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Hello everyone. Uh, welcome to the
Township of Chadam committee meeting the

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workshop agenda for today, March 10th.
Uh, the meeting is being called to order

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at 7:31. Mr. Lacanti, has adequate
notice been given, please?

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» Yes. Adequate notice of this meeting of
the township committee was given as

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required by the open public meetings act
as follows. Notice was given to the Chad

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Courier in the Mars County Deli Record
on January 7th, 2026. Notice was posted

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on the bulletin board in the main
hallway of the municipal building on

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January 7th, 2026. And notice was filed
with the township clerk on January 7th,

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2026.
>> Thank you, Mr. Landi. Can we have a roll

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call, please?
>> Mr. Al Perowitz.

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» Mr. Troy,
>> here.

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» Mrs. Ewald,
>> here. Deputy Mayor McHugh

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» here and mayoritz.
>> Yes, here

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» and second call. Mr. Alaritz
>> here.

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We have the whole committee.
>> Okay.

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Now I would like to open uh the first
hearing of citizens. Mr. Lante, will you

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please provide guidance?
>> Members of the public are now welcome to

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come to the microphone to address the
township committee. This is an

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opportunity for any member of the public
to be heard about issues which are not

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topics scheduled for public hearings
tonight. Those present may step up to

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the microphone to be heard. If you're
watching via Zoom, you may speak during

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any of the public comment sessions by
following the Zoom instructions to raise

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your hand. Whether in person or online,
when you're recognized to speak, please

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mind the following procedures. Please
say your name, spell your last name, and

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give the name of your street. You are
not required to give your street number.

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All public comments will be limited to 3
minutes. Rather than use any of your

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time answering questions, the township
committee will wait until you finish

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speaking before responding.
There are two public comment sessions on

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tonight's agenda. Each member of the
public will be limited to one comment of

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up to three minutes during each public
comment period. Written comments

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submitted to the township clerk before 3
p.m. today will be read during the

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public comment sessions. Written
comments are subject to the same

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guidelines as oral comments. Duplicative
written comments uh may be summarized

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rather than read in full according to
the guidelines issued by the New Jersey

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Division of Local Government Services.
Um these rules will also apply to the

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public hearing on the uh the ordinances
this evening. And if anyone's here about

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the ordinances, we will have separate
public hearings uh for those matters.

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And uh we did not have any written
comments for this evening.

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» Okay. Uh are there any hands raised
online?

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Uh, no hands raised online.
>> Any member of the audience would like to

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come forward to ask any questions?

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» Any question?

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Let's see.
>> Questions or comments? Anything?

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» And this is for anything other than the
ordinances.

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» Okay.
>> The ordinances are the affordable

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housing matters.

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Then we can close the first hearing of
citizens

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and we can move on to the public hearing
for the adoption of the ordinances

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number 2026-05
the affordable housing ordinance.

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Ordinance 2026-06
adding the H AH1 zone and ordinance

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2026-07 affordable housing overlay
district.

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We open it to to comment now.
>> Yes. Uh we do not have any hands raised

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online.
>> Okay.

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» So if anyone is here to speak about
ordinance 202605

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um so the zoning ordinances come next.
This is the one that um is we'll let

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Jessica describe what it's about. But um
if you're here about either of the

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zoning ordinances, those are the next
two.

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Now, for the benefit of the residents,
you want to just do all three of them

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public hearing together?
>> Uh, we should have separate ones, one

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for each.
>> Okay.

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» Okay. So, are we going to let Jessica
make comments first and then

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» Well, that's that's up to to you.
>> Yes. Let's have Jessica make comments

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first.
>> Yeah.

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» And give an overview.
>> Good evening, everybody. The first

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ordinance on for tonight is uh what's
referred to as the affordable housing

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ordinance which set forth the rules and
regulations for the administration of

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Cadam's affordable housing program and
how the units that will be produced um

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and the units that are currently
available will be administered. This

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includes income distribution limits, um,
bedroom distributions,

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um, as well as how they're going to be
marketed to residents and re and those

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who live in the affordable housing
region. It also includes what's called a

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um, development fee ordinance, which is
actually very similar. Actually, it is

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the same ordinance that we had adopted
previously. it was just um brought up to

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date with the new UAC regulations.

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» So just to make clear, this is what we
already have on the books but updated

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based on the new the new round.
>> Yeah, it is pretty much exactly what we

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had. Um this is for the most part the or
the model ordinance that most

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municipalities will be adopting. I did
make some specific changes that I felt

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were important for the township and it
was signed off by um

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by the um fair share housing even though
it didn't need to be. They uh they did

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sign off on it so we shouldn't have any
issues. Um everything has been um you

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know reviewed by everyone it needs to be
reviewed by. So,

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» okay. Any other discussion
>> or we can open to the public if there

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are any comments on ordinance 2026-05
the affordable housing ordinance

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» that or can type in the chat. Um,
I'm reading through this stuff. Uh, can

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you tell me how many units you guys are
meaning to build or whatever? I know

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there's a Southern Boulevard.
>> I can't hear you. Can we

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» Oh, you can't hear me at all. Uh,
>> speak into the mic.

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» Okay. Sorry. Head for me.
Sorry about that. Uh, I'm trying to find

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out how many uh affordable housing
housing units you guys are committing to

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build through this settlement.
So we did not settle with fair share

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housing. So there is no settlement. This
is the affordable housing ordinance

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which does administer the affordable
housing units which will be created. Our

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realistic development potential was four
units. So the township has committed to

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building four units over the next
10-year period

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» at Southern Boulevard.
>> That will be in the I I'm not I don't

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know it is Southern Boulevard, but I may
Yes, that

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» okay.
>> I know it is block I know the blocks and

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lots. Um later there are two ordinances
on regarding overlay zones and those are

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zones um which will help to
meet our unmet need. Our unmet need is

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what we're not committing to build but
we're zoning to build. So it doesn't

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have to be built. We're not planning to
build it but we are providing the

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potential for it to be built.
>> Thank you.

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I will also say the uh realistic
development potential was four units,

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but we are building a um triplex and we
will receive one bonus credit. So

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technically it's three units plus one
bonus credit

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» when you say four units.
>> Oh, sorry. Jim Blo B I E L L O Popler

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Lane.
When you say units, how many actual

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apartments or whatever they are being
built in those four units?

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» Three.
>> Three.

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» There will be three units. Three
apartments with varying bedrooms, but

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only three.
>> Okay. How many How many units are we

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required by state law to build?
>> Three.

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» I'm sorry. I'm sorry. We're required to
build four. We're building three and we

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get one bonus credit. Um, if I can just
uh cut in for procedure, let the

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resident ask all your questions and then
we'll respond at the end.

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» Okay. Thank you.
>> Okay.

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» Sorry.
>> So, the unit on where Charlie Browns

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used to be,
>> is that one unit or is that 80 or 60

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units?
>> 62 units.

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» 62 units.
>> Sorry, I'm not supposed to wait for all

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these questions.
>> That's all right. That's all right.

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» Question.
>> So, you're saying all Chadam's going to

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do is build four more units.
>> Three. three more units.

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» So, this is the fourth round of
affordable housing. We have been found

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compliant and done everything we needed
to do for our third round housing

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with the
building of the um group homes.

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» That's the last remaining units that
need to be built for our third round

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compliance. The three units that we're
discussing this evening are for our

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fourth round compliance.
>> How big a building is that going to be

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for three units?

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It's a triplex, so they'll It's going to
be similar to a townhouse with three.

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» Okay. Okay.
>> All right. Thank you.

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Okay, just as a reminder before you
start, um, ask all your questions and

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once you're done, then we'll respond.
Once we start responding,

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that's you're done with questions. So,
>> it's an unusual request. So, that's

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another question based on response. I
>> Yeah, that's that's part of board

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procedures. Okay. Go ahead. Okay. Well,
let me see if I could ask this question

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so I don't have to try to get another
question in. My name is Don Banano and

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Three Magnolia Place. So, in the
deliberations of this council,

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uh, what went into the decision to
change the business districts, and

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that's what I understand you're doing.
You're now including low moderate income

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housing. What went into the decision of
concentrating that in the areas you've

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chosen?
and was there consideration for any of

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the residents around there? And the last
question I'll ask you, um, and I'm going

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to ask it different this way. Uh, how
many members of the board live within an

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eighth of a mile of where this new
business district is going to be? Any

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hands? Quarter of a mile. You're not
going to answer 3/4 of a mile. Two

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miles.
Two miles.

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Two miles. So effectively these the the
members here are concentrating these low

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moderate income housing units at least
the plan and I understand you're not

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going to do anything now but you're
concentrating in an area where none of

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you move within a mile mile and a half
of it whereas there are many residents

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who may be within 500 to a,000 ft of all
of these areas that are being

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identified. So, was there any
consideration to say, gee, maybe we

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ought to spread this out to with this
very, very large township that we live

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in. Now, I'm going to make this comment.
I was here four years ago, and maybe it

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was a little less, maybe a little more
when uh you guys weren't here, but the

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port had decided to put in some low and
moderate income housing right around

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here. You couldn't get a seat in the
room. You couldn't get a seat outside.

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You couldn't get a street on the seat
out in a parking lot. It was packed and

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there was a good reason for it because
people were being affected by it. This

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decision not that many people are being
affected by it but there is a

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development that is going to be affected
by it and no consideration has been

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given to those people who pay a lot of
taxes and get very very little in

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return. Our choice I understand that
nobody's forcing us to live there. But

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it seems to be an odd concentration of
where these affordable housing units are

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going to be placed. This is a very large
township. Uh there are a lot of things

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that are going on adjacent to this
township that are going to require these

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shopping centers to stay as shopping
centers. There is a big development in

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Gerald going in by Madison. Not your
responsibility, but those people are

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going to want to shop somewhere. We
start putting affordable housing within

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those shopping areas, it's going to take
away shopping opportunities. Um, so I'd

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like to understand the thought process
is why we're jamming it all into one

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area. Why not spread it out throughout
the township? Thank you.

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» Do you want to make some clarification
first?

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» Yeah, definitely some legal
clarification. Yeah, I I

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» answer the person who
>> Yes.

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» Yes.

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» But you if you want to come back up if
you have a follow-up question, you're

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more than welcome to come back to the
mic if you if you want to.

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» Should I?
>> No, we're going to answer his question.

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We're going to have our
>> Do you want me You want to

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» provide cl I can provide wanted to
provide some clarification just to make

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sure residents understand. Um
so the third round affordable housing

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which was the last round that we
completed we built 62 units which is the

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Charlie Brown site and 24 units went in
at the Arbor Green site. Those are 100%

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affordable units. We are obligated under
this fourth round to build three which

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gives us four credits affordable housing
units. the overlay zone. In our third

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round, we did an overlay zone over the
property that's next to the Chattam

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Club. The overlay zone provides the
option for a developer to come in and to

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do uh residential housing, but it's
mixed in terms of being affordable and

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market rate. So, we already have an
overlay zone on a property that was

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that's been in place during the third
round. But whether or not a developer

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comes in, it's it's up to, you know, the
market dynamics, it's up to the

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development, that was never opted, but
it would in that property, it's 36 units

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and it would be mixed use and it's 5:1
ratio market rate housing to affordable

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housing. the de the overlay zone. The
reason that it was put over that area is

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we have to provide a realistic
development potential for those units.

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We still have an obligation to build,
but we don't have space to build. So,

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you have to provide you have to meet
that. It's basically an unmet need. You

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have to provide some way to to
accommodate for that unmet need. And it

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is the same way as that property,
Fairmount Commons, that's over by the

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Chattam Club in that it allows for
market and affordable. So, I think it's

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a 20% set aside affordable and the way
it was structured is so that it's two

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stories. I don't even think it allows
for three stories of residential

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development similar to what you already
have at the Charlie Brown site and other

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structures in the area. And again,
market dynamics, the people who own

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those properties, that may not happen,
but it was our obligation to provide a

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realistic development potential for for
that ability to put in the multi-unit

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housing. So, I hope that I just wanted
to clear the I still respect everybody's

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input and I just want to make sure we
understood what the dynamics are. And

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now now I'll turn it over to whatever
whoever else wanted to provide input.

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» I think also based on the landscape of
Chhattam Township and swamp and wetlands

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and those kind of things, we are very
limited in our options of where we are

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able to identify these areas. So, we
were very thoughtful about all of this

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and um it's a legal obligation. Chattam
Township has been one of the only

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townships and municipalities that has
successfully,

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00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:55,839
you know, implemented our our affordable
housing. There are some some

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municipalities that haven't done
anything yet. And um Fair Share Housing

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00:16:59,279 --> 00:17:04,959
brought uh lawsuits against every
municipality, over 400 municipalities in

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New Jersey. China Township was one of
maybe two that were successful in

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winning
>> if if unless you know if your fellow

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» I'd like to ask
>> unless Jessica you had anything else you

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wanted to add.
>> I I do. So um we if we understand the

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overlay zones they retain the zoning
that is already there. The overlay

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zoning gives an option. It doesn't mean
that that option has to be taken, but it

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provides the the zoning required by the
Mount Laurel doctrine.

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» I understand.
>> Now, we were legally required under this

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new the new amended housing act to
identify portions of Chadam which were

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this is a term that is in the fair
housing act likely to redevelop. So, we

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couldn't just pick anywhere. We had to
go through and look at the areas that

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were likely to redevelop. The statute
identified some types that you know some

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types of um properties u nurseries uh
like plant nurseries um and not baby

235
00:18:11,360 --> 00:18:18,880
nurseries but um that for example that's
one of them. Um any vacant land that

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that could be developed that that would
obviously be another one. Um, fair share

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was very much pushing Chadam to have
higher densities in our areas where they

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currently our overlay zones are 10
dwelling units per acre. What that means

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is for every acre of land, 10 units are
available. Two of those units would be

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affordable housing units. eight of those
if the zoning is if you take if someone

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takes advantage of the zoning um the
overlay zoning, eight of those would be

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market rate units. Two of them would be
affordable units. And when you go

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through the entirety of the
um overlay zones, it equals what our

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unmet need is.
>> I understand

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00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:11,360
» what you just said.
>> Okay. However, it seems to me when you

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thought about where are we now going to
put these these areas, you concentrated

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00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:24,480
extremely extreme concentration in one
area. Now, Chattam Township is a from

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from acreage, square miles or whatever
you want to call it is very very large.

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And I know there's some big properties,
there's some big houses, there are a lot

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00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:36,640
of things, but it's strange that you
concentrated in an area. There are two

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00:19:33,919 --> 00:19:41,440
shopping malls that are critical to this
to not only our area in Chattam

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00:19:39,120 --> 00:19:46,080
Township, they're critical to Madison. I
know we don't give a damn about Madison.

