>> good morning, everyone and welcome to the december 19,
2023 caroline county commissioners meeting. Sorry, my microphone is not on.
this morning we have our invocation by pastor dan krupala of trinity
and henderson united methodist church and that'll be followed by the pledge of allegiance.
so for everyone to rise. Good morning pastor. >> good morning. Would you pray with me?
father god, we thank you for this beautiful day, lord. We thank you for the opportunity to do your good works in our county.
we ask that you bless this meeting, lord. We ask that you bless the proceedings and bless the commissioners and their staff.
lord, we want to lift up our first responders over this holiday season, grant them safety, grant them wisdom,
and grant them protection. We also want to lift up all the agencies of
our county that make life so great here and caroline county. In your son's, holy name, we pray, amen.
>> amen. >>
>>thank you pastor. >>thank you.
>> we will have a public comment period later in the meeting during
the discussion about the proposed resolution on dissolved air flotation.
if you would like to comment about that, please hold that comment until later in the meeting.
at this time I will open and allow general public comment.
please direct all comments to me, the chair, do not address county staff or other members of the audience.
for the interests of time, please keep your comments limited to three minutes. Time may be extended if questioned by one of the commissioners or county staff.
if your testimony is consistent with previous comments, please just state that you agree with those comments and refrain from restating.
when you comment, please come forward, state your name and address.
is there anyone who would like to comment at this time?
>> sir. >> sure. It is about the chicken place.
>> later. We'll discuss that later. >> that's fine. >>just general comment at this point.
thank you. None being seen,
we will move on to our first agenda item, which is the declaration.
thank you. Closed session readout from last commissioner meeting.
the commissioners met in closed session during their december 12, 2023 county commissioner meeting under authority 2014 maryland code,
state government 3-305b, section 7, to consult with counsel to obtain legal advice.
no actions were taken and staff was asked to write a formal daf moratorium to be added to the commissioners december 19, 2023 agenda.
attendees were the commissioners; commissioner breeding, commissioner bartz,
and commissioner porter, katheleen freeman, daniel fox, crystal dadds, jennifer reibly,
stewart barroll, and mary berneski. Now on to our first agenda item which is
a declaration of emergency for road repair permits.
it's my understanding that as president of the commission,
I have the ability to declare an emergency, but I would like to have a formal vote on declaring the emergency.
I know we already voted to declare an emergency for the repair of gilpin point road
but last weekend it was brought to our attention that we had another issue of road pipe failure.
we would like to extend that emergency declaration to
the issue road project and the gilpin point project for emergency repairs.
do I hear a motion to declare emergency for those two roads?
all in favor say aye. >> aye. >> all opposed. Declaration. Next agenda item is mr. Milton nagel,
a caroline county resident with information and services for a project he has. Morning milton.
>> good morning. >> good morning, commissioners.
>> staff. Thank you for the opportunity to come before you this morning.
I did have some packets for you afterwards but my mother, who was career kindergarten teacher,
taught me a long time ago, don't hand out things to people if you
don't want them to read them and not pay attention to what you have to say. [laughter] you'll get my packet at the end.
it's good to see so many people out here today that hear what I'm about to say.
as you gentlemen know and ladies, lucas nagel, my youngest son will forever be 27.
an army veteran deployed twice, serving 10 years as a military police soldier,
six-year veteran or the caroline county sheriff's department, lost his battle to his demons on december 31st this past year.
statistically, at least 22 veterans a day pass for the same reason.
in addition, more locally, 18-24% of dispatcher suffer from ptsd.
35% of police officers suffer from ptsd.
that's more than one in three. And 37% of active fire and ems have contemplated suicide.
I didn't make those numbers up, I pull those numbers off of well-researched information.
we must do more as a society to recognize this growing issue and provide resources and
tools to our first responders so they have a better chance to lead a long and healthy life.
departments invest so much time, effort, and money into recruitment and training yet we aren't
taking care of their largest organ in the body, and that's their brain. Data supports the fact that more and more are
leaving the career because of brain health issues. My mission and my family's mission is to do everything that
we can to ensure that no other family within our community has to live through what we have
and will continue to live through for the rest of our lives. So we established the lucas nagel memorial fund not too long
after he passed and we're doing some fundraising, we're raising money.
but in the interim, I came across thanks to rick barton,
whose a very key figure in the local community, to be the president of the board of education and is employed through
a organization called icisf international critical incident stress foundation.
through another gentleman in the community whose retired law enforcement officer and a now a 911 dispatcher down in ocean city,
who also has fought demons as a result of ongoing stress as associated with this profession.
he now does rescue yoga. But between the two of them, we found this documentary that was created out of maryland.
it's called ptsd 911 and they have developed a digital toolkit for first responder agencies.
in the documentary, we had a viewing of it up at chesapeake college
several weeks ago and it's very engaging, it follows the ongoing struggles of three first responders;
one law enforcement official, a 911 dispatcher, and a paid firefighter.
it isn't filled with glory details, but rather includes real-life testimonials,
including a lot of medical professional analysis on the impact of the brain from ongoing traumatic events.
what I propose is the foundation through an anonymous supporter,
wants to purchase the ptsd 911 digital toolkit for
caroline county to be shown to all the first responders in the community, paid and volunteer.
what I would like to see the commissioners support is to schedule appropriate date and time coordination
with the two high schools to show the film in the auditoriums for the first responders and their families, if they want to come.
then ongoing mission of this foundation is to work with and support
the first responder agencies to develop and implement no cost and low-cost solutions aimed at providing support to their members.
then in conjunction with icisf, which has graciously volunteered to donate their time to help initially train teams,
the foundation would continue to support their peer teams that help to debrief first responders following traumatic events.
I know I've talked to mr. Porter as a lifetime fireman himself, he's been exposed.
you go out on an ambulance call or a traffic incident call
your heart's sinks because you just hope and pray that it's not somebody that you know.
but we all know that it's happened where it has been somebody that you know and that
has to have an impact on you and the statistics don't lie.
that's my request before you today, is that if we do go ahead and purchase this,
that you'll support it to the extent that you can to encourage all of our first responder agencies to come out to the event
and help our members of this community
get the help that they need so that they can lead long and productive lives.
>> absolutely. You have my support and anything we can do to help.
I admire your strength in this difficult time I don't know that I
could handle it as strongly as you have.
your service is greatly appreciated and bringing attention to
this and we're behind you, at least I am.
>> thank you. >> you've handled it better than me.
we're coming up on this terrible anniversary and as you told me,
this is a year of first and I've been saying this as a volunteer fireman.
I've been seeing this more and more often and I'll keep saying it. People sometimes have to hear but I don't
care because people need to understand it takes its toll.
>> nobody in their right mind does what people do every day.
>> right. >> nobody wakes up in the morning and says,
today I'm going to take my life. Something happens, something snaps,
in this documentary talks about that, by competent medical professionals talks about
the ongoing trauma to the brain and how that section of the brain can't shut off and it overrides rational thinking and first responders are taught what,
especially law enforcement to react. >> it's okay to say you're not okay and it's not a sign of weakness
and it is not something to be hidden
or afraid of and I can tell you that being the old man,
I've talked to a lot of young firefighters and told them
if you have a problem if you need to talk to somebody, go do it.
>> we have a lot of them in this community that are paid firefighters and then
volunteer here so you know what they're saying? They're seeing a lot of it.
>> but it is. You're absolutely correct. The wonderful thing about living here and being born here,
and growing up here, your whole life, like you have and I have,
the bad thing is you know everybody so when there is a tragedy,
when there is something that occurs, it's not like all that just happened to somebody.
it affects the whole community and the whole county so absolutely.
milton, anything that I can do.
>> well, I work with the two high schools to select some dates and obviously,
we're donning sheriff's department and we'll keep
you posted and hope you can support it through your platforms.
>> we can certainly publicize it from here through our website and whatever we can do to get the word out.
>> to add some context to the audience who may not be aware lucas was a county lifelong resident,
army veteran, baseball codes, sheriff's deputy, republican central committee member.
>> yeah. >> when he was a young man. >> this is a great way to honor your son and bring attention to
the pandemic that everybody is facing here. I got to know your son due to committee for
four years and he was always pleasure to be around, and he always had something positive to say
and garrett would joke around and carry on and I think about that often he was
such a good young man so anything you need milton, we are here for you.
>> thank you. Now I'll give you your [laughter].
>> for more information, I would like you to have.
>> thank you. >> pleasure talking [inaudible].
>> thank you, sir. >> thank you for your time.
>> yes sir. Thank you.
>> next up we have debbie bowden, director of economic development,
rob sell mccrone engineering, and scott getchell old manager town of denton with a presentation of
draft preliminary engineering reports for the west denton stormwater project.
you got him brian, I think they might be out in the hallway.
>> good morning. >> morning. >> morning, debbie. [noise]
>> I can stand. [laughter] >> do we have another chair out there brian?
scott there you go. >> always applied to me. [laughter]
>> good morning. >> good morning. Debbie bowden director of economic development and tourism and I
am here today to present rob sell actually from
mccrone engineering to talk about the study that's completed
that looked at bringing water and sewer across the bridge,
across the top tank to the area that is known as west denton. Just a little bit of background so this was a project that
was funded through the rural maryland economic development fund. It started off as this idea of can water and sewer go across the river?
at that time, I met with mayor abby mcninch and she brought who was going to
soon be a new employee with her to have a conversation and that was scott getchell who is also here with me.
the week before he started officially as the town of denton manager
that we sat down and talked and outlined how best to approach this,
both from a county's interests in having the project done and from the town's interest,
and so based on scott's experience and his professional ability,
we decided to do a preliminary engineering report and to divide it into two reports,
one for water, one for sewer, and to look at two different areas in what we generally call west denton.
area 1 is the village of west denton that is bordered by the river and matthews town, new bridge road.
the second area is more industrial area that is bordered by 404,
meeting house road, and matthews town road.
we engaged mccrone to do
these preliminary reports and I'll ask rob if you will give just an overview of what that means.
this isn't anything that's in-depth. This is really just that preliminary report.
they had some scheduling issues because at the same time,
the town denton was undergoing some improvements to their water system but they worked diligently.
they worked hard and they were able to get it done. Wanted to bring it to you today to the county commissioners on this day before we have
an opportunity to take it to the town of denton because this is my last meeting and so as a county-funded project,
I want it to be able to share it with you and then we'll work with the next director and with scott
and with rob on taking it to the town and whatever those next steps would be and I believe scott,
that'll be sometime in january, maybe early. >> it can be. >> it can be, in january or february.
with that, I'll turn over to rob sell and have him share what the reports say.
>> good morning everybody. >> good morning. >> my name is rob sell I am with mccrone engineering in annapolis,
we were hired by the county to look at the water and sewer possibilities for west denton.
the format for the reports is on the usda format.
usda is not involved at this time, but it wanted to do the report that way so in
case you're looking for funding that would be an easy transition for them.
what we did, we broke it into both water and sewer and like you said,
there is two different areas of west denton. For the sewer, we analyzed the existing system in denton and
what we had to do first is we had to generate flows for the area in west denton and see if there's capacity.
since this is a planning exercise. You're very conservative when you do these things,
you want to be played for I guess a total of redevelopment as a possibility.
we looked at it both ways of what's there today and what could be there in the future.
like in the area to the industrial that has very high yield,
it could be a very high yield if it's redeveloped.
you'd have to build a pump station over in that area to get it across the river.
we would go underneath the river, drill underneath the river and into
the existing collection system in the town of denton and they're into a second street pump station.
second street pump station would be the most logical place to take it which from there,
it would work its way to the treatment plant. What we found is that if for the entire west denton area,
the build out, the flow was way over capacity for everything in the town.
that's what prompted us to break it down into the two different areas.
the more residential area 1, both for the current flows and for the future flows,
could flow to the town without
any major upgrades to the town's wastewater collection system.
any additional flow that gets to the treatment plant just
furthers capacity problems because there's certain things that the town's already looking at as far as upgrades.
these aren't necessarily tip them over the edge, but they add to the concerns and the capacity issues.
but for the other one, if you put area 2 in there, we looked at different ways.
we looked at connecting to the pump station, second street pump station,
and ten we looked at also just taken a force main all the way to the plant. In either one of those cases,
it would be over capacity of the plant. The going all the way to the treatment plan
just made it so you didn't have to do upgrades all through the town. Which may be easier on the town,
and a little less expensive, but a lot less disruptive.
the conclusion for that, for the sewer was that you could sort of area 1,
it's pretty much with what was there in the channel. >>area 1 as where?
>> area 1 is in the villages. That's the first one is when you get over the bridge, the first [inaudible].
then we did cost estimates for everything in a 20-year cost analysis.
for the water, we did basically the same thing. We went out here,
and then he said there was coordinating with the town because some of the areas that we wanted to look at for creating a hydraulic model,
the town, were under construction. For doing a hydraulic model of the town,
we were out here for a day. A couple of people were out here, and running around town testing fire hydrants.
from testing fire hydrants, we created a model, a hydraulic model of the town so that we could determine that a,
if water could get to area 1 and area 2 in west denton and b,
if you did serve those areas, what do you do to the rest of the town? You can't just hook these up and not look that have some effect on the town.
the criteria you look at, make sure that there's adequate pressure under the peak flows,
the lunchtime, and dinnertime, and getting ready for work time. Then, you also look at what happens in the system if there's a fire
and that you have to have enough water to fight a fire,
but you have to have enough pressure everywhere in the system that the rest of the town can maintain normal uses.
then you also have to look at things like the number of wells,
they've three wells and we look at the capacity of the wells and make sure we don't take that over the capacity because that's all permitted.
then also, they have those three storage tanks in town and you want to
have enough storage for a couple of hours of fire flow and a day's worth of average flow for the town.
we checked that to make sure that we weren't violating any of that.
when we did that, we came up with, first looking at the whole town,
there was since this is a pressure as you extend the pipe to a dead end,
which this would be going across the river under the bridge or tied to the bottom the bridge,
which is what our recommendation was, was the pressure would decrease continually until you get to the end of the area 2.
at that point, there wasn't enough pressure to serve that area and then certainly,
there wasn't enough fire flow to serve that area. What we would recommend,
if the area was 1 and 2, you have to put another tank at that end of the project and in another well,
because there's already issues in the town with chlorine residual because of some
of the longer runs of pipe and by taking the pipe another mile,
a couple of miles of chlorine residual, the pipes would be nothing after you get there.
you'd have to put a tank and a well,
and chlorination out there to serve area 2. But if you were just looking at area 1,
you could do it with what you have now. It wouldn't violate the amount of storage needed,
you want to maintain 35 psi,
that's relatively low, but that's what the industry standard is for a system during peak times.
then during fire flow, I think we could keep 1,700 gallons a minute, which is pretty good.
a minimum is usually around 1,000 gallons a minute for fire flow.
then for that, you want to maintain 20 psi in the system and we could do that too.
just going over to area 1, there would be minimal anything that we'd have to do to the existing town.
for that one, we have cost estimates in here to show what the cost would be
to tie to the bottom of the bridge and run all the pipe out there to the different areas.
for that one, our recommendation was to serve area 1 also.
