1 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:16,560 The 1990 traffic analysis addendum formed the basis for the prohibition of 2 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:22,400 speed bumps in the DUD. Um stated that studies were mixed on the effectiveness 3 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:29,439 of speed bumps. um we have 30 more years of of studies um to to look at and in 4 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:35,920 general we find these days that speed bumps and speed humps are are effective 5 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:41,600 at reducing speed. Um a lot of it's in the details of what kind of what kind of 6 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:46,640 bumps you're installing, what how they're spaced, etc. Um and there might 7 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:51,600 be other measures that are more effective at reducing speed. Um, 8 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:57,280 installing removable speed bumps is probably the the most cost effective 9 00:00:53,680 --> 00:01:01,359 treatment you could you could try to reduce speeds here. 10 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:07,040 Um, the 1990 addendum also stated that it 11 00:01:05,119 --> 00:01:12,400 said if after the site is constructed and occupied, significant problems 12 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:18,560 develop, more extreme and expense and expensive measures can be taken to 13 00:01:14,320 --> 00:01:21,920 restrict through traffic. Um, Now, while that pertains to through traffic, I 14 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:28,240 think you you may be able to apply the same logic to um to speed and installing 15 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:34,000 speed bumps in this case. Um so if you know if speed bumps were 16 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:40,720 installed and they reduce speeds that will make the road safer for all users. 17 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:46,640 So we feel that this condition is met. Um the second standard 18 00:01:44,159 --> 00:01:51,600 um for your consideration um is subset of that uh site circulation 19 00:01:49,439 --> 00:01:59,280 and parking design must be designed to ensure access for emergency vehicles. 20 00:01:55,360 --> 00:02:03,759 Um we spoke to our fire marshall and uh in Cascade Township we generally allow 21 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:07,840 speed bumps but we want to know what their size and dimensions are because if 22 00:02:06,079 --> 00:02:12,720 they're too tall those can cause an issue. Um, we also require that there be 23 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:18,080 signs installed that warn people that there are speed bumps at so that you are 24 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:23,280 not caught unawares. Um, so we find that this condition can 25 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:28,400 be met by requiring that the fire marshall review the speed bumps before 26 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:33,200 they are installed. Um, I will point out that in most cases 27 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:38,480 um, we don't, you know, we don't have any 28 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:43,920 requirement to do such a review. Uh this case is kind of uh it may be unique. I 29 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:50,000 don't know of any other planned unit developments that have a prohibition on 30 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:53,840 using speed bumps. Um so if you were in pretty much any other planned unit 31 00:02:51,599 --> 00:02:58,319 development in the township, you wouldn't have to go through any sort of 32 00:02:56,160 --> 00:03:02,802 review to install speed bumps. That would just be at your discretion. 33 00:03:00,782 --> 00:03:02,802 [snorts] 34 00:03:04,959 --> 00:03:17,519 Um, we did uh we received uh one letter in support of the of the amendment. Um, 35 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:22,800 and two I think it's actually three now letters that we've received that voiced 36 00:03:19,519 --> 00:03:27,120 some concerns. Um, we've also fielded some inquiries in person and over the 37 00:03:24,959 --> 00:03:32,640 phone. mostly from people just looking for more information about the request 38 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:37,760 because when we put out these um when when we post these public notices, we 39 00:03:34,799 --> 00:03:42,720 don't always include a lot of information. It's hard to include a lot 40 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:48,640 of information in those. So, I understand when when folks are looking 41 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:53,040 for more information. I would be too. Um so, 42 00:03:50,959 --> 00:03:58,000 uh stepping through here, do you have some considerations for the commission 43 00:03:55,760 --> 00:04:02,959 tonight. Um, I've changed the wording slightly from what was in the staff 44 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:08,480 memo, but I mean, first and foremost, does the proposed amendment meet the PUD 45 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:15,760 criteria uh for a site circulation? Um, that's pretty straightforward. Um, 46 00:04:10,879 --> 00:04:20,000 number two is a little a little more, I guess, thoughtprovoking. So, we don't 47 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:24,320 prohibit speed bumps on private streets elsewhere in the township. So, are there 48 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:29,680 compelling reasons to continue to prohibit them in the watermark PE where 49 00:04:27,759 --> 00:04:35,040 they would be allowed or where they are allowed in other residential areas? And 50 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:39,040 then finally, just not put too fine a point on it, but granting this request 51 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:42,960 does not mean that speed bumps will be installed. It would leave that up to the 52 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:48,560 condo association and the members of the condo association to actually make that 53 00:04:45,199 --> 00:04:55,040 decision on whether they're installed um or not. 54 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:59,040 So with that, I think I'll wrap up my presentation. 55 00:04:56,639 --> 00:05:04,400 Um I I recommend approval of this. So in 56 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:10,320 front of you here is a a draft recommendation that includes a provision 57 00:05:07,280 --> 00:05:14,160 that um if they choose it says if they choose to install speed bumps that we 58 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:18,800 would want the fire marshall to review and approve the type of speed bumps, 59 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:23,680 their plan locations and the location and types of signs that indicate that 60 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:28,080 there are going to be speed bumps there. Again, we don't require that elsewhere 61 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:34,560 in the township, but it seems like since we have a shot at it, we might as well 62 00:05:30,639 --> 00:05:41,280 do some due diligence and require that. >> Thank you. Thanks. 63 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:46,479 » Um, I have a question for you. Uh, is there anything in the PUB that would 64 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:50,479 prevent stop signs being installed on private 65 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:55,840 drives? >> I I saw nothing to that effect. No. 66 00:05:53,039 --> 00:05:59,479 Anybody else have any other questions? 67 00:05:59,840 --> 00:06:07,199 » You can go ahead. >> Yeah, I have a question. Um, on page 68 00:06:03,840 --> 00:06:13,680 three of the staff report, it talks about um the collected wisdom indicates 69 00:06:10,479 --> 00:06:19,840 that speed bumps are effective. And you mentioned verbally kind of a summary. 70 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:24,479 I'm wondering if there's a specific that stands out. I mean there are a lot of 71 00:06:21,919 --> 00:06:28,639 studies out there. Um Federal Highway Administration has has at least one 72 00:06:27,039 --> 00:06:33,919 study out there that finds them to be effective. Um 73 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:37,919 sorry that I don't have the citation here but I can get that for you. 74 00:06:35,919 --> 00:06:43,120 » Then I had another question with respect to um the site circulation. Could you 75 00:06:41,280 --> 00:06:47,039 since we don't have it written could you please explain which users were supposed 76 00:06:45,280 --> 00:06:53,120 to consider? It's I think beyond vehicles. Is that correct? It it says um 77 00:06:49,919 --> 00:06:57,680 safety and convenience for ve vehicular and pedestrian traffic. 78 00:06:55,120 --> 00:07:04,240 » Okay. And what about things like bicycles, skateboards, scooters? That's 79 00:07:01,840 --> 00:07:08,880 » I would include that as vehicular. >> Okay. And what consideration was given 80 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:11,759 to those? >> Um how so? 81 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:17,199 » With respect to how the speed bumps might influence 82 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:22,639 other than vehicle use of the road, >> right? Um, well, without knowing exactly 83 00:07:20,479 --> 00:07:28,720 what types of speed bumps would be installed, I I'm not sure how how we 84 00:07:26,479 --> 00:07:33,120 we'd be able to evaluate that. And that's really not that's really not the 85 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:36,960 charge that we have before us tonight. It's just whether to strike this 86 00:07:34,479 --> 00:07:41,919 language or not. So, we're not trying to approve any specific design. Um because 87 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:46,080 I imagine you could install speed bumps that 88 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:51,280 don't go the entire width of the road. So it'd be easy to, you know, ride your 89 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:56,240 bike in between, you know, if you have two next to each other, um or ride a 90 00:07:54,000 --> 00:08:01,039 skateboard in between them. Um so there's ways there's ways to design 91 00:07:58,479 --> 00:08:06,240 things so that they're not uh going to affect people on bikes, people riding 92 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:10,600 skateboards, um and emergency vehicles, too. If you make them narrow enough and 93 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:13,759 they're not super tall, you can drive [clears throat] a fire truck right over 94 00:08:11,919 --> 00:08:18,460 that where it kind of straddles straddles it so they can go through um 95 00:08:16,319 --> 00:08:20,720 quickly. So [snorts] 96 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:24,720 » So I I know we're not approving speed bumps. Um but we are required to 97 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:28,120 consider all the users of the roadway. >> Yes. 98 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:28,120 » Okay. 99 00:08:28,319 --> 00:08:34,719 » Yeah. Thanks for your report. I had just a few 100 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:40,080 questions. So I saw that the applications from the watermark condo 101 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:45,279 association and I I didn't know. Do you know is that the sole association for 102 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:51,866 the entire PUD including the golf course and all the private roads in the PUD? 103 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:53,886 » I am not sure. [clears throat] 104 00:08:55,519 --> 00:09:04,160 » Yep. Um it looks like this was generated based on a speed stud. I mean, there's I 105 00:09:02,560 --> 00:09:08,800 think there's reference to it, a summary to it. Did you receive the speed study? 106 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:13,040 It's not in our materials. >> I I thought I included a few pages from 107 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:16,480 it. >> Okay. 108 00:09:13,519 --> 00:09:20,240 » Um but if I didn't, I apologize. It should be 109 00:09:18,399 --> 00:09:25,120 » and it it wasn't the I didn't include the full speed study. I included the 110 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:31,440 addendum that I'm not sure why they created an addendum back in 1990, but um 111 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:35,360 » Oh, no. I I meant like you know if what we're saying here is that like you know 112 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:38,000 I mean your first statement like speeding is an issue along Watermark 113 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:41,440 Drive >> right? 114 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:48,720 » Yes that is that is as as it has been conveyed to us there speeding seems to 115 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:54,320 be an issue. >> Um All right. Yeah. you know, and I know 116 00:09:51,839 --> 00:09:59,279 like you're saying, well, we don't prohibit speed bumps. So, like 117 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:04,560 I don't I I don't think in my neighborhood, for example, maybe there's 118 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:08,720 a restrictive covenant that says we don't allow speed bumps, but like we 119 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:13,920 do speed studies in my neighborhood every single like it seems like 120 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:17,600 constantly because people think people drive too fast in the neighborhood. 121 00:10:17,680 --> 00:10:23,360 If I wanted speed bumps in my neighborhood on a private on a public 122 00:10:21,279 --> 00:10:28,920 road, I mean, I have to go to the road commission, right? 123 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,920 » You would? Yeah. Okay. 124 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:33,320 » All right. 125 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:40,000 » Does anybody else good? >> I'm good. Does anybody else have any 126 00:10:37,680 --> 00:10:43,360 other questions for staff? >> I I do have several questions, but I 127 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:48,399 don't know if it's should be part of the schedule. All right, it's for staff. 128 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:53,200 » Yeah, I have uh you know some questions, but they're probably more into the 129 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:57,040 discussion space and it is what we're talking about right now, but there's a 130 00:10:54,720 --> 00:11:01,519 lot worth I see they want to have them where they're removable. 