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That is pretty promising from a public sector perspective. Again, I'm quite sure that there

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are people who reject just from the get-go the notion of public participation in such deals.

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But this is Baltimore County's and Towson's response to the fact that it is becoming increasingly

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difficult to attract top-flight employers. Why? Because downtown Columbia is being redeveloped.

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Because Hanover and Anne Rondo County is very nice. Because there is a harbor east. There's

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a harbor point. There's a port Covington. There's a locus point. And all of these

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These areas are competing with Towson for the most prestigious employers, the highest

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paying employers in the region.

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And we really do not have a response yet to that.

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Towson Row is our response and it's a good one.

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So that is our analysis.

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I know that this county council has a lot of deliberations.

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It's a serious issue.

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$16.4 million is $16.4 million and it's important.

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But there might be people in the room who feel that this means less money for

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more playgrounds, less money for school construction, less money for public safety.

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In fact, if you look at the cash flows, early in the next decade, and many of these payments

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are made by the county early on, but after those few years, the net fiscal impact of

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this term is sharply positive, more than $3 million per year, just looking at the

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taxes generated by the development itself, and by the year of 2040, we're talking

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about $4.8 million in incremental net revenues to this county, above and beyond any contributions

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that it's making, and its contributions by that point will event it, and that doesn't

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include income tax. It's a big number. And so ultimately this project means more money

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for school construction, more money for teachers, more money for public safety, more money

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for our exquisite park system. And that's my report. Thank you, Will, for the opportunity.

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Thank you.

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Thank you.

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Yes.

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Thank you, Mr. Anderson, and certainly appreciate your assessment.

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Mr. Arnie.

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Let me just say.

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I could not have done a better job on the assessment myself.

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You did a fine job.

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So thank you very much.

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Thank you, Councilman.

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Not really a question, but I appreciate the comment.

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Oh, yeah.

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No, that was it for now.

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I reserve their balance of my time.

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Councillor Marks.

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Thank you very much.

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I have a number of questions.

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I'll give some of them to you and some of them to any future witnesses.

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A question I've gotten from quite a few constituents.

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Why a grant versus a loan?

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That's a great question.

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Actually, Will, did you want to, your hand at that?

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You've been part and parcel of negotiation with me.

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Well we've got we've got a bunch of finance questions here some of these

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direct finance questions I'll ask that either our chief administrative officer

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or our finance officer takes.

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In the negotiations from the very beginning we

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took a we we took a very close look at exactly how we had structured the deal

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at Towson West, the Centermark deal. Many of you the county had the county

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Money has made contributions both to 43 when it contributed with the state and put 20 percent

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into the project there on the state road.

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We've also contributed dollars into Owings Mills and that again was in conjunction with

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the state where the state put money in and the county put money in.

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We've also done it at CINEMARC and in the process of CINEMARC, CINEMARC the developer

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took advantage not only of the revitalization tax credit but also raised the issue

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very early on that the theater was also going to generate 10% admission taxes.

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And they were right about that.

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And we took a look at that and we structured the deal based upon the estimate of moviegoer

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activity and the admission taxes and calculating a number that we added to the revitalization

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tax credit present value.

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We did exactly the same thing here in order to, because this hotel would not exist

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without this particular project, it's building a hotel, we have a number of rooms that

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that we could peg to, look at vacancy rates,

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look at the dollars to be generated per room,

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P, present value it back to a number,

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and that's the 16.4 million dollar number you've seen.

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I think the discussion about roads is apples and oranges.

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I mean, I used to work for the federal highway

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administration, so I know that states partner

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with federal government on 80-20 split,

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and that's what we did with 43.

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This is public-private, so I think

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that's a little different.

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What if the hotel fails?

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What if the hotel fails?

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What if the hotel fails?

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We've up fronted this money.

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What happens if it fails?

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I just look at Baltimore City.

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Let me finish.

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I just look at Baltimore City, where the city put an awful lot of money into that enterprise,

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and I think it's had some failures over the years.

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Well, sir, I would prefer not to get into any discussion about any tips that Baltimore City has done and constructed.

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it. This hotel is of modest size. We're talking about a hotel in the mid-200s, rooms. We took

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a look at those numbers to see if they made sense in terms of us, in terms of what happens

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elsewhere and what hotels we have elsewhere in the general town scenario. Quite frankly,

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I don't believe that that is the most is likely to happen and and quite frankly

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nor do I nor do I believe that based upon the investment that the developers

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making here as you heard it's a 350 million dollar development of which the

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county has got 26 million of an already existing credit that they were

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otherwise entitled to versus and the negotiation of this present value

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number so quite frankly we when we took a look at these numbers we did

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I did not think that that was likely to happen.

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Okay.

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I thought a good part of the analysis was the property tax revenue

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that would be generated by this project relative to what's there right now.

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This was something that came up repeatedly during the Towson-Gateway discussion.

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And could you, Mr. Anderson, talk about the property tax revenue being

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generated right now versus the project that built out?

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Sure.

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And if you look at, I think we've shared the summary in the back appendix B of the Sage Policy Study that summarizes some of the flows of money, and I think this is a good reference point for revenues coming in.

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and Mr. Rousseau pointed to this when he talked about an acceleration coming in

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out years. The net county outflow next to the column that says county revenue.

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So you can see property tax revenues currently $145,000 on the property

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which sounds about right if anyone's seen the condition of the property right

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now we don't have anything there. But as each element comes online so over

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So this first five years while the county is making its contributions, provided that

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the developer is prepared to add each component and has pulled permits and is ready, you'll

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see that the revenues start climbing.

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So at no point do we actually have property tax not being collected.

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You'll see it jump from the $145 up to the $2 million and hone its way up to $3.7

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million.

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Right.

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In our report, we put that by fiscal year 2022, it's $3.2 million.

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and by your fiscal year 40 it's 3 point sorry 4.7 million in property tax

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collections from this project okay that today as I say 140 as will said 145

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thousand so the increment is massive

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I guess wanted to just to make it real

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clear on that particular issue in terms of if it were to fail the issue is as

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I understand that you could correct me if I'm wrong.

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If things go exceedingly well with your multipliers,

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we get paid back in eight to 10 years.

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If it goes as projected, we get paid back 12 to 14 years.

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If things don't go that well,

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they didn't take us 15, 18 years to get paid back.

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But as long as the project is there,

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we're going to get our money back.

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True?

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That's true as long as the question is the payback period.

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I will say that there are no guarantees in life.

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the Hilton Hotel downtown, the Convention Center Hotel,

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I believe was a $300 million project, over 700 rooms.

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This is a different scale, but it's also a different market.

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If you look at how business operates in Baltimore County,

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where do business people meet?

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Pikesville Hilton, they meet in Hunt Valley,

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the Hunt Valley Inn, they meet in White Marsh.

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There's not many places for people to meet in Towson.

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This market is-

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And there's no conference center either.

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And this market is starving for this hotel.

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Even that doesn't guarantee success.

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But we're not talking about a saturated market.

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We're talking about a very much underserved market.

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And by the way, this hotel will not be staying in isolation.

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It will be surrounded by retail space, office space,

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so on and so forth.

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And it's very well situated.

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Very close off 695, so on and so forth.

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I think we know where this is.

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And so no guarantees here.

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But it seems to me quite likely

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from an economic perspective, this hotel is a success.

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Councilwoman Oman?

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Thank you.

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Mr. Oman, could you please address once again the $43 million, which is a number that we

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keep hearing as a council and people are saying, why are we giving away $43 million?

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Can you, would you mind going over that yet again so we can understand it?

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Certainly.

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There are two pieces to the $43 million.

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The one piece relates to the revitalization tax credit.

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And based upon, and the revitalization tax credit has been in the Baltimore County Code for a couple of decades.

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What that provide is for is that in a situation where an investor invests in excess of $10 million,

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dollars, they are able to take the enhanced property taxes and defer them.

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The deal that I mentioned before that we struck related to bringing the

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cinema mark here and the theaters there was that we did a present value of

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that stream of payments that the county could otherwise expect to receive

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during that period of ten years. We discounted it back to come to a present

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value number. And that present value number was a contribution into the financing of the

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project. That helped that project go the way this does. It contributes to the financing.

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In return, the county will get the property taxes that would be paid over that period

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of time. The separate issue has to do with the hotel, the grant for the hotel, and it's

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It's tied back to the 8% transient occupancy, what's commonly called the motel hotel tax

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that the county receives, and in that particular case, we again, we took a look at the number

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of rooms to be constructed.

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The county gets its hotel occupancy tax off of the value of the room rentals.

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It does not collect off sales of food or the rent of conference rooms.

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It gets that money, that money may be taxed by the state, a sales tax, but what we get is charged back to the rooms.

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So you take a look at the number of rooms, you take a look at the market rate for the rooms, the potential occupancy of the rooms versus the vacancy rate.

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And you project, and you take that stream of payments, you discount it back in order to make that contribution.

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Now, the county will then collect the 8% on the rooms.

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and and so that will happen and and that's the structure of how the deal was

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went on the one hand and already existing property tax credit that's been

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in the law for quite some time we will instead of not collecting the property

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tax we will collect the property tax and we'll make an upfront payment in

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this case we will collect the motel hotel tax and we're making an upfront

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payment because that because those that stream of revenue would not be there

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if they did not build the hotel.

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Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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Councilman Bevan.

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Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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I would also like to make a comment.

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The Towson Marriott, will that Marriott be closing in 2018?

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They're turning that into student housing.

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That is my understanding.

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So weren't there be a more, certainly more of a need

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for a hotel once that closes?

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Yes.

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Thank you, not so.

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Thank you.

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I have a question for Mr. Homan.

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Mr. Homan, when looking at these fund advances, fiscal year 18, 2.3, fiscal year 19, 18.5, fiscal year 20, 5.5, and then 5.5, 5.5, 5.5, the 18.5, is that coming from unappropriated surplus?

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That will be, it's pay go, so it's a combination of projected revenue and or surplus, right?

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The source to be determined as we move into the budget process.

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Okay.

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And then I have a question for Anibon and Will, is some people, you know, free market

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capitalists, so to speak, they might say, hey, why don't you just let the market

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and then let the market decide with private investment and if they can't build it within

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private investment, maybe it shouldn't be built, what would be your response to say a free market

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capitalist just saying that they should all be private?

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00:14:01,810 --> 00:14:06,930
Right, so it's a great question. I face a similar issue in Frederick where they're talking about

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building a conference center hotel there and other issues as well. Here's the thing.

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We are competing with other jurisdictions and their public sectors have participated

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aggressively in deals, and not just the city. In downtown Columbia, with Howard Hughes, Howard

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00:14:22,810 --> 00:14:26,650
County is participating in that deal, a fairly significant tax reform and financing deal.

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We see similar things in and around the county and elsewhere. So first of all, that's the

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nature of competition. The second thing is that the public participation provides the

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public sector with an opportunity, as representatives of the people, to participate in the project

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to help shape the project. What does the community want? It wants jobs. What does it want? It

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wants a better built environment. What does it want? It wants more business activity,

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more taxable activity. Does this project do that? Yes. And so if the question is can

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Can we attract private capital to both?

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The answer is yes, perhaps some, but we wouldn't get the project that we want, we wouldn't get

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the economic impacts that we want, and we would lose market share, at least theoretically,

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to Columbia, to Hanover, to downtown Baltimore, so on and so forth. And we need to have a vibrant

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economy right here. And so I think that's the answer to that, that the private market,

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in many cases, is not really functioning here. Public sectors across the region are

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participating with developers and this is our way and by the way relative to

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other communities the ask for public participation here is quite small and I

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guess the follow-up on that and then I see a bunch of hands is at what level do

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you think appropriate where the government should get involved and

237
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participate at what threshold you know lots of economic development out there

238
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lots of developers out there should it be 200 million should it be a bigger

239
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goal than that at what point do we get involved and you know try to

240
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to stimulate economic objectives, I guess.

241
00:16:01,980 --> 00:16:03,900
Thank you, Councilman Quirk, Chairman Quirk.

242
00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:07,060
The public sector is involved in everything.

243
00:16:07,540 --> 00:16:09,600
I mean, everyone that's in this room right now,

244
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the public sector allowed them to get here,

245
00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:13,760
because they came on roads, they came on sidewalks,

246
00:16:13,820 --> 00:16:14,200
so on and so forth.

247
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The whole thing is a public-private partnership.

248
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And there is this view out there that,

249
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some people have the view that private sector is good,

250
00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:22,320
public sector is inefficient.

251
00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:24,860
Some people have the view that private sector

252
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is corrupt public sector goods. The whole nation is a public-private partnership. Everything

253
00:16:30,740 --> 00:16:35,280
is public-private. Now, it gets tricky when you have deals like this and public participation

254
00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:40,100
is 16.4 million, the right number, all those kinds of issues. But this is the public sector

255
00:16:40,100 --> 00:16:43,760
and private sector moving in the same direction, creating jobs, creating broadly shared prosperity.

256
00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:48,660
That's what this is about. And we're doing this for our county. And the folks in,

257
00:16:48,660 --> 00:16:52,820
you know, in Ellicott City are doing that for their county. And the folks in

258
00:16:52,820 --> 00:16:55,580
Westminster, I presume we're trying to do it for their county and so on and so forth.

259
00:16:56,220 --> 00:17:00,000
And so, you know, the public sector is in some sense always involved.

260
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And we've become accustomed to the notion that counties finance roads and bridges and

261
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sidewalks and so on and so forth.

262
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But we also, I think, have become increasingly comfortable with the notion that, well, the

263
00:17:10,860 --> 00:17:15,560
public sector participates in economic development, and it's trying to shape this built environment

264
00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:17,720
or the economy such that there's a larger middle class.

265
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And there's going to be a lot of middle income jobs produced by this development

266
00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:23,440
during the construction phase, and thereafter.

267
00:17:24,380 --> 00:17:25,160
Councilwoman Oman?

268
00:17:25,580 --> 00:17:26,780
Excuse me, can I add to that?

269
00:17:26,780 --> 00:17:27,120
Oh, I'm sorry.

270
00:17:27,180 --> 00:17:27,800
Well, sorry.

271
00:17:28,340 --> 00:17:29,460
Pardon me, Councilwoman.

272
00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:35,720
To the point of competition, so the idea

273
00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:39,900
that we have a very mobile set of population

274
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that we're chasing here.

275
00:17:41,740 --> 00:17:44,440
Our kids, young people around the country,

276
00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:47,800
people make decisions now and have a lot of options

277
00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:48,640
to move quickly.

278
00:17:48,820 --> 00:17:50,680
The reason that we are building schools

279
00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:54,440
at the rate we are is to win the quality of life game, right?

280
00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:57,880
And projects like this at Towson Row are projects

281
00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:01,720
that you wait to say is this, will this have a factor

282
00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:04,220
that helps win the quality of life game or is it something

283
00:18:04,220 --> 00:18:06,180
that they could pick up and leave

284
00:18:06,180 --> 00:18:08,220
when they have a better deal facing them in Texas

285
00:18:08,220 --> 00:18:09,860
in a year or something, right?

286
00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:12,180
So these types of anchors that are knit

287
00:18:12,180 --> 00:18:14,740
into the community add more weight when you're looking

288
00:18:14,740 --> 00:18:17,760
at the calculation and they are a unique calculation

289
00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:23,520
every time. The deals are different absolutely every time. But when we're competing you look at

290
00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:29,440
what can stay and what can grow in a multiplier many years down the road. So excuse me for interrupting

291
00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:34,720
Councilwoman. Thank you. And maybe you can answer this. Has Baltimore County done this sort of

292
00:18:36,260 --> 00:18:41,900
deal before? Yes, yes. So we've been involved I mean right here in Towson so we helped at

293
00:18:41,900 --> 00:18:47,260
Towson Square with the garage and now what's becoming a part of Circle East. We were in the

294
00:18:47,260 --> 00:18:52,380
investment building with Towson University's logo on it. We've been

295
00:18:52,380 --> 00:18:58,020
involved in projects like GM out in White Marsh trying to help them do

296
00:18:58,020 --> 00:19:03,160
expansions. We've been down in the chairs district at the research park

297
00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:07,060
helping the research park come online and stay online. So we've been

298
00:19:07,060 --> 00:19:11,300
participating in deals like this for many many years. The commercial

299
00:19:11,300 --> 00:19:15,160
revitalization district program has been very successful and used in all

300
00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:19,040
districts. This one looks a little bit different than the others but then again

301
00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:23,480
they all look different from one another. And how much private money is in the

302
00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:28,740
initial investment? So in the Towson Road there's $350 million in private

303
00:19:28,740 --> 00:19:35,360
dollars. Our 16 million is where we is where we point to a leverage of 20 to

304
00:19:35,360 --> 00:19:39,960
one or better than 20 to one of private dollars excuse me private dollars

305
00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:40,800
to public dollars.

306
00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:42,560
Thank you.

307
00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:43,300
Councilman Katch?

308
00:19:43,540 --> 00:19:44,760
Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman.

309
00:19:46,060 --> 00:19:47,780
Councilwoman Bevin's asked the question

310
00:19:47,780 --> 00:19:52,740
about the hotel that Towson University is purchasing.

311
00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:58,480
Did Towson University make them a deal they couldn't refuse?

312
00:19:58,900 --> 00:20:01,020
Or is the hotel not doing well?

313
00:20:02,890 --> 00:20:04,030
I'm not certain.

314
00:20:04,130 --> 00:20:06,330
I think that's one we can direct to Towson University.

315
00:20:06,970 --> 00:20:08,130
I think it was just a solemn bear.

316
00:20:08,170 --> 00:20:11,190
Yeah, I think it was just a solemn bear.

317
00:20:11,190 --> 00:20:13,050
How did interest in the hotel?

318
00:20:13,410 --> 00:20:16,510
So they're no longer going to be in the hotel business.

319
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:21,260
Again, I think that's one for Towson University, sir.

320
00:20:21,580 --> 00:20:23,500
No, I'm just curious if we're going to re,

321
00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:28,000
in other words, if this hotel is going to be successful,

322
00:20:30,300 --> 00:20:34,360
then the one that Towson University is taking over,

323
00:20:35,420 --> 00:20:37,000
has it been successful?

324
00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:39,780
That might be an example of how things

325
00:20:39,780 --> 00:20:40,940
may go in the future.

326
00:20:41,900 --> 00:20:47,160
And I don't, you'll have an answer, anyone have an answer to how that hotel's doing?

327
00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:48,320
Sure.

328
00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:49,080
Good.

329
00:20:49,360 --> 00:20:50,040
On the answer you have

330
00:21:06,130 --> 00:21:10,810
to convert an area, I think you'll find that the community is very upset.

331
00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:21,560
The area at most of the time is almost 90% of the sharing group can be involved with all of you.

332
00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:22,020
Okay.

333
00:21:22,740 --> 00:21:23,260
Desperately.

334
00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:24,240
Yeah.

335
00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:25,200
Okay, good.

336
00:21:25,300 --> 00:21:26,220
Thank you.

337
00:21:26,360 --> 00:21:27,920
I'm glad you could answer that for me.

338
00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:36,580
Okay, is the hotel going to be one that can sponsor conventions or is it just going to be a hotel?

339
00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:46,000
Well, I don't believe they have secured their hotel tenant yet, but at the size of it, we wouldn't call this a convention center hotel.

340
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:55,960
Okay, now secondly, looking at the $43 million investment by the county.

341
00:21:55,960 --> 00:22:04,400
I see that the first year that it's going to be cost the taxpayers 18 million.

342
00:22:05,060 --> 00:22:12,020
And then for the next four years after that, which goes in past the next administration,

343
00:22:12,420 --> 00:22:16,420
it's going to be $5,500,000 a year.

344
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:25,800
Now, is it true that the hotel, the $16 million is based on anticipated revenues

345
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:28,340
for the next 30 years from the hotel tax?

346
00:22:29,140 --> 00:22:31,920
I'd like to correct one initial statement if I may, sir.

347
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:34,320
At the beginning, that 18 million,

348
00:22:35,140 --> 00:22:38,740
part of what the county has done to reduce its cash burden

349
00:22:38,740 --> 00:22:43,340
toward that 18 million, reduce it by 2.3 million,

350
00:22:43,360 --> 00:22:47,620
was to sell at appraised market value,

351
00:22:47,820 --> 00:22:51,240
parcels of land and contribute those proceeds back

352
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,240
so that the out of pocket for the county

353
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:58,140
money is not coming out of the general fund at $18 million.

354
00:22:58,340 --> 00:23:04,380
But then to your question, yeah, the hotel receipts were projected out over the course

355
00:23:04,380 --> 00:23:05,780
of three decades, that's correct.

356
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:12,220
And the money will be distributed over five years, correct?

357
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:13,840
That's correct as well.

358
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:20,120
So as the developer meets the thresholds of that they're prepared to take on a new

359
00:23:20,120 --> 00:23:22,920
component, that's when each disbursement will go.

360
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:30,020
So it's not a full disbursement at the at the outset. So you're talking about maybe somebody buying a building a custom house

361
00:23:30,020 --> 00:23:32,300
and so and and it's a

362
00:23:32,980 --> 00:23:35,940
Drawal schedule. I assume you have certain

363
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:41,660
Percent of it done and you've paid the subs etc. Then you're you're eligible for the next

364
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:49,900
Payment is that about right when when permits have been applied for and it is ready to add an element site such as the hotel

365
00:23:49,900 --> 00:23:53,000
Well, that's when it will trigger that the disbursement is allowed.

366
00:23:53,360 --> 00:23:59,260
Okay, the 26 million,

367
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:06,220
what I see the revitalization tax credits.

368
00:24:06,940 --> 00:24:15,200
And that is based on the first, on the scale down project.

369
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:22,140
correct? In other words, this isn't the same project that Caves Valley initially proposed.

370
00:24:23,020 --> 00:24:30,840
This is a scaled down project. The 26 million is based on the present value of future tax

371
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:36,620
credits on the currently approved development plan, the plan that has come through. Correct.

372
00:24:36,620 --> 00:24:45,720
Okay now what happens if the plans let's say change over the next two or three

373
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:58,920
years instead of building a let's say 905 bed student housing complex it's five

374
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:02,600
hundred that's an excellent question there's a number of protections for the

375
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:07,220
county here. One of them that you're pointing to is that that 26 and a half

376
00:25:07,220 --> 00:25:13,140
minute that is a maximum. So as these elements come in in slightly different

377
00:25:13,140 --> 00:25:18,060
fashion than what's projected when they do come in it will be based on what's

378
00:25:18,060 --> 00:25:23,460
reality but it this is a maximum value not to exceed. So we have two

379
00:25:23,460 --> 00:25:28,040
protections there. We have the the timing of disbursement over five years

380
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:33,500
when they're ready for pieces and that this is a not to exceed based on whatever the square

381
00:25:33,500 --> 00:25:36,080
footage or the number of hotel rooms actually come in.

382
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:43,440
Now will the council have any role in this any longer?

383
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:58,840
If we approve this, then are we, in essence, tying the entire next administration to this

384
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,740
expenditure in the budget?

385
00:26:02,540 --> 00:26:07,560
Well, council has been active in this over the course of a number of years here.

386
00:26:07,740 --> 00:26:11,240
Several approvals have come in, including the development, all through the development

387
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:11,740
process.

388
00:26:11,740 --> 00:26:16,640
But we are entering into a legally binding contract here in the development.

389
00:26:16,900 --> 00:26:20,480
So it is, the county is participating over these years.

390
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:21,780
So, that's the question.

391
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:27,920
The county will be obligated to, in essence,

392
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:33,280
fund these five years totaling $43 million.