>> yes. Thank you. From a cost perspective, and again, this would be something that the town and the county,
if both entities are interested in pursuing,
would take the results of the study and look at the cost,
look at the amount of infrastructure that would have to be added,
or it could be used as standing and move forward from there. But the goal of this report was to get to
this point where the county and the town would start having conversations.
because there had been advice from long ago
that couldn't take any of this infrastructure over around or under the river.
but now, based on this report, [inaudible] is saying that that can be done.
steps can start to be moving forward to envision whatever needs to be done for the west denton,
whether it's area 1, area 2, everything that was covered in the study.
>> okay. >> scott, is the second street pump station,
is that the one near siesta? >> yes. >> it would have to go all the way.
that's pretty lengthy. >> it'll get there by gravity. [overlapping]
>> at a certain point, okay. Roughly, cost-benefit analysis,
you didn't really look at that too much. But how many edus are in the village?
does it say that in the report?
it doesn't make sense to go through the expense of born the river and putting
all that infrastructure in for a limited number of edus in the village only.
>> from a cost perspective, you're right. But if nde or usda got behind it,
it may make sense because of the environmental impact.
although there are septic tanks over there.
>> I think there are a few holding tanks as well.
>> yes. If you look at the environmental impact, how do you put a dollar on that?
that's my thought. I know that the end result costs were high per edu, and I don't know.
>> it's just like 32. >> thirty two edus. >> yeah. I think that's projected.
>> do you have a figure of how many edus that crossing the river with the utilities could support?
>> no, not necessarily. We looked at both whether it could do one or the other.
we don't really have a number in between. It's easy to do. We can certainly do that for the future.
>> to figure out how many edus they're existing. It's limited by the pump station.
[overlapping] >> your gallons was 10 liters per day.
that's not a scary number for the town as far as operations are concerned.
there's the political side of this that I can't speak to, but for operations that's a doable number.
for the village. The rest of them well. >> the expansion of the village,
it doesn't leave a lot of room. That's what my curiosity is. How much room is there for expansion or further development around the village?
>> there was a little bit of a space that's a graveyard. >> yes. That's not going anywhere. There's not a whole lot.
I think they said that there was 16 existing homes and there's room for another 16.
>> okay. Are you counting the warehouses as well? >> no. I think that's in the second area.
>> mr. Porter is talking about the warehouses down on the waterfront? That would include those.
>> yes. >> but it would not include [inaudible],
all the industrial, commercial out on 328.
>> not without great expense. That's correct. >> yes. >> right. >> that's, right now they're not using much water potentially.
it's hard there's no meters, there's no public water, so we don't know exactly what anybody's using out there.
we use mde. There's flow factors that you use
based on acres or based on use or based on number of seats in a restaurant.
in town those are easy because they got the meter readings.
but outside there you have to make estimates, you have to project. Then we project for the planning purpose if it's redeveloped into papers.
>> incorporated in the village you have included the yacht club,
the boat club, all that. Flows are measured. >> yes. >> okay.
>> this has been about a 25-year discussion.
it predates even me being on the board here. I know that several years ago there was actually a lawsuit between the town and county.
to be honest, I can't remember which one didn't want this, but I know that there was a reason that some of that property was annexed into town.
the proposal at that time was the development of a very large
what they called at that time, over 55 development.
I think the concern was that the proposed development
would have doubled the size of the town in one swoop.
there was some concern about the pressure that
that was going to put on all facilities, schools, ems, fire.
I can't remember who won that suit, to be honest with you, but it wouldn't be hard to go back and look.
the proposal here would be limited as far as
development because you say there's capacity for
the 16 houses and an additional 32. Is that what you said?
>> yes. It's limited by what the current zoning is. If somebody came in and was able to rezone it,
then that would have to be part of the process looking at the facilities again.
but yes, right now, it's limited by what would be allowed by this area.
>> typically, state and federal assistance would restrict the ability
to expand and have new connection other than pre-existing.
>> right. >> some of your critical areas and so on. >> [overlapping] absolutely. All of those constraints, yeah.
>> what would be the next step if we wanted to move forward to pursue this?
what will be the next step to do this, to start this process if I wanted to?
>> that's a good question. The only reason I'm involved is because of the technical side of this.
I think we've worked that out with the county's help. We know it's feasible. It can be done.
the next step in my opinion would be to have discussions with town council if
everybody wants to move forward because it's a political decision.
we figured out that from an engineering perspective, it can be done and even how it can be done.
I'm happy to facilitate that, to keep helping you do that.
>> leslie, sorry to put you on the spot, but would this be in conflict with the north county sewer?
would they be competing with each other? They would fund one or the other or what's your thoughts on that?
>> potentially, but that really is a matter of timing because this will be eligible because failing septics for various duration fund money,
and those are done annually. We are in the pipeline perpetually for up north.
this would be apart from that and depending on approval status of it. I don't think that it would.
>> it's not a either or. They could both be. >> it's not a huge number of homes to connect.
usda and nde funding, which it would be eligible for, again,
it's relatively small compared to [noise] [inaudible] the additional edu potential,
because it's in a priority funding area, it is eligible to have
a low appropriation of up to 20% of the existing edu.
if there's 30 then in that, they would allow you to build it and size it for
an additional 20% of the existing number of edus. There's a little bit of rope available.
that point about having to size the system based on mde guidance,
which I think is 250 gallons a day for edu, is a generous, conservative number.
once you start using actual clothes, depending on the number of people in the house,
that number tends to be lower, so there's a little more room for connections.
>> once you get proof of actual flow. >>right. There isn't a hard cut-off for only those [inaudible] [noise]
>> the cost of doing this,
just adding up the existing homes and staff up there in the edus.
is it less than it would be to just to go ahead and build a new wastewater treatment plant over on that side?
that way you can expand. >> I didn't look at that, but yes,
I would say it's sense [overlapping] >> this would be like a start that, hey,
we're fixing the existing wells and the sewers on that end,
getting that all straight and then another 25 years then we can.
>> [overlapping] what I'm hearing, with a little bit of room for expansion redevelopment.
but this is not a permanent fix or permanent expansion to the other side of the river.
>> I think it is for the village. >> yes. >> yes, to the village. >> because I know there's concerns about
the high school too and this doesn't address that. >> right. >> got you. >> having been through this one time with the jonestown water project.
one of the problems is going to be that when that system gets there,
those people will be required to hook in.
there will be costs, there will be ongoing costs.
it's going to be a situation where people were going to say I've got good system here, why should I have to spend?
that's what we're going to hear because I've heard that before. But that's a political discussion that we're going to have.
but I think the cost-benefit analysis on this thing, I mean, we're talking about 32 additional units.
what's your ballpark number? >> what the costs would be?
one of the things that we've done and we're working on a project in frederick,
but that's always the concern, what you said. You bring it there and then you tell people to have to hook
up and this is the first time [overlapping]. >> you will have people who want to. >> you do. >> but you're always going to have some people who don't.
>> we do have somebody who just spent $20 on a new septic system and that's happened every time. What frederick county did was they got mde funding,
the big restoration fund to actually hook everybody up. They got I think it was $20,000 in the home to hook everybody up.
now, there's still going to have monthly bills and quarterly bills, but at least that was the answer for that question in frederick county.
they had additional funding, but then they got the big restoration funding to actually hook up the sewer.
>> the big restoration only applies to the sewer fyi? >> correct. That's correct.
>> not water? >> correct. 1.7 million was the cost.
>> what is the normal local share of that?
>> depends on the funding the usda it could be loan and there could be portions that could be grant.
I'm not sure what the funding is. I know for the treatment plant that's different.
>> they have systems. I don't want to say algorithms,
but they had a system that they plug in a lot of information. That's how they underwrite.
they come up with percentage loan or percentage grant.
the worse off you are the better deal you get. That's not the case for mde they do it differently.
>> what kind of system was that budget based on? Was that a low-pressure dose grinder for each unit
or is that gravity to the central pump? >> it's gravity to central pump.
>> your number was what I'm sorry? >> 1.7 million. >> 1.7.
>> it's not bad as that's just sewer. >> that's just sewer. >> it's not as bad as I thought.
>> do the whole thing.
the water was 2.8 million.
>> water was more.
well, I think personally my opinion is we should convey this over to the town and get their feedback.
is the council willing to entertain this? >> that's about 100,000.
>> hook up? >> yes. >> it's expensive septic.
>> it's expensive. [laughter] >> in jonestown, my suggestion was putting new well in for everybody.
but they wouldn't accept it.
I think we got to talk. >> can I share the kprs with the council?
>> absolutely. >> I mean, that's where the conversation starts. Are they willing to entertain this because ultimately they would have
to accept annexation and extending utilities?
>> that's where I need to start. It's to share reports and then go from there.
>> get their feedback if they're willing. >> I think they are but I don't want to speak out of turn.
>> no. I think we are, I am. You? Little different situation here than jonestown at waterfront.
>> willing to talk. Then we got to decide who pays what share.
that'd be fun to do. But we can talk. >> good. Well,
thank you for coming over. Thank you, scott, debbie. Nice to meet you, rob. That was good.
>> for a few more minutes. >> next up we have robbie gill,
ceo of ymca of the chesapeake,
for a discussion of a potential new ymca facility. >> good morning, commissioners.
>> good morning, robbie. How are you, sir? >> good. I appreciate you guys giving me a few minutes.
I just wanted to provide an update on the ymca and the work that we're doing.
the y is not for profit 501c3. We have been on the eastern shore since 1857 so we've been around for a while.
we serve 50,000 folks up and down the eastern shore as far north as elkton,
and as far south as chincoteague in 11 different facilities.
the ymca here in caroline county, that's in the strip center was opened in the fall of 2011.
we had about 1,000 residents that were regularly traveling to eastern and
wanted to try to establish a presence within the community and we're able to do that.
today we serve about 3,500 folks in the county. The y here provides the mentoring program for the community, middle-school programming,
chronic disease programs for folks with parkinson's, battling cancer, balance and stability classes.
there were three boys that passed away in the marshyhope river from the haitian community in federalsburg in 2012.
we began doing water safety programming with federalsburg elementary busing kids to eastern and still work at that to this day.
as you guys know, there is no aquatics facility in this community and so that's a gap for sure.
we, over the years have been working towards a strategy to build a ymca in this community,
be able to provide those amenities, and have had moments where we thought we had some traction back in
the day when joe sheehan was the ceo of choptank community health.
we thought maybe we would be co-located there at their site, but that didn't work out.
had some conversations with the girl scouts at camp todd. Then the double hills site 2018 had conversations with the commissioners and actually had
an agreement in place and begin navigating annexation of water and sewer to that site,
as well as some other challenges. Then the pandemic hit.
prior to the pandemic in june of 2019, we opened a ymca in st. Michael's,
maryland, and there was a foundation that was supportive of that project. They asked us at that time what our next projects
were that we wanted to tackle and we said caroline county and queen anne's county. They gave us in july of 2019 $2.5
million gift for caroline county and a $2.5 gift for queen anne's county.
we spent most of the pandemic while we were doing meal delivery in this community in a variety of other programs.
we were also working on fundraising efforts. The county has always stated that if we could build a ymca in caroline county,
we would have a senior center within that facility. We have that in st. Michael's and it's a great model and then
we just opened a y queen anne's has the same model as well.
it was interesting in that while we were working on the project in this community,
we were battling some challenges with the site as well as, there's an $800,000 grant you can apply for through
the department of aging to help with the senior center project. We requested, through the county administrator to support to do that
as well as a little bit of funding and that fell to the wayside.
in queen anne's county, we did the same thing and were able to secure that.
three years later we opened that y in queen anne's county, october 10th.
we're still at ground zero here. We actually gave that two-and-a-half million dollars
back to the foundation to say, hey, look, there will come a time when we need this money,
but if you have something else to use it for now please do. I think, they're very supportive of the work,
the y does in this particular community and so we're still a dozen years in,
we're still at a space where we haven't quite figured it out, but it's a priority for our organization to build a ymca in this community.
that would be a full facility that kids and families and adults can benefit from.
then the amenities this community is missing, that we would have them, to where every kid can learn to swim,
and you have a variety of programs for kids and adults. With the y that we just opened in queen anne's county has a 70,000 square foot facility.
there's about 300 kids that walk across the street from the high school every day to that facility.
we need something like that in this community and that gift along with
support locally and know how the divine intervention led to the ymca raising $22 1/2 million for that project to be debt-free.
as you probably know, the ymca provides financial assistance, so there is never any financial limitation to participate.
no one is ever turned away and that's one of the things that we pride ourselves on.
it is a place where the collective community comes together. Commissioner porter and I had a chance to catch up and talk.
he was a commissioner at the time when we were trying to navigate the site. I think the bigger fight at the time was over parking here right by the courthouse.
I'm not sure if that's been resolved or not. >> I'm still working on it. Don't know how long we're doing that.
>> you got this, you can do it. We're still as committed as ever,
and I'm blessed to serve this community. I think, I would just ask that as
you navigate all the things that you're working through, if you see an opportunity where there may be the right spot,
proximity to a school can always be a huge help because it gives a place for kids to be.
we've looked at the southern states site with the town in the past, new challenges there, the road.
for kids and people on bikes that are trying to access it, that could be a little treacherous.
you're trying to have proximity for communities that may have limited access and capacity.
being right in the middle of town can always be helpful, but would love to in the future,
continue to work with the commissioners to figure that out. That's a goal.
rick barton serves on our corporate board, as well as derek simmons.
david nagle is on our finance committee, and passport member, keith mcmahon.
this is a wonderful community and we would love to do more, we just haven't quite figured out where and how to do that just yet.
>> I thought we're in very early discussions about potentially a new middle school.
don't everybody run with that? It is early conversations.
if that is the next major project that the school board would like to pursue.
that may free up the lockerman middle school area for a partial fit there down the road.
>> I appreciate the opportunity, and again,
we're grateful to be able to serve and anything we can do to help you guys make a bigger difference we're here to do it.
