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Why can't why can't they

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trust the other people?

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>> So we have only two.

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>> Yeah. But do we have enough to remove?

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>> Yeah.

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» Okay. All right.

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>> Okay.

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Are we ready?

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Okay. Uh, good evening everyone. We're

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going to call the meeting of the

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planning and zoning commission of the

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village of Corales meeting of July 15,

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2026 to order. And uh

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we are going to call the role

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um and then we'll look at the agenda.

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So, please uh call the role.

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>> Thank you, Mr. Chair. Jerry Sturmer

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>> here.

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>> Mary Chappelle

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>> here.

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>> Jodie Harrington

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>> here.

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>> Edgar BS

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>> here.

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>> Mike Source

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>> here.

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>> Salame Ward

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>> here.

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>> We have a quorum.

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>> So, we have a quorum. And we would uh

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like to look at the draft agenda

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and ask for approval of the agenda by

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motion. I motion to approve the agenda.

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>> We have a a motion to approve.

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>> I'll second

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>> and seconded. Uh so a a motion to

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approve by Commissioner Harrington and

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second by Commissioner uh Source and

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please call the RO.

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>> Okay, for the vote. Salame

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[clears throat] Ward

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>> I. Mike Source

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>> here. I

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>> Edgar BS

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>> I. Jody Harrington.

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>> Hi.

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>> Mary Chappelle.

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>> Hi.

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>> And Jerry Sturmer.

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>> Hi. So, we have our agenda and the next

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item is to approve the minutes of the

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meeting of June 17th

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and uh we have the draft uh minutes

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before us. Do we have a motion to

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approve or is there

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any concern about the minutes?

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I have no concerns.

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>> Okay. Do we have a motion to approve?

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>> Move to approve the minutes.

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» And do we have a second?

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>> I'll second that motion.

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>> Okay. The uh we have a motion and second

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to approve the meeting mo minutes of

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June 17th.

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Uh and please call the RO.

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>> Okay. And we have a unique situation for

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the minutes. Only the folks that were

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here present in June can vote. So Mary

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Chappelle

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>> I.

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>> Jerry Sturmer

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>> I.

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>> And Jody Harrington

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>> abstain.

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>> So because uh

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Commissioner Harrington was not here and

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no one else besides the two of us are

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here. We have a unanimous vote of the

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two of us. And according to councel,

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this is uh sufficient be uh because what

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did you call it?

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>> An implied quorum. In this case, the

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only other option would be to just not

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vote at all. And in that case, it's

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implied approval.

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>> So it's better our our council said it's

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better to have some council or some

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commissioners who were present to

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actually vote even though it's not a

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full quorum. Thank you. So, um

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those minutes are now approved and in

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the record. Uh as everybody can see from

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the draft agenda, we're going to move to

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the Coralaneous public forum and we have

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no public hearing items today. But

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happily we do have a opportunity for uh

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thorough training um with uh Brennan

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Williams and we'll get to that in a

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minute. Uh let's begin with the

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coralenous public forum. We do have one

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comment um in written form here but I

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would hope that we could also hear from

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the commenter.

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Would would you like to come forward,

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please? So So tell us your name and

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address.

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My name is Pat McClennon. Uh 2968

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Carellis Road. Uh I submitted a letter

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and I don't I I don't think I need to

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repeat that information. I I basically

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uh was looking for a revision to our

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minutes and and our recordings.

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I think uh particularly tonight uh in

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this training session that this re the

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recording the video recording of this

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meeting should be retained uh long term

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for review. Uh it's a it's a complicated

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job and there's things that I think uh

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Mr. Williams will be telling us tonight

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that perhaps we want to look at again.

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So I would urge that we keep that uh as

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a as a record video copy of this

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meeting. Uh this the other items I think

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I suggested was just a premeating and

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even perhaps Mr. Williams had a comment

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since it it started actually in the city

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of Albuquerque which he's very familiar

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with. Uh I just thought that this would

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be beneficial to uh create a better

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informed decision. Uh uh those were my

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two comments and uh I hope you'll

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consider them. Thank you.

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>> Thank you.

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>> Okay. Uh

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>> um I I will say that tonight's meeting

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because there are no uh items requiring

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swearing in, the audio will be saved and

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I believe that the administrator is

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going to put it online because it's

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different than a usual quasi judicial

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meeting. So it will be saved.

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>> Great. And posted.

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>> Okay. Okay. Um,

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anything else? Otherwise, we have the

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opportunity. We'll move on to the next

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item. Uh, I uh before we do that, I want

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to welcome all the new commissioners.

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And I hope those present uh are familiar

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with uh the names of people who have

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been approved. And I wanted to make sure

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that we had uh the names of the current

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commissioners available for the public.

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And um I've asked that uh the

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administrator

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uh put this in all subsequent packets so

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that it it's available to everybody and

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it's clear who are members of the

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commission. um just for the public

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members and and I want to welcome the

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new members are volunteers from the

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community who have agreed to uh

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participate in the decision making that

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comes before the planning and zoning uh

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commission uh at our monthly meetings.

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And now uh I get to introduce uh Brennan

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Williams who is going to walk us through

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um some very important points. Uh both

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Commissioner Harrington and I had an

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opportunity to hear you. Uh I think it

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wasn't more than 20 months ago or

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>> it was September last year.

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>> September last year. So it's very clear

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in my mind. Of course. Um Mr. Williams

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is a retired planning and zoning

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professional with more than 25 years of

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hands-on experience in the Albuquerque

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metro area. Uh having served uh in

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various administrative roles both for

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the city of Albuquerque and the Bernalo

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County Planning Department. and he

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retired in 2021

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and today helps many communities

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establish uh their procedures and make

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sound legally defensible land use

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decisions with complete confidence and

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clarity. Thank you. Uh please join me in

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welcoming Mr. Williams.

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» Thank you commission and members of the

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public. Thank you. It's quite the setup.

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I appreciate that. Um, I am happy to be

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here. I appreciate the invitation. Uh,

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it's good to see folks that I've I've

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seen before. I apologize the corny jokes

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uh will remain. So, you'll have to laugh

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all over again at those if you would

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please. Uh, but I am I'm pleased to be

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here. Uh, I am particularly happy on a

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personal level because uh July, in my

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opinion, has always been Commissioner

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Appreciation Month.

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Uh 30 years ago, uh in July of 1996,

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I attended my very first planning

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commission meeting at the city of

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Albuquerque.

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Um, I was a brand new uh zoning

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inspector with the city of Albuquerque

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and the supervisor that I was uh

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training with uh grabbed myself and

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three of the other new hires and said

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one morning, "Come on, we're going to go

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to the planning commission meeting." And

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um I was disgusted

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because uh I watched two members of the

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public, an applicant and a member from a

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neighborhood association

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act like little kids. They had no common

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courtesy was out the window. And so, uh,

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one of the one of the applicants was a

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developer that had had to make some

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changes to, uh, their fire lanes, the

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location of the fire lanes on their

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shopping center site development plan

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that they were trying to get through the

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process. They had been before the

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commission a couple times. The fire

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marshall's office was insistent that

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wherever the current location of those

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fire lanes were, it needed to be

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adjusted because they weren't able to

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turn around their their large fire

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trucks. Uh they didn't want to be

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backing out. Uh so they had asked the

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commission to uh request that the

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developer make changes and he had done

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so, but he was not happy about it. And

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so he stood before the commission and

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shook his finger at them and said, "Uh,

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I've wasted time and money on this. It's

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cost me um if I don't get approval

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today, I'm going to sue every single one

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of you. Uh the other uh individual I

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remember was someone from a neighborhood

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president of a neighborhood association

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who told the commission uh and I quote,

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"Don't be stupid. Everybody knows we

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don't need another gas station on the

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west side of town. Uh listen to what

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constituents are telling you, what the

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members of the public are telling you.

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Don't approve this. I turned to one of

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my uh my new hires, one of my brand new

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buddies, and said, "I I just can't

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believe that people would act like this

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in a public forum."

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And he said, "Well, this is no different

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than the way they treat us at the permit

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counter or out in the fields when we're

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doing our jobs." And I said, "Well,

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that's true, but we get paid.

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We we collect a salary. We get a

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paycheck every two weeks. We've got

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health benefits. We've got dental plans

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that we can rely on." uh the planning

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commission are volunteers that come in

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uh to do this. Why should they be

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subjected to uh that type of behavior

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was my point? Um I can tell you over the

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past 30 years working with various uh

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commissions at both the city of

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Albuquerque as well as Berno County as

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well as other jurisdictions across the

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state. Uh unfortunately, it's not

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uncommon for people uh that are in the

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process to behave that way. So, let me

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say as I begin, uh, thank you for what

276
00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:06,560
you do as volunteers for your community.

277
00:12:06,560 --> 00:12:08,800
I have found without fail that members

278
00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:10,639
of the climate commission care deeply

279
00:12:10,639 --> 00:12:12,800
about, uh, how their community is

280
00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:14,959
developed, how how decisions are made,

281
00:12:14,959 --> 00:12:17,040
and that sort of thing. So, uh, I

282
00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:20,079
appreciate your your, uh, invitation to

283
00:12:20,079 --> 00:12:21,839
be here tonight, as well as that from

284
00:12:21,839 --> 00:12:23,519
the members of the public uh, who

285
00:12:23,519 --> 00:12:25,120
obviously again care about planning and

286
00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:27,519
zoning issues. So, let's get started.

287
00:12:27,519 --> 00:12:29,760
What's it all about? uh as I mentioned

288
00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:31,920
as an appointed official uh of the

289
00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:34,880
village uh you serve a vital important

290
00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:36,560
role in your community. The decisions

291
00:12:36,560 --> 00:12:39,200
that you make today will live on for

292
00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:41,839
generations, hundreds hundreds of years.

293
00:12:41,839 --> 00:12:43,279
And I am going to take this point and

294
00:12:43,279 --> 00:12:45,440
I'm going to beat it over the head today

295
00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:48,959
because again your role is is very

296
00:12:48,959 --> 00:12:51,680
important and and doing it conducting

297
00:12:51,680 --> 00:12:53,600
your business the right way is

298
00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:56,800
critically important to success. Uh as I

299
00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:58,160
mentioned there how you conduct your

300
00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:01,279
business meetings. Uh all of that

301
00:13:01,279 --> 00:13:03,279
affects how you are perceived in the

302
00:13:03,279 --> 00:13:05,680
community. Your level of of success and

303
00:13:05,680 --> 00:13:09,200
influence is judged by that.

304
00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:11,040
The goals for tonight are basically to

305
00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:14,160
discuss and consider uh some common uh

306
00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:16,880
planning and zoning uh terminology, some

307
00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:19,600
topics. Uh we'll talk about how to deal

308
00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:21,680
with various uh planning and zoning

309
00:13:21,680 --> 00:13:24,079
issues. I'm going to outline the roles

310
00:13:24,079 --> 00:13:26,079
and the responsibilities

311
00:13:26,079 --> 00:13:29,680
of various uh individuals uh and groups

312
00:13:29,680 --> 00:13:31,279
uh in the in the planning and zoning

313
00:13:31,279 --> 00:13:34,240
process. And then finally, we'll touch

314
00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:37,680
on how to avoid uh unnecessary pitfalls

315
00:13:37,680 --> 00:13:39,839
or obstructions that might lead to some

316
00:13:39,839 --> 00:13:43,279
sort of liability uh to you personally

317
00:13:43,279 --> 00:13:47,279
or to the village uh as a whole.

318
00:13:47,279 --> 00:13:50,800
Um before we get officially started,

319
00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:52,560
questions are appreciated. I know this

320
00:13:52,560 --> 00:13:55,120
is I'm standing at a at a podium and

321
00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,600
this looks rather formal and stiff. I

322
00:13:57,600 --> 00:13:59,760
don't want it to be that way. Uh please

323
00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:02,560
if you have questions uh ask that they

324
00:14:02,560 --> 00:14:05,279
are encouraged. Um I have found over the

325
00:14:05,279 --> 00:14:07,600
years that uh if you've got a a question

326
00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:09,440
about a particular issue or I need to

327
00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:11,680
explain further uh there's somebody else

328
00:14:11,680 --> 00:14:14,000
in the room that has the same or similar

329
00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:15,839
question. So again, please don't don't

330
00:14:15,839 --> 00:14:18,480
hesitate to ask. I mean this truly there

331
00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:21,680
is no such thing as a stupid question. I

332
00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:23,519
formally declaring that the Vegas rule

333
00:14:23,519 --> 00:14:26,399
is in effect. Meaning, uh, the things we

334
00:14:26,399 --> 00:14:28,880
talk about here, uh, I want you to feel

335
00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:31,519
free, uh, to be able to do that because

336
00:14:31,519 --> 00:14:33,680
again, that's how I find that a majority

337
00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:38,949
of of the issues can be resolved.

338
00:14:38,959 --> 00:14:40,480
And then lastly, keep in mind while

339
00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:42,480
there are certain legal requirements

340
00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:44,320
that I'm going to talk about uh and

341
00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:46,240
impress upon you that those are legal

342
00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:49,440
requirements, there is not a right way

343
00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:53,360
to to zone or or to regulate land use in

344
00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:55,519
your community. The way they do it in

345
00:14:55,519 --> 00:14:58,480
Corales uh might be similar to but it's

346
00:14:58,480 --> 00:14:59,680
probably different than the way they do

347
00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,000
it in Carl'sb. Does it mean that one

348
00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:03,920
community is right or better than

349
00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:06,880
another? I like to tell communities that

350
00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:09,279
if you find somebody else that does it a

351
00:15:09,279 --> 00:15:10,880
little bit better than you do or you

352
00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:12,880
like a certain aspect of how they do

353
00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,839
things, uh, it's a lot like pop music.

354
00:15:15,839 --> 00:15:18,160
Take that idea, repackage it as your

355
00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:20,800
own, and then and then use it. That's a

356
00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:23,040
there's no such thing as plagiarism when

357
00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:25,839
we're talking about zoning.

358
00:15:25,839 --> 00:15:27,920
Um and last bullet point there,

359
00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:29,360
municipalities can create their own

360
00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:31,040
ordinances, their own codes, their own

361
00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:33,199
plans depending upon the unique

362
00:15:33,199 --> 00:15:35,519
characteristics and goal of of your

363
00:15:35,519 --> 00:15:38,480
community. Uh what you can't do is make

364
00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,440
up rules on the fly. Uh so if something

365
00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:44,000
is not working uh and you want to change

366
00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:45,680
those rules, you have to engage in the

367
00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:47,839
formal process to do that. But there's

368
00:15:47,839 --> 00:15:50,480
nothing that says that you can't change

369
00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,600
what you've got if you as a commission

370
00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:55,759
feel like it's not not working

371
00:15:55,759 --> 00:15:58,399
correctly.

372
00:15:58,399 --> 00:16:00,880
So, what is zoning? Uh, if you're old

373
00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:02,320
school like me, you go over to the

374
00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:05,279
bookshelf and you wipe the dust off the

375
00:16:05,279 --> 00:16:07,519
dictionary and you go to Z and you look

376
00:16:07,519 --> 00:16:09,040
up zoning and you might find something

377
00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:11,600
like this. Zoning is local government

378
00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:14,639
law that controls the use of land within

379
00:16:14,639 --> 00:16:17,199
the specified jurisdiction.

380
00:16:17,199 --> 00:16:19,040
Clear as

381
00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:22,399
uh if you are young and hip and you

382
00:16:22,399 --> 00:16:25,759
Google it or Type it into chat GPT. You

383
00:16:25,759 --> 00:16:27,440
might find something that says zoning is

384
00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:29,040
a systemized method of land use

385
00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:31,680
regulation designating the activities

386
00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:34,800
which may occur thereon.

387
00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:38,079
Again, not too educational. It doesn't

388
00:16:38,079 --> 00:16:41,120
explain. The land's version is this.

389
00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:42,959
Zoning is the government's ability to

390
00:16:42,959 --> 00:16:46,079
tell you what you can or you cannot do

391
00:16:46,079 --> 00:16:48,720
on your own property.

392
00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:49,920
Uh, I don't know about you, but

393
00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:52,480
sometimes hearing that after saying it

394
00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:53,759
for years and years and years still

395
00:16:53,759 --> 00:16:55,040
makes the hair on the back of my neck

396
00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:57,600
stand up because your home is your

397
00:16:57,600 --> 00:16:59,199
castle, right? You think of your

398
00:16:59,199 --> 00:17:02,240
property as yours. That's that's very

399
00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:06,000
personal uh to you. I can assure you uh

400
00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:07,839
as a young zoning inspector in

401
00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:09,360
Albuquerque,

402
00:17:09,360 --> 00:17:11,199
uh you weren't fully vetted. you had not

403
00:17:11,199 --> 00:17:14,079
paid your dues until you had been called

404
00:17:14,079 --> 00:17:18,319
a communist, a terrorist or a fascist in

405
00:17:18,319 --> 00:17:20,959
the performance of your duties. Uh while

406
00:17:20,959 --> 00:17:24,880
that may be a common uh complaint about

407
00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:27,520
zoning, when done correctly, that that's

408
00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:30,080
not what zoning is. Okay, let's talk

409
00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:32,640
about what what zoning is. The truth is

410
00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:34,000
that land use standards have been in

411
00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:35,760
effect for as long as mankind has has

412
00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:37,360
walked the earth.

413
00:17:37,360 --> 00:17:38,960
If you're a hunter, a fisherman,

414
00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:42,000
outdoorsman, you know, whatever, uh,

415
00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,160
think about setting up a campsite. In a

416
00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,720
nutshell, that is zoning. You figure out

417
00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:48,960
the location for your tent, which is

418
00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,039
going to be your residential, maybe your

419
00:17:51,039 --> 00:17:53,840
house for the weekend. Uh, you place the

420
00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:57,440
cooler at a specific sp on the

421
00:17:57,440 --> 00:17:59,280
campground. You don't want it too close

422
00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:00,960
to the tent, but you also don't want it

423
00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:02,720
so far away that it's inconvenient to go

424
00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:04,799
grab something out of out of your food

425
00:18:04,799 --> 00:18:07,120
source, out of the cooler. you set up a

426
00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:09,120
campfire, you don't again want that so

427
00:18:09,120 --> 00:18:10,880
close to the tent that it damages the

428
00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:12,880
tent, nor do you want it damaging the

429
00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:15,120
food source. And then of course, if

430
00:18:15,120 --> 00:18:16,320
you've ever been camping with little

431
00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:19,039
kids, the question is, "Daddy, where do

432
00:18:19,039 --> 00:18:21,120
we go to the bathroom?" Right? You you

433
00:18:21,120 --> 00:18:23,120
that's done somewhere else far away from

434
00:18:23,120 --> 00:18:25,840
the campfire in the tens.

435
00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:27,760
That's that's planning. That's community

436
00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:30,240
planning in a nutshell. There are really

437
00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:32,400
three significant events that happened

438
00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,520
about 100 years ago uh that that kind of

439
00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:38,160
established the foundation of what we

440
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:40,320
consider what we talk about zoning uh

441
00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:43,840
today. The first uh was construction of

442
00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:46,559
the equitable building in Manhattan in

443
00:18:46,559 --> 00:18:48,160
New York City that occurred over about a

444
00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:51,200
2-year period 1915 1916.

445
00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:53,600
Uh this was the home of built

446
00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:56,080
specifically for the equitable insurance

447
00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:59,120
company. Uh when completed this was a

448
00:18:59,120 --> 00:19:03,120
36story dual tower office building uh

449
00:19:03,120 --> 00:19:05,600
was over 550 or was 5

450
00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,480
ft tall, provided over 1.2 million

451
00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:11,520
square feet of gross floor area. And uh

452
00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:14,720
the big issue, the big rub was that when

453
00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,919
the building was completed, uh it cast a

454
00:19:17,919 --> 00:19:20,799
7 acre shadow. Uh so that there were

455
00:19:20,799 --> 00:19:22,799
properties literally across the street

456
00:19:22,799 --> 00:19:25,520
from this building that have not seen

457
00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:28,880
the sun, direct sunlight since 1915 or

458
00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:33,360
1916 uh because of the the monstrosity

459
00:19:33,360 --> 00:19:36,160
of the equitable building. And so uh it

460
00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:37,840
was certainly not the first large

461
00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:40,240
building in New York City nor the last.

462
00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:42,240
Uh but the people of New York had had

463
00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:44,640
enough. They petitioned their elected

464
00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:46,880
officials and they said, "These massive

465
00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:49,039
buildings without any control, without

466
00:19:49,039 --> 00:19:51,679
any regulation, make us feel crowded. It

467
00:19:51,679 --> 00:19:53,840
chokes out the sunlight. It it feels

468
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:56,000
oppressive. We're walking down these

469
00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,000
canyons of buildings and we don't want

470
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:00,640
that anymore." And so what New York City

471
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:04,160
came up with uh were uh requirements for

472
00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:06,960
step back architecture. So if you go a

473
00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:09,360
certain number of feet high and continue

474
00:20:09,360 --> 00:20:12,000
to want to build up, you have to step

475
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:16,000
your building back. Um there was a shift

476
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:17,840
to separating office developments from

477
00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:20,160
one another. They weren't all in one

478
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,160
area. There was they intentionally

479
00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:24,880
separated those types of activities. Uh

480
00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:26,799
there were adoption of daylight and air

481
00:20:26,799 --> 00:20:29,440
requirements again so that people uh

482
00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:31,760
didn't always feel like they were being

483
00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:34,480
uh oppressed by these big buildings. And

484
00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:35,840
there were also protections for

485
00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:38,480
residential development uh to protect it

486
00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:41,039
from from commercial or industrial uses.

487
00:20:41,039 --> 00:20:44,799
So that was issue uh event number one.

488
00:20:44,799 --> 00:20:46,320
Number two occurred a few years later

489
00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:48,640
1922. The department of commerce

490
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:50,320
publishes the standard state zoning

491
00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:52,480
enabling act. Uh this becomes the

492
00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:54,400
blueprint uh for cities particularly

493
00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:57,280
along the east coast uh to come up with

494
00:20:57,280 --> 00:20:59,440
framework on how to regulate land use

495
00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:01,360
within their communities. There were

496
00:21:01,360 --> 00:21:03,120
nine sections of the document. They

497
00:21:03,120 --> 00:21:06,480
outlined how to uh divide a local

498
00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:09,520
jurisdiction uh up, how to adopt

499
00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:11,520
enforcement mechanisms to ensure those

500
00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:13,840
standards are met. Uh included things

501
00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:16,000
like formal notice and public hearings

502
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,400
for for certain uh planning and zoning

503
00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:22,080
matters. Uh created uh height limits and

504
00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:24,000
story limits for buildings, yard

505
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:25,840
requirements. We commonly refer to those

506
00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:28,159
as setbacks. Uh and there were some

507
00:21:28,159 --> 00:21:32,400
density limits that were placed there.

508
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:34,880
That was number two. Issue number three

509
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,360
was a uh United States Supreme Court

510
00:21:37,360 --> 00:21:40,320
case decided in 1926.

511
00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:42,240
Uh it's the Village of Uklid, Ohio

512
00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:44,559
versus the Amler Reality Company. And

513
00:21:44,559 --> 00:21:46,159
this is a lawsuit that centered on

514
00:21:46,159 --> 00:21:48,400
whether or not the village of Uklid,

515
00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,200
which is still there in Ohio, uh their

516
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:52,960
suburb of Cleveland, whether or not they

517
00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:56,640
could establish uh land use restrictions

518
00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:58,559
uh and adopt a zoning code for the

519
00:21:58,559 --> 00:22:00,240
properties that were in their their

520
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:02,960
village limits.

521
00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:05,440
The background is that in 1922, the

522
00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:07,280
village adopted an ordinance through a

523
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,159
public hearing process. That ordinance

524
00:22:10,159 --> 00:22:13,520
came up with six six different zones uh

525
00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:15,520
and They applied those new six different

526
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:18,000
zones uh to all the properties that were

527
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,320
within the jurisdiction. One of the

528
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:22,240
property owners was the Amler Reality

529
00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:25,760
Company. They owned 68 acres of land and

530
00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:28,320
they argued that uh the village by

531
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:31,120
imposing limitations and restrictions on

532
00:22:31,120 --> 00:22:34,159
their 68 acres. They had reduced the

533
00:22:34,159 --> 00:22:35,919
value of the land. Their argument was

534
00:22:35,919 --> 00:22:37,520
that we have always intended on

535
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:39,760
developing these 68 acres for heavy

536
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:42,799
industrial uses and by you imposing you

537
00:22:42,799 --> 00:22:45,760
the village imposing these restrictions

538
00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:48,080
you're taking away you know land value

539
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:52,880
here and you're not compensating us for it and consequently

540
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:54,720
you know because of that you're being

541
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:56,640
unconstitutional in your in your

542
00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,120
governmental action. So parties begin

543
00:22:59,120 --> 00:23:00,880
suing each other and it works its way up

544
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:02,240
through the United States Supreme Court

545
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,679
and again in 1926 the courts the United

546
00:23:05,679 --> 00:23:07,039
States Supreme Court decided the

547
00:23:07,039 --> 00:23:10,159
following that despite the argument the

548
00:23:10,159 --> 00:23:12,320
ordinance was not an unreasonable use of

549
00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:14,320
the villages police power or their

550
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:17,760
inherent ability to control and regulate

551
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,799
what occurs within village limits.

552
00:23:20,799 --> 00:23:22,400
Secondly, that the ordinance was not

553
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:24,720
discriminatory as had been argued

554
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:26,559
because the court found a rational basis

555
00:23:26,559 --> 00:23:29,440
for standards to separate residential,

556
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,240
commercial and industrial uses. And

557
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:34,240
finally, uh the ordinance was not

558
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:36,320
unconstitutional or in other words, it

559
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:38,480
was deemed to be constitutional in

560
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,200
nature because the process that was used

561
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,120
by the village to establish the

562
00:23:43,120 --> 00:23:44,640
standards

563
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,360
uh was uh was adhered to was was

564
00:23:47,360 --> 00:23:48,880
recognized by the courts as being

565
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,360
correct. The court recognized that the

566
00:23:51,360 --> 00:23:54,080
presumption of favor of local

567
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,480
governments to create zoning regulations

568
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:58,720
unless they are clearly arbitrary,

569
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:00,960
unreasonable, have no substantial

570
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:02,320
relation to public health, safety,

571
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:05,520
morals or general welfare is the is the

572
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:07,200
standard which needs to be met and the

573
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:09,039
court determined that Uclid the village

574
00:24:09,039 --> 00:24:11,919
of Uclid had done that. So those are the

575
00:24:11,919 --> 00:24:14,720
three events equitable building standard

576
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,039
state zoning enabling act and then this

577
00:24:17,039 --> 00:24:20,000
United States Supreme Court case. Here

578
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:21,600
in New Mexico, uh, something very

579
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:23,520
similar happened in 1965. The

580
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,480
legislature adopted the municipal zoning

581
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:28,960
act 3211.

582
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:30,799
This is legislation that provides for

583
00:24:30,799 --> 00:24:32,640
the purpose of promoting health, safety,

584
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,279
morals, and general welfare. A county or

585
00:24:35,279 --> 00:24:39,039
a municipality is a zoning authority and

586
00:24:39,039 --> 00:24:40,960
as such they may regulate and restrict

587
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:43,120
within the jurisdiction the following.

588
00:24:43,120 --> 00:24:44,880
Height, number of stories and size of

589
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:46,240
buildings and other structures, the

590
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:47,760
percentage of a yard that can be

591
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:50,480
occupied. The size of yards, courts and

592
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:52,000
other open space, the density of the

593
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,400
population and the location and use of

594
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:56,559
building structures and land for trade,

595
00:24:56,559 --> 00:24:58,960
industry, recreation or any other

596
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,760
purpose. with anything that occurs, you

597
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,799
can use properly zoning to control and

598
00:25:04,799 --> 00:25:07,120
regulate the use of land within the

599
00:25:07,120 --> 00:25:08,880
jurisdiction.

600
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:10,480
The act goes on to require that the

601
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:12,000
zoning authority has to adopt a

602
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,799
comprehensive plan upon which the zoning

603
00:25:14,799 --> 00:25:17,440
should be based. The comp plan is your

604
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,400
policy document that talks about uh in

605
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:22,799
generalities uh characteristics of the

606
00:25:22,799 --> 00:25:25,200
community that wish to be protected. Uh

607
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:29,360
or uh we appreciate the rural So, we're

608
00:25:29,360 --> 00:25:32,159
going to require large lots and large

609
00:25:32,159 --> 00:25:34,720
setback distances to preserve that

610
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:36,559
feeling of openness, things of that

611
00:25:36,559 --> 00:25:39,760
nature. The zoning code then gives you

612
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:42,320
specifics or the details on how to meet

613
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,039
those policy goals.

614
00:25:45,039 --> 00:25:46,559
The act says that the comp plan should

615
00:25:46,559 --> 00:25:48,240
be designed to lessen congestion in the

616
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,000
streets and the public ways to secure

617
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,080
safety from fire, flood waters, panic,

618
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,320
and other damages. Promote health and

619
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:55,679
general welfare. We've heard that

620
00:25:55,679 --> 00:25:58,559
before. Provide adequate light and Heard

621
00:25:58,559 --> 00:26:00,159
that one before. Prevent the

622
00:26:00,159 --> 00:26:01,919
overcrowding of land. Avoid undue

623
00:26:01,919 --> 00:26:03,840
congest, excuse me, undue concentration

624
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:05,679
of the population, facilitate adequate

625
00:26:05,679 --> 00:26:07,600
provisions for transportation, water,

626
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,000
sewage, schools, parks, and other public

627
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,400
requirements. And control the uh control

628
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:13,840
and debate the unsightly use of

629
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,559
buildings or land.

630
00:26:16,559 --> 00:26:18,320
also goes on to say that the zoning

631
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:21,360
authority must provide by ordinance the

632
00:26:21,360 --> 00:26:23,360
process by which zoning decisions or

633
00:26:23,360 --> 00:26:25,679
zoning determinations are made, the

634
00:26:25,679 --> 00:26:27,440
standards that are to be enforced and

635
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:29,520
the procedures that are used to change,

636
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:33,039
to modify, to supplement or to repeal or

637
00:26:33,039 --> 00:26:36,000
adopt uh land use requirements.

638
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,559
The act also mandates that uh a properly

639
00:26:38,559 --> 00:26:41,919
noticed public hearing must occur when a

640
00:26:41,919 --> 00:26:44,159
hearing body is engaged in those

641
00:26:44,159 --> 00:26:47,360
activities. The notice must indicate the

642
00:26:47,360 --> 00:26:49,279
time and the place where the hearing is

643
00:26:49,279 --> 00:26:51,520
to take place. It's got to be provided

644
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:53,360
at least 15 days in advance of the

645
00:26:53,360 --> 00:26:56,320
hearing. And depending upon uh the the

646
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,320
size of the request or or the property

647
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,559
that will be affected by the request,

648
00:27:00,559 --> 00:27:02,640
you either have to send out certified

649
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,679
mail return requested or first class

650
00:27:05,679 --> 00:27:07,679
mail. And again, that's all under state

651
00:27:07,679 --> 00:27:09,360
statute.

652
00:27:09,360 --> 00:27:10,559
As we drilled around a little bit

653
00:27:10,559 --> 00:27:12,240
further, uh I hope I'm not surprising

654
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,799
anyone here. Uh but the village of Kalis

655
00:27:14,799 --> 00:27:17,120
has section in your uh in your zoning

656
00:27:17,120 --> 00:27:18,799
ordinance that talks specifically about

657
00:27:18,799 --> 00:27:22,000
the planning and zoning commission. Um

658
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:23,600
talks about the number of members,

659
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,559
seven. You're appointed uh by the mayor

660
00:27:26,559 --> 00:27:28,960
with consent of the governing body. Uh

661
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,360
you're charged to serve staggered terms

662
00:27:31,360 --> 00:27:34,000
of two years. You have to reside within

663
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,480
the village.

664
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,120
Uh talks about makeup. You've got to

665
00:27:39,120 --> 00:27:40,720
have a chair, a vice chair, and a

666
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,440
secretary. Uh those positions serve for

667
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,159
one calendar year or until the planning

668
00:27:46,159 --> 00:27:50,240
commission elects somebody else. Um

669
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:51,679
you've got duties that are outlined

670
00:27:51,679 --> 00:27:54,159
there. I won't read all of those. Uh but

671
00:27:54,159 --> 00:27:55,840
you are to hold hearings, public

672
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:57,440
hearings on planning and zoning matters

673
00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:58,640
that come before you, offer

674
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,039
recommendations to the governing body,

675
00:28:01,039 --> 00:28:03,679
uh and work with them on uh any

676
00:28:03,679 --> 00:28:05,919
necessary public improvements as well as

677
00:28:05,919 --> 00:28:07,520
if you've got ideas on how to finance

678
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:09,760
those. Those all fall under your

679
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,559
responsibilities as commissioners.

