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That helped. What I'd like to hear about it is.

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The criteria. Is just some ranger walks trail. Recording in

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progress. For being too muddy. Temperature. And relative humidity and

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precipitation. I know snow on the trail. They'll keep them

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open. That's why I included temperature. Because a lot of

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times they'll leave them open. And there are people. Who

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are terrible about. Walking on the trail when it's muddy.

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You will leave the trail, and then it leads to

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marital discord. That's the whole reason. Marital discord. I am

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a believer in. Tony, we're ready whenever you are. Thank

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you. And he's. Shoes clean. Oh, that causes. Discord. Marital

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discord. Welcome to Parks and open Space Advisory Committee. March

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27, 2025. We have. A few presenters tonight. We're excited

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for that. Let's start with a call to order. And

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a roll call. It's kind of confusing, but. Drew Adams?

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Not here. Trace Baker? Present. Carol Byerly? Present. Janet George.

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Present. Christine Johnson. Here. Tony Lewis? I'm here. Dirk Turner

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here. Great. Get close to those mics. That's the note

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of the day. So we're going to start with a

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approval of last month's minute. Have you all reviewed the

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minutes. Any changes? Any discussion? Christine. Christine Johnson. Posack. There's

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a couple of typos. I'm not going to point them

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out. And I wanted to note that I think that

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there has been a change in how the public comments

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were annotated, and I liked it. And I found it

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helpful, so thank you. Great. Other comments? Are there any

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changes? Okay. Do we have a motion to approve the

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minutes? Trace Baker, Prosec. I move that we approve the

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February meeting minutes. A second. Christine Johnson. All second create.

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All in favor? Aye. Opposed. Great. Minutes are approved. We

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have two presentations tonight. Oil and gas in Boulder County.

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And elk management. So we're excited to start with oil

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and gas in Boulder County. Michael. Welcome. Hi. Good evening,

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Posak. My name is Michael Sylvester. I am the oil

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and gas regulatory. Specialist with parks and open space. I

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believe we have two presenters joining us. And are they

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already here? I have no idea. Let's see. We have.

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Is it Kate Burke and Horace Crane? Yes. I don't

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see a horse. Okay. Kate, can you hear me? I

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sure can. Can you hear me? Yes. Okay. And then.

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Michael, you're doing the slides. Yes, I am. I can't

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see them. So I'm just going to have to. Assume

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what you're seeing. My name is Kate Burke. I'm with

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the county attorney's. Office. And I focus on oil and

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gas. There we go. And have done for some years.

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And, yeah, we'll get started. We're hoping to have. Another.

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Oh, there he is. We also, Rusty Crane is going

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to join us from public health and you'll be hearing

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from him. A little bit down the road here. Great.

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I wanted to start by pointing out that. So I've

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been focusing on oil and gas since 2016. And our

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efforts to protect the lands and people from adverse effects

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of oil and gas drilling are really very multidisciplinary. Parks,

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of course, plays a key role, but as does the

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community planning and permitting department, and both being assisted by

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the county attorney's office and also by public health. Staff

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from other departments will also join us at times to

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work on some of the projects. And some staff members,

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like Michael, actually kind of straddle departments with their work

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and end up doing work for multiple departments at the

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same time, so we'll be talking about some of these

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specific roles of these different folks as we go through

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the presentation. But I just wanted to give you the

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sense that this was quite the countywide effort. Great. Thank

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you, Kate. So, to begin, the DJ basin is a

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large oil and gas basin that touches on five states.

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Reaching as far as South Dakota, with its western edge

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ending right here in Bolton in the middle. Of Boulder

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county. Our corner of the basin is called the Wattenberg

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Field, which is a particularly productive area. Of the DJ

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basin for natural gas. Because of this. Here is a

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production map of where producing wells are, as you can

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see. They are on the eastern side of the county

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with density increasing as you get closer to the county

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line road. Here's a picture where you can see wells

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and horizontal well bores just on the other side of

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county line road. Though we occupy similar parts of the

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DJ basin, Weld County's policy of being very pro oil

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and gas development has created a pretty different picture. In

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our neighboring county. Carol. By early posac. I really like

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this map, but I want to understand it. So what?

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Are the orange squares? So the individual squares are going

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to be, well, locations, and then the lines are underground,

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horizontal fracking bores. And then the green circles. Are. What?

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I don't see any green circles. Yeah, there's plenty of

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green dots, plenty of, well, county. I can jump in

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on that. I think this map is pulled from the

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state agency. The energy carbon management commission's database. And they

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have different symbols for, for example, where there might be

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permits pending and that kind of thing. From where I'm

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sitting, I actually can't see their green dots, but I

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assume that it's something to that effect. So to elaborate

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a little bit on what Michael was saying, what you

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can see is that in Boulder county. At this point,

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we have no horizontal well bores, which we'll be talking

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about a little bit more later. Exactly what those are

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and how they work. Whereas welk county of course. Is

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rife with them at this point. And the thing I

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wanted to point out was in 2012, we really started

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a major effort to revise our local regulations on oil

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and gas and one of the reasons was this imagery,

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and we saw. This horizontal drilling is a relatively new

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technology. In the greater Wattenberg area. And we saw this

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happening in Wells county and knew that this was something

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we needed to be concerned about. To the extent that

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the greater Wattenberg does reach into Boulder counties. You see

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in the kind of the yellow blob. And another question.

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Carol Byerly Posec. Is this horizontal wellboards. Is that fracking?

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Yes. Okay, that's fracking. So that's what we're calling it.

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Okay. Thank you. I have a question. Christine Johnson Posak,

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what is the yellow? Kind of lobby outline. That's the

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greater Wattenberg field. That's the field we're in, which is

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a section of the Denver Yolsberg Basin, so. What we're

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to notice from this image is. The horizontal wells and

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then just the greater density of the symbols in general.

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Yes. Right. Yeah. Just across the boundary of the county.

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Trace Baker Posac. Excuse me. So mostly. What I can

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see in Boulder county, which is not cluttered by the

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horizontal lines. There seem to be wells with very short

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radial lines. And I was wondering what's being represented there.

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I can speak to that, Michael. Those are the traditional

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or sort of older technology was just plain vertical wells

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where they would drill. Vertically, straight down. And then there

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was an intermediate technology briefly used called directional drilling, where

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they would drill diagonally from the surface. To a spot.

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It was still a straight well bore without any bends

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in it, but it would go diagonal rather than straight

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down. And then the newer technology is this horizontal drilling

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where there's actually a bend, and we'll show you an

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image of that later. But they drill vertically, straight down,

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and then they. Actually turn as much as 90 degrees

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and go horizontally. Thank you. In our area. Since probably

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2010 ish is when it really got going. Okay, thanks.

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Yes, thank you for the questions. We also will have

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some time at the end as well set aside for

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additional questions. Great. Thanks, Michael. So here are some pictures

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of typical wells in Boulder County. You can see. An

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individual well is typically. Takes up a pretty small surface

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area. These wells, however, are connected to facilities on the

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left. You can see a full facility. In Boulder county

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and what a typical facility would look like this one.

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Has. The full cater of equipment you would normally see.

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At a facility, and one facility may have a single

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well, or it may have four or five. Wells all

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connected through underground flow lines. And on the right here,

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you can see a double tank. Depending on how productive

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the facility is or how productive it might have been

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at one point, it could have multiple tanks. So currently,

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we have 161 wells in Boulder county, the vast majority

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of which are on county open. Space. 68% of these

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are shut in wells or temporarily abandoned, meaning that they

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are not currently producing. Anything, but rather. The operator pays

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a fee to keep the leases alive. This is pictures

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of plugging and abandonment. Plugging an abandonment. Is the process

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by which a well is retired. It requires a workover

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rig which you can see here. This can be pretty

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visually dramatic. And involves redrilling down the well to an

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extent and then pouring concrete into the bore. They drilled

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to create the plug. Due to the size of the

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rig, this plugging and abandoned mint work can often be

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confused. By the public, with new wells being drilled. Here

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is a map of the plugging and abandonment work that.

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Has occurred over the last several years, as you can

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see. It is, of course, oriented towards the eastern side

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of the county, where most of the oil and gas

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activity is. Sorry, Michael. Yeah, I want to go back

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to the plugging for just a second. So when I

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started in 2012, I want to say close to 300

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active wells. We have not had a well drilled in

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the county since. What did we decide it was about?

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2011, I think. Yeah. 2012, 2012. But we've had many,

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many plugged and abandoned, so. Our. Well, inventory is reducing

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year by year, and just since I've been here, it's.

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Gone down by a good 60, 70 plus. Well. So

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from the perspective of. Releasing open space lands to be

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open space lands. That is definitely a good thing. Okay,

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so we can go on to the next slide. Kate.

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Tony Lewis with a question. Do we have orphaned wells?

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In the county, and if so, how many? We have

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three orphan wells. And what that means for those who

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may not know, these are wells. Where the operator. Has

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abandoned them or has gone bankrupt or left the state,

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basically. And so they're now under the control of the

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state. And we have three. I think they're clustered together.

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Is that right, Rusty? They're all pretty close. And so.

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Because they're under the state's control. We no longer have

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jurisdiction over them. I think Rusty does. Take a look

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at them, but technically. Speaking. They're the state's problem now.

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Great. Anything to address? I guess we're good. Okay, Michael.

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And Rusty is our oil and gas inspector. He's kind

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of our guy in the field. And so you'll be

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hearing more from him here shortly, and he probably can

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answer a lot of questions. So a question you may

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have, many people may have is why are there wells

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on open space? At all. And there's basically two legal

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factors at play. One is what we called a split

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estate. Which simply means that different people can own the

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surface lands and the minerals below. And, in fact, it's

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more common than not that they are owned by different

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people at this point. So mineral rights can be sold

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separately. They can also be leased out so there can

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be the owner. But then if they're leased to an

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operator, then the operator actually has control of them. It's

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like leasing any real property if you might own the

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house, but if it's. Rented to someone, they have the

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possession of it. And then the second element is. That.

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When we buy land, we try to purchase the mineral

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rights whenever we can. If they're available. To try to

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gain or maintain some control over development to the extent

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that we can. But as you might know from buying

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real estate, and as depicted in this snippet of a

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typical deed on the left there when we buy land

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and minerals. It comes to us, subject to certain limitations

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and exceptions, and then you go to the exhibit b.

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Which is a snippet of some typical exceptions. And the.

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I think it's. The second one is oil and gas

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leases so oftentimes we will buy the land and the

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minerals and we become the mineral owner. But the minerals.

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00:15:32,059 --> 00:15:34,539
Are already leased out to someone. So again, it's like

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buying a house. Where there's an existing tenant who has

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a long term lease. So you are the owner? But

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there's someone with possession of it, and so this is.

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How we inherited. Oil and gas on land that are

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really meant to be conserved and not developed. Mike Lee

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can go on to the next slide. So then this,

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of course. Oh, actually, I did want to say most

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of the leases we do. See were signed in the

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before. These have been there for a very long time.

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And as we said the wells themselves have been there

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for a very long time. Oil and gas leases generally

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stay alive as long as oil and gas is produced,

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and this is a very complicated issue. In fact, we've

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been in litigation and gone to the state supreme court

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around. What does it mean to produce oil and gas.

235
00:16:26,361 --> 00:16:28,201
But as long as there's a well out there, and

236
00:16:28,201 --> 00:16:32,323
it is producing. In minimal amounts, the lease will stay

237
00:16:32,323 --> 00:16:35,883
alive. So we have these 40, 60, 80 year old

238
00:16:35,883 --> 00:16:40,351
leases. That remain valid. We spend a lot of time

239
00:16:40,351 --> 00:16:44,949
examining these leases and looking to see. If the operator

240
00:16:44,949 --> 00:16:47,789
is maintaining their obligations, and we have in the past.

241
00:16:49,862 --> 00:16:54,062
Been successful in getting some leases released, particularly on Dougherty,

242
00:16:54,062 --> 00:16:58,222
Swanson and Pace properties. We have got rid of leases

243
00:16:58,222 --> 00:17:02,039
as well as. On portions of the Eddie property and

244
00:17:02,039 --> 00:17:05,919
the Nervik property and a couple of others, so that's

245
00:17:05,919 --> 00:17:09,199
one of our tasks that we do work on. So

246
00:17:09,199 --> 00:17:12,119
then another question that may arise is, could there be

247
00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:17,655
new drilling? And the answer is yes. But the operator

248
00:17:17,655 --> 00:17:22,159
has several important. Hurdles, I guess you could say, to

249
00:17:22,159 --> 00:17:25,818
get over first. They have to have valid mineral rights.

250
00:17:25,818 --> 00:17:29,338
And these leases, they're old and the operators tend to

251
00:17:29,338 --> 00:17:31,458
have lots and lots and lots of them. So we

252
00:17:31,458 --> 00:17:34,538
have found that they don't. Always keep the best records,

253
00:17:34,538 --> 00:17:36,978
and so they might think they have valid mineral rights,

254
00:17:36,978 --> 00:17:39,778
and we might find that they don't or have a

255
00:17:39,778 --> 00:17:42,218
way to challenge it. They also have to have the

256
00:17:42,218 --> 00:17:45,094
valid right to use the surface land. And again, depending

257
00:17:45,094 --> 00:17:48,515
who owns the surface, who owns the minerals. They may

258
00:17:48,515 --> 00:17:51,075
or may not have that, and the owner may or

259
00:17:51,075 --> 00:17:54,910
may not be interested in giving them permission. And then

260
00:17:54,910 --> 00:17:58,691
next the county. We have to give approval for any

261
00:17:58,691 --> 00:18:02,904
new drilling, and this goes through. The community planning and

262
00:18:02,904 --> 00:18:07,464
permitting department as they implement our land use code. And

263
00:18:07,464 --> 00:18:10,064
it's a very robust process. We'll talk about that a

264
00:18:10,064 --> 00:18:11,624
little bit more. So they'd have to get through all

265
00:18:11,624 --> 00:18:14,264
of that and get approval, and then they also have

266
00:18:14,264 --> 00:18:18,267
to get multiple approvals. From the state. Through. They need

267
00:18:18,267 --> 00:18:21,347
oil and gas permits, they need air quality permits, and

268
00:18:21,347 --> 00:18:24,427
they need stormwater permits. So there's a great deal that

269
00:18:24,427 --> 00:18:29,403
has to happen. But theoretically, it is possible that drilling

270
00:18:29,403 --> 00:18:32,083
could happen on open space if all of these things

271
00:18:32,083 --> 00:18:40,356
fell. Into place. Okay. So speaking of our legal authorities

272
00:18:40,356 --> 00:18:44,053
over these things and our ability to push back, We

273
00:18:44,053 --> 00:18:46,853
sit in three different chairs or wear three different hats,

274
00:18:46,853 --> 00:18:52,593
depending which analogy you like better. As the regulator. Local

275
00:18:52,593 --> 00:18:56,113
governments get to regulate the surface impacts of oil and

276
00:18:56,113 --> 00:19:00,675
gas through the land use code. The mineral owner has

277
00:19:00,675 --> 00:19:03,835
certain rights and obligations as the owner, and we are

278
00:19:03,835 --> 00:19:06,515
often in that role. And then the landowner also has

279
00:19:06,515 --> 00:19:10,595
certain rights and obligations. And there's cases in which we're

280
00:19:10,595 --> 00:19:14,076
in all three positions at the same time. Often we're

281
00:19:14,076 --> 00:19:16,636
both the mineral owner and the landowner, and we're always

282
00:19:16,636 --> 00:19:21,069
the regulator. So this makes it interesting. Complicated. And where

283
00:19:21,069 --> 00:19:24,482
we do have all three. Roles. It's a pretty powerful

284
00:19:24,482 --> 00:19:31,590
package. And go ahead, Michael. So on the regulatory role,

285
00:19:31,590 --> 00:19:35,510
this mostly sits with community planning and permitting, and through

286
00:19:35,510 --> 00:19:39,762
the land use code. And Kim Sanchez is the deputy

287
00:19:39,762 --> 00:19:43,202
director of planning at CP and PE, and she is

288
00:19:43,202 --> 00:19:45,922
also our local governmental designee, which is a role through

289
00:19:45,922 --> 00:19:50,042
the state. The energy and carbon management commission designates an

290
00:19:50,042 --> 00:19:55,193
LGD for each local government. Who's kind of the communication

291
00:19:55,193 --> 00:19:57,553
conduit, and they're the person who's going to get contacted

292
00:19:57,553 --> 00:20:00,673
most often, whether it's by the state or by operators.

293
00:20:02,343 --> 00:20:04,983
So Kim plays that role. We have lots of employees

294
00:20:04,983 --> 00:20:07,983
from different departments are also on that same. Email list.

295
00:20:09,488 --> 00:20:13,208
Including Michael, myself and I think Rusty and others. So

296
00:20:13,208 --> 00:20:16,730
if any one person. Is not around when an important

297
00:20:16,730 --> 00:20:18,730
message comes through, there are several of us who will

298
00:20:18,730 --> 00:20:23,238
pick it. Up. And then under the land use code.

299
00:20:23,238 --> 00:20:25,678
I'm not going to read all this list, but. These

300
00:20:25,678 --> 00:20:28,558
are all the things that CPNP has authority over and

301
00:20:28,558 --> 00:20:35,006
has regulations with which to govern. These things. And then

302
00:20:35,006 --> 00:20:39,446
public health supports the enforcement of article twelve, particularly with

303
00:20:39,446 --> 00:20:42,886
air quality and other inspections of existing facilities, which is

304
00:20:42,886 --> 00:20:45,126
rusty, and he'll get to talk to you about that

305
00:20:45,126 --> 00:20:50,394
here shortly. Yeah. So in addition to regulating as the

306
00:20:50,394 --> 00:20:53,834
local jurisdiction, as Kate mentioned, we also have increased oversight.

307
00:20:53,834 --> 00:20:55,954
Over a lot of the oil and gas operations in

308
00:20:55,954 --> 00:20:58,634
Boulder county by virtue of being the landowner. As well.

309
00:21:01,998 --> 00:21:06,078
This is especially relevant with plugging and abandonment operations where

310
00:21:06,078 --> 00:21:09,958
the oil and gas operators required to return the land

311
00:21:09,958 --> 00:21:13,358
to its original state. However, in reality, this ends up

312
00:21:13,358 --> 00:21:17,118
usually being a negotiation between the landowner and the operator

313
00:21:17,118 --> 00:21:22,794
to identify the most important resources. That the landowner cares

314
00:21:22,794 --> 00:21:26,154
for. Fortunately, parks and open space has a team of

315
00:21:26,154 --> 00:21:30,874
specialists, including wildlife biologists and plant ecologists to help shape

316
00:21:30,874 --> 00:21:34,754
these discussions and identify what is most important to Boulder

317
00:21:34,754 --> 00:21:39,745
county. Additionally. Through the community planning and permitting review process

318
00:21:39,745 --> 00:21:44,265
for maintenance of these wells. Our team provides these recommendations

319
00:21:44,265 --> 00:21:47,785
and what to focus on during reclamation and re vegetation,

320
00:21:47,785 --> 00:21:52,103
even for work on private properties as well. So in

321
00:21:52,103 --> 00:21:57,263
2024, the county received a little under 440,000 from oil

322
00:21:57,263 --> 00:22:04,245
and gas royalties. The previous year, we received approximately 570,000,

323
00:22:04,245 --> 00:22:10,085
and the year before that we received 294,000. So you

324
00:22:10,085 --> 00:22:12,165
can see that it varies quite a lot from year

325
00:22:12,165 --> 00:22:15,765
to year. These royalties go to the sales tax fund,

326
00:22:15,765 --> 00:22:19,085
after which an amount is reallocated to the ag resources

327
00:22:19,085 --> 00:22:25,422
budget. Additionally, we charge. A $2,083 registration fee per well

328
00:22:25,422 --> 00:22:30,662
annually, which resulted in about $345,000 last year, which goes

329
00:22:30,662 --> 00:22:33,582
towards inspection equipment and funding the salaries of our oil

330
00:22:33,582 --> 00:22:36,651
and gas team. Now hand it back to Kate.

331
00:22:45,168 --> 00:22:48,768
This is a simplistic graphic to talk about the horizontal

332
00:22:48,768 --> 00:22:51,728
wells that I mentioned before and I did want to

333
00:22:51,728 --> 00:22:54,888
return to one of the commissioner's questions about fracking. So,

334
00:22:54,888 --> 00:22:59,288
technically, speaking. Fracking is just one of the operations that

335
00:22:59,288 --> 00:23:02,688
occurs at a well, and it can occur at any.

336
00:23:02,688 --> 00:23:07,086
Well, it can occur. At a vertical well, or the

337
00:23:07,086 --> 00:23:10,606
diagonal type we talked about, or the horizontal. It's most

338
00:23:10,606 --> 00:23:13,566
common in these horizontal wells. And these horizontal wells are

339
00:23:13,566 --> 00:23:16,846
the most common on the whole front range. Of Colorado

340
00:23:16,846 --> 00:23:19,486
at this point. So if you're talking about oil and

341
00:23:19,486 --> 00:23:27,642
gas development, past about. 2015. It's going to be horizontal

342
00:23:27,642 --> 00:23:32,002
with hydraulic fracturing. So the horizontal well is the one.

343
00:23:32,002 --> 00:23:34,882
On the left. It drills down in our area. They're

344
00:23:34,882 --> 00:23:39,522
drilling down about a mile and. A half eight, 7508,000ft

345
00:23:39,522 --> 00:23:42,962
below the surface, and then they turn the well bore.

346
00:23:42,962 --> 00:23:45,322
I don't think it makes quite a sharp angle like

347
00:23:45,322 --> 00:23:48,781
that, but they turn it until. It's going horizontally. And

348
00:23:48,781 --> 00:23:52,701
they can travel. At this point, they are traveling horizontally

349
00:23:52,701 --> 00:23:56,799
two and 3 miles routinely. And now even longer. And

350
00:23:56,799 --> 00:23:59,999
then once that's drilled, then they do the fracking piece

351
00:23:59,999 --> 00:24:02,079
of it, which is. They bring in separate equipment, and

352
00:24:02,079 --> 00:24:05,079
they put pressurized fluid down there to create these tiny

353
00:24:05,079 --> 00:24:08,672
fractures. In the pipe. And those are what will then

354
00:24:08,672 --> 00:24:11,112
allow the oil and the gas they seep. Under pressure,

355
00:24:11,112 --> 00:24:14,296
seep back into the pipe. And up to the surface.

356
00:24:15,674 --> 00:24:19,434
So that's the fracking piece. The horizontal drilling is just

357
00:24:19,434 --> 00:24:24,582
the creation of this long. Well itself. Yes? Excuse me.

358
00:24:24,582 --> 00:24:32,473
Trace Baker Postac. So with the pressure. Is the pressure

359
00:24:32,473 --> 00:24:37,135
inherent in the geology, or is that something that. Has

360
00:24:37,135 --> 00:24:39,935
to be added by pumping in gas or liquid or

361
00:24:39,935 --> 00:24:45,511
something. I can speak to this one, actually. So the

362
00:24:45,511 --> 00:24:48,991
purpose of the fracking is to increase the porosity of

363
00:24:48,991 --> 00:24:52,834
the rock. And so the pressure is natural. They can

364
00:24:52,834 --> 00:24:57,485
do certain things, such as fracking. To basically allow the

365
00:24:57,485 --> 00:25:00,605
flow to move more into the pipe, but the pressure

366
00:25:00,605 --> 00:25:10,019
is being created by naturally, essentially. Thank you. It'll drop

367
00:25:10,019 --> 00:25:13,339
in an area pretty quickly after they start drilling, and

368
00:25:13,339 --> 00:25:16,661
then there are a number of. Artificial ways that they

369
00:25:16,661 --> 00:25:20,977
can try to increase it again. But the advent of

370
00:25:20,977 --> 00:25:26,195
this technology is the reason that. We are now looking

371
00:25:26,195 --> 00:25:28,795
at a new kind of oil and gas development that

372
00:25:28,795 --> 00:25:32,595
affects Boulder county even though it's not on our lands,

373
00:25:32,595 --> 00:25:40,637
so Mikey can go ahead. Our first, biggest. And best

374
00:25:40,637 --> 00:25:42,637
example of this, if you call it that, is the

375
00:25:42,637 --> 00:25:45,997
Draco project. This was just approved by the Energy and

376
00:25:45,997 --> 00:25:49,437
Carbon Management Commission yesterday. So this is a brand new

377
00:25:49,437 --> 00:25:52,277
thing. So let me try to describe this image. This

378
00:25:52,277 --> 00:25:56,272
is a well bore schematic. The highlighted line down the

379
00:25:56,272 --> 00:25:58,712
center is the county line between Weld and Boulder County.

380
00:26:00,373 --> 00:26:03,173
To the right, you can see that blue point where

381
00:26:03,173 --> 00:26:05,693
all the different lines converge. That is the well, site.

382
00:26:07,642 --> 00:26:11,162
And I have forgotten how many wells they're proposing. Looks

383
00:26:11,162 --> 00:26:17,002
like probably in the 26, 28. Range, something like that.

384
00:26:17,002 --> 00:26:20,402
Each of these blue lines is a horizontal well, and

385
00:26:20,402 --> 00:26:22,442
so the well head. Like in the picture you saw.

386
00:26:22,442 --> 00:26:25,682
Will sit at that blue dot over to the right,

387
00:26:25,682 --> 00:26:28,330
that is. Two and a half miles. East of the

388
00:26:28,330 --> 00:26:32,170
Boulder county line. And then they're proposing to drill these

389
00:26:32,170 --> 00:26:35,450
well bores. Some of them will be 5 miles long,

390
00:26:35,450 --> 00:26:40,381
which is unprecedented. And they will, as you can see,

391
00:26:40,381 --> 00:26:45,418
enter Boulder County. This whole project is located immediately north

392
00:26:45,418 --> 00:26:53,022
of Arapaho and the well boars. As drawn here primarily

393
00:26:53,022 --> 00:26:56,975
come in under the town of Erie. A few of

394
00:26:56,975 --> 00:27:00,813
the laterals kind of in the center. Might just touch

395
00:27:00,813 --> 00:27:04,733
the very eastern edge of the Eddie open space property,

396
00:27:04,733 --> 00:27:07,613
and we're taking a hard look at our mineral rights

397
00:27:07,613 --> 00:27:10,813
on that property. We think they're leased, but as always.

