[0:00] - I'm gonna call the to order the
[0:04] September 14th meeting of the Town
[0:06] of Vail Planning Environmental Commission.
[0:09] We have five recording in progress. Thank you.
[0:12] We have, I'll say again.
[0:14] I'll call to order the September 14th meeting of the Town
[0:18] of Vail Planning Environmental Commission.
[0:20] We have five commissioners in the room present.
[0:25] The first item on our agenda, which I think everyone is here
[0:28] for today, is 3.1.
[0:30] Recommendation to the Vail Town Council pursuant
[0:33] to section 12 dash three dash seven Vail Town
[0:35] code prescribed regulations.
[0:38] Amendment to chapter six
[0:40] of Title 12 Vale Town code sections 12 dash six C dash eight
[0:45] A and 12 dash 68 a.
[0:47] Dwelling units PZC file 26 dash 21.
[0:51] The planner on the file is Heather.
[0:53] I believe we have Matt in the room as well.
[0:57] Matt, do you wanna present for the TA for as the applicant?
[0:59] - Heather, you want take? No,
[1:01] - I'm good.
[1:02] I'm gonna hand it off to Matt. Thank you.
[1:05] - Okay, thank you Mr. Chair.
[1:06] Members of the commission, I'd like to start off just
[1:11] by stating as a preface that we will request this item
[1:16] to be tabled and continue the public hearing
[1:19] to a date certain after we discuss this item.
[1:23] But I'd like to just jump right into the
[1:27] discrepancy and kind
[1:29] of the confusion we're trying to clear up.
[1:32] So as you can see up there on that very simple slide,
[1:37] as it's written today in the two family
[1:40] and two family primary secondary zone districts,
[1:44] you have a minimum lot site area of 15,000 square feet
[1:49] of buildable area
[1:51] with dimensional requirements added in there.
[1:55] I put in the definition of buildable area, you can see
[1:59] that up there any portion or lot
[2:03] or site which does not contain designated flood plain red
[2:06] hazard avalanche area, that's high avalanche danger
[2:10] and areas in excess of 40% slope.
[2:15] Then you get down to density control in both zone districts
[2:20] and you have a provision that says not more than a total
[2:24] of two dwelling units shall be permitted on any site
[2:29] with only one dwelling unit permitted on
[2:32] existing lots less than 14,000 square feet.
[2:35] And then you get into the exception,
[2:38] which really says properties that meet any of those three
[2:41] or all of those three conditions will be permitted a a total
[2:45] of two dwelling units on existing lots
[2:49] less than 14,000 square feet.
[2:52] So it does beg the question, what about those lots
[2:55] between 14,000 square feet
[2:57] and 14,999 square feet?
[3:02] There's a bit of a gap there.
[3:04] So what we were trying to do is clean it up, simplify it,
[3:08] make it actually understandable, not just
[3:11] for property owners, residents, builders, et cetera,
[3:14] but for staff legal counsel, everybody.
[3:17] 'cause this is is very confusing and understandably so.
[3:23] So I think the, the draft ordinance was really a,
[3:25] a first attempt at addressing this and simplifying it.
[3:30] I think the manner in which we simplified that,
[3:34] and I do mean the royal we collectively
[3:37] town staff legal counsel, some of the comments we heard is
[3:42] likely not the right direction
[3:44] because we just bump right up to 15,000 square feet
[3:48] and just make that the new standard.
[3:51] Taking out the exceptions and
[3:53] and changing that to that 15,000 as you can see
[3:57] in the proposed language on the screen.
[4:01] So this did stem from a lawsuit
[4:04] that the town was not a party to,
[4:07] but we were deposed as part of,
[4:10] and the attorney doing the deposition did point out kind of
[4:14] how confusing and sort of just ambiguous this language is.
[4:19] So again, I know Matt Muir, our town attorney's online.
[4:23] Matt, did you want to add anything to
[4:25] what I've just said there?
[4:27] - Yeah, yeah. And I, I came into this late, hi everyone.
[4:31] I think the ordinance maybe goes too far in trying
[4:34] to rectify this.
[4:36] The, the, the minimum size, a lot size requirement
[4:41] and then the amount of density controls.
[4:44] Again, I don't think it's understated
[4:46] that this came out of a deposition.
[4:48] The town wasn't a party
[4:50] and I did not, I did not do the deposition
[4:52] but I read the transcript at least a portion
[4:55] of the transcript that's relevant.
[4:57] And he was wondering how the density control, you know,
[5:00] coexisted with the lot size requirement.
[5:03] I look at it to say that if you're between 14,000
[5:07] and 15,000 of billable area,
[5:11] we lose billable area in the two sections.
[5:13] And I think we need to build that in.
[5:15] Secondly, I think that the question becomes what to do
[5:18] with current lots of between 14,015, let's say your
[5:23] existing lot was 14 five.
[5:27] I read it even though it's not very clear
[5:29] that you can have a a duplex.
[5:32] I'd like to hear what other people think of that.
[5:35] But I read it the current code
[5:36] as saying you could have a duplex
[5:38] and the code amendment would make you
[5:41] only have only the ability to have 1 1 1 dwelling unit.
[5:45] So I think that's the issue.
[5:47] I don't think I want you to carry this ordinance forward.
[5:50] It's, I became acquainted with it today.
[5:54] But I think,
[5:56] I think we take need to take another look at it.
[5:58] I'm not sure there's a conflict in the code.
[6:00] I definitely think there's an ambiguity.
[6:02] I think in the deposition it was read as a clear conflict
[6:05] and I think this ordinance maybe goes too far.
[6:09] If everyone agrees with my analysis that between 14
[6:13] and 15 today you could have two
[6:16] and this ordinance would reduce that to one.
[6:19] - Yeah, and I think that's really the most confusing aspect
[6:22] of it is that density control provision only applies
[6:26] to existing lots less than 14,000 square feet.
[6:30] And again, not buildable area
[6:33] but 14,000 square feet.
[6:35] So that's really just a brief kind of overview of this.
[6:40] We didn't want to get too far into the weeds
[6:42] and just to let you know, we recognize that this is probably
[6:46] not the best approach to fix this as it could result in
[6:51] people losing some potential density on their lots.
[6:55] And so we'd like to go back to the drawing board
[6:58] and rework this.
[6:59] We didn't wanna wait until the larger
[7:03] unified development code,
[7:04] the code rewrite effort is complete.
[7:06] That's gonna take a while. We are making good progress,
[7:09] but we'll see, you know, if we can come up with,
[7:14] with better language
[7:15] and more equitable approach to this, to this issue.
[7:19] - So I'm glad you brought that up.
[7:21] 'cause as written it seemed like it was pulling the rug out
[7:23] from the current.
[7:25] - Yeah, I think that was absolutely an oversight. And
[7:29] - Is there just, is the simple, if you want
[7:32] to address this due to this legal issue that arose,
[7:35] is there no reason to just simply make you know, 12 six
[7:41] C five with billable site area 14,000
[7:44] and we can be in line with both?
[7:46] - And that's actually a policy question.
[7:48] Thank you for raising it that we'd like
[7:50] to ask you. Is that Yeah,
[7:52] - I, I think I I think that that would fix it, you know,
[7:55] but at the same time I think I'd also like to hear,
[7:59] 'cause you know, as I read it,
[8:00] you can have two units on that lot.
[8:02] If it's between 14 and 15
[8:04] and if the planning commission's comfortable with that,
[8:07] then then we need to adjust that as well
[8:09] because that that's the section.
[8:13] Yeah, yeah. I think the, the change above would fix it.
[8:16] But I also want to build in buildable area
[8:20] and then clear that up on lots between the,
[8:24] the density control and, and the,
[8:27] and the site area of law itself.
[8:28] Because it, it seems to me,
[8:30] I don't think it's getting a conflict today.
[8:32] I think I talked to Dominique,
[8:33] he doesn't think it's a conflict either,
[8:35] but I think he would agree it, it's ambiguous.
[8:38] - So my understanding,
[8:39] at least hearing some context from the people around this is
[8:43] that the whole 14,000 square foot piece came up
[8:47] regarding a study done maybe 15 years ago
[8:50] or something like that, or that showed
[8:53] that there were quite a few lots in primary secondary
[8:56] that fell in that 14,000 to 15,000 square foot range.
[9:00] Are you familiar with that
[9:02] or kind of where that came out of?
[9:04] - I'm not, I know the last, there were two amendments.
[9:07] The one that actually changed the density control language
[9:11] and made it 14,000 was ordinance number six
[9:15] of 2000.
[9:17] So in the year 2000 prior to that it had always been 15.
[9:22] So again, I'm not sure that was, yeah, I think, I think,
[9:24] - Sorry go ahead.
[9:25] I think that was based on the study.
[9:27] I think it was before my time as well.
[9:29] It was chairman but I would say
[9:32] that my understanding it's based on the study
[9:34] and the town use consultants
[9:36] and they were a lot, they were, there were lots that were 14
[9:38] and that was the, the goal is to fix that.
[9:41] So this would be a departure from whatever
[9:44] that study kind of recommended.
[9:46] - Are you looking for direction from the commission today
[9:49] on, on that piece
[9:51] or you just kind of wanna reconsider those?
[9:54] - Yeah, I, you know, I do, I do know originally two family
[9:59] and two family primary, secondary were structured to,
[10:03] in some instances avoid overcrowding in neighborhoods
[10:08] that consist of mainly smaller lots.
[10:11] So again, it ties back to the non-conformity section
[10:15] as well, which is a whole nother can
[10:18] of worms we could open up and have fun with today.
[10:21] But you know, these lots, these structures are still subject
[10:25] to the non-conformity language of the code. Yep.
[10:28] - I, I, I think, I think we are looking Mr.
[10:30] Chairman in field direction and,
[10:31] and specifically what I'm looking for is whether you're,
[10:34] whether everyone's okay
[10:36] and currently if we read it as being, you know,
[10:39] even though it doesn't expressly say you can have two,
[10:41] two dwelling units on between 14 and 15.
[10:45] If that's the, if that's the goal, then we need to, yeah,
[10:48] I'd like your direction on whether the
[10:50] planning commissions comfortable recommending the maximum
[10:53] of two dwelling units on lots between 14 and 15
[10:56] and then one on lots less than 14
[11:01] - Unless an exception applies.
[11:03] Correct.
[11:06] - Okay. - Unless, unless yeah the exception applies
[11:09] but I think the exception, you know, we,
[11:11] we can fix that later.
[11:12] I think we, your direction on this
[11:14] will drive the rest of it.
[11:16] - Understood. Well I kind
[11:20] of jumped in there there other questions from
[11:22] commissioners for staff.
[11:24] - I guess - If, if we're under 14
[11:28] and somebody wants to build a one bedroom accessory dwelling
[11:31] unit, yes or no.
[11:34] - If it is a deed restricted,
[11:37] I can't tell you which type EHU.
[11:40] Yes. 'cause it would not affect density
[11:44] if not deed restricted then
[11:46] - It wouldn't be.
[11:47] Yeah. Right. So I mean
[11:51] is the whole decision here, I mean
[11:55] when I read it I interpreted it was
[11:57] that 15 was gonna be the mark
[12:00] but now you guys are saying
[12:03] we're we're saying 14. 14 and
[12:06] - Yeah I've given the number of lots, a lot of 14
[12:09] that are just under 15,000 in many cases
[12:12] and somewhere between 14
[12:14] and 15, you know, it's ambiguous what they get.
[12:18] Right. 'cause density control does not apply to them.
[12:21] So you assume as our attorney just said
[12:24] that they would be allowed a duplex
[12:26] 'cause it's not addressed in in those two provisions
[12:30] for that zone district. So
[12:33] - I mean if I was a lot owner and I fell between 14
[12:36] and 15, I would feel the town
[12:38] with this proposal was taking away a lot of value
[12:42] from my underlying property.
[12:44] - Yes. Agreed. Yes. And we acknowledge that.
[12:48] Which is why we preempted this with a request for a tabling.
[12:57] - Are there other questions from commissioners for staff?
[13:04] Alright, hearing none.
[13:05] I guess that took care of applicant and staff presentation.
[13:08] So we will open up to public comment.
[13:10] Just you are aware,
[13:11] it sounds like we are not gonna take
[13:13] action on this item today.
[13:14] We'll go back to staff for some rework.
[13:17] You're here, we'd still like to hear your comments
[13:19] so we'll open up to public comment if you'd like
[13:22] to come forward and speak, please state your name
[13:24] for the record and then we can hear what you have to say.
[13:28] You can come forward to one of these microphones here
[13:30] at the, at the table?
[13:31] Yep.
[13:33] - I'll start out. 'cause I used to be where you are.
[13:38] Hi, my name's Susan Bird and I live in Westvale
[13:42] and I bought my house back in 1986
[13:46] and at that time it was in Eagle County.
[13:49] It was zoned primary, secondary.
[13:53] The lot was well is like
[13:56] 9,200 square feet.
[14:00] Does this new zoning, would that take away my right if
[14:04] that house was torn down
[14:06] that I couldn't recreate a primary secondary?
[14:08] Is that what you guys are going for
[14:10] or am I misunderstanding?
[14:12] - So we can't get into a Q and A with public comment
[14:14] but we can, after public comment is done,
[14:17] we can maybe refer some of those questions to,
[14:18] to staff. So, and
[14:20] - We're not going for anything.
[14:21] Staff is bringing this board.
[14:23] - We're voting. Oh, staff - Is. We're voting on this. Yeah.
[14:26] - Oh - You can't lump us in with them.
[14:28] - Oh. So once staff figures out the upper portion
[14:33] then the lower portion will be dealt with at a later time.
[14:38] - It sounds like they might be considering
[14:40] together, but yeah.
[14:42] - Okay. So next meeting then I
[14:45] shouldn't even come over here.
[14:46] I'm going home. Thank you.
[14:49] - And actually just to reconfirm,
[14:50] this would be Reno, correct?
[14:52] With changes or,
[14:53] - Oh yeah, that would be good - Actually.
[14:57] Great question. Hi. Hi.
[15:01] We did send out I think about 1600 mailings.
[15:05] It's required mailed notice.
[15:07] That's why we, when we request a tabling of the item
[15:10] and a continuance of the public hearing, we will do it
[15:13] to a date certain with the hope that everybody hears
[15:16] that date and understands that that covers the notice.
[15:20] - So for everyone here when we continue this, the date
[15:22] of the meeting will be noted.
[15:24] Please write down that date if you'd like to
[15:26] and you can keep an eye on the agenda for that meeting
[15:29] and you'll see the proposed notice for that meeting. For
[15:32] - That meeting.
[15:33] And for all we know we might request a tabling again. So.
[15:36] - Okay. Thank you. Are you tabling?
[15:38] 'cause you're short-staffed?
[15:40] - I, I think we're tabling it
[15:41] because we've realized, you know,
[15:44] after going through this a number of times
[15:46] that this was just too broad of a brush stroke
[15:49] to try to fix something.
[15:50] That's it.
[15:51] It was a little oversimplified and,
[15:53] and affects too many people. So
[15:55] - Great.
