1
00:03:23,933 --> 00:03:25,133
Good morning. It's 9. 30.

2
00:03:38,091 --> 00:03:39,131
When we have a quorum.

3
00:03:55,206 --> 00:03:58,939
Good morning. We are live streaming and recording the February

4
00:03:59,259 --> 00:04:03,206
3rd, 2026 Community of the Whole Meeting. Our rebuilding has

5
00:04:03,446 --> 00:04:05,446
a single - stage fire alarm in the event of

6
00:04:05,526 --> 00:04:08,326
an emergency or activation of the fire alarm, please exit

7
00:04:08,326 --> 00:04:11,206
the building through the near safe exit. Assemble in the

8
00:04:11,286 --> 00:04:13,446
East parking area by the Georgian Trail and the Beaver

9
00:04:13,446 --> 00:04:16,966
Valley Reach and await further instructions for individuals requiring special

10
00:04:17,286 --> 00:04:23,326
assistants. Please let us staff member know. Good morning, Madam

11
00:04:23,966 --> 00:04:26,526
Clerk and members in the chamber. Thank you and welcome.

12
00:04:27,706 --> 00:04:30,346
We are now moving on to A2, the approval of

13
00:04:30,586 --> 00:04:34,746
the agenda. Madam Chair, we'll just start with the traditional

14
00:04:35,066 --> 00:04:38,746
territory acknowledgement. Why don't we, okay. Shall I have you

15
00:04:38,746 --> 00:04:41,466
do that, please? Thank you. Thank you. We would like

16
00:04:41,546 --> 00:04:45,066
to begin our meeting by recognizing the First Nations, May

17
00:04:45,146 --> 00:04:47,866
T, and anyone Peoples of Canada as traditional stewards of

18
00:04:47,946 --> 00:04:51,706
the land. The municipalities located within the boundary of Treaty

19
00:04:51,946 --> 00:04:55,626
18, Region of 1818, which is the traditional land of

20
00:04:55,786 --> 00:05:02,092
the Anishinaabe on a Shonay, and Wendatwyne. Peoples. Thank you.

21
00:05:02,492 --> 00:05:05,932
Now we are going on to A2. My apologies to

22
00:05:05,932 --> 00:05:09,548
the approval of the agenda. It's recommended that the agenda

23
00:05:10,028 --> 00:05:13,468
of February 3rd, 2026, we proved us circulated, including any

24
00:05:13,628 --> 00:05:16,588
items added to the agenda. So what any of my

25
00:05:16,588 --> 00:05:21,073
colleagues like to add any items to the agenda. Seeing

26
00:05:21,313 --> 00:05:23,633
none, could I remove her in a secondary, please, for

27
00:05:23,713 --> 00:05:29,407
the motion. So moved. Thank you, Councillor Del Move, seconded

28
00:05:29,487 --> 00:05:33,575
by Councillor Porter. Seeing no further hands. Let's call the

29
00:05:33,575 --> 00:05:36,149
vote, please. Thank you, Madam Chair. The vote is open.

30
00:05:48,937 --> 00:05:52,529
Is closed. Thank you. The motion is carried five. Nothing

31
00:05:52,609 --> 00:05:56,873
with the mayor and the deputy mayor absent today. Mother,

32
00:05:57,033 --> 00:05:59,273
I'll just confirm the council member attendance before we go

33
00:05:59,273 --> 00:06:02,553
on. I confirm that all members of council are present

34
00:06:02,713 --> 00:06:04,553
in the council chamber this morning with the exception of

35
00:06:04,953 --> 00:06:09,193
counselor Ardell, who is attending virtually. Mayor Mattrosovs is absent

36
00:06:09,273 --> 00:06:12,393
today. Deputy Mayor Bourdigno is absent today, but is expected

37
00:06:12,553 --> 00:06:15,033
to join the meeting in a little bit. Thank you.

38
00:06:15,913 --> 00:06:20,713
Thank you. Moving on to A3, Declaration of Pecuniary Interest,

39
00:06:20,633 --> 00:06:23,273
note in accordance with municipal conflict of interest act, and

40
00:06:23,193 --> 00:06:27,353
the town procedural bylaw 2023 - 62. Council members must

41
00:06:27,513 --> 00:06:29,673
file a written statement of the interest and its general

42
00:06:29,673 --> 00:06:32,313
nature with the clerk for inclusion on the registry. Do

43
00:06:32,393 --> 00:06:37,779
we have any declarations of pecuniary interest. We just check

44
00:06:37,939 --> 00:06:41,873
my other screen. All right, seeing none, we'll move on

45
00:06:42,113 --> 00:06:46,971
then. To the next item, which is previous minutes. So

46
00:06:47,291 --> 00:06:49,771
it's recommended that the committee of the whole minutes of

47
00:06:49,851 --> 00:06:54,331
January 13th, 2026, we adopted a circulated, including any revisions

48
00:06:54,331 --> 00:06:57,282
to be made. Are there any revisions that need to

49
00:06:57,282 --> 00:07:01,207
be made. Seeing none could have a mover in a

50
00:07:01,207 --> 00:07:04,807
secondary, please. On my option, moved by Councillor Porter, seconded

51
00:07:04,887 --> 00:07:13,684
by. Myself, Councillor Hope. Seeing no further comment, shall we

52
00:07:13,924 --> 00:07:17,158
put the vote. Thank you, Madam Chair. What is open?

53
00:07:19,045 --> 00:07:19,285
Thank you.

54
00:07:44,110 --> 00:07:46,990
Madam Chair, I'm having an issue with my vote. Oh,

55
00:07:46,990 --> 00:07:49,150
there we go. Great, thank you. The boat is closed.

56
00:07:49,522 --> 00:07:52,002
Thank you. That motion is carried. 5 - 0 with

57
00:07:52,322 --> 00:07:55,282
the mayor and the deputy mayor absent today. So, moving

58
00:07:55,442 --> 00:07:59,762
on to a statement that Madam Clerk is going to

59
00:08:00,002 --> 00:08:02,962
read out. Thank you very much. Go ahead, Madam Clerk.

60
00:08:03,993 --> 00:08:06,649
Thank you, Madam Chair. Before we begin, I would like

61
00:08:06,569 --> 00:08:08,649
to remind everyone that the town of the Blue Mountains

62
00:08:08,889 --> 00:08:12,089
is committed to maintaining a safe, respectful, and professional environment

63
00:08:12,169 --> 00:08:16,329
for all meetings and interactions involving council, the public, and

64
00:08:16,409 --> 00:08:20,009
town staff. In accordance with the town's respectful public interactions

65
00:08:20,249 --> 00:08:26,649
policy, policy number POLCOR 2207. Courteous and respectful communication is

66
00:08:26,729 --> 00:08:30,809
required at all times. Behavior that is disruptive, inappropriate, or

67
00:08:31,049 --> 00:08:34,729
disrespectful, will not be tolerated. This includes any comments or

68
00:08:34,809 --> 00:08:39,529
conduct that is threatening, harassing, discriminatory, or abusive. All speakers

69
00:08:39,769 --> 00:08:42,809
are expected to address council and staff respectfully, and keep

70
00:08:42,969 --> 00:08:46,409
comments focused on the matter before council. If these expectations

71
00:08:46,569 --> 00:08:49,769
are not met, the chair may issue a warning direct

72
00:08:49,849 --> 00:08:52,249
the speaker to stop, or take further steps to maintain

73
00:08:52,569 --> 00:08:55,769
order and ensure the meeting can proceed. Thank you. Thank

74
00:08:55,769 --> 00:08:59,369
you, Madam Clerk. Now, moving on to item B, staff

75
00:08:59,449 --> 00:09:02,089
reports deputations and correspondence. We're in the committee of the

76
00:09:02,409 --> 00:09:05,449
whole, and operations is coming up now, and it's to

77
00:09:05,449 --> 00:09:08,840
be chaired by Councillor McKinley. Councillor Kinley. I give you

78
00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:11,320
the chair. Thank you, Madam Chair. Okay, we have no

79
00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:15,000
deputation, so item B2, public comment period regarding matters included

80
00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:18,280
in operations portion of the meeting. Each speaker is a

81
00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:20,200
lot of three minutes. Note and accordance with the town

82
00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:24,520
procedural bylaw 2023 - 62. 10 minutes is a lotted

83
00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:26,280
at the beginning and end of each section of the

84
00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:28,840
committee of the whole meeting to receive public comments regarding

85
00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:32,463
matters, included on the agenda. Each person shall provide their

86
00:09:32,543 --> 00:09:36,063
name and addresses and is required to address their comments

87
00:09:36,223 --> 00:09:39,343
to the chair. Comments shall not refer to personal litigation

88
00:09:39,503 --> 00:09:42,943
or potential litigation matters. Or be in response to matters

89
00:09:42,943 --> 00:09:45,983
that have already been the subject of a public meeting.

90
00:09:46,223 --> 00:09:48,303
It being noted that the verbal commenting period has ended

91
00:09:48,623 --> 00:09:51,823
written correspondence may still be received in response to matters

92
00:09:51,903 --> 00:09:54,063
that have been the subject of a public meeting. If

93
00:09:54,143 --> 00:09:56,623
a person is unable to personally attend the meeting or

94
00:09:56,623 --> 00:09:59,183
during any period, we're an emergency has been declared to

95
00:09:59,503 --> 00:10:02,303
exist in the municipality. They shall provide their public comments

96
00:10:02,463 --> 00:10:04,543
in writing to the clerk in advance of the meeting

97
00:10:04,783 --> 00:10:06,543
for the clerk to read on behalf of the author

98
00:10:07,183 --> 00:10:11,503
during the public comment period. Now, item B 3. 1.

99
00:10:11,423 --> 00:10:14,623
We have correspondence from Mr. Jim Torrance. Blue mountain. Mr.

100
00:10:14,783 --> 00:10:21,103
Chair? Yes. Oh, sorry. Yes. Sorry, just start kept reading.

101
00:10:22,759 --> 00:10:26,055
My apologies. We have members of the public that would

102
00:10:26,055 --> 00:10:29,785
like to make public comment as prescribed. Yeah, but I

103
00:10:29,705 --> 00:10:33,201
have a short hands. I have one. Please come ahead.

104
00:10:45,913 --> 00:10:50,572
John Milm, Thornbury Ontario. Good morning. I'm here on behalf

105
00:10:50,572 --> 00:10:54,812
of Community Matters to continue our conversation about the town's

106
00:10:55,132 --> 00:11:00,696
19 million dollar problem. The lengthy and twice delayed investigative

107
00:11:00,936 --> 00:11:05,016
report prepared by CAO Smith at the direction of council.

108
00:11:05,096 --> 00:11:07,656
He's a number of questions unanswered while raising a number

109
00:11:07,736 --> 00:11:12,060
of concerns. The report has not answered the following questions

110
00:11:12,460 --> 00:11:16,181
as it was directed to. One, will the report show

111
00:11:16,581 --> 00:11:19,701
when members of the senior management team be carecaware of

112
00:11:19,701 --> 00:11:25,031
the escalation. Two, what roles did the CAO and director

113
00:11:25,031 --> 00:11:28,391
of finance play an overseeing the escalation and the reporting

114
00:11:28,711 --> 00:11:33,741
process. Three. When was the mayor briefed on the escalation

115
00:11:34,381 --> 00:11:41,767
and by whom. Four. Was the deputy mayor. Who sits

116
00:11:41,767 --> 00:11:44,807
as a finance chair, briefed on the escalation, before it

117
00:11:44,807 --> 00:11:49,967
became public. If so, when and by whom. Mr. Smith

118
00:11:50,527 --> 00:11:53,647
owes us an explanation as to why these questions weren't

119
00:11:53,807 --> 00:11:58,718
addressed. His report simply tells us that responsibility lies with

120
00:11:59,678 --> 00:12:04,572
staff. Didn't we already know that? The report lacks any

121
00:12:04,892 --> 00:12:07,852
mention of the roles are elected officials played in this

122
00:12:08,092 --> 00:12:12,331
affair. And this latter point is especially serious. If we

123
00:12:12,411 --> 00:12:14,491
don't know what they were doing in the face of

124
00:12:14,491 --> 00:12:18,811
this financial crisis, how can they work with our confidence.

125
00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:25,623
This is not accountability in action. Similarly, Mr. Pacheco's report

126
00:12:26,343 --> 00:12:31,155
fails to break out the 19 million dollar surprise. While

127
00:12:31,155 --> 00:12:34,915
that may not have specifically been called for by council.

128
00:12:36,204 --> 00:12:42,715
That lack is very disappointing. Both reports. Like the clarity

129
00:12:43,115 --> 00:12:47,600
that begets the transparency that has been called for. What

130
00:12:47,680 --> 00:12:50,400
does come through, however, is the gravity of this situation.

131
00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:54,160
We have learned from the outset, the project's budgets were

132
00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:57,620
based on an adequate estimate. As a magnitude of the

133
00:12:57,860 --> 00:13:01,540
shortfalls became known, they were not reported. We've known this

134
00:13:01,620 --> 00:13:07,251
since last December. Our failures are both reporting and oversight,

135
00:13:07,171 --> 00:13:10,051
and they are shared by staff and council. Now their

136
00:13:10,131 --> 00:13:14,053
herald is as learnings, but that's not encouraging. At no

137
00:13:14,053 --> 00:13:16,773
point are we told the efficiencies are savings expected from

138
00:13:16,853 --> 00:13:20,416
the bundling of the three projects into one. But we

139
00:13:20,656 --> 00:13:22,816
are told that a great deal of work is now

140
00:13:22,816 --> 00:13:28,210
required to quote, ensure the town remains financially sustainable. Close

141
00:13:28,290 --> 00:13:34,800
quote. Sobering words. So too is the warning that this

142
00:13:35,680 --> 00:13:38,480
fiscal fiasco, quote, may result in the need to pause

143
00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:43,280
defer or reprioritize other capital projects. In other words, years

144
00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:47,647
of planning and expectation may be in jeopardy. At the

145
00:13:47,567 --> 00:13:50,607
end of the day, and to respect my three -

146
00:13:50,527 --> 00:13:55,882
minute times allotment. If the sorely needed clarity around the

147
00:13:56,042 --> 00:14:00,682
cultural behavioral and procedural changes, demanded by this 19 million

148
00:14:00,922 --> 00:14:04,042
dollar blender are not spelled out in the February 24th

149
00:14:04,042 --> 00:14:07,482
report. Council should be ready to engage in independent third

150
00:14:07,802 --> 00:14:11,204
party to get to the bottom of this mess. Thank

151
00:14:11,204 --> 00:14:14,505
you. Okay, thank you. Is there anyone else from the

152
00:14:14,665 --> 00:14:16,745
public from the gallery that was going to make a

153
00:14:16,825 --> 00:14:24,121
comment. Second call. Mr. Chair, I would like to speak

154
00:14:24,201 --> 00:14:27,721
on behalf of a colleague, who like many members of

155
00:14:28,041 --> 00:14:31,401
council couldn't make it today. Um, and I'd like to

156
00:14:31,401 --> 00:14:34,991
speak on behalf of John Greer. A resident of Thornbury

157
00:14:35,071 --> 00:14:39,838
on high bluff lane. Just a second. Madam Clerk, is

158
00:14:39,918 --> 00:14:43,091
that something that we practice before. I have not received

159
00:14:43,971 --> 00:14:46,371
an email, I don't believe from Mr. Greer noting that

160
00:14:46,771 --> 00:14:51,091
this would occur. So if Mr. Greer wishes, he's more

161
00:14:51,091 --> 00:14:53,091
than welcome to send his comments in, and I can

162
00:14:53,171 --> 00:14:55,811
circulate those to counsel. This is committee of the whole

163
00:14:56,051 --> 00:14:59,571
today. So if Mr. Greer wishes to provide his comments,

164
00:14:59,491 --> 00:15:01,651
either at the next meeting or provide me something to

165
00:15:01,731 --> 00:15:04,051
indicate that you, Mr. Millen, would read his comments on

166
00:15:04,051 --> 00:15:06,691
his behalf. We can certainly do that. The recommendations from

167
00:15:07,091 --> 00:15:10,051
today's meeting will be considered at the February 17th Council

168
00:15:10,051 --> 00:15:17,274
meeting. So Mr. Chair, your discretion. So have you got

169
00:15:18,234 --> 00:15:19,514
a pre - it's been in front of you? Yes,

170
00:15:19,434 --> 00:15:22,828
I do. Okay. Thank you. Good morning, Mr. Chair, and

171
00:15:22,828 --> 00:15:26,428
good morning to all members elected to this town's council,

172
00:15:26,348 --> 00:15:30,048
and two, to the town senior staff. I am speaking

173
00:15:30,368 --> 00:15:33,488
on behalf of John Greer from High Bluff Lane Thornbury.

174
00:15:33,648 --> 00:15:35,888
It's my hope that these few comments today will invoke

175
00:15:36,048 --> 00:15:39,248
a further reflection of the responsibility you have to be

176
00:15:39,248 --> 00:15:42,448
the voice of your constituents, because after all, you are

177
00:15:43,008 --> 00:15:46,528
our voices in the decision - making process, regardless of

178
00:15:46,768 --> 00:15:50,288
some perceived notions that discussion must take place behind closed

179
00:15:50,448 --> 00:15:54,128
doors. Reflections too, on your need to remain silent and

180
00:15:54,368 --> 00:15:57,568
unengaging during the public comment section of the Council's agenda.

181
00:15:58,690 --> 00:16:01,730
Several months ago, I stood at this lectern and made

182
00:16:01,970 --> 00:16:05,090
note of the deputy mayor's advisement and warning to counsel

183
00:16:05,250 --> 00:16:07,890
staff in the public that this town is operating on

184
00:16:08,210 --> 00:16:13,330
quote, razor thin margins, close quote, especially in reserve funds.

185
00:16:13,250 --> 00:16:15,410
When the chair of the finance committee makes that comment

186
00:16:15,730 --> 00:16:18,759
to taxpayers that sticks with you. Now we receive an

187
00:16:18,839 --> 00:16:20,599
advisement that we are going to have more than a

188
00:16:20,679 --> 00:16:25,203
19 million dollar shortfall. On pro - text undertaken by

189
00:16:25,203 --> 00:16:28,243
the town and the staff were aware of funding issues

190
00:16:28,723 --> 00:16:33,843
in August. Well before budget approval discussions for 2026. Further,

191
00:16:34,003 --> 00:16:38,483
the increased cost of the capital program will require according

192
00:16:38,403 --> 00:16:42,403
to the town CAO, a quote, careful review of cashflow,

193
00:16:42,323 --> 00:16:46,403
reserve strategies, debt projections, and prioritization of other capital projects

194
00:16:46,963 --> 00:16:50,883
to ensure that the town remains financially sustainable. Close quote.

195
00:16:51,203 --> 00:16:53,683
Through you, Mr. Chair, will the deputy mayor please make

196
00:16:53,763 --> 00:16:57,443
another comment today on this latest financial position we find

197
00:16:57,523 --> 00:17:00,824
ourselves in. I believe if there is any desire to

198
00:17:00,984 --> 00:17:05,784
allow a responsible a response, the chair has the latitude

199
00:17:05,944 --> 00:17:11,799
to allow it. Having read the report ADM. 26. 015.

200
00:17:11,719 --> 00:17:15,159
I'm extremely disappointed by its content, lack of responsiveness to

201
00:17:15,239 --> 00:17:18,839
council's clear direction for the preliminary report. And the fact

202
00:17:18,839 --> 00:17:21,559
that it cited as being the template for further reporting.

203
00:17:22,711 --> 00:17:25,911
It fails to address the issues at hand, accountability and

204
00:17:25,911 --> 00:17:29,431
transparency. The guardrails suggest sign - offs at the half

205
00:17:29,511 --> 00:17:33,191
a million dollar threshold. That cannot be considered acceptable by

206
00:17:33,591 --> 00:17:37,111
taxpayers after the almost 20 million dollar miscalculation in this

207
00:17:37,271 --> 00:17:42,231
project, especially given the massive contingencies involved. Mr. Chair, will

208
00:17:42,391 --> 00:17:45,991
you please provide your, will you please provide a response

209
00:17:46,231 --> 00:17:55,297
today respectfully? Thank you, John Greer. Okay, thank you. So

210
00:17:55,377 --> 00:18:00,820
I'll do the second coal. Third and final call. Okay,

211
00:18:00,820 --> 00:18:02,740
thank you. I will close the public comment period for

212
00:18:02,740 --> 00:18:05,350
the beginning of this. Now, we will move to item

213
00:18:05,750 --> 00:18:09,350
B 3. 1 correspondence from Mr. Jim Torrance. Blue Mountain

214
00:18:09,430 --> 00:18:13,430
Rate Paris Association regarding agenda item B 4. 1 Craig

215
00:18:13,430 --> 00:18:18,790
Leith SLS, Mill Street SPS and Bay Gray Street Linear

216
00:18:19,110 --> 00:18:24,394
Works. I would have a committee like to proceed. I

217
00:18:24,394 --> 00:18:27,615
like to pull up, please. Through the chair. Then go

218
00:18:27,615 --> 00:18:33,190
ahead. Yes, I didn't, given the, and through the chair,

219
00:18:33,270 --> 00:18:38,390
given the enormity of a 19 million dollar overspend. And

220
00:18:38,390 --> 00:18:43,510
I would say the way council was informed. I felt,

221
00:18:43,430 --> 00:18:46,550
and I do feel that every piece of correspondence and

222
00:18:46,630 --> 00:18:50,310
comments needs to be taken, um, seriously. And the Blue

223
00:18:50,390 --> 00:18:54,230
Mountain Ray pairs are, um, are respected organization within the

224
00:18:54,470 --> 00:19:00,955
town. Um, and I think it's really important. They're wondering

225
00:19:00,955 --> 00:19:04,555
about the current and future financial health of our town.

226
00:19:04,555 --> 00:19:07,675
Um, which we've just heard in a public comment. And

227
00:19:07,675 --> 00:19:11,195
I really just like to, um, address the three questions,

228
00:19:11,115 --> 00:19:14,395
three key questions they have to counsel. And they, they

229
00:19:14,475 --> 00:19:17,275
really want to know what are the critical learnings regarding

230
00:19:17,515 --> 00:19:23,755
financial oversight, project management, discipline, timely communications and reporting. And

231
00:19:24,075 --> 00:19:26,834
how and when these will be implemented. And these are

232
00:19:27,074 --> 00:19:29,874
really, I think, very common sense questions to ask at

233
00:19:29,954 --> 00:19:35,322
this time. Echo what I think. Do council and staff

234
00:19:35,402 --> 00:19:40,682
leadership have confidence in the current asset management plan, how

235
00:19:40,762 --> 00:19:43,962
the town will prioritize upgrades and replacements of other major

236
00:19:44,282 --> 00:19:47,482
infrastructure and have a clear picture of what this means

237
00:19:47,722 --> 00:19:50,841
for our long - term finances. I actually think this

238
00:19:51,001 --> 00:19:53,881
is a very important question, particularly with the notice of

239
00:19:54,041 --> 00:19:56,841
motion that I had brought forward at council because there

240
00:19:56,841 --> 00:19:59,801
was another big project on the books for Q2 with

241
00:19:59,801 --> 00:20:03,001
a six million dollar engineering budget. And we are still

242
00:20:03,321 --> 00:20:06,201
awaiting for an update from finances to how our longer

243
00:20:07,161 --> 00:20:10,344
term pitcher from a financial perspective will look. So I

244
00:20:10,264 --> 00:20:14,211
think this is equally a very reasonable question. Will an

245
00:20:14,291 --> 00:20:16,451
external audit also be conducted so that we can get

246
00:20:16,611 --> 00:20:21,608
an unvarnished evaluation and further recommendations for the future. That

247
00:20:21,688 --> 00:20:25,002
remains a question in my mind. We'll have to see

248
00:20:25,082 --> 00:20:28,705
how the reports go today. And they also ask a

249
00:20:28,705 --> 00:20:30,785
question, can it town the size of the Blue Mountains

250
00:20:31,025 --> 00:20:34,305
responsibly and effectively manage these kinds of large infrastructure projects.

251
00:20:35,065 --> 00:20:38,185
Again, I think that's a question and answer me unfold

252
00:20:38,345 --> 00:20:40,425
as we go through this process because the number of

253
00:20:40,585 --> 00:20:47,349
reports included in the motion from December 15th. So the

254
00:20:47,509 --> 00:20:51,349
problems they mentioned is also raised this question and considered

255
00:20:51,429 --> 00:20:53,909
a model for having such projects managed by a broader

256
00:20:54,069 --> 00:20:59,589
regional authority, a municipal service corporation working across multiple municipalities.

257
00:21:00,488 --> 00:21:03,848
The BMRA has already, as they said, stated indicated this

258
00:21:03,848 --> 00:21:06,728
would be worthy of consideration for our region with the

259
00:21:06,728 --> 00:21:10,008
municipalities of Southern Georgian Bay, seeming to be a logical

260
00:21:10,328 --> 00:21:14,488
geographic area to test this concept. Having recently attended Roma,

261
00:21:14,408 --> 00:21:16,888
I would say this didn't get talked about, gets talked

262
00:21:16,888 --> 00:21:20,088
about at that conference. It was talked about by members

263
00:21:20,168 --> 00:21:24,286
of the ministries. So, um, I just didn't feel this

264
00:21:24,366 --> 00:21:26,926
should just solely be received for information. I thought it

265
00:21:27,566 --> 00:21:30,846
deserved a due course. I don't know if many of

266
00:21:30,926 --> 00:21:33,886
my other colleagues would like to comment, but certainly, um,

267
00:21:34,206 --> 00:21:36,686
I'm happy to move that we received this. But, um,

268
00:21:36,926 --> 00:21:40,206
it was worthy of, um, noting more than just being

269
00:21:40,286 --> 00:21:45,725
a piece of paper. Thank you. Thank you, Council supporter.

270
00:21:45,645 --> 00:21:49,085
Um, like I said, to add to that, since I've

271
00:21:49,085 --> 00:21:51,645
noted that you're putting forward to move, to receipt, but

272
00:21:51,645 --> 00:21:55,165
would you also like to do the, uh, addition of,

273
00:21:55,085 --> 00:21:57,485
uh, follow - up report as well to any other

274
00:21:58,045 --> 00:22:02,025
unanswered questions. Yes. And thank you for asking, cause I

275
00:22:02,025 --> 00:22:04,345
would. And I think we'll take the approach that we

276
00:22:04,585 --> 00:22:08,665
took the other, um, which was in the investigation report

277
00:22:08,745 --> 00:22:11,785
that each and every question be answered. Okay. Thank you.

278
00:22:11,865 --> 00:22:14,905
Thank you, Councillor Porter. Um, I'm going to go to,

279
00:22:14,825 --> 00:22:17,785
um, counselor Maxwell. And I'm not sure if you want

280
00:22:17,705 --> 00:22:20,745
to do put that in writing to the clerk for

281
00:22:20,825 --> 00:22:28,063
the additional, uh, paragraph to that motion. Um, I will

282
00:22:28,143 --> 00:22:31,263
look up the wording that was used with respect to,

283
00:22:31,183 --> 00:22:39,025
um, the investigation report from Councillor Maxwell. Thank you, Chair.

284
00:22:38,945 --> 00:22:47,621
And could we have the correspondence up again, please? So

285
00:22:48,101 --> 00:22:51,621
when I was reading, uh, the correspondence, I thought, well,

286
00:22:51,861 --> 00:22:53,621
I'll take an opportunity to have a look at something

287
00:22:53,861 --> 00:22:58,242
else. So you started looking at, you know, private firms,

288
00:22:58,162 --> 00:23:04,230
they can. Deliver infrastructure projects and whatever. Then I came

289
00:23:04,310 --> 00:23:11,974
across, um. Infrastructure material. Which is interesting with in the

290
00:23:12,054 --> 00:23:16,601
event, you know, that a municipality is struggling. You can

291
00:23:16,761 --> 00:23:21,081
reach out to infrastructure interior and lean on their expertise.

292
00:23:21,241 --> 00:23:27,003
Uh, for delivery of water and wastewater projects. And I'm

293
00:23:27,003 --> 00:23:33,403
just wondering if during the course of this whole exercise,

294
00:23:33,323 --> 00:23:36,843
if our municipal staff actually reached out to infrastructure material

295
00:23:39,163 --> 00:23:42,923
to seek advice. Because when you do not, if you

296
00:23:42,923 --> 00:23:49,803
are concerned about with your abilities or with the delivery

297
00:23:50,043 --> 00:23:54,523
or project, I would think you should reach out outside

298
00:23:54,763 --> 00:24:00,043
expertise in order to, um, make sure that, uh, things

299
00:24:00,203 --> 00:24:04,574
move forward smoothly. And, um, anyway, I just thought I'd

300
00:24:04,574 --> 00:24:07,774
comment on that. Okay. Thank you. Kate. Thank you, Councillor

301
00:24:07,774 --> 00:24:11,374
Maxwell. Counselor Hope, I thought I saw your hand. Yes,

302
00:24:11,374 --> 00:24:17,407
go ahead. Yes. Thank you. Um, and, uh, first of

303
00:24:17,327 --> 00:24:20,607
all, as always, the BMRA have always come forward with

304
00:24:20,687 --> 00:24:26,607
very thoughtful input and what they have to say is,

305
00:24:26,847 --> 00:24:32,847
is, uh, most appropriate and requires a full answer just

306
00:24:32,847 --> 00:24:36,287
as the public comments that we heard earlier require an

307
00:24:36,447 --> 00:24:39,247
answer to every single one of their questions. So for

308
00:24:39,247 --> 00:24:42,847
sure, uh, as Councillor Porter Krafts her motion, I do

309
00:24:42,927 --> 00:24:47,087
want to support that, that, uh, that answers to all

310
00:24:47,087 --> 00:24:51,487
of these questions would be anticipated in, uh, the final

311
00:24:51,567 --> 00:24:57,407
report on February 24th. So, um, really appreciate the public

312
00:24:58,767 --> 00:25:02,687
BMRA and the public's interest in this 19 million dollar

313
00:25:03,007 --> 00:25:06,847
debacle, which deserves the attention and care of all of

314
00:25:06,767 --> 00:25:13,247
us. Um, I do want to, um, respond to a

315
00:25:13,247 --> 00:25:16,767
natural question that would come up about when, when did

316
00:25:16,927 --> 00:25:19,567
anyone know when? And so there's a question that I

317
00:25:19,567 --> 00:25:23,327
would love to answer about when did counsel know. But

318
00:25:23,567 --> 00:25:26,687
unfortunately, I can't speak for council. The mayor speaks for

319
00:25:26,847 --> 00:25:30,607
council and she's not here today. So, um, but I'm

320
00:25:30,607 --> 00:25:33,887
very anxious to, uh, answer that. And I want you

321
00:25:33,967 --> 00:25:38,207
to know that, um, that was a surprise, certainly to

322
00:25:38,287 --> 00:25:40,127
all of us, but the exact date and so on

323
00:25:40,527 --> 00:25:43,567
has to rest in her hands, not, not in ours.

324
00:25:43,487 --> 00:25:47,247
Um, so, um, this is a matter of grave concern,

325
00:25:47,167 --> 00:25:51,487
as has been identified. And I believe my colleagues and

326
00:25:51,647 --> 00:25:53,567
I are going to do everything we can to make

327
00:25:53,567 --> 00:25:58,127
sure that, uh, we get to the bottom of everything.

328
00:25:58,047 --> 00:26:00,927
And, um, I look forward to working with the community

329
00:26:01,247 --> 00:26:03,807
and with staff to make sure that we do that.

330
00:26:03,727 --> 00:26:07,579
Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Hope. Uh, Councillor Ardell, I

331
00:26:07,579 --> 00:26:09,259
can see you on the big screen, but you're not

332
00:26:09,339 --> 00:26:11,419
on my small one, but did you have anything you

333
00:26:11,659 --> 00:26:14,939
wanted to, uh, add and compliment to the correspondence before

334
00:26:15,019 --> 00:26:18,387
we get emotional on the floor. Uh, thank you, Mr.

335
00:26:18,547 --> 00:26:21,107
Chair. No, I think it's been covered by everybody. I'd

336
00:26:21,187 --> 00:26:26,947
just be, be repeating my colleagues questions. Um, yes, definitely

337
00:26:28,307 --> 00:26:32,547
there, you know, we can take it further. And yeah,

338
00:26:32,547 --> 00:26:34,227
I think we're just going to have to wait to

339
00:26:34,307 --> 00:26:36,707
see what comes out of the follow - up staff

340
00:26:36,707 --> 00:26:42,707
report. And if we don't get our answers, and we

341
00:26:43,027 --> 00:26:48,707
can go further afield, I know of some outlets that

342
00:26:48,787 --> 00:26:52,707
we could go further afield with. And I think, but

343
00:26:53,267 --> 00:26:57,747
I will give the CAO the opportunity to produce, um,

344
00:26:59,187 --> 00:27:05,267
wholesome report that will answer, hopefully all of our questions,

345
00:27:05,187 --> 00:27:07,747
because, um, I believe that, you know, the five of

346
00:27:07,747 --> 00:27:11,187
us here. And we were all informed the same day.

347
00:27:11,107 --> 00:27:14,947
So that's all I can say is I know because

348
00:27:15,027 --> 00:27:19,827
we talked singly amongst ourselves, not in a quorum. And

349
00:27:20,067 --> 00:27:24,147
we were all very surprised. And, uh, we just want

350
00:27:24,067 --> 00:27:27,267
to get to the bottom of it. And, uh, you

351
00:27:27,187 --> 00:27:30,227
know, I've seen other municipalities around the province, get themselves

352
00:27:30,627 --> 00:27:32,947
in trouble. And there's been a lot of follow -

353
00:27:32,867 --> 00:27:35,987
ups. So I think I will give the CAO the

354
00:27:36,067 --> 00:27:39,827
opportunity to have that report. And then we will go

355
00:27:39,987 --> 00:27:43,027
from there. Thank you very much. Thank you, Councillor Odell.

356
00:27:43,027 --> 00:27:47,615
Councillor Porter. Go ahead. Um, yes, thank you. And through

357
00:27:47,615 --> 00:27:51,055
the chair, I have sent some semblance of emotion to

358
00:27:52,095 --> 00:27:56,335
Madam Clerk trying to locate and copy and paste the

359
00:27:56,735 --> 00:28:02,447
exact wording. She's providing, kindly providing me assistance with. Where

360
00:28:02,447 --> 00:28:05,407
I'm looking at the motion right now, um, provide a

361
00:28:05,487 --> 00:28:07,807
follow up staff report to answer, I would like each

362
00:28:08,047 --> 00:28:14,916
and every question. I think, um, CEO Smith him responding

363
00:28:14,996 --> 00:28:18,596
to Mr. Milne really set a good framework for that.

364
00:28:18,516 --> 00:28:26,160
Each question is followed by an answer. Okay. Madam Clerk.

365
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:31,840
Thank you, Mr. Chair. So, uh, when Mr. Milne came

366
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:35,360
to council on the 26, 27th of January, just forget

367
00:28:35,360 --> 00:28:37,760
the date. It was a similar motion. If you'd like

368
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:42,492
the questions, um, itemized, I can certainly do that. Yes,

369
00:28:42,412 --> 00:28:43,932
please. Thank you. Okay. I'll just be a moment. Thank

370
00:28:43,932 --> 00:28:46,812
you. Do we want to take a few moments, Madam

371
00:28:46,812 --> 00:28:50,503
Clerk. It'll just take me a minute. Oh, okay. Just

372
00:28:50,663 --> 00:28:57,170
a moment. Okay. Through the chair, Madam Clerk, I did

373
00:28:57,490 --> 00:28:59,010
cut and piss up for you in an email. Thank

374
00:28:59,010 --> 00:29:00,920
you. Thank you.

375
00:29:30,242 --> 00:29:34,024
I'd like to second that motion. I need my microphone

376
00:29:34,024 --> 00:29:37,304
to stop turning off on me. That would be first.

377
00:29:37,224 --> 00:29:39,864
Um, okay. So the motion reads move by council reporter

378
00:29:40,104 --> 00:29:42,344
and seconded by counselor hope that council, the talent blue

379
00:29:42,424 --> 00:29:46,184
mountains received for information, the January 29th, 2026 correspondence of

380
00:29:46,824 --> 00:29:51,304
Jim Torrance, Lu Mount Ray Pairs Association regarding agenda item

381
00:29:52,104 --> 00:29:56,024
B 4. 1 Craig Leaf SLS Mill Street SPS and

382
00:29:56,424 --> 00:29:59,464
Bay Gray Street linear works. And that council directs I

383
00:29:59,464 --> 00:30:01,224
have to provide a follow - up staff report to

384
00:30:01,384 --> 00:30:05,224
answer all questions, post in the January 29th, 2026 correspondence

385
00:30:05,224 --> 00:30:09,949
of Jim Torrance. Blue Mountain Raper Association as follows. One,

386
00:30:09,869 --> 00:30:13,949
what are the critical learnings regarding financial oversight project management

387
00:30:14,269 --> 00:30:18,232
discipline and timely communications and reporting. How and when will

388
00:30:18,312 --> 00:30:21,945
these be implemented. Number two, do counsel and staff leadership

389
00:30:22,265 --> 00:30:26,665
have confidence in our current asset management plan, how do,

390
00:30:26,585 --> 00:30:30,585
how the town will prioritize upgrades and replacements of other

391
00:30:31,065 --> 00:30:34,585
major infrastructure and have a clear picture of what this

392
00:30:34,585 --> 00:30:38,327
means for our long - term finances. Three, will an

393
00:30:38,327 --> 00:30:43,778
external audit also be conducted. So that we get an

394
00:30:43,938 --> 00:30:47,883
unvarnished evaluation and further recommendations for the future. Four. But

395
00:30:47,883 --> 00:30:51,083
the biggest question maybe can a town this size of

396
00:30:51,563 --> 00:30:55,563
Blue Mountains responsibly and effectively manage these kinds of large

397
00:30:56,123 --> 00:31:00,376
infrastructure projects. Okay. Set the motion you are moving counselor

398
00:31:00,536 --> 00:31:05,795
porter. Uh, yes. Through the chair, yes. However, um, when

399
00:31:05,875 --> 00:31:08,355
you see it up here, uh, what I'm thinking is

400
00:31:08,595 --> 00:31:13,395
we have a number of report deadlines in the, in

401
00:31:13,875 --> 00:31:18,035
the emotion that was passed on December 15th, that these

402
00:31:18,835 --> 00:31:22,355
questions would nicely fit into. So I would like some

403
00:31:22,675 --> 00:31:26,515
wording in the fact that these questions be answered. Some

404
00:31:26,515 --> 00:31:30,115
of them should come in the February 24th reports. Others

405
00:31:30,195 --> 00:31:34,115
will come in finance so that they reference back to

406
00:31:34,115 --> 00:31:38,115
the appropriate report out of future date from the December

407
00:31:38,515 --> 00:31:44,758
15th motion. I'm not sure. If. Do you need any

408
00:31:44,838 --> 00:31:48,678
more information, Madam Clerk? It's just really tying it back.

409
00:31:48,598 --> 00:31:51,638
As I think it's important that these questions be embedded

410
00:31:51,798 --> 00:31:54,518
in the appropriate reports as opposed to being a standalone.

411
00:31:58,343 --> 00:32:01,045
Back. There. Uh, thank you, Mr. Chair. Just looking at

412
00:32:01,125 --> 00:32:04,565
the timeline. So the recommendations from today's meeting will be

413
00:32:04,565 --> 00:32:11,710
considered at the February 17th Council meeting. The February 23rd

414
00:32:12,350 --> 00:32:15,310
meeting is 23rd and 24th committee. The whole meetings. That's

415
00:32:15,390 --> 00:32:19,230
when the next reports are due. Um, so by the

416
00:32:19,150 --> 00:32:23,390
time this motion is confirmed by council, the February 23rd

417
00:32:23,390 --> 00:32:27,950
and 24th reports will have been written and posted to

418
00:32:27,950 --> 00:32:31,550
the website. So a staff have this information. I'm not

419
00:32:31,550 --> 00:32:35,310
certain that it'll be available and included in those February

420
00:32:35,710 --> 00:32:40,190
23rd, 24th committee of the whole reports. But staff are

421
00:32:40,190 --> 00:32:43,950
provided staffer here and are watching and are listening. So

422
00:32:44,190 --> 00:32:47,550
if you want to embed it into the motion, we

423
00:32:47,550 --> 00:32:49,793
can. But I don't want to speak for staff as

424
00:32:49,953 --> 00:32:52,833
to whether, um, they will have the time to embed

425
00:32:52,993 --> 00:32:56,513
this into, uh, that report. I believe CAO has something

426
00:32:56,593 --> 00:32:58,193
here. Thank you, Madam Clerk. I'm going to lean on

427
00:32:58,673 --> 00:33:04,045
CAO Smith. Yes, through the chair, what we can do,

428
00:33:03,965 --> 00:33:09,325
and, uh, maybe keeping the resolution as written right now,

429
00:33:09,245 --> 00:33:11,005
we could take it away to see how that may

430
00:33:11,165 --> 00:33:13,245
fit in terms of a follow - up report or

431
00:33:13,245 --> 00:33:16,365
which report that would, uh, ideally fit within the context

432
00:33:16,525 --> 00:33:22,045
of the previous resolution that was put forward regarding the

433
00:33:22,125 --> 00:33:24,525
affected projects. So, uh, and then we can see whether

434
00:33:24,605 --> 00:33:28,125
we need some more additional time, uh, these questions I

435
00:33:28,205 --> 00:33:31,405
anticipate to be, um, too difficult in terms of providing

436
00:33:31,725 --> 00:33:34,925
response back at a, at a, uh, council meeting at

437
00:33:35,165 --> 00:33:37,405
an early point of time. So thank you. Thank you

438
00:33:37,725 --> 00:33:41,565
CEO Smith. Follow up. Yes. Uh, through the chair. So

439
00:33:41,645 --> 00:33:45,085
the would appear from the original motion back in December,

440
00:33:45,005 --> 00:33:48,205
the latest report dates are March 16th and 17th. So

441
00:33:48,285 --> 00:33:50,605
I think if we put that these are all done

442
00:33:50,605 --> 00:33:53,165
by March 16th and it would make sure that everything

443
00:33:53,405 --> 00:33:56,445
comes together at one end point because you don't want

444
00:33:56,605 --> 00:34:00,156
it coming in dribbles and drops. Does that work CEO

445
00:34:00,236 --> 00:34:08,236
Smith. Yes. That would work. Okay. Madam Clerk. Thank you

446
00:34:08,636 --> 00:34:11,036
for that information. My apologies. I was thinking that was

447
00:34:11,036 --> 00:34:13,836
coming to the next committee of the whole cycle. So

448
00:34:14,156 --> 00:34:17,322
I can certainly add that. Okay. We'll just wait a

449
00:34:17,242 --> 00:34:19,562
moment. I'll add a line at the very, very end.

