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Good evening and I will call to order the September 20, 2022 meeting of the Carmel Plan Commission and ask that we all rise for the Pledge of Allegiance.

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Thank you. Mr. Secretary, would you call the roll please?

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W. Buckler. W. Buckler.

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Kerry Holly.

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President.

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Jeff Hill.

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President.

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Josh Kirsch.

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President.

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Allen Patazzo.

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President.

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Kevin Ryder.

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President.

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Susan Westerman.

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Thank you.

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That's it.

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Christina Zocola.

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Present.

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And President Graybo.

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Present.

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We have a quorum and for the record our rules of procedure do allow for remote participation

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as Mr. Ryder is doing this evening, however, he may not vote on any items that come up

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for action this evening.

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So we do have a quorum.

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Next item on our agenda is approval of our August meeting minutes.

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Move to approve.

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Second.

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Thank you Ms. Akola and Mr. Perch for the second all in favor of adopting the

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minutes as circulated say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Minutes are approved.

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Communications bills expenditures and report of legal counsel. Mr. Kachukin.

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Nothing to report Mr. President. Thank you my favorite report. Reports

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announcements and other items from the department. Thank you. We just have the

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The outcome of the projects that committee to report at the commercial committee, docket

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number PZ2022-00118, DPADLS, the GOAT had a 4-0 favorable recommendation back to the

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full plan commission.

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So we'll hear that tonight under old business.

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And then under residential committee, docket number PZ2022-00117, PUD 96th and Haberstik,

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PUD Rezone was tabled to Thursday, October 6th, so there's no report on that.

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There's no tablings tonight, and that is it.

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Thank you.

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We do have a full agenda this evening with four public hearings on the agenda, one

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item of old business and one other item of new business.

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One of the items for public hearing this evening is a matter for which one of our

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members is asked to be recused, so when we get to that docket, she will leave the room

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for the duration of our deliberation on that matter.

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With that, we will move to the public hearings portion of tonight's meeting.

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The Plan Commission's rules for public hearings provide for up to 15 minutes for the petitioner

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to describe their project, make the case for their desired action.

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Then the public hearing continues with open comments from members of the public who wish

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to speak.

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A block of time of up to 20 minutes is allocated for that purpose.

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The petitioner then has up to five minutes to respond to those comments.

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And then at the conclusion of the department report, the public hearing will be closed

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for each matter.

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The first public hearing tonight is Docket PZ-2022-00119 DP-80LS Flora on Spring

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Mill.

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The applicant seeks site plan and design approval for residential neighborhood consisting of 12

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brownstones, 12 two-family homes, 10 single-family homes, and 86 townhomes on 18.31 acres.

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The site is located at 990 Spring Mill Road, and the zoning is FLORA PUD under Ordinance

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Z-676-22.

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The petition has been filed by Jim Schinever and John Davachevitz of Nelson and Frankenberger

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on behalf of Pittman Partners, Inc. and Onyx and East LLC.

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And just to clarify, based on some of the letters and remonstrants we have received,

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this matter is a development plan and ADLS approval.

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What that means is the petitioner is asking for the plan commission to approve their development plan

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and the architectural design, lighting, and signage standards for this project.

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The barometer or the measuring stick that the plan commission uses is the conformity of those plans to the terms and conditions that are spelled out in the FLORA PUD.

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What that means is what is not up for consideration tonight is preservation of the wooded area other than what is already required under the terms of the PUD.

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We are just looking at the development plan, the architectural design, the lighting, and the signage standards.

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So, John, if you would, the floor is yours for the next 15 minutes.

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Thank you very much.

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Good evening for the record.

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My name is John Dabashiewicz.

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I'm a land use professional with the law firm in Nelson and Frankenberger.

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We represent the petitioners, Pittman partners in Onyx and East LLC.

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The President tonight is Brandon Knox of Onyx and East,

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other members of our development team,

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and Jen Schimmer, an attorney with our office.

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By way of general background,

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the real estate as indicated by President Grebo was rezoned earlier this year to the

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floor at Springville PUD, which at this time we're requesting site development architectural

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landscaping, open space and amenity approval as established under the terms of the PUD.

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As noted, the applicant is seeking development plan approval this evening as proposed

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all site improvements including dwelling design will comply with the requirements

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of the floor at PUD.

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The real estate's identified on the exhibit now on display.

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It's included behind tab two of your brochures as well.

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It's approximately 18 acres in area, bound on the south by a 465 to the immediate south

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and to the immediate east of Springville Road.

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There's large-scale office developments east of Springville.

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North of the site, as well as west of the site, there are single-family homes.

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across Williams Creek is the Cedar Point residential subdivision. Can

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you zoom

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out just a bit on that? I don't know how in the booth you can do that. As

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illustrated on the site plan the layout for the floor at Spring Mill

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Community includes tree preservation areas to the north around the pond and

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additional tree preservation along I-465 and Spring Mill Road. The

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green space and common areas as well as pedestrian sidewalks and internal

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path networks provide for significant connectivity.

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Access around the pond will include a natural crust drone path around its perimeter for access

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by residents to enjoy that area.

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Vehicular access will be provided to the neighborhood via modification to the existing roundabout

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at Spring Mill and Illinois Street, which access has been reviewed by Carmel Engineering.

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As proposed, the plan includes 120 homes where the zoning permits the construction

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of a maximum of 129 dwellings.

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Additionally, regarding parking, a total of 347 parking spaces are provided, including

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a minimum of two on every individual lot, as well as 63 on-street parking spaces, which

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is detailed under the seminal information.

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Regarding dwelling types and architecture, the flora on Spring Mill neighborhood includes

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a mix of housing styles in that it will offer single-family courtyard homes.

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Those are the homes identified here, generally along the west perimeter of the site.

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Brownstones, which are identified here.

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Riftop deck town homes, pitched roof town homes, and two family homes.

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The two family homes are here at the center of the development.

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Included behind tabs 9 through tab 14 of your brochure, respectfully, are the details

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regarding those individual home types.

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The PUD ordinance sets forth specific architectural requirements for all the home product

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and requires architecture review for compliance by the Plant Commission under this ADLS review.

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Additionally, as noted by staff in the Department Report, Onyx Neese will provide sound mitigation

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that will be employed in the construction of homes adjacent to I-465.

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This exhibit is a little difficult to see. The shadings in red exhibits included

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behind Tab 5 of your brochure within the landscape plans.

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lands. The community includes tree preservations as I indicated to the north in additional

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tree preservation along I-465, so those areas that are cross-hatched here in red are tree

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preservation here and as well along the I-465 perimeter of the site.

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Additional detail is provided in the landscaping plans for all open space areas. A few of

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those open space areas are identified here on this plan exhibit. They include bicycle

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parking, hardscape areas, seating and planning areas, some of which are shown in this illustration.

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If you have access to the digital copy, and we may bring this blow-up to this to committee,

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but the digital copy, if you access it online, you can zoom into those spaces and see it

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more readily. The illustrations that we provided in the paper brochure are difficult

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to read and determine what those individual areas are representing.

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Again, great specificities provided regarding those areas that's included under tab 5, tab

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8, and tab 15 of your brochures.

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In conclusion, the site development plans will fully comply with all the requirements

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of the floor of PUD.

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We'll continue to work with staff to address their final remaining comments prior to

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the committee meeting.

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It's our understanding that that meeting is scheduled for October 6th with the

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residential committee.

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With that, I'll conclude and would be glad to address any questions the Commission

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has either now or at the conclusion of the public hearing.

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Thank you.

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Thank you.

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The public hearing continues with comments from members of the public.

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Can I see a show of hands, please, of those of you who wish to speak tonight on this petition?

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I see four hands up.

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Five.

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I'm sorry, against the wall in the back.

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So we'll divide that 20-minute block by five speakers and a lot four minutes per speaker, Joe.

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There's a red-yellow green light system in front of the microphone.

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At 30 seconds remaining, the light will go yellow.

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And at the end of the four-minute time period, the light goes red.

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And we ask that you conclude so that the next person has their share at the microphone.

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So whoever would like to be first, please step up to the mic.

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Whoever wishes to be second, if you would take your place in line behind that speaker.

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so we can minimize the downtime between speakers.

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As you're approaching, if you would each introduce yourself

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by name in the area of Carmel, not your home address,

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but just the area of Carmel in which you reside

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for the record, thank you.

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Hello, hi, good evening, my name is Mark

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and I live right around the Palladium, Magda MAGDA.

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I only wanna say that I'm against the plan

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because it seems like it's a rather condensed

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thing that they're trying to build.

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I think it'll add too much traffic to the street

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that's not built right now to accommodate it.

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And I'm not sure if this is the right place

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to voice my concerns,

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but also I worry about the building materials and stuff.

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Right now we have a lot of green initiatives going around.

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So whatever is built on this property,

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I would like just whatever measures could be made

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to keep it as green as possible

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and solar panels and such like that.

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Thank you for your time.

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Okay.

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My name is Angelo Dottillo and we live at 146 and US 31.

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I was going to talk about potential ways to expand the woodlands, but that's off the table

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and I'm disappointed.

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But if I was involved earlier in the process, I may not be disappointed.

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This plan, a couple things.

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There was a Woodland Evaluation Report done on May 17, 2021, and Arborist divided the

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area into five areas, areas one, two, three, four, and five, and I just want to make the

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point that there are mature Woodlands in those areas that complied with the City of Carmel

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zoning ordinance, so I know that's not important anymore, but it is something that I want to

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talk about.

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But the main thing here, now that the other items are off the table, I want to talk about

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soil erosion.

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It's a terribly exciting subject.

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Soil erosion to Williams Creek.

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Williams Creek is a pretty sensitive creek, and there's a nicer perry in Woodlands

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around the creek that's been protected and I do thank you for the woods that you did protect.

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But there in December 2021 Indiana transitioned from rule five to a permit by rule detailing

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how developers and contractors must protect Indiana soil and water during construction

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to a new permitting process, it's called the Construction Stormwater General Permit.

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So Indiana no longer administers the stormwater program.

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The new permit is a performance-based regulation.

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So, you're still required to submit a...

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A SWIP or a stormwater pollution protection plan. And if IDEM determines that the discharge

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of your land disturbance will, activities will significantly lower the water quality, quote

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unquote, IDEM will require you to submit an individual stormwater permit. Well, I don't

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know, they do desktop reviews of these permits, but I don't know if they actually go visit

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it and implement the plan.

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So let's assume that they are under resourced.

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So I would say I want to know how the project site owner will hold the excavation company

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accountable to comply with the SWIP, the Storm Water Pollution Prevention Plan, SWP3.

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So, you know, when you change, when you go from a government or a, I'm sorry, a rule-based

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permitting process to a self

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-management process, if you will, that leaves a lot of room for

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not following the rules and cutting corners and doing things the way you want to do them.

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And I don't want to see during excavation sentiment drainage into Williams Creek.

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It should be managed, and the SWIP should be complied with.

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And I hope the owner is responsible.

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So that's my point.

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So thank you.

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Thank you.

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My name is Jennifer Christie.

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I live down the street from the development and I also work with an organization called

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Indiana Forest Alliance.

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You probably noticed the 36 letters that have been submitted in opposition to the development

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since mid-August and I think you would have seen and heard from many of these neighbors

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much earlier had they been notified.

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A project of this scope that will change the community forever requires more than

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the bare minimum of notification. In fact, it should require abundant and redundant communication

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with neighbors because we're talking about taking out an old forest, a century old forest

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that is likely to have rare and endangered species and currently protects the community

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from the noise and exhaust pollution of 465. In addition to the water quality mentioned

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in the important corridor of Williams Creek and downstream.

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So it's tremendously impactful and there was a bare minimum of notification.

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If you look at the list that was given by the developer,

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only 10 households were notified in the neighborhood.

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Their map shows a dozen or so homes on Ventana Court and Spring Highland Drive

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and I'd like to know how these people were notified

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because they're not listed on the list of people who were given a letter.

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The residents on Hussey Lane did not receive any notification whatsoever,

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and they are next door to the cedar place that was mentioned.

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They didn't receive any notification, and this is essentially their backyard.

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And so I have big concerns about the public engagement on this project

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because people just weren't aware of it.

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There's also a couple of lots that are adjacent to the property, and I'm wondering who owns

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00:18:53,510 --> 00:18:57,250
those and if they were also notified of this development.

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So I think we owe it to the community to give abundant notification, not the bare minimum,

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and whether or not that was actually met.

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00:19:06,670 --> 00:19:12,210
I also have concerns because Carmel just passed the climate plan, and this development

247
00:19:12,210 --> 00:19:16,410
is opposite to what we should be doing with the Carmel Climate Plan.

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It is one of the last wild habitats remaining wild forests that are in the carbon area,

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and this place acts as a carbon sink.

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00:19:26,290 --> 00:19:32,290
IFA and the Office of Land Stewardship recently performed a study on urban forests and determined

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that 48 metric tons per acre, that is, per acre, are stored in one acre of forest,

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which is equal to the annual emission of 10 cars.

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So that means this area that we're talking about, just carbon storage alone, not even

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counting the sequestration that happens as the forest grows, stores carbon for 180 cars

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annually.

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And that doesn't even count carbon sequestration.

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And to date, there still is no better technology than photosynthesis, which is still the

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best carbon sequestration method, particularly for old trees.

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So it doesn't really make any sense to cut down a century old forest in the time that

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we are in right now.

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We are facing a climate crisis, and we have a plan to deal with this.

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So I would ask you to take a look very critically at this.

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And I know that we're along in this process, but I would ask you to please take time to

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pause and critically look at this development.

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Carmel has very little wild nature left in it.

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There are few parks that are forested.

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Even, I believe, Flowing Spring has 15 acres.

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We're talking about 18 acres of old forest.

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So I'd ask you to pause and make a true assessment of the impact on the people of Carmel

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to our wildlife and to our future.

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Once a century-old ecosystem is removed, we can't get it back.

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And so I'd like you to take a moment to please pause

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and take a critical look at this development

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before we go forward with it. You still have time to do the right thing. Thank you.

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Thank you.

276
00:21:14,870 --> 00:21:18,690
My name is Nancy. I live in Lexington Farms here in Carmel.

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00:21:19,930 --> 00:21:22,270
Can we have your last name please, Nancy, for the record?

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00:21:22,790 --> 00:21:23,010
Thank you.

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00:21:23,090 --> 00:21:23,690
Nancy Tatum, sorry.

280
00:21:26,650 --> 00:21:35,590
The impact that this project will have on the wildlife that lives in this 18-acre site is,

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Well, what's going to happen is these animals will be crushed by bulldozers, buried alive,

282
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or pushed out into the street to be hit and killed.

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00:21:49,210 --> 00:21:55,230
It's known that there are minimal invasives in there, along with foxes, deers, frogs,

284
00:21:55,610 --> 00:22:04,170
bats, snakes, salamanders, and it's just very concerning to think about the animals

285
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and the impact that it's going to have on them because they're not going to be able to survive.

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00:22:09,830 --> 00:22:21,230
I am asking that this area be kept as natural as possible. Let's keep nature natural.

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And so therefore, I am asking the Commission to require a study to be done on this property to document what is there,

288
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from the plants and trees to animals and insects.

289
00:22:40,070 --> 00:22:47,410
I'm also asking the Commission to make a requirement of each developer to conduct a survey of any area that's going to be built on,

290
00:22:47,610 --> 00:22:49,010
or possibly be built on.

291
00:22:49,010 --> 00:22:56,970
I would ask that the commission shows that Carmel is forward-thinking about the environment.

292
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Show us the evidence that Carmel will abide by the Climate Action Plan by keeping wooded areas wooded.

293
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We need ungroomed parks with mature trees that is a safe haven for wildlife

294
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and can be enjoyed by those of us who say, keep nature natural.

295
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We must look at the whole picture and consider the impact.

296
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No amount of tree planting can replace century-old forest like this one.

297
00:23:30,070 --> 00:23:32,770
This is not just about parks and trees and wildlife.

298
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It is about doing the right thing for the human psyche and for the environment.

299
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Thank you.

300
00:23:41,780 --> 00:23:42,240
Thank you.

301
00:23:46,370 --> 00:23:46,930
Hello.

302
00:23:47,190 --> 00:23:48,550
My name is Jill Meisenheimer.

303
00:23:48,550 --> 00:23:58,150
I live north of the Flora PUD, north of 111 Street between Spring Mill Road and the Bird Sanctuary at Williams Creek, an area that Carmel should help to protect.

304
00:23:58,810 --> 00:24:11,870
I heard a really awful story yesterday at our neighborhood picnic that there was a deer that was apparently being frightened by traffic who tried to climb the fence in our neighborhood

305
00:24:11,870 --> 00:24:16,910
and basically impaled its neck on our fence in the neighborhood

306
00:24:16,910 --> 00:24:21,930
because we're not providing space or environment for these animals

307
00:24:21,930 --> 00:24:23,730
that were actually that are there.

308
00:24:24,350 --> 00:24:27,950
The floor on Springmelt PUD should be a wake-up call

309
00:24:27,950 --> 00:24:31,410
for the residents of Carmel to understand the consequences of a PUD

310
00:24:31,410 --> 00:24:33,570
where the developer creates their own zoning.

311
00:24:34,090 --> 00:24:39,250
I understand that the 18 acres located west of an adjacent to Springmelt Road

312
00:24:39,250 --> 00:24:46,110
and north of I-465 were approved by the Plan Commission and the City Council to be re-zoned

313
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for PUD.

314
00:24:46,910 --> 00:24:52,790
However, this PUD crams three times, housing units greater than allowed zoning in West

315
00:24:52,790 --> 00:24:57,190
Carmel, and the majority of the residential units are to be three-story and four-story

316
00:24:57,190 --> 00:25:02,730
townhomes and brownstones, but really only two-story single-family homes were permitted

317
00:25:02,730 --> 00:25:03,610
by current zoning.

318
00:25:03,610 --> 00:25:08,010
The wooded side on the previous Idle Jorga State has few nearby neighbors.

319
00:25:08,690 --> 00:25:12,770
Only a few letters were written for the proposal for the Floor PUD Rezone,

320
00:25:12,830 --> 00:25:16,450
and of those in favor, all benefited from this development.

321
00:25:16,910 --> 00:25:21,070
And the remaining letters state important concerns about this development

322
00:25:21,070 --> 00:25:22,550
that were never adequately modified.

323
00:25:23,170 --> 00:25:26,430
At the City Council meeting on 4, 1822, Councillor Green asked,

324
00:25:26,630 --> 00:25:30,330
if the Floor PUD were not developed on this property compared to its S2 zone,

325
00:25:30,670 --> 00:25:32,350
what would happen to the tree preservation?

326
00:25:32,350 --> 00:25:34,050
The answer was shocking.

327
00:25:35,230 --> 00:25:42,410
An S2 subdivision would have a 75-foot tree buffer landscape of trees along 465 because it's such a big road,

328
00:25:42,510 --> 00:25:45,590
but the PUD only has a 15-foot buffer of trees.

329
00:25:46,190 --> 00:25:51,350
An S2 subdivision would have 25-foot tree buffer landscape along Springwell Road,

330
00:25:51,390 --> 00:25:55,250
but the PUD only has 10-foot landscaping.

331
00:25:55,250 --> 00:26:00,830
Looking at open space, an S2 subdivision would have no more than 15% clearing of mature trees

332
00:26:00,830 --> 00:26:05,950
and no more than 40% of young trees, but this PUD is a mixture of mature and young trees

333
00:26:05,950 --> 00:26:10,730
so that 73% of the site would be required to be preserved, though Alexis said she's

334
00:26:10,730 --> 00:26:11,570
never seen that happen.

335
00:26:11,650 --> 00:26:16,130
The PUD has only 20% tree preservation and 25% open space.

336
00:26:16,730 --> 00:26:20,410
In spite of this information, only three counselors voted against the floor PUD

337
00:26:20,410 --> 00:26:27,870
rezone proposal. Councillor Snelson, Green and Hanon. Councillor Hanon explained some

338
00:26:27,870 --> 00:26:32,870
drops in density by the developers that developers will typically come in high, take a little

339
00:26:32,870 --> 00:26:37,830
off the top, but still stay very high. Now is the time to preserve more of this environment

340
00:26:38,490 --> 00:26:44,550
which may in fact require reasonable drop in density. 35 letters were written to the

341
00:26:44,550 --> 00:26:48,990
Plan Commission about the current development plan and ADLS all posed the destruction

342
00:26:48,990 --> 00:26:53,590
of this wooded area. I ask that the Planned Commission ask the Floor Pudy to

343
00:26:53,590 --> 00:26:57,390
pause until the trees can be cataloged and the amount of forested environment to

344
00:26:57,390 --> 00:27:01,750
be saved can be increased to protect the residents who live in the area in that

345
00:27:01,750 --> 00:27:05,970
particular area of Floor Pudy and also protect the surrounding environment. I

346
00:27:05,970 --> 00:27:10,670
ask that the south perimeter of 15-foot tree preservation be increased

347
00:27:10,670 --> 00:27:13,930
dramatically to protect the residents who will live there mowing down the

348
00:27:13,930 --> 00:27:16,790
forest and planting a few trees will not make up for the forested

349
00:27:16,790 --> 00:27:21,570
area. Yes, things change, but changes can be irreversible and not always for the best

350
00:27:21,570 --> 00:27:25,070
for the future environment and residents living in West Carmel. Thank you.

351
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:28,280
Thank you.

352
00:27:32,750 --> 00:27:36,410
Hello, my name is Mark Douglas. I live in East Carmel. I'm actually living

353
00:27:36,410 --> 00:27:41,690
in the Eden Glen neighborhood. A longtime resident, a longtime user of the Park System,

354
00:27:41,810 --> 00:27:48,050
the Monon Center, you name it. I have a few brief comments. So the thing I think

355
00:27:48,050 --> 00:27:51,170
I think and I'm just kind of listening to some of the previous speakers that's concerning

356
00:27:51,170 --> 00:27:56,570
is that, you know, I'm not anti-development by any stretch of the imagination, but I think

357
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one of the things that's happening, and I've never been to one of these meetings, but one

358
00:28:00,470 --> 00:28:05,430
of the things that prompted me to come, and I know it's in Westfield with the Estridge

359
00:28:05,430 --> 00:28:12,130
situation, but when I look at what happened up at 161st and 31st or 31, excuse me,

360
00:28:12,130 --> 00:28:14,710
where basically there was a property there

361
00:28:14,710 --> 00:28:17,230
that they just completely decimated that forest.

362
00:28:18,330 --> 00:28:21,430
And when you look at the number of the limited green space

363
00:28:21,430 --> 00:28:24,130
that we do have and the continuous forest that we have,

364
00:28:24,570 --> 00:28:26,490
I think a big question for everyone is,

365
00:28:26,590 --> 00:28:28,450
what is Carmel going to look like in five to 10 years?

366
00:28:28,630 --> 00:28:30,150
I mean, my brother lives in Chicago.

367
00:28:30,970 --> 00:28:33,090
I travel a lot around the country and you think

368
00:28:33,090 --> 00:28:34,930
about what does urban sprawl look like.

369
00:28:35,450 --> 00:28:37,870
And even though Carmel is regularly recognized

370
00:28:37,870 --> 00:28:41,270
as a place to live, and I will absolutely agree,

371
00:28:41,270 --> 00:28:45,230
I think there's some concern about over development and it seems like the development pace is

372
00:28:45,230 --> 00:28:49,830
really picked up in the last couple of years to the point where, you know, they're building

373
00:28:49,830 --> 00:28:55,590
multi-story, multi-family units in areas that typically have not seen that kind of development.

374
00:28:55,750 --> 00:28:59,910
This is one of those cases where you have higher end homes, single family homes, and

375
00:28:59,910 --> 00:29:05,290
are looking to put a lot of units in a place that, you know, frankly, it's again

376
00:29:05,290 --> 00:29:06,650
a lot of high density area.

377
00:29:07,410 --> 00:29:11,450
And one of the trends that I've noted, I mean, my wife and I, when we purchased our

378
00:29:11,450 --> 00:29:15,310
home, we could have lived anywhere around Indianapolis, and, you know, this is my favorite

379
00:29:15,310 --> 00:29:19,150
time of year with fall coming, and Brown County is one of our favorite areas to go to.

380
00:29:19,770 --> 00:29:23,250
And a prerequisite we had, if we could find it, was to find a home that had a lot of

381
00:29:23,250 --> 00:29:23,510
trees.

382
00:29:23,630 --> 00:29:24,250
And we were fortunate.

383
00:29:24,410 --> 00:29:28,770
We found a place that's actually, we have about an acre and about 80% of it's wooded.

384
00:29:29,530 --> 00:29:31,950
Right here in Carmel, not about two miles from here, interestingly.

385
00:29:32,650 --> 00:29:35,970
In fact, we have people stop in the fall to take family photos in front of our

386
00:29:35,970 --> 00:29:41,430
trees because it's so pretty. So, the thing that comes to mind with this though

387
00:29:41,430 --> 00:29:44,750
as we've been thinking through, like I was talking to my wife about this the

388
00:29:44,750 --> 00:29:49,570
other day, is that, you know, for our future of our community when we start

389
00:29:49,570 --> 00:29:53,670
thinking about what we want our community to look like long-term, and

390
00:29:53,670 --> 00:29:57,410
again, the property development is going to happen, there has to be an

391
00:29:57,410 --> 00:29:58,730
environmental component.

392
00:30:00,460 --> 00:30:04,840
So that we're thinking through, as some of the previous speakers said, not just impact

393
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:10,260
wildlife, but just, you know, are we going to be Green City, USA or Tree City, USA, the

394
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:15,580
plan that has been developed around environmental impact, or there needs to be an environmental

395
00:30:15,580 --> 00:30:21,720
impact plan, but around the climate action plan. So I would just ask that the council

396
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:27,940
or the commission here take a look at that more closely and especially not just with

397
00:30:27,940 --> 00:30:32,360
this project, but when you start thinking collectively about the impact, you look at what's happening

398
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:37,080
in Fishers, in Westfield, in Zionsville, I think it's controlled some of the project

399
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:40,780
development and growth, but something I think they have to look at short and long term.

400
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:42,860
So thank you for your time, and thank you for your consideration.

401
00:30:44,740 --> 00:30:45,320
Thank you.

402
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:51,540
I think we've heard from six speakers now, where I had counted five earlier, and our

403
00:30:51,540 --> 00:31:00,000
are 20 minutes now up or close to it? Okay, thank you. So now the petitioner has up to

404
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,920
five minutes to respond to any of these comments if he chooses.

405
00:31:04,580 --> 00:31:10,660
Thank you very much. And we'll go into greater detail on a few of these topics at the committee

406
00:31:10,660 --> 00:31:16,140
level. Not necessarily in order, but there were comments made about the building materials

407
00:31:16,140 --> 00:31:20,460
and those types of things. Those issues were vetted through the zoning. A couple

408
00:31:20,460 --> 00:31:24,280
things to note is that there are definitive architectural requirements in the PUD that

409
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:28,060
were reviewed by the Planning Commission and Council that time is owning and the illustrations

410
00:31:28,060 --> 00:31:31,600
which were included in the plan at the time of zoning are those illustrations that you

411
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:35,780
see today have been reviewed by staff and comply with both of those requirements.

412
00:31:36,740 --> 00:31:44,120
With regard to stormwater prevention and the SWIP process, Carmel Engineering has

413
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:48,920
been engaged in the review of these plans. We will not receive development plan approval

414
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:55,280
through DOCS or Carmel Engineering until we meet all of the stormwater prevention requirements

415
00:31:55,840 --> 00:32:00,600
that they have in place. I can't speak to the state level of review, but I do know we

416
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:06,700
have obligations to comply with Carmel's requirements with regard to soil erosion and protection

417
00:32:06,700 --> 00:32:07,200
on site.

418
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:14,600
The other issue which was regarding notice which came up, I believe that we can have

419
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,180
staff confirm that we met the notice requirements that are part of the rules procedure

420
00:32:18,180 --> 00:32:20,080
that the Planning Commission has in place.

421
00:32:21,020 --> 00:32:27,500
With regard to the zoning process, several of the issues that were brought up this evening

422
00:32:27,500 --> 00:32:30,280
were vetted as part of the zoning process, in particular, tree preservation.

423
00:32:30,660 --> 00:32:35,020
We spent either two, at least two, if not three or four, committee meetings with the

424
00:32:35,020 --> 00:32:38,620
Residential Committee before we came back to the Planning Commission and then onto

425
00:32:38,620 --> 00:32:39,120
the Council.

426
00:32:40,020 --> 00:32:44,500
And as Ms. Meisenheimer described, there was still discussion at the last meeting

427
00:32:44,500 --> 00:32:48,340
meeting of the council before the vote was taken on the request regarding tree preservation.

428
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:54,180
So again, those issues were discussed, there was dialogue about those issues, and that

429
00:32:54,180 --> 00:32:56,580
was handled at the time of the zoning process.

430
00:32:57,980 --> 00:33:01,460
That'll conclude response to the comments that the public made.

431
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,640
Again, we'd be glad to address questions that the committee may have.

432
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:07,160
Thank you, John.

433
00:33:08,500 --> 00:33:09,180
The Department report.

434
00:33:12,500 --> 00:33:13,160
Thank you.

435
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:19,220
For the record, Alexia Lopez with the Department of Community Services, this project is seeking

436
00:33:19,220 --> 00:33:24,580
development plan and ADLS approval for a new subdivision with about 120 dwellings.

437
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:30,280
The property was recently re-zoned to the flora on Springville PUD and was approved

438
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:31,200
by the City Council.

439
00:33:32,540 --> 00:33:37,640
The proposed site plan as presented is in line with the concept plan that was approved

440
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:39,020
as a part of the PUD.

441
00:33:39,780 --> 00:33:44,000
There is a mix of residential uses to bring a variety of housing options to

442
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:49,340
Carmel along the busy 465 Interstate. There is a public street that enters the

443
00:33:49,340 --> 00:33:52,720
neighborhood and loops around with alleys coming off of the street for

444
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:56,760
garage access. This will create a more traditional neighborhood design that is

445
00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:02,340
walkable and bikeable. The PUD requires a minimum of 25% of the

446
00:34:02,340 --> 00:34:07,240
development to be open space with 20% being tree preservation. This amounts

447
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:09,680
to about three and a half acres of tree preservation.

448
00:34:10,980 --> 00:34:14,760
Currently, retaining wall is shown along the south perimeter

449
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:18,380
to bring the site up to the same grade, and

450
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:23,080
along that south perimeter is required to have a 15-foot tree

451
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:27,240
preservation buffer, and we are still working with the petitioner on that to make

452
00:34:27,240 --> 00:34:31,120
sure they meet those requirements. So we are reviewing this, making sure they meet the standards

453
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:35,700
of the PUD and that all the trees that they said they would preserve will be preserved.

454
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,600
The proposed elevations are in line with what was shown in the PUD.

455
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:47,360
However, there were some tweaks that we requested to the building elevations and we are still reviewing those.

456
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:54,200
As this is a large project, there are many details and items to review for compliance with the PUD

457
00:34:54,200 --> 00:35:00,420
and we continue to work through these with the petitioner as this project moves on to the committee review.

458
00:35:00,420 --> 00:35:07,040
issue. We received about 36 remonstrance letters as was stated on this project and you heard

459
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:12,860
some of those concerns tonight which were regarding tree preservation, traffic, density.

460
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:19,840
A lot of that was discussed as mentioned during the PUD rezone process as well. We would

461
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:24,140
recommend at this time that the project goes to the residential committee for further review

462
00:35:24,140 --> 00:35:30,000
And that meeting is on Thursday, October 6th, at 6 o'clock in this building.

463
00:35:30,340 --> 00:35:30,760
Thank you.

464
00:35:32,240 --> 00:35:32,940
Thank you.

465
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,580
That closes the public hearing for this docket.

466
00:35:37,220 --> 00:35:39,520
A discussion from members of the Plan Commission.

467
00:35:39,700 --> 00:35:40,160
Mr. Ryder?

468
00:35:45,710 --> 00:35:45,930
Christine?

469
00:35:47,750 --> 00:35:49,570
Okay, Debbie, you can start us off.

470
00:35:51,810 --> 00:35:57,890
I live in Cedar Point, so I live in an area close to where this is,

471
00:35:57,890 --> 00:36:05,170
And for those who were in the room, I was not on the plan commission when the PUD was presented and adopted.

472
00:36:06,250 --> 00:36:13,070
When I moved there 22 years ago, there was dense tree line.

473
00:36:13,790 --> 00:36:23,310
And in our neighborhood, we could not see 465 and only could hear the semis and motorcycles when they were revving up.

474
00:36:24,690 --> 00:36:35,330
different situation, IPL came along and because of wiring removed an awful lot of trees. So

475
00:36:35,330 --> 00:36:44,230
now we see 465 and we hear it constantly. But because we have a minimum tree buffer that's

476
00:36:44,230 --> 00:36:52,090
within the neighborhood that was existing, we're on a long-range plan for the State

477
00:36:52,090 --> 00:36:56,970
Department of Transportation to put a sound barrier wall along there.

478
00:36:59,970 --> 00:37:03,370
So I guess I'm just being as honest as I can.

479
00:37:03,690 --> 00:37:07,810
The second reason I'm bringing this up now is because on October 6th I will not be able

480
00:37:07,810 --> 00:37:11,090
to attend, be present at the residential committee.

481
00:37:12,890 --> 00:37:19,490
I don't know at what point this is considered self-serving or a conflict.