[15:56] Thanks. Yep. Thank you. I,
[15:58] - I'll go back in your - Audience.
[15:59] Thanks Matt.
[16:07] - Hi Diane Boyer, owner of 8 0 4 lot 8 0 4
[16:12] and 8 0 6 potato patch drive
[16:15] and I have a home on lot 8 0 4
[16:19] and 8 0 6 is probably one of the only undeveloped
[16:24] lots in the Town of Vail that this, well there's a few,
[16:28] literally handful of others.
[16:30] And so we've owned those lots since 1978
[16:36] And I know things have changed over the years
[16:39] but I've been paying taxes on lot 8 0 6,
[16:44] the undeveloped lot as a primary secondary
[16:48] or a duplex lot for all of those years.
[16:51] And I would expect that
[16:54] whatever changes are made in the code, that
[16:57] my lot would be grandfathered in so that if I were
[17:01] to sell my lot I could still sell it
[17:04] as I own it currently. Thank you.
[17:07] - Thank you.
[17:17] Hello Dominic Ello, my in-laws happened to own a house
[17:21] that's between fif 14 and 15,000 square feet.
[17:25] But I thought it would give you a little bit of background.
[17:28] I was here and I, Alison Kent who's here was also on staff
[17:31] at the time we worked on, I worked on this amendment
[17:35] that was done in 2000, which took the maximum size
[17:40] that would allow you to have two units down to 14,000.
[17:44] And what was done at the time, it was part
[17:46] of actually an employee housing discussion.
[17:49] We looked at how many lots there were going down
[17:52] to like 8,000 square feet and you,
[17:55] and so we had kind of come up with this range
[17:57] and I think at the time we were recommending
[17:59] that they drop the minimum lot size to like 12 or 13.
[18:03] 'cause that kind of captured a lot of the lots there.
[18:06] I I think there was a recognition
[18:08] that when all those properties were annexed into the town,
[18:11] they were immediately down zoned.
[18:13] You know, they were all made nonconforming when,
[18:15] when they were annexed.
[18:16] And I'm always kind of surprised
[18:18] that people just let that happen.
[18:20] I know there was a little bit of an uproar when there was a
[18:22] westville annexation,
[18:24] but I was always kind of surprised
[18:26] that people over 50 years didn't, you know, kind
[18:30] of raise their hand and go, why did we accept this?
[18:33] But just regarding that,
[18:36] so we went through this whole analysis.
[18:38] The planning commission at the time I remember was felt safe
[18:42] with 14,000.
[18:43] They didn't want to open it up
[18:45] and allow too many lots to come into that
[18:47] because the theory was you might lose then deed restricted
[18:52] housing because you could do a primary
[18:54] and then you could do the second one
[18:56] as a type one employee housing unit.
[18:58] But nobody was really doing that at the time.
[19:01] Nobody was building the secondary unit
[19:04] as a deed restricted unit in that zone district.
[19:06] And so we were just looking at what was the,
[19:09] what was the right, you know, limit.
[19:11] And so they picked 14,000
[19:13] and so it's been 26 years that 14,000 square feet was the,
[19:17] was the cutoff between a duplex and a single family.
[19:24] Yeah, so, so that, that's what went on at the time.
[19:27] There was a discussion about changing the 15,000
[19:29] square foot minimum lot size.
[19:31] But there was a concern that, oh if I'm coming in
[19:33] with a new subdivision, we still want those lots
[19:36] to be 15,000 square feet.
[19:37] They didn't feel comfortable changing the minimum lot size
[19:40] for new subdivisions.
[19:42] So that's why you see the difference.
[19:43] It doesn't really matter that there's a difference
[19:46] between the 15,000 and the 14,000.
[19:48] The 14 is really just discussing the, the, the divide
[19:53] between one unit and two unit.
[19:54] The 15,000 is just saying that's
[19:57] what a normal conforming lot is.
[20:00] So any of the lots
[20:02] that are less than 15,000 square feet today are still
[20:04] non-conforming lots.
[20:05] But they're not non-conforming if they're over 14,000 square
[20:09] feet and they have a duplex,
[20:11] they're not non-conforming with respect to density.
[20:14] So I had some discussions with both mats
[20:17] and I think that everybody's kind of on the same page
[20:20] as going back and taking another look at it.
[20:23] And hopefully, you know, all of the other exception criteria
[20:26] that are there will stay in there as well.
[20:29] 'cause I think that was done in I think 2016 maybe to try
[20:33] to make it a little bit more understandable
[20:36] of when you can tear down an existing house and
[20:39] and rebuild it back as a duplex.
[20:43] So that's all I have. Thank you. Thank you.
[20:54] - Hi, I am Charlin Canada
[20:56] and I was wondering about the procedure of this
[21:00] possible zoning change with the
[21:03] recommendation from the staff.
[21:05] This board will make the decision
[21:08] or does it go eventually to the Town Council?
[21:10] - It has to go to council, has to go.
[21:12] This is a recommendation from the planning
[21:14] commission to the Town Council.
[21:16] - Okay, thank you. And then I wondered if I can see
[21:19] that if somebody voluntarily takes down,
[21:22] they'll own both sides of the duplex.
[21:24] That it could be restricted to a single family
[21:29] with a new construction.
[21:30] Correct.
[21:32] - We're not gonna answer questions. Theron Gore.
[21:34] The public comment is for the public. Provide comments now?
[21:37] Yeah, if you raise a question we're gonna come back.
[21:40] You're gonna come back to us?
[21:41] Yeah, I'm And we'll, we'll ask staff.
[21:43] - I heard that but I didn't know
[21:44] that my question qualified for
[21:46] - It's all good.
[21:47] - Maybe this is the same thing but I guess, okay.
[21:51] Yes it is. I'll, I'll
[21:53] - You can ask a question and we
[21:55] - A question.
[21:56] - Well I was thinking, - You know, I
[21:57] - Was saying like voluntary versus a wildfire going through
[22:00] that you would be allowed to build what,
[22:02] rebuild what you had.
[22:04] But maybe that's the same thing.
[22:05] - Noted. Yeah, thank you. - Okay, thank you
[22:18] Pam Denmark and I have a question that's only semi-related
[22:21] to this issue and that my question is about notice of the,
[22:26] this issue and in our neighborhood I wouldn't have known
[22:29] about it had Charla not sent out a message to us
[22:33] that there was something coming up that is effective.
[22:35] I live in multi-family zoning and so,
[22:39] but if, if there's a lot next to me that's going
[22:43] to be redeveloped, I would be affected.
[22:46] So I'm asking how you notify people
[22:49] and why I was omitted when I lived practically across the
[22:53] street from Charlin
[22:55] and I did check around with our neighbors
[22:57] and nobody in our multifamily received notice
[23:00] of the media or of the issue.
[23:03] - Understood. Thank you.
[23:14] Is there anyone else in the
[23:15] audience I forgot to mention?
[23:20] I dunno if we have anyone online too,
[23:21] but if you're online you can raise your hand
[23:23] and we'll promote you when we're finished
[23:24] with commentary in the audience.
[23:26] Yep.
[23:28] - Hello, my name's Jack Bergey.
[23:29] I own a lot in some lots in Westvale
[23:33] and I became intimately involved with this little section
[23:37] of the code five years ago when I applied to
[23:42] tear down my place and build a, build a duplex
[23:46] and my que, that's not a question.
[23:49] My issues with the, the exceptions
[23:52] and how we mentioned everyone was talking about the 14
[23:54] or 15,000 square square feet.
[23:56] But on the exception part, it's still as clear as mud
[24:00] because when I applied to build a duplex on my small lot,
[24:04] the exception was that you had
[24:06] to have two units on it prior.
[24:08] So I met all the exceptions
[24:10] but at that time staff thought I didn't meet the exception
[24:14] because I had three units on my lot and not two.
[24:19] So I had to pay 2,500 bucks to an attorney
[24:22] to say plain language is would breed two or more.
[24:26] So I think that needs to be stated in there two or more.
[24:30] I don't know what the intent was. Did you even look at that?
[24:33] Is there an intent not to let someone
[24:35] who had three units on there make them build one as opposed
[24:38] to someone who had two units on there?
[24:40] They can build two. I don't know if you just overlooked that
[24:43] or if there's any sort of reasoning
[24:48] what you're trying to accomplish by not allowing someone
[24:50] who had three units to build two units
[24:54] and make enforcing them to build one unit.
[24:57] Especially when I just heard comment saying that the, some
[25:01] of the intent was to avoid some overcrowding on these
[25:05] smaller lots.
[25:06] So if you had three or four units on a tiny lot
[25:09] and you wanted to tear it down,
[25:12] building two units would be less crowded than four units.
[25:17] So yeah, I'm just wondering why that, why
[25:19] that wasn't clarified and I feel it should be
[25:21] clarified to two or more units.
[25:23] I think that would be, you know,
[25:25] just add two words in there would make it pretty
[25:27] clear. Thank
[25:29] - You.Thank you.
[25:35] Is there anyone else in the room
[25:36] who would like to provide public comment?
[25:41] If not, we'll go online. Are there any hands raised online?
[25:46] No hands are raised. Okay. With none raised.
[25:49] We will close public comment.
[25:54] Matt, there were some questions during public comment.
[25:58] Maybe we could discuss them quickly if that works for you.
[26:02] - Absolutely. Sure.
[26:04] - So could you talk about redevelopment and what occurs
[26:08] and how that applies if you know existing property is say
[26:13] demoed and rebuilt with this code section?
[26:15] Yeah, yeah.
[26:17] - This again, I think Jack was correct.
[26:22] It's clear as mud.
[26:25] So two family and two family. Primary, secondary.
[26:28] Your uses by right
[26:30] or permitted uses are single family residents
[26:34] or duplex residents.
[26:37] Obviously with that annexation that occurred
[26:40] after being developed under Eagle County zoning,
[26:45] many many properties were rendered non-conforming.
[26:48] Right? So preexisting legal, non-conforming structures
[26:52] and lots of record exist throughout these zone districts.
[26:57] In the case of a, let's say it's a fourplex
[27:01] and somebody wants to demo it
[27:03] and rebuild something else, they, depending on
[27:07] where they fall with, with that language
[27:09] and density control, including the exceptions,
[27:12] would be limited to a maximum of two units.
[27:15] Unless, let's let's add a little more complexity.
[27:19] They decide to take advantage
[27:21] of the westvale multifamily zoning overlay district,
[27:25] which they can apply to their property
[27:29] and with the provisions of, of
[27:32] that overlay district build more density
[27:36] the way it's written today.
[27:37] So I'm not sure if everybody followed all the way through
[27:41] that, but that, that's how that works.
[27:44] Okay. So if you, you know, depending on your lot size,
[27:47] depending on you know, what you're tearing down
[27:49] and what you want to rebuild, again, it, the intent
[27:52] of those two zone districts is for single family
[27:55] and duplexes to be built on those lots.
[27:58] Understood. However, recognizing the importance
[28:01] of keeping a certain number of units in,
[28:04] in neighborhoods like Westvale, that's why we developed the,
[28:08] the west, the westvale multifamily overlay. Yeah.
[28:12] - And I thought I was actually a curious question.
[28:14] The code doesn't distinguish between casualty
[28:17] and redevelopment, right?
[28:18] Say if a, a property is lost through an incident,
[28:21] - It is covered in the non-conformity
[28:24] and the, I think Heather just pulled it right up on,
[28:26] pulled on cue restoration.
[28:29] I think it's a force majeure act of God, a fire.
[28:34] - So yeah, it can be restored exactly
[28:37] the way that it is today.
[28:38] - Right. Okay. So if a property is lost due to casualty
[28:41] as opposed to redevelopment, it can be restored
[28:43] to its previous state?
[28:45] Yes. Yes. Even if
[28:46] that's non nonconforming to the code. Yeah,
[28:48] - Same units. Very
[28:49] - Helpful.
[28:50] When it's restored, it's re restored to the dimensions
[28:55] and number of structures
[28:56] that were on the property at the time.
[28:58] That's correct. Yeah. Or the casualty's
[28:59] - Number of units.
[29:00] - Yeah, it just would need to have
[29:03] the current building codes.
[29:04] So it's up to code
[29:06] but as far as the size dimensions, number of units, all
[29:09] of those things, it can be in, it's in
[29:12] that non-conforming section of our code. So.
[29:15] - Okay. And regarding noticing, my understanding is
[29:17] that this was noticed to all owners of primary secondary
[29:22] - Lots.
[29:23] This was, this was noticed to all property owners
[29:25] who own property in the two family
[29:27] and two family primary secondary zone districts.
[29:30] - Okay. Throughout the town. Correct.
[29:32] How many notices went out
[29:34] - Between 15 and 1600 ish?
[29:37] About 1500. About 1500
[29:41] - And quite a few.
[29:42] And for clarity for the public, those notices go
[29:44] to whatever address you have registered
[29:47] with the Eagle County assessor.
[29:48] So whatever address is linked
[29:50] to your property ownership record with the assessor,
[29:53] that is where the notice goes.
[29:55] Correct. Regarding other ways of noticing,
[30:00] you know, the only other way would be to follow the agendas
[30:04] that are published the week
[30:05] before planning commissions
[30:07] to keep an eye on items, you know?
[30:08] That's correct.
[30:12] - And we are, you know, again, as part of the,
[30:14] the overall code rewrite, looking at other methods
[30:18] of public notice that might be more effective.
[30:21] - Yeah. And I assume it's just not feasible to notice
[30:24] every single owner adjacent to every property
[30:29] that that's not in that zone district.
[30:32] Correct?
[30:33] - I it's feasible.
[30:34] It's very time consuming resource intensive,
[30:39] but it's doable.
[30:40] Okay. We outsourced this one so that we could have a,
[30:44] a company who does this. So
[30:46] - You brought in a third party to notice it. So we
[30:48] - Brought a third party and we gave them the full mailing
[30:50] list that we generate through GIS and,
[30:54] - And I do want to note that the assessor
[30:56] record address is important.
[30:58] 'cause sometimes when people state they didn't receive it,
[31:00] potentially they have an old address that's linked
[31:02] to their assessor record and that that's
[31:04] where it goes legally per those statutes. Yep.
[31:08] - And again, we're, we're only required to make sure
[31:12] that goes through the US Postal Service.
[31:16] We can't control what they do after they get it,
[31:18] but yes, you're correct. It goes
[31:20] - To the address.
[31:21] So if there's an address address on record,
[31:22] so if there's an address listed as a
[31:24] property ownership record that doesn't receive
[31:25] USPS, it would not get there. Correct.
[31:28] - Yeah. - Okay.
[31:31] - I think when, when you guys come back
[31:33] with a vised language in regard to these ordinances, part
[31:37] of I think what was mentioned maybe by Mr.
[31:40] Meir was potentially harmonizing language
[31:44] between the two provisions that were,
[31:46] we're looking at up here or the three provisions
[31:49] or provisions with the lot area and site dimensions.
[31:52] And then you have density control when you have
[31:55] buildable site area for, for lot dimensions.
[31:59] That's a lot different seems to me than,
[32:02] than the square foot reference in density control.
