[0:00] Good evening and thank you to the city
commission um city of Boomfield Hills
[0:04] commission meeting city commission
meeting for August 11th 2026. The first
[0:10] item on the agenda is the call is the u
on the order is to pledge of allegiance.
[0:17] I pledge algiance to the flag of the
United States of America and to the
[0:22] republic for which it stands. One nation
under God, indivisible, with liberty and
[0:28] justice for all.
>> Okay. The second agenda item is Chief
[0:33] King will introduce the newest public
safety officer. Um, is that right? Is he
[0:38] here or no?
>> Uh, he was unable to make him and we
[0:41] just got apologize.
>> Okay, that's okay.
[0:44] » We'll do it next time.
Okay. All right. Um, okay. The next item
[0:49] on the agenda is the cassette agenda.
Does anybody have any questions,
[0:52] comments,
concerns?
[0:55] » Yes, I had a couple and, um, Sandra just
clarified them. Um,
[1:03] thrilled to hear that her clear gov app
or the whole new software is working
[1:07] wonderfully and going to come up to
speed because that was the 14,000
[1:11] um, she's using for the budget, which is
terrific. But you're happy with that?
[1:17] And I inquired about the Trobridgeidge
chip sealed expenses, 187 and another
[1:24] 37. And she just um clarified that
uh 69 of of the 77 that we approved the
[1:35] extra money for the Trobridge. So we're
we're on track for the uh what was
[1:41] budgeted. Correct, Sandra?
>> Yes.
[1:44] » Okay. But there are concerns about
future maintenance and there are
[1:48] concerns about how the third layer will
hold up to all the construction heavy
[1:56] traffic and I think it's something we
need to address.
[1:59] » Okay. So,
um
[2:02] » do you want to do
>> is that something we talk about now?
[2:07] » You know, do can't do we talk about that
now or no? Are we just allowed to
[2:11] » I agree with your point. And I think we
need to budget for or would that be
[2:14] another business?
>> Probably other business.
[2:18] » We could put on other business.
>> Are you asking me? Okay. Um, this is the
[2:23] consent agenda. So, I guess the
appropriate action would be to remove it
[2:27] from the consent agenda and put it maybe
inserted it as 3E
[2:34] » or or at the end of the meeting whenever
you want to put it in there.
[2:37] » Yeah, we'll do it at the end of the
meeting. Is that okay? Sure. Is that
[2:40] possible? Okay. Anything else?
>> No. Thank you.
[2:45] » Okay,
Commissioner Acriman.
[2:49] » Nothing else.
>> Nothing.
[2:53] » Um I had just a couple things. Um
the um Chief King.
[3:02] So um the Trowbridge Homeowners Chief
King, you met with the Trowbridge
[3:06] Homeowners Association to discuss
ongoing wildlife. Is that my favorite
[3:09] topic? Coyotes.
>> Uh, no, it was deer and grubs.
[3:16] » Okay. Interesting. Okay. Um, and then
I'm actually doing this in a public
[3:21] meeting and making this statement and um
I'd like you to help with this is um the
[3:30] comment that you have on here about the
solicitor who was on Lone Pine at 9:50
[3:35] at night.
>> Yes, ma'am. So, um
[3:40] I'm not sure if a lot of people know
this, but I think it should be is we do
[3:44] not allow solicitators solicitation
unless it's a religious affiliation. If
[3:50] I'm correct, you can tell me. And then
also or if they come in and get a
[3:53] permit. Is that correct?
>> Yes, sir.
[3:56] » Okay. So, um I just we've run into this.
Um there was an instant incident in my
[4:04] neighborhood where
two people were there on a Friday night
[4:09] at 6:30 going door todoor selling life
insurance.
[4:13] » Oh my god.
>> So
[4:14] » I had a door to door as well.
>> Did you?
[4:17] » Yes. So, um I I know it it's always good
if we get those and I would remind
[4:23] residents, please call the police, just
tell them to come and check on them to
[4:29] see if they do have a permit or not. Um
when they come to my door, I literally
[4:34] ask them if they have a permit and then
I tell them we don't have it. So, I to
[4:38] me going door to door at 9:50 at night
um is a little bit too late.
[4:45] Uh in that instance, he was cited for
soliciting without permit earlier in the
[4:52] day.
>> Uh told to leave. We arranged, we said
[4:56] by and arranged for him to uh be picked
up, transported
[5:01] » to a city where he actually had a so he
was familiar with.
[5:05] » Okay. So he was familiar with it.
>> Uh and then he came back again
[5:08] soliciting later that night and that's
when we made a custodial arrest.
[5:12] » Good to know. Okay. Thank you. Um
so Jamie the Chesterfield Real um
[5:21] Calbert.
>> Yes.
[5:23] » Mid August. Is that a couple weeks away?
>> Um they were paid in the base last week
[5:27] and we're doing very well.
>> Okay. So payment wise are we
[5:33] » we're under the grand amount.
>> We under the grand amount. All right. We
[5:36] did it. Okay. Thank you very much. All
right. Uh, if nobody has any other
[5:41] questions, can I have a motion to
approve the consent agenda?
[5:44] » Motion to approve.
>> Second.
[5:49] » All those in favor?
>> I
[5:52] um I'll do that other business later.
Okay. Uh, okay. Next item on the agenda.
[6:00] Recognition of citizens in the audience.
Individual comments are limited to three
[6:04] minutes per person and it's also not
something that is on the agenda. Do we
[6:08] have any citizens in the audience?
[6:13] Okay, with that next one, next agenda
item, the the commission will discuss
[6:17] current property maintenance standards.
[6:21] Mayor, if I may, uh, just to start the
the discussion is that, uh, at your
[6:27] direction and the commission's
direction, we took a a hard look at, uh,
[6:31] the question you raised in July, whether
our approach to property maintenance is
[6:34] serve serving this community well or
whether we should uh, go further. And
[6:40] uh, I did quite a lengthy study on this.
Uh, and I won't get into all that, but I
[6:46] can give you some uh, some high points
of it. We we what we essentially did is
[6:50] compared ourselves to Birmingham,
Bloomfield Township, West Bloomfield,
[6:54] and the five points. Uh we looked at the
everything from building exteriors,
[6:59] roofs, paint, porches, uh site
conditions, pools, vehicles, vacant
[7:03] homes, vegetation, and nearly every
measure we match or exceed our peers. Uh
[7:10] we have a 7 in vegetation standard uh
that's stricter than most of the
[7:14] communities. One was at six inches. Uh
but most allow 8 inches. Only Gross
[7:20] Point had hit the stricter at six. We
enforce the complete international
[7:23] property maintenance code. Our vacant
property ordinance is the strongest we
[7:27] found anywhere in the comparison. And uh
we enforce proactively uh with our one
[7:33] code enforcement officer. Uh and uh just
to kind of give you an idea what what
[7:38] the concern is in the city is that John
uh provided a report to me that he had
[7:43] 22 complaints of property maintenance in
2025 and only 15 so far uh in 2022. So
[7:52] in most probably 95% of the cases John's
been able to go through our uh process
[7:58] of just talking to folks and getting a
remedy. So we believe that process works
[8:03] pretty well.
Um
[8:07] tonight the there's uh right now there's
only three properties that have uh out
[8:12] of roughly 1,600 that have o o open
enforcement action is less than 210 of
[8:17] 1%. Our vac vacant home inventory is
small and most of it consists of homes
[8:21] that are maintained on the market and
undergoing redevelopment. One property
[8:25] that required extraordinary measures the
vacant home on Pinegate went through the
[8:30] courts and it showed the process has
teeth. the property is being brought
[8:34] into compliance and every dollar of that
work lands on the on the owner and if
[8:38] unpaid it goes on the tax role. Uh
Commissioner Fischer had brought up some
[8:44] good points about other communities, one
in particular, Lake Forest. Um Lake
[8:49] Forest is in Illinois and she was right
that Lake Forest does have a minimum
[8:53] landscape standard and we reviewed that
ordinance directly. It requires two
[8:57] shrubs at least 36 inches in height for
every 10 ft of foundation facing the
[9:01] front of the home or the side of the
home. That requirement applies only to
[9:05] new buildings. It's one piece of a full
design system that they have. And they
[9:09] have uh have a a review board that
examines the architecture and site plan
[9:14] of every new home. Uh and a special and
they have a they have a special charter
[9:19] in Illinois uh that allows this. um they
have more than 19,000 residents and
[9:27] dedicated plan review staff. Uh no, no
community in Michigan uh had that sort
[9:31] of approach to new homes um that we
could find any uh so and here's a
[9:38] practical reason. I think new homes in
Bloomfield Hills are state uh scale
[9:42] projects that routinely installs
landscaping worth hundreds of thousands
[9:46] of dollars and every one of them would
exceed the lake forest minimum many
[9:49] times over. standard like that would
regulate the properties least likely to
[9:53] need it I think uh and leave the ones
the uh leave the untouched properties
[9:58] that prompted this question. Um so
Mayor uh McCarthy in particular asked a
[10:07] specific question uh it's a fair
question is that if a current owner
[10:10] removes shrubs should they be required
to replace them? We have several homes,
[10:15] about three homes actually, maybe more,
and John can talk to that maybe in a few
[10:19] minutes, but that uh have removed
shrubbing in front of their house and it
[10:24] doesn't look great. Doesn't doesn't look
uh to the standard of Bloomfield Hills.
[10:28] Um they cut their lawn to our ordinance
and uh they trim bushes and sometimes
[10:35] they remove bushes and to the mayor's
point, it doesn't look good. uh just
[10:39] doesn't look as uh as well as good as
all the other homes in in the city and
[10:44] in particular all the homes that I just
talked about that are spending a lot of
[10:48] money uh making their homes beautiful in
the city. Uh we did find one gap in our
[10:53] ordinances uh that we could fill in and
maybe two gaps. One would be uh we can
[10:59] make sure that anything that's removed
from a current property like uh grass or
[11:05] or or or bushes that if it causes any
sort of erosion is issue or or dust or
[11:11] dirt, we can make sure that those that
property is covered. Um, another thing
[11:17] too is that I think we could take a look
at what we did with 36 Pinegate and
[11:22] maybe uh establish some ordinance
standards that might add to what we're
[11:30] doing and not just so what with with 32
Pinegate or 36 Pinegate, we had to go to
[11:36] uh we had to bring this case in front of
the 48th District Court. We got a court
[11:40] order in action uh where we're the
property is under a property management
[11:46] company and uh there's a landscape
company right now cleaning everything up
[11:51] and all those costs will eventually go
to the homeowner, but we're going to
[11:54] have to pay the bill and we're going to
charge the homeowner uh who is a company
[11:58] that does not live in the state, does
not live in this country or does that
[12:02] the the company's not in this country is
in China. But all we're doing is
[12:07] recovering those costs plus a 15%
administrative fee. So we might want to
[12:10] think about making a lot of improvements
to that component of the ordinance. But
[12:16] » Mr. Hendrickson, how would we change
that? Would we pass a an ordinance in
[12:20] which there's a clear fine and it turn
it becomes a lean? Is that what you'd
[12:25] like?
>> Yes. Yes. Uh I think there's some
[12:28] probably some good ideas with with some
discussion. Our city attorney I've never
[12:32] actually talked to to Mark about this
yet,
[12:34] » but I think You do it.
>> Yeah.
[12:37] » Clearly you want to lean the property.
>> Yes.