482
00:37:19,490 --> 00:37:27,890
So I wanted to be very clear about where I live and why at this point I have grave concerns about

483
00:37:27,890 --> 00:37:43,130
the density and the amount of trees and vegetation that would be removed because I have experienced

484
00:37:43,130 --> 00:37:47,870
firsthand what happens when it was there when you started out and then it's removed.

485
00:37:47,870 --> 00:37:55,090
So as presented, I would just like to be very clear about where I stand and where I stand right now

486
00:37:55,090 --> 00:38:00,150
is I think it's too dense and I would not be in favor of that much development in that area.

487
00:38:06,100 --> 00:38:13,400
A quick question. So this is one of those projects and we've had this discussion where all of the tree preservation

488
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:18,460
and most of the green spaces along the perimeter and around the buffer perimeter,

489
00:38:20,180 --> 00:38:23,700
The area that is in the southwest corner, that green space.

490
00:38:23,940 --> 00:38:29,880
I recall that that was supposed to be green space with what's called limited tree preservation and tried to preserve it.

491
00:38:30,500 --> 00:38:34,880
I see that you've got structures. What is the new plan?

492
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:39,020
So I thought the goal was, as much as you could throughout the development,

493
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:43,220
preserved some trees, but it looks like at least that area is being changed.

494
00:38:43,740 --> 00:38:45,380
Or did that get changed at City Council?

495
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:46,780
It did not.

496
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:47,260
Okay.

497
00:38:47,260 --> 00:38:52,900
There were areas that were identified as limited tree preservation and others that were specified as required tree preservation.

498
00:38:53,840 --> 00:39:00,440
That was in an area identified as limited and it's because after zoning we went through and did exact topo

499
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:07,020
and that's where you see the retaining wall that staff mentioned along the drive that's along the street that's adjacent to 465

500
00:39:07,720 --> 00:39:12,020
and that was in an area where trees couldn't be preserved because of grading issues.

501
00:39:13,180 --> 00:39:16,080
So even in that one common area?

502
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:16,760
I

503
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:24,600
think we're talking about this place here.

504
00:39:26,180 --> 00:39:28,820
I'll go back in advance of the committee meeting.

505
00:39:29,020 --> 00:39:32,860
I'll confirm with our client as to whether or not any trees

506
00:39:32,860 --> 00:39:34,320
can be preserved within that space.

507
00:39:34,700 --> 00:39:35,400
That would be great.

508
00:39:35,900 --> 00:39:38,780
And to the extent that there's additional tree preservation

509
00:39:38,780 --> 00:39:40,200
that you can do, you know, look at that,

510
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:42,200
and we can talk about that at the residential committee.

511
00:39:48,110 --> 00:39:49,210
Debbie, can I touch on this?

512
00:39:49,290 --> 00:39:50,570
But I've got a similar question,

513
00:39:50,990 --> 00:39:52,750
and I think I raised this to Mr. Fitman

514
00:39:53,350 --> 00:39:54,810
back when they were here for the rezone.

515
00:39:55,110 --> 00:39:56,810
But my question still remains,

516
00:39:56,810 --> 00:40:04,090
And I guess I'd ask John if there's like some homework you can do between now and committee with regards to the tree preservation identified adjacent to

517
00:40:04,090 --> 00:40:04,650
465

518
00:40:06,310 --> 00:40:09,670
Many moons ago. I asked if if he

519
00:40:10,730 --> 00:40:15,210
And I think through a consultant of his he reached out to Indot trying to learn more about the

520
00:40:15,730 --> 00:40:19,610
Expansion work on I-465. How does that affect these trees that are here?

521
00:40:19,770 --> 00:40:25,610
What's going on elevation wise that might help inform decisions? And I guess I'd ask

522
00:40:25,610 --> 00:40:32,310
What else can you find out, is there new information about it, and if those trees are at risk due

523
00:40:32,310 --> 00:40:40,210
to widening on I-465, can you come back and tell us that even if those go away, are we

524
00:40:40,210 --> 00:40:45,290
still compliant with the 25% tree preservation that's in the PUD, and just give us an update

525
00:40:45,750 --> 00:40:46,330
at that point?

526
00:40:46,470 --> 00:40:47,910
I don't expect you to know the answer now.

527
00:40:48,710 --> 00:40:54,010
If you happen to reach out to that same consultant, one exhibit I saw on Project

528
00:40:54,010 --> 00:40:59,930
Docs versus in the manual was for the entry at the roundabout there's an R3 in

529
00:40:59,930 --> 00:41:03,290
there over 40 miles an hour can you confirm with engineering that they're

530
00:41:03,290 --> 00:41:06,430
good with that because that strikes me is a little high perhaps there's some

531
00:41:06,430 --> 00:41:10,670
minor modifications that can be done to make sure that nothing bad happens at

532
00:41:10,670 --> 00:41:15,610
the entrance and there have been changes made to the entry plan but in

533
00:41:15,610 --> 00:41:18,930
the original submittal and the final submittal so I will confirm with them

534
00:41:18,930 --> 00:41:20,610
that the final submittal meets with their approval.

535
00:41:21,450 --> 00:41:22,270
Okay, thanks.

536
00:41:30,380 --> 00:41:35,760
W, I'm surprised to hear you say that there's a long-term plan to put up a sound wall there.

537
00:41:35,980 --> 00:41:37,140
I have not heard such a thing.

538
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:45,140
My understanding of sound wall is actually only ever go up when they widen the road

539
00:41:45,140 --> 00:41:49,660
and then they do a sound study and only after that do they decide.

540
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:51,460
I wasn't aware that there's a...

541
00:41:54,220 --> 00:41:57,960
I asked three years ago and they said that we were on the 20-year out plan.

542
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,780
plan, the long-range plan to put in the sound barrier along there.

543
00:42:01,740 --> 00:42:05,460
And that was after, after, what is it now, AES, but IPF?

544
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:09,460
So you're saying, I'm sorry, I'm just kind of curious, are you saying that they're widening

545
00:42:09,460 --> 00:42:12,860
465 and you know that? No, it's just that when all those trees were removed,

546
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:17,640
what was a natural sound and pollution barrier

547
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:20,700
is now gone and it's just really loud now.

548
00:42:22,740 --> 00:42:25,220
And then, can you

549
00:42:25,220 --> 00:42:32,160
refresh my memory. The property owner did some clear cutting on that property. What percentage

550
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:33,280
of the site did they log?

551
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:39,440
If you don't know off the top of your head. I just bring that

552
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:46,560
to committee. That's fine. Thanks. As kind of, this is just to the general public,

553
00:42:47,860 --> 00:42:51,520
as the park board's appointment to the Planning Commission, as kind of the tree-hugging-est

554
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:57,840
guy, well, self-proclaimed tree-hugging-est guy around, maybe not the most. I see a

555
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:03,960
of you in the crowd. I'm always confounded onto what to do. The Planning Commission is

556
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:09,260
an advisory board to the City Council. We don't actually make any decisions. We advise

557
00:43:09,260 --> 00:43:16,060
the City Council on what we think and we put a lot of work into what we think we can

558
00:43:17,900 --> 00:43:22,640
– sometimes we use the term highest and best use of the land. Now, I wouldn't

559
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:25,740
disagree with anybody if the highest and best use of the land is leaving a forest,

560
00:43:25,740 --> 00:43:32,040
but I'm always kind of stuck with how do I tell property owner that they can't

561
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:36,400
sell or develop the property or as a wise city counselor once told me before

562
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:42,200
if we shot the whole thing down and you are a property owner you would then go

563
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:45,400
clear-cut your property if it was because of trees that the whole

564
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:50,060
property got shut down. As the Parks Board Appointment to the Planning

565
00:43:50,060 --> 00:43:55,280
Commission I have held an expedition on a property that I tried to save

566
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:56,460
on successfully.

567
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:03,980
I think if you think that we're the ones who decide if trees

568
00:44:03,980 --> 00:44:07,860
get cut down or not, I just want to be really clear it's really not our

569
00:44:07,860 --> 00:44:13,260
decision. Our decision is to try to put the best products that we can and put

570
00:44:13,260 --> 00:44:18,000
the best oversight into the developed plans that we can and then advise that

571
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:23,200
to the City Council for as a recommendation. I just want to be

572
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:27,160
really clear on that, so that everybody understands what this body actually does.

573
00:44:30,240 --> 00:44:37,520
I would like to see the stormwater plan. I'd like to see any notes from engineering about

574
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:44,540
the SWIP. I'd like to see, one more time, I'd like to see what you could have done

575
00:44:44,540 --> 00:44:52,960
with R2 or S2, whatever it originally was, versus what we're doing now. And more importantly,

576
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:59,500
I want to see and want more clear understanding what kind of destruction took place back there when they harvested

577
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:04,100
The property owner harvested the trees. Thanks a lot, John.

578
00:45:05,380 --> 00:45:05,700
Thank you.

579
00:45:11,710 --> 00:45:19,610
The path that goes around the retention pond, how far does that extend into the trees?

580
00:45:22,240 --> 00:45:25,600
It does not. It'll be at the perimeter of the other woods.

581
00:45:25,860 --> 00:45:28,900
Okay, so we don't have any additional trees being cut down for that path?

582
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:34,040
No, it won't. The path won't even, there was some discussion in the past about meandering it through the woods.

583
00:45:34,180 --> 00:45:34,420
Right.

584
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:35,500
That's gone.

585
00:45:35,500 --> 00:45:44,560
Right. When I say discussion, it's not a mandate, but it was thought that it was best to just allow it to be along the perimeter of the pond, rather than mayandering it through the trees.

586
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:59,740
Okay. I also see, and now I can't find the page and I can't see without my glasses, but you have some lighting along the south perimeter of the pond. Correct?

587
00:45:59,740 --> 00:46:05,980
Do you there will be there will be street lighting it's my understanding that street lighting is confined to the intersections

588
00:46:05,980 --> 00:46:07,320
So there may be street lighting

589
00:46:07,860 --> 00:46:11,200
In the vicinity of this intersection and this intersection, okay?

590
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:17,200
But I don't believe that there's any any street lights along the pond side of that internal street

591
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:23,720
Okay, I didn't know I looked to me like when I was looking at the lighting plan that there what there were several lights on

592
00:46:24,660 --> 00:46:25,860
That south edge

593
00:46:26,780 --> 00:46:31,700
No, I don't believe there are but we'll double check that okay, and then when you come back to residential committee

594
00:46:31,700 --> 00:46:33,760
Are you going to have color palettes?

595
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:37,060
Yes, we will and they're included in your brochure. I believe

596
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:43,040
Can you bring them in here? We will bring them in person. Yeah, we will do that. Okay.

597
00:46:45,740 --> 00:46:47,080
I'm sorry miss president

598
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:50,740
May I I'm sorry Alan. Did you want to go mine's really quick? Yeah

599
00:46:51,380 --> 00:46:53,680
Daba one more thing too. This is kind of in the weeds, but

600
00:46:53,680 --> 00:47:02,700
But if I could get an exhibit to show me where, like, right-of-way city is versus private parking

601
00:47:02,700 --> 00:47:07,100
or private streets, let me tell you where I'm going with this, I have noticed in some

602
00:47:07,100 --> 00:47:15,400
developments when we had, like, visitor parking that it becomes residential parking.

603
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:23,500
parking, and I'd like to consider anything that's on private property to be signed as

604
00:47:23,500 --> 00:47:32,420
visitor or no residential parking so that that parking remains visitor parking and it doesn't

605
00:47:32,420 --> 00:47:36,320
become the auxiliary parking spot for somebody who wants to put a bunch of stuff in their

606
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:36,600
garage.

607
00:47:37,300 --> 00:47:37,660
Thanks.

608
00:47:41,140 --> 00:47:45,720
I'll give it to Florida Allen in just a moment, but just to add some color to that.

609
00:47:45,720 --> 00:47:50,580
I agree with the spirit of that comment, but I would like to explore that in more detail

610
00:47:50,580 --> 00:47:56,880
at committee because when we start putting labels or restrictions on the use of parking

611
00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:00,580
spaces, we end up with a need for more parking spaces in total.

612
00:48:01,700 --> 00:48:08,460
And sometimes those designated spaces sit unused when that is not the intent of your

613
00:48:08,460 --> 00:48:09,100
ask.

614
00:48:09,100 --> 00:48:13,300
So I'd like to explore that further.

615
00:48:13,700 --> 00:48:28,560
I think you understand Mr. Kirsch's goal, and I share that, but not to the detriment of creating empty islands of asphalt just to keep people from storing their stuff out in a parking spot.

616
00:48:30,510 --> 00:48:36,190
to that point I thought there was going to be a neighborhood ordinance that they

617
00:48:36,190 --> 00:48:42,030
could not convert their garages into storage is that still still part of it

618
00:48:42,030 --> 00:48:48,690
it's specified in the PUD as a zoning requirement yes okay Alan thank you Mr.

619
00:48:48,810 --> 00:48:56,030
President either to staff or or to John I was we've heard tonight several

620
00:48:56,030 --> 00:49:05,230
All remonstrators refer to this area in here as having or being a forest, the word forest.

621
00:49:06,430 --> 00:49:12,390
And I don't know if it's a forest or not, but I wanted to find out if it's a forest

622
00:49:12,390 --> 00:49:19,530
and the definition and if there are restrictions, if it is a forest over and above what our

623
00:49:19,530 --> 00:49:22,790
ordinance calls for, that we have to follow because it's a forest.

624
00:49:22,790 --> 00:49:31,930
forest. Similar to what federal mandates apply to waterways, certain waterways have to have

625
00:49:31,930 --> 00:49:38,710
more permits. The same thing happened if this is considered to be a, quote, forest, designated

626
00:49:38,710 --> 00:49:46,210
forest. And the other thing has some type of a species inventory already been done

627
00:49:46,210 --> 00:49:49,890
on this piece of ground. We know what we're dealing with here.

628
00:49:52,310 --> 00:49:54,670
The petitioner has not done a species inventory.

629
00:49:55,450 --> 00:50:01,170
We'll work with staff on determining and confirming that there are no other designations outside of zoning,

630
00:50:01,990 --> 00:50:04,590
which we know from the zoning standpoint there are no restrictions.

631
00:50:05,570 --> 00:50:08,170
But we'll find out if there's any ancillary restrictions,

632
00:50:08,310 --> 00:50:12,870
whether it's city code or state statute, that would reference removal of trees.

633
00:50:15,380 --> 00:50:15,760
Thanks.

634
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:16,780
And

635
00:50:19,140 --> 00:50:24,880
one, or actually two comments, one that kind of unites those two issues, John.

636
00:50:25,300 --> 00:50:30,420
And I lost this battle at the PUD stage, but I'll bring it up one last time here.

637
00:50:30,940 --> 00:50:36,480
And that is the on-street parking on the main street.

638
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:41,960
So it would be between the pond and the street along the north edge of the property.

639
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:50,040
If those spaces are still necessary, I guess what would be the variance that would be necessary

640
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:54,300
to remove them in terms of not meeting a parking standard?

641
00:50:55,200 --> 00:51:00,340
If there is, if there are trees in that location today that can be saved,

642
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:05,960
my own preference would be to save those trees not to put on-street parking

643
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:10,200
and a multi-use path or sidewalk along the north edge of that street.

644
00:51:11,420 --> 00:51:15,520
And for reference by the Planning Commission, this is the second to last page in the brochure.

645
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:18,060
It's a parking exhibit.

646
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:23,000
It identifies the location of on-street parking as well as the other ancillary parking spaces

647
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:27,600
that Mr. Kerr should refer to right there that would be within a common area, although

648
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:31,320
be it that they would be accessing the roadway, they'd be head in spaces.

649
00:51:31,740 --> 00:51:38,980
So there are proposed on-street parking spaces along the front of townhomes that

650
00:51:38,980 --> 00:51:43,360
face the park, but not on the north side of the street. I think there were previously

651
00:51:43,980 --> 00:51:49,200
spaces along the north side of the street that we had parking. And we did adjust everything

652
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:55,240
to the south as much as possible to only provide the tree lawn, a narrower street with the

653
00:51:55,240 --> 00:52:02,260
tree lawn and the path along that north edge in response to a lot of the comments that

654
00:52:02,260 --> 00:52:02,800
we had heard previously.

655
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:04,280
Thank you.

656
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:09,740
But we are meeting the minimum number of on-street parking spaces that we had agreed to through

657
00:52:09,740 --> 00:52:10,100
the zoning.

658
00:52:10,580 --> 00:52:10,840
Okay.

659
00:52:11,140 --> 00:52:11,580
Thank you.

660
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:17,080
And then, the point was brought up earlier about the southwest common area that the

661
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:24,060
PUD designates as a limited tree preservation area and, in essence, was treated as, I

662
00:52:24,060 --> 00:52:30,380
guess, a game time decision once you're on site and topography is identified and

663
00:52:30,380 --> 00:52:37,320
and the need of access to the surrounding areas for construction, then the petitioner will

664
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:40,260
know whether or how many trees can be saved there.

665
00:52:40,780 --> 00:52:46,680
I guess I would ask about the ability to continue to keep that on the table, so to

666
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:53,680
speak, until that point in time when bulldozers are on site and we absolutely know from

667
00:52:53,680 --> 00:53:01,360
from a site reconnaissance standpoint as opposed to a desktop and paper standpoint, whether

668
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:06,600
or to what extent trees can be saved in that southwest limited tree preservation area.

669
00:53:11,500 --> 00:53:18,440
I have seen some texts this afternoon about commissioners availability on the 6th.

670
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:24,720
So I have some concerns about a quorum for the residential committee on October 6th.

671
00:53:24,720 --> 00:53:31,140
So, I would ask that we will move forward and schedule for the 6th, assuming it goes

672
00:53:31,140 --> 00:53:35,540
to residential committee but ask staff to circle back to the members of that committee

673
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:38,500
and confirm that quorum won't be an issue.

674
00:53:38,980 --> 00:53:44,100
Otherwise, we either have to reschedule or push this out to the November committee meeting.

675
00:53:45,100 --> 00:53:45,700
Thank you.

676
00:53:45,780 --> 00:53:46,640
We will take a look at that.

677
00:53:46,980 --> 00:53:47,360
Thank you.

678
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:52,940
President Graybill, I would move that we send this item to the residential committee

679
00:53:52,940 --> 00:53:57,740
with voting approvals or recommendations coming back to the full Plan Commission.

680
00:53:58,240 --> 00:53:58,520
Second.

681
00:53:59,780 --> 00:54:00,740
Thank you, Mr. Hill.

682
00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:01,780
Thank you, Ms. Cola.

683
00:54:02,140 --> 00:54:05,260
For the second, all in favor of the motion signify by saying aye.

684
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:05,680
Aye.

685
00:54:06,180 --> 00:54:06,680
Any opposed?

686
00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:10,560
For the moment, this will go to the residential committee.

687
00:54:10,780 --> 00:54:13,940
For the moment that date is scheduled as Thursday, October 6th.

688
00:54:14,540 --> 00:54:17,840
That will be in the caucus rooms that are to your right as you exit this room.

689
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:21,740
So with that, John, thank you for your presentation.

690
00:54:21,740 --> 00:54:23,640
We'll see you on October 6th.

691
00:54:26,870 --> 00:54:29,670
We now move to the second item on our agenda.

692
00:54:29,850 --> 00:54:34,330
Before I read this in, I'll ask one of our commissioners who needs to recuse herself to

693
00:54:35,090 --> 00:54:35,770
give us leave.

694
00:54:36,010 --> 00:54:40,430
Yes, President Gravel, I will be recusing myself due to a potential conflict of interest.

695
00:54:40,930 --> 00:54:41,530
Thank you.

696
00:54:41,650 --> 00:54:42,330
We'll see you in a few minutes.

697
00:54:45,580 --> 00:54:53,180
Item 2 on public hearings is docket PZ-2022-00147, ordinance amendment, legacy PUD amendment.

698
00:54:53,180 --> 00:54:59,920
The applicant seeks approval to amend the Legacy PUD text in order to increase the number of permitted units in the PUD

699
00:54:59,920 --> 00:55:02,260
and to increase the number of apartments permitted.

700
00:55:02,740 --> 00:55:06,200
The site is located southwest of 146th Street and Community Drive.

701
00:55:06,660 --> 00:55:11,560
The zoning is Legacy PUD under ordinance Z-501-07 as amended.

702
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:18,280
This petition also is filed by Nelson and Frankenberger LLC on behalf of Advenir Oakley Development LLC.

703
00:55:19,120 --> 00:55:26,120
So with this petition, what the commission is considering this evening and as this petition

704
00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:31,500
moves forward is to change the text and the requirements of the planned unit development

705
00:55:31,500 --> 00:55:36,400
ordinance that governs the entire legacy project.

706
00:55:36,820 --> 00:55:40,880
So we're looking to change the rules of the road, so to speak, for that planned unit

707
00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:41,600
community.

708
00:55:42,540 --> 00:55:43,880
So, John, welcome back.

709
00:55:44,100 --> 00:55:46,320
The floor is yours again for up to 15 minutes.

710
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:47,340
Thank you.

711
00:55:47,340 --> 00:55:48,280
Again,

712
00:55:53,100 --> 00:55:55,580
for the record, John Dabashiewicz with Nelson and Frankenberger.

713
00:55:56,740 --> 00:56:01,020
In regards to this matter, we represent Abernere Oakley Development LLC.

714
00:56:01,580 --> 00:56:03,740
Present tonight on their behalf is Scott Weathers.

715
00:56:04,780 --> 00:56:07,060
Jim Schoenberg, an attorney with our office, is also present.

716
00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:12,780
As indicated, the request before the Planning Commission this evening is a PUD amendment

717
00:56:12,780 --> 00:56:16,640
to the amend portions of the legacy PUD in order to construct a unique residential

718
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:21,400
to be known as LEO, Living Cottages and Multifamily.

719
00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:26,640
By way of general background, the legacy PUD,

720
00:56:27,580 --> 00:56:29,360
I'm going to take a minute to see if I can raise this.

721
00:56:33,420 --> 00:56:33,740
Thank you.

722
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:39,240
By way of general background, the legacy PUD was approved by the City Council in January 2007,

723
00:56:39,980 --> 00:56:41,520
approximately 15 years ago now.

724
00:56:42,140 --> 00:56:48,120
The legacy has been amended one time in 2018 by Oregon Z63718.

725
00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:54,880
The overall legacy development is generally located south of and adjacent to 146th Street

726
00:56:55,560 --> 00:56:58,360
and west of and adjacent to River Road.

727
00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:04,500
The site which is the subject of the proposed amendment is outlined here in yellow and

728
00:57:04,500 --> 00:57:10,240
it's the aerial map which is also included under the tab brochure, tab number two.

729
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:16,520
Subject real estate consists of approximately 32 acres that is located south of and adjacent

730
00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:21,360
adjacent to 146th Street and adjacent to and west of Community Drive.

731
00:57:22,580 --> 00:57:28,120
Today the Legacy PUD has provisions related to use blocks, maximum unique limitations,

732
00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:28,920
and amenities.

733
00:57:29,360 --> 00:57:33,140
In order to allow the proposed community, the following will be addressed through the

734
00:57:33,140 --> 00:57:33,700
PUD amendment.

735
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:41,200
Specifically, the proposed Legacy PUD amendment includes, one, expanding the urban residential

736
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:48,100
use block to the north, two, modifying the maximum unit limitations, and three,

737
00:57:48,580 --> 00:57:53,940
removing future residential from the existing amenity use area. For reference,

738
00:57:54,160 --> 00:57:58,740
the current amenity facility within the legacy is located right here. Again, our

739
00:57:58,740 --> 00:58:02,160
site located adjacent to 146th Street to the north.

740
00:58:09,300 --> 00:58:11,580
Regarding use blocks, the

741
00:58:11,580 --> 00:58:15,720
zoning map for the legacy is on display. Today, the subject real estate is

742
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:17,780
is zoned under the primary office use block.

743
00:58:18,100 --> 00:58:19,300
That's the area here in pink.

744
00:58:20,220 --> 00:58:22,040
The urban residential use block,

745
00:58:22,160 --> 00:58:24,560
which is to the south of that in red.

746
00:58:25,780 --> 00:58:27,380
And the village core use block,

747
00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:31,120
which is adjacent to generally community drive here,

748
00:58:31,460 --> 00:58:32,200
the area in purple.

749
00:58:34,350 --> 00:58:36,570
The primary use block is shown in pink again,

750
00:58:36,790 --> 00:58:38,530
and it's an area along 146th Street,

751
00:58:38,590 --> 00:58:40,430
and it's approximately nine acres in area.

752
00:58:42,110 --> 00:58:45,690
As proposed, this use block shall be deleted or removed

753
00:58:45,690 --> 00:58:51,390
improved from the use block map and incorporated into the urban residential use block.

754
00:58:51,950 --> 00:58:53,710
One might ask why this is important.

755
00:58:54,470 --> 00:58:58,790
Today the primary office use block is adjacent to the ridge at legacy to our west.

756
00:58:59,490 --> 00:59:01,870
So that area identified in yellow to our west.

757
00:59:02,290 --> 00:59:04,810
This area is the ridge at legacy.

758
00:59:05,350 --> 00:59:11,010
There's an area or neighborhood referred to as the meadows at legacy located generally

759
00:59:11,010 --> 00:59:11,390
here.

760
00:59:11,390 --> 00:59:17,070
the overlook at legacy is over here and the grove at legacy is the area where

761
00:59:17,070 --> 00:59:20,850
fine craft builders is building both two family dwellings and single family

762
00:59:20,850 --> 00:59:26,270
dwellings. Permitted uses within that primary office use block again the nine

763
00:59:26,270 --> 00:59:32,510
acres and pink include office and retail uses, residential wafts, over

764
00:59:32,510 --> 00:59:38,670
retail or office and structured parking among other uses. The development

765
00:59:38,670 --> 00:59:44,710
standards for this space, this is nine acres, include a maximum of 60-foot building height

766
00:59:44,710 --> 00:59:50,910
limitations, which would accommodate five-story buildings. The minimum requirement within that

767
00:59:50,910 --> 00:59:57,030
primary office use block is a two-story building, but again it can go up to five

768
00:59:57,030 --> 00:59:59,510
stories in height. There are 160

769
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:06,620
162 lofts, remaining authorized overall within the legacy PUD, all of which could be for rent.

770
01:00:07,640 --> 01:00:14,300
Those loft spaces, in addition to those in senior housing, are above and beyond the standards

771
01:00:14,300 --> 01:00:19,440
which apply to the base unit development, which we're asking for an amendment to. So this development

772
01:00:19,440 --> 01:00:23,580
scenario would include a change to the base development unit, but would no longer permit

773
01:00:23,580 --> 01:00:31,700
hit as many as 162 lofts as well as 225 senior living apartments which are above and beyond

774
01:00:31,700 --> 01:00:33,660
the base unit limitation within the PUD.

775
01:00:34,700 --> 01:00:39,020
There's no limitation in that office, primary office use block regarding the square footage.

776
01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:44,760
It's estimated and will provide a basic site plan at the committee level.

777
01:00:44,900 --> 01:00:49,360
It's estimated that it would accommodate approximately 150,000 square foot of office

778
01:00:49,360 --> 01:00:54,660
issues, which would include lofts and structured parking, again, within five-story buildings

779
01:00:54,660 --> 01:00:59,900
on the approximate nine acres in size, and we're going to, at committee, provide an example

780
01:00:59,900 --> 01:01:05,340
site plan of how that might all be laid out under the current ordinance, as was described

781
01:01:05,340 --> 01:01:06,300
by the Plan Commission.

782
01:01:06,700 --> 01:01:12,960
The last item on your agenda was a review for compliance with the DP and ADLS standards.

783
01:01:14,260 --> 01:01:18,520
The idea being a petitioner, and we're not proposing this,

784
01:01:18,600 --> 01:01:21,800
a petitioner could return to you in the future with a plan that complies,

785
01:01:22,180 --> 01:01:25,080
which would include that level of office development,

786
01:01:25,320 --> 01:01:26,880
structure parking, five-story buildings,

787
01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:30,600
all throughout that primary office use space.

788
01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:33,840
Again, we're trying to establish a basis for review.

789
01:01:34,400 --> 01:01:36,240
We're not proposing that level of development.

790
01:01:39,880 --> 01:01:42,600
The Village Core Use Block, that area in purple,

791
01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:49,340
also occupies approximately nine acres in this development space. Permitted uses there

792
01:01:49,340 --> 01:01:56,160
include retail uses, apartment uses, general office, medical health uses, residential lofts,

793
01:01:56,160 --> 01:02:00,220
and structure parking as well. The only real difference between the primary office area

794
01:02:00,700 --> 01:02:05,260
in that village core area is that the primary office area does not authorize apartments.

795
01:02:06,680 --> 01:02:11,340
We're not proposing apartments within that space, but that's the distinction between

796
01:02:11,340 --> 01:02:16,200
between those two spaces, because from a development standard standpoint within that village core area,

797
01:02:16,720 --> 01:02:20,620
you still allow 60 foot building heights by right, five stories.

798
01:02:22,260 --> 01:02:26,360
Minimum two stories is still required. If you're familiar with Dr. John Community Drive,

799
01:02:26,600 --> 01:02:31,580
there's the J.C. Hart apartments on the east side of the street. Most of those buildings, if not all,

800
01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:37,520
are all three stories in height. 120 apartments are authorized today.

801
01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:43,460
We're not asking the plan commission to allow multi-family or for rent in this space multi-family

802
01:02:43,980 --> 01:02:49,040
For rent is permitted today, and there's 120 dwelling units that can be developed as apartments

803
01:02:49,040 --> 01:02:55,100
Those apartments as you'll see in a minute based on our presentation are going to be up along community drive

804
01:02:55,640 --> 01:02:59,840
Again within this area the area in purple. There's no limitation on non-residential uses

805
01:03:00,560 --> 01:03:07,360
We'll have a example site plan that we can show you at committee that would illustrate as much as a hundred eighty thousand square feet

806
01:03:08,060 --> 01:03:12,040
of non-residential in addition to the 120 apartments.

807
01:03:12,920 --> 01:03:14,480
The urban residential use block,

808
01:03:14,600 --> 01:03:16,200
the last use block that area identified

809
01:03:16,200 --> 01:03:17,140
in the dark red here,

810
01:03:17,480 --> 01:03:19,880
that includes approximately 13 acres.

811
01:03:20,920 --> 01:03:23,120
Again, five-story building heights

812
01:03:23,120 --> 01:03:24,480
are permitted throughout that space.

813
01:03:25,100 --> 01:03:28,480
There's a total of 153 authorized dwellings

814
01:03:28,480 --> 01:03:29,620
left within the village.

815
01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:30,580
Those are base units.

816
01:03:31,100 --> 01:03:31,880
And I know it's gonna start

817
01:03:31,880 --> 01:03:33,140
to get really complicated here,

818
01:03:33,520 --> 01:03:35,520
but we'll show you the spreadsheet

819
01:03:35,520 --> 01:03:37,280
that's in the ordinance at committee

820
01:03:37,280 --> 01:03:39,100
and we'll dive down a little deeper.

821
01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:44,080
There's actually 1,800 units authorized under the existing ordinance, if you do, senior

822
01:03:44,080 --> 01:03:49,320
housing and loss and the commercial development that would be associated with that.

823
01:03:49,820 --> 01:03:53,920
But there's 153 units under base density allowed today.

824
01:03:54,720 --> 01:04:01,080
If 120 of those were developed as multifamily, multi-story apartment buildings, there

825
01:04:01,080 --> 01:04:06,220
would be a remaining 33 that could be constructed as part of detachment or attached dwellings.

826
01:04:06,220 --> 01:04:12,300
Again, apartments are permitted use within the Urban Residential Use Block, so those apartments

827
01:04:12,300 --> 01:04:15,120
could be located anywhere within that space.

828
01:04:15,340 --> 01:04:21,020
The distinction here within the Urban Residential Use Block is that those commercial uses aren't

829
01:04:21,020 --> 01:04:22,380
authorized within that space.

830
01:04:22,500 --> 01:04:27,020
They're relegated to the space along 146th Street and Community Drive.

831
01:04:28,060 --> 01:04:30,480
So combined, again, the site is 32 acres in area.

832
01:04:31,140 --> 01:04:38,920
Today, without amendment, as many as 315 dwellings, 153 combined departments detached as well as

833
01:04:38,920 --> 01:04:42,900
162 lofts would be permitted within the 32 acres.

834
01:04:43,060 --> 01:04:48,960
Advancing a plan, including this format, would include DPDLS review for compliance with the

835
01:04:48,960 --> 01:04:50,220
legacy PUD requirements.

836
01:04:51,120 --> 01:04:55,260
Again, 60-foot tall five-story buildings are permitted across the full extent of

837
01:04:55,260 --> 01:04:58,780
the subject real estate within that space, and I draw your attention to that because

838
01:04:58,780 --> 01:05:01,180
is the plan that we'll describe momentarily

839
01:05:01,180 --> 01:05:02,660
is distinctly different from that

840
01:05:02,660 --> 01:05:05,460
in terms of building height and use within that space.

841
01:05:12,020 --> 01:05:13,460
This is the proposed site plan

842
01:05:13,460 --> 01:05:14,800
that's included within your ordinance.

843
01:05:17,320 --> 01:05:18,940
I apologize, one other topic

844
01:05:18,940 --> 01:05:20,560
that I wanted to go into more detail on

845
01:05:20,560 --> 01:05:21,620
and we can get into this committee.