[32:06] So it might be problematic if you bring building site area
[32:11] into the density control provision is you might at least,
[32:16] - Yeah, it's something we absolutely have
[32:18] to look at is do we, I I think we need
[32:21] to be consistent either way.
[32:23] So it's either 15,000 square foot site or lot area
[32:27] or it's 15,000 square feet
[32:29] of buildable area contained within that lot
[32:31] as it's written now and then translating
[32:34] and transferring that down to the density control.
[32:37] Is it 14,000, less than 14,000 square feet
[32:42] of of buildable area?
[32:44] We assume that's what it is, but it conflicts
[32:49] - And it, and so it, and aside from the 14,000 square feet
[32:54] and the 15,000 square feet
[32:55] and these two provisions, that isn't necessarily convicting,
[32:59] but it, it is not harmonized.
[33:02] But when I look at the exceptions
[33:04] as they're currently written, it, it does, you know,
[33:08] aside from the 14, 15,000 foot issue, what's wrong
[33:12] with one A, B and C having those exceptions
[33:17] or exceptions similar to them updated
[33:20] 'cause those, those were struck right.
[33:22] And, and, and replaced by language that is somewhat similar
[33:26] but maybe even more stringent than what, than what we,
[33:30] we've been allowing for the last 10 years.
[33:33] - Yeah, I I think we agree with that
[33:36] and that's, that's why we, we are here
[33:38] before you with the tabling request.
[33:41] You know, I'm not sure about April 1st, 2016, you know,
[33:47] why that date was chosen. It's
[33:50] - Probably when it was adopted.
[33:51] - Yeah. I I believe that's that second Yeah.
[33:54] Amendment after the one from 2000.
[33:58] But again, you know, it,
[34:00] it does seem somewhat arbitrary. Okay.
[34:03] - Do you, there was public comment that talked about,
[34:06] say you dropped it below the 14,000 there
[34:11] concerned about losing eh
[34:16] u or affordable housing units if there's redeveloped.
[34:18] Is that still a concern or not really with the development
[34:20] that's gone on since that time? That's
[34:22] - A great question.
[34:23] I think that's a, a question more for the council level,
[34:27] but I believe given the amount of new
[34:32] dedicated employee housing
[34:34] that's currently under construction and,
[34:36] and already has been constructed, yeah we are
[34:40] catching way up from where we were even in 2016.
[34:44] - 'cause the, the subdivision piece of it is less
[34:47] of concern right.
[34:48] To me, 26 years down the line. Yeah.
[34:51] There's not a whole heck of a lot left to no be subdivided.
[34:56] No, I, as part of, part of what I'm thinking is, you know,
[34:58] do you go to 14, do you drag up that study
[35:01] that was mentioned and see what the distribution
[35:04] of lot size is out there and Yeah.
[35:07] Try to capture more with a lower, you know,
[35:10] square foot of buildable site area.
[35:12] Yeah, yeah.
[35:14] You know, in his 14, you know, as opposed
[35:16] to being arbitrary at 14, make an educated decision if
[35:19] that data still exists from that study
[35:21] that was done. So Yeah,
[35:23] - No that's a, that's a great suggestion and I agree.
[35:26] I think we should, we should do this in a more scientific
[35:29] way and, and look at, you know, the average lot size
[35:33] and kind of where the outliers are.
[35:36] But I also think, again, given
[35:39] that these were annexed in largely
[35:41] after development, that zoning was applied somewhat
[35:48] just haphazardly if I may not, not not trying to
[35:53] denigrate any previous planner or staffer,
[35:56] but yeah,
[35:59] it just instantly rendered all those properties
[36:01] non-conforming, so.
[36:03] - Understood. Okay.
[36:06] - And there, there was a study done
[36:08] for the westvale overlay district similar to this, correct?
[36:11] Yes. And that's how that came to be
[36:14] to provide some incentives for development, including
[36:19] the employee housing piece.
[36:20] Right. And that was an, an important conversation I remember
[36:23] with the westvale overlay district was
[36:25] to not lose those employee housing units.
[36:27] So providing incentives for those smaller lots to redevelop.
[36:31] - So that study could be a
[36:33] good reference point right. As you
[36:34] - Look at it for westvale. Yeah. Yeah.
[36:36] - I guess that's not the only - Exactly. Unfortunately.
[36:41] - I mean this, I wanna be really careful
[36:43] that this isn't a criticism, it's just an observation.
[36:47] But I'm kind of surprised that this got presented to us
[36:51] with a staff recommendation for approval
[36:55] and really good discussion today.
[36:57] Great public input, but we weren't ready.
[37:03] - I I will take full responsibility for that.
[37:05] I don't think we were ready and I'm,
[37:08] - And I'm kind of guessing you're not
[37:09] gonna be back in two weeks. It's
[37:11] - Oh heck no.
[37:12] Yeah. Heck no. So we'd be looking more
[37:15] second meeting in October I'd say at the earliest.
[37:18] And I hope Mr. Me's still on
[37:21] since we will have him closely involved in this. Yeah,
[37:25] - I'm still on And I think that's good feedback.
[37:29] I think why Matt went forward with this without was
[37:32] because of the $1,500, 1500 postcards he had to send out
[37:36] and we wanted to carry that forward knowing that we, we,
[37:40] we hit hit a wall here even a week ago.
[37:44] We didn't want to have to re-notice this.
[37:46] I know that's expensive but that was good feedback.
[37:50] Dominic's comments were really insightful.
[37:52] That's gonna help. I think what we want
[37:55] to do at the very least is just bring you the same thing
[37:57] back with less ambiguity
[37:59] and right now that's not what's in front of you.
[38:01] So yeah, gimme some time on this one
[38:04] and we'll get it back to you.
[38:07] - There's no final questions from commissioners.
[38:12] - When is, - Sorry, go ahead. I do have a question.
[38:15] Yep, sure. Does anybody
[38:16] - Know the approximate cost of noticing this the first time?
[38:20] - I believe Hannah Whit,
[38:23] our operations manager would know that
[38:29] - Okay, - I saved money.
[38:30] Hannah Whitten operations saved money compared
[38:33] to normal note noticing.
[38:34] 'cause normally we do paper envelope label
[38:38] and this one was under a dollar per postcard
[38:41] that you all received. So,
[38:43] - So maybe 1400 bucks.
[38:45] Yeah, exactly. Okay.
[38:49] - But I found a way - Thank you.
[38:51] - And it did save on staff time so that Yes
[38:53] that was a a good, we're gonna use this.
[38:55] I think that's great moving forward I believe.
[39:00] - And if and if you want it notice again,
[39:02] we can notice again in which case we'd we'd prefer to
[39:06] with withdraw the application and reapply.
[39:12] - I don't know that Heather, I have a procedural question.
[39:15] In October, our meeting dates
[39:18] would be the 12th and the 26th.
[39:21] But the 12th is Columbus day.
[39:22] Are we meeting on Columbus Day?
[39:24] - We do believe meet on Columbus Day. I don't remember.
[39:28] The offices are open, town offices are
[39:30] - Open. We don't observe.
[39:31] - Yeah. Might not even be referred
[39:33] to Columbus Day in this state anymore. That's right.
[39:35] - It is - Columbus. Stay on my calendar. So Indigenous
[39:38] - Discovery Day. Discovery day,
[39:40] - Indigenous person day.
[39:43] So would you guys be looking for the 12th or the 26th? I
[39:46] - Think the 26th would be more realistic.
[39:49] Okay. And again,
[39:51] - Alright well if there's nothing
[39:53] - We'll try to have a much tighter cleaner.
[39:55] - Commissioner Brown, were you going down the line
[39:58] of erring towards re noticing or
[40:01] - I regret to say that I am considering
[40:04] - Moving - In favor of,
[40:05] - I support that re - To noticing
[40:07] - It's an important decision.
[40:09] It affects an as as the
[40:11] - Postcards demonstrate some, well we've already already
[40:12] generated that mailing list so that,
[40:14] I don't think it would be a huge lift for us.
[40:16] - I don't wanna be disrespectful of the additional work
[40:18] that it requires, but I think it's an important issue.
[40:20] And I think based on what I'm hearing today, the present,
[40:25] the item being presented could change an
[40:27] awful lot between now and then.
[40:29] - Yes, a hundred percent.
[40:33] - So that's my thought. Okay.
[40:35] - Are there any further questions for commissioners?
[40:38] - No. - If there are none, we'll move
[40:40] to final commissioner comment.
[40:42] I'll just open it up if anyone has final commentary
[40:45] before we continue this.
[40:49] - Sir, are we continuing or withdrawing?
[40:51] - Oh, - Well Mr. Mary is still online.
[40:56] - I'm counting two to withdraw so far.
[40:58] So if there's one more then we'll just have Matt withdraw.
[41:00] We don't need to continue. It might
[41:03] - Be cleaner commissioner - Or you can continue
[41:05] - It Jensen and Meg,
[41:06] - You can just continue it now
[41:08] and withdraw the application or anything. Correct. Without
[41:10] - It.
[41:11] Which is likely, depending on how much
[41:13] that public notice changes.
[41:15] 'cause that's an important part.
[41:17] The content, it will be worded differently. So
[41:22] - I mean - I would, we would likely do that.
[41:24] - I hate to say I, I would lean towards
[41:26] re noticing outta respect to the public. So
[41:28] - I I - Agree.
[41:29] You know, we, everyone came here today.
[41:31] There's no decision made today. We didn't act on it. Yep.
[41:34] So to make sure people are in the loop, I would say we do.
[41:36] That's my gut for that, that amount of money.
[41:38] It's, it's, it's a large change. Yes.
[41:41] - I think, I think we can do that. Mm.
[41:44] - Yeah and I appreciate the comments today.
[41:46] Thanks for Dominic for coming up.
[41:47] And I think Bill and John definitely your comments help.
[41:52] Yeah, I think the reason Matt wanted to bring it forward
[41:54] to get the comments knowing
[41:55] that we had this thing not quite right so that,
[41:58] that's helpful in drafting.
[41:59] - So would you prefer that we continue
[42:01] and then you can choose to withdraw if,
[42:03] if so, yes. Yes. Okay.
[42:04] - That would be the preference.
[42:06] - Continuing or tabling? We
[42:08] - Continue, I were to table the item
[42:09] and continue the public hearing until October 26th.
[42:14] - All right. If there's no, nothing else
[42:16] further from commissioners.
[42:17] Mr. Chairman, I move that we table agenda item 3.1
[42:22] to our next,
[42:23] our regularly scheduled meeting on October 26th, 2026.
[42:28] - There's a motion to continue or table. Is there a second?
[42:31] Second. There's a second. All in favor please say aye. Aye.
[42:35] Aye. All opposed. Hearing none. That passes unanimously.
[42:40] I would also like to note that I think
[42:41] believe we have CJ on line now.
[42:42] So that was six votes in favor. Thank
[42:46] - You.
[42:47] And thank you for your time and consideration
[42:48] and thanks to the public
[42:50] for providing feedback. We appreciate
[42:52] - It. Thank you everyone. Thank you.
[42:53] - Thank you. - So
[42:56] that's the only item on our main agenda for today.
[43:00] The next item is approval
[43:02] of the minutes from the August 24th meeting.
[43:05] Is there a motion to approve?
[43:06] - Mr. Chairman? I move
[43:08] that we approve the minutes from our regularly scheduled
[43:11] meeting on August 24th, 2026.
[43:13] - There's a motion to approve. Is there a second? Second.
[43:17] There's a second. All in favor, please say aye. Aye.
[43:21] All opposed? It carries unanimously.
[43:25] And the final item on our agenda's information update on
[43:29] arrive a it's agenda item 5.1.
[43:33] Heather, I'll be kicking this over. Tom. I am. Okay.
[43:37] - I have an easy job today.
[43:42] Thank you very much. Council members.
[43:44] Commissioner members, we are here today to present
[43:49] to you a Ride Vail.
[43:50] It's the Vail Transportation Center expansion project.
[43:53] Tom Kasal, director of Public Works DJ Zer
[43:56] with 42 40 architecture.
[43:59] This is a project that we've been working on
[44:01] for about a year and a half.
[44:02] It was a direct result of Theron Gore, Vail 2045 Mobility
[44:06] and Transportation master plan
[44:08] that was adopted in the end of 2024.
[44:11] One of the, one of the major items that identified was
[44:14] that the Vail Transportation Center was under capacity,
[44:17] which is something we've been talking about for
[44:20] at least in public works for 20 years.
[44:22] We have a very robust transit system
[44:24] and particularly with Core Transit coming in
[44:26] and almost doubling their ridership in the last few years
[44:30] because of free transit.
[44:32] They have a lot more buses coming to the Vail
[44:34] to Vail, the Town of Vail.
[44:37] We just implemented enhanced transit, which we've increased
[44:41] transit ridership by
[44:43] about 20% over the last few months compared to last year.
[44:47] So there's just real, a real need for increased capacity
[44:51] as well as safety improvements, aging infrastructure
[44:55] around the Vail Village Transportation Center as a whole.
[44:59] So we've been working through this process for the last year
[45:01] and a half with many presentations to council.
[45:03] We've also out outreached to the community
[45:05] and received survey results
[45:07] and all of those have been incorporated into this project.
[45:10] And we're here today just really to give you
[45:13] to up update you on the project.
[45:15] Maybe some of you have been following it.
[45:17] We've been presented to council
[45:19] and to at the community picnics.
[45:21] We also have a presence on engaged Vail just to make sure
[45:26] that those who want to be interested can, can be,
[45:28] but want to make sure that you all are in the loop.
[45:31] 'cause we would, we would expect
[45:32] that at some point we will be submitting for go
[45:35] through the PZC Pro process for this project
[45:38] and really today's to get you up to date.
[45:41] And if there are any red flags, major concerns, would love
[45:46] to hear any comments or feedback.
[45:48] But really this is just to,
[45:49] to bring you up to speed in that, in the loop.
[45:51] So with that, I will turn it over. Did you dj?
[45:54] - Thank you. Do we have a clicker?
[45:56] - I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna have to drive.
[45:57] - Oh, okay. Well string your neck a little. Yeah.
[46:01] Thank you council members. Glad to be here again.
[46:05] DJ Zer with 42 40 architecture.
[46:08] As, as Tom kind of gave a great overview of
[46:11] where we've been in the process.
[46:12] We're coming up on the end of schematic design
[46:15] where we've taken the entire project through.
[46:17] Its kind of entirety we will be in over the next month going
[46:21] back to council to start further discussions about future
[46:25] phasing and breaking this down into components that
[46:29] move forward at different rates.
[46:31] Much like some,
[46:32] some projects in the past like the Alliance at Transit
[46:35] Center, which was actually broken into three phases
[46:39] being horizontal, the the bus transit component
[46:43] and then the welcome center.
[46:44] So we'll get started.
[46:47] So I guess kind of starting with just a need
[46:50] over 6 million visits a year
[46:53] and growing kind of concerns around slip issues or,
[46:58] or buses and people.
