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Remember to speak into, go ahead and turn the mics on and just leave them on.

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Each one of the mics is shared between two seats.

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Just keep in mind you've got to get a little close to the mic to be heard.

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All right, good evening. Called us fourth meeting of the Baltimore County

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Council structure workgroup to order. Thank you all for being here tonight.

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staff

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informed me that they want to look at, or at least present some financial numbers as far as economic impact of what will happen if we do decide to recommend to the council to expand,

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and what that's going to cost from a capital standpoint, from a salary standpoint from all the numbers. So I think that's going to be the major lift for tonight is looking at that.

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that. First thing I want to do is to ask for a motion to approve the December 28th meeting

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minutes. Anybody have a chance to read those?

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We've got a motion. Second. On favor. All right.

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Okay. Thank you. Mr. Chair. Yes, sir. Just thinking of our end goal, a couple things

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we discussed and had a consensus or the report that we're going to put out before the public

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if some of those items that we do reach a consensus on if we could elaborate

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some of the background of why we supported something or why we didn't or how we get it

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that when we come to prepare this stuff,

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we'll be that much further ahead

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than having to go back and retrace our steps.

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What was that discussion about?

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Well, I think that something is very reasonable

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when we did the charter commission five or six years ago,

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something similar happened.

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That staff basically had those to keep us up on task

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where we were supposed to be.

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So I think that's a good idea.

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It's probably going to be a lot easier now than we have.

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I don't know about that.

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Someone leading the group versus kind of all of us chipping in.

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So, yeah, I think it's a good idea.

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Staff, you want to chime in on process on that?

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Yeah.

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And we were, Brad and I were planning on trying to get, you know,

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a skeleton report, a skeleton

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of the draft report together.

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Honestly, I think we were waiting for this meeting before we really kicked that off in

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Just because, you know, at this point we do have a lot of the base research done, so, you know, the findings part of our report, you know, we can start working on it.

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And that will help us kind of narrow down, you know, what are the, I think we all know generally what the questions that you guys are tasked with answering.

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But, yeah, we are going to be working on that in

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the next few meetings.

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We're really going to be that part.

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Is that right?

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That's good.

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All right, so pick up number three.

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We've talked about the survey.

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I know some members have sent in questions.

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Where are we on kind of that process and yelling that down?

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So, Brad and I, we started trying to narrow down the questions, survey questions that you

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guys had, and we quickly realized that we were not experts in this, and there are experts.

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So we called one up.

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We spoke to one of the foremost polling experts in the state about what they consider

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you know, good practices, smart questions, you know, good methods. And to be very blunt,

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she had two basic pieces of advice. Bad data is worse than no data at all, and a bad survey

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is not just useless. It can be actively harmful to public policy discussions. Her

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recommendation was if the choice is an online survey that we put up on our website, or if

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that's our only avenue, she advised us not to do that for a couple of pretty major reasons.

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The first has to do with respondents and the other has to do with questions. So on

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on the respondents issue, with an online poll, there is no way to verify who is answering.

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Even if we ask the name, there's no independent verification. So, you know, these could be

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people from another jurisdiction, it could be someone from out of state. There's also

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no way to guarantee that someone taking the survey is not taking it multiple times.

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The survey platform that we use gives us an IP address, but IP address is change.

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You know, an IP address is a combination of three things.

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Time, the device you got, and the connection to the Internet you're on.

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So your phone here has one IP address.

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When you go home and connect to your home Wi-Fi, that's a different IP address.

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and your iPad has a different IP address from your phone.

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So, and there's also programs that allow you to manually cycle that IP address

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so that someone could literally just sit there and take the survey multiple times.

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So, and so those are kind of the functional problems.

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There's also the science, the polling science problems,

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which is, you really can't save much in survey results if your sample of respondents are not representative.

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And even if we, what she quoted us as a general representative sample is,

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I think it was 7 to 900 respondents.

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And to be brutally honest, I doubt we'd even get half of that.

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And even if we did get up to 900 or 1,000 respondents,

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even if we asked questions about location and, you know,

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racial background and socioeconomic status,

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there's no way to verify that who they're saying they are is correct. When professional

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pollsters go out and do these things, do polls, they gather data from a variety of sources,

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both government and private, to independently verify that who they are calling, who they're

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speaking to is who they think, who they're reporting to be and there's tons of data out

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there to do that but that's an analysis that we just cannot do. We have no capacity to

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do that. So it's very difficult to say anything with the results from a poll without that

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representative nature.

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And to be honest, you know, the people who tend to focus

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on local government, you know, tend to be from the upper end of the economic spectrum, you

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know, tend to be whiter, you know, in race. I just think that we're not going to get a

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representative same.

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The last part has to do with questions. So I gave her the questions

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questions that you all submitted to me and that we looked at at the previous meeting.

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And her conclusion was that the concepts that we were trying to drive at are good concepts,

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but the questions themselves had a lot of flaws. And not only that, the questions

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themselves were biased in different directions, but importantly they were biased in opposite

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directions.

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In another, to put it another way, they kind of revealed the preferences of the people

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who are of the questioners.

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Yeah, and it does take a lot of skill and experience to draft somewhat neutral questions.

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I don't think there's such a thing as a perfect question, but professional pollsters spend

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their life doing.

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is trying to come up with something as close to neutral as they can. And we were not there.

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The problem with push polling or bias questioning is that it tends to be used by advocates on

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And on any side of an issue, or all sides of an issue, to browbeat the questioners.

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In doing the research, you know, to get to this point, I saw an article, you know, from

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early January about the Pittsburgh, it's not the Pittsburgh city mayor, but it's the

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county.

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Allegheny County.

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The Allegading County executive newly sworn in, put out a nine-page poll or survey asking

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for respondents to, you know, tell this new administration what they want to do, you know,

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what kind of public policy they want to see.

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And she was getting a lot of criticism from specifically the Allegading County Council

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that the survey was biased towards liberal agenda items and that it was going to be used

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as justification for the agenda that she was going to do anyway.

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My greatest, and this was not, this was anecdotal because this was one news article I saw, one

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jurisdiction.

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I'm not saying that that's going to happen here, but I do think it's a serious consideration

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that your hard work could be distracted from by an online survey.

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So, just in conclusion, Brad and I, our recommendation is that you do not do an online survey.

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If you are really, truly interested in a survey, the expert we spoke to gave us an idea of

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what it would take to get a scientifically rigorous poll.

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It would be a calling poll, not an online one, and it would cost between $25,000 and $30,000.

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It could be done relatively quickly, you know, within two to three weeks after they started.

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But, you know, so our suggestion is if you are extremely serious about wanting to get

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a survey, don't do an online poll.

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Consider either using the public hearings to get your public input or think about asking

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the County Council, whether they'd be interested in funding a scientific poll.

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My question is, with the scientific poll, what kind of time are we talking about? Because

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I'm looking at the time and strength that we have.

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If it's got, it would be in several steps. The first one is I think you, this group

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has to unanimously say that they want the Council to look into funding it. I think that

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it's not going to help. The Council has to ultimately decide whether they want to expend

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the funds to do that.

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And like I said, 25,000 to 30,000 is the base price.

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It can be done

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within two to three weeks, I would say probably after signing the contract. But I think it's

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a big ask in terms of, you know, money and time.

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And we're going to be having the public meetings, right? And the council people are going

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to help us get the information out, right?

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Yes.

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I think it's it's online. We're able to go in there. People are able to go in there

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And see what we've discussed, what we've come up with, that sort of thing.

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And basically, whatever our recommendation is to the county council, the people are going

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to vote aye or nay. I mean, I don't think this survey is the be all and all. I think that

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people are going to be pretty well versed if they want to be and if they're interested

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did in what we're doing?

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I, as far as the survey is concerned,

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I don't know, I don't know for myself personally, whatever

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information is received from that survey, how much I'm going to use it to base my decisions

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regarding what needs to be done.

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And I'm not going to speak for myself.

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I don't know if anyone was planning to say, okay, I'm going to use a survey and it's going

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to formulate my decisions.

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That's going to change what I'm thinking.

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But I don't need personally feel that any information I'm going to receive from that

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survey is going to make a major impact on what I feel should be done.

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And I'm sort of coming to that same thing is that whatever we put together as a group

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and present, it would be up to the county council to say yay or nay.

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And people will also have the opportunity to comment on what we said, and we had already

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put in the plan that based on some of the comments we received, we might want to modify

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a few of the things that we are presenting to the county council.

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So.

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I guess my feelings are that the survey probably would be less useful given what Adams found

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out from his sources.

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The only thing I am concerned about is I don't want us to be reacting just to the comments

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in the public hearing.

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So, how do we achieve more interaction, maybe weekly putting out a notice on the structure

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web page or other ways to ask people to write in emails, giving us their thoughts about things.

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I just don't want to hang my hat solely on the two or three public meetings.

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The problem with the emails, too, that I saw and I've seen as an elected official is you

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get a lot of cut and paste where it's the same email, you get a group together that wants

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a certain thing done and they'll send that email out to hundreds of people and say, can

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you please send this email?

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I mean, I've gotten them where it doesn't really give you a true idea of what the

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people in your district and you got to remember we're representing a lot of us

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are representing certain districts so even if you did a poll you take 900

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people there's seven districts I mean that's a hundred people per district

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that's not a really good sampling of you know of 125,000 people that the

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councilman represents so you know I agree that I don't know that it and

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it's coming up with a group of questions that we how long would it

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take to come up with a group of questions that we all agree with you

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that are scientifically correct.

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Apparently we're not able to do that.

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So we'll let the polling company do that.

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That's been established, right?

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We're not good at that.

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Anybody else have any comments on this?

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Please feel free.

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I agree. I don't think we need a survey.

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I make a motion that we don't do a survey.

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I'll second it.

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All in favor?

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All right.

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Answer that question.

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all right

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all right so Adam Brad do you guys want to present we're gonna move

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into our presentation

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so just for just for the record we're gonna do a short

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you know, five to ten minute tour of the council offices.

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That way, you know, when we're talking about, you know, possible changes, you know, especially

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costs, we all have an idea of the physical space we're talking about.

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We're not going to take the mics with us, so the recording is going to show, you

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know, five to ten minutes of us not being here, and then we're going to come back.

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All right?

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Yeah, and it's kind of been discretionary.

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I mean, I encourage them to do it.

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Just for the public's benefit, the group just took a tour of the council offices so that

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when we talk about council budget and any renovations that might have to go along with

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possible expansion, the group has an idea of the physical space we're talking about.

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That's pretty much it, and I'm going to pass out the report on financials that we have

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prepared.

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Everyone, this is a report developed by the Office of Government Affairs and Consultation

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with the County Office of Budget and Finance on the estimated fiscal impact for expanding

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the size of the County Council.

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I just want to be clear, these are estimates, not hard and fast final numbers, but these

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These are – this includes operating and capital costs that would be included by changing

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the structure of the council.

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Next slide.

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So obviously, there would be a significant fiscal impact to add more council members

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or districts.

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You know, when you think about the capital budget, there's the office space need.

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We just toured the offices.

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You can see there's some limitations there if you want to add offices for more members.

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There's also the factor of adding district offices around the county.

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Most of the council members do have a district office.

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It's in the district closer to their communities that they represent.

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So that's a factor, too, in coming up with some figures.

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On the operating side, you have to factor in the personnel costs of new members,

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their staff, cars, supplies, and equipment.

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And, again, these figures are estimates.

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They're not finalized costs.

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Next slide.

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So currently when you factor in salaries, benefits, equipment, supplies, things like that, the council's fiscal impact to the operating budget is around $4.9 million.

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That includes salaries for the council members, their district staff, their central staff, their benefits, supplies, that includes laptops, et cetera.

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And just to get perspective on how that fits into the overall budget picture, the county's total general fund is about $2.7 billion.

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Next slide.

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And just to give a benefit, just to talk about the methodology, how we calculated

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the operating impacts, we included salaries of the positions within the council office,

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calculated 50% of that salary for fringe, which would include retirement and health

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benefits, a one-time cost of $3,600 for equipment and supplies, including laptops, cell phones,

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et cetera. There's a one-time cost of $33,000 for a car if a council member elects to

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to have a car. And we can go to the next slide.

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So with a seven-member council, we have about

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$4.7 million in costs, including those benefits. We divided that cost by the seven members

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that we have to kind of pro-rate the cost of central staff, district staff members, and

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get a rate of what it would cost to operate the council. And we come up to around $675,000.

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We can use that to model out what it would cost to expand to nine or 11 members.

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We chose those figures 9 and 11 as those have both been publicly discussed by activists,

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elected officials, and others in the context of the council structure.

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And then in the third column from the left, there's a column just to talk about new cars,

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what that would cost if we added members.

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A new car is $33,000, so that's 66 if we went to nine members, 132,000 if we went

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to 11.

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00:24:21,990 --> 00:24:29,290
So what you're looking at is about $1.4 million to expand for two members, and then another

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$1.4 to go to 11.

254
00:24:31,230 --> 00:24:35,750
So right now it's $4.7 million in operating impacts for a seven-member council.

255
00:24:35,830 --> 00:24:39,490
To go to nine, it would be around 6.1, and 11 would be 7.5.

256
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Again, these are estimates.

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Next slide, please.

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That's right.

259
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Right.

260
00:24:59,780 --> 00:25:00,440
That's correct.

261
00:25:01,340 --> 00:25:06,840
And this slide is to put those numbers into the context of the overall budget picture.

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As stated, the county's general fund is around $2.7 billion.

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In the five-year period from fiscal year 2020 to present, that fund grew from $2.1 billion to $2.7 billion.

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As a share of that general fund, the council's current budget is about 0.17 percent of the general fund.

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That's less than a percentage point.

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using current figures and without projecting future revenues,

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the general fund usually grows.

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But just to use current numbers,

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a nine-member council would have about a 0.22 percent budget share

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and 11 would be about 0.27,

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just to give some context about how it fits into the overall picture.

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Next slide, please.

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Now we begin to get into the capital budget costs.

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So expanding the council would have a greater impact

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on capital budget than the operating budget,

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As we just toward, you know, the council occupies much of the second floor of the historic courthouse

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in Towson.

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This is where they hold offices, have meetings with the public, hold their work in legislative

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sessions.

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We used a $700 per square foot rate to calculate construction for renovation of the space.

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And that includes abatement costs, information technology improvements, furniture costs,

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everything it would take to bring the space to renovate it, to modernize it.