680
00:28:12,559 --> 00:28:14,399
Uh you've got to hold at least uh one

681
00:28:14,399 --> 00:28:16,240
regular meeting a month unless there is

682
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:18,080
no business before the commission.

683
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,480
You've got to adopt rules of procedure.

684
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,640
Uh and you've got to keep minutes and

685
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:24,000
make sure those are turned over to the

686
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:25,440
village clerk for recordkeeping

687
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,080
purposes.

688
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,480
So in a nutshell uh as I mentioned at

689
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:34,399
the beginning your authority to regulate

690
00:28:34,399 --> 00:28:37,200
uh is is guaranteed is protected is

691
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,279
outlined at the federal the state and

692
00:28:39,279 --> 00:28:42,480
the local level. Um

693
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:44,000
I've always liked this quote with great

694
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,880
power comes great responsibility. I was

695
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,760
taught that it was some some version of

696
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,480
a speech given by Winston Churchill. Uh

697
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:54,080
my teenage daughter informed me, "No,

698
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:57,039
Dad, that's from Spider-Man 3." Uh so

699
00:28:57,039 --> 00:28:59,200
whether it's Church Hill or Spider-Man

700
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,240
3, I do think it's applicable to the to

701
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:04,799
the role that you're doing uh as as

702
00:29:04,799 --> 00:29:06,799
planning commissioners, uh you've got a

703
00:29:06,799 --> 00:29:10,399
lot of responsibility. Uh but with that

704
00:29:10,399 --> 00:29:14,320
uh comes comes the cost of making sure

705
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,200
you're doing your job correctly every

706
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,440
single time or as close to every single

707
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:21,360
time as possible.

708
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:27,350
Let me stop right there. Questions?

709
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,240
» Yes, sir. Go ahead. Go ahead.

710
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,760
>> Just to clarify, Brennan, that um

711
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:35,600
the municipality

712
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,240
has the primary responsibility and

713
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,440
authority to govern all those things

714
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:45,120
you've listed as opposed to the state or

715
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:46,960
the federal government. Right.

716
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,039
>> Correct. Yes, sir. Yes. At the local

717
00:29:49,039 --> 00:29:52,000
level, uh your local ordinance is going

718
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,200
to dictate uh how you do things. Uh but

719
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,279
there are protections

720
00:29:57,279 --> 00:29:59,760
uh and and allowances and authority

721
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:01,600
given at the at the federal and the

722
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:02,159
state level.

723
00:30:02,159 --> 00:30:04,159
>> Yeah. As long as we were staying within

724
00:30:04,159 --> 00:30:06,559
the enabling legislation to both of

725
00:30:06,559 --> 00:30:07,120
those.

726
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:12,870
>> Yes. Correct. Good point.

727
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,149
Um

728
00:30:16,159 --> 00:30:19,919
there was a in your slide you talked

729
00:30:19,919 --> 00:30:25,190
about um

730
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,840
the

731
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:29,600
Uklid versus Amber.

732
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,240
>> Yes sir. They argued

733
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:37,520
that is the uh Amber Realy

734
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:41,200
that something was taken away from them.

735
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:47,200
They had already purchased this 68 acres

736
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:51,440
and so they lost something that they

737
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,640
thought they had.

738
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:58,240
>> Look, I I would agree with that. But the

739
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,600
>> but the court said

740
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,240
for the good of the community these

741
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:08,240
rules need to go forward.

742
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,120
>> Correct. And the and the court also said

743
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,240
having not been on the court but I I'll

744
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,159
summize what what the court said in the

745
00:31:16,159 --> 00:31:19,039
decision was that the process that that

746
00:31:19,039 --> 00:31:20,640
the village used to create the

747
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:22,320
ordinance. It was it was a public

748
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:23,919
process.

749
00:31:23,919 --> 00:31:27,679
Um that that allowed all property owners

750
00:31:27,679 --> 00:31:35,520
as well as Amber or including Amler to argue to petition to raise points as

751
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:37,279
to why they should or shouldn't be

752
00:31:37,279 --> 00:31:39,919
subject to the code. Uh and because that

753
00:31:39,919 --> 00:31:42,559
process was public, it was open, it was

754
00:31:42,559 --> 00:31:44,799
transparent, it met all the notification

755
00:31:44,799 --> 00:31:48,000
requirements, that the law, the zoning

756
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,159
law was allowed, that it went through

757
00:31:50,159 --> 00:31:53,200
the right process and that it wasn't

758
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,039
unconstitutional

759
00:31:55,039 --> 00:31:58,960
uh at its at its base in its nature.

760
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,120
There was a question here in the

761
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:02,799
community

762
00:32:02,799 --> 00:32:04,399
um

763
00:32:04,399 --> 00:32:08,240
in the most recent comprehensive plan

764
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:12,799
where um the village was encouraged to

765
00:32:12,799 --> 00:32:14,799
consider

766
00:32:14,799 --> 00:32:17,760
um

767
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:22,399
smaller uh use of a of a lot, a smaller

768
00:32:22,399 --> 00:32:25,200
percentage. that seemed to have been in

769
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,679
the minds of the state legislators at

770
00:32:27,679 --> 00:32:31,200
one point. That's a a power that the the

771
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,080
village would have to have smaller or

772
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:40,159
larger percentage. Um some uh

773
00:32:40,159 --> 00:32:43,279
owners of lots came and testified before

774
00:32:43,279 --> 00:32:46,720
this commission that you can't take away

775
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,600
what we already own.

776
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,840
We own the ability to build this big and

777
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,640
now you're saying that if we that you

778
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,279
might change that to smaller. We

779
00:32:59,279 --> 00:33:03,360
purchased in order to build big and now

780
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,000
you're considering taking away our

781
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,880
ability to have a big lot or a big

782
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:12,000
house. You see what I'm trying to say?

783
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,799
>> Uh yes. I mean

784
00:33:14,799 --> 00:33:17,679
>> like the Supreme Court said but if if

785
00:33:17,679 --> 00:33:20,720
done properly the could change the

786
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:24,000
percentage and that homeowner who only

787
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,799
purchased a lot not an already existing

788
00:33:26,799 --> 00:33:29,440
building

789
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,159
might not win in court. Sure. And and I

790
00:33:32,159 --> 00:33:34,320
am painting not to be difficult. I am

791
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:37,200
painting with a pretty broad brush, but

792
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,360
um something of this nature can be

793
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:44,080
argued in several ways where the village

794
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:46,559
uh may be told be careful if you adopt

795
00:33:46,559 --> 00:33:48,240
this particular regulation or if you

796
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:49,600
make this change to the code, it could

797
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:52,080
have a ripple effect. Uh it could lead

798
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,440
to uh properties or or buildings that

799
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:57,440
are nonconforming. In other words, they

800
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:03,039
don't meet the current standard. Uh that sometimes is difficult to regulate.

801
00:34:03,039 --> 00:34:04,880
Uh But you also may be getting into

802
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:06,480
depending on the on the particulars on

803
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:08,639
the details, you may also be getting

804
00:34:08,639 --> 00:34:11,119
into territory where you might be uh

805
00:34:11,119 --> 00:34:13,440
improperly restricting or taking care of

806
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:15,440
somebody's property rights. It's really

807
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:19,760
issue specific. Um but it's it's not

808
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:21,679
uncommon to hear folks say if you're

809
00:34:21,679 --> 00:34:23,839
looking to change the code, we don't

810
00:34:23,839 --> 00:34:25,919
want to change because we always wanted

811
00:34:25,919 --> 00:34:28,159
to or we've anticipated or we dreamed

812
00:34:28,159 --> 00:34:29,280
about doing

813
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,079
>> X Y or Z.

814
00:34:32,079 --> 00:34:33,839
You know, again, broad brush brush here,

815
00:34:33,839 --> 00:34:36,800
but that doesn't always meet the legal

816
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,200
standard for prohibiting a community

817
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:42,000
from changing, adopting, tweaking,

818
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,240
updating their regulations.

819
00:34:44,240 --> 00:34:46,079
>> So, we're only going to get I mean,

820
00:34:46,079 --> 00:34:47,599
those people he's talking about then

821
00:34:47,599 --> 00:34:49,520
threatened to sue us if it was adopted

822
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:50,960
so they couldn't build the house they

823
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,919
had planned. Um, but it seems to me the

824
00:34:53,919 --> 00:34:55,520
only answer we're going to get is if

825
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:57,520
it's changed and they sue us, we'll go

826
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,480
to court. The court will have to

827
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:01,440
And [clears throat] and we'll talk about

828
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:03,440
this in detail a little bit more, but

829
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:05,040
the court is going to be looking at

830
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,200
should it go to court, the court is

831
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:09,040
going to be looking at the record that

832
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,200
was created. And one of the points I'm

833
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,760
going to express to you is make sure you

834
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:17,760
create a a good clean record. Doesn't

835
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:19,200
guarantee, you know, anybody can sue

836
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,839
anybody for anything. Doesn't mean that

837
00:35:21,839 --> 00:35:23,599
uh given the circumstances that the

838
00:35:23,599 --> 00:35:26,240
court would necessarily overturn a

839
00:35:26,240 --> 00:35:27,440
decision that was made by the

840
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:31,359
commission. Uh but it it helps if if the

841
00:35:31,359 --> 00:35:34,160
record is clean and the process uh is

842
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:36,560
followed to a tea. It just protects you

843
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:38,480
and it protects the village in those

844
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:40,400
decisions that you make that some people

845
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:41,520
feel might

846
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:42,880
>> and it's actually the village council

847
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:44,880
that would make that change.

848
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:45,680
>> Right.

849
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:47,280
>> We don't have that.

850
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:49,760
>> Correct. Yes. I mean you're again I'm

851
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:51,440
assuming in this scenario that you're

852
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:54,400
relying on staff, you're relying on uh

853
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,280
the village attorney or or the firm uh

854
00:35:57,280 --> 00:35:59,920
to to advise you and then you testimony

855
00:35:59,920 --> 00:36:01,440
and you look at the evidence and you

856
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,400
make the best decision possible and

857
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:06,480
we'll talk about what those benchmarks

858
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:10,720
are. But yes, you you are not

859
00:36:10,720 --> 00:36:13,200
you're not stuck out on a limb somewhere

860
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:15,280
uh with the fear that somebody's behind

861
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:19,040
you, you know, with a handsaw trying to cut your legs out from

862
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:21,760
underneath.

863
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:25,200
Okay. Anybody else?

864
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:30,950
Okay.

865
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:34,160
So major point here, if you leave with

866
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,119
nothing else in mind, as a hearing body,

867
00:36:37,119 --> 00:36:39,440
you have to adhere, you must, you shall

868
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,079
adhere to the established rules and

869
00:36:42,079 --> 00:36:43,760
those procedures when conducting your

870
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:45,359
business. Let's talk about what those

871
00:36:45,359 --> 00:36:48,640
are. Uh it was mentioned, Commissioner

872
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,520
BS mentioned that, uh the the

873
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:54,320
distinction between a a federal and and

874
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:58,320
state standard. Uh I'm not here you uh

875
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:01,040
but it's not uncommon uh during our

876
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:03,920
legislative session sessions uh for

877
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:05,920
bills to be proposed to both the House

878
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,720
and the Senate that seek to preempt or

879
00:37:08,720 --> 00:37:12,000
take away a local community's uh ability

880
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:13,920
to make decisions on planning and zoning

881
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,400
matters. Um really it's one of those

882
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,839
situations where uh if if approved or if

883
00:37:19,839 --> 00:37:22,880
adopted uh certain bills would would

884
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:27,200
take away your authority uh to to decide

885
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,839
certain matters. Um those are just a

886
00:37:29,839 --> 00:37:31,599
couple that have come up in the past

887
00:37:31,599 --> 00:37:33,760
couple legislative sessions. Uh there

888
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,000
are more uh that are out there and I can

889
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,480
tell you uh there will be more in the

890
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,599
future. And again, one of the common

891
00:37:41,599 --> 00:37:46,230
complaints uh that

892
00:37:46,240 --> 00:37:48,720
House members or senators will uh will

893
00:37:48,720 --> 00:37:50,560
use is that they're hearing complaints

894
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:52,880
from their constituents that the that

895
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:54,800
the process is broken, that people are

896
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,760
not treated fairly and equally, that one

897
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,079
decision on a particular matter is made

898
00:38:00,079 --> 00:38:02,240
one month and then the next month a very

899
00:38:02,240 --> 00:38:04,160
similar request comes forward and the

900
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:05,680
commission makes a completely different

901
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:06,800
decision.

902
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:09,520
any any level of predictability in the

903
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:12,079
process is gone. And so some of these

904
00:38:12,079 --> 00:38:18,160
proposals are meant to uh take away that authority at the local level uh and

905
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:20,800
make it a statewide requirement. So

906
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:22,800
again, adhering to the process is

907
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:24,880
important. It really comes down to

908
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:28,000
ethical decision making and that is

909
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,079
crucial to keeping the local community

910
00:38:30,079 --> 00:38:33,440
out of uh legal, procedural, and and

911
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:35,920
public problems. Uh you want to make as

912
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:38,720
a commission that uh you're you're

913
00:38:38,720 --> 00:38:41,280
respected, that the work that you do uh

914
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:42,960
is respected. People may not like the

915
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:44,720
answer or the decision that you give

916
00:38:44,720 --> 00:38:48,160
them. Uh but if you're engaged in a a

917
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:51,680
fair open process, uh that gives people

918
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:55,359
an ability to to get involved and and

919
00:38:55,359 --> 00:38:57,040
try to have their side of the of the

920
00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:59,440
story told.

921
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:00,720
High standards of integrity and

922
00:39:00,720 --> 00:39:02,400
proficiency are required so that again

923
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:04,240
public respect for the process is

924
00:39:04,240 --> 00:39:05,760
maintained.

925
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:07,440
Committing to doing things as written,

926
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:09,200
following the established process and

927
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:12,400
being open and transparent is the key.

928
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:14,160
The public has a right to be informed.

929
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:16,800
It is a public process. So, they have a

930
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,440
right to be informed uh and participate

931
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,800
in that process.

932
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:24,160
Some key points here. Planning and

933
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:25,599
zoning commission shapes the future of

934
00:39:25,599 --> 00:39:27,440
the community. I've talked about that a

935
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:29,520
couple times before, right? Don't forget

936
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:32,480
that. Uh often you are responsible for

937
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,839
helping or sometimes hindering uh

938
00:39:35,839 --> 00:39:37,680
dollars, development dollars, could be

939
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:39,599
in the tens of thousands, could be in

940
00:39:39,599 --> 00:39:42,000
the millions. Uh but you have the

941
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:43,520
authority to make a decision that could

942
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:46,160
affect uh a really big project, a really

943
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:48,720
good project, a really bad project.

944
00:39:48,720 --> 00:39:50,960
That's why adhering to uh the standards

945
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,599
and the criteria is important.

946
00:39:53,599 --> 00:39:55,119
There should be an emphasis on gaining

947
00:39:55,119 --> 00:39:57,440
and holding community trust. Always

948
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:00,320
acting with fairness and integrity uh

949
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:02,480
helps create that favorable rapport with

950
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,200
the public. And having a clean slate

951
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:07,359
approach for matters that come before

952
00:40:07,359 --> 00:40:12,000
you uh is is necessary, is required by

953
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:13,920
the law. We'll talk about this a little

954
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,000
bit more in just a little bit, but you

955
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:17,920
uh as planning and zoning commissioners

956
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:20,320
sit as judges very similar to what a

957
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:22,720
judge in a courtroom would do when you

958
00:40:22,720 --> 00:40:27,280
hear planning and zoning matters that come before you and you should act

959
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:28,880
accordingly. Not saying that you don't,

960
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:30,640
but it's important to remember that

961
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:32,480
that's that's the level that's where

962
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:34,800
we're going to raise the bar uh to make

963
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,520
sure that that we act and behave in that

964
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:40,320
capacity.

965
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:42,560
Uh due process is required. We'll about

966
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:43,920
that more at length here in a little

967
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:46,640
bit. But it just ensures fairness and it

968
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:48,880
gives participants an opportunity to be

969
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:50,400
heard. Guarantees that they've got an

970
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:52,960
opportunity to be heard. Transparency

971
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,200
provides openness and accountability. Uh

972
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:57,920
we are public servants in whether we

973
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:00,000
work directly for the planning and

974
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:02,480
zoning department uh or you serves serve

975
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:04,000
as representatives of the planning and

976
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:06,160
zoning commission. Uh but we are public

977
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:08,960
servants in that aspect. Uh perception

978
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:11,200
is extremely important. Participants

979
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:13,599
need to that they were heard, that the

980
00:41:13,599 --> 00:41:15,440
hearing was fair, and that they were

981
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:19,270
treated with respect.

982
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:20,400
Very quickly, let me give you a

983
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:22,000
practical example. This is completely

984
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:24,960
made up. Um I I take no credit. The

985
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:26,319
names have not been changed to protect

986
00:41:26,319 --> 00:41:28,000
the innocent because there were no names

987
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,560
to begin with. But um in my practical

988
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:33,119
example, [snorts] uh the San Gabriel

989
00:41:33,119 --> 00:41:36,000
Treatment Center LLC proposes to build a

990
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:38,720
new building uh to house a methodone

991
00:41:38,720 --> 00:41:41,440
treatment center. And the code

992
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:43,520
fictitious code uh that we're talking

993
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:44,960
about requires them to go through a

994
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:47,440
public hearing process in order to get

995
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:49,359
approval before they can turn in their

996
00:41:49,359 --> 00:41:51,119
plans and start building their building.

997
00:41:51,119 --> 00:41:52,800
Okay.

998
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:55,200
The zoning code classifies the methodone

999
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:57,599
clinic, the methodone treatment center

1000
00:41:57,599 --> 00:42:01,680
as a clinic. And it also defines a

1001
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:04,480
pharmacy, an urgent care center, a legal

1002
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:08,079
aid uh operation, a dental clinic, and

1003
00:42:08,079 --> 00:42:09,520
count mental health or counseling

1004
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:12,000
services also fall under this umbrella

1005
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:15,119
of a clinic. Okay.

1006
00:42:15,119 --> 00:42:17,040
A couple months ago, uh, for what it's

1007
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:18,880
worth, the planning and zoning

1008
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,359
commission, uh, approved a veterinary

1009
00:42:21,359 --> 00:42:24,400
clinic, uh, in the same zone, but on the

1010
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:26,560
opposite side of town. So, it's not

1011
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:28,800
apples to apples necessarily, but but

1012
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,119
they're similar projects, classified

1013
00:42:31,119 --> 00:42:33,200
similarly, uh, and within the same

1014
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:36,400
zoning designation.

1015
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:38,720
Uh, a large neighborhood opposition uh,

1016
00:42:38,720 --> 00:42:40,400
comes to the public hearing and they are

1017
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:42,800
opposed, vehemently opposed to the

1018
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:45,280
methodone treatment center. They say

1019
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:46,720
things like it's too close to the

1020
00:42:46,720 --> 00:42:48,240
daycare center that's just down the

1021
00:42:48,240 --> 00:42:50,800
street. Traffic is already a problem in

1022
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:53,760
this area. Uh you know, clientele of

1023
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,079
methanone treatment centers, um there

1024
00:42:56,079 --> 00:42:57,440
are going to be problems and there are

1025
00:42:57,440 --> 00:42:58,480
going to be problems in this

1026
00:42:58,480 --> 00:42:59,760
neighborhood if if the planning

1027
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:01,280
commission approves this. We don't want

1028
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:02,480
those type of people in our

1029
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:04,560
neighborhood. Uh and somebody else

1030
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:06,079
argues that the building style doesn't

1031
00:43:06,079 --> 00:43:07,680
reflect the design characteristics of

1032
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:09,599
the neighborhood. They're proposing just

1033
00:43:09,599 --> 00:43:13,200
a square metal building, black and white

1034
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:15,920
colors. there's no character, there's no

1035
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:18,560
architectural feel to that. So, we're

1036
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:21,920
opposed uh to that as well.

1037
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:23,440
So, members of this hearing body after

1038
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:25,280
hearing from from the public and their

1039
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:27,359
concerns, one says, you know what, we

1040
00:43:27,359 --> 00:43:29,680
should implement a moratorum and we

1041
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:32,000
should during that moratorum period, we

1042
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:33,920
should change the definition of clinic

1043
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:37,440
to remove methanote centers.

1044
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:38,800
Somebody else says, you know what,

1045
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:40,240
traffic is a problem with that

1046
00:43:40,240 --> 00:43:41,680
intersection. I think it would be a good

1047
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:44,319
idea that we require the developer to

1048
00:43:44,319 --> 00:43:46,720
come up with a traffic stud.

1049
00:43:46,720 --> 00:43:48,160
Somebody else suggested the applicant

1050
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:49,280
meet with the police department to come

1051
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:51,040
up with a public safety plan because,

1052
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:52,319
you know, there's going to be problems

1053
00:43:52,319 --> 00:43:54,319
based on this land use and we want to

1054
00:43:54,319 --> 00:43:55,680
make sure the police are working with

1055
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:57,839
the operator so that we know how we're

1056
00:43:57,839 --> 00:43:59,040
going to deal with with these people

1057
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:02,079
when they start causing problems.

1058
00:44:02,079 --> 00:44:05,119
And finally, somebody says, um, I

1059
00:44:05,119 --> 00:44:07,119
understand the architectural concerns

1060
00:44:07,119 --> 00:44:09,680
and I think we should have the developer

1061
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:12,560
hold three or four different public uh

1062
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:14,640
sharets meetings where the members can

1063
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:16,640
come in and we can ask the director to

1064
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:18,400
change it to make it fit with the

1065
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:20,240
neighborhood.

1066
00:44:20,240 --> 00:44:22,319
Anybody see problems with with any of

1067
00:44:22,319 --> 00:44:24,400
that?

1068
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:25,040
>> All of it.

1069
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:28,720
Please explain.

1070
00:44:28,720 --> 00:44:32,240
Well, if each of those areas of concern

1071
00:44:32,240 --> 00:44:34,800
isn't specifically addressed in the

1072
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:37,440
zoning code, then there's no authority

1073
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:43,829
to require any of that to happen.

1074
00:44:43,839 --> 00:44:45,760
That's Thank you. That that was exactly

1075
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:48,640
what is that you want to be careful.

1076
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:51,920
We're we're engaged in a public hearing.

1077
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:54,480
We're listening to and it's not always

1078
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:56,400
opposition, but we're listening to to

1079
00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:59,119
feedback from the public. It has to be

1080
00:44:59,119 --> 00:45:00,880
feedback that's pertinent to the

1081
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:03,040
established standards. If the code

1082
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:06,319
doesn't require a traffic study,

1083
00:45:06,319 --> 00:45:08,079
theoretically, I guess you could ask the

1084
00:45:08,079 --> 00:45:10,000
developer to to put together a traffic

1085
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:12,800
study, but you wouldn't use that as a as

1086
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:14,880
basis to deny the request. We asked them

1087
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:16,319
to put together a traffic study and they

1088
00:45:16,319 --> 00:45:17,760
didn't do it. Well, the code doesn't

1089
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:21,119
require it. So, you've got to play by

1090
00:45:21,119 --> 00:45:24,800
the existing rules. Okay.

1091
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:29,349
Questions about that?

1092
00:45:29,359 --> 00:45:31,040
uh as as decision makers, these are

1093
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:32,480
questions I think you need to be asking

1094
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:34,400
yourself consistently. What are the

1095
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:36,160
standards? What are the rules for

1096
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:38,079
review? What you know what are our

1097
00:45:38,079 --> 00:45:40,079
parameters? What are the bumpers set up?

1098
00:45:40,079 --> 00:45:42,240
How far can we go? What can we ask for?

1099
00:45:42,240 --> 00:45:44,640
What can we not ask for? What are the

1100
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:47,520
necessary steps uh as established? And

1101
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:49,440
are we following those steps in the

1102
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:52,400
process? Don't skip a step. Uh you have

1103
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:53,680
to follow those steps. If they're

1104
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:55,040
established, you have to follow those

1105
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:57,680
steps. And as a decision maker, have I

1106
00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:00,240
been open, honest, and in my involvement

1107
00:46:00,240 --> 00:46:03,920
in that matter. Again, it comes back to personal ethics. You want to make

1108
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:06,240
sure that you're above board uh as

1109
00:46:06,240 --> 00:46:07,760
you're making these decisions and

1110
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:10,400
determinations.

1111
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:12,960
Very quickly, some legal considerations

1112
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:15,359
uh for for you as commissioners. Uh

1113
00:46:15,359 --> 00:46:18,880
these don't uh these affect you. You're

1114
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:20,960
not necessarily responsible for them per

1115
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:22,400
se, but I do want to make sure you're

1116
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:24,560
aware of these. Uh the Open Meetings

1117
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:26,720
Act, it's a it's a state actuh that

1118
00:46:26,720 --> 00:46:31,680
requires public and openness during

1119
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:33,520
decisions and and planning and zoning

1120
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:35,040
deliberations. So if you've got a

1121
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:36,880
request that comes before you, you have

1122
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:40,960
to adhere to the standards of OM.

1123
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:42,880
The inspection public records act also

1124
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:46,400
affects you. Um that act indicates that

1125
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:48,880
while you conduct your business, the

1126
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:50,560
notes that you make, uh the

1127
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:53,040
conversations that you have, uh the

1128
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:55,839
emails that you send all become part of

1129
00:46:55,839 --> 00:46:58,640
the record and the public has a right uh

1130
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:00,800
to look at those should they choose to

1131
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:02,720
want copies of those or listen to the

1132
00:47:02,720 --> 00:47:05,280
recordings or whatever. Uh and and the

1133
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:07,359
village has to has to provide those for

1134
00:47:07,359 --> 00:47:10,800
folks that that make those requests.

1135
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:13,599
The United Civil Rights Act uh it's very

1136
00:47:13,599 --> 00:47:15,839
similar to uh protections that we'll

1137
00:47:15,839 --> 00:47:17,280
talk about in just a second at the

1138
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:19,839
federal level. Uh but it makes sure that

1139
00:47:19,839 --> 00:47:21,599
people again are treated fairly. they

1140
00:47:21,599 --> 00:47:23,440
are not discriminated against as they

1141
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:26,240
engage uh in public planning and zoning

1142
00:47:26,240 --> 00:47:29,359
hearings and processes. Uh it does allow

1143
00:47:29,359 --> 00:47:31,440
should a court find that a commission uh

1144
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:33,680
has violated the uh New Mexico Civil

1145
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:36,480
Rights Act. It does allow for municipal

1146
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:38,160
officials, which include planning

1147
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:41,119
commissioners uh to be held uh to to be

1148
00:47:41,119 --> 00:47:44,079
sued to be held accountable. So again,

1149
00:47:44,079 --> 00:47:46,480
not that anybody that I'm aware of would

1150
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:48,800
intentionally do something like that, uh

1151
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:50,960
but you want to make sure Everybody's

1152
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:52,640
getting a fair shake, everybody's being

1153
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:54,960
treated the same.

1154
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:57,200
Finally, uh the human rights act uh

1155
00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:59,359
again also just ensures that people are

1156
00:47:59,359 --> 00:48:00,880
not discriminated against and that

1157
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:02,880
they're treated fairly throughout the

1158
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:05,280
process. The subdivision act, the state

1159
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:06,640
subdivision act may affect your

1160
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:08,800
decisions. Uh the state engineering

1161
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,119
water law may affect some of that. Uh

1162
00:48:11,119 --> 00:48:13,680
cultural properties act uh may have some

1163
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:15,040
bearing on what you're doing. Again,

1164
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:17,119
you're going to be relying on on staff

1165
00:48:17,119 --> 00:48:20,960
or the attorney uh should a request come

1166
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:22,319
before you that would be affected by

1167
00:48:22,319 --> 00:48:24,000
that. But again, it's important to

1168
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:25,680
remember that you're not making the

1169
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:28,559
decision in a silo, you've got other

1170
00:48:28,559 --> 00:48:31,119
standards that you have to make sure are

1171
00:48:31,119 --> 00:48:32,880
to

1172
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:35,040
the federal level. Uh we'll talk about

1173
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:36,559
this more in just a second, but due

1174
00:48:36,559 --> 00:48:38,160
process under the 14th and the fifth

1175
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:40,720
amendments. Uh again, it just protects

1176
00:48:40,720 --> 00:48:42,640
people's rights as individuals and

1177
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:44,160
property owners through the process,

1178
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:46,960
requires fairness uh of all concerning

1179
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:49,040
how the resulting decision is made, and

1180
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:51,440
it avoids depriving the property of all

1181
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:54,240
economically viable uses.

1182
00:48:54,240 --> 00:48:56,160
uh may include such things as the Fair

1183
00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:58,000
Housing Act, uh the Americans with

1184
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:00,400
Disability Act, or the Religious Land

1185
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:03,839
Use Institutionalized Persons Act or UPA

1186
00:49:03,839 --> 00:49:05,760
may may affect certain decisions. But

1187
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:08,720
again, you would rely on on staff uh to

1188
00:49:08,720 --> 00:49:11,119
help you understand should one of those

1189
00:49:11,119 --> 00:49:12,559
should a request come up that's affected

1190
00:49:12,559 --> 00:49:18,230
by one of these federal protections.

1191
00:49:18,240 --> 00:49:20,240
Uh in being ethical, it's important to

1192
00:49:20,240 --> 00:49:22,319
remember the following. These are kind

1193
00:49:22,319 --> 00:49:24,480
of things that have always worked for me

1194
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:26,880
in my career. Don't forget zoning

1195
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:29,119
standards apply to all properties within

1196
00:49:29,119 --> 00:49:31,760
the municipal limits. Um, we've got a

1197
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:33,920
few empty seats here tonight. Uh, it

1198
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:35,680
does not mean that because those seats

1199
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:37,760
are empty, people don't care. Uh,

1200
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:39,760
there's an expectation that you as a

1201
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:41,760
commission will conduct your business

1202
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:43,680
whether I'm in the room or not, members

1203
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:45,680
of the community are in the room or not.

1204
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:48,000
And so, it's important to remember that

1205
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:50,400
uh just because you got a packed house

1206
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:52,000
uh doesn't mean that you run the meeting

1207
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:53,839
any differently. We just got one or two

1208
00:49:53,839 --> 00:49:55,520
that are sitting in the audience. There

1209
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:57,040
should be some consistency and some

1210
00:49:57,040 --> 00:49:59,680
predictability to your process.

1211
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:01,599
Uh familiarity with relevant state local

1212
00:50:01,599 --> 00:50:03,680
laws, development codes, and planning

1213
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:05,920
ordinances is required. You don't have

1214
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:08,160
to be a subject matter expert, but

1215
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:10,319
having a working knowledge of your code

1216
00:50:10,319 --> 00:50:13,119
or your subdivision ordinance. Uh you

1217
00:50:13,119 --> 00:50:14,640
know, make sure you've got that. Make

1218
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:16,400
sure you're reading that and your

1219
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:18,240
understanding. If you got questions,

1220
00:50:18,240 --> 00:50:21,520
you're asking for clarification.

1221
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:23,440
um the result of the decision that's

1222
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:26,640
made may not be popular uh but decision

1223
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:28,800
makers have to play by the rules. I like

1224
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:31,040
to say sometimes that uh the decisions

1225
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:32,640
that you make, it's not a popularity

1226
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:35,760
contest. I've got more people voting for

1227
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:37,920
me for homecoming king than somebody

1228
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:40,400
else. Uh that that's not a planning and

1229
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:42,800
zoning. Again, we'll get into it in more

1230
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:45,200
detail, but you're acting as judges and

1231
00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:47,119
you have to listen, be unbiased, and

1232
00:50:47,119 --> 00:50:49,119
listen to the evidence that's presented

1233
00:50:49,119 --> 00:50:51,599
in order to make a decision.

1234
00:50:51,599 --> 00:50:53,359
If you adhere to the criteria, more than

1235
00:50:53,359 --> 00:50:54,960
likely you and your community are going

1236
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:57,280
to stay out of trouble. And we'll talk

1237
00:50:57,280 --> 00:50:59,520
about avoiding conf excuse me, conflicts

1238
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:02,160
of interest uh and disclosing. When is

1239
00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:04,640
it necessary to disclose

1240
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:07,359
uh any personal or financial interests

1241
00:51:07,359 --> 00:51:10,160
which may create a conflict?

