That is pretty promising from a public sector perspective. Again, I'm quite sure that there
are people who reject just from the get-go the notion of public participation in such deals.
But this is Baltimore County's and Towson's response to the fact that it is becoming increasingly
difficult to attract top-flight employers. Why? Because downtown Columbia is being redeveloped.
Because Hanover and Anne Rondo County is very nice. Because there is a harbor east. There's
a harbor point. There's a port Covington. There's a locus point. And all of these
These areas are competing with Towson for the most prestigious employers, the highest
paying employers in the region.
And we really do not have a response yet to that.
Towson Row is our response and it's a good one.
So that is our analysis.
I know that this county council has a lot of deliberations.
It's a serious issue.
$16.4 million is $16.4 million and it's important.
But there might be people in the room who feel that this means less money for
more playgrounds, less money for school construction, less money for public safety.
In fact, if you look at the cash flows, early in the next decade, and many of these payments
are made by the county early on, but after those few years, the net fiscal impact of
this term is sharply positive, more than $3 million per year, just looking at the
taxes generated by the development itself, and by the year of 2040, we're talking
about $4.8 million in incremental net revenues to this county, above and beyond any contributions
that it's making, and its contributions by that point will event it, and that doesn't
include income tax. It's a big number. And so ultimately this project means more money
for school construction, more money for teachers, more money for public safety, more money
for our exquisite park system. And that's my report. Thank you, Will, for the opportunity.
Thank you.
Yes.
Thank you, Mr. Anderson, and certainly appreciate your assessment.
Mr. Arnie.
Let me just say.
I could not have done a better job on the assessment myself.
You did a fine job.
So thank you very much.
Thank you, Councilman.
Not really a question, but I appreciate the comment.
Oh, yeah.
No, that was it for now.
I reserve their balance of my time.
Councillor Marks.
Thank you very much.
I have a number of questions.
I'll give some of them to you and some of them to any future witnesses.
A question I've gotten from quite a few constituents.
Why a grant versus a loan?
That's a great question.
Actually, Will, did you want to, your hand at that?
You've been part and parcel of negotiation with me.
Well we've got we've got a bunch of finance questions here some of these
direct finance questions I'll ask that either our chief administrative officer
or our finance officer takes.
In the negotiations from the very beginning we
took a we we took a very close look at exactly how we had structured the deal
at Towson West, the Centermark deal. Many of you the county had the county
Money has made contributions both to 43 when it contributed with the state and put 20 percent
into the project there on the state road.
We've also contributed dollars into Owings Mills and that again was in conjunction with
the state where the state put money in and the county put money in.
We've also done it at CINEMARC and in the process of CINEMARC, CINEMARC the developer
took advantage not only of the revitalization tax credit but also raised the issue
very early on that the theater was also going to generate 10% admission taxes.
And they were right about that.
And we took a look at that and we structured the deal based upon the estimate of moviegoer
activity and the admission taxes and calculating a number that we added to the revitalization
tax credit present value.
We did exactly the same thing here in order to, because this hotel would not exist
without this particular project, it's building a hotel, we have a number of rooms that
that we could peg to, look at vacancy rates,
look at the dollars to be generated per room,
P, present value it back to a number,
and that's the 16.4 million dollar number you've seen.
I think the discussion about roads is apples and oranges.
I mean, I used to work for the federal highway
administration, so I know that states partner
with federal government on 80-20 split,
and that's what we did with 43.
This is public-private, so I think
that's a little different.
What if the hotel fails?
We've up fronted this money.
What happens if it fails?
I just look at Baltimore City.
Let me finish.
I just look at Baltimore City, where the city put an awful lot of money into that enterprise,
and I think it's had some failures over the years.
Well, sir, I would prefer not to get into any discussion about any tips that Baltimore City has done and constructed.
it. This hotel is of modest size. We're talking about a hotel in the mid-200s, rooms. We took
a look at those numbers to see if they made sense in terms of us, in terms of what happens
elsewhere and what hotels we have elsewhere in the general town scenario. Quite frankly,
I don't believe that that is the most is likely to happen and and quite frankly
nor do I nor do I believe that based upon the investment that the developers
making here as you heard it's a 350 million dollar development of which the
county has got 26 million of an already existing credit that they were
otherwise entitled to versus and the negotiation of this present value
number so quite frankly we when we took a look at these numbers we did
I did not think that that was likely to happen.
Okay.
I thought a good part of the analysis was the property tax revenue
that would be generated by this project relative to what's there right now.
This was something that came up repeatedly during the Towson-Gateway discussion.
And could you, Mr. Anderson, talk about the property tax revenue being
generated right now versus the project that built out?
Sure.
And if you look at, I think we've shared the summary in the back appendix B of the Sage Policy Study that summarizes some of the flows of money, and I think this is a good reference point for revenues coming in.
and Mr. Rousseau pointed to this when he talked about an acceleration coming in
out years. The net county outflow next to the column that says county revenue.
So you can see property tax revenues currently $145,000 on the property
which sounds about right if anyone's seen the condition of the property right
now we don't have anything there. But as each element comes online so over
So this first five years while the county is making its contributions, provided that
the developer is prepared to add each component and has pulled permits and is ready, you'll
see that the revenues start climbing.
So at no point do we actually have property tax not being collected.
You'll see it jump from the $145 up to the $2 million and hone its way up to $3.7
million.
Right.
In our report, we put that by fiscal year 2022, it's $3.2 million.
and by your fiscal year 40 it's 3 point sorry 4.7 million in property tax
collections from this project okay that today as I say 140 as will said 145
thousand so the increment is massive
I guess wanted to just to make it real
clear on that particular issue in terms of if it were to fail the issue is as
I understand that you could correct me if I'm wrong.
If things go exceedingly well with your multipliers,
we get paid back in eight to 10 years.
If it goes as projected, we get paid back 12 to 14 years.
If things don't go that well,
they didn't take us 15, 18 years to get paid back.
But as long as the project is there,
we're going to get our money back.
True?
That's true as long as the question is the payback period.
I will say that there are no guarantees in life.
the Hilton Hotel downtown, the Convention Center Hotel,
I believe was a $300 million project, over 700 rooms.
This is a different scale, but it's also a different market.
If you look at how business operates in Baltimore County,
where do business people meet?
Pikesville Hilton, they meet in Hunt Valley,
the Hunt Valley Inn, they meet in White Marsh.
There's not many places for people to meet in Towson.
This market is-
And there's no conference center either.
And this market is starving for this hotel.
Even that doesn't guarantee success.
But we're not talking about a saturated market.
We're talking about a very much underserved market.
And by the way, this hotel will not be staying in isolation.
It will be surrounded by retail space, office space,
so on and so forth.
And it's very well situated.
Very close off 695, so on and so forth.
I think we know where this is.
And so no guarantees here.
But it seems to me quite likely
from an economic perspective, this hotel is a success.
Councilwoman Oman?
Thank you.
Mr. Oman, could you please address once again the $43 million, which is a number that we
keep hearing as a council and people are saying, why are we giving away $43 million?
Can you, would you mind going over that yet again so we can understand it?
Certainly.
There are two pieces to the $43 million.
The one piece relates to the revitalization tax credit.
And based upon, and the revitalization tax credit has been in the Baltimore County Code for a couple of decades.
What that provide is for is that in a situation where an investor invests in excess of $10 million,
dollars, they are able to take the enhanced property taxes and defer them.
The deal that I mentioned before that we struck related to bringing the
cinema mark here and the theaters there was that we did a present value of
that stream of payments that the county could otherwise expect to receive
during that period of ten years. We discounted it back to come to a present
value number. And that present value number was a contribution into the financing of the
project. That helped that project go the way this does. It contributes to the financing.
In return, the county will get the property taxes that would be paid over that period
of time. The separate issue has to do with the hotel, the grant for the hotel, and it's
It's tied back to the 8% transient occupancy, what's commonly called the motel hotel tax
that the county receives, and in that particular case, we again, we took a look at the number
of rooms to be constructed.
The county gets its hotel occupancy tax off of the value of the room rentals.
It does not collect off sales of food or the rent of conference rooms.
It gets that money, that money may be taxed by the state, a sales tax, but what we get is charged back to the rooms.
So you take a look at the number of rooms, you take a look at the market rate for the rooms, the potential occupancy of the rooms versus the vacancy rate.
And you project, and you take that stream of payments, you discount it back in order to make that contribution.
Now, the county will then collect the 8% on the rooms.
and and so that will happen and and that's the structure of how the deal was
went on the one hand and already existing property tax credit that's been
in the law for quite some time we will instead of not collecting the property
tax we will collect the property tax and we'll make an upfront payment in
this case we will collect the motel hotel tax and we're making an upfront
payment because that because those that stream of revenue would not be there
if they did not build the hotel.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Councilman Bevan.
Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I would also like to make a comment.
The Towson Marriott, will that Marriott be closing in 2018?
They're turning that into student housing.
That is my understanding.
So weren't there be a more, certainly more of a need
for a hotel once that closes?
Yes.
Thank you, not so.
Thank you.
I have a question for Mr. Homan.
Mr. Homan, when looking at these fund advances, fiscal year 18, 2.3, fiscal year 19, 18.5, fiscal year 20, 5.5, and then 5.5, 5.5, 5.5, the 18.5, is that coming from unappropriated surplus?
That will be, it's pay go, so it's a combination of projected revenue and or surplus, right?
The source to be determined as we move into the budget process.
Okay.
And then I have a question for Anibon and Will, is some people, you know, free market
capitalists, so to speak, they might say, hey, why don't you just let the market
and then let the market decide with private investment and if they can't build it within
private investment, maybe it shouldn't be built, what would be your response to say a free market
capitalist just saying that they should all be private?
Right, so it's a great question. I face a similar issue in Frederick where they're talking about
building a conference center hotel there and other issues as well. Here's the thing.
We are competing with other jurisdictions and their public sectors have participated
aggressively in deals, and not just the city. In downtown Columbia, with Howard Hughes, Howard
County is participating in that deal, a fairly significant tax reform and financing deal.
We see similar things in and around the county and elsewhere. So first of all, that's the
nature of competition. The second thing is that the public participation provides the
public sector with an opportunity, as representatives of the people, to participate in the project
to help shape the project. What does the community want? It wants jobs. What does it want? It
wants a better built environment. What does it want? It wants more business activity,
more taxable activity. Does this project do that? Yes. And so if the question is can
Can we attract private capital to both?
The answer is yes, perhaps some, but we wouldn't get the project that we want, we wouldn't get
the economic impacts that we want, and we would lose market share, at least theoretically,
to Columbia, to Hanover, to downtown Baltimore, so on and so forth. And we need to have a vibrant
economy right here. And so I think that's the answer to that, that the private market,
in many cases, is not really functioning here. Public sectors across the region are
participating with developers and this is our way and by the way relative to
other communities the ask for public participation here is quite small and I
guess the follow-up on that and then I see a bunch of hands is at what level do
you think appropriate where the government should get involved and
participate at what threshold you know lots of economic development out there
lots of developers out there should it be 200 million should it be a bigger
goal than that at what point do we get involved and you know try to
to stimulate economic objectives, I guess.
Thank you, Councilman Quirk, Chairman Quirk.
The public sector is involved in everything.
I mean, everyone that's in this room right now,
the public sector allowed them to get here,
because they came on roads, they came on sidewalks,
so on and so forth.
The whole thing is a public-private partnership.
And there is this view out there that,
some people have the view that private sector is good,
public sector is inefficient.
Some people have the view that private sector
is corrupt public sector goods. The whole nation is a public-private partnership. Everything
is public-private. Now, it gets tricky when you have deals like this and public participation
is 16.4 million, the right number, all those kinds of issues. But this is the public sector
and private sector moving in the same direction, creating jobs, creating broadly shared prosperity.
That's what this is about. And we're doing this for our county. And the folks in,
you know, in Ellicott City are doing that for their county. And the folks in
Westminster, I presume we're trying to do it for their county and so on and so forth.
And so, you know, the public sector is in some sense always involved.
And we've become accustomed to the notion that counties finance roads and bridges and
sidewalks and so on and so forth.
But we also, I think, have become increasingly comfortable with the notion that, well, the
public sector participates in economic development, and it's trying to shape this built environment
or the economy such that there's a larger middle class.
And there's going to be a lot of middle income jobs produced by this development
during the construction phase, and thereafter.
Councilwoman Oman?
Excuse me, can I add to that?
Oh, I'm sorry.
Well, sorry.
Pardon me, Councilwoman.
To the point of competition, so the idea
that we have a very mobile set of population
that we're chasing here.
Our kids, young people around the country,
people make decisions now and have a lot of options
to move quickly.