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00:26:24,740 --> 00:26:28,240
And that would come out to around $12 million over four years.

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That includes design, contingency, escalation rates.

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But that's the full picture for what it would cost.

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Brad, real quick, is the $12 million for two members or four members?

287
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:40,800
That would just be for renovation of the space.

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For now, we used a $700 per square foot rate just to calculate what it would cost.

289
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So that's how we arrived at the number.

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whether you divide into 50 or 100, that got it, okay, thank you.

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Next slide, please.

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This is just a slide to talk about district offices.

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As mentioned, many members have offices closer to their community.

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This is something that if the council is expanded and voters approve that on the ballot,

295
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we would probably have to revisit this.

296
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The administration and the council would have to work together to identify how to secure

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and allocate those district offices out in the community.

298
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And we'd have to go from there, I think.

299
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:24,540
There's no funding, but there's numbers on the team.

300
00:27:27,460 --> 00:27:27,900
Sorry?

301
00:27:28,260 --> 00:27:33,460
Have you put their district or their office, like Todd Cramp's in East Point Hall?

302
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:35,800
Do you have those numbers in here?

303
00:27:35,900 --> 00:27:36,380
It's a good question.

304
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:38,220
I'll double check to make sure that they're baked in.

305
00:27:38,700 --> 00:27:40,000
I'll get those numbers for the group.

306
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,080
But not every council person has a district office.

307
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:44,620
Correct.

308
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:45,020
It's correct.

309
00:27:45,380 --> 00:27:45,800
I never do.

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00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:47,380
just just saying

311
00:28:03,350 --> 00:28:08,210
yes

312
00:28:27,090 --> 00:28:30,810
that is correct sorry I didn't have my mic on before

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00:28:52,100 --> 00:28:56,320
that's correct that's what they try to do is find a county of county owned

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00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:00,400
building to put the office in if that's not possible within the district then we

315
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,380
have to look outside of least to lease

316
00:29:25,530 --> 00:29:29,490
there hasn't been any discussion as to

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00:29:29,490 --> 00:29:32,250
where they would put the two to four people.

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00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,200
Offices, yeah, well, no, the district is not a big deal.

319
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,240
I mean, well, the district has to be reconfigured, but here.

320
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:47,860
There's no idea as to room to put.

321
00:29:48,780 --> 00:29:51,400
I mean, I think that has to be part of the consideration.

322
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:52,400
Where are you gonna put them?

323
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,060
And as far as, you know, how are you gonna put them here?

324
00:29:57,380 --> 00:29:59,900
And, you know, that has to all play.

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00:30:01,300 --> 00:30:04,360
You know, whether we're going to do it or not, I think it's important. I mean, you can

326
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:08,180
say, oh, yeah, we're going to add two more people. But if there's not enough room for

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00:30:08,180 --> 00:30:10,900
two more people, what are you going to do with them? You know, you can't put them on the street,

328
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:17,500
you know? So that has, there's no consideration as to where they would put those people yet.

329
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:25,400
I'm sorry.

330
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:31,040
I think that concludes the presentation of this one, in fact, just to reiterate the numbers.

331
00:30:31,660 --> 00:30:34,160
On the operating side, you're looking at about 660 points.

332
00:30:36,900 --> 00:30:43,360
On the capital side, you're looking at around 12 million dollar costs to renovate the council office space as well as the chambers.

333
00:30:44,860 --> 00:30:53,800
And that renovation with that office space, you can reconfigure the office at all levels of office.

334
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:54,600
That's right.

335
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:05,760
I'm sure it was broken down, and what is it, the salary per, one of my questions on the

336
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:10,440
survey was, you know, about adding extra staff to each one of the council people.

337
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,540
You know, instead of adding council people with their complaint, one of the complaints

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00:31:14,540 --> 00:31:18,280
was that it represented a lot of people, which, like I said, when I was in the House

339
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:20,600
of Delegates, we represented the same amount of people.

340
00:31:21,060 --> 00:31:24,640
The senators represented the same, it was almost exact 125,000 people.

341
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:28,180
And we got one part-time person to do,

342
00:31:28,740 --> 00:31:30,160
they've got a lot more than that,

343
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:34,780
but what is the cost to add a per person

344
00:31:34,780 --> 00:31:36,920
to add more staff to the council

345
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,860
instead of adding a whole new council person?

346
00:31:43,060 --> 00:31:44,660
The report includes some figures

347
00:31:44,660 --> 00:31:46,480
that includes the full-time equivalents

348
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:48,500
for legislative needs and legislative legislation.

349
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,040
That includes the total cost for the position categories.

350
00:31:52,040 --> 00:32:01,200
So the council currently has 14 full-time equivalents for legislative aides and three full-time equivalents for legislative assistance.

351
00:32:01,900 --> 00:32:09,620
The aides had equates around $1.9 million, or actually $2.9 in fact, or in the French.

352
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:16,660
Run some numbers real quick.

353
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:18,460
I mean, I can…

354
00:32:18,460 --> 00:32:20,020
You know, I've got calculations on that.

355
00:32:23,340 --> 00:32:26,500
As we were walking around, I raised the issue.

356
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:34,680
The concept of adding positions doesn't have to be limited to this existing space.

357
00:32:35,180 --> 00:32:40,100
There are options in terms of going across the hall, in terms of the council, and then

358
00:32:40,100 --> 00:32:44,400
relocating auditor staff elsewhere.

359
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:51,240
where can officer budget finance do some kind of analysis underneath of that scenario.

360
00:32:52,140 --> 00:33:00,140
Secondly, in terms of the cost, you know, the upfront one-time cost sounds scary, but

361
00:33:00,140 --> 00:33:04,080
it's not going to be done with current cash dollars.

362
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:05,940
That's not how budget would do it.

363
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:07,900
It would be through debt.

364
00:33:07,900 --> 00:33:18,860
And so in terms of giving us an idea on that present value of the debt service on a year

365
00:33:18,860 --> 00:33:24,160
basis to help us understand what that $12 million really is.

366
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:29,920
And thirdly, in terms of the way the council handled for all the years, I was familiar

367
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:36,520
with it, the issue of the assistance, and Tom, maybe you can answer this.

368
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:43,500
It was always the issue that the council received an allotment per council member.

369
00:33:44,020 --> 00:33:46,600
They could hire as, you know, different numbers.

370
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:49,500
They have each one of them has a senior.

371
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:54,740
But then they have different levels of individual people.

372
00:33:55,180 --> 00:34:01,160
My question to you would be, has there been a significant, I don't know for sure, looking

373
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,900
at the number they have for council aid budgeted in FY24.

374
00:34:04,900 --> 00:34:12,700
Has there been any significant increase in the total allocation for those staff in the

375
00:34:12,700 --> 00:34:13,500
last couple of years?

376
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,680
I think an answer to your question, yes, that there has been.

377
00:34:17,340 --> 00:34:24,980
The council has, I think, recognized that, and I think Mr. Patoka's case is a good

378
00:34:24,980 --> 00:34:25,180
one.

379
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:31,340
You know, he has four people working for him now, and, you know, most of the time

380
00:34:31,340 --> 00:34:40,720
previously, you had two, maybe a third, part-time person. And several members now have three

381
00:34:40,720 --> 00:34:46,620
full-time people. Some have two and maybe two part-time or whatever the case may be.

382
00:34:46,860 --> 00:34:54,360
But we have. The allotment, as you know how we do it, we do get one big amount, but

383
00:34:54,700 --> 00:35:00,220
we divided essentially seven ways. And everybody gets exactly the same. And right now,

384
00:35:00,220 --> 00:35:02,780
Now I think the figure is 275, Chris.

385
00:35:05,780 --> 00:35:06,300
That's correct.

386
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:14,100
So it's $275,000 that each council member has to spend on their personnel, which is their

387
00:35:14,100 --> 00:35:18,160
senior council assistant and their legislative aides.

388
00:35:18,900 --> 00:35:24,440
Those are usually the two specific part-time, I mean full-time, and then you have however

389
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,300
many part-time people they deem appropriate.

390
00:35:27,300 --> 00:35:32,720
it. And, you know, not everybody goes up to that 275 because you want to have some will

391
00:35:32,720 --> 00:35:38,080
room to give your people raises and, you know, what not, or hire somebody additionally or

392
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:43,120
have an intern. But that's the allotment. And that's more than what it used to be.

393
00:35:43,340 --> 00:35:50,580
You probably remember. In fact, when I got here in 2011, it was, I think, about 120.

394
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:52,540
So it was, you know, less than half.

395
00:35:52,540 --> 00:36:00,260
And so one of the reasons why I raised that question, the assumption in the analysis here

396
00:36:00,260 --> 00:36:06,960
is whatever the allocation per councilman remains the same when you add additional ones.

397
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:13,380
But one option is, you know, that because there has been this growth, because we did

398
00:36:13,380 --> 00:36:17,960
not have, you know, many council members to spread around the county.

399
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:24,020
And one of the options is the allocation per councilman does not have to be as large as

400
00:36:24,020 --> 00:36:24,800
it is right now.

401
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:31,100
If you're going to increase the number of council members, the amount per council member does

402
00:36:31,100 --> 00:36:32,520
not have to remain stagnant.

403
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:38,700
Yes, but one of the complaints that I've heard from the council people is that the workload,

404
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:41,180
okay, the amount of constituent cases they have.

405
00:36:41,300 --> 00:36:47,520
So if you add two more council people, but take away assistance, then that's not

406
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:52,040
going to change. I mean, that number is still going to be relatively the same because you're

407
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:56,480
adding and subtracting, you know, different people. So it's not going to make a big difference

408
00:36:57,420 --> 00:37:02,000
that, you know, so the complaint may still be there that, you know, there's a lot of

409
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,880
constituent work for the amount of people that they have because you're taking people

410
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:07,460
away from them. I'm sorry.

411
00:37:10,460 --> 00:37:17,500
Okay. I'm sorry. So I mean, that's relative with, you

412
00:37:17,500 --> 00:37:34,700
As far as I see anyway, I mean, when we did it in the legislature, you go from a three man district to a single member district, you know, your number of constituent cases go down, but your number of people also goes down because you're not, you know, you're not, you know, helping each other out.

413
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:46,440
So, I mean, that concern is still going to be there with, and I'm talking about, you know, David Marx is my councilman, you know, about the number of constituent cases that they have per year.

414
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:51,960
year. Their number is relatively equal to what we did in the House of Delegates. I ran

415
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:56,720
the numbers. I called my old legislative assistant. She gave me the numbers versus David's numbers.

416
00:37:57,740 --> 00:38:02,520
His numbers, he has three people. I had one part-time person to do the same work that

417
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:06,980
the council people had three people to do. So, and we still represented the same amount

418
00:38:06,980 --> 00:38:09,900
of people, 125,000 people in each district.

419
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:12,600
Well, excuse me, since we're talking about how

420
00:38:14,900 --> 00:38:15,500
this to be here.

421
00:38:15,500 --> 00:38:16,380
So,

422
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:34,200
thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you all for agreeing to participate in this really

423
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:34,800
important work.

424
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:41,020
I'm Izzy Patoka, and I'm Chair now, recently, and second district council member.

425
00:38:41,500 --> 00:38:44,580
And I just wanted to add something I thought was relevant to the discussion.

426
00:38:46,500 --> 00:38:52,680
Tom Balswick said that he started in 2011, and that was announced 2024.

427
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,540
And what I have noticed in the work that I have done as council member and the work

428
00:38:56,540 --> 00:39:03,580
I've done this kind of work for many, many years, and the volume of work has changed dramatically

429
00:39:03,580 --> 00:39:04,840
because of technology.

430
00:39:05,420 --> 00:39:09,920
And I can tell you that the number of, in terms of just constituent service, let's forget

431
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:14,860
all the other components of the job, or all the other, yeah, all the other components

432
00:39:14,860 --> 00:39:20,000
of the job, for constituent services, the number of portals have changed dramatically.

433
00:39:20,580 --> 00:39:25,000
There's the old school, someone calls on a landline and says there's an issue

434
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:31,000
you, and there's a piece of mail that comes in through the U.S. mail. And more recently,

435
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:38,560
we get an extraordinary volume of emails, an extraordinary volume of texts, an extraordinary

436
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:45,700
volume of Facebook requests, an extraordinary volume of LinkedIn requests. I can tell you

437
00:39:45,700 --> 00:39:51,040
I don't check LinkedIn, and I don't think any of my team members do, but I often get

438
00:39:51,900 --> 00:39:56,480
folks that come up to me and say, hey, you never responded to me. And we're very thorough

439
00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:01,100
about checking every request that comes in. I said, well, how did you do it? I said, well,

440
00:40:01,100 --> 00:40:05,680
I sent you a LinkedIn message. And so I just want to point that out because as you

441
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:12,120
discuss this and as technology will change and allow for greater access to your elected

442
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:17,880
officials, I think that's why the workload will grow irrespective, I believe, of how

443
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:25,020
many council members you have because it'll grow with the level of ways to reach out to

444
00:40:25,020 --> 00:40:29,800
your council member and I think it will only grow more and more as time goes on.

445
00:40:39,530 --> 00:40:47,590
I think it's quality over quantity. For me, it's, for me, I can easily say, and I don't

446
00:40:47,590 --> 00:40:51,710
mean to be disrespectful to any of my colleagues, but I'm really proud of the team. This

447
00:40:51,710 --> 00:40:57,230
This is the second district team here, they're off of work right now, but they're spending

448
00:40:57,230 --> 00:41:02,510
their time here at this hearing or this meeting because they want to understand how they can

449
00:41:02,510 --> 00:41:06,970
best serve and they want to observe the work of the talented groups, talented people

450
00:41:06,970 --> 00:41:07,610
at this table.

451
00:41:11,620 --> 00:41:16,560
When I was suggesting the idea that it wouldn't have to be as much, I wasn't

452
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:20,140
suggesting an absolute option, one for the other.

453
00:41:20,140 --> 00:41:25,980
Right now, in theory, if there is three assistance per council member, then there's 21.

454
00:41:26,940 --> 00:41:30,900
If we're saying we went up four more, then that would take it to 33.

455
00:41:31,300 --> 00:41:33,920
I'm saying you wouldn't need to necessarily take it to 33.

456
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:39,960
You could say that, you know, even if it was two, back to two per councilman, that

457
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:40,720
would be 22.

