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Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the September 4th, 2025 agenda meeting in the Minnesota Public Utilities Commission.

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My name is Katie Steven. I'm the chair of the Commission. I'll take the roll first to the other commissioners who are present for today's hearing. Commissioner Partridge.

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Here. Commissioner Ham. Here. Commissioner Sullivan. Here. Commissioner Tuma.

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A quorum is present. We have six items on our agenda today. We will take a lunch break.

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Probably like at 12, 30 or so. And we, but we definitely won't start item number six before

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So if you're on for item number six, we won't take that up until one 30 at the earliest.

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Our first item today is a docket number or item number one will be introduced by Caesar Pane.

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Please introduce the first item.

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Yes, good morning, Madam Chair, commissioners, item number one, and today's agenda is in the

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matter of the application of utter care power company for a site permit for the up-to-66

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mega-watt-soul-way solar project in Beltrami County, Minnesota.

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And the questions before you today are, should the commission adopt the administrative

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law judges' findings affect conclusions of law and recommendations, should the commission

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find that the environmental assessment and the record created at the public hearing adequately

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addressed the issues identified in the scoping decision and lastly should the commission

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issue a site permit for the up to 66 megawatt solar project. The parties are here and available

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for any questions you may have. No other comments, no changes to the decision options

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Thank

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you

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very much. If the parties could please come forward, we'll begin with the opening

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comments.

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We'll begin with the applicant, so is it you, Ms. Brousvind, who are making

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opening comments? Good morning Madam Chair, Commissioner Just Christie Brousvind, appearing

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on behalf of the Water Tail Power Company. Mr. Reaver will be providing the opening statement

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for Soleil.

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Welcome Mr. Reaver, please introduce yourself and begin.

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Yep, thank you.

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Press and revert.

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Audertail power.

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So thank you for the opportunity to address you today regarding Audertail powers proposed

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Solar Facility, which includes construction of up to 66 megawatts of affordable reliable

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and renewable energy for our Minnesota customers.

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We believe this project represents not only a forward-thinking investment in clean energy,

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but also a strategic use of available infrastructure and interconnection opportunities

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within the MISO system. This always solar project is uniquely positioned to take advantage of

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MISO's expedited surplus interconnection process by utilizing an existing interconnection that historically operates at low capacity,

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due to the peaking nature of the associated gas plant. This seldom use interconnection allows us to deliver new solar

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generation to the grid, without the need for costly or time-consuming upgrades, enhancing

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efficiency, and enabling us to bring benefits to our customers more swiftly.

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Our commitment to balancing affordability and reliability with environmental stewardship

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remains unwavering, with sole solar offers a low-cost, clean energy resource that aligns

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with Minnesota's renewable energy goals, while continuing to meet the evolving needs of

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customers across the region.

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While negotiations for vendor and contractor contracts are ongoing, all current indications

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suggest that the project will feature a strong presence of both local and union labor,

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a testament to our dedication to supporting the regional economy and the skilled workforce

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of powers.

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Regarding the proposed decision options in staff briefing papers, Audertail Power supports

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adoption of the recommendations put forward by Commission staff, including decision options,

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1, 3, 4, A through B, as well as 6, A through F and 8. Once again, we thank the Commission

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for its thoughtful consideration of this proposal. We see Seoulways solar as an excellent

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low cost option for our Minnesota customers and appreciate your attention to them.

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Mayor, to this initiative. We're eager to collaborate with the PUC stakeholders and community members

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to advance this promising project. And of course, we're happy to answer any questions.

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Thank you very much, Mr. Reuer. Next, how about La Yuna, Dr. Franco?

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Good morning. Good morning, chair Seben. And commissioner, my name is Lucas Franco, here on behalf of La Yuna,

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We want to thank Audertail Power Company for their commitment to work with local labor, unions

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and other stakeholders to maximize the socioeconomic benefits of this project.

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The project will create approximately 70 to 80 good family sustaining construction jobs during

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its peak.

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This is good news for the local community and local workers.

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We have many members close to this project, many of which have transferable skills and

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eager to work on this project. In particular, we have a lot of experience pipelineers that

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have worked in the oil and gas industry and look forward to opportunities to work on this project.

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Autotails engagement with us shows a commitment to being a good neighbor and stewards of the land

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and locally economy in developing this project. In addition to creating high quality jobs and

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free our opportunities. This whole way solar project will help

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out to help meet Minnesota's renewable energy and carbon free power

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standards while capturing the benefits of expiring tax credits.

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We believe that the applicant meets the statutory requirements for a

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site permit. We agree with staff recommended decision options.

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One three four eight to be six eight to f and eight. And thank you so

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much for the opportunity to comment.

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Thank you. And Mr. Runky, welcome. Please state your name for the

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record and provide any comments you'd like to.

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I'm Nathan Runky with the International Union of Operating Engineers, Local 49.

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I actually don't have much for comments, so I would echo a lot of what Luke has just said,

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but we just wanted to make sure we're here in case there are any questions.

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Thank you.

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Thank you.

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And Mr. Cajayski.

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Thank you, Chair.

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Steven and Commissioners on Richard Cajayski, the Director of Government Affairs for the

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or Central States regional council and carpenters.

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We strongly support granting a site permit

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for the up to 66-megawatt Seoul-Way Seoul

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Project offers a valuable opportunity

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for skilled union labor, economic advancement,

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and regional sustainable development.

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This advances union careers and economic impact.

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The project creates high quality union jobs

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while promoting superior training

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and industry-leading safety standards,

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provided through union apprenticeship programs, the opportunity to use union labor ensures

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workers' benefits from living wages, health care, retirement security, and gives them the

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ability to raise strong families in a resilient community. Renewable energy projects, like

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soleway, stimulate the local economy, as our union members work, live, and spend in this

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This would advance Minnesota's carbon reduction goals and transition to clean our energy and the renewable energy projects like these can provide skilled development opportunities for a diverse local workforce while providing career advancement in the clean energy fields.

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Provides a commitment to community benefits, union labor delivers high quality construction and maintenance ensuring long-term operational success and reliable service.

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Labor's involvement this project will prioritize safety, stability, and accountability

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garnering community trust in renewable energy investments.

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The Carver's Union is ready to partner with Otter Tail Power to realize the important

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project affirming a shared commitment to ethical labor standards and economic and environmental

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progress for this region.

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Thank you.

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Thank you very much and we'll turn to Commissioner questions who would like to start.

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Thank you, Chair Seabend.

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So I appreciate everybody being here in the comments today.

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This record was, in my opinion, fairly positive and straightforward.

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And I don't have a whole lot of questions.

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I think there were just a few issues noted.

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A couple of those come up very regularly and we've discussed those quite a bit in other projects.

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So I'm not sure we need to go over them again.

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The change to the noise monitoring language looked fine and I'm seeing Mr. Kirsch not his head that that is an acceptable change. So that sounds good.

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The one issue that did pop up is this idea of whether the lifetime should be 35 years or 30 years.

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Um, I will just say that because this project specifically is owned by Reggie.

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The committee will have a great deal of insight into the project. I feel comfort with 35 years. I think I don't have any kind of problem with that. I think we'll have the ability to monitor the project and ensure that it continues to produce energy. Mr. Kirch, do you have any strong opposition to 35 years as a lifetime?

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Mr. Kirch, please state your name for the record.

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Good morning, commissioners, Raekers, Minnesota Public Utilities Commission, Energy Infrastructure, Permitting, Staff.

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I don't think there's any objection.

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I think staff just wanted to point out consistency is helpful in permit compliance.

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You know, it's a slippery slope.

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Argument are the parade of horrible.

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If this one's 35 is the next one, 32 is the next one, 38.

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And so to aid in permit compliance, we think it is important to be consistent, but there could be exceptions.

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And I understand that.

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I think that's helpful.

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I don't know if other commissioners have questions about that.

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From my perspective, Commissioner Partridge, I was comfortable with 35 years,

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and I appreciate EIP raising this issue.

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But I think if you look at the rate impacts and how it would be spread out over a longer period of time,

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and it would help mitigate the rate impact

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to, again, as you said, to a regulated utility

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where we're concerned about rates.

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That's why largely I'm supportive of 35 years,

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and think, you know, consistently, if we do continue to see,

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to try to maintain consistency to Mr. Kerch's point,

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it might just be, we want to move to this longer period anyway.

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Commissioner Humm.

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Thank you, Chessie.

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So I have a question to company on this issue.

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So what is your assumption in your ILP under your solar project?

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Yeah, thanks for the question commissioner.

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We used 35 years in that.

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So yeah, because commission approved the 35 years

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and then I think it is consistent that company

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is proposing 35 years in this target.

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So I think that's why I am supporting 35.

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and hopefully next weekdays or the new right up to this project is completed,

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weekdays or in your vital filing, you should clearly indicate that you are using

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35 as your depreciation time period and indicate that in filing.

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Any other comments on the 35 years from commissioners or questions?

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Commissioner Partridge?

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I do have one slight edit to make, or to propose, I would say, to decision option number eight.

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And that is just that decision option number eight is one that we regularly adapt to allow for edits to type of graphical errors.

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We identified one specifically in the permit here, where it refers to the Department of Commerce and should refer to the EIP staff at the PUC.

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And so Ms. Patterson has language that simply adds that to number eight to specify that we would replace

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Department of Commerce with EIP staff for accuracy. And that is the only item I have on this.

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Docket.

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Great. Ms. Patterson, do you want to put that up or did you put it up?

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Oh, you did. It's just small. There we go.

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No objection to that from the parties.

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And Ms. Bruseven or Mr. Ruhr, when remind us

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when you hope to begin construction and the targeted

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in-service state and how if there's anything you're doing

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to speed the process along so that it can...

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Adam Chair.

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Qualify for all the good things we wanted to qualify for.

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Assuming that meeting concludes as we anticipate when I go back to my office we'll be starting our pre-construction

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filings this afternoon.

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Audertail plans to start limited construction on its own emphacility and tree clearing this fall.

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To facilitate a full start of construction in the spring and then be in service by the end of next year.

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So the construction period is about how is about like spring to end of the year.

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hopefully it will be in production then at the beginning of twenty-six.

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At the end of twenty-six, the end of twenty-six, the beginning of twenty-six.

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So starting construction this fall helps ensure that we can take full advantage of

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a good construction season in twenty-six as soon as we possibly can.

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And Mr. Reuer is this project going to be jointly shared amongst your amongst.

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Most other states within Undertale's jurisdiction or is it remind us how you're proposing to spread

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the costs to the Minisotans?

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Yep. Thank you for the question, Madam Chair. Matthew Olson is online for a thought or

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till power. I think he might be best to answer that question.

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Mr. Olson, welcome. How would you like to talk about your jurisdictional split here between partnering

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and neighboring states, or could you fill a Senate on how that's going?

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More on commissioners, Matt Wilson, for our child power company.

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I think it's yours even yet.

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This is a project that we head into

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the allocation, as we talked about.

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I think for you in June,

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roughly 83% of Minnesota,

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that allocation will change

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in the load change between the states.

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It's anticipated then the impact of that for Minnesota ratepayers,

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essentially as we will offset additional power costs that would have been allocated to other states.

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So it likely will benefit rate pairs to be getting this clean energy resource once it's online correct.

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That's just

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you.

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I'm sure it's too much.

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Yeah, particularly if you're getting it in the ground quickly, that'll help out a lot.

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So we get that, I'm sharing, and this improvement, this is a good news that I'm hearing,

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but there's a lot of trees there.

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This is a good thing because it's not prime farmland, I guess, and so we don't have to worry

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about that.

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But this will probably be one of the probably outside of MPs coming when it's Boswell,

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some of the most tree clearing that we have done, and if we're starting quickly,

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I don't see this bump here, but I'm just curious, communicating with DNR already about

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this fast time line so that they're aware so that they can address any concerns they may have

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with wildlife management that is part of this program.

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I'm Chair Commissioner Tuma.

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We will be engaged with DNR here with Rachel, she's in the room to make sure that we are

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in full coordination and there was a modification that was introduced in Mr. Reaver's testimony

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that removed some of the panels that were in the southwest corner of the project and that

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reduced the number of acres of tree clearing pretty significantly. So we think that that was also helpful measure to minimize those impacts.

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I just want to make sure Ms. Bump was worn appearance. She's in the room and so now she's for worn that's all that that's all I need to know so.

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I didn't I didn't I didn't I didn't I didn't I didn't I didn't back there so she's not coming forward. So I don't he doesn't need to come forward. I just wanted to make sure DNR was aware of the expedited time.

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So, Commissioner Ham.

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Thank you, Chair Steven.

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So, another question to company.

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It is being considered as a surplus interconnection.

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So, what is company's plan to getting off from the surplus interconnection and being full resource?

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You know, future and future after we build all other transmission line, probably your interconnection costs will be very minimum.

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Is there any plan from company making it as a full resource rather than surplus interconnection?

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I think for the question commissioner, there are no current plans to do that, this is the nature

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of the peaking resource that's there and the solar resource that we're bringing online

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and kind of the operations of that gas plant.

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We believe the surplus interconnection is a good value for our customers and so at this point

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there's no plans to pursue its own standalone interconnection.

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But that means you are losing the capacity of the accreditation for this solar, so I think

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some point of time company need to evaluate the trade of between losing this capacity versus

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the connection cost.

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Thank you for that.

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And that's absolutely something we'll continue to monitor, especially with the miceau policy changes

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that are ongoing.

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Thank you.

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Commissioner Antima.

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It is a good point.

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And I've never thought through this.

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If let's say the sole way station is needed to be called on.

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And the solar is producing at 50% of its capacity at that moment.

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Is it possible for both units to be running and injecting?

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Because obviously, you can run a gas plant at pretty much any level.

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That's why we like them.

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They can ramp and they can, is that what happens?

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Because more than likely, at that stage, the solar is going to be cheaper.

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So is that the way they operate, I don't even know the answer that question.

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00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:25,480
So, yeah, thanks for the question. Commissioner Tuma. Yes, you're right. So, essentially, we have a point of interconnection level of 50 megawatts. Both these plants are also rated to be able to produce about 50 megawatts give or take. And so we just we never can exceed that 50 megawatts, but they can both operate simultaneously. And we'll we'll look to operate on most economically that we can.

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or something every day? Thank you.

248
00:20:30,810 --> 00:20:36,330
Ms. Brousen, this is a little unusual to when we were just talking about the replacement

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or the clearing of a number of trees and a different solar dock at the commission.

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I think if I'm remembering ordered replacement trees to be planted nearby.

251
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It was that anything that was considered in this

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socket for the actual clearing of where you would potentially

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replant the equivalent number of trees that were cutter

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is that I don't think it was brought into the record,

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so it's kind of on the fly here.

256
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But Madam Chair, that wasn't something that was raised

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in the record certainly there.

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This is at the Solation and so we'll be clearing the

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minimum number of trees necessary to build the solar

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project and trying to maintain the other existing trees in the area but a replacement was not

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contemplated in the record? I just think it's something that we should as joint not directed

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specifically at Ottertail here because it wasn't in the record and we didn't talk about it and

263
00:21:36,730 --> 00:21:42,450
I should have asked about it earlier but it's something as we get tree clearing projects

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parties including the DNR and surrounding tribes and others that are interested we should

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consider like planting equivalent number of trees in adjacent parcels, where we can.

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So I'm just expressing my lack of thinking about this ahead of time, really, but something

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to consider for the future. Commissioner Sullivan.

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I like where you're going with that. I mean, obviously, I don't think we're in anything right now,

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but I like trees too, the natural gas people know that to be true.

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But I want to go back to, this is more of a curiosity, so I'm interested in how you're

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using this in tandem with the sole weight gas unit that's there.

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So are you able to, like, in effect, firm them both up, you know, like you can,

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you have a

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but you can, because the solar is also going to be there, you almost like at that node,

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at the interconnection, you can say we're 100% or it allows us to store gas on site so

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that we're, you're kind of getting around, I don't know if this is firm gas, if you have

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a firm contract for delivery of gas, I'm just really curious in like how they're working

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together, and since this is the opportunity for me to ask this question that's why I'm doing it now.

279
00:23:20,900 --> 00:23:27,260
Yeah, thanks for the question, Commissioner Sullivan. I'll do my best to kind of explain the

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firming up so that there is a benefit to adding additional generation out of an existing interconnection

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for reliability purposes in our case for economic purposes. The one thing that we're

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and do you clear like you can kind of firm them both up like the gas probably has like a 91% accreditation

283
00:23:47,120 --> 00:23:52,940
and the solar probably is accredited at some number in the 30s or something and you could kind of

284
00:23:52,940 --> 00:23:58,040
give them both they can both get a bump up almost like when you do solar plus storage.

285
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:00,220
That's the way I was thinking about it.

286
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:05,520
Yeah, I think maybe one way to look at it is you have a point of interconnection accreditation

287
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And you are bringing two units to the equation that can maximize the amount of accreditation out of that single point of interconnection, right?

288
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So instead of saying the gas is getting slightly more or the solar is getting slightly more because it's adjacent.

289
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It's more of thinking of it as we have a 50 megawatt interconnection and there will be benefits now, you know, to a slight degree of an increase.

290
00:24:30,100 --> 00:24:41,280
And again, as I mentioned, there's a lot of changes that mice are right now, but there will be a slight increase potentially due to the added reliability of the solid farm there.

291
00:24:42,340 --> 00:24:43,120
It's interesting. Thanks.

292
00:24:44,660 --> 00:24:50,400
Any other questions or discussion? Commissioner Partridge, you have a motion. I do.

293
00:24:51,660 --> 00:24:54,100
I would move number one.

294
00:24:55,660 --> 00:24:59,920
This is an option number three, this is an option four.

295
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:12,200
A, and B, decision option 6, A, B, C, D, E, and F, and decision option 8 as modified.

296
00:25:13,500 --> 00:25:25,340
Great. Is there any discussion of the motion? Hearing none, all in favor of Commissioner and Partridge's motion, please say aye, aye, aye, aye.

297
00:25:25,340 --> 00:25:27,680
Opposed, the motion prevails 5 to 0.

298
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:29,520
Thank you very much.

299
00:25:29,700 --> 00:25:30,080
Thank you, Michelle.

300
00:25:30,220 --> 00:25:30,780
All the parties.

301
00:25:58,100 --> 00:26:00,980
Mr. Act, please introduce item number two.

302
00:26:04,140 --> 00:26:06,040
Good morning, Chair Sivan, commissioners.

303
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:07,780
Item number two is Dr.

304
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:19,220
Number IP-7145-ws-24-349 in the matter of Wisconsin power and light companies.

305
00:26:19,220 --> 00:26:28,720
site permit application for a large wind energy conversion system of up to 153 megawatts in Freeborn County, Minnesota.

306
00:26:29,780 --> 00:26:43,380
The questions before the commission are, or the question before the commission is, should the commission issue a draft site permit for the BENT 3 North Wind Farm in Freeborn County, Minnesota and staff is available for questions.

307
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:49,960
Okay, great, do we have, we don't have opening comments, correct?

308
00:26:52,620 --> 00:26:55,140
No, but he contacted me that day.

309
00:26:55,940 --> 00:26:58,800
I believe the applicants are here.

310
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:07,720
If the applicants will come forward for commission questions and if

311
00:27:17,290 --> 00:27:21,570
anyone else, if the department or anybody else has, I don't think they do.

312
00:27:21,570 --> 00:27:28,090
if good morning please state your name for the record. Good morning chair Stephen

313
00:27:28,090 --> 00:27:31,470
commissioner's salary hearing from the taff law firm, occurring on behalf of

314
00:27:31,470 --> 00:27:32,250
Wisconsin to light.

315
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:39,100
Good morning Marcus Gulante, Wisconsin power light. Great.

316
00:27:40,020 --> 00:27:44,400
Do commissioners have any questions for the applicant at this time?

317
00:27:50,140 --> 00:27:55,080
I can I could

318
00:27:55,080 --> 00:28:04,580
believe our first proposed wind project under our new process, and so that's kind of an exciting milestone,

319
00:28:05,580 --> 00:28:07,360
so can put that on a plaque.

320
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And this will kick off the next set of discussions and

321
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:23,480
public engagement, and so this is really in my mind just us seeing go forth and do great work with

322
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:31,260
public to gather input and feedback and then we will be back to look at all of that and in the

323
00:28:31,260 --> 00:28:37,840
conclusion and outcomes there. So I don't have any questions for you, but this is very exciting.

324
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:43,900
We like to see new in-projects and it's great that you are moving forward under this new process

325
00:28:43,900 --> 00:28:48,460
passed by the legislature in 2024?

326
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:55,940
Great, and as thank you, Commissioner Purchase for pointing that out and the general message

327
00:28:55,940 --> 00:29:04,460
is that our staff is working really hard to with applicants to ensure that they can process.

328
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:11,480
These documents as quickly as possible will still allowing for robust input from the public,

329
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:18,240
And it's really helpful to have the applicant already have done a lot of that.

330
00:29:18,260 --> 00:29:23,260
Prep work with, for example, the Albert Lee economic development agency.

331
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:28,600
We already have their comments in and other participants in this record.

332
00:29:29,260 --> 00:29:35,160
So thank you, Ms. Herring, on behalf of your applicant for doing a lot of that pre-work.

333
00:29:35,340 --> 00:29:40,920
That will help ensure that the public is informed and the commission can ultimately make a good decision

334
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,520
here in the coming months.

335
00:29:45,420 --> 00:29:48,300
Any other comments from commissioners?

336
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:50,260
Commissioner Partridge, do you have a motion?

337
00:29:50,820 --> 00:29:51,120
I do.

338
00:29:51,980 --> 00:29:55,260
I move decision option one in decision option two.

339
00:29:57,840 --> 00:29:59,840
Is there any discussion of commissioner and partridge?

340
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:09,980
Motion. Hearing none, all in favor, please say aye. Aye. Opposed. The motion prevails five to zero. Thank you very much.

341
00:30:14,070 --> 00:30:21,470
Okay. The next item, if parties want to come forward, is item number three.

342
00:30:24,340 --> 00:30:30,880
Take a second to allow staff to come up, and I know we have people online for this one too.

343
00:31:16,450 --> 00:31:19,250
Good morning, Chair Steven and Ken commissioners.

344
00:31:19,570 --> 00:31:27,610
Item number three is for docket number E-T-2 slash T-L-24-132 in the matter of the application

345
00:31:27,610 --> 00:31:33,190
of Great River Energy for a route permit application for the Lake Town 115 KV transmission line

346
00:31:33,190 --> 00:31:34,370
in Carver County, Minnesota.

347
00:31:35,490 --> 00:31:39,730
The questions before the commission are, should the commission adopt the ALJ's findings

348
00:31:39,730 --> 00:31:42,170
of fact, conclusions of law and recommendations?

349
00:31:42,170 --> 00:31:50,510
Should the Commission find that the environmental assessment is adequate, and should the Commission grant a route permit for the proposed transmission line project?

350
00:31:52,070 --> 00:31:58,430
Environmental review staff with the PUC EAP unit filed comments on the briefing papers on August 26,

351
00:32:11,810 --> 00:32:11,810
2025.

352
00:32:11,810 --> 00:32:16,910
and PUC EIP staff have created a handout showing the root comparison table from the environmental

353
00:32:16,910 --> 00:32:20,710
assessment as a visual aid for participants in today's meetings.

354
00:32:21,730 --> 00:32:26,170
Copies of each of those handouts are available at the back of the room on the table, and I

355
00:32:26,170 --> 00:32:28,890
have a few copies up front here if anybody needs one.

356
00:32:29,430 --> 00:32:31,950
Staff also notes one correction to the briefing papers.

357
00:32:32,430 --> 00:32:37,030
In the final recommended decision options from staff, it says staff supports decision options

358
00:32:37,030 --> 00:32:37,950
for in 11.

359
00:32:37,950 --> 00:32:43,910
There is no decision option at 11, staff meant to say we support decision options for in 10.

360
00:32:44,450 --> 00:32:46,770
I have no further remarks, but I'm available for questions.

361
00:32:47,110 --> 00:32:47,490
Thank you.

362
00:32:48,150 --> 00:32:50,930
Mr. Lobby and Mr. Hicks.

363
00:32:51,170 --> 00:32:55,330
Thank you so much for your work on this item to get us to this point.

364
00:32:56,230 --> 00:32:57,910
We really appreciate it.

365
00:32:58,210 --> 00:33:04,330
I'm going to turn it over to you to begin to step through the DACA here.

366
00:33:04,650 --> 00:33:05,390
Thank you, Madam Chair.

367
00:33:05,390 --> 00:33:12,770
And Sam did they get the commissioners get that copy of that breakdown of the factors.

368
00:33:13,890 --> 00:33:15,950
I don't remember if they got handed out to them.

369
00:33:19,270 --> 00:33:20,930
And man, I'm sure I appreciate it.

370
00:33:21,010 --> 00:33:24,330
I'm going to spend a little time because there has been a lot of moving parts here.

371
00:33:24,850 --> 00:33:27,570
I do want to make sure the city of Victoria, Mr. Hayden.

372
00:33:27,690 --> 00:33:29,010
Thank you for coming.

373
00:33:30,490 --> 00:33:32,450
And also I think this will go online.

374
00:33:32,450 --> 00:33:39,990
so I think to start off with, I want to make sure they are connected and just could introduce

375
00:33:39,990 --> 00:33:45,270
themselves so I don't know if Mayor Johnson, if you could introduce yourself so that we

376
00:33:45,270 --> 00:33:50,070
know you are connected. Sometimes our our systems don't always work that great so I want

377
00:33:50,070 --> 00:33:56,470
to make sure you're out there in the ether world. Yes sir commissioner I am on and I can hear

378
00:33:56,470 --> 00:34:01,710
you hopefully you guys can do the same with me. Ms Vogel I assume that is you too. Sorry commissioner

379
00:34:01,710 --> 00:34:05,610
to Mayor, can you please state your name for the record, too?

380
00:34:06,350 --> 00:34:09,410
Absolutely. My apologies. My name is Courtney Johnson. I'm the mayor of the city of

381
00:34:09,410 --> 00:34:11,630
cover. Thank you.

382
00:34:11,850 --> 00:34:16,870
Madam Chair, and also, I'm assuming that's you, Ms. Vogel, that I see a camera on, so I just

383
00:34:16,870 --> 00:34:20,410
want to make sure you can introduce yourself for the record and you can hear us.

384
00:34:21,750 --> 00:34:29,410
Yes, thank you. My name is Trudy Vogel. I have some Steve as here as well. And I'm just

385
00:34:29,410 --> 00:34:36,050
concern citizen. Yes, and thank you. We've we've we've we have the record night I want to start off though

386
00:34:36,710 --> 00:34:42,050
Venture sorry I don't mean to interrupt but and we don't the commissioners can't control the screen

387
00:34:42,050 --> 00:34:50,250
but there was a someone who put in the chat that they couldn't connect their video but they wanted to comment

388
00:34:50,870 --> 00:34:52,930
or introduce themselves

389
00:34:53,670 --> 00:34:56,630
Um, yeah, I'm here now,

390
00:34:58,920 --> 00:34:59,980
uh, my name is Brent Merrick.

391
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:08,160
Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Thank you. I'm not related to the Marick's down by New Preg, are you?

