1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,960 Should we get going then? >> Yes, please go ahead. And let me just 2 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:13,920 say and I I'll mention it once we start recording. Uh director Veette is not 3 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:20,080 available uh and able to meet make our meeting today. So she apologizes but uh 4 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:25,359 we have uh Michael Jenko will be handling the technical aspects of the 5 00:00:22,240 --> 00:00:29,039 meeting and uh we'll go ahead. So Jeff, if you want to uh begin, I think we're 6 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:32,880 ready. >> Okay. 7 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:37,360 Thank you. Uh welcome to everybody and and we'll call the meeting to order. Um 8 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:42,640 beginning with consideration and approval of the minutes from last 9 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:46,760 meeting, April 8th. Uh can I get uh someone to approve those for us? 10 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:56,239 » And I'll second. >> Okay. Minutes have been approved. 11 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:59,600 » Do we have anyone from Go ahead, Jeff. All in favor? Sorry. Yeah. Thank you. 12 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:03,680 All in favor? I 13 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:08,000 » Okay, thank you. Um, anyone here from the 14 00:01:06,320 --> 00:01:11,320 public that would like to make comment at this point? 15 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:24,960 Okay. Um, so we'll move on to our division section for reports and uh, 16 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:28,159 acting director Justin Barney will will allow you to go ahead and start with our 17 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:33,759 director's report. Yes, thank you. 18 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:38,799 Again, as I mentioned, uh, Director Veette is is unavailable. She apologizes 19 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:45,600 for not being able to attend the meeting and has asked me to serve as acting 20 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:53,920 director for the meeting today. Uh, she had one item to u remind the 21 00:01:49,840 --> 00:02:02,159 commissioners and that was the OPMA training. she sent out a a an email 22 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:06,479 about that and just reminded um us that that training is available and and we 23 00:02:04,799 --> 00:02:12,400 should go ahead and participate in that. If you have any questions, maybe send 24 00:02:09,039 --> 00:02:20,560 drop her an email or check with me and we can we can help you with that. 25 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:27,280 And um I have a a very brief update, but I'll save that for the uh section for 26 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:35,120 for me when uh I get to speak a little bit later. So other than that, I I think 27 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:40,400 it may be a quicker meeting uh today and turn the time back over to you, Jeff. 28 00:02:37,599 --> 00:02:44,319 » Thank you. Uh we'll turn the time over to Laurel for for our licensing and 29 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:49,519 education uh portion of our meeting here. 30 00:02:46,239 --> 00:02:54,720 » Hi. Thanks. Uh good morning everyone. I'm earlier than normal, so I'm like 31 00:02:52,239 --> 00:03:00,160 ready to go. Uh we just have a few things for you. We have our um our 32 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:04,319 pre-licicensing transition update. So we moved from 15 hours to 5 hours. I 33 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:09,760 reported on that last time we met, but we were kind of in the middle of that. 34 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:13,440 But it is uh up and running and we had a few people that were already taking the 35 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:19,519 15 hours. So we just made an exception for them. They reported it to us 36 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:23,680 and then we reported it to the NMLS like normal. But other than that, other than 37 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:29,040 those few people, this has like been super smooth. Thanks to Mike Page, 38 00:03:26,879 --> 00:03:33,680 thanks to the NMLS, um we have the credit reporting going 39 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:38,640 right through the NMLS. So, we've taken us out of the loop and it is Mike Page 40 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:45,599 reported this morning. It's going like gang busters. So, we have uh we have 41 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:54,000 some good traction with that. And on our stats uh from December 25, we kind of 42 00:03:51,200 --> 00:04:00,560 peaked and then because that's when you were new. Um 43 00:03:57,519 --> 00:04:07,040 sorry, my screens are kind of goofed up. Uh then it kind of recovered and then 44 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:13,680 from January to June, mortgage lending is looking good for lensure. They're 45 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:20,079 just like rebounding up up. So we're at a high a 12-month high for MLOS's. Our 46 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:25,199 PLMs are fairly flat, but that I think is stable. So looks good. Is there more 47 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:29,759 mortgage business out there? That's what I'm wondering. 48 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:32,479 » Not a ton. the commission [laughter] >> looking good in the mortgage robe. I was 49 00:04:31,199 --> 00:04:36,040 like, >> "Yeah, 50 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:36,040 » well, 51 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:44,080 » you kind of can't hear you, Laurel. >> Uh oh. 52 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:47,199 » If you're talking, it's not muted, but it was like kind of 53 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:49,120 » Try again." >> Uh, let's see. 54 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:52,639 » Yeah, I can We can >> We can hear you now. 55 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:57,040 » Yeah, >> that was weird. 56 00:04:54,560 --> 00:05:04,320 » I do have a fan running. Maybe that's upsetting the system, but uh so I'm 57 00:05:01,280 --> 00:05:08,000 sorry that it's not going gang buster for you. 58 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:11,759 People are licensing, so it's hopeful. We're always hopeful at the division 59 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:17,199 that things will pick up and everyone can make their uh ends meet at the 60 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:21,199 minimum and then exceed at the rest. And unless you have questions for me, that's 61 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:24,639 all I have for you. >> Hey Laurel, good job on the uh 62 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:29,600 enforcements, the complaints, and the cases. You guys are doing great on that. 63 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:33,440 » That's Bren Bren's going to talk about that. That's herment, right? 64 00:05:31,759 --> 00:05:37,680 » I'm just doing licensing. I'll take credit for it if you want, but 65 00:05:35,199 --> 00:05:40,479 » Well, it's not really my thing. >> Whoever did the spreadsheet, good job. 66 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:43,720 We're excited about it. >> Yay. Yay. 67 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:49,240 » Uh well, any other questions for Laurel? 68 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:56,560 » Okay. Well, if not, then uh >> you're back on, Justin. 69 00:05:53,680 --> 00:06:04,400 » Okay. Thank you. Uh as the commission will recall, we have uh a amended the 70 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:10,639 administrative rule uh that has to do with the mortgage loan originator 71 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:15,759 licensure. So the uh we used to have the highest I believe 72 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:21,600 it was the highest pre-licicensing education required in the in the country 73 00:06:19,280 --> 00:06:27,360 and we've reduced that from 15 hours to five hours. We do think that there are 74 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:32,400 some specific items that that should be uh covered uh prior to licensing and we 75 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:37,919 still have that course, but it's a five-hour course that was announced last 76 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:44,800 time. Just a reminder that that is uh in place now. I might ask Laurel or uh Mike 77 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:51,440 Paige, are we getting any feedback on that? any any uh response from licences 78 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:55,919 about the lower time requirement to do the 79 00:06:53,280 --> 00:07:02,240 pre-licicensing education? >> Um the only thing that I've been 80 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:07,680 receiving um as far as I've I've not had any negative uh feedback in regards 81 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:12,479 people seem to be a lot more receptive to the now the new 5 hour. That is what 82 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:18,080 I've been running into is a lot of times um applicants will 83 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:21,840 uh have outstanding license requests that have been been there for se several 84 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:28,080 months but haven't received any education from them. And so with the 85 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:32,479 implementation of the new 5-h hour um we're still accepting the 15-hour course 86 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:38,560 requirement if they still if they've taken it prior to the May 1st deadline. 