131 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:04,800 » Uh who's maintaining those, how they're going to be removed, what happens if 132 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:06,640 they break, you know, all those kind of things. 133 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:08,560 » Yeah, [snorts] that's discussion. >> Part of discussion. So, I'm shutting 134 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:12,480 down. >> No. Do you have anything for staff? I 135 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:16,320 mean, you have any you Okay, that Robert, this is a good question. 136 00:11:14,399 --> 00:11:21,920 Yeah. Okay. Thank you. >> Thanks. 137 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:25,839 » Okay. Um, so this is the portion we're going to 138 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:29,360 lay some ground rules real quick. Thank you for showing up. You don't usually 139 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:33,440 have this big of a crowd. So, thank you. Means a lot to us because most of the 140 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:39,200 time we're shooting in the dark. So, thank you. Um, in a minute here I'm 141 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:43,600 going to ask to open it up to public hearing. Um, [clears throat] 142 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:48,800 my voice chair said I should give you guys four minutes to talk, right? Um, 143 00:11:46,399 --> 00:11:53,279 please talk to the board. Don't talk to the audience and let everybody just kind 144 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:57,839 of don't try not to interrupt everybody. Keep it professional. All the good 145 00:11:55,120 --> 00:12:02,720 stuff, right? So, everybody go with that. When you come up, just state your 146 00:11:59,279 --> 00:12:07,600 name and address for the record. Okay. Um, you can do timer. That would be 147 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:14,079 great. Yes. So, I'm going to make a motion to go to public hearing. All 148 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:17,680 right. All those in favor say I. I. Any opposed? Okay. So, now we're open for 149 00:12:16,399 --> 00:12:20,959 public hearing. So, if you'd like to come up to the mic. Oh, no. Wait a 150 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:26,079 minute. We got to hear from the applicant first. So, I got a motion to 151 00:12:23,680 --> 00:12:28,800 close public hearing. >> This is my first. 152 00:12:27,279 --> 00:12:33,120 » Yeah. I got excited because all you guys were here. 153 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:37,040 » Uh motion to close public hearing. Do I have a second? 154 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:42,240 » Third. All right. All those in favor? I >> Okay. like to hear from the applicant. 155 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:46,480 Is the applicant here? That would be the president or the 156 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:51,120 » HOA. >> Yeah. 157 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:54,399 State your name and address for the record here. 158 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:56,720 » Michael Burark. >> Okay. Michael, you have more than four 159 00:12:56,079 --> 00:12:58,639 minutes >> because we're going to ask you 160 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,480 questions, too. >> Okay. 161 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:04,480 » Okay. >> Okay. Well, on the board's application 162 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:09,360 to revise water ordinance by removing the prohibition of 163 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:13,839 speeds. Uh this is based on the following. Our review of all the listed 164 00:13:11,519 --> 00:13:20,480 which you've mentioned as well uh all the listed PDS have no such prohibition. 165 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:24,320 So why would we uh fire department? We had our management company both consult 166 00:13:22,560 --> 00:13:29,240 with the township and the fire department to determine what speed 167 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:38,160 and those are the ones that uh we have if this motion is approved. 168 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:41,440 » And Can you Sorry. Can you push your button? So, can you push 169 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:44,160 » Is there a button on the mic >> on the mic? On the base of the mic. 170 00:13:43,279 --> 00:13:46,000 » Is it red? >> Yeah. 171 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:47,920 » Now it's green. There we go. >> Now we can hear you. 172 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:51,440 » Okay. >> No, you're good. 173 00:13:49,519 --> 00:13:58,240 » Uh it wasn't until the prohibition was discovered uh that the PUB was uh needed 174 00:13:54,639 --> 00:14:02,639 to make u application for this change. Our traffic is is varied. consist of 175 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:07,839 residents, families of residents, guests, contractors, delivery vehicles, 176 00:14:05,279 --> 00:14:13,360 and a lot of cut through traffic. Uh we had gates installed, I want to say 2005 177 00:14:10,639 --> 00:14:16,959 or so, and that cut down quite a bit of the cut through traffic, but it still 178 00:14:14,959 --> 00:14:21,440 exists because our gates are open in the morning and the evening for rush hour 179 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:25,920 traffic. Uh we have very limited control, if any. Uh we we send 180 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:31,600 communication to the uh residents about speeding. Uh their kids still speed. uh 181 00:14:29,519 --> 00:14:35,600 their guest speed. [snorts] Uh I have to tell my own daughter when she comes to 182 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:40,959 visit to slow down. It it's an ongoing problem. Uh as a board we mentioned uh 183 00:14:39,199 --> 00:14:44,320 spending virtually uh every communication 184 00:14:42,639 --> 00:14:48,079 uh we mentioned speeding and every communication to the residents and with 185 00:14:46,399 --> 00:14:53,839 all the children living in watermark speeding is an even bigger concern. Uh 186 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:58,079 this mention uh does not reach the others that contribute to the speeding 187 00:14:55,360 --> 00:15:01,839 problem. So, we feel that speed bumps are probably a way to address it for 188 00:15:00,079 --> 00:15:07,920 everybody that uh comes into our neighborhood. Uh we've had the uh uh 189 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:13,040 sheriff provide digital uh speed bump signs or uh speeding uh signs that I 190 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:16,720 think they put in the neighborhood for a week or two weeks and uh they really 191 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:22,720 weren't very effective. I mean people would uh golf carts would try and go 192 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:26,399 above the uh so they're there to make people aware that we have a speed limit 193 00:15:24,399 --> 00:15:31,839 but then there needs to be a conscious decision to obey the speed limit. Uh 194 00:15:29,519 --> 00:15:35,680 we've also periodically uh check speeds with speed checking devices and um one 195 00:15:34,079 --> 00:15:41,519 of my colleagues will come up with uh his findings on that. 196 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:46,639 Uh we've already uh had one uh flipped car accident on our roadways along with 197 00:15:44,079 --> 00:15:50,480 many near misses. Uh our important motivation for this is purely safety. 198 00:15:48,639 --> 00:15:55,040 The truth be I don't like speed bumps either, but we don't have any we haven't 199 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:58,880 come up with an alternative that uh is better than speed bumps. And the fact 200 00:15:57,279 --> 00:16:02,800 that they're removable, it gives us a chance to maybe change some behavior 201 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:06,560 when they come out for the winter. And then maybe, you know, we can make 202 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:11,519 decisions down the road whether they have to be reinstalled. 203 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:15,839 Um, basically our motivation is to keep our roadways as safe as possible for 204 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:20,320 everybody. And u, uh, you know, this isn't an old people subdivision. We have 205 00:16:17,759 --> 00:16:23,839 lots of children and they play in the street. They skateboard, they ride 206 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:27,839 bicycles. Sometimes they're careless, sometimes they're not. And we can't have 207 00:16:25,279 --> 00:16:34,959 a car going 35 miles an hour down Watermark Drive and not expect a a 208 00:16:31,199 --> 00:16:38,800 catastrophe to happen. If not now, when. So, we appreciate the opportunity to 209 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:41,600 speak in front of uh your commission and u thank you for considering our 210 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:44,720 application. >> Stay up here because we're we might have 211 00:16:43,199 --> 00:16:51,440 some questions for you since you're kind of the point person for 212 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:57,680 » um Yeah. So, the question a couple questions I have the speed study I um 213 00:16:55,920 --> 00:17:01,759 when was this conducted? What were the findings? How did you guys conduct this 214 00:16:59,759 --> 00:17:05,439 speed study? And maybe like some detail. >> Well, a fellow board member has that 215 00:17:03,519 --> 00:17:10,880 information. Great. >> Table that until he comes up. Okay. And 216 00:17:07,919 --> 00:17:17,240 then a side question for staff. Are police able to give speeding tickets on 217 00:17:13,919 --> 00:17:17,240 private roads? 218 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:21,720 » I don't know. But I don't think so. 219 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:33,520 » Okay. Anybody else? Have you guys looked at the I read in one of the the emails 220 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:37,600 that somebody suggested maybe stop signs. Has that been 221 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:42,640 thought or >> We thought about it, but uh it didn't 222 00:17:41,039 --> 00:17:47,840 you'd speed until you get to the stop sign. Uh for example, if you come in off 223 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:51,919 a small after you make the left turn, uh that's a perfect opportunity to get up 224 00:17:49,679 --> 00:17:57,360 to about 30 35 miles an hour. There's nowhere to put a stop sign there. 225 00:17:54,160 --> 00:18:03,520 » And uh on on the watermark uh part that goes towards Cascade, there might be a 226 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:08,320 point or two to do that, but um No, it hasn't been uh it's been discussed but 227 00:18:05,360 --> 00:18:11,039 not uh chosen as an alternative. >> What kind of resident feedback did you 228 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:14,240 guys get? Sorry. >> What kind of resident feedback did you 229 00:18:12,559 --> 00:18:19,480 guys get on the speed bumps? >> Uh some positive and uh some negative. 230 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:26,120 » May I ask? 231 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:36,720 » Uh it was close to our Spalding uh entrance or exit. when they went around 232 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:43,360 the corner uh on the straightaway uh lost control and smashed into a tree and 233 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:47,440 uh uh our resident take children out playing at the time. So it was a pretty 234 00:18:44,799 --> 00:18:52,400 scary situation. >> Is that at the south end of uh 235 00:18:50,559 --> 00:18:57,520 just before you get to Spalding? >> Yes. 236 00:18:53,039 --> 00:19:02,320 » Uhhuh. That's a pretty that's almost >> right. Thank you. 237 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:07,760 » Thanks. You might have heard my question for staff. I was just so you're here as 238 00:19:04,559 --> 00:19:14,720 a board member of Watermark Condo Association and so I is that the entire 239 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:18,640 association for everything in the PUD including the golf course and every 240 00:19:17,360 --> 00:19:23,600 private road or >> Okay, the golf course is totally 241 00:19:21,039 --> 00:19:29,360 separate within Watermark. We have three associations. Uh we have the Watermark 242 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:33,679 Condominium Association and uh I'm not sure the names of the other two, but 243 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:40,000 they uh uh represent the other two types of housing, the uh club homes and the 244 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:46,320 estate homes. Uh we as a as a board have a joint board meeting where officers 245 00:19:42,799 --> 00:19:54,880 from those boards attend and we voted as a joint board to uh enact this proposal. 246 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:59,440 uh our board controls I think 56 or 57% of the votes but it wasn't right for us 247 00:19:57,120 --> 00:20:04,640 to rammer it through. We brought all the other the other two boards in. We 248 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:08,240 discussed it and then had a vote that um brought us here today. 249 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:14,320 » All right. Well, yeah, I appreciate that clarification. The certificate of the 250 00:20:11,120 --> 00:20:19,623 secretary authorizing the application doesn't seem to reflect what you just 251 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:24,640 described to me at all. Um, [clears throat] 252 00:20:21,120 --> 00:20:28,120 so kind of fundamentally I'll have a little bit of a problem. 253 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:35,440 » And so, so this was a joint board meeting that where you issued this 254 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:37,600 authorization to file the application, >> correct? 