>> how many acres is the queen anne one on? >> it's on 16 acres.
that's a unique site for us. The y that's located in st. Michael's is actually
on school property at st. Michael's high school and middle school, and it's a 20,000 square foot site,
so it's a much smaller walk serving a much smaller community.
typically you need 8-10 acres to make
that work though we have a y in chestertown that's on seven, the y in eastern's on seven.
it really just depends, if you are co-locating a y with a middle school,
it's a really good example is where you're sharing field space.
you build the middle school is here, the y is here, the gymnasium is in the middle, or the pool is in the middle.
that shared space is used throughout the school day for programming for the school,
and then it's used by the y in the afternoon. There are a lot of different ways to tackle that.
but proximity is always great because you're eliminating transportation challenges and access.
all I say it's really easy to snuggle up with it and love on a five-year-old,
when they get to be 12 or 13 they're a little gangly and not as many people are as excited,
so that middle school age is a great age to make sure you have space for
those kids to be in and connect and be around positive role models.
>> do you have any square footage and calls projections for a facility here?
>> yes. It would need to be similar to what we built in queen anne's county, which is a 70,000 square foot
facility designed to where it could also be a senior center too. That project costs us $22.6 million,
so let's say you figured it out over the next few years,
you're probably in the $25 million range.
if you asked me 10 years ago, could we raise that kind of money? I'd have said no, but we've connected
to some folks that really believe in the work we're doing and see the impact, and so it's totally possible.
you just have to have everyone pulling in the right direction. >> did that include land purchase?
>> the county donated the land in queen anne's county. In st. Michael's,
because it's on school property, there's a 99 year lease there. >> right.
>> typically, if you can figure that out without purchasing land, it can be helpful because then you can put
your donated resources towards building the building. The state has been supportive.
governor hogan was supportive of the st. Michael's project,
the chestertown project, salisbury project.
governor moore supported the project in queen anne's. If you think about it, if you're raising $16 million in
private contributions and the state can help on the back-end, that's a pretty good win for them as far as not having to carry the load,
but can be the winners at the end to help make it happen. >> again, at one point,
we were talking about an indoor and outdoor pool, correct? >> yes.
>> I think, one of the holdups before was what we just talked about,
availability of edus and water and so on,
which have to come through the town. >> I think the component to that was that,
you had the emergency services center, I think it's still on septic.
>> [inaudible] department. >> yes, sir, and so
town leadership at the time really wanted that whole site to be annexed and then you had new access and some other components,
it was complicated and then the town was looking
to apply for cbg money that could maybe provide some infrastructure.
as I said, it wasn't as easy as is lift as you would like it to be,
and so that created some challenges. >> I think [inaudible] might be a little bit different.
>> that's great. That's amazing. That's wonderful. Sometimes it just takes awhile.
it took us 17 years to build the y in queen anne's county, 12 to build st. Michael's,
but all the chips fell into place in chestertown and we built that one in three. As I said, if you get a little lucky and get everybody on the same page, it can happen.
>> was there any county contributions other than the property itself in either one of those two projects financially?
>> the project in st. Michael's is a much smaller y, it was only an eight-and-a-half million dollar project.
the land was provided through a lease agreement and the county provided a small gift and helped us secure that $800,000 grant.
>> for the aging. >> yeah. Queen anne's county, because it has that senior center piece that's operating five days a week,
the county contributed three-and-a-half million dollars and then donated that parcel of
land and then helped us secure that $800,000 grant there as well.
>> good? >> good to see. >> thank you for coming in. >> good to see you too. >> thank you for working on one in here in carolina.
>> thank you, sir. >> really important to us. >> I'll need a five minute. >> at this time, we'll take a five-minute recess and then we'll go into our
>> you're terrible.
>> our next action item is resolution number 2023-025.
stewart, do you mind giving us a synopsis of what this moratorium will actually do?
duration, public hearing, and application.
>> well, the current version we've got that we worked on as late as yesterday
is only for a 60-day moratorium on these facilities,
which we defined as facilities that have this daf residual in it,
which is basically animal waste byproduct that is being shipped into the county and stored in open-air containers or lagoons,
which are constituting a nuisance to neighboring properties with infestation of flies
and various adjectives for the odor a very bad odor,
which constitutes obviously a nuisance to the neighboring properties.
we have looked at wicomico county's ordinance, which they've enacted.
this moratorium would give the commissioners an opportunity to study the issue,
schedule a public hearing in approximately 4-5 weeks.
this would be probably third week of january.
the issue for the commissioners today is to decide whether or not you want to issue a moratorium at this time,
or whether you wish to study the issue a little bit more, hold a public hearing,
and then decide on a moratorium pending the enactment of legislation,
a new ordinance which would address these things because the storage of these materials is not regulated by the state.
the application is, but not the storage.
>> right. Thank you, stewart.
it's my understanding that we have a mr. Cropper here and a couple of representatives from denali.
if you would like to come forward, we will have an opportunity for
these representatives to present us with some information here and then
we will open it up to public comment after we hear from these representatives. Good morning.
>> good morning. Thank you. For the record, my name is mark cropper I'm a partner in the law firm ayres,
jenkins, gordy & almand. I represent denali water solutions llc,
which I think most people in this room probably have some familiarity with.
I first became aware of this issue about two days ago.
I'm sure there are many in this room that have a lot more detail about this particular debate than I do.
but when I was first contacted by my client because I do have familiarity with daf-related disputes.
I was involved in wicomico county dispute. I was involved in the legislation that wicomico county ultimately adopted.
I shared with mr. Barroll yesterday, a legal memorandum that I prepared for
the benefit of the commissioners on this particular issue.
I don't intend to get into a big legal debate here today because I don't think it's the proper forum,
which is why I supplied your council with that legal memorandum yesterday.
the principal points in that memorandum had to do with preemption.
it's my position here as well as it was in wicomico county,
that the state of maryland has preempted this field regarding the regulation of daf.
I respectfully disagree with your council that it doesn't extend to storage.
I believe it does extend the storage and I addressed that in the memorandum.
in one of my conversations with mr. Barroll yesterday,
am I saying your name correctly? >> barroll. >> barroll. Thank you. He did ask that I try to have some representatives of denali here
today to answer some questions that you commissioners may have that may be site-specific,
may not, but I'm just not familiar with all the individual sites that may be of concern.
not only to you commissioners but some of the people in the audience. I have with me glenn dowling,
who is with denali, as well as samantha pope.
samantha probably has more information regarding specific details.
I have them here to do their best to answer your questions.
with regard to the process that you've undertaken with regard to this moratorium, I would say this,
that under moratorium law, and as I stated in my memorandum,
maryland law is and I'm going to be real short on this, but maryland law is pretty clear on what is necessary to impose a moratorium.
I don't think in this instance, it meets those qualifications.
because again, the state of maryland, I believe, has addressed many of the issues that you intend to
address during the period of your moratorium ie investigating the issues
surrounding not only the storage but the land application of daf. Because the state of maryland has already addressed that specifically in its statute,
I believe caroline county you commissioners can certainly investigate this.
you have every right to do so. I just don't think it's necessary to impose a moratorium while you do so.
I would also asked you to please consider before you impose a moratorium,
have the public hearing. Have a public hearing first and let anybody and everybody that has an interest in this matter of
calm and present evidence to you before you impose a moratorium.
moratorium has very significant and immediate impacts on a lot of people.
I would most respectfully caution you not to do that
until after you've completed some investigation and the public has had a right to be heard.
my client, denali, is more than willing to voluntarily and
cooperatively as quickly as you want to communicate with you,
your staff, your consultant, answer questions, provide whatever information you want as part of that process.
but once you adopt moratorium,
this goes in a whole different from a legal perspective that quite candidly,
we don't want I don't want. Even though the draft moratorium has been modified
from a year to 60 days, it's christmas.
I really don't want to work over the next 2-3 weeks, quite honestly and my wife is going to be really upset with me if I have to work over
the holidays to address the legal concerns of my client regarding this moratorium.
if there was an urgency, if there was an immediate need that I was
aware you need to address that quickly probably I wouldn't be sitting here saying this.
I don't think there is. Maybe I'll learn about it here today as part of this proceeding.
I don't think there is an urgency that necessitates the moratorium,
but fully welcome and fully support the investigation you want to undertake.
that being said, you've heard enough from me. Mr. Dowling, would you like to address the commissioners?
>> if I may commissioners, thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today.
my name is glenn dowling. I'm a senior environmental manager on the advocacy team with
denali water solutions based out of arkansas.
I have an extensive background in federal state, and local government operations and I appreciate what you do for the county as
I used to work for the association county commissioners of georgia as one of their legislative director,
so I deeply appreciate the work in the service you provide to everyone here.
denali has three priorities. One is we are a safety first company.
second is we want to be the best value to our customers to provide continuity of service,
and that continuity of service extends not only through growers and producers, that primarily through the processors who provide thousands of
jobs in the food processing industry. Lastly, we worked to remain regulatory compliant at the federal state,
and local levels because nothing could be more important. Denali is a recycler of organic matter nationwide.
it is about resource recovery of valuable products and by-products that we upcycle into feeds, fuels, and fertilizers.
what we're here today to talk about is that for the soil amendments of fertilizer side of our business and working with food processors.
in speaking with nutrient recovery, we always talk about keeping those nutrients at home where they're
produced it to support the agricultural community, where they come from.
in speaking to this particular resolution, I'm reminded, I don't know if any of you guys been in rotary international and all,
but we always had this four-way test that said, the truth, is it fair will build goodwill and friendships and is it beneficial to all.
it's that fourth test that says, will it be beneficial to all concerned, that I strongly suggest this effort may not be beneficial to everyone concerned.
in fact, there's a high probability of unintended consequences that we may not even recognize yet.
I just want to let you know that I did watch the recording of your last meeting.
I appreciate everyone's mr. Porter, I believe the woodward's mr. Hammer, everyone spoke passionately about this issue.
but it's about the timing of this moratorium is pretty curious because it's being considered at
the inception of the 2023/2024 winter new nutrient application ban
in both maryland and delaware. What I want to point out is it's difficult to accommodate when
that storage of those materials is essential to the continuity of service of businesses.
state of maryland department of agriculture, others can speak to this better than I might, but it is allowed by the state to store those materials
specifically to protect natural resources and water resources on the eastern shore.
you hold that over those winter months because there is that ban. Also in the timing,
we just learned of this issue last week. We just got a copy of one draft late friday afternoon.
I'm just now seeing this new draft today. I would suggest and support what mr. Cropper just said
about holding your public meeting prior to passing any moratorium.
it would only give not only the public and us time to come together and express any interests and concerns,
but it would also give us time to work with your county staff and I commit our time,
our professional resources, and environmental compliance, and operations, and technical advice and soil science.
I commit that to you today and we'll start as early as today if you will just introduce me and our staff to your county staff who are engaged.
in watching that video, I learned that it was pointed out by
county staff that you don't have a specific regulation related to egg storage tanks and I think this is what it's focused at and what we could
potentially focus a lot of our energy to your benefit.
it appeared that this was aimed at one specific site or one specific issue,
and if we can help in that, we'll be glad to. I want to point out that a storage,
again is an essential agricultural tool and supporting the life cycle of
agricultural operations and I just want to point out that the dca,
the delmarva chicken association, clearly articulated the direct correlation between growing feeds,
chickens processing those chickens in the resulting capture of nutrients for recycling.
sometimes in what we've experienced nationwide too, is that sometimes when farmers don't have access to
these highly valuable organic residuals as an alternative to expensive chemical fertilizers,
they use these residuals to reduce their costs and increase their yields.
if they don't have access to these residuals, they may be forced into buying expensive chemical fertilizers,
therefore reducing their investments and local labor, equipment, parts, maintenance, and those things.
in some farmers we've heard, may have to actually borrow money for their annual operations costs.
but those are some of those unintended consequences that we don't understand that might happen in the future.
I think we all understood from the video that these products are registered with the maryland department of agriculture.
they're applied at agronomic rates and they are prescribed by own farm nutrient management plans.
even the citizens that spoke last week even acknowledged the value,
the npk value as a good use of a nutrient source and a setbacks and buffers are reasonable and adhere to.
so I would suggest four options. I think maybe three of these are more amenable than the last,
but I'll postpone the action of the moratorium today and we'd ask that staff were amenable solutions and
recommendations to address on-farm storage issues while developing regulations specifically related to egg storage tanks,
related to this specific case, and steady mentioned your last meeting.
this might address the concerns of those who recognized that this could be setting
a precedence for future actions and potentially have a negative impact on other farm operations.
that'd be option 1. Option 2 would be postponed the action for say, three to four months,
work with us in stakeholder groups to identify and understand county specific storage issues and help
develop amendable solutions while grandfathering in those existing facilities in order to serve agricultural community.
like president breeding said in the last meeting, come to some reasonable guidelines and expectations,
because businesses need reasonable guidelines and expectations, and that's what's beneficial to all concerned.
I wrote this that you could postpone, that's the third option would be postponed the study for a year.
but now I see that you've changed in this resolution is a 60 day moratorium. You could even postponed for those 60 days until a county-wide study is funded,
the goals and objectives are clearly identified and stated and completed so that the public can review that,
data can be reviewed, it'd be peer reviewed and stakeholders can review the study, and participate in crafting those solutions for you.
or you can act today and potentially create and be exposed to unintended consequences.
let me just suggest in closing, knowing these options and keeping in mind that overall narrative
about timing potential precedent, setting potential precedents, and having unintended consequences.
let me suggest a combination of maybe the first three that might be productive in moving forward.
out of abundance of conservative caution, and with all due respect, I would like to offer our decades of environmental,
technical, operational, and compliance expertise as a resource of information for your consideration.
we want to have productive discussions over the next few months and come up with a comprehensive solution for long-term results.
our work in caroline county and throughout maryland and nationwide provides essential services to many sectors.
they're all important, but today I'm here to ask that you let us help identify and
potentially implement solutions that provides continuity of service for your farmers.
you're growers, producers, processors, and the families that are buying these products at the grocery store at a fair price.
I appreciate your time and what's in your concerns today and your passion on this issue and with that,
we'd like to answer any questions you might have. >> okay.
mr. Cropper, have you challenged the wicomico county ordinance today?
>> no. It wasn't necessary because they expressed the incorporated to provision.
make it clear, it was prospectively applied only.
the daf tank had issue in that case, owned by [inaudible] was not impacted by that legislation.
even though I disagreed
with wicomico county's legal counsel on the preemption issue as regarding storage,
which is the same thing that your council has told you it wasn't necessary to challenge it because there was only one facility at issue, and it was grandfathered.
which I was going to raise with you as well. Your legislation, while in some regards mirrors that of wicomico county,
it does not include the language about it being applied prospectively only.
however, even without that provision, quite candidly, under the caroline county zoning code,
as well as state law. If somebody has a legal storage facility,
which is legal today, it's being used today and you pass a moratorium saying you can't store that material in caroline county for the next 60 days.