[12:41] » I think we could we should make it like
Birmingham. Birmingham has a minimum
[12:47] amount of money that they charge just to
walk onto the property. If if we can can
[12:52] we change the law so that we don't have
to go to court to enforce these things?
[12:56] Can we have penalties and interest?
>> There's there's a couple things you can
[13:00] do. Um what you're using now is a
municipal civil infraction
[13:05] and uh that's actually a fairly powerful
tool. Uh it's what we used on the
[13:11] Pinegate property. Um you're able to uh
notify a property owner that there's a
[13:19] violation, there's an issue. Um if they
don't take care of it, a ticket is a
[13:23] ticket is issued. Um and then it goes to
the the court and if we prevail in court
[13:30] we can enter a judgment in the district
court that gives equitable relief. In
[13:36] other words, we can um have a district
court order that they bring the property
[13:42] into compliance with our ordinance. If
they failed to do that within a
[13:47] reasonable amount of time, the judgment
would also provide that the city um if
[13:53] the judge approves the judgment, the
city would be able to enter the property
[13:57] and correct the violation and any costs
incurred in collecting that vi
[14:02] correcting that violation
um plus a you know a reasonable
[14:06] administrative cost uh would be
something that we could record a lean on
[14:11] the property in. Well, that's what we
have now, but it sounds like we need to
[14:15] have a minimum landscape requirement and
if they don't meet it, then the city has
[14:19] the right to go on the property instead
of having to go to the court to ask
[14:22] permission. Correct.
>> What I was addressing was the
[14:25] enforcement method, the the method
>> that we're using now. Got it.
[14:29] » Um, as far as um minimum landscaping
requirements,
[14:36] I'm not
I would have to do a lot more research
[14:40] on that. I'm not sure that's going to be
something that's going to apply in
[14:43] Michigan.
>> To Dave's point, it could be just to
[14:47] protect from erosion and from, you know,
um,
[14:51] » yes,
>> I think we can do that.
[14:52] » Flooding and problems like that.
>> We can do that right away, I believe.
[14:55] » Yeah, but that's that's not the minimum
like lake.
[15:00] » Well, if you say you have to, you know,
two bushes every
[15:04] » Yeah,
>> we we can enforce the erosion ordinance.
[15:08] » Yeah. Reading what? No problem doing
that. Well, here there's there's really
[15:11] limits on what we can do on on matters
of taste. I believe I think 36 Pinegate
[15:18] uh although we got there, it just took
way too long to be honest with you
[15:23] because we had
we're at the mercy of the court so to
[15:28] speak,
>> right? So, we need to take that
[15:30] » step out for you guys.
>> Yeah. Revise the law so that we don't
[15:35] have to go to court so that if they if a
property isn't maintained like this
[15:40] piece of property is owned by China,
someone in China.
[15:45] » If it's not being maintained,
>> we can go onto the property. We can
[15:50] » That's exactly what we're saying. We
can't do it.
[15:53] » I I don't believe so without some type
of court order. Yes.
[15:58] » I wonder if Birmingham has something
like But then Okay. So there's no way
[16:03] then to get more than just what the
judge orders because I mean they could
[16:10] use this as a cheap way to maintain
their landscaping from out of state and
[16:15] out of the country. I mean we're just
getting our cost back plus a fee. We all
[16:20] know what it costs
>> in Boonefield Hills to retain a
[16:24] landscaping company to take care of your
property. It's expensive. I think we I
[16:29] would think we would want to make it
something that's painful that they
[16:32] wouldn't, you know, something that
gradually increases like if we have to
[16:37] go out once it's this. If we have to go
out twice, it's this. Every time
[16:42] interest on our money, if we're only
collecting it on their tax bill, they're
[16:46] they're using our money for all that
period of time.
[16:50] » It just seems like we should have some
law that has more teeth in it. If uh if
[16:54] I may,
>> the ordinance that was enforced on that
[16:59] um you have a requirement for vacant
property that's owned by an entity more
[17:06] than I think it's 30 miles from the
location of the property. They are
[17:11] required to hire a property management
company to take care of the the
[17:16] landscaping.
That was the ordinance we cited because
[17:20] they did not have a property management
company. So when we went to court um we
[17:27] asked the judge to order them to comply
with our ordinance and when they refused
[17:33] we had a judgment entered u that allowed
the city to hire a property management
[17:39] company. Yes, the city gets build for
it, but we put that on the tax leans and
[17:46] so it's recovered the next year. There
is an administrative expense and I know
[17:52] that particular one was very time
consuming. Um,
[17:57] this is kind of a new procedure we were
doing in the 48th district court. I'm
[18:02] hoping it will um get smoother and and
quicker turnaround. I've had success
[18:08] with it in other communities. So, I'm
hoping we'll get there. Um, but, uh, you
[18:15] know, increasing the penalty would be
something that you could explore a
[18:20] municipal civil infraction. Um, there's
a lot more latitude with the amount of
[18:25] fine that can be imposed, particularly
with like a first, second, and third
[18:29] type of uh, of violation. So, yeah,
there's some things we could do to make
[18:37] it more painful, I think was the term.
Is it possible that once a judgment is
[18:43] um made and it's in favor of the the
city then um
[18:50] at that point the judge has spoken
that's it's acknowledged that there's a
[18:55] problem and then it that would trigger
um additional charges. we would update
[19:00] our ordinance to say that if a judgment
is
[19:03] if there's a judgment against the
property owner, um we would then invoke
[19:09] a a a greater penalty because I I
totally agree with Commissioner
[19:15] Buckley's uh comment that they're
probably just h happy to have somebody
[19:20] managing this for them. They're not
here. We're taking care of it for them
[19:23] at cost plus 15% which
>> I mean
[19:27] » that's nothing. we're doing all the work
for them and that that's just not
[19:30] painful enough.
>> Well, um
[19:33] » to the point of
>> to the point of
[19:37] doing something after the judgment is
entered, that's not something we can do.
[19:42] Um but like I said, we could increase
the penalty initially and make it more
[19:48] painful that way. Okay.
>> Uh we do have
[19:52] I've seen one ordinance in another uh
community that is assesses a fine on um
[20:00] I think it's a wetland violation, some
type of environmental uh restriction,
[20:04] and it it's like a $5,000 fine.
>> Um so, you know, that's something we
[20:10] could look into.
>> Okay. Yeah. This isn't supposed to be
[20:14] painful. reasonably related to the
interference with the police power
[20:19] safety,
>> right?
[20:20] » Not painful.
>> Compliance is
[20:22] » compliance with reasonable behavior.
Yeah, it's not painful. There's no
[20:26] retribution involved in this, but make
it as much as you can, will you, please?
[20:32] » What about how it relates to some of the
um buildings along Woodward, like the
[20:37] old Denny's?
>> I I think we've been very lenient for a
[20:42] very long time.
>> We'll work it out. Yes,
[20:45] » it will work out quickly.
>> Yes, I Yeah, I I I agree. Yeah, that
[20:50] one's a little bit there's, you know,
there's some nuances of that, but yes,
[20:54] absolutely.
>> That's been an embarrassment.
[21:00] » Um, I had a couple of I I'm the one who
brought this up and because it's a very
[21:07] sore spot.
>> Um,
[21:10] Dave and I differ on this, but that's
okay.
[21:14] So what our the short answer on this is
that we do not give um a CO um unless
[21:23] until a permanent long ground cover must
be established by seating or soding
[21:27] before a certificate of occupancy. And
um there are other communities that are
[21:32] the same way. I actually
and I have to say this um this wasn't
[21:37] followed on Falmouth. They moved in in
June and not one piece of landscaping
[21:43] was done. In fact, the yard was dirt,
the driveway wasn't done, and um you
[21:50] know, they were I actually had neighbors
calling me because the kids were
[21:54] swimming in a pool with no fence around
it.
[21:57] » That's incredible.
>> And so I called Dave on it. Dave went
[22:01] out there and now the our resident our
neighborhood gets to look at a or one of
[22:07] those orange plastic construction fences
on the side of the yard. Everybody walks
[22:12] by and we we get to look at it. They
don't get
[22:14] » Wait, don't you have to have a permit to
have a fence?
[22:17] » Yeah. So, if I if I may. Um,
>> so, uh, Foulmouth, I I I understand the
[22:24] frustration. Uh, you know, it is a nice
home in the backyard. the majority of
[22:29] it's all done. Um, and they, as far as
landscaping, they they did comply. Uh,
[22:35] matter of fact, they went above and
beyond in the uh approval with the
[22:38] planning commission. They were required
to put uh 23 Green Giant Arbories that
[22:44] are 11 12 feet tall. They put this the
the the homeowner put 42. I counted when
[22:50] I went there that are 15t tall. So, that
screening was I think compliant with
[22:55] » from the neighbors on the hill.
>> Yes.
[22:57] » Great. Thank you.
>> So, u that was complied with. I went in
[23:00] the backyard to look at the fence. Most
of the fence is done. Orange thing, I
[23:03] agree. Maybe we'll find a better
solution for the orange fence for a
[23:06] temporary thing. Or maybe that fence is
done. I don't know. But they're very
[23:09] close to finishing the pool fence, but
the majority of the pool fence was done
[23:13] when I was there. There was a small
section that wasn't done. Um just kind
[23:18] of, you know, in all fairness, uh homes
in this city can take two and a half,
[23:23] three years to build. They put this
house together with the stuff with with
[23:27] all the pool and everything in their
backyard within 18 months. So, they
[23:31] moved pretty fast on it. Um, the
temporary COO, I know what I wrote in
[23:36] there, but temporary, which is wrong.
Uh, temporary COS in our city at times
[23:42] we allow people to move in with with
some of the landscaping not done, but we
[23:47] take a bond. So, we took a $50,000 bond
from these folks um with all the
[23:52] requirements that have to be done. I
wish it was done faster. I know it's in
[23:56] the uh close uh to, you know, in in the
residential neighborhood that you live,
[24:01] but there are some things that are going
well there. Um and there are some things
[24:05] that could be going a little bit faster,
but
[24:08] » majority of projects done.
>> When you bonded, do you have a time
[24:11] limit for them to fulfill the
requirements?
[24:13] » So, we we gave them uh so the ordinance
says they can have a temporary CFO up to
[24:18] six months. We gave him 60 days which uh
expires the 14th of this month which
[24:24] expires in two or three days. I don't
know exactly where it's at. Scott is our
[24:29] building official. Do you know exactly
where it's at, Scott?
[24:32] » I'm going to go out there and see. But I
know
[24:40] I mean what are you going to do? Kick
them out?
[24:43] Well, I mean, yeah, we we try to
>> problem with letting them move in. If
[24:46] you don't want them lose their bond,
>> I would agree. Yeah. Letting them move
[24:50] in.
>> I can see why you do because Yeah.
[24:53] » people die to move in.
>> I just don't think you should let them
[24:55] fill the pool if there's no fence around
it.
[24:57] » Yeah. I don't know how that happened.
How did they fill a pool with no safety
[25:01] issue?
>> The dirt is one thing to look at, but
[25:03] this pool is an issue.
>> Absolutely. And and we've run across
[25:07] pools that the fence isn't done and and
then
[25:10] » you can ask them to drain the pool.
>> Yeah.
[25:13] » I mean, if it's a safety issue for real.
>> Yeah.
[25:15] » Or they have to put another kind of
fence around it until the real fence
[25:18] comes.
>> Well, I think they should probably have
[25:20] a a co- compliant fence. Whether it's
ordinance compliant, but at least code
[25:24] compliant um for protection. So, we'll
make sure that's done right.