398
00:27:12,433 --> 00:27:16,534
Confusing to confirm that. And then if you see. Where?

399
00:27:16,534 --> 00:27:22,317
The southern fuels. There. Stop short. Those stop short. So

400
00:27:22,317 --> 00:27:26,197
as not to penetrate underneath our Cmmn kersh and Cmmn

401
00:27:26,197 --> 00:27:31,699
foofi. Open space and conservation easement properties. I don't know

402
00:27:31,699 --> 00:27:35,939
what they were thinking, but that conveniently keeps us out

403
00:27:35,939 --> 00:27:38,659
of the ability to argue about this project because we

404
00:27:38,659 --> 00:27:44,920
are not a mineral owner. So, basically. They're not drilling

405
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:48,280
our minerals. And that takes away one of those hats

406
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,722
that we could wear. And basically what it comes down

407
00:27:51,722 --> 00:27:53,562
to is we have no legal legs to stand on

408
00:27:53,562 --> 00:27:57,211
with a project like this. We're too far away from

409
00:27:57,211 --> 00:28:00,691
the actual well site to be recognized as a regulatory

410
00:28:00,691 --> 00:28:04,331
power. Either by the state or by Weld county. We

411
00:28:04,331 --> 00:28:07,091
did submit comments to both and participated in hearings in

412
00:28:07,091 --> 00:28:12,238
this instance. And then state law only gives only the

413
00:28:12,238 --> 00:28:16,158
state the legal authority to regulate anything under the surface.

414
00:28:16,158 --> 00:28:18,278
So as soon as those whale bowers leave the surface

415
00:28:18,278 --> 00:28:22,303
downwards, We no longer have any influence of that. So

416
00:28:22,303 --> 00:28:25,703
we can't govern those we have no. Landowner power in

417
00:28:25,703 --> 00:28:27,783
this over the site, of course, because it's over there

418
00:28:27,783 --> 00:28:31,663
in welf. County. We don't own any of the minerals

419
00:28:31,663 --> 00:28:36,004
because they are drilling around us. So this leaves us

420
00:28:36,004 --> 00:28:38,524
in a very difficult position where there will be, well,

421
00:28:38,524 --> 00:28:43,265
boars coming into Boulder county and our ability. To push

422
00:28:43,265 --> 00:28:49,465
back or do anything. About the situation is extremely limited.

423
00:28:49,465 --> 00:28:51,345
And then if you go to the next slide, Michael.

424
00:28:53,161 --> 00:28:57,001
There are three more similar projects pending, and I just

425
00:28:57,001 --> 00:28:58,401
want to say a few more things. I imagine you

426
00:28:58,401 --> 00:29:02,662
have some questions. But in the upper left is the

427
00:29:02,662 --> 00:29:06,102
project called the Indigo pad. This one's about it's. North

428
00:29:06,102 --> 00:29:10,365
of Longmont. And the Wellpad itself is about three quarters

429
00:29:10,365 --> 00:29:14,102
of a mile into Weld county, and. It will drill

430
00:29:14,102 --> 00:29:19,733
under the langhoff viewpoint. Nup. And Wasach conservation easement properties

431
00:29:19,733 --> 00:29:22,613
where we do not own minerals. So it's the same

432
00:29:22,613 --> 00:29:26,002
situation as I just described. On the lower left is

433
00:29:26,002 --> 00:29:29,002
an image of the coyote trails pad. This one is

434
00:29:29,002 --> 00:29:31,682
proposed. It's to be two and a half miles into

435
00:29:31,682 --> 00:29:34,882
wild county, inside the town of Erie. Actually, this will

436
00:29:34,882 --> 00:29:39,748
drill into boulder county, just north of baseline. And the

437
00:29:39,748 --> 00:29:42,708
well bores that they're planning their stop just short of

438
00:29:42,708 --> 00:29:47,268
our arapaho. 119 and Josephine roach open space properties so

439
00:29:47,268 --> 00:29:49,428
they will not be drilling Boulder county minerals in that

440
00:29:49,428 --> 00:29:51,988
one either. And then the one on the right is

441
00:29:51,988 --> 00:29:54,588
a little hard to read, but this. Is a very

442
00:29:54,588 --> 00:30:00,483
strange project. There is a well pad. It's kind of

443
00:30:00,483 --> 00:30:03,603
the light gray dot to the central right. Part of

444
00:30:03,603 --> 00:30:06,405
the image. It's a mile and a half into Weld

445
00:30:06,405 --> 00:30:09,285
county. It's actually in the town of Frederick. And then,

446
00:30:09,285 --> 00:30:14,482
very unusually, They have. I think it's six separate rectangular

447
00:30:14,482 --> 00:30:16,882
shapes that are different drilling areas. So they're going to

448
00:30:16,882 --> 00:30:20,402
have welds going all different directions into all of those

449
00:30:20,402 --> 00:30:23,202
blue and yellow rectangles, and you can see that there's

450
00:30:23,202 --> 00:30:25,962
two of them that come into Boulder county again, the

451
00:30:25,962 --> 00:30:29,299
county line. Is there almost in the center of the

452
00:30:29,299 --> 00:30:34,610
picture. These are going to drill under Conino seven m.

453
00:30:34,610 --> 00:30:39,090
Neal and the Caldwell Conservation easement properties. Where again, we

454
00:30:39,090 --> 00:30:41,890
do not own the minerals. And you can see they

455
00:30:41,890 --> 00:30:44,250
left out the portion in the middle, where we do

456
00:30:44,250 --> 00:30:48,341
own minerals. So it's worth noting the odd shapes of

457
00:30:48,341 --> 00:30:54,207
these drilling units. They all appear. I'm just speculating here,

458
00:30:54,207 --> 00:30:57,247
but they appear to be making the effort to avoid

459
00:30:57,247 --> 00:31:01,037
county. Owned minerals. And that may be because they know

460
00:31:01,037 --> 00:31:04,666
we will fight to protect them. So assuming that they

461
00:31:04,666 --> 00:31:06,746
do have valid lease rights with the other parties who

462
00:31:06,746 --> 00:31:11,819
do own these minerals, As I said. Are legal rights

463
00:31:11,819 --> 00:31:15,699
with these projects are extremely limited. I do want to

464
00:31:15,699 --> 00:31:17,739
point out that when these whale boars come into the

465
00:31:17,739 --> 00:31:20,219
county, they will be almost 2 miles below the surface.

466
00:31:21,909 --> 00:31:24,949
People have generalized concerns which are very understandable. We have

467
00:31:24,949 --> 00:31:30,952
not. Seen. Real substantial evidence of any harm from drilling

468
00:31:30,952 --> 00:31:34,418
at depths like that. The most harms that we see

469
00:31:34,418 --> 00:31:37,218
from oil and gas drilling come from the surface sites,

470
00:31:37,218 --> 00:31:41,018
but nonetheless, we're disappointed at the intrusion, and we continue

471
00:31:41,018 --> 00:31:44,935
to analyze all of our, all of our options. So

472
00:31:44,935 --> 00:31:54,589
handing it over onto rusty. Hello. Rusty Crane. I work

473
00:31:54,589 --> 00:32:00,286
for public health. The Air quality division specifically, and I'm

474
00:32:00,286 --> 00:32:03,126
an oil gas specialist. I spend most of my days

475
00:32:03,126 --> 00:32:07,686
out doing oil and gas inspections and locating gas leaks

476
00:32:07,686 --> 00:32:12,326
using an optical gas imaging camera that's produced by flur

477
00:32:12,326 --> 00:32:15,684
and using that. And a honeywell gas meter I'm able

478
00:32:15,684 --> 00:32:21,729
to identify and quantify. Really? Even the smallest leaks. It's

479
00:32:21,729 --> 00:32:27,045
an amazing technology. This slide shows the results from 2024.

480
00:32:29,207 --> 00:32:32,407
So I was able to make 505 visits. That's at

481
00:32:32,407 --> 00:32:37,687
least two facility per facility. Three. For many, and I've

482
00:32:37,687 --> 00:32:45,080
found 113. Emissions, 17 of them. Exceeded our maximum concentration

483
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:49,562
threshold. And basically we were allowed to find for them.

484
00:32:51,336 --> 00:32:53,892
Which. 15 of those were fined. Two of them were

485
00:32:53,892 --> 00:32:58,868
not for other reasons. And our threshold is 500 parts

486
00:32:58,868 --> 00:33:04,650
per million. Voc that probably doesn't mean anything to you,

487
00:33:04,650 --> 00:33:10,853
but that's just. A guest concentration. We imposed 15 fines,

488
00:33:10,853 --> 00:33:18,082
unfortunately. Our maximum statutory cap is $300 per violation. So

489
00:33:18,082 --> 00:33:21,122
that's what we are finding and the total we're seeing

490
00:33:21,122 --> 00:33:26,617
for the year. Is $4,500. Rusty, quick question, Tony Lewis,

491
00:33:26,617 --> 00:33:33,018
Postac is the statutory cap, state or county? I believe

492
00:33:33,018 --> 00:33:38,449
that is state, but it's also. Yeah. Industry standard. People

493
00:33:38,449 --> 00:33:42,276
using that all over the country. Yes, the state air

494
00:33:42,276 --> 00:33:49,024
quality. Statutes limit us to $300 per violation per day.

495
00:33:50,705 --> 00:33:52,745
So we do try to keep out if a violation

496
00:33:52,745 --> 00:33:57,257
continues for days. We can find $300 per day, but

497
00:33:57,257 --> 00:33:59,817
we found it very difficult. I mean, it's. A good

498
00:33:59,817 --> 00:34:03,586
thing, really, but. We're not finding that. Rusty is finding

499
00:34:03,586 --> 00:34:06,626
the same emission day after day. It's. Usually a one

500
00:34:06,626 --> 00:34:11,266
time thing, so generally we've only been finding the $300.

501
00:34:11,266 --> 00:34:14,826
Thank you. Yeah. Of the 17 that I found, most

502
00:34:14,826 --> 00:34:18,307
of them were fixed on the spot. I have them

503
00:34:18,307 --> 00:34:22,107
kind of follow me around, and when I find leaks,

504
00:34:22,107 --> 00:34:25,062
I put them on immediately. And. If they can, they

505
00:34:25,062 --> 00:34:29,846
do. Fix them immediately. That's not always possible. Trace Baker

506
00:34:29,846 --> 00:34:39,583
Postac. The 500 parts per million, is that. A state,

507
00:34:39,583 --> 00:34:43,783
federal, county. Who imposes that, and what's the rationale for

508
00:34:43,783 --> 00:34:49,575
that particular number. I can speak to that one. The

509
00:34:49,575 --> 00:34:53,335
CDPHE. The Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment has

510
00:34:53,335 --> 00:34:57,135
chosen the 500 parts per million standard as their threshold

511
00:34:57,135 --> 00:35:02,545
to fine. However. They would not actually find for the

512
00:35:02,545 --> 00:35:06,928
emissions we're finding because. Our facilities are in their point

513
00:35:06,928 --> 00:35:11,440
of view. Too small of facilities to really regulate at

514
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:17,109
all. But we have. Independent authority to inspect and enforce

515
00:35:17,109 --> 00:35:20,229
for air quality aside from the state. So we use

516
00:35:20,229 --> 00:35:24,874
the same 500 parts per million because. We're relying on.

517
00:35:25,362 --> 00:35:27,082
Their background and their experts who have determined that that's

518
00:35:27,082 --> 00:35:31,882
an important threshold. But we're applying it to our smaller

519
00:35:31,882 --> 00:35:38,087
scale facilities. Under our separate local authority. Thank you. And

520
00:35:38,087 --> 00:35:44,517
know that that is a tight threshold. Christine. Yeah. Just

521
00:35:44,517 --> 00:35:50,710
very quickly. It's almost impossible at this point to measure

522
00:35:50,710 --> 00:35:54,630
the volume of gas released as you can. Imagine it's

523
00:35:54,630 --> 00:35:57,030
going into the atmosphere and it makes it extremely difficult

524
00:35:57,030 --> 00:36:00,314
to actually. Get the volume. So the best measure we

525
00:36:00,314 --> 00:36:03,154
can use is the concentration, and I believe 500 parts.

526
00:36:03,154 --> 00:36:10,678
Per million. Is. Not. Considered dangerous. To health or explosive.

527
00:36:10,678 --> 00:36:14,343
Is that right, Rusty? It's below those levels. So these

528
00:36:14,343 --> 00:36:16,863
are small leaks, but we take it very seriously, and

529
00:36:16,863 --> 00:36:21,143
we are nonetheless enforcing on them. Yeah. What's important to

530
00:36:21,143 --> 00:36:27,153
us is the cumulative effect. For precursors. Just because one

531
00:36:27,153 --> 00:36:29,873
leak is not huge, the cumulative effect of all the

532
00:36:29,873 --> 00:36:37,784
leaks Fraywell could be. Yeah, exactly. Christine. Christine Johnson Poseack.

533
00:36:37,784 --> 00:36:42,785
I'm curious. The identities of some of the VOCs and

534
00:36:42,785 --> 00:36:47,668
what their potential impacts are. Well, there's a long list

535
00:36:47,668 --> 00:36:51,428
of bocs, but they consider them all under the VOC.

536
00:36:51,428 --> 00:36:54,908
Umbrella. I'm not sure how many there are, but there's

537
00:36:54,908 --> 00:37:00,632
quite a few. The other precursor that we're looking at

538
00:37:00,632 --> 00:37:05,165
quite a bit is methane. But that is not included

539
00:37:05,165 --> 00:37:09,998
in the VOC list. That's the one outlier. Yeah, our

540
00:37:09,998 --> 00:37:15,526
equipment. Doesn't speciate between the different gases. So we're able

541
00:37:15,526 --> 00:37:19,246
to say it's 500 parts per million of some VoC.

542
00:37:19,246 --> 00:37:21,686
Or some combination of vocs, but we don't have the

543
00:37:21,686 --> 00:37:25,366
technology to separate out which or which, with the exception

544
00:37:25,366 --> 00:37:30,492
of methane, where we. Have. A formula that Rusty's been

545
00:37:30,492 --> 00:37:33,612
using where we can presume that a certain portion of

546
00:37:33,612 --> 00:37:36,812
a gas is actually methane, but other than that, we're

547
00:37:36,812 --> 00:37:39,132
only able to say it falls. Within that VOC category.

548
00:37:40,755 --> 00:37:43,955
And I believe that all VOCs are regulated in the

549
00:37:43,955 --> 00:37:49,754
same way. For michael. More presentation? Yes. I think we're

550
00:37:49,754 --> 00:37:51,794
just moving on to the end with where Kate will

551
00:37:51,794 --> 00:37:55,114
talk about policy work. Great. Oh, yes. I just want

552
00:37:55,114 --> 00:37:57,794
to point out that our broader owen gas team aside

553
00:37:57,794 --> 00:38:00,114
from everything we've been talking about out in the field

554
00:38:00,114 --> 00:38:06,938
or occasionally, in the courtroom. We also spend a lot

555
00:38:06,938 --> 00:38:11,018
of time working on policy at the legislature and in

556
00:38:11,018 --> 00:38:13,538
the various state agencies. And the one piece I wanted

557
00:38:13,538 --> 00:38:16,818
to pull up because it affects your Bailey wick here.

558
00:38:18,216 --> 00:38:21,336
Is the SB 24 185 from last year, which was

559
00:38:21,336 --> 00:38:26,446
called. Our shorthand is the force pooling bill. We are

560
00:38:26,446 --> 00:38:30,526
pretty excited about that, actually. It's very technical, but it

561
00:38:30,526 --> 00:38:33,286
actually is really good. For us from a mineral owner

562
00:38:33,286 --> 00:38:37,942
standpoint. So force pooling or statutory pooling, as you may

563
00:38:37,942 --> 00:38:41,502
know, authorizes the state to give permission to an operator

564
00:38:41,502 --> 00:38:44,422
to go ahead and drill the minerals of an owner

565
00:38:44,422 --> 00:38:47,382
who does not consent. So it's a little bit like

566
00:38:47,382 --> 00:38:50,342
an imminent domain action where this is my property. I

567
00:38:50,342 --> 00:38:52,302
don't want it to be used. And that fake says

568
00:38:52,302 --> 00:38:57,340
it's going to be. Used anyway. It sounds counterintuitive, but

569
00:38:57,340 --> 00:38:59,460
it has been found legal by the Colorado courts over

570
00:38:59,460 --> 00:39:03,126
time. However, last year we were able to get this

571
00:39:03,126 --> 00:39:06,366
bill through the legislature to prohibit the force pooling. Of

572
00:39:06,366 --> 00:39:10,606
any minerals owned by local governments. So up until then,

573
00:39:10,606 --> 00:39:14,983
all these minerals that we own. Were actually vulnerable to

574
00:39:14,983 --> 00:39:21,014
being forcibly developed by operators. But now the minerals that

575
00:39:21,014 --> 00:39:24,414
we've purchased are safer from development, and I say safer.

576
00:39:26,155 --> 00:39:29,755
As opposed to 100% safe? Because if they're already leased

577
00:39:29,755 --> 00:39:34,244
out, we cannot protect them. Through this, Bill. It only

578
00:39:34,244 --> 00:39:37,844
protects minerals that are not already leased. And of course,

579
00:39:37,844 --> 00:39:41,324
a good number of our mineral acres are already leased,

580
00:39:41,324 --> 00:39:45,648
but that said, as long as. We own unleashed minerals,

581
00:39:45,648 --> 00:39:49,655
which we do, and. Hopefully will continue to shed some

582
00:39:49,655 --> 00:39:53,175
of these old leases that have expired. Those minerals are

583
00:39:53,175 --> 00:39:55,975
now protected. By the bill, so getting that through was

584
00:39:55,975 --> 00:40:00,030
a good victory. And. A lot of these regulatory pieces

585
00:40:00,030 --> 00:40:04,439
are wonky. And incremental, but we're pretty proud of our

586
00:40:04,439 --> 00:40:06,119
work there, so I just wanted. To point that out

587
00:40:06,119 --> 00:40:09,233
too. And I think that's all we have. So if

588
00:40:09,233 --> 00:40:11,633
there's any further questions or. Discussion. If you want to

589
00:40:11,633 --> 00:40:14,313
take any more of your time, we're happy to. Great.

590
00:40:16,706 --> 00:40:18,666
Thank you, Kate. Thank you. S T. Thank you, Michael.

591
00:40:20,276 --> 00:40:26,877
Questions. Carol? Yes. Carol Byerly Pos. So. When these pipes

592
00:40:26,877 --> 00:40:29,997
go under the property in boulder county and they're 2

593
00:40:29,997 --> 00:40:35,284
miles below the surface. So if a farmer has land

594
00:40:35,284 --> 00:40:39,634
above them. If a farmer has land above them. They

595
00:40:39,634 --> 00:40:43,175
don't have any control over that either. And so what

596
00:40:43,175 --> 00:40:46,455
is the law? How far down do we own the

597
00:40:46,455 --> 00:40:52,193
land? I mean, the mineral? Rights, even if. Farmers own

598
00:40:52,193 --> 00:40:58,064
the mineral rights. When you sever the two. What is

599
00:40:58,064 --> 00:41:00,464
the size of the land portion versus the size of

600
00:41:00,464 --> 00:41:06,915
the mineral portion? Go ahead, Kate. And Michael has some

601
00:41:06,915 --> 00:41:10,435
more experience, so he'll, he can chime into this, too,

602
00:41:10,435 --> 00:41:12,355
if I were to sell you the mineral rights under

603
00:41:12,355 --> 00:41:17,300
my house. We don't. Measure. You own it from 10ft

604
00:41:17,300 --> 00:41:21,431
down. Or that kind of thing. I would tell you

605
00:41:21,431 --> 00:41:27,448
the mineral rights period and maybe to certain minerals. For

606
00:41:27,448 --> 00:41:30,168
example, we have leases for coal from the old days

607
00:41:30,168 --> 00:41:37,280
or. That accept coal, for example, but basically. What? You're

608
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:39,680
leasing or selling is the right to pretty much any

609
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:43,869
mineral under there. And then what comes with that is

610
00:41:43,869 --> 00:41:47,824
a very complicated. Set of rights to actually get at

611
00:41:47,824 --> 00:41:53,082
those minerals. So all of that to say. There's not.

612
00:41:54,097 --> 00:41:58,830
A defining line between where the farmer. Farmers ownership ends

613
00:41:58,830 --> 00:42:04,857
and the operator's possession of the rights begins. However, there

614
00:42:04,857 --> 00:42:08,497
is a law or a legal principle called the reasonable

615
00:42:08,497 --> 00:42:13,575
accommodation doctrine, which says that. Whoever's drilling to get at

616
00:42:13,575 --> 00:42:17,015
their minerals can't interfere too much with what the person

617
00:42:17,015 --> 00:42:20,800
on the surface is trying to do. So, for example,

618
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:23,898
Michael can tell you. One of his jobs is to

619
00:42:23,898 --> 00:42:26,898
WorK with our tenant farmers who are doing things on

620
00:42:26,898 --> 00:42:30,618
the surface. And are sometimes interrupted by the oil and

621
00:42:30,618 --> 00:42:34,578
gas guys because they're getting the way of their rotating

622
00:42:34,578 --> 00:42:41,082
sprinklers, for example, or they're grazing. And so. They can't

623
00:42:41,082 --> 00:42:46,048
impair the farmer's ability to farm. So we can't point

624
00:42:46,048 --> 00:42:48,488
to a spot in the ground where the ownership changes.

625
00:42:51,202 --> 00:42:53,482
It's more amorphous than that. And we have to go

626
00:42:53,482 --> 00:42:57,995
on these principles. You have to make accommodations for me.

627
00:42:57,995 --> 00:43:00,355
What I'm doing, and you can't interfere. With what I'm

628
00:43:00,355 --> 00:43:03,315
doing. And those are the kind of principles that keep

629
00:43:03,315 --> 00:43:05,755
us busy, Michael. Might have something more to add to

630
00:43:05,755 --> 00:43:10,732
that. Yeah, I don't really have a whole lot more

631
00:43:10,732 --> 00:43:14,452
to add, really. These are sort of. Abstract concepts and

632
00:43:14,452 --> 00:43:18,812
not specific delineations of depth or anything like that. The

633
00:43:18,812 --> 00:43:22,612
oil and gas underneath the property. If that is what

634
00:43:22,612 --> 00:43:25,532
was deeded away, it is really the oil and gas.

635
00:43:25,532 --> 00:43:29,962
At any depth under that property. So, Carol. Byerly Posac

636
00:43:29,962 --> 00:43:36,085
again. So does Draco. Have the mineral rights to. All

637
00:43:36,085 --> 00:43:39,805
the property in Boulder county. Has they bought all that

638
00:43:39,805 --> 00:43:44,264
up? Yeah. Well, to get to one of the things

639
00:43:44,264 --> 00:43:46,704
Kate mentioned as well, they would have to own a

640
00:43:46,704 --> 00:43:49,784
certain percentage, which I believe is now over, has been

641
00:43:49,784 --> 00:43:52,504
changed to 51%, and then they can pool people who

642
00:43:52,504 --> 00:43:58,133
are not governments, local smaller farmers, for example. They may

643
00:43:58,133 --> 00:44:00,373
not wish to be a part of this, but as

644
00:44:00,373 --> 00:44:04,796
long. As they have a certain percentage of those leases

645
00:44:04,796 --> 00:44:06,836
already in their ownership, they can go to the state

646
00:44:06,836 --> 00:44:11,767
and. Pool non consenting owners to create a drilling unit.

647
00:44:13,187 --> 00:44:17,147
So there's still some force pooling. Yes. Just not affecting

648
00:44:17,147 --> 00:44:22,288
us. Okay, thank you. And we don't know. So that

649
00:44:22,288 --> 00:44:26,358
the operator in this. Is actually extract. Is it extraction

650
00:44:26,358 --> 00:44:30,738
or crystal? The Duracopad. I don't know where they came

651
00:44:30,738 --> 00:44:34,576
up with the name the operator. Is a company called

652
00:44:34,576 --> 00:44:39,776
Civitas, and they have various affiliates, but anyway, presumably they

653
00:44:39,776 --> 00:44:43,136
own the mineral rights. If they don't, then they would

654
00:44:43,136 --> 00:44:47,015
have to force pool. Because we are not a party

655
00:44:47,015 --> 00:44:52,759
to this. Chances are no one. Is taking. A very

656
00:44:52,759 --> 00:44:55,679
hard look at whether they actually do or not, because

657
00:44:55,679 --> 00:44:57,719
we tend to be the ones who force the hard

658
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:03,856
look, but presumably. They own the minerals. If they have

659
00:45:03,856 --> 00:45:05,696
to, they'll do a forced pooling. I have not heard

660
00:45:05,696 --> 00:45:09,550
about whether they're going to or not. Just one clarification.

661
00:45:09,550 --> 00:45:14,129
Own or lease, probably, right, yeah. When the states call

662
00:45:14,129 --> 00:45:18,873
you an owner. This is very confusing. Yeah. The owner

663
00:45:18,873 --> 00:45:21,673
in the state's eyes is the person with the right

664
00:45:21,673 --> 00:45:27,721
to drill. So in our case. They would call the

665
00:45:27,721 --> 00:45:30,161
tenant of your building. They call that person the owner,

666
00:45:30,161 --> 00:45:32,401
because they have the right to be in the building,

667
00:45:32,401 --> 00:45:36,120
so it gets confusing. But yes. So they have to

668
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:39,480
have the right to drill either through a lease or

669
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:42,840
through outright ownership or some other kind of agreement. Great.

670
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:49,679
Thank you. Other questions, Janet. Janet george posak. You answered

671
00:45:49,679 --> 00:45:51,079
most of the question I was going to ask. It

672
00:45:51,079 --> 00:45:53,919
was one that Carol asked towards the end, and it

673
00:45:53,919 --> 00:45:58,322
was about when you look at the Draco project, It

674
00:45:58,322 --> 00:46:02,602
looks like they have all the leases or ownership because

675
00:46:02,602 --> 00:46:05,522
there are no gaps in those lines. Other than where

676
00:46:05,522 --> 00:46:09,970
open space is. So in answered the question about that,

677
00:46:09,970 --> 00:46:14,145
but. Is there anyone, the state or anyone during the

678
00:46:14,145 --> 00:46:19,796
permitting that actually checks to see. If. They have leases

679
00:46:19,796 --> 00:46:28,478
for everything, or ownership. Not really. When the operator files

680
00:46:28,478 --> 00:46:35,358
its application to the state. They will. Sign. A certification

681
00:46:35,358 --> 00:46:38,038
in their application that they own the requisite mineral rights.