392
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:10,500
No, I

393
00:35:15,810 --> 00:35:24,510
heard you. And Ms. Johnson, I know you're a Packers fan. I'll forgive that for you, but I think it'll actually help you with

394
00:35:24,510 --> 00:35:28,670
Mr. Sullivan so so that you're you're in good you're in good hands

395
00:35:30,330 --> 00:35:38,650
I start with you Mayor Johnson has been a lot of moving parts and I remember the first time I came in from this commission in

396
00:35:38,650 --> 00:35:44,490
1990 as a freshman legislator and I was thinking what the heck is this place and what's going on here

397
00:35:44,490 --> 00:35:48,110
And so it can be a little confusing so I want to make sure

398
00:35:48,110 --> 00:35:54,410
We are tracking and it is very important to us at the commission to work with early on local units of government

399
00:35:54,510 --> 00:36:00,170
Okay, we have preemptive power over your sighting and routing and that's our authority.

400
00:36:00,170 --> 00:36:08,570
We have to do that, the legislature recognized that these are important, but that doesn't mean we ignore you or we want to ignore you or try to ignore you.

401
00:36:08,670 --> 00:36:15,610
You are very important to us and a lot of our sighting and routing documents, particularly with large wind farms and solar farms.

402
00:36:16,010 --> 00:36:23,810
The counties are even named in our permits and our participants and a lot of our processes and so we don't want you to feel that you're being left out

403
00:36:23,810 --> 00:36:28,930
And I just want to make sure you kind of understand where things are at today, okay?

404
00:36:29,610 --> 00:36:33,230
And I'm sure you saw my decision option that comes through.

405
00:36:33,870 --> 00:36:37,730
I want you to be aware that's just my decision option.

406
00:36:37,750 --> 00:36:42,930
This is John Tuma, one of the five commissioners who has an idea or path forward.

407
00:36:43,530 --> 00:36:48,710
My friends here to the left of me can make an alternative to it.

408
00:36:48,790 --> 00:36:49,910
They can suggest it.

409
00:36:49,910 --> 00:36:52,110
They're essentially seeing it the same time.

410
00:36:52,110 --> 00:36:59,090
everybody else is seeing it. We do not pre-consult these things. Nothing has been pre-worked out.

411
00:36:59,350 --> 00:37:06,530
Obviously, I work with my legal staff and Mr. Lobby to help develop it, but we are subject to

412
00:37:06,530 --> 00:37:13,010
the same laws that you, county councilists, open meeting laws. And so I can't go and sit down

413
00:37:13,010 --> 00:37:17,570
with, you know, Commissioner Partridge and say, here's what I'm thinking and should I put this in

414
00:37:17,570 --> 00:37:22,470
should I not, and then also what makes us unusual is we're also subject to

415
00:37:22,470 --> 00:37:27,330
exparte limitations, we're like judges. So you can't call a judge up and say

416
00:37:27,330 --> 00:37:31,730
judge, when we get together in the hearing tomorrow I want you to do this. We

417
00:37:31,730 --> 00:37:36,230
know that's not acceptable. I would love to give you a phone call and say here's

418
00:37:36,230 --> 00:37:41,670
what I'm thinking. I'm so sorry how you were treated. I can't do that. So this is

419
00:37:41,670 --> 00:37:45,570
my first chance to be able to talk to you and let you know what I'm thinking

420
00:37:45,570 --> 00:37:53,070
and why I'm bringing this forward but it's not nothing pre-decided and nothing that I've talked

421
00:37:53,070 --> 00:37:55,910
to anybody, I haven't talked to the applicant, I haven't talked to anybody, he's just

422
00:37:55,910 --> 00:38:01,730
what I see in the record and I wanted you to be able to at least understand what I was thinking

423
00:38:01,730 --> 00:38:09,530
so that you can comment on it, okay? I'll give you first my kind of worldview big picture and

424
00:38:09,530 --> 00:38:14,110
then I'll walk through the decision options because I don't want you to be guessing what I'm

425
00:38:14,110 --> 00:38:20,750
going okay what I saw when I saw the record and read through it carefully drove through your beautiful

426
00:38:20,750 --> 00:38:24,910
city don't tell the mayor of Victoria but if I were to choose to city's to live in I would

427
00:38:24,910 --> 00:38:30,430
pick yours okay I loved it downtown it was wonderful I was cute I never bent it downtown

428
00:38:30,430 --> 00:38:35,610
carver so it was it was a new thing for me so it was great at a nice cup of coffee and a sandwich

429
00:38:35,610 --> 00:38:40,950
there wonderful thing but I have to you know I have to you know I have to make decisions and so as

430
00:38:40,950 --> 00:38:44,330
I looked at the decisions, the tough decision I had to made where we're at.

431
00:38:44,970 --> 00:38:47,710
I felt that notice was still appropriate to you.

432
00:38:47,710 --> 00:38:52,250
I know you feel mistreated because they went and talked to Carver first, okay?

433
00:38:52,630 --> 00:39:00,350
I mean, Victoria first, but didn't come to you because you had an ordinary annexation agreement.

434
00:39:01,070 --> 00:39:01,110
Okay?

435
00:39:01,110 --> 00:39:01,830
And I actually know them.

436
00:39:02,070 --> 00:39:06,650
Well, I from Bridgewater Township, Bridgewater Township three decades ago was the first

437
00:39:06,650 --> 00:39:10,730
with the City of Northfield to develop an orderly annexation agreement.

438
00:39:11,010 --> 00:39:14,890
So I'm very familiar with them, understand how they work and how important they are

439
00:39:14,890 --> 00:39:19,510
to future city development. So that was an important thing that was missed by the applicant.

440
00:39:20,070 --> 00:39:25,550
So just because they met the minimum standard of notice according to our statutes,

441
00:39:26,170 --> 00:39:30,310
I still think there was a failure and you'll see where I think I'm trying to redeem that

442
00:39:30,310 --> 00:39:32,650
as we go forward in the decision options.

443
00:39:32,650 --> 00:39:38,110
but my world view was legally, they met the notice requirements for the city of Carver.

444
00:39:38,410 --> 00:39:43,290
You've had an opportunity to participate and now I have to make a decision that's in front of

445
00:39:43,290 --> 00:39:48,650
me and I'm trying to figure out how to best move forward. So that's kind of my world view as I

446
00:39:48,650 --> 00:39:53,450
look at it and then also I think is important to understand what I looked at the judges' recommendations,

447
00:39:53,930 --> 00:39:58,090
okay? Essentially she's giving me a two-part decision, okay?

448
00:39:58,090 --> 00:39:59,510
I'll turn the B.

449
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:29,980
Or the proposed route, and she's kind of eliminated C, okay? And I agree with her. Now, that's a difficult decision. When I first looked at this doc, and I thought C was going to be it. It seemed like the logical way to go, but I also, because I believe it's important for us to work with our applicants to work with local students of government. I don't want to undo what I think was a well reason decision, why not to go on the north side of that 230-kv record set line.

450
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:35,480
that was built there. You can't move to the south of it because we would have to take out at least one

451
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:41,680
house if not two to do that and it's costly to cross over those lines and so I didn't see

452
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:47,220
see getting any better. So I'll turn it to see just seem to me that we're kind of left with two

453
00:40:47,220 --> 00:40:53,540
decisions and so that's kind of the the world view I'm working from. I also have some thoughts on

454
00:40:53,540 --> 00:40:58,880
alternative to be to make it better. So that's where I'm thinking so just walking through the decision

455
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:07,260
options that I had to modify one, okay? Just so you know what it's saying is legally, I think

456
00:41:07,260 --> 00:41:13,300
the ALJ was wrong, we legally have met the notice requirements, okay? What's hidden in that

457
00:41:13,300 --> 00:41:20,260
is that I'm essentially not changing any other part of her recommendations and that hidden

458
00:41:20,260 --> 00:41:24,780
in with that is that the fact that C is no longer essentially on the table in front of

459
00:41:24,780 --> 00:41:29,880
today. The proposed route is because one of the reasons she objected to the

460
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:34,900
proposed route was a lack of notice, okay? I'm moving away from that and saying I have

461
00:41:34,900 --> 00:41:40,880
now sitting in front of me a bifurcated decision either alternative to be or the

462
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:44,740
proposed route. You can certainly disagree with me. My friends over here might

463
00:41:44,740 --> 00:41:49,440
still want to consider doing having see in some future process if we go down that

464
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:53,440
road. But there's not guarantee that we do, but I just don't think it's going to

465
00:41:53,440 --> 00:42:01,160
benefit me to see in the mix. I also want to point out that if we do go forward with future

466
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:09,720
process, I think applicant should be working with the city and the landowners to maybe find

467
00:42:09,720 --> 00:42:14,480
a different route and the township. Maybe there's a different route there. I can see it. I'm just

468
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:19,820
working towards what is in the record. Two decision options that I got to pick from the proposed

469
00:42:19,820 --> 00:42:25,200
out alternative to be, that doesn't, that doesn't take away your ability to continue to work with

470
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:29,820
the applicant to find a better path forward. I don't know if there is one, I can't see it,

471
00:42:29,940 --> 00:42:35,240
and I do look at these very closely, but that's why we have wise landowners who understand

472
00:42:35,240 --> 00:42:46,480
their own land better than we do, okay? Tuma modified five, okay? You can, but yeah.

473
00:42:49,020 --> 00:42:49,800
I just want

474
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:51,920
I just want to make sure she knows what I'm talking about.

475
00:42:52,940 --> 00:42:55,060
And in part of that process, Mayor Johnson,

476
00:42:55,460 --> 00:42:57,300
is my friends will start to try to think

477
00:42:57,300 --> 00:42:58,340
through what I'm thinking about.

478
00:42:59,240 --> 00:43:01,100
So he's thinking through it right now.

479
00:43:01,380 --> 00:43:04,180
And so we're trying to process it as we go.

480
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:11,400
But number five, OK, the record is to me lack it.

481
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:14,720
I'm in a difficult position because we

482
00:43:14,720 --> 00:43:17,480
handed out this thing on factors here.

483
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:28,340
And when you look at the factors we are subject to under statute, we must consider there's several factors that we must put into place following existing infrastructure is an important one.

484
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:37,240
And so not following C, I have to explain why didn't I follow that existing 230 KV line and I'm happy with what the judge said on that.

485
00:43:37,700 --> 00:43:45,920
But when you look at the two alternatives, it's B, which is better for land use and zoning, better for agriculture, better for vegetation.

486
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:52,820
So B is better for following a paralleling existing right-of-ways and it can even be better yet.

487
00:43:53,460 --> 00:44:02,280
And using existing infrastructure, the one where the proposed route is better is the reliability question.

488
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:04,560
And the question about how much that costs.

489
00:44:05,820 --> 00:44:08,040
And I have to balance those.

490
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:13,920
not any one of them is determinative, but when you're talking about a possible 30% increase in

491
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:20,360
the cost of this project for ratepayers to make it as reliable, that's a concern for me.

492
00:44:20,460 --> 00:44:26,060
And so I'm saying, I need more information in the EA, and I'm sure after you've done EA's

493
00:44:26,060 --> 00:44:31,500
before and why they're so important, that's a critical piece of evidence in the record for you

494
00:44:31,500 --> 00:44:37,300
as a citizen or as the leader of your community to be able to look at to assess and communicate

495
00:44:37,300 --> 00:44:42,880
to me what is going on on this landscape. And so if the EA is incomplete, and it doesn't

496
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:47,600
have that information in it, then it's really, I'm starting to get into the arbitrary and

497
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:53,560
deprecious end of things, okay? And I don't want to get there. I want to make sure we make a decision

498
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:59,980
that's solid and so I'm saying I need more information in that EA on how likely it is.

499
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:18,920
This is this reliability concern. And what is its real cost? I don't know if I have that. And just so you know then, leads into two things that are a little bit pushing it to maneuver, okay? To maneuver is basically saying, I don't have enough information.

500
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:25,680
You as a city could hire an expert to look at this data on reliability, okay?

501
00:45:27,300 --> 00:45:30,500
And give us evidence in the record, but that's really unfair.

502
00:45:30,620 --> 00:45:32,240
I need to know this information.

503
00:45:33,100 --> 00:45:39,980
And so what I'm asking in Tomb of B is to hire an independent expert in this area.

504
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:43,880
And I'll go into a little bit more detail with the applicant of why I'm thinking that.

505
00:45:44,240 --> 00:45:46,000
But that is pushing it a little bit.

506
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:48,040
This is a short line, okay?

507
00:45:48,180 --> 00:45:53,440
It is a pinch point that we're dealing with here that is clearly a concern for your community

508
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:59,260
for several hand owners, and this reliability question of how important that reliability

509
00:45:59,260 --> 00:46:04,160
question is, really balances against the alternative B, which looks like a better route

510
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:05,320
on all the other factors.

511
00:46:06,220 --> 00:46:10,800
And so I'm asking for a minute, but I want you to know, I am pushing them, although we do

512
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:15,380
higher experts in these situations to do this, but this would be the first time in truly

513
00:46:15,380 --> 00:46:21,320
that has ever been done in this short of a line, and in this situation, but I'm feeling

514
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:29,540
need for it and so that's what Tuma New B says, okay, and then find our new, and then also the

515
00:46:29,540 --> 00:46:37,720
new B, sorry, the next Tuma 5A, there's 5B, I'm asking it to be remanded to the ALJ, this is also

516
00:46:37,720 --> 00:46:45,140
new. The legislature passed the law about a year and a half ago that now allows us to remand a

517
00:46:45,140 --> 00:46:49,480
question and we have to be very specific, that's why it's a little bit lengthy, we have to be very

518
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:53,860
specific of what we're amending back to the ALJ and then the administrative

519
00:46:53,860 --> 00:46:58,320
law judge, the chief administrative law judge can accept the remand or he can

520
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:03,400
reject it. It's up to him. And then that doesn't end the process. What would happen

521
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:07,560
then is we would have to do some sort of process here at the Commission. Typically

522
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:12,100
what we call notice and comment where we send out notice to all the landowners

523
00:47:12,100 --> 00:47:17,540
and affected cities. Here's the record as it stands now. Here's the new EA. Hopefully

524
00:47:17,540 --> 00:47:24,000
maybe a new experts opinion on this. Please write us back comments. Now, that puts a lot of

525
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:28,900
owners on our staff to do a lot of extra work because ALJs as a true as you experience,

526
00:47:29,420 --> 00:47:35,320
they're good at bringing people together and developing a record. And so what I'm doing in 5B,

527
00:47:35,660 --> 00:47:41,260
which by asking it to be remanded to the ALJ, is new. We've never done it before, but it is allowed

528
00:47:41,260 --> 00:47:46,040
by statute. And I'm trying to be very clear on what I want to get back from the ALJ. I don't want

529
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:52,600
whole new record, I just want information on this question about reliability and costs and I also

530
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:57,760
want to forward the landowners on alternative B that the route should actually the alignment

531
00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:03,500
should actually be on the north side of Augusta Avenue. That's the logical place using our

532
00:48:03,500 --> 00:48:08,160
factors where it should have been placed in the first place and the applicant should have helped

533
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:15,180
the items and the vocals and other folks recognize that but they didn't. That's where I'm at

534
00:48:15,180 --> 00:48:19,500
I want you to, you're free to give your comments now. If you want, you can certainly wait

535
00:48:19,500 --> 00:48:24,900
to later after you hear more comments. You certainly, if you need some time to consult with your staff,

536
00:48:25,380 --> 00:48:29,580
you can do that, and we'll take a break. I just want you to make sure you understood this.

537
00:48:29,620 --> 00:48:34,640
I don't know if you have any questions about what I'm proposing or what position we're in at this stage.

538
00:48:36,140 --> 00:48:41,480
Mayor Johnson, that was a lot, but please feel free to provide comments now.

539
00:48:44,140 --> 00:48:44,660
Commissioner,

540
00:48:46,720 --> 00:48:50,580
Chair, Commissioner Tuma. Thank you so much. You're right. That was a lot.

541
00:48:51,340 --> 00:48:55,420
But I really, really, really appreciate you kind of walking me through step by step.

542
00:48:55,840 --> 00:49:02,480
I needed that. I can tell you all about our processes in the city of Carver, but this board is new and foreign to me.

543
00:49:02,500 --> 00:49:05,220
Perhaps those demonstrated I don't know how to adjust you correctly.

544
00:49:05,220 --> 00:49:09,480
So, I appreciate you walking us through that.

545
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:12,320
You have seen my testimony.

546
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:18,120
The city of Carver has some really strong concerns,

547
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:21,840
because of the lack of notice that we received,

548
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:23,820
which I think has identified in the administrative

549
00:49:23,820 --> 00:49:25,280
law judges' findings.

550
00:49:26,820 --> 00:49:32,230
With that, I think the direction that you are all going towards

551
00:49:34,270 --> 00:49:38,830
or revised option B is something that the city is very much behind.

552
00:49:40,150 --> 00:49:44,250
We discuss this at our city council meeting on Tuesday night,

553
00:49:44,670 --> 00:49:53,350
and route alternative B seems to really accomplish everything that we're looking to get done.

554
00:49:53,830 --> 00:49:57,430
In keeping it out of the city of Carver's future growth area,

555
00:49:57,430 --> 00:49:59,970
It doesn't put us.

556
00:50:00,370 --> 00:50:08,450
At odds with our neighboring communities with which we have a fantastic relationship with, but I get that portion

557
00:50:08,450 --> 00:50:16,670
pull and that tug that you are all in. So I think that's where my head is at. I'm so appreciative

558
00:50:16,670 --> 00:50:20,490
of the opportunity today and we support option B.

559
00:50:21,570 --> 00:50:22,930
Thank you Madam Chair, Mr. Hayden.

560
00:50:25,180 --> 00:50:28,980
My first statement to you right off the get go and my just

561
00:50:28,980 --> 00:50:35,880
must surprise my friends here today. I am so sorry. And I mean that from the bottom

562
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:47,060
of my heart. I have been on the land. Okay. I'm no public speaker. And can you

563
00:50:47,060 --> 00:50:53,740
state your names? Thank you. Thank you. It's on. It's green. That's good.

564
00:50:56,480 --> 00:51:10,700
I'm not a public speaker. I don't want to be here. I shouldn't be here. Great river energy told me farmers like to come and public speak. I don't think so. I'd rather be home right now.

565
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:19,960
And I know not politically correct. So if I say something you guys are going to have to tell me and I'll apologize immediately.

566
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:28,460
I'm beyond hot, they've lied to me, especially that man sitting right there.

567
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:32,220
City of Carver got notified because we went down there and told them.

568
00:51:32,500 --> 00:51:35,180
And he told me, we notified the City of Carver.

569
00:51:35,540 --> 00:51:38,820
The City Administrator at that main meeting says, they never notified him.

570
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:41,680
And I want to tell you right off the get-go, Mr. Hayden.

571
00:51:41,720 --> 00:51:44,920
I've read the record, I saw all your comments along these lines.

572
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:46,540
And so I felt like my fellow commissioners.

573
00:51:47,060 --> 00:51:52,420
we are I'm I'm I'm I'm honest I am sorry this this is not the process that this commission

574
00:51:52,420 --> 00:51:56,880
I don't want you to be sorry I want you to do something we're gonna we're trying to they're trying to

575
00:51:56,880 --> 00:52:00,940
all the same thing the very first meeting they had them shoelays

576
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:08,620
ID tags you know they didn't introduce themselves you know right away who are you where do you live on the

577
00:52:09,460 --> 00:52:17,360
You know, and they had these, they didn't say who they were, and they had them shoelace, and their name tag is done by their crotch.

578
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:19,860
I shouldn't have made that stay up here as well.

579
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:21,740
Well, what is the proper procedure?

580
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:25,560
Bend over and look at their crotch to find out who they are.

581
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:30,920
You know, Marcie had just a name tag stack, stabbed on there that said Marcie.

582
00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:35,660
You know, and then I asked Marcie that meeting, and my voice in my time,

583
00:52:35,660 --> 00:52:38,800
Oh, very seldom does anything get changed.

584
00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:42,000
You know, she basically told me I'm wasting my time.

585
00:52:42,340 --> 00:52:45,680
And the more I ask these guys questions, the more they lie to me.

586
00:52:46,260 --> 00:52:48,700
And that's, that is not acceptable. And I see that I know.

587
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:51,960
And I see that in the record. And they're, they're hearing it, okay?

588
00:52:52,300 --> 00:52:55,080
They know that I'm not, they know that I'm not happy right now.

589
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:58,320
And I mean, I'm trying to stay focused on going forward.

590
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:01,360
And that's why I want, that's why I want to kind of get you past the anger.

591
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:08,260
So I don't know if it gets worse that whole line B is my option and that's what I want to talk to you about a little bit

592
00:53:08,260 --> 00:53:11,860
And so they're very first me and I said why don't you just come down Kelly Avenue will go straight?

593
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:17,980
It's a straight you know with a farmer like a fence. What are you doing zigzagging crossing all over the place?

594
00:53:18,140 --> 00:53:24,860
So let's talk this talk about that because I want I want I'm I'm trying to find a process forward and as you always explain to the mayor

595
00:53:25,420 --> 00:53:28,160
This is my idea. I'm trying to get to

596
00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:29,300
Where it works

597
00:53:29,300 --> 00:53:36,280
And I told you my world view right now is I'm struggling with, I'll turn it to be on the reliability standpoint so I need more information.

598
00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:43,340
But also I struggle with it and this was your route that's you suggested and I'm suggesting a change to that route.

599
00:53:43,740 --> 00:53:48,640
Okay, now I know the landowners down there, there's a Greg and a Troy.

600
00:53:48,700 --> 00:53:51,180
I'm assuming some relationship to you.

601
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:52,200
Yeah.

602
00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:53,400
Same last name, distant.

603
00:53:54,100 --> 00:53:59,200
So what I see on the land, okay, just what I saw and what I see from the record.

604
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:03,100
in the maps okay and then you can help me out because I'm sure you've driven down a gust

605
00:54:03,100 --> 00:54:08,620
to road a few times in your day. Yes. What I'm seeing is the way the alignment is now in

606
00:54:08,620 --> 00:54:13,660
alignment, do matter, even though we give an alignment and then several feet on each side

607
00:54:13,660 --> 00:54:20,220
of that alignment to give the applicant a chance to adjust. I'm sitting at that corner of Jersey

608
00:54:20,220 --> 00:54:26,160
and Augusta and if I were to go west in the alternative it's one landowner on the south,

609
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:31,260
the lingo trust okay it's not it's not homestead but you can tell me they put a lot of

610
00:54:31,260 --> 00:54:36,780
they put a lot into that property it's it is it is it's a guy from Minneapolis

611
00:54:36,780 --> 00:54:42,940
it's not there and whether it's from in the house I mean he there's a lot there it's fixed up yeah

612
00:54:42,940 --> 00:54:48,760
and then on the north side there's the existing distribution line and typically our factors say

613
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:53,880
follow the existing distribution line it makes sense right now it would impact Greg a little bit more

614
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:59,980
Okay, but it makes more sense and so I need Greg to know in the future when we give out

615
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:08,020
Notice that we might be putting it on his side of the road as opposed to wiping out all the trees in front of the ligngrins property.

616
00:55:08,620 --> 00:55:16,880
And so that's to me makes more sense. And if you're alternative, I didn't know if there was a specific reason you added it on the south side of the road.

617
00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:17,700
Or not.

618
00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:22,740
It didn't matter. I mean, I don't, again, I'm not a professional, lines, I don't know how to do this.

619
00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:27,240
That's helpful because I, you know, they're telling me what can't be looked. What the hell is looping?

620
00:55:27,240 --> 00:55:32,520
I don't know, you know, and they come up with all these excuses, well, if we come up Kelli

621
00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:37,000
Avenue, then we can only put two transformers there rather than four and we're going to get to the bottom of that

622
00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:44,620
That's what I would like to get to the bottom of when we do some more record development. So I understand why it's a reliability concern

623
00:55:44,620 --> 00:55:51,380
But I wanted to make sure by adjusting by adjusting alignment. I wasn't doing anything to offend you.

624
00:55:54,740 --> 00:55:56,960
No, no, no

625
00:55:56,960 --> 00:56:02,320
And they put me in a terrible spot. I have chased on their lies and find out they're lying to me.

626
00:56:02,500 --> 00:56:05,880
They have. And again, I cannot, I cannot tell you how bad I feel.

627
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:10,120
Okay, I mean, but they actually think they're going to pull this off yet.

628
00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:13,180
Well, this whole thing, well, we did what was legal.

629
00:56:13,500 --> 00:56:16,340
I mean, legally, morally, they should have called Carver.

630
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:20,580
If it's legal or not, it's morally, they shut off.

631
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:24,560
And we need, and we need to work through that. Now we have a decision decision decision decision.

632
00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:28,600
He's still going to make a decision, and I think the best alternative before us is your

633
00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:29,820
suggestion, alternative B.

634
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:31,020
I withdraw that.

635
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:31,940
Alternative B.

636
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:32,200
Yes.

637
00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:33,380
I'm withdrawing it.

638
00:56:33,720 --> 00:56:36,440
Well, why would you want to withdraw alternative B?

639
00:56:36,620 --> 00:56:39,400
Because they didn't look at going up to an upper.

640
00:56:40,020 --> 00:56:43,680
And all the lines that are possible through the city of Victoria, they didn't look at.

641
00:56:44,140 --> 00:56:45,180
And I know we're out of time.

642
00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:47,420
And again, I don't know how to do this.

643
00:56:47,980 --> 00:56:51,240
I'm terrible and comfortable and not in front of all these suits here.

644
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:54,280
I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean,

645
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:54,540
I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean,

646
00:56:54,540 --> 00:57:00,820
and everything else. I got I got I got a farm to run. I'm not watching timelines. And again,

647
00:57:01,220 --> 00:57:06,260
and that's what pissed me off when they said, well, you find a better route than. Well, you,

648
00:57:06,260 --> 00:57:11,480
you did. I did. And that's, that's, they should be embarrassed. And I'm not going to withdraw.

649
00:57:11,540 --> 00:57:16,120
And I want to withdraw. No, the record is what the record is. I have to work out the record. I

650
00:57:16,120 --> 00:57:19,820
blew it. And I don't know what I'm doing. I know. Well, you know, you did actually do a pretty good job.

651
00:57:19,820 --> 00:57:28,500
Okay, I'm just trying to get to where we're going to go forward and I at least from you you have no objection if I say alternative to be should be on the north side of the road.

652
00:57:30,820 --> 00:57:31,700
Miss Vogel.

653
00:57:32,780 --> 00:57:33,220
Yeah.

654
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:35,320
You've heard our conversations.

655
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:38,300
And I I want you to understand.

656
00:57:38,340 --> 00:57:43,880
I understand according to the record that you were part of the at least your name was attached to alternative be.

657
00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:48,540
And I assume you're still support going down

658
00:57:48,540 --> 00:57:50,580
alternative to be like the city has recommended.

659
00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:53,100
Is that your position?

660
00:57:55,380 --> 00:58:00,300
Well, yeah, it makes the ball sense to me to put the line

661
00:58:00,300 --> 00:58:06,040
on an existing road instead of tearing through somebody's farmland.

662
00:58:08,180 --> 00:58:11,140
There was never a mention of it going down

663
00:58:11,140 --> 00:58:15,800
in a grab and it would put that could be a good alternative as well.

664
00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:20,040
you know following the votes instead of breaking up farmland.

665
00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:25,260
Right now I have two alternatives and I have no problem if the applicant can work something

666
00:58:25,260 --> 00:58:33,160
out with you, the city, and doesn't pretty much right and probably not, but there's always

667
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:33,700
an alternative.

668
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:36,180
But I have two in the record that I have to work from.

669
00:58:36,380 --> 00:58:38,240
And I think they're doable routes.

