[0:14] Join me in the pledge allegiance.
[0:17] I pledge allegiance to the flag
of the United States of America.
[0:22] And to the Republic for which it stands.
[0:24] One nation under God, indivisible,
with liberty and justice for all.
[0:30] The Goffstown Zoning Board
[0:33] is an elected board
[0:36] of five members and up to five alternates
appointed by the Zoning Board.
[0:39] Currently, the board has five elected
members and four alternates.
[0:43] If anyone is interested
in serving on the CBA, please
[0:46] contact the Planning Zoning Office at Town
Hall for more information.
[0:50] The board has a posted agenda
for each meeting and tends
[0:53] to follow the items in order.
[0:55] The board will open the public
[0:56] hearing on an application
to receive testimony from applicants,
[0:59] butters, and affected parties,
and ask questions about the appeal.
[1:03] The public hearing will then be closed,
and the board will enter
[1:06] into a deliberative session
to discuss the merits of the appeal.
[1:10] For each application,
the board will decide to approve,
[1:13] approve with conditions, deny or continue
the public hearing to a later meeting.
[1:18] You are welcome to watch the deliberations
this evening.
[1:20] Or you can call the zoning department
at (600) 349-7899 zero, extension 815.
[1:27] To get the results for an applicant's
request to be approved,
[1:31] there must be an affirmative vote
of at least three members.
[1:34] An applicant can request a continuance
if there is not a full five member board
[1:39] to act on an application.
[1:40] Tonight we do have a full board.
[1:44] If you, the applicant and a butter
or any party to the action are aggrieved
[1:48] by a decision made by the CBA tonight,
you have the right to appeal
[1:52] to the Superior Court or the New Hampshire
Housing Appeals Board.
[1:55] However, before appealing,
you must request you must request
[1:59] a rehearing with this board
to preserve your right to appeal.
[2:03] Rehearing request must be filed
within 30 days of the decision,
[2:06] and state all reasons why the decision
was unlawful or unreasonable.
[2:11] Failure to request a rehearing
may forfeit your ability to appeal.
[2:15] And now we'll go through and do board
introductions.
[2:18] Jack.
[2:19] Jack.
[2:20] Sheppard, buildings
code Enforcement and zone..
[2:23] John Belville, member.
[2:25] Kristen Dawes, alternate.
[2:26] Jason Cody, vice chair.
[2:28] Davis Allen, alternate.
[2:31] Bruce Buttrick member.
[2:33] Charlie Farley, alternate.
[2:35] Leonard Stewart member.
[2:37] Joanne Duffy, planning and economic
development director.
[2:40] Thank you everybody.
[2:43] We'll start.
[2:44] Let's see.
[2:45] Put the agenda somewhere.
[2:48] And put mine so you can see it as well.
[2:50] Thank you.
[2:53] You don't have the right.
[2:55] So we'll go through
and do the August 4th, 2020 six minutes.
[2:59] Do we have any corrections or emotions?
[3:02] Yeah.
[3:12] I never said
the hardship is the ordinance,
[3:14] not the physical condition
of the property.
[3:16] This should be deleted.
[3:17] Okay.
[3:18] That's really clear.
[3:19] That's not what it was. Okay.
[3:21] So please, please note that in the record
to have that corrected.
[3:26] What page was that on.
[3:28] Page five of nine.
[3:38] The ordinance cannot be the hardship.
[3:44] Anyone else?
[3:50] Motion to make a motion as amended.
[3:54] Motion from Bruce.
[3:56] Second. Second. By Mr. Belliveau.
[3:58] All those in favor? All right.
[4:01] Oh. I'm sorry,
I have to appoint an alternate.
[4:04] Kristen,
you can vote on the minutes, please.
[4:06] All those in favor?
[4:08] I opposed one abstention.
[4:11] Motion carries.
[4:20] All right.
[4:22] First up on the docket, Beth Gage.
[4:25] Applicant is appealing
an administrative decision
[4:27] from the code enforcement officer
that an existing approval.
[4:31] I'm sorry.
[4:31] An existing approved preschool,
kindergarten group, child care center,
[4:35] infant and toddler care and school age
facility
[4:39] doesn't need an additional approval
or a conditional use permit from the
[4:43] Goffstown Planning Board
to allow for a summer camp program
[4:47] as part of the approved child
care center facility.
[4:50] The applicant is appealing
the decision under sections 1.2.2,
[4:54] 1.3.7, 3.2.3
[4:58] and 15.4 of the Goffstown
Zoning Ordinance.
[5:01] The property, known as the Gage Farm
Schoolhouse, is located at 215 Wallace
[5:05] Road Map five,
lot 73, owned by 215 Wallace Road LLC.
[5:11] Zoned agricultural.
[5:13] And if those applicants are here,
you can come on up.
[5:16] Please just let us know who you
are and your address, please.
[5:22] For someone who started out with.
[5:25] I'm 205 Wallace Road.
[5:28] I've lived there for almost 39 years.
[5:33] The I.
[5:37] The whole thing started by.
[5:40] If I have the right
[5:42] planning board,
granted a conditional use permit in 2020
[5:46] to the previous owners
before the Roberta's purchased it,
[5:50] it was granted for group child daycare,
[5:53] which is up to five school age children.
[5:58] I'm not arguing anything, except
[6:03] the school's gotten more intense and use.
[6:05] They've got a lot
more school age programs,
[6:10] and they haven't been approved
for only up to five school age kids.
[6:15] I just feel that they should go to
the planning board to have it revisited.
[6:19] For the additional use of the property.
[6:21] They can evaluate
whether they want to approve it or not.
[6:25] They can
[6:27] look at the site plan and see if it's it's
[6:30] adequate for what they're doing now
because it's just more intense.
[6:34] And and I know for me it affects me.
[6:38] It's a lot louder.
[6:40] I couldn't do I couldn't say anything
if it was just just a daycare.
[6:43] It's approved and I understand that.
[6:45] But where they've opened the door
to a lot older kids,
[6:50] that that's
why I'm here, because I used to like
[6:53] just I could enjoy my yard.
[6:56] And now it's like all summer long,
there's kids outside screaming
[6:59] all day long and I can't use
my windows are shut.
[7:04] My just it's it's different.
[7:06] It's intense. It's more of a business.
[7:07] And you know,
the only thing I can really say is that
[7:11] there's like a lot more older kids,
which it wasn't approved for.
[7:15] So I think you should just go
[7:16] to the planning board again
to have them revisit it.
[7:19] Okay. All right. So you are
[7:23] right.
[7:24] This is not the way that I read this.
[7:26] So that's very interesting.
[7:28] But well I mean it. Has been approved.
[7:31] It it is true for school age kids but.
[7:34] Up to five school age kids.
[7:35] So you know it can't argue that.
[7:38] But more intense they they were
the property
[7:42] was granted a conditional use permit
for a group child day care center.
[7:47] There was no amount of kids
that was limited to
[7:50] I was naive, I've I've lived
next to the school that was there before.
[7:55] For what?
[7:55] I don't know, 20 years.
[7:56] And it was fine.
[7:58] I, I saw the kids playing.
[8:00] It was outside where they were playing.
[8:02] It's completely different.
[8:03] So I was naive to what it could turn into.
[8:06] But the only thing I can, you know,
address right now is the age of the kids.
[8:11] So if they were to go back to five
or less school age
[8:15] kids, there's really nothing I could say.
[8:17] But the way things are now,
I think it should be revisited
[8:21] to the planning board because a day it's
a day camp right now at the summer summer
[8:27] camps get school aged kids so it doesn't
fall under group child daycare.
[8:32] And that's a specific conditional
use permit
[8:36] that the planning board
is authorized to approve.
[8:41] Okay.
[8:42] 22 so
[8:45] I'm going to open up the public hearing.
[8:48] I'm going to start with
Joanne is representing the town.
[8:51] Sure. Hi.
[8:53] For those of you who don't know me
and for the record, I'm Joanne.
[8:57] Excuse me, I'm Joanne Duffy.
[8:58] I'm the planning and economic development
director for the town.
[9:02] I've been involved with this
[9:05] probably from when Beth started to.
[9:09] 2025.
[9:11] So I've kind of been in and out of it
for just over a year.
[9:17] So I've been sent here
to represent the town on this issue.
[9:21] So to start out with in 20,
[9:25] I can't even talk 2020.
[9:28] November of 2020, we had a request
that came to the planning board.
[9:33] There were four people involved,
two owners
[9:36] and two who wanted to open up
a group childcare center.
[9:39] And they came to the planning board
and they asked for a waiver of site
[9:44] plan approval.
[9:45] Because we had the site plan
from New Morning School.
[9:48] It was a 1986 site plan,
but it was still basically
[9:53] very, very similar
to what these people wanted to do.
[9:56] The only changes that they made was
there were some red line versions.
[10:00] You'll notice
[10:01] there were two copies in the packet
that was left on the table tonight.
[10:05] One was the original 1986
and the red line was from 2020.
[10:11] They presented that to the Planning Board.
[10:14] In the Planning Board,
[10:17] they had
[10:17] asked the Planning Board to waive
an engineered site plan in place of
[10:21] this site plan that they were presenting
with the red lines on it.
[10:25] The planning board approved that,
and at the same time they were asking
[10:29] for permission
for a group child care center,
[10:32] which in zoning ordinance requires
[10:35] in the agricultural district anyway,
it requires a conditional use permit.
[10:39] And that was also granted.
[10:42] They they started doing their homework
and started looking into the building
[10:47] more and found out
that what they really wanted to do
[10:50] was to expensive,
and they never went forward with it.
[10:54] They never applied to the state
for their license or anything.
[10:58] A few months later, we were then
approached by another applicant
[11:02] who was the current owner,
and that was in 2021, and they were asking
[11:08] for a preschool kindergarten, similar
to a new morning school.
[11:13] Who who were the original owners back
started in the 70s, I believe.
[11:18] Now kindergartens
[11:19] are permitted use in our zoning ordinance,
[11:22] so they didn't need a conditional use
permit to do a kindergarten.
[11:26] And that's, that's,
you know, written in our ordinance itself.
[11:30] So the
[11:33] the things that they were looking at
was the same red line
[11:36] versions that were shown to us in 2020.
[11:39] They had agreed that they wanted
to do the same.
[11:43] The original playground,
when it was new morning school,
[11:46] the original playground was towards
the road.
[11:48] There was a small like
[11:51] I forget what those fences are called,
but like a split rail fence.
[11:54] And then the playground was right there.
[11:56] And these kids that are out
there are like three, 4 or 5 years old.
[12:00] So they decided it was safer to
[12:02] move the children in the back
and have their play area back there.
[12:06] So they made some slight changes
like that,
[12:09] but it was in accordance
with the red lines version that was shown.
[12:13] And so we heard
we met with them at a technical review
[12:18] committee meeting with
staff, excuse me and staff.
[12:24] We all
[12:24] agreed that it wasn't a change
compared to what the planning board
[12:28] had previously approved
just a few months earlier,
[12:31] and that they didn't
[12:32] need to go back to the planning board
because it was typically the same thing.
[12:36] The only thing they did not need
was the conditional use permit,
[12:39] so they were not sent back
to the planning board at that point.
[12:43] Can I interrupt.
[12:44] They can I?
[12:47] Can you.
[12:48] Hold on? You'll be able. To.
[12:50] Respond back.
[12:51] Because I'll lose my train of thought.
[12:54] So under the New Hampshire
Health and Human Services, there are eight
[12:58] categories of child care programs
that they licensed through the state.
[13:03] There's a family child care home.
[13:05] There's a family group, child care home.
[13:07] There's a group child care center.
[13:10] There's an infant toddler program.
[13:12] There's a preschool program.
[13:13] There's a school age program.
[13:15] There's a night care program.
[13:17] And the last one is a residential care
residential child care program.
[13:23] The Gage School
has four out of those eight,
[13:28] they have a group childcare,
the infant toddler program,
[13:32] the preschool program,
and the school age program.
[13:36] Our ordinance does not break down
[13:39] all of these uses, even though you'll find
[13:43] I'm not sure about the night care
or the residential child care.
[13:47] Not familiar with those,
but the rest of them.
[13:50] We allow these uses in our town.
[13:52] It might not say
the same exact language in our ordinance,
[13:55] but they're similar in in uses
[13:59] like we don't have anything in there
that says school age program.
[14:03] Yet there are many childcare agencies
in this town that have school
[14:06] age programs,
preschool programs, things like that.
[14:10] So most of the time when someone comes
in, it falls under one of the others.
[14:16] But it's not.
[14:18] It's the ordinance itself needs work.
[14:20] It's not very specific.
[14:23] So when
[14:26] but what we do provide is
when someone comes forward
[14:30] and they have to go
[14:32] after they meet with us, they go to
the state for their license approval.
[14:36] There is a zoning verification form
that needs to be approved and signed off
[14:40] by either the zoning person in town, or
[14:44] in one particular
one that we passed in your packet.
[14:48] I believe you have copies of it.
[14:49] There's two different ones.
[14:51] One is from 2021
and the other one is from 2024.
[14:55] One was signed by the town administrator.
[14:57] I think he was filling in at the time
because we didn't have a zoning person,
[15:02] but there's a section on there
that says any conditions.
[15:07] And the way it was explained to us
[15:10] through email from the state was that
if you had an issue where you didn't
[15:16] want to allow someone
to do a specific thing like a camp or
[15:22] a summer camp or after school care
or something like that,
[15:26] then you would write it in that section
in the state, would not allow them to
[15:32] receive that type of a license,
[15:35] but when they are approved by the town
to be
[15:38] there as a child care facility
[15:41] and you don't have any restrictions
on there, then they can go and apply
[15:45] for any of those licenses
that I just read off to you.
[15:48] And this is what they did.
[15:50] And they applied for four of them.
[15:53] So the number of students
also comes into play on that form.
[15:58] You typically
you would have the first instance
[16:02] when the zoning officer signed off,
she had put to be determined
[16:06] by the fire department
because it's all based on square footage.
[16:11] That was the first time that when they
first opened, the second time, once
[16:14] they were already established, the town
administrator knew the number and put 65.
[16:19] And that's the number
that's still in effect today. So
[16:24] so that's
the type of things that go on that form.
[16:27] And I'm not familiar with
how the state works with this process.
[16:31] I don't know if they ask for this
zoning verification every so many years
[16:36] when the license is about to be due.
[16:39] I don't know how that works.
[16:41] That's out of my ballpark,
but but I have found only
[16:45] two of them in the file, and that's all
we have so far for that particular school.
[16:51] I have photographs that we took.
[16:55] I think they were actually taken online.
[16:59] We didn't physically go out there
and take them, but I can pass them around
[17:03] and you'll see that
there is a very large treed buffer
[17:11] between the two parcels.
[17:13] This is the school area over here.
[17:17] And this is Mrs.
[17:19] Home over here on this side.
[17:21] But I'll just pass this around
and you can take a look at them.
[17:24] So there's it's quite a dense treed area
[17:28] which should help
with some some of the noise.
[17:35] The next thing is in night in,
[17:41] in. Let me just catch my.
[17:44] Oh, and one thing I failed to say
when the first people came in in 2020,
[17:51] they called themselves
a group child daycare center.
[17:55] However, at the time that they asked
for a waiver of the engineered plans
[17:59] and the conditional use permit
in their application, they also said that
[18:03] they were going to be doing
after school care.
[18:08] And it would be open from 6:30 a.m.
[18:10] to 6 p.m.
[18:11] so if they had gone forward,
they would have been doing the same thing.
[18:15] We just never saw that happen
because they never went forward.
[18:22] The. Specific sections
of the zoning ordinance
[18:27] that the applicant mentioned is,
[18:32] was listed on her application.
[18:35] And the
[18:38] the items seem to be very vague.
[18:42] The first one has to do with relationship
to other laws, ordinances, regulations.
[18:47] Whenever one provision
is stricter than the other,
[18:50] you always go towards
the more restrictive one.
