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- The Centre Region Active Adult Center is a vibrant,

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inclusive, and happening location designed

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for active adults 55 years and over to be social

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and participate in new experiences while

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also staying close to home.

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We promote healthy aging through our many activities

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and health forums, as well as lifelong learning

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through classes and social interaction

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that suit almost any lifestyle.

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Whether you prefer line dancing followed by a walk

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or a game of bridge and a meal,

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the center is sure to have something for you.

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Visit crpr.org for more info.

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- You are watching CNET Center County's Government

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and Educational Access Network.

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- Sponsorship for this program is brought to you in part

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by Town and Gown Magazine.

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If it's happening in Happy Valley,

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it's in Town and Gown Magazine.

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- Hello, we are calling to order the meeting

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of the State College Borough Planning Commission

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for August 6th, 2025 at noon.

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Roll Call. I am Zoe Boniface, vice chair acting as chair

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because Ron Madrid is not present in the room.

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Ron Madrid

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- Here - Is present long over the internet.

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Anita here. Dan man

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- Here.

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- Okay. He is also online. Tony Sapia Here.

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Curtis Schulman.

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Great approval of minutes from July 17th.

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Any comments or corrections?

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Hearing none. May I have a motion to approve?

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Motion approve. A second. Second. All in favor say aye.

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A Aye. Aye. Opposed? Okay.

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Sorry about that. We're not, we're still in session,

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but the meeting, but the minutes are approved.

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- Question on Zoom. - Did you have a question, Ron?

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Or were you just approved? Yes,

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- I had a, no, I had a, I had a change on the minutes.

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- Oh, - But I'll,

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- Oh, I'm sorry.

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I missed that.

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- You can go ahead and reopen. - Go ahead.

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Yeah, we can reopen this. What, what is your concern?

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- Page seven under PC comments. The fourth bullet.

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My comment said increase building in regards

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to building heights from two to five stories.

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It should be nine to 11 versus two to five.

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- Thank you. So

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- Motion to, just a motion to approve.

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- Can we make Yeah. Mo a motion

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to approve the minutes with this correction.

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So moved. So moved. Okay.

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And we've got a second from Tony

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and then we will go on.

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Sorry about that Ron. I did not see your hand. Okay.

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Chair report. I will only mention

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that we have two more planning commission meetings

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and two more meetings that are devoted to review

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of these new

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proposed Zoning matters.

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And if you really care about this stuff,

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this is the time to come talk

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or to put comments

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online, public hour.

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If there is anyone here

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or online who would like to speak

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to the planning commission on a matter that is not

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of today's agenda, this is your opportunity.

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Come up and say who you are, where you live.

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- And I would say pretty much all the

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Zoning ordinances on the agenda.

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So if it's about Zoning, save it for the presentation.

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- I do have a few things which I do not think are covered in

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the agenda minutes, but feel free

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to stop me if that's not the case.

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My name is John Gardner homeowner in West College Heights,

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Hillcrest Avenue, Dr. John Gardner, excuse me.

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And I'm also a member of the Transportation Commission

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with Susan Vango back there.

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So the thing that I specifically wanted to address is just

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how boring, unpleasant,

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and unattractive West College Heights is.

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It has only ugly single family homes.

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It doesn't have any shops, it doesn't have any restaurants,

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it doesn't have any attractive apartment buildings.

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And I think the thing that really should be looked at is the

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buy right legalization of owner o operator corner stores.

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This is something that is sweeping,

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especially the West coast as they attempt

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to re legalize stores that were already in operation.

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I think the, the biggest places are Spokane and Seattle.

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And what they did was way back in the day, historically,

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there were always corner stores so the people didn't have

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to hop in a car and drive all the way through town to get

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to a mega box grocery store.

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If they needed a, a quick cup of coffee

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or, or, or some groceries.

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They could pop down to the corner store

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and make a, a walking trip instead of a, a driving trip.

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But that's specifically my point about West College Heights.

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There's nothing there. It's an absolute cultural desert.

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The only good part of the neighborhood is the bicycle trail

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to get out of the neighborhood,

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to go to other places to do things.

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It is exclusively an institutionalized bedroom.

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And so I think that a really important thing, especially

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for addressing climate change and a change

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and improving the feel of the communities is

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that you should really seriously address buy right corner

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store legalization such that any corner lot would be allowed

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to do, to have a corner store.

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Not necessarily something that big developers have

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to come into, but if somebody wants to convert a house and,

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and make their downstairs into a coffee shop,

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I see no reason why that shouldn't be something

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of extreme importance.

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And then also just in general, I think that R one

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and R two should be completely abolished.

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There's no reason for having ranch style homes in the middle

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of a, a dense urban core.

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And then the last thing I wanted to address,

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which I don't think is on the agenda today, is students,

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I know that a student occupation is extremely limited to,

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to a very small area of downtown.

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I personally found that very difficult and annoying

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because when I moved here, excuse me, for graduate school,

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I was under the age of 25.

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And that extremely

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and artificially shrank the number of places

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that I was legally allowed, allowed to live

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really only being penned into a a, a student, a stockyard,

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or going obscenely far outta the Borough.

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And that's ultimately why we ended up having

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to choose the place where we did.

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So I think that that is unnecessarily restrictive.

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It is in the name State College.

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The community thrives off of the university.

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So we should therefore be welcome to the students

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that allow us to exist.

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So thank you very much. Those are my comments.

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- Okay, - Zoe,

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we do have someone online who'd like to speak.

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- Okay, let's go ahead.

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I don't see, I'll,

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- I'll allow them to talk in a second.

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- Okay. Alright. Okay.

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- John Chu, you can go ahead and speak now.

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- Yes. Hi, can you hear me okay?

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- Yes. And I'm, I'm, I've been instructed

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to put people on the four minute timer.

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This is no comment on our first comment of the day.

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Go ahead.

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- All right. Well I've,

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if you haven't been reading your emails,

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I've been the reporter from the Daily Collegiate

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that's been trying to reach out to a Mr.

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Sapia for comment about the future land use map

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from the CRPA.

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I haven't gotten any responses back, so I just wanted

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to remind you guys about it

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and if you, any, if he's willing to speak about it

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and if,

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and if any of you guys are willing to speak about it

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as well, you can just contact me at

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JWC 64 ninety6@psu.edu.

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That's all. I just wanted to say, this

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probably doesn't have anything to do

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with the agenda right now.

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It's just wanted to put that out there.

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So thank you for giving me the time to speak.

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- Okay. Anyone else?

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Hearing none, we will go on.

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Okay. So we are now going on

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to review our new Zoning Ordinance.

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Today we are looking to re review the,

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summarize the residential districts sections

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that were introduced last month and,

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and then we'll have some recommendation,

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discussion and refinement.

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Okay. The Ordinance is available online

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and instructions

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for submitting public comments are available on the webpage.

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You can submit comments digitally at any kind

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to zone State College at State College pa

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us. Go ahead.

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- Okay. Thank you Zoe. Good afternoon everyone.

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So for today we're,

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we'll do our normal introduction again just

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to make sure everybody has the same information, both about

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how to provide comments

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and also to review the material that's online.

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The, the page that we have

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where we're putting everybody's

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online comments is getting lengthy.

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So if you have not had a chance to read any

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of that, please take a look.

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There's a lot of material in there.

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We're also, as Zoe said, we're gonna focus today on

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summarizing the comments that we've received related

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to the residential districts.

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We're gonna talk specifically about accessory dwelling units

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'cause we just got that text right before the last meeting.

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And then also just kind of preview

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what we think will be happening for the eight 14

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and 8 21 meetings.

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And talk a little bit about transitional zones as well.

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We had an opportunity to sit down with Susan Vanoni on some,

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some of her map changes and comments.

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We wanna run a few things by you as well.

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So again, why are we doing this as far

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as the major objectives for the rezoning revision?

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And that is to increase housing opportunities period, both

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for market rate and affordable housing

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and tenants, both for home ownership and rental tenants,

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and also for long-term residents and students.

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I wanna just take a moment.

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There's been a lot of comments about affordable housing and,

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and I just think it's important and,

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and Ron mentioned this at the last meeting

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to recognize we're talking about increasing housing

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opportunities, more units.

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That doesn't mean that they will be necessarily affordable.

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In fact, unless you're using something like the mandatory

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inclusionary housing Ordinance, probably not going

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to make them affordable.

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So I just wanna be clear that this is

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about creating more opportunities.

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Those communities that have done significant increases in,

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in, you know, significant changes in Zoning

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to allow increases for more residential units, have seen

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rates of rent not increase as fast,

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but the idea that rent will be declining

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and we see significant downward pressure.

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I just wanna be clear, we don't think that we'll see that,

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especially not early days.

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So I just wanted to be clear about that

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'cause there's been a lot of discussion about this, that

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by doing the Zoning we

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will suddenly have affordable housing.

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And I, I think it's important to notice that, that that's,

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these are large scale market forces.

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You may see more affordable housing

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outside the Borough further away

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because you may seem, you know,

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obviously there's more demand for housing,

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especially student housing closer to campus.

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So just wanted to be clear about that

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because there's, we had a lot of comments kind

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of all over the map related to that topic.

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Second thing is to support, really try

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to support our thriving downtown commercial districts

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and walkable neighborhood business districts.

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To Mr. Garner's point earlier, looking at ways,

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and we're gonna talk later today about maybe being more

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permissive with some uses throughout the residential zones.

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And then finally to do a better job calibrating our parking

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requirements since we, you know, we, we've tried to

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reduce the amount of at least residential parking that's

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required in the community.

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00:12:16,100 --> 00:12:18,767
Some other topics for the basis

263
00:12:18,900 --> 00:12:20,100
for doing the Zoning revision

264
00:12:20,133 --> 00:12:21,867
or the new ordinances to modernize it.

265
00:12:22,066 --> 00:12:25,133
Make it easier to understand, to clear up ambiguities

266
00:12:25,467 --> 00:12:28,300
and make the regulatory language easier to follow.

267
00:12:29,100 --> 00:12:31,467
And also, again, maintain that diversity of,

268
00:12:32,233 --> 00:12:35,233
of long-term residents and student re resident occupancy.

269
00:12:35,233 --> 00:12:37,500
Knowing that the student housing market is so strong

270
00:12:37,934 --> 00:12:40,033
that without trying to do other things to

271
00:12:40,567 --> 00:12:42,300
maintain long-term residents, we would,

272
00:12:42,367 --> 00:12:44,100
we would see a lot more of our single family

273
00:12:44,100 --> 00:12:45,934
and duplexes convert to student housing.

274
00:12:48,233 --> 00:12:50,533
A couple things about sort of when we're writing the code.

275
00:12:50,867 --> 00:12:52,700
So we sort of, this is a test

276
00:12:52,700 --> 00:12:54,300
for when we're looking at the Ordinance language

277
00:12:54,300 --> 00:12:55,567
first, do we think it's legal?

278
00:12:55,934 --> 00:12:57,266
And if we don't know if it's legal,

279
00:12:57,367 --> 00:12:58,634
do we think we'd have a reasonable

280
00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:00,467
expectation of success in court?

281
00:13:00,467 --> 00:13:02,100
Obviously knowing that you never really know

282
00:13:02,100 --> 00:13:04,266
until you're in court and a judge has made a ruling.

283
00:13:04,367 --> 00:13:07,100
So secondly, is the language clear

284
00:13:07,433 --> 00:13:09,834
and can it be something that staff can operationalize,

285
00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:11,567
that we can enforce and can make sure

286
00:13:11,567 --> 00:13:14,133
that the private sector understands what they are

287
00:13:14,133 --> 00:13:16,266
and are not allowed to do with their property.

288
00:13:17,100 --> 00:13:19,567
And then third is, is there a reasonable expectation

289
00:13:19,634 --> 00:13:21,734
that these changes will actually lead to change,

290
00:13:22,033 --> 00:13:24,834
that you will actually see the market respond

291
00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:26,066
and build some of

292
00:13:26,233 --> 00:13:28,033
what is now gonna be permitted in the Zoning

293
00:13:29,266 --> 00:13:30,333
hunter view and comment.

294
00:13:30,900 --> 00:13:33,100
So we have a entire Zoning page

295
00:13:33,100 --> 00:13:34,333
dedicated to the new Ordinance.

296
00:13:35,266 --> 00:13:38,066
And if you are interested in submitting, first of all, we,

297
00:13:38,166 --> 00:13:40,934
we, this is, this is actually, it's gotten longer,

298
00:13:41,834 --> 00:13:44,367
but this is where we're putting all of the public comments

299
00:13:45,567 --> 00:13:47,100
as well as any petitions that we get.

300
00:13:48,100 --> 00:13:50,867
And when I say petitions typically mean like a form email

301
00:13:51,333 --> 00:13:53,734
where a lot of people send the exact same email just

302
00:13:53,734 --> 00:13:58,133
with all the different addresses if you can,

303
00:13:58,266 --> 00:14:00,533
we would really prefer the use

304
00:14:00,667 --> 00:14:03,100
of a Excel spreadsheet to provide comments.

305
00:14:03,667 --> 00:14:04,367
I'll be honest with you,

306
00:14:04,500 --> 00:14:05,834
only a couple people have done that.

307
00:14:05,867 --> 00:14:09,133
Both are in the room. And so for the most part we, we,

308
00:14:09,333 --> 00:14:10,467
this is something we like,

309
00:14:10,467 --> 00:14:13,333
but we, we know folks are not having the time to do it, so

310
00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:15,066
just get us the, the best thing

311
00:14:15,066 --> 00:14:17,233
that does help us is if you let us know the page

312
00:14:17,233 --> 00:14:18,634
number that you're referencing.

313
00:14:21,567 --> 00:14:23,734
We also provided some information to kind

314
00:14:23,734 --> 00:14:25,033
of help you navigate the Ordinance.

315
00:14:25,266 --> 00:14:27,100
So if you have comments, please provide 'em

316
00:14:27,100 --> 00:14:30,066
to zone State College at State College, pa us

317
00:14:30,867 --> 00:14:33,100
multiple staff, check that email frequently.

318
00:14:35,066 --> 00:14:38,533
Also, we had the reporter ask about the Centre Region comp

319
00:14:38,533 --> 00:14:40,333
plan and the future land use map.

320
00:14:40,433 --> 00:14:44,100
So we did create a a page on our website that sort

321
00:14:44,100 --> 00:14:46,533
of sends the viewer to the CRPA material.

322
00:14:47,066 --> 00:14:48,266
And again, just to remind everybody,

323
00:14:48,333 --> 00:14:51,033
if you have thoughts on the future land use map, please

324
00:14:51,734 --> 00:14:55,533
go ahead and, you know, check into the online resources

325
00:14:55,533 --> 00:14:56,634
that CRPA has provided.

326
00:14:59,066 --> 00:15:01,834
Gonna go through sort of the timeline on where we're at.

327
00:15:01,934 --> 00:15:04,500
So as Zoe said, we've got two more meetings after this

328
00:15:04,500 --> 00:15:06,934
before hitting the deadline for recommendations

329
00:15:06,934 --> 00:15:08,066
to Borough council.

330
00:15:08,867 --> 00:15:12,700
So today we're gonna focus on summarizing residential, some

331
00:15:12,700 --> 00:15:15,000
of the changes in the Zoning map and then ADUs

332
00:15:15,467 --> 00:15:17,133
and a few other things like home occupations.

333
00:15:17,533 --> 00:15:18,567
That's come up quite a bit.

334
00:15:20,367 --> 00:15:23,000
The goal is to have a memo prepared.

335
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,367
We, we started it in sort of graphic form

336
00:15:25,567 --> 00:15:27,066
or I'm gonna show you that at the end

337
00:15:27,066 --> 00:15:29,734
of the presentation about what we think we're gonna be able

338
00:15:29,734 --> 00:15:32,700
to provide, please see to help you guys make decisions on

339
00:15:32,700 --> 00:15:34,033
the, hopefully on the 21st.

340
00:15:34,667 --> 00:15:37,033
So our objective is to have a draft out to you

341
00:15:37,033 --> 00:15:41,033
for the meeting on the 14th within having more time

342
00:15:41,033 --> 00:15:42,033
to finalize it on the 21st.

343
00:15:45,100 --> 00:15:47,033
We're on a show in terms of public involvement

344
00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,500
and planning commission Zoning or vision committee in.

345
00:15:50,700 --> 00:15:53,266
So this kind of the run of show is we're gonna go

346
00:15:53,266 --> 00:15:55,834
through summary content related to residential

347
00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:59,066
and ask for PC and ZA comments, then Public Comment.

348
00:15:59,500 --> 00:16:01,533
Then we're gonna workshop the ADUs

349
00:16:01,567 --> 00:16:03,333
and then we're gonna have some discussion on transitional

350
00:16:03,467 --> 00:16:05,734
zones, a little bit on, on transitional.

351
00:16:05,834 --> 00:16:08,000
So that those would be the three main chunks.

352
00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:10,367
And again, finally we'll we will preview the agenda

353
00:16:10,667 --> 00:16:12,033
for eight 14 and 8 21.

354
00:16:12,300 --> 00:16:15,700
Does that make sense everybody? Alright. Okay.

355
00:16:15,700 --> 00:16:17,300
So some changes to the Zoning map.

356
00:16:17,900 --> 00:16:19,033
We've got it on the easel.

357
00:16:19,367 --> 00:16:24,033
You're gonna see more, more zoomed in map soon.

358
00:16:24,166 --> 00:16:26,066
So just hang in there. I know this is hard to see,

359
00:16:26,100 --> 00:16:27,767
but I just wanna talk a couple broad things.

360
00:16:28,834 --> 00:16:31,367
One is, one of the things that staff has wrestled

361
00:16:31,367 --> 00:16:32,834
with is this mixed use district

362
00:16:32,900 --> 00:16:35,066
and the fact that it didn't require more

363
00:16:35,066 --> 00:16:36,100
than residential uses.

364
00:16:36,100 --> 00:16:39,033
So we're, we're recommending that if we're doing mixed use,

365
00:16:39,033 --> 00:16:41,100
that it should require at least two,

366
00:16:41,867 --> 00:16:44,567
at least one non-residential use along with residential use.

367
00:16:45,567 --> 00:16:49,100
And so thinking about that requirement led us

368
00:16:49,100 --> 00:16:52,467
to move away from having mixed use up against the Highlands

369
00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,133
R two district in the far eastern part of downtown

370
00:16:55,634 --> 00:16:57,367
and instead just extending the RO zone,

371
00:16:57,367 --> 00:17:01,867
which is already essentially where the, the area

372
00:17:01,900 --> 00:17:04,700
around the, the, the church is.

373
00:17:05,834 --> 00:17:07,033
So that that's one change.

374
00:17:07,033 --> 00:17:11,066
The second is the RO area that is around boroughs, kind

375
00:17:11,066 --> 00:17:14,033
of the 200 block the south boroughs right now

376
00:17:14,033 --> 00:17:16,133
that's ro we'd be recommending that be mixed use

377
00:17:16,834 --> 00:17:18,767
and it essentially that is able

378
00:17:18,767 --> 00:17:21,033
to extend downtown another block in terms

379
00:17:21,033 --> 00:17:24,100
of giving some more commercial uses based on the feedback

380
00:17:24,100 --> 00:17:25,867
that we've gotten in the last couple meetings.

381
00:17:26,033 --> 00:17:29,734
We also changed the map to move the

382
00:17:30,266 --> 00:17:32,867
downtown central district up against the university

383
00:17:32,867 --> 00:17:34,033
campus in the west end.

384
00:17:34,166 --> 00:17:35,767
That seemed to be something that there was a lot

385
00:17:35,767 --> 00:17:38,233
of discussion about as far

386
00:17:38,233 --> 00:17:40,834
as wanting more density up against the university.

387
00:17:40,934 --> 00:17:43,700
So it's reducing the West end district

388
00:17:43,834 --> 00:17:45,333
to essentially just those parcels

389
00:17:45,333 --> 00:17:46,834
that are fronting on West College

390
00:17:47,367 --> 00:17:50,233
and then making the downtown central zone,

391
00:17:50,934 --> 00:17:52,567
as you can see on the left hand side there,

392
00:17:53,166 --> 00:17:55,500
run along basically the, the block

393
00:17:55,500 --> 00:17:57,233
that is adjacent to campus.

394
00:17:58,667 --> 00:18:01,100
So I think those are the main highlights on the changes.

395
00:18:01,367 --> 00:18:03,100
And then again, we're gonna go over a few other things

396
00:18:03,233 --> 00:18:05,100
as we get further into the presentation.

397
00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:09,567
All right, just to, just to confirm,

398
00:18:10,500 --> 00:18:13,300
we've discussed this a couple times now, is we wanted

399
00:18:13,300 --> 00:18:15,834
to ensure that the dimensional standards

400
00:18:15,834 --> 00:18:17,634
that are in the zone, there was a lot of back

401
00:18:17,634 --> 00:18:20,533
and forth between how one family versus two family were

402
00:18:20,533 --> 00:18:21,767
treated versus three and four.

403
00:18:22,533 --> 00:18:24,000
So just trying to be consistent.

404
00:18:24,734 --> 00:18:26,000
Also changing a lot with,

405
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,000
so we wanna talk a little bit about lot widths of

406
00:18:28,333 --> 00:18:30,467
of going from 50 feet minimum lot width

407
00:18:30,467 --> 00:18:34,066
and R two down to 40, talking about getting rid

408
00:18:34,066 --> 00:18:36,500
of the R three B district and just sticking with R four.

409
00:18:37,734 --> 00:18:40,133
Allowing R four to go to four stories with an incentive

410
00:18:40,734 --> 00:18:43,100
for making sure the whole building is Lee Gold.

411
00:18:44,033 --> 00:18:46,233
And also these neighborhood compatibility standards which

412
00:18:46,233 --> 00:18:50,467
essentially limits the height of a multifamily or

413
00:18:50,500 --> 00:18:51,734
or mixed use development

414
00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,333
to three stories if it's within the R one

415
00:18:54,333 --> 00:18:56,834
or R two zones within a hundred feet of the R one

416
00:18:56,834 --> 00:19:00,266
and R two zones and to four stories within 150 feet.

417
00:19:02,834 --> 00:19:05,033
So just to focus on the changes, what,

418
00:19:05,066 --> 00:19:08,033
what we would recommend in the R two district you can see is

419
00:19:08,066 --> 00:19:11,834
treating single family and duplexes the same in R two

420
00:19:12,333 --> 00:19:15,066
and reducing minimum lot width from 75 feet to 50.

421
00:19:15,867 --> 00:19:19,533
And then also doing the same with making sure that three

422
00:19:19,734 --> 00:19:21,767
and four is also 50.

423
00:19:22,233 --> 00:19:25,300
You can see maximum height in R two would still be two

424
00:19:25,300 --> 00:19:30,033
stories and 28 feet In the R three district.

425
00:19:30,500 --> 00:19:33,000
Dropping that minimum size from 50 down to 40.

426
00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:35,767
And then again treating single family

427
00:19:35,767 --> 00:19:40,066
and duplex the same, same thing in the R three H district

428
00:19:40,066 --> 00:19:41,166
going from 50 to 40

429
00:19:43,133 --> 00:19:45,133
and in our four we'd have,

430
00:19:45,367 --> 00:19:48,266
we would actually create a minimum lot width of 40 feet

431
00:19:49,100 --> 00:19:51,300
and then we would add an additional option to go

432
00:19:51,300 --> 00:19:54,133
to four stories if there was a lead certification

433
00:19:54,133 --> 00:19:55,300
for gold for the entire building.