>> sir, I'm going to interrupt. Those storage facilities were set up for dairy and cow operations.
they were not setup for commercial storage of daf. These pits were created for the storage of on-site produced manures, originally.
they have been re-purposed. They do not apply to grandfather.
>> I'm not talking about any site specific property or site-specific facility at all.
what I'm saying is, if somebody is legally today storing
daf material that's in compliance with state and caroline county law.
even with the moratorium, it will become a legal non-conforming use and they will be allowed to continue doing so.
the comments you just made, I conclude, is that caroline county doesn't believe that at a particular location,
the storage of daf is legal. >> no, it's every location,
and I'm not picking on one location. The pit you're referring to was built without a permit recently.
I'm talking about all the pits throughout the county.
>> it's your position that there is no property owner,
no farmer anywhere in caroline county storing daf material in a legal manner today?
>> yes. That's my opinion.
is that tank still in operation? >> it is. >> it is. >> it is.
>> my question would be,
you talk about legally operating? >> yes.
>> would you consider a facility that comes
in and works and opens and is constructed without getting permits, would you consider that to be a legal operation?
>> I would have to know more about how that operation. [overlapping] >> I can tell you because there were no permits obtained
to build this facility and I'm talking about specifically, I'm going to call it the cedar lane property. Go ahead.
>> I don't want to keep beating this horse. Myself, as council to denali,
who was asked to be here today, I do not have individual specific familiarity with
any of the facilities that you may have familiarity with.
I'm speaking generally as to. [overlapping] >> here's an overarching question and I think that will probably cover everything.
does denali go out and inspect these receiving sites before they're used?
are they checked to make sure that the integrity of whatever the material is being dumped in will not leak into the groundwater?
do you check to make sure that those structures were properly permitted before you put them in use?
>> nationwide and state-by-state regulatory compliance is different.
I wanted to point out that we adhere to all regulatory compliance as required.
in some state it's all state dependent, but former lagoons that are nrcs qualified or built to
nrcs standards or have clay compact linings some are required to have linings.
I think the one you're talking about is made of concrete. I'm unaware. I haven't been there.
I hope to go see it later today.
but we have never had an incident that I know of,
of any ground impact and remember, this isn't industrial waste.
>> do you inspect? Do you go look at it and make sure it's not going to infiltrate into the groundwater? >> we would have permits.
we don't have ground wells around them. >> does the state do that, to your knowledge? >> as far as I know, the states don't require having groundwater monitoring around them.
>> do they look at the pit before this substance is put in to make sure it's secure? >> some states require that.
>> some states, but maryland does not. >> I don't know. >> maryland does not regulate the storage.
>> mda and mde do not regulate. >> another department of maryland, department of agriculture allows storage because you do have the wintertime ban.
>> nobody monitors the pits. >> let's do this. Let's work together to find out what caroline county's concerns are and
let's figure out what those requirements are that you would want on agricultural stores,
whether that's a lined pit, whether that's coverage. >> we do have the ability to regulate it then,
because the state doesn't occupy the space. >> I would have to defer to council on if you have that ability.
but I would suggest that there are some operational, or there are some constructed materials
that we can use to help cover or we could help maintain odors.
there are some people who are concerned about odors. >> mr. Daley, that leads to my question.
this board, the previous board, I think anybody will tell you we have supported agriculture in this county.
my wife's family's farm, we own a century farm.
but when I'm elected as a official,
born into my fourth term, when I have people who come in to our meetings and express concerns,
and they tell me that they cannot enjoy their property.
they can't go outside. The first thing I did last tuesday was to go to mr. And mrs. Woodward's farm.
I'm not very smart, I need to see things for myself.
I guess my question would be, among others,
we would not be sitting here today, if that issue had not been brought to us,
and had not been raised to us by them. I'm sure a lot of other people in this room,
mr. Hammer was here as well. If there are ways to control odor and control flies,
why isn't it being done? Why are we being put into position here of having to have this hearing,
be threatened to be sued? One of the things was if you pass this, you're going to be sued.
we've been sued before, we'll be sued again. That's what keeps lawyers money coming in.
but if these things are possible to do, I would imagine,
and I'm not speaking for these people, but if they didn't smell that odor and if they didn't have the flies covering their doors and windows,
they wouldn't be in here today. They got better things to do than coming here and say you're listening to us.
so why? >> did we know?
>> I'm sorry? >> did we know? >> no. >> okay. >> what do you mean, did you know? No. Wait a minute.
ms. Woodward, I'm sorry. The owner has been contacted about this.
>> I've been involved for 48 hours. >> well, I've learned more about this stuff than I ever wanted to know in the last week.
but when we have constituents who vote for us and put us into office,
we have to address their concerns. Now I can do one or two things.
I can walk out of here and hope that I don't run into them at walmart or at the grocery store,
but that ain't going to happen here. Or we can take it seriously.
we're taking this seriously. But honestly, if there are measures that could be taken to resolve this situation,
why has it taken this? >> we know, and wicomico county is proof that the smell and
the flies and the overall burden of it is this fact right there.
we know it. We know from previous experience that it exists.
>> you mean that the odor exists? >> yes. The odor exists, flies exist.
>> I don't think it attracts. I think it promotes fly reproduction.
>> go ahead. I'll let you. >> on a case-by-case basis. Let me say that,
I appreciate your comments very much. I'm here today because I just learned about this,
when my understanding is through the department of agriculture, we've only had one complaint over the past year,
and that's after all the storage and the land application, I want to say.
again, I want to be accurate and that's why I want to have conversations with your staff.
instead of stopping all actions, I'd rather have these conversations so that we can provide you accurate information.
but I believe we apply somewhere between 2,000 and 3,000 acres a year. In maryland is required to either be ground injected or to be incorporated that same day.
>> there's nothing in this moratorium that addresses application. >> okay. Again, this is site-specific,
and it's about the storage. I'm trying to point out that in our operations,
we know that if we get that material in the ground and it has soil contact,
that it helps with odor reduction in storage. It's a matter of, I think last time,
in your last meeting you heard that sometimes a crust will form over these lagoons that helps with the odor management.
there are times if we know there's an odor issue, there could be some operational projects that we could install,
whether it's odor misters, whether it's biological mixing that helps digest a little faster to help reduce odors.
there's covers, there's impervious, there's even straw covers,
that could potentially be implemented. But until we know there's a problem,
until we know there's an issue, we can't respond. We're here today to respond and be part of the solution.
>> you're telling me no one knew anything about this problem.
I find that a little bit curious because I think this has been a process,
has been ongoing with discussions between the person who owns that site and the people who've lived around it. It takes a lot.
>> I'm sure the person getting paid, didn't run to the person paying them and say,
hey, I'm getting complaints. >> but that's an operational problem. That's not my problem.
but I'm just telling you that I know over the years it takes a lot for a group of people to come in.
once they reached that point to come into us, they're looking for help. They're looking up here.
as far as urgency, there is a sense of urgency because before any other sites are opened up,
we're going to know the answers to these questions. >> let's do that together. >> there won't be anymore opened up.
>> let's do that together.
>> not only that, but what our concern is, road traffic.
we have a county road leading to this property. Tractor trailers up and down there all the time.
we've measured the roads. I know the width of the road, I know the width of these trucks.
we have school buses traveling. The road is being torn up. Those are the things that we also have to take a look at.
if there had been a permitting process that had been followed,
those would have been addressed and those would have been talked about through the planning.
katheleen is our former planning director. She's now the county administrator.
but if those permits have been applied for, there would have been review of those. There weren't.
>> again, if that site has a permit issue, that's a separate issue other than the storage.
I would agree if it's out of compliance with your permit, that's an issue for the county to take up.
>> I keep hearing about this site. Are we talking about only one site where you're getting
complaints or are you getting complaints about all the sites? That's what I'm trying to understand. >> no. I will tell you that I
talked extensively with a person who has another operation like this.
what he told me was that the material was delivered.
it was a former dairy farm. He called it a lagoon,
I call it a pit. But when the material is delivered, it is stored there for a limited period of time and it is applied
only on the farm that he owns and the farm that he rents.
it is not applied anywhere else. I may disagree, but he has never had any problem.
I've never heard of any problem. In this particular situation,
one of my dumb questions that I asked was, why is there material there all the time in this tank?
my guess is, that this is being hauled in.
it's being stored there because they don't have anywhere else to put it.
my other question would be, who keeps track of what goes into that pit?
>> can I go back to what you just said. Again, I'm asking because I don't know. When you said it's being stored there, at this one location,
is it being stored there for only application on that property,
but they just haven't applied all of it? >> we will probably have the answer to that question here in our public comment period,
but I know that there is also a pending case in talbot county.
>> I'm involved in that. >> okay. I'm not accusing.
I know in that case, there were circumstances where there were additional things being brought in,
in addition to poultry in the beginning. There was seafood,
and there was also biosolids [overlapping] from ocean city wastewater treatment plant.
>> then there were three soil conditioners. One of the three soil conditioners was what caused the complainants that's called sea [inaudible]
>> clam bellies? >> what's that? >> clam bellies. Clam waste.
affectionately known as clam bellies. [laughter]
>> I'm just asking this because my information. How do we know what is being delivered to this facility?
>> because it gets tested before it gets delivered. Not only that, but a misconception regarding the talbot county matter.
the biosolids and the soil conditioners, were only being land applied on the one property owned by mr. Folster,
who has now passed, and other properties owned or operated by mr. Folster.
in other words, there was storage taking place in concrete bunkers on the folster farm.
the storage of those soil conditioners when needed to be land applied to those various ag fields on the folster farm,
and I'll call the other folster properties, they would land apply it.
but obviously, you can only apply so much at one time.
there were considerable periods of time where there were soil conditioners
being stored in those concrete bunkers on the folster farm until land application was necessary.
that's why I was asking the question about the property in caroline county you mentioned.
for my benefit, is that because the land application of those products being stored wasn't yet necessary,
but it was going on that property or is the allegation
that they were storing it to either sell it to other property owners or to land apply it on other properties,
not those where it's being stored. Because that to me is a big difference.
again, these soil conditioners are in lieu of a standard commercial fertilizer.
it's just a soil supplement. >> honestly, I do agree.
if it's a farmer that is using it for his own purpose. >> yes.
>> but I can't tell you how many fields I've stood in, in the last 13 years,
with people who have just moved here, who called me up and say, I want you to come out here and smell this,
and I go out there and say that's farming. [laughter] I've done it over and over again. This is different.
>> on the talbot county dispute, [overlapping] we're not going to litigate it here.
all I'll say is, the principal issue in that case is the application of not only the state,
but the talbot county right to farm law, and whether it's a generally accepted agricultural practice to store and land
apply soil conditioners as part of what's got agricultural operation under both the state law and the county law.
>> real quick. Can you give me an example of another soil conditioner that a landowner would be paid to take?
>> first of all, I know on the talbot county matter,
the folsters were not paid to take the soil conditioners.
the folsters wanted the soil conditioner because they didn't have to pay for it as they would a standard commercial fertilizer.
I'll have to have mr. Dowling answer that question, but it's my understanding,
in the vast majority of the circumstances, or even all of them, denali is not
paying the property owner or the farmer to accept the soil conditioner.
it's a decision by the property owner or the farmer because it saves them money.
>> to answer that directly, what you're talking about is like a tipping fee into a landfill,
we do not pay a tipping fee. We pay for services, whether it's storage or the land application.
either we're going to own the storage or we're going to do the land application ourselves and we have teams across the country that land
apply biosolids as a astounding fertilizer.
>> but it answers to the time. I'm sorry. Nation-wide, I don't care about nation-wide,
I care about caroline county. [overlapping] >> we're talking about caroline county, and then the storage, and for land application. We pay for the service and the access and storage.
>> you lease the storage space. >> it could be [overlapping] the storage or the application because it's either the cost is going to be on us or on them.
>> so you can pay them to apply? >> we can, yes. There can be a subcontractor to apply as well.
>> that's an interesting way to get around it. >> well, because it's a standard agricultural practice.
somebody is going to do it. It needs to be done. >> name another soil conditioner where the manufacturer pays the farmer to apply it.
>> no. Manufacturer doesn't pay a farmer to the apply it. We pay for the service of application. Let me clarify.
>> you pay for him but you apply it, sir. >> that's the service of doing because otherwise we would be doing it.
we would have that cost. >> either lease the storage space and you apply,
or you pay the farmer to apply it on the property.
>> or both. >> there's money exchanged somewhere? >> yes. >> but its semantics are the,
whether it's a tipping fee or whether you're compensating in some other manner.
>> to store or apply is the operational part of our recycling the residuals.
okay. So let me clarify too. I think mr. Porter, you asked about storage year-round.
my understanding is a lot of the stores that we do have here in caroline county has been emptied out.
my last conversation with one of our operational managers, it's like 98% of the storage is empty.
we get it empty this time of year because you have the ban in place in maryland and delaware.
over the winter time, those will fill up, then the farmers will want to have that access to those nutrients
prior to planting to apply to their fields so that it will increase their yields. Traditionally, what I've understood,
and we can get more information on this for you, is they'll plot twice a year, once in the spring and once in the fall.
they get it out pretty quickly depending on if there is either a ground injection buggy or if it's a drag line. [overlapping]
>> my understanding is you had a person applying up until midnight on december the 14th and then we had
3 inches of rain come in to try to empty out their lagoon. Is that good practice?
is that good environmental practice? Do you regulate what's your people do or you just give it to them and say,
"here's your money, do what you want?" [overlapping] >> we direct and in states a lot of departments of environmental quality
require land application is regulated and there will be times when you know it.
number one is that agronomic rates, you don't want to have fido impacts on grasses over application, you don't want that.
no runoff, all buffers are respected, whether it's to public wells,
private wells, landowner property lines.
in oftentimes, they'll say you can't
apply [overlapping] immediately before rain and a lot of times that's in forecast that we're required to keep
those records that if there's a forecasted rain and it depends on the state. [overlapping] >> but you don't know what your farmers are doing.
you dump it, you don't know if a person with a pit is out not applying it properly, you don't know.
>> we respect that they will respect our operational requirements. [overlapping]
>> is that in the contract or in the agreement? >> they are to operate within the guidelines as required by the state.
>> which is oda or mde. >> right. >> right. >> [overlapping] it's the sort of conditioners of mda and the biosolvent.