682
00:46:40,834 --> 00:46:43,914
But when we have fought back on some of these

683
00:46:43,914 --> 00:46:46,874
projects and we've asked for the actual evidence that they

684
00:46:46,874 --> 00:46:49,938
do, they refuse to give it to us. When we've

685
00:46:49,938 --> 00:46:53,568
asked the agency. To demand that they prove it. They

686
00:46:53,568 --> 00:46:57,862
have declined to do so. In our experience, we have

687
00:46:57,862 --> 00:47:00,102
not found that anyone is taking that hard look and.

688
00:47:03,774 --> 00:47:06,686
They are taking the operator's word for it. Thank you.

689
00:47:09,949 --> 00:47:16,973
Other questions from Postac. Carol. Carol byerly posac. So why

690
00:47:16,973 --> 00:47:20,435
are you telling us now? Is this? Just an information.

691
00:47:22,053 --> 00:47:24,413
To let us know what's going on beneath the surface.

692
00:47:25,851 --> 00:47:30,866
Or. Why should we know this? I mean, I'm happy

693
00:47:30,866 --> 00:47:34,750
to know it, but I'm. Just wondering why now. That

694
00:47:34,750 --> 00:47:36,470
might be a good question for Janice if she's there.

695
00:47:37,870 --> 00:47:43,486
She comes. She asked us to. Hello. Janice Wisman, real

696
00:47:43,486 --> 00:47:46,646
estate division manager. You may recall a couple of months

697
00:47:46,646 --> 00:47:48,606
ago I gave you our annual report for the real

698
00:47:48,606 --> 00:47:52,766
estate division. And when I do that, talk about closings.

699
00:47:52,766 --> 00:47:57,566
Which include acquisitions and dispositions, our conservation easement, monitoring work,

700
00:47:57,566 --> 00:47:59,606
and I also talk about our oil and gas activities.

701
00:48:01,712 --> 00:48:03,832
And we thought that it might be useful, and it

702
00:48:03,832 --> 00:48:06,192
sounded like there was some interest at the time for

703
00:48:06,192 --> 00:48:07,792
you to hear more about this, and I just want

704
00:48:07,792 --> 00:48:12,405
to say publicly and thank rusty. I know. It's been

705
00:48:12,405 --> 00:48:14,485
especially difficult for you, Rusty, to join us tonight. I

706
00:48:14,485 --> 00:48:18,525
appreciate that. And Kate. And Michael, particularly for putting this

707
00:48:18,525 --> 00:48:19,965
together and giving us to you, because I feel like.

708
00:48:21,662 --> 00:48:22,902
It has been really informative, and I hope it's been

709
00:48:22,902 --> 00:48:26,422
helpful to you. Thank you. Janice. It's been incredibly helpful.

710
00:48:27,833 --> 00:48:29,713
It takes me back to some work I did around

711
00:48:29,713 --> 00:48:35,965
force pooling, and it's a little bit traumatic. But. I

712
00:48:35,965 --> 00:48:41,282
appreciate. What you guys are doing and checking. And the

713
00:48:41,282 --> 00:48:44,202
frustrations involved, too, watching it come in from another county.

714
00:48:45,624 --> 00:48:50,523
With little to no regulatory powers. Very difficult. I think

715
00:48:50,523 --> 00:48:54,603
that's it from Posac. Nick, do we have anybody online

716
00:48:54,603 --> 00:49:02,488
with comments? Yeah. I'm going to open it up to

717
00:49:02,488 --> 00:49:04,608
anybody on Zoom call if you would like. To make

718
00:49:04,608 --> 00:49:07,648
comments on this current agenda item, please use the raise

719
00:49:07,648 --> 00:49:11,450
hand feature so we can call on you. I am

720
00:49:11,450 --> 00:49:14,010
not seeing any raised hands. All right, thank you. And

721
00:49:14,010 --> 00:49:17,890
anybody in the audience who wishes to comment. Okay. Michael,

722
00:49:17,890 --> 00:49:20,890
Kate, Rusty, thank you all very much. Really appreciate you

723
00:49:20,890 --> 00:49:24,610
coming. Thank you. Making time for us. Thank you. Yeah,

724
00:49:24,610 --> 00:49:26,770
thank you. And, Janice, thank you for being here as

725
00:49:26,770 --> 00:49:36,476
well. All right. Okay, we'll move on to elk management.

726
00:49:39,038 --> 00:49:41,838
Great report that you all sent. Thank you for doing

727
00:49:41,838 --> 00:49:46,869
that. And we did also have some comments online. Hopefully

728
00:49:46,869 --> 00:49:51,269
you guys have seen those cozy. Those, too. But several

729
00:49:51,269 --> 00:49:57,982
people have weighed in has been nice. So, john. You

730
00:49:57,982 --> 00:50:01,632
are up. Thank you for coming tonight. Thank you guys

731
00:50:01,632 --> 00:50:05,082
for having me. And you got to get really close

732
00:50:05,082 --> 00:50:08,682
to them, Mike. We're getting admonished all right. Is that

733
00:50:08,682 --> 00:50:10,642
good enough for everybody? That is perfect. All right, well,

734
00:50:10,642 --> 00:50:13,002
thank you guys for having me. My name is John

735
00:50:13,002 --> 00:50:16,122
de Cost. I'm the elk management coordinator for Boulder county

736
00:50:16,122 --> 00:50:19,202
parks. And open space. And I'm going to give an

737
00:50:19,202 --> 00:50:23,326
overall update of the program where we're at now. And

738
00:50:23,326 --> 00:50:26,368
then ultimately. We're going to be asking you guys to

739
00:50:26,368 --> 00:50:31,496
recommend. Reauthorization to the commissioners at the end of this.

740
00:50:33,327 --> 00:50:35,127
So I'll go through a little bit of a background

741
00:50:35,127 --> 00:50:37,527
if there's any new. Members of Postac that don't know

742
00:50:37,527 --> 00:50:41,493
the full background of the program. Tell you guys what

743
00:50:41,493 --> 00:50:44,213
we've been up to most recently, where we're at and

744
00:50:44,213 --> 00:50:46,613
kind of where the program is and where we're hoping

745
00:50:46,613 --> 00:50:51,304
to take it going forward. So, ultimately. We're asking for

746
00:50:51,304 --> 00:50:54,024
reauthorization of the Red Hill management plan for another three.

747
00:50:54,024 --> 00:50:57,560
Years. We're asking for some slight modifications to that, but

748
00:50:57,560 --> 00:51:00,735
overall, We still want to include a hunt program there.

749
00:51:02,227 --> 00:51:04,627
Run store preserve at Rabbit Mountain elk and vegetation management

750
00:51:04,627 --> 00:51:08,747
plan also needs to be reauthorized at this point because

751
00:51:08,747 --> 00:51:11,827
of the success we've seen with the program. We're recommending

752
00:51:11,827 --> 00:51:16,225
no hunting there for the foreseeable future. We've had really

753
00:51:16,225 --> 00:51:19,956
good success that. I'll show later on in the presentation.

754
00:51:21,138 --> 00:51:24,138
And if hunting is necessary again, obviously we'd be coming

755
00:51:24,138 --> 00:51:27,498
to you and going back to the commissioners for reapproval

756
00:51:27,498 --> 00:51:31,313
before we start any hunting at Rabbit Mountain. And John,

757
00:51:31,313 --> 00:51:34,673
it is difficult to stick in front of the mic,

758
00:51:34,673 --> 00:51:37,113
but as soon as you turn your head. Probably folks

759
00:51:37,113 --> 00:51:39,313
online have a hard time. Okay, I will keep my

760
00:51:39,313 --> 00:51:44,727
head. Thank you. So just an overall background? Elk have

761
00:51:44,727 --> 00:51:48,007
been in Colorado for 8000 years. There's a long history

762
00:51:48,007 --> 00:51:53,460
of hunting and use by indigenous people. In the 19th

763
00:51:53,460 --> 00:51:56,987
and 20th century. We lost pretty much all of our

764
00:51:56,987 --> 00:52:01,467
elk in Colorado due to unrestricted market hunting. Elk were

765
00:52:01,467 --> 00:52:06,341
reintroduced. In 1912 to 1914 at Rocky Mountain National Park.

766
00:52:08,099 --> 00:52:12,358
And today, Colorado, it's an incredible success story. We both.

767
00:52:12,358 --> 00:52:16,798
Over 280,000 animals. It's the largest Elkurd in North America.

768
00:52:18,294 --> 00:52:21,574
And that's kind of where we stand now. Boulder county

769
00:52:21,574 --> 00:52:25,685
is not much different. We also struggled. We had very

770
00:52:25,685 --> 00:52:29,605
few elk. When Boulder county acquired Ron store Preserve up

771
00:52:29,605 --> 00:52:33,950
at Rabbit Mountain. Elk were not on the property. You

772
00:52:33,950 --> 00:52:36,630
may get sporadic out coming through, but really we had

773
00:52:36,630 --> 00:52:39,191
no elk to speak of in the area. In early

774
00:52:39,191 --> 00:52:43,631
2000s, we started to see elk regularly on this property,

775
00:52:43,631 --> 00:52:45,871
which was great. It's something that the property could handle.

776
00:52:47,386 --> 00:52:50,546
But around 2012, we started to see that number creep

777
00:52:50,546 --> 00:52:54,499
up. In 2016, we had close to 400 elk that

778
00:52:54,499 --> 00:52:57,339
were staying at Rabbit Mountain, not leaving the area. And

779
00:52:57,339 --> 00:53:01,619
that's where this elk management plan kind of materialized from.

780
00:53:03,271 --> 00:53:07,831
A couple of reasons why this became problematic. Rabbit Mountain,

781
00:53:07,831 --> 00:53:10,311
along with the Red Hill area, which I'll also be

782
00:53:10,311 --> 00:53:15,106
discussing. Rabbit Mountain is some of the highest biodiversity of

783
00:53:15,106 --> 00:53:17,786
all the areas along the northern front range. Along with

784
00:53:17,786 --> 00:53:22,907
Red Hill. So having 350 elk camped out there was

785
00:53:22,907 --> 00:53:26,867
doing some pretty serious damage to the ecosystem. These areas

786
00:53:26,867 --> 00:53:29,747
were previously only used as winter range and severe winter

787
00:53:29,747 --> 00:53:32,107
range, meaning that elk would be calving up in the

788
00:53:32,107 --> 00:53:37,442
indian peaks in the summer, coming down into. The plains

789
00:53:37,442 --> 00:53:41,402
in the winter, overwintering here in milder conditions and migrating

790
00:53:41,402 --> 00:53:44,941
back up. That dynamic started to shift when we started

791
00:53:44,941 --> 00:53:47,621
to have the 350 elk that stayed year round at

792
00:53:47,621 --> 00:53:51,501
Rabbit mountain. You can see in these photos we had

793
00:53:51,501 --> 00:53:59,963
bedding areas and trails. That basically became. Open soil that

794
00:53:59,963 --> 00:54:02,563
we had cheat grass and incursions there and other noxious

795
00:54:02,563 --> 00:54:06,083
weeds. We had elk over browsing the native mountain mahogany

796
00:54:06,083 --> 00:54:09,403
communities. There we had bull elk rubbing on a lot

797
00:54:09,403 --> 00:54:11,963
of our young saplings, so it was causing a lot

798
00:54:11,963 --> 00:54:18,083
of issues to that really great. Biodiversity, really high biodive.

799
00:54:17,921 --> 00:54:21,551
Biodiversity area, and we wanted to prevent that at the

800
00:54:21,551 --> 00:54:24,112
same time. It was also causing all these issues to

801
00:54:24,112 --> 00:54:27,910
surrounding landowners, so. We were having damage to private property.

802
00:54:29,467 --> 00:54:34,390
Ran through fences. People encountering elk on highways, often resulting

803
00:54:34,390 --> 00:54:39,110
in vehicle collisions, elk camping out in people's irrigated agriculture,

804
00:54:39,110 --> 00:54:43,154
like this corn crop that you see here. Or destroying

805
00:54:43,154 --> 00:54:47,777
infrastructure, center pivots and things like that. So in 2014,

806
00:54:47,777 --> 00:54:52,497
CPW created the subunit for hunting that was specifically really

807
00:54:52,497 --> 00:54:55,257
a private land tag. So that private landowners could try

808
00:54:55,257 --> 00:54:58,057
to address this issue in the area at the same

809
00:54:58,057 --> 00:55:00,377
time, parks and open space. We tried hazing at Rabbit

810
00:55:00,377 --> 00:55:03,177
Mountain. Non lethal methods to try to move the elk

811
00:55:03,177 --> 00:55:07,592
off the property. That really didn't work. At all, Elkwood

812
00:55:07,592 --> 00:55:11,032
would pretty much start ignoring us after a few attempts.

813
00:55:12,191 --> 00:55:14,031
Here's just a map. We did end up putting collars

814
00:55:14,031 --> 00:55:17,151
on these elk the center. Part of that map is

815
00:55:17,151 --> 00:55:20,631
Rabbit Mountain, and elk would go there during the day,

816
00:55:20,631 --> 00:55:23,791
and then at night radiate out to those agriculture fields

817
00:55:23,791 --> 00:55:28,967
in the area, causing the damage we just discussed. So

818
00:55:28,967 --> 00:55:33,967
in 2017, through Postac and the commissioners Carol Byerly Post

819
00:55:33,967 --> 00:55:37,699
that, can we see that? Map again. I want to

820
00:55:37,699 --> 00:55:43,863
understand it. Okay. These are individual elks. Each color represents

821
00:55:43,863 --> 00:55:49,933
a different individual l color. Okay, so each collar represents

822
00:55:49,933 --> 00:55:51,973
a lot more elk. These are all put out on

823
00:55:51,973 --> 00:55:56,114
cow elk. One of the things in our study that

824
00:55:56,114 --> 00:55:59,514
I've noticed is we ended up, I think, by our

825
00:55:59,514 --> 00:56:01,994
trapping methods. A lot of times it was clover traps.

826
00:56:01,994 --> 00:56:07,314
We were self selecting. Matriarch females. And so a lot

827
00:56:07,314 --> 00:56:10,394
of these collars represent one female that has a lot

828
00:56:10,394 --> 00:56:13,594
of other females. Following them around. So these are individual

829
00:56:13,594 --> 00:56:16,794
colors, but you can extrapolate there's other. Animals moving around

830
00:56:16,794 --> 00:56:25,039
with these individuals. Thank you. In 2017. With commissioners, we

831
00:56:25,039 --> 00:56:28,239
approved the first management plan at Rabbit Mountain, and ultimately

832
00:56:28,239 --> 00:56:30,839
the goals of that plan. Were to reduce the resource

833
00:56:30,839 --> 00:56:34,559
impacts caused by the herd, try to reestablish migration and

834
00:56:34,559 --> 00:56:37,999
reduce elk concentration. Unlike what a lot of people think,

835
00:56:37,999 --> 00:56:40,759
this program is not a culling program. We do do

836
00:56:40,759 --> 00:56:46,232
lethal harvesting. But it's really to change the behavior of

837
00:56:46,232 --> 00:56:48,952
the elk. As I said earlier, the hazing didn't work.

838
00:56:50,827 --> 00:56:55,107
And so adding that lethal component to the hazing really

839
00:56:55,107 --> 00:56:57,627
forced the change in behavior. So we didn't coal 300

840
00:56:57,627 --> 00:57:01,380
elk off the properties. We started this program, and they

841
00:57:01,380 --> 00:57:05,854
stopped seeing rabbit Mountain as the refuge. And then ultimately,

842
00:57:05,854 --> 00:57:08,054
our goal was to reduce that population to no more

843
00:57:08,054 --> 00:57:10,774
than 30 resident elk ones. That aren't migrating back to

844
00:57:10,774 --> 00:57:13,734
the high country and up to 70 elk with those

845
00:57:13,734 --> 00:57:18,224
winter migrants coming down. And then also reduce damage and

846
00:57:18,224 --> 00:57:22,451
impacts to private landowners in the area. This adaptive management

847
00:57:22,451 --> 00:57:25,051
plan was approved. Initially, it was a three year program.

848
00:57:27,432 --> 00:57:32,403
We are also simultaneously collecting data on. These elkurds in

849
00:57:32,403 --> 00:57:37,127
the area. In collaboration with CPW staff at the county,

850
00:57:37,127 --> 00:57:39,887
are also monitoring vegetation at Rabbit Mountain to see if

851
00:57:39,887 --> 00:57:43,287
there's impacts of this program, we fenced off some of

852
00:57:43,287 --> 00:57:47,810
the core use areas. There. We aren't doing hazing anymore

853
00:57:47,810 --> 00:57:51,065
outside of the calving season. And the biggest thing that

854
00:57:51,065 --> 00:57:53,505
was approved was a limited hunting of Antler OSLC. We

855
00:57:53,505 --> 00:57:57,065
only target cows. And that program has been going on

856
00:57:57,065 --> 00:57:59,785
now for eight years. So that was reapproved through this

857
00:57:59,785 --> 00:58:03,239
past season. Give you a background now on the Red

858
00:58:03,239 --> 00:58:07,439
Hill Elkurd, at the same time that the rabbit heard

859
00:58:07,439 --> 00:58:10,199
we started the elk management program at Rabbit Mountain. We

860
00:58:10,199 --> 00:58:14,133
started to see very similar. Trends with the red hill

861
00:58:14,133 --> 00:58:16,893
herd. So if you look at the map on the

862
00:58:16,893 --> 00:58:19,013
left hand side, from a collar study that was done

863
00:58:19,013 --> 00:58:22,679
in the late 90s, early 2000s. We had very few

864
00:58:22,679 --> 00:58:26,159
elk staying year round. And also, if you notice the

865
00:58:26,159 --> 00:58:28,519
elk that did stay round were all staying north of

866
00:58:28,519 --> 00:58:34,987
Nelson Road there. So fast forward to 2017. 2017. You

867
00:58:34,987 --> 00:58:37,187
see a lot more elk in the area staying year

868
00:58:37,187 --> 00:58:39,947
round. You see a lot more elk moving south. The

869
00:58:39,947 --> 00:58:43,227
tan blob on that map is table. Mountain. And that

870
00:58:43,227 --> 00:58:45,787
is becoming one of the big issues in this southern

871
00:58:45,787 --> 00:58:48,667
Red Hill area where elk are using Table Mountain as

872
00:58:48,667 --> 00:58:53,151
the refuge now. So again, Red Hill is also an

873
00:58:53,151 --> 00:58:58,899
area of high biodiversity. It was previously like Rabbit Mountain,

874
00:58:58,899 --> 00:59:02,648
only used for winter and severe winter range. But over

875
00:59:02,648 --> 00:59:06,261
time, those elk numbers. Those resident elk numbers have been

876
00:59:06,261 --> 00:59:10,754
steadily increasing and. They're primarily using these areas that we

877
00:59:10,754 --> 00:59:13,114
don't have a lot of people on. So these ecologically

878
00:59:13,114 --> 00:59:17,643
sensitive areas on the west side of Highway 36. They

879
00:59:17,643 --> 00:59:20,763
tend to camp out there and cause damage. These are

880
00:59:20,763 --> 00:59:25,963
those initial counts in 2018 and 2019. Where 2018, we

881
00:59:25,963 --> 00:59:28,123
had about 50 resident elk in the next year. We

882
00:59:28,123 --> 00:59:35,707
saw that jump. By 50% over 100. And so we

883
00:59:35,707 --> 00:59:38,227
decided that we needed to act on this, so we

884
00:59:38,227 --> 00:59:40,147
didn't get up. To 400 l, like we were seeing

885
00:59:40,147 --> 00:59:44,861
at Rabbit Mountain. Similar issues that we were seeing at

886
00:59:44,861 --> 00:59:49,701
Rabbit Mountain. Increased car and vehicle collisions on highway 36.

887
00:59:51,824 --> 00:59:55,467
Increased damage to private. Land and crops in the area.

888
00:59:55,467 --> 00:59:58,747
There's a lot of specialty crops, organic agriculture in this.

889
00:59:58,747 --> 01:00:01,627
Area and then also the resource damage to our open

890
01:00:01,627 --> 01:00:06,598
space properties. To address this, CPW extended the subunit from

891
01:00:06,598 --> 01:00:10,198
Highway 66 down to Nywat Road so that allowed us

892
01:00:10,198 --> 01:00:13,078
to address some of these issues with our hunt program.

893
01:00:14,250 --> 01:00:19,182
There's a close up of the expanded subunit boundary. And

894
01:00:19,182 --> 01:00:21,542
much like the Red Hill, a rabbit mountain management plan.

895
01:00:23,286 --> 01:00:25,526
We want to prevent resource damage to our areas of

896
01:00:25,526 --> 01:00:29,722
high biodiversity. We want to maintain. A migrating Elkurd in

897
01:00:29,722 --> 01:00:32,962
this area with no more than 25 resident elk staying

898
01:00:32,962 --> 01:00:35,946
around in the summer months. We want to continue working

899
01:00:35,946 --> 01:00:40,586
with our agricultural tenants to limit damage to crops caused

900
01:00:40,586 --> 01:00:43,666
by the elk. And then we also want to facilitate

901
01:00:43,666 --> 01:00:46,026
highway safety along us 36 in any way that we

902
01:00:46,026 --> 01:00:50,701
can. That plan was approved in 2020. Initially, it was

903
01:00:50,701 --> 01:00:55,732
a two year program. It's a short season. We target

904
01:00:55,732 --> 01:00:57,812
August 15 to the end of October, so we're not

905
01:00:57,812 --> 01:01:00,172
targeting those migratory elk. That are coming down from the

906
01:01:00,172 --> 01:01:01,892
high country and doing what we want them to do.

907
01:01:02,978 --> 01:01:05,098
Those elk are only targeted if they start ending up

908
01:01:05,098 --> 01:01:08,738
in agricultural properties, and that's on an as needed basis,

909
01:01:08,738 --> 01:01:13,398
but our actual hunt program ends on October 31. And

910
01:01:13,398 --> 01:01:16,068
like I said, We still can send hunters after that

911
01:01:16,068 --> 01:01:18,828
to tenant lease properties if they're experiencing damage and we've

912
01:01:18,828 --> 01:01:22,628
had some success with that, and that's been extended or

913
01:01:22,628 --> 01:01:26,115
was extended through this past season. So where are we

914
01:01:26,115 --> 01:01:32,349
now? Rabbit mountain update. The hunter. Success has been steadily

915
01:01:32,349 --> 01:01:35,269
declining over the last eight years. This past year we

916
01:01:35,269 --> 01:01:38,988
had one harvest there. Which, as far as success goes,

917
01:01:40,695 --> 01:01:42,895
Is a little counterintuitive, but low hunter success up here.

918
01:01:44,164 --> 01:01:47,691
Is really exemplifying the success of this program. We really

919
01:01:47,691 --> 01:01:50,731
didn't have elk in the area. Our hunters weren't seeing

920
01:01:50,731 --> 01:01:54,051
elk this was a particularly challenging year, I think, for

921
01:01:54,051 --> 01:01:56,651
elk in the area, given the stone canyon fire and

922
01:01:56,651 --> 01:01:58,491
also the mine reclamation going on, so there's a lot

923
01:01:58,491 --> 01:02:01,571
of activity, but that's still a trend that we've been

924
01:02:01,571 --> 01:02:05,104
seeing. The elk aren't camping out on the properties. They're

925
01:02:05,104 --> 01:02:07,384
just not using it as the same kind of refuge

926
01:02:07,384 --> 01:02:11,013
that we've been. Seeing in past years. Our ultimate goal

927
01:02:11,013 --> 01:02:14,293
is 30 to 70 individuals, 30 resident elk that stay

928
01:02:14,293 --> 01:02:17,293
there year round and up. To 70 that join the

929
01:02:17,293 --> 01:02:21,546
herd in the winter. These are our elk count, our

930
01:02:21,546 --> 01:02:25,346
minimum high counts of elk. I only have up until

931
01:02:25,346 --> 01:02:30,595
20, 23. 24 last year. Because we really can't find

932
01:02:30,595 --> 01:02:35,560
elk in the subunit bencraft is here with CPW. And

933
01:02:35,560 --> 01:02:38,520
he was telling me, they estimate that there's roughly 40

934
01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:41,400
between Blue Mountain and birthed. And I think that puts

935
01:02:41,400 --> 01:02:43,920
it really within the target of what we're trying to

936
01:02:43,920 --> 01:02:47,040
achieve at rabbit mountain and is why we're not going

937
01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:49,720
to be recommending hunting at Rabbit Mountain for the foreseeable

938
01:02:49,720 --> 01:02:56,408
future. Tenant issues. Our county tenants are experiencing much less

939
01:02:56,408 --> 01:02:59,248
elk damage than they have in the past. We haven't.

940
01:02:59,248 --> 01:03:01,048
Had to use hunters on any of their properties in

941
01:03:01,048 --> 01:03:06,912
the last two years. CPW still paid out close to

942
01:03:06,912 --> 01:03:10,192
$11,000 in game damage to some tenants in the area,

943
01:03:10,192 --> 01:03:13,487
but that's really. Going to one producer, and it's a

944
01:03:13,487 --> 01:03:15,207
producer that we've been having issues with. In the past.

945
01:03:16,399 --> 01:03:19,199
But ultimately, I think elk damage in the area is

946
01:03:19,199 --> 01:03:23,420
generally going down. Targeted hunting on private property has moved

947
01:03:23,420 --> 01:03:26,917
elk around tooth there is a lot of private. Property

948
01:03:26,917 --> 01:03:30,037
hunters in the area. The subunit harvest is staying, actually.

949
01:03:31,870 --> 01:03:34,990
Pretty steady. So it is telling us that the elk

950
01:03:34,990 --> 01:03:37,910
are still there. The elk are moving around. But ultimately,

951
01:03:37,910 --> 01:03:40,150
we've taken rabbit mount out of the equation as being

952
01:03:40,150 --> 01:03:44,398
that refuge where. They're staying. Another issue that we're having

953
01:03:44,398 --> 01:03:46,998
in the area is bachelor bulls are becoming an issue.