393
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:43,640
dollars if the what's been approved is actually comes to fruition provided that

394
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:48,560
the developer meets all the terms of the agreement of which there are many okay

395
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:56,200
so when then let's say that the developer decides well we're going to

396
00:26:56,200 --> 00:27:08,360
build a 700-bed student facility. How does that work? Where would the county then,

397
00:27:10,380 --> 00:27:10,800
how

398
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:16,320
would it be calculated, how much less the county is going to contribute and when

399
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:24,180
would this happen? When would the developer receive less money? Well, on

400
00:27:24,180 --> 00:27:28,400
the timing it'll be when they've come in for approved permits that we're dealing

401
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:33,180
with each component on how does the calculation change for the county's

402
00:27:33,180 --> 00:27:36,760
participation that one I think I'll defer to finance on how they're how

403
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:38,240
they calculate down from there

404
00:29:39,630 --> 00:29:44,550
Can you tell me where we are with a high-performance tax credits?

405
00:29:44,810 --> 00:29:47,710
Isn't there a delay of...

406
00:30:32,580 --> 00:30:35,860
And the last question.

407
00:30:35,860 --> 00:30:49,500
question, why the largest amount the first year? Why do we have an $18 million payout

408
00:30:49,500 --> 00:30:55,520
the first year and then $5 million each year after that? Why wouldn't it be divided by

409
00:30:55,520 --> 00:31:01,680
the full thing, $43 million being divided by $5 million and $8.6 million a year? What

410
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,020
What is the thinking?

411
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:14,900
Well the timing of getting pieces of the program open, student housing, hotel, there's certain

412
00:31:14,900 --> 00:31:20,140
timing around student housing to deliver student housing in time for the new students that

413
00:31:20,140 --> 00:31:23,600
are coming to Towson or Goucher for that matter.

414
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:25,740
So that's part of it.

415
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,200
There's a cycle around that primary element.

416
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:32,040
But the other part of it is just if you look at the condition of the site right now,

417
00:31:32,500 --> 00:31:36,540
there is a tremendous amount of infrastructure work that needs to be done.

418
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,480
And that is where most of the costs are at the beginning.

419
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:46,600
So it's kind of a two-fold reason to need the money upfront early.

420
00:31:48,540 --> 00:31:54,420
With the site as it is today, how much money has been expended so far

421
00:31:54,420 --> 00:32:00,500
in pulling down the buildings and do we know I think that's a question we could

422
00:32:00,500 --> 00:32:05,800
ask the developer I'm not certain so what I'm wondering is this 350 over and

423
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:12,200
above what's already been spent or does it include what's already been spent that

424
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:18,720
is one I'd have to do yeah yeah okay so they will be testified yeah they'll be

425
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:23,720
okay I'm Councilman Markson Councilman almond yeah to address Councilman

426
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:30,240
catch's point about the hotel and I want to I want to begin by saying Greenberg

427
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:34,900
Gibbons I think is a sterling reputation and has done some outstanding

428
00:32:34,900 --> 00:32:37,740
projects throughout the county including the shops at Kenilworth here in

429
00:32:37,740 --> 00:32:44,020
Towson. There is I think capacity for another hotel in Towson like has been

430
00:32:44,020 --> 00:32:49,780
described. The Chamber of Commerce did a survey that showed that employers

431
00:32:49,780 --> 00:32:55,740
such as Stanley Black and Decker use that hotel significantly, and that the additional

432
00:32:55,740 --> 00:33:02,640
hotel space in the area cannot accommodate what we would need if the maria closes, and

433
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:03,620
nothing replaces it.

434
00:33:04,300 --> 00:33:08,620
So I think there is the capacity for this sort of complex, but it's our job to ask

435
00:33:08,620 --> 00:33:12,080
questions, and that's why I asked that about what happens if the hotel fails.

436
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:21,860
I think you were wondering an interesting point about whether the council has a role in this once we approve the contract.

437
00:33:23,020 --> 00:33:28,680
And so I asked Mr. Holman, suppose the county's financial situation deteriorates.

438
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:34,100
Is there a way for the county to change course and undo this funding commitment?

439
00:34:22,970 --> 00:34:30,070
it. Well, I'm glad you brought the timing of this. There's an old saying in politics

440
00:34:30,070 --> 00:34:36,290
that you release things on a Friday that might have total support, that have some controversy.

441
00:34:36,950 --> 00:34:42,770
I found out about this the Friday after Thanksgiving returning from the Eastern Shore, and I think

442
00:34:42,770 --> 00:34:48,190
my colleagues were in the same boat and in a press release of all things, and here we

443
00:34:48,190 --> 00:34:52,830
are having to make a decision on something of a considerable magnitude, and I think that

444
00:34:52,830 --> 00:34:53,930
puts us under the gun.

445
00:34:54,650 --> 00:34:57,270
Could we have been brought into this at an earlier stage?

446
00:35:20,230 --> 00:35:27,690
So you think having one work session on this, one month to decide if a $43 million deal is

447
00:35:27,690 --> 00:35:28,690
Yes, that's enough time.

448
00:36:13,620 --> 00:36:20,560
I think it's an injustice to Mr. Gibbons, who is an outstanding developer who has a deadline

449
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:20,940
to meet.

450
00:36:21,540 --> 00:36:24,980
I think it's an injustice to the citizens who could have had more time to look at this.

451
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:29,880
And I think if we had been briefed on this in October or November, maybe we would have

452
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:33,320
been in a different situation than reading about an enterprise release the Friday after

453
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:33,680
Thanksgiving.

454
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:40,740
I do want to ask Mr. Anderson something about the garage and I'm just going to read this from an email I got from one of my constituents.

455
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:48,940
This is regarding the lease. Quote, it permits the developer to charge whatever it wants for use of the space.

456
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:53,300
I used to park in that garage and I can tell you it was absolutely jam-packed every day.

457
00:36:53,500 --> 00:36:57,140
Parking is only available in the roof on most days and some day it's closed.

458
00:36:57,420 --> 00:37:00,060
Even if the county moves its fleet vehicles to a different garage,

459
00:37:00,060 --> 00:37:05,040
The fact remains that two next door buildings have insufficient parking for its commercial residential tenants

460
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:12,640
Is there any prohibition against the developer raising the cost of those other businesses and residents who have no other viable parking option nearby?

461
00:37:14,900 --> 00:37:20,140
So the question is is there a prohibition against the changing of the rates based on the market, right?

462
00:37:21,460 --> 00:37:23,000
I think I'll defer that one as well

463
00:38:39,310 --> 00:38:51,610
right now than anyone who's constructed a lease for that plot knowing that the county has a reversion rate of fundamental error in business records, because the county has had that version of it from the beginning.

464
00:38:52,130 --> 00:38:53,670
And the county has never signed

465
00:38:56,740 --> 00:38:59,220
any of these beyond July or the night.

466
00:39:01,940 --> 00:39:02,560
Anything else?

467
00:39:03,500 --> 00:39:04,380
Councilwoman Allman.

468
00:39:05,100 --> 00:39:07,100
Yes, this is from Mr. Bussill.

469
00:39:07,100 --> 00:39:17,140
In light of the fact that our income tax distribution came in lower than expected what is the revised

470
00:39:17,140 --> 00:39:20,880
projected surplus balance do you know that yet?

471
00:39:21,700 --> 00:39:33,440
No I don't and the surplus has to be for our triple AAA bond rating 5% is that correct

472
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:37,500
And we as a county usually try and keep 10%.

473
00:39:38,860 --> 00:39:44,640
Yes, this has been a fiscally conservative county for a long time, for as long as anyone can remember.

474
00:39:46,380 --> 00:39:50,460
With this information, do you have any idea if we're going to be able to keep that 10%?

475
00:39:52,100 --> 00:39:56,200
You know, this is what I would say to that councilman. It depends a lot on the economy.

476
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,320
And one of the reasons, a couple of reasons,

477
00:39:59,220 --> 00:40:01,540
that the income tax revenues that come in

478
00:40:01,540 --> 00:40:05,840
as people have thought is one,

479
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:08,060
the region didn't add quite as many jobs

480
00:40:08,060 --> 00:40:09,400
as people had thought it would.

481
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:14,040
Other regions seem to have picked up for some reason

482
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:16,240
in a way that the Baltimore region simply has not.

483
00:40:16,540 --> 00:40:18,240
Could be all kinds of things, city dynamics,

484
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:19,960
so on and so forth, but it just hasn't happened here

485
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:21,420
the way it has happened in Atlanta,

486
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,040
Las Vegas, Los Angeles, many other markets,

487
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:24,620
It's Minneapolis.

488
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,920
Second thing is that with the unemployment rate in our state

489
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:31,920
now neatly below 4%, there has been this notion

490
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,060
that incomes would grow faster.

491
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:36,300
And therefore, the taxable base would grow faster.

492
00:40:36,780 --> 00:40:39,760
But despite the fact that there is almost one job

493
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:42,460
opening now in this country for every unemployed citizen,

494
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:46,240
6 million job openings, 7 million unemployed in this country,

495
00:40:46,820 --> 00:40:48,800
wages are just not growing that rapidly.

496
00:40:48,900 --> 00:40:50,160
Over the past year, in our country,

497
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:53,100
2.5% growth in average hourly earnings.

498
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:57,640
Now, we march into 2018 with more economic momentum

499
00:40:57,640 --> 00:40:59,120
as a region and as a country

500
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:00,460
than we've seen in at least a decade.

501
00:41:01,260 --> 00:41:03,460
Next year will be another good year for job creation.

502
00:41:03,860 --> 00:41:06,360
And we have seen in the most recent data a pickup,

503
00:41:06,740 --> 00:41:07,760
not only in wage growth,

504
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:09,620
but also in the pace of job creation.

505
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:12,620
So I think that in 2018 at least

506
00:41:12,620 --> 00:41:13,600
from a calendar year perspective,

507
00:41:13,780 --> 00:41:14,780
and I know we're talking about fiscal years,

508
00:41:14,860 --> 00:41:15,900
but from a calendar year perspective,

509
00:41:16,220 --> 00:41:17,680
we're in quite good shape as a county,

510
00:41:18,060 --> 00:41:18,760
quite good shape.

511
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:21,120
And I think we'll be able to maintain that AAA bond rating

512
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:29,280
Thank you councilwoman Bevin's and councilman Crandall. Yes, I just want to switch gears back to the parking garages

513
00:41:31,720 --> 00:41:35,620
Councilman Mark said previously I'm not sure sure my question was answered

514
00:41:35,620 --> 00:41:41,340
So I I'm looking at the agreement that the developer would have with the county with the garage

515
00:41:41,340 --> 00:41:46,880
I believe that's the garage I park in I don't know the necessity of parking nowadays, but I know in

516
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:52,360
2004 when I came to work for the county there was an eight-year waiting list to

517
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:56,180
get into the garages across the street. Most people were parking up on Wehr

518
00:41:56,180 --> 00:42:01,960
Avenue or down at the library or paying eight dollars a day. So once this

519
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:09,540
agreement if this agreement would happen is there going to be a priority

520
00:42:09,540 --> 00:42:14,520
for county employees? First I'm not sure how many employees Mr. Hyman can

521
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:18,980
probably answer this, how many employees are currently parking in that garage and will

522
00:42:18,980 --> 00:42:21,840
they be promised that parking or will they lose their parking?

523
00:42:28,670 --> 00:42:33,030
First of all, not all employees are subsidized in terms of parking right now.

524
00:42:33,190 --> 00:42:40,590
Many employees have chosen not to take potential subsidized parking at places like

525
00:42:40,590 --> 00:42:46,630
Liberia and Tulber and they're paying other garages that are not revenue-authority garages

526
00:42:46,630 --> 00:42:51,830
and they're paying rates that, quite frankly, go up as high as $125 a month.

527
00:42:52,090 --> 00:42:52,950
Why would they do that?

528
00:42:53,030 --> 00:42:55,010
Why would they pay a higher rate in another garage?

529
00:42:55,510 --> 00:42:56,630
Why would they do that?

530
00:42:56,790 --> 00:43:01,370
Because they've chosen not to walk the distance from the library, the Tolberg garage,

531
00:43:01,370 --> 00:43:03,770
or the Cinemac garage, they've chosen to be closer.

532
00:43:03,930 --> 00:43:04,190
Okay.

533
00:43:04,410 --> 00:43:06,130
And they've been willing to pay that amount of money.

534
00:43:07,110 --> 00:43:11,450
We know that there is capacity at the other revenue authority garages.

535
00:43:11,450 --> 00:43:17,410
We are going to take advantage of that of the capacity by reassigning spaces.

536
00:43:18,210 --> 00:43:23,450
We have to work through that because there's obviously there are situations we have where

537
00:43:23,450 --> 00:43:27,210
employees have physical issues.

538
00:43:27,610 --> 00:43:32,170
They might be eligible for handicapped tags from the MVA.

539
00:43:32,750 --> 00:43:36,330
We accommodate that now on an individual basis.

540
00:43:36,550 --> 00:43:39,850
We're going to be looking at that and who the parkers are in that garage and

541
00:43:39,850 --> 00:43:40,390
go through that.

542
00:43:40,390 --> 00:43:51,970
It is not as heavily a public employee garage as Baltimore is in terms of that, and we know that and we are going to work through that.

543
00:43:53,030 --> 00:43:53,730
Thank you.

544
00:43:54,650 --> 00:44:06,630
And just a real quick piggyback on that one is I saw the base rate of possible rent would be about $400,000 per year. How does that compare to the current revenue that we attain?

545
00:44:06,630 --> 00:44:18,850
We don't receive any revenue from the car that garage that garage is obviously operated by the revenue authority and they currently have that garage right in their overall sheet.

546
00:44:19,130 --> 00:44:24,830
The fact of the matter is that the $400,000 rental is not a market rental.

547
00:44:25,030 --> 00:44:34,650
However, at the end of the deal is designed around the fact that the county wants to sell that property to the developer at a market rate.

548
00:44:34,650 --> 00:44:43,970
That's right. So what will happen is there'll be a as the as the arrangement with the Revenue Authority indicates the county will

549
00:44:43,970 --> 00:44:52,890
add to the life by investing in that garage to add to its life to take that garage out to 2034. That will enhance the market value of the

550
00:44:52,890 --> 00:44:59,850
garage. The developer will pay $400,000 a year for the first three years and if the county declares a surplus and offers

551
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:06,940
And they declined that. Then it goes up to a market rate of rent. That is a market that

552
00:45:06,940 --> 00:45:12,960
is not in a very advisory or smart move on the part of the developer. Any more than I

553
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,300
think not selling the garage for market value would be smart on the part of the county.

554
00:45:17,540 --> 00:45:22,980
Got it. Councilman Crandall. Sure. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

555
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:27,080
The Sage Policy

556
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:33,560
policy group did a great job on telling us why we should do this, but I haven't seen

557
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:38,700
a risk assessment, and there has to have been a risk assessment on this done somewhere.

558
00:45:41,420 --> 00:45:46,800
So I know that there's language in the contract about the developer meeting milestones.

559
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:52,920
I know that there's language about default, so I'm not sure what constitutes default,

560
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:53,680
what that means.

561
00:45:54,580 --> 00:45:59,600
There seem to be multiple parties that are part of this deal.

562
00:46:00,180 --> 00:46:04,060
So what happens if one of those parties should hit bankruptcy?

563
00:46:05,980 --> 00:46:12,820
So where is the risk assessment and, you know, how we're in the negotiations

564
00:46:12,820 --> 00:46:17,920
and how this thing was put together, how are those risks mitigated?

565
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:22,640
I think that we're lacking detail on that fundamental issue there.

566
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:27,460
You don't get into a financing deal this this large without assessing risk

567
00:46:27,460 --> 00:46:28,480
So

568
00:46:30,590 --> 00:46:34,730
on the on the risk mitigation, it's a great point. I mean partly you can

569
00:46:34,730 --> 00:46:40,270
Look at who your partners are in your deal and see what kind of track record they have

570
00:46:40,270 --> 00:46:46,390
One of the reasons we were excited by Greenberg givens coming into this is that track record shows a stellar

571
00:46:46,390 --> 00:46:50,130
Or Sterling is Councilman Marks put it record

572
00:46:50,130 --> 00:46:55,490
So that puts you at ease on the risk but on the risk mitigation part of the way

573
00:46:55,490 --> 00:47:01,650
this was structured on the payments was to mitigate any risk of market changes.

574
00:47:02,270 --> 00:47:07,850
We know we've already seen on this site geologic problems of doing an

575
00:47:07,850 --> 00:47:12,910
underground garage. So there are unknown risks of any project. Stretching out

576
00:47:12,910 --> 00:47:18,450
county contribution over a number of years is a smart way to move the risk

577
00:47:18,450 --> 00:47:25,890
back to the developer so that thresholds are met before the county participation is in there.

578
00:47:26,410 --> 00:47:31,450
So that is the primary vehicle that the county is used to make sure that as each piece is ready,

579
00:47:31,850 --> 00:47:34,070
we're ready to contribute to it and not the other way around.

580
00:47:38,740 --> 00:47:44,940
Would it be helpful for the members to get a copy of the contract that has these milestones in it

581
00:47:44,940 --> 00:47:48,480
and how these risks are mitigated within the contract?

582
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:53,940
Well, the development agreement contains those elements, sir.

583
00:47:55,580 --> 00:48:06,280
Again, you know, if you're looking at things in terms of risk, you're looking at economic factors.

584
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:11,640
You're looking at not only the individuals involved, and I agree.

585
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:20,340
I've been to some of the projects that Greenberg-Gibbons has completed, and they are outstanding.

586
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:30,500
But again, there are factors that Greenberg-Gibbons can't control, economic, whether causes

587
00:48:30,500 --> 00:48:36,120
construction delays, then that means that our payout period is longer.

588
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:42,360
So there must have been that assessment done of numerous factors.

589
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:55,800
Again, what is the risk to the county in terms of financial responsibility for other infrastructure needs that are ancillary to this project?

590
00:48:58,730 --> 00:49:01,890
So I think I would point back to what's in the development agreement.

591
00:49:02,050 --> 00:49:06,810
I know it's very complex in there, but many of these same issues are being asked not just by you,

592
00:49:06,810 --> 00:49:10,790
but by the financial partners that are coming into the to the private developers

593
00:49:11,370 --> 00:49:14,990
So for example, the risks about is there ample parking?

594
00:49:16,150 --> 00:49:22,510
To support this project these are questions that are being asked internally of our partners and their investors as well

595
00:49:22,510 --> 00:49:28,930
So there's a complexity here and not a singular risk assessment document that I think you might be

596
00:49:29,970 --> 00:49:33,470
Referring to so if you if you look into the development agreement

597
00:49:33,470 --> 00:49:40,530
You'll see where each of these contingencies are on the obligations that need to be met or the county participation won't follow

598
00:49:41,910 --> 00:49:42,590
Okay

599
00:49:45,290 --> 00:49:51,450
Now I know that we've done public sector assistance to private projects

600
00:49:52,130 --> 00:49:53,710
For many years in Baltimore County

601
00:49:54,330 --> 00:49:56,450
Have we used the

602
00:49:57,170 --> 00:49:57,530
anticipated

603
00:49:59,010 --> 00:50:03,950
tax credits in a CRD? Have we used those for upfront funding of a project before?

604
00:50:05,910 --> 00:50:13,130
Yes, those twice. So the Towson Investment Building,

605
00:50:17,750 --> 00:50:21,610
so both the Towson City Center and

606
00:50:21,610 --> 00:50:24,710
Towson Square, which is now part of the Circle East.

607
00:50:24,710 --> 00:50:26,450
Okay, so I would...

608
00:50:26,450 --> 00:50:27,770
And Owens Mills, sir.

609
00:50:28,630 --> 00:50:36,190
Okay, so in trying to champion our own CRDs in the seventh district,

610
00:50:38,130 --> 00:50:41,430
what's my criteria for telling potential developers,

611
00:50:41,910 --> 00:50:43,770
this is what the county's going to do?

612
00:50:45,330 --> 00:50:49,550
Well, as you and I have tried to do that in your district,

613
00:50:49,790 --> 00:50:52,050
sir, talk to owners and developers,

614
00:50:52,050 --> 00:50:57,490
and nudge them forward in investments in your district each is individual right so

615
00:50:57,490 --> 00:51:01,870
the what is the potential use what is the market showing and what does the county

616
00:51:01,870 --> 00:51:07,570
need based on that program I think when you look at the CRD it is a it is a very

617
00:51:07,570 --> 00:51:11,850
generous program to incent development in these districts which is why the

618
00:51:11,850 --> 00:51:18,760
county put them in place all those years ago well and

619
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:34,920
I would venture to

620
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:38,940
say that the success of that has not been great so

621
00:51:41,220 --> 00:51:43,340
you know I just you know if I

622
00:51:43,940 --> 00:51:51,220
guess I'm doing the natural thing that council members do we're we're staunch

623
00:51:51,220 --> 00:51:59,660
defenders of our own district and we all want our piece of the pie and so you

624
00:51:59,660 --> 00:52:05,480
know I can use 43 million dollars in each of my four CRDs that's for sure

625
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:13,240
Well, I'm with you there, you know, I'm focused on putting jobs in every one of your districts

626
00:52:13,240 --> 00:52:20,540
and Councilman, you and I are working like maniacs to make sure that the trade point opportunity

627
00:52:20,540 --> 00:52:24,220
puts people in Dundalk and throughout the county back to work.

628
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:28,380
So I can appreciate what you're trying to do for your constituents and I share that.

629
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:33,360
And that's why this is such an exciting project because you don't often get an

630
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:37,580
An economist saying to you, do this project, it's going to bring 2,000 permanent jobs.

631
00:52:38,180 --> 00:52:40,940
Those are numbers that we pay attention to whatever district they're in.

632
00:52:41,500 --> 00:52:45,920
I'd like to point out, Councilman, if it's okay that risk is double-sided here, and there's

633
00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:48,780
a risk that there's going to be a big hole in the ground in downtown Towson for time

634
00:52:48,780 --> 00:52:54,960
at Memorial, that Towson University merit will close and we won't have the requisite

635
00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:59,680
hotel room capacity, meeting space capacity that we need in downtown Towson, that the

636
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:02,520
student housing is not built and therefore more and more students have to move

637
00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:06,600
into the neighborhoods, which I know that some people don't really want to have happen, that

638
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:12,580
we don't create 2,000 permanent jobs, that we don't have $92.5 million in income or $221

639
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:20,080
million in annual business sales. The risks are double-sided here. And the best way to

640
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:25,640
mitigate those risks is to work with the best, most reliable people. And it's not clear

641
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:29,300
to me that there's anyone better or more reliable than Greenberg Gibbons in this

642
00:53:29,300 --> 00:53:30,000
part of the country.

643
00:53:32,590 --> 00:53:39,910
Okay. Thank you. Quick question for you guys and maybe Fred is I know

644
00:53:39,910 --> 00:53:46,730
like an average citizen reading say for example the paper might say well 43 million how can

645
00:53:46,730 --> 00:53:51,470
Baltimore County come up with 43 million for this but maybe not 60 million additional

646
00:53:51,470 --> 00:53:58,010
for 120 million for example for a high school. So I think people would ask that question

647
00:53:58,010 --> 00:54:02,790
And so I wouldn't respond to that, but also I'd like to hear if any of you want to address it is,

648
00:54:03,430 --> 00:54:07,030
you know, when I look at this, the $26.6 million that goes in tax credits,

649
00:54:07,150 --> 00:54:10,710
obviously that's credits that they would receive otherwise and we're just fronting that.

650
00:54:10,990 --> 00:54:15,130
So that's money that's already part of this calculation, we're just doing the present value of it.

651
00:54:15,490 --> 00:54:23,930
So what we're really coming down to for a $350 million investment in Towson is about $16.4 million in public participation.

652
00:54:23,930 --> 00:54:28,430
You know, basically about 5% is on the onset of the overall deal.

653
00:54:29,010 --> 00:54:32,450
And so when you look at that, and you look at that 16.4 million,

654
00:54:33,110 --> 00:54:38,250
not only is that 16.4 million, it's actually broken out over five years.

655
00:54:38,390 --> 00:54:42,330
So ultimately, from a Pego standpoint, it's about 3.2 million,

656
00:54:42,450 --> 00:54:47,990
3,286,843 per year for five years where the public is participating.