>> [overlapping] well, we're getting off here because we're not banning application.
we're not even discussing that, we're just talking about storage.
let me lay out a couple of reasons why. >> okay. >> you guys have had a lot of time to talk here.
a couple of things, we also serve as the board of health,
which I didn't realize that until I was recently elected. [laughter] there are health concerns associated with the storage of this.
that's what I was alluding to with are these pits examined, are the storage facilities examined?
is this material safe to infiltrate into the groundwater? >> it doesn't migrate,
it's injected. It's either. [overlapping] >> no. In the storage if there was a break in a storage tank,
and it perked into the ground could it contamination groundwater? >> this is organic residual that does not contain toxic or hazardous materials.
this is material coming from food processing. In those facilities are using
food safety practices and procedures with what they use is what comes to the grocery store and what goes to your home kitchen.
>> why not put a field drain system in like a septic and just put it into the ground that way, at the plant?
>> that's a good question. I haven't considered it. [overlapping] >> I guess the answer to that question is that it was not required
by mda or mde at this time. >> do you allow year round storage in these lagoons?
you don't regulate that storage, people can store year round. >> no, not year round storage. It's only basis and think about this,
the reason we have storage too is because of seasonal or operational constraints.
you need to have a place to go to keep that material out of the plant so the plant can keep their jobs,
keep their people working all the time. >> they don't have enough capacity to store? >> correct. They don't have on-site capacity storage at these plants.
but note that this daf skimming is dissolved air flotation, I don't know if you've seen one, they're really interesting.
>> I hear they smell really good. >> they are awful. [laughter] you pull
that organic matter out prior to it going further down the water treatment system because it has
such a biological oxygen demand that it doesn't go to the publicly owned treatment systems.
you pull that organic matter out and you re-purpose it and you recycle it so that you keep solids like biosolids out of the waste stream.
you re-purpose them, you keep them out of the landfill. Landfills are expensive to permit and nobody wants to new landfill in their permit.
you take those solids out and protection of clean water. Prior to the clean water act,
what did we do with solids? Most of them just went to the river. The solution to pollution was dilution.
we don't do that anymore. We take this organic matter out and we recycle it as
a soil amendment or a fertilizer and in compliance with state law.
>> do you know how many storage locations you have in caroline county? >> in caroline county? I do not.
>> could you imagine how many might be in caroline county that we use?
>> that we use, if I had to guess. >> microphone, please. >> we don't even know?
>> no. >> I don't but I know my operations guys do. >> all I'm saying you're coming to caroline county you would know how
many you would've had before you come to the meeting. >> this was last minute.
>> wait a minute. With all due respect, I spoke to mr. Barroll last night at six o'clock.
I've had 24 hours to be prepared to be here. That's one of the problems with this proceeding.
again, I'm being as respectful as I possibly can. We have not had much time at all to answer
every question this board may have generally regarding daf in caroline county,
regarding denali's activities in caroline county. If this was a public hearing with 30-day notice or what have you,
it'd be a different [noise] discussion. We haven't had that opportunity,
which is the opportunity you want, and we can come to you with all information you desire.
we've had a real short leash here so please understand that. >> just say for example, even yet there's only caroline county is not that big.
>> I understand. >> I'm sure there's less than 10.
>> do you have an approximate number? >> it's four. I said I guess because there are
other potential locations that we could use but [noise] that we could be using here in
the next couple of months for this new treatment, it's four. >> there's a lot of people here from the town originally that are probably
concerned about one of your potential new locations. >> let's talk about that. This document,
we've only had since this morning when we picked it up in the hallway, but we've only had since friday afternoon to understand it,
to talk about it internally on monday and then reach out to legal counsel to reach out to stakeholder groups.
this has moved faster than we've known. Again, we've only had one complaint from
mda this year over all the storage or the land application.
I would respectfully suggest if you would please give us the grace of time with
you and your staff to help with your regulatory need as you identified in your last meeting.
you said that that was the thing I think ms. [inaudible] pointed out,
that you just don't have that on the books, and I think if that's something you want to do, that is your right, and you can do that.
let's work towards that instead of passing a moratorium and facing any potential unintended consequences.
>> what plants does the product that's coming to caroline county come from,
is it just chicken producers here on the shore? Is it coming from new jersey?
>> no, it's on delmarva, most of them. Do you want me to list the four that I know of?.
>> manor farms, tyson foods. >> valley protein and amic.
>> well, yes, valley protein, starling, and amic. >> okay. >> but it's all daf.
it's all what comes out of a daf unit. >> I know you all say that you wouldn't know this.
in caroline county, I'm going to ask you, is there any concrete silage platforms?
we store other waste solid. >> I don't know that on concrete.
>> meaning [overlapping] bellies besides pig and again,
is there any other places that, make sure we answer carefully. You don't know.
>> right. >> is there any other place in caroline county that is
taking old concrete solids, bunkers? >> yes. >> storing any type of solids anytime a year,
being aka clam bellies, human residuals.
the solid portion of that, because sometime is a solid portion of that.
is there any place in caroline county that it's taken in the store and for example, 12 account?
>> yes, there are two locations that could do that. >> could or did.
>> could or have been. >> that have been. >> that have been. >> but there's that sea watch clam bellies.
it's no longer going to land application. >> because we're not ours alone or?
>> no, because to try and help with some of the older issues that we've had in the past.
>> the talbot county issue. >> I'm talking caroline county here. >> I know. But you've mentioned the clam and her answer was
denali does not deliver that to any locations now,
whether caroline county or otherwise other state. >> okay. >> because of the edible plants, we experienced at talbot county.
>> what about human resilience? >> none. >> nothing we can do about bile salts. >> yeah. >> yes. There's one location that stores class a bile solid.
>> you do have class a. >> on a concrete bunker. >> yes.
>> has the denali in any way before they stored it anywhere,
have they went and did a scope of the area to see if there's any wetlands within reason of where we say hey we'll store it at your facility,
but hey, we need to do a check first and make sure there's no wetlands involved within so many feet of property.
like the other day, we had to answer to rain and all the rain comes out to a concrete bunker it all goes out, they don't stay in.
>> depending on the storage requirements, I'll speak to a couple of other southeastern states that
require 12-inch freeboard on their storage facilities, some are 20, just depends on
their requirements so that they can assure that it's being emptied, that is being utilized,
that you don't have overflow so that you don't have that natural resources. Speaking to wetlands, property lines, well heads,
all of those we have an extensive gis mapping staff that
looks state-by-state to make sure that when we go to a farm, we have mapped out where those well heads are,
where those property lines are because state-by-state, those are regulated in different distances and we have to make sure we comply with those.
in fact, if we were on a teams meeting, you'd see my background is a greenfield with a light stripe down the middle where
fences and it's because there's property buffers there that don't get applied.
but you would notice that where it is applied the fields are green and the fields are more productive,
but those buffers are respected. >> are you aware of any regulations that influenced the storage here in maryland?
does maryland regulate any? >> I believe.
>> I know they do with chicken manure, it has to be mounted up in a certain distance but do they exist for def?
>> I believe as I cited in my memorandum that.
>> I don't believe they exist, sir. >> well. >> I mean, do you know? >> you asked a question. I'm answering your question.
I believe as I indicated in my memorandum, that storage is part of the process of utilizing data material and as such,
the storage and the material is preempted as is the land application of it,
that's what that memorandum says. >> you're saying just for layman's terms,
storage is concrete covered on the application part side of it. >> there is laws that address not only the storage of it.
the laws that address not only the land application of it, also addressed all other aspects of testing,
utilizing, land applying, or otherwise using def material.
to use def material it's got to be stored, if you can't store it, you can't use it.
in other words, there's got to be some level of storage somewhere. Therefore, my position is under
the state ball to the extent the state of maryland has preempted the field regarding that,
generally, storage is part of that preemptive.
>> but it's unregulated. There are no regulations that you're aware of, it's preempted.
>> it is preempted not only by state ball law but there are
also comar regulations that were adopted pursuant to that state law.
>> we have been down the preemption road many times here
and you can imagine that's not a very good word for us.
well, let me ask a question. Are there occasions where you talk about it's necessary for it to be stored?
are there any occasions where you do applications to land where it's brought directly from the plant?
>> yes, we do. >> it's not required to be stored. >> it depends on the operation. >> it's more convenient if you store it, but it's not required.
>> it depends on the operation, it depends on the operator, depends on if we have those assets available.
there is direct land application that's available, but oftentimes you will see people bring in temporary storage.
you can actually see large above-ground storage tanks,
temporary tanks, you can see in-ground there's there's all sorts. The reason for that again is mr. Cropper just described is,
storage is essential for seasonal, for operational and for other challenges.
you may end up with a week of rain. You're not going to ground the plot when the soils are saturated.
>> that's right. >> that's another thing and almost all the parts of agriculture, they don't want their soil amendments applied in saturated soils.
what that definition is, is different state to state, but that's common sense too.
that's a common sense practice. But I want to get back to mr. Porter concerned about wetlands, and I really appreciate that because I'm a big water advocate and I
appreciate everything you do here to protect the bay and protect the public health and public resources.
but as far as looking at because we're focusing on storage if there's something that would give
council commissioners and public comfort in what that storage looks like and what would be required for a storage pit,
a storage facility that would meet your expectations,
that you've mentioned in your last meeting. That are reasonable? I think that would be beneficial to everybody and I
think that if we could take that time to address those specific concerns and have those questions.
I think there's a lot of questions that are unanswered here that I think we would want to be able
to engage our operational staff to make sure that your county administrator and attorney understand.
>> I agree with that, but I will tell you again, and I know that none of you are here
who are involved in the permitting process, but I will tell you.
if the permits had been applied for, all of those issues would have been reviewed.
they would have all been reviewed. There are people sitting in this room who I can tell you would,
with me as you're in the front yard over having to get permits for things.
we make our own citizens do it, and the fact that they came in here and just thumb their nose is really a problem for me.
I will also tell you that I just got appointed this year by the government or I am a voting setting member on the critical areas commission.
I'm serving that sentence right now. I will tell you that I am very concerned about it as well.
but all of those things would have been addressed, all of the wetlands,
all of the critical areas questions would have been addressed and I am not blaming you guys.
>> if there's a permit compliance issue [overlapping] we are not disagreeing on that.
>> [laughter] I agree with you. Time to disagree with all, that's not it.
>> well, I don't know.
I feel like this product could contaminate the groundwater table as the board of health,
I think it's our responsibility to make sure that we put protections in place to protect the health of our citizens,
and if it contaminates the groundwater table, we could be in a grave public health situation there.
as far as the police powers that you pointed out in your memo, the operation,
if we unregulated it condemns the neighbor's properties so they can't use them outdoors because of the flies and the stink.
if we allow the storage anywhere and everywhere all summer long,
are we not allowing a property owner to condemn a neighbor's property?
>> I wouldn't agree with that legal analysis no,
and when you indicated that regarding the regulatory perspective.
>> well, it says we can administer police powers if it serves a public interest.
>> exactly. >> that's not a public interest, condemning a neighbor's property to be able to.
[overlapping] >> it's your verbiage that condemns the neighbor's property,
I don't think it condemns the neighbor's property. >> it reduces the property value.
>> what I would say, and I'll refer to the talbot county debate in answering this.
again, in the talbot county debate, it was whether or not the storage and
land application did or didn't violate the talbot county right to farm law,
which we contend it did not, and the talbot county agricultural resolution board and
talbot county matter as well as anything before this county. >> where is this product produced?
is it produced on agricultural lands or is it produced on commercial industrial properties?
>> when you say this product, what are you talking about? >> def. >> well, it varies. It comes from various locations so go ahead.
>> it's in food processing facilities. [overlapping] >> industrial. >> well, when you say industrial, it puts into the minds of people, it's hazardous.
it is not. This is in a food processing facility. >> on industrial-zoned property.
>> but we cannot reiterate something. >> right. >> it's industrial zone property,
so it's an industrial use. >> soil amendments are regulated by the maryland department of agriculture for a reason.
it's considered an agricultural product. It's not considered an industrial waste regardless of from where it came.
I don't think it's appropriate to say because it was created as
a result of an industrial activity that it's an industrial product.
if it was mda would regulate and as with the bio-solids from the talbot city,
which comes from its wastewater plant. Well, that's regulated by the maryland department of environment
as opposed to the maryland department of agriculture. Those regulations just similar to those from
mda characterize that product as a soil supplement, a soil manager.
it provides nutrients to soil, there is no different from a standard commercial fertilizer.
I just don't want to confuse the issue with regard to where it comes
from versus how and why it's regulated by the maryland department of agriculture.
caroline county is a massively agricultural community.
I'm from wooster county. The same thing, I think 70% of wooster county is on
agriculture is the principal industry in wooster county,
if you take a subsidy out of x. The agricultural operation that
we're talking about is simply that it's an agricultural operation
using an agricultural product that's considered to be a generally accepted agricultural practice in furtherance of an agricultural operation.
>> under that guys it should be able to be stored anywhere, in anything.
>> well, it still has to apply. [overlapping] >> like a 55-gallon drum we put it out here. >> it still has to comply with whatever laws,
rules or regulations have been implemented by mda,
mde, or through various regulations so when you say it can be stored in anything anywhere,
I don't agree with that statement. It's still a regulated activity, but it's regulated through mde and mda that's what I am saying.
>> this is my final. [laughter] >> we've been on this long enough.
>> I hope you can understand when we talk about values of property.
>> absolutely. >> this is an issue that we face all the time.
if a person goes to sell their property and the person who comes to look
to buy that property comes at a time when they can barely breathe and flies and they can't even see out the windows,
it hurts the value of that property. I go back to this,
if there is a way to prevent that from happening, I guess I'll just keep going back to this.
why has it taken this to get to a point where there's an offer to do that?
I guess, that's what my question is. >> is it because you didn't know, is that what you're saying? >> yes, sir. We got this information as of last week and let me
just close with this because I know time is valuable for everyone.
it's my understanding in 2019, I think caroline county grew 50 million chickens,
and those chickens go to processors, large, what you would call an industrial facility.
those chickens go there to be processed and sold into the market.
that hardworking families buy to feed their families. >> we love chickens. I eat a lot of chicken.
>> me too. >> this is not any shot against chickens
>> no. >> it is a concern
of addressing our concerns that citizens have expressed to us. [overlapping]
>> on stores. That's why I want to focus the conversation because storage
is essential to support those 50 million chickens going to the facility to go into the market.
those residuals come back to support the growth of grain that feeds those chickens and then goes back.
it's the cyclical nature of agriculture that we support. This is about the storage.
[overlapping] if you would give us a couple of months, 60 days,
90 days to get with staff and you, and let's talk about what those solutions look like,
this could be a model for the future. >> when we have these processing plants and I
can remember barely a time when there was a conveyor belt that emptied into this river.
I'm sure some of the older people in this room older than me then can remember
that it used to be [laughter] a conveyor belt that just dumped it into the river.
I know that the poultry industry is well represented and I know that there's a lot of money.
should there be some responsibility for the poultry companies to handle the storage of this material on-site?
