[0:00] Call this meeting to order.
At 9:00.
[0:05] FOIA appeal for Mr. Dwyer.
Join me with the Pledge of Allegiance.
[0:15] I pledge allegiance
>> I pledge allegiance to the United States
[0:19] of America. And to the republic for
which it stands, one nation under God,
[0:25] indivisible, with liberty and justice
for all.
[0:32] Madam Clerk, would you please take roll
call?
[0:35] » Supervisor Johnson.
>> Present.
[0:37] » Supervisor Crocco, here. Treasurer
Davis.
[0:40] » Here.
>> Trustee McKay.
[0:41] » Here.
>> Trustee Monkey is excused. Trustee
[0:44] Blanchard is excused. Trustee Hoskins.
>> Here.
[0:47] » Five present, we have a quorum.
>> Good.
[0:51] Okay.
The forwards we have FOIA appeal of
[0:55] William Dwyer. Appeal FOIA request
received on June 22nd, 2026.
[1:02] So, I'm now going to turn over to our
attorney to
[1:05] to uh
take it from here and
[1:08] and I'll explain the appeal.
>> Okay, so thank you, Randy. So,
[1:13] as you said, we're here for Mr. Dwyer's
FOIA appeal. And on June 22nd, he did
[1:17] FOIA uh an email for a FOIA request
requesting uh the copies of the
[1:22] completed unabridged fifth down pilot
logs, transition history, and metadata
[1:25] generated by BS&A software database
pertaining to the property located 4300
[1:30] Halstead Road in Willow Creek. Uh the
request specifically covered uh the
[1:35] entire historical record for this parcel
from the date uh the township's BS&A
[1:39] system was first implemented to present
day. Uh so, there was um
[1:45] we did grant the uh
the the request to the extent that the
[1:49] records did do exist. We do know that
there's a BS&A system BS&A system that
[1:53] allows uh for us to research uh some
some of these uh these requests. Uh
[2:00] So then on did Mr. Ryder did submit a
FOIA appeal
[2:05] and that was received by the Township on
August 11th at its regular meeting. And
[2:10] the appeal is Mr. Ryder requesting
following relief a public body cannot
[2:14] capably perform its function when basic
statutory deadlines are routinely
[2:18] ignored because the Township failed to
comply with mandatory time frames
[2:20] established under the statute and legal
authority.
[2:23] And because he's been forced to contact
the Township's over administrative
[2:27] lapses he's collecting the problem. Uh
he's requesting that the clerk's office
[2:32] to produce the actual BS&A change
logs/audit trails for personal number
[2:37] 04-014-031-00
[2:41] and the permanent and waiver of all
processing fees as well associated with
[2:44] this request. And there weren't any fees
associated with this request before um
[2:49] my understanding. So the findings for
this
[2:52] just a just some background oh
regarding
[2:56] what the Township did to to look for
these records. Uh they the Township does
[3:00] have the BS&A software program and that
I I recall I believe it was a Friday
[3:07] myself, Joyce, and Kristy
I think it was most of that afternoon
[3:10] we're going through and trying to trying
to to figure out how to pull these
[3:13] records. We we did contact
BS&A their help desk and they they did
[3:18] help us
walk through that process.
[3:21] I think they had someone specifically
that was working with us. It was
[3:25] complicated from what I recall. Uh we
were able to pull uh
[3:29] uh several I think I think a bunch of
records. There was a couple years that
[3:33] BS&A didn't have any records for
and you know because of that we weren't
[3:37] able to produce those records but the
records that we did have we did
[3:41] produce them. So once you know the
Township does have a ongoing duty to
[3:46] disclose which means that if new records
come up along the way that we discover
[3:50] we still have to turn those over. Okay?
Now,
[3:53] with that um
the assessor is most familiar with BS&A
[3:58] because they just work with it a lot
more than the offices of the clerk and
[4:01] treasurer and or myself, I've never
really worked with BS&A before. So, we
[4:05] just followed up with the assessor to
see is there any more additional records
[4:09] that she could find that maybe we we
couldn't find during
[4:13] during our research. And and I think
just for the time frame, I think it was
[4:16] about 4 hours that we all
were working with BS&A to try to to pull
[4:20] all the records for the first go. Um do
you know if you had an opportunity to
[4:23] see if there was any records more
records?
[4:25] » So, it was in the administrative BS&A
system I was able to pull an audit log
[4:31] for each individual year, but my audit
log only shows changes such as address
[4:36] changes and stuff.
Administrative changes.
[4:41] I did call it. I did print it. I believe
they gave each year to you also.