458
00:41:40,940 --> 00:41:41,620
That would be an increase.

459
00:41:41,940 --> 00:41:45,880
It could be two-and-a-half, because it's a lot of dollars.

460
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:51,180
numbers, what the number of staff people is dependent upon the council person, because

461
00:41:51,180 --> 00:41:56,060
as councilman pointed out, some councilmen will put more emphasis on full-time people

462
00:41:56,060 --> 00:42:00,820
to get better quality or a higher salary person to pay for higher quality.

463
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:07,760
So what I'm saying is it doesn't have to be an exact dollar-for-dollar increase.

464
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:12,340
It could be two-and-a-half, it could be two-and-a-quarter, whatever it is.

465
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:13,520
That's all I'm pointing out.

466
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:17,580
it doesn't have to be an exact dollar-for-dollar matchoff.

467
00:42:17,780 --> 00:42:18,460
At

468
00:42:30,430 --> 00:42:38,150
one of the meetings, there was some concern that in terms of the work we're doing,

469
00:42:38,850 --> 00:42:47,310
that as to whether or not the council will take it seriously in terms of the recommendation,

470
00:42:48,010 --> 00:42:54,210
you know, or, you know, is there already a fate of complete in terms of that issue?

471
00:42:54,210 --> 00:43:02,230
Do you feel that the Council is going to, while examining, make their own decision that they

472
00:43:02,230 --> 00:43:06,810
are going to take seriously the recommendations of this workforce?

473
00:43:07,250 --> 00:43:12,450
In the conversations I've had with my colleagues, it's absolutely that they will take serious

474
00:43:12,450 --> 00:43:14,030
the recommendation of this group.

475
00:43:14,170 --> 00:43:18,250
There was a lot of discussion that went into the formation of the legislation that

476
00:43:18,250 --> 00:43:19,650
created this workgroup.

477
00:43:19,650 --> 00:43:24,570
And so this council that we have right now is a very thoughtful council.

478
00:43:25,170 --> 00:43:34,150
I enjoy working with people that dig in and really take this work seriously and give it, you know, 100 percent of their effort.

479
00:43:34,510 --> 00:43:42,250
And the names you see up here are really extraordinary people that have been, that don't take anything for granted.

480
00:43:42,470 --> 00:43:47,310
So, Keith, I think it's easy to say that they will take the recommendation of this group seriously.

481
00:43:47,310 --> 00:43:54,910
Obviously, everyone really took a great deal of time in selecting their appointment, because

482
00:43:54,910 --> 00:44:01,910
they wanted to make sure that this group would come back with a recommendation that is thoughtful

483
00:44:01,910 --> 00:44:07,430
and that considers the sentiment of people that they engage with.

484
00:44:07,570 --> 00:44:13,250
I can tell you, Sheila Lewis is really a dynamo in the second district.

485
00:44:13,250 --> 00:44:21,290
She understands the dynamics of what's going on, and she knows how to get things done.

486
00:44:21,430 --> 00:44:26,730
And so it was an easy appointment for me to select Sheila because I knew she'd be added value to this group.

487
00:44:28,290 --> 00:44:30,530
I just hope she doesn't run for second district council.

488
00:44:30,990 --> 00:44:34,230
Never. Seriously, never, never, never.

489
00:44:36,810 --> 00:44:46,990
You were here when I think when we, Adam was talking about the pitfalls of electronic survey.

490
00:44:48,240 --> 00:44:58,510
If you have multiple avenues for electronic contacts, do you as doing constituent work

491
00:44:58,510 --> 00:44:58,950
running

492
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:11,440
The same issues Adam discussed about I don't know who this person is or it's being mumbarded

493
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:17,520
by the same e-mail or the same thread.

494
00:45:18,740 --> 00:45:25,420
Well, Jeff, that's a good question. And we talked about this, the group talked about

495
00:45:25,420 --> 00:45:31,640
this in terms of how many staff members do you want? You just want one or two and or do

496
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:37,880
you want, and I have four, probably a greater, a larger number, I guess, Tom, than most of

497
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:38,200
the members?

498
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:38,520
Yes.

499
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:43,620
And so because it's my philosophy of how I want the council office to operate and

500
00:45:43,620 --> 00:45:48,140
my philosophy is I want people touching people. I don't, even though we get an extraordinary

501
00:45:48,140 --> 00:45:53,220
amount of telephone calls, an extraordinary amount of emails, extraordinary amount

502
00:45:53,220 --> 00:45:57,880
of Facebook and all the ways you can touch your council member, I still want to have

503
00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:03,420
that face-to-face operation. And Ms. Lewis can probably tell you that we're in the Villanova

504
00:46:03,420 --> 00:46:09,920
community pretty regularly, whether it's a cleanup or whether it's a community meeting.

505
00:46:10,780 --> 00:46:16,840
But in my philosophy of how to be a good council office is you have to have a person-to-person

506
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:22,080
relationship. And so when somebody calls the office, we usually have that person-to-person

507
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:29,760
relationship. So we know if it's, if it's, we can, we can weigh the severity of the issue

508
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,340
coming in. Does that answer your question?

509
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:41,760
I have one. How many calls do you believe feel that come in that are calls that should

510
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:44,960
be going to the executive part of the Baltimore County?

511
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:48,900
That's a loaded question. Brad, can you turn away for a minute?

512
00:46:53,300 --> 00:46:55,520
Did Brett just get an urgent call?

513
00:46:58,540 --> 00:47:07,900
So it really – so the county council really has no authority to direct an agency.

514
00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:15,140
But yet the constituent request that we get really asks us to direct an agency.

515
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:21,440
And so the way, I can't speak for my colleagues, but I can tell you how we navigate in that

516
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:22,000
environment.

517
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:26,680
And so Justin Soberman is chief of staff.

518
00:47:27,020 --> 00:47:27,780
He's a pit bull.

519
00:47:28,460 --> 00:47:30,500
And he's a beast on constituent services.

520
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:35,280
And the agency's heads have learned that that's his character.

521
00:47:35,740 --> 00:47:39,780
And so they have decided, do they want to deal with Justin once, or do they want

522
00:47:39,780 --> 00:47:41,060
to deal with Emma dozen times?

523
00:47:41,060 --> 00:47:44,600
And now they have learned that once is good enough.

524
00:47:45,540 --> 00:47:52,140
And so, but we don't really have any direct authority to say, hey, DPW clean this storm

525
00:47:52,140 --> 00:47:53,860
drain because water is everywhere.

526
00:47:54,380 --> 00:48:00,460
So we have to kind of, now the executive office can go to the director of DPW and say, you

527
00:48:00,460 --> 00:48:04,480
guys have to do that, but we have to finesse it or figure out another way.

528
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:09,840
My younger staff are learning from Justin and they're going to develop their own

529
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:13,220
methods for making an agency go.

530
00:48:13,860 --> 00:48:16,580
So when I say go, press the button that makes it work.

531
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:25,670
They probably do get calls that would maybe otherwise be more appropriate to go directly

532
00:48:25,670 --> 00:48:29,550
to the administration, but when you're in the constituent services business,

533
00:48:29,830 --> 00:48:33,410
you don't say, well, ma'am, there's a number instead.

534
00:48:33,810 --> 00:48:37,650
So I don't think it's easy to quantify exactly how many they get.

535
00:48:37,650 --> 00:48:46,250
Well, I respect my whole point is we need to do a better job of educating the constituents

536
00:48:46,910 --> 00:48:47,610
where to call.

537
00:48:50,910 --> 00:48:52,310
It's easier said than done.

538
00:48:52,470 --> 00:48:53,190
I know it is.

539
00:48:53,490 --> 00:48:55,430
I mean, but we still have to try.

540
00:48:55,430 --> 00:49:00,530
We get constituent calls, I mean, in the supermarket, and Vicki, you know this, and

541
00:49:00,530 --> 00:49:05,030
John, you probably know this from your days as an elected, you know, when you're

542
00:49:05,030 --> 00:49:08,350
out in the public, your fair game for constituent service.

543
00:49:08,810 --> 00:49:14,030
Talking to Kathy and Vicki and Todd and Mark and trust me.

544
00:49:14,570 --> 00:49:16,430
But starting at the bottom doesn't work,

545
00:49:16,550 --> 00:49:18,390
so you have to go to the top.

546
00:49:18,610 --> 00:49:20,890
You have to call whoever that department had,

547
00:49:21,270 --> 00:49:23,910
whoever DPW, Mr. Low.

548
00:49:24,590 --> 00:49:26,810
DPW is DeAndrea Walker.

549
00:49:27,110 --> 00:49:29,270
That was an Oriental gentleman.

550
00:49:29,530 --> 00:49:32,330
It was like Wooder, like the...

551
00:49:32,330 --> 00:49:33,710
I don't know who it is now, but...

552
00:49:33,710 --> 00:49:36,710
Anyway, we found that you had to go right to them

553
00:49:36,710 --> 00:49:39,890
because it never got done if you started at the bottom,

554
00:49:40,150 --> 00:49:42,870
you know, I mean, everybody kept passing it around, you know,

555
00:49:42,910 --> 00:49:46,750
and blame, and we're the blame, you know,

556
00:49:46,830 --> 00:49:49,090
I had one like you have, I had a pit bull,

557
00:49:49,470 --> 00:49:50,530
you know, they didn't want to talk to Rita,

558
00:49:50,930 --> 00:49:52,810
you know, once there was enough talking to Rita

559
00:49:52,810 --> 00:49:54,670
because she, but she also found

560
00:49:54,670 --> 00:49:56,210
that we had to go to the top, you know,

561
00:49:56,530 --> 00:49:59,090
and we would sometimes call you guys

562
00:49:59,090 --> 00:50:01,770
because we, you know, we would run into a roadblock

563
00:50:01,770 --> 00:50:09,550
And it was a county agency and luckily the council people worked really good with the legislative body, you know

564
00:50:09,550 --> 00:50:14,510
When we when we had a problem, you know, I don't think we ever called the county executives office, you know for anything

565
00:50:14,510 --> 00:50:20,410
We you know, we always went to the council let them be the bad guy. I

566
00:50:20,410 --> 00:50:23,410
Was gonna say though all that is true

567
00:50:23,410 --> 00:50:30,830
But some county executives in the past depending on their temperament wanted everything run through them

568
00:50:31,230 --> 00:50:31,750
That's true.

569
00:50:31,750 --> 00:50:32,070
Fair point.

570
00:50:33,610 --> 00:50:38,150
And I want to say, and Johnny, he's got a good team together.

571
00:50:39,110 --> 00:50:44,390
And to be honest, I go to the executive before I go to the council because it gets done quick.

572
00:50:45,330 --> 00:50:47,810
I'm just, it happens.

573
00:50:49,310 --> 00:50:52,070
County council, I mean, they're just bombarded.

574
00:50:52,450 --> 00:50:53,010
And I know that.

575
00:50:53,130 --> 00:50:56,170
And most of the time, I won't even bother with them because I know it's not their

576
00:50:56,170 --> 00:50:57,010
job to do that.

577
00:50:57,310 --> 00:50:58,890
I'm going to where it needs to go.

578
00:50:58,890 --> 00:51:04,990
And it's my point, we need to start educating constituents to let them know where they should

579
00:51:04,990 --> 00:51:06,490
be calling for their issues.

580
00:51:06,990 --> 00:51:13,810
Well, my only point is the constituent can become schizophrenic because in one administration

581
00:51:13,810 --> 00:51:17,430
it's done a certain way and in another it's done a different way.

582
00:51:17,690 --> 00:51:18,890
Schizophrenic is a good tool.

583
00:51:19,390 --> 00:51:19,530
Yes.

584
00:51:19,890 --> 00:51:21,530
It was just like that from the record.

585
00:51:23,190 --> 00:51:24,130
I like it.

586
00:51:31,100 --> 00:51:37,640
In terms of, Councilman, you probably remember how I've been involved in community association

587
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:43,140
kind of activities one in 40 years and I remember way back when when you were also involved

588
00:51:43,140 --> 00:51:51,580
in there. As you are going out now in terms of compared to those days, do you feel that

589
00:51:51,580 --> 00:51:56,640
you have, and you were talking about sort of like face-to-face kinds of things, the

590
00:51:56,640 --> 00:52:03,540
way you like to do it in constituent services. Do you feel oppressed now to be able to get

591
00:52:03,540 --> 00:52:12,080
out to the different groups' ability to get out like would have been possible many years

592
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:19,640
ago because of the increase in community association, increase of apartment developments

593
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:22,000
and associations related to that.

594
00:52:22,540 --> 00:52:26,640
Is there a more of a demand on your time

595
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:29,900
if you really want to pursue face-to-face kinds of things

596
00:52:30,350 --> 00:52:32,380
for you as a councilman now,

597
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:34,020
then let's say 20 years ago?

598
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:36,140
Well, you know, I've done this kind of work

599
00:52:36,140 --> 00:52:37,780
pretty much my whole life, Keith.

600
00:52:38,940 --> 00:52:40,580
And so I think to me it just seems

601
00:52:40,580 --> 00:52:42,060
the world was slower back then.

602
00:52:42,940 --> 00:52:45,960
And so it's really, you know, our news is rapid,

603
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:49,160
our, the ability to move information

604
00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:56,520
has to be rapid. Otherwise, it's irrelevant. So I think the world has changed. In this part-time

605
00:52:56,520 --> 00:53:00,900
job I have, I'm out every night at a community meeting. I have one after this, the Lockhearn

606
00:53:00,900 --> 00:53:07,380
Improvement Association. And it's all up to the council member. Each of us has their

607
00:53:07,380 --> 00:53:13,680
own style. And I applaud the current council because their styles are very compatible.

608
00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:18,400
And, you know, everyone, as I pointed out earlier, is thoughtful.

609
00:53:21,160 --> 00:53:21,600
Sure.

610
00:53:21,740 --> 00:53:25,460
If I could just say one thing, and I will leave, I want to thank you for giving me a moment

611
00:53:25,460 --> 00:53:25,980
to speak.

612
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:31,060
And I just want to say that we focused on constituent services, but that's just one

613
00:53:31,060 --> 00:53:32,160
component of the job.

614
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:36,820
You know, right now, as Vicki can tell you, we're in CCMP and that's a master

615
00:53:36,820 --> 00:53:37,540
plan.

616
00:53:38,460 --> 00:53:41,640
We hopefully will do something with the adequate public facilities ordinance.