>> we can talk about those issues with you at another time.
that's a discussion with poultry companies. We are trying to service the agricultural community in
caroline county and keep the poultry industry's wheels on. Providing them with supporting good jobs. [overlapping]
>> we have poultry farmers in this county and I know they're all staring at us, this is not against them.
>> correct. >> this is about storage and what I heard was that specific site and
that specific issue and let's go to that and I will go back and
I think that mr. Bartz and I are going to have some conversations about environmental protection because I respect that
and I appreciate that but I would respectfully request mr. President if the commission would give us 60,
90 days reprieve to have those conversations with staff at
your direction and let's talk about what you might look for in the future.
>> we will take it up in closing and I'll shut up.
an agriculture company nutrien a, do they pay people to store liquid nitrogen, you think?
>> I don't know the answer to that question. >> that's a very big no. >> what I'm saying, it's a commercial agriculture product.
nutrien a, don't just pay your lease tanks out to store on somebody's property. You don't have to answer that.
>> I'm going to address that in that when there is a commercial application of nitrogen fertilizers,
those are done by the co-ops in a very expedient way, what we're talking about is not a fast process.
having access to farms it's somewhat slow and laborious to get this
done but it's done in the right way for the right reasons in protecting water resources national,
and supporting the agricultural community. >> I am talking at my end of story. >> okay.
>> works or lease? You guys pay the lease.
>> we may have to purchase and build above-ground storage in some areas that we would own and manage.
>> okay. >> if someone else has that storage, we could potentially lease or pay them for that storage access or for that service.
>> a farmer doesn't necessarily buy your product. >> no. >> or he would buy liquid nitrogen or whatever from nutrien a.
back to your commercial waste part.
I'm familiar with other waste maisel being a by-product
of ibuprofen comes from north carolina, it comes up here.
we bring it up all the time, it's a sub-additive of nitrogen,
and it's stored in tanks. It is commercial waste and when we bring it up,
it's stored all the nutrient nag and all day and they store it the tanks, anything in closed tanks.
one issue I have here is with the smell.
I'm afraid, I don't want to get into the point where poultry manure later on say,
hey, this is what the moratorium is and it's because of the smell.
>> correct. >> I don't want poultry manure to be the next day. >> no >> you did it here? >> no.
>> now we do poultry manure that's never going to happen.
as far as the permitting process for the woodwork,
considering a property, that there was no permit issued for this tank.
if there was a permit process, the neighbors would have had a chance to voice
their opinion on the effects of their livelihood and they were robbed of that.
that's something that us commissioner has got to take into consideration.
that's all I have to end it. I thank you guys for your. >> thank you.
>> coming in late. >> sitting here. [laughter]
>> let's do it. >> I'm a little curious that you're surprised by
the complaints about odor and fly infestation when denali has been sued in multiple states over the last several years for
exactly that and you're telling us you didn't have any idea that that was happening here?
>> not on that farm. [overlapping] we have not had a complaint because we operate lagoons and site,
and excuse me, we operate lagoons and sites nationwide that don't have complaints.
now and then, there might be owners and there might be issues and we tried to address those.
we want to be environmentally compliant, operate within the law per state,
and make sure that we do want to be that good neighbor.
we want to provide that farmer with nutrients so he can reduce its costs and save money and increase his yield.
that way he can invest in a new tractor, he can invest in his kid's future,
he can invest in keeping that family farm. But, until I know there is an issue, I can't respond.
>> that's what I said. Historically, it has been very site-specific because you can have
the same exact product being delivered to a different site that may not have many neighbors,
maybe surrounded by woods, the same exact product applied,
the same volume, the same month and you have no complaints.
if there is no complaints, there would be no reason for you to visit that site and do anything about that.
>> there's no need to be proactive by checking out the site before you let that stuff get next to the people living there.
>> we respond to the complaints that were filed and this is just one of those examples.
>> you've been shut down in a couple of states, alabama, missouri. >> we're not shut down.
>> everybody check the google internet for this. >> I'll just stop.
>> well, we appreciate you guys coming in and fielding these questions and allowing us to ask.
I mean, I didn't get answers to some of them specifically.
>> we can get you those answers. >> correct. >> whatever questions you have, we can get you the answers.
>> we just couldn't come here today with every answer to every question. >> thank you for coming. I know you probably had to fly in or were you in the area?
>> [laughter]. >> I saw [inaudible] all you had to jump on a plan to get here. >> honestly, I'm from georgia,
but I used to spend a lot of time on the eastern shore back in my youth and I really enjoy coming back here.
it's one of my favorite places to visit and I appreciate what you do for all the citizens of caroline county.
>> this is believe me, not an easy decision, and I ran for election a year ago,
I had no idea that I'd be sitting here. >> me neither. >> discussing this so tonight.
>> [laughter]. >> but anyway, thank you. >> you didn't hear a word about this. [laughter]. >> thank you for coming in. At this time,
I'm going to open it up to public comments. Go ahead, brian. Since your relative hold on,
let me give my little spiel over here first. >> he's my wife's cousin, so I'll let him go first.
[laughter]. Please direct all comments towards the chair.
do not address any other member of the audience, please or county staff for the interests of time.
I know we gave these people a lot, but please try to keep your comments to three minutes.
your time may be extended if you are questioned by one of the commissioners or county staff,
if your testimony is consistent with the previous person's comments, please just tell us that and try to keep your comments
shorter to keep the time we're here reasonable.
when you come forward, please state your name and your address.
with that, I'll go and open up. >> mr. Smith. >> do I need to stand there? >> yeah. Whatever you want to do
>> my name is brian smith. I live 268444 voicemail road, greensboro, maryland.
I'm a lifetime resident of caroline county. I'm a poultry producer of 19 years and I'm a grain producer and I've
been working for a local poultry company for over 19 years and no way am I here representing that poultry company.
I'm here representing myself. Just a couple of clarifications, I had like three pages and stuff I wanted to say but,
I'm going to skip all that. The site is on river road that we're talking about.
I just want to clarify somebody had mentioned cedar lane. >> it's at the end of cedar lane. >> it's river road.
first thing the why comma cook county clarification, that was a ban on building new storage structures,
and currently why comma cook county is still allowing the store to def in their county.
there's not a moratorium on store to death. The second thing is travis,
you had mentioned, why don't we just pipe it directly into a string? Well, it's nutrient heavy,
it's loaded with nutrients so we can't direct discharge into a stream that well. >> well I meant septic system like a draining field,
not right in if it's safe for groundwater. >> well okay. Maybe I must have misunderstood you, but I mean, basically,
you can't direct discharge in any local waterway because of the nature of load on it,
which is why it's a commodity for farmers because of nutrient load.
the second thing is, it really does affect chickens and it affects all chickens.
that affects all chicken growers because death is a part of our process. If we cannot store def and use our def,
the poultry industry is effectively shut down and every bit of my livelihood is tied to the poultry industry.
I understand that def has a odor and I'm not here to defend that odor at all.
but I think the reality of it is we've already solved the problem right here.
you asked the question, how many locations do we have in this county and
nobody knew because the rest of them have not been a problem. We got one bad actor.
def is a really good story. It's a poster child for recycling,
sustainability, nutrient sources for our farmers. It's a great story.
don't let one bad actor ruin it for everybody. >> overneath cash flow. >> cash flow, it's everything.
it's a great story, it's a great story for farm, and in our community, we got one bad actor,
and just from sitting here, sounds like to me we've got enough to pull him out of the mix all together.
didn't get permits. I mean, if you can't stop a man that didn't get permits from doing business, I don't know.
I mean, I guess the permits really aren't effective. Stop that guy, shut that site down,
but let the rest of the sites still operate that aren't causing a problem because they're not I mean,
they'd been operational for years. We don't even know the amount of sites on accounting because they'd never been a problem.
if they would've been a problem, we've known about every single site that we have.
sorry for my passion in this, but this is every bit of
my livelihood and every bit of my well-being is tied to this poultry industry. I got a 13-year-old son and I want to be a farmer someday,
and if there's not poultry in this county, there's not farming in this county and that's just the facts of it.
I appreciate the time. Thank you. >> thank you, brian. >> thank you.
>> anyone else? Grayson?
>> not take up too much of your time, I would just say ditto to that,
but I'll read my statement. A lot of what's been said here is valid.
again, that was my major question when this all came up and for the record,
I'm grays middleton with delmarva chicken association, but that was the first thing that came to my mind is why hasn't this been
handled on the regulatory side if he's out of compliance with permits?
I don't think the death and the rest of the counties has really been much of an issue.
I'm not here to defend any one party or any one particular piece of our industry but like I said last time,
we have many constituent pieces that like that gentleman back there just referred to are affected by each other.
if one piece is hurt, then they all are and it trickles down very easily more so than you might think.
we recognize that there are some valid concerns that were expressed in here today.
I will just say that between my communication with
the county and then my communication with some of the stakeholders in this room today, it does seem like respectfully,
there has been a little bit of miscommunication. I think that if we do wait 60 days,
90 days to have those meetings, to have those conversations,
to have a public hearing, a lot of those concerns I think that the stakeholders,
including denali, are willing to address. One of those things being perhaps timing,
coverage of the containers, road traffic.
I think those are all issues that can be addressed through open dialogue that frankly,
I think has been lacking or they're just hasn't been time to have that yet.
we do have a concern as an organization with
a generally accepted agricultural practice in maryland being banned by the county.
I think that that has certain implications that could go further than this county.
we know that these members here, are ag-friendly,
but there may come a time in either this county or another one where that's not the case and that's
something that's less controversial than daf is on the table.
I would also address the timing. That's already been gone over but again,
there is that issue of timing. As you know, maryland has nutrient ban from december 15th to february 28th.
not only has there not been proper discussion on this,
but it comes at the worst time to enact a 60-day ban because when it can't be put anywhere else.
our only real request is that this vote be postponed or the actual ban be
postponed until that there's time to have a meaningful conversation around this issue.
respectfully, I think that
the association would be happy to facilitate any kind of that communication between any of our stakeholders and the county.
>> thank you very much. >> thank you. >> anyone else? Dave?
>> david chris, director of operations town originally. As far as the farmer practices and stuff go,
that's beyond my expertise, but I think really what needs to be looked at is the zoning part of it.
if the one on peavine road happens and I'm still confused why it's not considered an industrial waste.
hanover foods, all they did were vegetables and that was considered industrial,
but that's besides the point. If they are allowed to store it in the current lagoons that are out there.
you're within a mile of a public park. You're within a mile of a school.
on the wrong day, it's dramatically going to ruin the town originally on a certain wind.
north wind, northwest wind, the town is going to be covered in it.
the town has no say over it because it's outside of town limits by 300 feet,
400 feet, something like that but we're going to yield all the calls.
we're going to yield all the complaints. We're the ones that are going to get blamed for it so the only thing I can ask you,
as an employee of the town originally, is to really look at the zoning part of it and push it away from public parks, schools,
and stuff like that because if the kids can't even go outside during recess because of it, what are we doing?
[noise] that's all I got. [noise] I appreciate it. >> thank you, dave.
[overlapping]
>> then we have the elementary school and then the caroline north little league field,
which that's all the north side of caroline county, which is right there on the doorstep of
where this placement. Thank you, guys. I appreciate it. >> thank you, dave. [noise]
>> george best in 14000 cedar lane. This pit is on river road is not connected to cedar lane. This is nothing new.
three years ago, the farm across from us, the farmer,
they brought in similar material, but it was in big mountains of guts and liquid.
spread it, did not inject it or anything. We had the same horrible time.
the whole house stunk it. It's not like you couldn't go outside. You couldn't stay inside, close down everything.
I called the department of agriculture. They sent an inspector out steve zeletski
and he had other issues with the same farm or another farm. Now, that material came from a different pit up in the northern part of the county.
I think you all know who that is. These are all after the fact things when the inspectors get called.
this one this past week was done up cedar lane from our property.
I could smell it the next day. My friend who lives up there called me and took pictures of river,
lakes of this stuff. It was not injected into the ground. It was put it right on the top.
disgusting, there's has got to be an answer that and like the first guy said,
it's one bad actor. I don't know about these other ones. I'd never heard of this before except for three years ago and then this past week.
the other question I have is what are the pathogens that are in this material and that the flies carry around.
our house was covered, same as these other peoples completely black,
couldn't do anything about it. I see the process and companies as having a large responsibility to
store this stuff and then if you can apply it properly, okay. If not, don't.
thank you so much for your time. >> how was the smell at your residence?
>> saturday morning? It was bad. >> recently? Yes. >> not as bad as a mile up the road.
I'm about a mile and a quarter down the road from where it was applied. >> okay.
>> yeah, it was outside. You didn't want to go outside? >> how long did it last, the smell?
>> all day and it was even smelling yesterday and of course then we have three inches of rain,
all that flush right down in forge branch, right in the top bank river, right into the bay. Wonderful.
>> all right, sir. Thank you for your comments.
>> I'm his down the road neighbor, ben simpson, 14621 cedar lane.
been married to my wife for 53 years or 54 years or so.
but been with her for 57. [laughter] don't want to lose her. She's had lung cancer.
they came and spread the chickens, which I didn't know was going to stink that bad and equipment he had was wooden,
it was on top of the ground. They could say it was in the teeth were there but the
moisture or whatever didn't get into ground.
we didn't know the smell was going to be that bad and that long and it's still is.
had it in her car, her clothes.
>> how long ago was this? >> last tuesday.
it was two days before the rain and it was like there until 11:30 each night.
then this last episode to come up there did the other part.
there were so many tractor trailers as this stuff coming down here, it was just unreal.
I had a friend down the road had washed his car off because
it was leaking on the road so it's hard to tell where it ends up.
>> are you experiencing any bad odor because of the stores or is it strictly just the application?
>> the application. It's kidding.
holiday, stay in the smell. >> it didn't appear to you that denali was doing the application here.
this was a private farmer. Do you have any way of knowing?
>> yeah. >> okay, so it wasn't denali.
okay. Thank you. >> okay.
>> mike woodward, 24512 marblehead road.
I expressed my concerns to this board last week, so I won't go into a whole lot of details.
this particular application or
this particular place that we are talking about is storing this material.
I can tell you firsthand that we live with this 375 days a year, and it's terrible.
you cannot go outside. If the winds in the right direction then you
cannot open the front doors because of the flies that come into the house.
if you talk about a public nuisance, we got one and we need to do something about it.
I appreciate what the board is doing. I don't know how he's taken care of this farm.
don't care. It's not my business. But when when it starts spilling over to my property,
it is my business because this is reducing my land values of my farm.
because nobody would ever want to buy a place like this, smelling the way it smells around it.
we keep a pretty decent place, I think. We try to anyway. But land values are going to go down in the whole neighborhood because of this.