657
00:54:48,430 --> 00:54:52,450
And even on that, we know that ultimately we covered that after about 12 years.

658
00:54:52,450 --> 00:54:58,650
And so I just think it's important that citizens that will say not understanding kind of how

659
00:54:58,650 --> 00:55:02,230
the numbers are broken down or with the tax credit, they might say, well, 43 million here,

660
00:55:02,290 --> 00:55:05,990
but why not, you know, for another new high school or toward another new high school?

661
00:55:06,390 --> 00:55:09,610
So I just want to be clear about how those numbers definitely are working, because

662
00:55:09,610 --> 00:55:12,890
I think it's easy for somebody to jump to the conclusion, not understanding the

663
00:55:12,890 --> 00:55:14,190
details underneath it.

664
00:55:14,650 --> 00:55:18,510
So saying that, I don't know, and either of the three of you have anything to

665
00:55:18,510 --> 00:55:22,050
I just have one point to that before I ask Fred to weigh in.

666
00:55:23,150 --> 00:55:27,650
Tax receipts never stop coming in the way this is structured.

667
00:55:28,810 --> 00:55:30,470
So while property value is low now,

668
00:55:30,670 --> 00:55:33,050
property taxes are coming in as the property goes up

669
00:55:33,050 --> 00:55:36,090
in assessment, those taxes keep coming to the county.

670
00:55:36,250 --> 00:55:37,350
We are not betting those.

671
00:55:37,910 --> 00:55:41,490
And we are also doing this with pay go.

672
00:55:41,590 --> 00:55:44,250
So we're not loading on a set of debt

673
00:55:44,250 --> 00:55:45,890
for a future application.

674
00:55:45,890 --> 00:55:50,690
So I'll let Fred talk to the decision-making about choosing opportunities which we have

675
00:55:50,690 --> 00:55:51,290
to do every day.

676
00:55:52,750 --> 00:55:56,110
Well, sir, I think you actually answered the question yourself.

677
00:55:56,390 --> 00:56:06,690
I mean, the hotel will generate the 8% tax on the rooms, and quite frankly, if the hotel

678
00:56:06,690 --> 00:56:10,850
hadn't been in the mix here, we wouldn't be talking about what we're talking about

679
00:56:10,850 --> 00:56:14,390
in terms of a separate $16 million from the other funds.

680
00:56:14,390 --> 00:56:20,750
so that specifically we're doing this because the hotel we all identified the

681
00:56:20,750 --> 00:56:26,750
fact that it was a worthy project and need to have a hotel in Towson and it's

682
00:56:26,750 --> 00:56:32,290
going to generate that it's going to generate 8% on the room rents and that

683
00:56:32,290 --> 00:56:37,330
well money will come back to the county over time so you know I think you

684
00:56:37,330 --> 00:56:40,750
answered it yourself when you when you described exactly the structure the

685
00:56:40,750 --> 00:56:44,350
the same, you know, when Ms. Armadass for clarification about that.

686
00:56:46,010 --> 00:56:46,670
Councilor Jones?

687
00:56:48,530 --> 00:56:49,050
Yes.

688
00:56:49,390 --> 00:56:50,790
Thank you, Chairman Perk.

689
00:56:53,130 --> 00:56:55,850
I had a number that was sticking in my mind,

690
00:56:55,950 --> 00:56:57,630
and I was wondering if you could help me with it.

691
00:56:58,370 --> 00:57:01,290
Is it true that the size of this project

692
00:57:01,290 --> 00:57:04,850
is will be 1.2 million square feet, which

693
00:57:04,850 --> 00:57:07,330
is the same size as Towsentown?

694
00:57:09,010 --> 00:57:24,110
Yes. There's similarity in terms of square footage. That's right. Now that square footage is across many, many uses, some of which is retail, some of it's hotel room, some of it's office space. Towson Town is all basically retail space in the food court. But yes, it's similarly scaled. Yeah.

695
00:57:25,250 --> 00:57:27,950
So to break it down, this is a big deal.

696
00:57:29,690 --> 00:57:32,510
It's a very big deal. It's the biggest deal in Towson right now.

697
00:57:32,510 --> 00:57:41,410
Okay, the reason I say that is because I've been reading all the documents that's been

698
00:57:41,410 --> 00:57:41,870
provided.

699
00:57:42,150 --> 00:57:46,870
I've been asking as many questions as I can to make sure that I'm totally understand

700
00:57:47,470 --> 00:57:53,950
what's going on with the $16 million, the $26 million, and the $350 million.

701
00:57:54,450 --> 00:57:57,050
And I am very bullish on Baltimore County.

702
00:57:57,530 --> 00:58:03,770
And I think you said it best, and I was sincere when I said that, you know, I could not say it better myself.

703
00:58:04,110 --> 00:58:14,590
We are competing against all these jurisdictions around us, whether it be Columbia, Baltimore City, other places.

704
00:58:16,410 --> 00:58:26,150
And, you know, I wish we lived in a world where there was no government financing into private industry.

705
00:58:26,150 --> 00:58:32,150
I mean, I wish we lived in a world where we didn't have to help fund the Raven Stadium.

706
00:58:33,230 --> 00:58:37,530
I wish we lived in that world, but we don't.

707
00:58:38,670 --> 00:58:45,490
And if this is what it takes for us to be competitive, for us to be a place where people

708
00:58:45,490 --> 00:58:50,750
want to come and invest money, after all, you know, the 350 million, the remainder

709
00:58:50,750 --> 00:58:54,750
of the 16 million that we're putting in is not small fries.

710
00:58:54,750 --> 00:59:21,890
I think this is just something we have to do, so I'm going to be very supportive of it, the project, because I think the project is good for Towson, is good for Baltimore County, it's going to provide significant jobs, and it's going to provide some revenues that we can use to fund other county services that are very important.

711
00:59:21,890 --> 00:59:28,550
So I'm very thankful to be quite frank that this project is moving forward.

712
00:59:28,970 --> 00:59:35,110
I don't like to hold in the ground that I see out there and people often talk about it.

713
00:59:35,430 --> 00:59:42,650
So in order for us to be the place, we need something to be here.

714
00:59:43,170 --> 00:59:48,790
And this will be a significant improvement to Towson and it will help Baltimore County

715
00:59:48,790 --> 00:59:51,310
and I believe it will help my district as well.

716
00:59:51,890 --> 00:59:55,330
The Randallstown Woodlawn Owings Mills Rices Town area.

717
00:59:56,030 --> 00:59:59,970
So I thank you gentlemen for your work on this issue.

718
01:00:00,680 --> 01:00:06,720
And that's all I have to say, and I'll still say the remainder of my time, just in case.

719
01:00:07,620 --> 01:00:11,980
Yeah, and, you know, I would, you know, thinking about this, I think all the council members,

720
01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:17,020
as well as Baltimore County citizens, need to ask themselves, you know, what is the cost of delay,

721
01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:21,920
or what is the cost of inaction? Here we're very fortunate. We have Brian Gibbons,

722
01:00:22,020 --> 01:00:26,080
so I think everybody recognizes that it's really a national figure.

723
01:00:26,080 --> 01:00:29,360
He's done amazing work, a great developer, great reputation.

724
01:00:30,060 --> 01:00:34,440
We also have CalSTRS, and what I know about capital, because I deal in capital and finance,

725
01:00:35,080 --> 01:00:39,240
is capital will flow where it's most accommodated, where it's best accommodated.

726
01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:42,640
And if we don't accommodate capital and we don't work with capital, guess where it goes?

727
01:00:42,740 --> 01:00:45,320
It goes elsewhere, and it goes elsewhere very quickly.

728
01:00:46,060 --> 01:00:50,680
And so when I think about this, I do think about, on one hand, cost of delay or an action,

729
01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:54,780
you know, maybe this project doesn't move forward, maybe Towson stays an empty lot.

730
01:00:54,780 --> 01:00:59,600
I don't think anybody in Towson wants to see an empty lot where it currently is.

731
01:01:00,140 --> 01:01:04,880
I mean, personally, if this was my district, I'd be ecstatic, you know, 2,000 permanent jobs,

732
01:01:05,560 --> 01:01:10,040
you know, 220 million annual business activity, 92 million in employee compensation.

733
01:01:10,620 --> 01:01:14,020
That's good stuff. That's tax revenues. That's, by the way, how we pay for schools.

734
01:01:14,480 --> 01:01:15,940
That's how we pay for government.

735
01:01:16,460 --> 01:01:22,060
And so I would suggest that council members really think about the cost of an action and delay,

736
01:01:22,060 --> 01:01:26,280
or a no vote versus the possible opportunity

737
01:01:26,280 --> 01:01:28,340
of considering this a little more.

738
01:01:29,140 --> 01:01:30,060
Anybody else?

739
01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:30,520
Mr. Chair.

740
01:01:30,840 --> 01:01:31,400
Councilman Catch?

741
01:01:31,600 --> 01:01:31,780
Yes.

742
01:01:32,580 --> 01:01:36,040
Well, one of you described the 2,000 jobs

743
01:01:36,040 --> 01:01:38,780
that will be created.

744
01:01:38,980 --> 01:01:40,780
I believe you said the average salary

745
01:01:40,780 --> 01:01:43,320
will be slightly below 50.

746
01:01:43,960 --> 01:01:45,940
Right, so I'm the one responsible

747
01:01:45,940 --> 01:01:48,280
for that computation, Councilman.

748
01:01:48,420 --> 01:01:50,820
So 2,000 jobs, some of those are on site.

749
01:01:50,820 --> 01:01:57,580
We call those direct jobs, so there is more than 100,000 square feet of office-based plan for this development.

750
01:01:58,320 --> 01:02:04,960
Our model assumes the following, 185 square feet per office worker,

751
01:02:05,620 --> 01:02:09,600
and it's using parameters like that, similar with the commercial space, I mean the retail space.

752
01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:13,940
You know, hotels have fairly standard staffing models,

753
01:02:14,440 --> 01:02:18,540
and so it's based on the square footage, it's based on the hotel rooms

754
01:02:19,180 --> 01:02:21,300
to figure out what the direct jobs are,

755
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:23,540
the number of jobs on site.

756
01:02:23,760 --> 01:02:25,100
That's the first part of the computation.

757
01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:28,480
But on top of that, there is a multiplier effect.

758
01:02:28,600 --> 01:02:31,600
And that's when that implant model I was mentioning earlier comes in.

759
01:02:32,620 --> 01:02:37,480
Because the economic impact of the project doesn't stop with that geography.

760
01:02:38,100 --> 01:02:42,560
So as a simple example, the office workers there might go to a restaurant off-site.

761
01:02:43,780 --> 01:02:45,980
They might go shopping at Towson Town Center.

762
01:02:46,300 --> 01:02:47,740
There could be all kinds of different things.

763
01:02:47,740 --> 01:02:51,680
They might send their kids to a public school in the county.

764
01:02:51,900 --> 01:02:54,620
All of that supports employment off-site.

765
01:02:55,040 --> 01:02:58,740
And what the model does is it tells us what the economic multipliers are.

766
01:02:59,060 --> 01:03:03,180
How much of those additional goods and services demanded by the people on that site

767
01:03:03,180 --> 01:03:06,520
will be supplied by other Baltimore County enterprises.

768
01:03:07,460 --> 01:03:10,560
And that's what we call secondary or indirect or induced effects.

769
01:03:10,900 --> 01:03:12,260
And we model that as well.

770
01:03:12,380 --> 01:03:16,700
And that's where we get to the 2,000 total jobs on a county-wide basis.

771
01:03:16,700 --> 01:03:20,340
Some of the jobs actually supported will be outside of the county.

772
01:03:20,840 --> 01:03:24,580
So if somebody working in an office building in Baltimore County decides for a reason

773
01:03:24,580 --> 01:03:30,280
they want to live in Baltimore City, then that's going to support more economic activity there.

774
01:03:31,280 --> 01:03:33,480
And so that's also computer.

775
01:03:33,600 --> 01:03:36,320
We have a statewide economic impact estimate also in the report.

776
01:03:36,440 --> 01:03:38,720
I haven't focused on that. I've been focusing on Baltimore County.

777
01:03:39,140 --> 01:03:43,140
But then that takes you actually above 2,000 jobs, it turns out, when you add in those multiplier effects.

778
01:03:43,340 --> 01:03:44,340
But that's how we get there.

779
01:03:44,340 --> 01:03:51,260
What the medium income in Baltimore County is about $68,000.

780
01:03:52,140 --> 01:03:56,600
Medium household income, we're talking about per employee compensation, so you can have

781
01:03:56,600 --> 01:03:59,920
more than one employee per household, and typically we do, yeah.

782
01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:00,560
Yeah, I understand.

783
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:09,340
So my question is, when you plug in these figures in your formula, and you came up

784
01:04:09,340 --> 01:04:13,300
with the 2,000 with the average compensation below,

785
01:04:13,860 --> 01:04:15,900
slightly below 50,000.

786
01:04:17,760 --> 01:04:22,480
If there were, if there was a different NICS here,

787
01:04:23,080 --> 01:04:28,340
let's say twice as many offices, half as much student housing,

788
01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:32,060
would the number of jobs then increase

789
01:04:32,060 --> 01:04:38,140
and the income increase or what we, I ask the question.

790
01:04:38,140 --> 01:04:39,480
That's a great question, Councilman.

791
01:04:39,620 --> 01:04:41,160
So if the mix changed, the number of jobs

792
01:04:41,160 --> 01:04:42,880
would change, the average incomes would change.

793
01:04:43,500 --> 01:04:44,900
We can play, you know, one could play with this.

794
01:04:45,060 --> 01:04:47,640
We have modeled the project that has been approved, you know.

795
01:04:48,060 --> 01:04:50,660
But one could develop an endless number of scenarios.

796
01:04:50,880 --> 01:04:54,540
But let's say, for instance, that there

797
01:04:54,540 --> 01:04:57,820
was a smaller retail component

798
01:04:58,340 --> 01:05:00,160
and a larger office component.

799
01:05:00,500 --> 01:05:03,020
Now, typically workers in office buildings

800
01:05:03,020 --> 01:05:05,400
make more than the typical retail worker.

801
01:05:05,400 --> 01:05:07,900
And so with that drive up the average compensation, probably.

802
01:05:09,760 --> 01:05:13,800
Hotel employees on average don't have elevated compensation.

803
01:05:14,380 --> 01:05:17,800
Typical, if you think about hotel maids or other people who are working at hotels,

804
01:05:18,160 --> 01:05:21,580
they're managers of course, but they're also people working at the reception desk.

805
01:05:21,980 --> 01:05:24,400
And that tends to be a low wage segment.

806
01:05:24,540 --> 01:05:27,780
So if you shrunk the hotel footprint and you increase the office footprint,

807
01:05:28,000 --> 01:05:29,220
that would have the same effect.

808
01:05:30,340 --> 01:05:33,840
But in a diverse society like this, you need all kinds of jobs.

809
01:05:33,840 --> 01:05:37,200
jobs, entry-level jobs, middle-income jobs, high-wage jobs.

810
01:05:37,740 --> 01:05:40,640
And this mixed-use development checks all of those boxes.

811
01:05:41,580 --> 01:05:46,960
The goal is not necessarily to provide necessarily one type of job, let's say high-wage.

812
01:05:47,580 --> 01:05:51,100
The goal here is to provide broadly shared opportunity.

813
01:05:51,800 --> 01:05:55,240
And because it's a mixed-use project, this does that.

814
01:05:55,620 --> 01:05:58,540
It doesn't solve all of our issues economically as a region, of course.

815
01:05:58,740 --> 01:06:02,760
It's not that enormous, no project, no single project would be, but I think it moves

816
01:06:02,760 --> 01:06:05,200
the needle in the right direction along every dimension.

817
01:06:05,380 --> 01:06:07,780
Entry level jobs, middle income jobs, highway jobs,

818
01:06:07,920 --> 01:06:09,620
they're all represented in this footprint.

819
01:06:09,940 --> 01:06:14,380
When the county was in negotiations with Greenberg Gibbons,

820
01:06:15,680 --> 01:06:22,440
were different scenarios talked about, for instance,

821
01:06:23,280 --> 01:06:27,960
maybe, I mean, how much input did the county have

822
01:06:27,960 --> 01:06:30,160
as to how much office space,

823
01:06:30,160 --> 01:06:36,320
how much student housing etc was that with the thought of maybe creating more

824
01:06:36,320 --> 01:06:41,720
jobs more higher paying jobs well the development process that's been

825
01:06:41,720 --> 01:06:47,180
completed with the plan that's been completed was the basis of where we

826
01:06:47,180 --> 01:06:51,680
entered in on where the county participates right so the private

827
01:06:51,680 --> 01:06:56,820
developer looked at what will the market bear and we encourage the pieces to

828
01:06:56,820 --> 01:07:02,120
come in that were a true mixed use, right? So I think one of the things that Mr. Basu

829
01:07:02,120 --> 01:07:06,800
didn't point to is the connection with the university. When you think of our university

830
01:07:06,800 --> 01:07:11,440
students starting their careers at, whether it's at Whiting Turner, Stanley Black and

831
01:07:11,440 --> 01:07:14,740
Deckard General Dynamics, or any of the companies that we have, resist social media

832
01:07:14,740 --> 01:07:20,400
on the small scale, we need more of these connective tissues between these institutions,

833
01:07:20,400 --> 01:07:29,120
Right, so seeing a mixed use plan come through that connects and has the attributes the community

834
01:07:29,120 --> 01:07:35,360
is looking for, frankly, on the amenity side, it was a strong development plan to begin

835
01:07:35,360 --> 01:07:35,660
with.

836
01:07:35,840 --> 01:07:42,820
So the county started looking at how can we help bring it to bear and move from a current

837
01:07:42,820 --> 01:07:45,600
gravel lot to bring that to existence.

838
01:07:46,400 --> 01:07:46,880
Thank you.

839
01:07:47,100 --> 01:07:47,300
Sure.

840
01:07:48,040 --> 01:07:48,400
Great.

841
01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:50,780
Any other questions or comments from the council?

842
01:07:50,920 --> 01:07:53,320
We did have a lot of public speakers here today.

843
01:07:53,640 --> 01:07:55,640
Any other questions or comments?

844
01:07:56,580 --> 01:07:59,020
I mean, I'll just say before we start with public speakers,

845
01:07:59,140 --> 01:08:01,580
again, I'll just reiterate, you know,

846
01:08:01,660 --> 01:08:04,500
county looking at investing 3.3 million,

847
01:08:04,980 --> 01:08:09,460
basically for five years, to attract 350 million,

848
01:08:10,140 --> 01:08:11,980
you know, 2,000 permanent jobs,

849
01:08:12,560 --> 01:08:15,100
220 million in annual business activity,

850
01:08:15,920 --> 01:08:20,480
92 million in employee compensation, it seems like a pretty good trade-off.

851
01:08:21,060 --> 01:08:24,720
And so I did want to recognize and appreciate both of you for coming today.

852
01:08:24,980 --> 01:08:29,440
And, you know, Mr. Basu, your study, I think, was quite a great study.

853
01:08:29,680 --> 01:08:32,120
And, well, I appreciate all the work you're doing, the administration's doing.

854
01:08:32,780 --> 01:08:37,540
I mean, I think, again, for Towson Residence, not my district, but if I'm a Towson resident,

855
01:08:37,680 --> 01:08:41,320
I don't want to be sitting here three or five years from now with an empty lot.

856
01:08:41,320 --> 01:08:45,620
You know, I want to see something go when we finally have a developer that, by the way,

857
01:08:45,640 --> 01:08:50,980
is incredibly well respected everywhere, does amazing project, willing to take this risk

858
01:08:50,980 --> 01:08:52,440
and willing to move Towson forward.

859
01:08:53,100 --> 01:08:58,300
And so I just would hope that all the residents and citizens really think about this because

860
01:08:58,300 --> 01:09:00,420
this could be a really great opportunity.

861
01:09:01,080 --> 01:09:04,280
Okay, so with that, we're going to start with our public speakers.

862
01:09:04,560 --> 01:09:05,220
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

863
01:09:05,560 --> 01:09:06,980
Thank you both for coming in.

864
01:09:07,960 --> 01:09:09,780
And we'll start with our public speakers.

865
01:09:09,780 --> 01:09:14,760
We've got quite a few speakers today.

866
01:09:15,440 --> 01:09:17,400
Each speaker will have up to three minutes.

867
01:09:17,600 --> 01:09:21,440
There'll be a clock, and once the clock stops,

868
01:09:22,000 --> 01:09:24,320
I'd ask you to kindly conclude your remarks.

869
01:09:25,300 --> 01:09:31,180
And so our first speaker today is Mr. Brian Gibbons.

870
01:09:47,830 --> 01:09:48,850
Good afternoon, Mr. Gibbons.

871
01:09:50,030 --> 01:09:51,090
Good afternoon, everybody.

872
01:09:52,690 --> 01:09:54,270
Thank you for allowing me to speak today.

873
01:09:54,270 --> 01:10:00,270
My name is Brian Gibbons, I'm the Chairman and Chief Executive Officer for Greenburg Gibbons.

874
01:10:01,150 --> 01:10:06,350
Greenburg Gibbons is based in Owings Mills and is a regional mixed-use developer.

875
01:10:07,790 --> 01:10:16,610
We have built our reputation on doing transformational projects in the communities in which we live.

876
01:10:17,230 --> 01:10:22,110
I have 45 local employees that work for us in Owings Mills,

877
01:10:22,930 --> 01:10:26,330
and we are very proud of what we've been able to accomplish in our communities.

878
01:10:27,670 --> 01:10:34,370
Some of our projects included theapolis Town Center Parole, which was a dead ball that we turned into a 2.3 million

879
01:10:35,330 --> 01:10:41,070
mixed use project that has components with retail, residential, office.

880
01:10:42,170 --> 01:10:50,250
We also did Town Center at Laurel, which was a dead ball that we turned into a 400,000 square foot retail center

881
01:10:50,250 --> 01:10:52,770
and a 400 unit apartment complex.

882
01:10:53,630 --> 01:10:56,050
We did a village at Watt Chapel in Crofton,

883
01:10:56,710 --> 01:10:58,070
Watt Chapel Town Center.

884
01:10:58,730 --> 01:11:01,170
Those projects are combined 2.5 million square feet

885
01:11:01,170 --> 01:11:01,770
of mixed use.

886
01:11:03,450 --> 01:11:06,210
In Baltimore, we have five projects.

887
01:11:07,650 --> 01:11:09,270
We have two, what I would consider

888
01:11:09,270 --> 01:11:10,730
to be transformational projects.

889
01:11:12,010 --> 01:11:14,170
The first one in Mr. Conscious District

890
01:11:14,170 --> 01:11:15,570
is the Hunt Valley Town Center.

891
01:11:16,950 --> 01:11:18,870
As everybody can remember, at one point,

892
01:11:18,870 --> 01:11:27,950
that was called, it was on deadmalls.com and it was called Death Valley. We

893
01:11:27,950 --> 01:11:31,910
invested, when we purchased that property we paid $26 million for the

894
01:11:31,910 --> 01:11:36,210
property. The current assessment for that property is $192 million.

895
01:11:38,600 --> 01:11:39,820
Our Foundry

896
01:11:39,820 --> 01:11:45,940
Road project was a dead manufacturing plant and always mills. It was assessed

897
01:11:45,940 --> 01:11:52,000
for $15 million when we bought it. When we're completed, the total assessment will be $188

898
01:11:52,000 --> 01:11:52,240
million.

