There we go. Do I need to start over for
the tape?
Anyway, um
good afternoon everybody.
Uh, this is a regular meeting of the
Princeton Historic Preservation
Commission being held on August 25th at
5:00 PM in the main building in the main
meeting room of the of the Princeton
Municipal Building at 400 Witherspoon
Street. Pursuant to section 13 of the
open public meetings act, adequate
notice and time of in place of this
meeting has been noticed by transmitting
a copy of the agenda to the Princeton
packet town topics times of Trenton and
by filing a copy with the clerk of
Princeton, posting on the municipal
website in the center
and posting on the official bulletin
board at the Princeton Municipal Complex
here at 400 Witherspoon Great.
Sarah, could we please take the role?
» Miss Satderfield is joining from Zoom.
Can I get a here,
>> here, here, here, here, here, here.
>> Adam will fix that echo, but thank you.
[snorts]
>> Uh, Mr. Shatskin is absent.
» Miss Howard
>> here. Miss Capazolei
here. Miss Freriedman is absent. Miss
Croll is absent. Miss Kosnikova is
absent. Chair Sher
>> here.
>> We have quorum.
>> Thank you very much.
So we usually start our meeting with um
any announcements.
>> The design guidelines uh public comment
period ended yesterday. I am reviewing
them, compiling them and we should get
any major updates to the uh guidelines
review committee and our consultant for
any changes shortly and there will be a
presentation to council on September
14th for the
>> very interesting. Do you have um a sense
of how many people submitted comments?
» We definitely had more sort of
conversations at the public presentation
than submitted them in writing, I would
say.
>> Right. And for the audience, we you and
I both wrote up the uh
>> Yes.
>> to be in the list of things that will be
considered when you're going over all of
it. And my understanding is what happens
next and Sarah you can correct me if I'm
wrong is that the committee who worked
with the [snorts] consultant on this for
about a year will um be called to
reconvene and to go over the the
comments and to then give feedback to
the consultant about where we go, how we
tie this up and and get the product done
and ready for um final distribution and and use.
Did you something we're going to add or
>> I Yes, I I'm going to summarize the
comments and send them out to everybody
to see if we need to meet again. If
there's any major outstanding items we
need to discuss and revise um or if
there are things we have identified that
can be
>> discussed for future projects
>> and maybe something we don't need to
revise now.
And that's it's kind of up to us as the committee.
>> Very good.
All right. Um, normally we review the minutes next. Um,
>> has everyone had a chance to look at
them? And is there any input or comment?
>> Um, I think the minutes look fine and
I'll make a motion to approve. Second.
>> I second.
Okay, Sarah, when you're ready,
>> roll call. Uh,
>> Miss Soldderfield,
>> yes.
>> Miss Howard?
>> Yes.
>> Miss Capazolei?
>> Yes.
>> Chair Sher?
>> Yes.
>> Minutes have passed.
>> Was Miss Satderfield at the last
meeting?
>> She read them.
>> Okay, I read them.
>> Awesome. Thanks.
» Okay.
So, we will move to the applications.
Um, first off is uh 61 Lee Avenue. If
you want to come up and sit at the
table,
» joining us is our liaison. Um, Leighton
Nulan.
Okay. You want to get them established?
>> Hey, will you both be testifying or
discussing the application?
>> Okay. So, I'm just
>> I'm sorry.
» Press the button.
>> Okay. Um All right. Well, I can swear
you both in and if she um wants to
testify, then I can swear her in as
well. So, Um,
>> and will Jiva be giving testimony or is
it just you?
>> Um, yes. Say yes.
>> Yes. So, can you wait a second?
>> Yeah.
>> Thank you.
For those of you in the audience, we are
excited that our um
>> later down in the agenda, you'll see
that we're going to get a um courtesy
review from the people associated with
the Princeton Battlefield Park on the
progress of what's being done there. And
we hope that people will um stick around
if they can.
Yes,
this picture.
Can you hear me? No,
>> tell just tell Cecilia that I can't come
today. Don't tell her I'm at a meeting
and tell her that I do want to be partly
want to participate and I'll be at the
next meeting.
» Yeah,
» this
All
right. So, I'm just
I can swear you all in at this time, you
know, in case you guys testify and for
Max as well. So, if you could all please
raise your right hands, I can do it
simultaneously. Um, do you swear that
the testimony you're about to give shall
be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth to help you God? I
do.
>> I do.
>> Okay. So, then I guess we'll have you
each say your names as as you speak. So,
>> Okay.
>> Good afternoon or good evening, early
evening. I'm Max Hayden. I'm the
architect for the applicant. Um, Jiva
and Mita live at 61 Lee Avenue in the
Witherspoon Jackson neighborhood. Um,
they have a 1910 era house. It's uh one
of several in a cluster nearby. Uh we
they would like to extend their porch to
the right hand side of the house,
wrapping it back to the L to gain much
needed space. They have the most
adorable little set of twins I ever saw
and they have less adorable teenagers.
And so there are six people living in a
relatively modest house. And the porch
addition will have an extension of the
front porch, but it will also include a
much needed mudroom and bathroom for the
first floor. Um, at the rear of the
house, we are uh extending a porch over
an existing set of stairs. The stairs
will actually be replaced, but they lead
from the kitchen to the garden. and uh
we really want to cover them over to
protect them and replace the 1950s era
concrete steps with something more
sympathetic to the architecture of the
house. So, we're really trying to make
it look as if this is how the house was
built. Uh we're also asking for um
permission to erect a fence to separate
the parking, the existing parking from
um the garden. They're avid gardeners.
They have some chickens. They really
love hanging out in their yard. They
have an they have a double lot and
they'd like to um you know have a little
bit of privacy. Um they are going to
match all the existing finishes. The
color of the trim will stay the same.
The color of the windows will stay the
same. Uh we are
>> with with one Oh, go ahead.
>> With with one exception. So Oh, Jiva
Petran, I'm one of the owners. Um the
prior owners painted some of the windows
pink and some maybe five different
shades of green. So our proposal
includes um matching the what seems the
most historical part which was the
sophet was a sages green. Um, and so our
proposal includes making all the windows
the same shade
>> and uh we might be changing the stuckco
color.
>> Um, and the stucco is in very poor shape
and we need to patch it in multiple
areas. So, the plan is to um the most
original stucco color was a a very
bright coral pink and then it's gone
through multiple iterations of various
paints all over it. And so, we would
propose to bring it to like a beigish
lightish pink like a sandstone color
like a white off-white I don't know how
to describe that
just not the bright coral that it was.
We also the applicant also is required
to get a variance because the porch
exceeds the prevailing setback and the
zoning code takes 500 ft along one side
which is kind of funny I will call it
because the cluster of houses that this
house is similar to all have the same
porch and the same setback to the
street. So, it's a little ownorous on
the owner, but that's the next step for
us. So, we're hoping that the historic
commission will deem this an appropriate
application and uh would welcome any
questions you might have.
» Uh I'll [music]
briefly go through the the main points.
Um, as the applicants and Max have said,
the applicants have filed an application
for historic preservation plan review as
well as an application toward the zoning
board of adjustment for severances
related to the restoration and extension
of the existing front porch, the
construction of a one-story addition on
the east side elevation of the dwelling,
as well as landscape and hardscape
changes to 61 Lee Avenue. Uh, the site
is identified as 6904, lots 23 and 24 on
the Princeton tax map. It is in
Princeton historic overlay in
Witherspoon Jackson historic district as
a type two district which is defined per
T10B2 I is subject to preservation plan
review for any changes visible from the
public right ofway. Uh 61 Lee Avenue is
a circa 1915 2 and a half story L-shaped
woodframe vernacular building clad and
stucco with some colonial and folk
revival influences based on the historic
sandborn maps. The building largely
retains the same footprint since its
original construction. This includes the
full width front porch, the twotory L on
the east side elevation as well as the
one-story shed roof for your edition.
The proposed scope of work includes the
restoration of the existing front porch
and kind that is not that's a blank
page.
>> [snorts]
>> uh the restoration of the existing
masonry the restoration of the existing
masonry stoop with a wood stoop and
railing as well as the extension of the
front roof around the east elevation
connecting and closing the east side
elevation and south front elevation of
the main block and L respectively. The
enclosure will eliminate the existing
stoop entrance to the L creating a
one-story addition. The east elevation
of the addition will feature two new
wood windows with custom lentils sills
casing and trim to match the existing
windows. The applicant also proposes to
add a new bluestone walkway to replace
the existing brick walkway, a 6-ft tall
cedar fence to the rear yard, and a shed
roof extension to the existing one-story
shed roof rear edition. There were also
additional landscaping changes proposed
for the rear yard that will not be
visible from the public rightway with
the installation of the new fence. The
proposed scope of work appears to
largely retain the historic fabric and
character defining features at the
property. The proposed one-story
addition on the east elevation of the
front facade will alter the building's
overall massing, but the form will
remain evident. Similarly sized and
placed additions have been made to a
number of dwellings along Lee Avenue,
including 64, 66, and 87 Lee, although
these additions appear to be to have
been construction prior to local
designation of the historic district.
The the additions appear to be
compatible with the existing size,
scale, and proportion massing of the
houses along Lee and within the larger
Weatherspoon Jackson Historic District.
Therefore, the proposed addition at 61
Lee Avenue appears to be consistent with
the existing paradigm of the block and
falls within the vernacular traditions
of the neighborhood. The fence provided
in the concept plans appears to match
existing fencing found throughout the
Weatherspoon Jackson neighbor
Witherspoon Jackson historic district as
a wood fence with the lattice top. In
addition, the blue stone walkway and the
proposed rear rear roof addition appears
to have minimal impact on the building
or the surrounding district. Uh this is
an application for development. So the
HBC is a referral to the zoning board of
adjustment.
As a contributing resource to the
Witherspoon Jackson Historic District,
staff recommends that the commission
consider whether the project as proposed
generally retains the building's
historic integrity, spaces, and spatial
relationships as well as the overall
historic character of the property. In
addition, staff recommends that the
commission consider the following while
conducting their historic preservation
plan review and sub subsequent
recommendation to the zoning board
adjustment. Whether proposed project
meets the secretary of the interior
standards for the treatment of historic
properties. Whether proposed project is
appropriate to and compatible with the
existing structures and landscape of the
Wman Jackson historic district. Whether
the proposed project would adversely
affect the ambiance, character, and
appearance of the district. Whether
proposed project preserves or enhances
the historic or architectural value of
the structure. Whether proposed project
would reversely affect the exterior
architectural features and setting of
the structure as well as its historic
and architectural character. whether the
modifications proposed to the existing
dwelling that are beneficial to comp
contemporary living including the
construction of the new onesto edition
are consistent with the architectural
design and character of the structure
and the larger district. Whether
proposed addition is visually compatible
with the structures and places within
the district. Whether the proposed
addition acts as a backdrop to and does
not visually intrude upon the structures
and places within the district. Whether
the height of the addition is visually
compatible with the structures within
the district. Whether the relationship
of the width and the height of the
district of the addition is visually
compatible with the structures and
places within the district. Whether the
relationship the proposed addition to
the open space between it and joining
structures is visually compatible.
Whether the roof shape of proposed
addition is visually compatible with
structures within the mated setting and
whether the size, massing, and windows
on the proposed addition is visually
compatible. and whether the fencing
proposed is appropriate for the historic
preservation district and the principal
structure on the lot.
Thank you.
If um
unfortunately I can see part of the
drawing up here that you guys can't see
on the screen there. Um I had one
question about it, but I would ask the
commission members if they want to make
some comments before I go.
Um, I will
>> Okay, go ahead.
>> Um, I agree entirely. This seems to be
very consistent with the neighborhood
and that the owners have shown
themselves to be very wonderful stewards
of the property. So, I think it fits in
beautifully with the with the
neighborhood context.
I just needed some clarification on the
fence.
Um,
a picture of the fence.
>> The fencing will be cedar.
Um, there's a lattice on top of it to
break down the scale of it because it is
a 6 foot tall fence.
>> And um,
you know, there is a gate allowing
access from the parking to the rear
yard. It's on the second
>> and it connects to the shed.
>> What is the uh existing fence? I think
it's iron, is it?
>> What is the
>> There's an existing fence there.
>> No, there is no fence. No.
Sorry.
>> So, I don't know if it helps, but to
plan the plan is to in front of the
fence plant a rain garden to capture
some of the the rainwater there. Um, so
the plan is that really there will be a
little bit of plantings there also
hiding the fence from view. I don't know
if that helps explain, but that it won't
be like the first thing you see.
» Surely, do you have any uh comments you
want to add?
>> Yes, I agree with the commission. I
don't agree with extending the porch.
And um the reason that it's pink and
green is probably because it's festive.
uh with the family who was there before.
I agreed to changing it all to a a
green, but um I wanted to stay the way
it is and just do the fixer uppers uh
and not extend the the porch.
Um okay, thank you.
Um my question, and it's going to be a
little bit hard to do without without
graphics. I'm going to ask um
Max if he can kind of with words work
with me. The gable over the entrance
currently,
how does that relate to the gable that I
guess is going to be in about the same
place, but the porch being brought out?
The gable now looks like it's in the
middle of the porch roof and it looks
like it's at a different pitch.
>> No, I mean it's meant The gable's
staying there. Gable's not moving.
>> Oh, that gable and and those precise
angles are staying there. Then it's just
my eyes. Sorry.
>> Yeah. No, we're just truly extending to
the right and it will be an open porch
and then the addition is from the wall
of the house back where it's enclosed.
And you know, the whole thought was to
make it look as if it was at one point
kind of a wraparound porch that Yes,
they then enclosed,
>> which I don't think is out of character
with the rest of the neighborhood.
>> Mhm.
>> And it gives them very much needed
space.
Okay. Then um
then I g I I guess that now that I
understand that that gable is not
changing. It's just that it's it's
position just looks different when you
have extended the
>> it it might be
I may have drawn it not accurately but
truly we're not changing the gable.