450
00:34:25,713 --> 00:34:27,553
Did you have something to follow up CEO Smith? I

451
00:34:27,553 --> 00:34:36,076
just see your hand. No. Okay. And. I, so Councillor

452
00:34:36,156 --> 00:34:40,185
Porter, was that. Once we get the last of the

453
00:34:40,265 --> 00:34:44,745
dates in there, I did see Councillor Ardell. I did

454
00:34:44,745 --> 00:34:47,625
see your hand. So did you have something to add

455
00:34:48,105 --> 00:34:52,345
cancer reporter? Um, it's my hand still. Yes. You're here.

456
00:34:52,505 --> 00:34:55,225
Okay. No, that's all right. Councillor, thank you. Council reporter.

457
00:34:55,145 --> 00:34:58,505
Councillor Odell. Go ahead. Uh, yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

458
00:34:58,425 --> 00:35:01,305
And yes, I was going to say the date, um,

459
00:35:01,545 --> 00:35:03,945
and I had recalled a date in March, but I

460
00:35:03,865 --> 00:35:07,705
couldn't remember that date. And the clerk is correct. This

461
00:35:07,785 --> 00:35:12,345
will be coming to February 17th meeting. And then there

462
00:35:12,505 --> 00:35:17,305
is another report. And I hope that all staff involved

463
00:35:17,385 --> 00:35:20,505
in this will have something a little bit different by

464
00:35:21,065 --> 00:35:23,385
March. And that, and that's what I wanted to say

465
00:35:24,745 --> 00:35:26,825
that we did have a march state. And I, and

466
00:35:26,905 --> 00:35:28,825
I still can't remember what it was the next meeting

467
00:35:29,065 --> 00:35:31,865
in March. And I think then we should have a

468
00:35:31,945 --> 00:35:38,505
very wholesome discussion because everything will hopefully have, um, opened

469
00:35:38,585 --> 00:35:44,585
up some doorways. And if there's some, uh, legal issues

470
00:35:44,745 --> 00:35:47,385
that can't be told and they need to seek out

471
00:35:47,545 --> 00:35:50,985
what that is or getting in touch with other avenues

472
00:35:51,945 --> 00:35:56,105
and hopefully at that time March 16th, yeah, um, I

473
00:35:56,105 --> 00:36:00,585
think everything will be answered. That's all I have to

474
00:36:00,585 --> 00:36:03,705
say. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Adele. Okay. So I've

475
00:36:03,705 --> 00:36:06,345
read the motion out loud and then the last, uh,

476
00:36:06,585 --> 00:36:09,385
paragraph says, and that the above information be included in

477
00:36:09,385 --> 00:36:11,945
the staff report to be provided at the March 16,

478
00:36:11,945 --> 00:36:14,425
2026 committee of the whole meeting. It's that appropriate to

479
00:36:14,425 --> 00:36:20,306
the mover. Yeah. Since through the chair, since one of

480
00:36:20,386 --> 00:36:25,906
the motions said in the December 15th motion one, um,

481
00:36:26,466 --> 00:36:31,264
meeting date was the 17th. Say slash because there may

482
00:36:31,264 --> 00:36:34,704
be an appropriateness. So just look steam slash 17. So

483
00:36:35,264 --> 00:36:37,744
cause it's important. I think it's really important that the

484
00:36:37,904 --> 00:36:42,714
relevant information fits in the relevant report. Correct. So I

485
00:36:42,794 --> 00:36:45,194
believe Madam Clerk is just going to adjust that to

486
00:36:45,194 --> 00:36:52,188
say. 16 slash 17. This is secondary. Oh yeah. Yes.

487
00:36:52,108 --> 00:36:55,708
But I do want to add that, um, there's some

488
00:36:55,708 --> 00:36:58,508
questions that I think could be answered as expeditiously as

489
00:36:58,668 --> 00:37:01,708
possible on the 24th. We look forward to that. There's

490
00:37:01,708 --> 00:37:03,868
an opportunity to answer some of these questions or start

491
00:37:04,268 --> 00:37:08,624
to. Thank you. Okay. Thank you, Councillor Hope. Okay. I

492
00:37:08,704 --> 00:37:11,504
don't see any further hands from any of the other

493
00:37:11,904 --> 00:37:14,624
members of the committee. So, uh, Madam Clerk, you may

494
00:37:14,704 --> 00:37:24,682
call that vote, please. I'll

495
00:37:24,762 --> 00:37:32,208
just be a moment here, Mr. Chair. The vote is

496
00:37:32,208 --> 00:37:37,845
open. I would like to vote in the affirmative. It

497
00:37:38,005 --> 00:37:40,085
has not come up on my screen, Madam Clerk. Thank

498
00:37:40,085 --> 00:37:48,090
you, Mr. Chair. The vote is closed. That vote is

499
00:37:48,170 --> 00:37:52,170
carried with all five members present voting in the affirmative.

500
00:37:52,090 --> 00:37:54,650
So now we will move to item B 4. 1

501
00:37:54,970 --> 00:37:58,547
Craig Leith SLS Mill Street SPS. And it should say

502
00:37:59,747 --> 00:38:04,370
bay gray, not by gray. Street linear works. Financial reporting

503
00:38:05,250 --> 00:38:09,010
and project cost update OPS. 26. 008, unless I've got

504
00:38:09,890 --> 00:38:15,970
an incorrect version. You're correct. Titan. I should say bay.

505
00:38:15,890 --> 00:38:22,170
Yes. I'm going to turn it over to. Director Pacheco.

506
00:38:23,014 --> 00:38:23,334
You have the floor.

507
00:38:35,005 --> 00:38:37,325
So good morning through the chair. Oh, I got some

508
00:38:37,405 --> 00:38:37,565
feedback.

509
00:38:48,061 --> 00:38:50,465
Okay. Thank you. So I threw the chair. My name

510
00:38:50,465 --> 00:38:52,945
is Al Pacheco. I'm the director of operations here at

511
00:38:52,945 --> 00:38:54,545
the town of the Blue Mountains with me. I have

512
00:38:55,265 --> 00:38:57,425
proofread desire and manager of capital projects. And I have

513
00:38:57,825 --> 00:39:02,305
Michael Campbell, who is our senior engineer coordinator who's online.

514
00:39:03,258 --> 00:39:05,818
Uh, this report really is about closing loop on council's

515
00:39:05,818 --> 00:39:09,360
direction to bring financial updates. Uh, for the Craig Leithation

516
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:12,480
Bay Street, Gray Street linear works. And the military pumping

517
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:16,160
station. So this is the first of, uh, many quarterly

518
00:39:16,240 --> 00:39:19,511
updates as it relates to the project. Although these projects

519
00:39:19,751 --> 00:39:23,351
were bundled for construction efficiency. Council asked that we, uh,

520
00:39:23,831 --> 00:39:27,539
clearly separate the report. The reports financials for each component.

521
00:39:27,539 --> 00:39:31,139
This report does not exactly that. It provides a clear

522
00:39:31,299 --> 00:39:34,179
snapshot of where we are today, how much we've spent,

523
00:39:34,099 --> 00:39:38,339
what's been committed, and what remains available across engineering construction.

524
00:39:38,259 --> 00:39:44,419
And the utility relocating costs. The overall project, um, budget

525
00:39:44,419 --> 00:39:51,059
was 53. 5 million dollar given where we are in

526
00:39:51,219 --> 00:39:54,418
construction. The engineering where we are in construction. The engine

527
00:39:54,578 --> 00:39:57,618
work is well underwear. All construction spending, um, of the

528
00:39:57,778 --> 00:40:01,698
lift station and bay street are still near your leaf

529
00:40:01,778 --> 00:40:05,538
phases with military pulmonization. Not yet having been tendered. So

530
00:40:05,698 --> 00:40:11,877
those costs are still based on pretender estimates. This report

531
00:40:12,197 --> 00:40:14,517
sets out a framework of how, uh, staff will be

532
00:40:14,517 --> 00:40:18,757
also providing quarterly reports through each quarter at the end

533
00:40:18,757 --> 00:40:24,437
of each quarter. Um, again, this, um, this will be

534
00:40:24,437 --> 00:40:26,757
for the life of this project starting to get an

535
00:40:26,677 --> 00:40:30,402
idea of quarter, the first quarter of 2026. As well

536
00:40:30,402 --> 00:40:33,842
as finalizing the year end accounting, um, there are some

537
00:40:33,842 --> 00:40:38,322
numbers in 2025 that may slip slightly, uh, but the

538
00:40:38,402 --> 00:40:41,122
report gets counsel solid baseline of where we are at.

539
00:40:42,150 --> 00:40:45,670
So if I could slowly go through the engineering and

540
00:40:45,670 --> 00:40:48,390
maybe go through some of the costing or where we're

541
00:40:48,390 --> 00:40:51,590
at with the project. So for engineering, the two tables.

542
00:40:51,510 --> 00:40:54,870
The first table here represents the engineering budget where the

543
00:40:54,950 --> 00:40:59,750
engineering budget is a budget is the proved budget where

544
00:40:59,830 --> 00:41:03,110
the, the second line there is the committed funds which

545
00:41:03,110 --> 00:41:07,350
are what the commitments are with the engineering and consulting

546
00:41:07,750 --> 00:41:12,310
firm for this project as Councilman Public will see that

547
00:41:12,470 --> 00:41:15,990
the, uh, amount spent is where we're at with, with

548
00:41:16,630 --> 00:41:20,870
current spend on engineering, uh, the number below that is

549
00:41:21,350 --> 00:41:25,110
what's remaining within the, within the, uh, that, um, that

550
00:41:25,270 --> 00:41:28,630
PO. So we've to date, um, we've spent 47 percent

551
00:41:28,710 --> 00:41:33,910
of the committed values and we have 52 percent, uh,

552
00:41:34,230 --> 00:41:41,582
remaining. Frequent scroll down for the next table. This table

553
00:41:41,822 --> 00:41:45,502
here represents sort of, well, the engineering budget was consolidated

554
00:41:45,902 --> 00:41:50,542
into one budget, uh, here we're showing where the costs

555
00:41:50,622 --> 00:41:54,382
are for the engineering costs for the specific projects. So

556
00:41:55,182 --> 00:41:57,742
if we look at the Craig Lee Cliff station, uh,

557
00:41:57,982 --> 00:42:00,862
we've spent, uh, spent 14 percent of the budget or

558
00:42:01,102 --> 00:42:09,262
361, we've spent 330, 000 non engineering. And, um, the

559
00:42:09,502 --> 00:42:19,332
Bay Street, Gray Street 484. 1. 176 of money

560
00:42:19,492 --> 00:42:24,212
spent or 47 percent of the budget. While the engineering

561
00:42:24,372 --> 00:42:28,612
budget, um, consists of both the design. It also, uh,

562
00:42:29,012 --> 00:42:33,801
it also includes the site inspection. And the site inspection

563
00:42:33,961 --> 00:42:37,801
of contract administration come on. So that the 54 or

564
00:42:37,961 --> 00:42:41,721
53 percent will be used likely for, for that amount.

565
00:42:47,386 --> 00:42:49,706
If you can scroll down, uh, as it relates to

566
00:42:49,946 --> 00:42:54,586
the Craig leaf station separated the contract value. So if

567
00:42:54,666 --> 00:42:57,786
we look at the contracted amount, we have, um, 8.

568
00:42:58,026 --> 00:43:02,666
477 million dollars to date we spent 363, 000 dollars

569
00:43:04,586 --> 00:43:08,986
on the project, leaving us, um, 8. 1 million dollars

570
00:43:09,226 --> 00:43:15,946
of 96 percentiles that has been, that has not been

571
00:43:15,946 --> 00:43:20,906
spent. Um, leaving the interval project that.

572
00:43:26,172 --> 00:43:30,575
We scroll down to the basement mil street. Again, the

573
00:43:30,735 --> 00:43:35,855
committed, the committed funds for this contract, uh, with the

574
00:43:36,015 --> 00:43:43,615
construction contractor is 17. 927 million dollars. We've spent, uh,

575
00:43:44,415 --> 00:43:46,975
not to date, but to December 31st or the last

576
00:43:47,135 --> 00:43:50,415
draw was 1. 3 million dollars leaving us with 60

577
00:43:50,575 --> 00:43:54,495
million dollars left or roughly 93 percent of the project

578
00:43:54,735 --> 00:43:58,802
budget. There is a contingency on that, uh, on that,

579
00:43:58,722 --> 00:44:02,642
um, contract of 2. 4 million dollars and haven't spent,

580
00:44:02,562 --> 00:44:07,122
uh, contingency. So with that remaining, uh, there's a remaining

581
00:44:07,282 --> 00:44:12,322
budget of 19. 19. 03 million dollars or 94 million

582
00:44:12,562 --> 00:44:17,468
dollars or 94 percent. Of the projects still unspent are

583
00:44:17,468 --> 00:44:22,127
available. So again, with Mail Street, we have intended the

584
00:44:22,127 --> 00:44:26,367
work. The 19. 4, 19 point, I think 94 million

585
00:44:27,167 --> 00:44:32,287
is the pretender, um, pretender estimates. So once, once we

586
00:44:32,847 --> 00:44:35,007
tender the work, we can provide some updates as to

587
00:44:35,567 --> 00:44:39,407
what they committed amounts were, um, provide some updates as

588
00:44:39,567 --> 00:44:46,727
the contract is issued. In reference to the December, I

589
00:44:46,727 --> 00:44:50,807
think it was 15th report. Part of the unsculpt work

590
00:44:51,047 --> 00:44:56,167
in the original budget was the utility relocation. So again,

591
00:44:56,487 --> 00:44:58,727
here what I've done is I've tried to demonstrate what

592
00:44:58,887 --> 00:45:02,567
we've spent as far as, uh, our utility relocation miscellaneous

593
00:45:02,727 --> 00:45:05,687
items throughout this project while they're not tied to the

594
00:45:06,087 --> 00:45:09,767
any of the contract amounts with the contractors. They're part

595
00:45:09,767 --> 00:45:13,762
of the overall budget. So, uh, going through here, we

596
00:45:13,922 --> 00:45:16,082
can see that there are some, uh, utility work that

597
00:45:16,242 --> 00:45:19,282
has been completed. We have some agreements in place. There's

598
00:45:19,362 --> 00:45:24,882
still some outstanding, um, simultaning utility work underway and throughout

599
00:45:25,122 --> 00:45:29,522
the project and throughout the quarters will provide updates as

600
00:45:29,842 --> 00:45:35,202
it relates to the overall budget spent. If you scroll

601
00:45:35,282 --> 00:45:41,202
down, um, currently the pre - HST funding amount for

602
00:45:41,202 --> 00:45:44,562
this was 900, 000 dollars You see the 915. This

603
00:45:44,562 --> 00:45:48,242
represents, uh, with the non - refundable HST. So if

604
00:45:48,162 --> 00:45:49,762
we scroll down and what I aim to do here

605
00:45:50,722 --> 00:45:53,442
at this, uh, on this, um, table here below is

606
00:45:53,842 --> 00:45:57,122
trying to consolidate all the works here. So it provides,

607
00:45:57,042 --> 00:46:01,122
um, provides some clarity as to what's been spent, what

608
00:46:01,522 --> 00:46:05,842
the, uh, committed amounts are what's available. And the overall

609
00:46:06,002 --> 00:46:10,322
budget. So if we go through the, um, if we

610
00:46:10,322 --> 00:46:14,082
go through the stable, the first line here, engineering committed

611
00:46:14,162 --> 00:46:17,442
amounts, this is, this is the contract value with our

612
00:46:17,602 --> 00:46:20,962
consultant, not the budget. So not to confuse it to.

613
00:46:20,882 --> 00:46:23,442
So this is what we've spent, uh, we have 47

614
00:46:24,002 --> 00:46:28,846
percent spent leaving us with 53, uh, remaining. Next is

615
00:46:29,086 --> 00:46:32,766
a utility in miscellaneous relocation. As mentioned, we have 900,

616
00:46:32,846 --> 00:46:35,406
000 dollars budget for this amount with the HS non

617
00:46:35,566 --> 00:46:39,806
refundable HST or non - recoverable HSD. Brings this value

618
00:46:40,286 --> 00:46:49,086
to 915, 840. To date, we spent 84, 000 and

619
00:46:49,086 --> 00:46:57,037
change. The Craig Leith sewage lift station. Again, the cost,

620
00:46:57,037 --> 00:47:01,517
the PO mount is 8. 977 million dollars. If we

621
00:47:01,517 --> 00:47:05,837
look at the non - recoverable HST brings that total

622
00:47:05,917 --> 00:47:11,037
up to 9. 1 million dollars to date, we've spent,

623
00:47:10,957 --> 00:47:15,862
um, three, uh, 363, 000 dollars. Similar with a Bay

624
00:47:15,862 --> 00:47:20,102
Street. The numbers here are represented on the above tables.

625
00:47:20,022 --> 00:47:24,102
So this just summarizes where we, we have 20 million

626
00:47:24,262 --> 00:47:28,159
dollars. Of the cost excluded in HST. We've spent to

627
00:47:28,159 --> 00:47:32,639
date 1. 3 million dollars roughly six percent. And as

628
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:35,439
you'll note here with the Mill Street, Sushliv Station, uh,

629
00:47:35,839 --> 00:47:38,959
the numbers that representing here are the pretender estimates. So

630
00:47:39,039 --> 00:47:40,799
we have an issue that tender and we have an

631
00:47:40,799 --> 00:47:42,879
award of the contract. Well, this is just based on

632
00:47:43,199 --> 00:47:49,819
the current, um, issue for tender estimates. With that, the

633
00:47:49,899 --> 00:47:53,819
overall budget of the, again, rounding this up, the overall,

634
00:47:53,739 --> 00:47:59,259
um, budget for this, for this project is 53. 563

635
00:47:59,579 --> 00:48:03,659
million dollars. Again, these numbers are, representative of the figures

636
00:48:03,819 --> 00:48:06,459
that were shown on the December 15th committee of the

637
00:48:06,539 --> 00:48:08,859
whole meeting. So with that, if there is any other

638
00:48:09,179 --> 00:48:14,960
questions, um, we'll leave it to the chair. Thank you,

639
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:18,400
director. For we go to the committee, did director of

640
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:20,880
finance when I had anything along those lines for the

641
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:24,378
financial aspects. No, we're good. Okay. So I will look

642
00:48:24,378 --> 00:48:27,658
to members of the committee for the questions retaining to

643
00:48:27,658 --> 00:48:36,748
this update. Councillor reporter. Go ahead. Yes.

644
00:48:38,526 --> 00:48:44,315
Thank you. And through the chair. So since. I spent

645
00:48:44,395 --> 00:48:47,195
a lot of time crafting the motion that has resulted

646
00:48:47,755 --> 00:48:51,275
along with others and others in the community, which is

647
00:48:51,675 --> 00:48:55,275
resulted in the report today, um, I do have a

648
00:48:55,275 --> 00:48:58,964
number of questions. So I hope we either I can

649
00:48:59,204 --> 00:49:01,284
say them all or I get a few rounds at

650
00:49:01,444 --> 00:49:09,072
this. So my questions are to staff. So I'm really

651
00:49:09,072 --> 00:49:12,192
not sure why this was called a fulsome report. That

652
00:49:12,192 --> 00:49:15,581
is due February 24th. So I'm hoping this is an

653
00:49:15,661 --> 00:49:22,125
it. The motion did not ask for a snapshot. It

654
00:49:22,205 --> 00:49:26,385
asked for throughout the project. That's what it was. I

655
00:49:26,545 --> 00:49:31,222
have found, um, discrepancies. In the budget. This report goes

656
00:49:31,302 --> 00:49:33,942
back to it. It was first, the first element of

657
00:49:34,022 --> 00:49:40,465
this bundled report was approved in the 2021 budget. And

658
00:49:40,625 --> 00:49:44,978
they came with, um. And while it was before your

659
00:49:45,138 --> 00:49:49,935
time, Mr. Pachenko, um. This is project resides in your

660
00:49:49,935 --> 00:49:55,024
area. In May 22, 2023 was the first escalation. Then

661
00:49:55,104 --> 00:50:02,464
we had another one in April 2023, August, 2023, um,

662
00:50:02,944 --> 00:50:07,005
where there was two. And I have a difference of

663
00:50:07,245 --> 00:50:10,125
374, 000 dollars. So I will be asking for that

664
00:50:10,205 --> 00:50:13,565
to be accounted for. Cause when I've done, um, the

665
00:50:13,805 --> 00:50:23,356
math, I just don't understand that. So and. The financials

666
00:50:23,516 --> 00:50:26,796
here really don't address. There isn't how we got to

667
00:50:27,036 --> 00:50:30,351
where we are. It doesn't address the cost escalation. It

668
00:50:30,511 --> 00:50:33,071
gives, as you have said, a couple of times in

669
00:50:33,071 --> 00:50:38,720
the report, a clear snapshot. The purpose of the motion

670
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:42,320
in its entirety was to figure out how we ended

671
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:46,216
up 19 million in the whole. So I have some

672
00:50:46,696 --> 00:50:49,976
concerns. I also have some concerns that we have no

673
00:50:50,056 --> 00:50:53,736
idea with the financials associated with this project, which this

674
00:50:53,976 --> 00:50:58,456
report was to do. The financial reporting and project cost

675
00:50:58,856 --> 00:51:03,915
update. Where the Hughes funding fits in. And there was

676
00:51:03,915 --> 00:51:08,294
a report in October. While it was prepared by finance,

677
00:51:08,214 --> 00:51:11,414
I mean finance, you know, it was there. But the

678
00:51:11,494 --> 00:51:15,254
Hughes funding supports some of the project funds. And I

679
00:51:15,174 --> 00:51:18,454
don't see how that fits in. Because when you factor

680
00:51:18,534 --> 00:51:22,454
in the amounts, the fuse funding was to provide based

681
00:51:22,454 --> 00:51:26,134
on percentage of completion of the project. The town has

682
00:51:26,294 --> 00:51:30,307
spent less. Because they're two separate funding streams and they're

683
00:51:30,387 --> 00:51:36,902
not identified. Okay. Just we've got, I've heard two questions

684
00:51:37,142 --> 00:51:39,702
so far. I've heard your three, your discrepancy of 300

685
00:51:39,862 --> 00:51:42,629
and something thousand. And then I've heard about the hues

686
00:51:42,709 --> 00:51:46,469
funding. And Council supporter. Of course, let's have you have

687
00:51:46,549 --> 00:51:48,789
your ask your questions, but just so we can keep

688
00:51:48,869 --> 00:51:52,869
up. I would like to refer over to either director

689
00:51:52,869 --> 00:51:58,149
Pacheco or finance for, as that description that discrepancy been

690
00:51:58,229 --> 00:52:00,839
forwarded. I'm not sure what it is. Go ahead. So

691
00:52:01,319 --> 00:52:03,159
food chair to Council Podry. I believe on the August

692
00:52:04,199 --> 00:52:08,759
23rd report. There is an escalation of 600, 000 dollars,

693
00:52:08,679 --> 00:52:12,039
but that 600, 000 dollars is for a different project.

694
00:52:12,279 --> 00:52:15,559
It's for the outfall project and not for the engineering

695
00:52:16,119 --> 00:52:18,999
for this project. So I believe that I think the

696
00:52:19,159 --> 00:52:22,519
discrepancy you're looking at is that that project is a

697
00:52:22,599 --> 00:52:27,639
separate project. So, um, again, I think there's, there's a

698
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:32,052
discrepancy there. Um, again, as it relates, go ahead. I'd

699
00:52:31,972 --> 00:52:34,714
just like to have a follow up then. So if

700
00:52:35,034 --> 00:52:37,434
that is true and you deduct the 600 and the

701
00:52:37,434 --> 00:52:43,769
275 is the 2. 775 million is still incorrect. And

702
00:52:43,769 --> 00:52:47,049
through the chair, if we look at the report here,

703
00:52:46,969 --> 00:52:50,409
so the actual budget amount, it accounts for the 2.

704
00:52:50,569 --> 00:52:57,049
275, from the engineering budget and the committed value. So

705
00:52:57,449 --> 00:53:03,449
while the engineer, the contract value is 2. 49. The

706
00:53:03,449 --> 00:53:08,489
actual budget. If you look at the 2. 77500, 000.

707
00:53:08,409 --> 00:53:11,449
If you look at that report, we were at 2.

708
00:53:11,609 --> 00:53:14,569
5, 2. 5 thousand. And then we asked for an

709
00:53:14,569 --> 00:53:17,529
additional, I believe it was 160, 000. So again, I

710
00:53:17,769 --> 00:53:21,129
can come back. I can provide a clear explanation, but

711
00:53:21,289 --> 00:53:26,729
again, I think there was, um, an error on that

712
00:53:26,969 --> 00:53:30,329
component of the engineering. So it's, it was actually, uh,

713
00:53:30,969 --> 00:53:32,969
what you're referencing is, is for the LFR project, not

714
00:53:33,129 --> 00:53:38,649
for the, uh, the engineering of the mill street foreigner.

715
00:53:38,569 --> 00:53:41,849
Okay. Through the chair, I can accept that. Um, but

716
00:53:42,089 --> 00:53:47,529
if you take then the 3. 15, 3. 1 million

717
00:53:47,929 --> 00:53:52,194
minus 600. You don't get 2. 7. So I think

718
00:53:52,434 --> 00:53:56,114
I would like that clarified because it's not clear. And

719
00:53:56,114 --> 00:53:59,634
if I may just continue with that theme, the report

720
00:53:59,874 --> 00:54:03,394
required the financials to be reported out on the project

721
00:54:03,714 --> 00:54:08,114
as a whole and individually. Therefore, it wasn't, I think

722
00:54:08,114 --> 00:54:12,674
it's a reasonable expectation that the tables are the same.

723
00:54:14,034 --> 00:54:18,034
And they have different lines. There's holes. There's places where

724
00:54:18,434 --> 00:54:21,314
if the blank, is that because it's not applicable or

725
00:54:21,314 --> 00:54:24,914
the number, like it just bakes the question, why is

726
00:54:25,074 --> 00:54:28,114
it blank? So I'd like to see the tables identical.

727
00:54:28,034 --> 00:54:31,577
I think they should mirror each other. Okay. And then

728
00:54:32,377 --> 00:54:36,217
we go ahead. I see Mr. DeSai as well. Yeah.

729
00:54:36,297 --> 00:54:39,017
Go ahead. So again, I welcome any, any feedback as

730
00:54:39,097 --> 00:54:42,377
far as, uh, the layout and council would want to

731
00:54:42,377 --> 00:54:47,495
see this report again. The intent today was provided, I

732
00:54:47,495 --> 00:54:51,095
guess snapshot or a summary, we're with a project where

733
00:54:51,095 --> 00:54:55,655
we spent the money. Again, um, if they're, if there's

734
00:54:55,655 --> 00:54:57,415
anything else that council would like to see in these

735
00:54:57,415 --> 00:55:02,375
report, again, originally had contemplating putting the huge funding in

736
00:55:03,255 --> 00:55:06,215
and as it relates to the financial spending. But the

737
00:55:06,375 --> 00:55:10,135
overall, the focus of this report was more, more outlining

738
00:55:10,375 --> 00:55:13,495
where we're at with the project and the project spent.

739
00:55:13,415 --> 00:55:14,695
And looking at the huge funding would be more of

740
00:55:14,775 --> 00:55:21,575
a financial update as to where the budgets, where the

741
00:55:21,575 --> 00:55:23,735
funds are coming from, how much of that will be

742
00:55:23,735 --> 00:55:28,935
through the reserves. Um, the financial reserves, the asset replacement

743
00:55:29,095 --> 00:55:32,375
reserves, uh, that's where I was looking at providing some

744
00:55:32,455 --> 00:55:36,055
more of that, um, the huge funding and correlation with,

745
00:55:36,215 --> 00:55:45,946
with the spending. Mr. Desai, yeah. To the chair.

746
00:55:46,340 --> 00:55:51,134
Sorry my la. Through the chair. My apologies, my laptop

747
00:55:51,694 --> 00:55:52,974
just went off on me, but I have the answer

748
00:55:53,134 --> 00:55:56,094
for that question. I have the trail from 2023 to

749
00:55:56,974 --> 00:56:00,734
2025 how the two point, the two million dollars vended

750
00:56:00,814 --> 00:56:06,334
to 2. 7250 million dollars. So I just, once it

751
00:56:06,334 --> 00:56:09,087
gets on, I can ask that question. My apologies. Okay.

752
00:56:09,167 --> 00:56:15,030
Thank you. I'll look for your hand. Continue. Is around

753
00:56:15,830 --> 00:56:20,950
the motion asked for, um, the financial, report out throughout

754
00:56:21,110 --> 00:56:25,430
the project delivery time period. So I'm still, I don't

755
00:56:25,430 --> 00:56:27,830
understand why we received a snapshot because it doesn't really

756
00:56:28,790 --> 00:56:32,790
outline how we ended up 19 million in the hole.

757
00:56:32,710 --> 00:56:38,391
So I can just leave that. And it would be

758
00:56:38,711 --> 00:56:42,231
appreciated to have the hues funding because it is part

759
00:56:42,311 --> 00:56:46,631
of the finance. It's funding a law for law. And

760
00:56:46,631 --> 00:56:48,951
repeatedly, we've been told that the project needed to go

761
00:56:49,431 --> 00:56:51,831
because we would lose the huge funding. So the hues

762
00:56:51,831 --> 00:56:55,591
funding, um, I believe, you know, should have been included.

763
00:56:57,446 --> 00:56:59,366
And then the other thing I'd like to talk about

764
00:56:59,606 --> 00:57:02,886
is the reporting framework, which is being put forward as

765
00:57:03,206 --> 00:57:05,686
this is how it will be reported in the future.

766
00:57:05,606 --> 00:57:09,206
And I find that from a project management perspective, it

767
00:57:09,446 --> 00:57:13,792
really misses the mark. I think there needs to be

768
00:57:13,952 --> 00:57:18,017
a lot more fulsome reporting. I would expect it. I

769
00:57:18,097 --> 00:57:20,817
have, um, I did actually with my comments on this

770
00:57:21,057 --> 00:57:25,057
report to CAO include a sample. I had put together.

771
00:57:25,057 --> 00:57:28,417
I think when you have a 19 million dollar overspent

772
00:57:29,217 --> 00:57:32,177
on a project report going forward, it is important to

773
00:57:32,337 --> 00:57:36,977
tell the taxpayers and counsel. But more importantly, the taxpayers.

774
00:57:36,897 --> 00:57:39,137
What did their money do in the last three months.

775
00:57:39,852 --> 00:57:41,932
And what is the money going to do in the

776
00:57:42,092 --> 00:57:44,311
next three months that they can measure it again? Because

777
00:57:45,351 --> 00:57:49,031
they want to know because this money, we only have

778
00:57:49,271 --> 00:57:51,831
one taxpayer, whether it comes in a grant, whether it

779
00:57:51,831 --> 00:57:55,591
comes from user fees for water, the same person, they're

780
00:57:55,671 --> 00:58:01,028
always paying the bill. And I think they owed more

781
00:58:01,988 --> 00:58:05,668
than what this proposed framework is providing. And I would

782
00:58:05,668 --> 00:58:08,708
like to see a more fulsome. I want to see

783
00:58:10,068 --> 00:58:14,948
a comprehensive project reporting template, which a project manager, um,

784
00:58:15,108 --> 00:58:19,588
should be able to do on all about the money.

785
00:58:19,508 --> 00:58:21,188
And it's not just about the money. If you think

786
00:58:21,348 --> 00:58:25,828
about it, when our finance department brings forward a budget,

787
00:58:25,748 --> 00:58:30,228
an annual budget, the numbers form a very small part

788
00:58:30,308 --> 00:58:32,628
relative to the size. There's a lot of verbiage around

789
00:58:33,508 --> 00:58:36,308
what's going to happen and what's going to, what has

790
00:58:36,388 --> 00:58:39,348
been done, et cetera, et cetera. You can't just rely

791
00:58:39,348 --> 00:58:41,268
on the numbers. You're going to have to provide some

792
00:58:41,428 --> 00:58:48,925
explanation. Thank you. Okay. Councillor Maxwell. Or was Councillor Hope's

793
00:58:49,005 --> 00:58:51,907
hand, did your hand go up and down. It keeps

794
00:58:51,987 --> 00:58:55,027
doing that. I was the next after cancer reporter. Then

795
00:58:55,347 --> 00:58:57,347
that's all right with Councillor Maxwell. Take me turn now.

796
00:58:58,628 --> 00:59:05,908
Thank you. Um, so yes, I absolutely support what Councillor

797
00:59:05,988 --> 00:59:10,468
Porter is saying in terms of this report does not

798
00:59:11,028 --> 00:59:18,096
meet the moment. You know, we're in a crisis here.

799
00:59:20,126 --> 00:59:27,326
And we've got very rightfully angry public, uh, rightfully angry,

800
00:59:27,646 --> 00:59:30,446
council, a lot of disappointment here. And to have this

801
00:59:30,526 --> 00:59:34,766
report come up, um, I just don't see where it

802
00:59:36,046 --> 00:59:39,166
answers the need. And the first thing that council reporter

803
00:59:39,166 --> 00:59:43,726
said, certainly I was expecting this as well. You know,

804
00:59:43,886 --> 00:59:47,280
how did we get here. You know, how do these

805
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:49,840
estimates, which is what it seems to be, we've depended

806
00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:53,040
on estimates all along. That's my reading of this. You

807
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:54,800
know, how did we continue to do this over years

808
00:59:55,040 --> 00:59:58,960
to read these faulty estimates all the way along and

809
00:59:58,960 --> 01:00:02,880
to, um, go buy all the gates that are supposed

810
01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:06,080
to be there for project management purposes and for the

811
01:00:06,160 --> 01:00:10,640
management of any situation. So it doesn't do what it

812
01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:15,040
needs to do. Um, in terms of the template itself,

813
01:00:14,960 --> 01:00:18,800
that's sort of something that is really a little concerned

814
01:00:19,040 --> 01:00:21,680
at the moment. We need to put out the, not

815
01:00:21,840 --> 01:00:24,480
the fire, but we need to be able to, um,

816
01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:28,000
give full answers to the public, which they deserve. And

817
01:00:28,240 --> 01:00:34,380
this report did nothing. And in fact, I'm worried. Further,

818
01:00:34,300 --> 01:00:37,260
sorry to make everyone even more worried. But I'm worried

819
01:00:38,620 --> 01:00:43,020
about the fact that the Mill Street section has not

820
01:00:43,340 --> 01:00:49,168
been tendered yet. So and also I thought I heard.

821
01:00:49,088 --> 01:00:51,488
I took a note that we were still working with

822
01:00:51,808 --> 01:00:57,271
pretender estimates. So, um, I'd like to find out more

823
01:00:57,831 --> 01:01:01,671
through you, Mr. Chair about sort of three things. And

824
01:01:02,151 --> 01:01:05,191
the Mill Street, it's not tendered yet. So we don't

825
01:01:05,191 --> 01:01:07,831
actually know the final cost till we hear from, from

826
01:01:07,991 --> 01:01:13,031
the trade really. And then secondly, what estimates are we

827
01:01:13,191 --> 01:01:16,391
working on now? Because that's not clear to me. Thirdly,

828
01:01:16,791 --> 01:01:19,351
how is this affecting the timing? I mean, we've been

829
01:01:19,431 --> 01:01:22,791
told again, and we certainly saw what happened in the

830
01:01:22,871 --> 01:01:25,671
harbor. I'm not questioning for a moment that this isn't

831
01:01:25,751 --> 01:01:27,431
an emergency from the point of view that we need

832
01:01:27,991 --> 01:01:33,271
Real Street. But how is this affecting further costs? Because

833
01:01:33,591 --> 01:01:37,671
we haven't tendered yet. And what are the implications in

834
01:01:37,591 --> 01:01:40,951
the long run? So we, what I'm hearing is as

835
01:01:41,031 --> 01:01:43,271
bad as the 19 million was, we still don't seem

836
01:01:43,351 --> 01:01:45,831
to have a handle on things. So I'm wondering if

837
01:01:45,991 --> 01:01:49,031
you can give me some comfort. Thank you. So CAO

838
01:01:49,111 --> 01:01:51,351
Smiths, I see your hand. Go ahead, Sir Gail Smith.

839
01:01:53,395 --> 01:01:54,835
Through the chair, I can speak to a few different

840
01:01:55,075 --> 01:01:58,275
pieces based on both council reporters, comments and with respect

841
01:01:58,595 --> 01:02:01,235
to Councillor Hopes as well. So firstly, I think in

842
01:02:01,315 --> 01:02:05,555
relation to the report that's presented, uh, currently, and being

843
01:02:05,635 --> 01:02:08,355
that nature of interim report, I think what I'm hearing

844
01:02:08,435 --> 01:02:10,195
is well is that certainly that there is a great

845
01:02:10,355 --> 01:02:13,635
level of detail that is, uh, still expected from, from

846
01:02:13,875 --> 01:02:15,875
members of council. I will know based on the timing

847
01:02:16,115 --> 01:02:19,395
as well, uh, that we did have, uh, unfortunately director

848
01:02:19,475 --> 01:02:21,715
Quinlan did have a personal emergency to which was unable

849
01:02:21,715 --> 01:02:24,835
to, uh, to, to work with staff and providing that

850
01:02:25,075 --> 01:02:27,875
deeper dive with respect to the, the interim report. So

851
01:02:28,195 --> 01:02:31,075
it may benefit from that further review at a later

852
01:02:31,315 --> 01:02:34,755
point for that, uh, for that Folsom report. Uh, I

853
01:02:34,995 --> 01:02:36,755
also know, and maybe I would all tackle as well

854
01:02:36,835 --> 01:02:39,475
as relation to the status of the Mill Street works.

855
01:02:39,395 --> 01:02:44,515
And while this is absolutely, I think there's also a

856
01:02:44,835 --> 01:02:47,555
fear, at least a concern, uh, from my perspective, I

857
01:02:47,475 --> 01:02:50,115
know between, uh, for OP staff as well as for

858
01:02:50,115 --> 01:02:52,675
finance staff is to your point around what that number

859
01:02:52,995 --> 01:02:54,835
may be. And while we're at the point where we

860
01:02:54,915 --> 01:02:58,115
have the highest level of confidence we likely can based

861
01:02:58,035 --> 01:03:00,915
on the class assessments that have been provided. There is

862
01:03:00,915 --> 01:03:03,235
still a risk that say if Mill Street does or

863
01:03:03,315 --> 01:03:05,635
whatever does come end up coming back, that it may

864
01:03:05,715 --> 01:03:08,675
be higher than, than what was initially forecasted. So I

865
01:03:08,675 --> 01:03:10,435
know I speak a little bit in my report, but

866
01:03:11,235 --> 01:03:13,795
essentially is the basis for why we're doing this value

867
01:03:13,875 --> 01:03:17,795
engineering exercise is a risk management exercise. Yes, the risk

868
01:03:17,795 --> 01:03:22,115
to say the longer you wait in terms of tendering,

869
01:03:22,115 --> 01:03:24,595
there may be those higher costs to which a town

870
01:03:24,675 --> 01:03:28,435
may withstand. But my hope is that through this exercise,

871
01:03:28,355 --> 01:03:30,995
it does achieve two objectives and one in which is

872
01:03:31,315 --> 01:03:33,715
looking at taking deeper dives, say from even a design

873
01:03:33,955 --> 01:03:36,835
element too, if there are still significant savings that can

874
01:03:36,835 --> 01:03:39,635
be afforded to the town and undertaking this work. Uh,

875
01:03:39,715 --> 01:03:42,755
but further, uh, is also looking at from a change

876
01:03:43,075 --> 01:03:45,635
management exercise to understand just at a high level from

877
01:03:45,875 --> 01:03:49,955
a process standpoint in reflecting on this exercise, uh, what

878
01:03:50,115 --> 01:03:52,675
else can be done? Not holistically be it for the

879
01:03:52,915 --> 01:03:56,035
projects I've already been tendered or those even just other

880
01:03:56,355 --> 01:03:58,915
capital projects as well to find, you know, are there

881
01:03:58,915 --> 01:04:01,475
ways we could do things differently from a process angle

882
01:04:02,675 --> 01:04:04,915
and to use those, those lessons learned as a, as

883
01:04:04,915 --> 01:04:07,555
a big piece moving forward. So, uh, once again, I

884
01:04:07,555 --> 01:04:10,035
think there is to be a further report that will

885
01:04:10,035 --> 01:04:13,475
benefit from, I think, some level detail. And certainly we'll

886
01:04:13,475 --> 01:04:16,195
appreciate it. I think some council feedback via that resolution

887
01:04:16,595 --> 01:04:19,235
in terms of what those expectations will be. But at

888
01:04:19,235 --> 01:04:21,795
the same time, uh, we've heard loud and clear in

889
01:04:21,715 --> 01:04:24,195
terms of that, that, uh, that risk portrait that still

890
01:04:24,195 --> 01:04:26,995
exists related to the untended works. And that's why we're

891
01:04:27,075 --> 01:04:30,195
looking at, uh, we've, we've embarked on this, this value

892
01:04:30,355 --> 01:04:36,271
engineering exercise. Okay. Thank you CEO Smith director. Did you

893
01:04:36,271 --> 01:04:38,431
have a follow up as well? Thank you. So through

894
01:04:38,431 --> 01:04:40,991
the chair, I think, um, Salesmith hadn't mentioned it. I

895
01:04:40,991 --> 01:04:44,591
think the one thing that, uh, again, as far as

896
01:04:44,671 --> 01:04:48,511
the issue for the, the issue for tender estimates, again,

897
01:04:48,751 --> 01:04:51,871
the, the mill street, uh, the mill street is the

898
01:04:51,871 --> 01:04:55,071
only untenred work. Uh, so again, with a level of,

899
01:04:55,311 --> 01:05:00,991
of, um, I guess level of risk there when we

900
01:05:01,071 --> 01:05:03,871
all issue the tender and see what, what results from

901
01:05:03,951 --> 01:05:06,831
that. But as far as the, the Mill Street project

902
01:05:07,551 --> 01:05:10,351
and the Craig leaf lift station, those projects have been

903
01:05:10,591 --> 01:05:15,471
rewarded. We are under contract outside of anything major happening

904
01:05:16,271 --> 01:05:21,151
in the construction work. Those are, those are the level

905
01:05:21,151 --> 01:05:23,631
of comps that we have with as far as the

906
01:05:23,871 --> 01:05:28,831
work that's being completed there. Um, there isn't any risk.

