[0:00] We would like to recognize Emma Snow who
has not arrived.
[0:05] » [laughter]
>> But, we will recognize her anyways and
[0:09] make sure she gets all this stuff and
hopefully when she
[0:11] » Do you want me to read some stuff first
and wait a bit?
[0:14] Should we wait?
>> Yeah, yeah, let's just Let's do that.
[0:17] » Yeah, sit down. And I'll I'll just read
all my boring stuff.
[0:21] You give me like the look when
All right, as indicated on the screen, a
[0:25] required public hearing will be held for
certain agenda items prior to council
[0:28] action. After each such item has been
presented, time to comment will be
[0:32] provided for all those who wish to
speak. For items that do not require
[0:35] public hearing, public comment will
still be taken following presentation of
[0:38] the items, but will be limited to 10
minutes.
[0:41] At this time, up to 50 minutes have been
set aside for an open public comment
[0:45] period which is intended to allow
comments on matters that do not appear
[0:48] on the agenda, but are limited to topics
regarding municipal business or within
[0:51] municipal council purview.
Persons who speak during this time to an
[0:54] item that is on the agenda will not
normally be afforded a second
[0:57] opportunity to speak during the comment
period period specific to that item.
[1:02] During any public comment period, each
speaker will generally be limited to 2
[1:05] minutes. Due to noticing requirements,
no formal action will be taken in this
[1:08] meeting on matters that do not appear on
the agenda.
[1:12] Now,
we here yet? Okay, we're
[1:16] Okay, we're going to do public comment
first then. Great. All right, so anyone
[1:21] who wants to do public comment is
welcome to come up. If you want to If
[1:23] you're on Zoom, use the raise hand
feature. And um we'll go between online
[1:27] and in-person comments, but come up now
if you are ready have any public comment
[1:31] and you need your name and your city of
residence.
[1:40] » My name is William Paul. I am a resident
of the city of Provo.
[1:44] I'm here with a concern about the flock
cameras that are pleth
[1:49] uh proliferating across the city.
In the recent Chathri versus United
[1:55] States Supreme Court decision 2 months
ago.
[1:58] This was ruled highly illegal.
Because we have a reasonable expectation
[2:04] in our privacy.
Now, if I were to do that and start
[2:09] following one of you around with a
camera, I would be charged with the
[2:12] crime.
Berkshire Drive, Lakewood Drive, 1060
[2:17] East, 2100 West, 3950 North, 1150 East.
These cameras are used not only by
[2:28] our officers to solve crimes, but to
commit crimes. We have people with that
[2:33] are victims of domestic violence,
stalking, public public public protected
[2:39] parties, public citizens, US senators
that are all being followed by these
[2:46] promises by these cameras.
The city cannot track them.
[2:52] But we have officers who do not
understand the very basics of the First
[2:57] Amendment. But that's of little
surprise.
[3:01] Our officers do not understand free
speech, nor do our school officials.
[3:06] They openly retaliate against it. Yes, I
name names.
[3:11] And that shouldn't surprise us because
we started this meeting with a prayer,
[3:15] which is also blatantly
unconstitutional.
[3:20] Thank you.
>> Thank you.
[3:22] Anyone else want to give public comment?
[3:30] We just need your name and your city of
residence.
[3:33] That's great.
>> Um My name is Emma Sorenson, residence
[3:38] in Provo. Um
I know you guys met a couple weeks ago
[3:41] about updating parks and sidewalks with
like certain ADA
[3:46] um updates. And I was just wondering if
and how
[3:50] there would be input from people with
disabilities on those things before they
[3:55] happen. Cuz sometimes
those kind of updates are things where
[4:00] able-bodied people just don't really
know that they don't know certain
[4:03] things. And I know there are certain ADA
standards and guidelines, but even
[4:08] sometimes those things are
left open to interpretation or there's
[4:12] like windows and you could go somewhere
in that thing. So, I was just wondering
[4:17] and if you guys have any say in that, if
that's something you guys could put in
[4:20] place before those steps happen. Um
yeah, I think that's basically
[4:25] » Okay. Thank you. Mayor, who should we
connect her with?