>> Okay. I my hope is that we can actually
keep the roof um the moldings are all
rotten.
>> Um and everything is covered in lead
paint. I have 2-year-old toddlers and so
part of this is abatement of any
possible lead. But we are hoping
actually to preserve the gable as it is.
Um as well as the existing roof and just
really replacing the moldings and
everything else. So really kind of doing
very little to to to any of that. We're
not touching the ballisters. Uh we're
keeping the original spindles. The porch
really should not look noticeably
different to people who have known it
before except for that it extends just a
little bit further out. It should really
be as much original as possible.
And also I think that you know um
as I understand it now um looking at it
you would still be able to understand
what had been there all along and what's
being changed
uh without standing out as a change. You
can kind of pick up that where where
things looked originally.
Um, so that makes me more comfortable.
>> There is a side entry door in the L now.
>> Mhm.
>> With another set of steps. There are
three entrances into the house. We're
really kind of making a front door and a
back door and trying to codify it a
little bit.
>> Mhm.
Are there members of the public who
wanted to speak about this application?
Okay.
Uh notwithstanding that Shirley has a
different uh view on this porch, um is
anyone wanting to put forth a motion
about what we'd like to do? Um, I'll
[clears throat] put forward a motion to
accept the application as presented.
» Second.
» A second.
» Okay. Um,
» let's go ahead and have a a roll call on
that, please. On that motion,
>> Miss Satderfield.
» Oh, I already made my decision. Yes.
>> Yes. to the motion.
>> Yes.
>> Okay.
Miss Howard?
>> Yes.
>> Miss Capazolei?
>> Yes.
>> Chair Sher?
>> Yes.
>> Okay. Motion has passed.
>> Thank you very much.
>> Thank you all very much.
>> Thank you.
» Okay.
Thank you.
» [clears throat]
» Oh, okay. Um, would the um application
for 30 lid like to take the table?
I'm going to uh just mention one thing
is these microphones are kind of
sensitive. So, when you're talking just
lean into them.
>> Sounds good.
If you could both raise your Are you
both going to be speaking on? Yes. Okay.
If you could both raise your right hand.
Um do u do you swear that that the
testimony you're about to give shall be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth to help you God.
>> Yes.
I do.
>> Okay. And then if you could state your
full names for the record.
>> Sure.
>> Luke Hermer,
>> Ana Tavgar. Okay.
So, go ahead and tell us about your
project. Um, let's get it up on the
screen if we can.
» Do you want to start? You want to be on
the screen?
>> Yeah, I mean I can start. So, we bought
this house uh about a year ago. Uh, and
when we bought it, it had a uh like
dilapidated garage on it that was by
ASIS. Uh, and so, you know, when we
moved in, we were like, we want to, you
know, refurbish this and change it. We
had a architect come, Ronald Berlin,
whose letter is in the testimony. And
then same thing with a builder, a Smith,
who
>> does a lot of work in the neighborhood,
lives in the neighborhood.
>> Uh, and they both were basically like,
yeah, this has to be demolished and torn
down. Uh and then so then we were
evaluating other options and basically
noticed that a lot of the uh houses in
the neighborhood don't have garages and
so we were like okay well maybe we don't
need one. It would be really expensive
to completely redo everything uh about
the garage. So we applied for a building
permit to get the garage to demolish the
garage and we received the permit and so
then we demolished the garage. Uh, and
then when we wanted to, we decided we
wanted to just do a small patio off the
back. Uh, and put a fence in and put in
like a little prefab shed for storage.
uh we applied to do so and were informed
that you know we needed to get approval
from the historic district uh in order
to do that and have then like I guess
retroactively sort of applied for
demolition of the garage including
informing our neighbors and publishing
stuff in the newspaper. Yeah.
>> And whatnot. Uh and so the proposed
changes would be it's like a small uh
like blue stone patio
>> paver
>> uh or with pavers
>> uh it's a cedar wood fence and uh the
shed is like just a prefab like Quaker
shed
>> on the shed. Also, I will mention too
regarding the building permit we
received for the demolition. Um, that
was an instance of going to the
municipal office window and, you know,
ringing the bell or whatever it is and
just saying, "Hey, we we don't know
what's going on, but we need a permit."
Um, and we weren't directed to speak
with with Sarah or the Historic
Preservation Commission. Um, so that's
how that process went forward without
doing this first.
Thank you. Um Sarah, do you want to tell
us about
>> Sure. Uh I'm going to kind of largely
read this one in full because it's a
little more complex. Uh so apologize for
my garbled length. Um the applicants uh
Ania and Luke have filed an application
for historic preservation plan review
related to the replacement of the
existing wood fence with the cedar fence
at 30 Lidle Street. The scope of work
also includes items that are not visible
from the public rightway such as the
installation of a pre-fabricated shed
and the installation of a blue stone
patio in the rear yard. The site is
identified as block 1501, lot 17 on the
Princeton tax map and is located in the
R4B zone within the Witherspman Jackson
Historic District. The property is
designated on Princeton's historic
overlay district as a type two, which is
defined per 10T T10B2 is subject to
preservation plan review for any changes
visible from the public ride ofway. In
addition, in the application
description, the applicant noted that
they had applied for a building permit
to demolish and remove the detached
garage, concrete slab, and a portion of
the existing driveway on May 5th, 2026.
Am I um a building permit was granted on
May 6, 2026 for the demolition of a
one-story woodframe garage listed as a
shed. However, no prior historic
preservation plan review application was
filed for the demolition of the garage
or the hardscape changes to the side and
rear yards. Once staff learned about the
demolition of the garage uh and the of
the demolition, staff followed up with
the building department to let them know
that exterior changes within a historic
preservation zoning district, including
but not limited to the demolition and
removal of any structure subject to
historic preservation plan review and
should be referred to the office of
historic preservation immediately. It
appears that the building department
believes the removal of such a small
structure such as a shed would not
require HBC review and did not refer the
application to the historic preservation
officer. In early discussions with the
applicant, it appeared the applicant
largely assumed the same or was unaware
regarding the garage and staff
instructed them on the required
application noticing under T10B 378 and
T10B390.
Although the garage has been demolished,
the commission should consider if it met
the criteria outlined under T10B390,
including whether or not the garage
could not have been put to a reasonable
use and its preservation would have and
whether or not its preservation would
have imposed a financial hardship on the
applicant. The property is in the Wii
Jackson Historic District as shown on
municipal overlay zoning map of historic
districts and buffer districts on the
south side of Lidle Street east of the
intersection of John and Lidle Streets.
The Willisman Jackson Historic District
is primarily a residential district
unique in Princeton with a period of
significance that reflects the
development of one of the earliest
African-American communities in New
Jersey from 1830 to 1969. The district's
cultural significance is represented
through the built environment that
developed over time in simple vernacular
styles due to economic disparity,
displacement, and discrimination. 30
Lidle Street is a two-story woodframe
vernacular dwelling constructed s circa
1900 along with its neighbor 32 Lidle Street originally 28 and 30 Lidle
respectively. The former garage located
southwest of the dwelling in the rear
yard was a one-story frame building clad
and stuck with an asphalt shingle gable
roof and an asphalt shingle halfhipped
roof extension over the north front
elevation which featured vertical board
sliding doors. Historic Sandborn maps
indicate that the garage was constructed
circa 1925.
The construction of the detached garages
or similarsly sized out buildings was
not uncommon in the Wii Jackson
neighborhood between 1918 and 1927. Most
of this development appears to have been
concentrated along the north section of
the neighborhood as parcels along Lee
and Birch were laid out and were later
accelerated by the construction of
Palmer Square. However, the central
cross streets of the district also saw
the construction of these outbuildings,
including those on Lidle, McClean,
Quarry, and Green, with a few appearing
on along John Street as well. While it's
difficult to confirm if they were all
constructed specifically as garages,
historic photos from the Historical
Society of Princeton showed the presence
of cars throughout the neighborhood as
widespread car ownership expanded
nationally in the 1920s. For communities
like Withersman Jackson, car ownership
also provided a level of freedom to
travel beyond their walkable
neighborhood. This is reflected in the
annual Negro Motorist Guide Book, also
known as the Green Book, a travel guide
for African-Americans during the Jim
Crow era, that included advertisements
for four Princeton businesses within the
Withers Jackson neighborhood. Cars also
provided additional employment
opportunities beyond those at Princeton
University or within the Manners,
especially at the Princ after the
Princeton Fastline Trolley that l ran
along Witherspoon Street was shut down
in 1930. While the garage at 30 Lidle
Street appeared to be utilitarian in
design with little to no architectural
ornamentation compared to other garages
from the period, its significance is
marked by the development it
represented. The Wman Jackson Historic
District is first and foremost a
historic district designated for its
cultural significance. This significance
is reflected in the built environment of
not just vernacular residences but also
outbuildings and garages that survive
from earlier periods. For a community
facing racial discrimination,
segregation, and limited employment
opportunities, the freedoms provided by
car ownership in the early 20th century
were not insignificant. This importance
is reflected in the increased
development of rear out buildings and
garages between 1918 and 1927. Based on
current aerials, few of these
outbuildings remain extent with the
majority still concentrated along Lee
and Birch. Additionally, staff can only
find one similar design similarly
designed extent garage to 30 lid on man,
although it is a smaller version. The
integrity of a cultural historic
district like Witherspman Jackson is
largely reflected in the cohesive
setting and building density of the
neighborhood. While a small shattered
garage may not be architecturally
significant, it can reflect the unique
history, development, and character of
the surrounding area.
This application represents an after
the-act demolition review that did
obtain building permits in addition to
the proposed improvements after the
demolition of the garage. In addition to
reviewing the appropriateness of the
replacement fence, staff recommends that
the commission consider the following
while conducting their historic
preservation plan review. whether the
demolition of the garage met this
criteria outlined under 10B390,
including whether or not the garage
could not have been put to a reasonable
use and whether its preservation would
have imposed a financial hardship on the
applicant, whether proposed project
would adversely affect the exterior
architectural features and setting of
the property as well as its historic and
architectural character. Whether the
proposed project preserves or enhances
the historic architectural value of the
character of the property. Whether the
proposed project is appropriate to and
compatible with the existing structures
and landscape of the district. Whether
the proposed fencing is appropriate for
the historic preservation district and
the dwelling on the property. Whether
proposed fencing would change the open
streetscape or obstruct the view of
these nearby structures.
» Thank you.
my um
first um item here. Um
well, let me first find out if there's
any comment from anybody in the public
first on this project. Okay. Uh I guess
the first thing I'm I'm going to ask um
Sarah or Lisa is what is the action that
we're that's before us tonight on this?
What do we
are we looking for?
>> Just I was gonna say just I think the
board is just determining whether or not
um it would have approved the
demolition. Um I don't think the board
has the legal authority to um I mean I the board has [clears throat] the
legal authority to make factual findings
but the board wouldn't for instance if
the board said this was wrongful cannot
order to you know the building be
rebuilt or anything like that. It's just
more for purposes of um uh setting forth
a record about um and making findings
about um the really what what is in the
board's purview which is whether or not
um it would have approved demolition.
>> Thank you.
>> Does that help?
>> Sorry. Do you have anything to add? I
yeah, I think that's that's we're
they're you're reviewing the the
application they submitted of the fence
and the the the other changes to the
backyard, which aren't really visible,
so it's not really within our
jurisdiction. Um, and then an after
the-act review of the demolition of the
garage.
>> Yep.
>> There's no recourse, but on the record
of whether or not we would have whe it would have been approved.
>> Thank you. Can I ask a quick question?
>> Yes.
>> I'm wondering Sarah, we got it late if
the um statement from Abel Smith was
also given to the board.
>> It was uploaded to all the I just want
to make sure that both you have both
documents because they talk about the
>> they address the um the guidelines for
demolition
>> both Abel Smith and Ron Berlin,
>> right?
Um
>> I have a question for Lisa really. Um,
how does the fact that they they
received zoning approval, how does that
affect us?
>> Well, I think it definitely
impacts the, you know, impacts what
happened. It it you can't ignore that
it, you know, they they had gotten
building approval. Um, so it you can
definitely consider that this is a very
unique situation. But I would also, you
know, look at the, you know, the
historic preservation standards because
I think it's important just publicly
also not not just for, you know, one
application, but just in general, um, so
people understand, you know, the
demolition standards you to, you know,
to go through those standards and and to
review it here just to make a public
record. But at the same time, I think it
is reasonable to consider the fact that
the building department issued approval.
I I definitely think that that is a
reasonable consideration.
I'll make a comment.
Um,
I do think that
it's remiss of the building department
to
just casually um allow for a demolition
in a historic district. I think that's
beyond their ability to approve. On the
other hand, this building is in terrible
shape and it's not really significant as
far as its architectural style. So, I
think we're
in some ways just lucky. So, I do think
we would have allowed the demolition of
this, but I don't think it was right for
the building department to say, "Okay, I
think we should have been able to at
least have Sarah look at it." So, but
given the fact that this all happened,
I'm I'm comfortable moving on,
you know, with the whole thing.
» Surely,
do you have some comments to add?
Okay. Well, she may be thinking about it
some. I will tell you my thoughts what I
think are are consistent with what we're
hearing overall this evening and you
know this is from a historic
preservation point of view and what's
happening on a property and a historic
resource uh regardless of its condition.
Uh, I think that the point that Sarah
brings up, well, um, we we think it's
not a high-style building. It's a part
of the complete package of what was
going on in that neighborhood, which is
significant, but well, moving on from
there, I I think that a, you know,
unfortunate series of actions took
place. Um, the building is gone. Um but
I think this is as as I think
everybody's saying an opportunity for
all the parties and and and I mean the
municipal parties um property owners but
also some of the contractors who are
familiar with this area and familiar
with this town also too have kind of
guided you or misguided you. Um, I kind
of like this be, you know, as far as the
record goes, anyone reads our minutes,
um, that this is a situation that we'd
like not to see happen or if it's going
to happen and that's still the same
result we come up with, at least we've
done our process on it. And, um, I think
that's
the most we can ask for. Um but I think
if we can also uh kind of reverberate
from here that um that the departments
and the people that you know are in
charge of giving permission need to uh
be aware um and to that actually and I
we don't need to get into these details
but I understand that notice of what
properties are within districts
sometimes is is lost that property
owners don't always realize that and
that's something that's on our long-term
plan. It's in our uh design guideline
review. Um this is something that
um we want to try and be um more aware
of and and try to work on more
proactively and um there we are. Um
actually, thank you for coming in. Thank
you for your your honest description of
what happened and um
>> yeah,
>> wants to make a comment.