907
01:05:28,911 --> 01:05:31,951
Again, not, not knowing what Mill Street will come in

908
01:05:32,031 --> 01:05:34,991
at. We do have a level of confidence now that

909
01:05:34,991 --> 01:05:37,471
we are at a class A estimate. And again, as

910
01:05:38,191 --> 01:05:44,831
the again, when we started with projections were very, the

911
01:05:44,991 --> 01:05:48,831
projections were very, very, um, very, very broad. And as

912
01:05:48,911 --> 01:05:51,151
we go through the design elements, as you go through

913
01:05:51,551 --> 01:05:57,151
the 30, 60, 90 percent design with the construction estimates.

914
01:05:57,071 --> 01:06:00,351
And that's, we're at 100 percentage line where the level

915
01:06:00,351 --> 01:06:09,151
of confidence, the amounts that we're estimating are substantiated through

916
01:06:10,591 --> 01:06:13,551
the design. So, um, just to provide some sort of

917
01:06:13,951 --> 01:06:19,553
relief to counselor hope. Please. Follow up. Thank you. Councillor

918
01:06:19,553 --> 01:06:27,249
King. Chair. Okay. So. I understand answers are on the

919
01:06:27,169 --> 01:06:30,129
way. And as I said, I hope Ms. Councillor Porter

920
01:06:30,209 --> 01:06:33,169
and I have indicated their answers more to the point

921
01:06:33,329 --> 01:06:36,209
coming along the way. But I want to know at

922
01:06:36,209 --> 01:06:40,766
this point. Where are we with working with estimates. In

923
01:06:40,766 --> 01:06:43,806
terms of, uh, we estimates were the reason why we

924
01:06:44,046 --> 01:06:46,606
got into this problem from what I understand correct me

925
01:06:46,766 --> 01:06:50,526
if I'm wrong. But how much of what percentage right

926
01:06:50,606 --> 01:06:54,206
now are we working on estimates and how accurate are

927
01:06:54,366 --> 01:06:59,743
they? Thank you. Director. So for the chair again, as

928
01:06:59,903 --> 01:07:04,223
it relates to estimates, the only estimate that we're working

929
01:07:04,383 --> 01:07:06,623
on right now is with Mill Street. Until that contract

930
01:07:06,783 --> 01:07:10,783
is awarded, uh, we won't know concretely what those, those

931
01:07:11,023 --> 01:07:13,903
costs are. As far as the other due projects, we,

932
01:07:13,983 --> 01:07:18,943
we have, we have, uh, they're, they're, um, they've been

933
01:07:19,023 --> 01:07:22,383
tender, meaning that there's, there's an agreement between the town

934
01:07:22,543 --> 01:07:25,743
and the contractor with the Mill Street pumping station. We

935
01:07:25,903 --> 01:07:28,703
are the class A estimate, meaning that there is through

936
01:07:28,703 --> 01:07:31,103
the design, there's been a lot of rigor put towards

937
01:07:31,183 --> 01:07:34,383
the design and the cost estimations as it relates to

938
01:07:35,423 --> 01:07:40,223
as to relates to costs of pumps and certain, certain,

939
01:07:40,143 --> 01:07:44,943
um, construction material. However, it's still up to, um, the

940
01:07:45,023 --> 01:07:48,303
market to, to, to bid on this work. But as

941
01:07:48,303 --> 01:07:53,903
far as, uh, confidence level, we're confident, we're very confident

942
01:07:54,303 --> 01:08:00,185
with the value of the 19 million dollars. And what

943
01:08:00,185 --> 01:08:04,185
I would say is again, just, um, uh, anecdotally, uh,

944
01:08:04,585 --> 01:08:08,265
with our outfall project, uh, issue for tender for 18

945
01:08:08,425 --> 01:08:11,785
million dollars. So we had budget 18 million dollars We

946
01:08:11,865 --> 01:08:15,305
awarded the contract, uh, I believe it was, uh, eight

947
01:08:15,305 --> 01:08:17,625
million dollars. So there was, there was a 10 million

948
01:08:17,785 --> 01:08:21,465
dollar difference. Again, so there is a level of, of,

949
01:08:21,625 --> 01:08:25,065
of uncertainty when it comes to tendering work. Uh, and

950
01:08:25,225 --> 01:08:27,945
we've seen it with some of the projects, some of

951
01:08:28,025 --> 01:08:30,105
the submissions we had in our projects. We had a

952
01:08:30,265 --> 01:08:32,905
17 million dollar bid and we had a 25 million

953
01:08:33,145 --> 01:08:36,365
dollar bit. We can't dictate what the market's going to

954
01:08:36,525 --> 01:08:38,125
come to us, but we can do is be able

955
01:08:38,045 --> 01:08:42,685
to, uh, through the engineering estimates go through and evaluate

956
01:08:43,005 --> 01:08:49,146
what those costumes cost estimates are. Okay. Director Klingland. Uh,

957
01:08:49,226 --> 01:08:50,826
thank you, Mr. Chair. I just wanted to answer a

958
01:08:50,746 --> 01:08:54,106
couple of questions around the timing as well and with

959
01:08:54,186 --> 01:08:56,746
respect to the Hughes funding. So we have elevated this

960
01:08:56,826 --> 01:08:59,706
to the province. We've been speaking to the province, um,

961
01:09:00,986 --> 01:09:04,506
there is an application process to request an extension. We

962
01:09:04,746 --> 01:09:07,466
are aware of two other extensions that have occurred in

963
01:09:07,546 --> 01:09:11,146
the province so far. So we're hoping to be, um,

964
01:09:11,546 --> 01:09:14,026
assessed for that as well. But again, we'll, we'll go

965
01:09:14,026 --> 01:09:17,306
through the application process. We have raised the flag to

966
01:09:17,466 --> 01:09:20,746
MPP Saunderson as well. Um, and also addressing the fact

967
01:09:20,826 --> 01:09:24,026
that the tenders have come in so much higher or

968
01:09:24,026 --> 01:09:25,866
let me rephrase that the estimates at this point for

969
01:09:26,026 --> 01:09:29,226
Mail Street and whether there would be any funding remaining.

970
01:09:29,226 --> 01:09:31,466
Now, of course, that's a real shot in the dark,

971
01:09:31,386 --> 01:09:32,906
but we're going to do our best to continue to

972
01:09:32,986 --> 01:09:36,746
go after that. With respect to the risks of being

973
01:09:37,066 --> 01:09:39,866
even more than the 19 million, I think one thing

974
01:09:39,946 --> 01:09:42,906
that maybe I just wanted to add is that there

975
01:09:42,906 --> 01:09:45,306
are some risks. And we brought the risks up about

976
01:09:45,786 --> 01:09:49,386
around the value engineering assignment. And the fact that, to

977
01:09:49,386 --> 01:09:52,506
be fair, that it may delay the tender even further.

978
01:09:52,426 --> 01:09:57,386
The tender was, um, ready. Uh, sometime in January, but

979
01:09:57,466 --> 01:09:59,866
we have put a pause on it based on the

980
01:10:00,026 --> 01:10:05,066
value engineering exercise. Because if that exercise does, um, raise

981
01:10:05,306 --> 01:10:08,986
questions or provide us with alternative methods. We may want

982
01:10:09,146 --> 01:10:12,986
to change the design or it may even impact those

983
01:10:13,546 --> 01:10:17,306
earlier projects such as Bay Street and the Craig Leaf

984
01:10:17,946 --> 01:10:21,386
main live station. Now in addition to that, what, um,

985
01:10:21,386 --> 01:10:24,666
staff, and I would say that, um, the, uh, project

986
01:10:24,746 --> 01:10:27,946
coordinator, my comfrey has brought up is that the further

987
01:10:28,106 --> 01:10:31,146
we delay the project, the increase in bypass pumping as

988
01:10:31,146 --> 01:10:33,786
well. Because of course we have to have somewhere to

989
01:10:33,946 --> 01:10:37,866
pump, um, this, uh, sewage and there will be additional

990
01:10:38,186 --> 01:10:42,426
costs from that perspective. There is contingency already in the,

991
01:10:42,506 --> 01:10:46,186
in the, um, breakdown of the budget to cover that.

992
01:10:46,106 --> 01:10:48,186
But we do need to be aware that once we

993
01:10:48,186 --> 01:10:52,106
go through, um, value engineering exercise, which will occur the

994
01:10:52,106 --> 01:10:56,106
last week of February, um, with an expectation that the,

995
01:10:56,106 --> 01:10:59,146
um, the final report or a final draft, I will

996
01:10:59,146 --> 01:11:02,186
say will be available to staff, um, before the second

997
01:11:02,346 --> 01:11:05,706
week of March. So, um, we'll have much better information

998
01:11:06,186 --> 01:11:08,746
at that point as to whether there really are some

999
01:11:08,906 --> 01:11:12,826
changes that can be had and maybe some savings. Um,

1000
01:11:12,986 --> 01:11:17,028
but also whether what the additional cost may be. Thank

1001
01:11:17,028 --> 01:11:21,945
you, Director Quinlan. If I could, you're looking at me.

1002
01:11:21,865 --> 01:11:24,802
So I couldn't take advantage of that. Appreciate all of

1003
01:11:24,962 --> 01:11:26,802
this detail. I don't know why it couldn't have been

1004
01:11:26,802 --> 01:11:29,522
in the report. Why couldn't it have been in writing,

1005
01:11:29,442 --> 01:11:32,962
uh, why are we hearing it this way? Um, the

1006
01:11:33,122 --> 01:11:37,104
day has gone. When we just hear it casually. We

1007
01:11:37,184 --> 01:11:43,184
need to have very clear. Um, information public can share

1008
01:11:43,264 --> 01:11:47,424
it at the same time. Um, you know, I understand

1009
01:11:48,304 --> 01:11:54,384
how we might want to manage a crisis and try

1010
01:11:54,384 --> 01:11:56,304
to get people to calm down, which of course is

1011
01:11:56,544 --> 01:11:58,704
important, but at the same time, we need to share

1012
01:11:59,104 --> 01:12:02,944
that we are still in muddy water right now. I

1013
01:12:02,864 --> 01:12:06,624
mean, these are not real answers. These, these are, this

1014
01:12:06,784 --> 01:12:09,104
is direction. This is where we're going. But these are

1015
01:12:09,104 --> 01:12:12,384
not answers. So we are still in, I think everyone

1016
01:12:12,544 --> 01:12:16,384
should be clear on this. We're still in on shaky

1017
01:12:16,384 --> 01:12:19,424
ground. We don't really have all the information. And we

1018
01:12:19,584 --> 01:12:22,144
may be looking at new costs. That's what I've heard.

1019
01:12:25,818 --> 01:12:27,978
I don't, you know, that the possibility that there might

1020
01:12:27,978 --> 01:12:31,338
be additional costs. And I think it's important that that

1021
01:12:31,578 --> 01:12:34,698
needs to be enshrined and made very clear from now

1022
01:12:34,778 --> 01:12:37,098
on. That could be at least one of the lessons.

1023
01:12:37,098 --> 01:12:42,215
Thank you. Okay. CEO Smith. Through the chair, I think

1024
01:12:42,455 --> 01:12:45,095
just to the point around, um, and looking at, you

1025
01:12:45,015 --> 01:12:48,935
know, the documenting risks, identifying that, you know, forthright with

1026
01:12:49,015 --> 01:12:51,575
counselor early point in time. And I think that's where,

1027
01:12:51,495 --> 01:12:53,255
you know, I know in January, there was that report

1028
01:12:53,575 --> 01:12:56,295
regarding the value engineering exercise that was brought forward for

1029
01:12:56,375 --> 01:12:58,455
exactly this point. And I think it's also for, you

1030
01:12:58,375 --> 01:13:01,735
know, for awareness, I think generally publicly or otherwise is

1031
01:13:01,735 --> 01:13:03,655
to know, yeah, there is still that. And this is

1032
01:13:03,655 --> 01:13:06,135
where I think, you know, further to my report as

1033
01:13:06,135 --> 01:13:09,255
well is to say, you know, class estimates, while they,

1034
01:13:09,175 --> 01:13:11,255
yes, they're still estimates. They also have to be treated

1035
01:13:11,735 --> 01:13:15,735
in which, Hey, we know there's these, these foundations or

1036
01:13:15,815 --> 01:13:18,215
assumptions with respect to what those variations are going to

1037
01:13:18,455 --> 01:13:21,015
be moving forward. So if we have a sense at

1038
01:13:21,095 --> 01:13:22,615
an early point in time in which you know what

1039
01:13:22,695 --> 01:13:25,335
we might be in, in waters to which there might

1040
01:13:25,335 --> 01:13:27,735
not be available budget or, you know, there may not

1041
01:13:27,735 --> 01:13:31,415
be these, these savings that we can accrue, uh, let's,

1042
01:13:31,335 --> 01:13:33,815
uh, let's really bring that for transparently to, to, to

1043
01:13:33,895 --> 01:13:36,615
counsel, to address that, um, because there might be things

1044
01:13:36,855 --> 01:13:39,495
from a design standpoint that we, we do know are

1045
01:13:39,495 --> 01:13:42,695
easier to do when you're at either engineering design or,

1046
01:13:42,615 --> 01:13:45,175
um, and, uh, opposed to when you're actually ready to

1047
01:13:45,495 --> 01:13:48,215
get the tender release. So that's the challenge we have

1048
01:13:48,295 --> 01:13:51,815
with this value engineering is to which, um, is when

1049
01:13:51,815 --> 01:13:54,135
you look at those anticipate costs, be it some of

1050
01:13:54,055 --> 01:13:56,935
the anticipated bypass pumping, but also looking at if there

1051
01:13:56,935 --> 01:14:00,695
is something significant that will be changed via the engineering.

1052
01:14:00,615 --> 01:14:03,975
That's, that's, that's costly. So, um, I think 100 percent,

1053
01:14:04,295 --> 01:14:07,895
you know, I think the earlier, the better and certainly

1054
01:14:07,975 --> 01:14:11,095
the, the necessity of doing so with council is a

1055
01:14:11,095 --> 01:14:13,495
commitment on my end moving forward to, to address some

1056
01:14:13,495 --> 01:14:17,806
of the issues that we've seen. Thank you, Smith. Councillor

1057
01:14:17,806 --> 01:14:26,231
Maxwell. Go ahead. Thank you, Chair. So and I'm certainly

1058
01:14:26,311 --> 01:14:31,271
glad that, uh, Drecker Quinlan weighed in. The only department

1059
01:14:31,271 --> 01:14:34,311
we're missing is planning, I think, for my next, where

1060
01:14:34,391 --> 01:14:38,871
I'm going. Anyway, okay, I do not believe that, you

1061
01:14:38,791 --> 01:14:44,647
know, one department is solely responsible. Nor are they individual

1062
01:14:45,367 --> 01:14:51,641
or anybody exempt. Um, I think we're looking at an

1063
01:14:51,881 --> 01:14:59,779
overall. Deep systemless failure. Now, I guess what I'm going

1064
01:14:59,699 --> 01:15:08,097
to ask director Pachenko this question. Uh, what department provided,

1065
01:15:08,017 --> 01:15:12,177
uh, the housing unit numbers beyond what was required for

1066
01:15:12,257 --> 01:15:19,732
the huge funding. Of 13, 000 plus unit. I'm not

1067
01:15:19,732 --> 01:15:22,372
sure what this has to do with the financial. It

1068
01:15:22,372 --> 01:15:27,265
has a lot to do with it. So for the

1069
01:15:27,265 --> 01:15:31,025
chair, again, the, the additional Helsinias as it relates to

1070
01:15:31,105 --> 01:15:35,105
the Hughes funding application. I believe that number was, was

1071
01:15:35,345 --> 01:15:37,585
a number that, that we looked at the full build

1072
01:15:37,825 --> 01:15:42,065
out, um, would have been an exercise in coordination with

1073
01:15:42,305 --> 01:15:48,553
planning, I believe, as far as the increased values. Follow

1074
01:15:48,633 --> 01:15:55,656
up. Yeah, I do. Two, actually. So. The additional housing

1075
01:15:56,056 --> 01:16:01,740
units. Could that have led to cost overruns other projecting.

1076
01:16:05,676 --> 01:16:07,676
Through the chair, no, I don't think so. I think

1077
01:16:08,316 --> 01:16:10,556
when we're planning, uh, the design of this work is

1078
01:16:10,556 --> 01:16:14,236
trying to build some resiliency over the next 20 years.

1079
01:16:14,156 --> 01:16:17,996
Again, while they're, there may have been some pressure in

1080
01:16:18,236 --> 01:16:23,756
some of some developments waiting for this to, um, to,

1081
01:16:23,676 --> 01:16:29,116
um, for this project to be completed. Again, the, the

1082
01:16:29,356 --> 01:16:34,636
overall 13, 000 units, um, didn't put pressure. There were

1083
01:16:34,716 --> 01:16:36,636
some pressure from the Dublin community in trying to get

1084
01:16:36,796 --> 01:16:39,596
some, but again, not, not the full amount, uh, not

1085
01:16:39,836 --> 01:16:40,956
the follow - on. This was just more of a

1086
01:16:42,076 --> 01:16:49,962
building, some resiliency in our system. So to be a

1087
01:16:49,882 --> 01:16:53,562
little more particular, we do have some units that are

1088
01:16:53,642 --> 01:16:57,002
still on hold, uh, as far as developments that are

1089
01:16:57,082 --> 01:16:59,507
waiting for this work to be completed. Again, I believe

1090
01:16:59,987 --> 01:17:02,307
the number don't call me as around 400 units. So

1091
01:17:02,307 --> 01:17:05,667
roughly that are, that are on hold. Um, so that

1092
01:17:05,987 --> 01:17:10,888
are tied to this work as well. Okay. Councillor Maxwell.

1093
01:17:11,912 --> 01:17:14,392
Okay. So the 13, 000, I got to go back

1094
01:17:14,472 --> 01:17:18,472
to this 13, 000 plus units have been mentioned in

1095
01:17:18,472 --> 01:17:23,478
a number of reports. These housing units, I do believe

1096
01:17:23,878 --> 01:17:28,083
will be indirectly tied to the finance department. At some

1097
01:17:28,163 --> 01:17:33,407
point in time to shore up recent shortfalls. So I'm

1098
01:17:33,407 --> 01:17:41,826
just wondering if this whole project is geared. To. Facilitate

1099
01:17:41,986 --> 01:17:46,306
more housing units in order to also shore up the

1100
01:17:46,306 --> 01:17:49,308
shortfalls. Cape director, I see manager Kershaw is on the

1101
01:17:49,308 --> 01:17:52,108
line. Are you okay for her to take this? I'll

1102
01:17:52,188 --> 01:18:00,315
bounce back to you. Magic Kershaw. Hi, good morning. Uh,

1103
01:18:00,555 --> 01:18:04,235
so when we looked at sizing of the Mill Street

1104
01:18:04,395 --> 01:18:08,715
pumping station and the forest main and the outfall. Additionally,

1105
01:18:09,195 --> 01:18:11,915
uh, we were also doing the wastewater master plan. And

1106
01:18:11,995 --> 01:18:15,035
the wastewater master plan, we were in communications with the

1107
01:18:15,195 --> 01:18:18,315
planning department and we, we had the growth numbers. We

1108
01:18:18,395 --> 01:18:21,195
looked at every piece of development property that, that's in

1109
01:18:21,195 --> 01:18:25,995
our primary settlement area. And using our official plan and

1110
01:18:26,075 --> 01:18:28,795
the densities, uh, so we looked at the full build

1111
01:18:28,875 --> 01:18:31,435
out of our primary settlement area plus a little extra

1112
01:18:31,835 --> 01:18:34,075
because we always go a little, we always error on

1113
01:18:34,155 --> 01:18:35,755
the side of a little extra. We want a little

1114
01:18:35,995 --> 01:18:39,755
extra capacity, uh, and we also take into consideration our

1115
01:18:39,995 --> 01:18:44,555
INI rate, uh, peaking factor, or sorry, INI stands for

1116
01:18:44,795 --> 01:18:48,555
influention into our sanitary collection system. And additionally, we looked

1117
01:18:48,555 --> 01:18:51,915
at the peaking factors of, of the pumping station. And

1118
01:18:51,995 --> 01:18:54,635
the pumping station mill street pumping station is rather high.

1119
01:18:54,555 --> 01:18:56,795
I believe it's 5. 4 is the peaking factor. So

1120
01:18:56,955 --> 01:18:59,835
during a heavy rain event, the flows will, we'll multiply

1121
01:19:00,395 --> 01:19:02,795
5. 4 times what they, they normally are on a

1122
01:19:02,955 --> 01:19:05,515
dry day event. And the sizing for the Mill Street

1123
01:19:05,755 --> 01:19:10,795
pumping station, uh, was based on the outcomes from our,

1124
01:19:10,875 --> 01:19:15,755
our wastewater master plan. These projects, we knew right from

1125
01:19:15,755 --> 01:19:17,915
the get go that our wastewater master plan was going

1126
01:19:17,835 --> 01:19:20,955
to take two years to complete. As we did one

1127
01:19:21,035 --> 01:19:23,835
full years worth of flow monitoring throughout the system. And

1128
01:19:23,995 --> 01:19:25,755
we, we knew that from the get go. That was

1129
01:19:25,835 --> 01:19:28,555
always the planet would take two years to finish the

1130
01:19:28,875 --> 01:19:31,355
wastewater master plan. And it was on schedule and on

1131
01:19:31,435 --> 01:19:33,995
time. And once we got the final answers from our

1132
01:19:34,235 --> 01:19:37,755
wastewater master plan, which was in 2025, we knew the

1133
01:19:37,995 --> 01:19:41,435
final size of the pumps that were required or the

1134
01:19:41,515 --> 01:19:43,995
infrastructure that was required at the Mill Street Pumping Station

1135
01:19:44,235 --> 01:19:46,795
and the conveyance all the way to the treatment plant.

1136
01:19:46,715 --> 01:19:49,995
So there were some adjustments made, uh, to the sizing

1137
01:19:50,075 --> 01:19:52,635
of the pumps kind of at the last minute to

1138
01:19:52,635 --> 01:19:54,795
the Mill Street pumping station. Once we had the final

1139
01:19:55,115 --> 01:19:59,275
outcome from our wastewater master plan, I hope that answers

1140
01:19:59,435 --> 01:20:02,635
your question on how did we size? So initially the

1141
01:20:02,955 --> 01:20:06,395
wastewater master plan was done with data that was provided

1142
01:20:06,475 --> 01:20:09,515
from the planning department and looking at our official plan.

1143
01:20:12,032 --> 01:20:21,843
Thank you manager Kershaw. CAO Smith. Yes, you're just further

1144
01:20:21,843 --> 01:20:25,603
to that point. I do see director Quinlan's hand. So

1145
01:20:25,603 --> 01:20:27,203
I didn't want to maybe steal the thunder as a

1146
01:20:27,283 --> 01:20:29,123
relay just in terms of how, you know, looking at

1147
01:20:29,283 --> 01:20:33,283
those future projections or future growth may impact financially. But

1148
01:20:33,443 --> 01:20:36,163
certainly I think that's where, you know, we, we do

1149
01:20:36,243 --> 01:20:38,563
look at our fiscal future, at least from a, from

1150
01:20:38,643 --> 01:20:42,003
a growth standpoint and how to which, you know, moving

1151
01:20:42,163 --> 01:20:45,683
forward on these projects, projects, maybe that, that net benefit

1152
01:20:45,683 --> 01:20:48,563
to the town, particularly in the ability to crew further

1153
01:20:48,563 --> 01:20:51,683
DC revenues. And I think that number that director Pacheco

1154
01:20:52,083 --> 01:20:55,203
noted earlier around say we do have an effect, a

1155
01:20:55,283 --> 01:20:58,083
development freeze within the Thornberry area of around just over

1156
01:20:58,403 --> 01:21:01,203
400 units that are impacted by the inability to, uh,

1157
01:21:01,603 --> 01:21:05,843
to connect via the capacity constraints at the, at the

1158
01:21:06,083 --> 01:21:09,043
pumping station. So it is critical just to realize, I

1159
01:21:08,963 --> 01:21:11,523
think some of those, those projects that in the media

1160
01:21:11,843 --> 01:21:14,723
term are unable to proceed to which in turn not

1161
01:21:14,723 --> 01:21:18,003
being able to proceed means less assessment value as well

1162
01:21:18,003 --> 01:21:20,723
as in terms of less revenue from a DC standpoint.

1163
01:21:20,643 --> 01:21:23,843
And this is not for getting the numbers that counselor

1164
01:21:24,083 --> 01:21:26,483
Maxwell has noted in terms of the future and looking

1165
01:21:26,483 --> 01:21:29,203
at that, that growth period as well, uh, to ensure

1166
01:21:29,363 --> 01:21:32,083
that when these projects move ahead that they have the

1167
01:21:32,243 --> 01:21:34,883
capacity or at least they're built to a point in

1168
01:21:34,963 --> 01:21:39,203
which there's minimal cost to accommodate any future, uh, significant

1169
01:21:39,523 --> 01:21:42,163
growth changes that may, may occur. And that's, I think

1170
01:21:42,243 --> 01:21:45,843
what we've known in this community since, um, looking at,

1171
01:21:45,763 --> 01:21:48,483
if say, you know, your projection's back in say it

1172
01:21:48,403 --> 01:21:50,883
would have been 2016 or were very different from what

1173
01:21:50,883 --> 01:21:54,563
they were, say, uh, post COVID. So that's what we,

1174
01:21:54,643 --> 01:21:56,803
these systems are designed in a way to be, to

1175
01:21:57,043 --> 01:22:00,003
be nimble and to be responsive, uh, what are often

1176
01:22:00,243 --> 01:22:02,803
just fluid growth projections. But what we do know is

1177
01:22:02,963 --> 01:22:04,803
that we still continue to grow and we still have

1178
01:22:05,043 --> 01:22:09,203
a significant, uh, amount of development within our pipeline that

1179
01:22:09,283 --> 01:22:13,043
we need to accommodate alongside the asset management perspective, which

1180
01:22:13,283 --> 01:22:16,083
is a lot of these assets, particularly between the lift

1181
01:22:16,083 --> 01:22:18,643
station and ban gray. They're at their end of life.

1182
01:22:18,563 --> 01:22:20,563
And they do need to be replaced. Ensure that we

1183
01:22:20,723 --> 01:22:23,123
minimized a risk and liability to the town moving forward.

1184
01:22:24,070 --> 01:22:29,393
Thank you, C. M. Smith. Director Krinlin. Go ahead. I

1185
01:22:29,393 --> 01:22:31,793
think C. A. Smith covered it just well. I was

1186
01:22:31,793 --> 01:22:34,353
just wanting to raise that, of course, DCs cannot be

1187
01:22:34,513 --> 01:22:36,833
collected. If the growth can't happen. So certainly that would

1188
01:22:36,833 --> 01:22:40,033
be, um, just exactly what CO Smith said. So I

1189
01:22:40,033 --> 01:22:46,329
won't add anymore. Okay. Thank you. So. Counselor Maxwell, does

1190
01:22:46,409 --> 01:22:50,969
that suit your, uh, I think. Yeah. I've been answered.

1191
01:22:50,889 --> 01:22:55,687
Okay. Thank you. Councillor Ardell. Go ahead. Thank you Mr.

1192
01:22:55,767 --> 01:23:00,647
Chair. And I think today is been very, very informative.

1193
01:23:00,567 --> 01:23:04,727
And I think we're still getting information out. And I

1194
01:23:04,727 --> 01:23:08,247
don't know why we couldn't have had this information before,

1195
01:23:08,167 --> 01:23:11,127
you know, um, and I think there's where the problem

1196
01:23:11,527 --> 01:23:15,367
lives. I guess we want to ensure that all the

1197
01:23:15,767 --> 01:23:20,487
taxpayers are well informed. And today we're hearing all of

1198
01:23:20,567 --> 01:23:24,487
this because we've got, um, Ms. Kershaw. We've got, uh,

1199
01:23:25,687 --> 01:23:30,327
Mr Desai, we've got the director of Mr. Pacheco. And

1200
01:23:30,327 --> 01:23:34,247
we've got our CAO. We are getting, and sorry, Ms.

1201
01:23:34,327 --> 01:23:39,847
Quinn, uh, we are getting all of everybody speaking together.

1202
01:23:39,767 --> 01:23:43,207
And I'm learning some more information as well and how

1203
01:23:43,367 --> 01:23:47,527
things, when we don't, um, have up to date information

1204
01:23:49,687 --> 01:23:53,847
and that where things can go, um, at a raise.

1205
01:23:53,767 --> 01:23:56,647
And sort of, you know, I remember a couple of

1206
01:23:56,727 --> 01:24:00,967
years ago, I can't remember which department it was and

1207
01:24:01,127 --> 01:24:03,687
came back to us and said, Oh, we did some

1208
01:24:04,007 --> 01:24:06,967
estimates. And we have an overrun. So now we need

1209
01:24:07,047 --> 01:24:10,487
to fund it again, but they were using costing figures

1210
01:24:10,647 --> 01:24:15,287
from 20 either 16 or 17. And it was like,

1211
01:24:15,207 --> 01:24:18,247
why? And I think this was back in 23. And

1212
01:24:18,247 --> 01:24:22,327
like that is so old that information, we need to

1213
01:24:22,487 --> 01:24:27,607
keep updating this information constantly so that we are, um,

1214
01:24:28,247 --> 01:24:31,287
learning where things are, our growth is going to be

1215
01:24:31,287 --> 01:24:34,407
happening. And where we, we should be expecting our numbers

1216
01:24:34,487 --> 01:24:36,967
to be going. So, um, I just wanted to make

1217
01:24:37,047 --> 01:24:39,527
those comments. Everybody else has made a lot of comments

1218
01:24:40,087 --> 01:24:42,087
and I'm not going to dwell on that because as

1219
01:24:42,087 --> 01:24:45,127
the time goes, it's almost 11 o'clock. So I just

1220
01:24:45,287 --> 01:24:49,527
think that, uh, we're getting to where I, the answers

1221
01:24:49,527 --> 01:24:53,847
are and anybody listening online. Hopefully they get the updates

1222
01:24:53,927 --> 01:24:57,367
as well. And I think that's, uh, we're getting somewhere.

1223
01:24:57,287 --> 01:25:00,087
And thank you for all the information today to all

1224
01:25:00,247 --> 01:25:04,881
staff for that. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Adele. Okay.

1225
01:25:05,121 --> 01:25:07,761
Councilor Porter, are you bringing forward a motion or you

1226
01:25:07,761 --> 01:25:14,495
have another question. Not yet. Chair, um, through you, I

1227
01:25:14,495 --> 01:25:18,255
have some more questions. So on page two of the

1228
01:25:18,415 --> 01:25:22,655
report under engineering with the table, which is the first

1229
01:25:22,895 --> 01:25:27,295
table in the report. It has about summarizing engineering budget

1230
01:25:27,295 --> 01:25:30,895
for all projects combined showing the revised budget. This is

1231
01:25:31,135 --> 01:25:35,167
a revised budget after council approved. The funding, which was

1232
01:25:35,167 --> 01:25:39,327
the December 15th report. So again, we need to figure

1233
01:25:39,487 --> 01:25:43,487
out, I guess it sums it up. The words that'll

1234
01:25:43,487 --> 01:25:44,367
sum it up is we need to be able to

1235
01:25:44,767 --> 01:25:47,887
follow the money for the project. And we haven't, I

1236
01:25:47,887 --> 01:25:49,647
can't do that. And I just want to make a

1237
01:25:49,647 --> 01:25:52,447
note. I may have made a comment in my last,

1238
01:25:52,367 --> 01:25:54,767
um, maybe staff need to do better. And it wasn't

1239
01:25:55,247 --> 01:25:56,927
intended to be directive. So I just want to make

1240
01:25:56,847 --> 01:26:01,087
sure if it was interpreted that way, that, um, it

1241
01:26:01,247 --> 01:26:05,896
wasn't intended that way. When we go on to, um.

1242
01:26:07,188 --> 01:26:10,548
A table with the engineering expenditures, um, I just want

1243
01:26:10,468 --> 01:26:14,388
to, the funding in the amount of 150, 000 will

1244
01:26:14,468 --> 01:26:18,068
be drawn from this budget line. So I'd like in

1245
01:26:18,068 --> 01:26:20,948
a future report so we know where, what budget line

1246
01:26:21,028 --> 01:26:23,518
it is. And then I just want to be clear

1247
01:26:23,678 --> 01:26:27,758
about when it says any required budget adjustments, will we

1248
01:26:27,838 --> 01:26:30,878
report it to counsel for consideration as appropriate? I just

1249
01:26:31,118 --> 01:26:35,518
want to remind staff, the motion clearly states counsel direct

1250
01:26:35,838 --> 01:26:39,701
staff to report on any variance to this project. Not

1251
01:26:39,701 --> 01:26:43,351
a budget adjustment of variance. And, uh, any project manager

1252
01:26:43,511 --> 01:26:46,536
knows what a variance is. When we go on to

1253
01:26:46,856 --> 01:26:50,776
further, which just talks about the Craig Nate lift station,

1254
01:26:50,696 --> 01:26:55,577
we now see something called an additional contingency. Um, I

1255
01:26:55,657 --> 01:26:58,777
would like to see what the original contingency is and

1256
01:26:58,777 --> 01:27:04,457
broken down. In contingency seeing an additional contingency was an

1257
01:27:04,697 --> 01:27:08,297
interesting label for it. So if you have an original

1258
01:27:08,697 --> 01:27:11,177
contingency and you get an additional one, I think it's

1259
01:27:11,497 --> 01:27:15,400
rightly that it's broken down. Um, and that appears again

1260
01:27:16,360 --> 01:27:21,306
with respect to two Bay Street. So I just think

1261
01:27:21,626 --> 01:27:28,245
there's a lot more questions to be answered. And really

1262
01:27:28,325 --> 01:27:31,445
being able to, um, follow the money. And I just

1263
01:27:31,605 --> 01:27:34,565
like to add, when it comes down to what Councillor

1264
01:27:34,725 --> 01:27:37,365
Maxwell was saying, if you go back and read the

1265
01:27:37,765 --> 01:27:44,165
May 2022 report, it clearly states that the Mills Street

1266
01:27:45,365 --> 01:27:48,485
pumping station lack capacity for the build out of the

1267
01:27:48,725 --> 01:27:53,157
campus of care. Which was a concept at best at

1268
01:27:53,237 --> 01:27:56,357
any given time pointing time. Um, while it was mentioned

1269
01:27:56,517 --> 01:27:58,997
about the one in 100 storms and it was mentioned

1270
01:27:59,157 --> 01:28:02,757
about other things, um, the campus of care was the

1271
01:28:02,837 --> 01:28:07,178
driver at that time. I would also like to know,

1272
01:28:07,098 --> 01:28:11,178
um, the financials with respect to the budget on the

1273
01:28:11,178 --> 01:28:16,364
awarding of the tenders. In a follow - up report.

1274
01:28:16,364 --> 01:28:18,684
So I may want to put that in what was

1275
01:28:18,684 --> 01:28:22,604
the budget when the tenders were awarded because the director

1276
01:28:22,684 --> 01:28:27,964
Pachenko has mentioned about the awarding of the attenders. So

1277
01:28:28,684 --> 01:28:33,804
those are critical milestones in a project financials as just

1278
01:28:33,964 --> 01:28:36,444
checks and balances. You know, you ward, you only have

1279
01:28:36,524 --> 01:28:39,112
so much. So I think it would be. It would

1280
01:28:39,112 --> 01:28:44,072
be responsible for that to be outlined. So how does

1281
01:28:44,232 --> 01:28:47,032
the budget go when you start allocating money out? What

1282
01:28:48,312 --> 01:28:52,232
is when did you know what the amounts would be?

1283
01:28:53,032 --> 01:28:56,072
Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Porter. Mr. Desai, I see

1284
01:28:56,072 --> 01:29:01,205
your hand. Go ahead. Uh, thank you, Chair. Uh, through

1285
01:29:01,205 --> 01:29:05,285
the chair, I'd like to first answer the first question

1286
01:29:05,685 --> 01:29:11,765
of counselor porters on the engineering budget, the number itself

1287
01:29:12,485 --> 01:29:17,285
where did we got the 2. 75 200 million dollars.

1288
01:29:21,649 --> 01:29:27,969
So in 2022, uh, town staff through a staff report

1289
01:29:28,209 --> 01:29:38,100
got approval of 2 million dollars. And further after

1290
01:29:38,100 --> 01:29:42,740
that, there was a, uh, through 2023 budget cycle as

1291
01:29:42,660 --> 01:29:46,500
well. They're 2 million dollars was presented in the budget

1292
01:29:46,740 --> 01:29:52,600
cycle. And in 2023, August of 2023, there was additional

1293
01:29:53,000 --> 01:30:02,092
ask for additional 200, 000. Plus. Past that.

1294
01:30:03,232 --> 01:30:04,592
In, let me just pull up my screen over here

1295
01:30:04,832 --> 01:30:14,511
real quick. So through the staff report CSOPS

1296
01:30:14,831 --> 01:30:19,071
dot 23 dot 019, that was this additional 200, 000

1297
01:30:19,231 --> 01:30:23,151
dollars of engineering increase, so which gave 2. 2 million

1298
01:30:23,391 --> 01:30:28,431
dollars in engineering further in the same year, uh, CSOPS

1299
01:30:28,751 --> 01:30:35,311
dot 23. 044 in August on August 28, 2023, the

1300
01:30:35,391 --> 01:30:41,148
engineering budget was increased to 2. 5 million dollars. Adding

1301
01:30:41,148 --> 01:30:46,775
the force main to the project scope as well. Further,

1302
01:30:47,015 --> 01:30:52,215
and this was also reflected in 2024 approved budget cycle.

1303
01:30:52,135 --> 01:30:55,735
And in 2025, uh, the number was for their increased

1304
01:30:57,015 --> 01:31:02,295
to 2. 775 200 million to reflect the huge grant

1305
01:31:02,295 --> 01:31:07,975
application as well. So that 2, 775, 200 dollars is

1306
01:31:07,975 --> 01:31:12,775
directly from the 2025 budget cycle. Approved budget book. And

1307
01:31:12,855 --> 01:31:16,935
that was done to reflect the huge grant application. Further

1308
01:31:17,015 --> 01:31:23,926
coming on the second question related to the. Engineering contingency

1309
01:31:25,446 --> 01:31:34,379
within engineering budget itself. So we had 473, 886 dollars

1310
01:31:34,779 --> 01:31:38,139
and 10 cents of engineering contingency and whole as the

1311
01:31:38,139 --> 01:31:40,539
engineering budget because this was a whole club to one

1312
01:31:40,539 --> 01:31:44,363
project, one engineering exercise. And the current remaining contingency for

1313
01:31:44,683 --> 01:31:50,843
engineering itself is dollar 98, 788 dollar, 69 cents. And

1314
01:31:50,843 --> 01:31:52,843
through the chair, I will make sure that we reflect

1315
01:31:53,243 --> 01:31:57,243
this on the, uh, next quarterly report to have it

1316
01:31:57,323 --> 01:32:02,123
well presented. Uh, further, moving to the next question on

1317
01:32:02,523 --> 01:32:06,683
contingencies on Craiglit main sewage. Cherry, may I ask a

1318
01:32:06,683 --> 01:32:11,364
question. Uh, well. So through the chair, I don't understand

1319
01:32:11,764 --> 01:32:14,564
why you indicated that would come on the next quarterly

1320
01:32:14,724 --> 01:32:19,124
report. I'm hoping that we are able to follow the

1321
01:32:19,204 --> 01:32:23,764
money on February 24th report. Thank you. Sure, it'll be

1322
01:32:23,764 --> 01:32:28,872
captured. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Okay. So without further

1323
01:32:28,952 --> 01:32:32,712
ado, please continue Mr. Desai. You had further answers. Thank

1324
01:32:32,712 --> 01:32:37,112
you, Chair. Uh, in terms of the contingencies for Craig

1325
01:32:37,192 --> 01:32:42,632
Leith, main sewage lift station, uh, to answer counselor porters

1326
01:32:42,952 --> 01:32:48,382
question. So, uh, the awarded. Agreement for the works was

1327
01:32:48,782 --> 01:32:55,902
dollar 7. 9 million dollars plus the original contact. And

1328
01:32:55,902 --> 01:33:02,222
within the award letter itself, but that was way kind

1329
01:33:02,142 --> 01:33:06,027
of close to five percent of the award value. So

1330
01:33:06,747 --> 01:33:10,907
due to that reason that additional contingency was added, which

1331
01:33:10,907 --> 01:33:16,267
is 500, 000 additional. And that 500, 000 honestly, it's

1332
01:33:16,267 --> 01:33:19,787
way less to capture. It's just around five percent to

1333
01:33:19,787 --> 01:33:25,232
be captured. So that additional contingency was added there. And

1334
01:33:27,232 --> 01:33:34,100
further, I think so, uh. To answer the last question

1335
01:33:34,340 --> 01:33:37,140
on what was the budget when we awarded the tender.

1336
01:33:38,056 --> 01:33:43,976
So the 2025 budget book, whatever the budget, whatever the

1337
01:33:44,216 --> 01:33:47,256
approved budget was in 2025, approved budget book. That was

1338
01:33:47,336 --> 01:33:50,456
the original budget. What we had when we awarded the

1339
01:33:50,616 --> 01:33:53,940
tenders. Or if the question is what was the remaining

1340
01:33:54,260 --> 01:33:56,260
budget or what was the remaining budget when we were

1341
01:33:56,420 --> 01:33:58,340
awarding this jobs. That's something we can bring it back

1342
01:33:58,420 --> 01:34:01,894
to the council. Do you want to clarify Councillor Porter?