I have a picture here I'd like to introduce to you of the concrete storage tank.
it's overrunning its sides. It's actually spilling on the ground.
this picture was taken on the 17th, which was last sunday. I don't know who I give it to.
>> [inaudible] >> certainly, pass it around there. >> mr woodward, can I ask you a question?
>> you sure can. >> I think, when we talked out at your farm that you had indicated,
or there had been indication that there had been some communication with the owner?
>> that's correct. >> he was at least aware of?
>> yes. He was definitely aware. >> I'm not questioning whether he knew or not, but he knew that there were problems.
I think, you have been in communication with him, text message, phone calls.
that goes back to my question, again, rhetorically.
if there's a way to do something about this, I'm not going to buy the fact that no one knew,
because they did know, because you have been in direct communication.
>> I had been for programs on health stuff that related to them flies.
because there's programs that go along with that through mda, and environmental, and whatever.
I asked him for those programs. Nothing. >> okay. While the communications may not have been with denali,
they were with the person? >> they were with the guy that owns the farm.
>> you did not reach out to denali? >> no, sir. >> okay. >> no, sir. Did not. The other concern is
about groundwater and contamination to the groundwater. My well is probably I'm going to guess
100 yards from the edge of the field where this is being applied. Plus we have the concentration of the daf that's in the tank,
that's spilling over the sides that you had the picture of. That's going to go somewhere. It's not going to just sit there.
it's going to go into the groundwater and it's going to go into the aquifer.
we have pictures of a ditch right beside our house that has a skim on it.
you can tell it's a skim on top of the water. >> have you contacted mda to have them come out and look at it?
>> no, sir. >> I think they've been out there. I contacted mda.
from what I've been told from mda that everybody that's been applying,
the different calls that they have received mda said everything is applied.
now, it could have been like the other night, the one that you said that wasn't done properly.
if mda was called and they didn't research that, but the times that mda has been called,
they said they had never found a wrongdoing as far as, injection on the ground.
>> yes. >> mr. Wood, how often? Since you've been there,
has it always been put on that farm next to you? >> it was put on that particular field right by my house last spring.
it was applied last spring, and it was applied again this fall. >> this fall and they'll probably apply it again this spring again as well.
>> I'm pretty sure it's probably his plans. I don't know for sure, but I would guess it's probably what's going to happen.
he did put an aerial cover crop on the corn while it was still standing.
but then he come through and actually supposedly knifed in,
the daf right over the cover crop, so the cover crops basically gone.
if they put it on, my question is they say how good it is to the soil.
well, that's okay. In the springtime, you can see where it would take up the nutrients with the coordinate is being planted,
but in the fall, where does the nutrients go? They don't just sit there in the ground. They're going to go somewhere. It's groundwater runoff or whatever.
they're going to go somewhere because it's liquid. >> is this issue with odor and flies,
is it in a particular time during the year, or is it year-round?
>> it's year-round. For us, if the winds out of the southeast, we get it.
if it's for the rest of the neighborhood, the winds either the north or northwest,
whatever, because the pit sits in the middle, and all the neighbors around it, they're going to pick up the odor because it's the way the winds blow.
I was told that the crust that formed on it, and it helped control the odor.
but I'm here to tell you it doesn't stop the flies, it doesn't stop the odor.
whatever can be done to stop the odor. >> when I was out, I think I came out last tuesday after our meeting and we talked.
I didn't notice anything. But somebody else must have been getting it at that point.
>> it was on the front of them, it was on the river road side. >> mr. Bartz smelled it. [laughter].
>> yes. Wednesday. >> so we've been out there bothering you. [laughter] >> that's okay [laughter]. I welcome that.
an unwelcome odor and the nuisance that this causing to all and the whole neighborhood because
it's really going to degrade our property values and degrade our property so we can't even stay outside.
I work at a small saw mill during the week, and I couldn't even stand to be out there the other day.
it was that bad. Thank you for your help. I appreciate it.
>> thank you. >> thank you.
>> my name is justin [inaudible], 1734 river road.
I appreciate you guys bringing this together. Everything that's been said here, I agree with.
but the one thing that I want to point out is I own an electrical company here in caroline county, and if I don't have a permit, I get a stop work order.
like you guys had mentioned, it has robbed us with our opportunity to voice our opinion and if you don't follow the proper channels,
what's the point of a permit at all. That's all I've got to say. Thank you, gentlemen.
>> thank you. >> stewart, check your texts.
>> jean myers, 13264. I'm going to talk fast because I only got three minutes, I got a lot to say.
13264 river road. I live down the end of river road.
I have been a lifetime resident of caroline county. I raised my children,
my husband and I do things to benefit the county. We volunteer. We don't take from the county.
we don't make money from the county. My property borders one of the potential distribution sites.
in the proximity a five-mile appropriate circumference,
there are four properties that are associated with this holding tank property.
they are potential distribution sites, two additional properties on river road,
one on cedar lane, and the one in ridgely, peavine road.
all of those property owners that have adjacent properties to
these distribution sites should be aware of the potential odors that are coming their way.
it's a decrease of the property value. All of us are rural residents.
we have our own wells. What's it going to do to our water table? I have a shallow well.
my shallow well is probably less than 150 feet from the edge of
this field where this stuff was distributed for three days, night and day.
this man has proved that he has no regard for the rules and regulations of the county,
because he did not get any permit to do this. What do you think that he's going to do to follow
the guidelines that you establish on this gentleman. Anybody from the county knows,
you can't put a kiddie pool out without permit. But yet, he's been able to do this.
as far as the smell, I feel so sorry for the residents like mr. Woodward.
I passed by there one day, the odor got in my car. It took two days to get it out of my car.
I didn't even roll my windows down. I experienced the odor firsthand this past week when he
spread it on the property adjacent to ours. There are so many people in that five-mile radius.
one of the properties is the fuchs farm right next to the high school. How are those kids are going to go out and do their sports?
have parents come to outdoor activities, if he's got this mess spread out there?
it's so close to the trap tank, who's to say it's not going to affect the runoff.
the thing with this is, there are so many people in that five-mile radius that aren't even aware.
I was not even aware of the meeting last week or the meeting this week. I think the people that this could greatly affect need to be informed of
the possibility that their life will be altered once this stuff is comes to the county.
I appreciate you listening to me and appreciate you taking the time for doing what you were doing and I appreciate anybody that came today to support me.
>> thank you. Is there anyone else?
>> it's just me. I'm john bucker.
I live at 506 maple avenue, ridgely. I'm actually a resident there and commissioner.
I want to agree with what david chris said, and what everybody else has been saying.
this issue, my wife actually has a school bus and the smells now inside her school bus,
and the kids are always complaining about how the bus smells from the odor that comes off of river road.
I just think it's going to be a big problem. It's going to bring everybody's value down.
the way we've built ridgely up, there's going to be people selling
houses and getting out of here. That's all I got to say.
>> thank you. >> jim lewis, 123 [inaudible] ridgely.
I don't live anywhere near that, so I just wanted to answer a question for you that somebody asked so you would know.
environmentally or chemistry wise in the soil, if you apply it in the fall, it's going to stay in the organic form.
it's not going to convert to a nitrate forms. It's going to leach into the ground water, so as long as it's still in bionutrient management plan,
that part of it's actually okay. But that has nothing to do with the odor and we're really not addressing in that.
the other thing I want to bring up while I'm up here that I can't ask them, but I would think that you all would ask them,
denali could fix this, the poultry industry could fix this in a heartbeat. Just never let this man that there's a problem,
ever have it again on any of those properties, any place that he has at anywhere around,
they fix the problem real quick. If they promised somehow that to you, then that solves a lot of these problems.
you don't have to get through hearings to address it. You don't have to do lawsuits with the person. They can address it real quick like that. Thanks.
>> thank you. >> as far as the application of it goes,
I think we're trending a fine line on right
to farm-act when it comes to the application process.
but the storage again, I think is what we need to address here,
not so much the application. I agree that with the odor,
we have a fine line here when it comes to agriculture.
that when we apply things, that's what we do here.
it's agriculture, whether it be chicken manure, cow manure, any type of roundup spray that you smell.
I understand you're going to cure different smells throughout the year.
the state regulates this as far as its sole amendment.
you were preaching up the wrong tree here to try to stop any type of application of this product.
any farmer, I think, can tell you that. But as far as the storage,
I think the storage is the main factor here. That's where I stand.
hey, I live out in the middle of a farm. I experience odors all the time.
I think we need to keep these two things separate.
>> go ahead. >> we can show you pictures of, we're talking a difference between application as a way to properly
apply this stuff by injecting it and you see these pictures. >> [overlapping] I think what commissioner bartz is saying,
in that argument or that discussion conversation needs to be had with mda, not with us.
that's maryland, but we don't disagree. It's just that we don't have regulatory authority over that.
we feel like we have the ability to control storage because we feel like it's a commercial venture.
you're being compensated to store it. It's an industrial waste product.
I don't care how mda, it comes from an industrial facility and people are paid to take it.
I don't know what other definition you could add to industrial waste. Then, it comes from an industrial property and people are paid to take it.
you can dance around semantics on how you're being compensated,
but ultimately you're being compensated. We really do believe that the chicken companies
and their vendors who take this product have culpability here.
it's their responsibility. It's ultimately a product that they're producing.
I would rather not be here because there are going to be people who store that I've spoken to.
brian feels passionately about continuing the storage. I've spoken to other residents in the county who benefit from it.
I understand all of those positions, but also, when I see someone taking advantage of the system,
which is what I feel like here. I feel like it's an unoccupied territory by the state,
which we have every right to jump into and regulate.
>> again, I'd like to follow up what you said. >> we can't pick and choose though either.
>> the man doesn't have the permit, so that starts to give you the ability to say, hey, look, this guy didn't even have the permit to build this structure, shut him down.
because there's other facilities that have operated without an issue. >> but the hanover, brian, if we don't,
and the hanover facility goes into storage, if they start to store material outside of ridgely.
>> how about you do this? Why don't you say let's do it more like [inaudible] county let's ban any additional storage sites.
include this one that's the problem. He's not permitted properly and let the other facilities that are
working fine, let them continue.
but to say, look for now, let's stop any new ones. Let's shut this guy down he's not permitted,
the people who then doing it right. [overlapping] >> that one's already constructed though.
>> mr. President? >> yes, sir. >> I can state for the record, because we had a conference call yesterday.
denali said they will not deliver any materials at all.
soil conditioners to that ridgely location. That will not be a location that will be a denali served facility,
either of storage or land app, so if it helps your consideration. I can say that for the record.
>> is it currently at denali? >> no. It was referred to earlier as a potential site.
for the record, I just learned about it yesterday, but my client said they will take
that off the table to the extent that it was considered [noise]. >> where's it coming from now?
>> recently, it's not in storage. >> was it considered a potential site?
>> for some water processing residuals.
>> I agree.
I'm not a lawyer, I wish I was, because I probably wouldn't be up here.
I think that I need to take a little step back here because I am concerned about,
it's not prosecution, but picking out one person.
I agree, I don't work up. But, if we have a person that is not doing what you're supposed to be doing,
I'm fine with dealing with that person. I just don't know from a legal standpoint,
if we can selectively pick someone. If we can, if I'm going to agree to a polls or study period,
then I'm going to want a number of things. I'm going to want there to be
a specific time limit on it because this isn't going to drag out. We're not going to be talking about this 10 years from now.
this is an immediate problem. I'm going to want something that's going to say that there will
be no new facilities that would be started.
but I am not interested in going back and hurting the people who were in
operation now who've been doing what you're supposed to be doing. I'm not interested in doing that.
my concern from setting up your allotted a long time has been,
and I'm looking at my council here, is it possible to address one facility?
>> the proper channels haven't been taken. >> pardon? >> the proper channels haven't been taken, they haven't followed the parameters.
>> there are things that are in place addressing that. But my concern is from an overall standpoint,
if we have a person, and I guess there's no one here representing him I'm assuming.
>> not to my knowledge. >> okay. >> so he doesn't even care. He didn't show up.
>> well, I think he cares in what is being said. But if that's possible to do,
then I'm leaning toward that, but I'm going to need some time to find out.
>> thank you mr. Porter, I don't disagree with anything you've just said.
I do want to reiterate something that this gentleman said often in his statement.
he's in the poultry business. Because the wicomico county column legislation came up.
I did want the commissioners to be aware that in wicomico county he was correct. They didn't ban storage facilities,
they've regulated where they could be. In other words, the storage facilities for
that material are stalled out of wicomico county. They just regulated where they have to [overlapping].
>> but mr. Crawford, did they also institute that they had to be in sealed containers?
>> I'm going to try this from memory. >> I understand. >> okay. I don't have it in front of me.
I think legislation affected both covered and non-covered,
and how it's regulated differed depending upon whether it was covered, or non-covered.
that's my memory. But I just want this board to be aware of, they did not go to a panel of storage facilities.
they just determined where this facility is going to be. >> as I said, I've gone back and tried to research and tried to read those cases.
I hate reading. I don't know how you guys do it, but I mean, I've tried to read these cases to find out exactly what they did.
>> but I also agree from an enforcement perspective, if you have a property owner and some non-compliance,
either from local zoning perspective or state regulatory oversight,
it really is a site-specific, operator specific issue.
there are avenues for everybody. This set of commissioners and the public.
members of the public contact mde, mba, whomever, that was going to issue permits for this particular site and pursue enforcement.
it just sounds to me like that's really the crux of this hearing. >> are there other companies?
I would assume that there are probably some other companies who would
deliver or produce or provide this material other than denali?
>> yes, sir. There's many. >> do you know if there's any providing the materials in caroline county?
>> I do not.
>> it would be [overlapping] >> it would be a different competitor of ours.
it wouldn't be the processor specifically, it would be a service provider, a contractor to them.
there's several other companies. >> there's other companies and not only denali does it,
you guys spoke it at the beginning of the meeting. They want the people that you represent as far as taking a product. [overlapping]
>> what is this large companies, middle-sized and there's even [noise] local companies that usually do it on a local basis depending on the residual.
>> what would prevent us sitting down with you and all of these parties,
and you saying, I'm not going to provide this material to this specific site.
what would prevent another company from coming in and bring it to them?
>> nothing. >> other than the permitting issue,
I've got to agree with commissioner bartz, in other words, if this particular operator can't get the permits
to utilize this site for storage and/or land application, it will be that.
obviously denali can't bind. >> now, I understand. >> I think ultimately the producers need to be in
the room because they have control over where it goes. Allan's, mountaire, purdue.
I think that's where this all starts.
>> I think they should be in the discussion. >> they have control of the product, apparently.