670
00:58:38,780 --> 00:58:45,360
I have a big concern about reliability, but one of the reasons I suggested moving the alternative

671
00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:51,940
B to the north side, the alignment, okay, when I look at impacts on residential properties, okay,

672
00:58:52,780 --> 00:58:58,060
and pinch points like this, okay, and I have two options, I look which option has the

673
00:58:58,060 --> 00:59:04,000
residents that's the worst impact, okay, or the the developed property that's the worst impact,

674
00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:11,620
okay, and so as I look at this record now and what I see, okay, if the route runs on the north side

675
00:59:11,620 --> 00:59:18,160
of Augusta Avenue as I think is the appropriate way to do, okay? It takes a whole lot of

676
00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:23,920
pressure off of that lingering property because if we were to go on the south side of the road,

677
00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:29,540
we would have to basically tear up their whole front yard and put a line within some 50 to 70 feet

678
00:59:29,540 --> 00:59:36,280
of their residents. If we follow the existing distribution line, we impact Mr. Greg Vogel a little

679
00:59:36,280 --> 00:59:46,220
more, or Greg Iden a little bit more, but it reduces the impact I think overall. And so as I

680
00:59:46,220 --> 00:59:52,260
sit here right now, the route that has the most impacted residents on it is alternative to

681
00:59:52,260 --> 00:59:59,400
be because of the lingoence. Now if I flip that around, the sad news is if we move it to the

682
00:59:59,400 --> 00:59:59,880
impact.

683
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:06,420
Residents of all the residents of all the round options that are in front of me now would be your property, the

684
01:00:06,420 --> 01:00:13,900
Vogel property. I've seen it. I see what you're saying. You're above your above ground. You're looking right across into that field. I see what you're saying.

685
01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:29,580
And so you would be the most impacted and it's still maybe a decision we have to make down the road. But all of a sudden now if I can move that alternative B to the to the north side of the road, okay, it weighs in the favor of doing alternative B. And so I just want to make sure

686
01:00:29,580 --> 01:00:31,660
since your name was connected to it,

687
01:00:31,680 --> 01:00:33,700
and you would be the most impacted property

688
01:00:33,700 --> 01:00:36,120
on the proposed route and the all the routes.

689
01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:38,020
If you had any objection,

690
01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:40,780
if there were some reason why you had alternative

691
01:00:40,780 --> 01:00:42,700
to be running on the self-site of the road.

692
01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:46,760
Well, if you were to move alternative,

693
01:00:47,420 --> 01:00:49,860
you know, the route, and I'm a little unclear,

694
01:00:50,140 --> 01:00:51,900
I'm sorry, I don't have any handouts here,

695
01:00:53,080 --> 01:00:58,780
but when you're saying all route is the one

696
01:00:58,780 --> 01:01:01,820
That one's right and property you're saying, correct?

697
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:09,860
Let me be a little clear, alternative B and the proposed route are the only two routes that we're looking at, at least I think we should look at right now.

698
01:01:10,480 --> 01:01:12,840
My friends haven't said anything yet, okay?

699
01:01:13,300 --> 01:01:16,580
All the record gives us is those two routes to pick from, okay?

700
01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:27,800
The concern I have with is the way that alternative B is drawn in the record, right now the one that goes down a gust of avenue and then down Kelly, okay?

701
01:01:27,800 --> 01:01:33,880
the alignment, which makes a big difference on how we value the impacts in the factors.

702
01:01:34,620 --> 01:01:40,140
That alignment sits on the south side of the road and it plows right through the front yard of the lingoence.

703
01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:46,540
And my concern is that it should have been on the north side of the road.

704
01:01:47,060 --> 01:01:56,780
It would have less impact and I think would way better for alternative B in the long run when we look at the factors if it's on the north side of Augusta Avenue.

705
01:01:57,800 --> 01:01:58,620
Are we tracking?

706
01:01:59,780 --> 01:02:02,140
Well, my question to you, then,

707
01:02:02,140 --> 01:02:07,400
to mention, is that if it was alternative B, then would go

708
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:13,560
Kelly Avenue to the North, and then East on Augusta Road to...

709
01:02:13,560 --> 01:02:14,680
On the North side of the North.

710
01:02:15,700 --> 01:02:17,180
To Jersey. Is that correct?

711
01:02:17,220 --> 01:02:18,120
That's correct.

712
01:02:19,340 --> 01:02:21,260
Then it would not impact us.

713
01:02:21,300 --> 01:02:22,400
It would not.

714
01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:26,380
But the way it's drawn up right now in the maps,

715
01:02:27,160 --> 01:02:28,780
I'm not liking it.

716
01:02:29,040 --> 01:02:33,460
I actually like the preferred route better because of the impact it has on the

717
01:02:33,460 --> 01:02:34,300
lingering property.

718
01:02:34,700 --> 01:02:38,600
That would be the most impacted property, all the properties because we had a tear

719
01:02:38,600 --> 01:02:41,560
up their whole front yard to put the line in.

720
01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:46,880
So my suggestion is and what makes more sense to me is that alternative be should be

721
01:02:46,880 --> 01:02:55,720
aligned on the north side of the road for as it goes west on from Jersey Avenue, right there

722
01:02:55,720 --> 01:03:01,220
or your crosses between the lingoent cross-property and Mr. Greg Iden.

723
01:03:02,600 --> 01:03:02,920
Yes.

724
01:03:03,540 --> 01:03:06,010
We would be in.

725
01:03:06,010 --> 01:03:10,950
That's, that's, I just wanted to understand that to me, then it weighs more favorably

726
01:03:10,950 --> 01:03:16,810
from a residential impact to do alternative B. Okay?

727
01:03:17,070 --> 01:03:20,850
If it's aligned on the north side and you're flying with that, okay?

728
01:03:22,210 --> 01:03:23,530
And I have going to question.

729
01:03:23,690 --> 01:03:24,250
Yeah, absolutely.

730
01:03:24,270 --> 01:03:26,310
I want you to understand what's going on, so.

731
01:03:26,310 --> 01:03:42,290
Okay, so if it does end up, and if they do end up pushing it through the item arm, and it would then come towards us to the North, would it then be on the North side of the road as well?

732
01:03:42,290 --> 01:03:46,590
I understand from that the alignment they provided it was is supposed to be on the

733
01:03:46,590 --> 01:03:53,310
south side of the road when it goes on the proposed route. So it would not go

734
01:03:53,310 --> 01:03:57,600
through your front yard. That's that is the way the alignment is right now.

735
01:03:58,710 --> 01:03:59,130
Right,

736
01:04:01,420 --> 01:04:04,780
but we're to go on the north side. It would be in right in front of our

737
01:04:04,780 --> 01:04:08,540
So, that's not the way, yep, yep, you're correct.

738
01:04:09,560 --> 01:04:10,200
Okay,

739
01:04:12,660 --> 01:04:12,880
yeah.

740
01:04:14,020 --> 01:04:19,220
The aesthetics of that would be horrible, like I said before, the impact and environmental

741
01:04:19,220 --> 01:04:26,820
impact would be terrible with all of the wildlife that is in that area now, and you need

742
01:04:27,800 --> 01:04:35,960
destroying all those sentry old hardwoods that are right by the railroad tracks there and

743
01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:44,060
going through a big slew which doesn't seem to be the only advantage I can see to that

744
01:04:44,060 --> 01:04:50,280
is that they are saving money because they are just they're taking the cheaper routes by

745
01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:56,890
buying farmland versus. And we don't know that for yet and we'll talk about that in a little

746
01:04:56,890 --> 01:04:59,970
good, but yes, for the prop, propose rough.

747
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:07,540
What would be on the south side of Augusta Avenue? As proposed by the applicant, and so it would not go

748
01:05:07,540 --> 01:05:13,440
through your front yard, it would go in front of your front yard, across the road, but not in your

749
01:05:13,440 --> 01:05:22,200
front yard. And then my suggestion is alternative B actually travel going away from your property,

750
01:05:22,720 --> 01:05:29,560
going west along the north side of Augusta Avenue so that we don't tear up the front yard of

751
01:05:29,560 --> 01:05:30,940
lingering property.

752
01:05:42,440 --> 01:05:50,620
Yes, I guess if that's my alternative B would be what we would be in favor of.

753
01:05:51,660 --> 01:06:02,480
However, I like Tim's idea of going up or looking at least what Juniper Avenue would be. Has anybody looked into that?

754
01:06:02,480 --> 01:06:09,240
You know, we have not have that on the record is a decision that isn't front of us today.

755
01:06:09,420 --> 01:06:14,840
We have two viable decisions that are very close and so if that's an alternative,

756
01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:19,740
that can be worked out down the road, I have no problem them coming back asking for an adjustment.

757
01:06:20,500 --> 01:06:22,420
But I'm not planning towards that.

758
01:06:22,600 --> 01:06:28,460
We have to make a decision going forward at some point here and we got two viable alternatives.

759
01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:32,440
But the lack of information, Mr. Hayden, you had something you wanted.

760
01:06:32,460 --> 01:06:37,100
The most impacted houses are in hamshire, rolled with you.

761
01:06:37,560 --> 01:06:46,360
Not lung runs, that's not, the houses on hamshire are closer to the road than the lung runs.

762
01:06:47,460 --> 01:06:49,140
It's fine, it's fine.

763
01:06:49,820 --> 01:06:53,740
But that's why you see, and there's nothing, but there is.

764
01:06:54,760 --> 01:06:57,060
The blind is on the other side of the road.

765
01:06:57,740 --> 01:07:02,060
Okay, if it's in the longer ends of it's going through the front yard, I'm not, I'll be sure

766
01:07:02,060 --> 01:07:04,120
it cuts to his woods on the west side.

767
01:07:04,120 --> 01:07:05,540
Just the west side of his woods, yes.

768
01:07:05,760 --> 01:07:07,240
And that's right next to his house.

769
01:07:08,360 --> 01:07:12,060
So, we can, we can disagree on an analysis.

770
01:07:13,260 --> 01:07:16,180
I, I, I, I, I, I just see as I look at it, uh, at longer and

771
01:07:16,180 --> 01:07:19,000
property, if you would put it on the south side of the road, would tear up their front yard.

772
01:07:19,540 --> 01:07:21,080
And that was never meant to be there.

773
01:07:21,160 --> 01:07:22,920
And that, and that's what I, that's what I, that's what I, that's what I, that's what I, that's what I just,

774
01:07:22,920 --> 01:07:26,660
and I just wanted to confirm that's what we're dealing with and to me.

775
01:07:26,660 --> 01:07:30,900
and they told me that day they can't put it on the north side of the road because it would impact

776
01:07:30,900 --> 01:07:36,620
break items host. Well I know that's that's what I want to I want to get facts about that and

777
01:07:36,620 --> 01:07:41,720
that's what I'm lacking right now. So one way one of the policies impact a little bit the other way

778
01:07:41,720 --> 01:07:46,080
the other policies impact it and that's that's the factors that's a tough decision I'm going to make

779
01:07:46,860 --> 01:07:50,880
yeah. Madam chair I would like to go to the applicant but I know I've raised a lot of questions

780
01:07:54,690 --> 01:08:00,230
And then we need to take a break, at least a short break.

781
01:08:01,050 --> 01:08:06,270
Ms. Waller-Pitz, please introduce yourself and your other witness.

782
01:08:06,570 --> 01:08:13,750
And then you're welcome to provide whatever context you'd like right now.

783
01:08:15,740 --> 01:08:20,020
Thank you, Chair Haley Waller-Pitz with Fredericks and Embyron on behalf of the applicants.

784
01:08:20,980 --> 01:08:24,580
here and with me is Mike Swenson with Great River Energy.

785
01:08:26,580 --> 01:08:32,760
We've put a lot of analysis in filings including the filing that was made earlier this week.

786
01:08:33,100 --> 01:08:38,960
I just want to reiterate understanding the comments that have been made today.

787
01:08:39,300 --> 01:08:48,040
The applicants here really did make a good faith effort to engage with the public and try to find a workable route for the project.

788
01:08:48,040 --> 01:08:50,020
We understand this is a tight area.

789
01:08:50,220 --> 01:08:52,100
It's a transitional area.

790
01:08:53,240 --> 01:08:58,740
The application proposes a route that the applicants thought was the best route.

791
01:08:59,360 --> 01:09:02,240
We understand there's a difference of opinion on that.

792
01:09:03,260 --> 01:09:09,480
And as I think is laid out in the comments that we filed earlier this week.

793
01:09:10,600 --> 01:09:13,220
The applicants, you know, continue to support the proposed route.

794
01:09:13,220 --> 01:09:17,560
but understand that that route alternative be is permittable.

795
01:09:17,980 --> 01:09:20,020
And at this point, given that this is a project

796
01:09:20,020 --> 01:09:24,060
that's needed to serve local load, what's important

797
01:09:24,060 --> 01:09:28,820
to the applicants today is that we would like to get a decision

798
01:09:28,820 --> 01:09:31,520
from the commission, whether that's the proposed route

799
01:09:31,520 --> 01:09:32,680
or route alternative be.

800
01:09:32,740 --> 01:09:34,200
We're problem is well, it fits.

801
01:09:34,840 --> 01:09:36,180
OK, I read the record.

802
01:09:36,460 --> 01:09:37,280
I got to the record.

803
01:09:37,280 --> 01:09:39,960
I got to the point where I'm reading the LJ report,

804
01:09:40,160 --> 01:09:42,320
which is I typically do when I dive into this level.

805
01:09:42,320 --> 01:09:44,680
I've already looked at it prior, kind of didn't Christian routes.

806
01:09:45,140 --> 01:09:49,340
I assumed I'll turn it to see what was going to be where we were going to go, but I get

807
01:09:49,340 --> 01:09:52,400
why you did, and you did the right thing, you went and talked to the city of Victoria,

808
01:09:52,640 --> 01:09:56,320
and you worked out an understanding of what was going to go on, so I don't want to disrupt that.

809
01:09:56,560 --> 01:09:59,960
And so I don't see sea as a viable route this way because of actual development.

810
01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:05,920
I'm going on. We don't want that quick trip. We don't want to affect the other places that they've actually started

811
01:10:05,920 --> 01:10:12,560
plating and laying things out. So I get that. And I support the ALJ decision on that. And so I'm reading through and I go, okay.

812
01:10:12,860 --> 01:10:24,260
I'll turn it to be. I'm told that by you, this reliability concern, okay. And the judge cited in there, eight to ten million dollars, cited five million dollars, okay.

813
01:10:24,260 --> 01:10:40,900
extra cost for alternative B. And I did the math, okay, and the math is, okay, alternative B, the actual construction, the best I can tell, is cheaper, then the proposed route, and she just did her math and made an estimate.

814
01:10:41,320 --> 01:10:45,060
If you do the math from the record using eight million dollars, it comes out to 5.6.

815
01:10:45,440 --> 01:10:49,560
She apparently rounded down, so I don't feel a need to change that in the record, okay?

816
01:10:49,560 --> 01:10:58,060
But when I went to the citation, it cites to something you filed on May 13th, okay?

817
01:10:58,660 --> 01:11:02,140
I made 13th, you had comments about the EA.

818
01:11:02,580 --> 01:11:07,300
So none of this information is in the EA, even though Mr. Hicks did the right thing and

819
01:11:07,300 --> 01:11:10,180
asked you to explain this reliability concern.

820
01:11:10,840 --> 01:11:15,900
And you sent him a whole bunch of information about, you know, why it needs to be this and

821
01:11:15,900 --> 01:11:24,420
another thing, another place has been never talked about the likelihood, or the costs, okay?

822
01:11:24,960 --> 01:11:30,760
All that you mentioned in this, your filing, your comments,

823
01:11:33,020 --> 01:11:34,260
not your clients' comments,

824
01:11:34,360 --> 01:11:37,660
your comments, that it was $8 to $10 million.

825
01:11:38,120 --> 01:11:44,620
Subject to the fact that we don't know how much we're going to need maybe 20 acres of greenfield, okay?

826
01:11:44,620 --> 01:11:47,600
And I'm thinking, okay, that's a concern.

827
01:11:48,520 --> 01:11:52,760
$8 million or $5.6 million is I did the math from the ALJ.

828
01:11:53,220 --> 01:11:57,740
That's at over a 30% increase to the cost of this project on to rate players.

829
01:11:57,940 --> 01:11:59,920
And I'm getting a less reliable system.

830
01:11:59,940 --> 01:12:03,040
And then you said, well, if we need it, well, okay,

831
01:12:03,420 --> 01:12:04,740
that's what your comment said.

832
01:12:05,380 --> 01:12:07,280
What does she cite to say this?

833
01:12:07,560 --> 01:12:10,200
And I tracked down the sites and it goes nowhere.

834
01:12:10,960 --> 01:12:12,460
It comes from you.

835
01:12:12,460 --> 01:12:20,260
Okay, so unless you have some great expertise on this area, I don't know what I can do to rely on this.

836
01:12:20,300 --> 01:12:28,360
And then I look into the record even further on page 15 of the EA, it says that you're going to build a substation.

837
01:12:28,880 --> 01:12:39,480
And you're going to build that substation on 8.9 acres, but you're only going to use 1.5 and the equipment only sits on 0.03, a third of an acre.

838
01:12:39,480 --> 01:12:56,700
Okay, in that substation you are going to put a transformer and two breakers and a whole bunch of other facilities for for almost five million dollars, maybe, okay, and then the transmission assets going in there cost about two million dollars.

839
01:12:56,740 --> 01:13:06,600
This is in the EA, okay, and then I find out in the EA that a breaker station needs to sit on on an eight by eight concrete pad, okay,

840
01:13:07,100 --> 01:13:15,640
And now I'm told that do you need to have something between Victoria Station and Augusta Station which doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me because I'm not an engineer.

841
01:13:16,080 --> 01:13:23,220
I have no engineering explanation. Why that is other than there is an imbalance that we may have to do at some point in the future.

842
01:13:24,040 --> 01:13:36,000
That could cost. Why do you need 20 acres? Why couldn't it be an existing Augusta or Victoria substation between those two if that's what you really need? There's no explanation of that.

843
01:13:36,000 --> 01:13:42,660
Okay, so I have a substation that you can build this distribution station for $4 million.

844
01:13:43,540 --> 01:13:54,520
I have transmission assets you can put into that substation for $2 million, but all of a sudden now I'm being told in your memo that it's $8 to $10 million and I need to buy 20 acres.

845
01:13:54,940 --> 01:13:59,900
Oh, happens to be that if I need to 20 acres in this area, it's high demand property.

846
01:14:00,120 --> 01:14:04,740
It's pretty expensive property, so if I wanted to inflate the value of something, what would I do?

847
01:14:04,740 --> 01:14:06,500
I would add more acres, I don't need.

848
01:14:07,280 --> 01:14:10,120
So I'm sitting here now and I try to track it down

849
01:14:10,120 --> 01:14:14,260
and your late filings just basically repeated the same thing.

850
01:14:14,740 --> 01:14:18,500
I am left with nothing on the cost.

851
01:14:19,360 --> 01:14:23,260
So help me out where on Earth to this $8 to $10 million

852
01:14:23,260 --> 01:14:24,520
because I have a problem.

853
01:14:24,960 --> 01:14:26,600
If I select alternative B,

854
01:14:27,260 --> 01:14:29,860
I could be impacting landowners up to $8 million

855
01:14:29,860 --> 01:14:34,000
or a 30% increase in the cost of this project.

856
01:14:34,000 --> 01:14:41,520
and giving them maybe a less reliable project or I pick the proposed route, okay?

857
01:14:41,940 --> 01:14:47,900
I'm looking a little arbitrary and capricious because I really don't know what the actual reliability problem is.

858
01:14:48,440 --> 01:14:49,420
So did we miss something?

859
01:14:49,440 --> 01:14:54,420
I asked our staff, find this $8 to $10 million, where is this number coming from?

860
01:14:54,420 --> 01:14:59,980
Help me out and we can't find anything in the record other than you stating it in one.

861
01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:01,940
Comment, after the EA.

862
01:15:04,320 --> 01:15:04,900
Thank

863
01:15:07,880 --> 01:15:11,920
you, Chair Steven commissioner, commissioner, commissioner, commissioner,

864
01:15:11,960 --> 01:15:16,080
commissioner, commissioner, commissioner, correct that we provided that information in response to the EA,

865
01:15:16,580 --> 01:15:22,220
because we thought that that was useful information for the commission to have.

866
01:15:22,760 --> 01:15:27,120
It was, if I knew where it came from. That's the problem I'm having right now.

867
01:15:27,120 --> 01:15:34,760
Yep, and that's that's the estimate from from the subject matter experts at the applicants and I think

868
01:15:34,760 --> 01:15:39,480
No subject matter expert. There is no citation to any subject matter expert

869
01:15:40,440 --> 01:15:48,700
There's no citation to any breakdown of it. Why it was eight to ten million dollars no citation whatsoever and bringing it at this time

870
01:15:49,340 --> 01:15:56,240
When it should have been put into the EA when it was asked for by Mr. Hicks is what's causing your problems right now

871
01:15:57,960 --> 01:16:00,960
Can I ask you a question that is argumentative?

872
01:16:05,080 --> 01:16:07,100
Is it not what we've been doing?

873
01:16:08,080 --> 01:16:10,500
As long as it's not about the packers, we don't know.

874
01:16:11,300 --> 01:16:12,380
They're going to be good.

875
01:16:14,760 --> 01:16:16,120
That's true statement.

876
01:16:19,700 --> 01:16:26,980
So, but one of the things that kind of acts as me about the cost thing is they're caught.

877
01:16:28,020 --> 01:16:29,020
They're not regulated.

878
01:16:29,020 --> 01:16:42,540
So why is it I mean if they say they can do it they've seems like they have a they've said they can make route B work and there's a cost issue

879
01:16:42,540 --> 01:16:44,300
But we don't regulate

880
01:16:45,140 --> 01:16:51,020
They're rate pairs or should we and that's a good point and here's my problem with that is that

881
01:16:51,920 --> 01:16:57,400
I don't rate regulate them, but the factors specifically say I

882
01:16:57,400 --> 01:17:01,920
need to consider cost and reliability of the system down the road. So it really is a reliability

883
01:17:01,920 --> 01:17:08,220
question. I have something along the lines of a reliability concern. I don't know how reliable

884
01:17:08,220 --> 01:17:13,180
it's going to be because I don't want to have to build some infrastructure on Excel's line

885
01:17:13,180 --> 01:17:18,760
down the road or some other line because the lack of reliability and so I have to take into account

886
01:17:18,760 --> 01:17:23,720
the factors specifically says not only the cost of the facility but the cost of operation.

887
01:17:23,720 --> 01:17:27,340
And so that's where I'm feeling a huge deficit.

888
01:17:28,160 --> 01:17:31,900
I see with Commissioner Wickwann, he knows better and I do this stuff, so I'll let him.

889
01:17:32,440 --> 01:17:33,940
He's, he's, and she's a good answer.

890
01:17:34,040 --> 01:17:36,760
Yeah, thank you, Chair Stephen. I have a question to applicants.

891
01:17:38,120 --> 01:17:43,920
So in the beginning, when you're waving off EA request from our staff,

892
01:17:45,900 --> 01:17:49,980
what kind of a nerve reliability requirement did you consider?

893
01:17:50,540 --> 01:17:53,280
And then what is the potential violation under that?

894
01:17:55,200 --> 01:18:01,720
Thank you for the question. I am going to bring up some help to answer that question.

895
01:18:10,350 --> 01:18:13,850
Welcome to the discussion. Please see your name for the record.

896
01:18:16,090 --> 01:18:22,690
My name is Nick Gotter. I work for Grover Energy, I'm a transmission planning engineer.

897
01:18:24,030 --> 01:18:38,110
So, your question, Commissioner of NIRC reliability issue, so there was no NIRC reliability issue with any of the proposed routes or route alternatives.

898
01:18:39,290 --> 01:18:51,150
In this case, there was a slight advantage to our proposed route in terms of the amount of load exposure that we reduced on the transmission circuit.

899
01:18:51,150 --> 01:19:08,050
So although from a nerf standpoint, all of the routes would be acceptable, local planning criteria that we have and a lot of other transmission owners have sort of look to how much load in terms of megawatts that you serve on a circuit.

900
01:19:08,330 --> 01:19:14,910
And if you can reduce the amount of megawatts, then it means the impact of an outage on that circuit is going to be less.

901
01:19:14,910 --> 01:19:21,990
So, the biggest advantage in terms of reliability will be building the new distribution

902
01:19:21,990 --> 01:19:28,490
succession, because that will provide enhanced reliability to all the end users in the

903
01:19:28,490 --> 01:19:36,250
Minnesota Valley Electropositive members, but the proposed route allowed us to add that

904
01:19:36,250 --> 01:19:41,450
Busthy break to split the transmission circuit, and that just was a enhanced reliability

905
01:19:41,450 --> 01:19:47,850
in terms of, can we, you know, reduce the number of distribution

906
01:19:47,850 --> 01:19:52,890
endpoints on a circuit by splitting it into and also reduce the amount of megawatt

907
01:19:52,890 --> 01:19:54,710
loss for an outage.

908
01:19:56,860 --> 01:19:59,600
Okay, so given what you just said,

909
01:20:00,000 --> 01:20:07,380
Now, we want to be a no-one with lively violation with alternate route B. At this point, right?

910
01:20:08,200 --> 01:20:14,240
Okay, good. So, now about an even loading issue with the one contingency.

911
01:20:15,900 --> 01:20:21,860
Which low the will have that negative impact if you don't build that switch station?

912
01:20:23,300 --> 01:20:48,420
So I mean, the effect of an outage if we didn't have any sexualisings and Obraco would mean that at any point on that transmission circuit between Westbrookonia and Scott County, which is where the breakers are currently, any fault on that line would trip those breakers and would be an outage of all of the distribution substations.

913
01:20:48,420 --> 01:20:54,160
By splitting it, I mean it would mean that we'd have to have an in East Outage or a West

914
01:20:54,160 --> 01:21:00,480
Outage and that would only affect half the number of end users, the Minnesota Department.

915
01:21:01,140 --> 01:21:06,100
My question is, which companies load will be harmed from it?

916
01:21:06,320 --> 01:21:13,560
Because we need to know that because if it'll harm Excel energy, load, yes, it's a different issue.

917
01:21:13,560 --> 01:21:22,100
Yes, all the Excel energy load is on the east side, so the east and circuit, if we

918
01:21:22,100 --> 01:21:28,340
would just split it at Lake Town, so everything from Lake Town back to the circuit towards

919
01:21:28,340 --> 01:21:34,920
the locality, that would have the highest impact of an outage because it would lose the

920
01:21:34,920 --> 01:21:40,140
cell energy loads, as well as half roughly, minus 8 to that.

921
01:21:41,260 --> 01:21:43,920
So, mean value load will be a harm, potentially,

922
01:21:46,080 --> 01:21:49,520
under that circumstance, right?

923
01:21:50,880 --> 01:21:54,580
I mean, it's a second sense of if an outage were to occur.

924
01:21:55,280 --> 01:22:00,180
So, you know, adding a break, it doesn't reduce the likelihood of an outage.

925
01:22:00,180 --> 01:22:02,000
It just means the effect will be lessons.

926
01:22:02,000 --> 01:22:15,320
No, no, that's why I'm trying to say that without that break a station, which Lord will get potential harm, you guys claim when you're waving off that alternate route B.

927
01:22:17,580 --> 01:22:23,100
Well, without saying to grout B, if we have to add a breaker?

928
01:22:24,100 --> 01:22:26,100
No, without adding a breaker.

929
01:22:26,100 --> 01:22:29,340
And then we'd be in the same point as we are today

930
01:22:29,340 --> 01:22:32,300
in terms of all of the load on that circuit

931
01:22:33,120 --> 01:22:35,240
is going to be effected by a fault.

