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>> good morning, everyone and welcome to the december 19,

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2023 caroline county commissioners meeting. Sorry, my microphone is not on.

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this morning we have our invocation by pastor dan krupala of trinity

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and henderson united methodist church and that'll be followed by the pledge of allegiance.

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so for everyone to rise. Good morning pastor. >> good morning. Would you pray with me?

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father god, we thank you for this beautiful day, lord. We thank you for the opportunity to do your good works in our county.

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we ask that you bless this meeting, lord. We ask that you bless the proceedings and bless the commissioners and their staff.

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lord, we want to lift up our first responders over this holiday season, grant them safety, grant them wisdom,

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and grant them protection. We also want to lift up all the agencies of

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our county that make life so great here and caroline county. In your son's, holy name, we pray, amen.

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>> amen. >>

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>>thank you pastor. >>thank you.

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>> we will have a public comment period later in the meeting during

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the discussion about the proposed resolution on dissolved air flotation.

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if you would like to comment about that, please hold that comment until later in the meeting.

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at this time I will open and allow general public comment.

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please direct all comments to me, the chair, do not address county staff or other members of the audience.

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for the interests of time, please keep your comments limited to three minutes. Time may be extended if questioned by one of the commissioners or county staff.

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if your testimony is consistent with previous comments, please just state that you agree with those comments and refrain from restating.

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when you comment, please come forward, state your name and address.

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is there anyone who would like to comment at this time?

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>> sir. >> sure. It is about the chicken place.

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>> later. We'll discuss that later. >> that's fine. >>just general comment at this point.

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thank you. None being seen,

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we will move on to our first agenda item, which is the declaration.

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thank you. Closed session readout from last commissioner meeting.

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the commissioners met in closed session during their december 12, 2023 county commissioner meeting under authority 2014 maryland code,

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state government 3-305b, section 7, to consult with counsel to obtain legal advice.

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no actions were taken and staff was asked to write a formal daf moratorium to be added to the commissioners december 19, 2023 agenda.

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attendees were the commissioners; commissioner breeding, commissioner bartz,

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and commissioner porter, katheleen freeman, daniel fox, crystal dadds, jennifer reibly,

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stewart barroll, and mary berneski. Now on to our first agenda item which is

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a declaration of emergency for road repair permits.

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it's my understanding that as president of the commission,

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I have the ability to declare an emergency, but I would like to have a formal vote on declaring the emergency.

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I know we already voted to declare an emergency for the repair of gilpin point road

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but last weekend it was brought to our attention that we had another issue of road pipe failure.

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we would like to extend that emergency declaration to

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the issue road project and the gilpin point project for emergency repairs.

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do I hear a motion to declare emergency for those two roads?

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all in favor say aye. >> aye. >> all opposed. Declaration. Next agenda item is mr. Milton nagel,

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a caroline county resident with information and services for a project he has. Morning milton.

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>> good morning. >> good morning, commissioners.

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>> staff. Thank you for the opportunity to come before you this morning.

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I did have some packets for you afterwards but my mother, who was career kindergarten teacher,

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taught me a long time ago, don't hand out things to people if you

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don't want them to read them and not pay attention to what you have to say. [laughter] you'll get my packet at the end.

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it's good to see so many people out here today that hear what I'm about to say.

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as you gentlemen know and ladies, lucas nagel, my youngest son will forever be 27.

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an army veteran deployed twice, serving 10 years as a military police soldier,

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six-year veteran or the caroline county sheriff's department, lost his battle to his demons on december 31st this past year.

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statistically, at least 22 veterans a day pass for the same reason.

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in addition, more locally, 18-24% of dispatcher suffer from ptsd.

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35% of police officers suffer from ptsd.

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that's more than one in three. And 37% of active fire and ems have contemplated suicide.

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I didn't make those numbers up, I pull those numbers off of well-researched information.

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we must do more as a society to recognize this growing issue and provide resources and

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tools to our first responders so they have a better chance to lead a long and healthy life.

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departments invest so much time, effort, and money into recruitment and training yet we aren't

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taking care of their largest organ in the body, and that's their brain. Data supports the fact that more and more are

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leaving the career because of brain health issues. My mission and my family's mission is to do everything that

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we can to ensure that no other family within our community has to live through what we have

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and will continue to live through for the rest of our lives. So we established the lucas nagel memorial fund not too long

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after he passed and we're doing some fundraising, we're raising money.

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but in the interim, I came across thanks to rick barton,

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whose a very key figure in the local community, to be the president of the board of education and is employed through

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a organization called icisf international critical incident stress foundation.

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through another gentleman in the community whose retired law enforcement officer and a now a 911 dispatcher down in ocean city,

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who also has fought demons as a result of ongoing stress as associated with this profession.

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he now does rescue yoga. But between the two of them, we found this documentary that was created out of maryland.

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it's called ptsd 911 and they have developed a digital toolkit for first responder agencies.

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in the documentary, we had a viewing of it up at chesapeake college

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several weeks ago and it's very engaging, it follows the ongoing struggles of three first responders;

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one law enforcement official, a 911 dispatcher, and a paid firefighter.

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it isn't filled with glory details, but rather includes real-life testimonials,

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including a lot of medical professional analysis on the impact of the brain from ongoing traumatic events.

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what I propose is the foundation through an anonymous supporter,

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wants to purchase the ptsd 911 digital toolkit for

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caroline county to be shown to all the first responders in the community, paid and volunteer.

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what I would like to see the commissioners support is to schedule appropriate date and time coordination

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with the two high schools to show the film in the auditoriums for the first responders and their families, if they want to come.

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then ongoing mission of this foundation is to work with and support

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the first responder agencies to develop and implement no cost and low-cost solutions aimed at providing support to their members.

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then in conjunction with icisf, which has graciously volunteered to donate their time to help initially train teams,

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the foundation would continue to support their peer teams that help to debrief first responders following traumatic events.

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I know I've talked to mr. Porter as a lifetime fireman himself, he's been exposed.

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you go out on an ambulance call or a traffic incident call

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your heart's sinks because you just hope and pray that it's not somebody that you know.

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but we all know that it's happened where it has been somebody that you know and that

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has to have an impact on you and the statistics don't lie.

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that's my request before you today, is that if we do go ahead and purchase this,

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that you'll support it to the extent that you can to encourage all of our first responder agencies to come out to the event

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and help our members of this community

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get the help that they need so that they can lead long and productive lives.

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>> absolutely. You have my support and anything we can do to help.

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I admire your strength in this difficult time I don't know that I

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could handle it as strongly as you have.

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your service is greatly appreciated and bringing attention to

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this and we're behind you, at least I am.

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>> thank you. >> you've handled it better than me.

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we're coming up on this terrible anniversary and as you told me,

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this is a year of first and I've been saying this as a volunteer fireman.

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I've been seeing this more and more often and I'll keep saying it. People sometimes have to hear but I don't

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care because people need to understand it takes its toll.

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>> nobody in their right mind does what people do every day.

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>> right. >> nobody wakes up in the morning and says,

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today I'm going to take my life. Something happens, something snaps,

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in this documentary talks about that, by competent medical professionals talks about

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the ongoing trauma to the brain and how that section of the brain can't shut off and it overrides rational thinking and first responders are taught what,

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especially law enforcement to react. >> it's okay to say you're not okay and it's not a sign of weakness

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and it is not something to be hidden

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or afraid of and I can tell you that being the old man,

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I've talked to a lot of young firefighters and told them

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if you have a problem if you need to talk to somebody, go do it.

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>> we have a lot of them in this community that are paid firefighters and then

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volunteer here so you know what they're saying? They're seeing a lot of it.

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>> but it is. You're absolutely correct. The wonderful thing about living here and being born here,

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and growing up here, your whole life, like you have and I have,

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the bad thing is you know everybody so when there is a tragedy,

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when there is something that occurs, it's not like all that just happened to somebody.

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it affects the whole community and the whole county so absolutely.

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milton, anything that I can do.

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>> well, I work with the two high schools to select some dates and obviously,

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we're donning sheriff's department and we'll keep

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you posted and hope you can support it through your platforms.

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>> we can certainly publicize it from here through our website and whatever we can do to get the word out.

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>> to add some context to the audience who may not be aware lucas was a county lifelong resident,

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army veteran, baseball codes, sheriff's deputy, republican central committee member.

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>> yeah. >> when he was a young man. >> this is a great way to honor your son and bring attention to

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the pandemic that everybody is facing here. I got to know your son due to committee for

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four years and he was always pleasure to be around, and he always had something positive to say

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and garrett would joke around and carry on and I think about that often he was

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such a good young man so anything you need milton, we are here for you.

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>> thank you. Now I'll give you your [laughter].

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>> for more information, I would like you to have.

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>> thank you. >> pleasure talking [inaudible].

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>> thank you, sir. >> thank you for your time.

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>> yes sir. Thank you.

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>> next up we have debbie bowden, director of economic development,

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rob sell mccrone engineering, and scott getchell old manager town of denton with a presentation of

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draft preliminary engineering reports for the west denton stormwater project.

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you got him brian, I think they might be out in the hallway.

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>> good morning. >> morning. >> morning, debbie. [noise]

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>> I can stand. [laughter] >> do we have another chair out there brian?

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scott there you go. >> always applied to me. [laughter]

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>> good morning. >> good morning. Debbie bowden director of economic development and tourism and I

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am here today to present rob sell actually from

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mccrone engineering to talk about the study that's completed

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that looked at bringing water and sewer across the bridge,

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across the top tank to the area that is known as west denton. Just a little bit of background so this was a project that

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was funded through the rural maryland economic development fund. It started off as this idea of can water and sewer go across the river?

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at that time, I met with mayor abby mcninch and she brought who was going to

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soon be a new employee with her to have a conversation and that was scott getchell who is also here with me.

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the week before he started officially as the town of denton manager

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that we sat down and talked and outlined how best to approach this,

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both from a county's interests in having the project done and from the town's interest,

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and so based on scott's experience and his professional ability,

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we decided to do a preliminary engineering report and to divide it into two reports,

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one for water, one for sewer, and to look at two different areas in what we generally call west denton.

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area 1 is the village of west denton that is bordered by the river and matthews town, new bridge road.

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the second area is more industrial area that is bordered by 404,

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meeting house road, and matthews town road.

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we engaged mccrone to do

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these preliminary reports and I'll ask rob if you will give just an overview of what that means.

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this isn't anything that's in-depth. This is really just that preliminary report.

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they had some scheduling issues because at the same time,

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the town denton was undergoing some improvements to their water system but they worked diligently.

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they worked hard and they were able to get it done. Wanted to bring it to you today to the county commissioners on this day before we have

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an opportunity to take it to the town of denton because this is my last meeting and so as a county-funded project,

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I want it to be able to share it with you and then we'll work with the next director and with scott

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and with rob on taking it to the town and whatever those next steps would be and I believe scott,

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that'll be sometime in january, maybe early. >> it can be. >> it can be, in january or february.

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with that, I'll turn over to rob sell and have him share what the reports say.

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>> good morning everybody. >> good morning. >> my name is rob sell I am with mccrone engineering in annapolis,

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we were hired by the county to look at the water and sewer possibilities for west denton.

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the format for the reports is on the usda format.

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usda is not involved at this time, but it wanted to do the report that way so in

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case you're looking for funding that would be an easy transition for them.

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what we did, we broke it into both water and sewer and like you said,

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there is two different areas of west denton. For the sewer, we analyzed the existing system in denton and

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what we had to do first is we had to generate flows for the area in west denton and see if there's capacity.

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since this is a planning exercise. You're very conservative when you do these things,

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you want to be played for I guess a total of redevelopment as a possibility.

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we looked at it both ways of what's there today and what could be there in the future.

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like in the area to the industrial that has very high yield,

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it could be a very high yield if it's redeveloped.

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you'd have to build a pump station over in that area to get it across the river.

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we would go underneath the river, drill underneath the river and into

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the existing collection system in the town of denton and they're into a second street pump station.

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second street pump station would be the most logical place to take it which from there,

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it would work its way to the treatment plant. What we found is that if for the entire west denton area,

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the build out, the flow was way over capacity for everything in the town.

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that's what prompted us to break it down into the two different areas.

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the more residential area 1, both for the current flows and for the future flows,

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could flow to the town without

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any major upgrades to the town's wastewater collection system.

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any additional flow that gets to the treatment plant just

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furthers capacity problems because there's certain things that the town's already looking at as far as upgrades.

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these aren't necessarily tip them over the edge, but they add to the concerns and the capacity issues.

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but for the other one, if you put area 2 in there, we looked at different ways.

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we looked at connecting to the pump station, second street pump station,

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and ten we looked at also just taken a force main all the way to the plant. In either one of those cases,

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it would be over capacity of the plant. The going all the way to the treatment plan

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just made it so you didn't have to do upgrades all through the town. Which may be easier on the town,

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and a little less expensive, but a lot less disruptive.

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the conclusion for that, for the sewer was that you could sort of area 1,

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it's pretty much with what was there in the channel. >>area 1 as where?

208
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>> area 1 is in the villages. That's the first one is when you get over the bridge, the first [inaudible].

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then we did cost estimates for everything in a 20-year cost analysis.

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for the water, we did basically the same thing. We went out here,

211
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and then he said there was coordinating with the town because some of the areas that we wanted to look at for creating a hydraulic model,

212
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the town, were under construction. For doing a hydraulic model of the town,

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we were out here for a day. A couple of people were out here, and running around town testing fire hydrants.

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from testing fire hydrants, we created a model, a hydraulic model of the town so that we could determine that a,

215
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if water could get to area 1 and area 2 in west denton and b,

216
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if you did serve those areas, what do you do to the rest of the town? You can't just hook these up and not look that have some effect on the town.

217
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the criteria you look at, make sure that there's adequate pressure under the peak flows,

218
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the lunchtime, and dinnertime, and getting ready for work time. Then, you also look at what happens in the system if there's a fire

219
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and that you have to have enough water to fight a fire,

220
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but you have to have enough pressure everywhere in the system that the rest of the town can maintain normal uses.

221
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then you also have to look at things like the number of wells,

222
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they've three wells and we look at the capacity of the wells and make sure we don't take that over the capacity because that's all permitted.

223
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then also, they have those three storage tanks in town and you want to

224
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have enough storage for a couple of hours of fire flow and a day's worth of average flow for the town.

225
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we checked that to make sure that we weren't violating any of that.

226
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when we did that, we came up with, first looking at the whole town,

227
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there was since this is a pressure as you extend the pipe to a dead end,

228
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which this would be going across the river under the bridge or tied to the bottom the bridge,

229
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which is what our recommendation was, was the pressure would decrease continually until you get to the end of the area 2.

230
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at that point, there wasn't enough pressure to serve that area and then certainly,

231
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there wasn't enough fire flow to serve that area. What we would recommend,

232
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if the area was 1 and 2, you have to put another tank at that end of the project and in another well,

233
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because there's already issues in the town with chlorine residual because of some

234
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of the longer runs of pipe and by taking the pipe another mile,

235
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a couple of miles of chlorine residual, the pipes would be nothing after you get there.

236
00:26:44,005 --> 00:26:44,005
you'd have to put a tank and a well,

237
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and chlorination out there to serve area 2. But if you were just looking at area 1,

238
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you could do it with what you have now. It wouldn't violate the amount of storage needed,

239
00:27:00,130 --> 00:27:00,130
you want to maintain 35 psi,

240
00:27:04,375 --> 00:27:07,360
that's relatively low, but that's what the industry standard is for a system during peak times.

241
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then during fire flow, I think we could keep 1,700 gallons a minute, which is pretty good.

242
00:27:19,375 --> 00:27:19,375
a minimum is usually around 1,000 gallons a minute for fire flow.

243
00:27:24,010 --> 00:27:24,010
then for that, you want to maintain 20 psi in the system and we could do that too.

244
00:27:30,025 --> 00:27:33,535
just going over to area 1, there would be minimal anything that we'd have to do to the existing town.

245
00:27:39,910 --> 00:27:39,910
for that one, we have cost estimates in here to show what the cost would be

246
00:27:44,830 --> 00:27:44,830
to tie to the bottom of the bridge and run all the pipe out there to the different areas.

247
00:27:52,465 --> 00:27:52,465
for that one, our recommendation was to serve area 1 also.

248
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>> yes. Thank you. From a cost perspective, and again, this would be something that the town and the county,

249
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if both entities are interested in pursuing,

250
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would take the results of the study and look at the cost,

251
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:13,600
look at the amount of infrastructure that would have to be added,

252
00:28:17,815 --> 00:28:21,640
or it could be used as standing and move forward from there. But the goal of this report was to get to

253
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this point where the county and the town would start having conversations.

254
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because there had been advice from long ago

255
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:35,680
that couldn't take any of this infrastructure over around or under the river.

256
00:28:40,795 --> 00:28:43,090
but now, based on this report, [inaudible] is saying that that can be done.

257
00:28:46,585 --> 00:28:49,615
steps can start to be moving forward to envision whatever needs to be done for the west denton,

258
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whether it's area 1, area 2, everything that was covered in the study.

259
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,470
>> okay. >> scott, is the second street pump station,

260
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is that the one near siesta? >> yes. >> it would have to go all the way.

261
00:29:10,405 --> 00:29:14,020
that's pretty lengthy. >> it'll get there by gravity. [overlapping]

262
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>> at a certain point, okay. Roughly, cost-benefit analysis,

263
00:29:21,790 --> 00:29:23,680
you didn't really look at that too much. But how many edus are in the village?

264
00:29:26,740 --> 00:29:26,740
does it say that in the report?

265
00:29:33,420 --> 00:29:33,420
it doesn't make sense to go through the expense of born the river and putting

266
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:37,720
all that infrastructure in for a limited number of edus in the village only.

267
00:29:42,340 --> 00:29:45,880
>> from a cost perspective, you're right. But if nde or usda got behind it,

268
00:29:49,825 --> 00:29:49,825
it may make sense because of the environmental impact.

269
00:29:54,025 --> 00:29:54,025
although there are septic tanks over there.

270
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>> I think there are a few holding tanks as well.

271
00:30:02,290 --> 00:30:04,705
>> yes. If you look at the environmental impact, how do you put a dollar on that?

272
00:30:07,510 --> 00:30:07,510
that's my thought. I know that the end result costs were high per edu, and I don't know.

273
00:30:13,710 --> 00:30:16,980
>> it's just like 32. >> thirty two edus. >> yeah. I think that's projected.

274
00:30:18,975 --> 00:30:22,080
>> do you have a figure of how many edus that crossing the river with the utilities could support?

275
00:30:30,630 --> 00:30:30,630
>> no, not necessarily. We looked at both whether it could do one or the other.

276
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,630
we don't really have a number in between. It's easy to do. We can certainly do that for the future.

277
00:30:40,810 --> 00:30:44,275
>> to figure out how many edus they're existing. It's limited by the pump station.

278
00:30:46,420 --> 00:30:48,270
[overlapping] >> your gallons was 10 liters per day.

279
00:30:52,070 --> 00:30:52,070
that's not a scary number for the town as far as operations are concerned.

280
00:30:58,500 --> 00:31:01,200
there's the political side of this that I can't speak to, but for operations that's a doable number.

281
00:31:04,965 --> 00:31:08,160
for the village. The rest of them well. >> the expansion of the village,

282
00:31:10,555 --> 00:31:13,270
it doesn't leave a lot of room. That's what my curiosity is. How much room is there for expansion or further development around the village?

283
00:31:18,220 --> 00:31:21,175
>> there was a little bit of a space that's a graveyard. >> yes. That's not going anywhere. There's not a whole lot.

284
00:31:23,890 --> 00:31:23,890
I think they said that there was 16 existing homes and there's room for another 16.

285
00:31:31,570 --> 00:31:35,260
>> okay. Are you counting the warehouses as well? >> no. I think that's in the second area.

286
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:43,510
>> mr. Porter is talking about the warehouses down on the waterfront? That would include those.

287
00:31:45,250 --> 00:31:47,160
>> yes. >> but it would not include [inaudible],

288
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:53,130
all the industrial, commercial out on 328.

289
00:31:55,545 --> 00:31:58,560
>> not without great expense. That's correct. >> yes. >> right. >> that's, right now they're not using much water potentially.

290
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:04,960
it's hard there's no meters, there's no public water, so we don't know exactly what anybody's using out there.

291
00:32:07,210 --> 00:32:10,530
we use mde. There's flow factors that you use

292
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:14,560
based on acres or based on use or based on number of seats in a restaurant.

293
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:19,320
in town those are easy because they got the meter readings.

294
00:32:23,845 --> 00:32:27,595
but outside there you have to make estimates, you have to project. Then we project for the planning purpose if it's redeveloped into papers.

295
00:32:34,030 --> 00:32:34,030
>> incorporated in the village you have included the yacht club,

296
00:32:39,115 --> 00:32:42,145
the boat club, all that. Flows are measured. >> yes. >> okay.

297
00:32:43,465 --> 00:32:43,465
>> this has been about a 25-year discussion.

298
00:32:47,650 --> 00:32:51,295
it predates even me being on the board here. I know that several years ago there was actually a lawsuit between the town and county.

299
00:32:59,710 --> 00:33:02,950
to be honest, I can't remember which one didn't want this, but I know that there was a reason that some of that property was annexed into town.

300
00:33:09,865 --> 00:33:09,865
the proposal at that time was the development of a very large

301
00:33:16,830 --> 00:33:16,830
what they called at that time, over 55 development.

302
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:25,480
I think the concern was that the proposed development

303
00:33:31,390 --> 00:33:31,390
would have doubled the size of the town in one swoop.

304
00:33:37,975 --> 00:33:37,975
there was some concern about the pressure that

305
00:33:43,930 --> 00:33:43,930
that was going to put on all facilities, schools, ems, fire.

306
00:33:53,340 --> 00:33:56,380
I can't remember who won that suit, to be honest with you, but it wouldn't be hard to go back and look.

307
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:01,800
the proposal here would be limited as far as

308
00:34:10,870 --> 00:34:10,870
development because you say there's capacity for

309
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:14,920
the 16 houses and an additional 32. Is that what you said?

310
00:34:19,240 --> 00:34:22,480
>> yes. It's limited by what the current zoning is. If somebody came in and was able to rezone it,

311
00:34:25,450 --> 00:34:25,450
then that would have to be part of the process looking at the facilities again.

312
00:34:29,485 --> 00:34:30,850
but yes, right now, it's limited by what would be allowed by this area.

313
00:34:35,350 --> 00:34:35,350
>> typically, state and federal assistance would restrict the ability

314
00:34:40,270 --> 00:34:40,270
to expand and have new connection other than pre-existing.

315
00:34:44,935 --> 00:34:48,660
>> right. >> some of your critical areas and so on. >> [overlapping] absolutely. All of those constraints, yeah.

316
00:34:52,940 --> 00:34:52,940
>> what would be the next step if we wanted to move forward to pursue this?

317
00:34:57,975 --> 00:35:00,795
what will be the next step to do this, to start this process if I wanted to?

318
00:35:05,125 --> 00:35:07,630
>> that's a good question. The only reason I'm involved is because of the technical side of this.

319
00:35:11,220 --> 00:35:14,860
I think we've worked that out with the county's help. We know it's feasible. It can be done.

320
00:35:17,455 --> 00:35:17,455
the next step in my opinion would be to have discussions with town council if

321
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:21,640
everybody wants to move forward because it's a political decision.

322
00:35:26,125 --> 00:35:29,455
we figured out that from an engineering perspective, it can be done and even how it can be done.

323
00:35:35,310 --> 00:35:38,095
I'm happy to facilitate that, to keep helping you do that.

324
00:35:43,620 --> 00:35:46,885
>> leslie, sorry to put you on the spot, but would this be in conflict with the north county sewer?

325
00:35:56,575 --> 00:36:00,520
would they be competing with each other? They would fund one or the other or what's your thoughts on that?

326
00:36:04,210 --> 00:36:07,840
>> potentially, but that really is a matter of timing because this will be eligible because failing septics for various duration fund money,

327
00:36:12,490 --> 00:36:15,520
and those are done annually. We are in the pipeline perpetually for up north.

328
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:23,245
this would be apart from that and depending on approval status of it. I don't think that it would.

329
00:36:27,130 --> 00:36:30,610
>> it's not a either or. They could both be. >> it's not a huge number of homes to connect.

330
00:36:33,865 --> 00:36:36,340
usda and nde funding, which it would be eligible for, again,

331
00:36:39,700 --> 00:36:39,700
it's relatively small compared to [noise] [inaudible] the additional edu potential,

332
00:36:46,615 --> 00:36:49,480
because it's in a priority funding area, it is eligible to have

333
00:36:53,470 --> 00:36:53,470
a low appropriation of up to 20% of the existing edu.