1343
01:34:02,134 --> 01:34:06,454
Um, yes. So with respect to, cause I wasn't able

1344
01:34:06,454 --> 01:34:09,334
to follow, it would be useful to have in the,

1345
01:34:09,494 --> 01:34:16,430
in the 20th February 24th report is. What are the

1346
01:34:16,430 --> 01:34:19,790
contingencies? Because we seem to have different contingency. So it's

1347
01:34:20,510 --> 01:34:23,310
itemizing it so you can literally follow the money to

1348
01:34:23,390 --> 01:34:29,902
get to the total. And yes, I am looking for.

1349
01:34:30,893 --> 01:34:34,173
Um, for the amount of the budget that was remaining

1350
01:34:35,213 --> 01:34:38,253
on the budget that was in the Hughes funding application,

1351
01:34:38,173 --> 01:34:40,813
the 34, I believe it is rounding it up. Upon

1352
01:34:41,053 --> 01:34:42,333
a warning of the tenders, I want to know how

1353
01:34:42,333 --> 01:34:45,441
much money was left on the budget. Balance sheet. So

1354
01:34:45,521 --> 01:34:47,681
to speak. Yes, I do. At that point in time.

1355
01:34:49,092 --> 01:34:52,553
When the tenders were awarded. Thank you. Kate, thank you

1356
01:34:52,873 --> 01:34:57,333
Council supporter. Thank Mr. DeSize. Making notation of that. Well,

1357
01:34:57,813 --> 01:35:03,643
he's doing that. Uh, CAO Smith. Inadvertently put your hand

1358
01:35:03,643 --> 01:35:06,439
up. No, through the chair. It's going to note just

1359
01:35:06,439 --> 01:35:09,159
in terms of, uh, looking at that fall report and

1360
01:35:09,159 --> 01:35:11,959
perhaps just in terms of recognizing some of these questions

1361
01:35:12,599 --> 01:35:13,799
have been, or at least some of the responses of

1362
01:35:14,519 --> 01:35:16,599
being staff have been more so looking on the fly.

1363
01:35:16,599 --> 01:35:19,959
I think that's where we certainly benefit from that morph,

1364
01:35:19,879 --> 01:35:23,446
fulsome report coming in and later in February. Okay. Thank

1365
01:35:23,446 --> 01:35:28,234
you, Mr. Smith. So seeing no further, uh, I'm just

1366
01:35:28,314 --> 01:35:30,474
going to put it out there. If there was anyone

1367
01:35:30,714 --> 01:35:33,434
that wanted to make, wanted to move the receipt of

1368
01:35:33,514 --> 01:35:36,794
this or if they had further, uh, further thoughts on

1369
01:35:37,114 --> 01:35:40,954
the motion. Yes. Council reporter. I'm typing away. Maybe given

1370
01:35:40,954 --> 01:35:44,074
the time might be a good time to have a

1371
01:35:44,154 --> 01:35:45,994
break. Yes. That's what I was going to say. So

1372
01:35:47,114 --> 01:35:51,754
whilst you're doing that, um, Madam Clerk, uh, is 11,

1373
01:35:51,674 --> 01:35:57,067
10 inappropriate time to reconvene. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Maybe

1374
01:35:57,147 --> 01:36:01,067
even 11, 15. Thank you. All right. We'll reconvene. Turn

1375
01:36:00,987 --> 01:36:02,267
your, please turn your cameras and microphones off.

1376
01:47:51,576 --> 01:47:54,216
Okay. It's 11 15. Thank you for that break. Just

1377
01:47:54,216 --> 01:47:56,635
a reminder to please tune your cameras on. Take a

1378
01:47:56,635 --> 01:47:59,254
Madam Clerk. Yep. Take a moment.

1379
01:48:07,975 --> 01:48:08,682
So we need a few. More.

1380
01:48:25,384 --> 01:48:27,460
We don't have a. Quorum anyway. So we can, we'll

1381
01:48:27,460 --> 01:48:27,540
wait.

1382
01:49:26,903 --> 01:49:34,021
Okay. Mr. Chair, we have a quorum now. Okay. Unfortunately

1383
01:49:34,981 --> 01:49:38,341
our, uh, our member that was writing the motion is

1384
01:49:38,421 --> 01:49:41,141
not present yet. So we'll have to wait await for

1385
01:49:41,141 --> 01:49:41,461
her return.

1386
01:50:06,827 --> 01:50:07,320
Thank. You.

1387
01:51:24,875 --> 01:51:30,780
It's been sent. Okay. Thank you, uh, Councillor Porter. Sure.

1388
01:51:30,780 --> 01:51:33,900
Madam Clerk will be receiving it virtually. Um, did you

1389
01:51:33,900 --> 01:51:39,172
want to read what you have counselor porter. Well, happy

1390
01:51:39,252 --> 01:51:41,332
to do so. Thank you. I'll just be a moment,

1391
01:51:41,252 --> 01:51:42,452
Mr. Chair. We can get it up on the screen

1392
01:51:43,172 --> 01:51:44,692
so people can follow along. Okay. Thank you.

1393
01:52:23,823 --> 01:52:28,283
Okay. So we have that counsel receive stat report OPS

1394
01:52:28,523 --> 01:52:30,923
dot two six dot zero zero eight entitled Craig Leith

1395
01:52:31,003 --> 01:52:35,661
SLS Mill Street SBS. And Bay Gray Street linear works

1396
01:52:35,741 --> 01:52:39,981
financial reporting and project cost update, which constitutes the Folsom

1397
01:52:40,061 --> 01:52:45,043
report requested by council. And that council direct staff to

1398
01:52:45,123 --> 01:52:50,832
provide financial updates for the duration of the project. Starting

1399
01:52:51,232 --> 01:52:56,752
in May 2022 in order that all escalation and increases

1400
01:52:57,312 --> 01:53:04,442
our transparent and understandable. Oh, and. That council direct staff

1401
01:53:04,682 --> 01:53:09,482
to itemize the original and additional contingency with dates of

1402
01:53:09,642 --> 01:53:13,888
request and approval. And that council direct staff to provide

1403
01:53:14,368 --> 01:53:19,008
the detailed financial reporting and project costs information starting with

1404
01:53:19,168 --> 01:53:27,568
the CSLS and bay gray at linear works.

1405
01:53:29,325 --> 01:53:32,045
Up to the award of the tenders, which were awarded

1406
01:53:32,125 --> 01:53:39,971
on October 21 and 2023, 2025. That council direct staff

1407
01:53:40,611 --> 01:53:43,571
to provide the amount remaining in the bundled project total

1408
01:53:43,731 --> 01:53:50,118
of budget of, yeah, total, total budget of. Three, 34.

1409
01:53:51,251 --> 01:53:54,051
I think this was supposed to be 34 million, 791,

1410
01:53:54,771 --> 01:53:58,670
129. Dollar is huge funding in brackets. When the tenders

1411
01:53:58,830 --> 01:54:07,832
were awarded on October 21st and 2020 23rd, 2025. That

1412
01:54:08,072 --> 01:54:11,912
council direct staff to provide detailed information regarding the estimates

1413
01:54:12,232 --> 01:54:15,592
on the Mill Street pumping station, which underpins the 19

1414
01:54:17,032 --> 01:54:21,955
million. That's all of it. Yes. Okay. I may have

1415
01:54:22,515 --> 01:54:25,075
mistaken, you know, I've seen, um, through the chair, Madam

1416
01:54:25,155 --> 01:54:28,369
Kirk's grammatically correct with some of it. I was, we

1417
01:54:28,449 --> 01:54:31,017
were typing as fast as we could. Okay. So I

1418
01:54:31,257 --> 01:54:37,980
will move this. Okay. And Councillor Mack. Turned off again.

1419
01:54:37,900 --> 01:54:39,820
Are you seconding it Council Maxwell? I just want to

1420
01:54:39,820 --> 01:54:41,260
ask a question to the mover before. I'm going to

1421
01:54:41,340 --> 01:54:44,700
get a second or first. Seconded by Councillor Hope. Now

1422
01:54:44,780 --> 01:54:47,740
go ahead, Councillor Maxwell. Thank you. Before your support, this,

1423
01:54:47,660 --> 01:54:50,523
I just want to know what you mean by. Understandable.

1424
01:54:52,750 --> 01:54:57,183
Like, are you saying plain language. What do we say?

1425
01:54:57,263 --> 01:54:59,503
It would be, so through the chair in response to

1426
01:54:59,663 --> 01:55:01,183
Councillor Maxwell, it would be nice to be able to

1427
01:55:01,583 --> 01:55:05,316
follow the money, as they say. To see how it

1428
01:55:05,396 --> 01:55:09,556
goes from one to the other, tells the story of,

1429
01:55:09,476 --> 01:55:12,836
you started out with a 1. 2 million dollar budget

1430
01:55:13,316 --> 01:55:17,773
for Craig Leith in the 2021 approved budget. And now

1431
01:55:17,773 --> 01:55:20,813
we have a budget of 50 some odd million. How

1432
01:55:20,893 --> 01:55:24,939
did we get there? And when you have a project

1433
01:55:25,499 --> 01:55:27,944
and you manage a project. I think it's reasonable to

1434
01:55:28,104 --> 01:55:30,424
expect that you would be able to articulate how it

1435
01:55:30,424 --> 01:55:34,576
grew that big. Councillor Maxwell, do you have a follow

1436
01:55:34,656 --> 01:55:37,418
- up to that? So you're just saying an understandable

1437
01:55:37,898 --> 01:55:44,134
timeline. Basically. Okay. Thank you. It's through the chair as

1438
01:55:44,134 --> 01:55:48,294
well. What I mean by understandable is that it can

1439
01:55:48,294 --> 01:55:52,214
be understood by the audience. The audience is counsel, the

1440
01:55:52,214 --> 01:55:56,534
audience is the public. It's not providing to a fellow

1441
01:55:56,774 --> 01:55:59,974
engineer. I just want to make sure that it makes,

1442
01:55:59,894 --> 01:56:05,131
it's in plain English. It's easy to understand. Okay. Um.

1443
01:56:05,960 --> 01:56:08,200
I would also add, I know this is coming from

1444
01:56:08,680 --> 01:56:11,880
OBS. It's coming from capital project management, but repeatedly on

1445
01:56:12,040 --> 01:56:15,800
the project page. It always has a quarterly update of

1446
01:56:15,960 --> 01:56:20,280
within budget. So it is assumed that the operations in

1447
01:56:20,200 --> 01:56:23,720
the capital management office knows exactly where their finances are

1448
01:56:23,880 --> 01:56:26,520
at any given time. So I'm as, you know, I'm

1449
01:56:26,520 --> 01:56:28,600
not releasing that this should be too owner is to

1450
01:56:28,600 --> 01:56:31,960
do because they reported on a quarterly basis anyway. So

1451
01:56:32,360 --> 01:56:36,654
those numbers come, those statements arise from numbers. Thank you.

1452
01:56:37,723 --> 01:56:42,474
Thank you, Councillor Porter. I don't see any further questions

1453
01:56:43,034 --> 01:56:47,485
from members of committee. No, I see Councillor Adult. Councilor

1454
01:56:47,485 --> 01:56:49,885
Adel's on my screen. Now I can see her. So

1455
01:56:49,965 --> 01:56:53,167
I don't see any virtual hands. So Madam Clerk, please

1456
01:56:53,327 --> 01:56:55,854
call that boat. Thank you. The vote is open.

1457
01:57:09,523 --> 01:57:13,290
Any affirmative, please. Thank you. The vote is closed. And

1458
01:57:13,450 --> 01:57:16,250
that vote is carried with all members present voting in

1459
01:57:16,330 --> 01:57:19,751
the affirmative. Thank you. So we'll now move on to

1460
01:57:20,071 --> 01:57:24,231
item B 4. 2 investigative report. Craig Leith SLS Mill

1461
01:57:24,231 --> 01:57:28,631
Street SPS and Bay, gray, street, linear works, ADM. 26.

1462
01:57:29,431 --> 01:57:38,759
015. I'll turn it over to director Pacheco. Sorry.

1463
01:57:39,658 --> 01:57:41,898
CAO Smith. Do they show this is my report? Sorry.

1464
01:57:42,058 --> 01:57:48,621
CEO Smith. My apologies. Go ahead, CO Smith. No, sorry.

1465
01:57:48,701 --> 01:57:51,181
Uh, through the chair, though, just for Claire, you generally

1466
01:57:51,661 --> 01:57:54,701
an administrative matter would be more so on the committee

1467
01:57:54,701 --> 01:57:56,381
of the hole on the Monday, but based on the

1468
01:57:56,781 --> 01:57:59,741
tie between, uh, the, uh, the other financial report with

1469
01:57:59,901 --> 01:58:02,621
respect to, uh, this issue that we figured it was

1470
01:58:02,781 --> 01:58:06,061
appropriate to put on, on the Tuesday. So no fault

1471
01:58:06,141 --> 01:58:09,380
of your own chair. Um, anyway, just to start. So

1472
01:58:09,380 --> 01:58:11,700
through the chair, as I noted that, uh, I will

1473
01:58:11,780 --> 01:58:13,860
be taking this report. And I think among the reasons

1474
01:58:14,180 --> 01:58:17,620
in terms of, uh, taking this investigate report is ultimately

1475
01:58:18,660 --> 01:58:21,540
when dubs come to initiatives such as, uh, the scale

1476
01:58:22,260 --> 01:58:24,340
and the significance of these is that, you know, I

1477
01:58:24,420 --> 01:58:27,300
bear that as for the CEO for the town, that

1478
01:58:27,300 --> 01:58:30,740
ultimate responsibility with respect to ensuring that, you know, they

1479
01:58:30,820 --> 01:58:33,060
are, they are done in a fiscally responsible way and

1480
01:58:33,060 --> 01:58:34,500
in a manner that's also going to be, going to

1481
01:58:34,500 --> 01:58:37,300
be operationally sound. So that's where I think certainly is,

1482
01:58:37,380 --> 01:58:39,780
is my, my position to step in here and provide

1483
01:58:39,780 --> 01:58:42,580
that insight and to understand and to have that, uh,

1484
01:58:42,820 --> 01:58:45,060
sense. And I think for any project as well, regardless

1485
01:58:45,700 --> 01:58:47,460
is to say we're, you know, where could there be

1486
01:58:47,460 --> 01:58:50,500
those lessons learned and look in that, that culture of,

1487
01:58:50,500 --> 01:58:54,020
of continuous improvement. Um, but what I will say, and

1488
01:58:54,100 --> 01:58:56,340
I think some general themes as council and members of

1489
01:58:56,500 --> 01:58:59,060
public may note from this, uh, from the staff report

1490
01:58:59,300 --> 01:59:02,180
is that, um, in, in how these, these projects came

1491
01:59:02,340 --> 01:59:04,740
to be is that there's been, you know, I think

1492
01:59:04,820 --> 01:59:07,140
the issues we're associated with, you know, looking at gaps

1493
01:59:07,540 --> 01:59:12,100
in relation internal communication, looking at implementation of existing policy

1494
01:59:12,260 --> 01:59:15,220
and practice as well as the lack of timely reporting.

1495
01:59:15,220 --> 01:59:18,420
So those are likely the three to which, um, if

1496
01:59:18,420 --> 01:59:20,340
I could sum it up in terms of internally where

1497
01:59:20,340 --> 01:59:23,300
there was, there was some challenges. I think that's, that's

1498
01:59:23,300 --> 01:59:26,580
certainly where they do reside. Uh, I will note that,

1499
01:59:26,500 --> 01:59:29,060
you know, in the focus for this, this report is

1500
01:59:29,060 --> 01:59:32,660
exclusively looking at the tendering. These projects by themselves certainly

1501
01:59:32,660 --> 01:59:34,020
have a bit of a long history in terms of

1502
01:59:34,900 --> 01:59:37,780
their inception, be it from engineering or concept to where

1503
01:59:37,860 --> 01:59:40,740
they are today. Uh, but essentially when we go into

1504
01:59:40,820 --> 01:59:44,020
the issue of them being buddled together, this occurred collectively

1505
01:59:44,180 --> 01:59:47,700
back in 2023. And in doing so, we use the

1506
01:59:47,700 --> 01:59:50,820
estimates known as the class C estimates, which then understanding

1507
01:59:50,900 --> 01:59:53,940
that there's going to still be a potential significant variation

1508
01:59:54,100 --> 01:59:56,260
from the class C to when you get to those

1509
01:59:56,900 --> 02:00:00,500
issue for tender, uh, related cause. So there is going

1510
02:00:00,420 --> 02:00:02,660
to be that variation. And at the time, that's generally

1511
02:00:02,980 --> 02:00:04,900
common practice to have that when you're in that more

1512
02:00:05,140 --> 02:00:08,420
of that engineering favorite, early engineering stage in that conceptual

1513
02:00:08,580 --> 02:00:11,780
stage as well. Uh, these numbers, we're used as part

1514
02:00:11,780 --> 02:00:14,900
of that hues grant or the housing enabling water systems

1515
02:00:15,060 --> 02:00:17,620
grant in 2024. So as many would note, this is

1516
02:00:17,620 --> 02:00:21,540
a provincial program that has significant dollars associated with infrastructure

1517
02:00:21,700 --> 02:00:26,340
projects that were essentially going to drive, uh, the housing

1518
02:00:26,580 --> 02:00:29,700
supply, uh, across the province to meet that, uh, that

1519
02:00:29,780 --> 02:00:32,500
provincial priority. Uh, so as part of that grant application

1520
02:00:32,980 --> 02:00:36,020
going into 2024 and as noted within that, that submission

1521
02:00:36,500 --> 02:00:39,060
released the intention of that program is that is to

1522
02:00:39,300 --> 02:00:43,460
be aggressive with relation to meeting certain timelines and milestones.

1523
02:00:43,380 --> 02:00:45,300
And I think that was one of the challenges that

1524
02:00:45,300 --> 02:00:47,780
staff did grapple with in terms of completing that application

1525
02:00:48,180 --> 02:00:52,100
was sticking or aligning with those, uh, ensuring that we

1526
02:00:52,100 --> 02:00:55,460
could meet those timelines, which also served to affect even

1527
02:00:55,460 --> 02:00:57,780
the numbers that were put in. So looking at some

1528
02:00:57,780 --> 02:01:00,740
of the requirements under the program is to note that

1529
02:01:01,460 --> 02:01:04,020
some of those numbers could have been also further adjusted

1530
02:01:04,100 --> 02:01:07,220
to potentially allow for additional dollars that may come from

1531
02:01:07,220 --> 02:01:11,060
that, that program. Um, I would be, I would be

1532
02:01:11,140 --> 02:01:13,460
remiss to say that that would be any guarantee given

1533
02:01:13,460 --> 02:01:16,580
the amount of demand on the program. But I still,

1534
02:01:16,500 --> 02:01:18,980
I do believe that we were tremendously lucky to even

1535
02:01:19,060 --> 02:01:22,660
get the provincial funding that we did receive, recognizing the

1536
02:01:23,140 --> 02:01:28,220
criticality of these, these projects in the community. Uh, now

1537
02:01:28,380 --> 02:01:31,500
going into the summer of 2025, there began to be

1538
02:01:31,820 --> 02:01:35,980
further confidence with respect to the, uh, the cost escalations

1539
02:01:36,620 --> 02:01:39,340
that were primarily with the Craig leafless station as well

1540
02:01:39,340 --> 02:01:41,900
as for the Brie and Grey street linear work. So

1541
02:01:41,980 --> 02:01:44,700
that's when we start to move forward from your class

1542
02:01:44,780 --> 02:01:48,140
C to more that class A range, reducing the variation

1543
02:01:48,460 --> 02:01:51,820
or what that expectation of those, those ultimately, uh, ultimate

1544
02:01:51,900 --> 02:01:55,260
tender costs, uh, may be. But this is where there

1545
02:01:55,580 --> 02:01:57,900
was that, you know, when I know that gap, it

1546
02:01:57,900 --> 02:02:01,420
relates to, to communication and to affect a reporting is

1547
02:02:01,580 --> 02:02:04,460
what did not occur was an effective escalation of these

1548
02:02:04,540 --> 02:02:07,580
costs, uh, to finance staff to be included within the

1549
02:02:07,820 --> 02:02:11,260
context of the, uh, going into that 2026 budget. So

1550
02:02:11,420 --> 02:02:14,060
the budget was ongoing at this point in time, but,

1551
02:02:13,980 --> 02:02:17,100
uh, based on, uh, us not proceeding and based on

1552
02:02:17,100 --> 02:02:19,340
the fact that also as a bundle, when you look

1553
02:02:19,340 --> 02:02:22,540
at the costs as a whole as well, that generally

1554
02:02:22,780 --> 02:02:24,860
we would still be able to lined. So for example,

1555
02:02:25,100 --> 02:02:27,420
within that, that lump sum that when you think of

1556
02:02:27,660 --> 02:02:29,740
a Craig Weef lift station project and based on the

1557
02:02:29,980 --> 02:02:32,620
size of the portion of that project, when you're over,

1558
02:02:32,540 --> 02:02:34,860
say by even a million or two million, you may

1559
02:02:34,940 --> 02:02:37,340
still be able to find cost adjustments or maybe able

1560
02:02:37,260 --> 02:02:40,620
to find ways in which other, um, projects or costs

1561
02:02:40,620 --> 02:02:43,340
may still be lower when you look at those, those

1562
02:02:43,580 --> 02:02:48,380
subsequent, uh, bundle projects moving forward. Um, having said that,

1563
02:02:48,300 --> 02:02:51,420
if these were unbundled, the process would still be that

1564
02:02:51,420 --> 02:02:53,580
we proceed with a report to counsel to request additional

1565
02:02:53,740 --> 02:02:56,940
budget when we know the reasonable certainty in which we're,

1566
02:02:56,940 --> 02:02:59,900
we're to over. Um, so that, that, that was a

1567
02:02:59,980 --> 02:03:02,300
gap and that was certainly a miss from, from our

1568
02:03:02,380 --> 02:03:06,450
end with respect to, to, to the reporting there. Now

1569
02:03:07,010 --> 02:03:09,810
once again, going back to the grant itself and proceeding

1570
02:03:09,810 --> 02:03:13,570
in this manner, it would be, there were those intense

1571
02:03:13,730 --> 02:03:15,970
timelines and milestones. So I will say that I wasn't

1572
02:03:16,050 --> 02:03:18,450
to say that it was an intentional mess. It relates

1573
02:03:18,450 --> 02:03:21,250
to, uh, ensuring be it the public or council did

1574
02:03:21,330 --> 02:03:23,570
not have that touch point. Uh, I think there has

1575
02:03:23,570 --> 02:03:27,810
been an intense pressure from the province with respect to

1576
02:03:28,130 --> 02:03:30,610
ensuring that we can meet those timelines within the grant.

1577
02:03:30,530 --> 02:03:33,570
So I think that's certainly affected some of the decision

1578
02:03:33,810 --> 02:03:37,330
making that it ultimately affect the bundled nature of these

1579
02:03:37,410 --> 02:03:40,770
projects. But regardless, a checkpoint would counsel and it would

1580
02:03:40,770 --> 02:03:45,490
have been an appropriate point or an appropriate thing to

1581
02:03:45,490 --> 02:03:48,130
do from both an operational and from a governance perspective.

1582
02:03:49,611 --> 02:03:52,171
Now moving forward. And I think, um, I once again,

1583
02:03:52,091 --> 02:03:53,771
I don't want to go into great detail and I'll

1584
02:03:53,931 --> 02:03:56,331
leave it with members of council post any questions within

1585
02:03:56,491 --> 02:03:59,211
the body of the report. But I think moving forward,

1586
02:03:59,211 --> 02:04:02,491
I think in reflecting on this experience with respect to

1587
02:04:02,491 --> 02:04:04,731
these projects, I think there have been a number of

1588
02:04:04,811 --> 02:04:07,691
controls that were instituted as part of the, uh, earlier

1589
02:04:08,011 --> 02:04:10,891
report on the overage and to which they've been noted

1590
02:04:11,131 --> 02:04:14,411
as being looking at discontinuing the practice of bundling the

1591
02:04:14,491 --> 02:04:17,211
projects. So that would be, that is one effort in

1592
02:04:17,211 --> 02:04:19,611
which there is now those clear lines to say in

1593
02:04:19,691 --> 02:04:22,491
which there isn't over dissociated with a project that we

1594
02:04:22,571 --> 02:04:28,420
would automatically trigger that request for a budgetary amendment. Now

1595
02:04:28,580 --> 02:04:30,900
the additional one or the next piece that has already

1596
02:04:30,980 --> 02:04:33,380
been noted was for additional sign - offs for expenses

1597
02:04:33,620 --> 02:04:35,700
in excess of 500, 000 prior to the board of

1598
02:04:35,860 --> 02:04:38,820
attenders. So that's been another control that's been instituted to

1599
02:04:39,060 --> 02:04:44,340
reflect upon the experience of for these bundled projects. Now

1600
02:04:44,660 --> 02:04:48,980
some other ads certainly in reviewing the practices and how

1601
02:04:49,060 --> 02:04:53,060
this process did unfold for the respective projects include looking

1602
02:04:53,060 --> 02:04:56,020
at more, and I think the Tomley as it relates

1603
02:04:56,100 --> 02:04:58,740
to review of the staff template going to, going to

1604
02:04:59,060 --> 02:05:01,060
counsel at a later point, particularly in alignment with the

1605
02:05:01,220 --> 02:05:04,180
new strategic plan is ensuring that there is more of

1606
02:05:04,500 --> 02:05:06,500
a onus or at least a more an ability to

1607
02:05:07,140 --> 02:05:12,340
effectively document and address risks pertaining to projects, particularly of

1608
02:05:12,340 --> 02:05:15,780
those that are the scale and magnitude that we are

1609
02:05:15,780 --> 02:05:18,660
currently dealing with here today. So for example, it's looking

1610
02:05:18,820 --> 02:05:21,220
at when a report is coming forward and over a

1611
02:05:21,220 --> 02:05:23,460
G expectation, I think, which is fair that, you know,

1612
02:05:23,940 --> 02:05:25,620
it's not as if council is going to grant the

1613
02:05:25,860 --> 02:05:28,740
additional dollars is to say, what from a staff angle

1614
02:05:28,900 --> 02:05:31,300
did we do to look at being pressure in terms

1615
02:05:31,220 --> 02:05:33,540
of working with the consolidance that we have retained for

1616
02:05:33,620 --> 02:05:36,900
the project or even internally to understand, could they redesign

1617
02:05:37,220 --> 02:05:40,020
shifts? Could they remodifications? Or there could be, uh, other

1618
02:05:40,180 --> 02:05:42,660
ways in which some of this cost burned and, uh,

1619
02:05:43,220 --> 02:05:44,740
that, uh, when it comes to an overage can be

1620
02:05:44,820 --> 02:05:47,780
reduced. So when we look at being fiscally sustainable in

1621
02:05:47,700 --> 02:05:50,740
the future, that certainly is something that can be, uh,

1622
02:05:51,540 --> 02:05:55,566
that is front and center to any decision making. The

1623
02:05:55,646 --> 02:05:57,966
next piece, and I think is, is an important one

1624
02:05:58,126 --> 02:06:01,086
as well is that, uh, is exploring the, the, the

1625
02:06:01,246 --> 02:06:05,086
ability to have triggers with respect to value engineering exercises.

1626
02:06:05,006 --> 02:06:08,526
So when, uh, there was that exploration of, or at

1627
02:06:08,446 --> 02:06:11,566
least identifying the value engineering exercise for this project or

1628
02:06:11,646 --> 02:06:14,446
for these bundled projects, uh, the thinking and when we

1629
02:06:14,526 --> 02:06:17,246
engage, the consultant was at another municipalities depending on the

1630
02:06:17,406 --> 02:06:19,726
scale of the project, uh, that there are those triggers

1631
02:06:20,126 --> 02:06:23,246
and those thresholds which you automatically do a value engineering

1632
02:06:23,486 --> 02:06:26,366
exercise. So I think ingraining that practice within the town

1633
02:06:26,766 --> 02:06:29,566
is I think a sound practice to do. And we'll

1634
02:06:29,726 --> 02:06:32,766
ultimately also, um, allow for a fresh set of eyes

1635
02:06:32,846 --> 02:06:35,406
to identify things to which, um, be it for staff

1636
02:06:35,646 --> 02:06:38,206
or the consultant set often we, we may use on

1637
02:06:38,206 --> 02:06:40,526
a regular basis. May not be so apparent. So I

1638
02:06:40,446 --> 02:06:43,006
think it's always good to have that, that type of

1639
02:06:43,246 --> 02:06:45,966
third party, Matt may be able to challenge the assumptions

1640
02:06:46,126 --> 02:06:48,686
that may be going into these different designs. And depending

1641
02:06:48,686 --> 02:06:52,286
on the value engineering exercise that is to unfold with

1642
02:06:52,926 --> 02:06:55,566
particularly with a focus on the Mill Street pumping station,

1643
02:06:55,726 --> 02:07:00,446
there may be the opportunities to find those efficiencies or

1644
02:07:00,446 --> 02:07:02,926
really to see where that, uh, that this exercise is

1645
02:07:03,086 --> 02:07:06,613
one that, uh, certainly will have value moving forward. Uh,

1646
02:07:06,613 --> 02:07:10,693
and then lastly, and I think that's within the contents

1647
02:07:10,693 --> 02:07:12,853
of the staff report as well is ensuring that when

1648
02:07:13,173 --> 02:07:16,933
there are award forms to be signed, uh, by senior

1649
02:07:17,013 --> 02:07:18,853
staff, you know, you do look at in having that

1650
02:07:19,573 --> 02:07:22,293
once again, a clear picture of what that risk is

1651
02:07:22,293 --> 02:07:24,453
to be. And I think when you look at that,

1652
02:07:24,533 --> 02:07:27,093
the timeline or at least the timing between the bane

1653
02:07:27,253 --> 02:07:30,693
gray street linear works being awarded and understanding that once

1654
02:07:30,933 --> 02:07:33,333
these works are awarded, there's an inevitable. There is this

1655
02:07:33,493 --> 02:07:36,213
tie over to the Mill Street pumping station based on

1656
02:07:36,293 --> 02:07:38,613
some of the design and based on some of the,

1657
02:07:38,533 --> 02:07:40,693
uh, the, uh, the works that would be carried out

1658
02:07:40,773 --> 02:07:43,573
within that scope to which we now have minimal ability

1659
02:07:43,653 --> 02:07:47,493
to, to make any further or significant engineering shifts or

1660
02:07:47,573 --> 02:07:50,613
looking at, uh, how we affect the timing. So I

1661
02:07:50,613 --> 02:07:53,573
think that's another area in which there could be some,

1662
02:07:53,733 --> 02:07:56,533
some improvement and with respect to controls. But generally speaking,

1663
02:07:56,533 --> 02:07:58,533
I think one of the big pieces, at least on

1664
02:07:58,853 --> 02:08:01,973
from, from my end and certainly something that, uh, you

1665
02:08:01,893 --> 02:08:05,333
know, I need to be responsible for moving forward is

1666
02:08:05,333 --> 02:08:08,053
ensuring that we are carrying out the existing practices and

1667
02:08:08,213 --> 02:08:12,293
processes in which that includes timely and early reporting to

1668
02:08:12,453 --> 02:08:15,333
council and work in collectively to find solutions to these

1669
02:08:15,893 --> 02:08:18,533
projects that ultimately are going to drive our goals, whether

1670
02:08:18,693 --> 02:08:21,973
it be for an asset management perspective or looking at,

1671
02:08:21,893 --> 02:08:25,813
uh, driving or ensuring, we're accommodating the growth patterns in

1672
02:08:25,733 --> 02:08:28,293
the community and ensuring we're doing that in a, in

1673
02:08:28,373 --> 02:08:31,493
a responsible way. So, uh, with that, I might conclude

1674
02:08:31,653 --> 02:08:35,013
my presentation and comments with respect to the staff report

1675
02:08:35,253 --> 02:08:37,333
and happy to take any comments or questions for members

1676
02:08:37,333 --> 02:08:40,293
of council. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Smith, or CAO

1677
02:08:40,373 --> 02:08:44,293
Smith. I'm going to, I see Madam Clerk has raised

1678
02:08:44,613 --> 02:08:47,653
that the deputy mayor has joined the meeting. That's correct,

1679
02:08:47,573 --> 02:08:50,213
Mr. Chair. I did not, uh, want to interrupt. Um,

1680
02:08:51,093 --> 02:08:53,333
the deputy mayor joined the meeting at 1125. Thank you.

1681
02:08:53,973 --> 02:08:57,973
Okay. Thank you. So we'll go to Councillor Maxwell first.

1682
02:08:57,973 --> 02:09:05,148
Councillor Maxwell. I think that's you. Jeremy. So I have

1683
02:09:05,148 --> 02:09:07,308
a comment and then I have a question to the

1684
02:09:07,388 --> 02:09:13,176
CAL. Go ahead. So the role of like any organization

1685
02:09:14,056 --> 02:09:16,536
is to protect its membership. And in this case, it's

1686
02:09:16,856 --> 02:09:24,289
a taxpayer. So how will we be shifting risk and

1687
02:09:24,289 --> 02:09:28,492
liability away from the taxpayer in the future. Will we

1688
02:09:28,492 --> 02:09:35,145
be using a collaborative risk. Sharing between consultants and the

1689
02:09:35,465 --> 02:09:40,158
contractors in the near future here. Because you said you

1690
02:09:40,158 --> 02:09:47,117
were going to implement. Larger degree of control mechanisms. CAO

1691
02:09:47,277 --> 02:09:50,778
Smith. Yeah. Strew the chair in relation to, I think,

1692
02:09:50,778 --> 02:09:52,858
uh, and this is where, you know, obviously as we

1693
02:09:52,938 --> 02:09:54,858
still do that deeper dive in terms of funding these

1694
02:09:55,098 --> 02:09:58,538
projects, moving forward, I think I'd paramount is ensuring that

1695
02:09:58,698 --> 02:10:02,778
we are responsible with the responsible in terms of taxpayer

1696
02:10:02,858 --> 02:10:06,778
dollars and ensuring that the revenue sources that, uh, generally,

1697
02:10:06,778 --> 02:10:11,418
can support these projects are in a, in a good

1698
02:10:11,578 --> 02:10:14,618
state. So for example, DC revenue is, is, is certainly

1699
02:10:14,618 --> 02:10:17,658
very significant. These projects are DC eligible to which we

1700
02:10:17,818 --> 02:10:20,458
want to ensure that we have reserves. They're driven by

1701
02:10:20,938 --> 02:10:24,458
those projects or those developments to which, uh, have, uh,

1702
02:10:25,098 --> 02:10:28,298
we, we are creating quite a significant level of demand

1703
02:10:28,298 --> 02:10:31,658
on those different types of assets. So that's one piece.

1704
02:10:31,578 --> 02:10:34,058
We also have to look at it with relation to,

1705
02:10:33,978 --> 02:10:37,258
uh, keeping ensuring be a utter wastewater reserves or other

1706
02:10:37,338 --> 02:10:40,058
reserves are well in a sustainable and a state in

1707
02:10:40,058 --> 02:10:43,978
which we're continually ensuring that, uh, over the long term,

1708
02:10:43,898 --> 02:10:45,658
um, that they are put in a place in which

1709
02:10:45,738 --> 02:10:48,298
when we have these types of projects that come online,

1710
02:10:48,218 --> 02:10:50,698
we're prepared to, to use those, uh, those reserves without

1711
02:10:51,258 --> 02:10:53,978
collapsing them in their entirety. So those are from a

1712
02:10:54,058 --> 02:10:56,378
financial angle. I think that's where I think we look

1713
02:10:56,378 --> 02:10:59,418
to prepare, or at least protect those, uh, those, uh,

1714
02:10:59,498 --> 02:11:02,538
those taxpayer dollars. But when it comes to contractual performance

1715
02:11:03,018 --> 02:11:06,058
and, and sharing of that risk with the consonance and

1716
02:11:06,058 --> 02:11:08,618
absolutely, I think when it comes to these projects and

1717
02:11:08,698 --> 02:11:10,218
to say, I wouldn't, I think it would be remiss

1718
02:11:10,218 --> 02:11:13,338
to say that staff don't challenge consoles in terms of

1719
02:11:14,058 --> 02:11:17,498
assumptions with respect to design or with respect to how,

1720
02:11:17,418 --> 02:11:20,938
you know, things are being calculated for prospective costs on

1721
02:11:21,098 --> 02:11:23,578
different things. I think that does happen. Uh, but I

1722
02:11:23,498 --> 02:11:25,978
think we are, we are and will continue to be

1723
02:11:26,058 --> 02:11:29,178
looking at ways, whether it be for the contracts at

1724
02:11:29,178 --> 02:11:32,858
the town, have in terms of retaining different console contractors

1725
02:11:33,658 --> 02:11:36,778
is ensuring that, uh, there are appropriate performance mechanisms in

1726
02:11:36,778 --> 02:11:39,978
there. And that we're ensuring that, um, there are elements

1727
02:11:40,058 --> 02:11:44,458
such as value engineering that is included within these scopes,

1728
02:11:44,378 --> 02:11:47,338
uh, we, we, we, uh, we can once again make

1729
02:11:47,418 --> 02:11:50,538
sure that we're getting bang for a dollar while at

1730
02:11:50,538 --> 02:11:53,098
the same time still being able to realize outcomes for

1731
02:11:53,258 --> 02:11:56,138
the town and for the community that, uh, are going

1732
02:11:56,058 --> 02:11:58,218
to ensure that we don't have to say tear up

1733
02:11:58,298 --> 02:12:00,378
that pipe or we don't have to rebuild that pumping

1734
02:12:00,458 --> 02:12:03,738
station, say in five years time that these, these, these

1735
02:12:03,978 --> 02:12:07,418
assets are built and they're maintained in a way that's

1736
02:12:07,498 --> 02:12:10,998
going to sustain us for over the longterm. Follow up

1737
02:12:11,158 --> 02:12:15,717
Councillor Maxwell. No, that's fine for now. Okay. Thank you,

1738
02:12:15,637 --> 02:12:19,383
Councillor Maxwell. Uh, Mr. Deputy Mayor, go ahead. Uh, thank

1739
02:12:19,383 --> 02:12:21,863
you, Councillor McKinley, as the chair, uh, through you to

1740
02:12:21,863 --> 02:12:24,343
the CAO. Thank you for the report. There's a few

1741
02:12:24,503 --> 02:12:27,434
aspects in here. Which I question. I'm just looking at

1742
02:12:27,754 --> 02:12:29,594
number one is we keep going back to the fact

1743
02:12:29,754 --> 02:12:32,954
that saying, well, we did a class C. I wasn't

1744
02:12:33,034 --> 02:12:35,754
sure about class A. Shouldn't that have been on a

1745
02:12:35,754 --> 02:12:37,754
project this large? Wouldn't that have shouldn't that be the

1746
02:12:37,994 --> 02:12:40,794
norm? Um, other than the exception on a go forward

1747
02:12:41,034 --> 02:12:44,074
basis, um, with I would assume I'm not an engineer,

1748
02:12:43,994 --> 02:12:45,674
but I'm assuming project in tens of millions of dollars

1749
02:12:46,714 --> 02:12:49,354
would normally be a class A. Now from what I've

1750
02:12:49,434 --> 02:12:51,754
learned over the past few months, uh, once we learned

1751
02:12:51,834 --> 02:12:53,994
about this project. So that would have been, that would

1752
02:12:54,074 --> 02:12:58,983
be my first question. Um, to the CAO. CO Smith?

1753
02:12:58,983 --> 02:13:00,743
Uh, yes, truly chair. I would say it's a fairly

1754
02:13:01,383 --> 02:13:03,783
and certainly operatious staff can, can also jump in here

1755
02:13:04,503 --> 02:13:07,143
or certainly that, uh, that, uh, it is fairly standard

1756
02:13:07,223 --> 02:13:11,383
practice with respect to that, that, uh, triage or that,

1757
02:13:11,303 --> 02:13:14,343
uh, moving through those different class estimates because on the

1758
02:13:14,503 --> 02:13:17,703
basis in which a lot of these infrastructure projects, they're

1759
02:13:17,703 --> 02:13:20,983
not done in say, uh, designed and constructed in a

1760
02:13:21,063 --> 02:13:23,623
given year that they are going to be, especially when

1761
02:13:23,703 --> 02:13:26,743
we look at capturing that within our, our, our municipal

1762
02:13:26,743 --> 02:13:29,143
budgets that these are often multi - year endeavors. And

1763
02:13:29,143 --> 02:13:30,823
then we start with the class C based on the

1764
02:13:30,903 --> 02:13:35,383
fact that, you know, market conditions, cost of materials, the,

1765
02:13:35,543 --> 02:13:38,503
the, the other further design elements that may come to

1766
02:13:38,503 --> 02:13:40,663
be, those are all a big, uh, big things that

1767
02:13:41,063 --> 02:13:43,703
change once you actually get into more of that, that

1768
02:13:44,183 --> 02:13:47,303
90 percent engineering design versus when you're a more of

1769
02:13:47,223 --> 02:13:50,263
the conceptual stage or in that 30 percent piece So

1770
02:13:50,423 --> 02:13:53,463
it is fairly standard with respect to, I think, um,

1771
02:13:53,863 --> 02:13:56,903
the, the sequencing of this ideally, I think certainly you

1772
02:13:56,983 --> 02:13:59,383
would have the moment you embark on engineering. You would

1773
02:13:59,383 --> 02:14:00,983
have a very much a clear portrait of what those

1774
02:14:01,303 --> 02:14:03,063
costs are going to be. But the reality is, is

1775
02:14:03,063 --> 02:14:06,903
that they do take time to, uh, to fully materialize.

1776
02:14:06,823 --> 02:14:08,423
But I think that's where I go to my point

1777
02:14:08,663 --> 02:14:11,783
around ensuring that we as staff are keep that, that

1778
02:14:11,863 --> 02:14:15,063
risk analysis or at risk management philosophy top in center

1779
02:14:15,143 --> 02:14:17,543
to say, even when we have class C estimates in

1780
02:14:17,623 --> 02:14:21,143
place and when we know there is still that variation

1781
02:14:21,383 --> 02:14:24,423
or that understanding that this could actually be, and maybe

1782
02:14:24,503 --> 02:14:27,543
there's some assumptions that maybe other costs could be lower.

