[0:00] Thank you, everybody.
In accordance with the exception 3D of
[0:04] chapter 231 of the public laws of 1975
otherwise known as the Sunshine Law.
[0:09] Roll call.
>> Paul Meyer
[0:12] Jose Abreu
>> Here.
[0:14] » Jeff Paletti
Ken Schlae
[0:16] » Here.
>> Jose Medeiros
[0:18] » Here.
>> Phil Bellan
[0:19] » Here.
>> Grace Anne
[0:21] » Here.
>> Fred Nelson
[0:23] » Here.
>> Ryan MacIntyre
[0:24] » Here.
>> Alexa Carnahan
[0:27] » Here.
>> Stephen Lorenzo
[0:28] » Here.
>> Daniel McDonald
[0:30] » Here.
>> Brad Plowman
[0:33] » I'm Dexter.
>> Here.
[0:35] » Stewart
>> Please rise for the pledge.
[0:42] » I pledge allegiance to the flag of the
United States of America, and to the
[0:46] republic for which it stands, one nation
under God, indivisible, with liberty and
[0:52] justice for all.
[1:01] » Will there be a roll call of the public?
>> So moved.
[1:04] » Second.
>> All those in favor?
[1:07] » Aye.
>> Any comments?
[1:09] » Yeah. Yeah, uh
I think David Sanders is on the
[1:13] Okay, did you guys get the letter from
the Environmental Commission?
[1:18] Uh we wrote a letter to the mayor.
>> I was in the Traffic Committee, no. We
[1:22] don't have that.
>> You don't have that. So, it um I can
[1:25] send it to you. If at the Traffic
Committee, he didn't have it out because
[1:29] he said it was only in We're only
advisory, which is true. But, I I don't
[1:34] mind sending it to you. And also, we had
attached a model ordinance from
[1:38] Commissioner Kern, I think, Warren
County. So, I can send that all
[1:42] email it to Monica, but I was wondering
if you would like me to uh read it
[1:46] during your your comment at that time
when you get get to that agenda item.
[1:52] Okay.
>> Yeah.
[1:52] » Very good.
>> We're good to have
[1:58] Yeah, you might as well do it now so we
don't have to
[2:00] stand here.
I didn't have a chance to make copies or
[2:03] email and search.
Hello mayor mayor, as members of the
[2:08] environmental commission we have been
concerned about the rapidly growing
[2:11] development of data centers across the
state and the country. We have examined
[2:16] the pros and cons of the development of
data centers in Bethlehem Township and
[2:20] have come to the conclusion that the
negatives far outweigh any positives. We
[2:24] urge the Township committee to enact an
immediate ban or long-term moratorium on
[2:29] the allowance of data centers within our
municipality. While often framed as
[2:33] clean tech investments, evidence from
across the country reveals that data
[2:37] centers operate as resource intensive
intensive industrial buildings that
[2:42] offer negligible permanent employee
employment while placing an
[2:46] unsustainable strain on environment,
community, and infrastructure. We
[2:50] request that you consider the following
evidence-based arguments for a ban.
[2:54] Number one, unsustainable resource
consumption.
[2:58] Even small data centers consume hundreds
of thousands of gallons of water daily.
[3:03] This is particularly concerning for our
Township whose residents rely 100% on
[3:08] ground water from aquifers and
frequently face
[3:12] Number two, strain on the energy grid
and increased energy costs. These
[3:17] facilities use excessive amounts of
electrical energy. This results in
[3:21] residential electric electricity rate
hikes due to a higher demand and cost of
[3:26] infrastructure improvements to
accommodate the increased load. Number
[3:30] three, job minimal job creation. Unlike
traditional industrial sectors, data
[3:35] centers are non-labor intensive. While
construction creates temporary roles, a
[3:40] finished facility will provide very few
jobs, many of which are low-wage
[3:45] security or maintenance. Number four,
health and quality of life impacts.
[3:50] Residents living near existing data
centers report constant low-frequency
[3:54] noise pollution from cooling fans and
air quality issues from industrial size
[3:59] diesel backup generators.
These generators emit nitrogen oxides
[4:04] and particulate matter linked to
respiratory and heart disease.
[4:09] Number five, environmental impact. The
heated wastewater leaving the facility
[4:13] would create new pathways and increase
the surface water temperature to the
[4:17] wetlands and
and repairing zones, which would have a
[4:20] drastic effect on wetland and stream
ecology. This would impact the water
[4:24] that recharges aquifers that supply
residential drinking water, as well as
[4:29] Spruce Run Reservoir and the
Musconetcong River. Number six, heat
[4:33] islands. Increased ambient temperatures
are being experienced for miles
[4:38] surrounding by data centers. The
increased localized heat burden is a
[4:42] nuisance for neighbors with increased
cooling costs. The potential respiratory
[4:47] health effects
on people and potential environmental
[4:51] impacts of the disrupted ecosystems due
to these microclimates are still
[4:55] unknown.
Number seven, pollution impact. If a
[4:59] closed-loop cooling system is utilized,
the water used to cool the facility
[5:03] usually contains PFAS coolants
compounds, which when they leak or need
[5:08] to be drained, will end up in the
aquifer and further contaminate the
[5:12] drinking water for residents.
Number eight, public impact. These
[5:16] facilities are giant windowless
structures that offer no public
[5:19] amenities, diminish property values to
the surrounding areas, and would ruin
[5:23] the quiet character of our community.
Bethlehem Township should prioritize the
[5:28] long-term stewardship of our water,
power, and land for the benefit of
[5:33] residents, rather than subsidizing the
expansion of tech corporations and
[5:37] chasing ratables. We urge the Township
Committee to follow the lead of other
[5:42] forward-thinking communities and protect
our future by banning this industrial
[5:46] use. Warren County Commissioner Curran
has drafted a model ordinance attached.
[5:52] Municipalities across Warren County,
across New Jersey, and across the
[5:55] country have recognized that these types
of developments are not good neighbors
[5:59] and have passed ordinance this year
banning data centers in their community
[6:04] due to all the factors listed above. We
strongly encourage the Bethlehem
[6:08] Township Committee to adopt an ordinance
to codify a ban on data centers in our
[6:13] municipality.