[47:00] How do we alleviate some of these conflicts as well as
[47:04] integrate accessibility and,
[47:08] and sufficient passenger waiting areas
[47:11] and really minimize the conflicts between buses and people
[47:14] and, and as well as in need for four more bus bays.
[47:19] When we started this really in, in concept, we looked at
[47:23] what are the opportunities for growth of this site?
[47:26] We need more room for the transit.
[47:28] We could either push kind of the frontage road to the north
[47:31] where we settled rather than going vertically
[47:34] or pushing to the south into the, the nature
[47:37] or the open space that's been preserved along East Meadow.
[47:41] And with that, we've been working mostly Tom and
[47:45] and us through some coordination.
[47:47] We cdot on what that process looks like
[47:49] for shifting the frontage road and,
[47:51] and growing that, that site to the Town of Vail.
[47:56] Gonna take a little bit of a snapshot back in time here to,
[48:00] you know, the idea of the pristine Vail Valley and,
[48:03] and not to to come in
[48:05] and lecture you all on the history of Vail,
[48:07] but just the idea of arrival
[48:08] and how this site has evolved over time.
[48:12] That being this, this kind of romanticism
[48:15] of coming over the mountain and into the valley
[48:17] and then finding yourself within this pedestrian scale
[48:21] and this scale that was derived from these kind
[48:24] of European communities of spe or Zermatt
[48:27] and really preserving that
[48:28] and how do we make that rival procession
[48:31] and process kind of better
[48:34] and really have, have what should be a world class arrival.
[48:38] And like many ski areas, this started with
[48:42] Avon Transit being a parking lot
[48:45] and over time evolved for a greater need there to, to really
[48:49] what there is today.
[48:51] We want to also respect the, the architectural
[48:58] scale of pedestrian village
[49:00] and the idea of roof forms that gesture down to kind
[49:03] of the pedestrian street scape, the materiality
[49:07] that's been established in,
[49:09] in the architectural language of Vail.
[49:12] And so what we kind of started this project
[49:15] with is we have a challenge for a need
[49:18] for more modern transit growing needs for visitor parking
[49:22] and how does that fit into what is the experience of Vail.
[49:27] And so we took a a little bit of a view back in
[49:32] to kind of 1974 when the garage was originally built
[49:35] and there was this concept of a park-like atmosphere
[49:39] for arrival and the idea that you took these kind
[49:42] of cascading step steps through a parkway
[49:45] and there was nature buffering both the north
[49:48] and the south of the party garage as well as on top
[49:51] and over through time.
[49:52] And in the nineties really the, the abundance of concrete
[49:58] densified to meet those transit needs.
[50:00] The, and really the presence of nature minimized.
[50:04] And so how do we, while we continue to solve
[50:07] for these transit needs, continue
[50:10] to think about integrating nature
[50:12] and how one arrives at this special community.
[50:17] So in aside from kind of the transit needs and,
[50:22] and the need for 17 to 18 buses and large vehicles
[50:26] and small vehicles, we have the transit hub.
[50:28] We also have what is Vail Village and,
[50:31] and kind of the pristine community
[50:34] that you find yourself on once you've walked across the
[50:37] pedestrian bridge on Bridge Street.
[50:39] And then you have this kind of nature buffer
[50:41] that the town has preserved.
[50:42] And so as we start to think about how we're,
[50:45] we're building into it, how do we take that appropriately
[50:50] and set one's kind of mindset to a, a world class arrival,
[50:55] really from the beginning of of concept, we,
[50:58] we ended up reaching out to the community through survey
[51:00] and sharing some images
[51:02] and seeing what resonated with folks
[51:05] as well as council members.
[51:06] And where, where some of
[51:09] that landed was really a little bit on the, the right side
[51:12] of these images of the transit biophilia
[51:15] and the idea of kind of presence of nature, warmth
[51:19] of wood materials and natural materials.
[51:21] But we want to also acknowledge
[51:23] and respect the, the architectural character
[51:27] that Vail has established through both physics,
[51:30] civic architecture, as well as just kind of materiality
[51:35] and, and what makes Vail Village special.
[51:38] And some of the is is really in the massing of, of two, two
[51:42] to three story buildings
[51:44] and the way the buildings erode and step back.
[51:46] And some of it's in the, the timeless materials
[51:49] and some of it's in even kind of roof forms
[51:51] and how they gesture with a downward slope.
[51:54] And so through this process we created project goals.
[51:59] The first creating a welcoming transition
[52:01] between the highway garage and Bridge Street.
[52:04] And really the idea of how do we screen the highway, the,
[52:09] the presence of the garage
[52:10] and have this point of arrival that
[52:12] that if done well is hopefully an extension of Bridge Street
[52:16] to know what exists on the other side of
[52:19] that pedestrian bridge
[52:21] to celebrate both surrounding natural beauty
[52:23] and the cultural identity of Vail.
[52:26] Very, very important to keep view corridors
[52:29] that have been established, open
[52:31] and celebrated following the footsteps of kind of some
[52:35] of the, the early planters and zebert
[52:37] and, and others like him.
[52:38] But really just keeping veil, veil
[52:42] and uniquely veil as it relates to scale and color
[52:45] and detail and the project should be easily navigatable.
[52:50] Understandable, useful and,
[52:52] and really the goal is to create a, a world-class arrival
[52:55] for this, you know, worldclass town that Vail is,
[53:00] this is an overall site plan in,
[53:04] let's see if the, the printer will work here.
[53:07] I don't, I'll I'll just have to talk through it I think
[53:11] and in the past,
[53:15] but one of the first big moves we made was
[53:18] to separate really the large vehicles from the small ones.
[53:20] So all of the large buses are over on the west deck.
[53:24] We also tried to really simplify this to
[53:28] minimize crosswalks
[53:29] and those zones where vehicular passes pedestrian areas
[53:33] and that's where you'll see really only two crosswalks
[53:36] where pedestrians actually crossed the bus deck
[53:39] adding some covered shelter areas and, and snow melt.
[53:43] We also ended up shifting the, the shuttle drop off
[53:47] and ride share drop off over to the east deck,
[53:50] which removed some top, there was some loss
[53:53] of parking on the top deck.
[53:55] And with that, the project goal is to backfill
[53:58] and even expand parking within the site.
[54:01] And we've done so by taking some of those programs of
[54:06] Vail departmental areas, the food and beverage and,
[54:09] and ski museum and moving those programs to the south
[54:12] where they can be kind of celebrated
[54:14] and open to the community
[54:16] and letting the parking structure truly just be
[54:20] that out of parking structure.
[54:22] - So where it says passenger drop off
[54:26] and pickup, that would be
[54:29] in this conceptual plan would be where
[54:32] Pegasus would drop off
[54:34] and other vans would be dropping people off
[54:38] as well as me dropping my wife off
[54:42] to go skiing or something like that.
[54:44] Or is where does that occur?
[54:48] - Yeah, so yeah, so all the smaller vehicles,
[54:50] which would include shuttle vans would,
[54:52] would all be dropping off in
[54:53] that loop on the east side only the larger buses,
[54:57] which would include Vail, transit, Core Transit, Greyhound
[55:00] and Mustang would be on the west.
[55:02] - But we have 15 minute parking right now there for people
[55:05] to drop off and run in
[55:07] and whatever that is all in that pa passenger pickup kind
[55:11] of loop around those spots.
[55:13] - See, oh, I, I think I might be able to use as mouse.
[55:16] So this zone here is kind of 15 minute parking.
[55:21] So there is, and then the, the edge
[55:24] of curb is really the drop off
[55:26] and there would be designated zones between Uber, you know,
[55:29] rideshare passenger and hotel shuttles and
[55:32] - There would be a clear lane where people can pull by
[55:35] - 'em so they not exactly, yes, there,
[55:37] there's a continuous lane through.
[55:39] So that really what we're trying
[55:41] to do is maximize the amount of that pull off lane,
[55:46] you know, much like at a airport.
[55:48] Thank you if you will. Thank you. Would this allow the top
[55:50] deck to function while devo drop off is
[55:52] happening at the same time?
[55:55] - Yeah, so the, this would, this would, so devo at,
[55:58] at this at this point would enter into the same way
[56:01] and you would be able to continue on to the east
[56:04] through a gate to get, to get into the same locations that
[56:09] - I'm just saying is that, you know, right now on a Sunday
[56:11] morning whatnot, the top deck is unusable pastor for
[56:14] that chunk of time when devo has to shut it down,
[56:17] would they be able to use that loop
[56:19] and you could keep the whole deck then open or,
[56:21] - Right.
[56:22] I be, the intent would be that Devo drop off would
[56:25] where they were staging for longer,
[56:27] longer periods would happen east, east of that gate
[56:30] that's east of the, the shuttle drop off.
[56:32] - So they would still be
[56:33] occurring inside of the parking deck.
[56:35] Right. Got it. Okay.
[56:42] Okay. And feel free at any time to, to ask questions or
[56:46] otherwise I'll, I'll continue on here really, we have a,
[56:50] a kind of the arrival transit building
[56:53] that is located on the up top deck compositionally.
[56:57] We worked with council to really right position the,
[57:01] these activators is we're calling them, one
[57:04] of them being the museum building,
[57:05] which has some event space and cafe as well as the, the food
[57:10] and beverage component that has retail
[57:12] and as well as welcome center skier services.
[57:15] And we'll go into each of these buildings really in,
[57:18] in more detail, well really a big idea here is
[57:22] that coming from not just a rival,
[57:24] but on departure, you come out
[57:26] of the pedestrian covered bridge
[57:28] and there's presence of hillside and nature
[57:31] and cascading steps rather than, you know, 30 feet of stairs
[57:35] directly meeting you across the street.
[57:38] And that components like escalators are behind screens
[57:42] and also doing their share to screen the garage
[57:45] and the presence of the parking garage while still having
[57:47] these intuitive entries to it.
[57:50] However, from a, from an energy standpoint,
[57:55] really we're trying to have all of all things lead to kind
[57:59] of that covered pedestrian bridge
[58:01] and the idea that we're activating this as a public plaza,
[58:05] not just as kind of intuitive and clear transit,
[58:09] but the idea that you can find entryways intuitively that
[58:14] really it, it's energizing this
[58:16] and really if, if done successfully being an extension
[58:19] of Bridge Street itself, again, locating programs
[58:24] that that bring life to the plaza and, and
[58:28] and celebrating things like the ski museum as well
[58:31] as some community spaces
[58:33] and locating a welcome info center over here on the,
[58:38] on the east side that also connects to lockers
[58:41] and restrooms in the garage itself as well as the,
[58:45] and the accessible route that finds its way at kind
[58:48] of the top arrival area that,
[58:51] that is under this large canopy.
[58:54] And again, the, the, the presence of nature
[58:57] and how do we, how do we take vegetation
[58:59] and make sure that it has a presence
[59:01] and finds its way up into that upper deck.
[59:04] We know that as we go through this in phases
[59:06] and actual submittals, we'll have to work through things
[59:09] that are kind of ever, ever changing with
[59:13] WWE fire codes and, and other things between existing and,
[59:17] and new components.
[59:18] But we know that there's kind of a, a goal
[59:23] to keep nature and, and the presence of it
[59:26] and this set so that it is kind of two
[59:28] to three story buildings set up against the garage
[59:31] and on the hillside rather than one, one larger structure
[59:35] to, to solve the program needs.
[59:40] Another component is just intuitive flow
[59:43] and we like to say the project is formed by flow
[59:46] and so that, you know, buildings were placed to
[59:49] to buffer both from the highway
[59:51] and catch the flow of people, direct them
[59:54] to their destination.
[59:55] We, we have this idea of, of Eddie's, which are just these,
[59:59] these areas of activation of public plaza be it kind
[1:00:03] of re off the food and beverage
[1:00:05] or small breakout areas to, to create what it wants
[1:00:10] to be a, a public plaza,
[1:00:11] but also allows for very clear lines of, of transit
[1:00:16] and, you know, moving the, the amount of people needed kind
[1:00:21] of vertically throughout the site.
[1:00:24] I'm gonna take you on a little bit of a tour,
[1:00:26] these will be kind of three dimensional renderings to,
[1:00:29] to explain the different buildings
[1:00:30] and then we'll do some kind of cutaway floor plans mostly
[1:00:34] to show the, the relationship of, of indoor
[1:00:37] and outdoor adjacencies.
[1:00:40] So really this is a view from the frontage road
[1:00:44] wanting this transit arrival to be somewhat iconic
[1:00:48] and welcoming and really the focus to be on it,
[1:00:51] but really understanding that this, this buffer zone
[1:00:55] that exists today is very important in screening the,
[1:01:00] the bus deck or the transit deck on both
[1:01:02] the east and west sides.
[1:01:04] So even though we've moved the frontage road, we've tried
[1:01:06] to maintain a a, a depth of, of vegetation there.
[1:01:11] This next one, I'm gonna magically turn the trees off just
[1:01:14] to explain the bus shelters a little bit better.
[1:01:17] And really the idea here is they're somewhat consistent in
[1:01:22] architectural materiality and,
[1:01:24] and form as the transit center,
[1:01:27] but they're, they're somewhat kind of a secondary thread
[1:01:31] that finds its way through the project.
[1:01:36] Zooming in on those a little bit, they're designed about
[1:01:39] around the ease of central, so
[1:01:42] central circulation really that idea of, of flow.
[1:01:46] We've integrated planters really to be safety mechanisms
[1:01:50] to have people load
[1:01:52] and unload from the buses in the correct locations
[1:01:54] and be a buffer to sit against to rest your skis against
[1:01:59] the seating and standing areas are kind
[1:02:01] of these breakout areas to the side
[1:02:03] and the idea of kind of at ease or
[1:02:06] or areas where you can take a pause
[1:02:08] outside of the circulation.
[1:02:10] And then we're strategically sloping these structures
[1:02:13] to the south to, for both kind of shielding of, of solar,
[1:02:18] but also the, the ability to integrate photovoltaics.
[1:02:21] And that's something we're working through in discussions
[1:02:24] with Holy Cross as some
[1:02:26] of our sustainability goals on the project.
[1:02:30] The transit center itself is very much to be seen from,
[1:02:35] from the Interstate,
[1:02:36] but also a buffer from the Interstate
[1:02:39] to the PEC pedestrian realm.
[1:02:41] There's a large canopy really gesturing to the south and,
[1:02:45] and really for framing
[1:02:48] that important view corridor of Vail Mountain.
[1:02:52] It, it's expressive and heavy timber and
[1:02:55] but also want, want to find importance on detail and,
[1:02:59] and the, the importance of handmade
[1:03:02] and kind of pedestrian scaled details and,
[1:03:05] and both from kind of what is needed with the extent of
[1:03:10] the arrival on the upper deck to as things get closer
[1:03:13] to Bridge Street and East Meadow Drive, we felt that
[1:03:17] that scale should become more
[1:03:18] and more appropriate to, to Vail Village itself.
[1:03:22] This slide is really just taking something
[1:03:24] that maybe looks somewhat complex and,
[1:03:27] and showing how we, we worked through this in, in a manner
[1:03:30] of a simple triangular grid,
[1:03:35] and then lifting the roof where it want to be
[1:03:37] to be gesturing to arrival or to frame views,
[1:03:41] and then integrating light openings below and,
[1:03:44] and the use of skylights.