[18:54] The second one is to conserve conserve
property values
[18:57] by preventing harmful encroachment
of incompatible uses.
[19:02] Or, as I stated before,
[19:03] kindergarten is a permitted use
in the agricultural district.
[19:07] The third one is use is permitted
by conditional use permit.
[19:11] And I know that she had mentioned
in her text that she feels
[19:16] that this needs a conditional use permit,
but it's a kindergarten.
[19:20] So again, I don't mean to be repetitive,
but it doesn't require one.
[19:25] And then
the other one was that the planning board
[19:28] shall have the authority to grant
conditional use permit, which is correct.
[19:32] But again
they don't need a conditional use permit.
[19:34] So I'm not really sure
[19:37] what the actual appeal is all about.
[19:43] The I did receive a phone call
from someone who is in a butter,
[19:48] not in a butter.
[19:49] I'm sorry,
who is a resident of on Ridgewood Avenue,
[19:52] and they were complaining to me
about traffic.
[19:56] And as most of you probably travel
[19:58] Wallace Road at some point in time,
it is a busy road.
[20:01] It's been a busy road for years and years.
[20:04] It goes it goes from Goffstown to Bedford
and then further on as you continue
[20:10] through the Bedford area, it's
I think the name changes,
[20:14] but it still continues on to,
I think, Merrimack.
[20:17] It's a it's a road
that lots of people use,
[20:20] especially during rush hour
in the morning, in the evening.
[20:24] But it's the traffic is certainly not
coming from the school itself.
[20:29] When New Morning was there,
there were a lot of problems with parking,
[20:32] especially when they had
little graduation ceremonies
[20:35] and they had special events
and things like that.
[20:39] Come and meet the teacher type things.
[20:41] And the cars used to park on Wallace Road,
and it caused quite an issue.
[20:46] And there wasn't as much traffic back
[20:48] then, just they
they've been closed now for years,
[20:52] but the the current owners
[20:54] have made provisions
for parking for special event types.
[20:59] They don't use it on a normal basis,
but only when they have special events
[21:02] and they park in the
[21:03] in the back of the property
so as not to disturb the neighbors.
[21:07] And it's not to cause any confusion
out on Wallace with all of the traffic.
[21:11] So they've taken steps to try to alleviate
any problems with traffic.
[21:16] And traffic was not an appeal to you here.
[21:18] So I don't think the zoning board
should even really be discussing it.
[21:23] The applicant
[21:26] has said here and she just
[21:29] she has it in her text,
and she's also mentioned it before that,
[21:33] that the project is not approved
for more than five school age children.
[21:38] But if you read through,
I included a list in your packet
[21:42] of the different types of daycare centers
and the ones that I just read off to you.
[21:47] There's definitions for each one,
and in our ordinance it says group child
[21:53] daycare cannot have more
than five school age children,
[21:56] which means five after school care
or before school care.
[22:00] Children, typically the school age
children are up to age 12.
[22:05] And that that's that's fine,
[22:10] except that the license,
the state overrides that
[22:14] because the license itself allows for
[22:18] as many as you want
[22:21] up to your limitation of the 65
at any one time.
[22:24] So you can't have, you know,
[22:28] 100 kids there
[22:30] and say,
well, but those are only school age.
[22:33] You can only have the maximum
that's allowed.
[22:35] And I don't know if you can. Mix the ages.
[22:38] Again, I don't know all of the rules
of the state, only the ones I looked into.
[22:42] So I don't know if they can be mixed ages
at the same time.
[22:46] I'm not sure about that, but the.
[22:49] But I do know that the state allows
[22:52] as many school age children as possible
as you need to
[22:56] with the restrictions
that you follow their rules.
[22:59] As far as no more than what you're allowed
at any one time,
[23:03] which in their case is 65.
[23:07] So so that doesn't apply here.
[23:11] And the decision.
[23:14] She also said the decision did not address
[23:18] something about
[23:18] needing a special exception,
which it didn't need a special exception.
[23:22] Maybe it was supposed to be conditional
use permit, but again,
[23:24] it doesn't need a conditional use permit
either.
[23:28] So during
[23:30] 2025, staff had received complaints
from Mrs.
[23:36] Plourde regarding noise from the children,
particularly the after school program,
[23:40] because these kids were older,
and she was of the opinion
[23:45] that the after school program
was not a permitted use,
[23:50] and that they didn't include plans
for an after school program
[23:53] in their application.
[23:55] Again, it
[23:58] our zoning ordinance does not have any.
[24:02] There's no mention
whatsoever of after school care
[24:05] except for those five children.
[24:07] So that didn't really come into play
when they went to apply
[24:11] for their license at the state,
[24:14] just as the first people from 2020
were planning to do the same thing.
[24:20] So. Let me just catch my here.
[24:24] She's.
[24:28] So, so I think there's just confusion
[24:30] on how the state handles it
and how the town handles it.
[24:34] And the state pretty much overrides
[24:37] what the town does
because the state has certain rules.
[24:40] We and we write on their nose
after school children
[24:46] on the zoning verification form,
which this school has been in operation
[24:50] now for six years,
and we have never done that.
[24:54] And I can't imagine the town
going in there now and telling them
[24:58] that you have to change your business plan
because your kids are too loud.
[25:04] The kids are only up to 12 years of age.
[25:06] It's not like there's teenagers there.
[25:10] So in
[25:12] on May 21st of 2026,
the town did receive a letter.
[25:17] I'm sorry. Let me back up a minute.
[25:18] So to to address the issues
with the summer camp because
[25:23] because that was also an issue
raised by Mrs.
[25:26] Plourde.
[25:27] The town administrator
did send a letter back and explained
[25:32] that he spoke with the department heads,
and he looked into some other complaints.
[25:38] There was a complaint about something
to do with the tent, and some problems
[25:43] with the fire department had a few issues
and after everything
[25:47] and Jack had to go out there a few times,
everything was wrapped up in everyone.
[25:52] All the departments were fine
and everyone said,
[25:56] and I have emails to this fact
that everyone said yes,
[25:59] they're in compliance,
that everyone's good.
[26:01] So that was in December of 2025.
[26:06] The following May of 2026,
the town received a letter
[26:10] from Attorney
Manning representing Miss Plourde
[26:14] concerning
alleged zoning code violations. And
[26:19] they said that
[26:20] issues that had been a concern.
[26:23] No. I'm sorry.
[26:24] Then Jack sent a letter saying that
all of the issues that had been a concern
[26:28] with the various department
[26:29] heads had been addressed, and
there were no other outstanding issues.
[26:34] When we sent the letter
back to the attorney,
[26:38] she she got in touch with us and said that
[26:41] she was no longer
representing the applicant.
[26:44] So we then sent a letter to Mrs.
[26:47] Plourde.
[26:49] The school is allowed to care.
[26:51] Now, this isn't my me saying this.
[26:54] This is the state.
[26:55] I have emails from the state
and this is what they say.
[26:58] The school is allowed to care
for any number of school age children
[27:02] if they do not exceed
their licensing capacity of 65.
[27:06] These decisions are based on the life
safety inspection provided by the fire
[27:10] inspector and any restrictions
provided on the zoning approval form.
[27:15] And like I said before,
which there are no restrictions,
[27:19] child care licenses
may have the school age license type.
[27:24] In addition to the group child
care program,
[27:27] they are allowed to advertise and operate
a summer camp under the school age
[27:31] license type and are not required
to have separate approval for this.
[27:37] So it's
[27:39] pretty much everything that I've covered
and and looked at everything.
[27:43] So on behalf of the town and my office,
I am respectfully requesting
[27:47] that the Zoning Board of Adjustment
[27:49] find that this appeal has no merit
and deny this request.
[27:53] And I'll take any questions
if you have any.
[27:56] So let's start with the board first,
and then I'll come back to you.
[28:02] Okay.
[28:02] This is the questions that we're going
[28:04] to ask
are specifically what Joanne just said.
[28:08] So I want to make sure
we're not addressing this.
[28:11] Let's
take care of this set of parentheses.
[28:14] And then we'll we'll address bigger issue.
[28:17] But one of the things that confuses me
with this is this complaint
[28:23] seems to me to be more
[28:26] a matter of enforcement than zoning.
[28:30] And how can you direct
[28:34] against a summer camp program
when what you're really talking about
[28:40] is the licensing for the entire facility,
and whether they have
[28:48] the correct approvals
to operate that kind of right.
[28:52] I'm unsure
how you can separate those two things out
[28:55] summer camp versus their entire operation.
[28:59] Okay. Can I help you with that?
[29:00] So if their summer camp
[29:02] is part of their program,
it's considered part of their license.
[29:07] That's what we have.
[29:08] It's not a separate license.
[29:12] Understood.
[29:13] But that seems to me
to be the substance of the complaint.
[29:18] It was directed specifically against
[29:22] the facility
operating the summer camp program.
[29:26] I mean, one of the things
I would be interested in since Mrs.
[29:30] Florida's a longtime
neighbor of the property, is what
[29:33] the child census was
when the under its former name,
[29:39] it was in full operation
as a school in kindergarten.
[29:44] How many kids you had on site
at that point?
[29:47] They had they were licensed for 50,
[29:51] so it was 15.
[29:54] Higher than what the definition of group,
[29:58] family, group.
[29:58] But but. Again.
[30:01] Because they were
they fell under a kindergarten as well.
[30:04] Preschool. Kindergarten.
[30:05] The group child care and 5.6.4.
[30:08] That's the only one
that's in the table. Yes.
[30:11] Yeah.
[30:11] So group
childcare as defined by New Hampshire
[30:14] RSA six seven for family and group
childcare programs,
[30:18] shall be allowed as an accessory
use to a primary residential use.
[30:23] It's for someone
[30:24] who has a home
who is taking care of children.
[30:28] There's two different.
[30:29] There's another. One.
[30:30] That is a family group.
[30:32] The other.
[30:33] One is the other one.
[30:34] That's the one reference, okay.
[30:37] But also the the allowed use
in the agricultural zone is kindergarten.
[30:42] Elementary or secondary
school is a permitted use. Yes.
[30:46] And that was that was
kind of what I was going to bring up.
[30:49] I need to look at their license from.
[30:52] I'm sorry.
[30:54] Go ahead. Bruce.
[30:54] Mr. chair, I'd like to comment on
I think those owning board has the ability
[31:00] to look at it broader.
[31:04] There's been an appeal
of administrative decision,
[31:08] and we've been asked as a board
to act upon
[31:11] some elements that she's alleging
that's not correct.
[31:15] And she's appealing.
[31:17] However.
[31:18] RSA 674 colon 33
[31:22] two allows a zoning board to make it
[31:25] as ought to be made, any decisions,
any appeals.
[31:30] So I think that opens up the board to say,
okay,
[31:33] let's look at it as a whole package
and see if there's any errors in this.
[31:39] I'm going to say application.
[31:40] But really in this property
[31:44] from a zoning standpoint.
[31:46] So I go back to more of a timeline
[31:50] issue or question
I was owning ordinance in the table
[31:55] says that it's a group child care
or family group child care.
[32:00] I believe it's permitted use.
[32:02] Just group. Child care group.
[32:04] So yeah. So okay.
[32:06] So our definition for group
[32:09] is that no more than five
[32:11] believe our town
definition group child daycare center
[32:17] provided for preschool children
up to five school age children.
[32:21] Okay, so it does nothing with numbers.
[32:25] It has an age criteria
that to me was referenced.
[32:30] I think it was morning.
[32:31] Morning, day school,
something way back going forward.
[32:36] Right.
[32:38] To me the town allowed
[32:40] childcare up to five school age children.
[32:46] However, somewhere we're being told
[32:50] that in 2020
they went to the planning board.
[32:54] So they had the site plan approval
for the up to five school age
[32:57] children in 86.
[33:00] In 2020,
they asked the planning board for group
[33:05] childcare and I believe it was commented
also after school care.
[33:10] But that was a different person.
[33:12] That was not in. The morning.
[33:13] I'm going with you,
but an application came in.
[33:17] They went to the planning board
to say, look,
[33:19] obviously they were expanding
from the greater than five
[33:22] school aged children because they wanted
to do an after school care
[33:26] which has more school age children.
[33:29] So I'm trying to find that path,
and I believe that's factual.
[33:34] I'm not sure on that application in 2020.
[33:38] However,
that application of A14 was correct.
[33:42] The first.
[33:42] The. Application went forward, but
they never went forward with the business.
[33:48] So typically site plans
expire in two years.
[33:53] I think if you don't exercise
that approval.
[33:56] Correct.
[33:58] However, a new owner.
[33:59] Came in, a new owner came.
[34:01] Yes, exercised and approved site plan
within two years.
[34:06] So those approvals and the waivers
[34:08] that came with that from 20 in 2021
[34:12] goes forward
with all those approvals and the waivers.
[34:17] So I believe in 2021,
[34:20] they came into doing their group
[34:23] childcare with school age children,
[34:29] a number not received
[34:30] 65, and there's no breakup
or a ratio of 6565 came
[34:34] from the fire department on the.
[34:38] Documentation that I saw.
[34:41] And subsequently we've had some.
[34:45] In 2021 when they came in.
[34:47] The newest owners, current owners
go forward.
[34:52] I believe, rightly determined
[34:55] that there wasn't any change
from the approval in 2020.
[34:58] They were going to do
[35:01] what is the group?
[35:02] Infant, preschool and school age?
[35:07] Even though we don't have
[35:09] a defined use of that
in our zoning ordinance.
[35:14] Right.
[35:15] We don't break it down
as specific as the state does.
[35:19] So they kind of approved it
[35:23] even though it doesn't
show up in the table
[35:25] of uses at the planning board.
[35:28] Probably the real thing to have done with
[35:31] probably get a variance to do the after
school or if there's another use group,
[35:37] put the after school in with it,
but we don't have that in that table.
[35:41] Music seems so confused
by a really simple issue.
[35:48] What are they approved yet?
[35:50] Are are they approved as a group child
daycare center
[35:55] with the conditional use permit, or
[35:59] are they approved as a kindergarten?
[36:04] I think it's going to be yes and yes.
[36:05] They can carry all of those.
[36:07] They can carry all of those.
[36:10] So on the town.
[36:11] So if they're approved as a kindergarten,
[36:16] well, first of
all, they have the conditional use permit.
[36:18] No, they don't need. One for.
[36:21] But we're saying that they're approved
for two things.
[36:23] The kindergarten
and the group child daycare center.
[36:29] They approve of both.
[36:30] That's
what the 2020 applicant was approved.
[36:33] For 2020 was.
[36:34] So the current owner,
are they approved for both
[36:39] the group child care center, daycare.
[36:42] Center, have a license for that. Correct.
[36:44] And they're also approved
for the kindergarten program.
[36:48] We approve them for that.
[36:51] We staff approved them
[36:53] to to have a kindergarten preschool. Okay.
[36:56] And the state approved them.
[36:58] And for the.
[37:00] Group preschool, the the after school.
[37:04] And so the applicant is asking for
[37:10] the planning board to issue
[37:12] a conditional use permit
[37:16] because, well, whatever.
[37:18] But there is one for one of the approvals.
[37:21] And they're also approved
as a kindergarten program.
[37:24] And the state
then has a licensing for that
[37:27] that allows them to do camps
and after school.
[37:31] And so.
[37:34] I can't.
[37:35] I. Have so some.
[37:36] Different license in your packet as well.
[37:39] Yeah.
[37:40] The local approvals, local approvals
[37:43] happened to allow the after school
kindergarten was always grandfathered,
[37:48] whatever that was the use
that was on an 86 man.
[37:51] The change in 20 to 21.
[37:53] Both of those asked to do after school,
[37:58] the over five years old agreed.
[38:01] Right. Yeah.
[38:01] So then going forward, the staff
at those times said, well,
[38:05] they don't need a conditional use permit
or there was a waiver to that.
[38:08] I'm not sure the planning board
had an approval.