Thank you for letting me leave.
[6:16] » Can I Can I Can I ask you a question?
>> Yeah.
[6:18] » Did you
Did the
[6:19] um
Did the
[6:22] environmental commission identify
anywhere where these could be built in
[6:26] Bethlehem?
>> So, we didn't specifically look at it
[6:30] from that point of view, but we were
thinking not just mega data centers, but
[6:36] small ones as well. Like, I know Mayor
Mirror had mentioned the cornfield right
[6:41] on 173. Came to the environmental
commission as a matter of fact. I
[6:46] mentioned that specific property. I
don't know if it can be built there or
[6:49] not. I don't We didn't address that. We
were just kind of in general trying to
[6:55] encourage the township to be ahead of
it rather than be proactive because
[7:00] sometimes are being sued right now. I
think Andover and another one because
[7:05] they waited and then the developer comes
in. So, no, we did not look at specific
[7:10] properties or is it feasible or not. We
just were trying to
[7:15] Just like warehouses, you know, have to
be proactive.
[7:18] » Yeah, I mean, no warehouses is actually
able to be built in Bethlehem.
[7:23] » Well, because we put that in our master
plan.
[7:25] » No, not in the master plan. Yes, we did.
>> Because the Highlands
[7:28] » We did put it in the master plan.
>> We did, guys.
[7:31] » That's all I'm saying.
>> But
[7:33] Yeah.
>> And that And there is a planning area,
[7:35] too.
>> Yep, we know that.
[7:36] » The planning area. Highlands planning
area, which has overlay on that.
[7:40] » Yeah, but that that isn't
That wouldn't be contiguous.
[7:44] » and that is not a question.
>> Similar to the warehouses, we were just
[7:47] trying to have the township be proactive
rather than reactive.
[7:52] » Okay,
thank you. Thank you.
[7:56] » I agree with your sentiments that
the idea, I just wonder whether or not
[8:00] it's just, you know, an ordinance
looking for something to ban because I
[8:04] just don't think that it can happen in
our town, but you
[8:08] » Until it happens.
>> Well,
[8:09] » It never got approved in the past.
>> I Yeah.
[8:13] » is the impervious coverage of that is
old building and old pavement.
[8:16] » Yeah.
>> So, you would never get the impervious
[8:18] coverage in Highlands to to approve it.
>> And anywhere in the in the Highlands in
[8:23] the preservation area, there's no way
you can do that.
[8:26] » The only advantage is you probably need
less parking lot
[8:31] for the warehouse.
>> Yeah, I'm home.
[8:33] » But I think it's just like when we talk
about warehouses, putting all of our
[8:36] eggs in basket of God is will save us is
probably not wise. Cuz you just don't
[8:41] know. Everything
>> guaranteed that it's going to it can
[8:43] change. The administration can change.
>> I'd rather I'd rather be the driver of
[8:48] our own ship.
>> Except the Highlands has saved this
[8:51] through
probably the the most adverse
[8:55] administrations through the Highlands
and
[8:58] nobody was ever able to get around the
Highlands. Just as nobody's been able to
[9:02] ever get around the Pinelands.
And the Pinelands is where
[9:07] um
you know, it's it's really the what the
[9:09] model for the Highlands and the
restrictions in the Pinelands you know,
[9:13] are incredible.
You know, and they they and they have
[9:16] been around for 50 years, not just, you
know, since 2004.
[9:21] » They have plenty.
>> Yeah, it's open there.
[9:23] » It's still open.
>> Yeah.
[9:25] » So, so first of all, there are some
going into Pinelands. Woodland has one.
[9:30] Second of all, in the Highlands, there's
a redevelopment and the re
[9:36] If so, it has to be 70% impervious
coverage or the Highlands can determine
[9:41] this parcel is is can be developed. So,
there are
[9:46] even today loopholes that can skirt
around being in the preservation area.
[9:52] » And Brian, well put too because
never say never. All How many times have
[9:58] we seen things become inherently
beneficial? May not be a huge one, but
[10:04] inherently beneficial. How many of us
use our cell phone? How many times do we
[10:08] need
data centers to be honest, right?
[10:13] Otherwise, things will stop.
Everything's growing. And never say
[10:17] never. All of a sudden, something that
wasn't all of a sudden is inherently
[10:20] beneficial and can
maybe be smaller,
[10:25] be allowed.
Just saying.
[10:30] » Well, we did this building in China.
[10:35] » I mean, there there there is also
discussion about having
[10:39] um
smaller servers within homes.
[10:43] That's something else that's that's
that's coming down like. So, I mean,
[10:48] they'll
Yeah, they'll offer a certain amount of
[10:50] money a month for you to host a couple
servers.
[10:53] So, that I mean, the power usage is
still going to be used. It's just going
[10:57] to be dispersed out like
So, yeah.
[11:01] Yeah, it's
I don't know if that's something that we
[11:03] want to look at with the possibility of
of that coming down. It's not a full
[11:08] Yeah, full size data center, but you
know, if everybody has five or six
[11:12] servers in each one of our houses,
you know, thousands.
[11:17] » But, there are certain things that, you
know, very valid about public services.
[11:21] Our water supply. What if we got a water
And there's been
[11:26] uh uh
incidents of potential pollution of
[11:30] water. And it goes right back into
you know, and and that's exactly what
[11:36] the Highlands
was designed to address. And that's why
[11:40] that's why the high and the the
Highlands was such a strong
[11:45] uh
uh law because they they had a lot of
[11:49] proof behind it that, you know, we are
the water source for the the majority of
[11:55] New Jersey. And so, you have to protect
that water source. And so, I mean, you
[12:01] know,
a lot of you here don't remember what it
[12:04] was like before the Highlands went
through. We were constantly being
[12:09] bombarded with development every single
meeting.
[12:13] You know, development after development
after development was looking to come
[12:17] into this town. And the day the
Highlands went through, that all
[12:21] stopped.