[1:03:46] This is a, a, a view kind of coming to that top deck and,
[1:03:50] and around the idea of blurring the indoors
[1:03:53] and out integrating elements of craft
[1:03:56] and traditional materials
[1:03:57] and really tailoring the, the vertical slats,
[1:04:01] the timber elements and the roof overhangs to optimize
[1:04:05] sun exposure on all sides of the building.
[1:04:10] This view is if we jump over to what is the east deck
[1:04:14] and that that hotel shuttle
[1:04:17] and ride share drop off, there's this consistent ribbon,
[1:04:22] if you will, of kind of sheltering canopies.
[1:04:26] Really what's important here is the idea that you can see
[1:04:28] through the canopies, you can see through to the mountain
[1:04:31] and, and keeping those few corridors open.
[1:04:36] This is, might be a little bit difficult to understand,
[1:04:40] but it's a, a cross section looking back towards the
[1:04:43] highway, so looking north into the transit center,
[1:04:47] really focusing on the idea of indoor and outdoor seating
[1:04:51] and the relationship between the two.
[1:04:55] We also had a specific program need around the scale
[1:04:59] of transit that we were trying to solve for the amount of,
[1:05:03] of pedestrians
[1:05:04] and how we kind of worked through that in
[1:05:08] what is also a, a building that works
[1:05:11] as kind of a shelter in place.
[1:05:12] So when the highway shuts down, this wants to also be able
[1:05:15] to facilitate a shelter in place during winter elements
[1:05:20] and until kind of authorities are able to,
[1:05:23] to get folks elsewhere.
[1:05:26] This is a, a, a be a bit of a three-dimensional floor plan,
[1:05:30] really just showing the, what, what it feels like to,
[1:05:35] as you walk in the building.
[1:05:37] It's a little bit lounge like over here on the east side
[1:05:40] and, and where it filters into some
[1:05:42] of the departmental areas
[1:05:43] and then it's more transit efficient,
[1:05:46] focused on solving the need for
[1:05:49] standing room and sitting room.
[1:05:50] But really the, the building is designed
[1:05:53] to keep view corridors open to the mountains and,
[1:05:57] and design the seating around that arrangement as well.
[1:06:00] - So the, the prior rendering showed two stories? Yes.
[1:06:05] Something Where is the second level on this?
[1:06:07] What is, what, what is going to occur in that second?
[1:06:10] - So this is the main stair,
[1:06:11] and then if I go to the next slide here, this comes up
[1:06:14] to a pre-function
[1:06:16] and there is this component of conference boardroom,
[1:06:20] and this is intended to be useful for Town of Vail needs
[1:06:26] during kind of the, the normal work hours.
[1:06:29] And it is also subdivided.
[1:06:30] So if Town of Vail only needs it for,
[1:06:33] or a portion of it, it can be used nights and weekends and,
[1:06:37] and when not needed as a subdividing space
[1:06:41] for the community as well.
[1:06:42] And that's about a thousand square feet.
[1:06:45] - And then what, and then we have
[1:06:46] offices, where are the offices
[1:06:48] - For, and then the, the transit offices here, town
[1:06:51] of Avon Transit, a shared break room for the departments
[1:06:55] and, and the bus drivers.
[1:06:57] And then a, a small gym stretching area for,
[1:07:00] for bus drivers as well
[1:07:02] - On that.
[1:07:03] And the elevator stairs that are depicted in those,
[1:07:04] these two renderings, those go down through,
[1:07:07] through the garage to lower levels?
[1:07:09] Or is it just elevator and stairs that serve this
[1:07:12] - Building?
[1:07:13] Just this building?
[1:07:14] So, so this, this stair is actually
[1:07:18] what we'll show here in a couple slides across section,
[1:07:21] but it's actually located north of, just north
[1:07:23] of the existing parking structure.
[1:07:26] And it is only communicating between the two,
[1:07:29] the two levels of this building.
[1:07:31] Okay. The,
[1:07:35] actually the, the public elevators that connect
[1:07:39] to the garage are located just off the corner
[1:07:41] of this, this view here.
[1:07:43] So still under the covered canopy, you can access those
[1:07:48] to all levels of the parking garage.
[1:07:52] - Wait, okay. So existing elevators or new
[1:07:56] - Elevators, new elevators - That will go into,
[1:07:59] - But we'll also connect to the parking garage.
[1:08:00] Yes. Where's the Vail Transit offices? Offices now?
[1:08:05] They're currently in, in the parking structure. Okay.
[1:08:10] So that's part of the program that we are relocating
[1:08:14] to give them b better real estate,
[1:08:16] but also to backfill the parking need
[1:08:19] and not have a loss of parking to the project where we've
[1:08:23] separated the, the ride share drop off zone that
[1:08:26] that loss some 40 some top deck spaces.
[1:08:29] So their office space will turn into parking
[1:08:31] space when Correct.
[1:08:32] Got it. Yes. As will the, the museum
[1:08:37] and the, the food and beverage that are there today.
[1:08:40] - Yeah. The, the existing restrooms, the locker room, laina,
[1:08:44] that area, then that's where a lot
[1:08:46] of our transit offices are kind of tuck back behind there.
[1:08:49] Those would all go back to parking.
[1:08:53] It would be shifted in place.
[1:08:58] - I mean, I, you know, it, it's a really beautiful building
[1:09:03] and I, I guess I sit there and think about, it's beautiful.
[1:09:08] The second floor provides back,
[1:09:12] I mean back office space basically,
[1:09:15] and a couple conference rooms, which,
[1:09:20] you know, I'm, I'm trying to think who will utilize,
[1:09:23] I'm gonna leave the Four Seasons
[1:09:24] to come have a meeting here.
[1:09:26] Probably not. You know,
[1:09:29] and then the grand room, you know, to me it's, it's Shades
[1:09:33] of Union Station without the food and beverage
[1:09:37] because it's in a different,
[1:09:39] and so then I'm saying I got dropped off to
[1:09:43] take Bustang down to Denver
[1:09:46] and I'm waiting for, I got dropped off
[1:09:49] and I'm waiting for an hour.
[1:09:52] Do I, you know, I have my stuff.
[1:09:55] Do I carry my stuff with me over to the restaurant
[1:09:58] to get something or the cafe?
[1:10:02] But you know, it's, it's a beautiful building,
[1:10:08] but in some ways it feels,
[1:10:16] it, it, it's significant.
[1:10:19] It's architectural significance goes beyond
[1:10:23] the underlying need, I guess.
[1:10:26] So I'm, I'm just a more practical person
[1:10:29] where it's beautiful.
[1:10:31] I love it, but, you know,
[1:10:34] very expensive office space.
[1:10:38] - Understandable. - So just a reaction and,
[1:10:42] and going back on your very first slide,
[1:10:45] I was a little stunned by the 6 million visits
[1:10:49] and at that 17,000 a day, 365 days a year.
[1:10:54] And all of us who live here in Vail, when you walk
[1:10:57] through May Vail from May 1st to May
[1:11:02] to Memorial Day,
[1:11:04] I would have a hard time finding even 1500 people,
[1:11:08] let alone 17,000.
[1:11:11] So I just, I, I would just be cautious that 6 million to me
[1:11:15] sounds, it, it's almost,
[1:11:19] to me it's almost defensive that we say that we have
[1:11:23] that many visits.
[1:11:26] - You - Know, I I would probably argue it's, it falls north
[1:11:30] of three, but probably under four.
[1:11:32] So I'm just reacting to it.
[1:11:34] Unless you guys, you know,
[1:11:35] unless you're saying every car in the parking garage brings
[1:11:38] six people when we know that half the cars are employees
[1:11:42] and there's one person, I just don't know how you got
[1:11:45] to the 6 million count.
[1:11:46] - So I can, I can add to that.
[1:11:48] So the 6 million trips in
[1:11:52] and out of that area is bus ridership,
[1:11:55] which we have bus counters.
[1:11:57] Both Core gave us their counts.
[1:12:00] We have our own counts plus all the parking transactions.
[1:12:03] And so we do have survey data on how many,
[1:12:06] the average number of people that arrive in a vehicle.
[1:12:09] And it's like, I think it's 2.7, so that
[1:12:12] that's 90% of that, that number.
[1:12:19] - Okay. - Whether they arrive by bus
[1:12:21] or arrive by vehicle, that's all combined.
[1:12:27] - Okay. Just a lot of people,
[1:12:30] - It's, it's a lot of people.
[1:12:32] And the, and just cla the,
[1:12:34] the board room on the second floor,
[1:12:35] so it's a conference room currently VA transit area does,
[1:12:39] does have a con small conference room in the back.
[1:12:42] So that does replace that conference area.
[1:12:45] Plus it was an opportunity to provide additional
[1:12:49] community space that Town Council was looking for,
[1:12:52] to engage those in the community.
[1:12:54] That might be, this might be an area where it could be,
[1:12:56] it's a very cost effective,
[1:12:58] - It's a municipality function.
[1:13:00] - Yeah. It's, it's a municipality function first,
[1:13:03] but then off off hours, weekends, we were hoping
[1:13:07] that community groups could use that similar to
[1:13:10] how the library is used.
[1:13:12] - Do you know what head count offices out
[1:13:13] of the Vail Transit offices right now
[1:13:18] - That include the transit drivers and staff?
[1:13:22] - I guess back like, well you'd say office staff,
[1:13:25] you know, that are there full time?
[1:13:26] - Not not the drivers. - Just not the drivers.
[1:13:29] We probably have four
[1:13:34] or five at any one time in, in that office.
[1:13:38] And then the drivers coming in and out for breaks. So, okay.
[1:13:44] We have, we have about, we have 70 to 80 drivers,
[1:13:47] - So it's used for four to five full-time staff in office
[1:13:51] with also providing brake facilities
[1:13:54] for drivers coming in and out of shift.
[1:13:55] Right, okay. In a level one,
[1:14:00] there's some, some components of Core Transit office spaces
[1:14:05] as well and, and, and the, the kind of informational
[1:14:09] - Support as well.
[1:14:10] Yeah. So this area combines welcome center
[1:14:12] and transit center
[1:14:13] and core offices are in that number six area.
[1:14:17] They currently have space within the Vail transit area
[1:14:23] as well as welcome center and information
[1:14:30] and restrooms.
[1:14:34] - This is a, a cross section taken north, south
[1:14:37] and strategically, we, we tried to put the two story portion
[1:14:41] of the new building to the north of,
[1:14:44] of the parking structure itself.
[1:14:46] But really this is, I would say more about helping to show
[1:14:50] that this is within the range of two, two
[1:14:52] to three story buildings and,
[1:14:54] and the idea that these buildings cascade up
[1:14:57] the site rather than one, you know, appearing as one larger
[1:15:01] cohesive, you know, building, if you will.
[1:15:07] - When I look, sorry, when I look at this cross section just
[1:15:09] down at the bottom, and it, it might,
[1:15:12] you might talk about this later
[1:15:13] where it says arrive fail on the new welcome center area.
[1:15:17] Yes. Is that protruding out into what's
[1:15:19] currently East Meadow Drive?
[1:15:21] So are we, are we narrowing East Meadow drive this plan?
[1:15:27] - We, so I believe that this, this is
[1:15:30] where it currently narrows down.
[1:15:33] We are trying to keep that the portion of bus
[1:15:38] zone that actually crosses through there as narrow
[1:15:40] as possible to maximize
[1:15:43] and minimized the, the conflict with pedestrian crossings.
[1:15:47] And we did end up taking the, the bus stop
[1:15:50] that was really located about here
[1:15:53] and shifted it to, to the west so that buses crossed
[1:15:58] the pedestrian zone before they stopped.
[1:16:00] And that way you no longer have that conflict
[1:16:02] of is the bus about to leave or did they just get there?
[1:16:07] So a little bit of both.
[1:16:08] We are trying to narrow that down to minimize kind
[1:16:12] of any potential conflict.
[1:16:13] But part of that is we moved the bus stop,
[1:16:17] - That's where I sort of had a question
[1:16:19] to not have it on the east side
[1:16:21] of the arrived Vail welcome center,
[1:16:23] kinda like it is in Lion's head where there's that overhang.
[1:16:26] When I went through the, the slide show, the presentation,
[1:16:31] it seemed to me that having the bus,
[1:16:33] which I know is further coming in this slide show,
[1:16:36] it's in front of the museum, the ski museum,
[1:16:39] which I feel like is gonna add a lot of cluster perhaps
[1:16:43] and some confusion.
[1:16:45] I I like what you've just said, it makes sense as far
[1:16:47] as when people, you know, want to come down the stairs
[1:16:49] and cross the street, they don't know if a
[1:16:51] bus is coming or going.
[1:16:53] But if it's on that east side by the arrive vale,
[1:16:55] where there's already a pad that exists in that sense where
[1:17:00] they stop, it's narrower after that
[1:17:03] and there's a gate anyway.
[1:17:05] So maybe that gate would allow people to understand whether
[1:17:08] or not that bus is coming through or not
[1:17:10] and they could coordinate their timing
[1:17:12] that way or something.
[1:17:13] 'cause I, I kind of forgot about that gate
[1:17:16] that's there when we talk about this Meadow Drive portion.
[1:17:19] But yeah, as we go further into this presentation,
[1:17:23] when we see where the bus stop is in front of the museum,
[1:17:27] I I felt like that was a little crowded.
[1:17:29] Okay. You know, 'cause it's a narrower portion of the road.
[1:17:33] Sure. But I understand why you did that at this point.
[1:17:37] - So, and one other component to point out is just,
[1:17:40] that's also where the eastbound drop is.
[1:17:43] So like currently you have
[1:17:44] to look at buses in both directions.
[1:17:46] Yes. You know, as a pedestrian crossing part of that working
[1:17:51] with our transit consultant was that can we get all buses
[1:17:53] to the west side Right.
[1:17:55] To kind of alleviate the directions
[1:17:58] that people are looking at vehicles coming.
[1:18:00] - I understand. Yeah. So
[1:18:02] - Just for that, where the arrive, ail sign is an entrance.
[1:18:06] So that, imagine that that's where that
[1:18:10] bus bunker is with the children's tiles.
[1:18:13] That's where that is. So that doesn't,
[1:18:15] that doesn't encroach further than that.
[1:18:17] Th this particular rendering shows that neck down
[1:18:20] where the gate used to be.
[1:18:22] It's currently just a neck down. Right.
[1:18:23] But it shows that one planter on the south side
[1:18:26] and I think in this design we removed the planter on the
[1:18:29] north side so that landscaping
[1:18:31] could be up against the building.
[1:18:33] But that was just a small nuance there.
[1:18:40] - This is the point from the top deck that you start
[1:18:43] to take the, the stairs and escalator.