The reason that we are building schools
at the rate we are is to win the quality of life game, right?
And projects like this at Towson Row are projects
that you wait to say is this, will this have a factor
that helps win the quality of life game or is it something
that they could pick up and leave
when they have a better deal facing them in Texas
in a year or something, right?
So these types of anchors that are knit
into the community add more weight when you're looking
at the calculation and they are a unique calculation
every time. The deals are different absolutely every time. But when we're competing you look at
what can stay and what can grow in a multiplier many years down the road. So excuse me for interrupting
Councilwoman. Thank you. And maybe you can answer this. Has Baltimore County done this sort of
deal before? Yes, yes. So we've been involved I mean right here in Towson so we helped at
Towson Square with the garage and now what's becoming a part of Circle East. We were in the
investment building with Towson University's logo on it. We've been
involved in projects like GM out in White Marsh trying to help them do
expansions. We've been down in the chairs district at the research park
helping the research park come online and stay online. So we've been
participating in deals like this for many many years. The commercial
revitalization district program has been very successful and used in all
districts. This one looks a little bit different than the others but then again
they all look different from one another. And how much private money is in the
initial investment? So in the Towson Road there's $350 million in private
dollars. Our 16 million is where we is where we point to a leverage of 20 to
one or better than 20 to one of private dollars excuse me private dollars
to public dollars.
Thank you.
Councilman Katch?
Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Councilwoman Bevin's asked the question
about the hotel that Towson University is purchasing.
Did Towson University make them a deal they couldn't refuse?
Or is the hotel not doing well?
I'm not certain.
I think that's one we can direct to Towson University.
I think it was just a solemn bear.
Yeah, I think it was just a solemn bear.
How did interest in the hotel?
So they're no longer going to be in the hotel business.
Again, I think that's one for Towson University, sir.
No, I'm just curious if we're going to re,
in other words, if this hotel is going to be successful,
then the one that Towson University is taking over,
has it been successful?
That might be an example of how things
may go in the future.
And I don't, you'll have an answer, anyone have an answer to how that hotel's doing?
Sure.
Good.
On the answer you have
to convert an area, I think you'll find that the community is very upset.
The area at most of the time is almost 90% of the sharing group can be involved with all of you.
Okay.
Desperately.
Yeah.
Okay, good.
Thank you.
I'm glad you could answer that for me.
Okay, is the hotel going to be one that can sponsor conventions or is it just going to be a hotel?
Well, I don't believe they have secured their hotel tenant yet, but at the size of it, we wouldn't call this a convention center hotel.
Okay, now secondly, looking at the $43 million investment by the county.
I see that the first year that it's going to be cost the taxpayers 18 million.
And then for the next four years after that, which goes in past the next administration,
it's going to be $5,500,000 a year.
Now, is it true that the hotel, the $16 million is based on anticipated revenues
for the next 30 years from the hotel tax?
I'd like to correct one initial statement if I may, sir.
At the beginning, that 18 million,
part of what the county has done to reduce its cash burden
toward that 18 million, reduce it by 2.3 million,
was to sell at appraised market value,
parcels of land and contribute those proceeds back
so that the out of pocket for the county
money is not coming out of the general fund at $18 million.
But then to your question, yeah, the hotel receipts were projected out over the course
of three decades, that's correct.
And the money will be distributed over five years, correct?
That's correct as well.
So as the developer meets the thresholds of that they're prepared to take on a new
component, that's when each disbursement will go.
So it's not a full disbursement at the at the outset. So you're talking about maybe somebody buying a building a custom house
and so and and it's a
Drawal schedule. I assume you have certain
Percent of it done and you've paid the subs etc. Then you're you're eligible for the next
Payment is that about right when when permits have been applied for and it is ready to add an element site such as the hotel
Well, that's when it will trigger that the disbursement is allowed.
Okay, the 26 million,
what I see the revitalization tax credits.
And that is based on the first, on the scale down project.
correct? In other words, this isn't the same project that Caves Valley initially proposed.
This is a scaled down project. The 26 million is based on the present value of future tax
credits on the currently approved development plan, the plan that has come through. Correct.
Okay now what happens if the plans let's say change over the next two or three
years instead of building a let's say 905 bed student housing complex it's five
hundred that's an excellent question there's a number of protections for the
county here. One of them that you're pointing to is that that 26 and a half
minute that is a maximum. So as these elements come in in slightly different
fashion than what's projected when they do come in it will be based on what's
reality but it this is a maximum value not to exceed. So we have two
protections there. We have the the timing of disbursement over five years
when they're ready for pieces and that this is a not to exceed based on whatever the square
footage or the number of hotel rooms actually come in.
Now will the council have any role in this any longer?
If we approve this, then are we, in essence, tying the entire next administration to this
expenditure in the budget?
Well, council has been active in this over the course of a number of years here.
Several approvals have come in, including the development, all through the development
process.
But we are entering into a legally binding contract here in the development.
So it is, the county is participating over these years.
So, that's the question.
The county will be obligated to, in essence,
fund these five years totaling $43 million.
dollars if the what's been approved is actually comes to fruition provided that
the developer meets all the terms of the agreement of which there are many okay
so when then let's say that the developer decides well we're going to
build a 700-bed student facility. How does that work? Where would the county then,
how
would it be calculated, how much less the county is going to contribute and when
would this happen? When would the developer receive less money? Well, on
the timing it'll be when they've come in for approved permits that we're dealing
with each component on how does the calculation change for the county's
participation that one I think I'll defer to finance on how they're how
they calculate down from there
Can you tell me where we are with a high-performance tax credits?
Isn't there a delay of...
And the last question.
question, why the largest amount the first year? Why do we have an $18 million payout
the first year and then $5 million each year after that? Why wouldn't it be divided by
the full thing, $43 million being divided by $5 million and $8.6 million a year? What
What is the thinking?
Well the timing of getting pieces of the program open, student housing, hotel, there's certain
timing around student housing to deliver student housing in time for the new students that
are coming to Towson or Goucher for that matter.
So that's part of it.
There's a cycle around that primary element.
But the other part of it is just if you look at the condition of the site right now,
there is a tremendous amount of infrastructure work that needs to be done.
And that is where most of the costs are at the beginning.
So it's kind of a two-fold reason to need the money upfront early.
With the site as it is today, how much money has been expended so far
in pulling down the buildings and do we know I think that's a question we could
ask the developer I'm not certain so what I'm wondering is this 350 over and
above what's already been spent or does it include what's already been spent that
is one I'd have to do yeah yeah okay so they will be testified yeah they'll be
okay I'm Councilman Markson Councilman almond yeah to address Councilman
catch's point about the hotel and I want to I want to begin by saying Greenberg
Gibbons I think is a sterling reputation and has done some outstanding
projects throughout the county including the shops at Kenilworth here in
Towson. There is I think capacity for another hotel in Towson like has been
described. The Chamber of Commerce did a survey that showed that employers
such as Stanley Black and Decker use that hotel significantly, and that the additional
hotel space in the area cannot accommodate what we would need if the maria closes, and
nothing replaces it.
So I think there is the capacity for this sort of complex, but it's our job to ask
questions, and that's why I asked that about what happens if the hotel fails.
I think you were wondering an interesting point about whether the council has a role in this once we approve the contract.
And so I asked Mr. Holman, suppose the county's financial situation deteriorates.
Is there a way for the county to change course and undo this funding commitment?
it. Well, I'm glad you brought the timing of this. There's an old saying in politics
that you release things on a Friday that might have total support, that have some controversy.
I found out about this the Friday after Thanksgiving returning from the Eastern Shore, and I think
my colleagues were in the same boat and in a press release of all things, and here we
are having to make a decision on something of a considerable magnitude, and I think that
puts us under the gun.
Could we have been brought into this at an earlier stage?
So you think having one work session on this, one month to decide if a $43 million deal is
Yes, that's enough time.
I think it's an injustice to Mr. Gibbons, who is an outstanding developer who has a deadline
to meet.
I think it's an injustice to the citizens who could have had more time to look at this.
And I think if we had been briefed on this in October or November, maybe we would have
been in a different situation than reading about an enterprise release the Friday after
Thanksgiving.
I do want to ask Mr. Anderson something about the garage and I'm just going to read this from an email I got from one of my constituents.
This is regarding the lease. Quote, it permits the developer to charge whatever it wants for use of the space.
I used to park in that garage and I can tell you it was absolutely jam-packed every day.
Parking is only available in the roof on most days and some day it's closed.
Even if the county moves its fleet vehicles to a different garage,
The fact remains that two next door buildings have insufficient parking for its commercial residential tenants
Is there any prohibition against the developer raising the cost of those other businesses and residents who have no other viable parking option nearby?
So the question is is there a prohibition against the changing of the rates based on the market, right?
I think I'll defer that one as well
right now than anyone who's constructed a lease for that plot knowing that the county has a reversion rate of fundamental error in business records, because the county has had that version of it from the beginning.
And the county has never signed
any of these beyond July or the night.
Anything else?
Councilwoman Allman.
Yes, this is from Mr. Bussill.
In light of the fact that our income tax distribution came in lower than expected what is the revised
projected surplus balance do you know that yet?
No I don't and the surplus has to be for our triple AAA bond rating 5% is that correct
And we as a county usually try and keep 10%.
Yes, this has been a fiscally conservative county for a long time, for as long as anyone can remember.
With this information, do you have any idea if we're going to be able to keep that 10%?
You know, this is what I would say to that councilman. It depends a lot on the economy.
And one of the reasons, a couple of reasons,
that the income tax revenues that come in
as people have thought is one,
the region didn't add quite as many jobs
as people had thought it would.
Other regions seem to have picked up for some reason
in a way that the Baltimore region simply has not.
Could be all kinds of things, city dynamics,
so on and so forth, but it just hasn't happened here
the way it has happened in Atlanta,
Las Vegas, Los Angeles, many other markets,
It's Minneapolis.
Second thing is that with the unemployment rate in our state
now neatly below 4%, there has been this notion
that incomes would grow faster.
And therefore, the taxable base would grow faster.
But despite the fact that there is almost one job
opening now in this country for every unemployed citizen,
6 million job openings, 7 million unemployed in this country,
wages are just not growing that rapidly.
Over the past year, in our country,
2.5% growth in average hourly earnings.
Now, we march into 2018 with more economic momentum
as a region and as a country
than we've seen in at least a decade.
Next year will be another good year for job creation.
And we have seen in the most recent data a pickup,
not only in wage growth,
but also in the pace of job creation.
So I think that in 2018 at least
from a calendar year perspective,
and I know we're talking about fiscal years,
but from a calendar year perspective,
we're in quite good shape as a county,
quite good shape.
And I think we'll be able to maintain that AAA bond rating
Thank you councilwoman Bevin's and councilman Crandall. Yes, I just want to switch gears back to the parking garages
Councilman Mark said previously I'm not sure sure my question was answered
So I I'm looking at the agreement that the developer would have with the county with the garage
I believe that's the garage I park in I don't know the necessity of parking nowadays, but I know in
2004 when I came to work for the county there was an eight-year waiting list to
get into the garages across the street. Most people were parking up on Wehr
Avenue or down at the library or paying eight dollars a day. So once this
agreement if this agreement would happen is there going to be a priority
for county employees? First I'm not sure how many employees Mr. Hyman can
probably answer this, how many employees are currently parking in that garage and will
they be promised that parking or will they lose their parking?
First of all, not all employees are subsidized in terms of parking right now.
Many employees have chosen not to take potential subsidized parking at places like
Liberia and Tulber and they're paying other garages that are not revenue-authority garages
and they're paying rates that, quite frankly, go up as high as $125 a month.
Why would they do that?
Why would they pay a higher rate in another garage?
Why would they do that?
Because they've chosen not to walk the distance from the library, the Tolberg garage,
or the Cinemac garage, they've chosen to be closer.
Okay.
And they've been willing to pay that amount of money.
We know that there is capacity at the other revenue authority garages.
We are going to take advantage of that of the capacity by reassigning spaces.
We have to work through that because there's obviously there are situations we have where
employees have physical issues.
They might be eligible for handicapped tags from the MVA.
We accommodate that now on an individual basis.
We're going to be looking at that and who the parkers are in that garage and
go through that.
It is not as heavily a public employee garage as Baltimore is in terms of that, and we know that and we are going to work through that.
Thank you.
And just a real quick piggyback on that one is I saw the base rate of possible rent would be about $400,000 per year. How does that compare to the current revenue that we attain?
We don't receive any revenue from the car that garage that garage is obviously operated by the revenue authority and they currently have that garage right in their overall sheet.
The fact of the matter is that the $400,000 rental is not a market rental.
However, at the end of the deal is designed around the fact that the county wants to sell that property to the developer at a market rate.