[4:46] That was the only other thing I was able
to find.
[4:49] » So,
were all those records disclosed to you
[4:52] by her?
>> I think
[4:54] they they gave them to him.
>> Yeah, he's got them.
[4:56] » Okay.
>> I I mean beyond that, I'm not aware of
[5:00] any additional records
that exist.
[5:04] You know, like I said, we did a a search
with BS&A for about 4 hours and then to
[5:08] to make sure we didn't miss anything
else.
[5:11] The the assessor
she just went through what she did.
[5:14] There were some additional records that
were found, which is which is fine and
[5:17] we're not going to really go into any of
this most of today.
[5:20] Um Mr.
Dwyer did we speak with you today? Um
[5:23] Mr. Dwyer, we also during this process
too would also like you to
[5:28] if you have anything additional you'd
like to tell the board, uh go ahead and
[5:31] have your chance. Okay.
>> All right. First of all, I asked for the
[5:35] the records in in the digital format.
And um
[5:40] uh
I filed a previous FOIA request for the
[5:46] audit log on a building permit.
And
[5:50] I received that in digital format. Here
it is in spreadsheet.
[5:56] And
I don't understand why I haven't
[5:59] received what I asked for
in digital format. I've got a stack of
[6:04] paper here.
>> Okay, so if you receive that today, we
[6:06] can scan this and then send it to him.
That if he prefers a digital copy,
[6:10] that's something we can do.
>> Okay.
[6:13] » Maybe even as soon as after the meeting.
>> Okay, if that's possible.
[6:16] » I can do it as soon as I can for you.
>> So that would be fine.
[6:19] » And the initial response was 3 days
late.
[6:22] » And because of that, there was no cost.
There was a miscommunication of when the
[6:25] records went out and we discussed that.
There was no cost associated with it.
[6:29] » I'm sorry.
>> There was no cost associated with it.
[6:33] » We were 3 days late.
>> Yeah, there was a miscommunication of
[6:37] when and who sent the records. And we I
believe we addressed that.
[6:41] Yeah, we addressed that previously.
There was There was no cost associated
[6:44] with it.
We're We're processing it for you.
[6:51] » And that initial response gave me
everything except what I was asking for
[6:56] from from BS&A
software. I gave You gave me the the
[7:01] records that are publicly visible, not
the audit log.
[7:05] » As far as I know, we gave everything we
had. That's If the record doesn't exist,
[7:09] it it doesn't exist or we don't create
something, but as far as I know, we gave
[7:12] everything that
that we had.
[7:14] » I think they're for 4 hours. It was
actually between 4 and 6. And it was
[7:19] Cody Joyce and I, and I believe there
was two other attorneys involved and
[7:23] BS&A.
>> And Michelle was on the phone.
[7:25] » Yeah, and I did have Michelle on the
phone and I couldn't I dug up everything
[7:29] that I could find.
And that's all that I could find. Um
[7:34] and I don't think BS&A actually even
knew what we were asking for is what I
[7:38] felt like.
>> Right.
[7:41] » So I I did try to pull everything I
could.
[7:44] » You know, at this point we can only
produce the records we have and that's
[7:47] that's what we have.
Uh so,
[7:50] like I said, it's not really I mean
there was a thorough search. I at least
[7:54] 4 hours with
two attorneys, several uh um
[7:59] yeah, township officials and I think
part of that and Shell was on on the
[8:02] phone to part of that process, too. Uh
so, in addition to what happened that
[8:06] day, um she also was able to pull a few
uh files and pull a couple more uh logs
[8:11] that we have here which have been
uh scanned from Mr. Dwyer and we
[8:19] So, I don't have anything additional to
add. That's the summary of what happened
[8:22] with
um we talked to Mr. Dwyer.
[8:27] So, Mr. Dwyer doesn't have anything
additional. Uh no, I don't want to cut
[8:31] you off. Do you have anything additional
about your political field we found for?
[8:34] Okay.
Uh so, with this type of uh
[8:38] anytime there's an appeal, there's a few
different uh
[8:41] motions that could could be uh
adopted by the board. I I gave you the
[8:45] proposed motions. Uh you could deny the
appeal because no other records exist.
[8:50] Uh you could grant the appeal because on
additional research uh by the assessor,
[8:54] additional uh records uh
were located. Uh and in this case, they
[8:59] were located. We have to get them to a a
digital copy uh which he's going to get
[9:04] in you know, in probably the next hour.
Uh so,
[9:10] and in the second request is a full
permanent waiver of costs, but there
[9:13] there was no motion associated with it,
so there's no motion associated with
[9:16] that.