954
01:03:46,998 --> 01:03:50,148
We have large groups of bulls running around. That's a

955
01:03:50,148 --> 01:03:53,068
really tricky situation to deal with. Cpws trying to address

956
01:03:53,068 --> 01:03:55,667
that on their end. We don't want to get into

957
01:03:55,667 --> 01:03:58,627
the business of harvesting bulls, but that is something that's

958
01:03:58,627 --> 01:04:02,934
becoming an issue. For the recent past has been really

959
01:04:02,934 --> 01:04:05,614
tough to deal with, and CPW sounds like it's. Starting

960
01:04:05,614 --> 01:04:10,717
to try to address some of this. So elk numbers

961
01:04:10,717 --> 01:04:13,957
have been steadily declining. We do need some more accurate

962
01:04:13,957 --> 01:04:16,717
herd counts, but overall, I think it's pretty safe to

963
01:04:16,717 --> 01:04:18,757
say that we do not have the elk problem at

964
01:04:18,757 --> 01:04:21,913
rabbit. Mountain that we used to. Hunter success and harvest

965
01:04:21,913 --> 01:04:26,313
numbers have steadily declined. Hunting pressure has assisted tenants and

966
01:04:26,313 --> 01:04:29,633
neighbors with elk damage issues and long term vegetation. Monitoring

967
01:04:29,633 --> 01:04:33,153
by county staff has shown that there's a really strong

968
01:04:33,153 --> 01:04:35,433
recovery in these areas that have been over browsed and

969
01:04:35,433 --> 01:04:40,544
overused by the Elkurd. For red hill. We have a

970
01:04:40,544 --> 01:04:44,984
whole different dynamic down here. 2024 saw the highest harvest

971
01:04:44,984 --> 01:04:48,424
rates in the five year history. We had 18 animals

972
01:04:48,424 --> 01:04:53,477
harvested 15 during the actual season. And three more after

973
01:04:53,477 --> 01:04:57,317
the season on county owned property leased by tenants the

974
01:04:57,317 --> 01:05:02,025
elk were getting into their stored hay. So the elk

975
01:05:02,025 --> 01:05:05,145
in the Red Hill area, those numbers have continued to

976
01:05:05,145 --> 01:05:09,745
grow. They're continuing to cause conflict with our agricultural producers,

977
01:05:09,745 --> 01:05:13,360
particularly on the eastern side of the county. Highway safety.

978
01:05:14,809 --> 01:05:17,449
Is continuing to be a concern along Highway 36, but

979
01:05:17,449 --> 01:05:19,929
we're also starting to see issues along the diagonal highway.

980
01:05:21,458 --> 01:05:25,258
So again, our objectives, just to remind everyone, is 25

981
01:05:25,258 --> 01:05:30,459
non migratory elkit in the Red Hill. Area. Summer heard

982
01:05:30,459 --> 01:05:32,339
counts with CPW is what we try to use to

983
01:05:32,339 --> 01:05:37,093
get. At those numbers. And this is truncated. These are

984
01:05:37,093 --> 01:05:39,693
all summer counts. So each line represents a different summer

985
01:05:39,693 --> 01:05:43,053
count. Each year. So if you look at 2024, those

986
01:05:43,053 --> 01:05:46,973
two counts last summer were 57 and 47, which is

987
01:05:46,973 --> 01:05:52,078
obviously higher than 25. But. We weren't aware that there

988
01:05:52,078 --> 01:05:54,118
were as many elk as there were on the east

989
01:05:54,118 --> 01:05:56,598
side. Of the diagonal highway, so this is likely an

990
01:05:56,598 --> 01:06:01,619
undercount and. We're estimating that there's close to 80 elk

991
01:06:01,619 --> 01:06:03,579
in the subunit or in this area of the subunit

992
01:06:03,579 --> 01:06:10,458
right now. And. We're still seeing. Extensive game damage in

993
01:06:10,458 --> 01:06:16,889
this area, so crop damage, trampling. Row covers. Infrastructure damage.

994
01:06:18,176 --> 01:06:23,336
Cpw paid. Over $36,000 in game damage in this area

995
01:06:23,336 --> 01:06:28,780
this past year. So. We've been trying to address it.

996
01:06:28,780 --> 01:06:30,580
Our hands are tied as far as the county is.

997
01:06:30,580 --> 01:06:32,380
What we can do, but we're doing everything we can

998
01:06:32,380 --> 01:06:34,820
on the properties that we can. Use this program with

999
01:06:34,820 --> 01:06:39,233
using hunters from our Red Hill program. But there's issues.

1000
01:06:39,233 --> 01:06:43,564
Table Mountain continues to be an issue. That we're trying

1001
01:06:43,564 --> 01:06:47,844
to address. So, overall, Red Hill, the numbers remain outside

1002
01:06:47,844 --> 01:06:51,204
of the plan. Objectives. Hunter success and harvest numbers are

1003
01:06:51,204 --> 01:06:55,844
dramatically increased. This past year, hunting pressure has assisted tenants

1004
01:06:55,844 --> 01:06:57,724
with elk damage issues, but that's going to be an

1005
01:06:57,724 --> 01:07:01,324
ongoing issue. And like I said earlier, elk have been

1006
01:07:01,324 --> 01:07:04,309
seeking refuge regularly. For the past few years on Table

1007
01:07:04,309 --> 01:07:13,338
Mountain. So overall, rabbit mountain, we've. Successfully achieved most of

1008
01:07:13,338 --> 01:07:16,465
our plan objectives. In Bread Hill. We're still outside of

1009
01:07:16,465 --> 01:07:24,609
plan objectives. So next steps for 2020. After this 20,

1010
01:07:24,609 --> 01:07:28,329
24, 25 season. Our management plans have been improved through

1011
01:07:28,329 --> 01:07:32,316
this last hunting season. We're hoping to have a recommendation

1012
01:07:32,316 --> 01:07:37,222
to reauthorize these plans. And go before the commissioners for

1013
01:07:37,222 --> 01:07:39,462
Rabbit Mountain. We would like to reauthorize the plan. For

1014
01:07:39,462 --> 01:07:43,672
three more years. We will be pausing hunting indefinitely until

1015
01:07:43,672 --> 01:07:48,112
we see any of those herd metrics start to increase.

1016
01:07:48,112 --> 01:07:53,829
Again if hunting is necessary. We would seek Bocc approval

1017
01:07:53,829 --> 01:07:56,775
going forward. But we're also hoping that if we can

1018
01:07:56,775 --> 01:07:59,735
reauthorize this plan, this will. Still allow us to use

1019
01:07:59,735 --> 01:08:04,168
hunters and some of these tools. On leased properties. If

1020
01:08:04,168 --> 01:08:06,448
that's something that becomes an issue in the next few

1021
01:08:06,448 --> 01:08:10,153
years. For Red Hill. We're also hoping to reauthorize the

1022
01:08:10,153 --> 01:08:16,002
plan for another three. Years. One recommendation we have is

1023
01:08:16,002 --> 01:08:19,719
to remove the whole northern. Hunt area from the red

1024
01:08:19,719 --> 01:08:22,879
hill west side. We don't have any harvests there. We

1025
01:08:22,879 --> 01:08:26,399
don't have hunters hunting there. The ledge ditch that you

1026
01:08:26,399 --> 01:08:30,319
can see coming out of the northeast part of that

1027
01:08:30,319 --> 01:08:34,479
graphic that broke in. The 2013 flood, and so there's

1028
01:08:34,479 --> 01:08:36,599
very little water on that north end of the property.

1029
01:08:36,599 --> 01:08:38,519
And so elk don't use that in those summer months.

1030
01:08:40,012 --> 01:08:41,372
We do have a lot of elk there now. In

1031
01:08:41,372 --> 01:08:43,412
the winter months, there's some hanging. Meadows on that north

1032
01:08:43,412 --> 01:08:45,732
end that they like to use. But during our hunt

1033
01:08:45,732 --> 01:08:48,172
season, our hunters don't hunt there. There's a parking area

1034
01:08:48,172 --> 01:08:50,812
in the north. And in the three years I've been

1035
01:08:50,812 --> 01:08:53,972
here. No, hundreds have parked there. And that's also the

1036
01:08:53,972 --> 01:08:56,052
area where a lot of the neighbors in the north

1037
01:08:56,052 --> 01:08:58,572
point neighborhood have had issues with the hunt, and I

1038
01:08:58,572 --> 01:09:01,646
think, just for safety. I don't think it's necessary to

1039
01:09:01,646 --> 01:09:04,837
have this as part of the hunt anymore. We have

1040
01:09:04,837 --> 01:09:07,437
most of our success in the area to the south

1041
01:09:07,437 --> 01:09:10,317
that you see circled in orange. And then across the

1042
01:09:10,317 --> 01:09:11,837
road where we have the other hunt area on the

1043
01:09:11,837 --> 01:09:16,231
east side of highway. 36. Sorry. Derek Turner Pozak, while

1044
01:09:16,231 --> 01:09:19,791
we're on that specific subject, we had a public comment.

1045
01:09:19,791 --> 01:09:23,311
On this about the northern boundary of the new area

1046
01:09:23,311 --> 01:09:26,471
being out of rifle shot range is this. In your

1047
01:09:26,471 --> 01:09:28,871
opinion, out of that, yes. And that brings me to

1048
01:09:28,871 --> 01:09:33,313
the next point. So. Has been an area that we

1049
01:09:33,313 --> 01:09:35,873
have approved short range weapons. It's a rifle tag that

1050
01:09:35,873 --> 01:09:40,836
we hunt under. But because of neighbor concerns, like the

1051
01:09:40,836 --> 01:09:45,596
North Point neighbors, we opted to use, initially archery shotguns.

1052
01:09:45,596 --> 01:09:51,350
And muzzle loaders. After two years ago, we removed archery,

1053
01:09:51,350 --> 01:09:53,430
mainly because we weren't seeing the success that we were

1054
01:09:53,430 --> 01:09:55,790
hoping for. But also we were having some conflicts with

1055
01:09:55,790 --> 01:09:57,790
the gun hunters and the archery hunters. That the archers

1056
01:09:57,790 --> 01:09:59,830
had to get much closer, and then you'd have gun

1057
01:09:59,830 --> 01:10:03,470
hunters 100 yards. Further away either, shooting over them, not

1058
01:10:03,470 --> 01:10:08,111
knowing. Just to avoid. And the only negative comments we'd

1059
01:10:08,111 --> 01:10:11,231
get when we did our hunter survey. Was from archers

1060
01:10:11,231 --> 01:10:16,694
that were feeling that it wasn't safe. But. The other

1061
01:10:16,694 --> 01:10:18,974
issue we've been seeing with using these shorter range weapons.

1062
01:10:21,560 --> 01:10:25,960
Is that it's not as effective if we had rifles.

1063
01:10:25,960 --> 01:10:27,320
We've heard from a lot of hunters. If there were

1064
01:10:27,320 --> 01:10:31,514
rifles, they would have been more effective in harvesting. And

1065
01:10:31,514 --> 01:10:34,274
based on the safety aspects, we have eight years of

1066
01:10:34,274 --> 01:10:36,434
very safe hunting at Rabbit Mountain. We have five years

1067
01:10:36,434 --> 01:10:40,636
of safe hunting here. I think this is an area

1068
01:10:40,636 --> 01:10:45,329
that we can safely use rifles. We've demonstrated that our

1069
01:10:45,329 --> 01:10:48,769
hunters have to go through a shooting proficiency test and

1070
01:10:48,769 --> 01:10:52,295
attend orientations. With us. This is also the only area

1071
01:10:52,295 --> 01:10:56,813
where we've seen significant wounding loss, and I think. That's

1072
01:10:56,813 --> 01:11:01,553
also due to. These shorter range weapons. They're taking shots

1073
01:11:01,553 --> 01:11:04,033
that are pretty much at the extent of the range

1074
01:11:04,033 --> 01:11:06,753
of these shorter range weapons at that time. You're losing

1075
01:11:06,753 --> 01:11:09,113
velocity. A lot of times they're hitting. Shoulders. It's not

1076
01:11:09,113 --> 01:11:12,193
full penetration. And we lose animals every year. This year

1077
01:11:12,193 --> 01:11:14,673
we only lost. One, but in past years it's been

1078
01:11:14,673 --> 01:11:17,513
higher. I think that would help with the success. In

1079
01:11:17,513 --> 01:11:20,593
this program. I also talking to local Dwm Joe pad.

1080
01:11:20,302 --> 01:11:22,832
Padilla he thinks that this will allow him to be

1081
01:11:22,832 --> 01:11:27,072
more successful in using hunters from this program on different

1082
01:11:27,072 --> 01:11:33,321
leased properties. If that's approved. So in addition to approving

1083
01:11:33,321 --> 01:11:39,453
those. Two management plans. We'll obviously continue monitoring efforts in

1084
01:11:39,453 --> 01:11:43,534
each management area. Red hills outside of that objective number.

1085
01:11:43,534 --> 01:11:45,374
So we're going to be monitoring to see where those

1086
01:11:45,374 --> 01:11:48,614
numbers are for rabbit Mountain. We'll continue to monitor to

1087
01:11:48,614 --> 01:11:51,854
see if that heard starts. To increase again and then

1088
01:11:51,854 --> 01:11:54,614
take appropriate actions. If that's what we're seeing, we're going

1089
01:11:54,614 --> 01:11:57,134
to continue to work with ag tenants in the area,

1090
01:11:57,134 --> 01:11:59,934
private landowners in the area. To deal with the elk

1091
01:11:59,934 --> 01:12:02,818
damage that they're seeing in the subun. Subunit. We're continuing

1092
01:12:02,818 --> 01:12:06,578
to have conversations with Table Mountain and their representatives to

1093
01:12:06,578 --> 01:12:10,021
allow limited hunting. A year and a half ago, we

1094
01:12:10,021 --> 01:12:13,421
actually got our law. We met with their lawyers. We

1095
01:12:13,421 --> 01:12:15,661
were working up a plan to allow limited hunting at

1096
01:12:15,661 --> 01:12:19,461
Table Mountain, and then they kind of went radio. Silent.

1097
01:12:19,461 --> 01:12:23,135
We had a meeting two weeks ago. Where we were

1098
01:12:23,135 --> 01:12:26,910
told that. They're willing and ready to explore that again,

1099
01:12:26,910 --> 01:12:30,912
so. We may get some movement there. They've also talked

1100
01:12:30,912 --> 01:12:35,611
about potentially bringing in. Wildlife services to do a very

1101
01:12:35,611 --> 01:12:37,971
quick and efficient call up there if they have to

1102
01:12:37,971 --> 01:12:43,178
do that. So that's another option that they're exploring, that

1103
01:12:43,178 --> 01:12:46,498
we wouldn't have much. Jurisdiction over. But Joe Padilla and

1104
01:12:46,498 --> 01:12:49,178
again, we as a county entity wouldn't be involved. With

1105
01:12:49,178 --> 01:12:52,378
hunting on table mountain. That would be through CPW, but

1106
01:12:52,378 --> 01:12:54,458
they would be modeling it based on our program and

1107
01:12:54,458 --> 01:12:56,898
likely using hunters from our program because we have such

1108
01:12:56,898 --> 01:13:00,723
a rigorous. Entry into our program through the orientations and

1109
01:13:00,723 --> 01:13:04,102
shooting tests. I don't know where that's going to go,

1110
01:13:04,102 --> 01:13:07,422
but that's still on. The table and something we're discussing.

1111
01:13:07,422 --> 01:13:10,702
CPW has also been discussing limited harvest of bulls. On

1112
01:13:10,702 --> 01:13:14,943
private land. I don't know much more about that, but

1113
01:13:14,943 --> 01:13:18,064
that was a discussion. Maybe Ben could talk about that.

1114
01:13:18,064 --> 01:13:21,064
But again, that's a very tricky subject, and there's. A

1115
01:13:21,064 --> 01:13:24,791
reason we haven't done that yet. So stay tuned for

1116
01:13:24,791 --> 01:13:27,231
that. And then also, we want to prioritize highway safety

1117
01:13:27,231 --> 01:13:31,156
on Highway 36. I was just involved in a large

1118
01:13:31,156 --> 01:13:34,636
project with other staff members trying to get plans for

1119
01:13:34,636 --> 01:13:37,876
wildlife. Crossings where they would go. We heavily utilized the

1120
01:13:37,876 --> 01:13:40,876
el collar data. We had to show where those crossing

1121
01:13:40,876 --> 01:13:46,405
points are and to. Give more data to support improving

1122
01:13:46,405 --> 01:13:49,555
safety along that roadway. So if you guys have any

1123
01:13:49,555 --> 01:13:52,355
questions and I'll play a video. I worked with a

1124
01:13:52,355 --> 01:13:55,555
grad student this last year, trying to get better elk

1125
01:13:55,555 --> 01:13:59,475
count data, and he was a uis pilot. And so

1126
01:13:59,475 --> 01:14:03,475
we explored using uis and drones to improve our lcounts

1127
01:14:03,475 --> 01:14:06,864
to try to get. Better data for this project.

1128
01:14:30,803 --> 01:14:33,363
And ultimately he concluded that we can see elk better

1129
01:14:33,363 --> 01:14:34,803
from a drone than we can from a ground with

1130
01:14:34,803 --> 01:14:41,674
binoculars and spotting scopes. And this is the Red Hill

1131
01:14:41,674 --> 01:14:44,554
properties is the west side of 36 and the southern

1132
01:14:44,554 --> 01:14:51,679
end of the Hunt area. What time of year? This

1133
01:14:51,679 --> 01:14:55,439
is either December or early January, I think is when

1134
01:14:55,439 --> 01:14:58,039
this is. So this would be most likely wintering else.

1135
01:14:58,039 --> 01:15:00,319
But at this point you have both migrants. You can

1136
01:15:00,319 --> 01:15:03,919
see there's a collar delt laying down there. But, yeah,

1137
01:15:03,919 --> 01:15:08,249
it's probably a mix of migrants and resident elk. And

1138
01:15:08,249 --> 01:15:09,969
you would know that driving along 36 they're up in

1139
01:15:09,969 --> 01:15:12,889
these high hanging meadows and you maybe see three or

1140
01:15:12,889 --> 01:15:16,529
four over the top edge of that hogback there, but

1141
01:15:16,529 --> 01:15:18,249
then you go over the top of the rim and

1142
01:15:18,249 --> 01:15:19,889
there's 70 or 80 elk in here.

1143
01:15:32,684 --> 01:15:37,644
Great footage anyway. Thank you, John. Thank you. Great presentation,

1144
01:15:37,644 --> 01:15:45,297
really. Full of detail. I appreciate that. I'm sure we

1145
01:15:45,297 --> 01:15:48,337
have lots of questions. Let's start with Tracy down there.

1146
01:15:48,337 --> 01:15:53,982
Trace Baker, postac. Thank you for the detail. Want to

1147
01:15:53,982 --> 01:15:57,782
bring up maybe four questions here. Sure. And on one

1148
01:15:57,782 --> 01:16:01,302
of your slides, you seem to differentiate between hunting and

1149
01:16:01,302 --> 01:16:06,349
hazing. And so what? Hazing is still going on. So

1150
01:16:06,349 --> 01:16:08,469
we don't have hazing, right? Now. Okay, yeah. There's no

1151
01:16:08,469 --> 01:16:11,589
hazing going on. Although the one thing that we may

1152
01:16:11,589 --> 01:16:14,349
be able to get away with this year is sending

1153
01:16:14,349 --> 01:16:17,703
people out in blaze Orange. We have animals that don't

1154
01:16:17,703 --> 01:16:21,153
know we're not hunting. But if we're out there. The

1155
01:16:21,153 --> 01:16:22,793
reaction is going to be the same, at least in

1156
01:16:22,793 --> 01:16:25,482
the near term. That may wear off, so we may

1157
01:16:25,482 --> 01:16:27,282
be able to get away. If we do see animals

1158
01:16:27,282 --> 01:16:29,042
in the next year or two going up there and

1159
01:16:29,042 --> 01:16:30,802
hazing, and they may run away and it may actually

1160
01:16:30,802 --> 01:16:35,122
be effective because we have eight years of people out

1161
01:16:35,122 --> 01:16:39,402
there where there's a lethal consequence to the hunters. Being

1162
01:16:39,402 --> 01:16:41,682
there where before, when we tried it, going out there

1163
01:16:41,682 --> 01:16:45,384
with staff. To run out, chase elk. That's not very

1164
01:16:45,384 --> 01:16:47,024
effective. They learn pretty quickly that you're not a threat.

1165
01:16:48,965 --> 01:16:51,245
And I did that with Dave as a volunteer a

1166
01:16:51,245 --> 01:16:55,226
few years ago. There you go. And the elk ran

1167
01:16:55,226 --> 01:16:59,518
away. It's just that, with one exception, they never ran

1168
01:16:59,518 --> 01:17:01,998
in the direction where we wanted them. To run. That's

1169
01:17:01,998 --> 01:17:10,576
the other thing about wildlife. The next question.

1170
01:17:12,471 --> 01:17:17,440
In. The slides and also in the packet we received

1171
01:17:17,440 --> 01:17:22,753
for Postac. There was a phrase recommend exploring the use

1172
01:17:22,753 --> 01:17:27,433
of rifles. How would that process of exploration or study.

1173
01:17:28,816 --> 01:17:32,157
Be conducted well. I would like to get public input,

1174
01:17:32,157 --> 01:17:36,344
obviously, on that. This area specifically for Red Hill is

1175
01:17:36,344 --> 01:17:39,344
the area that we did have neighbor concerns with high

1176
01:17:39,344 --> 01:17:45,985
powered rifles, so I would like to. Solicit public feedback

1177
01:17:45,985 --> 01:17:50,338
again. And. I would also like to defer a little

1178
01:17:50,338 --> 01:17:53,538
bit to some of our cpw padilla or local dwm,

1179
01:17:53,538 --> 01:17:58,618
some of our cpw colleagues. With their recommendations. They've been

1180
01:17:58,618 --> 01:18:02,144
involved in the program for eight years now. And really

1181
01:18:02,144 --> 01:18:08,611
see the benefit of adding rifles. And I think. Argument

1182
01:18:08,611 --> 01:18:11,038
that. They could convincingly make, but, yeah, I think we

1183
01:18:11,038 --> 01:18:15,638
need thorough public feedback for that before going. To the

1184
01:18:15,638 --> 01:18:21,246
commissioners, okay? So the decision to use rifles or not,

1185
01:18:21,246 --> 01:18:23,926
would that go directly to the commissioners or to, would

1186
01:18:23,926 --> 01:18:27,776
it. Come here first. That? I don't know. Okay, sorry.

1187
01:18:30,691 --> 01:18:32,851
I was hoping to go to the commissioners with that.

1188
01:18:32,851 --> 01:18:40,186
Okay, yeah. Thank you. You mentioned several times. Concerns from

1189
01:18:40,186 --> 01:18:44,759
people living in the area regarding rifles. And I'm not

1190
01:18:44,759 --> 01:18:47,799
a hunter, and I haven't fired a rifle since about

1191
01:18:47,799 --> 01:18:54,008
1971. But I imagine there is some trade off. Among

1192
01:18:54,008 --> 01:19:03,743
increased accuracy. But increased range. And therefore. Possible

1193
01:19:03,743 --> 01:19:12,624
people, dogs, whatever. In increased lethality. So. If the accuracy

1194
01:19:12,624 --> 01:19:16,365
is improved with a rifle. Would that mean less of

1195
01:19:16,365 --> 01:19:19,885
a chance of stray bullets? Of getting into people's houses?

1196
01:19:21,727 --> 01:19:23,807
Yes, I think overall, yes, that's what you would see.

1197
01:19:23,807 --> 01:19:29,771
I also. Think the topography of this area would really

1198
01:19:29,771 --> 01:19:36,491
limit any projectile actually reaching any houses. There's the impression

1199
01:19:36,491 --> 01:19:38,691
that that whole west side of 36 is very hilly.

1200
01:19:40,825 --> 01:19:42,385
If you're shooting off of there, that could go way

1201
01:19:42,385 --> 01:19:51,554
out onto the plains. Janet hunted there. 's. A lot

1202
01:19:51,554 --> 01:19:54,754
of topography. Once you start getting generally you're not shooting

1203
01:19:54,754 --> 01:19:56,474
towards the road, is the one thing you're shooting into

1204
01:19:56,474 --> 01:19:58,994
the interior of the property, and there's a lot of

1205
01:19:58,994 --> 01:20:02,954
hogbacks in topography that would limit any stray bullets from

1206
01:20:02,954 --> 01:20:06,828
going very far there. I also don't think you're still

1207
01:20:06,828 --> 01:20:08,788
not going to be taking a three or 400 yard

1208
01:20:08,788 --> 01:20:11,708
shot for the most part on these properties because the

1209
01:20:11,708 --> 01:20:14,628
topography limits that as well. So when I'm saying you're

1210
01:20:14,628 --> 01:20:18,508
at the maximum range for a muzzle loader or shotgun.

1211
01:20:18,508 --> 01:20:21,828
It's 150 yards where a rifle is going to give

1212
01:20:21,828 --> 01:20:25,508
you that accuracy at that. Distance, and it's going to.

1213
01:20:25,861 --> 01:20:27,821
Give you the knock down power that you're starting to

1214
01:20:27,821 --> 01:20:29,661
lose some of that as you're getting on those further

1215
01:20:29,661 --> 01:20:34,210
distances with these shorter range weapons. Okay, thank you. And

1216
01:20:34,210 --> 01:20:40,079
finally. Wanting to try to anticipate a possible public comment.