So, I mean, you know,
[12:24] I appreciate that the Highlands was
passed because it it not only did it
[12:30] stop a lot of overdevelopment in this
area, but it also, you know,
[12:36] it is it is
the legal protection that we really
[12:40] fight a lot of things under today. And I
think that that's something that that we
[12:45] need to keep in mind. And you know, I
I have no
[12:52] If if a if if any
uh data center wanted to come within 10
[12:58] miles of me, I think I would probably
not be happy about it.
[13:01] But at the same time, I think that in
Bethlehem Township, we have the
[13:05] protection that we need. Um and I'm not
one for really writing laws
[13:11] for something that, you know, that isn't
a possibility. If I saw a possibility of
[13:15] this, I would certainly want to do
something about it.
[13:20] » Thank you.
>> I would just like that I I think the way
[13:23] Ryan said it is best, and that is I'd
rather to the driver of your own bus. I
[13:26] think you're your own bus.
Again, what hap- Again, I
[13:30] I know what ifs, but
let's say it gets, you know, they wipe I
[13:35] mean,
is it unlikely? Sure. What if they get
[13:38] rid of the Highlands? Whatever. And then
we have no protection. And then, you
[13:43] know, I don't know I'd rather have
Personally, I'd rather be the driver of
[13:46] our own bus. That's just my opinion.
>> If they got rid of the Highlands, we
[13:49] would have plenty of notice.
>> Yeah.
[13:51] » And then we could pass all sorts of
things to make sure that And then, you
[13:57] know, we would certainly be much more
justified in defending the money that
[14:01] these sorts of
You know, cuz this this law
[14:05] in this form of business is not going to
be free. It's something that we have to
[14:08] pay for. And I just don't see what it is
that we're stopping
[14:13] at this point. You know, we we've got to
be careful.
[14:17] » Is there any way we could assess where
one could be built built or I mean,
[14:22] could they get
>> I know the environmental issues didn't
[14:25] look at it in that detail. We're just
trying to be proactive from a general
[14:29] point of view. Similar to the
warehouses. And never say never
[14:33] something can be built. Look at the
industrial zone on 173 that gets fire
[14:38] consumption, which is now industrial
zone.
[14:41] » The passive thing that is in the in
recent
[14:44] in the what?
>> Most pre-existing.
[14:46] » Yeah.
>> I I agree with you both say that
[14:49] Highlands were one of the best things
that ever happened, especially for our
[14:53] area.
However, we're not just talking now 10,
[14:57] 20, 30 years out. We're talking about
what could happen in the future. Well, I
[15:02] can
communities and states are making where
[15:06] these, no matter what size the data
center is, it has to be self-sufficient.
[15:10] Now, oh, I mean, I'm not an engineer by
no means. But who's to say if someone
[15:17] comes before and says, "Now, new
technology, I tap into this one's water
[15:23] supply down in Clinton. They allow me
to. I can come up here or over here or
[15:28] somebody, you know, down over in Warren
County. Yeah, we can do the water
[15:33] supply.
They'll We'll go in. And again, getting
[15:37] back to that inherently beneficial,
it's permitted. You I I do not know. I
[15:43] don't have a crystal ball either.
Although sometimes I'm called a witch,
[15:47] but I'm not.
Maybe I
[15:52] » What about the future? Not just talking
about ourselves.
[15:56] Talking about like we talk about
perpetuity and things like that.
[16:00] Can you head off something perhaps? Can
you put a price on that?
[16:06] » You know, I I sort of agree.
What do we wait until they come here and
[16:10] ask?
What You know, somebody developer comes
[16:14] in and builds a data center. We don't
have where
[16:18] I'm just saying.
>> It It has to be something that could be
[16:23] going into that area.
We are entirely in the preservation area
[16:28] and our in our development area is also
under the preservation rules except for
[16:33] the overlay.
And the overlay was done only
[16:38] for a specific purpose and it cannot be
industrial.
[16:42] I mean it it's again, we're we're
writing a law for something that can't
[16:47] happen in our town. If it ever gets to
the point where they can happen in our
[16:51] town, then we have time to to put this
law into effect.
[16:56] » Uh so I don't want to short-circuit the
conversation. So I'm going to listen to
[16:59] both of you. Sharon, we we held this
discussion Thursday night at our
[17:03] committee meeting. We had quite a few
people come out. Uh a lot of block
[17:06] counters, but
I I'll admit I didn't look at our agenda
[17:09] for tonight, otherwise I would have
reached out and asked. Uh I got to just
[17:12] give it to the mayor Mayor O'Rourke.
We're going to be taking action on both
[17:15] items.
Uh
[17:17] regarding data centers, yes, it's almost
impossible to put a data center in
[17:22] Bethlehem Township where there is only
office and storage already are.
[17:25] But, we want to make sure. And the
public safety members
[17:28] very much in the favor of doing that.
Uh, and yes, you would take on the cost
[17:33] of that, but
we have tablets that we can use. So, our
[17:36] attorney's already working on an
ordinance. We're going to introduce it
[17:38] at the township committee level. It will
come here to the master plan and
[17:41] conformance. And we would like to have
that passed before the end of the year.
[17:46] That, just
while we're on it, uh,
[17:50] the real rules are coming back as well.
So, we need to update some of the uh,
[17:54] storm water ordinances. So, those are
the two things that need to get done
[17:57] before the
come from the committee first, and then
[18:02] come here for master plan and
conformance and any other comments which
[18:05] would go back to the committee that need
to be done before the end of the year.
[18:09] » Sounds like a good plan. So, uh, just
going back to your point though, what if
[18:14] someone came in and bought
uh, Summit
[18:18] or
>> Summit Supply.
[18:21] » Bought the old warehouse on the other
side of the train tracks from him,
[18:24] bought out Charlie, bought out Fox
people, bought Fuel Ox,
[18:29] and
built those four existing buildings. I
[18:31] mean, that's a lot of square footage,
right? And put them and connected them
[18:36] all to the same network. They're not far
apart. That's going to generate a lot of
[18:40] noise and use a lot of water in existing
commercial buildings.
[18:43] » There's a They They converted that from
from what they are now.
[18:47] » Correct. To what they are now.
