[0:00] done a little
Thank you. [laughter] Uh done an agenda
[0:05] [clears throat] for myself here. The
first order of business is to um uh
[0:09] review and approve the minutes from the
last meeting. Um and is somebody
[0:16] would somebody make a motion uh to
approve them?
[0:21] » I will move to approve them.
>> Okay.
[0:25] » Moves it. And as was there a second?
Yeah, Jordan will second.
[0:30] » Okay, great. Is there any discussion?
>> They looked good.
[0:36] » Good. Uh, all in favor, please say I or
raise your hand or do something.
[0:40] » I
>> I
[0:43] » I
>> So, they're approved. Uh, all opposed?
[0:48] Oh. Uh, so the minutes are approved. My
cat is thundering around in the
[0:53] background, so jumpy. That's why. Um
um [clears throat]
[1:02] and the other thing we need to do is to
uh swear in uh I guess it's John McCulla
[1:09] who is going to give testimony. So I
don't have the oath in front of me.
[1:14] Barbara, do you happen to have it? Would
you be able to read it out?
[1:18] » I don't. Uh but if you want to just move
ahead with the next item, I'll go ahead
[1:23] and see if I can find one.
>> Okay, great. Um, and I think that's the
[1:27] only oath that we need to do this
morning. Uh, this afternoon we're going
[1:31] to talk about whether we all want to do
an oath each time. And that's a
[1:34] different subject, but I don't think
we're required to. Um, the, uh, the
[1:40] application that we're considering is
the application of um, Charlotte uh, and
[1:46] Scott Bassage and it's parcel ID number
360105.
[1:52] Um, and the request is for uh penalties
and fees uh from dating from 2025 in the
[2:00] amount of $434.34.
[2:03] So the next item on the agenda is to
inquire um whether anybody on the board
[2:10] of tax abatement um has had exarty
communication about this application.
[2:18] Um, and I'm assuming that the listers
probably have cuz that's sort of in the
[2:23] nature of this particular request. So,
um, don't consider that, uh, to be
[2:28] anything other than to say it happened.
Um, and also to inquire whether anybody
[2:33] has a conflict of interest, um, in the
proceeding. So, uh, please speak up if
[2:40] you feel you did do.
>> Janet, I have the oath. If you would
[2:45] like for me to read it on your behalf,
>> that'd be great. Um, and John, you're
[2:49] there. I don't see you, but I assume
you're there in the room.
[2:54] » Well, John is here.
>> Okay.
[2:56] » Yeah.
>> Okay. So, the oath is under the pains
[3:00] and penalties of perjury, do you
solemnly swear that the evidence you
[3:04] give and the cause under consideration
shall be the whole truth and nothing but
[3:08] the truth?
>> Yes.
[3:13] » Okay. Um,
>> yes. [laughter]
[3:20] So
>> didn't feel like the page of perjury
[3:23] today.
[3:26] » You're on my on my Zoom anyway. You're
you're you sound very drifty. So I don't
[3:32] know if you do on others. Um so John, I
think you're the um one witness that we
[3:37] have on this application and I assume
everybody has the application in front
[3:42] of them or at least they've had a chance
to review it. So, um John, if you could
[3:47] uh give us the background and um
[clears throat] uh anything that you
[3:53] feel that we need to know in order to
take action.
[3:56] » Okay. Um, in uh fall of 20124,
a property tax transfer report shows a
[4:05] seller and buyer um for a piece of
property came into the office and it
[4:10] showed that the transfer transfer was
Scott and the transferee was John Hannah
[4:19] passage with a Seattle address. Um there
was no indication at the train at the on
[4:28] the top of the PTTR that this was a life
estate, but in fact it was with a life
[4:35] estate. The the main owner is still in
this case the person listed as a seller.
[4:43] Um so
the name should not have been changed.
[4:47] The address should not have been
changed, but it was. The tax bill went
[4:52] wrong address
and
[4:56] wasn't paid.
>> And then kind of came as a surprise when
[5:01] when it was discovered delinquent
and here we are,
[5:07] » right?
