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» [music]
» Good evening supervisors, staff, and guests.
Please sign in on your tablets.
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Everybody signed in? Okay, they are now. All right.
Okay. How many do we have present?
We got 14. 14.
We have 14 present. We have seven absent.
Please join me in the pledge of allegiance.
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the
republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and
justice for all. Thank you.
I may need a motion to approve the agenda.
All right, I have a motion by supervisor Miller and a second by supervisor
Elliott. There are no questions on the agenda.
Please vote your ballot.
All right, we have 14 yes, zero nay, seven absent. All right, moving on. You
have the minutes in your packet. Are there any questions on the minutes?
If not, I need a motion for that. Supervisor Diedrick and a second by
Supervisor McCann. All in
um Please vote your ballot.
Again, 14 yes, seven absent, so we still have a quorum.
All right, any communications? And we have one gentleman in public
participation, Mr. Fisher.
» Thank you. >> You're welcome. Uh my name is Kevin
Fisher. I am actually um have been on the Zoning Board of Adjustment for 16
years. But I just want to give a shout-out to
two of the people that were on that committee that retired lately,
uh Deb Reinhardt and John Cousin. Uh they were both on the committee when
I got on there, so they put in a lot more years than I've been on here
so far, so but I just wanted to give a shout-out to those people um
with all the knowledge that they provided,
especially when I first got on there, I didn't know what was going on and they
they helped walk you through things. Um
Deb, she actually printed up a a whole like little
well, it's a whole page full, but she read that every time before the the
hearing started, so the people knew exactly how to participate. And when
they voted me as chairperson, she actually gave me that and said, "Here,
Kevin, I won't need this anymore." So, so I use it I've only used it a couple
of times now, but it but it just comes in very handy. So,
um and John John just a just a a a wealth of knowledge as well because he
lives down by the lake and he's experienced a lot of these variances and
stuff. But the best thing about John is he's
just got this uh just this uh wit about him that he's
just it's just kind of neat to see. So, uh that was all I had. I just wanted to
give a shout out to both of those people for their many years of service. So,
thank you. >> And thank you, Kevin. Yes, both of them
have been here a while. [applause]
Okay, in special business, uh Chris Moyer, our director of
planning, zoning, and land information will present information about data
centers.
» Everybody, my name's Chris Moyer, county's planning, zoning, and land
information director. So, I was recently asked to give this presentation just on
data centers. Um it's been a hot topic in the state for the last couple of
years. and that a few of you have also gotten some questions too about them.
So, I just want to kind of give you a general overview about that.
So, taking a look at our agenda for the today then, um we'll be talking about
what a data center is, a little bit of the history of it, um why Wisconsin is
the current focus right now for data centers, uh looking at some challenges
as well as concerns uh just from a general land use perspective,
uh then taking a look at land use and zoning implications, uh as well as uh
general zoning jurisdiction and addressing data center questions that
you may be receiving from the public as well.
So, starting off really, what is a data center? So, a data centers uh they're
the physical features uh facilities that organizations and businesses use to
store, um process, as well as transmit digital
information. Looks like we lost the screen again.
Uh so, uh further getting into it, um really
it's uh consists of routers, switches, firewalls, um storage systems, servers,
and really other networking equipment. Um we see a lot of uh GPUs and CPUs are
the main focus on some of the larger type data centers now. They're the main
focus for development. Uh data centers have also um really been in use since uh
the 1950s. Uh we see that um good example would be
um the movie The Imitation Game if you're
familiar with that. Um really it was a large mainframe computer that they had
created for that particular situation. Um really used to kind of process uh
complex math equations uh to try and crack codes. So, little bit of
background on data centers. Um from a user perspective, um whenever you send
an email, um you open an app on a smartphone,
um or you stream a movie, store uh files on the cloud system, or really um use
even social media to uh do a post, that information itself is being processed
within a data center. Uh so, data centers really they're the core backbone
of really the internet and really how that functions.
Um within the United States currently, there are roughly 4,200 active data
centers Um and there are roughly 47 active data
centers in Wisconsin. As of October 25th, an additional 2,700 data centers
were being proposed in the United States and there were also an additional 43
data centers that are currently either in the planning phase or in production
phase in Wisconsin. Taking a look at some of the examples
that we have on the screen here, we see
the 1970s and 1980s depiction. That would be an example of what's an
enterprise level data system. This is something where you typically
have it's either within a room or small building. It's like a data closet from
that perspective. They really grew when you had companies
like IBM that were able to develop business grade servers.
These enterprise facilities are typically owned or operated by a single
company and they use it for their internal services.
This type of data center is still being used today. A good example of it locally
here would be within the courthouse as well. We have an active data center.
It's a large data closet. We've got smaller data closets that are also
located throughout the courthouse as well. All of them would really be
considered to be data centers. From our department's perspective as
well, within the land information side of things, we have our own GIS servers,
too. So, we would function really the same way
as a just a mini data center. Taking a look at our next examples on
there, we've got some co-location facilities. Those really became
prominent around the 1990s, early 2000s. So, they really started to see when
business and organizations really shifted from hosting services on site to
more offsite type locations that are owned by a third party third party
companies to operate these facilities. Really, as the name suggests, these are
really third party companies that have multiple businesses they're storing
their information and data within this singular location. And they really
became possible with the expansion of the internet and faster download and
upload speeds, part of the dot-com era. So, why would companies really decide to
use facilities such as this instead of hosting their own data? Uh, when we take
a look at the pros on their side of things, really it's the lower initial
cost. They don't have to pay for servers, they don't have to buy all the
equipment. They don't necessarily need to have the staffing as well to be able
to function. Um, it's easier to scale these type of facilities, too.
Um, the infrastructure really is managed by that third-party company, so you
don't have that, um, expense. Uh, there's built-in redundancy. There's
less cost to operate in general, and there um, better protection against
severe weather situations, um, or power outages from that
perspective, as well. Looking at some of the cons, though,
there's really less control over the system itself and how it functions. Uh,
they're typically more subscription-based systems right now is
what we're seeing, um, which can be more expensive really in the long run.
Um, there's also a dependency upon having an internet connection, so
obviously your internet goes down, you lose access then to your potential files
at that point. And it can also be more difficult to migrate platforms once you
already have selected a vendor. Um, from that perspective, as their back-end
systems don't always work together. Uh, when we look at the third example we
have on the screen here, this is more of a hyperscale facility.
Um, this is what we're seeing more so from the 2010s on to present. These are
large-scale systems that are being designed more as a campus style, really
with very large interconnected buildings taking up hundreds of acres.
Uh, several recent proposals in Wisconsin have been for this campus
style facility. Uh, they range from a few hundred acres to, uh, there's one
that's over 1,000 acres in size. Uh, these facilities are often owned by
the larger businesses. Uh, think of your Amazons, Microsoft, Google. Uh, and
they're needed to handle more cloud computing, AI, and just global internet
functions, as well.
So, why are we seeing more development in Wisconsin now? So, taking a look at
Wisconsin Act 2023, uh, excuse me, Wisconsin 2023 Act 19, which was the,
uh, biennial budget bill, really created a data center sales and use tax
exemption program for qualified facilities, really based on their total
investment as well as the county's population.
Uh so, um with this type of development for
County of Kenosha example here, because we've got just over 50,000 population,
we'd be in the 50,000 to 100,000 category. So, a facility they would need
to really invest over $100 million to qualify for this potential tax exemption
in Wisconsin. And these incentives have really helped drive the more recent wave
of development in data centers that we've seen the last couple of years
here. Uh the second reason why we're seeing
more development is just the decreasing electric and municipal water demand
across the state for the last two decades. So, Wisconsin, we have an
abundance of fresh water compared to other states, making it enticing for
developers to want to come here. Um decreasing usage rates and efficiency
improvements in both water and electric utilities have also
created additional capacity for utilities to take on higher demand uses.
Uh the argument being made is that since development has been Excuse me, since
demand has been decreasing, utilities have needed to increase the cost for the
average consumers to be able to keep up with infrastructure maintenance. Uh so,
they also argue that because they're less able to perform facility upgrades,
then because they have a decrease in revenue,
it's really leading to an aging infrastructure and a larger issue in
general. Uh with this type of development though,
comes the need for significant utility improvements above and beyond what
typical use cases that we see. For example, the Port Washington data center
needed the American Transmission Company to revamp their existing transmission
lines to force junction to the tune of about $1.2 billion to be able to meet
their proposed energy demands, which is what we're seeing running through the
county.
Uh other issues that we see as well that's bringing it to Wisconsin is just
lower land and operating costs compared to other states.
Uh Wisconsin's in the bottom third in the United States in terms of average
price per acre for land. Uh cooler temperatures as well for half of the
year can also improve cooling efficiency and reduce just the general operating
costs for some of these facilities compared to warmer climates.
Uh then taking a look at just our last point in here, proximity to major metro
area. So, data centers are often cited near major metro areas to reduce
latency. Um that's the delay between a user request and then a server response.
So, the further away that a data center is um to the end user, the longer that
the delay is. So, they try to build them closer as well as spread them out into
other areas throughout the country to be able to help reduce that latency that
they're seeing. It also uh provides some additional redundancy. So, if you've got
large natural disasters or other events that occur, a single facility going down
isn't going to shut down the entire network essentially.
They also do that too to try and help spread out water demand as well as just
electric demand across the grid.