932
01:22:36,120 --> 01:22:39,380
So, are you saying that there will be no incremental harm

933
01:22:39,940 --> 01:22:43,200
but it will reduce potential benefit

934
01:22:43,200 --> 01:22:44,720
of building this line?

935
01:22:48,800 --> 01:22:51,800
So, I mean, the potential increase in harm

936
01:22:51,800 --> 01:22:53,740
would be more load on the circuit.

937
01:22:55,280 --> 01:22:56,160
More megawatts.

938
01:22:57,220 --> 01:22:57,280
Okay.

939
01:23:00,220 --> 01:23:06,940
Okay, so the reason I'm asking this is, once again, we want to make sure that if this

940
01:23:06,940 --> 01:23:13,820
alternative route B is selected, Excel energy customers should be incrementally harmed from

941
01:23:13,820 --> 01:23:19,360
it, but based on your conversation, there will be no incremental harm to the Excel energy

942
01:23:19,360 --> 01:23:19,920
customer.

943
01:23:21,260 --> 01:23:25,980
Yeah, I would say Excel energy customers would be in pretty much the same position they are today.

944
01:23:25,980 --> 01:23:52,200
Okay, so thank you, along the line of a question, I'll discuss a little bit of a cause issue, so under your proposed route, preferred route, what is your current cause allocation agreement between GRE and in Valley, in Valley will own that new substation, and GRE will own and operate that transmission line.

945
01:23:52,200 --> 01:23:58,980
On the desk circumstances, who's paying what and who is going to pay later to the others?

946
01:24:05,550 --> 01:24:08,650
Chair Steven Kushner, thank you for the question.

947
01:24:08,930 --> 01:24:12,870
We have the cost break down in the application and I'll find it here in a second.

948
01:24:13,070 --> 01:24:17,350
I'm going to need to ask someone from the company about the going forward piece.

949
01:24:18,130 --> 01:24:19,430
I don't need the exact number.

950
01:24:19,570 --> 01:24:26,730
I want to compare that with if you go with alternate route B, what will be a potential change in the cost allocation?

951
01:24:29,140 --> 01:24:33,520
We may need a minute to discuss that if we could.

952
01:24:34,880 --> 01:24:35,020
Yeah.

953
01:24:35,860 --> 01:24:41,520
In that case, we'll the Excel energy customer will bear any cost of it.

954
01:24:51,970 --> 01:24:52,890
Sure, Steven Commissioner.

955
01:24:53,670 --> 01:24:59,630
I don't think any of us at the table know, but we have folks in the room that I can talk to here in a minute.

956
01:25:00,000 --> 01:25:06,280
Thank you. We're going to take a break. The Commission will stand and recess for 10 minutes and come back at 11 and 40.

957
01:36:34,000 --> 01:36:43,860
The commission will come back from its recess and Commissioner Tuma were going to keep moving towards a resolution here.

958
01:36:45,260 --> 01:37:03,300
So I know there are other people that want to speak to, but can you give us like a sense of what you think where we're headed and kind of like who we need to hear from your estimation to continue to make a decision today on next steps.

959
01:37:03,300 --> 01:37:12,540
Yeah, I'm going to share, I think we're in a bad position because the EA, which is a document that we rely on, heavily in our decisions,

960
01:37:13,540 --> 01:37:20,240
and it's no fault of Mr. Hicks by any means. I think your EA was very good. You asked the right question.

961
01:37:20,480 --> 01:37:28,980
It's up to the applicant to provide the right information for us to make a decision, and when they throw it in a reliability concern that could be a 30% increase

962
01:37:28,980 --> 01:37:36,680
at the last minute without giving a satisfactory explanation so that we as commissioners can make a decision

963
01:37:36,680 --> 01:37:38,080
is problematic.

964
01:37:38,620 --> 01:37:46,300
So I think at this stage, Madam Chair, we cannot make a decision between alternative BS suggested by the ALJ,

965
01:37:47,000 --> 01:37:51,460
or the proposed route without getting a supplement to the EA.

966
01:37:51,460 --> 01:38:00,460
And then I feel that it's best because as we've seen, there is a lot of desire to give input here,

967
01:38:00,460 --> 01:38:03,140
and that's what ALJs do, and they do well.

968
01:38:03,980 --> 01:38:07,960
And my feeling is that we should remand it to the ALJ.

969
01:38:08,520 --> 01:38:14,480
We have that authority now, and that let the ALJ put the record together as opposed to noticing comment,

970
01:38:14,480 --> 01:38:22,320
because we have lots of applications that are coming in front of us and to slow our staff down

971
01:38:22,320 --> 01:38:28,980
to do a notice and comment and try to get the record together with this kind of input that we're getting so far

972
01:38:28,980 --> 01:38:34,460
is going to be really hard and that's what ALJs do well and I think we can narrow the question down

973
01:38:34,460 --> 01:38:40,980
to these two routes and narrow it down so that we're talking about these reliability questions

974
01:38:40,980 --> 01:39:10,420
And we can ask the SKL, that's one of the questions I ask the ALJ and my thing is ask Excel what's going on here so that we can hear from them and we understand the complexity of this decision and understand a better what is an estimate of the cost of this reliability concern and how likely could is it is a data center comes in there, it's going to kick on or is it going to be five townhouses above what the city of Carver was planning.

975
01:39:10,420 --> 01:39:15,500
Okay, I don't know that and the record doesn't tell me that and I can't make a decision.

976
01:39:16,180 --> 01:39:19,360
I think unless the EA is supplemented to do that.

977
01:39:19,360 --> 01:39:20,940
So that's what I'm trying to think through.

978
01:39:21,320 --> 01:39:26,040
That's why I put the decision option together the way I did was to get more information.

979
01:39:26,560 --> 01:39:29,280
I think it's valuable to have an independent expert.

980
01:39:29,520 --> 01:39:33,880
I'm willing to hear what your guys' feeling is on that.

981
01:39:34,180 --> 01:39:36,040
I certainly think it would be beneficial for us.

982
01:39:36,040 --> 01:39:45,720
So I think the decision option I've put together accomplishes what we need to do, so that the citizens have a chance to still get input in.

983
01:39:46,260 --> 01:39:59,980
And we also can let the people who are on alternative B, we saw this, remember the Potter situation in the XL line, where we picked the alternative that the landowners suggested, and then the other landowners had no clue. They're probably sitting there. It's all turned.

984
01:40:00,000 --> 01:40:08,940
There's an alternative A ahead of me and the proposed route. I think they need to be forewarned. This is serious. It's these two routes.

985
01:40:09,920 --> 01:40:18,060
That's why I put the decision option together. I think it allows a better record to be developed. It allows the EA to be supplemented.

986
01:40:18,600 --> 01:40:27,780
That's my thinking. The only question I would have for the applicant is, as I think we can get that done by January through the ALJ.

987
01:40:27,780 --> 01:40:34,080
we can ask them, I put it in my decision option, to get a report back from the ALJ by

988
01:40:34,080 --> 01:40:41,180
I would think January 31, given the fact that you're not starting this project until 2027,

989
01:40:41,680 --> 01:40:49,220
I would think having a decision from an ALJ by end of January, and a decision from us earlier

990
01:40:49,220 --> 01:40:55,000
winter would be more than enough time. I know that it's not what you want, but it would seem

991
01:40:55,000 --> 01:40:59,860
to me that if that is the time frame, you could do that, giving our chance, a self-auchance

992
01:40:59,860 --> 01:41:00,860
to get some more input.

993
01:41:02,720 --> 01:41:03,440
That's a little bit,

994
01:41:06,020 --> 01:41:11,500
thank you, Chair Seven, if I just wanted to circle back to the question

995
01:41:11,500 --> 01:41:16,920
that we ended on before the break and make sure that I can answer Commissioner Homes question

996
01:41:16,920 --> 01:41:21,840
if I may and then turn to the schedule piece if that's all right.

997
01:41:23,100 --> 01:41:30,380
So, conferred with the folks at Great River Energy and bear with me on my terminology here,

998
01:41:30,900 --> 01:41:36,420
but as I understand it both the proposed route and route alternative B are in a joint pricing zone with Excel.

999
01:41:36,600 --> 01:41:46,460
So both projects will have some cost to excel incremental incremental costs right in the cost to excel will be based on the final cost of the project.

1000
01:41:46,460 --> 01:42:00,960
So where was it today with Route Alternative B being a lesser cost right now than the proposed route that would be how that's shared with Excel?

1001
01:42:04,690 --> 01:42:14,050
And then with respect to the timing and the records supplementation,

1002
01:42:15,550 --> 01:42:26,710
We address this in our filing earlier this week and in the applicant's view, the EA does accurately represent the costs of the proposal.

1003
01:42:26,850 --> 01:42:29,170
I don't think it does.

1004
01:42:29,750 --> 01:42:36,710
Okay, so my question was, if I ask for more EA information, okay, and I ask it to be done by an ALJ.

1005
01:42:36,810 --> 01:42:43,470
If we get an ALJ report by Jan, end of January, is that more than enough time for your client to get their job done,

1006
01:42:43,470 --> 01:42:46,450
if they're not going to start construction until 2027.

1007
01:42:48,560 --> 01:42:51,200
Chair, Stephen Kushner, Tuma, thank you for the question.

1008
01:42:51,580 --> 01:42:53,680
We did talk about this.

1009
01:42:55,080 --> 01:42:59,540
And as our comments noted, there is some flexibility in the schedule with respect to the

1010
01:42:59,540 --> 01:43:00,900
proposed route right now.

1011
01:43:01,160 --> 01:43:06,800
The same is not true for route alternative B because route alternative B requires interconnection

1012
01:43:06,800 --> 01:43:07,600
to excel, right?

1013
01:43:07,600 --> 01:43:09,400
And that process takes time.

1014
01:43:09,400 --> 01:43:14,960
And so we have some real concerns if we're going to have more

1015
01:43:14,960 --> 01:43:18,340
process, if there's an ALJ report at the end of January,

1016
01:43:18,820 --> 01:43:22,800
then probably we're looking at a decision in March or April, right?

1017
01:43:25,440 --> 01:43:27,980
That's five or six months from today, right?

1018
01:43:29,080 --> 01:43:30,660
That's pushing that off.

1019
01:43:31,020 --> 01:43:32,380
I can't say if you ask Excel now.

1020
01:43:32,560 --> 01:43:33,940
I mean, that's part of the problem.

1021
01:43:34,120 --> 01:43:36,520
That's why I asked you to put in there and you said,

1022
01:43:36,960 --> 01:43:37,940
you didn't need to ask them.

1023
01:43:38,120 --> 01:43:39,640
That's what your response said.

1024
01:43:39,640 --> 01:43:40,980
You didn't need to ask them.

1025
01:43:40,980 --> 01:43:45,180
Okay, that's what I read, maybe I'm reading it wrong, you said you didn't need to ask them.

1026
01:43:45,200 --> 01:43:46,580
Now you're telling me it's a problem.

1027
01:43:47,200 --> 01:43:53,180
Okay, this is a little exasperating, that's what I wanted to process to include Excel,

1028
01:43:53,640 --> 01:43:56,220
so that we get the question out to them right away,

1029
01:43:56,540 --> 01:43:59,760
and we know what it, when we get to the decision, it is set,

1030
01:43:59,780 --> 01:44:04,340
so that we can actually make a logical decision between alternative B,

1031
01:44:04,720 --> 01:44:09,700
knowing the reliability concerns, knowing Excel's concerns versus the proposed route.

1032
01:44:11,000 --> 01:44:16,620
Chair, Stephen, Commissioner Chuma, thank you, yes, with respect to the commission's process

1033
01:44:16,620 --> 01:44:21,240
understand the interconnection process I was referencing is the separate process right

1034
01:44:21,240 --> 01:44:26,720
to formally request to interconnect to excel facilities that occurs separately from the

1035
01:44:26,720 --> 01:44:28,060
commission process.

1036
01:44:28,440 --> 01:44:32,120
We would know more about that in the EA, which we don't have right now, because you didn't

1037
01:44:32,120 --> 01:44:33,360
put it in the EA.

1038
01:44:38,110 --> 01:44:43,450
Madam Chair, I see where the discussion is going, I don't know what your feelings are.

1039
01:44:43,450 --> 01:44:52,610
I think we need more process and I think it's best that an ALJ do it just because it is

1040
01:44:52,610 --> 01:44:57,210
already coming to be problematic and it's going to end up looking a lot like the Potter

1041
01:44:57,730 --> 01:44:59,970
Rosa situation if we don't get the AL.

1042
01:45:00,000 --> 01:45:05,920
I'll get the ALJ out there and have a process to get input. That's how I was thinking.

1043
01:45:07,260 --> 01:45:09,660
Commissioner or Commissioner Partridge.

1044
01:45:12,240 --> 01:45:13,000
Thank you, Chair Sivan.

1045
01:45:14,520 --> 01:45:23,640
So I want to just take us to a higher level, which is that there is an extreme amount of controversy around four miles of transmission.

1046
01:45:24,840 --> 01:45:37,860
And it seems like the level of controversy and the issues that are before us are just proportional to the size of this line.

1047
01:45:38,280 --> 01:45:45,260
And it is something that I think needs to be worked out that I don't think that there's enough in the record.

1048
01:45:45,260 --> 01:45:49,160
I know Commissioner Tuma has done the math on it.

1049
01:45:49,560 --> 01:45:51,300
We're talking about an estimate.

1050
01:45:51,860 --> 01:45:52,960
I don't know if this is public.

1051
01:45:53,120 --> 01:45:54,780
I can't remember if any of this is trade secret.

1052
01:45:55,540 --> 01:46:04,060
But $10 million different on either side of your estimated cost for B is very significant.

1053
01:46:05,060 --> 01:46:09,820
And while you are not rate regulated, it could have implications for other rate pairs.

1054
01:46:09,880 --> 01:46:14,260
And I think that there needs to be more record development about it and about the reliability implications.

1055
01:46:14,260 --> 01:46:21,720
locations. In my opinion, the most important thing in Commissioner Tuma's proposed decision options

1056
01:46:21,720 --> 01:46:29,480
is 5BE, which is that I think you need to work more closely with landowners and local

1057
01:46:29,480 --> 01:46:35,220
units of government to come up with four miles that will work for everyone.

1058
01:46:37,300 --> 01:46:38,560
That's all I'll

1059
01:46:38,560 --> 01:46:42,940
say is that I understand that you can't make everybody happy and I want landowners to understand

1060
01:46:42,940 --> 01:46:49,620
that. These are critical pieces of infrastructure that serve your community with reliable

1061
01:46:49,620 --> 01:46:57,860
electricity. So it is not, you know, there are trade-offs we want to accommodate your needs

1062
01:46:57,860 --> 01:47:03,820
as much as possible, but we also have to have these pieces of infrastructure so that you have

1063
01:47:03,820 --> 01:47:10,940
lights and air conditioning in stores. And so we want everybody to work together to find

1064
01:47:10,940 --> 01:47:19,080
workable solution. And I don't see that here. And I think there are too many unknowns.

1065
01:47:19,640 --> 01:47:26,280
I don't agree that we have the information we need to go with alternative B. So I support

1066
01:47:26,280 --> 01:47:32,460
additional record development and I really encourage the applicant to work closely with landowners.

1067
01:47:32,620 --> 01:47:38,900
And I encourage landowners to please work collaboratively. I understand that you're frustrated about

1068
01:47:38,900 --> 01:47:45,040
the process that came before, but I really ask that we all work together now going forward

1069
01:47:45,040 --> 01:47:53,620
to come up with a solution that everybody can live with and to ensure that we are serving

1070
01:47:53,620 --> 01:47:58,120
customers with reliable adequate electricity in your community.

1071
01:47:58,860 --> 01:48:01,720
And so I support Commissioner Tuma as a proposal.

1072
01:48:03,140 --> 01:48:07,700
And just to be clear, I know there are other people online that want to speak and address

1073
01:48:07,700 --> 01:48:13,400
a matter, but if we move forward with the process or the further record development that

1074
01:48:13,400 --> 01:48:22,400
Commissioner and Tuma is outlining, then there will be further time and consideration for folks

1075
01:48:22,400 --> 01:48:31,580
who are concerned to weigh in with the OAH or the CH, as it's now decided.

1076
01:48:31,580 --> 01:48:50,760
So thank you for the final decision. That's made it. Right. There's not a final decision. That's being made. And so we could spend another couple hours listening to folks talk about the different alternatives, but if we're moving forward with Commissioner Tuma's new five B, which

1077
01:48:50,760 --> 01:48:59,860
make sense to me based on what we've heard today and review of the record, like I think we can keep moving forward at this time.

1078
01:49:01,100 --> 01:49:01,900
Commissioner Ham.

1079
01:49:03,660 --> 01:49:04,200
Thank you.

1080
01:49:04,780 --> 01:49:08,300
Chair, Stephen, I agree that I think we need to develop the records.

1081
01:49:09,540 --> 01:49:13,520
Can I ask a couple of questions to the applicants for the facts?

1082
01:49:14,080 --> 01:49:20,140
Is this project in the 2023 by annual transmission line report or will it be in the 2025?

1083
01:49:23,170 --> 01:49:26,090
I'm sorry, I'm just giving me one moment please.

1084
01:49:26,170 --> 01:49:29,130
Along the line, or so, is it in the MISOM tab?

1085
01:49:32,010 --> 01:49:34,910
Yes, it is in M tab and in the 2025.

1086
01:49:36,310 --> 01:49:39,130
So, it will be in the 2025,

1087
01:49:39,130 --> 01:49:42,170
if I any old transmission line project report,

1088
01:49:42,530 --> 01:49:45,050
which will be filed in November first.

1089
01:49:46,370 --> 01:49:47,250
Yes, I believe so.

1090
01:49:47,570 --> 01:49:50,250
Is it going to be in the M tab 2025,

1091
01:49:50,670 --> 01:49:53,390
or is it led in the M tab in 2024?

1092
01:49:53,930 --> 01:49:58,910
I believe that is in M.T.P. 2024, it is already in M.T.P.

1093
01:49:58,910 --> 01:49:59,030
Okay.

1094
01:49:59,270 --> 01:49:59,530
So.

1095
01:50:00,000 --> 01:50:07,120
Certain record is already developed in the M-Tectony 24, then. Can you supplement that in when we are developing

1096
01:50:07,120 --> 01:50:07,920
these records?

1097
01:50:11,200 --> 01:50:16,660
Whatever you provide to the MISO, engineering study and everything, because as Commissioner

1098
01:50:16,660 --> 01:50:24,340
Tuma is frustrated with, we have a claim, but we do not have evidence here. So if you have

1099
01:50:24,340 --> 01:50:28,700
provide any engineering information to MISO for M-Tect 2024.

1100
01:50:29,580 --> 01:50:34,640
Why can't you just provide that information in your upcoming record development?

1101
01:50:38,740 --> 01:50:42,980
The information provided as this part of M-Tect was the addition of the load.

1102
01:50:46,430 --> 01:50:48,530
You cannot just give a MISO with the picture.

1103
01:50:48,970 --> 01:50:56,810
You have to have engineering information given to them so they can incorporate into their M-Tect 2024 evaluation, right?

1104
01:50:57,530 --> 01:51:03,050
Yes, we provided them with the model data, the addition of the load, the amount of

1105
01:51:03,050 --> 01:51:07,950
mevel watts, and the reporting, stating there's no circuit issues.

1106
01:51:08,250 --> 01:51:10,850
Yes, that's what I meant.

1107
01:51:10,990 --> 01:51:12,390
Can you provide that as evidence?

1108
01:51:18,150 --> 01:51:24,210
I think I'm a little out of sync with where things are going, I'm not going to die in the

1109
01:51:24,210 --> 01:51:27,910
hill, but I just want to ask the company.

1110
01:51:29,530 --> 01:51:34,370
Is there a reliability issue with alternative B?

1111
01:51:36,320 --> 01:51:37,940
Sure, Steven Commissioner Sullivan.

1112
01:51:38,240 --> 01:51:41,820
I think you heard Mr. Gauder say that not both, both

1113
01:51:41,820 --> 01:51:43,160
route alternatives are reliable.

1114
01:51:43,840 --> 01:51:47,760
The proposed route presents some reliability benefits as compared to

1115
01:51:47,760 --> 01:51:50,400
route alternative B, but both alternatives are reliable.

1116
01:51:51,460 --> 01:51:55,900
So like, I did hear it and that's why I just want to be really clear.

1117
01:51:56,240 --> 01:51:58,460
Like I don't.

1118
01:51:58,460 --> 01:52:04,760
I think their record is sufficient right now to make a decision to order alternative

1119
01:52:04,760 --> 01:52:06,000
to be.

1120
01:52:06,980 --> 01:52:09,520
I don't think that the cost issue,

1121
01:52:11,880 --> 01:52:15,420
we don't regulate, gerry, and it's not our right

1122
01:52:15,420 --> 01:52:21,060
pairs that are going to be impacted if there is a cost increase or there is cost.

1123
01:52:21,500 --> 01:52:24,680
So, you know, but I just want, let me finish the point.

1124
01:52:25,380 --> 01:52:32,420
So, from my perspective, I think, you know, the environmental assessment, you know, said this is a viable alternative.

1125
01:52:34,240 --> 01:52:41,160
And I think we could do it, but I'm not going to, I'm not going to die in the hill, but I think it's imperative that we get infrastructure built.

1126
01:52:41,940 --> 01:52:45,100
And that's where my head is at, but I'm not going to die in the hill.

1127
01:52:45,200 --> 01:52:46,500
Commissioner, how am I?

1128
01:52:48,560 --> 01:52:49,420
Commissioner, how?

1129
01:52:49,640 --> 01:52:50,580
Thank you, Chair Steven.

1130
01:52:50,580 --> 01:52:56,360
I think according to applicant, it will be Excel energy generated, joint pricing zone.

1131
01:52:56,820 --> 01:52:59,940
So Excel energy customer will bear any incremental cost.

1132
01:53:01,420 --> 01:53:04,920
And that's, they're for me they just don't have, Commissioner Solomon.

1133
01:53:04,960 --> 01:53:09,880
I just don't have it and to make a decision I think right now and selecting either one

1134
01:53:09,880 --> 01:53:13,020
of the two routes puts me clearly an arbitrary capricious.

1135
01:53:13,160 --> 01:53:18,300
So if you're wanting to get this built quickly, okay, it's not going to get built quickly

1136
01:53:18,300 --> 01:53:22,780
it ends up in district corps and in the court of appeals. And that's the part that really

1137
01:53:22,780 --> 01:53:27,820
bothers me about how we got to where we're at is that they had an opportunity to supplement

1138
01:53:27,820 --> 01:53:32,960
the record. They didn't do it. They didn't answer the question. They should have answered. It's not

1139
01:53:32,960 --> 01:53:38,320
our fault that this is not going forward. It's their fault for trying to bring up $8 million and

1140
01:53:38,320 --> 01:53:44,760
out of the blue credit or substitute towards the preferred route. Okay, and that's the problem that I have

1141
01:53:44,760 --> 01:53:51,280
right now is it's not a record that I feel confident it would hold up if, I mean, I've

1142
01:53:51,280 --> 01:53:55,240
seen this with several times where the courts have sent it back and say, oh, you should

1143
01:53:55,240 --> 01:54:00,320
have this in EA. It's not in EA. That's what the courts will look for right now. It's

1144
01:54:00,320 --> 01:54:01,240
not in the EA.

1145
01:54:01,760 --> 01:54:07,280
And to further bolster that point, if we send it back to the CAH now to correct this

1146
01:54:07,280 --> 01:54:15,040
efficiency, hopefully it will provide clarity to the applicants and to the public, the

1147
01:54:15,040 --> 01:54:22,140
participating townships and cities, and then hopefully the record will come back to us

1148
01:54:22,140 --> 01:54:26,620
with more support and will feel more confident than selecting the route.

1149
01:54:27,380 --> 01:54:34,000
So that's why I'm supportive of Commissioner Tuma's direction that he's headed as well.

1150
01:54:34,000 --> 01:54:43,300
I know that Dalgrin Township really wants to comment, you're welcome to say something briefly,

1151
01:54:44,080 --> 01:54:49,460
but we're trying to move forward on a decision here, which will give you more opportunity

1152
01:54:49,460 --> 01:54:56,600
I think to weigh in, but please state your name for the record and briefly provide your comments.

1153
01:54:57,620 --> 01:54:59,980
My name is Jeff Thompson, I'm an adult.

1154
01:55:01,980 --> 01:55:07,280
I guess it's a little frustration at this point that there is a public comment period,

1155
01:55:12,560 --> 01:55:13,320
more appropriate.

1156
01:55:16,130 --> 01:55:16,910
I'm trying to keep

1157
01:55:28,910 --> 01:55:32,230
all of your township has not been notified of any of these

1158
01:55:38,310 --> 01:55:41,170
kind of equipment kept in the dark after the original deal.

1159
01:55:41,830 --> 01:55:43,010
We weren't even really aware

1160
01:55:49,150 --> 01:55:53,270
that we're kind of been in the dark on this whole thing and feel a little frustrated.

1161
01:55:55,270 --> 01:56:03,750
I appreciate your comments and we will make sure that our staff, Mr. Lobby, will has your contact information.

1162
01:56:04,490 --> 01:56:07,430
I know you've been emailing him and in touch with him.

1163
01:56:07,450 --> 01:56:18,870
He'll send you an explanation of next steps for the townships involvement and help get you in touch with any other party that you want to.

1164
01:56:18,870 --> 01:56:28,230
So, thank you for providing your comments here today, and we appreciate you participating in our process here.

1165
01:56:28,850 --> 01:56:31,050
Commissioner Tuma, would you make a motion?

1166
01:56:31,930 --> 01:56:36,870
Madam Chair, I would move the decision option.

1167
01:56:36,870 --> 01:56:38,630
Good to come in front of me.

1168
01:56:38,790 --> 01:56:40,410
I've got all my notes all over the place.

1169
01:56:44,700 --> 01:56:46,140
To mortified one.

1170
01:56:51,920 --> 01:56:53,520
To mortified five.

1171
01:57:00,060 --> 01:57:01,440
to the new five,

1172
01:57:03,960 --> 01:57:04,140
A,

1173
01:57:06,670 --> 01:57:07,770
and to my new five,

1174
01:57:08,270 --> 01:57:13,550
B can I put in there to request that the mindset.

1175
01:57:15,650 --> 01:57:16,810
January 31.

1176
01:57:17,970 --> 01:57:18,950
Commissioner to my,

1177
01:57:19,150 --> 01:57:24,050
I think we need to hear from the applicant about the

1178
01:57:24,050 --> 01:57:29,410
dependent engineering consultant, or did we, did we hear?

1179
01:57:29,410 --> 01:57:34,270
Yeah, I'm going to talk to you, but I don't, I just, I'm sorry about the timing of having

1180
01:57:34,270 --> 01:57:39,970
the independent engineering consultant and still meeting that timeframe that was laid out

1181
01:57:39,970 --> 01:57:44,490
in B, so not that in five B.

1182
01:57:44,610 --> 01:57:50,830
I would look, Madam Chair, first EIP, whether they think it is of value, because they're going

1183
01:57:50,830 --> 01:57:58,270
want to supplement the record. We're putting you on the spot. Sorry. I did it so that our

1184
01:57:58,270 --> 01:58:04,390
staff didn't have to play engineer. And the idea is again, sorry, because we're just, I mean,

1185
01:58:04,510 --> 01:58:11,330
I know we got it a little bit, but because I'm trying to, we don't normally do this. Tell us

1186
01:58:11,950 --> 01:58:19,630
what the independent engineering consultant would analyze the reliability concerns of the different

1187
01:58:20,190 --> 01:58:24,850
alternative. So the record will be supplemented with information provided by them in the

1188
01:58:24,850 --> 01:58:29,490
E.A. And I just want to have an inquiry in the E.A.