899
01:11:55,080 --> 01:12:01,220
So the current taxes that we pay in Baltimore Cady are about $5 million across

900
01:12:01,220 --> 01:12:07,900
the board for the properties that we have created and they were about $200,000 when

901
01:12:07,900 --> 01:12:14,140
we bought these projects. We were able to do these tremendous redevelopments without

902
01:12:14,140 --> 01:12:21,520
any type of county assistance. We know what we're doing. Hunt Valley Town Center is 1.2 million square

903
01:12:21,520 --> 01:12:32,460
feet on a hundred acres. Foundry Row is about 500,000 square feet on 50 acres. We're talking about

904
01:12:32,460 --> 01:12:41,000
a $1.2 million project on five, I'm sorry, a 1.2 million square foot project on five acres. There

905
01:12:41,000 --> 01:12:45,760
There are extraordinary infrastructure costs associated with that, including structured

906
01:12:45,760 --> 01:12:49,520
parking as well as all the other infrastructure that we're going to advance.

907
01:12:51,000 --> 01:12:58,840
We afford to join Fenscher with California State Tissue Retirement System, who is our

908
01:12:58,840 --> 01:13:04,860
partner at Hunt Valley, our partner at Watchable Town Center, our partner at St. Thomas

909
01:13:04,860 --> 01:13:09,180
shopping center, our partner in Rice's Town Shopping Center, which we're getting ready

910
01:13:09,180 --> 01:13:15,540
to redevelop. We already have a $300 million worth of investment in Baltimore County.

911
01:13:19,830 --> 01:13:20,090
They

912
01:13:20,090 --> 01:13:25,510
have approved the project with one condition is that we get this final, these development

913
01:13:25,510 --> 01:13:31,930
agreements done with this county. There are moments in time when these projects can happen.

914
01:13:32,930 --> 01:13:36,650
All the things have to come together. I worked on this for two years with a

915
01:13:36,650 --> 01:13:41,310
prior development, undoing what was done and putting it all back together.

916
01:13:42,430 --> 01:13:44,730
We're now at a point in time where we could make this happen.

917
01:13:45,810 --> 01:13:48,730
I did want to point out in the process I've talked about in Baltimore County,

918
01:13:49,470 --> 01:13:51,450
we had no government assistant whatsoever.

919
01:13:52,290 --> 01:13:53,970
I think I said that already, but I'm going to repeat that.

920
01:13:54,190 --> 01:13:54,370
None.

921
01:13:55,390 --> 01:13:59,930
And I would be here today if I can make this happen without this.

922
01:14:01,410 --> 01:14:04,590
I don't enjoy being here today to ask for this.

923
01:14:04,590 --> 01:14:10,990
but I'm here because I think this is a transformational project that is going to change the landscape

924
01:14:10,990 --> 01:14:16,450
of Towson that is going to give that part of Towson a heartbeat that doesn't exist today.

925
01:14:17,270 --> 01:14:20,510
If you walk over there now, it's sad.

926
01:14:21,650 --> 01:14:22,390
It really is.

927
01:14:22,850 --> 01:14:26,550
A lot of the office buildings have emptied out and there's a reason for it.

928
01:14:27,110 --> 01:14:32,310
When you create a amenity like this, you lift the entire, as I think Councilman

929
01:14:32,310 --> 01:14:39,450
normal nose, a rising tide lifts all ships. This will create the rising tide for Towson

930
01:14:40,150 --> 01:14:47,210
and will be the linchpin that kind of connects the university to Towson. So I'd love to

931
01:14:47,210 --> 01:14:53,950
answer any questions that you have. I'm here because I'm very passionate about the community

932
01:14:53,950 --> 01:14:59,570
in which we live, and you know that you're going to see me all the time.

933
01:15:00,020 --> 01:15:04,660
I'm not some out-of-state developer. You're going to see me every day, so I've got to do this right,

934
01:15:05,460 --> 01:15:07,480
because I'll hear about it if I don't do it right.

935
01:15:08,400 --> 01:15:12,440
And in terms of, you know, Todd had created an invention in the bankruptcy.

936
01:15:12,740 --> 01:15:15,620
We've been in business. Next year will be our 50th year in business.

937
01:15:17,200 --> 01:15:22,220
CalSTRS is a $200 billion pension fund. We're not going into bankruptcy.

938
01:15:23,760 --> 01:15:28,420
We have the economic power to do this, and this is really the moment in time to get it done.

939
01:15:28,420 --> 01:15:35,180
Thank you. Thank you and I see several council members hands. Why don't we start with Councilman

940
01:15:35,180 --> 01:15:37,880
Marks then Councilman Jones and Councilman Katch.

941
01:15:39,960 --> 01:15:42,420
Thank you very much. Mr. Gibbons as

942
01:15:42,420 --> 01:15:47,880
I've said numerous times you have an exceptional record and I think all of us on the council

943
01:15:47,880 --> 01:15:54,580
respect the work you've done. I just have one question. What percentage of the overall

944
01:15:54,580 --> 01:15:56,960
development team, does your firm represent?

945
01:15:58,440 --> 01:16:03,500
We are the contract purchaser for Towson Row.

946
01:16:04,320 --> 01:16:10,260
When we close in, the last condition for closing is this agreement, when we close into the project,

947
01:16:10,520 --> 01:16:15,340
we will be with 95, the entity that will own it is GG Cal, which is my joint venture

948
01:16:15,340 --> 01:16:18,020
or my development company with CalSTRS.

949
01:16:18,840 --> 01:16:24,680
We will own 95% of the entire project with the exception of the office component.

950
01:16:26,320 --> 01:16:30,800
So you will be the public face of this project. You will be the ones dealing with the community.

951
01:16:31,380 --> 01:16:32,800
You'll be the ones dealing with the council.

952
01:16:33,700 --> 01:16:34,100
That's correct.

953
01:16:34,560 --> 01:16:36,040
Okay, thank you.

954
01:16:37,400 --> 01:16:37,980
Councilman Jones.

955
01:16:40,780 --> 01:16:41,940
How are you today, Mr. Gibbs?

956
01:16:42,240 --> 01:16:43,380
Well, thank you, Mr. Jones.

957
01:16:43,860 --> 01:16:44,560
Good, good, good.

958
01:16:44,560 --> 01:16:53,980
I, just for everybody, because Mr. Gibbons' headquarters is in Owens Mills, I know him.

959
01:16:54,340 --> 01:17:02,540
I know the work he's done at Foundry Row and being a fire chief in Anne Arundel County for

960
01:17:03,560 --> 01:17:10,760
33 years, or 32 years, I lose track after you get over 30, I retire, but I know the

961
01:17:10,760 --> 01:17:20,100
work that's been done at what used to be parole plaza, which is now, what is it called?

962
01:17:20,860 --> 01:17:21,760
Anapolis Town Center.

963
01:17:21,840 --> 01:17:29,260
Anapolis Town Center, and I know it's taking place over there on Route 3 in Whitechapel.

964
01:17:29,320 --> 01:17:30,360
Whitechapel Town Center.

965
01:17:31,020 --> 01:17:37,840
So, first of all, let me just say, in all my dealings with you, which has been

966
01:17:37,840 --> 01:17:44,840
for quite some years. You've been nothing but an honest, decent person who's a straight shooter

967
01:17:44,840 --> 01:17:50,100
who's never sugar-coated anything that's always told me like it was, and I have never known

968
01:17:50,100 --> 01:17:57,300
you to say or add any nuances or anything that would somehow mislead me or anyone around

969
01:17:57,300 --> 01:18:03,800
you. So I appreciate you and all that you do. And let me guess say, with my knowledge

970
01:18:03,800 --> 01:18:10,880
of the developments in Anne Arundel County as well as what you have done at Foundry Row.

971
01:18:12,060 --> 01:18:19,360
You have described these things as revitalizing those projects, but let me just say that

972
01:18:19,360 --> 01:18:26,800
I know for a fact that these projects not only are you revitalizing the projects, but

973
01:18:26,800 --> 01:18:31,000
you have revitalized the communities that surround those projects.

974
01:18:31,000 --> 01:18:41,760
It adds a spark. It adds a sense of excitement that people that I talk to all the time are excited about.

975
01:18:42,160 --> 01:18:51,940
They're excited about these projects. And that can only help increase the property values of every property around those projects.

976
01:18:52,320 --> 01:18:57,240
I know what happened. Like I said, I've been there. I saw parole plaza. I saw what it was.

977
01:18:57,240 --> 01:19:03,720
That's why it's hard for me to get away from the name of Napa's Townsend and now and I saw what happened on route 40

978
01:19:03,720 --> 01:19:11,120
I mean a route 3 so and of course found a reroll so you know, I guess want to thank you so much for

979
01:19:11,680 --> 01:19:12,640
taking a

980
01:19:14,300 --> 01:19:22,560
Row into this project and coming on board because I think it it brings the type of excitement and the type of

981
01:19:22,560 --> 01:19:27,880
for professionalism and expertise that this project needs,

982
01:19:28,160 --> 01:19:29,800
and I'm, I guess, thankful.

983
01:19:30,020 --> 01:19:32,480
So I notice not much of a question is more of a praise,

984
01:19:32,880 --> 01:19:34,120
but I thank you very much.

985
01:19:34,380 --> 01:19:36,580
How did you come to become so well at this stuff?

986
01:19:36,700 --> 01:19:39,380
How do you, what make, there's a question for you.

987
01:19:40,240 --> 01:19:40,640
Passion.

988
01:19:41,100 --> 01:19:42,980
Passion, there you go, thank you.

989
01:19:43,740 --> 01:19:44,360
Councilman Katch?

990
01:19:44,720 --> 01:19:45,200
Yeah, thank you.

991
01:19:45,240 --> 01:19:48,260
If I may, there was one thing I did want to point out

992
01:19:48,260 --> 01:19:53,800
in the presentation that was made on the economic analysis, if that's okay.

993
01:19:54,940 --> 01:20:00,340
When the tax credit analysis where we discounted that to the present value,

994
01:20:01,560 --> 01:20:07,620
that it says that we'd be entitled to $35 million or we wouldn't have to pay $35 million in taxes over 15 years.

995
01:20:08,880 --> 01:20:15,880
That was, that analysis was done assuming the assessment was two-thirds of our cost.

996
01:20:17,940 --> 01:20:26,920
Okay, so if these properties get assessed at cost, instead of being $35 million in tax revenue, it would be $50 million in tax revenue.

997
01:20:27,980 --> 01:20:32,500
We did that because Mr. Homan wanted to be extremely conservative.

998
01:20:32,940 --> 01:20:38,600
And I want to be conservative, but I do want to point out that if these simply get...

999
01:20:38,600 --> 01:20:42,200
I'm not talking about developer profit or anything like that if we could possibly make some.

1000
01:20:42,200 --> 01:20:50,500
I'm talking about out-of-pocket cost the difference in the available tax credits under the revitalization district and

1001
01:20:50,500 --> 01:20:52,260
green building initiatives

1002
01:20:52,260 --> 01:20:54,560
Would be 50 million dollars

1003
01:20:55,360 --> 01:20:56,380
under the current law

1004
01:20:59,120 --> 01:21:04,960
Councilman, thank you very much. Mr. Chairman. I'd asked a question before about

1005
01:21:05,800 --> 01:21:09,640
How much money the prior developer had

1006
01:21:10,760 --> 01:21:13,420
spent on this project and

1007
01:21:14,280 --> 01:21:23,620
whether the 350 million is all new money or does that include the purchase from the previous?

1008
01:21:24,400 --> 01:21:26,880
Obviously, I don't know what you did, but...

1009
01:21:26,880 --> 01:21:31,180
Yeah, we are buying a 95% interest in the...it's a complicated structure,

1010
01:21:31,400 --> 01:21:35,060
but we're buying...we'll be the 95% general partner of the project.

1011
01:21:35,860 --> 01:21:40,900
The previous developer had land acquisition costs, design costs, entitlement costs.

1012
01:21:40,900 --> 01:21:47,940
We are we are buying into it based on the cost less approximately

1013
01:21:49,200 --> 01:21:54,420
9.8 million dollars that we did not approve as cost wouldn't to buy into the project

1014
01:21:55,440 --> 01:21:56,700
Okay, so

1015
01:21:57,220 --> 01:21:57,780
the

1016
01:21:57,780 --> 01:21:59,580
350 million

1017
01:22:00,660 --> 01:22:01,700
Includes the

1018
01:22:02,220 --> 01:22:06,260
16 point whatever it is five from the county. Yes

1019
01:22:07,020 --> 01:22:11,340
because the way it works councilman is that we will put the money out and those

1020
01:22:11,340 --> 01:22:16,400
will be reimbursement so we will put out 350 million dollars including 50

1021
01:22:16,400 --> 01:22:21,320
million dollars of equity with the acquisition and the development of the

1022
01:22:21,320 --> 01:22:27,800
infrastructure as we prepare the site for vertical construction and I'm so

1023
01:22:27,800 --> 01:22:33,540
Kay's Valley is going to still have the office building they will have they

1024
01:22:33,540 --> 01:22:40,300
they will be the developer for the office building and then you will be 95% of the remainder of the

1025
01:22:40,300 --> 01:22:46,480
correct project and you will agree that hunt valley is nicer than foundry road

1026
01:22:47,620 --> 01:22:53,120
we can take that out the hallway you don't you don't you don't play favorites with your children

1027
01:22:54,240 --> 01:23:00,320
that's good okay councilwoman allman it was great mr. Gibbons thanks for being here today i know

1028
01:23:00,320 --> 01:23:05,240
it's not your favorite thing to do. I just wanted to say that this is not an

1029
01:23:05,240 --> 01:23:14,500
either or. This is not we're going to redevelop Towson Rowe in and not do

1030
01:23:14,500 --> 01:23:20,740
something else. Right now this is a public-private partnership. Our schools

1031
01:23:20,740 --> 01:23:25,980
are not that right now. Maybe they will be someday but they're not. Greenberg

1032
01:23:25,980 --> 01:23:31,540
givens is investing an incredible amount of money into Towson as they have in

1033
01:23:31,540 --> 01:23:39,160
other parts of the county. In Owings Mills and Rysers Town, their investment has

1034
01:23:39,160 --> 01:23:44,020
changed those communities, has moved them forward in a way that we never thought

1035
01:23:44,020 --> 01:23:48,340
it would, but it has moved them forward. It even brought Krispy Kreme back.

1036
01:23:48,340 --> 01:23:53,720
Yeah, that's part of that's that's part of the rising that's part of the rising time

1037
01:23:55,020 --> 01:23:57,160
I just want to say that

1038
01:23:57,740 --> 01:24:02,720
For me, you have always been your company has been incredible to deal with

1039
01:24:03,560 --> 01:24:08,560
You did everything I asked you to do when we were talking about foundry road, which was a lot

1040
01:24:11,360 --> 01:24:16,360
And I I want you to know that if anyone can do this

1041
01:24:16,360 --> 01:24:22,780
Thank you. Thank you, Councilman. Any other questions or comments for Mr. Gibbons? Councilman

1042
01:24:22,780 --> 01:24:29,080
Crandall? Sure. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. One comment, Mr. Gibbons, my office will be sending

1043
01:24:29,080 --> 01:24:35,280
you four different maps of the commercial revitalization districts in the Seventh District.

1044
01:24:37,620 --> 01:24:38,900
So the county

1045
01:24:38,900 --> 01:24:42,120
order had a question and if you're not prepared for the question or the administration

1046
01:24:42,120 --> 01:24:50,520
I can possibly see why, and just maybe we can look at this over the next week or so.

1047
01:24:51,040 --> 01:24:58,200
Have you looked at the PACE financing tool, which is where you would,

1048
01:24:58,400 --> 01:25:02,720
I'll just read it from the county auditor, it's a financing tool available to commercial developers

1049
01:25:02,720 --> 01:25:06,300
that allows the cost of energy-efficient improvements to be financed

1050
01:25:06,300 --> 01:25:09,440
via long-term loan surcharge on the real property tax bill.

1051
01:25:09,440 --> 01:25:16,140
And just recently the county made this program available for new construction,

1052
01:25:16,380 --> 01:25:21,840
whereas previously it was only offered to building improvements for existing structures.

1053
01:25:22,260 --> 01:25:28,200
So, you know, have you all looked at this as a potential mechanism?

1054
01:25:28,640 --> 01:25:35,880
And if so, would that perhaps offset the fiscal impact to the county on this deal?

1055
01:25:35,880 --> 01:25:41,780
And then of course, you know, how would it affect the assessed value of the property moving forward?

1056
01:25:41,920 --> 01:25:47,760
Well, part of what we're doing is we are going to be building this under green technology.

1057
01:25:48,080 --> 01:25:52,280
So we're already, you know, we'll have LEED certified buildings across the board.

1058
01:25:52,900 --> 01:25:56,920
So and if we don't do that, our tax credits get significantly reduced.

1059
01:25:57,420 --> 01:26:02,480
So that's a big part of this is that we're having to follow the green technology, which we intend to do.

1060
01:26:02,480 --> 01:26:07,480
I'm not particularly, I'm not in particular familiar with the PACE program that you're talking about, Councilman.

1061
01:26:08,080 --> 01:26:09,940
But it's certainly something that we would look into.

1062
01:26:10,700 --> 01:26:18,120
But I believe that's already part of the LEED certification or the green building initiatives that we're going to be following anyhow.

1063
01:26:18,480 --> 01:26:20,460
It's all about energy efficiency and so on.

1064
01:26:22,890 --> 01:26:23,770
Okay. Thank you.

1065
01:26:24,070 --> 01:26:26,230
Any other questions or comments from Mr. Gibbons?

1066
01:26:27,410 --> 01:26:32,010
Mr. Gibbons, I really appreciate you coming in and I look forward to grabbing coffee with you sometime

1067
01:26:32,010 --> 01:26:36,590
and talking about Whole Foods or Wegmans in Southwest Baltimore County so thank

1068
01:26:36,590 --> 01:26:42,570
you for coming in thank you council thank you all righty our next speaker is Mr.

1069
01:26:42,650 --> 01:26:49,410
Eric Walter can I guess add one thing why Mr. Walker make his way I would like to

1070
01:26:49,410 --> 01:26:55,190
see a day when perhaps I know some of the things that Mr. Gibbons has done in

1071
01:26:55,190 --> 01:26:59,270
Anne Arundel County I'd like to see a day when perhaps we can partner with

1072
01:26:59,270 --> 01:27:04,650
him to build a school because it is my understanding he's able to build schools a lot cheaper than

1073
01:27:04,650 --> 01:27:05,610
our current process.

1074
01:27:07,960 --> 01:27:09,040
Good point, Councilman.

1075
01:27:09,520 --> 01:27:11,600
Mr. Erick Walter, do you want to come up?

1076
01:27:18,500 --> 01:27:19,760
Number crunching questions?

1077
01:27:25,440 --> 01:27:26,440
All righty.

1078
01:27:27,480 --> 01:27:30,060
Mr. Walter waves his time, yields his time.

1079
01:27:30,760 --> 01:27:32,920
So our next speaker is Mrs. Dana Bergman.

1080
01:28:02,340 --> 01:28:02,920
Hi, everybody.

1081
01:28:03,520 --> 01:28:04,820
Thank you for this opportunity.

1082
01:28:04,820 --> 01:28:07,600
Hi Mr. Chairman and our council members.

1083
01:28:08,320 --> 01:28:10,320
So my name is Diana Bergman.

1084
01:28:10,580 --> 01:28:13,860
I am one of the lead advocates for laying us down.

1085
01:28:14,060 --> 01:28:16,240
We've been pushing for three years for a new school.

1086
01:28:16,920 --> 01:28:19,920
And this Towson Rowe project grabbed my attention.

1087
01:28:21,140 --> 01:28:26,480
I've worked with our councilman for our first district and we've had several discussions

1088
01:28:26,480 --> 01:28:33,580
regarding how we have to protect Baltimore County and their triple bond rating.

1089
01:28:33,580 --> 01:28:38,300
So I do understand that schools get funded very different from developer projects.

1090
01:28:39,940 --> 01:28:43,840
But I don't want to talk numbers. I want to talk some common sense.

1091
01:28:44,740 --> 01:28:49,020
We have developers that are talking about being competitive in Baltimore County.

1092
01:28:49,780 --> 01:28:55,700
And if they want to be competitive, then shouldn't they compete just like other surrounding counties

1093
01:28:55,700 --> 01:29:01,480
where they have impact developer feeds that help support the public services

1094
01:29:01,480 --> 01:29:04,040
that you're providing your community.

1095
01:29:05,080 --> 01:29:08,700
Baltimore County has the second largest aging infrastructure

1096
01:29:08,700 --> 01:29:10,540
in the state of Maryland.

1097
01:29:11,320 --> 01:29:14,220
We don't get extra money like Baltimore City does.

1098
01:29:15,160 --> 01:29:18,040
And yes, I'm very proud of Anahoma County

1099
01:29:18,040 --> 01:29:21,700
because they figured out a way just like Frederick County

1100
01:29:21,700 --> 01:29:24,240
to take care of their aging infrastructure

1101
01:29:24,240 --> 01:29:27,060
in a more affordable, feasible way.

1102
01:29:28,080 --> 01:29:30,680
So I do a lot more than just read the paper.

1103
01:29:30,680 --> 01:29:34,340
I'm actually an active duty military spouse.

1104
01:29:34,800 --> 01:29:37,180
I've traveled in different areas.

1105
01:29:37,360 --> 01:29:44,480
I've seen developers create and make communities have a new life.

1106
01:29:45,520 --> 01:29:51,000
Miami-Dade County took certain areas and turned them around with shopping centers

1107
01:29:51,000 --> 01:29:53,620
and business projects that are absolutely amazing.

1108
01:29:54,160 --> 01:29:57,460
But I live in Baltimore Highlands in the Lansdowne community.

1109
01:29:58,100 --> 01:29:59,880
And if my family comes to visit,

1110
01:30:00,560 --> 01:30:10,220
And we're very close to BWI. We're very close to that Cammin Yards baseball stadium for the Orioles fan.

1111
01:30:11,260 --> 01:30:17,800
And we chose to live in Baltimore County because it was close to the airport. It was close to the city.

1112
01:30:18,300 --> 01:30:22,700
But one family comes to visit. I don't have a hotel in my community.

1113
01:30:24,480 --> 01:30:27,460
There's one in Anarondo. There's one in Baltimore City.

1114
01:30:28,420 --> 01:30:32,960
But in our little pocket of Southwest, I don't have a project like this.

1115
01:30:33,660 --> 01:30:38,420
And yes, it could change and make a big difference like it did for Owens-Melt.

1116
01:30:39,440 --> 01:30:43,060
Now, I have my youngest that's a second grader.

1117
01:30:43,640 --> 01:30:49,160
I don't know exactly when this project will be completed, so when it could return back to the community.

1118
01:30:50,180 --> 01:30:53,220
But even if it's eight years from now, he'll be in 10th grade.

1119
01:30:53,220 --> 01:31:11,020
And if it's further along, like I was projected, he'll be a college student, and he didn't benefit a single time of our taxpayers' money to go back into our school and our education.

1120
01:31:11,860 --> 01:31:14,140
So thank you if you have any questions.

1121
01:31:14,920 --> 01:31:15,640
Thank you.

1122
01:31:15,640 --> 01:31:16,460
Thank you, Ms. Bergman.

1123
01:31:17,460 --> 01:31:19,880
Our next speaker is Russ Parobly.

1124
01:31:32,040 --> 01:31:34,560
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Councilman, and Mr. Holman.

1125
01:31:35,440 --> 01:31:39,100
I think the long story, real short, what I've heard here today and what I've read in the newspaper.

1126
01:31:39,980 --> 01:31:43,960
This is, I have no problem with you giving tax credits, I have no problem giving permits.

1127
01:31:44,120 --> 01:31:47,580
The biggest thing when business people come in is can we get the proper permits,

1128
01:31:47,680 --> 01:31:49,980
which I think Mr. Holman has explained is not a problem.

1129
01:31:50,700 --> 01:31:57,880
I have a major problem with giving, somebody has $350 million of money to build these things

1130
01:31:57,880 --> 01:32:01,060
and they want $16 million from the taxpayers of Baltimore County.