>> Do we have anything to stop that from
[18:50] happening?
>> I don't know that it would be
[18:53] I I guess that that would be
Yeah, that would be a change in use.
[18:57] » But, they're all commercial properties,
aren't they?
[19:00] » But, that doesn't mean the use is the is
allowed
[19:02] » We got a commercial as a defined use.
And that That center is not one of them.
[19:07] So, theoretically, I'm not the land use
law by not permitting that to be
[19:11] disallowed automatically. So, So, I my
caveat is it's not allowed.
[19:16] The comment that we made at the last
community meeting is everybody's we
[19:19] share here on it and every property
owner has the right to do at least try
[19:23] to do what they think they should do
with their property, which is why the
[19:26] variance process exists. So somebody
could purchase that, nobody could take
[19:30] away their right to come here for a
variance for that is on earth if they
[19:34] would so choose. So that's why the
ordinance
[19:37] » Just How do we define data center?
>> That's the key to the
[19:41] That's the key to the ordinance. So
Actually, I'll give Ken credit cuz he's
[19:45] throwing a wrench to our to our plans
because
[19:48] a lot of what we're deciding about the
size because theoretically, let's say
[19:51] you're a financial advisor and you have
a heavy duty you have a server in your
[19:55] home to work with a client, that's a
small data center.
[19:59] And so that's what was brought up as how
do we define We have This is going to be
[20:04] geared towards things that are not in
homes right now and we may need to uh
[20:09] look at that in the future because we
didn't think about kind of these you
[20:12] know, maybe there's a way to do small
connectivity data centers, but we also
[20:16] don't want to preclude somebody who has
a you know, professional or some other
[20:20] business that needs a small server in
their home. Like our our building here
[20:24] would be considered a data center based
on the size of the server that's that's
[20:27] managing your household.
So how how do that
[20:31] and
run something through our own ordinances
[20:34] by the next
[20:37] » This is a good point.
>> Can a school be considered a small
[20:43] » It'd be the same. I'm sure their servers
probably match what ours is.
[20:46] » I think I think that any government
entity
[20:50] » But I
>> But how do you get to the point where
[20:52] you're going to police what people can
put in their homes?
[20:54] » And you know what it comes down to you
mean
[20:56] » You want me to go on?
>> You see what
[20:59] going right back to
the heating, the cooling, the amount of
[21:03] energy use, you know,
all of the sudden, you know, you you go
[21:06] from a 200-amp service and now you need
to have 600-amp service part of your
[21:10] house.
Yeah, you can do that without a battery
[21:13] at the at the at the home. So, I don't
know if anyone comes to us. Yeah, yeah.
[21:18] That that would never even come
>> Do you know your home or your basement?
[21:20] Can I say that you know let's maybe say
something you know, you can't hear it so
[21:24] you're silent. We don't know what's
there. We're not out policing.
[21:27] Um we hope that people do comply and and
if you if for some reason you aren't
[21:30] complying with the day we ask for
compliance, but the technology is going
[21:33] to change. I mean, even now Xfinity
you know, you don't realize you look at
[21:37] your cable contract. Your your boxes
that's why you don't have your own
[21:41] router in your own house anymore.
Um their Xfinity phone system somebody
[21:45] pulls into your street you're an Xfinity
customer part of your data is actually
[21:49] dedicated to the smart event system. Uh
it's one of their their nodes. You you
[21:54] sign the trip right on the contract. Uh
Denver that's the probably country is
[21:58] like in Tokyo barely has any cell tower
or 5G service. They're so that's the
[22:04] problem with the phones themselves.
Create a mesh network. Everybody's
[22:07] carrying their own network within within
these densely populated areas. So, right
[22:11] now it's the Wi-Fi but eventually cell
service may do the same. And then I got
[22:14] my own little problem.
>> You got a Comcast or any other year?
[22:19] » I don't know.
>> It's Comcast.
[22:20] » I don't know. I don't know what I have
with this stupid thing that's built in.
[22:24] » I think you have the choice to put your
own in your own
[22:28] » I guess I'm trying to say you know
>> I read the contract completely.
[22:31] » I have one one
>> He's not a sucker for saying they use
[22:35] the sewer.
>> How do we know that they're in the
[22:37] sewer? Has anybody seen them in the
accounts?
[22:40] » You know, a lot of times it's a lot of
propaganda.
[22:42] » Well, they do. I mean, you can do open
loop systems or closed loop systems.
[22:46] » And she did get back. You can absolutely
have a completely closed loop system
[22:51] that's not using
>> But then just put it in your own back
[22:53] deep into the air, right?
Yeah, which is I mean I mean
[22:59] the the data centers
themselves I don't really I'm not a fan.
[23:05] Pretty cool. But, you know,
the the thing that I worry about more
[23:09] is, you know, you're right, technology
is changing. So,
[23:14] how we write that ordinance, how does
that project into the future saying, you
[23:19] know, what could be developed into the
future
[23:22] that all of a sudden gets all around our
ordinances
[23:25] and does the whole the same.
It could amount to smalls.
[23:30] » Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean,
>> I mean, a giant I mean,
[23:33] » 50-acre
>> one discussion is already past anywhere.
[23:36] Just, you know, you put four servers in
your house and you're going to get a
[23:39] thousand dollars a month of acre in
that.
[23:42] You know, you start throwing around to
every single person, you know, you're
[23:45] not doing you're not you're not
controlling it. You're controlling this
[23:48] stuff remotely.
But, if you're going to get a thousand
[23:51] thousand thousand thousand, all of a
sudden everybody in town's going to be
[23:54] putting servers in.
I mean,
[23:56] » And it's the same thing that happened
with the cell towers themselves.
[23:59] » Yeah.
>> The apartments in the cities.
[24:02] They're holding the space that they even
if they don't use it, the space that and
[24:06] money that makes for those land owners
on those apartment buildings.
[24:13] » That that's that's a really good example
because 4G needed towers.
[24:19] 5G has nodes that are on telephone poles
all over the place and we can't stop
[24:24] them.
You know, so our ordinance that that
[24:28] somehow, which wasn't possible to
control because of
[24:32] because all of us had our cell phone
with us right now.