334
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,490
if there's 30 then in that, they would allow you to build it and size it for

335
00:37:07,090 --> 00:37:10,195
an additional 20% of the existing number of edus. There's a little bit of rope available.

336
00:37:14,155 --> 00:37:14,155
that point about having to size the system based on mde guidance,

337
00:37:18,700 --> 00:37:21,985
which I think is 250 gallons a day for edu, is a generous, conservative number.

338
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,160
once you start using actual clothes, depending on the number of people in the house,

339
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:30,400
that number tends to be lower, so there's a little more room for connections.

340
00:37:33,610 --> 00:37:36,235
>> once you get proof of actual flow. >>right. There isn't a hard cut-off for only those [inaudible] [noise]

341
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:40,120
>> the cost of doing this,

342
00:37:44,605 --> 00:37:44,605
just adding up the existing homes and staff up there in the edus.

343
00:37:49,795 --> 00:37:53,590
is it less than it would be to just to go ahead and build a new wastewater treatment plant over on that side?

344
00:37:57,010 --> 00:37:59,425
that way you can expand. >> I didn't look at that, but yes,

345
00:38:01,060 --> 00:38:04,360
I would say it's sense [overlapping] >> this would be like a start that, hey,

346
00:38:06,550 --> 00:38:06,550
we're fixing the existing wells and the sewers on that end,

347
00:38:11,565 --> 00:38:11,565
getting that all straight and then another 25 years then we can.

348
00:38:16,140 --> 00:38:18,360
>> [overlapping] what I'm hearing, with a little bit of room for expansion redevelopment.

349
00:38:21,690 --> 00:38:21,690
but this is not a permanent fix or permanent expansion to the other side of the river.

350
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,610
>> I think it is for the village. >> yes. >> yes, to the village. >> because I know there's concerns about

351
00:38:31,930 --> 00:38:35,905
the high school too and this doesn't address that. >> right. >> got you. >> having been through this one time with the jonestown water project.

352
00:38:46,580 --> 00:38:46,580
one of the problems is going to be that when that system gets there,

353
00:38:51,210 --> 00:38:51,210
those people will be required to hook in.

354
00:38:55,470 --> 00:38:57,480
there will be costs, there will be ongoing costs.

355
00:38:59,850 --> 00:39:02,970
it's going to be a situation where people were going to say I've got good system here, why should I have to spend?

356
00:39:06,555 --> 00:39:09,030
that's what we're going to hear because I've heard that before. But that's a political discussion that we're going to have.

357
00:39:12,885 --> 00:39:15,660
but I think the cost-benefit analysis on this thing, I mean, we're talking about 32 additional units.

358
00:39:20,690 --> 00:39:23,640
what's your ballpark number? >> what the costs would be?

359
00:39:28,190 --> 00:39:28,190
one of the things that we've done and we're working on a project in frederick,

360
00:39:33,315 --> 00:39:35,490
but that's always the concern, what you said. You bring it there and then you tell people to have to hook

361
00:39:37,710 --> 00:39:41,490
up and this is the first time [overlapping]. >> you will have people who want to. >> you do. >> but you're always going to have some people who don't.

362
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:46,455
>> we do have somebody who just spent $20 on a new septic system and that's happened every time. What frederick county did was they got mde funding,

363
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:53,475
the big restoration fund to actually hook everybody up. They got I think it was $20,000 in the home to hook everybody up.

364
00:39:57,270 --> 00:40:01,140
now, there's still going to have monthly bills and quarterly bills, but at least that was the answer for that question in frederick county.

365
00:40:05,970 --> 00:40:09,660
they had additional funding, but then they got the big restoration funding to actually hook up the sewer.

366
00:40:15,740 --> 00:40:19,740
>> the big restoration only applies to the sewer fyi? >> correct. That's correct.

367
00:40:21,705 --> 00:40:22,560
>> not water? >> correct. 1.7 million was the cost.

368
00:40:33,570 --> 00:40:33,570
>> what is the normal local share of that?

369
00:40:38,390 --> 00:40:41,430
>> depends on the funding the usda it could be loan and there could be portions that could be grant.

370
00:40:49,050 --> 00:40:51,510
I'm not sure what the funding is. I know for the treatment plant that's different.

371
00:40:53,850 --> 00:40:57,675
>> they have systems. I don't want to say algorithms,

372
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:03,165
but they had a system that they plug in a lot of information. That's how they underwrite.

373
00:41:05,415 --> 00:41:05,415
they come up with percentage loan or percentage grant.

374
00:41:09,970 --> 00:41:13,865
the worse off you are the better deal you get. That's not the case for mde they do it differently.

375
00:41:17,525 --> 00:41:21,510
>> what kind of system was that budget based on? Was that a low-pressure dose grinder for each unit

376
00:41:23,820 --> 00:41:26,130
or is that gravity to the central pump? >> it's gravity to central pump.

377
00:41:27,825 --> 00:41:31,050
>> your number was what I'm sorry? >> 1.7 million. >> 1.7.

378
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,715
>> it's not bad as that's just sewer. >> that's just sewer. >> it's not as bad as I thought.

379
00:41:44,720 --> 00:41:44,720
>> do the whole thing.

380
00:41:55,250 --> 00:41:55,250
the water was 2.8 million.

381
00:42:03,110 --> 00:42:03,110
>> water was more.

382
00:42:08,570 --> 00:42:12,570
well, I think personally my opinion is we should convey this over to the town and get their feedback.

383
00:42:15,810 --> 00:42:19,425
is the council willing to entertain this? >> that's about 100,000.

384
00:42:21,345 --> 00:42:24,380
>> hook up? >> yes. >> it's expensive septic.

385
00:42:26,460 --> 00:42:28,110
>> it's expensive. [laughter] >> in jonestown, my suggestion was putting new well in for everybody.

386
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:32,160
but they wouldn't accept it.

387
00:42:38,030 --> 00:42:41,250
I think we got to talk. >> can I share the kprs with the council?

388
00:42:45,420 --> 00:42:48,780
>> absolutely. >> I mean, that's where the conversation starts. Are they willing to entertain this because ultimately they would have

389
00:42:51,870 --> 00:42:51,870
to accept annexation and extending utilities?

390
00:42:57,440 --> 00:42:59,670
>> that's where I need to start. It's to share reports and then go from there.

391
00:43:02,205 --> 00:43:04,440
>> get their feedback if they're willing. >> I think they are but I don't want to speak out of turn.

392
00:43:07,410 --> 00:43:10,605
>> no. I think we are, I am. You? Little different situation here than jonestown at waterfront.

393
00:43:15,635 --> 00:43:15,635
>> willing to talk. Then we got to decide who pays what share.

394
00:43:21,695 --> 00:43:25,270
that'd be fun to do. But we can talk. >> good. Well,

395
00:43:30,770 --> 00:43:34,070
thank you for coming over. Thank you, scott, debbie. Nice to meet you, rob. That was good.

396
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:46,805
>> for a few more minutes. >> next up we have robbie gill,

397
00:43:48,710 --> 00:43:48,710
ceo of ymca of the chesapeake,

398
00:43:52,865 --> 00:43:56,125
for a discussion of a potential new ymca facility. >> good morning, commissioners.

399
00:43:57,405 --> 00:43:59,040
>> good morning, robbie. How are you, sir? >> good. I appreciate you guys giving me a few minutes.

400
00:44:01,935 --> 00:44:01,935
I just wanted to provide an update on the ymca and the work that we're doing.

401
00:44:08,850 --> 00:44:11,910
the y is not for profit 501c3. We have been on the eastern shore since 1857 so we've been around for a while.

402
00:44:15,765 --> 00:44:15,765
we serve 50,000 folks up and down the eastern shore as far north as elkton,

403
00:44:20,565 --> 00:44:20,565
and as far south as chincoteague in 11 different facilities.

404
00:44:24,675 --> 00:44:27,495
the ymca here in caroline county, that's in the strip center was opened in the fall of 2011.

405
00:44:31,230 --> 00:44:31,230
we had about 1,000 residents that were regularly traveling to eastern and

406
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:36,000
wanted to try to establish a presence within the community and we're able to do that.

407
00:44:41,250 --> 00:44:44,910
today we serve about 3,500 folks in the county. The y here provides the mentoring program for the community, middle-school programming,

408
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:53,370
chronic disease programs for folks with parkinson's, battling cancer, balance and stability classes.

409
00:44:56,535 --> 00:44:59,490
there were three boys that passed away in the marshyhope river from the haitian community in federalsburg in 2012.

410
00:45:03,915 --> 00:45:06,960
we began doing water safety programming with federalsburg elementary busing kids to eastern and still work at that to this day.

411
00:45:12,180 --> 00:45:14,880
as you guys know, there is no aquatics facility in this community and so that's a gap for sure.

412
00:45:18,105 --> 00:45:20,640
we, over the years have been working towards a strategy to build a ymca in this community,

413
00:45:23,370 --> 00:45:25,155
be able to provide those amenities, and have had moments where we thought we had some traction back in

414
00:45:29,310 --> 00:45:29,310
the day when joe sheehan was the ceo of choptank community health.

415
00:45:33,495 --> 00:45:36,120
we thought maybe we would be co-located there at their site, but that didn't work out.

416
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:40,710
had some conversations with the girl scouts at camp todd. Then the double hills site 2018 had conversations with the commissioners and actually had

417
00:45:47,370 --> 00:45:47,370
an agreement in place and begin navigating annexation of water and sewer to that site,

418
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:56,175
as well as some other challenges. Then the pandemic hit.

419
00:45:59,270 --> 00:46:03,045
prior to the pandemic in june of 2019, we opened a ymca in st. Michael's,

420
00:46:04,950 --> 00:46:08,820
maryland, and there was a foundation that was supportive of that project. They asked us at that time what our next projects

421
00:46:12,060 --> 00:46:15,390
were that we wanted to tackle and we said caroline county and queen anne's county. They gave us in july of 2019 $2.5

422
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:19,560
million gift for caroline county and a $2.5 gift for queen anne's county.

423
00:46:25,110 --> 00:46:28,800
we spent most of the pandemic while we were doing meal delivery in this community in a variety of other programs.

424
00:46:32,850 --> 00:46:35,415
we were also working on fundraising efforts. The county has always stated that if we could build a ymca in caroline county,

425
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:42,120
we would have a senior center within that facility. We have that in st. Michael's and it's a great model and then

426
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:45,600
we just opened a y queen anne's has the same model as well.

427
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:51,600
it was interesting in that while we were working on the project in this community,

428
00:46:56,410 --> 00:47:00,100
we were battling some challenges with the site as well as, there's an $800,000 grant you can apply for through

429
00:47:03,580 --> 00:47:06,700
the department of aging to help with the senior center project. We requested, through the county administrator to support to do that

430
00:47:11,130 --> 00:47:11,130
as well as a little bit of funding and that fell to the wayside.

431
00:47:15,270 --> 00:47:15,270
in queen anne's county, we did the same thing and were able to secure that.

432
00:47:19,700 --> 00:47:19,700
three years later we opened that y in queen anne's county, october 10th.

433
00:47:25,225 --> 00:47:28,360
we're still at ground zero here. We actually gave that two-and-a-half million dollars

434
00:47:30,550 --> 00:47:33,145
back to the foundation to say, hey, look, there will come a time when we need this money,

435
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:38,545
but if you have something else to use it for now please do. I think, they're very supportive of the work,

436
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:41,200
the y does in this particular community and so we're still a dozen years in,

437
00:47:48,460 --> 00:47:51,130
we're still at a space where we haven't quite figured it out, but it's a priority for our organization to build a ymca in this community.

438
00:47:56,380 --> 00:47:56,380
that would be a full facility that kids and families and adults can benefit from.

439
00:48:01,135 --> 00:48:04,060
then the amenities this community is missing, that we would have them, to where every kid can learn to swim,

440
00:48:06,145 --> 00:48:09,700
and you have a variety of programs for kids and adults. With the y that we just opened in queen anne's county has a 70,000 square foot facility.

441
00:48:15,205 --> 00:48:17,860
there's about 300 kids that walk across the street from the high school every day to that facility.

442
00:48:20,470 --> 00:48:20,470
we need something like that in this community and that gift along with

443
00:48:27,430 --> 00:48:31,390
support locally and know how the divine intervention led to the ymca raising $22 1/2 million for that project to be debt-free.

444
00:48:35,890 --> 00:48:38,740
as you probably know, the ymca provides financial assistance, so there is never any financial limitation to participate.

445
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:42,640
no one is ever turned away and that's one of the things that we pride ourselves on.

446
00:48:46,930 --> 00:48:50,845
it is a place where the collective community comes together. Commissioner porter and I had a chance to catch up and talk.

447
00:48:54,010 --> 00:48:57,535
he was a commissioner at the time when we were trying to navigate the site. I think the bigger fight at the time was over parking here right by the courthouse.

448
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:05,320
I'm not sure if that's been resolved or not. >> I'm still working on it. Don't know how long we're doing that.

449
00:49:08,290 --> 00:49:10,705
>> you got this, you can do it. We're still as committed as ever,

450
00:49:13,810 --> 00:49:17,020
and I'm blessed to serve this community. I think, I would just ask that as

451
00:49:19,240 --> 00:49:22,060
you navigate all the things that you're working through, if you see an opportunity where there may be the right spot,

452
00:49:25,270 --> 00:49:25,270
proximity to a school can always be a huge help because it gives a place for kids to be.

453
00:49:31,510 --> 00:49:34,975
we've looked at the southern states site with the town in the past, new challenges there, the road.

454
00:49:37,300 --> 00:49:40,540
for kids and people on bikes that are trying to access it, that could be a little treacherous.

455
00:49:42,670 --> 00:49:45,235
you're trying to have proximity for communities that may have limited access and capacity.

456
00:49:49,135 --> 00:49:51,670
being right in the middle of town can always be helpful, but would love to in the future,

457
00:49:54,220 --> 00:49:56,560
continue to work with the commissioners to figure that out. That's a goal.

458
00:49:58,585 --> 00:50:01,060
rick barton serves on our corporate board, as well as derek simmons.

459
00:50:03,205 --> 00:50:05,950
david nagle is on our finance committee, and passport member, keith mcmahon.

460
00:50:08,530 --> 00:50:11,860
this is a wonderful community and we would love to do more, we just haven't quite figured out where and how to do that just yet.

461
00:50:16,165 --> 00:50:16,165
>> I thought we're in very early discussions about potentially a new middle school.

462
00:50:24,235 --> 00:50:27,040
don't everybody run with that? It is early conversations.

463
00:50:29,740 --> 00:50:29,740
if that is the next major project that the school board would like to pursue.

464
00:50:34,495 --> 00:50:34,495
that may free up the lockerman middle school area for a partial fit there down the road.

465
00:50:43,500 --> 00:50:43,500
>> I appreciate the opportunity, and again,

466
00:50:47,875 --> 00:50:50,860
we're grateful to be able to serve and anything we can do to help you guys make a bigger difference we're here to do it.

467
00:50:54,475 --> 00:50:57,025
>> how many acres is the queen anne one on? >> it's on 16 acres.

468
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:00,850
that's a unique site for us. The y that's located in st. Michael's is actually

469
00:51:04,150 --> 00:51:07,480
on school property at st. Michael's high school and middle school, and it's a 20,000 square foot site,

470
00:51:11,020 --> 00:51:11,020
so it's a much smaller walk serving a much smaller community.

471
00:51:15,070 --> 00:51:15,070
typically you need 8-10 acres to make

472
00:51:19,090 --> 00:51:23,080
that work though we have a y in chestertown that's on seven, the y in eastern's on seven.

473
00:51:24,895 --> 00:51:24,895
it really just depends, if you are co-locating a y with a middle school,

474
00:51:29,245 --> 00:51:29,245
it's a really good example is where you're sharing field space.

475
00:51:34,810 --> 00:51:38,380
you build the middle school is here, the y is here, the gymnasium is in the middle, or the pool is in the middle.

476
00:51:39,715 --> 00:51:39,715
that shared space is used throughout the school day for programming for the school,

477
00:51:44,740 --> 00:51:46,585
and then it's used by the y in the afternoon. There are a lot of different ways to tackle that.

478
00:51:49,750 --> 00:51:52,300
but proximity is always great because you're eliminating transportation challenges and access.

479
00:51:55,645 --> 00:51:55,645
all I say it's really easy to snuggle up with it and love on a five-year-old,

480
00:51:59,770 --> 00:52:01,720
when they get to be 12 or 13 they're a little gangly and not as many people are as excited,

481
00:52:04,510 --> 00:52:04,510
so that middle school age is a great age to make sure you have space for

482
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:09,040
those kids to be in and connect and be around positive role models.

483
00:52:15,330 --> 00:52:15,330
>> do you have any square footage and calls projections for a facility here?

484
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:25,840
>> yes. It would need to be similar to what we built in queen anne's county, which is a 70,000 square foot

485
00:52:27,460 --> 00:52:31,360
facility designed to where it could also be a senior center too. That project costs us $22.6 million,

486
00:52:35,110 --> 00:52:35,110
so let's say you figured it out over the next few years,

487
00:52:40,930 --> 00:52:40,930
you're probably in the $25 million range.

488
00:52:45,540 --> 00:52:48,760
if you asked me 10 years ago, could we raise that kind of money? I'd have said no, but we've connected

489
00:52:52,300 --> 00:52:56,140
to some folks that really believe in the work we're doing and see the impact, and so it's totally possible.

490
00:52:57,880 --> 00:53:00,895
you just have to have everyone pulling in the right direction. >> did that include land purchase?

491
00:53:04,240 --> 00:53:07,285
>> the county donated the land in queen anne's county. In st. Michael's,

492
00:53:08,590 --> 00:53:11,575
because it's on school property, there's a 99 year lease there. >> right.

493
00:53:12,775 --> 00:53:16,480
>> typically, if you can figure that out without purchasing land, it can be helpful because then you can put

494
00:53:18,130 --> 00:53:20,950
your donated resources towards building the building. The state has been supportive.

495
00:53:22,660 --> 00:53:22,660
governor hogan was supportive of the st. Michael's project,

496
00:53:26,755 --> 00:53:26,755
the chestertown project, salisbury project.

497
00:53:31,165 --> 00:53:34,930
governor moore supported the project in queen anne's. If you think about it, if you're raising $16 million in

498
00:53:38,140 --> 00:53:41,320
private contributions and the state can help on the back-end, that's a pretty good win for them as far as not having to carry the load,

499
00:53:45,730 --> 00:53:48,730
but can be the winners at the end to help make it happen. >> again, at one point,

500
00:53:51,580 --> 00:53:55,015
we were talking about an indoor and outdoor pool, correct? >> yes.

501
00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:55,960
>> I think, one of the holdups before was what we just talked about,

502
00:54:00,010 --> 00:54:00,010
availability of edus and water and so on,

503
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:08,065
which have to come through the town. >> I think the component to that was that,

504
00:54:10,585 --> 00:54:13,360
you had the emergency services center, I think it's still on septic.

505
00:54:15,205 --> 00:54:16,360
>> [inaudible] department. >> yes, sir, and so

506
00:54:20,310 --> 00:54:24,280
town leadership at the time really wanted that whole site to be annexed and then you had new access and some other components,

507
00:54:27,325 --> 00:54:27,325
it was complicated and then the town was looking

508
00:54:31,540 --> 00:54:31,540
to apply for cbg money that could maybe provide some infrastructure.

509
00:54:35,890 --> 00:54:35,890
as I said, it wasn't as easy as is lift as you would like it to be,

510
00:54:41,380 --> 00:54:43,390
and so that created some challenges. >> I think [inaudible] might be a little bit different.

511
00:54:45,385 --> 00:54:47,065
>> that's great. That's amazing. That's wonderful. Sometimes it just takes awhile.

512
00:54:50,965 --> 00:54:54,265
it took us 17 years to build the y in queen anne's county, 12 to build st. Michael's,

513
00:54:56,590 --> 00:55:00,475
but all the chips fell into place in chestertown and we built that one in three. As I said, if you get a little lucky and get everybody on the same page, it can happen.

514
00:55:06,055 --> 00:55:09,040
>> was there any county contributions other than the property itself in either one of those two projects financially?

515
00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:16,900
>> the project in st. Michael's is a much smaller y, it was only an eight-and-a-half million dollar project.

516
00:55:19,360 --> 00:55:23,335
the land was provided through a lease agreement and the county provided a small gift and helped us secure that $800,000 grant.

517
00:55:28,900 --> 00:55:31,525
>> for the aging. >> yeah. Queen anne's county, because it has that senior center piece that's operating five days a week,

518
00:55:35,290 --> 00:55:35,290
the county contributed three-and-a-half million dollars and then donated that parcel of

519
00:55:39,970 --> 00:55:39,970
land and then helped us secure that $800,000 grant there as well.

520
00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:50,740
>> good? >> good to see. >> thank you for coming in. >> good to see you too. >> thank you for working on one in here in carolina.

521
00:55:52,900 --> 00:55:56,155
>> thank you, sir. >> really important to us. >> I'll need a five minute. >> at this time, we'll take a five-minute recess and then we'll go into our

522
00:56:01,975 --> 00:56:01,975
>> you're terrible.

523
01:04:47,450 --> 01:04:47,450
>> our next action item is resolution number 2023-025.

524
01:04:55,200 --> 01:04:55,200
stewart, do you mind giving us a synopsis of what this moratorium will actually do?

525
01:05:02,830 --> 01:05:02,830
duration, public hearing, and application.

526
01:05:09,745 --> 01:05:09,745
>> well, the current version we've got that we worked on as late as yesterday

527
01:05:15,715 --> 01:05:15,715
is only for a 60-day moratorium on these facilities,

528
01:05:22,030 --> 01:05:22,030
which we defined as facilities that have this daf residual in it,

529
01:05:31,525 --> 01:05:35,350
which is basically animal waste byproduct that is being shipped into the county and stored in open-air containers or lagoons,

530
01:05:40,495 --> 01:05:40,495
which are constituting a nuisance to neighboring properties with infestation of flies

531
01:05:47,125 --> 01:05:47,125
and various adjectives for the odor a very bad odor,

532
01:05:54,835 --> 01:05:54,835
which constitutes obviously a nuisance to the neighboring properties.

533
01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:00,040
we have looked at wicomico county's ordinance, which they've enacted.

534
01:06:05,880 --> 01:06:05,880
this moratorium would give the commissioners an opportunity to study the issue,

535
01:06:12,175 --> 01:06:12,175
schedule a public hearing in approximately 4-5 weeks.

536
01:06:17,460 --> 01:06:17,460
this would be probably third week of january.

537
01:06:22,230 --> 01:06:26,215
the issue for the commissioners today is to decide whether or not you want to issue a moratorium at this time,

538
01:06:30,670 --> 01:06:30,670
or whether you wish to study the issue a little bit more, hold a public hearing,

539
01:06:37,090 --> 01:06:37,090
and then decide on a moratorium pending the enactment of legislation,

540
01:06:43,015 --> 01:06:46,000
a new ordinance which would address these things because the storage of these materials is not regulated by the state.

541
01:06:54,210 --> 01:06:54,210
the application is, but not the storage.

542
01:06:58,225 --> 01:06:58,225
>> right. Thank you, stewart.

543
01:07:02,275 --> 01:07:04,990
it's my understanding that we have a mr. Cropper here and a couple of representatives from denali.

544
01:07:07,765 --> 01:07:10,645
if you would like to come forward, we will have an opportunity for

545
01:07:13,870 --> 01:07:13,870
these representatives to present us with some information here and then

546
01:07:18,370 --> 01:07:22,030
we will open it up to public comment after we hear from these representatives. Good morning.

547
01:07:25,825 --> 01:07:27,805
>> good morning. Thank you. For the record, my name is mark cropper I'm a partner in the law firm ayres,

548
01:07:32,770 --> 01:07:34,120
jenkins, gordy & almand. I represent denali water solutions llc,

549
01:07:37,660 --> 01:07:37,660
which I think most people in this room probably have some familiarity with.

550
01:07:43,530 --> 01:07:43,530
I first became aware of this issue about two days ago.

551
01:07:48,655 --> 01:07:51,190
I'm sure there are many in this room that have a lot more detail about this particular debate than I do.

552
01:07:55,630 --> 01:07:59,200
but when I was first contacted by my client because I do have familiarity with daf-related disputes.

553
01:08:04,915 --> 01:08:08,800
I was involved in wicomico county dispute. I was involved in the legislation that wicomico county ultimately adopted.