434
00:19:58,300 --> 00:20:02,000
Just to show that change of going from 50 to 40,

435
00:20:03,100 --> 00:20:07,000
this is all of the minimum lot width at 50 feet

436
00:20:07,100 --> 00:20:09,700
and you get about 4,500,

437
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:14,433
roughly 4,500 lots that are conforming.

438
00:20:14,867 --> 00:20:19,033
If you go to 40, you end up with about another 400 lots and

439
00:20:19,066 --> 00:20:23,133
and most of those are in our three H up toward the west end

440
00:20:24,033 --> 00:20:26,100
or in the area that we call light's edition,

441
00:20:26,433 --> 00:20:30,700
which is down sort of where Irvin Logan

442
00:20:31,567 --> 00:20:33,367
kind of intersect with South Atherton,

443
00:20:34,133 --> 00:20:36,000
Walnut, et cetera, Crestmont.

444
00:20:39,166 --> 00:20:41,266
And these would be the areas that are R three B

445
00:20:41,266 --> 00:20:44,834
that would go to R four and also

446
00:20:44,834 --> 00:20:46,066
Foxdale, which is R three B.

447
00:20:48,433 --> 00:20:51,066
And then again our suggestion is in that

448
00:20:51,100 --> 00:20:53,000
that we change the neighborhood compatibility

449
00:20:53,100 --> 00:20:56,100
to focus on R one and R two, not R three or R three H.

450
00:20:58,166 --> 00:21:01,100
And this is where that would mostly then affect

451
00:21:02,166 --> 00:21:03,367
increased height density.

452
00:21:03,700 --> 00:21:06,567
So you see on the left side up on the west end.

453
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:10,100
So those parcels that are adjacent to R two on the far side

454
00:21:10,100 --> 00:21:12,133
of west college that are

455
00:21:12,266 --> 00:21:14,834
that west end district right now allows you to go up

456
00:21:14,834 --> 00:21:16,567
to six stories in the Ordinance

457
00:21:17,033 --> 00:21:18,867
because of that compatibility language

458
00:21:19,033 --> 00:21:21,634
that would only allow those parcels to be three stories.

459
00:21:22,367 --> 00:21:25,033
Same thing goes with the R four district at the edge

460
00:21:25,033 --> 00:21:28,867
of the Highlands, that would be right now it,

461
00:21:29,333 --> 00:21:31,333
the RO district allows up to four stories

462
00:21:31,333 --> 00:21:32,867
because of that compatibility.

463
00:21:33,100 --> 00:21:35,467
We only allow three stories in that area that's highlighted.

464
00:21:39,834 --> 00:21:41,066
A couple other things that we've talked about

465
00:21:41,066 --> 00:21:43,934
that we just wanted to get some clarity from planning

466
00:21:43,934 --> 00:21:45,100
commission about is we've,

467
00:21:45,133 --> 00:21:47,834
we've had some public comments about increasing standard

468
00:21:47,867 --> 00:21:49,934
occupancy to go from

469
00:21:50,867 --> 00:21:53,033
a family plus two unrelated individuals

470
00:21:53,033 --> 00:21:54,000
to a family plus three

471
00:21:54,133 --> 00:21:57,767
or to a total of four unrelated individuals in a property

472
00:21:58,033 --> 00:22:01,634
and also allow third floor residence residential occupancy

473
00:22:01,734 --> 00:22:03,634
and those that buildings that are existing.

474
00:22:03,900 --> 00:22:07,834
So we have a lot of larger homes that are taller that go

475
00:22:07,834 --> 00:22:08,867
above 28 feet

476
00:22:09,133 --> 00:22:10,266
and above two stories,

477
00:22:10,266 --> 00:22:13,133
which is the current minimum for our two.

478
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:16,100
And so this would permit that third floor occupancy.

479
00:22:16,100 --> 00:22:18,266
We would suggest having some form controls in place

480
00:22:18,367 --> 00:22:20,033
to manage, you know, fire escapes

481
00:22:20,033 --> 00:22:21,734
or other egress, make sure that

482
00:22:21,734 --> 00:22:23,867
that was not coming out the front of the building.

483
00:22:24,333 --> 00:22:25,500
We would push that to the back,

484
00:22:26,634 --> 00:22:29,300
but the numbers on the right kind of give you an idea of

485
00:22:29,300 --> 00:22:31,734
how many additional housing opportunities

486
00:22:31,734 --> 00:22:33,000
you would create by that change.

487
00:22:33,567 --> 00:22:35,100
So you'd end up with a potential

488
00:22:35,100 --> 00:22:37,300
of roughly 975 additional occupants.

489
00:22:37,333 --> 00:22:41,033
Of those roughly 400 could be students

490
00:22:41,500 --> 00:22:42,700
because of the properties that

491
00:22:43,100 --> 00:22:44,367
that have student home permits.

492
00:22:47,100 --> 00:22:48,934
So just graphical representation.

493
00:22:52,734 --> 00:22:54,000
So a couple outstanding things

494
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:55,467
that have come up from public comments.

495
00:22:56,467 --> 00:23:01,033
One is a number of folks have brought up the R one zone

496
00:23:01,634 --> 00:23:03,367
and is that an opportunity to

497
00:23:04,266 --> 00:23:05,266
increase housing opportunities?

498
00:23:06,100 --> 00:23:07,567
Why do we still have the R one zone?

499
00:23:08,333 --> 00:23:10,734
I can't tell you that answer as far as when it was created.

500
00:23:12,066 --> 00:23:13,100
I haven't had a chance to go back

501
00:23:13,100 --> 00:23:16,033
and look to see when that zone was originally created,

502
00:23:16,100 --> 00:23:18,033
but it, it's a relatively small part of the Borough

503
00:23:19,033 --> 00:23:20,266
and so there's been a number

504
00:23:20,266 --> 00:23:22,467
of comments about just making everything R two

505
00:23:22,500 --> 00:23:25,367
or in the end maybe we just make it all R one

506
00:23:25,367 --> 00:23:26,567
with the R two standards.

507
00:23:27,166 --> 00:23:29,467
We're trying to clean up some of the nomenclature of the,

508
00:23:29,467 --> 00:23:30,767
of the districts as well.

509
00:23:32,266 --> 00:23:36,700
Second is a question staff has is we've heard comments on

510
00:23:36,700 --> 00:23:39,233
both sides of the equation about in in including

511
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,100
the deed restricted triplexes and quads in R two

512
00:23:43,667 --> 00:23:45,734
or just removing that section from the Ordinance

513
00:23:45,734 --> 00:23:48,133
or just removing it from R two and allowing it in R three

514
00:23:48,233 --> 00:23:49,767
or some of the denser districts.

515
00:23:50,867 --> 00:23:52,033
And we've had, there's been a lot

516
00:23:52,033 --> 00:23:53,533
of comments on both sides of that equation.

517
00:23:54,266 --> 00:23:56,700
So we would love to get some certainty from planning

518
00:23:56,700 --> 00:23:59,233
commission on that in terms of what your recommendation is.

519
00:24:00,667 --> 00:24:03,767
Third sort of discussion, there's been a lot

520
00:24:03,767 --> 00:24:06,467
of comments about making home occupations more permissive.

521
00:24:07,066 --> 00:24:08,567
I have a slide here a few minutes ago

522
00:24:08,567 --> 00:24:10,000
and it's a little more detail on that,

523
00:24:10,367 --> 00:24:12,033
but we'd like to get some direction on that.

524
00:24:12,934 --> 00:24:15,767
Fourth, we've identified a couple places

525
00:24:15,767 --> 00:24:18,066
where the neighborhood commercial Zoning district works

526
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,834
based on existing uses and so we're gonna show you that

527
00:24:21,934 --> 00:24:23,100
but there it's really limited

528
00:24:23,700 --> 00:24:26,100
and we're interested in if there's other ideas

529
00:24:26,166 --> 00:24:29,266
and where to create that neighborhood commercial district,

530
00:24:29,266 --> 00:24:31,634
which again is 3000 square foot maximum

531
00:24:32,066 --> 00:24:35,300
building no more than three stories allows for mixed use.

532
00:24:35,467 --> 00:24:38,333
But the idea being a small mixed use building

533
00:24:38,767 --> 00:24:40,500
that would have commercial on the first floor.

534
00:24:41,467 --> 00:24:44,133
And then finally discussing some of the additional form

535
00:24:44,133 --> 00:24:45,934
and standards governing fraternities.

536
00:24:45,934 --> 00:24:47,767
We've had a lot of comments on fraternities, so I wanted

537
00:24:47,767 --> 00:24:50,066
to go over some additional revisions on that too.

538
00:24:52,367 --> 00:24:54,533
Alright, so first is this is the R two

539
00:24:54,533 --> 00:24:58,100
or the R one district, again the very light, light yellow.

540
00:24:59,100 --> 00:25:02,333
And so there's been some comments about why and,

541
00:25:02,433 --> 00:25:06,000
and right now you could really, from a use standpoint, most

542
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,100
of the uses are relatively the same in R one

543
00:25:08,100 --> 00:25:10,000
and R two it's just different dimensional standards.

544
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:11,467
And R one has the country club.

545
00:25:11,634 --> 00:25:13,066
So I don't think

546
00:25:13,066 --> 00:25:15,567
that we're gonna see another country club created in R two.

547
00:25:16,100 --> 00:25:18,300
So I don't see a whole lot of danger of making

548
00:25:19,133 --> 00:25:20,634
that use permitted in R two,

549
00:25:21,734 --> 00:25:23,834
but that, that's kind of the key difference

550
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:25,033
between R one and R two.

551
00:25:25,033 --> 00:25:26,934
Besides in the draft,

552
00:25:27,133 --> 00:25:29,867
R one does still have a minimum square footage requirement

553
00:25:29,867 --> 00:25:31,734
for lots, which is 12,000 square feet

554
00:25:32,467 --> 00:25:33,700
essentially just carries

555
00:25:33,700 --> 00:25:35,133
through the standard center in today's Ordinance.

556
00:25:35,467 --> 00:25:39,000
So just looking for some input if PC would like us

557
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:43,100
to remove this or leave it in and if so, any changes.

558
00:25:48,667 --> 00:25:50,834
- Okay. - Anita,

559
00:25:52,133 --> 00:25:54,100
- What I commented on was a lot

560
00:25:54,100 --> 00:25:57,533
of R one looks exactly like R two if you drive through,

561
00:25:57,734 --> 00:26:02,266
but parts of it out evergreen drive for instance, which is

562
00:26:03,100 --> 00:26:05,867
the uppermost part of R one, there's a lot

563
00:26:05,867 --> 00:26:07,333
of buildable land in there.

564
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:09,634
Now, if the homeowners

565
00:26:09,667 --> 00:26:11,767
or landowners wish to keep it that way,

566
00:26:11,900 --> 00:26:13,033
obviously they could.

567
00:26:13,667 --> 00:26:16,233
But if we're looking for a place to put in more housing,

568
00:26:16,333 --> 00:26:18,734
that one does seem usable.

569
00:26:23,634 --> 00:26:26,634
- Okay. Anyone else from the planning commission?

570
00:26:29,533 --> 00:26:31,033
Anyone else from the ZA?

571
00:26:35,333 --> 00:26:38,367
Go ahead. Yeah, you can. Yeah,

572
00:26:40,066 --> 00:26:41,066
- John Sep.

573
00:26:41,266 --> 00:26:45,567
Okay, ed, I, I don't know if this is in the standards,

574
00:26:45,667 --> 00:26:49,700
but historically there are some criteria in the R one

575
00:26:50,367 --> 00:26:52,266
that carries through the other districts

576
00:26:52,367 --> 00:26:55,033
and if you just, if you get rid of R one, just no.

577
00:26:55,100 --> 00:26:57,634
- Yeah, so that, that's been one of the big objectives

578
00:26:57,734 --> 00:27:02,133
for the whole Ordinance is if you'll permit me to geek out

579
00:27:02,133 --> 00:27:05,000
for just one moment, our Zoning Ordinance is what's called

580
00:27:05,233 --> 00:27:08,934
Euclidean and that is it, it builds upon e each district

581
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:11,934
as it gets denser or more intense.

582
00:27:12,033 --> 00:27:13,233
And so a lot

583
00:27:13,233 --> 00:27:16,000
of our Zoning is based on a whole lot of standards in R one.

584
00:27:16,133 --> 00:27:17,333
Those standards have been pulled out

585
00:27:17,433 --> 00:27:19,066
and actually done the right way,

586
00:27:19,066 --> 00:27:21,066
which is a section of standards.

587
00:27:21,433 --> 00:27:24,000
So it's not, I mean right now we have commercial standards

588
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,033
in R one, which makes no sense,

589
00:27:26,133 --> 00:27:27,533
but that's just what's happened over time.

590
00:27:27,734 --> 00:27:31,000
So yeah, to your point, a lot of, a lot of those things

591
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:33,500
that are in R one have been pulled into the standards

592
00:27:33,500 --> 00:27:35,634
section and so they're no longer just in R one

593
00:27:35,634 --> 00:27:37,100
that are standards that pertain

594
00:27:37,100 --> 00:27:39,467
to whichever Zoning district they need to pertain to

595
00:27:39,734 --> 00:27:42,767
or in a lot of cases they're now in use standards. So thank

596
00:27:42,767 --> 00:27:43,767
- You.

597
00:27:44,066 --> 00:27:46,834
- Yeah, so I'm just talking about R one from a dimensional

598
00:27:47,100 --> 00:27:48,934
standard and a use standard standpoint.

599
00:27:49,100 --> 00:27:51,467
So right now the basic difference is

600
00:27:52,066 --> 00:27:55,500
that you've got larger lots and only single family homes.

601
00:27:56,734 --> 00:28:00,266
- I, I should add too, a lot of cities have decided

602
00:28:01,100 --> 00:28:03,300
that golf courses are not the best

603
00:28:04,300 --> 00:28:06,867
general public community use of

604
00:28:07,500 --> 00:28:09,700
land in densely built up areas.

605
00:28:10,367 --> 00:28:12,934
Now we're talking about the country club land,

606
00:28:13,367 --> 00:28:16,033
but there are other golf courses in this Borough

607
00:28:16,066 --> 00:28:17,867
that could provide quite a bit of housing.

608
00:28:18,033 --> 00:28:19,767
So that's something to think about.

609
00:28:22,100 --> 00:28:23,834
- Well you also, we never know what this,

610
00:28:23,934 --> 00:28:26,300
would the country club be interested in selling some

611
00:28:26,300 --> 00:28:27,767
of their property for housing development?

612
00:28:27,767 --> 00:28:29,266
You Well, yeah. I haven't had any

613
00:28:29,266 --> 00:28:30,333
of those conversations. Yeah,

614
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,033
- Zoe, we do have Ron online with comments.

615
00:28:34,066 --> 00:28:38,500
- Okay, Ron, - I, I move

616
00:28:38,500 --> 00:28:41,734
that we leave the R one district the way it is

617
00:28:43,500 --> 00:28:45,734
when we talk about the R two in the other districts.

618
00:28:45,734 --> 00:28:48,133
I'll have a, I'll have a motion to do

619
00:28:48,133 --> 00:28:50,300
that if we leave the R one the way it is and

620
00:28:50,300 --> 00:28:53,133
because it has lots that can be

621
00:28:54,367 --> 00:28:58,567
where ADUs and triplex and quadplexes could be put in.

622
00:28:59,133 --> 00:29:02,066
If we leave it alone, that provides that opportunity.

623
00:29:02,433 --> 00:29:04,033
If we include it in the R two,

624
00:29:04,100 --> 00:29:06,266
that becomes a problem which I will address later.

625
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,266
So my motion is to leave the R one as is,

626
00:29:14,500 --> 00:29:15,100
is there a second?

627
00:29:15,533 --> 00:29:19,634
- It Second. Second. Tony seconds.

628
00:29:21,266 --> 00:29:23,433
Okay. Any further discussion?

629
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:29,000
Come?

630
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:36,700
- Yeah. Eric Bell, wasn't it me?

631
00:29:38,100 --> 00:29:42,000
I'd like to hear Ron's reasoning for not combining R one

632
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,934
and R two before you vote on deciding

633
00:29:45,266 --> 00:29:46,700
to leave it one way or the other.

634
00:29:51,734 --> 00:29:53,233
- Okay, go ahead Ron.

635
00:29:53,367 --> 00:29:56,066
- My, my motion in the, my motion in the R two is

636
00:29:56,066 --> 00:30:01,000
to exclude the R two for me to use plexes

637
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,500
and quadplexes because the R two

638
00:30:04,467 --> 00:30:06,333
Zoning district includes most

639
00:30:06,333 --> 00:30:08,266
of the established neighborhoods within the Borough.

640
00:30:08,934 --> 00:30:12,567
But if we're gonna put in additional housing units, R one

641
00:30:12,567 --> 00:30:15,033
and R three and four would be, would be

642
00:30:17,667 --> 00:30:21,634
our, our notionally outside the established neighborhoods.

643
00:30:28,033 --> 00:30:30,533
- Okay. Further discussion.

644
00:30:34,033 --> 00:30:37,033
- I so I'm left confused or, or not confused,

645
00:30:37,266 --> 00:30:39,467
but of two minds.

646
00:30:39,734 --> 00:30:40,934
I see Ron's point,

647
00:30:42,533 --> 00:30:45,433
but we're trying to vote on R one,

648
00:30:45,500 --> 00:30:48,033
conditionally about talking about R two

649
00:30:48,567 --> 00:30:51,233
and that does leave it up in the air.

650
00:30:54,033 --> 00:30:58,266
- But if you leave R one alone at the moment,

651
00:30:59,233 --> 00:31:02,100
and if my motion in R two is passed,

652
00:31:03,166 --> 00:31:05,066
then no harm, no foul.

653
00:31:05,233 --> 00:31:08,934
If my motion in R two is not passed, then you can go back

654
00:31:08,934 --> 00:31:10,367
and change R one if you want.

655
00:31:11,367 --> 00:31:14,033
- Okay. I mean we could always just,

656
00:31:14,100 --> 00:31:15,100
I mean there's a motion on the table.

657
00:31:16,033 --> 00:31:17,634
Yeah, you, you could table,

658
00:31:19,734 --> 00:31:22,100
but you know, we're, we're just asking for guidance and,

659
00:31:22,133 --> 00:31:23,700
and using motions as a way to do

660
00:31:23,700 --> 00:31:25,133
that is good from a clarity standpoint.

661
00:31:25,166 --> 00:31:27,367
But if, if you wanna vote on it now

662
00:31:27,433 --> 00:31:31,634
and then whoever would vote,

663
00:31:32,266 --> 00:31:33,767
actually my recollection is you have,

664
00:31:33,834 --> 00:31:36,000
if it's somebody voted yes, would have

665
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:37,867
to then bring it back onto the table

666
00:31:37,934 --> 00:31:39,333
after the R two conversation.

667
00:31:40,433 --> 00:31:42,066
If I remember my Robert's rules from college

668
00:31:46,567 --> 00:31:47,734
- Sounds like it would be a good

669
00:31:47,734 --> 00:31:49,033
idea to table for the moment.

670
00:31:49,934 --> 00:31:52,734
- Ron, how would you feel about tabling this motion?

671
00:31:54,066 --> 00:31:54,867
- That would be fine.

672
00:31:55,767 --> 00:31:59,433
- Okay, let's do that.

673
00:31:59,700 --> 00:32:01,567
- Yeah, we do need a vote to table. Oh

674
00:32:01,567 --> 00:32:02,567
- We do need a vote.

675
00:32:02,567 --> 00:32:06,133
Okay. Vote to table. Anita.

676
00:32:07,033 --> 00:32:10,133
Motions to table this motion. Do we need a second?

677
00:32:13,033 --> 00:32:14,300
- Actually, yeah,

678
00:32:14,467 --> 00:32:15,467
- I'm okay.

679
00:32:15,467 --> 00:32:20,066
We just vote. All in favor of tabling Ron's motion.

680
00:32:20,700 --> 00:32:22,100
Say aye. Aye.

681
00:32:23,100 --> 00:32:27,100
- Aye. - Opposed? Okay. All

682
00:32:27,100 --> 00:32:28,667
- Right, so let's go to the triplex.

683
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:30,033
'cause I think this is to Ron's point.

684
00:32:30,033 --> 00:32:31,300
So the next item is,

685
00:32:33,066 --> 00:32:37,734
as the draft is written right now, it would permit triplex

686
00:32:37,934 --> 00:32:42,467
and quadplex dwellings only if those dwellings would be deed

687
00:32:42,700 --> 00:32:44,634
restricted to prohibit university and college students

688
00:32:44,934 --> 00:32:46,567
and prohibit short term rental use.

689
00:32:47,667 --> 00:32:49,066
The deed restriction would be

690
00:32:49,066 --> 00:32:50,100
approved by the planning department.

691
00:32:50,133 --> 00:32:52,333
We've already talked to the solicitor about, you know,

692
00:32:52,333 --> 00:32:54,233
drafting what that deed restriction would look like.

693
00:32:54,233 --> 00:32:55,834
So we'd have a standard deed restriction

694
00:32:55,834 --> 00:32:59,767
that everybody would have to use and we, you know,

695
00:32:59,767 --> 00:33:02,033
the Zoning permit wouldn't be approved until we had

696
00:33:02,033 --> 00:33:03,333
that deed restriction.

697
00:33:03,834 --> 00:33:06,300
Essentially it would be recorded with the property.

698
00:33:07,367 --> 00:33:09,734
And also if you recall, since we're getting rid

699
00:33:09,734 --> 00:33:12,066
of minimum lot size, but for triplexes

700
00:33:12,100 --> 00:33:14,000
and for quads, there would still be a minimum

701
00:33:14,066 --> 00:33:16,100
of 10,000 square feet for minimum mo.

702
00:33:16,433 --> 00:33:19,000
That's consistent with the current minimum MO size

703
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,634
for a single family home in R two.

704
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:23,333
So that's where the 10,000 comes from.

705
00:33:24,900 --> 00:33:26,634
So we we're just looking for some direction

706
00:33:27,133 --> 00:33:28,000
on planning commissions.

707
00:33:29,934 --> 00:33:32,066
Do you want to see this in Ron suggested

708
00:33:32,066 --> 00:33:33,100
that we pull it out of R two.

709
00:33:33,567 --> 00:33:34,767
I'm just trying to get some clarity.

710
00:33:38,467 --> 00:33:42,634
- Ron, go ahead. - I think we ought to include that

711
00:33:42,634 --> 00:33:44,033
with the discussion on the A DU

712
00:33:44,500 --> 00:33:45,500
'cause I think they're all linked.

713
00:33:50,133 --> 00:33:51,567
- They're, they're definitely different

714
00:33:51,567 --> 00:33:52,634
from a Zoning standpoint.

715
00:33:52,834 --> 00:33:54,767
One is an accessory to a principle structure.

716
00:33:54,867 --> 00:33:58,100
This is a principle structure. So no, I, I would disagree.

717
00:33:58,500 --> 00:34:00,767
I think these are, this is a specific use type

718
00:34:01,133 --> 00:34:03,000
that we either want it or we don't.

719
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,567
And then yes, there are similarities with ADUs,

720
00:34:05,567 --> 00:34:06,834
but these are, they're very different things

721
00:34:06,834 --> 00:34:08,000
from what can get constructed.