1242
00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:14,230
Questions?

1243
00:51:14,240 --> 00:51:16,800
» Okay. Yes, sir. Go ahead. about the uh

1244
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:18,960
I'll just call it a feedback loop

1245
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:20,559
between this commission and the

1246
00:51:20,559 --> 00:51:21,599
governing body.

1247
00:51:21,599 --> 00:51:22,319
>> Yes.

1248
00:51:22,319 --> 00:51:26,160
>> So when it seems that proposals are

1249
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:29,670
coming before us and they are let's

1250
00:51:29,670 --> 00:51:32,400
[clears throat] say um they are not

1251
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:35,040
specifically aspects of them are not

1252
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:36,800
specifically

1253
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:40,720
uh prohibited in our zoning code. then

1254
00:51:40,720 --> 00:51:44,240
um and we end up approving projects that

1255
00:51:44,240 --> 00:51:47,280
displease let's say a large number of

1256
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:50,800
people in the public. Um

1257
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:52,400
can you just comment I don't want you to

1258
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:55,440
go deep on this but say something about

1259
00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:58,079
if and when it's appropriate for this

1260
00:51:58,079 --> 00:52:00,000
commission to communicate to the

1261
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:03,440
governing body that such and such issue

1262
00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:06,079
seems inadequately addressed in the

1263
00:52:06,079 --> 00:52:08,640
code.

1264
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:10,880
Excellent question and I would just very

1265
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:14,960
briefly say that um I I think the idea

1266
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:18,559
or the the concept is to have a an

1267
00:52:18,559 --> 00:52:20,400
appointed body and a governing body that

1268
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:22,240
are working together. They're on the

1269
00:52:22,240 --> 00:52:24,720
same page, things of that nature. But uh

1270
00:52:24,720 --> 00:52:26,559
it's not uncommon sometimes for there to

1271
00:52:26,559 --> 00:52:30,880
be a disconnect or uh my words maybe a

1272
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:32,480
lack of appreciation at the governing

1273
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:34,559
body level. uh the planning and zoning

1274
00:52:34,559 --> 00:52:36,079
commission spent four hours talking

1275
00:52:36,079 --> 00:52:39,599
about uh you know building height or or

1276
00:52:39,599 --> 00:52:41,599
you know solar protection or whatever it

1277
00:52:41,599 --> 00:52:44,559
might be and it seems uh that once it

1278
00:52:44,559 --> 00:52:46,400
got to the governing body that that was

1279
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:48,000
an afterthought or that wasn't

1280
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:51,280
appreciated as much. Uh that happens.

1281
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:53,599
Um, I would advise or my suggestion

1282
00:52:53,599 --> 00:52:55,440
would be that if if a commission feels

1283
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:57,280
like a governing body is not listening

1284
00:52:57,280 --> 00:52:59,599
or vice versa, the governing body is

1285
00:52:59,599 --> 00:53:01,200
concerned about what goes on at the

1286
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:03,359
planning and zoning commission level.

1287
00:53:03,359 --> 00:53:05,520
Um, one of the great ways to do that is

1288
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:07,680
when you render a decision, you're

1289
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:10,559
outlining in writing uh why you made the

1290
00:53:10,559 --> 00:53:12,640
decision, what aspects or what

1291
00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:15,520
characteristics uh were considered. Uh

1292
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:17,599
what were considered is also

1293
00:53:17,599 --> 00:53:21,119
appropriate. Just again explaining how

1294
00:53:21,119 --> 00:53:24,720
you went from point A to point decision

1295
00:53:24,720 --> 00:53:27,680
is is advising and I get it. You know

1296
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:29,760
groups can be very dynamic and some

1297
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:32,640
groups get along better than others. Uh

1298
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:35,839
but it doesn't mean that you don't put

1299
00:53:35,839 --> 00:53:38,160
in the effort and the time to come up

1300
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:41,040
with a good decision, you know, good

1301
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:43,760
notice of decision that explains uh what

1302
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:45,200
you were what the commission was moved

1303
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:47,200
by and maybe what didn't hold quite as

1304
00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:48,559
much.

1305
00:53:48,559 --> 00:53:50,720
Thank you.

1306
00:53:50,720 --> 00:53:52,480
>> There was a question.

1307
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:55,200
>> Yes, sir. Yes.

1308
00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:58,640
Question comes to my mind about a

1309
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:02,319
concern that an applicant for a change

1310
00:54:02,319 --> 00:54:06,400
in the use of their property. Um there

1311
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:10,400
may be a history of of actions that

1312
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:13,680
cause neighbors of that applicant to

1313
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:16,319
have misgivings or reservations. And

1314
00:54:16,319 --> 00:54:20,400
they are to one commissioner. They know

1315
00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:21,920
that commissioner, they're old friends.

1316
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:24,640
They talked before and they feel that

1317
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:26,559
they know something that would have a

1318
00:54:26,559 --> 00:54:28,960
bearing or might have a bearing on that

1319
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:30,720
situation.

1320
00:54:30,720 --> 00:54:34,400
Um the preferred method of course is for

1321
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:37,280
that person to show up in due process

1322
00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:41,200
and present their findings in open form.

1323
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:44,480
But um but does it mean that when

1324
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:46,000
there's

1325
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:47,280
outach

1326
00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:50,240
from the neighborhood to a commissioner.

1327
00:54:50,240 --> 00:54:53,119
They are supposed to say no, I will not

1328
00:54:53,119 --> 00:54:56,960
hear that comment. You must give your

1329
00:54:56,960 --> 00:55:00,960
comment through the formal process. That

1330
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:06,559
is the structure of the due process. The

1331
00:55:06,559 --> 00:55:09,920
short answer would be yes. And I'll talk

1332
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:11,200
about that a little bit more. I'll give

1333
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:14,000
some specifics on that. But yes,

1334
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:15,520
theoretically,

1335
00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:19,520
uh, all all discovery, all discussion,

1336
00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:21,280
uh the presenting of evidence, the

1337
00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:23,760
reviewing of documents and materials and

1338
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:26,160
site plans and elevations, you know,

1339
00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:30,400
whatever. But the the culmination of all

1340
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:33,119
of that should occur in public at a

1341
00:55:33,119 --> 00:55:35,680
public hearing. Uh there's a legal issue

1342
00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:37,839
that's created if you got individuals

1343
00:55:37,839 --> 00:55:39,440
that are communicating with the decision

1344
00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:41,839
makers outside the public hearing. And

1345
00:55:41,839 --> 00:55:43,440
I'll I'll cover that in just a little

1346
00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:46,160
bit. Could could I just throw something

1347
00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:47,119
up?

1348
00:55:47,119 --> 00:55:50,400
>> Um, what about texting during a public

1349
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:53,839
meeting or emails?

1350
00:55:53,839 --> 00:55:57,280
Say a person is emailing a counselor or

1351
00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:00,720
a planning and zoning commission

1352
00:56:00,720 --> 00:56:02,880
and trying to influence them at the

1353
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:06,880
meeting. Now, is that legal?

1354
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:11,200
>> Uh, or does that come down to exparte

1355
00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:12,240
communication?

1356
00:56:12,240 --> 00:56:13,839
>> Correct. Yes. it would fall under

1357
00:56:13,839 --> 00:56:16,000
expporte which we'll talk about that's

1358
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:19,280
legal issues that I I was mentioning and

1359
00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:22,400
again just being quite candid uh from my

1360
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:25,760
experience it's also rude if you're a

1361
00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:28,400
decision maker and you keep checking

1362
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:30,480
your phone and whether it's you know

1363
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:32,720
you're surfing eBay or you're trying to

1364
00:56:32,720 --> 00:56:34,000
arrange your

1365
00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:34,559
>> yes

1366
00:56:34,559 --> 00:56:37,520
>> Jamaican vacation or you're uh getting

1367
00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:40,400
communication and and influence or

1368
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:43,280
information rather from not in the room

1369
00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:44,960
or even if they are in the room, they're

1370
00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:46,559
not standing at the at the podium and

1371
00:56:46,559 --> 00:56:48,000
speaking into the microphone.

1372
00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:48,319
>> Correct.

1373
00:56:48,319 --> 00:56:53,520
>> It it creates a legal issue, but it's just not we're not treating people

1374
00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:54,799
fairly in that scenario.

1375
00:56:54,799 --> 00:56:56,880
>> Right. So, how do you handle something

1376
00:56:56,880 --> 00:56:58,000
like that?

1377
00:56:58,000 --> 00:56:59,359
>> You walk up behind the offending

1378
00:56:59,359 --> 00:57:02,160
commissioner and

1379
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:04,240
I mean, you you do it professionally. I

1380
00:57:04,240 --> 00:57:06,079
mean, I you know, I'm just using you all

1381
00:57:06,079 --> 00:57:08,240
as an example here, but uh if

1382
00:57:08,240 --> 00:57:10,880
Commissioner BS, who has always been

1383
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:12,079
problematic,

1384
00:57:12,079 --> 00:57:15,440
>> uh if he continues to to send emails or

1385
00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:17,599
answer emails and get information from

1386
00:57:17,599 --> 00:57:19,680
folks that that aren't at the meeting on

1387
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:22,319
his laptop, then I would approach the

1388
00:57:22,319 --> 00:57:24,079
chairman and I would say, can we have a

1389
00:57:24,079 --> 00:57:26,799
conversation with him uh and and remind

1390
00:57:26,799 --> 00:57:28,799
him that, you know, if he could be

1391
00:57:28,799 --> 00:57:30,480
focused on on the speaker or the

1392
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:32,720
presentation or whatever the the issue

1393
00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:35,920
is that he's kind neglecting. Uh maybe

1394
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:38,160
the the city attorney, the village

1395
00:57:38,160 --> 00:57:39,760
attorney might be able to help in that

1396
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:41,839
scenario. But you want to again

1397
00:57:41,839 --> 00:57:46,720
encourage and reward good behavior and call out and as much as as quickly

1398
00:57:46,720 --> 00:57:49,119
as possible do away with with bad or

1399
00:57:49,119 --> 00:57:50,640
behavior

1400
00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:53,200
would be my suggestion.

1401
00:57:53,200 --> 00:57:55,920
Kind of an in between situation.

1402
00:57:55,920 --> 00:57:58,480
If I'm a commissioner and there's

1403
00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:01,520
someone that's interested in what we're

1404
00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:03,680
discussing at the moment and that

1405
00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:05,520
individual texts me because they're

1406
00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:08,400
unavailable,

1407
00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:10,799
would it be fair to me as commissioner

1408
00:58:10,799 --> 00:58:13,599
just to say to the whole group, I

1409
00:58:13,599 --> 00:58:15,440
received this communication from so and

1410
00:58:15,440 --> 00:58:19,440
so here's the input, etc. Or should I

1411
00:58:19,440 --> 00:58:22,000
just ignore it?

1412
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:23,520
is someone that wants to be there but

1413
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:26,079
can't be there but has some input.

1414
00:58:26,079 --> 00:58:27,119
>> Sure. Um

1415
00:58:27,119 --> 00:58:29,040
>> or should they just do it ahead of time

1416
00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:31,200
and not do it?

1417
00:58:31,200 --> 00:58:33,440
>> Right. And that would be my advice. I

1418
00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:35,520
mean I get it that the world is an

1419
00:58:35,520 --> 00:58:39,040
unpredictable place. Uh but if I can't

1420
00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:42,079
be here in person or I can't participate

1421
00:58:42,079 --> 00:58:44,480
via Zoom or or call in or do something

1422
00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:47,040
of that nature, I mean I guess

1423
00:58:47,040 --> 00:58:49,359
technically you could receive that

1424
00:58:49,359 --> 00:58:51,920
correspondence and then read it into the

1425
00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:53,760
record or make it part of the

1426
00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:57,200
discussion. To me, it's just it feels a

1427
00:58:57,200 --> 00:58:59,520
little wonky and you're almost violating

1428
00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:03,119
kind of the intent of that. Um, but it

1429
00:59:03,119 --> 00:59:05,200
does,

1430
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:07,520
again, my words, if it's important

1431
00:59:07,520 --> 00:59:10,720
enough for me to want my opinion to be

1432
00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:13,280
considered as as part of the entire

1433
00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:15,440
process, then I need to make sure that

1434
00:59:15,440 --> 00:59:17,520
I'm I'm in the room or that I've

1435
00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:19,440
provided written comment during the

1436
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:22,319
comment period or that I hire somebody

1437
00:59:22,319 --> 00:59:26,319
to come in and speak on my behalf.

1438
00:59:26,319 --> 00:59:30,000
It just again it kind of looks and

1439
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:32,559
smells a little bit wonky and so I would

1440
00:59:32,559 --> 00:59:34,720
just try to stay away from that as much

1441
00:59:34,720 --> 00:59:35,760
as possible.

1442
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:38,480
>> Actually I recently looked at a Scaffa

1443
00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:41,440
meeting and what they required were all

1444
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:43,920
cell phones to be shut off

1445
00:59:43,920 --> 00:59:45,119
>> prior to the meeting.

1446
00:59:45,119 --> 00:59:47,119
>> Sure. Sure. And as a commission, I'm

1447
00:59:47,119 --> 00:59:48,880
just throwing this out there, but if you

1448
00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:51,440
felt that uh that standard was

1449
00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:52,880
warranted, you could certainly adopt

1450
00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:54,640
that as part of your rules of procedure

1451
00:59:54,640 --> 00:59:56,400
and

1452
00:59:56,400 --> 00:59:59,520
looking at cell phones, laptops,

1453
00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:02,160
>> things of that nature.

1454
01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:05,200
>> Yes, sir. Following up on Commissioner

1455
01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:07,760
Boltz,

1456
01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:10,559
there's been occasion when we have heard

1457
01:00:10,559 --> 01:00:14,559
from the community a problem

1458
01:00:14,559 --> 01:00:17,359
um that

1459
01:00:17,359 --> 01:00:19,599
um

1460
01:00:19,599 --> 01:00:24,559
can only be handled by an alteration of a village ordinance.

1461
01:00:24,559 --> 01:00:29,839
>> Okay. So, what we've tried to do is

1462
01:00:29,839 --> 01:00:33,040
both put it in listen the member of the

1463
01:00:33,040 --> 01:00:36,799
community at the Coraleno forum. So it

1464
01:00:36,799 --> 01:00:40,000
might not have been associated with an

1465
01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:44,640
application. It was coral forum but

1466
01:00:44,640 --> 01:00:48,400
something that the village uh admin uh

1467
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:52,880
council needs to deal with. And so uh

1468
01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:56,480
sometimes we've taken a vote and said

1469
01:00:56,480 --> 01:00:58,720
we'd like you to consider this or

1470
01:00:58,720 --> 01:01:02,160
consider that. A lot of times we staff

1471
01:01:02,160 --> 01:01:06,319
to to look into it further and to engage

1472
01:01:06,319 --> 01:01:08,720
with the administration.

1473
01:01:08,720 --> 01:01:11,040
>> So, there's all a variety of ways of

1474
01:01:11,040 --> 01:01:13,760
doing this, but but I think what I heard

1475
01:01:13,760 --> 01:01:20,160
from the commissioner is, you know, when we hear an application

1476
01:01:20,160 --> 01:01:25,040
that the ordinances are not clear about,

1477
01:01:25,040 --> 01:01:27,839
shouldn't we, you know, take it upon

1478
01:01:27,839 --> 01:01:31,680
ourselves to alert the council the

1479
01:01:31,680 --> 01:01:34,240
village uh administration.

1480
01:01:34,240 --> 01:01:38,400
>> Um yes, I mean just as a matter of of uh

1481
01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:40,160
government efficiency, I I think that's

1482
01:01:40,160 --> 01:01:41,440
important and that can be accomplished

1483
01:01:41,440 --> 01:01:43,200
in any number of ways. Whether it's it's

1484
01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:48,160
a written decision uh where that's you write that out and you clearly

1485
01:01:48,160 --> 01:01:49,920
somebody writes it out on your behalf,

1486
01:01:49,920 --> 01:01:51,680
but the decision that's made the

1487
01:01:51,680 --> 01:01:53,440
concerns that are raised at the at the

1488
01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:57,599
planning and zoning commission uh are clearly outlined within the notice

1489
01:01:57,599 --> 01:02:00,720
of decision. You can rely on staff uh to

1490
01:02:00,720 --> 01:02:03,680
do that. Um, you know, again, I don't

1491
01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:05,040
want to get too far in the weeds, but

1492
01:02:05,040 --> 01:02:07,440
depending on what the issue is, it might

1493
01:02:07,440 --> 01:02:09,599
be appropriate for members of the

1494
01:02:09,599 --> 01:02:12,240
commission uh to to reach out directly

1495
01:02:12,240 --> 01:02:15,200
to to their uh to the elected officials.

1496
01:02:15,200 --> 01:02:17,040
If it's legislative in nature, if it's

1497
01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:19,119
something if it's an ordinance change

1498
01:02:19,119 --> 01:02:21,280
that needs to take place, not specific

1499
01:02:21,280 --> 01:02:24,079
to a case or particular piece of

1500
01:02:24,079 --> 01:02:26,559
property, but if it's something uh the

1501
01:02:26,559 --> 01:02:30,960
village wants to adopt um um short-term

1502
01:02:30,960 --> 01:02:33,119
rental regulations that, you know,

1503
01:02:33,119 --> 01:02:34,480
community members have expressed

1504
01:02:34,480 --> 01:02:36,000
concerns about that or they're in

1505
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:37,280
support of that and there's nothing on

1506
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:39,440
the books that would allow for that.

1507
01:02:39,440 --> 01:02:41,520
Certainly, it would be appropriate for

1508
01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:44,319
the commission uh to to reach out to the

1509
01:02:44,319 --> 01:02:46,880
elected officials and say, "Hey, um you

1510
01:02:46,880 --> 01:02:49,119
know, we've heard complaints or we have

1511
01:02:49,119 --> 01:02:52,559
ideas or we've got uh issues on this.

1512
01:02:52,559 --> 01:02:54,960
Can we create an ordinance or can we

1513
01:02:54,960 --> 01:02:56,880
perform a study that would work on

1514
01:02:56,880 --> 01:02:59,680
something of that nature?" That that's

1515
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:02,160
good government.

1516
01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:04,720
>> Yes, ma'am. So my concern with part of

1517
01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:06,160
what you said in the beginning there and

1518
01:03:06,160 --> 01:03:08,319
some comments I've heard earlier

1519
01:03:08,319 --> 01:03:09,920
>> is

1520
01:03:09,920 --> 01:03:13,119
my um

1521
01:03:13,119 --> 01:03:15,280
understanding was that

1522
01:03:15,280 --> 01:03:17,440
>> if we came across something that we

1523
01:03:17,440 --> 01:03:20,720
thought the council should address that

1524
01:03:20,720 --> 01:03:23,920
it would be the commission as a whole

1525
01:03:23,920 --> 01:03:27,119
that would send that to the council, not

1526
01:03:27,119 --> 01:03:29,440
each individual

1527
01:03:29,440 --> 01:03:32,720
>> um commission member saying I have issue

1528
01:03:32,720 --> 01:03:34,079
that I want you to address because I'm

1529
01:03:34,079 --> 01:03:36,480
on the planning and zoning commission.

1530
01:03:36,480 --> 01:03:38,160
It doesn't seem to me to be appropriate

1531
01:03:38,160 --> 01:03:40,880
for individual

1532
01:03:40,880 --> 01:03:42,559
people to be doing that.

1533
01:03:42,559 --> 01:03:44,319
>> Understood. And I I apologize for any

1534
01:03:44,319 --> 01:03:47,209
confusion. Yes, I would agree that if

1535
01:03:47,209 --> 01:03:49,039
[clears throat] the commission, the

1536
01:03:49,039 --> 01:03:56,319
membership of the commission has a an issue

1537
01:03:56,319 --> 01:03:59,359
that you know a letter signed by the

1538
01:03:59,359 --> 01:04:02,079
chair or signed by all the commissioners

1539
01:04:02,079 --> 01:04:04,160
or how whatever form uh that

1540
01:04:04,160 --> 01:04:06,400
communication takes place is most

1541
01:04:06,400 --> 01:04:09,760
appropriate. However, there is some and

1542
01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:11,200
again I apologize because I feel like

1543
01:04:11,200 --> 01:04:13,119
I'm getting too far down into details on

1544
01:04:13,119 --> 01:04:16,400
this, but there is some allowance uh

1545
01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:19,359
without any sort of impropriy where if

1546
01:04:19,359 --> 01:04:22,559
you bump into uh the mayor uh at the

1547
01:04:22,559 --> 01:04:25,359
coffee shop uh and you want to make sure

1548
01:04:25,359 --> 01:04:27,599
he got the email or the letter about the

1549
01:04:27,599 --> 01:04:31,119
short-term rental ordinance uh that that

1550
01:04:31,119 --> 01:04:33,920
doesn't violate the law and again

1551
01:04:33,920 --> 01:04:36,334
it's it's specific

1552
01:04:36,334 --> 01:04:36,480
>> [clears throat]

1553
01:04:36,480 --> 01:04:38,799
>> uh but in that scenario there there's

1554
01:04:38,799 --> 01:04:40,559
nothing wrong with a commissioner or a

1555
01:04:40,559 --> 01:04:43,760
couple commissioners saying hey Mr. Veer

1556
01:04:43,760 --> 01:04:45,200
I just want to make sure you're aware of

1557
01:04:45,200 --> 01:04:47,599
this. Uh or attending the governing body

1558
01:04:47,599 --> 01:04:50,240
hearing uh as a member of the community

1559
01:04:50,240 --> 01:04:52,960
and just expressing uh you know in my

1560
01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:54,559
role as as a member of the planning and

1561
01:04:54,559 --> 01:04:57,280
zoning commission uh we've heard that

1562
01:04:57,280 --> 01:04:58,960
there are issues with this and want to

1563
01:04:58,960 --> 01:05:01,039
make sure that uh that the governing

1564
01:05:01,039 --> 01:05:02,640
body is aware of that.

1565
01:05:02,640 --> 01:05:04,720
>> See I get concerned because then if you

1566
01:05:04,720 --> 01:05:06,720
say well they're individually going to

1567
01:05:06,720 --> 01:05:10,720
the council say you know and if they're

1568
01:05:10,720 --> 01:05:13,599
supposedly representing

1569
01:05:13,599 --> 01:05:16,400
opinion of all of us. We should know

1570
01:05:16,400 --> 01:05:17,440
what that is.

1571
01:05:17,440 --> 01:05:18,079
>> Absolutely.

1572
01:05:18,079 --> 01:05:20,640
>> And and I don't think I mean there are

1573
01:05:20,640 --> 01:05:22,640
questions about if being on the

1574
01:05:22,640 --> 01:05:24,240
commission takes away some of your

1575
01:05:24,240 --> 01:05:26,319
individual rights, but I think they

1576
01:05:26,319 --> 01:05:27,599
would need to make it clear that they're

1577
01:05:27,599 --> 01:05:29,599
there as a member of the community and

1578
01:05:29,599 --> 01:05:32,000
not from the commission unless we have

1579
01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:34,480
all said we want you to go represent us.

1580
01:05:34,480 --> 01:05:36,400
>> Yes, ma'am. I am in complete agreement

1581
01:05:36,400 --> 01:05:38,079
with you. The distinction or the

1582
01:05:38,079 --> 01:05:40,960
difference that I'm making is

1583
01:05:40,960 --> 01:05:44,000
>> from a legal standpoint

1584
01:05:44,000 --> 01:05:46,880
There may be a possibility that if you

1585
01:05:46,880 --> 01:05:51,920
informally uh bump into the mayor and want to talk about that that it

1586
01:05:51,920 --> 01:05:54,240
doesn't violate any legal standard.

1587
01:05:54,240 --> 01:05:56,559
However, from an operational

1588
01:05:56,559 --> 01:05:58,799
perspective, I think it's much cleaner

1589
01:05:58,799 --> 01:06:01,440
and easier and keep guarantees that you

1590
01:06:01,440 --> 01:06:05,039
stay out of any sort of possible problem

1591
01:06:05,039 --> 01:06:08,240
if you act as as a unified body uh when

1592
01:06:08,240 --> 01:06:10,960
it comes to a situation like that. So

1593
01:06:10,960 --> 01:06:13,039
>> because my practical concerned about oh

1594
01:06:13,039 --> 01:06:15,839
hey mayor did you get our email is

1595
01:06:15,839 --> 01:06:18,160
generally conversations don't end there

1596
01:06:18,160 --> 01:06:20,799
they don't the mayor doesn't say oh yes

1597
01:06:20,799 --> 01:06:23,119
I mean he may say oh no what did it say

1598
01:06:23,119 --> 01:06:25,440
I guess I missed that then you lead into

1599
01:06:25,440 --> 01:06:26,400
a whole

1600
01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:28,720
>> and you're getting dangerously close to

1601
01:06:28,720 --> 01:06:29,119
me

1602
01:06:29,119 --> 01:06:31,520
>> I think it's better not to do that

1603
01:06:31,520 --> 01:06:33,119
>> and I would agree and I apologize the

1604
01:06:33,119 --> 01:06:34,880
only distinction I was trying to make

1605
01:06:34,880 --> 01:06:37,119
that that from a legal standpoint it

1606
01:06:37,119 --> 01:06:39,599
might be uh that it doesn't create a

1607
01:06:39,599 --> 01:06:42,079
problem but from an operational you

1608
01:06:42,079 --> 01:06:44,079
know, how are we going to do this in

1609
01:06:44,079 --> 01:06:46,720
practice? I would just again if if the

1610
01:06:46,720 --> 01:06:49,280
need comes or or the issue is such that

1611
01:06:49,280 --> 01:06:52,000
it requires some sort of formal

1612
01:06:52,000 --> 01:06:53,760
notification or some sort of formal

1613
01:06:53,760 --> 01:06:55,359
communication with the governing body

1614
01:06:55,359 --> 01:06:58,960
that that's done as as you know a

1615
01:06:58,960 --> 01:07:02,000
unified front rather than one

1616
01:07:02,000 --> 01:07:03,200
commissioner goes and another

1617
01:07:03,200 --> 01:07:05,039
commissioner goes and that that gets

1618
01:07:05,039 --> 01:07:07,119
messy and it also creates a perception

1619
01:07:07,119 --> 01:07:09,119
problem sometimes too. may be completely

1620
01:07:09,119 --> 01:07:11,440
legal, but it may look to the public

1621
01:07:11,440 --> 01:07:13,599
like something's going, you know, deals

1622
01:07:13,599 --> 01:07:15,200
are being made, backroom deals are being

1623
01:07:15,200 --> 01:07:17,280
made or things are being discussed that,

1624
01:07:17,280 --> 01:07:19,359
you know, I'm suspicious of,

1625
01:07:19,359 --> 01:07:21,280
>> right?

1626
01:07:21,280 --> 01:07:22,559
>> It's the appearance.

1627
01:07:22,559 --> 01:07:24,079
>> The appearance. Yes, ma'am. Very

1628
01:07:24,079 --> 01:07:26,480
important.

1629
01:07:26,480 --> 01:07:34,069
>> Okay.

1630
01:07:34,079 --> 01:07:38,480
if you would please. I think my clicker

1631
01:07:38,480 --> 01:07:41,510
>> I

1632
01:07:41,520 --> 01:07:44,000
» So good all good questions. Thank you

1633
01:07:44,000 --> 01:07:47,599
for those. Uh just some tips uh some

1634
01:07:47,599 --> 01:07:51,200
make sure we talk about uh avoiding or

1635
01:07:51,200 --> 01:07:54,400
navigating rather ethical dilemmas. So

1636
01:07:54,400 --> 01:07:56,880
some pretty obvious examples here. Uh

1637
01:07:56,880 --> 01:07:58,640
everybody knows that accepting gifts or

1638
01:07:58,640 --> 01:08:01,440
favors in order to vote a certain way is

1639
01:08:01,440 --> 01:08:03,680
not something uh a planning commissioner

1640
01:08:03,680 --> 01:08:06,000
should engage in. Uh voting on matters

1641
01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:07,680
that will provide individual financial

1642
01:08:07,680 --> 01:08:09,280
gain or benefit is something you should

1643
01:08:09,280 --> 01:08:11,760
stay away from. Uh discussions of

1644
01:08:11,760 --> 01:08:13,920
project details outside the scheduled

1645
01:08:13,920 --> 01:08:16,239
public hearing uh creates an ethical

1646
01:08:16,239 --> 01:08:18,719
issue. Don't engage in that behavior. Uh

1647
01:08:18,719 --> 01:08:20,319
if you've got a personal relationship

1648
01:08:20,319 --> 01:08:21,759
with an applicant, an agent, a member of

1649
01:08:21,759 --> 01:08:24,319
the a participating party, that in and

1650
01:08:24,319 --> 01:08:26,319
of itself is not a problem. But you

1651
01:08:26,319 --> 01:08:28,159
certainly should be open and honest to

1652
01:08:28,159 --> 01:08:30,480
say while I don't like my

1653
01:08:30,480 --> 01:08:32,880
brother-in-law, he is the applicant on

1654
01:08:32,880 --> 01:08:34,480
this particular case and I'm going to go

1655
01:08:34,480 --> 01:08:37,440
ahead and recuse myself um because I

1656
01:08:37,440 --> 01:08:38,880
don't want there to be any appearance of

1657
01:08:38,880 --> 01:08:41,600
impropriy. Uh always take the take the

1658
01:08:41,600 --> 01:08:43,920
high road on situations like that. But

1659
01:08:43,920 --> 01:08:47,679
those are pretty easy, right?

1660
01:08:47,679 --> 01:08:48,400
>> Mine's working.

1661
01:08:48,400 --> 01:08:48,960
>> Oh, good.

1662
01:08:48,960 --> 01:08:50,560
>> Yes. Thank you. I think you just went to

1663
01:08:50,560 --> 01:08:51,839
sleep there for a second. Sorry about

1664
01:08:51,839 --> 01:08:53,120
that.

1665
01:08:53,120 --> 01:08:55,600
>> How about some not so obvious

1666
01:08:55,600 --> 01:08:58,480
ethical issues.

1667
01:08:58,480 --> 01:08:59,920
Uh, how about advising a community

1668
01:08:59,920 --> 01:09:01,600
member on how they should prepare their

1669
01:09:01,600 --> 01:09:03,440
application?

1670
01:09:03,440 --> 01:09:04,880
You're at Walgreens on a Saturday

1671
01:09:04,880 --> 01:09:06,799
morning and somebody says, "Aren't you

1672
01:09:06,799 --> 01:09:08,239
the chair of the planning and zoning

1673
01:09:08,239 --> 01:09:10,239
commission? You do a great job." Hey,

1674
01:09:10,239 --> 01:09:12,799
listen. Um, I'm gonna I'm thinking about

1675
01:09:12,799 --> 01:09:14,400
asking for a variance. I want to build

1676
01:09:14,400 --> 01:09:16,560
an addition on the back of my house.

1677
01:09:16,560 --> 01:09:18,640
What What do I need to say? What should

1678
01:09:18,640 --> 01:09:20,560
I fill out on my application so that I

1679
01:09:20,560 --> 01:09:21,839
make sure that I get approved? Because,

1680
01:09:21,839 --> 01:09:22,960
you know, the stuff like the back of

1681
01:09:22,960 --> 01:09:24,799
your head, right?

1682
01:09:24,799 --> 01:09:28,560
Do you engage in that conversation? No.

1683
01:09:28,560 --> 01:09:30,960
Uh answering phone calls, emails, or

1684
01:09:30,960 --> 01:09:32,880
text messages with questions from the

1685
01:09:32,880 --> 01:09:34,319
community member about a particular

1686
01:09:34,319 --> 01:09:36,159
piece of property. I see that five acres

1687
01:09:36,159 --> 01:09:39,120
there at the corner of Corales Road and

1688
01:09:39,120 --> 01:09:42,400
Applewood uh is going up for sale. Uh

1689
01:09:42,400 --> 01:09:43,839
Commissioner, do you know what the

1690
01:09:43,839 --> 01:09:45,520
zoning designation is for that? And

1691
01:09:45,520 --> 01:09:47,040
could I put a bed and breakfast in

1692
01:09:47,040 --> 01:09:49,199
there?