554
01:08:14,110 --> 01:08:17,875
I shared with mr. Barroll yesterday, a legal memorandum that I prepared for

555
01:08:21,130 --> 01:08:21,130
the benefit of the commissioners on this particular issue.

556
01:08:25,375 --> 01:08:27,610
I don't intend to get into a big legal debate here today because I don't think it's the proper forum,

557
01:08:29,905 --> 01:08:29,905
which is why I supplied your council with that legal memorandum yesterday.

558
01:08:34,390 --> 01:08:34,390
the principal points in that memorandum had to do with preemption.

559
01:08:39,445 --> 01:08:39,445
it's my position here as well as it was in wicomico county,

560
01:08:44,125 --> 01:08:44,125
that the state of maryland has preempted this field regarding the regulation of daf.

561
01:08:48,595 --> 01:08:48,595
I respectfully disagree with your council that it doesn't extend to storage.

562
01:08:52,615 --> 01:08:52,615
I believe it does extend the storage and I addressed that in the memorandum.

563
01:08:57,700 --> 01:08:57,700
in one of my conversations with mr. Barroll yesterday,

564
01:09:02,170 --> 01:09:05,950
am I saying your name correctly? >> barroll. >> barroll. Thank you. He did ask that I try to have some representatives of denali here

565
01:09:11,140 --> 01:09:11,140
today to answer some questions that you commissioners may have that may be site-specific,

566
01:09:17,050 --> 01:09:17,050
may not, but I'm just not familiar with all the individual sites that may be of concern.

567
01:09:23,065 --> 01:09:26,110
not only to you commissioners but some of the people in the audience. I have with me glenn dowling,

568
01:09:28,495 --> 01:09:30,475
who is with denali, as well as samantha pope.

569
01:09:32,530 --> 01:09:32,530
samantha probably has more information regarding specific details.

570
01:09:39,605 --> 01:09:39,605
I have them here to do their best to answer your questions.

571
01:09:43,765 --> 01:09:47,635
with regard to the process that you've undertaken with regard to this moratorium, I would say this,

572
01:09:49,345 --> 01:09:53,080
that under moratorium law, and as I stated in my memorandum,

573
01:09:57,120 --> 01:10:00,730
maryland law is and I'm going to be real short on this, but maryland law is pretty clear on what is necessary to impose a moratorium.

574
01:10:08,500 --> 01:10:11,365
I don't think in this instance, it meets those qualifications.

575
01:10:16,200 --> 01:10:19,765
because again, the state of maryland, I believe, has addressed many of the issues that you intend to

576
01:10:22,420 --> 01:10:25,180
address during the period of your moratorium ie investigating the issues

577
01:10:28,780 --> 01:10:32,410
surrounding not only the storage but the land application of daf. Because the state of maryland has already addressed that specifically in its statute,

578
01:10:38,215 --> 01:10:38,215
I believe caroline county you commissioners can certainly investigate this.

579
01:10:42,310 --> 01:10:43,855
you have every right to do so. I just don't think it's necessary to impose a moratorium while you do so.

580
01:10:48,550 --> 01:10:48,550
I would also asked you to please consider before you impose a moratorium,

581
01:10:53,230 --> 01:10:56,860
have the public hearing. Have a public hearing first and let anybody and everybody that has an interest in this matter of

582
01:10:59,470 --> 01:10:59,470
calm and present evidence to you before you impose a moratorium.

583
01:11:04,780 --> 01:11:04,780
moratorium has very significant and immediate impacts on a lot of people.

584
01:11:09,475 --> 01:11:09,475
I would most respectfully caution you not to do that

585
01:11:14,950 --> 01:11:17,740
until after you've completed some investigation and the public has had a right to be heard.

586
01:11:21,070 --> 01:11:21,070
my client, denali, is more than willing to voluntarily and

587
01:11:25,690 --> 01:11:25,690
cooperatively as quickly as you want to communicate with you,

588
01:11:30,805 --> 01:11:33,940
your staff, your consultant, answer questions, provide whatever information you want as part of that process.

589
01:11:38,170 --> 01:11:38,170
but once you adopt moratorium,

590
01:11:42,265 --> 01:11:42,265
this goes in a whole different from a legal perspective that quite candidly,

591
01:11:47,785 --> 01:11:50,995
we don't want I don't want. Even though the draft moratorium has been modified

592
01:11:55,450 --> 01:11:55,450
from a year to 60 days, it's christmas.

593
01:12:00,655 --> 01:12:03,610
I really don't want to work over the next 2-3 weeks, quite honestly and my wife is going to be really upset with me if I have to work over

594
01:12:08,200 --> 01:12:08,200
the holidays to address the legal concerns of my client regarding this moratorium.

595
01:12:13,480 --> 01:12:15,910
if there was an urgency, if there was an immediate need that I was

596
01:12:20,440 --> 01:12:20,440
aware you need to address that quickly probably I wouldn't be sitting here saying this.

597
01:12:25,885 --> 01:12:27,475
I don't think there is. Maybe I'll learn about it here today as part of this proceeding.

598
01:12:30,595 --> 01:12:30,595
I don't think there is an urgency that necessitates the moratorium,

599
01:12:34,840 --> 01:12:34,840
but fully welcome and fully support the investigation you want to undertake.

600
01:12:39,970 --> 01:12:43,270
that being said, you've heard enough from me. Mr. Dowling, would you like to address the commissioners?

601
01:12:46,615 --> 01:12:48,685
>> if I may commissioners, thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today.

602
01:12:50,800 --> 01:12:51,940
my name is glenn dowling. I'm a senior environmental manager on the advocacy team with

603
01:12:55,435 --> 01:12:55,435
denali water solutions based out of arkansas.

604
01:13:00,450 --> 01:13:04,030
I have an extensive background in federal state, and local government operations and I appreciate what you do for the county as

605
01:13:08,050 --> 01:13:09,340
I used to work for the association county commissioners of georgia as one of their legislative director,

606
01:13:12,340 --> 01:13:12,340
so I deeply appreciate the work in the service you provide to everyone here.

607
01:13:17,020 --> 01:13:19,855
denali has three priorities. One is we are a safety first company.

608
01:13:22,270 --> 01:13:24,610
second is we want to be the best value to our customers to provide continuity of service,

609
01:13:27,190 --> 01:13:30,940
and that continuity of service extends not only through growers and producers, that primarily through the processors who provide thousands of

610
01:13:33,520 --> 01:13:36,685
jobs in the food processing industry. Lastly, we worked to remain regulatory compliant at the federal state,

611
01:13:40,690 --> 01:13:43,810
and local levels because nothing could be more important. Denali is a recycler of organic matter nationwide.

612
01:13:48,145 --> 01:13:51,340
it is about resource recovery of valuable products and by-products that we upcycle into feeds, fuels, and fertilizers.

613
01:13:55,900 --> 01:13:58,525
what we're here today to talk about is that for the soil amendments of fertilizer side of our business and working with food processors.

614
01:14:03,870 --> 01:14:06,520
in speaking with nutrient recovery, we always talk about keeping those nutrients at home where they're

615
01:14:09,850 --> 01:14:13,375
produced it to support the agricultural community, where they come from.

616
01:14:15,295 --> 01:14:18,550
in speaking to this particular resolution, I'm reminded, I don't know if any of you guys been in rotary international and all,

617
01:14:22,390 --> 01:14:25,495
but we always had this four-way test that said, the truth, is it fair will build goodwill and friendships and is it beneficial to all.

618
01:14:30,400 --> 01:14:34,270
it's that fourth test that says, will it be beneficial to all concerned, that I strongly suggest this effort may not be beneficial to everyone concerned.

619
01:14:39,625 --> 01:14:41,470
in fact, there's a high probability of unintended consequences that we may not even recognize yet.

620
01:14:46,015 --> 01:14:46,015
I just want to let you know that I did watch the recording of your last meeting.

621
01:14:50,350 --> 01:14:53,590
I appreciate everyone's mr. Porter, I believe the woodward's mr. Hammer, everyone spoke passionately about this issue.

622
01:14:56,980 --> 01:15:00,400
but it's about the timing of this moratorium is pretty curious because it's being considered at

623
01:15:03,430 --> 01:15:03,430
the inception of the 2023/2024 winter new nutrient application ban

624
01:15:09,010 --> 01:15:10,660
in both maryland and delaware. What I want to point out is it's difficult to accommodate when

625
01:15:14,320 --> 01:15:14,320
that storage of those materials is essential to the continuity of service of businesses.

626
01:15:20,440 --> 01:15:24,430
state of maryland department of agriculture, others can speak to this better than I might, but it is allowed by the state to store those materials

627
01:15:27,910 --> 01:15:27,910
specifically to protect natural resources and water resources on the eastern shore.

628
01:15:31,915 --> 01:15:35,500
you hold that over those winter months because there is that ban. Also in the timing,

629
01:15:37,555 --> 01:15:39,835
we just learned of this issue last week. We just got a copy of one draft late friday afternoon.

630
01:15:44,290 --> 01:15:48,055
I'm just now seeing this new draft today. I would suggest and support what mr. Cropper just said

631
01:15:52,480 --> 01:15:52,480
about holding your public meeting prior to passing any moratorium.

632
01:15:57,730 --> 01:16:01,150
it would only give not only the public and us time to come together and express any interests and concerns,

633
01:16:04,720 --> 01:16:04,720
but it would also give us time to work with your county staff and I commit our time,

634
01:16:09,100 --> 01:16:12,190
our professional resources, and environmental compliance, and operations, and technical advice and soil science.

635
01:16:15,280 --> 01:16:19,000
I commit that to you today and we'll start as early as today if you will just introduce me and our staff to your county staff who are engaged.

636
01:16:23,830 --> 01:16:26,215
in watching that video, I learned that it was pointed out by

637
01:16:28,960 --> 01:16:32,320
county staff that you don't have a specific regulation related to egg storage tanks and I think this is what it's focused at and what we could

638
01:16:36,190 --> 01:16:36,190
potentially focus a lot of our energy to your benefit.

639
01:16:40,960 --> 01:16:40,960
it appeared that this was aimed at one specific site or one specific issue,

640
01:16:47,470 --> 01:16:51,445
and if we can help in that, we'll be glad to. I want to point out that a storage,

641
01:16:53,635 --> 01:16:53,635
again is an essential agricultural tool and supporting the life cycle of

642
01:16:58,540 --> 01:16:58,540
agricultural operations and I just want to point out that the dca,

643
01:17:03,670 --> 01:17:05,515
the delmarva chicken association, clearly articulated the direct correlation between growing feeds,

644
01:17:09,340 --> 01:17:09,340
chickens processing those chickens in the resulting capture of nutrients for recycling.

645
01:17:16,440 --> 01:17:19,900
sometimes in what we've experienced nationwide too, is that sometimes when farmers don't have access to

646
01:17:22,540 --> 01:17:25,435
these highly valuable organic residuals as an alternative to expensive chemical fertilizers,

647
01:17:29,635 --> 01:17:29,635
they use these residuals to reduce their costs and increase their yields.

648
01:17:34,960 --> 01:17:38,095
if they don't have access to these residuals, they may be forced into buying expensive chemical fertilizers,

649
01:17:41,425 --> 01:17:43,990
therefore reducing their investments and local labor, equipment, parts, maintenance, and those things.

650
01:17:47,110 --> 01:17:50,035
in some farmers we've heard, may have to actually borrow money for their annual operations costs.

651
01:17:54,460 --> 01:17:57,475
but those are some of those unintended consequences that we don't understand that might happen in the future.

652
01:18:01,470 --> 01:18:04,720
I think we all understood from the video that these products are registered with the maryland department of agriculture.

653
01:18:07,620 --> 01:18:10,260
they're applied at agronomic rates and they are prescribed by own farm nutrient management plans.

654
01:18:13,425 --> 01:18:13,425
even the citizens that spoke last week even acknowledged the value,

655
01:18:18,200 --> 01:18:20,710
the npk value as a good use of a nutrient source and a setbacks and buffers are reasonable and adhere to.

656
01:18:25,435 --> 01:18:28,315
so I would suggest four options. I think maybe three of these are more amenable than the last,

657
01:18:31,750 --> 01:18:33,790
but I'll postpone the action of the moratorium today and we'd ask that staff were amenable solutions and

658
01:18:38,470 --> 01:18:41,740
recommendations to address on-farm storage issues while developing regulations specifically related to egg storage tanks,

659
01:18:45,385 --> 01:18:46,870
related to this specific case, and steady mentioned your last meeting.

660
01:18:49,405 --> 01:18:49,405
this might address the concerns of those who recognized that this could be setting

661
01:18:55,450 --> 01:18:58,510
a precedence for future actions and potentially have a negative impact on other farm operations.

662
01:19:01,915 --> 01:19:03,535
that'd be option 1. Option 2 would be postponed the action for say, three to four months,

663
01:19:06,445 --> 01:19:08,560
work with us in stakeholder groups to identify and understand county specific storage issues and help

664
01:19:11,680 --> 01:19:14,440
develop amendable solutions while grandfathering in those existing facilities in order to serve agricultural community.

665
01:19:17,695 --> 01:19:20,530
like president breeding said in the last meeting, come to some reasonable guidelines and expectations,

666
01:19:23,500 --> 01:19:27,325
because businesses need reasonable guidelines and expectations, and that's what's beneficial to all concerned.

667
01:19:30,880 --> 01:19:34,060
I wrote this that you could postpone, that's the third option would be postponed the study for a year.

668
01:19:38,095 --> 01:19:41,830
but now I see that you've changed in this resolution is a 60 day moratorium. You could even postponed for those 60 days until a county-wide study is funded,

669
01:19:46,780 --> 01:19:49,960
the goals and objectives are clearly identified and stated and completed so that the public can review that,

670
01:19:53,650 --> 01:19:56,620
data can be reviewed, it'd be peer reviewed and stakeholders can review the study, and participate in crafting those solutions for you.

671
01:19:59,665 --> 01:19:59,665
or you can act today and potentially create and be exposed to unintended consequences.

672
01:20:04,165 --> 01:20:06,085
let me just suggest in closing, knowing these options and keeping in mind that overall narrative

673
01:20:09,100 --> 01:20:11,785
about timing potential precedent, setting potential precedents, and having unintended consequences.

674
01:20:16,150 --> 01:20:18,220
let me suggest a combination of maybe the first three that might be productive in moving forward.

675
01:20:20,650 --> 01:20:24,205
out of abundance of conservative caution, and with all due respect, I would like to offer our decades of environmental,

676
01:20:26,755 --> 01:20:29,950
technical, operational, and compliance expertise as a resource of information for your consideration.

677
01:20:33,475 --> 01:20:36,655
we want to have productive discussions over the next few months and come up with a comprehensive solution for long-term results.

678
01:20:40,105 --> 01:20:42,340
our work in caroline county and throughout maryland and nationwide provides essential services to many sectors.

679
01:20:45,520 --> 01:20:45,520
they're all important, but today I'm here to ask that you let us help identify and

680
01:20:50,770 --> 01:20:50,770
potentially implement solutions that provides continuity of service for your farmers.

681
01:20:55,615 --> 01:20:58,435
you're growers, producers, processors, and the families that are buying these products at the grocery store at a fair price.

682
01:21:03,115 --> 01:21:06,460
I appreciate your time and what's in your concerns today and your passion on this issue and with that,

683
01:21:10,300 --> 01:21:13,525
we'd like to answer any questions you might have. >> okay.

684
01:21:14,855 --> 01:21:14,855
mr. Cropper, have you challenged the wicomico county ordinance today?

685
01:21:19,470 --> 01:21:19,470
>> no. It wasn't necessary because they expressed the incorporated to provision.

686
01:21:24,540 --> 01:21:24,540
make it clear, it was prospectively applied only.

687
01:21:29,340 --> 01:21:32,040
the daf tank had issue in that case, owned by [inaudible] was not impacted by that legislation.

688
01:21:37,920 --> 01:21:37,920
even though I disagreed

689
01:21:42,615 --> 01:21:42,615
with wicomico county's legal counsel on the preemption issue as regarding storage,

690
01:21:48,300 --> 01:21:52,250
which is the same thing that your council has told you it wasn't necessary to challenge it because there was only one facility at issue, and it was grandfathered.

691
01:21:57,185 --> 01:21:59,615
which I was going to raise with you as well. Your legislation, while in some regards mirrors that of wicomico county,

692
01:22:04,525 --> 01:22:04,525
it does not include the language about it being applied prospectively only.

693
01:22:10,815 --> 01:22:13,815
however, even without that provision, quite candidly, under the caroline county zoning code,

694
01:22:16,380 --> 01:22:17,835
as well as state law. If somebody has a legal storage facility,

695
01:22:21,995 --> 01:22:25,460
which is legal today, it's being used today and you pass a moratorium saying you can't store that material in caroline county for the next 60 days.

696
01:22:29,610 --> 01:22:31,170
>> sir, I'm going to interrupt. Those storage facilities were set up for dairy and cow operations.

697
01:22:35,010 --> 01:22:37,890
they were not setup for commercial storage of daf. These pits were created for the storage of on-site produced manures, originally.

698
01:22:43,065 --> 01:22:44,910
they have been re-purposed. They do not apply to grandfather.

699
01:22:48,660 --> 01:22:48,660
>> I'm not talking about any site specific property or site-specific facility at all.

700
01:22:54,240 --> 01:22:54,240
what I'm saying is, if somebody is legally today storing

701
01:22:58,740 --> 01:22:58,740
daf material that's in compliance with state and caroline county law.

702
01:23:03,675 --> 01:23:05,850
even with the moratorium, it will become a legal non-conforming use and they will be allowed to continue doing so.

703
01:23:10,605 --> 01:23:13,320
the comments you just made, I conclude, is that caroline county doesn't believe that at a particular location,

704
01:23:17,865 --> 01:23:21,360
the storage of daf is legal. >> no, it's every location,

705
01:23:23,400 --> 01:23:25,110
and I'm not picking on one location. The pit you're referring to was built without a permit recently.

706
01:23:30,540 --> 01:23:30,540
I'm talking about all the pits throughout the county.

707
01:23:34,730 --> 01:23:34,730
>> it's your position that there is no property owner,

708
01:23:38,820 --> 01:23:38,820
no farmer anywhere in caroline county storing daf material in a legal manner today?

709
01:23:47,600 --> 01:23:47,600
>> yes. That's my opinion.

710
01:23:54,410 --> 01:23:58,095
is that tank still in operation? >> it is. >> it is. >> it is.

711
01:24:06,290 --> 01:24:06,290
>> my question would be,

712
01:24:10,590 --> 01:24:13,785
you talk about legally operating? >> yes.

713
01:24:14,655 --> 01:24:14,655
>> would you consider a facility that comes

714
01:24:18,960 --> 01:24:22,890
in and works and opens and is constructed without getting permits, would you consider that to be a legal operation?

715
01:24:25,200 --> 01:24:27,720
>> I would have to know more about how that operation. [overlapping] >> I can tell you because there were no permits obtained

716
01:24:30,975 --> 01:24:34,965
to build this facility and I'm talking about specifically, I'm going to call it the cedar lane property. Go ahead.

717
01:24:42,690 --> 01:24:45,890
>> I don't want to keep beating this horse. Myself, as council to denali,

718
01:24:49,350 --> 01:24:52,485
who was asked to be here today, I do not have individual specific familiarity with

719
01:24:56,325 --> 01:24:56,325
any of the facilities that you may have familiarity with.

720
01:25:00,570 --> 01:25:03,900
I'm speaking generally as to. [overlapping] >> here's an overarching question and I think that will probably cover everything.

721
01:25:07,500 --> 01:25:07,500
does denali go out and inspect these receiving sites before they're used?

722
01:25:13,830 --> 01:25:17,460
are they checked to make sure that the integrity of whatever the material is being dumped in will not leak into the groundwater?

723
01:25:21,000 --> 01:25:24,060
do you check to make sure that those structures were properly permitted before you put them in use?

724
01:25:28,050 --> 01:25:28,050
>> nationwide and state-by-state regulatory compliance is different.

725
01:25:32,295 --> 01:25:32,295
I wanted to point out that we adhere to all regulatory compliance as required.

726
01:25:40,725 --> 01:25:44,445
in some state it's all state dependent, but former lagoons that are nrcs qualified or built to

727
01:25:49,110 --> 01:25:49,110
nrcs standards or have clay compact linings some are required to have linings.

728
01:25:54,375 --> 01:25:58,315
I think the one you're talking about is made of concrete. I'm unaware. I haven't been there.

729
01:26:00,185 --> 01:26:00,185
I hope to go see it later today.

730
01:26:04,520 --> 01:26:04,520
but we have never had an incident that I know of,

731
01:26:11,415 --> 01:26:14,010
of any ground impact and remember, this isn't industrial waste.

732
01:26:15,930 --> 01:26:19,920
>> do you inspect? Do you go look at it and make sure it's not going to infiltrate into the groundwater? >> we would have permits.

733
01:26:21,465 --> 01:26:24,785
we don't have ground wells around them. >> does the state do that, to your knowledge? >> as far as I know, the states don't require having groundwater monitoring around them.

734
01:26:30,060 --> 01:26:32,690
>> do they look at the pit before this substance is put in to make sure it's secure? >> some states require that.

735
01:26:34,190 --> 01:26:37,020
>> some states, but maryland does not. >> I don't know. >> maryland does not regulate the storage.

736
01:26:39,030 --> 01:26:42,600
>> mda and mde do not regulate. >> another department of maryland, department of agriculture allows storage because you do have the wintertime ban.

737
01:26:47,460 --> 01:26:50,460
>> nobody monitors the pits. >> let's do this. Let's work together to find out what caroline county's concerns are and

738
01:26:54,750 --> 01:26:54,750
let's figure out what those requirements are that you would want on agricultural stores,

739
01:26:59,040 --> 01:27:02,415
whether that's a lined pit, whether that's coverage. >> we do have the ability to regulate it then,

740
01:27:04,740 --> 01:27:07,680
because the state doesn't occupy the space. >> I would have to defer to council on if you have that ability.

741
01:27:13,080 --> 01:27:16,065
but I would suggest that there are some operational, or there are some constructed materials

742
01:27:20,430 --> 01:27:20,430
that we can use to help cover or we could help maintain odors.

743
01:27:24,570 --> 01:27:26,190
there are some people who are concerned about odors. >> mr. Daley, that leads to my question.

744
01:27:33,170 --> 01:27:36,435
this board, the previous board, I think anybody will tell you we have supported agriculture in this county.

745
01:27:40,665 --> 01:27:42,690
my wife's family's farm, we own a century farm.

746
01:27:45,560 --> 01:27:45,560
but when I'm elected as a official,

747
01:27:50,580 --> 01:27:52,245
born into my fourth term, when I have people who come in to our meetings and express concerns,

748
01:27:57,195 --> 01:27:57,195
and they tell me that they cannot enjoy their property.

749
01:28:01,740 --> 01:28:03,930
they can't go outside. The first thing I did last tuesday was to go to mr. And mrs. Woodward's farm.

750
01:28:09,045 --> 01:28:11,325
I'm not very smart, I need to see things for myself.

751
01:28:14,780 --> 01:28:14,780
I guess my question would be, among others,

752
01:28:20,420 --> 01:28:23,895
we would not be sitting here today, if that issue had not been brought to us,

753
01:28:27,105 --> 01:28:29,745
and had not been raised to us by them. I'm sure a lot of other people in this room,

754
01:28:31,470 --> 01:28:33,195
mr. Hammer was here as well. If there are ways to control odor and control flies,

755
01:28:38,235 --> 01:28:40,065
why isn't it being done? Why are we being put into position here of having to have this hearing,

756
01:28:44,730 --> 01:28:46,410
be threatened to be sued? One of the things was if you pass this, you're going to be sued.

757
01:28:49,260 --> 01:28:51,630
we've been sued before, we'll be sued again. That's what keeps lawyers money coming in.

758
01:28:56,160 --> 01:28:56,160
but if these things are possible to do, I would imagine,

759
01:29:02,850 --> 01:29:06,510
and I'm not speaking for these people, but if they didn't smell that odor and if they didn't have the flies covering their doors and windows,

760
01:29:09,270 --> 01:29:11,100
they wouldn't be in here today. They got better things to do than coming here and say you're listening to us.

761
01:29:14,355 --> 01:29:17,370
so why? >> did we know?

762
01:29:19,065 --> 01:29:21,495
>> I'm sorry? >> did we know? >> no. >> okay. >> what do you mean, did you know? No. Wait a minute.

763
01:29:26,630 --> 01:29:30,620
ms. Woodward, I'm sorry. The owner has been contacted about this.

764
01:29:33,630 --> 01:29:36,000
>> I've been involved for 48 hours. >> well, I've learned more about this stuff than I ever wanted to know in the last week.