1783
02:14:27,463 --> 02:14:29,383
There's still enough of a variability here that we should

1784
02:14:29,703 --> 02:14:32,983
flag and we should escalate this further, uh, to, uh,

1785
02:14:33,143 --> 02:14:35,223
to make sure council's aware and make sure the general

1786
02:14:35,383 --> 02:14:39,303
public is aware that, uh, we can accommodate, uh, this,

1787
02:14:39,223 --> 02:14:41,223
uh, in, in a mean or within the means of

1788
02:14:41,223 --> 02:14:46,888
the municipality. Follow up, uh, Mr. Epidemir? Yes. Yes. Thank

1789
02:14:46,888 --> 02:14:48,888
you, Mr. Chair. Through you again to the CEO. Thank

1790
02:14:48,888 --> 02:14:53,928
you for that. Um, having checkpoints red flags along the

1791
02:14:53,928 --> 02:14:57,688
way. Then something simple like, and I say simple in

1792
02:14:57,688 --> 02:14:59,848
a project that's large. I'll have 150, 000 dollars of

1793
02:14:59,928 --> 02:15:03,688
value engineering That to me, the project should have included

1794
02:15:03,768 --> 02:15:10,008
that from the beginning. Because then if at the time

1795
02:15:10,328 --> 02:15:13,128
at 40 million dollar project, if it could find, you

1796
02:15:13,048 --> 02:15:16,968
know, 800, 000 million, million, five worth of efficiencies, that

1797
02:15:16,968 --> 02:15:20,408
should be, again, the norm, not the exception. And if

1798
02:15:20,488 --> 02:15:23,688
we did have those touch points, um, along the way,

1799
02:15:24,008 --> 02:15:27,688
then council would be able to, you know, and, and

1800
02:15:27,928 --> 02:15:30,248
staff together, I wouldn't be able to, number one, notify

1801
02:15:30,248 --> 02:15:33,928
the public. But number two, be able to look for

1802
02:15:33,928 --> 02:15:36,728
opportunities such as value engineering, things like that on a

1803
02:15:36,728 --> 02:15:40,328
go forward basis. So when we do projects like this,

1804
02:15:40,648 --> 02:15:42,008
in the future, they know this project needs to be

1805
02:15:42,088 --> 02:15:44,968
done. So, um, regardless of the huge funding or not,

1806
02:15:44,888 --> 02:15:47,528
the use funding is a huge aspect of it. But

1807
02:15:47,608 --> 02:15:51,928
to blame the huge funding portion, uh, the huge funding

1808
02:15:52,888 --> 02:15:58,408
receipt of monies based on the chronological events that happened,

1809
02:15:58,328 --> 02:16:00,248
you know, that doesn't sit the best with me because

1810
02:16:00,488 --> 02:16:01,768
only because we know we had to do the work

1811
02:16:01,928 --> 02:16:03,928
anyways. And I would have really liked to have known

1812
02:16:04,088 --> 02:16:05,848
that, you know, at the end of the day, like

1813
02:16:05,928 --> 02:16:07,448
I said in the beginning, if it was just a

1814
02:16:07,688 --> 02:16:08,968
class, we were going to end up at a class

1815
02:16:09,048 --> 02:16:11,128
A, then let me know that because the class C

1816
02:16:11,448 --> 02:16:15,048
only have 20 to 25 percent escalation costs, you know,

1817
02:16:15,368 --> 02:16:17,448
where, you know, we're seeing 19 million dollars, which is

1818
02:16:18,568 --> 02:16:22,008
35 on percent. So again, I'm not looking for blame.

1819
02:16:21,928 --> 02:16:25,768
I'm just looking to say, if we include value engineering,

1820
02:16:26,008 --> 02:16:28,168
we should do for the beginning. We should have further

1821
02:16:28,168 --> 02:16:31,208
touch points, um, at the, at the any sniff of

1822
02:16:31,208 --> 02:16:33,448
anything that's, that's going sideways, we should be able to

1823
02:16:33,448 --> 02:16:36,008
get on board with that. So I guess my, you

1824
02:16:35,928 --> 02:16:37,768
know, after halt my question, as you answer the one

1825
02:16:37,848 --> 02:16:43,608
about the, um, uh, but the assessment from the classes,

1826
02:16:43,528 --> 02:16:46,648
will value engineering, um, along a sign offsetting like this

1827
02:16:46,888 --> 02:16:49,288
all be part and parcel of major infrastructure projects like

1828
02:16:49,368 --> 02:16:53,128
this as we go forward to help mitigate this type

1829
02:16:53,208 --> 02:16:57,128
of, um, major project efficiency or differential in the future.

1830
02:16:58,641 --> 02:17:02,001
CEO Smith. Yeah. Through the chair, certainly I think internally

1831
02:17:02,241 --> 02:17:05,201
we've been having conversations of embedding those, those, uh, those

1832
02:17:05,361 --> 02:17:07,281
thresholds. I will say that it's not as if for

1833
02:17:07,521 --> 02:17:11,441
operation staff or otherwise, which value engineering or optimization studies

1834
02:17:11,521 --> 02:17:14,481
have not been done in the past. But I will

1835
02:17:14,561 --> 02:17:17,361
say yes. I think it is important. I think what

1836
02:17:17,441 --> 02:17:20,801
is, um, not apparent at this present time is that

1837
02:17:21,041 --> 02:17:23,201
clear line is to when you do one. Right. It's

1838
02:17:23,201 --> 02:17:25,601
to understand that there is that, uh, that, that trigger

1839
02:17:25,921 --> 02:17:28,321
we can't have instituted. And that is something I think

1840
02:17:28,641 --> 02:17:30,561
on my mind or my end too is to make

1841
02:17:30,561 --> 02:17:34,081
that commitment to, uh, to further ingrain and go from

1842
02:17:34,401 --> 02:17:37,121
the, but I will also maybe make to Deputy Mary

1843
02:17:37,201 --> 02:17:41,681
to your point. I should have, um, maybe reframed at

1844
02:17:41,601 --> 02:17:43,761
least my comments with respect to the, to the Hughes

1845
02:17:43,841 --> 02:17:45,761
grant because I certainly do not want to blame, I

1846
02:17:45,681 --> 02:17:47,601
think to say that the grant is a basis to

1847
02:17:47,601 --> 02:17:50,641
which this is a situation we find ourselves in. I

1848
02:17:50,561 --> 02:17:53,361
think the grant has been a tremendous opportunity into which

1849
02:17:53,841 --> 02:17:55,921
given the work needs to happen in the absence of

1850
02:17:55,921 --> 02:18:00,561
this grant, we be a much more difficult situation. I

1851
02:18:00,481 --> 02:18:03,841
think currently. So I think that's certainly I should provide

1852
02:18:04,081 --> 02:18:06,321
some, some clarity with in that regard. And I think

1853
02:18:06,561 --> 02:18:09,601
to your point is that, um, even when we experience

1854
02:18:09,841 --> 02:18:13,121
those timelines and those pressures is to ensure and work

1855
02:18:13,121 --> 02:18:15,121
with the province at an early point in time to

1856
02:18:15,361 --> 02:18:18,241
know that, Hey, these are these, these risks here. And

1857
02:18:18,321 --> 02:18:21,521
these are the, the, the, uh, cost overruns that were

1858
02:18:21,521 --> 02:18:25,441
perspectively may potentially face. And I think it was director

1859
02:18:25,601 --> 02:18:28,481
Quinlan made the comment earlier when there is that engagement

1860
02:18:28,641 --> 02:18:30,561
with the province, some of the feedback is, well, that

1861
02:18:30,641 --> 02:18:33,121
is something that, you know, when it comes to extensions,

1862
02:18:33,281 --> 02:18:35,681
there might be a little more accommodation for opposed to

1863
02:18:36,321 --> 02:18:38,641
you didn't move on a project in a timely way.

1864
02:18:38,561 --> 02:18:40,081
So that creates a bit of a, uh, more of

1865
02:18:40,161 --> 02:18:42,881
a concern. So, uh, I just wanted to probably maybe

1866
02:18:42,961 --> 02:18:45,441
some, some clary with respect to that, uh, some of

1867
02:18:45,361 --> 02:18:47,441
my comments. I might have not framed in the best

1868
02:18:47,681 --> 02:18:52,773
of, uh, best of ways. Okay. Thank you. Thank you.

1869
02:18:53,573 --> 02:18:58,104
Councillor Porter, go ahead. Uh, yes. And through the chair.

1870
02:18:58,024 --> 02:19:01,224
So I just want to, before I go into my

1871
02:19:01,384 --> 02:19:04,504
comments, I'd just like to build on, um, talk about

1872
02:19:04,664 --> 02:19:08,184
the Hughes funding. Cause that was at Roma. It was

1873
02:19:08,344 --> 02:19:10,264
announced in one of the workshops. And I was sitting

1874
02:19:10,424 --> 02:19:14,024
there at the time. And just to, not to make

1875
02:19:14,104 --> 02:19:16,904
any excuses, just to set the context. Is the competition

1876
02:19:17,304 --> 02:19:20,904
for that money was extremely fierce? Because I remember having,

1877
02:19:20,824 --> 02:19:23,384
listened to the presentation when it came to the Q

1878
02:19:23,384 --> 02:19:28,504
and A section asking the ministry representative. So in effect,

1879
02:19:28,504 --> 02:19:32,344
when you have this envelope of money, if you awarded

1880
02:19:32,504 --> 02:19:35,624
each project to the maximum, you wouldn't even award a

1881
02:19:35,624 --> 02:19:39,864
project in a province that has over 400 municipalities. So

1882
02:19:40,104 --> 02:19:43,864
the competition was fierce. Just that is, and he didn't

1883
02:19:43,864 --> 02:19:47,064
really like my comment because it was referenced in a

1884
02:19:47,144 --> 02:19:50,504
subsequent delegation that he remembered me, but that was the

1885
02:19:50,664 --> 02:19:53,304
fact. So the competition was fierce. Uh, I just want

1886
02:19:53,224 --> 02:19:58,344
to make that clear. Um, my take on the report.

1887
02:19:58,264 --> 02:20:00,664
And I thank you, CO Smith, for, um, for doing

1888
02:20:00,744 --> 02:20:04,664
this, um, it's not a report. I'm sure you welcome

1889
02:20:04,744 --> 02:20:09,472
the opportunity to do. I see that there was really,

1890
02:20:09,392 --> 02:20:13,712
um, several three, what I would describe as critical failures

1891
02:20:14,192 --> 02:20:18,670
in communication and transparency. There were three specific points. If

1892
02:20:18,670 --> 02:20:20,910
you have a process map and a process map, there

1893
02:20:21,070 --> 02:20:24,110
are diamonds. Diamonds are decision points where people decide to

1894
02:20:24,190 --> 02:20:28,242
do something. And there's three. Cause we have heard earlier

1895
02:20:28,482 --> 02:20:32,082
today with the previous report about the confidence in class

1896
02:20:32,162 --> 02:20:34,642
A estimates. This is what we're at to Mill Street

1897
02:20:34,882 --> 02:20:39,122
that's going forward. So they, the hundred percent estimates, we

1898
02:20:39,122 --> 02:20:41,762
know from the consultants report, we're going to come back

1899
02:20:41,762 --> 02:20:46,002
to the town. That's in the public information sessions. And

1900
02:20:46,242 --> 02:20:49,042
I've also clarified at an earlier meeting that coming back

1901
02:20:49,202 --> 02:20:52,082
to the town, man, coming back to staff, not counsel.

1902
02:20:52,567 --> 02:20:55,527
So those would have been done and they would have

1903
02:20:55,687 --> 02:20:59,776
had a dollar value. So I ask at that point,

1904
02:20:59,696 --> 02:21:02,096
when you looked at the three tenders that had to

1905
02:21:02,096 --> 02:21:04,016
go out, the three projects that had to go out

1906
02:21:05,056 --> 02:21:09,117
in the bundle were the estimates. Would they leave you

1907
02:21:09,197 --> 02:21:13,030
sufficient money. To finish the rest of the bundle project?

1908
02:21:12,950 --> 02:21:16,230
So that was one. The second decision point was when

1909
02:21:16,390 --> 02:21:19,430
the tenders came back. You're looking at the price that

1910
02:21:20,790 --> 02:21:24,630
the contractors are asking, asking for that it's another decision

1911
02:21:25,030 --> 02:21:28,710
point. And then finally you make a decision. The third

1912
02:21:28,870 --> 02:21:31,510
decision as I see was the actual awarding of the

1913
02:21:31,910 --> 02:21:35,590
contract. And I would just, um, really look for some

1914
02:21:35,830 --> 02:21:42,310
reassurance that the, um, the purchasing Goods and Services policy

1915
02:21:42,870 --> 02:21:52,765
was adhered to. Through Chair, and yes, that's

1916
02:21:53,005 --> 02:21:54,845
where I think when we go back to that practice

1917
02:21:54,925 --> 02:21:57,885
of the bundle projects is that technically from when you

1918
02:21:57,885 --> 02:22:01,005
looked at that whole budget in itself that with those

1919
02:22:01,245 --> 02:22:04,925
between the Craiglie Sewer Lift Station and the Bay and

1920
02:22:04,925 --> 02:22:06,925
Gray Street Linear Works, at that point in time when

1921
02:22:07,005 --> 02:22:10,605
those were tendered, there was available budget. However, there was

1922
02:22:10,925 --> 02:22:14,605
recognition, I think, at the time after Baying Gray was

1923
02:22:14,685 --> 02:22:16,685
that were awarded to which we were not going to

1924
02:22:16,685 --> 02:22:20,125
have enough budget for Mill Street to which, and this

1925
02:22:20,125 --> 02:22:22,685
is where the challenge becomes, is that with Mill Street

1926
02:22:22,845 --> 02:22:25,085
and some of the scope of work connected to Bay

1927
02:22:25,005 --> 02:22:29,565
and Gray creates a pressing situation with respect to time

1928
02:22:29,805 --> 02:22:32,285
and with respect to design given that now you're going

1929
02:22:32,205 --> 02:22:35,565
to back to council when there's elements of that scope

1930
02:22:35,565 --> 02:22:37,485
of work for mill that you no longer can change

1931
02:22:38,045 --> 02:22:41,805
because you started the Baying Grey Works. But having said

1932
02:22:41,885 --> 02:22:44,605
that, once again, it is, yes, to the point in

1933
02:22:44,605 --> 02:22:49,005
which there should have been between one's we understood, even

1934
02:22:49,005 --> 02:22:51,725
around the Craig Leaf Station, despite the fact that we

1935
02:22:51,885 --> 02:22:55,005
still had available budget even after that singular project being

1936
02:22:55,165 --> 02:22:58,205
awarded, that we still should have had that checkpoint with

1937
02:22:58,205 --> 02:23:03,509
council. Yeah, go ahead. Yes, through the chair. So thank

1938
02:23:03,589 --> 02:23:05,269
you for saying that, because at the end of the

1939
02:23:05,349 --> 02:23:09,029
day, you have a pot of money of 34. 7

1940
02:23:09,269 --> 02:23:12,629
million dollars. You award attender that money comes off that

1941
02:23:12,789 --> 02:23:15,749
budget line. And you know this is what you have

1942
02:23:15,829 --> 02:23:18,709
left, and you're looking at, if you have an awarded,

1943
02:23:18,629 --> 02:23:23,909
you know the class A engineering, you put out, I

1944
02:23:24,069 --> 02:23:26,709
could just speak for myself. I've never ever been associated

1945
02:23:26,789 --> 02:23:28,229
with a tender that didn't go out that I didn't

1946
02:23:28,389 --> 02:23:31,189
have a number in my head based on a reasonable

1947
02:23:31,589 --> 02:23:36,229
expectation. Then the attender come back, you have a number.

1948
02:23:36,149 --> 02:23:38,149
You know the bottom line on the spreadsheet. This is

1949
02:23:38,069 --> 02:23:40,629
what you have to play with. So I'm just saying

1950
02:23:41,189 --> 02:23:45,269
there were, as I read the report, there were decision

1951
02:23:45,349 --> 02:23:49,429
points where people decided to move forward where I think

1952
02:23:50,789 --> 02:23:53,654
a detour or two council would have been appropriate. Thank

1953
02:23:53,654 --> 02:23:58,504
you. See Osman. I know through the chair. I think

1954
02:23:58,904 --> 02:24:00,824
Nano Director Quinlan has her hand up. It might be

1955
02:24:00,984 --> 02:24:06,266
a provision comment with respect to procurement. Director. Kremlin. Go

1956
02:24:06,266 --> 02:24:11,803
ahead. Thank you, C. O. Smith, and through the chair.

1957
02:24:11,723 --> 02:24:15,563
I do just want to add that what C. O.

1958
02:24:15,563 --> 02:24:17,723
Smith has shared is that the timing of the information

1959
02:24:18,363 --> 02:24:22,283
flow is what's really important. The procurement process was followed.

1960
02:24:22,203 --> 02:24:25,883
It was identified upon the award of the Bay and

1961
02:24:25,963 --> 02:24:30,523
Gray Street that, in fact, there would not be enough

1962
02:24:30,843 --> 02:24:33,163
funds to do the next project, which would be the

1963
02:24:33,403 --> 02:24:36,523
Mill Street project. So the expectation there is that we

1964
02:24:36,603 --> 02:24:39,723
would have staff come forward, make the presentation and explain

1965
02:24:39,963 --> 02:24:43,323
why. The problem that, you know, sort of came out

1966
02:24:43,403 --> 02:24:47,163
of this is also that no one knew, or meaning

1967
02:24:48,203 --> 02:24:51,723
finance staff recognizing we were both fairly new at the

1968
02:24:51,723 --> 02:24:54,843
time, did not know what the next portion of that

1969
02:24:55,243 --> 02:24:58,843
project would be. So, um, at the time when the

1970
02:24:59,163 --> 02:25:02,443
Deputy Treasurer reviewed the Bit Award farm, it said he

1971
02:25:02,523 --> 02:25:05,563
very clearly states there will not be sufficient funding for

1972
02:25:05,643 --> 02:25:10,763
the next project. But not recognizing what value that was

1973
02:25:11,323 --> 02:25:14,363
or how much, um, the Mill Street Project would have

1974
02:25:14,443 --> 02:25:17,643
been budgeted for caused a problem too. And that's why

1975
02:25:17,803 --> 02:25:20,523
we're saying as part of the 2025 budget, we don't

1976
02:25:20,763 --> 02:25:24,043
bundle. We can't bundle because it's, it, it, it, it

1977
02:25:24,283 --> 02:25:27,003
eliminates the line of sight from a finance staff perspective

1978
02:25:27,403 --> 02:25:29,483
or anybody that's not directly involved in the project to

1979
02:25:29,563 --> 02:25:32,283
be totally fair. So I think a gain, it's really

1980
02:25:32,363 --> 02:25:36,363
just about the escalation of that information. One staff is

1981
02:25:36,443 --> 02:25:40,843
aware that the project or the updated tender, or pardon

1982
02:25:40,763 --> 02:25:44,443
me, the updated estimates are greater than what was previously

1983
02:25:45,243 --> 02:25:47,963
known. That's the point. That's when we need to understand

1984
02:25:48,283 --> 02:25:56,779
it and it needs to be escalated. Follow it. Through

1985
02:25:56,699 --> 02:26:00,859
the chair, I guess, I mean, we did hear on

1986
02:26:00,859 --> 02:26:08,139
December 15th. Some verbiage around that staff looked for savings.

1987
02:26:09,738 --> 02:26:13,258
I recall at that time saying, what amount of savings

1988
02:26:13,338 --> 02:26:16,618
would make it easier, more palatable to come at us

1989
02:26:16,858 --> 02:26:21,304
for more money. I guess I. M, what I was

1990
02:26:21,384 --> 02:26:23,704
trying to point out, and it has been fed back

1991
02:26:26,024 --> 02:26:30,375
is decisions were made. With full knowledge. There wasn't enough

1992
02:26:30,455 --> 02:26:36,370
money to complete the project. And I can't, I just

1993
02:26:36,370 --> 02:26:42,593
find that really hard. Thanks. Okay. Um, I don't see

1994
02:26:43,393 --> 02:26:46,753
any staff able to add comment to that. So I'm

1995
02:26:46,673 --> 02:26:50,741
going to go to counselor Hope. Go ahead. Yes. Thank

1996
02:26:50,741 --> 02:26:55,541
you. And I hope, uh, it's enshrined in the next

1997
02:26:55,701 --> 02:26:59,941
motion. Some of the comments the council reporter has made.

1998
02:27:00,101 --> 02:27:02,501
I'd like to go to page three of the report.

1999
02:27:02,421 --> 02:27:03,701
By the way, thank you for the report. I think

2000
02:27:03,781 --> 02:27:06,827
it was a good beginning. And it was an interim

2001
02:27:06,827 --> 02:27:10,587
report. Uh, the details that allows us to, uh, at

2002
02:27:10,507 --> 02:27:13,387
least consider where we might want to go. But on

2003
02:27:13,467 --> 02:27:18,987
page three, um, the paragraph two, three is as cost

2004
02:27:19,147 --> 02:27:22,267
pressures or scope changes start to emerge that information should

2005
02:27:22,347 --> 02:27:27,006
be escalated as early as possible. So later on, I'm

2006
02:27:26,926 --> 02:27:28,766
going to ask about how you intend to do that

2007
02:27:29,326 --> 02:27:33,486
through you, the chair, uh, to CO Smith. But beyond

2008
02:27:33,486 --> 02:27:35,726
that, I want to think about our friends on Bay

2009
02:27:35,806 --> 02:27:39,862
Street. And to think about how the origins of this

2010
02:27:40,102 --> 02:27:46,982
project, because the real tragedy here is going way back

2011
02:27:47,622 --> 02:27:50,822
is that council didn't have an opportunity to define where

2012
02:27:51,222 --> 02:27:54,102
the force mean was to go. And now as I

2013
02:27:54,102 --> 02:27:57,142
look at what has happened as a result of where

2014
02:27:57,302 --> 02:27:59,222
the placement of the force mean, I would have loved

2015
02:27:59,382 --> 02:28:03,826
the opportunity. To have, uh, had a go at the

2016
02:28:03,906 --> 02:28:06,946
location of that porous main. Um, and I'm really sorry

2017
02:28:07,506 --> 02:28:10,226
that that was that decision was not made available to

2018
02:28:10,626 --> 02:28:13,826
myself or to my council members. So basically all council

2019
02:28:13,826 --> 02:28:16,466
was told is that there was a forcemain. And apparently

2020
02:28:16,946 --> 02:28:20,546
according to Council Reporters figures is something like eight times.

2021
02:28:20,546 --> 02:28:22,546
There was a reference to force Maine, but we were

2022
02:28:22,626 --> 02:28:26,903
never told the location. Uh, that's way back when long

2023
02:28:26,983 --> 02:28:29,303
before many of the people are in this room. But

2024
02:28:30,103 --> 02:28:34,663
certainly council members, um, are, of course, have been affected

2025
02:28:34,823 --> 02:28:38,823
by that. And the whole problem, I think starts with

2026
02:28:39,063 --> 02:28:42,683
that. So when you talk about as cost pressures or

2027
02:28:42,683 --> 02:28:45,243
scope changes start to emerge that information should be escalated

2028
02:28:45,563 --> 02:28:47,803
as early as possible. A force main decision is not

2029
02:28:48,203 --> 02:28:52,203
a council decision. I understand that. Um, but then should

2030
02:28:52,283 --> 02:28:54,443
we be looking at that? I mean, in other words,

2031
02:28:54,763 --> 02:28:56,443
operations, as I understand it, it was what I was

2032
02:28:56,523 --> 02:28:59,883
told at the time. Operations can make that decision about

2033
02:28:59,963 --> 02:29:03,802
the force main. But as it's turned out, it's very

2034
02:29:03,882 --> 02:29:06,682
much a community decision that I think has had devastating

2035
02:29:06,922 --> 02:29:13,734
results. So, um. Through Mr. Chair, to the CAO, um,

2036
02:29:14,214 --> 02:29:17,574
I'm sure you're working on strategies on how to, what

2037
02:29:17,654 --> 02:29:21,734
is early as possible? Are we going to be considering,

2038
02:29:21,654 --> 02:29:25,014
um, some decisions that may in the past have been

2039
02:29:25,414 --> 02:29:32,094
under operations that become, um, community decisions. Thank you. And

2040
02:29:32,254 --> 02:29:34,814
I have a follow - up afternoon. CEO Smith. Yeah.

2041
02:29:34,974 --> 02:29:37,854
Through the chair and certainly I know, um, you know,

2042
02:29:38,254 --> 02:29:41,134
thinking about the force main project. As we're called to,

2043
02:29:41,134 --> 02:29:42,734
and I think actually that, that is where, you know,

2044
02:29:43,134 --> 02:29:46,094
you look at elements say earlier in design where there

2045
02:29:46,254 --> 02:29:48,974
may be flags or things to which, uh, you know,

2046
02:29:49,454 --> 02:29:51,534
Hey, we're, we realize there may be a variance. Anything

2047
02:29:51,534 --> 02:29:53,534
that at that point in time is a great time

2048
02:29:53,774 --> 02:29:55,934
to actually engage with council just to even at a,

2049
02:29:55,934 --> 02:29:57,534
at a point which may there or may not, you

2050
02:29:57,454 --> 02:30:00,094
know, may not have that certainty, but certainly at least,

2051
02:30:00,014 --> 02:30:03,694
um, it gives assurances that there is at level transparency

2052
02:30:04,974 --> 02:30:08,174
and ability to work with council and finding different solutions.

2053
02:30:08,094 --> 02:30:11,294
But I will say in the context of the force

2054
02:30:11,374 --> 02:30:13,854
man location, I do know that the piece to which

2055
02:30:14,174 --> 02:30:15,934
or the one of the biggest variables there was a

2056
02:30:15,934 --> 02:30:18,574
piece around cost. And we should relocation would have been

2057
02:30:19,134 --> 02:30:21,534
the location that did end up going forward was on

2058
02:30:21,534 --> 02:30:25,374
the basis of it represented the most efficient route to

2059
02:30:25,534 --> 02:30:29,294
which, uh, to realize, I think that those project outcomes.

2060
02:30:29,214 --> 02:30:31,534
Now I think moving forward and, you know, looking at

2061
02:30:31,694 --> 02:30:34,974
how we do our public information sessions or how we,

2062
02:30:34,894 --> 02:30:37,934
uh, when we are at the engineering design stage, which

2063
02:30:38,334 --> 02:30:41,694
there may be counsel direction to say we understand, say,

2064
02:30:41,614 --> 02:30:45,054
the engineering, we understand that there was other options proposed

2065
02:30:45,374 --> 02:30:47,214
into which there might be direction to say is that

2066
02:30:47,534 --> 02:30:50,654
we understand that this may be more costly, but we

2067
02:30:50,734 --> 02:30:52,814
think this might be more of a viable route or

2068
02:30:52,974 --> 02:30:55,774
anything like that. There is oftentimes there might be that

2069
02:30:55,934 --> 02:31:01,294
ability for council to provide that perspective relation to a

2070
02:31:01,534 --> 02:31:04,574
engineering design depending on what the project is. But also

2071
02:31:04,814 --> 02:31:07,854
I will say there are certain projects, for example, pumping

2072
02:31:07,934 --> 02:31:10,814
stations being case in point where oftentimes there is no

2073
02:31:11,054 --> 02:31:14,174
real, um, either have to go with this pump size

2074
02:31:14,174 --> 02:31:16,414
or you don't. Right. And I think there's, there's certain

2075
02:31:16,414 --> 02:31:18,814
pieces of certain projects which I don't think have that

2076
02:31:19,054 --> 02:31:21,694
means or that ability to, uh, to, to do those

2077
02:31:21,934 --> 02:31:26,414
types of designs that might, uh, that might, uh, result

2078
02:31:26,654 --> 02:31:29,694
in some significant pivots. It's just, it's barely black and

2079
02:31:29,774 --> 02:31:32,494
white. But as much as possible, I like to further

2080
02:31:32,494 --> 02:31:35,134
work with, you know, certainly our teams as they work

2081
02:31:35,214 --> 02:31:37,614
on different projects to, to see where there could be

2082
02:31:37,614 --> 02:31:40,734
that engagement to understand the risks that council may see

2083
02:31:40,894 --> 02:31:43,454
that might be different from what staff do. Fundamentally, it's

2084
02:31:43,454 --> 02:31:47,374
about ensuring we're doing, we're putting forward recommendations that our

2085
02:31:47,534 --> 02:31:50,494
sustainable fiscally sustainable. But the other side of it is

2086
02:31:50,734 --> 02:31:53,854
to ensure that council has an ability to know all

2087
02:31:53,934 --> 02:31:57,054
the different variables might be, uh, that might be impacting

2088
02:31:57,374 --> 02:31:59,694
design. And they may be the ones to say, we

2089
02:31:59,774 --> 02:32:02,334
think this option B might be more constantly, but it's,

2090
02:32:02,414 --> 02:32:06,334
it's the one in which from a community impact standpoint

2091
02:32:06,574 --> 02:32:08,494
might be from our end, uh, something that could be

2092
02:32:08,574 --> 02:32:11,694
lessened. So, uh, there is that flexibility, but ultimately does

2093
02:32:11,694 --> 02:32:14,971
depend on the project that is being put forward. Follow

2094
02:32:15,131 --> 02:32:17,131
up, Councillor Hope. Thank you. On this issue, and then

2095
02:32:17,131 --> 02:32:19,691
I have another question. So I'm not talking about the

2096
02:32:19,931 --> 02:32:23,611
relocation. I would like your report to go back to

2097
02:32:23,691 --> 02:32:28,271
the original decision. Which is where counsel was told a

2098
02:32:28,271 --> 02:32:31,231
force mane was being placed. But we were never told

2099
02:32:31,551 --> 02:32:36,021
the exact location. So that's long before your time. And

2100
02:32:36,021 --> 02:32:38,421
I'm not sure of the exact date, but early in

2101
02:32:38,341 --> 02:32:42,261
the early 2000s. If council had been able to have

2102
02:32:42,501 --> 02:32:44,581
a chance to have a look at what the different

2103
02:32:45,781 --> 02:32:48,741
locations could be, I think it would have just changed

2104
02:32:49,061 --> 02:32:51,061
so much. And the trust in the community would not

2105
02:32:51,061 --> 02:32:54,021
have been eroded the way it has been. It just,

2106
02:32:54,021 --> 02:32:58,101
there's just so many reasons why we needed another crack

2107
02:32:58,101 --> 02:33:00,181
at that. There's nothing that can be done now. I'm

2108
02:33:00,341 --> 02:33:04,821
not crying over spilled milk, but in future, uh, I

2109
02:33:04,821 --> 02:33:08,981
would like to make sure that council gets first crack

2110
02:33:09,141 --> 02:33:13,490
at everything. And so in your final report, I'd like

2111
02:33:13,490 --> 02:33:17,423
you to go back that far. The original choice. For

2112
02:33:17,743 --> 02:33:22,046
the forcemain and the lack of community involvement. With that

2113
02:33:22,046 --> 02:33:26,150
choice. That is, I think, fundamental. And I hope that

2114
02:33:26,310 --> 02:33:30,734
it helps in terms of building trust. So I will,

2115
02:33:30,654 --> 02:33:32,574
whoever, you know, I will be enshrining that in the

2116
02:33:32,814 --> 02:33:37,542
motion. How can you get as early as possible? How

2117
02:33:37,702 --> 02:33:41,142
do you see doing that? CAO Smith. Uh, through the

2118
02:33:41,222 --> 02:33:42,982
chair. Yeah. I'll have to put some thought with respect

2119
02:33:43,302 --> 02:33:45,942
to exploring it. I think the, uh, as you noted,

2120
02:33:45,942 --> 02:33:48,982
there's some, some history in terms of say the force,

2121
02:33:48,902 --> 02:33:50,502
Spain itself. It might be more of, and this is

2122
02:33:50,502 --> 02:33:53,222
where I think to the scope of this report and

2123
02:33:53,302 --> 02:33:55,702
investigating, say, the tendering of the works opposed to some

2124
02:33:55,782 --> 02:33:58,262
of the more of the design elements with respect to,

2125
02:33:58,182 --> 02:34:02,022
uh, the, the, the force main itself. Maybe there's some

2126
02:34:02,342 --> 02:34:05,942
value in separating them out. But certainly there's a, uh,

2127
02:34:06,662 --> 02:34:08,982
you could put forward that in the via resolution. And

2128
02:34:09,142 --> 02:34:11,542
I'll look further into it. And then, uh, come back

2129
02:34:11,862 --> 02:34:16,047
to council, uh, just for some, some information. And you

2130
02:34:16,047 --> 02:34:17,887
had another question. Go ahead. Thank you. Thank you. I

2131
02:34:17,967 --> 02:34:27,279
do. Um, I want. It to. Discuss when did finance

2132
02:34:27,439 --> 02:34:32,799
know about the overage at this point. And from what

2133
02:34:33,199 --> 02:34:37,759
I hear, because I think it's important that there's been

2134
02:34:37,999 --> 02:34:41,039
assumptions made that have not been fair is what I

2135
02:34:41,039 --> 02:34:44,079
can, what I can tease out. So I think in

2136
02:34:44,399 --> 02:34:47,999
this, um, at this point, I think we need to

2137
02:34:47,999 --> 02:34:50,319
start thinking about that. Obviously the public is asking for

2138
02:34:50,399 --> 02:34:54,159
that. Uh, and the concern would be. So I want

2139
02:34:54,079 --> 02:34:59,759
to give an opportunity to staff to explain, um, what

2140
02:35:00,479 --> 02:35:03,519
happened in terms of, uh, this project not being included

2141
02:35:03,679 --> 02:35:07,599
in the budget, uh, and what they had to work

2142
02:35:07,599 --> 02:35:09,519
with. Because from what I can see in the report

2143
02:35:09,679 --> 02:35:15,341
here. Information appropriate information was not shared.

2144
02:35:19,640 --> 02:35:21,640
That I can read that on the sentence. And I

2145
02:35:21,640 --> 02:35:25,560
see nod from you, the CAO. So, um, I, I

2146
02:35:25,560 --> 02:35:29,000
would like to open that discussion. And if, if, if

2147
02:35:29,080 --> 02:35:31,080
we can't talk about it a lot today, I would

2148
02:35:31,240 --> 02:35:34,440
certainly like to see, um, all of the questions that

2149
02:35:34,760 --> 02:35:38,840
were raised at the public comment to be included in

2150
02:35:38,920 --> 02:35:41,720
our emotions. So I'll just put war you about that

2151
02:35:41,800 --> 02:35:44,200
coming. But if there's any comments that you want to

2152
02:35:44,280 --> 02:35:50,632
make at this point about, uh. When did the CAO

2153
02:35:50,872 --> 02:35:54,632
level SMT level understand that we had a 19 million

2154
02:35:54,792 --> 02:35:58,952
dollar over So I'm going to go to CEO Smith

2155
02:35:59,272 --> 02:36:04,048
and director Quinlan. Uh, Julie Chair, I could certainly start.

2156
02:36:03,968 --> 02:36:06,128
And I think what I can definitely say with respective

2157
02:36:06,208 --> 02:36:09,168
for, for finance staff, it was in until in terms

2158
02:36:09,088 --> 02:36:11,408
of understand the scale into which we were dealing with

2159
02:36:11,728 --> 02:36:15,888
really in that November, uh, 2025 timeline, which we realized

2160
02:36:16,448 --> 02:36:19,888
that this is, uh, this is the, uh, the scale

2161
02:36:20,048 --> 02:36:23,168
to which we're, we're facing these, these pressures related to

2162
02:36:23,808 --> 02:36:26,288
the, to the project. So and I think that's where,

2163
02:36:26,208 --> 02:36:27,968
you know, it's once again, go into that theme of

2164
02:36:28,208 --> 02:36:32,128
internal communications and how collectively we all work together and

2165
02:36:32,128 --> 02:36:35,728
then escalate things appropriately. Because with budget, when we look

2166
02:36:35,808 --> 02:36:38,288
at through budget and when we do look at every

2167
02:36:38,528 --> 02:36:41,888
department providing their divisional sheets into and understanding and meeting

2168
02:36:42,448 --> 02:36:44,608
that these types of issues, this is where that's the

2169
02:36:44,688 --> 02:36:47,088
time in which they are further divised. That's the way

2170
02:36:47,168 --> 02:36:49,808
they are strategies are formulated. A lot of these inputs

2171
02:36:50,608 --> 02:36:53,488
are further considered. Um, and then that kind of forms

2172
02:36:53,568 --> 02:36:55,968
into where our budget process is. So to the point

2173
02:36:56,048 --> 02:36:59,008
that I think has emphasized previously and within this report

2174
02:36:59,888 --> 02:37:03,488
when this was raised in terms of that, that november

2175
02:37:03,728 --> 02:37:06,048
timeline, it would have been, uh, it would not have

2176
02:37:05,968 --> 02:37:09,168
been appropriate to fit that with in the context of,

2177
02:37:09,088 --> 02:37:12,288
uh, the overall budget. Because even now we're still investigating

2178
02:37:12,848 --> 02:37:15,888
means in which, how does this affect our debt projections

2179
02:37:16,288 --> 02:37:18,368
moving forward? How does it affect in terms of, uh,

2180
02:37:18,848 --> 02:37:21,968
our reserves moving forward. This is a significant overage that

2181
02:37:21,968 --> 02:37:24,368
was not reflect or at least was not considered at

2182
02:37:24,368 --> 02:37:26,208
an earlier point in time in which we could figure

2183
02:37:26,448 --> 02:37:29,968
out those strategies. So that would be, uh, that would

2184
02:37:29,968 --> 02:37:32,288
be just some of my comments with respect to, uh,

2185
02:37:34,048 --> 02:37:38,418
internal escalation. Thank you, CO Smith, director clean one. Go

2186
02:37:38,418 --> 02:37:42,098
ahead. Thank you. Um, Mr. Chair and through you, I

2187
02:37:42,178 --> 02:37:45,298
would agree with what I CEO Smith has shared. I'll

2188
02:37:45,538 --> 02:37:49,138
also say, um, following once we were notified that the

2189
02:37:49,378 --> 02:37:51,778
increase was so severe. And I mean on the mill

2190
02:37:52,098 --> 02:37:55,298
street specifically moving from the value on the application of

2191
02:37:55,858 --> 02:37:59,058
9. 4 to a class C estimate of 10. 8.

2192
02:38:00,658 --> 02:38:03,938
You're an issue for tender estimate at 19. 9. Um,

2193
02:38:04,578 --> 02:38:08,498
there was no indication or escalation to us prior to

2194
02:38:08,578 --> 02:38:13,138
that November discussion. Following that, we took immediate action. We

2195
02:38:13,218 --> 02:38:16,498
started to review the costs. We looked at, um, where

2196
02:38:16,498 --> 02:38:18,818
the engineers could provide us some information in terms of

2197
02:38:18,978 --> 02:38:22,898
what the differences were from, let's say, the application, um,

2198
02:38:23,458 --> 02:38:26,898
amount to the actual issued for tender estimate. We reviewed

2199
02:38:26,898 --> 02:38:29,778
the project file in detail. We spoke directly with staff

2200
02:38:30,098 --> 02:38:34,098
involved. Um, and met with our external engineering consultants to

2201
02:38:34,258 --> 02:38:36,818
walk us through all of those assumptions as well as

2202
02:38:37,058 --> 02:38:40,098
exploring where there might be some reasonable options to reduce

2203
02:38:40,178 --> 02:38:43,378
the costs without jeopardizing. He was funding as we've talked

2204
02:38:43,458 --> 02:38:47,218
about earlier or the long - term system, uh, capacity.

2205
02:38:47,218 --> 02:38:50,098
I appreciate CO Smith's words around the budget. The truth

2206
02:38:50,098 --> 02:38:53,858
is, is that, um, when it comes to capital planning,

2207
02:38:53,778 --> 02:38:57,538
the capital planning does not directly drive the annual levy.

2208
02:38:57,458 --> 02:38:59,298
At the point that we were at, and again, we

2209
02:38:59,458 --> 02:39:02,498
are still trying to discern where we will end up

2210
02:39:03,138 --> 02:39:06,018
once we go through the value engineering estimate. It does

2211
02:39:06,098 --> 02:39:09,218
not change the tax rate. The tax rate is highly

2212
02:39:09,458 --> 02:39:11,698
tied or completely tied for that matter to the operating

2213
02:39:11,858 --> 02:39:15,618
budget. But what it does do is change our projections.

2214
02:39:15,538 --> 02:39:18,018
And of course, the projections that we provided as part

2215
02:39:18,018 --> 02:39:20,578
of the budget documents will have to be updated. We

2216
02:39:20,658 --> 02:39:24,078
will have to change that. We're reviewing what our debt

2217
02:39:24,238 --> 02:39:27,518
servicing requirements will be, whether or not we should be,

2218
02:39:27,438 --> 02:39:29,518
um, looking at debt and what it means to the

2219
02:39:29,758 --> 02:39:33,198
overall capital plan just in general. What projects maybe we

2220
02:39:33,198 --> 02:39:36,558
could delay or look at delaying. That could help us,

2221
02:39:36,478 --> 02:39:39,038
um, manage the cash flow around this. I will say

2222
02:39:39,118 --> 02:39:42,638
that having the hues funding is we're very fortunate to

2223
02:39:42,718 --> 02:39:46,958
have that. Um, we, we of course have received quite

2224
02:39:47,118 --> 02:39:49,198
a bit of the funding in advance, which means we

2225
02:39:49,198 --> 02:39:52,718
can keep it in, you know, our accounts and provide,

2226
02:39:52,638 --> 02:39:54,558
uh, the cashflow as we need it. So that is

2227
02:39:55,198 --> 02:39:58,958
a very, you know, important part of this. But I

2228
02:39:58,878 --> 02:40:01,678
cannot stress enough the fact that we are working on

2229
02:40:01,758 --> 02:40:05,118
the update of the capital program as you're aware. We're

2230
02:40:05,198 --> 02:40:08,158
bringing the final asset management plan forward. And that will

2231
02:40:08,238 --> 02:40:11,838
come on the February 23rd deadline. That tells us what

2232
02:40:12,158 --> 02:40:14,718
we're going to need to do from an asset management

2233
02:40:14,958 --> 02:40:18,078
perspective. And we'll also tell us what, um, how we

2234
02:40:18,078 --> 02:40:21,838
move forward with these types of projects, recognizing that we're

2235
02:40:21,918 --> 02:40:25,598
also finalizing or hoping to finalize, um, a DC appeal

2236
02:40:25,678 --> 02:40:28,078
that's been in, um, been out there now for almost

2237
02:40:28,318 --> 02:40:30,718
two years. So all of these pieces of the puzzle

2238
02:40:30,958 --> 02:40:33,998
will help us determine where we go forward and what

2239
02:40:34,078 --> 02:40:35,598
we can do in terms of a long - term

2240
02:40:35,678 --> 02:40:39,339
plan. Thank you, follow. Just last one. Follow up. Yep.