[25:30] » But I think it's it's should be the the
fence for the pool should be done.
[25:35] out there.
>> Yeah, I went out there with with uh
[25:39] » it's going on the side where the orange
fence is.
[25:41] » No, that won't be there at all.
[25:46] » Okay. Um
Okay. The other thing I just want to
[25:50] take note of is um I realize that you
did the cities around us and I think
[25:55] that's great. Um however, I would say
that um well, our city is a little bit
[26:02] different. I think we're very unique and
um I think that so I looked up a couple
[26:07] of other or um cities. One of them I've
said before in this in these meetings is
[26:12] Indian Indian Wells, California. It's a
very prestigious community in the Palm
[26:16] Springs area. And um they actually go as
far as telling a homeowner whether it's
[26:24] new a new home or an existing home that
if you're going to landscape over 2500
[26:30] square feet, you are required to have a
drawing by a California licensed
[26:35] landscape architect and it is reviewed
by the design review committee. Um and
[26:41] that is for not in existing and
non-conforming areas are grandfathered.
[26:45] So, if you already own it and you're
there, that's fine. But if it's you're
[26:49] going to change your landscaping, it's
over 2500 square feet. And I liked this
[26:54] wording. They actually used the wording
in the or ordinance and they said all
[26:58] homeowners
um are responsible for maintaining the
[27:03] the city's luxury aesthetics
is what they said. Is that so? They're
[27:09] saying, "Hey, if you have a home here,
you need to have
[27:12] » That's subjective.
>> It's very subjective." It is. It is.
[27:16] » You can't legislate that.
>> We'll make Mark really wealthy on
[27:21] » They too Yeah, they they too have a
land,
[27:24] » you know,
>> they too have a landscaping rule of
[27:27] three plants per 100 square feet minimum
for residents landscaping. Um, I also
[27:32] looked at Palm Beach and I didn't get to
go that far into this one, but um, I did
[27:39] see that all landscaping material has to
be installed prior to certificate of
[27:43] occupancy in Palm Beach. So, if they
build a new house and it has to be and
[27:48] they also have one tree per,50
square feet, a maximum of 15 trees in
[27:54] Palm Beach. So, here's I just want to
bring this up. I I know there's this
[27:59] whole fine line and subjective and
everything, but something that just
[28:03] happened. So, the orange fencing is what
we look at. Um I had a um person on
[28:09] Martell send me this picture today and
I'll let you guys take a look at this
[28:15] and then also they have a temporary
fence over to the over in the side of
[28:19] their house. And you know, the problem
we have is the residents are complaining
[28:25] because they're redoing this house and
they want to put a they want to put a
[28:30] fence up, but this is look like this.
>> Is that netting in front of another
[28:34] fence?
>> Uhhuh.
[28:36] » Yeah.
>> Oh, okay.
[28:37] » And then they have a a a uh this
temporary fence on the other side and
[28:44] the homeowners are tired of looking at
it. It This is Martell's, you Is this
[28:49] the one we were just reviewing?
>> Yes. Oh, this is the one.
[28:52] » Yeah, this is the one. Um, it was
>> You were taking it all down though.
[28:56] » It was good, but we had The point is is
we had to come in front of a planning
[29:00] commission. We had to have a homeowners
complain, write letters, send pictures
[29:07] before a commissioner said, "Look, you
need to take it down and it needs to be
[29:12] down this week." Like, so what I'm
trying to say is
[29:17] we should be able to have something that
we put in these ordinances that
[29:22] residents who are paying taxes do not
have to put up with people who are just
[29:27] taking their time, who are putting up
temporary fencing, who are just, you
[29:33] know, they they're not considerate of
their neighbors. This one is even goes f
[29:39] further with it, but I feel like
you went under construction. You you did
[29:44] remodeling and you had to have a pods
thing in front for a while. I mean,
[29:48] everyone has their time frame where they
have to do something that is not making
[29:53] neighbors happy.
>> But I just think that um and I agree
[29:55] with that. Um
>> but I think that
[29:59] » John,
>> I'm trying to get you something that you
[30:02] can be a little bit more than just go
walking into a resident and saying, you
[30:07] know, slap their hand and give them a
$100 fine or whatever. True.
[30:11] » I think that's what the commission is
saying is it's got to be something that
[30:15] is really going to hurt or get them
motivated to be able to do something
[30:19] instead of just waiting.
>> Well, like you were saying, if something
[30:22] is blighted looking, you don't have any
teeth to ask them do anything except cut
[30:26] the lawn. Correct.
>> Yes.
[30:28] » Well, John, I
John, how often do we That is a horrible
[30:33] uh green fence is bad and I was on that
property uh last week and it wasn't
[30:38] there. So,
You know, is this a bad bad look for
[30:42] them at the planning commission meeting?
It really was. But let me ask you, John,
[30:46] do you run across fences that are are
not per ordinance? And what do you do
[30:51] about that?
>> Not often. There's a few that um like
[30:55] that one on Martell there. They said
they were there last week. It wasn't up.
[30:59] Um we've had a lot of cars parked in the
driveway. They're the contractor. So,
[31:02] it's not as though we go walking around
those sites every day. A lot of scenes
[31:06] from curbside. Had a lot of trucks
there. Didn't
[31:10] D again gave you a heads up on that
today went right out there. So an
[31:14] instance like that I did a knock on the
door obviously no home the contractors
[31:20] who were on site had nothing to do with
that. So now I'm in the process of
[31:24] getting a hold of the general contractor
see that
[31:29] one that was just today.
I guess my question to you is are you
[31:34] you feel you're able to if you're given
the complaint you're one person so
[31:38] there's no way you can see all these
things that happen in the city but
[31:41] you're one person most of the time
you're getting the complaints from me
[31:44] but when you get the complaint are you
able to go out there and remedy it and
[31:47] what percentage of the time do you feel
you're able to remedy it
[31:50] » definitely can remedy it 90% of the time
it's things are done within a week max
[31:56] usually seven days
>> okay is there anything that you see that
[32:01] you
that could help you in your job.
[32:04] » Um, like I said, 90% of people go with
the flow. Literally, um, guys, it's
[32:09] somewhat informal at times, too. It's
not even a You have two things. You have
[32:13] a notice of violation, which is formal
letter, unofficial letter. Um, it's got
[32:19] the city on it and everything. What I
normally do for property maintenance,
[32:25] it's informal. It's called a violation
notice. That is a handwritten notice
[32:30] explaining the violation, what you can
do to fix it, and I attach my business
[32:34] card to it. So, if you have any
questions, call me. Cell phone,
[32:37] everything. Call me anytime with that.
They I normally don't even get a call
[32:42] within three or four days. It's taken
care of. Not even a correspondence or
[32:47] even talking. That's if they're not
home. I try. There's a violation. I
[32:50] knock on every door. I'd rather do it
face to face and send a letter or phone
[32:54] call or something.
90% of the time I don't even talk to
[32:59] them here. So,
>> okay. But we're talking about it. So, it
[33:04] happens. And like you said, a lot of
times it's hard for you to see it. Um,
[33:07] but
>> So, we're talking about it. So, there
[33:11] seems like there needs to be some kind
of
[33:13] » change or resolve.
>> I think so. I I think uh what could
[33:17] change is what we really when when we
have the problems. So, it's it's great
[33:21] that John can solve 90 plus percent of
them, but when the real problems occur
[33:26] and and uh we have to go through that
court process, I think we got to find a
[33:30] better answer. I think uh Mark and I can
work on that and bring something back to
[33:34] you.
>> Okay,
[33:36] » great. Thank you.
>> Thank you.
[33:38] » Appreciate that. All right. Um next item
on the agenda, the commission will
[33:42] discuss the traffic control improvement
options at Hickory Grove and Lasser.
[33:48] » Thank you, mayor. Uh, last time I
brought this up to the the commission, I
[33:52] mean, there was a few questions that was
asked of me. So, I had a meeting um with
[33:58] uh with um Oakland County Road
Commission. And, you know, I I guess I'm
[34:04] sort of just kind of rehashing the uh
the information that they provided me,
[34:08] the study that they provided me. Um, but
I can just kind of go over the my
[34:13] executive summary. Uh, the traffic
signal at Loster and Hickory Grove is
[34:17] about 30 years old. and at the end of
its uh service life. Uh the road
[34:22] commission advised that uh this is the
last intersection in the county not
[34:26] updated with left turn lanes and or
modern signal technology. The ownership
[34:31] of the intersection we determined that
was one of the questions that the
[34:34] commission had. Who really owns this and
does the township have some
[34:38] responsibility? So the ownership of the
intersection is divided between the the
[34:43] city and uh Oakland County.
>> Our city and Oakland County.
[34:48] » Yes. our city,
>> not their city.
[34:49] » Yeah, not their city.
>> Um, and by the way, I did actually also
[34:53] talk to uh Supervisor Mike McCriedy
about this issue, discuss it with him.
[34:59] Uh, and um, you know, he I think he uh,
he's very supportive, but uh, um, it is
[35:07] our responsibility, you know, replacing.
Um so um so the so the the county
[35:15] essentially has the north and west
components of the intersection and we
[35:19] have the south and east sections. Um
that's how it it's kind of divided but
[35:25] replacing the signal is both our
responsibility. So this was uh this
[35:29] issue was brought up uh some time ago
and uh I asked uh the road commission to
[35:36] complete a formal alternatives analysis
to provide to the commission which they
[35:41] did in February of 2026 and in May of
2026.
[35:45] Um we provided that information to the
commission. Um the the uh road
[35:51] commission intends to address the signal
within five years. One of the questions
[35:55] I asked them is what what if the city
doesn't uh get involved sort of lead the
[35:59] signal as is and they believe they
should they're going to replace it one
[36:03] way or the other uh within five years
because they believe it's a safety issue
[36:07] just because it's old old equipment.
It's outdated. It doesn't really
[36:11] » act or respond like everything else.
>> You can't ignore this. Right.
[36:14] » Right.
So, um, now the the, uh, the county, uh,
[36:20] recommends,
um, a compact roundabout. Um, the city's
[36:26] estimated share was approximately
259,000.
[36:29] I might be wrong on that, but, that's
the that's what was in the the report,
[36:32] the original report. Um, and both mark
PES pedestrian crossings at the
[36:37] intersection,
uh, which is in the township. They lie
[36:41] outside our our corporate limits. So, I
know there's probably some residents
[36:45] here from the township and it's
important that they know that these
[36:48] locations are not within the city of
Bloomfield Hills and they're not the
[36:51] respons responsibility of the city of
Bloomfield. As a matter of fact, when I
[36:54] drove through there, we had previous
discussions about our police department
[36:58] and you know, folks crossing it kind of,
you know, made my heart skip because you
[37:03] know, we could have be making claims
that it's not within our jurisdiction.
[37:06] We cannot have our public safety
officers work outside of our city
[37:10] limits. there's a there's a uh it's a
liability issue and everything else. So,
[37:15] I think it's I wanted to make sure that
was clear here today. But essentially,
[37:21] the county's asked me, you know, several
times, what do you think? What do you
[37:24] think? Um I'm I'm certainly not trying
to pester the commission. I just um I
[37:30] think it's important that uh we work
collaboratively with the county. Um I do
[37:34] work collaboratively with them on a lot
of other issues and so I have a very
[37:38] good relationship. So, out of respect to
them and out of respect to uh not only
[37:43] our residents, but everybody drives
through there, including the township
[37:45] residents, I think it's just something I
wanted to bring back up for um you know,
[37:50] maybe some consideration. And so, I at
the end of my report,
[37:55] I just um I essentially
uh provided uh what I think you can too.