87 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:44,000 Um I'm not sure how long we want to continue to accept that as as time goes 88 00:07:40,639 --> 00:07:48,000 on. You know, say sometime later in the year if we want to draw a deadline in 89 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:53,599 terms of that and said no, it's it's been enough time. The new 5 hours been 90 00:07:50,720 --> 00:08:00,560 implemented that needs to be the course of action now. But um I'm only getting a 91 00:07:57,919 --> 00:08:04,639 few, you know, far in between folks that uh 92 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:08,560 they signed up for the course, but they never took or they never completed the 93 00:08:06,319 --> 00:08:12,000 course until after May 1st. And so that's where it's kind of throwing a 94 00:08:09,759 --> 00:08:17,360 wrench into things. And so I have to kind of go one by one and make a list of 95 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:24,960 people to send to the animal list for him for them to manually bank the those 96 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:28,400 hours for them. But it's uh it's kind of it's dying off a little bit. There's, 97 00:08:26,639 --> 00:08:34,719 you know, ones and twos every once in a while, but I haven't had any um 98 00:08:32,159 --> 00:08:39,519 issues regarding that uh with people or the NMLS. The NLS has been really uh 99 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:45,920 helpful, especially Jennifer Eskina, who's a the education and licensing uh 100 00:08:43,279 --> 00:08:52,000 person with NLS that she's been fantastic. She uploads the the education 101 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:57,440 within a day or two and uh when I'm able to process lo the applications, it's 102 00:08:54,880 --> 00:09:01,200 been pretty straightforward. >> And I can add a little bit to that. Uh 103 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:05,440 we just finished out our caravan yesterday in Spanish Fork and every time 104 00:09:03,279 --> 00:09:10,399 I announce, you know, that this is in play, I get hands up in the air, hooray, 105 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:15,440 from mortgage people. So, they reacted kind of like uh the commission did when 106 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:19,839 I first kind of brainchilded this. And uh everyone loves this change. And we 107 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:26,160 honestly didn't have enough content for 15 hours. So uh putting that down into 108 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:31,680 the five hours makes it dense and um easier and just more accommodating for 109 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:35,920 anyone that wants to come uh do the mortgage thing in Utah. So 110 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:40,640 we're grateful for your support initially because that was the first 111 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:44,080 feel and then yeah caravan it's like cheers silent cheers with hands up in 112 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:49,760 the air. So, >> I'm sure with the uh NMLS conference 113 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:54,399 next year, um I'll probably get a lot of high fives and everything like that from 114 00:09:51,519 --> 00:10:02,080 folks. So, um I can report back on when when that happens, but I I suspect that 115 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:07,519 um it it'll continue to grow and uh more people will be uh coming to our state 116 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:13,200 for that. So, >> good. And Mike, as I understand it, the 117 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:18,880 the one of the real advantages is now that you don't have to manually input 118 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:21,120 those hours. They can be uh banked automatically through the NMLS. Is that 119 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:24,399 right? >> Right. Yeah. We're we're finally uh 120 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:32,959 catching up with the rest of the country. Um, so it, yeah, I it's saving 121 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:38,399 me time uh to have to reach out and and ask for these certificates that obvious 122 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:44,720 that we should have not had to be doing years ago. But um, so yeah, it I it's 123 00:10:42,399 --> 00:10:48,720 cutting my processing time by about half. 124 00:10:46,399 --> 00:10:54,959 » That's good news. >> That's great. 125 00:10:51,440 --> 00:11:01,160 Well, that is uh the extent of my report to the commission and I'm happy to 126 00:10:56,640 --> 00:11:01,160 answer any questions if you have them. 127 00:11:02,959 --> 00:11:07,680 » Okay, thank you [clears throat] for your time. 128 00:11:05,839 --> 00:11:12,720 » Thank you Justin. Thank you Laurel and also Mike. Appreciate you guys. Um 129 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:16,640 enforcement Brenn with us. >> Yes, thank you so much. 130 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:21,279 » Thank you. Our our case management uh has remained highly stable and efficient 131 00:11:18,959 --> 00:11:27,519 over the last quarter. We maintain a 100% clearance rate perfectly balancing 132 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:33,839 the incoming case load of 19 complaints by um also closing 19 complaints over 133 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:39,120 that period. Uh which is fantastic. Um currently the division is managing a 134 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:44,399 healthy inventory of 20 open complaints with only two requiring escalation to 135 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:49,120 pending legal action. Is there any uh stats questions before 136 00:11:47,279 --> 00:11:52,959 moving on? >> Hey Bren, great job. 137 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:56,320 » Hey, thank you. >> Yes, we're 138 00:11:54,399 --> 00:12:01,120 » on those legal actions. Are these stipulations or are they coming up for 139 00:11:58,560 --> 00:12:06,399 hearings or is just not determined yet? >> So, those are technically pending. Um, 140 00:12:04,399 --> 00:12:11,120 we haven't had >> that mapped out quite yet. 141 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:16,639 » Okay. Okay. We do have one uh stipulation to present 142 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:21,360 to you today if there's no more enforcement questions. 143 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:26,800 » Okay. Fantastic. I'd like to turn the time over to Justin uh to present that 144 00:12:23,680 --> 00:12:30,480 stipulation. Thank you. >> Good morning, commissioners. I would 145 00:12:28,399 --> 00:12:39,480 like to present a proposed stipulation in order regarding White Glass Lending 146 00:12:33,680 --> 00:12:39,480 LLC. This is docket number RE-2026-048. 147 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:49,279 Division case number is 142309 for your consideration. 148 00:12:47,279 --> 00:12:54,000 This investigation originated from a consumer complaint filed with the 149 00:12:50,800 --> 00:13:01,240 division in March 2023. The complaint alleged that the their 150 00:12:56,079 --> 00:13:01,240 property was encumbered by a 865. 151 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:05,839 » Go ahead. 152 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:11,360 I think that was just some feedback. >> Yeah, we just had that go. 153 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:14,360 » Sorry. So, uh, it was encumbered by an $865,723 154 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:22,399 loan issued by White Glass Lending, which was secured using documents forged 155 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:27,360 by a third-party title agent. The consumer reported that White Glass 156 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:32,320 Lending refused to remove the allegedly void trust deed from the property's 157 00:13:29,519 --> 00:13:36,560 title in a timely manner, which prevented the homeowners from selling 158 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:42,399 the property. The division's investigation uncovered the respondent's 159 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:47,760 licensing status had expired January 1, 2022. However, the company continued to 160 00:13:45,519 --> 00:13:53,519 engage in residential mortgage loan activities for approximately 23 months 161 00:13:50,560 --> 00:13:58,240 while their license was expired. The respondent obtained a valid license 162 00:13:55,279 --> 00:14:02,240 again on December 8th, 2023. During the interview, the respondent 163 00:13:59,920 --> 00:14:08,639 cited that the gap in lensure was due to an administrative oversight rather than 164 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:15,240 a willful attempt to circumvent the law. The unlicensed activity is a violation 165 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:15,240 of Utah code 61-2C-201 166 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:24,000 which requires lensure to transact the business of residential mortgage loans. 167 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:30,000 To resolve the matter, the respondent alongside their legal counsel has agreed 168 00:14:26,639 --> 00:14:34,079 to a $5,000 civil penalty and the respondent acknowledges that this action 169 00:14:32,399 --> 00:14:38,880 will be published in the division's quarterly newsletter and shared with 170 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:43,079 other agencies. Does the commission have any questions? 