1693
01:09:49,199 --> 01:09:50,719
That could create a problem. Stay away

1694
01:09:50,719 --> 01:09:54,159
from that. Um this is big one,

1695
01:09:54,159 --> 01:09:56,640
conducting site visits in order to to

1696
01:09:56,640 --> 01:09:58,960
get a feel for the property. I want to I

1697
01:09:58,960 --> 01:10:01,520
want to listen uh to how much traffic

1698
01:10:01,520 --> 01:10:04,320
affects this particular location or I

1699
01:10:04,320 --> 01:10:07,920
want to see how many trees are are on

1700
01:10:07,920 --> 01:10:09,840
the property or I want to touch the

1701
01:10:09,840 --> 01:10:11,280
dirt. I'm just one of those people that

1702
01:10:11,280 --> 01:10:13,199
likes to to feel it with my hand. So,

1703
01:10:13,199 --> 01:10:14,480
I'm going to take a trip out to the

1704
01:10:14,480 --> 01:10:17,520
property. That creates an ethical dile

1705
01:10:17,520 --> 01:10:18,880
that creates a problem. We'll talk about

1706
01:10:18,880 --> 01:10:21,120
that more in a question about that.

1707
01:10:21,120 --> 01:10:23,440
Sure. Suppose the

1708
01:10:23,440 --> 01:10:26,239
In a public forum, all the commissioners

1709
01:10:26,239 --> 01:10:28,640
said, you know, we need to get a better

1710
01:10:28,640 --> 01:10:30,480
understanding of what the applicant

1711
01:10:30,480 --> 01:10:35,360
requesting. Therefore, we as a whole

1712
01:10:35,360 --> 01:10:38,719
field trip to that site and look to see

1713
01:10:38,719 --> 01:10:41,840
what's going on. Is that

1714
01:10:41,840 --> 01:10:43,840
so

1715
01:10:43,840 --> 01:10:45,760
should stay away from it? But as a

1716
01:10:45,760 --> 01:10:47,600
whole, the commissioners agree that

1717
01:10:47,600 --> 01:10:53,510
that's good feedback.

1718
01:10:53,520 --> 01:10:55,120
» That's correct. And and the distinction,

1719
01:10:55,120 --> 01:10:56,960
very good question. The distinction is

1720
01:10:56,960 --> 01:10:59,520
an individual commissioner or a couple

1721
01:10:59,520 --> 01:11:01,440
of commissioners taking it upon

1722
01:11:01,440 --> 01:11:03,360
themselves to conduct that site visit

1723
01:11:03,360 --> 01:11:07,520
versus the group deciding and you have

1724
01:11:07,520 --> 01:11:09,120
to invite the public.

1725
01:11:09,120 --> 01:11:09,600
>> Yeah.

1726
01:11:09,600 --> 01:11:11,679
>> Uh to to attend a site visit. It may

1727
01:11:11,679 --> 01:11:14,800
come up that a site visit is deemed

1728
01:11:14,800 --> 01:11:17,199
necessary. But again, this is not

1729
01:11:17,199 --> 01:11:19,280
something where you as a commissioner

1730
01:11:19,280 --> 01:11:21,760
would go out and and do an invest an

1731
01:11:21,760 --> 01:11:24,080
independent investigation to try and

1732
01:11:24,080 --> 01:11:26,480
gain some facts. Uh because as we'll

1733
01:11:26,480 --> 01:11:27,760
talk about in just a minute, that

1734
01:11:27,760 --> 01:11:30,000
constitutes exparte communication, which

1735
01:11:30,000 --> 01:11:32,640
you can't be doing as it relates to the

1736
01:11:32,640 --> 01:11:34,640
matters that come before you.

1737
01:11:34,640 --> 01:11:36,400
>> Can I make a quick comment on that?

1738
01:11:36,400 --> 01:11:39,600
>> Sure. Because um in a case like that, if

1739
01:11:39,600 --> 01:11:40,880
all of the commissioners were going to

1740
01:11:40,880 --> 01:11:42,719
do a site visit, I would have to do the

1741
01:11:42,719 --> 01:11:45,040
public notice.

1742
01:11:45,040 --> 01:11:46,640
Okay? I would have to do a public

1743
01:11:46,640 --> 01:11:49,840
notice. Um in fact, there was something

1744
01:11:49,840 --> 01:11:51,760
recently where it was understood that

1745
01:11:51,760 --> 01:11:54,080
probably a lot of counselors were going

1746
01:11:54,080 --> 01:11:57,679
to attend and the clerk's office put up

1747
01:11:57,679 --> 01:12:00,480
possible quorum just just to let the

1748
01:12:00,480 --> 01:12:02,000
public know that a bunch of counselors

1749
01:12:02,000 --> 01:12:03,520
were going to be in one place at one

1750
01:12:03,520 --> 01:12:06,800
time. Um and and it would say and in the

1751
01:12:06,800 --> 01:12:08,320
other instance in this instance I don't

1752
01:12:08,320 --> 01:12:10,480
think I could say that there might not

1753
01:12:10,480 --> 01:12:11,920
be or that that there's not going to be

1754
01:12:11,920 --> 01:12:14,480
any discussions made but uh or decisions

1755
01:12:14,480 --> 01:12:16,159
made. There shouldn't be any decisions

1756
01:12:16,159 --> 01:12:19,679
made on the fly. Um so it's kind of

1757
01:12:19,679 --> 01:12:21,920
treading dangerously a little bit.

1758
01:12:21,920 --> 01:12:23,920
>> Right. Again it's very similar to the

1759
01:12:23,920 --> 01:12:25,360
communication issue that came up

1760
01:12:25,360 --> 01:12:27,840
earlier. It's possible there are ways to

1761
01:12:27,840 --> 01:12:30,080
do it. I am aware of one community.

1762
01:12:30,080 --> 01:12:31,600
There may be more, but I'm aware of one

1763
01:12:31,600 --> 01:12:33,760
community in New Mexico uh that

1764
01:12:33,760 --> 01:12:36,719
schedules a a site visit uh and they

1765
01:12:36,719 --> 01:12:39,120
literally take a school bus and they put

1766
01:12:39,120 --> 01:12:40,960
all the commissioners on that on that

1767
01:12:40,960 --> 01:12:43,199
bus and any members of the public that

1768
01:12:43,199 --> 01:12:45,840
wish to participate uh they have very uh

1769
01:12:45,840 --> 01:12:47,679
specific rules that they're not to talk

1770
01:12:47,679 --> 01:12:50,400
about the case uh during the site visit

1771
01:12:50,400 --> 01:12:52,880
portion but they drive to property A and

1772
01:12:52,880 --> 01:12:55,520
then to property B and then property C.

1773
01:12:55,520 --> 01:12:59,120
Uh but uh that is not typical

1774
01:12:59,120 --> 01:13:02,560
uh of the way site visits should they be

1775
01:13:02,560 --> 01:13:04,400
deemed necessary site visits should

1776
01:13:04,400 --> 01:13:06,239
occur.

1777
01:13:06,239 --> 01:13:07,679
>> Yes sir.

1778
01:13:07,679 --> 01:13:15,280
>> So if commissioner my neighbor is going

1779
01:13:15,280 --> 01:13:19,031
for some issue I should recuse myself.

1780
01:13:19,031 --> 01:13:19,679
[clears throat]

1781
01:13:19,679 --> 01:13:21,840
>> Uh I and that's I think you know

1782
01:13:21,840 --> 01:13:23,520
generally speaking again painting with a

1783
01:13:23,520 --> 01:13:25,199
broad brush here but I think that would

1784
01:13:25,199 --> 01:13:28,000
be appropriate. But uh if you have a

1785
01:13:28,000 --> 01:13:30,080
situation where this comes up sometimes

1786
01:13:30,080 --> 01:13:32,320
where you as a commissioner are familiar

1787
01:13:32,320 --> 01:13:34,640
with a a subject property that's on the

1788
01:13:34,640 --> 01:13:37,040
agenda because you drive by it every day

1789
01:13:37,040 --> 01:13:38,800
when you take the kids to school or go

1790
01:13:38,800 --> 01:13:39,520
to work or whatever.

1791
01:13:39,520 --> 01:13:41,120
>> That's going to be my next question.

1792
01:13:41,120 --> 01:13:43,679
>> That is okay. The problem is created

1793
01:13:43,679 --> 01:13:47,760
when an individual decision maker makes

1794
01:13:47,760 --> 01:13:51,040
a singular purposeful trip to the site.

1795
01:13:51,040 --> 01:13:52,560
you drive by it and you're familiar with

1796
01:13:52,560 --> 01:13:54,400
it or you lived in the community for 53

1797
01:13:54,400 --> 01:13:56,239
years and you just you know it used to

1798
01:13:56,239 --> 01:13:58,239
be the old garage and it was a saloon

1799
01:13:58,239 --> 01:14:00,480
for a while and I know that property

1800
01:14:00,480 --> 01:14:03,440
very well. That's different than uh

1801
01:14:03,440 --> 01:14:05,600
going out and again conducting an

1802
01:14:05,600 --> 01:14:10,390
independent investigation.

1803
01:14:10,400 --> 01:14:12,159
Okay,

1804
01:14:12,159 --> 01:14:14,640
good questions.

1805
01:14:14,640 --> 01:14:17,199
So, uh, my scenario here, I'm not

1806
01:14:17,199 --> 01:14:19,199
getting the look. I'm not getting a

1807
01:14:19,199 --> 01:14:22,480
confused look, uh, on your faces, but

1808
01:14:22,480 --> 01:14:25,120
I'm not telling you, uh, or excuse me, I

1809
01:14:25,120 --> 01:14:26,719
am telling you as as a commission

1810
01:14:26,719 --> 01:14:28,960
member, I'm not telling you you can't

1811
01:14:28,960 --> 01:14:30,800
talk to the community. You just have to

1812
01:14:30,800 --> 01:14:34,400
be careful about when you do it and how

1813
01:14:34,400 --> 01:14:36,800
you do it. Uh, we'll talk about this a

1814
01:14:36,800 --> 01:14:38,640
little bit more in just a second, but

1815
01:14:38,640 --> 01:14:41,280
again, you're acting as a judge and you

1816
01:14:41,280 --> 01:14:43,760
have to be judgeike.

1817
01:14:43,760 --> 01:14:46,560
So, uh, I get a speeding ticket. Uh, is

1818
01:14:46,560 --> 01:14:48,239
it okay for me to go knock on the

1819
01:14:48,239 --> 01:14:50,800
judge's door or call him up in his

1820
01:14:50,800 --> 01:14:52,239
chambers and want to talk to him about

1821
01:14:52,239 --> 01:14:54,080
my speeding ticket and how the officer

1822
01:14:54,080 --> 01:14:56,239
aired when he wrote me a ticket for

1823
01:14:56,239 --> 01:14:59,040
doing 65 and a 45? No. The judge would

1824
01:14:59,040 --> 01:15:01,120
never talk to me, right? The same

1825
01:15:01,120 --> 01:15:03,679
concept needs to apply to planning and

1826
01:15:03,679 --> 01:15:05,520
zoning matters that come before this

1827
01:15:05,520 --> 01:15:08,870
commission.

1828
01:15:08,880 --> 01:15:11,840
Um, so what do you do? Well, you rely on

1829
01:15:11,840 --> 01:15:13,840
staff. And whether that's staff of one

1830
01:15:13,840 --> 01:15:17,679
or that's an a team of five or more. Uh

1831
01:15:17,679 --> 01:15:19,600
you rely on staff and or the

1832
01:15:19,600 --> 01:15:22,719
administration to assist you. Um you get

1833
01:15:22,719 --> 01:15:24,960
questions, you get emails, you get phone

1834
01:15:24,960 --> 01:15:28,480
calls. Uh refer those pass those along.

1835
01:15:28,480 --> 01:15:31,760
Give those to uh to Lori, give those to

1836
01:15:31,760 --> 01:15:34,880
give folks the the phone number for

1837
01:15:34,880 --> 01:15:37,040
planning and zoning or direct them to

1838
01:15:37,040 --> 01:15:39,120
the website. But you want to make sure

1839
01:15:39,120 --> 01:15:41,679
that your involvement in those

1840
01:15:41,679 --> 01:15:44,960
situations is limited and that you're

1841
01:15:44,960 --> 01:15:46,480
again essentially keeping your hands

1842
01:15:46,480 --> 01:15:49,040
clean by passing that along to staff.

1843
01:15:49,040 --> 01:15:52,159
That that's their job. Uh very quickly

1844
01:15:52,159 --> 01:15:54,000
it's important to know what staff does.

1845
01:15:54,000 --> 01:15:57,600
I can tell you that uh before a meeting

1846
01:15:57,600 --> 01:15:59,600
staff is consulting with applicants.

1847
01:15:59,600 --> 01:16:01,520
Rarely if ever does an application come

1848
01:16:01,520 --> 01:16:04,239
in that staff has no idea that somebody

1849
01:16:04,239 --> 01:16:09,280
was going to file. Usually there's inquiries, there's emails, uh

1850
01:16:09,280 --> 01:16:11,679
sometimes it's the result of enforce

1851
01:16:11,679 --> 01:16:14,000
code enforcement action. Uh but staff

1852
01:16:14,000 --> 01:16:16,560
typically has a pretty pretty good idea

1853
01:16:16,560 --> 01:16:18,640
uh of who's getting ready to or who's

1854
01:16:18,640 --> 01:16:20,400
submitting an application to come before

1855
01:16:20,400 --> 01:16:22,560
the planning and zoning commission. Uh

1856
01:16:22,560 --> 01:16:24,719
they're engaged in public outreach. Uh

1857
01:16:24,719 --> 01:16:26,320
advertisements are sent to the

1858
01:16:26,320 --> 01:16:29,040
newspaper, legal ads, uh mailouts.

1859
01:16:29,040 --> 01:16:30,400
Staff's making sure those are done

1860
01:16:30,400 --> 01:16:32,960
correctly. Uh providing one or more

1861
01:16:32,960 --> 01:16:34,719
signs for an applicant to post on the

1862
01:16:34,719 --> 01:16:36,880
property, including a report of some

1863
01:16:36,880 --> 01:16:40,000
form based on the criteria in the code.

1864
01:16:40,000 --> 01:16:42,000
They may be giving you a recommendation.

1865
01:16:42,000 --> 01:16:44,480
It appears based on review that this

1866
01:16:44,480 --> 01:16:46,239
proposal meets the applicable criteria

1867
01:16:46,239 --> 01:16:48,000
of the zoning code and the planning

1868
01:16:48,000 --> 01:16:49,600
department is recommending approval.

1869
01:16:49,600 --> 01:16:51,840
Maybe something like that. That all

1870
01:16:51,840 --> 01:16:53,440
occurs before the hearing. During the

1871
01:16:53,440 --> 01:16:56,480
hearing, they're making sure uh that the

1872
01:16:56,480 --> 01:16:58,239
signup sheets are kept. That's part of

1873
01:16:58,239 --> 01:17:00,159
the Inspection of Public Records Act

1874
01:17:00,159 --> 01:17:01,840
requirements and the Open Meeting Act

1875
01:17:01,840 --> 01:17:04,080
requirements. uh that minutes are being

1876
01:17:04,080 --> 01:17:06,400
kept, accurate minutes are being kept.

1877
01:17:06,400 --> 01:17:07,920
Uh and they're also working on the

1878
01:17:07,920 --> 01:17:09,760
notice of decision. Not exactly sure how

1879
01:17:09,760 --> 01:17:11,520
you all do it here. It could be

1880
01:17:11,520 --> 01:17:13,840
something that's prepared by staff. Uh

1881
01:17:13,840 --> 01:17:15,520
you may be a decision based on

1882
01:17:15,520 --> 01:17:17,040
recommendations that you find in your

1883
01:17:17,040 --> 01:17:19,600
staff report. Uh but again, staff is

1884
01:17:19,600 --> 01:17:21,920
making sure after a decision is made

1885
01:17:21,920 --> 01:17:23,440
that the that the mail out that the

1886
01:17:23,440 --> 01:17:25,920
notice is sent out in accordance with

1887
01:17:25,920 --> 01:17:28,159
the board. [clears throat]

1888
01:17:28,159 --> 01:17:30,320
And then after the meeting, uh it's

1889
01:17:30,320 --> 01:17:32,880
certainly possible and plausible for uh

1890
01:17:32,880 --> 01:17:34,880
reports or updates of some sort to be

1891
01:17:34,880 --> 01:17:36,960
given to the administration.

1892
01:17:36,960 --> 01:17:39,840
Uh staff also works uh just because

1893
01:17:39,840 --> 01:17:41,280
people get a decision at the planning

1894
01:17:41,280 --> 01:17:43,040
and zoning commission uh doesn't mean

1895
01:17:43,040 --> 01:17:45,520
that their project uh automatically

1896
01:17:45,520 --> 01:17:47,679
continues to move forward. So staff

1897
01:17:47,679 --> 01:17:50,480
works to advise to consult uh with

1898
01:17:50,480 --> 01:17:52,480
property owners uh maybe something

1899
01:17:52,480 --> 01:17:54,560
associated with plan review or somebody

1900
01:17:54,560 --> 01:17:56,320
may want to file an appeal of a decision

1901
01:17:56,320 --> 01:17:57,600
that's made at the planning and zoning

1902
01:17:57,600 --> 01:18:00,080
commission. So again staff is continuing

1903
01:18:00,080 --> 01:18:03,679
to work with uh participants after the

1904
01:18:03,679 --> 01:18:05,440
public hearing.

1905
01:18:05,440 --> 01:18:07,280
It's really a two-way street.

1906
01:18:07,280 --> 01:18:10,080
Commissioners can expect from staff uh

1907
01:18:10,080 --> 01:18:13,520
advocacy for good planning. Uh the

1908
01:18:13,520 --> 01:18:15,520
American Planning Association has a set

1909
01:18:15,520 --> 01:18:19,920
of ethics uh and they require uh

1910
01:18:19,920 --> 01:18:22,800
planners to to act in accordance uh to

1911
01:18:22,800 --> 01:18:24,640
advocate rather for for good planning

1912
01:18:24,640 --> 01:18:27,600
and so you can expect that from staff.

1913
01:18:27,600 --> 01:18:29,520
Uh things like tonight training on

1914
01:18:29,520 --> 01:18:32,159
process, procedures, legal requirements,

1915
01:18:32,159 --> 01:18:34,480
terminology. Uh you can expect that out

1916
01:18:34,480 --> 01:18:37,520
of out of your staff. Uh report the

1917
01:18:37,520 --> 01:18:40,239
facts of the case related to the code.

1918
01:18:40,239 --> 01:18:42,400
Identify uh the connection or the

1919
01:18:42,400 --> 01:18:45,280
relationship between uh the comp plan

1920
01:18:45,280 --> 01:18:47,280
and the code and the subdivision

1921
01:18:47,280 --> 01:18:49,679
ordinance, things of that nature.

1922
01:18:49,679 --> 01:18:52,320
And then a commission should be able to

1923
01:18:52,320 --> 01:18:55,520
get and expect to get from their staff

1924
01:18:55,520 --> 01:18:59,280
jargon free, easy to use, easy to read

1925
01:18:59,280 --> 01:19:02,400
staff reports. Um, we want to make we as

1926
01:19:02,400 --> 01:19:05,920
staff so to speak want to make your job

1927
01:19:05,920 --> 01:19:09,120
uh as easy as possible. There still

1928
01:19:09,120 --> 01:19:10,480
requires a lot of brain power, requires

1929
01:19:10,480 --> 01:19:12,320
a lot of work that goes into it. But we

1930
01:19:12,320 --> 01:19:13,280
want to make sure that any

1931
01:19:13,280 --> 01:19:14,960
communications that we are preparing for

1932
01:19:14,960 --> 01:19:17,040
you, which are public communications, so

1933
01:19:17,040 --> 01:19:19,280
the public also gets to look at those

1934
01:19:19,280 --> 01:19:21,120
make sense and they're easy to use and

1935
01:19:21,120 --> 01:19:23,760
they're easy to read.

1936
01:19:23,760 --> 01:19:25,360
Uh what can staff expect from

1937
01:19:25,360 --> 01:19:28,320
commissioners? Uh before you get to the

1938
01:19:28,320 --> 01:19:30,880
hearing, please review your materials. I

1939
01:19:30,880 --> 01:19:33,440
have dealt with some commissioners that

1940
01:19:33,440 --> 01:19:35,920
expected that staff gets to the podium

1941
01:19:35,920 --> 01:19:37,920
and to tell me everything I need to know

1942
01:19:37,920 --> 01:19:40,239
when all of the pertinent details are

1943
01:19:40,239 --> 01:19:42,400
usually included within that staff

1944
01:19:42,400 --> 01:19:44,880
report. So be familiar with that. Uh if

1945
01:19:44,880 --> 01:19:46,080
you got a question you're going to ask

1946
01:19:46,080 --> 01:19:48,800
that please uh if you've got concerns

1947
01:19:48,800 --> 01:19:51,360
about something uh it's appropriate

1948
01:19:51,360 --> 01:19:53,440
we'll talk about the parameters uh to

1949
01:19:53,440 --> 01:19:56,719
give some forewarning or to ask what is

1950
01:19:56,719 --> 01:19:58,719
the acreage of the property? Is it 80

1951
01:19:58,719 --> 01:20:01,199
acres or is it

1952
01:20:01,199 --> 01:20:02,320
things of that nature would be

1953
01:20:02,320 --> 01:20:05,920
appropriate. Uh don't blindside staff uh

1954
01:20:05,920 --> 01:20:08,800
if you've got issues again uh that are

1955
01:20:08,800 --> 01:20:11,520
not pertinent to the cases that are

1956
01:20:11,520 --> 01:20:14,719
being heard. That's a conversation for

1957
01:20:14,719 --> 01:20:18,000
outside the public hearing

1958
01:20:18,000 --> 01:20:25,270
and um and then just showing respect for your staff.

1959
01:20:25,280 --> 01:20:27,120
So key points here, uh, discussing the

1960
01:20:27,120 --> 01:20:28,800
potential conflicts of interest promptly

1961
01:20:28,800 --> 01:20:31,520
and clearly. Recusing yourself from

1962
01:20:31,520 --> 01:20:33,679
voting on a matter you have a real or a

1963
01:20:33,679 --> 01:20:35,600
perceived conflict of interest is

1964
01:20:35,600 --> 01:20:37,840
appropriate. It's required. It's

1965
01:20:37,840 --> 01:20:40,719
expected. It is not a bad thing to have

1966
01:20:40,719 --> 01:20:42,480
to recuse yourself. I've seen some

1967
01:20:42,480 --> 01:20:45,120
commissioners that struggle because uh,

1968
01:20:45,120 --> 01:20:47,600
you know, again, they were related to an

1969
01:20:47,600 --> 01:20:50,640
applicant, say, um, but they didn't they

1970
01:20:50,640 --> 01:20:51,920
didn't want to say anything because they

1971
01:20:51,920 --> 01:20:54,080
didn't want it to make it they had done

1972
01:20:54,080 --> 01:20:56,159
something wrong. It's not a bad thing to

1973
01:20:56,159 --> 01:20:58,159
recuse yourself. It really helps

1974
01:20:58,159 --> 01:20:59,520
demonstrate what we've been talking

1975
01:20:59,520 --> 01:21:02,560
about openness, transparency, honesty,

1976
01:21:02,560 --> 01:21:06,159
ethical behavior. If you even if it's a

1977
01:21:06,159 --> 01:21:07,840
perceived or a possible perceived

1978
01:21:07,840 --> 01:21:10,159
conflict, uh identifying that, calling

1979
01:21:10,159 --> 01:21:12,560
it out, saying I want to make sure for

1980
01:21:12,560 --> 01:21:15,520
the record, uh that you know it it shows

1981
01:21:15,520 --> 01:21:17,760
that the applicant is my brother-in-law.

1982
01:21:17,760 --> 01:21:19,760
Uh I feel like I can make an unbiased

1983
01:21:19,760 --> 01:21:21,120
decision, but from a perception

1984
01:21:21,120 --> 01:21:22,800
standpoint, I understand how people

1985
01:21:22,800 --> 01:21:24,320
could be confused. So, I'm going to

1986
01:21:24,320 --> 01:21:25,920
recuse myself.

1987
01:21:25,920 --> 01:21:27,199
>> Okay. So, random question.

1988
01:21:27,199 --> 01:21:28,400
>> Yes, sir.

1989
01:21:28,400 --> 01:21:32,239
>> Suppose a commissioner lives within the

1990
01:21:32,239 --> 01:21:36,480
legally required uh radius of a property

1991
01:21:36,480 --> 01:21:38,000
that's being brought before the

1992
01:21:38,000 --> 01:21:40,320
commission for review.

1993
01:21:40,320 --> 01:21:42,640
>> Is that an automatic recusal for that

1994
01:21:42,640 --> 01:21:44,560
commissioner?

1995
01:21:44,560 --> 01:21:47,679
>> You guys, you got good questions.

1996
01:21:47,679 --> 01:21:51,920
Um I don't think so. And I'll tell you

1997
01:21:51,920 --> 01:21:54,560
kind of where I'm coming from is I would

1998
01:21:54,560 --> 01:21:57,760
certainly uh make sure the record, you

1999
01:21:57,760 --> 01:21:59,679
know, I I would say something or read

2000
01:21:59,679 --> 01:22:01,679
something into the record, but then it

2001
01:22:01,679 --> 01:22:03,840
becomes a personal decision. You're

2002
01:22:03,840 --> 01:22:06,320
going to rec, you know, you're letting

2003
01:22:06,320 --> 01:22:08,239
other members, participants, whether on

2004
01:22:08,239 --> 01:22:09,920
the commission or in the audience, know

2005
01:22:09,920 --> 01:22:12,400
that you live within 300 ft of the

2006
01:22:12,400 --> 01:22:14,400
subject site and then you make a

2007
01:22:14,400 --> 01:22:17,120
decision, a personal decision. and being

2008
01:22:17,120 --> 01:22:19,520
prox in close proximity to that site.

2009
01:22:19,520 --> 01:22:22,239
Does that somehow influence or bias your

2010
01:22:22,239 --> 01:22:25,360
ability to listen to the proposal as it

2011
01:22:25,360 --> 01:22:30,320
comes forward? Um, it might it also

2012
01:22:30,320 --> 01:22:32,080
might not. I mean, I've got people that

2013
01:22:32,080 --> 01:22:34,800
live near me that

2014
01:22:34,800 --> 01:22:36,400
probably need to go knock on their door

2015
01:22:36,400 --> 01:22:38,159
and meet them. I don't know them that,

2016
01:22:38,159 --> 01:22:38,960
you know, they've lived in the

2017
01:22:38,960 --> 01:22:40,320
neighborhood for a couple years and I

2018
01:22:40,320 --> 01:22:42,159
see them come in and out every once.

2019
01:22:42,159 --> 01:22:43,920
situation like that. I feel like if I

2020
01:22:43,920 --> 01:22:45,760
was a decision maker, I could make an

2021
01:22:45,760 --> 01:22:48,320
unbiased decision. Conversely, there's

2022
01:22:48,320 --> 01:22:49,440
people that live in the neighborhood

2023
01:22:49,440 --> 01:22:51,679
that I think are great, uh, and if that

2024
01:22:51,679 --> 01:22:53,520
were the situation, I, you know, an

2025
01:22:53,520 --> 01:22:54,960
applicant were to come forward that was

2026
01:22:54,960 --> 01:22:57,760
somebody I knew or I knew very well, uh,

2027
01:22:57,760 --> 01:22:59,600
I would probably choose to recuse

2028
01:22:59,600 --> 01:23:02,239
myself. But again, it's an individual

2029
01:23:02,239 --> 01:23:05,199
decision in a scenario like that.

2030
01:23:05,199 --> 01:23:07,840
>> That's good. Thank you. [clears throat]

2031
01:23:07,840 --> 01:23:11,760
Um, and then the last sub point there,

2032
01:23:11,760 --> 01:23:13,760
just remember, it's always better if

2033
01:23:13,760 --> 01:23:17,840
you're the one to mention a conflict or

2034
01:23:17,840 --> 01:23:20,080
a perceived conflict than to have

2035
01:23:20,080 --> 01:23:23,040
somebody call you out on it after you've

2036
01:23:23,040 --> 01:23:24,960
voted or after you've already started to

2037
01:23:24,960 --> 01:23:27,760
engage in in the public hearing process

2038
01:23:27,760 --> 01:23:29,679
of that. So, again, just being honest

2039
01:23:29,679 --> 01:23:31,520
and open.

2040
01:23:31,520 --> 01:23:33,280
Uh, very recently, the legislature

2041
01:23:33,280 --> 01:23:37,199
adopted House Bill 298 and specifies

2042
01:23:37,199 --> 01:23:40,239
that uh when a hearing body member has a

2043
01:23:40,239 --> 01:23:43,440
conflict of interest uh by state statute

2044
01:23:43,440 --> 01:23:45,600
they are required to do the following.

2045
01:23:45,600 --> 01:23:47,280
They have to state the conflict on the

2046
01:23:47,280 --> 01:23:50,080
record. So what what's the issue or the

2047
01:23:50,080 --> 01:23:53,040
perceived issue and then secondly they

2048
01:23:53,040 --> 01:23:54,880
have to leave the room until the matter

2049
01:23:54,880 --> 01:23:56,960
is decided and the hearing body has

2050
01:23:56,960 --> 01:23:59,520
moved on to the next matter. standing at

2051
01:23:59,520 --> 01:24:00,880
the back of the room. I've seen this

2052
01:24:00,880 --> 01:24:06,159
before. Uh and uh engaging in nonverbal

2053
01:24:06,159 --> 01:24:07,760
communication,

2054
01:24:07,760 --> 01:24:10,159
you know, is is not allowed. Or sitting

2055
01:24:10,159 --> 01:24:12,800
in the front row and and glaring at your

2056
01:24:12,800 --> 01:24:14,480
fellow commissioners, you guys better

2057
01:24:14,480 --> 01:24:16,560
approve this. You know, my mother-in-law

2058
01:24:16,560 --> 01:24:19,600
needs this. Um that that is not

2059
01:24:19,600 --> 01:24:21,360
appropriate. Wasn't appropriate to begin

2060
01:24:21,360 --> 01:24:24,400
with. Uh but this this bill goes on to

2061
01:24:24,400 --> 01:24:26,960
specify that should a decision maker

2062
01:24:26,960 --> 01:24:28,320
whether it's at this level or at the

2063
01:24:28,320 --> 01:24:30,159
governing body level if you've got a

2064
01:24:30,159 --> 01:24:31,679
conflict you got to declare it and you

2065
01:24:31,679 --> 01:24:34,239
got to leave.

2066
01:24:34,239 --> 01:24:36,800
What if you don't think you can make an

2067
01:24:36,800 --> 01:24:42,000
unbiased decision as an individual?

2068
01:24:42,000 --> 01:24:43,679
>> If you you don't think you can make an

2069
01:24:43,679 --> 01:24:45,840
unbiased decision then you need to

2070
01:24:45,840 --> 01:24:47,920
recuse yourself whatever sort of

2071
01:24:47,920 --> 01:24:50,880
inclination against or for the

2072
01:24:50,880 --> 01:24:52,880
>> proposal. Correct. I personally I could

2073
01:24:52,880 --> 01:24:55,040
not vote for anybody that was a fan of

2074
01:24:55,040 --> 01:24:56,639
the Dallas Cowboys. It was just

2075
01:24:56,639 --> 01:24:59,520
something unique. Uh but yes, if you if

2076
01:24:59,520 --> 01:25:02,080
you had an issue that you convinced

2077
01:25:02,080 --> 01:25:04,480
yourself or maybe a fellow commissioner

2078
01:25:04,480 --> 01:25:08,080
reminded you uh that that you had bias

2079
01:25:08,080 --> 01:25:10,480
or you had a pre-existing opinion.

2080
01:25:10,480 --> 01:25:14,880
>> Um yes, by all means, you know, again,

2081
01:25:14,880 --> 01:25:16,880
this is for the long haul, right? We we

2082
01:25:16,880 --> 01:25:18,960
want decisions that are made that are

2083
01:25:18,960 --> 01:25:21,920
legally sound, compliant with the with

2084
01:25:21,920 --> 01:25:24,320
the criteria. Uh we don't want a

2085
01:25:24,320 --> 01:25:26,960
situation where a decision is made uh in

2086
01:25:26,960 --> 01:25:29,120
haste or a decision is made improperly

2087
01:25:29,120 --> 01:25:31,520
or incorrectly only to have a court

2088
01:25:31,520 --> 01:25:33,840
overturn that uh because that doesn't do

2089
01:25:33,840 --> 01:25:38,950
anybody.

2090
01:25:38,960 --> 01:25:40,239
» Yes, sir.

2091
01:25:40,239 --> 01:25:42,960
on the on the

2092
01:25:42,960 --> 01:25:45,520
believe the room law. Yes, you said that

2093
01:25:45,520 --> 01:25:47,120
was recent.

2094
01:25:47,120 --> 01:25:49,760
>> Uh yes, I think it was it went into it

2095
01:25:49,760 --> 01:25:52,639
was adopted.