Yeah, I would like to make a comment f
first. Welcome to the neighborhood.
>> Uh, thank you. I
>> I live in the Witherspoon Jackson
neighborhood, but I would be remiss if I
didn't comment on the following. Um, we
over the past year and a half, we've
been working with a very talented
consultant named Dominique
Wilkins who is putting together Hawkins,
I'm sorry, Hawkins, right?
Hawkins, who's putting together
uh a navigational tool that goes over
every single historic district in
Princeton so that people who move into
Princeton, in particular in a historic
district,
know that they are in a historic
district.
My point is is that Witherspoon Jackson
may not be uh Mercer Hill, Hyd Road,
uh Constitution Hill. It's not Ca. It
it's the word vernacular means it's kind
of helter skelter. So, it would be easy
to know that you had moved into a very
uh regular house in the Witherspoon
Jackson neighborhood and it's not a
historic district. But the truth is is
that neighborhood
arguably
has greater history
than any neighborhood in this town.
and I and others worked on this being a
historic district, this Princeton's 20th
historic district. And I got to tell
you, it did not come easy.
>> It was a allout struggle
>> because there were many people that
thought it wouldn't make the historic
district designation because
h of houses like the one you bought.
>> But here's the real story. There's more history in that house.
The Trotman's live there.
Uh Mary Tropman, Mr. and Mrs. Tropman,
Marv Tropman was a great basketball
player at Princeton High School. He grew
up in that house. That house is loaded
with history. So my last point in in
bringing this to a close is is that I
think that
uh
we sometime lose sight of
what's valuable architecturally
because it's not it's not pretty.
>> It like it may not make that much sense.
But uh you do live in a hell of a
historic district and and and uh I hope
that uh
and it's not the first time.
>> But but to be honest,
the these sort of things don't happen
anywhere else but in our in our in in
our neighborhood.
>> And we got to stop that.
>> Um you didn't make the mistake.
We made the mistake. And we got to
correct that because that cost us.
That raggedy ass shack in the back of
your house was something really
important to a lot of people and under
different circumstances.
We would have made you renovate that
damn shack. We you would have brought it
back to the way it used to be. That's what kills me in this whole
conversation. I'm not mad at you. I'm just tremendously disappointed and
sad
>> that we lost that little raggedy shack.
>> Yeah.
>> Because that's that's the kind of thing
like people rebuild their lives when
they get shattered.
>> That's what historic designation is. You
rebuild shacks when they lose their
integrity. So
>> yeah,
>> I hate to wax poetic and take longer
than I should have, but it was important
that I shared this with you. And I hope
everybody uh here was paying attention
and everybody online was paying
attention. And I hope somebody covered
this that's in the local newspapers and lets people know what I said here
today. Thank you.
>> I want to thank you um Councilman Nuland
for for offering that testimony. I think
it's really really important and I
agree. You know, we we tried as best as
we could to to go through proper
channels and even bringing in Mr. Berlin
and Mr. Smith to come and look at the
what at the property was because we know
they have a a real reverence for the for
the Witherspoon Jackson neighborhood in
the historic district. Um, and it wasn't
just an it wasn't an accident that those
were the two people that we consulted
about this. Um, but also I agree I agree
with everything you said and we want to
also be uh reverent and responsible um
members of this neighborhood and this
community.
>> We are happy that you're here. Welcome
again to the neighborhood. We got some
work to do to go. Thanks.
>> Yeah. Thank you.
>> Thank you.
>> Porchfest 9:26. It's going to be
happening in the neighborhood.
» Thank you everybody for these comments.
I think they're they're very meaningful.
Back to the application. I I guess the
other parts of it, the patio and stuff
aren't really under our purview, so
we're not really looking at an
application for that. We're Yes. So the prefab shed and the patio would
ultimately fall out of the view of the
public rightway, but the fence and the whatever would need to be voted on
for historic preservation plan review is
the fence which was provided in the
application specs and whether the garage
met the criteria, the demolition
criteria.
So, we're looking for a motion on that
or
>> Yes.
>> Okay.
» Anybody got that?
I I guess it's just defense and that we
have
by default we have to accept that the
demolition of the garage happened.
>> Not by no not by default is as we
you can find that it didn't meet the
criteria. It's just that we don't have
for the record that it didn't meet the
criteria under 390
for the record, but then we're there's
no other recourse outside of that.
>> That's for you to
decide.
>> So, do we have drawings of the patio? I
see drawings here, but I'm not sure what
I'm looking at.
Is this it?
>> Hello.
>> Charlie.
>> Yes. I've been saying hello for the past
10 minutes. Can you hear me
>> now? We can. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Well, I just want to say what
Leighton has said is exactly what I was
going to talk about. I went past the
house when I when I was going to the
American Legion, which is one of the
buildings that's going to be renovated.
That's a historic um post. And I looked
at the house and I thought the house
really looked they didn't do very much
to change it from the historic district
except for what Leighton said about the
um about the garage. Also, I want to say
that um I was going to talk about
Mildred Trotman, not Mildred Trotman,
but uh one of the Trotmans who lived in
that house. Um
uh I want to also say that when this
historic district was started, it
started in my dining room with nine
people, three from Princeton community
and how many left? Six from those of us
who grew up in this town. And uh when
people call, I get so many calls, would
you like to sell your house? I spend
time giving them the history of the
Witherspoon Jackson community and they
hang up. So I want I want everyone to
know including the two who live on Lidle
Street is that when you move in this
neighborhood, remember our ancestors and
remember our families who took care of
not only this community but all of
Princeton. So thank you Leighton for the
speech that I was going to say. You
already told it but I I kept saying
hello. Nobody heard me. So thank you.
>> Thank you.
>> We're coming in from this.
» Um,
we're still trying to reconcile what the
drawings tell us and what what we're
trying to look at. From
>> Yes.
>> From what we're looking [clears throat]
what Freda and I are looking at, we we see a a garage building that's marked
masonry on the drawing. So, that's not
the one that came down, although that
seems to be the location of It was
surveyed as masonry, but it was stuck
over frame.
>> Oh.
>> Uhhuh.
>> So that's what Okay. So then the fence
is this line.
here. Yeah.
>> So what are we approving regarding the
fence?
» So this is the building that actually
did come down.
>> And this is the fence line.
>> Got it. And that's going to be What do
we know about the fence? Is it
>> um It's a shadow box cedar fence.
>> Yeah, we're just replacing the existing
one and then we're like adding a little
gate at the end of the driveway.
>> Were you adding it?
>> It's like a gate.
>> If the house is here, the driveway, it's
like the very end.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I didn't know.
>> But this doesn't look like it because on
the survey it's like in the middle of
the property.
Thank you.
» Oh, okay. So, we didn't see those.
>> Oh, and this is just
>> Yeah. And the shadow box in here.
>> Okay.
>> And then this.
>> And then I guess this would be the
patio.
>> Yeah.
>> Which is not really visible.
Okay.
» What's a motion? [laughter]
» Julie, do you have um
>> Julie's better at motions?
>> And a motion for this one.
>> Yeah, I'll I'm happy to make a motion.
Um, I move that we approve the the fence
and the patio
and that we as a commission
state our
displeasure with the building department
for
>> uh issuing a demolition permit. Um, you
know, just as the statement that that
should not that practice should not
continue.
» Second.
>> I second.
>> Okay.
>> Second.
>> Shirley first.
>> Shirley second.
All in favor or are you going to do roll
call?
>> Um, are we making a motion on the
demolition itself?
>> Yeah. Well, do we have to go beyond that
and say we approve the demolition or can
we just say that
>> we didn't question.
>> Okay, Lisa.
>> Sure. You I you can do either. I I mean
I think it might be helpful for the
record for you to make a decision if
you're able to on the demolition, but
>> or it could be a case of we don't have
enough information.
>> Yeah. You Right. I I think the most
important point here is just to make
sure the process
>> is corrected
>> and that you know that's I think that's
where we kind of are as far as
what we see. Um you know it could have
been presented in a lot of different
contexts. So I'm not sure.
>> Yeah. No, that's that's fair.
>> Yeah.
>> All right. So with the
>> you can absolutely yeah you can I guess
>> include that maybe you know may you may
not have enough information to make that
determination right
>> on the demolition
>> because it is after the fact and you
don't have
>> right so I guess that's where I stand
>> and that our goal from that is that a a
message is
comes out that the building department
really needs to coordinate with Sarah's
office.
>> Yes. and um
these poor people had to come to the
principal's office because of it. Um
>> right.
>> So our our our our motion is that we
acknowledge that this demolition
happened. If we'd had a chance to review
it more properly, we may have
a different outcome or we may I'm I'm
stumbling now. Um,
» I think we would would have appreciated
an opportunity to review it,
>> right? We would have appreciated an
opportunity to review it and hope that
the building department hears this loud
and clear.
As for the fence, we find that that's
acceptable and
>> right
>> and that the patio we can't see is not
our business,
>> right?
>> That part out.
Roll call vote. Miss Satderfields.
>> Yes.
>> Miss Howard?
>> Yes.
>> Miss Capazolei?
>> Yes.
>> Chair Sher?
>> Yes.
>> Resolution is passed.
>> Thank you.
>> All right.
>> Thank you guys.
All right. Next up, courtesy review for
the Princeton Battlefield State Park.
» Small correction to the agenda. This is
more of a presentation than a review.
Um, but the commission is of course open
to provide comments. I'm
>> I'm sorry. It's a This is a
presentation.
>> Presentation.
Okay. I Right. I was reading it.
Well, welcome everybody. Lisa's about to
um get you all started.
Just a presentation.
All right. And we're I guess we're
looking to see if we can get your audio
video stuff up. I see Sarah's down the
hall. pressure on.
>> Oh, look at that.
» Aha,
>> I saw it.
» All right. We don't need to be swearing
you in, but if you all as a group would
like to introduce yourselves for the for
the community, for the panel, and then
we'll just take it from there.
>> Go ahead.
>> Hi, my name is L. Mcnite. I'm a state
and local government relations manager
for the American Battlefield Trust. I
cover the state of New Jersey and spend
a lot of time up here in Princeton. It's
one of my favorite places to come and
I'm very excited about the project that
we're working on together.
I'm Will Krakower. I'm the resource
interpretive specialist for the New
Jersey Department of Environmental
Protection, Division of Parks, Forests,
and Historic Sites, which is the long
way of saying I am the chief historian
and site manager for Princeton
Battlefield State Park.
I'm Ben Strong, president of the
Princeton Battlefield Society and I've
been on the board of the Princeton
Battlefield Society since 2003.
» Sorry, six.
>> Pleasure to be here with you. My name is
Glenn Stack. I'm a preservation
landscape architect, a consultant to the
American Battlefield Trust, speaking
today on the topic of cultural landscape
preservation. Thank you.
All right. So, I'm kicking it off. Uh,
for those of you uh who have not visited
the battlefield, I'm certain you've
driven through it. Uh, it is obviously
an important part of our nation's
history, the world's history, but more
specifically of Princeton's history. Uh,
if you want to just hit that real quick.
Uh, a brief overview in case you are
unaware of the importance of this site.
The Battle of Princeton occurred on the
morning of January the 3rd, 1777. We are
now less than six months away from the
250th anniversary of that date. It is
the third and final battle in what
became known as the 10 crucial days
campaign, which began with Washington's
crossing of the Delaware River on
Christmas night, 1776.
Nine days of fighting and maneuvering
later, General Washington commits what
we call a rudigare, a ruse of war and
marches overnight from Trenton to
Princeton and catches the rear guard
stationed here at Princeton on the
morning of the third fighting this
climactic action. It cements
Washington's uh reputation as a
commanding general of the army and it
also seals uh what I like to call the
first chapter of the American Revolution
in favor of the Continental Army and
keeps the flame of independence from
growing out uh prematurely.
Our story begins uh much much later in
2016. the uh Institute for Advanced
Study was beginning a project to
construct new faculty housing on the
property adjacent to the battlefield
known as Maxwell's Field. Uh it had
gotten almost all the way through when
the American Battlefield Trust, then
known as the Civil War Trust, became
involved and offered to broker an
agreement with the IAS uh for the
property what uh will become known as
Maxwell's Fields. uh what could have
been just a small sign and a new trail
uh on this property next to the
battlefield instead became something
that's wholly unique for the New Jersey
State Park Service and something truly
wonderful in the world of historic
preservation. By 2022, just a few years
later, uh we had conducted an
interpretive plan for the park which had
a vision for what the park would one day
become. It included new trails. It
included new fences uh and it included
the possibility of a visitor and
education center for the site. And we'll
talk a little more about uh the needs
for the site as we go forward. Uh
something that's been on my mind lately
and maybe the rest of yours if you're
avid baseball watchers is if you build
it, they will come. This is an
incredible example of that. Uh I started
at the battlefield in 2018. So right as
the initial agreement uh kicked off uh
and in that time I started with about
400 school children coming in per year.
We are now well over 5,000 per year. Uh
because of that things have to change.
Uh Princeton Battlefield has largely
suffered uh from what I politely call
benign neglect uh for a very long time.