765
01:29:41,040 --> 01:29:41,040
but when we have constituents who vote for us and put us into office,

766
01:29:46,110 --> 01:29:48,615
we have to address their concerns. Now I can do one or two things.

767
01:29:50,250 --> 01:29:52,590
I can walk out of here and hope that I don't run into them at walmart or at the grocery store,

768
01:29:55,200 --> 01:29:57,030
but that ain't going to happen here. Or we can take it seriously.

769
01:29:59,580 --> 01:30:01,425
we're taking this seriously. But honestly, if there are measures that could be taken to resolve this situation,

770
01:30:08,870 --> 01:30:11,400
why has it taken this? >> we know, and wicomico county is proof that the smell and

771
01:30:17,640 --> 01:30:17,640
the flies and the overall burden of it is this fact right there.

772
01:30:24,305 --> 01:30:24,305
we know it. We know from previous experience that it exists.

773
01:30:30,895 --> 01:30:32,865
>> you mean that the odor exists? >> yes. The odor exists, flies exist.

774
01:30:35,675 --> 01:30:37,750
>> I don't think it attracts. I think it promotes fly reproduction.

775
01:30:40,735 --> 01:30:43,510
>> go ahead. I'll let you. >> on a case-by-case basis. Let me say that,

776
01:30:45,190 --> 01:30:48,380
I appreciate your comments very much. I'm here today because I just learned about this,

777
01:30:51,400 --> 01:30:53,890
when my understanding is through the department of agriculture, we've only had one complaint over the past year,

778
01:30:57,145 --> 01:30:57,145
and that's after all the storage and the land application, I want to say.

779
01:31:01,510 --> 01:31:04,330
again, I want to be accurate and that's why I want to have conversations with your staff.

780
01:31:06,805 --> 01:31:09,625
instead of stopping all actions, I'd rather have these conversations so that we can provide you accurate information.

781
01:31:14,380 --> 01:31:17,800
but I believe we apply somewhere between 2,000 and 3,000 acres a year. In maryland is required to either be ground injected or to be incorporated that same day.

782
01:31:22,540 --> 01:31:25,345
>> there's nothing in this moratorium that addresses application. >> okay. Again, this is site-specific,

783
01:31:28,030 --> 01:31:30,190
and it's about the storage. I'm trying to point out that in our operations,

784
01:31:33,295 --> 01:31:33,295
we know that if we get that material in the ground and it has soil contact,

785
01:31:39,790 --> 01:31:43,390
that it helps with odor reduction in storage. It's a matter of, I think last time,

786
01:31:45,700 --> 01:31:48,190
in your last meeting you heard that sometimes a crust will form over these lagoons that helps with the odor management.

787
01:31:51,265 --> 01:31:54,505
there are times if we know there's an odor issue, there could be some operational projects that we could install,

788
01:31:58,480 --> 01:31:59,950
whether it's odor misters, whether it's biological mixing that helps digest a little faster to help reduce odors.

789
01:32:04,510 --> 01:32:07,345
there's covers, there's impervious, there's even straw covers,

790
01:32:10,600 --> 01:32:12,505
that could potentially be implemented. But until we know there's a problem,

791
01:32:15,055 --> 01:32:18,760
until we know there's an issue, we can't respond. We're here today to respond and be part of the solution.

792
01:32:25,350 --> 01:32:25,350
>> you're telling me no one knew anything about this problem.

793
01:32:30,640 --> 01:32:30,640
I find that a little bit curious because I think this has been a process,

794
01:32:36,910 --> 01:32:40,240
has been ongoing with discussions between the person who owns that site and the people who've lived around it. It takes a lot.

795
01:32:45,370 --> 01:32:47,590
>> I'm sure the person getting paid, didn't run to the person paying them and say,

796
01:32:49,540 --> 01:32:51,220
hey, I'm getting complaints. >> but that's an operational problem. That's not my problem.

797
01:32:54,535 --> 01:32:57,040
but I'm just telling you that I know over the years it takes a lot for a group of people to come in.

798
01:32:59,920 --> 01:33:02,065
once they reached that point to come into us, they're looking for help. They're looking up here.

799
01:33:05,580 --> 01:33:08,320
as far as urgency, there is a sense of urgency because before any other sites are opened up,

800
01:33:14,305 --> 01:33:18,220
we're going to know the answers to these questions. >> let's do that together. >> there won't be anymore opened up.

801
01:33:20,350 --> 01:33:20,350
>> let's do that together.

802
01:33:24,600 --> 01:33:24,600
>> not only that, but what our concern is, road traffic.

803
01:33:31,990 --> 01:33:35,800
we have a county road leading to this property. Tractor trailers up and down there all the time.

804
01:33:38,590 --> 01:33:41,320
we've measured the roads. I know the width of the road, I know the width of these trucks.

805
01:33:42,760 --> 01:33:45,865
we have school buses traveling. The road is being torn up. Those are the things that we also have to take a look at.

806
01:33:48,775 --> 01:33:48,775
if there had been a permitting process that had been followed,

807
01:33:52,870 --> 01:33:55,330
those would have been addressed and those would have been talked about through the planning.

808
01:33:58,255 --> 01:34:01,555
katheleen is our former planning director. She's now the county administrator.

809
01:34:03,625 --> 01:34:07,300
but if those permits have been applied for, there would have been review of those. There weren't.

810
01:34:10,705 --> 01:34:12,940
>> again, if that site has a permit issue, that's a separate issue other than the storage.

811
01:34:14,830 --> 01:34:17,020
I would agree if it's out of compliance with your permit, that's an issue for the county to take up.

812
01:34:19,105 --> 01:34:21,655
>> I keep hearing about this site. Are we talking about only one site where you're getting

813
01:34:24,730 --> 01:34:28,600
complaints or are you getting complaints about all the sites? That's what I'm trying to understand. >> no. I will tell you that I

814
01:34:34,360 --> 01:34:34,360
talked extensively with a person who has another operation like this.

815
01:34:40,735 --> 01:34:40,735
what he told me was that the material was delivered.

816
01:34:46,420 --> 01:34:48,430
it was a former dairy farm. He called it a lagoon,

817
01:34:50,680 --> 01:34:54,235
I call it a pit. But when the material is delivered, it is stored there for a limited period of time and it is applied

818
01:34:58,435 --> 01:34:58,435
only on the farm that he owns and the farm that he rents.

819
01:35:03,805 --> 01:35:06,085
it is not applied anywhere else. I may disagree, but he has never had any problem.

820
01:35:10,825 --> 01:35:12,895
I've never heard of any problem. In this particular situation,

821
01:35:15,925 --> 01:35:19,375
one of my dumb questions that I asked was, why is there material there all the time in this tank?

822
01:35:23,320 --> 01:35:25,910
my guess is, that this is being hauled in.

823
01:35:27,945 --> 01:35:27,945
it's being stored there because they don't have anywhere else to put it.

824
01:35:34,010 --> 01:35:37,190
my other question would be, who keeps track of what goes into that pit?

825
01:35:41,770 --> 01:35:45,745
>> can I go back to what you just said. Again, I'm asking because I don't know. When you said it's being stored there, at this one location,

826
01:35:50,630 --> 01:35:50,630
is it being stored there for only application on that property,

827
01:35:56,040 --> 01:35:59,815
but they just haven't applied all of it? >> we will probably have the answer to that question here in our public comment period,

828
01:36:03,940 --> 01:36:03,940
but I know that there is also a pending case in talbot county.

829
01:36:09,985 --> 01:36:10,975
>> I'm involved in that. >> okay. I'm not accusing.

830
01:36:16,960 --> 01:36:19,930
I know in that case, there were circumstances where there were additional things being brought in,

831
01:36:23,185 --> 01:36:26,875
in addition to poultry in the beginning. There was seafood,

832
01:36:28,120 --> 01:36:28,120
and there was also biosolids [overlapping] from ocean city wastewater treatment plant.

833
01:36:33,805 --> 01:36:37,690
>> then there were three soil conditioners. One of the three soil conditioners was what caused the complainants that's called sea [inaudible]

834
01:36:40,330 --> 01:36:42,760
>> clam bellies? >> what's that? >> clam bellies. Clam waste.

835
01:36:46,290 --> 01:36:49,090
affectionately known as clam bellies. [laughter]

836
01:36:51,550 --> 01:36:53,605
>> I'm just asking this because my information. How do we know what is being delivered to this facility?

837
01:36:57,250 --> 01:37:00,475
>> because it gets tested before it gets delivered. Not only that, but a misconception regarding the talbot county matter.

838
01:37:06,640 --> 01:37:09,880
the biosolids and the soil conditioners, were only being land applied on the one property owned by mr. Folster,

839
01:37:17,920 --> 01:37:17,920
who has now passed, and other properties owned or operated by mr. Folster.

840
01:37:24,190 --> 01:37:24,190
in other words, there was storage taking place in concrete bunkers on the folster farm.

841
01:37:30,220 --> 01:37:33,970
the storage of those soil conditioners when needed to be land applied to those various ag fields on the folster farm,

842
01:37:39,460 --> 01:37:42,160
and I'll call the other folster properties, they would land apply it.

843
01:37:44,170 --> 01:37:44,170
but obviously, you can only apply so much at one time.

844
01:37:49,030 --> 01:37:49,030
there were considerable periods of time where there were soil conditioners

845
01:37:55,285 --> 01:37:57,820
being stored in those concrete bunkers on the folster farm until land application was necessary.

846
01:38:01,990 --> 01:38:01,990
that's why I was asking the question about the property in caroline county you mentioned.

847
01:38:06,745 --> 01:38:10,255
for my benefit, is that because the land application of those products being stored wasn't yet necessary,

848
01:38:15,895 --> 01:38:15,895
but it was going on that property or is the allegation

849
01:38:21,955 --> 01:38:25,060
that they were storing it to either sell it to other property owners or to land apply it on other properties,

850
01:38:28,540 --> 01:38:30,160
not those where it's being stored. Because that to me is a big difference.

851
01:38:37,650 --> 01:38:37,650
again, these soil conditioners are in lieu of a standard commercial fertilizer.

852
01:38:42,895 --> 01:38:45,295
it's just a soil supplement. >> honestly, I do agree.

853
01:38:47,815 --> 01:38:50,950
if it's a farmer that is using it for his own purpose. >> yes.

854
01:38:51,850 --> 01:38:54,850
>> but I can't tell you how many fields I've stood in, in the last 13 years,

855
01:38:56,590 --> 01:39:00,160
with people who have just moved here, who called me up and say, I want you to come out here and smell this,

856
01:39:01,630 --> 01:39:03,190
and I go out there and say that's farming. [laughter] I've done it over and over again. This is different.

857
01:39:08,215 --> 01:39:10,870
>> on the talbot county dispute, [overlapping] we're not going to litigate it here.

858
01:39:15,205 --> 01:39:17,480
all I'll say is, the principal issue in that case is the application of not only the state,

859
01:39:24,540 --> 01:39:26,235
but the talbot county right to farm law, and whether it's a generally accepted agricultural practice to store and land

860
01:39:32,230 --> 01:39:36,055
apply soil conditioners as part of what's got agricultural operation under both the state law and the county law.

861
01:39:41,695 --> 01:39:43,930
>> real quick. Can you give me an example of another soil conditioner that a landowner would be paid to take?

862
01:39:48,125 --> 01:39:48,125
>> first of all, I know on the talbot county matter,

863
01:39:52,850 --> 01:39:52,850
the folsters were not paid to take the soil conditioners.

864
01:39:57,610 --> 01:40:00,700
the folsters wanted the soil conditioner because they didn't have to pay for it as they would a standard commercial fertilizer.

865
01:40:06,240 --> 01:40:09,430
I'll have to have mr. Dowling answer that question, but it's my understanding,

866
01:40:10,570 --> 01:40:13,120
in the vast majority of the circumstances, or even all of them, denali is not

867
01:40:16,390 --> 01:40:16,390
paying the property owner or the farmer to accept the soil conditioner.

868
01:40:21,310 --> 01:40:21,310
it's a decision by the property owner or the farmer because it saves them money.

869
01:40:25,960 --> 01:40:28,600
>> to answer that directly, what you're talking about is like a tipping fee into a landfill,

870
01:40:30,970 --> 01:40:34,060
we do not pay a tipping fee. We pay for services, whether it's storage or the land application.

871
01:40:36,385 --> 01:40:38,740
either we're going to own the storage or we're going to do the land application ourselves and we have teams across the country that land

872
01:40:41,590 --> 01:40:41,590
apply biosolids as a astounding fertilizer.

873
01:40:46,930 --> 01:40:49,735
>> but it answers to the time. I'm sorry. Nation-wide, I don't care about nation-wide,

874
01:40:52,630 --> 01:40:56,395
I care about caroline county. [overlapping] >> we're talking about caroline county, and then the storage, and for land application. We pay for the service and the access and storage.

875
01:40:59,275 --> 01:41:03,130
>> you lease the storage space. >> it could be [overlapping] the storage or the application because it's either the cost is going to be on us or on them.

876
01:41:07,390 --> 01:41:09,640
>> so you can pay them to apply? >> we can, yes. There can be a subcontractor to apply as well.

877
01:41:12,910 --> 01:41:15,535
>> that's an interesting way to get around it. >> well, because it's a standard agricultural practice.

878
01:41:20,470 --> 01:41:22,540
somebody is going to do it. It needs to be done. >> name another soil conditioner where the manufacturer pays the farmer to apply it.

879
01:41:29,245 --> 01:41:33,130
>> no. Manufacturer doesn't pay a farmer to the apply it. We pay for the service of application. Let me clarify.

880
01:41:37,560 --> 01:41:40,300
>> you pay for him but you apply it, sir. >> that's the service of doing because otherwise we would be doing it.

881
01:41:45,030 --> 01:41:48,750
we would have that cost. >> either lease the storage space and you apply,

882
01:41:52,840 --> 01:41:52,840
or you pay the farmer to apply it on the property.

883
01:41:57,670 --> 01:42:00,970
>> or both. >> there's money exchanged somewhere? >> yes. >> but its semantics are the,

884
01:42:03,850 --> 01:42:03,850
whether it's a tipping fee or whether you're compensating in some other manner.

885
01:42:08,185 --> 01:42:08,185
>> to store or apply is the operational part of our recycling the residuals.

886
01:42:14,950 --> 01:42:17,560
okay. So let me clarify too. I think mr. Porter, you asked about storage year-round.

887
01:42:20,350 --> 01:42:23,350
my understanding is a lot of the stores that we do have here in caroline county has been emptied out.

888
01:42:26,470 --> 01:42:29,620
my last conversation with one of our operational managers, it's like 98% of the storage is empty.

889
01:42:31,945 --> 01:42:34,960
we get it empty this time of year because you have the ban in place in maryland and delaware.

890
01:42:38,365 --> 01:42:40,555
over the winter time, those will fill up, then the farmers will want to have that access to those nutrients

891
01:42:43,690 --> 01:42:47,635
prior to planting to apply to their fields so that it will increase their yields. Traditionally, what I've understood,

892
01:42:49,180 --> 01:42:52,285
and we can get more information on this for you, is they'll plot twice a year, once in the spring and once in the fall.

893
01:42:54,670 --> 01:42:57,610
they get it out pretty quickly depending on if there is either a ground injection buggy or if it's a drag line. [overlapping]

894
01:43:00,670 --> 01:43:04,030
>> my understanding is you had a person applying up until midnight on december the 14th and then we had

895
01:43:06,910 --> 01:43:10,300
3 inches of rain come in to try to empty out their lagoon. Is that good practice?

896
01:43:11,635 --> 01:43:12,940
is that good environmental practice? Do you regulate what's your people do or you just give it to them and say,

897
01:43:17,725 --> 01:43:21,430
"here's your money, do what you want?" [overlapping] >> we direct and in states a lot of departments of environmental quality

898
01:43:26,140 --> 01:43:26,140
require land application is regulated and there will be times when you know it.

899
01:43:32,275 --> 01:43:33,925
number one is that agronomic rates, you don't want to have fido impacts on grasses over application, you don't want that.

900
01:43:39,730 --> 01:43:42,535
no runoff, all buffers are respected, whether it's to public wells,

901
01:43:44,230 --> 01:43:44,230
private wells, landowner property lines.

902
01:43:49,740 --> 01:43:49,740
in oftentimes, they'll say you can't

903
01:43:53,860 --> 01:43:57,340
apply [overlapping] immediately before rain and a lot of times that's in forecast that we're required to keep

904
01:44:00,430 --> 01:44:04,030
those records that if there's a forecasted rain and it depends on the state. [overlapping] >> but you don't know what your farmers are doing.

905
01:44:06,640 --> 01:44:09,160
you dump it, you don't know if a person with a pit is out not applying it properly, you don't know.

906
01:44:13,480 --> 01:44:13,480
>> we respect that they will respect our operational requirements. [overlapping]

907
01:44:19,690 --> 01:44:21,970
>> is that in the contract or in the agreement? >> they are to operate within the guidelines as required by the state.

908
01:44:26,630 --> 01:44:30,135
>> which is oda or mde. >> right. >> right. >> [overlapping] it's the sort of conditioners of mda and the biosolvent.

909
01:44:34,090 --> 01:44:34,090
>> [overlapping] well, we're getting off here because we're not banning application.

910
01:44:38,320 --> 01:44:41,125
we're not even discussing that, we're just talking about storage.

911
01:44:42,865 --> 01:44:45,355
let me lay out a couple of reasons why. >> okay. >> you guys have had a lot of time to talk here.

912
01:44:48,175 --> 01:44:50,485
a couple of things, we also serve as the board of health,

913
01:44:52,315 --> 01:44:55,060
which I didn't realize that until I was recently elected. [laughter] there are health concerns associated with the storage of this.

914
01:44:59,350 --> 01:45:02,830
that's what I was alluding to with are these pits examined, are the storage facilities examined?

915
01:45:04,765 --> 01:45:08,305
is this material safe to infiltrate into the groundwater? >> it doesn't migrate,

916
01:45:09,940 --> 01:45:12,340
it's injected. It's either. [overlapping] >> no. In the storage if there was a break in a storage tank,

917
01:45:15,760 --> 01:45:18,700
and it perked into the ground could it contamination groundwater? >> this is organic residual that does not contain toxic or hazardous materials.

918
01:45:21,550 --> 01:45:24,850
this is material coming from food processing. In those facilities are using

919
01:45:27,280 --> 01:45:30,280
food safety practices and procedures with what they use is what comes to the grocery store and what goes to your home kitchen.

920
01:45:33,535 --> 01:45:36,490
>> why not put a field drain system in like a septic and just put it into the ground that way, at the plant?

921
01:45:39,985 --> 01:45:43,660
>> that's a good question. I haven't considered it. [overlapping] >> I guess the answer to that question is that it was not required

922
01:45:45,880 --> 01:45:48,595
by mda or mde at this time. >> do you allow year round storage in these lagoons?

923
01:45:52,240 --> 01:45:55,750
you don't regulate that storage, people can store year round. >> no, not year round storage. It's only basis and think about this,

924
01:45:59,065 --> 01:45:59,065
the reason we have storage too is because of seasonal or operational constraints.

925
01:46:04,345 --> 01:46:06,580
you need to have a place to go to keep that material out of the plant so the plant can keep their jobs,

926
01:46:09,220 --> 01:46:12,670
keep their people working all the time. >> they don't have enough capacity to store? >> correct. They don't have on-site capacity storage at these plants.

927
01:46:15,730 --> 01:46:19,600
but note that this daf skimming is dissolved air flotation, I don't know if you've seen one, they're really interesting.

928
01:46:22,680 --> 01:46:25,060
>> I hear they smell really good. >> they are awful. [laughter] you pull

929
01:46:27,310 --> 01:46:30,385
that organic matter out prior to it going further down the water treatment system because it has

930
01:46:31,930 --> 01:46:34,135
such a biological oxygen demand that it doesn't go to the publicly owned treatment systems.

931
01:46:37,285 --> 01:46:41,260
you pull that organic matter out and you re-purpose it and you recycle it so that you keep solids like biosolids out of the waste stream.

932
01:46:45,475 --> 01:46:48,010
you re-purpose them, you keep them out of the landfill. Landfills are expensive to permit and nobody wants to new landfill in their permit.

933
01:46:52,075 --> 01:46:54,970
you take those solids out and protection of clean water. Prior to the clean water act,

934
01:46:56,605 --> 01:46:59,605
what did we do with solids? Most of them just went to the river. The solution to pollution was dilution.

935
01:47:01,765 --> 01:47:03,205
we don't do that anymore. We take this organic matter out and we recycle it as

936
01:47:07,270 --> 01:47:07,270
a soil amendment or a fertilizer and in compliance with state law.

937
01:47:11,635 --> 01:47:15,610
>> do you know how many storage locations you have in caroline county? >> in caroline county? I do not.

938
01:47:16,495 --> 01:47:16,495
>> could you imagine how many might be in caroline county that we use?

939
01:47:22,075 --> 01:47:26,020
>> that we use, if I had to guess. >> microphone, please. >> we don't even know?

940
01:47:27,250 --> 01:47:30,370
>> no. >> I don't but I know my operations guys do. >> all I'm saying you're coming to caroline county you would know how

941
01:47:31,840 --> 01:47:33,685
many you would've had before you come to the meeting. >> this was last minute.

942
01:47:36,160 --> 01:47:38,515
>> wait a minute. With all due respect, I spoke to mr. Barroll last night at six o'clock.

943
01:47:43,540 --> 01:47:46,810
I've had 24 hours to be prepared to be here. That's one of the problems with this proceeding.

944
01:47:48,910 --> 01:47:51,910
again, I'm being as respectful as I possibly can. We have not had much time at all to answer

945
01:47:56,785 --> 01:47:56,785
every question this board may have generally regarding daf in caroline county,

946
01:48:02,965 --> 01:48:05,560
regarding denali's activities in caroline county. If this was a public hearing with 30-day notice or what have you,

947
01:48:09,895 --> 01:48:12,865
it'd be a different [noise] discussion. We haven't had that opportunity,

948
01:48:14,890 --> 01:48:16,375
which is the opportunity you want, and we can come to you with all information you desire.

949
01:48:20,095 --> 01:48:23,650
we've had a real short leash here so please understand that. >> just say for example, even yet there's only caroline county is not that big.

950
01:48:27,265 --> 01:48:28,525
>> I understand. >> I'm sure there's less than 10.

951
01:48:31,630 --> 01:48:33,385
>> do you have an approximate number? >> it's four. I said I guess because there are

952
01:48:36,460 --> 01:48:39,280
other potential locations that we could use but [noise] that we could be using here in

953
01:48:41,800 --> 01:48:45,565
the next couple of months for this new treatment, it's four. >> there's a lot of people here from the town originally that are probably

954
01:48:48,220 --> 01:48:50,815
concerned about one of your potential new locations. >> let's talk about that. This document,

955
01:48:55,720 --> 01:48:58,480
we've only had since this morning when we picked it up in the hallway, but we've only had since friday afternoon to understand it,

956
01:49:01,360 --> 01:49:04,195
to talk about it internally on monday and then reach out to legal counsel to reach out to stakeholder groups.

957
01:49:07,630 --> 01:49:09,430
this has moved faster than we've known. Again, we've only had one complaint from

958
01:49:11,920 --> 01:49:11,920
mda this year over all the storage or the land application.

959
01:49:17,575 --> 01:49:17,575
I would respectfully suggest if you would please give us the grace of time with

960
01:49:24,100 --> 01:49:26,380
you and your staff to help with your regulatory need as you identified in your last meeting.

961
01:49:30,265 --> 01:49:30,265
you said that that was the thing I think ms. [inaudible] pointed out,

962
01:49:34,390 --> 01:49:38,245
that you just don't have that on the books, and I think if that's something you want to do, that is your right, and you can do that.

963
01:49:41,665 --> 01:49:44,830
let's work towards that instead of passing a moratorium and facing any potential unintended consequences.

964
01:49:49,285 --> 01:49:49,285
>> what plants does the product that's coming to caroline county come from,

965
01:49:54,580 --> 01:49:57,490
is it just chicken producers here on the shore? Is it coming from new jersey?

966
01:49:59,290 --> 01:50:03,100
>> no, it's on delmarva, most of them. Do you want me to list the four that I know of?.

967
01:50:06,865 --> 01:50:10,345
>> manor farms, tyson foods. >> valley protein and amic.

968
01:50:12,040 --> 01:50:15,790
>> well, yes, valley protein, starling, and amic. >> okay. >> but it's all daf.