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00:19:43,039 --> 00:19:50,160
We don't ever did. Um Mars, Madison's
going to build on Geralda. Uh where are

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00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:54,480
those people going to be shopping? What
you've done is taken the in my opinion,

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00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:57,840
you've taken the easy way out. you said,
'You know what? We're not going to get

256
00:19:56,320 --> 00:20:02,320
Look how many people have shown up here
tonight. Almost none. Because you know

257
00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:06,640
what? Because they're not affected. When
we had the when we had the um

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00:20:04,559 --> 00:20:10,960
recommendation to put low and moderate
income housing on this property here,

259
00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:14,640
and I just talked about it before, you
couldn't get a parking spot. You

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00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:18,720
couldn't squeeze yourself in here. So,
it's a matter of, you know what, I think

261
00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:22,480
you made a decision on who's who are we
going to annoy? Who are we going to get

262
00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:25,919
mad at us? We don't give a damn. those
people in that development behind there,

263
00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:30,240
we don't give a damn about them. We pay
2 and a half% of the taxes. We get

264
00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:35,200
nothing. We That's our choice. That's
not a complaint. It's our choice. But I

265
00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:40,000
think you've taken an easy way out.
Said, you know what? Let's make it a a

266
00:20:37,360 --> 00:20:44,559
business to change the business zone to
a business affordable housing zone and

267
00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:47,840
it's given you an easy way out. You
didn't do enough work on this. There's

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00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:51,760
got to be other areas you could have
identified instead of concentrating it.

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00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:54,720
And that's why I asked the question, how
many of you on the board live within an

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00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:59,360
eighth of a mile, a quarter of a mile, a
half a mile? You could be three miles

271
00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:02,720
away and still be in this township.
I don't know. I'm not asking where you

272
00:21:00,799 --> 00:21:06,799
live, but that's the issue. And I don't
think you've given enough thought to

273
00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:10,559
what you do to other people who are big
contributors to the tax base in this

274
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:15,039
town without really saying, you know
what, maybe we should have diversified

275
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:18,240
this a little bit more. So that's my
complaint.

276
00:21:16,559 --> 00:21:23,840
And I know you've already voted on this,
so it's probably a dead issue for us, me

277
00:21:21,360 --> 00:21:29,280
living in this where I do, but you're
you're concentrating this zone in one

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00:21:26,799 --> 00:21:32,720
area of this enormous township. And I
know what you said. We got swamps, we

279
00:21:30,799 --> 00:21:37,120
got a lot of things. There are other
areas, and I would love to see the other

280
00:21:34,559 --> 00:21:40,559
areas you looked at and turned down.
Thank you.

281
00:21:38,799 --> 00:21:44,960
» So, I would say the other side of that
is not only I've lived here for 25

282
00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:51,679
years. I grew up in Madison, actually.
So, I I've lived there for 35 years.

283
00:21:47,919 --> 00:21:55,280
» So, um there's also consideration for
our new residents and the people that

284
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will move into town if there is
affordable housing.

285
00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:03,440
People that qualify for affordable
housing, and there's a reason they

286
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:07,360
qualify for affordable housing,
>> they may or may not have an automobile.

287
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:10,799
They may or may not have transportation.
We're required at Charlie Browns to

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00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:13,760
provide transportation to the train
station as part of affordable housing

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00:22:12,799 --> 00:22:19,120
because they may not have
transportation. So I think as a human

290
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:23,679
being to put them out on Myersville Road
is yeah I didn't think that was the best

291
00:22:21,360 --> 00:22:28,799
» prior board prior board decided here was
a pretty good place. So boards have

292
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:32,480
different opinions. So you that's this
board's decision and I'm sure it's an

293
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:35,120
easy one for you guys to make and say
you know what people have affordable

294
00:22:33,919 --> 00:22:39,039
housing they don't have two or three
cars put them where they're shopping.

295
00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:41,760
Well guess what if you if you put
affordable housing in there where are

296
00:22:40,559 --> 00:22:45,679
they going to shop? They're not going to
shop there if you take the if you take

297
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:50,720
away the the shopping malls, the not
malls, but the shopping areas are two to

298
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:54,720
two that the abut Chunk Pike Road. So,
it just seems to me you guys made a

299
00:22:52,559 --> 00:22:58,320
pretty easy decision. Let's make this
decision. We're not going to have a lot

300
00:22:56,480 --> 00:23:02,640
of people screaming about it. It may
never happen, but you know what? You're

301
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:06,559
being very unfair to the people who
bought those properties. Very, very

302
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:11,520
unfair. We should go back and rethink
what you decided to do.

303
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:15,280
Mayor, if I may just make a couple
comments. Um,

304
00:23:12,799 --> 00:23:20,880
» first first if I may just clarify um if
I'm if I'm hearing uh the gentleman uh

305
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:24,240
correctly
this has been structured in such a way

306
00:23:22,559 --> 00:23:28,480
that we have what's called an overlay
zoning. So the underlying pre-existing

307
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:33,919
zoning still exists and is applicable.
So I think the notion and and the extent

308
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:40,080
that um something does materialize there
per this plan uh would be um not to uh

309
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:45,679
eliminate the commercial component that
is to say the retail shopping there. It

310
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:49,679
would uh desiraably be a mixeduse um
structure where you've got residential

311
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:55,679
with the existing some semblance of the
existing retail uh along with parking.

312
00:23:53,360 --> 00:24:01,200
So that's a hope and desire and again
this is a a you know a uh a straw man

313
00:23:59,360 --> 00:24:04,960
plan that may or may not happen over the
next 10 years. That's sort of the

314
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:09,280
horizon. Uh a couple things I understand
and I certainly respect your your your

315
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:12,799
opinion. Um there's a lot of work that
happens uh at at the subcommittee

316
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:18,080
committee level that is to say the
affordable housing subcommittee. So

317
00:24:14,559 --> 00:24:23,200
there's been uh extensive hours uh
consulting with professionals uh looking

318
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:27,760
at maps so on so forth and looking at uh
the the drafting of the the affordable

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00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:31,200
housing language. So one of the first
things we did was certainly not accept

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00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:36,640
the preliminary figures that were
provided to us. We took uh a proactive

321
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:40,240
and aggressive step to challenge those
numbers, reduce it and we effectively

322
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:44,400
did. We were sued twice by the New
Jersey Builders Association and then a

323
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:49,760
second time by Fair Share. We
effectively reduced the the commitment

324
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:53,919
by I think about 10%. Um most
municipalities just excuse me just

325
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:58,080
accepted the numbers. Um there were
probably a number of them that uh

326
00:24:56,080 --> 00:25:02,400
challenged it and we are now I think
it's I guess one of two that

327
00:24:59,919 --> 00:25:07,679
successfully defended uh the plan that
we put forth. So it's been accepted by

328
00:25:03,919 --> 00:25:11,039
the state. So all that is good news. Um
what I can also share with you is that

329
00:25:09,360 --> 00:25:14,799
one of the things that's become abundant
abundantly clear to me and I think other

330
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:19,840
members of the committee is that um we
cherish our green space, our open space.

331
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:25,520
Um we love our parks, we love our
trails, we love the aesthetics uh of of

332
00:25:23,039 --> 00:25:31,120
the township. Uh so one of the factors
that we took into it was not to set

333
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:34,960
aside and make vulnerable unpar
undeveloped parcels of land that have

334
00:25:33,120 --> 00:25:39,760
environmental sensitivity that have
trees mature trees on it. An attractive

335
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:43,520
comp component and this is one of
multiple components that we looked into

336
00:25:41,360 --> 00:25:46,640
is that uh the the sites that we
selected are already developed. They're

337
00:25:45,120 --> 00:25:51,679
already impervious coverage. There's
asphalt covering that land there. It

338
00:25:49,679 --> 00:25:55,440
wouldn't affect any environmentally s
sensitive areas. we would not be cutting

339
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:59,840
down trees. We would not be reducing our
open space. So, that was a factor that

340
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:03,679
went into it. Another factor, and I
think Mayor Roland had um alluded to it,

341
00:26:01,919 --> 00:26:06,640
was we already have existing
transportation there.

342
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:11,600
» That that tends to be a variable that
comes into the mix. It's not a pre

343
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:15,200
prerequisite in every application, but
we have another bonus element, which is

344
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:20,000
that the transportation already exists
there. So we can piggyback that without

345
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:24,080
any potential accretive cost in the
event we have affordable housing plans

346
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:28,640
that come to fruition in other
locations. It it's sort of ideal because

347
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:33,120
it's a short pops given away to Madison
train station. Um Chadam is a little

348
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:37,840
further down the road, but again there's
pre-existing transportation logistics

349
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:41,760
already in place uh in that general
vicinity. So those are two other

350
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:46,000
components that certainly went into
penalty of variables that we looked at

351
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:53,120
uh in order to make what we believe to
be um uh a reasonable plan. Uh a third

352
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:57,520
I'll share is pre-existing utilities. So
for example um the things that carved

353
00:26:55,600 --> 00:27:02,080
out get carved out or are lands that
don't have any sewer system. For

354
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:07,279
example, uh this already had uh existing
sewer system connections. So that uh

355
00:27:05,279 --> 00:27:12,480
that lends itself to be a plausible
plan. and in our in our ability to put

356
00:27:09,679 --> 00:27:16,000
forth a plausible plan. Um those were
that was another consideration that we

357
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:20,880
took into account in order to make as
far as finalizing it to these select

358
00:27:18,799 --> 00:27:26,320
lots. So I hope that explains a little
bit about our thinking. Um

359
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:32,640
I think at the end of the day the hope
and desire is uh the some level of

360
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:37,039
retail dynamics will certainly be there
in the event again a plan comes before

361
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:43,279
the planning board. Uh it would ideally
be a mixeduse uh uh development. Um and

362
00:27:41,279 --> 00:27:48,720
it would also benefit the residents
there would benefit from uh existing uh

363
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:52,400
logistics uh and the development also be
more reasonable in terms of ultimate

364
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:57,440
cost and any potential burden to the
township because existing uh utilities

365
00:27:54,960 --> 00:28:01,679
already are in place over there. So I
think that um probably hopefully sheds a

366
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:06,080
little bit more light on uh some of the
parameters that we're looking at as we

367
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:10,080
were looking considering a multitude of
different sites.

368
00:28:08,159 --> 00:28:14,320
» Another thing I just like to add is that
this also goes in front of the planning

369
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:17,200
board. So it was not just only our
committee. There's a series of checks

370
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:21,039
and balances. So it goes in front of the
planning board as well. And it wouldn't

371
00:28:19,120 --> 00:28:25,200
be here if it wasn't passed through the
planning board as well.

372
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:28,880
And to those points, any development
plan for that area would have to go back

373
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:31,919
to the planning board. So just so
everybody's aware, any plan if the

374
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:35,840
developer comes in and wants to do
something over the ShopRite site or over

375
00:28:34,159 --> 00:28:38,720
the Ace Hardware site, they would have
to go to planning board with those

376
00:28:37,039 --> 00:28:42,240
sites.
>> And speaking of the planning board, the

377
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:47,240
planning board did consider all three of
these ordinances to be consistent with

378
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:47,240
the master plan

379
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,960
» or by the same.

380
00:28:52,320 --> 00:29:00,320
Hello.
>> Hi. My name is Tommy Anelme an SL Mi. Uh

381
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:04,880
live on Shunvike and directly adjacent
to one of the properties in question.

382
00:29:02,799 --> 00:29:10,320
So, a couple questions. I understand
what's going on with the overall picture

383
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:20,960
here. Um my questions are multiple a
couple questions. Um one is the overlay

384
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:26,080
onto the existing zoning. Um,
if the business owners are not willing

385
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:33,200
to do anything and you don't get these
affordable housing numbers up, what is

386
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:38,240
plan B? Or is there is there a plan B?
Um, cuz I've seen them go imminent

387
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:41,760
domain and try to take over places. I'm
hoping it would never go that route

388
00:29:39,919 --> 00:29:47,840
being that we live in Chattam Township
and not, you know, somewhere else for

389
00:29:44,799 --> 00:29:53,520
lack of a better term. Um, my other
question is being adjacent to my

390
00:29:49,279 --> 00:29:58,000
property and and and having gone through
hoops to get variances because of the

391
00:29:56,159 --> 00:30:01,840
2acre minimum or whatever it is in Green
Village, I had to go 9 months trying to

392
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:07,840
get variances and permits just to put a
single family house on a 1acre lot. And

393
00:30:04,399 --> 00:30:11,679
so the idea of having 37 units right
next to my house that could be three

394
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:16,159
stories tall and that's what it says,
not two and a half, but three in that

395
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:21,120
area. Um, I I have some cons questions
and concerns because it it just it

396
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:25,440
doesn't fit with where we're at right
now and it doesn't fit the neighborhood.

397
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:28,159
And you know, Green Village, as they
said, is a little different than

398
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:32,159
downtown Township. We I'm know I'm on
the border. Madison's across the street,

399
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:37,120
but you know, we rely on these shopping
centers. And and the last part of that

400
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:42,159
question or part or last part of what I
had to say was I have spoke to a couple

401
00:30:39,679 --> 00:30:46,880
of the property owners that didn't even
know this was happening.

402
00:30:43,919 --> 00:30:50,399
Um, I know that's public notice, but I
got a certified letter in the mail while

403
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:55,600
I was on vacation last week and I really
found out about it yesterday. So, I

404
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:59,120
mean, I was talking with a couple of the
business owners there and they had no

405
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:03,279
idea that this was even happening. So,
that concerns me because I just what

406
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:06,720
concerns me is where is the next level
of this? If the business owners decide

407
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:10,159
they don't sell, where where are you
going to put these units? And again, I'm

408
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:17,200
concerned about having a three-story
unit next to my house. Plain and simple.

409
00:31:14,159 --> 00:31:23,200
I can answer off the bat two of those
very easily. Pursuant to the municipal

410
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:31,039
land use law, we we were required and I
personally oversaw the notice of every

411
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:38,640
person within 200 ft of the affected
areas. So that was and it was also

412
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:44,399
noticed um in all of the normal public
notice ways. the letter was above and

413
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:48,480
beyond everybody who was affected by
this matter. So that's why you did get

414
00:31:46,559 --> 00:31:53,519
and it was sent via certified and
regular mail. So that's the first um

415
00:31:51,519 --> 00:31:59,760
that's the first answer. The second
answer is I I want to make sure you

416
00:31:56,080 --> 00:32:06,720
understand the difference between a the
property that is going to be built the

417
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:12,480
threestory triplex and an overlay zone.
So when the Fair Housing Act was amended

418
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:18,880
and everything was codified and put into
law, everybody understands that there

419
00:32:15,279 --> 00:32:24,480
are places such as Chattam that have
challenges and not a lot of vacant land.