Uh maintenance has been deferred in
every quadrant of the park for far too
long. And we now find ourselves at that
wonderful and unique juncture between a
major uh commemorative event, the 250th,
and back in the 2010s, the threat of
development uh on the eastern side of
the park.
between the Department of Environmental
Protection, the American Battlefield
Trust, and the Princeton Battlefield
Society. We've come together uh to work
on bringing this interpretive plan to
reality. We've created MOAs with each
other going all the way back to 2023
uh to fund raise for continued
interpretation and the rehabilitation to
the site and to preserve it uh support
its preservation treatment moving
forward. Uh I'm sure it comes as no
surprise that managing a site like this
is incredibly expensive and that the
state's budget is not very big. Uh so we
learned very quickly that we're going to
have to rely on the township. We're
going to have to rely on private
funding. Uh which is why this memorandum
of understanding is so important. uh and
that we're so grateful to have had uh
the American Battlefield Trust hop on
and of course always continuously
grateful for the Princeton Battlefield
Society's role in keeping us uh relevant
within the community.
There are four major projects uh that
have come to shape the most recent
rehabilitation
uh project and you probably noted I keep
using the phrase rehabilitation. We
cannot use the word restoration. Uh,
restoration means that we would actually
have physical evidence or a photograph
of something that we're going to
recreate. And as I'm sure you're well
aware, there are no cameras in 1776.
So, we're going based on handdrawn maps
and paintings of the time, uh, as well
as archaeology and primary source
accounts written by the men and women
who were actually living here in
Princeton and what was actually not
Princeton, but the Quaker settlement of
Stony Brook 250 years ago. The two
projects we want to highlight for you
today is what we call project one,
trees, trails, fields, and fences, and
project four, which involves the
Maxwell's field rehabilitation. The
other two projects uh are largely being
uh conducted by the NJ DP. Uh as a brief
overview, as I mentioned, our visitation
has increased exponentially over the
last several years. Uh we need to take
away some of the uh onus on the Thomas
Clark house which is an original witness
structure to the battle now over well
over 250 years old. It cannot support
that many people coming through and act
as the site's sole visitor center and
visitor contact station for much longer.
Um, we also want a place to better tell
the story, the full story, not only of
uh the fighting that occurred on the
morning of the 3, but the story of the
Quaker settlement that was here and the
settlement in Princeton and the College
of New Jerseys role in the American
Revolution as well. Uh, the new entry
parking is also being covered by the
NJP. I am sure we will be coming to you
in due time to discuss that.
So, go right ahead. So, I'll start where
we always start and where I'm sure you
always start too, which is the research.
This is the earliest map of uh the
battlefield as it existed at the time.
There are certainly earlier maps of the
area, but none of them have as much
detail as this one. It was done in 1816
by a man named James Wilkinson, who at
the time is a soldier in the Continental
Army. uh when he wrote his memoirs, he
came back to these places uh and did an
extensive amount of research on the maps
and the troop movements as they existed.
Uh because this was the earliest map and
it so very clearly depicted the orchard
uh and not only the orchard but also uh
what we know today as Mercer Road or
Princeton Pike which is running right
down the m the center of the orchard. Uh
we chose to use this as one of our
primary sources for the location and the
recreation of the orchard and a number
of fence lines which you'll see in just
a moment uh where we're going to be
placing those.
Uh and for those who aren't aware of the
history of the Stony Brook settlements,
uh you'll see a number of names up there
that might sound familiar. Thomas Clark
being the one at the battlefield.
Benjamin Clark, the property today
largely owned by the IAS and the uh
Historic Society of Princeton, the
Quaker meeting house which has exactly
the exact same square footage that it
had uh 250 years ago in 1776. William
Clark to the east and to the north,
Matthew Clark and Robert White who is
married into the Clark family as well. U
go ahead. This is one of my favorite
photographs of the park. It's one of the
earliest aerial photographs taken in
1945.
It depicts the battlefield on its west
side looking east back towards town. If
you were to follow the road in the
middle there, that's Mercer Road. It
would take you all the way back to
Princeton. Some notable features down on
the bottom right where it says number
three is the Thomas Clark house and the
barn. If you follow the driveway all the
way back down towards the center of the
photograph to Mercer Road, you'll note a
number of small shrubs on the side of
the road, those are the Norway spruces
which today tower over the driveway at
Princeton Battlefield State Park. They
had been planted about a decade prior.
Um, and if you look across the fields
there, uh, on the upper left hand side,
you might see, uh, David's house all the
way in the back left corner. Uh but uh
that number one spot there was
recognized as the common grave where the
mass grave is today. It's near where the
colonade stands today. This photograph
was taken about 10 years before the
colonade was moved. You can actually see
it in the photograph just above number
two. There is the Mercer Manor uh
sitting up there and the colonade is at
the moment still attached to that
building. [laughter]
Go ahead.
I like that image because we've used a
similar vantage point for what we expect
the battlefield will look like come the
end of this year. What you're seeing all
the way on the top side of the image is
the faculty housing constructed by the
Institute for Advanced Study. That
housing has concluded. Uh what you're
seeing as you come down is the addition
of Maxwell's Field and the new trails
that will link the existing park to the
new section of the park which is slated
to be added by the end of the year to
Princeton Battlefield. There are two
tree lines in the if you go back to the
previous one, two tree lines of note.
The first is right where it says number
four. That's of course the old Mercer
Oak there. But that tree line today no
longer exists. There are maybe three or
four trees still standing along that
tree line. It's important for us because
it's the property boundary between
Thomas Clark and his brother William
Clark. And the other boundary of note is
just to the north of that. And uh so if
you go look for number two and look
down, follow that tree line there. That
is a driveway which we recently
discovered when doing work on the
property. It's the original driveway of
William Clark's home, which would have
been somewhere in that mess of trees uh
250 years ago.
And you can see it there with a few
trees dotting that extent road uh
structure. The fencing that you see in
the image here is all historic. Uh it is
chosen based on archaeology and maps of
the area uh and descriptions from the
soldiers and the Clark family and the
Hail family who followed them. One other
item of note which is worth mentioning,
you'll see near the top left of the
image is the apple orchard uh which is
sort of the premier uh historic
preservation project for us. The
recreation of a commemorative orchard
near the location of where the original
orchard stood. Uh apple orchards are
incredibly important to 18th century
history. uh everybody who owned property
had one uh either for mass production
mostly for their own con consumption or
in some cases as I like to say mad
scientists who like to breed different
kinds of apples as a as a pastime. Uh it
also plays of course a central role in
the opening shots of the Battle of
Princeton.
With that I'm going to hand it over to
Mr. Mcnite to tell us a little bit about
our partnership.
>> Great. Thanks Will. And uh yeah, I just
want to highlight here just how
important the partnerships are with the
state of New Jersey, the Princeton
Battlefield Society, and the American
Battlefield Trust to making this whole
reimagining Princeton plan come
together.
Um just a little bit about the American
Battlefield Trust. Uh we're a national
nonpartisan nonprofit battlefield
preservation organization dedicated to
preserving our nation's hollow ground
from the Civil War, the Revolutionary
War, and the War of 1812. Uh to date we
have saved uh 63,000 acres across the
nation across 25 different states. Uh we
provide a wide variety of educational
resources
um on our website and on our YouTube
channel um and have reached 40 million
people uh annually um and uh so that's
just a little bit about the American
Battlefield Trust.
Now, we originally, as Will mentioned,
were the Civil War Trust and only did
Civil War battlefields. Princeton
Battlefield was one of the first
revolutionary battlefields that we came
in and helped save land at. Uh, so as he
mentioned, the Institute of Advanced
Study was going to um build faculty
housing. You can see the original
footprint in the light blue there. Um,
we were able to come in with a group of
preservationists and actually reach an
agreement. uh got them to revise the
footprint down to that dark blue oval up
there where it currently sits. Uh and as
a result were able to save Maxwell's
Field, the site of Washington's charge
where he, you know, led the charge
against the British, helping to turn the
tide of the battle. Um and ultimately
the American Revolution. Uh so this is
very very important hollowed ground uh
that we were a part of helping to save.
Um, now as part of our phase one
interpretive work at the battlefield,
we've done a a wide variety of things
and I encourage you all to get out there
and check them out if you haven't. Um,
but in the top right you can see Will
actually interacting with the large
topographical map of the battlefield.
And this is a very great feature. It
actually you can use your phone scan the
QR code and overlay troop movements on
the map. So I it's one of the best ways
you can really learn about how the
battle unfolded. Um, some really cool
other features that we've got on the
battlefield are the uh battle windows.
So, we took a a painting of the Battle
of Princeton and were able to overlay it
on the landscape of the Princeton
battlefield. Uh, we have two of those
now at the park and this is one of the
coolest features I've seen at a
battlefield and actually I think it's
something that's going to spread to
other battlefields across the country
with how popular it has been. Um, yes.
And, uh, you know, [clears throat] part
of the work we've done has also involved
archaeology.
um as part of the due diligence of any
anytime we're you know the ground is
being disturbed we're going to do
archaeology there. Um found some very
cool things there. One of the one of my
personal favorites is the uh coin from
the Jacobite rebellion uh that they
found there featured in the center of
the picture here.
Uh this photo just shows all of the
archaeology that has gone on throughout
the years at the Princeton battlefield.
Uh you can see in the in the red and the
green all areas that have been looked at
with the by archaeologists um notably
around the Clark house down in the south
uh up near the orchard um and near where
the institute of advanced study is as
well. So just showing all the areas
we've done archaeology at.
uh Will mentioned this a little bit
earlier, but uh sort of phase two of the
project is the hopeful wish that we will
have a visitor and education center at
the Princeton battlefield so that um the
Thomas Clark house no longer needs to
serve as the uh sort of visitor center.
It's a historic house and it's really
not best equipped for that. We want to
try to preserve that um and have a
proper visitor and education center.
It'll be better to accommodate larger
school groups uh and visitors. it'll
hopefully attract more tourism to the
town as well.
Um, just looping in the theme of
partners as well. Um, with the orchard,
we brought in pomologists, apple
experts. I I just learned that word
recently. um from Mount Vernon,
Montichello, all sorts of historic sites
to help advise how to best um you know
manage and steward this new orchard uh
that we plan to have placed at the
battlefield which is a very important
feature of the battlefield to understand
how the battle unfolded. Um that's what
we want is we want George Washington if
he was to come back and look at the
battlefield he would recognize it as the
battle of Princeton like he saw it back
in the day.
Um as part of the work goes on uh phase
one uh also includes field management.
Um so the trust has been working very
hard to reduce mowing uh on the on the
park uh and to bring back the natural
biod diversity of the area. Uh the trust
has a land stewardship uh expert that is
uh leading the charge for us on this. Uh
Tom Selli. uh he takes very careful uh
work to make sure like any ground
nesting birds and uh natural wildlife
are not disturbed and actually enhancing
the environment of Princeton through
this work.
Um and lastly here I'll I'll highlight
the you know Will's personal favorite
here the Battlefield Bioblitz. I don't
know if you all have heard of it. Um,
but we've partnered with Sustainable
Princeton, the Friends of Princeton Open
Space, and even Ruckers University, uh,
to ultimate ultimately get people out to
the battlefield and document the
biodiversity that they see on the
battlefield, and this will help inform
future stewardship of the land. So,
that's been a hit so far.
» That's right.
>> All right. And uh Ben, I'll go ahead and
let you talk about the Princeton
Battlefield Society here. [laughter]
>> Thanks. Um Princeton Battlefield Society
has been here for quite a long time
since the 1970s. In a nutshell, our job
would be to protect, preserve, and
promote the Princeton Battlefield in the
memory of the men who fought there
because it is very much hollowed ground.
The uh American Revolution turns at the
Battle of Princeton in the favor of the
patriots. Having said that, uh, we have
been promoting a very vigorous program
both on an educational sense and working
with this tremendous team. As you can
see here, we're very energized. We're
very active and we're doing an awful lot
of different things such as Young
Patriots Day, bringing the younger
generation, experience the Battle of
Princeton, which is our very large scale
reenactment, which we're doing again
this year on December 27th. I should add
last year we had about 3,500 people
there. Sorry, my voice is going with
allergies. And uh that's the biggest
crowd we've ever had for one of those.
And I think this year it's going to be
even bigger. And we have great
expectations for that event.
We also do tours on a regular basis for
people often from out of state uh
bringing in the uh the enthusiasts for
American history from all across the
country. We have a CAD Walder lecture
series where we do [clears throat] uh
every couple of months, usually about
every three months or so, a lecture from
an author or or a historian, sometimes
other individuals on uh American the
American Revolution or something to do
with Princeton.
uh we've had a lot of success with that
and got a lot of attention for that
and we just uh do whatever we can to
bring the focus to the battle of
Princeton which we uh feel has been
somewhat overlooked over the years and
the group that we have here with our
agreement with the D and the ABT
American Battlefield Trust and the
Department of Environment Protection uh
we feel we have really got something
going here that's really good not only
for the battlefield but for Princeton
for the state of New Jersey. So, it's a
type of uh public private partnership
that people want to have but often don't
get. You sort of uh aspire to do what I
think we're doing right now because
we're really uh hitting on all eight
cylinders. So, from our perspective, uh
this is great stuff that's going on and
uh we've had a great uh partnership as
well with the township of Princeton. So,
we're hoping that this can continue.
Thank you, Ben.
So, now on to the application for
project authorization. This is the um
the document that was sent forward to
the historic preservation office uh in
Trenton, and you all received a copy of
that. Specifically, what I wanted to
provide just a context for the last sort
of bit of additional context here is
battlefields as cultural landscapes and right you you deal with historic
properties that come to you and those
properties may be significant for a
historic event. It may be attributed to
a historic designer. Uh it may be an
ethnographic landscape. Uh it may be a
vernacular landscape. All of those
things come together uh in the same way
for landscapes as they do for you know
elements of architecture as well. But
cultural landscapes you know are defined
as natural and cultural spaces that have
been shaped by human interaction. Uh
they are governed by the secretary of
interior standards in the same way that
the secretary of interior standards were
written for buildings. But only recently
in about the 1990s uh were those same
standards written to apply to
landscapes. Uh so within the arc of
preservation it's a relatively young uh
discipline but again the this the same
standards uphold
we four treatments preservation
rehabilitation restoration and
reconstruction which you see frequently
to buildings as will mentioned this is a
rehabilitation uh rehabilitation largely
says protect what you inherit but
repurpose for a new and compatible use
and when will tip you
classified this as it could have just
been a preservation action that started
all of this, the preservation of 13
acres and someone puts up a sign and
says we save this. But it has gone far
beyond that. has been transformative on
the part of the state, on the part of
local partners and the local community
to make this something that really is
befitting of a national historic
landmark battlefield, a best-in-class,
globally significant site. So, as
mentioned, the the study was done of the
archaeology, all of the the background
research of both natural and cultural
resources completed. There are three
principal movements. Uh the meadow
restoration
and I just want to say something you
know from the standpoint of sustainable
practices. There are roughly there are
over 50 acres of land that are mowed
bi-weekly.