Uh looking at concerns and challenges. So, the primary one that we've been
hearing um within the last year or so really is just high electric demand and
increased utility rates. Uh I'd say it's probably the number one concern that
we've been seeing. Um at the state level, uh there were a couple of bills
that were also proposed in January to try and address some of these issues. Uh
they were primarily focused on utility rates, water usage, and just cooling
methods in general for these types of facilities, but both of those bills
failed and they did not progress at the state level.
Uh even though the Public Service Commission does not directly regulate
data centers, that's handled at the local level, uh they do still have
control and authority to regulate utility rates.
Uh in April of this year, the PSC did approve a modified uh We Energies large
load tariff, which was intended to ensure that very large data centers,
including projects like the Port Washington data center, pay their own
utility related costs rather than shifting them onto the end consumers. Uh
similar action was also taken in May for an Alliant Energy project and it shows
that the PSC uh has a broader expectation that data centers and these
types of facilities are going to be bearing their own costs when it comes to
um utility related costs and projects really going forward. Um it's part of
these actions that they did though, it's not an all-encompassing action. Um for
the We Energies one, it did directly impact their large load tariff, which
does impact all projects that they have going forward. Um but for other ones it
did not impact that, so it's really viewed on a case-by-case basis for how
these are addressed going forward. But at least it's it's positive news coming
from the PSC that they're willing to to listen to constituents and see the
issues at hand.
Uh taking a look at our next issue, which is more water usage and cooling.
So water usage is often considered one of the uh more highly debated and
concerning topics surrounding data centers. Part of that's due to the
wide-ranging reports that we see in water usage for the facilities. Uh each
data center operates different based on how they're being utilized by their
parent company and how they're being cooled. Data centers that primarily
focus on data storage and cloud services compared to like AI services, uh they're
typically using significantly less um water from that perspective because they
don't need it. They're not generating as much heat as what an AI data center um
would be generating. The Environmental and Energy Study
Institute published an article in June of last year, which is taking a look at
data center water usage. They found that a medium-sized data center similar to a
colocation facility of 10 megawatts can consume roughly 110 million gallons of
water annually, which is equivalent to annual water usage approximately 1,000
households. A large data center such as a hyperscale
facility can consume roughly 5 million gallons of water per day or about 1.8
billion gallons of water annually, which is equivalent to a municipality of
30,000 people. So all of these uh factors are really
are dependent upon the size in megawatts of that particular data center and also
the type of cooling methods that they're using. Uh the Port Washington facility,
for example, will be roughly 900 megawatts in size, which is a very large
data center. Um it is 672-acre facility.
Uh the developers plan to use a closed-loop cooling system that will
have a peak daily water usage of approximately 22,000 gallons of water,
which is significantly less than the other examples that we were talking
about. Um this is lower primarily due to it
being that closed-loop style system, but the trade-off that you deal with the
closed-loop system is then your energy needs are significantly higher.
Uh that's why we see in some situations, um especially earlier on, they were
developing more um direct water um water-applied or
water-evaporation style systems because the water was cheap. Uh so, they would
try to go with the cheapest electric style option that they had. They would
use millions of gallons of water. Uh the water would just evaporate, um but their
energy demands were significantly less. Um because of public concerns and issues
that we've been seeing over the last couple of years, a lot of them are
trying to make that shift now towards the closed-loop systems instead uh to
try to address that. Uh part of the issues that we were also
seeing with that was water discharge, um which is also just a general concern.
Those older systems using the evaporation cooling towers, uh water
consumption was quite high in addition to that discharge rate. Uh the rate um
typically had higher concentrated minerals in it. They also had other
chemicals in it that were just a part of the maintenance process in general for
these facilities, um which are also obviously a fairly
significant environmental concern if it's being discharged to a local
waterway. Uh the more advanced uh more recent
systems like the closed-loop system at Port Washington eliminates that
particular issue. Uh so, it's really important when you start talking data
centers to focus on the type of cooling methods that are being proposed for each
particular facility um just to be able to determine what
potential water impacts that it has.
One of the other main concerns is always noise. Um noise is uh more of a concern
with these facilities because they have constant cooling, large backup power
sources in the event of an emergency. Uh so data centers um typically contain
HVAC systems, uh chillers, cooling towers, pumps, and just numerous
industrial fans. Um combined, these sources produce just a constant
background noise that um can impact adjacent properties.
Taking a look at just general background decibels in a rural uh residential area
at night is typically around 20 to 30 decibels, uh while urban neighborhoods
are usually around 35 to 40 decibels. Uh just for a point of reference, uh
normal conversation back and forth with someone would be around 55 to 60
decibels. Uh so data centers, they typically aim
for around 45 decibels. Um that's usually compatible with most municipal
noise ordinance standards. Uh you can also do conditional use
standards to potentially try to lower that uh to match surrounding
neighborhood um noise levels as well. Backup generators are typically one of
the um mostly conditioned noise standards with data centers. Generators
often exceed 100 decibels um in noise, so conditions are placed
upon them for when, how often, and um how long they can be tested for.
Obviously, emergency situations, they would have to be running, um but they
can potentially try to mitigate issues by putting them in locations that are
not going to have as much of an impact on potential um neighboring property
owners as well. Uh just because of the noise concerns
alone, um it's one of the main factors on why data centers are usually viewed
as more of an industrial-style use.
Taking a look at our fourth point here, uh which would be land space issues. So
hyperscale projects can vary greatly in size, like we already mentioned. Uh Port
Washington project, roughly 670 acres. The uh Beaver Dam project is uh just
over 500 acres. And uh with after several expansions, the Mount Pleasant
campus is over 1,300 acres in size. Developers are often looking for green
space to be able to develop these cities, which typically includes
existing agricultural lands. Uh farmland in general is obviously
available commodity, um but more so in agricultural
communities. Um so this results in increased costs of remaining
agricultural land, loss of productive farmland, and the fragmentation of
existing farmland as well. Some municipalities are starting to push
for a minimum floor area ratios to help reduce uh density sprawl on these data
center sites, which can then encourage them to try to build more vertically
instead of just sprawling out across the landscape.
Uh the last one I wanted to bring up then was uh vehicle traffic and road
wear concerns. Uh these are often concerns with data
center projects during the initial construction phase of the project
itself. Facilities um taking up hundreds of
acres, uh you're talking thousands of loads of gravel, rock, and just
concrete, and materials in general being brought to the site um to for
development. Obviously, this causes significant wear and tear on existing
roads. Um can be seen with the Port Washington
project as material was brought in from dozens of quarries across the state,
some of as far north as uh ones located in the town of Charlestown even,
to be able to meet their demands. So, these activities can significantly
reduce just their overall life expectancy of regional roads, um as well
as roads adjacent to the project in conditions that are often put in place
on them to try to address road damage and offset the cost to be able to repair
them.
Uh taking a look at land use and zoning implications.
So, due to the intensity of the use, most municipalities usually view data
centers as an industrial use. Some municipalities have also gone the route
of uh creating specific zoning districts for them uh to allow data centers.
Municipalities have decided to go this route due to the changes that were made
um with a conditional use permit process as part of the 2017 Act 67. Act 67
limited the power of local governments to
buy limited local governments by requiring
decisions to be based on substantial evidence. So, if an applicant is able to
meet all the particular standards and requirements that are labeled within the
ordinance and that the committee places upon it, the committee is then required
to grant that particular CUP. There's no discretion that's within that they have
to approve it. Map amendments or re-zones for
municipalities a little bit more discretion. If a proposed re-zone does
not match the comprehensive plan or is not consistent with surrounding land
uses, it's easier for a municipality to be able to deny that re-zone
compared to a conditional use permit, which is why they're creating these
additional zoning districts to put them in a separate category.
Most of the land under county zoning is designated as agricultural as well as
being located within farmland preservation certified districts. Within
those districts, the particular use for data centers is not actually a permitted
use. The Department of Agricultural Trade and
Consumer Protection provided this interpretation in one of the last
conferences that we went to. They wanted to make that specific
distinction that these are not utility grade facilities. These are a separate,
usually a private entity that's coming in. So, we have more discretion over
what can be permitted and what cannot be permitted with these uses, whereas
utility facilities would end up going to the Public Service Commission for
approval and we have very limited control at the local level.
Now, looking at other potential land use concerns, so while county said while the
county has several transmission lines and substations, the majority of our
regional water usage is sourced from local ground water.
Another way to be able to restrict the location of data centers would be to
require these facilities to be located on municipal water and sewer services.
The majority of our towns, with the exception of the Forest Junction area,
do not have a communal water supply uh requiring that such a facility be on
sewer and water would help reduce the potential impact and groundwater
drawdown on neighboring properties. And we're seeing that in some situations of
municipalities requiring that. A lot of situations we see as well is that these
developments, they may be occurring on fringe locations within townships, but
they're being annexed by cities and villages. So, in most cases, it's
occurring within cities and villages because they have the services um for
these particular facilities to function. And then the last point on here is just
the the county's uh current general zoning ordinance has standards really in
place to be able to address data centers.
Uh signing a new data center would likely
result in the conversion of several hundred acres of farmlands, and based on
our current comprehensive plan, it's really unlikely to meet the
justifications uh needed to convert such a large tract of land for this type of
use. Uh this request would also likely not be
approved by any of the townships under county zoning uh for failing to meet
consistency requirements between zoning ordinance as well as the comprehensive
plan. So, if a data center were to be approved
uh through the rezoning process in our jurisdiction, the use is still not
listed as an approved use in our zoning ordinance.