969
01:50:17,875 --> 01:50:20,935
it's all what comes out of a daf unit. >> I know you all say that you wouldn't know this.

970
01:50:24,565 --> 01:50:27,595
in caroline county, I'm going to ask you, is there any concrete silage platforms?

971
01:50:33,155 --> 01:50:36,765
we store other waste solid. >> I don't know that on concrete.

972
01:50:39,150 --> 01:50:39,150
>> meaning [overlapping] bellies besides pig and again,

973
01:50:44,340 --> 01:50:47,205
is there any other places that, make sure we answer carefully. You don't know.

974
01:50:50,310 --> 01:50:51,915
>> right. >> is there any other place in caroline county that is

975
01:50:55,140 --> 01:50:59,010
taking old concrete solids, bunkers? >> yes. >> storing any type of solids anytime a year,

976
01:51:02,055 --> 01:51:02,055
being aka clam bellies, human residuals.

977
01:51:07,760 --> 01:51:10,245
the solid portion of that, because sometime is a solid portion of that.

978
01:51:12,765 --> 01:51:14,670
is there any place in caroline county that it's taken in the store and for example, 12 account?

979
01:51:17,760 --> 01:51:21,450
>> yes, there are two locations that could do that. >> could or did.

980
01:51:22,335 --> 01:51:26,310
>> could or have been. >> that have been. >> that have been. >> but there's that sea watch clam bellies.

981
01:51:29,940 --> 01:51:32,790
it's no longer going to land application. >> because we're not ours alone or?

982
01:51:35,205 --> 01:51:35,205
>> no, because to try and help with some of the older issues that we've had in the past.

983
01:51:39,675 --> 01:51:42,765
>> the talbot county issue. >> I'm talking caroline county here. >> I know. But you've mentioned the clam and her answer was

984
01:51:46,935 --> 01:51:46,935
denali does not deliver that to any locations now,

985
01:51:52,035 --> 01:51:55,800
whether caroline county or otherwise other state. >> okay. >> because of the edible plants, we experienced at talbot county.

986
01:51:57,315 --> 01:52:01,200
>> what about human resilience? >> none. >> nothing we can do about bile salts. >> yeah. >> yes. There's one location that stores class a bile solid.

987
01:52:05,850 --> 01:52:08,160
>> you do have class a. >> on a concrete bunker. >> yes.

988
01:52:10,910 --> 01:52:10,910
>> has the denali in any way before they stored it anywhere,

989
01:52:15,510 --> 01:52:19,200
have they went and did a scope of the area to see if there's any wetlands within reason of where we say hey we'll store it at your facility,

990
01:52:25,110 --> 01:52:27,420
but hey, we need to do a check first and make sure there's no wetlands involved within so many feet of property.

991
01:52:31,485 --> 01:52:35,250
like the other day, we had to answer to rain and all the rain comes out to a concrete bunker it all goes out, they don't stay in.

992
01:52:39,720 --> 01:52:42,810
>> depending on the storage requirements, I'll speak to a couple of other southeastern states that

993
01:52:46,770 --> 01:52:50,430
require 12-inch freeboard on their storage facilities, some are 20, just depends on

994
01:52:53,760 --> 01:52:56,970
their requirements so that they can assure that it's being emptied, that is being utilized,

995
01:52:58,050 --> 01:53:01,635
that you don't have overflow so that you don't have that natural resources. Speaking to wetlands, property lines, well heads,

996
01:53:04,740 --> 01:53:06,645
all of those we have an extensive gis mapping staff that

997
01:53:09,480 --> 01:53:12,660
looks state-by-state to make sure that when we go to a farm, we have mapped out where those well heads are,

998
01:53:16,470 --> 01:53:20,040
where those property lines are because state-by-state, those are regulated in different distances and we have to make sure we comply with those.

999
01:53:23,895 --> 01:53:25,980
in fact, if we were on a teams meeting, you'd see my background is a greenfield with a light stripe down the middle where

1000
01:53:30,060 --> 01:53:30,060
fences and it's because there's property buffers there that don't get applied.

1001
01:53:34,260 --> 01:53:36,390
but you would notice that where it is applied the fields are green and the fields are more productive,

1002
01:53:39,900 --> 01:53:41,820
but those buffers are respected. >> are you aware of any regulations that influenced the storage here in maryland?

1003
01:53:45,960 --> 01:53:49,905
does maryland regulate any? >> I believe.

1004
01:53:51,300 --> 01:53:52,815
>> I know they do with chicken manure, it has to be mounted up in a certain distance but do they exist for def?

1005
01:53:57,570 --> 01:53:57,570
>> I believe as I cited in my memorandum that.

1006
01:54:02,190 --> 01:54:05,130
>> I don't believe they exist, sir. >> well. >> I mean, do you know? >> you asked a question. I'm answering your question.

1007
01:54:07,080 --> 01:54:10,380
I believe as I indicated in my memorandum, that storage is part of the process of utilizing data material and as such,

1008
01:54:16,740 --> 01:54:16,740
the storage and the material is preempted as is the land application of it,

1009
01:54:21,240 --> 01:54:22,785
that's what that memorandum says. >> you're saying just for layman's terms,

1010
01:54:26,310 --> 01:54:29,550
storage is concrete covered on the application part side of it. >> there is laws that address not only the storage of it.

1011
01:54:34,620 --> 01:54:38,175
the laws that address not only the land application of it, also addressed all other aspects of testing,

1012
01:54:43,245 --> 01:54:46,050
utilizing, land applying, or otherwise using def material.

1013
01:54:48,285 --> 01:54:51,990
to use def material it's got to be stored, if you can't store it, you can't use it.

1014
01:54:55,260 --> 01:54:58,620
in other words, there's got to be some level of storage somewhere. Therefore, my position is under

1015
01:55:00,780 --> 01:55:03,060
the state ball to the extent the state of maryland has preempted the field regarding that,

1016
01:55:05,985 --> 01:55:05,985
generally, storage is part of that preemptive.

1017
01:55:11,145 --> 01:55:12,210
>> but it's unregulated. There are no regulations that you're aware of, it's preempted.

1018
01:55:15,525 --> 01:55:15,525
>> it is preempted not only by state ball law but there are

1019
01:55:19,620 --> 01:55:19,620
also comar regulations that were adopted pursuant to that state law.

1020
01:55:24,330 --> 01:55:24,330
>> we have been down the preemption road many times here

1021
01:55:28,695 --> 01:55:28,695
and you can imagine that's not a very good word for us.

1022
01:55:33,480 --> 01:55:35,130
well, let me ask a question. Are there occasions where you talk about it's necessary for it to be stored?

1023
01:55:43,830 --> 01:55:45,990
are there any occasions where you do applications to land where it's brought directly from the plant?

1024
01:55:48,825 --> 01:55:52,560
>> yes, we do. >> it's not required to be stored. >> it depends on the operation. >> it's more convenient if you store it, but it's not required.

1025
01:55:55,380 --> 01:55:57,540
>> it depends on the operation, it depends on the operator, depends on if we have those assets available.

1026
01:55:59,655 --> 01:56:02,265
there is direct land application that's available, but oftentimes you will see people bring in temporary storage.

1027
01:56:06,180 --> 01:56:06,180
you can actually see large above-ground storage tanks,

1028
01:56:12,600 --> 01:56:16,215
temporary tanks, you can see in-ground there's there's all sorts. The reason for that again is mr. Cropper just described is,

1029
01:56:19,830 --> 01:56:22,665
storage is essential for seasonal, for operational and for other challenges.

1030
01:56:24,480 --> 01:56:26,655
you may end up with a week of rain. You're not going to ground the plot when the soils are saturated.

1031
01:56:29,130 --> 01:56:32,730
>> that's right. >> that's another thing and almost all the parts of agriculture, they don't want their soil amendments applied in saturated soils.

1032
01:56:35,625 --> 01:56:39,255
what that definition is, is different state to state, but that's common sense too.

1033
01:56:41,040 --> 01:56:44,640
that's a common sense practice. But I want to get back to mr. Porter concerned about wetlands, and I really appreciate that because I'm a big water advocate and I

1034
01:56:49,170 --> 01:56:51,690
appreciate everything you do here to protect the bay and protect the public health and public resources.

1035
01:56:54,795 --> 01:56:58,140
but as far as looking at because we're focusing on storage if there's something that would give

1036
01:57:01,620 --> 01:57:05,520
council commissioners and public comfort in what that storage looks like and what would be required for a storage pit,

1037
01:57:09,495 --> 01:57:09,495
a storage facility that would meet your expectations,

1038
01:57:13,605 --> 01:57:16,245
that you've mentioned in your last meeting. That are reasonable? I think that would be beneficial to everybody and I

1039
01:57:21,120 --> 01:57:23,070
think that if we could take that time to address those specific concerns and have those questions.

1040
01:57:25,665 --> 01:57:27,960
I think there's a lot of questions that are unanswered here that I think we would want to be able

1041
01:57:30,300 --> 01:57:32,430
to engage our operational staff to make sure that your county administrator and attorney understand.

1042
01:57:35,295 --> 01:57:38,700
>> I agree with that, but I will tell you again, and I know that none of you are here

1043
01:57:41,580 --> 01:57:41,580
who are involved in the permitting process, but I will tell you.

1044
01:57:45,990 --> 01:57:49,005
if the permits had been applied for, all of those issues would have been reviewed.

1045
01:57:51,435 --> 01:57:53,190
they would have all been reviewed. There are people sitting in this room who I can tell you would,

1046
01:57:57,060 --> 01:57:57,060
with me as you're in the front yard over having to get permits for things.

1047
01:58:02,220 --> 01:58:05,025
we make our own citizens do it, and the fact that they came in here and just thumb their nose is really a problem for me.

1048
01:58:11,190 --> 01:58:14,670
I will also tell you that I just got appointed this year by the government or I am a voting setting member on the critical areas commission.

1049
01:58:17,970 --> 01:58:20,325
I'm serving that sentence right now. I will tell you that I am very concerned about it as well.

1050
01:58:24,030 --> 01:58:27,255
but all of those things would have been addressed, all of the wetlands,

1051
01:58:28,500 --> 01:58:32,085
all of the critical areas questions would have been addressed and I am not blaming you guys.

1052
01:58:36,630 --> 01:58:36,630
>> if there's a permit compliance issue [overlapping] we are not disagreeing on that.

1053
01:58:41,400 --> 01:58:44,240
>> [laughter] I agree with you. Time to disagree with all, that's not it.

1054
01:58:47,605 --> 01:58:47,605
>> well, I don't know.

1055
01:58:52,060 --> 01:58:52,060
I feel like this product could contaminate the groundwater table as the board of health,

1056
01:58:57,445 --> 01:59:00,550
I think it's our responsibility to make sure that we put protections in place to protect the health of our citizens,

1057
01:59:03,475 --> 01:59:06,250
and if it contaminates the groundwater table, we could be in a grave public health situation there.

1058
01:59:12,910 --> 01:59:12,910
as far as the police powers that you pointed out in your memo, the operation,

1059
01:59:20,815 --> 01:59:24,610
if we unregulated it condemns the neighbor's properties so they can't use them outdoors because of the flies and the stink.

1060
01:59:30,010 --> 01:59:30,010
if we allow the storage anywhere and everywhere all summer long,

1061
01:59:34,060 --> 01:59:34,060
are we not allowing a property owner to condemn a neighbor's property?

1062
01:59:39,250 --> 01:59:39,250
>> I wouldn't agree with that legal analysis no,

1063
01:59:43,540 --> 01:59:43,540
and when you indicated that regarding the regulatory perspective.

1064
01:59:50,020 --> 01:59:50,020
>> well, it says we can administer police powers if it serves a public interest.

1065
01:59:55,150 --> 01:59:58,825
>> exactly. >> that's not a public interest, condemning a neighbor's property to be able to.

1066
02:00:00,670 --> 02:00:02,380
[overlapping] >> it's your verbiage that condemns the neighbor's property,

1067
02:00:05,380 --> 02:00:07,105
I don't think it condemns the neighbor's property. >> it reduces the property value.

1068
02:00:10,960 --> 02:00:12,100
>> what I would say, and I'll refer to the talbot county debate in answering this.

1069
02:00:16,690 --> 02:00:19,225
again, in the talbot county debate, it was whether or not the storage and

1070
02:00:22,510 --> 02:00:22,510
land application did or didn't violate the talbot county right to farm law,

1071
02:00:27,025 --> 02:00:29,665
which we contend it did not, and the talbot county agricultural resolution board and

1072
02:00:33,460 --> 02:00:37,435
talbot county matter as well as anything before this county. >> where is this product produced?

1073
02:00:39,460 --> 02:00:41,980
is it produced on agricultural lands or is it produced on commercial industrial properties?

1074
02:00:44,710 --> 02:00:47,170
>> when you say this product, what are you talking about? >> def. >> well, it varies. It comes from various locations so go ahead.

1075
02:00:50,575 --> 02:00:54,490
>> it's in food processing facilities. [overlapping] >> industrial. >> well, when you say industrial, it puts into the minds of people, it's hazardous.

1076
02:00:56,530 --> 02:00:59,625
it is not. This is in a food processing facility. >> on industrial-zoned property.

1077
02:01:02,085 --> 02:01:05,470
>> but we cannot reiterate something. >> right. >> it's industrial zone property,

1078
02:01:07,270 --> 02:01:08,665
so it's an industrial use. >> soil amendments are regulated by the maryland department of agriculture for a reason.

1079
02:01:15,055 --> 02:01:17,515
it's considered an agricultural product. It's not considered an industrial waste regardless of from where it came.

1080
02:01:21,745 --> 02:01:21,745
I don't think it's appropriate to say because it was created as

1081
02:01:25,780 --> 02:01:25,780
a result of an industrial activity that it's an industrial product.

1082
02:01:30,460 --> 02:01:30,460
if it was mda would regulate and as with the bio-solids from the talbot city,

1083
02:01:35,005 --> 02:01:37,300
which comes from its wastewater plant. Well, that's regulated by the maryland department of environment

1084
02:01:40,240 --> 02:01:42,460
as opposed to the maryland department of agriculture. Those regulations just similar to those from

1085
02:01:46,150 --> 02:01:46,150
mda characterize that product as a soil supplement, a soil manager.

1086
02:01:54,385 --> 02:01:55,930
it provides nutrients to soil, there is no different from a standard commercial fertilizer.

1087
02:01:59,610 --> 02:01:59,610
I just don't want to confuse the issue with regard to where it comes

1088
02:02:04,615 --> 02:02:04,615
from versus how and why it's regulated by the maryland department of agriculture.

1089
02:02:09,805 --> 02:02:09,805
caroline county is a massively agricultural community.

1090
02:02:13,990 --> 02:02:15,340
I'm from wooster county. The same thing, I think 70% of wooster county is on

1091
02:02:18,250 --> 02:02:18,250
agriculture is the principal industry in wooster county,

1092
02:02:22,300 --> 02:02:25,230
if you take a subsidy out of x. The agricultural operation that

1093
02:02:30,670 --> 02:02:30,670
we're talking about is simply that it's an agricultural operation

1094
02:02:34,825 --> 02:02:38,635
using an agricultural product that's considered to be a generally accepted agricultural practice in furtherance of an agricultural operation.

1095
02:02:44,710 --> 02:02:44,710
>> under that guys it should be able to be stored anywhere, in anything.

1096
02:02:49,255 --> 02:02:53,050
>> well, it still has to apply. [overlapping] >> like a 55-gallon drum we put it out here. >> it still has to comply with whatever laws,

1097
02:02:54,850 --> 02:02:54,850
rules or regulations have been implemented by mda,

1098
02:02:59,815 --> 02:03:02,050
mde, or through various regulations so when you say it can be stored in anything anywhere,

1099
02:03:06,415 --> 02:03:10,360
I don't agree with that statement. It's still a regulated activity, but it's regulated through mde and mda that's what I am saying.

1100
02:03:14,515 --> 02:03:18,010
>> this is my final. [laughter] >> we've been on this long enough.

1101
02:03:19,930 --> 02:03:19,930
>> I hope you can understand when we talk about values of property.

1102
02:03:25,345 --> 02:03:26,395
>> absolutely. >> this is an issue that we face all the time.

1103
02:03:31,970 --> 02:03:31,970
if a person goes to sell their property and the person who comes to look

1104
02:03:38,970 --> 02:03:41,860
to buy that property comes at a time when they can barely breathe and flies and they can't even see out the windows,

1105
02:03:45,205 --> 02:03:48,690
it hurts the value of that property. I go back to this,

1106
02:03:50,770 --> 02:03:54,490
if there is a way to prevent that from happening, I guess I'll just keep going back to this.

1107
02:03:56,635 --> 02:03:56,635
why has it taken this to get to a point where there's an offer to do that?

1108
02:04:04,570 --> 02:04:08,335
I guess, that's what my question is. >> is it because you didn't know, is that what you're saying? >> yes, sir. We got this information as of last week and let me

1109
02:04:11,590 --> 02:04:11,590
just close with this because I know time is valuable for everyone.

1110
02:04:15,625 --> 02:04:17,650
it's my understanding in 2019, I think caroline county grew 50 million chickens,

1111
02:04:21,565 --> 02:04:24,655
and those chickens go to processors, large, what you would call an industrial facility.

1112
02:04:27,595 --> 02:04:27,595
those chickens go there to be processed and sold into the market.

1113
02:04:32,275 --> 02:04:34,810
that hardworking families buy to feed their families. >> we love chickens. I eat a lot of chicken.

1114
02:04:36,730 --> 02:04:37,120
>> me too. >> this is not any shot against chickens

1115
02:04:41,170 --> 02:04:41,620
>> no. >> it is a concern

1116
02:04:46,270 --> 02:04:46,270
of addressing our concerns that citizens have expressed to us. [overlapping]

1117
02:04:50,890 --> 02:04:50,890
>> on stores. That's why I want to focus the conversation because storage

1118
02:04:54,970 --> 02:04:56,170
is essential to support those 50 million chickens going to the facility to go into the market.

1119
02:04:59,230 --> 02:05:01,270
those residuals come back to support the growth of grain that feeds those chickens and then goes back.

1120
02:05:03,910 --> 02:05:07,270
it's the cyclical nature of agriculture that we support. This is about the storage.

1121
02:05:09,040 --> 02:05:09,040
[overlapping] if you would give us a couple of months, 60 days,

1122
02:05:14,860 --> 02:05:17,485
90 days to get with staff and you, and let's talk about what those solutions look like,

1123
02:05:19,885 --> 02:05:21,415
this could be a model for the future. >> when we have these processing plants and I

1124
02:05:26,170 --> 02:05:26,170
can remember barely a time when there was a conveyor belt that emptied into this river.

1125
02:05:31,240 --> 02:05:31,240
I'm sure some of the older people in this room older than me then can remember

1126
02:05:35,470 --> 02:05:35,470
that it used to be [laughter] a conveyor belt that just dumped it into the river.

1127
02:05:46,800 --> 02:05:50,290
I know that the poultry industry is well represented and I know that there's a lot of money.

1128
02:05:53,950 --> 02:05:57,040
should there be some responsibility for the poultry companies to handle the storage of this material on-site?

1129
02:06:01,000 --> 02:06:01,000
>> we can talk about those issues with you at another time.

1130
02:06:05,200 --> 02:06:08,140
that's a discussion with poultry companies. We are trying to service the agricultural community in

1131
02:06:11,320 --> 02:06:14,965
caroline county and keep the poultry industry's wheels on. Providing them with supporting good jobs. [overlapping]

1132
02:06:17,260 --> 02:06:20,020
>> we have poultry farmers in this county and I know they're all staring at us, this is not against them.

1133
02:06:21,820 --> 02:06:22,615
>> correct. >> this is about storage and what I heard was that specific site and

1134
02:06:26,890 --> 02:06:26,890
that specific issue and let's go to that and I will go back and

1135
02:06:31,390 --> 02:06:33,370
I think that mr. Bartz and I are going to have some conversations about environmental protection because I respect that

1136
02:06:37,300 --> 02:06:40,780
and I appreciate that but I would respectfully request mr. President if the commission would give us 60,

1137
02:06:44,770 --> 02:06:44,770
90 days reprieve to have those conversations with staff at

1138
02:06:48,910 --> 02:06:48,910
your direction and let's talk about what you might look for in the future.

1139
02:06:54,520 --> 02:06:54,520
>> we will take it up in closing and I'll shut up.

1140
02:07:01,620 --> 02:07:04,285
an agriculture company nutrien a, do they pay people to store liquid nitrogen, you think?

1141
02:07:08,575 --> 02:07:11,575
>> I don't know the answer to that question. >> that's a very big no. >> what I'm saying, it's a commercial agriculture product.

1142
02:07:15,685 --> 02:07:18,505
nutrien a, don't just pay your lease tanks out to store on somebody's property. You don't have to answer that.

1143
02:07:23,410 --> 02:07:25,900
>> I'm going to address that in that when there is a commercial application of nitrogen fertilizers,

1144
02:07:29,200 --> 02:07:31,435
those are done by the co-ops in a very expedient way, what we're talking about is not a fast process.

1145
02:07:34,690 --> 02:07:34,690
having access to farms it's somewhat slow and laborious to get this

1146
02:07:39,910 --> 02:07:42,400
done but it's done in the right way for the right reasons in protecting water resources national,

1147
02:07:45,100 --> 02:07:48,550
and supporting the agricultural community. >> I am talking at my end of story. >> okay.

1148
02:07:49,585 --> 02:07:52,220
>> works or lease? You guys pay the lease.

1149
02:07:54,630 --> 02:07:57,960
>> we may have to purchase and build above-ground storage in some areas that we would own and manage.

1150
02:08:01,995 --> 02:08:05,590
>> okay. >> if someone else has that storage, we could potentially lease or pay them for that storage access or for that service.

1151
02:08:10,105 --> 02:08:13,750
>> a farmer doesn't necessarily buy your product. >> no. >> or he would buy liquid nitrogen or whatever from nutrien a.

1152
02:08:21,630 --> 02:08:21,630
back to your commercial waste part.

1153
02:08:25,680 --> 02:08:25,680
I'm familiar with other waste maisel being a by-product

1154
02:08:31,000 --> 02:08:31,000
of ibuprofen comes from north carolina, it comes up here.

1155
02:08:36,220 --> 02:08:37,810
we bring it up all the time, it's a sub-additive of nitrogen,

1156
02:08:40,555 --> 02:08:42,760
and it's stored in tanks. It is commercial waste and when we bring it up,

1157
02:08:45,985 --> 02:08:49,225
it's stored all the nutrient nag and all day and they store it the tanks, anything in closed tanks.

1158
02:08:51,535 --> 02:08:51,535
one issue I have here is with the smell.

1159
02:08:56,965 --> 02:08:56,965
I'm afraid, I don't want to get into the point where poultry manure later on say,

1160
02:09:02,470 --> 02:09:02,470
hey, this is what the moratorium is and it's because of the smell.

1161
02:09:06,475 --> 02:09:10,060
>> correct. >> I don't want poultry manure to be the next day. >> no >> you did it here? >> no.

1162
02:09:10,705 --> 02:09:10,705
>> now we do poultry manure that's never going to happen.

1163
02:09:14,910 --> 02:09:14,910
as far as the permitting process for the woodwork,

1164
02:09:19,680 --> 02:09:21,790
considering a property, that there was no permit issued for this tank.

1165
02:09:24,910 --> 02:09:27,220
if there was a permit process, the neighbors would have had a chance to voice

1166
02:09:30,580 --> 02:09:30,580
their opinion on the effects of their livelihood and they were robbed of that.

1167
02:09:36,220 --> 02:09:36,220
that's something that us commissioner has got to take into consideration.

1168
02:09:40,885 --> 02:09:44,695
that's all I have to end it. I thank you guys for your. >> thank you.

1169
02:09:46,060 --> 02:09:47,350
>> coming in late. >> sitting here. [laughter]

1170
02:09:50,800 --> 02:09:51,910
>> let's do it. >> I'm a little curious that you're surprised by

1171
02:09:55,750 --> 02:09:59,740
the complaints about odor and fly infestation when denali has been sued in multiple states over the last several years for

1172
02:10:03,220 --> 02:10:03,220
exactly that and you're telling us you didn't have any idea that that was happening here?

1173
02:10:08,080 --> 02:10:09,580
>> not on that farm. [overlapping] we have not had a complaint because we operate lagoons and site,

1174
02:10:15,790 --> 02:10:15,790
and excuse me, we operate lagoons and sites nationwide that don't have complaints.

1175
02:10:22,150 --> 02:10:25,030
now and then, there might be owners and there might be issues and we tried to address those.