[38:10] Well, they gave an approval
above and beyond kindergarten.
[38:13] They also allowed the after school
going forward.
[38:19] And again,
[38:20] the local approval criteria bucket,
so to speak.
[38:24] Don't go inside with state laws. Right.
[38:26] We know that.
[38:28] That's why it's hard for the staff to say
okay, this one, this one.
[38:32] Is there any more questions
specifically on what Joanne brought up
[38:35] and I know you're at.
[38:36] So I might be able to help
because I asked.
[38:39] So my cry studio we are licensed.
[38:44] So we are a licensed child care center.
[38:46] We have a school age program
that allows us to have up
[38:50] to X number of students
that is defined by.
[38:57] So the the town or cities
[39:01] fire department will determine capacity.
[39:04] The DHHS will take that
[39:10] and generally issue them a license
for the max capacity,
[39:14] assuming they have the proper teachers
and that kind of thing.
[39:17] And then from there
they can have whatever mixture
[39:21] because their license is
is not separated by that.
[39:25] So they can have a
they could have one preschooler
[39:28] and 64 after school kids.
[39:32] They're licensed
as long as they're not over 12.
[39:37] That help okay.
[39:39] All right.
[39:40] Now any board left with the town.
[39:44] All right. So I'll let you go ahead and.
[39:47] Well, I was trying to keep it simple, but
I got very confused, so I'm sure you are.
[39:52] I have the minutes from the 2020 meeting
[39:54] and they had no intentions
of changing anything exterior of them.
[39:58] So I think I was reading they they said,
[40:03] I highlighted.
[40:06] They only use main building at this time.
[40:08] They would use the first floor,
lower floor and second floor.
[40:10] It's for children who are ages
six weeks to pre-K.
[40:14] That's what
the 2020 conditional use permit was for.
[40:17] They didn't ask for after school.
[40:18] They were asking for a full day daycare.
[40:20] They wanted a full day daycare,
you know, up to kindergarten.
[40:26] The conditional use permit
stays with the property.
[40:30] So it's not like
Roberta's had to go for more.
[40:35] I wrote the ordinance
[40:37] 1.2.2 relationship to other laws,
ordinances, regulations.
[40:41] Whenever the provisions
of the ordinance conflict
[40:43] with any other ordinance, statute,
or rule, the more restrictive or higher
[40:46] standard shall apply, blah blah blah.
[40:51] The state lists
preschool and kindergarten, whatever.
[40:54] They list kindergarten with preschool.
[40:56] They list kindergarten with schools
when kindergartens are in schools,
[41:00] and that kindergartens are considered
preschool when they're with preschools.
[41:04] In our ordinance,
we list kindergarten twice.
[41:07] So under group childcare,
[41:11] the agency in which the child daycare
[41:13] is provided for preschool children
up to five school age children.
[41:17] This is our ordinance that we're supposed
to go by, not by the state.
[41:21] Our ordinance.
[41:22] The state can override
the local ordinance.
[41:25] Okay. This is state law.
[41:26] So they are licensed for school age kids.
[41:30] This is also state law.
[41:32] What a group child daycare is,
[41:35] is up to five school age children.
[41:38] Whether the service is known as nursery,
[41:41] nursery school, kindergarten,
cooperative, child development center,
[41:45] daycare center, center
for the developmentally disabled,
[41:48] progressive school, Montessori school,
or by any other name.
[41:51] RSA 172 for.
[41:58] It's also state law.
[41:59] So that is state.
[42:01] So they were licensed by the state
to do school age children.
[42:06] But it's group
child daycare center up to five.
[42:10] That's also licensed
for school age program which is up to 12.
[42:15] Okay.
[42:15] So in our ordinance
[42:19] that's a group child daycare center.
[42:22] That's up.
[42:23] So in our ordinance,
[42:26] up to five school age children for group
child daycare, they want to have
[42:30] a summer camp with school age kids
not talking kindergarten.
[42:37] You said even if kindergarten is allowed
in agricultural talking
[42:40] older kids,
then they need a conditional use permit.
[42:43] It's in the ordinance,
so I'm just asking for that.
[42:47] Muddying all this up.
[42:49] There's a lot of extra that we went
through that I wasn't arguing,
[42:53] I'm just asking for this
to be seen by the planning board
[42:58] and to go over it
because the site plan didn't.
[43:02] Go. Over everything.
[43:04] They've had an addition,
[43:07] they've put an outdoor
[43:10] classroom,
and that's not part of the site plan.
[43:13] I guess they had a fire ring
that the fire department made them remove.
[43:17] So was that ever permitted
when they put it in?
[43:20] The letter from Derek
Horne listed a lot of things that changed,
[43:23] and he said he never saw a permit
for the outdoor school classroom.
[43:30] And, you know, there were a lot of changes
that should have been on site plan
[43:34] because conditional use.
[43:38] So yes.
[43:41] Ma'am. Has two follow ups to that.
[43:44] I still wasn't done. But.
[43:45] You. Can. Interrupt me. It's okay.
[43:46] No no, no. Go ahead.
You can follow. Up on that.
[43:49] I'm not sure.
[43:50] Okay. The tree line.
[43:51] I don't know if that's in the site plan.
[43:53] It's not in the site plan.
[43:54] Those those can be cut.
[43:55] And I can tell you those trees are dying.
[43:58] There's like, they're dying.
[43:59] Those trees just kind of grow up.
There's never anything up there.
[44:02] I got a picture from, like 1970.
[44:04] You can see my house right to the barn.
[44:07] You know, they're just dying
because the water, the water's changed
[44:10] over there, so, you know, it's
not as thick.
[44:13] It used to be really thick.
[44:14] I used to
[44:14] walk my kids to school through there,
and it was like going through the woods.
[44:17] Now it's like you can kind of see through
in the winter. You can see right through.
[44:22] I think
[44:22] those are kind of the notes
I was writing with.
[44:26] So yeah.
[44:30] So day camp is conditional use permit.
[44:37] Okay.
[44:38] Do any wanted to respond? Yes.
[44:42] Just two things
[44:44] in the letter that we received from
[44:48] the Jason Witty was his name back in 2020.
[44:54] He specifically says in here specifically,
the child care
[44:58] Center offers
not only educational preschool programs,
[45:01] but also offers childcare for hours
outside of the normal school hours.
[45:06] The child
care center will have a typical opening
[45:09] of hours 630 and 6 p.m.,
which I had mentioned before,
[45:14] so they were planning to do it before
and after
[45:18] child care, daycare, whatever.
[45:21] They didn't say the age is in when he.
[45:23] Spoke.
[45:24] The minutes of the.
[45:25] Planning interrupting me, please.
[45:27] I'm not finished. I'm sorry.
[45:31] And the
[45:31] second thing I just wanted to mention
was the issues that she's bringing up now
[45:36] about the children
being the older children,
[45:42] I don't believe
we're in her written appeal.
[45:46] I could be wrong,
but I don't believe those items about the
[45:50] the after school kids
being there that they weren't allowed.
[45:55] However, that should have been brought up
30 days after the town
[46:01] decided that this could go
in, not six years later.
[46:04] You can't come back to a business
six years later and say,
[46:08] you can't do that, even though
the town told you that it was okay.
[46:12] So she.
[46:15] Initially she was she was.
[46:17] Jack had written his letter
about the noise and and the not the noise.
[46:23] It wasn't even about the noise
at that time.
[46:24] The noise was a verbal.
[46:26] Jack had written his letter and said,
all of the things that you
[46:29] that you didn't care for
were taken care of.
[46:33] And Jack's letter is also in your packet.
[46:38] I'll find it in a second.
[46:52] Do we have a copy of that letter?
[46:55] I don't remember seeing it stated.
[46:57] May 21st, 2026.
[47:02] So. One.
[47:05] Signed by Derek.
[47:07] Know this is a different one.
[47:08] This is the one she's appealing.
[47:10] Says this office reviewed
your letter of April 29th regarding
[47:15] zoning code violation, where you state
that you represent Beth Ford.
[47:19] Now, again, this was sent to the attorney
and then the attorney said,
[47:22] please send it directly to her.
[47:26] The business in question
has four child care
[47:28] license, and we could name them all
[47:32] the cumulative number of children on site
[47:35] at any one time cannot exceed 65.
[47:38] Section five six.
[47:40] One of the town Zoning ordinance states
compliance with regulations.
[47:44] All child care facilities must comply with
[47:47] all applicable state
and federal regulations.
[47:50] Therefore,
morning and afternoon school child care
[47:55] is permitted as part of their state
licensing.
[47:58] Summer camp is a typical activity
conducted during the summer months
[48:01] at most child care centers,
and is permitted under
[48:04] the school aged care license.
[48:06] Derek Horned, Hound administrator,
did reach out to the property owner
[48:10] in November of 20 2525,
informing him of potential violations.
[48:15] My research shows that the 2024 building
permit
[48:20] 24 115
conference room has been closed out.
[48:24] The work was inspected
and approved on November 7th, 2025.
[48:28] The outdoor shelter building with campfire
ring and sitting area was inspected
[48:32] by the fire inspector, Captain Tim LaVoy.
[48:35] Captain Lavoie noted they have resolved
the issues noted during the inspection.
[48:40] The campfire ring has been removed.
[48:42] They have also obtained a tent permit
for 2026.
[48:45] All issues have been addressed
and are now resolved.
[48:48] This is the letter that this is appealing
and there's nothing in here
[48:54] about school age
children or camps or anything like that.
[48:57] So those issues should have been appealed
in 30 days
[49:03] after the place
received approval from the town.
[49:08] This is the only thing she can appeal is
Jack's determination.
[49:12] It's his appeal of the zoning code
officers determination.
[49:16] At this point.
[49:19] Can I speak again?
[49:20] Still my turn.
[49:22] Board to have any questions
for a follow up first.
[49:26] Just as I think
[49:27] I said before having trouble,
[49:30] we seem to not be able to focus on
one issue.
[49:35] We go back and forth
in the ages of the children on the site
[49:42] versus
the conditions on site that are possible.
[49:46] Zoning violates.
[49:48] And, you know, it's just very difficult
[49:52] to figure out
what is supposed to be the central
[49:56] here.
[49:56] And I you know,
I do tend to agree with Joanne's point.
[50:03] If the original conditions
that are talked about here
[50:07] were going to be appeal,
they needed to be appealed
[50:11] within a reasonable time
frame after the original approval,
[50:16] not six years later.
[50:21] I agree, I gotta say.
[50:22] I do agree. On that.
[50:25] Yes, she's appealing this letter
July 8th, 2026
[50:30] and I think she's questioning
[50:33] or challenging number
for school aged care,
[50:37] which I also again was saying, well,
[50:41] the town says
school aged care did get approval
[50:47] in addition to kindergarten.
[50:48] Kindergarten spend for years.
[50:50] We know that that's a fact.
[50:52] It's the school aged care.
[50:55] That to me has been new
and I'm trying to find that timeline.
[50:59] I believe it happened
that school aged care
[51:04] was in the 2020 application,
and as well as the 20
[51:08] or the approval of 2020,
and then the 2021 resubmit
[51:14] because there was a new owner
also included in addition
[51:18] to kindergarten, school aged care,
I believe that's the record.
[51:23] So she's saying no school age care is not.
[51:28] And again, back in the 86 approvals,
it wasn't
[51:32] I think that the planning board,
[51:36] through the site plan process
approved school aged children.
[51:41] That's my reason why we're here.
[51:44] She's appealing that and we're saying,
well, let's look at the history.
[51:47] So that's what we're digging.
We're cranking out the sausage.
[51:50] So I'll let you answer.
[51:53] Again I have.
[51:55] Hold on as long as it's new information.
[51:57] Okay.
[51:58] Well,
I have the minutes of the 2020 meeting
[52:02] and they wanted to have a full day,
but they did not want school age kids
[52:06] they've listed.
I already told you, the age of the kids.
[52:09] And the letter from Jack
[52:12] and Joanne
wrote with him, because Derek told me
[52:16] that it is just on the school age kids.
[52:22] It's not a. 2020.
[52:24] It's not when they first started
in business.
[52:26] Like I just, you know,
they were a business
[52:29] that were doing preschool
and kindergarten.
[52:31] They were picking
kids up from kindergarten,
[52:32] bringing kids back from kindergarten.
[52:34] And I just eventually got really loud.
[52:36] And I didn't say anything right away
because I knew
[52:38] Sarah was going through a lot of issues
medically, and I just felt
[52:42] it wasn't the right time
to bring it up to the family.
[52:45] And I finally spoke to Mr.
[52:48] Robert and Mr.
[52:51] Michael outside when August 2024.
[52:53] And I told him that, you know, at first
it wasn't bad.
[52:56] It got really loud.
[52:57] I couldn't even read a book
outside anymore.
[52:59] Mr. Michael said to me, I apologize.
[53:02] You should be able to enjoy your yard. Mr.
[53:04] Robert said, well, kids playing outside
scream and make a lot of noise.
[53:08] January 2025 found out
Sarah was back to work some.
[53:12] So I called her and I told her my issues
[53:15] and about the age requirements
that I understood.
[53:19] They were approved. For.
[53:20] Group child daycare and the planning board
approved them for group child care.
[53:26] They didn't approve more.
[53:29] She said, well, I need my numbers.
[53:31] I'll talk to my staff.
[53:32] Then I called Joanne
and I don't know if you remember.
[53:35] You told me
that your daughter had moved back home.
[53:38] This has really nothing to do with it.
[53:39] But the dog moved back home.
[53:41] She works for Mont Mote and she
she couldn't handle three kids screaming.
[53:45] Stop talking over me, okay?
[53:47] All right. I'm sorry.
[53:49] So information into this, it has. No.
[53:51] She said that I could couldn't
handle the screaming kids.
[53:56] She wrote me a letter back that, you know,
[53:58] kindergarten was was
[54:01] approved for,
[54:04] permitted for the agricultural zone.
[54:07] But I was talking about the school age
kids talking up to five school age kids.
[54:14] Then I spoke with Derek,
who was the acting code enforcement
[54:18] agent at the time, and he officer
and it was hard to get a hold of him.
[54:23] I talked to him in January and he wrote
a letter to the road in school
[54:28] in November 2025 with all the changes they
made, and I didn't hear back from him.
[54:33] I finally got a hold of him in March
and he said everything was in compliance.
[54:37] And I said, well,
can you send me a letter for clients?
[54:39] And he didn't.
[54:40] So I spoke with a lawyer and I just wanted
to know, am I right about all this?
[54:44] And like the ordinance and everything?
[54:46] And and she looked into it
and she said the, the state
[54:52] didn't override, you know, our ordinance.
[54:56] But whether they did or not,
I still think that they need
[55:00] to have a conditional use permit
for the camp if they're going to have
[55:04] a bunch of school aged kids.
And that's really all I have to say.
[55:07] And all the other extra stuff,
it doesn't really matter.
[55:11] But I just don't think that that
[55:15] I think the planning board
really should look at it. And
[55:19] that's all right.
[55:20] Thank you.
[55:22] Is there anyone else from the public
that wishes to speak for this from
[55:28] the public?
[55:28] If there's anybody
who'd like to speak on this issue.
[55:33] Ma'am.
[55:33] Come on up.
[55:36] Okay.
[55:37] So I'm just going to ask you
to state your name and address, please.
[55:40] Kathleen Bozeman 202 Wallace.
[55:45] We live at 202.
[55:48] Owen. 212 and 216.
[55:51] So our property runs
across the street from the school.
[55:57] My grandkids have gone to the school.
[55:59] I've got a great niece there.
[56:03] I'm not arguing that
[56:06] we don't hear it,
but when there's a football game
[56:09] or a little league game,
come on up to my house.
[56:12] I hear you can hear every word,
[56:17] but you know what I mean.
[56:18] It's a town. It's.
[56:20] What are we going to do?
[56:21] Move the ball field. Be quieter.
[56:24] I don't, it's an inconvenience.
[56:27] I hear you,
[56:30] all these laws and stuff.