[4:30] Me. All right.
Thanks, Emma. So, go to staff and
[4:35] they'll get Oh, you already have her
contact info. Okay. She knows you. She's
[4:39] going to contact you.
Thank you.
[4:43] All right, any other public comment?
[4:49] All right, we are going to now hear from
Carla.
[4:53] » This is employee of the month.
>> It is. And Emma, I'm going to make you
[4:56] come up here. She already hates me for
this whole thing.
[5:00] » [laughter]
[5:08] » It is our pleasure to recognize Emma
Snow as our employee of the month. Emma
[5:13] is the library's day porter. She plays
an essential and essential role in
[5:16] keeping our building clean, welcoming,
and running smoothly during our busiest
[5:20] hours. She consistently delivers
high-quality work, takes ownership of
[5:24] her responsibilities, and can always be
counted on to follow through. She
[5:27] doesn't simply wait to be asked. She
sees what needs to be done, and she does
[5:30] it.
What truly sets her apart is the pride
[5:33] she takes in her work and the service
she provides to everyone who comes
[5:36] through our building. She regularly get
goes above and beyond helping us create
[5:40] a welcoming place for our staff and
visitors to spend time. Daily, she makes
[5:44] a meaningful contribution to the library
and the city. We are a better place
[5:47] because she is part of our team and we
are truly privileged to work alongside
[5:51] her. Congratulations on this
well-deserved recognition.
[6:01] We take pictures. Want to get picture
with your team, Carla? And we'll all
[6:05] stand up behind.
[6:47] Thank you. Congratulations.
[6:55] All right, we only have one other item
of business today, an ordinance
[6:59] regarding outdoor lighting standards.
This will be presented by Britain
[7:01] Johnson and he's our council intern
right now.
[7:10] » Okay, good evening, counselors. Um
yeah, this feels like my debut. I'm
[7:14] excited to go over this item.
Um so, uh today we're going to go over
[7:19] some dark sky updates to the city's
outdoor lighting code.
[7:23] Um
and
[7:25] uh some of the principles that were used
to
[7:29] uh make some of these updates uh is from
this document that um is co-published
[7:34] with the Illuminating Engineering
Society and Dark Sky International that
[7:38] um have put on these five principles for
responsible outdoor lighting.
[7:42] And to condense this even further,
it's basically about using the right
[7:46] kind of light and and controlling it to
be only where we want to see it, um
[7:51] which is not in the sky. And the aim
with some of these policy changes
[7:56] or proposals, I should say, um is to
reduce atmospheric light pollution in
[8:00] our city.
So, the first significant proposed
[8:03] change to our code is to require um a
cap on correlated color temperature,
[8:10] which is how warm or how cool light
looks visually. Um this will only apply
[8:14] to new developments and any replacements
or remodels. So, no existing uh
[8:20] properties or light fixtures. Um and the
cap, except for a few exceptions, is
[8:24] 3,000 K or less, which is that neutral
white there or warmer.
[8:29] Um and those longer wavelengths
um
[8:32] with the warmer lights um contribute
less to atmospheric light pollution.
[8:37] Secondly, is requiring full shielding
for all fixtures, and the same applies.
[8:41] Um this will not be retroactive. This
will only be for new developments,
[8:45] remodels, and full fixture replacements,
which I'll clarify even further later.
[8:50] So, fully shielded fixtures imply that
the light is fully recessed in the
[8:54] fixture, is directed downward, and that
none of the light escapes that's called
[8:59] the 90° plane. Um if you look in the
cutoff part of this graphic, um that's
[9:05] kind of the 90° is where the light is.
We don't want anything
[9:08] um going above that into the night sky.
Um and then lastly is a small change to
[9:13] our um off-premises electronic display
sign code to put it more uh
[9:20] or to align it better with our
on-premises electronic display sign code
[9:24] in title six of Provo City code. Um and
that caps the uh number of nits, which
[9:30] measures the surface brightness of a
sign, to 300 during nighttime hours um
[9:35] and 5,000 during daylight hours.