722
00:34:09,634 --> 00:34:10,767
- Anita? I - Would agree.

723
00:34:10,934 --> 00:34:14,767
I think I'm agreeing with Ron that we don't want

724
00:34:14,767 --> 00:34:18,867
that in the older parts of R two for the simple reason.

725
00:34:19,266 --> 00:34:22,233
It will lead to, I would guess lot consolidation

726
00:34:22,467 --> 00:34:25,367
and tearing down perfectly good existing housing,

727
00:34:25,934 --> 00:34:30,734
which is environmentally a very bad idea both in terms of

728
00:34:30,767 --> 00:34:34,700
what the national trust calls embodied energy and landfill

729
00:34:34,734 --> 00:34:35,767
and all the rest of it.

730
00:34:36,700 --> 00:34:41,266
And it will, which disturb the equilibrium of the,

731
00:34:41,266 --> 00:34:43,100
the older neighborhoods, which is

732
00:34:43,500 --> 00:34:46,767
where there already is in effect a lot of this infill house

733
00:34:46,867 --> 00:34:51,033
or extra housing because of past Zoning rules.

734
00:34:53,367 --> 00:34:55,100
So if you pull it out of R two,

735
00:34:55,433 --> 00:34:57,567
it does seem a much more reasonable idea

736
00:34:58,233 --> 00:35:00,266
or at least the older parts of R two.

737
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:08,266
- Anyone else to speak now?

738
00:35:12,166 --> 00:35:14,367
Somebody from the community?

739
00:35:14,533 --> 00:35:16,033
- Well, let's, let's do Z RAC first.

740
00:35:16,667 --> 00:35:21,100
- Okay. ZA. Okay. There is somebody from Z rac.

741
00:35:21,033 --> 00:35:23,100
Okay, go ahead Susan Ney.

742
00:35:26,033 --> 00:35:27,333
- I think you should leave it in R two

743
00:35:28,066 --> 00:35:29,734
and have it in R one as well.

744
00:35:31,533 --> 00:35:33,100
- And, and could you elaborate?

745
00:35:37,700 --> 00:35:42,233
- I think, I think there are

746
00:35:43,834 --> 00:35:47,734
a number of structures that probably have

747
00:35:48,300 --> 00:35:51,567
outlived their useful life based on

748
00:35:52,266 --> 00:35:57,033
prior Zoning decisions that took them from being a house

749
00:35:58,100 --> 00:35:59,567
into being a rooming house

750
00:35:59,834 --> 00:36:04,000
or, you know, a high

751
00:36:05,066 --> 00:36:08,567
occupancy building and they've been rented and rented

752
00:36:08,567 --> 00:36:09,934
and rented and killed.

753
00:36:10,567 --> 00:36:13,066
So maybe something new in some

754
00:36:13,066 --> 00:36:15,700
of those places would be a good thing.

755
00:36:18,233 --> 00:36:19,467
We do still have the harb,

756
00:36:20,233 --> 00:36:23,233
I don't think everything is just going to be torn down

757
00:36:23,333 --> 00:36:25,934
and turned into quads and triplexes.

758
00:36:27,767 --> 00:36:29,467
I, I just don't see that happening.

759
00:36:29,734 --> 00:36:32,000
I do think though, that

760
00:36:32,834 --> 00:36:35,000
some more housing opportunities could be

761
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,867
created in R two.

762
00:36:38,100 --> 00:36:41,734
We're we're, we have R two, we, we treat R two.

763
00:36:41,834 --> 00:36:46,767
Like everything is single family homes, you know,

764
00:36:46,900 --> 00:36:48,300
and they're, it's not, it isn't.

765
00:36:49,033 --> 00:36:53,700
And, and I think that not all blocks,

766
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:55,333
not all buildings,

767
00:36:55,467 --> 00:36:57,500
not all streets should be treated the same.

768
00:36:58,033 --> 00:36:59,667
And so I hope that you'll leave it in there.

769
00:37:03,367 --> 00:37:06,333
Okay. From the community I,

770
00:37:14,867 --> 00:37:18,133
- David Stone East Foster, also a member

771
00:37:18,133 --> 00:37:19,834
of the Nee Valley Environmental Coalition.

772
00:37:19,834 --> 00:37:22,166
And, and we're, we're looking at this closely, also a member

773
00:37:22,166 --> 00:37:23,834
of the Highland Civic Association.

774
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:25,834
And this is an area

775
00:37:25,867 --> 00:37:27,500
and I, I i i, it's, it's a very,

776
00:37:27,500 --> 00:37:29,033
it's probably the most contentious

777
00:37:29,033 --> 00:37:32,000
and legally fraught part of the changes.

778
00:37:32,667 --> 00:37:35,834
And, and it it's great that it's being discussed.

779
00:37:36,533 --> 00:37:38,133
I have to go back to my objection though.

780
00:37:38,233 --> 00:37:42,166
There needs to be a due process compliant evidence-based

781
00:37:44,300 --> 00:37:46,734
resolution to this if it, if it's gonna be put in,

782
00:37:47,533 --> 00:37:49,033
if it's not gonna be put in.

783
00:37:49,700 --> 00:37:51,367
And I think there are, are ways

784
00:37:51,500 --> 00:37:55,300
to achieve similar housing opportunities without

785
00:37:56,634 --> 00:38:01,033
tear downs on extensive scale of,

786
00:38:02,467 --> 00:38:04,767
as, as people have said, perfectly good,

787
00:38:05,133 --> 00:38:08,667
potentially affordable, accessible single family homes,

788
00:38:08,700 --> 00:38:12,634
which can have ADUs internally

789
00:38:12,900 --> 00:38:14,500
or rental units, however you wanna call it.

790
00:38:14,500 --> 00:38:16,333
But it's complex. And so

791
00:38:18,066 --> 00:38:21,634
I I I would urge people to, as a starting point,

792
00:38:21,700 --> 00:38:23,166
send a clear message both on this

793
00:38:24,533 --> 00:38:29,000
and on the need for counsel to, to take some sort

794
00:38:29,033 --> 00:38:31,767
of an administrative law due process compliant.

795
00:38:31,767 --> 00:38:33,867
And, and I, I don't see the clock running, so I don't know

796
00:38:33,867 --> 00:38:37,934
where my minutes are, but I wanna go back

797
00:38:37,934 --> 00:38:39,066
to the basis for Zoning.

798
00:38:39,066 --> 00:38:40,734
I think it's relevant to this discussion

799
00:38:41,266 --> 00:38:42,333
and it's really kind of strange.

800
00:38:42,333 --> 00:38:43,834
It comes out of the police powers

801
00:38:43,834 --> 00:38:46,700
and there's a lot of language about why you can do that.

802
00:38:46,734 --> 00:38:50,300
And it has to do with, you know, clean air, clean water

803
00:38:52,033 --> 00:38:55,100
environment, but also accessibility of housing.

804
00:38:55,166 --> 00:38:58,266
It's, it's a very complex provision in the, in the code.

805
00:38:58,900 --> 00:39:01,033
And that's why when you're doing alternatives analysis,

806
00:39:01,033 --> 00:39:04,000
you want to have some kind of due process for either side.

807
00:39:04,500 --> 00:39:08,367
And so you don't have the right

808
00:39:08,667 --> 00:39:11,000
to do Zoning for certain reasons.

809
00:39:11,133 --> 00:39:15,000
And part of the justification I have heard for the tear down

810
00:39:16,066 --> 00:39:19,700
trip and quad aren't reasons which I believe are legally

811
00:39:20,133 --> 00:39:22,000
justifiable under the municipal planning

812
00:39:22,066 --> 00:39:23,333
code when it comes down to it.

813
00:39:23,333 --> 00:39:26,000
Particularly because we are in a very unique situation

814
00:39:26,133 --> 00:39:29,100
of having this charter that was passed by referendum.

815
00:39:29,867 --> 00:39:33,266
So insofar as we can either minimize

816
00:39:34,033 --> 00:39:37,433
the disruption, you know, disruption is considered a a plus

817
00:39:37,467 --> 00:39:38,667
for a lot of people advocate

818
00:39:38,667 --> 00:39:39,867
and they want to see tear downs.

819
00:39:39,867 --> 00:39:42,066
They wanna see disruption. That's not legal.

820
00:39:42,367 --> 00:39:43,734
That's not legal in my opinion.

821
00:39:43,900 --> 00:39:45,667
I I don't think it's legal in a lot of lawyers' opinions.

822
00:39:46,900 --> 00:39:50,634
There, there are things you can do to enhance accessibility,

823
00:39:51,300 --> 00:39:52,834
but it's a balancing act.

824
00:39:52,834 --> 00:39:55,433
It's an analysis. And so in administrative law,

825
00:39:55,433 --> 00:39:57,000
whether it's a public utility commission,

826
00:39:57,066 --> 00:39:59,233
nuclear regulatory commission, pendot,

827
00:39:59,533 --> 00:40:01,634
they always do in one way, shape

828
00:40:01,634 --> 00:40:03,934
or form a compliant alternative analysis.

829
00:40:03,934 --> 00:40:05,634
And I, I think everything that's been done here is

830
00:40:05,900 --> 00:40:08,333
constructive, but I don't think it rises to that.

831
00:40:09,467 --> 00:40:11,133
And, and, and I'll, I'll double down on

832
00:40:11,133 --> 00:40:12,433
that point about tear downs.

833
00:40:12,734 --> 00:40:16,000
Tear downs can be very environmental devastation.

834
00:40:16,066 --> 00:40:18,900
Not only in the environmental consequences of landfilling,

835
00:40:18,900 --> 00:40:22,100
the stuff of, of the, of the loss materials costs

836
00:40:22,100 --> 00:40:23,734
and the energy costs, but also to the,

837
00:40:23,834 --> 00:40:25,233
the neighbors as it's torn down.

838
00:40:26,233 --> 00:40:27,934
And there's a way

839
00:40:27,934 --> 00:40:31,367
to very carefully interject some more accessibility.

840
00:40:31,934 --> 00:40:32,934
I don't disagree with that,

841
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:35,467
but I think we need another process.

842
00:40:35,567 --> 00:40:38,000
And I would urge you, no matter what happens on this vote

843
00:40:38,433 --> 00:40:41,867
to do that as well, to call on council to create a process

844
00:40:41,900 --> 00:40:45,767
where people have to come in, you know, establish standing

845
00:40:46,266 --> 00:40:49,033
file contentions and they can do this without a lawyer

846
00:40:49,100 --> 00:40:50,834
and to actually discuss some of this stuff.

847
00:40:51,066 --> 00:40:53,133
'cause a lot of it's legal and we really need Terry Williams

848
00:40:53,133 --> 00:40:56,333
sitting there to, to, to look at all this stuff

849
00:40:56,467 --> 00:40:57,333
and to come up with the

850
00:40:57,333 --> 00:40:58,734
best position for the Borough to be in.

851
00:40:58,734 --> 00:40:59,734
Thank you.

852
00:41:00,100 --> 00:41:04,367
- Do okay, Mr. Gardner. Dr. Gardner

853
00:41:06,500 --> 00:41:08,033
- In two meetings, you already know my name.

854
00:41:08,033 --> 00:41:09,233
Am I that disruptive? Okay.

855
00:41:09,467 --> 00:41:10,834
- And I am gonna put on the,

856
00:41:11,133 --> 00:41:13,533
I was told I should put on this. Okay.

857
00:41:14,433 --> 00:41:16,033
- And - John, don't take that personally. Of course.

858
00:41:16,033 --> 00:41:17,033
You should have done that for David too. So,

859
00:41:17,266 --> 00:41:18,266
- Okay.

860
00:41:18,367 --> 00:41:19,567
How do I get this started?

861
00:41:21,834 --> 00:41:23,567
- I'll just use my time while the timer isn't ticking.

862
00:41:23,567 --> 00:41:25,100
All right, we'll go with that. Okay.

863
00:41:25,567 --> 00:41:29,634
H plus T housing plus transportation is,

864
00:41:29,667 --> 00:41:33,000
is the generally regarded nowadays most important

865
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:34,066
factor in affordability.

866
00:41:34,900 --> 00:41:37,700
And it, it, you may be entirely right

867
00:41:37,767 --> 00:41:40,300
that if we legalize a ton of new building

868
00:41:40,333 --> 00:41:42,233
and get many new apartment complexes,

869
00:41:42,233 --> 00:41:46,066
that may not change the cost of rent itself at all.

870
00:41:46,133 --> 00:41:49,100
However, if we build them close enough to campus

871
00:41:49,100 --> 00:41:51,033
that people don't need to own cars,

872
00:41:51,433 --> 00:41:53,634
we actually do in fact address affordability.

873
00:41:53,900 --> 00:41:56,266
Last I checked, it costs the average person something

874
00:41:56,266 --> 00:42:00,500
ridiculous like $18,000 a year to own

875
00:42:00,567 --> 00:42:02,700
and operate a vehicle and insure it

876
00:42:02,700 --> 00:42:04,000
and register it with the state and everything.

877
00:42:04,266 --> 00:42:07,634
So if we don't build enough dense housing inside

878
00:42:07,634 --> 00:42:10,634
of State College and people are, are forced to,

879
00:42:10,634 --> 00:42:12,233
to live far out in like patent Township

880
00:42:12,233 --> 00:42:13,700
and they have to have a car, then

881
00:42:13,700 --> 00:42:16,533
that's an $18,000 a year extra cost on them.

882
00:42:16,900 --> 00:42:19,000
Conversely, if they live in State College,

883
00:42:19,033 --> 00:42:23,300
the rent can be up to $1,500 per month more

884
00:42:23,500 --> 00:42:24,567
expensive than present.

885
00:42:24,900 --> 00:42:27,333
And it would still be an affordability gain

886
00:42:28,033 --> 00:42:29,533
if they lived in a walkable area

887
00:42:29,533 --> 00:42:30,767
such as they didn't have to own a car.

888
00:42:31,133 --> 00:42:35,000
Now as with respect to duplexes, triplexes, ADUs

889
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:37,867
and whatnot in R one and R two cars are also important.

890
00:42:38,033 --> 00:42:39,266
I I ran the numbers myself.

891
00:42:39,266 --> 00:42:41,533
They're, they're freely available on, on the, the,

892
00:42:41,567 --> 00:42:43,266
the Federal Highway Administration website.

893
00:42:44,033 --> 00:42:46,934
Cars are the number one source

894
00:42:47,100 --> 00:42:49,367
of carbon emissions in the United States right now.

895
00:42:50,100 --> 00:42:54,033
The private automobiles of just Texas alone are responsible

896
00:42:54,033 --> 00:42:55,000
for 0.5%

897
00:42:55,033 --> 00:42:58,734
of all planetary carbon in the atmosphere this instant.

898
00:42:59,333 --> 00:43:03,767
If, if just SUVs, not small cars, not trucks, just

899
00:43:03,767 --> 00:43:05,734
as if just SUVs were their own country,

900
00:43:05,900 --> 00:43:07,567
they would be the sixth largest polluting

901
00:43:07,567 --> 00:43:08,767
nation in human history.

902
00:43:09,233 --> 00:43:11,567
So I understand that of course we do want to

903
00:43:12,033 --> 00:43:15,033
minimize demolitions and that there is a lot of, of built in

904
00:43:16,166 --> 00:43:17,367
energy put into buildings

905
00:43:17,367 --> 00:43:18,834
and then also casting new concrete

906
00:43:18,900 --> 00:43:20,000
does create new carbon emissions.

907
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:23,066
However, if we tore down every single family

908
00:43:23,734 --> 00:43:25,300
home in the Borough right now

909
00:43:25,500 --> 00:43:28,533
and replace them with multifamily houses

910
00:43:28,567 --> 00:43:30,333
that people would not have to own a car for,

911
00:43:30,567 --> 00:43:33,500
that would still end up in a net environmental positive.

912
00:43:33,700 --> 00:43:35,000
So I think it's really important.

913
00:43:35,233 --> 00:43:37,700
I single family homes the existence of that.

914
00:43:37,834 --> 00:43:39,734
I personally don't think that they're good in any way.

915
00:43:39,834 --> 00:43:41,734
I, I've lived in far too many of them in my entire life,

916
00:43:41,900 --> 00:43:43,934
and they've always brought with so many problems,

917
00:43:43,934 --> 00:43:46,467
not the least of which lawns I hate lawns, we shouldn't have

918
00:43:46,467 --> 00:43:49,367
to pay to constantly beat back these annoying weeds.

919
00:43:49,500 --> 00:43:51,033
We should just live in a nice building,

920
00:43:51,100 --> 00:43:52,100
let the weeds be weeds over there

921
00:43:52,100 --> 00:43:53,300
and let us be the humans over here.

922
00:43:53,500 --> 00:43:55,000
But whether or not the concept

923
00:43:55,033 --> 00:43:56,567
of single family homes is appropriate

924
00:43:56,567 --> 00:43:58,033
or not, I think we can all agree that it,

925
00:43:58,033 --> 00:43:59,934
they are not appropriate in a downtown core,

926
00:44:00,133 --> 00:44:01,000
which State College is.

927
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:05,533
We are the center of a 150,000 strong metropolitan area

928
00:44:05,834 --> 00:44:08,033
that is, again, very walkable to the university.

929
00:44:08,667 --> 00:44:11,367
And so I think it's extremely important that we up zone

930
00:44:11,433 --> 00:44:12,634
as much as we can in here.

931
00:44:12,900 --> 00:44:15,000
If people wanna have a single family home, they can do

932
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:16,834
that in patent Township, college Township, hon,

933
00:44:16,934 --> 00:44:19,133
but not within walking distance of the university.

934
00:44:19,233 --> 00:44:20,500
I think that's the most important thing.

935
00:44:20,634 --> 00:44:22,634
So I think it's really important to allow duplexes,

936
00:44:22,634 --> 00:44:25,367
triplexes, and ADUs on every single

937
00:44:25,367 --> 00:44:26,634
Zoning space within the Borough.

938
00:44:27,433 --> 00:44:30,000
And then lastly, I I also do, I I'm strongly opposed

939
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:31,233
to the deed restriction

940
00:44:31,333 --> 00:44:33,133
because if, if you, you all probably know,

941
00:44:33,133 --> 00:44:35,333
so I'm probably mansplaining, but just in case not deed

942
00:44:35,333 --> 00:44:37,467
restrictions started as a way to keep Jewish

943
00:44:37,500 --> 00:44:40,066
and African American people from owning specific homes.

944
00:44:40,467 --> 00:44:42,867
And so it, it's a highly problematic way

945
00:44:42,867 --> 00:44:45,266
of going about things that, that is tied to, to really

946
00:44:46,367 --> 00:44:47,467
immoral things in the past.

947
00:44:47,867 --> 00:44:51,066
And at least in a sense, it's not as bad as a lot

948
00:44:51,066 --> 00:44:53,567
of things happen in history, but this is technically ageist.

949
00:44:53,867 --> 00:44:55,567
Again, we are State College, the students

950
00:44:56,133 --> 00:44:59,000
drive this community, they also bring with them a lot

951
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:00,100
of wealth and spending power.

952
00:45:00,133 --> 00:45:02,467
And so I think it's really important that we also kind

953
00:45:02,467 --> 00:45:06,033
of mix that in more evenly rather than having only the

954
00:45:06,033 --> 00:45:08,634
townie area and then only the undergrad area

955
00:45:08,834 --> 00:45:11,066
and then a, a, a veritable border between them.

956
00:45:11,300 --> 00:45:14,467
Yeah. 16 seconds ago. Yeah, that's good enough. Thank you.

957
00:45:16,266 --> 00:45:21,033
- Okay. How do, how do I stop this? Just clear?

958
00:45:22,066 --> 00:45:23,367
Okay. Learning the box.

959
00:45:27,033 --> 00:45:28,500
And Tony, did you have your hand up?

960
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:34,533
Ron does have his hand up. Okay. Ron,

961
00:45:36,567 --> 00:45:40,066
- Two th two things as far as the harvest is concerned

962
00:45:40,567 --> 00:45:43,333
based, some people know how many,

963
00:45:44,433 --> 00:45:47,166
how many bill historic buildings have been torn down within

964
00:45:47,166 --> 00:45:51,300
the Borough that the council has approved based on requests.

965
00:45:52,133 --> 00:45:55,500
- Zero. - So, zero

966
00:45:56,133 --> 00:45:58,033
zero historic buildings have been torn down

967
00:45:58,567 --> 00:46:02,033
- That the, that the Borough Council approved.

968
00:46:02,133 --> 00:46:05,000
So we've lost historic properties that, for instance,

969
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:07,266
university club that was not covered

970
00:46:07,467 --> 00:46:09,300
by the local historic district.

971
00:46:09,867 --> 00:46:12,567
And obviously I think many of us feel that was a loss.

972
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:17,333
But as far as we, we had a request for a demolition

973
00:46:18,100 --> 00:46:19,100
on East Foster Avenue.

974
00:46:20,033 --> 00:46:22,300
Counsel denied that request.

975
00:46:22,700 --> 00:46:25,767
We were, that decision was appealed to county court.

976
00:46:26,433 --> 00:46:28,567
We successfully defended that at county court.

977
00:46:28,734 --> 00:46:30,567
And the county court found that we,

978
00:46:30,667 --> 00:46:35,066
that the Borough counsel was used the statute correctly

979
00:46:35,533 --> 00:46:36,533
as far as enforcement.

980
00:46:36,634 --> 00:46:39,133
So at this point there's been one request and one denial

981
00:46:39,467 --> 00:46:43,467
and we succeeded in court. Eric was

982
00:46:43,467 --> 00:46:44,467
- After.

983
00:46:44,467 --> 00:46:44,867
Okay.

984
00:46:47,333 --> 00:46:48,934
- Neil Sullivan. The - The other,

985
00:46:49,233 --> 00:46:50,233
- Oh, sorry.

986
00:46:50,233 --> 00:46:51,000
You got more to say.

987
00:46:51,867 --> 00:46:52,867
- Yes. - Oh,

988
00:46:52,867 --> 00:46:53,533
- Sorry.

989
00:46:53,533 --> 00:46:56,700
And, and the other, and the other thing is there are many

990
00:46:57,066 --> 00:46:59,300
different, there is that diversity of housing

991
00:46:59,900 --> 00:47:02,266
opportunities already in the R two district.

992
00:47:02,700 --> 00:47:05,533
All I'm saying is we don't need triplexes

993
00:47:05,533 --> 00:47:07,100
and quadplexes in the R two.

994
00:47:07,266 --> 00:47:10,533
You can put 'em in the R one three and four with no problem

995
00:47:11,533 --> 00:47:14,333
because they're, and when we're talking about walkability

996
00:47:15,567 --> 00:47:16,834
to the university, you're only

997
00:47:16,834 --> 00:47:18,000
talking about three neighborhoods.

998
00:47:18,066 --> 00:47:20,700
College Heights, Highlands and Holmes Foster.

999
00:47:21,667 --> 00:47:25,266
When walkability is walkability in Tussy view.

1000
00:47:25,734 --> 00:47:30,133
Tussy view or, or south or in green Greentree.

1001
00:47:30,667 --> 00:47:34,000
And so again, it it's a, it's a focused area. Focused area.

1002
00:47:36,033 --> 00:47:40,066
And at this point I move that we take triplexes

1003
00:47:40,066 --> 00:47:42,333
and Quadplexes out of the R two.

1004
00:47:43,834 --> 00:47:46,233
- Is there a second for that motion? Second.

1005
00:47:46,834 --> 00:47:49,500
From a second for Anita. Okay. Discussion.