[56:31] I don't have a clue.
[56:32] But the school has been a good neighbor.
[56:38] They.
[56:40] When it was the previous owner,
we would let them park in our driveway
[56:44] for graduations
to try to keep them off the road.
[56:48] Something's going to go there and could be
maybe a swine farm or something.
[56:54] I don't know, could always get worse.
[56:57] I hear you, but I think
it's a nice business to have in town.
[57:03] It's servicing a lot of the community,
and a mile down
[57:08] the road is another huge school.
[57:12] That's it.
[57:13] Thank you very much.
[57:14] You're very welcome.
[57:16] The next person who wanted to speak,
please.
[57:26] Hi, everyone.
[57:27] My name is Mary Jenkins
and I live at 245 Wallace Road.
[57:31] The property abuts the Gage Farm
Schoolhouse property down.
[57:36] Oh, the microphone, please.
[57:39] All right.
[57:39] I'll just say that again
for anyone who didn't hear out there.
[57:43] Mary Fike
Jenkins, 245 Wallace Road property
[57:46] abuts the Gage Farm Schoolhouse property
along Dan Middlebrook
[57:50] and along the
the woods between our properties.
[57:55] I am not the property owner.
[57:57] My mom is, and she has some mobility
issues right now and can't be here,
[58:01] but asked me to just say
a couple of things on her behalf.
[58:06] I'll start though,
by saying that I grew up there.
[58:09] I had the pleasure
of living next door to the gages
[58:13] and then the Gilmore's
and then the Shapiro's, and
[58:16] am generally glad
that there is a school there
[58:19] that makes good use of the property.
[58:23] My mom's comments.
[58:25] Her name is Gail
Fike again, 245 Wallace Road.
[58:30] Just have to do with,
[58:33] you know,
[58:34] the importance of following protocol
[58:37] and requirements around
[58:41] around the proceedings and appeal process
and so on.
[58:45] So just wanted to just say,
[58:48] you know,
just please follow whatever the rules are,
[58:52] whatever the regulations are.
[58:55] Her main concern is about habitat
and environment.
[58:59] She'll say, yes, it's our property,
you know, Gage farm,
[59:03] schoolhouse and the fake residence at 245
Wallace Road.
[59:07] That's property, but it's not our land.
[59:09] And she has grave concerns
about wildlife habitat
[59:14] in the area. And,
[59:17] you know, I'm not saying for a minute
that that child care
[59:21] and the school age programing
and so on is incompatible
[59:25] with the approvals
or with the agricultural use.
[59:29] Clearly the statutes
and the regs allow for that.
[59:34] We just do see some inherent differences
[59:37] in the use of the property
[59:40] and the activity down along the brook,
which is also habitat for deer
[59:45] and other wildlife in the area,
which is maybe neither here nor there.
[59:51] It's just that the more the property
is used in an expansive way
[59:55] during the summer months,
that that is quite a bit different.
[1:00:00] But again, you know,
we're glad that there's a school there.
[1:00:03] Again, thanks. Thank you.
[1:00:07] Is there anyone else?
[1:00:08] Sorry. Sue.
[1:00:16] Good evening.
[1:00:17] I'm Tim Searles.
[1:00:19] I live at 311
Terrell Hill Road here in Goffstown.
[1:00:22] I'm a member of the planning board,
[1:00:23] but I'm not here
on behalf of the Planning Board.
[1:00:28] A couple of things.
[1:00:30] Few things.
[1:00:30] First, correct me if I'm wrong, but state
law overrides local law.
[1:00:35] Local jurisdiction. Right.
[1:00:37] So if they have a state license
for 65 kids.
[1:00:43] And in the minutes that Mrs.
[1:00:47] Gage was referring to,
[1:00:50] they applied
for a kindergarten daycare center.
[1:00:54] So if their license for 65 kids
have those licenses,
[1:00:57] I think it should be able to stand
that they should be able to.
[1:01:00] And in that same in those same minutes,
[1:01:04] they stated the hours of operation 632, 6
[1:01:07] or 7, whatever it was, the estate of
the the hours of operation.
[1:01:13] So between that.
[1:01:17] Between that, that
[1:01:19] and as far as the wildlife, it's
no more destructive than a farm
[1:01:23] being there before where they had
horses probably, or whatever, or cattle
[1:01:29] trotting through the brook, probably,
and probably
[1:01:32] doing the same amount of regional impact
as a two ton or as a one
[1:01:36] ton animal would going up
only it's just divided
[1:01:40] into 65 kids.
[1:01:44] Other than that,
[1:01:47] this whole thing, this whole
appeal process is kind of frustrating.
[1:01:51] But like,
[1:01:53] I don't see in my limited capacity,
[1:01:58] in my limited understanding of what's
going on, I don't see why we're here.
[1:02:03] But she has every right to appeal.
[1:02:05] I think the appeal should be denied.
[1:02:07] Thank you.
[1:02:11] Anyone else from the public?
[1:02:14] With that,
I will close the public hearing and
[1:02:18] the board.
[1:02:19] I think someone wanted to.
[1:02:21] Oh, sorry.
[1:02:21] Was there someone else?
[1:02:22] Oh. I'm sorry.
I will reopen the public hearing.
[1:02:25] Sorry.
[1:02:25] We'll scratch that out.
[1:02:28] Hi, everyone.
[1:02:30] Good evening.
[1:02:32] All right.
[1:02:32] When you.
[1:02:32] When you work in a classroom, I'm
looking for high.
[1:02:37] Up. Hi, I'm Sarah Stone.
[1:02:40] I'm a part owner and director of Cage
Farm Schoolhouse.
[1:02:45] I'm also the daughter of the owners,
David.
[1:02:47] Nancy. Roberta.
[1:02:49] I'm Michael O'Keefe,
[1:02:50] and I'm the assistant director
and outdoor learning specialist.
[1:02:54] I the reason why we're even here
[1:02:57] about Cage Farm is that I was a student
of New Orleans School back in the mid 80s.
[1:03:02] I have a master's in early childhood.
[1:03:04] I have two young boys
that I just went through childcare,
[1:03:08] trying to find the perfect spot
for my kid, my kids.
[1:03:11] Excuse me?
[1:03:13] My parents gave me the opportunity
to buy the property.
[1:03:15] As former alumni,
parents of New Morning School.
[1:03:20] We just loved the property.
[1:03:21] Loved the experience that provided.
[1:03:24] And we're from Bedford
and it's just nothing like that property.
[1:03:28] I wouldn't be here starting a business
if it wasn't for that property.
[1:03:33] I have been a huge part
of becoming part of the community
[1:03:39] with different events around town.
[1:03:42] There is a severe need
[1:03:46] for childcare, good childcare.
[1:03:49] As a former first grade
[1:03:50] teacher and kindergarten teacher
in the public school system.
[1:03:53] Kids are coming to me.
[1:03:55] Families were coming to me
[1:03:56] feeling like they were prepared
and ready for first grade.
[1:04:00] If you have any kids
that have been first grade or higher,
[1:04:04] the expectations of first grade
[1:04:06] is so different than when I grew up.
[1:04:10] These parents would invest
in really good programs,
[1:04:12] and they would come to my first grade
public school
[1:04:15] in Manchester, New Hampshire.
[1:04:17] Not a you no public school.
[1:04:19] That's average in our state.
[1:04:22] And they would be blown away
by the expectations.
[1:04:25] I wanted to provide a space
[1:04:28] that had full curriculum, full
[1:04:32] classrooms of space that parents felt like
their money was going to good use.
[1:04:37] It wasn't just childcare. It was a school.
[1:04:40] It was a place where parents felt like
they were part of the community.
[1:04:44] They felt connected.
[1:04:46] Their kids were learning.
[1:04:47] But I also having two boys
knew that the only place
[1:04:50] I would want to start a school and leave
my pension is 215 Walls Road.
[1:04:56] It provides a space
that has an outdoor space for kids.
[1:05:00] As a working mom, myself
and my husband being a police officer
[1:05:03] at Manchester, we have an Army reserves.
[1:05:06] We have very limited
time to do all the things
[1:05:08] we want to do with our kids,
like go on a walk,
[1:05:12] be in nature, go sledding in the winter,
we get home from work, it's time for bed.
[1:05:17] It's time for nighttime.
[1:05:19] Hopefully we get dinner
and we're off to bed.
[1:05:22] So that was my vision
when I started Gage Barton.
[1:05:25] I brought Mr. Michael.
[1:05:27] Michael O'Keefe
along as my assistant director.
[1:05:31] He is our outdoor specialist.
[1:05:34] He spends time with kids,
so I want to make sure
[1:05:37] he speaks on behalf of farm.
[1:05:41] I will pass this around if that's okay.
[1:05:44] It does have our state license
that we're okay for 65.
[1:05:48] We have been approved
for actually more kids than 65
[1:05:52] since the state changed their ratio.
[1:05:56] Sorry, not the ratio.
[1:05:57] Excuse me.
[1:05:58] There's square footage from 40 square foot
[1:06:01] space for per child to 35.
[1:06:04] So we have been approved for more.
[1:06:06] I have not come to
you asking for more kids.
[1:06:09] I could, but I haven't.
[1:06:12] I am happy with 65.
[1:06:15] I think it's a good number.
[1:06:16] It's like where we're at right now.
[1:06:19] I'm not saying
[1:06:19] I'm not going to do it in the future,
but I just want you to know that it's
[1:06:22] actually under
what the state is allowing us to have.
[1:06:26] Just real quick. Yeah, please.
[1:06:28] The license that you were talking about it
currently does state 65
[1:06:32] is a correct yes. Yeah.
[1:06:34] The one could change. Correct.
[1:06:35] And I do have an email from the state
saying that they recommend us
[1:06:40] actually upping our numbers,
but I have not done so.
[1:06:43] Our state license,
the reason why you had two times
[1:06:47] is because we get a new license
every three years.
[1:06:50] And we started in 2021 to the 2022
school year.
[1:06:53] So we are now it's expiring in 2027.
[1:06:57] Just so you all know that.
[1:06:58] And our summer camp
is under our state license.
[1:07:01] So it's really just the same program
moving forward.
[1:07:04] So we still have four year
olds in a class.
[1:07:08] We still have kindergartners in a class.
[1:07:11] And then we have older students
who also need care during the summertime.
[1:07:15] And it's it's not a really a different
programs, the same program, same license.
[1:07:23] The state actually
[1:07:23] recommended us to do a camp license
to actually hold two licenses.
[1:07:28] We have chosen not to do that.
[1:07:29] So our program, just like Michael
said, is the same exact license.
[1:07:34] We just call it summer camp.
[1:07:37] It is from age two and a half
[1:07:39] to 12 years old, but
we are allowed infants if we wanted to.
[1:07:44] But we hold our our license from
[1:07:47] two and a half years old to 12.
[1:07:50] With that said, it is like you said,
it's the same license, same childcare.
[1:07:56] Parents need full time care.
They need summer.
[1:07:58] It's they need full time care.
[1:08:00] And there's a huge need.
[1:08:02] We are summer camp, I'm proud to say.
[1:08:05] But I was also very surprised.
[1:08:07] Just says something
about what we have in our town,
[1:08:12] in our
[1:08:12] local surrounding communities, is that our
our summer camp
[1:08:18] filled up within an hour
of putting it out there
[1:08:23] totally full.
[1:08:25] Parents are begging to get their kids
in it.
[1:08:29] Is that.
[1:08:30] Yeah, it's a need. It's a huge need.
[1:08:33] Parents are asking us to be open
for holiday breaks.
[1:08:38] They need care. People need work.
[1:08:40] But we also are.
[1:08:42] I feel we've been extremely respectful
of our neighbors
[1:08:47] in the book at the beginning.
[1:08:50] It shows kind of the schedule of the
summer camp and how it's how we schedule.
[1:08:55] Yeah, we spread out.
[1:08:57] We're not all in the same spot
for a large period of time.
[1:09:02] Our aftercare goes from 230
at the earliest, is when we get back with
[1:09:07] our first van with kids
[1:09:10] from New Boston,
and then it goes until 530,
[1:09:13] and then that's our school age
aftercare during the school year.
[1:09:18] Yeah, it just shows you that we
break it up within groups of age groups.
[1:09:24] So there are 30 kids plus
[1:09:27] depending on the day that are there's
definitely 15 in each group.
[1:09:31] So we have four groups.
[1:09:31] So it was 15.
[1:09:32] In our kids that are entering pre-K
and kindergarten, there's 15
[1:09:38] maybe up to 18
that are entering into first grade.
[1:09:43] And then but they were
kindergartners are entering first grade,
[1:09:47] and then we have two older groups
that are about 15 each that are
[1:09:52] entering second grade up to fifth grade.
[1:09:55] I was sorry, accuse me sixth grade.
[1:09:58] That 12 year. Old.
[1:09:59] Mark, that 12 year old Mark. Exactly.
[1:10:02] So we we spent people ask him,
[1:10:04] how do you have a camp for four year
olds up to 12 year olds?
[1:10:08] And it's like, well,
we've split them up by their their age.
[1:10:11] What's appropriate.
[1:10:12] So our our younger group,
which is more than half of our camp,
[1:10:17] is as you'll see in our schedule,
they're indoors quite a bit.
[1:10:21] And it's not that
[1:10:22] we don't want them to be outdoors, it's
because they need to have snack in an area
[1:10:26] that is clean, and they are able to be
in a spot where they can actually sit.
[1:10:30] Because the picnic tables
[1:10:31] aren't great for our little guys,
they need to have rest time.
[1:10:35] It is mandated by our state license
that they have rest time for an hour
[1:10:40] if they're entering kindergarten
or younger, and so we have them inside
[1:10:44] having rest.
[1:10:45] We call it mean time
because they don't like nap time.
[1:10:47] But we do have that time
with our kiddos that are. Yes.
[1:10:52] And then we also have, like Michael said,
we do stations.
[1:10:56] So there's a group
that's down by the brook.
[1:10:59] So again 15 kids, it's
not 65 running through the brook
[1:11:02] like crazy and ruining our property
and our environment.
[1:11:06] We have 15 kids that are up by the tent
that are doing crafts, making necklaces,
[1:11:11] making bracelets. They're not screaming.
[1:11:13] I mean, kids are going to be loud.
[1:11:15] I'm not saying they aren't,
but we don't have kids
[1:11:18] that are just scratching like,
I don't like screaming.
[1:11:21] I'll tell you, I love kids, I love play,
I love when they're laughing.
[1:11:25] I love when they're, you know, running
after somebody and making lots of noise.
[1:11:30] Yes, but we don't have kids
that just scream.
[1:11:32] We don't have infants,
we don't have toddlers.
[1:11:35] We don't even have three year
olds in our summer camp because it's
[1:11:38] a different environment
than our regular school days.
[1:11:42] So I just, you know, at the most
there's when she's
[1:11:46] talking about the outdoor classroom,
we were approved for that.
[1:11:49] We do have kitchens,
but it's part of our property.
[1:11:52] We have breeze garden beds, but they're
all spread out doing different things.
[1:11:56] And we do that for a reason for safety,
[1:11:59] for the enjoyment of kids
not being cluttered in one spot.
[1:12:02] They're able to enjoy
all that we have to offer at Gage,
[1:12:06] but part of that's indoors
and we don't go outside.
[1:12:10] Our morning care is from 7 to 8:00.
[1:12:12] We do not go outside
until 8:00 due to staffing.
[1:12:16] I only have a certain amount
that I do for morning care
[1:12:19] because I can't get the staffing
for that early, and we do
[1:12:23] start at 7 a.m., not 6 a.m.,
which was approved, but we started seven.
[1:12:29] Hour aftercare.
[1:12:30] We give a discount until 430,
so most of the kids are gone by 430.
[1:12:34] We have truly like eight kids until 530.
[1:12:39] We are out.
[1:12:40] We are inside the entire campus, inside
when it's too hot,
[1:12:43] which we've had a lot of hot days.