>> Yeah. By
>> bi-weekly. We have the opportunity now
to take those 50 acres and create more
sustainable meadows that reinforce the
individual properties, holdings, spatial
character of the historic period. When
we talk about historic landscapes,
there's trees, there's structures, uh
there's circulation, all of that's
important, but spatial character is is a
very significant contributing feature.
and the establishment of the meadows
will be transformative to that spatial
character. Again, proposed species mix
looking at at both warm season grasses,
native legumes, and pollinator species.
Poundforpound, the acre of meadow
restored. And and as naturalists, they say restoration, and they mean
something entirely different than we
would talk about from the standpoint of
preservation. But a restored meadow
pound-for-pound provides more oxygen
than an acre of of trees. From that
standpoint, the rate of oxygen, the deep
root mass that is attributed to this not
only supports the reinterpretation and a
more authentic experience of that 1777
condition, but it's better for the
environment.
We also looked at again three major
movements. the historic William Clark
Lane. On the far right was a tree survey
that was conducted uh by Davy Resource
Group that identified the condition of
that property line separating the IAS
property now owned by the American
Battlefield Trust and the State Park
property identified largely consists of
ash trees, invasive trees, dead trees.
Uh but we we did an extensive study
really over six months to look at at
what's what to save. No large trees of
significance will be removed that aren't
dead or ash. Uh from that standpoint,
there are 219 trees proposed for
removal. 40 of those are dead, 30 are
ash, 35 are hazard trees. There are 115
regulated trees by your ordinance uh
that are proposed for removal. We've
worked closely with uh Taylor Saputo uh
the t the arborist for the municipality
uh and are working to far exceed the
planting the compensatory planting for
the removals. Uh I think by the
compensatory planting um we would be in
the 100s range. were in were over 200
and we're planting those on the east
buffer uh adjacent to the IA property uh
in the commemorative orchard as was
discussed and then we've worked with the
friends of Princeton open space to
identify an area that's been succumb to
emerald ashbor and are planting 100
trees there as well. Why would we do
that and not you know plant them back at
the battlefield in part is to steward
the resource. It's an archaeological,
you know, sensitive resource. So, every
tree that's planted, you know, in in the
eyes of the archaeologist is is
injurious uh to that resource. So, how
do we balance that in a way that's both
respectful of nature and culture? All
the trees planted back will be of native
varieties that are have provenence to
Princeton. Last thing, the heirloom
orchard. Uh, as Will mentioned, uh, you
know, this is a topic in landscape that
I will say is slightly different than
buildings. In in a building, you would
never build back a historic structure
that that was is no longer there. In
most cases, you wouldn't do that.
Landscapes and trees and individual
features like fences have a lifespan
within the landscape. And when they
succumb, they are replaced within a
cultural landscape. when there's
documentation to support that. And
that's precisely what's proposed in the
rehabilitation of an orchard. Uh as Will
mentioned there on on the far side at
the end of the William Clark lane. Uh
we've worked with national experts,
pomologists, which is a fun word to say.
Uh and they have identified the heirloom
species that have providence to
Princeton in the mid 18th century. uh we
are supporting that with uh a collection
of crab apples that will give structure
to the orchard as it develops over time.
These heirloom orchards and varieties
are grown to spec. You can't just run
out to Lowe's and buy them. Um they are
grown specifically for this battlefield.
Uh and the the community that has
congealed around this is really quite
significant. They're writing a
management plan for this orchard that
will span both staff overview uh hired
for hire consultation um to take care of
the trees and then volunteer efforts
spurred by the Princeton Battlefield
Society, local garden clubs and others
that are looking to care for this icon
of nature and culture on the
battlefield.
So what was put forward uh to the
historic preservation or sorry to the um
historic preservation office is a
collection of both uh if you see in the
far right hand corner
non ground disturbing activities and
light ground disturbing activities. So
when we say fields, fences, trees and
trails, these are, you know, low impact,
high return when it comes to the
rehabilitation of this space.
This is a view of Maxwell's field as it
exists now. Again, you know, years of of
inattention here to be assessed and
opened up to the public. Uh this is a
view of course of the overall landscape
character of the battlefield. Even in
this photo, it looks a little bit
different than it did a year ago. Uh
these are the pathways that are now
proposed uh and they're already being
moan to change the experience to make it
more authentic uh and to interpret
features that no longer exist. This is
the tree line that separates the IS
property and the state park property.
Right in the center of it is a very
definable depression of the William
Clark Lane. It went straight to his
house. There are only two roads that run
in that north south direction and they
both went to Clark's uh one to Thomas
Clark and one to William Clark. And so
that exists in there that will remain as
a living relic. Uh it also has small
depressions for the hedge or fence lines
that would have existed to support and
protect that lane during the period.
Again conditions of of the current state
of things at at the state. Um you know
there are a lot of invasives and the
biob blitz has you know provided a
baseline to understand what the
character of that landscape is today. Uh
and I'm happy to say that partners have
signed an agreement to do a biob blitz
every 5 years for the next five years
just to demonstrate program efficacy. Uh
so that should tell us, you know, how
we're doing as new species are planted.
When we look at historic fence lines or
fence lines, there are are at minimum
three
uh details. This is a non-historic fence
line. So this is a five rail uh snake
rail fence.
and that's to to be placed in locations
where there weren't historic fence
lines, but you need the control of
vehicular access, those sorts of things.
Uh there's a dilapidated trail that runs
along that property line. Again, that
historic William Clark Lane is right off
screen to our right. That will be
removed and again, new trails put in its
place. Even today to the far left you
can see the old property line between
Thomas Clark to the right and William
Clark to the left.
And again these are the
IAS properties that were built in 2019
uh and beyond. So additional uh trees
will be planted along that buffer to
support the screening of those lands.
This is a snapshot of the wood lots uh
that are over at Mountain Lakes, an area
that has succumbed to emerald ashbor.
And we'll we will be working with them
to plant 100 trees there. And that's a
location within Mountain Lakes to show
in that circular area the uh roughly
halfacre portion of land.
This is an area of the proposed meadow
restorations. Uh and so these will go
through a process of
controlled burns or prescribed burns and
working with the state forest service
who will be managing that project. Uh
the locality and and working with the
planning office here is very excited
about that. This would be the first of
its kind uh in Princeton. Uh it is you
know absolutely essential from an
ecosystem standpoint uh to contribute to
the rehabilitation of this site.
again the historic fence lines. So this
would be along the the old historic
roads and lanes.
We saw the non-historic and then these
are the five rail post and rail fences
that are out there today that are also
documented from a historic standpoint.
And then lastly the location of
additional trees to be planted along the
IAS buffer.
And with that, that is the the end of of
our review today. We're happy to answer
any additional questions or comments
that you have in in review and I'll
point it to the state or to the American
Battlefield Trust accordingly. So, thank
you for your time.
» Wow, that was a great presentation and I
kind of know some of these pieces, but
this was to see it all together is is
really great. Um, does anybody have any
questions or comments or
very exciting?
>> I have comments. Do you hear me?
>> Yes.
>> Yep.
>> This is Shirley. Um, first of all, thank
you gentlemen. Um, when I was in
elementary school, when they integrated
the schools and I was at the elementary
school on Nassau Street, um, our history
was about Princeton history and we were
taken to the battlefield and I remember
a cannon and cannonballs that were
shaped like a um, shaped in order. What
happened to those cannons and that
cannonball cuz it had been there for
years.
>> That's the the million-dollar question,
believe it or not. Uh, we don't know
what happened to those cannon balls. No
one seems to know the straight answer.
My theory is that they're currently in
the basement of the state museum in
Trenton. Um, those were Civil War era
cannonballs and at some point somebody
decided to take them off of the field.
Uh, the one cannon that used to be out
there is actually still there, but it's
not in the same spot. It's now on the
porch of the Clark house uh in a new
sort of carriage for it. uh the old one
having broken um and probably when you
were there uh it was on its side sitting
in the dirt for some time. But yeah,
that's the million-dollar question. Uh I
get that one a lot. Where are the
cannonballs? Um and uh
>> they were they were up on a hill and you
could it looks like they were facing the land.
>> They were they were placed near the site
where General Mercer was believed to
have fallen. Um yeah uh that monument
when we did the archaeology we found
some evidence of the concrete uh of the
original uh monument. So we know exactly
where it was. Uh it's just a question of
when did those disappear
uh and where did they go and the state
actually does not know [laughter] what
happened to them. Um so come back to me
soon. That's that's my white whale. I'll
find them eventually.
>> I also want to thank the lady. I don't
know who the lady is that regrrew the uh
Mercer tree, but it's beautiful.
>> Yes. Yeah. One of our neighbors from
Parkside Drive is responsible for uh
that 1980s repopulation of the oak. Uh
so the one that's sitting there out
there today, we lovingly call Mercer Oak
Jr. or baby Mercer Oak. Uh she's over 50
years old now, so she's not a baby
anymore, but she is beautiful. Uh right
now Mercer Oaki the third is currently
growing in my office uh getting ready
for replanting somewhere on the field
soon.
>> Well, I like going down Mercer. I always
go that way because it's beautiful. But
I want to know what's happening to the
grass cuz the grass is all brown now.
>> Yeah, that's what we were just talking
about. We're letting the grass grow out
as part of this sustainable
uh programming for the nature of the
site. Um eventually what you're going to
see happen and actually quite soon we
hope is that all of that is going to be
knocked back down uh and then treated
and prepared for a prescribed burn. Uh
once the burn takes place, we will then
be able to sew uh a um what is it
called? Winter wheat.
>> Well, well, we're going to grow winter
wheat. a starter uh crop, a starter
crop, which is winter wheat, which u
interestingly enough is actually what
was growing at the battlefield at the
time of the battle was winter wheat. Uh
once that winter wheat comes up, uh we
will then make the transition from crop
to natural meadow and natural grass. So
wild flowers, pollinators, legumes, uh
grasses that are all native to New
Jersey will take the place of uh some of
those larger swats of land. Uh and as we
continue our progress years, you know, a
few more years down the road with the
creation of the uh visitors center and
the removal of the current parking lot
and the making of the new parking lot,
we'll open more land for the open space
that a lot of Princonians are used to
for flying their kites and and
picnicking. And we're going to enhance
that area for our visitors as well. It's
a delicate balance between this is
hallowed ground. People fought and bled
and died here for an idea. uh that all
men were created equal and at the same
time it's one of the few places with
open space left in Mercer County and New
Jersey. Uh so we have to straddle that
line very very carefully. Uh and we do
have people's thoughts in minds. So
thank you for your input on the grass.
>> Thank you. One other thing, Kip Cherry
who grew up in Princeton is a very is
quite an advocate for the battleground.
>> She's sitting right back here.
>> Kip Cherry's there.
>> Yeah, she's here. [laughter] Oh, okay.
Thank you. A word for Kip.
» Any other commission members want to
comment or ask any questions?
>> I had a quick comment. Um, I wear two
hats because I've been a member of the
commission since 2003, but I've also
been a member of the Princeton Friends
meeting since 2005. So, um, we're
very happy. I think from a preservation
perspective, all the work you're doing,
it's tremendously
exciting and enriching our community.
And from the Princeton friends meeting,
I think you guys have been very
respectful and very um aware of the
Quaker history in our our town,
especially with the Clarks and the
neighboring um cemetery and meeting
house and um the the friends the land
that you know they used to worship
there. So um we also appreciate your
consideration and sensitivity to our our
meeting. So thank you.
>> It's our pleasure. It has been and
remains my uh interpretive
uh philosophy that the battle of
Princeton is 0001%
of the life of [snorts] that land and
that the rest of the time in that period
it belongs to somebody. It was
somebody's home. It was somebody's place
of worship. So, our story begins not
with George Washington crossing the
Delaware, but with the people who lived
in this land. And that's what visitors
get when they come to the Clark House
and what we hope they'll get in our
future visitors center.
>> And and we have had at the meeting some
ancestors from the Clark family that
have come by to to visit us. So, yeah,
>> it's we saw that they came by a couple
weeks ago or a month or so ago. They
were awesome.
>> Yeah.
Well, thank you very much. I really
enjoyed that presentation. I can't wait
to see
um what all that happens and and that
people can know more and more about what what happened here.
>> Plus, it's fun to say pomologist.
[laughter]
>> Yeah. New f everybody's new favorite
word, pomologist.
» Thank you very much. Thank you for your
time.
>> I wanted to add just one thing quickly.
Um, I wrote a brief memo that basically
just summarized like, "Hey, you guys are
coming in." Um, but
wanted to emphasize the importance of
this is a
heavily designated property. It's a
state park. It's a It's listed on the
state and national register. It's a
national historic landmark. It's locally
designated. So there's a lot of eyes on
this and p public and private
partnerships, volunteer organizations
working together for for this important
stewardship project. I'm very excited
and interested in the controlled burn. I
think that will be very educational and
helpful the community for how important
that is to the environment and how it
can benefit
>> the ecology and the
>> bio systems. Yeah. Um, I'm excited for
the nerdy history apples and maybe
potentially in the future nerdy history
cider, but we'll see. Got got to grow
those trees first. Um, but I also want
to point out the importance of this
project going forward and the parties
involved on it here at the state and the
local level. Um because we do currently
have a federal administration that is
trying to update the section 106
regulations to roll them back to not
respect
anything that is essentially not the
built environment. So it's going to
impact cultural landscapes. So to have
this in place and to have us all working
together on this is significant and
important. And I like that we're
doing this together and moving forward.