1131
01:32:01,060 --> 01:32:05,840
As everybody said, you can be hearing schools, air conditionings, there's been a conflict

1132
01:32:05,840 --> 01:32:11,280
between the governor and the county executive, even Mr. Basu, who's a great speaker, I think

1133
01:32:11,280 --> 01:32:13,640
if he loses his job, he'll be an excellent car salesman.

1134
01:32:14,460 --> 01:32:17,620
I think though the red flag is what he said to me are no guarantees.

1135
01:32:18,300 --> 01:32:19,300
And I agree with him.

1136
01:32:19,680 --> 01:32:26,080
And it doesn't take a very smart business person to say that if Marriott Hotel has

1137
01:32:26,080 --> 01:32:32,600
90% capacity filled all the time and they're closing down you would not you

1138
01:32:32,600 --> 01:32:35,380
would be somewhat of an idiot to say let's get some money go and build another

1139
01:32:35,380 --> 01:32:40,640
hotel they don't they don't need our tax dollars gentlemen and ladies they

1140
01:32:40,640 --> 01:32:44,800
don't need it and that's me as a taxpayer sales that's me as a taxpayer

1141
01:32:45,560 --> 01:32:50,300
and I just don't think you should put anything in it now you're all going to

1142
01:32:50,300 --> 01:32:54,180
vote on a pig and a poke and I look at this way if you're going to vote on

1143
01:32:54,180 --> 01:32:56,900
this. I think you should use one of these because

1144
01:33:00,220 --> 01:33:01,260
I think this is what we're

1145
01:33:01,260 --> 01:33:05,420
going to be getting into. We're blindsiding in here. He needs 16 million

1146
01:33:05,420 --> 01:33:09,780
dollars of taxpayers. Where's the other 350 million dollars coming from? You

1147
01:33:09,780 --> 01:33:13,920
mean somebody else can't ante up? That's how I feel about it. I also want to

1148
01:33:13,920 --> 01:33:18,680
say with my one event left as I give credit and courage to the all the

1149
01:33:18,680 --> 01:33:23,380
council people who have asked some tough questions and I think as

1150
01:33:24,100 --> 01:33:28,980
councilman Crandell said I'm also like to know why it's not a risk where's the

1151
01:33:28,980 --> 01:33:33,540
risk problem and I think also we should not be given grants if you vote for this

1152
01:33:33,540 --> 01:33:40,140
it should be a loan like that we can if somebody does not pay up I think we're

1153
01:33:40,140 --> 01:33:44,740
able to take legal action towards it so have no problem there are tax grants

1154
01:33:44,740 --> 01:33:49,400
but once again the money issue is what I have as a taxpayer and also

1155
01:33:49,400 --> 01:33:53,180
represent the Rose Hill Community Association and I'm a Baltimore County

1156
01:33:53,180 --> 01:33:56,980
taxpayer. So thank you for your time and my other half minute will go to somebody

1157
01:33:56,980 --> 01:34:02,520
else. Thank you. Our next speaker Scott Pappas. Good to see you Russ. Our next

1158
01:34:02,520 --> 01:34:05,240
speaker Scott Pappas followed by Kathy Labuda.

1159
01:34:20,760 --> 01:34:22,040
Come on over here. Come on right

1160
01:34:22,040 --> 01:34:22,340
up here.

1161
01:34:46,680 --> 01:34:52,680
Good afternoon. Good afternoon. Dear Baltimore County Council my name is

1162
01:34:52,680 --> 01:34:56,920
Scott Pappas representing the leaders helping leaders 7th district

1163
01:34:56,920 --> 01:35:03,840
the Council of Baltimore County, a 501c3 nonprofit corporation, whose board of directors is comprised

1164
01:35:03,840 --> 01:35:07,960
of community leaders from the community organizations of Old Dundalk, New Dundalk,

1165
01:35:08,120 --> 01:35:13,520
Rosedale, Essex, Middlesex, Sparice Point, and Fort Howard to adjust three points.

1166
01:35:14,120 --> 01:35:19,140
First, please note that you're in receipt of a Baltimore County organization chart

1167
01:35:19,140 --> 01:35:24,450
delineating at the Baltimore County Council, the Baltimore County Executive, and the

1168
01:35:24,450 --> 01:35:29,670
Baltimore County apparatus is under and subordinate to the citizens of the

1169
01:35:29,670 --> 01:35:33,870
Baltimore County Council. Secondly, leaders helping leaders seven districts of a

1170
01:35:33,870 --> 01:35:38,990
council of Baltimore County categorically opposed as financing and the

1171
01:35:38,990 --> 01:35:42,390
associated risk to financing private business adventures with Baltimore

1172
01:35:42,390 --> 01:35:47,990
County taxpayer property tax sales tax fees or any other public debt in the

1173
01:35:47,990 --> 01:35:52,490
form of municipal bondage. Leaders helping leaders seven districts of a

1174
01:35:52,490 --> 01:35:56,230
Council Baltimore County believes that the taxpayers of Baltimore County must directly

1175
01:35:56,230 --> 01:36:01,650
benefit from their tax contributions addressing infrastructure, education, safety and other

1176
01:36:01,650 --> 01:36:05,230
traditional uses of Baltimore County taxpayer money.

1177
01:36:05,970 --> 01:36:10,690
And again, not as a scheme distributing the financial risk to the individual Baltimore

1178
01:36:10,690 --> 01:36:15,910
County taxpayers and their children for the special interest and profit of a billionaire

1179
01:36:15,910 --> 01:36:16,730
oligarchy.

1180
01:36:16,730 --> 01:36:23,770
Last, it would be reported, okay, the Baltimore County Council passed legislation earlier this

1181
01:36:23,770 --> 01:36:29,570
year protecting 30 trees in Towson which were destroyed and removed by the County, the Baltimore

1182
01:36:29,570 --> 01:36:30,410
County Administration.

1183
01:36:31,510 --> 01:36:36,510
What has or what will the Baltimore County Council do to investigate who are responsible

1184
01:36:36,510 --> 01:36:41,550
for this most egregious affront to the Baltimore County Council, the citizens of

1185
01:36:41,550 --> 01:36:44,230
Baltimore County and the very core of our democratic system?

1186
01:36:44,230 --> 01:36:49,910
How will these responsible compensate the citizens of Baltimore County for our loss from their actions?

1187
01:36:50,550 --> 01:36:57,330
And what legislation is the Baltimore County Council introducing to ensure such a breach of public trust?

1188
01:36:57,490 --> 01:36:58,990
Okay, it will not happen again.

1189
01:36:59,650 --> 01:37:08,710
I would like to additionally add, okay, that the studious and esteemed economist who testified today

1190
01:37:08,710 --> 01:37:12,710
made a rather conspicuous, okay, forgetfulness

1191
01:37:12,710 --> 01:37:15,090
in not including the trade point Atlantic,

1192
01:37:15,290 --> 01:37:16,830
the development in the Seventh District,

1193
01:37:17,150 --> 01:37:20,470
is also competing for jobs also, okay?

1194
01:37:21,270 --> 01:37:22,930
Again, like Mr. Rubinor Obli,

1195
01:37:22,990 --> 01:37:24,330
I believe is how he pronounces his name,

1196
01:37:24,470 --> 01:37:27,230
did bring up the fact that the one guarantee

1197
01:37:27,230 --> 01:37:30,170
that the economists did say, okay,

1198
01:37:30,370 --> 01:37:32,250
the one exceptional guarantee, okay,

1199
01:37:32,330 --> 01:37:33,630
he said, there's no guarantees.

1200
01:37:34,070 --> 01:37:36,230
Well, let me correct him and say that there is one

1201
01:37:36,230 --> 01:37:37,930
guarantee and that is the fact

1202
01:37:37,930 --> 01:37:42,150
that the Baltimore County taxpayers will be on the hook, okay, for any public financing

1203
01:37:42,150 --> 01:37:49,750
on this, and I concur, okay, with the esteem, okay, councilman, okay, Mr. Marks, and the

1204
01:37:49,750 --> 01:37:55,050
fact that we did have another document dumped here and that there is not enough time for

1205
01:37:55,050 --> 01:38:01,830
us to logically and if we want to say here thoroughly examine, okay, the prospects

1206
01:38:01,830 --> 01:38:06,510
within the weeks that, two weeks I think we're going to have, in light of the fact

1207
01:38:06,510 --> 01:38:13,550
that we just experienced one with the Resolution 109-17 where we asked everyone here to shelve

1208
01:38:13,550 --> 01:38:19,450
it for a month until the citizens of Baltimore County could look at it a little clearer and

1209
01:38:19,450 --> 01:38:21,850
see how it benefited the communities of the Seventh District.

1210
01:38:22,070 --> 01:38:24,010
Mr. Papas, could you conclude your remarks, please?

1211
01:38:24,150 --> 01:38:29,770
You know, I'm sorry, but this is another exhibition of how the developer had preferential

1212
01:38:29,770 --> 01:38:33,490
treatment to speak for three additional minutes and the people get no time at all.

1213
01:38:33,590 --> 01:38:34,170
Thank you very much.

1214
01:38:34,810 --> 01:38:35,210
Thank you.

1215
01:38:35,210 --> 01:38:39,790
Our next speaker is Kathy Labouda followed by Mark Lee and

1216
01:38:48,080 --> 01:38:49,360
good afternoon, Ms. Labouda.

1217
01:38:53,070 --> 01:38:57,050
Thank you very much for letting me speak. My name is Kathy Labouda. I'm the Secretary of

1218
01:38:57,050 --> 01:39:03,030
the Treasure of Fort Harrod Community Association. I'm here speaking for myself today. I disapprove

1219
01:39:03,030 --> 01:39:10,050
of this Towson Road project. I'm known for speaking my mind and you are all elected

1220
01:39:10,050 --> 01:39:14,870
to do the people's work and not the work of special interests, billionaires, developers,

1221
01:39:14,870 --> 01:39:21,310
and cartels. As a taxpayer I'm not willing to risk the financial future and stability of my county.

1222
01:39:21,890 --> 01:39:27,930
All the past ventures that you spoke of and existing ones that you have touted are so successful.

1223
01:39:28,550 --> 01:39:33,590
If they are then why are our schools falling apart? Why do we not have enough teachers?

1224
01:39:34,170 --> 01:39:40,550
Why is our education system in shambles and the infrastructure in our communities are falling

1225
01:39:40,550 --> 01:39:47,450
apart. Our community roads are impassable. We do not have enough police in our districts

1226
01:39:47,450 --> 01:39:53,170
and our parks are deteriorating. Where has the money gone from all of these successful

1227
01:39:53,170 --> 01:39:55,050
ventures that you spoke of?

1228
01:39:58,550 --> 01:40:02,530
Our existing communities, not these new communities, our

1229
01:40:02,530 --> 01:40:09,070
existing communities are an immediate attention of services and infrastructure. The financial

1230
01:40:09,070 --> 01:40:14,710
resources from any revenue source should be used to upgrade the services and

1231
01:40:14,710 --> 01:40:18,210
infrastructures in our existing communities and not given to billionaires

1232
01:40:18,210 --> 01:40:25,850
to enrich themselves. So for as for your performance and all of these has been

1233
01:40:25,850 --> 01:40:31,610
less than impressive when it comes to the return on investment to the

1234
01:40:31,610 --> 01:40:37,950
communities who pay the taxes and Mr. Pappas is correct the communities and

1235
01:40:37,950 --> 01:40:45,950
the taxpayer will be on the hook for this. In closing, please let me remind you that

1236
01:40:45,950 --> 01:40:50,650
2018 is an election year and elections have consequences. Thank you.

1237
01:40:51,670 --> 01:40:52,190
Thank you.

1238
01:40:54,880 --> 01:40:57,460
Our next speaker is Mark Lee, followed by Larry Foulson.

1239
01:41:04,890 --> 01:41:09,530
Good afternoon. My name is Mark Lee, and I have been a Baltimore County citizen for

1240
01:41:09,530 --> 01:41:14,830
over 50 years. I am from the Fifth District, but I speak for all of the county taxpayers

1241
01:41:14,830 --> 01:41:20,450
regarding this magic money this is our money the county is proposing to be used

1242
01:41:20,450 --> 01:41:25,850
for a private development project and it comes from all over the county paid for

1243
01:41:25,850 --> 01:41:33,410
by citizens who expect their taxes will provide basic services. Essentially Caves

1244
01:41:33,410 --> 01:41:37,770
Valley partners created this mess and now the development needs taxpayer money

1245
01:41:37,770 --> 01:41:44,550
is that right? You our county council members each have a fiduciary duty to

1246
01:41:44,550 --> 01:41:50,370
every citizen of this county to spend our tax money carefully and not put that

1247
01:41:50,370 --> 01:41:55,150
money at risk. You may not have seen the degree of it yet but there is an angry

1248
01:41:55,150 --> 01:42:02,110
force growing in every part of the county. Residents are fed up and

1249
01:42:02,110 --> 01:42:05,910
are sharing stories about bad experiences they've had. They look to

1250
01:42:05,910 --> 01:42:10,070
their next line of defense and hope their elected officials can set things

1251
01:42:10,070 --> 01:42:16,630
straight. When they have been told over and over and over and over that there is no money

1252
01:42:16,630 --> 01:42:21,670
for building a new fire station, solving a noise problem at a county dog pound, repairing

1253
01:42:21,670 --> 01:42:26,370
a school, providing clean water and school fountains, keeping a community center open,

1254
01:42:26,830 --> 01:42:31,850
paving streets in their neighborhoods, rebuilding aging infrastructure or renovating a senior

1255
01:42:31,850 --> 01:42:42,150
Center, they will pay attention when miraculously the county has $43 million to give to a team

1256
01:42:42,150 --> 01:42:45,290
of two successful developers for Towson Rowe.

1257
01:42:46,730 --> 01:42:47,770
It's a miracle.

1258
01:42:49,410 --> 01:42:55,210
That gets everyone's attention, not just in Towson, but in Dundalk, Lansdown, Delaney

1259
01:42:55,210 --> 01:42:59,950
Valley, Essex, Catonsville, Pikesville, and every other part of the county.

1260
01:42:59,950 --> 01:43:03,210
The council needs to vote against this proposal.

1261
01:43:03,770 --> 01:43:14,570
If this for-profit project is too risky for the developers to invest more money into or to attract additional investment, then it is too risky for the county.

1262
01:43:15,310 --> 01:43:23,210
The developers are asking the county to take on all those risks to be a lender without collateral, interest payments, or guarantees.

1263
01:43:24,590 --> 01:43:26,030
No lender would do this.

1264
01:43:26,030 --> 01:43:32,010
Why is the county executive asking the county council to do this for private developers?

1265
01:43:32,870 --> 01:43:39,330
If you cannot vote against this, just realize that the anger boiling up in national politics will spill over here.

1266
01:43:40,190 --> 01:43:43,010
Correction, it has spilled over here.

1267
01:43:43,410 --> 01:43:49,130
Have you ever seen such a continual show of force in your political careers?

1268
01:43:49,130 --> 01:43:55,130
If you cannot vote against this, we will be using social and traditional media to make

1269
01:43:55,130 --> 01:43:58,250
sure these outrages are dispersed far and wide.

1270
01:43:58,730 --> 01:44:02,810
And the more people are upset, the more this will affect political futures.

1271
01:44:03,610 --> 01:44:08,770
To the audience, I say this to you, this is your money.

1272
01:44:09,290 --> 01:44:14,330
Do not allow the county, Kevin Kamenetz, and the developers to get away with it.

1273
01:44:15,010 --> 01:44:16,070
We are not going away.

1274
01:44:16,510 --> 01:44:17,010
Thank you.

1275
01:44:17,010 --> 01:44:18,230
Thank you, Mr. Lee.

1276
01:44:19,070 --> 01:44:21,810
Our next speaker is Larry Fogelsen, followed by Scott Hall.

1277
01:44:26,500 --> 01:44:27,060
Good morning, Scott.

1278
01:44:28,820 --> 01:44:29,580
Good afternoon.

1279
01:44:29,980 --> 01:44:30,480
Good afternoon.

1280
01:44:32,990 --> 01:44:34,510
My name is Larry Fogelsen.

1281
01:44:34,590 --> 01:44:36,730
I'm associated with the Green-Tousen Alliance

1282
01:44:37,370 --> 01:44:39,090
and have been focusing with others

1283
01:44:39,090 --> 01:44:41,870
on issues related to the adequacy of the sewer system

1284
01:44:42,390 --> 01:44:43,290
that serves Towson.

1285
01:44:44,010 --> 01:44:46,790
Towson Row will be served by the Towson Run Interceptor,

1286
01:44:46,990 --> 01:44:49,130
which along with sewer lines from Rowland Run

1287
01:44:49,130 --> 01:44:50,830
and a portion of the Lower Jones Falls

1288
01:44:50,830 --> 01:44:57,310
flows into a single 42-inch 62-year-old sewer interceptor line under Lake Rowland.

1289
01:44:58,270 --> 01:44:59,810
Our analysis based on

1290
01:45:00,000 --> 01:45:09,240
The county data shows that this Lake Roland interceptor is already over capacity and wet weather likely due to the inflow and infiltration that plagues old sewer lines.

1291
01:45:10,120 --> 01:45:14,760
We believe the surcharging may be the source of bacterial contamination in Lake Roland.

1292
01:45:15,600 --> 01:45:22,780
There are no plans that we are aware of to remediate this problem. In fact, the county maintains there is no problem.

1293
01:45:23,780 --> 01:45:29,260
However, the county is planning to build a parallel Towson Run sewer to accommodate increased

1294
01:45:29,260 --> 01:45:32,420
flows from Towson Row and growth at Towson University.

1295
01:45:33,420 --> 01:45:38,660
Increased sewage can only add to any problems in Lake Rowland and increase the raw sewage

1296
01:45:38,660 --> 01:45:40,640
discharges downstream in Baltimore City.

1297
01:45:41,700 --> 01:45:46,420
The county has not been willing to provide us with the physical cost or needs details

1298
01:45:46,420 --> 01:45:48,900
related to the new Towson Run sewer.

1299
01:45:49,700 --> 01:45:55,880
The question for the purposes of today's subject is that, if a new sewer line is indeed required

1300
01:45:55,880 --> 01:46:01,300
to serve Towson Rowe, will Towson Rowe pay a fair share of the capital costs for its construction

1301
01:46:01,940 --> 01:46:06,860
or will it be an additional cost of the development that will be shifted to county residents

1302
01:46:07,680 --> 01:46:08,300
and businesses?

1303
01:46:09,100 --> 01:46:14,140
In addition to the subsidy proposal before you, is this another unaccounted for subsidy

1304
01:46:14,140 --> 01:46:15,000
for Towson Rowe?

1305
01:46:15,900 --> 01:46:19,880
More broadly, Baltimore County does not have meaningful impact fees.

1306
01:46:20,100 --> 01:46:25,660
Others have mentioned this, such as those in many other local jurisdictions, to pay for

1307
01:46:25,660 --> 01:46:30,980
the additional services imposed by this new development in the Towson area in particular.

1308
01:46:31,880 --> 01:46:38,060
The proposed house and row subsidies actually turns the concept of impact fees upside

1309
01:46:38,060 --> 01:46:39,500
down and inside out.

1310
01:46:40,260 --> 01:46:44,320
Residents will not only pay for the proposed subsidies, but will bear the burden of the

1311
01:46:44,320 --> 01:46:47,860
costs of many additional public service needs generated

1312
01:46:47,860 --> 01:46:48,860
by this development.

1313
01:46:49,560 --> 01:46:51,740
Everyone likes to tap the alleged benefits.

1314
01:46:52,660 --> 01:46:55,300
No one likes to calculate and show the true costs

1315
01:46:55,300 --> 01:46:59,300
to our already overburdened county services, sewer, water,

1316
01:46:59,500 --> 01:47:01,940
transportation, public safety, open space,

1317
01:47:02,580 --> 01:47:03,640
and the list goes on.

1318
01:47:04,620 --> 01:47:07,800
Accounting 101 teaches that a ledger has two sides.

1319
01:47:08,980 --> 01:47:11,140
We urge you to measure and consider both sides

1320
01:47:11,140 --> 01:47:13,380
before you take hasty action that

1321
01:47:13,380 --> 01:47:17,180
It may not be in the best interests of all county businesses and residents.

1322
01:47:19,860 --> 01:47:20,380
Thank you.

1323
01:47:20,820 --> 01:47:21,840
Thank you, Mr. Ferguson.

1324
01:47:22,580 --> 01:47:24,540
Next speaker, Scott Hall, followed by Heather Patty.

1325
01:47:39,560 --> 01:47:41,120
Thank you for the opportunity to speak.

1326
01:47:42,300 --> 01:47:50,320
Within the world of spies, the word nugget is the British term for the bait offered to a potential defector.

1327
01:47:51,200 --> 01:47:57,940
That bait or nugget could be money, political asylum, sex, or a job.

1328
01:47:57,940 --> 01:48:03,940
The shiny surface of that nugget misdirects the attention of the potential defector.

1329
01:48:04,720 --> 01:48:13,100
That shiny surface hides the uncontrolled predicament the potential defector will eventually find himself in.

1330
01:48:14,300 --> 01:48:19,840
Once the defector commits and provides the information he becomes a pawn of his handler,

1331
01:48:20,240 --> 01:48:25,760
he becomes a hostage of his handler because the defector made the wrong choice.

1332
01:48:25,760 --> 01:48:31,140
Because a long prison term, sentence, is only one phone call away.

1333
01:48:32,120 --> 01:48:39,920
What does this have to do with giving $43 million of taxpayers' hard-earned money to land developers of 1,000 row?

1334
01:48:40,840 --> 01:48:50,080
Everything. Once you commit, once you have given any money to the land developers for this project, you have committed.

1335
01:48:50,080 --> 01:48:58,500
it. You become the pawn. You become the hostage. You become the giver of last resort. You become

1336
01:48:58,500 --> 01:49:04,280
the deep pockets. You place yourselves in the unendurable position of keeping this project

1337
01:49:04,280 --> 01:49:12,100
afloat if it becomes the Titanic. Do you really want to place yourselves in that position?

1338
01:49:13,300 --> 01:49:19,340
If the land developers had to travel all the way to California to find either a linchpin

1339
01:49:19,340 --> 01:49:29,960
lender or a linchpin investor? Doesn't that tell you something? Doesn't that tell you a

1340
01:49:29,960 --> 01:49:37,940
lot? If you collectively believe giving money is the rational course to take, what portion

1341
01:49:37,940 --> 01:49:44,080
of ownership or equity does the county receive? What are our projected profits?

1342
01:49:48,760 --> 01:49:49,200
Not projected

1343
01:49:49,200 --> 01:49:55,360
tax benefits from this project is not a return on investment. That is called a

1344
01:49:55,360 --> 01:50:03,520
legal obligation of the owners. What money did all of us in this room, what

1345
01:50:03,520 --> 01:50:08,580
money did you give to all of us in this room before we paid our taxes?

1346
01:50:10,680 --> 01:50:11,260
As someone

1347
01:50:11,260 --> 01:50:21,800
who has had more than four decades of financial experience, I believe in no

1348
01:50:21,800 --> 01:50:27,160
harder money for this project, defies every semblance of common sense.

1349
01:50:28,040 --> 01:50:34,680
It makes about as much sense as investing in a factory that will make only two products,

1350
01:50:35,760 --> 01:50:41,400
screen doors for submarines, and Venetian blinds for nudist colonists.

1351
01:50:44,000 --> 01:50:49,460
I prefer to believe that each one of you is capable of making decisions more rational

1352
01:50:49,460 --> 01:50:50,000
than that.

1353
01:50:50,780 --> 01:50:52,060
Those are my prepared marks.

1354
01:50:52,280 --> 01:50:58,060
I just want to add one quick comment regarding Mr. Crandall's question about risk assessment.

1355
01:50:59,000 --> 01:51:03,560
You know, all of us are guilty of not stating the things that are most obvious in front of us.

1356
01:51:04,160 --> 01:51:05,740
And there are three things that are very obvious here.

1357
01:51:06,840 --> 01:51:12,340
First off, there's an accelerated schedule for approval that Mr. Mark referred to earlier.