617
00:53:41,640 --> 00:53:47,540
We have a whole agenda of things that are both legislative and things that are routine

618
00:53:47,540 --> 00:53:54,820
and things that are not so routine, but constituent services, you know, if this is 100%, it really

619
00:53:54,820 --> 00:53:58,760
should be about that, but it does take up 50 to 60% of the time.

620
00:53:59,140 --> 00:54:02,080
So again, Mr. Chair, thank you so much for giving me a moment to speak.

621
00:54:02,860 --> 00:54:06,340
I hope that what I, the comments I had were helpful.

622
00:54:06,900 --> 00:54:07,340
Thank you.

623
00:54:08,180 --> 00:54:08,900
Thank you.

624
00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:09,500
Thank you all.

625
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:10,200
Thank you.

626
00:54:10,540 --> 00:54:11,120
Thank you.

627
00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:11,980
A

628
00:54:14,060 --> 00:54:19,640
quick question. Brad, on these numbers, and Councilman Patoka mentioned, I know this

629
00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:26,720
group has talked about it before, did we ever consider part-time to full-time? Because

630
00:54:26,720 --> 00:54:29,980
remember when you and Adam presented some information about different counties and different

631
00:54:29,980 --> 00:54:36,200
jurisdictions, they had full-time council members and things like that. That wasn't

632
00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:41,000
considered in this analysis, right? Like the $1.4 million impact for two additional

633
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:47,880
council members would be, status quo, two part-time council members, right? So, I mean,

634
00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:52,680
I guess we don't have a budgetary impact analysis on full-time because we've never done that before,

635
00:54:53,020 --> 00:54:57,260
but I definitely wanted to bring that up to the workgroup again that, you know, similar to

636
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:01,520
what Keith and John had been talking about. There is definitely more than one way to

637
00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:07,640
view this, right? It could be same amount of council members increase aid money or the pool

638
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:13,140
that they get from the 275 to 350 throwing numbers out there, right? Or it could be keep

639
00:55:13,140 --> 00:55:18,260
the 275 the same but then make the current council members full-time so they would have

640
00:55:18,260 --> 00:55:23,440
additional time and it might increase the diversity in people that run for a council

641
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:27,140
position, right? So, you know, there's only a certain amount of people that can

642
00:55:28,140 --> 00:55:32,980
do this type of work on a part-time salary rather than full-time.

643
00:55:33,580 --> 00:55:38,580
I agree with you. I think that that has a lot to do with it as far as people running,

644
00:55:39,260 --> 00:55:44,260
because I, it's a part-time job. I did it, I think, believe is a full-time job, as Izzy

645
00:55:44,260 --> 00:55:48,980
does. I didn't have another job, but there were others on the council when I was there

646
00:55:48,980 --> 00:55:54,960
that had full-time jobs, really full-time jobs, plus this. So they relied a lot more

647
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:59,800
on their office staff and assistants because of the job that they had. Now, if it

648
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:00,940
We're a full-time job.

649
00:56:01,620 --> 00:56:05,840
I think more people would be inclined to run and to say,

650
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:07,540
yep, this is my job.

651
00:56:07,660 --> 00:56:11,660
But to do this job and another full-time job is pretty hairy.

652
00:56:12,340 --> 00:56:13,240
I really think that.

653
00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:17,800
Then we get into discussion of salary.

654
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:19,340
Right, right.

655
00:56:19,780 --> 00:56:21,940
I mean, I think Prince George is in Montgomery County.

656
00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:25,480
They're up in the $148,000 range,

657
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:26,940
something like that as a full-time job.

658
00:56:27,980 --> 00:56:28,140
Right.

659
00:56:28,700 --> 00:56:29,880
So it would be a huge.

660
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:33,460
huge, and whether some of the council people could do it. I mean, they have other, some

661
00:56:33,460 --> 00:56:38,060
of the council people have other jobs that would they will, are they willing to give up

662
00:56:38,060 --> 00:56:44,680
that job to do this with the chance that they may lose next time, you know, I mean, it's

663
00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:45,300
not guaranteed.

664
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:45,940
Right.

665
00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:53,360
Yes, I thought this, all this, this discussion is very interesting, the tour and everything,

666
00:56:53,360 --> 00:57:00,720
bank, the cost of the renovations, the salaries and that type of thing.

667
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:10,680
And the focus of our objective is whether or not we should expand the Calming Council.

668
00:57:12,160 --> 00:57:21,000
And it's good to know that if we said yes, what that's going to mean, the renovation

669
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:22,780
cost is going to be a one-time cost.

670
00:57:22,780 --> 00:57:27,840
And it was even a note that at some point this might just need to be renovated because

671
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:32,440
it's becoming obsolete, and that might be an appropriate time to do the expansion.

672
00:57:32,620 --> 00:57:39,800
So even though that 12 million is a one-time cost, it does sound something that's doable

673
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:41,980
for what the proposals are.

674
00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:48,880
And then I think about what the focus is that we are going to enable the council

675
00:57:48,880 --> 00:57:56,060
members to have more time to devote to their constituents.

676
00:57:58,690 --> 00:58:02,710
That being the case, does really

677
00:58:02,710 --> 00:58:14,550
the cost of this going to impact the decision or am I going to consider that I feel that

678
00:58:14,550 --> 00:58:22,930
cost is justified to give the citizens of Baltimore County more of what they want and

679
00:58:22,930 --> 00:58:23,430
say they need.

680
00:58:25,750 --> 00:58:33,390
The idea of constituent services, it's questionable that people may be doing it the incorrect

681
00:58:33,390 --> 00:58:42,570
way, but on the other side of that coin, that council person and their staff are able

682
00:58:42,570 --> 00:58:52,010
to understand the needs and the desires of their constituents so that when they sit and

683
00:58:52,010 --> 00:58:57,330
perform their other duties, I'm not going to call them auxiliary duties, but their other

684
00:58:57,330 --> 00:59:06,850
duties that aren't so constituent focused, they are now sitting there making those decisions

685
00:59:06,850 --> 00:59:10,150
organizations knowing what their constituents need.

686
00:59:11,990 --> 00:59:23,830
So that being the case, if the objective is to make that a more, a better enhancement

687
00:59:24,310 --> 00:59:33,070
of the services to the citizens of Baltimore County, then the cost to achieve that might

688
00:59:33,070 --> 00:59:40,530
seem outlandish if I'm talking about renovating my house, but if I'm talking about renovating

689
00:59:41,150 --> 00:59:48,450
the services in the county for ongoing of how long we've had a non-board council, but

690
00:59:48,450 --> 00:59:55,810
since 7, how long we had that swap? Since 57. Right, so I'm talking about this cost

691
00:59:56,710 --> 00:59:59,070
to do that based on

692
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:06,920
On this has worked how much this has been an expansion. Is it justified? Because if the

693
01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:16,000
focus is the constituents need better, they deserve better, then is this associated cost

694
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:20,220
justified? And that's a decision that I'm thinking about there.

695
01:00:51,900 --> 01:01:01,720
Well, you know, I was listening to your presentation, and as we walked through this building, I was

696
01:01:01,720 --> 01:01:07,940
looking at the simple fact, me and the facility person, myself, you know, with this marble

697
01:01:07,940 --> 01:01:16,420
in here. This marble alone, just moving this marble. This $700 square foot is not going

698
01:01:16,420 --> 01:01:16,840
to do it.

699
01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:27,600
I mean, yes, this building is historic. I understand that. But when you think about

700
01:01:27,600 --> 01:01:28,940
putting it in a different space,

701
01:01:31,080 --> 01:01:33,480
you're going to have to move some of this marble. And

702
01:01:33,480 --> 01:01:34,520
this marble isn't cheap.

703
01:01:37,810 --> 01:01:50,470
I was thinking about that issue in terms of to what is the extent of the task for this work

704
01:01:50,470 --> 01:01:50,690
group.

705
01:01:51,270 --> 01:01:59,850
I think it's important for us to incorporate into our report estimates of cost so that the

706
01:01:59,850 --> 01:02:04,630
council can make the decision with that information involved.

707
01:02:04,630 --> 01:02:11,470
We can even comment on the issue of the cost, but I think our task is one of looking at is

708
01:02:11,470 --> 01:02:17,910
it advisable or various reasons to increase or not increase the council size.

709
01:02:18,210 --> 01:02:24,330
That is our task and our focus because, as you know, the fiscal authority is first

710
01:02:24,330 --> 01:02:27,770
in terms of the executive proposing the council resolving that.

711
01:02:28,150 --> 01:02:34,050
We can't make a determination what the fiscal capacity is for the county to afford

712
01:02:34,050 --> 01:02:39,250
to do this. And we don't have to find the money. We don't have to find it. But we do need to make

713
01:02:40,530 --> 01:02:46,270
legitimate recommendation based on what we believe are the needs of the county in terms of

714
01:02:47,510 --> 01:02:54,830
council representation. And then we can include, as I said, so for the public who will read it,

715
01:02:55,110 --> 01:02:59,230
they will be educated to that fact as well as to what costs are involved.

716
01:02:59,230 --> 01:03:08,350
but I don't think it's our task to make a decision based on the ability to pay. That's

717
01:03:08,350 --> 01:03:11,270
beyond our capabilities to make that analysis.

718
01:03:11,610 --> 01:03:16,790
I do think people, though, in our public meetings, the constituents, I think they're going to

719
01:03:16,790 --> 01:03:21,250
be concerned about where's the money coming from. Are you going to raise my taxes? I

720
01:03:21,250 --> 01:03:24,190
mean, I can hear that being the first question. Jeff?

721
01:03:24,190 --> 01:03:35,050
I think I would side with Keith, especially when the numbers that you talk about, if the

722
01:03:35,050 --> 01:03:43,850
council were to go, the percent share of the total's accounting budget is less than 0.3.

723
01:03:45,690 --> 01:03:57,030
And I'm sure if you put the $12 million renovation cost in the perspective of what is the overall

724
01:03:57,030 --> 01:04:00,770
capital budget, it's probably in that same magnitude.

725
01:04:00,770 --> 01:04:15,930
And I think kind of marrying these two that cost, to me, doesn't overwhelm the need for

726
01:04:16,780 --> 01:04:28,670
if you had more and more representation, each council person could spend theoretically some

727
01:04:28,670 --> 01:04:38,490
additional time on policy that may drive a constituent request down because the policy

728
01:04:38,490 --> 01:04:46,730
is addressing some of the constituents' desires or, you know, problems that the residents

729
01:04:46,730 --> 01:04:47,510
are facing.

730
01:04:47,990 --> 01:04:52,050
I think I'm worried, though, that how would we – how will we answer that question,

731
01:04:52,110 --> 01:04:56,210
though, at a public meeting if – yes, she'll –

732
01:04:56,210 --> 01:05:05,390
I think it goes to education. When I sit down and actually think that when it was established

733
01:05:05,390 --> 01:05:13,170
there would be seven council districts in the late 50s with less than half of the present

734
01:05:13,170 --> 01:05:15,730
population, I think most,

735
01:05:18,290 --> 01:05:22,190
I'm not going to talk about the people, I think most reasonable

736
01:05:22,190 --> 01:05:33,230
people understand that it has changed significantly and it's time. And if they also judge that,

737
01:05:34,710 --> 01:05:41,550
how they feel that they are receiving services from their council people, that when they

738
01:05:41,970 --> 01:05:48,650
see legislation, policy or laws or whatever that are put in place and they felt that

739
01:05:48,650 --> 01:05:56,090
their council person did not represent their interest. It kind of hurts because they don't

740
01:05:56,090 --> 01:06:01,370
have the interaction. But given the number of constituents that the individual council

741
01:06:01,370 --> 01:06:07,390
people have, that might be a reason for it that if you want better service, then you're

742
01:06:07,390 --> 01:06:10,250
going to have to give a little bit to get what you want.

743
01:06:10,250 --> 01:06:11,350
Eric?

744
01:06:12,410 --> 01:06:20,390
Keep in mind, however, and we heard this, I think, at the last session that we had that

745
01:06:20,390 --> 01:06:26,950
St. Louis County, Missouri, has greater population than Baltimore County.

746
01:06:27,350 --> 01:06:35,150
Counties roughly 850, St. Louis, Missouri County is over a million, and they have

747
01:06:35,150 --> 01:06:36,410
seven council people.

748
01:06:36,410 --> 01:06:46,790
So it can be done, and maybe the answer is full-time as opposed to part-time.

749
01:06:47,890 --> 01:06:54,350
And there's a lot of variables that are going to be involved in our final determination.

750
01:06:54,770 --> 01:07:00,110
I just hope everybody keeps that there are many ways to skin this cat.

751
01:07:01,190 --> 01:07:01,950
John.

752
01:07:02,470 --> 01:07:02,950
Thank you.

753
01:07:03,650 --> 01:07:07,170
Do we know who brought this forward?

754
01:07:07,410 --> 01:07:12,750
Was it the citizens that brought the idea of going to 9 or 11 council people, or was

755
01:07:12,750 --> 01:07:17,170
it somebody, the administration, or was it the council that brought this forward?

756
01:07:17,290 --> 01:07:18,810
Do we know where it came from?

757
01:07:19,390 --> 01:07:21,330
That is a fascinating question.

758
01:07:28,000 --> 01:07:31,640
It's actually been brought up several times over the decades.

759
01:07:31,640 --> 01:07:36,200
It's the 1978 Charter Review Commission brought it up.

760
01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:43,760
The 2017 Charter Commission that our current chair served on, they brought it up.

761
01:07:45,100 --> 01:07:50,860
There have been different movements in the 90s and 2000s, you know, like citizen led

762
01:07:50,860 --> 01:07:58,020
petitions that were not successful and, you know, and of course the most recent

763
01:07:58,020 --> 01:08:01,040
is the vote for more campaign that's currently going on.

764
01:08:02,020 --> 01:08:05,920
So this is, it's fair to say,

765
01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:07,680
this is a multi-generational question.

766
01:08:08,080 --> 01:08:08,420
Okay.

767
01:08:09,000 --> 01:08:11,560
And one more question, and I looked at the numbers.

768
01:08:12,000 --> 01:08:13,620
It looks like our population in Baltimore

769
01:08:13,620 --> 01:08:15,960
can't even went down from the last census.

770
01:08:16,480 --> 01:08:20,820
So then, you know, the census was what, 21 or 20?