420
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:28,159
Two specific challenges we had in Chadam
was not only the vacant land, but the

421
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:32,799
source service area. There's large
portions of Chadam which are not in the

422
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:38,559
sore service area and those areas cannot
be used for affordable housing because

423
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:47,039
there's no sore service there. What
these overlay zones are encompassing are

424
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:53,840
an option. We are not required to build
the units that are in the over that are

425
00:32:50,799 --> 00:33:00,960
contemplated in the overlay zoning. All
we have to do is provide a realistic

426
00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:07,120
opportunity for affordable housing in
those areas. This doesn't mean we are

427
00:33:04,399 --> 00:33:13,519
being forced to build anything in those
areas. What it means is that that is an

428
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:18,159
option to someone who owns it, an option
to somebody who may want to purchase it.

429
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:20,799
That doesn't mean it's getting built. It
doesn't mean that if it doesn't get

430
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:25,760
built there, we have to build it
somewhere else. The only project we are

431
00:33:23,279 --> 00:33:29,200
required to build is that three-unit
triplex that we discussed right at the

432
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:34,720
beginning of the meeting. Everything
else is is called unmet need. Because of

433
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:40,000
our RDP, our realistic development
potential and the vacant land adjustment

434
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:46,240
that we received by law, we are only
required th to build those three units.

435
00:33:43,679 --> 00:33:50,399
The rest we had to provide zoning for
which we did through the overlay zoning.

436
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:54,080
So, I just want to make sure you
understand the difference between an

437
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:59,440
overlay zone and realistic development
and and what we actually have to build.

438
00:33:56,240 --> 00:34:03,919
We have to build our RDP unmet need. We
just have to zone for. It doesn't mean

439
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:09,760
it's getting built. It doesn't mean that
we have developers lined up. It means

440
00:34:06,399 --> 00:34:15,599
that we as a township have provided the
realistic opportunity by zoning for

441
00:34:13,839 --> 00:34:20,480
those units.
No man, you know, I understand that. I

442
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:25,440
understand that completely. But my
question is at what point does this next

443
00:34:22,720 --> 00:34:30,159
stage of the affordable housing kick in
where you have to meet another number

444
00:34:28,240 --> 00:34:33,760
» there? There isn't.
>> So this this level four that you're

445
00:34:32,240 --> 00:34:36,159
doing this preliminary then why are we
bothering doing it if we don't need to

446
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,320
do it?
>> Because we are doing what we need to do.

447
00:34:37,839 --> 00:34:42,399
We are
>> we required by law to do it. But it also

448
00:34:40,079 --> 00:34:47,119
says we're required by law in the next
stage at some point to add more

449
00:34:43,919 --> 00:34:51,200
affordable housing. So that's my point.
Some point this is going to have to be

450
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:55,520
pushed to become more affordable
housing. I I'm okay with that. But I

451
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:58,960
just want to know like what that time
frame is. You're saying that then we're

452
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:01,200
doing this overlay and it's just they're
not going to do anything then.

453
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:04,880
» If I may.
>> I'm just I'm curious.

454
00:35:03,119 --> 00:35:06,880
» Just to clarify. So the state of New
Jersey there's been a series of

455
00:35:06,079 --> 00:35:10,560
lawsuits.
>> Yeah. over history, decades in New

456
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:14,320
Jersey, starting with what's known as
the Mount Mount Laurel decision origates

457
00:35:12,720 --> 00:35:19,280
in Mount Laurel. And that's what's
really set the stage for this affordable

458
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:20,320
housing in New Jersey in what's known as
rounds.

459
00:35:19,839 --> 00:35:25,920
» Understood.
>> Each round is composes of a number of

460
00:35:23,839 --> 00:35:28,400
years. This round is a 10-year period.
Right.

461
00:35:26,240 --> 00:35:32,720
» Right. We finish the third round. Each
round depending on how the state

462
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:37,280
legislature and governor decide they
want to handle that round. Um we'll come

463
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:41,280
up with a set of rules and parameters
and a new process for it.

464
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:44,320
» Right now we are in the fourth round.
We've done what we need to do for the

465
00:35:43,119 --> 00:35:46,800
prior rounds.
>> No one knows what the next round

466
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,960
entails.
>> So then

467
00:35:47,599 --> 00:35:53,520
» there could be another governor. There
could be another legislature. There

468
00:35:51,119 --> 00:35:57,359
could be so many different things that
could change in New Jersey and in the

469
00:35:55,839 --> 00:36:01,680
country that we don't know what's going
to happen in the four fifth round or

470
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:06,000
there may not even be a fifth round, but
likely there will be. All that we're

471
00:36:03,599 --> 00:36:09,599
required to deal with right now is the
fourth round and the requirements under

472
00:36:07,839 --> 00:36:13,599
the fourth round and and those
requirements of the fourth round are as

473
00:36:12,240 --> 00:36:18,160
our attorney explained has been
discussed realistic development

474
00:36:15,359 --> 00:36:23,359
potential an RDP which is just a
mechanism to allow through zoning

475
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:26,880
opportunities ways that developers
property owners buyers sellers can

476
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:30,400
potentially do things because the
current zoning does not allow for it.

477
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:34,880
The argument has been in New Jersey that
towns don't allow for zoning because of

478
00:36:33,119 --> 00:36:38,720
twoacre requirements, oneacre
requirements, all these different things

479
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:44,079
says you can't build affordable housing
in New Jersey because the restrictions

480
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:48,880
are such that they preclude it and don't
want it. So in this round it says you

481
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:52,480
have to provide for an RDP and that's
what towns are doing through these

482
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:57,359
overlay zones or other mechanisms.
That's all we have to do in that regard.

483
00:36:54,880 --> 00:37:01,599
Then there's the regard of actually
units that you do have to develop those

484
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:05,359
obligations and that's what we are
obligated to do. So the two aren't

485
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:10,480
really related. It's not that we're
going to then be forced to do the things

486
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:13,119
that are in the RDP in this round. They
were totally different. You're looking

487
00:37:11,599 --> 00:37:16,800
at your vacant land analysis. You're
looking at what as uh you know

488
00:37:15,119 --> 00:37:20,640
committeeman Choy had explained what
circumstances may lend themselves to

489
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:24,640
actual development. Uh so they're
they're two different things just so

490
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:29,040
we're not confusing those. The overlay
zone that we're dealing with tonight is

491
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:33,359
just to ensure that the zoning does not
preclude affordable housing. And so the

492
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:37,359
zoning that we're creating that allows
affordable housing is being done so in a

493
00:37:35,839 --> 00:37:40,880
way that the density
>> understood.

494
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:44,240
» Right. Can allow for a developer to meet
based on the size of the land, based on

495
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:47,920
all these different factors, the height,
the the size of the land, all these

496
00:37:45,839 --> 00:37:51,440
different options to allow for a
developer to build

497
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:56,800
» what's known as realistic. And what goes
into realistic? the market conditions,

498
00:37:53,839 --> 00:38:00,320
the utilities, um you know, from good
planning, right? Good sound planning. We

499
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:04,240
we retained the services of a
professional planner, not just the

500
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:08,000
township committee here, but also the
planning board. and they have to review

501
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:13,119
that according to the master plan to see
are the locations and the plan that

502
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:17,280
you're putting forward together uh sound
planning planning that makes sense in

503
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:21,920
the state of New Jersey and makes sense
because what ends up happening is we get

504
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:26,720
sued and we did get sued all these other
towns because entities actually are

505
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:31,760
saying you're not doing enough. What
you're saying is not good enough. It's

506
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:35,920
not realistic enough and we want you to
do more. And that's what we fought and

507
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:39,680
we said, you know what, we have a solid
foundation. We did our due diligence.

508
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:43,040
This has been going on since 2024. We've
been actually doing a lot of work

509
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:47,440
through planners, through meetings,
public meetings just like this, planning

510
00:38:45,119 --> 00:38:52,160
board meetings, public hearings, uh, and
and and presentations for the committee

511
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:56,560
to show why and how we got to this point
and to then be able to defend it. And we

512
00:38:54,320 --> 00:39:01,599
were able to defend it successfully. So
the where we are at today is probably

513
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:05,040
not ideal. Nobody likes it, but it's
just the reality of where we are in New

514
00:39:03,119 --> 00:39:09,280
Jersey and the obligations that this
governing body and the residents and the

515
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:12,960
communities have to face and they have
to deal with it and they have to forally

516
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:19,119
accept it. And so that's what the plan
is today. This overlay zone, okay, is

517
00:39:15,839 --> 00:39:25,200
not a mandate to build. It's just a
mandate to allow developers now or over

518
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:29,359
the next 10 years. And as uh committee
meld said in the third round we had

519
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:34,560
created another overlay zone and in that
period nobody's built over there. Either

520
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:39,200
the economics weren't suitable, they
didn't have a desire, they were happy

521
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:43,839
with the way it was. Um and that's
exactly what could happen with this. But

522
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:48,560
this governing body is proposing under
this ordinance to create that plan for

523
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:52,000
the next 10 years.
>> And I understand it. I understand it

524
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:56,400
completely. And and I'm a general
contractor by trade. I do heavy highway

525
00:39:53,839 --> 00:39:59,920
bridges and um have done development
types of places. So I understand the

526
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:04,160
infrastructure very well. I understand
why you picked the place. My concern was

527
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:08,160
not so much of you know how it was
picked or why it was picked. My concern

528
00:40:06,240 --> 00:40:09,839
again is like what is the next step in
stage four

529
00:40:08,720 --> 00:40:12,480
» but that's why you keep saying you
understand that's why I've explained

530
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:16,400
there is this is the next stage this
>> so this I'm just I just wanted to

531
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:20,880
clarify that nothing there's not going
to be a push in five years. if I if I

532
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:24,640
can. Nobody. There's no action item for
us to go to the ShopRite development and

533
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:29,040
say,
>> "Look, I get I get my food every day

534
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:33,839
shop right. I get my haircut at these. I
get the stuff." Like, nobody is putting

535
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:39,280
them out of business. If the property
owner of that development decides to

536
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:42,079
call it quits and Shopright goes out of
business and Dunkin Donuts full of shop,

537
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:44,960
» I understand.
>> Then, and they want to put a development

538
00:40:44,079 --> 00:40:49,760
there, they're
>> they have the opportunity to do that. I

539
00:40:46,240 --> 00:40:54,000
get that. to former mayor uh my choice
point uh we hope that it's a mixeduse

540
00:40:52,240 --> 00:40:58,160
development because we all unit
>> of course we don't and okay that was a

541
00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:02,960
clarification that I was looking for
because again I'm a planner and so I

542
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:06,960
wanted to nip this in the bud so I knew
what was going on and again it it does

543
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:10,560
directly affect my house because I'm
literally sharing a border with these

544
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:14,400
five commercial properties on the corner
of Green Village Road in Shike so having

545
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:18,560
a three-story building staring in my
backyard is not something I'm happy

546
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:21,440
about. So, I'm just that's that's
>> it may not be a three story building.

547
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:24,800
» It may not be and and I could fight in
zoning at that point if it ever goes to

548
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:28,240
that point. So, I that's why I just want
to make sure that we weren't going

549
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:30,960
further than I thought we were. So,
thank you for your time.

550
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:35,920
» Thank you.
>> And just for perspective, the the

551
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:41,280
allotment is for 10 units per acre. The
Arbor Green property is 24 units an acre

552
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:44,960
and the Charlie Brown site is 20 units
an acre. So just so you have perspective

553
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:48,480
in terms of what it would potentially
look like relative to what's there

554
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:54,400
» the property next to me 37 acres that's
why I came up very

555
00:41:52,000 --> 00:42:02,560
» just a quick question
if somebody offers Oh Jim Viello Popular

556
00:41:58,319 --> 00:42:10,640
Lane if someone offers the shopping
center where ACE is now $20 million a

557
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:15,040
developer and they accept it. Does that
mean they already have approval to put

558
00:42:12,079 --> 00:42:17,839
up a three-story building?
>> No, they would still have to go through

559
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:21,520
all the municipal land use approvals
that are required by law. They don't get

560
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:26,640
a
>> but but the but once it's done, they

561
00:42:25,359 --> 00:42:30,880
have the ability to go through the
process, the normal process, and then if

562
00:42:29,359 --> 00:42:35,599
it's accepted, they can build whatever
they want or whatever they

563
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:38,800
» they cannot build. No, they cannot build
whatever they want. They have to follow

564
00:42:37,119 --> 00:42:42,720
the zoning that I
>> understand that. But the zoning now is

565
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:46,400
basically saying you can put up
buildings that are a couple stories high

566
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:50,160
for affordable housing, right?
>> Well, it's not and no, it's not for

567
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:55,359
affordable housing. Somebody could come
in and put a and and put affordable

568
00:42:52,640 --> 00:43:00,079
housing there, but it's mixed use with
um and inclusionary, which means it

569
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:02,640
would be both market rate and
affordable.

570
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:07,040
» So, they could do what's across the
street from the train station in

571
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:10,240
Madison. They could have some buildings
underneath that are, you know,

572
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:13,440
» stores
>> and put three or four stories of

573
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:17,680
apartments on top.
>> They cannot put three or four stories of

574
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:21,839
apartments on top. It can only be 36 ft
high. So if there are commercial on the

575
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:23,839
bottom, they're
constrained

576
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:28,000
» two stories on top.
>> Yeah, they'd be constrained by and

577
00:43:26,079 --> 00:43:33,680
they're also constrained by the amount
of the density. So they would have to

578
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:38,240
look and see how big the lot is. You
still no matter no matter what it is,

579
00:43:35,839 --> 00:43:43,960
you still cannot go above 10 units per
acre.

580
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:43,960
» Okay. Thank you.

581
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:52,520
» Come on.

582
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:08,720
My name is Paul Wayne. WHN 689 Shunpike
Road. I live just a little past the 200

583
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:15,839
foot boundary.
I have a few comments. Um

584
00:44:13,119 --> 00:44:20,400
I guess uh that might be summed up with
the fact that uh I think Hickory Tree

585
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:25,200
has already done its duty as far as
affordable housing has gone.

586
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:33,839
We've put up with an enormous
development across the street.

587
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:38,480
I think we've done our duty. Anyway,
why does the new uh the new zone include

588
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:42,160
a wellestablished bank building and a
church?

589
00:44:40,319 --> 00:44:47,760
I doubt that the bank will give up its
land, and the church may not be subject

590
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:52,560
to eminent domain.
There's really isn't enough land here

591
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:57,359
for a serious housing development, much
less a mixeduse development that will

592
00:44:55,359 --> 00:45:05,079
require parking.
in addition to what the residents need.