[1:18:45] Really the, the idea is it's intuitive, you know,
[1:18:49] where you're going from here
[1:18:50] to the pedestrian bridge is very visible, the idea
[1:18:55] of cascading kind of stairs
[1:18:57] and escalators down to break up that what is a,
[1:19:00] a a 30 some feet vertically as you get down
[1:19:04] to this mid-level plaza, this is where we've kind
[1:19:07] of located the, the activator idea of food and beverage
[1:19:10] and having indoor eating areas,
[1:19:15] outdoor eating areas both covered in uncovered
[1:19:18] and great sun exposure
[1:19:20] and views to the, the Southwest to really activate
[1:19:25] the, this zone and,
[1:19:26] and provide, you know, a food and beverage component.
[1:19:31] So on the f and b side, this is gonna be Town of Vail owned
[1:19:35] and leased to a vendor through the 10 avail.
[1:19:39] - That would be the assumption, yes. Okay.
[1:19:41] Yeah, I mean I think the, the assumption here is, you know,
[1:19:44] this is, you know, lock
[1:19:46] and a lock cantina type plus maybe another type vendor
[1:19:50] or lock cantina much larger all to be determined.
[1:19:54] - Yeah. As you know, you're gonna get is talk about
[1:19:57] affordability because you're gonna be displacing La Cantina
[1:20:01] and whether they come into can this space
[1:20:02] or not, the hot topic in town right now is loss of
[1:20:07] businesses that are affordable and serve local population.
[1:20:11] And so that's gonna be really high visibility on this,
[1:20:14] that ensuring that whatever is in here is an option
[1:20:17] that's affordable to the average local to go in
[1:20:22] and grab a bite on their way out skiing
[1:20:24] and that they could do in loud cantina right now. So,
[1:20:26] - And I think, and the discussions with council that,
[1:20:28] that would be the intent of this space is
[1:20:30] that obviously the town would be subsidizing Yep.
[1:20:33] The space and you know,
[1:20:35] may maybe it winds up being a similar lease structure
[1:20:37] that La Cantina has, but all to be determined.
[1:20:40] But it wasn't intended that this would be a,
[1:20:45] a local restaurateur coming in here and,
[1:20:47] and putting in a four, four or five star restaurant.
[1:20:50] - You know, I have to say it given local,
[1:20:51] given the recent dialogue in the town.
[1:20:54] So yeah,
[1:21:00] A view from the inside and,
[1:21:02] and really what this has been designed to,
[1:21:04] to gesture towards, towards the mountain and views.
[1:21:07] And hopefully you don't get tired of me saying that.
[1:21:11] So this view's taken down from East Meadow and,
[1:21:14] and this is the kind of the skier services as well
[1:21:18] as welcoming information component down here
[1:21:21] along East Meadow.
[1:21:23] These are small kind of micro retail
[1:21:27] and the idea is that they are either seasonal
[1:21:30] or annual local popups that that Town
[1:21:35] of Vail again owns and,
[1:21:36] and allows local businesses to, to come into here
[1:21:39] and help kind of energize the streetscape.
[1:21:42] But the idea is that, that the entryway is intuitive here.
[1:21:48] And as the buildings get closer to Bridge Street
[1:21:51] or closer to East Meadow, they start to find more alignment
[1:21:56] with kind of detailing and scale of Vail Village.
[1:22:00] So taking what is a, a big transit need
[1:22:02] and breaking it down into kind
[1:22:03] of more appropriate scale of buildings.
[1:22:07] This is a cutaway of, of that first level
[1:22:11] you come in the lobby, this is the welcome information
[1:22:14] kind of lobby zone.
[1:22:16] And then we're currently providing about 200 ski lockers,
[1:22:22] a mix of, of full length and half length.
[1:22:24] There's restrooms, there's your accessible access to,
[1:22:28] to elevators as well as an entry into the garage.
[1:22:31] And then these are those micro retail components.
[1:22:38] And then just talking a little bit about the plaza designed
[1:22:42] to be that the, these buildings are built up against the
[1:22:46] garage screening it, they're built up against
[1:22:49] or on top of the hillside cascading
[1:22:52] and continuing a civic scale
[1:22:55] and traditional materials in a way that are kind
[1:22:59] of reinterpreted to be somewhat contemporary
[1:23:02] but also have a connection to, to history in place.
[1:23:07] The escalator, it was important that we,
[1:23:10] the escalator be something that's in a component
[1:23:13] to screen the garage but also not be the focal piece
[1:23:16] as well as stairs.
[1:23:17] And the idea that you come out of that pedestrian bridge
[1:23:20] and you see hillside, you see nature, you see
[1:23:23] cascading stairs, but you don't see a, you know,
[1:23:27] a giant escalator or canopy over that.
[1:23:31] And that entries are intuitive, easy to find
[1:23:35] and have familiar components around there.
[1:23:38] And that details are crafted throughout.
[1:23:41] - So the, the escalator is concealed behind it,
[1:23:45] the sla, the slats
[1:23:47] - It is. So it's a, so
[1:23:48] - From the upper level and then people would take a Right,
[1:23:51] they're going down that escalator go to the right
[1:23:53] and then screen to go down and you come out the open area.
[1:23:56] Correct. On the left. Okay.
[1:23:58] - Yep. And some of the decisions going into
[1:24:01] that is making sure that people weren't turning more than 90
[1:24:04] degrees carrying skis or other components.
[1:24:08] So, you know, try not to allow for doubling back,
[1:24:10] having it being sheltered from, from the conditions,
[1:24:13] but still kind of open and exposed.
[1:24:19] This is a view from the really the west side looking east
[1:24:23] down, east meadow.
[1:24:25] And I think one thing that it's helpful to show is just
[1:24:29] how the building scale feels appropriate with,
[1:24:34] with what's happening on the south side of the street in two
[1:24:37] to three story buildings, that that step back
[1:24:40] and the idea that the, the stairs, the main grand
[1:24:44] stairs are very visible, very easy
[1:24:47] to find components.
[1:24:50] And, and again, the presence of,
[1:24:52] of nature in the hillside is a common
[1:24:54] thread throughout the project.
[1:24:59] This is hopefully not too apocalyptic of a view of the,
[1:25:03] the museum building kind of a con contrasty colors.
[1:25:07] But the idea that the,
[1:25:08] the museum building has this vertical element of a stair
[1:25:12] and is a bit of a lantern off of the, the public way.
[1:25:15] And then the building itself becomes simpler
[1:25:20] as it moves, moves to the west.
[1:25:22] And towards the, the open space,
[1:25:26] Here's a, a cross section just showing how that
[1:25:30] building sits up against the existing parking,
[1:25:33] the ca cafe component on the roof that,
[1:25:37] that aligns with the bus stack.
[1:25:38] Level two is an, an event space
[1:25:41] and level three is really the, what's replacing that ski
[1:25:45] and snowboard museum that is in the garage today.
[1:25:49] - The, can you go back? Yep, - There we
[1:25:52] - Go.
[1:25:53] So number five,
[1:25:54] there's a separate elevator tower here
[1:25:56] servicing this building.
[1:25:58] Correct. And are, are,
[1:26:00] are these elevators gonna be accessible
[1:26:02] to people in the garage or is it,
[1:26:04] do I see it's only in the lowest level of the garage?
[1:26:07] You can get in the elevator and then get into
[1:26:10] - The, this three - Levels of the new building.
[1:26:12] - Yeah, this building's elevator is dual sided and,
[1:26:16] and one side is kind of for back of house
[1:26:18] and one for front of house.
[1:26:20] But it only is servicing the three public levels.
[1:26:25] So the, the museum, the event space
[1:26:27] and the, the rooftop, it does not connect.
[1:26:32] This building does not have connections
[1:26:34] besides a back of house loading to the parking itself.
[1:26:38] - Okay. And then the pre-function space,
[1:26:44] is that for the museum
[1:26:46] or is that like another room
[1:26:49] that the town is gonna rent out to people?
[1:26:51] What, what is the pre-function
[1:26:53] - Space?
[1:26:54] It, it is another event space.
[1:26:54] So on level, level one is the museum component
[1:26:59] with a a little bit of expanded program there is the ability
[1:27:03] for the museum to close down and the building lobby and,
[1:27:07] and stair to stale function.
[1:27:09] While I'll jump up to level two or the event space is,
[1:27:12] but the idea that the stair is more of a building component
[1:27:16] and there's an event space on level two.
[1:27:19] So you could have events happening on level two while it's
[1:27:22] off hours for the museum
[1:27:23] and the event space is town controlled or museum controlled.
[1:27:28] - So it would be town controlled. Okay.
[1:27:31] I think, I think the, the discussions where that's synergy
[1:27:34] that could happen between a museum
[1:27:36] and an event, you know, something having, having an,
[1:27:38] some sort of event in the museum building
[1:27:40] or it's coupled with the museum.
[1:27:42] So you could say, oh let's start in the museum
[1:27:45] or start in the event space and go go to the museum
[1:27:47] and they can work, work together.
[1:27:50] And, and, and for that matter the cafe too, which is,
[1:27:53] which would be on top, but,
[1:27:55] but the intent would be
[1:27:56] that this would be a town owned building
[1:27:59] and Town Avon town owned spaces.
[1:28:03] - And I think like the food
[1:28:04] and beverage, the cafe would be town owned
[1:28:06] and a tenant would occupy that space.
[1:28:10] - So the, the prep kitchen for the event spaces upstairs
[1:28:16] - It, we have a, I'll jump back down a little bit of a back
[1:28:21] of house plating kitchen for the event space.
[1:28:25] So that could be catered from an outside venue,
[1:28:28] it could be something coming from the cafe above.
[1:28:32] I think it really just depends on how this ultimately gets
[1:28:35] utilized, but tried to program this flexible
[1:28:38] for a flexible use.
[1:28:42] - And this would be similar to the grand view.
[1:28:44] This would, this would actually have more space
[1:28:47] than the grand view would both capacity and prep space. I'm
[1:28:51] - Thinking if somebody wanted to rent this space
[1:28:54] to do a wedding, you know, so you got married somewhere,
[1:28:58] you came here, food
[1:29:00] and beverage delivery, all the pieces, you know,
[1:29:04] when it's on a different floor it, it gets more complicated.
[1:29:09] - Right. And I, I think the intent
[1:29:10] that this would be one floor you would have back
[1:29:14] of house space for relative to the,
[1:29:18] for catering relative to the size of the event space.
[1:29:21] If, if you, I mean we were, this is all talking out loud.
[1:29:25] Well if you wanted to have something more,
[1:29:28] more than just catering, do you then coordinate
[1:29:30] with the museum cafe and do something different
[1:29:33] that you have the ability to do that.
[1:29:34] But it wouldn't be, wouldn't be necessary.
[1:29:38] - And this is programmed,
[1:29:39] I believe it's about 2100 square feet,
[1:29:42] so roughly about a hundred people from a
[1:29:45] banquet style layout.
[1:29:46] Like you see here more if you're doing more kind
[1:29:49] of true lecture or something like that.
[1:29:58] And then the, the, the rooftop cafe.
[1:30:00] And really the, the idea was to keep, to keep views open,
[1:30:03] have an intuitive arrival that and,
[1:30:07] and kind of roof design
[1:30:08] that fits into the surrounding architecture of the transit
[1:30:13] and bus shelters as well as just this intuitive arrival
[1:30:17] that you, you walk into
[1:30:18] and it has great views both down valley and up valley
[1:30:24] and great indoor and outdoor spaces.
[1:30:29] And you called it the Museum cafe again,
[1:30:31] is it a separate vendor?
[1:30:32] It's completely, that's not associated with the museum
[1:30:35] or is it a museum run cafe?
[1:30:37] - No, I I we would,
[1:30:38] I would think it would be a separate vendor. Okay.
[1:30:40] - Yeah. Sorry. And I may have done that.
[1:30:43] We're referring to it as the museum building, but the,
[1:30:46] but really the museum is one, one level of this.
[1:30:50] I'm just getting as is museum being gifted a
[1:30:52] giant three story building? No. Okay.
[1:30:55] - The, the intent is to replace the museum for
[1:30:57] what they have with a little bit more space.
[1:30:58] - So you're behind, you're behind this
[1:31:00] - Building and the other two floors would be million cash.
[1:31:05] They could all work together but they don't have to. Got it.
[1:31:10] - I mean I, you know, I'm, I'm sitting there thinking more
[1:31:13] from a business perspective on the arrival.
[1:31:15] The cafe is perfectly loaded, located on the departure less,
[1:31:21] you know, it will be, it'll be a thriving business from
[1:31:24] seven in the morning till one or two.
[1:31:28] - That is the hope.
[1:31:32] And that's, that's all.
[1:31:34] We're happy to answer any questions
[1:31:35] unless Tom there was anything you wanted to elaborate on?
[1:31:38] - Yeah, I mean if you, if you have any questions
[1:31:41] or confirmations then I could let you know kind of
[1:31:43] what next steps are and where we're headed from here.
[1:31:46] But we can take any questions on
[1:31:48] the building. So one of the questions
[1:31:49] - On the very first slide, does the transit center arrival,
[1:31:54] I was trying to figure out does that include
[1:31:58] the frontage road adjustment when you were showing it So
[1:32:01] we're gonna get more space from CDOT or whatever
[1:32:05] - Right.
[1:32:06] That that is, that is a critical component of this project.
[1:32:09] - Yeah, I mean when I saw that I, it makes sense
[1:32:12] but you have to get that
[1:32:13] to make this whole thing work. Right.
[1:32:15] - And so we've had multiple meetings with cdot.
[1:32:17] I mean the, the good news is this is
[1:32:19] for transportation purposes.
[1:32:20] Yeah. So they're amenable, generally amenable to it.
[1:32:25] We're kind of going through that process now of, you know,
[1:32:27] what is the process, you know,
[1:32:29] if we start now it's probably a two year process
[1:32:31] before we actually, you know, acquire the land.
[1:32:34] So we're kind of going down that path.
[1:32:36] What do they need to see?
[1:32:38] Make sure there's no future impacts with the future
[1:32:42] assumptions for I 70.
[1:32:44] So we're, we're, we're we're working through those
[1:32:46] with CDOT as we speak
[1:32:48] - And just in phasing.
[1:32:51] Yep. So it seems to me that the transit center bus drop off
[1:32:57] all that parking garage stuff, the,
[1:33:01] the passenger pickup drop off lane
[1:33:03] is a phase one kind of approach.
[1:33:06] - Probably even broken down even more.
[1:33:08] I think, I think, you know, initially,
[1:33:10] you know it'd be great a phase one,
[1:33:12] the first thing we'd have to do is move the front road so
[1:33:15] that, that could be a phase of its own just phase one
[1:33:18] prepping for making the room for accommodations.
[1:33:20] What we'd like to include into that
[1:33:23] would be adding additional bus capacity,
[1:33:25] which may not look exactly like this,
[1:33:27] but as an interim solution saying well we can move the
[1:33:30] frontage road at the same time we can gain a few bus bays
[1:33:33] to, to deal with the immediate needs of additional bus bays.
[1:33:38] That could be So can we do
[1:33:38] that could be a phase that can you,
[1:33:40] - Can that happen in the next five years?
[1:33:42] - We, we are hoping in the next, to start in 2028.