771
01:08:20,920 --> 01:08:21,100
20.

772
01:08:21,300 --> 01:08:21,520
20.

773
01:08:21,840 --> 01:08:27,480
And it's gone down since then, since 2020, right?

774
01:08:27,480 --> 01:08:28,700
So let me, let me,

775
01:08:36,380 --> 01:08:42,120
the 10s years, the census is tasked with actually doing the full head cap.

776
01:08:42,880 --> 01:08:54,060
In between that, they release what I would call unofficial numbers that are using models based on the previous full head cap.

777
01:08:54,780 --> 01:08:59,120
So that's what was released. And they do that, I think, every two years.

778
01:08:59,120 --> 01:09:02,520
So, on the evens, in between the full headcount,

779
01:09:06,610 --> 01:09:08,710
COVID may have played a role in this, but

780
01:09:08,710 --> 01:09:19,690
the difference between the 2018 estimate and the full headcount in 2020, about 7%.

781
01:09:20,450 --> 01:09:21,510
Above or below?

782
01:09:22,790 --> 01:09:28,750
The 2018 estimate of where we would be was below by 7%.

783
01:09:28,750 --> 01:09:29,050
Okay.

784
01:09:29,450 --> 01:09:31,530
So, the actual headcount was greater.

785
01:09:31,530 --> 01:09:32,310
Okay.

786
01:09:36,120 --> 01:09:42,860
COVID may play a role. You know, the headcount starts in April, it started in April of 2020.

787
01:09:44,780 --> 01:09:47,180
You're fully covered by that point. Right.

788
01:09:50,440 --> 01:09:55,140
It's just something to keep in mind. The unofficial numbers

789
01:09:55,140 --> 01:09:56,600
are statistical models.

790
01:09:59,370 --> 01:10:04,010
There's debates about which one is ultimately more accurate. Right. I look at,

791
01:10:04,590 --> 01:10:10,530
and I don't know, a lot of people, I'm a retired police officer, and I look at the numbers for

792
01:10:10,530 --> 01:10:18,450
for police. And they're moving out of the state in droves because of the

793
01:10:18,450 --> 01:10:22,710
tax base because of how much taxes are. I'm sure everybody that owns a house just

794
01:10:22,710 --> 01:10:27,910
got their reassessment or a lot of people didn't saw how much the reassessment huh.

795
01:10:29,170 --> 01:10:33,150
So I mean that that has a lot to do with it but you know COVID may play a

796
01:10:33,150 --> 01:10:36,190
part in it but I I see a lot more people moving out of the state.

797
01:10:36,190 --> 01:11:00,150
Yeah, keep in mind too, you know, a particular group, especially one, you know, like a well represented employee group, like police officers, you know, they're represented very well by FOPs who, you know, are charged with keeping tabs on them in a variety of different ways and life aspects.

798
01:11:00,150 --> 01:11:10,450
So I think that the level of detail that you add is unusually high when you talk about police officers.

799
01:11:11,130 --> 01:11:17,310
When you look at the population in general, the census can only do so much.

800
01:11:18,470 --> 01:11:23,210
And especially if they don't do as much as the local FOP does.

801
01:11:25,260 --> 01:11:27,260
Tracking, right. Tracking the people.

802
01:11:27,260 --> 01:11:34,800
Yeah. Yeah, that's the only basis I can, you know, go off of. And like Ricky said, it

803
01:11:34,800 --> 01:11:41,920
groves. I mean, they're moving, you know, south and droves to a lex tax or Delaware. Delaware

804
01:11:41,920 --> 01:11:45,620
is getting a lot of them because of the tax base and which you have to pay as far as

805
01:11:45,620 --> 01:11:45,940
taxes.

806
01:11:47,280 --> 01:11:47,740
Keith.

807
01:11:48,440 --> 01:11:49,480
Keith and then Sheila.

808
01:11:50,540 --> 01:11:56,080
Yeah, in terms of going back to what the two of you were talking about, in terms of

809
01:11:56,080 --> 01:12:01,500
putting it in perspective and responding. That's why I was asking the question in terms

810
01:12:01,500 --> 01:12:08,080
of what the debt service would be, which is over 30-year period of time. So that puts

811
01:12:08,080 --> 01:12:14,400
that 12 in a better perspective when you're talking about the impact is not 12 million

812
01:12:14,400 --> 01:12:19,940
one time. And people thinking, oh, my taxes are going to go up by 12, just being able

813
01:12:19,940 --> 01:12:26,020
to put in the paid-or-debt service, which likely would not cause an increase in taxes.

814
01:12:26,360 --> 01:12:32,940
I mean, we went 30 years, I know personally, that we went 30 years without a tax increase.

815
01:12:33,240 --> 01:12:35,160
So one does not equate to the other.

816
01:12:35,380 --> 01:12:41,120
The other side of perspective is, as you were sort of pointing out, that it's been

817
01:12:41,120 --> 01:12:50,100
In 65 years that we've lived under this configuration, depending on whether it's nine or 11 council

818
01:12:50,100 --> 01:12:57,560
members, we may be in the next century before we need to make another adjustment in size

819
01:12:58,310 --> 01:13:03,660
so that when you talk about those dollars, it's not even just the 30 years of the

820
01:13:03,660 --> 01:13:04,220
debt service.

821
01:13:04,460 --> 01:13:06,980
It is a longer perspective than that.

822
01:13:07,080 --> 01:13:09,120
We're talking about 75 years.

823
01:13:09,120 --> 01:13:16,540
And then the other part of it would be, well, if we don't do it now, aren't we eventually

824
01:13:16,540 --> 01:13:18,020
going to have to do it?

825
01:13:18,100 --> 01:13:21,760
And then all those costs will still be there, but at a higher price.

826
01:13:22,180 --> 01:13:26,540
So that's why what you're saying is important for people to understand.

827
01:13:27,100 --> 01:13:33,600
The full perspective is not just what's coming out now, but really how long does it take

828
01:13:33,600 --> 01:13:34,440
to pay for it?

829
01:13:34,560 --> 01:13:36,460
But also how long is it good?

830
01:13:36,460 --> 01:13:41,140
that, you know, is it good for just, you know, 10 years, or is it something that's good

831
01:13:41,140 --> 01:13:42,240
for 75 years?

832
01:13:43,420 --> 01:13:50,220
Well, based on what you said, that was what I was going to speak about based on the population

833
01:13:52,990 --> 01:13:53,720
and projections.

834
01:13:55,970 --> 01:14:02,470
And if we're talking about expanding the county council, I didn't want to, as a group

835
01:14:02,470 --> 01:14:08,950
hopefully, expand it to the point that if the population did decrease, we would

836
01:14:08,950 --> 01:14:11,270
have more members than what we need.

837
01:14:12,370 --> 01:14:12,550
So...

838
01:14:12,550 --> 01:14:13,350
Never go backwards.

839
01:14:13,730 --> 01:14:16,450
That's exactly what I was thinking.

840
01:14:17,230 --> 01:14:20,930
That's why I said that's exactly what you can't take it back.

841
01:14:21,390 --> 01:14:24,690
So that would be something given to consideration.

842
01:14:24,950 --> 01:14:28,890
Do we just say, hey, let's go here, or do we say let's go here?

843
01:14:28,910 --> 01:14:34,530
Because at some point, if we do feel that projections will say not necessarily the

844
01:14:34,530 --> 01:14:39,950
county will lose a lot of population, but maybe this as well be our max. Like if we're

845
01:14:39,950 --> 01:14:44,670
looking at the master plan where they're talking about the hurdle for the land development

846
01:14:44,670 --> 01:14:49,470
and maybe they say we want to cap it here because we do want to keep that rural land

847
01:14:49,470 --> 01:14:56,330
and not have it all become suburban or urban, and the population will maybe max out

848
01:14:56,330 --> 01:14:58,930
at this level, then we have all these council

849
01:14:58,930 --> 01:14:59,070
Thanks so much.

850
01:15:06,780 --> 01:15:13,220
So I just wanted to also mention, and I know a few of us have mentioned, you know, potentially

851
01:15:13,220 --> 01:15:19,480
part-time and full-time rather than just expanding the number. I mean, and Councilman Patoka mentioned

852
01:15:19,480 --> 01:15:25,280
too, I mean, there is a thing of quality versus quantity, right? And as part of this workgroup,

853
01:15:25,280 --> 01:15:31,080
we've been talking about increasing the diversity of the council and the representation so that

854
01:15:31,080 --> 01:15:35,160
it more mirrors, you know, the demographics of Baltimore County.

855
01:15:37,300 --> 01:15:38,440
Similar to, you know,

856
01:15:38,520 --> 01:15:41,600
Vicki and I were talking about, I don't think you're going to attract, let's just say,

857
01:15:42,200 --> 01:15:50,120
a younger, more diverse pool of council people if it continues to be a part-time

858
01:15:50,120 --> 01:15:55,280
job just because, you know, similar like you said, and we've seen a lot of our council

859
01:15:55,280 --> 01:16:00,820
people out in our districts late at night, early in the morning, on the weekends, you

860
01:16:00,820 --> 01:16:07,660
know, trying to, you know, give the constituents as much face time as possible. But, you know,

861
01:16:07,880 --> 01:16:12,300
there is another big part of the council person's job, which is not just constituent

862
01:16:12,300 --> 01:16:17,220
services. And I really think that, you know, to put in the correct bills and legislation

863
01:16:17,220 --> 01:16:22,680
and things like that, you know, does require more full-time dedication, and I'm not saying

864
01:16:22,680 --> 01:16:28,660
that the current Council people are not dedicating full-time hours and also potentially some

865
01:16:28,660 --> 01:16:32,040
of them have other full-time jobs or part-time jobs, wherever the case may be.

866
01:16:32,500 --> 01:16:37,400
But I definitely think, as a group, we really need to consider that when we mention our

867
01:16:37,400 --> 01:16:42,280
recommendations because it really is going to have to try to attract different types

868
01:16:42,280 --> 01:16:43,280
of people that run.

869
01:16:43,280 --> 01:16:53,060
I do think a full-time position would attract and be more younger people, that younger

870
01:16:53,060 --> 01:16:58,420
demographic, would look at it in a different light than rather it's just a part-time job.

871
01:16:59,480 --> 01:16:59,540
Yeah.

872
01:16:59,960 --> 01:17:00,060
Keith.

873
01:17:00,620 --> 01:17:07,960
And yet, if you remember, Councilman Bartonfelder, who was a farmer, I mean, because we have

874
01:17:07,960 --> 01:17:15,500
that part-time ability, and others who may have, you know, a salary where if we doubled

875
01:17:15,500 --> 01:17:20,400
it and say, well, you're going to be at 157,000, that's below what I make.

876
01:17:20,840 --> 01:17:26,100
So there's still going to be that issue in terms of that, you know, that concern.

877
01:17:26,520 --> 01:17:33,900
But, you know, I think that what the original framers of the Charter were thinking to allow

878
01:17:33,900 --> 01:17:40,360
for also those people who are going to be, you know, involved and not necessarily that

879
01:17:40,360 --> 01:17:48,580
is their dominant that they still have a connection with the regular council person, county resident

880
01:17:49,460 --> 01:17:55,860
who has a regular kind of job. And so I think, you know, that's part of the consideration

881
01:17:55,860 --> 01:18:00,080
that we and I agree with you in terms of we can give those other things consideration,

882
01:18:00,080 --> 01:18:04,940
But that's the other side of the application for a part-time status.

883
01:18:07,820 --> 01:18:10,760
I thought about the part-time, full-time.

884
01:18:10,880 --> 01:18:16,240
And I also think about the lack of diversity on our county council.

885
01:18:17,420 --> 01:18:22,920
And that's something that the population will have to start dealing with, realistically.

886
01:18:23,660 --> 01:18:24,400
It's about choices.

887
01:18:25,260 --> 01:18:28,720
I mean, the county council lost their new woman.

888
01:18:29,820 --> 01:18:37,120
And it was people knew it. She says she was leaving. And yet there was not one woman out

889
01:18:37,120 --> 01:18:42,080
of the 850-some thousand that said, whether I want to do it full-time or part-time, I'm

890
01:18:42,080 --> 01:18:47,420
going to take that stand. So that's something to be considered, that if people want representation

891
01:18:47,420 --> 01:18:50,180
they're going to have to step up to provide that representation.

892
01:18:50,180 --> 01:19:00,640
The other thing is that if the job is full-time with a significant salary increase, then my

893
01:19:00,640 --> 01:19:04,140
concern is something I talked about earlier, and I'm like, okay, let's put it on the side,

894
01:19:04,900 --> 01:19:05,420
term limits.

895
01:19:06,400 --> 01:19:11,140
That now that I've got this job, I'm going to keep it and keep it and keep it as opposed

896
01:19:11,140 --> 01:19:16,280
to talking about giving people opportunities, that you can be a council person, let's

897
01:19:16,280 --> 01:19:17,440
say, for only three terms.

898
01:19:17,440 --> 01:19:24,360
That means that you're going to have to leave and now here is an opportunity for more another person said

899
01:19:24,360 --> 01:19:29,740
I'm going to do it for maybe two terms or three terms and then you it's not like I stay

900
01:19:29,740 --> 01:19:36,000
But now because I have that limit there will be opportunities for more people to step up and say, okay

901
01:19:36,000 --> 01:19:43,600
It's my turn to take it is my turn to step up because they know that cannot stay there until they decide they want to leave

902
01:19:46,150 --> 01:19:52,170
Again, I think as was mentioned at the last meeting, I'm not sure that the resolution that

903
01:19:52,170 --> 01:19:56,650
was passed by the council has us dealing with term limits at all.

904
01:19:56,970 --> 01:19:57,190
Right.

905
01:19:58,050 --> 01:20:03,070
So I think we need to restrict our comments there.

906
01:20:03,830 --> 01:20:11,010
Relative to the full or part time, another option that we certainly should be discussing

907
01:20:11,010 --> 01:20:18,030
somewhere along the line is the use of full-time committees within the council

908
01:20:18,030 --> 01:20:26,650
and adding staff there which may facilitate constituent responses and

909
01:20:26,650 --> 01:20:34,890
elevate the rapidity of responses to constituents. Keith. I have actually

910
01:20:34,890 --> 01:20:39,010
forgotten what I had wanted to ask before before I responded to Emily and

911
01:20:39,010 --> 01:20:47,390
And that was Ken planning, provide us with some data in terms of the outlook over the

912
01:20:47,390 --> 01:20:56,470
next whatever 20, 30, 40, 50 years, whatever, something that gives us, and Jeff is pulling

913
01:20:56,470 --> 01:21:00,690
out something now that takes it all the way up to 2050.