2096
01:25:52,639 --> 01:25:56,480
I believe it was adopted last

2097
01:25:56,480 --> 01:25:58,560
not the most recent legislative session

2098
01:25:58,560 --> 01:26:03,750
but before that but it went into effect

2099
01:26:03,760 --> 01:26:06,000
recently. I don't think it was July one.

2100
01:26:06,000 --> 01:26:07,360
I think it was at the end of the

2101
01:26:07,360 --> 01:26:09,280
calendar year last year. So, I'm sort of

2102
01:26:09,280 --> 01:26:10,960
thinking

2103
01:26:10,960 --> 01:26:13,920
it just as a reminder, we might put that

2104
01:26:13,920 --> 01:26:16,400
in our rules of procedure.

2105
01:26:16,400 --> 01:26:19,040
>> I I would agree with that and advise

2106
01:26:19,040 --> 01:26:22,960
that and be fully in support of that.

2107
01:26:22,960 --> 01:26:25,440
>> It just again, if you've got it in

2108
01:26:25,440 --> 01:26:28,239
writing, it just helps us helps helps

2109
01:26:28,239 --> 01:26:30,480
you remember and then if there's ever a

2110
01:26:30,480 --> 01:26:32,960
question, theoretically, it's black and

2111
01:26:32,960 --> 01:26:34,400
white.

2112
01:26:34,400 --> 01:26:37,679
>> Yes, sir. So basically um something that

2113
01:26:37,679 --> 01:26:40,320
keeps on just coming to my mind is we're

2114
01:26:40,320 --> 01:26:43,280
a small community. So at what level I

2115
01:26:43,280 --> 01:26:45,040
mean I run into the same people

2116
01:26:45,040 --> 01:26:48,000
constantly. Is it just okay if someone's

2117
01:26:48,000 --> 01:26:49,520
if you know if you're just like I don't

2118
01:26:49,520 --> 01:26:50,880
want to hear anything. I'm leaving. I'm

2119
01:26:50,880 --> 01:26:52,400
not going to talk to you if you're going

2120
01:26:52,400 --> 01:26:54,800
to discuss a a project or I don't tell

2121
01:26:54,800 --> 01:26:56,880
me if you're going to come before P&Z or

2122
01:26:56,880 --> 01:26:58,560
at what point because the more active

2123
01:26:58,560 --> 01:27:00,480
you are in the community the more people

2124
01:27:00,480 --> 01:27:02,159
you're going to cross paths with. So I

2125
01:27:02,159 --> 01:27:03,840
just see that being really difficult in

2126
01:27:03,840 --> 01:27:07,199
a place like Corales.

2127
01:27:07,199 --> 01:27:10,480
>> Yes, I would agree with you. It's not it

2128
01:27:10,480 --> 01:27:11,760
doesn't happen

2129
01:27:11,760 --> 01:27:13,760
>> in larger communities.

2130
01:27:13,760 --> 01:27:16,639
>> But yes, I mean it's very common

2131
01:27:16,639 --> 01:27:18,800
>> for me to hear and I understand that

2132
01:27:18,800 --> 01:27:21,120
>> you know if you grew up here or you live

2133
01:27:21,120 --> 01:27:23,199
here and you laid down roots and you've

2134
01:27:23,199 --> 01:27:25,520
got a large social circle and and things

2135
01:27:25,520 --> 01:27:27,840
of that nature which are all benefits to

2136
01:27:27,840 --> 01:27:30,560
the community. Uh but you have to there

2137
01:27:30,560 --> 01:27:34,000
gets to the point uh where individually

2138
01:27:34,000 --> 01:27:35,679
uh you need to be able to say guys I

2139
01:27:35,679 --> 01:27:37,360
can't talk about this right now. Can we

2140
01:27:37,360 --> 01:27:39,920
change the conversation to

2141
01:27:39,920 --> 01:27:42,400
>> the Real Housewives of Miami or whatever

2142
01:27:42,400 --> 01:27:44,400
would be more appropriate than talking

2143
01:27:44,400 --> 01:27:48,639
about my plans to subdivide my 10 acres

2144
01:27:48,639 --> 01:27:50,719
and I'm going to you know create lots

2145
01:27:50,719 --> 01:27:52,159
and I'm going to start building houses

2146
01:27:52,159 --> 01:27:54,400
and do you think you know we're just

2147
01:27:54,400 --> 01:27:55,840
here at the cocktail party but can you

2148
01:27:55,840 --> 01:27:58,239
just give me some off-the cuff advice?

2149
01:27:58,239 --> 01:27:59,920
You're You're bleeding in over. You're

2150
01:27:59,920 --> 01:28:02,000
bleeding over into dangerous territory.

2151
01:28:02,000 --> 01:28:03,600
>> Yeah. No, and I get that. But I guess

2152
01:28:03,600 --> 01:28:05,120
what my concern would be is we talked

2153
01:28:05,120 --> 01:28:06,880
about the perception. So then you I

2154
01:28:06,880 --> 01:28:08,080
wouldn't want someone else being like,

2155
01:28:08,080 --> 01:28:09,760
"Oh my gosh, like you I know you know

2156
01:28:09,760 --> 01:28:11,760
that person." So I think we need to be

2157
01:28:11,760 --> 01:28:13,920
trusted to show our good judgment and we

2158
01:28:13,920 --> 01:28:15,840
need to Okay.

2159
01:28:15,840 --> 01:28:18,000
>> Absolutely. Absolutely. And again, I

2160
01:28:18,000 --> 01:28:18,960
think

2161
01:28:18,960 --> 01:28:20,400
>> we've kind of touched on it a little

2162
01:28:20,400 --> 01:28:23,840
bit, but we may be good friends. uh

2163
01:28:23,840 --> 01:28:26,159
there come and if I come before you come

2164
01:28:26,159 --> 01:28:29,600
before this body um I probably as your

2165
01:28:29,600 --> 01:28:33,040
friend would want to tell or make a good

2166
01:28:33,040 --> 01:28:34,880
argument for why my project should be

2167
01:28:34,880 --> 01:28:37,520
approved uh because I want to be treated

2168
01:28:37,520 --> 01:28:40,639
fairly. But if you feel at a personal

2169
01:28:40,639 --> 01:28:43,440
level that it either could be a conf

2170
01:28:43,440 --> 01:28:44,880
would be a conflict or could be

2171
01:28:44,880 --> 01:28:46,960
perceived as a conflict then you have an

2172
01:28:46,960 --> 01:28:51,040
obligation to to call it out and if you

2173
01:28:51,040 --> 01:28:52,960
feel the need to recuse yourself

2174
01:28:52,960 --> 01:28:55,120
statewide and reform. But there could

2175
01:28:55,120 --> 01:28:57,120
be, you know, there could be a situation

2176
01:28:57,120 --> 01:28:59,360
where we know each other, but our

2177
01:28:59,360 --> 01:29:01,840
relationship or our the circles that we

2178
01:29:01,840 --> 01:29:03,520
ran in or the little league team that we

2179
01:29:03,520 --> 01:29:06,400
coached together doesn't affect your

2180
01:29:06,400 --> 01:29:08,880
ability to to make a judgment about a

2181
01:29:08,880 --> 01:29:11,199
land use.

2182
01:29:11,199 --> 01:29:13,679
But again, it all comes down to what

2183
01:29:13,679 --> 01:29:19,189
you're comfortable with, too.

2184
01:29:19,199 --> 01:29:21,040
Uh as decision makers, you need to base

2185
01:29:21,040 --> 01:29:22,480
your decision on the facts and the

2186
01:29:22,480 --> 01:29:24,080
evidence presented, not on personal

2187
01:29:24,080 --> 01:29:26,639
preference, on bias or individuals that

2188
01:29:26,639 --> 01:29:29,520
are involved. Uh none of those things

2189
01:29:29,520 --> 01:29:32,000
matter. Name, age, race, religion, how

2190
01:29:32,000 --> 01:29:34,239
long I've lived in the community, uh

2191
01:29:34,239 --> 01:29:36,880
things of that nature. All discussions,

2192
01:29:36,880 --> 01:29:38,719
deliberations, and resulting decisions

2193
01:29:38,719 --> 01:29:41,360
have to be properly documented and must

2194
01:29:41,360 --> 01:29:44,000
be accessible to the public. And if you

2195
01:29:44,000 --> 01:29:46,719
have questions when in doubt, It's

2196
01:29:46,719 --> 01:29:48,480
almost always appropriate to reach out

2197
01:29:48,480 --> 01:29:51,679
to staff to your to your attorney to get

2198
01:29:51,679 --> 01:29:53,840
clarification,

2199
01:29:53,840 --> 01:29:55,440
particularly when it's related to

2200
01:29:55,440 --> 01:29:58,400
process and not the details of a

2201
01:29:58,400 --> 01:30:02,149
particular request.

2202
01:30:02,159 --> 01:30:05,760
Pause one more time for questions.

2203
01:30:05,760 --> 01:30:07,600
All right.

2204
01:30:07,600 --> 01:30:09,040
So, matters that come before the hearing

2205
01:30:09,040 --> 01:30:11,840
body fall into one of two categories. Uh

2206
01:30:11,840 --> 01:30:13,760
they're either legislative in nature or

2207
01:30:13,760 --> 01:30:15,760
they're quasi judicial. We're going to

2208
01:30:15,760 --> 01:30:18,639
focus on quasi judicial matter. The

2209
01:30:18,639 --> 01:30:20,080
distinction or the difference between

2210
01:30:20,080 --> 01:30:23,360
the two depends upon the subject matter

2211
01:30:23,360 --> 01:30:26,000
of the proceedings. Quasi judicial

2212
01:30:26,000 --> 01:30:29,679
matters while they do uh pertain to or

2213
01:30:29,679 --> 01:30:33,520
affect or go before a governing body uh

2214
01:30:33,520 --> 01:30:35,679
the meat and potatoes of what you do as

2215
01:30:35,679 --> 01:30:37,760
planning and zoning commissioners is

2216
01:30:37,760 --> 01:30:40,400
quasi judicial in nature. And this is

2217
01:30:40,400 --> 01:30:42,000
when the commission is charged with

2218
01:30:42,000 --> 01:30:44,800
rendering a decision on the rights of a

2219
01:30:44,800 --> 01:30:47,120
specific individual or a small group of

2220
01:30:47,120 --> 01:30:49,760
affected people or a specific piece of

2221
01:30:49,760 --> 01:30:51,679
property based on the criteria that's

2222
01:30:51,679 --> 01:30:54,239
outlined in the code. And you have to

2223
01:30:54,239 --> 01:30:57,360
base that decision on the evidence

2224
01:30:57,360 --> 01:31:00,400
that's within the record. Again, you're

2225
01:31:00,400 --> 01:31:03,600
acting as a judge. Uh I'm dating myself

2226
01:31:03,600 --> 01:31:05,520
here, but when I was a kid, I wanted to

2227
01:31:05,520 --> 01:31:07,760
grow up and be Judge Wner. I've loved

2228
01:31:07,760 --> 01:31:09,679
the People's Court. come home every day

2229
01:31:09,679 --> 01:31:12,000
after school and turn on the people's

2230
01:31:12,000 --> 01:31:13,679
court. And if you'll think about the

2231
01:31:13,679 --> 01:31:15,840
people's court or other judicial shows

2232
01:31:15,840 --> 01:31:18,639
like that, you have a judge that's

2233
01:31:18,639 --> 01:31:21,360
sitting behind the dis or the desk and

2234
01:31:21,360 --> 01:31:23,920
you've got typically two parties and the

2235
01:31:23,920 --> 01:31:25,600
judge starts with the first party and

2236
01:31:25,600 --> 01:31:27,520
the judge says tell me your side of the

2237
01:31:27,520 --> 01:31:31,199
story and gives uh that individual an

2238
01:31:31,199 --> 01:31:33,600
opportunity to to tell what happened and

2239
01:31:33,600 --> 01:31:36,400
that may include uh diagrams and that

2240
01:31:36,400 --> 01:31:42,480
may include pictures or um recordings of some sort. And then after the judge

2241
01:31:42,480 --> 01:31:44,400
listens to the first party, they turn to

2242
01:31:44,400 --> 01:31:45,760
the second party and they say, "Okay,

2243
01:31:45,760 --> 01:31:47,280
you tell me your side of the story and

2244
01:31:47,280 --> 01:31:49,520
they do the same thing, right?" Then the

2245
01:31:49,520 --> 01:31:51,600
judge collects all the evidence and

2246
01:31:51,600 --> 01:31:54,480
what's the next thing they do?

2247
01:31:54,480 --> 01:31:55,679
They take a commercial break because

2248
01:31:55,679 --> 01:31:59,920
they recess to the chambers and they

2249
01:31:59,920 --> 01:32:01,600
look over all of the evidence that's

2250
01:32:01,600 --> 01:32:03,600
presented and they think about the the

2251
01:32:03,600 --> 01:32:05,600
testimony and the credibility or the

2252
01:32:05,600 --> 01:32:08,400
lack thereof of people that participated

2253
01:32:08,400 --> 01:32:10,400
in that process and then they re render

2254
01:32:10,400 --> 01:32:13,199
a decision based on the law. That's

2255
01:32:13,199 --> 01:32:15,440
exactly what you guys are doing in your

2256
01:32:15,440 --> 01:32:17,120
capacity as planning and zoning

2257
01:32:17,120 --> 01:32:20,000
commissioners. In order to do that, you

2258
01:32:20,000 --> 01:32:21,840
have to afford participants these three

2259
01:32:21,840 --> 01:32:24,639
things. Due process, the opportunity to

2260
01:32:24,639 --> 01:32:27,760
be heard and a written decision based on

2261
01:32:27,760 --> 01:32:29,600
the evidence in the record that provides

2262
01:32:29,600 --> 01:32:31,679
findings which demonstrate how the

2263
01:32:31,679 --> 01:32:34,400
applicant met or did not meet the

2264
01:32:34,400 --> 01:32:36,159
applicable criteria. Let's talk about

2265
01:32:36,159 --> 01:32:38,719
those. Due process comes in two forms,

2266
01:32:38,719 --> 01:32:41,360
procedural and substantive. Procedural

2267
01:32:41,360 --> 01:32:43,360
due process is guaranteed by the 14th

2268
01:32:43,360 --> 01:32:44,960
and the fifth amendments of the United

2269
01:32:44,960 --> 01:32:47,280
States Constitution. You've also got

2270
01:32:47,280 --> 01:32:50,400
mirroring standards in uh in state

2271
01:32:50,400 --> 01:32:52,960
requirements. But in a nutshell, it

2272
01:32:52,960 --> 01:32:55,840
ensures that uh the fairness of

2273
01:32:55,840 --> 01:32:57,840
government actions that might deprive

2274
01:32:57,840 --> 01:33:00,080
someone of their property, excuse me,

2275
01:33:00,080 --> 01:33:01,360
their life, their liberty or their

2276
01:33:01,360 --> 01:33:04,080
property are undertaken. people are

2277
01:33:04,080 --> 01:33:05,600
protected from from that type of

2278
01:33:05,600 --> 01:33:07,679
government action. What it requires is

2279
01:33:07,679 --> 01:33:11,120
notice an opportunity to be heard and a

2280
01:33:11,120 --> 01:33:13,040
neutral decision making body. That's why

2281
01:33:13,040 --> 01:33:15,280
we if you need to recuse yourself

2282
01:33:15,280 --> 01:33:17,840
because you might be biased in some way.

2283
01:33:17,840 --> 01:33:19,520
You want to make sure that that the

2284
01:33:19,520 --> 01:33:22,560
decision-m body is neutral.

2285
01:33:22,560 --> 01:33:24,560
Secondly, subjective due process talks

2286
01:33:24,560 --> 01:33:27,360
about uh those same protections from

2287
01:33:27,360 --> 01:33:31,760
state and federal uh authority.

2288
01:33:31,760 --> 01:33:33,760
Give me just a second. So,

2289
01:33:33,760 --> 01:33:38,950
>> you're okay.

2290
01:33:38,960 --> 01:33:40,960
» You're good. Um, again, protects

2291
01:33:40,960 --> 01:33:43,120
people's fundamental rights. Uh,

2292
01:33:43,120 --> 01:33:44,400
ensuring that there's a compelling

2293
01:33:44,400 --> 01:33:45,840
government interest associated with the

2294
01:33:45,840 --> 01:33:48,080
determination that's being made. Uh, and

2295
01:33:48,080 --> 01:33:50,320
really the focus in substantive due

2296
01:33:50,320 --> 01:33:53,040
process is on the result of the hearing.

2297
01:33:53,040 --> 01:33:55,679
These questions are typical from uh, a

2298
01:33:55,679 --> 01:33:58,080
court. Uh, was the decision that was

2299
01:33:58,080 --> 01:34:00,880
reached arbitrary or capriccious? Fancy

2300
01:34:00,880 --> 01:34:03,600
words to say. Was it a reasonable

2301
01:34:03,600 --> 01:34:06,000
decision? Does it make sense based upon

2302
01:34:06,000 --> 01:34:08,880
the evidence and the criteria?

2303
01:34:08,880 --> 01:34:11,840
Um secondly, was it based on substantial

2304
01:34:11,840 --> 01:34:15,040
evidence in the record? Um a decision, a

2305
01:34:15,040 --> 01:34:18,080
determination to deny something because

2306
01:34:18,080 --> 01:34:20,159
uh traffic is an issue without any sort

2307
01:34:20,159 --> 01:34:22,080
of scientific traffic study of that

2308
01:34:22,080 --> 01:34:24,480
nature. Um that is not evidence,

2309
01:34:24,480 --> 01:34:25,840
substantial evidence that's in the

2310
01:34:25,840 --> 01:34:27,679
record. So that could create a problem.

2311
01:34:27,679 --> 01:34:30,400
Don't just wing it. Right.

2312
01:34:30,400 --> 01:34:32,000
Finally, was the result otherwise in

2313
01:34:32,000 --> 01:34:33,520
accordance with the law? Those are those

2314
01:34:33,520 --> 01:34:35,520
are considerations that a court makes to

2315
01:34:35,520 --> 01:34:38,560
ensure or to test if due process has

2316
01:34:38,560 --> 01:34:40,800
been provided.

2317
01:34:40,800 --> 01:34:43,120
Next, opportunity to be heard. All

2318
01:34:43,120 --> 01:34:45,040
witnesses that come before you, anybody

2319
01:34:45,040 --> 01:34:46,639
that's going to testify, including

2320
01:34:46,639 --> 01:34:49,840
staff, uh has to be sworn in, is

2321
01:34:49,840 --> 01:34:52,800
required to be sworn in. Uh you don't go

2322
01:34:52,800 --> 01:34:56,000
to zoning jail uh if you don't tell the

2323
01:34:56,000 --> 01:34:58,480
truth when you stand at the podium here.

2324
01:34:58,480 --> 01:35:02,880
There's no such thing as perjury from a zoning standpoint. However, it is

2325
01:35:02,880 --> 01:35:04,639
a reminder to participants that this is

2326
01:35:04,639 --> 01:35:06,880
a formal proceeding. They are to be on

2327
01:35:06,880 --> 01:35:08,560
their best behavior. They're to put

2328
01:35:08,560 --> 01:35:10,400
their, you know, good foot forward, that

2329
01:35:10,400 --> 01:35:13,520
sort of thing. They're to participate uh

2330
01:35:13,520 --> 01:35:16,000
professionally and ethically.

2331
01:35:16,000 --> 01:35:18,560
Uh if necessary, time periods can be

2332
01:35:18,560 --> 01:35:20,239
established uh for testimony or

2333
01:35:20,239 --> 01:35:22,080
presentations. That's very common. You

2334
01:35:22,080 --> 01:35:23,600
may do that already. It may be in the

2335
01:35:23,600 --> 01:35:25,440
rules of procedure, but an applicant

2336
01:35:25,440 --> 01:35:27,760
will have 10 minutes to explain their

2337
01:35:27,760 --> 01:35:30,159
proposal. Uh, individuals in support of

2338
01:35:30,159 --> 01:35:32,239
that will have two minutes to talk about

2339
01:35:32,239 --> 01:35:34,880
that. Then we'll jump over to anyone uh

2340
01:35:34,880 --> 01:35:36,639
that's in opposition. We'll give them a

2341
01:35:36,639 --> 01:35:39,440
certain time period. Uh it's okay to to

2342
01:35:39,440 --> 01:35:41,600
limit time period. Sometimes you'll hear

2343
01:35:41,600 --> 01:35:43,679
two minutes isn't enough. Uh don't

2344
01:35:43,679 --> 01:35:45,280
forget there are other methods of

2345
01:35:45,280 --> 01:35:46,719
communicating with the commission. You

2346
01:35:46,719 --> 01:35:48,639
can send your emails, provide written

2347
01:35:48,639 --> 01:35:50,239
comments to staff, things of that

2348
01:35:50,239 --> 01:35:53,189
nature.

2349
01:35:53,199 --> 01:35:55,520
uh opportunity to be heard also includes

2350
01:35:55,520 --> 01:35:57,920
uh providing for an opportunity for

2351
01:35:57,920 --> 01:36:00,639
cross-examination of witnesses. It

2352
01:36:00,639 --> 01:36:03,120
really just gives each party the ability

2353
01:36:03,120 --> 01:36:07,120
to to question uh motivation or bias or

2354
01:36:07,120 --> 01:36:09,760
things of that nature uh should that be

2355
01:36:09,760 --> 01:36:12,880
offered. Uh this is not a you know Jack

2356
01:36:12,880 --> 01:36:15,280
Nicholson you can't handle the truth

2357
01:36:15,280 --> 01:36:18,320
kind of situation. I've seen uh various

2358
01:36:18,320 --> 01:36:21,040
commissions that will either uh offer a

2359
01:36:21,040 --> 01:36:23,920
cross- examination uh time period uh

2360
01:36:23,920 --> 01:36:26,400
once testimony has been provided once we

2361
01:36:26,400 --> 01:36:28,639
get to that point in the hearing and the

2362
01:36:28,639 --> 01:36:31,040
commission and the chair will say uh all

2363
01:36:31,040 --> 01:36:33,120
commissions, excuse me, all questions

2364
01:36:33,120 --> 01:36:34,800
need to be submitted in writing and then

2365
01:36:34,800 --> 01:36:36,960
the chair will read the commission. It

2366
01:36:36,960 --> 01:36:40,080
kind of helps to take should it be a a

2367
01:36:40,080 --> 01:36:41,840
controversial matter kind of takes some

2368
01:36:41,840 --> 01:36:44,639
of the sting out of you know what do you

2369
01:36:44,639 --> 01:36:47,360
mean you did do a traffic study or how

2370
01:36:47,360 --> 01:36:49,199
much did you pay your your traffic

2371
01:36:49,199 --> 01:36:52,159
engineer? It just helps to keep things a

2372
01:36:52,159 --> 01:36:54,719
little bit calmer and more professional.

2373
01:36:54,719 --> 01:36:56,800
But the witness uh but witnesses during

2374
01:36:56,800 --> 01:36:58,320
cross- examination should never be

2375
01:36:58,320 --> 01:37:00,639
subject to to badgering or anything of

2376
01:37:00,639 --> 01:37:05,669
that nature. They should be treated with respect.

2377
01:37:05,679 --> 01:37:07,679
Finally, the written decision. So all

2378
01:37:07,679 --> 01:37:09,520
evidence that's presented has to be

2379
01:37:09,520 --> 01:37:12,159
reflected within the decision. And it's

2380
01:37:12,159 --> 01:37:14,719
aokay to give different weight and

2381
01:37:14,719 --> 01:37:16,639
different influence to different

2382
01:37:16,639 --> 01:37:19,199
evidence. Uh things like scientific

2383
01:37:19,199 --> 01:37:21,199
reports, professional studies, or

2384
01:37:21,199 --> 01:37:24,400
testimony by a subject matter expert

2385
01:37:24,400 --> 01:37:26,239
typically warrant significance because

2386
01:37:26,239 --> 01:37:28,159
they're grounded in technical expertise

2387
01:37:28,159 --> 01:37:30,320
and objective analysis.

2388
01:37:30,320 --> 01:37:33,119
Courts usually rely on the record and

2389
01:37:33,119 --> 01:37:36,080
not the emotion that may be in the room

2390
01:37:36,080 --> 01:37:38,400
or not anything that's not already

2391
01:37:38,400 --> 01:37:40,159
codified or written down in the

2392
01:37:40,159 --> 01:37:41,440
standards.

2393
01:37:41,440 --> 01:37:43,199
when they determine a matter that comes

2394
01:37:43,199 --> 01:37:45,679
before them, they're simply looking at

2395
01:37:45,679 --> 01:37:48,239
uh what was said and how the connection

2396
01:37:48,239 --> 01:37:49,920
is made from the evidence that was

2397
01:37:49,920 --> 01:37:51,600
presented to the determination that was

2398
01:37:51,600 --> 01:37:54,159
ultimately rendered.

2399
01:37:54,159 --> 01:37:56,960
I think it's important to remind uh the

2400
01:37:56,960 --> 01:37:58,719
commission that a decision isn't

2401
01:37:58,719 --> 01:38:01,520
official until it's in writing. Uh I am

2402
01:38:01,520 --> 01:38:05,840
aware that uh some commissions make a hearing on uh excuse me make a

2403
01:38:05,840 --> 01:38:07,360
decision on Tuesday night during the

2404
01:38:07,360 --> 01:38:09,280
hearing and then staff turns around

2405
01:38:09,280 --> 01:38:11,760
Wednesday morning and writes it all up

2406
01:38:11,760 --> 01:38:14,400
and and sends it out. There also

2407
01:38:14,400 --> 01:38:16,960
jurisdictions that make a decision at

2408
01:38:16,960 --> 01:38:18,480
one meeting and then two weeks later

2409
01:38:18,480 --> 01:38:20,719
they have another meeting where uh

2410
01:38:20,719 --> 01:38:22,159
findings and conditions have been

2411
01:38:22,159 --> 01:38:23,840
prepared based on the discussion and

2412
01:38:23,840 --> 01:38:25,679
decision that was rendered two weeks

2413
01:38:25,679 --> 01:38:27,920
prior. It doesn't really matter, but

2414
01:38:27,920 --> 01:38:30,800
it's not official until it's in writing.

2415
01:38:30,800 --> 01:38:33,199
So, if I'm standing before you and you

2416
01:38:33,199 --> 01:38:36,560
approve my my subdivision request and

2417
01:38:36,560 --> 01:38:38,080
you have the authority to approve it at

2418
01:38:38,080 --> 01:38:39,760
this level, I can't go out tomorrow

2419
01:38:39,760 --> 01:38:41,840
morning and start digging trenches and

2420
01:38:41,840 --> 01:38:43,280
that sort of thing. It's got to be in

2421
01:38:43,280 --> 01:38:46,000
writing and if there's an appeal period

2422
01:38:46,000 --> 01:38:47,760
to that, the appeal period needs to

2423
01:38:47,760 --> 01:38:50,480
expire before any rights have been

2424
01:38:50,480 --> 01:38:52,960
conveyed to me as a property owner based

2425
01:38:52,960 --> 01:38:56,639
upon the decision from this commission.

2426
01:38:56,639 --> 01:38:58,560
The decision must outline findings of

2427
01:38:58,560 --> 01:39:00,159
fact to support the determination. This

2428
01:39:00,159 --> 01:39:02,080
is really nothing more than a sufficient

2429
01:39:02,080 --> 01:39:03,840
explanation that connects the evidence

2430
01:39:03,840 --> 01:39:07,280
that's presented to the criteria. And it

2431
01:39:07,280 --> 01:39:08,880
really comes in three components. The

2432
01:39:08,880 --> 01:39:10,480
applicable standards as they are

2433
01:39:10,480 --> 01:39:12,880
enumerated in the code, the evidence

2434
01:39:12,880 --> 01:39:14,800
presented or not presented that's in the

2435
01:39:14,800 --> 01:39:17,199
record, and a conclusion explaining

2436
01:39:17,199 --> 01:39:19,199
whether the criterion was met or not.

2437
01:39:19,199 --> 01:39:21,199
Another very quick practical example

2438
01:39:21,199 --> 01:39:24,800
here. I'm making this up, but section

2439
01:39:24,800 --> 01:39:26,719
5.5.3

2440
01:39:26,719 --> 01:39:28,400
L of the zoning ordinance requires that

2441
01:39:28,400 --> 01:39:30,159
the proposed garage for automobile

2442
01:39:30,159 --> 01:39:31,920
repair be compatible with surrounding

2443
01:39:31,920 --> 01:39:33,440
development.

2444
01:39:33,440 --> 01:39:36,320
Factual statement, right?

2445
01:39:36,320 --> 01:39:37,840
Evidence presented during the hearing

2446
01:39:37,840 --> 01:39:39,360
established that the surrounding area

2447
01:39:39,360 --> 01:39:40,960
contains commercial and mixeduse

2448
01:39:40,960 --> 01:39:42,880
properties on three sides of the subject

2449
01:39:42,880 --> 01:39:44,400
site, including a gas station in the

2450
01:39:44,400 --> 01:39:46,960
east, gymnastics and trucking facility

2451
01:39:46,960 --> 01:39:48,480
in the west, and a retail establishment

2452
01:39:48,480 --> 01:39:51,360
to the south. The 3acre size of the

2453
01:39:51,360 --> 01:39:53,199
property is sufficient in size and shape

2454
01:39:53,199 --> 01:39:54,719
to meet all applicable development

2455
01:39:54,719 --> 01:39:56,400
requirements for yards, open space,

2456
01:39:56,400 --> 01:39:58,719
parking, loading, and landscaping. And

2457
01:39:58,719 --> 01:40:00,400
the applicant has testified that all

2458
01:40:00,400 --> 01:40:03,520
noise generating activities will occur

2459
01:40:03,520 --> 01:40:06,159
inside the building will occur indoors.

2460
01:40:06,159 --> 01:40:08,000
Here comes the concluding statement.

2461
01:40:08,000 --> 01:40:10,000
Based on this evidence, the planning and

2462
01:40:10,000 --> 01:40:11,280
zoning commission finds that the

2463
01:40:11,280 --> 01:40:12,880
proposed use is compatible with the

2464
01:40:12,880 --> 01:40:14,960
surrounding area and the applicable

2465
01:40:14,960 --> 01:40:16,639
development standards. there's a

2466
01:40:16,639 --> 01:40:19,440
connection between the evidence and the

2467
01:40:19,440 --> 01:40:24,390
resulting ultimate decision.

2468
01:40:24,400 --> 01:40:27,679
Um I also recommend highly recommend

2469
01:40:27,679 --> 01:40:29,199
that the decision if there is

2470
01:40:29,199 --> 01:40:33,440
conflicting evidence uh that it be also

2471
01:40:33,440 --> 01:40:36,960
referenced. Um, I think ignoring

2472
01:40:36,960 --> 01:40:38,719
unfavorable

2473
01:40:38,719 --> 01:40:42,080
uh evidence or or evidence that is

2474
01:40:42,080 --> 01:40:46,960
contrary to the decision that's made weakens your decision. So,

2475
01:40:46,960 --> 01:40:49,280
it could include something like this.

2476
01:40:49,280 --> 01:40:50,719
Although several residents expressed

2477
01:40:50,719 --> 01:40:52,560
concerns regarding increased traffic

2478
01:40:52,560 --> 01:40:55,119
congestion, the traffic impact analysis

2479
01:40:55,119 --> 01:40:57,119
prepared by a licensed traffic engineer

2480
01:40:57,119 --> 01:41:00,080
concluded that the increase in traffic

2481
01:41:00,080 --> 01:41:02,400
um created by the project would remain

2482
01:41:02,400 --> 01:41:04,000
within acceptable level of service

2483
01:41:04,000 --> 01:41:06,239
standards established by the village.

2484
01:41:06,239 --> 01:41:07,840
The planning zoning commission assigned

2485
01:41:07,840 --> 01:41:09,280
substantial weight to the professional

2486
01:41:09,280 --> 01:41:11,440
traffic analysis submitted with this

2487
01:41:11,440 --> 01:41:12,880
request because it was based on

2488
01:41:12,880 --> 01:41:15,199
measurable data and accepted engineering

2489
01:41:15,199 --> 01:41:17,119
methodologies. you haven't ignored the

2490
01:41:17,119 --> 01:41:20,480
people that said, "I feel like I may not

2491
01:41:20,480 --> 01:41:22,400
have evidence, but I know in my gut that

2492
01:41:22,400 --> 01:41:27,600
traffic is going to be a problem." And weighing that against

2493
01:41:27,600 --> 01:41:31,040
a study, an official study, analysis

2494
01:41:31,040 --> 01:41:35,830
using adopted methodologies.