[1:12:45] We do have AC in our building
and if it rains they're fully indoors,
[1:12:50] so it's not a total outdoor program
where we're outside all day
[1:12:53] long with 65 kids
just running around and screaming.
[1:12:57] It's very organized.
[1:12:58] It is structured.
[1:12:59] Any parent that is part of our gauge for
[1:13:01] our family will tell you
it's not just childcare, it is a school.
[1:13:05] It's a program.
[1:13:07] We are trying to bring that love of nature
into these young kids
[1:13:11] that deserve it so much, but
also giving them more of that curriculum
[1:13:15] and just a true
balance is what we do at Gage Firm.
[1:13:19] Do you want to speak for the environment,
please, because you're.
[1:13:22] Outdoor specialist sure.
[1:13:24] To put you on. The spot.
[1:13:25] So we we do try to mitigate
[1:13:29] erosion on in some of our areas.
[1:13:32] We try to build
water stops in when our stream is rushing,
[1:13:36] so we can keep our frogs and our fish
[1:13:39] and our other aquatic critters alive.
[1:13:43] We we
[1:13:44] find salamanders
and we don't pick them up.
[1:13:48] We just watch them.
[1:13:50] We try not to expose the critters
that we see to all of our human stuff.
[1:13:54] We try to leave no trace and and watch.
[1:13:59] So it's really not just like a place where
we're just running wild in the woods,
[1:14:03] like we really teach the kids
all those things and how important
[1:14:07] it is to take care of, you know,
the animals and plants and everything.
[1:14:11] So and I also wanted
to just speak on the traffic.
[1:14:15] I know we're not here for the traffic,
but I was told by Adam, who's
[1:14:20] the owner of Green Thumb,
that it was okay to share this,
[1:14:23] but he said that, you know, he's
got a business right across the street.
[1:14:28] He's like, I have loud equipment.
[1:14:29] I'm a landscaper.
[1:14:31] He's like,
you guys, I've never had any issues
[1:14:34] with getting my equipment
in and out of Wallace Road.
[1:14:38] You have never had people, even two cars
[1:14:41] waiting to pull in to your drop off.
[1:14:44] We have a window of time
that we offer for free for parents
[1:14:47] to drop off from 8:00 to 830,
so they're not all there all at once.
[1:14:52] We stagger it out for the reason of
the town, for the reason of our neighbors,
[1:14:57] for the reason of everyone
just to make sure.
[1:14:59] And I'm not really sure
I want to speak upon
[1:15:02] what she said,
saying that I need to check my numbers.
[1:15:05] I never said that, but what I said was,
I'm so sorry you feel that way.
[1:15:09] We have like, I truly still care
[1:15:13] so much for that and the the history.
[1:15:16] We even named our business after the
history of the property and the family.
[1:15:23] We were going to do
Red red barn schoolhouse,
[1:15:26] but we decided to cage Farm Schoolhouse
to keep the history going.
[1:15:31] We have a great connection.
[1:15:33] I was kind of surprised
that it has come to this, to be honest,
[1:15:36] because I feel like we communicate
really well.
[1:15:38] We've always been friendly neighbors, but
[1:15:41] what I did say to her
is that I'm so sorry you feel this way.
[1:15:45] I cannot change my business model
or my business plan.
[1:15:50] Neither kept my parents
because we've been approved for it.
[1:15:53] And this is we don't live there.
[1:15:55] This is we've put a lot of money.
[1:15:58] We went through an SBA loan
[1:16:00] because I was school teacher
and my parents are in retirement.
[1:16:04] We went through SB alone
and we spent a lot of money
[1:16:07] getting the best of like
making sure the property
[1:16:10] looked beautiful for the town,
making sure that we have like
[1:16:14] we've
we've added so much to that property.
[1:16:18] So anyways, I just I want you to know,
I didn't say the numbers.
[1:16:22] I did say I can't change my business plan
due to
[1:16:26] you feeling it's too loud
and I'm sorry you feel that way.
[1:16:29] And I was very apologetic
that I felt that she felt that way.
[1:16:32] But it wasn't going
to change anything either.
[1:16:36] Just.
[1:16:36] Sorry. The last thing.
[1:16:37] I'm talking circles and I am recovering
from leukemia three times, so I apologize.
[1:16:43] My speech and everything's a little off,
but the traffic situation.
[1:16:50] Again,
I know we're not talking about that,
[1:16:52] but the Henry Bridge was closed,
so I was told by a lot of parents
[1:16:56] that there was a lot of traffic
coming through Wallace Road due to that,
[1:17:00] as well as a partial close of a bridge
near.
[1:17:05] Terrell Hill. Yeah.
[1:17:07] So we did have two accidents
this summer on Wallace Road.
[1:17:11] Pretty bad accidents.
[1:17:12] When we called in ourselves that people
went off into the ditch we did offer.
[1:17:18] The policeman was very thankful
to our school actually, because we we
[1:17:23] he shut down the road right there,
and we actually use our private driveway
[1:17:27] to turn everybody around and go back
during our aftercare pick up hours, which.
[1:17:32] Is. Not a great timing for an accident.
[1:17:35] But we made it work
because we're community members.
[1:17:40] We volunteered at the Pumpkin Regatta.
[1:17:42] We've just
[1:17:43] we've tried to be really good neighbors
and really good community members.
[1:17:47] And yeah. That's. All. I have to say.
[1:17:50] Thank you for your time.
Do you have any questions. For me?
[1:17:54] I just have.
[1:17:56] I have one question. Yeah. Please.
[1:17:58] Clearly your facility has been in front
of the planning board in the past,
[1:18:02] but if by
[1:18:05] some turn of events,
[1:18:07] this board said, yeah,
you got to go back to the planning board,
[1:18:10] would you take that as an opportunity
to increase the number of students
[1:18:13] from 65 to a larger number
that the state would agree to?
[1:18:18] Parents would love me to do
that, would love for me to do that?
[1:18:23] We are in a wait list up to 2030.
[1:18:26] Just to give everyone perspective.
[1:18:27] We have about 70 kids on a wait
list for this upcoming school year.
[1:18:32] Would I like to offer that?
[1:18:34] Yes. As a business owner,
would it make sense?
[1:18:37] Of course it would.
[1:18:38] We have a big property, big expense
for small, only three classrooms per day.
[1:18:44] We did extend the our half day
[1:18:47] kindergarten
to help with the wraparound programs.
[1:18:49] The why is on a wait list.
[1:18:51] People are begging to get that half day K
[1:18:55] so would I do it?
[1:18:57] I'm not saying I wouldn't,
but I can't really.
[1:19:02] I'm not sure I it's a good
yeah for my staff.
[1:19:06] I want them to be comfortable,
I want them I want as a parent
[1:19:10] feel like
they're not in a class with 25 students.
[1:19:13] That's public school.
I came from public school.
[1:19:15] I don't want to do that.
[1:19:16] But at the same time,
I have to make enough money
[1:19:19] to support my parents
that put their retirement money
[1:19:22] into this property
and belief in me to make this worth
[1:19:26] their investment.
[1:19:29] And also, yeah, so it's a tough balance.
[1:19:32] Like I of course
I have a big loan to fill.
[1:19:35] I have I have a lot of money
invested into this business.
[1:19:38] My parents, of course do, but I'm
[1:19:41] the one responsible to pay that loan. So
[1:19:46] yeah,
I don't know how to answer that question.
[1:19:48] I just I would not overflow my anyone
[1:19:51] that knows me as a parent to me or
[1:19:55] someone that works for me, they know that
[1:19:57] I would not just
I don't add kids just to add kids.
[1:20:01] I want it to be a good experience
for everyone involved.
[1:20:06] Anyone else?
[1:20:08] I have a very easy one. Yeah.
[1:20:10] You don't need any waivers to operate
any of your any of your programs
[1:20:14] from the state. Okay. Thank you. Welcome.
[1:20:17] Thank you.
[1:20:18] Thank you for your time.
[1:20:20] Okay.
[1:20:20] One last chance. Anyone in the up, sir?
[1:20:23] All right.
[1:20:25] I'm the father.
[1:20:29] Do you still have to tell us your name?
[1:20:33] David.
[1:20:33] Roberta.
[1:20:37] My wife Nancy.
[1:20:37] And I
[1:20:39] loved. The new morning school.
[1:20:42] We know the Shapiro's closely.
[1:20:46] I'm the one that was driving by down
[1:20:49] Wallace Road
when the property went up for sale.
[1:20:53] I'm the one that called Sarah and said,
boy, if you ever wanted to change lanes
[1:20:57] where you went to school with up for sale.
[1:21:02] I'm the one that
[1:21:05] put together a business plan.
[1:21:07] I went to the bank
and they when I had retired and they said,
[1:21:13] I said, I'd like to buy this property
and have it retrofitted
[1:21:16] back to a school and get it furnished.
[1:21:18] And can we do this?
[1:21:19] And they asked what my income was, and I
[1:21:23] said,
Social Security required distributions.
[1:21:26] They said, you don't qualify, but
you might be a really good SBA candidate.
[1:21:31] And so we started the process.
[1:21:35] I met with Curt Lauer, architect in town,
[1:21:38] and the people that had met earlier
to do the school.
[1:21:43] They backed away
because to purchase the property,
[1:21:47] to do all the incredible upgrades
that are required for it,
[1:21:51] to meet all the current codes, to have it
hardwired into the fire department,
[1:21:57] to have the whole wiring down in
the school that have all the
[1:22:02] all the upgrades,
[1:22:04] new subject, new everything to have it
[1:22:08] meet code.
[1:22:11] Was quite an undertaking.
[1:22:13] And then so he
[1:22:17] the original people
were going to use the upstairs apartment
[1:22:20] where the Shapiro's lived
to have the space.
[1:22:23] It would require a
[1:22:27] sprinkler system.
[1:22:28] And because it's a private well,
[1:22:31] you'd have to have a certified public
water system to have the school now
[1:22:35] and to do that off a well, it was cost
prohibitive to have a reservoir.
[1:22:40] So Kurt came up with a plan
to do the third classroom in the basement.
[1:22:44] That was the addition in 1986,
came up with a plan.
[1:22:48] He said.
[1:22:49] I think the numbers would work
with our year round program.
[1:22:52] I put the business plan
together, the bank and the SBA.
[1:22:59] Thought my plan was was solid.
[1:23:02] Sarah started to work with the state
to find out what it would take to get
[1:23:06] licensed.
[1:23:07] And then I came to the town
and I know all of the ministries
[1:23:11] because I came and said,
I don't know anything about this.
[1:23:14] Here's my business plan.
[1:23:16] Can we do this?
[1:23:18] And I worked
and I mean, I'm in there quite frequently.
[1:23:24] I know almost everybody.
[1:23:25] And I you know,
they tell me what to do and I try to do
[1:23:28] it, and.
[1:23:32] It's a it's so far away from whatever
I what I did.
[1:23:36] I'm just trying to pass it forward
and let a daughter do follow her passion.
[1:23:40] And I could not have got the bank loan
[1:23:45] without the approval from the town.
[1:23:48] I could have.
[1:23:49] We couldn't have gone through the SBA
process, and we wouldn't be here today
[1:23:53] unless everyone that was financing
this whole thing was assured
[1:23:58] that we had done our due diligence
and had gone through proper process.
[1:24:03] And and I just hope that we did that and,
[1:24:06] and that we're doing things in accordance.
[1:24:10] And I can tell you if,
when the when the team came out
[1:24:13] this summer, we just opened the door
and they walked through with us the
[1:24:16] the past fire chief
not to get too derailed.
[1:24:23] When Vassar Electric was
[1:24:26] pointing in all doing
all the electric rewiring.
[1:24:30] Apparently
they put the wrong light bulbs in with.
[1:24:34] They had to redo the whole ceilings
and stuff for a fire code,
[1:24:37] and he required them to redo every light
fixture to meet code.
[1:24:43] And and
[1:24:46] safety is my responsibility,
[1:24:49] and I don't want to ever do anything
that's going to jeopardize anything.
[1:24:53] And I'm going to
if somebody says do something,
[1:24:57] I try to find out a way to get it done.
[1:25:00] Right now, we're in the process
of restoring the barn.
[1:25:04] I just worked with team engineering
to put a plan together.
[1:25:09] So it's sort of we've been working
[1:25:13] in a certified safe this past summer.
[1:25:17] We took some eaves off
because I was afraid they might fall.
[1:25:20] And it just
I think we have tried to be good
[1:25:25] stewards, good neighbors
and to be compliant.
[1:25:29] And if we ever step out of line,
[1:25:33] we will do everything we possibly can
to bring it into compliance.
[1:25:37] I ran a
[1:25:39] business small medical practice
for 40 years.
[1:25:42] I know medical compliance.
[1:25:44] I, I live that life
[1:25:47] and and safety
[1:25:50] is in compliance are just top priorities.
[1:25:54] That's my area of responsibility.
[1:25:56] So I work with Jack, I work,
I mean all the time.
[1:26:00] Tell me what I need to do
and I'll do it anyway.
[1:26:03] That's our story.
[1:26:04] I hope that we've been compliant,
but I can assure you, if
[1:26:08] if there's any issues that come up
from anywhere, we will do whatever
[1:26:12] we can do to be good stewards.
[1:26:15] On the parking part we put in, Curt
recommended three drop off lanes.
[1:26:21] We got the parking all done
so we don't have parking.
[1:26:24] Any issues that have come to our attention
we've addressed.
[1:26:27] We put signs up
for slow traffic for school,
[1:26:32] and we're always
[1:26:33] open for anything
we need to do to be better.
[1:26:37] It's 15 acres, and much as they
[1:26:40] stated, much of what's being done,
it's done
[1:26:43] way down below, off the road away.
[1:26:47] We wanted to get the playground
that was off to the right, down
[1:26:50] under, out, back
and and to do the outdoor.
[1:26:53] You have raised garden beds, do stuff
[1:26:56] that kids don't get to do today
and the parents love it.
[1:26:59] The golf community loves it
where they all love it
[1:27:03] because there's nothing like it.
[1:27:05] And we're fortunate
to have two people behind me that
[1:27:10] they're following their passion,
and that's what parents always want.
[1:27:12] So thank you for your time.
[1:27:14] Thank you.
[1:27:15] I don't know if there's any questions.
[1:27:19] Thank you sir. Thank you.
[1:27:23] Is there anyone else?
[1:27:26] I do want to say traffic's wonderful.
[1:27:29] They've done wonderful with parking.
[1:27:33] I think this has gone
really kind of blown out.
[1:27:35] Do you have a copy
of my original complaint in your packet?
[1:27:38] Or just the letter from Jack?
[1:27:41] They have the whole thing. My.
[1:27:45] My my complaint was very small.
[1:27:47] It doesn't complain.
[1:27:48] And yes,
[1:27:49] we did have a really great relationship
and I tried bringing pictures
[1:27:53] to the property.
[1:27:53] Everything. Great.
[1:27:54] Great relationship.
[1:27:55] This all had to do with the noise,
the extra, the extra, the extra programs
[1:27:59] they have. That's all.
[1:28:00] And all I'm saying is,
I think the planning board to look at it
[1:28:04] because they did not go to the planning
door,
[1:28:07] they didn't have to go
to the planning board, so they haven't.
[1:28:10] So Charlie, you asked about
if they didn't go to the planning board
[1:28:13] because they didn't need to
for the preschool, that's all.
[1:28:17] Thank you.
[1:28:17] But I'll be extra.
[1:28:18] They they have done really good.
[1:28:21] And we did work together really good.
[1:28:23] This is just a little thing, that's all.
[1:28:26] Not all the other stuff
I'm complaining about.
[1:28:28] Thanks. Thank you.
[1:28:31] Anyone else?
[1:28:34] Okay.
[1:28:34] Seeing none, I'm
going to close the public hearing. And.
[1:28:40] I'd like to address.
[1:28:42] I'm sorry.
[1:28:44] Oh. Thank you.