1189
01:58:30,330 --> 01:58:35,570
And then I just want an independent engineer there. They exist. They're not a complicated task.

1190
01:58:36,130 --> 01:58:42,050
Just to do a check and look at it because I'm not an engineer. And to say yes, this is a concern.

1191
01:58:42,290 --> 01:58:47,910
And this is a fair reasonable estimated cost. I just don't have that in the record.

1192
01:58:47,910 --> 01:58:49,930
and who hires the independent engineer?

1193
01:58:50,090 --> 01:58:51,290
They would hire it.

1194
01:58:51,290 --> 01:58:52,070
DRE does.

1195
01:58:52,370 --> 01:58:58,490
And for us, but the executive secretary would be the one

1196
01:58:58,490 --> 01:59:00,450
that would approve it.

1197
01:59:02,240 --> 01:59:02,560
OK.

1198
01:59:02,800 --> 01:59:05,020
Record would be supplemented with that information.

1199
01:59:06,860 --> 01:59:08,220
Yes, thank you.

1200
01:59:08,460 --> 01:59:09,400
Madam Chair, Commissioner Tuma.

1201
01:59:09,900 --> 01:59:14,240
Logan Hicks, I did the environmental assessment.

1202
01:59:14,520 --> 01:59:17,280
As you guys know, yeah.

1203
01:59:17,280 --> 01:59:22,280
So I would prefer not to do any engineering analysis.

1204
01:59:23,400 --> 01:59:29,540
So if I had my brothers, I would say that I would prefer somebody, you know, I don't

1205
01:59:29,540 --> 01:59:33,400
know if we have anyone else to do it or if we have to hire a third party, then yeah, I would

1206
01:59:33,400 --> 01:59:39,180
prefer a third party engineer to do that analysis and then we could have them put that

1207
01:59:39,180 --> 01:59:42,440
in the record because I'm not an electrical engineer.

1208
01:59:43,480 --> 01:59:50,260
Yeah, I'm not either, but just wanted to make sure that this wouldn't slow anything down

1209
01:59:50,260 --> 01:59:58,220
any more than necessary and that those timelines are pretty, the judge can help figure

1210
01:59:58,220 --> 01:59:59,820
out the timeline.

1211
02:00:02,260 --> 02:00:26,320
I would hope that the applicant would do that in that just presents something to the ALJ in the executive secretary and then the executive secretary goes sign off on it. These people exist, okay, they don't, they're not not a known to them. And so I just want someone to know that we're asking an opinion of them regarding whether the information is accurate.

1212
02:00:27,200 --> 02:00:33,360
And Ms. Wallerpitz, your opinion or support of Tuma 5A.

1213
02:00:36,360 --> 02:00:37,480
Thank you, Chair Sivan.

1214
02:00:37,960 --> 02:00:41,060
We put in our comments earlier this week.

1215
02:00:41,540 --> 02:00:43,800
Not supportive of that option.

1216
02:00:44,560 --> 02:00:45,820
Because of the timeline issue,

1217
02:00:46,580 --> 02:00:49,520
I think we have very qualified people in

1218
02:00:49,520 --> 02:00:52,460
House who have already looked at this.

1219
02:00:52,520 --> 02:00:55,760
If the commission is going to require supplementation of the record,

1220
02:00:57,680 --> 02:01:02,200
We have qualified people that can do that and stick to the time frame.

1221
02:01:03,320 --> 02:01:04,500
But answer the question.

1222
02:01:04,860 --> 02:01:07,460
There are qualified people out there that can do an independent result.

1223
02:01:07,900 --> 02:01:10,180
And they can get us information because it's not that complicated.

1224
02:01:10,780 --> 02:01:13,720
And they could get it to us well before the end of January.

1225
02:01:17,360 --> 02:01:19,980
Commissioner Chuma, I don't know.

1226
02:01:20,240 --> 02:01:21,200
We haven't looked into that.

1227
02:01:21,380 --> 02:01:24,920
I can't speak to who that might be or what the timeline might be.

1228
02:01:24,980 --> 02:01:27,760
You've been around this enough to know the exist, but that's okay.

1229
02:01:30,350 --> 02:01:31,870
Okay.

1230
02:01:34,770 --> 02:01:41,310
Any other concern or questions about 5A? Commissioner or something else?

1231
02:01:41,730 --> 02:01:42,090
Commissioner Ham?

1232
02:01:43,050 --> 02:01:44,310
Is there something else?

1233
02:01:44,790 --> 02:01:45,650
Please go ahead.

1234
02:01:46,010 --> 02:01:46,770
Thank you, Chair Steven.

1235
02:01:48,450 --> 02:01:54,890
I think I repeatedly told many developers and applicants and I think other commission too.

1236
02:01:54,890 --> 02:02:02,970
I think applicants, you should treat people who is potentially hosting these infrastructure with respect.

1237
02:02:04,190 --> 02:02:15,650
And we request you to be a community member when you're showing up at the meeting, not as somebody showing up from the town and nothing to do with it.

1238
02:02:16,030 --> 02:02:22,270
You have to treat these potential folks as your neighbors.

1239
02:02:23,790 --> 02:02:31,710
I am very disappointed with how come on this issue because what I heard based on record, I don't

1240
02:02:31,710 --> 02:02:35,090
think people in that area was not respected.

1241
02:02:35,870 --> 02:02:42,730
So I hope this second chance you hopefully fixing that and then develop the good records

1242
02:02:42,730 --> 02:02:44,630
so we can make a good decision on it.

1243
02:02:49,050 --> 02:02:56,550
Okay, Commissioner Tuma. Is the motion clear? Any further discussion on the motion?

1244
02:02:58,450 --> 02:03:04,450
All those in favor, please say aye. Opposed? The motion prevails.

1245
02:03:07,740 --> 02:03:09,460
Thank you, everyone,

1246
02:03:09,740 --> 02:03:19,100
for your participation in that and we'll see it back here later. Why don't we need a quick break

1247
02:03:19,100 --> 02:03:20,540
before we do Sympath?

1248
02:03:20,760 --> 02:03:21,060
Yes.

1249
02:03:21,580 --> 02:03:22,360
Item four.

1250
02:03:23,280 --> 02:03:23,300
All right.

1251
02:03:25,240 --> 02:03:26,460
What could you want to lunch?

1252
02:03:30,700 --> 02:03:33,360
It sounds like we're going to.

1253
02:03:35,240 --> 02:03:35,440
Third.

1254
02:03:37,570 --> 02:03:41,670
Well, we're going to take a lunch break before we take up the next item.

1255
02:03:41,930 --> 02:03:44,530
I apologize to the Sympath folks who are probably waiting.

1256
02:03:47,450 --> 02:03:50,570
So we'll be come back at quarter to one.

1257
02:03:51,470 --> 02:03:53,570
The Commission stands in recess.

1258
02:51:41,140 --> 02:51:51,380
Apologies for the delay. The commission will come back from its recess and take up item number 4. Mr. Stulfis, please introduce the item.

1259
02:51:51,980 --> 02:52:05,980
Thank you, Chair. Item 4 is dock at number 189 slash rp-24-356. In the matter of southern Minnesota municipal power agencies 2025 to 2039 integrated resource plan.

1260
02:52:05,980 --> 02:52:12,780
The issues before the commission, or should the commission accept Simples 2025 to 2039

1261
02:52:12,780 --> 02:52:19,240
IRP, and should the commission adopt the Department of Commerce's June 2625 recommendations.

1262
02:52:20,300 --> 02:52:24,920
Parties have been informed that they'll have three minutes to address the decision options

1263
02:52:24,920 --> 02:52:28,880
or make any clarifying remarks if they would like to.

1264
02:52:29,400 --> 02:52:32,700
The parties in this case are Simpa and the Department of Commerce.

1265
02:52:32,700 --> 02:52:35,300
And that's all I have, but I'm available for questions.

1266
02:52:36,240 --> 02:52:37,820
Well, the parties please come forward.

1267
02:52:55,070 --> 02:52:57,270
Welcome, please see your name for the record.

1268
02:52:57,810 --> 02:52:59,990
And then go ahead and provide comments.

1269
02:53:02,120 --> 02:53:07,400
I am Joe Hoffman, Chief External Affairs Officer for Southern Minnesota Municipal Power.

1270
02:53:11,920 --> 02:53:16,340
Faculty Schmitz, with Sympa Manager of Planning and Analysis.

1271
02:53:18,910 --> 02:53:21,630
Good afternoon, Jeremy Sutton, Southern Minnesota Municipal Power Agency.

1272
02:53:27,280 --> 02:53:32,480
This is the open-up chair of commissioners, thank you for the opportunity to be here, thank you for the staff.

1273
02:53:33,040 --> 02:53:39,540
It's been a great opportunity to have this, the flexibility we appreciate as well.

1274
02:53:39,740 --> 02:53:43,460
We had some key retirements that I came in as well, I've been there year and a half now.

1275
02:53:43,600 --> 02:53:52,540
We had some pregnancies and it was great to work with staff to be able to move around and understand our limitations as a small organization, so it's much appreciated.

1276
02:53:52,540 --> 02:53:58,380
And with that, I can just jump right in with a few, probably 30 seconds opening comments.

1277
02:53:59,380 --> 02:54:02,700
We did have some uniqueness with this IRP iteration.

1278
02:54:03,020 --> 02:54:06,180
We had a member that was still deciding where they wanted to stay or not and doing their

1279
02:54:06,180 --> 02:54:08,200
due diligence with their studies.

1280
02:54:08,600 --> 02:54:13,640
Fortunately, they did come online, but it was too late in the process with key members out as

1281
02:54:13,640 --> 02:54:13,920
well.

1282
02:54:14,060 --> 02:54:19,220
So we did try to put that in there and put a placeholder with our 25% large load addition.

1283
02:54:19,220 --> 02:54:24,860
And then since then, knowing that this is a snapshot in time of a document, we continually

1284
02:54:24,860 --> 02:54:29,140
update it and we've run those and appreciate the opportunity to provide those updates.

1285
02:54:30,440 --> 02:54:33,760
And the other thing that I think is unique with CRP is choosing a plan.

1286
02:54:34,260 --> 02:54:40,020
We have our internal goals and our board is very proud of those goals as well to be 80% renewable

1287
02:54:40,800 --> 02:54:41,760
by 2030.

1288
02:54:42,020 --> 02:54:46,380
And we thought that it was prudent to, there's so many things moving in the industry right

1289
02:54:46,380 --> 02:54:51,360
with micro-regulations that we're trying to wrap our arms around with the carbon-free

1290
02:54:51,360 --> 02:54:56,800
standard that's come out now as well as pricing inputs that we're seeing now in

1291
02:54:56,800 --> 02:54:59,980
pricing pressure that we maintain that goal.

1292
02:55:00,000 --> 02:55:06,000
And there will be time with our next iteration of our IRP to address those. Thank you.

1293
02:55:07,820 --> 02:55:09,540
Okay, thank you. And for the department.

1294
02:55:12,100 --> 02:55:19,200
Thank you, Chair Steven, this Peter Tagland for the Department. Dr. Leib intends to deliver some opening remarks,

1295
02:55:19,520 --> 02:55:23,440
but unfortunately was pulled away by a family emergency that may take a few minutes to resolve.

1296
02:55:24,600 --> 02:55:29,200
Okay, so did you, are you comfortable with the comments that were submitted in the record, though?

1297
02:55:29,360 --> 02:55:33,160
And we can go ahead. We are comfortable with the comments submitted in the record. Thank you, Chair.

1298
02:55:33,160 --> 02:55:41,440
Okay, questions for the parties from commissioners.

1299
02:55:41,500 --> 02:55:42,360
Commissioner Sullivan.

1300
02:55:43,420 --> 02:55:44,400
Thank you, Chair Steven.

1301
02:55:44,540 --> 02:55:46,640
I mean, first of all, I've reviewed the record,

1302
02:55:47,200 --> 02:55:49,660
and I appreciate the work that Simpa has done.

1303
02:55:49,920 --> 02:55:52,580
I'm putting together a thoughtful resource plan.

1304
02:55:53,900 --> 02:55:56,300
You know, I had two questions.

1305
02:55:56,480 --> 02:56:01,360
One is that the least cost I'll turn it of is quite a bit.

1306
02:56:01,360 --> 02:56:07,880
I mean, it's pretty significant delta and price between that and the company's preferred

1307
02:56:07,880 --> 02:56:08,300
plan.

1308
02:56:08,460 --> 02:56:10,380
I've just wondered if you could just speak to that a little bit.

1309
02:56:10,440 --> 02:56:11,820
I think that would be helpful.

1310
02:56:13,720 --> 02:56:15,880
Yes, thank you, Chair Zeeb and commissioners.

1311
02:56:16,580 --> 02:56:23,420
The least cost alternative plan did have is purchasing a large portion of racks, and that's

1312
02:56:23,420 --> 02:56:31,260
why the base line is so cheap and then going forward, the next base case to our

1313
02:56:31,260 --> 02:56:36,080
shows in case, it really is the price of renewables right now and the pressure that we're getting

1314
02:56:36,080 --> 02:56:39,540
from my so on looking forward in 2032.

1315
02:56:41,560 --> 02:56:47,400
Their report has just basically 0% to 2% capacity credit for

1316
02:56:47,400 --> 02:56:52,680
solar. So that's what really pushed that for us to have. And then the with the direct loss of load

1317
02:56:52,680 --> 02:57:00,280
that we see coming in 2027 and 2028 really put price pressure on those items. Okay. Thank you. Yeah,

1318
02:57:00,280 --> 02:57:09,200
appreciate that concern. Another question I had is that, I mean, I don't know all, I know

1319
02:57:09,200 --> 02:57:17,500
that initially Rochester and Austin were going to pull out of Simpa. It's nice to see

1320
02:57:17,500 --> 02:57:23,480
that Austin has wanted to be back a part of the joint action agency and the value that

1321
02:57:23,480 --> 02:57:28,140
that brings. I mean, I don't know all the any of the story or not, but I'm curious as there

1322
02:57:28,140 --> 02:57:30,520
any discussion that Rochester would also.

1323
02:57:33,680 --> 02:57:36,780
Thank you for the question chair, commissioners.

1324
02:57:37,320 --> 02:57:43,120
Right now, there has been no talks of Rochester rejoining, they're doing a very similar process

1325
02:57:43,120 --> 02:57:46,000
that we're doing now identifying their renewables they need.

1326
02:57:46,380 --> 02:57:51,260
They have an internal goal to be 100% renewable by 2030 and they're going a lot path and

1327
02:57:51,260 --> 02:57:56,500
I know that they've been in the paper recently for looking to see if it now is the right

1328
02:57:56,500 --> 02:58:00,320
time because of those same cost pressures that we're seeing, so the reevaluating that

1329
02:58:00,320 --> 02:58:05,220
now and actually putting a survey out. So I think they're a little further down the path. Austin

1330
02:58:05,220 --> 02:58:10,720
was in a different space that they don't do any of their power supply on their own. So they

1331
02:58:10,720 --> 02:58:15,560
went out, looked at other joint action agencies, they looked at doing it on their own, and the

1332
02:58:15,560 --> 02:58:20,440
analysis came back that simple was the best decision. So to answer the question, we have no

1333
02:58:20,440 --> 02:58:26,780
indication that Rochester is going to move on that at this time. Okay. Those were the major questions I

1334
02:58:29,960 --> 02:58:46,060
Thank you, Chair Steven. So I think it's a familiar topic. Do you have any contact from data center developer in your members area and do you have any concerns serving those if anybody contact you?

1335
02:58:46,060 --> 02:58:58,740
Chair, commissioners, yes, we have had our members, they've been contacted by not just data centers, we've had some large load additions, green hydrogen for fertilizer.

1336
02:58:59,480 --> 02:59:05,760
We've had all those, we have not had one come to fruition yet, but we've got to the point of actually starting to study those items.

1337
02:59:06,560 --> 02:59:15,090
And I think the concerns for us are really about that security for those large projects were used to as utilities of

1338
02:59:15,090 --> 02:59:18,570
of putting iron in the ground or signing long-term,

1339
02:59:18,710 --> 02:59:22,990
as we said, a 35 to 35 year PPAs with organizations.

1340
02:59:23,530 --> 02:59:26,950
And we want that security, that security for ourselves.

1341
02:59:27,110 --> 02:59:29,850
A little easier when it's a member community or a town.

1342
02:59:30,350 --> 02:59:33,750
A little more difficult when it is a subsidiary of a Google

1343
02:59:33,750 --> 02:59:34,550
or a meta.

1344
02:59:34,930 --> 02:59:36,250
So those are really our concerns

1345
02:59:36,250 --> 02:59:37,610
about protecting our other members.

1346
02:59:38,110 --> 02:59:38,790
OK, thank you.

1347
02:59:38,970 --> 02:59:43,350
In case there is any significant development in that area,

1348
02:59:43,350 --> 02:59:48,670
I think you understand that you will have to inform commission as under the change of circumstance.

1349
02:59:50,370 --> 02:59:51,330
We understand that.

1350
02:59:51,550 --> 02:59:51,570
Okay.

1351
02:59:51,730 --> 02:59:52,030
Thank you.

1352
02:59:52,230 --> 02:59:57,150
And the next question is about, are you familiar with the Greens tab series Initiative

1353
02:59:57,150 --> 02:59:59,830
Among many Minnesota series?

1354
03:00:00,110 --> 03:00:20,990
PCA, minutes, or additional commerce, leading state agency, helping our city to be sustainable cities, and among those best practice, the best practice, number six, is about having energy plan and climate change plan.

1355
03:00:22,030 --> 03:00:27,970
If you are familiar with how are you guys incorporating that into your resource plan?

1356
03:00:28,490 --> 03:00:32,590
Because your members should be addressing that issue through you guys.

1357
03:00:38,070 --> 03:00:42,870
Chair Commissioner, I am familiar with that program partly for my time as a city administrator

1358
03:00:42,870 --> 03:00:45,030
in the previous life.

1359
03:00:45,750 --> 03:00:49,770
You raise an interesting challenge for all joint action agencies, each of our members

1360
03:00:49,770 --> 03:00:51,590
as their own mobile priorities.

1361
03:00:52,110 --> 03:00:56,270
However, they recognize the benefit of coming together to build generation transmission.

1362
03:00:57,270 --> 03:01:01,430
And so each member has some flexibility, I'm making their own decisions that are relates

1363
03:01:01,430 --> 03:01:05,630
to their own sustainability goals, but I guess the short answer would be if there's a way

1364
03:01:05,630 --> 03:01:10,610
that we could help a member with a green-step process, we certainly would, but they do have

1365
03:01:10,610 --> 03:01:18,770
some flexibility in deciding where they go based on, you know, percent renewable or sustainability

1366
03:01:18,770 --> 03:01:21,010
or other investments in that area.

1367
03:01:21,350 --> 03:01:22,270
Okay, thank you.

1368
03:01:23,670 --> 03:01:25,510
I'm going to share some of it.

1369
03:01:26,270 --> 03:01:27,110
Thank you, Chair Seben.

1370
03:01:27,370 --> 03:01:30,730
I did have a question for the Department regarding,

1371
03:01:30,730 --> 03:01:35,290
I Dr. Leigh, I had a question for the Department regarding

1372
03:01:36,230 --> 03:01:38,730
the decision options that they were interested in,

1373
03:01:38,730 --> 03:01:40,310
in particular, a decision option for.

1374
03:01:40,930 --> 03:01:44,510
I'm, I, that seems very reasonable, you know,

1375
03:01:44,510 --> 03:01:54,110
have the simple, you know, do more analysis of energy storage, good flexibility. I'm curious

1376
03:01:54,110 --> 03:01:59,230
if there's anything more that if you want to put it any more kind of color around that

1377
03:01:59,230 --> 03:02:07,430
and flesh that out a little bit. Sure. I just think that might be helpful too for the

1378
03:02:07,430 --> 03:02:12,630
record. I mean, I think that simple already does a pretty significant amount of demand.

1379
03:02:12,630 --> 03:02:21,870
I mean, you do a lot of DR and very do a good job with their DSM programs and I think you're

1380
03:02:21,870 --> 03:02:26,210
probably watching storage as well. So if there's anything more in particular, I think that could be

1381
03:02:26,210 --> 03:02:32,010
helpful for the future. Sure. Sydney Lee for the Minnesota Department of Commerce. Thank you for the

1382
03:02:32,010 --> 03:02:34,370
question. Chair, Stephen Commissioner Sullivan.

1383
03:02:36,470 --> 03:02:39,510
So the department is supporting one through five as

1384
03:02:39,510 --> 03:02:48,490
in the briefing papers, decision option 4 specifically to look at as the companies moving towards

1385
03:02:48,490 --> 03:02:54,550
CFS compliance, we appreciate that they put together a plan that brings on more renewables

1386
03:02:54,550 --> 03:03:00,670
as Shorko is retiring, but we want to ensure that they're also making sure that they're building

1387
03:03:00,670 --> 03:03:07,390
into their modeling, medium and long duration storage. Partially because as they noted, there's

1388
03:03:07,390 --> 03:03:12,370
not as much capacity accreditation on the solar resources from MISO, so we want to make sure

1389
03:03:12,370 --> 03:03:17,990
that we're getting also looking at these medium and long duration storage resources.

1390
03:03:18,470 --> 03:03:22,350
When they're modeled, they need to be modeled appropriately, making sure that their useful

1391
03:03:22,350 --> 03:03:27,630
life is not just using lithium ion battery assumptions, but using whatever the technology

1392
03:03:27,630 --> 03:03:30,170
vendor is assuming for a useful life.

1393
03:03:30,990 --> 03:03:40,070
for charging behavior and I think we also want to see an addition to the really like traditional demand flexibility

1394
03:03:40,070 --> 03:03:51,330
looking at coordinated distributed resources and just looking at more solar and storage, more good enhancing technologies.

1395
03:03:51,470 --> 03:03:59,010
This is in Southern Minnesota where we may not be getting the full value out of our renewables if they are curtailed or congested

1396
03:03:59,010 --> 03:04:02,150
So making sure that we're getting the full value out of those things.

1397
03:04:03,250 --> 03:04:06,650
And I think this is going to be a theme you'll see from the Department across all of

1398
03:04:06,650 --> 03:04:12,350
our resource plan analyses that as we're looking at driving towards compliance with the

1399
03:04:12,350 --> 03:04:17,010
CFS as an additional constraint, we want to make sure that we're looking at all the resource

1400
03:04:17,570 --> 03:04:21,730
types that could potentially drive towards that as opposed to just looking at traditional

1401
03:04:21,730 --> 03:04:22,570
renewables.

1402
03:04:24,070 --> 03:04:25,510
Well, that's helpful for me.

1403
03:04:25,510 --> 03:04:28,570
I appreciate it that that's what the department is looking at.

1404
03:04:28,730 --> 03:04:35,850
I hope that's helpful for the company too to hear what additional thinking that the department has around that.

1405
03:04:36,170 --> 03:04:38,330
So that's, I don't have anything further in.

1406
03:04:38,530 --> 03:04:39,110
You're Stephen.

1407
03:04:39,650 --> 03:04:40,510
Mr. Partridge.

1408
03:04:40,830 --> 03:04:41,090
Thank you.

1409
03:04:41,210 --> 03:04:48,690
I guess I'm still somewhat confused about what I think that decision option number four is perfectly fine.

1410
03:04:49,230 --> 03:04:53,550
And I assume that some boat would be happy to continue to follow technological advancements.

1411
03:04:53,550 --> 03:04:59,890
but I did see that scenario P5 through 7 did look at battery storage technology.

1412
03:05:00,000 --> 03:05:15,490
So, I wasn't sure if you had more specific guidance, if those scenarios weren't capturing something that you felt like needed to be studied, I wasn't quite clear on what the additional recommendation was.

1413
03:05:16,430 --> 03:05:21,610
And maybe if you all are clear on it, it's okay for me to continue to be confused.

1414
03:05:21,610 --> 03:05:22,350
But,

1415
03:05:40,240 --> 03:05:49,640
Chair commissioners, we are looking into that and I think one of the things that we look at as well that we're trying to grasp as we don't own a battery storage project yet.

1416
03:05:50,220 --> 03:05:55,540
We've partnered with Pacific Northwest National Laboratories and they're actually running a bit of study for us.

1417
03:05:55,620 --> 03:06:04,540
They're going to present to us September 11th and they're looking at all of not just the LMP value of it, but they're looking at dispatches.

1418
03:06:04,540 --> 03:06:19,240
they've placed it in Grand Marais and said, okay, well, how does this impact reliability and more of those intrinsic things than just the LMP so we're looking forward to the results of that study and looking how a battery could better fit into our system.

1419
03:06:20,900 --> 03:06:27,100
chair Steven commissioner partridge i think that's the type of thing we want to see we just want to have it

1420
03:06:27,100 --> 03:06:36,400
Written down as a requirement for the next plan that as they're learning more about those resources that the assumptions and the modeling constraints are changing over time

1421
03:06:37,000 --> 03:06:48,080
To make sure that because these are evolving resources the assumptions for how they interact in the overall generation profile are going to change as we learn more about how they're

1422
03:06:48,080 --> 03:07:04,080
batch how they store what their useful life is, what the cost curves look like, and then I think we want to see, again, I think looking at storage is important, but other emerging resources as they're coming on.

1423
03:07:04,200 --> 03:07:09,220
We also want to make sure that there's clear direction to consider something beyond traditional renewables.

1424
03:07:11,400 --> 03:07:12,920
I'm going to question your home.

1425
03:07:12,920 --> 03:07:14,580
Thank you, Chair Sevent.

1426
03:07:15,520 --> 03:07:19,140
So this is just a fruitful thought for the next round of your IRP.

1427
03:07:19,280 --> 03:07:23,020
I think you have some of the backup where the small

1428
03:07:23,020 --> 03:07:25,600
natural gas unit or the diesel unit.

1429
03:07:26,160 --> 03:07:28,980
Diesel unit also has a fuel supply constraint,

1430
03:07:29,260 --> 03:07:31,120
which is very similar to full-out battery.

1431
03:07:32,400 --> 03:07:36,040
So I think that even a little more thought on the considering battery

1432
03:07:36,040 --> 03:07:41,140
in hybrid form, battery plus renewable in the

1433
03:07:41,140 --> 03:07:49,160
location or even the, I probably might so improve this accreditation process. So I think those

1434
03:07:49,160 --> 03:07:55,720
hybrid unit or collocation unit can get them of benefit. But I think you may need to give

1435
03:07:55,720 --> 03:08:00,660
a little more thought because in terms of economics, there's a renewable plus battery

1436
03:08:00,660 --> 03:08:07,760
still cheaper, even without PTC based on what I saw in the 2025 report. So I think hopefully

1437
03:08:07,760 --> 03:08:15,400
You can give a lot of thought on that to make sure that diesel is not necessarily reliable

1438
03:08:15,400 --> 03:08:21,220
backup because you have to provide back-up fuel, plus also, I don't know whether this

1439
03:08:21,220 --> 03:08:29,040
object to air-pumped limits because we have seen this kind of significant concern in many

1440
03:08:29,040 --> 03:08:34,160
parts of the US when they are hosting data center, they're using back-up diesel, they are facing

1441
03:08:34,160 --> 03:08:40,100
this challenge. So I think in next round of the ILP, you may want to give them what thought

1442
03:08:40,100 --> 03:08:46,960
or what creative, bad ideas, stories, devise, including hybrid and collocations.