846
01:05:22,660 --> 01:05:24,380
So that's the use block discussion.

847
01:05:24,500 --> 01:05:25,740
The other discussion is with regard

848
01:05:25,740 --> 01:05:27,360
to the maximum number of dwelling units.

849
01:05:27,900 --> 01:05:28,980
As I indicated previously,

850
01:05:29,220 --> 01:05:31,160
there was one prior amendment to the PUD

851
01:05:31,160 --> 01:05:34,300
regarding the base units being reduced

852
01:05:34,300 --> 01:05:38,060
from 1344 to 15, rather, to 1250.

853
01:05:39,000 --> 01:05:48,160
In part, in 2018, when that was done, it was done to limit the amount of development that

854
01:05:48,160 --> 01:05:52,540
could contribute or the amount of homes that would be going to the amenity that was planned

855
01:05:52,540 --> 01:05:56,420
within the legacy along Cherry Creek Boulevard.

856
01:06:00,480 --> 01:06:05,140
However, as noted, this is fewer than the total number of dwelling units that could

857
01:06:05,140 --> 01:06:10,220
be developed under the permitted development scenarios, including office loss, as well

858
01:06:10,220 --> 01:06:15,120
as CCRC units or senior housing dwelling units that are permitted today.

859
01:06:16,800 --> 01:06:20,940
Additionally, the proposed development, as you see here, is less intense from a traffic

860
01:06:20,940 --> 01:06:21,940
generation standpoint.

861
01:06:22,500 --> 01:06:26,720
As I described, this would include the space that would otherwise potentially be office

862
01:06:26,720 --> 01:06:27,580
with loss above.

863
01:06:28,840 --> 01:06:33,760
We have a traffic study that's been prepared, an analysis that would show the difference

864
01:06:33,760 --> 01:06:39,780
between the authorized traffic generation and the proposed trip generation for this use.

865
01:06:44,740 --> 01:06:48,360
Now regarding the proposed site plan is depicted on this exhibit.

866
01:06:48,580 --> 01:06:50,580
It's also included behind tab four of your brochures.

867
01:06:50,720 --> 01:06:56,060
The community will be a multifamily residential development comprised of approximately 230

868
01:06:56,060 --> 01:07:02,460
single family attached and detached rental homes and 120 traditional garden style apartments

869
01:07:02,460 --> 01:07:05,720
in three buildings, which would be adjacent to community drive.

870
01:07:05,720 --> 01:07:12,280
So the three buildings here shown in purple are opposite J.C. Hart and their buildings,

871
01:07:12,500 --> 01:07:18,080
multi-story, predominantly apartments within those buildings with some supporting uses

872
01:07:18,720 --> 01:07:23,900
along the first floor of at least one of the buildings. The balance of dwellings on the

873
01:07:23,900 --> 01:07:29,360
site, all these shown in brown and blue, are one and two-story dwellings. There's photographic

874
01:07:29,360 --> 01:07:32,560
examples that I'll show you in a minute, as well as details regarding that architecture

875
01:07:32,560 --> 01:07:34,400
structure in your plans.

876
01:07:36,060 --> 01:07:40,740
In addition to this residential component, the site includes an approximately two-acre

877
01:07:40,740 --> 01:07:41,180
parcel.

878
01:07:41,900 --> 01:07:45,940
This area identified here in green that would be opposite the existing commercial that

879
01:07:45,940 --> 01:07:50,540
would be developed in accordance with the Village Corps standards within the PUD.

880
01:07:51,600 --> 01:07:57,140
The community, this proposal will continue the existing streets in the legacy, both

881
01:07:57,140 --> 01:08:01,820
Larson Drive and James Dean Drive and Hopewell Parkway will continue to extend

882
01:08:01,820 --> 01:08:04,820
and north-south and east-west across the site

883
01:08:05,280 --> 01:08:07,740
with an additional write-in, write-out access point,

884
01:08:07,840 --> 01:08:09,680
which is authorized under the existing ordinance

885
01:08:09,680 --> 01:08:10,940
onto 146th Street.

886
01:08:17,750 --> 01:08:19,430
I'm not going to go into great deal-tail

887
01:08:19,430 --> 01:08:20,450
about the home design.

888
01:08:20,610 --> 01:08:23,450
There's lots of images, imagery and images

889
01:08:23,450 --> 01:08:25,070
in the brochure that's been provided

890
01:08:25,070 --> 01:08:25,930
to the Planning Commission,

891
01:08:26,590 --> 01:08:29,770
only to say this is an example of another community

892
01:08:30,350 --> 01:08:32,350
that Avenir was involved in

893
01:08:32,350 --> 01:08:35,130
and the home architecture is very similar,

894
01:08:35,210 --> 01:08:36,670
if not identical in most respects

895
01:08:36,670 --> 01:08:40,450
to the dwellings that you see attached to these images.

896
01:08:43,650 --> 01:08:47,930
They're included behind tab five, the photographic examples of which are shown here.

897
01:08:48,550 --> 01:08:51,250
The majority of homes will feature front patios or porches,

898
01:08:51,410 --> 01:08:53,810
private rear yards, and multiple side windows.

899
01:08:54,390 --> 01:08:58,010
If not connected to individual units, additional garages will be available.

900
01:08:58,830 --> 01:09:01,530
There are some units that have garages that are attached.

901
01:09:02,370 --> 01:09:06,930
There are others that have garage units that are located in a building

902
01:09:06,930 --> 01:09:09,530
with a dwelling unit above and three garages below,

903
01:09:09,850 --> 01:09:12,530
one of which is entitled to that individual dwelling,

904
01:09:12,630 --> 01:09:17,210
but the other two are for lease as well as the dwelling unit.

905
01:09:22,490 --> 01:09:24,490
Two amenity facilities, one anchored

906
01:09:26,870 --> 01:09:29,310
by the 1950 square foot pool,

907
01:09:29,750 --> 01:09:31,430
which includes ample space for seating.

908
01:09:32,170 --> 01:09:34,130
The example, which is shown here,

909
01:09:34,270 --> 01:09:37,170
is nearly identical to the architecture

910
01:09:37,170 --> 01:09:39,850
that's proposed for this site and the layout.

911
01:09:39,850 --> 01:09:46,290
In addition to the clubhouse and additional 1500 square foot building area will be constructed as part of the amenity space

912
01:09:46,290 --> 01:09:50,790
Which we would it would be included in one of the three buildings along community Drive

913
01:09:51,590 --> 01:09:56,190
Other thoughtful amenities including pocket parks are strategically interspersed throughout the site

914
01:09:56,730 --> 01:10:00,890
Again all amenity open space and landscaping will be owned and maintained by the developer

915
01:10:02,510 --> 01:10:06,990
Regarding amenities the real estate shall not be part of the association entitled

916
01:10:06,990 --> 01:10:09,610
to the use of the existing amount of facility

917
01:10:09,610 --> 01:10:12,050
which serves the other neighborhoods within the legacy.

918
01:10:12,470 --> 01:10:14,870
Therefore, the number of future families

919
01:10:14,870 --> 01:10:16,790
served by the existing amount of facility

920
01:10:17,330 --> 01:10:19,530
would be reduced by 153,

921
01:10:19,570 --> 01:10:22,730
which is the authorized number of dwelling units

922
01:10:22,730 --> 01:10:25,250
that are authorized today under the ordinance,

923
01:10:25,430 --> 01:10:27,850
which if built would be entitled to use

924
01:10:27,850 --> 01:10:30,510
from the amenity facilities there today.

925
01:10:30,670 --> 01:10:33,930
But again, this would pull that number

926
01:10:33,930 --> 01:10:38,790
off of the number that's entitled to use of that today and provide amenities internal.

927
01:10:40,490 --> 01:10:45,490
Also with regard to this space, the amenity area as well as office leasing area would

928
01:10:45,490 --> 01:10:51,090
be built on the front end and would be completed before occupancy by any residents within the

929
01:10:51,090 --> 01:10:51,450
community.

930
01:10:51,610 --> 01:10:55,990
I know that was a sticking point early on within the legacy, but all amenities would

931
01:10:55,990 --> 01:11:00,150
be constructed on the front end and that wouldn't be an issue in this situation.

932
01:11:00,150 --> 01:11:10,620
In conclusion, the proposed development does not include general office, residential loss or

933
01:11:10,620 --> 01:11:15,480
structured parking that other uses currently permitted within the primary office use area would

934
01:11:15,480 --> 01:11:20,560
be entitled to. The cottages and amenities are proposed for this area. This should result

935
01:11:20,560 --> 01:11:25,500
in significant reduction of the level of traffic and currently anticipated based on the

936
01:11:25,500 --> 01:11:30,420
permitted uses within the Legacy PUD. The proposal doesn't include general office

937
01:11:30,420 --> 01:11:34,800
office uses and residential loss, as would be otherwise anticipated within the village

938
01:11:34,800 --> 01:11:40,840
core area. The cottages and multifamily apartments are proposed for this space. The proposed amendment

939
01:11:40,840 --> 01:11:45,700
requires Avenir Oakley to construct their own amenities, which, as described, would

940
01:11:45,700 --> 01:11:50,620
be provided on the front end. Otherwise, the zone today, those 153 units would be

941
01:11:50,620 --> 01:11:55,360
authorized to use the amenities that are in the space today. We have a staff report

942
01:11:55,360 --> 01:12:01,840
support from DOCS will continue to work with them on their outstanding items and we'd be

943
01:12:01,840 --> 01:12:08,000
glad to address questions that you have now and anticipate this item would be sent to

944
01:12:08,000 --> 01:12:12,460
committee on October 6th, but if that date changes, we'll make our sales available at

945
01:12:12,460 --> 01:12:12,780
that date.

946
01:12:13,460 --> 01:12:14,040
Thank you.

947
01:12:14,720 --> 01:12:15,460
Thank you.

948
01:12:16,760 --> 01:12:18,300
Time to catch your breath or grab some water.

949
01:12:20,000 --> 01:12:24,980
While the public has their turn, the public hearing continues with comments from members

950
01:12:24,980 --> 01:12:29,200
of the public. Again, may I see a show of hands please of those of you who wish to speak

951
01:12:29,200 --> 01:12:29,840
on this petition?

952
01:12:32,750 --> 01:12:38,770
One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. Okay, we have

953
01:12:38,770 --> 01:12:43,290
20. Oh, did I just see two more hands go up or one?

954
01:12:43,430 --> 01:12:46,050
One more time if you don't mind. I think we've got five over here.

955
01:12:46,990 --> 01:12:53,650
Okay, now we've got five or six on the right, my right half of the room and one,

956
01:12:53,650 --> 01:13:00,930
One, two, three, four, six on this side, so 11, 20 minutes, so Joe, set the timer please

957
01:13:00,930 --> 01:13:02,130
for two minutes per speaker.

958
01:13:03,210 --> 01:13:07,470
The two minutes may not sound like a lot of time, but if you avoid repeating comments

959
01:13:07,470 --> 01:13:12,290
that we've heard from earlier speakers or that we've heard through letters, then you

960
01:13:12,290 --> 01:13:14,910
can cover new ground during your two minutes of speaking time.

961
01:13:15,650 --> 01:13:20,190
Again, if the first few people would approach the microphone or line up behind the first

962
01:13:20,190 --> 01:13:26,470
speaker that would be appreciated to keep things moving along. Again we need your

963
01:13:26,470 --> 01:13:32,710
name please and the area of Carmel where you live. We do not need your home

964
01:13:32,710 --> 01:13:33,510
address though.

965
01:13:41,040 --> 01:13:46,020
My name is Philip Cosmus. I live on the in the Carmel View area in

966
01:13:46,020 --> 01:13:51,000
downtown Carmel. My parents live on the east side of Carmel and I routinely

967
01:13:51,000 --> 01:13:58,640
Finally riding my bike in this area and in 2018 I was riding on Hopewell Avenue and I

968
01:13:58,640 --> 01:14:09,100
got t-boned by a person in a car coming off of the bell view that comes off of 146th Street

969
01:14:10,160 --> 01:14:14,780
and I was in the hospital and I'm out of commission for a few weeks so I just wanted

970
01:14:14,780 --> 01:14:21,840
I think the there's no stop sign there. I don't believe for the cars traveling into the neighborhood

971
01:14:22,420 --> 01:14:26,980
And they're going at a high rate of speed and I just wanted to bring that to the attention

972
01:14:26,980 --> 01:14:32,060
Actually didn't come here for this tonight, but I thought it was appropriate to mention that so

973
01:14:32,660 --> 01:14:35,060
Thank you. Thank you. Glad you're doing better

974
01:14:36,580 --> 01:14:42,860
Yes, sir. My name is Steve emel. I live at Cherry Creek States and

975
01:14:45,540 --> 01:14:52,780
If you looked at 146th Street between 330 and 5 o'clock, the traffic is lined up.

976
01:14:54,660 --> 01:14:58,900
He failed to tell you what's going across the street on the Noblesville side.

977
01:15:00,080 --> 01:15:04,900
We have the apartments, I think they're called Greystone, and they just cleared all of the

978
01:15:04,900 --> 01:15:10,860
mobile homes across the street, and Noblesville's developing that area. So we're just going

979
01:15:10,860 --> 01:15:17,020
to add more and more traffic to 146th Street. When we go out of our neighborhood, we try

980
01:15:17,020 --> 01:15:24,280
to go back to the back roads, and now legacies open that area up. I believe it's Cherry

981
01:15:24,280 --> 01:15:30,340
Creek Drive is just the traffic just getting unreal so you better look at the

982
01:15:30,340 --> 01:15:34,400
development across the street in Noblesville that's going on right now

983
01:15:34,400 --> 01:15:41,440
and you add this to it 146th Street will be bad news for everybody thank you thank

984
01:15:41,440 --> 01:15:47,980
you hi there everyone Lee Cipriani I live in legacy Meadows I'm gonna be

985
01:15:47,980 --> 01:15:51,360
really specific on where I actually live even though I know you asked for

986
01:15:51,360 --> 01:15:54,300
generalities, but I think this will play into the plan.

987
01:15:54,640 --> 01:15:57,120
So I live on James Dean Drive, and in the proposal,

988
01:15:57,220 --> 01:16:01,240
this is going to connect to 146th Street directly.

989
01:16:02,160 --> 01:16:05,760
Now I have twin seven-year-olds that are at Prairie Trace

990
01:16:05,760 --> 01:16:06,220
Elementary.

991
01:16:07,260 --> 01:16:11,420
In current schools, and if you live at a mile radius

992
01:16:11,420 --> 01:16:13,660
to the schools, you have no bus.

993
01:16:14,960 --> 01:16:17,260
I also am a working mother, and I

994
01:16:17,260 --> 01:16:20,040
know that as I commute downtown each day,

995
01:16:20,040 --> 01:16:25,000
when I have to write, I look for the fastest route to get where I need to go.

996
01:16:25,740 --> 01:16:30,320
I also have seen 146 during the time of 3.30 to 5.00 p.m.

997
01:16:30,980 --> 01:16:34,500
and I know how congested it gets and I know that if this goes through

998
01:16:34,500 --> 01:16:40,580
and if there is a direct route from 146 through James Dean Drive to community

999
01:16:40,580 --> 01:16:46,300
that then can get someone to River Road to then get to 4.65 or wherever they need to go,

1000
01:16:46,460 --> 01:16:48,240
they will be flying through my neighborhood.

1001
01:16:48,240 --> 01:16:52,460
flying through children on bikes or walking home from school.

1002
01:16:53,160 --> 01:17:00,500
You will put our children at a direct risk as they walk from school when they get released, right?

1003
01:17:00,940 --> 01:17:04,680
So you have a massive safety impact day in and day out.

1004
01:17:05,080 --> 01:17:08,780
I see accidents happen at that intersection of 146 and River.

1005
01:17:09,320 --> 01:17:16,080
All the time, I think all of us that live in that area have heard an increase over time in emergency response vehicles.

1006
01:17:16,080 --> 01:17:21,700
And as we speak to emergency response vehicles, I think I'd like to further understand how

1007
01:17:21,700 --> 01:17:28,440
the increase in the number of residents will be handled in emergency response.

1008
01:17:29,580 --> 01:17:34,100
In fire, in paramedics, right?

1009
01:17:34,420 --> 01:17:35,620
How will this be handled?

1010
01:17:36,540 --> 01:17:37,920
Then let's go back to schools.

1011
01:17:38,900 --> 01:17:42,400
How are you going to handle the increase of students?

1012
01:17:42,400 --> 01:17:47,420
not just in handling spaces and seats but with teachers

1013
01:17:48,300 --> 01:17:53,240
and handling aides, school psychologists, cafeteria workers.

1014
01:17:53,920 --> 01:17:55,560
We already know you don't have bus drivers

1015
01:17:55,560 --> 01:17:58,240
because if you live in a mile radius, you don't have a bus.

1016
01:17:59,240 --> 01:18:01,040
So how are you going to handle all of this?

1017
01:18:01,700 --> 01:18:02,880
I think there's more time for people.

1018
01:18:03,460 --> 01:18:04,220
But there's a few points.

1019
01:18:05,640 --> 01:18:06,260
Thank you.

1020
01:18:09,160 --> 01:18:09,780
Good evening.

1021
01:18:10,020 --> 01:18:10,880
My name is Tanya Miller.

1022
01:18:11,120 --> 01:18:13,060
I live at the Ridge in Legacy.

1023
01:18:13,060 --> 01:18:15,740
So this is very near and dear to my heart.

1024
01:18:16,240 --> 01:18:17,400
I've lived in Carmel since 1995.

1025
01:18:18,140 --> 01:18:20,800
So I've seen a lot of development happen in the community.

1026
01:18:20,960 --> 01:18:22,700
Most of it I very much agree with.

1027
01:18:23,040 --> 01:18:24,880
But when I bought into that neighborhood specifically,

1028
01:18:25,580 --> 01:18:28,500
I bought into it because of the multi-use and the plan use.

1029
01:18:28,640 --> 01:18:31,980
There's a tremendous amount of green area, and it's just beautiful.

1030
01:18:32,580 --> 01:18:34,080
So then we have apartments.

1031
01:18:34,600 --> 01:18:36,580
We have plenty of space.

1032
01:18:37,300 --> 01:18:40,320
So for me to rezone this, it's going to have a direct impact.

1033
01:18:40,320 --> 01:18:43,460
I mean, I don't want to talk about traffic and I don't want to reiterate what we've heard,

1034
01:18:43,720 --> 01:18:48,320
but I would just urge that, you know, we take a look at maybe other areas of Carmel that

1035
01:18:48,320 --> 01:18:52,420
could potentially be developed because we do have apartments to address what the developers

1036
01:18:52,420 --> 01:18:53,320
trying to accomplish.

1037
01:18:54,340 --> 01:18:58,120
And then, you know, we need more businesses in that area.

1038
01:18:58,880 --> 01:19:02,140
That's not what was originally sold was we were supposed to have businesses along

1039
01:19:02,740 --> 01:19:03,220
146th Street.

1040
01:19:03,560 --> 01:19:07,000
And as someone that lives there, I love the idea of being able to ride my bike

1041
01:19:07,000 --> 01:19:12,200
to go have dinner or, you know, get my nails done or whatever it might be, so to remove

1042
01:19:12,200 --> 01:19:20,200
that is very disheartening. And I think that pretty much sums it up. So that's it. Thanks

1043
01:19:20,200 --> 01:19:20,480
so much.

1044
01:19:21,220 --> 01:19:21,740
Thank you.

1045
01:19:24,540 --> 01:19:28,400
Hi, I'm Gary Richman. I live in Moffitt Farms, which is less than two miles away. She

1046
01:19:28,400 --> 01:19:32,280
kind of stole my thunder. That's the kind of area I was going. I'm not against development

1047
01:19:32,280 --> 01:19:35,960
in that area at all. I don't particularly think that the plains, there's not like

1048
01:19:35,960 --> 01:19:40,420
a wooded area with animals and said it's kind of a sore sight.

1049
01:19:41,040 --> 01:19:42,220
So I don't mind the development.

1050
01:19:42,460 --> 01:19:49,120
I look forward to, you get excited when small business comes in and this whole legacy was

1051
01:19:49,120 --> 01:19:52,700
built around urban development, walkability.

1052
01:19:53,200 --> 01:19:58,500
The papers today that the lawyers put in the docket talks about walkability.

1053
01:19:58,880 --> 01:20:01,780
They're going to take away all the primary office space, where are you going to walk

1054
01:20:01,780 --> 01:20:01,980
to?

1055
01:20:03,140 --> 01:20:04,480
I'm not against development.

1056
01:20:04,480 --> 01:20:10,620
I just don't think this is the right type of development and nobody gets excited about rentals. You know we passed by

1057
01:20:11,400 --> 01:20:19,460
The new businesses that opened up there were like Wendy's and hot yoga and some Mexican places going up and a new vet office

1058
01:20:19,460 --> 01:20:22,180
We drive by and I'm like I have a teenage daughter look Gabby

1059
01:20:22,180 --> 01:20:26,720
We can go ride our bikes to Wendy's this weekend, right tell my daughter. Let's

1060
01:20:27,580 --> 01:20:31,940
Let's our vet isn't brought up. We're tired of the drive look we can go to the vet office

1061
01:20:31,940 --> 01:20:36,640
Let's move here. I've seen some good reviews about this. Where's the small business? Do

1062
01:20:36,640 --> 01:20:41,380
we want to support small business in this area? That's how the plan was sold to everyone.

1063
01:20:41,880 --> 01:20:48,020
They want to take that away or most of it away. I think that's the main reason not that this

1064
01:20:48,020 --> 01:20:51,940
should go to the commission to talk about and just kind of reject this proposal. It's

1065
01:20:51,940 --> 01:20:54,900
just not the right type of development. I think we can get better stuff in.

1066
01:20:55,460 --> 01:20:56,500
Thank you.

1067
01:20:56,500 --> 01:20:57,000
Thank you.

1068
01:20:57,000 --> 01:20:57,060
Thank you.

1069
01:21:00,040 --> 01:21:01,800
John Renwick, I live in the ridge.

1070
01:21:02,760 --> 01:21:04,620
To piggyback, sorry to hit you guys three in a row.

1071
01:21:04,820 --> 01:21:08,220
I moved here from New York, walkable community, same type of thing.

1072
01:21:08,380 --> 01:21:09,300
I have three small children.

1073
01:21:09,640 --> 01:21:13,820
I'd love to walk and get ice cream, go to a Mexican restaurant, have a drink and walk

1074
01:21:13,820 --> 01:21:14,540
home from that.

1075
01:21:15,060 --> 01:21:17,260
This community was originally designed and built for that.

1076
01:21:17,640 --> 01:21:20,160
If we change the pud, we're just going to put a bunch of apartments in there.

1077
01:21:20,860 --> 01:21:21,720
There's nowhere to walk to.

1078
01:21:21,820 --> 01:21:24,180
I mean, this is Indiana, so there's hardly any place to walk to anyway.

1079
01:21:24,180 --> 01:21:29,880
Anyway, but at least we've had some restaurants and some places to visit there and keep it

1080
01:21:29,880 --> 01:21:31,200
what it was sold to us as.

1081
01:21:31,700 --> 01:21:32,480
It would be great.

1082
01:21:32,980 --> 01:21:33,320
Thank you.

1083
01:21:34,700 --> 01:21:35,420
Thank you.

1084
01:21:37,080 --> 01:21:38,080
Sashi Nothalapati.

1085
01:21:38,420 --> 01:21:41,380
Don't ask me to spell the last name please, I'm just kidding.

1086
01:21:42,620 --> 01:21:44,460
So I leave out the legacy at the ridge.

1087
01:21:45,100 --> 01:21:51,620
Main three points are I'm okay for the original plan because there is a reason why there's

1088
01:21:51,620 --> 01:21:52,920
is a commercial area there, right?

1089
01:21:53,420 --> 01:21:56,320
Because all the communities, everything that comes there,

1090
01:21:56,420 --> 01:21:58,740
like everybody said, then walk there, get some food,

1091
01:21:59,180 --> 01:22:00,220
bike around and all that.

1092
01:22:00,520 --> 01:22:02,120
If we make that everything as apartments,

1093
01:22:02,460 --> 01:22:03,560
then there's nothing there.

1094
01:22:03,680 --> 01:22:06,220
We have to drive for five more, 10 more minutes

1095
01:22:06,220 --> 01:22:07,200
to get something, you know?

1096
01:22:07,640 --> 01:22:08,920
So that feel is gone.

1097
01:22:09,660 --> 01:22:12,720
And already the Cherry Creek road is busy.

1098
01:22:13,460 --> 01:22:15,200
With this number of people, you know,

1099
01:22:15,280 --> 01:22:16,400
it's going to be more busier.

1100
01:22:17,480 --> 01:22:19,480
Right now, we don't know if they're going

1101
01:22:19,480 --> 01:22:20,460
to get a bus or not.

1102
01:22:20,460 --> 01:22:23,960
and next we don't know if they're going to be going to the same school or not.

1103
01:22:24,820 --> 01:22:28,580
So are the schools big enough to accommodate the increase in the population?

1104
01:22:29,220 --> 01:22:31,900
So those are the things I would request you guys to consider

1105
01:22:32,430 --> 01:22:36,400
and also stick with the original plan if you guys can. That would be great. Thank you.

1106
01:22:37,500 --> 01:22:38,080
Thank you.

1107
01:22:42,000 --> 01:22:43,460
My name is William Tenkovich.

1108
01:22:44,140 --> 01:22:47,160
I live in Legacy Ridge. Just moved here about a year ago.

1109
01:22:48,280 --> 01:22:51,360
A couple of points that I just want to bring up that believe

1110
01:22:51,360 --> 01:22:58,940
Our company admin here and the attorneys were bringing up in this conversation right now is that they talked about how the zoning was going to change

1111
01:22:58,940 --> 01:23:00,160
And then it was going to be somehow better

1112
01:23:00,160 --> 01:23:07,440
Well, if you think about it if you look at the senior living that doesn't impact schools likely if that's going to maintain from where it was at

1113
01:23:07,440 --> 01:23:11,080
Before but what we're moving to is going to be multi family housing units

1114
01:23:11,080 --> 01:23:15,260
And it's a large investment portfolio on a very good school very good schools and very good neighborhoods

1115
01:23:15,260 --> 01:23:16,500
That's what they sell against

1116
01:23:17,100 --> 01:23:21,300
And the point of it is that we're increasing 350 units that are going to impact directly

1117
01:23:21,300 --> 01:23:22,120
the schools that are here.

1118
01:23:22,660 --> 01:23:27,280
Those 350 units are going to have a significant impact on teachers' ability, like you already

1119
01:23:27,280 --> 01:23:27,580
heard.

1120
01:23:27,880 --> 01:23:31,140
It's going to have an impact on the traffic, which is largely not going to be done from

1121
01:23:31,480 --> 01:23:31,800
146.

1122
01:23:31,920 --> 01:23:34,860
It's going to be coming through the neighborhood, which is managed by the other HOS.

1123
01:23:35,500 --> 01:23:38,180
That's a huge problem that I have with that, because we're the ones paying for

1124
01:23:38,180 --> 01:23:39,080
the trees to go in.

1125
01:23:39,140 --> 01:23:40,720
We're the ones paying for the grass to be maintained.

1126
01:23:41,140 --> 01:23:43,440
We're the ones paying for that that they will not be contributing to.

1127
01:23:43,980 --> 01:23:47,260
Further on that, I have an issue with who is actually building it, too.

1128
01:23:47,700 --> 01:23:51,720
When you research the company, they hold onto the property for about four and a half years.

1129
01:23:52,500 --> 01:23:57,040
That's not very long. Four and a half years, they sell out of it, they get their investment back,

1130
01:23:57,340 --> 01:24:01,020
and they move on. That's their average holding period when you look at their investment portfolio on their website.

1131
01:24:01,540 --> 01:24:05,960
And then if you look at the complaints that happen from the actual residents of the property,

1132
01:24:06,360 --> 01:24:10,360
which I'm more than happy to show if you'd like to showcase them, but they're in the petition so I won't cover it right now.

1133
01:24:11,020 --> 01:24:17,740
If you look at that, you're going to see that a lot of the residents have said after they have left that the properties have gone to trash.

1134
01:24:18,160 --> 01:24:21,300
They're not maintenance dwell, they're not managed, and that's not what we want in our neighborhood.

1135
01:24:21,400 --> 01:24:24,920
That's not what we want in Carmel. We want a place who's going to invest and who's going to stay,

1136
01:24:25,040 --> 01:24:30,000
which is why people who are going to do that, the commercial buildings, the housing units, those areas are all going to matter.

1137
01:24:30,820 --> 01:24:36,700
So where I'm actually with on this is that we have to make sure that we stand for what was already developed before and what's been approved,

1138
01:24:36,700 --> 01:24:39,040
that we follow through on that and not amend this

1139
01:24:39,040 --> 01:24:41,460
and create more problems that have already been identified

1140
01:24:41,460 --> 01:24:42,460
through all these scenarios.

1141
01:24:43,740 --> 01:24:46,300
I have about 15 other points, but they're all in the petition,

1142
01:24:46,480 --> 01:24:48,020
so I'll go ahead and defer the floor from there.

1143
01:24:48,180 --> 01:24:48,560
Thank you.

1144
01:24:49,520 --> 01:24:50,140
Thank you.

1145
01:24:52,600 --> 01:24:54,080
My name is Michael Stevens.

1146
01:24:54,640 --> 01:24:58,980
I live in Cherry Creek Estates about a mile

1147
01:24:58,980 --> 01:25:02,180
and 1.9 miles, give or take, from where this is proposed.

1148
01:25:03,020 --> 01:25:05,360
We've been living where we live for 17 years

1149
01:25:05,360 --> 01:25:12,760
in this area and have watched that go from a giant field into very dense housing.

1150
01:25:13,460 --> 01:25:21,840
I would say I walked through there yesterday night with my dog through the area and I noticed

1151
01:25:21,840 --> 01:25:23,920
a couple of things that I was really surprised to see.

1152
01:25:24,040 --> 01:25:32,580
First, through that area, especially on 146th Street just north of this, there's a lot

1153
01:25:32,580 --> 01:25:33,020
of trash.

1154
01:25:33,020 --> 01:25:40,600
I don't know how else to say it just garbage piling up in the area is construction debris. It's road trash. It's

1155
01:25:41,020 --> 01:25:46,920
Bottles, it's just trash and I never thought I would see that in my neighborhood, frankly

1156
01:25:48,360 --> 01:25:53,080
Secondly, there's a large. I guess it's apartment area

1157
01:25:53,680 --> 01:25:56,880
just to the I guess that would be the

1158
01:25:57,460 --> 01:26:03,020
the east of this area that's proposed and just walking through there again I was really

1159
01:26:03,020 --> 01:26:07,640
surprised I don't know who manages it I don't know anything about it but I did notice that

1160
01:26:07,640 --> 01:26:13,460
a lot of the facades were really degrading these departments can't possibly be more than

1161
01:26:13,460 --> 01:26:18,740
seven or eight years old and they're really not very well maintained again something

1162
01:26:18,740 --> 01:26:24,760
I did not think I would see in this particular area where we are and I just have to

1163
01:26:24,760 --> 01:26:30,440
say that the speed with which these buildings are going up, my daughter actually lives literally

1164
01:26:30,440 --> 01:26:37,140
across the street from where this is going up and we're watching apartments go up and

1165
01:26:37,140 --> 01:26:41,560
I mean they're not there on Tuesday, they're there on Wednesday, it's really amazing

1166
01:26:42,240 --> 01:26:48,800
that you can build things that quickly but it just can't possibly be good. I don't

1167
01:26:48,800 --> 01:26:52,700
know how to say it, it can't possibly be good. And then the last thing I wanted

1168
01:26:52,700 --> 01:26:59,620
to say is all of the numbers about, I felt almost like scare tactics about five-story

1169
01:26:59,620 --> 01:27:04,880
buildings going up along that area, it's still, I was trying to get a sense, so if you could

1170
01:27:04,880 --> 01:27:10,580
address this when you speak, how are we actually going to see a net increase in the total

1171
01:27:10,580 --> 01:27:14,420
number of human beings that are going to be living in that area, because that was

1172
01:27:14,420 --> 01:27:21,600
unclear. And I mean more people, more trash, more traffic, more noise. That's

1173
01:27:21,600 --> 01:27:23,400
nice. Thank you. Thank you.

1174
01:27:26,570 --> 01:27:31,790
Hello Teresa Stevens. Connected to Mike Stevens. We

1175
01:27:31,790 --> 01:27:36,490
live in Cherry Creek Estates. I think what we're here doing tonight is asking

1176
01:27:36,490 --> 01:27:41,530
for you to preserve our quality of life. Long-time Carmel resident love the

1177
01:27:41,530 --> 01:27:46,530
schools, love this area and what we're seeing is something really outside

1178
01:27:47,010 --> 01:27:49,350
what we ever thought we would see in Carmel.

1179
01:27:50,390 --> 01:27:53,410
I have an air pollution monitor, love the environment.

1180
01:27:53,830 --> 01:27:55,450
I've been looking at it for a year.

1181
01:27:55,830 --> 01:28:00,610
This last Sunday, the worst air pollution in our entire area,

1182
01:28:00,610 --> 01:28:02,670
including Southside and Annapolis,

1183
01:28:02,910 --> 01:28:05,330
was highest at my house.