[24:35] Um
and we also all have computers. So, that
[24:38] way it's like, you know, all these
things that we don't want is all well
[24:43] and good, but, you know,
unless we're willing to give up our
[24:47] computers,
we're going to have these things. And
[24:51] I'm all for putting them in China.
[24:54] » All right. I think they could go out
them the desert in Arizona or Texas or
[24:59] you know where they're like You don't
put them in a
[25:03] community. You know, you don't put them
in that area.
[25:05] » Yeah.
>> They'll be doing the marketing so what I
[25:07] can do
>> What is that called?
[25:10] » Raw watts.
>> Um that's supposedly for a data center.
[25:15] » Um
>> There's a lot of
[25:16] people that live right there and I don't
think that's a smart place to do it.
[25:20] Does New Jersey need a data center at
all? I don't know.
[25:24] » Oh, yeah.
>> The proximity of the data center is
[25:27] important, right? It's it's Microsoft or
whoever big companies building them.
[25:32] It doesn't matter really where it is as
long as it's connected to
[25:37] » means that they have wires going to And
so a lot of this is regional. Since it's
[25:40] why we have power plants regionalized.
>> But data centers are so much
[25:45] Data can travel a long distance real
fast. As long as you can
[25:48] » It's three hours it's three hours from
now that somebody on a plane would be
[25:51] getting in Arizona saying we need to
protect our open space.
[26:00] » But but I
I justify
[26:05] or not justified there and not justified
here, right? If if the desert
[26:09] desert needs to be protected and certain
desert towns shouldn't touch
[26:15] that word.
>> I think most of them they're going to
[26:18] want to build them close
>> The stuff is not always available.
[26:22] » Well, that
>> and the power plant.
[26:24] » I was going to say the real factor is
the
[26:26] business
the power so they need they actually
[26:28] need their own both substations. So it's
depending on whatever the power company
[26:32] is willing to to put with the power and
the water is kind of secondary because
[26:35] they're both in the system that they
really need. So
[26:40] » No. Yeah.
>> I think you got to bring up with the
[26:43] chance to meet Thursday night.
>> So so at least we maybe we start that.
[26:48] That's the benefit not having reliable
of
[26:51] » Don't bring your data center here or
we'll be out of power.
[26:54] » A lot of them
have packages of self-provisioning
[26:56] stations.
>> Uh
[26:57] you know, I haven't seen the data with
uh our our attorney and engineer both
[27:01] work with municipalities and have banned
uh data centers over you know, here in
[27:06] Hunterdon and other places.
They used to have I think it was only
[27:09] one I think it was like only 25, maybe
it's 30 at this point.
[27:13] » I think it's 26 at Bandom and then um
there's like
[27:17] many more that are in
>> Yeah, I think there's only like four in
[27:20] Hunterdon right now. So, I think it's I
think it's the uh I think it's smart at
[27:25] least to have something
passed through it before the end of the
[27:29] year to get it started.
Uh and maybe uh our our chairman is very
[27:34] proficient in reviewing ordinances. I
know you've done that before, so maybe
[27:36] we put on some
declarations to look like every every 18
[27:41] months to review this or every year or
something or other like that.
[27:44] » Yeah, I don't know how how much it
changed, so we can always adjust it.
[27:50] » Yeah, the thought I had is maybe for
future discussion. I may have been
[27:54] overthinking this, but
is one of the you know, question I asked
[27:58] is how do you define a data center,
right? And
[28:01] how do you define a warehouse? How do
you define a warehouse versus lightning
[28:05] manufacturing like over in Branchburg,
you know, where they're having that
[28:08] debate?
And instead of defining a business and
[28:12] then
saying we don't want that,
[28:16] we're better off
writing ordinances against
[28:20] the characteristics of businesses that
we don't want.
[28:23] Massive power consumption, massive
electric usage, huge number of tractor
[28:27] trailer parking spots or parking spaces.
And don't
[28:31] » Well, there is what you call
>> But then you have to define huge.
[28:34] » Well, I'll I'll give you a number.
I don't know what the I don't know off
[28:38] the top of my head how much a data
center
[28:40] » water it uses to me.
>> I don't know if you know what a Yeah,
[28:42] that's what a four family four person
residential house uses for water, but we
[28:47] can easily come up with numbers and say
if your business you know if you go to a
[28:51] restaurant I used to own one and I tried
to look at their water bill and see what
[28:55] we went through in the restaurant and
brewed our own beer. Whatever we could
[28:58] come up with numbers and say you know,
if you're in business or a new business
[29:03] coming in, we're going to put a water
meter on it and this is what water
[29:06] consumption is limited to. Like you
can't go over this or something along I
[29:09] don't know. I'm not saying I have the
right answer. The point is what what are
[29:13] we concerned about? We're concerned
about water usage, concerned about
[29:17] electric usage, we're concerned about,
you know, drainage and stuff like that.
[29:21] So if we
address the problems without putting a
[29:24] label on it, is that a better way to go?
That's just kind of a
[29:27] » That was the sole discussion. So there's
an idea there is a
[29:31] our attorney and engineer who said we
had two paths in the ordinance just to
[29:35] to ban as centers. I think it's like all
you ban data set data centers and then
[29:39] put some definitions under it or
conditional ordinance which then defines
[29:44] the conditions you're trying to avoid.
Yeah, for that. And so I think you know
[29:49] there's an idea like yeah, we would ban
data centers and and and that's nice and
[29:53] clear and it's easy. I think the
conditional ordinance may be a little
[29:56] more complicated but may serve our
purposes better. And so uh you know, I'm
[30:02] hoping to have something our next
meeting is September 3rd. First of all I
[30:06] got to try I I think maybe I've been to
second September meeting before we
[30:09] introduce this or at least have the
first discussion and then introduce it
[30:13] in our first meeting in October to make
sure we have the time to
[30:16] » It's like the statement is simple.