255 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:41,760 » Okay. Um, and >> well, no, let me clarify that. It was a 256 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:47,600 joint board meeting to authorize the use of speed bumps. we were ready to install 257 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:53,840 them and it was determined that this prohibition uh was in our PUB. So, the 258 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:57,840 plan to install them was put on hold and we learned in order to make that happen, 259 00:20:55,520 --> 00:21:04,840 we had to file an amendment. I don't know if this is a fair question for you 260 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:04,840 or not, but um like do you 261 00:21:05,679 --> 00:21:12,080 what's your understanding of what the threshold would be for you to install 262 00:21:10,559 --> 00:21:19,360 speed bumps in your neighborhood in terms of approval by residents? 263 00:21:17,679 --> 00:21:22,559 » I'm not aware that there needs to be an approval. 264 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:26,320 » Just the board can unilaterally do it. >> We're elected to make these types of 265 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:30,799 decisions. I mean people have their opinions and we certainly will take them 266 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:36,720 into consideration but somebody has to make the decisions. 267 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:42,240 » I understand. >> All right. I don't mean 268 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:46,240 » that actually clarified what I was wondering as far as what the next steps 269 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:53,000 would be if we remove this language. You know go to a vote with the whole all of 270 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:53,000 the residents just the board. 271 00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:02,559 throughout Watermark. Um, are there pathways or sidewalks for non-vehicle 272 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:06,400 use throughout? >> Sidewalks all the way from Cascade to 273 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:11,200 Swalling. >> Okay. And those can be used by bicycles, 274 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:15,760 scooters. Are there? >> Yeah. Like we would expect adults to 275 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:19,880 ride the bikes in the street, but uh the kids are probably on the sidewalks. 276 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:31,679 Okay. >> Okay. 277 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:38,240 » All right. >> Okay. Can we speak to the uh board 278 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:41,440 member that has the uh speeds data? >> Sure. 279 00:22:38,799 --> 00:22:44,679 » Please. Thank you. >> Thank you. 280 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:53,840 » Good evening. Cory Kefir 2202 watermark drive. 281 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:57,919 » So tell us about the I mean do you have any opening statements that you want to 282 00:22:55,760 --> 00:23:02,480 » um No, I'm pretty much the data guy here. A little background. So the car 283 00:22:59,919 --> 00:23:06,720 that flipped it was outside my home. So that kind of brought to light. Uh this 284 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:10,240 happened a couple years ago. We currently have a six and a half, four 285 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:14,159 and a half to 2-year-old. So we're busy. They play in the yard, things like that. 286 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:17,679 So when this happened is more or less when I really started to pay attention 287 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:20,960 and you can kind of eyeball it. I think people have brought up here today like 288 00:23:19,120 --> 00:23:24,320 they look like they're speeding and everything like that. So I just went 289 00:23:22,159 --> 00:23:31,120 online and and bought a Bushnell radar for 120 bucks on Amazon and sit in my 290 00:23:27,120 --> 00:23:34,799 driveway and [snorts] people basically. >> So that's what I do. Sometimes my kids 291 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:38,960 join in the elevator and slow down. Sometimes 292 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:44,159 » So you're the speed. >> Yeah. Uh I do have the data here. So I 293 00:23:41,360 --> 00:23:49,600 pulled 50 from May and June of this year. So our average is exactly 28 and a 294 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:57,200 half. Our max is 52 as mentioned. Our men was 14. Uh 18% of the 50 studies 295 00:23:53,440 --> 00:24:03,840 were between 18 and 24 miles hour. 64% or 32 of the 50 were between 25 and 34 296 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:10,640 miles hour. And then 16% or eight were 35 plus miles per hour. 297 00:24:07,679 --> 00:24:16,320 » That's 50 over what? over >> uh I would say six to seven random days 298 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:20,320 of the week. I do have to admit I try on Saturdays. That's when there's heavy 299 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:23,679 traffic, but we're busy. Uh I also have copies if anyone wants I have five 300 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:28,840 copies of this with the pictures or anything else you might like as a 301 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,840 reference point. 302 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:34,919 » Okay. Does anybody else have any other questions? 303 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:42,320 » All right. Thank you. >> Thanks. Appreciate it. 304 00:24:40,159 --> 00:24:46,159 Okay. Now, I'm going to make a motion to go to public hearing. Second. 305 00:24:44,559 --> 00:24:53,720 » All those in favor? >> I. Any opposed? Okay. Now, you get the 306 00:24:49,919 --> 00:24:53,720 opportunity to come up. 307 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:59,480 » Is the applicant done? 308 00:25:02,559 --> 00:25:11,360 » John Socker, 1763, Water Drive. I lived there for 23 years. I was unaware of a 309 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:15,919 speech study being done and I was not given notice that this was going to be a 310 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:20,799 subject of a board meeting and we don't see the problem. We talk that every day 311 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:24,640 and we do not see the problem or the need for speed bumps. First of all, the 312 00:25:23,120 --> 00:25:31,120 speed limit of 18 miles hour is arbitrary and it does not comply with 313 00:25:28,159 --> 00:25:37,440 statute in Michigan statute is by the legislature section 257.627. 314 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:41,760 The statuto speed limit in a residential neighborhood is 25 miles an hour and 315 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:46,720 according to that statute the speed limit can only be changed by an agency 316 00:25:44,159 --> 00:25:52,960 with authority to change that. So uh the statute applies the speed limit is 25 317 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:58,960 miles an hour. Second of all the statute the Michigan manual on uniform traffic 318 00:25:55,440 --> 00:26:04,159 control devices says that speed limits must be the signs must comply with very 319 00:26:01,919 --> 00:26:07,600 specific standards. There are no such signs in watermark. There's no 320 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:12,960 indication of what the speed limit is. There's a little looks like a golf cart 321 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:18,320 sign like that, but that does not comply with the standards at all. Absent a 322 00:26:15,360 --> 00:26:24,320 posted speed limit. To the contrary, the default speed limit is the statutory 323 00:26:20,159 --> 00:26:28,400 limit of 25 miles per hour. Um, 324 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:32,480 now about speed pumps as a solution. According to the National Association of 325 00:26:30,159 --> 00:26:37,919 City Transportation Officials, speed modes should be no more than 500 ft 326 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:43,120 apart to get to achieve an 85 percentile speed of 25 to 35 mph. The Federal 327 00:26:41,360 --> 00:26:48,480 Highway Administration recommends that speed pump must be between 250 and 500 328 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:54,559 ft apart to achieve an 85 percentile speed of 25 to 35 miles hour. We're 329 00:26:52,000 --> 00:27:00,400 already within that limit at 29 miles per hour and even lower in most case. If 330 00:26:57,919 --> 00:27:07,279 the speed study is to be taken as having you know incredible um so watermark 331 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:13,679 drive is 5200 feet long we would need 10 speed bumps in order to achieve the 85% 332 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:18,640 compliance with a 25 to 35 mph speed limit. That's an excessive number of 333 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:23,679 speed bumps. Having a small amount is not going to achieve the effect we want. 334 00:27:20,559 --> 00:27:29,279 And we're already in mostly compliance with the speed limit targets if the 335 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:36,640 average speed is in fact 8.5 miles hour is completely unwarranted. Um, also the 336 00:27:33,120 --> 00:27:40,960 Federal Highway uh administration talks about in their study the effect on 337 00:27:38,799 --> 00:27:46,320 emergency vehicles and especially ambulances and it indicated that 338 00:27:43,679 --> 00:27:53,679 ambulance response time can be reduced by as much as 10% per speed. It also 339 00:27:49,919 --> 00:27:57,520 reduces police and it also reduces fire. especially ambulances though when 340 00:27:55,279 --> 00:28:00,720 there's somebody inside the ambulance it slows down the amount of time it takes 341 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:08,320 them to get out to bring people away so there is in fact a safety issue um at 342 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:13,120 cause here um and I'd just like to point out that this was done without input 343 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:17,600 from the residents we were not consulted we were not asked for our feedback we 344 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:22,880 found about about this when we read the announcement that the board had already 345 00:28:19,360 --> 00:28:27,200 made this decision so we would like to see a chance for us to have some 346 00:28:24,799 --> 00:28:30,080 deliberation amongst ourselves and to figure out what we want to do as 347 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:34,799 association which I know can still happen but the board's already decided 348 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:39,919 to do the speed bumps. So if this board takes the prohibition away, we will have 349 00:28:37,279 --> 00:28:44,240 speed bumps. And it's just unfortunate that our residents be put at risk in 350 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:48,320 terms of response time from emergency vehicles without proper input from 351 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:53,399 residents. You have any questions or I have copies 352 00:28:49,919 --> 00:28:53,399 of some of the studies. 353 00:28:54,880 --> 00:29:02,960 » You mentioned the 25 mile per hour speed limit and um signs. 354 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,840 Yeah. >> Yeah. 355 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:08,880 » Are you recommending that that be considered? It seemed like you were 356 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:13,919 alluding to that. >> I have recommended it at board meetings 357 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:19,279 in the past and that was not followed. Also, it is required by statute that 358 00:29:16,559 --> 00:29:22,720 speed bumps be identified by a sign. So, if they're going to put speed bumps in, 359 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:28,240 they need to add a sign that says there's a speed bump there and it needs 360 00:29:24,799 --> 00:29:35,559 to comply with these these standards. It can't be another hand painted wooden 361 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,559 design for golfarts. 362 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:43,520 » Yeah, I just have an easy one. I think >> I'm not supposed to be asking questions. 363 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:48,960 » We can. >> Okay. Because, you know, he's got the 364 00:29:45,679 --> 00:29:53,279 study, but I was just curious um he brought up that this HOA is the ones who 365 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:58,799 brought up the idea of putting speed bumps in and that's why we're here. 366 00:29:55,760 --> 00:30:04,000 Uh, is it true that it no notice went out to all the residents that this was 367 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:09,200 going to happen before it became this point? 