2495
01:41:35,840 --> 01:41:37,440
So, we've touched on this very briefly.

2496
01:41:37,440 --> 01:41:38,639
Let's just run through it quickly. But

2497
01:41:38,639 --> 01:41:41,679
exparte is any communication that occurs

2498
01:41:41,679 --> 01:41:45,280
outside of a public. It involves fewer

2499
01:41:45,280 --> 01:41:46,880
all the parties having a legal interest

2500
01:41:46,880 --> 01:41:49,119
in the matter. It's about a pending or

2501
01:41:49,119 --> 01:41:50,560
an upcoming matter in front of the

2502
01:41:50,560 --> 01:41:53,119
commission and it's made to or initiated

2503
01:41:53,119 --> 01:41:55,199
by a commission member having

2504
01:41:55,199 --> 01:41:57,040
jurisdiction over the matter. Again,

2505
01:41:57,040 --> 01:41:58,960
you're acting as judges, so you want to

2506
01:41:58,960 --> 01:42:01,440
avoid any discussions outside the public

2507
01:42:01,440 --> 01:42:03,440
hearing.

2508
01:42:03,440 --> 01:42:05,440
Examples include uh having

2509
01:42:05,440 --> 01:42:06,880
communications with people involved or

2510
01:42:06,880 --> 01:42:09,679
not involved in the subject matter uh

2511
01:42:09,679 --> 01:42:11,119
pending before the hearing body,

2512
01:42:11,119 --> 01:42:12,719
independent investigations. We talked

2513
01:42:12,719 --> 01:42:14,159
about site visits just a few minutes

2514
01:42:14,159 --> 01:42:16,400
ago. even communications that are made

2515
01:42:16,400 --> 01:42:18,320
with the best of intentions. I'm just

2516
01:42:18,320 --> 01:42:22,639
trying to help. My advice is don't be

2517
01:42:22,639 --> 01:42:25,360
unhelpful. Uh but make sure you qualify

2518
01:42:25,360 --> 01:42:27,360
that you can't help in that situation

2519
01:42:27,360 --> 01:42:29,600
because again your role is to be a

2520
01:42:29,600 --> 01:42:31,119
judge. And you want to make sure that

2521
01:42:31,119 --> 01:42:34,719
there's a very clear delineation between

2522
01:42:34,719 --> 01:42:36,719
acting as a judge, acting as a hearing

2523
01:42:36,719 --> 01:42:38,960
officer, acting as a commission member

2524
01:42:38,960 --> 01:42:40,880
and quote unquote helping in the

2525
01:42:40,880 --> 01:42:42,800
situation.

2526
01:42:42,800 --> 01:42:45,440
Exparte includes uh discussions, phone

2527
01:42:45,440 --> 01:42:47,360
calls, emails, text messages,

2528
01:42:47,360 --> 01:42:50,080
independent internet research, uh

2529
01:42:50,080 --> 01:42:52,800
pictures, uh site visits. Now, again,

2530
01:42:52,800 --> 01:42:54,480
things that don't come up during the

2531
01:42:54,480 --> 01:42:56,080
hearing

2532
01:42:56,080 --> 01:42:58,320
or outside the public hearing fall into

2533
01:42:58,320 --> 01:43:01,840
the into the category of exploit.

2534
01:43:01,840 --> 01:43:03,600
Really, the key point is that as I

2535
01:43:03,600 --> 01:43:05,679
mentioned earlier, all factf finding

2536
01:43:05,679 --> 01:43:07,679
should be done during the hearing. It's

2537
01:43:07,679 --> 01:43:10,880
the applicant's responsibility to

2538
01:43:10,880 --> 01:43:13,520
communicate to you to your satisfaction

2539
01:43:13,520 --> 01:43:15,600
that their proposal meets the criteria.

2540
01:43:15,600 --> 01:43:17,760
If you feel that [clears throat]

2541
01:43:17,760 --> 01:43:20,000
uh an aerial photograph of the property

2542
01:43:20,000 --> 01:43:22,560
is important, uh the applicant is the

2543
01:43:22,560 --> 01:43:24,080
one that bears the responsibility to do

2544
01:43:24,080 --> 01:43:26,159
that. And it's absolutely acceptable for

2545
01:43:26,159 --> 01:43:28,800
this commission to say, "Mr. Williams,

2546
01:43:28,800 --> 01:43:30,400
we need to see an aerial photograph."

2547
01:43:30,400 --> 01:43:31,600
And you keep talking about how the

2548
01:43:31,600 --> 01:43:34,560
topography on your lot is much different

2549
01:43:34,560 --> 01:43:36,960
than than surrounding lots. give me

2550
01:43:36,960 --> 01:43:39,119
something that I can, you know, roll up

2551
01:43:39,119 --> 01:43:42,159
my sleeves and look into. Uh I need more

2552
01:43:42,159 --> 01:43:44,239
than than you simply just testifying to

2553
01:43:44,239 --> 01:43:45,679
the fact that that's absolutely

2554
01:43:45,679 --> 01:43:47,440
appropriate uh to come from the

2555
01:43:47,440 --> 01:43:51,510
commission.

2556
01:43:51,520 --> 01:43:53,440
Why prohibit export communications? It's

2557
01:43:53,440 --> 01:43:56,400
not fair. That that's in a nutshell. The

2558
01:43:56,400 --> 01:43:58,560
decision maker can be accur inaccurately

2559
01:43:58,560 --> 01:44:00,080
informed. They can be improperly

2560
01:44:00,080 --> 01:44:02,960
influenced. Uh it only gives one side of

2561
01:44:02,960 --> 01:44:04,400
the story. if we're having a

2562
01:44:04,400 --> 01:44:07,760
conversation about my project uh while

2563
01:44:07,760 --> 01:44:09,920
we wait for our prescriptions to get

2564
01:44:09,920 --> 01:44:12,560
filled at Walgreens, right?

2565
01:44:12,560 --> 01:44:15,119
Even if there's an absence of actual

2566
01:44:15,119 --> 01:44:17,520
influence or misinformation, other

2567
01:44:17,520 --> 01:44:19,119
parties may feel that they've been

2568
01:44:19,119 --> 01:44:21,440
cheated and and believe that the the

2569
01:44:21,440 --> 01:44:23,199
process has been tainted and we don't

2570
01:44:23,199 --> 01:44:25,280
want to do that. Again, you want to hold

2571
01:44:25,280 --> 01:44:29,360
on and retain community trust.

2572
01:44:29,360 --> 01:44:30,880
Uh it's possible for a commission

2573
01:44:30,880 --> 01:44:32,480
engaged in exartic communication,

2574
01:44:32,480 --> 01:44:34,880
particularly of an ongoing or recurring

2575
01:44:34,880 --> 01:44:37,520
nature to develop a reputation for being

2576
01:44:37,520 --> 01:44:39,760
susceptible to improper influence. Uh

2577
01:44:39,760 --> 01:44:41,440
and again that diminishes community

2578
01:44:41,440 --> 01:44:45,119
trust. Uh and the big one uh expparte

2579
01:44:45,119 --> 01:44:46,719
communications can invalidate the

2580
01:44:46,719 --> 01:44:48,320
actions of the hearing body should an

2581
01:44:48,320 --> 01:44:51,040
appeal be filed uh and it gets to the

2582
01:44:51,040 --> 01:44:53,360
court or it even gets to the governing

2583
01:44:53,360 --> 01:44:54,880
body and the governing body determines

2584
01:44:54,880 --> 01:44:57,040
that some sort of exparte communication

2585
01:44:57,040 --> 01:44:59,679
has taken place. It is not uncommon for

2586
01:44:59,679 --> 01:45:02,320
courts to say, "We're saying you

2587
01:45:02,320 --> 01:45:03,920
shouldn't have done that." So, you get

2588
01:45:03,920 --> 01:45:05,760
dinged for doing something you shouldn't

2589
01:45:05,760 --> 01:45:08,080
have done. Uh, and then they make you do

2590
01:45:08,080 --> 01:45:10,880
it all over again. Uh, and that

2591
01:45:10,880 --> 01:45:13,040
essentially is waste of time, effort,

2592
01:45:13,040 --> 01:45:15,360
and resources because you have to do it

2593
01:45:15,360 --> 01:45:16,719
again because you didn't do it right the

2594
01:45:16,719 --> 01:45:19,199
first time.

2595
01:45:19,199 --> 01:45:21,840
I am a a baseball fan. Uh, not because

2596
01:45:21,840 --> 01:45:24,400
I'm a retired old man, but I just I've

2597
01:45:24,400 --> 01:45:26,560
always loved baseball. But in the last

2598
01:45:26,560 --> 01:45:28,880
couple years, I have the striking

2599
01:45:28,880 --> 01:45:31,360
similarities between baseball and

2600
01:45:31,360 --> 01:45:34,080
planning and zoning. Think about it.

2601
01:45:34,080 --> 01:45:36,560
Baseball is established on the seven

2602
01:45:36,560 --> 01:45:39,760
rules and when it's appropriate,

2603
01:45:39,760 --> 01:45:42,560
those rules can be changed. Those rules

2604
01:45:42,560 --> 01:45:45,040
provide predictability.

2605
01:45:45,040 --> 01:45:48,719
If my good buddy uh Mr. Show Atani hits

2606
01:45:48,719 --> 01:45:52,639
a sharp drive to right center field,

2607
01:45:52,639 --> 01:45:54,960
what's he going to do?

2608
01:45:54,960 --> 01:45:56,560
You guys know this, right? He hits the

2609
01:45:56,560 --> 01:45:58,480
ball. Where's he gonna run?

2610
01:45:58,480 --> 01:45:59,199
>> First base.

2611
01:45:59,199 --> 01:46:02,320
What if he said, "Well, in

2612
01:46:02,320 --> 01:46:04,800
Japan, we always run to third base. We

2613
01:46:04,800 --> 01:46:06,480
I've never been taught to run to first

2614
01:46:06,480 --> 01:46:09,760
base. Does that matter?" No. We would

2615
01:46:09,760 --> 01:46:13,920
say it's the rules of the game.

2616
01:46:13,920 --> 01:46:17,760
Um, so it provides a level of

2617
01:46:17,760 --> 01:46:20,960
predictability. There's a large focus uh

2618
01:46:20,960 --> 01:46:23,040
on the fans in baseball. I love going to

2619
01:46:23,040 --> 01:46:25,280
the Isotopes game because it's it's very

2620
01:46:25,280 --> 01:46:28,560
familyoriented. They want people engaged

2621
01:46:28,560 --> 01:46:31,440
and having fun. That's part of it. So

2622
01:46:31,440 --> 01:46:33,119
they remember who their who their

2623
01:46:33,119 --> 01:46:36,239
audience is, right? Cheating is

2624
01:46:36,239 --> 01:46:37,920
condemned.

2625
01:46:37,920 --> 01:46:42,320
I won't say to you US. Uh and finally,

2626
01:46:42,320 --> 01:46:44,080
the contest is determined based on the

2627
01:46:44,080 --> 01:46:46,560
culmination of events. It doesn't matter

2628
01:46:46,560 --> 01:46:49,119
how many runs are scored uh you know in

2629
01:46:49,119 --> 01:46:51,119
the first inning. I could score 12 runs

2630
01:46:51,119 --> 01:46:53,040
and doesn't mean that the game is is

2631
01:46:53,040 --> 01:46:55,440
locked up. We we wait till we get to the

2632
01:46:55,440 --> 01:46:57,520
end of the game and it's a culmination

2633
01:46:57,520 --> 01:47:00,719
of everything that's occurred. Uh it

2634
01:47:00,719 --> 01:47:03,119
renders the result as to who won and and

2635
01:47:03,119 --> 01:47:07,840
who didn't. Planning and zoning stuff

2636
01:47:07,840 --> 01:47:09,840
is very simple. There's a set of

2637
01:47:09,840 --> 01:47:11,520
established rules that we have to play

2638
01:47:11,520 --> 01:47:14,239
by. There's a level of predictability

2639
01:47:14,239 --> 01:47:16,560
that should be part of the process. If

2640
01:47:16,560 --> 01:47:19,280
it's necessary to modify, to change, or

2641
01:47:19,280 --> 01:47:21,840
to tweak a rule, there's a process to do

2642
01:47:21,840 --> 01:47:24,400
that. There's a large focus on the

2643
01:47:24,400 --> 01:47:26,239
public. Maybe they're fans, maybe

2644
01:47:26,239 --> 01:47:28,159
they're not, but again, who are we here

2645
01:47:28,159 --> 01:47:30,960
to serve? It's it's a public process uh

2646
01:47:30,960 --> 01:47:33,360
meant to engage the public. So, we need

2647
01:47:33,360 --> 01:47:36,000
to stay focused on the public. In this

2648
01:47:36,000 --> 01:47:38,880
P&Z process, much like baseball,

2649
01:47:38,880 --> 01:47:42,000
cheating is a no-go. You cannot cheat.

2650
01:47:42,000 --> 01:47:43,760
You have to play by the rules. You can't

2651
01:47:43,760 --> 01:47:46,080
bend them. You can't tweak them.

2652
01:47:46,080 --> 01:47:47,679
There is a process if they're not

2653
01:47:47,679 --> 01:47:50,239
working you you can go through but

2654
01:47:50,239 --> 01:47:52,080
making up your own rules is not allowed

2655
01:47:52,080 --> 01:47:54,320
in planning and zoning matters. Finally,

2656
01:47:54,320 --> 01:47:56,719
a decision is based on the culmination

2657
01:47:56,719 --> 01:47:59,760
of the evidence that's presented to the

2658
01:47:59,760 --> 01:48:02,320
decision.

2659
01:48:02,320 --> 01:48:04,560
Here are the rules of the game. All

2660
01:48:04,560 --> 01:48:06,480
witnesses have to be sworn in and all

2661
01:48:06,480 --> 01:48:09,040
testimony has to be provided under oath.

2662
01:48:09,040 --> 01:48:10,560
You've got to provide an opportunity for

2663
01:48:10,560 --> 01:48:13,600
cross-examination of witnesses.

2664
01:48:13,600 --> 01:48:15,760
expert and communications must be

2665
01:48:15,760 --> 01:48:17,360
avoided.

2666
01:48:17,360 --> 01:48:19,360
All the evidence in the record has to be

2667
01:48:19,360 --> 01:48:20,880
considered in the decision. And again,

2668
01:48:20,880 --> 01:48:22,560
as I mentioned earlier, some evidence

2669
01:48:22,560 --> 01:48:24,560
can carry greater weight than others,

2670
01:48:24,560 --> 01:48:26,960
but everything that's presented has to

2671
01:48:26,960 --> 01:48:28,960
be considered.

2672
01:48:28,960 --> 01:48:30,560
You've got to provide a written decision

2673
01:48:30,560 --> 01:48:32,639
which outlines the facts that support

2674
01:48:32,639 --> 01:48:35,040
your determination. And last but not

2675
01:48:35,040 --> 01:48:36,800
least, all involved or interested

2676
01:48:36,800 --> 01:48:39,360
parties are entitled uh to notice. They

2677
01:48:39,360 --> 01:48:42,080
get a copy of the decision that's made.

2678
01:48:42,080 --> 01:48:44,239
They get a copy of announcement about

2679
01:48:44,239 --> 01:48:46,080
where the hearing will be held, things

2680
01:48:46,080 --> 01:48:50,870
of that nature.

2681
01:48:50,880 --> 01:48:54,159
Last time I'll ask this questions.

2682
01:48:54,159 --> 01:48:54,960
>> Yes,

2683
01:48:54,960 --> 01:48:57,520
>> this is I think similar to the question

2684
01:48:57,520 --> 01:49:01,669
I asked you

2685
01:49:01,679 --> 01:49:03,520
almost a year ago.

2686
01:49:03,520 --> 01:49:03,920
>> Um,

2687
01:49:03,920 --> 01:49:05,840
>> seems to get the same answer, right?

2688
01:49:05,840 --> 01:49:08,719
>> I hope so. Um,

2689
01:49:08,719 --> 01:49:15,360
so if uh In the example you gave, uh,

2690
01:49:15,360 --> 01:49:19,520
the commission says, "We can we don't

2691
01:49:19,520 --> 01:49:21,600
have a real sense of what you're saying

2692
01:49:21,600 --> 01:49:24,880
about the contour of your land."

2693
01:49:24,880 --> 01:49:27,679
Um,

2694
01:49:27,679 --> 01:49:30,960
and we need more information. What do we

2695
01:49:30,960 --> 01:49:34,960
do with the application? Do we

2696
01:49:34,960 --> 01:49:37,440
hold it over to the next meeting? Is

2697
01:49:37,440 --> 01:49:40,239
there a technical word for that?

2698
01:49:40,239 --> 01:49:42,480
Sometimes people

2699
01:49:42,480 --> 01:49:45,360
I need you to decide one way or another.

2700
01:49:45,360 --> 01:49:49,760
I've got all this money put into it.

2701
01:49:49,760 --> 01:49:53,199
>> Um well, you could I mean I've heard it

2702
01:49:53,199 --> 01:49:54,719
referred to as a deferral. We're going

2703
01:49:54,719 --> 01:49:57,280
to take item 5G and we're going to defer

2704
01:49:57,280 --> 01:50:00,320
it to the August 12th meeting. Uh you

2705
01:50:00,320 --> 01:50:02,560
could also continue and again the

2706
01:50:02,560 --> 01:50:06,320
distinction is really not important uh

2707
01:50:06,320 --> 01:50:08,880
for our purposes today but you could

2708
01:50:08,880 --> 01:50:11,040
continue the matter meaning you're going

2709
01:50:11,040 --> 01:50:12,400
to pause it and you're going to pick up

2710
01:50:12,400 --> 01:50:15,520
later when it's rescheduled. Uh but if

2711
01:50:15,520 --> 01:50:18,560
you've got and I've been there uh you've

2712
01:50:18,560 --> 01:50:21,119
got you know give me some give me

2713
01:50:21,119 --> 01:50:23,280
something to sink my teeth into help me

2714
01:50:23,280 --> 01:50:25,199
help you kind of thing and you've got

2715
01:50:25,199 --> 01:50:26,800
people that say I don't know what to do

2716
01:50:26,800 --> 01:50:29,280
or I've already been doing this months

2717
01:50:29,280 --> 01:50:31,040
and I don't want to spend another $3,000

2718
01:50:31,040 --> 01:50:33,520
as my engineer.

2719
01:50:33,520 --> 01:50:35,760
Um, you've kind of painted yourself in a

2720
01:50:35,760 --> 01:50:37,920
corner as an applicant. Uh, if the

2721
01:50:37,920 --> 01:50:39,600
commission doesn't have enough

2722
01:50:39,600 --> 01:50:42,719
information to make a favorable

2723
01:50:42,719 --> 01:50:45,440
decision, you're left with one choice.

2724
01:50:45,440 --> 01:50:46,960
Well, really two. You could you can

2725
01:50:46,960 --> 01:50:48,639
continue it and ask them to give you

2726
01:50:48,639 --> 01:50:50,800
that additional information. But if an

2727
01:50:50,800 --> 01:50:54,880
applicant won't or can't uh get to you

2728
01:50:54,880 --> 01:50:58,400
what you need, then I would argue that

2729
01:50:58,400 --> 01:51:00,080
they're not meeting the criteria. You've

2730
01:51:00,080 --> 01:51:01,360
still got questions. You're not

2731
01:51:01,360 --> 01:51:03,840
convinced that uh that the applicant's

2732
01:51:03,840 --> 01:51:06,719
argument meets the the criteria for

2733
01:51:06,719 --> 01:51:09,920
approval by default. You're denying the

2734
01:51:09,920 --> 01:51:11,520
request.

2735
01:51:11,520 --> 01:51:14,880
>> So, with a denial, uh they can obviously

2736
01:51:14,880 --> 01:51:17,520
come back at a later date, but they have

2737
01:51:17,520 --> 01:51:19,760
to go through the whole start all over

2738
01:51:19,760 --> 01:51:20,719
again.

2739
01:51:20,719 --> 01:51:23,840
>> Sure. Or they could uh they could appeal

2740
01:51:23,840 --> 01:51:26,960
that denial uh to the governing body,

2741
01:51:26,960 --> 01:51:30,320
>> right? who again in my scenario here in

2742
01:51:30,320 --> 01:51:32,560
our little scenario here I would hope

2743
01:51:32,560 --> 01:51:34,080
the governing body would say well the

2744
01:51:34,080 --> 01:51:36,000
planning and zoning commission asked you

2745
01:51:36,000 --> 01:51:39,360
Mr. Williams to provide uh topographic

2746
01:51:39,360 --> 01:51:41,520
survey and you said that costs too much

2747
01:51:41,520 --> 01:51:43,119
money.

2748
01:51:43,119 --> 01:51:44,800
What's changed? Well, nothing. I just

2749
01:51:44,800 --> 01:51:46,800
don't want to do it. Well, again, now at

2750
01:51:46,800 --> 01:51:49,199
the governing body level, we're unable

2751
01:51:49,199 --> 01:51:51,840
to make a decision because we need this

2752
01:51:51,840 --> 01:51:53,679
evidence or we need this information as

2753
01:51:53,679 --> 01:51:54,719
well,

2754
01:51:54,719 --> 01:51:55,679
>> right?

2755
01:51:55,679 --> 01:51:57,920
>> But if you

2756
01:51:57,920 --> 01:52:01,119
defer or continue,

2757
01:52:01,119 --> 01:52:05,199
uh does notice have to be reposted? Uh

2758
01:52:05,199 --> 01:52:06,560
well, it's possible. I mean, it would

2759
01:52:06,560 --> 01:52:09,040
depend on on what your what your code,

2760
01:52:09,040 --> 01:52:11,280
your local code requires, some

2761
01:52:11,280 --> 01:52:12,800
jurisdiction and your rules of

2762
01:52:12,800 --> 01:52:16,320
procedure. Uh some communities require

2763
01:52:16,320 --> 01:52:19,040
notice all over again. Some don't. Uh

2764
01:52:19,040 --> 01:52:20,880
sometimes that's an argument that

2765
01:52:20,880 --> 01:52:24,400
applicants will make to avoid uh that if

2766
01:52:24,400 --> 01:52:26,719
there's a requirement for me to pay for

2767
01:52:26,719 --> 01:52:29,440
signs and repost and pay for the legal

2768
01:52:29,440 --> 01:52:30,880
ad that's going to be run in the

2769
01:52:30,880 --> 01:52:34,239
newspaper again, pay for mail out. Uh

2770
01:52:34,239 --> 01:52:36,403
have that kind of money. Um, you

2771
01:52:36,403 --> 01:52:37,760
[snorts] know, it's not meant to be

2772
01:52:37,760 --> 01:52:40,080
punitive in nature. Uh, but we it's a

2773
01:52:40,080 --> 01:52:41,599
public process. So, we've got to make

2774
01:52:41,599 --> 01:52:42,800
sure we meet all those public

2775
01:52:42,800 --> 01:52:44,960
notification requirements and they come

2776
01:52:44,960 --> 01:52:46,080
with a cost.

2777
01:52:46,080 --> 01:52:48,480
>> I I can answer part of that if if you if

2778
01:52:48,480 --> 01:52:50,800
allowed. So, this has happened a couple

2779
01:52:50,800 --> 01:52:52,159
of times where something had to come

2780
01:52:52,159 --> 01:52:55,119
back as long as during the actual

2781
01:52:55,119 --> 01:52:57,440
meeting we say this matter will be

2782
01:52:57,440 --> 01:53:00,000
deferred to a date certain, which is

2783
01:53:00,000 --> 01:53:01,840
potentially the next meeting. You know,

2784
01:53:01,840 --> 01:53:03,520
we've asked the applicant, can you have

2785
01:53:03,520 --> 01:53:06,400
what what we need you to have by the

2786
01:53:06,400 --> 01:53:08,000
next meeting or should we make it two

2787
01:53:08,000 --> 01:53:09,920
meetings out? Then the presumption is

2788
01:53:09,920 --> 01:53:11,840
that everyone in the room or on the Zoom

2789
01:53:11,840 --> 01:53:14,159
who's interested in that matter will

2790
01:53:14,159 --> 01:53:16,000
hear, oh, now it's going to be heard in

2791
01:53:16,000 --> 01:53:18,000
September on this date and then it will

2792
01:53:18,000 --> 01:53:19,920
show up on that meeting notice and and

2793
01:53:19,920 --> 01:53:23,040
agenda and that's sufficient. But if it

2794
01:53:23,040 --> 01:53:24,800
just if it just takes them six months,

2795
01:53:24,800 --> 01:53:26,400
then we just they they're going to pay

2796
01:53:26,400 --> 01:53:29,679
for certified letters again and etc,

2797
01:53:29,679 --> 01:53:31,520
>> And that's a very common

2798
01:53:31,520 --> 01:53:33,388
approach is to you know it

2799
01:53:33,388 --> 01:53:35,199
[clears throat] can there's no hard and

2800
01:53:35,199 --> 01:53:38,080
fast rule on that other than uh notice

2801
01:53:38,080 --> 01:53:40,960
has to be uh initially provided but some

2802
01:53:40,960 --> 01:53:44,880
commissions may choose to not have to

2803
01:53:44,880 --> 01:53:47,119
renotice or not send mail outs or things

2804
01:53:47,119 --> 01:53:49,360
of that nature and some commissions may

2805
01:53:49,360 --> 01:53:52,000
choose to

2806
01:53:52,000 --> 01:53:53,760
may opt to to require

2807
01:53:53,760 --> 01:53:56,560
>> and I want to clarify the distinction

2808
01:53:56,560 --> 01:54:00,239
between your 15 days and our 20 days.

2809
01:54:00,239 --> 01:54:06,159
Yes. Yes. 15 is is the legal minimum. Uh

2810
01:54:06,159 --> 01:54:09,679
if you've got something more than that, that that's a okay. It just can't

2811
01:54:09,679 --> 01:54:12,560
be 14 or fewer days. It's got to be at

2812
01:54:12,560 --> 01:54:14,639
least 15.

2813
01:54:14,639 --> 01:54:17,440
>> So Brandon, you think uh premeings would

2814
01:54:17,440 --> 01:54:18,880
solve some of these problems?

2815
01:54:18,880 --> 01:54:21,360
>> Oh, good point. Uh yes. I mean, that's

2816
01:54:21,360 --> 01:54:23,840
an option that I've seen in communities.

2817
01:54:23,840 --> 01:54:26,400
Uh some communities, Albuquerque for

2818
01:54:26,400 --> 01:54:29,040
example, for certain requests require a

2819
01:54:29,040 --> 01:54:30,400
pre-application.

2820
01:54:30,400 --> 01:54:32,480
>> Yeah, I think we need to look at that

2821
01:54:32,480 --> 01:54:35,280
>> and and that really kind of uh creates a

2822
01:54:35,280 --> 01:54:37,360
step in the process that helps you as a

2823
01:54:37,360 --> 01:54:40,199
commission ensure that people aren't

2824
01:54:40,199 --> 01:54:41,599
[clears throat] just coming in blind,

2825
01:54:41,599 --> 01:54:42,159
right?

2826
01:54:42,159 --> 01:54:43,679
>> Because not everybody that comes before

2827
01:54:43,679 --> 01:54:46,400
you has experience in development, land

2828
01:54:46,400 --> 01:54:48,639
use, subdivision, things of that nature.

2829
01:54:48,639 --> 01:54:50,400
So, uh, if you've got somebody that's

2830
01:54:50,400 --> 01:54:53,440
relatively new, a local mom and pop come

2831
01:54:53,440 --> 01:54:55,440
in and they want to subdivide their

2832
01:54:55,440 --> 01:54:57,679
property, requiring them to go through a

2833
01:54:57,679 --> 01:55:00,159
pre-application meeting ensures that

2834
01:55:00,159 --> 01:55:02,480
staff takes time to explain to them,

2835
01:55:02,480 --> 01:55:04,320
give them the materials that they need,

2836
01:55:04,320 --> 01:55:07,040
outlines the criteria, tells them the

2837
01:55:07,040 --> 01:55:08,719
process. This is step one, this is step

2838
01:55:08,719 --> 01:55:10,320
two, this is step three. So,

2839
01:55:10,320 --> 01:55:12,480
>> and I've been to Albuquerquey's and

2840
01:55:12,480 --> 01:55:15,360
Santa Fe's pre meetings. They're great.

2841
01:55:15,360 --> 01:55:18,320
They solve a lot of problems before

2842
01:55:18,320 --> 01:55:20,560
we end up looking at things.

2843
01:55:20,560 --> 01:55:22,239
>> Correct. And that that's the that's the

2844
01:55:22,239 --> 01:55:25,840
benefit which is yes uh staff is

2845
01:55:25,840 --> 01:55:28,320
identifying issues that may come up. My

2846
01:55:28,320 --> 01:55:30,000
earlier example about the you know the

2847
01:55:30,000 --> 01:55:33,040
fire lane had that particular developer

2848
01:55:33,040 --> 01:55:35,199
gone through a pre-application meeting.

2849
01:55:35,199 --> 01:55:36,960
Perhaps they could have uh they could

2850
01:55:36,960 --> 01:55:38,960
have saved some time in their design and

2851
01:55:38,960 --> 01:55:39,920
their layout.

2852
01:55:39,920 --> 01:55:41,520
>> U so there there are benefits to that

2853
01:55:41,520 --> 01:55:43,280
but again there's not a requirement. It

2854
01:55:43,280 --> 01:55:44,639
would be something

2855
01:55:44,639 --> 01:55:46,880
>> you as a commissioner the governing body

2856
01:55:46,880 --> 01:55:48,480
uh could push forward.

2857
01:55:48,480 --> 01:55:52,159
>> So, can the commission require that? Can

2858
01:55:52,159 --> 01:55:54,960
we make that ruling or do we need to go

2859
01:55:54,960 --> 01:55:56,480
before the council?

2860
01:55:56,480 --> 01:55:57,920
>> Well, you got you got to have to make it

2861
01:55:57,920 --> 01:55:59,760
a require has to be adopted, codified,

2862
01:55:59,760 --> 01:56:00,800
and finally [clears throat] adopted

2863
01:56:00,800 --> 01:56:02,639
through through the legislative process

2864
01:56:02,639 --> 01:56:03,520
to do that.

2865
01:56:03,520 --> 01:56:04,000
>> Okay.

2866
01:56:04,000 --> 01:56:08,480
>> Uh just requiring it uh not spec if it's

2867
01:56:08,480 --> 01:56:10,880
not called out in the ordinance, you're

2868
01:56:10,880 --> 01:56:13,440
you've got some legal liability in

2869
01:56:13,440 --> 01:56:15,280
requiring people to do that if if the

2870
01:56:15,280 --> 01:56:17,119
code doesn't specifically they have to

2871
01:56:17,119 --> 01:56:17,360
do.

2872
01:56:17,360 --> 01:56:20,159
>> It's definitely a positive thing to do.

2873
01:56:20,159 --> 01:56:22,080
>> Sure. And and I've also seen communities

2874
01:56:22,080 --> 01:56:24,480
that uh strongly recommend it. They

2875
01:56:24,480 --> 01:56:26,480
don't require somebody to go through it.

2876
01:56:26,480 --> 01:56:28,320
Uh but they will say something along the

2877
01:56:28,320 --> 01:56:31,040
lines of all applicants are strongly

2878
01:56:31,040 --> 01:56:33,119
recommend to meet with the planning and

2879
01:56:33,119 --> 01:56:34,719
zoning director prior to filing an

2880
01:56:34,719 --> 01:56:36,239
application so that you understand the

2881
01:56:36,239 --> 01:56:38,560
process, the steps, the costs, things of

2882
01:56:38,560 --> 01:56:39,119
that nature.