171 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:48,959 » Did they I mean, did they ever end up removing the lean like they were 172 00:14:46,399 --> 00:14:54,000 supposed to? Just out of curiosity. >> The lean was removed. Yes. 173 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:57,440 And that came from a title company or was it from the 174 00:14:56,320 --> 00:15:04,160 borrower? >> So the borrower owned the title company 175 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:09,959 from uh what we've seen in the news. So he used that title agency to submit 176 00:15:06,959 --> 00:15:09,959 documentation. 177 00:15:12,399 --> 00:15:21,199 » Okay. >> Dustin did there was um criminal action 178 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:24,720 taken in that case. Is that right? >> I believe from this 179 00:15:22,399 --> 00:15:30,800 » that doesn't affect this particular matter. But so that that was why White 180 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:36,000 Glass got drawn into that there was a a criminal conduct and a criminal case 181 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:42,000 that that went forward. But uh we're just addressing the issues of the lency 182 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:46,720 at this in this stipulation. >> Is there any status on their license 183 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:52,639 itself? I mean, was it ever it was not we're not looking at putting it 184 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:56,320 suspending it or or anything other than that, right? 185 00:15:54,000 --> 00:16:01,040 » All of the individual loan officers were still licensed. It was just a company 186 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:04,040 license that had lapsed. >> Okay. 187 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:16,959 » Okay. And that $5,000 penalty, is that what statutory allowed statute allows or 188 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:20,160 what? How did we determine that? >> That would have been the maximum uh that 189 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:23,160 they allowed. >> Okay. 190 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:36,320 I don't I don't have any other questions. 191 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:41,199 » I don't have any questions on it. >> None here either. 192 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:48,800 Okay. >> Thank you, Justin. Thank you, Bren. 193 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:54,000 » Um, in this matter, we'll we'll need to, uh, go into executive session. And so, 194 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:59,120 uh, if we could make arrangements for that. 195 00:16:55,759 --> 00:17:02,560 » So, sorry, this is Jennifer. I'm with um, I think that the meeting started 196 00:17:00,959 --> 00:17:09,039 early. We joined at 8 o'clock, but it looks like we missed the public comment 197 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:13,919 portion already. Did that already occur? >> You were here when they asked for it, 198 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:21,120 but you must have missed it. Is this Yeah, we started right at 9. 199 00:17:17,439 --> 00:17:25,600 » Yeah. Um I joined right at 9:00. I don't I guess I missed it. I mean, is it 200 00:17:23,360 --> 00:17:30,720 possible for us to address some public comments about the PLM issues that have 201 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:33,679 been circulating? >> I think that's further in the agenda, 202 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:36,320 isn't it, Jeff? >> I don't see it in the agenda. That's 203 00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:42,720 what I was about. >> It was for public comment. Uh, Chair 204 00:17:39,120 --> 00:17:46,960 Flynn, if you want to since uh she was here and and wants to address that, if 205 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:49,919 you want to reopen public comment for this matter, I think you can do that. 206 00:17:48,559 --> 00:17:54,000 That's up to you. >> Okay. Yeah. Let's go ahead and open 207 00:17:51,919 --> 00:18:00,000 reopen public comment uh for Jennifer and and for for Tula Law uh to discuss 208 00:17:57,919 --> 00:18:05,600 your matter. >> Thank you. Um hopefully I think that the 209 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:09,120 uh memo was circulated, our final memo and this is based on our October 210 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:13,200 meeting. So I wanted to thank you guys for you know that thoughtful discussion 211 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:17,280 back in October. Uh we took your concerns seriously. We revised our 212 00:18:15,679 --> 00:18:21,360 proposal um to specifically address some of the 213 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:25,919 issues that were raised. Um hopefully you guys had a chance to 214 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:30,640 review it and um you know just to reiterate we're not here asking the 215 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:36,720 commission to reduce standards for the PLM uh licensing requirements. Um we're 216 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:42,880 just asking for a way to recognize the equivalent experience portion. 217 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:48,000 So our revised proposal did include you know a business purpose only maybe 218 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:53,039 designation or alternative documentation requirements for business purpose 219 00:18:49,679 --> 00:18:58,400 lenders perhaps a certification or some addistation under penalty of perjury 220 00:18:55,600 --> 00:19:01,919 prohibiting consumer lending um I mean generally the issue isn't that 221 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:07,440 these applicants don't have the experience you know they have it's it's 222 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:11,360 the issue is of you know the current verification mechanism it doesn't recogn 223 00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:15,760 recognize the experience that these lenders, these business purpose 224 00:19:12,799 --> 00:19:19,280 commercial lenders do have, right? So, we're not, you know, we're not asking 225 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:23,679 you guys to reduce any experience experience requirements. We're asking 226 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:27,440 you guys to recognize perhaps an equivalent experience using some sort of 227 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:32,320 documentation um that's appropriate for business 228 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:36,720 purpose lending. Um I I think that gen generally there's a regulatory mismatch, 229 00:19:35,360 --> 00:19:43,120 you know, between what the current experience verification method um is and 230 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:49,440 the reality of business purpose lending. So, you know, the Utah code does um 231 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:53,600 allow for uh the the commission to exercise discretion. 232 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:59,200 Um, and so we're hoping to maybe work with you guys to identify acceptable 233 00:19:55,679 --> 00:20:04,000 forms of documentary evidence, you know, um, and we're happy to work with, you 234 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:08,720 know, whatever document standards you guys believe is appropriate. Maybe loan 235 00:20:06,799 --> 00:20:13,039 tapes, loan files, you know, recorded deeds of trust. 236 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:16,240 Um, anything, you know, if you guys have 237 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:23,039 suggestions, we're happy to, you know, work through that. Um, did you guys have 238 00:20:19,360 --> 00:20:28,080 any questions or comments based on our memo? 239 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:31,440 » And if maybe you can address this for me because I was reading through it, but I 240 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:34,799 didn't get through the whole thing. The question I think the concern that I've 241 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:41,440 always had is you're bringing in more investors into Utah that then start 242 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:45,039 taking the single family homes or doing these things for investment purposes and 243 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:51,600 we already have a shortage of homes and things like that for regular people. So 244 00:20:49,360 --> 00:20:57,600 what like what types of property are they trying to 245 00:20:54,000 --> 00:21:02,720 do loans on here? What is their goal? it would be to um you know like rehab um 246 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:08,799 one to fours right because that's the the rule the statutes in Utah require 247 00:21:06,159 --> 00:21:13,840 licensing for one to fours um but these would be investment properties um 248 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:17,039 vacation rentals things like that um not owneroccupied 249 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:22,480 these wouldn't be the borrowers would not be you know the ones that are using 250 00:21:19,120 --> 00:21:28,000 these to um renovate their own kitchen or something like that it's it's for 251 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:31,000 investment purposes business purposes Okay. 252 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:39,919 » Well, the focus on fix and flip the SCR investment property sounds like one to 253 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:42,919 four consumer. >> Yeah. 254 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:49,919 » Um, now Mike is is Mike still on. Mike Page. 255 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:53,039 » Yeah, I'm here. >> Is this something that could even Can 256 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:58,640 they can you regulate that? I mean, how do you know or determine, 257 00:21:56,320 --> 00:22:02,080 you know, if uh the Well, I guess it's the experience. You still open it up and 258 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:06,320 they'd still become a PLM. They'd still receive they could do anything. How 259 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:11,200 could you how can you regulate a business purpose versus somebody that's 260 00:22:08,159 --> 00:22:16,799 not doing it? So, if I'm doing business, I'm also doing investments, DSCR loans. 