593
00:45:00,319 --> 00:45:05,079
It seems to smack of spot zoning.

594
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:16,000
Uh I'm also puzzled that the ordinance
includes a front yard setback of 30 ft

595
00:45:12,240 --> 00:45:22,319
but no uh no sideyard setback. There is
a setback mentioned in the other

596
00:45:17,599 --> 00:45:26,319
ordinance but it's only five feet.
So any house or building that's going to

597
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:33,200
be put in there is going to be
shoehorned into the the site.

598
00:45:30,079 --> 00:45:38,079
There are the obvious considerations. U
there are other sites. I don't know you

599
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:44,880
you've probably investigated all of them
but u the golf course might give up some

600
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:50,480
of its land. There is a space between
the Chattam Club and Juniper

601
00:45:47,839 --> 00:45:55,760
which has two houses on it which is
quite large. I don't know whether there

602
00:45:52,400 --> 00:46:00,160
are wetlands on it or not. Um, you
should also consider the loss of the

603
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:03,839
professional offices.
Um,

604
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:08,640
a lot of people in the town use those
offices. There are medical people, there

605
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:13,920
are psychiatrists, educational
specialists,

606
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:19,599
uh, my optometrist is there. Uh, and
there's a dentist.

607
00:46:16,240 --> 00:46:23,200
Uh, I don't know where they'll go. Um,
and then of course there's the problem

608
00:46:21,359 --> 00:46:28,720
of traffic.
Uh, it's not really desirable to

609
00:46:25,599 --> 00:46:33,119
concentrate more traffic in that area. I
have trouble getting out of my driveway

610
00:46:30,319 --> 00:46:36,800
in the morning or getting into my
driveway in the evening or getting out

611
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:41,119
of my driveway in the evening. I often
have to drive

612
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:46,720
right when I want to go left and make a
U-turn someplace else.

613
00:46:44,319 --> 00:46:54,240
In a word, I don't think this is a
desirable

614
00:46:49,520 --> 00:47:00,400
uh option or a serious realistic option.
There really isn't enough space there

615
00:46:56,000 --> 00:47:04,800
for for anything really.
That's all.

616
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:09,440
» I just want to clarify a few things for
you. There is the sideyard setback. If

617
00:47:07,359 --> 00:47:14,720
you read under D, all standards and
requirements in the underlying B1 and

618
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:19,760
PI2 zones shall be met unless they are
superseded. So there are sideyard

619
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:24,720
setbacks that will be retained from the
zoning that is the underlying zoning

620
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:29,040
already. So it won't be shoehorned into
anything. They still have to um follow

621
00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:33,920
the sideyard setbacks that are in the
underlying zoning. The only thing that

622
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:38,160
foot 10. So the sideyard setback would
be a little shorter than me.

623
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:42,119
Um
>> that's a ridiculous setback.

624
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:49,760
» Hey, but they they would that is the
setback that is the current setback that

625
00:47:46,720 --> 00:47:54,319
is in the zoning right now.
So whatever the setback is currently

626
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:59,119
remains the same for the sideyard.
>> This is a crowded area.

627
00:47:56,240 --> 00:48:04,480
» Okay. U the second the second thing you
you discussed was eminent domain. The

628
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:08,960
township is not under eminent domain is
undertaken by a municipality and the

629
00:48:06,720 --> 00:48:12,400
township has stated that we are not the
only

630
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:17,599
project we are required to build is the
three units

631
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:22,880
not anything here. If we were we there
is no mention of eminent domain because

632
00:48:20,319 --> 00:48:27,440
the township is not building anything in
this area. The township is not required

633
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:33,200
to build anything in this area. All the
township has to do is zone for the

634
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:37,280
opportunity for affordable housing in
that area. So, it's the second or third

635
00:48:35,599 --> 00:48:41,119
time I've heard eminent domain
mentioned. And I just want to make sure

636
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:44,559
everybody understands the township is is
not going to be the one who builds

637
00:48:42,559 --> 00:48:48,079
anything in this area. They're not
looking to build anything in this area.

638
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:52,400
Therefore, eminent domain is something
that is not on the table anywhere. That

639
00:48:50,079 --> 00:48:56,079
would be if the township was going to
build something, if they were the ones

640
00:48:54,160 --> 00:49:04,640
that if it was a municipally sponsored
project, which this zone is not. Um I I

641
00:49:01,599 --> 00:49:09,040
also heard you mention that we were
going to lose all of those professional

642
00:49:06,319 --> 00:49:14,640
offices that were there. Again, just
because it is zoned for this meaning

643
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:19,599
this for it does not mean that those
offices will leave. It is not a foregone

644
00:49:16,720 --> 00:49:26,960
conclusion that any of these businesses
will be displaced if somebody was to buy

645
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:31,359
these projects or the these parcels. My
understanding is they're all in use

646
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:36,000
currently and in order which means
they're more than likely making revenue.

647
00:49:33,599 --> 00:49:38,960
Um in order for
somebody to go in and buy these

648
00:49:37,599 --> 00:49:42,319
projects, it would have to be
financially feasible. And there are a

649
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:47,359
lot of things that would go into
penciling out a project. But you have to

650
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:53,040
remember when a when a developer buys
when a developer is required to put in

651
00:49:50,319 --> 00:49:58,720
affordable housing, they take a haircut.
They are they know going in that two of

652
00:49:56,559 --> 00:50:03,599
those units for every eight market units
they have to build, two of those

653
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:06,480
affordable units, they're not going to
make money. In fact, they're going to

654
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:10,640
probably lose money on those affordable
units. So that is something that

655
00:50:08,079 --> 00:50:14,720
developers when they are going to build
in any area they take that into

656
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:18,400
consideration. So there are financial
considerations that have to be taken

657
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:22,800
into account. Would they make more money
with it being a shopright or would it

658
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:27,760
make more money as you know there are
many considerations. So I I don't think

659
00:50:25,359 --> 00:50:31,119
um it is a foregone conclusion that
business and medical offices are going

660
00:50:29,359 --> 00:50:37,839
to close or that shopping centers are
going to close. It is an again it is an

661
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:44,400
option that is now um being proposed for
those areas.

662
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:50,079
» Well, it is true that if the bank and
the church do not cooperate or do not

663
00:50:48,559 --> 00:50:55,040
are not interested in selling their
land,

664
00:50:51,680 --> 00:51:00,400
there's only one owner who is.
Is that spot zoning? Again, we're not

665
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:03,280
we're not requesting that anybody goes
out of business or stops, but churches

666
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:07,599
might
>> I'm not requesting that either.

667
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:13,760
» Banks might close and and on top of
that, if they decide to leave and sell

668
00:51:11,599 --> 00:51:17,920
their property and they want to develop,
these are all multiple steps here. then

669
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:23,520
there are certain obligations, but
there's no action item for any of us to

670
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:28,960
see any of those businesses in any or
churches or sports clubs or anything

671
00:51:25,839 --> 00:51:34,640
else close. Uh these are things that we
all use as residents of Chattam Township

672
00:51:31,599 --> 00:51:40,280
and we like we'd like we we wish them
ongoing success.

673
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:40,280
» Thank you.

674
00:51:53,760 --> 00:52:00,400
Good evening. My name is Gary Young. I
live on Popular Lane and um I'm not

675
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:04,480
going to say the same things that
everybody else has said. I'm sure you've

676
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:09,119
heard enough to feel very satisfied as
to how you feel about this. However, um

677
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:13,760
I would just say to you, there are a
couple points I think that Mr. Banano

678
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:17,920
raised that are are very valid. One of
them being and the other people here um

679
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:23,599
one of them is I think there's an
overconentration

680
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:29,599
of this type of use uh pursuant to this
act that burdens us in that one corner

681
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:33,119
of the town which is very unfair and
discriminatory

682
00:52:31,119 --> 00:52:37,680
and because we don't have equal
opportunity here under the law. It's not

683
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:42,240
equal application. It's it's burdening
us much more than anybody else. And I

684
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:47,359
appreciate that. It's a pre-existing
condition. You didn't have these laws to

685
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:51,280
contend with in 1789 when they were
first developing channel. But you know

686
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:57,680
the you have to live with what exists
today. Okay? And

687
00:52:54,800 --> 00:53:03,119
living where we do having those
commercial properties adjacent to us is

688
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:09,599
a quality of life benefit.
Okay? So I I don't we feel threatened by

689
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:13,920
the potential loss of that use and it
makes our lives better. I can walk to

690
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:17,119
those stores, okay, which is a nice
thing to be able to do, especially if

691
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:20,800
you go in that shop, right parking lot
and see how dangerous it is. You don't

692
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:26,720
want to drive around in that parking
lot. So, um, I I object to this on the

693
00:53:24,720 --> 00:53:30,800
basis that I think it was an easy way
and I I believe there may not be an easy

694
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:35,760
way out, but I think it was about the
easy easiest way for you that you could

695
00:53:32,720 --> 00:53:39,760
conjure up, which is still I appreciate
that, but nevertheless, it's unfair to

696
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:44,800
us. And we have valuable properties. We
pay taxes. We pay a lot of tax. And I

697
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:49,920
think this would take away and
potentially prejudice the value of our

698
00:53:47,119 --> 00:53:54,559
properties. So, I would ask that you
keep that in mind in your consideration

699
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:57,920
because there's a consequence to that.
So, hopefully that won't be realized.

700
00:53:56,480 --> 00:54:03,280
The other thing I would just say to you
is by passing this ordinance, you put a

701
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:06,480
crack in the door. It in the absence of
this ordinance, someone would have to

702
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:10,559
make an application. I don't know if it
would require a change of zone, but it

703
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:14,800
would be something more burdensome by
virtue of having this statute in place.

704
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:19,280
If a developer comes along and says to
the owner of that property, um, we're

705
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:23,040
going to give you $20 million because we
want to build all this affordable

706
00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:28,079
housing. We'll make out like bandits.
I'm concerned about that. Um, because I

707
00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:33,520
think there is a possibility of that.
So, I would just ask that you reconsider

708
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:38,839
this because I consider at least some of
the impacts that it has on us. Thank

709
00:54:35,839 --> 00:54:38,839
you.

710
00:54:48,559 --> 00:54:56,160
All right. Any more comments?
>> Mayor, if I just uh if I can add just a

711
00:54:54,079 --> 00:54:59,839
point of clarification for the members
of the public as part of, you know, the

712
00:54:58,079 --> 00:55:04,880
the information I was offering before,
right? There is a consequence to not

713
00:55:02,640 --> 00:55:08,880
doing this or to doing something else.
And I think it's important to understand

714
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:15,680
what the consequence is of not doing
this. Um I can really speak to it,

715
00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:19,359
Jessica. If we do not do this, right, we
are at risk of what's known as builder's

716
00:55:17,599 --> 00:55:22,880
remedy lawsuits, right? We lose our
immunity

717
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:27,440
» from this from developers uh being able
to sue us and essentially say I want to

718
00:55:25,359 --> 00:55:30,800
build affordable housing anywhere I want
at pretty much whatever density I want.

719
00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:36,319
Is that correct?
>> Yeah. So what would happen is if we do

720
00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:40,400
not pass these ordinances this evening,
the

721
00:55:37,839 --> 00:55:46,960
we lose our immunity. Uh developer can
come in and say great, I want to I'm

722
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:51,760
going to build say they want to buy two
single family lots next to each other.

723
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:55,359
Um they would then be able to put
whatever they want with whatever

724
00:55:53,119 --> 00:56:00,720
setbacks they want. Um build as many
units as they want in order to um meet

725
00:55:59,359 --> 00:56:04,880
our affordable housing. and it'd be
under the guise of saying, "Well, I'm

726
00:56:02,160 --> 00:56:08,400
going to build a 100 units. Um, I'm
going to build a 100 unit project in

727
00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:14,319
this two family lot." And it happened in
other municipalities. And you would have

728
00:56:11,119 --> 00:56:19,040
a 100 units in a two family lot and you
would get your 20 units of affordable

729
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:24,079
housing, but you'd also get 80 units of
market rate units. So, you remember for

730
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:27,839
every two affordable units, you have
eight market rate.

731
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:31,599
» So, I think it's important to keep that
in mind. this governing body did not

732
00:56:29,599 --> 00:56:36,160
take the easy way out. This governing
body looked at also, you know, I I I

733
00:56:34,559 --> 00:56:39,680
hear some concerns and there are
legitimate concerns that there's fear

734
00:56:37,599 --> 00:56:43,200
that this may take away the shopping
plazas or somebody's going to come in

735
00:56:41,599 --> 00:56:48,079
here and think this is really lucrative,
but the reality of it is it is not

736
00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:53,359
lucrative to build affordable housing.
Affordable housing projects that are all

737
00:56:50,799 --> 00:56:58,319
affordable housing tend to require
pilots such as tax abatements. They

738
00:56:55,760 --> 00:57:03,440
require subsidies. They require grants.
They require a really uh you know

739
00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:06,640
lowincome housing credits. Uh a lot of
effort to build. So it is not a

740
00:57:05,119 --> 00:57:10,880
lucrative thing to just come in there
and say we want to build affordable

741
00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:15,599
housing. In fact, what does make sense
for a lot of developers and why this is

742
00:57:13,599 --> 00:57:19,440
considered and why the court agreed and
the special masters and the planners

743
00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:23,200
agreed that this is a realistic good
realistic opportunity is because you

744
00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:27,280
look around the state wherever there are
mixed uh developments where there's

745
00:57:25,119 --> 00:57:31,119
inclusionary zoning there does tend to
be a commercial element associated with

746
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:34,480
that because that is also where the
money is. So the fear that you're going

747
00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:37,119
to lose your professional offices, that
you're going to lose your businesses,

748
00:57:35,599 --> 00:57:41,920
that you're going to lose some of the
shopping districts is actually uh the

749
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:46,160
exact opposite. Those are the things. So
when when banks are looking to close,

750
00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:51,040
when office buildings are looking to
close, when grocery stores or cafes are

751
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:55,599
looking to close and the owner of that
property says, "Well, this is no longer

752
00:57:52,799 --> 00:58:00,000
sustainable for me." This is a lifeline
to ensure that those kinds of businesses

753
00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:04,400
stay in your community. That's what
makes them survive in a lot of places in

754
00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:08,960
New Jersey and why this is a not the
easy way but again the wellthoughtout

755
00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:14,079
realistic opportunity because otherwise
you end up with uh two, three, four

756
00:58:11,839 --> 00:58:18,400
multif family homes scattered throughout
the town in areas that probably will not