1443
03:08:53,100 --> 03:09:00,500
Thank you. First of all, I wanted to say that thank you for sharing this plan and I really

1444
03:09:00,500 --> 03:09:06,960
appreciated your explanation for how you selected your preferred plan and the way that you

1445
03:09:06,960 --> 03:09:15,240
balanced some of the risks associated with, I can't remember what the P1, the base case

1446
03:09:15,240 --> 03:09:22,260
there and then the one you ultimately selected P3. And I think that this is a really important

1447
03:09:22,260 --> 03:09:28,040
point, you say, of course you're looking at your 80% carbon free goal, but you're also looking

1448
03:09:28,040 --> 03:09:34,120
at the REC market and I think that's so important that we all understand that the REC market

1449
03:09:34,120 --> 03:09:41,460
will move and that we need to consider that a risk and any overreliance can put repairs at risk.

1450
03:09:41,680 --> 03:09:48,120
So I think you did an excellent job and you also focused on providing that physical asset

1451
03:09:48,120 --> 03:09:55,620
to hedge against LMP prices. So overall I thought this was really great. I have a couple

1452
03:09:55,620 --> 03:09:59,860
and it pick you questions for you, but want it to first say, you know, I hate it.

1453
03:10:00,000 --> 03:10:01,880
I just have nitpicky questions.

1454
03:10:04,400 --> 03:10:15,960
But, but substantively and overall generally, this is excellent. So thank you. One of the questions I had for you is on the base case assumption for the externalities.

1455
03:10:15,960 --> 03:10:22,140
I saw that you all were still using the Commission's values from 2017.

1456
03:10:23,180 --> 03:10:32,180
I'm guessing that's just a matter of timing and regulatory lags around when you started planning versus when the new values were approved.

1457
03:10:32,380 --> 03:10:37,740
But maybe you could speak to that and whether you'll be using updated values for the next IRP.

1458
03:10:40,300 --> 03:10:42,960
Thank you for the question, Chair and commissioners.

1459
03:10:43,200 --> 03:10:44,280
That is absolutely the case.

1460
03:10:44,280 --> 03:11:01,080
Yes, it was more of a timing issue to gather that data and, like I said, with the retirements and some of our absences within the organization, it was just best for us to use that data and we fully will use the updated data in the next one.

1461
03:11:01,080 --> 03:11:09,500
Thanks. The other question I had is around energy efficiency and I saw the forecast in

1462
03:11:09,500 --> 03:11:18,340
understand that as codes change and those baselines change, the potential per measure of the

1463
03:11:18,340 --> 03:11:24,360
different measures that you deploy through your DSM programs. The savings will go down. I am wondering

1464
03:11:24,360 --> 03:11:34,220
And if you looked at increasing electrification of heat and heat pump deployment, if that was

1465
03:11:34,220 --> 03:11:41,640
embedded within these numbers to see what the savings potential will be as you deploy

1466
03:11:41,640 --> 03:11:48,420
heat pumps, as your members deploy heat pumps for you all to start claiming additional

1467
03:11:48,420 --> 03:11:54,340
savings for perhaps some weatherization work, and we'll just note that that's an area

1468
03:11:54,340 --> 03:11:57,340
interest for me and we've talked about it in multiple

1469
03:11:57,340 --> 03:12:00,020
documents where to date,

1470
03:12:00,220 --> 03:12:02,920
elector cutilities really haven't been able to go

1471
03:12:02,920 --> 03:12:06,300
all in on weatherization because you haven't traditionally

1472
03:12:06,300 --> 03:12:08,300
been the primary heating provider.

1473
03:12:09,320 --> 03:12:13,080
And it has left some customers in our state

1474
03:12:13,080 --> 03:12:16,940
without the access to

1475
03:12:16,940 --> 03:12:19,480
rebates and weatherization services.

1476
03:12:20,080 --> 03:12:23,820
And so one of the opportunities I see as

1477
03:12:23,820 --> 03:12:29,820
keep pumps are deployed across the state is for electric utilities to really take on a greater

1478
03:12:29,820 --> 03:12:36,540
role in helping to insulate people's homes to provide them and crease comfort and bring

1479
03:12:36,540 --> 03:12:42,520
their utility bills down and so I just wanted to make that point and know if you had kind

1480
03:12:42,520 --> 03:12:48,260
of worked that into these numbers and if not if you would consider doing that for the next

1481
03:12:48,260 --> 03:12:49,140
IRP.

1482
03:12:52,680 --> 03:12:53,120
Sure, Steven.

1483
03:12:53,580 --> 03:12:57,940
Commissioner, as you know, SEMPA is very proud of our DSM program.

1484
03:12:58,180 --> 03:12:59,920
We think we were out there doing it.

1485
03:13:01,880 --> 03:13:07,500
Just last year, we received Energy Stars Partner of the Year Award, which we were very happy

1486
03:13:07,500 --> 03:13:07,960
about.

1487
03:13:08,340 --> 03:13:13,020
We have a ESR's Energy Service representatives that are deployed in our member communities,

1488
03:13:13,340 --> 03:13:18,140
which is a huge benefit for our very small members as well, to have energy professionals

1489
03:13:18,140 --> 03:13:20,420
come out and work with residents and businesses.

1490
03:13:20,420 --> 03:13:23,380
We're very excited about your source heat pumps.

1491
03:13:23,820 --> 03:13:27,340
We are working directly with contractors and those member communities, we're part of the

1492
03:13:27,340 --> 03:13:29,940
collaborative here in Minnesota as well.

1493
03:13:30,860 --> 03:13:35,480
I can't speak specifically to what kind of projections we have in our DSM numbers for air

1494
03:13:35,480 --> 03:13:40,840
source heat pumps, but we are expecting that to be a growing opportunity and we're definitely

1495
03:13:40,840 --> 03:13:44,180
encouraging our members and their customers to take advantage of that and I'll just

1496
03:13:44,180 --> 03:13:44,860
mention personally.

1497
03:13:45,400 --> 03:13:48,820
I mean, that crux right now is I need to replace their conditioning on my house and

1498
03:13:48,820 --> 03:13:54,960
running the numbers on AirCersy pumps and I think we can do better to notify the public about

1499
03:13:54,960 --> 03:14:01,760
what those opportunities are. Great. Well thank you and yeah I also like I said I hope that

1500
03:14:01,760 --> 03:14:08,640
as you do more heat pump deployment you'll also consider you know taking on a greater role in

1501
03:14:08,640 --> 03:14:13,520
weatherization as well because like I said you know we think I do think that you run good programs

1502
03:14:13,520 --> 03:14:18,600
and I know that that's been an area where you really haven't been able to to play a greater role

1503
03:14:18,820 --> 03:14:24,900
So I'm hoping that this is really a win-win for customers and for

1504
03:14:24,900 --> 03:14:31,120
SEMPA to be able to kind of stop in in a bigger way and help customers to

1505
03:14:31,120 --> 03:14:37,240
Insulate their seal their home. So I don't think I had any additional questions

1506
03:14:37,240 --> 03:14:44,400
and I can turn it over to anyone who had questions before I can make a motion.

1507
03:14:44,860 --> 03:14:47,240
Why don't you go ahead with a motion commissioner partridge?

1508
03:14:47,240 --> 03:14:56,140
Excellent. So I move decision option. Let me just take my highlighted version, so I don't

1509
03:14:56,140 --> 03:14:57,360
see there on things, sorry.

1510
03:14:59,820 --> 03:14:59,980
Okay.

1511
03:15:00,020 --> 03:15:14,660
I am a decision option 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. Is there any discussion of commissioner partridge's motion? Hearing none, all in favor, please say aye.

1512
03:15:16,080 --> 03:15:20,680
Opposed, the motion prevails. Thank you very much.

1513
03:15:52,620 --> 03:15:57,840
Ms. Brown, welcome. Please introduce item number 5 for us.

1514
03:15:59,360 --> 03:16:02,200
The afternoon chair of Stephen and commissioners, item number 5 is

1515
03:16:02,200 --> 03:16:08,720
stock at E002 M24389, and the matter of the petition of Northern

1516
03:16:08,720 --> 03:16:11,960
State's power, doing business as a six-year-old energy to revise its

1517
03:16:11,960 --> 03:16:15,340
net-meetering tariffs to apply to qualifying facilities up to five

1518
03:16:15,340 --> 03:16:18,360
megawatts. The question before the commission is should the

1519
03:16:18,360 --> 03:16:25,200
Grant Hennepin County's petition for reconsideration of the Commission's June 25th, 2025 order.

1520
03:16:25,920 --> 03:16:30,200
If no further remarks, but I am available for questions. Thank you.

1521
03:16:30,260 --> 03:16:36,170
Thank you, Ms. Brown, us commissioners. We've all reviewed this record, the order that was

1522
03:16:36,840 --> 03:16:43,690
established by the or that was issued by the Commission and the petitioner's comments. I'll just

1523
03:16:43,690 --> 03:16:50,870
note that in my review of the record, you know, I think it's pretty clear that the commission

1524
03:16:50,870 --> 03:16:56,090
did not formally adopt the one-mile rule in determining eligibility for net-matering

1525
03:16:56,090 --> 03:17:02,270
programs in its order and that the dispute between Hennemann County and Excel that was raised

1526
03:17:02,270 --> 03:17:09,070
in the recon was an dispute predating and unaffected by the order.

1527
03:17:09,070 --> 03:17:18,650
I'd also point out that in our order, which was issued on June 25th, the Commission

1528
03:17:18,650 --> 03:17:28,650
approved Excel's proposed tariff for five megawatts as a qualifying facilities PPA, which

1529
03:17:28,650 --> 03:17:42,590
Which made 15 minute net metering a fax under the A51 and A52 rate codes available for facilities

1530
03:17:42,590 --> 03:17:52,430
up to the 5 megawatt capacity level and we didn't make changes to the monthly or annual net

1531
03:17:52,430 --> 03:17:59,990
during rate offerings under the A53 or A54 rate codes.

1532
03:18:00,510 --> 03:18:10,630
And so for these considerations, as well as others that were raised in the staff

1533
03:18:10,630 --> 03:18:16,950
briefing papers, I would move decision options 4 and 6.

1534
03:18:16,950 --> 03:18:31,150
and point out to Hennepink County that they're free to file a complaint under 216B .17 and would ask

1535
03:18:31,150 --> 03:18:40,090
commissioners if they have any questions on my motion or any discussion of my motion

1536
03:18:40,090 --> 03:18:42,950
to move decision option 4 and 6.

1537
03:18:44,550 --> 03:18:49,870
Hearing none then, I move decision options for in six. All in favor, please say aye.

1538
03:18:49,870 --> 03:18:53,530
I oppose the motion prevails.

1539
03:18:55,970 --> 03:18:56,610
Thank you.

1540
03:19:02,680 --> 03:19:07,000
Next, we'll take up the agenda item number six.

1541
03:19:07,180 --> 03:19:16,980
Parties are free to come forward and we'll start with opening comments after we introduce the item.

1542
03:20:22,960 --> 03:20:26,820
Mr. Rose or Mr. Trudeau, please introduce item number 6.

1543
03:20:33,340 --> 03:20:36,560
I think you're sorry, your microphone is in on.

1544
03:20:40,200 --> 03:20:49,780
Good afternoon, Chair, Stephen. Commissioners, item number 6 relates to the socket number E9999 PR2521 for all the electric utilities.

1545
03:20:50,320 --> 03:21:01,840
And this is a matter of Minnesota PUC filings to the federal energy regulatory commission about the Minnesota PUC response to complaints of the North Dakota Public Service Commission and others.

1546
03:21:02,780 --> 03:21:06,780
versus the Minnesota or Mid-Content Independent System Operator,

1547
03:21:06,920 --> 03:21:11,960
Myso, in FERC Docket, EL 25-109.

1548
03:21:12,380 --> 03:21:14,000
And the question before the Commission is,

1549
03:21:14,440 --> 03:21:16,880
should the Commission authorize submission of comments

1550
03:21:16,880 --> 03:21:18,860
to FERC in opposition to the complaints

1551
03:21:18,860 --> 03:21:21,520
of North Dakota Public Service Commission at all?

1552
03:21:21,660 --> 03:21:26,220
Versus Myso, in FERC Docket, EL 25-109.

1553
03:21:27,100 --> 03:21:31,320
We have representatives of several of the utilities,

1554
03:21:31,320 --> 03:21:38,580
The Department of Commerce, Audertail Power, Minnesota Power, Great River Energy, Excel Energy,

1555
03:21:39,460 --> 03:21:47,280
and ITC Midwest, available to speak, and Commission staff are also available to answer any questions.

1556
03:21:48,860 --> 03:21:50,460
Thank you very much.

1557
03:21:50,880 --> 03:21:52,120
We'll begin with myself.

1558
03:21:52,680 --> 03:21:57,880
Please introduce yourself who's speaking and provide your comments.

1559
03:22:01,080 --> 03:22:06,920
All right, this is Brian Tullo, Executive Director of External Affairs for Myself.

1560
03:22:08,460 --> 03:22:12,360
Good afternoon, Madam Chair and Commissioners, and I feel off this on behalf of Myself.

1561
03:22:13,600 --> 03:22:18,000
And good afternoon, Kerry Valley, Senior Director for State Policy for Myself.

1562
03:22:23,170 --> 03:22:23,610
Go ahead.

1563
03:22:24,170 --> 03:22:25,150
Thank you.

1564
03:22:27,450 --> 03:22:35,570
Myself is currently finalizing its answer to respond to the complaint that was filed in 1st

1565
03:22:35,570 --> 03:22:44,690
The complaint challenges the cost allocation for the long-range transmission plan tronch 2.1.

1566
03:22:45,870 --> 03:22:54,410
And specifically, the complaint alleges that MISO has overestimated the benefits of that tronch 2.1.

1567
03:22:54,590 --> 03:22:57,950
And consequently, the portfolio projects should not move forward.

1568
03:22:57,950 --> 03:23:06,270
As a commission is aware, LRTP is a part of my son's reliability imperative and develops

1569
03:23:06,270 --> 03:23:12,370
backbone regional transmission projects to ensure that the transmission system is reliable,

1570
03:23:12,890 --> 03:23:19,770
economic, and compliant based upon state and utility plans, forecasts of conditions, and

1571
03:23:19,770 --> 03:23:20,910
industry trends.

1572
03:23:21,750 --> 03:23:27,090
This is accomplished while demonstrating that the benefits of the portfolio of transmission

1573
03:23:27,090 --> 03:23:35,990
projects exceed the cost and is consistent with months of its tariff. The LRTP takes a long-range

1574
03:23:35,990 --> 03:23:43,610
view roughly 20 to 40 years of the transmission system and addresses future issues and is

1575
03:23:43,610 --> 03:23:48,710
conducted as the factors that affect the region's transmission needs continually change.

1576
03:23:53,070 --> 03:23:53,870
For

1577
03:23:53,870 --> 03:24:02,730
24 transmission projects, 323 transmission facilities across the MISO Midwest sub region.

1578
03:24:03,350 --> 03:24:09,910
And those projects are targeted to go into service between 2032 and 2034.

1579
03:24:09,910 --> 03:24:26,250
Tronch 2.1 builds a 3,631 mile 765KV and 345KV backbone that ensures future reliability while demonstrating that the benefits exceed the costs.

1580
03:24:28,010 --> 03:24:36,770
Tronch 2.1 is a significant step towards enabling future generation as envisioned by miceau's members, utilities, and miceau's states.

1581
03:24:36,770 --> 03:24:45,570
Trans2.1 is primarily a reliability base portfolio, but also provides significant economic value.

1582
03:24:47,190 --> 03:24:53,230
Specifically in response to the complaint, LISO's answer will demonstrate, excuse me,

1583
03:24:53,590 --> 03:24:58,190
that LISO followed its tariff in developing Trans2.1.

1584
03:24:58,370 --> 03:24:59,970
We will review how LISO...

1585
03:25:00,000 --> 03:25:09,680
Followed a comprehensive 7-step process to develop Trunch 2.1, which importantly includes extensive and significant stakeholder input.

1586
03:25:10,640 --> 03:25:18,000
And that input was used to review, analyze, refine, and finalize Trunch 2.1.

1587
03:25:20,280 --> 03:25:29,380
Mysoil will also demonstrate it in the answer that it followed its tariff when it calculated the benefit, the cost ratio of Trunch 2.1.

1588
03:25:29,380 --> 03:25:34,940
Specifically, MISO used nine benefit metrics, which were also fully

1589
03:25:34,940 --> 03:25:36,780
vetted and reviewed by stakeholders.

1590
03:25:37,500 --> 03:25:43,640
The results of that analysis demonstrates that Tronch 2.1 will provide a range

1591
03:25:43,640 --> 03:25:50,500
of benefits of 1.8 to 3.5, which means that for every dollar spent on Tronch 2.1,

1592
03:25:51,720 --> 03:25:56,220
benefits of a dollar eighty to three dollars and fifty cents will result.

1593
03:25:57,380 --> 03:26:16,300
Our answer will also explain how Tronch 2.1 is a portfolio of projects, which is urgently needed to strengthen myso's high voltage back boom, and that it also provides multiple benefits and excess of the costs to the myso midwest sub region.

1594
03:26:16,300 --> 03:26:20,940
Again, primarily supporting reliability, but also reducing

1595
03:26:20,940 --> 03:26:26,080
generator production costs and enabling more efficient resource

1596
03:26:26,080 --> 03:26:27,680
and transmission investments.

1597
03:26:29,340 --> 03:26:33,560
Trunch 2.1 is an investment in economic development as new

1598
03:26:33,560 --> 03:26:37,240
expanding economies require reliable power and has a potential

1599
03:26:37,240 --> 03:26:41,300
to attract new businesses and support connections to promising

1600
03:26:41,300 --> 03:26:43,620
high growth industries such as data centers.

1601
03:26:44,870 --> 03:26:52,090
Our answer will also explain how there will be significant consequences if the FERC upholds this complaint.

1602
03:26:53,050 --> 03:27:00,490
The consequences will not only evolve the elimination of the reliability and economic benefits that I've discussed,

1603
03:27:01,210 --> 03:27:05,610
but the consequences will be farther reaching into other processes at MISO.

1604
03:27:06,010 --> 03:27:13,370
This is because remember that the Trots 2.1 was approved by the MISO Board in December.

1605
03:27:13,370 --> 03:27:16,910
This complaint was filed approximately eight months later.

1606
03:27:17,550 --> 03:27:23,750
So, Tronch 2.1 has already been included in base cases for studies that Myso is undertaking

1607
03:27:23,750 --> 03:27:24,470
to date.

1608
03:27:25,870 --> 03:27:32,270
And Myso has reasonably anticipated including Tronch 2.1 in future studies that it intends

1609
03:27:32,270 --> 03:27:33,650
to undertake in the near future.

1610
03:27:34,290 --> 03:27:38,850
The types of studies I'm talking about are interconnection related studies as well as

1611
03:27:38,850 --> 03:27:42,650
the recently approved Eris study process.

1612
03:27:43,690 --> 03:27:46,270
So the consequences will be far reaching in that.

1613
03:27:46,490 --> 03:27:49,790
It will delay, new generation coming online,

1614
03:27:50,450 --> 03:27:53,790
it will delay the facilitation of the economic development

1615
03:27:53,790 --> 03:27:57,310
opportunities that I've discussed in the United States.

1616
03:27:59,330 --> 03:28:03,050
With that, I'm happy to answer or try to answer any questions

1617
03:28:03,050 --> 03:28:04,990
that the commission they have.

1618
03:28:05,090 --> 03:28:05,570
Thank you.

1619
03:28:05,870 --> 03:28:06,410
Thank you.

1620
03:28:06,410 --> 03:28:10,650
I'll hold off on questions until we hear from the other parties, if that's okay.

1621
03:28:11,510 --> 03:28:13,450
Dr. Whitekoff, I see you're here.

1622
03:28:13,510 --> 03:28:17,150
I think we have you next if you're ready.

1623
03:28:20,650 --> 03:28:23,870
Someone's going to have to make room for Dr. Whitekoff.

1624
03:28:32,160 --> 03:28:32,760
Thank you.

1625
03:28:34,240 --> 03:28:36,220
Good afternoon, Chair Steven and Commissioners.

1626
03:28:36,960 --> 03:28:41,420
My name is Pete Whitekoff, and I'm Deputy Commissioner for Energy at the Minnesota Department of Commerce.

1627
03:28:41,420 --> 03:28:46,800
I appreciate the commission giving me the opportunity to speak today, and my comments will be brief.

1628
03:28:47,720 --> 03:28:52,900
I am here to convey the department's emphatic endorsement of the MISO Tronch 2.1 projects

1629
03:28:53,320 --> 03:28:58,380
and the need to keep the vital expansion and modernization of our electric grid moving forward.

1630
03:28:59,340 --> 03:29:07,380
Furc must reject the petition brought by North Dakota and others the only delay projects that have been through a robust decision making process already.

1631
03:29:07,380 --> 03:29:12,520
We at Commerce stand ready to work with the Commission and others to convey this message.

1632
03:29:13,540 --> 03:29:20,500
To briefly elaborate, the Department has a commitment to ensuring that Minissons are provided with affordable and reliable electricity.

1633
03:29:21,300 --> 03:29:24,060
The proposed projects will advance both of those goals.

1634
03:29:25,120 --> 03:29:34,340
We partnered with the Commission and other state entities and consumer advocates to participate in a robust process to develop the mid-continent independent system operator,

1635
03:29:39,840 --> 03:29:54,860
This transmission portfolio, and the corresponding cost allocation method, is the result of a robust, multi-year process with input and negotiation from all states within the mice of footprint, including those now challenging the decision.

1636
03:29:55,920 --> 03:29:59,960
These transmission projects are essential to maintaining a reliable grid and a

1637
03:30:01,320 --> 03:30:12,960
In addition to maintaining reliability and resilience for existing customers, these projects are necessary to support economic growth in our region in a time-expanding electric demand.

1638
03:30:14,180 --> 03:30:28,480
If Burke accepts the complaint, it will substantially delay projects, including those in the recently announced e-res program. This will delay projects of their not able to obtain expiring federal tax credits, a result that will further increase electric rates.

1639
03:30:28,480 --> 03:30:34,120
Department supports decision option one. Thank you for our time and

1640
03:30:34,120 --> 03:30:41,820
consideration. Thank you very much Dr. Whitecoff. Next is Audertill Power. Please identify

1641
03:30:42,740 --> 03:30:48,200
yourself and go ahead. Good afternoon. Good afternoon chair Cibon and

1642
03:30:48,200 --> 03:30:52,740
commissioners. My name is Stacey Abert and I am the manager of Firk RTO

1643
03:30:52,740 --> 03:30:57,400
policy for Audertill Power Company. I appreciate the opportunity to provide

1644
03:30:57,400 --> 03:30:59,440
comments on this matter today.

1645
03:31:00,240 --> 03:31:05,100
As a utility with customers in Minnesota, North Dakota, and South Dakota, we are following

1646
03:31:05,100 --> 03:31:07,380
this complaint activity very closely.

1647
03:31:09,480 --> 03:31:16,000
Ottertop power has had a high degree of engagement in the MVP and LRTP transmission planning

1648
03:31:16,000 --> 03:31:19,120
process and cost allocation for 15 years.

1649
03:31:19,600 --> 03:31:23,940
Our engineers have worked with my so's engineers and we've worked with our state commissions.

1650
03:31:24,700 --> 03:31:31,600
We stand behind and support how Tronch 2.1 was developed and is allocated and believe that it

1651
03:31:31,600 --> 03:31:38,900
provides the best outcome for the customers we serve and the areas we operate in. Mr.

1652
03:31:38,980 --> 03:31:44,880
Loughdes and the ISOMTEP report do a good job of covering the broad regional benefits that

1653
03:31:44,880 --> 03:31:51,280
Tronch 2.1 portfolio provides. I would like to take a more focused look at the benefits

1654
03:31:51,280 --> 03:31:54,060
that Autotopower Company has observed.

1655
03:31:55,180 --> 03:32:01,620
Specific to tranche 2.1, you may recall that when the initial tranche 2.0 was released

1656
03:32:01,620 --> 03:32:08,660
in March of 2024, Autotopower Company and others believed it failed to resolve severe regional

1657
03:32:08,660 --> 03:32:15,000
reliability issues within Minnesota and along the eastern borders of North Dakota and South Dakota.

1658
03:32:15,000 --> 03:32:22,360
Beyond the obvious reliability risk to our customers, these unresolved reliability issues also

1659
03:32:22,360 --> 03:32:28,240
constrained the transfer capability of Northwest, the Northwest region of Mysore.

1660
03:32:28,840 --> 03:32:33,560
This impedes access to some of the lowest cost generation in the Mysore footprint.

1661
03:32:34,420 --> 03:32:39,620
After observing these shortfalls, we believe Trots 2.1 needed to do more.

1662
03:32:39,620 --> 03:32:45,560
Audertail and others submitted additional projects for consideration into what ultimately became

1663
03:32:45,560 --> 03:32:46,920
Tronch 2.1.

1664
03:32:47,580 --> 03:32:53,620
That collaboration highlights the beauty of my SOS top-down bottom-up transmission planning process.

1665
03:32:54,060 --> 03:32:59,220
Utilities with the best knowledge of the needs in their area can submit solutions for consideration.

1666
03:33:00,220 --> 03:33:05,840
One of the projects that was added to the final Tronch 2.1 portfolio was the Maple River

1667
03:33:05,840 --> 03:33:08,320
Kayuna 345KV project.

1668
03:33:08,820 --> 03:33:11,460
Just for reference, Maple River is north of Fargo

1669
03:33:11,460 --> 03:33:13,840
and Kayuna is northeast of Braynard.

1670
03:33:14,620 --> 03:33:17,880
In addition to providing reliability benefits by resolving

1671
03:33:17,880 --> 03:33:21,100
about 60% of the significant voltage constraints,

1672
03:33:22,020 --> 03:33:24,800
this project effectively forms a bridge across

1673
03:33:24,800 --> 03:33:27,840
the constrained areas on the eastern side of North Dakota

1674
03:33:27,840 --> 03:33:31,520
and the northwestern portion of Minnesota.

1675
03:33:31,520 --> 03:33:44,420
allowing access to low cost power and offloading the existing system facilities, as well as creating a thousand megawatts of transfer capability in the local resource zone number one.

1676
03:33:44,740 --> 03:33:53,540
Providing access to low cost generation benefits the MISO region as a whole and brings economic opportunities to the northwest region of MISO.

1677
03:33:54,340 --> 03:34:01,140
Trump's two-point-one builds off the Trump's one-portfolio, which was built off the original MVP portfolio.

1678
03:34:02,020 --> 03:34:08,200
Individually and collectively, these three portfolios provide tremendous value to our region and to the Myself footprint.

1679
03:34:10,830 --> 03:34:22,770
Thank you so much, Ms. Abert. Next, I just shut my list, is GRE, please, or no, sorry, Minnesota power, and they may be online.

1680
03:34:23,790 --> 03:34:26,330
Good afternoon, Chair C. Benick-Mrs.

1681
03:34:26,570 --> 03:34:30,130
I thank Jack Senevins, Kurt Council, and I'm here on behalf of Minnesota Power.

1682
03:34:30,690 --> 03:34:37,570
To discuss the critical importance of my SO's LRTP process and the Tronch 2.1 portfolio of transmission projects.

1683
03:34:38,670 --> 03:34:50,290
Minnesota Power strongly supports the Tronch 2.1 portfolio, which represents a proactive collaborative effort to ensure a grid of reliability and resiliency across Minnesota and the broader Midwest region.