[38:03] So, let me see here.
>> And the report indicated that 80% of the
[38:08] has already been conducted by the county
on on the roundabout and I would hope
[38:15] that we wouldn't have to pay for that.
They did that before. So I mean I know
[38:20] there it said there would be some added
costs we don't know about but but 80% of
[38:24] the design is already done that um it
has much less impact on the neighbors.
[38:30] To me when we make a decision we should
look at who does this impact the most
[38:35] and it's the people that live right
around there. property might be
[38:39] impacted. And it said the um the
neighbor uh the the signalized
[38:46] intersection would require roadway
widening affecting a retaining wall
[38:52] affecting fencing, 375 ft of sidewalk,
seven driveway approaches and utilities
[38:58] and eight full weeks of closure. Whereas
the roundabout has none of that. it fits
[39:03] within the existing right the existing
property and um they said it eliminates
[39:10] the the left turn conflicts driving the
crash pattern and it's only six weeks of
[39:16] full closure and and then as you pointed
out we all had concerns about the safety
[39:22] of the pedestrians walk particularly the
little kids walking to school but it's
[39:26] not our jurisdiction now so that doesn't
really factor into our decision lawsuit
[39:33] and I just I could not go for a
roundabout unless you gave me assurance
[39:37] that the type same type of safety
protection was provided here that exists
[39:41] on at Middle Belt in Maple and at
Farmington and Maple with with
[39:46] Bernstein's lawsuit. Remember, he sued
him about handicap. You'll have no
[39:50] ability for handicapped people to cross
that street
[39:53] and I am really worried about this. The
only thing
[39:56] » I would May I add to that? Um, may I ask
so is this is the um
[40:03] the other the county willing to pay for
crosswalks that light up when someone
[40:09] pushes the button
>> and they're ra I know they're going to
[40:11] be raised but are they willing to stop
the traffic when a person is going by
[40:17] because
>> uh we had a whole room of people here
[40:20] and they weren't our city residents they
were the other city residents but there
[40:25] there's a huge number of people that
this affects and I think we have a moral
[40:30] responsibility for these children's
safety and the only way I would approve
[40:35] and I'm with Allen is a roundabout and I
love roundabouts driving but I don't
[40:40] love and don't understand I would I
would like to I would only approve a
[40:44] roundabout if under the condition that
the crosswalks were raised and lit and
[40:51] the traffic had to stop when a person
was pushed the button and they were
[40:56] going across I don't mind if the button
only
[40:58] » and I would only approve it if there is
a stop sign on Loser between Hickory
[41:04] Grove and Long Lake.
>> So, I can comment on uh some of the
[41:07] safety features that they're talking
about with the roundabout and you hit
[41:11] you you uh touched on one is the raised
pavement and that really supposedly
[41:17] really slows the cars down. They also
talked about, I was looking for the
[41:20] acronym, but it's essentially a a light
system where you walk up to the uh where
[41:25] you would cross the roundabout area,
which is set off from the roundabout.
[41:29] You would push a button and would be
amber lights that light. It wouldn't be
[41:33] red lights. So, you know, it just it's
signaling drivers from a distance that
[41:38] someone's going to cross.
>> That's not sufficient. A yellow light.
[41:41] » What do we have? What do they
>> That's not sufficient.
[41:43] » What do we have at Farmington Maple?
traffic.
[41:45] » Uh I think it's uh uh
>> signals.
[41:48] » What's that?
>> They're called hawk signals where you
[41:50] walk up to them and they're flashing
pedestrians which in theory once they're
[41:54] lit they're as good as a red light if
you
[41:57] » Yeah, that's what we need.
>> But but that's what he's talking about.
[42:00] They're amber flashing big lights and
there's a sign that lights up.
[42:03] Pedestrian cross. It's
>> not It's not the Hawk though.
[42:06] » It's not the Hawk.
>> I think we need I saw it in Atlanta
[42:09] where you push it and it's I They were
red in Atlanta. I don't know. I mean, a
[42:13] yellow light to a car means slow down.
>> Pedestrian flashing is the same on
[42:19] traffic stop, same as a traffic control
device, it's the same as a red light.
[42:22] You have to same as a yellow flashlight
for fire trucks, guys. Like, if you run
[42:27] that, it's equivalent to running a red
light. Plus, we might get
[42:31] » what one thing I'd like to just comment
on in regards to the safety. Um, I think
[42:36] we need to consider also that with a
roundabout, the traffic approaching, all
[42:42] traffic has to slow down. So, the cars
coming to the roundabout are going to be
[42:48] going slower at all times than cars that
are just passing through.
[42:52] » They can still hit a child and hurt a
child going 25. What I'm saying though
[42:56] is
>> going
[42:57] » when you've got the green light on a
normal intersection that's not a
[43:00] roundabout,
>> you can have cars flying through there
[43:03] at 40 miles an hour and somebody's
trying to cross
[43:06] » and that's where the danger is. With a
roundabout, all cars have to stop.
[43:11] » Stop light, people have to stop.
>> I agree that there should be some kind
[43:14] of a light indicating a crossing. The
other factor that we should consider is
[43:19] that when crossing a normal
intersection, you have to be looking
[43:23] left, you have to be looking right. You
have to make sure that everything's
[43:26] clear from both sides. With a
roundabout, you only have to look one
[43:29] way. The traffic is only coming from one
direction. So, it's easier, safer to
[43:36] cross on a roundabout than it is in my
mind than a normal intersection.
[43:40] » It It matters what roundabout you got.
If you're talking about
[43:44] if you're talking about it's not even
true at Maple and Lasser. I mean I I did
[43:49] the condemnations when they did the
acquisition of the corners and then I
[43:54] think about Greenfield at 12 and 13 and
a half mile 12 and a half mile. There's
[44:00] one on Greenfield the small roundabout
which is something akin to what we're
[44:03] going to have. there was no real
acquisitions
[44:07] and you know it's sort of fun to run
over the curb a little bit sometimes.
[44:12] I'm not supposed to admit that. I'm
really worried.
[44:14] » I think it's an important thing to
consider and to understand that every
[44:18] single car that goes through that
roundabout is going to be at a slow
[44:23] speed.
>> That is not the case with a normal
[44:25] intersection.
>> Slower speed. At this roundabout, if you
[44:29] drive down Greenfield, you're going at a
slower speed, not slow speed. I bet you
[44:33] if it's it's 35 miles long.
>> This is a compact roundabout. You can't
[44:37] go through it at speeds probably greater
than what 20 miles an hour 15 something
[44:43] like that if that
>> 10 to 12 or something.
[44:46] » So it it's going to slow the cars down
and not not only that it's going to slow
[44:50] down every single car that comes to the
intersection.
[44:55] » It doesn't eliminate the chance of them
hitting
[44:57] » well seeing a child completely. But
>> seeing a child, that's the problem.
[45:02] » I think it it may seem counterintuitive,
but I think that after reading this in
[45:09] detail and really understanding how it
works, I'm in full support of a
[45:12] roundabout. As long as we have indicator
lights that that indicate that
[45:17] somebody's trying to cross because
traffic's already going to be going
[45:20] slowly at that point and you're just
saying, "Hey, I need to cross." They'll
[45:24] stop. You can cross.
>> We need to indicate. We need to verify
[45:28] what kind of indicator lights if we
>> are we paying for these even though
[45:33] because the crossing is on the township
side
[45:36] of the
>> well it
[45:39] I mean I don't I I don't know how
>> it sounds like they're splitting it in
[45:42] half and that their half has all the
cross signals
[45:46] » so they should be paying for those.
>> It's certainly something we I can
[45:49] address. Uh and that's it's a fair
point. Um, I I can say that the lights
[45:56] the way they explained it to me that
they're they're really the way the the
[45:59] roundabout's going to be set up because
the ray race pavement the sight distance
[46:04] for those lights is going to even be
better than what's currently there. So,
[46:09] » what lights are you referring to,
please? So, um, the amber lights that
[46:13] you push up, so if someone were to
cross, let's say, uh, they're on they're
[46:17] on Hickory Grove and they want to cross
on the north side of Hickory Grove, you
[46:21] know, either way, um, across Lasser,
there would be a a a button on each
[46:26] side. You you press a button and they
would start flashing the person to to
[46:31] Commissioner Baxter's point, if you're
walking westbound, you would look to
[46:34] your right to see if any cars are
coming. If you're walking eastbound,
[46:37] you'd look to your left, look northbound
to see if any cars are coming, but you'd
[46:40] only be looking for the one car coming.
And if it's wide open,
[46:44] » if you're old enough to be a driver and
know that that's flow traffic. I mean, a
[46:48] little kid may not.
>> Well, I I guess what I'm saying is that
[46:52] the the lights uh should notify a
driver, let's say, that's driving
[46:57] southbound on Lasser quite a distance
away. Uh and then the person crossing
[47:03] can make a determination if they feel
it's safe or not.
[47:06] But I I'm not this is not uh my
proposal. I'm just bringing the options
[47:11] and uh I will you know
>> can we ask them to specify what kind of
[47:18] cross signal they would put in and
>> yeah it is the am the ambient lights for
[47:23] it and we we don't have to pay for it.
That's a fair point. I I think and I
[47:27] think that probably could be could be
taken care of certainly that we wouldn't
[47:31] have to pay for the for the lights for
the crossing of the lights there. That
[47:36] that's a fair point. I can certainly
talk to him about that. I'm trying to
[47:39] find the the acronym of what it
>> RF RFPs.
[47:42] » Yes. So, what does that stand for?
>> Good type. They're the but they are the
[47:47] push button signalized white lights for
pedestrian crossings just like
[47:52] » but they don't they're not red and so
they're not so that's the difference
[47:56] that that the red ones I think were
>> yeah but I mean it's still illegal it's
[48:01] still illegal to cross one of those
whether pedestrian crosswalk so they act
[48:05] as an enforcement agent whether they're
yellow or red was my point before
[48:10] » I beg to differ
>> but I mean yeah
[48:14] » those are just less than a hawk signal
hawk signal stop all traffic in all
[48:18] directions.
>> And I think the reason why they don't
[48:21] want that hawk signal to stop in all
directions because you're defeating the
[48:24] purpose of the actual roundabout. And
that's the
[48:29] » logic doing it like twice a mornings and
nights at school, right? I mean, is that
[48:36] right? You know, kids don't
>> 8:00 and
[48:39] » Yeah. I like
>> that's when all the calls are.
[48:43] » Yeah. I would go that's real. Uh, I
think you'd want to have an officer out
[48:47] there from that jurisdiction doing the
crossing in my opinion.
[48:51] » That would be the township.
>> Yeah. I don't know if the chief has any
[48:54] comment on that.
>> I know that Pville Township is
[48:57] responsible for staffing those two
problems and they doing everything they
[49:02] can to do that and they are facing
significant hurdles to do that.
[49:12] We like to help the problem as uh from a
liability standpoint. I wouldn't want
[49:16] those officers out there.
>> Yeah.
[49:18] » And I I think you can you know it's like
you can't always have an officer out
[49:24] there. So we need the proper crosswalk
in place. You just can't
[49:30] » that's the only way I would ever approve
a a roundabout.