The county zoning ordinance is a permissive-based ordinance, uh which
means that unless the use is specifically listed in the ordinance for
that district, the use itself is not approved at all. It's not permitted.
Uh there's potential option in this situation where they could go with a use
not listed um section that we have, uh but these are viewed on a case-by-case
basis. They need to meet use-based consistency requirements to be even
considered. Um based on our current language, I feel like we're in a good
position to be able to address data centers.
Uh looking at general zoning by jurisdiction, a little bit of what we
talked about, just the general zoning ordinance um at the county level,
uh the standards that I mentioned would be in place within the towns of
Brillion, Charlestown, New Holstein, and Woodville. And all the text is a little
bit small on the map there, but those would be the communities that are in
green. The uh communities that are in yellow,
those would be ones that administer their own general zoning requirements
and are not under the county's general purview or jurisdiction, either.
So, for townships that are not in county zoning, the question will be based
really on the current zoning ordinances and their comprehensive plan.
So, all most of them did participate with the county in our comprehensive
plan update. We did identify some areas as transitional in the comprehensive
plan, which could include industrial industrial development. Potentially,
most of those areas are not large enough to support a hyperscale data center or
would conflict with the surrounding land uses and zoning districts in that area.
The town of Sack Bridge is the only municipality that does not have zoning
in the county, so there's little that could be done from a regulatory
perspective to be able to regulate a facility such as this.
I know that moratoria were, you know, another discussion point that has come
up recently, too. Enacting moratoria has been one of the
main ways that municipalities in the state have tried to put a temporary
pause on data center development. It's a practice that can use to delay the
process, so municipalities have time to come up with zoning standards for a set
period of time, but based on our current standards, like I said, I feel like
we're in a fairly good position and don't need to enact a moratorium at this
time. Also, a moratorium enacted at the county
level would only be applicable in the municipalities where we currently have
zoning jurisdiction. So, like I said, the four municipalities on there is the
only place where it would be even applicable. All the other
municipalities, the cities, villages, towns of Brothertown, Chilton, and
Rantoul, if we do a moratorium, it would not be applicable in those locations as
we do not have jurisdiction there. So, each municipality, they would have
to come up with their own moratorium language if that's the direction that
they want to go to be able to enforce that.
And then our last points here is just addressing data center questions in
general. So, a couple of key points just to focus on is don't over promise
county authority on projects just when talking with constituents. Uh like we
said, the county only has general zoning in four of our eight townships. So, our
authority is really limited from that perspective. We can't enact a a sweeping
ordinance to be able to limit something like this or to approve something like
this uh just because we don't have the authority to do that in those areas.
Another key point is just commitment to process transparency.
Uh so, if a project is in an area under county uh jurisdiction, we have specific
processes that are outlined in ordinance to be able to be transparent as well as
prior public hearings for the public to engage and interact with the process
itself. If someone does have a particular
question in mind, um they're more than welcome to contact the department. You
know, we're more than happy to answer any potential questions that people
have, address any concerns that they have. One of our main focuses is just to
help educate the public so that they're, you know, more understanding of um what
our uh requirements, what our ordinance language says, and all that, just um be
more transparent with the public in general.
And uh just a general statement, too, that we have on here is uh just because
the the county is a mixture of county zone areas and municipalities that have
their own authority, uh there's not one single answer that um for every proposed
site. Uh residents really deserve a clearer um explanation of which body
would review a specific land use issue, uh what other permits would be required,
and where the public can participate in that particular process. So, residents
are really urged to uh directly contact their local municipalities if they have
any questions about a particular project or really what that review process looks
like because it's really it's on a case-by-case basis, and it may be a
different municipality what they think of would actually regulate it.
» Are there any questions with this?
Please um press your [clears throat] request to
speak.
Ryan, Supervisor Cole.
You had a question. >> No.
» No.
Us. >> Machesky, Supervisor.
» Supervisor Machesky. >> I just wanted to clarify. So, we
currently have one in our county. >> So, we have the one that is actually
here in the courthouse. There's also one that is in Harrison that is more of a I
wouldn't say quite a co-location style, but it's a larger facility.
Those are the only ones that I'm aware of. You know, obviously most businesses
have some form of that, but it's their own personal use. The only active larger
one would be the one in Harrison. >> Okay. And that one, based on your
presentation, would have been approved by the village of Harrison and the
county wouldn't have had any say in that.
» Correct. Yep. >> Do you have any specs on like kind of
what they use at that facility? >> We weren't involved in any of that
process, so we're not really privy to any of the information that they had. It
would be whatever they have publicly available. Like I said, we we just
weren't involved in that one. >> Thanks for the presentation. I really
enjoyed learning about it. >> Yep.
» Supervisor Williams. >> Matt.
Yeah, thanks for that. I appreciate the detail. Um, do you have a quantifiable
sense of scale for the current existing active data centers throughout the state
and how that compares to some of the the hyperscale projects that are being
proposed? I assume we don't have anything hyper yet in the state.
» We do. Yeah, we actually have several online. Yep, there's the Port Washington
one, which that's the 560-ish acre size one.
There's also the Mount Horeb, Mount Pleasant
Madison area. That one is 1,300 acres in size. So, that's a I think that one is
over 2,000 megawatt capacity, which is extremely large facility that we would
typically see. The next largest one is that Port
Washington one, which is less than half that size in capacity. [clears throat]
And that's still considered to be a hyperscale facility. The image that I
had up a bring that up here for you guys. This is
actually a rendering of what the Port Washington facility looks like. It's a
four different core areas, different buildings. That's more that campus
style. That's that hyperscale facility. >> Do you know other than the hyperscale
what the kind of megawattage is throughout the rest of the state? I
mean, is that one in Mount Horeb twice the size of everything else? You know, I
know that hyperscales are really on another level. Is it something along
those lines? >> I would say that facility itself
probably makes up 2/3, if not 3/4 of the overall capacity, just in data centers
in Wisconsin in general. Um, just because like I said, the next largest
one is not even half that size in capacity. And those are really some of
the major ones. Uh, the Beaver Dam project, I believe is even half the size
of the Port Washington one as well. Um, so they're starting to make that
shift towards some of these larger ones um, in our area. Um, it just hasn't been
as common here. I know West Virginia, Virginia area, um, they're more
considered to be kind of like the the main hub for data center developments
um, out there. So, they've got significantly more development going on
over there. >> Supervisor Miller.
» My my connector's not working. So, thank you, Madam Chairman.
Yeah, I have some questions. Um, being from the older group, uh, the
DNR back in the '70s and '80s was all concerned about
digging too close to navigable streams. You take about the Hayden swamp, they
did everything to keep the farmers from plowing too close and navigable streams.
I even had one. They tried to make mine a navigable stream, which is a mud hole.
It was a pasture land that I bought with a home at and it's not. So, I dug a pond
in '02. But, from the '70s to '02, things really changed. Why did the DNR
not go to sleep and let these people take navigable streams down at Beaver
Dam and Port Washington? People that lived there that have been living there
40, 50 years, they closed off navigable streams and they're building on it.
Other concerns, I've been to some of these demonstrations and these
information meetings. Other concerns are why aren't they building the buildings
higher to take less land? Same thing it should have been with high schools ever
since the '80s. You got fat kids running around school, but they don't even have
to go up and down stairs. Okay? You could put in elevators, okay?
All right, the other concerns are you need to let people know. Town of
Greenleaf kicked them out a year and a half ago. Kewaunee kicked them out a
year ago. Because I've been kind of busy with my wife's funeral stuff, I don't
know what Wrightstown is doing, but there was pretty good opposition there
and I'm and I sent them some documents of people up there.
And the other thing is is Canada going nuts with this too or not? Do you know?
» I haven't heard anything. Just something like that on the Canadian side of it.
» it in Africa or South America or Australia. Why here?
Somebody is making a mint out of this. The last part is
I have some farmer friends that own acres in Brown County.
Three or four years ago they weren't saying they were buying the land for
data centers, but they came around and two both these farmers said, "When you
connect everybody around here, all the farmers including in my 360 and my 180,
then I'll come and consider selling to." They never got more than two land owners
out of probably about 22 or 24 to compare. So they washed. They never said
it was about data centers, but the deception was there, okay? So we need to
stop it. Uh back in my the planning and zoning last year, I threw tried to get a
proclamation through that we keep them out of Calumet County. Pretty interested
in good old Samaria. People that come from Chicago, they love it up here going
north. You know what I mean? You're rubbing that all out and you're letting
them build these data centers. So I say stand up. Opposition. Veterans are all
against this all across the country and they could care less about a lot of
veterans. 440,000 in California alone choose to be homeless. They don't want
nothing to do with the government. Thank you for hearing me, Madam Chair.
» Um I have a question. Um I've read many studies about the
shortage of water >> Yep.
» as it comes into the future. Um are these data centers recycling
their own water or where are they going to get all the water that's demanded for
their operation? Do you know that? >> Yeah, so a lot of them are going more
towards that closed-loop style system. Uh which that closed-loop system is
using significantly less water than what some of the older ones were where I said
some of the older larger ones were using, you know, millions of gallons a
day. Um the Port Washington project itself is using roughly 22,000 gallons
and they say that's not even part of their cooling. That's just part of their
general operations because they have almost 400 employees a part of it.