1176
02:10:27,865 --> 02:10:29,860
we want to be environmentally compliant, operate within the law per state,

1177
02:10:32,290 --> 02:10:32,290
and make sure that we do want to be that good neighbor.

1178
02:10:37,030 --> 02:10:39,550
we want to provide that farmer with nutrients so he can reduce its costs and save money and increase his yield.

1179
02:10:42,310 --> 02:10:44,890
that way he can invest in a new tractor, he can invest in his kid's future,

1180
02:10:46,420 --> 02:10:48,910
he can invest in keeping that family farm. But, until I know there is an issue, I can't respond.

1181
02:10:55,315 --> 02:10:57,505
>> that's what I said. Historically, it has been very site-specific because you can have

1182
02:11:00,820 --> 02:11:03,490
the same exact product being delivered to a different site that may not have many neighbors,

1183
02:11:06,865 --> 02:11:08,890
maybe surrounded by woods, the same exact product applied,

1184
02:11:11,020 --> 02:11:11,020
the same volume, the same month and you have no complaints.

1185
02:11:15,175 --> 02:11:16,975
if there is no complaints, there would be no reason for you to visit that site and do anything about that.

1186
02:11:19,960 --> 02:11:22,810
>> there's no need to be proactive by checking out the site before you let that stuff get next to the people living there.

1187
02:11:25,840 --> 02:11:25,840
>> we respond to the complaints that were filed and this is just one of those examples.

1188
02:11:31,585 --> 02:11:35,380
>> you've been shut down in a couple of states, alabama, missouri. >> we're not shut down.

1189
02:11:36,595 --> 02:11:40,165
>> everybody check the google internet for this. >> I'll just stop.

1190
02:11:43,260 --> 02:11:47,140
>> well, we appreciate you guys coming in and fielding these questions and allowing us to ask.

1191
02:11:50,785 --> 02:11:50,785
I mean, I didn't get answers to some of them specifically.

1192
02:11:55,480 --> 02:11:59,050
>> we can get you those answers. >> correct. >> whatever questions you have, we can get you the answers.

1193
02:12:00,355 --> 02:12:03,700
>> we just couldn't come here today with every answer to every question. >> thank you for coming. I know you probably had to fly in or were you in the area?

1194
02:12:07,609 --> 02:12:11,260
>> [laughter]. >> I saw [inaudible] all you had to jump on a plan to get here. >> honestly, I'm from georgia,

1195
02:12:14,290 --> 02:12:17,380
but I used to spend a lot of time on the eastern shore back in my youth and I really enjoy coming back here.

1196
02:12:20,995 --> 02:12:23,470
it's one of my favorite places to visit and I appreciate what you do for all the citizens of caroline county.

1197
02:12:27,415 --> 02:12:30,190
>> this is believe me, not an easy decision, and I ran for election a year ago,

1198
02:12:32,500 --> 02:12:34,900
I had no idea that I'd be sitting here. >> me neither. >> discussing this so tonight.

1199
02:12:37,456 --> 02:12:41,230
>> [laughter]. >> but anyway, thank you. >> you didn't hear a word about this. [laughter]. >> thank you for coming in. At this time,

1200
02:12:45,865 --> 02:12:49,765
I'm going to open it up to public comments. Go ahead, brian. Since your relative hold on,

1201
02:12:51,790 --> 02:12:54,960
let me give my little spiel over here first. >> he's my wife's cousin, so I'll let him go first.

1202
02:12:58,600 --> 02:13:01,240
[laughter]. Please direct all comments towards the chair.

1203
02:13:03,700 --> 02:13:05,980
do not address any other member of the audience, please or county staff for the interests of time.

1204
02:13:10,360 --> 02:13:12,490
I know we gave these people a lot, but please try to keep your comments to three minutes.

1205
02:13:15,910 --> 02:13:18,280
your time may be extended if you are questioned by one of the commissioners or county staff,

1206
02:13:20,620 --> 02:13:24,430
if your testimony is consistent with the previous person's comments, please just tell us that and try to keep your comments

1207
02:13:28,300 --> 02:13:28,300
shorter to keep the time we're here reasonable.

1208
02:13:33,355 --> 02:13:33,355
when you come forward, please state your name and your address.

1209
02:13:37,510 --> 02:13:40,555
with that, I'll go and open up. >> mr. Smith. >> do I need to stand there? >> yeah. Whatever you want to do

1210
02:13:42,325 --> 02:13:42,325
>> my name is brian smith. I live 268444 voicemail road, greensboro, maryland.

1211
02:13:47,350 --> 02:13:49,510
I'm a lifetime resident of caroline county. I'm a poultry producer of 19 years and I'm a grain producer and I've

1212
02:13:54,550 --> 02:13:56,410
been working for a local poultry company for over 19 years and no way am I here representing that poultry company.

1213
02:13:59,740 --> 02:14:03,310
I'm here representing myself. Just a couple of clarifications, I had like three pages and stuff I wanted to say but,

1214
02:14:05,740 --> 02:14:07,870
I'm going to skip all that. The site is on river road that we're talking about.

1215
02:14:10,555 --> 02:14:13,480
I just want to clarify somebody had mentioned cedar lane. >> it's at the end of cedar lane. >> it's river road.

1216
02:14:15,310 --> 02:14:19,015
first thing the why comma cook county clarification, that was a ban on building new storage structures,

1217
02:14:22,375 --> 02:14:22,375
and currently why comma cook county is still allowing the store to def in their county.

1218
02:14:26,935 --> 02:14:30,450
there's not a moratorium on store to death. The second thing is travis,

1219
02:14:33,190 --> 02:14:36,850
you had mentioned, why don't we just pipe it directly into a string? Well, it's nutrient heavy,

1220
02:14:38,350 --> 02:14:41,650
it's loaded with nutrients so we can't direct discharge into a stream that well. >> well I meant septic system like a draining field,

1221
02:14:44,395 --> 02:14:47,005
not right in if it's safe for groundwater. >> well okay. Maybe I must have misunderstood you, but I mean, basically,

1222
02:14:50,170 --> 02:14:50,170
you can't direct discharge in any local waterway because of the nature of load on it,

1223
02:14:54,910 --> 02:14:54,910
which is why it's a commodity for farmers because of nutrient load.

1224
02:15:01,135 --> 02:15:01,135
the second thing is, it really does affect chickens and it affects all chickens.

1225
02:15:06,820 --> 02:15:10,180
that affects all chicken growers because death is a part of our process. If we cannot store def and use our def,

1226
02:15:14,650 --> 02:15:16,780
the poultry industry is effectively shut down and every bit of my livelihood is tied to the poultry industry.

1227
02:15:21,070 --> 02:15:21,070
I understand that def has a odor and I'm not here to defend that odor at all.

1228
02:15:27,055 --> 02:15:27,055
but I think the reality of it is we've already solved the problem right here.

1229
02:15:31,915 --> 02:15:33,250
you asked the question, how many locations do we have in this county and

1230
02:15:36,220 --> 02:15:39,715
nobody knew because the rest of them have not been a problem. We got one bad actor.

1231
02:15:41,365 --> 02:15:43,765
def is a really good story. It's a poster child for recycling,

1232
02:15:45,655 --> 02:15:48,850
sustainability, nutrient sources for our farmers. It's a great story.

1233
02:15:50,170 --> 02:15:53,365
don't let one bad actor ruin it for everybody. >> overneath cash flow. >> cash flow, it's everything.

1234
02:15:54,790 --> 02:15:56,980
it's a great story, it's a great story for farm, and in our community, we got one bad actor,

1235
02:15:59,335 --> 02:16:01,090
and just from sitting here, sounds like to me we've got enough to pull him out of the mix all together.

1236
02:16:05,350 --> 02:16:07,450
didn't get permits. I mean, if you can't stop a man that didn't get permits from doing business, I don't know.

1237
02:16:10,315 --> 02:16:12,445
I mean, I guess the permits really aren't effective. Stop that guy, shut that site down,

1238
02:16:15,130 --> 02:16:17,500
but let the rest of the sites still operate that aren't causing a problem because they're not I mean,

1239
02:16:20,050 --> 02:16:21,970
they'd been operational for years. We don't even know the amount of sites on accounting because they'd never been a problem.

1240
02:16:25,360 --> 02:16:26,620
if they would've been a problem, we've known about every single site that we have.

1241
02:16:29,365 --> 02:16:31,210
sorry for my passion in this, but this is every bit of

1242
02:16:33,400 --> 02:16:36,655
my livelihood and every bit of my well-being is tied to this poultry industry. I got a 13-year-old son and I want to be a farmer someday,

1243
02:16:39,610 --> 02:16:41,215
and if there's not poultry in this county, there's not farming in this county and that's just the facts of it.

1244
02:16:43,960 --> 02:16:46,600
I appreciate the time. Thank you. >> thank you, brian. >> thank you.

1245
02:16:48,120 --> 02:16:48,120
>> anyone else? Grayson?

1246
02:16:55,080 --> 02:16:57,550
>> not take up too much of your time, I would just say ditto to that,

1247
02:16:59,245 --> 02:17:02,980
but I'll read my statement. A lot of what's been said here is valid.

1248
02:17:06,190 --> 02:17:06,190
again, that was my major question when this all came up and for the record,

1249
02:17:10,600 --> 02:17:14,590
I'm grays middleton with delmarva chicken association, but that was the first thing that came to my mind is why hasn't this been

1250
02:17:18,820 --> 02:17:18,820
handled on the regulatory side if he's out of compliance with permits?

1251
02:17:23,410 --> 02:17:23,410
I don't think the death and the rest of the counties has really been much of an issue.

1252
02:17:29,160 --> 02:17:32,770
I'm not here to defend any one party or any one particular piece of our industry but like I said last time,

1253
02:17:35,950 --> 02:17:39,370
we have many constituent pieces that like that gentleman back there just referred to are affected by each other.

1254
02:17:43,840 --> 02:17:45,265
if one piece is hurt, then they all are and it trickles down very easily more so than you might think.

1255
02:17:51,840 --> 02:17:51,840
we recognize that there are some valid concerns that were expressed in here today.

1256
02:17:57,010 --> 02:17:57,010
I will just say that between my communication with

1257
02:18:01,060 --> 02:18:04,990
the county and then my communication with some of the stakeholders in this room today, it does seem like respectfully,

1258
02:18:06,775 --> 02:18:09,340
there has been a little bit of miscommunication. I think that if we do wait 60 days,

1259
02:18:13,495 --> 02:18:15,850
90 days to have those meetings, to have those conversations,

1260
02:18:17,560 --> 02:18:20,230
to have a public hearing, a lot of those concerns I think that the stakeholders,

1261
02:18:23,380 --> 02:18:25,705
including denali, are willing to address. One of those things being perhaps timing,

1262
02:18:29,005 --> 02:18:29,005
coverage of the containers, road traffic.

1263
02:18:33,325 --> 02:18:33,325
I think those are all issues that can be addressed through open dialogue that frankly,

1264
02:18:38,860 --> 02:18:38,860
I think has been lacking or they're just hasn't been time to have that yet.

1265
02:18:44,100 --> 02:18:44,100
we do have a concern as an organization with

1266
02:18:48,625 --> 02:18:48,625
a generally accepted agricultural practice in maryland being banned by the county.

1267
02:18:54,295 --> 02:18:54,295
I think that that has certain implications that could go further than this county.

1268
02:18:59,890 --> 02:18:59,890
we know that these members here, are ag-friendly,

1269
02:19:04,420 --> 02:19:07,450
but there may come a time in either this county or another one where that's not the case and that's

1270
02:19:10,330 --> 02:19:10,330
something that's less controversial than daf is on the table.

1271
02:19:21,690 --> 02:19:25,030
I would also address the timing. That's already been gone over but again,

1272
02:19:28,480 --> 02:19:30,175
there is that issue of timing. As you know, maryland has nutrient ban from december 15th to february 28th.

1273
02:19:36,100 --> 02:19:36,100
not only has there not been proper discussion on this,

1274
02:19:41,680 --> 02:19:43,780
but it comes at the worst time to enact a 60-day ban because when it can't be put anywhere else.

1275
02:19:50,550 --> 02:19:50,550
our only real request is that this vote be postponed or the actual ban be

1276
02:19:56,590 --> 02:19:56,590
postponed until that there's time to have a meaningful conversation around this issue.

1277
02:20:02,815 --> 02:20:02,815
respectfully, I think that

1278
02:20:08,250 --> 02:20:12,040
the association would be happy to facilitate any kind of that communication between any of our stakeholders and the county.

1279
02:20:16,380 --> 02:20:20,280
>> thank you very much. >> thank you. >> anyone else? Dave?

1280
02:20:24,450 --> 02:20:28,345
>> david chris, director of operations town originally. As far as the farmer practices and stuff go,

1281
02:20:31,030 --> 02:20:32,860
that's beyond my expertise, but I think really what needs to be looked at is the zoning part of it.

1282
02:20:38,215 --> 02:20:41,650
if the one on peavine road happens and I'm still confused why it's not considered an industrial waste.

1283
02:20:44,500 --> 02:20:44,500
hanover foods, all they did were vegetables and that was considered industrial,

1284
02:20:49,195 --> 02:20:51,115
but that's besides the point. If they are allowed to store it in the current lagoons that are out there.

1285
02:20:55,900 --> 02:20:57,970
you're within a mile of a public park. You're within a mile of a school.

1286
02:21:00,220 --> 02:21:00,220
on the wrong day, it's dramatically going to ruin the town originally on a certain wind.

1287
02:21:06,025 --> 02:21:07,780
north wind, northwest wind, the town is going to be covered in it.

1288
02:21:10,075 --> 02:21:10,075
the town has no say over it because it's outside of town limits by 300 feet,

1289
02:21:16,810 --> 02:21:16,810
400 feet, something like that but we're going to yield all the calls.

1290
02:21:20,950 --> 02:21:22,480
we're going to yield all the complaints. We're the ones that are going to get blamed for it so the only thing I can ask you,

1291
02:21:26,275 --> 02:21:28,450
as an employee of the town originally, is to really look at the zoning part of it and push it away from public parks, schools,

1292
02:21:33,880 --> 02:21:36,820
and stuff like that because if the kids can't even go outside during recess because of it, what are we doing?

1293
02:21:39,880 --> 02:21:42,610
[noise] that's all I got. [noise] I appreciate it. >> thank you, dave.

1294
02:21:45,240 --> 02:21:45,240
[overlapping]

1295
02:21:51,100 --> 02:21:51,100
>> then we have the elementary school and then the caroline north little league field,

1296
02:21:55,750 --> 02:21:58,720
which that's all the north side of caroline county, which is right there on the doorstep of

1297
02:22:00,580 --> 02:22:04,015
where this placement. Thank you, guys. I appreciate it. >> thank you, dave. [noise]

1298
02:22:09,970 --> 02:22:13,545
>> george best in 14000 cedar lane. This pit is on river road is not connected to cedar lane. This is nothing new.

1299
02:22:19,110 --> 02:22:19,110
three years ago, the farm across from us, the farmer,

1300
02:22:23,380 --> 02:22:25,300
they brought in similar material, but it was in big mountains of guts and liquid.

1301
02:22:29,170 --> 02:22:32,260
spread it, did not inject it or anything. We had the same horrible time.

1302
02:22:34,075 --> 02:22:37,165
the whole house stunk it. It's not like you couldn't go outside. You couldn't stay inside, close down everything.

1303
02:22:40,720 --> 02:22:42,925
I called the department of agriculture. They sent an inspector out steve zeletski

1304
02:22:45,565 --> 02:22:48,775
and he had other issues with the same farm or another farm. Now, that material came from a different pit up in the northern part of the county.

1305
02:22:52,810 --> 02:22:55,375
I think you all know who that is. These are all after the fact things when the inspectors get called.

1306
02:23:00,265 --> 02:23:00,265
this one this past week was done up cedar lane from our property.

1307
02:23:05,920 --> 02:23:07,810
I could smell it the next day. My friend who lives up there called me and took pictures of river,

1308
02:23:13,435 --> 02:23:17,005
lakes of this stuff. It was not injected into the ground. It was put it right on the top.

1309
02:23:18,895 --> 02:23:18,895
disgusting, there's has got to be an answer that and like the first guy said,

1310
02:23:23,440 --> 02:23:26,545
it's one bad actor. I don't know about these other ones. I'd never heard of this before except for three years ago and then this past week.

1311
02:23:31,900 --> 02:23:35,380
the other question I have is what are the pathogens that are in this material and that the flies carry around.

1312
02:23:38,275 --> 02:23:39,625
our house was covered, same as these other peoples completely black,

1313
02:23:42,925 --> 02:23:45,720
couldn't do anything about it. I see the process and companies as having a large responsibility to

1314
02:23:50,200 --> 02:23:53,860
store this stuff and then if you can apply it properly, okay. If not, don't.

1315
02:23:55,510 --> 02:23:57,280
thank you so much for your time. >> how was the smell at your residence?

1316
02:23:59,965 --> 02:24:03,355
>> saturday morning? It was bad. >> recently? Yes. >> not as bad as a mile up the road.

1317
02:24:05,710 --> 02:24:09,460
I'm about a mile and a quarter down the road from where it was applied. >> okay.

1318
02:24:10,045 --> 02:24:13,795
>> yeah, it was outside. You didn't want to go outside? >> how long did it last, the smell?

1319
02:24:15,535 --> 02:24:17,860
>> all day and it was even smelling yesterday and of course then we have three inches of rain,

1320
02:24:20,980 --> 02:24:24,580
all that flush right down in forge branch, right in the top bank river, right into the bay. Wonderful.

1321
02:24:26,785 --> 02:24:26,785
>> all right, sir. Thank you for your comments.

1322
02:24:31,410 --> 02:24:34,525
>> I'm his down the road neighbor, ben simpson, 14621 cedar lane.

1323
02:24:38,620 --> 02:24:38,620
been married to my wife for 53 years or 54 years or so.

1324
02:24:44,830 --> 02:24:48,565
but been with her for 57. [laughter] don't want to lose her. She's had lung cancer.

1325
02:24:50,425 --> 02:24:52,450
they came and spread the chickens, which I didn't know was going to stink that bad and equipment he had was wooden,

1326
02:24:59,920 --> 02:25:01,765
it was on top of the ground. They could say it was in the teeth were there but the

1327
02:25:04,810 --> 02:25:04,810
moisture or whatever didn't get into ground.

1328
02:25:10,380 --> 02:25:10,380
we didn't know the smell was going to be that bad and that long and it's still is.

1329
02:25:16,780 --> 02:25:16,780
had it in her car, her clothes.

1330
02:25:21,835 --> 02:25:24,190
>> how long ago was this? >> last tuesday.

1331
02:25:27,540 --> 02:25:27,540
it was two days before the rain and it was like there until 11:30 each night.

1332
02:25:34,675 --> 02:25:34,675
then this last episode to come up there did the other part.

1333
02:25:38,680 --> 02:25:42,430
there were so many tractor trailers as this stuff coming down here, it was just unreal.

1334
02:25:44,020 --> 02:25:44,020
I had a friend down the road had washed his car off because

1335
02:25:48,250 --> 02:25:48,250
it was leaking on the road so it's hard to tell where it ends up.

1336
02:25:54,330 --> 02:25:58,150
>> are you experiencing any bad odor because of the stores or is it strictly just the application?

1337
02:26:01,060 --> 02:26:01,060
>> the application. It's kidding.

1338
02:26:06,310 --> 02:26:08,275
holiday, stay in the smell. >> it didn't appear to you that denali was doing the application here.

1339
02:26:11,650 --> 02:26:15,025
this was a private farmer. Do you have any way of knowing?

1340
02:26:17,335 --> 02:26:20,710
>> yeah. >> okay, so it wasn't denali.

1341
02:26:23,230 --> 02:26:24,670
okay. Thank you. >> okay.

1342
02:26:30,180 --> 02:26:30,180
>> mike woodward, 24512 marblehead road.

1343
02:26:34,315 --> 02:26:38,080
I expressed my concerns to this board last week, so I won't go into a whole lot of details.

1344
02:26:41,520 --> 02:26:41,520
this particular application or

1345
02:26:45,580 --> 02:26:45,580
this particular place that we are talking about is storing this material.

1346
02:26:50,830 --> 02:26:50,830
I can tell you firsthand that we live with this 375 days a year, and it's terrible.

1347
02:26:58,900 --> 02:27:00,700
you cannot go outside. If the winds in the right direction then you

1348
02:27:03,100 --> 02:27:03,100
cannot open the front doors because of the flies that come into the house.

1349
02:27:07,930 --> 02:27:10,330
if you talk about a public nuisance, we got one and we need to do something about it.

1350
02:27:13,015 --> 02:27:15,460
I appreciate what the board is doing. I don't know how he's taken care of this farm.

1351
02:27:20,740 --> 02:27:22,720
don't care. It's not my business. But when when it starts spilling over to my property,

1352
02:27:25,600 --> 02:27:25,600
it is my business because this is reducing my land values of my farm.

1353
02:27:29,740 --> 02:27:33,370
because nobody would ever want to buy a place like this, smelling the way it smells around it.

1354
02:27:35,395 --> 02:27:39,340
we keep a pretty decent place, I think. We try to anyway. But land values are going to go down in the whole neighborhood because of this.

1355
02:27:45,640 --> 02:27:45,640
I have a picture here I'd like to introduce to you of the concrete storage tank.

1356
02:27:53,560 --> 02:27:55,780
it's overrunning its sides. It's actually spilling on the ground.

1357
02:27:58,465 --> 02:28:01,315
this picture was taken on the 17th, which was last sunday. I don't know who I give it to.

1358
02:28:07,650 --> 02:28:10,510
>> [inaudible] >> certainly, pass it around there. >> mr woodward, can I ask you a question?

1359
02:28:11,980 --> 02:28:14,820
>> you sure can. >> I think, when we talked out at your farm that you had indicated,

1360
02:28:21,670 --> 02:28:21,670
or there had been indication that there had been some communication with the owner?

1361
02:28:29,725 --> 02:28:31,270
>> that's correct. >> he was at least aware of?

1362
02:28:33,820 --> 02:28:37,120
>> yes. He was definitely aware. >> I'm not questioning whether he knew or not, but he knew that there were problems.

1363
02:28:39,850 --> 02:28:42,520
I think, you have been in communication with him, text message, phone calls.

1364
02:28:47,610 --> 02:28:47,610
that goes back to my question, again, rhetorically.

1365
02:28:54,760 --> 02:28:58,090
if there's a way to do something about this, I'm not going to buy the fact that no one knew,

1366
02:29:02,845 --> 02:29:04,645
because they did know, because you have been in direct communication.

1367
02:29:07,960 --> 02:29:07,960
>> I had been for programs on health stuff that related to them flies.

1368
02:29:12,325 --> 02:29:16,300
because there's programs that go along with that through mda, and environmental, and whatever.

1369
02:29:18,310 --> 02:29:21,835
I asked him for those programs. Nothing. >> okay. While the communications may not have been with denali,

1370
02:29:30,505 --> 02:29:32,560
they were with the person? >> they were with the guy that owns the farm.

1371
02:29:34,675 --> 02:29:37,915
>> you did not reach out to denali? >> no, sir. >> okay. >> no, sir. Did not. The other concern is

1372
02:29:41,230 --> 02:29:44,485
about groundwater and contamination to the groundwater. My well is probably I'm going to guess

1373
02:29:47,095 --> 02:29:50,755
100 yards from the edge of the field where this is being applied. Plus we have the concentration of the daf that's in the tank,

1374
02:29:55,330 --> 02:29:59,245
that's spilling over the sides that you had the picture of. That's going to go somewhere. It's not going to just sit there.

1375
02:30:01,075 --> 02:30:01,075
it's going to go into the groundwater and it's going to go into the aquifer.

1376
02:30:05,755 --> 02:30:05,755
we have pictures of a ditch right beside our house that has a skim on it.

1377
02:30:10,525 --> 02:30:13,615
you can tell it's a skim on top of the water. >> have you contacted mda to have them come out and look at it?

1378
02:30:16,930 --> 02:30:18,670
>> no, sir. >> I think they've been out there. I contacted mda.

1379
02:30:21,450 --> 02:30:21,450
from what I've been told from mda that everybody that's been applying,

1380
02:30:25,960 --> 02:30:25,960
the different calls that they have received mda said everything is applied.

1381
02:30:30,865 --> 02:30:33,985
now, it could have been like the other night, the one that you said that wasn't done properly.

1382
02:30:37,060 --> 02:30:39,580
if mda was called and they didn't research that, but the times that mda has been called,

1383
02:30:41,860 --> 02:30:41,860
they said they had never found a wrongdoing as far as, injection on the ground.