[49:33] » The solution for that would be those
Amber signals for the roundabout
[49:37] component of it. There are
most expensive one probably has a signal
[49:42] you can push the button and
cross but it essentially would only be
[49:47] for
north side and the west side
[49:52] but
>> and the other problem with the
[49:53] roundabout is the flow of traffic would
be non-stop on Lawer and everybody all
[50:00] of us coming out of our subdivisions we
can't get out now. So if you if you add
[50:04] the roundabout,
[50:07] » that's why we that's why
Commissioner Fischer is asking for the
[50:12] stop sign.
>> We'd like them the stop signs that were
[50:16] were removed to be put back.
>> I think there have been a lot more
[50:19] accidents coming out of our sub than you
have records of.
[50:25] There was, you know, when I first moved
here 20 years ago, there was a stop sign
[50:31] like for the first
12, 14 years at least
[50:37] » when they closed the high school. That's
when they stop.
[50:39] » They took them out when they they were
doing the construction on the high
[50:42] school.
>> Is that when they took them out?
[50:44] » Or as
>> they should have put them back. I mean,
[50:46] » I asked Dave about remember when they
did the high school and they put a light
[50:51] up there. remember there was a light
>> there at the high school and Dave said
[50:56] he doesn't remember or doesn't know who
put it. Somebody put a light up there.
[50:59] » I don't know who put it there but I do
know that the high school and the middle
[51:03] school the traffic flow I think is
different the whole the setup. So that
[51:06] could be one component of it but
>> a lot less people coming out of the high
[51:10] school driving. There's there you know
they got more buses coming in. Yes.
[51:15] » Just just just another thing to consider
about adding a stop sign. I mean, if you
[51:19] think about what we're trying to do,
we're trying to create a delay so that
[51:23] people can get out of their driveways.
And what the roundabout does is
[51:29] essentially that because the time that
it takes to get from
[51:34] where you enter the roundabout to where
you exit the roundabout, you're creating
[51:38] a delay. And in fact, that delay is
probably longer than what is going to be
[51:43] in reality a rolling stop at those stop
signs.
[51:48] So, I don't know that it's
>> it's a role. I mean, you can't say that
[51:52] people stop at the roundabout. They
don't.
[51:55] » They don't stop at the roundabout, but
they they they do stop at the
[51:57] roundabout, but they don't stop at the
stop.
[51:59] » Time that it takes to get through a
roundabout, which is creating the the
[52:03] delay. It takes time to go through.
>> It slows people down, but it doesn't
[52:07] create that. It doesn't change the gap.
The guy in front of you is slowing down.
[52:10] You're slowing down, but your your cars
are consecutively flowing through there.
[52:16] I don't think the roundabout solves I it
doesn't solve the traffic problem on
[52:21] Lasser in front of the middle school.
>> I would agree. It doesn't I mean you're
[52:28] still going to have um and I you can say
it's different between high school and
[52:35] middle school but I happen to know the
PTO president of that middle school and
[52:41] she's like every parent drives because
they all have extracurricular activities
[52:47] after school or things like that and
they don't and the bus services now are
[52:53] longer routes than what they were
before. So, they have to get home early,
[52:58] you know, earlier or whatever. So, you
have a lot of parents. I mean, she was
[53:02] the first one that admitted to me. She
said, "Yeah." She goes, "It's it's awful
[53:07] in that school picking up your child."
And she said, "I cut through the parking
[53:11] lot. I'm not supposed to, but that's
what we do."
[53:13] » Yeah. Well, what the I think that the
exit at the north end is from from my
[53:20] experience yesterday, the exit to the
north end is not attached directly to
[53:24] the parking lot.
>> Correct. Yes, it is. You're right.
[53:27] » Because I went my son took the first
tour yesterday. We went in the circle
[53:30] came out. It doesn't
>> And uh those people coming out in the
[53:34] morning at 8:00. That line looks like
it's 25, 30 yards deep sometimes and
[53:40] it's so stressful and I just stop and
let 30 people come out when there's a
[53:44] second there because it's like they
can't get out otherwise. No,
[53:48] » but the roundabout, our problems with
the roundabout is just beginning because
[53:51] when they do the work on Woodward,
>> the weight is going to be down to lot to
[53:56] to Long Lake Road.
>> It is. It's going it's inevitable
[54:00] because it's almost approaching Hickory
Grove now going out on the onto Square
[54:06] Lake Road.
>> That's true.
[54:07] » And the way you got to do this, you go
down Hickory to Woodward than to go
[54:10] north now. That won't be available
anymore,
[54:13] » right?
>> You know, it's it's going to be a long
[54:15] couple years no matter what you do.
>> What are they thinking of doing this if
[54:19] they do
>> not till after they fix Woodward?
[54:21] Correct.
>> Yeah. They they they wouldn't even start
[54:24] it till 2029.
>> Okay. That would be something that that
[54:28] So, this isn't something you have to
make a decision about tonight.
[54:30] Certainly, and I can I can always ask
more questions. As a matter of fact, I
[54:34] could ask them to come back,
>> talk to you more if you like.
[54:37] » Can you um verify whether or not they
will pay for the crosswalks themselves
[54:42] and and what kind of crosswalk they
would pay for and to show us,
[54:47] » you know, video pictures?
>> Do that.
[54:52] » Yeah. I you know and
>> it might be helpful.
[54:56] » In the meantime, can we put the stop
signs back?
[54:59] » I I I I will uh you know I don't know.
>> I don't know why we're getting so much
[55:04] resistance when there are people in the
commission that would like them. People
[55:08] in this in the room that would like them
that live residents want them.
[55:12] » All those parents would
>> all the parents of the school want them.
[55:15] I I what what is
>> I apologize for any uh for any
[55:18] resistance at all. I just I I look to
our experts about this and I I do know
[55:24] from being in long time ago being in law
enforcement that you have to have
[55:28] traffic control orders for these things.
You have to have an approval for that.
[55:32] So if you don't have a if you don't have
a traffic control order and I don't know
[55:36] uh
>> it's not legally enforceable.
[55:38] » It's not legally enforceable and it
could be a liability issue.
[55:41] » Well, how were these stop signs in place
before? They were legally enforceable at
[55:45] one point. Why why was that enforcement
taken away? they were in place before.
[55:49] » Well, I do know that uh when I came here
as a as a public safety director in
[55:53] 2013, the whole majority of the city did
not have TCOs and they made that change.
[55:59] » Well, do we have to I mean then let's
get the process rolling and and ask for
[56:04] one and say we would like one
>> chief.
[56:08] We did that. I I did the study. I went
worked with Oakland County and then just
[56:12] to be uh very transparent, clear not to
just use my recommendation as law
[56:18] enforcement official. We asked for an
external study from
[56:22] » I remember they came and they said, "Oh,
it's gonna
[56:24] » it didn't fit where it didn't fit under
Michigan law to require
[56:30] a stop sign." If we when those stop
signs were there at some point, um the
[56:36] officers that worked here laughed and
joked about it because they were not
[56:42] legal stop signs. When we went to court,
the stop signs that that were when they
[56:47] would write a stop stop sign violation
and they went to court, it got dismissed
[56:51] if someone knew the law to push it
because they were not valid at the time.
[56:57] » And so that started,
>> well, what can we do to get some stop
[57:00] signs and make them valid? What can we
do? What is the best effort? What can we
[57:04] do to change that?
>> I'll I'll take a step backwards. I I'll
[57:08] let them be invalid. What do we do to
get a stop sign even if they're not
[57:11] valid?
>> That's what I'm asking.
[57:12] » Yeah, they were invalid for 12 15 years.
You know,
[57:16] » I mean, it worked before that.
>> Isn't there a ruling if it's in place
[57:19] for so long like a path like
>> eminent domain or not eminent domain,
[57:23] what's that called?
>> I remember it non-conforming.
[57:27] » And I also remember having our traffic
people do all the CCOs's across the
[57:31] entire community with uh Jeff Rumbley
and other people because we had none.
[57:35] The issue starts to become you put one
in, you know, it's uninforceable. So,
[57:40] are you going to write are you going to
write tickets for it? What are you going
[57:43] to do about it? roll it or do anything
bad. What happens if you do pull someone
[57:47] over and they then it's a then other
charges you pull them over illegally and
[57:52] now you have these other charges and
other things for what I guess I'm I'm
[57:59] concerned from a track from an
engineering standpoint with traffic
[58:02] engineers
is that is that the right solution what
[58:07] are we trying to solve for the right
solution is this the right solution I
[58:11] think it's a slippery slope and I have
communities that go around stop signs
[58:15] and we pull them all out because they
don't get that.
[58:18] » What we're trying to
>> What we're trying to solve for here is
[58:22] the traffic on Lassa Road has gotten
extremely I mean it was bad before. It's
[58:28] got it's extremely heavy traffic not
allowing residents and also the school
[58:35] people to get out. There's no stopping
loss of road between
[58:40] » a very long fun road to drive and speed
on that but a lot of people So,
[58:46] » so you want the honest answer is center
left turn lanes and a big and I mean do
[58:51] do a road project to solve that issue
with left hand turns and people coming
[58:55] out do the do a road job
>> do a mini do a mini roundabout there by
[59:00] the school and it would help a lot.
>> No, but the issue the issue is you can't
[59:03] turn if you can't turn left or you're
stacked up and people turning left. This
[59:06] what I last coming southbound want to
turn left and this you can't. So you
[59:10] stack traffic up. So put in a left turn
lane so someone turn left. If someone
[59:14] wants to turn left in the school and get
them out of traffic that then also that
[59:18] also produces gaps. But now you're
talking about going down that road and
[59:21] making a three-lane road by every tree
that's in that right way. I mean that if
[59:27] if the solution is safety solution is
turned in and out of the subdivision,
[59:30] it's not it's a road change, not a stop
sign. In my this is my be back up with
[59:36] » we just all lived with the stop sign and
it wasn't bad when the stop signs were
[59:39] there because the stop signs stopped
>> the traffic flow
[59:43] » one minute one half of you know
>> why don't it worked so it just a plus b
[59:50] I don't know
>> what about a stop there was a stop light
[59:53] there before what what someone do with
it
[59:56] » again what happened before and the
warrants now are not the same thing we
[1:00:00] do not have the traffic warrants or the
volumes of the turns do that. I know we
[1:00:04] feel that way. I know we feel that way
and believe me, I understand that and a
[1:00:07] young kid, teenager as well.
But when people were talking about
[1:00:11] what's the for me to help give him a
TCO, you're kind of there's not a lot
[1:00:16] you could do. I'm sorry,
>> but if if you knew that we we wouldn't
[1:00:21] approve a roundabout unless there was a
stop sign.
[1:00:25] I I think the two are mutually exclusive
and I think
[1:00:28] » they're not at all because if you have a
stop light at Hickory Grove and Lawer
[1:00:33] instead of a roundabout, then people
have to stop and the flow of traffic
[1:00:36] stops.
>> At least it's stopped in one direction.
[1:00:39] » Well, remember remember the roundabout,
you're assuming that everybody in the
[1:00:42] roundabout goes southbound. Not
everybody goes southbound. A lot of
[1:00:45] people go straight. A lot of people go
north and a lot people turn in different
[1:00:48] directions on that. So what you're
really doing is you're stopping the
[1:00:51] people from going straight through, but
you're not left turns on southbound
[1:00:56] either. So, I wouldn't be
I wouldn't be so certain that the
[1:01:02] roundabout isn't going to provide a
similar amount of gaps.
[1:01:04] » Can I can I ask during rush hour,
does the eastbound traffic on Hickory
[1:01:10] Grove
exceed the westbound traffic
[1:01:14] dramatically or is it because of the
left turn?