757
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:22,319
fit in with those characters of the
neighborhood and where potentially we

758
00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:27,280
lose our builder rem our immunity from
builders uh uh our builder's immunity

759
00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:29,440
I'm sorry and open the door to builder
lawsuits where then you can have

760
00:58:28,640 --> 00:58:34,319
development
of greater magnitude uh all throughout

761
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:37,119
the town.
I

762
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:43,599
» also just want to mention the financial
aspect. So, another fun topic tonight is

763
00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:48,880
our budget. And I'm a chief financial
officer. So, this is what I live and

764
00:58:45,599 --> 00:58:53,520
breathe and do seven days a week. It's
not easy to build the budget. And when

765
00:58:51,839 --> 00:58:59,119
you think about putting affordable
housing in an area like on the cliff of

766
00:58:56,400 --> 00:59:05,280
Snake Hill where we'd have to put in
sewers and transportation that like the

767
00:59:01,200 --> 00:59:09,760
costs were were inordinate. And to um
former mayor Choy's point, this is an

768
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:12,960
existing overlay. We're not required to
do anything. But I think something that

769
00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:16,480
we also always consider, something
that's always at the top of my mind is

770
00:59:14,880 --> 00:59:19,440
the financial aspect. You talk about
your taxes. I don't want to raise your

771
00:59:17,839 --> 00:59:25,359
taxes either. and you're paying enough
taxes. But it's a reality that when

772
00:59:22,400 --> 00:59:31,280
these are imposed, this is a law that we
have to comply. We have paid. We have

773
00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:36,960
the most fantastic planners and lawyers
that have honestly really saved us

774
00:59:34,720 --> 00:59:40,160
because every municipality was sued.
Every single one in New Jersey, over

775
00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:44,880
400, and we were successful.
>> The last time you'll see me my face

776
00:59:41,920 --> 00:59:50,079
again up here. I I promise you. Very
eloquent description. Dominic Manano

777
00:59:47,680 --> 00:59:54,000
very magnolia place
very eloquent description of what you

778
00:59:52,319 --> 00:59:58,160
had needed to do and what you were
trying to do to save the township from

779
00:59:55,839 --> 01:00:04,079
being sued for things and so forth. The
issue is the concentration the

780
01:00:00,640 --> 01:00:10,480
concentration of these these areas
you've identified as a new business zone

781
01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:14,319
businesses plus affordable housing. It's
not the fact we appreciate the fact that

782
01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:19,119
we need to have affordable housing, but
you've concentrated it and I I would

783
01:00:17,040 --> 01:00:22,559
really like to know what other areas you
might have looked at. Now, you probably

784
01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:25,760
are not required to share that with
citizens.

785
01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:30,079
» Every and there's no other place in
Chadam Township. No other place. You

786
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:34,160
talked about transportation. That's an
interesting point. More people, more

787
01:00:32,079 --> 01:00:37,680
transportation. That whole area coming
through Shunpike, I'm sure you guys do.

788
01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:42,079
If you live in the township, you go
shopping at Chai. It's it's very

789
01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:47,040
concentrated. The roads are not are not
Shanpike is a narrow road and all of the

790
01:00:45,040 --> 01:00:51,760
concentration, more people, more
transportation. You need to go back and

791
01:00:49,839 --> 01:00:57,599
think about where else can you do this?
Because here's the issue. Once this is

792
01:00:54,000 --> 01:01:01,520
passed and somebody decides to sell shop
or the or ace hardware development

793
01:00:59,839 --> 01:01:04,000
there, they begin they decide they're
going to sell because somebody's going

794
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:07,200
to put a lot of money in front of them.
And I appreciate the idea that nobody

795
01:01:05,839 --> 01:01:11,440
makes a lot of money on affordable
housing. And I have one other issue. Is

796
01:01:09,200 --> 01:01:16,799
there anything here that is there
anything in this ordinance that

797
01:01:13,599 --> 01:01:22,640
prohibits the township of Chadam from
either donating borrowing money to help

798
01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:27,440
pay for the affordable housing? If a
developer comes in and says, you know

799
01:01:24,720 --> 01:01:32,160
what, we could do this. We need another
$5 million. Is there anything in this

800
01:01:29,839 --> 01:01:36,559
ordinance that would prohibit Chattam
Township from providing the money,

801
01:01:34,079 --> 01:01:40,440
providing a loan, or borrowing itself to
be able to fund that?

802
01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:46,079
» Turn back.
>> This is a zoning ordinance. This is not

803
01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:48,960
that isn't something that would be in a
zoning ordinance.

804
01:01:47,839 --> 01:01:54,079
» No, it wouldn't be in a zoning
ordinance. I'm not suggesting it is, but

805
01:01:51,920 --> 01:01:56,160
is is the current the current board,
current council.

806
01:01:54,799 --> 01:02:01,520
» I would go so far as to say that you
really can't do that. Uh yeah, but

807
01:01:58,799 --> 01:02:04,960
there's no real again
obligated to develop in this overlay

808
01:02:03,839 --> 01:02:10,319
zone.
>> A developer could come here and ask, but

809
01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:13,680
there's no obligation to do that.
>> There isn't an obligation

810
01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:18,160
» by the same way that this let's say this
governing body were to pass any law.

811
01:02:15,920 --> 01:02:22,000
There's no nothing set in stone, right?
And if the state down the road in the

812
01:02:19,760 --> 01:02:26,079
fifth round says, "Hey, you have to do
this or a different set of individuals

813
01:02:24,160 --> 01:02:31,119
are sitting up here in 10 years," they
can easily undo that. So there's and as

814
01:02:29,359 --> 01:02:35,599
I said, I think I would go so far, not
legally, but you really can't do that

815
01:02:33,680 --> 01:02:39,280
because
you're kind of negating a hypothetical

816
01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:44,960
that really doesn't even exist.
>> Okay. Okay. Understood. All right. Said

817
01:02:42,799 --> 01:02:50,160
my piece. Thank you.
>> I I just want to say one more thing. Um

818
01:02:47,359 --> 01:02:56,640
I work with multiple municipalities. I
have worked with multiple munic multiple

819
01:02:52,160 --> 01:03:02,079
municipalities. Chattam is one of two
that successfully challenged the

820
01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:06,160
obligation. Two municipalities that
successfully challenged their

821
01:03:03,520 --> 01:03:14,319
obligation, had it downwardly adjusted
and then refused because fair share was

822
01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:18,799
not being um realistic. We refused to
settle with fair share. I only know two

823
01:03:16,720 --> 01:03:24,799
places in the entire state of New Jersey
that did not settle with fair share. We

824
01:03:22,079 --> 01:03:31,520
have a very compliant plan. We have a
defendable plan. The court has approved

825
01:03:27,280 --> 01:03:38,079
our plan already. And uh your council,
your committee has gone above and beyond

826
01:03:35,200 --> 01:03:44,720
has stood up for the residents with not
only this plan and the obligations. And

827
01:03:41,039 --> 01:03:48,799
there have I I I cannot there's not much
I can say

828
01:03:47,280 --> 01:03:53,760
other than that to let you know that
your council defended everything that

829
01:03:50,799 --> 01:03:58,319
they could and they went up above and
beyond. You know, where everybody else

830
01:03:55,359 --> 01:04:03,599
was settling um everybody else was, you
know, maybe oh, it's only a few more

831
01:03:59,920 --> 01:04:06,880
units. The committee refused to do that.
They believed in their numbers. They

832
01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:10,960
believed in the professionals and they
believed in the law. and you should be

833
01:04:09,280 --> 01:04:14,839
grateful that they stood up to fair
share and the builders association.

834
01:04:14,960 --> 01:04:22,079
» Jim Biello Paper,
um the precedent you were talking about,

835
01:04:19,920 --> 01:04:26,640
is it my understanding that we paid $6
million for the Charlie Brown property,

836
01:04:24,480 --> 01:04:31,440
gave it to a developer, and then gave
him a two

837
01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:37,039
$2 million 20-year loan interest free
because that came right out of our

838
01:04:32,799 --> 01:04:39,359
taxpayer dollars pockets. So if that
happened then there is a precedence for

839
01:04:39,039 --> 01:04:42,640
it.
>> Those are some roundabout numbers. You

840
01:04:40,880 --> 01:04:47,520
are correct. But that is different from
the overlay zone that was to meet the

841
01:04:45,039 --> 01:04:51,839
actual development obligation that the
town had in the third round which was

842
01:04:49,599 --> 01:04:56,720
those number of units that uh former
mayor and current committeewoman Ewald

843
01:04:54,000 --> 01:05:01,760
just spoke about. The the obligation for
this round is just those four those four

844
01:04:59,680 --> 01:05:05,680
units that we're building the three four
and we're getting that extra credit for.

845
01:05:03,520 --> 01:05:09,920
That's all our obligation is to develop
under this round. So since we own that

846
01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:13,760
land and we're going to be working with
the developer to develop that, that's

847
01:05:11,920 --> 01:05:17,520
all our obligation is for here.
>> Well, I think what Mr. Banana might have

848
01:05:15,280 --> 01:05:21,920
been asking is that in the future, would
we ever do the same thing?

849
01:05:19,599 --> 01:05:26,960
» You this governing body, future
governing, we don't know what could

850
01:05:23,680 --> 01:05:30,960
happen in a situation where there is an
obligation to develop

851
01:05:28,799 --> 01:05:35,359
» with this with respect to that overlay
zone. There is no obligation for us to

852
01:05:33,200 --> 01:05:40,319
develop to do something like the Charlie
Brown or something like these three

853
01:05:37,520 --> 01:05:44,559
units. That's the current obligation for
for what we're dealing with now and over

854
01:05:42,160 --> 01:05:50,319
the next 10 years. In the fifth round,
should that come when that comes in 10

855
01:05:47,839 --> 01:05:54,319
nine years or so, right? That's a whole
different set of numbers that we'll have

856
01:05:52,000 --> 01:05:57,839
to work with. They may say you have one
unit you have to build. They could say

857
01:05:55,680 --> 01:06:01,839
you have 20 units. We don't know yet,
right? And at that point, we'll have to

858
01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:05,760
deal with the reality of, okay, what
land could we do? What, you know, the

859
01:06:03,680 --> 01:06:10,480
town had to buy that land in order to
then turn it over. We don't have much

860
01:06:08,160 --> 01:06:14,079
land to develop. We don't have land that
we own that we could develop, uh, much

861
01:06:12,640 --> 01:06:17,839
else other than what we're looking at
for these three units.

862
01:06:15,200 --> 01:06:21,520
» Okay. Thank you, U, mayor. um
>> and and we looked at those dreams

863
01:06:19,839 --> 01:06:25,119
because that did make sense from a
financial perspective rather than having

864
01:06:22,960 --> 01:06:28,799
to also go out and then buy some land
from a property owner at really

865
01:06:27,280 --> 01:06:33,359
ridiculous
expense. This made the most sense to to

866
01:06:31,440 --> 01:06:36,000
be in the best interest of the taxpayers
at the lowest cost we felt.

867
01:06:35,599 --> 01:06:40,079
» Thank you,
>> Mayor. We do have a hand raised online

868
01:06:37,520 --> 01:06:43,599
that hasn't spoken yet. Can we uh let
them speak?

869
01:06:40,720 --> 01:06:49,920
» Absolutely. Yes. Thank you.
>> Okay. phone number beginning with area

870
01:06:45,920 --> 01:06:55,200
code 973. You are clear to speak if you
unmute.

871
01:06:52,799 --> 01:06:59,880
Name and street, please.
>> Uh Tom Evans, Birchville Drive.

872
01:07:00,079 --> 01:07:08,079
» Am I in line to speak here?
>> Yes, it's your turn.

873
01:07:04,799 --> 01:07:13,200
» I I'd like to ask you you referred to a
triplex tonight. Uh everything I've

874
01:07:11,280 --> 01:07:20,400
heard prior to this, you've talked about
one-story group homes and it wasn't

875
01:07:16,559 --> 01:07:27,920
clear at all how many units are in those
threestory triplexes. You just gave away

876
01:07:24,000 --> 01:07:36,880
two lots of land over on River Road. How
many triplexes are going into each lot?

877
01:07:32,480 --> 01:07:42,160
How many bedrooms are in each building
>> is my first question.

878
01:07:39,359 --> 01:07:45,520
So, just to clarify, um I think there's
just a little confusion. What we're

879
01:07:43,520 --> 01:07:52,240
looking at on the property that would be
adjacent to the police department, uh is

880
01:07:48,880 --> 01:07:56,720
one building, three units.
Each of those units would have to, and

881
01:07:54,720 --> 01:08:00,720
correct me, Jessica, if I'm mistaken,
it's one one-bedroom, one twobedroom,

882
01:07:58,799 --> 01:08:05,359
and one threebedroom. Correct.
>> I believe that's the um distribution.

883
01:08:02,799 --> 01:08:11,280
Yes. And so it would just be like a town
home or, you know, one one building, one

884
01:08:08,240 --> 01:08:16,159
structure that would include uh those
three units.

885
01:08:14,400 --> 01:08:19,839
» I'm I'm sorry. I thought I'm confusing
it with the River Road.

886
01:08:18,159 --> 01:08:24,000
» What is going in on River Road?
>> River Road round three. Yeah, that's

887
01:08:21,520 --> 01:08:28,960
that's separate. I apologize. Um is that
>> River Road is three group homes with

888
01:08:26,239 --> 01:08:34,000
four bedrooms each.
>> Okay. How many stories?

889
01:08:32,799 --> 01:08:35,920
» One story.
>> Each one's one. Did somebody ask how

890
01:08:35,440 --> 01:08:39,359
many stories?
>> How many stories? Each one's one story

891
01:08:37,839 --> 01:08:44,480
for the group calls.
>> Oh, very good. Thank you very much. One

892
01:08:41,679 --> 01:08:50,319
last question. I I'm amazed that
regarding the Hickory Tree Overlay zone,

893
01:08:47,199 --> 01:08:56,640
no one is speaking about the fact that
within five years, and you keep

894
01:08:53,199 --> 01:09:02,719
diminishing this as a 10-year window, if
nobody comes forward, within 10 years to

895
01:08:59,679 --> 01:09:06,239
destroy the area there within five
years,

896
01:09:04,319 --> 01:09:11,120
they can come back and completely
redefine the density. Isn't that the

897
01:09:08,880 --> 01:09:16,239
fact? That's what I've heard from the
Chattam Burough discussions as well as

898
01:09:13,759 --> 01:09:22,799
Kendra's presentations here in the
township. It's a five-year look back.