368 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:12,960 » I do not see any notice at all. >> I want to say we're very grateful to our 369 00:30:11,279 --> 00:30:16,880 board. They do an excellent job and we really do appreciate their efforts. We 370 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:20,480 just disagree with them on this one particular point. So, we don't have a 371 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:26,559 dissatisfaction with our board in general, but 372 00:30:21,919 --> 00:30:26,559 » we really rather not see All 373 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,919 right. Thank you. 374 00:30:35,039 --> 00:30:46,000 » Uh Cynthia Aendulus and 5361 Prairie Home Drive. Um Watermark is a very 375 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:50,640 unusual community because we have three associations 376 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:54,080 that all reside within the development. I have been on the board of my 377 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:59,919 association uh pretty much every year except for two 378 00:30:56,399 --> 00:31:04,720 and that's been over 20 years. Uh when I moved into the neighborhood, most of the 379 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:11,360 back end of the property was not there. Phase three was never done. Uh the 380 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:16,480 property today is extremely different. We have children where we never had 381 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:21,840 children. We have families. We have elderly people. Um I think what's 382 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:27,679 interesting is is um people want to talk about the speed bumps, but really what 383 00:31:24,399 --> 00:31:32,720 we're asking for is literally just the lifting of that prohibition so that the 384 00:31:29,919 --> 00:31:38,640 organizations within the community can come together. Um it is um it is a 385 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:45,679 mistake to say the residents were not notified. Um the boards were all 386 00:31:41,679 --> 00:31:50,320 notified. We notified our residents. I can tell you that often what we find is 387 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:55,279 even though we have communicated with our residents. They maybe weren't paying 388 00:31:52,880 --> 00:32:02,480 attention, but this is something that has been discussed and residents were 389 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:07,519 told about this and if they had issues, they were supposed to go to their boards 390 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:12,399 and then those boards come together with the joint board who have to make 391 00:32:09,279 --> 00:32:17,600 decisions. We do have stop signs within the neighborhood. There are stop signs 392 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:21,440 throughout the neighborhood. I am on the corner of Watermark Drive and Prairie 393 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:27,840 Home Drive. There is a stop sign there. No one stops. So, unfortunately, 394 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:33,840 that's why this idea of putting stop signs in was considered, but it hasn't 395 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:40,399 been effective with the ones that are there. Um, I I think it is most of us 396 00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:44,880 understand that we who loves speed bumps? No one does. But when I sit and 397 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:50,640 look out on my front yard, I mean, literally crossing to my neighbors, 398 00:32:47,919 --> 00:32:57,919 there are people going 45 miles an hour constantly. And it's not just them, it's 399 00:32:53,760 --> 00:33:04,320 also delivery trucks, it's contractors. Um I I think and and you have children 400 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:12,159 who are driving, you know, golf carts around, too. Um sometimes these are like 401 00:33:07,519 --> 00:33:16,880 14, 15, 16 year old kids. So there is a there is a safety issue. Um and whether 402 00:33:15,279 --> 00:33:22,159 we like it or not, it's not a question of if, it's a question of when we are 403 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:29,039 going to have another tragedy like the flipping over of the cars. I guess my my 404 00:33:25,919 --> 00:33:35,200 question to all of you is is given what your charge is whether or not it's you 405 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:40,399 we're not asking you to decide speed bumps not speed bumps what we're asking 406 00:33:37,519 --> 00:33:46,480 for something fairly simple which is taking away that prohibition so that the 407 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:50,080 associations can if they feel like they have to have more discussion we 408 00:33:48,159 --> 00:33:54,480 certainly should do that but I think we should do that as a neighborhood. 409 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:58,360 Okay. and thank you for your time. We appreciate it. 410 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,360 » Thank you. 411 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:06,240 » Although I love you guys raising your hand. You don't have to do that. You can 412 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:10,560 just come on out. That's fine. >> School. 413 00:34:07,519 --> 00:34:17,200 » Uh Lori Boss. I live at 1825 Watermark Drive. I have lived there since 2007. 414 00:34:13,919 --> 00:34:22,000 Um raised my kids there. Um, my husband Daniel and I both oppose the speed bump 415 00:34:19,839 --> 00:34:27,119 or the rem I should say the removal of the prohibition from the amendment. Um, 416 00:34:24,879 --> 00:34:32,800 if you've been on Watermark Drive, first of all, I run, I walk, I bike there 417 00:34:29,919 --> 00:34:38,079 every single day. You'll see me out there every morning doing one of those 418 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:43,119 three things. And I have never ever felt unsafe on that street. Not once. The 419 00:34:41,119 --> 00:34:49,040 street um, since I've lived there has now have gates. The gates are closed 420 00:34:45,919 --> 00:34:53,760 most of the day. The gates are opened in the morning for the bus and in the late 421 00:34:51,119 --> 00:34:58,960 afternoon for the bus and as understand it on Sundays for open houses in the 422 00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:04,240 afternoon. So most of the time through traffic is cut out. The street is 423 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:08,480 narrow. So anytime somebody has a guest or a contractor, they're parking on the 424 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:12,079 streets. We try to get, you know, tell your people guests to stay on one side 425 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:17,040 of the street. They don't. There's a lot of negotiation. It slows down traffic 426 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:20,160 from people trying to get through 427 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:25,200 automatically because the street is so narrow. And I'm thinking, why was this 428 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:32,160 prohibition put in place? Watermark's unique community. It's large. 429 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:36,800 There's four to five curves along that stretch. I live 430 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:40,640 probably 3/4 of a mile from the Spalding Gate. I'd say between there and my house 431 00:35:39,119 --> 00:35:44,400 there's probably four curves of which I'm not great with math but probably 432 00:35:42,240 --> 00:35:49,200 around 90 degrees that automatically slows traffic down. We have a golf 433 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:56,240 course there. When they talk about 98 other PUDs in this township don't have 434 00:35:53,599 --> 00:36:01,040 that prohibition. Has anybody looked? Is there another one with a golf course? We 435 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:07,359 have standalone condominiums. We have apartment style buildings. So it's 436 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:14,079 unique. The golf course has uses it. So there's golf course workers, maintenance 437 00:36:09,599 --> 00:36:17,119 workers, golf course people using because we don't have just sidewalks. We 438 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:20,800 also have cart paths going through the neighborhood. So I don't know if any of 439 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:26,960 you have been there, but it's both. And as I understand the PUB also includes 440 00:36:23,359 --> 00:36:31,680 the golf course. So I don't know why or I didn't see their name on the list of 441 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:34,400 um addresses that were informed of this amendment. So, I don't know if the golf 442 00:36:33,119 --> 00:36:36,880 course had a chance to speak because they have a lot of expensive equipment 443 00:36:35,839 --> 00:36:44,640 going through that neighborhood that they use on a daily basis. Um, I was 444 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:47,920 aware that in uh 2022 the car flipped. No one knows why the car flipped. Maybe 445 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:52,960 she hit the gas instead of the brake. Who knows? Um, but for one incident 446 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:58,400 since I've been there, which is like going on close to 17 years, 447 00:36:56,000 --> 00:37:02,720 we're going to change this amendment. When this slows down, as we've 448 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:06,880 discussed, emergency vehicles. So, what's more likely to happen on 449 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:12,320 Watermark Drive, there's cardiac arrests, strokes, accidents. We've had 450 00:37:09,359 --> 00:37:15,520 painters fall off ladders. I myself was over at a neighbor's house. There was a 451 00:37:13,839 --> 00:37:20,400 life-threatening incident. We had to call an ambulance. Those are the most 452 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:27,680 likely things to happen. Not accidents. There's been one. So I think that um 453 00:37:26,240 --> 00:37:31,520 you know there should be cons some consideration for what actually how the 454 00:37:29,119 --> 00:37:38,000 street is used and how emergency vehicles and not just fire trucks but 455 00:37:34,240 --> 00:37:42,400 EMS needs to respond. I did not hear about the 456 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:47,200 speed bumps. I was not informed. I read all the emails information that is sent 457 00:37:44,240 --> 00:37:52,000 to me. There was um information that was sent to us about speed bumps that were 458 00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:56,720 going to be put in installed. We so we got a note I think on an email on Friday 459 00:37:54,160 --> 00:38:00,720 evening. I knew because I've read the PUD ordinance that they're not allowed. 460 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:07,680 So I did contact the township by Monday morning and that was uh stopped and then 461 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:12,640 we then received this information that they want to um 462 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:18,480 install the speed bumps and change the the ordinance. So, I had a lot of 463 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:22,000 questions, but um some of them and I wrote a note that was submitted and I 464 00:38:20,720 --> 00:38:25,599 don't want to read the whole entire thing because I know you guys can read 465 00:38:23,359 --> 00:38:29,839 yourselves, but did the golf course receive notifications of this amendment 466 00:38:27,599 --> 00:38:35,520 since they use the property and the and the roads? Where is an engineering study 467 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:39,359 of traffic patterns and concerns? Um, I agree with some of the comments that 468 00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:44,880 were made that an average speed in a residential neighborhood is 25 if most 469 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:49,680 people are going 25 to 28 miles an hour. I think that most people are in 470 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:53,520 compliance with that sort of speed um limitation. 471 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:58,400 And then I know this board is only responsible for allowing the POD to be 472 00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:02,720 amended, but if that's amended, that opens the door wide open. So, how what 473 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:06,000 size, what type, how many, where will they be placed? What are the abatement 474 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:10,480 procedures for noise in the areas? Who will install and remove them? What costs 475 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:12,000 are associated with damage? >> Sorry. 476 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:12,720 » Okay. Thank you. >> Yeah. 477 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:15,760 » Sorry. >> No, that's good. Thank you. 478 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:17,920 » Any questions? >> May questions. No. 479 00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:21,160 » Okay. >> Thank you. 480 00:39:24,720 --> 00:39:31,839 » Hello, John Kendall. Uh 2201 Watermark Drive. So, I am the first house when you 481 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:37,920 go back office of Spalding, been there 23 years. Um, the the per the accident 482 00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:44,160 in question was a person that lived there. Uh, she was in the condos, so she 483 00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:50,079 was going fast like a lot of people do. I don't have young kids anymore. I did 484 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:53,760 um originally when uh I was at the forefront to get the gates in. Um, I 485 00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:57,440 know people keep talking about the emergency vehicles, but we have gates, 486 00:39:55,760 --> 00:40:01,280 so they're going to have to stop at the gates anyway. And of course, which 487 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:05,599 somebody had said, um, I think you had said earlier when you have you can place 488 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:10,079 them so the, you know, the vehicles can get through. Again, we're just asking 489 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:14,320 for you guys to get rid of that so we can do it as a um, you know, as a 490 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:19,920 community and I think we can vote on it. So that's all we're doing. But if I am 491 00:40:16,720 --> 00:40:23,599 at the I hear that people revving their engines all the time there. I'm like 492 00:40:22,079 --> 00:40:28,400 right there in the front right across from Corey. If people haven't seen 493 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:31,359 people speed there, I I think I don't know what they're listening looking at 494 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:35,920 or anything like that, but that's all we would I would ask is if you can let us 495 00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:39,079 decide it as a group. Thank you. >> Thank you. 496 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:56,079 » Sharon Stadler. I live at 1901 Watermark Drive. lived there 20 years. Um, raised 497 00:40:53,280 --> 00:41:02,079 my kids there. They they made it through all fine. Um, I wanted to talk about the 498 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:07,440 PUD part of it. Um, I wanted to acknowledge the fact that I believe ours 499 00:41:04,319 --> 00:41:12,319 is the only PUD that includes a golf course and private roads. There is 500 00:41:10,240 --> 00:41:17,119 another PUD that it does have a golf course, but it's public roads and five 501 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:24,240 houses. So, it's quite unique in that way. And um to change a PUD just because 502 00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:29,040 of unique language seems a bit ridiculous to me because there are many 503 00:41:26,720 --> 00:41:35,520 PUDs there. There's one tall pines across the street. They have things 504 00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:40,240 about farm use and land use for farms and we don't have that. So do they have 505 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:46,480 to get rid of that because of that language being in there? Doesn't that 506 00:41:43,359 --> 00:41:51,599 part didn't make sense to me? Um, I have a question for you. I understand 507 00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:57,040 with the new zoning laws that have gone into effect that if we do amend our PUD, 508 00:41:55,280 --> 00:42:02,480 we will have to make sure our neighborhood is compliant with the new 509 00:41:59,839 --> 00:42:07,480 zoning. And I wanted to know if that would mean we would have to make any 510 00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:07,480 other changes. 