They're saying that uh they're not adding anything directly um from a
cooling perspective water input to that for the Port Washington project.
» I know there's a lot of concern there about water usage and I certainly would
be concerned because in any dry areas, even in our area, water is
really scarce. >> Yep, and that's why they've started to
make that um shift more towards that. But like I said, you you'd end up
dealing with those trade-offs then because now you're using more energy
because it's that closed-loop system compared to using more water. Um just
with the methods that they use now. >> Okay, thank you, Chris. Any other
questions? >> Just ma'am.
» Oh. So okay.
» Okay, thank you, Madam Chairman. More information. I've been on sites in Texas
where they're laying the pipe. I know people that are responsible for laying
so much length of pipe, so many sizes of pipe. They have certain number of wires
that have to go in and I asked them, "How do you get the wire to go through
when you got these 200 ft of pipe?" They say you take Walmart bags and a
compressor, you tie a string to the Walmart bag, suck it through, and then
they tie the wire on it and run it through with a rope. That's how they're
building them. 900 acre site I was on last summer about this time of the year.
I got pictures. They go down 8-10 ft. They level everything where they connect
the pipes through and then they come along and everything's there. They throw
some rock on it and then they cement 4 ft high by 6 ft wide these ditches
and then they put a back cover on it. But all that water that is run through
there to do that, that's why I'm saying they're closing up navigable streams.
And guess what? Texas has no lakes. There's no lakes in Texas. If you play
play a little bit of trivia, you'll find out all real fast.
There's no lakes in Texas. All they got is the ocean. So, that is really a
problem there. And we've been dry around here, haven't we? The little blessing we
got this morning, I was biking at 3:30 this morning. Thank you. Thank you. I
think my wife sent it. Thank you. >> Thank you, Supervisor Miller. Any other
questions? All right. Supervisor Supervisor Macheski.
» Yes, sorry. Just to follow up on your point. Um is that accurate from your
understanding that there were changes where
I don't want I don't want to use your terms there that streams are being
I guess allowed to be converted that weren't in the past.
» That's more on the the DNR side of regulation.
There's been some I would say significant changes just in the DNR just
over the last decade or so. More so from conservation to
development. So, it could be something that they're
doing, but again, that's all in the DNR's purview. I haven't seen it
directly myself, but I've heard similar things that Joe has been mentioning as
well. >> And then I guess as a I don't know if
this is kind of in your area or not. Obviously, we've talked about that the
public can get together and say we don't want this in our community. I'm sure
that the companies would say that there's a lot of benefits to having
these and we need these to further technology and everything else. If you
have somebody who is maybe against having this in their community or is
worried about the the scale, is there anything that you would recommend the
average person do to take I guess personal action or is it something
that's such a global scale? Like for example, right? Like I can drive an
electric car, but if a billionaire is taking their jet every single day, what
kind of personal impact am I making? Would you say it's something on that
scale or are there actionable things everyday people can do?
» Yeah, I would say it's so integrated within our current system now just
because really it's the backbone of how the internet itself functions. So,
I I you need data centers to that you know, certain extent, but it's been more
of the development recently just with AI tools and everything else that is why
we've been seeing this more major shift. Um so, that's that's part of it. Um you
know, use of AI obviously then spurs additional buildings being constructed,
additional data centers. Um you know, so that's something, you know, if you're
not interested in using AI or you don't want to use it, um you know, that's a
particular approach that individuals could take um from that perspective. Um
like I said, I don't know if there's really a, you know, a large, you know,
one thing that could particularly be done um for use cases like this.
» Thank you. And then just one last clarification. So, if they're using less
water and using more energy, I would assume that's a non-renewable source of
energy then that they're pulling >> So, we've been seeing a couple different
examples. Um I don't know that the one of the nuclear power facilities that um
Jonas Salk on Michigan that they had shut down.
Yeah, they were talking about starting that one back up again and with that
one, they would actually put a data center on the front end um before the
energy actually gets put out to the grid. So, it actually would power the
data center first and then the energy would go out to the grid because it
would be using so much energy. There's been a few other cases, one in Iowa, I
believe it was a Google facility there that they were also planning to start up
a nuclear facility, too, to be able to power a data center.
So, they're taking a couple different approaches um to be able to do it.
» Supervisor McCann. >> Uh thank you, Madam Chair. I I'm just
curious, Chris, is there a a design or a size or a
uh type of data center that you could see
being appropriate for Calumet County? I mean, I you talked a lot about the huge
data centers and other things. Is there a
a business that could move to uh Calumet County that would attach
itself to a data center that we would find,
you know, fitting in with the landscape and with the general
population? >> Yeah, I mean, more like the typical
co-location size that we see that is more around the you know the 10 to maybe
100 MW capacity where maybe we're talking under 100,000 square feet for
some of these facilities. Even like the Harrison example, too, you
know, how many people actually knew that that was a data center that was there?
You know, not many people really know that.
So, more of the that particular size probably fits more for our landscape and
makes more sense with some of the models that they're trying to do, too, where
they're promoting to have more facilities so that you have more
redundancy. You've got more protections from, you know, natural disaster events.
You know, that may be something that is more palatable, I think, just to the
general public, even not just County Macoupin, but just Wisconsin in general.
» Yeah, I I and I think that's one of my concerns is that you create a
kind of a boogeyman nature to these things that that may or may not be
appropriate for what we need in our county to develop.
» Yep.
» Okay, thank you. Well, all right, one more time, Mr.
Miller. >> Chairman,
addressing the water issue, I picked up articles from down as far as
Dodgeville papers and stuff. When they when they clean up these areas, they
clean up the navigable streams, be glad that the water will come back with the
tungsten, the zinc, the lead, and graphite that comes back, it will kill
the sheep, it will kill the horses. They're all it's all ground fine. It it
can't blow in the wind cuz it's tough to attach to ground, okay? So, where do the
poisons go? Air, the water, or the ground, okay?
The Amish have a very strong upfront on this. You won't see them in Ohio or
Pennsylvania, even in parts over like Wittenberg. The the Amish are on top of
this. You're not coming here. And they're getting some respect, and
they're they're they're letting people know. So, if we continue to drag our
feet and don't do something, as I advocated 4 months ago, ban them from
here, they'll fold up and go away, but their top dogs will always change
wherever from where China or Korea, or they're from, they'll always change and
they'll come attract you because it's they're the ones that are making the
money and they're ruining our local landscapes. Enough is enough is enough.
Thank you. >> Okay. Uh supervisor
» Yeah, just one more. Uh so if they're moving towards uh more closed loop
systems instead of the evaporative cooling,
the evaporative cooling leads to that going to the air because of the phase
change from water to you know moisture to to air and all that, does that lead
to the closed closed loop system releasing more heat into the ecosystem
via the water because of that cooling system instead of the air? Does that
have some other unintended effects as well?
» Yeah, I I think that's one of the the main factors that they end up dealing
with. Uh same thing with the evaporative cooling, too. Uh they end up dealing
with what's called blow down, which is where they end up cleaning out some of
those systems because they're dealing with that high concentration now. You've
gone from having um say 100 gallons, um the evaporation would take up roughly 75
gallons of that, then you've got 25 gallons that are remaining, and that is
more concentrated minerals and just everything else that's, you know,
involved in it. So really, you know, you've got the trade-off and with both
of these particular systems, you know, which one's better?
You know, I don't know if you're looking more at the water conservation side,
obviously the closed loop style systems, but you've got that trade-off just in
energy consumption and just general heat output, too.
» Okay. That's it. Thank you.
A lot of questions, a lot of concerns. All right.
The next on list Todd Romenesko, county administrator, and he's going to present
how county finances shape Wisconsin human services.
» Good evening. So this is intended to be one of about
three um
sessions that we're going to have with the county board in an effort to provide
some education regarding overall county budgeting hopefully prior to your
November action uh on the county board vote for the budget. So, we've heard
over the years from board members that it's complex, it's confusing. So, um the
finance director Mike Stegbauer and I have put together um
different trainings uh to provide that information allowing you some time to
kind of digest this um section by section.
Um and hopefully also clear up some of the confusion that um some of your
residents have had regarding tax bills and tax rates and things like that.
So, um I'm hoping this will be informal. So,
you'll just raise your hand. We will forego the um select the button for now
so it could be interactive as questions come up.
Um as I was preparing this I was thinking
about um in 2003 when I was the deputy director for human
services. In that fall of that year I prepared a
budget that I thought was a strength-based budget, data-driven,
uh responsible for um the county citizens.
And that was in preparation for 2004.
In January of 2004 that year we had two juvenile delinquents some board members
will remember when this happened. Two juvenile delinquents that were on
our caseload threw a large rock through a speeding vehicle.
And the judge dealt with them harshly and
sentenced them to Lincoln Hills. And
for a county budget for Lincoln Hills at the time I can't even tell you for sure
what the amount was for one youth to be sentenced to Lincoln Hills. That was all
paid by county dollars. Today,
um that's $468,000
that the county pays out of our tax levy for the one youth.
And I found myself that year in front of the county board, never
having done that before, because my director conveniently was on
a trip to Ireland when I needed to ask for money
because we knew the budget was going to be blown.
