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[0:00] Okay. All right. So we'll be ready to go to order. New business case,
[0:08] 26-9157. Permit number 26-732.
[0:21] Yeah, step discussion. So I can pretty much present what we have going on here. So Oscar has had
[0:31] submitted for a home daycare that he wanted to put in his townhouse.
[0:40] He also simultaneously, well, I don't know about simultaneously, we have a timeline of
[0:45] things, but he also submitted a fence permit, which he put in a four foot fence on his back
[0:53] side of his existing property, because he already had two fences in the backyard that
[1:05] the
[1:05] I'm hoping and I just got home to state MyRarshall went and did a pre-site inspection
[1:11] and which everything looked great in the inside and I walked on the outside and saw a four foot fence that was installed
[1:20] on the backside and his neighbor's fence that was an issue that I had found for appendix and of the home daycare
[1:29] There are three occupancies where a six-foot fence minimum is required.
[1:34] So that prompted Oscar to submit for this appeal for the six-foot live fence rule.
[1:45] I have one question that I have.
[1:49] Did Charles town adopt?
[1:52] Because there's a couple of counties in the state of West Virginia that did not adopt
[1:56] the four IRC to include the appendices and stuff like that.
[2:01] But the city of Charles town did adopt the appendices?
[2:02] Yes, correct.
[2:03] That's what I'm talking about.
[2:05] Yeah, we adopted all the appendices.
[2:06] That's what I'm talking about.
[2:08] Okay, I just want to give you
[2:15] any discussion.
[2:19] I guess maybe would you like me to read
[2:22] the code text for the, or I mean I'll have a copy. Everybody has a copy of it. Yeah, but under a
[2:30] pin of the home daycare or free advocacy or
[2:37] construction, it's under a M103.113.1 type of
[2:44] fence and hardware. And then death, this is if the yard is to be used as part of a daycare
[2:51] operation, it shall be fixed. So from what I understand from James, if a local playground
[2:58] has not been a thousand feet of the occupancy, then he does have to provide a fence
[3:06] in the yard for the daycare operation. He does not meet that requirement, so he does have
[3:11] to provide a fence in the area. The type of fence in the hardware, the fence shall be
[3:18] and be not less than six feet tall, completely infosing the area used for the daycare operation.
[3:26] Each opening shall be a gate or door equipped with a self-closing and self-latching device
[3:33] to be installed at not less than five feet above the ground.
[3:37] The only exception is the door to one for us part of the enclosure need not be equipped with the self-closing and national devices.
[3:47] Construction of fence up opening to the fence. Rolls are required by the section.
[3:52] She'll have intermediate rails or an ornamental pattern that do not allow a sphere for
[3:56] which is minimum in dire pass through. In addition, the following criteria must be met
[4:02] to maximum birth of parents between grade and the bottom of the fence.
[4:05] Roll or closer shall be two inches. Solid rolls or closures that do not have
[4:11] such as may start a certain role, shall not contain
[4:17] indentation, intentions for protrusions,
[4:19] except for told may start joints, maximum mesh size
[4:23] for chain-locked pins shall be an instant quarter of the wire,
[4:27] shall not be less than nine gates.
[4:29] That's not relevant, relevant.
[4:31] And that's pretty much all they give me for fencing
[4:37] for imping the appendix in.
[4:39] So,
[4:43] here's the thing is that if it's requirement,
[4:48] a state requirement, what it has to do with kids,
[4:53] going in any other direction would be
[4:58] if something would happen.
[5:00] I mean, who's going to be, you know, it would be a responsibility. And it was set of precedent for here after, if, if people don't want to abide by the rules. And I understand you put up a two foot fits. I mean, clearly, when, when you, when you got into what you want to do with a, that home day care, or in case we be, you really have to check in the
[5:29] all the information the requirements set forth that's involved with that and you know I know
[5:37] James might have proved a poor foot fence but I don't believe that time he whatever the case
[5:42] may be is for me it used as a daycare so you know either adding on to the fence would you know
[5:49] I mean adding on to the fence to make it six foot but you know going against the code and us
[5:57] looking at it and evaluating, well, you know, for an appeal, I mean, that puts all of us in responsibility
[6:07] for this, especially when it has to do with children.