511 00:42:07,839 --> 00:42:12,800 » Do you want to answer that? That's a good question. 512 00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:21,280 » Yeah. So, uh, the new zoning doesn't affect existing PUDs. So, a PUD is like, 513 00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:28,480 sorry, this is very okay. Um, a PUD is essentially a your own bespoke zoning 514 00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:31,920 ordinance for a given area. So, the PUD here is your zoning. 515 00:42:30,079 --> 00:42:37,359 » Okay. I thought when I read the new zoning laws, it said that the PUDS would 516 00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:44,480 would stay in effect, but if there was an amendment made to it, then the entire 517 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:48,560 neighborhood had to be put it the PUD would remain in effect, but the 518 00:42:46,240 --> 00:42:53,440 neighborhood had to be compliant to the current zoning. 519 00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:58,560 » Didn't doesn't it application too? They their application was received prior to 520 00:42:55,599 --> 00:43:04,480 the new zoning. Um, I'm not sure if that has any effect and I'm I'm not 521 00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:09,839 sure what what language you're talking about um in the new zoning ordinance. 522 00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:11,864 » I don't remember that either. >> Yeah, 523 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:15,280 » that's a good question. We did. [laughter] 524 00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:19,119 » Yeah. And that was when I was trying to figure out the whole vote thing. 525 00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:23,520 » Any new development would fall under the new zoning rules. Any of the current 526 00:43:21,359 --> 00:43:27,920 development falls under the existing PUDS. There could still be changes made 527 00:43:26,079 --> 00:43:32,480 to those existing PUDS, but if you're going for a whole new development, then 528 00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:36,720 it would fall under the new zoning. That's my 529 00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:39,520 » Can you ask Nick if our >> Nick is our attorney on Okay. 530 00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:44,200 » Okay. >> We'll get back to Okay. 531 00:43:40,720 --> 00:43:44,200 » Yeah. Thank you. 532 00:43:44,720 --> 00:43:49,000 » I'd have to have 533 00:43:49,440 --> 00:44:03,119 » Hi, Heidi Herbrook 5380 T17 Court. Um, we are new to the neighborhood 534 00:43:57,119 --> 00:44:10,800 and um, I keep up on what is sent to us from the board. We had no idea as I 535 00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:17,920 don't remember her name, but as she stated that we got an email and I have 536 00:44:13,599 --> 00:44:23,920 it in my hand right here. Um, and it was sent on a Friday informing us that 537 00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:30,319 Monday they were putting in the speed bumps. 538 00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:34,560 And if they had let us know, I'm sure more than just one person would have 539 00:44:32,720 --> 00:44:42,079 been calling the township to let you know. So, um, 540 00:44:39,839 --> 00:44:50,160 just feel like they were trying to pull one over our eyes. So, just wanted to 541 00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:55,359 let you know that. So, if in fact you do pass this, we will get speed bumps 542 00:44:53,359 --> 00:45:01,760 because if they don't have to come to us as residents, then it's going to be 543 00:44:58,079 --> 00:45:05,920 done. So, and there will be a lot of people that are not happy that are 544 00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:10,560 living there. I'm afraid that our property values will go down, too. So, 545 00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:13,880 okay. Thanks. >> Thank you. 546 00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:31,680 Leo Ditch Creek, 1712 Watermark Drive. Um, and addressed this uh commission 547 00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:36,960 here on the issue of speed bumps. Uh, we had every intent I'm a a board member as 548 00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:43,200 well of installing speed bumps for calming these speeds down. We consulted, 549 00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:47,359 we've been working with the township, uh, also working with the fire 550 00:45:44,720 --> 00:45:52,560 department on getting speed bumps installed. The township fire department, 551 00:45:49,839 --> 00:45:56,960 as you may know, already has guidelines out there for speed humps. Uh, and we 552 00:45:55,440 --> 00:46:00,800 had communicated with the fire chief, at least our management company did, about 553 00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:06,800 installation of that, getting the specific size, and we had some uh 554 00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:11,040 already uh bumps already picked out. Uh the fire chief, as a matter of fact, uh 555 00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:16,240 approved those uh as well as the township. It was unfortunate. We did not 556 00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:21,920 realize that the PUD had a prohibition on speed bumps. The only PUD and 557 00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:26,000 township that we know of that has that prohibition. And that's what stopped the 558 00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:30,560 whole thing. When we found that out, that's when we had to put a stop to the 559 00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:34,480 planning of installing the speed bumps and uh um go back to the drawing board 560 00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:40,000 of getting this amenity and get that prohibition to be removed. We have seen 561 00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:44,240 in a lot of cases, I think you saw the case with the flip vehicle and yes, that 562 00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:50,000 was one incident. I personally have seen issues where cars were be speeding 563 00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:53,359 along. I myself driving along Watermark Drive will notice a ball coming out into 564 00:46:51,839 --> 00:46:59,119 the street and here's a 5-year-old running after the ball. If I wasn't 565 00:46:55,599 --> 00:47:04,560 going 18 miles an hour, it would be a very different story. 566 00:47:02,720 --> 00:47:09,440 So again, from our perspective, from the board's perspective, we're interested in 567 00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:14,240 safety. Uh again, you're going to have a lot of people. I personally do not have 568 00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:21,280 any children. Um, yeah. And I personally probably don't like speed bumps, but I 569 00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:25,920 will tolerate them if if it protects my neighbors kids and everybody else in the 570 00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:28,720 neighborhood. Thank you. >> I do have a question for you. You're 571 00:47:27,599 --> 00:47:33,440 you're a board member. >> Yes. Um, 572 00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:39,040 how many times did you guys reach out to the other people in the um in the 573 00:47:37,359 --> 00:47:40,720 development to let them know that you were going to be having a discussion 574 00:47:40,319 --> 00:47:46,400 about >> I think we've been talking about it in 575 00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:50,560 and not only in our annual meetings. Um, we haven't taken a survey as you 576 00:47:48,319 --> 00:47:55,359 probably are aware. If we do that, we're going to get 50% in favor and 50% 577 00:47:53,040 --> 00:48:00,240 against. And again, we're looking at strictly from not a uh popularity 578 00:47:58,079 --> 00:48:04,560 viewpoint, but more of a safety issue within our organ within our uh 579 00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:08,000 neighborhood. Um safety to us is probably the most important thing. 580 00:48:06,240 --> 00:48:12,640 Trying everything we can from electronic signs 581 00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:16,720 um just hasn't been effective and we think that this is the next, as somebody 582 00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:20,960 pointed out, is the next effective and efficient way we can possibly calm the 583 00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:25,319 speeds down a little bit within our neighborhood. 584 00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:25,319 » Okay. Becky. 585 00:48:26,268 --> 00:48:28,288 [clears throat] 586 00:48:30,559 --> 00:48:40,800 » Good evening. My name is Gerard Hickeyi, 2019 Craftsman Court. Um, just as a 587 00:48:39,119 --> 00:48:46,640 point of information, I am a board member of the Watermark Club Homes. 588 00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:50,640 Um, I'm here just to address what you're supposed to be charged with tonight, and 589 00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:58,240 that is whether or not we can remove that language from the PUD. 590 00:48:53,760 --> 00:49:02,000 Um, it's part of the CCNR language that everybody buys into when they bought 591 00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:09,760 into watermark. And for you to be able to just delete 592 00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:17,760 that is something it's not up to you. we are owners of 593 00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:22,720 that property and we are ab we have to abide by the rules and regulations that 594 00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:28,160 we accepted as being a member there. So my proposal would be is that this would 595 00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:34,480 have to be presented to the whole uh membership for a discussion whether or 596 00:49:32,079 --> 00:49:38,960 not we want to remove this phrase from the CCNRs. 597 00:49:36,559 --> 00:49:43,200 I understand that if it is removed that the board can do whatever they want, but 598 00:49:41,359 --> 00:49:47,040 the point is and the point I think that you're charged with tonight is whether 599 00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:52,000 or not we should be able to eliminate that from the CCNRs. And I don't think 600 00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:57,920 that that should be done without the membership's consultation and a vote 601 00:49:56,240 --> 00:50:04,559 as they would if they wanted to change anything else in the CCRs. And if you 602 00:50:00,559 --> 00:50:09,359 look, I think it's about a 60% uh approval rate if they want to change 603 00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:14,800 something major in the CCNRs. And if this is a part of it, I think that they 604 00:50:11,119 --> 00:50:20,480 would be subject to it. So my point is that yes, we can talk all we want about 605 00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:25,200 putting in speed bumps, but whether or not what you are charged with tonight is 606 00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:30,599 something that should be approved, that's where I'll leave it. Thank you. 607 00:50:27,359 --> 00:50:30,599 » Thank you. 608 00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:50,880 Good evening. I'm Alex Dianer. I live at 1820 Watermark and I'm also on the 609 00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:55,440 board. And I just want to emphasize to me the issue before you is whether we 610 00:50:53,599 --> 00:50:59,520 have this provision or not in the ordinance. 611 00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:04,319 I've been on the board off and on for six years. 612 00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:08,400 The pros and cons are all over the map. You are like at a meeting that we would 613 00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:14,000 have, but that's not what you're being asked to do. You're not being asked to 614 00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:21,119 take our role. Our role as a board is to use our fiduciary duty and do what we 615 00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:26,240 think is best for the development. What if 100% of the people wanted to 616 00:51:23,599 --> 00:51:32,480 have speed bumps? We couldn't do it with this resol with this uh prohibition in 617 00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:38,400 our ordinance. So the issue is give it back to the community. There's been some 618 00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:44,000 criticism of us. I understand that. I I don't agree with it all. But we're not 619 00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:50,160 permanent members of that organization. They can vote and have a different board 620 00:51:45,599 --> 00:51:54,400 in. By the way, the or the the speed bumps we're talking about can be taken 621 00:51:52,319 --> 00:51:58,640 out and put back in. And if a new board comes in and they want it, then fine. 622 00:51:56,079 --> 00:52:03,920 Then the owners have spoken. So far, they've spoken. They've elected 623 00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:08,319 us. And we've decided it's best on our view for the good of all the 624 00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:13,839 organizations in there, all the associations to have speed bumps. Let's 625 00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:18,640 try it. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. We'll take them out. 626 00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:23,359 All we're asking you is get rid of the prohibition and allow the community then 627 00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:25,359 to go forward and decide what it wants to do. 628 00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:28,599 » Thank you. >> Thank you. 629 00:52:38,559 --> 00:52:43,599 » Hi there. John Clark, 940 Monroe. I don't live in Cascade Township. Can I 630 00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:46,480 still talk? >> Sure. 631 00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:50,160 » All right. I'd love it. So I'm uh I own a Quesacia group and we manage all three 632 00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:54,559 of the condo associations in the development and we manage a bunch other 633 00:52:51,839 --> 00:52:59,359 in Cascade Township, Ada Township, Grand Rapids Township and in our profession we 634 00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:04,480 get two complaints and it's speeding in our neighborhoods and it's leaving trash 635 00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:10,240 cans out. That's and dog waste. So we have three that's what I deal with every 636 00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:15,440 day. So speeding is is the big one and um in all of our associations we've 637 00:53:12,079 --> 00:53:19,119 tried lots of things. cameras, speed bumps, 638 00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:24,000 um shaming people on Facebook, which is a lot of fun. That that gets ugly real 639 00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:28,240 fast. Um the boards have talked about cameras for years. Cameras are like 10 640 00:53:26,079 --> 00:53:32,880 to 20 grand and then somebody's got to monitor them. Um and then the board 641 00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:38,480 doesn't have the ability to like find anybody with a ticket for speeding. Um 642 00:53:35,599 --> 00:53:43,040 so really from a management standpoint, speed bumps we found have been really 643 00:53:40,559 --> 00:53:47,040 good. We put them in Cascade Lakes. We put them in Cascade Point. Um, there was 644 00:53:45,599 --> 00:53:50,240 a question about, well, what happens when they break? You know, who's going 645 00:53:48,319 --> 00:53:54,000 to put them in? Well, us as the management company, we put them in. If 646 00:53:52,319 --> 00:53:59,119 they break, the association knows that they own that asset, so they replace it 647 00:53:56,319 --> 00:54:04,240 on their dime. Um, and to a couple other board members points, if they don't work 648 00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:07,119 out, they're removable. And when we take them out in the winter, which they do 649 00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:11,359 get taken out every winter so the roads can be plowed, we use a coaul adhesive 650 00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:15,599 that we fill the holes with so it doesn't deteriorate the road. Um, our 651 00:54:13,839 --> 00:54:21,119 company stores them for free on behalf of the association. Um, so I think it's 652 00:54:18,319 --> 00:54:25,520 a really good idea to allow speed bumps. Um, at the very least try them, see if 653 00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:28,800 it works. The positions might not be the best. There might need to be less. There 654 00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:33,520 might need to be more. But I think at least opening it up for 655 00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:37,760 the ability for the boards and the association to make that determination 656 00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:40,760 would be um in everybody's best interest. 657 00:54:42,240 --> 00:54:48,079 » Since our attorney is not here to ask, I'm hoping you can answer this question. 658 00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:52,720 I'm also not an attorney, >> but I'm hoping you understand since you 659 00:54:50,240 --> 00:54:58,559 manage all three associations who has the ability to make the request 660 00:54:56,240 --> 00:55:02,480 to the township to change their PUD. I've heard from board members saying 661 00:55:00,319 --> 00:55:06,559 they have the ability as board members to request a change and I've heard from 662 00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:10,720 somebody else saying that there has to be a 60% majority of the residents 663 00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:15,359 within the community. So my understanding is that the joint board 664 00:55:13,599 --> 00:55:21,760 there's a split ownership that's like 57% 36% and 7%. Those three have to get 665 00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:26,000 together and come up with an approval before anything's submitted to you 666 00:55:23,359 --> 00:55:29,440 folks. Um I don't think it needs that twothirds majority of all of the 667 00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:33,119 neighborhood to vote on it. My understanding would be that the joint 668 00:55:31,359 --> 00:55:36,720 board as long as they've come to this conclusion 669 00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:42,000 have the ability to submit the application. That's that's my biggest 670 00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:47,040 question. Like the legality of it is who has the right. I understand 671 00:55:44,240 --> 00:55:51,280 » people are not happy and not but and I'm not trying to be rude. That's 672 00:55:49,119 --> 00:55:54,480 » I don't live in watermark. So my voice in that piece of it doesn't really 673 00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:59,520 matter what I would want if I live there. But the question as a board what 674 00:55:57,040 --> 00:56:02,960 we look at is what legally who has the right to come to us and ask us for this 675 00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:07,440 change >> on behalf of the community. I believe 676 00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:11,200 they followed the right protocol based on the structure that's in place at the 677 00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:14,480 moment. >> All right. Can you describe for me the 678 00:56:12,720 --> 00:56:18,000 structure? There's three associations and what are their names? 679 00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:20,960 » The Watermark Condominium Association, the Watermark Estate Homes, and the 680 00:56:19,599 --> 00:56:25,280 Watermark Club Homes. >> Okay. And the application was submitted 681 00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:31,280 just on behalf of the >> I'll tell you the watermark condominium 682 00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:34,960 association. So that's one of the three submitted the application. 683 00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:38,400 » Correct. asking for an amendment that affects all three, 684 00:56:36,079 --> 00:56:42,640 » but that's the 57% one, right? >> Correct. 685 00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:46,480 » I have they have weighted >> I didn't make up the rules. I'm just 686 00:56:44,240 --> 00:56:51,440 trying >> Mr. Chair, Mr. Chair, I may help clarify 687 00:56:49,359 --> 00:56:55,760 this. It's very common in uh condominiums that they have multiple 688 00:56:53,599 --> 00:57:00,240 associations and then there typically is a master association or what they call 689 00:56:58,079 --> 00:57:04,079 the joint board and the joint board does have responsibility for the common 690 00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:07,760 elements like roads uh because they obviously traverse uh through the 691 00:57:06,079 --> 00:57:12,319 development and so it would be appropriate for the joint board uh to do 692 00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:16,400 that. Now that being said now they would not have to have a two-thirds vote 693 00:57:13,839 --> 00:57:22,079 typically for example that or 60% that's often to amend the master dean bylaws. 694 00:57:19,359 --> 00:57:26,880 So I we have not reviewed uh those documents as part of this uh but uh if 695 00:57:24,720 --> 00:57:30,880 and I know it was mentioned that someone thought it was you know speed bumps were 696 00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:35,280 in there that's not necessarily true. I mean the uh the speedups are not always 697 00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:39,520 you know listed as a condition of the master dean bless but it would be just 698 00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:42,640 to clarify the master master association would represent all three and they are 699 00:57:41,119 --> 00:57:46,799 responsible for the common elements like the roads 700 00:57:43,599 --> 00:57:50,640 » and requesting >> so you mean you have the application in 701 00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:55,839 front of you is there anything that you see in the application that would tell 702 00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:59,920 you that was submitted by a joint board >> uh again I have not reviewed the master 703 00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:03,119 dean bylaws and so I don't know what the name of the master board or the joint 704 00:58:01,839 --> 00:58:05,280 board is >> okay. 705 00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:08,319 » That would be the the right that would be the 706 00:58:06,079 --> 00:58:15,040 » you're saying at the staff level threshold inquiry you staff can tell us 707 00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:18,799 that this applicant has the authority to request this. 708 00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:22,160 » I I'd have to review the master bylaws which we have not done. 709 00:58:20,160 --> 00:58:27,359 » Right. Okay. Yeah. >> Because I can't like I said then there's 710 00:58:25,359 --> 00:58:31,839 um like consent resolution that's attached and it doesn't say anything. It 711 00:58:29,359 --> 00:58:37,319 doesn't say anything about joint provo joint meeting. Um any 712 00:58:37,599 --> 00:58:41,599 » Thank you. Do you have a question? I'm sorry. 713 00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:46,480 » Just based on what you said, you mentioned two other uh associations that 714 00:58:44,240 --> 00:58:52,960 have the speed bumps. How many homes are in each? 715 00:58:49,200 --> 00:59:00,000 » Uh Cascade Lakes, I think, has 80. Um that's pretty close to uh to Watermark. 716 00:58:55,839 --> 00:59:02,400 and Cascade Point has I believe 30. >> Okay. Thank you. 717 00:59:01,040 --> 00:59:03,599 » Yep. >> Thank you. 718 00:59:02,960 --> 00:59:08,079 » Yeah. >> Thanks. 719 00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:12,240 » I have a quick question though. Um, as you know, when you sign by laws on the 720 00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:13,839 HOA, well, I don't know. I I think you could probably 721 00:59:12,799 --> 00:59:15,839 » We have to stay up. >> Yeah. 722 00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:18,079 » Nobody else can stay. Are you >> No, I Okay. Yeah. 723 00:59:16,799 --> 00:59:23,359 » I was just using him because he's familiar a little bit. Uh when the 724 00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:28,000 residents sign these agreements, do you know that in the agreements they know 725 00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:33,280 what they're signing? So they say, "Hey, no swimming pools, no this that." Do 726 00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:39,200 they have to give approval to have it changed as majority instead of saying 727 00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:45,440 this PDA, this uh PDF that they have to sign off on it first and approve it as a 728 00:59:41,599 --> 00:59:49,359 majority before they can make a change? So that's if if you're asking like a 729 00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:53,440 master deed change question. If it's going to be a material change, then 730 00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:58,799 oftentimes the master deed requires twothirds of the ownership to vote and 731 00:59:55,520 --> 01:00:01,920 approve that. Um this isn't a change to the master deed. 732 01:00:00,640 --> 01:00:06,720 I'm not sure if I'm answering your question. This is outside of that. Um so 733 01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:11,440 again, I don't think it requires the membership to do a twothirds vote in 734 01:00:09,680 --> 01:00:14,960 order to approve some amendment. This is us coming to the township to ask for the 735 01:00:14,559 --> 01:00:17,280 » Yeah. >> ordinance to change. 736 01:00:16,160 --> 01:00:19,920 » They're not asking to change their rules. They're asking to change our 737 01:00:18,640 --> 01:00:22,960 rules. >> If we want to change our rules, then I 738 01:00:21,599 --> 01:00:26,000 think we need twothirds if it's a material change. 739 01:00:23,839 --> 01:00:29,240 » Yeah. >> Thank you. 740 01:00:30,706 --> 01:00:32,726 [clears throat] 741 01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:44,559 I've been seeing a lot of arm signals back there. 742 01:00:42,400 --> 01:00:51,760 » Yeah. >> Hi, my name is Ed Young. I live on 5390 743 01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:57,359 Brassy Court. Um, and I am privileged to live my front porch is 50 feet off 744 01:00:54,960 --> 01:01:04,400 Watermark Drive and we spend the whole summer sitting out there. And so I think 745 01:01:01,599 --> 01:01:11,599 the homeowners board is kind of getting ahead of their skis to some extent. Um 746 01:01:08,640 --> 01:01:15,599 most of this is anecdotal evidence. Um there's some kind of unofficial speed 747 01:01:13,440 --> 01:01:21,440 studies. I don't think there's been a true traffic study in Watermark. Um I 748 01:01:18,400 --> 01:01:28,240 stopped by the planning office today and I have a map of the proposed 749 01:01:25,040 --> 01:01:33,119 um speed bumps. I'm not sure who decided where those speed bumps were going, but 750 01:01:30,640 --> 01:01:37,839 there's four of them. Um, two out of four make some sense because they're on 751 01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:43,440 straightaways, but some of them are in really congested areas where people 752 01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:50,480 really can't build up speed anyway. So, I just think that there there was no 753 01:01:46,319 --> 01:01:55,680 notification. I'm um I'm part of the homeowners association and I pay 754 01:01:53,839 --> 01:02:00,480 attention. I go to the annual meetings. I they first started talking about speed 755 01:01:58,079 --> 01:02:04,799 bumps at the last annual meeting like it was going to happen this week or next 756 01:02:02,799 --> 01:02:09,839 week and then all of a sudden we get this notice. Well, we the speed bumps 757 01:02:07,040 --> 01:02:17,440 are on hold. I know very few people in Watermark knew about this PUD the very 758 01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:21,520 few I certainly didn't and I'm I'm one of the original board members. I was a 759 01:02:19,359 --> 01:02:26,480 the original board member back in the early 2000s that helped put in the 760 01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:30,960 gates. So there was very little notification. So I just think we need to 761 01:02:29,359 --> 01:02:35,799 sit back and think about this a little bit more. 762 01:02:32,079 --> 01:02:35,799 » Thank you. Thank you. 763 01:02:44,720 --> 01:02:50,799 » Going once. >> Going twice. 