[1:01:16] » I don't know.
>> Okay. What I'm saying is the traffic
[1:01:19] coming this way,
it's backed up 40, 50 cars because
[1:01:25] people like me are taking I go to
Hickory left to come down Loster and I
[1:01:30] gave up on on going down going north on
Loster. Is there is there is there more
[1:01:35] traffic really going northbound from the
west or is it because they can't make a
[1:01:42] left turn that that it backs up so much?
>> We can get we can get the number. I
[1:01:46] don't remember.
[1:01:52] » I I think we're going to The reality is
you're probably going to get stuck in
[1:01:55] the roundabout,
but it's not going to help
[1:02:00] get the people on the east side of
Lasser north of Hickory to school
[1:02:06] without help.
>> Yes, sir.
[1:02:11] » I I I think we're talking about a couple
different things. Um One of the major
[1:02:17] concerns that the parents have that the
community members have presented to me
[1:02:21] was it wasn't straight through traffic.
It's turning traffic that is endangering
[1:02:26] the kids. It's not people going 40 miles
an hour. It's people that are going
[1:02:31] westbound on Deree Grove turning right
to as the kids are crossing. It's not
[1:02:37] speeding through traffic. It's not
through traffic. It's turning traffic.
[1:02:41] It's turning traffic that that's going
right or possibly even If you're coming
[1:02:46] through on a roundabout, don't you come
through and then you turn right.
[1:02:49] » I'm sorry.
>> If you're coming west on Hickory Grove
[1:02:52] and you're going north, you turn right.
If you're coming west and you want to go
[1:02:57] » go north,
>> you turn left. So, and there's also
[1:03:00] there's also
>> No, you take the first right.
[1:03:05] » So, round you go around it.
>> You just said people coming west that
[1:03:08] want to go north are turning right and
that's what everyone's concerned about.
[1:03:12] But in a roundabout, wouldn't you still
be doing that? I'm talking about what it
[1:03:15] is right now. I'm not talking about the
roundabout. I'm talking about the
[1:03:18] dangers that have been presented to us
that we've gone to.
[1:03:22] » I'm just suggesting that that same
danger would exist with a roundabout.
[1:03:26] » And I think we as parents agree a lot
when
[1:03:35] they're supposed to stop and wait and
let pedestrians cross, but they don't.
[1:03:42] They see a gap and they try to shoot.
>> Absolutely.
[1:03:45] » So they don't see
>> they don't they aren't even looking at
[1:03:47] what's coming across the street.
>> What we have what we have now
[1:03:53] » without without a clear left turn light
and a walk sign going across going
[1:03:58] across lasser is violently dangerous
>> and it's monkey see monkey do. If the
[1:04:04] person behind them sees one car, then
the next one just keeps going
[1:04:10] where the kids can't cross because they
see those cars just shooting through.
[1:04:14] So, it's not
>> so sorry.
[1:04:18] » So, I
>> What do you What would you suggest? You
[1:04:21] don't live in the city. What do you
suggest we do?
[1:04:23] » I I would prefer a signal with like a
also like a no turn on red
[1:04:30] » because that gives a definite stop.
pedestrians to cross with the
[1:04:35] roundabout. Although it would be slower
and if they have a button to press and
[1:04:41] there's lights, that still doesn't mean
that traffic is going to stop because
[1:04:44] they already don't stop when they're
supposed to. So, if it's just like a
[1:04:49] caution, hey, they're still not going to
stop. I don't see them stopping for the
[1:04:55] kids. And then also on the roundabout,
the road commission pointed out that it
[1:05:02] would be two points to cross one side of
the street because there will be um like
[1:05:10] medians. So it'll be two times on one
side that the kids have to cross and
[1:05:15] then two more times that they have to
cross to go south.
[1:05:20] So that's another point
with the light going
[1:05:27] around but then traffic coming the other
way. So it's going to be
[1:05:42] We ask for other
>> We don't have to make the decision
[1:05:44] today, do we?
>> Yeah, we don't.
[1:05:45] » No, I mean, would you I I I could offer
the county to come back and I can
[1:05:51] certainly find out about your question
about who would pay for those those
[1:05:55] lights. Um I guess there is some
information if you there's the
[1:06:01] replace the basic lights. Probably
wouldn't have the things that the the
[1:06:05] folks here recommend. So, you'd probably
have to have a full-blown light system
[1:06:10] if you're if you're going to go to the
lights. It would encroach into the
[1:06:14] property around. And then there's the
other probably really only two options
[1:06:18] really is that the the best light system
or um the roundabout. But I maybe we can
[1:06:26] bring them back. We can show you some
pictures and video or something.
[1:06:29] » Yeah, maybe we do. Chief
You said you went in and talked to the
[1:06:34] principal at the school
>> and they were less than friendly or
[1:06:39] » I wouldn't say that they just they were
happy with what they had there.
[1:06:45] » Huh.
>> They were happy with what they had.
[1:06:47] » The parents aren't. Have you ISIS
we received similar feedback from
[1:06:56] » as far as
[1:06:59] the the intersections two different
things. We addressed
[1:07:05] the traffic flow that they have
established with their uh construction
[1:07:10] company the way they have their um
traffic flow pattern set up for the
[1:07:15] school drop off and everything. They are
happy with what they have now with the
[1:07:19] buses and the parent drop off. They
don't want any more stop signs or
[1:07:23] anything on
>> I can't I'll tell you one thing. They
[1:07:25] got it easy because their buses go off
on the other side and they they exit
[1:07:31] where there's nobody giving them a
problem and they go south when they come
[1:07:34] out of the school.
>> All the buses get to be where the
[1:07:37] athletic field is that lower,
>> right? It's easy.
[1:07:40] » It's past where all the subdivisions
come out. It's past where the school
[1:07:45] parents come out. They have their own
little private entrance exit
[1:07:49] practically. Right.
>> Absolutely. It's
[1:07:51] » so that's why the school
>> so is happy with the situation is
[1:07:55] everything we can do.
>> Um we are we
[1:08:00] we are doing more than
what a typical police department would
[1:08:07] do or public safety. We do appreciate
all your communication
[1:08:10] » and and we are going and trying to do
things through the end of last school
[1:08:14] year um when we're stretched. We're all
stretched in but we're do we're doing
[1:08:19] it. Um we're also putting up the speed
school school speed limit signs that
[1:08:25] that
>> Yeah. When are those going up?
[1:08:27] » They're going to be in uh by the end of
the month. Um they're waiting on some uh
[1:08:33] specific coloring for school zones. Um
the signage what the signage should be
[1:08:39] picked up uh this week and installed by
next week. That's what we're hoping.
[1:08:44] » School speed being 15 miles an hour.
>> 25.
[1:08:47] » You can't.
>> It's already 25, isn't it?
[1:08:50] » Yes,
>> it's 25.
[1:08:54] » No.
>> So we have we in last year's budget, we
[1:08:58] put a traffic monitoring program
together with SDK urban SDK and we've
[1:09:04] been monitoring it. We get it. We get
weekly
[1:09:07] daily monthly reports on the top five
roads in blue hills that are above uh
[1:09:17] above uh 85% of speed and we deploy our
officers out there to take force
[1:09:23] management. Lasser is not one of those
roads
[1:09:28] uh and well I should say but it is one
of the roads it's anywhere from 10 to 11
[1:09:34] miles hour
The average that we are finding in in
[1:09:38] vehicle speed when we go out there and
do enforcement action that is confirmed
[1:09:43] we are going out there and we're
stopping people for 9 10 11
[1:09:50] » 35
>> 35 36 is is the range
[1:09:56] » school
>> go ahead school what the school signs do
[1:09:59] is they give us double fine we give more
more fine on the fine side doubles the
[1:10:05] I'm sorry, Amy. Should these people give
their name and address, please? Could
[1:10:10] you?
>> Sure.
[1:10:10] » Thank you.
>> Yeah, Bill 236
[1:10:14] res been attending these for a while.
Appreciate you guys continuing to bring
[1:10:18] it up as a concern for all of us and I
are trying to stay tight with the group
[1:10:24] of individuals that have been showing up
to these meetings in the past. um that
[1:10:27] would express an interest in trying to
go back to the consensus that was in the
[1:10:33] room back in April or May when there
were maybe a dozen families that were
[1:10:38] rooting for that other option that's not
the roundabout that is the traffic
[1:10:41] that's going to take us three years in
any way
[1:10:48] option I know that I I saw the study I
saw what they were talking about I think
[1:10:54] they were thinking more of traffic flow
for traffic safety for individuals and
[1:11:00] we we do save the children for the
morning and the afternoon that is very
[1:11:03] important. Obviously children tug at our
start strings. We have two middle
[1:11:06] schoolers but there is a lot of
residents that just want to ride their
[1:11:09] bike or go for a walk at that
intersection too. And if you think about
[1:11:13] the general safety of the community and
totality, I really truly believe and all
[1:11:18] the dozens of families that came here
that live in that area, I truly believe
[1:11:21] that a a better just cross light non
roundabout situation, the option two
[1:11:26] that was provided by ROC
is the better way to go.
[1:11:31] » Can I suggest that you get a petition
going?
[1:11:34] » Absolutely. and you present it to your
city and ask them to put some money
[1:11:38] towards this
>> because it benefits you the most and all
[1:11:43] of your the township the most. And if if
they would come forward with helping to
[1:11:49] pay with for you know to to make the
cost the same to us whether we have a
[1:11:54] roundabout or a
>> a light that would make a huge
[1:12:00] difference. Wouldn't you all agree? I
this is a great idea and um I'll because
[1:12:04] so the light is what a million dollars
right
[1:12:07] » two million but
yeah so the problem
[1:12:10] » for the city ourselves I thought we paid
half that million for us our challenge
[1:12:14] here is we have a $13 million budget
>> that's you guys have a huge budget I
[1:12:20] mean if if you could
>> ask them to pay at least half of it if
[1:12:23] if you show the power of the people
>> like that I mean we're a great idea
[1:12:28] we're happy to support it we don't know
very well. So if there's any instruction
[1:12:33] maybe
>> I think the the best path is you have
[1:12:36] you are taxpaying residents in the
township and it affects you and if if
[1:12:41] you could appeal to your city that would
be terrific
[1:12:45] » and I would offer I mean any of us would
and just mayor by title but um I would
[1:12:52] go with the chief and one of you guys
and go into that school district and
[1:12:56] talk to that principal and I would get
them because that's you know you're
[1:13:00] We're we're all paying taxes for the
school district, right?
[1:13:04] » And so they should be able to contribute
too. The schools should do something. So
[1:13:09] if you had us and the county and you had
the school, we should probably go to the
[1:13:14] super.
>> Sounds like a stretch though. If she
[1:13:15] doesn't really care a little bit more
receptive.
[1:13:18] » I was going to say, you know what, I
wouldn't do the principal. I I don't
[1:13:22] know who the superintendent is now, but
I would go to the superintendent.
[1:13:25] And I this has to be a collaborative
effort on everybody's part to do this.
[1:13:32] Um I and don't get us wrong, we agree
a light would be a lot better. The 2
[1:13:39] million, it's a little bit heavy for us,
but let's try to figure out a way how to
[1:13:42] get the 2 million.
>> Whether it be done by grant, taxes, the
[1:13:47] school district,
>> the county, we can look we'll see what
[1:13:52] we can do. Does that work?
>> That's right.