[1:28:46] You did the minutes, right,
so you would be next.
[1:28:49] Okay.
[1:28:51] I'd like to address
the standing of the appeal.
[1:28:54] One second. Otherwise, you'll kill me.
[1:28:57] I hereby a
[1:29:00] appoint you as the voting alternate.
[1:29:02] Sorry.
[1:29:03] Okay. Well, that would be Alan, right?
[1:29:06] I don't think this has. Anything for.
The Davis Alan.
[1:29:09] Thank you.
[1:29:09] I don't believe this has
a regional development issue.
[1:29:12] Oh, yeah. That's right.
[1:29:13] We need that, too.
I don't believe it does.
[1:29:16] It's going to feel something,
but I make motion that it has no impact.
[1:29:21] Second. Second.
[1:29:22] All in favor? Christine?
[1:29:25] Oh, actually, yeah.
[1:29:26] This is all part of this.
[1:29:28] Okay. All in favor?
[1:29:30] Opposed? Motion carries.
[1:29:32] There is no regional impact.
[1:29:34] And I want to get the next step
that I think the zoning board has
[1:29:38] the case for hearing the request.
[1:29:41] It's an appeal
of an administrative decision.
[1:29:44] The letter that was written July 8th,
[1:29:47] 2026 wasn't overly
[1:29:51] specific, with
[1:29:54] sections and verbiage of numbers,
just that indicated
[1:29:57] the uses that number for being school
aged care, which I think was contained.
[1:30:02] They've expanded what it was way back.
[1:30:06] We we followed that history.
[1:30:08] I tried to get us to get that history
for findings of fact,
[1:30:14] and we've got some of the
[1:30:16] planning board minutes from 2020.
[1:30:19] And they discussed that.
[1:30:20] It was later
became an after school center as
[1:30:23] well.
[1:30:26] New morning
school has been closed for some time,
[1:30:30] but then it's a change
from its present use.
[1:30:33] We need to review that.
[1:30:34] That was Jim Raymond for planning Board,
Joanne Duffy said.
[1:30:39] That's why they're here for conditional
use permit.
[1:30:42] That meeting they came in for, I believe,
a site plan and a conditional use permit.
[1:30:49] Jim Raymond says a condition is permanent.
[1:30:50] Site can only view it done
at the same time.
[1:30:53] He indicated the condition use permits
the zoning matter
[1:30:57] site fans a planning matter.
[1:31:00] I don't believe that's true.
[1:31:01] True because the condition use permits
granted from the zoning ordinance
[1:31:05] and the planning board
typically executes that.
[1:31:10] So then we fast forward
to the notice of decision
[1:31:13] from that meeting and the planning board.
[1:31:17] And said the waiver requests were granted.
[1:31:20] And it's a conditional use request.
[1:31:24] And they made a motion
to grant the waivers.
[1:31:27] But all the conditional use issues
made a motion to approve the condition
[1:31:32] use permit based on the representation
of the applications.
[1:31:35] And it got seconded and they dealt
with the conditional use permit.
[1:31:39] Yeah. Planning board dealt with that
[1:31:42] which had some expanded use.
[1:31:47] Then the site plan.
[1:31:49] They made a waiver to the requirement
[1:31:53] that didn't have to be an engineered plan,
but to use a marked up plan.
[1:31:56] That was red line from the 86 site plan.
[1:31:59] So the planning board established
the history that they acted on a site plan
[1:32:04] and conditional use permit
that included school
[1:32:07] age children greater than five.
[1:32:10] So I'm satisfied that.
[1:32:15] Complies and that the applicant hasn't.
[1:32:19] I don't see why
there's any argument for that.
[1:32:21] It doesn't,
but that's just my opinion for the moment.
[1:32:25] Trying to follow this. It's
very convoluted.
[1:32:27] A lot of history here.
[1:32:28] Look how thick the packet is.
[1:32:30] Yeah,
[1:32:32] I don't know if anybody else wants added
any other comment to that.
[1:32:36] Well, just without going into Bruce's
convoluted history,
[1:32:40] I think that, you know what
we're being asked to do by having them
[1:32:45] go to the planning board for conditional
use permit,
[1:32:48] is adding an additional requirement
to what they've already gone
[1:32:54] over for their state licensing,
[1:32:56] which I don't think
is within the legal purview of this board.
[1:33:00] I just, you know, I just don't
[1:33:03] find that,
you know, the appeal has any merit.
[1:33:07] I don't think the planning board
would accept an application
[1:33:10] with an issue because they'd say,
we've already done one.
[1:33:13] They granted a waiver or whatever
it was for it.
[1:33:17] That's that's.
[1:33:18] Sure.
[1:33:18] I just think that the
the heart of the issue is
[1:33:21] the applicant is wondering,
are they following all the rules?
[1:33:24] And I think
[1:33:25] from what we've gathered, I think that
they are following all the rules and their
[1:33:30] their licenses are all valid
and being followed.
[1:33:36] My only comment was given, given the,
[1:33:41] the pieces of their license
[1:33:43] and our lack of
[1:33:46] complete definition in our table of uses.
[1:33:50] I actually, based on their license
and description,
[1:33:55] would consider it a kindergarten
or elementary school as well.
[1:33:59] So given that that is permitted
by right in agricultural zone.
[1:34:04] So I personally wouldn't
[1:34:08] see a zoning need
for a conditional use permit period.
[1:34:13] That's my take on this.
[1:34:17] So that being said,
[1:34:19] is there any further discussion
or is there a motion.
[1:34:23] Offer, a motion that we reject
[1:34:27] the application to the
[1:34:30] we uphold the zoning officers decision
[1:34:35] that it does not require
a conditional use permit
[1:34:40] for this activity.
[1:34:42] Okay. Motion upholding.
[1:34:44] The letter.
[1:34:46] Second by John.
[1:34:47] All in favor? II opposed.
[1:34:51] Motion carries.
[1:35:01] How about a about a three minute.
[1:35:02] Break.
[1:35:03] For the next one. We will now.
[1:35:06] Enter into a legal
with a five minute break
[1:35:09] and restart at 8:30 p.m..
[1:40:09] So we will resume the meeting
[1:40:10] now for this next hearing.
[1:40:15] Charlie, you will be voting alternate.
[1:40:17] Please.
[1:40:20] Craig. Drawback.
[1:40:21] Applicant owner is seeking variances
to remove and rebuild a garage
[1:40:25] that is five feet from the side property
lines, whereas a 25 side
[1:40:29] setback is required for section
4.3 of the ordinance.
[1:40:33] The proposed structures will also exceed
the maximum allowable ten building
[1:40:38] coverage on the lot per section
4.3 of the town's only ordinance,
[1:40:42] as the structures
will approximately cover 15.1% of the lot.
[1:40:47] The property is located at 129 Mountain
Base Road.
[1:40:50] Map 41, lot 2000. I'm sorry.
[1:40:53] Zoned agricultural.
[1:40:55] We have a motion for regional impact.
[1:40:58] I'll move. No regional impact. Motion for.
[1:41:01] Second round. Second for Bruce.
[1:41:03] All in favor? Aye. Opposed?
[1:41:06] Motion carries.
[1:41:09] Applicant to come on up.
[1:41:11] I have a question.
[1:41:12] Is Charlie
the voting alternate in this one? Yep.
[1:41:22] Who you are.
[1:41:23] And my name is correct.
[1:41:25] I hope the fact that I don't have ten
people supporting me doesn't
[1:41:29] go against me.
[1:41:32] Yeah.
[1:41:32] So I was here in April
for something similar
[1:41:35] on the same property,
[1:41:38] for a variance on
[1:41:40] building a house that's already underway.
[1:41:43] And yes, I hope to do.
[1:41:45] I wasn't planning on doing this
with the garage, but the current one is
[1:41:51] the front of.
[1:41:51] It's almost half a foot
[1:41:55] lower than the back,
so it's kind of sinking.
[1:41:58] And I felt like
I didn't realize that in April
[1:42:02] when I was coming for the first variance,
[1:42:06] but I'm.
[1:42:08] Wanting to basically replace
the garage structure and the
[1:42:14] replace it with the
[1:42:15] garage and the same exact place
[1:42:18] of the same exact footprint.
[1:42:23] That's basically it.
[1:42:27] I talked to my the the butter next to me.
[1:42:31] Who's the five foot
[1:42:34] property line,
the butter mentioned in there.
[1:42:37] And he's like, well, if you need to,
I don't intend to do that.
[1:42:43] But just just for note.
[1:42:49] I don't think that.
[1:42:54] Based on the House
[1:42:58] not being an issue for the reasons
stated in there,
[1:43:01] I feel like the garage
should be a similar issue.
[1:43:06] Craig, did you consider
[1:43:08] attaching the garage to the house
in some way
[1:43:12] to try to consolidate the footprint?
[1:43:19] Is your house design done?
[1:43:22] I have framing and a roof at this point.
[1:43:25] Oh. I'm sorry.
[1:43:26] Yep. I get it, kind of.
[1:43:31] Figuring out the garage
[1:43:34] part and the fact that it was sinking
and everything kind of happened
[1:43:38] after things were already ready in motion
with the with the house.
[1:43:44] That makes sense. Yeah.
[1:43:47] This was the trolley horse.
[1:43:48] Correct. Yeah. Okay, I got you.
[1:43:52] So the 15.
[1:43:54] Point 1% coverage of the lot
is the same right now as it will be after.
[1:43:59] That's not a changing number
one way or another. Correct.
[1:44:02] Because I'll still be doing a 20 by 20.
[1:44:05] Same.
[1:44:11] Question.
[1:44:12] Do you have any room to move it
further away
[1:44:15] from the lot line in any way?
[1:44:18] There's almost immediately
[1:44:21] to the right of it is the tank.
[1:44:25] Well, there's the tank just
[1:44:28] to the corner of it, but
the leach field is right next to it also.
[1:44:31] So I mean like within a couple of feet.
[1:44:36] It's possible it could go.
[1:44:39] Same foundation. Everything.
[1:44:41] Sit right on it.
[1:44:42] Down the woods we build on top.
[1:44:45] Correct.
[1:44:50] Same foundation.
[1:44:50] No no. No no. No no no.
[1:44:54] The foundation. Yeah.
[1:44:55] New foundation.
[1:44:56] Same same same.
[1:44:58] And everything is going to be okay.
[1:45:00] It's poured
and then it's going to be poured.
[1:45:03] Or is it like the original is
what might have been a block or the old.
[1:45:07] It's it's it's concrete, but I'm gone.
[1:45:11] It's just sinking.
[1:45:13] Thinking, cracking jokes.
[1:45:15] Yeah.
[1:45:17] Replacing what's there.
[1:45:19] Correct.
[1:45:21] As I'm looking at the picture
[1:45:24] of the house
from the front on the property.
[1:45:27] This is located at about two
the rear of the house
[1:45:30] at roughly 10:00 or thereabouts.
[1:45:34] 10 to 11:00.
[1:45:35] Yeah. So.
[1:45:38] Just back left.
[1:45:49] I just wanted to mention that
[1:45:51] it may not be
[1:45:52] officially condemned,
but we do have a statute that in
[1:45:56] an ordinance that allows someone
for a condemned building to rebuild it
[1:46:02] in the same footprint
if it was a non-conforming structure.
[1:46:07] It's not condemned,
but there's just support in our ordinances
[1:46:10] for taking non-conforming structures
that are dilapidated
[1:46:14] and rebuilding it in the same location.
[1:46:18] And I think we're treating it
as a replacement
[1:46:21] in kind, essentially.
[1:46:26] Anyone else?
[1:46:28] Do we need him?
[1:46:30] We have to grant him a variance of this.
[1:46:32] I don't understand.
[1:46:34] If he's replacing like.
[1:46:35] A yeah.
[1:46:38] I was out.
[1:46:42] You excuse excused.
[1:46:44] Well,
I think we had another garage situation.
[1:46:47] I don't remember the.
[1:46:49] Within three feet of the string.
[1:46:51] Yeah.
[1:46:51] And I and that one,
I think with the same situation.
[1:46:54] It was a complete tear down
and rebuild on the same footprint.
[1:46:57] I don't think there was any changes in.
[1:46:59] 45 grown.
[1:47:00] And and
[1:47:02] and we were saying that because they're,
they're tearing it down to the level
[1:47:06] and then rebuilding it is a new structure,
even if it is on the same footprint.
[1:47:10] Because the foundation is being removed
to be certified.
[1:47:13] Yeah. Okay. Right, right.
[1:47:16] All right.
[1:47:17] So you can sit there.
[1:47:20] Is there anybody who wants to speak
on this in the public
[1:47:24] seeing no hands, I will.
[1:47:26] Do you have anything else you want to add?
[1:47:28] I don't. Think so.
[1:47:29] All right, then,
I shall close the public hearing.
[1:47:32] Board motion or discussion?
[1:47:34] I think it comes down to replacing.
[1:47:38] I won't say the structure,
but one in poor condition
[1:47:41] with a new structure in the same location
which is not conforming.
[1:47:47] And it's if there was to make it
[1:47:51] more conforming, it runs into a septic.
[1:47:54] And is that is it a tank?
[1:47:57] It's a small field.
[1:47:59] Yeah, right.
[1:48:00] It's a field.
[1:48:01] So he doesn't have the option
[1:48:04] of rebuilding in a conforming space.
[1:48:08] It'd be no different than just.
[1:48:12] Siding on the existing building
and whatever.
[1:48:14] So we're not the broken foundation.
[1:48:16] Right? Right, right.
[1:48:17] So I don't see any.
[1:48:21] Whatever it's
[1:48:23] going through the criteria, but
[1:48:26] I would make a motion to campus variance
[1:48:31] again, going through the conditions
that typically would by
[1:48:35] the granting would not be contrary
to public interest, because he's replacing
[1:48:40] an existing structure,
[1:48:43] basically like the light,
[1:48:46] the spirit of the ordinance
[1:48:48] wouldn't be observed again,
because he's replacing an existing
[1:48:53] non-conforming,
but he's replacing it like polite.
[1:48:57] He's not encroaching anymore.
[1:49:00] Granting of the variance,
[1:49:03] but do substantial justice.
[1:49:06] For that reason, the ability
to make a repair and still maintain
[1:49:10] that nonconformity,
but with a new building
[1:49:14] for the following reasons.
[1:49:17] The value of the surrounding properties
would not be diminished,
[1:49:21] probably because a new structure
is a much better value
[1:49:24] than an existing dilapidated
or poor condition structure.
[1:49:31] The hardships
I think the hardships are again
[1:49:34] within our zoning ordinance
to require the rebuilding
[1:49:40] to to make it less
[1:49:44] nonconforming.
[1:49:46] He can't because of the layout
of the land.
[1:49:49] He runs into a septic.
[1:49:50] It's a small lot that large.
[1:49:52] I would say the hardship is the lot size.
[1:49:54] It's a very, very small
lot in the agricultural zone. Yes.
[1:49:58] Nowhere below.
[1:49:59] So again, it runs with the property.
[1:50:02] It's not by his choice.
[1:50:04] He's limited in what choices
he has to make it conforming or complying.
[1:50:07] But therefore I think we should.
[1:50:12] Second.
[1:50:14] Second from Charlie.
[1:50:16] Any discussion?
[1:50:17] All in favor?
[1:50:19] Opposed?
[1:50:20] Motion carries.
[1:50:23] You have your variance, sir.
[1:50:25] Can I.
[1:50:25] Can I ask a question?
[1:50:28] 30 days, subject to an appeal.
[1:50:32] Is there a. Way for me to go?
[1:50:34] Like if I find. As.
[1:50:37] I excavate that. I have, like, two.
[1:50:39] Feet of play
to work with towards that leach field?
[1:50:43] Can I go
[1:50:46] like 2 to 3ft?
[1:50:49] I, I would, I would.
[1:50:51] Miss variance
or is there a would there be more that.