1358
01:51:12,940 --> 01:51:15,180
Secondly, there's an accelerated schedule for payment.

1359
01:51:15,920 --> 01:51:17,420
Larger payments are coming up front.

1360
01:51:17,420 --> 01:51:21,740
Now they made that perfectly clear, where it should meet just the all the way around.

1361
01:51:21,860 --> 01:51:23,180
The largest payment should be at the end.

1362
01:51:24,300 --> 01:51:31,800
And most importantly, they didn't provide the risk assessment because they don't want you to see it.

1363
01:51:32,940 --> 01:51:34,120
Thank you, Mr. Hall.

1364
01:51:35,780 --> 01:51:39,660
Our next speaker is Heather Paddy, followed by Mark Baskerville.

1365
01:51:47,770 --> 01:51:51,930
Well, that paying the salary had to say, so I'm just going to pretend he's there.

1366
01:51:52,950 --> 01:51:58,470
Hi. My name is Heather Patty. I'm a resident and homeowner of Baltimore County in Whitemarsh.

1367
01:51:59,130 --> 01:52:03,170
My initial thoughts when I heard that our county executive wants to give Greenberg and

1368
01:52:03,170 --> 01:52:09,970
Gibbons Caves Valley Partners $43 million. I was speechless. Luckily for you today,

1369
01:52:10,370 --> 01:52:16,750
I have been able to put my expressions into words. I'm also very passionate about my

1370
01:52:16,750 --> 01:52:21,690
beliefs as many of you who know me will attest. So while the pros have been touted

1371
01:52:21,690 --> 01:52:26,550
boosting the local economy and removing an eyesore vacant lot, I find these

1372
01:52:26,550 --> 01:52:32,830
pros to be weakened without significant benefit. Yes, and no disrespect, the

1373
01:52:32,830 --> 01:52:37,230
Towson Chamber of Commerce has given this proposal its blessing, but what if

1374
01:52:37,230 --> 01:52:42,070
they're wrong? Both the Chesapeake Gateway Chamber of Commerce and the

1375
01:52:42,070 --> 01:52:46,450
Baltimore County Chamber of Commerce were wrong with Paragon. You remember

1376
01:52:46,450 --> 01:52:50,870
Paragon? The outlet mall developer, they dumped big money into many campaign

1377
01:52:50,870 --> 01:52:55,510
paying accounts. They left with their tails between their legs after the Council did

1378
01:52:55,510 --> 01:52:59,810
everything they could to appease them just months before the construction was to begin

1379
01:52:59,810 --> 01:53:06,310
on the big outlet mall. Both of their endorsements for those chambers of commerce were woefully

1380
01:53:06,310 --> 01:53:11,370
inadequate. Why should I as a taxpayer have faith that the Towson Chamber of Commerce

1381
01:53:11,370 --> 01:53:16,210
endorsement will be any different? As with Paragon, Baltimore County government

1382
01:53:16,210 --> 01:53:21,490
is once again giving preferential treatment to one developer over other developers who could

1383
01:53:21,490 --> 01:53:27,250
possibly take over and complete the project without handouts. No disrespect intended.

1384
01:53:28,090 --> 01:53:34,250
There's other developers that could bail out Caves Valley. Why is it always the same

1385
01:53:34,250 --> 01:53:39,230
pool that we're dealing with? Unanswered questions to me include why does the developer

1386
01:53:39,230 --> 01:53:44,450
need $43 million to finalize their financing through a California-based pension fund?

1387
01:53:44,450 --> 01:53:47,270
Why are there no local, as it was already said?

1388
01:53:48,550 --> 01:53:50,530
This is a bad risk. It's a bad risk loan.

1389
01:53:50,730 --> 01:53:52,830
Why are we funding this? Does that represent

1390
01:53:52,830 --> 01:53:55,590
fiduciary responsibility or favoritism, or both?

1391
01:53:56,290 --> 01:53:59,850
How can you assure the citizens of Baltimore County

1392
01:53:59,850 --> 01:54:01,630
that a hotel in the heart of Towson

1393
01:54:01,630 --> 01:54:04,130
with no underground parking garage

1394
01:54:04,130 --> 01:54:06,070
and no conference room availability

1395
01:54:06,070 --> 01:54:09,030
is even going to be successful for 12 to 20 years?

1396
01:54:10,310 --> 01:54:13,090
How can Baltimore County Council make such an important

1397
01:54:13,090 --> 01:54:17,990
an expensive decision without this information readily available, as David Mark said.

1398
01:54:18,330 --> 01:54:21,370
I don't believe the means justify the end in this hurried decision.

1399
01:54:22,150 --> 01:54:26,470
I find this proposal to be an extreme misuse of county funds, especially as there are

1400
01:54:26,470 --> 01:54:29,130
so many outstanding countywide infrastructure needs.

1401
01:54:29,770 --> 01:54:34,850
I have a very big problem with the county executive who wishes to use the general

1402
01:54:34,850 --> 01:54:41,690
fund for payment to developers who provide direct financial support to his political

1403
01:54:41,690 --> 01:54:47,310
endeavors. And so should you. How can I be assured that none of these county funds are

1404
01:54:47,310 --> 01:54:49,830
going to end up in Chem and its gubernatorial campaign?

1405
01:54:50,430 --> 01:54:55,990
Mama's finished. This proposal poses a definite conflict of interest and I have serious concerns

1406
01:54:55,990 --> 01:55:01,070
about the ethics of any council person who votes in favor of this proposal. Your job

1407
01:55:01,070 --> 01:55:06,810
is to represent us, not pacify the county executives every wish. I encourage every

1408
01:55:06,810 --> 01:55:10,090
member of the council to vote no to this outlandish proposal.

1409
01:55:10,610 --> 01:55:11,270
Do the right thing.

1410
01:55:11,850 --> 01:55:13,170
Thank you, Ms. Patti.

1411
01:55:14,090 --> 01:55:16,050
Our next speaker is Mark Baskerville,

1412
01:55:16,230 --> 01:55:20,070
followed by Ms. Evans Letocha.

1413
01:55:20,910 --> 01:55:22,390
Letocha, I believe that is.

1414
01:55:23,110 --> 01:55:23,510
Thank you.

1415
01:55:24,990 --> 01:55:25,890
Good afternoon.

1416
01:55:26,250 --> 01:55:26,390
Hi.

1417
01:55:27,330 --> 01:55:30,030
I'm Mark Baskerville with Maryland Campaign for Liberty.

1418
01:55:30,450 --> 01:55:35,430
We are against this and any handouts of public funds

1419
01:55:35,430 --> 01:55:42,570
to a private interest or developer and we'll be reporting any votes in favor of such publicly.

1420
01:55:43,970 --> 01:55:50,490
So there's been a lot of assumptions about this project, things that can't be proven

1421
01:55:50,490 --> 01:55:56,470
about the future. One of the biggest assumptions used to justify this project that has been

1422
01:55:56,470 --> 01:56:03,030
overlooked is the assumption that it can't happen without a taxpayer-funded bailout.

1423
01:56:03,030 --> 01:56:06,910
That's the whole basis of what's being used to try to sell this.

1424
01:56:07,770 --> 01:56:12,170
There's already supposedly, according to the Chamber of Commerce and others,

1425
01:56:12,870 --> 01:56:17,430
plenty of private demand for hotel space and so forth.

1426
01:56:18,050 --> 01:56:22,150
And, you know, if the demand is there, there's already a profit motive

1427
01:56:22,150 --> 01:56:26,610
for developers and investors to make the project happen

1428
01:56:26,610 --> 01:56:30,930
and increase the tax base if that's what your incentive is.

1429
01:56:30,930 --> 01:56:32,310
It's not really my incentive.

1430
01:56:32,590 --> 01:56:36,810
I would like to decrease the tax base and return that back to the individual citizens more.

1431
01:56:38,370 --> 01:56:40,490
But so that's one big assumption.

1432
01:56:42,270 --> 01:56:48,050
Another fundamental problem with this is I'm pretty sure, correct me if I'm wrong, not

1433
01:56:48,050 --> 01:56:52,330
a single council member here has a professional background in real estate finance.

1434
01:56:52,930 --> 01:56:58,570
And if they do, I mean, let me know, but I don't know that there's any successful

1435
01:56:58,570 --> 01:57:00,790
a successful track record there.

1436
01:57:01,750 --> 01:57:05,350
So it seems like the council is not qualified

1437
01:57:05,350 --> 01:57:09,050
to make an investment decision,

1438
01:57:09,230 --> 01:57:10,830
so-called investment decision here,

1439
01:57:11,110 --> 01:57:12,410
with taxpayers' dollars,

1440
01:57:13,050 --> 01:57:16,530
especially considering, as Councilman Marks pointed out,

1441
01:57:17,010 --> 01:57:18,810
the extremely short time frame

1442
01:57:18,810 --> 01:57:20,590
in which you've been familiar with this issue.

1443
01:57:21,430 --> 01:57:24,930
So don't make the decision to fund this

1444
01:57:24,930 --> 01:57:27,550
without expertise and without enough time

1445
01:57:27,550 --> 01:57:33,190
even look at it you know and thoroughly and also I also want to point out that

1446
01:57:33,190 --> 01:57:40,030
there are costs here to jobs it's this is sold as this is all big jobs program

1447
01:57:40,030 --> 01:57:45,750
it helps build jobs but where is this money coming from it's coming from

1448
01:57:45,750 --> 01:57:51,250
small businesses it's coming from personal property taxes it's coming from

1449
01:57:51,250 --> 01:57:55,790
income taxes it's coming from costs that citizens are paying and

1450
01:57:55,790 --> 01:58:01,770
businesses are paying. So it's just in order to create these funds for handouts, you're

1451
01:58:01,770 --> 01:58:06,770
having to nickel and dime the population. You're having to nickel and dime small businesses

1452
01:58:06,770 --> 01:58:13,930
who may not be able to hire that next employee now because of the tax burden. You're nickel

1453
01:58:13,930 --> 01:58:18,930
and diming regular citizens and consumers who can't go buy stuff from local businesses

1454
01:58:18,930 --> 01:58:25,210
anymore or any business. So in that sense, you're reducing jobs there and help preventing

1455
01:58:25,210 --> 01:58:26,570
other businesses from expanding.

1456
01:58:27,130 --> 01:58:30,410
That's an assumption that was not included in these economic models.

1457
01:58:31,010 --> 01:58:32,750
Definitely needs to be accounted for.

1458
01:58:33,490 --> 01:58:34,430
So, thanks.

1459
01:58:34,790 --> 01:58:35,930
Thank you, Mr. Baskerville.

1460
01:58:36,090 --> 01:58:40,450
And if I could ask you if you do send out some of your group emails, which we all are

1461
01:58:40,450 --> 01:58:45,490
familiar with, if you could kindly ask the people to also send us their emails

1462
01:58:45,490 --> 01:58:46,730
so we can respond to them.

1463
01:58:46,990 --> 01:58:50,410
For some reason, we're unable to respond to them, and I would love to respond to

1464
01:58:50,410 --> 01:58:52,870
some of the people to make sure they're presented both sides.

1465
01:58:54,070 --> 01:58:56,890
Maybe you don't want them to know the facts, but thank you for coming.

1466
01:58:57,410 --> 01:59:01,430
Our next speaker is Ms. Evans Latocha, followed by Senator Brochan.

1467
01:59:04,330 --> 01:59:04,770
Good afternoon.

1468
01:59:05,610 --> 01:59:05,630
Thank you.

1469
01:59:05,630 --> 01:59:10,550
So I'm a resident of Towson in the Fifth District.

1470
01:59:12,630 --> 01:59:22,570
Previous speakers mentioned the quality of life game and the importance of this development to attracting people to Towson.

1471
01:59:22,570 --> 01:59:27,170
I wanted to point out that one of the other parts of the quality of life that attract

1472
01:59:27,170 --> 01:59:31,010
people to Towson are our schools, our roads, our infrastructure.

1473
01:59:31,930 --> 01:59:39,230
So if Baltimore County gives away the 43 million, 16 million which we're never getting

1474
01:59:39,230 --> 01:59:46,150
back or 18 million that's costing the county in the first year, when we as citizens

1475
01:59:47,690 --> 01:59:51,910
for improved schools, 120 million for Lansdowne High School,

1476
01:59:52,030 --> 01:59:54,590
for Delaney High School, Towson High School.

1477
01:59:55,090 --> 01:59:57,970
When we ask for our roads to be paved, we always hear,

1478
01:59:58,030 --> 01:59:59,930
sorry, there's no money in the county.

1479
02:00:00,000 --> 02:00:06,220
Any budget for these things? Why is there suddenly money for the developers, but there's no money

1480
02:00:06,880 --> 02:00:14,760
for county services to our taxpayers? So when I'm on my roads in Stonely Neighborhood,

1481
02:00:14,800 --> 02:00:19,280
haven't been repaved for the entire time that I've lived there. There are potholes, there

1482
02:00:19,280 --> 02:00:25,520
are bumps on Stevenson Road, on Bosley. Why does it take that long to get those roads

1483
02:00:25,520 --> 02:00:29,920
when, you know, when are we going to get that money back?

1484
02:00:30,060 --> 02:00:34,700
Am I going to have to wait the 12 to 14 years for the money to come back from this development

1485
02:00:34,700 --> 02:00:36,920
to get my schools and roads improved?

1486
02:00:39,610 --> 02:00:46,630
Think about that when you're considering where this proposal to give away money to developers

1487
02:00:46,630 --> 02:00:51,950
when you're not providing the services to county taxpayers that we're paying for.

1488
02:00:52,250 --> 02:00:52,690
Thank you.

1489
02:00:52,690 --> 02:00:59,410
Thank you. Our next speaker is Senator Jim Broch and followed by C.R. Hogan-Dorp.

1490
02:01:02,610 --> 02:01:04,270
Good afternoon. Thank you for your patience.

1491
02:01:04,550 --> 02:01:07,890
Good afternoon, and thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the council.

1492
02:01:08,810 --> 02:01:12,590
A lot's been said today. I just want to make two points that I don't think have been said.

1493
02:01:13,530 --> 02:01:18,110
This isn't just a $46.9 million bailout.

1494
02:01:18,810 --> 02:01:23,770
There's also an undisclosed amount, which we think is somewhere between $20 and $30 million worth of infrastructure

1495
02:01:23,770 --> 02:01:28,410
It's been done at York and Towson Town Boulevard that the Cabinet's administration has put in.

1496
02:01:28,850 --> 02:01:34,830
So the total cost in taxpayer-funded dollars is closer to 80 to 90 million rather than 46.9 million.

1497
02:01:35,450 --> 02:01:36,890
The second piece is this.

1498
02:01:37,670 --> 02:01:42,770
I had the opportunity last week to go to get a tour of Trade Point in Atlantic.

1499
02:01:43,290 --> 02:01:45,770
And what they're doing there is fascinating.

1500
02:01:46,410 --> 02:01:50,290
And at the end of my tour, they showed me a map.

1501
02:01:50,810 --> 02:01:59,150
And on the map, they showed a barren top third of the map and I said how come there's no development going on here?

1502
02:01:59,510 --> 02:02:02,990
Because you know in the other two thirds we have Amazon and FedEx and all these other things.

1503
02:02:03,830 --> 02:02:09,810
And they looked at me and they said well senator they said there's no public sewer and there's no public water here.

1504
02:02:10,190 --> 02:02:15,490
And I said why not? And they said this administration hasn't given it to us yet.

1505
02:02:15,490 --> 02:02:17,730
And I said, what did they say?

1506
02:02:18,150 --> 02:02:20,370
And they said to us, wait your turn.

1507
02:02:20,950 --> 02:02:25,950
So, in deference to the councilwoman over here, it is an either or an or.

1508
02:02:26,250 --> 02:02:31,090
Okay, and the merits of a district on the east side of Baltimore County,

1509
02:02:31,090 --> 02:02:35,710
where the unemployment rate is probably 10 times what it is in my district in Taliesin and Timonium,

1510
02:02:36,070 --> 02:02:38,350
I would counter and tell you that there is an either or,

1511
02:02:38,830 --> 02:02:42,210
and I would rather have this money and these funds go to the east side

1512
02:02:42,210 --> 02:02:45,590
in Tray Point Atlantic than in my district.

1513
02:02:45,870 --> 02:02:46,270
So thank you.

1514
02:02:48,370 --> 02:02:50,410
Thank you, Senator.

1515
02:02:50,870 --> 02:02:51,390
Councilor Jones.

1516
02:02:51,990 --> 02:02:54,650
Mr. Brochin, I'm Senator Brochin, I do apologize.

1517
02:02:55,370 --> 02:02:58,870
I was just curious, I heard what you said

1518
02:02:58,870 --> 02:03:00,230
about Tray Point Atlantic.

1519
02:03:00,770 --> 02:03:03,010
And I was just curious, so how do you reconcile,

1520
02:03:03,690 --> 02:03:05,950
I'm trying to figure out if you are,

1521
02:03:06,310 --> 02:03:08,830
I'm assuming that you are against this investment.

1522
02:03:09,150 --> 02:03:12,150
So I would be fine if it was a loan

1523
02:03:12,150 --> 02:03:17,450
and the people in my district would be fine with this, if it's alone, I know that the

1524
02:03:17,450 --> 02:03:21,150
new developer that's coming in, and like you, I have a lot of confidence in the work that

1525
02:03:21,150 --> 02:03:25,750
Mr. Gibbons can do, so I'm not against the project. I think the project is going to come

1526
02:03:25,750 --> 02:03:31,590
out much, much better than the previous developer, but I don't think we should, but it's

1527
02:03:31,590 --> 02:03:36,290
the $46.9 million. I think it's better spent elsewhere in the county where the

1528
02:03:36,290 --> 02:03:40,650
need is greater, because it is an either or an or. Councilman, we don't have

1529
02:03:40,650 --> 02:03:44,870
an unlimited amount of money we just can't keep throwing tax incentives all

1530
02:03:44,870 --> 02:03:47,890
over the county we have to make decisions you have to make them I have to

1531
02:03:47,890 --> 02:03:52,190
make them on the state level and we have to prioritize and I think in this case

1532
02:03:52,190 --> 02:03:57,330
between the east side of the county and between here that if we prioritize I

1533
02:03:57,330 --> 02:04:02,010
don't think there's any there's any doubt of where the where the first 46

1534
02:04:02,010 --> 02:04:07,710
million dollars should go okay so let I guess my question was how do you

1535
02:04:07,710 --> 02:04:17,820
If this is a good project, the project on the east side, the old Sparrows Point project,

1536
02:04:18,590 --> 02:04:19,950
that's private investment.

1537
02:04:20,190 --> 02:04:20,390
Correct.

1538
02:04:20,870 --> 02:04:26,730
So the infrastructure that you're talking, as I understand it, that'll be made on private property.

1539
02:04:26,850 --> 02:04:27,070
Correct.

1540
02:04:27,950 --> 02:04:33,190
So it's okay to give them the money, but it's not okay to give the money here.

1541
02:04:33,350 --> 02:04:35,350
Okay, so I think you just asked a great question.

1542
02:04:35,530 --> 02:04:36,410
I'm going to give you the answer.

1543
02:04:36,410 --> 02:04:42,670
And the answer is a question, and the question is, how did we get here in the first place?

1544
02:04:43,130 --> 02:04:48,830
And we got here in the first place because as the new developers have to have said...

1545
02:04:48,830 --> 02:04:50,130
It's like they call that water under the bridge.

1546
02:04:50,290 --> 02:04:57,690
Have said, the project that came forward under Cays Valley was not economically viable.

1547
02:04:58,130 --> 02:05:01,690
It wasn't economically viable from the first day it was instituted.

1548
02:05:02,230 --> 02:05:10,170
And then, despite, even though it wasn't economically viable, when it came time to do what they were supposed to break ground,

1549
02:05:10,570 --> 02:05:17,750
they found that in fact there was too much rock in the ground. So they couldn't even drill down.

1550
02:05:18,190 --> 02:05:24,350
So now they put us in a position because the administration had decided, well, you know, we'll just demolish the block.

1551
02:05:24,590 --> 02:05:27,990
We won't wait to see if it's economically viable. We'll just demolish it.

1552
02:05:27,990 --> 02:05:33,750
So I feel like my constituents are kind of being extorted and the extortion is to take your pick

1553
02:05:33,750 --> 02:05:36,850
Okay, have this hole in the ground for the last two and a half years

1554
02:05:36,850 --> 02:05:41,530
for you know for the last two and a half years and and however long in the future or

1555
02:05:42,190 --> 02:05:44,890
Say yes to a 46.9 million dollar ballot

1556
02:05:44,890 --> 02:05:52,470
So the answer is that there's a huge difference and the difference is that the previous developer put us in this situation

1557
02:05:52,470 --> 02:05:54,190
In a plan that wasn't economically

1558
02:05:54,750 --> 02:05:59,790
viable, and they made a big mistake, which is why they ended up selling up to 95% of the

1559
02:05:59,790 --> 02:06:00,010
share.

1560
02:06:00,330 --> 02:06:04,210
They didn't do their due diligence, and there was rock in the ground, and the big question

1561
02:06:04,210 --> 02:06:07,230
to all seven of you is why should we have to pay for it?

1562
02:06:07,630 --> 02:06:07,930
Well,

1563
02:06:10,550 --> 02:06:18,010
I appreciate your statement.

1564
02:06:19,110 --> 02:06:22,990
However, it runs contrary to everything that was said earlier today.

1565
02:06:22,990 --> 02:06:26,830
We heard from Anima Bonsoon from Sage Policy.

1566
02:06:27,310 --> 02:06:28,710
We heard from the administration.

1567
02:06:29,390 --> 02:06:31,050
We heard that this is not a gift.

1568
02:06:31,190 --> 02:06:33,650
This is monies that they would be do anyway.

1569
02:06:34,790 --> 02:06:40,070
And to characterize it as a $40 million giveaway is just inaccurate.

1570
02:06:40,790 --> 02:06:42,370
So, I mean, I don't know what...

1571
02:06:42,370 --> 02:06:48,030
Okay, $16 billion, $23 billion, $24 billion, $24 million.

1572
02:06:48,450 --> 02:06:50,750
The fact of the matter is it's just not true.

1573
02:06:50,750 --> 02:06:55,730
can we have order yeah the fact of the matter is I guess it's just not true so

1574
02:06:55,730 --> 02:07:02,390
I mean I appreciate your comments but I think you know you're comparing apples

1575
02:07:02,390 --> 02:07:07,910
and oranges when you start talking about what's happening at when the east side

1576
02:07:07,910 --> 02:07:12,990
versus what's happening here because we have to do everything we can the fact of

1577
02:07:12,990 --> 02:07:18,590
the matter is out income to fund schools come from property taxes and

1578
02:07:18,590 --> 02:07:24,510
income taxes. That is some of the large portions of our income. So unless we come up with other

1579
02:07:24,510 --> 02:07:30,950
sources of income, like these taxes from the hotel tax and things of that nature, the burden

1580
02:07:30,950 --> 02:07:32,950
falls disproportionately on the citizens.

1581
02:07:33,850 --> 02:07:39,870
So I would counter and say two things. First of all, I think our responsibility for all

1582
02:07:39,870 --> 02:07:45,430
of the elected officials, not just the council, is to start off with the parts

1583
02:07:45,430 --> 02:07:48,810
of the county that are not as economically advantaged as the TAL scenario.

1584
02:07:49,050 --> 02:07:50,330
I think that's our first responsibility.

1585
02:07:50,850 --> 02:07:54,430
And secondly, I have tremendous respect for Mr. Basu.

1586
02:07:54,550 --> 02:07:58,730
I would love it if he were still here and would come up and sit next to me and we could

1587
02:07:58,730 --> 02:08:03,030
talk about Trade Point Atlantic and giving water and sewer to that last third so they

1588
02:08:03,030 --> 02:08:06,650
can do the wonderful things they've done in the bottom two thirds versus this project

1589
02:08:06,650 --> 02:08:07,130
right here.