764 01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:53,680 » Mr. Chair, a little Oh, sorry. >> Can I say something again? I just have a 765 01:02:53,200 --> 01:02:58,559 question. >> Yeah. And do you have the map that he's 766 01:02:57,760 --> 01:03:00,160 talking about? >> Yes. 767 01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:05,520 » Okay. >> Because on the longest straightaway 768 01:03:02,079 --> 01:03:09,920 there's only one. >> So just to 769 01:03:08,559 --> 01:03:14,000 » Wanted to make sure you had >> Thank you, 770 01:03:12,400 --> 01:03:18,240 » Mr. Chair. I got a couple uh clarifications. Hopefully able to read 771 01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:21,760 the sections of the Michigan Vehicle Code, Michigan Uniform Traffic Code. And 772 01:03:20,000 --> 01:03:24,480 it can only so speed limits can only be enforced if the road is open to the 773 01:03:23,280 --> 01:03:27,839 general public >> and is appropriately signed. So in this 774 01:03:26,319 --> 01:03:32,720 case, I don't believe they'd be able to, you know, enforce speed limit. Um so 775 01:03:30,559 --> 01:03:38,480 that they also read the zoning enabling act. I didn't see anything in there that 776 01:03:34,400 --> 01:03:43,839 would um or require change other changes based on just this uh this amendment 777 01:03:40,720 --> 01:03:48,720 bringing forward. Uh so and then finally um obviously any action taken by this 778 01:03:45,920 --> 01:03:52,400 board would not change their uh master teams. It would be up to them to make 779 01:03:50,640 --> 01:03:55,920 those amendments if they so choose. >> And because it's a private road, they 780 01:03:53,920 --> 01:03:59,359 can dictate what the speed limit is. It doesn't go based on 781 01:03:57,839 --> 01:04:02,960 » right state regulations. >> But for for police officers to enforce 782 01:04:01,520 --> 01:04:05,039 it, it would have to comply with the state regulations. 783 01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:08,039 » Okay. [clears throat] Okay. 784 01:04:08,400 --> 01:04:16,960 » All right. Anybody else? Public comment. >> All right. I'm going to make a motion to 785 01:04:14,079 --> 01:04:21,599 close public comment. >> Is there anybody online? 786 01:04:19,920 --> 01:04:24,880 All right. All those in favor? >> I 787 01:04:22,079 --> 01:04:28,640 » I Any oppose? Okay. 788 01:04:27,119 --> 01:04:32,599 Well, first off, thank you everybody for coming. Um, 789 01:04:33,440 --> 01:04:40,480 it's never easy. It's never easy ones. Um, 790 01:04:38,480 --> 01:04:44,720 and while I understand and appreciate, we're going to talk some more, but I'm 791 01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:49,680 just gonna say I get it, right? I mean, I constantly, my kids are older now, but 792 01:04:47,119 --> 01:04:55,440 I used to yell at people running through Beard Farm all the time 793 01:04:52,319 --> 01:05:00,960 and speed. I know it's an issue. Um, and I understand. Um, 794 01:04:58,559 --> 01:05:07,680 we have to look at the township, right? Not just an individual neighborhood. Um, 795 01:05:03,680 --> 01:05:12,960 I'm gonna say that my concern is, you know, if you let if we let this 796 01:05:10,559 --> 01:05:16,079 happen, then tomorrow some neighborhood's going to say, "Well, we 797 01:05:14,240 --> 01:05:21,280 want 8 foot fences, you know, we want barbed wire, we want whatever, right?" 798 01:05:18,319 --> 01:05:29,920 Um, I think I'm a little concerned that I don't feel like the the um the other 799 01:05:26,720 --> 01:05:35,280 residents had an opportunity to to voice their opinion and you know, we just got 800 01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:41,920 hammered on that here um in the Cascade Township with all the PUB ordinance 801 01:05:37,200 --> 01:05:48,720 changes. Um even though we had multiple outreaches, right? Um that's a concern. 802 01:05:45,520 --> 01:05:52,000 I mean, I I I understand what they're saying and I 803 01:05:50,480 --> 01:05:56,119 don't disagree with it, but I don't know. Um, 804 01:05:56,240 --> 01:06:06,280 I just have some concerns. So, jump in. Whoever whomever 805 01:06:09,280 --> 01:06:17,200 Yeah. So, thanks. I appreciate that. Thanks everyone for coming. 806 01:06:15,520 --> 01:06:21,039 It makes it kind of challenging for us sometimes, but it's nice to hear from 807 01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:25,520 everybody. And I just want to say too, I I hear everybody here. I understand the 808 01:06:23,839 --> 01:06:30,079 difficulties of boards trying to get things done. That's an issue I encounter 809 01:06:27,680 --> 01:06:34,640 all the time. I understand residents with kids and speeding covers. I 810 01:06:32,720 --> 01:06:41,440 understand safety. I mean, just saying this is a safety concern. Um, I get I'm 811 01:06:38,880 --> 01:06:44,559 probably going to be a no here. Um, and this is hard for me, too, because I'm in 812 01:06:42,799 --> 01:06:47,280 favor of property rights. when I hear somebody come up and say like, "Let's 813 01:06:45,920 --> 01:06:52,079 just handle this as a board. Let's handle this as a community. We just want 814 01:06:48,960 --> 01:06:59,520 you to get out of our way." Um, you know, that that speaks to me also. Um, I 815 01:06:56,799 --> 01:07:06,240 just I have some concerns. Um, on the face of the application, I 816 01:07:02,960 --> 01:07:10,720 couldn't get confirmation from staff. This is submitted by one association. 817 01:07:09,359 --> 01:07:15,359 people are telling me they're the controlling association perhaps but 818 01:07:13,359 --> 01:07:21,280 there are three they're asking this to be stripped from the entire PUD 819 01:07:18,480 --> 01:07:24,559 um which if I understand it again just from comments today that that will 820 01:07:22,720 --> 01:07:28,160 affect more than the applicant association 821 01:07:26,160 --> 01:07:34,720 even if they might be controlling I don't know that um I also am just a 822 01:07:32,160 --> 01:07:39,119 little bit so staff posed this I think as a thoughtprovoking question is well 823 01:07:37,680 --> 01:07:44,319 that we should consider wondering if there's a if there's a compelling reason 824 01:07:41,200 --> 01:07:49,200 to keep this prohibition. Um I don't agree with that is what our charge is 825 01:07:47,280 --> 01:07:54,720 today. Why isn't it is there a compelling reason to remove it? That's 826 01:07:51,440 --> 01:08:02,000 not what our ordinance says. Um these coming to us on PUB reviews. It's kind 827 01:07:58,400 --> 01:08:06,960 of a weird standard really, but it was approved by the township. They said that 828 01:08:04,799 --> 01:08:12,079 it met the safety standards when they put this prohibition in there. And to 829 01:08:09,359 --> 01:08:17,359 me, at least I think there has to be some kind of somewhat high to remove it 830 01:08:15,359 --> 01:08:20,799 because it is part of the ordinance. It's part of the public record. 831 01:08:18,960 --> 01:08:28,319 Everybody who bought in here saw that this existed. And to come to us and just 832 01:08:24,640 --> 01:08:34,159 say based on a statement that speeding is an issue along Watermark Drive, which 833 01:08:31,520 --> 01:08:39,279 sounds kind of like anecdotal evidence to me, not a statement of fact, that we 834 01:08:36,480 --> 01:08:46,839 should just vote to remove something that was in place in 1990 in every 835 01:08:42,000 --> 01:08:46,839 amendment since. Um 836 01:08:47,040 --> 01:08:53,040 I don't I don't I don't feel right about it based on the record before. So that 837 01:08:51,440 --> 01:08:57,560 that's kind of how I'm looking at it again all the concerns. 838 01:08:58,239 --> 01:09:07,040 » I Yeah, I feel like I have a lot of things. One, I think my main concern is 839 01:09:03,920 --> 01:09:11,199 just wondering who has the right to come here and ask us if they want this. And 840 01:09:09,279 --> 01:09:16,159 and based on that, I feel like it should be postponed our decision until we get 841 01:09:13,440 --> 01:09:21,359 that information and that staff has the ability to dig in or legal counsel has 842 01:09:18,560 --> 01:09:27,120 the ability to dig in. Because in my opinion, if it is all three boards and 843 01:09:24,960 --> 01:09:31,520 all three boards come to us with a statement saying that they all have 844 01:09:29,040 --> 01:09:36,159 agreed to that, then that's part of living in that society is you have a 845 01:09:34,400 --> 01:09:39,920 board that's making those choices for you and they're coming and asking and 846 01:09:38,080 --> 01:09:45,679 then they can kind of talk amongst themselves to decide if they really want 847 01:09:41,520 --> 01:09:51,040 to put them in or not put them in. Um, I think that's my biggest concern is just 848 01:09:48,159 --> 01:09:55,840 making sure because we don't have a statement from all three boards. We're 849 01:09:53,279 --> 01:10:00,000 being told one has a majority rule over it, but we don't know because nobody's 850 01:09:58,080 --> 01:10:04,800 we haven't looked into that. I think that I feel that we can't make a 851 01:10:01,840 --> 01:10:11,040 decision based on that and that it should be pro postponed until we get 852 01:10:07,360 --> 01:10:15,280 that piece of it and then some sort of a notice from all three boards officially 853 01:10:13,280 --> 01:10:21,679 that they all three are recommending this change and then it would be kind of 854 01:10:18,880 --> 01:10:27,520 a different thought process for me. >> Okay. Well, I want to say we know that 855 01:10:24,080 --> 01:10:32,719 private roads are a problem in Cascade and the new zoning hopefully will 856 01:10:30,640 --> 01:10:36,719 alleviate that, but that doesn't help all of you. But I I also think that um 857 01:10:35,280 --> 01:10:41,760 we're not quite ready. We don't have quite enough information to um approve 858 01:10:39,679 --> 01:10:44,159 this. >> Do you have something else? 859 01:10:42,800 --> 01:10:47,760 » I was just going to say, Wendy, that I you know, I agree with what you're 860 01:10:45,199 --> 01:10:52,320 saying. I have that same concern. But just for the record, I'm not sure if you 861 01:10:50,560 --> 01:10:57,760 went so far as to say this, but I would disagree if you're saying, well, if all 862 01:10:54,800 --> 01:11:02,000 three come to us, well then they have a right. I mean, essentially just to 863 01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:05,600 dictate that we change the PUD. Like that that's not the standard. Like just 864 01:11:03,840 --> 01:11:09,920 if you're the owner of the PUD, you can't come to us and say you have to 865 01:11:07,840 --> 01:11:12,480 change this because we say we have the authority. That's that's definitely not 866 01:11:12,000 --> 01:11:16,960 our standard, >> right? But I I haven't heard compelling 867 01:11:15,120 --> 01:11:20,159 reason either why. I mean, if other private roads have them within the 868 01:11:18,560 --> 01:11:25,760 community, I don't understand why we would tell one you can't have that. If 869 01:11:22,640 --> 01:11:30,560 the if the authorities within that PUD come to us and said they want them, why 870 01:11:28,400 --> 01:11:33,440 would we deny that if we allow it in other PUDs? 871 01:11:31,840 --> 01:11:37,920 » No, I understand that. >> And that's your point. Like if if if we 872 01:11:35,600 --> 01:11:40,960 didn't have any speed bumps in any PUD within the community, then that would be 873 01:11:39,600 --> 01:11:44,800 different. We could say no, you know, maybe our fire department doesn't want 874 01:11:42,159 --> 01:11:51,280 them or the somebody doesn't want them. But knowing they're in other PUDs if 875 01:11:48,800 --> 01:11:55,679 whoever the powers that be within Watermark that can make these requests 876 01:11:53,440 --> 01:11:59,760 and have legally have the ability to make these changes, which that's not my 877 01:11:57,760 --> 01:12:05,600 decision to make. That's part of the water the makeup of the watermark 878 01:12:02,560 --> 01:12:10,159 association. if they come to us and want this, I don't know how we could say no 879 01:12:07,920 --> 01:12:14,159 if others within the community has it. That's all I'm saying. But right now, I 880 01:12:12,080 --> 01:12:21,600 don't know who has the ability to ask us that. And I think we need that answer 881 01:12:17,679 --> 01:12:26,560 before we can move forward any further. I agree with that, but also I think it's 882 01:12:24,080 --> 01:12:32,080 community by community specific. What was Can you refresh my memory as to the 883 01:12:28,719 --> 01:12:38,600 first consideration, the wording of it? The second one was related to safety, 884 01:12:33,920 --> 01:12:38,600 but the first one was important as well. 885 01:12:38,880 --> 01:12:45,280 » Are you talking you're not talking about these considerations, are you? Are you 886 01:12:42,960 --> 01:12:47,360 the two factors in the PD? Uh, I don't think I have those here. Let me read 887 01:12:46,880 --> 01:12:51,040 them off. >> Sorry. I think there's somewhere 888 01:12:49,440 --> 01:12:54,719 » I thought it was in here. Yeah. >> Yeah, it's in the staff. 889 01:12:51,920 --> 01:12:57,440 » No, it's not in the staff. No, it's not. >> It's like the standard of approval and 890 01:12:56,239 --> 01:13:02,400 staff review. >> Yeah. the um site circulation and 891 01:12:59,520 --> 01:13:06,400 parking areas must be designed to ensure safety and convenience for vehicular and 892 01:13:05,199 --> 01:13:11,040 pedestrian traffic. >> So the site circulation I think could 893 01:13:08,239 --> 01:13:16,239 vary from community to community. So I think that even if we were to receive 894 01:13:13,520 --> 01:13:21,440 that that's a factor that we have to >> consider because that would be different 895 01:13:17,840 --> 01:13:26,719 based on each community. >> Yeah. 896 01:13:23,920 --> 01:13:32,480 » Robert, this is your chance. No, the only excuse me, I'm sorry. Um, knowing 897 01:13:29,360 --> 01:13:38,640 what the bylaws are the bylaws changed by the community itself or only by the 898 01:13:35,600 --> 01:13:42,320 board and I know when I signed our bylaws, it says everything in there, but 899 01:13:40,560 --> 01:13:47,920 if you had to change the bylaw, they had to be approved by a majority in the 900 01:13:44,719 --> 01:13:50,719 actual neighborhood. So, if you have three of them and only one of them 901 01:13:49,520 --> 01:13:54,960 brought it out, the other ones don't even know anything about it. So, I agree 902 01:13:52,480 --> 01:14:00,800 with Wendy and with Scott and you that we should wait and have more discussion 903 01:13:57,920 --> 01:14:05,719 on this and have them come back with a better plan than what was just thrown in 904 01:14:02,480 --> 01:14:05,719 front of us. 905 01:14:05,840 --> 01:14:13,840 » Yeah, I I I applaud you buying the radar detector. 