1384
02:30:46,705 --> 02:30:47,245
>> yes. >> mr. Wood, how often? Since you've been there,

1385
02:30:51,985 --> 02:30:55,240
has it always been put on that farm next to you? >> it was put on that particular field right by my house last spring.

1386
02:30:59,155 --> 02:31:01,690
it was applied last spring, and it was applied again this fall. >> this fall and they'll probably apply it again this spring again as well.

1387
02:31:04,525 --> 02:31:07,690
>> I'm pretty sure it's probably his plans. I don't know for sure, but I would guess it's probably what's going to happen.

1388
02:31:10,060 --> 02:31:10,060
he did put an aerial cover crop on the corn while it was still standing.

1389
02:31:14,155 --> 02:31:14,155
but then he come through and actually supposedly knifed in,

1390
02:31:19,495 --> 02:31:22,060
the daf right over the cover crop, so the cover crops basically gone.

1391
02:31:26,970 --> 02:31:26,970
if they put it on, my question is they say how good it is to the soil.

1392
02:31:32,530 --> 02:31:36,400
well, that's okay. In the springtime, you can see where it would take up the nutrients with the coordinate is being planted,

1393
02:31:38,410 --> 02:31:42,280
but in the fall, where does the nutrients go? They don't just sit there in the ground. They're going to go somewhere. It's groundwater runoff or whatever.

1394
02:31:47,155 --> 02:31:49,480
they're going to go somewhere because it's liquid. >> is this issue with odor and flies,

1395
02:31:53,620 --> 02:31:53,620
is it in a particular time during the year, or is it year-round?

1396
02:31:58,225 --> 02:32:01,345
>> it's year-round. For us, if the winds out of the southeast, we get it.

1397
02:32:04,330 --> 02:32:07,510
if it's for the rest of the neighborhood, the winds either the north or northwest,

1398
02:32:10,015 --> 02:32:13,855
whatever, because the pit sits in the middle, and all the neighbors around it, they're going to pick up the odor because it's the way the winds blow.

1399
02:32:17,550 --> 02:32:20,560
I was told that the crust that formed on it, and it helped control the odor.

1400
02:32:21,820 --> 02:32:24,400
but I'm here to tell you it doesn't stop the flies, it doesn't stop the odor.

1401
02:32:26,550 --> 02:32:29,740
whatever can be done to stop the odor. >> when I was out, I think I came out last tuesday after our meeting and we talked.

1402
02:32:34,630 --> 02:32:34,630
I didn't notice anything. But somebody else must have been getting it at that point.

1403
02:32:39,265 --> 02:32:42,745
>> it was on the front of them, it was on the river road side. >> mr. Bartz smelled it. [laughter].

1404
02:32:45,160 --> 02:32:48,010
>> yes. Wednesday. >> so we've been out there bothering you. [laughter] >> that's okay [laughter]. I welcome that.

1405
02:32:50,830 --> 02:32:53,350
an unwelcome odor and the nuisance that this causing to all and the whole neighborhood because

1406
02:32:56,500 --> 02:32:59,950
it's really going to degrade our property values and degrade our property so we can't even stay outside.

1407
02:33:04,000 --> 02:33:06,100
I work at a small saw mill during the week, and I couldn't even stand to be out there the other day.

1408
02:33:09,160 --> 02:33:09,160
it was that bad. Thank you for your help. I appreciate it.

1409
02:33:13,720 --> 02:33:14,290
>> thank you. >> thank you.

1410
02:33:20,850 --> 02:33:20,850
>> my name is justin [inaudible], 1734 river road.

1411
02:33:25,885 --> 02:33:28,540
I appreciate you guys bringing this together. Everything that's been said here, I agree with.

1412
02:33:30,880 --> 02:33:34,675
but the one thing that I want to point out is I own an electrical company here in caroline county, and if I don't have a permit, I get a stop work order.

1413
02:33:37,075 --> 02:33:40,660
like you guys had mentioned, it has robbed us with our opportunity to voice our opinion and if you don't follow the proper channels,

1414
02:33:43,990 --> 02:33:46,440
what's the point of a permit at all. That's all I've got to say. Thank you, gentlemen.

1415
02:33:48,925 --> 02:33:49,570
>> thank you. >> stewart, check your texts.

1416
02:33:57,430 --> 02:33:59,800
>> jean myers, 13264. I'm going to talk fast because I only got three minutes, I got a lot to say.

1417
02:34:02,815 --> 02:34:05,305
13264 river road. I live down the end of river road.

1418
02:34:07,525 --> 02:34:10,855
I have been a lifetime resident of caroline county. I raised my children,

1419
02:34:12,295 --> 02:34:14,755
my husband and I do things to benefit the county. We volunteer. We don't take from the county.

1420
02:34:17,425 --> 02:34:20,335
we don't make money from the county. My property borders one of the potential distribution sites.

1421
02:34:25,675 --> 02:34:25,675
in the proximity a five-mile appropriate circumference,

1422
02:34:30,265 --> 02:34:30,265
there are four properties that are associated with this holding tank property.

1423
02:34:34,960 --> 02:34:37,555
they are potential distribution sites, two additional properties on river road,

1424
02:34:39,580 --> 02:34:40,900
one on cedar lane, and the one in ridgely, peavine road.

1425
02:34:45,130 --> 02:34:45,130
all of those property owners that have adjacent properties to

1426
02:34:49,810 --> 02:34:52,750
these distribution sites should be aware of the potential odors that are coming their way.

1427
02:34:56,005 --> 02:34:58,555
it's a decrease of the property value. All of us are rural residents.

1428
02:35:00,565 --> 02:35:03,625
we have our own wells. What's it going to do to our water table? I have a shallow well.

1429
02:35:05,320 --> 02:35:05,320
my shallow well is probably less than 150 feet from the edge of

1430
02:35:09,910 --> 02:35:09,910
this field where this stuff was distributed for three days, night and day.

1431
02:35:16,015 --> 02:35:16,015
this man has proved that he has no regard for the rules and regulations of the county,

1432
02:35:22,495 --> 02:35:25,195
because he did not get any permit to do this. What do you think that he's going to do to follow

1433
02:35:27,700 --> 02:35:30,430
the guidelines that you establish on this gentleman. Anybody from the county knows,

1434
02:35:32,065 --> 02:35:34,540
you can't put a kiddie pool out without permit. But yet, he's been able to do this.

1435
02:35:36,715 --> 02:35:38,560
as far as the smell, I feel so sorry for the residents like mr. Woodward.

1436
02:35:41,335 --> 02:35:45,130
I passed by there one day, the odor got in my car. It took two days to get it out of my car.

1437
02:35:47,485 --> 02:35:49,435
I didn't even roll my windows down. I experienced the odor firsthand this past week when he

1438
02:35:52,570 --> 02:35:55,675
spread it on the property adjacent to ours. There are so many people in that five-mile radius.

1439
02:35:58,075 --> 02:36:01,195
one of the properties is the fuchs farm right next to the high school. How are those kids are going to go out and do their sports?

1440
02:36:04,015 --> 02:36:06,310
have parents come to outdoor activities, if he's got this mess spread out there?

1441
02:36:08,680 --> 02:36:10,480
it's so close to the trap tank, who's to say it's not going to affect the runoff.

1442
02:36:13,810 --> 02:36:16,510
the thing with this is, there are so many people in that five-mile radius that aren't even aware.

1443
02:36:19,030 --> 02:36:22,285
I was not even aware of the meeting last week or the meeting this week. I think the people that this could greatly affect need to be informed of

1444
02:36:26,980 --> 02:36:26,980
the possibility that their life will be altered once this stuff is comes to the county.

1445
02:36:33,025 --> 02:36:36,250
I appreciate you listening to me and appreciate you taking the time for doing what you were doing and I appreciate anybody that came today to support me.

1446
02:36:40,345 --> 02:36:40,345
>> thank you. Is there anyone else?

1447
02:36:50,230 --> 02:36:50,230
>> it's just me. I'm john bucker.

1448
02:36:54,925 --> 02:36:57,235
I live at 506 maple avenue, ridgely. I'm actually a resident there and commissioner.

1449
02:37:00,235 --> 02:37:03,415
I want to agree with what david chris said, and what everybody else has been saying.

1450
02:37:06,600 --> 02:37:06,600
this issue, my wife actually has a school bus and the smells now inside her school bus,

1451
02:37:12,760 --> 02:37:15,010
and the kids are always complaining about how the bus smells from the odor that comes off of river road.

1452
02:37:19,800 --> 02:37:22,570
I just think it's going to be a big problem. It's going to bring everybody's value down.

1453
02:37:25,090 --> 02:37:27,775
the way we've built ridgely up, there's going to be people selling

1454
02:37:29,500 --> 02:37:29,500
houses and getting out of here. That's all I got to say.

1455
02:37:33,700 --> 02:37:37,260
>> thank you. >> jim lewis, 123 [inaudible] ridgely.

1456
02:37:41,260 --> 02:37:43,315
I don't live anywhere near that, so I just wanted to answer a question for you that somebody asked so you would know.

1457
02:37:45,910 --> 02:37:49,120
environmentally or chemistry wise in the soil, if you apply it in the fall, it's going to stay in the organic form.

1458
02:37:51,430 --> 02:37:54,430
it's not going to convert to a nitrate forms. It's going to leach into the ground water, so as long as it's still in bionutrient management plan,

1459
02:37:57,100 --> 02:37:58,240
that part of it's actually okay. But that has nothing to do with the odor and we're really not addressing in that.

1460
02:38:01,105 --> 02:38:04,780
the other thing I want to bring up while I'm up here that I can't ask them, but I would think that you all would ask them,

1461
02:38:06,595 --> 02:38:09,835
denali could fix this, the poultry industry could fix this in a heartbeat. Just never let this man that there's a problem,

1462
02:38:12,865 --> 02:38:15,130
ever have it again on any of those properties, any place that he has at anywhere around,

1463
02:38:17,605 --> 02:38:20,890
they fix the problem real quick. If they promised somehow that to you, then that solves a lot of these problems.

1464
02:38:22,975 --> 02:38:26,875
you don't have to get through hearings to address it. You don't have to do lawsuits with the person. They can address it real quick like that. Thanks.

1465
02:38:30,315 --> 02:38:30,840
>> thank you. >> as far as the application of it goes,

1466
02:38:37,660 --> 02:38:37,660
I think we're trending a fine line on right

1467
02:38:42,070 --> 02:38:42,070
to farm-act when it comes to the application process.

1468
02:38:48,690 --> 02:38:52,465
but the storage again, I think is what we need to address here,

1469
02:38:56,995 --> 02:38:58,990
not so much the application. I agree that with the odor,

1470
02:39:02,760 --> 02:39:02,760
we have a fine line here when it comes to agriculture.

1471
02:39:07,015 --> 02:39:10,555
that when we apply things, that's what we do here.

1472
02:39:13,165 --> 02:39:15,040
it's agriculture, whether it be chicken manure, cow manure, any type of roundup spray that you smell.

1473
02:39:19,885 --> 02:39:19,885
I understand you're going to cure different smells throughout the year.

1474
02:39:25,620 --> 02:39:25,620
the state regulates this as far as its sole amendment.

1475
02:39:29,875 --> 02:39:33,190
you were preaching up the wrong tree here to try to stop any type of application of this product.

1476
02:39:36,385 --> 02:39:39,010
any farmer, I think, can tell you that. But as far as the storage,

1477
02:39:40,540 --> 02:39:40,540
I think the storage is the main factor here. That's where I stand.

1478
02:39:44,695 --> 02:39:46,825
hey, I live out in the middle of a farm. I experience odors all the time.

1479
02:39:49,600 --> 02:39:49,600
I think we need to keep these two things separate.

1480
02:39:57,300 --> 02:40:00,745
>> go ahead. >> we can show you pictures of, we're talking a difference between application as a way to properly

1481
02:40:04,150 --> 02:40:07,840
apply this stuff by injecting it and you see these pictures. >> [overlapping] I think what commissioner bartz is saying,

1482
02:40:11,740 --> 02:40:11,740
in that argument or that discussion conversation needs to be had with mda, not with us.

1483
02:40:17,710 --> 02:40:20,695
that's maryland, but we don't disagree. It's just that we don't have regulatory authority over that.

1484
02:40:25,045 --> 02:40:27,070
we feel like we have the ability to control storage because we feel like it's a commercial venture.

1485
02:40:32,005 --> 02:40:34,255
you're being compensated to store it. It's an industrial waste product.

1486
02:40:37,060 --> 02:40:38,545
I don't care how mda, it comes from an industrial facility and people are paid to take it.

1487
02:40:41,500 --> 02:40:44,920
I don't know what other definition you could add to industrial waste. Then, it comes from an industrial property and people are paid to take it.

1488
02:40:48,925 --> 02:40:48,925
you can dance around semantics on how you're being compensated,

1489
02:40:54,910 --> 02:40:57,600
but ultimately you're being compensated. We really do believe that the chicken companies

1490
02:41:00,865 --> 02:41:00,865
and their vendors who take this product have culpability here.

1491
02:41:08,275 --> 02:41:09,850
it's their responsibility. It's ultimately a product that they're producing.

1492
02:41:13,390 --> 02:41:16,750
I would rather not be here because there are going to be people who store that I've spoken to.

1493
02:41:19,600 --> 02:41:23,215
brian feels passionately about continuing the storage. I've spoken to other residents in the county who benefit from it.

1494
02:41:27,880 --> 02:41:31,825
I understand all of those positions, but also, when I see someone taking advantage of the system,

1495
02:41:36,310 --> 02:41:39,360
which is what I feel like here. I feel like it's an unoccupied territory by the state,

1496
02:41:43,840 --> 02:41:43,840
which we have every right to jump into and regulate.

1497
02:41:50,640 --> 02:41:53,980
>> again, I'd like to follow up what you said. >> we can't pick and choose though either.

1498
02:41:56,455 --> 02:42:00,070
>> the man doesn't have the permit, so that starts to give you the ability to say, hey, look, this guy didn't even have the permit to build this structure, shut him down.

1499
02:42:04,975 --> 02:42:08,170
because there's other facilities that have operated without an issue. >> but the hanover, brian, if we don't,

1500
02:42:10,645 --> 02:42:14,455
and the hanover facility goes into storage, if they start to store material outside of ridgely.

1501
02:42:18,100 --> 02:42:21,160
>> how about you do this? Why don't you say let's do it more like [inaudible] county let's ban any additional storage sites.

1502
02:42:25,495 --> 02:42:28,375
include this one that's the problem. He's not permitted properly and let the other facilities that are

1503
02:42:32,380 --> 02:42:32,380
working fine, let them continue.

1504
02:42:36,715 --> 02:42:40,240
but to say, look for now, let's stop any new ones. Let's shut this guy down he's not permitted,

1505
02:42:42,505 --> 02:42:44,110
the people who then doing it right. [overlapping] >> that one's already constructed though.

1506
02:42:47,575 --> 02:42:51,265
>> mr. President? >> yes, sir. >> I can state for the record, because we had a conference call yesterday.

1507
02:42:53,845 --> 02:42:53,845
denali said they will not deliver any materials at all.

1508
02:43:01,120 --> 02:43:04,300
soil conditioners to that ridgely location. That will not be a location that will be a denali served facility,

1509
02:43:09,570 --> 02:43:13,215
either of storage or land app, so if it helps your consideration. I can say that for the record.

1510
02:43:15,405 --> 02:43:18,245
>> is it currently at denali? >> no. It was referred to earlier as a potential site.

1511
02:43:23,395 --> 02:43:25,630
for the record, I just learned about it yesterday, but my client said they will take

1512
02:43:29,140 --> 02:43:32,680
that off the table to the extent that it was considered [noise]. >> where's it coming from now?

1513
02:43:34,645 --> 02:43:36,865
>> recently, it's not in storage. >> was it considered a potential site?

1514
02:43:39,055 --> 02:43:39,055
>> for some water processing residuals.

1515
02:43:46,170 --> 02:43:46,170
>> I agree.

1516
02:43:50,910 --> 02:43:53,020
I'm not a lawyer, I wish I was, because I probably wouldn't be up here.

1517
02:43:57,480 --> 02:43:57,480
I think that I need to take a little step back here because I am concerned about,

1518
02:44:09,000 --> 02:44:09,000
it's not prosecution, but picking out one person.

1519
02:44:14,860 --> 02:44:18,415
I agree, I don't work up. But, if we have a person that is not doing what you're supposed to be doing,

1520
02:44:25,555 --> 02:44:29,290
I'm fine with dealing with that person. I just don't know from a legal standpoint,

1521
02:44:32,170 --> 02:44:35,530
if we can selectively pick someone. If we can, if I'm going to agree to a polls or study period,

1522
02:44:46,120 --> 02:44:49,930
then I'm going to want a number of things. I'm going to want there to be

1523
02:44:51,385 --> 02:44:55,240
a specific time limit on it because this isn't going to drag out. We're not going to be talking about this 10 years from now.

1524
02:44:57,385 --> 02:44:59,650
this is an immediate problem. I'm going to want something that's going to say that there will

1525
02:45:04,120 --> 02:45:04,120
be no new facilities that would be started.

1526
02:45:10,440 --> 02:45:14,070
but I am not interested in going back and hurting the people who were in

1527
02:45:15,750 --> 02:45:18,695
operation now who've been doing what you're supposed to be doing. I'm not interested in doing that.

1528
02:45:20,605 --> 02:45:20,605
my concern from setting up your allotted a long time has been,

1529
02:45:24,985 --> 02:45:27,070
and I'm looking at my council here, is it possible to address one facility?

1530
02:45:31,360 --> 02:45:34,105
>> the proper channels haven't been taken. >> pardon? >> the proper channels haven't been taken, they haven't followed the parameters.

1531
02:45:37,495 --> 02:45:40,615
>> there are things that are in place addressing that. But my concern is from an overall standpoint,

1532
02:45:43,435 --> 02:45:46,150
if we have a person, and I guess there's no one here representing him I'm assuming.

1533
02:45:50,905 --> 02:45:53,590
>> not to my knowledge. >> okay. >> so he doesn't even care. He didn't show up.

1534
02:46:00,030 --> 02:46:03,790
>> well, I think he cares in what is being said. But if that's possible to do,

1535
02:46:07,330 --> 02:46:09,910
then I'm leaning toward that, but I'm going to need some time to find out.

1536
02:46:12,715 --> 02:46:12,715
>> thank you mr. Porter, I don't disagree with anything you've just said.

1537
02:46:16,930 --> 02:46:16,930
I do want to reiterate something that this gentleman said often in his statement.

1538
02:46:22,630 --> 02:46:24,655
he's in the poultry business. Because the wicomico county column legislation came up.

1539
02:46:28,255 --> 02:46:31,810
I did want the commissioners to be aware that in wicomico county he was correct. They didn't ban storage facilities,

1540
02:46:34,165 --> 02:46:36,430
they've regulated where they could be. In other words, the storage facilities for

1541
02:46:38,770 --> 02:46:41,155
that material are stalled out of wicomico county. They just regulated where they have to [overlapping].

1542
02:46:44,710 --> 02:46:44,710
>> but mr. Crawford, did they also institute that they had to be in sealed containers?

1543
02:46:53,160 --> 02:46:56,755
>> I'm going to try this from memory. >> I understand. >> okay. I don't have it in front of me.

1544
02:46:58,255 --> 02:46:58,255
I think legislation affected both covered and non-covered,

1545
02:47:04,365 --> 02:47:04,365
and how it's regulated differed depending upon whether it was covered, or non-covered.

1546
02:47:09,660 --> 02:47:13,365
that's my memory. But I just want this board to be aware of, they did not go to a panel of storage facilities.

1547
02:47:17,320 --> 02:47:20,070
they just determined where this facility is going to be. >> as I said, I've gone back and tried to research and tried to read those cases.

1548
02:47:23,830 --> 02:47:26,020
I hate reading. I don't know how you guys do it, but I mean, I've tried to read these cases to find out exactly what they did.

1549
02:47:29,710 --> 02:47:33,040
>> but I also agree from an enforcement perspective, if you have a property owner and some non-compliance,

1550
02:47:35,320 --> 02:47:35,320
either from local zoning perspective or state regulatory oversight,

1551
02:47:39,850 --> 02:47:39,850
it really is a site-specific, operator specific issue.

1552
02:47:47,485 --> 02:47:50,530
there are avenues for everybody. This set of commissioners and the public.

1553
02:47:52,945 --> 02:47:56,620
members of the public contact mde, mba, whomever, that was going to issue permits for this particular site and pursue enforcement.

1554
02:48:01,690 --> 02:48:05,380
it just sounds to me like that's really the crux of this hearing. >> are there other companies?

1555
02:48:09,900 --> 02:48:09,900
I would assume that there are probably some other companies who would

1556
02:48:14,620 --> 02:48:14,620
deliver or produce or provide this material other than denali?

1557
02:48:20,050 --> 02:48:22,240
>> yes, sir. There's many. >> do you know if there's any providing the materials in caroline county?

1558
02:48:26,095 --> 02:48:26,095
>> I do not.

1559
02:48:31,440 --> 02:48:34,750
>> it would be [overlapping] >> it would be a different competitor of ours.

1560
02:48:36,940 --> 02:48:40,330
it wouldn't be the processor specifically, it would be a service provider, a contractor to them.

1561
02:48:42,145 --> 02:48:44,305
there's several other companies. >> there's other companies and not only denali does it,

1562
02:48:46,840 --> 02:48:50,410
you guys spoke it at the beginning of the meeting. They want the people that you represent as far as taking a product. [overlapping]

1563
02:48:55,270 --> 02:48:58,540
>> what is this large companies, middle-sized and there's even [noise] local companies that usually do it on a local basis depending on the residual.

1564
02:49:01,810 --> 02:49:01,810
>> what would prevent us sitting down with you and all of these parties,

1565
02:49:10,390 --> 02:49:12,220
and you saying, I'm not going to provide this material to this specific site.

1566
02:49:16,420 --> 02:49:16,420
what would prevent another company from coming in and bring it to them?

1567
02:49:21,390 --> 02:49:23,305
>> nothing. >> other than the permitting issue,

1568
02:49:25,450 --> 02:49:27,715
I've got to agree with commissioner bartz, in other words, if this particular operator can't get the permits

1569
02:49:31,090 --> 02:49:31,090
to utilize this site for storage and/or land application, it will be that.

1570
02:49:37,075 --> 02:49:40,270
obviously denali can't bind. >> now, I understand. >> I think ultimately the producers need to be in

1571
02:49:42,430 --> 02:49:45,295
the room because they have control over where it goes. Allan's, mountaire, purdue.

1572
02:49:47,755 --> 02:49:47,755
I think that's where this all starts.

1573
02:49:51,865 --> 02:49:54,595
>> I think they should be in the discussion. >> they have control of the product, apparently.

1574
02:49:57,430 --> 02:49:58,345
>> they control the product. >> I think we do. I think we have the ability to regulate it as well, but we'll see.

1575
02:50:08,970 --> 02:50:11,740
>> is there anyone else who would like to speak? >> I just have a comment. Our road is not designed for

1576
02:50:14,590 --> 02:50:14,590
that monstrous trunk to tear up and down it all day.

1577
02:50:19,525 --> 02:50:20,545
>> no. >> [noise] the smell. [noise] what comes off it is contaminating the entire neighborhood.

1578
02:50:27,505 --> 02:50:30,985
>> ma'am, what is your name and address? >> oh, I'm sorry. D. Gesford, and I live at 1375 river road.

1579
02:50:40,170 --> 02:50:44,155
just to say one last thing. >> yes. >> can you just hold off until after the new year before you talk.

1580
02:50:49,360 --> 02:50:53,065
[laughter] we doubt it's going to happen between now and after january 1st. >> a lot of [overlapping] stuff can be hauled into

1581
02:50:54,640 --> 02:50:56,770
this county and dumped into pits and a lot of people in this room could be adversely affected by the smell and the flies.

1582
02:51:02,100 --> 02:51:06,070
that could happen with all due respect, sir. A lot of material could be hauled in over the holidays and dumped into these lagoons.

1583
02:51:13,800 --> 02:51:13,800
>> [overlapping] they're hauling them.

1584
02:51:19,510 --> 02:51:21,100
>> this gentleman would like to say something. >> I just want to say, the smell it hadn't gone yet and they don't respond six days.

1585
02:51:29,550 --> 02:51:32,440
when it was supposed to shut down, I think it was friday night,

1586
02:51:36,420 --> 02:51:38,740
he was flipping on top, it wasn't going in the graph.

1587
02:51:40,705 --> 02:51:42,720
>> right? >> the backup on my statement of mr.