I think. Yeah, you're here. Everyone is
uh like mind with you. So,
>> yes.
>> Yeah.
>> All right. Thank you guys.
>> Thank you.
Sarah, for those remarks.
Perfect. Thank you.
[laughter]
» Up next,
concept review for 57 Birch Avenue.
uh on technology here for the laptop.
Should I just plug it in here or do we have a thumb drive we can provide?
» We also have old school handouts if this
does not work.
You want
Okay.
We have a problem with my law firms over
active security on his videos. Not we
could hand these out.
» Yep. These are all handouts.
» Yep.
>> I apologize to Shirley because she's not
going to have
Hold on, folks. We may have the
technology solved here.
All right. Thank you very much and I
apologize for our technical
difficulties. Uh my name is Kevin Moore
with the firm of Stevens and Lee and I
represent our applicant Gray 35 LLC
which is owned by John Shadid and Yuma
Shaded. They live in Lebanon, as in the
country, not the township. So, they
could not be here this evening. Um, they
purchased the property on October 30th,
2025, and the property is 57 Birch
Avenue. It's block 6902, lot 24 on the
municipality tax map. It's approximately
5,999
square feet in area. It's in the R9
zoning district of the old township.
[snorts] It's in the Weather Witherspoon
Jackson Historic District, which is why
we're here this evening. The house in
its existing condition now is 2,183
square ft. It has two stories plus a
finished attic. It had three units on
the property record card, but there's
only it's only zoned for single family
will be appearing before the zoning
board. Um and uh it when my clients
purchased the property had an illegal
occupancy of about 30 people that it is
now empty and they have uh it was in
terrible condition uh and they have uh
removed much of the damaged and
dilapidated interior
uh and we're seeking concept review. And
I just want to clarify before Jason Viko
our architect uh goes into this in
detail. This is a rehabilitation and
investment project. There's no no change
whatever whatsoever proposed to the
building footprint. No change to the
building envelope. There's some minor
demolition and inind reconstruction of a
very severely damaged rear wall. And the
plan is to refurbish the exterior as
we'll show you this evening and
refurbish the interior with three
apartment units. I have two
professionals presenting this evening.
And the first is Jason Elviko, our
project architect, and then uh James
Shimalik, our uh civil engineer, who
will provide some conceptual landscaping
review. With that, I'd like to turn it
over to Jason.
» You're on, Jason.
>> I'm good.
>> Yeah, go.
>> Um I'd like to do this in a couple
different parts. if it's okay with the
board. I'd like to go through my notes
that respond to the project as an
overall project and the um board's
response letter, then go through the
plans of what we're proposing, then go
through two different sets of
photographs. One of the exterior
building and then one of the interior
before the building was gutted, if
that's okay. Um, starting with the
notes, um, as Kevin said, this overall
project approach is a rehabilitation and
reinvestment to the existing building.
Uh, we want to retain existing structure
rather than replace it, correct unsafe
and inappropriate previous alterations,
repair deteriorated structural and
building envelope conditions, improve
the exterior appearance and residential
character, convert the property into
three safe code compliant residential
units, maintain existing overall scale,
massing and relationship to Birch
Avenue. Um staff has already indicated
that the project as a whole does not appear to pose a significant
impact to the property or surrounding
Witherspoon Jackson historic district.
Um now the historical context important
distinction between the history of the
property and the building that currently
exists. Uh the 1927 Sanbour map shows an
earlier woodframe duplex at the
property. Uh earlier the structure was
demolished by approximately 1956.
Uh current building was constructed by
the mid 1960s. Existing building is
therefore not the early 20th century
duplex formally located on the property.
The current building represents a later
period in the evolution of Witherspoon
Jackson neighborhood. Witherspoon
Jackson significant extends beyond the
individual architectural styles and
includes its social, cultural, and
residential history. Um we read through
Adam Welch's the Witherspoon Jackson
neighborhood how one community changed
Princeton. Uh it reinforces the
importance of viewing the district as an
evolving community and neighborhood.
Now the existing building construction,
the main portion of the existing
building is wood frame construction with
a brick exterior. Uh the rear portion
which was an addition at a later date is
a m is a masonry construction with a
brick exterior. Um the staff's
memorandum questioned whether the
building was masonry or framed
construction and express willingness to
review existing conditions in the field.
Uh we're going to coordinate on-site
review with staff if necessary. And I'll
get to that a little later on. Um the
existing previous alterations. The
property was previously used illegally
for multiple apartment units. Illegal
rear stair was constructed to provide
access to the basement apartment areas.
Rear stair construction undermine
existing footing. The existing building
has undergone numerous alterations over
time. The current project will remove or
correct inappropriate and unsafe
conditions. The existing conditions
should not automatically assume to
represent historical significant
conditions.
Uh in our proposal, we propose to uh
treat the exterior brick with a a white
wash, but that's more of a generalized
term. Um you know, it's going to help us
repair deteriorated brick as required.
We're going to repoint the masonry where
necessary. It's going to help clean
existing brick prior application of any
finish. Um we're not going to use a
conventional exterior latex paint. I
think that's an important note. Um
proposed finish to be a breathable and m
and masonry compatible. Uh the potential
systems we're going to propose is either
a lime wash, a mineral-based masonry
coating. Um both are similar uh and
breathable masonry treatments. Um the
finish is intended to visually unify the
existing repairs, differing brick
conditions and previous alterations.
Um we are willing to do a field mockup
if necessary so it could be reviewed
before the whole building gets that
treatment. Um the staff's principal
concern about the treatment was the
previously unpainted brick and potential
long-term masonry impacts. Um also part
of the project is some window
modifications. Uh selectively adjust
second floor window locations, improve
relationship between first and second
floor openings. Um that's going to help
us better establish a vertical
alignment, a rhythm, a proportion, and
an architectural organization. um
maintain overall building height,
building massing, uh roof configuration
and residential scale and character. Uh
the changes are intended as as the
changes are in intended as limit facade
improvements rather than a wholesale
redesign. Um the Princeton Witherspoon
Jack Jackson district documentation
recognizes the vernacular and altered
nature of the much of the neighborhood's
building stock and supports reasonable
flexibility in the rehabilitation.
Uh we're also proposing some front
entrance upgrades. Um we want to
reconstruct and improve the existing
front stoop, provide a modest roof over
the primary entrance for protection from
the weather. Uh that roof will contain a
standing seam metal roof. Uh it's going
to improve the weather protection at the
entrance, provide clear entrance
hierarchy. Uh it's going to add some
architectural interest and curb appeal.
Uh the pent roof remains subordinate to
the principal building and proposed as
compatible new element rather than
attempted to recreate an undocumented
historic historical feature being a
front porch.
Um it was um suggested in the letter of
possibly putting back a front porch that
may have been there. Um a staff notes
existing brick condition suggests that a
full width porch may have existed. Uh we
acknowledge the importance of the front
porches with proportions to the Wizman
Jackson neighborhood. No historic
photograph or drawing has currently been
identified showing the porch. Um the
existing information does not establish
the following exact width, depth, roof
form or pitch, roof material, column
number or spacing, column design,
railing, stair configuration, trim or
decorative details, and whether the
porch was open or enclosed. Uh there's
currently brick ghosting may establish
that the architectural element existed
but does not provide suff sufficient
information to accurately reconstruct
this complete configuration.
Um the secretary of the interior
standards caution against conjectural
reconstruction and creation of a false
sense of historical development. Any
reconstruction of a missing feature
should be supported by adequate physical
or documentary evidence. um continue
with proposed pent roof unless
sufficient documentation supporting an
accurate porch reconstructed is
identified. That's our current approach.
Um there's also a practical and economic
impact of a full porch if one were to go
back. Uh there's three existing gas
meters located on the front face of the
building. Um the porch would have to
have those relocated to a a new
location. Um the associate work may
include utility company coordination,
new gas service piping, new building
penetrations, removal of gas piping,
exterior repairs and site work. It uh
it's going to add significant
construction cost to the project. The e
the economic impact should be considered
secondary to the preservation concern
regarding undocumented reconstruction.
Um then we have economic sustainability
and preservation. Um, the long-term
preservation requires buildings to
remain occupied, useful, maintained, and
economically viable. The three-unit residential use provides
a viable long-term use for the property.
provides funding and
incentive to correct existing structural
and and envelope deficiencies.
Rehabilitation preserves the existing
building rather than replacing it.
Improvements contribute to overall
condition and appearance of the
streetscape. Preservation goals should
be balanced with reasonable adaptive
rehabilitation and long-term economic
sustainability.
>> Let's go to the picture.
>> Yep. If I can go through the pictures
real quick.
>> Um I'll start with the exterior.
There should be that should be the one
that just says photos, not exterior.
Uh example packet
that one. Yep.
That's it.
So, the the first picture, photo one,
this is a front elevation of the entry.
Um, you can see between the windows
there appears to be some patching or
replacement of brick at one time. It
also shows the stoop to the left and the
three gas meters currently there. Um,
photo two shows pretty much uh the upper
facade and the same uh brick patching in
the middle. It also shows that the
middle windows currently are not
aligned. The second floor middle windows
kick slightly to the right from the
lower window. Um the two to the right
are aligned over top of each other. The
middle alignment is something that we're
proposing to fix.
Um photo three is just another example
of the left side of the patching in the
middle between the windows and the two
window alignments.
Photo five shows the existing condition
of the front stoop. Um the left side is
a is a mixture of brick and masonry.
Um photo six shows a rear entry that was
created at some time without permit. Um
it started to undermine the footing
which can be seen in a couple pictures
coming up. Uh photos seven and eight
just further show that rear entry. Uh,
photo eight, if you look towards the
left, that's the footing that's sticking
out, hovering kind of in the air.
Um, photo nine
shows where the mortar uh is kind of
falling out from previous repairs. U,
one of our proposed objectives is to
repoint the brick and fix it up.
Photo 10 is is a side picture showing
the similar U mortar where it's coming
out from a previous repair. It also
shows the mix of both brick and block
construction.
And then photo 11 and 12 are from the
opposite side of the front porch where
the um exterior parch has completely
come off. And at one time there was
numerous materials stuck in there to
infill it.
Uh the next page shows some context
along Birch Avenue. Uh the first picture
is directly across the street. The
structure to the right is a white
horizontal sided house. The structure to
the left is a masonry uh with white
parch structure. Um Birch Avenue 2
picture is further down the street. I
believe that's a a a small church that
has a masonry white exterior.
And then Birch Avenue 3 picture is just
another picture showing that there's um
quite a bit of white exterior structures
along the street.
These last two photos I think are the
most important. Um this is an example of
the exterior treatment that we would
like to do to the current brick. uh it's
going to be more of a lime wash or
mineral wash. Um it does not completely
get rid of the look of the red brick.
is still allowed to peek
through in certain areas. Uh it is
consistent with other structures
throughout Princeton. Um and it's
mindful to the existing red brick
without completely covering up like a
latex paint would. Um we are more than
willing to do a mockup on site in a
small area so the board can take a look
and get approval if necessary.
>> Cool.
Um, the next set of photos is going to
be interior photos.
I'll go through these pretty quick.
These just show the conditions of what
was there before our clients purchased
the building. Um, to Kevin's point,
there was what, 30 units?
>> Yeah, there was roughly 30 apartment
units in this 2 and a half story
structure. Um, they had people in units
in the basement with an unfinished
basement and a dirt floor. Um, photos
one and two show a typical kitchen and
sleeping area that was there before. Um,
photos three is another area of the
kitchen and living. Um, photo four is is
a shower. Um,
photo five is another shot of a
bathroom. And then photo six, believe it
or not, that was how people were that
photo six, there was units down there
with that basement as it as it is in
that picture.
And they were getting to that basement
unit from that stair in the back.
Um, photos seven and eight just show
typical living areas and sleeping areas
prior to the um, demolition. And then
nine and 10 are similar pictures.
Now, I'd like to walk through the plans
real quick.
» Uh, top one. Y.
» So, the first page is a colored
>> question. Did Did you note that there
were 30 units in this house?
>> Did we know
>> 30 30 individuals of sleeping areas?
>> Our client, you know, purchased the
property. As I said, they're they live
over they they have visited Princeton.
They hope to actually retire to
Princeton, not in this house, but uh and
their son goes to Ruters. Uh but uh they
were unaware of the situation when they
purchased it. It obviously wasn't listed
that way, but when they took title, they
saw and determined the situation and
corrected it.
>> Thank you.
>> And it's for cl clarity, it's empty now.
Thank you.
>> So, just to walk through the drawings
real quick, the first page is color
codes the units. Um, there's three units
proposed. On the left image is the first
floor plan. The blue the blue unit is on
the second and third floor in the second
floor and attic. Um, so the first at the
you come into a first entry vestibule
takes you up to the second floor and
attic space. The yellow space is a unit
in the front and the pink space is a
unit in the back.
» Question before you move on, please. Um,
>> which color depicts existing conditions?
>> Section.
>> Which color shows us what is existing
now?
>> It's going to be the next page.
>> I see.
>> Yeah. The next page.
>> The next page. A1- Z00. The image on the
left is a demolition plan which shows it
how it sits now. The red is what's going
to be removed. Um if you notice at the
top of that demolition plan, that back
area is being completely removed because
that is the area where the foundation
wall and footing were undermined from
that rear stair. Um the image to the
right is a proposed floor plan for that
first floor. It's going to have the one
unit in the front with one bedroom
kitchenet and living space. The unit in
the in the back will also be a
onebedroom unit with kitchen living
space. And then that vest view up front
goes up to the second floor which is on
the next page sheet A1.10.