[1:50:54] The variance was like for like
so I would I,
[1:50:59] I can't answer that because I'm
not the zoning enforcement officer.
[1:51:04] But given the fact that in the past
we've always said
[1:51:07] like if if that's what the discussion is,
that's what it's supposed to be.
[1:51:11] So I would.
[1:51:14] Even though the
the variation that you might present
[1:51:18] is a betterment less nonconforming,
you probably should come back
[1:51:22] just for the record of new planets
in the discussion.
[1:51:26] But again, really
it's a it's only administrators
[1:51:30] officers decisions.
[1:51:38] All right.
[1:51:40] That one is all set.
[1:51:44] I don't know if Jack will be available
[1:51:46] after the meeting, but.
[1:51:49] Yeah.
[1:51:50] All right.
[1:51:52] For this next
[1:51:55] next hearing we
[1:51:57] Kristen, you will be the voting alternate.
[1:52:01] Jeffrey Ellen, applicant owner
[1:52:03] is seeking variances
to allow for the replacement of stairs
[1:52:06] on a single family home
with two decks and stairs on the front
[1:52:09] and front side of the home, as well
as on the front slash middle of the home.
[1:52:14] The proposed deck and stairs
on the front side of the home.
[1:52:18] It's a lot of slashes here.
[1:52:20] We'll we'll be approximately 21ft
from the property line,
[1:52:24] and the proposed deck stairs on the front
middle of the home will be approximately
[1:52:28] 18ft from the property
from the front property line.
[1:52:32] Both structures are required to have a
25ft front setback from the property line.
[1:52:37] As perception.
[1:52:38] 4.3 the table of Dimensional Regulations
of the Goff Sound Zoning Ordinance.
[1:52:43] The property is located at 48
Laurel Street, map 14, lot 49, Zoned
[1:52:49] Residential two.
[1:52:50] And I will entertain a motion
for reasonable impact.
[1:52:54] Or no motion. There's no regional impact.
[1:52:58] Second
[1:53:00] then got beat out.
[1:53:00] So motion by second from all in favor
I opposed.
[1:53:06] Motion carries.
[1:53:08] Hi, I'm Jeff Allen, the owner
of the property at 48 Laurel Street.
[1:53:13] And we would like to replace our stone
[1:53:17] steps with Trex decking.
[1:53:21] And the footprint
is going to be a little bit larger
[1:53:24] than they are now.
[1:53:31] I've got pictures.
[1:53:32] This is our current steps and cracks.
[1:53:38] Damage.
[1:53:39] And then we want to replace them with
this is the front of the house.
[1:53:45] So if anybody on the he's
showing pictures on.
[1:53:47] We have it in a packet.
[1:53:48] I think these are some saying the one.
[1:53:50] Oh they're the same ones. Okay.
[1:53:52] More pictures. Okay. Yeah.
[1:53:54] Just a little bit larger.
[1:53:56] I'd like to expand the front.
[1:54:00] The current stone
steps wouldn't fit within
[1:54:04] the zoning regulations.
[1:54:06] They must have had a variance
to build those.
[1:54:10] Meaning that current
[1:54:11] front steps are not code
compliant right now.
[1:54:15] Compliant?
[1:54:16] The the house is 25ft from the line,
[1:54:20] and then the steps come out about five
feet in front of it.
[1:54:23] Okay.
[1:54:24] If the I'm just trying to say
if the steps were
[1:54:30] if the steps met the setback requirement,
[1:54:33] would they be compliant or are they
[1:54:36] too small or you can't be.
[1:54:39] There yet.
[1:54:41] You have to be.
[1:54:42] It has to be larger
if you're going to do it under.
[1:54:45] Current code. Okay.
[1:54:47] Okay.
[1:54:48] That answers my question.
[1:55:01] Got some damage
[1:55:02] and I current steps
we have to do something.
[1:55:07] Which of them do you use
as the primary entrance.
[1:55:11] The one in the middle
of the front of the front of the house or.
[1:55:15] The one side entrance?
[1:55:17] The side entrance
was still in the driveway.
[1:55:20] That's the one used for the main entrance.
[1:55:23] The majority of the time.
[1:55:26] Right.
[1:55:27] Is that poured in place
or is it a precast drop?
[1:55:30] The one on the right hand
side is a precast drop in.
[1:55:34] The one on the front of the house
is poured in place.
[1:55:38] Okay.
[1:55:39] Both of them will have to be demolished.
[1:55:41] That's gonna be fun.
[1:55:42] Yeah.
[1:55:53] We have spoken to our neighbors and.
[1:55:58] Yeah.
[1:55:58] Yes, there is an email.
[1:55:59] That came in. Well,
[1:56:02] it's part of the packet,
I think, but I'll read it just in case.
[1:56:07] I came in on August 31st at 10 p.m.
[1:56:12] from Michelle and Claire.
[1:56:16] And that would be
the person who lives at 50 Laurel Street.
[1:56:21] I am fine with the Allen
[1:56:22] putting decking against their house
and in their front yard.
[1:56:25] I am unable to attend September 1st.
[1:56:27] Please consider this email to be in favor
of the project proposed at use 46.
[1:56:32] But it's 48 Little Street.
[1:56:35] Thank you Michele.
[1:56:40] Okay.
[1:56:40] What is the hardship?
[1:56:44] What's the hardship part of this?
[1:56:46] That's always the tricky thing for us.
[1:56:48] If we can understand what is it
that's unique about the property that
[1:56:53] such. That.
[1:56:55] The ordinance should
is an undue hardship on you?
[1:57:00] Well, the house is 25ft.
[1:57:03] The front of the house is 25ft
from the property line.
[1:57:07] So anything that we build in front of
the house is going to be violating the
[1:57:12] the ordinance.
[1:57:15] Right.
[1:57:16] And you do need steps to get out.
[1:57:17] We need steps to get out.
[1:57:19] That sounds like a hardship to me.
[1:57:24] Did break it apart there.
[1:57:27] Yeah. So the there really shifted.
[1:57:29] We've lived there 13, 14 years before us.
[1:57:34] They looked like they've really settled.
[1:57:36] Somebody added another stair on top.
[1:57:39] It's kind of hacked.
[1:57:41] And now it's really getting kind of wonky.
[1:57:44] And then the side ones are just straight
up broken by the winter, last winter.
[1:57:49] There's a hardship right there.
[1:57:51] So the board in place, one is settling
into the ground and brought, in other.
[1:57:57] Words, quite a lot.
[1:57:59] Jack the so by code they had
[1:58:02] the steps have to be a specific size
for entry right? Yes.
[1:58:06] For entry for them to open.
[1:58:07] The door on both the, on
both the side and the front.
[1:58:10] Correct. Okay.
[1:58:11] So I mean the hardship is, is that
[1:58:14] if we say no,
he has no way to enter exit his home?
[1:58:17] That sounds like
a pretty big hardship to me.
[1:58:23] Okay.
[1:58:27] Just any further discussion.
[1:58:31] Okay.
[1:58:32] I will close the public hearing,
seeing that there's nobody
[1:58:35] left in the audience.
[1:58:38] Board discussion.
[1:58:39] Motion.
[1:58:48] Seems pretty straightforward to me.
[1:58:52] Needs to be safe.
[1:58:58] I don't have anybody jump in at one.
[1:59:00] I will.
[1:59:01] Make a motion to approve a variance for
[1:59:05] 48 Laurel Street map 14, lot 49,
[1:59:09] to allow for the proposed deck stairs
[1:59:14] in both the front and the side of the home
[1:59:16] to be
[1:59:19] to be repaired
[1:59:21] as written in the request.
[1:59:26] Going through the criterium,
[1:59:29] which is in a different part of.
[1:59:34] Granting
the variance would not be contrary
[1:59:36] to the public interest, because
I don't believe anybody in the public
[1:59:40] would really be upset about somebody
being able to enter or exit their home.
[1:59:44] The spirit of the ordinance
is observed because.
[1:59:50] I don't believe
that there is any spirit of the ordinance
[1:59:53] that would deny somebody to fix something
that would allow them
[1:59:56] entry into their home.
[1:59:57] That has to violate the code.
[2:00:00] Granted, the variance would do
substantial justice because.
[2:00:05] He can now have steps to enter
[2:00:08] and safe steps to enter
[2:00:11] and exit the home values of surrounding
properties will not be diminished.
[2:00:15] I think that's a given, I think,
[2:00:19] yeah, that's fine.
[2:00:21] And then in terms of the hardship,
owing to special conditions
[2:00:25] of the property that distinguish it
from other properties in the area,
[2:00:29] the Nile of the variance
would be an unnecessary hardship because
[2:00:34] there is no relationship
between the public
[2:00:37] that that would have any impact on this
at all,
[2:00:42] other than the fact
that the person cannot use their home
[2:00:46] and the proposed uses a reasonable one
because they're stairs to enter the home.
[2:00:52] Well.
[2:00:53] There's the motion on the table.
[2:00:56] Second from.
[2:00:58] All in favor.
[2:01:00] Opposed?
[2:01:01] Motion carries. Thank you.
[2:01:04] I should have gone first.
[2:01:09] I don't.
[2:01:09] Make draw.
[2:01:12] 30 days.
[2:01:14] Yes, there could be an appeal on that
within 30 days.
[2:01:17] Just be aware. Of that.
[2:01:20] A disgruntled neighbor.
[2:01:23] All right.
[2:01:24] Correspondence. Bruce.
[2:01:26] Go ahead. Yes.
[2:01:28] So again, I was tasked in the last meeting
[2:01:31] to come up with some of the requests
for topics,
[2:01:36] present topics from the zoning ordinance
that we feel
[2:01:39] that the planning Board
to address into the zoning ordinance,
[2:01:43] drafted up in the form of a memo
[2:01:46] to the Planning Board
from the Zoning Board of Adjustment,
[2:01:49] the subject is Items and topics
for zoning Ordinance amendments.
[2:01:53] Consideration from the Zeba
to present to the Planning Board
[2:01:57] one definition of multifamily.
[2:02:00] I think we've asked that around a lot.
[2:02:03] Two Adu requirements need to be the same
as the single family.
[2:02:08] For example, strike
the section referenced 5.2.7,
[2:02:14] which has a separate requirement
of satisfying requirements
[2:02:18] above what
the single family does as a requirement.
[2:02:22] And some of that might be.
[2:02:23] I looked back at what we voted with.
[2:02:26] Everything was happening last time.
[2:02:28] We look back at what we voted in
in the spring for the elections,
[2:02:32] and there was an update
to the definition of the Adu,
[2:02:36] but it was voted no by the public.
[2:02:39] So that might be why we're seeing so many,
[2:02:42] is that there was please vote for this.
[2:02:45] In order for this to be updated
in accordance with the state laws
[2:02:49] and the public vote, to. Know.
[2:02:51] Whether we still have.
[2:02:52] But we still have to uphold
the state laws.
[2:02:54] I know.
[2:02:54] So that might be why the definition
of ADUs not including detached,
[2:03:00] for instance, it's still doesn't
quite add up and I think that is why.
[2:03:04] Okay.
[2:03:05] So again,
we'll probably try it again this year.
[2:03:09] I would.
[2:03:09] Say yeah. Thank you for that.
[2:03:11] So they might even have red lines
saved from last year that apply right.
[2:03:18] Third topic was detached home occupations.
[2:03:21] Again I throw this out.
[2:03:22] Really the planning board
[2:03:23] is the one that supposed
to craft the ordinance and the details.
[2:03:27] Sometimes we can suggest some of that
to help make it easy for them.
[2:03:31] But so for that instance,
and we've had a couple
[2:03:34] that have detached home occupations in
the past, we've had to deal with that more
[2:03:38] so as a variance because it's
not addressed in that loading ordinance.
[2:03:41] So do we want to do different criteria
new classification,
[2:03:46] cottage industries, another name for those
when they're outside of the home self.
[2:03:50] Just food for the planning board
to run forward with.
[2:03:53] But we don't have
[2:03:54] something in the zoning ordinance,
so now they have to come in for a variance
[2:03:58] if it's a detached home occupation,
multiple principal uses on one lot.
[2:04:04] That's the new law
that says we can have mixed residential
[2:04:07] in with a commercial development
going forward.
[2:04:10] And that's still being cranked out
to sausage in the state level as well.
[2:04:14] But we need to update
as to allow that kind of mixed use
[2:04:20] construction business or use.
[2:04:22] That's not a defined use,
[2:04:27] but we need the definition details
in table of uses and or supplemental.
[2:04:31] Otherwise they come in for a variance.
[2:04:33] They want to do a construction business
because it's not defined.
[2:04:37] Lastly rename the a the agricultural zone
[2:04:41] to rural the roof zone
keeping all the uses dimensions.
[2:04:45] As before, it's just a name change
to reflect the current actual use graph.
[2:04:50] Sounds no longer an agricultural zoning
ordinance came in 63.
[2:04:54] It was pretty much agricultural.
[2:04:56] Was all the outlying.
[2:04:58] Now it's pretty much rural,
but agriculture is still used.
[2:05:02] That's permitted.
[2:05:03] I think that would just clarify it
because it's always weird
[2:05:06] when do an application.
[2:05:08] It's in the agricultural zone.
[2:05:09] It's not agricultural use.
[2:05:11] It's it's a real use
[2:05:14] district.
[2:05:14] So with that, if there's any other topics
that the board
[2:05:18] wants to bring to the planning board,
we can do that.
[2:05:22] We should vote on this present
[2:05:24] to the planning board
so they can get into their schedule
[2:05:27] for getting amendments
to the zoning ordinance. So,
[2:05:32] when does that have to get in by?
[2:05:36] Is it before our next zoning
board meeting?
[2:05:41] Just right after.
[2:05:44] Okay.
[2:05:48] I might suggest that we discuss this,
[2:05:52] but hold off until next month
when things comes back.
[2:05:55] And if she doesn't come back,
then we vote.
[2:05:57] Then.
[2:05:58] Because there would be a sitting, sitting.
[2:06:00] Member of the board voting for that.
[2:06:03] That's one of the things.
[2:06:04] The other thing
was, given tonight's discussion,
[2:06:08] we noticed that there's a absence
in definitions for school.
[2:06:13] The school. School, kids.
[2:06:15] Dinner. Garden.
[2:06:17] I suggest that we add that to this list
so that they can define it based on state
[2:06:22] definitions of those industries,
those pieces of the industry.
[2:06:26] Especially because after school care
and summer
[2:06:30] camps
and things like that are a growing need.
[2:06:33] I think that there's
[2:06:34] going to be more business owners
looking to open up businesses, and it's
[2:06:38] kind of a black hole there for them,
and maybe we can make some ordinances,
[2:06:42] just make it a. Little more clear.
[2:06:44] Education definitions in our zoning
ordinance should mirror match.
[2:06:49] They can kind of the same language.
[2:06:54] Okay,
[2:06:55] I'll craft another at that is another item
for the next meeting.
[2:06:59] Yeah, there's infant toddler care.
[2:07:02] School age.
[2:07:03] Goes all the way up to G something that h.
[2:07:06] And it's it's an adventure,
I'll tell you that.
[2:07:11] It's sort of interesting is the state
has that form.
[2:07:13] It's a zoning verification form.
[2:07:16] But there's only three.
[2:07:18] Right.
[2:07:19] So but a through something
[2:07:23] look at the group care.
[2:07:24] Right
[2:07:26] c c g.
[2:07:27] At the very end.
[2:07:29] Yeah.
[2:07:29] So that's goes from infant care
all the way up to school
[2:07:35] elementary
or whatever kindergarten and beyond.
[2:07:39] That's why it's nice.
[2:07:39] That's why it's hard for local definitions
to say yes, we comply with the state
[2:07:44] if like ours only has up to five,
we don't have all the aces.
[2:07:48] I mean, we go a through,
I mean, see through, whatever it is.
[2:07:52] Three of them. Well,
[2:07:55] we can group with this in some way.
[2:07:57] Like it should speak the same language.
[2:08:00] Yeah.