2241
02:40:39,579 --> 02:40:41,099
Yeah. Thank you very much. First of all, thank you

2242
02:40:41,179 --> 02:40:47,329
for your honesty. Really appreciate it. UCAO Smith has done

2243
02:40:47,329 --> 02:40:52,449
by indicating when the CAO and that had a finance

2244
02:40:52,529 --> 02:40:55,809
learned, which was November 2025. And there was a council

2245
02:40:55,809 --> 02:41:01,089
meeting, December 2025. So you can understand exactly when council

2246
02:41:01,329 --> 02:41:05,489
would probably have come to learn this. So, um, the

2247
02:41:05,809 --> 02:41:09,009
gap is what was noted by the CAO is the

2248
02:41:09,169 --> 02:41:12,209
summer of 2025 when there seems to be some other

2249
02:41:12,369 --> 02:41:14,929
information. But I look forward to hearing more about that

2250
02:41:15,169 --> 02:41:20,129
one. Um, but, um, as you can see from, from

2251
02:41:20,209 --> 02:41:22,289
a public perspective, I'm very happy that this has come

2252
02:41:22,289 --> 02:41:26,609
out that, that the CAO and our director of finance

2253
02:41:26,769 --> 02:41:30,769
did not know till November of 2025 and then council's

2254
02:41:30,769 --> 02:41:35,569
meeting was December 15th. So there was certain good diligence

2255
02:41:35,569 --> 02:41:40,369
done in terms of as soon as our senior staff

2256
02:41:40,449 --> 02:41:43,569
knew pretty close to when council learned as well. So

2257
02:41:44,049 --> 02:41:47,489
I think that information and hopefully that answers some of

2258
02:41:47,409 --> 02:41:50,369
the questions that have come from up today. Um, I

2259
02:41:50,529 --> 02:41:53,569
have more questions, but, uh, I know that, uh, my

2260
02:41:53,649 --> 02:41:55,717
colleagues are looking to speak as well. Thank you. Thank

2261
02:41:55,717 --> 02:42:01,273
you, Councillor Hope. CEO Smith. Is that an old hand.

2262
02:42:03,021 --> 02:42:04,701
To the chair? No, it is not old. And I

2263
02:42:04,621 --> 02:42:07,261
think just, you know, I think the important messaging within

2264
02:42:07,501 --> 02:42:09,821
the scope of this, this report too is not to

2265
02:42:09,981 --> 02:42:12,781
say, to sign blame. And it's, you know, really looking

2266
02:42:12,861 --> 02:42:15,741
at how we move forward with respect to certain controls.

2267
02:42:15,661 --> 02:42:18,381
I think it is important to be transparent where to

2268
02:42:18,541 --> 02:42:21,101
note that we do have existing controls and practices to

2269
02:42:21,261 --> 02:42:23,901
which communication is always the, you know, it's may not

2270
02:42:23,901 --> 02:42:26,301
be or might be a term to which is very

2271
02:42:26,541 --> 02:42:30,301
commonly understood as to be something that, uh, is well

2272
02:42:30,301 --> 02:42:33,581
known and is an important aspect of any of any

2273
02:42:33,661 --> 02:42:36,301
project management. But I think it is something that is

2274
02:42:36,301 --> 02:42:39,421
also can be difficult to practice. So, and I just,

2275
02:42:39,341 --> 02:42:42,301
um, I think once again to reinforce, it's not really

2276
02:42:42,461 --> 02:42:44,941
so much to sign blame. It's, it's really to look

2277
02:42:45,101 --> 02:42:48,861
at objectively how the events unfolded and just being honest

2278
02:42:49,261 --> 02:42:51,661
and transparent with respect to how things could be done

2279
02:42:51,901 --> 02:42:55,741
differently and using these as lessons learned moving forward and

2280
02:42:55,741 --> 02:42:58,381
understanding that even looking at what, what's unfolded things like

2281
02:42:58,701 --> 02:43:01,581
such as value engineering axis to ensure we're, we're controlling

2282
02:43:01,741 --> 02:43:04,141
some of those costs. So, um, I do want to

2283
02:43:04,141 --> 02:43:09,795
make that clear. Thank you CEO Smith. So, and I'm

2284
02:43:09,795 --> 02:43:11,715
sorry. Did you say you're going to, you're leading to

2285
02:43:11,955 --> 02:43:15,475
a motion counselor hope or was in conjunction with council

2286
02:43:15,475 --> 02:43:18,195
reporter. I'm sorry. I thought I caught, I thought I

2287
02:43:18,195 --> 02:43:20,995
caught something about emotion. Yes. I, I think it has

2288
02:43:21,075 --> 02:43:24,820
to be a collaborative one. Uh, but yes, we're going

2289
02:43:24,740 --> 02:43:26,820
to need some time, but I know that my colleagues

2290
02:43:26,900 --> 02:43:29,140
would like to speak as well. Okay. So just while

2291
02:43:29,140 --> 02:43:30,660
I would make note of that, I'll try to work

2292
02:43:30,820 --> 02:43:34,100
on one now. Thanks. Thank you. So, uh, Councillor Ardell,

2293
02:43:34,020 --> 02:43:36,660
I don't see a virtual hand, but, uh, I thought

2294
02:43:36,820 --> 02:43:38,420
I might just ask if you wanted to add anything

2295
02:43:38,900 --> 02:43:42,769
while we're going around the first round. No, I'd just

2296
02:43:42,769 --> 02:43:46,049
be repeating everything everybody else said. There's no point in

2297
02:43:46,129 --> 02:43:49,249
hearing myself speak. So thank you. Okay. Thank you, Councillor

2298
02:43:49,409 --> 02:43:53,597
Adele. Councillor Maxwell, did you have another quick question you

2299
02:43:53,597 --> 02:43:55,197
wanted to get in or before we get to a

2300
02:43:55,197 --> 02:43:56,717
motion? I'm going to add a question here. Go ahead.

2301
02:43:58,032 --> 02:44:04,367
Uh, just building on counselor hopes, uh, comment that. Certain

2302
02:44:04,527 --> 02:44:08,527
departments weren't aware of things. So that almost speaks the

2303
02:44:08,607 --> 02:44:13,417
fact that we're working in silos and, uh. From a

2304
02:44:13,417 --> 02:44:16,457
nest poll, uh, perspective, that's probably not where we want

2305
02:44:16,377 --> 02:44:19,577
to be. Um, I don't think everybody's supposed to be

2306
02:44:20,457 --> 02:44:24,137
in lockstep on a project, I would think. So I'm

2307
02:44:24,137 --> 02:44:29,177
just wondering about that. And I'm also want to talk

2308
02:44:29,177 --> 02:44:34,967
to this about the bundling of, um, projects. So I'm

2309
02:44:35,207 --> 02:44:41,774
having a hard time. Taking that as a negative. Uh,

2310
02:44:42,334 --> 02:44:46,094
because if you look at economies to scale, normally if

2311
02:44:46,094 --> 02:44:49,214
you're bundled a project, yours cost savings. So, I mean,

2312
02:44:49,294 --> 02:44:52,494
if I go into buy a car, it's this much

2313
02:44:52,814 --> 02:44:55,294
of, I say the dealer, how about by five. Hopefully

2314
02:44:55,374 --> 02:45:00,739
it's less. Okay. Um. So I'm just wondering under the

2315
02:45:01,219 --> 02:45:08,853
risk management, uh, scenario moving forward. And, um, I don't

2316
02:45:08,853 --> 02:45:10,933
want to dwelt much in the past, but you know,

2317
02:45:11,013 --> 02:45:15,813
years ago we would have had an engineering firm design

2318
02:45:16,133 --> 02:45:20,864
and managed anti - air project. And all the risk

2319
02:45:20,944 --> 02:45:27,315
and liability basically rested with the engineering firm. And the

2320
02:45:27,315 --> 02:45:31,058
taxpayer's role was just to pay for the project. So

2321
02:45:31,618 --> 02:45:34,098
now in the past recently we moved away from that

2322
02:45:34,578 --> 02:45:39,144
model. And I'm just wondering if there's any potential to

2323
02:45:39,544 --> 02:45:45,049
revisit that model. For the future, because the whole job

2324
02:45:45,289 --> 02:45:50,065
is to. For us at counselors, is to move all

2325
02:45:50,305 --> 02:45:55,006
risk and liability away from the municipality. And I'm just

2326
02:45:55,006 --> 02:45:58,126
wondering if we should have a, another look at that.

2327
02:45:58,046 --> 02:45:59,966
And I'm just going to mention that the CEO sled

2328
02:46:00,046 --> 02:46:03,246
to see what he thinks. Okay. Thank you, Councillor Maxwell.

2329
02:46:03,326 --> 02:46:07,646
I see Director Quinlan had her hand up first. Do

2330
02:46:07,566 --> 02:46:10,766
you want to just hold on for a second? Councillor,

2331
02:46:10,686 --> 02:46:17,281
or sorry, counselor director Quinlan, please go ahead. I think.

2332
02:46:18,400 --> 02:46:22,880
I can just speak with respect to bundling of projects.

2333
02:46:22,800 --> 02:46:26,080
When we talk about bundling, we mean from a budgetary

2334
02:46:26,720 --> 02:46:28,560
perspective. That doesn't mean when we go out to the

2335
02:46:28,720 --> 02:46:32,160
marketplace or reapply to a grant that we can't continue

2336
02:46:32,240 --> 02:46:34,800
to bundle up. It was the right thing as part

2337
02:46:34,800 --> 02:46:38,800
of the Hughes funding application to bring these projects together.

2338
02:46:38,720 --> 02:46:42,720
But once you have the information budgeting it should be

2339
02:46:43,440 --> 02:46:46,560
very, um, should be single. And the reason we say

2340
02:46:46,560 --> 02:46:49,360
that is because it reduces the vision of what we

2341
02:46:49,760 --> 02:46:51,440
can see in terms of our packages. So let me

2342
02:46:51,600 --> 02:46:53,440
just give you a, for example, if you have a

2343
02:46:53,520 --> 02:46:58,320
project that overall is 30 million dollars, but your advancing

2344
02:46:59,120 --> 02:47:04,320
three different, you know, very distinct projects on their own.

2345
02:47:04,240 --> 02:47:10,800
And you start with say a five million dollar tender,

2346
02:47:10,720 --> 02:47:13,280
well then you still have 25 million dollars left But

2347
02:47:13,280 --> 02:47:15,840
if you have a, if you don't know what the

2348
02:47:16,160 --> 02:47:19,120
rest of the projects are. So for example, you have

2349
02:47:19,600 --> 02:47:22,400
25 million dollars left, but if the second project was

2350
02:47:22,480 --> 02:47:29,680
a 20 million or 25 million dollar project says in

2351
02:47:29,680 --> 02:47:33,520
fairness that you still have an remaining amount in budget

2352
02:47:33,680 --> 02:47:39,032
to assign that tender. But that again doesn't mean from

2353
02:47:39,032 --> 02:47:43,512
a, from a, you know, a procurement standpoint or a

2354
02:47:43,832 --> 02:47:46,232
grant application standpoint that it's the wrong thing to do.

2355
02:47:46,152 --> 02:47:48,312
In fact, it was the right thing to do to

2356
02:47:48,312 --> 02:47:50,552
apply for this huge funding with all three of these

2357
02:47:50,712 --> 02:47:53,512
projects because you needed all three of these projects to

2358
02:47:53,592 --> 02:47:56,952
meet the housing units that were being put forth. So

2359
02:47:58,232 --> 02:48:00,072
no one's saying that, you know, it's bad to save

2360
02:48:00,152 --> 02:48:02,952
money or bad to look at bundling. What we're saying

2361
02:48:02,952 --> 02:48:05,272
is, is when we budget though, we keep it very

2362
02:48:05,512 --> 02:48:08,392
separate and distinct so that it's clear to everybody, including

2363
02:48:08,792 --> 02:48:12,712
council, that this is, these are the amounts that are

2364
02:48:12,712 --> 02:48:14,872
remaining in that budget. As you know, we do quarterly

2365
02:48:15,032 --> 02:48:18,232
reporting. We explain what the actual and the and the

2366
02:48:18,232 --> 02:48:21,592
budgets are. And then we provide a projection beginning in

2367
02:48:21,672 --> 02:48:23,592
the second and third quarters to see where we're going

2368
02:48:23,512 --> 02:48:26,712
to end up. Um, that is the point is that

2369
02:48:26,872 --> 02:48:29,512
we would be able to see at that point that

2370
02:48:29,752 --> 02:48:31,992
our projections are now different, but you can't see that

2371
02:48:32,232 --> 02:48:36,591
when you put them all together. Okay. CAO. Thank you,

2372
02:48:36,511 --> 02:48:42,101
Director Quinlan, CAO Smith. Yes, uh, through the chair, maybe

2373
02:48:42,181 --> 02:48:46,501
to the couple pieces related to operating silos at Councillor

2374
02:48:46,661 --> 02:48:49,301
Maxwell noted as well as just the other piece around,

2375
02:48:49,221 --> 02:48:51,941
I think for third party engineering support, I think that's

2376
02:48:52,261 --> 02:48:55,061
the other component of this. So I will say, and

2377
02:48:55,141 --> 02:48:58,101
I don't think it's, uh, reflection of the reality that,

2378
02:48:58,021 --> 02:49:01,541
you know, for cross different departments, we're operating in silos.

2379
02:49:01,461 --> 02:49:04,021
I think going back to communication too, it's often comes

2380
02:49:04,181 --> 02:49:06,341
down to how you do it as well. Is it,

2381
02:49:06,261 --> 02:49:08,821
you know, in terms of verbal versus written, documenting, you

2382
02:49:08,741 --> 02:49:11,701
know, when certain decision points need to be made, especially

2383
02:49:12,181 --> 02:49:15,541
given the, the degree of complexity, I think involved with

2384
02:49:15,621 --> 02:49:18,661
these three different projects and especially when you look at

2385
02:49:18,741 --> 02:49:22,341
the connectivity between bay and gray as well as for,

2386
02:49:22,501 --> 02:49:25,221
for Mill Street and the history there as well. Um,

2387
02:49:25,461 --> 02:49:28,101
I think that's what, you know, certainly as, as created

2388
02:49:28,741 --> 02:49:32,341
a challenge for, for staff and effectively having some of

2389
02:49:32,261 --> 02:49:36,581
those, uh, internal communications. But, um, but nonetheless, I wouldn't

2390
02:49:36,581 --> 02:49:38,901
say that. That's a serious issue in which we, we

2391
02:49:38,981 --> 02:49:43,061
have this, uh, siloed approach and certainly not something that,

2392
02:49:42,981 --> 02:49:46,581
uh, I would, uh, would say, uh, part of my

2393
02:49:46,821 --> 02:49:51,141
own, my own philosophy, uh, in regards to engineering support

2394
02:49:51,621 --> 02:49:53,861
in third party engineering support. We do know there are

2395
02:49:54,021 --> 02:49:56,661
other municipalities that will deploy as it relates to more

2396
02:49:56,741 --> 02:49:59,621
so on the regulatory side is to say, we will

2397
02:49:59,701 --> 02:50:04,741
have a, a procured, say, third party to manage the

2398
02:50:04,901 --> 02:50:08,421
contracts bound with other contractors or consultants that would be

2399
02:50:08,421 --> 02:50:11,861
doing, uh, various capital projects on behalf of the, uh,

2400
02:50:12,581 --> 02:50:14,581
on behalf of the municipality. Now I will say that

2401
02:50:15,141 --> 02:50:17,541
where there is, I think the thinking in terms of

2402
02:50:17,621 --> 02:50:21,141
the capacity we have from an engineering or capital projects

2403
02:50:21,141 --> 02:50:24,261
management or even from a development management side of things

2404
02:50:24,421 --> 02:50:26,821
is that the value that goes in there is that

2405
02:50:27,061 --> 02:50:29,381
I think is exactly to that in terms of minimizing

2406
02:50:29,701 --> 02:50:33,461
risk because we have, we're constantly monitoring those works. You're

2407
02:50:33,621 --> 02:50:36,421
not having that, uh, that risk exposure that may relate

2408
02:50:36,421 --> 02:50:39,941
to having a consound come in that may not have

2409
02:50:40,101 --> 02:50:42,981
that, uh, municipal contacts or may not have that prior

2410
02:50:43,141 --> 02:50:46,181
experience working with the town or say our relevant engineering

2411
02:50:46,421 --> 02:50:50,421
standards. So oftentimes it can be good to have that

2412
02:50:50,821 --> 02:50:55,621
internal capacity, recognizing that that internal capacity is very familiarized

2413
02:50:55,781 --> 02:51:00,421
with, uh, standards and practices within the town. But, uh,

2414
02:51:00,581 --> 02:51:02,821
it is something I think to further explore when it

2415
02:51:02,741 --> 02:51:05,861
comes to certain projects in which, you know, understanding the

2416
02:51:06,021 --> 02:51:08,261
number that we have on the, uh, on the, uh,

2417
02:51:08,581 --> 02:51:11,701
in the docket coming forward is to say, where could

2418
02:51:11,781 --> 02:51:15,381
there be some additional support to ensure that, uh, you

2419
02:51:15,301 --> 02:51:17,861
know, we can move forward on these projects in a

2420
02:51:17,861 --> 02:51:20,261
timely way. And to consider things are further considered things

2421
02:51:20,261 --> 02:51:23,981
like risk. Thank you, CO Swift. Did you have a

2422
02:51:23,901 --> 02:51:25,981
follow up, Councillor Maxwell? Or does that answer your question?

2423
02:51:27,696 --> 02:51:30,764
No, I could ask questions all day. No, I'm. Okay.

2424
02:51:33,479 --> 02:51:37,719
Thank you, Councillor Maxwell. That's all for now. Councillor Porter,

2425
02:51:37,639 --> 02:51:40,679
please go ahead. Yes. And thank you through the chair.

2426
02:51:40,599 --> 02:51:45,399
So page three, um, the, it is mentioned in August

2427
02:51:45,719 --> 02:51:49,159
25 with the release of the tender became clear and

2428
02:51:49,239 --> 02:51:52,919
sufficient budget would remain. I wouldn't say with the release,

2429
02:51:52,839 --> 02:51:55,799
I would say prior to the release. And what I've

2430
02:51:55,799 --> 02:51:59,716
been hearing is. Because counsel wasn't aware and no one

2431
02:51:59,716 --> 02:52:05,156
else because to Councillor Maxwell's point, it seemed to be

2432
02:52:07,556 --> 02:52:11,103
managed in the silo. There was a real big missed

2433
02:52:11,103 --> 02:52:15,955
opportunity for our value engineering on the entire bundle. Cause

2434
02:52:15,955 --> 02:52:20,757
we lost valuable time that we can't get back. Because,

2435
02:52:20,677 --> 02:52:24,597
um, and that to me, I haven't hear that that's

2436
02:52:24,917 --> 02:52:30,905
a big question is to why. Um, and I still

2437
02:52:31,145 --> 02:52:35,406
struggle with, um. Awarding a contract knowing you don't have

2438
02:52:35,726 --> 02:52:39,272
enough money to complete the bundle. Maybe it goes against

2439
02:52:40,392 --> 02:52:45,057
my financial framework, but I still struggle with that. Um,

2440
02:52:45,297 --> 02:52:48,337
but we missed an opportunity to value engineer the entire

2441
02:52:48,577 --> 02:52:54,440
project because no one knew. Um, there wasn't other things.

2442
02:52:54,440 --> 02:52:59,640
Things are often best discussed in a wider audience to

2443
02:52:59,880 --> 02:53:03,800
ask the necessary questions. Because with respect to this project,

2444
02:53:03,960 --> 02:53:07,320
there isn't one area of the town. This doesn't touch.

2445
02:53:07,560 --> 02:53:09,560
It even touched parks given all the trees that have

2446
02:53:09,640 --> 02:53:12,040
gone down on B Street. There isn't an area of

2447
02:53:12,200 --> 02:53:15,444
the town. It doesn't touch. So the other thing is

2448
02:53:16,004 --> 02:53:19,444
I want to go back to, um, it's actually not

2449
02:53:19,604 --> 02:53:23,768
clear. Whether or not the Bay Street Force mean was

2450
02:53:23,928 --> 02:53:26,168
more cost effective. It's not clear. You look at the

2451
02:53:26,408 --> 02:53:31,834
PIC presentation. It's not clear. And, um, because some people

2452
02:53:32,074 --> 02:53:34,234
say I don't have a life. I took all of

2453
02:53:34,234 --> 02:53:36,714
the verbiage off every slide and tried to make sense

2454
02:53:36,954 --> 02:53:38,714
of it in a matrix. And it doesn't make sense.

2455
02:53:39,876 --> 02:53:43,236
Um, in fact, there is, the Georgian Trail didn't even

2456
02:53:43,236 --> 02:53:47,081
have a cost. Yet this was deemed the most accosive.

2457
02:53:49,041 --> 02:53:53,041
Um, we have mixed messaging in the community about who

2458
02:53:53,361 --> 02:53:56,641
and when the decision was made. And because yes, in

2459
02:53:56,641 --> 02:53:58,721
the April report, it was mentioned eight times. And it

2460
02:53:58,801 --> 02:54:01,601
was referred to as anything bought a force main on

2461
02:54:01,761 --> 02:54:04,860
Bay Street. But we understand from what we've been told

2462
02:54:05,740 --> 02:54:07,500
and the public have been told the decision had been

2463
02:54:07,580 --> 02:54:11,064
made. When you look at the PIC that these people

2464
02:54:11,464 --> 02:54:14,024
on Bay Street listen to and other people in the

2465
02:54:14,104 --> 02:54:17,864
town saw and heard, it was talked about preferred alternative,

2466
02:54:17,784 --> 02:54:22,584
but the decision had been made. The consultant told residents,

2467
02:54:22,504 --> 02:54:27,822
these were preferred. Um, alternatives. Uh, was preferred. And they,

2468
02:54:27,902 --> 02:54:32,355
they listed four alternatives. Then they give rationale why it

2469
02:54:32,355 --> 02:54:35,531
was preferred. And the next day the Hughes funding went

2470
02:54:35,611 --> 02:54:41,065
in. When it was Bay Street. So this still, that

2471
02:54:41,065 --> 02:54:43,945
eroded so much trust that I don't know when it

2472
02:54:43,945 --> 02:54:47,908
will come back. But this would have been involved. The

2473
02:54:47,908 --> 02:54:50,708
consultant. And what I don't see in this investigation report

2474
02:54:51,028 --> 02:54:55,188
is the role of the consultant either. Um, and the

2475
02:54:55,348 --> 02:54:57,028
part they may or may not have played. I don't

2476
02:54:57,108 --> 02:55:02,673
know because they're not mentioned. We don't know in fact,

2477
02:55:02,593 --> 02:55:05,793
and I go back to not just a strategic plan,

2478
02:55:05,713 --> 02:55:10,466
which accountability and transparency came larger than life. It was

2479
02:55:10,626 --> 02:55:13,666
back in the residential survey of 2024, the public have

2480
02:55:13,746 --> 02:55:17,746
been asking for accountability transparency and evidence - based decisions.

2481
02:55:17,666 --> 02:55:19,826
And when we come to the force main, we've never

2482
02:55:19,906 --> 02:55:24,222
seen the evidence. The hard evidence. And I did say

2483
02:55:25,262 --> 02:55:28,702
council did not support a motion to direct staff, but

2484
02:55:28,782 --> 02:55:33,102
I also have said nothing stopped staff from making that

2485
02:55:33,182 --> 02:55:38,716
transparent. So a lot of things still bother me about

2486
02:55:38,796 --> 02:55:44,669
this. I would ask in the report because I'm a

2487
02:55:44,669 --> 02:55:47,789
great believer in processes. I worked in an industry where

2488
02:55:49,069 --> 02:55:51,469
also things did get escalated from the front line up

2489
02:55:51,949 --> 02:55:56,029
to significant people and how important that is. That on

2490
02:55:56,189 --> 02:56:00,029
page three, when information should be escalated as early as

2491
02:56:00,109 --> 02:56:04,989
possible, I think it's beneficial to have a, um, a

2492
02:56:05,069 --> 02:56:08,189
decision matrix, a flow chart. Like where do the decisions

2493
02:56:09,549 --> 02:56:12,189
when something happens? Where's the next point? Where does it

2494
02:56:12,749 --> 02:56:15,709
escalate it too before a decision is made? It's like

2495
02:56:15,789 --> 02:56:18,029
you sort of have our decision chart. You have yes,

2496
02:56:18,029 --> 02:56:21,869
no. And where you go. Because I don't know what

2497
02:56:21,869 --> 02:56:24,109
the information should be escalated as early as possible. And

2498
02:56:24,269 --> 02:56:28,506
I realized this is, um. Uh, an interim report. I

2499
02:56:28,426 --> 02:56:32,826
think we need to be more, um, specific of how

2500
02:56:32,906 --> 02:56:36,026
the flow of information would go and the criteria for

2501
02:56:36,266 --> 02:56:39,946
when. It's, it's unfortunate. It sounds like it would be

2502
02:56:40,026 --> 02:56:44,026
very prescriptive, but we do have an enormous issue that

2503
02:56:44,106 --> 02:56:48,586
has evolved as perhaps of maybe not being as prescriptive

2504
02:56:49,146 --> 02:56:54,299
as, um, would have been warranted. Thank you. Okay. Thank

2505
02:56:54,299 --> 02:56:58,197
you, Councillor Porter. CEO Smith, I'm not sure. Yeah. That's

2506
02:56:58,277 --> 02:57:02,917
okay. Um, so I see no further virtual hands. I

2507
02:57:02,837 --> 02:57:04,677
was, it was indicated that there would be a motion

2508
02:57:04,917 --> 02:57:10,476
come forward. Uh, yes, I prepared part of one. And

2509
02:57:10,556 --> 02:57:14,396
so I think if we could have five minutes or

2510
02:57:14,556 --> 02:57:16,636
10 minutes. Yeah. If we could have 10 minutes to

2511
02:57:16,796 --> 02:57:19,756
have a look at to complete the motion, it would

2512
02:57:19,756 --> 02:57:22,156
be much appreciated. Calm. Um, so before we get to

2513
02:57:22,796 --> 02:57:26,076
that, Madam Clerk, how was our timeline for today? So

2514
02:57:26,316 --> 02:57:28,716
we'll take a few minutes for this motion to be

2515
02:57:28,716 --> 02:57:32,316
crafted and we're going to need a suitable break for

2516
02:57:32,396 --> 02:57:34,556
staff and everyone involved before we get to the next

2517
02:57:34,716 --> 02:57:38,236
section. Right. Thank you, Mr. Chair. So yeah, so we'll

2518
02:57:38,316 --> 02:57:41,516
take a 10 minute break now. We'll come back. I'll

2519
02:57:41,516 --> 02:57:44,716
consider the motion. Um, we will do the follow up

2520
02:57:44,956 --> 02:57:48,476
public comment period. And then we'll have lunch for maybe

2521
02:57:48,556 --> 02:57:50,556
half hour 45 minutes and then come back and finish

2522
02:57:50,796 --> 02:57:58,869
the planning section of the reconvene at 1235. Please turn

2523
02:57:58,869 --> 02:58:00,709
your cameras in your microphones off. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

2524
03:07:32,910 --> 03:07:35,390
Okay, Mr. Chair, it's 1235. Thank you for that break.

2525
03:07:35,390 --> 03:07:38,110
We do have a quorum of council at the table.

2526
03:07:38,030 --> 03:07:41,119
Thank you, Madam Clerk. Have you been afforded a motion.

2527
03:07:50,292 --> 03:07:50,906
Direct. CO.

2528
03:09:02,063 --> 03:09:06,303
Okay, Mr. Chair, I've been provided with the, uh, draft

2529
03:09:06,383 --> 03:09:08,638
motion. I'll just put it up on the screen. Okay.

2530
03:09:08,638 --> 03:09:10,798
Thank you, Madam Clerk. Just wait a moment to see

2531
03:09:10,798 --> 03:09:19,730
that. Excuse me. All right. So we have a motion

2532
03:09:19,730 --> 03:09:26,497
that moved by Councillor Hope and seconded by second. By

2533
03:09:26,577 --> 03:09:31,353
Councillor Porter. Thank you. That council received staff report ADM

2534
03:09:31,673 --> 03:09:37,601
dot 26. 015 entitled investigative report. Ash Craig Leith SLS

2535
03:09:37,841 --> 03:09:44,081
Mill Street SPS and gray street linear works for information.

2536
03:09:45,327 --> 03:09:47,727
And that council directs the CAO to address the following

2537
03:09:47,967 --> 03:09:52,367
points in his February investigative report. Number one, what escalation

2538
03:09:52,527 --> 03:09:56,047
processes will the CIO be considering to ensure that all

2539
03:09:56,127 --> 03:10:01,727
information financial, engineering, and construction, uh, and bracket regarding, uh,

2540
03:10:02,127 --> 03:10:06,927
capital projects is reported on, uh, quote, as early as

2541
03:10:07,007 --> 03:10:10,866
possible. End quote to council. Number two, further to these

2542
03:10:11,266 --> 03:10:16,866
processes, how would the CAO incorporate consultation with council and

2543
03:10:16,866 --> 03:10:22,306
the public at the real beginning, uh, bracket or yeah,

2544
03:10:22,306 --> 03:10:27,837
bracket. The thought or identified need and bracket. And throughout

2545
03:10:27,997 --> 03:10:32,077
the projects, as per the example offered about the decision

2546
03:10:32,157 --> 03:10:37,319
to place the force main on Bay Street. Number three,

2547
03:10:37,319 --> 03:10:40,599
please provide the details of the evidence - based decision

2548
03:10:40,679 --> 03:10:43,399
- making process leading to the choice of Bay Street

2549
03:10:43,399 --> 03:10:46,279
for the force main, including, but not limited to how

2550
03:10:46,359 --> 03:10:49,399
they met the bullet points on side 14 of the

2551
03:10:49,639 --> 03:10:54,599
April 18 2024 at a minimum, number four to answer

2552
03:10:54,759 --> 03:10:58,439
all questions put forward by the community matters group in

2553
03:10:58,359 --> 03:11:03,564
their public comments. Made today. Number five, please explain why

2554
03:11:03,644 --> 03:11:07,004
the gap occurred between the awareness of the overridge in

2555
03:11:07,324 --> 03:11:11,964
the summer of 2025 and went SMT became aware in

2556
03:11:12,044 --> 03:11:18,024
November, 2025. I'm going to go to CAO Smith. Since

2557
03:11:18,024 --> 03:11:21,906
this is directed towards yourself as of all. Court. So

2558
03:11:21,906 --> 03:11:24,525
to chair, I have one comment. Inside when it says

2559
03:11:25,005 --> 03:11:29,165
onside, it should be slide 14 of the April 18th,

2560
03:11:30,285 --> 03:11:36,085
PIC. Slide for, okay. Thank you for that, uh, clarification

2561
03:11:36,645 --> 03:11:44,064
on slide 14. Sorry, I threw Mr. Chair. So it

2562
03:11:44,144 --> 03:11:47,264
should read to how they met the bullet points on

2563
03:11:47,344 --> 03:11:54,415
slide 14 of April 18th, 2024. PIC. Thank you. PIC.

2564
03:11:54,335 --> 03:12:02,166
Okay. We'll correct that. Thank you. Smith, is there anything

2565
03:12:02,246 --> 03:12:05,766
in here that's not already under your follow - up

2566
03:12:05,846 --> 03:12:10,964
reports. Or just looking to you. Uh, yes, through the

2567
03:12:10,964 --> 03:12:13,204
chair, I will have to take a review after this

2568
03:12:13,604 --> 03:12:15,524
is put forward on the, what will fit within the

2569
03:12:15,764 --> 03:12:18,964
context of a follow - up report versus, uh, what

2570
03:12:19,284 --> 03:12:22,244
might, uh, might not be practical here for, for open

2571
03:12:22,404 --> 03:12:24,164
session, but I will be able to follow up the

2572
03:12:24,164 --> 03:12:27,284
council at a layer point. Okay. Thank you CEO Smith.

2573
03:12:31,577 --> 03:12:36,285
That being said. Okay. Councilor Hope this did become a

2574
03:12:36,365 --> 03:12:39,005
collaborative motion. And I know that there was one about

2575
03:12:39,325 --> 03:12:42,845
risk management that Councillor Maxwell had wanted to be put

2576
03:12:43,085 --> 03:12:48,203
forward. And we didn't include it because we needed to

2577
03:12:48,123 --> 03:12:52,062
get it off the way we did. But perhaps Councillor

2578
03:12:52,142 --> 03:12:55,422
Maxwell, would you want to put forward what you'd like

2579
03:12:55,902 --> 03:12:58,319
and maybe. The mover in the secondary can agree to

2580
03:12:58,879 --> 03:13:01,359
adding it? What would be your preference? Well, I mentioned

2581
03:13:01,919 --> 03:13:05,199
it to you earlier, but I mean, if it isn't

2582
03:13:05,359 --> 03:13:08,159
reflected in your report, then we won't do it. Okay.

2583
03:13:10,395 --> 03:13:13,195
About risk management that we're thinking that that will come

2584
03:13:13,275 --> 03:13:16,715
through in the next report. But how we intend to

2585
03:13:16,795 --> 03:13:22,206
manage risk in the future. So directed to CAO Smith,

2586
03:13:22,126 --> 03:13:24,526
I believe we heard from a couple of staff members

2587
03:13:24,526 --> 03:13:28,046
about risk management, but CAO Smith. Yeah. Through the chair,

2588
03:13:27,966 --> 03:13:30,206
I think just within the current report, I noted a

2589
03:13:30,206 --> 03:13:32,846
couple measures tied to that risk piece, but I can

2590
03:13:32,926 --> 03:13:35,566
certainly maybe provide some further detail of what that means.

2591
03:13:35,486 --> 03:13:38,126
So for example, looking at, you know, as part of

2592
03:13:38,126 --> 03:13:40,286
the review of the staff templates, I know I won't

2593
03:13:40,366 --> 03:13:43,566
have that ready for the next meeting of council, but

2594
03:13:43,646 --> 03:13:45,886
that's an example where something that I think there could

2595
03:13:45,886 --> 03:13:50,686
be some further prompts or further structural changes to deepen

2596
03:13:51,406 --> 03:13:55,166
at least the details associate in different staff reports. Um,

2597
03:13:55,486 --> 03:13:57,726
same with in terms of our, our bid award forms,

2598
03:13:57,726 --> 03:13:59,806
different pieces in that regard. So I can provide a

2599
03:13:59,726 --> 03:14:03,086
little more information on that if that's, if that's what,

2600
03:14:03,006 --> 03:14:05,726
uh, council would like to see, uh, but I just

2601
03:14:05,966 --> 03:14:08,446
would abrean force your RA pieces, I think, within the

2602
03:14:08,606 --> 03:14:11,086
existing report I've touched on in relation to that matter.

2603
03:14:13,049 --> 03:14:15,918
Thank you. Okay. Thank you. So I think that we

2604
03:14:15,838 --> 03:14:18,478
don't need to enshrine it in the motion. There's an

2605
03:14:18,638 --> 03:14:21,528
understanding that we'd like to see that. Okay. Thank you.

2606
03:14:22,408 --> 03:14:26,435
Thank you. Okay. Thank you. Council reporter. Uh, yes. Thank

2607
03:14:26,435 --> 03:14:30,595
you through the chair. Um, for indulginess, I'm just wondering,

2608
03:14:30,515 --> 03:14:34,035
um, if we could go back to number one in

2609
03:14:34,115 --> 03:14:37,955
the motion, and if there is a way of incorporating,

2610
03:14:37,875 --> 03:14:40,675
uh, considering to show all information, we could also put

2611
03:14:41,075 --> 03:14:49,080
risk management. We could also put that. Have engineering hyphen

2612
03:14:49,160 --> 03:14:56,888
construction and risk management. It's the secondary, I'm comfortable with

2613
03:14:57,048 --> 03:15:03,339
that. In. Regard that as it can be as it

2614
03:15:03,339 --> 03:15:10,042
can be included. Okay. So. Yes, so the brackets now

2615
03:15:10,202 --> 03:15:14,497
is, yeah, reads construction and risk management. Okay. Um, any

2616
03:15:14,497 --> 03:15:20,228
other anything from anybody else attending virtually. Seeing none. Um,

2617
03:15:20,628 --> 03:15:24,204
Madam Clerk, please call that vote. Thank you. The vote

2618
03:15:24,284 --> 03:15:24,524
is open.

2619
03:15:39,640 --> 03:15:42,899
That phone was carried with all present voting. Councillor Adele.

2620
03:15:42,819 --> 03:15:47,287
Yeah. Um, I, I'm having a hard time seeing everybody.

2621
03:15:47,207 --> 03:15:49,207
And I don't know who's on camera and who's not

2622
03:15:49,287 --> 03:15:52,255
on camera. And I was wondering if we had a

2623
03:15:52,495 --> 03:15:57,735
full quorum for, for voting. So we do. Okay. Because

2624
03:15:58,055 --> 03:16:02,295
yeah. Okay. Now Councillor Maximum Councillor Hopes were gone. And

2625
03:16:02,375 --> 03:16:04,455
so I, I, I didn't know what was happening. So.

2626
03:16:04,847 --> 03:16:08,748
No problem cancelor. Thank you. Okay. Okay. Now we will

2627
03:16:09,148 --> 03:16:12,508
move to item B5. Public comment period regarding matters included

2628
03:16:12,508 --> 03:16:15,708
in the operations portion of the meeting in response to

2629
03:16:16,188 --> 03:16:20,897
what has been conducted this morning today. Mr. Chair, I

2630
03:16:20,897 --> 03:16:22,817
do have one comment to read. We have one on

2631
03:16:22,977 --> 03:16:24,737
behalf of something when you're ready. I don't know if

2632
03:16:24,897 --> 03:16:27,057
someone from the public wants to go ahead first or

2633
03:16:27,297 --> 03:16:29,697
well. Well, I'll have the member that's in person come

2634
03:16:29,697 --> 03:16:32,257
first and then we'll, we'll work in tandem. Thank you.

2635
03:16:41,232 --> 03:16:45,898
It's a battery. Oh, okay. We'll. Do a mic. We'll

2636
03:16:45,978 --> 03:16:55,327
do a microphone exchange. Good morning. Our good afternoon, whatever

2637
03:16:55,407 --> 03:17:01,470
it is, uh, Julie Chipping Thornbury. After listening for the

2638
03:17:01,470 --> 03:17:06,350
morning to all of this, um, it becomes very apparent.

2639
03:17:07,986 --> 03:17:12,255
To a taxpayer. That all of this money that's being

2640
03:17:12,815 --> 03:17:20,415
discussed is actually from the community, whether it be provincial,

2641
03:17:20,335 --> 03:17:24,325
federal or municipal. We are all on the hook for

2642
03:17:24,405 --> 03:17:32,077
this. I find it disturbing that, um, there is lack

2643
03:17:32,157 --> 03:17:40,658
of, um, sort of accountability. Considering, um, everything that's going

2644
03:17:40,818 --> 03:17:47,538
on. And I also struggle with the comment, uh, from

2645
03:17:47,858 --> 03:17:53,858
previously about the condot tax. And it's only 40 dollars,

2646
03:17:53,778 --> 03:18:01,231
which makes it all. Sorry, I don't know. Financial. Okay.

2647
03:18:01,711 --> 03:18:07,317
Okay. Then, uh, I, we're just blown away by the

2648
03:18:07,797 --> 03:18:14,917
lack of insight from staff, counselors and this whole municipality.

2649
03:18:14,837 --> 03:18:19,666
Thank you. Okay. Madam Clerk, you have one to read.

2650
03:18:19,586 --> 03:18:23,430
Please go ahead. Thank you, Mr. Chair. This comment is

2651
03:18:23,510 --> 03:18:27,270
from Paul Reali. Thornbury resident. He was unable to stay

2652
03:18:27,270 --> 03:18:29,270
to provide this comment. So he's written it for me

2653
03:18:29,270 --> 03:18:32,390
to read. Reed just follows. After listening to this morning's

2654
03:18:32,390 --> 03:18:35,110
meeting, I'd like to thank Council for the work they

2655
03:18:35,110 --> 03:18:39,350
are doing on behalf of our community. The discussion and

2656
03:18:39,590 --> 03:18:42,390
questions have been excellent. Thank you for taking this issue

2657
03:18:42,710 --> 03:18:47,132
with the utmost gravity it deserves. Paul Reali. Okay. Thank

2658
03:18:47,132 --> 03:18:50,342
you, Madam Clerk. Second call for members in the public.

2659
03:18:51,402 --> 03:19:00,019
Please come forward, stick your name. And address. Oh, you

2660
03:19:00,179 --> 03:19:03,478
got to push the button. There you go. Good morning.

2661
03:19:03,398 --> 03:19:10,122
Um, chair and counselor. So random cloud RR2 Clarksburg. It

2662
03:19:10,042 --> 03:19:13,002
was, um, it certainly perked my ears when this morning

2663
03:19:13,242 --> 03:19:18,714
when, um, the chair used the word disaster. To describe

2664
03:19:18,794 --> 03:19:22,743
this. What I'm asking. Which one are we talking about.