1184
01:28:05,890 --> 01:28:07,550
I never thought I would see it.

1185
01:28:07,590 --> 01:28:08,890
I have a screenshot if you want to see it.

1186
01:28:09,390 --> 01:28:11,290
So think about putting more people in that area,

1187
01:28:11,370 --> 01:28:11,970
more traffic.

1188
01:28:12,390 --> 01:28:14,090
What's that going to do to our air quality?

1189
01:28:15,030 --> 01:28:20,050
The roads, I don't know if there was a traffic study that's been done that's not 10 years

1190
01:28:20,050 --> 01:28:25,010
old, as I understand it, the traffic study is outdated, but we know from just walking

1191
01:28:25,010 --> 01:28:30,430
on that street, we've heard about an accident, small kids, you know, families are in that

1192
01:28:30,430 --> 01:28:36,150
area and that road is not set up for the volume of traffic that we are seeing.

1193
01:28:36,270 --> 01:28:39,090
So I ask you to think about the safety of the resident schools.

1194
01:28:39,490 --> 01:28:41,430
I've been a school teacher most of my life.

1195
01:28:41,430 --> 01:28:51,150
If we just had 25%, I think, of the scholars come from Carmel, Indiana, I'm so proud of

1196
01:28:51,150 --> 01:28:51,330
that.

1197
01:28:51,450 --> 01:28:56,630
But what are you going to do to our teachers, to our schools if we overpopulate this area?

1198
01:28:56,910 --> 01:28:58,210
We have to draw a fine line.

1199
01:28:58,570 --> 01:28:59,790
I love development.

1200
01:29:00,650 --> 01:29:02,690
But there comes a time when it's just too much.

1201
01:29:02,790 --> 01:29:04,710
So I ask you to think about that as well.

1202
01:29:05,350 --> 01:29:09,770
Think about the air quality, the safety of our schools, the safety of our residents,

1203
01:29:10,650 --> 01:29:17,610
And then the traffic, I don't believe our roadways are set up for this, so thank you for your consideration

1204
01:29:18,390 --> 01:29:20,730
and thank you for giving us time to speak tonight.

1205
01:29:21,430 --> 01:29:22,110
Thank you.

1206
01:29:25,920 --> 01:29:29,300
Hi, I'm Monica Azzampapirano. I live in Meadows.

1207
01:29:29,720 --> 01:29:32,360
I just want to bring up something that I haven't heard anyone say yet.

1208
01:29:33,120 --> 01:29:36,960
I was told that the developers said they wanted to build affordable housing.

1209
01:29:37,520 --> 01:29:42,040
affordable housing to me is a nice way of saying social or subsidized housing,

1210
01:29:42,240 --> 01:29:45,640
which we don't want in Carmel. Next to all these really nice houses,

1211
01:29:45,900 --> 01:29:51,380
people have spent, you know, a lot of money to buy and to bring down our property prices.

1212
01:29:52,260 --> 01:29:57,580
So I don't know if in four or five years when they decide to sell this to someone else,

1213
01:29:57,580 --> 01:29:58,820
if it will be

1214
01:30:00,110 --> 01:30:06,730
More of a social housing for lower-income families. I don't have a problem with that.

1215
01:30:06,790 --> 01:30:11,810
It's just that it will bring everyone's property value down, and that can last for quite a while.

1216
01:30:12,430 --> 01:30:18,470
So that's, I'm not sure what, what the developer is talking about, but I have heard that that's what they want to do.

1217
01:30:19,250 --> 01:30:24,450
Besides everything else that everyone said. Okay. Well, thank you. Great. Thank you for your comments.

1218
01:30:24,450 --> 01:30:33,310
And this commission, this body does not discriminate with respect to economic status or housing

1219
01:30:33,310 --> 01:30:33,790
prices.

1220
01:30:34,030 --> 01:30:38,350
And in fact, the City of Carmel desires housing options at all price points.

1221
01:30:38,810 --> 01:30:42,910
So I want to be clear that as the commission considers this petition, it will be done

1222
01:30:42,910 --> 01:30:43,530
on that basis.

1223
01:30:44,550 --> 01:30:46,690
John, you have five minutes to respond to these comments.

1224
01:30:52,300 --> 01:30:52,980
Thank you.

1225
01:30:53,700 --> 01:30:56,840
I'll group with some of the topics that were brought up.

1226
01:30:56,840 --> 01:30:58,320
First with regard to traffic,

1227
01:30:59,060 --> 01:31:00,880
I can put up the slight layout.

1228
01:31:16,530 --> 01:31:19,110
Proposed development should result in net reduction

1229
01:31:19,110 --> 01:31:22,530
in the traffic because it reduces the amount of the office.

1230
01:31:22,810 --> 01:31:24,490
In regards to the office development

1231
01:31:25,310 --> 01:31:28,070
and the comments about the mixed use and the walkability,

1232
01:31:29,170 --> 01:31:30,950
we're not reducing that potential.

1233
01:31:31,210 --> 01:31:33,430
The primary office area doesn't authorize

1234
01:31:33,770 --> 01:31:36,590
those types of retail and service uses.

1235
01:31:36,590 --> 01:31:39,090
is it's primarily office development

1236
01:31:39,750 --> 01:31:42,770
with the allowance of office above.

1237
01:31:43,310 --> 01:31:47,050
So you see, we have two acres remaining here

1238
01:31:47,050 --> 01:31:49,450
that would be subject to the same requirements

1239
01:31:49,450 --> 01:31:51,530
as the development across the street.

1240
01:31:51,670 --> 01:31:53,210
It's not that it has to lay out identically,

1241
01:31:53,330 --> 01:31:56,110
but those office and service uses that you see

1242
01:31:56,110 --> 01:31:58,050
in the multi-tenant buildings here,

1243
01:31:58,690 --> 01:31:59,830
I know Wendy's was mentioned,

1244
01:31:59,890 --> 01:32:01,390
but it's unlikely that there'd be another

1245
01:32:03,710 --> 01:32:05,410
fast food type of restaurant here,

1246
01:32:05,410 --> 01:32:11,450
but they would be uses that Avoneer would believe are appropriate to cater to the existing

1247
01:32:11,450 --> 01:32:15,390
residents within the community. Those smaller things like coffee shops and other things like

1248
01:32:15,390 --> 01:32:21,370
that are authorized under that space. The office area, which is the balance of that,

1249
01:32:21,550 --> 01:32:27,610
doesn't accommodate retail uses within that development. But from a traffic standpoint,

1250
01:32:28,370 --> 01:32:31,570
something was mentioned. If I can draw on this and you can see it. This is the

1251
01:32:31,570 --> 01:32:38,910
extension I believe of James Dean and the the idea was mentioned that traffic

1252
01:32:38,910 --> 01:32:43,310
would come off 146th Street at there and exit and travel and share Creek

1253
01:32:43,310 --> 01:32:47,990
Boulevard and down to River Road to bypass perhaps the River Road

1254
01:32:47,990 --> 01:32:53,510
intersection. If that potential exists I think that same potential exists

1255
01:32:53,510 --> 01:32:58,830
today by the traffic would turn down Community Drive and access over to

1256
01:32:58,830 --> 01:32:59,590
River Road today.

1257
01:33:01,990 --> 01:33:03,710
Neither of those two options.

1258
01:33:10,710 --> 01:33:11,230
Thank you.

1259
01:33:19,040 --> 01:33:20,920
Again, that option or alternative

1260
01:33:20,920 --> 01:33:28,680
exists today and it's an access point that's anticipated to distribute traffic in an appropriate

1261
01:33:28,680 --> 01:33:34,380
manner through the roadway network within the community itself and has been planned

1262
01:33:34,380 --> 01:33:36,940
regardless of use throughout that space.

1263
01:33:41,930 --> 01:33:44,750
Other comments regarding traffic such as traffic

1264
01:33:44,750 --> 01:33:50,550
safety and an increase in schools. We did receive information from school administration

1265
01:33:50,550 --> 01:33:57,170
today about their capacity. They're under capacity today by over a thousand students

1266
01:33:57,170 --> 01:34:08,460
at the elementary level. They have done a recent impact analysis and projection on their

1267
01:34:08,460 --> 01:34:13,720
elementary schools and they've indicated that in that projection there are 214 students

1268
01:34:13,720 --> 01:34:16,780
shy of where they thought they would be at that level.

1269
01:34:16,920 --> 01:34:24,220
So there are more than 1,000 below what their capacity is, 214 shy of the projected amount

1270
01:34:24,220 --> 01:34:30,380
within their analysis, and in addition to that, they've indicated that the analysis

1271
01:34:30,380 --> 01:34:34,960
identifies that they're going to flatten and then decrease over time in that cohort

1272
01:34:34,960 --> 01:34:37,680
that makes up elementary school education.

1273
01:34:38,440 --> 01:34:42,500
We were asked to reach back out to the schools, and we did receive that information.

1274
01:34:42,500 --> 01:34:45,680
We can provide some more detail at the commission, at the committee level.

1275
01:34:45,760 --> 01:34:49,660
I don't have anything on their letterhead yet and that they could send me,

1276
01:34:49,660 --> 01:34:52,600
we received it as early as, excuse me, as late as today.

1277
01:35:02,350 --> 01:35:06,070
One other comment was made about the addition of 350 dwelling units.

1278
01:35:06,630 --> 01:35:12,290
As I indicated in the presentation today, there are more dwelling units authorized today,

1279
01:35:12,890 --> 01:35:17,630
approximately 315 by right today under the different development scenario

1280
01:35:17,630 --> 01:35:19,810
that would include more intense development.

1281
01:35:19,810 --> 01:35:24,210
So more intense office development with loss on multiple story buildings.

1282
01:35:24,930 --> 01:35:29,570
The reason we provided all that information is because those are the standards under which

1283
01:35:30,430 --> 01:35:31,750
we have to comply today.

1284
01:35:32,470 --> 01:35:37,990
So if you don't know where you are, you can't necessarily base where you're going.

1285
01:35:38,390 --> 01:35:41,330
So we want to identify all those things so the Planning Commission can make an informed

1286
01:35:41,330 --> 01:35:41,790
decision.

1287
01:35:42,590 --> 01:35:47,130
This development would cause the addition of approximately 35 additional authorized dwellings

1288
01:35:47,130 --> 01:35:53,370
above and beyond what's already permitted today and would eliminate the potential for

1289
01:35:53,370 --> 01:35:56,790
the loss as identified in the staff report.

1290
01:35:59,750 --> 01:36:01,970
There was one other, if I can just have a

1291
01:36:01,970 --> 01:36:06,470
couple minutes. There was a comment made by a, that there was a petition that was circulated

1292
01:36:06,470 --> 01:36:10,130
if we could be provided a copy of the petition and what information people were provided

1293
01:36:10,130 --> 01:36:15,830
to sign the petition. We have not seen that. And I don't know, I'll allow staff

1294
01:36:15,830 --> 01:36:20,950
to respond. I don't know if they've received a copy of a petition. There was information

1295
01:36:20,950 --> 01:36:26,690
about an outdated traffic study that may be over 10 years old. I'm unaware of that study.

1296
01:36:26,790 --> 01:36:32,590
We haven't provided that to staff and we haven't referenced it in our submittal. So if the

1297
01:36:32,590 --> 01:36:37,270
individual who referenced that could provide us a copy of the referred to traffic study,

1298
01:36:38,330 --> 01:36:40,610
noted schools, and that was it.

1299
01:36:43,050 --> 01:36:46,350
Thank you. We will move forward to the department report.

1300
01:36:46,350 --> 01:36:54,070
Thank you for the record, Alexia Lopez with the Department of Community Services.

1301
01:36:55,650 --> 01:37:01,290
The petitioner proposes to amend the legacy PUD ordinance to remove the office use block

1302
01:37:01,290 --> 01:37:06,350
and allow more residential units including apartments and for rent attached dwellings.

1303
01:37:07,070 --> 01:37:11,190
The property affected by the ordinance amendment is currently within the village core,

1304
01:37:11,690 --> 01:37:15,850
the primary office, and the urban residential use blocks of the legacy PUD.

1305
01:37:16,770 --> 01:37:21,010
Apartments are permitted in the Village Corps and the Urban Residential Use Blocks.

1306
01:37:23,710 --> 01:37:29,450
They're asking to increase the total number of units as originally planned for with the Legacy PUD.

1307
01:37:30,630 --> 01:37:34,150
We have received about 22 letters and remonstrance to this project.

1308
01:37:34,890 --> 01:37:42,950
You heard a lot of those concerns this evening that were brought up regarding traffic crying from rental properties and overburdening the schools.

1309
01:37:43,930 --> 01:37:48,110
staff does not believe this project will have a negative impact on the community as a whole.

1310
01:37:48,630 --> 01:37:51,910
What is proposed tonight is a neighborhood for people to live in.

1311
01:37:52,530 --> 01:37:54,590
It may not be the same form as other neighborhoods.

1312
01:37:55,070 --> 01:37:57,410
It's not a single family for sale development,

1313
01:37:57,870 --> 01:38:02,390
but that does not mean the people who live here will be any lesser or will bring crime

1314
01:38:02,390 --> 01:38:05,890
or will damage the community as referred to in their monstrance letters.

1315
01:38:06,990 --> 01:38:10,250
Staff reached out to Carmel Clay Schools as well about this project,

1316
01:38:10,250 --> 01:38:14,650
project, and they have no concerns with accommodating the increase in the enrollment.

1317
01:38:15,470 --> 01:38:19,870
In fact, they have stated that multifamily results in few school-age children.

1318
01:38:21,890 --> 01:38:26,610
A city needs a variety of housing options to support it, and this use along a major

1319
01:38:26,610 --> 01:38:31,850
thoroughfare in an area zoned for urban residential and village core with walkable commercial

1320
01:38:31,850 --> 01:38:33,810
nearby is an appropriate location.

1321
01:38:34,510 --> 01:38:40,190
This project has good pedestrian, bicycle, and vehicular connectivity, and Amenity Center

1322
01:38:40,190 --> 01:38:43,310
will be provided to serve the future residents of this neighborhood.

1323
01:38:44,290 --> 01:38:49,030
The development will allow for more density near the core of the legacy and the retail

1324
01:38:49,030 --> 01:38:51,890
areas that are already there to help support these commercial areas.

1325
01:38:52,930 --> 01:38:56,230
The project will allow for additional variety and housing options.

1326
01:38:57,670 --> 01:39:01,810
The designs of the buildings will be in substantial compliance to the character imagery that

1327
01:39:01,810 --> 01:39:03,190
that was included in the PUD amendment.

1328
01:39:04,010 --> 01:39:07,670
So what we've seen in that amendment is the style

1329
01:39:07,670 --> 01:39:09,550
that we would expect to see when they come through

1330
01:39:09,550 --> 01:39:10,990
for their development plan in ADLS.

1331
01:39:12,530 --> 01:39:14,890
That style is similar to the Craftsman style

1332
01:39:14,890 --> 01:39:17,490
with front porches, smaller front setbacks

1333
01:39:17,490 --> 01:39:19,590
and sidewalk connections to the street.

1334
01:39:20,850 --> 01:39:22,890
The project provides appropriate transitions

1335
01:39:22,890 --> 01:39:24,890
by putting the larger apartment buildings

1336
01:39:24,890 --> 01:39:26,510
along the main road and legacy

1337
01:39:26,930 --> 01:39:28,530
across from the existing apartments

1338
01:39:29,110 --> 01:39:30,790
and then transitioning to the smaller

1339
01:39:30,790 --> 01:39:38,070
one and two-story buildings toward the west. The department continues to work with Petitioner

1340
01:39:38,070 --> 01:39:42,890
on all the review comments as this project moves on to the committee review. And we would

1341
01:39:42,890 --> 01:39:46,710
recommend that the Planning Commission sends this item to the Residential Committee meeting

1342
01:39:47,130 --> 01:39:49,430
on Thursday, October 6th. Thank you.

1343
01:39:51,420 --> 01:39:57,240
Thank you. That closes the public hearing. It's 741. Discussion from the Commission.

1344
01:40:00,660 --> 01:40:00,860
Sue?

1345
01:40:04,040 --> 01:40:09,800
Just this old I guess this is not going to come if assuming this was approved and

1346
01:40:09,800 --> 01:40:14,940
no basis for that statement at all right now this will not come back for ADLS at

1347
01:40:14,940 --> 01:40:21,000
all so this will just be a revision to the PUD correct I believe it will come

1348
01:40:21,000 --> 01:40:25,120
back for ADL development plan and ADLS it will okay and I just wanted to be

1349
01:40:25,120 --> 01:40:29,680
sure because we haven't really talked about really drilled down on the

1350
01:40:29,680 --> 01:40:35,000
details. You showed an example of Old Monrovia, and where is that? Is that around here?

1351
01:40:39,860 --> 01:40:43,200
Huntsville, Alabama is where that development is located.

1352
01:40:43,840 --> 01:40:44,260
I'm sorry?

1353
01:40:44,480 --> 01:40:45,360
Huntsville, Alabama.

1354
01:40:46,040 --> 01:40:52,460
Oh, it's okay. Well, we won't be seeing it then. And when I say ADLS, I mean Architectural

1355
01:40:52,460 --> 01:40:55,560
Design, Lighting, and Science.

1356
01:40:56,020 --> 01:40:56,500
Landscaping and Science.

1357
01:40:57,600 --> 01:40:57,960
You got it.

1358
01:40:58,020 --> 01:41:01,360
We've been saying it for so long that I apologize because not everybody knows

1359
01:41:01,360 --> 01:41:02,300
is that acronym.

1360
01:41:05,970 --> 01:41:10,330
This may sound petty, but I'd like to see you give an example and committee

1361
01:41:10,330 --> 01:41:16,830
on the pool and this clubhouse and find a place in Carmel that you can compare it to

1362
01:41:16,830 --> 01:41:20,590
in size because I've heard too many times we put some developments in and that's a

1363
01:41:20,590 --> 01:41:26,510
postage stamp not really designed or built for the size of the community you're trying

1364
01:41:26,510 --> 01:41:28,670
to support. So if you would do that.

1365
01:41:31,770 --> 01:41:34,210
I think it might be time to look at the traffic

1366
01:41:34,210 --> 01:41:39,430
again. And I don't know in a traffic study if you can also include what's being built across the street,

1367
01:41:39,730 --> 01:41:45,230
which is not part of Carmel or how that goes. But since this went through, and I was on the Planning

1368
01:41:45,870 --> 01:41:52,590
Commission when it went through, I can't remember. Many, many years. Were you on? Many. It was,

1369
01:41:52,750 --> 01:41:59,690
PUDs were relatively new. And, you know, we wanted, and this seemed like the best that we could get

1370
01:41:59,690 --> 01:42:05,630
because it was such a mixed use and it did have commercial and office and couple types

1371
01:42:05,630 --> 01:42:06,150
of housing.

1372
01:42:06,330 --> 01:42:12,270
And it just seemed like we really hit and I'm kind of sorry to see this come in because

1373
01:42:12,270 --> 01:42:17,550
I thought we worked so hard on it and I understand there's changes in commercial and office buildings

1374
01:42:17,550 --> 01:42:21,970
today and there may not be as much of a demand for it as there was back then.

1375
01:42:22,490 --> 01:42:27,890
But I think we need to be very cognizant of the people that have moved in over the

1376
01:42:27,890 --> 01:42:33,150
years and what they were anticipating in that neighborhood and what would be their neighbors.

1377
01:42:34,610 --> 01:42:40,970
What is far by that? I mean the type of facilities, the green space and everything that was committed

1378
01:42:40,970 --> 01:42:41,930
to in the PUD.

1379
01:42:44,850 --> 01:42:48,430
Because, you know, it was designed as a multi-use commercial walkability

1380
01:42:48,430 --> 01:42:48,850
place.

1381
01:42:53,460 --> 01:42:56,840
I guess that's all. I'll let everybody else take a chance at this. Thank you.

1382
01:42:56,840 --> 01:43:01,720
And one thing I can't say, Ms. Westmeyer, that the modifications that we're proposing

1383
01:43:01,720 --> 01:43:06,320
to the ordinance in no way impact the level of open space that would be provided throughout

1384
01:43:06,320 --> 01:43:06,860
the development.

1385
01:43:07,160 --> 01:43:15,300
So there's as much open space under this proposal as, in fact, more green area under

1386
01:43:15,300 --> 01:43:18,700
this proposal than there would be if developed under the scenarios that I described earlier.

1387
01:43:24,680 --> 01:43:26,200
I have a question for staff.

1388
01:43:26,460 --> 01:43:28,040
We've had a lot of numbers tonight.

1389
01:43:28,040 --> 01:43:35,360
And I just for clarification, how many more units does this bring than we originally had?

1390
01:43:39,740 --> 01:43:41,280
Let me pull up the Department report.

1391
01:43:43,380 --> 01:43:46,820
This is bringing an additional 350.

1392
01:43:47,460 --> 01:43:47,720
35.

1393
01:43:49,400 --> 01:43:50,780
I'm sorry, 350 total.

1394
01:43:52,340 --> 01:43:56,440
As proposed, this includes 350 dwellings.

1395
01:43:56,600 --> 01:43:56,860
Okay.

1396
01:43:56,860 --> 01:44:03,040
But as per what was it's been already authorized under the existing PUD there would be as many as 35 additional

1397
01:44:03,580 --> 01:44:08,580
Dwelling units and and that's not considering if the site were developed with a CCRC

1398
01:44:09,100 --> 01:44:15,460
Which would raise that number by potentially additional 225 dwellings, which is authorized under the existing ordinance. So

1399
01:44:16,060 --> 01:44:23,380
Depending on how you look at it. It says it says many as there are a few as 35 additional or

1400
01:44:23,380 --> 01:44:28,140
or some number reduced by that 225 authorized CCRC

1401
01:44:28,960 --> 01:44:30,860
or senior housing development units.

1402
01:44:32,100 --> 01:44:36,840
In a project like this, who maintains the exterior?

1403
01:44:37,540 --> 01:44:39,940
I mean, it would be identical to the format

1404
01:44:39,940 --> 01:44:42,120
under which JC Hart maintains their facilities.

1405
01:44:42,320 --> 01:44:43,120
It would be by the owner.

1406
01:44:43,740 --> 01:44:45,620
The owner maintains and manages

1407
01:44:45,620 --> 01:44:47,640
all the green space that's on site.

1408
01:44:48,140 --> 01:44:49,720
They maintain all the parking areas.

1409
01:44:49,720 --> 01:44:56,000
as they maintain all of the building exteriors, both in the three-story buildings along Community

1410
01:44:56,000 --> 01:44:58,500
Drive as well as all the other dwellings within the development.

1411
01:44:58,940 --> 01:44:59,980
So we're talking about.

1412
01:45:01,100 --> 01:45:03,820
Outciting windows, landscaping.

1413
01:45:03,920 --> 01:45:08,680
100%, anything vertical as well as the parking fields which are horizontal and the landscaping

1414
01:45:08,680 --> 01:45:13,580
is all maintained by the owner. And the provisions of the ordinance which apply in this situation

1415
01:45:13,580 --> 01:45:18,980
that don't necessarily apply to a single family is under the DPA, the less provisions in your

1416
01:45:18,980 --> 01:45:22,680
ordinance, we would come back to you, we would say here is the landscaping plan that

1417
01:45:22,680 --> 01:45:27,400
is proposed. Staff has the authority to do inspections which I know the urban forester

1418
01:45:27,400 --> 01:45:32,720
does on a regular basis, and if they see a situation where there's a dead or un-maintained

1419
01:45:32,720 --> 01:45:38,480
plant material, staff has the authority to require us to require the owner to replace

1420
01:45:38,480 --> 01:45:44,700
that under a timeframe prescribed by the urban forester. That doesn't typically apply to

1421
01:45:44,700 --> 01:45:48,660
residential development in general, but it does apply in situations where you, the

1422
01:45:48,660 --> 01:45:52,060
Planning Commission, has DPA to less authority over development.

1423
01:45:52,060 --> 01:45:57,500
So the tenant is only required to maintain the interior of the property.

1424
01:45:58,660 --> 01:46:03,660
When you say maintain, I mean they don't paint, they don't do that.

1425
01:46:04,040 --> 01:46:09,640
The owner paints the interior, the owner of the development maintains all the utilities.

1426
01:46:09,980 --> 01:46:15,820
They maintain all the infrastructure, the washer, dryer, ovens, microwave.

1427
01:46:16,620 --> 01:46:21,100
But they're not responsible for anything that shows to the public on the exterior.

1428
01:46:21,100 --> 01:46:28,300
the the tenant the tenant correct okay you know I think this is a project that

1429
01:46:28,300 --> 01:46:35,140
is needed in our area I just don't think this is the spot for it I think that

1430
01:46:35,140 --> 01:46:42,920
legacy that development is so dense as it stands and I really believe that

1431
01:46:42,920 --> 01:46:48,560
commercial more retail commercial development is needed it's they just on

1432
01:46:48,560 --> 01:46:53,660
On the east side of Carmel, once you pass, I mean, you're going to Noblesville once you

1433
01:46:53,660 --> 01:46:58,840
get east, we really don't have anything in Carmel on the east side.

1434
01:47:00,080 --> 01:47:07,180
I just, I already think that we've got, and I understand what's in the PUD and I understand

1435
01:47:07,180 --> 01:47:16,160
the permitted uses and we can have apartments, but this seems like we need to look at traffic.

1436
01:47:16,160 --> 01:47:23,360
I mean, I just that and especially if we have development of a dense development going in across the street

1437
01:47:23,360 --> 01:47:29,780
I think this is a recipe for disaster. I do like the project though. I just I'm not crazy about putting it there

1438
01:47:37,260 --> 01:47:39,120
John is there a master

1439
01:47:40,440 --> 01:47:42,100
HOA that that

1440
01:47:42,100 --> 01:47:46,960
encompasses the entirety of legacy today or is this a

1441
01:47:46,960 --> 01:47:53,920
It's a piece of the wrong word, but is it project by project, subdivision by subdivision,

1442
01:47:54,000 --> 01:47:56,840
each has its own owner's association and maintenance?

1443
01:47:57,060 --> 01:48:01,660
I'll stand corrected, but there are multiple HOAs, as I described.

1444
01:48:02,020 --> 01:48:06,620
There's the Overlook area, the Meadows area, the Grove area, and the Ridge area.

1445
01:48:07,140 --> 01:48:10,860
All have their separate associations and they have different responsibilities internally

1446
01:48:10,860 --> 01:48:15,460
to that pod, but they also participate in a master association.

1447
01:48:15,460 --> 01:48:19,140
The master association has very much less to maintain,

1448
01:48:20,160 --> 01:48:26,080
but also maintains that amenity facility that's located right here within the overall.

1449
01:48:26,880 --> 01:48:34,440
Individual, we'll call them states, and then a nation that contributes to the overall amenity area.

1450
01:48:35,020 --> 01:48:41,140
I think there may be a couple other spots where the master or the nation takes care of a couple of signs

1451
01:48:41,140 --> 01:48:46,060
at different locations within the community but I can get you an exhaustive list if you'd

1452
01:48:46,060 --> 01:48:50,940
like to see one of what they maintain by state and by nation if you will.

1453
01:48:51,680 --> 01:49:00,040
So what would be the obligation of this project to participate in or support financially the

1454
01:49:00,640 --> 01:49:01,120
nation?

1455
01:49:03,100 --> 01:49:07,680
I'm going to have to get additional information from the owner to fully understand that

1456
01:49:07,680 --> 01:49:08,720
and I can get it to the committee.

1457
01:49:08,720 --> 01:49:15,960
I don't have it off the top of my head. I apologize and is it that that umbrella group that nation group to continue your analogy that

1458
01:49:16,480 --> 01:49:22,820
Maintains to the extent there's maintenance of the the natural preserve area west of here. Excuse me east of here

1459
01:49:23,980 --> 01:49:28,940
So there's the wetlands and there's the woods that are on the west side of community drive

1460
01:49:30,320 --> 01:49:33,800
Which I believe may still be under the ownership of the

1461
01:49:34,660 --> 01:49:37,020
Master developer or their air

1462
01:49:37,700 --> 01:49:49,480
The area that is all the prairie area that exists here, I'll outline it, up to and including

1463
01:49:49,480 --> 01:49:51,160
the adjacent to Community Drive.

1464
01:49:51,880 --> 01:49:58,600
That is space that's today owned by the Carmel Clay Parks Department or the Board.

1465
01:49:59,140 --> 01:50:00,480
It's the Carmel Clay Parks.

1466
01:50:00,480 --> 01:50:01,560
And

1467
01:50:04,600 --> 01:50:09,940
then lastly, community drive is already a public street maintained by the city of Carmel.

1468
01:50:10,620 --> 01:50:21,400
Yes, all the streets within the legacy are public with the exception of the area that's intermittent here that is within the multifamily.

1469
01:50:22,240 --> 01:50:27,940
The extension of Hopewell Parkway, James Dean and Larson will be public.

1470
01:50:27,940 --> 01:50:33,440
other internal drives to our community would be privately owned and

1471
01:50:33,440 --> 01:50:33,780
maintained.

1472
01:50:36,490 --> 01:50:43,810
Thank you. Mr. President. Josh. Just a clarification. I think the

1473
01:50:43,810 --> 01:50:48,970
Parks Foundation technically owns the park system, the park there, but it is

1474
01:50:48,970 --> 01:50:52,570
going to be transferred to Carmel Clay Parks and it's in community master

1475
01:50:52,570 --> 01:50:58,670
planning right now, so that would be the Thomas Marcelli Nature Preservation

1476
01:50:59,230 --> 01:51:07,190
area. It includes the home of a couple of wellheads as well. So anyway, public input,

1477
01:51:07,350 --> 01:51:10,850
master planning, Carmel Clay Parks.org, look her up.

1478
01:51:14,010 --> 01:51:18,410
Mr. Dr. Shewitz, I think it's interesting

1479
01:51:19,150 --> 01:51:24,130
when we have community members who come to us and say we want what was originally presented

1480
01:51:24,130 --> 01:51:27,030
to us, even if it would have been more dense.

1481
01:51:28,510 --> 01:51:33,890
I hear the community in this room, quite frankly, kind of talking a little bit out of both sides

1482
01:51:33,890 --> 01:51:41,730
of their mouth on the subject, but let's stick with the notion of what was originally supposed

1483
01:51:41,730 --> 01:51:44,770
to be there should probably go there.

1484
01:51:45,670 --> 01:51:50,830
I think, especially if I was somebody who moved from New York and they were expecting

1485
01:51:50,830 --> 01:51:56,730
in Carmel to be the walkable, lovable place that we always touted it to be and instead

1486
01:51:58,710 --> 01:52:03,490
we got not the highest and best use of the land.

1487
01:52:07,800 --> 01:52:08,340
That's all I got.

1488
01:52:13,670 --> 01:52:23,810
One last question from me and it's for staff. In the comments, staff raises the issue

1489
01:52:23,810 --> 01:52:32,770
of whether the number count should be applied to apartments versus attached dwellings with

1490
01:52:32,770 --> 01:52:37,150
the rationale that these are all for rent units, therefore they should be classified as apartments.

1491
01:52:38,110 --> 01:52:41,790
Can you explain the thinking behind that a little bit for me?

1492
01:52:41,950 --> 01:52:51,430
Because when the PUD was enacted, the concept or the product of a rental detached home,

1493
01:52:51,430 --> 01:52:59,030
a community of detached rental homes at least wasn't in my mindset when the

1494
01:52:59,030 --> 01:53:05,870
PUD came through this body. So can you explain the distinction there and why

1495
01:53:05,870 --> 01:53:12,190
that change is important? Sure. So what we're working with is the existing PUD

1496
01:53:12,190 --> 01:53:17,630
and definitions that were already set up in that PUD. And so based on that

1497
01:53:17,630 --> 01:53:22,930
definition of attached dwelling in the PUD. It's dwellings which are attached vertically

1498
01:53:22,930 --> 01:53:29,170
or horizontally including townhomes, flats, duplex, triplex, quadruplex, and then it goes

1499
01:53:29,170 --> 01:53:34,490
on to say maybe sold as condominiums or individually deeded lots. Apartments shall not be within

1500
01:53:34,490 --> 01:53:39,770
the definition of attached dwellings and as such all references in the legacy ordinance

1501
01:53:39,770 --> 01:53:44,930
to attach dwellings shall exclude apartments. So my interpretation of that is if it's,

1502
01:53:44,930 --> 01:53:52,190
Those are meant for single family attached for sale products for an attached welling. So if these are all going to be for rent

1503
01:53:52,190 --> 01:53:54,830
I just want to make sure it's written correctly so that they're not

1504
01:53:54,830 --> 01:53:59,550
Excluding those from being for rent because there are a lot of units that are attached either

1505
01:54:01,090 --> 01:54:01,910
You know

1506
01:54:02,750 --> 01:54:04,850
two units attached together and so

1507
01:54:05,730 --> 01:54:08,610
That would be classified as an apartment if it's the for rent

1508
01:54:08,610 --> 01:54:13,690
Okay, I guess I'll need to go back and look at the language of the PUD because the yeah

1509
01:54:13,690 --> 01:54:18,190
It's sort of a, if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, is it really a duck?

1510
01:54:18,330 --> 01:54:22,690
And we're, we're weighting that determination based on whether it's for sale or for rent.

1511
01:54:23,130 --> 01:54:24,450
But in this case, it's detached.

1512
01:54:24,730 --> 01:54:30,250
You drive down the street in this community and you'll see what appears to be a single

1513
01:54:30,250 --> 01:54:32,870
family or sale product.