1006
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:52,233
Neil, you had your hand up.

1007
00:47:54,767 --> 00:47:56,133
- This may be coming too late,

1008
00:47:56,166 --> 00:48:00,066
but I just wanted to remind the group

1009
00:48:00,100 --> 00:48:02,934
that when we started the Z rack, one of our goals was

1010
00:48:02,934 --> 00:48:05,634
to increase housing choice and housing affordability.

1011
00:48:07,100 --> 00:48:11,467
Adding the triplexes, quadplexes and other building types.

1012
00:48:11,700 --> 00:48:13,634
NR two certainly would allow that,

1013
00:48:14,467 --> 00:48:16,133
considering the R two takes up the

1014
00:48:16,066 --> 00:48:17,166
majority of the Borough land.

1015
00:48:17,867 --> 00:48:19,133
If, if we take it away

1016
00:48:19,734 --> 00:48:23,100
and we re we resort it down to R one, R three, R four, then

1017
00:48:23,100 --> 00:48:24,934
that's a very small percentage of land

1018
00:48:24,934 --> 00:48:26,133
that's available for this.

1019
00:48:27,133 --> 00:48:29,133
I'm sensitive to tear downs and rebuild

1020
00:48:29,100 --> 00:48:33,767
and I'm sensitive to the embodied carbon and,

1021
00:48:33,834 --> 00:48:34,900
and those tear downs.

1022
00:48:35,734 --> 00:48:38,667
However, it is more expensive sometimes

1023
00:48:38,667 --> 00:48:40,934
to renovate an old building to bring it up

1024
00:48:40,934 --> 00:48:43,000
to modern standards, especially for accessibility.

1025
00:48:44,133 --> 00:48:47,133
Sometimes it is cheaper to tear down and rebuild,

1026
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:49,667
but I, I would rely on the harb

1027
00:48:49,667 --> 00:48:51,033
and another protection so

1028
00:48:51,033 --> 00:48:53,266
that our historic buildings are protected.

1029
00:48:55,166 --> 00:48:59,100
- Susan, - I would just like to add

1030
00:49:00,066 --> 00:49:04,333
also that the term walkability doesn't literally mean

1031
00:49:04,834 --> 00:49:06,000
walking every time.

1032
00:49:06,233 --> 00:49:09,233
It also means public transportation and biking

1033
00:49:10,700 --> 00:49:11,834
and scooters.

1034
00:49:11,834 --> 00:49:13,834
They're not legal, but everyone rides them.

1035
00:49:14,700 --> 00:49:16,533
So I mean, it's, it's other types

1036
00:49:16,533 --> 00:49:19,000
of mobility other than a car.

1037
00:49:19,667 --> 00:49:21,634
So walkability does have many forms.

1038
00:49:22,433 --> 00:49:26,266
- And just, just to confirm for everybody, the, the draft

1039
00:49:26,367 --> 00:49:31,000
as it is right now, the zone where the triplexes

1040
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:34,033
and quads become a a use by right

1041
00:49:34,066 --> 00:49:35,867
with these D restrictions is in R two.

1042
00:49:36,133 --> 00:49:38,934
So as of right now, the triplexes

1043
00:49:38,934 --> 00:49:40,467
and quads are not permitted in R one.

1044
00:49:41,467 --> 00:49:43,266
So we could obviously make, you can make

1045
00:49:43,266 --> 00:49:45,300
that commend recommendation to change that.

1046
00:49:45,300 --> 00:49:47,066
But as of right now, it starts at R two.

1047
00:49:48,634 --> 00:49:49,767
- Anita - Two points.

1048
00:49:50,066 --> 00:49:54,066
The HAR protects houses in these neighborhoods built

1049
00:49:54,100 --> 00:49:55,734
before 1945.

1050
00:49:56,333 --> 00:50:01,000
It would not stop perfectly good houses built in 1955

1051
00:50:01,066 --> 00:50:04,934
or 65 from being torn down and lots combined

1052
00:50:05,033 --> 00:50:07,500
and all sorts of more construction added.

1053
00:50:08,233 --> 00:50:12,700
And I think those houses on the whole are as worthy

1054
00:50:12,700 --> 00:50:14,233
of protection as what's in the harm.

1055
00:50:14,266 --> 00:50:15,934
It's merely a matter of dates.

1056
00:50:16,567 --> 00:50:18,634
Second point is I hear about

1057
00:50:19,233 --> 00:50:21,867
buildings being passed their useful economic life.

1058
00:50:22,467 --> 00:50:25,467
Now that was what the owners of the Glen said

1059
00:50:25,867 --> 00:50:28,100
before it was converted into the hotel.

1060
00:50:28,734 --> 00:50:31,133
And that applies to a whole lot of houses

1061
00:50:32,367 --> 00:50:35,033
that have been converted basically into apartments

1062
00:50:35,133 --> 00:50:37,033
and not very well kept up.

1063
00:50:37,700 --> 00:50:39,300
Now I know a lot about this

1064
00:50:39,300 --> 00:50:41,133
because that's the only reason we were able

1065
00:50:41,133 --> 00:50:42,467
to buy the house we live in.

1066
00:50:42,500 --> 00:50:44,033
It had been run into the ground.

1067
00:50:44,033 --> 00:50:48,066
It was not habitable really though it was inhabited, I think

1068
00:50:48,066 --> 00:50:52,333
by about 12 students that's on the landlords

1069
00:50:52,333 --> 00:50:54,767
who have been taking money outta it and be,

1070
00:50:55,066 --> 00:50:56,767
and everybody said at the time,

1071
00:50:57,433 --> 00:51:00,233
nobody will ever buy those houses and fix them up.

1072
00:51:00,834 --> 00:51:03,033
Well I know of many cases that that's exactly

1073
00:51:03,100 --> 00:51:04,333
what has happened

1074
00:51:05,333 --> 00:51:09,567
and if the landlords do not wish

1075
00:51:09,667 --> 00:51:13,066
to keep those up, then eventually

1076
00:51:13,867 --> 00:51:16,300
COG will stop them renting them and they will sell them.

1077
00:51:16,367 --> 00:51:17,934
And that might be a way actually

1078
00:51:17,934 --> 00:51:19,567
of getting some home ownership into the Borough.

1079
00:51:19,567 --> 00:51:22,133
If we wanna talk about long-term consequences,

1080
00:51:24,033 --> 00:51:26,834
limit the tear downs, see what happens.

1081
00:51:31,133 --> 00:51:32,934
- I'm gonna take my turn to speak now.

1082
00:51:35,100 --> 00:51:37,934
I would like to go back to Dr.

1083
00:51:38,033 --> 00:51:41,467
Gardner's point that if you live within walking distance

1084
00:51:41,734 --> 00:51:45,634
of the university and you,

1085
00:51:46,367 --> 00:51:51,000
and you can have only one car, that it,

1086
00:51:51,066 --> 00:51:54,033
that is a major factor for affordability.

1087
00:51:56,033 --> 00:51:59,100
I live within walking distance of the university.

1088
00:51:59,467 --> 00:52:01,000
My husband works there.

1089
00:52:01,500 --> 00:52:05,066
We have had only one car for the entire time

1090
00:52:05,066 --> 00:52:07,767
that we have owned our home, which is at this point

1091
00:52:08,433 --> 00:52:09,834
about 38 years.

1092
00:52:11,166 --> 00:52:14,634
The amount of money that my family has saved

1093
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:17,133
by having only one car

1094
00:52:18,100 --> 00:52:21,867
we recently calculated is something like half

1095
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:23,066
a million dollars.

1096
00:52:24,834 --> 00:52:28,300
And it certainly has affected the affordability

1097
00:52:28,934 --> 00:52:32,100
of being able to, to maintain my home,

1098
00:52:33,533 --> 00:52:34,834
send my kids to college,

1099
00:52:36,667 --> 00:52:40,533
and all the other kinds of long-term things that

1100
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:47,100
a person not seemingly in need of affordable housing

1101
00:52:48,734 --> 00:52:49,867
has been able to do.

1102
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:58,033
Okay, go ahead.

1103
00:52:59,934 --> 00:53:01,000
- What would increasing,

1104
00:53:03,467 --> 00:53:08,000
increasing the square foot minimum lot area, what would

1105
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:12,934
that do to, would lead to lot consolidation.

1106
00:53:13,934 --> 00:53:17,500
What that also would limit some of these lots that

1107
00:53:18,834 --> 00:53:20,767
are the, the tear downs.

1108
00:53:20,834 --> 00:53:25,000
So putting it at that's just under a quarter of an acre.

1109
00:53:25,233 --> 00:53:26,734
So putting it at a half an acre.

1110
00:53:27,300 --> 00:53:29,000
- Yeah, I mean right now the reason

1111
00:53:29,033 --> 00:53:31,133
that 10,000 square feet was chosen was

1112
00:53:31,133 --> 00:53:32,133
because it's the,

1113
00:53:33,133 --> 00:53:36,100
it's today's minimum lot size for a single family home.

1114
00:53:36,166 --> 00:53:39,266
So most of the lots that were built that were subdivided

1115
00:53:39,266 --> 00:53:41,066
and plotted after the war.

1116
00:53:42,634 --> 00:53:46,767
So it is definitely after 1959, but between 1959

1117
00:53:46,767 --> 00:53:50,066
and 1931, there was a 7,500 foot minimum.

1118
00:53:51,133 --> 00:53:54,567
So there you, you have most of college south,

1119
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:59,233
the southern part of the Highlands, lots of Holmes Foster,

1120
00:53:59,367 --> 00:54:01,500
and then obviously green tree, you know, every,

1121
00:54:01,500 --> 00:54:03,266
everything kind of to the south.

1122
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:07,033
Those, those lots will be at a minimum 75 feet

1123
00:54:07,033 --> 00:54:08,734
and most of them are 10,000 square feet.

1124
00:54:09,100 --> 00:54:13,100
So if you increase that minimum lot size to say 12 or 14

1125
00:54:13,133 --> 00:54:14,867
or 15, you'll just take more

1126
00:54:14,867 --> 00:54:18,233
and more lots out of the possibility of doing a triplex.

1127
00:54:18,233 --> 00:54:21,066
So you'll drive the quads

1128
00:54:21,066 --> 00:54:23,100
and the triplexes to properties

1129
00:54:23,100 --> 00:54:25,233
that are larger lots essentially.

1130
00:54:25,934 --> 00:54:29,033
And you know, we haven't run any analysis on which,

1131
00:54:29,100 --> 00:54:30,266
which lots that would look like.

1132
00:54:30,333 --> 00:54:32,066
We, we can certainly, if

1133
00:54:32,066 --> 00:54:33,033
that was important we could do that.

1134
00:54:33,100 --> 00:54:36,500
But that's why the 10,000 foot minimums in there,

1135
00:54:39,066 --> 00:54:41,033
there's been some folks who've advocated just get rid of it,

1136
00:54:41,033 --> 00:54:43,233
period, which would allow a triplex

1137
00:54:43,233 --> 00:54:45,333
or a quad to be on a 40 foot wide lot.

1138
00:54:46,133 --> 00:54:47,133
But

1139
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:53,567
- I would like to also raise an another point about

1140
00:54:54,500 --> 00:54:56,000
increasing density

1141
00:54:57,667 --> 00:55:00,500
for a very long-term perspective.

1142
00:55:01,667 --> 00:55:05,266
In our area, I'm talking about

1143
00:55:06,934 --> 00:55:08,667
50 to 100 years.

1144
00:55:10,033 --> 00:55:12,533
There is speculation that

1145
00:55:13,634 --> 00:55:17,133
central Pennsylvania will become one of the very

1146
00:55:17,934 --> 00:55:21,734
best places to live in eastern America

1147
00:55:22,500 --> 00:55:24,467
because we will have water

1148
00:55:24,867 --> 00:55:28,433
unless the wind pattern changes, we will have water

1149
00:55:28,433 --> 00:55:32,133
because we get wind coming off of the area

1150
00:55:32,066 --> 00:55:35,367
of the Great Lakes.

1151
00:55:36,066 --> 00:55:40,266
And we also are a hun a thousand feet

1152
00:55:40,367 --> 00:55:43,000
above sea level elevation that will make

1153
00:55:43,867 --> 00:55:47,133
a difference in the ability to survive here.

1154
00:55:49,300 --> 00:55:50,700
Just temperature wise.

1155
00:55:51,367 --> 00:55:55,233
That means that we need to make room

1156
00:55:55,333 --> 00:55:57,066
for more people to come here.

1157
00:55:58,166 --> 00:56:01,166
And I'm talking about the, the much wider area.

1158
00:56:02,066 --> 00:56:06,133
And we also need to be able to protect our farmland

1159
00:56:06,266 --> 00:56:08,233
'cause all those people will still need to eat.

1160
00:56:09,900 --> 00:56:14,066
And I love living in a house that was built

1161
00:56:14,066 --> 00:56:15,700
before 1945.

1162
00:56:17,233 --> 00:56:22,000
I personally don't feel most ha structures

1163
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:24,300
for me built after World War ii.

1164
00:56:24,734 --> 00:56:25,734
I would not miss,

1165
00:56:27,066 --> 00:56:30,934
although other people may feel differently about that,

1166
00:56:31,100 --> 00:56:35,767
therefore I personally would go for the ability to build

1167
00:56:36,367 --> 00:56:38,300
a triplex or a quadplex.

1168
00:56:41,667 --> 00:56:43,500
If there are concerns about

1169
00:56:46,667 --> 00:56:50,667
limiting the ability to do that, then I would focus on

1170
00:56:53,734 --> 00:56:57,166
discussing and defining those limitations rather than

1171
00:56:57,767 --> 00:56:59,467
wholesale outlawing them.

1172
00:57:03,700 --> 00:57:05,233
- Okay. If I, if I could, I mean, I,

1173
00:57:05,367 --> 00:57:07,033
I don't have the ability to call a question,

1174
00:57:07,033 --> 00:57:10,700
but we've got a lot, we've got hours more material

1175
00:57:10,767 --> 00:57:12,033
to go. So if we

1176
00:57:13,066 --> 00:57:16,000
- Okay, Eric

1177
00:57:18,700 --> 00:57:19,700
- And then Zoe.

1178
00:57:19,700 --> 00:57:20,667
We do have Ron online after

1179
00:57:20,667 --> 00:57:21,667
- That.

1180
00:57:21,667 --> 00:57:22,233
Okay.

1181
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:26,100
- Sorry, ed, just wanted to point out to people that

1182
00:57:26,500 --> 00:57:28,066
Greentree is walkable.

1183
00:57:28,734 --> 00:57:31,533
I know a lot of professors that walked from there to campus

1184
00:57:33,266 --> 00:57:34,667
and managed to get through tenure

1185
00:57:34,667 --> 00:57:38,867
because they had that extra two hours of commuting time,

1186
00:57:40,033 --> 00:57:42,333
excuse me, half hour of commuting time each way

1187
00:57:42,734 --> 00:57:44,900
to decompress before they got home

1188
00:57:44,900 --> 00:57:46,100
and started yelling at their wife.

1189
00:57:46,367 --> 00:57:47,367
Thank you.

1190
00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:54,500
- Okay, Ron. And, and please excuse this number.

1191
00:57:54,567 --> 00:57:56,834
I don't know how to turn this thing off. Go ahead.

1192
00:57:59,767 --> 00:58:02,166
We can't hear you. Can we fix that?

1193
00:58:06,367 --> 00:58:07,667
I think you're on mute. Maybe

1194
00:58:14,734 --> 00:58:16,100
- I would request a Roll Call.

1195
00:58:16,100 --> 00:58:17,066
Vote on my motion.

1196
00:58:18,266 --> 00:58:21,433
- Okay. Re please restate the motion,

1197
00:58:24,667 --> 00:58:26,033
- Take out the triplex

1198
00:58:26,033 --> 00:58:30,033
and quadplex Zoning ability in the R two district.

1199
00:58:33,100 --> 00:58:35,634
- Okay. - Anita, are you seconding again?

1200
00:58:36,166 --> 00:58:38,634
- Second. - Anita, you second right. Okay.

1201
00:58:38,834 --> 00:58:42,367
- Seconded by Anita. Okay.

1202
00:58:42,367 --> 00:58:44,734
Calling the question and,

1203
00:58:44,934 --> 00:58:47,000
and requested with a Roll Call vote.

1204
00:58:48,467 --> 00:58:50,133
- Yeah, I'll, I can handle that. Okay.

1205
00:58:50,500 --> 00:58:53,834
So let's start with in the room. Tony. Tony,

1206
00:58:56,900 --> 00:58:57,900
- Keep, keep.

1207
00:58:58,033 --> 00:59:01,100
- So that's a, that's a no to the motion. No to the motion.

1208
00:59:01,100 --> 00:59:02,100
Okay. Ron Madrid.

1209
00:59:04,467 --> 00:59:09,033
- Yes. - Anita Genger. Yes. Zoe. A bonis?

1210
00:59:09,266 --> 00:59:11,100
- No, - Ker. Schulman.

1211
00:59:14,033 --> 00:59:15,133
Gotta gotta make a vote.

1212
00:59:21,033 --> 00:59:22,500
We will come back to you. Dan.

1213
00:59:25,233 --> 00:59:25,500
- No,

1214
00:59:30,900 --> 00:59:31,900
- Back, back to you.

1215
00:59:31,900 --> 00:59:32,634
Curtis.

1216
00:59:39,033 --> 00:59:40,767
- I guess that would be, - Curtis,

1217
00:59:40,934 --> 00:59:42,100
can you move closer to the microphone?

1218
00:59:42,900 --> 00:59:45,300
Yeah. So let me ask, turn it on too. Is is the that helpful?

1219
00:59:45,333 --> 00:59:49,367
Yeah. So is the issue about the deed restriction?

1220
00:59:49,867 --> 00:59:53,000
So right now it's about whether you wanna include triplexes

1221
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:54,667
or quads, the ability to do them in the Ordinance.

1222
00:59:54,667 --> 00:59:56,500
We could discuss the deed restriction separately.

1223
00:59:56,533 --> 00:59:58,300
- Oh, I thought that section one was all one.

1224
01:00:00,066 --> 01:00:04,500
- The motion was, Ron's motion was regarding

1225
01:00:06,100 --> 01:00:08,567
quad versus triple and triplex

1226
01:00:09,166 --> 01:00:11,767
- Was to keep triplexes and quads in the Ordinance.

1227
01:00:12,266 --> 01:00:14,133
Obviously you could discuss d restriction

1228
01:00:14,133 --> 01:00:15,133
as a sec, as a separate item.

1229
01:00:16,300 --> 01:00:20,166
- I, I support the triplexes and quads. In in what?

1230
01:00:20,166 --> 01:00:22,734
The, in the R one and R two. I think it's

1231
01:00:22,734 --> 01:00:23,734
- Fine.

1232
01:00:23,734 --> 01:00:25,100
So that is a no vote for Ron's motion

1233
01:00:26,734 --> 01:00:28,333
- Or for Curtis? No, for Curtis.

1234
01:00:28,734 --> 01:00:32,133
- Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

1235
01:00:32,867 --> 01:00:36,634
And I think that means that the motion fails.

1236
01:00:37,300 --> 01:00:41,133
Do we want a separate vote on deed restriction?

1237
01:00:43,066 --> 01:00:44,500
- Yeah, I mean, we haven't debated that.

1238
01:00:44,867 --> 01:00:48,834
So I, I can tell you from the work that we did

1239
01:00:48,834 --> 01:00:52,500
with council last year, that the deed restriction

1240
01:00:52,634 --> 01:00:54,300
to student occupancy, short-term rental seemed

1241
01:00:54,300 --> 01:00:55,667
to be a, a high priority item.

1242
01:00:57,500 --> 01:01:01,133
And I, I think staff at least perceived that

1243
01:01:02,033 --> 01:01:04,233
there was only support for doing triplexes

1244
01:01:04,233 --> 01:01:07,934
and quads if the deed restrictions were in place, that

1245
01:01:08,734 --> 01:01:12,133
allowing triplexes and quads to be permitted

1246
01:01:12,133 --> 01:01:14,734
by right without a deed restriction would then lead

1247
01:01:14,734 --> 01:01:16,333
to additional student housing in the neighborhood.

1248
01:01:16,467 --> 01:01:19,634
And that seemed to not be the priority for, for council.

1249
01:01:19,634 --> 01:01:21,433
So I just wanna put that context out there.

1250
01:01:22,066 --> 01:01:23,734
That's why the deed restrictions are in there.

1251
01:01:23,934 --> 01:01:25,100
I will agree with a lot of the comments

1252
01:01:25,100 --> 01:01:26,000
that have been made about,

1253
01:01:26,133 --> 01:01:27,567
there'll be enforcement challenges.

1254
01:01:28,500 --> 01:01:30,000
We, I'm sure we'll have

1255
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:32,166
to discuss staffing at some point depending

1256
01:01:32,166 --> 01:01:33,233
on how many of these get built.

1257
01:01:34,066 --> 01:01:35,634
I'm being very transparent about that.

1258
01:01:36,500 --> 01:01:40,367
But as far as the, the, that's the reason

1259
01:01:40,367 --> 01:01:42,166
that the restriction is in there to Mr.

1260
01:01:44,233 --> 01:01:47,834
Stone's comments, whether that would be challenged in court,

1261
01:01:47,834 --> 01:01:50,333
whether we would succeed in defending it or not.

1262
01:01:50,567 --> 01:01:51,634
I can't crystal ball that.

1263
01:01:51,734 --> 01:01:53,467
So I don't know whether this would be legal or not,

1264
01:01:54,033 --> 01:01:56,333
but the fact that you'd be accepting the deed restriction in

1265
01:01:56,333 --> 01:01:57,367
order to build the triplex

1266
01:01:57,367 --> 01:01:59,367
or quad, we would argue that you,

1267
01:01:59,500 --> 01:02:02,266
you're accepting a incentive to do so.

1268
01:02:02,467 --> 01:02:05,433
And I think Terry thinks it's supportive at this point from

1269
01:02:05,500 --> 01:02:06,700
a, a legal standpoint.

1270
01:02:06,700 --> 01:02:09,100
But again, we wouldn't know until we were challenged. So,

1271
01:02:12,300 --> 01:02:13,300
- Okay.

1272
01:02:15,133 --> 01:02:16,333
I think then we go on.

1273
01:02:17,734 --> 01:02:19,000
- Yeah, unless we want to have,

1274
01:02:19,266 --> 01:02:21,000
unless someone would like to make a motion about

1275
01:02:21,066 --> 01:02:22,367
removing the de restrictions.

1276
01:02:25,233 --> 01:02:28,467
- Not seeing that. Let's go on.

1277
01:02:28,533 --> 01:02:30,500
- Okay. All right.

1278
01:02:30,500 --> 01:02:35,033
So one of the themes that's been going on has been a

1279
01:02:36,133 --> 01:02:40,500
increase in more permitted uses that are not residential

1280
01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:44,000
in R two R three Zoning districts.

1281
01:02:44,000 --> 01:02:47,367
So this is a first stab at those.

1282
01:02:48,133 --> 01:02:50,467
And before anybody makes jokes about fortune telling

1283
01:02:50,467 --> 01:02:55,266
establishments, the, the, the reason for staff sort

1284
01:02:55,266 --> 01:02:58,367
of suggesting that these could now be permitted is

1285
01:02:58,367 --> 01:03:00,066
because there are things that could happen in the house

1286
01:03:00,100 --> 01:03:01,934
with minimal impact.