1217
01:20:41,656 --> 01:20:46,993
You mentioned. The history of safety at Rabbit Mountain with

1218
01:20:46,993 --> 01:20:55,171
the train hunters. And having. No unsafe incidents there. Do

1219
01:20:55,171 --> 01:20:59,011
you feel that would be a sufficient predictor for safety

1220
01:20:59,011 --> 01:21:03,901
at Red Hill? Yeah. I think our program, the way

1221
01:21:03,901 --> 01:21:06,341
it's set up, is very self selecting for hunters that

1222
01:21:06,341 --> 01:21:08,341
want to be in the program. People that find out

1223
01:21:08,341 --> 01:21:10,741
that they have to jump through all these hoops to

1224
01:21:10,741 --> 01:21:13,741
hunt. And we're also very involved. Our hunters were in

1225
01:21:13,741 --> 01:21:16,461
contact with them. Every day they're checking in and checking

1226
01:21:16,461 --> 01:21:19,769
out every time they leave the property. So we end

1227
01:21:19,769 --> 01:21:23,609
up with hunters that are very ethical, that aren't taking

1228
01:21:23,609 --> 01:21:29,771
ethically questionable. Shots. We end up with hunters that are

1229
01:21:29,771 --> 01:21:34,828
passing on shots. I think if you're on public land,

1230
01:21:34,828 --> 01:21:37,428
people probably would have taken, because we really do emphasize

1231
01:21:37,428 --> 01:21:41,669
the safety. We have hunt boundaries off any major roads

1232
01:21:41,669 --> 01:21:44,509
or private property so that we have buffers built into

1233
01:21:44,509 --> 01:21:47,509
that. So, yeah, I do think Rabbit Mountain and I

1234
01:21:47,509 --> 01:21:49,429
think also the track rabbit even at red hill with

1235
01:21:49,429 --> 01:21:53,288
shorter range weapons. It's still a firearm, and we still

1236
01:21:53,288 --> 01:21:56,168
have a really good safety record there as well. But

1237
01:21:56,168 --> 01:21:59,488
as far as your point being, that's where we've used

1238
01:21:59,488 --> 01:22:05,418
weapons. Long range rifles at Rabid Mountain. I think you'd

1239
01:22:05,418 --> 01:22:07,818
have very similar results here at Red Hill. I don't

1240
01:22:07,818 --> 01:22:10,058
think. There would be much difference. Okay, thank you very

1241
01:22:10,058 --> 01:22:19,128
much. Janet. Janet george posack. Great presentation. Most of the

1242
01:22:19,128 --> 01:22:21,608
questions, I'm sitting here exiting them off. So good job,

1243
01:22:21,608 --> 01:22:26,663
John, and getting that done? I guess I might actually

1244
01:22:26,663 --> 01:22:31,396
make as many comments as I have questions. One thing

1245
01:22:31,396 --> 01:22:36,285
I would say. I'll pose this as a question. So

1246
01:22:36,285 --> 01:22:38,965
before parks and home space own these properties. Red Hill.

1247
01:22:40,693 --> 01:22:44,613
Wasn't center fire rifles. The landowners were allowing hunting there.

1248
01:22:44,613 --> 01:22:47,053
Yeah, and they had a pretty robust hunting program with

1249
01:22:47,053 --> 01:22:50,493
centerfied rifles. Yeah, and some of the same landowners still

1250
01:22:50,493 --> 01:22:52,773
live in the area and they're on the private land.

1251
01:22:53,954 --> 01:22:57,274
They're still hunting with center fire, right? Yes. Okay, very

1252
01:22:57,274 --> 01:23:01,434
good. But I got to say, having lived around rabbit

1253
01:23:01,434 --> 01:23:04,811
mountain for 40 years. I commend you for the job

1254
01:23:04,811 --> 01:23:08,251
you in parks and homeless space staff had done. I

1255
01:23:08,251 --> 01:23:11,651
remember hiking up there before, there were hardly any elk

1256
01:23:11,651 --> 01:23:13,611
and seeing what it looked like, and then. As the

1257
01:23:13,611 --> 01:23:17,211
elk increase in a very short time in ten years,

1258
01:23:17,211 --> 01:23:21,505
watching some of the effects. Of the elk over browsing

1259
01:23:21,505 --> 01:23:23,785
and the trailing and the bedding and all that that

1260
01:23:23,785 --> 01:23:26,465
was. Going on. And now that elk numbers are down

1261
01:23:26,465 --> 01:23:30,134
and I'm still hiking around up there, I'm actually seeing

1262
01:23:30,134 --> 01:23:33,254
recovery too. And I'm sure you guys got data mine's?

1263
01:23:33,254 --> 01:23:36,934
Only anecdotal, but I'm seeing some of those trails fill

1264
01:23:36,934 --> 01:23:40,414
back in. With vegetation and native vegetation, too. Yeah, and

1265
01:23:40,414 --> 01:23:43,462
that's. I mean, it's not just. Our program. But removing

1266
01:23:43,462 --> 01:23:45,862
the elk was one aspect of that. Working with our

1267
01:23:45,862 --> 01:23:48,462
weeds program to get rid of the cheat grass. So

1268
01:23:48,462 --> 01:23:51,788
as a team at parks and open space, This is

1269
01:23:51,788 --> 01:23:55,262
one of our crown jewels, and we've really worked. To

1270
01:23:55,262 --> 01:23:58,902
reestablish that native community, so thank you for noticing. Yeah,

1271
01:23:58,902 --> 01:24:00,982
no, it's. Looking good. The other thing I would say

1272
01:24:00,982 --> 01:24:04,342
is, like you said, I've actually participated in the Red

1273
01:24:04,342 --> 01:24:07,982
Hill hunt. Been lucky enough to. And I commend you

1274
01:24:07,982 --> 01:24:10,182
in parks and home. Space staff for the job you

1275
01:24:10,182 --> 01:24:13,462
do. It's quite a rigorous selection process to go through.

1276
01:24:13,462 --> 01:24:17,959
The orientation, the. Proficiency testing. And the hunters that I

1277
01:24:17,959 --> 01:24:21,279
was out there with were great people. They were very

1278
01:24:21,279 --> 01:24:27,442
ethical. Everybody helped each other out. Staff helped out. So

1279
01:24:27,442 --> 01:24:32,059
good job. Great. I'll say that. Great. Thanks, Janet. Christine.

1280
01:24:33,797 --> 01:24:39,919
Christine johnson, posac. I wanted to read a couple of

1281
01:24:39,919 --> 01:24:44,710
comments. That we got from. That were submitted to us.

1282
01:24:46,198 --> 01:24:54,626
From david lucas in arvada. He suggested. Just as this

1283
01:24:54,626 --> 01:25:01,875
goes on, including. Numerical information on vehicle strikes. We know

1284
01:25:01,875 --> 01:25:07,467
you have it. And also including information on chronic wasting

1285
01:25:07,467 --> 01:25:11,287
disease. So with chronic waste disease. I will say so.

1286
01:25:11,287 --> 01:25:14,927
The first year that I took over managing this, hunt,

1287
01:25:14,927 --> 01:25:19,127
which is 2021. It was a mandatory CWD testing unit,

1288
01:25:19,127 --> 01:25:22,967
so every l carves did. In the subunit was tested

1289
01:25:22,967 --> 01:25:27,687
for CWD. All the Alkana program came back negative, but.

1290
01:25:27,687 --> 01:25:30,928
We do have, and it. Is lower, elk in general

1291
01:25:30,928 --> 01:25:33,808
have a lower prevalence of CWD, and females specifically have.

1292
01:25:35,302 --> 01:25:39,262
A lower instance of CWD than bull elk, but yeah,

1293
01:25:39,262 --> 01:25:41,862
it is something that we are trying to keep a

1294
01:25:41,862 --> 01:25:45,902
handle on, but that's really CPW's area, and we assist.

1295
01:25:45,902 --> 01:25:50,246
Them however we can, but. That's really. In their realm

1296
01:25:50,246 --> 01:25:54,006
of expertise. Thank you. And I wanted to note that

1297
01:25:54,006 --> 01:25:59,729
written comments were generally supportive. Of the hunts and had

1298
01:25:59,729 --> 01:26:06,586
hunters right in. I. Would like to also say, if

1299
01:26:06,586 --> 01:26:12,699
you're going to. Seek public comment from the neighbors. To

1300
01:26:12,699 --> 01:26:16,719
learn from some of the experiences. There have been a

1301
01:26:16,719 --> 01:26:22,906
couple of issues. In the last year. Where folks in

1302
01:26:22,906 --> 01:26:26,161
the area have not felt that. They have been in

1303
01:26:26,161 --> 01:26:29,481
other areas around other issues. They haven't felt that they've

1304
01:26:29,481 --> 01:26:33,281
gotten sufficient public comments. So reach out to other folks

1305
01:26:33,281 --> 01:26:37,614
in pos. About that. Yeah, I'm aware of that. Thank

1306
01:26:37,614 --> 01:26:41,136
you. We did ask for comment for this meeting with

1307
01:26:41,136 --> 01:26:45,350
you guys, but. Let's not discount we did have a

1308
01:26:45,350 --> 01:26:48,110
very rigorous public comment period leading up for both of

1309
01:26:48,110 --> 01:26:53,218
these programs. And. Recently, when we've tried to do public

1310
01:26:53,218 --> 01:26:57,738
outreach meetings with neighbors, we've had staff outnumbering the people

1311
01:26:57,738 --> 01:27:00,418
that show up, which I think take as an indication

1312
01:27:00,418 --> 01:27:02,058
that we're actually doing a really good job. They're in

1313
01:27:02,058 --> 01:27:05,098
a lot of public comment, but. Yes, I do take

1314
01:27:05,098 --> 01:27:08,738
your concern seriously, and yes, we will make sure we

1315
01:27:08,738 --> 01:27:13,497
explore that. And I also want to ensure that. You

1316
01:27:13,497 --> 01:27:17,970
get hunter input? About the weapons. I thought the comment

1317
01:27:17,970 --> 01:27:22,432
that you had about. The safety of the archers was

1318
01:27:22,432 --> 01:27:26,588
quite interesting, and the hunters know. And I think anything

1319
01:27:26,588 --> 01:27:29,188
that they have to say about the process would be

1320
01:27:29,188 --> 01:27:34,075
useful. Great. I'm curious. If you do a coal, what

1321
01:27:34,075 --> 01:27:37,075
happens with the animals? And what would happen with harvested

1322
01:27:37,075 --> 01:27:42,742
bowls? We wouldn't have anything to do with that. All

1323
01:27:42,742 --> 01:27:45,786
the meat would be donated. So that's the first and

1324
01:27:45,786 --> 01:27:48,266
foremost. None of that meat would be wasted. And my

1325
01:27:48,266 --> 01:27:50,746
guess? Is, they probably wouldn't be targeting bulls, but I

1326
01:27:50,746 --> 01:27:54,346
don't know, I mean, female. Reproduction drives herd size and

1327
01:27:54,346 --> 01:27:57,666
herd growth, and I'm guessing they'd be targeting mostly. Females,

1328
01:27:57,666 --> 01:27:59,906
but I don't know what the specifics would be there.

1329
01:28:01,989 --> 01:28:04,469
I do know CPW would be harvesting bowls in their

1330
01:28:04,469 --> 01:28:07,069
program. They would be taking trophy parts. He wouldn't be

1331
01:28:07,069 --> 01:28:10,789
able to keep trophy parts. Okay. Thank you. And the

1332
01:28:10,789 --> 01:28:14,651
last thing is. Just a comment. That everything that I've

1333
01:28:14,651 --> 01:28:19,021
heard about this program has been. Extremely positive. I really

1334
01:28:19,021 --> 01:28:23,701
commend pos about what they have done. If anything, I

1335
01:28:23,701 --> 01:28:28,354
would just encourage you. To do more public education. I

1336
01:28:28,354 --> 01:28:32,114
think that the public needs to hear more about what

1337
01:28:32,114 --> 01:28:39,338
you're. Doing because. When I talk to acquaintances. They're understanding

1338
01:28:39,338 --> 01:28:44,015
the situation. They're completely ignorant. Thank you. Okay. Thank you.

1339
01:28:44,015 --> 01:28:46,295
And that's a good point. Thanks. Derek, do you have

1340
01:28:46,295 --> 01:28:52,099
any questions? Carol. No. All right. One more question.

1341
01:28:56,028 --> 01:29:00,668
And commenting on the video that you finished your presentation

1342
01:29:00,668 --> 01:29:05,422
with. It seemed to be that the elk. Were very

1343
01:29:05,422 --> 01:29:09,566
unconcerned about the drone. That was also something we were

1344
01:29:09,566 --> 01:29:12,672
looking at. Yeah. They were not orienting towards it at

1345
01:29:12,672 --> 01:29:16,614
all. They don't really care. And we did trials where

1346
01:29:16,614 --> 01:29:18,974
we would move closer, even go straight. Over and shoot

1347
01:29:18,974 --> 01:29:21,694
down. There was a picture in there earlier looking straight

1348
01:29:21,694 --> 01:29:24,814
down at elk. They stayed. Bed it. They never got

1349
01:29:24,814 --> 01:29:26,174
up, but we were trying to keep at least a

1350
01:29:26,174 --> 01:29:29,334
three or 400. Foot buffer. Just because us, as the

1351
01:29:29,334 --> 01:29:31,814
wildlife group in the county, we've always been hesitant. To

1352
01:29:31,814 --> 01:29:34,094
use drones, and this is one of the first projects.

1353
01:29:34,450 --> 01:29:37,450
Where we took on a project using drones and then

1354
01:29:37,450 --> 01:29:40,675
also. We're really cognizant of any raptors. If there was

1355
01:29:40,675 --> 01:29:43,755
any issues with other species in the area. And ultimately,

1356
01:29:43,755 --> 01:29:46,875
we found this as a very non invasive way to

1357
01:29:46,875 --> 01:29:48,755
get some good data. This won't work everywhere in the

1358
01:29:48,755 --> 01:29:51,995
state. This is really specific to these. Smaller herds on

1359
01:29:51,995 --> 01:29:57,008
this urban. Rural interface. It works really well. These elk

1360
01:29:57,008 --> 01:30:00,688
are also really accustomed to disturbance. I think if some

1361
01:30:00,688 --> 01:30:02,928
of these western slope herds. It might not work, but,

1362
01:30:02,928 --> 01:30:07,000
yeah, this is a really good tool for. Local research.

1363
01:30:07,000 --> 01:30:11,197
Great. Thank you. That's great. Can you remind me, John?

1364
01:30:11,197 --> 01:30:15,757
Tony Lewis Posek. Of table mountain ownership is federal, right?

1365
01:30:15,757 --> 01:30:20,609
It's federal. Is it doe? It's department of Commerce, but

1366
01:30:20,609 --> 01:30:28,026
there's a bunch of. The guy, Rick Freeman, is the

1367
01:30:28,026 --> 01:30:31,266
facilities manager there. But if you look at his signature,

1368
01:30:31,266 --> 01:30:34,707
he's a bunch of different. Did you want to talk

1369
01:30:34,707 --> 01:30:37,947
at all about anything from the CPW perspective, you'd be

1370
01:30:37,947 --> 01:30:46,104
welcome to. Maybe just introduce yourself, get close to the

1371
01:30:46,104 --> 01:30:50,718
mic. Good evening, posac members. My name is ben kraft.

1372
01:30:50,718 --> 01:30:54,839
I'm michael holocaust with carl. Parks and wildlife. And I'd

1373
01:30:54,839 --> 01:30:57,399
just like to say that Caro Parks and wildlife really

1374
01:30:57,399 --> 01:31:00,759
appreciates the partnership that we have developed with Boulder county

1375
01:31:00,759 --> 01:31:04,354
parks and open space over the years. And a lot

1376
01:31:04,354 --> 01:31:07,734
of people have been in this process. For several years,

1377
01:31:07,734 --> 01:31:10,214
over a decade now. So it was a big lift

1378
01:31:10,214 --> 01:31:12,774
at the beginning, and it was a big endeavor from

1379
01:31:12,774 --> 01:31:16,334
the county, shifting back to traditional land use and traditional

1380
01:31:16,334 --> 01:31:18,855
values in the community. And I would say it was

1381
01:31:18,855 --> 01:31:20,695
cutting edge at the time for an open space to

1382
01:31:20,695 --> 01:31:22,815
go back. To those values in that type of a

1383
01:31:22,815 --> 01:31:28,476
management. So we really, really appreciate. Parks and OPa spaces

1384
01:31:28,476 --> 01:31:30,676
program that they develop in their partnership with us. What

1385
01:31:30,676 --> 01:31:33,996
you're doing now is helping us manage our l? Curtz

1386
01:31:33,996 --> 01:31:38,236
on a bigger landscale so we definitely appreciate that. I

1387
01:31:38,236 --> 01:31:39,596
will kind of go back to some of the cooling

1388
01:31:39,596 --> 01:31:43,092
stuff. That is something that I just found out about

1389
01:31:43,092 --> 01:31:45,212
today. It was something in a meeting. I mean. This

1390
01:31:45,212 --> 01:31:50,650
is all speculative. There's discussion within GBW as well. This

1391
01:31:50,650 --> 01:31:53,770
hasn't been at all. So this was something, I think.

1392
01:31:54,988 --> 01:31:58,467
That was just mentioned in passing, and now. It's grown

1393
01:31:58,467 --> 01:32:02,746
legs. Probably shouldn't cut the legs off. I think so

1394
01:32:02,746 --> 01:32:05,828
at this point. That's the only thing that I'll say

1395
01:32:05,828 --> 01:32:11,373
about that. Carol, you have a question? Carol Byerly Posek.

1396
01:32:11,373 --> 01:32:15,113
I don't know what you're. Referring to? Earlier, John mentioned.

1397
01:32:18,000 --> 01:32:23,335
Calling or some kind of. An aphesis program, USDA program

1398
01:32:23,335 --> 01:32:26,375
at Table Mountain in collaboration with Department of Commerce, federal.

1399
01:32:27,873 --> 01:32:29,633
And nothing that we would do. And you haven't heard

1400
01:32:29,633 --> 01:32:33,251
anything, okay. We had two weeks ago with them, okay?

1401
01:32:35,741 --> 01:32:37,181
Yeah. And it was said in passing there was no

1402
01:32:37,181 --> 01:32:42,181
more. Yeah, there's no they're. There right now. No. Okay,

1403
01:32:42,181 --> 01:32:46,210
but at least they're considering elk management because. That's been

1404
01:32:46,210 --> 01:32:50,692
a real issue with managing this hers. And I guess

1405
01:32:50,692 --> 01:32:54,012
I'll make a few other comments on John's presentation, which

1406
01:32:54,012 --> 01:32:56,732
you did a great job, John. One thing that I'll

1407
01:32:56,732 --> 01:33:00,754
touch on. We definitely support the use of center fire

1408
01:33:00,754 --> 01:33:04,394
rifles. Modern rifles. It's a more effective tool. You have

1409
01:33:04,394 --> 01:33:10,037
much. And boulder county. Has definitely proven the track record

1410
01:33:10,037 --> 01:33:15,808
of developing safe hunting programs. So by implementing modern rifles,

1411
01:33:15,808 --> 01:33:19,368
we'd reduce wounding loss, and then we'd also probably harvest

1412
01:33:19,368 --> 01:33:23,808
more elk and we'd get towards our management goal quicker

1413
01:33:23,808 --> 01:33:28,089
in that area. So we definitely support that. And right

1414
01:33:28,089 --> 01:33:30,049
now, as it stands with that subunit, so we have

1415
01:33:30,049 --> 01:33:33,929
this subunit where we CPW. Issue licenses to private landowners

1416
01:33:33,929 --> 01:33:36,049
that they can go by, that they don't have to

1417
01:33:36,049 --> 01:33:39,089
interact. With any of Boulder County's programs, and they're all

1418
01:33:39,089 --> 01:33:42,697
using rifles. And so right now, the only people that

1419
01:33:42,697 --> 01:33:46,897
aren't using center file rifles are older county hunters, so

1420
01:33:46,897 --> 01:33:50,466
they're a little bit restricted in that sense. It's kind

1421
01:33:50,466 --> 01:33:53,386
of on what you guys do as far as management

1422
01:33:53,386 --> 01:33:56,346
wise, but it's. A little bit tougher for Boulder county

1423
01:33:56,346 --> 01:33:59,106
hunters right now, and it's making it a little more

1424
01:33:59,106 --> 01:34:01,386
difficult for us to reach our objective as well, I

1425
01:34:01,386 --> 01:34:07,243
think. In addition to that, As John mentioned, antlerless harvest

1426
01:34:07,243 --> 01:34:10,963
is important, and it's the driver in population dynamics. Those

1427
01:34:10,963 --> 01:34:14,603
females produce the calves. But we also have large segments

1428
01:34:14,603 --> 01:34:17,603
of bulls that are moving around down. There. So bulls

1429
01:34:17,603 --> 01:34:19,843
are becoming a problem as far as damage in certain

1430
01:34:19,843 --> 01:34:24,500
areas as well. So. I guess my recommendation should be

1431
01:34:24,500 --> 01:34:28,970
not to limit yourself on just shooting. One six of

1432
01:34:28,970 --> 01:34:32,050
elk at this point, if punters have other opportunities, I

1433
01:34:32,050 --> 01:34:35,650
guess I wouldn't. Limit them in that aspect, especially because.

1434
01:34:36,916 --> 01:34:40,796
Ownership there. The county's ownership is kind of so parsed

1435
01:34:40,796 --> 01:34:43,716
there that hunters aren't. Always going to have an opportunity

1436
01:34:43,716 --> 01:34:46,516
to select what they want to harvest. It might be

1437
01:34:46,516 --> 01:34:49,036
that moment at that time. So that's kind of the

1438
01:34:49,036 --> 01:34:50,956
only thing you're able to touch on. So if you

1439
01:34:50,956 --> 01:34:53,316
guys have any other questions for me, any questions for

1440
01:34:53,316 --> 01:35:03,176
Ben? Yeah, Janet. Janet george. So the bowls. So where

1441
01:35:03,176 --> 01:35:06,256
are the bulls coming from? And I guess that rabbit

1442
01:35:06,256 --> 01:35:09,589
would be the main question because. If you're bringing. A

1443
01:35:09,589 --> 01:35:13,269
population down and calves are 50 50. Assume 50 50

1444
01:35:13,269 --> 01:35:16,589
bulls, you have less cows, less calves. You ought to

1445
01:35:16,589 --> 01:35:18,829
be having less bowls. Eventually there'll be a bit of

1446
01:35:18,829 --> 01:35:22,069
a lag. Time. So have you done a model on

1447
01:35:22,069 --> 01:35:25,483
that and know where the bulls are coming from? We

1448
01:35:25,483 --> 01:35:27,403
haven't done a model like at that scale. We have

1449
01:35:27,403 --> 01:35:33,361
our larger population models as you know? And. Our bull

1450
01:35:33,361 --> 01:35:36,441
towel ratio is declining, like because of a rabbit and

1451
01:35:36,441 --> 01:35:40,726
red hill. It is declining for sure. But one thing

1452
01:35:40,726 --> 01:35:44,406
that I've observed, and starting with raddat years ago, like

1453
01:35:44,406 --> 01:35:47,366
in the early 2000s is, you know, there weren't many

1454
01:35:47,366 --> 01:35:50,166
cows that were there initially. It was just bulls. Like,

1455
01:35:50,166 --> 01:35:53,745
there were those bull groups, and so. I think bulls

1456
01:35:53,745 --> 01:35:58,985
aren't as dependent on high quality nutrition or security areas

1457
01:35:58,985 --> 01:36:01,145
during the winter. A bull can kind of go where

1458
01:36:01,145 --> 01:36:02,545
it wants to go when it has a group of,

1459
01:36:02,545 --> 01:36:05,065
like, three buddies, so they'll kind of go where they

1460
01:36:05,065 --> 01:36:06,905
can get the best food or they get hassle the

1461
01:36:06,905 --> 01:36:09,945
less and kind of show up in these areas, like

1462
01:36:09,945 --> 01:36:13,939
these agriculture areas, like. Corn, for example. So you're right.

1463
01:36:13,939 --> 01:36:17,499
I think eventually poll numbers will decrease. But what we're

1464
01:36:17,499 --> 01:36:24,372
seeing now. And. I would say throughout this part of

1465
01:36:24,372 --> 01:36:26,692
GMU 20, which is the game management unit that Boulder

1466
01:36:26,692 --> 01:36:32,427
county is within. I would say we've seen these larger

1467
01:36:32,427 --> 01:36:35,067
bull groups are definitely making a shift into more urban

1468
01:36:35,067 --> 01:36:39,147
areas or agriculture interface areas where I think they're getting

1469
01:36:39,147 --> 01:36:43,267
refuge from hunting pressure. So our hunting. Bull hunting systems

1470
01:36:43,267 --> 01:36:45,507
go late into the winter, later than our cows or

1471
01:36:45,507 --> 01:36:47,547
as later as our cow seasons, so I think a

1472
01:36:47,547 --> 01:36:50,083
lot of those bulls are actually getting pressured. And our

1473
01:36:50,083 --> 01:36:53,658
bowl numbers are getting low enough. Now, where. I think

1474
01:36:53,658 --> 01:36:55,938
they're shifting farther to the east, and hunters are having

1475
01:36:55,938 --> 01:36:59,338
a harder time harvesting. Bowls. And that's all speculative right

1476
01:36:59,338 --> 01:37:01,538
now. I mean, I haven't developed any population. Models or

1477
01:37:01,538 --> 01:37:04,698
anything on that for specific to rabbit mountain or Red

1478
01:37:04,698 --> 01:37:10,615
Hill. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Thanks, Ben. Yeah. Other

1479
01:37:10,615 --> 01:37:15,978
questions. Okay. Thank you both very much. Great presentation, Ben.

1480
01:37:15,978 --> 01:37:19,604
Thank you for coming in. Thank you. Do we have

1481
01:37:19,604 --> 01:37:23,684
any questions or comments from folks here in the audience,

1482
01:37:23,684 --> 01:37:28,058
please come up and identify. Yourself. And we'd love to

1483
01:37:28,058 --> 01:37:31,597
hear your comments. Is it three minutes. It is.

1484
01:37:41,899 --> 01:37:47,765
Amy Strombotney. Eight five oh. Court in unincorporated Boulder County.

1485
01:37:49,470 --> 01:37:53,190
Rabbit mountain was supposed to have 30 to 70 elk.

1486
01:37:56,451 --> 01:38:00,411
On Rabbit Mountain. There are zero now. That means that

1487
01:38:00,411 --> 01:38:06,787
there was over. Overhunting, over hunting, which is mismanagement errors.