I I think then So, as far as the motion
[9:20] goes,
yeah, I think we're going to grant the
[9:22] appeal because there was additional
research and there were additional
[9:26] records that were located and I think in
there you could qualify that uh
[9:31] that they were going to they will be
produced to Mr. Dwyer today uh via
[9:36] email.
[9:46] So, I'm happy to answer any additional
questions.
[9:51] » I have a few.
Um,
[9:55] the 3-day late miscommunication, I guess
we don't need to go over what that was,
[9:59] but sometimes that seems to be
continuing.
[10:03] What can we do to move this forward so
we're not having these delays?
[10:08] » No, it's a good question, Karen. So,
there's for example, we did receive a
[10:11] couple of, uh, FOIA requests since. So,
the 10-day extension, uh, went out for
[10:15] one of them yesterday. I confirmed Mr.
Dwyer received it on before the meeting.
[10:20] Uh, the second one, uh,
is going to go out today. We also need a
[10:23] 10-day extension for that. And it's, you
know, for FOIA requests, uh,
[10:27] on our end, it's
maintaining contact now with with with
[10:31] Joyce and Kristy with a copy to if, you
know, to Randy. And then, uh, also with
[10:36] with records that go out. Like for last
night's, for example, uh,
[10:40] I was copying the whole board on it. Uh,
it's typically that, I mean, that's not
[10:44] required FOIA, but I think that's
probably just the best case.
[10:46] » Yeah, we appreciate that.
>> Yeah. We can handle that.
[10:49] » My other question is this audit that we
just got here. And so did Mr. Dwyer.
[10:55] Um, and this was printed out the 18th.
Moving forward,
[10:59] I'm not sure who printed this out or who
had it, but it would be really nice to
[11:02] get these earlier.
So, we have a chance to look at it
[11:05] before the meeting. Cuz this was printed
the 18th, so that's a week. It We don't
[11:09] have a chance to look at this. Mr. Dwyer
did not have a chance to look at this.
[11:12] To me, that's not fair.
>> Okay. So, in the future, if there's, uh,
[11:16] additional records, then let's let's get
those out
[11:19] » The day they're printed. They should be
flying out to everybody.
[11:31] That's it. Thank you.
Oh, one other
[11:35] » Sure, sure.
>> our Zoom
[11:38] that just went on the website and our
Facebook. We have to do better on that,
[11:42] too.
[11:46] Because that's how the public can keep
an eye on what's going on here as well
[11:49] as us.
The Zoom should have went out on the
[11:52] website, on Facebook. It's not It just
went on
[11:56] at least 5 minutes before our meeting.
So, I've already have people sending me
[11:59] messages that wanted to watch this that
are asking me where that Zoom is. It
[12:03] should go should have been on Friday,
Thursday.
[12:07] So, the public has a chance to be there
as well. I'm done now, thank you.
[12:13] » I have a question.
>> Sure.
[12:14] » for Dwyer. Um, under the transaction
history, what is it
[12:19] that you're looking for specifically?
>> I just want
[12:23] audit logs that show timestamps,
usernames, and what was changed.
[12:30] » Okay.
>> On everything.
[12:32] » Okay, I don't know that I can find that.
I can pull up
[12:37] the one that I did myself
when I cashed that check, but that's the
[12:43] only part that I can get into.
Michelle's system and my system is
[12:47] completely different and a lot of her
stuff I'm not allowed into, but I can at
[12:52] least pull up what I processed for you
and when I processed it.
[12:56] » Okay.
>> And it's going to be the only one that I
[12:58] can do and I can also send it over to
you. Is that Michelle? Is that something
[13:02] you can do, the audit log? I I'm new to
I don't know.
[13:05] » I just wanted that I did provide that I
that I did not I wasn't sure what was
[13:09] what it was why I didn't pass it on
until I confirmed this morning that you
[13:12] were going to pass it on.
>> Okay.
[13:14] » Um, that is just administrative. That
basically will show to you if you just
[13:17] took a parcel like address changes or if
there was a permit pulled that that was
[13:22] put into my system.
They we link together and that
[13:27] Yeah, different changes to the actual
administrative database.
[13:31] » Okay.
>> You want my audit log to show?
[13:33] It doesn't show any payments or anything
like that.
[13:35] » Okay. So, between both of you, you can
>> Yeah, I can only pull up the one.
[13:39] » Got you.
>> But the one that I did, I can pull up.
[13:42] But
I mean, I can try to dig deeper, but I
[13:46] can only go so far. I'm only allowed to
go so far in the system.