[1:33:47] - So the next two years, yeah
[1:33:48] - We have funding, we have funding from CDOT specifically
[1:33:53] for improvements here.
[1:33:55] We have Core Transit going to, is trying to move a grant
[1:33:59] that they have towards this project.
[1:34:02] The town of a has a placeholder for some money here.
[1:34:06] So you know, we would say we probably have $10 million
[1:34:11] or so now and the, the goal will be,
[1:34:12] well we could move front road
[1:34:14] and probably gain some additional immediate bus capacity
[1:34:17] that wouldn't change the welcome center
[1:34:19] or the transit center that would stay,
[1:34:21] it's a good first step stay as is.
[1:34:22] But it, but it gets us towards that.
[1:34:24] I mean certainly we'd love to see this just happen
[1:34:28] but we are looking at other, you know, the other pieces of
[1:34:30] that funding mechanisms.
[1:34:32] Obviously the multimillion dollar question, how you pay
[1:34:35] for this and right now
[1:34:40] two ma other than the existing dollars we have now two
[1:34:43] potential major streams would be a Downtown Development
[1:34:47] Authority that has been in discussions, you know, how
[1:34:51] that incorporates with the West Line said as
[1:34:53] that eventually moves forward,
[1:34:55] is there one downtown from basically Fort Park all the way
[1:34:57] to West Lionhead and dollars eventually
[1:35:01] fund improvements in each particular area,
[1:35:03] whether it's Bell Village Lionhead or West Lionhead.
[1:35:06] The other funding mechanism that I recently came out
[1:35:10] from Colorado is there's a new Senate bill 65
[1:35:15] for transit and housing where we would,
[1:35:19] if awarded it's, it's a grant
[1:35:21] but it is a, a grant that is specific to transit and housing
[1:35:26] and you would, you would gain tax,
[1:35:29] it's basically tax increment finance on
[1:35:31] Cal Colorado sales tax.
[1:35:32] So you would gain the incremental sales tax,
[1:35:37] you know, more, more to come on that one.
[1:35:39] We are waiting for additional information
[1:35:41] but it has passed waiting.
[1:35:42] - I mean I, when I come back, I mean I commend you
[1:35:44] that first step of getting the frontage road
[1:35:47] and enhancing the bus drop off.
[1:35:49] It's the highest priority.
[1:35:51] But, but the fact that you've looked at a broader plan
[1:35:55] and that first step fits beautifully into that plan.
[1:36:00] I think, I mean I compliment you guys for thinking that way
[1:36:03] - And I think, you know, just thinking about phases,
[1:36:05] our initial phase, let's say if we, if we had,
[1:36:08] if we're sitting on $30 million, you know we might say,
[1:36:12] well the initial phase initially was we could do the bus,
[1:36:15] the Western bus area,
[1:36:17] we could do the eastern passenger drop off.
[1:36:20] We would leave the existing welcome
[1:36:21] center exactly where it is.
[1:36:22] And that would function in the interim
[1:36:24] as both the transit center and welcome center granted a
[1:36:26] little tight for all those functions
[1:36:30] and obviously move the furniture.
[1:36:31] That would be kind of a, a phase one ideal.
[1:36:34] And then hopefully a few years down the road then we would
[1:36:38] build those, build those outbuildings which would then allow
[1:36:41] for the, the transit building itself.
[1:36:43] 'cause I ideally two
[1:36:45] and four are built so that we can then build building one
[1:36:49] because all those uses in two
[1:36:51] and four are underneath are within
[1:36:53] the parking structure today
[1:36:56] - And controlled by Vail and have flexible uses.
[1:36:59] So yeah, and just getting to the point of separating bus
[1:37:03] traffic from car traffic is a big win out there
[1:37:07] honestly from where it functions today.
[1:37:09] - Right. And that was a goal is just separate at least large
[1:37:12] vehicles from smaller vehicles there would still be
[1:37:14] constraints because you are on top
[1:37:16] of parking structure in this area.
[1:37:17] We, you know, currently the very large hotel shuttles don't
[1:37:21] go go up on the, the train station
[1:37:22] center Theron Gore to Gold Peak.
[1:37:24] We would expect that would, would remain, you know,
[1:37:28] it'd be nice to have even a third location
[1:37:30] where you have all your large buses, your shuttle buses
[1:37:33] and your skier drop off.
[1:37:35] But you know that the site is pretty
[1:37:37] constrained so that would be unlikely.
[1:37:39] And you know, doing the,
[1:37:41] you know we have the traffic studies on
[1:37:43] how many shuttle buses come at one time.
[1:37:46] I think that would, it will provide enough, it will provide
[1:37:50] a decent amount of room for both shuttle buses
[1:37:52] and for passenger drop off.
[1:37:54] Passenger drop off right now is kind of a bit hectic.
[1:37:57] It's a handful of parking spaces that have to back out
[1:38:00] to get in and out, which become, which is very difficult.
[1:38:03] And one, one comment on Devo,
[1:38:07] 'cause we've been working on this for so long.
[1:38:09] One of the things we talked about, you know, with Devo,
[1:38:11] you know, it does back up onto the frontage road this by,
[1:38:15] with this design and now provides a longer queue area to get
[1:38:18] to the area in front of just past just east of five.
[1:38:22] So that we could probably get a little bit more, more
[1:38:25] of the vehicles, probably not all
[1:38:26] but more of the vehicles off the frontage road
[1:38:29] and have a longer queue into
[1:38:33] a staging area for devo.
[1:38:36] Assuming Devo stays exactly where it's,
[1:38:39] - How many parking spaces are gonna be
[1:38:42] lost on the upper level,
[1:38:44] - Roughly - About 40.
[1:38:46] And we feel that we can backfill those within the
[1:38:49] constraints of the garage completely understand
[1:38:51] that there's, you know,
[1:38:52] reasons why those are preferred on the top level
[1:38:55] with height clearances and things like that.
[1:38:58] - Yeah, I was going to make the comment, you know,
[1:39:00] I don't look at, I like to park on the upper deck
[1:39:03] but I get really annoyed by parking on the upper deck
[1:39:06] 'cause it's more convenient than parking in the garage.
[1:39:10] I can say this 'cause Tom didn't build the garage,
[1:39:13] but the, the interior of our garage is terrible
[1:39:15] and it takes forever to get through it.
[1:39:16] And so I prefer, you know, if I'm going to the village,
[1:39:18] I'll park on the upper deck if I can.
[1:39:21] That being said, it becomes very difficult
[1:39:24] to park on the upper deck nowadays
[1:39:26] because of all of the ridiculous oversized vehicles
[1:39:30] that have been manufactured
[1:39:32] by body manufacturers in this country.
[1:39:35] - Sprinter van plus bike rack sticking out. Yeah.
[1:39:38] - The parking structure was not designed for that.
[1:39:41] - And you're like literally weaving through things
[1:39:43] to make sure you don't hit any body
[1:39:45] and you have to go, it is slow.
[1:39:46] So is it, it doesn't really seem like there's
[1:39:50] that opportunity because there are physical constraints
[1:39:52] with the walls and whatnot,
[1:39:54] but I don't know if there's any way to rectify
[1:39:57] that problem or not.
[1:39:58] 'cause you do have to stick those oversized vehicles when
[1:40:01] there are visitors in town.
[1:40:02] They have to park up there,
[1:40:04] but I don't think there's a way
[1:40:06] to lengthen parking spaces anyway to, to,
[1:40:10] to be more accommodating to those.
[1:40:12] - Unfortunately not
[1:40:13] unless we obviously took down the parking structure.
[1:40:16] - Yeah, okay. That was just a question I had
[1:40:20] while we're looking at, we didn't see any
[1:40:22] renderings at five.
[1:40:23] Aren't there offices over in
[1:40:25] that building right now? Transit offices?
[1:40:28] - So that's the parking office
[1:40:29] and it's one, it's one office
[1:40:32] that has the parking supervisor.
[1:40:33] They have, if you ever go in there,
[1:40:35] they have all the computer screens and everything
[1:40:36] and they're on and they're taking in lots
[1:40:38] and lots of dollars.
[1:40:41] So that is an area that we identified
[1:40:43] as there needs to be additional space.
[1:40:44] So really what five is, is just a, a small expansion of
[1:40:47] that existing space to accommodate
[1:40:50] - And those still be elevators that go in
[1:40:52] that location that go up and down.
[1:40:54] So right now we have elevator there
[1:40:57] and then way down the road there'll be elevators
[1:41:01] to right near where the passenger drop off is. Yep.
[1:41:05] - Right, right, right near this green space near too.
[1:41:08] - And there will still be the internal elevators to the west
[1:41:11] of there that exists today.
[1:41:14] - There will, there will not. Yeah.
[1:41:15] The the western Oh there someplace banks. It's about here.
[1:41:18] And so we're, we're replacing that. Yeah.
[1:41:21] That that elevator bank goes away.
[1:41:23] This one comes in new
[1:41:25] and then we, we keep that one near five.
[1:41:27] - So there'll only be two elevators going
[1:41:30] up and down. Correct.
[1:41:31] - Coors? - Yep. Okay. Alright.
[1:41:35] - And you know, I mean one of all those,
[1:41:38] the conversations are what is the life
[1:41:41] of our parking garages And in this plan, if you,
[1:41:44] - It's always been the first question. So yeah,
[1:41:46] - If you were gonna develop all this, which is, you know,
[1:41:50] I'm, I'm gonna take a wild guess
[1:41:52] and call it not something north of 50 million.
[1:41:56] What, what can we do to extend the life
[1:41:58] of the parking garage through, you know,
[1:42:02] another 25 plus years after this?
[1:42:05] - So, and that's what we're actively doing right now.
[1:42:08] We council's identified major maintenance money
[1:42:11] and that's why you see all the construction
[1:42:13] going on now with the village.
[1:42:14] And that is, that is truly maintenance.
[1:42:15] It's a almost 50-year-old structure
[1:42:18] and it needs significant maintenance rehab
[1:42:23] and that's what we're doing currently.
[1:42:24] And we will be doing significant maintenance
[1:42:28] for the next few years.
[1:42:30] And then even beyond that, it would take more than
[1:42:32] what we did the first 50 years
[1:42:33] to keep it alive for another 50 years.
[1:42:35] So, so we have a structural report
[1:42:37] and we've been working with the same structural engineers
[1:42:40] for a long time on the, our both our structures to identify
[1:42:43] and, you know, end of life versus what do we need to do.
[1:42:47] So the goal is really,
[1:42:49] we're looking at providing enough maintenance dollars in
[1:42:52] rehab to make that structure last 50 years plus,
[1:42:55] I mean it's all concrete structure.
[1:42:57] There's plenty of concrete structures all over the nation
[1:42:59] that have lasted way longer than 50 years.
[1:43:01] Yeah. So that, that, that's our goal
[1:43:04] because certainly taking that whole structure down
[1:43:06] and bringing it back up, not only the dollars
[1:43:09] but the feasibility of doing that is, is some, is something
[1:43:14] for another time. Not our time
[1:43:17] - When you're, when you're dead Yeah. Tired.
[1:43:21] - Yes, exactly. So, so that, that is how arrived Vail is.
[1:43:24] Certainly, it's, it's the, it's the vision
[1:43:26] for the next 50 years.
[1:43:28] Yeah. So we, we've gotten through 50 years.
[1:43:30] It's, it's, it's tired, it's old.
[1:43:32] Let's, let's keep the parking structure whole,
[1:43:35] let's keep it a lot, let's keep it working
[1:43:36] and functioning for another 50 years
[1:43:38] and let's create a new vision for what the next 50 years
[1:43:41] of entering Vail Village would be.
[1:43:44] - Good presentation. Yeah. - My guess, my guess was 70 bill
[1:43:48] - 70 million.
[1:43:49] No, I was, I was being polite.
[1:43:52] - So, so Bill's low bid,
[1:43:54] you're hired, we'll we'll start tomorrow.
[1:43:56] Yeah.
[1:43:59] - Did you have a schematic budget on it or no?
[1:44:01] - Yeah. Yes, but so we're in the a hundred million probably,
[1:44:06] probably plus as you keep going, but you know,
[1:44:10] I think there, there's opportunities here, there.
[1:44:12] It's a trans transit and transportation facility.
[1:44:16] There are grants out there.
[1:44:17] We did apply for a build grant for, for
[1:44:21] $25 million this year.
[1:44:23] We didn't get it. We'll get a debrief on why, but it,
[1:44:26] but it ticks all the boxes for those types of things
[1:44:28] and those are the things that we'll be kind of chasing
[1:44:31] as they come, or transit facilities, you know, this,
[1:44:34] this new Colorado state funding potential
[1:44:38] and a Downtown Development Authority.
[1:44:40] So all those things, if we can get them all
[1:44:41] to come together at the right time, then maybe this happens.
[1:44:44] But at least like you said,
[1:44:46] phase one is the functionality core has reached out to me
[1:44:49] and said we're concerned.
[1:44:51] What are we gonna do when we throw show up with more buses
[1:44:55] than we even have now?
[1:44:56] Because their 10 year plan
[1:44:58] and immediate future is more buses
[1:45:00] to more frequency for more ridership.
[1:45:02] And that's what's working. What
[1:45:03] we're trying for, it's working.
[1:45:04] - So I mean, you mentioned the computer screens that count,
[1:45:08] the parking revenue, which, you know,
[1:45:11] I know over the history of the town has been used
[1:45:14] to cover other bonds, et cetera.
[1:45:17] But you know, I, I look at
[1:45:20] that revenue source is pretty significant
[1:45:23] and to say
[1:45:24] that parking rates are gonna stay at the exact dollar amount
[1:45:27] they are now for the next 50 years isn't
[1:45:29] pragmatic or realistic.
[1:45:30] Right. So at what point can parking revenues
[1:45:35] be committed to this project versus supporting other
[1:45:40] projects that, that have happened
[1:45:42] or potentially could happen in the community?
[1:45:45] - And I think, you know, ultimately that's up
[1:45:46] to Town Council and I think, you know, there's a lot
[1:45:51] of momentum for this project from a council side,
[1:45:54] obviously it would be a great grand new vision for, for Vail
[1:45:57] and how does it compete with the other other needs
[1:46:00] of the Town of Vail and you know, whether we, you know, go
[1:46:04] for bonds or however the funding comes together.
[1:46:08] You know, our goal is to say, is to get to the point
[1:46:10] where we're, we're ready to move forward with a,
[1:46:13] with a vision that we have and phase one is attainable
[1:46:16] and we can attain that in the next couple of years
[1:46:19] and get that done and keep chasing funding
[1:46:23] or desire for the other pieces of the puzzle.
[1:46:27] - I think this is great.
[1:46:31] - Alright, any questions?
[1:46:33] Very much appreciate your time.
[1:46:35] - The only other comments that I have
[1:46:38] since y'all asked Yeah, you know, I,
[1:46:42] I'll echo Bill's comments.
[1:46:44] I, I think the building is beautiful.
[1:46:46] The, the proposed welcome center.