1488
01:38:08,510 --> 01:38:11,870
I think that Boulder county should be even more supervised

1489
01:38:11,870 --> 01:38:17,131
now and come to you more. Not be given. A

1490
01:38:17,131 --> 01:38:19,691
three year buy your leaves, they don't even have to

1491
01:38:19,691 --> 01:38:25,631
come back to you. To discuss. Ongoing issues. They should

1492
01:38:25,631 --> 01:38:29,415
come to you every year. They should absolutely come to

1493
01:38:29,415 --> 01:38:33,946
you if they want to start. Rifle hunting. This is

1494
01:38:33,946 --> 01:38:38,146
not a time for you who are representatives of the

1495
01:38:38,146 --> 01:38:44,272
public. To be not giving. Public input. It's a really

1496
01:38:44,272 --> 01:38:48,112
important time. We have no elk there. Elk may show

1497
01:38:48,112 --> 01:38:52,085
up. What is the number that we want to keep

1498
01:38:52,085 --> 01:38:57,406
now? Are we going to start shooting rifles? In red

1499
01:38:57,406 --> 01:39:02,130
hill. This is not a time for you guys to

1500
01:39:02,130 --> 01:39:07,338
give them a three week, three year leave. I don't

1501
01:39:07,338 --> 01:39:15,808
believe that rifles are safe. I was in my home

1502
01:39:15,808 --> 01:39:22,138
and. A bullet slammed through my bedroom wall. My neighbor

1503
01:39:22,138 --> 01:39:29,393
was outside. And. A bullet whistled past his head. Rifles

1504
01:39:29,393 --> 01:39:35,890
are dangerous. A stray bullet can go a mile. Boulder

1505
01:39:35,890 --> 01:39:44,903
county. This area. Is open range land.

1506
01:39:46,337 --> 01:39:51,657
There are guns out there, and there always have been.

1507
01:39:51,657 --> 01:39:58,855
But Boulder county should have a higher standard. Than everyone

1508
01:39:58,855 --> 01:40:04,856
else. We don't want bullets. Flying out of Boulder county

1509
01:40:04,856 --> 01:40:09,872
and killing somebody. Who's on their property or on the

1510
01:40:09,872 --> 01:40:13,832
road or hiking in the woods. Boulder county it seems

1511
01:40:13,832 --> 01:40:19,302
like this is getting more and more. Normalized first. It's

1512
01:40:19,302 --> 01:40:23,782
all these rules. Then maybe we'll take ElK. Then let's

1513
01:40:23,782 --> 01:40:31,368
just have rifles everywhere. There's more and more. Just. Standard

1514
01:40:31,368 --> 01:40:37,037
as is. Boulder county should have a higher standard. Than

1515
01:40:37,037 --> 01:40:40,477
everyone else. Thank you. Thank you very much for your

1516
01:40:40,477 --> 01:40:45,082
comments. Anybody else in the audience? Nick, do we have

1517
01:40:45,082 --> 01:40:48,305
anybody online? I'll give a chance for those on the

1518
01:40:48,305 --> 01:40:51,105
zoom webinar, if you would like. To make comment. We

1519
01:40:51,105 --> 01:40:54,185
got Michael Moss here. Michael, I'm going to allow you

1520
01:40:54,185 --> 01:41:02,021
to speak. Welcome, Michael. We'd love to hear your comments.

1521
01:41:03,473 --> 01:41:10,123
Thank you very much. Michael Moss with Kelsey Farm. I'm

1522
01:41:10,123 --> 01:41:13,483
really grateful for the presentation and all the work the

1523
01:41:13,483 --> 01:41:19,016
county has been doing. To manage. Located at the corner

1524
01:41:19,016 --> 01:41:26,300
of Oxford and the diagonal. And we've had a fair

1525
01:41:26,300 --> 01:41:31,320
amount of elk interaction over the last few years. And

1526
01:41:31,320 --> 01:41:35,659
especially this winter. There's been a rather large herd and

1527
01:41:35,659 --> 01:41:40,539
at times it looked like it's 50. To 70 cows

1528
01:41:40,539 --> 01:41:46,865
and bulls that have been migrating through. Properties in my

1529
01:41:46,865 --> 01:41:52,761
area all the way. To Highway 36 in Red Hill.

1530
01:41:52,761 --> 01:41:55,761
So this is a really large herd that's moving through.

1531
01:41:55,761 --> 01:42:01,076
Doing a lot of damage. To my property and private

1532
01:42:01,076 --> 01:42:06,375
farms throughout the area. And I'm not sure if this

1533
01:42:06,375 --> 01:42:11,090
is an impact of pressure being put on. The populations

1534
01:42:11,090 --> 01:42:16,038
at Red Hill, and they're moving to safer locations. It

1535
01:42:16,038 --> 01:42:19,558
just seems like it's a problem in our area that.

1536
01:42:21,254 --> 01:42:25,911
Is definitely growing rapidly. And I hope that. As we

1537
01:42:25,911 --> 01:42:32,143
look at managing the elk. In these hilly, mountainous areas

1538
01:42:32,143 --> 01:42:36,300
that we also focus on. What a possible plan could

1539
01:42:36,300 --> 01:42:40,860
be to manage the herds in this rural urban interface.

1540
01:42:43,802 --> 01:42:49,824
I have seen. Carcass or kills on the diagonal right

1541
01:42:49,824 --> 01:42:55,460
by my farm. And. I just think this issue. Is

1542
01:42:55,460 --> 01:42:58,220
definitely starting to ramp up more, and we've spent a

1543
01:42:58,220 --> 01:43:00,580
lot of time and money on our farm, trying to

1544
01:43:00,580 --> 01:43:05,140
protect our crops, working with Joe Padilla, spraying plants, skid.

1545
01:43:07,389 --> 01:43:11,023
Harassing whenever we see the herds. And at times it's

1546
01:43:11,023 --> 01:43:15,411
effective, but it's a high cost for our operation. That

1547
01:43:15,411 --> 01:43:19,915
has a very thin margin. And the herd can come

1548
01:43:19,915 --> 01:43:24,184
through and do thousands of dollars of damage. In any

1549
01:43:24,184 --> 01:43:29,972
given night. So I'd really appreciate more focus on. This

1550
01:43:29,972 --> 01:43:34,208
urban interface herd. Thank you very much. Thank you, Michael.

1551
01:43:34,208 --> 01:43:38,933
Appreciate your comments, Nick. Anyone else online? I'm not seeing

1552
01:43:38,933 --> 01:43:44,012
any more hand raised. Great. I'd actually love to hear

1553
01:43:44,012 --> 01:43:49,621
a little bit about that. Urban interface because. The question

1554
01:43:49,621 --> 01:43:52,661
I left your presentation with was like, where are they

1555
01:43:52,661 --> 01:43:57,338
going? You're not killing them all. Where are they going?

1556
01:43:57,338 --> 01:44:00,218
And are we causing other people more problems? Well, kilt

1557
01:44:00,218 --> 01:44:03,058
farm is a perfect example of this herd moving further

1558
01:44:03,058 --> 01:44:07,474
and further east. I mean, they've hit the diagonal. That's

1559
01:44:07,474 --> 01:44:10,854
a relatively new development. They've crossed the diagonal. A lot

1560
01:44:10,854 --> 01:44:13,934
of that $36,000 is being paid out. Is from the

1561
01:44:13,934 --> 01:44:18,177
east side of diagonal highway. The elk removing through Table

1562
01:44:18,177 --> 01:44:21,857
Mountain. South off the Table Mountain, they go along haystack

1563
01:44:21,857 --> 01:44:24,177
into some of our ag properties. Those properties, there are

1564
01:44:24,177 --> 01:44:26,017
some of the ones that we can actually send. Hunters

1565
01:44:26,017 --> 01:44:29,137
to when the elk are getting into the haystacks, and

1566
01:44:29,137 --> 01:44:31,986
it works really well. We got a hunter out there.

1567
01:44:31,986 --> 01:44:34,746
If there's a harvest, the elk are usually gone for.

1568
01:44:34,746 --> 01:44:37,826
Five days to a week, but it's moving them around,

1569
01:44:37,826 --> 01:44:41,146
and Kilt Farm is really close to the properties I'm

1570
01:44:41,146 --> 01:44:45,847
mentioning. Kilt farms, a difficult property for us to send

1571
01:44:45,847 --> 01:44:49,047
hunters or use lethal control because it's right on the

1572
01:44:49,047 --> 01:44:53,233
diagonal. Some of these properties. We're really limited because of

1573
01:44:53,233 --> 01:44:58,154
safety where we can actually implement using. Firearms to deal

1574
01:44:58,154 --> 01:45:03,446
with it. But that's where working with Joe Padilla, really,

1575
01:45:03,446 --> 01:45:05,806
because he can work with the private landowners and he

1576
01:45:05,806 --> 01:45:07,966
can say, well, the county is doing this here we

1577
01:45:07,966 --> 01:45:10,646
have hunters here. We can put vouchers here that they

1578
01:45:10,646 --> 01:45:13,406
can use to help deal with the tenants. That'll move

1579
01:45:13,406 --> 01:45:15,526
the elk off onto the private land, and then he

1580
01:45:15,526 --> 01:45:18,006
can work with private landowners that may have enough property

1581
01:45:18,006 --> 01:45:20,569
where you can safely shoot and he'll work. With them.

1582
01:45:20,569 --> 01:45:24,845
He can also provide pyrotechnics and other hazing methods. If

1583
01:45:24,845 --> 01:45:27,525
we deem the rifle, he deems rifle or shotgun. Hunting

1584
01:45:27,525 --> 01:45:30,605
isn't safe. They use cracker shells. They use all sorts

1585
01:45:30,605 --> 01:45:33,445
of other means to try to haze them. They're. Less

1586
01:45:33,445 --> 01:45:37,005
effective, but it's an arsenal that we kind of deploy.

1587
01:45:38,560 --> 01:45:45,063
As the situation allows. Thanks. Okay, I think. You would

1588
01:45:45,063 --> 01:45:47,983
like a recommendation from PosAc to the board of county

1589
01:45:47,983 --> 01:45:53,215
commissioners. I'm not going to read. This entirety of it,

1590
01:45:53,215 --> 01:45:58,174
but essentially, and correct me if I'm wrong, John. You're

1591
01:45:58,174 --> 01:46:03,454
looking for us to approve extending the Red Hill Elk

1592
01:46:03,454 --> 01:46:09,763
management plan through 27 28. Season. Same. For rabbit mountain.

1593
01:46:11,411 --> 01:46:13,211
With the exception on Rabbit Mountain that you're not looking

1594
01:46:13,211 --> 01:46:18,059
at active hunting. Yes. And for Red Hill. You have

1595
01:46:18,059 --> 01:46:25,157
the recommendation that trace noted, which. Is. A process to

1596
01:46:25,157 --> 01:46:29,077
decide whether you're going to use rifles. Is that correct?

1597
01:46:29,077 --> 01:46:37,212
Correct. I'm still a little fuzzy on that because. It's

1598
01:46:37,212 --> 01:46:39,252
not quite clear to me if you guys want to

1599
01:46:39,252 --> 01:46:43,157
develop. A recommendation and come back to POSeC that we

1600
01:46:43,157 --> 01:46:46,957
help provide a recommendation to the board of county commissioners

1601
01:46:46,957 --> 01:46:50,224
or if you want us to approve this plan. And

1602
01:46:50,224 --> 01:46:55,292
you would go directly to the board. Yeah, I take

1603
01:46:55,292 --> 01:47:03,947
your point. Ultimately. We recognize that. Rifles. Is one of

1604
01:47:03,947 --> 01:47:05,907
the concessions we made with the Red Hill program was

1605
01:47:05,907 --> 01:47:10,831
to use short range weapons. Because of the concern. And

1606
01:47:10,831 --> 01:47:16,395
I'm happy continuing status quo. If that's. What the recommendation

1607
01:47:16,395 --> 01:47:18,635
is. We can still use shotguns, we can still use

1608
01:47:18,635 --> 01:47:22,075
muzzle loaders and we're happy to do that. We would

1609
01:47:22,075 --> 01:47:23,915
prefer to use rifles. I would like to bring that

1610
01:47:23,915 --> 01:47:26,635
to the commissioners and see if they would approve using

1611
01:47:26,635 --> 01:47:33,781
rifles. When we do that, bring public comment. Into that

1612
01:47:33,781 --> 01:47:37,576
discussion. If it's ultimately deemed by the commissioners that rifles

1613
01:47:37,576 --> 01:47:42,212
know, that's too far to go with this program. We're

1614
01:47:42,212 --> 01:47:44,772
very content with remaining with the short range shocking and

1615
01:47:44,772 --> 01:47:47,612
muzzle loader, but ultimately we want to be as successful

1616
01:47:47,612 --> 01:47:51,092
as we can, and if the goal is ultimately to

1617
01:47:51,092 --> 01:47:54,292
limit or stop hunting on open space. This may help

1618
01:47:54,292 --> 01:47:56,652
us achieve that a lot more quickly. Yeah, I'm in

1619
01:47:56,652 --> 01:47:59,532
agreement with you. I think it would be worth coming

1620
01:47:59,532 --> 01:48:03,822
back to Poseac with. A recommendation. Show the public input

1621
01:48:03,822 --> 01:48:06,302
you've had. Let us hear that and let us help.

1622
01:48:06,302 --> 01:48:09,376
You make that recommendation to the board? So I think

1623
01:48:09,376 --> 01:48:12,982
that would be of value. And I think the way

1624
01:48:12,982 --> 01:48:18,265
this is written, Kind of suggests that. So it allows

1625
01:48:18,265 --> 01:48:21,865
the current hunting on Red Hill you can come back

1626
01:48:21,865 --> 01:48:25,113
to us at any point in time. Having gathered public

1627
01:48:25,113 --> 01:48:28,033
input, show us a plan for what you'd like to

1628
01:48:28,033 --> 01:48:31,634
do and. We'd love to take that, ask you questions

1629
01:48:31,634 --> 01:48:33,794
and hopefully then make a recommendation to the board of

1630
01:48:33,794 --> 01:48:37,114
county commissioners on that piece. Sounds great. Does that sound

1631
01:48:37,114 --> 01:48:43,293
good? Yes. So a question is, what's the timeline on

1632
01:48:43,293 --> 01:48:48,342
this? It's coming back to us. Rule out using center

1633
01:48:48,342 --> 01:48:52,601
fire rifles for the next year. Or is there enough

1634
01:48:52,601 --> 01:48:54,761
time to do that? I would hope there'd be enough

1635
01:48:54,761 --> 01:48:57,521
time to. Explore it for this year because we wouldn't

1636
01:48:57,521 --> 01:49:02,550
be doing any of. The actual proficient. We want it

1637
01:49:02,550 --> 01:49:05,030
in place before we're doing proficiency testing and things like

1638
01:49:05,030 --> 01:49:08,746
that, and that wouldn't be happening until the summer. Key

1639
01:49:08,746 --> 01:49:12,782
question. Janet. Carol, you look massively confused. No. For once,

1640
01:49:12,782 --> 01:49:17,816
I'm not confused, Carol. So I would suggest. A motion

1641
01:49:17,816 --> 01:49:24,567
where we approve this proposal as presented. But also asking

1642
01:49:24,567 --> 01:49:29,487
that they come back to POSAC with the recommendations regarding.

1643
01:49:30,431 --> 01:49:34,568
The rifle use of rifles. And make that explicit in

1644
01:49:34,568 --> 01:49:39,091
our motion. That was. I was suggesting that. But you

1645
01:49:39,091 --> 01:49:43,447
didn't say it. Okay. Thank you, Carol, for clarifying that.

1646
01:49:45,142 --> 01:49:50,841
I think that's the motion, then. Okay. Is there a

1647
01:49:50,841 --> 01:49:55,338
second? Then we'll do some questions. Great. Now, questions on

1648
01:49:55,338 --> 01:49:58,893
the motion. Does it make sense? Trace. Yes, a trace.

1649
01:49:58,893 --> 01:50:08,265
Baker postac. Just for clarification. We are not approving. The

1650
01:50:08,265 --> 01:50:13,575
use of rifles. Correct. But we are requiring. That staff

1651
01:50:13,575 --> 01:50:19,582
come back. With. A plan, proposal, whatever you want to

1652
01:50:19,582 --> 01:50:25,744
call it. About whether or not. To allow rifles in

1653
01:50:25,744 --> 01:50:29,941
that unit, correct? With evidence of public input as well.

1654
01:50:29,941 --> 01:50:33,341
Right. And reiterate, I think it was Christine who mentioned.

1655
01:50:35,576 --> 01:50:38,940
That to make sure we really do. Get the public

1656
01:50:38,940 --> 01:50:43,449
input. And avoid problems that we've had with another several

1657
01:50:43,449 --> 01:50:48,220
other issues last year. Yeah, we're happy to do that.

1658
01:50:48,220 --> 01:50:49,780
And I do also just want to point out that.

1659
01:50:51,233 --> 01:50:52,993
We did kind of plan for this in our management

1660
01:50:52,993 --> 01:50:55,473
plan that we would revisit this. If we deem that

1661
01:50:55,473 --> 01:50:59,492
that was a necessary change. We'd be happy to get

1662
01:50:59,492 --> 01:51:03,028
more public information. Thank you. Any other questions on this?

1663
01:51:03,028 --> 01:51:06,468
Derek, I have a question that kind of came up

1664
01:51:06,468 --> 01:51:10,343
through some of the public comments. Looking at the original

1665
01:51:10,343 --> 01:51:13,823
plan, and I guess I don't see kind of a

1666
01:51:13,823 --> 01:51:18,773
red lined amended plan that you're proposing. That the county

1667
01:51:18,773 --> 01:51:20,893
commissioners adopt, and maybe that will be part of your

1668
01:51:20,893 --> 01:51:24,894
presentation to them. It sounds like this is just going

1669
01:51:24,894 --> 01:51:27,934
to be continued and the dates updated. Yes, in that

1670
01:51:27,934 --> 01:51:34,659
original plan. You have annual public meetings. Weekly emails to

1671
01:51:34,659 --> 01:51:39,626
county commissioners. That was changed with the last reauthorization process.

1672
01:51:41,208 --> 01:51:46,104
In the plan. What is? The public. Kind of communication

1673
01:51:46,104 --> 01:51:50,836
and reporting to the county commissioners. I send three updates

1674
01:51:50,836 --> 01:51:56,447
a year to them throughout the season. And then. We

1675
01:51:56,447 --> 01:52:01,758
put out information on our public. Engagement platforms with the

1676
01:52:01,758 --> 01:52:05,798
county. We were doing public meetings up until three years

1677
01:52:05,798 --> 01:52:08,798
ago, and we really didn't have people coming. We had

1678
01:52:08,798 --> 01:52:11,998
more staff than actual people at the events. We also

1679
01:52:11,998 --> 01:52:15,438
weren't getting a lot of public comment throughout the season.

1680
01:52:15,438 --> 01:52:17,198
We weren't getting a lot of people calling up and

1681
01:52:17,198 --> 01:52:20,559
complaining. And so we haven't been doing a lot of

1682
01:52:20,559 --> 01:52:23,039
the public outreach because, like I said, we weren't getting

1683
01:52:23,039 --> 01:52:24,919
a lot of feedback when we were trying to engage

1684
01:52:24,919 --> 01:52:29,385
with the public. That makes sense. And I guess I

1685
01:52:29,385 --> 01:52:32,337
think it would be good to update. The language of

1686
01:52:32,337 --> 01:52:35,697
the plan that's clearly kind of describes if there are

1687
01:52:35,697 --> 01:52:38,737
any commitments to public engagement for the next three years.

1688
01:52:38,737 --> 01:52:43,297
Great. Yeah, great point, Derek. So, clarity of plan presented

1689
01:52:43,297 --> 01:52:45,817
to the board of county commissioners would be good. Okay.

1690
01:52:45,817 --> 01:52:49,772
Any other questions on the resolution? Okay, seeing none. All

1691
01:52:49,772 --> 01:52:57,191
in favor? Aye. We are recommending your proposal. Thank you.

1692
01:52:57,191 --> 01:53:02,673
Thank you very much, John. Thank you. Thanks, Ben. Okay.

1693
01:53:07,402 --> 01:53:12,331
Moving right along. We now have public comment, period for

1694
01:53:12,331 --> 01:53:18,098
items not on the agenda. And we'll start here with

1695
01:53:18,098 --> 01:53:21,418
in person. Let me think if it might be Cindy

1696
01:53:21,418 --> 01:53:26,415
Johnson. Come on up. Feel like a game show host.

1697
01:53:30,032 --> 01:53:36,675
Thanks for coming out. Yes, thank you. Cindy Johnson, east

1698
01:53:36,675 --> 01:53:41,235
Boulder county resident, appeared before you several times now. Thank

1699
01:53:41,235 --> 01:53:44,595
you for your continued support. To value, respect and support

1700
01:53:44,595 --> 01:53:48,635
all individuals as you serve the people of Boulder county.

1701
01:53:48,635 --> 01:53:50,875
We know this is a volunteer position for all of

1702
01:53:50,875 --> 01:53:55,663
you. And we are grateful for your service. So once

1703
01:53:55,663 --> 01:53:59,133
again, thanks for this opportunity. To come before you and

1704
01:53:59,133 --> 01:54:02,978
speak again. At the last meeting, we had 30 people

1705
01:54:02,978 --> 01:54:05,578
show up in cowboy hats to object to the cancellation.

1706
01:54:05,578 --> 01:54:08,658
Of open rides on Wednesdays in the winter at the

1707
01:54:08,658 --> 01:54:14,490
fairgrounds indoor arena. Over the last seven months, we have

1708
01:54:14,490 --> 01:54:18,130
had over 150 people show their support and encouragement. To

1709
01:54:18,130 --> 01:54:22,850
emphasize that recreational users such as pickleball, ultimate frisbee and

1710
01:54:22,850 --> 01:54:27,530
drone flying have other options. For their activities, whereas horses

1711
01:54:27,530 --> 01:54:32,588
only have one public indoor riding. Arena built for this

1712
01:54:32,588 --> 01:54:36,715
specific reason 30 years ago. We have not been given

1713
01:54:36,715 --> 01:54:41,995
any reasonable explanation why it was closed and sitting idle

1714
01:54:41,995 --> 01:54:47,809
all winter. In response to our last meeting with you.

1715
01:54:48,960 --> 01:54:52,960
Posak. Supported six to one. The concept of convening a

1716
01:54:52,960 --> 01:54:57,992
work session to formulate a recommendation. To the Boulder county

1717
01:54:57,992 --> 01:55:02,432
commissioners to reconsider reinstating open rides on Wednesdays in the

1718
01:55:02,432 --> 01:55:06,282
winter. And it's our understanding that you have the right

1719
01:55:06,282 --> 01:55:09,842
to make a recommendation to the county. Commissioners and for

1720
01:55:09,842 --> 01:55:14,563
them to make a decision on how to proceed. Apparently.

1721
01:55:16,075 --> 01:55:20,708
The Boulder county commissioners. Are resisting taking the issue back

1722
01:55:20,708 --> 01:55:24,643
up. We are a group of people who never complain

1723
01:55:24,643 --> 01:55:29,930
without a solution. So how about this solution? Instead of

1724
01:55:29,930 --> 01:55:33,690
asking them to reopen public writing, could you ask them

1725
01:55:33,690 --> 01:55:38,410
to recommend to the Boulder county commissioners to revisit the

1726
01:55:38,410 --> 01:55:43,846
issue and take more public comment. We are extending the

1727
01:55:43,846 --> 01:55:47,557
olive branch with this new solution. We are the only

1728
01:55:47,557 --> 01:55:50,677
group that has consistently objected to the change in the

1729
01:55:50,677 --> 01:55:55,037
indoor arena policy and no other groups are coming forward,

1730
01:55:55,037 --> 01:55:57,477
and to our knowledge, no one is using the arena

1731
01:55:57,477 --> 01:56:00,929
during the winter months. We will take it up with

1732
01:56:00,929 --> 01:56:04,609
the Boulder county commissioners, but we need to be able

1733
01:56:04,609 --> 01:56:09,754
to point to the progress. And participation that occurred here

1734
01:56:09,754 --> 01:56:13,390
before. Parks and open Space advisory committee, all of you.

1735
01:56:15,187 --> 01:56:18,775
This is where we need your help, please. Will you

1736
01:56:18,775 --> 01:56:22,375
please vote tonight to recommend that tHe BouldEr COunty cOMmissioneRS

1737
01:56:22,375 --> 01:56:27,335
revisit this issue and take more public comment. Thank you.

1738
01:56:27,335 --> 01:56:31,035
Thank you, Cindy. You're welcome. Anybody else in the audience.

1739
01:56:33,071 --> 01:56:38,974
Nick, is Michael still on? No, Michael jumped off. I

1740
01:56:38,974 --> 01:56:44,549
don't see any other hands raised for people online. Okay,

1741
01:56:44,549 --> 01:56:50,093
great. We're done with items not on the agenda. Postac

1742
01:56:50,093 --> 01:56:54,995
members comment period for items not on the agenda. Postac.

1743
01:56:57,757 --> 01:57:00,917
And I would like to thank Tony for the personal

1744
01:57:00,917 --> 01:57:06,635
time he's taken. To try to elevate. The open riding

1745
01:57:06,635 --> 01:57:12,750
sessions. Both here in the meetings and also. On his

1746
01:57:12,750 --> 01:57:19,807
own. And perhaps. He can address Cindy's comments. With what

1747
01:57:19,807 --> 01:57:23,087
he's learned. But I do thank you, Tony. That's nice.

1748
01:57:23,087 --> 01:57:25,727
Thank you. Trace. I appreciate it. I'm happy to do

1749
01:57:25,727 --> 01:57:30,248
that. Other thoughts or questions or comments on let's stick

1750
01:57:30,248 --> 01:57:34,128
to open writing for the moment. Since that's a topic

1751
01:57:34,128 --> 01:57:37,591
of interest. Christine Johnson. I just wanted to know that.

1752
01:57:39,091 --> 01:57:45,091
There continue to be written comments supporting it. Thank you

1753
01:57:45,091 --> 01:57:48,961
for noting that. So here's kind of where I'm at.

1754
01:57:50,555 --> 01:57:56,349
Given public input, talking to staff. And thinking through this

1755
01:57:56,349 --> 01:58:04,691
issue. The county commissioners voted to. Change. They voted to

1756
01:58:04,691 --> 01:58:07,291
approve the recommendations for the use of the fairgrounds as

1757
01:58:07,291 --> 01:58:11,451
presented by parks. And open space staff. They did that

1758
01:58:11,451 --> 01:58:16,265
after. We also voted to recommend that to them. And

1759
01:58:16,265 --> 01:58:18,345
I am getting the distinct impression from the port of

1760
01:58:18,345 --> 01:58:22,345
county commissioners that they feel like they've decided this issue.