2665
03:19:24,516 --> 03:19:27,967
Because there's two in player. There's a current disaster and

2666
03:19:28,047 --> 03:19:34,074
the impending disaster that's going to happen. In the previous

2667
03:19:34,154 --> 03:19:39,194
term, the mayor of that council said that we had

2668
03:19:39,514 --> 03:19:44,154
a terrible tax ratio. And who I memory serves me

2669
03:19:45,434 --> 03:19:54,186
correctly. It was 9010. So the target ratio amongst most

2670
03:19:54,346 --> 03:20:01,792
municipalities is 6040. So with the explanation is that 90

2671
03:20:01,792 --> 03:20:06,512
percent of our tax revenues are generated from a residential.

2672
03:20:12,024 --> 03:20:15,784
And that is what is used to buffer the residential

2673
03:20:16,024 --> 03:20:22,761
taxes. This is a housing enabling project. That we're undertaking

2674
03:20:22,841 --> 03:20:29,042
here. This is only going to further a road. The

2675
03:20:29,042 --> 03:20:34,664
terrible tax ratio that we have here. So anything and

2676
03:20:34,664 --> 03:20:40,602
everything that is that requires funding from this building. Is

2677
03:20:40,602 --> 03:20:47,179
going to be falling upon the residential tax base. It

2678
03:20:47,259 --> 03:20:51,364
brings me to wonder. Who in the future is going

2679
03:20:51,284 --> 03:20:58,937
to buy a home. Live here. With continually escalating residential

2680
03:20:59,097 --> 03:21:04,642
taxes. So I would request a console to do a

2681
03:21:04,802 --> 03:21:11,598
serious consideration as to the long - term implications. Of

2682
03:21:12,158 --> 03:21:16,852
continuing down this road. Thank you. Thank you. Anyone else

2683
03:21:17,012 --> 03:21:23,335
from the public. Third and final call. And I will

2684
03:21:23,735 --> 03:21:26,615
close that section of the agenda and I will hand

2685
03:21:26,695 --> 03:21:28,855
it back to, I will hand the chair back to

2686
03:21:29,175 --> 03:21:34,726
Councillor Hope. Yes. Thank you. Um, so Madam Clerk, uh,

2687
03:21:35,126 --> 03:21:38,406
at this point you have, I suggest we need 45

2688
03:21:38,406 --> 03:21:42,406
minutes. So or almost, how about we get back together

2689
03:21:42,806 --> 03:21:46,006
at 1 30? We have a short agenda at that

2690
03:21:46,006 --> 03:21:49,846
time. That sounds great, Madam Chair. Thank you. So just

2691
03:21:49,926 --> 03:21:52,406
a reminder to mute your microphones and turn your cameras

2692
03:21:52,406 --> 03:21:55,046
off. And we will return at 1 30. Thank you.

2693
03:21:55,366 --> 03:21:55,526
Thank you.

2694
04:03:12,548 --> 04:03:14,948
So thank you for that break, Madam Chair. We have

2695
04:03:15,268 --> 04:03:18,628
returned from our lunch break. It's 1 30. We are

2696
04:03:18,628 --> 04:03:25,722
now at agenda item. B6, which is the planning and

2697
04:03:25,802 --> 04:03:28,836
building portion of the meeting. We do have a quorum

2698
04:03:28,996 --> 04:03:31,076
of council just a reminder, please to turn your cameras

2699
04:03:31,076 --> 04:03:37,861
on. Yes. Thank you, Madam Clerk. Uh, we are now

2700
04:03:38,021 --> 04:03:45,317
moving into planning and building. And I have the pleasure

2701
04:03:45,557 --> 04:03:54,831
of chairing that section. Um, and we are at. We

2702
04:03:54,991 --> 04:03:58,968
don't have any correspondence. Staff reports at B9. So B

2703
04:03:59,128 --> 04:04:02,888
point 9. 3 chair. Yes. Um, just the public comment

2704
04:04:03,128 --> 04:04:04,968
period. But I do confirm that I do not have

2705
04:04:05,128 --> 04:04:09,433
any public comments to read. Right. Okay. For this. Yes.

2706
04:04:09,513 --> 04:04:13,121
So no public comments. And no one in the room.

2707
04:04:14,458 --> 04:04:16,778
The press will have it say no matter what we

2708
04:04:16,778 --> 04:04:20,131
do. So no. Thank you very much. Thank you. We

2709
04:04:20,371 --> 04:04:23,275
don't ever want to forget public comment. All right. Moving

2710
04:04:23,355 --> 04:04:27,915
on to B point eight correspondence. There is no correspondence.

2711
04:04:27,835 --> 04:04:31,620
Then moving on to B nine staff reports. And B

2712
04:04:32,020 --> 04:04:34,500
point nine point one report in response to the deputation

2713
04:04:34,580 --> 04:04:38,980
of Andrew Simon. We're allowing backyard chickens in the urban

2714
04:04:39,060 --> 04:04:44,463
area. And that is PBS 0. 26. 006. Take it

2715
04:04:44,463 --> 04:04:47,343
away. Thank you. Who from planning is going to handle

2716
04:04:47,423 --> 04:04:51,685
that. Thank you. If I can, um, introduce this Nicholas

2717
04:04:51,925 --> 04:04:56,005
Kloet sustainability coordinator for the town. Um, yeah, happy to

2718
04:04:56,085 --> 04:05:00,965
introduce this report and the associated proposed draft urban hens

2719
04:05:01,125 --> 04:05:04,965
bylaw. Um, so last year, sustainability and planning staff were

2720
04:05:05,045 --> 04:05:07,845
directed to collaborate on bold action seven in the blue

2721
04:05:07,845 --> 04:05:10,965
mountains future story, which focuses on expanding production of local

2722
04:05:11,205 --> 04:05:14,763
food. More recently in October, planning staff were directed to

2723
04:05:14,843 --> 04:05:17,963
respond to a deputation on the subject of backyard chickens.

2724
04:05:18,842 --> 04:05:22,202
Brought forward by a Mr. Andrew Simon. So we're proposing

2725
04:05:22,282 --> 04:05:24,762
that a bylaw that would apply to the town's urban

2726
04:05:24,842 --> 04:05:28,842
areas, enabling urban hens would help to increase urban agricultural

2727
04:05:29,162 --> 04:05:33,482
opportunities in a fair and even way. Um, preparing the

2728
04:05:34,042 --> 04:05:37,802
draft bylaw involved review of other Ontario municipalities, their respective

2729
04:05:37,962 --> 04:05:41,882
animal control or zoning bylaws. We drew out relevant clauses

2730
04:05:42,122 --> 04:05:44,842
for the town that we felt would be applicable and

2731
04:05:44,922 --> 04:05:48,042
important. Um, and a first draft was reviewed and contributed

2732
04:05:48,122 --> 04:05:52,464
to by sustainability, planning and bylaw staff. Uh, some quick

2733
04:05:52,624 --> 04:05:56,489
highlights from that. This would apply to residential zones and

2734
04:05:56,649 --> 04:05:59,769
does not change anything for agricultural or rural zones, uh,

2735
04:06:00,169 --> 04:06:03,129
were proposing a maximum of six hens per residential property

2736
04:06:03,609 --> 04:06:07,529
with no roosters. Uh, the bylaw includes requirements around minimum

2737
04:06:07,929 --> 04:06:11,769
setbacks from neighboring properties, minimum floor area and heights for

2738
04:06:11,769 --> 04:06:15,529
the coup and run requirements around manure management, maintenance of

2739
04:06:16,729 --> 04:06:20,809
a cleanly environment and other requirements to maximize bird health,

2740
04:06:20,729 --> 04:06:24,169
and minimize risks to neighbors, uh, we're also requiring that

2741
04:06:24,569 --> 04:06:28,089
urban hen owners register with the chicken farmers of Ontario,

2742
04:06:28,009 --> 04:06:32,249
uh, family food program. Uh, that program ensures that, uh,

2743
04:06:32,569 --> 04:06:35,289
owners are notified if the disease outbreak within a certain

2744
04:06:35,449 --> 04:06:37,689
distance and it provides owners with up to date information

2745
04:06:39,369 --> 04:06:43,609
on best practices to ensure their chickens are healthy and

2746
04:06:43,689 --> 04:06:47,289
safe. Um, and the town can contact the CFO at

2747
04:06:47,449 --> 04:06:50,409
any time to verify a specific address is registered for

2748
04:06:50,409 --> 04:06:54,329
that program or not. Uh, also administrative monetary penalties to

2749
04:06:54,809 --> 04:06:58,169
encourage compliance with the bylaw and to compensate staff time

2750
04:06:58,409 --> 04:07:02,169
associated with responding to any valid complaints. Um, there is

2751
04:07:02,809 --> 04:07:07,209
a, um, public consultation process would begin in mid -

2752
04:07:07,209 --> 04:07:11,769
February with release of information on the town's website, followed

2753
04:07:11,769 --> 04:07:13,929
by a public meeting at the end of March. I

2754
04:07:13,849 --> 04:07:17,289
think March 31st is the date. And so, um, that's

2755
04:07:17,369 --> 04:07:21,449
the process we would follow to receive input from members

2756
04:07:21,449 --> 04:07:24,809
of the public. I'll also note that, um, Mr. Simon,

2757
04:07:24,729 --> 04:07:27,129
uh, has been notified of this report and provided with

2758
04:07:27,209 --> 04:07:30,569
the information and the, um, the schedule for, um, the

2759
04:07:30,889 --> 04:07:37,179
public information. Thank you. Thank you. And, um, anything further

2760
04:07:37,339 --> 04:07:40,219
from the planning department. That's the introduction. Okay. Thank you.

2761
04:07:41,419 --> 04:07:45,019
Uh, so I see that, uh, we have counselor Adele's

2762
04:07:45,019 --> 04:07:46,699
hand up. She's ready to make a comment. Thank you.

2763
04:07:48,279 --> 04:07:51,479
Thank you very much. Um, an excellent report and very

2764
04:07:51,479 --> 04:07:57,559
thorough. And, um, I noticed that you even did some

2765
04:07:57,559 --> 04:08:03,239
research on other municipalities. And yes, down in Niagara region,

2766
04:08:03,239 --> 04:08:07,159
they're probably allowed for a maximum. And, uh, so allowing

2767
04:08:08,119 --> 04:08:12,919
six in our urban Blue Mountains. I think that's a

2768
04:08:12,839 --> 04:08:19,799
great idea. You know, having lots of rooms to have

2769
04:08:19,799 --> 04:08:24,999
a chicken coop, which helps, uh, with the airing them

2770
04:08:24,999 --> 04:08:28,359
out, I will say, when we do chickens, we do

2771
04:08:28,999 --> 04:08:30,999
40 to 50 to 60 at a time, but we

2772
04:08:30,919 --> 04:08:34,199
do have a barn and an indoor enclosure for them.

2773
04:08:34,119 --> 04:08:38,199
So yeah, I think this is excellent, but those are

2774
04:08:38,679 --> 04:08:43,079
for outdoor use. And, uh, I would say if anybody

2775
04:08:43,159 --> 04:08:47,799
else being a farmer as I am, we do have

2776
04:08:47,959 --> 04:08:51,159
chickens. So, um, I know what I'm talking about here.

2777
04:08:51,079 --> 04:08:54,279
So, um, yeah, I, when the time comes, I will

2778
04:08:54,279 --> 04:08:58,367
move the report. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Dell. I

2779
04:08:58,527 --> 04:09:01,247
see Councillor McKinley would like to speak. Thank you, Madam

2780
04:09:01,247 --> 04:09:04,447
Chair. Through you, uh, thank you for the report. And

2781
04:09:04,447 --> 04:09:06,847
I think it's wonderful news to see us making this

2782
04:09:07,007 --> 04:09:10,447
progressive step for the urban, uh, for the urban feature.

2783
04:09:10,367 --> 04:09:12,767
But I do have a question through you, Madam Chair,

2784
04:09:12,767 --> 04:09:19,007
to, uh, to probably planning, not necessarily excluding Mr. Cluette.

2785
04:09:18,927 --> 04:09:21,007
But when it comes to the urban nature of it,

2786
04:09:20,927 --> 04:09:22,847
we just, uh, how can we make sure it's very

2787
04:09:23,007 --> 04:09:26,047
well defined in here that it's, or very well spelt

2788
04:09:26,127 --> 04:09:30,047
out that there are, as Councillor Adele said, like in

2789
04:09:30,047 --> 04:09:33,167
my area, for the last couple of hundred years, people

2790
04:09:33,407 --> 04:09:38,207
have kept hens, chickens, in the barns or in their

2791
04:09:38,287 --> 04:09:42,287
farms, right? These are not, this, this bylaw and this

2792
04:09:42,287 --> 04:09:44,687
and this structure is not applicable to those of us

2793
04:09:44,927 --> 04:09:51,140
in the rural parts. Through you, Madam Chair, the bylaw

2794
04:09:51,140 --> 04:09:54,820
is not applicable to the rural area. And we had

2795
04:09:54,900 --> 04:09:58,500
that on mine only termed it, the urban hens bylaw

2796
04:09:59,140 --> 04:10:02,020
to acknowledge and respect the different types of practices that

2797
04:10:02,420 --> 04:10:05,780
are permitted in the agricultural community and the rural area.

2798
04:10:05,700 --> 04:10:09,432
There's a very clear distinction. Excellent. Thank you through you,

2799
04:10:09,352 --> 04:10:12,681
Madam Chair, just to follow up. Of course. Go ahead.

2800
04:10:12,761 --> 04:10:16,201
Thank you. Yes. So I appreciate your answer, Mr. Farr.

2801
04:10:16,121 --> 04:10:18,041
That's, that's, that's great. And as long as we just

2802
04:10:18,121 --> 04:10:21,881
keep, uh, keep that very front of focus, uh, this

2803
04:10:21,881 --> 04:10:24,601
is for the urban areas only, uh, but I do

2804
04:10:24,681 --> 04:10:27,161
have a question as a follow up though. Uh, as

2805
04:10:27,161 --> 04:10:30,361
it may as it may be, uh, so barring the,

2806
04:10:30,281 --> 04:10:36,521
uh, ability for, uh, registration and registering said, uh, backyard

2807
04:10:36,841 --> 04:10:41,401
hens, um, like we've, I think it's great. The beginning

2808
04:10:41,641 --> 04:10:45,161
stage with the parameters for the, uh, the coupe sizes

2809
04:10:45,401 --> 04:10:48,521
and everything like that. What is it that we expected?

2810
04:10:48,441 --> 04:10:50,281
Oh, maybe I should be looking to where it's more

2811
04:10:50,361 --> 04:10:55,481
building. Mr Morowski, because what is it we're expecting to

2812
04:10:56,281 --> 04:11:00,201
cross here whenever there's already pre - established backyard hand

2813
04:11:00,521 --> 04:11:03,001
pens? Like we don't, like we don't want to get

2814
04:11:03,401 --> 04:11:05,161
step, we don't want to step in it. No pun

2815
04:11:05,241 --> 04:11:09,961
intended for they're already being pre - existing backyard pens

2816
04:11:10,121 --> 04:11:13,481
with hens and how we're going to assimilate them into

2817
04:11:13,641 --> 04:11:21,376
this program. Go ahead. Thank you. Through you, Madam Chair,

2818
04:11:21,296 --> 04:11:24,576
just to understand the question correctly with regards to the

2819
04:11:24,736 --> 04:11:28,656
building department, you're asking about like the size of pins,

2820
04:11:28,576 --> 04:11:31,216
the number of pence and how that would be implemented.

2821
04:11:31,216 --> 04:11:36,016
Correct. And from a henceforth nature because we've just, I'm

2822
04:11:36,016 --> 04:11:39,376
not trying to be funny. Sorry. I do get the

2823
04:11:39,456 --> 04:11:41,376
humor so I didn't even, I wasn't even trying for

2824
04:11:41,376 --> 04:11:44,656
that one, Madam Chair. But, uh, moving in a more,

2825
04:11:44,656 --> 04:11:47,856
in a moving forward fashion because there already will be,

2826
04:11:48,816 --> 04:11:51,696
some that will be preexisting. So how can we conform

2827
04:11:51,776 --> 04:11:55,456
them to what we've just, uh, come up with, sorry.

2828
04:11:56,305 --> 04:12:00,145
Go ahead, anybody. Go ahead, Mr. Farrha. Perhaps that far

2829
04:12:00,705 --> 04:12:06,767
could go ahead. So through the proposed bylaw, we expect

2830
04:12:06,767 --> 04:12:09,247
to hear from the dream, Adam Chair, we expect to

2831
04:12:09,247 --> 04:12:12,047
hear from the public. We don't have a full understanding

2832
04:12:12,367 --> 04:12:16,687
of the scale of how many existing properties would have

2833
04:12:16,927 --> 04:12:19,647
chicken coops and own hens right now. But we're hoping

2834
04:12:19,647 --> 04:12:23,887
to hear from these folks through the public engagement process.

2835
04:12:23,807 --> 04:12:26,287
And, uh, as those issues come forward, we're going to

2836
04:12:26,367 --> 04:12:28,527
deal with them in the context of the review of

2837
04:12:28,607 --> 04:12:34,357
the bylaw. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. That's an

2838
04:12:34,437 --> 04:12:36,197
important to note that in the report that there is

2839
04:12:36,277 --> 04:12:39,797
a public engagement process after today. So thank you. Go

2840
04:12:39,797 --> 04:12:43,477
ahead director Morowski. Yes, thank you Madam Chair. If I

2841
04:12:43,477 --> 04:12:46,997
could add just due to the size of these buildings,

2842
04:12:47,077 --> 04:12:50,597
the structures and buildings that are not regulated by the

2843
04:12:50,997 --> 04:12:53,237
building code because of the size of that. So again,

2844
04:12:53,717 --> 04:12:55,957
when we have these public meetings and we'll have to

2845
04:12:55,957 --> 04:13:01,776
discuss some of these issues. Right. Thank you. Councillor Maxwell,

2846
04:13:01,696 --> 04:13:10,580
go ahead. Thank you, Madam Chair. And, uh. Definitely, uh,

2847
04:13:11,540 --> 04:13:15,541
support this. Um, I just kind of wondering, I have

2848
04:13:15,541 --> 04:13:20,751
a question here. Given that all chickens are not created

2849
04:13:20,911 --> 04:13:25,934
equal. So we got, it says six hands, but I

2850
04:13:25,854 --> 04:13:30,334
mean, you know, can they, are we talking about banties?

2851
04:13:30,254 --> 04:13:34,174
Are we talking about rural island reds? What are we

2852
04:13:34,174 --> 04:13:38,734
doing? Are there you being that specific on what people

2853
04:13:38,974 --> 04:13:46,959
can have and not have. Go ahead. Thank you, Madam

2854
04:13:46,959 --> 04:13:50,559
Chair, through you. Um, we're not really getting specific as

2855
04:13:50,559 --> 04:13:53,919
long as it's a female hen. So at least, you

2856
04:13:53,839 --> 04:13:57,679
know, four months old so they can be properly sexed.

2857
04:13:57,599 --> 04:14:01,839
But, um, we've also considered for the minimum space requirements

2858
04:14:01,919 --> 04:14:05,679
for hens. I mean, there's different sizes, but, um, the

2859
04:14:05,839 --> 04:14:09,759
minimum floor area per hand is being considered in terms

2860
04:14:09,759 --> 04:14:11,919
of if it's larger or smaller, it should be sufficient.

2861
04:14:15,141 --> 04:14:17,061
Go ahead. Yeah. I just have a follow up. So

2862
04:14:17,621 --> 04:14:20,661
actually when I was like counselor Ardell, I was looking

2863
04:14:20,741 --> 04:14:25,188
up some different municipalities. A clear view. You know, they

2864
04:14:25,268 --> 04:14:33,448
have support backyard hands. Definitely a rural community. Municipality. And

2865
04:14:33,768 --> 04:14:42,708
Kingston. They also support it, but they. Also qualify foul.

2866
04:14:42,628 --> 04:14:46,355
Like chicken at our foul, I assume. And so what

2867
04:14:46,435 --> 04:14:49,155
happens if somebody wants to put ducks in their chicken

2868
04:14:49,395 --> 04:14:55,317
coop? Is that permitted. Go ahead. Through you, Madam Chair,

2869
04:14:55,237 --> 04:14:58,357
the way the bylaws currently written, um, know they would,

2870
04:14:58,357 --> 04:15:01,237
they would not be permitted. Um, they may pose a

2871
04:15:01,237 --> 04:15:06,357
different consideration from noise perspective, uh, compared to hens, but,

2872
04:15:06,277 --> 04:15:08,917
um, we would need to do some, some extra digging

2873
04:15:09,077 --> 04:15:12,197
to find some, some examples of, of docs. If that

2874
04:15:12,277 --> 04:15:15,797
comes through the public consultation that people really want ducks,

2875
04:15:15,797 --> 04:15:18,288
we can, we can look into that. Thank you. So

2876
04:15:18,848 --> 04:15:25,352
it will be somewhat of a restrictive bylaw then. It

2877
04:15:25,432 --> 04:15:29,272
enables something new, but yeah, it's, it's specific to, uh,

2878
04:15:29,432 --> 04:15:37,842
to hence. Thank you. Councillor Adel. Yes. Thank you very

2879
04:15:37,842 --> 04:15:40,962
much. And, uh, yeah, I think we would have to

2880
04:15:41,042 --> 04:15:46,002
do that. We had Guinea that were most disruptive. We

2881
04:15:46,242 --> 04:15:50,002
started off with three and four. And they are very

2882
04:15:50,322 --> 04:15:53,922
loud. And you definitely don't want those in the urban

2883
04:15:54,242 --> 04:15:57,522
area, but they are considered a hand still. So I

2884
04:15:57,522 --> 04:16:02,322
think we'd have to really limit it to chickens. And

2885
04:16:02,322 --> 04:16:04,242
also I would like to say, and I forgot to

2886
04:16:04,242 --> 04:16:06,322
do this with my follow - up. Um, I think

2887
04:16:07,042 --> 04:16:11,762
the strategic initiatives communication team needs to put this out,

2888
04:16:11,682 --> 04:16:17,122
um, after a public meeting, um, we need to quantify

2889
04:16:17,522 --> 04:16:23,122
and qualify all of what this chicken, um, backyard is

2890
04:16:23,282 --> 04:16:26,082
all about, um, because we still have questions coming through

2891
04:16:27,122 --> 04:16:29,442
as the chair of the agricultural that we didn't get

2892
04:16:29,602 --> 04:16:34,002
enough communication out to the urban, uh, to the rural

2893
04:16:34,402 --> 04:16:39,442
individuals. And they are still upset because they feel that

2894
04:16:39,762 --> 04:16:45,842
communication was not adequate enough for our rural areas. So

2895
04:16:46,082 --> 04:16:48,642
what I would like to see once we have our

2896
04:16:48,802 --> 04:16:52,162
public meeting or even before the public meeting that the

2897
04:16:52,322 --> 04:16:55,922
rule individuals, if we can put it on our website,

2898
04:16:55,842 --> 04:17:00,802
if we at the next Blue Mountain review that something

2899
04:17:00,882 --> 04:17:07,202
is mentioned about chickens and that we don't want people

2900
04:17:07,682 --> 04:17:11,842
phoning property standards, you know, we just, this is something

2901
04:17:12,002 --> 04:17:17,042
that needs to be communicated out. Um, and some individuals

2902
04:17:17,602 --> 04:17:21,522
in our egg meeting thought that, uh, there wasn't enough.

2903
04:17:21,442 --> 04:17:27,122
So I'm just expressing concern from the rural people, um,

2904
04:17:27,282 --> 04:17:32,631
it needs to be open and transparent. Thank you. Any

2905
04:17:32,791 --> 04:17:36,838
comments from planning. You can go ahead. If I may,

2906
04:17:36,758 --> 04:17:40,598
thank you, Madam Chair. We'll certainly make sure that our

2907
04:17:40,758 --> 04:17:44,838
communications across multiple platforms put front and center that this

2908
04:17:44,918 --> 04:17:48,358
is for the urban settlement areas and does not affect

2909
04:17:48,678 --> 04:17:53,558
rural or agricultural residents. Um, I'd also be willing to,

2910
04:17:53,478 --> 04:17:56,118
um, bring this to the agricultural advisory committee if there

2911
04:17:56,118 --> 04:18:00,358
was an opportunity to speak with them. Um, also just,

2912
04:18:00,278 --> 04:18:02,838
um, just, um, just on an earlier note, I was

2913
04:18:02,918 --> 04:18:05,558
looking at the definition of, uh, of urban hens, which

2914
04:18:05,798 --> 04:18:08,358
specifies the keeping of female chickens or pellets. And I

2915
04:18:08,358 --> 04:18:11,238
wonder if that might be specific enough to exclude, um,

2916
04:18:11,718 --> 04:18:15,478
guinea fowl or other types of hen. But thank you.

2917
04:18:17,435 --> 04:18:21,835
Thank you. Um, I don't see any other hands. I

2918
04:18:21,835 --> 04:18:25,744
just have a, excuse me. I just have a question

2919
04:18:26,224 --> 04:18:30,668
one. I looked at the fines. It seemed to me

2920
04:18:31,228 --> 04:18:36,394
that thinking about the fact that this residential. That 200

2921
04:18:36,554 --> 04:18:40,714
bucks basically for possessing a rooster, it's kind of low.

2922
04:18:40,634 --> 04:18:42,554
And it would be sort of the sin of sins

2923
04:18:42,634 --> 04:18:45,194
really, because that would be, you know, highly disruptive to

2924
04:18:45,194 --> 04:18:48,446
have a rooster there. Plus, um, any other follows that

2925
04:18:48,686 --> 04:18:52,766
happened with roosters that I don't know about, um, but,

2926
04:18:52,686 --> 04:18:56,926
um, does that make sense? I mean, through me too.

2927
04:18:57,726 --> 04:19:02,968
Whoever can handle that one. Go ahead, Mr. Tuer. Thank

2928
04:19:02,968 --> 04:19:05,288
you, Madam Chair. Um, I think what we can do

2929
04:19:06,088 --> 04:19:10,008
is look to a draft copy of the bylaw. And,

2930
04:19:09,928 --> 04:19:14,088
uh, we're using that as the base for a public

2931
04:19:14,168 --> 04:19:17,368
meeting, for people to comment on this and how we

2932
04:19:17,368 --> 04:19:20,168
can make any changes, if necessary on here. So that

2933
04:19:20,808 --> 04:19:22,888
if everybody could kind of look to the draft by

2934
04:19:23,048 --> 04:19:26,698
law and then we can work with that. Perfect. Thank

2935
04:19:26,698 --> 04:19:32,263
you very much. Appreciate it. Now Councillor Maxwell, second pass.

2936
04:19:33,430 --> 04:19:36,950
I just wanted to comment on your, your, the rooster

2937
04:19:37,350 --> 04:19:42,481
at the 200 bucks. Yeah. Uh, the, uh, the people

2938
04:19:42,481 --> 04:19:45,681
who own the hens may need a rooster to visit.

2939
04:19:47,230 --> 04:19:49,950
In order to maintain the flock. So I'm just, uh,

2940
04:19:51,230 --> 04:19:52,670
we'd have to be very careful on that one, I

2941
04:19:52,590 --> 04:19:57,020
think. I think we're anyway, we'll talk about it. Thank

2942
04:19:57,100 --> 04:20:02,700
you. I see Councillor McKinley. I'm wondering if, are we

2943
04:20:02,700 --> 04:20:05,180
on to our way to a motion? Yes. Um, well,

2944
04:20:05,660 --> 04:20:08,940
Council, sir, Madam Chair, counselor Ardell had indicated she was

2945
04:20:09,020 --> 04:20:11,660
moving. I was going to second it. Yes. Um, but

2946
04:20:11,900 --> 04:20:14,220
I know she's the mover. And if you'll allow me,

2947
04:20:14,140 --> 04:20:18,380
Madam Chair, uh, counselor Ardell, if there's enough time that

2948
04:20:18,380 --> 04:20:22,060
we could circulate this, this bylaw and this discussion to

2949
04:20:22,220 --> 04:20:26,397
the advisory committee. Is there another meeting for the eggvisory

2950
04:20:26,877 --> 04:20:30,157
in the near future? Yes. So, uh, if the mover

2951
04:20:30,157 --> 04:20:32,157
would be allowed to be okay with it, I would

2952
04:20:32,157 --> 04:20:35,357
like to add an end that council direct staff to

2953
04:20:35,437 --> 04:20:39,677
circulate this, uh, bylaw or this information to the egg

2954
04:20:39,837 --> 04:20:45,686
advisory committee for their review and comment. Are you meneral

2955
04:20:45,606 --> 04:20:51,106
to that counselor? Dell. I'm thinking back to our ag

2956
04:20:51,266 --> 04:20:53,106
meeting. We didn't have any motions, but I think I

2957
04:20:53,426 --> 04:20:57,266
did mention this. Councillor Maxwell, do you recall that I

2958
04:20:57,266 --> 04:21:01,506
mentioned about a hen bylaw coming in and it wouldn't

2959
04:21:01,666 --> 04:21:06,626
affect the rural areas. But, um, nobody made any comments.

2960
04:21:06,546 --> 04:21:09,506
So that's why I'm pretty sure I mentioned it, but,

2961
04:21:09,426 --> 04:21:16,751
uh, I could be wrong. Councillor Maxwell. That conversation escapes

2962
04:21:16,751 --> 04:21:21,311
me. I don't remember that one. Okay. Well then chair

2963
04:21:21,631 --> 04:21:23,311
and the words of my uncle one more time won't

2964
04:21:23,471 --> 04:21:27,254
hurt. Go right ahead. If you could give us the

2965
04:21:27,254 --> 04:21:32,533
words or perhaps we are getting. Madam Clerk is putting

2966
04:21:32,533 --> 04:21:35,564
that together. And we would want to include in the

2967
04:21:35,564 --> 04:21:44,172
information and an invitation to the public meeting. Thank you,

2968
04:21:44,092 --> 04:21:46,492
Madam Clerk, for that. Do you want to read it

2969
04:21:46,492 --> 04:21:49,932
out too, please? Certainly, Madam Chair. Emotion reads as follows.

2970
04:21:52,684 --> 04:21:57,084
The council received staff report PBS 26006 entitled report in

2971
04:21:57,084 --> 04:22:00,044
response to the deputation of Andrew Simon re - allowing

2972
04:22:00,284 --> 04:22:04,923
backyard. Backyard chickens in the urban area. And that council

2973
04:22:05,003 --> 04:22:09,083
direct staff to advance the draft urban hens bylaw being

2974
04:22:09,083 --> 04:22:12,203
attachment to for public consultation generally in accordance with the

2975
04:22:12,283 --> 04:22:16,923
schedule contained within this report PBS 26006. And the council

2976
04:22:17,003 --> 04:22:21,083
direct staff to circulate staff report PBS 26006 to the

2977
04:22:21,323 --> 04:22:26,363
agricultural advisory committee for review and comment. And Madam Chair,

2978
04:22:26,443 --> 04:22:29,323
just to note the next, um, egg advisory committee meeting

2979
04:22:29,323 --> 04:22:33,771
is March the 19th. All right. Thank you very much.

2980
04:22:33,771 --> 04:22:38,628
Um, Councillor Maxwell, is that an old hand. It is.

2981
04:22:38,548 --> 04:22:41,508
Okay. Um, so I think at this point I see

2982
04:22:41,588 --> 04:22:44,708
no other hands. Shall we please call the vote. Thank

2983
04:22:44,788 --> 04:22:47,121
you. Thank you Madam Chair. The vote is open.

2984
04:23:00,954 --> 04:23:04,407
The vote is closed. Thank you, Madam Clerk. And the

2985
04:23:04,487 --> 04:23:06,967
motion has carried six nothing with Mayor Way today. Thank

2986
04:23:07,047 --> 04:23:10,567
you. Moving on to the next item for the planning

2987
04:23:10,567 --> 04:23:15,619
section. B 0. 9. 2 removal of holding symbol. 12

2988
04:23:15,699 --> 04:23:20,819
side road bed and breakfast, Lawson, PBS 0. 26. 016.

2989
04:23:20,739 --> 04:23:22,099
And who will be taking the lead on that one?

2990
04:23:24,424 --> 04:23:29,110
Okay. Go ahead. When you're ready. Cu.

2991
04:23:42,263 --> 04:23:44,743
Good afternoon, Madam Chair and Councillors. My name is Manuel

2992
04:23:44,983 --> 04:23:47,863
Rivera. I'm a planner one with a town Blue Mountains.

2993
04:23:47,783 --> 04:23:49,863
And I'm here to discuss the following staff report with

2994
04:23:50,103 --> 04:23:54,663
respects to removing holding symbol H34 from 12 side road.

2995
04:23:55,581 --> 04:23:57,981
To allow the approval of bed and breakfast use to

2996
04:23:58,061 --> 04:24:02,301
proceed in 2019 council approved a zoning bylaw amendment to

2997
04:24:02,381 --> 04:24:04,861
permit a Ben breakfast on the property subject to a

2998
04:24:05,341 --> 04:24:08,701
holding provision requiring confirmation that the owner resides on the

2999
04:24:08,861 --> 04:24:13,501
property as their primary residence in December of 2025. The

3000
04:24:13,501 --> 04:24:16,301
owner applied for a Ben breakfast license and requested the

3001
04:24:16,461 --> 04:24:20,061
holding to be lifted. And as proof of prime residents

3002
04:24:20,221 --> 04:24:24,301
was submitted such as a change of address confirmation letter

3003
04:24:24,301 --> 04:24:28,141
from the ministry of transportation, which is an acceptable proof

3004
04:24:28,941 --> 04:24:34,492
of interim proof until the updated identifications issued. And this

3005
04:24:34,652 --> 04:24:37,932
change of address confirmation letter demonstrates that the owner will

3006
04:24:38,012 --> 04:24:41,932
be residing on site, meeting the requirements of section 4.

3007
04:24:42,252 --> 04:24:45,692
8D of the zoning bylaw as a result, the holding

3008
04:24:45,772 --> 04:24:49,468
provision has been satisfied. And with council approval, planning staff

3009
04:24:49,708 --> 04:24:53,308
has prepared by law to lift the holding provision from

3010
04:24:53,388 --> 04:24:57,228
the property. And that concludes the report. Thank you very

3011
04:24:57,228 --> 04:25:01,228
much. Now, uh, any comments from members of council are

3012
04:25:01,228 --> 04:25:05,629
questions. Depp Mayor, go ahead. Thank you, Madam Chair, through

3013
04:25:05,869 --> 04:25:11,869
you. Thank you, Manuel. Um, are the proponents aware of,

3014
04:25:11,789 --> 04:25:15,949
um, changing your driver's license is one thing, but aware

3015
04:25:16,109 --> 04:25:20,509
that in the class licensing system, the provisions for Ben

3016
04:25:20,589 --> 04:25:23,789
Breakfast and the consequences, if it's operated with them, not

3017
04:25:23,789 --> 04:25:25,789
on site as an STA. We've had, I'm not saying

3018
04:25:26,189 --> 04:25:28,269
these people are going to do that, but just is

3019
04:25:28,349 --> 04:25:30,589
that part of the process from the, from the planning

3020
04:25:30,669 --> 04:25:34,109
department and as my law been involved as well, um,

3021
04:25:34,429 --> 04:25:37,149
because we have very stringent STA laws and class systems

3022
04:25:37,229 --> 04:25:39,977
within our amps. So I was just wondering, part of

3023
04:25:40,217 --> 04:25:43,417
the education process to that to the applicants. Is that,

3024
04:25:43,417 --> 04:25:50,035
has that been done? Through you, Madam Chair. With in

3025
04:25:50,035 --> 04:25:54,515
terms of laws aspect in the Benton breakfast licensing, as

3026
04:25:54,515 --> 04:25:57,715
noted in the report, usually they will request primary proof

3027
04:25:58,275 --> 04:26:00,435
of residency, which is usually in a form of their

3028
04:26:00,435 --> 04:26:04,835
driver's license, which indicates that they are residing in the

3029
04:26:04,995 --> 04:26:08,915
subject property as their primary resident. It can't be, let's

3030
04:26:09,155 --> 04:26:14,195
say a mailing address whatsoever. So therefore in that respect,

3031
04:26:14,195 --> 04:26:16,663
they would have to reside. If not. I would hate

3032
04:26:16,743 --> 04:26:19,623
to think that somebody would pull them over from the

3033
04:26:19,703 --> 04:26:24,423
police in that respect and request the drivers identification in

3034
04:26:24,423 --> 04:26:28,882
that regard. Could I just follow them? Yes, go ahead.

3035
04:26:30,848 --> 04:26:32,528
Thank you. Yeah. I think we're going to have a

3036
04:26:32,448 --> 04:26:35,888
different road. I do appreciate that and that they're satisfied

3037
04:26:35,968 --> 04:26:39,088
it, but just again, I've been have evolved with STA

3038
04:26:39,328 --> 04:26:43,262
for the longer that I can remember. As long as

3039
04:26:43,342 --> 04:26:46,782
the applicants know, and I'm not saying that they're not

3040
04:26:46,862 --> 04:26:49,982
doing this, as long as they know the true provisions

3041
04:26:50,062 --> 04:26:54,302
of a bed and breakfast, um, is, is very prescriptive

3042
04:26:54,462 --> 04:26:58,302
compared to a regular STA or a nonconforming SDA. So

3043
04:26:58,862 --> 04:27:02,142
I want to know if part of the process that

3044
04:27:02,222 --> 04:27:05,022
all that was explained, um, not just showing your proof

3045
04:27:05,102 --> 04:27:07,502
of a driver's license. Is that part of the application

3046
04:27:07,982 --> 04:27:11,165
process or the planning process. Um, because it's a two

3047
04:27:11,325 --> 04:27:14,285
- part contingent planning as well to do the bylaw

3048
04:27:14,365 --> 04:27:17,005
as well as our regular SDA bylaws and our AMPS

3049
04:27:17,005 --> 04:27:19,805
penalties, which have, uh, which have been rewritten a couple

3050
04:27:19,885 --> 04:27:24,821
of times over the past eight years. Go ahead, Mr.

3051
04:27:24,981 --> 04:27:29,781
Rivera. Through you, Madam Chair, that part of the, our

3052
04:27:29,861 --> 04:27:32,581
review of the bylaw would be included reviewing the use

3053
04:27:32,981 --> 04:27:35,781
that's permitted as of right, which abandoned breakfast is permitted

3054
04:27:36,021 --> 04:27:40,006
due to the previous zoning bylaw amendment. And we do

3055
04:27:41,046 --> 04:27:43,926
issue planning clearance letters in this particular case, we could

3056
04:27:44,326 --> 04:27:47,846
update the letter to reflect that that request noting that

3057
04:27:48,166 --> 04:27:51,606
they are to comply with the revisions in section 4.

3058
04:27:51,766 --> 04:27:55,926
8 breakfast, which includes that they are to reside in

3059
04:27:56,006 --> 04:27:58,966
that use permitted as of right. If they were to

3060
04:27:59,126 --> 04:28:01,366
continue to operate as a bed and breakfast and not

3061
04:28:01,366 --> 04:28:09,209
as an STA. Maybe that's something you want to enshrine

3062
04:28:09,209 --> 04:28:12,809
in the motion. Thank you, Madam Chair. If I could

3063
04:28:12,809 --> 04:28:16,329
just indulge me for one quick second through you. Is

3064
04:28:16,569 --> 04:28:19,769
that part and parcel? Like not, we shouldn't have to

3065
04:28:20,009 --> 04:28:24,207
enshrine it in this motion. Like it should be regular

3066
04:28:24,607 --> 04:28:27,967
course of business. Um, to let people know, um, again,

3067
04:28:27,967 --> 04:28:32,447
I helped write that bylaws and those, and those categories.

3068
04:28:32,367 --> 04:28:36,447
So I know them. But the people that are applying,

3069
04:28:36,367 --> 04:28:40,447
do they, well that, is that done normal course of

3070
04:28:40,447 --> 04:28:43,167
business, I guess, is the crux of my main question.

3071
04:28:43,087 --> 04:28:45,967
If somebody's looking for a BNB, don't just show me

3072
04:28:46,207 --> 04:28:49,247
driver's license. Do you know the circumstances what you have

3073
04:28:49,247 --> 04:28:52,527
to reside with property? Is that enshrined in all the,

3074
04:28:52,447 --> 04:28:55,247
in the agreements and in the, in the, um, for

3075
04:28:55,247 --> 04:28:57,407
the applicants. And I'm not saying the applicants are doing

3076
04:28:57,407 --> 04:28:59,647
anything wrong. And we've probably great operators. I'm just saying

3077
04:29:00,767 --> 04:29:02,927
whoever it is, when they're applying for a bed and

3078
04:29:03,007 --> 04:29:06,047
breakfast license, are they aware of what categories they need

3079
04:29:06,127 --> 04:29:08,767
to be in, what contingencies they need to have resideful

3080
04:29:08,847 --> 04:29:13,087
time in the property. And what circumstances, uh, will come

3081
04:29:14,047 --> 04:29:17,407
if that is being a circumvented. I'm just asking if

3082
04:29:17,407 --> 04:29:21,007
that's a normal part of the process. Mr. Postma has

3083
04:29:21,087 --> 04:29:23,727
his hand up. So he'll let us know. Thank you,

3084
04:29:23,647 --> 04:29:27,967
Madam Chair. To the Deputy Mayor, these applicants are well

3085
04:29:28,047 --> 04:29:30,447
aware of the bed and breakfast rules and requirements for

3086
04:29:30,527 --> 04:29:33,247
the town of Blue Mountains. Uh, they've been at this,

3087
04:29:33,167 --> 04:29:36,847
uh, process now for a couple of years, first obtaining,

3088
04:29:36,767 --> 04:29:39,247
uh, zoning approval, uh, it was a couple of years

3089
04:29:39,327 --> 04:29:43,380
ago now. Um, but they were still. They understood at

3090
04:29:43,380 --> 04:29:45,940
that time that they had to be living permanently at

3091
04:29:46,020 --> 04:29:49,220
that residence in order to obtain a bed and breakfast

3092
04:29:49,300 --> 04:29:52,100
license and being able to operate because they were not

3093
04:29:52,100 --> 04:29:54,420
living there at the time council at the time said,

3094
04:29:54,420 --> 04:29:56,900
okay, we're going to put a holding H34 symbol on

3095
04:29:56,900 --> 04:30:00,180
there to make sure that first we get confirmation that

3096
04:30:00,260 --> 04:30:03,540
you have moved there, um, you know, as you're permanent

3097
04:30:03,620 --> 04:30:07,700
location, which is what's been completed now, uh, so they're

3098
04:30:07,700 --> 04:30:10,500
well aware of the requirements, uh, bylaw has a very

3099
04:30:10,740 --> 04:30:13,780
strict and robust licensing program that Ben and Breakfast also

3100
04:30:13,860 --> 04:30:17,780
apply to. So there's still some additional requirements that these

3101
04:30:18,020 --> 04:30:20,100
owners will have to do. And part of that process

3102
04:30:20,500 --> 04:30:23,380
includes that education on how, uh, Ben and Breakfasts are

3103
04:30:23,380 --> 04:30:26,505
to be run. Great. Thank you, Madam Chair. And thanks

3104
04:30:26,585 --> 04:30:31,769
for that clarification, Mr. Posma. Thank you, Deputy Mayor. Councillor

3105
04:30:31,849 --> 04:30:36,879
Maxwell, you're next. I just have a comment what the

3106
04:30:36,959 --> 04:30:40,645
deputy mayor was saying there. So the bed and breakfast,

3107
04:30:40,565 --> 04:30:45,073
this particular bed and breakfast. Has went through significant hurdles.