Um, and so this is under the uh the pro
[5:13] the the uh provision [clears throat]
that allows for an an an adjustment or
[5:18] an abatement rather if it's a mistake of
the listister. Um, and that's the
[5:22] situation that uh [clears throat] that
we're being asked to do the abatement on
[5:27] at the moment. Um, so it are there any
uh questions of John that anyone has?
[5:37] So the the uh normal course is but it's
not required is that we go into
[5:43] deliberative session uh to make a
decision. We're not required to do it.
[5:48] Um and it's a little awkward. One half
of us are not there. The other half are
[5:54] there but we can do it if you want to.
Um or we can just uh entertain a motion
[5:59] if somebody uh has a motion to make.
I I'd like to make a motion that we go
[6:05] into deliberative session. This is
Barbara.
[6:08] » Okay.
All right. Um and I I assume that you
[6:14] know how to do this because it happens
in other occasions. Is that right? I
[6:18] don't know how to do it.
>> I think we just need a second and then a
[6:21] vote.
>> Well, but the the I'm talking about the
[6:24] mechanics of doing it.
>> We'll just stop recording. I think
[6:28] that's the only difference. I think we
stopped
[6:31] » and if anyone tries to come in, we tell
them they need to wait a moment.
[6:35] » Okay, [clears throat] that sounds fine.
Um, so, uh, the mot the motion's been
[6:40] made to go into deliberate session. Is
there a second?
[6:44] » I'll I'll second.
>> Okay. Uh, all those in favor, please say
[6:48] I.
>> I. I.
[6:50] » And those.
[clears throat]
[6:52] » Okay. So uh whatever the if you want to
and uh so we're now in open session
[7:03] although it does feel just like the
deliberative session but uh but there
[7:07] you go. Um so I'd like to see if
somebody would make a motion to uh uh
[7:14] get us get us moving in terms of making
a decision.
[7:18] Uh I would like to uh make a motion to
uh approve the uh abatement of late fees
[7:27] um
>> and penalty
[7:28] » and and penalty uh associate associated
with uh Scott passage and Charlotte
[7:34] Hannah's uh request to do so. Um uh and
the stated reason uh was that uh uh
[7:41] there was an error uh on the part of the
listers and I think that that seems to
[7:45] be represented in this case. Uh that uh
abatement amount is $434.34.
[7:55] » Okay. Uh so that's a motion. Is there a
second to that?
[8:00] » Second.
>> Okay. Uh, it's been moved and seconded
[8:03] that we uh approve the application for
abatement of the penalties and interest
[8:09] in the amount of $434.34
[8:13] partial ID 360105.
Um, so is there any discussion before we
[8:20] vote?
Um, [clears throat]
[8:24] see any discussion? Uh, could I have a
show of hands of all I'm not sure. Do we
[8:30] have to do this with a roll call? We
don't. Do we? I don't think we do. Show
[8:34] of hands. Um, everyone, all in favor,
please raise your hand.
[8:41] » And those opposed.
[8:44] Okay. Uh, so the motion has passed. Um,
and I think that's it. Uh we did have a
[8:54] discussion about whether we were going
to uh at Tegan if you want if you think
[8:59] this is a good time to have a discussion
about whether we do an oath at each
[9:03] meeting we can do that now or we can
wait till some non snowstorm time when
[9:08] we're all together which might might be
a better discussion but it's up to you.
[9:14] Um I I think it's good to at least start
the discussion and then if there's a lot
[9:19] we want to talk about maybe we could
save it for when we're all in the same
[9:24] room. Um Janet brought up the idea that
perhaps that the oath that we have
[9:29] signed in the past and I have a bunch of
them in here is not required and I
[9:34] checked in with the LCT and while a lot
of clerks and towns do have all the
[9:37] board members sign an oath at the
beginning of every meeting not everyone
[9:40] does and it's not required. Um, I did
ask Charlotte if she had any feedback on
[9:46] this point since she's not here tonight.
And she said that she thinks of it kind
[9:50] of like there was another kind of
meeting she used to attend where they
[9:54] did a prayer in the beginning. And while
she's not a big prayer person, it set a
[9:59] tone of
somnity and gravity, I suppose, to the
[10:05] situation and helped helped center
people before a meeting. And so she
[10:09] aired on the side of in favor of an
oath. Um, do we want to talk about it
[10:15] today?