1287
01:03:02,000 --> 01:03:05,000
So if you wanna do a tarot card reading, it doesn't seem

1288
01:03:05,000 --> 01:03:06,467
to be that intensive to have somebody come

1289
01:03:06,467 --> 01:03:07,500
over and do a tarot card reading.

1290
01:03:07,500 --> 01:03:11,100
So that, that's just the rationale as far as why we,

1291
01:03:11,100 --> 01:03:13,734
you know, staff felt that these were all uses that were

1292
01:03:14,567 --> 01:03:15,734
really low impact

1293
01:03:16,567 --> 01:03:19,066
and so that we could permit those, something

1294
01:03:19,066 --> 01:03:20,567
that people could be doing in their homes.

1295
01:03:22,100 --> 01:03:26,133
We also had some discussion about more home occupation

1296
01:03:26,233 --> 01:03:27,533
and accessory use structures.

1297
01:03:28,266 --> 01:03:30,333
So right now there's, in the draft,

1298
01:03:30,333 --> 01:03:33,834
there's a clause about home occupation not being permitted

1299
01:03:33,834 --> 01:03:35,867
in single family uses

1300
01:03:36,033 --> 01:03:38,133
that have already have an apartment or short term rental.

1301
01:03:39,100 --> 01:03:41,934
I think we've heard comments about just removing that,

1302
01:03:41,934 --> 01:03:46,300
like why, and don't we wanna allow more uses in the house?

1303
01:03:46,867 --> 01:03:49,767
And also getting rid of the only one home occupation.

1304
01:03:49,767 --> 01:03:52,066
So if there's, you know, two that makes sense,

1305
01:03:52,834 --> 01:03:53,867
why would we prohibit that?

1306
01:03:54,634 --> 01:03:57,634
And also the onsite service or consultation with customers

1307
01:03:57,634 --> 01:03:58,634
or clients is prohibited.

1308
01:03:58,634 --> 01:04:00,266
We'd recommend removing that as well.

1309
01:04:00,266 --> 01:04:01,367
That seems to be in line

1310
01:04:01,367 --> 01:04:02,767
with a lot of the comments that we've heard.

1311
01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:06,100
So just wanted to get a sense from planning commission,

1312
01:04:06,100 --> 01:04:07,634
is this something you would recommend, you know,

1313
01:04:07,634 --> 01:04:08,767
that you would recommend in terms

1314
01:04:08,767 --> 01:04:10,033
of being per more permissive

1315
01:04:10,266 --> 01:04:11,767
or do you like some of these standards?

1316
01:04:18,734 --> 01:04:21,367
- Well, ed knows that I've made a lot of these comments.

1317
01:04:21,834 --> 01:04:22,934
- A lot of this is directly from Anita,

1318
01:04:24,700 --> 01:04:27,133
- Partly because partly it addresses

1319
01:04:27,533 --> 01:04:31,000
John Gardner's comments, but partly it addresses reality.

1320
01:04:31,100 --> 01:04:35,133
There have always been very quietly in my neighborhood.

1321
01:04:35,433 --> 01:04:37,634
I know everything from a barber shop

1322
01:04:37,834 --> 01:04:42,100
to a clothing alteration to a lawyer I know

1323
01:04:42,100 --> 01:04:44,667
of a psychiatrist in a different neighborhood.

1324
01:04:45,300 --> 01:04:48,100
And then you add in computer businesses.

1325
01:04:49,266 --> 01:04:51,667
And the rather, a lot

1326
01:04:51,667 --> 01:04:54,166
of this I think is based on the archaic assumption

1327
01:04:55,133 --> 01:04:58,734
that someone who is at home tending to children or

1328
01:04:59,433 --> 01:05:03,100
otherwise somebody who needs help are not,

1329
01:05:03,834 --> 01:05:07,066
are supported by a wage owner with a job outside the house.

1330
01:05:07,867 --> 01:05:11,734
And that's not true, never was with computers.

1331
01:05:11,734 --> 01:05:12,934
Everything has changed

1332
01:05:13,033 --> 01:05:15,467
and these businesses that I know of that have been

1333
01:05:15,467 --> 01:05:18,066
around in my neighborhood did no harm to anybody

1334
01:05:18,133 --> 01:05:20,100
and were quite popular with the neighbors.

1335
01:05:20,500 --> 01:05:24,100
Now the only thing I don't see there, at a quick glance,

1336
01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:27,033
I do know of a lawyer

1337
01:05:27,166 --> 01:05:31,000
who had a very small discreet non lighted sign about

1338
01:05:31,433 --> 01:05:33,033
this big ought to be that be two

1339
01:05:33,033 --> 01:05:35,634
and a half by 18 inches maybe.

1340
01:05:36,033 --> 01:05:38,066
And I don't see any harm in that either.

1341
01:05:38,133 --> 01:05:39,734
One sign per building maybe,

1342
01:05:40,266 --> 01:05:43,266
but no limit on how many occupations are going on.

1343
01:05:43,367 --> 01:05:46,634
It would also help either renters

1344
01:05:46,700 --> 01:05:49,233
or homeowners paying a mortgage if these sorts

1345
01:05:49,233 --> 01:05:50,934
of small businesses could be included.

1346
01:05:51,166 --> 01:05:53,767
Now, I'm not too sure about the corner grocery store

1347
01:05:53,867 --> 01:05:56,233
by the way, because that's a lot more traffic.

1348
01:05:57,000 --> 01:06:01,934
And the municipal planning code basically says that

1349
01:06:03,233 --> 01:06:06,300
small businesses in neighborhoods should not be a

1350
01:06:06,300 --> 01:06:07,467
problem to the neighbors.

1351
01:06:08,100 --> 01:06:09,533
So that's the only issue there.

1352
01:06:11,634 --> 01:06:15,700
- To be clear, the business has to be operated by the owner

1353
01:06:15,700 --> 01:06:17,533
of the house or they could lease out

1354
01:06:18,867 --> 01:06:20,533
- No, I would say by the owner of the house

1355
01:06:20,700 --> 01:06:24,634
or a, a tenant perhaps as in a rental,

1356
01:06:24,767 --> 01:06:27,066
in an attached unit or some sort.

1357
01:06:27,233 --> 01:06:29,567
- So the person living there has to be occupying.

1358
01:06:29,667 --> 01:06:32,533
You can't 'cause otherwise, if you don't limit right,

1359
01:06:32,700 --> 01:06:33,834
how many businesses there are

1360
01:06:33,834 --> 01:06:36,433
and it isn't clearly stipulated, that has to be the resident

1361
01:06:36,433 --> 01:06:38,900
of that space, then it can create a

1362
01:06:38,900 --> 01:06:40,100
weird and probably undesirable

1363
01:06:40,634 --> 01:06:41,634
- Situation.

1364
01:06:41,634 --> 01:06:42,033
Yeah. Not what we want.

1365
01:06:43,266 --> 01:06:45,367
I would say to limit the number of employees

1366
01:06:45,367 --> 01:06:47,133
because part of the issue is traffic

1367
01:06:48,066 --> 01:06:50,734
and not if there is an attached apartment,

1368
01:06:51,033 --> 01:06:52,667
say no home businesses either,

1369
01:06:53,133 --> 01:06:55,767
because both of those are really the same thing.

1370
01:06:58,667 --> 01:07:01,367
- Yeah. Right now the language has,

1371
01:07:01,367 --> 01:07:03,100
the business shall employ one additional

1372
01:07:03,867 --> 01:07:04,567
employee other than a family

1373
01:07:04,634 --> 01:07:06,033
member residing in the dwelling.

1374
01:07:06,033 --> 01:07:09,367
So there are some limits on employees coming in.

1375
01:07:09,767 --> 01:07:12,834
I mean we had a situation in the Highlands that took a lot

1376
01:07:12,834 --> 01:07:15,266
of Zoning enforcement and a lot of time there was a gym

1377
01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:17,266
that was illegally operating

1378
01:07:18,033 --> 01:07:22,367
and that the, the number of, the number of folks

1379
01:07:22,367 --> 01:07:24,066
who were working there was actually one of the big

1380
01:07:25,066 --> 01:07:26,000
sticking points in terms

1381
01:07:26,000 --> 01:07:27,133
of how we were able to shut it down.

1382
01:07:27,500 --> 01:07:28,500
So

1383
01:07:34,033 --> 01:07:37,166
- I am in favor of promoting,

1384
01:07:38,433 --> 01:07:41,000
allowing home businesses not only for all the reasons

1385
01:07:41,000 --> 01:07:42,100
that Anita named,

1386
01:07:43,500 --> 01:07:45,333
but both

1387
01:07:45,433 --> 01:07:49,533
of my young adult children are remote workers.

1388
01:07:51,100 --> 01:07:55,133
And I would hate for remote working to become illegal.

1389
01:07:56,900 --> 01:07:59,033
It would make a lot of trouble.

1390
01:08:01,634 --> 01:08:03,567
- I'm pretty sure the remote working isn't.

1391
01:08:03,567 --> 01:08:05,433
It's for operating the business.

1392
01:08:05,467 --> 01:08:08,300
So you can work from home at any point this would be

1393
01:08:08,300 --> 01:08:10,767
operating a business out of the space.

1394
01:08:10,834 --> 01:08:11,834
Correct.

1395
01:08:13,834 --> 01:08:15,867
- Okay. - Yeah. With clients coming

1396
01:08:15,934 --> 01:08:17,100
to the house, et cetera.

1397
01:08:17,433 --> 01:08:20,734
And staff. I mean, so the sense I'm getting is

1398
01:08:20,734 --> 01:08:22,066
that yes, okay.

1399
01:08:22,100 --> 01:08:23,567
Be more permissive. We'd like

1400
01:08:23,567 --> 01:08:26,333
to do some more work on fine tuning exactly what uses,

1401
01:08:27,133 --> 01:08:28,266
there's a live work section

1402
01:08:28,367 --> 01:08:30,100
that right now we are working at,

1403
01:08:30,767 --> 01:08:33,233
based on the comments we've had from Susan is looking at

1404
01:08:33,333 --> 01:08:35,066
expanding that, but also just making sure

1405
01:08:35,066 --> 01:08:38,300
that we're not opening up too many commercial uses in R two

1406
01:08:38,433 --> 01:08:40,700
for instance, or low density residential districts.

1407
01:08:40,700 --> 01:08:42,567
So there's still some fine tuning I think to do on it.

1408
01:08:42,700 --> 01:08:45,033
But if, I mean the sense I'm getting is

1409
01:08:45,033 --> 01:08:46,934
that there's a willingness to be more permissive.

1410
01:08:46,934 --> 01:08:48,467
Just we don't have all the final details yet.

1411
01:08:48,500 --> 01:08:51,333
Is that, is that a fair read? Everybody.

1412
01:08:51,667 --> 01:08:52,634
- Okay. Okay.

1413
01:08:54,900 --> 01:08:57,066
Anyone on the Z rack?

1414
01:08:59,767 --> 01:09:00,767
Susan?

1415
01:09:02,266 --> 01:09:05,634
- So just so we understand this is not,

1416
01:09:06,000 --> 01:09:07,934
the discussion we just had is not final.

1417
01:09:08,333 --> 01:09:09,367
This is going to come back.

1418
01:09:09,700 --> 01:09:13,000
I agreed with what you said about it needs to be

1419
01:09:13,667 --> 01:09:16,700
the occupant or it could just be it turns into a commercial

1420
01:09:16,934 --> 01:09:18,467
building that makes perfectly good sense,

1421
01:09:18,900 --> 01:09:23,867
but I don't, I I think we could take out six, seven, and 11.

1422
01:09:24,834 --> 01:09:25,834
- Honestly take out what please.

1423
01:09:26,266 --> 01:09:28,133
- Six, seven, and 11. - Okay.

1424
01:09:28,934 --> 01:09:30,867
- Yeah. That's essential what we're asking this like,

1425
01:09:30,867 --> 01:09:32,567
that seems to be the crux of it.

1426
01:09:38,834 --> 01:09:39,834
Okay.

1427
01:09:40,133 --> 01:09:41,133
- Oh, Eric Belton.

1428
01:09:48,000 --> 01:09:50,033
- Yeah. Question about number eight.

1429
01:09:50,734 --> 01:09:52,667
Why should a home business be required

1430
01:09:53,100 --> 01:09:55,033
to employ in a additional

1431
01:09:55,300 --> 01:09:56,300
- Employee?

1432
01:09:56,300 --> 01:09:56,767
No, we're gonna change that. I I think

1433
01:09:56,834 --> 01:09:59,266
that they just mis Yeah, they miswrote it, it should,

1434
01:09:59,333 --> 01:10:01,000
it it may, it makes it sound like you

1435
01:10:01,000 --> 01:10:02,133
have to have an employee.

1436
01:10:02,133 --> 01:10:04,433
So Yeah. We'll, sorry.

1437
01:10:04,433 --> 01:10:06,867
We, we, we had already fixed that in our head.

1438
01:10:06,867 --> 01:10:08,233
We just had, yeah, sorry.

1439
01:10:11,567 --> 01:10:13,533
- Okay. - Alright.

1440
01:10:13,567 --> 01:10:16,634
So next thing then is this neighborhood commercial district,

1441
01:10:16,634 --> 01:10:19,367
which is a minimum lot width of 25 feet.

1442
01:10:20,500 --> 01:10:22,767
There is a maximum lot coverage

1443
01:10:22,767 --> 01:10:24,700
of 65 max height is three stories.

1444
01:10:25,300 --> 01:10:27,767
This is really aimed at getting a mixed,

1445
01:10:27,900 --> 01:10:29,133
small mixed use building

1446
01:10:30,467 --> 01:10:32,533
that can sort of fit into the neighborhood.

1447
01:10:32,734 --> 01:10:34,500
It, it would be something along the lines of

1448
01:10:34,500 --> 01:10:36,166
what Dr. Garner had talked about as far

1449
01:10:36,166 --> 01:10:39,900
as maybe a corner lot recognizing that.

1450
01:10:40,166 --> 01:10:43,000
But again, the floor plate can't exceed 30,000 square feet.

1451
01:10:43,634 --> 01:10:48,033
So this gives us a fix for two

1452
01:10:48,500 --> 01:10:50,533
uses that I think are long cherished in the

1453
01:10:50,533 --> 01:10:52,033
neighborhood or in the community.

1454
01:10:53,000 --> 01:10:57,367
The Exxon on North Atherton and Graham's at Allen

1455
01:10:57,500 --> 01:10:59,266
and Old Burg.

1456
01:10:59,300 --> 01:11:02,500
So this is, this is two uses that would,

1457
01:11:03,100 --> 01:11:05,734
we can now make essentially permitted by right?

1458
01:11:06,133 --> 01:11:07,266
By using this network commercial.

1459
01:11:08,033 --> 01:11:10,700
We don't have any other suggestions for other locations yet.

1460
01:11:11,433 --> 01:11:13,033
We, we first just wanna check with,

1461
01:11:13,066 --> 01:11:14,734
with PC if you thought this was appropriate.

1462
01:11:15,100 --> 01:11:19,066
Secondly, we're we're, we're all ears for other concepts for

1463
01:11:19,066 --> 01:11:21,467
where this use or where the zone could land.

1464
01:11:21,634 --> 01:11:25,233
So if you wanna provide any comments to us

1465
01:11:25,300 --> 01:11:27,100
outside the meeting, we're happy to take them.

1466
01:11:27,100 --> 01:11:28,033
We, we, we just wanted

1467
01:11:28,033 --> 01:11:29,867
to flag it something we're wrestling with.

1468
01:11:30,266 --> 01:11:32,233
And are you guys okay with the,

1469
01:11:32,467 --> 01:11:34,367
those two locations at this point?

1470
01:11:35,133 --> 01:11:37,867
- I have a query. I thought

1471
01:11:38,033 --> 01:11:40,233
that we cannot do spot Zoning

1472
01:11:40,567 --> 01:11:43,500
for an individual lot an individual business.

1473
01:11:43,567 --> 01:11:45,500
- Yeah. That that's all not either hold

1474
01:11:45,500 --> 01:11:46,500
or as far as if it's something.

1475
01:11:46,934 --> 01:11:51,300
So spot Zoning is when you have something that is,

1476
01:11:52,100 --> 01:11:54,700
well actually there's like eight definitions of spot Sony.

1477
01:11:54,700 --> 01:11:56,867
It depends on what people conceive of it is.

1478
01:11:57,133 --> 01:11:59,467
The rationale behind this is, is

1479
01:11:59,467 --> 01:12:01,634
that this is a zone specifically intended

1480
01:12:01,834 --> 01:12:04,500
to be small scale commercial in a neighborhood.

1481
01:12:05,000 --> 01:12:08,000
And it's, it doesn't have to be, you know, it's not one

1482
01:12:08,000 --> 01:12:10,066
of the things where you need to have a large zone for it.

1483
01:12:10,133 --> 01:12:13,066
It's specifically tailored to be these individual kind

1484
01:12:13,066 --> 01:12:15,567
of corner lots or small limited areas.

1485
01:12:15,700 --> 01:12:19,934
So I, I think the logic is sound if somebody were to say,

1486
01:12:20,033 --> 01:12:22,333
I want to create this in the, you know, on the middle

1487
01:12:22,333 --> 01:12:26,100
of McCormick, that you can make an argument that, that

1488
01:12:26,100 --> 01:12:27,500
that could be spot Zoning.

1489
01:12:27,500 --> 01:12:29,834
But again, the courts are all over the map when it comes to

1490
01:12:29,834 --> 01:12:31,066
what exactly is spot Zoning

1491
01:12:31,333 --> 01:12:35,033
and most legal cases that claim spot Zoning don't survive.

1492
01:12:37,066 --> 01:12:41,100
- Okay. - The fresh

1493
01:12:41,100 --> 01:12:43,233
and fill, isn't that also neighborhood

1494
01:12:43,233 --> 01:12:44,266
commercial? Could be.

1495
01:12:45,100 --> 01:12:46,266
- Actually we've talked about that. So it's a corner

1496
01:12:46,333 --> 01:12:49,734
- Lot commercial - With makes perfect sense.

1497
01:12:49,734 --> 01:12:51,000
Yeah, we, we actually looked at that too.

1498
01:12:51,100 --> 01:12:53,033
So we, those are the kinds of

1499
01:12:53,567 --> 01:12:55,100
suggestions we'd love to, to get.

1500
01:12:55,367 --> 01:12:57,300
But yeah, I think the freshman field makes a lot of sense.

1501
01:12:59,166 --> 01:13:03,834
- Okay. I further discussion.

1502
01:13:06,066 --> 01:13:07,066
Let's go on.

1503
01:13:07,900 --> 01:13:09,567
- Okay. Fraternities, super fun.

1504
01:13:11,000 --> 01:13:14,734
This is a, we're being sort of, we've been wrestling

1505
01:13:14,734 --> 01:13:16,333
with the feedback that we've been getting

1506
01:13:16,367 --> 01:13:19,000
and also trying to be more clear.

1507
01:13:19,934 --> 01:13:21,133
I think many folks know that the,

1508
01:13:22,634 --> 01:13:25,066
the fraternity system in State College

1509
01:13:25,000 --> 01:13:27,066
and at Penn State is changing.

1510
01:13:28,233 --> 01:13:31,734
You've had a growth in independent fraternities.

1511
01:13:31,734 --> 01:13:33,333
Those are fraternities that no longer have,

1512
01:13:33,867 --> 01:13:35,066
they've walked away from Penn State.

1513
01:13:35,066 --> 01:13:36,233
They're no longer recognized.

1514
01:13:36,233 --> 01:13:37,367
They don't want to be recognized.

1515
01:13:37,367 --> 01:13:40,700
They've created their own independent IFC.

1516
01:13:41,367 --> 01:13:45,066
And so what we're proposing in the draft is

1517
01:13:45,066 --> 01:13:48,033
that we are very explicit that they need to have

1518
01:13:48,467 --> 01:13:50,700
national recognition if they do not have

1519
01:13:50,734 --> 01:13:51,867
Penn State recognition.

1520
01:13:51,934 --> 01:13:55,233
So that's what item number one is, is that,

1521
01:13:55,233 --> 01:13:58,066
and we need written confirmation from their national entity

1522
01:13:58,066 --> 01:13:59,934
that they're chartered and,

1523
01:14:00,634 --> 01:14:02,000
and they're recognized as a chapter

1524
01:14:02,000 --> 01:14:03,033
of the national organization.

1525
01:14:03,734 --> 01:14:06,100
We're in the process right now of, of working

1526
01:14:06,133 --> 01:14:08,867
with the eight independent fraternities to get

1527
01:14:08,867 --> 01:14:10,133
that national recognition.

1528
01:14:11,066 --> 01:14:13,066
I wouldn't be surprised if we end up in court on it,

1529
01:14:13,467 --> 01:14:16,100
but at this point, you know, we're trying to get that,

1530
01:14:16,433 --> 01:14:19,000
that essentially what's in this Sony Ordinance right now

1531
01:14:19,000 --> 01:14:22,066
or that's how we're approaching it at the moment to try

1532
01:14:22,066 --> 01:14:23,333
to get that national recognition.

1533
01:14:24,367 --> 01:14:28,867
Right now in the Ordinance, currently you need a major,

1534
01:14:28,934 --> 01:14:32,266
you need 50% of the members of the, the folks

1535
01:14:32,266 --> 01:14:34,100
who were residing in the fraternity, being members of

1536
01:14:34,100 --> 01:14:37,033
that fraternity staff is recommending going to 60.

1537
01:14:37,133 --> 01:14:39,300
We've had some comments from the public about going all the

1538
01:14:39,300 --> 01:14:40,934
way to a hundred percent requirement.

1539
01:14:41,767 --> 01:14:43,834
I I, I think that would certainly be challenged

1540
01:14:43,867 --> 01:14:45,066
by some of the fraternities.

1541
01:14:45,500 --> 01:14:46,634
What the perfect number is.

1542
01:14:46,767 --> 01:14:49,533
I don't know, but we started at 60

1543
01:14:49,700 --> 01:14:51,033
and of course if you'd want to increase

1544
01:14:51,033 --> 01:14:53,100
that percentage, we can certainly do that.

1545
01:14:53,900 --> 01:14:56,000
But we'd like to get your recommendation on it.

1546
01:14:56,233 --> 01:14:58,533
We've also been looking at, right now in the draft,

1547
01:14:58,533 --> 01:15:00,634
these are the uses that are permitted

1548
01:15:00,634 --> 01:15:03,266
for converting pre-existing non-conforming fraternities.

1549
01:15:03,266 --> 01:15:05,767
This goes back to 1971.

1550
01:15:06,000 --> 01:15:08,033
I think that the sixth section was first put in.

1551
01:15:08,467 --> 01:15:11,266
So we've been looking at, first of all, we'd like

1552
01:15:11,266 --> 01:15:13,266
to recommend just removing fraternities

1553
01:15:13,266 --> 01:15:15,100
as a permitted use in the R three district.

1554
01:15:15,133 --> 01:15:16,266
They currently are permitted,

1555
01:15:17,100 --> 01:15:18,767
especially if we end up looking at

1556
01:15:18,767 --> 01:15:20,100
expanding the R three district.

1557
01:15:20,533 --> 01:15:21,533
We just think fraternities need

1558
01:15:21,533 --> 01:15:22,734
to be removed as a permitted use.

1559
01:15:23,934 --> 01:15:26,133
Secondly, we're recommending going up to 60%.