>> Yeah, so so so there will be some some
[30:20] review and things in this. And then of
course comes here. So there will be a
[30:24] lot of thoughts here as well. I remember
the fence ordinance I thought it would
[30:28] be nice and smooth and that and you guys
figured out two hours worth of
[30:32] discussion and that and you appreciate I
really do appreciate that. Yeah, I must
[30:36] say I appreciate it.
>> I agree with
[30:38] » I'm not saying that I agree with
you here but I'm just saying in the
[30:41] future for any other situation in
itself. Be aware of what an error is to
[30:45] be made.
>> It's not the fine substance, don't
[30:47] define it. Attack the issue.
>> I agree, sir. Go back.
[30:51] » I I believe that that
the way
[30:55] our board is supposed to work is exactly
that, that we have, you know, we just
[30:59] define it. A lot of those things in our
master plan, which is why we always ask
[31:04] whether or not, you know,
our
[31:07] ordinances conform to our master plan.
And so, you know, all those things, you
[31:13] know, everything that that that the
that the that was
[31:18] stipulated about what we don't like
about data centers,
[31:23] I agree with. And, you know, and and
it's part of
[31:27] the basis for why we we could ban
data centers. And, you know, but those
[31:33] things should actually also be in our
master
[31:37] plan to give heat to the to any ban that
we had. Cuz any ban that we put
[31:43] together, we could say we don't like
data centers, which is not a way that
[31:47] you're supposed to do
zoning.
[31:50] Zoning is supposed to be done because
there are reasons that you've already
[31:54] articulated in the master plan that say
why it is that this use should not be
[32:00] allowed. And as long as we have those
those
[32:05] excuses or those those reasons already
in our master plan, then we're much
[32:10] safer. We could say that we don't want
data centers because of all the reasons
[32:15] that they articulated. And and that
gives us the defense that we need in
[32:21] court, so that when we do get sued, we
can win.
[32:25] » That might actually be really the the
best reason to support more of a
[32:29] conditional ordinance than something
more specific to data centers. Because
[32:32] if you think about a master plan, you
talk about protecting resources and the
[32:36] natural environment and all that other
stuff which would really pull very
[32:39] neatly into that kind of information.
>> Right.
[32:43] » And it is going to change like we were
talking about earlier what the data
[32:46] center is going to be like 5 years from
now.
[32:48] What is the building going to be like in
the next 15 years? They're watching and
[32:52] they're going to be probably obsolete.
>> Well, they can be turned turned into a
[32:56] warehouse.
>> A year ago we were talking about all
[32:59] this stuff and who knows what we're
going to be talking about a year from
[33:01] now. Who knows what we're going to be
talking about a year from now.
[33:11] » Everyone
[33:14] » This is this is the end result. Exactly.
That's exactly right. Just like buying
[33:18] things from Amazon, we're dealing with
warehouses.
[33:21] So, that's that is a problem. We're all
using these components.
[33:25] And they have to go somewhere, but we
don't want them. But yet, we're still
[33:29] willing to to buy products from battery
companies.
[33:33] And we still want to be able to have our
phone in the same
[33:36] Yes, chat GPT with the answers.
>> I mean, I always thought
[33:40] I always thought that the chat GPT was
such nonsense. Who needs this stuff, you
[33:44] know? And then my wife started using it
to help design our new house. And it's
[33:50] like you know, it's amazing. You tell it
you want this, that, the other thing and
[33:54] it just draws out something that an
architect would have charged you
[33:59] thousands of dollars to do. And all of a
sudden it's there. And if you don't like
[34:03] it, just change what you don't like. You
just tell it.
[34:06] And that's the thing, you know, it it is
>> amazing.
[34:09] » We use it all the time on the farm to
calculate fertilizer and stuff.
[34:14] » Yeah.
>> It's so it's so much fun.
[34:27] » All right, any emotional close to the
ball?
[34:28] » So moved.
>> Seconded.
[34:30] All in favor.
>> I think we already had our discussion.
[34:36] » I was all the same.
[34:42] » So, um
the committee's going to write something
[34:46] up and then we'll just have to be a
minute
[34:48] uh not in consistent
>> Yeah, it'll come in front of us.
[34:52] » Okay.
>> Our discussion points.
[34:56] We're back.
Actually, they can they can take some
[35:02] » There's another
>> All right.
[35:09] » All right, let's do minutes.
July 27th, 2016.
[36:13] I'll make a motion to approve the
minutes for July 27th, 2016.
[36:18] » Second.
[36:21] » Further discussion?
All those in favor?
[36:24] » Aye.
>> Yes.
[36:27] Seconds? Abstain?
[36:38] We
are working
[36:41] That didn't go in there.
No comments?
[36:46] » I just have a question.
[36:51] Is
[36:55] » I'll be able to pick it up, so the
echoes are better than that.
[36:58] » Is an amendment to the master plan more
effective than writing an ordinance?
[37:05] minutes
>> That is fine. That's just a suggestion,
[37:08] but how can I ignore the master plan?
[37:13] » So, the ordinance then, if the vision
for the future doesn't match whatever is
[37:19] on the board, can be amended?
>> Correct.
[37:22] » Okay.
Thank you.
[37:25] » 20
That was the word the justification you
[37:28] were
[37:32] We had a discussion with
[37:48] Any other comments?
Anyone ready to close?
[37:51] » So moved.
>> Second.
[37:52] » All in favor.
Yes.
[37:56] » Yes.
>> The only thing else
[38:01] So, thank you for that. Here, it's good
to hear the planning board members share
[38:05] their thoughts. The public was straight
by our commission. Thank you for putting
[38:09] together the initial letter.
Good turnout of the public that shared
[38:13] as well.
And on Zoom. The other thing that we
[38:16] brought up were block changes.
Again, and then do we regulate those?
[38:22] That will be coming here for ordinance.
What we're going to create is what I'm
[38:25] calling a resolution of responsibility.
Well,
[38:30] a velocity cam. They're
They're just like any other camera
[38:33] essentially except their technology is
uh
[38:36] geared towards government use much more
highly, much more detailed. So, it
[38:39] tracks license plates.
Well, theoretically they track
[38:43] They do the facial recognition. Uh it
tracks your cell phone.