Over time, we prepare for one of those kids, maybe. But to try to prepare for
youth that are unknown to us at times to commit a crime and be sentenced doesn't
make any sense. So, it's very important for county board
members to understand the impact that that has on county finances, things that
are in our control, things are that aren't in our control.
» Um >> And nobody did anything wrong in that
instant except for the kids. Right? We prepared a budget that was
responsible. Our staff followed the law. We could arguably the court made the
right decisions, let's say, by these two youth um by sentencing them.
Um but the budget was blown. So, it's important for
human services directors and county board members across the state to
understand um how that works, why that is, and if there's anything we can do
about it.
Um [clears throat] so, the objectives for today
or tonight, cuz I'm assuming um none of you would consider yourselves
experts in human services funding or county funding, right?
So, there's always a little something to learn. Yeah.
So, we will have um an understanding of Wisconsin county revenue structure,
which is important across all departments.
Um we'll identify pressures that are unique to your human services
departments. And we'll explore strategic responses
like what are you going to do about it um and why we need to do something about
it.
And because there was such interest in the data center in the interest of time,
I'll try to keep this high level, but I won't spend a ton of time on a lot of
these slides. Um so why the why do we face the
structural mismatch is what I decided to call that for the um
for this presentation that it's not a management problem. What I should tell
you is this will also be in prime time at the WCA conference. So I've been
asked to present this at a session on Monday, so you can feel free to skip or
if you want to really get a deep dive, you can come to that one as well.
Um so I like to say that it's not a management
problem always. It's not always a management problem. There are certain
things that we can do to try to manage expenses in certain areas within human
services budgeting, but we live within this structural contradiction.
We live within levy limits. We live within these mandates and it's important
for us to know that we didn't create it. We can only manage so much within it.
Um but what do we need to do to be uh in front of this as far as state
legislature goes and in front of county boards. So I do this for human services
directors across the state. I've been at county boards in Eau Claire,
Langlade, Lincoln, I forget where else because county human services directors
say I don't know what to do to educate my board. They look at me like I need to
be within my budget and say how can you possibly come to a county board meeting
without a balanced budget. So, this is why we need to talk about it
and make sure that um we all understand.
So, the structural mismatch. So, on the costs and demand side,
some of this will be familiar to some of you.
Service demand increases. So, that's not just unique to human services. That's in
other areas. The public demands certain things um of us of counties.
Um but we say that our client acuity is rising, also. And I've been doing this
for almost 30 years, and I have seen far higher level of
acuity with our patients than I've ever seen before, much more difficult.
Uh placement costs are accelerating. So, we experience inflation
in human services, counties. So, of course, providers.
Providers have to pay people. Providers have to build buildings. So,
the inflationary impact they pass on to us, of course. We pay for placements for
individuals within our human services departments that were required to pay
for. Uh workforce costs are climbing. You
know that. You voted on budgets, wondering about health care costs,
um advocating sometimes for uh competitive wages so we can maintain the
workforce that we have, but it costs us money to do so.
Um crisis response. So, human services crisis response is expanding.
Um we're required to do more in crisis than we had been before.
Um our mandates are growing. So, I spent a little bit of time with
the human service health and human services board
um with some new members going over just what mandates are. And all of the
mandates that we're responsible for. And if I would have done the same thing 10,
15 years ago, there would have been fewer.
So, they are growing and we talk about the unfunded mandates that exist within
human services and it's a reality. And I actually do have that same mandate and
revenue document cuz I think I've been doing it for about 15, 20 years. But
there are more of them that exist. Um the revenue authority is flat.
So, um those who have been on the board a
long time or spent some time paying attention to what our levy limits are,
our levy is tied to net new construction. So, you'll hear that, see
that presented multiple times. You get no more funding, right? You're
not going to be able to tax for more on the levy. That's it. It's net new
construction, so it's flat. Shared revenue incremental growth.
So, we did have some progress on shared revenue in 2023.
I testified with Jonathan Delagrave, the county exec from Racine and the county
exec from Winnebago, Jon Damon at the time, pushing for legislation to um pass
the shared revenue change. And we got it, but honestly, when we
were there, we were talking to ourselves saying, "Well, this is all we're going
to get right now." We need more, but we're going to take
this little step with the legislature um because it's better than nothing. And it
does it's tied to inflation a little bit.
Uh but I think for Calumet County last year or for this budget,
shared revenue because of that bill may be increased for us by about 30 to
40,000 dollars in our total budget.
Um state allocations are categorical um and slow.
And what I mean by that is the state ties specific things to our funding.
Requires us to spend it only on this, which then as you can imagine ignores
where maybe some of our increases are coming from.
Medicaid, [clears throat] I won't get into the difficulty around
Medicaid. It's an opportunity, certainly.
We have had some wins. That's a a revenue that we can try to generate. Um
but there's a risk with it. Uh and county boards around the state are leery
of trusting their leadership in human services because a lot of times what it
takes to get Medicaid dollars is staff. And county boards are conservative
saying, "Okay, so you're losing money, but you want to add staff when the
county administrator is standing in front of us saying staff is the most
expensive thing that we have." So, it doesn't really always make sense to an
elected official, right? So, there it's opportunity to build those revenues, but
it's it's a risk that people have to be willing to take.
And there's no stabilization mechanism. There's nothing that addresses when we
have things that go up our costs go up. There's no revenue to generate to really
stabilize in emergencies such as the Lincoln Hills placements that I
described. >> [clears throat]
» So, the revenue tools in counties and why they fall short. So, here's the
brief history lesson of county funding in Wisconsin,
if you didn't already know. In the 1990s,
which is when I started in Calumet County,
we had rising property tax era is what I decided to call it on here because it's
true. Everything we did was tied to the
property tax because that's all we had.
So, county boards were able to spend what they need, respond to urgent needs
within human services by taxing your property taxpayers.
Now, that was very, um,
I would say varying across the state depending on the county board.
Right? So, some county boards were willing to put more money in certain
things and some were not. Some were choosing to do that in law
enforcement and sheriff's office and some were willing to do it in the human
services area. But, regardless, it was all on the property taxpayer.
Um, I list things here, you know, that there were no statutory caps, so we
could fluctuate based on need. Um, flexibility existed for us within the
overall county budget, so we didn't have to do things that way. We didn't have to
send unreasonable amounts to the taxpayer because you guys have to run
for office. So, it still needed to be somewhat reasonable, but it did exist
with flexibility for us to respond to those high needs.
The 2000s, uh, is when levy limits started to emerge. So, the state started
looking at this saying, "The state of Wisconsin puts too much on the property
taxpayer. We have to address that in some way."
So, they started putting caps on what we could generate for revenue
and didn't change the mandates.
So, the state was intended to fully fund county human services.
There's nobody around probably that really remembers that that was the the
the way it all started is that these certain dollar amounts, um,
not just the levy, but contracts that they had with
counties was intended to fully fund place placements like Lincoln Hills.
Was intended to fully fund anything we needed to do with our human services and
they began realizing that they couldn't
afford it as a state. Uh, so they started passing that on to
the counties. Shared revenue was created in 2000s as
well. And it exists, but it doesn't really
move with anything. It doesn't grow with inflation, the 2000s version.
And then in 2011, we had Act 10. So, some of you
remember that, were affected by that professionally or otherwise.
Uh certainly I remember that. It became a time when the county had much more
flexibility around unions and how we paid staff and
what we were required to do or what they were required to do, but it allowed for
some flexibility, but it also created a completely different competitive
workforce. And in 2023, as I just described, the
shared revenue reform occurred. Um but it also came with some categorical
restrictions. I don't know how many of you have
actually really looked at the impact of the
um shared revenue reform bill in 2023.
Don't have to be embarrassed to not raise your hand, but I know that you
were all supportive of it, right? Because it gave us some money.
But what it also did was it created all kinds of requirements for us
that said, "Well, you're only going to get this money if you agree to take over
a service from somebody else." So, what require it would require us to,
for example, if we wanted to do public health for the city of Appleton,
we would qualify for additional revenue under the shared revenue reform. Do you
think the city of Appleton's going to want to give us public health?
» No. No.
» And so, we hear often times from our state legislature, "Why aren't you
taking advantage of it? Why aren't you taking advantage of it?" Like this was
the this was the thing that was going to save us all kinds of money. Like we
could give our services to somebody else to run.
And they could get money or we could take it and run it. So, it's in theory,
it's not a bad idea, but it's still your taxpayer's money.
So, there's a parochial element to that that's always going to exist unless we
do something drastically different. But, that that did not
answer everything that we needed answer. Uh property tax limits levy limits the
core constraint this just shows you and you've heard it from me year after year
after year Cali Mac County's typical levy growth
because we are growing. We are one of the lucky ones.
And we're still only at 2.5 2.8 One lucky year, I think I can
remember we were at 3%. So, that's as much as we're going to
get. Um and that's on a really good year. Our neighbors last time did not
fare as well. I think they were less than 2% around the lake with Fond du Lac
and Winnebago. Uh disappointing because it's all tied to the net new
construction. This is important because of course our
health and human services cost of inflation is closer to 7%.
So, revenue flat costs are going up. The levy relief for crisis years is 0%.
So, it doesn't matter if we're in crisis. Doesn't matter if we have high
costs. Um those revenues are not going to
adjust with what we have going on.