1560
01:15:27,033 --> 01:15:28,033
Again, if PC wanted

1561
01:15:28,033 --> 01:15:30,100
to recommend a higher percentage, we can certainly do that.

1562
01:15:30,266 --> 01:15:32,567
I just don't know at what point does it cross over line

1563
01:15:32,567 --> 01:15:34,033
that we're gonna be in, you know,

1564
01:15:34,033 --> 01:15:36,066
in in we're gonna get challenged legally.

1565
01:15:36,734 --> 01:15:40,133
And then finally is the acceptable conversions

1566
01:15:40,166 --> 01:15:43,066
for preexisting nonconformities staff's been working at

1567
01:15:43,133 --> 01:15:46,066
adding some additional uses to try to, you know,

1568
01:15:46,033 --> 01:15:48,100
find other ways to reuse those properties.

1569
01:15:48,634 --> 01:15:50,934
So we're recommending that on to the right,

1570
01:15:50,934 --> 01:15:53,300
there's potential additional uses that could get added,

1571
01:15:53,433 --> 01:15:55,233
like personal care homes for adults,

1572
01:15:56,133 --> 01:15:57,834
vocational trade school conference

1573
01:15:57,834 --> 01:16:01,300
or training center art, music dance or martial arts studio

1574
01:16:01,700 --> 01:16:03,333
or school art gallery

1575
01:16:04,300 --> 01:16:06,033
catering establishment or commercial kitchen.

1576
01:16:06,100 --> 01:16:08,266
We, we actually, taproot has been trying to find a place

1577
01:16:08,266 --> 01:16:12,734
to do a commercial kitchen in, in the Borough for years

1578
01:16:13,734 --> 01:16:15,233
and it also hotel or motel.

1579
01:16:15,634 --> 01:16:17,033
So those are uses that we've come up with

1580
01:16:17,133 --> 01:16:19,066
as might make sense to add.

1581
01:16:19,100 --> 01:16:23,333
As again, these would be special exception going

1582
01:16:23,333 --> 01:16:25,500
through Zoning hearing board of a converted use.

1583
01:16:25,500 --> 01:16:28,467
Right now the only fraternity that's been converted

1584
01:16:28,467 --> 01:16:33,066
to a non fraternity use is the eye doctor on fraternity is

1585
01:16:33,066 --> 01:16:36,066
that Locust Lane and I think Fairmount.

1586
01:16:36,066 --> 01:16:39,100
Yeah. So, so that's the, that's the only one

1587
01:16:39,133 --> 01:16:40,266
that's been converted since

1588
01:16:40,367 --> 01:16:42,300
that section was included in seventies.

1589
01:16:43,467 --> 01:16:46,033
So that's just like, to get your feedback.

1590
01:16:46,433 --> 01:16:49,567
Do you like those, those changes? Do those uses make sense?

1591
01:16:50,567 --> 01:16:53,333
And if 60% is too low, what,

1592
01:16:53,567 --> 01:16:55,634
what would be an increased number that you'd like to get to?

1593
01:16:57,166 --> 01:16:59,533
- Alex? - Yeah, Alex

1594
01:17:01,100 --> 01:17:03,000
- Is, are you - On Alex Hanian?

1595
01:17:03,133 --> 01:17:05,000
I just had a question for clarification.

1596
01:17:05,000 --> 01:17:10,066
I think to direct directed to you Ed, with some

1597
01:17:10,066 --> 01:17:14,233
of these new rules, for example, the fraternity having

1598
01:17:14,233 --> 01:17:15,567
to present a charter or,

1599
01:17:15,867 --> 01:17:19,533
or you know, some evidence that they recognized, how would

1600
01:17:19,533 --> 01:17:21,333
that apply to existing fraternities?

1601
01:17:21,333 --> 01:17:24,867
Because they're already grandfathered, right? Yep.

1602
01:17:24,867 --> 01:17:27,834
So, so you know, we're considering these things.

1603
01:17:27,934 --> 01:17:29,367
Are they going to be retroactive

1604
01:17:29,734 --> 01:17:32,467
or basically if it's a fraternity right now,

1605
01:17:33,333 --> 01:17:35,934
the the thinking is that they'll be able to continue whether

1606
01:17:35,934 --> 01:17:39,033
or not recognized whether or not they have 60% members.

1607
01:17:39,066 --> 01:17:42,367
Because, because of the previous operating history, the

1608
01:17:42,367 --> 01:17:44,533
- Pre, the preexisting nonconformities

1609
01:17:44,634 --> 01:17:45,734
is for a fraternity use.

1610
01:17:46,367 --> 01:17:49,300
And so those properties, remember that in R two, which

1611
01:17:49,300 --> 01:17:51,033
where most of the fraternities are located,

1612
01:17:51,500 --> 01:17:54,066
fraternity use is not permitted today it

1613
01:17:54,066 --> 01:17:55,100
has been permitted in decades.

1614
01:17:56,100 --> 01:17:59,066
So all of those properties are preexisting nonconformities

1615
01:17:59,000 --> 01:18:00,100
as a fraternity use.

1616
01:18:00,333 --> 01:18:03,133
What we're trying to get at here is what is the definition

1617
01:18:03,133 --> 01:18:04,734
of a fraternity use.

1618
01:18:05,367 --> 01:18:07,066
And so what we're saying is you have

1619
01:18:07,066 --> 01:18:10,033
to be a Greek letter chartered entity, either recognized

1620
01:18:10,033 --> 01:18:12,133
by the university or recognized by your national charter.

1621
01:18:12,467 --> 01:18:14,734
If you're not, then you're not a fraternity use.

1622
01:18:15,266 --> 01:18:18,133
And then it becomes a matter of are we legally able

1623
01:18:18,233 --> 01:18:20,734
to pull the permit on the occupancy

1624
01:18:20,900 --> 01:18:22,133
for the, for the fraternity?

1625
01:18:22,133 --> 01:18:23,367
Because it's no, for the building

1626
01:18:23,367 --> 01:18:24,867
because it's no longer fraternity use.

1627
01:18:24,900 --> 01:18:26,367
It's essentially operating as a rooming house,

1628
01:18:26,367 --> 01:18:27,834
which is also illegal NR two.

1629
01:18:28,567 --> 01:18:32,100
So you may have a situation where there is a fraternity

1630
01:18:32,100 --> 01:18:33,700
that's lost Penn State recognition,

1631
01:18:34,033 --> 01:18:35,300
lost national recognition.

1632
01:18:35,834 --> 01:18:37,934
And then we would be in a position where we would,

1633
01:18:38,033 --> 01:18:39,834
depending on what the manager or counsel

1634
01:18:39,834 --> 01:18:40,834
and the solicitor wanna do,

1635
01:18:41,000 --> 01:18:43,066
whether it would be entering legal challenge

1636
01:18:43,033 --> 01:18:45,133
to basically pull the occupancy permit

1637
01:18:45,500 --> 01:18:46,634
'cause it's no longer a fraternity.

1638
01:18:47,066 --> 01:18:48,734
- Okay. Yeah, that's really what I was trying to get at.

1639
01:18:48,734 --> 01:18:53,000
Yeah. So this is, this is an attempt to take those, those

1640
01:18:53,900 --> 01:18:56,066
potentially, right, the, the buildings

1641
01:18:56,066 --> 01:18:58,634
that have organizations in them that have sort

1642
01:18:58,634 --> 01:19:00,567
of been kicked outta the university system

1643
01:19:00,667 --> 01:19:03,033
and are doing independent in this case.

1644
01:19:03,900 --> 01:19:07,033
You know, you could now say you're no longer a fraternity

1645
01:19:07,033 --> 01:19:09,066
use 'cause that's not our definition and

1646
01:19:09,066 --> 01:19:11,300
therefore you're not allowed

1647
01:19:11,300 --> 01:19:12,634
to rent the building anymore. Correct?

1648
01:19:13,367 --> 01:19:14,467
- Well they would have to, they,

1649
01:19:14,500 --> 01:19:15,634
it would have to become permitted use.

1650
01:19:15,700 --> 01:19:18,467
So frankly they were, they would have

1651
01:19:18,567 --> 01:19:19,834
to get national recognition

1652
01:19:19,867 --> 01:19:21,500
or Penn State recognition. So Yeah,

1653
01:19:21,500 --> 01:19:23,233
- Or, - Or what, what we're trying to prevent

1654
01:19:24,066 --> 01:19:25,700
is 42 rooming houses

1655
01:19:26,100 --> 01:19:29,000
because you have to be able to define the difference

1656
01:19:29,000 --> 01:19:30,567
between a fraternity and a rooming house.

1657
01:19:31,100 --> 01:19:34,100
We, we believe that the municipality has the right to say

1658
01:19:34,033 --> 01:19:35,700
what is, what is a fraternity.

1659
01:19:37,066 --> 01:19:39,467
I think that if you look at the definition in the

1660
01:19:39,467 --> 01:19:43,033
dictionary, a Greek letter, you know, a Greek letter group

1661
01:19:43,133 --> 01:19:45,000
that has some kind of affiliation,

1662
01:19:46,066 --> 01:19:49,867
we also then are gonna be requesting the membership roles

1663
01:19:50,133 --> 01:19:51,367
to try to get to that occupancy limit.

1664
01:19:51,667 --> 01:19:53,000
We have not historically done that.

1665
01:19:53,467 --> 01:19:54,700
We're gonna have to figure out how

1666
01:19:54,700 --> 01:19:56,133
to approach that systematically.

1667
01:19:56,333 --> 01:19:59,100
I can't treat one property different than the other. So.

1668
01:19:59,266 --> 01:20:00,934
Okay. We're probably asking, you know,

1669
01:20:00,934 --> 01:20:02,767
at least the independent, we'll probably in the,

1670
01:20:02,767 --> 01:20:05,567
in the end have to ask 42 property owners

1671
01:20:05,634 --> 01:20:08,300
to provide their membership roles and their leases.

1672
01:20:08,333 --> 01:20:10,500
So you can imagine the staff time involved in that.

1673
01:20:12,900 --> 01:20:15,867
- Tony - And it will have to be and

1674
01:20:15,934 --> 01:20:18,567
or permitted by Penn State.

1675
01:20:19,066 --> 01:20:21,000
- Yeah, it's, it's mutually and national charter.

1676
01:20:21,033 --> 01:20:24,066
They're inclusive. So it could be one or the other or both.

1677
01:20:24,634 --> 01:20:26,066
So you gotta have to have it,

1678
01:20:26,133 --> 01:20:28,100
you need at least one. Oh, okay. Yeah.

1679
01:20:28,367 --> 01:20:30,000
- Can you make it that it has to have be two?

1680
01:20:31,033 --> 01:20:33,500
- We would, we would lose. Okay.

1681
01:20:33,533 --> 01:20:35,767
Hands down because we already lost once on

1682
01:20:35,767 --> 01:20:37,033
requiring Penn State recognition.

1683
01:20:37,033 --> 01:20:38,033
Alright

1684
01:20:39,367 --> 01:20:44,233
- Susan, I'm always interested in enforcement

1685
01:20:45,266 --> 01:20:46,567
whenever we write things like

1686
01:20:47,000 --> 01:20:48,834
how do they actually end up happening?

1687
01:20:49,266 --> 01:20:53,634
So how often would these recognitions be checked?

1688
01:20:53,834 --> 01:20:55,100
Is this every year when you get

1689
01:20:56,066 --> 01:20:57,333
- Yeah, we already do that every year.

1690
01:20:57,500 --> 01:20:58,834
So I get a list from Penn State

1691
01:20:58,834 --> 01:21:03,066
and I just got one last week that has the fall 2025 numbers

1692
01:21:03,266 --> 01:21:05,000
as far as those properties that,

1693
01:21:05,033 --> 01:21:06,934
that they recognize. So there're

1694
01:21:07,033 --> 01:21:10,934
- No, no, I meant all like I'm speaking as a whole,

1695
01:21:12,100 --> 01:21:13,500
the independents

1696
01:21:13,567 --> 01:21:17,533
and the Penn State recognize like to the Borough, it seems

1697
01:21:17,533 --> 01:21:18,934
to me that they would all be the same.

1698
01:21:19,634 --> 01:21:21,867
- Yeah, we, we are only checking the properties

1699
01:21:21,867 --> 01:21:23,333
that Penn State has indicated are no

1700
01:21:23,333 --> 01:21:24,634
longer recognized by the university.

1701
01:21:24,700 --> 01:21:26,133
So those are the ones that we've reached out

1702
01:21:26,133 --> 01:21:27,500
to say we need a national letter.

1703
01:21:29,033 --> 01:21:31,000
Interesting. Because I, because I have something from Penn

1704
01:21:31,000 --> 01:21:33,533
State saying that the other 36 ish are,

1705
01:21:34,133 --> 01:21:36,033
are recognized by the university. So,

1706
01:21:36,033 --> 01:21:40,567
- Okay, so well

1707
01:21:41,033 --> 01:21:45,533
I can't help but ask, so if it's, I don't know, February

1708
01:21:46,100 --> 01:21:49,467
and a fraternity loses both Penn State and

1709
01:21:49,834 --> 01:21:50,834
- National.

1710
01:21:50,834 --> 01:21:51,066
That's a really great question for Terry Williams.

1711
01:21:51,533 --> 01:21:52,634
- Thank you. Okay.

1712
01:21:53,066 --> 01:21:54,000
I didn't think you would want to answer that.

1713
01:21:54,000 --> 01:21:59,066
And then why not year round at 60%?

1714
01:21:59,100 --> 01:22:01,266
Why is it just based on the academic calendar

1715
01:22:01,834 --> 01:22:04,000
- That goes back, that's been that way for

1716
01:22:04,867 --> 01:22:06,233
60 years in the Ordinance.

1717
01:22:06,500 --> 01:22:09,834
I mean the original Ordinance had allowance for spring for,

1718
01:22:10,000 --> 01:22:11,467
for summer occupancy.

1719
01:22:11,567 --> 01:22:14,567
- Okay, well but this is a new Ordinance so you know,

1720
01:22:15,266 --> 01:22:18,233
- There's no way we're gonna be able to enforce 42 univer

1721
01:22:18,500 --> 01:22:20,867
to, to be able to say who's living in there for the summer.

1722
01:22:21,033 --> 01:22:24,066
Like I like we could write it but we're not enforcing it.

1723
01:22:24,300 --> 01:22:27,767
- Just photo desk. Neil,

1724
01:22:31,000 --> 01:22:32,233
- Under potential

1725
01:22:32,233 --> 01:22:35,033
- Additional uses, did you consider transformation

1726
01:22:35,033 --> 01:22:38,000
of these fraternities into town homes or apartment

1727
01:22:38,100 --> 01:22:39,100
- Buildings?

1728
01:22:39,100 --> 01:22:42,000
Yeah, the multifamily use was specifically removed.

1729
01:22:42,133 --> 01:22:45,500
So in 71 when that original section was created,

1730
01:22:46,100 --> 01:22:47,834
multifamily was a permitted use

1731
01:22:48,100 --> 01:22:50,300
to be converted somewhere along the way,

1732
01:22:50,367 --> 01:22:52,000
and I haven't gone back to find out when,

1733
01:22:52,700 --> 01:22:54,066
if you look in the existing Ordinance,

1734
01:22:54,066 --> 01:22:56,066
there's a little asterisk under one of those items

1735
01:22:56,166 --> 01:22:57,934
that asterisk was multifamily.

1736
01:22:58,166 --> 01:23:00,066
So council specifically removed

1737
01:23:00,066 --> 01:23:01,467
that ability at some point in

1738
01:23:01,467 --> 01:23:02,767
the probably eighties or nineties.

1739
01:23:03,834 --> 01:23:06,634
So we did not look at including that back

1740
01:23:06,634 --> 01:23:07,834
because again now we're into a,

1741
01:23:08,000 --> 01:23:10,266
a multifamily rooming house use situation.

1742
01:23:10,467 --> 01:23:12,000
So if counsel wants to do that,

1743
01:23:12,100 --> 01:23:13,767
we can certainly change that.

1744
01:23:13,834 --> 01:23:17,266
But we, since there had been a pretty concerted effort

1745
01:23:17,266 --> 01:23:18,634
to remove the ability to convert

1746
01:23:18,634 --> 01:23:20,233
to multifamily, we let it lie.

1747
01:23:21,000 --> 01:23:22,000
So

1748
01:23:22,166 --> 01:23:25,767
- Alex, - Well to pick up on what Neil is saying, maybe

1749
01:23:25,767 --> 01:23:28,000
that's a situation where you could deed restrict those

1750
01:23:28,700 --> 01:23:30,333
in order to get the multi-family use

1751
01:23:31,500 --> 01:23:32,500
- In order to what?

1752
01:23:32,500 --> 01:23:35,266
- So permit multi-family but no student. No, no student.

1753
01:23:35,667 --> 01:23:37,333
- Yeah. I mean, you know, if if the aversion

1754
01:23:37,333 --> 01:23:39,300
to a rooming house and a boarding house

1755
01:23:39,500 --> 01:23:43,066
that there'll be students, then maybe that's a place

1756
01:23:43,066 --> 01:23:47,000
where you could have a rehab that allows non-students

1757
01:23:47,100 --> 01:23:50,934
to live just a, I mean, you know, kicking things around

1758
01:23:53,900 --> 01:23:56,734
- Anita, - Two points, I don't know all the ins

1759
01:23:56,734 --> 01:23:58,767
and outs of the cooperative housing stuff

1760
01:23:58,767 --> 01:24:00,266
that Zoe has talked about.

1761
01:24:00,567 --> 01:24:01,867
- Yeah, we're still doing work on that.

1762
01:24:02,066 --> 01:24:03,066
We don't know either. That

1763
01:24:03,066 --> 01:24:05,533
- Seems like a possible use for some of these buildings.

1764
01:24:05,533 --> 01:24:09,700
Yeah. And secondly the 60% allows

1765
01:24:09,700 --> 01:24:11,367
for a 40% rooming house.

1766
01:24:12,667 --> 01:24:14,133
- Yeah, I mean currently the Ordinance allows

1767
01:24:14,133 --> 01:24:15,567
for 50% rooming house. Yeah.

1768
01:24:15,700 --> 01:24:19,934
- So, and that seems like a very odd hybrid if we

1769
01:24:19,934 --> 01:24:21,100
don't want rooming houses.

1770
01:24:22,133 --> 01:24:24,834
- Yeah, I think - Maybe 10% would be reasonable.

1771
01:24:24,900 --> 01:24:27,133
And I do understand about the summer occupancy.

1772
01:24:27,300 --> 01:24:30,367
A friend of mine owned about 1971 who was a woman,

1773
01:24:30,634 --> 01:24:32,834
got cheap housing in a fraternity through that.

1774
01:24:33,066 --> 01:24:37,300
But you know, that wasn't a problem. Well it was, oh god,

1775
01:24:37,300 --> 01:24:38,300
- That's okay.

1776
01:24:38,300 --> 01:24:41,000
But we are, we are doing some research on other college

1777
01:24:41,066 --> 01:24:44,100
towns to see if they have these kinds

1778
01:24:44,100 --> 01:24:47,066
of restrictions related to the occupancy percentage to see

1779
01:24:47,100 --> 01:24:50,333
what maybe some other Big 10 and SC C schools are doing.

1780
01:24:50,767 --> 01:24:52,734
So we're doing some research on that to see if we've

1781
01:24:53,433 --> 01:24:55,567
got any ideas about what seems reasonable.

1782
01:24:56,066 --> 01:24:59,066
I know that, you know, I met with two owners

1783
01:24:59,433 --> 01:25:03,000
or two representative fraternities with Tom a few weeks ago

1784
01:25:03,100 --> 01:25:07,000
and one of the conversation sounded like there was maybe 20,

1785
01:25:07,000 --> 01:25:09,767
30% and one of the fraternities was not members.

1786
01:25:10,066 --> 01:25:12,634
So I also know other fraternities that are a hundred percent

1787
01:25:12,867 --> 01:25:15,266
so it, it really comes down to the size of fraternity

1788
01:25:15,266 --> 01:25:16,467
and size of the fraternity building

1789
01:25:16,834 --> 01:25:20,000
and are they getting enough, getting enough members,

1790
01:25:23,367 --> 01:25:24,367
- I'll make a comment.

1791
01:25:27,734 --> 01:25:32,033
I think that we should deal with

1792
01:25:33,000 --> 01:25:35,333
some very specific matters

1793
01:25:36,100 --> 01:25:40,533
with this particular Zoning change at this time.

1794
01:25:41,033 --> 01:25:44,700
The whole phenomenon of fraternities

1795
01:25:45,100 --> 01:25:46,500
changing their nature

1796
01:25:47,166 --> 01:25:50,300
and not wanting to be affiliated with the university

1797
01:25:50,467 --> 01:25:54,634
or losing affiliated affiliation with the university

1798
01:25:55,100 --> 01:25:56,934
or are they,

1799
01:25:57,000 --> 01:26:00,300
or are they not affiliated with a national chapter

1800
01:26:02,100 --> 01:26:06,000
that is a societal change

1801
01:26:06,066 --> 01:26:07,367
that is beyond us.

1802
01:26:08,266 --> 01:26:12,634
Also the desire for rooming house space

1803
01:26:13,166 --> 01:26:17,467
or cooperative living space that is not focused on students

1804
01:26:18,300 --> 01:26:22,066
also may an evolving matter

1805
01:26:22,700 --> 01:26:26,467
and let's not try to predict the future.

1806
01:26:27,033 --> 01:26:30,634
I would love to learn more about what's going on

1807
01:26:31,300 --> 01:26:34,300
with the changing nature of fraternities,

1808
01:26:35,934 --> 01:26:39,333
but I, I don't think that we are

1809
01:26:40,166 --> 01:26:43,533
in the position in the course of passing on this

1810
01:26:44,634 --> 01:26:48,066
Zoning within two weeks onto the,

1811
01:26:48,333 --> 01:26:52,934
the next step in its process to sort out this issue.

1812
01:26:57,567 --> 01:27:01,634
And I, I think what we ought to do personally is

1813
01:27:02,300 --> 01:27:05,500
take the, the proposed Zoning

1814
01:27:05,900 --> 01:27:07,900
as it is currently written

1815
01:27:08,567 --> 01:27:12,133
and acknowledge that in the future we are going to have

1816
01:27:12,133 --> 01:27:13,533
to tackle this particular issue.

1817
01:27:13,634 --> 01:27:15,700
Again, there are going to be amendments

1818
01:27:20,634 --> 01:27:22,533
- I would think, as another potential additional use

1819
01:27:22,634 --> 01:27:25,634
unless that would be considered somehow in the hotel motel

1820
01:27:25,634 --> 01:27:27,367
piece would be a bed and breakfast.

1821
01:27:27,367 --> 01:27:30,500
Just because the transition, if you're gonna invest in it,

1822
01:27:30,500 --> 01:27:31,767
would lend itself well

1823
01:27:31,767 --> 01:27:34,367
and probably be relatively reasonable compared

1824
01:27:34,367 --> 01:27:36,233
to other construction costs.

1825
01:27:41,467 --> 01:27:43,000
- Okay. Any other comments on this one?

1826
01:27:46,500 --> 01:27:47,900
- Appears not. - Okay.

1827
01:27:48,233 --> 01:27:49,700
- Alright. Accessory dwelling units.

1828
01:27:50,567 --> 01:27:52,700
So Ron, now we're back on this topic.