Um,
[9:39] another question that was, um,
that was asked during our our work
[9:44] meeting discussions on this topic was
how this would affect current residences
[9:48] and residential outdoor lighting. And,
um, in number six here on the screenshot
[9:53] it says any existing outdoor lighting
fixture attached to a structure on a
[9:57] residential property as of today's date
is exempt from this change. So, that
[10:02] means if a light bulb needs to be
replaced and it's super blue light, um,
[10:07] you could replace it with a blue light
that doesn't meet the the color
[10:10] temperature standards that we're
proposing. However, if the entire
[10:13] fixture needs to be replaced, then this
exemption no longer applies.
[10:18] Um, as I mentioned, this will only apply
to, um,
[10:23] to new lights going forward.
Um, and exemptions are made for holiday
[10:27] lights,
uh, the airport, construction lighting,
[10:30] temporary event lighting, and outdoor
sports lighting as it says there.
[10:33] Um, Kevin, if you could go to the
ordinance. Um, there was requested, um,
[10:38] during the,
uh, work meeting discussion today about
[10:42] holiday lighting. I wanted to, um,
show that. It's in the exemption
[10:47] section. It's number one
below 15.21.04.
[10:52] And it says, um, holiday lighting that
does not create dangerous glare on
[10:56] adjacent streets or property is
considered exempt. And all holiday
[10:59] lighting, um, now has a curfew and must
be turned off by 10:00 p.m. nightly.
[11:04] Okay?
Um, and then other than that, if you
[11:07] could go back to the presentation,
please.
[11:11] Um, I wanted to show
what some of the practical impacts of a
[11:16] change like this could look like. Um,
this is in Moab, Utah. Um, they
[11:20] implemented a dark sky policy for their
lighting. And before that policy was
[11:24] introduced, you can see the lights
appear very, or the streets, excuse me,
[11:29] appear very dim, but the the night sky
is pretty visible. Um however, when that
[11:34] same light that was used before is
directed downward where it's supposed to
[11:37] go in the after photo, you can see how
much more well-illuminated the streets
[11:41] are, um reducing glare on drivers and um
giving a perception of safety um that
[11:47] our our residents deserve. And on top of
that, the the night sky is much darker.
[11:52] Um and so, on the right on this slide
shows what is um
[11:57] a spec similar to what's being installed
by the city now on the left as of about
[12:01] 2 years ago um that would meet these
these dark sky compliant standards um
[12:05] versus one on the right which are um
some of our older fixtures that don't
[12:10] accomplish that saving.
And uh with that, uh that's all I have
[12:14] to share.
>> Thank you, Britain.
[12:17] All right, we'll open this item up for
public comment. Anyone have a question
[12:20] for Britain before we do that?
Councilor Garrett.
[12:25] » Just a comment, Britain, on those two
photos from Moab. I think you made the
[12:28] point earlier that they were taken at
the same time of day on different
[12:32] » Yes, so these are both both in the
evening hours and it's kind of difficult
[12:36] on this projector screen, but that same
building on the left is visible in the
[12:41] after photo, also in the before photo.
>> Mhm.
[12:43] » Um so, I'd encourage anyone to go to the
packet um at agendas.provo.gov
[12:48] if they want to see that picture a
little clearer.
[12:52] » All right, thanks, Britain.
>> Okay.
[12:54] » Any public comment on this item?
[13:01] » Hello, my name is Gavin. I'm a resident
of Provo. Um
[13:04] this is the first I'm hearing about
this, but I just have some questions. Um
[13:08] uh what's the benefit of having a dark
sky for at least the citizens of Provo?
[13:12] Uh my wife, she works at a national
park, and so there's obviously a benefit
[13:15] for Moab to have that, but I'm
specifically asking about Provo. And
[13:19] then um
with the Christmas lights, does is that
[13:23] only for new
What's the word?
[13:27] New buildings for the Christmas light
enforcement, is that for all citizens of
[13:30] Provo the Christmas light enforcement
and how is that going to be enforced? I
[13:33] feel like it would be cool to have a cop
come to your house or
[13:37] a ticket to your house during the
holidays, but there's some questions on
[13:41] that.
>> Thank you. We'll address all the
[13:42] questions after comment period.