I wanted to make sure you saw the inflation versus the net new
construction. Um I do put this in your budget
packet every year because I it's just an important visual
for you to understand that the county net new construction, that orange line
is better that's why I'm saying we're one of the
lucky ones than the gray line on the bottom which is your Wisconsin overall
Wisconsin net new construction, which is flat.
You look at the blue line, those are annual CPI.
And the reason I I like and hate this slide is because people misconstrue the
ending, the '24 '25 as if oh, that gap's gotten smaller.
It It really hasn't. The hurt on CPI occurred
'20, '21, '22, '23. It's not growing as fast, but the impact
is still there on our expenses. We didn't get less expensive.
I mean, things aren't drastically going down. I know everybody's excited about
gas prices, but we don't all of a sudden say, oh, we're paying less for health
insurance, or we're paying less for our employees, or we're paying less for
providers. That's not the way it works. So, this is just a very good visual for
everybody to understand. Levy limits are not sustainable
when your human services department is mandated to provide service.
Shared revenue and state aids, incremental gains, structural gaps. So,
this is just another way to show you that
the levy shared revenue growth small. We made some minor gains with the
shared revenue reform. That's what you see in '23 '24.
But your your HHS expenditures continue to
grow beyond the revenue amounts.
I wanted to put sales tax on here. It's not always It's not as relevant for
Calumet. But across the state, if you don't know
this, most counties that had sales tax that
have had it forever pay for operations.
I would tell you that's not a sustainable model. It's not a good idea,
but they did it many, many years ago out of need because the levy limits
occurred. They were already beyond what they could pay for. Calumet, what I else
I'll give all the credit to everybody that I inherited it from, had a fiscally
conservative board that really maintained a very good
balance for us to come in and then make sales tax only about capital projects,
not about operations. So, this is not intended for you to
think, "Oh gosh, now he's thinking operations should be paid with sales tax
money." That's not that at all. But, it is the reality across the state
except for the few of us that were around the lake and Waukesha,
I think was one that didn't. Um they are in an advantage
per se over us uh because they're taking those sales
tax dollars and applying them as they need because it grows with inflation.
You've seen our sales tax number. It's pretty good.
Um but, this is a reality across the state in other counties that human
services face in county boards have to decide how to apply those sales tax
dollars cuz they actually will pay for people, positions, placements, things
within HHS.
So, there's a there's a structural divide there as well.
I talked a little bit about Lincoln Hills. It's important for you to
understand the mandates at a very high level.
I just need you to know all of the things that you see on this slide right
now are what we pay attention to on a regular basis because these will break
the budget. Uh we may come in like I did in 2003 and
think we have a good plan. We have one placement for Lincoln Hills and other
placements that are necessary, but we don't control where people move,
where they decide to live. So, a very expensive
youth or an adult could live in Fond du Lac, Manitowoc, Winnebago, Sheboygan,
Milwaukee and move here and they are now our financial
responsibility and I never even knew they were existed.
How many people remember Ray Brock, County Board member?
» Ray Brock. >> Ray Brock was the one at that meeting in
2003 that said and he was a he was a good
friend of my dad's. He pointed at me and he said, "You
should have known with today's technology." Now, this is
2003, okay? With today's technology, you should have known that that was going to
happen. And I said, "Based on what? The
actuaries that we have trying to help us to determine we're a county, we're not
an insurance company, right?" But it just it just showed me that we have a
lot to teach and to say that, "Well, I couldn't I
can't even predict who's going to move here."
And we have had that within the last couple of years where we've had very
expensive people relocate to Calumet County and they're on your dime.
Uh and you're obviously not going to say, "Well, you should move back or find
a way for it." We don't play those games ethically or morally. We're going to
provide the service that's mandated, but we don't control where they move. So, it
becomes a very tricky situation.
Yeah. >> [laughter]
» So, uh we also don't control the courts. You know, the courts make decisions. I
got the call I think it was last week.
Uh one of our youth committed a serious crime.
The um District Attorney's office called and said, "Well, I want you to hear it
from me directly that I am going to recommend that we blow your budget
because there's a placement that needs to occur at Lincoln Hills with a young
man and probably his brother, so that's two possibly.
Um and we don't have any control over that
and it's hard for us to go before a judge and recommend something else in
certain situations when it's just dangerous for the individual to be in
the community. We try, um, but we don't have control
over the court's decision. I tell that to the judge often. I said, "You're the
judge. We have We don't have to like your
decisions, but we have to live by them, follow them, and in some instances we
have to pay for them as well financially."
Um, mental health cases in-patient costs aren't as bad, but there's a funding gap
for crisis. Um,
law enforcement is affected by human services, um, if funding is an issue and
staffing is an issue because they're the guys that are out there with our mental
health patients, assessing for safety, waiting for us to find placements in
hospital settings that are virtually impossible to get,
um, if they're unwilling to take an individual.
Um, workforce economics, that I think you're familiar with. Um, health care
costs, uh, drive what we do. Um, we had this year was the first year
that I think I've been doing this job that it's been a 0% increase.
Um, which I mean, saves saves us a lot of money. We didn't get a reduction, but
it's better than the 10, 12, you know, 15% increases we've been experiencing.
This is out of the green book. So, I've showed this So, if you haven't
seen the green book yet, you will. Everybody will get one. We,
um, talk from some of the items within the green book
at budget time. I have shared this slide with county
boards when I've presented human services funding. This one's probably
really hard for you to see. But,
I re- I rearranged it with the permission of
um Forward Analytics who puts the book out. I called and said, "I want to
rearrange the slide because I want to show lowest per capita
to highest per capita because every time I've gone to a county board
where they've been struggling with human services financing they want to know
"Why does Racine have it all figured out and only pays $161 per capita? And
what's wrong with Menominee when it's $799
per capita?" So, this only tells you one like
Yeah. James is like, "Yeah, right. You were
there."
Exactly. Right. >> [laughter]
» Yes. So, it doesn't tell the whole story.
Right? We're always in the middle. We're about 387. I don't know what we are in
here. 378 transposed. 378 on this one. So, this just tells a little bit of a
story. It doesn't tell the whole story. You understand that with data of all
sorts, right? So, different things within tell a different story, but what
board member what jumps out at board members or what jumps out at the public
is, "How can this be less money? How can this be less expensive?" Um
and across the state human services accounts for about 1/3 of the entire
county budget county by county. It's it's the most volatile and the most
expensive thing that you have going. And it's
seriously affected by how counties are funded in the state of Wisconsin. And
it's important for you just to have an understanding of that and then what we
can do about it. Here's something you're also you see this one every year from me
at budget time. And I show this to human services
directors because I think sometimes human services gets a bad rap because of
mandates. You can set a budget for the sheriff's office
and they can pretty much keep it. Stick to it.
Uh because it's really mostly staff. I mean, we made the decision on the jail
and that's an expensive venture, but we knew it. Certain fixed costs are going
to go with that. But their staffing, unless there's significant overtime, but
that's typically because they're lower staffed overall.
So, they have to make up for it in corrections or on patrol. But it's a
pretty fixed amount. But typically, they cost you more on the total tax levy.
Um so, they're 8 and 1/2 million. Health and Human Services here is 5 million.
That's assuming that HHS doesn't jump up another million dollars
above budget because of those Lincoln Hills placements.
So, what happens?
Yeah, go ahead.
Yes. It's now $1,268
per day per child or per youth. The state legislature
in this budget wanted to at least double that rate.
Which would have busted many counties financially. So, when our legislators
come here like Ron Tusler and I tell them, "Do you realize what
that's doing?" Cuz that's a state facility. So, they're they're paying
themselves. But we're paying them the additional
rate. So, Governor Evers vetoed it thankfully
and kept us at the rate we're at now. That's the same amount we were before.
Their costs are up. Um they
just like anything else, right? It's dangerous. They've had some major
uh crimes occur with staff and against
staff. Physical,
uh I know of a man that worked there that had a brain injury because of being
attacked by a youth. So, it becomes
not so popular to say we're not going to pay for the higher costs,
but we're at We won this one. Um
if we didn't have to have them to that extent and the state could figure out
how to do it, it would be better. We've pushed back
about why are we paying for it. We've pushed back about you need to pay for
Meet us halfway, pay for more. And this is all funded This is in the weeds a
bit, but it's all funded by youth aids, which
was supposed to pay 100% of our costs, never has since I've been here, and it
is the worst funding uh that we've ever received as counties
for um corrections type placements. It's
It's just not grown. The state's unwilling to move it up in any way.
Did you have a question?
That's been going on probably for 12 years or more.
Yep.
Well, so we were We were slotted to have one
in our area in Brown County, and then Brown County got us all
together and said, "Okay, who's willing to do this and participate?" Well, they
wanted us to to pay for it. And I was I was one that was unwilling,
and then eventually Brown County became unwilling to do so.
Um I think the intent of that was to get the youth
in facilities closer to their homes. Uh because connection to their parents
and their family and improving things, as you know, gets them home sooner and
uh changes behavior, you would hope. The real intention of Lincoln Hills is a
safety and containment. And once you get beyond the safety and
containment need, what are you going to do? They have to go back out into the
community. So, it requires a family
of some sort. And if they don't have a family, a placement of some sort. Um,
but it's it's not really moved because it takes a lot of money to do that.
Yeah, that's what I think she was indicating in the southern part. So, um,
there's more to be done on that. I am really reluctant to be overly
supportive of county funding state institutional placements.