3108
04:30:46,078 --> 04:30:51,611
To get to where they are. But, you know, you

3109
04:30:51,531 --> 04:30:55,771
can have other organizations, you know, who are in the

3110
04:30:55,931 --> 04:31:02,506
rental business circumvent all zoning and bylaws. So, um, I

3111
04:31:02,426 --> 04:31:04,426
just, I kind of wonder why even people would even

3112
04:31:04,426 --> 04:31:06,826
go through the bed and breakfast process where you can

3113
04:31:06,826 --> 04:31:09,946
just, you know, vacation homes by rentals, all that. They're

3114
04:31:10,026 --> 04:31:13,466
just circumventing everything. So, um, I think these people have

3115
04:31:13,546 --> 04:31:17,510
done the due diligence for sure. In my mind, they,

3116
04:31:17,590 --> 04:31:19,910
they went over and above what these other people are

3117
04:31:19,910 --> 04:31:26,050
doing currently right now circumventing everything. So anyway, any comment

3118
04:31:26,130 --> 04:31:32,020
on that to Mr. Postman. Uh, yeah, just a brief

3119
04:31:32,100 --> 04:31:34,900
comment, um, you know, the town does have quite a

3120
04:31:34,900 --> 04:31:39,780
strong and robust short term accommodation, hotel motel, bed and

3121
04:31:39,780 --> 04:31:43,179
breakfast, uh, program for the town. So whether they're vacation

3122
04:31:43,259 --> 04:31:45,259
homes or whatnot, they do need to operate within the

3123
04:31:45,659 --> 04:31:47,659
bylaws of the town. And if they aren't, we do

3124
04:31:47,659 --> 04:31:50,139
have an active bylaw enforcement that will go after those

3125
04:31:50,379 --> 04:31:53,179
ones that, uh, that aren't abiding by the rules. Um,

3126
04:31:53,579 --> 04:31:56,379
so I just want to be clear that, uh, for

3127
04:31:56,459 --> 04:32:00,699
the most part, operators are operating within their prescribed requirements.

3128
04:32:00,619 --> 04:32:04,059
And those who aren't, uh, are actively, uh, track down

3129
04:32:04,699 --> 04:32:14,526
and, uh, and dealt with. Thank you very much. Uh,

3130
04:32:15,886 --> 04:32:18,983
Council, sorry, Dell. You're next. Uh, yes. Thank you very

3131
04:32:18,983 --> 04:32:22,423
much, Madam Chair. Uh, same along the lines of the

3132
04:32:22,503 --> 04:32:27,383
Deputy Mayor. I've been at STA more than anybody. And,

3133
04:32:27,303 --> 04:32:30,103
uh, I don't know how many times we rewrote this.

3134
04:32:30,023 --> 04:32:33,143
And, uh, we had a lot of bed and breakfast

3135
04:32:33,223 --> 04:32:36,343
back in the day. And they were all very successful.

3136
04:32:36,343 --> 04:32:39,863
We all knew that they lived there full time. Um,

3137
04:32:40,263 --> 04:32:46,423
and my question then to Mr. Rivera is do both,

3138
04:32:46,343 --> 04:32:50,263
uh, owners who are on title, uh, have to prove

3139
04:32:50,983 --> 04:32:56,263
their residency or just one so that for tax, um,

3140
04:32:56,823 --> 04:33:00,743
purposes as well, um, if you're living there full time,

3141
04:33:00,663 --> 04:33:05,143
then both owners should have their license at the same

3142
04:33:05,783 --> 04:33:09,783
residence, not just one. So I'm not sure if that

3143
04:33:09,783 --> 04:33:14,423
was followed through, um, but, um, in the past, we

3144
04:33:14,503 --> 04:33:18,423
probably, and the signs at the bottom of Blue Mountain,

3145
04:33:18,343 --> 04:33:23,863
uh, Blue Mountain Resorts pointing to, uh, see BNBs, uh,

3146
04:33:24,103 --> 04:33:28,343
those people I know them, uh, they, they live there

3147
04:33:28,343 --> 04:33:31,223
full time 24 seven. So not saying that these people

3148
04:33:31,383 --> 04:33:36,343
are not. I just wondering if we have other safeguards,

3149
04:33:36,263 --> 04:33:40,903
um, in that as well, who's ever on title should

3150
04:33:41,063 --> 04:33:43,623
have to have permanent residents in the town of the

3151
04:33:43,783 --> 04:33:49,157
Blue Mountains. Go ahead, Mr. Postma or? Right. Yeah. I'll

3152
04:33:49,317 --> 04:33:53,077
tackle that one. So the way that the bylaw reads

3153
04:33:53,077 --> 04:33:56,997
is yes, the owner has to be living there permanently,

3154
04:33:56,917 --> 04:33:59,717
uh, while the bed and breakfast is being operated. Uh,

3155
04:34:00,197 --> 04:34:03,637
if the multiple owners on title, um, you know, which

3156
04:34:03,637 --> 04:34:07,077
does happen in a lot of cases, um, it's only

3157
04:34:07,157 --> 04:34:10,517
the operator that's required to have their permanent residence there.

3158
04:34:10,517 --> 04:34:14,357
So if it's being operated by one of the property

3159
04:34:14,517 --> 04:34:17,957
owners or two or multiple property owners, then yes, they

3160
04:34:18,037 --> 04:34:20,597
would have to have their permanent residents there, but it's

3161
04:34:20,757 --> 04:34:23,477
tied to the operator and the operator must have their

3162
04:34:23,557 --> 04:34:28,971
permanent address at that location. Well, thank you for clarifying

3163
04:34:29,211 --> 04:34:32,571
that. Um, but if it's a husband and wife team

3164
04:34:32,971 --> 04:34:35,291
and it's being advertised as that, I would think that

3165
04:34:35,531 --> 04:34:39,531
that's, um, a case in point where it should be

3166
04:34:40,411 --> 04:34:43,851
both operators on there, not just one operator. Thank you.

3167
04:34:45,565 --> 04:34:53,492
Thank you, Councillor Porter. Yes. Um. Thank you. And through

3168
04:34:53,492 --> 04:34:56,372
the chair and yes, I sort of share concerns because

3169
04:34:56,372 --> 04:34:58,612
just because something says something on a piece of paper

3170
04:34:59,252 --> 04:35:02,872
doesn't always make it true. And while I certainly believe

3171
04:35:03,112 --> 04:35:07,112
these proprietors are extremely well intentioned, it's nothing personal with

3172
04:35:07,192 --> 04:35:09,752
them is I just want to know what is the

3173
04:35:10,072 --> 04:35:13,592
penalty for this. And I know the STA amps have

3174
04:35:13,752 --> 04:35:18,552
been ongoing for some time now, but maybe what's the

3175
04:35:18,552 --> 04:35:23,540
current one. Does anybody know? And what is the penalty?

3176
04:35:23,700 --> 04:35:26,260
Because this is, you're removing the H, you're allowing them

3177
04:35:26,260 --> 04:35:29,259
to run, um, their business, which is fair. But what

3178
04:35:29,339 --> 04:35:37,897
if there isn't compliance. What happens? For you, Madam Chair.

3179
04:35:38,775 --> 04:35:40,935
That if that's the case, if they're not a compliance,

3180
04:35:40,855 --> 04:35:43,255
then they would have to answer to buy law enforcement

3181
04:35:44,055 --> 04:35:46,375
and whatever penalties there may be, they would have to

3182
04:35:46,695 --> 04:35:50,740
abide by them. If not, I would assume that they'd

3183
04:35:50,740 --> 04:35:54,180
be stricter actions involved, which may include removal of the

3184
04:35:54,340 --> 04:35:58,892
license in general. So I think has been mentioned earlier,

3185
04:35:58,812 --> 04:36:00,092
if I have just have a follow - up through

3186
04:36:00,172 --> 04:36:04,012
the chair, is it probably would be prudent to advise

3187
04:36:04,092 --> 04:36:10,092
them yet again, what the consequences would be if they

3188
04:36:10,092 --> 04:36:13,852
do not abide by it to be under percent sure

3189
04:36:13,852 --> 04:36:17,772
that they are fully informed. Um, so people can't come

3190
04:36:17,772 --> 04:36:21,292
back and say, Oh, I didn't know. Um, so just

3191
04:36:21,532 --> 04:36:24,525
do, it's really always a good reminder for them. And

3192
04:36:24,605 --> 04:36:27,405
equally reduce the risk of the town of not being,

3193
04:36:27,325 --> 04:36:29,885
uh, in a position to say, Oh, well, we weren't

3194
04:36:29,965 --> 04:36:33,880
informed. Thank you. And yes, we'll, uh, we'll do that.

3195
04:36:33,800 --> 04:36:38,760
We'll undertake that. Thank you, Mr. Postma. I have two

3196
04:36:38,840 --> 04:36:43,274
more hands up. Second pass. Three hands up. Councilor Maxwell.

3197
04:36:47,724 --> 04:36:49,964
Thank you, Madam Chair. Now this, I don't know. Maybe

3198
04:36:50,204 --> 04:36:53,964
this question doesn't matter or not, but it can a

3199
04:36:53,964 --> 04:36:57,084
corporation own a bed and breakfast or a numbered company.

3200
04:37:00,192 --> 04:37:02,672
Corporation is individual. So I just didn't know how that

3201
04:37:02,832 --> 04:37:07,238
works. Uh, no. The way the licensing bylaw works is

3202
04:37:07,398 --> 04:37:10,198
you have to be the owner. So corporations would not

3203
04:37:10,198 --> 04:37:18,250
qualify. Follow up. Thank you. Uh, Deputy Mary, go ahead.

3204
04:37:21,300 --> 04:37:23,300
Thank you very quickly through the chair just to answer

3205
04:37:23,460 --> 04:37:26,740
the question from Councillor Porter. It's 4, 000 for the

3206
04:37:26,660 --> 04:37:29,380
first offense 8, 000 for the second offense to operate

3207
04:37:29,940 --> 04:37:33,460
without a natural license or being within contradiction of that

3208
04:37:33,540 --> 04:37:37,380
license. So we council did this council did set those

3209
04:37:37,700 --> 04:37:42,529
amps rather. Aggressive level, just, just, just, just to make

3210
04:37:42,449 --> 04:37:45,169
sure that everybody does follow the rules. So just wanted

3211
04:37:45,249 --> 04:37:48,554
to let the council know that. Thank you very much,

3212
04:37:48,714 --> 04:37:54,330
Depumir. Council Sardell. Yes. Just quickly as well. Um, I,

3213
04:37:54,410 --> 04:37:59,130
you know, I've read the, um, the bylaw and the

3214
04:37:59,210 --> 04:38:03,130
zoning bylaw, but it doesn't state anything. And people will

3215
04:38:03,210 --> 04:38:05,050
come back and say, I didn't know I had to

3216
04:38:05,690 --> 04:38:08,330
live there. Um, and we did have that, uh, from

3217
04:38:08,890 --> 04:38:11,690
prices subdivision. That would be going back two years, two

3218
04:38:11,690 --> 04:38:14,890
and a half years. We remember they stated they lived

3219
04:38:14,970 --> 04:38:18,890
there. And then they didn't and they had other residents.

3220
04:38:18,810 --> 04:38:21,530
Um, as well. So, and they were using it as

3221
04:38:21,850 --> 04:38:23,290
they said it was a B and B and it

3222
04:38:23,290 --> 04:38:25,530
wasn't a B and B and it was an STA.

3223
04:38:25,450 --> 04:38:27,930
So I think we need to make the bylaw very

3224
04:38:28,010 --> 04:38:32,250
clear and concise and maybe have an appendix to it

3225
04:38:32,410 --> 04:38:37,530
stating that this you will be on site. Um, and

3226
04:38:37,610 --> 04:38:40,730
I don't think it's only us to draft something up

3227
04:38:40,730 --> 04:38:43,290
like that. I just think it should be in black

3228
04:38:43,370 --> 04:38:46,010
and white. So they can't come back like this other

3229
04:38:46,170 --> 04:38:49,290
individual. I didn't know that. So that's all I'll say.

3230
04:38:49,370 --> 04:38:54,367
Thank you. Okay. Thank you, Cancer. Dell at this point

3231
04:38:54,687 --> 04:38:57,087
we have a motion on the floor. And if we

3232
04:38:57,087 --> 04:38:59,567
want to propose motion. So if we want to make

3233
04:38:59,807 --> 04:39:03,087
any changes, we can. So ask Madam Clerk. Please put

3234
04:39:03,167 --> 04:39:06,127
the motion up as it stands. Removal of the holding

3235
04:39:06,207 --> 04:39:10,127
symbol. 12 side road bed and breakfast lawson. PBS 0.

3236
04:39:10,207 --> 04:39:14,207
2 6. 016. The council received staff report PBS 0.

3237
04:39:14,287 --> 04:39:19,167
26. 016 entitled removal of holding symbol 12 side row

3238
04:39:19,327 --> 04:39:22,287
bed and breakfast. Lawson. Nick Council and act a biology.

3239
04:39:22,207 --> 04:39:25,887
Remove the holding H34 symbol in its entirety from these

3240
04:39:26,367 --> 04:39:30,847
lands municipally known as 609 375 12 side road and

3241
04:39:30,847 --> 04:39:37,167
legally described was concession four SEPT lot 13 RP 16R

3242
04:39:37,727 --> 04:39:42,927
255 parts four and five RP 16R 3058 part two.

3243
04:39:44,030 --> 04:39:46,270
I'll move that madam chair. Thank you. We mover in

3244
04:39:46,430 --> 04:39:51,710
Kelsey and we'll have a second in the deputy mayor.

3245
04:39:51,630 --> 04:39:56,403
Any further comments. Seeing none shall we call the boat.

3246
04:39:56,323 --> 04:39:58,907
Thank you. Thank you Madam Chair. The vote is open.

3247
04:40:11,746 --> 04:40:15,249
Chair. Madam Chair, can I assist you on voting. Oh.

3248
04:40:17,871 --> 04:40:21,941
Did you get it? Oh, no. Okay. Deformative. Thank you.

3249
04:40:22,999 --> 04:40:27,635
Vote is closed. Motion is carried. Six nothing with Mayor

3250
04:40:27,715 --> 04:40:30,595
absent today. Thank you. Moving on to the last item

3251
04:40:31,475 --> 04:40:37,227
under planning. B. 9. 3 information report. Community design guidelines

3252
04:40:37,627 --> 04:40:42,137
PBS 0. 2 6. 003. I suspect Mr. Postma is

3253
04:40:42,137 --> 04:40:44,137
the one that's going to carry this photo. Oh no,

3254
04:40:44,057 --> 04:40:51,557
that's right. Go ahead. The Ms. Marwaha. Yes. Good afternoon.

3255
04:40:51,477 --> 04:40:55,157
Um, Council Members. So this is a brief information report

3256
04:40:55,237 --> 04:40:59,237
to provide an update on the community design guidelines. Um,

3257
04:40:59,477 --> 04:41:03,903
this project will update the existing guidelines. To give them

3258
04:41:04,063 --> 04:41:06,623
a refreshed look and bring it in alignment with the

3259
04:41:06,943 --> 04:41:11,743
town's policy updates. So this project was initiated in 2023.

3260
04:41:11,663 --> 04:41:14,943
Um, the towns official plan review was still underway at

3261
04:41:14,943 --> 04:41:17,743
that time. And now the official plan has been adopted

3262
04:41:18,063 --> 04:41:20,303
and those policies are confirmed. So we are able to

3263
04:41:20,703 --> 04:41:25,423
proceed with updating the community design guidelines. So, um, plan

3264
04:41:25,503 --> 04:41:29,423
is that we expect to have draft guidelines ready by

3265
04:41:29,663 --> 04:41:33,423
spring 2026 followed by a public engagement. And the final

3266
04:41:33,663 --> 04:41:37,663
guidelines and checklists are planned for summer 2026 and council

3267
04:41:37,743 --> 04:41:41,983
adoption anticipated in fall 2026. So that's, um, that's the

3268
04:41:42,143 --> 04:41:45,864
overview. And I'd be happy to answer any questions. Thank

3269
04:41:45,864 --> 04:41:52,567
you very much. Um, any questions. Councillor Maxwell. Thank you,

3270
04:41:52,487 --> 04:41:57,687
Madam Chair. Thank you, Tisha, for the report. Um, so

3271
04:41:58,007 --> 04:42:07,820
these community guidelines. Are they tied to. The potential

3272
04:42:08,220 --> 04:42:16,403
use of secondary plans. Go ahead. Yeah. Through you, Madam

3273
04:42:16,403 --> 04:42:21,363
Chair, to Councillor Maxwell. So the community design guidelines, um,

3274
04:42:21,843 --> 04:42:25,443
build upon official plan and they express their vision and

3275
04:42:25,843 --> 04:42:31,785
intent of the official plan. And secondary plans, they are

3276
04:42:31,865 --> 04:42:34,265
the second step of the official plan, but community design

3277
04:42:34,345 --> 04:42:44,180
guidelines basically, they reflect official plans vision. Follow

3278
04:42:44,340 --> 04:42:52,793
up. Yeah, I do. Yeah. Okay. So. Okay. So this,

3279
04:42:52,873 --> 04:42:57,753
the secondary plans have no influence on these on the

3280
04:42:57,753 --> 04:43:02,740
community design guidelines. I just want to see if my

3281
04:43:02,820 --> 04:43:05,860
AI program was actually truthful to me or not because

3282
04:43:05,940 --> 04:43:08,675
they said it was. So okay. I can rule that

3283
04:43:08,835 --> 04:43:17,767
out then. Thank you. Thank you. Cancer Porter. Yes. Thank

3284
04:43:17,847 --> 04:43:23,847
you. And, um, through the chair, the most certainly, um,

3285
04:43:24,167 --> 04:43:27,447
this is something the community has been looking for, Ritu.

3286
04:43:27,367 --> 04:43:31,230
It's been asked for, um, quite some time. I guess

3287
04:43:31,710 --> 04:43:35,390
what I, I would ask is, um, I get a

3288
04:43:35,310 --> 04:43:38,670
bit nervous when it just sort of like, I hear

3289
04:43:38,750 --> 04:43:42,590
words like a refresh or update. I mean, we are

3290
04:43:43,390 --> 04:43:49,896
14 years. Down the road. And repeatedly, as long as

3291
04:43:49,976 --> 04:43:54,536
I know people have talked about character, charm, et cetera.

3292
04:43:55,459 --> 04:43:58,589
Small town feel. It comes out in the strategic plan

3293
04:43:58,989 --> 04:44:01,629
yet again. Came out in the official plan. I don't

3294
04:44:01,789 --> 04:44:05,774
know what plant. It doesn't come out in. And I

3295
04:44:05,774 --> 04:44:10,931
guess. STL, I have some confidence in. However, I would

3296
04:44:11,331 --> 04:44:15,343
really appreciate it. If this could be taken into consideration.

3297
04:44:15,263 --> 04:44:20,635
Sogging shores has some really good community designs. And they're

3298
04:44:20,635 --> 04:44:22,715
a bit of a mixed bag of a town. Cause

3299
04:44:22,955 --> 04:44:27,115
sogging chores is poor Elgin and, um, Southampton put together.

3300
04:44:27,435 --> 04:44:32,078
Southampton is more Thormbery like Port Elgin. Well, it's just

3301
04:44:32,078 --> 04:44:34,398
my opinion. I don't think it suffered from excessive planning

3302
04:44:34,798 --> 04:44:37,678
because it's got big bulk stores and accumulation of here,

3303
04:44:37,678 --> 04:44:40,318
there and everywhere, which I have seen evolve over the

3304
04:44:40,398 --> 04:44:46,899
last 24 years. But they're very, very different. So therefore

3305
04:44:47,619 --> 04:44:52,099
they actually have some more specific. And we have seen

3306
04:44:52,259 --> 04:44:55,859
some interesting developments. No one's fond of the one across

3307
04:44:55,939 --> 04:45:00,108
from the peaks. And we've had some other interesting ones.

3308
04:45:00,647 --> 04:45:05,927
Um, interesting home designs, et cetera, which people haven't been,

3309
04:45:05,847 --> 04:45:08,967
they really sort of don't keep in the ambiance of

3310
04:45:08,967 --> 04:45:13,367
the town. Um, I'm not saying it's, and this got

3311
04:45:13,447 --> 04:45:18,647
talked about when the apartment building on the corner of

3312
04:45:18,967 --> 04:45:23,555
Clark and Marsh. Was brought forward. About in keeping with

3313
04:45:24,275 --> 04:45:27,475
the ambiance of Marsh Street, which is Artsburg is very

3314
04:45:27,555 --> 04:45:31,876
special. So I'm just really asking, um, I would like

3315
04:45:32,036 --> 04:45:35,876
the opportunity. I will send you what Sogging Shores has.

3316
04:45:35,796 --> 04:45:38,276
But really just to be mindful that we have something

3317
04:45:38,436 --> 04:45:42,516
very special here. And the idea of keeping the character

3318
04:45:42,996 --> 04:45:47,236
and the charm is. Because a lot of, a lot

3319
04:45:47,156 --> 04:45:49,636
of places people come into when they drive by and

3320
04:45:49,716 --> 04:45:54,166
they don't want to stop walk around. And I'm seeing

3321
04:45:54,566 --> 04:45:57,846
Thornberry has that and other aspects do. Because the community

3322
04:45:58,166 --> 04:46:01,126
design guidelines, if you think about, we have the strategic

3323
04:46:01,206 --> 04:46:05,300
plan. We now have a tourist destination strategy. And if

3324
04:46:05,300 --> 04:46:09,140
we begin to erode about a way at the charm

3325
04:46:09,780 --> 04:46:12,660
in the small town field, et cetera, while just my

3326
04:46:12,660 --> 04:46:15,901
opinion, I feel that's a contradiction. To trying to encourage

3327
04:46:16,461 --> 04:46:19,261
and enhance tourism, the tourist experience, which is why people

3328
04:46:19,581 --> 04:46:22,922
come. And equally has an impact on the economy. So

3329
04:46:23,162 --> 04:46:25,882
I would just ask that the broader perspective of the

3330
04:46:26,362 --> 04:46:29,802
town be viewed with respect to the community guidelines. Cause

3331
04:46:29,802 --> 04:46:32,442
we're in a very different place than we were when

3332
04:46:32,602 --> 04:46:41,818
they were produced in 2012. Thank you. Comments. Okay. Thank

3333
04:46:41,818 --> 04:46:45,165
you. Um, I don't see any other hints. So I'd

3334
04:46:45,165 --> 04:46:49,135
like to, uh, have a go. This. First of all,

3335
04:46:49,215 --> 04:46:54,015
it is a long time coming as, uh, counselor Porter

3336
04:46:54,095 --> 04:46:56,575
has identified. We've been waiting for this for a long

3337
04:46:56,575 --> 04:46:58,655
time with the official plan. So I'd like to know

3338
04:46:58,975 --> 04:47:02,255
the impact is at this point. Because right now the

3339
04:47:02,335 --> 04:47:06,735
official plan is sitting at county waiting for approval. And

3340
04:47:07,455 --> 04:47:13,350
where does the community design guidelines sit. County approve over

3341
04:47:13,430 --> 04:47:16,870
the next year, which one would hope. And when would

3342
04:47:17,030 --> 04:47:19,270
they adopt the community design guidelines.

3343
04:47:26,997 --> 04:47:29,237
Um, Community Design guidelines. They do not need to be

3344
04:47:29,317 --> 04:47:33,730
adopted by counties. So it's just the municipality. So when

3345
04:47:33,970 --> 04:47:38,048
they'll be finalized, they'll be ready. As an implementation tool.

3346
04:47:40,704 --> 04:47:42,544
But in the meantime, a developer could come along and

3347
04:47:42,704 --> 04:47:47,291
use the 2012 community design guidelines. Which should displawning department

3348
04:47:47,371 --> 04:47:51,116
have a plan for that. I mean, I don't know

3349
04:47:51,196 --> 04:47:53,596
how many developments we've got on the books right now,

3350
04:47:53,516 --> 04:47:58,898
but, um. Go ahead. Yeah. So we're currently still operate

3351
04:47:58,978 --> 04:48:01,938
under the 2016 official plan, uh, in the policy direction

3352
04:48:02,178 --> 04:48:04,578
that's there. Uh, and one of the primary reasons why

3353
04:48:04,738 --> 04:48:07,378
we, we kind of put the community design guidelines project

3354
04:48:07,778 --> 04:48:09,618
on hold was we were still waiting for what the

3355
04:48:09,858 --> 04:48:11,858
outcomes were going to be with the new official plan

3356
04:48:12,018 --> 04:48:16,178
policy direction. So things like building height, uh, and, um,

3357
04:48:16,738 --> 04:48:20,258
uh, density were the two biggest components that really influenced

3358
04:48:20,658 --> 04:48:22,978
community design and how do we actually develop the sites

3359
04:48:22,978 --> 04:48:26,591
that, uh, that are available for future development. Um, we've

3360
04:48:26,591 --> 04:48:29,551
got that direction now, uh, from council through the adopted

3361
04:48:29,631 --> 04:48:32,431
plan. And yes, we're working with the county to get

3362
04:48:32,431 --> 04:48:35,791
that, uh, approved. Um, hopefully less than a year. We're

3363
04:48:35,871 --> 04:48:37,391
looking to try to get that done over the next

3364
04:48:37,951 --> 04:48:41,231
few months. Um, still a few hurdles to go through,

3365
04:48:41,151 --> 04:48:46,256
but, uh, yeah, it's still a priority. But then in

3366
04:48:46,256 --> 04:48:49,856
terms of the community design guidelines, we felt it was

3367
04:48:49,936 --> 04:48:53,776
now appropriate to restart this, this program again. Um, and

3368
04:48:53,936 --> 04:48:57,136
we will continue to apply the 2012 guidelines. Um, they

3369
04:48:57,296 --> 04:49:00,656
are still good. Um, they don't reflect the changes and

3370
04:49:00,576 --> 04:49:04,016
the policy changes that have come into, uh, effect with

3371
04:49:04,096 --> 04:49:07,296
the adopted official plan. Um, but they do still give

3372
04:49:07,616 --> 04:49:10,736
strong consideration in terms of house sites should be designed.

3373
04:49:10,656 --> 04:49:12,896
Uh, we've picked up on, you know, the comments from

3374
04:49:13,376 --> 04:49:15,376
Councillor Porter in terms of wanting to make sure we

3375
04:49:15,536 --> 04:49:19,536
recognize that small town feel, you know, there are a

3376
04:49:19,456 --> 04:49:21,056
lot of good notes that we've taken down here in

3377
04:49:21,056 --> 04:49:23,856
terms of, um, the perspective that, that should be applied

3378
04:49:24,016 --> 04:49:26,816
to these community design guidelines. And those are already being

3379
04:49:26,976 --> 04:49:30,257
built in. So in the meantime, we continue to work

3380
04:49:30,337 --> 04:49:33,137
with developers in terms of designing their sites to something

3381
04:49:33,217 --> 04:49:35,297
that's going to fit with the character and the style

3382
04:49:36,257 --> 04:49:40,017
and the, uh, brand, uh, Thornberry or Clarksburg or wherever

3383
04:49:40,017 --> 04:49:43,537
the development is to occur. Um, but really it's this

3384
04:49:43,697 --> 04:49:46,337
next step to get the community design guidelines in place.

3385
04:49:46,257 --> 04:49:47,937
So we have a nice firm document that we can

3386
04:49:48,017 --> 04:49:51,057
share early in development processes to say, okay, this is

3387
04:49:51,057 --> 04:49:54,977
what the expectations are when developing a site and bringing

3388
04:49:55,217 --> 04:49:59,529
planning applications forward. You're pardoned me. I've been waiting for

3389
04:49:59,689 --> 04:50:04,657
this for a long time. So I'm, um. Certainly welcome

3390
04:50:05,057 --> 04:50:07,777
the community design guidelines when they finally decide to appear

3391
04:50:08,977 --> 04:50:12,337
because it has been throughout the, uh, the plan. So,

3392
04:50:12,257 --> 04:50:14,977
um, maybe we'll just put this on the agenda when

3393
04:50:14,977 --> 04:50:18,412
we, when we meet the planning department. So I am

3394
04:50:18,492 --> 04:50:22,652
disappointed. But one last point. Hopefully there's no additional budget.

3395
04:50:22,896 --> 04:50:26,032
Because the design guidelines are so late. Is that still

3396
04:50:26,112 --> 04:50:29,472
part of the 400, 000 dollars that we put toward

3397
04:50:29,472 --> 04:50:33,641
the official plan? We'd watch it. Yeah. It's still part

3398
04:50:33,641 --> 04:50:36,121
of the approved budget. I'm not sure of the number,

3399
04:50:36,041 --> 04:50:39,001
but whatever the budget was approved, it is still within

3400
04:50:39,001 --> 04:50:42,912
that. All right. Thank you. Well, I certainly look forward

3401
04:50:43,072 --> 04:50:49,964
to the community design guidelines. Thank you. Any physical? Yes.

3402
04:50:50,044 --> 04:50:52,764
Councillor Maxwell Oldham knew him. Yeah, I just have one

3403
04:50:52,924 --> 04:50:57,004
quick question. So you mentioned something about Gray County approving

3404
04:50:57,084 --> 04:51:01,325
the official plan. What happens if they don't approve it?

3405
04:51:01,565 --> 04:51:07,267
Has that ever happened. Oh, that's a good question. Um,

3406
04:51:07,987 --> 04:51:10,707
so it does need to go to county council for

3407
04:51:10,787 --> 04:51:14,627
a decision. Uh, so if it's county council generally could

3408
04:51:14,787 --> 04:51:18,627
approve the official plan as it was adopted by council,

3409
04:51:18,547 --> 04:51:22,147
uh, they could approve it with modifications, uh, so they

3410
04:51:22,147 --> 04:51:25,427
can require the municipality to make changes to their official

3411
04:51:25,587 --> 04:51:29,667
plan. Um, generally things that may be in conformity with

3412
04:51:29,907 --> 04:51:33,027
the county plan or with provincial direction, um, they can,

3413
04:51:33,027 --> 04:51:36,867
they can make those changes themselves and approve that version.

3414
04:51:36,787 --> 04:51:39,107
Or they could refuse it and essentially, you know, send

3415
04:51:39,107 --> 04:51:42,307
the whole project back to the municipality for, uh, for

3416
04:51:42,467 --> 04:51:49,009
further review. But not likely. But anyway, yeah, go ahead,

3417
04:51:48,929 --> 04:51:54,921
Councillor Maxwell. Okay. So let's say that ideally that doesn't

3418
04:51:55,081 --> 04:52:00,521
happen. But if it did, would that influence the community

3419
04:52:00,921 --> 04:52:08,518
improvement or the community plan. Go. Ahead. Yeah. Uh, well,

3420
04:52:08,438 --> 04:52:10,518
I should note. I mean, the town staff are working

3421
04:52:10,918 --> 04:52:14,278
diligently and alongside county staff to ensure that, you know,

3422
04:52:14,678 --> 04:52:16,678
any changes that may be proposed to the plan or

3423
04:52:16,758 --> 04:52:20,886
any, uh. Changes that may be considered. Our being reviewed

3424
04:52:20,966 --> 04:52:23,926
with municipal staff, uh, we have made the commitment as

3425
04:52:23,926 --> 04:52:26,486
well that if there are substantial changes to that plan,

3426
04:52:26,406 --> 04:52:28,726
we would bring them back to this council, uh, for

3427
04:52:28,726 --> 04:52:33,606
information, whether it's, you know, an approval decision or a

3428
04:52:33,606 --> 04:52:36,406
set of modifications that are being considered, uh, so those

3429
04:52:36,646 --> 04:52:39,846
would come back before the county would issue their decision.

3430
04:52:39,766 --> 04:52:42,006
Um, with regards to the impact on the timeline for

3431
04:52:42,006 --> 04:52:45,766
the community design guidelines, um, county staff don't have any

3432
04:52:46,006 --> 04:52:48,886
concerns or objections in terms of those major components. The

3433
04:52:48,886 --> 04:52:51,526
building height and the density components that really influence those

3434
04:52:51,766 --> 04:52:54,646
community design guidelines. So we're confident that those pieces are

3435
04:52:54,806 --> 04:52:57,846
set. And from there, we can develop the guidelines based

3436
04:52:57,766 --> 04:53:03,046
on those, that policy direction. So, um, these design guidelines

3437
04:53:03,126 --> 04:53:06,886
can still move forward. Uh, ideally to be approved, you

3438
04:53:06,806 --> 04:53:09,606
know, soon after that the official plan is received its

3439
04:53:09,766 --> 04:53:12,326
final approval. Uh, but they can definitely go concurrent together.

3440
04:53:15,295 --> 04:53:20,694
Okay. Uh, all right. Councillor Dell. Go ahead. Uh, yes.

3441
04:53:20,694 --> 04:53:25,014
Thank you. Um, Madam Chair. And just to answer counsel

3442
04:53:25,334 --> 04:53:29,334
Maxwell, uh, yes, great county and another municipality during my

3443
04:53:29,654 --> 04:53:33,494
time there, uh, from 2014 to 2018 did not approve.

3444
04:53:33,894 --> 04:53:38,534
A municipality's official plan, uh, there was lots of discussion.

3445
04:53:38,454 --> 04:53:42,214
Um, but it wasn't regarding the community improvement plan, but

3446
04:53:42,454 --> 04:53:47,014
it has happened. Um, regarding an official plan, but I

3447
04:53:47,094 --> 04:53:51,014
just, other than that, when I dated back to 203

3448
04:53:51,494 --> 04:53:55,734
to 206, all official plants have been approved and never

3449
04:53:55,734 --> 04:53:57,814
been rejected by Grey County. So I just want to

3450
04:53:58,294 --> 04:54:02,214
add that point in there. Um, and, um, you know,

3451
04:54:02,454 --> 04:54:05,734
great county has a good report still with us. And,

3452
04:54:05,814 --> 04:54:08,454
and I remember in 2016, uh, there was a lot

3453
04:54:08,534 --> 04:54:12,214
of, um, it was slow trying to get our official

3454
04:54:12,374 --> 04:54:15,814
plan to prove because there was, uh, the dialogue with

3455
04:54:15,814 --> 04:54:19,254
the public and having to get back from the public,

3456
04:54:19,174 --> 04:54:22,214
all the dialogue and answer questions. So, um, I think

3457
04:54:22,454 --> 04:54:26,694
they are definitely trying to work with, um, all municipalities,

3458
04:54:26,614 --> 04:54:30,854
but that just answered, uh, Councillor Maxwell's, uh, they didn't,

3459
04:54:30,774 --> 04:54:34,294
um, it wasn't approved by Grey County at the time

3460
04:54:34,614 --> 04:54:37,094
and eventually had to be approved by the province overriding

3461
04:54:37,254 --> 04:54:41,894
the great county. So, um, that's just a side note.

3462
04:54:41,894 --> 04:54:47,185
Thank you. Thank you, Deputy Mayor. Go ahead. Thank you,

3463
04:54:47,105 --> 04:54:51,345
Madam Chair very quickly through you with what Mr. Paulsterman,

3464
04:54:51,265 --> 04:54:54,385
Councillor Adele said, great county is, you know, they'll look

3465
04:54:54,385 --> 04:54:57,265
at if it falls within their, within their planning has

3466
04:54:57,265 --> 04:54:59,425
to mirror up together because the bylaw is stocked together

3467
04:54:59,745 --> 04:55:02,385
or the planning documents that stacked together plan of Southerners

3468
04:55:02,465 --> 04:55:04,225
and things like that. Or if it follows the PPS

3469
04:55:04,625 --> 04:55:07,825
provincial policy statement. So those are more administrative in nature

3470
04:55:07,985 --> 04:55:10,225
than they would be, um, you know, the one I

3471
04:55:10,225 --> 04:55:12,385
know the research to want to an example. Our counselor

3472
04:55:12,465 --> 04:55:15,345
Adele said when she was at county council, but predominantly

3473
04:55:15,745 --> 04:55:18,145
it's keeping in line with the provincial policy statements and

3474
04:55:18,145 --> 04:55:21,185
the Greg Pandemic planning objectives. It's usually just a tweak

3475
04:55:21,905 --> 04:55:24,945
and it's, um, administrators for nature more than likely because

3476
04:55:25,025 --> 04:55:27,025
they know the work that's done at the lower tier

3477
04:55:27,025 --> 04:55:29,185
will affect the lower tier. And then the, that's where

3478
04:55:29,345 --> 04:55:32,225
the member municipalities who sit at the Great County Council,

3479
04:55:32,145 --> 04:55:35,745
that horseshoe will make those decisions. But it's usually within,

3480
04:55:35,745 --> 04:55:38,145
within the parameters of, um, as long as it mirrors

3481
04:55:38,225 --> 04:55:40,705
up with the provincial policyment and the, and the county

3482
04:55:40,785 --> 04:55:44,955
documents as well. So thank you. Thank you very much.

3483
04:55:44,955 --> 04:55:48,075
I think the matter has been fully discussed at this

3484
04:55:48,075 --> 04:55:50,395
point. I don't see any other hands. Could I, uh,

3485
04:55:51,115 --> 04:55:54,475
Madam Klerkowski to put the motion up. And it is

3486
04:55:54,635 --> 04:55:58,635
that council receives staff report PBS 0. 26. 003 entitled

3487
04:55:58,715 --> 04:56:02,315
Information Report Community Design Guidelines. Could ask for a mover

3488
04:56:02,395 --> 04:56:05,915
in this. I'll second it. Dog moved. I think Councillor

3489
04:56:05,995 --> 04:56:08,715
Maxwell then Councillor McKinley is what I heard. Sorry Councillor

3490
04:56:09,035 --> 04:56:14,547
Dell. Is there any further discussion. If not, let's call

3491
04:56:14,787 --> 04:56:16,867
the vote, please. Thank you. The vote is open.

3492
04:56:32,037 --> 04:56:35,718
The vote is closed. Thank you, Madam Clerk. That motion

3493
04:56:35,878 --> 04:56:38,518
has carried 6 - 0 with the mayor absent today.

3494
04:56:38,998 --> 04:56:42,118
And that completes the section on planning and building services

3495
04:56:42,358 --> 04:56:46,918
with the exception of the public comment. Item B 10.

3496
04:56:46,838 --> 04:56:49,398
Now, Madam Clerk, there is no one in the building.

3497
04:56:49,318 --> 04:56:51,238
And I have no comments to read. Oh, thank you.

3498
04:56:51,318 --> 04:56:54,518
So that finishes my section. Did he mirror? Do you

3499
04:56:54,518 --> 04:56:56,215
want me to continue. Or did you want to go?

3500
04:56:56,535 --> 04:56:58,455
Yes, Great. Please pull it off and meeting. Thank you.

3501
04:56:58,695 --> 04:57:02,455
Okay. So going to item C, new and unfinished business,

3502
04:57:02,375 --> 04:57:05,735
uh, we don't have any committees of council reports. We,

3503
04:57:05,655 --> 04:57:08,135
oh, notice of motion. Is there, are there any notice

3504
04:57:08,215 --> 04:57:12,813
emotions to be offered. At this point. Seeing none, I'll

3505
04:57:12,813 --> 04:57:15,213
move forward. Uh, C3, there were no additions to the

3506
04:57:15,373 --> 04:57:19,257
agenda. D is notice of meeting dates. So we have

3507
04:57:19,337 --> 04:57:22,617
a council public meeting on February the 10th. Then on

3508
04:57:22,937 --> 04:57:26,777
council meeting February 17th, then committee of the whole meeting,

3509
04:57:26,697 --> 04:57:30,457
uh, admin corporate and financial services strategic initiatives and committee

3510
04:57:30,537 --> 04:57:35,417
services on February 23rd. Town Hall Council Chambers and Virtual.

3511
04:57:35,417 --> 04:57:37,737
Another committee of the whole meeting operations and planning and

3512
04:57:37,817 --> 04:57:42,537
building services February 24th, 2026 town hall council chambers and

3513
04:57:42,537 --> 04:57:45,497
virtual. And that takes us to the last item adjournment.

3514
04:57:45,417 --> 04:57:47,257
And if we could please have the motion put forward

3515
04:57:47,497 --> 04:57:50,697
on the screen and the motion is that this committee,

3516
04:57:50,617 --> 04:57:55,795
the hole does now adjourn it 225. P. m. to

3517
04:57:55,795 --> 04:57:59,955
meet again on February 24th, 2026 town hall, council chambers

3518
04:58:00,115 --> 04:58:02,755
and virtually or at the call of the chair. Moved.

3519
04:58:02,755 --> 04:58:05,475
Thank you. But moved by Councillor Porter and Second Admi.

3520
04:58:07,465 --> 04:58:10,787
Second by Council from Kinley. Thank you very much. I

3521
04:58:10,787 --> 04:58:14,550
don't see any objections. So let's call the vote. Thank

3522
04:58:14,550 --> 04:58:15,910
you Madam Chair. The vote is open.

3523
04:58:28,064 --> 04:58:30,784
What is closed? Thank you. The motion is carried six

3524
04:58:30,944 --> 04:58:35,344
nothing with the mayor absent today. Please turn off your

3525
04:58:35,344 --> 04:58:39,044
cameras and we'll see you again. Soon. Thank you.