261 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:20,559 I'm doing fix and flips and I I've I've complied to everything. But then you got 262 00:22:19,039 --> 00:22:24,880 somebody else that comes in that's kind of we've loosened up or had some other 263 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:28,240 way to regulate their experience and what they're doing. They're doing the 264 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:32,880 exact same thing other than they're not doing the residential side of things. 265 00:22:31,120 --> 00:22:39,760 How do you is that even possible to regulate something like that? 266 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:48,320 Uh it's very >> it's very difficult um for me to ve to 267 00:22:43,919 --> 00:22:54,960 be able to uh verify something uh like Miss Young is is talking about um where 268 00:22:52,000 --> 00:23:01,120 um it's almost this this if you want to call it a a niche 269 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:08,720 type of market that came about when COVID happened where um people were shut 270 00:23:05,039 --> 00:23:15,840 up and you know not able to conduct business on a regular basis. And so this 271 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:22,000 thing of um business purpose lending or or what have you meaning uh became a par 272 00:23:19,039 --> 00:23:26,320 became a new a new thing where people would would start to invest in 273 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:34,799 residential properties to for fix and flips for renovation for uh commercial 274 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:40,159 lending for that type of a thing. And so what I review and what I what I coming 275 00:23:37,679 --> 00:23:46,720 from my back background in in licensing here um we've never experienced anything 276 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:53,440 like this before. It's a new it's it's almost like a new market that that came 277 00:23:49,679 --> 00:23:59,360 about somebody's idea to you know make money quick and easy type of a thing and 278 00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:06,480 to I don't want to say circumvent the rule or to get around normal mortgage 279 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:10,640 origination where um it's they they use the they go under the 280 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:14,799 name of business purpose type of thing and so a lot of these business purpose 281 00:24:12,559 --> 00:24:21,840 loans that I try to that that I need to verify are not recorded 282 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:26,000 or or submitted through the NMLS and the HUD reports. And so it's impossible for 283 00:24:23,679 --> 00:24:30,400 me to review anything like that. And so would be basically 284 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:35,120 deny these deny it because it's it's there's nothing I can review or verify 285 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:40,320 because it's a because it's a commercial. A lot of these are 286 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:45,960 commercial in in in in um 287 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,960 » what I want to say 288 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:54,480 in in view in view of point it's the DR doesn't regulate commercial the 289 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:59,679 commercial side of that we we regulate first lane residential owner occupied 290 00:24:57,039 --> 00:25:06,000 one to four family unit closed end first uh closed end loans a lot of the I wrote 291 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:11,520 a uh a newsletter article a few months back regarding just such of 292 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:15,279 just such a things because we've been we were getting inundated with new lending 293 00:25:13,039 --> 00:25:21,520 manager applicants that only did this type of of lending. Well, they didn't 294 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:26,080 have they they in terms of the lending pipeline that they are supposed to 295 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:31,039 provide me so that I can verify these none of these were available for me to 296 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:35,919 look at. So they have to be able to provide me evidence, physical evidence 297 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:40,960 of the actual loan application to prove that they are the loan originator on 298 00:25:38,159 --> 00:25:48,720 from start to finish uh and they are the final signer on the 103 document. And so 299 00:25:46,799 --> 00:25:54,400 that's where the the difficulty is and for me to kind of kind of verify this 300 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:58,480 and um where it's 301 00:25:56,799 --> 00:26:03,120 that's the only way I can ver that's the only way I can see anything happening is 302 00:26:01,039 --> 00:26:09,520 because if it's a business purpose loan, if it is only on the 1 to4 family unit 303 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:13,760 and it is a closed end loan but it's a non-owner occupied, 304 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:19,279 those don't get reported to the NMLS. us. So that's where the problem is. 305 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:23,520 » That's exactly right. So we're trying to, you know, hopefully work with you 306 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:27,200 guys to figure out an alternative way to show that experience because it's not 307 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:31,520 that they don't these applicants don't have the experience. You know, it's just 308 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:35,360 that the current verification mechanism doesn't recognize the experience that 309 00:26:32,799 --> 00:26:41,919 they already have. And so our proposal was to, you know, maybe come up with a 310 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:47,039 special designation or require separate types of documentation or specific list 311 00:26:43,919 --> 00:26:50,480 of documents. What, you know, we're open to working with you guys to see what 312 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:54,320 you're comfortable with in accepting the equivalent experience. Um, and that's 313 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:58,960 kind of the >> Well, the only the only thing that I 314 00:26:56,080 --> 00:27:03,919 will accept. um we don't there's not really an an equivalency that we can 315 00:27:01,039 --> 00:27:09,600 that I can accept other than I need the actual document. So I've had other 316 00:27:06,159 --> 00:27:14,000 people for example that they work for a financial institution like a bank or 317 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:17,520 credit union. Those those do not report to the NLS. Those don't report to HUD or 318 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:22,720 anything like that. So I need to actually either I need the physical loan 319 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:25,039 application. So I need 45 loan applications 320 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:28,240 basically. >> Okay. 321 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:35,200 um is the only way that I have is the only way I can do it or in lie of that I 322 00:27:30,799 --> 00:27:41,120 can accept uh deeds of trust uh is the only other uh option that I will accept 323 00:27:38,159 --> 00:27:46,480 regarding verif regarding proof of origination 324 00:27:43,919 --> 00:27:51,840 » um and then what happens if these um deeds of trust and applications don't 325 00:27:49,039 --> 00:27:55,200 have an individual but has a company lender list 326 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:59,600 » they will not qualify based on our rule And they have to bas it has to be 327 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:03,520 according to our will they have to be if it's a company that that's done as or if 328 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:08,640 they're part of a team or if they're part of a me if they supervise something 329 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:15,120 or part of a team or or something like that that doesn't fall under our rule of 330 00:28:11,360 --> 00:28:21,279 a general um origination application that has to be those that's the thing 331 00:28:17,039 --> 00:28:26,159 that I don't know I don't I don't uh see a way a way around of that 332 00:28:24,159 --> 00:28:31,600 because we've We've already have three options available already. Um, each of 333 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:38,399 them require personal loan origination anywhere from 15 to 45. Um, and as far 334 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:44,159 as I made an exception in talking with my supervisors, my director regarding 335 00:28:41,279 --> 00:28:50,159 okay, I can't verify they don't have the that's not listing in the NMLS. What 336 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:54,799 else can I do? And so by providing the actual documents and it has to be that 337 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:58,480 individual that signed the 103. The company can't do it. It has to be that 338 00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:02,000 individual because they're it's the individual that's applying for the 339 00:29:00,159 --> 00:29:07,600 license, not the company. >> Hey Jennifer, um what what stops your I 340 00:29:05,919 --> 00:29:11,360 mean I know everybody wants to not have middlemen or whatever, but what stops 341 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:17,200 your people with teaming up with a lender in Utah in order to accomplish 342 00:29:15,039 --> 00:29:23,840 these things? like why do they have their own PLM when it's as hard as it is 343 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:29,440 to change that specific rule? >> Yeah, because for the company to get 344 00:29:25,679 --> 00:29:34,799 licensed, the PLM has to be um a unique um uniquely sponsored by the company. 