>> Um, this is Barbara.
[10:20] It's not that hard. It doesn't take but
just a minute and I think it sets the
[10:24] tone as well. I would I would vote in
favor of taking an oath each time.
[10:29] » So, the the concern that I had that I
raised with Tegan, I'll I'll share with
[10:33] everyone. It um we had a we had a big
some very sensitive about the idea of
[10:38] oaths. we had a big dust up in the
legislature about whether or not we'd
[10:41] done our oaths properly. Um, and it
raised all not a deliberative body, but
[10:46] it raised all kinds of questions about
whether the actions we took were legal
[10:50] and constitutional and so on. So, it's a
serious thing. Um, and the concern I
[10:56] have is that if we start doing it and
because of a different town clerk or a
[11:02] different, you know, chair or different
whatever, if it's not in our procedures,
[11:08] um, and we don't do it at a given time,
that that may raise issues about the
[11:13] validity of what we're doing. So I um if
we require it, my feeling is that we
[11:20] should put it in the rules of procedure
so that it will be there for whoever
[11:25] takes over in 10 years from now when
hopefully most of us won't be here. I
[11:31] won't be here [laughter]
for sure. Um so that so that's just my
[11:36] thought. It's a serious thing. It's not
it's it's I agree that it lends a a a
[11:43] feeling of gravity, but that's because
it actually has gravity to it. Um, so I
[11:49] want to be cautious about it. I want to
be sure that if we say we're going to do
[11:53] it that we actually really do it.
Anyway, those are those are my thoughts
[11:58] about it. Anyone else want to jump in?
[12:03] » Oh, sorry. Go ahead, Don.
Um,
[12:09] I think I've been in this role like I
don't know maybe 12 years or something.
[12:12] And I remember Denise I thought used to
have us um actually do the oath like
[12:18] this but only at the very start of each
um time that we were elected. Um I
[12:23] thought that was a nice balance of um
like not just signing a piece of paper
[12:27] so like actually taking an oath but not
having to do it every time that we um
[12:32] convene. So, I I honestly don't have
strong feelings on this one. I
[12:36] appreciate your point, Janet, about it
about us. What happens if we forget to
[12:40] or don't do it, but that's what I would
>> that's what I would uh think throw.
[12:45] » We did do an oath.
[12:52] Uh
>> oh, Jennering
[12:56] that we're doing. Um, and I So, so we
did kind of do what you're talking
[13:02] about. I freeze up probably. Uh, anyone
else want to jump in?
[13:07] » Janet, you froze up. Do you mind saying
that again?
[13:11] » I just said we did do an oath um in in
the LA at the last time we met um for
[13:17] for the office when we we took office.
So, it was along the lines of what Dylan
[13:22] was describing.
Anyone
[13:26] else?
>> I think it's um
[13:30] uh with some of these boards that have
pretty official duties um
[13:36] uh and the likelihood that there's going
to be turnover amongst the board between
[13:41] meetings uh because of just kind of the
general makeup. I uh I I do see value
[13:47] probably in in having uh an an oath
being, you know, read or acknowledged at
[13:54] the beginning of of of hearings. Um and
and I do agree with you, Janet, that if
[14:00] we're going to make that commitment that
it should be represented
[14:04] uh in in the procedure so that we're
consistent about its verbiage and
[14:10] everything else. Um, so I guess I would
propose m maybe uh asking somebody to
[14:17] prepare some language to be adopted in
the procedures that we can vote on at
[14:22] our next convening. Um uh and then I
guess the only other uh question there
[14:28] uh about kind of validity uh would be um
would it be adequate for you know
[14:34] something like that to be read and
everybody to kind of in unison say say I
[14:41] um you know does that does that you know
is that sufficient um to be to be valid.
[14:49] So,
>> you [clears throat] know, yeah, the oath
[14:52] that we took as legislators, we all
stood there and raised
[14:55] » Yeah.
>> a right hand, but that was considered
[14:59] not the not valid. The the oath that was
valid was the one we signed. Um, had to
[15:05] sign one. And so the the the with the
hand up was ceremonial and it looked
[15:11] like
>> except [clears throat] it turned out to
[15:13] be your left hand if you were on
>> Zoom. Mhm.