>> they control the product. >> I think we do. I think we have the ability to regulate it as well, but we'll see.
>> is there anyone else who would like to speak? >> I just have a comment. Our road is not designed for
that monstrous trunk to tear up and down it all day.
>> no. >> [noise] the smell. [noise] what comes off it is contaminating the entire neighborhood.
>> ma'am, what is your name and address? >> oh, I'm sorry. D. Gesford, and I live at 1375 river road.
just to say one last thing. >> yes. >> can you just hold off until after the new year before you talk.
[laughter] we doubt it's going to happen between now and after january 1st. >> a lot of [overlapping] stuff can be hauled into
this county and dumped into pits and a lot of people in this room could be adversely affected by the smell and the flies.
that could happen with all due respect, sir. A lot of material could be hauled in over the holidays and dumped into these lagoons.
>> [overlapping] they're hauling them.
>> this gentleman would like to say something. >> I just want to say, the smell it hadn't gone yet and they don't respond six days.
when it was supposed to shut down, I think it was friday night,
he was flipping on top, it wasn't going in the graph.
>> right? >> the backup on my statement of mr.
breeding, long stains are applied,
the way they're supposed to be done, how they are supposed to be doing. We have no jurisdiction over that.
>> every time we are exposed to it, why are we sitting in here? >> I thought I was disagreeing there.
but let's say that's something we can't even touch. But like I said, the storage part,
one thing that concerns me with the storage and I never touched
about it earlier is when you take it from multiple sources and it goes into one tank.
I could see when one farmer stores it for himself and applies it to his fields in general.
but when you store it in mass, and it gets distributed to multiple farms,
all over the place. That to me it's a fine line from right to farm, hey,
this is my little corner of the world and I'm taking this stuff and I'm going to apply to my fields and it's going to stay here.
but when you said it concretes all in one great big and masses of gallons and it goes in all different directions.
that to me becomes commercial storage and a commercial facility.
>> can I respond to that? >> sure. >> everywhere you store these materials or even fertilizer,
you have to comply with a plethora of laws, rules, regulations, environmental and otherwise.
in other words, to store this material, we had to make sure that it complies with certain regulations and goals.
the more locations where you do that, the greater the risk of a violation because you're
trying to control and contain at more locations. The more locations the higher the risk.
most farmers will tell you, and I think all farmers will tell you, they prefer to store at one location because it's easier to contain,
it's easier to control. Then they deliver it from that location to
the other properties they either own or manage. It's a control benefit not only for
the farmer but quite honestly for the community because the risk of a violation,
the risk of a leak, the risk of a contamination, if that was even viable,
is greater at the more locations you're storing it. That's why they prefer to do it in one location or I'll say fewer,
but predominantly one location and take it from there after their other properties. >> there's only so many locations that you can go to.
>> well, it depends on the farmer. If you have a farm that's forming 2000 acres and it's 10 different farms.
but he either owns or leases all those 10 farms and he has one farm
that's best to store because it either has concrete bunkers or otherwise,
then the farmer is going to store it at the one location, but utilize it to all of the locations.
>> you've misunderstood, I'm talking about the one farmer that stores it all. >> right.
>> goes to multiple farmers, individual farmers. That's two different things here.
>> you and I are talking apples and oranges. >> yes. >> I'm talking serious farmer saying.
>> I see what you're saying. I understand that. I'm talking about commercial storage where they take it from and stored in
one big location and then it goes to this farmer, it goes to that farmer.
wherever we can put it in the ground. Whoever take it that's the issue.
>> that's not what I was addressing. >> no, you're fine. That's what I'm talking about.
>> yeah, steve. >> where you're treading on a little bit of a funny bridge
there when you start talking about storing it one place and taking it out.
you're talking about def product. We also in this county, we have some guys that are doing the same thing with chicken manure,
doing the same thing with waste products that come from walmart,
and whatever being composted. They're all being put in one place and then they're
being sold out or taken in other places. It's not only the def that you're treading on
a gun with fine line there when you start talking about storage, it has to be stored this time of the year because the state will not let anybody buy.
>> poultry manure is made on the farm itself. >> yeah, but it isn't used by every farmer.
>> but [overlapping] it's made by the farmer. >> there are also people now that are cleaning out houses,
taking it and storing it, and then redistributing it in the spring or all winter long.
it's not just the def that you're talking about, it's other storage.
>> it's stored in a maryland? >> garden. >> it's stored in a maryland-approved facility into a manure shed.
>> I don't know that all of it. I can show you plenty of them that aren't, I'm not getting into that. >> no I saw the number.
>> but I can show you how funny they are. >> I'm sure you can. I can do a bubble to look hard. >> I mean, you're treading on thin ice
by doing this here because then you open it up to the next one. >> certainly you should question.
>> something like that. >> then you open it up. If they didn't pay you to take it would you take it?
>> I don't get paid to take it. >> would you take it for free?
>> I would, I have taken them for free. >> okay. >> it's a very good ground.
>> you answered my question. That's fine. >> I didn't have to use any commercial fertilizer, [inaudible].
you're taking a product, it's an end product of our chicken industry,
putting it back on the ground growing another grain to grow more chickens.
it's just like the beef, I would say that it's a big part of caroline [overlapping].
>> let me ask you a question, would you pay to take it? >> what was that?
>> would you pay to take it? >> would I pay to take it? If the cost benefits versus commercial fertilizer. Yes, I would.
>> all right. >> I mean, it's no different than in bringing sludge from across
the bridge and putting it in our landfills or acres at caroline county.
those trucks come in here every day and you guys sit here talking about trucks, these narrow roads.
we've got trucks that are bringing that stuff from across the bridge. We got trucks that are running sand out of all these places here [overlapping].
>> I don't disagree with you on that one. >> it's not only [inaudible]. >> I don't disagree with you there,
but I mean, you've got a valid point. >> do we want to reassess and go into closed session
here to receive legal counsel or do we just want to vote on this moratorium? >> I need some legal counsel.
>> well, we'll step out I think the best thing to do instead of evicting everyone here.
>> I think you do a recess and your closing statement. >> let's do a recess real quick so we can write a closing statement.
>> I texted it to you. >> you did? [background]
>> I didn't receive any texts. >> they're on your personal phone.
>> the commissioners are going to vote to enter into closed session under general provisions
3-305b7 to consult with legal counsel. Here in motion.
>> so moved. >> second. >> all in favor say aye. >> aye. [overlapping]
>> I'm going to step out for a minute. >> all in favor say aye. >> aye. [overlapping]
>> good luck with recording that [inaudible] jane. [laughter]
>> do you record [inaudible] too? >> yes. Do you ever report out?
>> I do [inaudible] [laughter]
>> the commissioners just met to discuss
details regarding the passing of a caroline county daf moratorium.
we'll just read it when it comes in, when he gets it in we'll go over it.
but we discussed the moratorium present where commissioners porter, bartz,
breeding, katheleen freeman, daniel fox, stewart barroll, mary berneski,
kim raeder, and jennifer reibly.
while we're waiting on that new language that come in, we're going to move on and go ahead and take care of our consent agenda.
does anyone have any questions regarding anything on the consent agenda? >> I make a motion we approve the consent agenda.
>> second. >> motion and a second. All in favor say aye. >> aye.
>> aye. >> motion passes unanimously. County administrator's report.
>> just a few very brief things you may have seen and I know you all saw on facebook,
there are some complaints made about day spring apartments which are operated under contract by the county.
I just want to report that when the complaints were made on facebook,
the issue that they were [noise] was already being addressed and we've circled back and that's been taken care of,
so just be aware in case you did see those complaints, it's resolved.
danny and I received an email from debbie bennett,
that the central library is now open on the first floor as of this week.
second floor and third floors are still operating as storage and undergoing some work,
but the first floor is open and accessible to the public as of this week for debt and library.
as you know, I just want to remind you, we had really now three roads that are at least in emergency or quasi-emergency state.
gilpin point road and [inaudible] road. We're dealing with both of those roads and should be issuing
a contract shortly to a contractor to start doing the repairs, we're waiting for some final,
legal language on the contracts. Then, as of yesterday, with the flooding river road is now missing,
probably approximately a 10 foot by 10 foot piece of asphalt,
the top layer of asphalt. Dpw will be taking a look at river road also.
then the last thing I had is just as fyi, I met with staff from both senator carden and sander van holland's office yesterday.
they are offering, [noise] as they always do, their assistance on any federal level projects
or anything we might need help with from them. It was more of a meet and greet. We talked about north county regional waste water system and water treatment system,
and any other projects that we have that they can help us with. That's it.
>> thank you. County commissioner, urban discussion period.
>> [overlapping] I got the maco legislative schedule,
which is going to be tying me up every wednesday from when session starts.
[noise] fortunately, most of them will zoom.
>> you don't have anything? >> only thing I could say is, I thank everybody for coming out.
this is, as you can see, a major concern for its citizens and constituents.
I value everybody's opinion. At the end of the day, the decisions ain't easy.
but ultimately, [noise] we have to come up with something and try to satisfy everybody.
I just want to thank you all for your input and any comment that you guys are made,
it's been took into consideration. >> thank you.
>> this subject has really consumed most of the last week and doing research,
speaking to members of the public on both sides of the issue.
like commissioner bartz alluded to, it's not an easy decision
to make here. But we've done a lot of research, dug into this.
we've had some major road issues, as katheleen talked about, a couple of pipe failures.
our infrastructure is aging. We have a lot of capital improvements that we need to make to our existing roads.
look for that in the upcoming years and we'll try to catch up there.
[noise] I guess we can go back into recess for a few minutes
until my understanding is it's printing now and then we will address the moratorium.
>> for those of you who were here earlier, I would ask you if you
would support the [noise] lucas nagel [noise] foundation.
it's difficult for me to talk about, but he was a really good kid, and a tragedy.
it'll be one year this new year's day.
all right. Let's go into recess. [noise] >> okay. >> yes. >> yes.
>> [noise] if they forget [inaudible] says that. >> still the only changes are at number 5.
>> I added some language to the title. >> okay. Do you want to go over to changes?
>> sure. >> okay. [noise]. >> we'll go ahead. Let's go back into session.
calling the meeting back to order. In our closed session in an attempt to avoid
the distraction and expense associated with legal action, we directed staff to amend section 5 to allow
for storage and facilities that have been used prior to january 1st, 2023.
stewart, if you want to go over any other changes. >> yeah, the title. [noise] I
inserted [noise] the words,
"it's a temporary moratorium on certain use of land
or structures for storage [noise] of these things''. And in paragraph 1,
the moratorium being established, [noise] we changed the wording
[noise] to state that the moratorium has exceptions to it.
so paragraph 1 hasn't really changed except to add exceptions to this prohibition of set forth in [noise] paragraph 5 below.
paragraph five [noise] below is changed to
indicate that the moratorium does not apply to use of structures or land which have been used for
the storage of food processing residual and/or daf residuals prior to january 1 of 2023.
in other words, we're not addressing legality or not of such facilities.
we are stating that future uses of land or structures are subject to the moratorium.
this does not directly attack a pre-existing facility.
however, the commissioners, I don't know if you've already spoken to?
>> no. >> enforcement action that'll be taken against.
>> any non-permitted structures. >> that is in existence right now.
>> we have directed staff to prioritize enforcement
of our permitting process on non-permitted structures at this point.
>> [inaudible] [laughter]. >> I want to make it clear that I am pro [inaudible],
but this needs to be cleaned up.
you need to carry that message back that we are not going to have this go on in our county.
this does not mean that I'm not willing to vote to put a moratorium on the entire operation.
because frankly, I am, but I think we need to sit down at the table.
it needs to be addressed and we need to be a part of it.
and the citizens of this county need to be a part of it and they need to be heard by the producers,
by the haulers, and by the applicators. Mda, I think needs to be doing a better job.
but they don't have to do a better job if the applicators do a better job,
then we don't have as many complaints. So stick to the regulations and make sure that they're enforced.
but anyway, [noise] those were the amendments to the new moratorium. Do you want to add anything?
>> I agree with commissioner [inaudible] I'm ready to put a moratorium on it as well.
but in lieu of what we discussed, we are going to give a little window here.
so I'm with him. I'm ready to put the clamps on it so you guys
need to come to the table and figure out what's going on. >> respect the neighbors, respect this community.
>> this isn't the last of it. >> mr. Kroc.
>> I just have a question. >> yeah. >> if I understood what mr. [inaudible] said,
it only pertains to not past facilities, structures, or land; just future.
and I'm looking at january 1st, 2023. Shouldn't that be 24?
>> no. [inaudible] for 60 days.
maybe that should be today's date. >> that was what confused me because it just pertained to future.
I thought that should be 24 not 23. >> the purpose of that is because we do have the one bad actor.
[noise] >> okay.
>> [laughter] >> if you were receiving daf prior to january 1st of 2023 this year, you are fine.
>> what confused me was the statement that only pertained to future and so obviously that often gets back to [inaudible].
>> yeah. If a property owner farmer was receiving
the material prior to january 1st of this year or last year,
they are enabled to continue to receive that material. >> thank you.
>> well, let's put it this way. It's not subject to the moratorium. We're not saying anything is legal or illegal at this point.
we're simply saying future uses are not allowed during the period of this moratorium.
[noise] and in a totally unrelated enforcement action,
any of these facilities that might have been operated
in a non-permitted structure will be subject to a cease and desist order.
>> we are also establishing a public hearing on january 23rd at 06:00 p.m. That's listed in the moratorium.
[noise] and following that public hearing, I think we also would expect to be working
on more final ordinance language and we appreciate the offer of assistance.
we'll definitely include those interested people,
citizens, and companies involved in that process to develop appropriate regulations.
>> thank you. >> I think I wanted to just add that as to the current bad actor,
as we call it, I think we will all reach out
to the farm and environmental for help with this enforcement action.
and so this is trying to cut the baby in half.
it took a while, but to me, I think this is the fairest way to go.
people who are doing what you're supposed to be doing will not be harmed. And we're going to go around,
make sure that we make every effort to make sure that people's properties and lives aren't adversely affected.
and we will look for help from everybody.
>> good. Any further discussion here? I hear a motion.
>> go ahead. >> motion to adjourn. >> we got to vote. >> [laughter] >> I'm sorry. I know I'm hungry too.
>> I'm sorry. Motion to adopt resolution 2023-025.
>> second. >> as amended or [overlapping]? >> as amended.
>> as amended. >> yes >> second. >> motion and second.
all in favor say aye. >> aye. >> all opposed. The ayes always have it.
>> thank you. >> thank you, everybody. >> now I'm moving motion. >> motion to adjourn. >> [laughter] >> second.
>> motion and second. All in favor say aye. >> aye.