1684
03:34:50,290 --> 03:34:59,910
These projects are essential to addressing grid stability challenges during periods of high demand, extreme weather, and other systems stresses, ensuring that electricity

1685
03:35:00,000 --> 03:35:07,000
Emergency Remains available when it is needed most. Accordingly, minutes out of power intends to sign on to a joint filing with other

1686
03:35:07,000 --> 03:35:15,180
ISO transmission owners to oppose the complaint in the FERC. The Toronto 2.1 portfolio was designed to align with the

1687
03:35:15,180 --> 03:35:23,880
generation plans of utilities in Minnesota and other other MISO states, including the integrated resources plans that have been approved by this commission.

1688
03:35:23,880 --> 03:35:40,340
By increasing regional transferability, transfer capability, these projects enable utilities to access the diverse mix of reliable energy resources, reducing the need for redundant generation, and enhancing overall resource adequacy.

1689
03:35:40,340 --> 03:35:52,700
Myso estimates the benefits of charge 2.1 are between 2.2 to 2.2 to 4.9 times greater than the costs in the myso zone 1, which includes Minnesota, North Dakota,

1690
03:35:52,980 --> 03:36:04,240
parts of Wisconsin, and South Dakota. These benefits included avoid avoided capacity costs, mitigation of reliability issues, and increased access to competitive energy resources.

1691
03:36:04,240 --> 03:36:16,300
Importantly, this enhanced transfer capability will improve resiliency, mitigate outages and provide access to available resources during times of grid constraint and high wholesale electricity costs.

1692
03:36:17,180 --> 03:36:28,220
The Tronch 2.1 portfolio is the product of a multi-year intent of stakeholder process, which included contributions from utilities, public interest organizations and state agencies.

1693
03:36:28,220 --> 03:36:35,940
This transparent and an inclusive process is sure that the projects were well aligned with the broader liability needs of the region.

1694
03:36:36,680 --> 03:36:45,040
By sharing the cost and benefits across the region, these projects ensure that the grid remains reliable, resilient, and capable of meeting the demands of the future.

1695
03:36:45,040 --> 03:36:50,620
Minister of Power also recognizes the risks posed by delays or changes so that John

1696
03:36:50,620 --> 03:36:53,720
2.1 portfolio as proposed by the complaint.

1697
03:36:54,600 --> 03:36:59,600
If John 2.1 were removed from the relevant MISO models, Minister of Power anticipates

1698
03:36:59,600 --> 03:37:05,520
substantial delays, res studies, and potential increased costs across multiple MISO planning

1699
03:37:05,520 --> 03:37:06,080
activities.

1700
03:37:06,680 --> 03:37:13,080
This disruption would include generator interconnection studies, transmission planning, load

1701
03:37:13,080 --> 03:37:18,600
interconnection studies and the evaluation of the areas projects which Microsoft has recently

1702
03:37:18,600 --> 03:37:19,300
approved.

1703
03:37:22,540 --> 03:37:27,060
Quarterly, Minnesota Power is committed to working with the Microsoft Transmission Owners

1704
03:37:27,060 --> 03:37:31,280
and other stakeholders to oppose this complaint and ensure the timely development of

1705
03:37:31,280 --> 03:37:33,220
these critical, tronch-to-point-one projects.

1706
03:37:34,320 --> 03:37:37,940
I want to thank you for the opportunity to speak today, Minnesota Power looks forward to continue

1707
03:37:37,940 --> 03:37:44,460
to work with the Commission and other stakeholders to advance these critical projects and support

1708
03:37:44,460 --> 03:37:45,920
the region's energy future.

1709
03:37:49,520 --> 03:37:50,960
Thank you very much, Mr. Evans.

1710
03:37:51,260 --> 03:37:54,380
Next is GRE, Mr. Ellis.

1711
03:37:54,580 --> 03:37:58,920
You're going to have to swap in again, apologies, or.

1712
03:38:07,800 --> 03:38:08,180
Welcome.

1713
03:38:08,680 --> 03:38:09,160
Thank you.

1714
03:38:09,180 --> 03:38:11,460
Good afternoon, Chair C. Ben, Commissioners.

1715
03:38:11,540 --> 03:38:12,720
My name is Matt Ellis.

1716
03:38:12,860 --> 03:38:14,560
I'm the Director of Transmission Planning

1717
03:38:14,560 --> 03:38:16,380
and Compliance from Great River Energy.

1718
03:38:16,880 --> 03:38:19,080
And we very much appreciate the opportunity

1719
03:38:19,080 --> 03:38:22,360
to provide some brief perspectives regarding the complaint.

1720
03:38:22,860 --> 03:38:25,480
Great River Energy opposes the complaints.

1721
03:38:25,480 --> 03:38:29,560
we will submit comments, the first jointly with other miso utilities and support of the

1722
03:38:29,560 --> 03:38:35,720
my support Volio. We participated extensively through the multi-year stakeholder process

1723
03:38:35,720 --> 03:38:42,320
that led to the approval. We also independently throughout the process and subsequent subsequent

1724
03:38:42,320 --> 03:38:47,680
have evaluated the necessity of the individual Trunch 2.1 projects for which we're involved.

1725
03:38:48,200 --> 03:38:52,860
For each, we confirm that these projects are essential and represent the most cost-effective

1726
03:38:52,860 --> 03:38:55,180
solutions for ensuring system reliability.

1727
03:38:56,460 --> 03:38:58,820
Several key points deserve emphasis.

1728
03:38:59,740 --> 03:39:03,480
While the complaint primarily highlights the economic analysis

1729
03:39:03,480 --> 03:39:06,360
supporting the portfolio, specifically a challenge that

1730
03:39:06,360 --> 03:39:09,380
few of the benefits metrics use to calculate the benefit to cost

1731
03:39:09,380 --> 03:39:09,820
ratio.

1732
03:39:10,380 --> 03:39:14,800
From our perspective, reliability is the principle driver of need.

1733
03:39:15,040 --> 03:39:16,980
And if according to my social analysis, the

1734
03:39:16,980 --> 03:39:24,380
branch 2.1 portfolio addresses 961 reliability constraints. Bringing this closer to home,

1735
03:39:25,340 --> 03:39:32,780
372 of those are mitigated by the Tronch 2.1765 KV line across the other Minnesota that

1736
03:39:32,780 --> 03:39:40,320
connect South Dakota. I can you say that again. The the number. Three. Three hundred

1737
03:39:40,320 --> 03:39:48,960
and seventy-two. One more time. Three hundred and seventy-two. All right. About a third. So

1738
03:39:48,960 --> 03:39:54,920
nine hundred and six. So Tronch 2.1 mitigates nine hundred and sixty-one reliability

1739
03:39:54,920 --> 03:39:59,980
issues. The 765 KV line across Southern Minnesota Connecting.

1740
03:40:28,080 --> 03:40:31,360
ALOVES they're ready to vote.

1741
03:40:31,440 --> 03:40:42,500
and so absent resolution through the Trunch 2.1 portfolio these constraints would likely be resolved through a more fragmented solution to ultimately resulting in a higher cost.

1742
03:40:43,500 --> 03:41:01,420
Now mitigating these 961 reliability constraints not only accommodates a new and expanding load growth but it also helps facilitate the interconnection of a

1743
03:41:01,420 --> 03:41:06,500
Specifically, bringing this closer to home, we have projects that are in Mysore's expedited

1744
03:41:06,500 --> 03:41:08,340
resource addition study.

1745
03:41:08,760 --> 03:41:13,280
We also have pending generation interconnection requests necessary to fulfill our state-approved

1746
03:41:13,280 --> 03:41:18,820
integrated resource plan, all of which are contingent upon Toronto 2.1 being operational.

1747
03:41:19,480 --> 03:41:23,080
Should grant the complaints, these studies would all require re-evaluation.

1748
03:41:23,840 --> 03:41:27,600
A re-evaluation of these studies would affect both network upgrades and overall

1749
03:41:27,600 --> 03:41:32,840
project economics within the MISOQ, the ERAS process, as well as internally for great

1750
03:41:32,840 --> 03:41:33,700
reverendurgy.

1751
03:41:33,980 --> 03:41:37,920
Each utility does their own due diligence before we even submit these to MISO.

1752
03:41:38,360 --> 03:41:42,240
And so a reevaluation would go back to the start even within each of the utilities.

1753
03:41:43,000 --> 03:41:46,880
Timelines for commercial operations would likely be delayed in dangering realization

1754
03:41:46,880 --> 03:41:49,880
of federal tax credits that are already on a challenging timeline.

1755
03:41:50,360 --> 03:41:56,100
This would necessitate reconsideration of project viability, possibly impending Minnesota's

1756
03:41:56,100 --> 03:42:00,760
potential to capitalize on federal tax instead of to benefit our members and control total

1757
03:42:00,760 --> 03:42:01,720
cost of service.

1758
03:42:02,520 --> 03:42:07,540
So we support the commission filing comments opposing the first complaint and very much

1759
03:42:07,540 --> 03:42:09,320
appreciate the opportunity to provide comments.

1760
03:42:12,580 --> 03:42:14,660
Thank you very much, Mr. Ellis.

1761
03:42:15,120 --> 03:42:17,360
Next is Excel.

1762
03:42:21,710 --> 03:42:22,390
Thank you, Madam Chair.

1763
03:42:22,450 --> 03:42:23,610
Commissioners, E.M. Devson.

1764
03:42:23,650 --> 03:42:25,950
I'm the lead assistant general counsel at Excel Energy.

1765
03:42:25,950 --> 03:42:31,370
I also have Jason standing the director of our Transmission Planning Group.

1766
03:42:31,370 --> 03:42:37,310
in case you guys have questions. I just I can't give up the table for this part of it.

1767
03:42:38,030 --> 03:42:42,890
I think I'll start by saying we at Excel we agree with basically everything that has been

1768
03:42:42,890 --> 03:42:50,290
said here by the other parties. We very much support Toronto 2.1. We will also be filing a

1769
03:42:50,290 --> 03:42:59,490
protests against the complaint next week. I think we see this as a critical for both reliability,

1770
03:42:59,490 --> 03:43:07,650
the economic growth and economic benefits to our customers. In focusing just solely on reliability

1771
03:43:07,650 --> 03:43:14,390
which obviously is one part of this, it's a very important part but to focus on that I think

1772
03:43:14,390 --> 03:43:26,050
what was compelling to us in looking through our documents for this hearing today is that when

1773
03:43:26,050 --> 03:43:33,210
in its future's process from the start, and obviously have had a lot of comment from all

1774
03:43:33,210 --> 03:43:38,090
these other parties on it. But when my, you know, projected those futures and these are

1775
03:43:38,090 --> 03:43:44,850
obviously investments over the next 20 years. Just looking at what we would need to spend

1776
03:43:44,850 --> 03:43:51,350
in zone one to mitigate the reliability impacts if the system were to grow naturally as they project.

1777
03:43:51,350 --> 03:44:01,810
That alone is going to take up half on the low end or maybe more than the cost of that LRTP 2.1 will offset.

1778
03:44:02,230 --> 03:44:10,990
That's before you get to the many other benefits of congestion relief, capacity, lowering capacity, cost, lowering energy costs.

1779
03:44:11,610 --> 03:44:15,830
So we think that in and of itself is incredibly compelling information.

1780
03:44:17,230 --> 03:44:24,270
So, I think that, you know, I think every other point I wanted to make has been made, so I won't, I won't repeat them.

1781
03:44:24,530 --> 03:44:40,560
I think the one thing that is coming to mind that I want to say is, you know, what we, what I think we also saw in the light reliability standpoint and Jason can talk more about this, but when we're talking about resiliency of the system.

1782
03:44:42,200 --> 03:44:55,180
These projects are going to produce what we call the thermal overloads of the system by 60% in an N-1 scenario or when one major transmission line goes down.

1783
03:44:55,500 --> 03:44:59,940
The ability to respond to that and I believe it's 70% in N-1-1.

1784
03:45:00,300 --> 03:45:17,120
So we think this is both very cost effective way of making sure that we can plan for the growth of the system and the reliability constraints that would be inevitable, but also in making sure that the system as it grows remains resilient to potential disruptions.

1785
03:45:17,820 --> 03:45:21,320
So like I said, we're going to be filing a protest and we very much support.

1786
03:45:27,840 --> 03:45:30,520
It's not your turn yet.

1787
03:45:32,240 --> 03:45:39,660
Thank you, was that that concludes your comments and use your support of the decision option that's outlined in that briefing page.

1788
03:45:39,680 --> 03:45:41,880
Thank you, Madam Chair, didn't make the clear yes we are.

1789
03:45:41,880 --> 03:45:46,700
and ITC is next on the list.

1790
03:45:48,040 --> 03:45:51,040
Ms. Rupiah, are you, I understood,

1791
03:45:51,240 --> 03:45:53,000
you were just available for questions,

1792
03:45:53,160 --> 03:45:57,920
but I wanted to just know that you're online

1793
03:45:57,920 --> 03:46:00,840
if there's anything ITC wanted to provide

1794
03:46:01,460 --> 03:46:02,880
for opening comments.

1795
03:46:03,120 --> 03:46:07,300
You're welcome to hearing, I don't hear anything.

1796
03:46:08,340 --> 03:46:10,160
Can you hear me?

1797
03:46:10,160 --> 03:46:17,480
Yes. My apologies. I am operating from a phone and so I do have my colleague here, but I will just say,

1798
03:46:18,020 --> 03:46:22,080
thank you, Jennifer Rupia with ITC Midwest. I have my colleague here,

1799
03:46:23,560 --> 03:46:28,060
Phil Zilvenowski, who can get into a little more detail, but I do want to express appreciation

1800
03:46:28,960 --> 03:46:34,760
to the commission for taking up comments and allowing us to offer comments on this.

1801
03:46:35,460 --> 03:46:39,820
Phil, are you going to spot where you can offer comments?

1802
03:46:42,650 --> 03:46:44,170
Can everyone hear me?

1803
03:46:44,690 --> 03:46:44,890
Okay.

1804
03:46:45,130 --> 03:46:45,230
Yes.

1805
03:46:46,150 --> 03:46:47,550
Please state your name for the record.

1806
03:46:47,690 --> 03:46:49,430
Okay. Great.

1807
03:46:50,890 --> 03:46:51,750
Philip Jovenowski.

1808
03:46:52,370 --> 03:46:56,030
I'm an analyst on the for regulatory team with ITC.

1809
03:46:57,050 --> 03:46:57,710
So, good afternoon.

1810
03:46:58,510 --> 03:46:59,870
Chair Steven and commissioners.

1811
03:47:01,190 --> 03:47:04,490
ITC is fully supportive of

1812
03:47:04,490 --> 03:47:12,520
launch 2.1 as well as as taken to both plan the portfolio and everything that they've

1813
03:47:13,890 --> 03:47:20,150
sort of as their plans to respond to the complaint the the gentleman from excel had

1814
03:47:20,150 --> 03:47:21,410
had mentioned that he just

1815
03:47:23,910 --> 03:47:27,330
touched on so going last I can say everything I was planning on saying

1816
03:47:27,330 --> 03:47:31,830
his position but I see his planning on filing a

1817
03:47:58,520 --> 03:47:59,860
viability metrics to

1818
03:48:07,120 --> 03:48:08,640
mitigation relief as well

1819
03:48:08,640 --> 03:48:09,460
as well as

1820
03:48:14,390 --> 03:48:14,990
I'll just

1821
03:48:18,120 --> 03:48:21,740
sit to inject any sort of regulatory uncertainty it's already

1822
03:48:21,740 --> 03:48:22,540
Okay,

1823
03:48:40,280 --> 03:48:45,760
thank you very much for all of those comments. Is there anybody else who, this is a

1824
03:48:45,760 --> 03:48:52,500
docket that we open, you know, not that long ago, but is there anybody else that wants to

1825
03:48:52,500 --> 03:49:00,200
provide comments on the issue that's before the commission right now? Okay, hearing no one

1826
03:49:00,200 --> 03:49:02,420
and then we'll turn to commissioner questions

1827
03:49:02,420 --> 03:49:07,720
and our, my so-designee and OMS President,

1828
03:49:08,220 --> 03:49:10,600
Commissioner Sullivan, please start us off.

1829
03:49:11,080 --> 03:49:11,900
Thank you, Chair Sivan.

1830
03:49:12,020 --> 03:49:16,960
And I want to thank Chair Sivan and colleagues

1831
03:49:18,500 --> 03:49:21,980
for having this put on the agenda today.

1832
03:49:21,980 --> 03:49:23,180
I think it's really important.

1833
03:49:23,360 --> 03:49:25,880
I want to thank the utilities for being here.

1834
03:49:26,820 --> 03:49:34,460
I think that, you know, as it's been said, we've put everything out and I think every,

1835
03:49:35,080 --> 03:49:42,600
I got something to value from every single one of the testifiers today and I really appreciate that.

1836
03:49:42,940 --> 03:49:51,040
There's a couple things I wanted to focus on, and by no means if I leave you off the list, it doesn't mean I didn't hear it.

1837
03:49:51,040 --> 03:49:55,920
I'm just like, I'm keyed in on a couple things, but, you know,

1838
03:49:55,980 --> 03:49:59,980
otter tail you talked about the reliability issues that this is,

1839
03:50:00,000 --> 03:50:06,660
This addresses between North Dakota and Minnesota power. I mean, in Minnesota, the Maple River,

1840
03:50:06,660 --> 03:50:16,280
Kailuna transmission system that will allow outlet from the Northwestern segments of my so into the rest of my so.

1841
03:50:20,000 --> 03:50:27,800
Jerry mentioning 961 known reliability issues that would be mitigated by these lines.

1842
03:50:28,160 --> 03:50:33,820
Excel mentioning that just to fix the known issues and I'm assuming on your system,

1843
03:50:34,160 --> 03:50:38,440
not all of the known issues, but just the reliability issues that you're aware of,

1844
03:50:38,440 --> 03:50:44,180
that that covers more than 60% or that covers more than half of the costs of

1845
03:50:44,180 --> 03:50:48,620
to point one. I got that right. I want to make sure that that's not a check

1846
03:50:48,620 --> 03:50:56,460
for yourself and that was for zone one for zone one and it's it's about half or

1847
03:50:56,460 --> 03:51:01,340
up depending on the low and growth we see over the next 20 years. Yeah, half would

1848
03:51:01,340 --> 03:51:07,280
be the low end the baseline. I mean I think that this is from this is exactly what

1849
03:51:07,280 --> 03:51:12,140
the myso process is designed to address the myso process as somebody who's been

1850
03:51:12,140 --> 03:51:16,940
I wouldn't say I've been to 300 of those meetings, but there were more than 300 meetings on

1851
03:51:16,940 --> 03:51:22,860
Trump's two-point one, but I've been to a sizable percentage of them, same with Commissioner

1852
03:51:23,400 --> 03:51:23,800
Ham.

1853
03:51:24,500 --> 03:51:25,180
What did you want to remember?

1854
03:51:25,580 --> 03:51:25,760
Yeah.

1855
03:51:26,100 --> 03:51:27,200
I mean, we've been to a lot.

1856
03:51:27,280 --> 03:51:30,540
I mean, these issues are vetted, and this is what this is to address.

1857
03:51:31,360 --> 03:51:36,540
The reliability issues, this is what the stakeholder processes there to address for us

1858
03:51:36,540 --> 03:51:40,940
all to do this together, because it costs less for us to do it together than it does

1859
03:51:40,940 --> 03:51:44,560
if we do adhaki one-offie approaches, which somebody

1860
03:51:44,560 --> 03:51:47,440
mentioned that same thing, it's going to cost more

1861
03:51:47,440 --> 03:51:48,900
if we do it independently.

1862
03:51:49,580 --> 03:51:52,320
And that's why we have an RTO.

1863
03:51:52,660 --> 03:51:55,360
Is that we share these costs that cost our lower for everybody.

1864
03:51:57,040 --> 03:52:01,820
And that, that redowns to almost everything

1865
03:52:01,820 --> 03:52:04,240
that the RTO does for us.

1866
03:52:04,420 --> 03:52:06,900
And where we see this reflected as in fuel class,

1867
03:52:07,360 --> 03:52:09,040
we see this reflected in the fuel class

1868
03:52:09,040 --> 03:52:16,020
When, I mean, just this last year, Excel, you are fuel clause reduced by $200 million last year.

1869
03:52:16,360 --> 03:52:19,400
For a number of reasons, actually, I think it was a little bit more than that.

1870
03:52:19,760 --> 03:52:25,020
But for a number of reasons, there's no $200 million prudency review out there.

1871
03:52:25,140 --> 03:52:27,300
This is the value of my cell.

1872
03:52:27,580 --> 03:52:30,480
And this is the value of why are you smoking?

1873
03:52:38,400 --> 03:52:45,200
I think I really appreciate the points that have been made here on reliability.

1874
03:52:45,800 --> 03:52:48,460
I think that is really, really important.

1875
03:52:49,180 --> 03:52:56,320
One of the process that my SOU uses, we have agreed to this process through the organization

1876
03:52:56,320 --> 03:53:04,320
on my so states, the states have agreed to a process and this is the end result of it.

1877
03:53:05,840 --> 03:53:12,140
I've, you know, that this is the end result of it and this is why, for quarter 1920,

1878
03:53:12,540 --> 03:53:18,960
is modeled on my so-process, is that if we need to get this stuff done and this is why

1879
03:53:18,960 --> 03:53:22,660
focusing the rest of the country should look more like myself.

1880
03:53:26,140 --> 03:53:33,360
So, I think that it's really important that it is known that this is fundamentally about reliability,

1881
03:53:33,760 --> 03:53:36,160
that this was a sound, strong process.

1882
03:53:37,200 --> 03:53:47,620
I want to focus in on some of the knock-on consequences that are what I'm really concerned about.

1883
03:53:47,620 --> 03:53:51,840
As my so Mr. Loftus is testified to that,

1884
03:53:52,340 --> 03:53:55,520
now this has been in the model now for since December.

1885
03:53:56,240 --> 03:53:57,700
This is baked into the analysis

1886
03:53:57,700 --> 03:54:00,140
that my so uses going forward.

1887
03:54:01,300 --> 03:54:08,340
And for anybody out there who is in need of power,

1888
03:54:08,640 --> 03:54:10,000
if that is what you need,

1889
03:54:10,980 --> 03:54:16,460
then the power that you need to serve your data center

1890
03:54:16,460 --> 03:54:20,020
or you're on short industry, or whatever,

1891
03:54:20,540 --> 03:54:25,320
you're needing it for is reliant on these transmission lines.

1892
03:54:25,940 --> 03:54:28,540
And if you pull them out of the model,

1893
03:54:29,220 --> 03:54:30,380
like as Mr. Loughthas said,

1894
03:54:31,060 --> 03:54:34,920
that is going to mean it's going to be harder for you to get that power,

1895
03:54:35,240 --> 03:54:36,960
much harder, and it's going to cost more.

1896
03:54:37,280 --> 03:54:40,060
And I want people to pay, if anybody's listening,

1897
03:54:40,180 --> 03:54:42,000
I want people to pay attention to this point,

1898
03:54:42,340 --> 03:54:43,980
it's going to cost you more,

1899
03:54:44,600 --> 03:54:57,980
and you're going to have to wait longer, and in the AI race that we're in, and the moment that we're in, everything that we hear about is we need this now, now, now, now, well, this is going to take longer.

1900
03:55:00,020 --> 03:55:27,540
ARAZ is a process that my so developed, that we through stakeholder process developed, Minnesota has 11 ARAZ projects that have been approved by my so-to move forward through ARAZ modeling, just some numbers that I had staff pull, those 11 projects and all of the utilities have projects in there, 2,470 megawatts.

1901
03:55:28,540 --> 03:55:35,840
That's two thousand four hundred and seventy megawatts that Minnesota's economy needs in the next in the immediate future.

1902
03:55:36,060 --> 03:55:44,920
We need that our our economic growth of people of the state are depending on that showing up for their jobs for their livelihood.

1903
03:55:46,180 --> 03:55:50,600
That two thousand four hundred seventy megawatts if this trans two point one is pulled is going to wait longer.

1904
03:55:50,780 --> 03:55:55,340
And I guess my question to my so is and you can answer this in weeks, months, years.

1905
03:55:55,340 --> 03:56:07,400
How long would you expect that it would delay an era's process if you pulled 2.1 out and you don't have to be specific, but that's why I said weeks, months, years.

1906
03:56:07,820 --> 03:56:14,040
I think it's probably years, but I'm not trying to lead you. Wow, leading you.

1907
03:56:18,130 --> 03:56:24,330
Madam Chair, I don't think we have a specific timetable in mind, it would certainly involve

1908
03:56:24,330 --> 03:56:31,530
having to update the base case and in part that would, the time period would be dictated

1909
03:56:31,530 --> 03:56:36,370
by how long this complaint proceedings can it take. So that alone could take months.

1910
03:56:37,470 --> 03:56:41,230
But in terms of actually updating it and then running the studies, if we don't have a specific

1911
03:56:41,230 --> 03:56:43,990
time frame, but certainly something we can get back to you on.

1912
03:56:43,990 --> 03:56:48,970
I didn't interpret that as many months to years.

1913
03:56:50,010 --> 03:56:54,350
I think the utilities, that's just with arrows.

1914
03:56:55,470 --> 03:57:00,190
In the definitive planning phase, the 2022 cycle,

1915
03:57:00,650 --> 03:57:04,210
Minnesota has 4,988 megawatts in DPP.

1916
03:57:04,430 --> 03:57:06,690
So just so people are paying attention.

1917
03:57:07,430 --> 03:57:11,490
If you pull, transfer 2.1 out of the base case,

1918
03:57:11,490 --> 03:57:18,810
what it will most immediately affect, it will affect the DPP-22, it will affect the DPP-23,

1919
03:57:20,630 --> 03:57:25,390
and these are the cycles that lead ultimately to a generator interconnection agreement.

1920
03:57:26,570 --> 03:57:31,290
It will affect expedited projects and it will affect eras.

1921
03:57:31,750 --> 03:57:36,410
But in Minnesota we have 4,988 megawatts in DPP-22,

1922
03:57:36,410 --> 03:57:41,650
and we have 8,465 megawatts in the DPP-23.

1923
03:57:43,290 --> 03:57:47,370
So that together is about 13,400 megawatts.

1924
03:57:47,370 --> 03:57:53,090
If you assume that 70% of that drops off because that's what happens in the definitive planning phases that drops off.

1925
03:57:53,710 --> 03:57:59,310
That still leaves us with 6,500 and 5 megawatts that is very likely going to be delayed.

1926
03:57:59,310 --> 03:58:05,950
And we can, I just verify those numbers with you. Does that sound right, Mr. Loftus?

1927
03:58:07,090 --> 03:58:09,670
Not a mature commissioner, yes. That sounds accurate.

1928
03:58:10,350 --> 03:58:18,830
So between DPP-22 and 23 and Eras, we're looking at 9,000 megawatts of power that is to serve

1929
03:58:18,830 --> 03:58:27,430
minisotans that will be delayed. So all the stuff that we want to do is, that's why I view

1930
03:58:27,430 --> 03:58:28,490
this as an attack.

1931
03:58:31,890 --> 03:58:37,010
And I would be interested if my so-called chair, what are those numbers for like the

1932
03:58:37,010 --> 03:58:39,170
era's numbers for the entire footprint?

1933
03:58:39,810 --> 03:58:45,150
Because I wouldn't anticipate that all of those era's projects throughout the entire

1934
03:58:45,150 --> 03:58:47,270
footprint would also be delayed.