1514
01:54:34,110 --> 01:54:40,510
So I'll, I think for my own, my own homework, I need to look at that further and be sure

1515
01:54:40,510 --> 01:54:44,790
that we're treating it in a way that gives the best possible outcome.

1516
01:54:45,310 --> 01:54:45,450
Right.

1517
01:54:46,190 --> 01:54:49,670
And the apartment is also defined in there and it just says a dwelling intended primarily

1518
01:54:49,670 --> 01:54:50,270
for rental.

1519
01:54:50,630 --> 01:54:50,730
Yeah.

1520
01:54:51,950 --> 01:54:57,730
So I don't think we're opposed to the layout or the design or the use of whether it's

1521
01:54:57,730 --> 01:55:01,930
attached or detached or the apartment building just making sure we're classifying it the

1522
01:55:01,930 --> 01:55:05,010
correct way to, so it's approved for the future.

1523
01:55:10,360 --> 01:55:14,140
I forgot to, I had one more comment, the James Steen cut through.

1524
01:55:14,140 --> 01:55:19,800
I think absolutely that's going to be used by people to bypass that corner.

1525
01:55:20,400 --> 01:55:27,800
That area is highly dense in the morning and in the evening with traffic.

1526
01:55:28,580 --> 01:55:33,380
People are going to find the path of least resistance and that's going to be it.

1527
01:55:33,640 --> 01:55:36,780
So anybody who thinks that people aren't going to take that as a cut through,

1528
01:55:37,140 --> 01:55:42,840
it's different when they cut through on community drive because they're not going through a neighborhood.

1529
01:55:42,840 --> 01:55:50,760
You know that there aren't houses James Dean is compact with houses. I think that's um, I

1530
01:55:50,760 --> 01:55:53,480
Think that's dangerous for those neighbors that live on that street.

1531
01:55:59,370 --> 01:56:01,210
I think that's an interesting issue

1532
01:56:01,210 --> 01:56:08,090
John if you could research since you've you've stated that James Dean will be a city dedicated public city

1533
01:56:08,090 --> 01:56:15,930
Controlled street right regardless of the development scenario James Dean would be a street that would be constructed as any part of

1534
01:56:15,930 --> 01:56:18,690
any plan that would come in front of the planning commission.

1535
01:56:18,990 --> 01:56:23,830
So the question would be then, with being a public or dedicated city street,

1536
01:56:24,950 --> 01:56:30,590
what can the city do in terms of stop signs and speed limits

1537
01:56:30,590 --> 01:56:34,390
to make it not the path of least resistance?

1538
01:56:34,530 --> 01:56:35,230
Because I agree with Kerry.

1539
01:56:35,690 --> 01:56:37,950
And another thing that we did based on staff's recommendation,

1540
01:56:38,550 --> 01:56:40,570
the site plan that you have in front of you this evening,

1541
01:56:41,270 --> 01:56:46,810
this plan staff requested that we realign that street and remove any

1542
01:56:46,810 --> 01:56:51,070
driveways from it so we don't have driveways backing out and onto that

1543
01:56:51,070 --> 01:56:58,110
street it's free from any individual driveways likewise the Hopewell Parkway

1544
01:56:58,110 --> 01:57:01,930
there were the the prior plan that was originally submitted had driveways

1545
01:57:01,930 --> 01:57:07,130
accessing that street and that was modified to correct that so the

1546
01:57:07,130 --> 01:57:10,210
But Folkwell Parkway and James Dean don't have

1547
01:57:12,030 --> 01:57:13,330
driveways accessing them.

1548
01:57:13,430 --> 01:57:17,670
They have effectively street intersections across that plan.

1549
01:57:19,010 --> 01:57:22,970
And we've got, I mean, all streets,

1550
01:57:23,150 --> 01:57:24,210
whether they're public or private,

1551
01:57:24,310 --> 01:57:27,530
would have sidewalks on both sides of those streets

1552
01:57:28,870 --> 01:57:31,070
as required under the ordinance.

1553
01:57:35,290 --> 01:57:41,470
Alex, this is a PUD amendment, correct?

1554
01:57:42,170 --> 01:57:48,250
And if this gets a positive recommendation from the Plan Commission then, or maybe a

1555
01:57:48,250 --> 01:57:52,010
negative recommendation, then it goes to the city council, correct?

1556
01:57:52,810 --> 01:57:56,710
And the city council is the body that makes this final, correct?

1557
01:57:57,710 --> 01:57:58,110
Correct.

1558
01:58:02,760 --> 01:58:03,340
President Grayville.

1559
01:58:04,000 --> 01:58:07,180
I would, similarly to what you alluded to a moment ago, I was going to suggest

1560
01:58:07,180 --> 01:58:12,060
if this road was planned already, perhaps there's things you can explore with the engineering

1561
01:58:12,060 --> 01:58:16,860
department or others to inhibit cut-through traffic, and if not, how can we, you know,

1562
01:58:16,940 --> 01:58:21,080
rein it in, bring it under control with speed control devices?

1563
01:58:22,480 --> 01:58:29,340
I guess I think I even heard Sue talk about it a while back. If this proposal is less

1564
01:58:29,340 --> 01:58:33,920
intense than what could be there, and there isn't a traffic study, or there isn't

1565
01:58:33,920 --> 01:58:37,880
one that is from 10 years ago or even 2018,

1566
01:58:38,100 --> 01:58:39,720
perhaps there's a summary or a discussion

1567
01:58:39,720 --> 01:58:42,580
you could bring us on what it means to traffic,

1568
01:58:43,060 --> 01:58:46,000
maybe from a high level or even get down the weeds

1569
01:58:46,000 --> 01:58:49,200
that might help settle some folks here.

1570
01:58:49,840 --> 01:58:52,180
I guess similar to some of the elements

1571
01:58:52,180 --> 01:58:53,100
that have already been talked about

1572
01:58:53,100 --> 01:58:55,620
and then we got some feedback from the audience

1573
01:58:55,620 --> 01:59:00,120
this evening, unlike some other projects

1574
01:59:00,120 --> 01:59:02,000
where we hear petitioners,

1575
01:59:02,000 --> 01:59:07,880
it's transitioning from an empty farm field to something significant, we've already got

1576
01:59:07,880 --> 01:59:08,660
a plan in place.

1577
01:59:08,960 --> 01:59:15,240
And so I guess if you can just either speak to tonight or a committee on why are there

1578
01:59:15,240 --> 01:59:18,460
market factors that are driving this, why is the change needed?

1579
01:59:18,900 --> 01:59:21,200
Why is this better for you all as petitioners?

1580
01:59:21,280 --> 01:59:26,900
Why is it better for the city if there's data or even anecdotal thoughts you can bring

1581
01:59:26,900 --> 01:59:31,020
to kind of further the thought on why should this body be interested in this?

1582
01:59:31,020 --> 01:59:37,600
I wasn't around in 2018 with the PUD as in place, but I have no doubt that folks worked hard on what's there.

1583
01:59:38,700 --> 01:59:42,820
So why should we change this other than this is something different?

1584
01:59:45,720 --> 01:59:47,300
We'll be prepared to outline that.

1585
01:59:47,940 --> 01:59:55,700
And specifically regarding traffic, the petitioner has prepared trip generation analysis between the different scenarios.

1586
01:59:56,760 --> 01:59:59,860
I'll get in touch with engineering, find out for them what type of scope.

1587
02:00:00,370 --> 02:00:05,530
In terms of any additional review they would want to do and we can present that to the committee as well.

1588
02:00:09,080 --> 02:00:09,800
Is there a motion?

1589
02:00:10,700 --> 02:00:17,200
President Grayville, I'd make a motion that we send this to the residential committee with the votes coming back to this full commission.

1590
02:00:20,840 --> 02:00:24,460
Your second, Debbie. Thank you, Mr. Hill and Ms. Buckler for the motion.

1591
02:00:24,620 --> 02:00:26,660
In second, all in favor of the motion say aye.

1592
02:00:26,840 --> 02:00:27,260
Aye.

1593
02:00:27,860 --> 02:00:28,240
Any opposed?

1594
02:00:30,550 --> 02:00:31,150
Seeing none.

1595
02:00:31,510 --> 02:00:36,630
One final item. We were asked to and we agreed to have a second neighborhood meeting.

1596
02:00:36,630 --> 02:00:41,710
We had a neighborhood meeting last week for residents that received notice of tonight's

1597
02:00:41,710 --> 02:00:46,490
public hearing and that's going to either be on October 19th or 20th and we'll send

1598
02:00:46,490 --> 02:00:50,570
out an additional mail notice with regard to that and we're going to notice all residents

1599
02:00:50,570 --> 02:00:53,310
within the legacy of that second neighborhood meeting.

1600
02:00:54,230 --> 02:00:59,750
So either the 19th or 20th of October, a second neighborhood meeting, all residents

1601
02:00:59,750 --> 02:01:05,610
within the legacy would get notice of that so we can continue to review what

1602
02:01:05,610 --> 02:01:09,930
you know, what those expectations were at the time versus what's proposed today.

1603
02:01:10,210 --> 02:01:14,370
I don't hear you asking for it, but I want to be sure that I'm not hearing it.

1604
02:01:14,870 --> 02:01:21,530
Is there a defer the start of the committee's work until after those community meetings

1605
02:01:21,530 --> 02:01:27,470
have been held, or is it your client's preference to move forward with the October

1606
02:01:27,470 --> 02:01:28,390
6th committee meeting?

1607
02:01:28,570 --> 02:01:31,510
We would prefer to move forward with the October 6th committee meeting, understanding

1608
02:01:31,510 --> 02:01:36,830
that it's our expectation that that's not going to be the only, the one and only committee

1609
02:01:36,830 --> 02:01:40,490
meeting with regard to the request that's anticipated that there would be two or three.

1610
02:01:40,650 --> 02:01:40,670
Right.

1611
02:01:41,430 --> 02:01:41,650
Okay.

1612
02:01:42,110 --> 02:01:42,450
Very good.

1613
02:01:42,950 --> 02:01:43,130
Okay.

1614
02:01:43,830 --> 02:01:49,130
And just to confirm that motion was passed, so this goes to the residential committee,

1615
02:01:49,470 --> 02:01:53,450
currently scheduled to next meet on Thursday, October 6th.

1616
02:01:53,750 --> 02:01:54,850
So thank you.

1617
02:01:57,340 --> 02:02:01,500
We're going to move forward to our next public hearing, which is the Hilton Tempo

1618
02:02:01,500 --> 02:02:04,680
Hotel at Clay Terrace, so if those of you who are not sticking around would clear the

1619
02:02:04,680 --> 02:02:07,480
room quickly and quietly, we would be grateful.

1620
02:02:28,350 --> 02:02:28,710
Good.

1621
02:02:29,090 --> 02:02:29,250
Yeah.

1622
02:02:30,130 --> 02:02:31,490
As long as we don't lose a quorum.

1623
02:02:50,160 --> 02:02:50,660
All right.

1624
02:02:50,880 --> 02:02:58,840
Our third public hearing this evening is Docket PZ-2022-00149, DP-80LS, Clay Terrace,

1625
02:02:58,900 --> 02:02:59,880
Hilton Tempo Hotel.

1626
02:03:00,660 --> 02:03:04,340
The applicant seeks site plan and design approval for a new hotel on one acre,

1627
02:03:04,340 --> 02:03:10,480
which will be five stories tall or 70 feet with 150 rooms and a rooftop restaurant.

1628
02:03:11,280 --> 02:03:15,920
The site is located at 14311 Clay Terrace Boulevard in Clay Terrace.

1629
02:03:16,440 --> 02:03:21,240
The site is owned under PUDZ-662-20.

1630
02:03:21,760 --> 02:03:26,240
The petition has been filed by Mark Leach of Fagery Drinker on behalf of Lisa Callahan

1631
02:03:26,240 --> 02:03:31,320
of Washington Prime Group and Christopher White of Equicor Hotel Group LLC.

1632
02:03:31,860 --> 02:03:37,080
And I saw Steve Hardin. There he is. So Steve will be speaking for Mark this evening.

1633
02:03:40,850 --> 02:03:44,450
Good evening, Mr. President, members of the Plaint Commission. For the record, my name is Steve Hardin.

1634
02:03:44,490 --> 02:03:49,770
I'm a partner in the law from a fakery drinker with offices located here in Carmel at 600 East 96th Street.

1635
02:03:50,230 --> 02:03:55,150
Pleased to be here with Lisa Callahan from Clay Terrace Partners. She's back here in the back.

1636
02:03:55,270 --> 02:04:00,570
You may remember her from 2020 when we were here working on the redevelopment for Clay Terrace.

1637
02:04:00,570 --> 02:04:03,430
and then Chris White from Echo Corps Hotel Group is here as well.

1638
02:04:04,050 --> 02:04:08,870
The team architect, David Roush, is here for the architectural questions, and Alan Fetajic

1639
02:04:08,870 --> 02:04:12,370
from Kimley Horn is also here, and then our land planner, Mark Leach, as well, has been

1640
02:04:12,370 --> 02:04:13,110
working on the project.

1641
02:04:13,450 --> 02:04:17,210
First off, the team is very thankful to be working with Rachel and the city's team.

1642
02:04:17,810 --> 02:04:21,670
Hopefully the package you've seen is pretty well-defined, and there's been a lot of

1643
02:04:21,670 --> 02:04:26,250
good back-and-forth and feedback on the project, and I will go over it with you.

1644
02:04:26,250 --> 02:04:32,230
So if you're familiar with Clay Terrace, this is showing you where we are in Yellow Highlight.

1645
02:04:32,370 --> 02:04:38,150
It is the location of the one-acre, approximately one-acre site for the new hotel Tempo by Hilton.

1646
02:04:38,470 --> 02:04:42,190
And that's where the location is right now. This is just to orient you.

1647
02:04:42,350 --> 02:04:45,570
This is north up here, 146. Here's the highway here.

1648
02:04:45,970 --> 02:04:48,930
And then Clay Terrace Drive runs up through Boulevard, runs through the middle.

1649
02:04:50,530 --> 02:04:52,390
It's a little bit more of a zoomed in look.

1650
02:04:55,910 --> 02:04:57,370
Here's the concept plan as well.

1651
02:04:57,370 --> 02:04:57,950
Well,

1652
02:05:01,810 --> 02:05:11,450
President Grabo mentioned this is 150 rooms within the development of the renderings.

1653
02:05:11,990 --> 02:05:17,370
There is on the first floor, as you'll see on the west side, there's a courtyard area

1654
02:05:17,370 --> 02:05:19,510
opened up in this area with the first floor.

1655
02:05:19,610 --> 02:05:26,170
There's the lobby, the front desk, the bar, kitchen number of rooms on the first floor.

1656
02:05:26,270 --> 02:05:31,530
The second through fourth floors, as you can see in this area through here, those

1657
02:05:31,530 --> 02:05:37,870
Those are all, will be the hotel rooms, and then at the top floor, one of the things that

1658
02:05:37,870 --> 02:05:42,510
the team has been working on with the city is this fifth floor will have an outdoor, it's

1659
02:05:42,510 --> 02:05:49,130
a covered outdoor area here for, there'll be a bar, there's a dining room inside with

1660
02:05:49,130 --> 02:05:51,250
a couple of private dining rooms as well.

1661
02:05:51,570 --> 02:05:54,630
There's the fitness areas on the fifth floor also.

1662
02:05:55,330 --> 02:05:59,910
From the architectural perspective, the team has worked closely with the city.

1663
02:05:59,910 --> 02:06:06,450
This is all mainly brick where the tower is, along the base and the tower, and architectural

1664
02:06:06,450 --> 02:06:10,990
panels are the main material on the rest of that.

1665
02:06:12,030 --> 02:06:16,570
There were a number of comments in the staff report that the team continues to work with

1666
02:06:16,570 --> 02:06:20,330
Rachel and her team, but I would just give you a note there was a question about long-term

1667
02:06:20,330 --> 02:06:24,970
bicycle parking that is being provided inside, so we'll between now and get into the

1668
02:06:24,970 --> 02:06:25,230
committee.

1669
02:06:25,230 --> 02:06:29,570
We'll be providing, a lot of these probably have it, but where are they, where are we

1670
02:06:29,570 --> 02:06:29,970
showing it?

1671
02:06:30,010 --> 02:06:33,270
So we'll get that updated plans for that committee meeting, but there are, we do have

1672
02:06:33,730 --> 02:06:36,010
plenty of long-term bike parking.

1673
02:06:36,610 --> 02:06:41,030
The couple questions about exterior lighting and rooftop lighting, we will be providing

1674
02:06:41,030 --> 02:06:42,570
that, those answers as well.

1675
02:06:42,690 --> 02:06:45,710
Those are all going to be already incorporated into the plan.

1676
02:06:45,870 --> 02:06:49,010
We just need to provide some additional detail, and then there was also a question

1677
02:06:49,010 --> 02:06:53,430
at the bottom of that first page about providing some additional detail about the

1678
02:06:53,430 --> 02:06:57,650
screening of the rooftop equipment and that has also been accommodated as well and we'll

1679
02:06:57,650 --> 02:07:01,510
work with the staff between now and the committee meeting to provide that additional detail to

1680
02:07:01,510 --> 02:07:02,810
make sure that that is all there.

1681
02:07:05,150 --> 02:07:09,990
The plans for this project are to move forward to begin construction in 2023.

1682
02:07:10,430 --> 02:07:14,030
You'll be seeing as we go through the coming months the team is continuing to work with

1683
02:07:14,030 --> 02:07:17,110
the city on the rest of the first phase of the redevelopment of Clay Terrace which

1684
02:07:17,110 --> 02:07:18,490
we talked about a couple of years ago.

1685
02:07:19,150 --> 02:07:22,210
We had a pandemic that intervened at the beginning of all of that.

1686
02:07:22,210 --> 02:07:26,450
So we are now back to the first part of that process is with the hotel

1687
02:07:26,950 --> 02:07:29,610
I know you've had quite a long meeting already tonight

1688
02:07:29,610 --> 02:07:31,150
So I'm going to wrap up and

1689
02:07:31,610 --> 02:07:37,930
Respectfully request you to forward us on to your committee where we'll be happy to continue to work through any questions and answers that the Plain Commission

1690
02:07:37,930 --> 02:07:40,830
Has as well as for the staff as well. Thank you very much

1691
02:07:41,790 --> 02:07:48,410
Thank You Steve. This is a public hearing. Can I see how many members in our gallery wish to speak on this petition?

1692
02:07:51,900 --> 02:07:52,480
two hands

1693
02:07:53,440 --> 02:07:54,740
five minutes apiece,

1694
02:07:58,200 --> 02:08:00,260
whoever wishes to be first, step right up to the microphone.

1695
02:08:00,700 --> 02:08:00,940
Good

1696
02:08:11,340 --> 02:08:14,740
evening. I'll be brief. I'm Jessica Sherman. I'm actually from Noblesville.

1697
02:08:14,840 --> 02:08:20,380
I've never been to one of these before. Hoping that I'm in the right meeting,

1698
02:08:20,660 --> 02:08:25,100
I actually don't have a major opposition to the development of this hotel,

1699
02:08:25,100 --> 02:08:29,640
but I believe that it falls in the area of the Clay Terrace dog park,

1700
02:08:29,920 --> 02:08:33,960
which I've frequented the last several months.

1701
02:08:33,960 --> 02:08:36,600
with my dog, and I don't know if any of you have dogs here,

1702
02:08:37,020 --> 02:08:38,640
but if you do and you've ever been there,

1703
02:08:38,700 --> 02:08:41,760
you probably notice that it's a great community

1704
02:08:42,280 --> 02:08:43,440
and a lot of activity.

1705
02:08:43,820 --> 02:08:48,860
So really all I wanna ask for is if this is that location,

1706
02:08:49,600 --> 02:08:52,960
I'm hoping that there's going to be a space for that

1707
02:08:52,960 --> 02:08:55,320
to be relocated somewhere in Clay Terrace.

1708
02:08:55,740 --> 02:08:58,000
There is a really big need for this in the community.

1709
02:08:58,440 --> 02:09:01,740
There aren't many dog parks in the area that are free.

1710
02:09:01,740 --> 02:09:07,120
There is another one in Carmel, but it is you have to pay to get into it and there's currently a waitlist

1711
02:09:07,120 --> 02:09:11,860
So my only other alternative is Hamilton Town Center. So

1712
02:09:12,740 --> 02:09:16,340
That's kind of what I'm asking for and I know there were other people in the park

1713
02:09:16,340 --> 02:09:19,480
I thought maybe would be here, but I don't see them here

1714
02:09:19,480 --> 02:09:22,500
so I guess I'm the lone representative and

1715
02:09:23,160 --> 02:09:27,500
What we're hoping for is if this is the case that we can get some kind of a temporary

1716
02:09:27,500 --> 02:09:33,280
relocation. In the meantime, if there is a more permanent relocation plan for that because

1717
02:09:34,000 --> 02:09:38,140
there's, I mean, I'm probably there three times a week and many other people are as

1718
02:09:38,140 --> 02:09:45,220
well and it's just a huge asset to the community. So, that's really all I have. And I appreciate

1719
02:09:45,220 --> 02:09:46,280
your time. Thank you.

1720
02:09:46,760 --> 02:09:50,960
Thank you. Your fellow dog owners let you speak for them. You did such a good job.

1721
02:09:51,440 --> 02:09:52,120
Thank you.

1722
02:09:53,180 --> 02:09:53,720
Yes, sir.

1723
02:09:53,720 --> 02:09:59,960
I'm not a dog lover, but it is going where the dog park is, correct?

1724
02:10:00,460 --> 02:10:03,740
In case there was a rumor that it was going to be moved down by the pond.

1725
02:10:04,460 --> 02:10:06,480
And that was going to bother me.

1726
02:10:07,680 --> 02:10:09,560
First of all, I'd like to thank the City of Carmel.

1727
02:10:09,560 --> 02:10:11,620
Could we get your name, please, for the record, sir?

1728
02:10:12,100 --> 02:10:14,900
I'd like to thank City of Carmel for everything that's done.

1729
02:10:16,280 --> 02:10:22,080
You guys are putting up with a lot, and it always does get back to traffic, though, doesn't it?

1730
02:10:22,080 --> 02:10:26,780
All your new project, well, that's because the towns are bumping into each other

1731
02:10:28,080 --> 02:10:35,600
We're gonna have a traffic problem there also because in addition to the hotel going up. I believe

1732
02:10:36,360 --> 02:10:40,380
Clay terrorists is also need to put apartment complexes up

1733
02:10:40,380 --> 02:10:49,240
That that's was was the last plan that we were advised of that the city has already approved and then

1734
02:10:49,800 --> 02:10:51,120
in the

1735
02:10:52,140 --> 02:10:58,960
Clay Terrace itself, they were going to reduce those drive lanes down to one lane

1736
02:10:58,960 --> 02:11:05,860
on each side, north and south, and have a bike path going up each side.

1737
02:11:06,400 --> 02:11:11,620
All for bikes, I'm not arguing about that, but the traffic is going to get

1738
02:11:11,620 --> 02:11:17,120
more and more heavy through that area once the hotel is there

1739
02:11:17,120 --> 02:11:19,720
and once the apartment complexes are there.

1740
02:11:21,060 --> 02:11:29,080
I think it was a great idea for putting that new pathway from range line over to Lowesway.

1741
02:11:29,460 --> 02:11:30,300
That was great.

1742
02:11:31,000 --> 02:11:38,220
But if you want to see traffic, go to Lowes on 146th Street between 430 and 5 o'clock

1743
02:11:38,220 --> 02:11:44,820
every day and you'll see that traffic backed up going east all the way to Kerry Road, bumper

1744
02:11:44,820 --> 02:11:45,280
to bumper.

1745
02:11:46,100 --> 02:11:48,060
So it gets down to traffic.

1746
02:11:48,060 --> 02:11:50,820
And then the other thing it gets down to is safety.

1747
02:11:51,800 --> 02:11:56,460
When they first built Clay Terrace, we had problems.

1748
02:11:56,920 --> 02:12:02,160
I live in Clay Terrace. I live in Walters Plaza, and I've been there since 97.

1749
02:12:02,980 --> 02:12:07,420
And the problem was that they put the barrier wall in last.

1750
02:12:08,100 --> 02:12:14,400
They built Clay Terrace, and then they put the barrier wall in between Clay Terrace and the neighborhoods.

1751
02:12:14,400 --> 02:12:19,880
They should have done that first, and I think that's whenever you're looking at additions

1752
02:12:20,520 --> 02:12:28,960
that are within a neighborhood, tell the contractors, build the barrier walls first, and secondly,

1753
02:12:30,280 --> 02:12:37,700
your first thing on the plan should be, what am I going to do construction-wise that's

1754
02:12:37,700 --> 02:12:43,240
going to affect the neighborhood, because that gets people upset, and then they're

1755
02:12:43,240 --> 02:12:49,580
end here and they're complaining. Traffic, I still think, I wish they would have put

1756
02:12:50,180 --> 02:13:01,740
a exit onto 31 between Northbound South or North rather and Clay Terrace Boulevard. And

1757
02:13:01,740 --> 02:13:07,180
if you can still do that, that's going to help the hotel. It's going to help people

1758
02:13:07,180 --> 02:13:12,100
get to the hotel and get away from the hotel. That's all I got. Thank you.

1759
02:13:12,520 --> 02:13:15,220
Thank you. Sir, if we could get your name for the record, please.

1760
02:13:15,380 --> 02:13:18,380
Sure. James Chiato.

1761
02:13:19,040 --> 02:13:19,960
Thank you very much.

1762
02:13:22,560 --> 02:13:24,420
So anyone else who wishes to speak on this petition?

1763
02:13:26,600 --> 02:13:27,060
Very well.

1764
02:13:27,520 --> 02:13:29,100
Then we'll proceed to the department report.

1765
02:13:32,990 --> 02:13:36,530
Excuse me, a petitioner has a chance to respond to any of those comments. I'm sorry, Steve.

1766
02:13:40,180 --> 02:13:43,460
Thank you, Mr. President. I think we had two comments.

1767
02:13:44,180 --> 02:13:48,540
The first one for Mrs. Sherman, is that right?

1768
02:13:48,540 --> 02:13:53,560
Mr. Sherman. So you'll be pleased to hear the answer to this, which is that you are

1769
02:13:53,560 --> 02:13:58,240
correct, number one, that that is in the location where the dog park is. And the Clay Terrace

1770
02:13:58,240 --> 02:14:02,940
folks are very glad that the community enjoys the amenity that they've been providing to

1771
02:14:02,940 --> 02:14:07,240
their customers at Clay Terrace. It's not a city-owned park. It's completely owned

1772
02:14:07,240 --> 02:14:12,760
and managed and maintained at no cost to the public, the customers that come there

1773
02:14:12,760 --> 02:14:16,340
to Clay Terrace. And so they're happy that people really enjoy it. And as part

1774
02:14:16,340 --> 02:14:19,360
Part of the overall redevelopment plan, they do plan to relocate.

1775
02:14:19,500 --> 02:14:22,960
It's not firm exactly where it's going to go yet, as we're still working through with

1776
02:14:22,960 --> 02:14:24,780
the city on that, but that is what the plan is.

1777
02:14:25,540 --> 02:14:30,920
And then secondly, with Mr. Jadow's comments about traffic, I think most of the planning

1778
02:14:30,920 --> 02:14:33,660
commission members probably remember we did talk a lot about traffic.

1779
02:14:33,780 --> 02:14:37,780
There's lots of traffic analysis and road improvements when we worked through the

1780
02:14:37,780 --> 02:14:39,500
redevelopment plan two years ago.

1781
02:14:39,920 --> 02:14:43,340
So we're happy at the committee to have the design team will be there to provide

1782
02:14:43,340 --> 02:14:47,440
any refreshers on what the road plans are and all those different things as well.

1783
02:14:47,640 --> 02:14:51,860
But traffic was something that was much discussed a couple of years ago on the plan.

1784
02:14:52,420 --> 02:14:56,360
We're happy to go back over that again if anybody's interested in it.

1785
02:14:56,820 --> 02:14:57,520
Thank you very much.

1786
02:14:58,480 --> 02:14:59,200
Thank you.

1787
02:15:00,000 --> 02:15:03,960
All the department report. Thank you. For the record, my name is Rachel Kiesling, planner

1788
02:15:03,960 --> 02:15:09,180
with the Department of Community Services. As we have heard tonight, the petitioner plans

1789
02:15:09,180 --> 02:15:14,780
to build a new hotel in Clay Terrace. This is the first project that is coming before us

1790
02:15:14,780 --> 02:15:23,480
after they revised the PUD a couple years ago. And this hotel meets nearly all of the

1791
02:15:23,480 --> 02:15:30,180
PUD requirements as I state in the Department report and as Steve kind of went over the

1792
02:15:30,180 --> 02:15:35,280
items that they do not meet are just items that I was not able to find or we just need

1793
02:15:35,280 --> 02:15:36,320
more information on.

1794
02:15:37,740 --> 02:15:42,080
Some of those things like the long-term bike parking that's required for a hotel,

1795
02:15:42,940 --> 02:15:47,820
this will need to be in a central location on the first floor of the hotel so that

1796
02:15:47,820 --> 02:15:49,920
it's accessible to guests and to workers.

1797
02:15:51,880 --> 02:15:58,660
I asked about exterior architectural lighting so that we could know how the building will

1798
02:15:58,660 --> 02:16:05,500
be illuminated either with sconce-type lights on the actual building or up lights shining

1799
02:16:05,500 --> 02:16:06,200
onto the building.

1800
02:16:07,020 --> 02:16:10,060
Those are the kind of details that we want to know more about.

1801
02:16:11,040 --> 02:16:15,700
One of the things the PUD says is that rooftop lighting is prohibited, prohibited.

1802
02:16:15,700 --> 02:16:22,960
So we want to make sure that the major architectural element on the fifth floor above the restaurant

1803
02:16:23,820 --> 02:16:29,440
bar does not have integral lighting or lighting that shines up into the sky.

1804
02:16:29,720 --> 02:16:31,780
So details on that would be good.

1805
02:16:32,140 --> 02:16:37,020
And then the last thing I asked for clarification on was the rooftop HVAC equipment and where

1806
02:16:37,020 --> 02:16:39,720
that would be and how it would be fully screened.

1807
02:16:39,720 --> 02:16:46,660
The plan does have enough parking and part of that is shared parking with the rest of the shopping center.

1808
02:16:47,540 --> 02:16:57,800
There are no new parking garages proposed at this time, but there may be with future development, future phases of the development or the redevelopment of Clay Terrace, I mean.

1809
02:16:58,600 --> 02:17:05,900
There are sidewalks around the building as well as connections being provided to Clay Terrace Boulevard and to the path along U.S. 31.

1810
02:17:06,600 --> 02:17:13,640
The building design is modern with brick, architectural panels, stone, glass, and metal panels.

1811
02:17:14,620 --> 02:17:20,600
And I mentioned a minute ago the rooftop bar and restaurant will have a really unique roof feature.

1812
02:17:21,140 --> 02:17:28,800
It kind of resembles a wing or something like swooping up towards the sky and it opens out onto the south courtyard

1813
02:17:28,800 --> 02:17:32,500
and the existing green space that's out there right now.

1814
02:17:33,520 --> 02:17:35,920
New landscaping will be provided all around the building.

1815
02:17:37,440 --> 02:17:43,800
Something to note is that the existing playground in the center of the existing green space will be removed.

1816
02:17:44,540 --> 02:17:49,860
There's also a plan for a few of those large trees to be removed in that central green space.

1817
02:17:50,580 --> 02:17:53,400
The department is not in favor of removing those trees.

1818
02:17:54,940 --> 02:18:01,260
We've had the urban forester go out to inspect the trees and he believes that there's no reason to take them down.

1819
02:18:02,480 --> 02:18:09,500
There's also a proposal for some of the trees on site to be relocated into the central green area.

1820
02:18:10,220 --> 02:18:19,580
And we're also concerned about that because we don't recommend relocating trees that are six inches or greater in diameter.

1821
02:18:20,360 --> 02:18:25,700
And some of these trees that may be relocated are greater than six inches.

1822
02:18:26,020 --> 02:18:29,260
So while it may be possible to physically relocate them,

1823
02:18:29,260 --> 02:18:35,880
It may not be the best for the future longevity of the tree and we might be better just to start over with new trees

1824
02:18:36,480 --> 02:18:37,780
in some of these spots

1825
02:18:39,080 --> 02:18:40,860
Lastly signage that's proposed

1826
02:18:42,680 --> 02:18:47,580
Appears to meet the PUD requirements in terms of number and size of the signs

1827
02:18:47,580 --> 02:18:55,400
But we will continue to review that as well as the other items. I've discussed as we work through the review on our

1828
02:18:55,940 --> 02:18:56,760
project docs

1829
02:18:57,800 --> 02:19:02,020
electronic software review. So we recommend that this goes to the commercial

1830
02:19:02,020 --> 02:19:08,220
committee meeting on Thursday October 6th for further review. Thanks. Thank you.

1831
02:19:08,720 --> 02:19:13,900
That concludes the public hearing at 8 20 p.m. discussion from the commission.