899
01:09:20,239 --> 01:09:27,440
So, you keep talking about 10 years. If
they don't come forward to develop it,

900
01:09:24,719 --> 01:09:35,600
you're free and clear. But within five
years, they can re redefine to increase

901
01:09:30,880 --> 01:09:42,880
the density to attract the development
within a 5-year window. Would you please

902
01:09:38,960 --> 01:09:47,920
clarify if I'm correct or wrong on that?
>> Yeah, there is a midpoint review in five

903
01:09:45,520 --> 01:09:51,199
years to make sure that we have done
everything we're supposed to do, which

904
01:09:49,520 --> 01:09:56,159
includes building that three-unit
triplex, make sure that um we've deed

905
01:09:54,320 --> 01:10:01,040
restricted it appropriately. That's part
of that. Um, they'll also look, and you

906
01:09:58,560 --> 01:10:06,239
are correct, they'll also look to see if
something has been built here um at this

907
01:10:03,679 --> 01:10:13,440
location and if the overlay zone has
been adopted. Um, but the standard is

908
01:10:10,320 --> 01:10:19,600
the realistic development potential. It
is that we have provided for the zoning

909
01:10:16,880 --> 01:10:26,480
and that it keeps with the character of
the area. So, one of the things that we

910
01:10:23,120 --> 01:10:31,520
took offense to when we refused to
settle with Fair Shares, they wanted to

911
01:10:28,640 --> 01:10:37,360
make the density in this area 25
dwelling units per acre. Where we have

912
01:10:34,400 --> 01:10:44,080
it at 10, they wanted 25. They kept
trying to um get us to go higher and

913
01:10:41,280 --> 01:10:48,480
higher. And we were able to successfully
defend to the special adjudicator, the

914
01:10:46,080 --> 01:10:54,800
program judge, and the superior court
that 10 units per acre is what's

915
01:10:51,280 --> 01:11:00,000
appropriate for this area.
And we have a court order which says so,

916
01:10:58,080 --> 01:11:04,560
» right? I just I just think you should
refer to that five-year time frame

917
01:11:02,560 --> 01:11:12,719
rather than the 10-year because you're
being disingenuous and and deluding the

918
01:11:07,920 --> 01:11:12,719
residents of the town. Thank you.

919
01:11:14,320 --> 01:11:20,800
To clarify though, it is a 10-year
round. The fourth round is by

920
01:11:17,920 --> 01:11:26,320
legislation under the afford the the
fair housing act a 10-year

921
01:11:23,360 --> 01:11:30,239
uh and then with all I say all the
previous rounds there's reviews there's

922
01:11:28,239 --> 01:11:34,320
checkpoints the court wants to whether
it's the court at one point it was ka at

923
01:11:32,080 --> 01:11:38,080
one point it was the courts through fair
share they always want to make sure that

924
01:11:36,400 --> 01:11:40,719
you're submitting reports you're
updating your spending plan you're

925
01:11:39,600 --> 01:11:45,280
showing that you're doing what you need
to do so um yeah I think that's that

926
01:11:44,239 --> 01:11:49,360
said about that
>> and one thing that we gained by not

927
01:11:47,280 --> 01:11:53,040
settling with fair share is in every
other municipality that did shuttle

928
01:11:51,040 --> 01:11:57,560
settle with fair share, they have to
answer to fair share. We do not.

929
01:12:00,320 --> 01:12:05,440
» Two, we are one of two municipalities
out of over 400

930
01:12:04,080 --> 01:12:08,880
» that I know of. Yeah.
>> That we know of

931
01:12:07,199 --> 01:12:13,920
» that didn't settle and did not enter
into immediate agreement incent.

932
01:12:10,800 --> 01:12:19,040
» I just want by by you know not settling
too. I mean the the the demand that was

933
01:12:15,920 --> 01:12:26,719
on the table by fair share was a far
more burdensome and ownorous um proposal

934
01:12:23,199 --> 01:12:33,360
than even what the law required and uh
everything from uh the the numbers to

935
01:12:30,080 --> 01:12:38,800
the mechanisms to the reporting um all
of which would have resulted in greater

936
01:12:36,400 --> 01:12:45,520
density more burdens to the residents
and greater expense to the taxpayers.

937
01:12:41,679 --> 01:12:49,760
So, um, the fact that we were, uh, we
were able to prevail and have the

938
01:12:47,280 --> 01:12:55,600
agreement of the the program judge and
the special master the the for the

939
01:12:51,840 --> 01:12:59,679
state, uh, I think speaks a lot about of
our plan and what we've put forward.

940
01:12:57,679 --> 01:13:04,239
» We did not take it lightly. We did not
just rely on our lawyers and our

941
01:13:01,840 --> 01:13:09,120
planners to tell us what to do. We
educated ourselves. We had a lot of

942
01:13:06,239 --> 01:13:12,400
conversations. I'm grateful to have the
experience of people that went through

943
01:13:10,320 --> 01:13:18,480
the third round to be able to do this
with the fourth round which was a little

944
01:13:13,679 --> 01:13:21,040
bit different. So I I I don't want I I
just I don't know. I guess I take it

945
01:13:19,920 --> 01:13:24,159
personally that people think that we
just snapped our fingers and and made an

946
01:13:22,640 --> 01:13:29,440
easy decision. It was not an easy
decision. It takes a lot of time and

947
01:13:26,400 --> 01:13:34,719
effort and money quite honestly to do
the right thing. This was the right

948
01:13:31,120 --> 01:13:39,360
thing to do. We fought for it and we I
wouldn't just go to court and fight to

949
01:13:36,800 --> 01:13:42,719
fight. We had to make sure that we were
buttoned up and tight. We were all felt

950
01:13:41,040 --> 01:13:48,320
very confident that we were buttoned up
tight. We had the right plan that was

951
01:13:44,640 --> 01:13:54,239
right for Chattam and we won. So I'm I'm
proud of that.

952
01:13:50,640 --> 01:13:59,360
If I just may uh say something um for
the benefit of of the public, I think I

953
01:13:56,719 --> 01:14:04,000
think the overarching concept for for us
um as it pertains to affordable housing

954
01:14:00,960 --> 01:14:09,760
was for the township um to be able to
manage process uh along our desires and

955
01:14:07,920 --> 01:14:15,920
requirements as best we could again
under the umbrella of the state law. Uh

956
01:14:14,080 --> 01:14:22,800
metaphorically we wanted to drive the
bus. Um the third round was much more

957
01:14:19,120 --> 01:14:27,040
complicated. Um there were uh there were
decisions plans that were done under

958
01:14:24,400 --> 01:14:31,840
duress. Um it was our hope and desire
that for fourth round we drive the bus.

959
01:14:29,520 --> 01:14:36,800
We dictate within the confines of the
law. Um we don't have all the answers

960
01:14:34,880 --> 01:14:40,960
because this is a 5-year checkpoint 10
year horizon. Things certainly may

961
01:14:38,960 --> 01:14:45,520
change at some point at some point or
multiple points along that time horizon.

962
01:14:43,360 --> 01:14:51,360
But but I think what this plan allows us
to do is meet the present need of

963
01:14:49,440 --> 01:14:55,040
effectively net three units. We'll be in
a good shape there. I see foreseeably um

964
01:14:53,679 --> 01:14:58,800
over the next several years with that
being completed, we'll we'll finish the

965
01:14:56,960 --> 01:15:03,360
group homes which will comply will fully
satisfy our third round. Uh and I think

966
01:15:00,880 --> 01:15:09,840
we can present to um the jurisdictional
bodies uh a township that is complying.

967
01:15:05,679 --> 01:15:16,719
we're making best efforts to to manifest
uh the the the ultimately the spirit of

968
01:15:12,239 --> 01:15:22,239
of the affordable housing um uh laws. Um
what is that to say that uh if if

969
01:15:20,400 --> 01:15:26,560
nothing happens in this overlay then we
failed? I I don't think so. And if

970
01:15:25,040 --> 01:15:31,199
something has happened there, have we
failed or succeeded? Not necessarily the

971
01:15:29,600 --> 01:15:35,760
right. I don't think that's a fair way
to look at I think at the end of the

972
01:15:32,800 --> 01:15:39,840
day, we looked at what we had within our
control and we wanted to drive the bus.

973
01:15:37,440 --> 01:15:45,440
We wanted to maintain options as opposed
to being forced to do something under

974
01:15:42,480 --> 01:15:51,040
the perils of builder's remedy or having
no options and no andor close to no time

975
01:15:48,480 --> 01:15:57,679
and having to make bad decisions. So
right now this is a plan that complies.

976
01:15:54,239 --> 01:16:03,120
We have our commitment today is three.
The plan complies. Uh we have time, we

977
01:16:00,880 --> 01:16:08,719
have flexibility. We are driving the
parameters on density. It is a modest

978
01:16:05,920 --> 01:16:14,239
and achievable number of 10 units per
acre. Most larger size developments are

979
01:16:12,159 --> 01:16:18,560
20 plus units per acre. It is a massive
density um that I think would not be in

980
01:16:17,040 --> 01:16:24,239
keeping with the characteristics of the
township. So we are driving and managing

981
01:16:21,920 --> 01:16:27,760
uh you know controlling the variables.
Um we're in a good place. We're in the

982
01:16:26,080 --> 01:16:31,520
driver's seat. We don't have all the
answers. Uh but we comply. We have a

983
01:16:29,520 --> 01:16:36,320
plan. We're not going to get pushed up
against um

984
01:16:33,920 --> 01:16:40,880
a a short fuse or a time clock that's
going to run out on us. We I think

985
01:16:38,719 --> 01:16:46,080
we're, you know, I think we're in a very
good spot here. Uh we have a three-unit

986
01:16:43,040 --> 01:16:51,440
commitment. Um
and we've got a plan that that satisfies

987
01:16:49,360 --> 01:16:55,760
that that was just approved by court and
and we're we're we're in a great place

988
01:16:53,520 --> 01:17:03,120
is is how I look at it. Um, I can
respect concerns about concentration and

989
01:16:58,320 --> 01:17:07,440
and congestion um uh about possible
changes of character of that particular

990
01:17:05,040 --> 01:17:12,159
area.
It it's an it's an overlay zone um and

991
01:17:10,480 --> 01:17:20,159
it complies with the plan and we've
fulfilled our obligation today. Um

992
01:17:16,080 --> 01:17:23,360
and u I I think for the residents who
I think when when you look at these

993
01:17:21,840 --> 01:17:29,280
ordinance it's a tendency to
catastrophize and and imagine a 600 unit

994
01:17:26,800 --> 01:17:33,760
building there that that um you know
forbodingly overlooks the sidewalks and

995
01:17:31,199 --> 01:17:38,719
shadows off the entire Sh Pike Road. Um
that's certainly not the case. Um we've

996
01:17:36,719 --> 01:17:43,600
put together something that complies. Uh
whether or not it comes to fruition,

997
01:17:40,800 --> 01:17:48,159
that's not within our perview. um it
complies and our current demand, our

998
01:17:45,600 --> 01:17:52,800
current requirement is three units. We
are in a fantastic position as we look

999
01:17:50,560 --> 01:17:58,320
across the state. Uh I think you about
560 569 municipalities.

1000
01:17:55,840 --> 01:18:03,120
We're in an excellent position. Um and I
and I want you to kind of walk away

1001
01:18:01,600 --> 01:18:06,400
with with a little bit appreciation of
where this township is with regard to

1002
01:18:04,880 --> 01:18:10,400
fourth round housing, affordable
housing. Um, we've driven the bus, we've

1003
01:18:08,560 --> 01:18:16,239
controlled the parameters, uh, we've
successfully, uh, litigated and won. Um,

1004
01:18:14,320 --> 01:18:19,840
and
I think business as usual, the

1005
01:18:17,920 --> 01:18:25,199
businesses over there will continue. Uh,
the property owners, um, have uh, you

1006
01:18:22,880 --> 01:18:29,040
know, added benefit whether or not uh,
uh, but the property rights are still

1007
01:18:26,880 --> 01:18:33,679
intact. You can still be patrons of the
businesses there. Uh, it will be

1008
01:18:30,719 --> 01:18:37,679
business as usual.
But, you know, uh I appreciate all the

1009
01:18:35,679 --> 01:18:44,880
questions and comments. I do understand
your concerns. Um at the end of the day,

1010
01:18:42,719 --> 01:18:47,360
certainly putting uh the worst thing
would be for this community to say,

1011
01:18:46,000 --> 01:18:51,040
"Well, gee, we're going to punt this.
We're going to put our heads in the

1012
01:18:48,239 --> 01:18:57,760
sand. We're not doing anything." That I
think is the uh Defcon one scenario

1013
01:18:54,320 --> 01:19:01,600
where now the state now the state
believes we are acting bad faith. We are

1014
01:19:00,000 --> 01:19:06,159
in a very favorable position. we're
we're looked favorably upon because we

1015
01:19:03,600 --> 01:19:11,920
we actively took this on. We
intelligently

1016
01:19:07,760 --> 01:19:16,400
uh debated it. We we uh we put forth
revised numbers um and they agreed with

1017
01:19:14,080 --> 01:19:20,800
us. So I think they they see the
township as acting in good faith as it

1018
01:19:18,640 --> 01:19:26,239
pertains to this overarching endeavor
here that every town must comply with.

1019
01:19:23,280 --> 01:19:32,400
Um I think it would be a big mistake uh
to say well gee do nothing just ignore

1020
01:19:29,040 --> 01:19:35,679
it you know and decide you know hope you
know for a hail Mary that something

1021
01:19:33,760 --> 01:19:40,960
changes down the road we don't believe
it will in any material way as far as uh

1022
01:19:38,239 --> 01:19:46,880
the general obligation the details of it
certainly will change but um uh you know

1023
01:19:44,719 --> 01:19:51,920
I think we're in a good position um to
be able to negotiate whatever changes

1024
01:19:48,640 --> 01:19:58,000
whatever unknowns may come down the pike
um and And uh I I personally am uh you

1025
01:19:56,560 --> 01:20:03,120
know proud you know committee woman
Ewald was on that subcommittee. I we did

1026
01:20:00,880 --> 01:20:07,199
you know we did um there were a lot of
lessons learned from prior experiences

1027
01:20:05,280 --> 01:20:11,360
collective experiences on affordable
housing matter in the township and we we

1028
01:20:09,920 --> 01:20:14,239
said you know enough is enough. We're
going to be smart about it. We're going

1029
01:20:12,400 --> 01:20:19,440
to be aggressive and and we're going to
challenge and we're going to uh put

1030
01:20:16,640 --> 01:20:25,679
something that um uh makes sense for the
township. it it's not something that's

1031
01:20:22,640 --> 01:20:32,960
perfect, but it's it's reasonable. It's
it's acceptable. Um, and I think we're

1032
01:20:28,960 --> 01:20:35,120
by and large happy with the outcome.
>> We move on to the next person waiting to

1033
01:20:34,560 --> 01:20:38,679
speak.
>> Yes. Thank you.