914
01:21:01,770 --> 01:21:03,070
Do you have anything going beyond?

915
01:21:03,070 --> 01:21:16,070
I think Jeff's got our answer for us from the state data center is 934,520 people divided

916
01:21:16,070 --> 01:21:17,010
by seven years.

917
01:21:18,130 --> 01:21:23,770
But I said going further because, you know, because we wouldn't even have paid off that

918
01:21:23,770 --> 01:21:26,570
service by that by that point in time.

919
01:21:26,570 --> 01:21:34,010
So, you know, if the planning has something of a longer horizon for us to consider in terms

920
01:21:34,010 --> 01:21:34,490
of that.

921
01:21:34,630 --> 01:21:36,470
Thirty years is usually there.

922
01:21:37,730 --> 01:21:38,990
One that you'll publish.

923
01:21:41,390 --> 01:21:43,190
Give me that number one more time.

924
01:21:43,270 --> 01:21:44,070
Anybody else want to?

925
01:21:45,650 --> 01:21:46,770
934-520.

926
01:21:49,790 --> 01:21:50,350
About.

927
01:21:50,730 --> 01:21:51,090
About.

928
01:21:51,350 --> 01:21:52,390
A little higher.

929
01:21:52,870 --> 01:21:54,190
Not a huge increase.

930
01:21:54,450 --> 01:21:54,610
Right.

931
01:21:54,610 --> 01:22:04,560
So one thing I'm still trying to research is go backwards and see what the projection

932
01:22:04,560 --> 01:22:10,300
was at the time of the charter to see how far, how close they were.

933
01:22:10,500 --> 01:22:18,860
What they were thinking, well what they had was a lack of vision of what was happening

934
01:22:18,860 --> 01:22:22,480
in this county in the second half of the 1950s.

935
01:22:22,690 --> 01:22:24,020
It ballooned.

936
01:22:24,020 --> 01:22:24,220
Right.

937
01:22:24,220 --> 01:22:30,240
in the second, and then into the 60s, and then when we started having the issues of people

938
01:22:30,240 --> 01:22:35,520
leaving the cities in 1970s, it's because you can tell it in terms of number of schools,

939
01:22:35,700 --> 01:22:40,420
you're familiar with number of schools, we built all of those schools because we had

940
01:22:40,420 --> 01:22:45,060
a ballooning of our population, and then it slowed down.

941
01:22:45,580 --> 01:22:48,660
So it was an assumption we'd grow a lot faster.

942
01:22:49,360 --> 01:22:52,700
But what you have there, Jeff, is from the state.

943
01:22:52,700 --> 01:23:00,200
And so what I'm asking, does planning, our office of planning, have anything that, even

944
01:23:00,200 --> 01:23:06,160
though they don't have it published, is that do they have some basic planning thoughts

945
01:23:06,160 --> 01:23:08,600
in terms of beyond 1950?

946
01:23:09,320 --> 01:23:20,540
The state usually modifies what the county submits, so it's pretty tight, but we can

947
01:23:20,540 --> 01:23:20,920
get that.

948
01:23:20,920 --> 01:23:21,880
Yeah.

949
01:23:21,940 --> 01:23:22,460
Be interesting.

950
01:23:22,720 --> 01:23:26,420
More and more council people are doing more atoriums on building.

951
01:23:27,860 --> 01:23:28,380
Yes.

952
01:23:30,060 --> 01:23:35,500
I don't know the term for it, but they're expanding one house per acre or whatever.

953
01:23:36,060 --> 01:23:38,860
I know an area down in the Middle River area.

954
01:23:39,360 --> 01:23:43,980
They wanted to put a whole bunch of houses and apartments down by that plant that they

955
01:23:43,980 --> 01:23:45,920
just blew up.

956
01:23:46,500 --> 01:23:46,660
Right.

957
01:23:47,860 --> 01:23:49,000
That's not going to happen.

958
01:23:49,580 --> 01:23:52,800
David says it's not going to happen. He's put, you know, something on, you know,

959
01:23:52,820 --> 01:23:58,020
one paper that's 29 is 20 something. And along Ebenezer Road, along Ebenezer

960
01:23:58,020 --> 01:24:02,840
Road's another area where there's a vacant lot that's probably 25 acres.

961
01:24:03,480 --> 01:24:08,020
475 acres. Is that what it is? And it's just sitting there now because they can't

962
01:24:08,020 --> 01:24:11,420
build on it, you know, I mean. Well, the thing with it is it's still, they're

963
01:24:11,420 --> 01:24:15,620
still filling the den. It's going to be 10 years. No, but they, yeah, but

964
01:24:15,620 --> 01:24:18,480
there's a lot of things, there's a lot of things coming to play. There's some

965
01:24:18,480 --> 01:24:19,500
things happening there.

966
01:24:22,140 --> 01:24:23,340
They're running out of room.

967
01:24:23,940 --> 01:24:28,460
Yeah, true. I think that's true. I think that's probably the only place

968
01:24:28,460 --> 01:24:31,880
where they got and a lot of those are farms that they can't build.

969
01:24:32,480 --> 01:24:38,320
I think that's a good point that are we being built out as much as we possibly

970
01:24:38,320 --> 01:24:46,380
can be with the restrictions on environmental and other factors that

971
01:24:46,380 --> 01:24:53,580
that we're not allowing 40 townhouses on an acre of land in Garrison Forest where an owing

972
01:24:53,580 --> 01:25:00,440
smells, something like that. I mean, I wonder the potential for, I mean, I think there's

973
01:25:00,440 --> 01:25:06,040
always building going to happen, but the potential for these huge, like, owing smells

974
01:25:06,760 --> 01:25:11,820
and white marsh that have built out, you know, is, are there other areas that are

975
01:25:11,820 --> 01:25:13,860
going to be built out like that? Yes.

976
01:25:13,860 --> 01:25:19,420
And I think, you know, part of Keith's question, obviously, we just went through a master plan

977
01:25:19,420 --> 01:25:20,500
2030, right?

978
01:25:20,700 --> 01:25:25,300
And then we're about to enter CZMP, as Councilman Motoka mentioned.

979
01:25:25,500 --> 01:25:31,560
I mean, I definitely think Jeff's numbers reflect that we're not growing at a huge

980
01:25:31,560 --> 01:25:32,840
percentage anymore, right?

981
01:25:32,960 --> 01:25:38,160
We're more like we're at 850,000 about, we're going to be at 930,000 in 2050,

982
01:25:38,480 --> 01:25:38,660
right?

983
01:25:38,980 --> 01:25:39,060
So...

984
01:25:39,060 --> 01:25:39,420
Five years.

985
01:25:39,660 --> 01:25:39,860
Yeah.

986
01:25:39,860 --> 01:25:44,960
Yeah, so it's definitely more smarter growth than just like a giant amount of growth, right,

987
01:25:45,260 --> 01:25:45,340
Vicki?

988
01:25:45,560 --> 01:25:50,120
So it's more, I think, and as Sheila mentioned, it's – I mean, we're kind of – yes,

989
01:25:50,240 --> 01:25:54,000
we can plan a little bit for the future and take some of the projections, but it's more

990
01:25:54,000 --> 01:26:02,140
just at this moment in time with about 850,000 constituents versus in 56 when the original

991
01:26:02,140 --> 01:26:02,940
charter was formed.

992
01:26:03,100 --> 01:26:05,740
Do we really feel like it's a quantity play?

993
01:26:05,920 --> 01:26:09,060
Do we feel like it's a quality play of full-time part-time?

994
01:26:09,060 --> 01:26:13,440
I think that's kind of really what we're trying to focus on right it's like we can't predict

995
01:26:14,040 --> 01:26:20,100
What's gonna happen? I mean if there's another growth spurt or people just mass exodus like we talked about I mean it happens

996
01:26:20,100 --> 01:26:24,060
And we also have a booming pop like a a growing elderly population

997
01:26:24,700 --> 01:26:31,160
Right in the county. So it's like, you know people are aging in place and then they're staying but then you know

998
01:26:31,160 --> 01:26:36,300
Unfortunately if they pass away, are we attracting younger people in those neighborhoods?

999
01:26:36,300 --> 01:26:39,140
the oldest population in the state of Maryland.

1000
01:26:39,320 --> 01:26:39,680
That's right.

1001
01:26:40,000 --> 01:26:41,880
And so that's also part of it too, right?

1002
01:26:41,980 --> 01:26:44,340
So maybe that's part of Jeff's projections.

1003
01:26:45,140 --> 01:26:46,800
It's like, okay, it's a little bit more stagnant growth

1004
01:26:46,800 --> 01:26:48,340
because we have an aging population

1005
01:26:48,340 --> 01:26:51,320
and we really aren't attracting that younger group

1006
01:26:51,320 --> 01:26:53,060
from other parts of the state.

1007
01:26:53,220 --> 01:26:55,400
So I think, you know, as a work group,

1008
01:26:55,460 --> 01:26:58,520
we can only just take the amount of information that we have

1009
01:26:58,520 --> 01:27:00,520
and make the best recommendation.

1010
01:27:04,940 --> 01:27:06,300
Any other discussion?

1011
01:27:10,800 --> 01:27:11,240
Adam?

1012
01:27:11,240 --> 01:27:11,820
This

1013
01:27:33,610 --> 01:27:40,920
is on the 1st of January, the next time we'll be seeing each other over here.

1014
01:27:43,620 --> 01:27:48,820
And then you have our January cleanup, 2nd of January.

1015
01:27:51,660 --> 01:27:54,180
So Brad and I are going

1016
01:27:57,640 --> 01:27:59,420
to start creating the skeletons.

1017
01:28:02,350 --> 01:28:05,110
We can focus right now on where

1018
01:28:07,570 --> 01:28:09,790
you guys do have the central

1019
01:28:12,160 --> 01:28:14,740
questions that you have to answer.

1020
01:28:15,260 --> 01:28:17,040
And I guess we're

1021
01:28:19,410 --> 01:28:20,170
here to help you guys.

1022
01:28:20,170 --> 01:28:30,030
So if there is something that you would like for us, if there is something that would help

1023
01:28:30,030 --> 01:28:32,770
if we could focus down to a set,

1024
01:28:34,830 --> 01:28:41,110
if you would like us to try and do a survey of the group

1025
01:28:41,950 --> 01:28:48,830
on specific questions. However, you guys want to do it so that we can actually, or simply

1026
01:28:48,830 --> 01:28:50,070
We can vote at,

1027
01:28:53,650 --> 01:28:55,930
it's up to the group how we want to proceed.

1028
01:28:56,170 --> 01:29:02,710
That might be a good idea, a survey of, for all of us to, you know, with some questions,

1029
01:29:03,370 --> 01:29:08,070
one there, specific questions, and you put together a number that, you know,

1030
01:29:08,790 --> 01:29:11,930
we've got seven people that want this, but we have three people that want that,

1031
01:29:12,010 --> 01:29:17,810
universes, you know, trying to do a vote on each question at a, I mean,

1032
01:29:17,870 --> 01:29:19,910
eventually we're going to have to get to that, you know, the vote.

1033
01:29:19,910 --> 01:29:26,970
But it might not be a bad idea to put a survey just to see where we stand exactly to see where the group stands as a

1034
01:29:27,570 --> 01:29:28,710
Entire group, you know

1035
01:29:29,730 --> 01:29:31,810
And it might not be a bad idea

1036
01:29:33,590 --> 01:29:38,070
Do we expand the council do do we expand the council by seven do we

1037
01:29:38,070 --> 01:29:43,530
Or two do we expand do we expand the the amount of people a man of staff?

1038
01:29:43,810 --> 01:29:48,830
You know, I mean that those kind of questions and just exactly where we may be

1039
01:29:48,830 --> 01:29:50,750
you know, as far as a group goes.

1040
01:29:51,450 --> 01:29:53,270
I mean, it's just a thought, but...

1041
01:29:53,270 --> 01:29:55,030
I think that's...I like that idea.

1042
01:29:56,230 --> 01:29:58,470
Jill, I would like to...

1043
01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:09,260
I think we can firm up some type of narrative on why this group is existing.

1044
01:30:11,580 --> 01:30:12,140
Did this group

1045
01:30:12,140 --> 01:30:19,080
just get here because the county executive wanted to stave off a referendum drive?

1046
01:30:21,140 --> 01:30:22,680
You'll see what you mean.

1047
01:30:22,680 --> 01:30:32,620
Or was this group here because the county executive looked at the history and realized

1048
01:30:33,260 --> 01:30:39,300
that the 7 was set when the county was less than half of this now.

1049
01:30:39,920 --> 01:30:47,400
And even if the group's recommendations, you know, was to keep it at 7, the reason

1050
01:30:47,400 --> 01:30:53,220
The reason why this started, the genesis of this was because someone said, it's time

1051
01:30:53,220 --> 01:30:58,440
for a look-see, as opposed to we just do it because we're trying to do this.

1052
01:30:58,740 --> 01:31:01,520
But it's a legitimate time for a look-see.

1053
01:31:02,240 --> 01:31:09,460
Now, times have changed, transportation, communications, electronics, vehicles have

1054
01:31:09,460 --> 01:31:15,200
speeded up a lot of those things that took a long time back then that people accepted.

1055
01:31:15,200 --> 01:31:19,380
it. But now people won't set their time, but they don't have to because of technology.

1056
01:31:20,340 --> 01:31:26,780
And the county government has taken advantage of that, and that seven has seemed to work

1057
01:31:27,330 --> 01:31:33,860
because of those changes. But given that we're going forward, is that seven still good enough

1058
01:31:33,860 --> 01:31:42,160
or did the county's act have said, it's time for a look-see? Why? And then we can

1059
01:31:42,160 --> 01:31:45,920
can go from there to say, well, we didn't look seeing these are the things we consider.

1060
01:31:46,060 --> 01:31:51,700
We consider cost. We consider demographics. We consider opportunities for diversity. We

1061
01:31:51,700 --> 01:31:58,060
even looked at other places, although Baltimore County, it was not unique as a county, but

1062
01:31:58,060 --> 01:32:02,800
we are unique as a state because Baltimore County doesn't have any incorporated cities

1063
01:32:02,800 --> 01:32:06,020
in it. So that makes us a little bit different also.