[38:47] Bluetooth on, it'll know if you have
added a bumper sticker throughout the
[38:50] years. So, you go through exit 12. Uh if
for some reason they wanted to track
[38:54] you, it it locates your vehicle uh
very accurately. Uh
[39:00] It's a show device. Yeah, so the
challenge is uh is definitely fourth
[39:04] amendment issues around them as well as
privacy and
[39:08] I kind of share I think a lot of people
want to battle actually for for privacy
[39:13] and and and well, you know, the
moral and private lifestyle. So, I did
[39:18] share back on past. We we don't have a
law enforcement uh
[39:21] built in with the with the state police.
There are no flight cameras in Bethlehem
[39:25] Township. There's two uh that actually
12 and one on corner 579 and 173 in
[39:32] Bloomsburg. Um but the least at least
the one that actually one of those is
[39:36] actually 12 in neighboring Bloomsburg
are are run by the
[39:39] under county rescue office.
We even if we created an ordinance to
[39:43] say that we don't want these cameras
here, we don't have jurisdiction. Uh and
[39:47] and so
uh really what we're just asking for
[39:50] with this resolution of responsibility
that we just sent to the county
[39:53] council's office and the legislator is
just asking about responsible use of the
[39:56] cameras cuz that's what what's
concerning. Um and also what's the
[40:00] actual status of of kind of all this
monitoring We can't ban them. Can't ban
[40:05] them cuz we don't have any jurisdiction.
Um so, that's what I wanted to They're
[40:09] all on private property. They are not on
173. They actually put them on Private
[40:13] private No, you say it also uh
This this is private business allowed to
[40:18] have. We can't we can't tell a private
business or a house that they can't have
[40:22] a
camera and the state police wanted to be
[40:24] able to have access to your camera if
you're you're you're using the camera.
[40:29] I'll say some some that can be useful.
Some more densely populated
[40:33] municipalities that that are trying to
monitor crime are actually when people
[40:37] come to the planning board part of their
site plan is they they the requirement
[40:40] is you have to put two of these cameras
up or whatever they are so the police
[40:43] have access to your parking lots and
monitor what you're what you're doing.
[40:47] So,
actually certain municipalities are very
[40:50] much in favor of them.
They help with car theft. They they help
[40:54] with you know, I I would imagine home
theft as well tracking vehicles. They
[40:59] help with uh
the silver alerts, the older folks that
[41:03] that they get lost and track cars pretty
easily. But it really is the the
[41:07] regulation who can use them, when you
can use them, how long information is
[41:09] saved.
I just want to like
[41:12] the the data storage came from the my
non-commissioned block camera during the
[41:17] meeting.
asking
[41:19] do we do we have these in West Bethel
Township? Who put them up? Was it
[41:22] government? We I share we have cameras
at the park. They're not in block
[41:25] cameras. We don't need that I do
technology.
[41:28] They're they're very similar to what you
have in your home if you have a
[41:34] We have cameras in the community center
mostly because
[41:37] unfortunately we're facing more and more
storms and we've been opening that I
[41:41] don't think I've ever seen that center
open as much as it has been for uh
[41:45] for for shelters and sheltering
purposes. And so we have three cameras
[41:49] in there just just monitor the space as
it's used for shelter. The same thing
[41:52] they're not facial recognition. They're
not they're just they record and right
[41:57] over the back of 30 days and it goes
away. Our block will store data for
[42:00] three years and
it's very detailed. So, um it's just
[42:04] those were the two
potential ordinance issues and then
[42:08] there's again no ordinance on blocks.
We're going to try to start some sort of
[42:11] movement on responsible use
installation of that technology.
[42:16] Uh that's an original ordinance and then
our engineer did share the the uh real
[42:20] rules
were not held in this uh some additions
[42:25] to our normal order that we'll need to
adopt by um which I find ridiculous. I
[42:29] love New Jersey. January 20th of 20
27.
[42:34] Um but you can't introduce an ordinance
and cross over a year and you can't
[42:37] introduce an ordinance and pass it on
January 20. So I'm not sure why they
[42:41] picked that date. So that's why I
request we get this has to be approved
[42:44] before the end of the year.
So those are
[42:48] major updates from the
>> And even the Flock
[42:51] regular video cameras are not Flock
cameras. The data that they pick up can
[42:56] be converted to Flock
>> Yeah, there is there's there's there's
[43:00] there's there's a lot to it. But I
wanted to address that.
[43:03] So the president knew it could be if you
weren't ignoring it and then we weren't
[43:09] you know,
proactively supporting it either. It's
[43:12] something that we don't necessarily need
in Bethlehem
[43:14] but you know, we state police and the
prosecutor's office I'm sure we're going
[43:18] to keep putting them on state and county
roads and uh
[43:22] there is there's that that is deep dot
dot com or something. It's it's the it's
[43:26] a advocacy group tracking the cameras.
So it's pretty interesting. You know
[43:30] that type of zip code wherever you are
in Bethlehem
[43:33] and search the area.
Um you know, I shared you know, I had
[43:37] gone all those shopping centers.
You know, Lowe's and everybody else
[43:40] there's at least two cameras in every
single parking lot.
[43:43] It's an old map. Two cameras in the
corners of the buildings and then the
[43:47] the deep dot shows you the kind of the
angles that they record as well.
[43:51] » But insurance companies are now asking
for
[43:54] any of those any of that information if
he was to claim that he had an accident
[43:58] like in an apartment lot or anything
like that. They're looking at this.
[44:01] » Yeah, of course.
>> And any
[44:04] » The truth of the matter is is that you
know, the crime rate in this country has
[44:08] never been lower than it is the last 10
years.
[44:12] And, you know, body cameras didn't do
that. You know,
[44:16] and now we're introducing all these
these 1984
[44:21] » That's your brother.
>> Big Brother type stuff. And it's like
[44:25] » Is he an alien?
>> Yeah.
[44:26] » Well, but it's like why do we need this
stuff when
[44:30] » We don't already They needed to control.
>> Yes.
[44:37] » Then it's house and safety and
protection.
[44:39] » Oh, right.
[44:45] » And then uh
>> Nothing else uh for now.