[1:46:49] I am concerned about the size of the building
[1:46:53] as well as the size of the museum building, you know, at
[1:47:00] what's arguably the building's, you know, the, the,
[1:47:03] at least the location where the museum building is
[1:47:07] that's gonna overwhelm that A three A which is a,
[1:47:11] just a straight up three story facade
[1:47:15] is gonna overwhelm that space.
[1:47:16] I think the massing may be a little much
[1:47:19] should look at options as to stepping that back.
[1:47:25] You know, it might cut into the, the planned event space
[1:47:30] there on the second floor.
[1:47:31] Obviously the museum is a priority for this town.
[1:47:35] I don't know if an another event space is,
[1:47:39] but I don't like the the look of that.
[1:47:42] I think it's gonna be almost overwhelming to that area.
[1:47:46] And you know, you pointed out one of the first size what
[1:47:50] that area that is now a natural buffer looks terrible.
[1:47:53] And, and it could be, you know, it, it could be
[1:47:56] so much more, but it is a green space
[1:47:59] and it, it's not building and concrete
[1:48:02] and, you know, white slats
[1:48:04] and I will say the design with those kind of slats,
[1:48:08] wooden slats, number one, I doubt whether
[1:48:11] that's a timeless design for over the next 50 years.
[1:48:14] And number two, it actually makes it look bigger.
[1:48:18] So I I would be very concerned about the massing in
[1:48:21] that area as well as, you know, in, in building two,
[1:48:28] you know, again I like the concept and,
[1:48:30] and the general designs, they look great,
[1:48:34] but that deck may be oversized and it's,
[1:48:37] and it, what I'm concerned about is it seems like
[1:48:40] that building footprint is,
[1:48:42] is protruding in the East Meadow drive
[1:48:44] and is that necessary along with you have, you know,
[1:48:48] what's been designated is two popup retail spaces,
[1:48:52] you know, is that wasted space?
[1:48:54] Is that space that's ever gonna be used?
[1:48:56] What shops are you gonna be able to put there
[1:48:59] that are gonna thrive economically?
[1:49:02] You're not in Vail Village.
[1:49:04] Are people really gonna stop and shop there?
[1:49:07] I i, I think that that's something that needs
[1:49:10] to be debated a little bit more.
[1:49:12] Maybe the size, you know, you take away a little bit of
[1:49:15] that outdoor space
[1:49:17] and you take away those retail spaces,
[1:49:20] you can reconfigure a building that's a little less large
[1:49:25] but still serves the purpose of having some
[1:49:29] restaurant space, some gathering space
[1:49:33] and it just being a much nicer building in general.
[1:49:36] So those are my comments.
[1:49:39] - Thank you. Anybody else comments?
[1:49:42] Only thing I had was just
[1:49:45] the office space in building one kind of has echoes to me
[1:49:48] of the Ford Park discussion where, you know,
[1:49:52] make sure we're not overburdening civic infrastructure
[1:49:55] with offices that may not necessarily need to be there
[1:49:59] or at least, you know, maybe need to be right sized.
[1:50:01] I mean I counted on the, I counted like 10 desk space
[1:50:06] spaces on that upstairs rendering.
[1:50:10] Not including the separate conference area, conference room,
[1:50:13] the one that the small conference room off to the side
[1:50:15] that doesn't count the two bigger ones.
[1:50:18] I think having this break room space
[1:50:19] for bus drivers is critical.
[1:50:21] They work hard for us and having good space
[1:50:22] but for them is important.
[1:50:26] But I would guess that 30 to 40%
[1:50:30] of the floor area in
[1:50:31] that building just looking at it is office space.
[1:50:34] And is that approximately right you think?
[1:50:40] I think it's probably a little less than that just
[1:50:43] 'cause there's so much transit waiting area,
[1:50:45] but completely understand
[1:50:46] the comment where you're coming from.
[1:50:48] Yeah. And if you know, hey this is an expensive project,
[1:50:51] if we need to right size that to bring it into it's doable.
[1:50:54] I think that's important to do. Sure.
[1:50:57] - Absolutely. Thanks.
[1:51:03] Okay, I'm up. I would echo the impulse
[1:51:08] to right size office and potentially conference space.
[1:51:11] I heard a lot of uncertainty about
[1:51:14] who might be using the conference space.
[1:51:16] I'm not saying we don't need it, you guys know more about
[1:51:18] that than I do as I speak today.
[1:51:21] But there, it feels to me like some unallocated,
[1:51:25] maybe somebody will want this conference space.
[1:51:28] We're making a big commitment to, to acquire
[1:51:31] that space without a fairly clear vision on
[1:51:34] who would want it and how it would be used.
[1:51:39] I really like what I experienced as sort of the breakdown
[1:51:45] in the affect of this building into smaller chunks
[1:51:49] as you descend into Vail Village.
[1:51:51] I'm very sensitive to losing the green space here.
[1:51:56] This is much more palatable than I would've guessed
[1:52:03] provided that the, that the remaining landscaping is really
[1:52:06] robust and really attended to.
[1:52:09] I agree with John that right now what's on the west side
[1:52:13] is undervalued and under attended
[1:52:16] and under cared for.
[1:52:20] I think this could, could be better,
[1:52:21] but we need to be really diligent about maintaining a robust
[1:52:25] feeling of green space there.
[1:52:27] It can be concentrated but it needs, it needs to be there.
[1:52:34] And then slide 57,
[1:52:39] I believe that those, there's a, there's a demarcation
[1:52:43] of the view corridor there.
[1:52:48] I think it's about where the person in the black coat in the
[1:52:51] drawing is standing and I wanna be sure
[1:52:53] that we're aware of that.
[1:52:56] That's a, that's an impact to the remainder
[1:52:58] of our code past that.
[1:53:01] Very impressive. Thank you. Thank you.
[1:53:06] - So that leaves me
[1:53:08] and cj I am still
[1:53:14] confused maybe that first slide, Heather is the best one
[1:53:17] to talk about this bus stop conve congestion
[1:53:21] in front of the museum.
[1:53:22] Especially, you know, I concur with John's comments on
[1:53:27] how those LA walls are gonna make it look really high
[1:53:31] and big and massive in, in the building itself.
[1:53:35] So, which, you know, I I like the idea
[1:53:37] that it's allowing the museum to have a larger draw
[1:53:41] that people can enjoy it more
[1:53:43] and that the access is great 'cause it's street level.
[1:53:46] But again, you know, you're causing an issue
[1:53:48] with people getting on and off the bus there
[1:53:50] and people coming and going out of the museum.
[1:53:52] Which actually I think the museum entrance is further
[1:53:54] to the right, but the windows are there
[1:53:56] and there's, it just seems to me it is pretty tight.
[1:54:00] So then on that first slide, after the one with Zerman
[1:54:04] and Pete Seibert and, sorry, it's not working right now.
[1:54:07] Oh, okay. I I don't have the number
[1:54:10] but I, it was the one we were looking at
[1:54:12] before that the other busts heading to the east is in front
[1:54:16] of where the real estate agent is now for Eng Vol Volker,
[1:54:21] it looks like where those, that one bus is
[1:54:23] and there's two buses parked in front of
[1:54:26] the museum building.
[1:54:29] Is that what I'm seeing there?
[1:54:31] So are those, is this the right side?
[1:54:33] Yeah, on the left side in front
[1:54:34] of building four there's two gray blocks.
[1:54:38] - Yeah. Along East Meadow Drive. Pardon?
[1:54:40] Along along East, south East Meadow Drive. Yeah.
[1:54:43] And I would say the two buses are in the location
[1:54:46] for the westbound stop.
[1:54:49] Right. The eastbound stop would be
[1:54:50] basically where it is today.
[1:54:52] You see the small shelter just to the left of the,
[1:54:57] - It's next to the right - There. Right. Theron Gore
[1:54:58] - Right there.
[1:54:59] So if, so that other bus on the left side,
[1:55:02] which I think is in front of the real estate building,
[1:55:05] is going to have to, it can,
[1:55:06] they can pass there like it's not too tight
[1:55:09] 'cause it looks like that one's pulled in a bit.
[1:55:11] I just, I feel like that east,
[1:55:14] the westbound bus stop could be better utilized in front
[1:55:17] of again, that space where the pop-up retail is,
[1:55:20] which may not be needed
[1:55:21] and there could be a bus shelter there like there is now
[1:55:24] with the kids tiles in there.
[1:55:27] I think that's really cute just
[1:55:29] because yes, when people come down now they're not,
[1:55:31] they're coming straight down the stairs now.
[1:55:33] So there's a bus right there on the left.
[1:55:35] But at this point with the way this is designed,
[1:55:37] they're gonna come out more kind
[1:55:39] of facing southwest there as opposed to Right.
[1:55:43] Exactly where that bus stop is at this point.
[1:55:45] So it would reduce some of that
[1:55:48] people coming down the stairs
[1:55:49] and going, there's a bus coming.
[1:55:51] Oh. And not understanding, you know,
[1:55:53] that there's a stop there, but instead it's further back
[1:55:55] to the left or if Theron Gore to the right
[1:55:56] and they head west, they're going in front
[1:55:58] of the museum where the bus stop is.
[1:55:59] So I just, I think that there'll be congestion in there.
[1:56:02] I just think that's gonna be a flow issue. Seriously.
[1:56:05] And then that little tiny like, you know, a-frame
[1:56:07] that you were talking about is, is just yes, that's it.
[1:56:09] There is where it is currently. So, you know, that's fine.
[1:56:14] You know that it, it's still there
[1:56:16] as it is today working fine.
[1:56:18] So that was my one comment on that flow.
[1:56:21] And then the other thing is I think with the,
[1:56:23] the cafe space in building number two, you know,
[1:56:27] it could be like a cafeteria size,
[1:56:30] it looks like a cafeteria basically.
[1:56:32] So you could go through, you could have a few vendors,
[1:56:33] you could do food truck type thing
[1:56:34] and they're sort of like Avanti and Gold Peak.
[1:56:37] But I also agree in that it's big
[1:56:40] and it might take away from businesses in town
[1:56:43] and that worries me to have two cafes that are both going
[1:56:48] to perhaps take customers away from in town restaurants.
[1:56:52] I love the deck. It is the best one.
[1:56:54] Like if you go to the Vail Brewing Company in Solaris,
[1:56:57] that is a wonderful deck.
[1:56:59] And that's kind of what that reminds me of is how
[1:57:01] that would get that sun exposure.
[1:57:02] And it'd be great to be able to see the mountain
[1:57:04] and you're looking up over the bridge and at international.
[1:57:07] So it's a super viewing area.
[1:57:09] And, and I do wonder, you know, there's a lot
[1:57:11] of people in the, in the rendering
[1:57:12] who are in their ski booths and their skis and stuff.
[1:57:14] Are people gonna go up there
[1:57:16] after skiing, potentially wait for their bus for an hour
[1:57:19] or something if they miss it?
[1:57:20] So I, I mean I just feel like it is maybe a little big.
[1:57:24] So I agree with, I echo the comments
[1:57:26] of my fellow commissioners here.
[1:57:29] And then the third thing I really wanna
[1:57:31] commend you guys on is the comment
[1:57:34] that you made about this being a shelter
[1:57:38] during the times that the road I 70 closed.
[1:57:42] That's excellent. So then that sort of brings me back
[1:57:44] to the fact that that restaurant may be
[1:57:47] well used if it's big, if the road closes as much
[1:57:50] as it has in years past.
[1:57:52] So it could be lucrative, you know, back
[1:57:54] to Bill's original comments about
[1:57:56] how many people come through that every day.
[1:57:58] So that pretty much sums up what I have to say,
[1:58:00] but I, again, I, I compliment you guys.
[1:58:02] I I was really impressed when I was looking at it first.
[1:58:04] It was hard to imagine,
[1:58:05] but you did such a great job in setting up step by step.
[1:58:08] So thank you very much.
[1:58:10] - Yeah, and I would just add on that.
[1:58:11] I think, I think that that is, that is certainly a conflict
[1:58:14] with the food and beverage services.
[1:58:15] And are you taking away from Vail Village?
[1:58:17] Are you being additive? I think the goal of the council was
[1:58:21] when providing additional food services, how do we make more
[1:58:23] of La Cantina something that's reasonably affordable,
[1:58:26] you know, that's subsidized to a degree in some form.
[1:58:29] And then at the same time, who's be mad at us?
[1:58:33] 'cause now we're providing cheap food to everybody
[1:58:34] because we're not gonna just say locals only a great,
[1:58:37] so there's, there's definitely gonna have be a balance,
[1:58:39] you know, that certainly is not, you know, it's, it's,
[1:58:42] it's kind of on the fringe of the discussions.
[1:58:44] How does this really work? But I think that's,
[1:58:47] that's certainly a, a topic that will need to be discussed
[1:58:50] - Further.
[1:58:51] I, I mean, but you get into that level detail for something
[1:58:53] that candidly is gonna happen eight to 10 years from now.
[1:58:57] We don't know. Right. You know, I mean, I, I agree.
[1:59:00] I think Avanti has been a huge plus
[1:59:03] for this community on so many different levels.
[1:59:06] And you know, they use it as meeting space, event space.
[1:59:11] You see organizations use it
[1:59:13] and that same model could happen here,
[1:59:16] but until, until you're two years out,
[1:59:20] you don't know what's gonna work.
[1:59:22] So, I mean, in some ways I just think this is creative,
[1:59:25] you know, so kudos.
[1:59:28] But you know, it's, it's obviously gonna be phased over
[1:59:32] a decade or longer and, but, you know,
[1:59:37] but I like the, the creativity and the thinking.
[1:59:41] So
[1:59:43] - Any final comments from commissioners?
[1:59:46] - No, - I'll keep it brief
[1:59:49] and just say, I, I do agree with the concerns that have been
[1:59:52] expressed about the size and mass of this.
[1:59:55] And also, you know, practicality relative to
[2:00:00] how it will impact
[2:00:05] users not in the building and, and you know, whether
[2:00:08] or not this is a, a good place for this grand of a vision.
[2:00:13] But yeah, I appreciate the detailed overview here.
[2:00:18] - Thanks cj. There's no further comments.
[2:00:22] Thanks for your time, guys.
[2:00:23] Appreciate the presentation. No, thank you. Thank you.
[2:00:25] - Appreciate it. Thank - You. Appreciate it.
[2:00:29] - Heather, anything else for us
[2:00:31] - The next meeting?
[2:00:32] No new items were noticed
[2:00:34] and it looks like nothing has been continued to
[2:00:37] that next meeting, so most likely it will be canceled.
[2:00:40] But stay tuned and we'll,
[2:00:42] - What is happen?
[2:00:45] - What is happening, right. Yeah.
[2:00:48] So we will gear up for the month of October.
[2:00:53] So we'll send that out to you guys just to confirm.
[2:00:57] All right. And that's it. Thank you for your time as always.
[2:00:59] - Great. Appreciate it. If there's nothing else from
[2:01:02] commissioners, is there a motion to adjourn? Move to
[2:01:04] - Adjourn. Second
[2:01:05] - Is a second.
[2:01:06] All in favor, please say aye. A Aye. All opposed?
[2:01:10] We are adjourned. Thank you.