I mean, building a state institution that we're going to have to pay for it
doesn't make any sense to me. If they were to fix the funding model,
um, or if they were just to build it in our area for the right reason, then I
think we could get behind it. But we under And then I can go back and show
the chart again, under completely flat revenue,
it makes no sense for them to look to us to help pay for these things when we're
barely paying for the placements and and service to the clients that we have
right now.
Yep.
Trempealeau, yep. So, that's one of the behavioral health ones. So, here the
mechanism, that's why when I say it's not always a it's not a management
problem or it's not always a management problem.
Sometimes directors, I mean, they're responsible
ultimately for the bottom line of that budget, right? You guys will hold them
responsible for that. Sometimes they're unaware
of placements at Trempealeau ahead of time.
And that's I think inexcusable. I think they need to be made aware. They need to
have systems in place that because then they should be in front of the board if
they need to be or their boss, the exec or the administrator if they need to be.
And sometimes the the place the placement's appropriate. I mean, every
time it occurs it should be appropriate. But we here, I will tell you, we are
working on discharge planning before they even get there.
Because facilities
as I'm sure you will understand want certain placements
to keep their business going. And we need to be very aware that yes,
they're not going to be telling us something that's not a benefit to the
patient, right? But they're also not moving as fast as we want them to
on some things. Because ultimately the goal is community
living. Community placements. That's another
thing I inherited here in our chronically mentally ill
um system from Mary Kennedy who was the director here,
um had no placements for our CSP. They were
all in their own independent community placements.
Uh they worked hard and they staffed up. That's why our staffing levels look good
here, but we don't pay for those big placements because eventually
the people need to be living in their own community and contributing to their
own community independently. That's the right thing to do by the
patients. Um
So,
what actually happens when we have these financial issues, we can't cut mandates
because we have no control over them. So, we don't go after mandated services.
Um we can't stop placements that are necessary or crisis.
Um but what we do
is things like hiring freezes. So, if we have vacancies, we hold off on
position. We rely on those vacancy savings. If we
know there's a high placement and we know we have vacancies, we may not
actively recruit for a period of time, 6 months, sometimes a year. I've had place
positions open for 2 years waiting for expenses to turn around.
We delay on IT and infrastructure modernization.
We have had the same system that we were the first county to
purchase it from Dane County Mental Health Center. I was a brand new
employee here and I was charged with IT modernization.
Now I laugh because I'm like the last person you'd want to ask.
» [laughter] >> I've been promoted to the level of
incompetence, like they don't let you do things IT related anymore.
Right? I think I asked Chris, could you tee up my presentation cuz I don't even
know how to find it on the laptop. Um, but we've had the same system. We
still have that one since 1990 7. Um, increased caseloads per worker,
that's what we do when we hold staff vacancies or we do hiring freezes. And
then we burn out and then we have the turnover cycle. Um,
the hidden cost to those things, of course,
increased jail utilization. How many of you heard
Sheriff's office say, "All of our inmates have mental health issues."
"All of our inmates have drug and alcohol issues."
Yeah, well, it's a direct result of the state doesn't fund human services
treatment staffing levels. They end up in the jail, in the
correction system. There was a Medicaid managed care study done in a southern
state that's going to escape me now. Um, that showed increased utilization of
jails because of managed care for mental health in their Medicaid system. I mean,
it is just a fact. Um, emergency room hospital costs. So,
we impact the system costs for hospitals because they're spending a lot of time
with our individuals in emergency rooms or with our elderly that are on
emergency protective placements. Law enforcement time I explained to you
a little bit. School disruptions, so we have youth delinquents in schools
causing issues for principals, guidance, police school
liaison officers, the hidden cost to those um
could be related back to visible response and cuts in service.
Um we always defer prevention because the state never pays us for
prevention. And we all know that preventive care,
just like anything in the medical system, human services, health and human
services is no different. That's where the money should go, but
instead of Forget how we say that. Instead of um
cutting the things to prevent the fire, we're cutting the things that put the
fires out because we end up paying for these deep
end costs because we don't have the prevention uh money to do anything about
it. I have not recommended prevention
programs here, and we're pretty We're usually in a pretty good place
financially. We have some time, sometimes if caseloads are low,
that we can use some prevention. Real prevention programs is what I'm talking
about. Um and then the community trust, I mean,
across the state um health and human services struggles
in certain areas because they're not responsive and they're not preventing,
and they feel like um the community members sometimes or
family members are thinking that we're not doing what we are meant to do.
Um Medicaid tool, I won't get into this with you tonight, but um other than
maybe just the risk part of it. So, we go after For those of you who
know me, I will go after every Medicaid dollar that we've ever had. I've been a
part of state developing Medicaid programs to benefit benefit counties.
And whether or not that's always a great thing to say out loud, it depends
because some of those Medicaid dollars that we grab, it's very
complicated and difficult to get them. Um but we'll go after everyone because
that's all we have. But staff have to
hired at times to do that. And so we have to chase those dollars. And we
sometimes have to expand a service to be able to get Medicaid revenue, which
seems kind of counter indicated. Um and audit exposure.
There are many times when the state's like, well,
yeah, we said that you could do that, but now that the Medicaid audit's
occurring, we're going to need to claw back some dollars. This never happened
here. Um we've never had to pay anything back,
but Marinette and some other counties around us have had to pay back
audit dollars, which I don't know is entirely all of their their fault.
Um so what actually needs to happen, and this is we'll get into this more at the
WCA conference, what we need elected officials to do to Paul's question about
have you ever fought back about Lincoln Hills and the rate,
we need levy limit modernization in the state of Wisconsin.
100%. I know you know that, um but it is such
a bigger issue as far as who we serve and what we have to do.
We don't have choices in A and health and human services. We don't have a
choice to allow a person to continue to be dangerous in the community.
Um we don't. I mean, we're required by a law to respond to that individual,
essentially take away their rights, put them in a hospital, and manage them 6
months a year, maybe longer.
Um and it requires money to do that. So, um levy growth is not
um eliminating the levy limit is not going
to happen. So, we take the little wins that we can
get, but we need something um to recognize that mandate growth and costs
are going up. So, we need a revenue somehow
beyond just the property taxpayer. Um human services can do things. Part of
this was done for directors, so those slides are still here, but they can do
things that they're not right now, which is statewide contract negotiations for
providers. So, not necessarily Lincoln Hills
because they're a state um
correction facility, but other private organizations, we can negotiate with
them um to create more favorable contracts.
It's um it's a tricky balance that we have to do
because of course we need the providers. So, you need providers to be able to
make money, right? They have to be able to sustain be sustainable um to serve
our clients, so we can't um cut them too much cuz otherwise it uh we
don't have the placements available. Stabilization fund, possibly
um we could advocate for that. That's a human services thing.
Um WCA, of course, um I think we have to have a unified message across all 72
counties. I think when Alice and I have been talking about things like data
centers, um
WCA seems to be willing to do things more to collect all 72 counties
together. It's difficult to be a counties association when you have 72
counties with varying opinions. Um but we need to kind of find places to meet
in the middle. Legislative alignment, levy reform,
we have to do that. I wanted to show you this rate this
chart. Um I don't remember if I've ever shown this
to you at budget time, but I've realized um after the last budget, I'm definitely
going to. Because a board member called me and
said, "Wait a minute. You told me the rate went down.
And I'm getting calls from my constituents about the tax rate.
And this is a very important visual for you to see and understand why state
legislators never want to change the levy limit.
Because that red line is your county tax levy.
Flat. Right? Like I've shown in previous
charts. That orange is the equalized value.
So, equalized value of your property owners, you've seen your bill,
your tax bill. The blue line is the tax rate.
So, they can come before you and you can go to your constituents and
say, "We've cut the tax rate." Yeah, well, that's how the math works.
That's what I want board members to see because Yeah, you're laughing, but it's
true. It's because of the levy limit. We can't
raise it. The valuation goes up
and the rate goes down. So, they aren't going to be willing to
change that unless there's a significant change in their perspective of the tax
rates all that matters. Because that's This chart doesn't change
under This is a result of the levy limit calculation.
This is why it is the way it is. It shows that your property tax rates
are less, but the equalized value in in most recent years continues to go up, so
sometimes those bills go up even though the rates go down, and that's not even
to um bring into the calculation about school on that tax bill.
But, that's just an awareness of the political climate. I don't think we're
going to get the state legislature to change that. So, we have to go after
something else. Um
this gets in what directors can actually do.
Um but, we have structural constraints. Um
you've heard us say this before. It's It's much more of a reality in
certain areas where there's mandates, which is human services.
Um it affects other departments, of course, because if Chris wants to add
capacity to GIS, he may have to wait a couple years until Health and Human
Services levy is less dependent on you mean the mandate shrink. So, it affects
decisions that we make to other departments.
Um that are on the tax levy. History of county funding is a history
of mandates outpacing revenue tools. It's a reality. We need to be talking
about it, and we need to share the data. We need a new revenue
um beyond shared revenue reform.
We need to provide the data. We need to collaborate as counties.
We do some things with human services day at the capital. That was Alice's.
So, we do go and advocate, which is a wonderful thing. But, I know I've been
there with some counties that are bringing their own message
because it affects them much more than the statewide um advocacy does. So,
we have to be better about that. Um
it's the end of That's the fast high-level version of county funds and
HHS.
And you'll get more. I know you're looking forward to it.