1064
01:32:06,840 --> 01:32:12,740
But it's like, let people know that, you know, there's a legitimate reason for this group

1065
01:32:12,740 --> 01:32:13,300
to exist.

1066
01:32:16,020 --> 01:32:16,400
Yes.

1067
01:32:16,740 --> 01:32:23,260
With that, so, you know, off what Sheila said, so maybe that's part of your draft, right,

1068
01:32:23,460 --> 01:32:26,460
Adam, that you and Brad are working on for us of kind of our recommendation.

1069
01:32:26,700 --> 01:32:30,560
Because eventually, you know, we're going to have to get into some timeline as a

1070
01:32:30,560 --> 01:32:33,160
group where we're done data gathering, right?

1071
01:32:33,780 --> 01:32:36,000
I mean, you guys have been amazing in answering our questions.

1072
01:32:36,000 --> 01:32:40,040
but eventually, we only have until the end of March, so eventually we're going to have

1073
01:32:40,040 --> 01:32:46,480
to shift from data gathering and everybody getting all nerded out on research to, well,

1074
01:32:46,520 --> 01:32:47,320
here's our recommendation.

1075
01:32:47,660 --> 01:32:52,740
So maybe what Sheila is saying with the narrative, that could be part of the draft recommendation

1076
01:32:52,740 --> 01:32:58,320
that comes from the group, and I guess if we kind of see the bones of that draft and

1077
01:32:58,320 --> 01:33:05,360
then maybe everybody kind of gives their first off opinion, like John mentioned,

1078
01:33:05,360 --> 01:33:10,100
that might also get us, well, okay, let's narrow down the data that you guys need because

1079
01:33:10,520 --> 01:33:14,280
a majority of the group thinks, oh, let's just go to nine, or a majority of the group

1080
01:33:14,280 --> 01:33:16,200
thinks, let's just go to full time, right?

1081
01:33:16,580 --> 01:33:21,000
I think like the more consensus we get from everybody, it'll narrow down how much information

1082
01:33:21,000 --> 01:33:25,120
we need, because you guys have been giving us great, broad data, but it's like we

1083
01:33:25,120 --> 01:33:27,060
got to eventually zero in on a recommendation.

1084
01:33:27,060 --> 01:33:34,160
But the recommendation also should have, if it's not unanimous where we're at, I mean,

1085
01:33:34,300 --> 01:33:39,780
are we, I don't know how many people are on the committee here, are we, you know, eight

1086
01:33:39,780 --> 01:33:44,480
to three, are we six to five or, because I think that's going to have a huge difference

1087
01:33:44,480 --> 01:33:49,820
in how the council looks at it also, I mean, if it's unanimous, obviously they're looking

1088
01:33:49,820 --> 01:33:53,880
at it different than if it's six to five, you know, this is what we, the recommendation

1089
01:33:53,880 --> 01:33:57,860
is to increase by seven people and the vote was six to five.

1090
01:33:58,160 --> 01:34:00,800
I think that's important to them, because they're important.

1091
01:34:01,240 --> 01:34:04,560
I mean, as far as when you vote at the end of the day,

1092
01:34:04,620 --> 01:34:05,540
they need to know that.

1093
01:34:05,840 --> 01:34:06,500
And I think that's important.

1094
01:34:07,240 --> 01:34:09,820
As part of the end of the day, you know,

1095
01:34:09,880 --> 01:34:12,560
that draft has to have those numbers in there.

1096
01:34:13,000 --> 01:34:13,220
Keith?

1097
01:34:13,740 --> 01:34:17,500
Yeah, I was going to suggest Adam and Brad,

1098
01:34:18,200 --> 01:34:21,300
and you all can work with the chairman one that,

1099
01:34:21,300 --> 01:34:29,220
And starting at the end, when do you expect to deliver a report and then working in reverse?

1100
01:34:30,060 --> 01:34:34,780
What's the deadline for starting to write that final draft and then working from there?

1101
01:34:35,100 --> 01:34:40,580
When do we need to resolve the key questions that some people have been alluding to?

1102
01:34:41,160 --> 01:34:45,640
So we have – so we'll know – I mean, I've enjoyed this discussion tonight,

1103
01:34:45,640 --> 01:34:52,060
But if we don't put a sense of our deadline in front of us, we can waste a lot of meetings

1104
01:34:52,640 --> 01:34:54,020
talking about a lot of things.

1105
01:34:54,380 --> 01:35:01,320
So it would be good if you all start looking at, from the end to the present, where are

1106
01:35:01,320 --> 01:35:07,460
some of the key dates that we need to hit in order to get this work done by the end

1107
01:35:07,460 --> 01:35:07,880
of March?

1108
01:35:07,880 --> 01:35:10,600
I'm very glad you said that because

1109
01:35:17,870 --> 01:35:18,830
we want to have

1110
01:35:22,640 --> 01:35:25,180
recommendations on the baseline questions,

1111
01:35:25,980 --> 01:35:32,240
big questions, public hearings in the second half of March.

1112
01:35:34,340 --> 01:35:41,880
We want to have those decisions made by our first March meeting to be probably in

1113
01:35:44,310 --> 01:35:44,610
March

1114
01:35:44,610 --> 01:35:44,910
for

1115
01:35:50,380 --> 01:35:54,960
working backwards from there, that means, you know,

1116
01:35:55,320 --> 01:35:58,980
as we start working on a draft, we can give you

1117
01:35:58,980 --> 01:36:03,340
the bones of a draft, probably,

1118
01:36:06,920 --> 01:36:07,480
of January,

1119
01:36:07,720 --> 01:36:08,720
or second January meeting,

1120
01:36:10,920 --> 01:36:11,600
and then in February,

1121
01:36:11,980 --> 01:36:12,120
we can

1122
01:36:14,650 --> 01:36:16,030
put feedback from you guys on

1123
01:36:26,980 --> 01:36:29,540
if the group seem

1124
01:36:29,540 --> 01:36:30,200
to like the idea

1125
01:36:34,840 --> 01:36:42,400
of the next meeting,

1126
01:36:45,280 --> 01:36:45,660
the

1127
01:36:47,710 --> 01:36:48,070
draft.

1128
01:36:56,490 --> 01:37:03,450
So could tonight, I mean, if everyone agrees that we should take a feeling to find out where

1129
01:37:03,450 --> 01:37:11,250
we stand, is it just me tonight to agree to do that and to submit questions that we will

1130
01:37:11,250 --> 01:37:16,330
see in the next couple of days that these are the questions that people want to answer

1131
01:37:16,330 --> 01:37:16,510
to.

1132
01:37:16,610 --> 01:37:17,910
I want to know how many want to.

1133
01:37:18,170 --> 01:37:19,390
I want to know how many want four.

1134
01:37:19,530 --> 01:37:20,610
I want to know how many want six.

1135
01:37:20,610 --> 01:37:23,070
I want to know how many don't want any.

1136
01:37:23,510 --> 01:37:29,610
I want to know, you know, how those type of questions we can submit that would be on the

1137
01:37:29,610 --> 01:37:36,450
survey, then once the survey comes out, we can send it to you guys and then you guys

1138
01:37:36,450 --> 01:37:42,630
would, you know, to do, yeah, and then so that in our next meeting we are seeing the

1139
01:37:42,630 --> 01:37:45,610
results of that survey as opposed to just getting on it.

1140
01:37:45,610 --> 01:37:50,190
I mean, I know there are things I want to know what you think about.

1141
01:37:50,910 --> 01:37:54,930
So I mean, if I'll put the name on it, you know, because it's like, these are the questions

1142
01:37:54,930 --> 01:37:55,810
that people want to know.

1143
01:37:55,970 --> 01:37:56,630
How many want this?

1144
01:37:56,790 --> 01:37:57,750
How many want it this way?

1145
01:37:58,490 --> 01:37:59,590
This is how many want it.

1146
01:37:59,770 --> 01:38:02,290
And then once we come back, we have something to talk about.

1147
01:38:02,530 --> 01:38:02,770
We're

1148
01:38:13,940 --> 01:38:17,640
having back-to-back, we're having 20 seconds as virtual, and then the 29th

1149
01:38:17,640 --> 01:38:18,180
is back here.

1150
01:38:18,460 --> 01:38:18,540
Yes.

1151
01:38:18,960 --> 01:38:19,320
Oh,

1152
01:38:22,920 --> 01:38:23,220
okay.

1153
01:38:23,420 --> 01:38:23,780
Okay.

1154
01:38:24,200 --> 01:38:24,480
Right.

1155
01:38:26,480 --> 01:38:26,960
Okay.

1156
01:38:27,540 --> 01:38:32,240
So when is the announcement going to go out to the public that that on the, that's two

1157
01:38:32,240 --> 01:38:32,500
weeks?

1158
01:38:36,400 --> 01:38:37,360
January 2nd.

1159
01:38:37,860 --> 01:38:39,580
Yeah, that press release is nice.

1160
01:38:40,400 --> 01:38:43,480
I saw the press release, but it's a press release.

1161
01:38:43,780 --> 01:38:52,520
And when we're talking about individual community numbers, it's like they need more than that

1162
01:38:52,520 --> 01:38:57,760
type of press release because unless that press release gets high profile, for example, with

1163
01:38:57,760 --> 01:39:02,060
the news outlets, it's the those.

1164
01:39:02,520 --> 01:39:04,900
Finally, after the first or second paragraph.

1165
01:39:06,560 --> 01:39:07,160
Right.

1166
01:39:08,700 --> 01:39:11,140
Part of that is where we come in.

1167
01:39:13,940 --> 01:39:20,080
Yeah, I've been, I've been asking people to, and, you know, I'm going to get on my

1168
01:39:20,080 --> 01:39:25,300
county council person because they have those they have those contacts to say not

1169
01:39:25,300 --> 01:39:29,720
that much you know hey big letters you know and I can say Councilman Patoka

1170
01:39:29,720 --> 01:39:33,780
does have a newsletter it's a email blast that goes out to all his

1171
01:39:33,780 --> 01:39:41,160
constituents and he did send something out he sent the press release out and I

1172
01:39:41,160 --> 01:39:44,720
sent mine out to the planning board and then they sent it out to like I'm

1173
01:39:44,720 --> 01:39:50,920
I'm saying more of a plain announcement that on the 22nd, this is, you know, we want your input,

1174
01:39:51,320 --> 01:39:55,700
you know, and then put the website or whatever that they can get on.

1175
01:39:55,820 --> 01:39:56,620
Did it go out on the county?

1176
01:39:56,620 --> 01:39:58,200
And that's what I'm...

1177
01:39:58,200 --> 01:39:59,140
The county doesn't have...

1178
01:39:59,140 --> 01:40:00,740
The council doesn't have a person.

1179
01:40:01,040 --> 01:40:02,040
But the county does.

1180
01:40:02,280 --> 01:40:03,660
I think it went out on the county.

1181
01:40:03,880 --> 01:40:04,480
Not yet, right?

1182
01:40:05,020 --> 01:40:07,840
But again, it's a press release and a lot of people don't read freedom.

1183
01:40:07,840 --> 01:40:09,040
You know, I mean like a blurb.

1184
01:40:09,060 --> 01:40:13,720
Like normally the county Facebook is good about blurbing and then like attaching.

1185
01:40:13,720 --> 01:40:17,840
Do you know what I mean they'll like they'll do like a giant or I don't know Brad if you can check on that

1186
01:40:18,700 --> 01:40:24,120
Yeah, I suppose based on what you're saying since we were appointed by specific council people

1187
01:40:24,120 --> 01:40:27,600
That we can go back to them and say can you do a special blast?

1188
01:40:28,220 --> 01:40:33,120
For example council put the okah. He did a special blast for the budget meeting

1189
01:40:33,120 --> 01:40:38,900
I mean it was announced on the county website and went but he did a special blast just to say

1190
01:40:38,900 --> 01:40:42,040
Here's the budget meeting for a district to be there

1191
01:40:42,800 --> 01:40:47,520
And if, since we were appointed by them to represent them, to ask them, we know the press

1192
01:40:47,520 --> 01:40:51,880
release is there, but can you do a special blast so that, you know, everyone knows they

1193
01:40:51,880 --> 01:40:52,100
can do it?

1194
01:40:52,100 --> 01:40:54,040
We also do it, so we hit them two or three times.

1195
01:40:54,300 --> 01:40:54,500
Right.

1196
01:40:56,020 --> 01:40:56,400
Right.

1197
01:40:56,600 --> 01:40:57,700
So we hit them two or three times.

1198
01:40:57,960 --> 01:40:58,100
Yeah.

1199
01:40:59,980 --> 01:41:00,360
And

1200
01:41:08,650 --> 01:41:13,630
we'll know from how many people are going to talk to us, whether it's important to

1201
01:41:13,630 --> 01:41:13,970
them or not.

1202
01:41:14,210 --> 01:41:14,570
Right.

1203
01:41:15,810 --> 01:41:20,710
And the civic councils, the Essex and River Civic Council, we have 20-some community groups

1204
01:41:20,710 --> 01:41:21,270
tomorrow.

1205
01:41:21,790 --> 01:41:25,850
It goes out to all of them and it will be going on their Facebook pages, websites and different

1206
01:41:25,850 --> 01:41:28,870
things and the meetings and everything else.

1207
01:41:29,810 --> 01:41:31,110
It's already being discussed.

1208
01:41:33,070 --> 01:41:33,590
So

1209
01:41:37,620 --> 01:41:39,080
we're heading into debate.

1210
01:41:39,940 --> 01:41:40,740
That's what we're saying.

1211
01:41:54,800 --> 01:42:01,220
I think that is definitely in the purview of this,

1212
01:42:03,980 --> 01:42:06,060
the process of drawing the lines is

1213
01:42:14,990 --> 01:42:15,270
something

1214
01:42:15,270 --> 01:42:15,550
more,

1215
01:42:18,580 --> 01:42:19,340
doing that research.

1216
01:42:20,920 --> 01:42:23,280
The thing that is something I think is that

1217
01:42:26,320 --> 01:42:28,220
it's

1218
01:42:31,610 --> 01:42:32,570
less something I think

1219
01:42:35,580 --> 01:42:36,660
it'll probably

1220
01:42:36,660 --> 01:42:36,860
be.