That's right. So what will happen is there'll be a as the as the arrangement with the Revenue Authority indicates the county will
add to the life by investing in that garage to add to its life to take that garage out to 2034. That will enhance the market value of the
garage. The developer will pay $400,000 a year for the first three years and if the county declares a surplus and offers
And they declined that. Then it goes up to a market rate of rent. That is a market that
is not in a very advisory or smart move on the part of the developer. Any more than I
think not selling the garage for market value would be smart on the part of the county.
Got it. Councilman Crandall. Sure. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Sage Policy
policy group did a great job on telling us why we should do this, but I haven't seen
a risk assessment, and there has to have been a risk assessment on this done somewhere.
So I know that there's language in the contract about the developer meeting milestones.
I know that there's language about default, so I'm not sure what constitutes default,
what that means.
There seem to be multiple parties that are part of this deal.
So what happens if one of those parties should hit bankruptcy?
So where is the risk assessment and, you know, how we're in the negotiations
and how this thing was put together, how are those risks mitigated?
I think that we're lacking detail on that fundamental issue there.
You don't get into a financing deal this this large without assessing risk
So
on the on the risk mitigation, it's a great point. I mean partly you can
Look at who your partners are in your deal and see what kind of track record they have
One of the reasons we were excited by Greenberg givens coming into this is that track record shows a stellar
Or Sterling is Councilman Marks put it record
So that puts you at ease on the risk but on the risk mitigation part of the way
this was structured on the payments was to mitigate any risk of market changes.
We know we've already seen on this site geologic problems of doing an
underground garage. So there are unknown risks of any project. Stretching out
county contribution over a number of years is a smart way to move the risk
back to the developer so that thresholds are met before the county participation is in there.
So that is the primary vehicle that the county is used to make sure that as each piece is ready,
we're ready to contribute to it and not the other way around.
Would it be helpful for the members to get a copy of the contract that has these milestones in it
and how these risks are mitigated within the contract?
Well, the development agreement contains those elements, sir.
Again, you know, if you're looking at things in terms of risk, you're looking at economic factors.
You're looking at not only the individuals involved, and I agree.
I've been to some of the projects that Greenberg-Gibbons has completed, and they are outstanding.
But again, there are factors that Greenberg-Gibbons can't control, economic, whether causes
construction delays, then that means that our payout period is longer.
So there must have been that assessment done of numerous factors.
Again, what is the risk to the county in terms of financial responsibility for other infrastructure needs that are ancillary to this project?
So I think I would point back to what's in the development agreement.
I know it's very complex in there, but many of these same issues are being asked not just by you,
but by the financial partners that are coming into the to the private developers
So for example, the risks about is there ample parking?
To support this project these are questions that are being asked internally of our partners and their investors as well
So there's a complexity here and not a singular risk assessment document that I think you might be
Referring to so if you if you look into the development agreement
You'll see where each of these contingencies are on the obligations that need to be met or the county participation won't follow
Okay
Now I know that we've done public sector assistance to private projects
For many years in Baltimore County
Have we used the
anticipated
tax credits in a CRD? Have we used those for upfront funding of a project before?
Yes, those twice. So the Towson Investment Building,
so both the Towson City Center and
Towson Square, which is now part of the Circle East.
Okay, so I would...
And Owens Mills, sir.
Okay, so in trying to champion our own CRDs in the seventh district,
what's my criteria for telling potential developers,
this is what the county's going to do?
Well, as you and I have tried to do that in your district,
sir, talk to owners and developers,
and nudge them forward in investments in your district each is individual right so
the what is the potential use what is the market showing and what does the county
need based on that program I think when you look at the CRD it is a it is a very
generous program to incent development in these districts which is why the
county put them in place all those years ago well and
I would venture to
say that the success of that has not been great so
you know I just you know if I
guess I'm doing the natural thing that council members do we're we're staunch
defenders of our own district and we all want our piece of the pie and so you
know I can use 43 million dollars in each of my four CRDs that's for sure
Well, I'm with you there, you know, I'm focused on putting jobs in every one of your districts
and Councilman, you and I are working like maniacs to make sure that the trade point opportunity
puts people in Dundalk and throughout the county back to work.
So I can appreciate what you're trying to do for your constituents and I share that.
And that's why this is such an exciting project because you don't often get an
An economist saying to you, do this project, it's going to bring 2,000 permanent jobs.
Those are numbers that we pay attention to whatever district they're in.
I'd like to point out, Councilman, if it's okay that risk is double-sided here, and there's
a risk that there's going to be a big hole in the ground in downtown Towson for time
at Memorial, that Towson University merit will close and we won't have the requisite
hotel room capacity, meeting space capacity that we need in downtown Towson, that the
student housing is not built and therefore more and more students have to move
into the neighborhoods, which I know that some people don't really want to have happen, that
we don't create 2,000 permanent jobs, that we don't have $92.5 million in income or $221
million in annual business sales. The risks are double-sided here. And the best way to
mitigate those risks is to work with the best, most reliable people. And it's not clear
to me that there's anyone better or more reliable than Greenberg Gibbons in this
part of the country.
Okay. Thank you. Quick question for you guys and maybe Fred is I know
like an average citizen reading say for example the paper might say well 43 million how can
Baltimore County come up with 43 million for this but maybe not 60 million additional
for 120 million for example for a high school. So I think people would ask that question
And so I wouldn't respond to that, but also I'd like to hear if any of you want to address it is,
you know, when I look at this, the $26.6 million that goes in tax credits,
obviously that's credits that they would receive otherwise and we're just fronting that.
So that's money that's already part of this calculation, we're just doing the present value of it.
So what we're really coming down to for a $350 million investment in Towson is about $16.4 million in public participation.
You know, basically about 5% is on the onset of the overall deal.
And so when you look at that, and you look at that 16.4 million,
not only is that 16.4 million, it's actually broken out over five years.
So ultimately, from a Pego standpoint, it's about 3.2 million,
3,286,843 per year for five years where the public is participating.
And even on that, we know that ultimately we covered that after about 12 years.
And so I just think it's important that citizens that will say not understanding kind of how
the numbers are broken down or with the tax credit, they might say, well, 43 million here,
but why not, you know, for another new high school or toward another new high school?
So I just want to be clear about how those numbers definitely are working, because
I think it's easy for somebody to jump to the conclusion, not understanding the
details underneath it.
So saying that, I don't know, and either of the three of you have anything to
I just have one point to that before I ask Fred to weigh in.
Tax receipts never stop coming in the way this is structured.
So while property value is low now,
property taxes are coming in as the property goes up
in assessment, those taxes keep coming to the county.
We are not betting those.
And we are also doing this with pay go.
So we're not loading on a set of debt
for a future application.
So I'll let Fred talk to the decision-making about choosing opportunities which we have
to do every day.
Well, sir, I think you actually answered the question yourself.
I mean, the hotel will generate the 8% tax on the rooms, and quite frankly, if the hotel
hadn't been in the mix here, we wouldn't be talking about what we're talking about
in terms of a separate $16 million from the other funds.
so that specifically we're doing this because the hotel we all identified the
fact that it was a worthy project and need to have a hotel in Towson and it's
going to generate that it's going to generate 8% on the room rents and that
well money will come back to the county over time so you know I think you
answered it yourself when you when you described exactly the structure the
the same, you know, when Ms. Armadass for clarification about that.
Councilor Jones?
Yes.
Thank you, Chairman Perk.
I had a number that was sticking in my mind,
and I was wondering if you could help me with it.
Is it true that the size of this project
is will be 1.2 million square feet, which
is the same size as Towsentown?
Yes. There's similarity in terms of square footage. That's right. Now that square footage is across many, many uses, some of which is retail, some of it's hotel room, some of it's office space. Towson Town is all basically retail space in the food court. But yes, it's similarly scaled. Yeah.
So to break it down, this is a big deal.
It's a very big deal. It's the biggest deal in Towson right now.
Okay, the reason I say that is because I've been reading all the documents that's been
provided.
I've been asking as many questions as I can to make sure that I'm totally understand
what's going on with the $16 million, the $26 million, and the $350 million.
And I am very bullish on Baltimore County.
And I think you said it best, and I was sincere when I said that, you know, I could not say it better myself.
We are competing against all these jurisdictions around us, whether it be Columbia, Baltimore City, other places.
And, you know, I wish we lived in a world where there was no government financing into private industry.
I mean, I wish we lived in a world where we didn't have to help fund the Raven Stadium.
I wish we lived in that world, but we don't.
And if this is what it takes for us to be competitive, for us to be a place where people
want to come and invest money, after all, you know, the 350 million, the remainder
of the 16 million that we're putting in is not small fries.
I think this is just something we have to do, so I'm going to be very supportive of it, the project, because I think the project is good for Towson, is good for Baltimore County, it's going to provide significant jobs, and it's going to provide some revenues that we can use to fund other county services that are very important.
So I'm very thankful to be quite frank that this project is moving forward.
I don't like to hold in the ground that I see out there and people often talk about it.
So in order for us to be the place, we need something to be here.
And this will be a significant improvement to Towson and it will help Baltimore County
and I believe it will help my district as well.
The Randallstown Woodlawn Owings Mills Rices Town area.
So I thank you gentlemen for your work on this issue.
And that's all I have to say, and I'll still say the remainder of my time, just in case.
Yeah, and, you know, I would, you know, thinking about this, I think all the council members,
as well as Baltimore County citizens, need to ask themselves, you know, what is the cost of delay,
or what is the cost of inaction? Here we're very fortunate. We have Brian Gibbons,
so I think everybody recognizes that it's really a national figure.
He's done amazing work, a great developer, great reputation.
We also have CalSTRS, and what I know about capital, because I deal in capital and finance,
is capital will flow where it's most accommodated, where it's best accommodated.
And if we don't accommodate capital and we don't work with capital, guess where it goes?
It goes elsewhere, and it goes elsewhere very quickly.
And so when I think about this, I do think about, on one hand, cost of delay or an action,
you know, maybe this project doesn't move forward, maybe Towson stays an empty lot.
I don't think anybody in Towson wants to see an empty lot where it currently is.
I mean, personally, if this was my district, I'd be ecstatic, you know, 2,000 permanent jobs,
you know, 220 million annual business activity, 92 million in employee compensation.
That's good stuff. That's tax revenues. That's, by the way, how we pay for schools.
That's how we pay for government.
And so I would suggest that council members really think about the cost of an action and delay,
or a no vote versus the possible opportunity
of considering this a little more.
Anybody else?
Mr. Chair.
Councilman Catch?
Yes.
Well, one of you described the 2,000 jobs
that will be created.
I believe you said the average salary
will be slightly below 50.
Right, so I'm the one responsible
for that computation, Councilman.
So 2,000 jobs, some of those are on site.
We call those direct jobs, so there is more than 100,000 square feet of office-based plan for this development.
Our model assumes the following, 185 square feet per office worker,
and it's using parameters like that, similar with the commercial space, I mean the retail space.
You know, hotels have fairly standard staffing models,
and so it's based on the square footage, it's based on the hotel rooms
to figure out what the direct jobs are,
the number of jobs on site.
That's the first part of the computation.
But on top of that, there is a multiplier effect.
And that's when that implant model I was mentioning earlier comes in.
Because the economic impact of the project doesn't stop with that geography.
So as a simple example, the office workers there might go to a restaurant off-site.
They might go shopping at Towson Town Center.
There could be all kinds of different things.
They might send their kids to a public school in the county.
All of that supports employment off-site.
And what the model does is it tells us what the economic multipliers are.
How much of those additional goods and services demanded by the people on that site
will be supplied by other Baltimore County enterprises.
And that's what we call secondary or indirect or induced effects.
And we model that as well.
And that's where we get to the 2,000 total jobs on a county-wide basis.
Some of the jobs actually supported will be outside of the county.
So if somebody working in an office building in Baltimore County decides for a reason
they want to live in Baltimore City, then that's going to support more economic activity there.
And so that's also computer.
We have a statewide economic impact estimate also in the report.
I haven't focused on that. I've been focusing on Baltimore County.
But then that takes you actually above 2,000 jobs, it turns out, when you add in those multiplier effects.
But that's how we get there.
What the medium income in Baltimore County is about $68,000.
Medium household income, we're talking about per employee compensation, so you can have
more than one employee per household, and typically we do, yeah.
Yeah, I understand.
So my question is, when you plug in these figures in your formula, and you came up
with the 2,000 with the average compensation below,
slightly below 50,000.
If there were, if there was a different NICS here,
let's say twice as many offices, half as much student housing,
would the number of jobs then increase
and the income increase or what we, I ask the question.
That's a great question, Councilman.