[15:18] » Well, you and you all sign the or at
least the judge of the piece all sign an
[15:22] oath
>> um when they are elected and the select
[15:25] board like we all sign various oaths
when we are elected that are not the
[15:30] same oath as we've been using for
abatement hearings. Um the
[15:34] [clears throat] oath in question by the
way is I do solemnly swear or affirm
[15:38] that I will well and truly hear and
determine all matters at issue relating
[15:42] to the abatement of taxes and other
levies submitted for my decision. So
[15:46] help me God or under the pains and
penalties of perjury.
[15:51] » So can we make in the procedure the
requirement that I guess when when we
[15:56] have a new member of the board whatever
is going to trigger that they're going
[16:00] to sign that and then maybe it's just a
a reading um as like an acknowledgement
[16:06] at the beginning of a hearing just as a
reminder everybody who's serving in this
[16:09] role has signed an oath that expresses
as much. So then then we have the
[16:15] signatures that are that are captured
when a new member is installed and uh
[16:20] and then we have kind of more ceremonial
acknowledgement um at the beginning of
[16:24] the meeting.
>> I think that's a sort of a nice way to
[16:29] balance the various concerns. Um
>> yes.
[16:32] » Yeah. [snorts]
>> So Tegan, this is Barbara. For the
[16:36] purpose of your minutes, uh John was
sworn in.
[16:39] » Yes. But that was not this the oath that
I found in the BOA handbook. So just so
[16:45] you know, that's not the oath that John
took, but he did swear in this evening
[16:50] » as a witness.
>> Thank you.
[16:53] » As a witness. As a witness.
>> Sorry, I was delayed. Um there were no
[16:58] additional
candidates who came forward, but I was
[17:01] delayed and I missed the beginning of
the meeting. Um, so
[17:05] what I'm hearing at this point, and we
haven't made a motion, I don't need to
[17:09] know that we need to do that this time,
but that you would like me to bring back
[17:14] the rules of procedure
with an inclusion of
[17:20] reciting the hearing at the start of
every hearing. reciting the oath at the
[17:24] start of every hearing and then after we
are all elected the first the first
[17:30] meeting after we have all been reelected
or elected that we would all sign it at
[17:35] that particular meeting. Is that what
people are thinking?
[17:38] » I thought what Jordan said was to um
state that we had all taken the oath but
[17:44] not to take it at each meeting. But
perhaps I misunderstood Jordan.
[17:50] » It it was more a statement than
Then
[17:54] » yeah, I mean that's kind of semantics.
So what I had in mind was similar to
[17:59] what you know Tan was saying that we
that we just that we have an oath that
[18:03] we all sign it when there's a when
there's a you know point of installation
[18:08] um that and you know that that is then
being you know kept on file and then at
[18:13] the beginning of a hearing uh
the oath is read and you just have a ver
[18:21] verbal reminder that everybody present
has signed
[18:26] » was already done it. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Just read one time as a reminder,
[18:31] not read by everyone individually.
>> Yeah, that's that's what I understood.
[18:34] That that makes sense. Um yeah, I mean
the the advantage of that is if for some
[18:40] reason somebody forgets to do it, it's
not going to make a difference and uh in
[18:45] terms of the of the validity of what we
do. So [clears throat]
[18:50] » sounds good. Uh are people in agreement
that that's this is a good way to
[18:54] proceed? We don't need to vote on it
because we'll vote when we see the
[18:57] language. But um
>> people good with us.
[19:00] » Agree.
>> Good good discussion. Uh any other
[19:05] business that we uh need to deal with
before some of us move off
[19:12] here?
>> Uh I don't think so.
[19:14] » Okay. Uh so I'm going to say that we're
we are adjourned. Um
[19:22] good to see everybody. Uh, oh, wait a
minute. I may need to Somebody needs to
[19:26] write up the decision. Um, and I think
Tegan and I have usually worked on that.
[19:31] We'll circulate it, but I don't think
it'll be a complicated um letter. So,
[19:39] » so we'll do that.
>> Okay, great. Thanks. Bye, everybody.
[19:44] » Thanks.