[6:14] And like I say, you know, all the information that you need to research, all the information
[6:22] that has involved with daycare, the coves, whatever the state requires, whatever the
[6:28] forest requires, investigation of all that needs to be done.
[6:35] We have to do the same thing in our line of work, you know what I mean, to be able to do
[6:40] what we do.
[6:42] I'd like to say a couple of words if I could.
[6:46] Thank you, everyone, for having me here.
[6:47] I'm not scared of homeowner.
[6:49] My wife and I are looking to put in a small daycare in our town home.
[6:53] It's actually a max of five.
[6:56] We're doing, at the same time, we're doing the same permitting with the state of Virginia
[7:00] through WV CARES.
[7:02] It's a small daycare, no more than five children ages one to five.
[7:07] Two of those children are actually our own children.
[7:09] This is a way for us for my wife to stay home and take care of them, also making sure that
[7:15] we meet the bills every month.
[7:16] That being said, I definitely understand the town's liability, I understand your concern
[7:21] with safety.
[7:22] I have done a little bit of research, I actually work in the permitting world, not doing
[7:26] code enforcement, but similar, and I'd like to do an opening statement if I could.
[7:33] Good evening and thank you for taking time to your appeal.
[7:36] My wife and our request and relief from the fence requirement identified there in our inspection
[7:41] in connection with our application for an in-home daycare.
[7:44] We understand the city's concern regarding the approximately six foot required fence
[7:49] under section A and 103.1.3.1 or Pendex M and we respect the city's responsibility
[7:56] to ensure that the daycare environment is safe.
[7:58] Our request is specific to the existing conditions of our property.
[8:02] The existing fence is approximately four feet high and is already in place.
[8:07] The property is located within a cul-de-sac.
[8:09] There is substantial burn along the backside, which is about 15 feet high, and the rear of the property and surrounding properties have the digital fencing that we just added, including in approximately 8 foot privacy fence that's located on my left side, which is facing the roadway along the neighboring property to the left.
[8:30] The existing front face and every fence to the right are also approximately 4 feet high and 4 feet high where the gate is.
[8:37] When considered together, these existing conditions provide additional separation, screening and limitations on access to the backyard,
[8:45] satisfying both the privacy and security objective of appendix M.
[8:50] We are not asking the board to eliminate or generally change the fence requirement for daycare facilities in the city.
[8:56] We are asking that the board consider the unique conditions of our property in allowing the existing four foot fence to remain in its current configuration.
[9:03] It is my understanding that Appendixum has two parts, the safety and privacy aspect.
[9:09] The safety aspect is satisfied by the four-foot fence.
[9:13] No child is going to get over a four-foot fence.
[9:15] The second is the privacy aspect.
[9:18] To the right side of my property is a berm, right?
[9:21] That land itself is not developed and it's about half the height of the building itself of
[9:26] our townhouse, which is three stories high.
[9:29] On the left-hand side, my neighbor has an eight-foot privacy fence and then on the rest
[9:33] the property itself as documented in your packet is enclosed. So we will give the
[9:41] digs the unique characteristics of our home, satisfy both the safety in the privacy aspect
[9:48] of the building code index. So we're not looking for a change here, we're just looking for recognition
[9:55] that are properly meets the code in the appeals process of
[10:00] The agenda item says it should be equivalent or better than the code specifically cited as AM 103-1-3-1. We believe that our current property condition is satisfied that requirement. The Jefferson County Fire Martial has also inspected and approved the first floor of the care. Mr. Dawn here was there for that as well. The fence is the remaining issue that we are seeking to resolve. W-Mekir is actually doesn't require a fence at all for the care facilities.
[10:29] It only requires a fence when there is a change in grade or an existing condition that may be dangerous for children and at that time VWB cares only requires a three for fence.
[10:40] So really the city is just adapting the international building code which we're looking to have, you know, our property considered as a whole that we meet those requirements.
[10:51] We appreciate the city's review of our application and respectfully ask the board to consider
[10:57] whether existing side conditions justify allowing this existing fence to remain.