So if the mix changed, the number of jobs
would change, the average incomes would change.
We can play, you know, one could play with this.
We have modeled the project that has been approved, you know.
But one could develop an endless number of scenarios.
But let's say, for instance, that there
was a smaller retail component
and a larger office component.
Now, typically workers in office buildings
make more than the typical retail worker.
And so with that drive up the average compensation, probably.
Hotel employees on average don't have elevated compensation.
Typical, if you think about hotel maids or other people who are working at hotels,
they're managers of course, but they're also people working at the reception desk.
And that tends to be a low wage segment.
So if you shrunk the hotel footprint and you increase the office footprint,
that would have the same effect.
But in a diverse society like this, you need all kinds of jobs.
jobs, entry-level jobs, middle-income jobs, high-wage jobs.
And this mixed-use development checks all of those boxes.
The goal is not necessarily to provide necessarily one type of job, let's say high-wage.
The goal here is to provide broadly shared opportunity.
And because it's a mixed-use project, this does that.
It doesn't solve all of our issues economically as a region, of course.
It's not that enormous, no project, no single project would be, but I think it moves
the needle in the right direction along every dimension.
Entry level jobs, middle income jobs, highway jobs,
they're all represented in this footprint.
When the county was in negotiations with Greenberg Gibbons,
were different scenarios talked about, for instance,
maybe, I mean, how much input did the county have
as to how much office space,
how much student housing etc was that with the thought of maybe creating more
jobs more higher paying jobs well the development process that's been
completed with the plan that's been completed was the basis of where we
entered in on where the county participates right so the private
developer looked at what will the market bear and we encourage the pieces to
come in that were a true mixed use, right? So I think one of the things that Mr. Basu
didn't point to is the connection with the university. When you think of our university
students starting their careers at, whether it's at Whiting Turner, Stanley Black and
Deckard General Dynamics, or any of the companies that we have, resist social media
on the small scale, we need more of these connective tissues between these institutions,
Right, so seeing a mixed use plan come through that connects and has the attributes the community
is looking for, frankly, on the amenity side, it was a strong development plan to begin
with.
So the county started looking at how can we help bring it to bear and move from a current
gravel lot to bring that to existence.
Thank you.
Sure.
Great.
Any other questions or comments from the council?
We did have a lot of public speakers here today.
Any other questions or comments?
I mean, I'll just say before we start with public speakers,
again, I'll just reiterate, you know,
county looking at investing 3.3 million,
basically for five years, to attract 350 million,
you know, 2,000 permanent jobs,
220 million in annual business activity,
92 million in employee compensation, it seems like a pretty good trade-off.
And so I did want to recognize and appreciate both of you for coming today.
And, you know, Mr. Basu, your study, I think, was quite a great study.
And, well, I appreciate all the work you're doing, the administration's doing.
I mean, I think, again, for Towson Residence, not my district, but if I'm a Towson resident,
I don't want to be sitting here three or five years from now with an empty lot.
You know, I want to see something go when we finally have a developer that, by the way,
is incredibly well respected everywhere, does amazing project, willing to take this risk
and willing to move Towson forward.
And so I just would hope that all the residents and citizens really think about this because
this could be a really great opportunity.
Okay, so with that, we're going to start with our public speakers.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you both for coming in.
And we'll start with our public speakers.
We've got quite a few speakers today.
Each speaker will have up to three minutes.
There'll be a clock, and once the clock stops,
I'd ask you to kindly conclude your remarks.
And so our first speaker today is Mr. Brian Gibbons.
Good afternoon, Mr. Gibbons.
Good afternoon, everybody.
Thank you for allowing me to speak today.
My name is Brian Gibbons, I'm the Chairman and Chief Executive Officer for Greenburg Gibbons.
Greenburg Gibbons is based in Owings Mills and is a regional mixed-use developer.
We have built our reputation on doing transformational projects in the communities in which we live.
I have 45 local employees that work for us in Owings Mills,
and we are very proud of what we've been able to accomplish in our communities.
Some of our projects included theapolis Town Center Parole, which was a dead ball that we turned into a 2.3 million
mixed use project that has components with retail, residential, office.
We also did Town Center at Laurel, which was a dead ball that we turned into a 400,000 square foot retail center
and a 400 unit apartment complex.
We did a village at Watt Chapel in Crofton,
Watt Chapel Town Center.
Those projects are combined 2.5 million square feet
of mixed use.
In Baltimore, we have five projects.
We have two, what I would consider
to be transformational projects.
The first one in Mr. Conscious District
is the Hunt Valley Town Center.
As everybody can remember, at one point,
that was called, it was on deadmalls.com and it was called Death Valley. We
invested, when we purchased that property we paid $26 million for the
property. The current assessment for that property is $192 million.
Our Foundry
Road project was a dead manufacturing plant and always mills. It was assessed
for $15 million when we bought it. When we're completed, the total assessment will be $188
million.
So the current taxes that we pay in Baltimore Cady are about $5 million across
the board for the properties that we have created and they were about $200,000 when
we bought these projects. We were able to do these tremendous redevelopments without
any type of county assistance. We know what we're doing. Hunt Valley Town Center is 1.2 million square
feet on a hundred acres. Foundry Row is about 500,000 square feet on 50 acres. We're talking about
a $1.2 million project on five, I'm sorry, a 1.2 million square foot project on five acres. There
There are extraordinary infrastructure costs associated with that, including structured
parking as well as all the other infrastructure that we're going to advance.
We afford to join Fenscher with California State Tissue Retirement System, who is our
partner at Hunt Valley, our partner at Watchable Town Center, our partner at St. Thomas
shopping center, our partner in Rice's Town Shopping Center, which we're getting ready
to redevelop. We already have a $300 million worth of investment in Baltimore County.
They
have approved the project with one condition is that we get this final, these development
agreements done with this county. There are moments in time when these projects can happen.
All the things have to come together. I worked on this for two years with a
prior development, undoing what was done and putting it all back together.
We're now at a point in time where we could make this happen.
I did want to point out in the process I've talked about in Baltimore County,
we had no government assistant whatsoever.
I think I said that already, but I'm going to repeat that.
None.
And I would be here today if I can make this happen without this.
I don't enjoy being here today to ask for this.
but I'm here because I think this is a transformational project that is going to change the landscape
of Towson that is going to give that part of Towson a heartbeat that doesn't exist today.
If you walk over there now, it's sad.
It really is.
A lot of the office buildings have emptied out and there's a reason for it.
When you create a amenity like this, you lift the entire, as I think Councilman
normal nose, a rising tide lifts all ships. This will create the rising tide for Towson
and will be the linchpin that kind of connects the university to Towson. So I'd love to
answer any questions that you have. I'm here because I'm very passionate about the community
in which we live, and you know that you're going to see me all the time.
I'm not some out-of-state developer. You're going to see me every day, so I've got to do this right,
because I'll hear about it if I don't do it right.
And in terms of, you know, Todd had created an invention in the bankruptcy.
We've been in business. Next year will be our 50th year in business.
CalSTRS is a $200 billion pension fund. We're not going into bankruptcy.
We have the economic power to do this, and this is really the moment in time to get it done.
Thank you. Thank you and I see several council members hands. Why don't we start with Councilman
Marks then Councilman Jones and Councilman Katch.
Thank you very much. Mr. Gibbons as
I've said numerous times you have an exceptional record and I think all of us on the council
respect the work you've done. I just have one question. What percentage of the overall
development team, does your firm represent?
We are the contract purchaser for Towson Row.
When we close in, the last condition for closing is this agreement, when we close into the project,
we will be with 95, the entity that will own it is GG Cal, which is my joint venture
or my development company with CalSTRS.
We will own 95% of the entire project with the exception of the office component.
So you will be the public face of this project. You will be the ones dealing with the community.
You'll be the ones dealing with the council.
That's correct.
Okay, thank you.
Councilman Jones.
How are you today, Mr. Gibbs?
Well, thank you, Mr. Jones.
Good, good, good.
I, just for everybody, because Mr. Gibbons' headquarters is in Owens Mills, I know him.
I know the work he's done at Foundry Row and being a fire chief in Anne Arundel County for
33 years, or 32 years, I lose track after you get over 30, I retire, but I know the
work that's been done at what used to be parole plaza, which is now, what is it called?
Anapolis Town Center.
Anapolis Town Center, and I know it's taking place over there on Route 3 in Whitechapel.
Whitechapel Town Center.
So, first of all, let me just say, in all my dealings with you, which has been
for quite some years. You've been nothing but an honest, decent person who's a straight shooter
who's never sugar-coated anything that's always told me like it was, and I have never known
you to say or add any nuances or anything that would somehow mislead me or anyone around
you. So I appreciate you and all that you do. And let me guess say, with my knowledge
of the developments in Anne Arundel County as well as what you have done at Foundry Row.
You have described these things as revitalizing those projects, but let me just say that
I know for a fact that these projects not only are you revitalizing the projects, but
you have revitalized the communities that surround those projects.
It adds a spark. It adds a sense of excitement that people that I talk to all the time are excited about.
They're excited about these projects. And that can only help increase the property values of every property around those projects.
I know what happened. Like I said, I've been there. I saw parole plaza. I saw what it was.
That's why it's hard for me to get away from the name of Napa's Townsend and now and I saw what happened on route 40
I mean a route 3 so and of course found a reroll so you know, I guess want to thank you so much for
taking a
Row into this project and coming on board because I think it it brings the type of excitement and the type of
for professionalism and expertise that this project needs,
and I'm, I guess, thankful.
So I notice not much of a question is more of a praise,
but I thank you very much.
How did you come to become so well at this stuff?
How do you, what make, there's a question for you.
Passion.
Passion, there you go, thank you.
Councilman Katch?
Yeah, thank you.
If I may, there was one thing I did want to point out
in the presentation that was made on the economic analysis, if that's okay.
When the tax credit analysis where we discounted that to the present value,
that it says that we'd be entitled to $35 million or we wouldn't have to pay $35 million in taxes over 15 years.
That was, that analysis was done assuming the assessment was two-thirds of our cost.
Okay, so if these properties get assessed at cost, instead of being $35 million in tax revenue, it would be $50 million in tax revenue.
We did that because Mr. Homan wanted to be extremely conservative.
And I want to be conservative, but I do want to point out that if these simply get...
I'm not talking about developer profit or anything like that if we could possibly make some.
I'm talking about out-of-pocket cost the difference in the available tax credits under the revitalization district and
green building initiatives
Would be 50 million dollars
under the current law
Councilman, thank you very much. Mr. Chairman. I'd asked a question before about
How much money the prior developer had
spent on this project and
whether the 350 million is all new money or does that include the purchase from the previous?
Obviously, I don't know what you did, but...
Yeah, we are buying a 95% interest in the...it's a complicated structure,
but we're buying...we'll be the 95% general partner of the project.
The previous developer had land acquisition costs, design costs, entitlement costs.
We are we are buying into it based on the cost less approximately
9.8 million dollars that we did not approve as cost wouldn't to buy into the project
Okay, so
the
350 million
Includes the
16 point whatever it is five from the county. Yes
because the way it works councilman is that we will put the money out and those
will be reimbursement so we will put out 350 million dollars including 50
million dollars of equity with the acquisition and the development of the
infrastructure as we prepare the site for vertical construction and I'm so
Kay's Valley is going to still have the office building they will have they
they will be the developer for the office building and then you will be 95% of the remainder of the
correct project and you will agree that hunt valley is nicer than foundry road
we can take that out the hallway you don't you don't you don't play favorites with your children
that's good okay councilwoman allman it was great mr. Gibbons thanks for being here today i know
it's not your favorite thing to do. I just wanted to say that this is not an
either or. This is not we're going to redevelop Towson Rowe in and not do
something else. Right now this is a public-private partnership. Our schools
are not that right now. Maybe they will be someday but they're not. Greenberg
givens is investing an incredible amount of money into Towson as they have in
other parts of the county. In Owings Mills and Rysers Town, their investment has
changed those communities, has moved them forward in a way that we never thought
it would, but it has moved them forward. It even brought Krispy Kreme back.
Yeah, that's part of that's that's part of the rising that's part of the rising time
I just want to say that
For me, you have always been your company has been incredible to deal with
You did everything I asked you to do when we were talking about foundry road, which was a lot
And I I want you to know that if anyone can do this
Thank you. Thank you, Councilman. Any other questions or comments for Mr. Gibbons? Councilman
Crandall? Sure. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. One comment, Mr. Gibbons, my office will be sending
you four different maps of the commercial revitalization districts in the Seventh District.
So the county
order had a question and if you're not prepared for the question or the administration
I can possibly see why, and just maybe we can look at this over the next week or so.