Again the image on the left is a
demolition plan which shows existing
conditions. The red being removed. The
image on the right is the plan for the
proposed apartment. Um this space is
this unit is going to be a two-bedroom
unit. This is the second floor which
contains a living space, a bedroom and a
kitchenet. Um sheet A-1.20 20 shows the
attic level that's going to contain an
additional bathroom and bedroom for that
unit and the image to the left is the uh
existing adding plan with the red which is what is being removed.
Uh moving on to the next sheet a-2.0
these are the proposed elevations. Um
the elevation in the top left corner
front elevation proposed um shows the
existing porch with new pent roof above.
Uh we lined up the middle two windows
for more of a symmetrical architectural
look. Uh the two windows to the right
were already there and lined up. We are
slightly increasing the size of the
windows to meet current egress
standards. Um the image to the right is
the right elevation uh from the right
side. Um same thing we're increasing the
windows slightly to meet uh current
egress standards. The image on the
bottom left is a rendering of what the
color scheme will look like. Um there is
no proposed increase in square footage.
There is no proposed uh additions that
will be exceeding the existing
footprint. Um the image, the rendering
image shows more of a pure white facade.
You know, it's hard to get technology to
do what you want sometimes, but the
pictures in that packet, the back is
more what it's going to look like with
the line wash or mineral wash.
Um, the next sheet, A-210,
shows the rear elevation. That is the
area that we are rebuilding to the
existing footprint just to um because
we're going to have to take it down to
redo the foundation footing. So that
back wall is is new, but it's within the
existing footprint. Uh the next shot on
the right, the left side elevation, um
just shows it from the left.
Um and that's it.
>> Hi Sharon,
I'm on Zoom. Um can I call you back?
Okay.
>> Having trouble hearing
Sarah, do you have um
some comments to share?
>> Yes, I think um the applicant kind of
covered a lot of it. Um
generally there's there's no changes
currently proposed to the building's
footprint. Uh there's a lot of what
mainly is happening is the rebuilding of
the the rear wall um repairs,
[clears throat] realignment of the
windows, uh and the remainder for lack
of a better term is kind of cosmetic. Uh
painting of the brick, repairing of the
facade and the addition of that pent
roof over the front door. Um as I said,
like willing to work with the applicant
in any on-site design meetings. Um
because based on what I could find,
which
the property tax records also said said
this was a brick building, also said it
was built in 1949, which I know is
incorrect. Um and that was a three-unit
building, so not the most reliable, but
the infill above the windows where what
was presumably a porch used to be made
it look more like brick than brick
veneer, but I could be wrong. Um
and yes, so that that being my main
concern is ensuring we're treating the
brick facade correctly. We're not
painting it with the wrong material and
that the whatever changes we're making
to the facade with a pent roof, all of
that is kind of taken appropriately. But
by and large, I the the project seems to
not have a significant impact on the
district.
By and large, the project as currently
proposed doesn't doesn't appear to have
a large impact on the district.
I mean, kind of what we're looking for
your feedback on is we [snorts] would
really like to do the lime wash
and
realign the windows. And we'd like to
get your feedback on that so that now
and because after this we'd obviously
apply to the zoning board and then it'll
be given you know referred to you
formally for your formal recommendation.
So we're [snorts] really here tonight
looking for guidance on that.
>> I'm sorry.
>> Oh okay. We'll give you the conceptual
landscaping
uh presentation as well.
>> Sure. Uh good evening everyone. Jim
Kamalac, Kencho resources uh project
engineer and we did submit a site plan
on a survey just showing as you can see
here the limits of the existing
structure which is not changing and the
main takeaway here um is the fact that
in the prior photos you saw that there's
absolutely no landscaping bare
foundation um trees that once existed
including street trees that have been
removed. Okay. And we provided uh what
we feel is an authentic and will be an
ultimately a very nice upgrade to that
frontage landscaping um that'll satisfy
uh several particular things. One, as
you can see, we're adding a street tree.
Um one that formerly existed, I believe
it was a uh an evergreen previously, but
we're going to add a street tree there
to replace that. Two other small um
trees in the front yard. We'll maintain
an existing square uh 600 square foot
lawn area that can be used for open open
space and a play area for example. We're
also providing planting beds and then um
with all of this native landscaping
which we have incorporated with
pollinators. Um it also includes
foundation plantings that will
adequately screen the foundation and
we're sharpening up uh the walkway from
the driveway into that front entry. So
there'll be a clear path uh from the
walkway to that front entry. So we feel
as though there'll be an aesthetic
elevation here um from a landscaping
standpoint uh and from a native material
standpoint that'll complement the facade
treatments that were discussed.
» That concludes our presentation.
>> Thank you.
>> Comments from commission members.
>> Um I have a question.
So, there's an
enormous amount of utilities on the
front of this building. There's like the
gas meters, three gas meters. There's
like electrical panels. There's huge
cables running up and down the sides.
Um, there's a whole lot going on there.
Um, is that going to be removed or
moved?
>> Well, I I believe the the satellite
dishes will be removed. Yeah,
>> the gas the gas meters are most likely
going to stay in the location they're
in. Uh we're going to lean on the
landscaping to kind of screen those from
the street.
>> Okay.
>> And make it more uh sightful.
Um same thing with the electrical
panels. I mean, that's I don't think we
planned on moving any of those
utilities.
» Where's the electrical panel?
» Jason asking for the electric I believe
there
>> photo is that
>> I believe it's on the one side
here.
» I'm not showing it on my photos.
Freda, your questions, your thoughts?
>> Um, well, just thoughts.
That's weird.
Just thoughts on the lime washing. Um, I
mean, lime washing is a historic
treatment, so I I don't see any reason
for not using it. In fact, I think it'll
improve that red brick. Um,
and I even though the windows are, you
know, very very visible, I think
aligning them makes sense.
That's pretty much my opinion on that.
>> And the lime wash is going to
It's historical treatment. It's also
going to help us kind of hide some
imperfections.
>> Yeah.
>> And I think it's important that we, you
know, do move forward a mockup to make
sure that it's
>> Yeah.
>> You know, at some point when we get to
that stage, we'd like to do a mockup to
get approval.
>> Yeah. Because you never know how much
>> Yep.
>> it'll absorb. So, yeah, makes sense.
>> Thank you, Shirley.
>> Yes. Um, can you hear me?
>> Yes. Um, I I may have missed the
explanation as to why they didn't keep
it a brick. Um, because this house
really doesn't doesn't look like the
houses in this community. And when you
said something about a porch, this is
not a porch. Um, our houses had porches
and there were reasons for those porches
for families who went to work and came
back to relax before they worked for
their family. Um, so I just wanted to
know why you couldn't keep the bricks
and and restore the brick building
instead of putting this building up that
does not comply with the little Jackson
community.
>> Oh, we're not we're keep it's exact
surely it's the same building. We're
just limewashing the existing brick.
>> The other thing is um are the people who
will be moving in are they owners of the
house or are they renters? rent. It'll
be three apartment units.
» You can hear us.
>> Thank you.
» So, my comments are um
that it cleans it up.
Um
the form of the building is probably its
most significant
attribute to the street.
I I think it wasn't a uh high
material, high quality
structure, exterior finish to begin
with. Um it was probably on the rebound
of whatever the building was lost,
either a new investor or someone who had
to rebuild something after after what
happened. So, I think it's just a
straightforward, honest kind of building
that we're trying to straighten up some.
Um,
I think it's unfortunate that um the
electric or the gas meters caused that
kind of trouble for not having a porch.
However, I would also say that this
building just didn't have a porch. it
just
uh it would be a nice feature if it
could be added, but it's not like we're
trying to get back something that had
been taken away.
>> Mhm. Um I understand the importance um
surely of the um of the nature of the
porches in this neighborhood that's been
brought up many many times over the
years and it has a real social compound
component to it but it I don't think it
just ever existed on this building and I
think trying to apply one to it given
the challenges
>> and I think from your opening statement
that you did look at that
>> and I appreciate that. Um,
getting the windows a little more uh
relatable to each other, I guess that's
the way to say it, or to get the
geometry looking neat. I think it's a
plus. I think the shed over the uh front
doors
is fine. Um, I don't really see much
else to recommend or suggest. I I think it's
a nice straightforward project. Um,
commission members, if I'm going on too
far and you have a different thought,
please say so.
» So, these are um just comments and
recommendations. We don't take any
action. Um, I hope that that's useful.
>> Very useful.
>> Um, I think it's always nice to see
investment in projects, buildings that
may have gotten away from an owner, a
new owner trying to to do things as
good.
Sarah, from a staff point of view, is
there anything else we need on this?
» Okay.
>> Nope, nothing on my end. It's I mean,
it's concept review, so it's
>> your guys feedback, my feedback, and we
wait for the application from there.
>> Yep.
>> Great.
>> Come back and see us.
>> Thank you so much. Thank you.
>> Very helpful.
>> Thank you,
» gentlemen. And I just want to say for
somebody who um lives on Birch Avenue,
uh well done.
We it it's a plus. It is well done and
it it's going to replace what during my
lifetime is something that I don't think
really lends itself to the to the to the
streetscape at all. So this really is
mimicking more of what is now in Birch
Avenue. And I don't think you left the
history at all. I think you enhanced it.
So well done.
>> Thank you. Thank you.
Sarah, I see that we have um a couple
other items before um the state historic
markers or do you want to go to that and
come back?
» It looks like um public comment, staff
report, member report. You
>> Well, I mean, we have public comment,
but I think Kip is the public at this
point. Um, [laughter]
I outside of the design guidelines, I
don't have anything additional to
report.
>> All right, we'll come back to that in a
minute. Kip, do you want to come on up
and tell us tell us the stuff you know?
So, this shouldn't take very long, I
hope. Um,
I've got the text for you to review
>> signs.
[clears throat]
» Since this is being recorded, I think
you need to get closer to the microphone
just so we can hear you, but for the
recording purposes. Oh, yeah.
>> Thank you.
Is that what this is?
» So, um, a lot of people have been kind
of confused about how we even got
started on this. Um, the idea was to do
something for the 250th
and Elizabeth thought that that this
would be a really great idea. I don't
think that the HPC really focused on it
very much. So, uh I was hoping to shovel
it off on someone else, but that didn't
work. [laughter]
So, um it's a very simple uh sign that
is used standard. Nothing unusual about
it. Um you're allowed 50 um characters
in the title and uh 615 in the text.
So, uh, it's been hard to come up with a
blurb that that really worked. So, the
one that we've been using as a base is
the one really that David thought was
the best one. And then, uh, Will had
some ideas. And so, it's it's sort of,
uh, evolved. Uh, but the basic idea is
that it's got to be under 615 characters
no matter what.
Uh, also the sign is along the uh,
Quaker Bridge Road, not at the
battlefield per se. So that there's got
to be something in the sign that
indicates to people that you're not at
the battlefield. Otherwise, people are
going to turn into the tow uh the toe
path parking lot and think they're at
the battlefield.
So, um,
let me just, uh, read it really quick
and then I think you can vote on it so
that somebody's voted on it anyway. And
then Mark Texel maintains the
prerogative of still making changes. So,
we're not the end of the line.
So, this is this is a state project
and that's why that's why council is not
it's not necessary for council to get
that involved in the weeds. Um they
don't know that much about the battle
anyway and uh the state is going to be
trumping everything. So,
>> very good.
>> You know, this this is the best we can
do with it and then the state will do
whatever they're the state is going to
do.
So, um, along this road, General George
Washington and the Continental Army
approached Princeton on January 3rd,
1777.
Slipping away from Trenton, Continental
forces had marched overnight along
freezing back roads to surprise the
British garrison at Princeton. Unaware
of the approaching army, the British
force from Princeton was marching south
towards Trenton.
Uh now I just said towards and ra and
rather than sing I have to look at that
again whether it should be single or or
you know toward or tors. Uh leaving only
a contingency behind. As fighting broke
out both armies rushed onto the farms of
Quaker brothers Thomas and William Clark
while Continental General Hugh M. Mercer
was mortally wounded. The battle was a
critical turning point for the patriots.
So that's it. Um, and no, it's not a
poem. It's not supposed to be poetical.
It's supposed to provide information in
as tightly as as one can and make it as
interesting as one can. So, um, you
know, we wanted to include something in
there about the u freezing back roads.
That was something that kept getting
knocked out and put back in because it creates the environment of of what
that day was like as people are looking
at the sign.
So the idea is if you look at your
chart, your diagram,
if you're coming from uh does everybody
have a copy? Okay. as you're coming from
the big box shopping center and crossing
the canal and that little bridge and
then uh you are going along the canal
and making a turn at the toe path uh
park. So the first of all the criteria
for this location had to be stateowned
property. That was the number one
criteria. It couldn't be anything else.
Um
and of course the state had to bless the
idea of it and and what the state has
final say. So uh you know some people
may say well why did it happen this way?
You know why wasn't the Princeton
Battlefield Society more involved? All
these different things. Well it's just
the way it it worked because the uh
state was in charge of the program and
if you wanted to participate you had to
apply to the state.
Uh the the state incidentally uh you
know they gave me a pretty rough time.
They wanted a lot of um original
citations
to demonstrate that the battle of
Princeton had happened and you know
there's very little original material.
So uh I almost got knocked out of the
ballpark because of that. They were not
satisfied.
Now, you know, the Battle of Princeton
was a big thing and very and a long time
ago. Um, there are a lot of small
historic houses and that kind of thing
around and people can document that
fairly well, but it's very hard to
document the Battle of Princeton. So,
um, and incidentally, um, I think we
paid about $4 million for the property
from the institute.
Um, I've been involved now in two other
acquisitions at Mammoth. We just closed
two weeks ago on a property
uh in roughly the same size. Let's say
$15 million is how much the state had to
pay for that.
>> Wow.
>> So uh you know this and you know it was
nip and tuck as to whether or not we w
were going to be successful and what the
state does with the property remains to
be seen and I don't know. I'm sure
that'll be a matter of great discussion.
And when you talk about orchards, for
instance, it sounds very nice to put it
in an orchard because there were
orchards all over the place, but there
was no orchard there at the time. Now,
later on in the 1940s,
the seller grew up on an orchard that
was right there. The seller was actually
the original the owner from the 1940s.