2883
01:56:39,119 --> 01:56:41,280
>> And you got it. I was going to say I do

2884
01:56:41,280 --> 01:56:42,560
that already. You're talking about

2885
01:56:42,560 --> 01:56:44,400
having an extra commission meeting

2886
01:56:44,400 --> 01:56:46,560
because all applicants do meet with me

2887
01:56:46,560 --> 01:56:47,360
prior to

2888
01:56:47,360 --> 01:56:50,239
>> Yes, it's a premeating where commission

2889
01:56:50,239 --> 01:56:52,239
are present

2890
01:56:52,239 --> 01:56:55,280
but we're not making a decision. We're

2891
01:56:55,280 --> 01:56:58,400
listening to and the applicants are also

2892
01:56:58,400 --> 01:57:01,040
present too to listening to the

2893
01:57:01,040 --> 01:57:03,040
discussion and we're taking in that

2894
01:57:03,040 --> 01:57:05,520
information and we're not making a

2895
01:57:05,520 --> 01:57:07,599
decision at a premeating

2896
01:57:07,599 --> 01:57:09,840
>> and I

2897
01:57:09,840 --> 01:57:11,440
>> am I accurate on my description

2898
01:57:11,440 --> 01:57:13,199
>> very common do you all have a a sketch

2899
01:57:13,199 --> 01:57:15,199
plat process here as it relates to your

2900
01:57:15,199 --> 01:57:17,119
subdivision application so that's what a

2901
01:57:17,119 --> 01:57:19,280
sketch plat meeting is is that it's it's

2902
01:57:19,280 --> 01:57:22,560
informal a decision is not made but it

2903
01:57:22,560 --> 01:57:24,080
allowsbody

2904
01:57:24,080 --> 01:57:25,040
everybody everybody to get in the same

2905
01:57:25,040 --> 01:57:28,000
room and kind of look at the map or roll

2906
01:57:28,000 --> 01:57:30,400
out the map and and say this is what I'm

2907
01:57:30,400 --> 01:57:32,719
proposing and there may be some

2908
01:57:32,719 --> 01:57:34,480
suggestions or there may be some

2909
01:57:34,480 --> 01:57:36,800
cautions uh that are that are expressed

2910
01:57:36,800 --> 01:57:38,320
to an applicant but it's really just to

2911
01:57:38,320 --> 01:57:42,239
kind of get everybody familiar uh in

2912
01:57:42,239 --> 01:57:43,599
this scenario with a subdivision

2913
01:57:43,599 --> 01:57:45,599
application get folks familiar with

2914
01:57:45,599 --> 01:57:47,520
what's coming what what's going to be

2915
01:57:47,520 --> 01:57:50,080
coming formally before the commission.

2916
01:57:50,080 --> 01:57:52,880
>> Yeah. But not everything we see goes

2917
01:57:52,880 --> 01:57:55,280
through a sketch plot. Correct.

2918
01:57:55,280 --> 01:57:56,480
Everything we can

2919
01:57:56,480 --> 01:57:58,080
>> correct. If it's a if it's a summary

2920
01:57:58,080 --> 01:58:00,239
plat, you know, one lot into two,

2921
01:58:00,239 --> 01:58:02,000
something like that, I I don't require a

2922
01:58:02,000 --> 01:58:03,840
sketch, but if it's one of those pretty

2923
01:58:03,840 --> 01:58:06,400
good size subdivisions, we absolutely do

2924
01:58:06,400 --> 01:58:08,639
so that you can see it and, you know, we

2925
01:58:08,639 --> 01:58:10,000
can thrash out things like fire

2926
01:58:10,000 --> 01:58:13,119
suppression and etc. You know, just

2927
01:58:13,119 --> 01:58:18,070
something of a large nature.

2928
01:58:18,080 --> 01:58:34,390
would change

2929
01:58:34,400 --> 01:58:38,470
the actual

2930
01:58:38,480 --> 01:58:41,599
» um if I'm understanding it would depend

2931
01:58:41,599 --> 01:58:45,520
upon what what your rules require.

2932
01:58:45,520 --> 01:58:49,199
So if if you have adopted

2933
01:58:49,199 --> 01:58:52,000
on the books rules that that don't

2934
01:58:52,000 --> 01:58:54,320
require a second round of notice after

2935
01:58:54,320 --> 01:58:56,480
the initial,

2936
01:58:56,480 --> 01:58:58,960
then you wouldn't have to worry. You

2937
01:58:58,960 --> 01:59:00,159
know, the time periods wouldn't really

2938
01:59:00,159 --> 01:59:02,880
come to effect. However, if if you don't

2939
01:59:02,880 --> 01:59:05,840
have some exclusion or something that

2940
01:59:05,840 --> 01:59:08,080
allows you to kind of deviate from the

2941
01:59:08,080 --> 01:59:10,480
normal process,

2942
01:59:10,480 --> 01:59:12,320
it it may bump when your hearing can be

2943
01:59:12,320 --> 01:59:14,880
heard because you got to backdate it in

2944
01:59:14,880 --> 01:59:16,320
order to meet all your public notice

2945
01:59:16,320 --> 01:59:18,560
requirements. And so, uh you know, I

2946
01:59:18,560 --> 01:59:19,920
need I want to come back in August. I

2947
01:59:19,920 --> 01:59:21,599
want to come back in August. Well, we

2948
01:59:21,599 --> 01:59:23,280
don't have enough time to advertise and

2949
01:59:23,280 --> 01:59:24,880
send notice and do all that sort of

2950
01:59:24,880 --> 01:59:26,800
thing. The earliest we can get you in

2951
01:59:26,800 --> 01:59:28,239
would be September. And that's just

2952
01:59:28,239 --> 01:59:31,040
because the rules are written that way.

2953
01:59:31,040 --> 01:59:39,030
>> Have you ever seen

2954
01:59:39,040 --> 01:59:56,310
» separate notice for meeting? Um,

2955
01:59:56,320 --> 01:59:59,599
» I will say the questions to I I don't

2956
01:59:59,599 --> 02:00:02,480
think so would be my horrible answer to

2957
02:00:02,480 --> 02:00:03,119
that.

2958
02:00:03,119 --> 02:00:04,880
>> Um,

2959
02:00:04,880 --> 02:00:06,560
I mean there would be nothing wrong. Let

2960
02:00:06,560 --> 02:00:10,000
me put it this way. You have to meet the

2961
02:00:10,000 --> 02:00:12,239
standard. you have to meet the minimum

2962
02:00:12,239 --> 02:00:14,800
that if you're going above and beyond

2963
02:00:14,800 --> 02:00:16,880
that generally is not an issue. So I'm

2964
02:00:16,880 --> 02:00:18,800
thinking of a scenario where there's a

2965
02:00:18,800 --> 02:00:21,360
particular case in Bernalo County that

2966
02:00:21,360 --> 02:00:23,119
was controversial

2967
02:00:23,119 --> 02:00:26,000
and the planning department decided uh

2968
02:00:26,000 --> 02:00:28,080
to to send a second notice even though

2969
02:00:28,080 --> 02:00:30,800
that was not the practice at at the time

2970
02:00:30,800 --> 02:00:33,360
but there were you know somebody above

2971
02:00:33,360 --> 02:00:36,000
my pay grade made the decision to say I

2972
02:00:36,000 --> 02:00:38,480
know it's going to cost an extra $200

2973
02:00:38,480 --> 02:00:40,320
but we want to make sure that community

2974
02:00:40,320 --> 02:00:41,840
members stay informed. So, let's send

2975
02:00:41,840 --> 02:00:44,719
out those letters again just to remind

2976
02:00:44,719 --> 02:00:46,400
them that this matter had been deferred

2977
02:00:46,400 --> 02:00:48,960
until the August hearing or whatever the

2978
02:00:48,960 --> 02:00:50,800
situation is. So, again, there wouldn't

2979
02:00:50,800 --> 02:00:52,960
be a problem with that. The problem

2980
02:00:52,960 --> 02:00:54,960
would be if you're required to send

2981
02:00:54,960 --> 02:00:57,199
notice and you don't send notice.

2982
02:00:57,199 --> 02:00:58,800
>> Okay.

2983
02:00:58,800 --> 02:01:01,520
>> So, can a premeating be set one week

2984
02:01:01,520 --> 02:01:05,599
before uh planning a zoning meeting?

2985
02:01:05,599 --> 02:01:07,599
>> You have to meet the publication dead.

2986
02:01:07,599 --> 02:01:11,040
So depending upon the action,

2987
02:01:11,040 --> 02:01:11,840
you [clears throat] should have an

2988
02:01:11,840 --> 02:01:13,679
established calendar that says in order

2989
02:01:13,679 --> 02:01:18,320
to meet this meeting, whether it's a pre-application meeting or a

2990
02:01:18,320 --> 02:01:20,239
sketch plat discussion or whatever it

2991
02:01:20,239 --> 02:01:23,280
might be, you need a hard and fast date

2992
02:01:23,280 --> 02:01:26,080
for the application to be submitted, the

2993
02:01:26,080 --> 02:01:29,360
fees to be paid, the legal ad to be run,

2994
02:01:29,360 --> 02:01:31,440
things of that nature. A week is not

2995
02:01:31,440 --> 02:01:36,550
going to give you enough time.

2996
02:01:36,560 --> 02:01:42,480
depend a lot on if 1% of the cases that

2997
02:01:42,480 --> 02:01:44,960
come in front of the commission

2998
02:01:44,960 --> 02:01:47,920
are have to have a delay because there

2999
02:01:47,920 --> 02:01:50,159
was more information

3000
02:01:50,159 --> 02:01:52,239
then there's

3001
02:01:52,239 --> 02:01:55,679
probably 95% of the time you can't make

3002
02:01:55,679 --> 02:01:58,400
a decision because

3003
02:01:58,400 --> 02:02:05,510
>> true

3004
02:02:05,520 --> 02:02:07,910
of

3005
02:02:07,920 --> 02:02:09,840
you know, the nuts and bolts of things

3006
02:02:09,840 --> 02:02:12,960
to make sure that when things come in,

3007
02:02:12,960 --> 02:02:15,360
they're in front of the commission in a

3008
02:02:15,360 --> 02:02:18,000
way that there's low chance of something

3009
02:02:18,000 --> 02:02:19,360
missing.

3010
02:02:19,360 --> 02:02:24,149
>> Yeah.

3011
02:02:24,159 --> 02:02:25,679
» Well, I I'm trying to think this through

3012
02:02:25,679 --> 02:02:27,840
in terms of, you know, we we have that

3013
02:02:27,840 --> 02:02:30,239
calendar that's in your packets and and

3014
02:02:30,239 --> 02:02:31,920
I I have the, you know, there's the date

3015
02:02:31,920 --> 02:02:33,520
of the meeting and then we back up.

3016
02:02:33,520 --> 02:02:36,400
Okay. We do a 30-day beating notice even

3017
02:02:36,400 --> 02:02:38,239
though 15 is. So, I'm trying to think,

3018
02:02:38,239 --> 02:02:40,080
okay, if if we're automatically going to

3019
02:02:40,080 --> 02:02:43,280
hear every single thing twice,

3020
02:02:43,280 --> 02:02:45,440
I have to make sure that all the

3021
02:02:45,440 --> 02:02:47,360
materials are still in by a certain

3022
02:02:47,360 --> 02:02:49,679
date. What if there's the premeating

3023
02:02:49,679 --> 02:02:51,840
here in a public meeting and the

3024
02:02:51,840 --> 02:02:54,560
commission asks for something else? Now,

3025
02:02:54,560 --> 02:02:58,639
how does that jive with, you know, now

3026
02:02:58,639 --> 02:03:00,320
there's a new notice and there's a new

3027
02:03:00,320 --> 02:03:01,840
application because there's new

3028
02:03:01,840 --> 02:03:03,760
information. I'm just trying to puzzle

3029
02:03:03,760 --> 02:03:05,760
this through. And I will say that when I

3030
02:03:05,760 --> 02:03:07,760
first started working here, I did notice

3031
02:03:07,760 --> 02:03:09,199
that there were a lot of things that

3032
02:03:09,199 --> 02:03:11,760
seemed to be heard over and over. Took

3033
02:03:11,760 --> 02:03:14,560
forever to get anything decided. And I

3034
02:03:14,560 --> 02:03:16,800
thought, well, how can that be remedied?

3035
02:03:16,800 --> 02:03:18,320
Well, the way it can be remedied is for

3036
02:03:18,320 --> 02:03:22,560
you to see it in its entirety. The first

3037
02:03:22,560 --> 02:03:24,639
time you see it, you know, to the best

3038
02:03:24,639 --> 02:03:26,239
of my ability, if something comes out in

3039
02:03:26,239 --> 02:03:27,920
a meeting, I didn't know about it, then

3040
02:03:27,920 --> 02:03:31,360
so be it. But um if somebody gives me

3041
02:03:31,360 --> 02:03:33,119
half an application, you're not going to

3042
02:03:33,119 --> 02:03:35,920
see it unless they insist. That's

3043
02:03:35,920 --> 02:03:38,159
happened one time. I said, you know,

3044
02:03:38,159 --> 02:03:39,920
it's your money. You're welcome to bring

3045
02:03:39,920 --> 02:03:42,560
this half an application and and try to

3046
02:03:42,560 --> 02:03:45,119
convince everyone, but 99.9% of the

3047
02:03:45,119 --> 02:03:47,760
time, they know everything they need in

3048
02:03:47,760 --> 02:03:49,360
the application, everything that the

3049
02:03:49,360 --> 02:03:52,800
code asks for. And and I I tell them,

3050
02:03:52,800 --> 02:03:55,040
you need to tell the planning and zoning

3051
02:03:55,040 --> 02:03:57,520
commission what it is you want to do.

3052
02:03:57,520 --> 02:03:59,679
you know, don't don't change your tune.

3053
02:03:59,679 --> 02:04:01,599
This is what you're going to do. If you

3054
02:04:01,599 --> 02:04:03,440
do a little less than that, then so be

3055
02:04:03,440 --> 02:04:05,760
it. But they need to know what is it you

3056
02:04:05,760 --> 02:04:08,080
want to do. Here's all your supporting

3057
02:04:08,080 --> 02:04:09,840
documents that they will need, the

3058
02:04:09,840 --> 02:04:11,119
commission will need.

3059
02:04:11,119 --> 02:04:14,560
>> So, Brennan, in City of Albuquerque,

3060
02:04:14,560 --> 02:04:17,280
what's the process for premeings? Is

3061
02:04:17,280 --> 02:04:21,920
there 30-day notice or can it be done?

3062
02:04:21,920 --> 02:04:25,280
>> Do you remember? Um,

3063
02:04:25,280 --> 02:04:28,159
I I don't to be completely honest. I

3064
02:04:28,159 --> 02:04:33,360
mean, I know that uh there are often

3065
02:04:33,360 --> 02:04:35,199
back in the day there used to be a rush

3066
02:04:35,199 --> 02:04:37,360
of pre-application meetings as we got

3067
02:04:37,360 --> 02:04:41,360
closer to uh application submission

3068
02:04:41,360 --> 02:04:45,119
deadline. So, people would uh want their

3069
02:04:45,119 --> 02:04:46,800
premeings so that they could then turn

3070
02:04:46,800 --> 02:04:49,440
around, you know, identify any issues or

3071
02:04:49,440 --> 02:04:51,760
any problems and then turn around and

3072
02:04:51,760 --> 02:04:54,159
submit their site development plan

3073
02:04:54,159 --> 02:04:55,920
application the following week because

3074
02:04:55,920 --> 02:04:56,880
that's

3075
02:04:56,880 --> 02:04:58,639
Thursday at close of business,

3076
02:04:58,639 --> 02:05:00,239
everything must be in in order to make

3077
02:05:00,239 --> 02:05:03,840
the August hearing. Um, but very good

3078
02:05:03,840 --> 02:05:07,040
points made here. A, is there an

3079
02:05:07,040 --> 02:05:09,520
operational need? Are you frequently as

3080
02:05:09,520 --> 02:05:11,920
a commission seeing stuff that you feel

3081
02:05:11,920 --> 02:05:13,840
is incomplete?

3082
02:05:13,840 --> 02:05:15,920
uh maybe we change the process, maybe we

3083
02:05:15,920 --> 02:05:17,760
create a pre-application, maybe we

3084
02:05:17,760 --> 02:05:20,320
modify uh the the standards, the

3085
02:05:20,320 --> 02:05:22,560
application standards and so we start

3086
02:05:22,560 --> 02:05:24,480
requiring

3087
02:05:24,480 --> 02:05:26,800
a a topo map to be submitted or or

3088
02:05:26,800 --> 02:05:28,719
whatever it is that you know your common

3089
02:05:28,719 --> 02:05:31,760
issue that you see overlooked or you

3090
02:05:31,760 --> 02:05:33,280
feel is pertinent to you making a

3091
02:05:33,280 --> 02:05:35,920
decision that applicants a lot of times

3092
02:05:35,920 --> 02:05:37,760
just come up shortly.

3093
02:05:37,760 --> 02:05:39,360
>> Yeah. And it may not be every month that

3094
02:05:39,360 --> 02:05:40,639
we need a premeating.

3095
02:05:40,639 --> 02:05:41,280
>> Correct.

3096
02:05:41,280 --> 02:05:42,800
>> Can I ask a clarifying question? I'm

3097
02:05:42,800 --> 02:05:44,719
sorry. I feel like there's two separate

3098
02:05:44,719 --> 02:05:46,800
definitions of premeings going on right

3099
02:05:46,800 --> 02:05:47,440
now.

3100
02:05:47,440 --> 02:05:49,360
>> I feel like you're talking about a

3101
02:05:49,360 --> 02:05:51,520
premeating being with staff and the

3102
02:05:51,520 --> 02:05:53,679
applicant to walk through what's needed.

3103
02:05:53,679 --> 02:05:55,840
And I feel like what's being conveyed

3104
02:05:55,840 --> 02:05:57,599
here is about the letter that we got

3105
02:05:57,599 --> 02:05:59,760
that you weren't privy to about Well,

3106
02:05:59,760 --> 02:06:00,960
but you were in the room, so you got to

3107
02:06:00,960 --> 02:06:05,119
hear it is about the commission meeting

3108
02:06:05,119 --> 02:06:07,199
um with

3109
02:06:07,199 --> 02:06:10,239
>> staff and potentially the applicant just

3110
02:06:10,239 --> 02:06:13,840
to hear everything that's being Correct.

3111
02:06:13,840 --> 02:06:16,159
>> And have the input by staff but not make

3112
02:06:16,159 --> 02:06:18,000
a decision. So I just want to make sure

3113
02:06:18,000 --> 02:06:19,760
that we're being really clear about the

3114
02:06:19,760 --> 02:06:21,199
two conversations.

3115
02:06:21,199 --> 02:06:26,239
>> I appreciate that. And you're right. I'm the way I'm thinking is it could be

3116
02:06:26,239 --> 02:06:27,920
done.

3117
02:06:27,920 --> 02:06:29,920
Both both paths are possible whether

3118
02:06:29,920 --> 02:06:33,199
it's it's a meeting outside of of

3119
02:06:33,199 --> 02:06:35,440
commission involvement that occurs prior

3120
02:06:35,440 --> 02:06:37,840
to an application being made and it's

3121
02:06:37,840 --> 02:06:40,639
simply uh planning staff. It may I'm

3122
02:06:40,639 --> 02:06:42,560
just making it up here. It may include

3123
02:06:42,560 --> 02:06:44,079
uh the public works department and it

3124
02:06:44,079 --> 02:06:47,360
may include the fire department. Um and

3125
02:06:47,360 --> 02:06:50,400
they're each checking for respective

3126
02:06:50,400 --> 02:06:53,760
aspects of this conceptual development

3127
02:06:53,760 --> 02:06:56,719
proposal. Uh and then Lori's explaining,

3128
02:06:56,719 --> 02:06:58,480
okay, uh if you want to get on the

3129
02:06:58,480 --> 02:07:00,480
August agenda, we need your fees and

3130
02:07:00,480 --> 02:07:02,239
your materials submitted by such and

3131
02:07:02,239 --> 02:07:04,960
such a date. Yeah, I think what Jod just

3132
02:07:04,960 --> 02:07:07,920
said is she clarified what I was going

3133
02:07:07,920 --> 02:07:11,040
for this meeting where we're all

3134
02:07:11,040 --> 02:07:14,639
involved but no decisions are made. No,

3135
02:07:14,639 --> 02:07:17,040
the staff presents it to us and the

3136
02:07:17,040 --> 02:07:18,960
applicant.

3137
02:07:18,960 --> 02:07:21,599
So, we have something to work with prior

3138
02:07:21,599 --> 02:07:25,199
to the meeting actually coming up. We've

3139
02:07:25,199 --> 02:07:26,079
had

3140
02:07:26,079 --> 02:07:28,400
>> the materials. So, I don't understand

3141
02:07:28,400 --> 02:07:29,840
what this pre [clears throat]

3142
02:07:29,840 --> 02:07:31,840
meeting would be about. We have all the

3143
02:07:31,840 --> 02:07:34,239
materials in our notebooks ahead of

3144
02:07:34,239 --> 02:07:37,040
time. One of the points that was made is

3145
02:07:37,040 --> 02:07:39,520
that you should review it ahead of time.

3146
02:07:39,520 --> 02:07:41,199
You know, we had one meeting where we

3147
02:07:41,199 --> 02:07:43,360
did not have sufficient quorum and we

3148
02:07:43,360 --> 02:07:45,679
had to cancel it. People were very angry

3149
02:07:45,679 --> 02:07:47,119
that they were here. I don't think

3150
02:07:47,119 --> 02:07:49,440
they're going to be happy to come twice

3151
02:07:49,440 --> 02:07:51,520
and we say the first time, oh, we just

3152
02:07:51,520 --> 02:07:52,560
want to know what you're going to say

3153
02:07:52,560 --> 02:07:54,320
next week, but we're not going to make a

3154
02:07:54,320 --> 02:07:58,480
decision. So, I I am against that pre

3155
02:07:58,480 --> 02:08:00,320
premeating meeting. It just doesn't make

3156
02:08:00,320 --> 02:08:01,520
any sense to me,

3157
02:08:01,520 --> 02:08:02,800
>> particularly if it involves the

3158
02:08:02,800 --> 02:08:04,800
commission. And I apologize. I was here.

3159
02:08:04,800 --> 02:08:08,079
I was conscious. I think uh I didn't

3160
02:08:08,079 --> 02:08:11,599
catch all the the specifics, but I I

3161
02:08:11,599 --> 02:08:14,000
would question

3162
02:08:14,000 --> 02:08:19,589
back.

3163
02:08:19,599 --> 02:08:23,280
» Hey there. I I just wanted to uh chime

3164
02:08:23,280 --> 02:08:24,639
in with a little bit of a two cents,

3165
02:08:24,639 --> 02:08:28,079
which is that I think that

3166
02:08:28,079 --> 02:08:30,320
Well, the distinction that I would make

3167
02:08:30,320 --> 02:08:35,119
is that if you feel the need,

3168
02:08:35,119 --> 02:08:36,960
it's it's a commission decision, but if

3169
02:08:36,960 --> 02:08:39,360
there's a need to have some sort of a a

3170
02:08:39,360 --> 02:08:42,000
pre-application meeting, a you have to

3171
02:08:42,000 --> 02:08:44,159
make sure that

3172
02:08:44,159 --> 02:08:48,560
the rules allow you to do that. I would

3173
02:08:48,560 --> 02:08:50,560
question personally,

3174
02:08:50,560 --> 02:08:54,079
why would I need to come back twice?

3175
02:08:54,079 --> 02:08:58,400
Um, so I'm not understanding that need

3176
02:08:58,400 --> 02:09:02,800
or that distinction. Um, but

3177
02:09:02,800 --> 02:09:04,480
having people meet with staff, so

3178
02:09:04,480 --> 02:09:07,760
outside the commission would avoid

3179
02:09:07,760 --> 02:09:09,599
notification, you know, publication

3180
02:09:09,599 --> 02:09:12,400
fees, mail out fees,

3181
02:09:12,400 --> 02:09:14,560
legal ad things of that nature. If it

3182
02:09:14,560 --> 02:09:15,520
can [clears throat] be resolved at the

3183
02:09:15,520 --> 02:09:17,199
staff level, I think from an operational

3184
02:09:17,199 --> 02:09:19,119
standpoint, that is the mo most

3185
02:09:19,119 --> 02:09:21,280
efficient way to do it. Now, that may

3186
02:09:21,280 --> 02:09:22,960
not always work for every type of

3187
02:09:22,960 --> 02:09:25,040
application. So, some sort of

3188
02:09:25,040 --> 02:09:29,040
determination can be made if it's above

3189
02:09:29,040 --> 02:09:32,960
10 acres or or if it pertains to a

3190
02:09:32,960 --> 02:09:39,360
shopping center site or or whatever the qualifier is that requires a some

3191
02:09:39,360 --> 02:09:41,679
sort of a pre-application meeting in

3192
02:09:41,679 --> 02:09:44,239
front of the not pre-application,

3193
02:09:44,239 --> 02:09:46,239
well, like a sketch plat,

3194
02:09:46,239 --> 02:09:47,920
>> uh, some sort of a a conception. We're

3195
02:09:47,920 --> 02:09:50,320
not going to make a decision on that.

3196
02:09:50,320 --> 02:09:51,679
Again, it's got to be you got to have it

3197
02:09:51,679 --> 02:09:53,199
in writing. You can't just make that up

3198
02:09:53,199 --> 02:09:55,760
on the fly, but it might be appropriate

3199
02:09:55,760 --> 02:09:58,400
for this commission to consider certain

3200
02:09:58,400 --> 02:10:00,639
qualifiers that would necessitate that.

3201
02:10:00,639 --> 02:10:02,960
But you don't have to do that. I I

3202
02:10:02,960 --> 02:10:05,520
agree. I think while the public loves

3203
02:10:05,520 --> 02:10:07,199
government and I love planning and

3204
02:10:07,199 --> 02:10:09,520
zoning commissions, there gets to, you

3205
02:10:09,520 --> 02:10:10,880
know, you get to a point where you don't

3206
02:10:10,880 --> 02:10:12,079
want to have to go to another public

3207
02:10:12,079 --> 02:10:13,520
hearing. I I just want a decision

3208
02:10:13,520 --> 02:10:16,719
rendered uh on this so that, you know,

3209
02:10:16,719 --> 02:10:19,280
we can either build or

3210
02:10:19,280 --> 02:10:21,040
try something else or whatever it is.

3211
02:10:21,040 --> 02:10:23,199
So, you want to that you're not

3212
02:10:23,199 --> 02:10:26,079
exhausting the public by having so many

3213
02:10:26,079 --> 02:10:28,800
meetings without rendering a decision.

3214
02:10:28,800 --> 02:10:31,119
When an application comes in, to some

3215
02:10:31,119 --> 02:10:34,079
degree, it needs to be complete. What

3216
02:10:34,079 --> 02:10:36,880
that is really depends upon

3217
02:10:36,880 --> 02:10:39,920
you all and how you do your business.

3218
02:10:39,920 --> 02:10:42,079
>> Corey, can you unmute?

3219
02:10:42,079 --> 02:10:44,960
>> Uh, I should be unmuted hopefully.

3220
02:10:44,960 --> 02:10:48,239
>> She wanted to say something.

3221
02:10:48,239 --> 02:10:49,599
>> Go ahead.

3222
02:10:49,599 --> 02:10:51,679
Uh, can you guys not hear me?

3223
02:10:51,679 --> 02:10:53,440
>> We can. We can hear you.

3224
02:10:53,440 --> 02:10:55,679
>> Oh, okay. Good. Um, so what I wanted to

3225
02:10:55,679 --> 02:10:57,440
say, and I think we sort of steered away

3226
02:10:57,440 --> 02:11:00,800
from it, our attorney go ahead.

3227
02:11:00,800 --> 02:11:05,679
>> Uh, we we are veering into I think to

3228
02:11:05,679 --> 02:11:07,360
the point of this entire training into a

3229
02:11:07,360 --> 02:11:10,480
subject that is um not been

3230
02:11:10,480 --> 02:11:14,560
appropriately noticed, right? we're doing a discussion about procedure

3231
02:11:14,560 --> 02:11:16,320
um and we're treading into discussions

3232
02:11:16,320 --> 02:11:18,400
about our actual rules of transacting

3233
02:11:18,400 --> 02:11:21,360
business. Um so I would a I think we

3234
02:11:21,360 --> 02:11:23,440
sort of already did but b caution that

3235
02:11:23,440 --> 02:11:25,119
this is the kind of thing if we want to

3236
02:11:25,119 --> 02:11:27,040
engage in this discussion in a in a

3237
02:11:27,040 --> 02:11:30,320
further detail. We should consider

3238
02:11:30,320 --> 02:11:32,639
adding it to a future meeting where we

3239
02:11:32,639 --> 02:11:34,480
can get into the weeds about whether or

3240
02:11:34,480 --> 02:11:36,159
not this is something we deem necessary

3241
02:11:36,159 --> 02:11:39,199
here in the village. Um or I mean even

3242
02:11:39,199 --> 02:11:42,079
another alternative is if it's a routine

3243
02:11:42,079 --> 02:11:43,280
thing that we're finding that

3244
02:11:43,280 --> 02:11:45,760
applications feel incomplete

3245
02:11:45,760 --> 02:11:48,480
then it would behoove us to be

3246
02:11:48,480 --> 02:11:51,679
requesting more out of our ordinance or

3247
02:11:51,679 --> 02:11:53,920
application process and maybe not

3248
02:11:53,920 --> 02:11:55,520
entertaining changing our rules of

3249
02:11:55,520 --> 02:11:58,159
procedure. Um but that's all things sort

3250
02:11:58,159 --> 02:11:59,679
of just to noodle with outside of this

3251
02:11:59,679 --> 02:12:01,119
meeting. But again, we're we're veering

3252
02:12:01,119 --> 02:12:04,719
into territory that has not been noticed

3253
02:12:04,719 --> 02:12:07,599
um appropriately. So, I just wanted to

3254
02:12:07,599 --> 02:12:10,400
give that word of caution.

3255
02:12:10,400 --> 02:12:13,679
>> And if I could, as uh chair, I would

3256
02:12:13,679 --> 02:12:17,760
agree. And uh I was going to mention

3257
02:12:17,760 --> 02:12:20,000
that when we get to the item on the

3258
02:12:20,000 --> 02:12:23,040
agenda called commissioner's forum, we

3259
02:12:23,040 --> 02:12:25,679
might want to have a discussion as to

3260
02:12:25,679 --> 02:12:30,719
whether or not this item would uh be

3261
02:12:30,719 --> 02:12:33,280
noticed as part of our agenda for the

3262
02:12:33,280 --> 02:12:37,599
next meeting or some future meeting. Any

3263
02:12:37,599 --> 02:12:41,440
further questions for Mr. Williams?

3264
02:12:41,440 --> 02:12:43,760
>> Well, I guess um tied into something

3265
02:12:43,760 --> 02:12:46,480
that you had said earlier. Um if we feel

3266
02:12:46,480 --> 02:12:48,400
that they're okay, it ties into all of

3267
02:12:48,400 --> 02:12:51,360
this. If we feel that there sometimes

3268
02:12:51,360 --> 02:12:52,800
I've I've come here and I've watched the

3269
02:12:52,800 --> 02:12:54,639
meetings, you know, many times and

3270
02:12:54,639 --> 02:12:57,199
sometimes it feels like a decision, you

3271
02:12:57,199 --> 02:12:59,360
know, there's there's you're under the

3272
02:12:59,360 --> 02:13:01,040
gun. you have to make a decision right

3273
02:13:01,040 --> 02:13:04,239
now and maybe they're they're all the

3274
02:13:04,239 --> 02:13:07,040
different aspects haven't really you

3275
02:13:07,040 --> 02:13:08,400
know been considered or you know even

3276
02:13:08,400 --> 02:13:10,159
like you said judges go to chambers they

3277
02:13:10,159 --> 02:13:11,599
get to look at everything and figure it

3278
02:13:11,599 --> 02:13:13,599
out so are there other grounds where

3279
02:13:13,599 --> 02:13:16,079
sometimes like you said a pin is put in

3280
02:13:16,079 --> 02:13:18,079
it so then it's addressed at the next

3281
02:13:18,079 --> 02:13:20,960
meeting or also I forget if it was

3282
02:13:20,960 --> 02:13:22,560
planning and zoning or if it was a

3283
02:13:22,560 --> 02:13:24,239
council meeting but if there's a

3284
02:13:24,239 --> 02:13:27,199
circumstance when legal counsel um

3285
02:13:27,199 --> 02:13:28,960
there's a situation that comes up and

3286
02:13:28,960 --> 02:13:30,320
then it's like, well, what do we do in

3287
02:13:30,320 --> 02:13:31,679
this kind of situation? What's the

3288
02:13:31,679 --> 02:13:33,679
ordinance? What? And if the council

3289
02:13:33,679 --> 02:13:36,320
says, you know what, um, I'm not sure in

3290
02:13:36,320 --> 02:13:37,599
this application. You know what? I think

3291
02:13:37,599 --> 02:13:39,360
I need to look into that. Isn't that

3292
02:13:39,360 --> 02:13:41,360
grounds right then to also say, you know

3293
02:13:41,360 --> 02:13:42,880
what, we need to put a stop to this

3294
02:13:42,880 --> 02:13:44,960
right now then and not make a decision

3295
02:13:44,960 --> 02:13:47,119
on something without really knowing the

3296
02:13:47,119 --> 02:13:48,800
legalities of it or how it's being

3297
02:13:48,800 --> 02:13:50,800
interpreted based on the ordinances and

3298
02:13:50,800 --> 02:13:53,599
that kind of thing.