Have you looked at the PACE financing tool, which is where you would,
I'll just read it from the county auditor, it's a financing tool available to commercial developers
that allows the cost of energy-efficient improvements to be financed
via long-term loan surcharge on the real property tax bill.
And just recently the county made this program available for new construction,
whereas previously it was only offered to building improvements for existing structures.
So, you know, have you all looked at this as a potential mechanism?
And if so, would that perhaps offset the fiscal impact to the county on this deal?
And then of course, you know, how would it affect the assessed value of the property moving forward?
Well, part of what we're doing is we are going to be building this under green technology.
So we're already, you know, we'll have LEED certified buildings across the board.
So and if we don't do that, our tax credits get significantly reduced.
So that's a big part of this is that we're having to follow the green technology, which we intend to do.
I'm not particularly, I'm not in particular familiar with the PACE program that you're talking about, Councilman.
But it's certainly something that we would look into.
But I believe that's already part of the LEED certification or the green building initiatives that we're going to be following anyhow.
It's all about energy efficiency and so on.
Okay. Thank you.
Any other questions or comments from Mr. Gibbons?
Mr. Gibbons, I really appreciate you coming in and I look forward to grabbing coffee with you sometime
and talking about Whole Foods or Wegmans in Southwest Baltimore County so thank
you for coming in thank you council thank you all righty our next speaker is Mr.
Eric Walter can I guess add one thing why Mr. Walker make his way I would like to
see a day when perhaps I know some of the things that Mr. Gibbons has done in
Anne Arundel County I'd like to see a day when perhaps we can partner with
him to build a school because it is my understanding he's able to build schools a lot cheaper than
our current process.
Good point, Councilman.
Mr. Erick Walter, do you want to come up?
Number crunching questions?
All righty.
Mr. Walter waves his time, yields his time.
So our next speaker is Mrs. Dana Bergman.
Hi, everybody.
Thank you for this opportunity.
Hi Mr. Chairman and our council members.
So my name is Diana Bergman.
I am one of the lead advocates for laying us down.
We've been pushing for three years for a new school.
And this Towson Rowe project grabbed my attention.
I've worked with our councilman for our first district and we've had several discussions
regarding how we have to protect Baltimore County and their triple bond rating.
So I do understand that schools get funded very different from developer projects.
But I don't want to talk numbers. I want to talk some common sense.
We have developers that are talking about being competitive in Baltimore County.
And if they want to be competitive, then shouldn't they compete just like other surrounding counties
where they have impact developer feeds that help support the public services
that you're providing your community.
Baltimore County has the second largest aging infrastructure
in the state of Maryland.
We don't get extra money like Baltimore City does.
And yes, I'm very proud of Anahoma County
because they figured out a way just like Frederick County
to take care of their aging infrastructure
in a more affordable, feasible way.
So I do a lot more than just read the paper.
I'm actually an active duty military spouse.
I've traveled in different areas.
I've seen developers create and make communities have a new life.
Miami-Dade County took certain areas and turned them around with shopping centers
and business projects that are absolutely amazing.
But I live in Baltimore Highlands in the Lansdowne community.
And if my family comes to visit,
And we're very close to BWI. We're very close to that Cammin Yards baseball stadium for the Orioles fan.
And we chose to live in Baltimore County because it was close to the airport. It was close to the city.
But one family comes to visit. I don't have a hotel in my community.
There's one in Anarondo. There's one in Baltimore City.
But in our little pocket of Southwest, I don't have a project like this.
And yes, it could change and make a big difference like it did for Owens-Melt.
Now, I have my youngest that's a second grader.
I don't know exactly when this project will be completed, so when it could return back to the community.
But even if it's eight years from now, he'll be in 10th grade.
And if it's further along, like I was projected, he'll be a college student, and he didn't benefit a single time of our taxpayers' money to go back into our school and our education.
So thank you if you have any questions.
Thank you.
Thank you, Ms. Bergman.
Our next speaker is Russ Parobly.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Councilman, and Mr. Holman.
I think the long story, real short, what I've heard here today and what I've read in the newspaper.
This is, I have no problem with you giving tax credits, I have no problem giving permits.
The biggest thing when business people come in is can we get the proper permits,
which I think Mr. Holman has explained is not a problem.
I have a major problem with giving, somebody has $350 million of money to build these things
and they want $16 million from the taxpayers of Baltimore County.
As everybody said, you can be hearing schools, air conditionings, there's been a conflict
between the governor and the county executive, even Mr. Basu, who's a great speaker, I think
if he loses his job, he'll be an excellent car salesman.
I think though the red flag is what he said to me are no guarantees.
And I agree with him.
And it doesn't take a very smart business person to say that if Marriott Hotel has
90% capacity filled all the time and they're closing down you would not you
would be somewhat of an idiot to say let's get some money go and build another
hotel they don't they don't need our tax dollars gentlemen and ladies they
don't need it and that's me as a taxpayer sales that's me as a taxpayer
and I just don't think you should put anything in it now you're all going to
vote on a pig and a poke and I look at this way if you're going to vote on
this. I think you should use one of these because
I think this is what we're
going to be getting into. We're blindsiding in here. He needs 16 million
dollars of taxpayers. Where's the other 350 million dollars coming from? You
mean somebody else can't ante up? That's how I feel about it. I also want to
say with my one event left as I give credit and courage to the all the
council people who have asked some tough questions and I think as
councilman Crandell said I'm also like to know why it's not a risk where's the
risk problem and I think also we should not be given grants if you vote for this
it should be a loan like that we can if somebody does not pay up I think we're
able to take legal action towards it so have no problem there are tax grants
but once again the money issue is what I have as a taxpayer and also
represent the Rose Hill Community Association and I'm a Baltimore County
taxpayer. So thank you for your time and my other half minute will go to somebody
else. Thank you. Our next speaker Scott Pappas. Good to see you Russ. Our next
speaker Scott Pappas followed by Kathy Labuda.
Come on over here. Come on right
up here.
Good afternoon. Good afternoon. Dear Baltimore County Council my name is
Scott Pappas representing the leaders helping leaders 7th district
the Council of Baltimore County, a 501c3 nonprofit corporation, whose board of directors is comprised
of community leaders from the community organizations of Old Dundalk, New Dundalk,
Rosedale, Essex, Middlesex, Sparice Point, and Fort Howard to adjust three points.
First, please note that you're in receipt of a Baltimore County organization chart
delineating at the Baltimore County Council, the Baltimore County Executive, and the
Baltimore County apparatus is under and subordinate to the citizens of the
Baltimore County Council. Secondly, leaders helping leaders seven districts of a
council of Baltimore County categorically opposed as financing and the
associated risk to financing private business adventures with Baltimore
County taxpayer property tax sales tax fees or any other public debt in the
form of municipal bondage. Leaders helping leaders seven districts of a
Council Baltimore County believes that the taxpayers of Baltimore County must directly
benefit from their tax contributions addressing infrastructure, education, safety and other
traditional uses of Baltimore County taxpayer money.
And again, not as a scheme distributing the financial risk to the individual Baltimore
County taxpayers and their children for the special interest and profit of a billionaire
oligarchy.
Last, it would be reported, okay, the Baltimore County Council passed legislation earlier this
year protecting 30 trees in Towson which were destroyed and removed by the County, the Baltimore
County Administration.
What has or what will the Baltimore County Council do to investigate who are responsible
for this most egregious affront to the Baltimore County Council, the citizens of
Baltimore County and the very core of our democratic system?
How will these responsible compensate the citizens of Baltimore County for our loss from their actions?
And what legislation is the Baltimore County Council introducing to ensure such a breach of public trust?
Okay, it will not happen again.
I would like to additionally add, okay, that the studious and esteemed economist who testified today
made a rather conspicuous, okay, forgetfulness
in not including the trade point Atlantic,
the development in the Seventh District,
is also competing for jobs also, okay?
Again, like Mr. Rubinor Obli,
I believe is how he pronounces his name,
did bring up the fact that the one guarantee
that the economists did say, okay,
the one exceptional guarantee, okay,
he said, there's no guarantees.
Well, let me correct him and say that there is one
guarantee and that is the fact
that the Baltimore County taxpayers will be on the hook, okay, for any public financing
on this, and I concur, okay, with the esteem, okay, councilman, okay, Mr. Marks, and the
fact that we did have another document dumped here and that there is not enough time for
us to logically and if we want to say here thoroughly examine, okay, the prospects
within the weeks that, two weeks I think we're going to have, in light of the fact
that we just experienced one with the Resolution 109-17 where we asked everyone here to shelve
it for a month until the citizens of Baltimore County could look at it a little clearer and
see how it benefited the communities of the Seventh District.
Mr. Papas, could you conclude your remarks, please?
You know, I'm sorry, but this is another exhibition of how the developer had preferential
treatment to speak for three additional minutes and the people get no time at all.
Thank you very much.
Thank you.
Our next speaker is Kathy Labouda followed by Mark Lee and
good afternoon, Ms. Labouda.
Thank you very much for letting me speak. My name is Kathy Labouda. I'm the Secretary of
the Treasure of Fort Harrod Community Association. I'm here speaking for myself today. I disapprove
of this Towson Road project. I'm known for speaking my mind and you are all elected
to do the people's work and not the work of special interests, billionaires, developers,
and cartels. As a taxpayer I'm not willing to risk the financial future and stability of my county.
All the past ventures that you spoke of and existing ones that you have touted are so successful.
If they are then why are our schools falling apart? Why do we not have enough teachers?
Why is our education system in shambles and the infrastructure in our communities are falling
apart. Our community roads are impassable. We do not have enough police in our districts
and our parks are deteriorating. Where has the money gone from all of these successful
ventures that you spoke of?
Our existing communities, not these new communities, our
existing communities are an immediate attention of services and infrastructure. The financial
resources from any revenue source should be used to upgrade the services and
infrastructures in our existing communities and not given to billionaires
to enrich themselves. So for as for your performance and all of these has been
less than impressive when it comes to the return on investment to the
communities who pay the taxes and Mr. Pappas is correct the communities and
the taxpayer will be on the hook for this. In closing, please let me remind you that
2018 is an election year and elections have consequences. Thank you.
Thank you.
Our next speaker is Mark Lee, followed by Larry Foulson.
Good afternoon. My name is Mark Lee, and I have been a Baltimore County citizen for
over 50 years. I am from the Fifth District, but I speak for all of the county taxpayers
regarding this magic money this is our money the county is proposing to be used
for a private development project and it comes from all over the county paid for
by citizens who expect their taxes will provide basic services. Essentially Caves
Valley partners created this mess and now the development needs taxpayer money
is that right? You our county council members each have a fiduciary duty to
every citizen of this county to spend our tax money carefully and not put that
money at risk. You may not have seen the degree of it yet but there is an angry
force growing in every part of the county. Residents are fed up and
are sharing stories about bad experiences they've had. They look to
their next line of defense and hope their elected officials can set things
straight. When they have been told over and over and over and over that there is no money
for building a new fire station, solving a noise problem at a county dog pound, repairing
a school, providing clean water and school fountains, keeping a community center open,
paving streets in their neighborhoods, rebuilding aging infrastructure or renovating a senior
Center, they will pay attention when miraculously the county has $43 million to give to a team
of two successful developers for Towson Rowe.
It's a miracle.
That gets everyone's attention, not just in Towson, but in Dundalk, Lansdown, Delaney
Valley, Essex, Catonsville, Pikesville, and every other part of the county.
The council needs to vote against this proposal.
If this for-profit project is too risky for the developers to invest more money into or to attract additional investment, then it is too risky for the county.
The developers are asking the county to take on all those risks to be a lender without collateral, interest payments, or guarantees.
No lender would do this.
Why is the county executive asking the county council to do this for private developers?
If you cannot vote against this, just realize that the anger boiling up in national politics will spill over here.
Correction, it has spilled over here.
Have you ever seen such a continual show of force in your political careers?
If you cannot vote against this, we will be using social and traditional media to make
sure these outrages are dispersed far and wide.
And the more people are upset, the more this will affect political futures.
To the audience, I say this to you, this is your money.
Do not allow the county, Kevin Kamenetz, and the developers to get away with it.
We are not going away.
Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Lee.
Our next speaker is Larry Fogelsen, followed by Scott Hall.
Good morning, Scott.
Good afternoon.
My name is Larry Fogelsen.
I'm associated with the Green-Tousen Alliance
and have been focusing with others
on issues related to the adequacy of the sewer system
that serves Towson.
Towson Row will be served by the Towson Run Interceptor,
which along with sewer lines from Rowland Run
and a portion of the Lower Jones Falls
flows into a single 42-inch 62-year-old sewer interceptor line under Lake Rowland.