[13:50] » Yeah. So, between both of you, like I
said, they can probably
[13:54] get better or both of you printing
something out and comparing it? I don't
[13:57] know.
>> I have a question. It's a
[14:00] It's a Microsoft SQL database. Why is it
not linked?
[14:06] » Well, they're linked, just I don't have
access to or they do anything in the
[14:10] treasury system or pull any reports. I
only have access to my
[14:14] administrative BSA database. They're two
different
[14:18] systems. They're linked, but um
a building permit, per se, I can look
[14:22] into that there is a building permit,
but the specifics of it I have to
[14:25] manually put in.
That's
[14:28] » Okay, that doesn't make any sense, but
okay, whatever. I don't care.
[14:32] » I don't disagree.
>> Yeah.
[14:36] » And I am the same. I can't change
anything on your system. There are some
[14:41] things I can see, but I can't change
anything.
[14:43] » Is that the normal stuff?
>> I I've run this issue before.
[14:46] » Okay. Okay.
>> Yeah, and it is See, like the problem is
[14:48] is like you're we're limited to the
program that we use. So, a lot of times
[14:52] when there are requests for this
it's exactly what you're seeing now.
[14:56] Like you pull the records and then
that's the record we have and we
[15:00] produce. And if there's something that
additional records that exist somewhere
[15:05] we don't have them. And that's why you
see that nothing exists as far as on
[15:10] that end, but that that's been a
It's not the first time I've ever heard
[15:14] that.
>> Okay.
[15:15] » So, that's um pretty normal for the job.
Each job has their own program that they
[15:20] deal with.
>> Right.
[15:21] » And Yeah, a lot of them you can do a
read-only,
[15:24] » Mhm. but not produce anything from.
>> And I get that, but with Christie's
[15:28] printout and Michelle's printout, it
seems like we could do a comparison and
[15:31] maybe make a spreadsheet on those
comparisons on each of yours and yours.
[15:35] Does that make sense, or is that
>> I don't know that I can dig that deep. I
[15:38] might just be able to pull up the
transaction that I did.
[15:41] » Yep.
>> So, anything else
[15:44] I think it's only going to be the one
transaction.
[15:46] » Okay.
>> The one that I processed.
[15:48] » Yeah.
>> It's what it is, so I don't know if
[15:50] there'll be a comparison.
>> Okay.
[15:53] » My audit log won't show her transaction.
>> Correct.
[15:56] So, okay.
[16:02] » For the record, you you know that you
you processed the one in May on the 20th
[16:07] on May 21st.
>> Yes, that was the
[16:11] » That was building permit.
>> It was a building permit that he he
[16:15] actually processes it
in his system under building and zoning,
[16:20] and so he enters the information in, and
then he brings it over to my office, and
[16:25] I cash receipt it, or actually you cash
receipt it.
[16:29] And then I'm the one that does the
deposit to the bank on that.
[16:35] So, that was the only part that I I
deposited it. Pretty much is all I
[16:40] did with it.
[16:54] » Um
this is what I got from that
[16:57] from that uh
that May
[17:00] uh request.
>> That was the one from the building
[17:02] permit.
>> I got the one from the building permit.
[17:05] So, I had even tried when we were
talking about it last week recreating
[17:09] that one, and every time I tried to run
that same record, BS&A was giving me an
[17:12] error, like memory something something.
Uh so, I'm looking into that, but so I
[17:18] on my side, like I know there's a couple
of enforcement and stuff I was trying to
[17:21] get the auto lot for, but it kept giving
me that same error.
[17:24] Um, but I'm working on that. I can okay,
send all that over to you when I get it.
[17:34] » Go ahead and pass it around the room to
me.
[17:36] » Okay, sure.
[17:43] » So, what we need then is the motion to
grant the appeal with an understanding
[17:48] that any new info will be forwarded.
[17:57] » I move to uh
grant the appeal
[18:02] with the understanding that any research
has been located
[18:08] and will be distributed on
[18:12] » And that
>> later today?
[18:13] » with zero fee?
>> With zero fee?
[18:16] » fee. There was no fee.
[18:22] » I'll second it.
[18:27] » Moved and seconded. Is there any dis-
more discussion on it?
[18:32] » I just if you pull the original
paperwork on that permit, you'll see
[18:35] that the the dates are wrong.
[18:40] » I don't know if I can pull Cody's
um paperwork on that.
[18:44] » I'm talking about my paperwork with my
handwriting on it.
[18:48] » Can I copy this?