1034
01:20:41,120 --> 01:20:46,960
» Jessica.
>> Yeah. Hi, it's Jessica Romeo and on Pine

1035
01:20:44,480 --> 01:20:50,000
Street. I just want to say, you know,
you guys have put in the the elected

1036
01:20:48,640 --> 01:20:53,840
officials, the township committee, and
the professionals have obviously put in

1037
01:20:51,679 --> 01:20:57,280
tons of work and thought, and I think
you should be applauded for your

1038
01:20:55,040 --> 01:21:01,120
efforts. Um, I think we should all be
grateful for the work you put in, the

1039
01:20:59,440 --> 01:21:05,800
care, and the thought you put towards
this. So, thank you. That's all.

1040
01:21:07,840 --> 01:21:12,320
» Thank you, Jessica.
>> Any other questions?

1041
01:21:11,440 --> 01:21:18,800
» Yes.
>> Okay.

1042
01:21:15,280 --> 01:21:22,239
Yeah. Hi, Jen McN on um Noi Avenue. Uh
just to speak uh how Jessica, thank you

1043
01:21:20,880 --> 01:21:24,960
to everyone for the hard work. I have
been listening to the comments. I've

1044
01:21:23,360 --> 01:21:29,040
been following this and I think if
you've closely followed the past history

1045
01:21:26,880 --> 01:21:32,560
of the affordable housing obligations in
the township, um we've been backed into

1046
01:21:31,120 --> 01:21:35,920
some difficult corners in the past. And
I think that people here, like Jessica

1047
01:21:34,239 --> 01:21:39,360
said, have put some really serious
thought and consideration um from the

1048
01:21:37,920 --> 01:21:43,040
township elected officials, from the
township uh management, uh our lawyers,

1049
01:21:41,600 --> 01:21:47,600
and everyone else, some incredibly
thoughtful um work into this. So, we do

1050
01:21:46,159 --> 01:21:50,560
have what Mike said, we are driving the
bus. In the past, we were not driving

1051
01:21:48,880 --> 01:21:55,040
the bus, and we had been backed into
some other situations. And this is

1052
01:21:52,639 --> 01:21:57,679
smart, and uh we're the obligation is
for three, which it probably could have

1053
01:21:56,239 --> 01:22:01,199
been if you look at other towns, a whole
heck of a lot more. Um, and I appreciate

1054
01:21:59,679 --> 01:22:07,880
everyone's time and thank you so much
for for all your hard work.

1055
01:22:04,639 --> 01:22:07,880
» Thank you.

1056
01:22:08,639 --> 01:22:13,920
» Anyone else? Mr.
>> That's all at the moment.

1057
01:22:12,480 --> 01:22:17,639
» Okay. Any other comments? Yeah,
>> one just

1058
01:22:19,040 --> 01:22:24,880
um again, Tommy, I saw me show my
growth. Um, just out of curiosity, and

1059
01:22:23,360 --> 01:22:29,840
this is just a legitimate question. I'm
not being facitious at all. If I were to

1060
01:22:28,080 --> 01:22:35,199
sell my pro, want to sell my property on
Shan Pike Road, which is an acre, would

1061
01:22:32,239 --> 01:22:40,639
I be able to get my property resed to
build 10 units on it? That's my That's a

1062
01:22:37,199 --> 01:22:45,679
legitimate question.
>> No, that would be spot zoning.

1063
01:22:43,600 --> 01:22:52,159
» That would be so a So, but
>> singling out one specific property

1064
01:22:48,080 --> 01:22:56,000
without merit, without foundation. So,
for example, there's things under, you

1065
01:22:53,679 --> 01:22:59,679
know, state law like redevelopment law,
correct? You know, there's properties in

1066
01:22:58,000 --> 01:23:02,719
need of rehabilitation, properties in
need of redevelopment. There's a lot of

1067
01:23:01,199 --> 01:23:08,520
criteria that has to be met,
>> even if it's a touching onto a property

1068
01:23:04,560 --> 01:23:08,520
that already has that zoning.

1069
01:23:08,800 --> 01:23:13,600
» What do you I'm sorry.
>> So, my border would be a property that

1070
01:23:11,760 --> 01:23:15,040
has the zoning once it goes into place.
So,

1071
01:23:14,159 --> 01:23:17,199
» So, you're saying you want to be
included in

1072
01:23:15,760 --> 01:23:21,600
» I'm just saying could I be included in
it down the road if I chose to be

1073
01:23:19,199 --> 01:23:24,000
» in the overlay zone? Yeah, you could.
Jessica,

1074
01:23:22,960 --> 01:23:27,840
» I'm just curious.
>> You could apply.

1075
01:23:25,920 --> 01:23:31,840
» Um, no, not automatically. You could
apply for a variance through

1076
01:23:30,400 --> 01:23:35,600
» I just wanted to know if the option was
there when I sold down the are you are

1077
01:23:34,719 --> 01:23:39,360
you in the business?
>> You could apply for a variance.

1078
01:23:37,360 --> 01:23:42,960
» No, I'm in residential that touch.
>> Well, that's why I just want to clarify,

1079
01:23:40,719 --> 01:23:46,960
right? Because this is an overlay zone
for that business. One thing once that

1080
01:23:44,960 --> 01:23:50,159
overlay zone is created if I'm touching
that

1081
01:23:48,159 --> 01:23:55,199
» overlay zone applies to the what I'm
trying to explain it just one second the

1082
01:23:52,400 --> 01:23:58,000
overlay zone applies to this business
district correct

1083
01:23:56,159 --> 01:24:01,600
» you are not in the business zone you are
have you have residential zoning

1084
01:24:00,159 --> 01:24:05,280
» correct I was asking the question if I
could do that though

1085
01:24:03,040 --> 01:24:10,000
» that would have that's that's a
residential zone

1086
01:24:07,360 --> 01:24:13,199
» like I mean he can he'd have to he'd
have to go through the motions to

1087
01:24:11,280 --> 01:24:16,480
successfully improve the case in order
to becluded in that is what

1088
01:24:15,199 --> 01:24:21,280
» but you're you're part of the
residential zone. We're trying to

1089
01:24:18,320 --> 01:24:24,080
overlay zone to the business zone, not
the residential zone.

1090
01:24:22,480 --> 01:24:28,639
» I understand that. But my question is 5
years from now if the building starts

1091
01:24:26,560 --> 01:24:31,679
happening or if something happens and I
want to decide, hey, maybe I don't want

1092
01:24:30,239 --> 01:24:37,920
to live next to this area or maybe I'm
just tired of the congestion. Can I take

1093
01:24:34,480 --> 01:24:44,159
my property and apply for this reszoning
because I can get a lot more selling my

1094
01:24:40,239 --> 01:24:49,120
one acre 10 units on it.
>> I'm just saying I didn't know

1095
01:24:46,639 --> 01:24:53,920
» anybody can apply for zoning anywhere
doesn't mean you you have to show the

1096
01:24:51,600 --> 01:25:00,719
positive and negative criteria in order
to get that. Now I want to be very clear

1097
01:24:57,280 --> 01:25:04,560
something that Mr. Shahadi said earlier.
If we were to not pass these ordinances

1098
01:25:02,800 --> 01:25:09,360
this evening and lose our immunity,
anybody could do what you just said.

1099
01:25:06,560 --> 01:25:15,520
Anybody in any area of the township
could sell their single family 1acre lot

1100
01:25:12,320 --> 01:25:19,520
and jam as many units as possible into
their 1acre lot by passing these

1101
01:25:17,760 --> 01:25:26,320
ordinances and by having a compliant
plan. We stop that process. we, you

1102
01:25:24,080 --> 01:25:30,400
know, currently if you if that is, you
know, the road you want to go on and you

1103
01:25:27,760 --> 01:25:34,480
want to apply for a variance um for the
bulk standards of your of your property,

1104
01:25:32,639 --> 01:25:38,080
you're welcome to do that. And in that
case, the zoning or the planning board,

1105
01:25:36,080 --> 01:25:42,800
depending on what your um what you're
seeking, what variance is would

1106
01:25:40,880 --> 01:25:47,440
adjudicate the merits of your
application. But if we are not if we do

1107
01:25:45,040 --> 01:25:51,280
not do what we're statutoily required to
do this evening,

1108
01:25:49,360 --> 01:25:54,960
we don't get to make those decisions.
the court and a special judge comes in

1109
01:25:53,520 --> 01:25:58,600
and makes those decisions for us. We
lose our zoning power.

1110
01:26:00,320 --> 01:26:05,840
» Thank you, Jessica.
Are there any other questions? Mr.

1111
01:26:03,679 --> 01:26:12,040
Lanti?
>> No hands raised.

1112
01:26:06,960 --> 01:26:12,040
» Okay. Anyone else questions, comments?

1113
01:26:14,400 --> 01:26:21,679
» Rick Carlin, Shunpike Road. Wife and I
have lived here for 34 years.

1114
01:26:19,920 --> 01:26:26,159
Um,
very quick questions. One, it sounds

1115
01:26:24,239 --> 01:26:32,480
like, because I haven't done a ton of
homework, I have too much other

1116
01:26:28,239 --> 01:26:36,480
homework, that the township is subject
to these requirements

1117
01:26:34,560 --> 01:26:42,639
separately from Chattam Burough.
Correct. Okay.

1118
01:26:39,600 --> 01:26:49,360
And um the only other thing I was going
to say is you can tell by the questions

1119
01:26:46,080 --> 01:26:54,159
I'm I'm in basically 100% agreement with
what's being said.

1120
01:26:51,520 --> 01:27:00,320
But so two years from now I decide to
sell my home.

1121
01:26:56,159 --> 01:27:05,920
It's zone single family residential.
I don't think I'm going to attract

1122
01:27:03,280 --> 01:27:11,920
anywhere near the market value that I
would get prior to this happening.

1123
01:27:08,239 --> 01:27:18,560
especially if there's any perceived
uh idea by the market that it's indeed

1124
01:27:16,159 --> 01:27:24,800
going to be developed, you know, and
it's almost like what Tom said, we need

1125
01:27:21,280 --> 01:27:31,280
flexibility. Um it it could turn all the
way around. You you lose the shopping

1126
01:27:26,960 --> 01:27:35,120
center, one of them or whatever.
And I've noticed from the beginning,

1127
01:27:33,040 --> 01:27:38,960
affordable housing is always located
near a commercial area. As you mentioned

1128
01:27:37,360 --> 01:27:44,400
before, some of these people don't have
cars, whatever. That's where they're

1129
01:27:42,159 --> 01:27:51,120
putting them, not just here, all over.
Right. Well,

1130
01:27:47,679 --> 01:27:55,520
if we're we're only like four lots uh
those those of us that are being

1131
01:27:53,040 --> 01:28:01,920
affected by this uh right nearby.
There's others in different directions,

1132
01:27:57,520 --> 01:28:06,480
but we're we're we're all neighbors. and
you know to have the ability uh to do

1133
01:28:04,800 --> 01:28:10,480
other than just single family cuz
somebody will come and yeah I'll buy

1134
01:28:08,239 --> 01:28:15,840
your property for half the price you
know I mean that's that's what I could

1135
01:28:13,360 --> 01:28:23,600
hear so
I worked a long time to uh and bought in

1136
01:28:19,600 --> 01:28:28,400
Chattam for that reason so that you know
it would be a lot more valuable than

1137
01:28:26,000 --> 01:28:31,920
what might happen
that's it thank

1138
01:28:34,960 --> 01:28:39,159
any other questions, comments.

1139
01:28:39,199 --> 01:28:46,080
» Okay. So, do I close the public hearing?
Is there a motion to close the public

1140
01:28:44,400 --> 01:28:47,920
hearing related to the final adoption of
ordinances?

1141
01:28:47,360 --> 01:28:53,840
» You control.
>> I can do that. I'm closing it.

1142
01:28:51,120 --> 01:28:56,560
» Okay. So, then we're going to do each
one of these individually. Motion to

1143
01:28:55,760 --> 01:29:00,719
adopt these.
>> Yes. Uh, and then we'll have to open the

1144
01:28:58,159 --> 01:29:07,880
public hearing for the next ordinance.
>> I'll make a motion to adopt 2026-05.

1145
01:29:04,639 --> 01:29:07,880
» I'll second.

1146
01:29:08,719 --> 01:29:13,840
» Mr. Alperitz,
>> yes.

1147
01:29:13,040 --> 01:29:15,520
» Mr. Short,
>> yes.

1148
01:29:14,560 --> 01:29:17,760
» Mrs. Ew,
>> yes.

1149
01:29:16,480 --> 01:29:19,440
» Deputy Mayor McHugh,
>> yes.

1150
01:29:18,400 --> 01:29:21,280
» And Mayor Roland,
>> yes.

1151
01:29:19,920 --> 01:29:26,639
» Motion passes.
>> Okay. Now, I'd like to open up the

1152
01:29:23,840 --> 01:29:31,000
public hearing for ordinance 2026-06
adding the AH1 zone.

1153
01:29:33,360 --> 01:29:37,040
» There was some overlap, but
>> there was overlap.

1154
01:29:35,440 --> 01:29:39,520
» There was a little overlap. Is there any
are there any questions online?

1155
01:29:39,120 --> 01:29:42,400
» No.
>> No questions. Okay. I will close the

1156
01:29:41,120 --> 01:29:47,120
public hearing related to ordinance
2026-06.

1157
01:29:44,400 --> 01:29:54,320
Uh, is there a motion to adopt? I'll
I'll move to adopt ordinance 2026

1158
01:29:51,520 --> 01:29:58,080
adding the over uh affordable housing
one zone.

1159
01:29:55,199 --> 01:29:59,840
» I'll second.
>> Mr. Auroritz,

1160
01:29:59,280 --> 01:30:01,440
» yes.
>> Mr. Troy,

1161
01:30:00,719 --> 01:30:02,960
» yes.
>> Mrs. U.

1162
01:30:02,480 --> 01:30:04,639
» Yes.
>> Deputy Mayor McHugh.

1163
01:30:04,159 --> 01:30:06,639
» Yes.
>> And Mayor Roland.

1164
01:30:05,840 --> 01:30:10,480
» Yes.
>> Motion passes. You

1165
01:30:08,880 --> 01:30:14,560
» I'd like to open the public hearing for
ordinance 2026-07

1166
01:30:12,880 --> 01:30:18,960
adding affordable housing overlay
district.