Our analysis based on
The county data shows that this Lake Roland interceptor is already over capacity and wet weather likely due to the inflow and infiltration that plagues old sewer lines.
We believe the surcharging may be the source of bacterial contamination in Lake Roland.
There are no plans that we are aware of to remediate this problem. In fact, the county maintains there is no problem.
However, the county is planning to build a parallel Towson Run sewer to accommodate increased
flows from Towson Row and growth at Towson University.
Increased sewage can only add to any problems in Lake Rowland and increase the raw sewage
discharges downstream in Baltimore City.
The county has not been willing to provide us with the physical cost or needs details
related to the new Towson Run sewer.
The question for the purposes of today's subject is that, if a new sewer line is indeed required
to serve Towson Rowe, will Towson Rowe pay a fair share of the capital costs for its construction
or will it be an additional cost of the development that will be shifted to county residents
and businesses?
In addition to the subsidy proposal before you, is this another unaccounted for subsidy
for Towson Rowe?
More broadly, Baltimore County does not have meaningful impact fees.
Others have mentioned this, such as those in many other local jurisdictions, to pay for
the additional services imposed by this new development in the Towson area in particular.
The proposed house and row subsidies actually turns the concept of impact fees upside
down and inside out.
Residents will not only pay for the proposed subsidies, but will bear the burden of the
costs of many additional public service needs generated
by this development.
Everyone likes to tap the alleged benefits.
No one likes to calculate and show the true costs
to our already overburdened county services, sewer, water,
transportation, public safety, open space,
and the list goes on.
Accounting 101 teaches that a ledger has two sides.
We urge you to measure and consider both sides
before you take hasty action that
It may not be in the best interests of all county businesses and residents.
Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Ferguson.
Next speaker, Scott Hall, followed by Heather Patty.
Thank you for the opportunity to speak.
Within the world of spies, the word nugget is the British term for the bait offered to a potential defector.
That bait or nugget could be money, political asylum, sex, or a job.
The shiny surface of that nugget misdirects the attention of the potential defector.
That shiny surface hides the uncontrolled predicament the potential defector will eventually find himself in.
Once the defector commits and provides the information he becomes a pawn of his handler,
he becomes a hostage of his handler because the defector made the wrong choice.
Because a long prison term, sentence, is only one phone call away.
What does this have to do with giving $43 million of taxpayers' hard-earned money to land developers of 1,000 row?
Everything. Once you commit, once you have given any money to the land developers for this project, you have committed.
it. You become the pawn. You become the hostage. You become the giver of last resort. You become
the deep pockets. You place yourselves in the unendurable position of keeping this project
afloat if it becomes the Titanic. Do you really want to place yourselves in that position?
If the land developers had to travel all the way to California to find either a linchpin
lender or a linchpin investor? Doesn't that tell you something? Doesn't that tell you a
lot? If you collectively believe giving money is the rational course to take, what portion
of ownership or equity does the county receive? What are our projected profits?
Not projected
tax benefits from this project is not a return on investment. That is called a
legal obligation of the owners. What money did all of us in this room, what
money did you give to all of us in this room before we paid our taxes?
As someone
who has had more than four decades of financial experience, I believe in no
harder money for this project, defies every semblance of common sense.
It makes about as much sense as investing in a factory that will make only two products,
screen doors for submarines, and Venetian blinds for nudist colonists.
I prefer to believe that each one of you is capable of making decisions more rational
than that.
Those are my prepared marks.
I just want to add one quick comment regarding Mr. Crandall's question about risk assessment.
You know, all of us are guilty of not stating the things that are most obvious in front of us.
And there are three things that are very obvious here.
First off, there's an accelerated schedule for approval that Mr. Mark referred to earlier.
Secondly, there's an accelerated schedule for payment.
Larger payments are coming up front.
Now they made that perfectly clear, where it should meet just the all the way around.
The largest payment should be at the end.
And most importantly, they didn't provide the risk assessment because they don't want you to see it.
Thank you, Mr. Hall.
Our next speaker is Heather Paddy, followed by Mark Baskerville.
Well, that paying the salary had to say, so I'm just going to pretend he's there.
Hi. My name is Heather Patty. I'm a resident and homeowner of Baltimore County in Whitemarsh.
My initial thoughts when I heard that our county executive wants to give Greenberg and
Gibbons Caves Valley Partners $43 million. I was speechless. Luckily for you today,
I have been able to put my expressions into words. I'm also very passionate about my
beliefs as many of you who know me will attest. So while the pros have been touted
boosting the local economy and removing an eyesore vacant lot, I find these
pros to be weakened without significant benefit. Yes, and no disrespect, the
Towson Chamber of Commerce has given this proposal its blessing, but what if
they're wrong? Both the Chesapeake Gateway Chamber of Commerce and the
Baltimore County Chamber of Commerce were wrong with Paragon. You remember
Paragon? The outlet mall developer, they dumped big money into many campaign
paying accounts. They left with their tails between their legs after the Council did
everything they could to appease them just months before the construction was to begin
on the big outlet mall. Both of their endorsements for those chambers of commerce were woefully
inadequate. Why should I as a taxpayer have faith that the Towson Chamber of Commerce
endorsement will be any different? As with Paragon, Baltimore County government
is once again giving preferential treatment to one developer over other developers who could
possibly take over and complete the project without handouts. No disrespect intended.
There's other developers that could bail out Caves Valley. Why is it always the same
pool that we're dealing with? Unanswered questions to me include why does the developer
need $43 million to finalize their financing through a California-based pension fund?
Why are there no local, as it was already said?
This is a bad risk. It's a bad risk loan.
Why are we funding this? Does that represent
fiduciary responsibility or favoritism, or both?
How can you assure the citizens of Baltimore County
that a hotel in the heart of Towson
with no underground parking garage
and no conference room availability
is even going to be successful for 12 to 20 years?
How can Baltimore County Council make such an important
an expensive decision without this information readily available, as David Mark said.
I don't believe the means justify the end in this hurried decision.
I find this proposal to be an extreme misuse of county funds, especially as there are
so many outstanding countywide infrastructure needs.
I have a very big problem with the county executive who wishes to use the general
fund for payment to developers who provide direct financial support to his political
endeavors. And so should you. How can I be assured that none of these county funds are
going to end up in Chem and its gubernatorial campaign?
Mama's finished. This proposal poses a definite conflict of interest and I have serious concerns
about the ethics of any council person who votes in favor of this proposal. Your job
is to represent us, not pacify the county executives every wish. I encourage every
member of the council to vote no to this outlandish proposal.
Do the right thing.
Thank you, Ms. Patti.
Our next speaker is Mark Baskerville,
followed by Ms. Evans Letocha.
Letocha, I believe that is.
Thank you.
Good afternoon.
Hi.
I'm Mark Baskerville with Maryland Campaign for Liberty.
We are against this and any handouts of public funds
to a private interest or developer and we'll be reporting any votes in favor of such publicly.
So there's been a lot of assumptions about this project, things that can't be proven
about the future. One of the biggest assumptions used to justify this project that has been
overlooked is the assumption that it can't happen without a taxpayer-funded bailout.
That's the whole basis of what's being used to try to sell this.
There's already supposedly, according to the Chamber of Commerce and others,
plenty of private demand for hotel space and so forth.
And, you know, if the demand is there, there's already a profit motive
for developers and investors to make the project happen
and increase the tax base if that's what your incentive is.
It's not really my incentive.
I would like to decrease the tax base and return that back to the individual citizens more.
But so that's one big assumption.
Another fundamental problem with this is I'm pretty sure, correct me if I'm wrong, not
a single council member here has a professional background in real estate finance.
And if they do, I mean, let me know, but I don't know that there's any successful
a successful track record there.
So it seems like the council is not qualified
to make an investment decision,
so-called investment decision here,
with taxpayers' dollars,
especially considering, as Councilman Marks pointed out,
the extremely short time frame
in which you've been familiar with this issue.
So don't make the decision to fund this
without expertise and without enough time
even look at it you know and thoroughly and also I also want to point out that
there are costs here to jobs it's this is sold as this is all big jobs program
it helps build jobs but where is this money coming from it's coming from
small businesses it's coming from personal property taxes it's coming from
income taxes it's coming from costs that citizens are paying and
businesses are paying. So it's just in order to create these funds for handouts, you're
having to nickel and dime the population. You're having to nickel and dime small businesses
who may not be able to hire that next employee now because of the tax burden. You're nickel
and diming regular citizens and consumers who can't go buy stuff from local businesses
anymore or any business. So in that sense, you're reducing jobs there and help preventing
other businesses from expanding.
That's an assumption that was not included in these economic models.
Definitely needs to be accounted for.
So, thanks.
Thank you, Mr. Baskerville.
And if I could ask you if you do send out some of your group emails, which we all are
familiar with, if you could kindly ask the people to also send us their emails
so we can respond to them.
For some reason, we're unable to respond to them, and I would love to respond to
some of the people to make sure they're presented both sides.
Maybe you don't want them to know the facts, but thank you for coming.
Our next speaker is Ms. Evans Latocha, followed by Senator Brochan.
Good afternoon.
Thank you.
So I'm a resident of Towson in the Fifth District.
Previous speakers mentioned the quality of life game and the importance of this development to attracting people to Towson.
I wanted to point out that one of the other parts of the quality of life that attract
people to Towson are our schools, our roads, our infrastructure.
So if Baltimore County gives away the 43 million, 16 million which we're never getting
back or 18 million that's costing the county in the first year, when we as citizens
for improved schools, 120 million for Lansdowne High School,
for Delaney High School, Towson High School.
When we ask for our roads to be paved, we always hear,
sorry, there's no money in the county.
Any budget for these things? Why is there suddenly money for the developers, but there's no money
for county services to our taxpayers? So when I'm on my roads in Stonely Neighborhood,
haven't been repaved for the entire time that I've lived there. There are potholes, there
are bumps on Stevenson Road, on Bosley. Why does it take that long to get those roads
when, you know, when are we going to get that money back?
Am I going to have to wait the 12 to 14 years for the money to come back from this development
to get my schools and roads improved?
Think about that when you're considering where this proposal to give away money to developers
when you're not providing the services to county taxpayers that we're paying for.
Thank you.
Thank you. Our next speaker is Senator Jim Broch and followed by C.R. Hogan-Dorp.
Good afternoon. Thank you for your patience.
Good afternoon, and thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the council.
A lot's been said today. I just want to make two points that I don't think have been said.
This isn't just a $46.9 million bailout.
There's also an undisclosed amount, which we think is somewhere between $20 and $30 million worth of infrastructure
It's been done at York and Towson Town Boulevard that the Cabinet's administration has put in.
So the total cost in taxpayer-funded dollars is closer to 80 to 90 million rather than 46.9 million.
The second piece is this.
I had the opportunity last week to go to get a tour of Trade Point in Atlantic.
And what they're doing there is fascinating.
And at the end of my tour, they showed me a map.
And on the map, they showed a barren top third of the map and I said how come there's no development going on here?
Because you know in the other two thirds we have Amazon and FedEx and all these other things.
And they looked at me and they said well senator they said there's no public sewer and there's no public water here.
And I said why not? And they said this administration hasn't given it to us yet.
And I said, what did they say?
And they said to us, wait your turn.
So, in deference to the councilwoman over here, it is an either or an or.
Okay, and the merits of a district on the east side of Baltimore County,
where the unemployment rate is probably 10 times what it is in my district in Taliesin and Timonium,
I would counter and tell you that there is an either or,
and I would rather have this money and these funds go to the east side
in Tray Point Atlantic than in my district.
So thank you.
Thank you, Senator.
Councilor Jones.
Mr. Brochin, I'm Senator Brochin, I do apologize.
I was just curious, I heard what you said
about Tray Point Atlantic.
And I was just curious, so how do you reconcile,
I'm trying to figure out if you are,
I'm assuming that you are against this investment.
So I would be fine if it was a loan
and the people in my district would be fine with this, if it's alone, I know that the
new developer that's coming in, and like you, I have a lot of confidence in the work that
Mr. Gibbons can do, so I'm not against the project. I think the project is going to come
out much, much better than the previous developer, but I don't think we should, but it's
the $46.9 million. I think it's better spent elsewhere in the county where the
need is greater, because it is an either or an or. Councilman, we don't have
an unlimited amount of money we just can't keep throwing tax incentives all
over the county we have to make decisions you have to make them I have to
make them on the state level and we have to prioritize and I think in this case
between the east side of the county and between here that if we prioritize I
don't think there's any there's any doubt of where the where the first 46
million dollars should go okay so let I guess my question was how do you
If this is a good project, the project on the east side, the old Sparrows Point project,
that's private investment.
Correct.
So the infrastructure that you're talking, as I understand it, that'll be made on private property.