1832
02:19:18,300 --> 02:19:22,300
Jeff? President Grayboe, a couple of quick questions and Steve and team I

1833
02:19:22,300 --> 02:19:27,000
don't need answers today you can regroup at committee. Can't

1834
02:19:29,560 --> 02:19:30,060
read my own

1835
02:19:31,040 --> 02:19:36,120
Oh, if they're not looking for firm commitment, but if you can speak even more intelligently

1836
02:19:36,120 --> 02:19:42,360
about just timeline of dogfark and any programming that happens in that green space and is there

1837
02:19:42,360 --> 02:19:47,020
a plan to get it back to when the public can be there again, might help set some minds

1838
02:19:47,020 --> 02:19:47,420
at ease.

1839
02:19:49,640 --> 02:19:53,120
I guess only a question so that we can kind of understand what's happening.

1840
02:19:53,360 --> 02:19:59,300
So if you look at an aerial today, the parking that's there, it just runs almost

1841
02:19:59,300 --> 02:20:04,260
almost at a straight line, kind of north-westerly island, maybe you can look at this, and the

1842
02:20:04,260 --> 02:20:07,940
new parking kind of juts out closer to the highways or something happening elevation-wise

1843
02:20:07,940 --> 02:20:13,360
just so that the group is fully understanding what we might see from that part of the site,

1844
02:20:13,520 --> 02:20:14,420
the eastern part of the site.

1845
02:20:16,860 --> 02:20:22,760
Can you explore whether the trail that is impacted can be reconstructed first so

1846
02:20:22,760 --> 02:20:24,940
that that pedestrian path is maintained?

1847
02:20:26,240 --> 02:20:30,040
And then at the risk of speaking outside of an area I know very much about,

1848
02:20:30,400 --> 02:20:33,840
the northwest face of the building looks very plain to me.

1849
02:20:34,560 --> 02:20:40,960
The other elevations look great, the wing, the balcony, the glass on the fifth floor,

1850
02:20:41,640 --> 02:20:46,660
but is there something that can be done to spruce up the northwest relief facing side of the building?

1851
02:20:47,600 --> 02:20:48,080
Thanks.

1852
02:20:48,080 --> 02:20:49,180
Steve,

1853
02:20:58,780 --> 02:21:05,060
is there a possibility that there would be valet parking to support the rooftop amenity?

1854
02:21:07,480 --> 02:21:13,540
The reason I ask is we don't typically design around that possibility.

1855
02:21:14,360 --> 02:21:21,620
And so you have valet parking staff competing with patrons and sort of a mixture of traffic flows.

1856
02:21:21,620 --> 02:21:28,440
So if the possibility exists and is significant then it would be great to design for that function,

1857
02:21:28,740 --> 02:21:32,720
not try to shoehorn it into a more standard parking field.

1858
02:21:33,260 --> 02:21:36,540
The answer is yes, that is definitely a possibility and we'll go into that in the committee

1859
02:21:36,540 --> 02:21:38,060
and talk a little bit more about it.

1860
02:21:38,160 --> 02:21:38,980
Thank you.

1861
02:21:39,720 --> 02:21:48,980
And then just my own two cents worth for staff are lighting standards are pretty current,

1862
02:21:48,980 --> 02:21:55,660
But lighting design and lighting products and lighting technology are still much more

1863
02:21:55,660 --> 02:21:58,000
up-to-date than our lighting standards.

1864
02:21:58,580 --> 02:22:04,240
So any unique features that add interest without overly commercializing the property

1865
02:22:04,240 --> 02:22:10,120
would have my support for one, two cents worth.

1866
02:22:17,050 --> 02:22:17,170
Debbie.

1867
02:22:17,170 --> 02:22:20,030
Excuse me, just a quick comment.

1868
02:22:23,090 --> 02:22:30,930
Is it possible to revisit the traffic entrance and exit? I

1869
02:22:30,930 --> 02:22:35,910
realize that's not what the plan that's being brought, but if there's going to be major construction

1870
02:22:35,910 --> 02:22:42,830
there, is this the time to look at that again? I just know that when that was all redesigned,

1871
02:22:42,830 --> 02:22:50,190
And it's not exactly intuitive for how to get to point A to point B. And I'm just asking,

1872
02:22:50,290 --> 02:22:55,030
is it possible to look at that in the context of developing the overall plans?

1873
02:22:55,190 --> 02:22:59,830
I realize it's outside the scope of the hotel per se, but this would be the time

1874
02:22:59,830 --> 02:23:01,250
to look at it, to revisit it.

1875
02:23:01,930 --> 02:23:03,290
Do you mean onto 31?

1876
02:23:04,230 --> 02:23:05,450
Do you mean onto 31?

1877
02:23:06,510 --> 02:23:06,950
Yes.

1878
02:23:07,310 --> 02:23:07,470
Okay.

1879
02:23:09,090 --> 02:23:14,310
My understanding is the state is not interested in having any more entrances and exits on the

1880
02:23:14,310 --> 02:23:16,630
31, and the less, the better.

1881
02:23:17,130 --> 02:23:18,070
My understanding.

1882
02:23:28,050 --> 02:23:35,190
I wanted to clarify that when you were talking about revisiting the or visiting the entrances,

1883
02:23:35,690 --> 02:23:42,830
you were talking about the entrance to this project or the entrance to the entire shopping

1884
02:23:42,830 --> 02:23:43,190
center.

1885
02:23:43,550 --> 02:23:43,750
Yeah.

1886
02:23:46,850 --> 02:23:51,270
Well, you know that may be a funny, but I think we need to give people direction here

1887
02:23:51,270 --> 02:23:57,010
No, my question was entrance to 30 to 31, but yes

1888
02:23:57,810 --> 02:24:04,230
As we're looking at the overall design now would be the time to revisit especially if the if the north-south

1889
02:24:04,230 --> 02:24:12,850
Drive within clay terrace is going to be narrowed. There's going to be lanes removed now would be the time to revisit that so that you don't have

1890
02:24:13,490 --> 02:24:15,430
create more traffic congestion

1891
02:24:15,430 --> 02:24:20,090
rather than maintain traffic as it is right now.

1892
02:24:22,420 --> 02:24:27,580
Mr. President, I'm always kind of concerned when we start

1893
02:24:27,580 --> 02:24:31,400
overstepping our reach and we should let the engineers

1894
02:24:31,400 --> 02:24:36,240
and the fire department and those people do what they do.

1895
02:24:36,880 --> 02:24:42,960
And if the city engineer wants to make that recommendation,

1896
02:24:43,440 --> 02:24:46,700
I get worried when we start to become traffic

1897
02:24:46,700 --> 02:24:53,760
aficionados or when we overstep our boundaries that's I just want to remind

1898
02:24:53,760 --> 02:25:01,080
the Commission. Mr. President, I'd like to jump on after Josh there and say when

1899
02:25:01,080 --> 02:25:07,840
this was originally built Clay Terrace was the main north-south drag it it

1900
02:25:07,840 --> 02:25:16,480
wasn't built just as a shopping center it was built as the main avenue to carry

1901
02:25:16,480 --> 02:25:21,020
traffic north and south there. And that's not the case anymore with the upgrades that

1902
02:25:21,020 --> 02:25:26,580
have been done to 31. So I just wanted to point that out. It doesn't need to be as wide

1903
02:25:26,580 --> 02:25:27,360
as it used to be.

1904
02:25:35,230 --> 02:25:38,770
Comments, questions for the petitioner? Guidance as we had to committee?

1905
02:25:40,730 --> 02:25:44,810
I concur. I'm not trying to overstep bounds. I'm just saying that while the project

1906
02:25:44,810 --> 02:25:50,390
is in this stage, if those who have an interest in that would want to look at

1907
02:25:50,390 --> 02:25:53,150
it again, now would be the time to do it. That's all I'm raising.

1908
02:25:53,150 --> 02:26:00,090
Steve, it may be helpful to not necessarily tonight, but at some point to kind of recap

1909
02:26:00,610 --> 02:26:08,930
what we accomplished in our last visit when there was a sort of a kind of a satellite

1910
02:26:08,930 --> 02:26:15,210
level review of how the whole Clay Terrace project might change under Washington Prime's

1911
02:26:15,210 --> 02:26:15,510
ownership.

1912
02:26:15,830 --> 02:26:16,650
I think that may be helpful.

1913
02:26:16,990 --> 02:26:17,550
Great.

1914
02:26:17,910 --> 02:26:18,190
Thank you.

1915
02:26:20,420 --> 02:26:20,900
Is there a motion?

1916
02:26:21,800 --> 02:26:22,660
I would move.

1917
02:26:22,660 --> 02:26:29,100
we send this item to the commercial committee. I think I heard October 6th for further discussion

1918
02:26:29,100 --> 02:26:31,280
with a vote coming back to the full plan commission.

1919
02:26:31,880 --> 02:26:32,220
Second.

1920
02:26:34,370 --> 02:26:41,210
Thank you, Mr. Hill and Ms. Buckler for this. I'm sorry. Sue for the second. All in favor

1921
02:26:41,210 --> 02:26:46,650
of the motion say aye. Aye. Any opposed? This will go to the commercial committee for further

1922
02:26:46,650 --> 02:26:54,050
work to return to the Commission for Final Action beginning on October, Thursday, October

1923
02:26:54,050 --> 02:26:54,610
6th.

1924
02:26:54,770 --> 02:26:55,110
Thank you.

1925
02:26:55,470 --> 02:26:55,690
Thank you.

1926
02:26:59,310 --> 02:27:07,450
And our last public hearing this evening is DOC at PZ-2022-00167Z, First Avenue Southeast

1927
02:27:07,450 --> 02:27:08,930
C2 Rezone.

1928
02:27:09,570 --> 02:27:13,650
The applicant seeks to rezone four parcels from the B5 business, R2 residential,

1929
02:27:19,490 --> 02:27:19,510
and

1930
02:27:19,510 --> 02:27:21,870
to the C2 mixed-use district.

1931
02:27:22,630 --> 02:27:24,610
This site is generally located on the west side

1932
02:27:24,610 --> 02:27:27,490
of First Avenue Southeast between First Street

1933
02:27:27,490 --> 02:27:29,390
Southeast and Supply Street,

1934
02:27:30,070 --> 02:27:31,850
filed by the Department of Community Services

1935
02:27:31,850 --> 02:27:34,030
on behalf of the Carmel Plan Commission.

1936
02:27:35,090 --> 02:27:37,530
With all those street names and changes in street names,

1937
02:27:37,670 --> 02:27:39,690
I don't think this location can get any more confusing

1938
02:27:39,690 --> 02:27:43,030
to identify, yet I think we all know exactly

1939
02:27:43,030 --> 02:27:45,350
what you're about to tell us about, Adrienne.

1940
02:27:46,330 --> 02:27:48,810
So, Adrienne is here for the Plan Commission

1941
02:27:48,810 --> 02:27:49,810
to present the petition.

1942
02:27:50,590 --> 02:27:51,190
Yes.

1943
02:27:52,050 --> 02:27:54,990
I'm Adrienne Keeling with the Department of Community Services,

1944
02:27:55,310 --> 02:27:59,770
and I brought a map because this is one of the corners

1945
02:27:59,770 --> 02:28:01,390
of first and first that we have.

1946
02:28:03,510 --> 02:28:08,390
This proposal this evening is to rezone four parcels

1947
02:28:08,390 --> 02:28:11,590
that are outlined in yellow in the southeast quadrant

1948
02:28:11,590 --> 02:28:12,990
of the Arts and Design District.

1949
02:28:12,990 --> 02:28:27,270
project. This is Main Street and this is Rangeline Road. And this site is bounded by First Avenue

1950
02:28:27,270 --> 02:28:35,270
Southeast, First Street Southeast, Supply Street, which is formerly Second Street Southeast,

1951
02:28:35,270 --> 02:28:40,050
east and this alley to the west.

1952
02:28:41,930 --> 02:28:48,830
As another landmark, this is the east half of the block directly across the street from

1953
02:28:48,830 --> 02:28:51,470
the Indiana Design Center across Range Line.

1954
02:28:53,170 --> 02:29:00,270
The site contains a small law office and two rental homes.

1955
02:29:01,470 --> 02:29:07,910
I will turn on the zoning layer here and zoom in a little bit to

1956
02:29:10,440 --> 02:29:11,240
give you a little more

1957
02:29:11,240 --> 02:29:11,800
information.

1958
02:29:13,900 --> 02:29:23,820
The site in question, again outlined in yellow, contains R2, R3 and B5 zoning as well as

1959
02:29:23,820 --> 02:29:25,160
the old town overlay.

1960
02:29:25,160 --> 02:29:35,240
However, the western half of this block that I'll refer to in my presentation is outlined

1961
02:29:35,240 --> 02:29:39,940
in black, this western half of the block is zoned C2.

1962
02:29:40,660 --> 02:29:46,400
The purpose of this proposal this evening is to extend the C2 district across the entire

1963
02:29:46,400 --> 02:29:51,600
block to allow for a redevelopment proposal to be reviewed under a singular zoning

1964
02:29:51,600 --> 02:29:54,120
district and singular process.

1965
02:29:57,020 --> 02:29:59,440
Normally I would say...

1966
02:30:00,000 --> 02:30:06,360
During these C2 re-zones, nothing has been filed and we don't have any information in terms

1967
02:30:06,360 --> 02:30:12,180
of site information. However, in this instance, we do have a little bit of information about

1968
02:30:12,180 --> 02:30:20,020
the status of the site. The city council recently approved the Carmel Redevelopment Commission

1969
02:30:20,700 --> 02:30:27,920
to proceed with the acquisition of all of the parcels in this block for a proposed redevelopment

1970
02:30:27,920 --> 02:30:35,220
project. During that discussion at the August 1st Council meeting, where the Council authorized

1971
02:30:35,220 --> 02:30:42,780
that acquisition, there were draft renderings shared, and you may have seen media coverage

1972
02:30:43,140 --> 02:30:49,120
for potential mixed-use building along Range Line. The portion already in the C2 district

1973
02:30:49,120 --> 02:30:53,240
with plans for the 1933 Lounge Restaurant Concept

1974
02:30:54,040 --> 02:30:56,340
with upper story offices.

1975
02:30:57,540 --> 02:31:00,860
Also shared during that August 1st meeting

1976
02:31:01,140 --> 02:31:03,900
was a conceptual site plan for the entire block,

1977
02:31:04,540 --> 02:31:08,960
which included townhomes on the eastern half of the block

1978
02:31:09,780 --> 02:31:12,840
which would potentially face 1st Avenue Southeast.

1979
02:31:13,800 --> 02:31:18,160
However, that conceptual site plan is a concept

1980
02:31:19,140 --> 02:31:26,980
Simply a concept and it has not been designed or anything approved by the CRC.

1981
02:31:27,940 --> 02:31:37,320
We have received a few comments, mostly in reaction to that conceptual site plan that

1982
02:31:37,320 --> 02:31:40,860
was discussed at the City Council meeting.

1983
02:31:41,900 --> 02:31:48,740
The redevelopment department has received those comments and has indicated that they

1984
02:31:48,740 --> 02:31:55,340
would take those into consideration as they work with the developer to design the site.

1985
02:31:57,400 --> 02:32:05,360
Director Henry Mustetski is here also in the audience, so he'll also hear if anyone chooses

1986
02:32:05,360 --> 02:32:14,160
to wish to speak this evening. After design of the project, this is of course considering

1987
02:32:14,160 --> 02:32:17,280
hearing if the C2 was approved across the entire site.

1988
02:32:19,500 --> 02:32:28,140
C2 includes several steps, including review by the Redevelopment Department, an architectural

1989
02:32:28,140 --> 02:32:31,580
committee of the CRC and the Carmel Redevelopment Commission itself.

1990
02:32:32,440 --> 02:32:37,560
And then with all C2 projects, in addition to CRC review, the project is reviewed

1991
02:32:37,560 --> 02:32:41,260
by DOCS staff, the technical advisory committee,

1992
02:32:41,980 --> 02:32:44,120
and a DPA-DLS public hearing

1993
02:32:44,120 --> 02:32:46,140
by the Plaint Commission's hearing officer.

1994
02:32:47,240 --> 02:32:49,800
And that hearing, that public hearing

1995
02:32:49,800 --> 02:32:52,040
has all the same methods of public notice

1996
02:32:52,740 --> 02:32:54,520
as public hearings held by the,

1997
02:32:54,720 --> 02:32:56,360
by the full Plaint Commission.

1998
02:32:56,920 --> 02:32:58,540
That includes newspaper notification,

1999
02:32:59,540 --> 02:33:02,420
signs and letters to adjacent property owners.

2000
02:33:07,150 --> 02:33:12,710
That's the extent of my presentation this evening, but I'm happy to answer questions after the

2001
02:33:12,710 --> 02:33:19,490
public hearing portion, and we are recommending that you suspend your, excuse me, suspend

2002
02:33:19,490 --> 02:33:25,750
your rules of procedures this evening to send this item to the City Council for favorable

2003
02:33:26,690 --> 02:33:27,250
consideration.

2004
02:33:28,170 --> 02:33:28,530
Thank you.

2005
02:33:29,450 --> 02:33:30,190
Thank you.

2006
02:33:30,690 --> 02:33:33,330
Public hearing continues with comments from members of the public.

2007
02:33:33,330 --> 02:33:35,870
How many folks are here to speak on this petition tonight?

2008
02:33:37,590 --> 02:33:39,050
One, two, Mr. Thomas?

2009
02:33:40,030 --> 02:33:43,190
Okay, one, two, three.

2010
02:33:44,110 --> 02:33:46,650
Okay, so four minutes of peace.

2011
02:34:07,950 --> 02:34:08,630
This works.

2012
02:34:09,450 --> 02:34:10,550
You know what? Can I use your map?

2013
02:34:12,850 --> 02:34:13,350
Because I think it's...

2014
02:34:13,890 --> 02:34:14,390
Yeah, what do you need?

2015
02:34:16,580 --> 02:34:18,280
Okay, there it is. It lines up.

2016
02:34:18,500 --> 02:34:18,640
Thank you.

2017
02:34:19,020 --> 02:34:19,280
Sorry.

2018
02:34:20,240 --> 02:34:21,480
Is it obvious it was my first time?

2019
02:34:22,060 --> 02:34:22,900
Yeah, not at all.

2020
02:34:23,360 --> 02:34:23,960
Not at all.

2021
02:34:23,960 --> 02:34:29,640
So Bob Campbell, I live in the Carmel's Arts and Design District.

2022
02:34:29,860 --> 02:34:33,600
I will actually be the neighbor to this development.

2023
02:34:35,420 --> 02:34:36,760
I am not opposed to it.

2024
02:34:37,480 --> 02:34:40,420
I like a lot of what has been designed into this,

2025
02:34:40,580 --> 02:34:44,160
and I think it's a good addition to the area.

2026
02:34:46,140 --> 02:34:48,800
However, I do have a couple of requests

2027
02:34:48,800 --> 02:34:52,160
because we're just in the design stage.

2028
02:34:52,900 --> 02:34:54,400
because of a couple of concerns.

2029
02:34:55,640 --> 02:35:02,160
And the first one is these townhouses are going to be looking into our backyards

2030
02:35:02,160 --> 02:35:04,040
and down into my house.

2031
02:35:04,560 --> 02:35:11,220
So I would first ask that in development, they are at least 15 feet back from the curb.

2032
02:35:11,880 --> 02:35:16,780
Second, it's my understanding that there are going to be three stories high

2033
02:35:16,780 --> 02:35:24,880
with a balcony on top, very similar to what is going up next to our firehouse here.

2034
02:35:26,020 --> 02:35:30,680
And with that, I would ask that they are set four feet down,

2035
02:35:30,920 --> 02:35:38,160
because this is all obviously first and second-story houses here.

2036
02:35:38,720 --> 02:35:43,620
And then also, if they have to have the balconies on top,

2037
02:35:43,620 --> 02:35:49,320
have them face west towards range line because they have to come up and enter

2038
02:35:49,320 --> 02:35:55,240
onto that way they'll have a better view of the fireworks and that's much better

2039
02:35:55,240 --> 02:36:02,280
than my backyard and the other request in regards to the townhouses is they

2040
02:36:02,280 --> 02:36:08,240
have a tree line number one as they grow I also own a townhouse on City

2041
02:36:08,240 --> 02:36:08,980
center drive.

2042
02:36:09,260 --> 02:36:15,780
So I know how this blocks out the sun and makes it much more energy efficient and gives

2043
02:36:15,780 --> 02:36:20,600
them less of a view into the side of my house where I have some just open windows, including

2044
02:36:20,600 --> 02:36:27,140
one that looks into a large walk-in shower that was put there with open lighting, et cetera.

2045
02:36:27,840 --> 02:36:30,720
Not knowing that third story townhouses were going to go up there.

2046
02:36:32,700 --> 02:36:42,000
So, also, I would like to ask that this type of development is not allowed to go south of

2047
02:36:42,000 --> 02:36:47,860
Supply Road along First Avenue Southeast, and that it stops there.

2048
02:36:49,740 --> 02:36:54,020
There's not a Plan B, Plan C, et cetera.

2049
02:36:56,360 --> 02:37:10,400
So, also, one of my other concerns was the First Street Southeast, this little area right

2050
02:37:10,400 --> 02:37:10,720
here.

2051
02:37:11,320 --> 02:37:14,940
So, of course, we have the Lions Club and we have this public parking lot here.

2052
02:37:15,400 --> 02:37:18,700
And the 1933 Lounge, I think, is a great addition.

2053
02:37:18,700 --> 02:37:25,620
any huge restaurant group concept coming is a feather in our cap.

2054
02:37:26,340 --> 02:37:29,460
So I do know there's probably going to be valet parking.

2055
02:37:30,720 --> 02:37:33,600
So two things with the amount of traffic,

2056
02:37:33,900 --> 02:37:36,120
and you've heard a lot tonight about traffic.

2057
02:37:36,360 --> 02:37:37,560
That seems to be a common word.

2058
02:37:38,300 --> 02:37:40,300
And it is. It's always a concern in a neighborhood, right?

2059
02:37:40,840 --> 02:37:46,280
So that small street there first, right now there's public parking there.

2060
02:37:46,280 --> 02:37:51,040
So it is a narrow street, so we would want,

2061
02:37:51,140 --> 02:37:52,140
and maybe this is not the committee,

2062
02:37:52,240 --> 02:37:54,720
but it's our opportunity to say it,

2063
02:37:55,080 --> 02:37:57,660
we would want a no parking zone

2064
02:37:57,660 --> 02:38:02,000
or residents-only parking with a zone sticker there,

2065
02:38:02,600 --> 02:38:10,100
and also not allowing the valets to use that parking lot

2066
02:38:10,100 --> 02:38:11,660
for the Lions Club,

2067
02:38:11,980 --> 02:38:13,720
because that amount of traffic,

2068
02:38:13,720 --> 02:38:19,420
the valet park is running in a rush getting the cars back and forth. If there's also parking

2069
02:38:19,420 --> 02:38:28,060
there, a lot of issues could happen with that. So the city's done a great job of designing

2070
02:38:28,060 --> 02:38:32,160
plenty of parking structures, making sure that those are designed into all the developments

2071
02:38:32,160 --> 02:38:41,060
in and around the Arts and Design District. So there should be plenty of parking without

2072
02:38:41,060 --> 02:38:48,060
using that lot for the valet parkers. And I

2073
02:38:50,140 --> 02:38:52,200
did send an email detailing all this and

2074
02:38:52,200 --> 02:38:58,700
a few other things to Henry. So if anybody wants it, I copied a lot of people, don't know

2075
02:38:58,700 --> 02:39:02,700
if I got everybody. So if anybody wants it, he can forward it to you. Again, I'm not

2076
02:39:02,700 --> 02:39:08,600
opposed to the project. I have some concerns. And so I have some requests to address

2077
02:39:08,600 --> 02:39:11,020
those concerns. Thank you.

2078
02:39:11,020 --> 02:39:11,060
Thank you.

2079
02:39:11,400 --> 02:39:11,820
My

2080
02:39:24,530 --> 02:39:32,130
name is Janet Raymond, and my husband and I, Mark, live on the map, we'll just say.

2081
02:39:32,650 --> 02:39:36,810
We live on South Range Line Road, a couple of blocks south of the planned development,

2082
02:39:37,350 --> 02:39:42,290
and we do appreciate this opportunity to, since we're early on in the concept and

2083
02:39:42,290 --> 02:39:47,530
design phase, to voice some concerns or things that we would like to have taken

2084
02:39:47,530 --> 02:39:51,070
under consideration as planning moves forward.

2085
02:39:51,070 --> 02:39:56,590
I think I echo the sentiments of most in the group that we're not opposed to the development.

2086
02:39:57,090 --> 02:40:01,050
It's part of why we choose to live in downtown Carmel and invest in the area.

2087
02:40:01,610 --> 02:40:06,750
We just ask that the group be mindful of long-term residents that have lived in the area.

2088
02:40:07,190 --> 02:40:09,530
We've actually owned our property since 1991.

2089
02:40:10,230 --> 02:40:15,410
So we've seen all of this change happen, and it's why we continue to live here.

2090
02:40:16,510 --> 02:40:20,930
To echo some of the concerns that have already been voiced, I think Valley Parking, which

2091
02:40:20,930 --> 02:40:25,090
you astutely mentioned, I think we've all seen traffic back up in front of Anthony's.

2092
02:40:25,350 --> 02:40:27,970
We would like to have that avoided in this area.

2093
02:40:29,510 --> 02:40:36,970
Vehicle entrances to the property, if those could be constructed to direct traffic out

2094
02:40:36,970 --> 02:40:43,470
onto Range Line Road or to Main Street to avoid First Avenue, as well as the alleyway

2095
02:40:43,470 --> 02:40:47,730
that runs behind or kind of in between this property

2096
02:40:47,730 --> 02:40:51,870
and strangely enough behind our property as well.

2097
02:40:52,310 --> 02:40:54,630
I think that would be helpful for the community.

2098
02:40:55,890 --> 02:40:57,710
Loading docks and dumpsters,

2099
02:40:58,050 --> 02:41:00,850
we're getting a lot more just environmental noise

2100
02:41:00,850 --> 02:41:02,290
from the development in the area.

2101
02:41:02,710 --> 02:41:05,190
So if those could be considered to be located

2102
02:41:05,690 --> 02:41:09,110
closer to existing commercial loading docks and dumpsters

2103
02:41:09,110 --> 02:41:12,230
so we could keep that noise kind of centralized

2104
02:41:12,230 --> 02:41:15,690
and buffered from the existing residential properties.

2105
02:41:16,350 --> 02:41:19,150
I also agree with the setback of the townhomes

2106
02:41:19,150 --> 02:41:22,490
so we can maintain that residential look and feel

2107
02:41:22,490 --> 02:41:26,870
on First Avenue, I think that would be helpful as well

2108
02:41:26,870 --> 02:41:28,950
so they're not just right up against the sidewalk.

2109
02:41:29,730 --> 02:41:33,070
And then any type of tree or hedge border

2110
02:41:33,070 --> 02:41:37,250
at that southeast end to buffer the existing residences

2111
02:41:37,550 --> 02:41:40,130
and apartments that are along that area

2112
02:41:40,130 --> 02:41:43,370
would be something that we would like to have considered also.

2113
02:41:45,410 --> 02:41:46,130
Thank you.

2114
02:41:47,210 --> 02:41:47,950
Thank you.

2115
02:42:01,440 --> 02:42:02,480
I'll be real quick.

2116
02:42:09,730 --> 02:42:11,450
I'll figure out where my own dang house is.

2117
02:42:15,410 --> 02:42:17,530
North is obviously going this way.

2118
02:42:18,130 --> 02:42:19,110
My name is Jeff Watkins.

2119
02:42:19,890 --> 02:42:22,230
We live at 121 First Street, southeast.

2120
02:42:23,670 --> 02:42:27,690
Just briefly, I just wanted to back up with Janet and Bob said,

2121
02:42:27,830 --> 02:42:28,590
Bob is my neighbor.

2122
02:42:29,830 --> 02:42:32,630
Bob didn't show, but Bob lives right here.

2123
02:42:32,630 --> 02:42:38,690
here, and we live right here. This is obviously the lion's tail park right here. Right here

2124
02:42:38,690 --> 02:42:44,430
is going to be the town homes coming through here. And then, you know, obviously as Bob

2125
02:42:44,430 --> 02:42:51,990
has indicated, height and how those are constructed and how they look towards the homes that

2126
02:42:51,990 --> 02:42:58,470
are one and two stories here is consideration. And then the other considerations. Well,

2127
02:42:58,470 --> 02:43:07,150
Now what I tell my folks is, and as I go through life, the things that I think is what are the unintended consequences?

2128
02:43:08,190 --> 02:43:13,470
What are the unintended consequences of doing something different or development like this?

2129
02:43:13,990 --> 02:43:19,750
I don't know, but a couple of them that I wrote down are parking and neighborhood lighting.

2130
02:43:20,810 --> 02:43:25,830
I can say on this street right here, it's dark.

2131
02:43:25,830 --> 02:43:34,170
So if somehow this is going to be part of this, what kind of lighting is going to be here?

2132
02:43:34,710 --> 02:43:40,090
We do not want strong lighting because we prefer what we have.

2133
02:43:41,090 --> 02:43:46,910
What I would ask for consideration on the parking is that this little stub street here,

2134
02:43:47,050 --> 02:43:49,870
consideration is given for no parking on this.

2135
02:43:49,870 --> 02:43:56,070
And as Bob previously alluded to, this is going to be the restaurant supposedly according to the plans.

2136
02:43:56,610 --> 02:44:03,030
And then this, I'm assuming, may be used for parking for the restaurant.

2137
02:44:03,930 --> 02:44:10,650
We would ask that consideration of not allowing the ballet parking here be considered.

2138
02:44:11,450 --> 02:44:16,910
So that's really, we're 100% before this. We appreciate this development.

2139
02:44:17,970 --> 02:44:27,050
We look forward to it, but, you know, some appropriate considerations of the unintended consequence of how this will hit this neighborhood is what we ask for.

2140
02:44:27,570 --> 02:44:28,790
All right, thank you.

2141
02:44:29,130 --> 02:44:29,610
Thank you.

2142
02:44:31,830 --> 02:44:32,490
One more speaker?

2143
02:44:33,090 --> 02:44:33,230
All

2144
02:44:40,660 --> 02:44:40,720
right.

2145
02:44:40,780 --> 02:44:43,700
I know you guys have had a long night, so I'll try to be pretty quick.

2146
02:44:44,160 --> 02:44:45,660
Let me put this on the north side.

2147
02:44:45,740 --> 02:44:46,980
Everybody's had the same problem, got it.

2148
02:44:48,440 --> 02:44:51,980
So I represent a few other neighbors that I've been asked to speak.

2149
02:44:52,120 --> 02:44:53,060
My name is Zach Jadamzik.

2150
02:44:53,140 --> 02:44:56,560
I've been a long-time owner of the property on Supply Street.

2151
02:44:57,960 --> 02:44:59,160
You probably know me from the news.

2152
02:45:00,820 --> 02:45:07,920
I've been interviewed multiple times by the Indie Star, WTHR, all the news outlets. I love what we're doing here in Carmel.

2153
02:45:08,820 --> 02:45:13,560
Before we get ahead of ourselves, I think that's what I want to pause here. Tonight we're asking about a rezoning.

2154
02:45:14,040 --> 02:45:18,400
They're talking about townhomes and what it looks like and colors and variances and all that stuff.

2155
02:45:19,620 --> 02:45:26,880
What I want to point out is if you flip this to C2, it goes to these fine folks who have done a lovely job,

2156
02:45:26,880 --> 02:45:28,620
But then we don't have a partnership.

2157
02:45:29,140 --> 02:45:30,580
It goes to them and it's gone.

2158
02:45:30,940 --> 02:45:32,020
We don't get to re-vote.

2159
02:45:32,200 --> 02:45:34,100
We don't get to talk about these considerations.

2160
02:45:34,860 --> 02:45:36,660
It says a partnership for tomorrow.

2161
02:45:37,220 --> 02:45:41,500
That's what I'm asking for, is a partnership and the ability to have a say in what's going

2162
02:45:41,500 --> 02:45:42,740
to happen to this property.

2163
02:45:43,260 --> 02:45:48,780
If you vote to flip it to C2 tonight or tomorrow, it goes to Mr. Mateski and it's

2164
02:45:48,780 --> 02:45:49,560
gone and it's done.

2165
02:45:49,800 --> 02:45:50,500
We know that.

2166
02:45:51,020 --> 02:45:51,420
We do.

2167
02:45:51,740 --> 02:45:52,500
We've seen it happen.

2168
02:45:52,640 --> 02:45:54,360
And that's fine to redevelop.

2169
02:45:54,660 --> 02:45:55,720
We want a partnership.

2170
02:45:55,720 --> 02:46:00,240
So can we start at step one not talking about what color they are what the elevation is?

2171
02:46:00,280 --> 02:46:06,800
Can we just start at step one? What is the plan? They've even said this is all theoretical what you guys have seen townhomes

2172
02:46:06,800 --> 02:46:12,140
What are you actually voting on you don't know? I don't know you don't know that's where we're at

2173
02:46:12,140 --> 02:46:16,980
This is our first time as a public audience to even talk about it, right?

2174
02:46:17,280 --> 02:46:21,420
You guys voted to flip it over. I didn't get notice at all

2175
02:46:21,420 --> 02:46:24,680
this is my first time I get to talk to you guys and create that partnership.

2176
02:46:25,180 --> 02:46:29,860
This overlay here was designed, as you guys talked about, this is a planned city.