>> Yeah. I have
[18:51] the same version. I can send it to you.
>> Okay.
[18:53] » It's a PDF file.
>> If you can forward that to all of us,
[18:58] please.
[19:03] » There's a motion on the floor to be
voted on.
[19:08] Any discussion can take roll call.
>> Trustee Hoskins.
[19:13] » Yes.
>> Treasurer Davis.
[19:14] » Yes.
>> Clerk Barocco. Yes.
[19:17] Trustee McAd.
>> Yes.
[19:18] » Supervisor Johnson.
>> Yes.
[19:20] » Five yes. Motion carried.
[19:34] » Who did you want to
speak?
[19:37] » After public. If anybody need anybody on
the board to talk after public.
[19:42] » Okay, Mr. Blair, are you
satisfied?
[19:46] Are you satisfied with your comments so
far or you need more time?
[19:51] » I guess.
I mean, that's
[19:55] that's if that's the best you can do,
then
[19:57] I guess that's all I'm
all I'm going to get.
[20:02] » Okay, we'll move to a public comment.
Anybody wishing to speak at this
[20:05] hearing?
[20:10] » No.
[20:16] All right.
>> I'll be back.
[20:23] So,
[20:26] here we are again in another
FOIA appeal.
[20:31] Um
[20:34] that was done everything last minute
again.
[20:38] Like you said, should be done.
Many things are done, we should have it
[20:42] put out to the public for anything. I
mean,
[20:45] the only reason and I know because I had
conversations with people that was here
[20:49] about how politics work and the power
works. Somebody do things like
[20:53] send out your emails at, you know, 4:29
on Thursday when you're leaving for the
[20:58] weekend and that's what you do with the
game that you play
[21:02] and it's a regular occurrence that
happens
[21:07] from attorneys as well as from boards.
Um you form patterns when you do things
[21:14] like I have for as long as I have.
You form some patterns of things. And
[21:20] then when you're told things
that have happened.
[21:27] And then you you can say that someone's
lying, but then oh, I guess I the nice
[21:31] way to put it out there was someone
misspoke.
[21:35] Someone must have just misspoke recently
because
[21:39] because we don't we don't have a pattern
yet of
[21:43] not sharing properly. We don't have
patterns yet of
[21:48] doing things incorrectly.
[21:55] The data that he requested is absolutely
100% a part of the BS&A system.
[22:02] Whether you're not talking to a
technician, you're talking to a
[22:05] salesperson instead of actual data
technicians.
[22:09] The The records are there
of who
[22:15] as a representative in your in your
departments
[22:19] did any changes within the system. Those
records are there.
[22:23] 1,000%
I am building these same exact systems.
[22:30] And guess what? For retention of all
records for when you build a system like
[22:35] this,
every single bit of data is in the
[22:38] system.
And it is a record.
[22:41] It's there.
[22:45] You guys can just deny and play ignorant
all you want.
[22:49] But you guys' ignorance is costing the
township too much money.
[22:54] And it is growing at a rapid pace.
So I suggest you again, like I said last
[23:00] meeting, we probably need to fire the
attorney again and find someone that's
[23:05] competent. I think we should maybe get
people on the board that actually are
[23:10] competent to do work like FOIA requests
that are actually simple. You guys are
[23:15] screwing it up at a very
very severe degree. Attorneys and the
[23:19] clerk are not doing it at all.
Simple work.
[23:24] Simple work.
[23:32] » Anybody else would like to speak in
public comment?
[23:39] Seeing none, we'll go to uh
trustee personal privilege.
[23:47] » Mr. McGinn.
>> I'm all set.
[23:53] » I'll again reiterate that I but I'm
earlier that we do need to do better.
[23:58] These need to get to us. We have to have
time to review these instead of them at
[24:01] our
desk here at our seats when we come in
[24:05] for this FOIA. Emails would be great. I
want to work on these dates. We should
[24:11] not be filing extensions unless it's
something major. I would like to know
[24:16] what constitutes a 10-day
an extension for 10 days that we're not
[24:20] able to get that information.
The 3 days late and stuff, I just
[24:24] the public's asking for that and they're
seeing that. So, we need to move that
[24:29] forward.
That's it.
[24:32] Thank you.
[24:34] » Um
[24:37] I will try to get on the phone again
with the FOIA and talk to them again to
[24:41] see if there's something that I can find
or something they can help me find to
[24:46] see
if I can help him find what he's looking
[24:50] for. Again today, I'll try.
Um that's all I have.
[24:57] » I'm good.
>> No further comments.
[25:02] Hearing is adjourned.