345 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:39,200 So, they can't just use another PLM. >> Um but if they I guess they'd have to be 346 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:41,840 employed by the companies out here. Okay. I'm just trying to think of 347 00:29:41,620 --> 00:29:46,205 [snorts] >> well I know there's a uh we've been 348 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:50,720 doing with another company [clears throat] if you're familiar with 349 00:29:47,279 --> 00:29:56,000 who Lending Tree is. So Lending Tree they are pretty much 350 00:29:53,600 --> 00:30:00,000 » they are they are licensed with our state. I'm dealing with an issue with 351 00:29:58,559 --> 00:30:04,720 them right now with the same type of a thing where they can't get a lending 352 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:08,080 manager because our rule requires this type of a thing. But Lending Tree is 353 00:30:06,799 --> 00:30:12,159 different in that they are a lead generation type of company where they 354 00:30:09,919 --> 00:30:17,039 will basically uh take applications and or they'll 355 00:30:14,559 --> 00:30:21,840 receive they'll receive notifications or however they do it and they basically 356 00:30:19,039 --> 00:30:27,440 farm out these loans to licensed companies to complete the origination 357 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:32,159 and then that person that takes the referral or whatever get a a kickback or 358 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:38,606 a fee or a or something like that as far as payment that in that regard. But um 359 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:44,240 I'm not sure [sighs] 360 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:51,440 like like Allison was saying um I'm not sure 361 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:54,640 how how Fortra can then can't just implement something in that regard if 362 00:30:53,440 --> 00:31:01,600 they want to get if they want to do loans with the state if they or or uh 363 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:05,679 hire somebody off of the street or from another company to become the PLM. 364 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:12,000 that already has a license or can obtain that license outside of your company, 365 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:15,200 » right? But the problem still is the same, right? The people that they're 366 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:21,919 looking for who are, you know, well-versed in business purpose lending 367 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:28,320 don't have the requirements needed to to satisfy the the licensed experience that 368 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:33,360 Utah currently needs. So, I mean, we've tried all avenues and this is just we're 369 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:39,200 we're stuck, right? And so that's why we're asking for you guys to help us um 370 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:44,240 figure out a solution, maybe, you know, come up with some sort of equivalent 371 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:47,840 experience that you would approve of. Mike, weren't you just kind of 372 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:53,120 suggesting like that they work with somebody in Utah that has the ability to 373 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:56,399 get their PLM >> because I I don't know if the rules in 374 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:59,200 Utah that if they have to have a physical location here. I think that's 375 00:31:58,559 --> 00:32:03,519 no >> no requirement to be, you know, 376 00:32:01,519 --> 00:32:07,039 physically in Utah. The requirement is to show the licensed experience and 377 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:10,720 that's just >> a lot of loan officers in Utah that 378 00:32:09,039 --> 00:32:14,960 could show that that you might be able to partner with, 379 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:18,960 » right? but they don't have the business purpose experience, right? Because if 380 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:22,559 they are able to meet the the the lending manager experience requirements, 381 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:25,679 it means that they're licensed as an MLO doing consumer lending because on the 382 00:32:24,559 --> 00:32:30,559 business purpose side, you don't need that. And consumer lending is very very 383 00:32:27,919 --> 00:32:34,240 different from business purpose lending. >> Okay. [snorts] So, I guess that's where 384 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:39,200 I'm confused because it's like I can do a business purpose loan. 385 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:42,559 I guess it's not I do have options for doing it in a business name rather than 386 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:46,159 an individual, but most people that when they're buying an investment property, 387 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:52,480 it's an individual, then they move it to the LLC or whatever. The obstacle that 388 00:32:49,519 --> 00:32:56,000 you're running up against is that it's it's going to be a company and not 389 00:32:54,399 --> 00:33:01,519 an individual that wants to do these loans. Is that is that the problem? 390 00:32:59,039 --> 00:33:05,039 » Um, it's a company that's trying to get the license, right? But the difference 391 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:09,760 between the type of lending activity that business purpose lending companies 392 00:33:07,279 --> 00:33:14,480 do versus consumer purpose lending companies is that the borrowers that 393 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:19,039 they interact with um for business purpose it is not they're not using the 394 00:33:17,039 --> 00:33:23,279 loan proceeds for their personal home, household or family purposes. It's for 395 00:33:21,279 --> 00:33:26,480 investment purposes, right? And so consumer lending is you're dealing with 396 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:32,000 borrowers who are using these loan proceeds specifically for personal 397 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:38,559 family or household purposes. So the the nature of the loan itself is different 398 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:43,360 and business purpose across the board in other states don't require MLO licensing 399 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:50,799 and that is where we're hung up because Utah's PLM license does require you know 400 00:33:47,919 --> 00:33:56,000 the individual to show MLO experience uh MLO being listed on the HUD or MCRS 401 00:33:54,399 --> 00:33:59,360 being reported which is not required for business purpose lending. It's kind of 402 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:03,840 like catch 22 and we don't know how to show that. And so we're asking if you 403 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:10,159 know the commission does have you know the code allows the commission to 404 00:34:07,919 --> 00:34:16,240 you know have a you know discretion to approve equivalent experience. And so 405 00:34:13,599 --> 00:34:20,560 our proposal is to, you know, we gave a couple of options and we're hoping to 406 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:24,720 work with you guys to come up with something at your discretion, what is 407 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:29,359 acceptable for you guys to show the equivalent experience needed in order 408 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:33,040 for these individuals to get their PLM license. And Mike, the big issue that 409 00:34:31,599 --> 00:34:38,560 you're running up against is that there's no real record of these loans 410 00:34:35,599 --> 00:34:42,720 besides like a a deed trust or an application to show that they have that 411 00:34:41,599 --> 00:34:46,320 experience, >> right? Because it's the company that's 412 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:47,760 signing off on the loan, not an individual. 413 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:52,399 » Yeah. >> I mean, we can go further and dig into 414 00:34:49,599 --> 00:34:56,639 that, right? I mean, if if the the docs show the company, um perhaps there's, 415 00:34:54,639 --> 00:35:01,760 you know, I'm sure that companies can show who the originator is on these 416 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:06,160 loans. Um maybe some sort of internal I I don't know, records or something like 417 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:09,599 that. I mean, I don't have the answer, but I'm hoping to, you know, work with 418 00:35:07,599 --> 00:35:14,000 you guys and just kind of brainstorm and figure out something. 