[1:13:55] I I just want it clear the principal's
reaction and the principal's involvement
[1:14:01] was for the losser issue not to be loser
[1:14:06] they're two separate things I just that
principal really doesn't understand she
[1:14:12] should ask the parents the students in
that school how they feel about it
[1:14:16] because I'm convinced that they feel
different you've got to drive that you
[1:14:20] know I drive that street at 8 7:30 or 8
in the morning when these cars are
[1:14:24] backed Yeah, there all these big things
that I couldn't drive and like one after
[1:14:28] another for four for their two kids or
three kids. There's no way that those
[1:14:32] people would accept their principal
saying that if they knew they'd say they
[1:14:36] want the kid to go to a different
school.
[1:14:40] Just a little com.
[1:14:52] » Oh, that's a
>> that's a good point.
[1:14:58] » Yeah.
>> I'm sorry. Can you just state your name
[1:15:01] for Amy?
[1:15:04] » Okay. She knows who. Okay. Thank you.
Um,
[1:15:07] » thank you for coming.
>> Yeah. Thank you for coming. This this is
[1:15:09] a big concern. Lasser is a big concern.
We don't have the best, you know,
[1:15:14] approach of what we want to do. We just
know we it needs to slow down. We need
[1:15:18] to we need to manage the traffic and the
crosswalk. Absolutely.
[1:15:24] » Okay. Anything else? We don't have to
make a decision, but we got some
[1:15:28] » Would you like me to bring or ask the
road commission to come back?
[1:15:31] » Yes, please.
>> You know, could we could we take a look
[1:15:34] at grants?
>> I got to believe there's some type of
[1:15:38] Yeah,
>> safety grant. Yeah,
[1:15:41] » we have looked at some. Um, it would be
helpful if we knew the direction and
[1:15:45] then we we could apply.
>> I don't know if inviting them back right
[1:15:48] now would help. They would just tell us
the same thing. I I think if you could
[1:15:52] find out if they will pay for the
crosswalks, the hawk like crosswalk,
[1:15:56] » we'll do that.
>> That would help.
[1:15:59] » Yep.
>> I mean, if you think it would help for
[1:16:01] them to come back, but I don't,
>> you know, if you look at quad, I bet you
[1:16:04] could find some grants for us.
>> I remember talking to a safe routes to
[1:16:08] school program through Michigan and they
provide
[1:16:14] » why don't you why don't you go for it
but hey
[1:16:19] » you really should have
>> those aren't all necessarily so
[1:16:25] crossings are in the township so
>> why don't you talk to your township
[1:16:30] about doing that apply for the grants
>> yeah that would be a good idea
[1:16:33] » I'll say you guys are very receptive
We'll try our best.
[1:16:38] » Okay.
>> You can't even vote for us.
[1:16:44] » Don't worry about it. Exactly.
>> I'm hoping they come back in 15 months.
[1:16:47] » Yeah.
>> But on Tuesdays, I'll be home with my
[1:16:50] wife.
>> Thank you very much. Okay. Productive
[1:16:54] anyway. Um Okay. The next item on the
agenda and um apologize. Everybody, you
[1:17:00] know, said what's this all about? um is
to hear an update from Mayor McCarthy,
[1:17:06] myself on the planning commission
ordinance amendment process. So um I
[1:17:11] wanted to so everybody's on the same
page as far as the moratorum. We started
[1:17:16] this moratorum I believe it was in
February, correct? And we've extended it
[1:17:20] and it's actually due up today. That's
when it's due. Um I know that uh there's
[1:17:27] been a lot of questions. What is it? Why
did we do it? Was it really worth it?
[1:17:33] Um, and I wanted to tell you it's it's
been an interesting process with the
[1:17:38] planning commission because they
actually in the last two meetings and
[1:17:43] Commissioner Buckley will say this too
is um they've really worked really well
[1:17:49] about the ordinance. They've um they
talked about we we went through half of
[1:17:55] it and then this one last meeting we
were going through the second half and
[1:18:00] everybody is really giving their
feedback and everybody's really paying
[1:18:04] attention to what the city wants um and
and what we should be doing. So I know
[1:18:12] it first started out with office space.
Do we really need more office buildings
[1:18:16] here?
I'd probably tell you that nobody on
[1:18:19] that commission on the planning
commission thinks we need another office
[1:18:22] building. Um I'll just go that far out
because we've got other ones and they
[1:18:28] are and so that's one of the things that
they've been talking about. You know, we
[1:18:32] did find out that our vacancy rate for
offices uh when they did the study they
[1:18:39] found out it was like what 18 19 and now
it's 22% or something. And um one of the
[1:18:45] things that one of the commissioners on
the planning commission said which was
[1:18:48] Will Hustler and I really liked it is he
said he goes part of what this did this
[1:18:54] whole moratorum is it got us to start
looking at our city center
[1:19:01] more closely and what we want. And then
he said I love this. He goes we have to
[1:19:07] modernize our approach to a city center
area. And I I love that word. I was
[1:19:13] like, that's really, you know, what so
there there it opened everybody's eyes
[1:19:18] to what do we want here and what do we
want to do? Um, we have all the we have
[1:19:24] all the data from Joe. She's still
working with the commission. We because
[1:19:29] our commission we have like five or six
items on we get to the end of this and
[1:19:33] we don't get it done unfortunately. But
it's really great conversation. So, just
[1:19:40] to give you I know a couple of you came
in later and then I'll tell you why. You
[1:19:44] know, we're at this parking one and they
want to say, do you want to do it by
[1:19:48] gross or do you want to do it by net?
And there's this philosophy that we
[1:19:52] don't really want to do bigger buildings
and if you do it by um net, it allows
[1:19:58] for a bigger building to be put on the
lot. And there they were, you know,
[1:20:02] there's all these other different
reasons. Um, so I did also learn from
[1:20:08] Mark um that we don't need the moratorum
to continue to work on the ordinance.
[1:20:14] Um, the planning commission has their
orders, their marching orders. They're
[1:20:18] going to talk about it at every meeting
that we have until it's where we want
[1:20:23] it. Um, I don't think this is going to
be a long drawn out process. Okay. Um, I
[1:20:28] think it'll be um
I I'm just really pleased that how I
[1:20:35] watched the whole planning commission or
we did went full circle on this and just
[1:20:39] really dove into it.
>> Great.
[1:20:41] » Um, so, uh, great feedback. So, what I
would like to propose probably is, um,
[1:20:48] I'm not sure we still need to, um,
extend the moratorum. We, we've got a
[1:20:52] direction. We know where we're going. Um
there's a couple things that came out of
[1:20:57] this. Number one, yeah, we needed to
update some of the things in the
[1:21:01] language in here. Um number two is we do
need to do a survey, a new survey with
[1:21:07] our residents because it's been a while.
So, we should have that done. Um not
[1:21:12] now, but down how do you think we've
changed or remedied that concern? Well,
[1:21:18] I I can give you one answer is that we
have a building that had was it 160,000
[1:21:25] feet and the Toddman family was keeping
their family office there with 20,000 or
[1:21:30] something in an empty building. We have
one person who's buying it and filling
[1:21:34] the building up. My guest right now and
we have the cajian building which is now
[1:21:40] going to have a second tenant and there
was at 190 or 200,000 ft. They're 50%
[1:21:47] filled from not zero in the last six
months. My sense is there is a number of
[1:21:54] corporate entities. They're going to
fill the buildings up here inevitably.
[1:21:58] I'm not excited about it because I think
that there's some using some vacant land
[1:22:03] there could make it its own downtown,
but we're not going to get there now.
[1:22:07] Those buildings are going to fill up
again. So that tells me that Woodward
[1:22:12] should not be having any office if we
can avoid it and we should make it down
[1:22:16] zone that change. We're too late to stop
it unless the person who bought the
[1:22:22] restaurant decides he wants to put it to
more than just purely office use which
[1:22:26] he can do and you know that will be his
decision. We've only got one other major
[1:22:32] parcel available and that's the first
store which is just it's just a debacle.
[1:22:38] what's happened from the beginning
there. Someone paid too much money for
[1:22:42] it and sometimes you lose money. I mean,
as a person who invests, I can tell you
[1:22:47] you lose money a lot. And I think
there's one last really nice piece of
[1:22:51] property. We've got to figure out how to
access the two and a half acres that's
[1:22:55] south of Long Lake behind the buildings
there that I always saw was purely flood
[1:23:00] plane. And and and I think that, you
know, I don't know if Saka owns that
[1:23:05] office building there. I don't know who
owns the office buildings. Um, two of
[1:23:09] them right on Long Lake and and behind
there there's a huge attractive vacant
[1:23:14] land that we should put some good use to
uh and and we should make it really
[1:23:19] attractive. I don't give
>> that parking lot back there during the
[1:23:23] day though.
>> Behind it there's another
[1:23:26] » there's another one.
>> There's another acreage back there. He
[1:23:29] probably needs access along.
>> There's no access right now to that,
[1:23:33] » right? And that's the problem. And it
would just it'd be I mean if we had the
[1:23:38] right access point in there,
it would make it attractive for someone
[1:23:44] with some kind of tax rebonding or some
type of tax break when they develop to
[1:23:49] do something because we don't have a
downtown. I'm going to leave the meeting
[1:23:53] without my wife here and without dinner
and I'm in deep trouble. That means I
[1:23:57] got to have two of those diet ice creams
tonight for my dinner. And and we have
[1:24:01] nowhere else to go in this town. And in
the morning, you're going to a bagel
[1:24:05] place when when you know other people
going downtown go to go to the place on
[1:24:09] Maple. That nice that nice coffee house
there that's that's off at Maple and
[1:24:14] Cranbrook if you've been in there. And
they've got the barber shop on the
[1:24:17] second floor. I mean, that's the kind of
use I'd like to see on Woodward Avenue.
[1:24:21] And we are going to have to figure out
how to do some tax benefits if it's
[1:24:26] kosher and we can get away with it and
and make do those developments.
[1:24:32] I'm not unhappy that I pushed for a
moratorum because we really didn't give
[1:24:36] thought about where we're going with the
city here.
[1:24:40] » Yeah.
Comments.
[1:24:46] » Nothing to I mean I agree a lot with
>> if you disagree with me with what you're
[1:24:52] saying.
>> Probably wondering where I am on tax
[1:24:54] incentives. I think there's a need for
some different uses in the city and um
[1:24:58] we want to promote that as much as
possible and I think that we can we can
[1:25:03] get through that like you said without
the moratorum. Um
[1:25:09] the moratorum no matter what is just a
temporary
[1:25:13] » uh slowdown or stop stoppage and that
that only lasts for so long. So this
[1:25:18] process of updating the you know our
focus and what we want to see developed
[1:25:24] in the city is going to take
considerable amount of time. I would
[1:25:28] think as you mentioned it, it gets done
at the end of these meetings and
[1:25:33] » yeah,
>> it's it's hard to uh
[1:25:37] » I I would say though um the only thing I
don't agree with on yours is and and I
[1:25:42] and um we we we've talked about it, but
you know to put another I'm
[1:25:51] to put another office building on
Woodward. I literally everybody I say
[1:25:56] that to drops their head.
>> It's it's
[1:26:00] » they just sit there and they just go.
>> So I think it's time that we modernize
[1:26:05] the city. I like that word.
>> Yeah. But I I just don't know how you're
[1:26:08] going to encourage a coffee shop. I mean
that I would love that and I agree with
[1:26:13] all of you that we need diversity. I'm
just not sure. I don't think the
[1:26:16] moratorum was helping but we didn't do
anything during the mortorium to help.