1829
01:27:53,133 --> 01:27:56,066
And again, I, we we're from staff standpoint, we're trying

1830
01:27:56,066 --> 01:27:57,867
to treat these separately

1831
01:27:57,867 --> 01:28:02,266
because they are, this would be an ex,

1832
01:28:02,767 --> 01:28:05,433
an additional unit on a property for,

1833
01:28:05,567 --> 01:28:07,133
on a one family detached dwelling.

1834
01:28:07,500 --> 01:28:10,133
And I just wanna point out this is, this is clearly

1835
01:28:10,066 --> 01:28:11,100
for a single family home.

1836
01:28:11,100 --> 01:28:14,100
So we're not talking about a duplex or a triplex or a quad.

1837
01:28:14,266 --> 01:28:17,133
So you'd only be able to put an A DU on a one family home.

1838
01:28:18,467 --> 01:28:21,867
This, it also specifically excludes a mobile home

1839
01:28:21,867 --> 01:28:25,567
manufactured home camper or an RV as an accessor drawing.

1840
01:28:25,567 --> 01:28:28,166
We've had some advocates who have been,

1841
01:28:28,634 --> 01:28:32,867
who who've advocated pretty strongly for ADUs on wheels

1842
01:28:32,867 --> 01:28:36,266
that can be wheeled in this specifically precludes that.

1843
01:28:38,500 --> 01:28:40,567
So just to go through some of the general standards

1844
01:28:41,634 --> 01:28:44,567
that it has it's accessory to a one family dwelling

1845
01:28:45,433 --> 01:28:48,300
and that it's no no more than one A DU on the lot

1846
01:28:49,834 --> 01:28:52,033
that it has to be, that the A DU has

1847
01:28:52,033 --> 01:28:54,066
to be in the same district as the one family home.

1848
01:28:54,066 --> 01:28:55,433
That there's only a couple lots

1849
01:28:55,433 --> 01:28:56,634
that are split zone like that.

1850
01:28:57,734 --> 01:28:59,834
NADU is needs

1851
01:28:59,834 --> 01:29:02,634
to meet the minimum lot width in the Zoning districts.

1852
01:29:02,634 --> 01:29:05,300
You can't, I mean one of the goals of this has been to get

1853
01:29:05,433 --> 01:29:08,033
to make most of the lots conforming.

1854
01:29:08,934 --> 01:29:12,033
So in this case that's kinda what we're doing here as far as

1855
01:29:13,066 --> 01:29:14,934
you know, we, hopefully we've made enough conforming lots

1856
01:29:14,934 --> 01:29:16,333
and now the A DU would be permitted on it.

1857
01:29:17,867 --> 01:29:20,000
You can't subdivide the A DU off.

1858
01:29:20,233 --> 01:29:21,367
So you, you know, we wanted

1859
01:29:21,367 --> 01:29:23,266
to make sure someone didn't come in, build an A DU

1860
01:29:23,266 --> 01:29:25,567
and split it in on essentially it's a single family home

1861
01:29:26,567 --> 01:29:30,767
do require that the A DU has to use the utilities on site

1862
01:29:30,934 --> 01:29:32,700
so we don't have composting toilets.

1863
01:29:33,567 --> 01:29:36,066
And then also that you have

1864
01:29:36,066 --> 01:29:37,834
to access it from the assisting driveway

1865
01:29:38,000 --> 01:29:41,300
or if you're coming at it from another right of way,

1866
01:29:41,300 --> 01:29:43,333
like an alley, you can access it from there.

1867
01:29:44,634 --> 01:29:47,100
We were specific about the A DU having to have a kitchen,

1868
01:29:47,367 --> 01:29:49,000
a living room area, a sleeping area,

1869
01:29:49,066 --> 01:29:50,000
at least one bed bedroom

1870
01:29:50,533 --> 01:29:52,066
and it can't have more than two bedrooms

1871
01:29:52,467 --> 01:29:54,700
and that there needs to be at least one parking space

1872
01:29:55,000 --> 01:29:58,567
provided for the A DU Also that

1873
01:29:59,634 --> 01:30:01,567
there Claire and included some language

1874
01:30:01,567 --> 01:30:04,033
that we don't believe is actually legal in Pennsylvania when

1875
01:30:04,033 --> 01:30:06,000
it comes to requiring colors

1876
01:30:06,467 --> 01:30:09,567
and architectural design to be similar to the existing use.

1877
01:30:09,567 --> 01:30:11,000
And we're gonna recommend that gets removed.

1878
01:30:11,734 --> 01:30:12,734
I have a list of a couple of

1879
01:30:12,734 --> 01:30:13,900
staff recommendations here in a minute.

1880
01:30:15,066 --> 01:30:20,066
And also that there is a requirement that the A DU that the,

1881
01:30:20,233 --> 01:30:22,667
the permanent full-time residence of the owner of the lot.

1882
01:30:22,934 --> 01:30:25,100
So either the single family home or the A DU.

1883
01:30:25,367 --> 01:30:29,000
So this is specifically written to prevent a situation

1884
01:30:29,000 --> 01:30:31,333
where you've got a landlord with a tenant in the single

1885
01:30:31,333 --> 01:30:34,000
family home, then builds an A DU

1886
01:30:34,000 --> 01:30:36,033
and rents out the A DU to another tenant.

1887
01:30:36,133 --> 01:30:40,667
This is specifically written to prevent that also

1888
01:30:40,667 --> 01:30:43,033
that the A DU cannot can't be condoed

1889
01:30:43,100 --> 01:30:46,900
and sold separately from the one family dwelling that

1890
01:30:47,767 --> 01:30:50,634
there's no variance that can be approved for the A DU.

1891
01:30:50,634 --> 01:30:53,266
So if you've got a situations where there's maybe a lot

1892
01:30:53,367 --> 01:30:55,734
that's dimensionally not quite compliant,

1893
01:30:56,533 --> 01:30:58,000
we can't have an owner going

1894
01:30:58,000 --> 01:31:00,700
and getting a variance to allow the a DU to be constructed.

1895
01:31:01,367 --> 01:31:03,500
And as with the triplexes

1896
01:31:03,500 --> 01:31:05,166
and quads, there'd be a deed restriction

1897
01:31:05,634 --> 01:31:06,734
for no short-term rental use

1898
01:31:07,467 --> 01:31:09,567
and a deed restriction for college

1899
01:31:09,567 --> 01:31:11,100
or university students as tenants.

1900
01:31:14,233 --> 01:31:17,834
And we have some additional standards related to the size

1901
01:31:17,834 --> 01:31:22,133
of the A DU, no more than the lesser of either 25%

1902
01:31:22,133 --> 01:31:25,233
of the gross area of the single family home or 600 feet.

1903
01:31:25,500 --> 01:31:26,900
And we had talked about this with council

1904
01:31:26,900 --> 01:31:29,467
before, they wanted to go up to 800 that seemed

1905
01:31:29,634 --> 01:31:30,634
to be agreed upon number.

1906
01:31:31,033 --> 01:31:33,233
So we, we have a couple recommendations along this line

1907
01:31:34,333 --> 01:31:36,934
and also that the access to the A DU

1908
01:31:37,467 --> 01:31:39,266
can only be from the side of the rear yard.

1909
01:31:40,133 --> 01:31:41,367
So we didn't want a situation

1910
01:31:41,367 --> 01:31:43,467
where someone's coming in from the front.

1911
01:31:46,033 --> 01:31:47,734
That's something that I like.

1912
01:31:47,734 --> 01:31:50,000
I'm not sure that's a huge issue that that could be removed.

1913
01:31:50,367 --> 01:31:53,000
That might end up being precluding some good opportunities.

1914
01:31:55,133 --> 01:31:58,433
And also just some language about interconnecting with how,

1915
01:31:58,467 --> 01:32:00,333
how it's interconnected with the single family home.

1916
01:32:02,233 --> 01:32:05,567
And then some similar language on the detached ADUs as well.

1917
01:32:07,033 --> 01:32:08,567
So a couple suggestions from staff

1918
01:32:08,567 --> 01:32:11,467
and that one is again, back to what council agreed on is

1919
01:32:11,567 --> 01:32:12,900
to go to 800 square feet.

1920
01:32:12,900 --> 01:32:16,834
The both for the internal, so they, the E attached a DU,

1921
01:32:17,066 --> 01:32:19,100
the internal A DU to the property

1922
01:32:19,000 --> 01:32:23,934
or a detached A DU allow up to two bedrooms

1923
01:32:24,066 --> 01:32:27,100
and 40% of the principal structure size 25%.

1924
01:32:27,100 --> 01:32:29,000
Just from a staff standpoint, when we started looking at,

1925
01:32:29,133 --> 01:32:33,567
at sizes of houses, you, you, you 25%, you would end up

1926
01:32:33,567 --> 01:32:37,867
with like some 200, 250 square foot ADUs.

1927
01:32:38,133 --> 01:32:39,867
We just felt that that would potentially be too,

1928
01:32:40,100 --> 01:32:41,900
that would be too limiting and too small.

1929
01:32:43,300 --> 01:32:45,700
We just had some clarification language you need about,

1930
01:32:45,900 --> 01:32:49,166
there was some, we didn't know why clearing had written

1931
01:32:49,166 --> 01:32:50,567
that it was one A DU

1932
01:32:50,567 --> 01:32:52,000
or one dwelling unit for the whole thing

1933
01:32:52,000 --> 01:32:54,066
and then later on said no, it's an additional dwelling unit.

1934
01:32:54,100 --> 01:32:56,266
So there just needs to be some cleanup in the language.

1935
01:32:57,367 --> 01:33:00,367
So just removing the reference to the regulation

1936
01:33:00,367 --> 01:33:03,266
of the appearance character color, we don't believe

1937
01:33:03,266 --> 01:33:04,734
that we have the legal authority to do that.

1938
01:33:05,634 --> 01:33:08,100
And then finally also just specifically require

1939
01:33:08,100 --> 01:33:10,066
that the ADUs to be constructed with a foundation.

1940
01:33:11,734 --> 01:33:13,133
It might be belt and suspenders,

1941
01:33:13,133 --> 01:33:15,700
but we just felt that we wanted to make sure that was clear.

1942
01:33:17,467 --> 01:33:21,500
So that's all I've got on that section. Any suggestions?

1943
01:33:21,934 --> 01:33:24,367
Any we, we didn't,

1944
01:33:24,867 --> 01:33:26,834
we didn't necessarily prepare this for summarizing tonight.

1945
01:33:26,834 --> 01:33:27,834
It was more of a, you know,

1946
01:33:27,834 --> 01:33:29,700
do you have specific things you'd like to see changed

1947
01:33:31,066 --> 01:33:32,233
or if you'd like to see

1948
01:33:32,233 --> 01:33:34,166
that section pulled out in its entirety,

1949
01:33:34,367 --> 01:33:37,867
it was definitely written to be encapsulated

1950
01:33:38,100 --> 01:33:41,467
or maybe you include the attached ADUs

1951
01:33:41,467 --> 01:33:43,100
but remove the detached ADUs.

1952
01:33:43,133 --> 01:33:44,166
A lot of different ways we can go,

1953
01:33:44,266 --> 01:33:45,433
but just wanna get your input.

1954
01:33:46,033 --> 01:33:47,734
- I think as far as we talk about affordability

1955
01:33:47,934 --> 01:33:51,233
and different ways that we can get families downtown,

1956
01:33:51,367 --> 01:33:54,834
I don't see the benefit of deed restricting detached a

1957
01:33:55,467 --> 01:33:59,333
eds whether or ADUs a ADU regard

1958
01:33:59,500 --> 01:34:00,500
- EDU's a sewer.

1959
01:34:00,500 --> 01:34:02,834
- Yeah, we should restrict that for sure.

1960
01:34:03,500 --> 01:34:06,133
No, there shouldn't be deed restriction on ADUs in my

1961
01:34:06,133 --> 01:34:10,233
opinion because if the principal, if the principal residence

1962
01:34:10,233 --> 01:34:11,900
and it's a way for them to make secondary income,

1963
01:34:11,900 --> 01:34:14,133
there's not really a negative consequence

1964
01:34:14,133 --> 01:34:15,834
to having a student in a detached structure

1965
01:34:16,000 --> 01:34:17,467
or even a short term Airbnb.

1966
01:34:17,900 --> 01:34:19,433
I think that's a objectively different

1967
01:34:20,166 --> 01:34:23,233
circumstance when people say, oh, the town was taken over

1968
01:34:23,266 --> 01:34:24,934
by all the single fame hamms and now students

1969
01:34:25,066 --> 01:34:26,567
or now they're all Airbnb's.

1970
01:34:27,066 --> 01:34:29,133
I think that freedom to use the, their space

1971
01:34:29,133 --> 01:34:31,333
and their property as they want to, allows 'em

1972
01:34:31,333 --> 01:34:33,433
to have income benefit in a way

1973
01:34:33,433 --> 01:34:36,367
that's no different than operating a a separate business

1974
01:34:36,367 --> 01:34:37,467
or outta their home.

1975
01:34:37,567 --> 01:34:40,333
So I would recommend removing that in that circumstance.

1976
01:34:42,567 --> 01:34:45,100
- Anita, how would it be enforce

1977
01:34:45,033 --> 01:34:48,000
that the owner is a full-time resident

1978
01:34:48,000 --> 01:34:49,000
and what does that even mean?

1979
01:34:49,066 --> 01:34:52,834
Does that mean somebody who's here Oh, for the summer

1980
01:34:53,533 --> 01:34:55,834
- Or, yeah, we, we always have this problem with

1981
01:34:55,867 --> 01:34:56,934
what exactly does that mean?

1982
01:34:57,033 --> 01:34:59,567
So in our short term rental Ordinance, we say eight months

1983
01:34:59,567 --> 01:35:02,066
and a comment that I have declaring is we need to tighten

1984
01:35:02,066 --> 01:35:04,266
that up a bit as far as exactly what that means.

1985
01:35:04,367 --> 01:35:06,700
But that is an enforcement challenge.

1986
01:35:07,033 --> 01:35:10,233
As far as principal residency, we get lied

1987
01:35:10,233 --> 01:35:13,300
to an awful lot about people who, you know, say they're,

1988
01:35:13,300 --> 01:35:14,266
it's their principal residence, but

1989
01:35:14,266 --> 01:35:15,233
they're living in New Jersey.

1990
01:35:16,100 --> 01:35:17,100
No offense in New Jersey.

1991
01:35:19,467 --> 01:35:21,100
- Oh, okay. Another question.

1992
01:35:21,300 --> 01:35:23,100
Getting back to what Curtis said,

1993
01:35:26,834 --> 01:35:29,767
My experience with students is we have students in our house

1994
01:35:29,767 --> 01:35:31,834
and in the backyard, both quite legally.

1995
01:35:33,133 --> 01:35:36,634
And we've learned that if we say upfront, okay,

1996
01:35:36,667 --> 01:35:39,700
we live on this property, if you're not prepared to deal

1997
01:35:39,700 --> 01:35:41,133
with your landlord being right there

1998
01:35:41,634 --> 01:35:44,500
to know what's going on, you probably don't wanna live here.

1999
01:35:45,266 --> 01:35:47,767
Now I don't know if that would apply to everybody or not,

2000
01:35:48,900 --> 01:35:53,033
but the Airbnb, the problem with that has been in a lot

2001
01:35:53,033 --> 01:35:55,233
of neighborhoods just far too much coming and going

2002
01:35:55,266 --> 01:35:58,233
and partying of people who don't live there permanently.

2003
01:35:59,100 --> 01:36:01,100
And it's been very hard on the neighborhood.

2004
01:36:02,100 --> 01:36:04,333
So I would say not Airbnb,

2005
01:36:05,500 --> 01:36:08,467
but I'm also wondering if 800 square feet,

2006
01:36:12,500 --> 01:36:16,634
I know we have three apartments that are much smaller than

2007
01:36:16,634 --> 01:36:20,567
that and they're readily rented to, well two,

2008
01:36:21,033 --> 01:36:22,934
two working people and one grad student

2009
01:36:23,867 --> 01:36:26,166
and we've never had any problem filling them.

2010
01:36:26,233 --> 01:36:28,066
So I, I don't know if that's necessary

2011
01:36:28,000 --> 01:36:29,133
or a good idea or not.

2012
01:36:32,000 --> 01:36:36,166
- Susan, just a couple

2013
01:36:36,567 --> 01:36:37,700
questions for clarification.

2014
01:36:37,834 --> 01:36:40,734
What's the difference between an A DU and an apartment?

2015
01:36:42,033 --> 01:36:44,133
- Yeah, we're trying to get away from, we're,

2016
01:36:44,133 --> 01:36:45,900
we're considering it an accessory dwelling unit.

2017
01:36:45,900 --> 01:36:47,433
Either the attached or attached.

2018
01:36:47,734 --> 01:36:50,467
So the, the, the attached would be an internal,

2019
01:36:51,033 --> 01:36:53,900
so you'd have an 800 square foot separate unit

2020
01:36:54,467 --> 01:36:56,634
that could be in the basement, that could be on the back

2021
01:36:56,634 --> 01:36:58,133
of the house, et cetera.

2022
01:36:58,033 --> 01:37:00,834
We're, we're trying to get away from this single family home

2023
01:37:00,834 --> 01:37:03,133
plus apartment and just say, what, what is the apartment?

2024
01:37:03,133 --> 01:37:05,100
Okay. It's an, it's accessory dwelling unit,

2025
01:37:05,233 --> 01:37:07,100
whether it's internal or external.

2026
01:37:07,100 --> 01:37:08,867
Again, there's some different standards for that,

2027
01:37:09,033 --> 01:37:10,100
but that's how we're training it.

2028
01:37:10,100 --> 01:37:12,000
At least that's how this Ordinance treats it going forward.

2029
01:37:12,467 --> 01:37:13,567
- And that's what I thought.

2030
01:37:13,634 --> 01:37:17,567
And so then you could have a

2031
01:37:18,000 --> 01:37:21,367
attached A DU, but then you could not have a detached

2032
01:37:21,867 --> 01:37:24,900
- A DU and that's a great policy' question as far as what,

2033
01:37:24,900 --> 01:37:26,834
what the preference is right now.

2034
01:37:26,834 --> 01:37:27,834
It's written, you get one.

2035
01:37:28,100 --> 01:37:30,100
But if you wanted to have an internal and,

2036
01:37:30,266 --> 01:37:32,100
and a detached, that's certainly something

2037
01:37:32,100 --> 01:37:34,333
that could be written and we just need guidance on that.

2038
01:37:34,467 --> 01:37:37,000
When we talked about it last spring, it seemed

2039
01:37:37,000 --> 01:37:38,033
to be just one,

2040
01:37:38,634 --> 01:37:41,000
but yeah, people can change their minds. So,

2041
01:37:41,734 --> 01:37:44,433
- So, so the question for me,

2042
01:37:46,533 --> 01:37:49,000
I'm it was leading up to when does it become then a duplex?

2043
01:37:50,700 --> 01:37:53,834
If you have an attached a DU, when,

2044
01:37:53,867 --> 01:37:55,100
when does it become a duplex?

2045
01:37:55,567 --> 01:37:59,100
- Yeah. And that's, there are building code issues relative

2046
01:37:59,033 --> 01:38:00,934
to firewalls, et cetera.

2047
01:38:01,567 --> 01:38:03,467
As far as, and I don't, I'm not gonna try

2048
01:38:03,467 --> 01:38:04,767
to play Walt, but Right.

2049
01:38:04,867 --> 01:38:06,066
You know, I know that there are structural

2050
01:38:06,066 --> 01:38:07,100
issues with the duplex.

2051
01:38:08,700 --> 01:38:10,834
I, I wanna get a little more clarity on exactly,

2052
01:38:10,834 --> 01:38:12,000
because I've been asked this

2053
01:38:12,000 --> 01:38:13,700
by a couple folks in the last couple weeks.

2054
01:38:14,100 --> 01:38:16,934
So I think we need to do a little bit more work to be able

2055
01:38:16,934 --> 01:38:19,333
to explain that exactly as far

2056
01:38:19,333 --> 01:38:20,934
as what's required from a building code

2057
01:38:20,934 --> 01:38:23,033
standpoint for it to be duplex. So

2058
01:38:23,500 --> 01:38:26,300
- I would like to lend my support of,

2059
01:38:28,734 --> 01:38:30,634
I think there are a lot of really large houses

2060
01:38:31,467 --> 01:38:36,033
and there could be opportunities for an internal

2061
01:38:36,033 --> 01:38:40,000
or attached a DU and a detached.

2062
01:38:40,000 --> 01:38:42,000
I think there would be nothing wrong with

2063
01:38:42,000 --> 01:38:43,266
that in certain circumstances.

2064
01:38:43,734 --> 01:38:47,100
Also, a question about the deed restrictions.

2065
01:38:47,533 --> 01:38:50,734
Wouldn't the student home rule apply

2066
01:38:52,133 --> 01:38:53,767
with the separation requirements?

2067
01:38:54,000 --> 01:38:56,767
And so, I mean, wouldn't I'll leave it a town?

2068
01:38:56,900 --> 01:38:58,300
- Yeah, no, we, we've looked at that.

2069
01:38:58,333 --> 01:39:01,133
The way that the student home rule is written right now, it,

2070
01:39:01,567 --> 01:39:04,033
it wouldn't cover the A DU, it doesn't mean

2071
01:39:04,033 --> 01:39:05,100
that we couldn't add it in.

2072
01:39:06,166 --> 01:39:08,634
So this was a cleaner way just to say no,

2073
01:39:09,266 --> 01:39:11,934
because then you're not into, I mean, do, do,

2074
01:39:12,133 --> 01:39:14,100
remember there are some places you could have a new student

2075
01:39:14,100 --> 01:39:15,367
home in State College?

2076
01:39:15,700 --> 01:39:18,867
I don't, not gonna, we don't have a map specifically,

2077
01:39:18,900 --> 01:39:22,533
but we have a pretty idea where they are the, at the end

2078
01:39:22,533 --> 01:39:26,100
of the day, we just thought it was cleaner to, you know,

2079
01:39:26,100 --> 01:39:28,700
just what do you want, do that in the code?

2080
01:39:28,934 --> 01:39:30,133
Do do you want to prohibit student

2081
01:39:30,133 --> 01:39:31,700
rentals from the ADUs or not?

2082
01:39:33,133 --> 01:39:34,066
The sense I'm getting is

2083
01:39:34,066 --> 01:39:36,233
that maybe student rental is okay in the ADUs,

2084
01:39:36,233 --> 01:39:39,700
but not short term rental use based on neighbor impact.

2085
01:39:40,634 --> 01:39:42,367
But we're, we're just looking for some guidance on that.

2086
01:39:42,367 --> 01:39:43,867
That's what we thought we got coming out

2087
01:39:43,867 --> 01:39:45,100
of the joint meetings last spring.

2088
01:39:45,700 --> 01:39:47,467
But obviously that's a policy' decision.

2089
01:39:47,634 --> 01:39:48,634
It could go a different direction.

2090
01:39:51,433 --> 01:39:53,100
There certainly will be a lot more of a market

2091
01:39:53,166 --> 01:39:55,467
for student occupancy in ADUs for sure.

2092
01:39:56,166 --> 01:39:59,033
- There's also a shocking amount of people

2093
01:39:59,033 --> 01:40:02,100
that principally live here 12 months a year

2094
01:40:03,100 --> 01:40:04,333
than eight weekends a year.