1588
02:51:45,610 --> 02:51:45,610
breeding, long stains are applied,

1589
02:51:50,005 --> 02:51:53,485
the way they're supposed to be done, how they are supposed to be doing. We have no jurisdiction over that.

1590
02:51:57,175 --> 02:52:00,280
>> every time we are exposed to it, why are we sitting in here? >> I thought I was disagreeing there.

1591
02:52:02,680 --> 02:52:06,370
but let's say that's something we can't even touch. But like I said, the storage part,

1592
02:52:07,900 --> 02:52:07,900
one thing that concerns me with the storage and I never touched

1593
02:52:12,580 --> 02:52:12,580
about it earlier is when you take it from multiple sources and it goes into one tank.

1594
02:52:17,005 --> 02:52:19,210
I could see when one farmer stores it for himself and applies it to his fields in general.

1595
02:52:24,085 --> 02:52:27,130
but when you store it in mass, and it gets distributed to multiple farms,

1596
02:52:31,375 --> 02:52:33,505
all over the place. That to me it's a fine line from right to farm, hey,

1597
02:52:38,770 --> 02:52:41,920
this is my little corner of the world and I'm taking this stuff and I'm going to apply to my fields and it's going to stay here.

1598
02:52:46,210 --> 02:52:50,200
but when you said it concretes all in one great big and masses of gallons and it goes in all different directions.

1599
02:52:54,310 --> 02:52:54,310
that to me becomes commercial storage and a commercial facility.

1600
02:52:59,410 --> 02:53:02,680
>> can I respond to that? >> sure. >> everywhere you store these materials or even fertilizer,

1601
02:53:07,195 --> 02:53:10,180
you have to comply with a plethora of laws, rules, regulations, environmental and otherwise.

1602
02:53:13,270 --> 02:53:15,070
in other words, to store this material, we had to make sure that it complies with certain regulations and goals.

1603
02:53:19,135 --> 02:53:21,970
the more locations where you do that, the greater the risk of a violation because you're

1604
02:53:25,120 --> 02:53:28,540
trying to control and contain at more locations. The more locations the higher the risk.

1605
02:53:30,670 --> 02:53:34,390
most farmers will tell you, and I think all farmers will tell you, they prefer to store at one location because it's easier to contain,

1606
02:53:39,970 --> 02:53:41,635
it's easier to control. Then they deliver it from that location to

1607
02:53:44,020 --> 02:53:47,215
the other properties they either own or manage. It's a control benefit not only for

1608
02:53:50,650 --> 02:53:50,650
the farmer but quite honestly for the community because the risk of a violation,

1609
02:53:55,420 --> 02:53:58,585
the risk of a leak, the risk of a contamination, if that was even viable,

1610
02:54:00,475 --> 02:54:04,240
is greater at the more locations you're storing it. That's why they prefer to do it in one location or I'll say fewer,

1611
02:54:08,575 --> 02:54:12,370
but predominantly one location and take it from there after their other properties. >> there's only so many locations that you can go to.

1612
02:54:14,725 --> 02:54:16,300
>> well, it depends on the farmer. If you have a farm that's forming 2000 acres and it's 10 different farms.

1613
02:54:20,890 --> 02:54:20,890
but he either owns or leases all those 10 farms and he has one farm

1614
02:54:26,050 --> 02:54:26,050
that's best to store because it either has concrete bunkers or otherwise,

1615
02:54:31,375 --> 02:54:34,840
then the farmer is going to store it at the one location, but utilize it to all of the locations.

1616
02:54:37,990 --> 02:54:41,785
>> you've misunderstood, I'm talking about the one farmer that stores it all. >> right.

1617
02:54:42,310 --> 02:54:45,505
>> goes to multiple farmers, individual farmers. That's two different things here.

1618
02:54:47,980 --> 02:54:50,305
>> you and I are talking apples and oranges. >> yes. >> I'm talking serious farmer saying.

1619
02:54:53,365 --> 02:54:56,770
>> I see what you're saying. I understand that. I'm talking about commercial storage where they take it from and stored in

1620
02:55:00,520 --> 02:55:00,520
one big location and then it goes to this farmer, it goes to that farmer.

1621
02:55:05,550 --> 02:55:08,095
wherever we can put it in the ground. Whoever take it that's the issue.

1622
02:55:10,420 --> 02:55:11,560
>> that's not what I was addressing. >> no, you're fine. That's what I'm talking about.

1623
02:55:15,840 --> 02:55:18,070
>> yeah, steve. >> where you're treading on a little bit of a funny bridge

1624
02:55:20,950 --> 02:55:20,950
there when you start talking about storing it one place and taking it out.

1625
02:55:25,135 --> 02:55:28,780
you're talking about def product. We also in this county, we have some guys that are doing the same thing with chicken manure,

1626
02:55:32,365 --> 02:55:32,365
doing the same thing with waste products that come from walmart,

1627
02:55:37,750 --> 02:55:39,595
and whatever being composted. They're all being put in one place and then they're

1628
02:55:41,830 --> 02:55:44,515
being sold out or taken in other places. It's not only the def that you're treading on

1629
02:55:47,470 --> 02:55:51,445
a gun with fine line there when you start talking about storage, it has to be stored this time of the year because the state will not let anybody buy.

1630
02:55:56,990 --> 02:56:00,970
>> poultry manure is made on the farm itself. >> yeah, but it isn't used by every farmer.

1631
02:56:04,120 --> 02:56:07,105
>> but [overlapping] it's made by the farmer. >> there are also people now that are cleaning out houses,

1632
02:56:10,675 --> 02:56:12,010
taking it and storing it, and then redistributing it in the spring or all winter long.

1633
02:56:15,595 --> 02:56:15,595
it's not just the def that you're talking about, it's other storage.

1634
02:56:19,795 --> 02:56:22,705
>> it's stored in a maryland? >> garden. >> it's stored in a maryland-approved facility into a manure shed.

1635
02:56:26,800 --> 02:56:30,685
>> I don't know that all of it. I can show you plenty of them that aren't, I'm not getting into that. >> no I saw the number.

1636
02:56:31,660 --> 02:56:35,500
>> but I can show you how funny they are. >> I'm sure you can. I can do a bubble to look hard. >> I mean, you're treading on thin ice

1637
02:56:39,010 --> 02:56:42,520
by doing this here because then you open it up to the next one. >> certainly you should question.

1638
02:56:43,390 --> 02:56:43,930
>> something like that. >> then you open it up. If they didn't pay you to take it would you take it?

1639
02:56:47,890 --> 02:56:50,670
>> I don't get paid to take it. >> would you take it for free?

1640
02:56:52,960 --> 02:56:55,570
>> I would, I have taken them for free. >> okay. >> it's a very good ground.

1641
02:56:57,070 --> 02:56:58,765
>> you answered my question. That's fine. >> I didn't have to use any commercial fertilizer, [inaudible].

1642
02:57:04,420 --> 02:57:05,470
you're taking a product, it's an end product of our chicken industry,

1643
02:57:09,025 --> 02:57:09,025
putting it back on the ground growing another grain to grow more chickens.

1644
02:57:13,480 --> 02:57:13,480
it's just like the beef, I would say that it's a big part of caroline [overlapping].

1645
02:57:17,770 --> 02:57:21,060
>> let me ask you a question, would you pay to take it? >> what was that?

1646
02:57:22,615 --> 02:57:26,230
>> would you pay to take it? >> would I pay to take it? If the cost benefits versus commercial fertilizer. Yes, I would.

1647
02:57:34,020 --> 02:57:35,245
>> all right. >> I mean, it's no different than in bringing sludge from across

1648
02:57:38,620 --> 02:57:38,620
the bridge and putting it in our landfills or acres at caroline county.

1649
02:57:43,210 --> 02:57:45,550
those trucks come in here every day and you guys sit here talking about trucks, these narrow roads.

1650
02:57:47,800 --> 02:57:51,115
we've got trucks that are bringing that stuff from across the bridge. We got trucks that are running sand out of all these places here [overlapping].

1651
02:57:56,170 --> 02:57:59,650
>> I don't disagree with you on that one. >> it's not only [inaudible]. >> I don't disagree with you there,

1652
02:58:00,700 --> 02:58:03,250
but I mean, you've got a valid point. >> do we want to reassess and go into closed session

1653
02:58:06,910 --> 02:58:10,885
here to receive legal counsel or do we just want to vote on this moratorium? >> I need some legal counsel.

1654
02:58:14,730 --> 02:58:14,730
>> well, we'll step out I think the best thing to do instead of evicting everyone here.

1655
02:58:20,620 --> 02:58:23,980
>> I think you do a recess and your closing statement. >> let's do a recess real quick so we can write a closing statement.

1656
02:58:28,240 --> 02:58:30,505
>> I texted it to you. >> you did? [background]

1657
02:58:38,740 --> 02:58:40,825
>> I didn't receive any texts. >> they're on your personal phone.

1658
02:58:52,260 --> 02:58:54,940
>> the commissioners are going to vote to enter into closed session under general provisions

1659
02:58:56,980 --> 02:58:56,980
3-305b7 to consult with legal counsel. Here in motion.

1660
02:59:03,625 --> 02:59:06,685
>> so moved. >> second. >> all in favor say aye. >> aye. [overlapping]

1661
04:41:56,250 --> 04:41:59,960
>> I'm going to step out for a minute. >> all in favor say aye. >> aye. [overlapping]

1662
04:42:01,820 --> 04:42:03,830
>> good luck with recording that [inaudible] jane. [laughter]

1663
04:42:06,050 --> 04:42:06,830
>> do you record [inaudible] too? >> yes. Do you ever report out?

1664
04:42:14,945 --> 04:42:16,468
>> I do [inaudible] [laughter]

1665
04:42:27,650 --> 04:42:27,650
>> the commissioners just met to discuss

1666
04:42:31,760 --> 04:42:31,760
details regarding the passing of a caroline county daf moratorium.

1667
04:42:54,040 --> 04:42:56,525
we'll just read it when it comes in, when he gets it in we'll go over it.

1668
04:42:58,280 --> 04:42:58,280
but we discussed the moratorium present where commissioners porter, bartz,

1669
04:43:03,575 --> 04:43:06,895
breeding, katheleen freeman, daniel fox, stewart barroll, mary berneski,

1670
04:43:08,605 --> 04:43:08,605
kim raeder, and jennifer reibly.

1671
04:43:18,000 --> 04:43:20,890
while we're waiting on that new language that come in, we're going to move on and go ahead and take care of our consent agenda.

1672
04:43:23,845 --> 04:43:27,750
does anyone have any questions regarding anything on the consent agenda? >> I make a motion we approve the consent agenda.

1673
04:43:32,435 --> 04:43:35,645
>> second. >> motion and a second. All in favor say aye. >> aye.

1674
04:43:36,530 --> 04:43:40,325
>> aye. >> motion passes unanimously. County administrator's report.

1675
04:43:43,870 --> 04:43:43,870
>> just a few very brief things you may have seen and I know you all saw on facebook,

1676
04:43:50,960 --> 04:43:53,780
there are some complaints made about day spring apartments which are operated under contract by the county.

1677
04:43:58,970 --> 04:43:58,970
I just want to report that when the complaints were made on facebook,

1678
04:44:03,560 --> 04:44:06,410
the issue that they were [noise] was already being addressed and we've circled back and that's been taken care of,

1679
04:44:09,050 --> 04:44:09,050
so just be aware in case you did see those complaints, it's resolved.

1680
04:44:14,920 --> 04:44:14,920
danny and I received an email from debbie bennett,

1681
04:44:19,745 --> 04:44:19,745
that the central library is now open on the first floor as of this week.

1682
04:44:24,170 --> 04:44:24,170
second floor and third floors are still operating as storage and undergoing some work,

1683
04:44:31,445 --> 04:44:34,100
but the first floor is open and accessible to the public as of this week for debt and library.

1684
04:44:37,880 --> 04:44:39,755
as you know, I just want to remind you, we had really now three roads that are at least in emergency or quasi-emergency state.

1685
04:44:46,400 --> 04:44:49,025
gilpin point road and [inaudible] road. We're dealing with both of those roads and should be issuing

1686
04:44:53,060 --> 04:44:56,870
a contract shortly to a contractor to start doing the repairs, we're waiting for some final,

1687
04:44:58,520 --> 04:45:02,030
legal language on the contracts. Then, as of yesterday, with the flooding river road is now missing,

1688
04:45:05,135 --> 04:45:05,135
probably approximately a 10 foot by 10 foot piece of asphalt,

1689
04:45:10,070 --> 04:45:11,825
the top layer of asphalt. Dpw will be taking a look at river road also.

1690
04:45:15,500 --> 04:45:18,770
then the last thing I had is just as fyi, I met with staff from both senator carden and sander van holland's office yesterday.

1691
04:45:23,525 --> 04:45:26,600
they are offering, [noise] as they always do, their assistance on any federal level projects

1692
04:45:29,240 --> 04:45:32,720
or anything we might need help with from them. It was more of a meet and greet. We talked about north county regional waste water system and water treatment system,

1693
04:45:39,815 --> 04:45:39,815
and any other projects that we have that they can help us with. That's it.

1694
04:45:45,190 --> 04:45:45,190
>> thank you. County commissioner, urban discussion period.

1695
04:45:53,560 --> 04:45:53,560
>> [overlapping] I got the maco legislative schedule,

1696
04:45:58,910 --> 04:45:58,910
which is going to be tying me up every wednesday from when session starts.

1697
04:46:06,770 --> 04:46:06,770
[noise] fortunately, most of them will zoom.

1698
04:46:13,540 --> 04:46:17,300
>> you don't have anything? >> only thing I could say is, I thank everybody for coming out.

1699
04:46:18,950 --> 04:46:20,330
this is, as you can see, a major concern for its citizens and constituents.

1700
04:46:24,680 --> 04:46:26,885
I value everybody's opinion. At the end of the day, the decisions ain't easy.

1701
04:46:29,960 --> 04:46:29,960
but ultimately, [noise] we have to come up with something and try to satisfy everybody.

1702
04:46:36,155 --> 04:46:36,155
I just want to thank you all for your input and any comment that you guys are made,

1703
04:46:41,470 --> 04:46:43,665
it's been took into consideration. >> thank you.

1704
04:46:49,240 --> 04:46:49,240
>> this subject has really consumed most of the last week and doing research,

1705
04:46:55,820 --> 04:46:55,820
speaking to members of the public on both sides of the issue.

1706
04:47:02,650 --> 04:47:05,180
like commissioner bartz alluded to, it's not an easy decision

1707
04:47:12,310 --> 04:47:15,590
to make here. But we've done a lot of research, dug into this.

1708
04:47:19,625 --> 04:47:22,820
we've had some major road issues, as katheleen talked about, a couple of pipe failures.

1709
04:47:24,230 --> 04:47:26,345
our infrastructure is aging. We have a lot of capital improvements that we need to make to our existing roads.

1710
04:47:33,340 --> 04:47:33,340
look for that in the upcoming years and we'll try to catch up there.

1711
04:47:39,950 --> 04:47:39,950
[noise] I guess we can go back into recess for a few minutes

1712
04:47:46,940 --> 04:47:46,940
until my understanding is it's printing now and then we will address the moratorium.

1713
04:47:55,130 --> 04:47:57,815
>> for those of you who were here earlier, I would ask you if you

1714
04:48:04,010 --> 04:48:04,010
would support the [noise] lucas nagel [noise] foundation.

1715
04:48:14,650 --> 04:48:17,120
it's difficult for me to talk about, but he was a really good kid, and a tragedy.

1716
04:48:21,590 --> 04:48:21,590
it'll be one year this new year's day.

1717
04:48:29,830 --> 04:48:33,400
all right. Let's go into recess. [noise] >> okay. >> yes. >> yes.

1718
05:09:05,140 --> 05:09:08,105
>> [noise] if they forget [inaudible] says that. >> still the only changes are at number 5.

1719
05:09:10,745 --> 05:09:12,950
>> I added some language to the title. >> okay. Do you want to go over to changes?

1720
05:09:16,775 --> 05:09:19,220
>> sure. >> okay. [noise]. >> we'll go ahead. Let's go back into session.

1721
05:09:21,470 --> 05:09:24,810
calling the meeting back to order. In our closed session in an attempt to avoid

1722
05:09:29,230 --> 05:09:33,220
the distraction and expense associated with legal action, we directed staff to amend section 5 to allow

1723
05:09:37,640 --> 05:09:37,640
for storage and facilities that have been used prior to january 1st, 2023.

1724
05:09:42,920 --> 05:09:45,485
stewart, if you want to go over any other changes. >> yeah, the title. [noise] I

1725
05:09:50,680 --> 05:09:50,680
inserted [noise] the words,

1726
05:09:57,130 --> 05:09:57,130
"it's a temporary moratorium on certain use of land

1727
05:10:01,460 --> 05:10:05,360
or structures for storage [noise] of these things''. And in paragraph 1,

1728
05:10:08,690 --> 05:10:10,700
the moratorium being established, [noise] we changed the wording

1729
05:10:15,530 --> 05:10:15,530
[noise] to state that the moratorium has exceptions to it.

1730
05:10:24,075 --> 05:10:27,820
so paragraph 1 hasn't really changed except to add exceptions to this prohibition of set forth in [noise] paragraph 5 below.

1731
05:10:31,735 --> 05:10:31,735
paragraph five [noise] below is changed to

1732
05:10:41,840 --> 05:10:44,030
indicate that the moratorium does not apply to use of structures or land which have been used for

1733
05:10:46,340 --> 05:10:46,340
the storage of food processing residual and/or daf residuals prior to january 1 of 2023.

1734
05:10:52,475 --> 05:10:52,475
in other words, we're not addressing legality or not of such facilities.

1735
05:11:00,440 --> 05:11:00,440
we are stating that future uses of land or structures are subject to the moratorium.

1736
05:11:11,620 --> 05:11:11,620
this does not directly attack a pre-existing facility.

1737
05:11:16,910 --> 05:11:20,450
however, the commissioners, I don't know if you've already spoken to?

1738
05:11:22,205 --> 05:11:23,480
>> no. >> enforcement action that'll be taken against.

1739
05:11:28,390 --> 05:11:31,145
>> any non-permitted structures. >> that is in existence right now.

1740
05:11:36,340 --> 05:11:36,340
>> we have directed staff to prioritize enforcement

1741
05:11:41,015 --> 05:11:41,015
of our permitting process on non-permitted structures at this point.

1742
05:11:53,900 --> 05:11:56,600
>> [inaudible] [laughter]. >> I want to make it clear that I am pro [inaudible],

1743
05:12:01,070 --> 05:12:01,070
but this needs to be cleaned up.

1744
05:12:05,165 --> 05:12:08,315
you need to carry that message back that we are not going to have this go on in our county.

1745
05:12:12,440 --> 05:12:15,560
this does not mean that I'm not willing to vote to put a moratorium on the entire operation.

1746
05:12:20,450 --> 05:12:23,405
because frankly, I am, but I think we need to sit down at the table.

1747
05:12:27,020 --> 05:12:27,020
it needs to be addressed and we need to be a part of it.

1748
05:12:32,030 --> 05:12:34,970
and the citizens of this county need to be a part of it and they need to be heard by the producers,

1749
05:12:38,405 --> 05:12:42,395
by the haulers, and by the applicators. Mda, I think needs to be doing a better job.

1750
05:12:47,045 --> 05:12:47,045
but they don't have to do a better job if the applicators do a better job,

1751
05:12:51,200 --> 05:12:53,120
then we don't have as many complaints. So stick to the regulations and make sure that they're enforced.

1752
05:12:58,505 --> 05:13:01,310
but anyway, [noise] those were the amendments to the new moratorium. Do you want to add anything?

1753
05:13:04,520 --> 05:13:04,520
>> I agree with commissioner [inaudible] I'm ready to put a moratorium on it as well.

1754
05:13:08,795 --> 05:13:12,080
but in lieu of what we discussed, we are going to give a little window here.

1755
05:13:14,510 --> 05:13:16,460
so I'm with him. I'm ready to put the clamps on it so you guys

1756
05:13:19,730 --> 05:13:23,405
need to come to the table and figure out what's going on. >> respect the neighbors, respect this community.

1757
05:13:26,810 --> 05:13:30,250
>> this isn't the last of it. >> mr. Kroc.

1758
05:13:31,970 --> 05:13:33,710
>> I just have a question. >> yeah. >> if I understood what mr. [inaudible] said,

1759
05:13:36,905 --> 05:13:40,850
it only pertains to not past facilities, structures, or land; just future.

1760
05:13:42,905 --> 05:13:46,850
and I'm looking at january 1st, 2023. Shouldn't that be 24?

1761
05:13:48,845 --> 05:13:48,845
>> no. [inaudible] for 60 days.

1762
05:13:53,180 --> 05:13:55,640
maybe that should be today's date. >> that was what confused me because it just pertained to future.

1763
05:13:59,735 --> 05:14:01,850
I thought that should be 24 not 23. >> the purpose of that is because we do have the one bad actor.

1764
05:14:05,210 --> 05:14:07,150
[noise] >> okay.

1765
05:14:09,229 --> 05:14:10,060
>> [laughter] >> if you were receiving daf prior to january 1st of 2023 this year, you are fine.

1766
05:14:17,160 --> 05:14:20,475
>> what confused me was the statement that only pertained to future and so obviously that often gets back to [inaudible].

1767
05:14:24,320 --> 05:14:24,320
>> yeah. If a property owner farmer was receiving

1768
05:14:28,970 --> 05:14:28,970
the material prior to january 1st of this year or last year,

1769
05:14:34,670 --> 05:14:38,660
they are enabled to continue to receive that material. >> thank you.

1770
05:14:39,530 --> 05:14:42,710
>> well, let's put it this way. It's not subject to the moratorium. We're not saying anything is legal or illegal at this point.

1771
05:14:46,205 --> 05:14:46,205
we're simply saying future uses are not allowed during the period of this moratorium.

1772
05:14:53,120 --> 05:14:53,120
[noise] and in a totally unrelated enforcement action,

1773
05:14:57,470 --> 05:14:57,470
any of these facilities that might have been operated

1774
05:15:01,895 --> 05:15:01,895
in a non-permitted structure will be subject to a cease and desist order.

1775
05:15:10,870 --> 05:15:14,570
>> we are also establishing a public hearing on january 23rd at 06:00 p.m. That's listed in the moratorium.

1776
05:15:18,860 --> 05:15:22,370
[noise] and following that public hearing, I think we also would expect to be working

1777
05:15:26,390 --> 05:15:26,390
on more final ordinance language and we appreciate the offer of assistance.

1778
05:15:32,120 --> 05:15:32,120
we'll definitely include those interested people,

1779
05:15:36,830 --> 05:15:36,830
citizens, and companies involved in that process to develop appropriate regulations.

1780
05:15:42,035 --> 05:15:42,815
>> thank you. >> I think I wanted to just add that as to the current bad actor,

1781
05:15:53,030 --> 05:15:53,030
as we call it, I think we will all reach out

1782
05:15:59,450 --> 05:15:59,450
to the farm and environmental for help with this enforcement action.

1783
05:16:08,855 --> 05:16:08,855
and so this is trying to cut the baby in half.

1784
05:16:17,240 --> 05:16:18,650
it took a while, but to me, I think this is the fairest way to go.

1785
05:16:22,160 --> 05:16:25,910
people who are doing what you're supposed to be doing will not be harmed. And we're going to go around,

1786
05:16:28,220 --> 05:16:31,910
make sure that we make every effort to make sure that people's properties and lives aren't adversely affected.

1787
05:16:37,660 --> 05:16:37,660
and we will look for help from everybody.

1788
05:16:43,300 --> 05:16:43,300
>> good. Any further discussion here? I hear a motion.

1789
05:16:49,060 --> 05:16:52,700
>> go ahead. >> motion to adjourn. >> we got to vote. >> [laughter] >> I'm sorry. I know I'm hungry too.

1790
05:16:59,800 --> 05:16:59,800
>> I'm sorry. Motion to adopt resolution 2023-025.

1791
05:17:06,215 --> 05:17:09,770
>> second. >> as amended or [overlapping]? >> as amended.

1792
05:17:10,745 --> 05:17:13,535
>> as amended. >> yes >> second. >> motion and second.

1793
05:17:14,915 --> 05:17:17,165
all in favor say aye. >> aye. >> all opposed. The ayes always have it.

1794
05:17:19,760 --> 05:17:23,000
>> thank you. >> thank you, everybody. >> now I'm moving motion. >> motion to adjourn. >> [laughter] >> second.

1795
05:17:23,900 --> 05:17:26,420
>> motion and second. All in favor say aye. >> aye.