[11:02] When I am happy to answer any questions that provide any information the board may need,
[11:07] we're also very open to doing any type of adjustment or anything or if there are additional privacy
[11:15] or construction concerns that you may bring up, but we'd like to keep the existing
[11:20] for offense. We're a family for, we work for a living, we don't have the money to tear
[11:25] up an existing good fence and then add a six foot fence to meet a two foot difference.
[11:30] When our existing conditions, we feel, satisfy appendix M. But that being said, even doing
[11:38] so apart from the financial burden our family will face, we would have to go through other regulatory
[11:43] hurdles such as agreeing our neighbors, our neighbors have to agree to change the fence and
[11:48] And we're also part of an H.O.A., so it has to go through additional review process.
[11:52] So we humbly ask that the board consider a request so that we may provide much needed
[11:57] day here to the community.
[11:59] So parents can go home, I mean, parents can go to work, they can leave their children with
[12:04] us, and they can generate income and prosperity for the city as a whole.
[12:10] Okay, so we understand all of that.
[12:12] And all of us have to abide by the code, that's how we make a living.
[12:15] But so we can't every time that something comes up,
[12:19] we can't just say, well, it's a, you know,
[12:22] the kids will be covered and say,
[12:24] it only takes one job, it only takes one job.
[12:27] And we have to abide by the code the same way
[12:29] that everybody else does when we do our work
[12:32] or things are going on.
[12:34] We can't decipher what is a safety thing,
[12:37] what's a humble thing, a yard,
[12:41] when we're taking care of this kid or neighbor's kids,
[12:43] It's still, at the end of the day, it's still not,
[12:46] it doesn't mean to code, we can't do work.
[12:49] And then if something doesn't,
[12:51] if we don't see how to act with the building inspector
[12:53] or the code official, we can't just let it go
[12:56] or we can't just change just because we feel
[12:59] that it's not necessary.
[13:01] So, and I understand what you're saying.
[13:03] I exactly what you're saying, but you're the one
[13:06] to chose to be in this business.
[13:08] You chose to operate a data out of your model,
[13:11] with that being said, then you need to provide whatever it takes to operate that business.
[13:16] If it's not going to be a daycare, if it's just your family, within, within you didn't need to farm
[13:21] or you didn't put an application for it, but you're running a business.
[13:25] So it's not about you, your family, your wife, you're making sure people can go to work
[13:29] if you run a business. So when it comes to that, we all have to buy about a code.
[13:34] And if it's, if it's something that you, you can add onto the fence,
[13:38] or you have to put a new fence up or add onto the fence, that's part you want to do business.
[13:44] And we all have to do that, whether we like it or not we all have to do that.
[13:48] And then also I have a board here.
[13:52] I don't know if you have a board here.
[13:55] We're going to do the only one.
[13:57] We're going to really address the code.
[14:00] The code clearly states that you have to have a six-foot fence.
[14:03] If you did, if we were to allow you, not have a forefoot fence, at that point, then you go to the next thing, and you have self-closing, and you have something that locks at five foot.
[14:15] Now you've got another curve violation that comes into it.
[14:18] So, also as a word, we can't just say, let's move on and let you do that, we can't do that.
[14:26] We have to look at this code and like Mark says it's clearly laid out in the code that it has to be done
[14:32] and I don't think we have an authority to go. Well if we're going to give you an exception this time, I mean if you look at the code it's like Mark said it's pretty clear.
[14:41] I have a couple of questions with clarification. I agree with the statements that we're not here to re-write in a while or
[14:49] allow code sections or override code sections. We're here as an interpretation of code where there is gray area.
[14:57] I do have some technical questions on it.
[15:00] We ask other conditions to hear that other than the height and fence. There's also the two-inch clearance at the bottom, as well as the lashing. I mean, I assume we don't meet the lashing because if the fence is a 4 feet high, you can have a lashing like these. What is it? Does this seem fence conditions all around? Do we meet that? No protrusion? It's not being unable to climb it, basically, is the nameless of the wall there or the code?
[15:25] because there aren't openings large enough to get hands-of-feet in to climb up a ladder and be able to get over.