You'll get the countywide one. >> Next.
» And mine's broke. Mine's broke. I can't vote.
» Yes. Um I called Todd earlier today, or I
actually called Emmy, and he said he would give me like an open mic. Um
my wife was diagnosed with cancer last August.
They took uh most of the month of September and October to decide what to
treat her with. >> Supervisor Miller, we need to deal with
this motion first. >> Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know.
» I please you voted your ballot so it's >> Joe, we're just trying to carry you on.
Okay. >> All right. We passed yes, 14 yes, seven
absent so that has been approved. The next appointment is the re-
re-appointment of Kevin Fischer whose term will expire June 30th, 2026 and his
new term will expire July 30th, 2029. I need a motion to adopt.
» I was just saying I don't know.
» Someone give me a motion. >> voted on all of them.
» Oh, we did.
We did? I did not ask for that. Okay. All right, then I guess it's all
approved. >> be okay.
» Okay. All right.
Now we have an appointment while you did that one, too.
Lynette Malburg? >> It It's the way it was set up.
» All right, then all three of them were approved. Lynette Malburg was gone to
the zoning board of adjustments and her term will expire July June 30th, 2029.
» to confirm that there's no objection to that.
» Is there any objection to any of those? Seeing none.
» Okay. I just We just want to make sure that
» They're approved. Okay. All right.
No, we aren't going to meet in July. >> Yep, so just go in the you know, right.
So you don't have to We don't have to indicate that at this point anyway.
» All right, the next regular meeting will be July. Whether we'll have one or not,
you will be notified. So consideration of adjust- additional
items uh for the next board meeting, does anyone have anything they'd like to
add?
If you do, please let myself know or or Todd. And Supervisor Miller, you had
something you wanted to to
address. >> Okay, thank you. My hearing aids are
about run out, so I'm not hearing very well. I've had them in since probably
4:30 this morning. So, as I said before, my wife had to
deal with cancer a second time. And through all of this, I started
trying to get as much done with the Veterans Administration. Michelle and
Kevin been very helpful. So, I'll I'll cut straight on that. Her family was
tremendous to get through this. I got kids that live in five states out of 10.
One deceased. So, we're making it through. Everybody's doing okay.
My one son from Texas is still up here. And so, we'll be okay. So, VA
Michelle got appointments for me, things I should have been doing 60 years ago if
they'd have had their act together. So, I get stuff like I made an
appointment at Grand Chute. I had to go there to make it cuz we can't get
through on the phone. Am I too loud? >> No, you're good.
» So, my neighbor Rick has the same problem. We can't connect. So, we go
there to get an appointment. That very afternoon, they call me from VA, and
that would be on the 26th of May, saying that you have an appointment in Ionia
for your hearing test. I says, "11:00 there and 3:00 at Grand Chute, it going
to work. It going to work." So, they switched it to
to Monday, and we went to Menominee. And I had a guy drive me cuz I spent some
long days. Okay? Had a guy drive me. So, for 31 minutes, I'm in a booth. I worked
at a mill way out here just south of This particular time, don't sit down.
They throw them in your ears. Okay? Now, when the when the when the beep comes
up, you have to say the word. Used to press a button.
I've got Agent Orange symptoms here ever since Vietnam. I've never gotten any
compensation. We might be getting close. So, anyway,
say the word. I need some water, man. I need some water. At least four times
through that 12 minutes. Then the next one,
say the word girl. So, you got to say say the word lake. Same thing, water.
Used to be able to press the button. I'm sitting down, okay.
Oh, about 12 minutes of that, and gal's outside the tube just taking a
recording. And then the last one again is the little more deeper thing, first
your left ear and then your right ear. And you got to say yes. You got to say
yes. Man, really drained me out. So, 31
minutes in there. Let's get out of here. We go home. So, I submit my mileage.
They let us know they pay 41 cents a mile, way behind the 77. So, the 217
miles, yeah, a week later I got the check. I wouldn't cash it right away, it
was good. We burned it in the bar. So, anyway, took it. So, the next thing
then, last week Thursday, I get a call from a guy in Texas scheduling
appointments, paperwork from Indiana for the VA, saying that I have an
appointment on the 15th. So, this was on Thursday of last week.
I have appointment on the 15th in X, you know, XONIA. It's still in my
Oconomowoc. Okay, so that is my um
Yeah, my uh PSTS, okay. Never had that. Never had that in 60 years.
I spent Vietnam killing a lot of gooks because that's what we were trained to
do is kill. We never had one session at all was to
come back into society. When I extended over there, yeah, I I
did it because I had guys that couldn't leave. I was pretty strong. I made rank
pretty good. I would see guys get killed. So, I did pretty good. I stayed
an extra 4 months and 4 days. So,
out of all of this, that's the only one thing thing I got is my wife. I met
through a guy that flunked out of Sacramento State. He was about a month
behind in basic training. Eventually over there, somebody said, "Hey, there's
a guy over there that's looking for a Wisconsin guy." He had some gals take
her APO addresses that he flunked out of college and write to because he got a
discharge when his father got killed in an auto accident while he was waiting to
come to Nam. Okay? So, Peg and I met 13 and 1/2 months later. We wrote letters.
Um I found the last one that she wrote to
me, and we also the grandkids found the last one I wrote to her
8 days before we got married in '69. So, we produced only 10 kids.
Had a big party on the 50th anniversary. We got dozens of cards showing Peggy do
50 more. Yeah, we were
deeply attached. She was from California. She worked as a G4 as a
sophomore in college. Back then it was generals from
Washington would tell them ordered us ordered out supplies, military uniform.
So, they would they would actually have to type out the invoice and do it.
That's what she was good at, okay? Uh she took me horseback riding. We got
pictures of that. First time ever. She had a trained horse. And if I
smarted off, she says, "Do it again. I'll have the horse take the tail and
knock your head off." Well, it did. Bless you. Yeah. So, good memories.
She's in a better place. She suffered immensely from December on.
One test after another. Let's switch to chemo. What we're doing. Let's do this.
Let's take her to Madison for radiation. She was treated like a used tire.
Pretty much. Yeah. And I remember going in to Encircle AMC,
Theta Clark five different times from October emergencies because she had
problems with her liver and all of that retained. So, they had to start pumping
it out every four or five days. 5.75, 6.75. And it was a matter of sometimes
they had to be pretty delicate. They had to get the layer body right so they
didn't injure the other organs. They they physically went in and siphoned it
out four or five six hours. And then they had to start putting
protein back in because she was getting too weak. So, they had to keep her extra
hours and and put that form of protein back in.
So, what are we going to do? So, the kids got just just baffled. It's like,
"What are we going to do? What can we count on? It's in doctor's hands.
And some some fail. So, my wife failed on other treatments, you know.
But, I've seen boards, unfortunately, all these centers have like 40 boards.
We do it every Friday, and by 7:30, 8:00, 39 of the 40 are all lit up. In
other words, people are in treatment. And a lot of people know that. They're
in treatment rooms. I started seeing a guy that's from
Amboy. Every Friday, he'd come in. First 2
weeks, yeah, I pretty good. And then, all of a sudden, 1 week later, he came
in and he's got a cane. A month later after that, he's in a
wheelchair. And the the nurse said, "Hey, how you doing? How you doing
today, Homer?" Well,
she used to say, "I'm better than nothing." What did that mean?
His wife had been coming in, too. I didn't realize she died the week before.
What a suffering is going on in this world. Why do we have so much cancer in
this country? I've traveled other countries. My daughter traveled There's
no cancer in Okinawa. There's no cancer in Turkey. You know what I mean? Name
some others. And And we can prove that. There isn't. What are we doing wrong
here? Is it the soils? No, is it our sprays? I've got Agent
Orange because the seven chemical companies that were paid to produce it
for the company for the government, we sued them. 441,000 guys signed a suit
with me in 1982. 15 months later, they all denied. They
all got off. $180 million all went to the 16
All went to the 16 attorneys we had. We didn't get a dime. So, ever since then,
the Veterans Administration has been kicking up, kicking like me and his
patients, rating me. You know what I mean? So, someday,
I'm waiting on the one from my hearing test. And two to three weeks which was a
month ago yesterday, I have not gotten a mail out of how my hearing test went.
I've been probably deaf for 20 years. Okay? Mostly.
So, the one yesterday said
that in 48 hours, it'll be documented, it'll be sent to your county veteran
service officer. And Michelle knows that. She's got me coming in Friday to
do some special things. Okay? So, I commend how good they're finally waking
up on this county to do well. I We had a real Dudley one back in the when I got
old in '69. He wasn't in his office six out of seven
times. You know, I I think his last name was chill. But and and other guys
experienced the same thing. >> Well,
Supervisor Miller, on behalf of the board, we certainly do
offer our sympathy. I know how close you and Peggy were.
» Yeah, well, thank you. Yeah, we're uh just to let
you know, everybody's doing good. Uh we got our family reunion on the 28th. And
I just the rule is bring two or three items that you don't that you want to
give away, and then everybody will get like a bid on it, and if they don't get
given away, you take them home. Everybody's fine. So, there'll be a
probably 130, 150 people at that. So, thank you for letting me speak, and we
are survivors. >> Thank you.
» Thank you. Thank you very much.
» Yeah, yeah. >> Did you guys run the front of it? Are
you guys aware of the highway committee? Thank you.
» Right. Right. You open your document