2177
02:46:30,760 --> 02:46:35,480
Those that came before you planned this city, this is completely changing that plan.

2178
02:46:36,420 --> 02:46:40,160
These were supposed to be single story homes, these were supposed to be bungalow-type communities.

2179
02:46:40,840 --> 02:46:42,640
We're not fighting against 1933.

2180
02:46:43,220 --> 02:46:44,120
Nobody wants to do that.

2181
02:46:44,220 --> 02:46:44,940
We want the development.

2182
02:46:45,160 --> 02:46:45,820
I want the development.

2183
02:46:45,980 --> 02:46:47,220
It only helps my property value.

2184
02:46:47,220 --> 02:46:52,440
What we're asking for is, again, a partnership, and this isn't a partnership, kicking it over

2185
02:46:52,440 --> 02:46:54,860
to C2, letting them just do what they're going to do.

2186
02:46:55,380 --> 02:46:57,880
You guys don't know what you're voting on, no offense, you don't.

2187
02:46:58,580 --> 02:47:02,100
I even called a couple of you, and you didn't know what you were voting on yesterday.

2188
02:47:02,740 --> 02:47:07,200
So we're voting on things that we don't understand, unintended consequences.

2189
02:47:07,520 --> 02:47:08,400
That's a great point.

2190
02:47:09,060 --> 02:47:10,080
We have no clue.

2191
02:47:10,500 --> 02:47:12,200
They could do whatever they want with this property.

2192
02:47:13,000 --> 02:47:16,140
And I just don't think it's what's best for the city.

2193
02:47:16,740 --> 02:47:18,940
Josh had a great phrase, I wish I could say it.

2194
02:47:19,120 --> 02:47:22,880
I just don't think this is the right time or the right place to do this type of development

2195
02:47:23,660 --> 02:47:27,500
or just magically flip it to C2 and then they get to do whatever they want.

2196
02:47:28,040 --> 02:47:31,260
Because that's really what we're talking about, the rezoning of it.

2197
02:47:31,520 --> 02:47:35,920
We can get to the next steps, but if you flip it to C2, there are no more steps.

2198
02:47:36,300 --> 02:47:39,040
While you guys said there are, there are not for us.

2199
02:47:39,180 --> 02:47:39,940
There's no partnership.

2200
02:47:40,240 --> 02:47:41,100
There's no public input.

2201
02:47:41,560 --> 02:47:43,120
It just kind of goes and gets done.

2202
02:47:43,640 --> 02:47:44,380
And that's my piece.

2203
02:47:46,960 --> 02:47:47,580
Thank you.

2204
02:47:48,320 --> 02:47:51,320
Is there anyone else who wishes to speak tonight on this petition?

2205
02:47:55,970 --> 02:47:58,010
Then Adrian, if you'd care to respond.

2206
02:48:02,290 --> 02:48:06,390
So Henry, in what capacity are you speaking tonight?

2207
02:48:06,630 --> 02:48:07,210
Hi, Mr. President.

2208
02:48:07,450 --> 02:48:11,310
I just, I wanted to make myself available if the commission has any questions.

2209
02:48:11,550 --> 02:48:12,310
That's why I'm here tonight.

2210
02:48:12,550 --> 02:48:12,870
Thank you.

2211
02:48:13,390 --> 02:48:15,910
So Adrian, you have a chance to respond to the comments we've just heard?

2212
02:48:15,910 --> 02:48:16,810
There

2213
02:48:24,750 --> 02:48:33,330
are a lot of site plan concerns and things that were addressed site plan-wise were

2214
02:48:33,330 --> 02:48:42,470
simply not to that level of design yet, however it is good to bring those things up early

2215
02:48:42,470 --> 02:48:45,590
in the process before things are designed.

2216
02:48:46,510 --> 02:48:52,030
There were a couple, there was mention of parking restrictions and that sort of thing.

2217
02:48:52,030 --> 02:48:59,850
Those are not part of this site, however, that would be a separate ordinance that would

2218
02:48:59,850 --> 02:49:11,850
be under the city councils and city code purview rather than a zoning than this rezone issue.

2219
02:49:11,850 --> 02:49:11,950
you.

2220
02:49:15,490 --> 02:49:21,190
Speaking from DOCS, I just

2221
02:49:23,330 --> 02:49:30,810
had the UDO here. My paper hit the screen. It's fine. Never

2222
02:49:30,810 --> 02:49:39,550
mind. We'll just close this. Speaking from DOCS, we worked very closely with the redevelopment

2223
02:49:39,550 --> 02:49:46,150
department in project reviews. We have received these comments. We know the redevelopment department

2224
02:49:46,150 --> 02:49:53,010
has received these comments and we will continue to relay those comments if they haven't already

2225
02:49:53,010 --> 02:49:59,970
received them for to work with the design of this project.

2226
02:50:04,750 --> 02:50:06,190
It's simply too early.

2227
02:50:06,190 --> 02:50:14,010
We know that most C2 re-zones we don't have any information whatsoever in this particular instance.

2228
02:50:14,190 --> 02:50:18,350
We know that the City Council has authorized the purchase of that entire block.

2229
02:50:18,750 --> 02:50:28,310
So we know that that block would be developed simultaneously.

2230
02:50:29,910 --> 02:50:36,210
So the purpose of the rezone is to have the entire block go through one zoning and one

2231
02:50:36,210 --> 02:50:36,750
process.

2232
02:50:36,930 --> 02:50:42,150
Instead of having half the block go through one process and half of the block go through

2233
02:50:42,150 --> 02:50:42,930
another process.

2234
02:50:44,430 --> 02:50:50,290
And that's the genesis of many of the C2 projects.

2235
02:50:50,410 --> 02:50:56,070
It just happens in this case that part of the block already is zoned to C2.

2236
02:50:56,070 --> 02:51:06,370
So it's simply not designed yet, but the earlier, the better to get these kinds of comments on the record.

2237
02:51:12,150 --> 02:51:18,010
Thank you. Is there a department report beyond 8-inch presentation? Okay, very good.

2238
02:51:18,730 --> 02:51:21,670
Then I will close the public hearing at 9.52.

2239
02:51:27,930 --> 02:51:29,130
8.52, excuse me.

2240
02:51:37,180 --> 02:51:39,260
Discussion from the commission.

2241
02:51:44,480 --> 02:51:44,960
Start with Sue.

2242
02:51:44,960 --> 02:51:45,940
Well,

2243
02:51:48,760 --> 02:51:52,740
you know, I just want to thank the people that came tonight and spoke because we've

2244
02:51:52,740 --> 02:51:59,660
had a lot of C2 re-zones over the years and we, this is a re-zone.

2245
02:52:00,140 --> 02:52:07,720
And so the things that you've seen tonight and other in legacy or flora, those are

2246
02:52:07,720 --> 02:52:14,160
planning commission projects where we can look at loading docks and dumpsters and

2247
02:52:14,160 --> 02:52:23,120
traffic and lighting and the things that fall. But we're only asked to request by the

2248
02:52:23,120 --> 02:52:28,420
Department to rezone this to C2. I have never had anybody in my years, though, come

2249
02:52:28,420 --> 02:52:35,020
and express ahead of time like this, concerns. And I think that's great. And I would

2250
02:52:35,020 --> 02:52:40,420
like to hear from the Redevelopment Commission on what, how people can participate

2251
02:52:40,420 --> 02:52:42,440
in this process if it gets resolved.

2252
02:52:42,440 --> 02:52:43,460
Thank

2253
02:52:53,280 --> 02:52:56,380
you so much for that question. Again, Henry Mosteski, Redevelopment Director.

2254
02:52:59,000 --> 02:53:06,240
We took this project to City Council asking them the foundational question of whether they approve a project like this.

2255
02:53:06,620 --> 02:53:11,980
This is a holistic project. We can't pick and choose different parts of it.

2256
02:53:11,980 --> 02:53:22,300
We have office in 1933 facing range line, and to transition over to the neighborhood,

2257
02:53:22,840 --> 02:53:26,080
we have fore sale residential, cross from fore sale residential.

2258
02:53:30,200 --> 02:53:35,140
I know that the gentleman that spoke earlier said a statement like, well, once at C2, nothing

2259
02:53:35,140 --> 02:53:35,760
can be done.

2260
02:53:36,580 --> 02:53:42,880
Well, first, the Redevelopment Commission represented to City Council that the fore sale product

2261
02:53:42,880 --> 02:53:48,220
would it be the three-and-a-half story, have that four-story element? That was a representation

2262
02:53:48,220 --> 02:53:51,280
that was made. So it's not like we're going to depart from that.

2263
02:53:53,570 --> 02:53:57,290
But once if this commission

2264
02:53:57,290 --> 02:54:03,550
allows it and City Council agrees and it gets re-zoned, there's a per the UDO, a CRC

2265
02:54:03,550 --> 02:54:09,710
Architectural Review Committee. That's where we work with the architects to really bring

2266
02:54:09,710 --> 02:54:18,550
as great a product as possible. I think you'll oftentimes find that C-Zoning projects have

2267
02:54:19,190 --> 02:54:23,490
architecture or materials that are really high level. So we want to continue that.

2268
02:54:24,450 --> 02:54:30,510
After CRC architectural approval, which truly works as almost like a TAC process, that's

2269
02:54:30,510 --> 02:54:35,850
a process where internally all directors from all the departments all participate

2270
02:54:35,850 --> 02:54:41,450
And even getting it to the stage where it can be filed with the city and go through the ADLS.

2271
02:54:41,650 --> 02:54:45,930
So we almost have like an additional architecture review process before it's even filed with the city.

2272
02:54:47,130 --> 02:54:51,470
Then projects are obviously filed with project docs with the Department of Community Services.

2273
02:54:51,710 --> 02:54:53,530
It goes through the full ADLS process.

2274
02:54:53,950 --> 02:54:58,390
It obviously meets state statute in terms of the public hearings that need to take place.

2275
02:54:58,710 --> 02:55:01,630
That happens in front of Michael Hallbaugh as a hearing officer.

2276
02:55:02,950 --> 02:55:08,010
And people come to those meetings, people voice their concerns, and we adjust.

2277
02:55:08,890 --> 02:55:12,670
So I think there's a lot of opportunity for that kind of conversation.

2278
02:55:13,770 --> 02:55:19,630
But it's important to note that the City Council approved this project knowing there was going to be a fourth story element on the

2279
02:55:19,630 --> 02:55:27,190
for sale component facing the additional residential across the street residential housing, frankly at first and first.

2280
02:55:27,190 --> 02:55:32,310
And if you walk around to some of the other first and firsts that we have in our central

2281
02:55:32,310 --> 02:55:34,550
core, right, there's four of these.

2282
02:55:35,250 --> 02:55:37,310
They have five story projects on them.

2283
02:55:37,390 --> 02:55:38,370
They're in the middle of a city.

2284
02:55:39,050 --> 02:55:41,070
This is the center of our city.

2285
02:55:42,890 --> 02:55:50,390
And it makes sense that development follows what we've all been working towards in our

2286
02:55:50,390 --> 02:55:50,910
central core.

2287
02:55:53,390 --> 02:56:00,250
And I understand that, but when just the event you see here tonight, the Planning Commission,

2288
02:56:01,110 --> 02:56:07,750
when does a resident have an opportunity to talk to the Redevelopment Commission and express

2289
02:56:07,750 --> 02:56:10,810
their concerns on lighting in their house and parking?

2290
02:56:10,930 --> 02:56:15,910
I just want to know, is there any opportunity, and if so, make it available to these people

2291
02:56:15,910 --> 02:56:17,150
tonight and let them know.

2292
02:56:19,480 --> 02:56:23,840
Nothing gets approved without ADLS approval, without DOCS approval.

2293
02:56:24,260 --> 02:56:28,880
Every communication to the city that each of you and I have received all goes into the log file,

2294
02:56:29,040 --> 02:56:35,080
all goes into the file that Director Hallbott discusses when it goes through DOCS approval.

2295
02:56:35,740 --> 02:56:37,660
I mean, all that continues to be the case.

2296
02:56:40,320 --> 02:56:44,460
So once these things are publicly noticed, as they're required to be by state statute,

2297
02:56:44,700 --> 02:56:47,660
there's notice made, there's notice in the paper, people get notices,

2298
02:56:47,660 --> 02:56:51,300
There's a sign that goes up, all that, all those are public meetings.

2299
02:56:51,540 --> 02:56:57,700
They just, you know, it's a team effort between DOCS and CRC, those in C2 zoning.

2300
02:56:59,340 --> 02:57:01,040
And please add anything.

2301
02:57:02,680 --> 02:57:10,700
If I could just add, there isn't a set schedule for the C2 public hearings that go before

2302
02:57:10,700 --> 02:57:13,100
Mike as the Plaint Commission hearing officer.

2303
02:57:13,100 --> 02:57:19,760
officer. It really happens on a project by project basis since we don't have a project

2304
02:57:19,760 --> 02:57:29,280
all the time. And we work through details and try to do the same thing that we do here

2305
02:57:29,280 --> 02:57:35,280
is work through all the details of the project, making sure it meets all the requirements

2306
02:57:35,280 --> 02:57:43,240
of the UDO and then let them have the Plaint Commission Hearing Officer public meeting,

2307
02:57:44,040 --> 02:57:51,200
which will be, as Henry said, publicly noticed in all three manners that is still required

2308
02:57:51,200 --> 02:57:54,820
or is required the same as it is for your body here.

2309
02:57:55,820 --> 02:58:01,420
Notice in the paper 21 days in advance, sign on the property 21 days in advance

2310
02:58:01,420 --> 02:58:06,020
and letters to all the adjoining neighbors 21 days in advance.

2311
02:58:06,600 --> 02:58:10,420
So all the same things, it's just not on a set schedule.

2312
02:58:11,180 --> 02:58:13,420
Do they, but then when they get the letters,

2313
02:58:13,520 --> 02:58:15,220
do they have an opportunity to come in and speak?

2314
02:58:16,100 --> 02:58:16,360
Yes.

2315
02:58:16,760 --> 02:58:17,640
Okay, that's what I was saying.

2316
02:58:17,640 --> 02:58:21,520
With me, they can talk to me as a representative

2317
02:58:21,520 --> 02:58:24,440
for the department, and I work with the CRC.

2318
02:58:24,580 --> 02:58:25,940
They can talk with the CRC.

2319
02:58:26,460 --> 02:58:27,660
But it's not my public hearing.

2320
02:58:28,000 --> 02:58:29,540
There's no public hearing for the public.

2321
02:58:29,540 --> 02:58:31,120
No, no, it is a public hearing.

2322
02:58:31,660 --> 02:58:32,620
Okay, for them to speak.

2323
02:58:32,800 --> 02:58:34,320
I'm sorry then, I misunderstood you.

2324
02:58:34,320 --> 02:58:37,980
So they can talk to me about their concerns,

2325
02:58:38,080 --> 02:58:41,880
and I can work through those concerns with the architects

2326
02:58:41,880 --> 02:58:45,660
and the developers for them ahead of the public hearing,

2327
02:58:45,700 --> 02:58:46,840
that's what I was trying to say.

2328
02:58:47,220 --> 02:58:50,400
And then the public hearing is just like this,

2329
02:58:50,540 --> 02:58:53,080
but it's held before a hearing officer,

2330
02:58:53,340 --> 02:58:54,720
and the hearing officer is Mike.

2331
02:58:55,300 --> 02:58:58,380
And that meeting happens over in the caucus rooms.

2332
02:58:58,860 --> 02:59:03,200
And what I was saying is it doesn't happen on a regular schedule like this meeting does

2333
02:59:04,140 --> 02:59:07,400
because they come as needed when there are projects.

2334
02:59:07,720 --> 02:59:12,640
But you still have 21 days prior to know about it.

2335
02:59:12,700 --> 02:59:13,060
That's fine.

2336
02:59:13,300 --> 02:59:16,760
I just wanted to clarify because of statements that were made tonight that they would have

2337
02:59:16,760 --> 02:59:18,880
no opportunity to add any input.

2338
02:59:19,280 --> 02:59:23,720
And I just wanted to clarify that and find out if that was true so there's no

2339
02:59:23,720 --> 02:59:24,060
misconception.

2340
02:59:24,600 --> 02:59:24,780
Right.

2341
02:59:24,820 --> 02:59:26,060
So thank you that they can speak.

2342
02:59:26,440 --> 02:59:26,660
Okay.

2343
02:59:26,660 --> 02:59:27,060
Thank

2344
02:59:29,180 --> 02:59:31,620
you, Sue, because it's an important point.

2345
02:59:33,320 --> 02:59:33,920
Christine?

2346
02:59:34,780 --> 02:59:35,780
I have a question.

2347
02:59:36,640 --> 02:59:43,100
So for the maximum height requirements once it's rezoned to C2, it'd be 75 feet for the primary building,

2348
02:59:43,140 --> 02:59:49,880
but it's 35 feet for a building that's adjacent to residential in the C2 rezoning.

2349
02:59:50,400 --> 02:59:52,120
As far as under the – I'm correct, right?

2350
02:59:53,100 --> 02:59:53,420
Yes.

2351
02:59:53,420 --> 02:59:59,500
So these townhomes, I'm hearing four stories and I'm also hearing that they're approved, but I'm hearing

2352
03:00:00,000 --> 03:00:08,760
It's just a concept. Are you going to be staying within that 35 feet maximum, or is there an expectation that a variance is going to be sought?

2353
03:00:11,250 --> 03:00:20,490
I know that they will have a fourth story element because they haven't been designed. It hasn't gone through, which is not there yet.

2354
03:00:24,260 --> 03:00:30,420
So if it did end up being more than 35 feet, you'd have to get a variance through the BZA, is that correct?

2355
03:00:30,420 --> 03:00:31,540
I'd

2356
03:00:33,780 --> 03:00:37,760
have to double check all that. If there is a variance required, then yes.

2357
03:00:38,260 --> 03:00:38,380
Okay.

2358
03:00:39,080 --> 03:00:42,160
Adrian, does the petitioner want to speak to that? Please.

2359
03:00:45,120 --> 03:00:55,560
Yes. If the standards of the C2 zoning are not met, then as part of the UDO, the variance

2360
03:00:55,560 --> 03:01:00,280
process would be the process to seek relief from those standards.

2361
03:01:00,280 --> 03:01:01,320
And

2362
03:01:06,820 --> 03:01:12,880
is it safe to assume that as those of us who wish to continue to follow this forward

2363
03:01:13,480 --> 03:01:19,020
that our input would be welcomed by the Department and the hearing officer just as any input

2364
03:01:19,020 --> 03:01:20,200
from members of the public?

2365
03:01:20,940 --> 03:01:21,500
Yes.

2366
03:01:21,800 --> 03:01:22,100
Absolutely.

2367
03:01:23,040 --> 03:01:23,820
Thank you.

2368
03:01:24,560 --> 03:01:32,380
Mr. President, although this has been the most fun 17 hours of my life, try my best

2369
03:01:32,380 --> 03:01:34,160
not to make this too long-winded.

2370
03:01:37,490 --> 03:01:40,390
I guess, you know, I'm hearing that this is like one

2371
03:01:40,390 --> 03:01:47,030
big thing, but then, you know, when I'm seeing these outlines laid over an image, it appears

2372
03:01:47,030 --> 03:01:52,730
to be too wildly due to different things separated by a sea of asphalt.

2373
03:01:55,630 --> 03:01:56,390
I'm looking

2374
03:01:56,390 --> 03:02:04,030
looking at this box in red as the transition zone between C2 and the historic district

2375
03:02:04,030 --> 03:02:14,050
and the overlay, you know, I guess I don't understand why we can't develop this second

2376
03:02:14,050 --> 03:02:16,130
block just the

2377
03:02:18,500 --> 03:02:23,280
way we'd normally do it through this commission instead of, I'll do respect

2378
03:02:23,280 --> 03:02:29,760
direct to my friend, Mr. Henry, who does amazing work in this community. And I heard staff

2379
03:02:30,280 --> 03:02:35,320
say and I heard the director, I saw the director nod his head about the hearing officer and

2380
03:02:36,000 --> 03:02:36,840
open door.

2381
03:02:41,350 --> 03:02:45,450
I just guess I'd like to see the second block brought into the light and

2382
03:02:46,650 --> 03:02:51,550
see it go through the regular process. So I'm kind of, I'm just, I'm not feeling

2383
03:02:51,550 --> 03:02:51,950
it tonight.

2384
03:02:51,950 --> 03:02:52,970
Are

2385
03:03:09,000 --> 03:03:11,080
there other comments or questions for the petitioner?

2386
03:03:20,350 --> 03:03:31,710
So again, to clarify Sue's line of understanding, the process for C2, as we move beyond once

2387
03:03:31,710 --> 03:03:37,670
the rezoning is granted, if it's granted, the approval process, the oversight process

2388
03:03:37,670 --> 03:03:45,170
for what eventually is developed on that C2 site is the same as what comes before

2389
03:03:45,170 --> 03:03:51,910
this body except that the deciding body in the case of a C2 is a body of one, the director

2390
03:03:51,910 --> 03:03:54,770
of the Department of Community Services instead of a body of nine.

2391
03:03:58,430 --> 03:03:59,150
That is correct.

2392
03:03:59,530 --> 03:03:59,630
Okay.

2393
03:03:59,750 --> 03:04:01,070
Mike wants to speak more.

2394
03:04:01,430 --> 03:04:02,550
I think you could explain it.

2395
03:04:02,910 --> 03:04:03,270
Yeah, Mike.

2396
03:04:03,910 --> 03:04:10,070
I would, I'd like to go back to Sue's question because even though it's been said kind

2397
03:04:10,070 --> 03:04:15,770
of over and over tonight, the feedback that we heard tonight and that we've

2398
03:04:15,770 --> 03:04:19,330
seen in the emails is all extremely helpful

2399
03:04:19,330 --> 03:04:22,110
for a project that's not yet been designed.

2400
03:04:22,950 --> 03:04:27,970
Clearly, there's a concept and that concept is tied to the economics of pulling off

2401
03:04:28,530 --> 03:04:32,910
a mixed-use project, especially on expensive real estate

2402
03:04:33,550 --> 03:04:36,950
that's split-zoned in the middle of downtown.

2403
03:04:38,070 --> 03:04:42,950
And the request to zone at C2 is because this is a redevelopment project.

2404
03:04:42,950 --> 03:04:51,110
You know, and we've done a number of C2 projects, you know, and the process is virtually the

2405
03:04:51,110 --> 03:04:53,890
same, but with each project, it gets better.

2406
03:04:54,090 --> 03:05:00,670
I think it gets better as we learn how to do redevelopment, we learn how to balance

2407
03:05:01,270 --> 03:05:10,870
public input with the needs of the development, with the economics and all that, but with

2408
03:05:10,870 --> 03:05:16,210
an eye on the highest quality project that we can get. And I feel like the projects that

2409
03:05:16,210 --> 03:05:27,440
we've seen approved and built are extremely high quality and are part of what gives Carmel

2410
03:05:27,440 --> 03:05:34,840
the good consideration that we do as a place to live and as downtown has come alive.

2411
03:05:39,420 --> 03:05:40,140
And

2412
03:05:40,140 --> 03:05:48,640
Henry alluded to, I mean, that is much more refined today, and in part with the help of

2413
03:05:48,640 --> 03:05:56,200
legal counsel, it's much more publicly oriented than it had been previously as well.

2414
03:05:56,500 --> 03:06:04,960
But I would be happy to answer any other questions, but I do think that the consideration

2415
03:06:04,960 --> 03:06:09,640
of the public input tonight will be directly built into the project.

2416
03:06:10,080 --> 03:06:13,880
And a lot of the same eyes that bring you projects

2417
03:06:13,880 --> 03:06:18,840
are the eyes that help refine the redevelopment projects.

2418
03:06:19,140 --> 03:06:21,960
I mean, Rachel is, she is embedded in redevelopment

2419
03:06:21,960 --> 03:06:26,620
and she pays attention to dumpster and dumpster locations

2420
03:06:26,620 --> 03:06:29,000
and screening and landscaping.

2421
03:06:29,120 --> 03:06:31,220
And Darren Mindham is involved in the landscaping.

2422
03:06:31,220 --> 03:06:38,880
all those things, these projects get the same attention even though the development standards

2423
03:06:38,880 --> 03:06:45,060
are not quite as robust as they are in suburban areas. But this is downtown and it's intended

2424
03:06:45,060 --> 03:06:52,460
to have an urban design quality to it. It's not suburban quality design. And I'd also like to

2425
03:06:52,460 --> 03:06:58,540
point out that the streets are public. First Street is public and if no parking is going

2426
03:06:58,540 --> 03:07:03,660
going to occur on those streets, it's going to be through result of either the council

2427
03:07:04,220 --> 03:07:12,180
or the Board of Works posting no parking. It can't be something that we impose. And we

2428
03:07:12,180 --> 03:07:18,380
just had to amend a PUD because there's provisions for no parking. And that's not our job.

2429
03:07:18,600 --> 03:07:23,300
That's not the department's job. That's either the police department or the city engineer.

2430
03:07:23,300 --> 03:07:26,480
But we'll also take all those things into consideration.

2431
03:07:27,260 --> 03:07:30,100
And the other part is that these are all works in progress.

2432
03:07:30,780 --> 03:07:37,040
And, you know, as details as we find that things maybe aren't working,

2433
03:07:37,340 --> 03:07:41,200
we're trying to improve those to over time.

2434
03:07:41,500 --> 03:07:45,100
And so, you know, we'll work on lighting and we'll make sure it's right

2435
03:07:45,100 --> 03:07:47,640
and we'll continue to work with them either through code enforcement

2436
03:07:47,640 --> 03:07:54,180
or doubling back on the approved plan to make sure that what was approved is what gets built.

2437
03:07:58,040 --> 03:08:01,680
Mike or Adrian, I appreciate that one of the challenges of this situation

2438
03:08:01,680 --> 03:08:09,740
is that we have half of a prospective development site already zone C2 and need the other half.

2439
03:08:10,100 --> 03:08:19,480
And I understand and fully appreciate that users and private developers need a high level of certainty

2440
03:08:19,480 --> 03:08:25,760
as they pursue a project and every day as a project moves along, they have to ask themselves

2441
03:08:25,760 --> 03:08:32,020
every day is a go or no go decision for them. So the lack of certainty about this full block site

2442
03:08:32,020 --> 03:08:35,420
is a vulnerability right now and I understand that.

2443
03:08:35,960 --> 03:08:38,920
We heard several comments about parking this evening.

2444
03:08:40,680 --> 03:08:46,540
Understanding that nothing is certain yet, can you speak to us at all tonight about

2445
03:08:46,540 --> 03:08:52,920
the extent to which parking would be provided within this city block project.

2446
03:08:56,000 --> 03:09:00,880
Or I guess more to the point, what degree of off-site parking would would, what

2447
03:09:00,880 --> 03:09:05,140
dependence on off-site parking would there be for this project as currently

2448
03:09:05,140 --> 03:09:11,120
contemplated? I'm going to take a stab at what I know up to this point and if

2449
03:09:11,120 --> 03:09:19,340
Henry needs to, he can set me straight, but the way I understand it is that the

2450
03:09:21,840 --> 03:09:22,500
concept

2451
03:09:22,500 --> 03:09:26,620
that we saw tonight parks itself.

2452
03:09:28,670 --> 03:09:32,550
Clearly with restaurant activity and I think the unintended

2453
03:09:32,550 --> 03:09:38,130
consequences that were brought up tonight are probably at least potentially real and

2454
03:09:38,130 --> 03:09:48,840
And possibly the Lions Club is an option there, but my house isn't on this map, but I just

2455
03:09:48,840 --> 03:09:56,340
live a couple of houses down, sort of, for Mr. Watkins, and I mean I know how the Lions

2456
03:09:56,340 --> 03:10:01,780
Club a lot gets used, and some nights it's full, and some nights it's not.

2457
03:10:02,040 --> 03:10:09,280
And so I don't think that they can comfortably rely on that as an option without figuring

2458
03:10:09,280 --> 03:10:15,360
out a way to reserve some spots and that's always a possibility, but that will have to

2459
03:10:15,360 --> 03:10:23,320
come with some sort of a public process because it is, I mean, it's our lot and the Lions

2460
03:10:23,320 --> 03:10:26,800
Club lot and I don't think that they can just come in and take over.

2461
03:10:27,560 --> 03:10:34,460
And if there's a problem with street parking, I mean, we have street parking all through

2462
03:10:35,560 --> 03:10:42,160
through downtown, through Old Town now, and I mean, that's what we're having to learn

2463
03:10:42,160 --> 03:10:42,980
to deal with that.

2464
03:10:43,240 --> 03:10:48,840
In some of the parts of downtown that maybe aren't or haven't been as popular, clearly

2465
03:10:49,800 --> 03:10:55,640
this southeast quadrant has not seen the level of investment that the other quadrants have,

2466
03:10:55,720 --> 03:10:56,380
but here we are.

2467
03:10:57,000 --> 03:11:00,440
And I think that parking is going to be an issue.

2468
03:11:01,780 --> 03:11:04,460
There's public parking right across the street to the north.

2469
03:11:05,600 --> 03:11:08,580
First in Maine, there's going to be a public parking garage,

2470
03:11:09,260 --> 03:11:11,840
the Indiana Design Center, there's underground parking,

2471
03:11:12,280 --> 03:11:15,180
and the potential for that is available in the evenings.

2472
03:11:15,860 --> 03:11:17,520
There's clearly a possibility as well.

2473
03:11:17,720 --> 03:11:21,340
I think that the city has done a very good job of building

2474
03:11:21,880 --> 03:11:27,160
car parking into downtown and bike parking into downtown.

2475
03:11:27,160 --> 03:11:34,940
And, you know, we're seeing more and more and more bicycle parking which is helping to take a little bit of the pressure off car parking too.

2476
03:11:35,840 --> 03:11:42,340
And I think that's that type of development and those options are going to continue to evolve and improve.

2477
03:11:44,770 --> 03:11:53,430
Thank you. That's helpful. And I appreciate you reminding me of what may be the best kept secret in downtown parking, which is the Indiana Design Center garage.

2478
03:11:54,490 --> 03:11:54,850
Christine?

2479
03:11:56,010 --> 03:11:59,310
two things one is you know we've heard a lot of really specific requests are

2480
03:11:59,310 --> 03:12:04,950
these things that you can today go ahead and say yes we can do landscaping we

2481
03:12:04,950 --> 03:12:07,690
can push the setbacks on the townhomes are there are there any things that you've

2482
03:12:07,690 --> 03:12:14,250
heard today that you think for sure you could incorporate into or is it

2483
03:12:14,250 --> 03:12:17,750
really just so preliminary you just don't know yeah I mean it I'm not

2484
03:12:17,750 --> 03:12:23,930
really involved in these and one of the things that I can tell you is that

2485
03:12:23,930 --> 03:12:33,770
there's a very healthy tension between planning opinion and redevelopment opinion that I think

2486
03:12:33,770 --> 03:12:38,850
helps make the projects better. I mean, we're pushing them on things that we're used to

2487
03:12:38,850 --> 03:12:44,550
hearing and the sensitivities that we think are important that I think you would all

2488
03:12:44,550 --> 03:12:53,270
appreciate that sometimes aren't looked upon the same way by redevelopment. And I think

2489
03:12:53,270 --> 03:13:01,590
And the result of that is that we end up both agreeing to disagree or agreeing to agree.

2490
03:13:02,010 --> 03:13:03,950
I mean, I think it helps.

2491
03:13:08,060 --> 03:13:13,880
I would like to think that we could at least kind of respect the general parameters of

2492
03:13:13,880 --> 03:13:19,420
the overlay zone along first, I mean, as applies to townhomes.

2493
03:13:19,420 --> 03:13:24,960
I mean, clearly, the zoning today and the old town overlay

2494
03:13:24,960 --> 03:13:28,100
didn't necessarily contemplate attached residential.

2495
03:13:28,340 --> 03:13:32,740
It was all small lot, smaller homes on narrow lots.

2496
03:13:35,600 --> 03:13:42,060
In this context, these are apartments

2497
03:13:42,060 --> 03:13:43,520
that share one large lot.

2498
03:13:44,600 --> 03:13:48,140
Just to the south of that, Mr. Scott is gonna build

2499
03:13:48,140 --> 03:13:54,060
an extremely large house on at least two lots, a large home on multiple lots.

2500
03:13:54,180 --> 03:13:57,640
Mr. Thomas has done the same thing, adjacent that to the south.

2501
03:13:58,100 --> 03:13:59,920
The general

2502
03:14:02,290 --> 03:14:08,810
design consideration that was supposed to be with the old town overlay

2503
03:14:08,810 --> 03:14:11,430
hasn't really necessarily been respected in this area.

2504
03:14:11,610 --> 03:14:15,490
Clearly, there's nice smaller homes on smaller lots.

2505
03:14:16,190 --> 03:14:22,270
for the further south you go, but there's also larger homes on smaller lots that are

2506
03:14:22,270 --> 03:14:28,410
consistent with what has also occurred in the rest of Old Town. I mean, that in this

2507
03:14:28,410 --> 03:14:35,490
area clearly has really good momentum. I think that architecturally and spatially those town

2508
03:14:35,490 --> 03:14:41,310
homes can be designed to be respectful. And I think that that orientation, the part

2509
03:14:41,310 --> 03:14:47,390
of the orientation, that's probably something that Dan Moriarty could talk about right now.

2510
03:14:48,050 --> 03:14:53,790
But it all seems practical and realistic to me.