419 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:19,119 » But but Mike, does um does a PLM have to have the business purpose experience? I 420 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:22,079 mean because if if I've done a lot, you know, Allison or whoever, Jeff, 421 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:26,240 whatever. If we've done a lot of investment properties out there, done 422 00:35:23,839 --> 00:35:29,200 things and they become and they're no longer associated with any other 423 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:35,040 company. They're part of your company now with Forra or well or the name of 424 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:40,320 the whatever the uh company name will be. Could they not still be the PLM here 425 00:35:37,599 --> 00:35:44,960 in Utah and be working for your company at that time? 426 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:50,000 So, the lending company would need an individual to get their PLM license. And 427 00:35:48,240 --> 00:35:54,720 the problem is that to get the PLM license, you have to show specific 428 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:58,320 experience that is verified on either the HUD or on MCRS or something. And 429 00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:02,880 Mike's not able to verify that because they do business purpose loans and 430 00:35:59,920 --> 00:36:08,240 that's not on HUD, right? that that would be on maybe a loan dock set where 431 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:12,480 they have attestations from the borrowers that this is this is purpose 432 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:16,800 loans. Um I know that >> I think what Jeff's trying to get at is 433 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:22,320 like if you just have a regular loan officer in Utah that has the experience 434 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:26,640 to become a PLM, they can work with your folks. Like once they have that PLM, 435 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:32,240 there's nothing stopping them from going and doing an investment property loan. 436 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:35,920 So, like in some ways that's the simple solution where you have somebody in Utah 437 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:40,800 that has their PLM and then you do these loans. So, I I guess I'm I'm still 438 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:44,800 confused as to why it's a like why you guys can't do business here. Yes, you 439 00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:48,560 can't as a company get a PLM without showing that, but you can still do 440 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:52,960 business that way >> with without showing the experience, 441 00:36:51,359 --> 00:36:59,680 » right? Well, because they've already had the experience on a as a as a one to 442 00:36:55,440 --> 00:37:04,240 four unit lender for the PLM, but but now they're just stepping in working for 443 00:37:01,359 --> 00:37:08,640 your company as a PLM. They don't have they've already had, I would think, 444 00:37:05,839 --> 00:37:12,560 equivalent to any of these. >> They have equivalent experience, but not 445 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:18,400 the type of documentation that Mike needs to approve 446 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:24,079 them being a PLM. Is it correct to say, let's just say me, 447 00:37:21,839 --> 00:37:29,119 okay, I have I have experience. I do have my PLM, but like let's just say I'm 448 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:33,520 somebody who doesn't. And Jennifer comes to me and says, "Hey, we'd like to team 449 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:39,760 up, whatever. Can you go get your PLM?" I go, "Sure, I'll go get my PLM. Then I 450 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:43,920 can go do investment property loans." then you can be the PLM for you know my 451 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:48,160 lending company and then we'd be good to go and my company can apply and get the 452 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:52,320 mortgage entity license then we'd be set but in reality 453 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:57,040 » in reality that's impossible I mean for maybe four years now I've been advising 454 00:37:55,040 --> 00:38:00,640 my clients go out and find somebody who can show that they have the license 455 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:05,760 experience and these companies have been trying for years and they're still not 456 00:38:03,119 --> 00:38:09,520 able to find people who can show the experience that Mike needs because 457 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:13,839 they're not you know they're not listed on HUDs. They're not listed. They don't 458 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:18,960 have to do MCRS, right? Because they do business purpose loans. So, their 30 459 00:38:15,359 --> 00:38:23,760 years of experience is not um it's it's it's just not verifiable to Mike in what 460 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:28,880 he needs. And so, what I'm asking is for us to figure out a different equivalent 461 00:38:27,119 --> 00:38:34,880 method of showing that equivalent experience. Mike, am I I'm missing 462 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:38,400 something here because like what what would stop them from teaming up with 463 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:42,000 somebody in Utah that has their PLM or is willing to get their PLM and do what 464 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:45,520 they want to do? >> Absolutely nothing, right? But they 465 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:49,119 can't get their PLM because they don't have the equivalent experience to show. 466 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:55,119 » Well, any old loan officer here in Utah that has 15 under their belt or whatever 467 00:38:51,359 --> 00:38:57,760 the thing is can go get their PLM. >> I think what the is Could I just add 468 00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,400 this? >> Yeah, tell me. I'm I just want to 469 00:38:59,119 --> 00:39:03,280 understand because I'm trying to help you find something 470 00:39:01,599 --> 00:39:07,920 » and Mike can correct me if [laughter] I if I misstate this but I think what's 471 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:15,119 what's uh I'm hearing from you Jennifer is that the pool of candidates that your 472 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:23,359 client is willing to consider to be the PLM is a is a small group that is not 473 00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:29,680 involved in other types of lending. So in other words, the the uh pool of 474 00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:35,599 potential PLM is only the people that are currently 475 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:42,800 affiliated with your company. What Allison is saying is that if you expand 476 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:48,160 your pool, there are uh hundreds of potential PLMs that are either already 477 00:39:45,839 --> 00:39:54,400 licensed or uh have the required experience and and 478 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:59,440 affiliating with one of those people would allow you to meet the requirement. 479 00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:04,400 I think that's what what she's saying. >> Yes. And I hear that my so we're a law 480 00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:11,599 firm and we represent private lenders across the US. Um for you know at least 481 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:15,680 four years now my clients who want to operate in Utah and want to get that 482 00:40:13,359 --> 00:40:22,640 Utah mortgage entity license have been looking for originators who can qualify 483 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:27,680 for a the PLM license. But this just not possible because their originators are 484 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:31,680 business purpose originators. And when you do business purpose loans, you are 485 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:36,400 not going to have your, you know, license on the HUD or you don't have to 486 00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:40,960 report on MCRS. >> Please, please listen to me. So I I 487 00:40:38,720 --> 00:40:46,480 understand that part. >> The issue isn't that the originators who 488 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:52,320 are working for Fortra or one of your other clients can show that experience. 489 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:57,440 The issue is there are hundreds of other people who can do that. And instead of 490 00:40:55,599 --> 00:41:03,920 looking at the small pool that you already are affiliated with, 491 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:09,359 expand that and find somebody who can can meet those requirements and step 492 00:41:06,079 --> 00:41:12,800 into the company as the PLM because they already have the experience or they're 493 00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:15,359 willing to get it through another means. I think that's Allison, is that what you 494 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:18,880 were saying? >> Yeah, I'm just saying like I don't 495 00:41:18,319 --> 00:41:23,119 » I mean, >> but it's a separate pool. 496 00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:27,680 » It it doesn't matter. This is what I'm saying is there is nothing stopping me 497 00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:29,839 as a PLM from going out and doing an investment property loan. Period. The 498 00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:34,160 end. >> Yeah. 499 00:41:30,319 --> 00:41:39,119 » So, I don't I don't know why the company does like feels that they can't team up 500 00:41:37,119 --> 00:41:43,440 with somebody that's already in Utah or that is willing to go get their PLM so 501 00:41:41,599 --> 00:41:47,119 that you have that licensing so you can do the lending. That's where I can't 502 00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:51,839 figure out. >> Absolutely. They are trying to they 503 00:41:50,319 --> 00:41:56,800 » are they only looking for business purpose people only 504 00:41:54,640 --> 00:42:00,000 » but that's the company right that's the company you're that you're representing 505 00:41:58,720 --> 00:42:04,480 they they're looking for business purpose PLM right 506 00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:08,560 » all of our all of our lenders are business purpose lenders only right they 507 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:14,000 don't do consumer lending and so the originators that they're hire they're 508 00:42:10,240 --> 00:42:19,119 trying to hire would you know a consumer lending