906 01:14:11,840 --> 01:14:20,440 What a great one, you know, and that's great. I just um 907 01:14:16,800 --> 01:14:20,440 I don't know. I 908 01:14:20,640 --> 01:14:27,840 I'd like to hear from and I get being on the board I 909 01:14:25,600 --> 01:14:34,159 understand what you guys are doing. It's just it's difficult because 910 01:14:31,120 --> 01:14:36,880 part of me feels like you guys are trying to do all of me 911 01:14:35,760 --> 01:14:43,679 feels you guys are trying to do the right thing, but I also feel like 912 01:14:40,719 --> 01:14:47,920 maybe you're not listening to the people that you're representing, right? And or 913 01:14:46,080 --> 01:14:51,920 maybe you haven't given them the chance to, 914 01:14:49,520 --> 01:14:55,679 you know, have a discussion. Um, and maybe I'm saying that and thinking that 915 01:14:53,920 --> 01:14:59,920 because we just went through a big battle with changing all the workes here 916 01:14:57,679 --> 01:15:04,960 at Cascade. And again, we did reach out multiple times to the public and had 917 01:15:01,840 --> 01:15:10,960 public input and we still had a battle. And I I and maybe I'm getting this 918 01:15:08,400 --> 01:15:16,400 wrong, but I don't feel like you guys reached out to the rest of the residents 919 01:15:14,480 --> 01:15:24,080 and and that bothers me a little bit, right? Um, 920 01:15:19,199 --> 01:15:28,719 so I mean I'm okay tableling it. I mean that's not what I was thinking, but I'm 921 01:15:26,080 --> 01:15:34,400 okay tableling it to give you guys an opportunity to circle the wagons and see 922 01:15:31,920 --> 01:15:38,600 if you can get more input from your residents. Um, 923 01:15:39,040 --> 01:15:45,679 I as it sits right now I don't support it. 924 01:15:43,840 --> 01:15:50,159 » Let me ask a question. Stupid question. Do you guys an HOA or a P? Do you 925 01:15:48,159 --> 01:15:52,480 repeat? You're trying to amend a PUD as an HOA. Correct. 926 01:15:51,600 --> 01:15:58,719 » Correct. >> You need to vote on it as an HOA and 927 01:15:55,679 --> 01:16:03,600 bring it to us with an approved. It's got to be approved by the board. That's 928 01:16:01,280 --> 01:16:07,960 the only way you can amend the PUB. >> Mr. Chair, clarify. 929 01:16:08,560 --> 01:16:15,920 » But you guys, but you didn't notify anybody to who? Where's the vote? 930 01:16:14,000 --> 01:16:20,239 the it's got to be a homeowner. The homeowners have to vote on it, not the 931 01:16:17,920 --> 01:16:24,159 not the board. >> Oh, here's the here's the the homeowners 932 01:16:22,719 --> 01:16:28,000 associate. If a development has been handed over to a community, major 933 01:16:26,080 --> 01:16:34,159 changes to common areas or neighborhood rules usually require a vote and request 934 01:16:30,560 --> 01:16:37,199 by the home by the HOA homeowners. >> Mr. Chair, may go ahead. 935 01:16:35,840 --> 01:16:42,000 » I think to clarify, we're talking about two different things. Uh so uh what's 936 01:16:40,239 --> 01:16:47,199 being presented tonight is the PUD ordinance that was passed in 1990. 937 01:16:44,960 --> 01:16:50,800 » All right. Uh and so that can change that does not change their master eater 938 01:16:50,239 --> 01:16:52,719 bylaws. >> Correct. 939 01:16:51,280 --> 01:16:57,520 » They would have to take separate action to do that. So it's two separate things. 940 01:16:55,440 --> 01:17:01,440 This would simply allow them if they so chose uh to and I again we haven't 941 01:17:00,080 --> 01:17:05,040 reviewed the master team bylaws. I don't know if speed bumps are ever 942 01:17:02,640 --> 01:17:08,159 contemplated even in that document. Um but it would not it would still leave it 943 01:17:06,719 --> 01:17:12,679 up to the board to make that decision. based on their input from their 944 01:17:09,679 --> 01:17:12,679 residents. 945 01:17:12,868 --> 01:17:14,888 [clears throat] 946 01:17:18,080 --> 01:17:25,679 » I mean, do you guys want to table it for 30 or 60 days? What do you What do you 947 01:17:23,520 --> 01:17:30,880 What do you >> I prefer to wait. I don't I don't feel 948 01:17:29,040 --> 01:17:37,280 like I have enough information to know if this is something we can even 949 01:17:34,800 --> 01:17:43,760 consider to vote yes on. I have a question. If we vote and it is not 950 01:17:40,400 --> 01:17:48,239 approved, does that preclude a later application? They would have to pay for 951 01:17:45,520 --> 01:17:52,239 a secondary application, right? Put it postponing it allows them to get 952 01:17:50,159 --> 01:17:56,239 together what they need to get and bring it back to us with 953 01:17:54,239 --> 01:17:59,520 » the additional information we're asking versus them having to reapply. 954 01:17:59,373 --> 01:18:04,880 [snorts] >> Can I ask a question specifically? What 955 01:18:01,840 --> 01:18:08,719 information do you want? We did Jo we did vote as a joint board. I'm the 956 01:18:07,199 --> 01:18:14,159 president of the estate homes board and have been since 2003 957 01:18:10,560 --> 01:18:17,840 » and we did vote as a joint board to approve. 958 01:18:15,520 --> 01:18:20,640 » I think that attestation within our packet is just from the one board. 959 01:18:19,920 --> 01:18:24,400 » It is. >> Yeah. So I think that 960 01:18:21,840 --> 01:18:28,400 » and the reason that's the way it is is because 961 01:18:25,280 --> 01:18:33,040 » the homeowner association which is site the single family homes 962 01:18:30,560 --> 01:18:36,960 » is usually the point person. So they're the that deal with repaving the roads. 963 01:18:35,520 --> 01:18:41,760 They were the ones that were dealing with the gates and the management of all 964 01:18:40,080 --> 01:18:45,679 that, the installation. They're the ones that deal with most of our management 965 01:18:44,000 --> 01:18:50,640 who you had up there a little bit earlier, John Clark. 966 01:18:47,440 --> 01:18:51,440 » Um, we did vote. >> Okay. 967 01:18:51,040 --> 01:18:56,239 » So, >> and notice did go out. 968 01:18:53,520 --> 01:19:01,520 » So, Michael, I I appreciate that. But you you guys it's also there's threshold 969 01:18:58,880 --> 01:19:05,920 like again the threshold question is does the applicant have the question 970 01:19:03,280 --> 01:19:08,880 have the authority to ask for this? I understand what you're telling me but 971 01:19:07,360 --> 01:19:13,360 it's not in the materials that we received. In fact I don't know who you 972 01:19:11,199 --> 01:19:18,560 have preparing your resolution your board resolution which was attached to 973 01:19:15,679 --> 01:19:22,560 our documents which is the one document which would show that you have the 974 01:19:20,000 --> 01:19:27,199 authority and it doesn't. It says that it's one board that that that's 975 01:19:24,719 --> 01:19:30,360 submitting it. And so that's why we have a question. 976 01:19:32,320 --> 01:19:36,360 I I guess I would 977 01:19:37,280 --> 01:19:42,800 I'm just counting to 10. [clears throat] Um I guess I would say if you guys have 978 01:19:41,199 --> 01:19:46,360 nothing else to submit, then we can just vote on now. 979 01:19:46,640 --> 01:19:55,199 » What you want us to submit? I given you guys an opportunity to 980 01:19:52,000 --> 01:20:01,760 » I I think that's a fair question. Just clarify what you're saying. 981 01:19:56,960 --> 01:20:06,560 » Well, I mean, I would like to see um I'd like to see the residents hold. 982 01:20:03,440 --> 01:20:11,280 » Well, I I don't Yeah, I want to see the documents that just say that you have 983 01:20:08,560 --> 01:20:14,400 that ability and the information from all of the boards. 984 01:20:17,120 --> 01:20:20,120 So 985 01:20:20,880 --> 01:20:26,880 » and the legal documents that would tell us that the ability to make those 986 01:20:24,320 --> 01:20:31,600 requests. I think that's we don't and I think what Alen is saying is that we can 987 01:20:29,760 --> 01:20:36,080 wait and postpone this for you to bring that to us or we can make a vote now not 988 01:20:34,239 --> 01:20:39,199 with the information we have which would change personally what I would vote for 989 01:20:37,920 --> 01:20:41,760 because if I don't have the information I can't say yes. 990 01:20:40,080 --> 01:20:45,360 » Any more information? I think that's a perfectly fair request 991 01:20:43,360 --> 01:20:50,159 » that we can provide you that additional information including the legal stuff. 992 01:20:47,440 --> 01:20:56,320 » Yeah. So, yeah. So, does anybody have any any 993 01:20:52,960 --> 01:21:03,920 other internal conversation? So, does I'll make a I'll make a a motion to 994 01:21:00,719 --> 01:21:07,679 uh table this postpone. I got to get back to the front page. See what 995 01:21:06,560 --> 01:21:11,040 postpone or table? >> Don't Don't use the word table, please. 996 01:21:09,199 --> 01:21:16,640 » Okay. I'll make a motion to postpone case number 263924 997 01:21:14,239 --> 01:21:24,000 until additional documentation is submitted with the minutes and the legal 998 01:21:20,640 --> 01:21:30,640 documentation showing that the watermark condomination has the authority to u 999 01:21:27,520 --> 01:21:35,120 bring this to the board. Uh how long we postpone? 1000 01:21:32,800 --> 01:21:42,159 » Let's let's do 60 days. That's >> 60 60 days. 60 days. That enough? Okay. 1001 01:21:38,960 --> 01:21:47,120 six for 60 days. So this >> max of 60 days, maximum of 60 days. So 1002 01:21:44,800 --> 01:21:50,120 you guys could submit earlier. >> Um 1003 01:21:50,880 --> 01:21:55,679 anybody want to do it? >> No. 1004 01:21:52,400 --> 01:21:58,800 » Okay. Anybody support a second? >> Did you want to add something? Yeah, I 1005 01:21:57,040 --> 01:22:06,960 was going to see if we could I think it would help to have some other like So I 1006 01:22:02,400 --> 01:22:11,440 would like So what you said I I'd like though if you when you submit your 1007 01:22:08,800 --> 01:22:18,560 materials if you could identify whatever provision you say authorizes 1008 01:22:14,400 --> 01:22:25,199 the boards without of the co-owners to alter um the common road infrastructure. 1009 01:22:22,560 --> 01:22:28,880 Um, and I would like just the question answered 1010 01:22:26,960 --> 01:22:34,719 in the material submitted whether the owners um were given notice um and an 1011 01:22:32,880 --> 01:22:38,320 opportunity to vote. >> And I get it. If you're going to say 1012 01:22:36,159 --> 01:22:42,960 they don't have to, then just explain to me why they why they don't. 1013 01:22:40,880 --> 01:22:48,400 » Okay. So motion to postpone case number 263924 1014 01:22:45,199 --> 01:22:52,800 for up to a maximum of 60 days uh so that they can provide additional 1015 01:22:49,760 --> 01:22:57,920 documentation of the minutes and the legal documents showing that they have 1016 01:22:54,560 --> 01:23:02,560 the authority to uh represent that they have the authority to make a 1017 01:22:59,440 --> 01:23:11,040 recommendation and to show any documentation if any that they did reach 1018 01:23:05,280 --> 01:23:13,600 out to their uh fellow residents Is that >> good? 1019 01:23:11,520 --> 01:23:16,400 » Yep. >> Okay. 1020 01:23:14,480 --> 01:23:18,800 » All those in favor say I. >> I. 1021 01:23:16,960 --> 01:23:21,800 » Any opposed? >> Okay. 1022 01:23:22,000 --> 01:23:28,560 » And thank your board members because guys, this isn't easy doing what we do 1023 01:23:25,840 --> 01:23:31,800 up here. So, thank your board members. >> Thank you. 1024 01:23:32,800 --> 01:23:36,440 » Okay. Uh, 1025 01:23:38,400 --> 01:23:41,040 I'll just give 1026 01:23:42,400 --> 01:23:47,760 No. >> Hey, if you guys can bring it outside. 1027 01:23:45,679 --> 01:23:51,360 » We're still >> Hey, 1028 01:23:49,600 --> 01:23:57,239 we're still in session. So, if you guys can bring it outside, that'd be great. 1029 01:23:52,960 --> 01:23:57,239 Thank you so much. Appreciate that. 1030 01:23:58,800 --> 01:24:05,040 » I know. Grace is like, >> "Watch it." That little the little one, 1031 01:24:03,040 --> 01:24:07,520 the handle fall. You better watch it. She almost hit me. I I told I told him 1032 01:24:06,960 --> 01:24:10,880 to do it. I >> think I made our new planning director 1033 01:24:08,960 --> 01:24:16,159 jump when I did that, too. >> It was all Dan It was all Dan's fault. 1034 01:24:13,520 --> 01:24:21,679 » So, um All right. Article eight, acknowledge visitors and those wishing 1035 01:24:18,000 --> 01:24:27,679 to speak. Anybody online? Okay. Um article nine, other business. 1036 01:24:24,719 --> 01:24:32,480 » I'd like to thank everybody for voting for I don't care how you voted, but if 1037 01:24:29,920 --> 01:24:39,520 you voted, thank you for voting. And uh I believe um talking to Wendy that the 1038 01:24:35,920 --> 01:24:44,760 uh new PD ordinances went into effect I think the next day. So 1039 01:24:41,760 --> 01:24:44,760 » um 1040 01:24:44,800 --> 01:24:48,719 » zoning ordinances I'm sorry new zoning ordinances 1041 01:24:47,120 --> 01:24:51,040 » will prevent. >> Yes, we can. 1042 01:24:50,080 --> 01:24:53,360 » So um >> if not take notes and bring them to us. 1043 01:24:53,338 --> 01:24:57,920 [laughter] >> Yes. So thank you for everything. Does 1044 01:24:55,600 --> 01:25:03,840 anybody else have any other business? Just I just have one thing just with the 1045 01:25:00,800 --> 01:25:07,600 new zoning just that I'm excited that we have some fresh eyes that are looking at 1046 01:25:05,760 --> 01:25:13,520 it and I think as a planning commission as well um because it was reorganized 1047 01:25:11,760 --> 01:25:18,159 along with some things that were changed that if anything comes up during our 1048 01:25:15,120 --> 01:25:22,960 meetings that we do want to be addressed um just to make notes with Dan and so 1049 01:25:20,800 --> 01:25:28,560 that those things can be looked at if there is anything that might need some 1050 01:25:25,360 --> 01:25:31,760 adjusting in the future. Um, and if so, those changes would come back to us as a 1051 01:25:30,639 --> 01:25:36,080 planning commission to make recommendations to the board, which I 1052 01:25:34,080 --> 01:25:40,560 think is the appropriate way for things to happen. And I just want to stress 1053 01:25:38,480 --> 01:25:45,199 that that that is part of the plan commission's job is to make any of those 1054 01:25:43,280 --> 01:25:49,440 recommended changes or amendments in the future to them um to bring forward to 1055 01:25:47,520 --> 01:25:53,600 the board. So, I just think that's an important point. I know when we had the 1056 01:25:51,760 --> 01:25:56,960 old one, we would always have the planning director make notes that needs 1057 01:25:55,120 --> 01:26:01,679 to be changed. Look at that. the new zoning. Yeah. Um so I just I don't think 1058 01:25:59,440 --> 01:26:03,840 that needs to end. I think that it's >> great, 1059 01:26:02,159 --> 01:26:07,920 » you know, something that if if things come up that we think seem weird and 1060 01:26:05,920 --> 01:26:11,199 don't seem right. It's things that we need to bring forward. 1061 01:26:09,040 --> 01:26:16,000 » And if you have questions, Wendy, Grace, and I were part of the team that kind of 1062 01:26:13,440 --> 01:26:19,440 redid those. The McKenna guys are gone now. The ones that were in the or 1063 01:26:18,080 --> 01:26:23,520 they're moved on to a different project >> just left us. 1064 01:26:20,320 --> 01:26:27,600 » Yeah. And then uh Yeah. So, I made the same request of staff as to make notes 1065 01:26:25,600 --> 01:26:31,520 and then as we see issues maybe administering the ordinance, uh we can 1066 01:26:29,120 --> 01:26:36,080 bring those forward to you uh and uh suggest some potential amendments, but I 1067 01:26:33,760 --> 01:26:38,800 think uh we'll do that as a maybe a quarterly check-in or something of that 1068 01:26:37,440 --> 01:26:39,920 nature. That'd be great. >> Thank you. 1069 01:26:39,679 --> 01:26:43,199 » Yeah. >> What's that? 1070 01:26:41,280 --> 01:26:52,280 » Prevention. Yes. So, any any other business? 1071 01:26:48,000 --> 01:26:52,280 All right. Article 10 meeting adjourned.