1761
01:58:24,213 --> 01:58:26,853
I don't think they're super interested in us having a

1762
01:58:26,853 --> 01:58:31,528
work session. I don't know if they're super interested in

1763
01:58:31,528 --> 01:58:37,510
having. Us push them to change their recommend. Recommendation, but

1764
01:58:37,510 --> 01:58:42,348
I appreciate Cindy's comment and thought. To me for the

1765
01:58:42,348 --> 01:58:49,573
open writing piece of this, I am pretty comfortable. Having

1766
01:58:49,573 --> 01:58:56,058
a vote, depending on. Your appetite for a vote. To

1767
01:58:56,058 --> 01:59:00,020
recommend to the board of county commissioners. That they revisit

1768
01:59:00,020 --> 01:59:04,154
the issue and take more public comment on it. It's

1769
01:59:04,154 --> 01:59:08,194
different than recommending they change their minds. It's different than

1770
01:59:08,194 --> 01:59:12,941
recommending a certain course of action. It is a recommendation

1771
01:59:12,941 --> 01:59:15,621
to revisit the issue and take more public comment on

1772
01:59:15,621 --> 01:59:23,419
it. Secondly. And tangentially. We had a discussion at the

1773
01:59:23,419 --> 01:59:27,366
retreat. That touches on this because I think some of

1774
01:59:27,366 --> 01:59:30,816
the concern we had. That I heard expressed from the

1775
01:59:30,816 --> 01:59:34,745
committee. Was around the gathering of public input on this

1776
01:59:34,745 --> 01:59:40,037
issue. Teresa and I had a brief conversation. My sense

1777
01:59:40,037 --> 01:59:45,082
is that. That public input could have been done better.

1778
01:59:45,082 --> 01:59:49,731
That's my personal opinion. I think staff felt like it

1779
01:59:49,731 --> 01:59:56,636
was appropriately done. And I think. The difficulty lies therein

1780
01:59:56,636 --> 02:00:00,276
in understanding what the process is for gathering public input.

1781
02:00:01,700 --> 02:00:05,524
And ensuring that. It's robust and complete. To represent all

1782
02:00:05,524 --> 02:00:11,540
the stakeholders that people were contacted through various modes. Of

1783
02:00:11,540 --> 02:00:18,074
information. Various modes of media. And then fully incorporated all

1784
02:00:18,074 --> 02:00:22,060
the input. Given to us as a recommendation. And I

1785
02:00:22,060 --> 02:00:26,460
think several committee members had questions about how robust that

1786
02:00:26,460 --> 02:00:32,927
process was. So my other recommendation is to. Task parks

1787
02:00:32,927 --> 02:00:38,400
and open space staff with developing. A public input process.

1788
02:00:39,764 --> 02:00:44,646
That would broadly apply to issues of concern. And really

1789
02:00:44,646 --> 02:00:49,633
as a framework, right? It's a framework of how you

1790
02:00:49,633 --> 02:00:53,073
go about gathering public input and the modes and nodes.

1791
02:00:53,073 --> 02:00:56,169
Of how to do that. So that we can be

1792
02:00:56,169 --> 02:01:00,847
assured. That that process has been robust for these issues.

1793
02:01:02,437 --> 02:01:07,253
It's not do this X number of times or. It

1794
02:01:07,253 --> 02:01:10,893
is context specific by the issue, by the geography, but.

1795
02:01:12,119 --> 02:01:14,919
As a framework for how input would be gathered. So

1796
02:01:14,919 --> 02:01:18,439
those are my two recommendations. I would love some input

1797
02:01:18,439 --> 02:01:26,131
on both. Christine.

1798
02:01:30,143 --> 02:01:35,857
Christine Johnson all bite. I have a great deal of

1799
02:01:35,857 --> 02:01:44,943
respect for. The parks and open space staff. And. Their

1800
02:01:44,943 --> 02:01:54,668
expertise and. Their diligence. And. I don't think that. They

1801
02:01:54,668 --> 02:02:00,237
are infallible, and I think. That. Engaging the public and

1802
02:02:00,237 --> 02:02:02,957
engaging a broad swath of the public and engaging them

1803
02:02:02,957 --> 02:02:08,085
to the extent. That they wish to be engaged. Is

1804
02:02:08,085 --> 02:02:15,575
very challenging. And I think that it is worth. Revisiting

1805
02:02:15,575 --> 02:02:25,488
this, looking into. It. Beefing it up just because it

1806
02:02:25,488 --> 02:02:32,799
would save. If an improved process can be developed. It

1807
02:02:32,799 --> 02:02:36,623
would save staff time in the long run. It would

1808
02:02:36,623 --> 02:02:40,973
save us time in the long run because. It's hard

1809
02:02:40,973 --> 02:02:46,153
to. Have to revisit issues and. It costs time and

1810
02:02:46,153 --> 02:02:53,656
money. Its opportunity costs. So, yes, please. Thank you, Tony.

1811
02:02:53,656 --> 02:03:00,559
Yes, Carol. Carol Barley. I'm not real enthusiastic about this.

1812
02:03:07,812 --> 02:03:10,292
The buck stops with the county commissioners. And so this

1813
02:03:10,292 --> 02:03:13,092
is not the issue that I would be willing to

1814
02:03:13,092 --> 02:03:18,141
go back to them on. Writing. The open writing. Yes.

1815
02:03:19,776 --> 02:03:22,776
But it does also seem to me to be a

1816
02:03:22,776 --> 02:03:29,606
budget issue. Not only a communications issue. And when I've

1817
02:03:29,606 --> 02:03:32,046
been talking to people about it, because I have been

1818
02:03:32,046 --> 02:03:36,783
soliciting. Input. What do you do about this? And one

1819
02:03:36,783 --> 02:03:40,303
of the answers is that if it's a budget issue,

1820
02:03:40,303 --> 02:03:44,911
let's talk. About that. So that it's not an issue

1821
02:03:44,911 --> 02:03:53,532
of. The county subsidizing this particular. Activity. And so I'm

1822
02:03:53,532 --> 02:03:56,492
wondering, why not have this come up in the next

1823
02:03:56,492 --> 02:04:01,691
budget cycle? The winter is just about over. Seemed over

1824
02:04:01,691 --> 02:04:06,344
today. And so why not go through this in the

1825
02:04:06,344 --> 02:04:12,785
budget cycle and call it out specifically? And recommend that.

1826
02:04:14,696 --> 02:04:18,976
An effort may be made to make it more financially

1827
02:04:18,976 --> 02:04:23,543
viable. So that the commissioners don't feel like they're being

1828
02:04:23,543 --> 02:04:30,012
squeezed. And so that's kind of. What? I'm thinking if

1829
02:04:30,012 --> 02:04:35,180
we look at it more as a financial problem, Because

1830
02:04:35,180 --> 02:04:38,826
that's a budget problem. That's what their job is. To

1831
02:04:38,826 --> 02:04:44,775
weigh, how to spend the money and. It's not an

1832
02:04:44,775 --> 02:04:48,349
infinite amount of money. So that would be my preferred

1833
02:04:48,349 --> 02:04:51,829
approach, would be focus on the next budget cycle and

1834
02:04:51,829 --> 02:04:56,356
not go back and say, change your mind. So that's

1835
02:04:56,356 --> 02:05:03,448
my recommendation. I appreciate that. Thank you. I do want

1836
02:05:03,448 --> 02:05:06,916
to be clear. I would not be asking them to

1837
02:05:06,916 --> 02:05:11,630
change their mind. I'm asking them to revisit the issue

1838
02:05:11,630 --> 02:05:17,751
and perhaps collect more public input. Understood. But I would

1839
02:05:17,751 --> 02:05:22,597
wait for. The budget cycle and call it out and

1840
02:05:22,597 --> 02:05:25,797
be alert and say, okay, let's really focus. On this

1841
02:05:25,797 --> 02:05:28,200
particular issue. And make sure we get it right.

1842
02:05:34,931 --> 02:05:41,110
Appreciate that. Other thoughts, Janet? Yeah. So I don't know.

1843
02:05:42,456 --> 02:05:46,256
If I'm in agreement with going and saying, asking the

1844
02:05:46,256 --> 02:05:49,856
commissioners, recommending that they take more public input on this

1845
02:05:49,856 --> 02:05:54,000
one issue. But I have a question, and Teresa may

1846
02:05:54,000 --> 02:05:56,680
be the one to answer it. So my question I'm

1847
02:05:56,680 --> 02:06:00,720
thinking from having come from the state and working with

1848
02:06:00,720 --> 02:06:05,831
the wildlife commission. When constituents had a recommendation or wanted

1849
02:06:05,831 --> 02:06:08,791
to ask for something, there was a process for them

1850
02:06:08,791 --> 02:06:11,071
to do that. It was called the issue paper process.

1851
02:06:12,459 --> 02:06:15,339
Is there any process to actually bring this up again?

1852
02:06:17,023 --> 02:06:19,863
The constituents that want to ask for this. Do the

1853
02:06:19,863 --> 02:06:24,676
county commissioners have any kind of process like that. Please

1854
02:06:24,676 --> 02:06:29,362
join us. Sorry, Teresa. It's good.

1855
02:06:37,359 --> 02:06:43,799
Therese, director of parks and open space. The answer is

1856
02:06:43,799 --> 02:06:48,396
no. There is no formal process. Like the Wildlife Commission

1857
02:06:48,396 --> 02:06:52,233
has. It is up to them to choose what issues

1858
02:06:52,233 --> 02:06:58,524
they address. And through public comment. They can choose, okay?

1859
02:07:00,482 --> 02:07:03,961
This department. Go investigate this. I also want to just.

1860
02:07:04,794 --> 02:07:07,314
Give a little bit of insight into whether this would

1861
02:07:07,314 --> 02:07:11,714
ever rise to a decision that commissioners would be considering

1862
02:07:11,714 --> 02:07:17,072
through the budget process. Their budget is so enormous. $750,000,000.

1863
02:07:17,072 --> 02:07:26,815
And we're talking about. Trying to recoup the

1864
02:07:26,815 --> 02:07:29,895
12 hours at a fairground for 24 days of the

1865
02:07:29,895 --> 02:07:34,391
year. So as much as I appreciate that thought, that.

1866
02:07:36,191 --> 02:07:38,292
It is. It could be a budget issue. And I

1867
02:07:38,292 --> 02:07:41,052
think that Joe has said this, and I'll just reiterate,

1868
02:07:41,052 --> 02:07:44,392
it is not just a budget issue. And I want

1869
02:07:44,392 --> 02:07:48,489
to make clear that the indoor arena. Is used throughout

1870
02:07:48,489 --> 02:07:51,369
the winter. There are groups that rent it and use

1871
02:07:51,369 --> 02:07:58,111
it. Including. For each and weekend events. And what Joe

1872
02:07:58,111 --> 02:08:03,445
proposed, the reason he proposed. Not holding public sessions. One

1873
02:08:03,445 --> 02:08:05,605
is because they do not pay for themselves, and number

1874
02:08:05,605 --> 02:08:08,805
two is to give their staff time to work up

1875
02:08:08,805 --> 02:08:11,285
the arena so they are prepared for the large events

1876
02:08:11,285 --> 02:08:14,685
that come in during the weekends, and so the time

1877
02:08:14,685 --> 02:08:18,603
that. Is not blocked off for open rides is now

1878
02:08:18,603 --> 02:08:23,598
being used for maintenance. In the indoor arena. Hold that

1879
02:08:23,598 --> 02:08:25,758
thought for a moment. Heidi, I see you have your

1880
02:08:25,758 --> 02:08:28,675
hand up online. Would you like to weigh in on

1881
02:08:28,675 --> 02:08:34,436
this, too? Sure. Good evening. Hello. Pozak. Heidi Wagner, resource

1882
02:08:34,436 --> 02:08:37,716
planning division manager. Nice to be with you. I'm assuming

1883
02:08:37,716 --> 02:08:39,836
you can all hear me. We can. You sound great.

1884
02:08:41,782 --> 02:08:44,982
Great. So, Tony, I wanted to speak to the second

1885
02:08:44,982 --> 02:08:48,182
issue that you brought up. The first issue? I believe

1886
02:08:48,182 --> 02:08:52,062
was around the policy change, but the second issue was

1887
02:08:52,062 --> 02:08:57,659
around. How parks performs its outreach and engagement for different

1888
02:08:57,659 --> 02:09:02,743
topics. So I appreciate you elevating that topic and the

1889
02:09:02,743 --> 02:09:07,371
discourse. That the committee has had. So what I would

1890
02:09:07,371 --> 02:09:11,971
like to do is come back before Posac. In May

1891
02:09:11,971 --> 02:09:17,331
and outline our framework to you that we've established for

1892
02:09:17,331 --> 02:09:22,091
different types of plans and policies that have come before.

1893
02:09:23,154 --> 02:09:27,370
Posac. And just to clarify, depending on the work that

1894
02:09:27,370 --> 02:09:33,138
we're doing, It's everything from East Boulder Creek to weeds

1895
02:09:33,138 --> 02:09:37,418
to elk management and the type of outreach and engagement

1896
02:09:37,418 --> 02:09:41,098
that we prepare for those types of plans and policies

1897
02:09:41,098 --> 02:09:46,772
looks different. Depending on the scope of that work. And

1898
02:09:46,772 --> 02:09:51,783
you're right. I'm not remembering who said it earlier, but.

1899
02:09:54,202 --> 02:09:58,304
We can always grow. And sometimes. We don't understand. Maybe

1900
02:09:58,304 --> 02:10:04,246
the. Interest behind a planner policy until we're several months

1901
02:10:04,246 --> 02:10:08,446
into a process, and then we adapt. Accordingly, our hope

1902
02:10:08,446 --> 02:10:13,551
is that. We do the correct intensity of an outreach

1903
02:10:13,551 --> 02:10:18,143
and engagement, depending on that topic. And people find out

1904
02:10:18,143 --> 02:10:22,183
about it and contact us with their opinions, but we're

1905
02:10:22,183 --> 02:10:25,263
always looking. To get more engagement around all of our

1906
02:10:25,263 --> 02:10:29,103
issues, so I'm going to commit to coming. Back in

1907
02:10:29,103 --> 02:10:32,653
May to you all. With that information, and I look

1908
02:10:32,653 --> 02:10:36,653
forward to the conversation and happy to answer any questions

1909
02:10:36,653 --> 02:10:39,133
that you might have this evening as well. Thank you,

1910
02:10:39,133 --> 02:10:42,333
Heidi. That'd be great. I think it'd. Be really instructive

1911
02:10:42,333 --> 02:10:45,992
and helpful in that discussion. Because I think there are

1912
02:10:45,992 --> 02:10:48,992
ways to grow and to change, and it'd be great

1913
02:10:48,992 --> 02:10:52,844
to understand. How you guys do your work now. So

1914
02:10:52,844 --> 02:10:56,525
thank you for that offer. Great. Thank you. And I

1915
02:10:56,525 --> 02:10:58,405
just want two things I would like to point out.

1916
02:10:59,896 --> 02:11:04,558
Having heard the elk management presentation, I don't think any

1917
02:11:04,558 --> 02:11:07,438
of you are on. Janet was on the other side

1918
02:11:07,438 --> 02:11:10,038
of she was in the audience and sitting here as

1919
02:11:10,038 --> 02:11:15,647
a CPW and employee. When we did that process. I

1920
02:11:15,647 --> 02:11:17,327
just want to describe it for you so that you

1921
02:11:17,327 --> 02:11:21,639
understand. We did an online survey that people could self

1922
02:11:21,639 --> 02:11:23,439
select and go in and say, I like hunting. I

1923
02:11:23,439 --> 02:11:26,399
don't like hunting. We did a little information piece. Before

1924
02:11:26,399 --> 02:11:30,479
that, we did a telephone. Survey where we called residents

1925
02:11:30,479 --> 02:11:35,199
of Boulder county. Both of those had over 350 people

1926
02:11:35,199 --> 02:11:39,976
putting in comments. We did open houses at our parks

1927
02:11:39,976 --> 02:11:43,867
and open space building. We did flyers. We didn't do

1928
02:11:43,867 --> 02:11:49,192
Twitter because there wasn't Twitter back then. Anyway. It was

1929
02:11:49,192 --> 02:11:53,592
a very robust and engaged public process in order to

1930
02:11:53,592 --> 02:11:57,568
make that decision. And I've said this ten times. When

1931
02:11:57,568 --> 02:11:59,808
I first started working for parks and space. If anyone

1932
02:11:59,808 --> 02:12:02,048
ever told me that, we would have hunting on open

1933
02:12:02,048 --> 02:12:04,728
space. I would have said you are crazy, but when

1934
02:12:04,728 --> 02:12:07,848
we had a change in the ecosystem and the elk

1935
02:12:07,848 --> 02:12:10,968
population. And we brought it to the public and explained

1936
02:12:10,968 --> 02:12:13,928
it. They understood. And they supported it. Both of those

1937
02:12:13,928 --> 02:12:17,966
mechanisms for collecting public comment, in addition to. Many postac

1938
02:12:17,966 --> 02:12:24,351
hearings and county commissioner hearings. 75% approved 75% supported using

1939
02:12:24,351 --> 02:12:28,979
hunting. So just to say that it's not like we

1940
02:12:28,979 --> 02:12:31,699
have been sitting on our hands for the last 50

1941
02:12:31,699 --> 02:12:37,187
years, not engaging the public. And like Heidi said, putting

1942
02:12:37,187 --> 02:12:39,347
it in a framework like you guys have requested, I

1943
02:12:39,347 --> 02:12:41,587
think is the right thing to do now so that

1944
02:12:41,587 --> 02:12:45,509
it is clear for you. For the county commissioners, for

1945
02:12:45,509 --> 02:12:50,189
the public. How we go about gathering. I think John's

1946
02:12:50,189 --> 02:12:54,977
presentation today was a good example. Of having a framework

1947
02:12:54,977 --> 02:12:58,378
so that. We are all really clear what type of

1948
02:12:58,378 --> 02:13:04,086
public engagement we will pursue. Depending on the topic. Derek.

1949
02:13:04,086 --> 02:13:09,481
Derek turner. I'll vote for your motion. And I guess

1950
02:13:09,481 --> 02:13:14,443
I think you highlighted. What we feel like may not

1951
02:13:14,443 --> 02:13:17,483
have happened with the fairgrounds that you've done in some

1952
02:13:17,483 --> 02:13:22,428
other. With other plans that affect people. I do remember

1953
02:13:22,428 --> 02:13:27,048
that first meeting on the fairgrounds plan where. I think.

1954
02:13:29,412 --> 02:13:32,212
The staff were seeking a recommendation before the public meeting

1955
02:13:32,212 --> 02:13:35,845
had occurred, and we. Wanted to come back and what?

1956
02:13:37,442 --> 02:13:42,352
We've seen is. The considerable public comment that's come after

1957
02:13:42,352 --> 02:13:45,192
it, I am worried about the precedent it sets. That

1958
02:13:45,192 --> 02:13:49,152
if we ultimately can, citizens always just come back to

1959
02:13:49,152 --> 02:13:52,192
us and ask us to reconsider. The weed management plan

1960
02:13:52,192 --> 02:13:54,712
or the elk management plan because they didn't like the

1961
02:13:54,712 --> 02:14:01,453
county commissioner's decision. And. We can recommend whatever we want

1962
02:14:01,453 --> 02:14:05,670
to recommend. They don't have to listen to us. They

1963
02:14:05,670 --> 02:14:08,995
don't have to agree. And I think. That one thing

1964
02:14:08,995 --> 02:14:14,097
we specifically sent to them. On my time here. They

1965
02:14:14,097 --> 02:14:17,457
specifically told us not to actually ask them to do

1966
02:14:17,457 --> 02:14:23,081
anything about what we wanted them to. Do. So. That's

1967
02:14:23,081 --> 02:14:25,965
my perspective on. Our authority with the county commissioners. It

1968
02:14:25,965 --> 02:14:30,403
would be nice to interact with the county commissioners. I

1969
02:14:30,403 --> 02:14:34,200
shouldn't go too far here, but. In the two years

1970
02:14:34,200 --> 02:14:37,403
that I've been on the committee. We haven't had a

1971
02:14:37,403 --> 02:14:40,876
county commissioner attend a meeting. And hear about what we

1972
02:14:40,876 --> 02:14:43,633
do. So I don't know where I'm going to end

1973
02:14:43,633 --> 02:14:47,064
up here. But I think I do see this as

1974
02:14:47,064 --> 02:14:53,270
a unique. Thing. That we would be asking for. But

1975
02:14:53,270 --> 02:14:56,510
I also see the potential that this is something that

1976
02:14:56,510 --> 02:14:59,628
could happen. Anytime a group of citizens are affected by

1977
02:14:59,628 --> 02:15:02,028
a decision could come to us and take a lot

1978
02:15:02,028 --> 02:15:05,130
of our time. Thinking that we can do something about

1979
02:15:05,130 --> 02:15:11,275
it. When it's county commissioner's decision. And I appreciate everything

1980
02:15:11,275 --> 02:15:14,555
that she just said. Two things. Two more things, actually.

1981
02:15:14,555 --> 02:15:16,035
I never got to the second one when I said

1982
02:15:16,035 --> 02:15:19,715
I had to. There is an opportunity for public to

1983
02:15:19,715 --> 02:15:22,715
bring topics. Back to the county commissioners directly. They do

1984
02:15:22,715 --> 02:15:25,155
not have to go through you. And it is an.

1985
02:15:27,723 --> 02:15:30,723
Open public comment hearing and I don't know how often.

1986
02:15:30,723 --> 02:15:35,012
I'm sure it's. At least once a month. And so

1987
02:15:35,012 --> 02:15:37,972
the public who was here listening can go straight to

1988
02:15:37,972 --> 02:15:43,886
the county commissioners. If they feel. That that. If they

1989
02:15:43,886 --> 02:15:45,886
want their voice to be heard by the decision makers.

1990
02:15:47,720 --> 02:15:50,600
I would say as well that it is up to

1991
02:15:50,600 --> 02:15:54,680
the county commissioners to direct what their 37 advisory committees

1992
02:15:54,680 --> 02:15:59,133
do. And that if they give us direction, which may

1993
02:15:59,133 --> 02:16:04,753
be coming. That says we made our decision, move on

1994
02:16:04,753 --> 02:16:09,350
and concentrate on new things. Posek. That I would just

1995
02:16:09,350 --> 02:16:16,662
be prepared for that. That's fair. You had two things,

1996
02:16:16,662 --> 02:16:19,062
or is that both? One was they couldn't go straight

1997
02:16:19,062 --> 02:16:21,742
to the county commissioners through the public comment and the

1998
02:16:21,742 --> 02:16:24,662
county commissioners can direct. What pose act does you serve?

1999
02:16:24,662 --> 02:16:29,032
At the pleasure of the board, right? Other thoughts other

2000
02:16:29,032 --> 02:16:32,970
comments. All right. Where do you want to go in

2001
02:16:32,970 --> 02:16:40,936
this? Trace, Baker, Posack. I think at this point.

2002
02:16:45,980 --> 02:16:50,660
Both of your original questions are moot. Number one, going

2003
02:16:50,660 --> 02:16:54,500
to the commissioners and asking them to revisit the budget.

2004
02:16:56,074 --> 02:16:59,594
And number two, because Heidi volunteered to come and talk

2005
02:16:59,594 --> 02:17:07,623
about communications. I think tasking the staff. To create a

2006
02:17:07,623 --> 02:17:12,124
plan. Is also moot until after we hear from Heidi.

2007
02:17:12,124 --> 02:17:15,684
Yeah, I did hear trees say that. That sounds like

2008
02:17:15,684 --> 02:17:18,004
the right thing to do is to establish this framework,

2009
02:17:18,004 --> 02:17:23,224
and having Heidi's background would be super helpful. In the

2010
02:17:23,224 --> 02:17:25,264
preparation of that and the preparation of us for that.

2011
02:17:27,539 --> 02:17:35,114
Yes, no problem. We already have. Several processes. And it

2012
02:17:35,114 --> 02:17:36,754
will be good for us to put it all in

2013
02:17:36,754 --> 02:17:39,714
one place and have everyone know. It and follow it.

2014
02:17:41,274 --> 02:17:45,128
And one more question. Derek Turner. Is there any provision

2015
02:17:45,128 --> 02:17:49,214
of the fairgrounds management plan that requires. Every three years

2016
02:17:49,214 --> 02:17:55,208
that gets revisited. Is it just approved? I don't know

2017
02:17:55,208 --> 02:18:01,504
definitively. Some of our plans do, say, every three years,

2018
02:18:01,504 --> 02:18:05,753
like the Alk management plan. Some just say. This is

2019
02:18:05,753 --> 02:18:08,153
our plan or this is our policy, so I can

2020
02:18:08,153 --> 02:18:12,421
check into that. I don't mean to drag this out

2021
02:18:12,421 --> 02:18:16,474
much further. And I guess I'm wondering. About. Would the

2022
02:18:16,474 --> 02:18:21,264
county commissioners be open to saying next winter? Revisit. Hear

2023
02:18:21,264 --> 02:18:24,304
from the public on how the fairgrounds management plan.

2024
02:18:31,363 --> 02:18:33,763
I guess I'll yet leave it to Tony. If you

2025
02:18:33,763 --> 02:18:37,306
want to make any kind of. Motion based on. What?

2026
02:18:37,306 --> 02:18:44,011
You. Yeah. I think. I'm feeling. That county commissioners both

2027
02:18:44,011 --> 02:18:45,931
have a lot on their plate, and they're not super

2028
02:18:45,931 --> 02:18:50,059
interested in this issue. To be quite honest, I don't

2029
02:18:50,059 --> 02:18:54,164
think they're interested in revisiting this. Issue right now. I

2030
02:18:54,164 --> 02:18:57,044
think we could vote. I don't think a split vote

2031
02:18:57,044 --> 02:19:02,001
is super effective with the county commissioners. And I'm not

2032
02:19:02,001 --> 02:19:07,443
sure. That. Asking them just to take more public input.