[15:32] And that clear as a bottom where, you know, hands and animals can't get through or, you know,
[15:37] animals can get some others out of them. No hands could get underneath to get into danger on the other side.
[15:42] What are the existing conditions of those existing fences? Do they meet all of the other requirements?
[15:50] So, yes, they meet the 4-inch opening, dimensions, very close to the 2-inch minimum at the
[15:58] bottom.
[15:59] Now, my interpretation of this code is not to keep children in by themselves so they
[16:10] cannot come out because I think if the sole intention was that, then they would cover
[16:16] with things like the pool code does where you have to have your horse on also me 45 inches
[16:21] apart so they can come out. This appendix in doesn't cover any of that so I think it's
[16:28] also and I think the commentary in the IRC also says that it's also a security thing keeping
[16:34] somebody from reaching over or from getting into that.
[16:38] in terms of the same way.
[16:40] Yes.
[16:41] Is both directions or this?
[16:43] The potential of them being able to climb out of the world.
[16:46] Because it is a security safety situation.
[16:50] Just because you have neighbors yard doesn't mean there's not risk on in the neighbors yard that you, your partner,
[16:56] yourself can't legally control them.
[16:59] You'll get there.
[17:01] Yes, you may be a trusted neighbor, doesn't mean that someone didn't get in their yard
[17:04] that can reach across the fourth of the fence.
[17:06] I think that's a drive behind me.
[17:07] Well, six foot.
[17:08] You can't reach over grab a kid and run it, very good.
[17:10] Who's that clear as a bottom?
[17:11] I think it's really geared around other animals.
[17:15] You know, they run through the bottom and another animal
[17:19] can get into.
[17:20] So that's why I'm told the nation of the code section
[17:24] is the need of my ability to be able to crawl over
[17:26] but also create a security barrier that's large enough
[17:30] that another adult could not reach across
[17:33] and be able to gain access in there because we control what happens in our neighbor's houses,
[17:39] unfortunately, even though there is an additional perimeter that's out around it.
[17:43] And that's under what clarification here.
[17:46] I do agree that, I mean, it's very clear, six feet, and we open the door and start striking
[17:53] code sections.
[17:54] We've opened the door for, well, we've got to be here every day, all day, as good patrol.
[17:59] So, you know, the justice doesn't pretty soon will be in the courtroom.
[18:03] So having walked that out for many years with it, I agree with the six-foot limit, unfortunately.
[18:11] As difficult as this for business, it's pretty clean cut in my opinion.
[18:19] Mr. Chair, I'm James Newman, I'm the City Planner and Zoning Subvision Administrator, and
[18:25] I just want to briefly go over the harms that we've got for a home-day care.
[18:29] So under the zoning ordinance Article 1323 subsection D, if you're running a daycare out of your home, there's a handful of requirements, then it comes into play here is sections number four.
[18:44] So basically you need to provide a play area either at the home or a suitable play area located within a thousand feet of the home.
[18:51] in this case the nearest part was one thousand thirty two square feet or one thousand
[18:54] thirty two linear feet away and so I tell them what you need to have your backyard fence
[19:00] stand there is no minimum or maximum fence requirement for the zoning ordinance for a
[19:07] daycare and we realize we decided realize that that is a there's a gap between what our
[19:14] zoning ordinance says and what our buildup code says and what the two don't interface very
[19:18] very well. So, we've, we've
[19:21] rectified our, our internally new
[19:24] process and doing is now looking
[19:25] in all of our amount of patient
[19:26] permits. So, this isn't happened
[19:28] again. But in regards to the
[19:30] gentleman's home occupations
[19:31] permit for a daycare, it did meet
[19:33] all of our zoning ordinance requirements.
[19:35] There is no requirement that they have a
[19:37] fenced in play yard, just that there
[19:38] be a suitable play yard. And our
[19:40] request is that they put up a fence
[19:41] in their backyards so that the children are safe, but again, there's no minimum
[19:44] high requirement placed in the zoning ordinance.
[19:48] That's all.
[19:49] Thank you.
[20:00] Is there a motion? I have a motion to keep the finance point down to be in effect and be required for a six-litre event.
[20:11] I'll see.
[20:12] No, I'm favourable.
[20:13] No.