[2:08:00] That that was what the point
that I was trying to make is that
[2:08:04] because they there can be a lot of weeds
that grow very fast
[2:08:07] because of those types of definitions.
[2:08:11] And I think from the zoning ordinance,
[2:08:14] an after school program might be different
than a full day program.
[2:08:18] And I'm just thinking
[2:08:19] planning board for traffic, whatever,
just other things of planning board stuff
[2:08:23] that they need to deal with that differs
[2:08:25] with each of those different
classifications, I would imagine somewhat,
[2:08:30] but. Okay,
[2:08:33] at least the topic is going to get
so we can get
[2:08:36] marriage to that.
[2:08:39] Educational institution.
[2:08:41] Yeah. Preschool educational.
[2:08:44] I think it's an Irish 170 that had it.
[2:08:50] Was on.
[2:08:50] That form.
[2:08:51] Sorry sugar from that one. So yes.
[2:08:54] Just somewhat related to
what Bruce is saying.
[2:08:57] I suspect you all got that slide deck
[2:09:01] that I had Patty send out to everybody
on the
[2:09:05] that wonderful hour of the state
planning office similar tonight.
[2:09:09] And the one thing that made me think,
and I think it's a long term development
[2:09:15] thing, but the way that new law is crafted
[2:09:18] as far as multifamily
[2:09:22] in commercial zones,
[2:09:26] what it's going to do,
I see the ghost town in the long run.
[2:09:29] It's going to force
all multifamily development
[2:09:34] basically into the 114 corridor,
[2:09:38] because the requirements of the law
and there are two
[2:09:42] that are in you've got to have
all the infrastructure pieces.
[2:09:46] You've got to have the road, the water
and the sewer.
[2:09:51] And in particular, because the question is
raised by when it was answered
[2:09:57] by, I think there's no a Hodge
that I believe was the chief planner,
[2:10:02] private sewer
[2:10:04] built by a developer will not make it
[2:10:08] doesn't fulfill the law.
[2:10:12] You've got to have some sort
of a public sewer system,
[2:10:16] whether it's tax supported
or whether it's like gloves,
[2:10:20] town sewer districts where it is
supported by user fees.
[2:10:24] It cannot be a private sewer system.
[2:10:27] So what do we got here?
[2:10:30] We got one. We got 114. Yeah.
[2:10:33] It did have a provision for the developers
to pay for upgrades
[2:10:37] to the public sewer system
and somehow give money towards that.
[2:10:42] It also took away any rights for us
to mandate a conditional use permit.
[2:10:47] Mixed use
first floor use is allowed by right
[2:10:50] to have multifamily
in the commercial district.
[2:10:54] But I.
[2:10:55] I just. Have. The district.
[2:10:58] Unfortunately,
I'm looking at the apartment
[2:11:01] road that you have for
and seven think River road, River
[2:11:05] road in Hooksett
heading up toward the Walmart or
[2:11:10] I can't
remember the name of the street in bed,
[2:11:13] but there's another line of apartment
buildings there.
[2:11:17] And problem with Goffstown.
[2:11:18] And this is the discussion that Denise
and I have had on a number of occasions.
[2:11:23] The Goffstown has got very limited
commercial space.
[2:11:28] We try like hell to preserve it,
and every time we do,
[2:11:32] the state says story.
[2:11:35] Oh, maybe that's something that
that should be brought up to the
[2:11:39] to the planning boards as well.
[2:11:41] Because if it needs to be rezoned
[2:11:44] to protect that space,
that might be an option for the town.
[2:11:47] If it really feels like that.
[2:11:49] I mean, this is not anything
[2:11:51] that's going to be tomorrow
or even next month or next year.
[2:11:55] But, you know, if you look 5
or 10 years out, we've already seen it.
[2:12:00] I think of the development that's going in
just to the east of the shell there,
[2:12:05] that's been sitting there now
for 2 or 3 years or.
[2:12:10] They're.
[2:12:11] Out, you know, which is a commercial,
a commercial property.
[2:12:16] You know, we're looking we're looking at
that kind of development up and down.
[2:12:20] One or as far as the sewer line runs. So
[2:12:26] yeah.
[2:12:27] Okay.
[2:12:27] That said, my piece
that I'm just thinking of what
[2:12:31] the future of the town can look like.
[2:12:35] Yeah.
[2:12:35] The only buts are, is it has to have
the sewer and the water and the roads.
[2:12:41] But that's the only thing
that can hold it up
[2:12:44] because it's permitted by right now.
[2:12:45] So it has to be public sewer.
[2:12:48] Yeah. But that that was the caveat.
[2:12:50] It has to. Be and it's immediately
effective.
[2:12:53] It's not next year.
[2:12:54] It's immediately
as of last this past July.
[2:12:59] Yeah they've made it retroactive.
[2:13:02] But yeah, developers in this town
have been trying for years along 114
[2:13:09] only because that's where all
the infrastructure is already in place.
[2:13:14] And if they're wrongfully denied,
they're allowed to seek
[2:13:17] reasonable compensation
for their attorney's fees from the town's.
[2:13:22] Hall, as before, the housing
[2:13:23] Appeals Board again. So.
[2:13:33] So because the gender says
[2:13:37] that there should be a vote
to submit to the planning board.
[2:13:41] I wouldn't say either we do that
or somebody make a motion. To.
[2:13:46] Move that.
[2:13:47] We table any vote on this
[2:13:52] of topics for the planning board.
[2:13:55] The next regular meeting.
[2:13:58] For this vote, Davis,
you'll be the voting alternate.
[2:14:02] I will second that.
[2:14:04] So we have a motion on the table
[2:14:05] to push this table,
this until the next meeting a second.
[2:14:09] So all in favor I opposed.
[2:14:12] Motion carries.
[2:14:16] Okay.
[2:14:16] So the next thing on the agenda
is the email from Joanne
[2:14:20] regarding density calculations
in the zoning
[2:14:23] ordinance.
[2:14:32] Updating some of these.
[2:14:37] Town okay.
[2:14:37] That's right.
[2:14:39] That's great.
[2:14:44] For round down right up
[2:14:47] for the area.
[2:15:21] Comments or otherwise.
[2:15:25] Then we shall just note that
[2:15:27] those received from the board.
[2:15:30] And then the last one was the one
I just found,
[2:15:33] which is the update to the application
fees.
[2:15:39] I think it's it's a vote to.
[2:15:43] Agree with the staff recommendations
[2:15:45] and on voting on the fees.
[2:15:49] Yeah. I was going to ask if.
[2:15:50] We can.
[2:15:51] If we can do that.
[2:15:58] Point of adjustment
[2:15:59] has the authority to make the necessary
change to the application fees.
[2:16:03] So I guess I guess we do have
[2:16:06] to make changes to the fees.
[2:16:17] The last sentence says please vote.
[2:16:18] The staff's recommended.
[2:16:22] Application fees.
[2:16:25] I, I guess my only question of this was
[2:16:28] it would have been nice
to see what the current costs are.
[2:16:33] Not second page.
[2:16:37] No, those are the fees.
[2:16:39] That's not the case.
[2:16:40] Oh, I see, just like it.
[2:16:41] It's stating here
[2:16:42] that to cover the cost of the union either
classified ads and postage.
[2:16:47] I would like to see the costs.
[2:16:49] So we know that okay.
[2:16:51] This is a reasonable adjustment.
[2:16:53] I mean not not that I doubt
[2:16:57] not that I doubt them, but I think
[2:16:59] it would make good fiduciary sense
to know the cost.
[2:17:03] Patti.
[2:17:04] Monday, next. Monday.
[2:17:06] You'll be back on Monday. Yes.
[2:17:07] So we want to know,
like what the union leader charges, right.
[2:17:13] Because that goes into the fees. Right.
[2:17:15] So if if we're saying that the we're going
to increase the fees
[2:17:19] for a residential house by $75,
[2:17:23] I would like to be able to justify why.
[2:17:26] So if.
[2:17:28] We're going up the dollar,
the notice on the butter fees $12.
[2:17:32] Now a butter notification fee is $13.
[2:17:37] I think that's what she's mentioning on
that line item is the union leader.
[2:17:42] You know, notice
[2:17:45] whatever that.
[2:17:46] No. The notice in. The paper.
[2:17:47] No. The other notification fee is.
[2:17:49] Oh, maybe that's.
[2:17:50] The sort of the post sending it out.
[2:17:53] The I would imagine that the fees
for the union leader ad
[2:17:57] and whatnot are part of the fee itself,
[2:18:01] not the butter notification fees, I think.
[2:18:04] I think I'd like to just see a little bit
more clarification on
[2:18:08] on where the costs are coming from
to be able to justify to the public.
[2:18:13] Hey, this is why
we're increasing the peace by this much.
[2:18:17] I. I trust.
[2:18:18] Staff like this is this is the minutia.
[2:18:22] That.
[2:18:23] You know, they figure this stuff out
and they do the math
[2:18:26] and they take the time to prepare
and give it to us.
[2:18:29] It's like, well, all.
[2:18:31] All the way you have to look at
[2:18:34] if it
were minor increases, but you've got.
[2:18:38] These are significant. Doubling.
[2:18:41] But you've got a doubling and residential
a you've got a doubling.
[2:18:45] You have more than a doubling
in residential application
[2:18:49] and a doubling and residential be.
[2:19:02] Yeah.
[2:19:03] So I mean, it's up to the board as to
how we, how we want to push this forward.
[2:19:08] If we're going to vote to do that,
then that's fine.
[2:19:12] So Charlie,
you'll be devoted in alternate.
[2:19:15] I guess the other option
is to request that
[2:19:19] there be a little bit more information.
[2:19:21] If we wanted to vote on the next time.
[2:19:22] I don't know if there's a deadline
that they have to be getting this
[2:19:26] in, like by next month
or I think I'm sure it's, it's,
[2:19:31] Well, I would imagine if anything
it would have.
[2:19:34] Well, no, because we get to set them.
[2:19:37] On the budget. It's part of the budget.
[2:19:39] So when does that need to be
in that information?
[2:19:43] Probably by October 1st.
[2:19:47] First, second weekend. Okay.
[2:19:49] Well if it I mean,
if it's the second week of October, then
[2:19:52] we have a meeting in there,
be able to have the information
[2:19:56] that that's just that's my my opinion.
[2:19:59] And mine's more procedural.
[2:20:02] I didn't think that had the authority
to set fees.
[2:20:08] I had to have a public hearing.
[2:20:12] Just like this.
[2:20:13] Like we can just like
we can justify raising fees also.
[2:20:18] To hold a public hearing.
[2:20:20] Oh, they. Don't really know. They do not.
[2:20:23] But I think I know
[2:20:25] I, I always like to on the side
of letting people know things.
[2:20:29] So you know, we I, I'm not sure I know
what the actual cost of these things are.
[2:20:34] They just get pulled into a budget,
but they never really separate it out. So
[2:20:40] I agree with you, Jason.
[2:20:41] I'm you know, I. Trust.
[2:20:43] That the staff. Has. Done the hard work.
[2:20:45] I just want to see the math
that they put into it as well,
[2:20:49] just so that we can feel assured
that when we make this decision,
[2:20:53] if we do accept their proposed fees,
that we feel confident
[2:20:58] that we've made the right decision
based on the work that they have for them.
[2:21:03] Yeah. Definitely do the homework.
[2:21:05] It's nothing. Against the tenant.
[2:21:07] I just want to be able to have it in
the record that that we make it available.
[2:21:11] So I think David instead. It.
[2:21:13] Will have it for the minutes and. And.
[2:21:18] I would say the
[2:21:21] to see the cost of the things
that are specified here.
[2:21:24] The union leader cost,
[2:21:28] the postage.
[2:21:29] To certify. The certification costs.
[2:21:32] I mean, I, I know that the post office
has up their fees,
[2:21:35] but I don't know to what extent.
[2:21:37] I know there's something significant here.
[2:21:40] Be a question to explore
how many people really like
[2:21:45] getting a envelope
[2:21:49] going on.
[2:21:50] Is it is it possible that we could do,
like many organizations have done
[2:21:56] and just go to electronic notification?
[2:22:00] Or is it some,
or is it a legal requirement
[2:22:03] that the board get it in hard copy?
[2:22:06] I don't know the answer to that.
[2:22:08] I mean, I get all of the PDF
electronically.
[2:22:11] I mailed copy.
[2:22:12] Because as I think all of us do, but
I mean, do we really need the hard copy?
[2:22:17] Besides.
[2:22:20] I mean, I look at this table, it's
almost like a building permit thing.
[2:22:23] It's got residential, a one house
unit of duplex
[2:22:27] residential,
be 2 or 3 houses, units or duplexes.
[2:22:30] We don't have applications
like that, do we?
[2:22:34] Well.
[2:22:34] When the commercial industrial three
or residential, other.
[2:22:39] Than they put in their applications,
they have to check off
[2:22:43] what what it falls under.
[2:22:45] To send the notifications.
[2:22:46] They would have to send it
to each family in the multifamily.
[2:22:49] So then everybody gets notified
and that I'm guessing.
[2:22:53] But it would be nice to see.
[2:22:54] But I'm guessing that that's
why it's more for each one
[2:22:57] as well as if you need to notify
[2:23:01] in a condo complex everyone in the condo
for something I don't know, even work.
[2:23:06] That way.
[2:23:07] Do you want to send it
to the manager of the.
[2:23:09] Condo complex?
[2:23:12] It's up to them to give it to the 13
or 18, 20, whatever hundred.
[2:23:17] I would assume part. Of.
[2:23:18] These fees is not only, but specifically
when we're looking at the residential
[2:23:23] A, residential B commercial C categories,
I would assume part of
[2:23:26] it is also factoring in the cost of staff
time with these applications.
[2:23:30] A residential a one house
[2:23:32] unit or duplex is going to be
a lot simpler than looking at if,
[2:23:37] you know, since they've been so much
in the news around the country,
[2:23:40] a data center is trying to come in
[2:23:41] and has this huge thing
that they're trying to take away.
[2:23:45] Some part of the agricultural district
that's going to take a lot more staff
[2:23:50] time to review
a much more extensive application
[2:23:55] that's going to fall under that,
that third category
[2:23:59] that's going to have a higher cost
because it's going to require more time.
[2:24:04] I can think of things if you've got
[2:24:06] 30 or 40 of butters versus a handful
[2:24:10] for a residential project,
just the amount of time to develop,
[2:24:15] develop
a mailing list of a Butters certification.
[2:24:19] My guess would be
that that average is out.
[2:24:21] You know, for the ones that have won
a butter versus those that have 300. But
[2:24:27] I don't know
[2:24:29] that that
[2:24:31] I don't think
we need to have documentation
[2:24:34] to like the minute of staff time.
[2:24:37] Like I said, I'd just like to know
what the union leader classified
[2:24:40] ad costs like, how did they go up
so that we can turn around and say, well,
[2:24:44] somebody says, did the board
do a good job of allowing these fees?
[2:24:48] We can say yes to.
[2:24:50] All right.
[2:24:50] Can I make can I make a motion on
[2:24:54] I move that we table action
[2:24:57] on these fees to the next regular meeting,
[2:25:01] and that we request staff to provide
[2:25:05] justification for the numbers, back up
[2:25:09] materials for this for the next meeting.
[2:25:13] I would. Say that.
[2:25:14] You're about an alternate
[2:25:17] I think I said. You yeah.
[2:25:19] So, all right, so we have a motion
from Len, second from me.
[2:25:24] All in favor? Aye.
[2:25:26] Opposed? Motion carries. So.
[2:25:32] So that is
[2:25:35] agenda.
[2:25:36] So do we have a motion to adjourn?
[2:25:39] So move.
[2:25:40] Move from Bruce.
[2:25:41] Second from John.
[2:25:44] Charlie,
you're the voting alternate. All in favor?
[2:25:47] All right.
[2:25:48] Closed. Motion carries.
[2:25:50] Have a good evening, everyone.