2033
02:19:08,698 --> 02:19:10,898
Is going to be effective enough to actually open the

2034
02:19:10,898 --> 02:19:15,639
issue up. I feel like the best interaction I have

2035
02:19:15,639 --> 02:19:19,039
with our county commissioners is when I went and presented

2036
02:19:19,039 --> 02:19:25,120
it their open session and did my own. Perspective about

2037
02:19:25,120 --> 02:19:27,800
their lack of attention to the Red Hill or to

2038
02:19:27,800 --> 02:19:33,400
the east boulder wreck plan East East Boulder Creek East

2039
02:19:33,400 --> 02:19:38,647
Boulder Creek management plan and they actually paid attention. For

2040
02:19:38,647 --> 02:19:43,235
at least three minutes, I had. But I think that's

2041
02:19:43,235 --> 02:19:47,596
actually. A more effective route, to be honest. And I

2042
02:19:47,596 --> 02:19:50,116
think that can occur from both the pelic and I

2043
02:19:50,116 --> 02:19:53,036
think it can occur from individual post act members as

2044
02:19:53,036 --> 02:19:56,196
well. Acting in your own capacity, not as part of

2045
02:19:56,196 --> 02:20:01,618
the committee. So I think I'll drop those. And look

2046
02:20:01,618 --> 02:20:06,563
forward to may. And Heidi's presentation and whoever else you

2047
02:20:06,563 --> 02:20:10,164
want to bring into that conversation. I'm sure Vivian will

2048
02:20:10,164 --> 02:20:13,780
be up here, too. I know she's aching to come

2049
02:20:13,780 --> 02:20:18,506
up. Great. That sounds good. So I think next is

2050
02:20:18,506 --> 02:20:23,346
the director's update. Great. Thank you very. Much. Teresawaki, director

2051
02:20:23,346 --> 02:20:26,346
of parks and open space and I have just a

2052
02:20:26,346 --> 02:20:29,466
few things, actually. I'm going to ask Vivian to come

2053
02:20:29,466 --> 02:20:34,508
up. She can be preparing something. They want you to

2054
02:20:34,508 --> 02:20:38,902
come. She knows that she has to figure out how

2055
02:20:38,902 --> 02:20:45,421
to plug in this computer. Whatever. So Prairie runs. Speaking

2056
02:20:45,421 --> 02:20:51,709
of prairie run, the management plan. Is being implemented. We

2057
02:20:51,709 --> 02:20:55,738
hired a consultant. To help do the design for the

2058
02:20:55,738 --> 02:21:00,138
prairie run management plan, and they are heading towards 90%.

2059
02:21:00,138 --> 02:21:04,338
Design by April. By early April. So they're moving very

2060
02:21:04,338 --> 02:21:06,338
fast. We have a lot of staff working on it,

2061
02:21:06,338 --> 02:21:11,258
and our goal is still to have the southeast corner

2062
02:21:11,258 --> 02:21:15,725
open. In 2025. So we're still moving forward with that.

2063
02:21:15,725 --> 02:21:19,192
It's very exciting. If you have been out driving around

2064
02:21:19,192 --> 02:21:21,952
recently, you might have seen a lot of prescribed fire

2065
02:21:21,952 --> 02:21:24,872
happening. Parks and open space is part of that. We

2066
02:21:24,872 --> 02:21:26,592
work with the sheriff's office and we do a lot

2067
02:21:26,592 --> 02:21:32,176
of prescribed fire and. It's very successful these last couple

2068
02:21:32,176 --> 02:21:35,463
of weeks, so that's a good thing. It's both on

2069
02:21:35,463 --> 02:21:40,634
county lands and. We had a smoke near our open

2070
02:21:40,634 --> 02:21:42,714
space offices. It was not our burn. Don't tell. Me.

2071
02:21:42,714 --> 02:21:44,394
It's the sugar mill. You guys weren't over at the

2072
02:21:44,394 --> 02:21:48,498
sugar. We were. Not at the sugar mill, no. But

2073
02:21:48,498 --> 02:21:52,116
anyway. It is. County and non county are doing burns.

2074
02:21:52,116 --> 02:21:54,596
So just to be clear, we're not. The only ones

2075
02:21:54,596 --> 02:21:58,811
out there burning. The cardinal mill mine, which many of

2076
02:21:58,811 --> 02:22:02,451
you took a field trip to. We are working with

2077
02:22:02,451 --> 02:22:06,931
two. Contractors. One is looking on a temporary solution and

2078
02:22:06,931 --> 02:22:09,651
one is looking at a permanent solution to try and

2079
02:22:09,651 --> 02:22:13,531
mitigate the heavy metals that are leaching out of the

2080
02:22:13,531 --> 02:22:22,534
former mine into Kundrak. Creek. We are moving forward. And

2081
02:22:22,534 --> 02:22:25,094
every meeting that goes by, the price tag goes up

2082
02:22:25,094 --> 02:22:28,794
on fixing it. So it is going to be. A

2083
02:22:28,794 --> 02:22:34,675
very expensive. Mitigation, both the temporary and the permanent. We

2084
02:22:34,675 --> 02:22:36,635
don't have that yet. And we will. And we'll bring

2085
02:22:36,635 --> 02:22:39,395
it back to. You. So you have at least an

2086
02:22:39,395 --> 02:22:41,955
understanding of what Boulder county is proposing to do, because

2087
02:22:41,955 --> 02:22:47,449
we're talking millions of dollars. That. Will need to be

2088
02:22:47,449 --> 02:22:50,289
put towards this effort. So that's something that certainly is

2089
02:22:50,289 --> 02:22:53,849
going to get the county commissioner's attention. It is a

2090
02:22:53,849 --> 02:22:59,800
state permit. We need to comply. But. We're also looking.

2091
02:23:00,294 --> 02:23:03,534
At state and federal funding sources. What I want to

2092
02:23:03,534 --> 02:23:05,494
point out is this has been in the news. It's

2093
02:23:05,494 --> 02:23:10,732
been on nature net. There is. Another mine. It's a

2094
02:23:10,732 --> 02:23:15,052
former mine that they are requesting to expand and reopen.

2095
02:23:15,052 --> 02:23:20,412
Reopen. And expand. And it's called the cross and caribou

2096
02:23:20,412 --> 02:23:25,252
gold mines. And the company that is proposing this. Their

2097
02:23:25,252 --> 02:23:29,230
application for a permit is into the state. It is

2098
02:23:29,230 --> 02:23:34,641
called Grand Island Resources. I just want to be clear

2099
02:23:34,641 --> 02:23:40,603
because the names all overlap, the land overlaps. The creek

2100
02:23:40,603 --> 02:23:44,923
that it drains into is Coon Track Creek. So as

2101
02:23:44,923 --> 02:23:48,763
we are trying to clean up the boulder county owned

2102
02:23:48,763 --> 02:23:52,603
former mine. There's a proposal to open up from what

2103
02:23:52,603 --> 02:23:56,083
used to be nine acres of mining. They want to

2104
02:23:56,083 --> 02:24:00,737
expand it to 200 acres of mining. And we've looked

2105
02:24:00,737 --> 02:24:04,737
at 3d models, and literally some of their mine shafts

2106
02:24:04,737 --> 02:24:08,952
cross under our shaft. So I just want you all

2107
02:24:08,952 --> 02:24:13,103
to be aware of that. And as we move forward

2108
02:24:13,103 --> 02:24:17,681
with this, Through any public process, through county commissioners or

2109
02:24:17,681 --> 02:24:21,442
through you. People are going to get confused, the public

2110
02:24:21,442 --> 02:24:28,042
is going to get confused, and. They're going to conflate

2111
02:24:28,042 --> 02:24:30,322
the two issues, so I just want to be sure.

2112
02:24:30,322 --> 02:24:33,322
That Pozek knows and understands. We are trying to close

2113
02:24:33,322 --> 02:24:38,362
and clean up a mine. Whatever. And there's a proposal

2114
02:24:38,362 --> 02:24:43,494
to expand mining right in the same area. Terese, the

2115
02:24:43,494 --> 02:24:48,894
state has the say on opening and expanding the mine.

2116
02:24:48,894 --> 02:24:53,326
Or does Boulder county also have some input there. The

2117
02:24:53,326 --> 02:24:57,246
input that we have. Currently, there are four departments working

2118
02:24:57,246 --> 02:24:59,966
on providing input to the state. It's the state that

2119
02:24:59,966 --> 02:25:03,610
gives the permit. I don't know how much. Like you

2120
02:25:03,610 --> 02:25:05,650
heard with oil and gas, we need our oil. And

2121
02:25:05,650 --> 02:25:11,069
gas experts. I don't know. How much our community planning

2122
02:25:11,069 --> 02:25:15,298
and permitting has control over. Anything that happens up there.

2123
02:25:16,740 --> 02:25:19,900
But they are certainly one of the four departments that

2124
02:25:19,900 --> 02:25:23,060
are providing input to the state. So we are providing

2125
02:25:23,060 --> 02:25:25,860
input to the state on all the things that impact

2126
02:25:25,860 --> 02:25:29,460
parks and open space there's. Public health issues. There's community

2127
02:25:29,460 --> 02:25:36,988
planning and permitting. And the fourth one. I don't know

2128
02:25:36,988 --> 02:25:39,548
what the fourth one is right now, but anyway, we're

2129
02:25:39,548 --> 02:25:44,174
going. To be sending. Four different letters of concern or

2130
02:25:44,174 --> 02:25:49,656
opposition to the expansion. And you all as individuals can

2131
02:25:49,656 --> 02:25:57,606
also submit comments. It's just Google Cross gold mine. The

2132
02:25:57,606 --> 02:26:00,926
Netherland mountain Ear newspaper has done a really thorough job

2133
02:26:00,926 --> 02:26:04,823
of covering it. There's a public portal that you can

2134
02:26:04,823 --> 02:26:09,669
just get online and put comments in. And to me,

2135
02:26:09,669 --> 02:26:13,927
we're looking at. A $10 million cleanup, and they're proposing

2136
02:26:13,927 --> 02:26:19,527
to do. 20 times the amount Terese could renata send

2137
02:26:19,527 --> 02:26:24,694
us that portal. Certainly. I would appreciate that. No problem.

2138
02:26:27,701 --> 02:26:31,181
And besides that, does the portal have information to base

2139
02:26:31,181 --> 02:26:34,301
our comments on about the mine? Well, what I would

2140
02:26:34,301 --> 02:26:37,381
say is the mountain. I'll have her send you both.

2141
02:26:37,381 --> 02:26:43,624
That'd be. Great if anyone's on nature net. The mountain

2142
02:26:43,624 --> 02:26:47,338
articles with links to the portal. I'll work with Renata

2143
02:26:47,338 --> 02:26:50,618
and we'll get you the mountaineer articles as. Soon as.

2144
02:26:52,278 --> 02:26:55,438
Our things are submitted. You will be able to see

2145
02:26:55,438 --> 02:26:59,077
them on the public site now, of course. We're going

2146
02:26:59,077 --> 02:27:01,357
to be last minute getting these in. The deadline is

2147
02:27:01,357 --> 02:27:04,517
April 1, I believe. So it's not like we can

2148
02:27:04,517 --> 02:27:07,820
share. They're not public, but the mountaineer, I would say.

2149
02:27:09,049 --> 02:27:12,740
The public press has covered it. They give you concerns,

2150
02:27:12,740 --> 02:27:15,860
talking points, and then you can go in and put

2151
02:27:15,860 --> 02:27:19,300
in comments, public comments. And encourage your friends to do

2152
02:27:19,300 --> 02:27:28,431
so as well. Okay. No other questions. The postac vacancies.

2153
02:27:30,025 --> 02:27:31,705
We have, as you know, we've had two people, we

2154
02:27:31,705 --> 02:27:36,313
had Paula and Jackson that stepped down. Trace is up

2155
02:27:36,313 --> 02:27:39,713
for renewal, and so is drew. So all of those

2156
02:27:39,713 --> 02:27:44,305
names. Have been four vacancies, basically. So the commissioners are

2157
02:27:44,305 --> 02:27:48,025
approaching this. We hope to meet with. Them early April

2158
02:27:48,025 --> 02:27:51,185
and have a decision before next posec meeting. So just

2159
02:27:51,185 --> 02:27:55,769
to keep you informed, of where that stands. I want

2160
02:27:55,769 --> 02:27:59,129
to congratulate Christine Johnson. She passed her volunteer naturalist training.

2161
02:28:00,845 --> 02:28:05,824
I got to see her presentation, and she is. A

2162
02:28:05,824 --> 02:28:10,824
competent. Volunteer naturalist right now, so thank you, Christine. Next

2163
02:28:10,824 --> 02:28:12,424
month. We're having a field trip, so we're not having

2164
02:28:12,424 --> 02:28:15,064
a meeting here. We are having a field trip, and

2165
02:28:15,064 --> 02:28:17,144
the field trip is the focus of the field trip

2166
02:28:17,144 --> 02:28:22,024
is trail maintenance and muddy trails in particular, and you

2167
02:28:22,024 --> 02:28:25,264
will be seeing information from Ornata on where to meet.

2168
02:28:25,264 --> 02:28:28,864
We'll provide you dinner. It's really going to take since

2169
02:28:28,864 --> 02:28:33,123
we're getting longer. Nights. It will be 100% in the

2170
02:28:33,123 --> 02:28:35,203
field, so I don't know where we're going to meet

2171
02:28:35,203 --> 02:28:37,443
and what trails we're going to go look at. But

2172
02:28:37,443 --> 02:28:41,544
that's next meeting. That will be interesting for the new

2173
02:28:41,544 --> 02:28:45,310
members. So we might want to think about. How to

2174
02:28:45,310 --> 02:28:50,200
give them some onboarding before they we do. Well, actually,

2175
02:28:50,200 --> 02:28:53,800
at least one of you offered to be a mentor.

2176
02:28:53,800 --> 02:29:00,079
I think Christine did. Christine? Carol did. Carol's raising her

2177
02:29:00,079 --> 02:29:08,748
hand. Well, hopefully trace is coming back. So. We'll try

2178
02:29:08,748 --> 02:29:10,748
and pair them up with a mentor for sure. Carol,

2179
02:29:10,748 --> 02:29:14,882
thank you for volunteering. Tracy, you might have to mentor

2180
02:29:14,882 --> 02:29:18,511
yourself. But. You're right. But we will do for sure.

2181
02:29:18,511 --> 02:29:20,951
We will do their orientation before we. Send them out

2182
02:29:20,951 --> 02:29:29,354
in the field. And then this is what Vivian's up

2183
02:29:29,354 --> 02:29:35,779
here for. March is Women's history month, and this year's

2184
02:29:35,779 --> 02:29:40,255
theme is moving forward together. And we would like to

2185
02:29:40,255 --> 02:29:43,455
just take this opportunity to look at a few. Well,

2186
02:29:43,455 --> 02:29:44,855
first of all, I'm going to tell you about one.

2187
02:29:47,002 --> 02:29:50,589
And then we're going to watch a short film. On.

2188
02:29:51,812 --> 02:29:54,852
One of the women in parks nervous base who really

2189
02:29:54,852 --> 02:29:57,572
helped influence our open space program. And then that is

2190
02:29:57,572 --> 02:30:02,172
Carolyn Homeberg. Our Carolyn Albert preserve is named after her

2191
02:30:02,172 --> 02:30:04,884
and. There's a. So we'll get to that in 1

2192
02:30:04,884 --> 02:30:08,404
second. The other thing is. There was recently Boulder International

2193
02:30:08,404 --> 02:30:11,844
Film Festival and there was a film presented at it

2194
02:30:11,844 --> 02:30:18,948
called Citizen Ruth. And I highly recommend. That you. Were

2195
02:30:18,948 --> 02:30:21,148
on the park service based advisory committee. If you can

2196
02:30:21,148 --> 02:30:25,293
find the time. And the cash. You can get it

2197
02:30:25,293 --> 02:30:32,373
online. Through Boulder International Film Festival and Ruth Wright. Was

2198
02:30:32,373 --> 02:30:35,053
a force of nature for creating open space in Boulder

2199
02:30:35,053 --> 02:30:38,733
county. She worked with the city and it certainly had

2200
02:30:38,733 --> 02:30:44,207
influences. In where we are today. Why Boulder county looks

2201
02:30:44,207 --> 02:30:46,657
the way it does. And Ruth Wright is still alive.

2202
02:30:46,657 --> 02:30:49,920
She's still alive. She's 96. She's in her film, she

2203
02:30:49,920 --> 02:30:57,872
is interviewed and she was at the. Showing. So with

2204
02:30:57,872 --> 02:31:00,832
that, Vivian has it queued up, and we're going to

2205
02:31:00,832 --> 02:31:07,691
watch Carolyn Holmberg. A legacy of service. I'm Terese Klocki.

2206
02:31:07,691 --> 02:31:10,651
I'm the director of Boulder county parks in open space,

2207
02:31:10,651 --> 02:31:15,491
and I'm thrilled to help introduce this tribute to Carolyn

2208
02:31:15,491 --> 02:31:19,491
Holmberg. Carolyn Homeberg was an early director of Boulder county

2209
02:31:19,491 --> 02:31:26,529
parks in open space. She in collaboration with some of

2210
02:31:26,529 --> 02:31:30,049
the other visionaries that we have in Boulder county, including

2211
02:31:30,049 --> 02:31:36,351
Ron Stewart and Dicky Lee Hullinghorst. Were instrumental in creating

2212
02:31:36,351 --> 02:31:39,231
our open space program, the program that we all know

2213
02:31:39,231 --> 02:31:44,231
and love today, when she became director of parks and

2214
02:31:44,231 --> 02:31:49,351
open space in the early 1980s. She had the idea

2215
02:31:49,351 --> 02:31:53,815
that open space could really. Shape what Boulder county looks

2216
02:31:53,815 --> 02:31:57,215
like as a community. You will get a chance to

2217
02:31:57,215 --> 02:32:00,655
listen to some of her colleagues, the people that she

2218
02:32:00,655 --> 02:32:04,255
partnered with and other visionaries that worked with Carolyn in

2219
02:32:04,255 --> 02:32:08,410
the early days of open space. And together they have

2220
02:32:08,410 --> 02:32:13,228
created what we know now as our open space. Great

2221
02:32:13,228 --> 02:32:17,228
mentor, great sense of humor, fun to be around. Carolyn,

2222
02:32:17,228 --> 02:32:22,884
as far as. As a person. She was so human

2223
02:32:22,884 --> 02:32:26,164
and she was so kind. She was really brilliant, and

2224
02:32:26,164 --> 02:32:29,684
she was a negotiator par excellence. When she was for

2225
02:32:29,684 --> 02:32:34,740
something, she worked as hard as she could. Maybe 20

2226
02:32:34,740 --> 02:32:39,289
hours a day. She could reach out and you could

2227
02:32:39,289 --> 02:32:43,689
know that she valued you. Very appreciative of the staff

2228
02:32:43,689 --> 02:32:46,889
that did work for her and not afraid at all

2229
02:32:46,889 --> 02:32:50,202
to join in and give a hand. She never missed

2230
02:32:50,202 --> 02:32:54,522
a moment to make us enjoy our jobs in our

2231
02:32:54,522 --> 02:33:04,123
day. Carolyn had been on this parks and open space

2232
02:33:04,123 --> 02:33:12,228
advisory committee, and. I was immediately impressed with her. She

2233
02:33:12,228 --> 02:33:16,588
was so sharp. Real dynamo. I've never seen anybody as

2234
02:33:16,588 --> 02:33:21,308
energetic as Carolyn. She had presents. Yes, she did. Gravitas.

2235
02:33:21,308 --> 02:33:26,980
She did. You listen? She talked slowly. And you paid

2236
02:33:26,980 --> 02:33:30,952
attention, and sometimes it was a little bit intimidating. So

2237
02:33:30,952 --> 02:33:37,263
when there was an opportunity. Which. We made. We brought

2238
02:33:37,263 --> 02:33:40,263
Carolyn on board, and I'm guessing that for some of

2239
02:33:40,263 --> 02:33:44,964
you, that was kind. Of. A surprise. As I recall,

2240
02:33:44,964 --> 02:33:48,851
she was working in the district attorney's office. As kind

2241
02:33:48,851 --> 02:33:51,971
of a consumer advocate. So for us, some of us,

2242
02:33:51,971 --> 02:33:55,015
anyway, there was a little bit of question mark. I

2243
02:33:55,015 --> 02:33:57,855
can recall too on my own time walking down here

2244
02:33:57,855 --> 02:34:00,055
at night and her light would be on and you'd

2245
02:34:00,055 --> 02:34:04,235
see her working up here. After eating 09:00 or later.

2246
02:34:05,489 --> 02:34:15,343
Wow. Yeah. When Carolyn took over at parks and open

2247
02:34:15,343 --> 02:34:19,570
space, the department was pretty small. There wasn't a lot

2248
02:34:19,570 --> 02:34:23,810
of land that had been preserved as open space. When

2249
02:34:23,810 --> 02:34:26,760
I first started working with her. It was before the

2250
02:34:26,760 --> 02:34:29,840
open space sales tax pass and we were doing rolling

2251
02:34:29,840 --> 02:34:33,080
option deals. The qualities that she brought to the table.

2252
02:34:34,376 --> 02:34:38,751
Were ideal for the growth of the program. She was

2253
02:34:38,751 --> 02:34:41,991
a relationship builder in the best sense of the word.

2254
02:34:41,991 --> 02:34:45,591
93 was the biggie was having sales tax. And the

2255
02:34:45,591 --> 02:34:47,751
other thing I think kind of happened. People start seeing

2256
02:34:47,751 --> 02:34:51,532
the success of the program. Particularly with the agriculture piece

2257
02:34:51,532 --> 02:34:54,652
of it. Once you got a few farmers involved in

2258
02:34:54,652 --> 02:34:58,649
doing conservation easements, for example. The others could see that

2259
02:34:58,649 --> 02:35:02,369
there was a path here for doing something that would

2260
02:35:02,369 --> 02:35:11,784
save their properties. From development. Due to the

2261
02:35:11,784 --> 02:35:16,784
passage of the sales tax and the relationship that Carolyn

2262
02:35:16,784 --> 02:35:26,673
had with. Like Vantines and the Stromquis. That ball started

2263
02:35:26,673 --> 02:35:30,483
rolling once. There were successes in word of mouth came

2264
02:35:30,483 --> 02:35:34,071
that this is not a bad program. I first met

2265
02:35:34,071 --> 02:35:36,831
Carolyn, I think I was on the first Boulder County

2266
02:35:36,831 --> 02:35:41,271
Advisory Committee, and I remember her always asking me, what's

2267
02:35:41,271 --> 02:35:43,271
it going to take to keep you here? What's it

2268
02:35:43,271 --> 02:35:46,751
going to take to keep you farmers here? And I

2269
02:35:46,751 --> 02:35:50,311
remember that vividly because I think she was trying to

2270
02:35:50,311 --> 02:35:53,699
establish a trust. There were many years we were coming

2271
02:35:53,699 --> 02:35:59,266
out of hard times. Financially in agriculture in the 1980s,

2272
02:35:59,266 --> 02:36:03,066
and it wasn't about getting producers off the land. It

2273
02:36:03,066 --> 02:36:07,317
was keeping them on the land and. She made people

2274
02:36:07,317 --> 02:36:11,411
feel very comfortable and at ease. And I think that

2275
02:36:11,411 --> 02:36:15,171
helped her in the future in terms of making acquisitions,

2276
02:36:15,171 --> 02:36:19,051
doing acquisitions and buying farms is important, but I think

2277
02:36:19,051 --> 02:36:22,411
keeping the families in place was just as important, and

2278
02:36:22,411 --> 02:36:26,671
that really made such an impact to me. Those first

2279
02:36:26,671 --> 02:36:30,131
years, we were like drunk and sailors. There was just

2280
02:36:30,131 --> 02:36:34,132
all kinds of money, and he just went out. And

2281
02:36:34,132 --> 02:36:35,932
then you all knew from the maintenance. And the priority

2282
02:36:35,932 --> 02:36:40,453
was buy bye bye, buy. We used to joke about

2283
02:36:40,453 --> 02:36:45,183
Carolyn and acquisitions and saying that, well, If you came

2284
02:36:45,183 --> 02:36:47,183
in with muddy boots on. You better be careful, because

2285
02:36:47,183 --> 02:36:49,743
she might want to put an offer on the dirt

2286
02:36:49,743 --> 02:36:59,662
that's on your boots. What property really embodies, Carolyn. I

2287
02:36:59,662 --> 02:37:02,422
think it's this one. When it came time. To figure

2288
02:37:02,422 --> 02:37:04,622
out how we're going to honor the legacy of Carolyn

2289
02:37:04,622 --> 02:37:08,342
Homeberg. It was decided to name the Rock creek farm

2290
02:37:08,342 --> 02:37:18,326
in her honors. Because. It's really the property

2291
02:37:18,326 --> 02:37:21,566
that embodies almost all of the aspects of our program.

2292
02:37:23,138 --> 02:37:25,738
It's got a recreational component. It's got the agricultural component.

2293
02:37:25,738 --> 02:37:29,458
It has wildlife. The fact that the Carolyn was so

2294
02:37:29,458 --> 02:37:34,139
instrumental in engaging with the agricultural community. Is her legacy.

2295
02:37:35,399 --> 02:37:37,719
And it started here. I don't believe we would have

2296
02:37:37,719 --> 02:37:40,079
had an open space program in Boulder county if it

2297
02:37:40,079 --> 02:37:43,199
hadn't been for Carolyn and Ron and some other very

2298
02:37:43,199 --> 02:37:47,339
visionary people. That basically put it together from the ground

2299
02:37:47,339 --> 02:37:50,779
up, looking at how it started, what it is today.

2300
02:37:50,779 --> 02:37:53,579
I think she's the major reason for that, and it's

2301
02:37:53,579 --> 02:37:56,219
probably the number one. Or number two park agency in

2302
02:37:56,219 --> 02:37:59,579
the United States. The youth corp. Program is now 25

2303
02:37:59,579 --> 02:38:03,303
years on so. There are now of people who met

2304
02:38:03,303 --> 02:38:06,623
in the youth corps who are now bringing their children

2305
02:38:06,623 --> 02:38:11,463
to Rott Creek Farm. And in that way, Carolyn's legacy

2306
02:38:11,463 --> 02:38:14,663
definitely has passed on, at least two to three generations

2307
02:38:14,663 --> 02:38:19,671
at this point. She was very instrumental, I believe. In

2308
02:38:19,671 --> 02:38:21,191
helping us save our family farm.

2309
02:38:44,304 --> 02:38:54,241
It can go everywhere. Everywhere. That was

2310
02:38:54,241 --> 02:39:00,886
great. Woman's history month. That was great. Thanks. Vivian. Anything

2311
02:39:00,886 --> 02:39:06,334
else? That's it. Thank you. All right, we are adjourned.