Uh, and his parents came along and
bought the milk farm, and that's what it
was at the time, and put an orchard into
it. They thought they could make a life
that way and and you know orchard
remnants still remain and they still
have a store there. It's a pie. They
sell pies and uh so the parents are gone
and uh Mr. Junko waited until his mother
died before he embarked on this thing. I
don't think she would have been very
happy with him. He never was into the
American Revolution. It was just a pain
in the butt as a kid. He just didn't
respect it at all. And then his parents
came up with this this idea of selling
pies and his mother came up with special
recipes. And so people going along Route
33 to the shore would stop and buy a pie
coming and going. And they're still
struggling along. You would think that
they would have given up a long time ago
and said, "Well, you know, this business
doesn't have any real future." But
they're still at it. So, uh, and they're
not making a lot of money on this
because they gave everything that they
were entitled to to the brother Junko,
Mr. Junko, the son, and he's the one
making the money, not not the rest of
the family. So, that's just a
parenthetical comment. So, um, on this
chart, you can see, uh, where the cars
are parked. The, uh, tow path is over on
the, uh, right side there, the east
side. and you see this little star and
that's where we propose to put the uh
the sign. So, as you come around the
curve, you will see the sign. Um if
somebody parks right in front of it, you
know, we had there's some jostling about
how to avoid that. So, it's moved a
little bit uh to the left towards Stony
Brook uh to try to avoid people parking
right in front of it. Um what if there
are a lot of weeds growing up around it?
Well, it's going to be the
responsibility of the state to maintain
the the sign. Um, but uh the locals are
supposed to report problems. So, you
know, if the battlefield uh society
sees, you know, it's not being well
taken care of, they need to report that
or any vandalism. Now, it would be nice
to put a little circle of something
around it so people don't actually put
the front of their car right in front of
it, but that's getting too complicated.
So, you know, I think maybe the garden
society might come along later and say,
"Well, we could make that a little
better because those weeds are not very
good." And that's what will happen. I'm
sure there'll be some weeds and maybe um
you know, gravel. There are no
provisions for designing the pad around
the the marker and maybe we can prevail
upon them. The the way this is going to
work is first of all, we have to have
some people that are going to take
responsibility for getting the sign off
the truck. That's not that easy. Nobody
wants to take responsibility for that.
Uh and then there are people with bad
backs and all this kind of stuff. So,
right now, we don't actually have it
figured out totally. We're just saying
parks maintenance is going to pull it
off the truck or, you know, sometimes
the truck driver will help and sometimes
they won't. So, it's going to go into
some kind of maintenance facility
associated with parks. Uh, I was hoping
to put it in the uh in that extra
building at the Clark House, but there's
it's full of stuff already. So, but that
would be the ideal place for it because
that wouldn't be very far away and we
kind of keep an eye on it. I I hope it
doesn't take forever to get the thing uh
installed. That's another thing.
Politically, you know, we're going to
have to be after the maintenance folks
to get it, and that's Mark Texel and his
capabilities to get it installed.
And you know, there some of the parks
don't have superintendent. I'm not quite
clear on where Washington's Crossing is
right now in terms of having a
superintendent.
Um you know, Will is it at Princess
Battlefield. there was no
superintendent.
So, you know, it's very murky as to how
to make all this work. And it's going to
take I mean, I don't imagine walking
away from it. I imagine, you know,
hanging in there until it's actually in
the ground. And then I'm hoping that we
will have some kind of a uh a
celebration the way we did at the
battlefield.
um you know, invite all the monkeys and
have um some speeches and uh you know,
some refreshments and just say we did a
good job and this is wonderful kind of
stuff. So, um I think that'll that'll
work out very nicely. Um
and and then you know the the the the
tow path parking lot is taken care of by
parks maintenance not very well and you
know it's got this kind of ugly uh guard
rail. Um they did recently restore the
bridge over Stony Brook. I doubt if it
was really a restoration but it looks
nice. Uh so uh you know that's there and
uh and people can walk on this little
pathway from the toe path parking lot to
um the Stony Brook and look over the
bridge and into the water.
>> So that's very nice.
>> That's pretty much it. Yeah, it's very
simple and straightforward
and uh it's just a matter of, you know,
keeping the pressure up to make sure
this thing gets
>> Well, I think you've been doing a good
job of that and um I appreciate it. I
think the way you've got it edited right
now, it reads beautifully. It's
evocative of the day. You get a real
picture of what's going on and you got
within the word count or the letter
count, which is not easy.
>> Thank you. Well, the the state has um
seven um signs that they're responsible
for. Anybody could could apply for a
sign.
>> So, you know, HPC applied for the sign.
The state did not apply for the sign.
The council did not apply for the sign.
That was something that HPC did. And I
think it was fully within the
responsibilities and authority of the
HPC to to make that application. And
then um so now, you know, we're kind of
in a stack because the state said,
"Well, uh since, you know, you have to
have our okay because it's on state
property and we're going to have to work
it out with maintenance, we'll kind of
take it over and and add it to our
list." So, they have a gal now in charge
of the list. So, you know, I'm trying
not to get buried in that thing because
I want to make sure that we get this
thing done and have a nice 250th
acknowledgement next year. So, um so
that's that's the whole deal.
>> Very good.
>> And then, um maybe Sarah, could you pass
this around? This is the u
that's what the uh the exhibit looks
like.
>> And it was at the library. And Leighton,
I think, was very concerned that, oh
gee, the library is, you know, got
something going on and we're, you know,
we'll be behind because we're not doing
ours until next year. But I don't know
what was going on with the library, but
they stuck it in a corner. It wasn't
really noticeable. It wasn't pleasant to
go through it from my point of view.
Mhm.
>> And it's a rather odd exhibit because um
each panel is is a little bio, but it's
on people that are not commonly known
and and it's not as though there's a
little bio like Hugh Mercer, you know,
some of the famous people that kids
could learn more about. These are on
fairly unknown people. Now, that's not
to say that they shouldn't be known. I
mean they made a contribution at the
time and some of them were slaves which
is pretty exciting. Um, but the names
weren't known and I didn't find when I
went through the panels that I
they took it in really, you know, I I it
didn't really it wasn't that meaningful
to me for some reason,
>> which for would be just
>> but it is what it is,
>> you know. Yeah.
>> So, I think that to add to that, um, if
we had some handouts, which the library
didn't have, have some handouts on
people from Princeton who were involved
in the Battle of Princeton who are names
>> uh, including Orange who was an
African-American in the battle and um,
uh, there are a couple of other there
are several African-Americans in the
battle. U, so I think we could have at
least one handout on either on each one.
If we don't have enough material, then
we could have one that clusters them
together. And I think I could handle
doing the those handouts, uh, Leon, but they would be on people rather than
places.
>> Mhm.
>> So, you know, they're not not intended
to be a map or, uh, you know, explain
the battle. That's for the battlefield
to do. This is just a sort of an
augmentation to try to get a little
spirit going in the community. And there
isn't much spirit on the 250th
and it's not just in Princeton, it's
everywhere.
>> I was going to say it's it's it's a very
different event from the 200 that you
and I remember and it just I was hoping
it would actually trigger more interest
in history and more interest in historic
preservation as it did 50 years ago. Um,
but it's not to say that it's completely
lost and that Princeton has another
chance to
>> and it's up it's up to us and and um,
you know, we can give this good
promotion. Um, you know, I' I've done a
lot of promotion over time. So, I mean,
I can certainly and I think we should
approach the schools and see if they
can't get groups of kids over.
>> Now, one of the logistics is, you know,
are we going to have a host there when
people go through how to handle that?
and I'd like to get the mayor's opinion
about, you know, what he might envision.
Um, and we have to lay it out, you know,
so and we have to put it up ourselves.
So, uh, I'm a little concerned about
that because I'm not, you know, it
arrives in a big truck and you have to
kind of put it up and you don't know
what it's going to be like from the last
person who used it. So, um, you know, I
have to discuss that a little bit. that uh brochure. We only have that one.
Yeah.
>> We don't have, you know, and I'm going
to ask them, you know, are there is
there a stack we could put in the
library? Uh which would be a little bit
odd since they had their own show at one
point, but they really didn't make a lot
of it. They didn't tie it into a
lecture, which we could do. We could
have a lecture right here in the
community room.
>> Yeah.
>> If we wanted to. Um we could have Will
maybe I've already asked Will to do
something in Pennsylvania. He hasn't
acted overly enthused, but um you know
that's a possibility. And then um
there's a film uh that was shown at
Morvin a couple of years ago um of the
African-American community and how they
gathered around and learn more about the
participation of that community in the
battle or in in Princeton life. And we
could show that film at some point. I
think that might be a nice thing to do.
So, you know, we can use it as a
programming focus and do other things
around it, but we have that's the stuff
we have to discuss with the mayor and
the building maintenance because I don't
know how they handle uh opening the
building when it's not usually open and
you know, all those kinds of little
things have to be figured out. But, we
have plenty of time.
>> Yeah. So, maybe to wrap it up, what we
could do is the uh
>> I think Leighton had something to add
real quick.
>> Oh, sorry.
Yeah, Leighton, have you got some
comments?
>> Yeah, I I've got some comments. Yeah, I
think Kip, this is a great idea,
especially the marker. Uh, you mentioned
that this exhibit has been shown and was at the library. I think you also
said you didn't uh rank high where they
placed it at and how much attention they
paid to it. But um I I think before we
get too far down the road with a re uh
establishing and re another exhibit
bringing it back, I think that's
something that that really should come
before uh mayor and council.
>> I would be glad to give them a
presentation. Um again, I don't think
they've been overly enthused about the
250th. I understand that Michelle now is
coordinating that, which I didn't know
about before. So, um
you know, I certainly will do that and I need the um cooperation of the
building um maintenance person,
whoever's in charge of this building,
you know, to work with them on that. So,
>> well, those are all things
>> I think one one of the points is is
that, you know, we have like you
mentioned Morvin, we just had a
presentation from Princeton Battlefield,
>> right?
>> The library showed the exhibit. I think
the real question is is is it the
municipality's responsibility to really
lean into the 250th more than what we've
already done? And then I I'll just go a
little bit further and say this for
African-Americans.
Uh we know the uh importance of
African-Americans and Native American
Indians who fought in the revolution in
the war right here in Princeton. But we
just heard from four gentlemen who sat
up here for almost an hour said nothing
about African-Americans.
>> Right.
>> I'm glad you did mention it. But from my personal perspective and what I
know is that right now the 250th
like I think back to what is a slave uh
what you know what to the slave is the
4th of July. The frame is Frederick
Douglas speech. And right now most
people of color are not feeling very
happy about where we are 250 years
later.
>> I know.
>> So, you know, you want to give that some
thought, but but I would, you know,
invite you to come before mayor and
counsel and and present rather than be
here and making the assumption that we
are ready and willing and able and
really excited about the exhibit.
>> Yeah, I'll do that. And um you know I
think tying it in with a marker also is
another thing that's nice for the
community. As people drive in on Quaker
Road, they will see that sign. Many
people uh who don't really know where
the battlefield is, don't know what
happened there. And uh you know it's an evolving community. We have new
people moving in move people moving out.
There's you know always an evolution.
the kids in school are interested at
certain times and then not so much other
times. I think fourth grade is when we
got um our history lessons about New
Jersey history. So, I mean, I'll have to
coordinate with the school system and
see what they want to do.
So, um I I think it's a possibility of
getting some excitement about this going
and but I agree with you. I think that
we're all kind of down in the dumps
right now and and worried. Um maybe
after the the November election we'll
feel a little better. I hope. And uh and
then you know we'll we'll keep going
because we have to
» Sarah does this present do we are we
required to to do a vote on the um on
the what what is we need to be doing
business-wise? what we're trying to
figure out up here.
>> I don't think this was like a formal
application to my knowledge. I think
what KIP is looking for is
I guess an informal vote in our feedback
if we if the HBC approves this text.
I don't think it needs to be like a roll
call vote.
>> Okay. So, we can say that um the
consensus was if I'm speaking for
everybody that we we like the text the
way it is. We
>> Yeah. Can we vote on that? because then
I can tell the state, well, HBC voted on
it.
>> All right.
>> Okay.
>> Then if you need that, um,
>> I move that we approve the text as
written.
>> Thank you.
>> Second.
>> All in favor?
>> Did [clears throat] you hear me?
>> Yes.
I also want to say when I told you
that how how much of an advocate um Kip
is, I didn't know she was there. Now you
hear she is. and she also was one of the
persons who met um to make this a 20th
historic district. So, thank you very
much for that, Kip. Also, I work with um
the committees for Morvin Museum and
also the cemetery. I'm on the uh board
of the cemetery of Nassau Presbyterian
Church and I always give the history of
African-Americans and Native Americans
and we do talk about the uh slaves and
those who worked for the um
Revolutionary War.
» That's it.
>> Thank you, Shirley.
>> Thanks, Shirley. So, is this a All in
favor say I or is this a roll call?
>> I just All in favor say I.
>> All in favor?
I
>> I
>> opposed.
>> I
>> Thank you. Thank you.
>> And may I also thank say thank you to
the council. I'm not the council, the
historic preservation commission because
when I brought this up about this being
the 20th historic district, you gave us
so much
backbone and I want to thank those of
you who were on the count on the pres.
Oh god, I can't. This is part of my s
all of you who were on the commission
who helped make this the 20th historic
district. I want to thank you also.
>> Our pleasure.
>> Thank you, Shirley.
>> Thank you for understanding why I can't
talk. [laughter]
>> Thank you. [clears throat]
» All right. Um,
» I lost it.
>> Staff report. Anything more to report?
Motion to adjurnn.
>> I move to adjurnn.
>> Second.
>> All in favor?
>> Yes.
>> All right.
We are journed.
>> Thank you, Shirley. You're a trooper.
Welcome back.
>> And thank you all and thank you for
being with me through this journey.