[1:26:21] That is my concern. We gave thought
about where we want to go with our city
[1:26:25] which we haven't given thought to for 30
years
[1:26:26] » which is very good. I agree.
>> That's that's the thing we just never
[1:26:30] had really we really needed the shot to
the head.
[1:26:33] » Yeah.
>> So I know and you know the other thing
[1:26:37] is my last comment is um
>> and I'll get into this with another
[1:26:41] thing is you know it's difficult to
change but sometimes change is good.
[1:26:46] it's needed in a city. And um I just
think that this uh I I' I'd like us to
[1:26:53] be a little bit of a a commission,
planning, zoning, city commission that
[1:26:59] we're commissioners that are committed
to really changing our or looking at our
[1:27:04] city and seeing what we need
>> adapting.
[1:27:08] We need to moderate. I agree. So with
that um do we need a um motion to to
[1:27:16] because mortorium ends today or just
nothing we let it go.
[1:27:21] » Unless anybody has any other feelings.
>> Are you guys okay with that?
[1:27:26] » Okay. All right. Thank you for listening
to my and sorry about the vagueness. I
[1:27:30] didn't know how to put it on the
>> I appreciate that.
[1:27:34] » I didn't know how to put it on the
agenda. So I really appreciate that. Um
[1:27:38] okay. Next item on the agenda is the
commission will hear the city manager
[1:27:42] comments.
>> Mayor had a couple things. Uh first of
[1:27:45] all, I'm not sure if anybody's put on
their calendar yet, but September 20th
[1:27:50] is the uh open house.
>> Oh, good.
[1:27:53] » And I know that the chief has wrapped a
car in in uh in recognition of the
[1:27:59] country's 250th birthday.
>> Oh, I love that.
[1:28:03] » Great.
>> It's getting done right now, I think. Um
[1:28:05] I
>> we're going to keep it
[1:28:07] » uh for at least a year. at least a year.
It uh contains part of the um
[1:28:13] constitution on it, American flag 250,
the anniversary of our country.
[1:28:19] » That's great.
>> I love that. Hats off to that idea.
[1:28:23] » So, I know Commissioner Fischer wanted
some celebration with with that. So,
[1:28:27] we're trying to make make that happen.
>> That's great. Great. Um, another thing
[1:28:33] also that Amy and I were talking about
is this could be a good opportunity for
[1:28:37] a newsletter. There's a few items out
there that are might be interesting to
[1:28:41] our residents. One is the Woodward
closure.
[1:28:44] Uh, we have the Chesterfield Bridge
project that's going to be hopefully
[1:28:48] done in maybe a few weeks. But, um, also
uh, we think it's important that
[1:28:54] residents understand about the library
millage that's going to come up in
[1:28:58] November. So maybe might we might uh not
make it in time for the Chesterfield. It
[1:29:02] might be done. But uh certainly the Wood
Wood Woodward closure is going to be a
[1:29:06] point of interest for our residents and
also library millillage.
[1:29:09] » When does the closure start officially?
What date do they have a date? I know it
[1:29:13] was after the dream cruise, but I
didn't.
[1:29:16] » I don't know. I can find out.
>> Three months.
[1:29:20] » Uh when's that start, Lauren?
>> The Woodward closure.
[1:29:24] » That's what I was asking him. when
they're closing Woodward. They said it
[1:29:27] was after the dream cruise, but they
didn't give us a date.
[1:29:30] » They didn't give us a date.
>> Okay.
[1:29:34] » Where the equipment is out to last.
[1:29:39] » Okay. Chesterfield's open.
>> Good.
[1:29:43] » So cool.
>> Well, I still remember
[1:29:45] » about how you like Chester.
>> Yeah.
[1:29:47] » Think it ahead.
>> How long ago was that, Jamie? I can
[1:29:51] still I can still remember you bringing
No way. and put it out and then we got a
[1:29:56] grant and we had to wait and
>> grant Yeah, it took a while to grant
[1:30:02] » Okay. Anything else? What looks nice?
[1:30:08] » It was open to traffic today. So,
>> we have uh some concerns of residents
[1:30:14] and uh actually Jamie and I went out
last week to talk and some residents
[1:30:18] that live right on Chesterville right
there and and accommodated them. So, I
[1:30:23] think we're keeping people happy as much
as possible.
[1:30:28] » Okay. Um, next one is the commission
will consider other businesses. I have
[1:30:33] like three on my um
>> I have one as well.
[1:30:37] » So, do you go ahead?
>> Uh, I would like to propose that we
[1:30:41] impose a higher bond for new
construction
[1:30:45] uh for any homes being built where the
new road chip seal is. And I would I
[1:30:53] just want to ask the city if you know um
a couple things like
[1:30:58] what is the repair cost because we have
a bond in place for a hard road
[1:31:04] um replacement cost. We know what that
is and and these huge construction
[1:31:10] vehicles do not do the same kind of
damage that they will do to this chip
[1:31:15] seal. So, um, if you could help us find
out what the average and maximum repair
[1:31:20] bill is per house being built and, um,
if the estimated cost to repair 100 ft
[1:31:28] to 500 ft, you know, one lane of chip
sealed road, I mean, it would just be
[1:31:33] and then we could come up with this with
the amount of the bond needed. And I
[1:31:39] don't know, you probably can't get the
chip seal repaired and give them the
[1:31:43] bill and know how much of the bond that
you can return to the resident, but it
[1:31:47] just seems there has to be other cities
do this too. Um, Marine City, Michigan
[1:31:53] requires cash construction of 5% of the
estimated project cost or $1,000,
[1:31:59] whichever is greater, to cover the
damage resulting from construction
[1:32:02] activity. Um, Gitselli uses essentially
the same formula. um
[1:32:09] 5% of the project costs or $1,000
whichever is greater which is you know
[1:32:14] if it's a $3 million home that's that's
a huge bond. I don't think we want to do
[1:32:18] five I don't know
>> construction costs are
[1:32:21] » um Madison Height has a construction
bond 5%. So I think I think it's
[1:32:27] something we should put in place before
your beautiful new roads are completely
[1:32:32] trashed by all these
>> Well, we do we do have uh So, the
[1:32:37] construction bond is different from the
road bond. We do have a road bond which
[1:32:41] we charge $10,000 for all asphalt roads.
And um we actually went through an
[1:32:47] exercise uh uh there's a house on
Canterbury that damaged the road,
[1:32:52] damaged the chip seal. And uh Jamie, you
can you can uh you can correct me, but
[1:32:59] interestingly enough, that the cor the
cost to repair the chip seal is a lot
[1:33:03] less than the uh per square foot. A lot
less than the um asphalt roads. It just
[1:33:11] it just is because asphalt roads we have
to have to cut it out and compact it and
[1:33:17] put it all back where this uh house on
on one of the roads in Trobridge
[1:33:22] subdivision. Uh we had to we had to put
asphalt uh shore up some of the areas
[1:33:27] with ashvalt because of the heavy trucks
and then we did the chip seal but we
[1:33:32] charged them for that. Um, but didn't
end up being uh it probably I think the
[1:33:37] the cost was maybe $78,000, but we had a
$10,000 road bond, so we were fine.
[1:33:43] » I I think you're spot on. I think the
difference is it's hard to find cheap
[1:33:47] sealers. It's easy to find asphalt
repair people. So, usually we're not the
[1:33:50] ones doing the work on the asphalt.
We're just making sure it gets done
[1:33:53] right, inspected. So, as long as
everyone's comfortable with fact that we
[1:34:00] you have to we had to go contract that
out, right, for the chip seal
[1:34:05] or did they do it?
>> Scott, did we uh So,
[1:34:10] » what happened with that Canterbury
house?
[1:34:11] » I think,
[1:34:16] » but the the How did we recoup that cost?
[1:34:23] So, we took the money out of the money
that we owed them and it just it's less
[1:34:29] usually than
>> Well, that's not what I mean. All these
[1:34:31] other cities are are charging more.
they're 25,000, you know, like I I'm
[1:34:37] just suggesting that construction on the
recently, you know, completed chip
[1:34:42] sealed roads be 15,000 to $25,000
instead of I know you're saying it's
[1:34:48] less, but that that's not counting the
whole rest of the road that it goes on
[1:34:51] and it ruins on its way. And you're not
even in the rainy season yet.
[1:34:55] » You know, that is tough. It was tough
with that uh talking with that resident,
[1:34:59] too, because
>> it's not just the parking.
[1:35:02] » It's hard. You're right. It was just
hard to, you know, he was, this
[1:35:06] gentleman was, you know, I can't be
responsible for all this, all these
[1:35:09] holes on the different rows and that,
but
[1:35:12] he probably was partially responsible. I
just say just increase it for everybody.
[1:35:16] » Yeah.
>> You mean asphalt as well as ship seal?
[1:35:19] » Look, nothing's that 10 grand was what,
eight, six, seven, eight years ago we
[1:35:24] started that maybe six years ago.
>> It was interesting when we
[1:35:27] This is not everybody's on the
commission, but interestingly enough, I
[1:35:31] came to the commission to asked for this
and asked for a big and I got push back
[1:35:35] that we lower it. Do you remember that
Jamie?
[1:35:37] » So I'm glad that you're seeing it the
other way now because we agree we would
[1:35:40] we would we would like to be more
careful and and uh and have that money
[1:35:44] available. Uh so thank you. Um and then
I think we're just going to go through
[1:35:50] go through different neighborhoods.
>> So like you have the road map of yellow,
[1:35:54] red, green kind of thing.
>> Yeah, we have Yeah. you know, uh, yes,
[1:35:58] where where all the signs are and where,
uh, he he believes that these should be
[1:36:03] some of the first areas to replace. And
so I have to, uh, matter of fact, I just
[1:36:07] talked to Commissioner Baxter about it
to utilize the the folks that he was
[1:36:12] working with and he put together that
wood sign. So, uh, my plan is to
[1:36:20] take that as the second step to start
putting some of these wood signs into
[1:36:23] place.
And then will you replace the green and
[1:36:26] white signs on Woodward with the black
and gold?
[1:36:29] » Yes.
>> Oh, good.
[1:36:31] » Yes. Yes.
>> I don't think we're going to some some
[1:36:35] of some residents were asking to have
Woodward on there also. I don't think
[1:36:37] that makes any sense because I think
they know where they're at. But anyways,
[1:36:42] uh so we're just going to just the
street name.
[1:36:48] » So, and I I have the So, I have all the
particulars, all the approvals.
[1:36:53] And if you have any recommendations
where you see some signs in the in the
[1:36:57] neighborhoods, which I think we're going
to replace the signs in the
[1:37:00] neighborhoods with the wood signs.
>> Yes.
[1:37:02] » Tell me what you think uh should be
first or whatever. We have an idea where
[1:37:06] where we believe we should go.
>> Um I'm just I was just going to sort of
[1:37:09] follow what Jamie was recommending, but
if you have any recommendations, we'd be
[1:37:13] happy to do whatever you want. Well,
we're driving around the city. You can
[1:37:16] know I I'm I'm in my head I'm seeing a
couple of them, but I can't think of the
[1:37:20] name of the road, you know, that were
really dilapidated. And so, we'll give
[1:37:24] you pass those on. Okay.
>> Could you just send us an email of which
[1:37:27] neighborhoods you're going after at a
time?
[1:37:29] » Yes,
>> that'd be great. Thanks.
[1:37:32] » Um, okay. Anybody else have any other
business questions? If not, can I motion
[1:37:37] to adjurnn?
[1:37:40] » Okay. Thank you.