[44:49] » I'm going to stop reading there after
the third actually cuz I'm not actually
[44:52] reading.
>> I'm pretty sure we need that.
[44:54] » I'm not sure if
>> Don't get it twisted.
[44:55] » Don't get it twisted.
>> Back to 4:00.
[44:59] » We're having a party this Friday for all
ages. Movie fireworks and movie
[45:02] fireworks impress me.
>> Mhm.
[45:05] » We're going to do fireworks. The DNA is
>> Very explicit.
[45:09] » Yeah.
>> I've got the best view of the back porch
[45:13] and actually see the
>> Yeah, you can do that.
[45:16] » Yeah, that's our backyard. You can do
that.
[45:21] » Save me a seat for years.
>> Unless you're invited to fall over
[45:25] there.
[45:28] » Uh yeah, it's something to do with the
airport.
[45:32] » Uh so so
you can the subcommittee met. Uh we have
[45:36] a lot of questions.
>> Is it okay if I speak now?
[45:40] » Um
Um we have a lot of questions. This
[45:44] property is is entirely
within the 150-ft
[45:48] um
um
[45:50] » I think we need to talk about the
setbacks.
[45:52] » setback. And so
um we are concerned about um
[45:58] » the nation.
>> D Well, D B has a
[46:02] uh letter in the packet that says that
all these conditions do exist and then
[46:08] it needs
and that this would need a DEP permit.
[46:12] Um
and
[46:15] we did not think
that it would be possible to get a DEP
[46:19] permit under the conditions that this is
under at this point. So
[46:24] uh we do have some questions for Tom as
for them
[46:28] as to whether or not um
this is actually and there's any way
[46:34] that this can be done.
Um and to that end we kind of feel that
[46:38] it's a bit of a waste of time of our
time
[46:41] to even review this until we know that
they do have
[46:45] » It's a legal applicant find that
>> Right.
[46:50] » Yeah.
>> Is this question at Mark Arndt?
[46:53] » Yeah.
>> Okay. So that is our general
[46:58] view of this whole thing.
>> Yeah.
[47:01] Do we have to run that by the attorney
or what?
[47:04] » Oh yeah, good. So we're going to
schedule schedule. We have a
[47:08] hearing scheduled
>> The same one again for the 19th.
[47:11] » 26th.
>> 26th.
[47:13] » The hearing being the 26th.
>> That would be the 26th.
[47:18] » Yeah.
>> September 26th. It it It will show this
[47:21] this property did appear before us so we
can ask the attorney some clarification
[47:25] on this but because our process I agree
we don't want to waste your time but our
[47:29] our process is
if you if approval's granted it's
[47:33] granted.
Or you know we would get the final
[47:38] agency approvals as well.
We are a fresh staff so I I don't know
[47:42] if you have the ability to preempt it
because again this is this property came
[47:47] before us
and our attorney and this is one of the
[47:50] reasons we found our one of our previous
municipal zoning attorney Cara
[47:54] represented landscape burner who came
before I saw this property
[48:00] and did not go there because uh they
ended up with uh DP issues they couldn't
[48:06] resolve. I don't know if somebody's
going to die differently this time or
[48:09] there's some objections,
um but I I don't know if we have the
[48:12] right to uh
Ted, if you don't want to we can't hear
[48:16] it.
>> We've had numerous people come in here
[48:19] and then disappear.
>> Yeah.
[48:21] » For different things. One guy fixed four
clubs.
[48:25] Nobody else.
>> On that property?
[48:27] » Yeah.
>> Okay, so
[48:28] » They just disappeared and they found out
that they had to go through
[48:31] » the DPT section.
>> Yeah, I mean that may be the case. I
[48:35] just don't know if we I mean I mean they
they
[48:37] they have done quite a bit.
>> It seems they paid for it all and so
[48:41] let's let's let's wait for the hearing
to be done with the difference.
[48:48] » May I have their ward numbers or
anything?
[48:50] » Mr. Chairman.
>> All right.
[48:53] » From they had um they had a sub
committee meeting and they had
[48:56] questions. Would they be putting them
together and sending them to me so that
[48:59] I can put them in the file
or forwarding them over to the
[49:04] uh the engineer {slash} attorney so that
we have plenty of time for them to
[49:07] respond to the sub committee between now
and the time of the hearing?
[49:11] » All questions have to be addressed at
the proper point which is actually a
[49:16] hearing.
>> Okay.
[49:17] » So
>> So then I don't have any
[49:19] » The why they don't think they they
The reason why we do this is that uh
[49:25] they can keep the applicant when it just
comes in front of us the night of the
[49:28] hearing. We might not be seeing what
they had spent a lot of more time
[49:32] looking at. And so they have more
questions than just the general board
[49:36] members will have. And so then that
conversation can happen they can they
[49:40] can open they can testify to each of
these questions and you know do that.
[49:45] » There's a word.
>> Come back at a later time, but I think
[49:49] it's premature to have them to ask a
bunch of questions when it's the
[49:52] applicant doesn't
have the ability right now to answer
[49:55] them.
[49:58] All right.
Do you have anything else for me?
[50:01] Yeah.
>> Just that um I'm not going to be at the
[50:04] meeting uh September 14th.
>> Okay.
[50:09] We'll be trying to
>> Yeah.
[50:11] » So
uh we should we bring in uh City View?
[50:16] Is it filling in there?
Yeah, I'll probably
[50:19] » No, no, no, no.
>> Yeah, but I'm not trying to get the
[50:21] agenda at this point. Okay.
So you can have the
[50:24] minutes from the recording or
>> From the recording and from the video.
[50:27] Yeah, we can do that.
>> If there are any changes, let us know.
[50:31] » Yeah, I mean if something suddenly comes
onto the agenda,
[50:34] um
and the other thing is is that we um
[50:38] we have the open um
the the application of Castle Lee's that
[50:42] we're we're holding on that for now.
That application for now.
[50:47] » Okay.
>> Okay.
[50:51] » All right. Anything else?
No.
[50:55] Motion to adjourn?
>> I second.
[50:57] » All in favor?
>> Aye.
[51:01] » All right.