1590
02:08:07,250 --> 02:08:10,630
I would love it if he would sit here and give us and do an analysis of those

1591
02:08:10,630 --> 02:08:16,890
to because clearly I see and I think I think most people see that our priority

1592
02:08:16,890 --> 02:08:20,370
should be in something that's going to get the people back on the east side back

1593
02:08:20,370 --> 02:08:24,290
to work you know I have to tell you something the unemployment rate in my

1594
02:08:24,290 --> 02:08:30,270
district in the 42nd is probably below 3% in other in other parts of the

1595
02:08:30,270 --> 02:08:36,210
county it's a heck of a lot higher. Senator with due respect you just said

1596
02:08:36,210 --> 02:08:39,990
that you have a tremendous amount of respect for Mr. Basu and I'm not

1597
02:08:39,990 --> 02:08:46,410
not sure if you had a chance to read his economic analysis on how this project would create 2,000

1598
02:08:46,410 --> 02:08:51,030
permanent jobs in Baltimore County, where the 220 million in annual business activity,

1599
02:08:51,410 --> 02:08:53,650
where the 92 million in employee compensation.

1600
02:08:54,330 --> 02:08:58,910
So the next county executive is going to be really facing a tough dilemma.

1601
02:08:59,430 --> 02:09:03,070
Next county executive is going to walk in a situation where, yeah, we need more schools.

1602
02:09:03,630 --> 02:09:04,790
We definitely need roads.

1603
02:09:05,250 --> 02:09:06,870
We definitely need improvement in infrastructure.

1604
02:09:06,870 --> 02:09:10,970
So as you know, and as everybody in this room knows, there's only a few ways to do that.

1605
02:09:11,390 --> 02:09:12,870
We can raise income taxes.

1606
02:09:13,550 --> 02:09:15,390
We can raise property taxes.

1607
02:09:15,770 --> 02:09:16,590
We can raise both.

1608
02:09:17,230 --> 02:09:23,150
Or we can also do smart development because development actually helps bring jobs.

1609
02:09:23,870 --> 02:09:26,590
And jobs build a tax base.

1610
02:09:27,330 --> 02:09:29,370
And a tax base helps build schools.

1611
02:09:30,130 --> 02:09:31,990
A tax base helps pay for our police.

1612
02:09:32,590 --> 02:09:35,670
A tax base helps pay for government services.

1613
02:09:36,170 --> 02:09:41,410
So, for example, are you prepared to say that you would rather raise property and income taxes

1614
02:09:41,410 --> 02:09:43,670
to make sure we have the schools and the roads that we need?

1615
02:09:44,070 --> 02:09:45,710
That's a funny question, Mr. Chairman.

1616
02:09:45,850 --> 02:09:48,190
But I have to – if we can get serious for a second.

1617
02:09:48,850 --> 02:09:49,690
I'm very serious.

1618
02:09:50,190 --> 02:09:52,930
So you just said that you support Mr. Abasio.

1619
02:09:53,230 --> 02:09:54,990
Tell me what you disagree with in this study.

1620
02:09:55,290 --> 02:09:56,350
Is it the 2,000 jobs?

1621
02:09:56,510 --> 02:09:57,710
Do you think it won't create jobs?

1622
02:09:58,090 --> 02:10:00,050
Do you think jobs do not provide a tax base?

1623
02:10:00,470 --> 02:10:02,850
Tell me what you disagree with if you support Mr. Abasio.

1624
02:10:02,850 --> 02:10:05,830
So, if you'll let me speak, here's the answer to the question.

1625
02:10:06,330 --> 02:10:07,290
The answer is simple.

1626
02:10:07,410 --> 02:10:09,590
First of all, I agree with his analysis.

1627
02:10:09,770 --> 02:10:11,470
I think he's a smart and talented guy.

1628
02:10:11,690 --> 02:10:15,850
But maybe the part that you and I disagree on, Mr. Chairman, is I don't think there's

1629
02:10:15,850 --> 02:10:19,010
unlimited, an unlimited pot of money in government, okay?

1630
02:10:19,250 --> 02:10:20,410
There's only a certain amount.

1631
02:10:20,750 --> 02:10:23,730
So if you agree with that, the question is where should it go?

1632
02:10:24,030 --> 02:10:28,370
Should it go in the 42nd District in an area where the previous developer made

1633
02:10:28,370 --> 02:10:33,210
a colossal mistake and is asking all of you to bail it out, or should it go on the east

1634
02:10:33,210 --> 02:10:37,670
side where the unemployment rate is probably 10 times what it is in my district and an

1635
02:10:37,670 --> 02:10:42,530
area that's had tremendous success and needs to grow so they can work on that tax base

1636
02:10:42,530 --> 02:10:45,710
so they can work on schools and roads and things like that.

1637
02:10:45,950 --> 02:10:49,810
It's a question of priorities, Mr. Chairman, and the question is what's a bigger priority?

1638
02:10:50,150 --> 02:10:54,370
And for my district, and I'm speaking on behalf of the 42nd district, we think

1639
02:10:54,370 --> 02:11:00,030
the money is better well spent in another part of Baltimore County that needs the economic

1640
02:11:00,030 --> 02:11:05,230
help and not to bail out the previous developer who didn't get it right.

1641
02:11:05,930 --> 02:11:06,630
Mr. Chairman.

1642
02:11:06,830 --> 02:11:07,470
One second.

1643
02:11:07,610 --> 02:11:11,510
Where we respectfully disagree, Senator, is you're saying, and we agree, there's not

1644
02:11:11,510 --> 02:11:12,730
an unlimited pot of money.

1645
02:11:13,370 --> 02:11:18,190
And so to increase that pot of money means increasing property taxes, increasing income

1646
02:11:18,190 --> 02:11:22,690
taxes, or doing smart development that actually helps to create jobs.

1647
02:11:22,690 --> 02:11:24,590
and that's how you grow the revenue base.

1648
02:11:24,930 --> 02:11:25,570
Councilwoman Oman?

1649
02:11:26,610 --> 02:11:29,050
Senator, what makes you think we are not doing anything

1650
02:11:29,050 --> 02:11:29,970
at Trade Point Atlantic?

1651
02:11:30,210 --> 02:11:31,370
That's what they told me.

1652
02:11:31,630 --> 02:11:34,790
All right.

1653
02:11:34,810 --> 02:11:37,690
And let me clarify that for a second.

1654
02:11:38,150 --> 02:11:42,050
In the two thirds that has water and sewer,

1655
02:11:42,390 --> 02:11:43,090
they're doing a lot.

1656
02:11:43,570 --> 02:11:44,950
In the one third that isn't,

1657
02:11:45,070 --> 02:11:47,370
they said that the cabinet's administration told them to

1658
02:11:47,370 --> 02:11:48,930
quote, wait your turn.

1659
02:11:48,930 --> 02:11:49,570
Okay.

1660
02:11:53,140 --> 02:11:55,140
Please. I

1661
02:12:42,630 --> 02:12:53,050
think there's a great way to put $43 million into that water and sewer right now. I really do. Are there any questions or comments for Senator Burtian?

1662
02:12:53,570 --> 02:13:02,850
Not for Senator Burtian, Mr. Chair, but since Will Anderson is still here, I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around the numbers that Mr. Burtian is throwing out.

1663
02:13:02,850 --> 02:13:07,630
Is my unemployment rate ten times higher than his district?

1664
02:13:08,890 --> 02:13:10,050
I didn't think so.

1665
02:13:10,210 --> 02:13:10,770
Thank you.

1666
02:13:14,670 --> 02:13:15,110
Yeah.

1667
02:13:15,130 --> 02:13:16,850
We do not have 30% unemployment.

1668
02:13:17,190 --> 02:13:20,410
Could you please put clarity on that, since this is televised?

1669
02:13:32,440 --> 02:13:33,580
Same on the west side.

1670
02:13:34,240 --> 02:13:34,600
I would assume.

1671
02:13:43,560 --> 02:13:46,080
Thank you for that clarification from Mr. Broschian.

1672
02:13:47,200 --> 02:13:47,620
All righty.

1673
02:13:47,720 --> 02:13:49,460
Our next speaker is not here.

1674
02:13:49,640 --> 02:13:50,500
C.R. Hogan-Dorff.

1675
02:13:50,700 --> 02:13:51,140
So we will.

1676
02:13:56,280 --> 02:13:56,560
Okay.

1677
02:13:56,640 --> 02:13:57,500
This is coming to support it.

1678
02:13:57,540 --> 02:13:57,840
Thank you.

1679
02:13:57,840 --> 02:14:01,880
Our next speaker is Rick Bielski followed by Nancy Hafford.

1680
02:14:06,570 --> 02:14:09,990
And good afternoon, almost evening, Mr. Bielski.

1681
02:14:18,420 --> 02:14:22,200
Hi, my name is Richard Bielski. I'm a lifelong Baltimore County resident.

1682
02:14:22,860 --> 02:14:26,080
I'm also a business owner and property owner in Towson.

1683
02:14:26,640 --> 02:14:28,880
I own Charles Village Pub and Patio in Towson.

1684
02:14:29,600 --> 02:14:33,980
And I've been there for 28 years and you've seen a lot of lean times in Towson.

1685
02:14:33,980 --> 02:14:39,940
I was in there in the early 90s when it was kind of dead down and around in Towson.

1686
02:14:40,400 --> 02:14:42,140
I support this project here.

1687
02:14:42,300 --> 02:14:47,100
I believe that Towson needs, I think this is going to be a home run for Towson.

1688
02:14:47,680 --> 02:14:52,060
I think the testimony and the things that I've heard today is definitely moving in

1689
02:14:52,060 --> 02:14:54,500
the direction to keep up with everybody else that's going on.

1690
02:14:54,500 --> 02:14:59,800
I hear all about everybody going downtown and everybody going to, you know, White Marsh.

1691
02:15:00,000 --> 02:15:05,260
And everybody going to these other places that have done projects like this, and I think

1692
02:15:05,260 --> 02:15:10,780
that we should just be a part of it as well. Towson is a great community. I also live in

1693
02:15:10,780 --> 02:15:17,020
the Hunt Valley area. I've seen the project that Mr. Devons has done there up in the Hunt

1694
02:15:17,020 --> 02:15:21,700
Valley Mall. I was there. I lived there the Death Valley Mall days. And see what that's

1695
02:15:21,700 --> 02:15:26,120
done for that community and what's going on up there now. But thank you. That's

1696
02:15:26,120 --> 02:15:26,600
all I have to say.

1697
02:15:26,600 --> 02:15:30,280
Thank you. Our next speaker is Nancy Halford, followed by Robbie Leonard.

1698
02:15:31,640 --> 02:15:32,520
Good afternoon.

1699
02:15:33,340 --> 02:15:36,560
Good afternoon, and thank you for giving me the time to come here and talk today.

1700
02:15:37,060 --> 02:15:40,960
I'm thankful for the information that Will Anderson and Mr. Basu gave.

1701
02:15:41,880 --> 02:15:43,720
And right now I'd like to address Vicki.

1702
02:15:44,400 --> 02:15:48,440
I was around when Foundry Row was starting in your area

1703
02:15:48,440 --> 02:15:51,700
and all the backlash you got from the community.

1704
02:15:51,700 --> 02:15:58,060
and I watch you take such a hit and you stood and you fought for it and now that

1705
02:15:58,060 --> 02:16:04,220
area is thriving and all the people that complained are shopping in those shops

1706
02:16:04,220 --> 02:16:09,280
right now so I thank you for what you did because the Towson Chamber doesn't

1707
02:16:09,280 --> 02:16:13,720
just represent the Towson Chamber we have a group that meets with all the

1708
02:16:13,720 --> 02:16:17,440
chambers from Baltimore County because we want what's best for all of

1709
02:16:17,440 --> 02:16:23,200
Baltimore County and smart growth is important. Our president is here today and he's going

1710
02:16:23,200 --> 02:16:30,260
to speak on behalf of the chamber, but I want to speak as a resident and somebody that lives

1711
02:16:30,260 --> 02:16:36,840
in Towson. I lived on the outskirts of Towson and I lived there for 30 years and I sold

1712
02:16:36,840 --> 02:16:42,540
my house and I moved right into the heart of this community because I believe in it

1713
02:16:42,540 --> 02:16:44,340
and I believe in where it's going.

1714
02:16:44,940 --> 02:16:48,960
I saw where it was 10 years ago, 12 years ago,

1715
02:16:49,400 --> 02:16:51,920
when businesses were flocking out of here.

1716
02:16:52,520 --> 02:16:56,560
I've watched you people and the predecessors before you

1717
02:16:56,560 --> 02:17:01,360
stand up for projects that the community did not want

1718
02:17:01,360 --> 02:17:03,640
and I see them in there today.

1719
02:17:04,280 --> 02:17:06,940
I know people that are in the room here

1720
02:17:07,360 --> 02:17:10,360
that did not want the movie theater coming to say

1721
02:17:10,360 --> 02:17:12,620
how bad it would be for our community.

1722
02:17:13,340 --> 02:17:16,900
And now, I walk the streets of Towson.

1723
02:17:17,080 --> 02:17:19,800
I shouldn't say, I walk the streets because I live here

1724
02:17:20,380 --> 02:17:24,260
and I work here, but I see it at night

1725
02:17:24,760 --> 02:17:27,220
and in the morning and on the weekend

1726
02:17:27,560 --> 02:17:33,220
and I am so proud to see families and grandparents

1727
02:17:33,960 --> 02:17:37,120
filling the restaurants, the movie theaters

1728
02:17:37,120 --> 02:17:39,420
that you guys got backlash on

1729
02:17:39,420 --> 02:17:45,780
that you supported thank God you supported it those movie theaters are

1730
02:17:45,780 --> 02:17:51,720
crowded they're bringing people from all over the county and for the first time

1731
02:17:51,720 --> 02:17:58,120
ever restaurants from the city are leaving the city to come to Towson

1732
02:17:58,120 --> 02:18:03,460
they would never ever have done that before but they believe in where we're

1733
02:18:03,460 --> 02:18:08,860
going they believe in the University being here all these jobs that are

1734
02:18:08,860 --> 02:18:15,420
coming and about the hotel. I want to make sure I'm clear on that. We understand

1735
02:18:15,420 --> 02:18:19,640
Towson University needs more student housing and they have to convert to

1736
02:18:19,640 --> 02:18:26,400
that. We understand but I know we need and we have to have another hotel.

1737
02:18:27,260 --> 02:18:32,180
Stanley Black and Decker is one of the largest employers in the area and

1738
02:18:32,180 --> 02:18:36,120
they're right in the heart of Towson behind the Golden Gates. I didn't like

1739
02:18:36,120 --> 02:18:38,440
to ask for a second because some of our people have left.

1740
02:18:39,600 --> 02:18:43,680
They have 20% of the rooms booked at the Marriott and Towson.

1741
02:18:44,160 --> 02:18:45,880
This Sheraton can't take them.

1742
02:18:46,620 --> 02:18:49,260
Mr. Gibbons, the only thing that I ask you

1743
02:18:49,260 --> 02:18:51,360
is get that hotel going.

1744
02:18:52,080 --> 02:18:53,760
We need this project.

1745
02:18:55,340 --> 02:18:58,160
Councilmen, councilwomen, I'm begging you please.

1746
02:18:58,860 --> 02:19:01,900
Because I am sorry about what happened in Dundalk,

1747
02:19:02,340 --> 02:19:03,480
but I'll tell you something.

1748
02:19:03,480 --> 02:19:06,660
I guarantee you will make things work here in Towson.

1749
02:19:07,000 --> 02:19:07,300
Thank you.

1750
02:19:07,400 --> 02:19:07,940
Thank you, Nancy.

1751
02:19:09,360 --> 02:19:12,700
Nancy, you know, Councilman Mark said something to say.

1752
02:19:12,760 --> 02:19:16,080
I did want to also reiterate what Mr. Gibbons said,

1753
02:19:16,240 --> 02:19:17,500
and I think I heard him correctly,

1754
02:19:18,240 --> 02:19:23,500
is he took over properties where there was $200,000 in taxes

1755
02:19:23,500 --> 02:19:25,560
being paid on the properties he's taken over.

1756
02:19:26,120 --> 02:19:27,340
And now I think those same properties,

1757
02:19:27,500 --> 02:19:28,820
he's paying over $5 million.

1758
02:19:29,140 --> 02:19:30,040
Is that right, Mr. Gibbons?

1759
02:19:30,040 --> 02:19:35,820
So if you want new schools, and you want roads, and you want infrastructure, think about that.

1760
02:19:36,260 --> 02:19:40,900
Two hundred thousand in property taxes, now five million. That's not bad.

1761
02:19:41,160 --> 02:19:43,500
Councilman Marks? Councilman Marks?

1762
02:19:43,660 --> 02:19:45,920
I just want to thank the Chamber for the leadership it showed.

1763
02:19:46,380 --> 02:19:50,740
If you come in here any night, it is amazing the difference between now and 2010.

1764
02:19:51,180 --> 02:19:57,180
In 2010, where the genos was, we had a derelict genos at York and Washington,

1765
02:19:57,180 --> 02:19:59,400
and that's now the flats at 703.

1766
02:19:59,580 --> 02:20:00,820
It's over 70% occupied.

1767
02:20:01,540 --> 02:20:04,380
We had an abandoned Burger King where the movie theater is.

1768
02:20:04,760 --> 02:20:06,220
Towson Commons was emptying out.

1769
02:20:06,320 --> 02:20:07,360
The movie theater was closing.

1770
02:20:07,820 --> 02:20:10,200
All around Towson we have incredible signs of life

1771
02:20:10,200 --> 02:20:11,920
and you've been a big part of that, so thank you.

1772
02:20:14,490 --> 02:20:14,970
All righty.

1773
02:20:15,150 --> 02:20:17,090
Mr. Chairman, can I just make one comment?

1774
02:20:17,630 --> 02:20:20,070
I just wanted to say that the money here

1775
02:20:20,530 --> 02:20:22,250
that we are using for this project

1776
02:20:22,250 --> 02:20:24,750
can't go anywhere else because it's a tax credit.

1777
02:20:25,510 --> 02:20:26,290
It's simple.

1778
02:20:27,570 --> 02:20:33,030
Our next speaker is Robbie Leonard, followed by Tim Bujanowski.

1779
02:20:33,330 --> 02:20:33,730
Thank you.

1780
02:20:34,030 --> 02:20:34,730
Councilman Naumann.

1781
02:20:36,170 --> 02:20:36,730
Good.

1782
02:20:37,030 --> 02:20:38,210
Almost evening, Mr. Leonard.

1783
02:20:39,070 --> 02:20:41,530
Good evening, Mr. Chairman and the Council.

1784
02:20:41,750 --> 02:20:42,790
Thank you very much for your time.

1785
02:20:44,170 --> 02:20:50,070
First off, I am a Senate candidate for District 42, which includes Downtown Towson.

1786
02:20:50,550 --> 02:20:51,890
I'm pro redevelopment.

1787
02:20:51,890 --> 02:20:56,930
I grew up in this district when I was a kid going to the movies at Towson

1788
02:20:56,930 --> 02:21:01,810
Commons, eating at mommy, Lardos, shopping at boarders. I want to see Towson

1789
02:21:01,810 --> 02:21:07,570
return to vibrance. It's important, we've heard other people talk about it,

1790
02:21:07,710 --> 02:21:12,430
Anibon, Basu, others, that families like my young family like we'll hear from

1791
02:21:12,430 --> 02:21:16,830
Tim Bojanowski next, you know we're raising our kids in this district. We

1792
02:21:16,830 --> 02:21:20,950
chose between Howard County, Montgomery County, folks are moving to Northern

1793
02:21:20,950 --> 02:21:27,310
Virginia for jobs and opportunities. So I'd like people to choose here. Now this

1794
02:21:27,310 --> 02:21:31,370
project and other Towson Development projects have created some controversy.

1795
02:21:32,150 --> 02:21:36,450
It's raised a lot of questions about campaign finance contributions and how

1796
02:21:36,450 --> 02:21:41,110
those contributions may benefit certain donors. It's triggered a lot of media

1797
02:21:41,110 --> 02:21:44,990
attention from some of the folks covering today's hearing. I've seen a

1798
02:21:44,990 --> 02:21:49,230
lot of social media commentary and this has been a very popular subject as I

1799
02:21:49,230 --> 02:21:55,030
go door-to-door talking to voters in District 42. Now the developers found out

1800
02:21:55,030 --> 02:21:57,870
that there were some unintended consequences when they started this

1801
02:21:59,630 --> 02:22:06,250
contract but I think that we can find a benefit that wasn't here maybe a year or

1802
02:22:06,250 --> 02:22:11,290
two ago or five years ago. I think that's time for us to talk about campaign

1803
02:22:11,290 --> 02:22:14,990
finance reform. I think that this could be the benefit that comes out of the

1804
02:22:14,990 --> 02:22:19,950
situation. Look at Montgomery County and Howard County. They're moving towards

1805
02:22:19,950 --> 02:22:24,390
public financing for their council members and county executive. We don't

1806
02:22:24,390 --> 02:22:29,210
have that here. It's not a partisan issue. Governor Larry Hogan took campaign

1807
02:22:29,210 --> 02:22:33,190
financing, public financing, the first gubernatorial candidate elected using

1808
02:22:33,190 --> 02:22:37,210
public financing and we see a Democratic candidate announcing that he'll be

1809
02:22:37,210 --> 02:22:41,730
taking public financing as well. This is something that we can do to restore

1810
02:22:41,730 --> 02:22:46,490
public trust in our institutions where people believe in transparency. I saw a

1811
02:22:46,490 --> 02:22:50,430
sign for transparency in the back of the room. My councilman Wade Catch

1812
02:22:50,430 --> 02:22:54,450
announced his re-election campaign yesterday and the email blast talked

1813
02:22:54,450 --> 02:23:00,090
about restoring transparency in our government. That's what public campaign

1814
02:23:00,090 --> 02:23:05,750
financing will do. So I think that if we are like Howard County, put it up to

1815
02:23:05,750 --> 02:23:10,430
the voters. Let's put it on the ballot, let the voters decide if the

1816
02:23:10,430 --> 02:23:15,030
voters have the appetite for fair, public finance elections.

1817
02:23:15,750 --> 02:23:17,330
So we know where the money's coming from.

1818
02:23:17,650 --> 02:23:18,570
And I thank you for your time.

1819
02:23:19,510 --> 02:23:22,550
Our next speaker is Tim Bojanowski,

1820
02:23:22,750 --> 02:23:25,970
followed by Brenda Bodine.

1821
02:23:28,980 --> 02:23:31,720
And good afternoon, almost evening, Tim.

1822
02:23:32,280 --> 02:23:33,420
Good evening, Mr. Quirk.

1823
02:23:33,600 --> 02:23:34,420
Thank you for having me.

1824
02:23:35,340 --> 02:23:37,220
I'm the president of the 1,000 Chamber of Commerce.

1825
02:23:37,360 --> 02:23:38,480
And in this role, I've had the privilege

1826
02:23:38,480 --> 02:23:41,140
of speaking with hundreds upon hundreds of both residents

1827
02:23:41,140 --> 02:24:02,680
and businesses in the Towson community many of them share the sentiment with me that it's slightly embarrassing to think that we would be rejecting what is the biggest investment of public and private dollars into downtown Towson at a time where our neighbors in Baltimore City struggle with such dire times of the lack there of investment and the impact that's had both in our systems in our programs in the city.

1828
02:24:02,680 --> 02:24:08,720
Towson has what's probably the greatest opportunity in generations to serve as an

1829
02:24:08,720 --> 02:24:12,340
engine for all of Baltimore County and that's because there's an explosion of

1830
02:24:12,340 --> 02:24:16,760
population that's going to occur as my peers and other millennials look to leave

1831
02:24:16,760 --> 02:24:20,480
downtown Baltimore City as they realize around them that the

1832
02:24:20,480 --> 02:24:23,390
infrastructure will not support the young families that they're growing and

1833
02:24:23,860 --> 02:24:26,500
for years what people have done is they look to the surrounding school

1834
02:24:26,500 --> 02:24:29,760
system they've looked at Baltimore County Public Schools and seen what a

1835
02:24:29,760 --> 02:24:34,780
power that it can be in forms of transforming the children that are there.