originator doesn't fit what 509 00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:23,599 they're looking for because first of all, some of them just want to stay in 510 00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:27,920 the consumer lending world, right? >> 50 ways to skin a cat and they can do 511 00:42:26,240 --> 00:42:33,040 business in Utah if they just team up with a PLM in Utah. 512 00:42:31,599 --> 00:42:37,760 » And honestly, you could probably say, "Hey, PLM, we're going to hire you for 513 00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:42,640 we're going to hire Allison for $100,000 a year and she's going to only focus on 514 00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:47,760 business purpose lending." But she may not even be originating. She may just be 515 00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:52,160 saying, "Hey, I'm here as a PLM company, come and start doing business under I'm 516 00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:58,640 I'm your PLM. I'm going to be able to uh represent and re uh the requirements for 517 00:42:55,280 --> 00:43:04,480 Utah as a PLM and now I'll be your PLM. I'll be hired by your client's company 518 00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:09,040 and now she's she can she doesn't have to do the business purpose lending, but 519 00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:13,280 she also has that experience because she's done hundreds of investment 520 00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:17,040 properties already. So it seems like they could they could use someone like 521 00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:20,079 her to already step and they wouldn't have to have that business purpose 522 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:24,079 experience >> and it sounds like a company wants to do 523 00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:28,240 that but or wants to do just the business purpose thing and get an 524 00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:32,240 exception so that they can have a PLM but I don't really 525 00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:38,319 » Yeah, I guess I don't see like why it has to be that way and why we need to 526 00:43:34,319 --> 00:43:42,800 change a rule when they just need to >> Yeah. I mean, my clients are having a 527 00:43:40,720 --> 00:43:47,119 hard time finding people who can actually who meet those requirements. I 528 00:43:45,359 --> 00:43:51,359 understand that you you know, there are probably a lot of originators out there 529 00:43:49,359 --> 00:43:55,680 who meet their experience requirement and can show it to get that license 530 00:43:53,920 --> 00:44:00,240 approved, but my clients cannot find them and it's, you know, they're they're 531 00:43:58,240 --> 00:44:05,440 trying. It's not for a lack of trying. And now we're, you know, years and years 532 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:08,240 and years in and their business in Utah has just stalled because they cannot get 533 00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:13,599 that license. they cannot find the person, they cannot, you know, I mean, 534 00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:19,040 we represent so many clients who want to go into Utah and maybe five of them have 535 00:44:16,319 --> 00:44:22,560 found somebody who was able to meet their experience requirements. And so 536 00:44:21,839 --> 00:44:27,119 now, >> yeah, 537 00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:31,760 » where we are is trying to propose maybe some sort of alternative 538 00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:36,240 equivalent experience to show you guys so that they can sit for that PLM 539 00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:42,480 license. I mean they have the experience you know you guys can audit um the the 540 00:44:40,319 --> 00:44:44,880 activity I don't know but it's not that they don't have the experience they can 541 00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:50,160 sit they sit there and they they can pass the exam they're knowledgeable it's 542 00:44:47,119 --> 00:44:54,480 just this experience requirement that they get stuck with because the method 543 00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:58,400 that you guys are requiring it does not fit the business purpose lending 544 00:44:56,079 --> 00:45:03,280 » and you're representing multiple lenders that want to do the same thing right so 545 00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:07,280 like each one of these like >> commission like each One of these would 546 00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:11,920 h I mean would have to find a way to team up with 547 00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:16,960 APLM or more. >> Yeah. No, I'm seeing I'm seeing the 548 00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:21,760 thing. I just I'm >> Yeah, 549 00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:27,839 » I guess I'm not just put point out that this has uh come up for a discussion 550 00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:33,040 just from the public comment period. We the commission is not able to take any 551 00:45:29,839 --> 00:45:41,119 action today and maybe the the process is um look at the uh the letter that you 552 00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:45,359 received and uh if if there's interest in in doing something or putting that on 553 00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:50,160 an agenda in the future. It's not on the agenda now so no action can be taken but 554 00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:56,000 it has been I think helpful to get the information. We appreciate 555 00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:59,200 Jennifer Young coming in and and making the case for clients. So 556 00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:03,760 » yeah, >> I think it's probably I mean it's up to 557 00:46:01,599 --> 00:46:08,000 you chair, but I'm not sure how much longer you want to spend on this public 558 00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:10,640 comment matter. >> I agree with you Justin. I go ahead 559 00:46:09,359 --> 00:46:13,839 Jeeoff. Do you have more? Hey, I just just one thing, Jennifer, I think you 560 00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:17,440 just take away. Um maybe just go back to your clients and say why, you know, 561 00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:22,079 could would you be willing to open it up to other PLMs without specifically and 562 00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:25,440 strictly business experience? >> Oh, I've done that. 563 00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:30,359 » Yeah. No, I've done that. I'm like, please just go find someone. I don't 564 00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:30,359 know who who 565 00:46:31,119 --> 00:46:39,440 » I even have I even have a list of every PLM licensed with the state of Utah. I 566 00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:42,160 can even email that direct list to you directly if you would like. But 567 00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:45,839 » um >> but those PLMs can only work for one 568 00:46:44,319 --> 00:46:49,760 company, right? Because that sponsorship from the company is unique. So they 569 00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:53,920 can't be a PLM for both companies. >> That is true. 570 00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:57,280 » And so once they're PLM for a company, they can't 571 00:46:54,720 --> 00:47:03,119 » it's not even just the uh PLMs that are already licensed. There are thousands of 572 00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:09,680 MLOs's that have the required experience and all they would need is to so it 573 00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:14,880 expands the pool. It's a huge pool. There seems like there should be a 574 00:47:12,079 --> 00:47:19,440 handful that would be willing to expand their business 575 00:47:16,720 --> 00:47:23,200 » uh into business purpose loans. It's just a matter of going through that list 576 00:47:21,119 --> 00:47:29,119 and contacting them and finding who might be willing to do that. 577 00:47:26,240 --> 00:47:33,440 » Yes. And that's my, you know, first piece of advice when I have a company 578 00:47:31,119 --> 00:47:37,440 wanting to get licensed in Utah, right? I say, 579 00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:44,560 » have they used that list? Apparently not at this point. Uh, why don't you get the 580 00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:49,280 list from Mike and uh and and see if one of the thousands that are on there might 581 00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:54,800 be willing to to branch out their business and become business purpose uh 582 00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:58,640 originators. So, would this be poaching originators? 583 00:47:57,040 --> 00:48:01,440 I don't want my clients to be poaching other originators. 584 00:48:00,079 --> 00:48:05,520 » That happens all the time. >> That happens all the time. 585 00:48:03,998 --> 00:48:10,560 [laughter] >> I've been here almost 12 years and I've 586 00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:12,319 given this list out dozens of times. So, it's not 587 00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:17,920 » there's not a day that doesn't go by where we are recruited by someone else. 588 00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:22,993 » Recruiting is like >> completely normal. I mean, if 589 00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:25,013 » everybody wants more money, so [laughter] 590 00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:30,079 it's just a matter of finding the right person. But I know I understand your 591 00:48:28,319 --> 00:48:35,839 frustration, Jennifer, and I appreciate and understand, you know, where you're 592 00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:40,960 coming from on this. So, um, just like I say, my from what we do, what I try and 593 00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:47,520 do, I try and be as open as possible to all my applicants that come in. That's 594 00:48:43,119 --> 00:48:52,800 why I offer have offered to um if they don't have loans that I can verify on 595 00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:59,440 the NMLS, you know, send me the files or send me the applications with that. But 596 00:48:55,599 --> 00:49:03,040 again, the the the the originator has to be the person that did the loan. It 597 00:49:01,359 --> 00:49:06,040 can't be signed off on by a company, unfortunately. 