Any more comments?
[13:49] All right. First of all, the Christmas
lights, they are exempt. So, no one will
[13:52] get
you know, the
[13:55] Now, after 10,
it's good I think it's going to be one
[13:57] of those things we are generally a
complaint based enforcement system. So,
[14:02] if it's bugging your neighbors and they
it's going through their little windows
[14:05] and they're irritated, we could get a
phone call and then they would come by.
[14:09] Yeah, exactly. We don't want you to be
Mr. Christmas Vacation.
[14:13] Um and
>> And it's all holiday lighting, not just
[14:16] Christmas lights.
>> yeah. So, and then there was another
[14:18] question. Oh, the dark sky.
Uh due to the same reason it is valuable
[14:23] at Moab, right? It's better for
animals, it's better for people
[14:27] sleeping, it's better for people who do
want to see the stars or not have
[14:31] everything,
you know, lit up. It's just better for
[14:33] the environment and quality of life is
the idea. Is there anything else you
[14:36] want to add to that, Jeff?
[14:40] » Yeah, I think um
one other thing I'll say to the first
[14:43] question is a lot of times
uh laws are not necessarily just to be
[14:48] enforced by police. There's norms we try
to create as a society that help us, you
[14:52] know, live together in a community and
so I think that's what we we're also
[14:56] trying to do here is just trying to
collectively say that um you know, this
[15:00] is better for the quality of life of
Provo to see the majesty of the night
[15:03] sky. Provo is blessed by nature and I
think the more things we can do to show
[15:08] that we cherish that, I think the
better.
[15:12] » Okay, Counselor Bogdan.
Hey, so I'm old,
[15:17] but when I first moved to Provo, I was
probably your age with young kids.
[15:21] And there's a cul-de-sac behind me.
And that light is so bright. It shined
[15:27] into my baby's windows and that's really
hard. Do you have young kids?
[15:32] When you have young kids, it's really
hard. So, I have in every single room in
[15:37] my house, I have blackout curtains.
Not Walmart Winnie blackout curtains. I
[15:42] have some serious blackout curtains.
And even still today, I represent West
[15:47] Provo. And when they opened up the
Lakeview Parkway past the high school, I
[15:52] had one of our residents come to me and
say, "They just put in those new
[15:56] streetlights and now I can see it
through my window. What do I do?" So,
[15:59] even though those are the not so bright
ones as it was 25 years ago when I moved
[16:05] into my home, right?
It still does cause a problem. Now, I'm
[16:09] going to put it on the flip side.
And I was at my sister's house when my
[16:14] brother-in-law died.
And Springville is so dark. You can't
[16:18] even really see. So, I appreciate that.
And one of the things that last year
[16:24] Provo Power did is they put out the
reason why
[16:28] Provo has a power company is because the
residents here wanted streetlights.
[16:33] So, I I think
I think having this ordinance helps us
[16:37] have that light. And I am one that
fought hard for the holiday lights to
[16:43] stay up because
we are
[16:46] Christmas lighters and we are Halloween
lighters.
[16:50] And it's a whole community thing. It
brings my entire neighborhood to my
[16:53] home.
So, those things those things are
[16:56] important.
It brings in community.
[16:59] But you have to have that balance,
right?
[17:03] And and that's what we're trying to look
at. And then also when you have
[17:07] some of these big electronic signs that
come into your neighborhood, that also
[17:11] leaves you with no sleep and so you're
just like zombied out. And it all of it
[17:16] is that balance that helps.
[17:23] » Okay, on
I was what
[17:26] Go ahead Rachel welcome.
>> Well, and I can add one more thing is
[17:29] that as we adopt these standards that we
have for our city whenever Udot or
[17:34] another entity does work in it, then we
have standards in place. So, when Udot
[17:39] redid 300 South
and they put in the new lights there,
[17:43] those are not the fully shielded lights.
And I live on 3rd South right next to
[17:49] one of those lights and my entire house
is illuminated like all the way through
[17:54] the house because of that. You know,
we've we've had to do blackout curtains
[17:57] as well.