2095
01:40:04,700 --> 01:40:06,000
They Airbnb their place.

2096
01:40:06,533 --> 01:40:08,433
And although I, I think you'd be shocked

2097
01:40:08,433 --> 01:40:10,367
how little disruption there is in these neighborhoods

2098
01:40:10,367 --> 01:40:12,367
because when it's a single family home

2099
01:40:12,367 --> 01:40:15,500
and it's a nice well-maintained home, they get a premium.

2100
01:40:16,367 --> 01:40:18,133
But there are also people that are then dumping

2101
01:40:18,133 --> 01:40:19,133
that money back into the community

2102
01:40:19,133 --> 01:40:20,133
and they're living here principally.

2103
01:40:20,133 --> 01:40:21,934
That's one thing a lot

2104
01:40:21,934 --> 01:40:23,834
of people do in a lot of people I know do.

2105
01:40:24,066 --> 01:40:25,100
And I think that we have

2106
01:40:25,100 --> 01:40:26,634
to be careful when we set these guidelines.

2107
01:40:26,867 --> 01:40:28,934
'cause that does impact people's ability to live here

2108
01:40:29,000 --> 01:40:32,100
and afford here and kind of make a life

2109
01:40:32,100 --> 01:40:34,000
and make impact in our community.

2110
01:40:35,900 --> 01:40:40,000
- I want to raise a question about the status of

2111
01:40:40,700 --> 01:40:45,166
a paper alley and access to these things.

2112
01:40:45,467 --> 01:40:47,934
I have a paper alley behind my house.

2113
01:40:48,634 --> 01:40:52,033
The, my, the area right around my house

2114
01:40:52,734 --> 01:40:54,767
has long and relatively

2115
01:40:54,900 --> 01:40:58,533
narrow lots.

2116
01:40:59,100 --> 01:41:03,300
And how would, if somebody wanted

2117
01:41:03,333 --> 01:41:06,033
to do an A DU attached

2118
01:41:06,233 --> 01:41:08,700
or detached, how's that gonna work

2119
01:41:09,100 --> 01:41:10,834
with a paper alley? Yeah,

2120
01:41:10,834 --> 01:41:14,100
- That's, we'd really need Terry to, to talk about that.

2121
01:41:14,166 --> 01:41:16,700
As far as what, what could a property error compel

2122
01:41:16,700 --> 01:41:17,734
as far as access goes?

2123
01:41:17,934 --> 01:41:21,000
I don't want to, that's not, that's a legal area

2124
01:41:21,033 --> 01:41:23,066
that I don't have experience with in terms of

2125
01:41:23,066 --> 01:41:24,634
what could be compelled for access.

2126
01:41:24,934 --> 01:41:26,033
So that's a question for him.

2127
01:41:28,700 --> 01:41:32,133
- By the way, a paper alley is an alley

2128
01:41:32,266 --> 01:41:34,867
that was plotted but never built.

2129
01:41:35,500 --> 01:41:36,834
And the one

2130
01:41:36,834 --> 01:41:41,834
behind my house is in my block.

2131
01:41:43,000 --> 01:41:46,000
There are some very big trees growing in that paper alley.

2132
01:41:46,867 --> 01:41:50,300
Basically the land belongs to no one,

2133
01:41:51,133 --> 01:41:55,166
although supposedly every resident along who

2134
01:41:55,266 --> 01:41:59,767
who has access to the paper alley is, is entitled

2135
01:42:00,066 --> 01:42:04,133
to access the back of their property using a vehicle.

2136
01:42:08,133 --> 01:42:10,500
- And I, I think I promised this before, we need to go back

2137
01:42:10,500 --> 01:42:12,634
and find the, when Terry came

2138
01:42:12,667 --> 01:42:14,867
and gave, I think he gave like an hour long

2139
01:42:14,867 --> 01:42:16,100
presentation on the topic.

2140
01:42:16,033 --> 01:42:18,000
So we will, we need to go find that recording

2141
01:42:18,000 --> 01:42:19,166
and get it back out to everybody.

2142
01:42:20,500 --> 01:42:20,867
- Okay.

2143
01:42:26,166 --> 01:42:27,166
Anyone else?

2144
01:42:30,300 --> 01:42:32,000
- All right. So what, what will process?

2145
01:42:32,066 --> 01:42:36,233
- I is did you have something else? Go ahead.

2146
01:42:43,467 --> 01:42:46,166
- Speaking as somebody who has a couple ADUs,

2147
01:42:48,033 --> 01:42:50,133
I think they all new ones should be built

2148
01:42:50,834 --> 01:42:53,133
and required to have air, air conditioning.

2149
01:42:55,033 --> 01:42:56,700
- Yeah, I don't think we can require that.

2150
01:42:57,000 --> 01:43:00,634
- Okay. You can try. I thought I'd bring it up.

2151
01:43:02,433 --> 01:43:04,934
The item about no residential units,

2152
01:43:07,000 --> 01:43:11,100
no residential units should be for the heat and the gas

2153
01:43:11,100 --> 01:43:13,767
and the sewer that made it look like it had

2154
01:43:13,767 --> 01:43:15,000
to be connected to the house.

2155
01:43:15,834 --> 01:43:17,266
- Yeah. So we have questions.

2156
01:43:17,266 --> 01:43:19,233
Steph has some questions about the wording of that.

2157
01:43:19,433 --> 01:43:21,066
I I know what they intended, which is

2158
01:43:21,900 --> 01:43:23,133
you've gotta be on sewer.

2159
01:43:23,367 --> 01:43:25,734
No. Yeah, so I, yes, there needs to be

2160
01:43:25,734 --> 01:43:26,734
- Some words there.

2161
01:43:26,734 --> 01:43:28,467
We're fine with that then. And I think there should be

2162
01:43:28,467 --> 01:43:31,867
a minimum square footage. Some of the

2163
01:43:32,000 --> 01:43:33,000
- Yeah, there would, sorry.

2164
01:43:33,000 --> 01:43:35,166
There would be, if so in order

2165
01:43:35,166 --> 01:43:37,934
to have it be occupiable from a building code standpoint,

2166
01:43:38,000 --> 01:43:40,033
you would need at least 70 square feet for the bedroom.

2167
01:43:40,066 --> 01:43:41,433
And I don't remember what the common area

2168
01:43:41,667 --> 01:43:42,934
is, but it's around a hundred.

2169
01:43:43,100 --> 01:43:45,266
So yeah, there are some minimums based on building code.

2170
01:43:45,867 --> 01:43:49,033
- I think we should also add, well I noticed some

2171
01:43:49,033 --> 01:43:52,533
of the studios in the high rises are 300 square feet

2172
01:43:53,033 --> 01:43:54,300
and that is the bare minimum

2173
01:43:54,300 --> 01:43:56,500
that I'd like wanna put anybody in.

2174
01:43:57,100 --> 01:43:59,367
So maybe increase it more than

2175
01:43:59,367 --> 01:44:00,367
- That.

2176
01:44:00,367 --> 01:44:00,700
I, I just wanna be hesitant

2177
01:44:00,700 --> 01:44:04,300
because we had a lawsuit with HUD based on our,

2178
01:44:04,433 --> 01:44:07,867
our occupancy limits were increased based above

2179
01:44:07,867 --> 01:44:09,066
what the building code requires

2180
01:44:09,333 --> 01:44:12,033
and we actually had to settle with HUD to reduce them.

2181
01:44:13,000 --> 01:44:14,834
So I didn't know that. Yeah.

2182
01:44:18,433 --> 01:44:21,734
- Okay. Anything else on this topic?

2183
01:44:24,266 --> 01:44:25,734
Hearing none, let's go on.

2184
01:44:26,367 --> 01:44:29,033
- Okay. Just to highlight what we, we're gonna want

2185
01:44:29,033 --> 01:44:30,300
to talk a little bit more about

2186
01:44:30,300 --> 01:44:31,367
some of the transitional areas.

2187
01:44:33,033 --> 01:44:35,033
We, again, we had a really good meeting with Susan.

2188
01:44:36,233 --> 01:44:39,100
So the, just trying to get an idea of

2189
01:44:39,100 --> 01:44:40,333
what the appropriate boundaries are

2190
01:44:40,500 --> 01:44:42,166
and then also some appropriate heights

2191
01:44:42,166 --> 01:44:44,000
and densities in those districts.

2192
01:44:44,000 --> 01:44:45,867
So I just wanted to point out a couple areas.

2193
01:44:47,533 --> 01:44:52,066
Again, making a suggestion to go to RO on the eastern part

2194
01:44:52,100 --> 01:44:54,900
of, you know, where Beaver turns into high

2195
01:44:55,300 --> 01:44:59,834
and then also over in the west where West End is

2196
01:45:00,233 --> 01:45:02,567
kind of looking at that as, you know, there's, we're,

2197
01:45:02,634 --> 01:45:06,133
Adrian is actually doing some renderings right now to try

2198
01:45:06,133 --> 01:45:08,300
to get an idea of what it would look like over there in

2199
01:45:08,300 --> 01:45:10,767
terms of the differences in height, going from nine stories

2200
01:45:11,000 --> 01:45:12,333
to six to two,

2201
01:45:13,333 --> 01:45:15,166
and just sort of give an idea of what that would look like.

2202
01:45:16,033 --> 01:45:18,066
And then also kind of highlighting the,

2203
01:45:18,500 --> 01:45:22,033
what planning staff always calls the Pugh spine in terms

2204
01:45:22,033 --> 01:45:25,033
of running from downtown down to easterly.

2205
01:45:25,667 --> 01:45:26,900
That's an area that's had a lot

2206
01:45:26,900 --> 01:45:29,066
of debate over the years about what's the appropriate level

2207
01:45:29,066 --> 01:45:31,066
of, of, of density and height.

2208
01:45:31,500 --> 01:45:33,133
So we wanted to bring that back up.

2209
01:45:33,133 --> 01:45:35,634
If there was any thoughts on, you know, we,

2210
01:45:35,634 --> 01:45:38,100
we looked at maybe converting that to R three instead

2211
01:45:38,100 --> 01:45:39,033
of R three H would,

2212
01:45:39,033 --> 01:45:40,767
which would allow three stories instead of two.

2213
01:45:41,767 --> 01:45:44,533
You have a lot of preexisting non-conforming apartment

2214
01:45:44,834 --> 01:45:46,533
buildings in that area right now, some

2215
01:45:46,533 --> 01:45:48,266
of which are 5, 6, 7 stories.

2216
01:45:49,467 --> 01:45:51,667
So looking at maybe going to R three

2217
01:45:52,533 --> 01:45:57,367
and also kind of the area that is south of OOCC and,

2218
01:45:57,433 --> 01:45:58,767
and the Baptist church.

2219
01:45:59,500 --> 01:46:00,867
As you get into Fairmount

2220
01:46:00,934 --> 01:46:05,066
and Prospect as you go down the hill, they're sort of

2221
01:46:05,066 --> 01:46:07,900
between Burroughs, Fraser and Alan.

2222
01:46:08,767 --> 01:46:10,734
That was another area that we had some discussions.

2223
01:46:11,000 --> 01:46:14,300
So we're not really necessarily prepared right now

2224
01:46:14,433 --> 01:46:15,433
to give any suggestions.

2225
01:46:15,433 --> 01:46:17,300
We wanted to flag it as something, we'd like

2226
01:46:17,300 --> 01:46:18,567
to talk a little bit more on the 14th.

2227
01:46:18,934 --> 01:46:21,567
So if anybody has opinions, thoughts, wants

2228
01:46:21,734 --> 01:46:25,166
to see specific changes, we we're wrestling with this

2229
01:46:25,266 --> 01:46:27,900
as a staff standpoint, so we'd love to get your input.

2230
01:46:30,934 --> 01:46:34,567
And Ron's asked me a couple times, what, what,

2231
01:46:34,634 --> 01:46:37,767
what are we gonna be preparing for you as far as

2232
01:46:38,233 --> 01:46:40,533
some recommendations to go to council?

2233
01:46:40,634 --> 01:46:43,667
What would that look like? So this is our first shot at it,

2234
01:46:44,000 --> 01:46:48,367
kind of a topic then to the status bar would be removed

2235
01:46:48,367 --> 01:46:52,033
because we'd hopefully be, we, we'd have got

2236
01:46:52,033 --> 01:46:53,467
through them all and gotten your input

2237
01:46:53,867 --> 01:46:55,033
and in some cases votes.

2238
01:46:55,867 --> 01:46:58,367
So what we are looking for is these would be specific

2239
01:46:58,367 --> 01:47:01,100
recommendations and we'd be putting in this kind of table.

2240
01:47:01,133 --> 01:47:05,066
So you'll see a more elaborate version of this on the 14th.

2241
01:47:05,433 --> 01:47:07,500
But this is kind of the way we're tackling it.

2242
01:47:07,700 --> 01:47:09,133
So does this make sense?

2243
01:47:09,834 --> 01:47:12,100
You know, anybody have any opinions, kind of

2244
01:47:12,367 --> 01:47:14,033
what we thought might be the easiest way.

2245
01:47:14,266 --> 01:47:16,467
And then as Ron kind of started today,

2246
01:47:16,900 --> 01:47:19,467
if there are specific motions that are needed to get votes,

2247
01:47:20,000 --> 01:47:22,033
we would kind of anticipate on the 14th

2248
01:47:22,834 --> 01:47:25,634
and the 21st, kind of going through this to make sure

2249
01:47:25,867 --> 01:47:27,000
that if there were areas

2250
01:47:27,000 --> 01:47:29,467
where there was differences opinion on planning commission,

2251
01:47:29,467 --> 01:47:31,266
that we would get some motions made

2252
01:47:31,266 --> 01:47:33,300
to finalize what would be recommended.

2253
01:47:33,500 --> 01:47:38,133
So how does that all sound? Good? All right.

2254
01:47:39,100 --> 01:47:43,066
All right. And then just for those following at home

2255
01:47:43,233 --> 01:47:46,333
and we're, we're getting to the end

2256
01:47:46,333 --> 01:47:48,100
of the planning permission process, I just wanted

2257
01:47:48,100 --> 01:47:50,100
to put this timeline back up in front of everybody.

2258
01:47:50,467 --> 01:47:52,133
You saw it at the beginning of the summer,

2259
01:47:53,100 --> 01:47:55,467
but as we get to recommendation, so we're at

2260
01:47:55,467 --> 01:47:57,567
that August 21 slot.

2261
01:47:57,734 --> 01:48:01,100
As far as PC making recommendation, this would go to,

2262
01:48:01,367 --> 01:48:03,700
this would then go to council on September 8th

2263
01:48:03,834 --> 01:48:05,667
and start a september october process.

2264
01:48:06,266 --> 01:48:09,900
We have pretty much a drop dead October 20 date for

2265
01:48:10,734 --> 01:48:12,000
when we would what?

2266
01:48:12,033 --> 01:48:14,867
When we would need counsel to tell staff exactly

2267
01:48:14,900 --> 01:48:16,700
what they do and do not want in the Ordinance,

2268
01:48:16,734 --> 01:48:20,433
if they wanted revisions, changes whether they agree

2269
01:48:20,433 --> 01:48:22,333
with pc, whether they disagree with PC

2270
01:48:22,533 --> 01:48:25,033
and what, you know, what what the, what do they want.

2271
01:48:25,500 --> 01:48:28,900
We then have, we'll transmit that to the consultant team.

2272
01:48:28,900 --> 01:48:31,000
They'll have about a month to make revisions

2273
01:48:31,567 --> 01:48:33,433
and then we have kind of a drop dead date

2274
01:48:33,500 --> 01:48:35,333
of sending this to review.

2275
01:48:35,333 --> 01:48:36,367
At Centre County Planning.

2276
01:48:36,367 --> 01:48:38,867
There's the statutory 45 day review that they have.

2277
01:48:40,033 --> 01:48:42,500
They have an MOU with Centre Region Planning.

2278
01:48:42,700 --> 01:48:45,000
So Centre Region Planning will also be doing their

2279
01:48:45,000 --> 01:48:46,734
review at the same time.

2280
01:48:47,000 --> 01:48:48,700
So that will happen throughout the holidays.

2281
01:48:49,066 --> 01:48:51,700
So Merry Christmas to that staff.

2282
01:48:52,467 --> 01:48:55,000
And then at the end of the day, we will hopefully have

2283
01:48:56,667 --> 01:48:58,634
something back from them in the middle of January

2284
01:48:59,467 --> 01:49:01,100
with a anticipated going

2285
01:49:01,100 --> 01:49:03,500
to Borough Council at the first meeting in February,

2286
01:49:03,500 --> 01:49:05,734
asking them to authorize the advertisement

2287
01:49:05,734 --> 01:49:08,133
for the Public Hearing, which will be March 2nd,

2288
01:49:08,233 --> 01:49:10,467
and then adoption at the end of March.

2289
01:49:11,266 --> 01:49:13,433
I'll also point out that there is a statutory requirement

2290
01:49:13,433 --> 01:49:15,667
for a Public Hearing for the planning agency

2291
01:49:16,033 --> 01:49:17,700
preparing the Ordinance.

2292
01:49:18,033 --> 01:49:20,567
So that's been advertised for August 21st.

2293
01:49:20,567 --> 01:49:22,266
So that'll meet the statutory requirement

2294
01:49:22,667 --> 01:49:25,166
that Planning commission has a Public Hearing.

2295
01:49:27,033 --> 01:49:28,467
So any questions on timeline?

2296
01:49:31,433 --> 01:49:34,734
- Just one question. Is there any chance that any

2297
01:49:34,734 --> 01:49:37,266
of this will come back to the Planning Commission

2298
01:49:37,433 --> 01:49:38,867
after August 21st?

2299
01:49:39,634 --> 01:49:41,734
- I mean, there's always a chance, but my understanding from

2300
01:49:41,734 --> 01:49:43,433
council is that once PC's done

2301
01:49:43,433 --> 01:49:45,033
with the recommendations, they're gonna take it from there.

2302
01:49:45,700 --> 01:49:49,767
So the statutory, the, the statute, the MPC requires

2303
01:49:50,333 --> 01:49:51,700
if there are substantial changes

2304
01:49:52,300 --> 01:49:54,033
after that advertisement of the hearing.

2305
01:49:54,500 --> 01:49:57,266
So when we get to that February 2nd meeting,

2306
01:49:58,133 --> 01:50:01,100
the anticipation is that we would have a final draft.

2307
01:50:02,066 --> 01:50:04,700
Counsel would authorize staff to advertise.

2308
01:50:05,133 --> 01:50:06,567
Once that advertisement happens,

2309
01:50:06,567 --> 01:50:08,133
there really can't be substantive changes.

2310
01:50:08,934 --> 01:50:10,100
So there's a Public Hearing.

2311
01:50:10,133 --> 01:50:12,100
Then on March 2nd, if council wants

2312
01:50:12,100 --> 01:50:15,066
to make substantive changes from there, the statute requires

2313
01:50:15,066 --> 01:50:17,467
that they would re advertise for a new Public Hearing.

2314
01:50:18,233 --> 01:50:21,100
So we could end up in a series of a, a number

2315
01:50:21,100 --> 01:50:23,367
of public hearings going through the spring

2316
01:50:23,433 --> 01:50:25,066
or summer, if that's what council wants.

2317
01:50:25,367 --> 01:50:27,266
There's no statutory requirement for them

2318
01:50:27,266 --> 01:50:28,734
to send it back to Planning Commission.

2319
01:50:30,333 --> 01:50:32,834
They could if they want it, but they're not required to.

2320
01:50:33,300 --> 01:50:36,834
- Okay. Okay.

2321
01:50:36,867 --> 01:50:40,500
Then it looks like we are onto official reports

2322
01:50:40,567 --> 01:50:43,000
and correspondence. Borough Counsel,

2323
01:50:43,133 --> 01:50:44,133
- Nothing from me.

2324
01:50:46,100 --> 01:50:50,100
- Zoning Hearing board, - Nothing Upcoming.

2325
01:50:51,533 --> 01:50:53,033
- Upcoming Land development plans,

2326
01:50:53,367 --> 01:50:54,367
- Nothing upcoming.

2327
01:50:55,667 --> 01:50:58,266
- Staff updates, - You're looking at it.

2328
01:51:01,667 --> 01:51:04,834
- Okay. Okay. Centre Region Planning Commission.

2329
01:51:07,333 --> 01:51:09,333
It's quiet Summer. Okay.

2330
01:51:10,000 --> 01:51:12,634
Upcoming meetings next Thursday,

2331
01:51:13,567 --> 01:51:16,533
Octo August 14th at 7:00 PM

2332
01:51:17,467 --> 01:51:21,066
and Thursday, August 21st at 7:00 PM

2333
01:51:22,033 --> 01:51:23,700
May I have a motion to Adjourn?

2334
01:51:23,734 --> 01:51:26,834
Motion to Adjourn Adjourned.

2335
01:51:57,033 --> 01:51:59,734
- Sponsorship for this program is brought to you in part

2336
01:51:59,834 --> 01:52:01,567
by Town and Gown Magazine.

2337
01:52:02,133 --> 01:52:03,834
If it's happening in Happy Valley,

2338
01:52:04,266 --> 01:52:05,867
it's in town and Gown magazine.

2339
01:52:07,266 --> 01:52:10,033
- Clearwater Conservancy has been committed to conserving

2340
01:52:10,033 --> 01:52:12,667
and restoring the natural resources of Centre County

2341
01:52:12,667 --> 01:52:14,533
and beyond for more than 40 years.

2342
01:52:16,033 --> 01:52:20,100
In 2022, we purchased 10 acres on Spring Creek in Hauser V.

2343
01:52:20,433 --> 01:52:21,934
We have a 20 year relationship

2344
01:52:21,934 --> 01:52:24,900
with this land having restored the Streamside forested

2345
01:52:24,900 --> 01:52:26,467
Buffer in 2004.

2346
01:52:27,533 --> 01:52:29,100
This property in the heart

2347
01:52:29,100 --> 01:52:31,133
of the Spring Creek watershed is the site

2348
01:52:31,133 --> 01:52:32,033
of our new permanent home

2349
01:52:32,166 --> 01:52:34,867
and our local conservation restoration

2350
01:52:35,033 --> 01:52:36,433
and education programs.

2351
01:52:36,900 --> 01:52:39,867
The public will be welcome to explore the stream, as well

2352
01:52:39,867 --> 01:52:41,000
as use the community meeting room

2353
01:52:41,066 --> 01:52:42,934
for partnerships and collaboration.

2354
01:52:43,667 --> 01:52:46,767
Clearwater's dedicated volunteers will see firsthand the

2355
01:52:47,033 --> 01:52:48,266
positive impact of their efforts.

2356
01:52:48,900 --> 01:52:50,066
Your support ensures

2357
01:52:50,066 --> 01:52:53,033
that our conservation work thrives protecting our natural

2358
01:52:53,266 --> 01:52:54,300
resources for everyone.

2359
01:52:55,367 --> 01:52:57,567
As an accredited land trust, we promise

2360
01:52:57,567 --> 01:52:59,133
that residents will enjoy clean water

2361
01:52:59,433 --> 01:53:01,867
and natural areas for many years to come.

2362
01:53:02,667 --> 01:53:05,100
Your support is essential in preserving our natural

2363
01:53:05,567 --> 01:53:07,233
resources for future generations.

2364
01:53:07,767 --> 01:53:10,266
Visit clearwater conservancy.org to learn

2365
01:53:10,266 --> 01:53:11,533
how you can get involved.