598 00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:10,880 » Well, I mean, obviously, a company is not going to be the one that's 599 00:49:09,359 --> 00:49:14,559 originating, right? They probably they have to have an actual individual doing 600 00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:19,119 the origination and the company's just listed. Is there something is there like 601 00:49:16,720 --> 00:49:23,280 an additional step that we can add to show you documentation wise that there 602 00:49:21,599 --> 00:49:28,079 was an individual that was associated with all of these loans? I mean I'm you 603 00:49:26,079 --> 00:49:31,359 know >> are you servicing your Jennifer? Are you 604 00:49:29,839 --> 00:49:35,119 servicing these loans? How how do you what process do you guys go through once 605 00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:39,440 the loan is completed? Where does it go? Is it being serviced by your own 606 00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:43,599 individual companies or >> I think some of them do service their 607 00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:47,280 own loans. Others use, you know, third party loan serer like an FCI or 608 00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:54,480 something. >> So nothing like a consumer company, 609 00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:55,920 Wells Fargo, any of those like places. Okay. 610 00:49:55,040 --> 00:50:00,240 » Yeah. >> Okay. 611 00:49:57,119 --> 00:50:04,240 » Okay. No. >> And Mike, the 612 00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:08,880 » the PLM does not have to continue to originate. They could just act as a PLM. 613 00:50:06,319 --> 00:50:12,559 They don't have to >> It's like a It's like a processing 614 00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:17,040 company. If they want to be a proc open a processing company with the state and 615 00:50:14,559 --> 00:50:21,599 have in-house processors that are paid via W2, they still need a lending 616 00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:27,040 manager, but that lending manager just acts as a supervisor. But again, they 617 00:50:24,559 --> 00:50:30,040 have to have a lending manager that has prerequis. 618 00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:34,640 » Okay, that's good. >> Hey, Jennifer, thanks for coming. We 619 00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:38,800 appreciate it. >> Yeah, thank you. 620 00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:41,680 » Um, thank you guys. So, I mean, we we would love to keep on working with you 621 00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:45,760 guys to maybe figure out whatever documentation or safeguards you guys 622 00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:50,880 believe are appropriate. Um, thank you for your time. And will you send me that 623 00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:55,839 list, Mike, of originators potentially? Um, and then would it be possible if we 624 00:50:53,599 --> 00:51:01,599 send you documentation and then kind of work through, you know, because I do 625 00:50:58,240 --> 00:51:08,240 have quite a number of applicants that are looking to get licensed in Utah and 626 00:51:04,079 --> 00:51:12,960 I want to figure out a way for them. >> Uh, yeah. Um, I would need to get with 627 00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:17,839 my people first to see, you know, what it is that we're we want to see on that, 628 00:51:15,119 --> 00:51:21,280 but I can certainly get that list to you uh today. 629 00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:23,839 » Yeah. Thank you. I'm happy to chat through, you know, whatever it is that 630 00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:27,119 you guys think you might need and we can, you know, go from there. 631 00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:33,200 » Okay. >> Do you have her email address, Mike? 632 00:51:29,599 --> 00:51:37,359 » I might, but if you want to, uh, you might have my email address. I'm not 633 00:51:34,559 --> 00:51:40,160 sure if you do or not. Do you >> just Mike pageutah? 634 00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:43,760 So, >> okay. If you want to just send me a 635 00:51:42,240 --> 00:51:48,640 short email and I'll respond back to that. 636 00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:53,599 » Okay. And then so just for my um my understanding, are we is this matter 637 00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:58,400 considered closed or are we still are you guys still open to kind of maybe 638 00:51:55,920 --> 00:52:03,400 working together in finding some sort of verification meth meth method that 639 00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:03,400 works? 640 00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:12,559 » I'm I'm not sure if we got that. >> We have discussed that 641 00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:16,160 » that I'm not sure. That's up to the commission. 642 00:52:14,079 --> 00:52:23,359 » Yeah. And also, Director Vead's not here today. Uh, so we can do that. Jennifer, 643 00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:31,200 please stay in touch still and and let's uh maybe this uh 644 00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:36,240 list and and searching out a potential PLM might might solve your problems. If 645 00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:43,040 not, let's uh re uh look at this down the road. 646 00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:47,440 » That sounds good. Thank you. And I will tell you that it's not been working, but 647 00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:49,680 I mean that's why we're here. But I appreciate it. 648 00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:50,880 » Appreciate your time. >> All right. 649 00:52:50,079 --> 00:52:54,119 » Thank you guys. >> Thank you. 650 00:52:54,640 --> 00:53:04,240 » Okay, let's uh move into our uh executive closed session for the matter 651 00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:12,960 of white glass lending if we could. Hey, so you'll need a a uh motion to 652 00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:17,599 uh enter an an executive session and and vote on that and then I have something 653 00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:22,960 that I can read as a prerequisite to entering that close session. 654 00:53:20,240 --> 00:53:28,720 » Uh if we could get a motion to uh move into a closed session in discussion of 655 00:53:26,079 --> 00:53:34,319 the matter of white class lending. >> Make a motion to do that. 656 00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:37,839 I'll second. Second. >> Thank you. 657 00:53:36,240 --> 00:53:42,319 » I can read it in. >> All in favor? 658 00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:46,880 » I I >> Thanks, Jeff. [laughter] 659 00:53:45,119 --> 00:53:50,240 » After you, Jeff. >> Uh, let the record show the following 660 00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:54,559 commission members have voted to close this meeting for the sole purpose of 661 00:53:52,319 --> 00:53:57,920 discussing the character, professional competence, or [snorts] physical and 662 00:53:55,920 --> 00:54:03,319 mental health of an individual. Chair Flinton, Commission members Olsen, 663 00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:03,319 England, and Vale. 664 00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:08,839 And the breakout room just started 665 01:04:55,680 --> 01:05:01,559 Okay, everyone back. 666 01:05:02,079 --> 01:05:10,079 Okay. Regarding Yeah. Regarding the uh stipulation, 667 01:05:07,520 --> 01:05:16,079 uh do I have a motion to accept the stipulation as written? 668 01:05:12,319 --> 01:05:21,039 » I may make that motion. >> And a second. 669 01:05:17,680 --> 01:05:26,960 » I'll second it. >> Does the commission concur? 670 01:05:24,559 --> 01:05:32,480 » So, uh Jeff, what you want to do is ask for a vote on the motion. Oh, could I 671 01:05:28,960 --> 01:05:34,640 get a vote on the motion? >> Do I just 672 01:05:33,280 --> 01:05:37,920 » I'm in favor. >> In favor? 673 01:05:35,599 --> 01:05:41,520 » Yes. I'm in favor. >> Okay. 674 01:05:39,599 --> 01:05:46,480 » Does the commission concur? >> Yes, the uh the division concurs with 675 01:05:43,920 --> 01:05:49,640 the action. Thank you. 676 01:05:50,079 --> 01:05:53,079 » Okay. 677 01:05:53,520 --> 01:06:00,640 » Well, that will uh that will conclude our our meeting today. Um, appreciate 678 01:05:58,480 --> 01:06:05,440 everyone coming and and participating and we'll adjourn to looks like October 679 01:06:03,520 --> 01:06:09,359 7th would be our next one. And if I'm not mistaken, Justin, is that one in 680 01:06:07,599 --> 01:06:14,799 person? >> I apologize, I did not check that. There 681 01:06:12,319 --> 01:06:18,400 is one per year that we do in person. Uh, I'll check with Lee and we'll make 682 01:06:16,880 --> 01:06:22,400 sure you know that. That could be the October meeting because it's been a 683 01:06:20,480 --> 01:06:27,440 while since we were in person. >> So, no shorts and t-shirt is what you're 684 01:06:24,000 --> 01:06:31,400 recommending then. We won't tell you how to cry. 685 01:06:31,680 --> 01:06:35,680 » Okay. Well, thank you. We appreciate you. 686 01:06:34,079 --> 01:06:38,640 » All right. Thank you for your time. >> Have a great day. Thank you. 687 01:06:37,520 --> 01:06:42,680 » Bye, everyone. >> Thank you. 688 01:06:39,359 --> 01:06:42,680 » Bye now.