3299
02:13:53,599 --> 02:13:54,239
>> Yes.

3300
02:13:54,239 --> 02:13:58,880
>> Okay. I I mean again um a lot of these

3301
02:13:58,880 --> 02:14:01,199
are are issue specific

3302
02:14:01,199 --> 02:14:04,960
>> but in in your example if staff or the

3303
02:14:04,960 --> 02:14:09,280
attorney doesn't know and that answer is

3304
02:14:09,280 --> 02:14:11,679
critical to making a decision one way or

3305
02:14:11,679 --> 02:14:14,079
the other then it's absolutely

3306
02:14:14,079 --> 02:14:19,119
appropriate to defer continue pause

3307
02:14:19,119 --> 02:14:21,360
you know get an answer and then bring it

3308
02:14:21,360 --> 02:14:23,119
up at a later time I mean that may

3309
02:14:23,119 --> 02:14:25,280
result in somebody, you know, typing

3310
02:14:25,280 --> 02:14:26,880
something into their computer and giving

3311
02:14:26,880 --> 02:14:29,599
you an answer five minutes later. Uh,

3312
02:14:29,599 --> 02:14:31,440
that may may require more research than

3313
02:14:31,440 --> 02:14:33,199
that. So, it has to go to another

3314
02:14:33,199 --> 02:14:36,560
hearing. Uh, but again, making a

3315
02:14:36,560 --> 02:14:40,000
decision without all of the

3316
02:14:40,000 --> 02:14:41,599
questions answered or the evidence

3317
02:14:41,599 --> 02:14:43,119
clarified

3318
02:14:43,119 --> 02:14:46,159
>> should be avoided. You want to get,

3319
02:14:46,159 --> 02:14:47,679
>> you know, ideally the commission wants

3320
02:14:47,679 --> 02:14:50,159
to make a decision one way or the other

3321
02:14:50,159 --> 02:14:52,159
>> based upon the evidence compared against

3322
02:14:52,159 --> 02:14:58,390
the criteria.

3323
02:14:58,400 --> 02:15:02,000
Further questions if Go ahead Patrick

3324
02:15:02,000 --> 02:15:05,920
can make one addition. My letter

3325
02:15:05,920 --> 02:15:09,840
specifically referred not to

3326
02:15:09,840 --> 02:15:11,840
but my experience with the environment

3327
02:15:11,840 --> 02:15:14,960
planning commission was a meeting

3328
02:15:14,960 --> 02:15:18,079
between the commission and staff the

3329
02:15:18,079 --> 02:15:22,069
week before

3330
02:15:22,079 --> 02:15:23,520
where

3331
02:15:23,520 --> 02:15:26,560
The the issues that were brought up were

3332
02:15:26,560 --> 02:15:32,310
discussed between staff and

3333
02:15:32,320 --> 02:15:35,920
the commission

3334
02:15:35,920 --> 02:15:38,079
reviewed any questions that they had

3335
02:15:38,079 --> 02:15:40,320
regarding the ordinance

3336
02:15:40,320 --> 02:15:41,920
questions.

3337
02:15:41,920 --> 02:15:43,760
It was just kind of a clarification

3338
02:15:43,760 --> 02:15:46,159
where the commission made no decisions.

3339
02:15:46,159 --> 02:15:48,480
It was, as I recall, was a public

3340
02:15:48,480 --> 02:15:49,679
meeting.

3341
02:15:49,679 --> 02:15:53,669
>> Mr. Chair,

3342
02:15:53,679 --> 02:15:56,239
» I apologize. This is treading back into

3343
02:15:56,239 --> 02:15:58,000
territory that hasn't been appropriately

3344
02:15:58,000 --> 02:16:00,079
noticed. We're outside of the public

3345
02:16:00,079 --> 02:16:02,960
comment period. I I hate to do this, but

3346
02:16:02,960 --> 02:16:04,000
I just don't think that it's appropriate

3347
02:16:04,000 --> 02:16:05,920
to be addressing members of the public

3348
02:16:05,920 --> 02:16:07,599
at this time.

3349
02:16:07,599 --> 02:16:11,199
So [snorts] if we decide to further

3350
02:16:11,199 --> 02:16:13,360
pursue this, you as a member of the

3351
02:16:13,360 --> 02:16:17,760
public, we'd want to hear more. Okay. So

3352
02:16:17,760 --> 02:16:20,639
should we thank our uh presenter, Mr.

3353
02:16:20,639 --> 02:16:22,079
Williams?

3354
02:16:22,079 --> 02:16:26,310
>> And uh

3355
02:16:26,320 --> 02:16:28,560
that was terrific. Thank you.

3356
02:16:28,560 --> 02:16:32,559
>> Okay. Uh let's continue with our agenda.

3357
02:16:32,559 --> 02:16:36,639
Um and next item of course is the uh

3358
02:16:36,639 --> 02:16:38,880
election of officers. I want to point

3359
02:16:38,880 --> 02:16:42,800
out that uh there may be

3360
02:16:42,800 --> 02:16:45,840
something that the secretary has to do

3361
02:16:45,840 --> 02:16:48,639
and the secretary is no longer with us.

3362
02:16:48,639 --> 02:16:51,679
Um so

3363
02:16:51,679 --> 02:16:54,880
um I was able to chair because I'm here

3364
02:16:54,880 --> 02:16:58,399
as chair and Mary is vice chair. But I'd

3365
02:16:58,399 --> 02:17:00,880
like to open up the meeting for

3366
02:17:00,880 --> 02:17:05,200
nominations for uh chair

3367
02:17:05,200 --> 02:17:07,920
and then I'll open it up for vice chair

3368
02:17:07,920 --> 02:17:10,559
and for secretary.

3369
02:17:10,559 --> 02:17:13,679
>> I'd like to nominate Jerry Stern Sturmer

3370
02:17:13,679 --> 02:17:15,200
for chair.

3371
02:17:15,200 --> 02:17:18,319
>> I would.

3372
02:17:18,319 --> 02:17:20,240
>> All right.

3373
02:17:20,240 --> 02:17:24,240
Are there been a nomination and second?

3374
02:17:24,240 --> 02:17:30,150
Is there um another nomination?

3375
02:17:30,160 --> 02:17:33,200
» If not,

3376
02:17:33,200 --> 02:17:36,479
we'll call for the vote.

3377
02:17:36,479 --> 02:17:39,519
>> Okay, let me make sure. Uh whoops. Uh

3378
02:17:39,519 --> 02:17:41,200
nomination was made by Commissioner

3379
02:17:41,200 --> 02:17:42,800
Source and seconded by Commissioner

3380
02:17:42,800 --> 02:17:45,200
Harrington. Correct. Okay. For the vote

3381
02:17:45,200 --> 02:17:48,800
for Jerry Sturmer as chair, Solom Ward,

3382
02:17:48,800 --> 02:17:49,280
>> I.

3383
02:17:49,280 --> 02:17:50,479
>> Mike Source,

3384
02:17:50,479 --> 02:17:50,960
>> I.

3385
02:17:50,960 --> 02:17:52,240
>> Edgar BS,

3386
02:17:52,240 --> 02:17:53,679
>> I. Jody Harrington.

3387
02:17:53,679 --> 02:17:54,160
>> Hi.

3388
02:17:54,160 --> 02:17:55,120
>> Mary Chappelle.

3389
02:17:55,120 --> 02:17:55,439
>> Hi.

3390
02:17:55,439 --> 02:17:57,439
>> And Jerry, I guess you get to vote, too.

3391
02:17:57,439 --> 02:17:58,800
>> Okay. [laughter]

3392
02:17:58,800 --> 02:18:01,519
>> So, thank you for uh your your

3393
02:18:01,519 --> 02:18:04,719
confidence. Uh I very much appreciate it

3394
02:18:04,719 --> 02:18:08,960
and will endeavor to do a good job. Uh

3395
02:18:08,960 --> 02:18:12,870
and um

3396
02:18:12,880 --> 02:18:14,960
I think that

3397
02:18:14,960 --> 02:18:18,160
we've heard a lot tonight about

3398
02:18:18,160 --> 02:18:21,920
who we serve and who we're about. and

3399
02:18:21,920 --> 02:18:24,319
that's the members of of this community

3400
02:18:24,319 --> 02:18:26,719
and that's what I always have in mind

3401
02:18:26,719 --> 02:18:29,359
and I hope I'll be able to continue that

3402
02:18:29,359 --> 02:18:32,719
working with you. Let me now open the uh

3403
02:18:32,719 --> 02:18:36,399
floor for nominations for vice vice

3404
02:18:36,399 --> 02:18:38,319
chair.

3405
02:18:38,319 --> 02:18:42,160
>> I would nominate Mary Chappelle.

3406
02:18:42,160 --> 02:18:43,840
>> Do we have a second?

3407
02:18:43,840 --> 02:18:44,960
>> Okay.

3408
02:18:44,960 --> 02:18:46,880
>> I'm sorry. Who seconded?

3409
02:18:46,880 --> 02:18:50,230
>> Okay.

3410
02:18:50,240 --> 02:18:53,840
Uh okay. Are there further nominations?

3411
02:18:53,840 --> 02:18:55,760
Seeing none.

3412
02:18:55,760 --> 02:18:58,479
>> Okay. For the vote um for Mary Chappelle

3413
02:18:58,479 --> 02:19:00,719
as vice chair. Salomay Ward

3414
02:19:00,719 --> 02:19:01,200
>> I.

3415
02:19:01,200 --> 02:19:02,160
>> Mike Source

3416
02:19:02,160 --> 02:19:02,559
>> I.

3417
02:19:02,559 --> 02:19:03,599
>> Edgar BS

3418
02:19:03,599 --> 02:19:03,920
>> I.

3419
02:19:03,920 --> 02:19:04,960
>> Jody Harrington

3420
02:19:04,960 --> 02:19:05,359
>> I.

3421
02:19:05,359 --> 02:19:06,639
>> Mary Chappelle.

3422
02:19:06,639 --> 02:19:07,599
>> Hi.

3423
02:19:07,599 --> 02:19:08,800
>> And Jerry [laughter] Sturmer.

3424
02:19:08,800 --> 02:19:10,639
>> I.

3425
02:19:10,639 --> 02:19:14,639
>> All right. Now we would like to nominate

3426
02:19:14,639 --> 02:19:19,990
uh someone for secretary.

3427
02:19:20,000 --> 02:19:22,240
Uh, we have a nomination for Jodie

3428
02:19:22,240 --> 02:19:23,359
Harington.

3429
02:19:23,359 --> 02:19:24,719
>> I'll second.

3430
02:19:24,719 --> 02:19:28,960
>> Second by Commissioner Shores. Um, do we

3431
02:19:28,960 --> 02:19:31,760
have any other nominations?

3432
02:19:31,760 --> 02:19:33,679
Seeing none.

3433
02:19:33,679 --> 02:19:36,080
>> Um, before I call a vote, I'll I'll let

3434
02:19:36,080 --> 02:19:37,760
you know in in the rules for transaction

3435
02:19:37,760 --> 02:19:40,080
of business, it seems to imply that the

3436
02:19:40,080 --> 02:19:41,920
secretary has to do the minutes. That's

3437
02:19:41,920 --> 02:19:44,080
incorrect. We do those. Um, but you will

3438
02:19:44,080 --> 02:19:46,319
sign off on plats that get approved, you

3439
02:19:46,319 --> 02:19:49,680
and the chair. So for the vote for Jodie

3440
02:19:49,680 --> 02:19:53,040
Harrington as the secretary, Salame Ward

3441
02:19:53,040 --> 02:19:53,600
>> I.

3442
02:19:53,600 --> 02:19:54,560
>> Mike Source

3443
02:19:54,560 --> 02:19:54,880
>> I.

3444
02:19:54,880 --> 02:19:56,160
>> Edgar BS

3445
02:19:56,160 --> 02:19:56,479
>> I.

3446
02:19:56,479 --> 02:19:57,760
>> Jodie Harrington.

3447
02:19:57,760 --> 02:19:58,720
>> Can I abain?

3448
02:19:58,720 --> 02:20:00,080
>> Of course.

3449
02:20:00,080 --> 02:20:01,040
>> Mary Chappelle

3450
02:20:01,040 --> 02:20:01,439
>> I.

3451
02:20:01,439 --> 02:20:02,640
>> And Jerry Sturmer

3452
02:20:02,640 --> 02:20:04,240
>> I.

3453
02:20:04,240 --> 02:20:08,399
Okay. Thank you for being officers.

3454
02:20:08,399 --> 02:20:12,319
And uh let us go to the planning and

3455
02:20:12,319 --> 02:20:14,560
zoning report which we have a written

3456
02:20:14,560 --> 02:20:17,040
version of but you may want to highlight

3457
02:20:17,040 --> 02:20:20,399
some things and add things if you like.

3458
02:20:20,399 --> 02:20:22,560
>> Thank you Mr. Chair. Yeah, I did have

3459
02:20:22,560 --> 02:20:24,720
something here to add which I'll pull

3460
02:20:24,720 --> 02:20:26,720
out so I don't forget. So for the

3461
02:20:26,720 --> 02:20:28,479
benefit of the new commissioners, there

3462
02:20:28,479 --> 02:20:30,399
are certain types of home occupations

3463
02:20:30,399 --> 02:20:32,800
that I'm allowed to approve. Typically,

3464
02:20:32,800 --> 02:20:34,800
that's something where you've got a a

3465
02:20:34,800 --> 02:20:37,920
person um sitting at a computer in their

3466
02:20:37,920 --> 02:20:40,080
home or they're painting or they're

3467
02:20:40,080 --> 02:20:43,680
doing something low impact and have rare

3468
02:20:43,680 --> 02:20:47,120
to no client visits. So, I will always

3469
02:20:47,120 --> 02:20:48,720
list the ones that happened in the

3470
02:20:48,720 --> 02:20:50,479
previous month. Sometimes we have four,

3471
02:20:50,479 --> 02:20:52,399
sometimes we have one. So, I'll always

3472
02:20:52,399 --> 02:20:55,200
list those. Um, and then I usually just

3473
02:20:55,200 --> 02:20:56,880
give you I noticed when I started

3474
02:20:56,880 --> 02:20:58,479
working here that someone was saying I

3475
02:20:58,479 --> 02:21:01,760
you know I got,242 phone calls and 800

3476
02:21:01,760 --> 02:21:03,200
people walked in. I'm like no we're not

3477
02:21:03,200 --> 02:21:05,920
doing that. So I try to just pick out

3478
02:21:05,920 --> 02:21:07,920
some of the highlights of the previous

3479
02:21:07,920 --> 02:21:10,880
month of things that I've worked on. Um,

3480
02:21:10,880 --> 02:21:12,640
one big thing that I personally do, I'm

3481
02:21:12,640 --> 02:21:14,560
the flood plane manager also for the

3482
02:21:14,560 --> 02:21:17,520
village. So drainage issues, storm water

3483
02:21:17,520 --> 02:21:20,080
issues are kind of my specialty. So um,

3484
02:21:20,080 --> 02:21:22,319
in this case I I met with Scaffa.

3485
02:21:22,319 --> 02:21:24,720
There's some some projects within the

3486
02:21:24,720 --> 02:21:27,040
village. This the Scaffa owns some land

3487
02:21:27,040 --> 02:21:28,560
within the village where they operate

3488
02:21:28,560 --> 02:21:31,200
retention ponds. And so we we

3489
02:21:31,200 --> 02:21:33,680
collaborate with public works mainly um

3490
02:21:33,680 --> 02:21:36,640
but but all of us on you know how how to

3491
02:21:36,640 --> 02:21:39,680
help them help us with our um our

3492
02:21:39,680 --> 02:21:41,600
drainage problem. We do not have storm

3493
02:21:41,600 --> 02:21:43,840
sewers in the village. So you'll you'll

3494
02:21:43,840 --> 02:21:45,520
see things like that occasionally.

3495
02:21:45,520 --> 02:21:47,439
There's a clean and lean property if you

3496
02:21:47,439 --> 02:21:50,960
weren't aware. It's 744 Old Church. I

3497
02:21:50,960 --> 02:21:53,600
can tell you that as of today, uh

3498
02:21:53,600 --> 02:21:55,280
actually maybe yesterday afternoon, I

3499
02:21:55,280 --> 02:21:57,280
did uh the code enforcement officer did

3500
02:21:57,280 --> 02:22:00,080
get um a quote that I think we're going

3501
02:22:00,080 --> 02:22:01,359
to go with. So, we're going to we're

3502
02:22:01,359 --> 02:22:03,040
going to move forward on that hopefully

3503
02:22:03,040 --> 02:22:05,920
very soon. Um there's a draft noise

3504
02:22:05,920 --> 02:22:07,200
ordinance that many of you probably

3505
02:22:07,200 --> 02:22:10,240
already know about. Um,

3506
02:22:10,240 --> 02:22:11,600
you know, I I just kind of gave you the

3507
02:22:11,600 --> 02:22:12,880
highlights, but the thing that I wanted

3508
02:22:12,880 --> 02:22:15,120
to mention and some of the current

3509
02:22:15,120 --> 02:22:16,640
commissioners,

3510
02:22:16,640 --> 02:22:19,439
um, there was there were questions about

3511
02:22:19,439 --> 02:22:22,000
traffic studies actually and I became

3512
02:22:22,000 --> 02:22:24,880
aware that NMD dot,

3513
02:22:24,880 --> 02:22:26,800
it's not really a traffic study per se,

3514
02:22:26,800 --> 02:22:28,880
it's a speeding study that they're doing

3515
02:22:28,880 --> 02:22:31,520
right now along Carales Road. They're

3516
02:22:31,520 --> 02:22:34,800
collecting data. Um they were hoping to

3517
02:22:34,800 --> 02:22:37,600
have a draft report by early July, but

3518
02:22:37,600 --> 02:22:39,359
we did not have a meeting with him, so

3519
02:22:39,359 --> 02:22:42,160
it hasn't been presented yet. The final

3520
02:22:42,160 --> 02:22:45,439
submitt should be later on this summer,

3521
02:22:45,439 --> 02:22:47,840
early fall. So they're looking at is

3522
02:22:47,840 --> 02:22:49,600
speeding a problem on Corales Road or

3523
02:22:49,600 --> 02:22:52,640
not? They're also, interestingly enough,

3524
02:22:52,640 --> 02:22:55,280
um, looking at what what they're calling

3525
02:22:55,280 --> 02:22:58,560
a four-way stop control analysis on

3526
02:22:58,560 --> 02:23:01,600
Corales Road for four intersections,

3527
02:23:01,600 --> 02:23:03,920
which would be Cabazone Road, Meadowark

3528
02:23:03,920 --> 02:23:08,000
Lane, Lantrada, and Sage Brush. So, in

3529
02:23:08,000 --> 02:23:09,680
theory, in the future, there could be

3530
02:23:09,680 --> 02:23:12,080
four four-way stops on Carales Road. So,

3531
02:23:12,080 --> 02:23:14,080
that's something they're looking at. Um,

3532
02:23:14,080 --> 02:23:15,840
and so, unless you have any questions of

3533
02:23:15,840 --> 02:23:18,720
me, that's that's my report for tonight.

3534
02:23:18,720 --> 02:23:22,319
I I have a couple questions. Okay. The

3535
02:23:22,319 --> 02:23:25,439
Scaffa issues, what ponds are they

3536
02:23:25,439 --> 02:23:27,359
concerned about? Can we get a little

3537
02:23:27,359 --> 02:23:28,479
more detail on those?

3538
02:23:28,479 --> 02:23:30,479
>> Yeah, one of the ones we talked about is

3539
02:23:30,479 --> 02:23:33,200
at the bottom of

3540
02:23:33,200 --> 02:23:37,680
I want to say Coronado Road. Um I

3541
02:23:37,680 --> 02:23:39,040
believe it's at the bottom of Coronado

3542
02:23:39,040 --> 02:23:40,960
Road. There's a big one at the at the

3543
02:23:40,960 --> 02:23:42,160
bottom of Po de

3544
02:23:42,160 --> 02:23:43,840
>> Corales.

3545
02:23:43,840 --> 02:23:46,080
>> And you know, their concern for the

3546
02:23:46,080 --> 02:23:47,920
village is we don't have storm sewers.

3547
02:23:47,920 --> 02:23:51,040
So, my department constantly is asking

3548
02:23:51,040 --> 02:23:52,960
for grading and drainage plans,

3549
02:23:52,960 --> 02:23:54,479
engineered grading and drainage plans.

3550
02:23:54,479 --> 02:23:56,560
When folks put in new infrastructure,

3551
02:23:56,560 --> 02:23:58,160
they have to have a pond on their

3552
02:23:58,160 --> 02:24:01,840
property. And initially, all is well. We

3553
02:24:01,840 --> 02:24:03,920
have a a grading and drainage plan. At

3554
02:24:03,920 --> 02:24:05,840
that point, we issue a building permit.

3555
02:24:05,840 --> 02:24:08,399
We ask for a certified asbuilt from

3556
02:24:08,399 --> 02:24:10,160
their engineer that this thing was

3557
02:24:10,160 --> 02:24:12,640
constructed as designed. And that's

3558
02:24:12,640 --> 02:24:14,880
wonderful. But what about five years

3559
02:24:14,880 --> 02:24:17,600
from now when the thing is silted in or

3560
02:24:17,600 --> 02:24:19,120
someone else buys the property and says,

3561
02:24:19,120 --> 02:24:20,560
"Well, why there's a hole there? I'm

3562
02:24:20,560 --> 02:24:22,960
going to fill that in." So, the ongoing

3563
02:24:22,960 --> 02:24:25,600
maintenance of the retention ponds was

3564
02:24:25,600 --> 02:24:29,120
something we talked about. Um, and and

3565
02:24:29,120 --> 02:24:31,359
there are some some grants and some

3566
02:24:31,359 --> 02:24:34,399
other agencies that we're going to reach

3567
02:24:34,399 --> 02:24:37,120
out to um for maybe educational

3568
02:24:37,120 --> 02:24:39,680
materials because we are kind of unique.

3569
02:24:39,680 --> 02:24:41,280
you know, other other communities do

3570
02:24:41,280 --> 02:24:44,080
have storm sewers and we don't and how

3571
02:24:44,080 --> 02:24:45,920
do we keep these retention ponds going

3572
02:24:45,920 --> 02:24:49,280
because ultimately all of that flow ends

3573
02:24:49,280 --> 02:24:51,439
up in the Scaffa pond or the village

3574
02:24:51,439 --> 02:24:53,920
owned pond which wasn't designed

3575
02:24:53,920 --> 02:24:54,319
>> exactly

3576
02:24:54,319 --> 02:24:57,680
>> for it. So it's it's it's an an ongoing

3577
02:24:57,680 --> 02:24:58,160
issue.

3578
02:24:58,160 --> 02:25:01,120
>> So the the concern are are we able to

3579
02:25:01,120 --> 02:25:04,000
meet the 100red-year event at this

3580
02:25:04,000 --> 02:25:04,399
point?

3581
02:25:04,399 --> 02:25:07,359
>> The short answer is yes. Um

3582
02:25:07,359 --> 02:25:08,080
>> maybe

3583
02:25:08,080 --> 02:25:11,200
>> but we have historic flows. So

3584
02:25:11,200 --> 02:25:13,040
>> correct. I understand historic flows.

3585
02:25:13,040 --> 02:25:14,800
>> There's no statutory or ordinance

3586
02:25:14,800 --> 02:25:16,640
requirement that anyone do anything with

3587
02:25:16,640 --> 02:25:18,160
historic flows and that's a problem.

3588
02:25:18,160 --> 02:25:22,240
>> Yeah. Now redirection of historic flows.

3589
02:25:22,240 --> 02:25:25,520
Um we had talked about that and having

3590
02:25:25,520 --> 02:25:29,600
meetings on redirection and

3591
02:25:29,600 --> 02:25:32,479
is that going to happen anytime soon?

3592
02:25:32,479 --> 02:25:34,720
All I can tell you from my standpoint is

3593
02:25:34,720 --> 02:25:37,520
I recently got three easements on

3594
02:25:37,520 --> 02:25:41,040
private properties and

3595
02:25:41,040 --> 02:25:43,520
the property owners are allowing us to

3596
02:25:43,520 --> 02:25:45,200
go in and do work and we're going to be

3597
02:25:45,200 --> 02:25:47,920
addressing at least in those areas all

3598
02:25:47,920 --> 02:25:50,880
of the flows whether it's historic or or

3599
02:25:50,880 --> 02:25:54,479
from road or whatever. It's almost I

3600
02:25:54,479 --> 02:25:56,720
mean think of the saly basin project

3601
02:25:56,720 --> 02:25:59,120
which was huge and there's

3602
02:25:59,120 --> 02:26:01,520
>> you you it's it's you almost have to

3603
02:26:01,520 --> 02:26:04,160
look at a given area and say what can we

3604
02:26:04,160 --> 02:26:05,680
do in this given area what is the

3605
02:26:05,680 --> 02:26:09,120
watershed for this particular pond and

3606
02:26:09,120 --> 02:26:10,479
then work backwards.

3607
02:26:10,479 --> 02:26:12,080
>> Correct. There was a couple roads in the

3608
02:26:12,080 --> 02:26:14,720
village that Scaffa is supposed to

3609
02:26:14,720 --> 02:26:17,600
review and meet with the property

3610
02:26:17,600 --> 02:26:21,040
owners. Is that coming up anytime soon?

3611
02:26:21,040 --> 02:26:23,040
I I can't speak to any of their

3612
02:26:23,040 --> 02:26:25,520
meetings, but I know that we did bring

3613
02:26:25,520 --> 02:26:29,040
up flows coming down Coronado when when

3614
02:26:29,040 --> 02:26:30,720
I met with them last time.

3615
02:26:30,720 --> 02:26:31,280
>> Right.

3616
02:26:31,280 --> 02:26:33,920
>> So, we're we my office is concentrating

3617
02:26:33,920 --> 02:26:36,800
on the folks on Coronado Road and Mariam

3618
02:26:36,800 --> 02:26:39,200
Acres, which also flows into it and

3619
02:26:39,200 --> 02:26:42,240
sending a letter to all of them and and

3620
02:26:42,240 --> 02:26:44,319
trying to gently coax them into looking

3621
02:26:44,319 --> 02:26:46,640
at their own properties and how they

3622
02:26:46,640 --> 02:26:48,399
might be contributing to a problem.

3623
02:26:48,399 --> 02:26:52,240
>> Yeah. So regrading, repaving of village

3624
02:26:52,240 --> 02:26:54,560
owned properties, is that something that

3625
02:26:54,560 --> 02:26:57,120
the village is looking at carefully so

3626
02:26:57,120 --> 02:26:58,399
they don't overload?

3627
02:26:58,399 --> 02:26:59,760
>> Oh, absolutely.

3628
02:26:59,760 --> 02:27:00,319
>> Absolutely.

3629
02:27:00,319 --> 02:27:01,760
>> Okay. I think that's part of what the

3630
02:27:01,760 --> 02:27:03,680
this upcoming meeting is supposed to be

3631
02:27:03,680 --> 02:27:07,120
about. Uh do we have any idea when

3632
02:27:07,120 --> 02:27:08,000
that's going to be set?

3633
02:27:08,000 --> 02:27:09,280
>> I can find out for you.

3634
02:27:09,280 --> 02:27:13,590
>> Thank you.

3635
02:27:13,600 --> 02:27:15,040
Father questions.

3636
02:27:15,040 --> 02:27:17,280
>> I had a question about what the quote

3637
02:27:17,280 --> 02:27:19,280
was to do the

3638
02:27:19,280 --> 02:27:23,270
Oh yeah.

3639
02:27:23,280 --> 02:27:25,120
» Well, we got a quote from a company that

3640
02:27:25,120 --> 02:27:27,680
will come in and remediate the property,

3641
02:27:27,680 --> 02:27:30,080
but we don't have a quote yet from

3642
02:27:30,080 --> 02:27:34,070
Sandival County Sheriff's

3643
02:27:34,080 --> 02:27:36,399
» to watch over. So, I don't have a full

3644
02:27:36,399 --> 02:27:37,040
quote yet,

3645
02:27:37,040 --> 02:27:38,479
>> but what is it for the

3646
02:27:38,479 --> 02:27:40,800
>> um it was less than $20,000, which

3647
02:27:40,800 --> 02:27:42,640
shocked me because I But they have, you

3648
02:27:42,640 --> 02:27:44,319
know, they have caveats in there. If

3649
02:27:44,319 --> 02:27:45,760
they get in there and they find out that

3650
02:27:45,760 --> 02:27:48,160
some of these materials are asbestous or

3651
02:27:48,160 --> 02:27:50,720
hazardous, that's that quote's going to

3652
02:27:50,720 --> 02:27:51,280
change.

3653
02:27:51,280 --> 02:27:53,680
>> Yeah.

3654
02:27:53,680 --> 02:27:57,600
>> One more question. Um Rachel Lane, can

3655
02:27:57,600 --> 02:27:59,359
you give us give us some updates on

3656
02:27:59,359 --> 02:28:00,000
that?

3657
02:28:00,000 --> 02:28:02,640
>> Oh, that uh that was one of the two

3658
02:28:02,640 --> 02:28:06,160
roads where I had gotten um a total of

3659
02:28:06,160 --> 02:28:08,479
three easements. One of them is where

3660
02:28:08,479 --> 02:28:11,520
Rachel connects to Via Vista. Mhm.

3661
02:28:11,520 --> 02:28:13,760
>> Um that property owner actually gave us

3662
02:28:13,760 --> 02:28:16,160
two little chunks to work on and then

3663
02:28:16,160 --> 02:28:18,160
the the property Rachel Lane is

3664
02:28:18,160 --> 02:28:22,319
essentially someone's driveway. It's a private driveway. Um and they

3665
02:28:22,319 --> 02:28:24,640
gave us another big chunk. So you put it

3666
02:28:24,640 --> 02:28:26,720
all together. It's going to be a unified

3667
02:28:26,720 --> 02:28:27,040
design.

3668
02:28:27,040 --> 02:28:29,359
>> Who owns these properties then or

3669
02:28:29,359 --> 02:28:34,550
>> two property owners, three easements?

3670
02:28:34,560 --> 02:28:36,000
They're owned by the village or owned by

3671
02:28:36,000 --> 02:28:36,319
the

3672
02:28:36,319 --> 02:28:39,359
>> the the easement will be still owned by

3673
02:28:39,359 --> 02:28:40,960
the property owner, but we will have

3674
02:28:40,960 --> 02:28:42,399
responsibility for

3675
02:28:42,399 --> 02:28:44,080
>> Okay. Does that violate the

3676
02:28:44,080 --> 02:28:45,680
anti-donation at all?

3677
02:28:45,680 --> 02:28:46,240
>> No.

3678
02:28:46,240 --> 02:28:48,160
>> Okay.

3679
02:28:48,160 --> 02:28:50,399
I know the area because I was on P&Z

3680
02:28:50,399 --> 02:28:52,399
when that subdivision was done.

3681
02:28:52,399 --> 02:28:54,240
>> There's quite the ao up there on the

3682
02:28:54,240 --> 02:28:54,960
other side.

3683
02:28:54,960 --> 02:28:56,880
>> Historic flows that run through there.

3684
02:28:56,880 --> 02:28:59,920
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's bad.

3685
02:28:59,920 --> 02:29:02,319
>> Okay. Now it's time for the

3686
02:29:02,319 --> 02:29:04,319
commissioner's forum.

3687
02:29:04,319 --> 02:29:06,880
>> It's also time to close the meeting at

3688
02:29:06,880 --> 02:29:08,640
9:00.

3689
02:29:08,640 --> 02:29:10,240
Um,

3690
02:29:10,240 --> 02:29:12,720
shall we take a pass on the forum?

3691
02:29:12,720 --> 02:29:14,319
>> Yes, I'm okay with that.

3692
02:29:14,319 --> 02:29:17,920
>> Okay. And then I will uh entertain a

3693
02:29:17,920 --> 02:29:22,319
motion to adjurnn.

3694
02:29:22,319 --> 02:29:23,840
>> I move to adjurnn.

3695
02:29:23,840 --> 02:29:24,240
>> Okay.

3696
02:29:24,240 --> 02:29:26,960
>> I'll second that. And uh we won't even

3697
02:29:26,960 --> 02:29:30,240
take a vote because it's I I declare it

3698
02:29:30,240 --> 02:29:35,680
unanimous meeting ended and uh