1221
01:42:41,100 --> 01:42:46,340
But isn't the council the, they're the ones that are, you know, the bottom line?

1222
01:42:46,340 --> 01:42:51,760
I mean, I know when they did the last redistriction, it was done by a group, but then they changed.

1223
01:42:52,080 --> 01:42:55,820
I mean, there was a lot of wheel and a deal going on when you take this area, I'll take

1224
01:42:55,820 --> 01:42:57,780
this area, you take this area, you take that area.

1225
01:42:58,180 --> 01:43:04,360
So even though you put together something, the council is the ultimate bottom line, as

1226
01:43:04,360 --> 01:43:04,900
I said.

1227
01:43:05,120 --> 01:43:08,520
Or spin it and fix it, right, and make it the way they want for their role model.

1228
01:43:14,750 --> 01:43:15,870
Is it the

1229
01:43:24,220 --> 01:43:24,880
next section?

1230
01:43:25,180 --> 01:43:25,180
It

1231
01:43:27,650 --> 01:43:28,630
sounds like these are separately.

1232
01:43:28,770 --> 01:43:31,850
So it has to have five votes to get passed on the council?

1233
01:43:31,850 --> 01:43:32,250
Council.

1234
01:43:32,430 --> 01:43:32,870
Yes.

1235
01:43:33,690 --> 01:43:38,350
I mean, to get whatever we decide, if the council decides that it has to go in, it has to get

1236
01:43:38,350 --> 01:43:41,050
five votes before it goes on, does it go to the people then?

1237
01:43:44,070 --> 01:43:44,510
Keith.

1238
01:43:45,810 --> 01:43:50,830
Along with that, Adam, and I've sort of been waiting to bring it up, since you're bringing

1239
01:43:50,830 --> 01:43:56,670
up the redistricting, there are other areas of the charter that we may need to address

1240
01:43:57,230 --> 01:43:59,590
if we do change the number of councilmen.

1241
01:43:59,590 --> 01:44:08,790
Right now, the planning board is based on a council member per council, and it assumes

1242
01:44:08,790 --> 01:44:11,350
it has the number seven written in the charter.

1243
01:44:11,790 --> 01:44:15,130
If we change the number, that's another charter amendment.

1244
01:44:15,530 --> 01:44:22,310
There are other boards and commissions that specifically say a seven in there.

1245
01:44:22,310 --> 01:44:30,290
So, I think there's four areas that, where it's mentioned, that we'll have to address

1246
01:44:30,870 --> 01:44:38,010
that if, you know, to point out that if you're going to do this, and this is where the planning

1247
01:44:38,010 --> 01:44:40,150
board is a particular institution.

1248
01:44:40,550 --> 01:44:46,650
Right now the planning board has basically eight people from the county executive side

1249
01:44:47,050 --> 01:44:49,370
and seven from the council side.

1250
01:44:49,370 --> 01:44:58,890
So when you add more councilmen and if you add more representative, do you change the number of executive appointees?

1251
01:45:00,000 --> 01:45:08,180
To maintain the balance of power or do you just leave it flat? That is a question that

1252
01:45:08,180 --> 01:45:15,240
is addressed when you can't avoid it that if you say specifically there are seven representatives

1253
01:45:15,240 --> 01:45:21,640
from the council and now you have nine or 11, you have to change that section and then what

1254
01:45:21,640 --> 01:45:26,000
does that do to the planning board and you have to address it. Do you leave the eight

1255
01:45:26,000 --> 01:45:36,880
the same or do you add additional people for the executive representatives to maintain that

1256
01:45:36,880 --> 01:45:38,320
balance there?

1257
01:45:38,680 --> 01:45:42,040
I would like to see that information, I'm glad you brought it up.

1258
01:45:42,340 --> 01:45:47,060
I would like to see that information for you guys to go through whatever documents

1259
01:45:47,060 --> 01:45:54,120
you need to do for the county to determine these will be directly impacted by your decision

1260
01:45:54,120 --> 01:45:56,320
so that we are fully aware of that.

1261
01:45:57,340 --> 01:45:59,460
I think there are a lot more than we know.

1262
01:46:00,080 --> 01:46:00,960
I can send you something.

1263
01:46:01,220 --> 01:46:03,160
It's on the back of the footmore petition.

1264
01:46:03,540 --> 01:46:07,220
And I would like to see that.

1265
01:46:08,680 --> 01:46:12,880
And also the redistricting, it just happened.

1266
01:46:14,160 --> 01:46:16,200
And I'm assuming if it's done,

1267
01:46:16,380 --> 01:46:18,700
it's going to be done with the same process

1268
01:46:18,700 --> 01:46:20,440
because I guess we have the same guidelines.

1269
01:46:20,440 --> 01:46:29,580
And I know I researched that significantly because I submitted a request regarding my community

1270
01:46:29,580 --> 01:46:31,400
to that so I understand that process.

1271
01:46:31,880 --> 01:46:37,740
And if somebody wanted to look it up, it's not long surprisingly, but it is relevant and

1272
01:46:37,740 --> 01:46:42,740
pertinent if someone wants to look it up and see what's really involved in that redistricting

1273
01:46:42,740 --> 01:46:46,760
which is done by different commission that was set by the county council.

1274
01:46:46,760 --> 01:46:51,420
But it is interesting that those, that would happen if we decided to do it differently.

1275
01:46:51,820 --> 01:46:58,780
And I wonder, would the redistricting process be different if we increased the council or

1276
01:46:58,780 --> 01:47:02,340
would the redistricting start from where the districts are now?

1277
01:47:03,740 --> 01:47:09,080
Because there's been so much redistricting over the years that we have divided communities.

1278
01:47:09,520 --> 01:47:14,980
We have done a lot of that that I'm not quite sure was the best way to do it.

1279
01:47:14,980 --> 01:47:18,700
So, are we going to start in a redistricting process?

1280
01:47:19,460 --> 01:47:25,840
Would they start from where everything is now, or would we take a step back and look

1281
01:47:25,840 --> 01:47:30,560
at the county as a whole again, and do redistricting that way,

1282
01:47:52,530 --> 01:47:53,230
increasing?

1283
01:48:03,620 --> 01:48:03,780
Right.

1284
01:48:03,840 --> 01:48:08,900
The Congressional will have to be within five or ten people.

1285
01:48:09,480 --> 01:48:12,920
Legislative has to be within 5,000 or 4,000.

1286
01:48:13,220 --> 01:48:15,820
How much in the Council does it have to be?

1287
01:48:15,820 --> 01:48:17,120
10 percent.

1288
01:48:19,600 --> 01:48:22,520
That actually is a big thing.

1289
01:48:23,100 --> 01:48:25,560
Artels and Todd Crandall has a large.

1290
01:48:25,940 --> 01:48:26,020
Yeah,

1291
01:48:34,430 --> 01:48:35,630
maybe it's eight or nine percent.

1292
01:48:35,930 --> 01:48:38,970
But you look at the map and Wade Cotches got the biggest area of Baltimore County

1293
01:48:38,970 --> 01:48:40,730
but he might have to stop putting in a small population.

1294
01:48:40,730 --> 01:48:41,710
No population, right.

1295
01:48:42,090 --> 01:48:44,270
The county council, Liberty Road, Liberty Oaks.

1296
01:48:44,290 --> 01:48:44,870
We always said that.

1297
01:48:45,070 --> 01:48:48,630
You know, it's probably really way up there as far as numbers.

1298
01:48:48,830 --> 01:48:51,910
When you get to all the communities, the numbers do increase.

1299
01:48:52,230 --> 01:48:52,410
Right.

1300
01:48:52,890 --> 01:48:52,990
Right.

1301
01:48:52,990 --> 01:49:00,750
because it's they mature and they and they also and the top of the demographics they fluctuate because like where I live in the

1302
01:49:00,750 --> 01:49:01,750
part of parks where I live

1303
01:49:02,270 --> 01:49:08,950
At one time if we need to go out of schools a lot of young families because of suburban area the people who love the area

1304
01:49:08,950 --> 01:49:13,910
They rather age in place and now that they are aging out now

1305
01:49:13,910 --> 01:49:16,330
We're seeing influx of more families again

1306
01:49:16,330 --> 01:49:22,730
And now we're having another need for more schools because you know like I said the generational thing score that liberty

1307
01:49:22,730 --> 01:49:28,050
Road corridor was the first corridor that increased from Baltimore City. You could see that when

1308
01:49:28,050 --> 01:49:32,250
I was a policeman, we could, you know, that the people moved up the Liberty Road corridor.

1309
01:49:32,350 --> 01:49:35,030
As it was a straight line. Right. Straight line. That's right.

1310
01:49:36,310 --> 01:49:43,290
I mean, I remember Park Heights and then Rolling Road and, you know, I mean, it was a huge

1311
01:49:43,290 --> 01:49:47,170
change in population. And once they put, and once they even

1312
01:49:47,170 --> 01:49:51,310
the road out, you know, it was at late 50s, once they even the road out and stopped

1313
01:49:51,310 --> 01:49:59,510
going up and down your heels. We'll show you a manual admission. Yes, straight line.

1314
01:50:11,510 --> 01:50:18,010
So we'll be submitting you questions that we want on a survey. We have like a two or

1315
01:50:18,010 --> 01:50:22,730
three-day limit so that we have time to send you the questions. You send the survey out.

1316
01:50:48,820 --> 01:50:50,940
Oh, I wanted to hear the results by the 22nd.

1317
01:50:54,560 --> 01:51:00,240
I know, I know, but at least if we have, we are finding out, once we hear, we feel, we

1318
01:51:00,240 --> 01:51:03,560
find out what we think, then we're hearing what people think.

1319
01:51:05,300 --> 01:51:07,280
I mean, if it's still, if it's still oppressive, no problem.

1320
01:51:09,780 --> 01:51:14,180
I mean, we're coming back on the 29th and we'll be dealing with both our questions

1321
01:51:14,180 --> 01:51:15,600
and the public's questions.

1322
01:51:15,780 --> 01:51:16,200
That's what I'm saying.

1323
01:51:16,400 --> 01:51:16,500
Right.

1324
01:51:16,600 --> 01:51:17,160
We'll have them.

1325
01:51:17,160 --> 01:51:21,480
And we have, for example, if I'm looking at what people are feeling and I'm hearing what

1326
01:51:21,480 --> 01:51:25,660
I'm hearing from the public, I mean, it makes, you know, if it's still a question, not a

1327
01:51:25,660 --> 01:51:25,900
problem.

1328
01:51:28,860 --> 01:51:29,540
Yes, Sarah.

1329
01:51:29,700 --> 01:51:32,680
I'm going to be out of country the last week in February.

1330
01:51:33,140 --> 01:51:33,200
Yes.

1331
01:51:33,580 --> 01:51:37,260
I'm speaking the 26th of February to the second of March.

1332
01:51:37,360 --> 01:51:40,440
Not that I mean, you can do it without me, but I'm just wanting to, you know.

1333
01:51:42,810 --> 01:51:43,530
That is a good point.

1334
01:51:43,710 --> 01:51:43,730
I

1335
01:51:57,720 --> 01:51:58,540
think it's the best I can.

1336
01:51:59,600 --> 01:52:00,320
I understand.

1337
01:52:00,700 --> 01:52:01,220
You don't think you'll play for a while.

1338
01:52:02,040 --> 01:52:02,400
Okay.

1339
01:52:05,300 --> 01:52:06,440
What is our quorum?

1340
01:52:06,440 --> 01:52:09,420
As long as we're not voting on anything, you know, that's the key.

1341
01:52:10,080 --> 01:52:11,000
Six. Six.

1342
01:52:11,460 --> 01:52:17,880
As long as we're not voting on anything, then I think everybody needs to be available for the vote, you know, and whatever.

1343
01:52:18,040 --> 01:52:18,180
Right.

1344
01:52:18,660 --> 01:52:19,240
I think that's right.

1345
01:52:26,380 --> 01:52:26,840
That's right.

1346
01:52:28,400 --> 01:52:30,060
The fourth is a Monday.

1347
01:52:43,320 --> 01:52:47,040
Since everybody is already planning like February and March, I know you sent the February dates out,

1348
01:52:47,080 --> 01:52:52,480
but could you just send March date out options to the group now so we could just like get them on the calendar now?

1349
01:52:52,480 --> 01:52:54,420
That would be helpful, I think, for everybody.

1350
01:52:54,780 --> 01:52:54,920
Yes.

1351
01:52:55,660 --> 01:52:55,840
Eric.

1352
01:52:56,620 --> 01:53:03,440
One thing I want to mention on in-person meetings, there was a suggestion that they'd be done

1353
01:53:03,440 --> 01:53:09,380
on the weekends, because presumably more people might be able to show up on a weekend

1354
01:53:09,380 --> 01:53:12,820
as opposed to a workday night.

1355
01:53:13,060 --> 01:53:13,800
For a public hearing?

1356
01:53:14,040 --> 01:53:14,240
Yes.

1357
01:53:14,760 --> 01:53:19,180
That was something that came in, I think, from a community person that said that

1358
01:53:19,180 --> 01:53:21,320
about when we have the community meetings.

1359
01:53:21,320 --> 01:53:29,000
season or you won't get anybody in. That's right, that's right. So true. Do I march bad in this time?

1360
01:53:30,300 --> 01:53:34,660
That's not true. Anybody can. That's not right. March Madness. That's March Madness in March.

1361
01:53:36,420 --> 01:53:40,900
You ain't going to get anybody in. We're starting to realize what it is.

1362
01:53:41,020 --> 01:53:46,660
No, we're not. Remember, this is open. People know they just have to make a decision.

1363
01:53:49,340 --> 01:53:56,600
They have to make a decision what's important. This is one sense from 58 for 7 to now. This

1364
01:53:56,600 --> 01:53:57,680
is the once in a lifetime.

1365
01:54:00,240 --> 01:54:02,600
Folks, I think we won't be around for the next one.

1366
01:54:04,000 --> 01:54:05,640
I'll be taking a dirt nap.

1367
01:54:07,320 --> 01:54:08,580
No doubt about it.

1368
01:54:10,200 --> 01:54:14,260
I haven't had to say this for a long time, but can I have a motion to adjourn?

1369
01:54:14,260 --> 01:54:16,120
I move that we adjourn.

1370
01:54:16,580 --> 01:54:18,840
Thank you.

1371
01:54:20,970 --> 01:54:21,780
Good meeting.