And so, while we will not be making Udot
[18:00] go and change the fixtures that they've
got, it means that in the future they
[18:05] will be doing these more directed lights
that are more safe for the community and
[18:10] avoid the negative impacts for residents
and animals. So, I think it'll be a
[18:15] really good thing to have.
>> Now, to be clear like you mentioned
[18:20] holiday lights and Britain with um
like with general white lights under
[18:25] your the eaves, like that's not what
we're talking about as far as it have to
[18:29] be unplugged, right? It's more the
brighter, all the things going on at
[18:33] once.
[18:36] » Um so, Brian and I um the city attorney
actually discussed this and this might
[18:40] be something that comes back to the
council um to specify exactly what a
[18:45] holiday light means and really clearly
define that.
[18:48] Um but one of the discussion points was
about um like permanent outdoor LED
[18:53] lights that depending on the season, you
can change the color. If there's a
[18:58] Timpview or Provo High football game or
other sporting event, you can rep your
[19:03] colors like those.
Um
[19:07] » I think this is still a piece we need to
like clear up with the
[19:10] » a piece that we need to iron out. Um and
so this might be coming back to your
[19:13] consideration to
um, as far as figuring out that
[19:17] definition and being very specific with
those details. But for now,
[19:21] um, our city attorney feels comfortable
with the language that's in the
[19:23] ordinance.
[19:26] » Yeah, to piggyback on that, I I mean, I
think I think there's going to need to
[19:30] be some more study done, but we didn't
want as Britain and I talked, I think
[19:34] what he's added in there
gives us an immediate exception so that
[19:39] you don't have to worry about somebody
going out and enforcing tomorrow while
[19:43] we study things.
Um,
[19:46] and we also didn't want to go the other
way and say we need more time before you
[19:50] can pass any of it. So, I think that I
think that this works for what was
[19:53] expressed in the work session, but
holiday lighting is not actually defined
[19:58] in the code and so then there's this
whole question of what does what does
[20:00] that mean?
>> There's a lot of the basic just basic
[20:04] lights that people have are totally fine
all the time. Like they're not, you
[20:07] know, so we need to somehow how we need
to somehow differentiate between a
[20:10] nuisance
and
[20:12] » Right.
>> normal. Like you know.
[20:14] » Yeah, because everything I mean,
everything that's under
[20:17] Everything that Everything that's
underneath the eaves and underneath
[20:21] 3,000 Kelvin is already in compliance.
So, we're only talking about things that
[20:26] aren't.
>> Yeah.
[20:27] » Um, and that's where we've got the
holiday lighting. And then one of the
[20:30] comments I made to Britain is, you know,
we talked about about these jellyfish
[20:35] lights often being shielded because
they're under the eaves, but not all
[20:38] holiday lights are under the eaves. Some
people string their holiday lights out
[20:41] around the around the frame, right? So,
I think that there's more going to need
[20:47] to be done on the holiday {slash}
jellyfish
[20:50] issue, but I think this gets us
somewhere where you can
[20:54] » Okay, so we'll follow up on this soon
and clean it up.
[20:58] » Yeah.
>> But you think it's worth it's okay to
[20:59] pass now as it is.
>> so, yes.
[21:01] » Okay.
>> I don't think this penalizes something
[21:04] that you're not meaning to penalize. It
might be too permissive, but we can come
[21:08] back and tweak that after.
>> Okay. All right. Thank you.
[21:11] » Yeah, you're welcome.
>> All right. Any Any more comments anyone
[21:14] else has?
[21:17] All right. We'll call on a vote on the
implied motion. Are you still with us,
[21:20] Travis?
[21:24] Councillor Hopin.
>> I sure am.
[21:28] » Your vote?
>> Yes.
[21:29] » All right.
Councillor Whipple.
[21:32] » Yes.
>> Councillor Bogden.
[21:33] » Yes.
>> Councillor Whitlock.
[21:35] » Yes.
>> Councillor McKay, yes. Councillor
[21:38] Garrett.
>> Yes.
[21:40] » All right. That passes 6-0. And
if there's no objection, we will now
[21:45] adjourn the Provisional Council by
unanimous consent.