Correct.
So it's okay to give them the money, but it's not okay to give the money here.
Okay, so I think you just asked a great question.
I'm going to give you the answer.
And the answer is a question, and the question is, how did we get here in the first place?
And we got here in the first place because as the new developers have to have said...
It's like they call that water under the bridge.
Have said, the project that came forward under Cays Valley was not economically viable.
It wasn't economically viable from the first day it was instituted.
And then, despite, even though it wasn't economically viable, when it came time to do what they were supposed to break ground,
they found that in fact there was too much rock in the ground. So they couldn't even drill down.
So now they put us in a position because the administration had decided, well, you know, we'll just demolish the block.
We won't wait to see if it's economically viable. We'll just demolish it.
So I feel like my constituents are kind of being extorted and the extortion is to take your pick
Okay, have this hole in the ground for the last two and a half years
for you know for the last two and a half years and and however long in the future or
Say yes to a 46.9 million dollar ballot
So the answer is that there's a huge difference and the difference is that the previous developer put us in this situation
In a plan that wasn't economically
viable, and they made a big mistake, which is why they ended up selling up to 95% of the
share.
They didn't do their due diligence, and there was rock in the ground, and the big question
to all seven of you is why should we have to pay for it?
Well,
I appreciate your statement.
However, it runs contrary to everything that was said earlier today.
We heard from Anima Bonsoon from Sage Policy.
We heard from the administration.
We heard that this is not a gift.
This is monies that they would be do anyway.
And to characterize it as a $40 million giveaway is just inaccurate.
So, I mean, I don't know what...
Okay, $16 billion, $23 billion, $24 billion, $24 million.
The fact of the matter is it's just not true.
can we have order yeah the fact of the matter is I guess it's just not true so
I mean I appreciate your comments but I think you know you're comparing apples
and oranges when you start talking about what's happening at when the east side
versus what's happening here because we have to do everything we can the fact of
the matter is out income to fund schools come from property taxes and
income taxes. That is some of the large portions of our income. So unless we come up with other
sources of income, like these taxes from the hotel tax and things of that nature, the burden
falls disproportionately on the citizens.
So I would counter and say two things. First of all, I think our responsibility for all
of the elected officials, not just the council, is to start off with the parts
of the county that are not as economically advantaged as the TAL scenario.
I think that's our first responsibility.
And secondly, I have tremendous respect for Mr. Basu.
I would love it if he were still here and would come up and sit next to me and we could
talk about Trade Point Atlantic and giving water and sewer to that last third so they
can do the wonderful things they've done in the bottom two thirds versus this project
right here.
I would love it if he would sit here and give us and do an analysis of those
to because clearly I see and I think I think most people see that our priority
should be in something that's going to get the people back on the east side back
to work you know I have to tell you something the unemployment rate in my
district in the 42nd is probably below 3% in other in other parts of the
county it's a heck of a lot higher. Senator with due respect you just said
that you have a tremendous amount of respect for Mr. Basu and I'm not
not sure if you had a chance to read his economic analysis on how this project would create 2,000
permanent jobs in Baltimore County, where the 220 million in annual business activity,
where the 92 million in employee compensation.
So the next county executive is going to be really facing a tough dilemma.
Next county executive is going to walk in a situation where, yeah, we need more schools.
We definitely need roads.
We definitely need improvement in infrastructure.
So as you know, and as everybody in this room knows, there's only a few ways to do that.
We can raise income taxes.
We can raise property taxes.
We can raise both.
Or we can also do smart development because development actually helps bring jobs.
And jobs build a tax base.
And a tax base helps build schools.
A tax base helps pay for our police.
A tax base helps pay for government services.
So, for example, are you prepared to say that you would rather raise property and income taxes
to make sure we have the schools and the roads that we need?
That's a funny question, Mr. Chairman.
But I have to – if we can get serious for a second.
I'm very serious.
So you just said that you support Mr. Abasio.
Tell me what you disagree with in this study.
Is it the 2,000 jobs?
Do you think it won't create jobs?
Do you think jobs do not provide a tax base?
Tell me what you disagree with if you support Mr. Abasio.
So, if you'll let me speak, here's the answer to the question.
The answer is simple.
First of all, I agree with his analysis.
I think he's a smart and talented guy.
But maybe the part that you and I disagree on, Mr. Chairman, is I don't think there's
unlimited, an unlimited pot of money in government, okay?
There's only a certain amount.
So if you agree with that, the question is where should it go?
Should it go in the 42nd District in an area where the previous developer made
a colossal mistake and is asking all of you to bail it out, or should it go on the east
side where the unemployment rate is probably 10 times what it is in my district and an
area that's had tremendous success and needs to grow so they can work on that tax base
so they can work on schools and roads and things like that.
It's a question of priorities, Mr. Chairman, and the question is what's a bigger priority?
And for my district, and I'm speaking on behalf of the 42nd district, we think
the money is better well spent in another part of Baltimore County that needs the economic
help and not to bail out the previous developer who didn't get it right.
Mr. Chairman.
One second.
Where we respectfully disagree, Senator, is you're saying, and we agree, there's not
an unlimited pot of money.
And so to increase that pot of money means increasing property taxes, increasing income
taxes, or doing smart development that actually helps to create jobs.
and that's how you grow the revenue base.
Councilwoman Oman?
Senator, what makes you think we are not doing anything
at Trade Point Atlantic?
That's what they told me.
All right.
And let me clarify that for a second.
In the two thirds that has water and sewer,
they're doing a lot.
In the one third that isn't,
they said that the cabinet's administration told them to
quote, wait your turn.
Okay.
Please. I
think there's a great way to put $43 million into that water and sewer right now. I really do. Are there any questions or comments for Senator Burtian?
Not for Senator Burtian, Mr. Chair, but since Will Anderson is still here, I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around the numbers that Mr. Burtian is throwing out.
Is my unemployment rate ten times higher than his district?
I didn't think so.
Thank you.
Yeah.
We do not have 30% unemployment.
Could you please put clarity on that, since this is televised?
Same on the west side.
I would assume.
Thank you for that clarification from Mr. Broschian.
All righty.
Our next speaker is not here.
C.R. Hogan-Dorff.
So we will.
Okay.
This is coming to support it.
Thank you.
Our next speaker is Rick Bielski followed by Nancy Hafford.
And good afternoon, almost evening, Mr. Bielski.
Hi, my name is Richard Bielski. I'm a lifelong Baltimore County resident.
I'm also a business owner and property owner in Towson.
I own Charles Village Pub and Patio in Towson.
And I've been there for 28 years and you've seen a lot of lean times in Towson.
I was in there in the early 90s when it was kind of dead down and around in Towson.
I support this project here.
I believe that Towson needs, I think this is going to be a home run for Towson.
I think the testimony and the things that I've heard today is definitely moving in
the direction to keep up with everybody else that's going on.
I hear all about everybody going downtown and everybody going to, you know, White Marsh.
And everybody going to these other places that have done projects like this, and I think
that we should just be a part of it as well. Towson is a great community. I also live in
the Hunt Valley area. I've seen the project that Mr. Devons has done there up in the Hunt
Valley Mall. I was there. I lived there the Death Valley Mall days. And see what that's
done for that community and what's going on up there now. But thank you. That's
all I have to say.
Thank you. Our next speaker is Nancy Halford, followed by Robbie Leonard.
Good afternoon.
Good afternoon, and thank you for giving me the time to come here and talk today.
I'm thankful for the information that Will Anderson and Mr. Basu gave.
And right now I'd like to address Vicki.
I was around when Foundry Row was starting in your area
and all the backlash you got from the community.
and I watch you take such a hit and you stood and you fought for it and now that
area is thriving and all the people that complained are shopping in those shops
right now so I thank you for what you did because the Towson Chamber doesn't
just represent the Towson Chamber we have a group that meets with all the
chambers from Baltimore County because we want what's best for all of
Baltimore County and smart growth is important. Our president is here today and he's going
to speak on behalf of the chamber, but I want to speak as a resident and somebody that lives
in Towson. I lived on the outskirts of Towson and I lived there for 30 years and I sold
my house and I moved right into the heart of this community because I believe in it
and I believe in where it's going.
I saw where it was 10 years ago, 12 years ago,
when businesses were flocking out of here.
I've watched you people and the predecessors before you
stand up for projects that the community did not want
and I see them in there today.
I know people that are in the room here
that did not want the movie theater coming to say
how bad it would be for our community.
And now, I walk the streets of Towson.
I shouldn't say, I walk the streets because I live here
and I work here, but I see it at night
and in the morning and on the weekend
and I am so proud to see families and grandparents
filling the restaurants, the movie theaters
that you guys got backlash on
that you supported thank God you supported it those movie theaters are
crowded they're bringing people from all over the county and for the first time
ever restaurants from the city are leaving the city to come to Towson
they would never ever have done that before but they believe in where we're
going they believe in the University being here all these jobs that are
coming and about the hotel. I want to make sure I'm clear on that. We understand
Towson University needs more student housing and they have to convert to
that. We understand but I know we need and we have to have another hotel.
Stanley Black and Decker is one of the largest employers in the area and
they're right in the heart of Towson behind the Golden Gates. I didn't like
to ask for a second because some of our people have left.
They have 20% of the rooms booked at the Marriott and Towson.
This Sheraton can't take them.
Mr. Gibbons, the only thing that I ask you
is get that hotel going.
We need this project.
Councilmen, councilwomen, I'm begging you please.
Because I am sorry about what happened in Dundalk,
but I'll tell you something.
I guarantee you will make things work here in Towson.
Thank you.
Thank you, Nancy.
Nancy, you know, Councilman Mark said something to say.
I did want to also reiterate what Mr. Gibbons said,
and I think I heard him correctly,
is he took over properties where there was $200,000 in taxes
being paid on the properties he's taken over.
And now I think those same properties,
he's paying over $5 million.
Is that right, Mr. Gibbons?
So if you want new schools, and you want roads, and you want infrastructure, think about that.
Two hundred thousand in property taxes, now five million. That's not bad.
Councilman Marks? Councilman Marks?
I just want to thank the Chamber for the leadership it showed.
If you come in here any night, it is amazing the difference between now and 2010.
In 2010, where the genos was, we had a derelict genos at York and Washington,
and that's now the flats at 703.
It's over 70% occupied.
We had an abandoned Burger King where the movie theater is.
Towson Commons was emptying out.
The movie theater was closing.
All around Towson we have incredible signs of life
and you've been a big part of that, so thank you.
All righty.
Mr. Chairman, can I just make one comment?
I just wanted to say that the money here
that we are using for this project
can't go anywhere else because it's a tax credit.
It's simple.
Our next speaker is Robbie Leonard, followed by Tim Bujanowski.
Thank you.
Councilman Naumann.
Good.
Almost evening, Mr. Leonard.
Good evening, Mr. Chairman and the Council.
Thank you very much for your time.
First off, I am a Senate candidate for District 42, which includes Downtown Towson.
I'm pro redevelopment.
I grew up in this district when I was a kid going to the movies at Towson
Commons, eating at mommy, Lardos, shopping at boarders. I want to see Towson
return to vibrance. It's important, we've heard other people talk about it,
Anibon, Basu, others, that families like my young family like we'll hear from
Tim Bojanowski next, you know we're raising our kids in this district. We
chose between Howard County, Montgomery County, folks are moving to Northern
Virginia for jobs and opportunities. So I'd like people to choose here. Now this
project and other Towson Development projects have created some controversy.
It's raised a lot of questions about campaign finance contributions and how
those contributions may benefit certain donors. It's triggered a lot of media
attention from some of the folks covering today's hearing. I've seen a
lot of social media commentary and this has been a very popular subject as I
go door-to-door talking to voters in District 42. Now the developers found out
that there were some unintended consequences when they started this
contract but I think that we can find a benefit that wasn't here maybe a year or
two ago or five years ago. I think that's time for us to talk about campaign
finance reform. I think that this could be the benefit that comes out of the
situation. Look at Montgomery County and Howard County. They're moving towards
public financing for their council members and county executive. We don't
have that here. It's not a partisan issue. Governor Larry Hogan took campaign
financing, public financing, the first gubernatorial candidate elected using
public financing and we see a Democratic candidate announcing that he'll be
taking public financing as well. This is something that we can do to restore
public trust in our institutions where people believe in transparency. I saw a
sign for transparency in the back of the room. My councilman Wade Catch
announced his re-election campaign yesterday and the email blast talked
about restoring transparency in our government. That's what public campaign
financing will do. So I think that if we are like Howard County, put it up to
the voters. Let's put it on the ballot, let the voters decide if the
voters have the appetite for fair, public finance elections.
So we know where the money's coming from.