1836
02:24:35,640 --> 02:24:38,900
If we're looking to continue to make these investments, as Mr. Quirk you've said a couple

1837
02:24:38,900 --> 02:24:42,100
of different times, we have to reconcile that we're going to need to do one of two

1838
02:24:42,100 --> 02:24:42,380
things.

1839
02:24:42,580 --> 02:24:44,580
Either raise taxes or cut resources.

1840
02:24:44,940 --> 02:24:49,020
The third option being things like what Mr. Gibbons has proposed and making incredible

1841
02:24:49,020 --> 02:24:53,080
investments into our community that will economically provide opportunities for us

1842
02:24:53,080 --> 02:24:54,220
for decades to come.

1843
02:24:54,800 --> 02:24:58,740
That being said, I think that it truly is Towson's time.

1844
02:24:58,740 --> 02:25:06,100
I think that also we are still in an uphill battle the difference in downtown Towson between vibrant and vacant is often

1845
02:25:06,100 --> 02:25:11,840
Only a couple hundred yards the Towson Chamber does an incredible amount of work with an incredible set of volunteers

1846
02:25:11,840 --> 02:25:17,540
But a very limited budget a budget that oftentimes is probably less than many employees in Baltimore County

1847
02:25:17,540 --> 02:25:21,820
And in order to actually cultivate this growth what we're going to need is businesses

1848
02:25:21,820 --> 02:25:26,600
And this project is to bring businesses and to bring activity that we so desperately need

1849
02:25:27,220 --> 02:25:30,880
Baltimore County will benefit across the board from this, not just Towson.

1850
02:25:31,340 --> 02:25:34,680
Just like the redevelopment of the Inner Harbor did for Baltimore City,

1851
02:25:35,060 --> 02:25:38,320
it takes strong private and public partnership to make these things work,

1852
02:25:38,440 --> 02:25:43,140
and I commend you for thinking ahead, because if we had done that decades ago with other programs

1853
02:25:43,140 --> 02:25:46,900
that were designed to build things for generations to come, we wouldn't be looking

1854
02:25:46,900 --> 02:25:51,440
at some of these tough fiscal decisions as it pertains to roads, as it pertains to schools,

1855
02:25:51,580 --> 02:25:54,900
and to other dynamics. So I hope that you would consider

1856
02:25:54,900 --> 02:25:59,000
the mindset of the business community as we continue to look for support and

1857
02:25:59,000 --> 02:26:02,440
bringing additional resources into what we truly believe can be the engine for

1858
02:26:02,440 --> 02:26:05,160
all of our county in Towson that will spill out in the surrounding

1859
02:26:05,160 --> 02:26:08,540
neighborhoods and help to grow additional towns. Thank you Mr. Chairman. Thank you

1860
02:26:08,540 --> 02:26:14,200
Councilman. Quick question. Does the Chamber support a transportation

1861
02:26:14,780 --> 02:26:21,780
system in Towson to connect Towson University, the Towson Row and Towson

1862
02:26:21,780 --> 02:26:27,860
town mall and our mission as the Towson chamber is very simple. We support anything that contributes

1863
02:26:27,860 --> 02:26:32,720
to the vitality of businesses in Towson and I believe that there's tremendous need for

1864
02:26:32,720 --> 02:26:36,820
supporting our transportation infrastructure in Baltimore County and anything that we

1865
02:26:36,820 --> 02:26:40,260
can do to lend our support to how that would help to improve the business climate in

1866
02:26:40,260 --> 02:26:45,340
Towson. I believe that our board would be unanimously in approval of how critical would

1867
02:26:45,340 --> 02:26:51,940
Would a transportation system for Towson be to this project or mall, et cetera?

1868
02:26:51,940 --> 02:26:56,360
I do believe that the placemaking strategies that have been discussed, both from the side

1869
02:26:56,360 --> 02:27:00,000
that has been Towson University's focus and certainly the tremendous work of Will Anderson

1870
02:27:00,000 --> 02:27:03,580
and Baltimore County Economic Development, has suggested that we are going to need

1871
02:27:03,580 --> 02:27:04,700
additional stepping stones.

1872
02:27:05,160 --> 02:27:08,340
And I believe that a lot of people share the vision that I have and that many other

1873
02:27:08,340 --> 02:27:12,660
people in Towson have said is that Washington Avenue can serve as a main street for

1874
02:27:12,660 --> 02:27:15,920
Towson is starting to recruit what would be some of the interests that would lend

1875
02:27:15,920 --> 02:27:19,280
lend support to bringing in additional dynamics for how we would think about

1876
02:27:19,280 --> 02:27:23,660
parking how we would think about public transit but realistically in order to do

1877
02:27:23,660 --> 02:27:28,000
that we need to make sure that there is a central place that can look to change

1878
02:27:28,000 --> 02:27:31,520
what has become outdated systems we've had tremendous growth in downtown

1879
02:27:31,520 --> 02:27:35,700
Towson but as you walk into the buildings of downtown Towson many of

1880
02:27:35,700 --> 02:27:38,660
them have been survived but what is the blessing and the curse of the

1881
02:27:38,660 --> 02:27:41,520
of our local legal community and our local government.

1882
02:27:42,100 --> 02:27:44,300
Oftentimes these businesses are mostly recession proof.

1883
02:27:44,780 --> 02:27:47,340
There are not a lot of companies like mine in downtown Towson.

1884
02:27:47,480 --> 02:27:51,980
As a staff of 15, we are probably the largest digital company in downtown Towson.

1885
02:27:52,340 --> 02:27:54,700
You have companies in Hunt Valley that are 60 to 100 people.

1886
02:27:54,820 --> 02:27:57,200
You have people downtown that are 150 people large.

1887
02:27:57,660 --> 02:28:00,700
There is an appetite for these types of businesses in Towson,

1888
02:28:00,920 --> 02:28:01,880
but it's too expensive.

1889
02:28:02,100 --> 02:28:04,600
So programs like this and the project that is Towson Row

1890
02:28:04,600 --> 02:28:07,300
can lend support to then providing those monitored spaces

1891
02:28:07,300 --> 02:28:11,060
that will help to recruit the people that they can continue to fill out those businesses

1892
02:28:11,060 --> 02:28:14,100
and to fill out those buildings, but will take that catalyst.

1893
02:28:14,680 --> 02:28:16,560
Towson Row has been this catalyst without even going up.

1894
02:28:16,800 --> 02:28:20,800
Towson Commons, you speak to the owners there, they looked at the opportunity that was Towson Row

1895
02:28:20,800 --> 02:28:22,740
to be close to it, which has helped to create that retail.

1896
02:28:23,240 --> 02:28:25,800
All the beds that continue to go up in these new developments,

1897
02:28:26,260 --> 02:28:29,940
they're looking at Towson Row and they continue development that has been Towson,

1898
02:28:30,320 --> 02:28:32,160
but we need the businesses to fill those beds.

1899
02:28:32,380 --> 02:28:34,780
We need the businesses to then shop in those restaurants,

1900
02:28:34,780 --> 02:28:40,620
And Towson road will be one of the biggest catalysts for that by every definition of what we've provided in terms of reports and

1901
02:28:40,620 --> 02:28:44,820
Councilman marks. I know you wanted to say something. Yeah, I had to answer a councilman catch this point

1902
02:28:44,820 --> 02:28:48,080
Governor Hogan provided planning money for a Towson circulator

1903
02:28:48,080 --> 02:28:52,200
We put together a committee and the Chamber was an active part of that. We thank you for supporting that

1904
02:28:52,200 --> 02:28:55,380
And I did want to note for the record in addition to chamber

1905
02:28:55,380 --> 02:29:00,700
I know that the greater Towson committee also circulated a letter in support of this project as well

1906
02:29:03,160 --> 02:29:06,060
Okay, okay. Thank you Nancy

1907
02:29:06,320 --> 02:29:13,400
Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate you coming out. Thank you. All right. Our next speaker is Brenda Baudin followed by Dave Batten

1908
02:29:15,420 --> 02:29:20,960
and Miss Baudin, I think you signed up for both fiscal matter one and two, so if you want to...

1909
02:29:20,960 --> 02:29:22,480
I can address both.

1910
02:29:22,680 --> 02:29:23,820
Okay. Thank you.

1911
02:29:24,540 --> 02:29:31,440
I'm Brenda Baudin and I see me before here. I've been in commercial real estate for 32 years in this market

1912
02:29:31,440 --> 02:29:40,080
And I think that the biggest challenge that has been created here is the lack of transparency,

1913
02:29:40,540 --> 02:29:45,680
the lack of time being allotted to the council to actually review the facts,

1914
02:29:46,260 --> 02:29:49,600
to take time to do their own assessment of the risks,

1915
02:29:50,500 --> 02:29:56,980
and to have time to learn from the process that's been going on apparently for months

1916
02:29:56,980 --> 02:29:59,340
without your participation.

1917
02:30:00,000 --> 02:30:06,660
It's really pretty shocking and without participation from other people in the community. That I think

1918
02:30:06,660 --> 02:30:13,500
is the basic problem. It's a credibility problem and I think just as Chairman Quirk asked one

1919
02:30:13,500 --> 02:30:19,200
of the speakers to provide information about what was going on in a group that is concerned

1920
02:30:19,200 --> 02:30:24,720
about this, we are concerned that something's been going on for quite a long time and

1921
02:30:24,720 --> 02:30:31,760
negotiated a very long time without input from the council and the council having independent

1922
02:30:34,500 --> 02:30:38,080
opinions and the chance and the time to do that, which I think is critical.

1923
02:30:38,880 --> 02:30:44,380
There are, I can see that there's some clear possibilities for a way forward and the most

1924
02:30:44,380 --> 02:30:49,060
clear one, which a lot of people have mentioned, is to do it, this is a loan with collateral

1925
02:30:49,060 --> 02:30:56,260
with guarantees. There's nothing like that in here. 16 million from the hotel is a very low risk.

1926
02:30:56,720 --> 02:31:02,000
If the hotel is a very low risk, then there should be other financing, private financing,

1927
02:31:02,100 --> 02:31:06,460
at least for that component, etc., etc. Take the time to look at this.

1928
02:31:07,360 --> 02:31:11,880
I do want to say that there are a lot of holes in the lease for the garage.

1929
02:31:13,680 --> 02:31:18,340
There's no provision for making sure that there's a certain amount of spaces for the public

1930
02:31:18,340 --> 02:31:24,020
to park there, the developer, and it may be an accident that was written that way, but

1931
02:31:24,020 --> 02:31:27,800
it's written so that there are a lot of holes and a lot of things that would become very

1932
02:31:27,800 --> 02:31:33,440
problematic in the community around that garage, and I'd be glad to point them out

1933
02:31:33,440 --> 02:31:35,800
to you at a later date when I have more time than three minutes.

1934
02:31:36,800 --> 02:31:42,100
So I'd just like to say that we really have to think about this being we the people,

1935
02:31:42,100 --> 02:31:48,960
And we the people ask you as our council members to be good stewards of all of our money.

1936
02:31:49,240 --> 02:31:53,480
Make sure that there aren't other ways to finance this.

1937
02:31:53,900 --> 02:31:57,780
Take the time, look at the low risk options first.

1938
02:31:58,500 --> 02:31:59,880
Don't push the administration.

1939
02:32:00,360 --> 02:32:02,940
We the people elected you to represent us.

1940
02:32:03,500 --> 02:32:07,120
We the people want you to take the time.

1941
02:32:07,520 --> 02:32:08,860
There should not be rush.

1942
02:32:08,860 --> 02:32:13,960
This should not be shoved down your throats or you shouldn't have to do that.

1943
02:32:14,180 --> 02:32:18,540
We elected you to provide independent checks and balances.

1944
02:32:18,920 --> 02:32:21,700
That's what these three parts of government are all about.

1945
02:32:22,180 --> 02:32:23,500
We're just not seeing that.

1946
02:32:24,000 --> 02:32:30,240
We're seeing overload of one branch of government not letting you do your job.

1947
02:32:30,580 --> 02:32:36,080
And we elected you and we want you to do a better job and more thorough job and

1948
02:32:36,080 --> 02:32:42,160
look at other options instead of putting at risk the money that the taxpayers are very

1949
02:32:42,160 --> 02:32:48,300
concerned about. We're not against the project, we're against the means of funding it. That's

1950
02:32:48,300 --> 02:32:48,420
all.

1951
02:32:48,900 --> 02:32:57,160
Thank you. Our next speaker is Dave Batten followed by Mary Ellen Pease. Is Dave there? Dave

1952
02:32:57,160 --> 02:33:02,480
Batten? All right, I don't see Dave. Our next speaker is Mary Ellen Pease followed

1953
02:33:02,480 --> 02:33:04,580
by Henry Abrams.

1954
02:33:16,780 --> 02:33:18,680
Good evening and thank you for your patience.

1955
02:33:19,380 --> 02:33:23,520
Thank you. My name is Mary Olimpiz and I live in Towson.

1956
02:33:25,660 --> 02:33:27,600
My sentiments are very similar to

1957
02:33:27,600 --> 02:33:34,780
Ms. Bowden's who were well articulated. But this all goes to trust. The $43 million under

1958
02:33:34,780 --> 02:33:40,520
discussion here today is our taxpayer money. It doesn't belong to the developers who

1959
02:33:40,520 --> 02:33:46,040
who have made six-figure contributions to Kevin Kamenitz, et cetera.

1960
02:33:46,720 --> 02:33:52,920
The $42 million discussed here belongs to the citizens of Baltimore County.

1961
02:33:53,580 --> 02:34:00,980
I have no idea whether this $43 million developer subsidy makes any sense because the Kamenitz

1962
02:34:00,980 --> 02:34:08,400
administration is once again rushing this through to avoid giving us the facts that

1963
02:34:08,400 --> 02:34:08,880
we need.

1964
02:34:08,880 --> 02:34:10,740
So our response is simple.

1965
02:34:11,080 --> 02:34:15,520
The harder they push, the harder the cabinet's administration hides the truth,

1966
02:34:15,700 --> 02:34:18,660
the more dogged we will be in pursuit of the truth.

1967
02:34:19,360 --> 02:34:24,980
This administration wants us to trust them on this $43 million giveaway.

1968
02:34:25,860 --> 02:34:28,020
But one cannot escape the irony.

1969
02:34:28,540 --> 02:34:36,000
How can we trust the same people who secretly maneuvered to illegally destroy 30 protected trees

1970
02:34:36,000 --> 02:34:41,260
and bulldozed buildings at the Towson Gateway site at the other end of Towson.

1971
02:34:42,440 --> 02:34:49,440
The same administration who attempted to justify this secret maneuver of clearing the trees,

1972
02:34:50,420 --> 02:34:56,740
claiming it was desperate, desperate to get the 8 million dollars from the sale for much

1973
02:34:56,740 --> 02:34:58,220
needed county services.

1974
02:34:59,540 --> 02:35:01,320
Well, there is a little irony here.

1975
02:35:01,320 --> 02:35:08,260
How can we trust that the administration who misappropriated $120,000 of our money to help

1976
02:35:08,260 --> 02:35:14,740
a developer who had contributed, ironically, about $120,000 to his campaign?

1977
02:35:15,560 --> 02:35:21,100
Well, if that doesn't speak to the quid pro quo government, I don't know what does.

1978
02:35:21,960 --> 02:35:27,020
How can we trust an administration who holds a hearing on the Towson Gateway Project

1979
02:35:27,020 --> 02:35:33,020
in August and doesn't disclose to us that just a few weeks earlier, they gave the developer

1980
02:35:33,020 --> 02:35:37,580
a free no-strings-attached five-year contract extension.

1981
02:35:39,510 --> 02:35:42,760
And once again, all a closed secret.

1982
02:35:43,300 --> 02:35:50,220
How can we trust you when they say this $43 million subsidy is absolutely necessary

1983
02:35:50,220 --> 02:36:05,380
When Justice Pass Rowe, the Towson Rowe developer, declared in a press release that they had the capital and the expertise to move this forward.

1984
02:36:06,040 --> 02:36:12,260
So I ask you what has changed in that department. You all have forfeited our trust.

1985
02:36:12,260 --> 02:36:19,460
The county government serves the people. We do not serve Kevin Kamenitz or this county council.

1986
02:36:20,140 --> 02:36:26,740
The only way for you all to regain our trust is to be completely truthful and give us the material facts.

1987
02:36:27,460 --> 02:36:40,040
For example, the report that evaluates the risk assessment provides transparency.

1988
02:36:40,040 --> 02:36:45,960
We all want a vibrant Towson, but we want smart development.

1989
02:36:46,700 --> 02:36:49,280
And that will make our community better.

1990
02:36:49,880 --> 02:36:52,480
But first, you have to give us the facts.

1991
02:36:52,960 --> 02:36:54,200
You don't need to table...

1992
02:36:54,820 --> 02:37:01,580
You need now to table this rush, rush $42 million potential giveaway.

1993
02:37:02,340 --> 02:37:04,740
Work on your due diligence homework.

1994
02:37:04,740 --> 02:37:11,360
work, take a couple weeks, take a breath, and earn back our trust by providing transparency

1995
02:37:11,360 --> 02:37:12,900
to these processes.

1996
02:37:13,300 --> 02:37:13,600
Thank you.

1997
02:37:14,180 --> 02:37:14,640
Thank you.

1998
02:37:14,720 --> 02:37:19,860
Our next speaker is Henry Abrams, followed by Nancy Abrams.

1999
02:37:21,340 --> 02:37:21,980
Nancy is not here.

2000
02:37:22,080 --> 02:37:25,300
So our last speaker for the evening is Mr. Henry Abrams.

2001
02:37:25,860 --> 02:37:27,780
And thank you all again for your patience.

2002
02:37:28,020 --> 02:37:30,900
It's been a long work session, but we appreciate you coming out.

2003
02:37:31,600 --> 02:37:33,140
Thank you for letting me have the last work.

2004
02:37:33,140 --> 02:37:38,200
and thank you all for your patience in listening to all this. I have actually

2005
02:37:38,840 --> 02:37:43,160
two concerns. The first concern is that there is an assumption built into this

2006
02:37:43,160 --> 02:37:48,500
proposal that this money is essential, the money from the county is

2007
02:37:48,500 --> 02:37:54,020
essential to make this project happen. That may be true. I don't know that. I

2008
02:37:54,020 --> 02:37:58,620
hope the council is satisfied that without this money this project cannot

2009
02:37:58,620 --> 02:38:04,680
not go forward, and I would only ask in that regard whether the prior developer made a profit

2010
02:38:04,680 --> 02:38:10,460
out of the transfer of this deal to the current developer. I have no idea, and I'm not suggesting

2011
02:38:10,460 --> 02:38:14,680
that that is true. I just think that the council ought to be satisfied on that point.

2012
02:38:15,100 --> 02:38:24,980
The other concern I have is that as I understand the project, the developer is not taking

2013
02:38:24,980 --> 02:38:29,460
any risk with, whatsoever, with respect to the money that the county is putting up.

2014
02:38:30,340 --> 02:38:36,120
If the projections don't prove true, the developer has no responsibility for that.

2015
02:38:36,400 --> 02:38:38,600
There are two concerns I have with respect to that.

2016
02:38:38,740 --> 02:38:42,140
One, you all keep talking about the fact that you're going to get back the money you're

2017
02:38:42,140 --> 02:38:42,740
putting forward.

2018
02:38:43,200 --> 02:38:47,260
But the truth is, given the time value of money, you're not going to get the money

2019
02:38:47,260 --> 02:38:48,380
back that you put forward.

2020
02:38:48,380 --> 02:38:56,920
at least you should get the the value of the 46 million dollars over time 46

2021
02:38:56,920 --> 02:39:01,260
million dollars now or 43 million dollars now and 43 million dollars in 10

2022
02:39:01,260 --> 02:39:11,680
or 15 years simply a loss to the county the other thing is that from my

2023
02:39:11,680 --> 02:39:17,140
perspective as a citizen of the county and I don't I don't object to you

2024
02:39:17,140 --> 02:39:20,780
putting forward the money if it's needed because I think this is a great

2025
02:39:20,780 --> 02:39:26,040
project for the county but I don't understand why the developer doesn't

2026
02:39:26,040 --> 02:39:32,860
guarantee the return of at least the 43 million if there is no interest on that

2027
02:39:32,860 --> 02:39:37,640
money. Shouldn't there be a guarantee? That's it. Thank you. Thank you.

2028
02:39:41,140 --> 02:39:41,780
Thank

2029
02:39:41,780 --> 02:39:49,400
Thank you, Mr. Davis. I guess I wanted to make one comment as we close out because I kept

2030
02:39:49,400 --> 02:39:58,140
hearing everybody talk about the money, and it was almost as if no one heard it. So maybe

2031
02:39:58,140 --> 02:40:07,920
Aunty Mon Bonsoon was too technical. But we're not giving anyone $43 million. They

2032
02:40:07,920 --> 02:40:12,840
are getting $26 million, which they would be entitled to

2033
02:40:12,840 --> 02:40:16,800
because the program has been running for almost 30 years.

2034
02:40:17,520 --> 02:40:20,520
The second part is the $16 million, which

2035
02:40:20,520 --> 02:40:22,400
is monies that they would get.

2036
02:40:22,880 --> 02:40:25,420
The only thing we're doing is sort of priming the pump,

2037
02:40:25,620 --> 02:40:26,840
is giving it to them early.

2038
02:40:27,360 --> 02:40:28,440
They still pay it back.

2039
02:40:29,060 --> 02:40:31,360
So for everybody that keeps running around saying,

2040
02:40:31,420 --> 02:40:35,060
are we giving someone $43 million and $16 million,

2041
02:40:35,060 --> 02:40:40,900
is simply not true and it's almost as if everybody comes here and they listen to

2042
02:40:40,900 --> 02:40:45,140
the experts and then they say well where is the experts what do you know well

2043
02:40:45,140 --> 02:40:49,160
there was the expert sitting there and let me tell you something else one more

2044
02:40:49,160 --> 02:40:54,840
thing before I close out mr. Holman you can say anything you want but here's a

2045
02:40:54,840 --> 02:41:00,860
guy that works probably 70 hours a week looking out for the interest of this

2046
02:41:00,860 --> 02:41:07,360
county. If I come here on a Sunday afternoon this guy is here working. This guy, and he

2047
02:41:07,360 --> 02:41:12,580
says it's a good deal, that's fine enough for me. Not to mention we pay enough money

2048
02:41:12,580 --> 02:41:18,460
for Mr. Sage Policy Group who have facts. And for people to say that there's, you know,

2049
02:41:18,520 --> 02:41:23,180
where's more information, I'll give you my copy if you like it. Here's a, you know,

2050
02:41:23,380 --> 02:41:29,180
I don't know how many pages it is indicating why it is a good transaction for the county.

2051
02:41:29,180 --> 02:41:32,220
But I guess some people don't want to let that change the narrative.

2052
02:41:32,640 --> 02:41:33,960
All right, thank you very much.

2053
02:41:34,480 --> 02:41:38,500
On that note, you know, we're 5'10".

2054
02:41:38,500 --> 02:41:40,920
I did want to say thank you all very much for coming.

2055
02:41:41,420 --> 02:41:48,060
I sincerely appreciate all sides coming out, taking your time, time off of work, come out and speak.

2056
02:41:48,480 --> 02:41:51,200
I think there are a lot of good points and I do appreciate the discussion.

2057
02:41:51,740 --> 02:41:55,640
And I want to wish you all happy holidays and please safe drive home.

2058
02:41:55,720 --> 02:41:56,020
Thank you.