1935
03:58:48,070 --> 03:58:52,170
And how many megawatts, Mr. Tullo, or Mr. Loughtis, is that?

1936
03:58:52,770 --> 03:58:56,330
Madam Chair, Commissioner Salad, I can tell you that so in August 26,

1937
03:58:57,690 --> 03:59:07,630
I received 47 eras applications across 12 states, accounted for 26,500 megawatts of new

1938
03:59:07,630 --> 03:59:10,210
generation capacity to come on on.

1939
03:59:10,710 --> 03:59:13,870
Almost all of that I would assume would have to be restarted at a minimum.

1940
03:59:14,530 --> 03:59:15,430
I think that's right.

1941
03:59:15,870 --> 03:59:20,510
It would be restarted, so with that include projects that are also in the south.

1942
03:59:23,410 --> 03:59:27,310
So projects in the south would, the era's projects in the south would have to study.

1943
03:59:28,250 --> 03:59:28,350
Yeah.

1944
03:59:28,830 --> 03:59:30,130
Thank you.

1945
03:59:31,650 --> 03:59:34,630
I think if you, now that's just era's projects.

1946
03:59:34,850 --> 03:59:40,530
If you look at DPP22 and DPP23, that's over 100,000.

1947
03:59:41,410 --> 03:59:45,510
That's 100, some gigawatts of projects that are in there,

1948
03:59:46,430 --> 03:59:49,730
same applying the same filter of 70%, 30 gigawatts.

1949
03:59:49,730 --> 03:59:54,150
I mean, the consequences are significant.

1950
03:59:54,890 --> 03:59:58,390
I'm just beating a dead horse now, but the consequences are significant.

1951
04:00:00,910 --> 04:00:10,950
I think this is what happens when you can't do big things. That's what happens. As you, you know,

1952
04:00:10,990 --> 04:00:18,510
you nickel and dime something or you keep picking at it until it dies. And I really am hopeful that

1953
04:00:18,510 --> 04:00:31,930
Perk is going to reject the filing, and we're also most hopeful that we will support

1954
04:00:31,930 --> 04:00:37,870
doing a filing, but I mean that's all I had to say right now, I really appreciate

1955
04:00:37,870 --> 04:00:43,350
everybody coming and speaking to this, and yeah, that's all I have to say.

1956
04:00:46,840 --> 04:00:48,800
Thank you, chair Sevent.

1957
04:00:49,740 --> 04:00:52,700
Yeah, I don't have much question.

1958
04:00:52,940 --> 04:00:54,120
I'll just make some statement.

1959
04:00:54,860 --> 04:00:58,540
I think I start my work in energy in 2003.

1960
04:00:59,540 --> 04:01:01,420
I start my job at the department.

1961
04:01:02,040 --> 04:01:06,860
And since 2005, I start to cover my resources adequacy

1962
04:01:06,860 --> 04:01:09,460
and my transmission planning.

1963
04:01:10,500 --> 04:01:12,600
Since I moved to commission in 2012,

1964
04:01:13,700 --> 04:01:16,240
I was becoming full-time covering my issue.

1965
04:01:16,240 --> 04:01:25,200
So as Commissioner Sullivan said, I participated in every Mysore LRTP meeting until I became

1966
04:01:25,200 --> 04:01:25,720
Commissioner.

1967
04:01:27,040 --> 04:01:36,140
So I saw what's going on and then I had a lot of discussion with the Mysore staff,

1968
04:01:36,300 --> 04:01:40,000
other state staff regarding this long-term transmission planning.

1969
04:01:42,840 --> 04:01:46,620
Not engaging in the merit of the individual project because potentially we have to approve

1970
04:01:46,620 --> 04:01:53,820
this project that we can assure that there was a proper process, states are monitoring.

1971
04:01:54,640 --> 04:02:00,980
I think a miceau is providing funding to the organization of miceau state to monitor its

1972
04:02:00,980 --> 04:02:02,320
own planning process.

1973
04:02:03,820 --> 04:02:09,800
So Minnesota is one of the active state, really engaging in even engineering analysis,

1974
04:02:09,800 --> 04:02:18,280
assistance from the Mysore, and then also way that funding, we were able to access the software,

1975
04:02:19,300 --> 04:02:20,160
technical expertise.

1976
04:02:22,420 --> 04:02:26,300
Even that wasn't good enough, organized as one of my state asked for

1977
04:02:26,300 --> 04:02:38,420
additional funding to hire independent engineering company to monitor this process during the

1978
04:02:38,420 --> 04:02:45,600
process, probably people may not see it, who didn't follow this issue very closely.

1979
04:02:46,700 --> 04:02:57,840
Being said, my so-ambient P project was approved in 2010-2011, but Minnesota utility has

1980
04:02:57,840 --> 04:03:05,540
a long history of a collaborative transition planning from the U.M.T.D.I. upon the rest

1981
04:03:05,540 --> 04:03:07,260
transmission development initiative.

1982
04:03:08,140 --> 04:03:11,800
At the time, our neighboring state, including Dakoras

1983
04:03:11,800 --> 04:03:15,680
and Wisconsin, Iowa, Illinois, everybody, we

1984
04:03:15,680 --> 04:03:16,640
worked together.

1985
04:03:17,480 --> 04:03:21,460
I'm very disappointed at this point that we are getting

1986
04:03:21,460 --> 04:03:25,600
becoming like in this situation, because our

1987
04:03:25,600 --> 04:03:30,260
opomidvest tradition is being attacked, not just Minnesota,

1988
04:03:30,840 --> 04:03:34,760
but our way of lifestyle at the opomidvest,

1989
04:03:34,760 --> 04:03:45,760
including Dakotas, we were working together, we already addressed a lot of issue and concern of other states through this process behind the scene as OMS.

1990
04:03:46,540 --> 04:03:56,980
If somebody think it's not fair to the state, OMS was always addressing that issue to Mysore and Mysore as a proactively reacting to it.

1991
04:03:56,980 --> 04:04:08,480
So, that's why I was very surprised and disappointed that plus I don't know why Southern 3 states are initiating this, then I'm going to pay any time on this project.

1992
04:04:10,060 --> 04:04:13,180
They clearly reject not to do this one.

1993
04:04:13,620 --> 04:04:25,160
So, my thoughts had to go long distance to revising this type to separate them from this LRTB process until 3 and 4 becomes the real project.

1994
04:04:26,500 --> 04:04:33,760
Being said, only economic speculation I can make in their behavior is that they are initiating

1995
04:04:33,760 --> 04:04:37,380
another and take competitive process.

1996
04:04:38,280 --> 04:04:45,880
Originally, ENTAGY was forced to join Mysore or any RTO on the DOJ investigation, and now

1997
04:04:45,880 --> 04:04:52,540
I see similar pattern here, they are trying to create this and take competitive environment,

1998
04:04:52,540 --> 04:04:59,980
not building transmission line so they can corner their market so even though we

1999
04:05:00,000 --> 04:05:06,540
They are building trans 1 and 2.1, 2.2, they are not going to pay any time, even if we have a

2000
04:05:06,540 --> 04:05:13,300
trans 4, that will open the gate to the energy to the south, because miles of tarp can not go back and

2001
04:05:13,300 --> 04:05:19,640
rat to actively charge them. Even though we are charging PJM and SPP, if they are getting benefit

2002
04:05:19,640 --> 04:05:24,700
from these lines under the MVP tab, they are paying for it.

2003
04:05:25,540 --> 04:05:30,020
So that's why only economic rationale for me

2004
04:05:30,020 --> 04:05:35,040
is they are trying to do this and pay competitive behavior

2005
04:05:35,690 --> 04:05:38,860
by hurting everybody to protect their economic interest.

2006
04:05:40,100 --> 04:05:41,680
That's why I was very disappointed

2007
04:05:41,680 --> 04:05:45,400
because we went through this process for more than five years.

2008
04:05:45,400 --> 04:05:49,080
We created long-range transfigure planning principle,

2009
04:05:50,260 --> 04:05:54,240
and we went to a trench one and 2.1 process.

2010
04:05:55,320 --> 04:05:58,560
And we tried to address everybody's concern as much as possible.

2011
04:05:59,420 --> 04:06:01,680
And I think a lot of people doesn't see that

2012
04:06:01,680 --> 04:06:05,400
because we're less working behind the scene and trying to address

2013
04:06:05,400 --> 04:06:07,720
every state's concern if they had a concern.

2014
04:06:09,260 --> 04:06:14,760
But now it become the federal energy regulatory commission proceeding.

2015
04:06:14,760 --> 04:06:22,280
we have to go against some of our neighboring states interests and their opinion, but it is not

2016
04:06:22,280 --> 04:06:29,360
about personal attack on other states. We have to defend this process because it is good for

2017
04:06:29,360 --> 04:06:36,760
everybody. Based on the Myself process, this project will benefit a lot of all Myself state

2018
04:06:37,360 --> 04:06:44,320
in addition to that. Based on what we saw during the Wintosum Yuri and Elliot, Myself and BP

2019
04:06:44,320 --> 04:06:51,160
project enable the mice to play the critical role providing energy to the mice's east and

2020
04:06:51,160 --> 04:06:58,740
west neighboring RTO so they can be saved from the blackout and potentially saving people's life.

2021
04:07:00,660 --> 04:07:07,400
So not only this is a tack on the Minnesota or Midwest, it can potentially really harm the whole

2022
04:07:07,400 --> 04:07:13,160
nation because mice is in the middle of the nation not having enough transport capability

2023
04:07:13,160 --> 04:07:21,260
can potentially harm our eastern and western neighbor. So hopefully the challenge party

2024
04:07:21,260 --> 04:07:27,620
understand this overall consequence and they withdraw their filing as soon as they can.

2025
04:07:30,840 --> 04:07:36,720
Yeah, if I could build off of that, I am also disappointed in our neighbors to the north. I appreciate

2026
04:07:36,720 --> 04:07:42,260
the hard work that they do and I don't want to belittle that. But when I look at the map on page four of

2027
04:07:43,420 --> 04:07:48,960
We've got to go through the hard work of permitting two major lines to help serve their

2028
04:07:48,960 --> 04:07:53,860
low and up and far go, okay, to help them have stable a service.

2029
04:07:54,480 --> 04:07:55,000
It's a lot of work.

2030
04:07:55,000 --> 04:07:58,900
You just saw it's a fight in their butts off to try to get a line figured out, just one

2031
04:07:58,900 --> 04:08:00,480
15 KV light.

2032
04:08:00,900 --> 04:08:05,260
Can you imagine some of these 765s?

2033
04:08:05,800 --> 04:08:09,960
It's not going to be easy work and we're doing it to help make the whole system reliable.

2034
04:08:09,960 --> 04:08:15,780
Mr. Dolan, I was sitting on a meeting yesterday at SPP because they're starting to build

2035
04:08:15,780 --> 04:08:21,560
a backbone of 765s and we found something very interesting and provided this to Mr.

2036
04:08:21,660 --> 04:08:27,720
Commissioner Sullivan and to Mr. Witt and Commissioner Haam, is that they're building

2037
04:08:27,720 --> 04:08:29,400
a backbone up to the pocket.

2038
04:08:30,080 --> 04:08:33,140
Their future, their future backbone is going to go to the pocket.

2039
04:08:33,140 --> 04:08:44,960
Okay. It's also going to go out to the oil fields of new Mexico. Okay. To serve what they think is their future energy all above. Okay. Go for it.

2040
04:08:44,980 --> 04:09:02,580
Mago way. Okay. But let me tell you one of the keys that we found out yesterday is they see one of the important things is to link that backbone with the 765 KV line going into the Brookings Big Stone area to help us transfer power

2041
04:09:02,580 --> 04:09:04,620
and those emergencies, like you said,

2042
04:09:04,720 --> 04:09:07,740
Commissioner Ham, when the lights are going out in Chicago

2043
04:09:07,740 --> 04:09:11,460
and bringing us down, who's gonna save our butts, okay?

2044
04:09:11,920 --> 04:09:18,580
It's those guys out in Oklahoma and Kansas and Nebraska.

2045
04:09:19,040 --> 04:09:20,820
It's those power plants that we need

2046
04:09:20,820 --> 04:09:24,360
and they're thinking already of interlinking those, okay?

2047
04:09:25,260 --> 04:09:27,100
This makes sense and I appreciate

2048
04:09:27,100 --> 04:09:30,720
we join SPP just to make sure you guys are talking together

2049
04:09:30,720 --> 04:09:31,660
and I have to tell you,

2050
04:09:31,660 --> 04:09:37,760
you've been doing a great job. I appreciate what I've been seeing from Miso and SPP working together to

2051
04:09:37,760 --> 04:09:43,200
feel out to make that inner transfer of those power happen and that's directly going to benefit

2052
04:09:43,200 --> 04:09:49,700
North Dakota and Montana. So I am extremely disappointed in my friends up in the Dakotas and Montana

2053
04:09:49,700 --> 04:09:55,560
for not seeing the bigger picture that's going on here and that how Miso has been working hard to

2054
04:09:55,560 --> 04:09:59,980
make that happen to make our region on that scene more reliable.

2055
04:10:00,370 --> 04:10:08,970
So, I appreciate that work. I'm going to continue to force it at SPP. I would hope they would see that the benefits that they're tripping up right now.

2056
04:10:14,200 --> 04:10:21,960
Thank you, Chair Sivan. I, like, several of the parties would say that many of the points I would make have been made.

2057
04:10:22,760 --> 04:10:30,980
I will just say coming up to a higher level the way I'm thinking about this is that reliable

2058
04:10:30,980 --> 04:10:36,120
adequate and abundant electricity is the foundation of our economy across the country.

2059
04:10:36,600 --> 04:10:41,960
It is the foundation of our society, it is what allows us to live on the Tundra.

2060
04:10:42,920 --> 04:10:48,020
It is what allows our small businesses to become big businesses, it is what allows our local

2061
04:10:48,020 --> 04:10:56,800
communities to grow. And this complaint threatens that for our region. I am also very disappointed

2062
04:10:59,220 --> 04:11:08,180
that the complaining states brought this complaint. I appreciate the long-term planning and

2063
04:11:08,180 --> 04:11:14,940
the deep engagement that Myso does with all of our states to make sure that our needs are being met

2064
04:11:14,940 --> 04:11:24,840
And that our utilities are able to provide information to you all about some of the reliability issues and the weaknesses that they see on the system.

2065
04:11:25,260 --> 04:11:38,700
It is just a true testament to shared knowledge and having a long-term vision for our region to make sure that we can continue to operate as a healthy economy and society.

2066
04:11:40,300 --> 04:11:47,240
I absolutely support the joint comments and I am really heartened to hear about the transmission

2067
04:11:47,240 --> 04:11:53,360
owners and the work that you all will be doing to oppose this complaint.

2068
04:11:53,700 --> 04:12:01,400
I really appreciate you doing that and I don't really have a whole lot to add that that's

2069
04:12:01,400 --> 04:12:03,480
all I have to say about that.

2070
04:12:03,480 --> 04:12:07,100
Thank you, Commissioner Partridge, and fellow commissioners.

2071
04:12:07,160 --> 04:12:11,020
First, I'd just like to also, like, set the stage a little bit.

2072
04:12:11,120 --> 04:12:12,580
This is an unusual matter.

2073
04:12:12,720 --> 04:12:17,600
Normally, we don't open a DACA specific about a FERC complaint.

2074
04:12:18,580 --> 04:12:25,120
And so I just want to reiterate that the point of opening the DACA and then the commission

2075
04:12:25,120 --> 04:12:32,000
support of authorizing Commissioner Sullivan as our designated lead commissioner to sign

2076
04:12:32,000 --> 04:12:36,780
And the joint comments is to comply with the state's open meeting law.

2077
04:12:37,460 --> 04:12:45,480
And so we wanted to have this hearing to be transparent about the Commission's support

2078
04:12:45,480 --> 04:12:47,880
of joining the joint comments.

2079
04:12:48,940 --> 04:12:56,700
And that is a high level view to attempt, for me, to express gratitude to Commissioner Sullivan

2080
04:12:56,700 --> 04:13:05,880
for his leadership as the OMS president and not only like leading our efforts from the Minnesota

2081
04:13:05,880 --> 04:13:14,060
perspective, but also all he's done on behalf of OMS to help advance transmission planning

2082
04:13:14,060 --> 04:13:19,640
in the upper Midwest and throughout the country. So first of all, thank you Commissioner Salvin

2083
04:13:19,640 --> 04:13:29,080
for all your work that you do, and also to our staff, Commissioner Ham, and others who have

2084
04:13:29,080 --> 04:13:36,200
worked really hard on getting the briefing papers ready today in a very short time frame.

2085
04:13:36,260 --> 04:13:44,920
I know it was difficult over the holiday weekend, and it has been a little bit tricky just

2086
04:13:44,920 --> 04:13:53,980
to continue to work on the joint comments that are being drafted right now, that are still

2087
04:13:53,980 --> 04:14:00,260
a work in progress because the submission deadline has noted in the briefing papers

2088
04:14:00,260 --> 04:14:08,120
isn't until next week, but by having this discussion, by hearing from my so-and the utilities

2089
04:14:08,120 --> 04:14:14,480
and other stakeholders, we, I think, as a commission, are comfortable moving forward with,

2090
04:14:15,020 --> 04:14:22,220
or at least I certainly am, with authorizing commission or Sullivan to sign those comments,

2091
04:14:22,280 --> 04:14:29,360
even though we don't have them exactly in front of us, to help highlight the overall importance

2092
04:14:29,360 --> 04:14:36,280
of this complaint. But I think what's been expressed today, and also, I just want to spend

2093
04:14:36,280 --> 04:14:42,920
minute highlighting is that it really is unusual to have a complaint like this come at this

2094
04:14:42,920 --> 04:14:50,480
stage and the threat it all poses to our joint planning and coordination we do as state commissions

2095
04:14:50,940 --> 04:14:57,600
with entities that are here. So, one thing that I've talked to staff about that I haven't shared

2096
04:14:57,600 --> 04:14:59,980
with commissioners or other

2097
04:15:00,000 --> 04:15:12,440
Members yet is what else we can do as a commission to enhance and support the filing to the

2098
04:15:12,440 --> 04:15:19,880
FERC in our own capacity. And so one thing I wanted to ask, commissioners, if they'd be supportive

2099
04:15:20,680 --> 04:15:29,980
of, and particularly Dr. Weikoff, is if it would be helpful to also have, so assuming that

2100
04:15:29,980 --> 04:15:37,620
the Commission approves decision option one, which is as everyone knows having the Commission

2101
04:15:37,620 --> 04:15:47,400
sign on to the joint comments to the FERC. Should we also submit a filing that is more

2102
04:15:47,400 --> 04:15:55,480
Minnesota specific on behalf of the public entities that have been wane in on this? So I'm envisioning

2103
04:15:55,480 --> 04:16:03,400
here, Dr. Weikoff, that it would be relatively short letter that is somehow indicating

2104
04:16:03,400 --> 04:16:10,760
that it's consistent with measures that were discussed here today that were laid out

2105
04:16:10,760 --> 04:16:17,740
in the briefing papers consistent with the joint comments where the Minnesota Department

2106
04:16:17,740 --> 04:16:25,460
of commerce would then have a venue and an avenue to sign a joint letter with the commission

2107
04:16:25,460 --> 04:16:28,480
and perhaps other entities to the firm.

2108
04:16:28,620 --> 04:16:33,080
Is that something you think you'd be supportive of and it's a good idea?

2109
04:16:33,860 --> 04:16:39,260
Thank you, Chair Sivan, and yes, as we discussed, as the cabinet agency and on speaking

2110
04:16:39,260 --> 04:16:43,220
on behalf of the Walls Administration, we would welcome the opportunity to collaborate with

2111
04:16:43,220 --> 04:16:47,820
commission on a joint statement from the public entities in Minnesota.

2112
04:16:48,840 --> 04:16:55,940
And because this is all like coming together in a very short time frame as we know, the

2113
04:16:55,940 --> 04:17:00,640
states didn't want to even give us an extension to work this out a little better.

2114
04:17:01,120 --> 04:17:08,060
The utilities I know you mentioned, you are already filing as the Minnesota utilities or

2115
04:17:08,060 --> 04:17:16,380
joining other entities in filing comments, as well, would the Minnesota utilities welcome

2116
04:17:16,380 --> 04:17:24,760
signing on to a short letter like Dr. Wycoff and I just discussed or are you covered for

2117
04:17:24,760 --> 04:17:31,900
your own, like all of the Minnesota utilities are going to file. I'm not wording this question

2118
04:17:31,900 --> 04:17:41,160
correctly or easily. Does any ministerial utility want to join a letter with the Commission

2119
04:17:41,160 --> 04:17:48,900
and Dr. Wycoff, which we don't have fully written yet, but would be consistent with

2120
04:17:48,900 --> 04:17:57,900
the discussion today. So we are signing as Minnesota entities solely. Mr. Ellis, you seem

2121
04:17:57,900 --> 04:18:04,220
to be nodding along like you're understanding my confusing question or you can also certainly

2122
04:18:04,220 --> 04:18:12,300
say that you're already working together or individually to answer the complaint and you

2123
04:18:12,300 --> 04:18:16,620
don't want to join. That's perfectly fine, because I understand you're already filing anyway.

2124
04:18:17,440 --> 04:18:20,840
So, chair Stephen, commissioners know very much appreciate to ask you. I understand what you're

2125
04:18:20,840 --> 04:18:27,340
saying, we are, so a greater of energy, we are filing with other, with other, my so wide

2126
04:18:27,340 --> 04:18:32,560
transmission owners, as far as submitting an additional letter from greater of energy.

2127
04:18:33,320 --> 04:18:36,120
Can we take that back, discuss it, and then get back to you?

2128
04:18:37,080 --> 04:18:42,740
And I think that nature of what we're likely to do, because, again, the comments are do,

2129
04:18:42,740 --> 04:18:54,120
shortly is the Commission Executive Secretary and will work with Dr. Wikoff. We'll have the draft

2130
04:18:54,740 --> 04:19:02,980
submitted or then circulate it and then folks could sign on if they want to. So I don't know

2131
04:19:02,980 --> 04:19:09,200
if anyone, if I should put other utilities on the spot, if that's something you'd want to consider or not,

2132
04:19:10,620 --> 04:19:11,880
Mr. Dobson.

2133
04:19:12,200 --> 04:19:16,820
Sure, Madam Chair. I think we're in line with Jerry. We'll have you to take it back.

2134
04:19:16,900 --> 04:19:24,600
Obviously, we're filing our own and we're covered there, but we're certainly happy to take a look at a letter and talk about it internally.

2135
04:19:26,620 --> 04:19:35,020
Okay. It's probably consistent. Well, do that or attempt to do that at the very least, though, if the commissioners support it,

2136
04:19:35,020 --> 04:19:43,320
will have the Minnesota Commissioners and the Minnesota Department of Commerce submit a brief statement

2137
04:19:43,320 --> 04:19:51,540
or a brief letter stating the support. And that OIG isn't here but I would suggest that we

2138
04:19:51,540 --> 04:19:58,560
reach out to the OIG if perhaps they're watching and want to join this as another public entity

2139
04:19:58,560 --> 04:19:59,480
where this is of.

2140
04:20:00,000 --> 04:20:29,980
Significant importance. Then the other thing I'd just like to, I don't think we need a specific motion on it, but I would just like to state, is that, because, again, this is an unusual complaint, as somewhat unusual docket, the commission, maybe we should have a vote on it, that we're directing our executive secretary to work on legal matters related to the complaint, with the exception that approval.

2141
04:20:30,000 --> 04:20:34,160
of litigation, filings will continue to be approved by the Commission.

2142
04:20:34,860 --> 04:20:40,500
And the rationale and the reason for having a public discussion of this is that, you

2143
04:20:40,500 --> 04:20:47,920
know, should the Commission or should the Minnesota lose, or should the FERC complaint

2144
04:20:47,920 --> 04:20:54,900
move forward and the FERC not side on our side that we're advocating for?

2145
04:20:54,900 --> 04:21:02,800
They likely will be more significant legal expenses for the commission to continue to argue

2146
04:21:02,800 --> 04:21:09,560
the case. And so I don't think we need to, I don't know if we have to have more of a discussion

2147
04:21:09,560 --> 04:21:16,580
about it or not. But as the chair, I just wanted to raise that commissioners are aware that we would

2148
04:21:16,580 --> 04:21:25,480
authorize our executive secretary to continue to pursue legal options and, you know, there

2149
04:21:25,480 --> 04:21:30,780
may need to be budgetary requests or other things that are made should the complaint

2150
04:21:30,780 --> 04:21:35,440
go forward in a way, you know, that we're all familiar with.

2151
04:21:36,240 --> 04:21:41,600
So do any commissioners have any questions about either of those, those two topics that

2152
04:21:41,600 --> 04:21:43,760
just raised,

2153
04:21:46,160 --> 04:21:55,300
then anything else that we, if we moved to authorize Commissioner at Sullivan

2154
04:21:55,960 --> 04:22:09,900
to sign the joint comments, we authorize our executive secretary to work on joint

2155
04:22:09,900 --> 04:22:16,100
and direct the executive secretary to work on legal matters related to the complaint.

2156
04:22:17,460 --> 04:22:20,980
That seems to be like kind of where we're at right now.

2157
04:22:22,240 --> 04:22:30,040
And just to be clear, there's not going to be an order that come, a formal order that comes out of the stocket here today,

2158
04:22:30,420 --> 04:22:36,740
just a motion. And so that's sort of my loose motion overall.

2159
04:22:38,220 --> 04:22:39,540
Commissioner Han.

2160
04:22:40,000 --> 04:22:40,660
Thank you, Chair Sevent.

2161
04:22:41,260 --> 04:22:42,520
As long as we understand,

2162
04:22:42,820 --> 04:22:44,560
I think I probably all

2163
04:22:44,560 --> 04:22:46,060
Commission already understood

2164
04:22:46,060 --> 04:22:47,300
but I think for the public.

2165
04:22:47,800 --> 04:22:50,680
We are not advocating the project itself

2166
04:22:50,680 --> 04:22:52,260
because we are going to be

2167
04:22:52,260 --> 04:22:54,040
evaluating individual project

2168
04:22:54,040 --> 04:22:55,660
as it comes to the commission.

2169
04:22:56,280 --> 04:22:57,660
So we are trying to protect

2170
04:22:57,660 --> 04:22:59,400
the planning process that

2171
04:22:59,400 --> 04:23:01,280
Miso is doing so.

2172
04:23:01,460 --> 04:23:03,860
Making sure that we are

2173
04:23:03,860 --> 04:23:12,140
and evaluating these projects in the MISO wide plan and then in the visual project will be evaluated with its own merit at the commission.

2174
04:23:12,940 --> 04:23:17,680
No, that's a really good point and thank you for emphasizing that commissioner.

2175
04:23:20,260 --> 04:23:25,620
Any other discussion or questions from the parties or commissioners?

2176
04:23:25,640 --> 04:23:30,640
Otherwise it's my very loose motion that I made clear enough.

2177
04:23:31,700 --> 04:23:36,000
Commissioners, then all in favor of my motion, please say aye.

2178
04:23:36,000 --> 04:23:36,580
Aye.

2179
04:23:37,440 --> 04:23:37,800
Opposed.

2180
04:23:38,260 --> 04:23:40,320
The motion prevails five to zero.

2181
04:23:40,880 --> 04:23:42,140
Thank you very much, everyone.

2182
04:23:43,200 --> 04:23:44,520
And thanks for your good work.

2183
04:23:45,160 --> 04:23:48,820
There's no other business before the Commission so we're adjourned for the day.