2511
03:14:57,000 --> 03:14:59,920
Mike, I'm glad you're up there because when

2512
03:15:00,000 --> 03:15:01,100
I'm going to ask you a couple of things.

2513
03:15:03,400 --> 03:15:07,340
It seems like if I'm hearing the will of what

2514
03:15:07,340 --> 03:15:14,080
the plan commission is wanting to do, or may perhaps not wanting to do, but the point that

2515
03:15:14,080 --> 03:15:22,420
they want to get at, this is the reason, right? I mean, I just, if there's some saying something

2516
03:15:22,420 --> 03:15:29,360
wrong interrupt me and stop and if this was not something that the CDC was was

2517
03:15:29,360 --> 03:15:35,800
involved in if this was was a private developer coming in to rezone it there's

2518
03:15:35,800 --> 03:15:42,040
no obligation on that individuals part to divulge what the development plan is

2519
03:15:42,040 --> 03:15:48,780
going to be at the rezone stage is that am I right to that point for a C

2520
03:15:49,320 --> 03:15:53,080
No, no, no. If it was a private developer who came in.

2521
03:15:54,140 --> 03:15:56,920
It's not been our practice to allow that.

2522
03:15:57,100 --> 03:16:01,440
I mean, generally we want to see a little bit more than just a request.

2523
03:16:01,740 --> 03:16:04,780
Yeah, you may want to see a little bit more of a request,

2524
03:16:04,940 --> 03:16:10,120
but I can remember a time when there was a developer who came in and wanted to,

2525
03:16:10,260 --> 03:16:12,380
and we rezoned a piece of property.

2526
03:16:12,660 --> 03:16:13,960
We wanted to know what it was.

2527
03:16:14,620 --> 03:16:22,620
because he smartly said I don't need to tell you that, I just, we take the rezone and whatever

2528
03:16:22,620 --> 03:16:28,100
uses are allowed in that rezone we're allowed to build and okay, and the next thing I knew

2529
03:16:28,100 --> 03:16:34,880
we had a Meyer sitting, you know, where it is now, but his point was well taken that

2530
03:16:34,880 --> 03:16:38,040
at least that time, unless things have changed before the first time I sat on the Plan

2531
03:16:38,040 --> 03:16:42,780
Commission this time, that nothing needs to be, you know, you don't have to give

2532
03:16:42,780 --> 03:16:43,800
of a development plan.

2533
03:16:44,910 --> 03:16:47,880
When that property across from Kensington came in,

2534
03:16:48,460 --> 03:16:50,460
I remember quizzing Adrian on that

2535
03:16:50,460 --> 03:16:53,140
and nothing was forthcoming.

2536
03:16:53,320 --> 03:16:58,700
But my point of all this is, is that it doesn't come out

2537
03:16:58,700 --> 03:17:03,580
until everything gets, when I say developed,

2538
03:17:04,020 --> 03:17:08,220
until the plan goes down the road a little bit.

2539
03:17:08,920 --> 03:17:11,200
And that's what it seems like is

2540
03:17:11,200 --> 03:17:18,520
what is the mystery here, because we want to know what it is, some of us do, and there

2541
03:17:18,520 --> 03:17:25,020
are others who, rightfully so, perhaps, we don't need to tell you. And it's neither right

2542
03:17:25,020 --> 03:17:29,960
nor wrong, it's just the way it is. And if I'm wrong in any of that, you know, let

2543
03:17:29,960 --> 03:17:30,440
me know.

2544
03:17:32,870 --> 03:17:38,990
Well, I think that we've done a number of re-zones where there was nothing proposed

2545
03:17:38,990 --> 03:17:42,450
and the re-zones was forwarded on.

2546
03:17:43,610 --> 03:17:46,090
And it was because we didn't have details,

2547
03:17:46,330 --> 03:17:48,150
but we were trying to position the ground.

2548
03:17:49,090 --> 03:17:52,830
In this particular case, there was an article in the IBJ

2549
03:17:52,830 --> 03:17:55,810
that shows, you know, the building along Range Line,

2550
03:17:56,770 --> 03:17:59,010
and there's been a fair amount of publicity

2551
03:17:59,010 --> 03:18:03,630
about the property that zoned C already.

2552
03:18:04,910 --> 03:18:08,690
I mean, that project is far enough along,

2553
03:18:08,690 --> 03:18:10,310
clearly that it was in the paper.

2554
03:18:10,790 --> 03:18:16,610
So I think that, you know, but the back half is still a work in progress, and the request

2555
03:18:16,610 --> 03:18:24,890
of this rezone, I think that the fact that we know that what wants to go there is not

2556
03:18:24,890 --> 03:18:29,090
mixed use, you know, not a commercial use, but a residential use, we know that much.

2557
03:18:29,610 --> 03:18:35,670
And we know that it's probably going to be fairly dense, denser than, you know,

2558
03:18:35,670 --> 03:18:43,830
the single family that exists down the street but less dense than some of the mixed-use

2559
03:18:43,830 --> 03:18:50,290
residential that's already gone in in very close proximity to this site.

2560
03:18:50,430 --> 03:19:00,310
Well, I get the feel that the plan commission wants to be a little bit more involved between

2561
03:19:00,310 --> 03:19:05,670
between what the plan is and what the public will to speak.

2562
03:19:06,670 --> 03:19:09,750
Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know, but anyway, I'll turn it back to Brad.

2563
03:19:10,530 --> 03:19:16,370
Well, I guess to that point, I would add the comment only that

2564
03:19:17,330 --> 03:19:24,970
the C2 zoning classification was endorsed by this body,

2565
03:19:24,970 --> 03:19:30,550
body, not these nine, not we nine individuals necessarily at that time, but by this body

2566
03:19:30,550 --> 03:19:35,290
and moved on to the council and was enacted into the zoning ordinance.

2567
03:19:36,410 --> 03:19:45,090
So we, whether any of us is uncomfortable with that delegated authority to the hearing officer

2568
03:19:45,090 --> 03:19:52,350
when it comes to ADLS, this is the creature that we created and it might be a Frankenstein

2569
03:19:52,350 --> 03:19:57,230
It might be exactly the economic development tool that the city needs.

2570
03:19:58,650 --> 03:20:03,350
But we own it, and if we're uncomfortable with it,

2571
03:20:03,490 --> 03:20:07,690
then we maybe should be looking at changing the zoning ordinance

2572
03:20:07,690 --> 03:20:10,050
and the process that goes with the classification.

2573
03:20:10,950 --> 03:20:14,870
But right now the city has this tool,

2574
03:20:15,510 --> 03:20:17,670
and it has the endorsement of this body,

2575
03:20:17,670 --> 03:20:19,250
and it was enacted by the council.

2576
03:20:21,930 --> 03:20:34,070
So, I think have at least our bias or our all ties go to letting that process work through

2577
03:20:34,070 --> 03:20:36,610
because that's what is on the books today by law.

2578
03:20:37,630 --> 03:20:40,230
It doesn't mean we have to be comfortable with it,

2579
03:20:40,310 --> 03:20:45,050
but all ties, I guess, go in favor of the petitioner, Mike.

2580
03:20:45,050 --> 03:20:52,830
We want you to be comfortable with it and I guess a part of why we have C zoning and why

2581
03:20:52,830 --> 03:20:57,510
It's separate from kind of regular plant Commission is that

2582
03:20:58,610 --> 03:21:04,890
The redevelopment projects tend to be slightly more complicated and there there's a whole

2583
03:21:06,050 --> 03:21:11,070
Project agreement that is negotiated between the redevelopment

2584
03:21:11,070 --> 03:21:18,050
commission and the developer that spells out a lot of the design parameters, and, you know,

2585
03:21:18,110 --> 03:21:28,470
it's a project pro forma that's very specifically negotiated, and then to have a separate plan

2586
03:21:28,470 --> 03:21:37,280
commission process has the potential to kind of blow up a project. I mean, to renegotiate

2587
03:21:37,280 --> 03:21:46,280
project details and that's why the C process was created so that the redevelopment commission

2588
03:21:46,960 --> 03:21:51,140
had a zoning district to negotiate redevelopment projects.

2589
03:21:52,360 --> 03:22:03,840
The public hearing is required by law and nothing really ever gets approved until redevelopment

2590
03:22:03,840 --> 03:22:10,320
Commission issues are addressed, as well as UDO issues and public comments, you know,

2591
03:22:10,400 --> 03:22:17,220
there's oftentimes conditions of approval that prevent the project from being built until

2592
03:22:17,220 --> 03:22:17,920
they're all addressed.

2593
03:22:18,240 --> 03:22:21,080
I mean, I think that I've said enough.

2594
03:22:27,500 --> 03:22:29,180
I'm going to ask an elementary question.

2595
03:22:30,060 --> 03:22:35,700
The Ariane question, is that considered one block or two blocks or four blocks?

2596
03:22:37,160 --> 03:22:38,960
The black line,

2597
03:22:41,290 --> 03:22:45,630
we're voting on the red line.

2598
03:22:46,810 --> 03:22:53,570
From the city's overall perspective, if we take the line over to range line and up,

2599
03:22:53,750 --> 03:22:55,210
is that considered a block?

2600
03:22:55,990 --> 03:22:59,910
So from range line to 1st Avenue is a block.

2601
03:23:00,270 --> 03:23:03,710
From 1st Street to Supply Street would be a block.

2602
03:23:04,590 --> 03:23:12,790
So my understanding is we're asking that that all be zoned the same, that the block be zoned the same.

2603
03:23:13,510 --> 03:23:21,590
There's an opportunity for public input and the motion would be for this body, the Plan Commission,

2604
03:23:22,250 --> 03:23:32,360
to move that the proposal be sent to the City County Council for rezoning to C2 with a favorable recommendation.

2605
03:23:32,360 --> 03:23:34,180
Would that be the proper motion?

2606
03:23:34,920 --> 03:23:35,660
Then I so move.

2607
03:23:44,530 --> 03:23:47,830
Is there a second to the motion?

2608
03:23:54,060 --> 03:24:04,640
I guess maybe I should back up a step and say that if we, the action by this body on this petition would be to send it to the council with a

2609
03:24:04,640 --> 03:24:13,780
recommendation either favorable or unfavorable, but for us to get there tonight, we first have to suspend our rules of procedure to take action on this

2610
03:24:13,780 --> 03:24:16,380
tonight without sending it to committee for further study.

2611
03:24:18,570 --> 03:24:20,470
So we should best, I think,

2612
03:24:20,610 --> 03:24:20,830
start to bear with it.

2613
03:24:20,830 --> 03:24:23,550
Okay, then I withdraw my motion. That was my, I was trying to get it.

2614
03:24:23,770 --> 03:24:26,290
Well, I'll keep that on the table, but we have a procedural.

2615
03:24:26,530 --> 03:24:27,410
Step A, step B, step C.

2616
03:24:27,590 --> 03:24:32,210
We require a procedural motion to be passed first, and that is to suspend our motion.

2617
03:24:32,430 --> 03:24:35,510
I want to back up a minute. So, and this is a little out of process, but is,

2618
03:24:36,330 --> 03:24:38,910
you know, typically we would send to, this would probably go to commercial committee.

2619
03:24:39,950 --> 03:24:44,330
I mean, is that, is that option completely off the table? Because I think most people

2620
03:24:44,330 --> 03:24:49,290
support but they want it is off the table it's not for this time okay just

2621
03:24:49,290 --> 03:24:50,590
asking then

2622
03:24:54,530 --> 03:25:00,050
to be clear what you're seeking is a motion for the plan

2623
03:25:00,050 --> 03:25:06,430
commission to suspend the rules regarding a rezoning request that would

2624
03:25:06,430 --> 03:25:11,470
be required if we are going to vote on sending it to the council with a

2625
03:25:11,470 --> 03:25:16,170
recommendation of some kind tonight without okay so council my motion I

2626
03:25:16,170 --> 03:25:17,850
and I made previously, I'm holding over here.

2627
03:25:18,710 --> 03:25:20,570
It's not off the table, it's suspended.

2628
03:25:20,690 --> 03:25:21,810
Correct, I have it on the table.

2629
03:25:22,030 --> 03:25:22,250
Okay.

2630
03:25:22,350 --> 03:25:23,150
The Chair has it on the table.

2631
03:25:23,390 --> 03:25:23,690
Okay.

2632
03:25:24,190 --> 03:25:28,070
Then is it appropriate for me to move to suspend the rules?

2633
03:25:28,610 --> 03:25:28,970
You may.

2634
03:25:30,230 --> 03:25:30,710
Yes.

2635
03:25:30,830 --> 03:25:32,410
With whatever words need to follow that

2636
03:25:32,410 --> 03:25:33,650
to make it legally correct.

2637
03:25:34,270 --> 03:25:38,250
The proper motion would be.

2638
03:25:38,490 --> 03:25:39,710
The proper motion would be to suspend the rules

2639
03:25:40,250 --> 03:25:44,550
to send this request to council

2640
03:25:44,550 --> 03:25:49,410
with either favorable, not favorable, or no recommendation at all.

2641
03:25:49,950 --> 03:25:53,510
We still need to suspend the rules and procedures to vote on it.

2642
03:25:53,670 --> 03:25:54,530
That's what he said.

2643
03:25:54,550 --> 03:25:54,710
Correct.

2644
03:25:55,570 --> 03:26:07,510
So I would move to suspend the rules to send this proposal to council with a recommendation

2645
03:26:08,250 --> 03:26:09,970
pursuant to a subsequent motion.

2646
03:26:11,210 --> 03:26:11,730
Correct.

2647
03:26:12,070 --> 03:26:12,710
That's what I move.

2648
03:26:16,240 --> 03:26:16,800
Thank you.

2649
03:26:19,170 --> 03:26:21,490
Is there a second of the motion to suspend our rules?

2650
03:26:30,550 --> 03:26:31,550
I'll second the motion.

2651
03:26:32,050 --> 03:26:32,630
Thank you.

2652
03:26:33,690 --> 03:26:36,630
If there is – is there any discussion on the motion to suspend our rules?

2653
03:26:38,390 --> 03:26:42,730
Then we will vote on the motion to suspend our rules to take action on this petition this evening.

2654
03:26:43,470 --> 03:26:45,130
All in favor of suspending a rule, say aye.

2655
03:26:45,890 --> 03:26:46,290
Aye.

2656
03:26:46,290 --> 03:26:46,430
Aye.

2657
03:26:47,510 --> 03:26:49,470
Okay, we'll do a show of hands just to be clear.

2658
03:26:50,090 --> 03:26:50,790
All in favor?

2659
03:26:51,130 --> 03:26:51,850
Hands in the air?

2660
03:26:53,030 --> 03:26:54,210
To suspend the rules.

2661
03:26:56,290 --> 03:26:57,730
Mr. Ryder, are you still with us?

2662
03:26:58,810 --> 03:27:00,350
Oh, you can't vote, I'm sorry, never mind.

2663
03:27:01,710 --> 03:27:03,190
Motion to suspend the rules.

2664
03:27:03,570 --> 03:27:04,670
Is the other option just a two?

2665
03:27:06,800 --> 03:27:07,960
No, we might.

2666
03:27:08,300 --> 03:27:09,040
It could be.

2667
03:27:09,760 --> 03:27:10,060
Okay.

2668
03:27:10,480 --> 03:27:11,280
To suspend the rules.

2669
03:27:11,420 --> 03:27:12,920
One, two, three, four, five.

2670
03:27:15,600 --> 03:27:17,860
One, two, three, four, five.

2671
03:27:20,440 --> 03:27:24,800
So to suspend our rules requires a two-thirds vote.

2672
03:27:26,460 --> 03:27:27,040
That's correct.

2673
03:27:27,040 --> 03:27:31,480
And we have nine members present tonight, so that motion fails.

2674
03:27:32,000 --> 03:27:32,680
Mr. President.

2675
03:27:33,320 --> 03:27:33,720
Yes, sir.

2676
03:27:34,080 --> 03:27:43,460
I move that we send this to the commercial committee giving the commercial committee final voting authority.

2677
03:27:45,320 --> 03:27:46,200
Thank you both.

2678
03:27:46,300 --> 03:27:47,320
Is there discussion on the motion?

2679
03:27:49,610 --> 03:27:55,070
Then we will vote on the motion to send this to the commercial committee with final voting authority delegated to that committee.

2680
03:27:55,670 --> 03:27:56,990
All in favor of that motion.

2681
03:27:57,630 --> 03:28:01,350
signify by saying I, I, any opposed.

2682
03:28:04,930 --> 03:28:07,970
Do I see have two negative votes? Okay, then

2683
03:28:07,970 --> 03:28:13,950
that motion carries by a vote of six to two. So this will go to the commercial

2684
03:28:13,950 --> 03:28:18,870
committee and remain there until they give it an endorsement and forward it

2685
03:28:18,870 --> 03:28:23,690
to the council for further action. Thank you.

2686
03:28:27,870 --> 03:28:29,370
Rebecca, we're almost there.

2687
03:28:29,370 --> 03:28:30,430
old

2688
03:28:35,200 --> 03:28:41,800
business dash two zero two two dash zero zero one one eight DP ADLS the goat

2689
03:28:41,800 --> 03:28:45,380
the applicant seek site plan and design approval for a building addition slash

2690
03:28:45,380 --> 03:28:50,080
remodel on zero point two acres the site is located at 220 second Street

2691
03:28:50,080 --> 03:28:56,080
Southwest in Frank Hawkins Edition lot one the site is zoned B2 and is within

2692
03:28:56,080 --> 03:29:01,140
the old town overlay character sub area filed by Ben Bemis of CEC Inc.

2693
03:29:06,370 --> 03:29:06,970
on

2694
03:29:06,970 --> 03:29:09,150
Get us out of the mess that we just left.

2695
03:29:10,490 --> 03:29:11,650
I should know better by now.

2696
03:29:11,750 --> 03:29:12,050
Thank you.

2697
03:29:12,310 --> 03:29:13,090
My name is Dan Coos.

2698
03:29:13,210 --> 03:29:16,130
I'm an attorney with Coots Hickin' Wheeler, 255 East Carmel Drive,

2699
03:29:16,390 --> 03:29:21,070
and I'm here tonight on behalf of the petitioner, Kevin Paul,

2700
03:29:21,410 --> 03:29:23,830
with Tomahawk Holding, LLC, owner of The Goat.

2701
03:29:24,090 --> 03:29:27,530
And we also have the architect of the project, Dan Moriarty,

2702
03:29:27,930 --> 03:29:29,030
with Studio M.

2703
03:29:30,310 --> 03:29:34,050
And at this time, obviously, we don't have much more to present.

2704
03:29:34,050 --> 03:29:39,130
that was, you know, not presented last month, we would just request that the

2705
03:29:39,130 --> 03:29:44,530
Plan Commission approve the unanimous recommendation of the commercial

2706
03:29:44,530 --> 03:29:50,290
committee that was conducted earlier this month and approve the ADLS as

2707
03:29:50,290 --> 03:29:54,650
submitted. And obviously we have some representatives here if there's any

2708
03:29:54,650 --> 03:29:58,810
additional questions of the Commission regarding the project.

2709
03:30:02,900 --> 03:30:10,460
Thank you. This is not a public hearing, so we would go straight to the department report.

2710
03:30:10,880 --> 03:30:15,720
Thank you. Again, for the record, Rachel Kiesling with the Department of Community Services.

2711
03:30:16,580 --> 03:30:32,020
To update, everyone, there have been adjustments made to the plan regarding the size and the placement of the building in order to avoid the stormwater and utility easement that runs along the Mona Boulevard.

2712
03:30:33,000 --> 03:30:38,340
So, the building addition that they've proposed is moved back to meet the setback requirements

2713
03:30:38,340 --> 03:30:43,540
and also avoid this important utility along Monant Boulevard.

2714
03:30:43,920 --> 03:30:49,560
There will be 120 new seats proposed in the addition, as well as six new restroom facilities.

2715
03:30:49,900 --> 03:30:56,680
And we did discuss in great detail at the committee that six additional restroom facilities

2716
03:30:56,680 --> 03:30:57,720
will be sufficient.

2717
03:30:57,720 --> 03:31:02,440
They also have two other existing restrooms on the other side of the building

2718
03:31:03,560 --> 03:31:07,140
All comments and concerns that we had have been addressed

2719
03:31:07,940 --> 03:31:15,880
And the petitioner has kept this proposed addition and plan in line with the commitments that they made to City Council as

2720
03:31:15,880 --> 03:31:17,200
part of their rezone approval

2721
03:31:18,720 --> 03:31:22,980
They do have to request one variance and that's for lot coverage

2722
03:31:22,980 --> 03:31:26,860
70% locked coverage is allowed by the old town overlay.

2723
03:31:27,460 --> 03:31:29,220
They are requesting 80%.

2724
03:31:29,940 --> 03:31:33,280
That variance will be heard next Monday at the BZA.

2725
03:31:34,240 --> 03:31:40,740
We are supportive of that variance as enclosing the entire open area was part of the plan

2726
03:31:41,450 --> 03:31:46,820
to address the noise and the gathering concerns that we had from when they were first opened.

2727
03:31:47,360 --> 03:31:49,180
So we do recommend approval tonight.

2728
03:31:49,940 --> 03:31:50,440
Thank you.

2729
03:31:50,440 --> 03:31:51,380
Thank

2730
03:31:54,540 --> 03:31:56,740
you. And the commercial committee report.

2731
03:31:57,140 --> 03:32:06,660
Mr. President, I defer to staff's report. There wasn't anything else I could add to it unless there were members present tonight.

2732
03:32:07,480 --> 03:32:11,880
The commercial committee who wish to add to the staff's report.

2733
03:32:12,620 --> 03:32:16,420
Thank you, Alan. Are there any members of the committee who wish to add anything?

2734
03:32:17,180 --> 03:32:18,260
All right. Discussion from the commission?

2735
03:32:28,160 --> 03:32:35,280
Thank you both. If there is no discussion on the motion, then we will vote on approving

2736
03:32:37,040 --> 03:32:45,220
docket PZ-2022-00118 DPADLS, the goat, all in favor of the motion signify by saying aye.

2737
03:32:45,300 --> 03:32:45,700
Aye.

2738
03:32:46,360 --> 03:32:46,760
Any opposed?

2739
03:32:49,710 --> 03:32:51,230
Faster than your dad would have done it.

2740
03:32:51,470 --> 03:32:52,350
Thank you very much.

2741
03:32:53,730 --> 03:32:54,330
Thank you.

2742
03:32:56,450 --> 03:32:56,990
Rebecca,

2743
03:33:02,700 --> 03:33:09,080
docket number PZ-2022-00143 ADLS North End Pool, the applicant seeks site plan

2744
03:33:09,080 --> 03:33:12,940
and design approval for a new pool and pool house at the North End Development.

2745
03:33:13,260 --> 03:33:19,680
The site is located north of Mariposa Trail and Freeland Way and is zoned UR Urban Residential.

2746
03:33:19,780 --> 03:33:22,820
Petition is filed by Rebecca McGeckin of Old Town Companies.

2747
03:33:23,380 --> 03:33:24,440
Thank you for sticking with us.

2748
03:33:24,680 --> 03:33:25,200
Thank you.

2749
03:33:25,700 --> 03:33:27,240
Rebecca McGeckin with Old Town.

2750
03:33:27,840 --> 03:33:28,600
Thank you.

2751
03:33:28,700 --> 03:33:33,360
This commission has given feedback already on ADLS through the apartments, townhomes,

2752
03:33:33,760 --> 03:33:36,040
and the restaurant that's part of the North End development.

2753
03:33:36,280 --> 03:33:37,760
So I'll just quickly give you context.

2754
03:33:38,260 --> 03:33:44,320
This again is adjacent to 31 and Smokey Row and nearly adjacent to the Monant Trail.

2755
03:33:44,740 --> 03:33:48,540
Zooming into the overall site plan this evening, we're focusing on what's in orange,

2756
03:33:48,700 --> 03:33:51,640
which includes the Maples restaurant, which again was reviewed at committee.

2757
03:33:51,940 --> 03:33:54,660
And then this is for the amenity and pool area.

2758
03:33:54,660 --> 03:33:54,780
area.

2759
03:33:55,400 --> 03:33:57,100
The pool space is laid out.

2760
03:33:57,260 --> 03:34:03,980
It's approximately 27 by 75 feet, and you see there's two pergolas, a fireplace, grilling

2761
03:34:03,980 --> 03:34:07,220
station, tanning shelf, and then the pool building.

2762
03:34:09,500 --> 03:34:12,980
The color scheme is consistent with the development.

2763
03:34:13,260 --> 03:34:17,860
The nearest apartment building is this elevation building C, and you see the color scheme

2764
03:34:17,860 --> 03:34:21,400
to the left is what's put on the exterior of the pool building.

2765
03:34:23,620 --> 03:34:28,120
This gives you a sense of the furniture in the layout, from the lounge chairs to the

2766
03:34:28,120 --> 03:34:30,140
love seats to the pool lounges and tables.

2767
03:34:32,440 --> 03:34:36,400
The grill and fire features are colored gray, the retaining wall and almond.

2768
03:34:39,840 --> 03:34:44,160
The floor plan for the pool building includes an equipment room, two restrooms and showers.

2769
03:34:48,270 --> 03:34:49,530
Asphalt shingles for the roof.

2770
03:34:50,750 --> 03:34:56,730
The front elevation, which faces the pool, simply has a door, brick veneer, lap siding.

2771
03:34:57,790 --> 03:35:03,410
The rear elevation facing more towards Building C and the stormwater detention area, which

2772
03:35:03,410 --> 03:35:03,970
is dry.

2773
03:35:04,610 --> 03:35:08,690
Asphalt shingle roofs again, grey, and then the windows to add to it.

2774
03:35:08,790 --> 03:35:13,330
There are restrooms behind some of the windowed areas, which will be glazed glass.

2775
03:35:15,650 --> 03:35:17,390
Side elevations of the building.

2776
03:35:19,590 --> 03:35:23,930
Lighting throughout the site, including both lights above the pergolas.

2777
03:35:24,510 --> 03:35:26,650
a fixed lighting to the pool building,

2778
03:35:26,990 --> 03:35:28,610
bollards throughout the site,

2779
03:35:29,110 --> 03:35:30,930
and these are the fixtures that were already approved

2780
03:35:30,930 --> 03:35:33,890
on the Maple's restaurant, which is near adjacent to the pool.

2781
03:35:37,700 --> 03:35:39,480
Landscaping, what's shown here again,

2782
03:35:39,740 --> 03:35:42,240
we're emphasizing natives throughout the development.

2783
03:35:43,020 --> 03:35:45,400
Some planters here along the retaining walls,

2784
03:35:45,540 --> 03:35:48,440
because again, we have underwater detention here,

2785
03:35:48,620 --> 03:35:51,160
storm chambers that make it difficult to plant trees,

2786
03:35:51,320 --> 03:35:53,640
but I've made a commitment to DOCS

2787
03:35:53,640 --> 03:35:59,020
to again review with our landscaper additional opportunities we would have for trees around

2788
03:35:59,020 --> 03:36:00,480
the perimeter of the pool site.

2789
03:36:05,180 --> 03:36:07,200
That concludes my portion.

2790
03:36:08,860 --> 03:36:10,040
Thank you very much.

2791
03:36:10,220 --> 03:36:10,720
Department report.

2792
03:36:14,750 --> 03:36:18,470
Thank you for the record, Alexia Lopez, Department of Community Services.

2793
03:36:19,430 --> 03:36:23,330
This ADLS is looking at the design of the pool and pool building at the north end development.

2794
03:36:24,010 --> 03:36:27,850
As was shown, it's between apartment building C and the Maple's Restaurant.

2795
03:36:27,850 --> 03:36:32,230
There's a small building with restrooms, showers, and the pool equipment in it.

2796
03:36:32,770 --> 03:36:37,130
Access to the pools from the sidewalks connecting to the north and from the south as well.

2797
03:36:37,990 --> 03:36:43,570
Bike parking spaces are required per the UDO, and I believe the petitioners said they

2798
03:36:43,570 --> 03:36:48,830
will be adding additional spots specifically for the pool so that they're closer.

2799
03:36:49,530 --> 03:36:52,610
The UDO requires to be within 50 feet of the main entrance.

2800
03:36:54,410 --> 03:36:57,850
The architecture of the pool is similar to the apartment buildings, which we support.

2801
03:36:58,110 --> 03:36:59,710
The color scheme is similar.

2802
03:37:00,050 --> 03:37:01,530
There's no signage with this proposal.

2803
03:37:03,370 --> 03:37:07,410
Landscape beds have been provided around the site for the landscaping, and that's mostly

2804
03:37:07,410 --> 03:37:11,490
made up of shrubs, grasses, and perennials, which is why we asked for some additional

2805
03:37:11,490 --> 03:37:13,930
trees around the site if they could add some.

2806
03:37:15,630 --> 03:37:20,990
And then we were looking at the south retaining wall and trying to soften that a little

2807
03:37:20,990 --> 03:37:23,750
bit with adding some additional landscaping and that's what she was

2808
03:37:23,750 --> 03:37:29,550
mentioning the planting the planters. So I think they're committing to adding

2809
03:37:29,550 --> 03:37:36,830
those along that south wall instead of an actual landscape bed along there.

2810
03:37:40,250 --> 03:37:40,250
And

2811
03:37:40,250 --> 03:37:44,190
the lighting will be provided with downlights and the pergola structures,

2812
03:37:44,710 --> 03:37:48,470
wall-mounted lights on the pool building and bollards mostly around the

2813
03:37:48,470 --> 03:37:54,510
perimeter of the pool area by the fence they addressed our question about where

2814
03:37:54,510 --> 03:37:57,530
those baller lights was I wasn't looking at the correct sheet I think to

2815
03:37:57,530 --> 03:38:03,590
identify those so that comment from the department report has been satisfied and

2816
03:38:04,310 --> 03:38:08,090
the only other two was the bike parking which will continue work through

2817
03:38:08,090 --> 03:38:11,290
project docs with them to make sure they those are installed by the pool

2818
03:38:11,290 --> 03:38:16,370
and then see if they can add some more trees and other areas around the

2819
03:38:16,370 --> 03:38:22,250
the pool. So with that, we would recommend, I think, approval this night and we'll continue

2820
03:38:22,250 --> 03:38:26,130
to finalize those items through Project OX. Thank you.

2821
03:38:28,560 --> 03:38:33,500
Thank you. Let's see, this is new business, so this has not been to the committee yet.

2822
03:38:35,140 --> 03:38:37,260
Questions? Discussion from members of the commission?

2823
03:38:40,960 --> 03:38:43,880
Is this pool open to all residents? No matter.

2824
03:38:44,680 --> 03:38:49,800
Yes. And again, there's 168 apartments, 46 townhomes, and 10 single-family homes.

2825
03:38:53,880 --> 03:38:55,380
Do you have any issues with this?

2826
03:38:56,340 --> 03:38:59,200
I move that we suspend our rules and act on this to see.

2827
03:38:59,240 --> 03:38:59,640
I'll

2828
03:39:03,860 --> 03:39:06,160
take that motion under advisement.

2829
03:39:07,040 --> 03:39:13,380
I know I do have one question and that is the wall mounted light fixtures have those been submitted?

2830
03:39:15,400 --> 03:39:16,720
I believe those were yes.

2831
03:39:16,920 --> 03:39:18,440
So I apologize they weren't in your packet.

2832
03:39:18,440 --> 03:39:20,380
I was awaiting them and this is them right here.

2833
03:39:21,640 --> 03:39:25,320
Is that a black or bronze kind of bronze finish?

2834
03:39:26,080 --> 03:39:27,260
Okay, so

2835
03:39:30,940 --> 03:39:37,040
no this we do not then I move that we approve this as quick as we can we have a motion from mr

2836
03:39:37,040 --> 03:39:44,580
Potasnik, so I will take that as a second okay all in favor of the motion to approve dock at PZ-2022-00 143

2837
03:39:44,580 --> 03:39:50,680
ADLS North End Pool and send us all home. Please signify by saying aye. Any opposed?

2838
03:39:51,800 --> 03:39:54,780
The motion carries. Thank you very much. Thank you

2839
03:39:57,180 --> 03:40:00,520
Any other business for us tonight? What could there possibly be?

2840
03:40:00,520 --> 03:40:03,140
I just have a couple more things we could talk about.

2841
03:40:07,970 --> 03:40:13,290
The only open question though has to do with the availability of a quorum for the residential

2842
03:40:13,290 --> 03:40:15,110
committee on October 6th.

2843
03:40:15,370 --> 03:40:20,150
So it sounds like we might have a committee of zero then,

2844
03:40:32,650 --> 03:40:34,450
Josh, availability on October

2845
03:40:34,450 --> 03:40:35,170
6th.

2846
03:40:35,250 --> 03:40:36,890
Anybody on October 6th?

2847
03:40:43,120 --> 03:40:46,700
I'm talking about to staff the residential committee meeting.

2848
03:40:50,760 --> 03:40:55,640
Raise your hand if you can, are not available on October 6th, regardless of your normal committee assignment.

2849
03:40:57,280 --> 03:40:59,160
Not available on October 6th.

2850
03:41:08,880 --> 03:41:11,200
I'm there. Is that necessary? Raise your hand if you're absent.

2851
03:41:11,200 --> 03:41:14,460
No. Hand if you're absent. Hand if you're not available. Hand up.

2852
03:42:41,410 --> 03:42:42,150
Yeah, I'm poor.