And I thank you for your time.
Our next speaker is Tim Bojanowski,
followed by Brenda Bodine.
And good afternoon, almost evening, Tim.
Good evening, Mr. Quirk.
Thank you for having me.
I'm the president of the 1,000 Chamber of Commerce.
And in this role, I've had the privilege
of speaking with hundreds upon hundreds of both residents
and businesses in the Towson community many of them share the sentiment with me that it's slightly embarrassing to think that we would be rejecting what is the biggest investment of public and private dollars into downtown Towson at a time where our neighbors in Baltimore City struggle with such dire times of the lack there of investment and the impact that's had both in our systems in our programs in the city.
Towson has what's probably the greatest opportunity in generations to serve as an
engine for all of Baltimore County and that's because there's an explosion of
population that's going to occur as my peers and other millennials look to leave
downtown Baltimore City as they realize around them that the
infrastructure will not support the young families that they're growing and
for years what people have done is they look to the surrounding school
system they've looked at Baltimore County Public Schools and seen what a
power that it can be in forms of transforming the children that are there.
If we're looking to continue to make these investments, as Mr. Quirk you've said a couple
of different times, we have to reconcile that we're going to need to do one of two
things.
Either raise taxes or cut resources.
The third option being things like what Mr. Gibbons has proposed and making incredible
investments into our community that will economically provide opportunities for us
for decades to come.
That being said, I think that it truly is Towson's time.
I think that also we are still in an uphill battle the difference in downtown Towson between vibrant and vacant is often
Only a couple hundred yards the Towson Chamber does an incredible amount of work with an incredible set of volunteers
But a very limited budget a budget that oftentimes is probably less than many employees in Baltimore County
And in order to actually cultivate this growth what we're going to need is businesses
And this project is to bring businesses and to bring activity that we so desperately need
Baltimore County will benefit across the board from this, not just Towson.
Just like the redevelopment of the Inner Harbor did for Baltimore City,
it takes strong private and public partnership to make these things work,
and I commend you for thinking ahead, because if we had done that decades ago with other programs
that were designed to build things for generations to come, we wouldn't be looking
at some of these tough fiscal decisions as it pertains to roads, as it pertains to schools,
and to other dynamics. So I hope that you would consider
the mindset of the business community as we continue to look for support and
bringing additional resources into what we truly believe can be the engine for
all of our county in Towson that will spill out in the surrounding
neighborhoods and help to grow additional towns. Thank you Mr. Chairman. Thank you
Councilman. Quick question. Does the Chamber support a transportation
system in Towson to connect Towson University, the Towson Row and Towson
town mall and our mission as the Towson chamber is very simple. We support anything that contributes
to the vitality of businesses in Towson and I believe that there's tremendous need for
supporting our transportation infrastructure in Baltimore County and anything that we
can do to lend our support to how that would help to improve the business climate in
Towson. I believe that our board would be unanimously in approval of how critical would
Would a transportation system for Towson be to this project or mall, et cetera?
I do believe that the placemaking strategies that have been discussed, both from the side
that has been Towson University's focus and certainly the tremendous work of Will Anderson
and Baltimore County Economic Development, has suggested that we are going to need
additional stepping stones.
And I believe that a lot of people share the vision that I have and that many other
people in Towson have said is that Washington Avenue can serve as a main street for
Towson is starting to recruit what would be some of the interests that would lend
lend support to bringing in additional dynamics for how we would think about
parking how we would think about public transit but realistically in order to do
that we need to make sure that there is a central place that can look to change
what has become outdated systems we've had tremendous growth in downtown
Towson but as you walk into the buildings of downtown Towson many of
them have been survived but what is the blessing and the curse of the
of our local legal community and our local government.
Oftentimes these businesses are mostly recession proof.
There are not a lot of companies like mine in downtown Towson.
As a staff of 15, we are probably the largest digital company in downtown Towson.
You have companies in Hunt Valley that are 60 to 100 people.
You have people downtown that are 150 people large.
There is an appetite for these types of businesses in Towson,
but it's too expensive.
So programs like this and the project that is Towson Row
can lend support to then providing those monitored spaces
that will help to recruit the people that they can continue to fill out those businesses
and to fill out those buildings, but will take that catalyst.
Towson Row has been this catalyst without even going up.
Towson Commons, you speak to the owners there, they looked at the opportunity that was Towson Row
to be close to it, which has helped to create that retail.
All the beds that continue to go up in these new developments,
they're looking at Towson Row and they continue development that has been Towson,
but we need the businesses to fill those beds.
We need the businesses to then shop in those restaurants,
And Towson road will be one of the biggest catalysts for that by every definition of what we've provided in terms of reports and
Councilman marks. I know you wanted to say something. Yeah, I had to answer a councilman catch this point
Governor Hogan provided planning money for a Towson circulator
We put together a committee and the Chamber was an active part of that. We thank you for supporting that
And I did want to note for the record in addition to chamber
I know that the greater Towson committee also circulated a letter in support of this project as well
Okay, okay. Thank you Nancy
Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate you coming out. Thank you. All right. Our next speaker is Brenda Baudin followed by Dave Batten
and Miss Baudin, I think you signed up for both fiscal matter one and two, so if you want to...
I can address both.
Okay. Thank you.
I'm Brenda Baudin and I see me before here. I've been in commercial real estate for 32 years in this market
And I think that the biggest challenge that has been created here is the lack of transparency,
the lack of time being allotted to the council to actually review the facts,
to take time to do their own assessment of the risks,
and to have time to learn from the process that's been going on apparently for months
without your participation.
It's really pretty shocking and without participation from other people in the community. That I think
is the basic problem. It's a credibility problem and I think just as Chairman Quirk asked one
of the speakers to provide information about what was going on in a group that is concerned
about this, we are concerned that something's been going on for quite a long time and
negotiated a very long time without input from the council and the council having independent
opinions and the chance and the time to do that, which I think is critical.
There are, I can see that there's some clear possibilities for a way forward and the most
clear one, which a lot of people have mentioned, is to do it, this is a loan with collateral
with guarantees. There's nothing like that in here. 16 million from the hotel is a very low risk.
If the hotel is a very low risk, then there should be other financing, private financing,
at least for that component, etc., etc. Take the time to look at this.
I do want to say that there are a lot of holes in the lease for the garage.
There's no provision for making sure that there's a certain amount of spaces for the public
to park there, the developer, and it may be an accident that was written that way, but
it's written so that there are a lot of holes and a lot of things that would become very
problematic in the community around that garage, and I'd be glad to point them out
to you at a later date when I have more time than three minutes.
So I'd just like to say that we really have to think about this being we the people,
And we the people ask you as our council members to be good stewards of all of our money.
Make sure that there aren't other ways to finance this.
Take the time, look at the low risk options first.
Don't push the administration.
We the people elected you to represent us.
We the people want you to take the time.
There should not be rush.
This should not be shoved down your throats or you shouldn't have to do that.
We elected you to provide independent checks and balances.
That's what these three parts of government are all about.
We're just not seeing that.
We're seeing overload of one branch of government not letting you do your job.
And we elected you and we want you to do a better job and more thorough job and
look at other options instead of putting at risk the money that the taxpayers are very
concerned about. We're not against the project, we're against the means of funding it. That's
all.
Thank you. Our next speaker is Dave Batten followed by Mary Ellen Pease. Is Dave there? Dave
Batten? All right, I don't see Dave. Our next speaker is Mary Ellen Pease followed
by Henry Abrams.
Good evening and thank you for your patience.
Thank you. My name is Mary Olimpiz and I live in Towson.
My sentiments are very similar to
Ms. Bowden's who were well articulated. But this all goes to trust. The $43 million under
discussion here today is our taxpayer money. It doesn't belong to the developers who
who have made six-figure contributions to Kevin Kamenitz, et cetera.
The $42 million discussed here belongs to the citizens of Baltimore County.
I have no idea whether this $43 million developer subsidy makes any sense because the Kamenitz
administration is once again rushing this through to avoid giving us the facts that
we need.
So our response is simple.
The harder they push, the harder the cabinet's administration hides the truth,
the more dogged we will be in pursuit of the truth.
This administration wants us to trust them on this $43 million giveaway.
But one cannot escape the irony.
How can we trust the same people who secretly maneuvered to illegally destroy 30 protected trees
and bulldozed buildings at the Towson Gateway site at the other end of Towson.
The same administration who attempted to justify this secret maneuver of clearing the trees,
claiming it was desperate, desperate to get the 8 million dollars from the sale for much
needed county services.
Well, there is a little irony here.
How can we trust that the administration who misappropriated $120,000 of our money to help
a developer who had contributed, ironically, about $120,000 to his campaign?
Well, if that doesn't speak to the quid pro quo government, I don't know what does.
How can we trust an administration who holds a hearing on the Towson Gateway Project
in August and doesn't disclose to us that just a few weeks earlier, they gave the developer
a free no-strings-attached five-year contract extension.
And once again, all a closed secret.
How can we trust you when they say this $43 million subsidy is absolutely necessary
When Justice Pass Rowe, the Towson Rowe developer, declared in a press release that they had the capital and the expertise to move this forward.
So I ask you what has changed in that department. You all have forfeited our trust.
The county government serves the people. We do not serve Kevin Kamenitz or this county council.
The only way for you all to regain our trust is to be completely truthful and give us the material facts.
For example, the report that evaluates the risk assessment provides transparency.
We all want a vibrant Towson, but we want smart development.
And that will make our community better.
But first, you have to give us the facts.
You don't need to table...
You need now to table this rush, rush $42 million potential giveaway.
Work on your due diligence homework.
work, take a couple weeks, take a breath, and earn back our trust by providing transparency
to these processes.
Thank you.
Our next speaker is Henry Abrams, followed by Nancy Abrams.
Nancy is not here.
So our last speaker for the evening is Mr. Henry Abrams.
And thank you all again for your patience.
It's been a long work session, but we appreciate you coming out.
Thank you for letting me have the last work.
and thank you all for your patience in listening to all this. I have actually
two concerns. The first concern is that there is an assumption built into this
proposal that this money is essential, the money from the county is
essential to make this project happen. That may be true. I don't know that. I
hope the council is satisfied that without this money this project cannot
not go forward, and I would only ask in that regard whether the prior developer made a profit
out of the transfer of this deal to the current developer. I have no idea, and I'm not suggesting
that that is true. I just think that the council ought to be satisfied on that point.
The other concern I have is that as I understand the project, the developer is not taking
any risk with, whatsoever, with respect to the money that the county is putting up.
If the projections don't prove true, the developer has no responsibility for that.
There are two concerns I have with respect to that.
One, you all keep talking about the fact that you're going to get back the money you're
putting forward.
But the truth is, given the time value of money, you're not going to get the money
back that you put forward.
at least you should get the the value of the 46 million dollars over time 46
million dollars now or 43 million dollars now and 43 million dollars in 10
or 15 years simply a loss to the county the other thing is that from my
perspective as a citizen of the county and I don't I don't object to you
putting forward the money if it's needed because I think this is a great
project for the county but I don't understand why the developer doesn't
guarantee the return of at least the 43 million if there is no interest on that
money. Shouldn't there be a guarantee? That's it. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank
Thank you, Mr. Davis. I guess I wanted to make one comment as we close out because I kept
hearing everybody talk about the money, and it was almost as if no one heard it. So maybe
Aunty Mon Bonsoon was too technical. But we're not giving anyone $43 million. They
are getting $26 million, which they would be entitled to
because the program has been running for almost 30 years.
The second part is the $16 million, which
is monies that they would get.
The only thing we're doing is sort of priming the pump,
is giving it to them early.
They still pay it back.
So for everybody that keeps running around saying,
are we giving someone $43 million and $16 million,
is simply not true and it's almost as if everybody comes here and they listen to
the experts and then they say well where is the experts what do you know well
there was the expert sitting there and let me tell you something else one more
thing before I close out mr. Holman you can say anything you want but here's a
guy that works probably 70 hours a week looking out for the interest of this
county. If I come here on a Sunday afternoon this guy is here working. This guy, and he
says it's a good deal, that's fine enough for me. Not to mention we pay enough money
for Mr. Sage Policy Group who have facts. And for people to say that there's, you know,
where's more information, I'll give you my copy if you like it. Here's a, you know,
I don't know how many pages it is indicating why it is a good transaction for the county.
But I guess some people don't want to let that change the narrative.
All right, thank you very much.
On that note, you know, we're 5'10".
I did want to say thank you all very much for coming.
I sincerely appreciate all sides coming out, taking your time, time off of work, come out and speak.
I think there are a lot of good points and I do appreciate the discussion.
And I want to wish you all happy holidays and please safe drive home.
Thank you.