1167
01:30:16,639 --> 01:30:23,199
Yeah, there's some overlap. Any
questions online, Mr. Manti? Oh,

1168
01:30:21,520 --> 01:30:24,560
» I just like to thank him for letting us
speak.

1169
01:30:23,920 --> 01:30:28,320
» Oh, absolutely.
>> We uh we appreciate it. We do. It gets

1170
01:30:26,719 --> 01:30:32,440
boring when nobody's here and we
appreciate having a conversation.

1171
01:30:33,040 --> 01:30:39,679
» Have a good evening.
>> Thank you. Okay, we'll close the uh the

1172
01:30:36,880 --> 01:30:43,679
hearing for ordinance 2026-07.
Is there a motion to adopt? So move.

1173
01:30:43,440 --> 01:30:47,360
I'll
>> second.

1174
01:30:46,080 --> 01:30:48,719
Mr. Al Farrowitz,
>> yes.

1175
01:30:47,920 --> 01:30:50,239
» Mr. Troy,
>> yes.

1176
01:30:49,280 --> 01:30:52,000
» Mrs. Ewolf,
>> yes.

1177
01:30:50,800 --> 01:30:53,679
» Deputy Mayor McHug,
>> yes.

1178
01:30:52,560 --> 01:30:55,440
» And Mayor Roland,
>> yes.

1179
01:30:54,320 --> 01:31:02,080
» Motion passes.
>> Okay. You uh we will not move on to the

1180
01:30:59,679 --> 01:31:06,400
resolutions.
I don't know if you want uh one through

1181
01:31:04,320 --> 01:31:11,600
five, correct me if I'm wrong, are
basically updating the regulations

1182
01:31:08,639 --> 01:31:15,520
related to affordable housing. Um just
with the with the latest standards.

1183
01:31:13,520 --> 01:31:17,120
Those are That's correct.
>> Yes.

1184
01:31:16,400 --> 01:31:22,159
» Okay.
>> If I may, mayor, just number one, uh

1185
01:31:20,480 --> 01:31:27,199
2026-075,
that's actually related to the uh grant

1186
01:31:24,400 --> 01:31:32,000
application for Mammoth County Home for
the group homes.

1187
01:31:28,560 --> 01:31:36,320
» So there that's um uh the developer
Lucha wanted to apply for some

1188
01:31:34,639 --> 01:31:40,560
additional funding through the county
home program and that is a resolution

1189
01:31:38,320 --> 01:31:45,760
that's required by the governing body in
order to make that application. Uh two,

1190
01:31:43,040 --> 01:31:49,120
three, four, and five are implementing
resolutions as you mentioned, mayor, as

1191
01:31:47,679 --> 01:31:51,440
part of the fourth round.
>> Got it. That's right. Thank you very

1192
01:31:50,639 --> 01:31:56,239
much.
>> And number six is the library print.

1193
01:31:53,600 --> 01:32:02,080
» Yes.
>> Okay. Is there a motion

1194
01:32:00,560 --> 01:32:05,120
to approve? Do we do each one
individually? Could we do a little

1195
01:32:04,480 --> 01:32:09,199
» by consent?
>> Okay, we can do a consent. Is there a

1196
01:32:07,520 --> 01:32:12,199
motion to approve resolutions
2026-075767787980?

1197
01:32:14,880 --> 01:32:19,719
» So move.
>> I'll second.

1198
01:32:19,760 --> 01:32:22,639
» Mr. Al Perowitz,
>> yes.

1199
01:32:21,840 --> 01:32:24,480
» Mr. Troy,
>> yes.

1200
01:32:23,440 --> 01:32:26,480
» Mrs. Eel,
>> yes.

1201
01:32:25,040 --> 01:32:28,080
» Deputy Mayor Leu,
>> yes.

1202
01:32:26,880 --> 01:32:29,520
» And Mayor Roland,
>> yes.

1203
01:32:28,480 --> 01:32:32,320
» Motion passes.
>> Thank you.

1204
01:32:30,719 --> 01:32:38,159
» Now we can move on to the reports. And
do we want to hear from Rich first?

1205
01:32:35,440 --> 01:32:38,159
Rich.

1206
01:32:39,199 --> 01:32:45,280
Rich,
>> you read my mind. I was gonna So, we've

1207
01:32:42,400 --> 01:32:50,080
got uh Rich, come on up to uh to one of
these chairs. So, Rich Young, our the PW

1208
01:32:47,440 --> 01:32:55,440
superintendent. Um he's here also. I
believe we're joined I hope we're joined

1209
01:32:52,000 --> 01:32:58,159
by uh Zoom also with John Rushki as he
dial

1210
01:32:55,920 --> 01:33:03,199
» John. There he is.
>> Yes. So, both uh the engineer and the

1211
01:33:00,159 --> 01:33:08,400
superintendent are here. uh under public
works um we don't have any legislation

1212
01:33:06,000 --> 01:33:12,719
but we do have under discussion action
uh separate from this report discussion

1213
01:33:10,400 --> 01:33:18,719
on the compost facility and that's why
uh John is here because he's also been

1214
01:33:14,560 --> 01:33:24,560
assisting uh Rich and myself with the D
regulations uh associated with permits

1215
01:33:21,679 --> 01:33:29,840
for such facilities. So, um, Rich has
provided two memos and a spreadsheet.

1216
01:33:27,600 --> 01:33:34,159
Um, and Rich, unless you have anything
to open up with, we could just start

1217
01:33:31,760 --> 01:33:36,560
with questions. Let's go to questions.
>> Okay.

1218
01:33:35,440 --> 01:33:39,920
» So, you've been sitting here for an hour
and a half, so I'm going to question you

1219
01:33:37,840 --> 01:33:45,080
now.
>> Return the favor just like you drill

1220
01:33:42,080 --> 01:33:45,080
him.

1221
01:33:45,760 --> 01:33:51,840
» Yeah. Make it worth his while. Um, okay.
So

1222
01:33:49,920 --> 01:33:57,360
for for the the benefit of the
residents, the question is we want to

1223
01:33:53,920 --> 01:34:02,719
get rid of the mulch service.
uh you would still we would still take

1224
01:33:59,920 --> 01:34:07,840
in lease for composting from residents,
but we would eliminate the land uh

1225
01:34:05,840 --> 01:34:13,360
landscapers ability to buy a permit
which would allow them to

1226
01:34:10,639 --> 01:34:18,960
um and I guess my big thing and I'm sure
many residents experience this is is

1227
01:34:15,520 --> 01:34:23,600
there any way to recast this to monet to
better monetize because I know I had

1228
01:34:22,159 --> 01:34:28,560
asked my because we had a conversation
about this not too long ago um because I

1229
01:34:26,400 --> 01:34:33,280
was like I how can I pay my landscaper
to dispose of leaves when we have a

1230
01:34:30,080 --> 01:34:36,639
place to dispose of leaves and um when I
went to my landscaper and and the answer

1231
01:34:34,880 --> 01:34:40,400
was that they can dispose of the leaves
but it have to be coordinated because

1232
01:34:38,320 --> 01:34:44,560
you need to know what's rented.
>> That's part of the problem. Okay.

1233
01:34:42,239 --> 01:34:48,000
» Yeah. Yeah. So, uh the landscaper said
that you know first of all they're

1234
01:34:46,239 --> 01:34:51,600
collecting leaves all week and we're not
we're only open Tuesdays in the morning

1235
01:34:49,520 --> 01:34:54,560
and so it's not doesn't make sense. And
then of course if they're collecting an

1236
01:34:53,040 --> 01:34:59,040
entire truck full of these, how do you
know that the six yards that are in

1237
01:34:56,400 --> 01:35:02,239
there, the 10 yards are mine. Uh so
there was some complexity, but I really

1238
01:35:00,960 --> 01:35:05,760
felt like there was a value because
there's a lot of people, a lot of

1239
01:35:03,520 --> 01:35:10,320
residents paying to have their leaves
disposed though and you guys have to

1240
01:35:08,800 --> 01:35:14,080
grind up leaves for their residents who
dump their leaves anyway. So there's it

1241
01:35:12,000 --> 01:35:18,480
feels like there's an opportunity for
revenue generation in there somehow. So

1242
01:35:16,320 --> 01:35:21,120
I'd much rather my money go to the
township than there or else there's

1243
01:35:20,400 --> 01:35:25,760
leaves.
>> Yeah. With the with the leaf aspect, we

1244
01:35:23,440 --> 01:35:28,560
don't grind the leaves.
>> Okay.

1245
01:35:26,159 --> 01:35:34,639
» In the re in the spreadsheet I I
proposed was

1246
01:35:31,120 --> 01:35:40,639
we have wind rows of leaves that through
our D permit we have to flip once a

1247
01:35:37,199 --> 01:35:46,960
month. Regardless time of year, it's
once a month. Once that is done and it

1248
01:35:43,440 --> 01:35:54,560
breaks down, we contract with a local
vendor who takes it for free. But it

1249
01:35:50,639 --> 01:36:00,880
takes on the average two to three trucks
minimum and a front end loader two to

1250
01:35:57,840 --> 01:36:05,760
three days to do it. So we're providing
a service, but it's eating up a lot of

1251
01:36:02,800 --> 01:36:11,360
manpower. That's just for the less for
the mulch for the the brush aspect of

1252
01:36:08,400 --> 01:36:15,520
it. Residents are allowed to dump mulch
and then we turn into we we work with

1253
01:36:13,520 --> 01:36:20,239
the contractor to tub grind it to make
double ground mulch and then we sell it

1254
01:36:17,600 --> 01:36:23,760
back to the residents.
>> Well, that's from the residents dumping

1255
01:36:21,679 --> 01:36:25,760
mulch.
>> I didn't even know you could do that.

1256
01:36:24,960 --> 01:36:29,000
Okay.
>> Not mulch

1257
01:36:29,040 --> 01:36:34,960
to make.
>> Yes. Hey Rich, I I think it'd be

1258
01:36:32,560 --> 01:36:40,800
important to note that, you know, some
past operations and why where we're here

1259
01:36:38,000 --> 01:36:45,679
because there was a point where we had a
lower price and we were getting a lot of

1260
01:36:43,120 --> 01:36:49,920
developers coming in and it was just
overwhelming for the DPW to keep up with

1261
01:36:48,080 --> 01:36:53,199
it. And that's kind of why we raised
some of the rates to try to discourage

1262
01:36:51,520 --> 01:36:58,320
some of the commercial because if we if
we want to try to expand this operation,

1263
01:36:56,000 --> 01:37:02,320
it it's more than just our our existing
resources. You know, we scale back it.

1264
01:37:00,400 --> 01:37:06,080
We scaled back these operations once
before.

1265
01:37:04,239 --> 01:37:10,719
» And I asked the question as well and I
think it was there are only two

1266
01:37:08,800 --> 01:37:11,760
customers, two landscapers that
>> currently

1267
01:37:11,280 --> 01:37:17,119
» currently
>> there was two last year, two two in 24

1268
01:37:14,719 --> 01:37:23,199
and two in 25. But when these guys come
in, they come in half not happy.

1269
01:37:20,480 --> 01:37:28,080
» Under the proposal uh that Rich put
forward though where we would contract

1270
01:37:24,880 --> 01:37:34,000
with the MUA to handle the hauling away
of the leaves, the grass and the brush.

1271
01:37:31,040 --> 01:37:37,119
Uh we would not be doing any mulch.
Obviously, we've not been providing

1272
01:37:35,520 --> 01:37:38,880
mulch. Therefore, we don't need the tub
grinder anymore.

1273
01:37:38,480 --> 01:37:45,520
» Okay.
>> So, that would be saving correct. So

1274
01:37:40,880 --> 01:37:49,040
that would be uh saving uh about 15,000
uh a year,

1275
01:37:47,280 --> 01:37:53,280
» right?
Plus the man power to load that duck

1276
01:37:50,960 --> 01:37:56,560
grinder which takes about a week. So
it's one guy and a front end loader for

1277
01:37:55,280 --> 01:38:02,320
a week.
>> So we contract how do we pay the MUA? Is

1278
01:37:58,320 --> 01:38:04,800
it by the by the uh cubic MUA would be
believe a flat fee uh container?

1279
01:38:04,400 --> 01:38:09,360
Correct.
>> Flat fee container. It's $200 for the

1280
01:38:06,880 --> 01:38:13,960
pole just to show the grab it. Then it's
um right here.

1281
01:38:23,360 --> 01:38:32,159
It's roughly 485 a 30 yard container
which can consist of them pulling it,

1282
01:38:30,080 --> 01:38:38,159
taking it, and then bringing back
another one.

1283
01:38:34,239 --> 01:38:41,760
So the new setup would just be uh leaf
container, brush container. Is that

1284
01:38:40,159 --> 01:38:46,560
» it's it's the same service to the
residents except for the mulch.

1285
01:38:44,159 --> 01:38:53,360
» So no mulch deliverance and then and
then no use of your bodies um to do the

1286
01:38:52,239 --> 01:38:56,239
drum grinding.
>> Correct. And the cost of the drum

1287
01:38:55,040 --> 01:39:00,320
grinder itself
>> which is 3,000 a day.

1288
01:38:57,679 --> 01:39:06,320
» Yes. 3,000 a day. And then it would also
be that if you look at the alternate

1289
01:39:02,800 --> 01:39:12,400
option to perhaps get more use or more
expansion then you know that that's one

1290
01:39:08,880 --> 01:39:18,080
entrance for neighbors of vehicles and
trucks and those kinds of things and

1291
01:39:14,639 --> 01:39:22,080
this would um not necessarily shrink it
greatly because you still want to dump

1292
01:39:19,520 --> 01:39:27,040
the mulch or the brush and the leaves.
>> Um okay.

1293
01:39:23,920 --> 01:39:32,639
How many residents take advantage of the
mulch delivery?

1294
01:39:29,199 --> 01:39:37,920
» It's roughly including myself.
>> It's in the spreadsheet had 64 or 2025

1295
01:39:36,480 --> 01:39:41,199
to 64 res.
>> Yeah. And what's happening? We're

1296
01:39:39,760 --> 01:39:42,320
realizing that the numbers are going
down.

1297
01:39:41,840 --> 01:39:46,800
» Mhm.
>> And we're being left with the excess

1298
01:39:44,960 --> 01:39:50,960
that either we have to find home have
find a home for basically because

1299
01:39:48,880 --> 01:39:54,400
» John correct me if I'm wrong. the the
new uh permit doesn't allow us to leave

1300
01:39:53,520 --> 01:39:58,080
anything on the ground.
>> Yeah, we can't have storage. We can't,

1301
01:39:56,080 --> 01:40:01,760
you know, we can't maintain long-term
storage. And that that's what we have is

1302
01:40:00,000 --> 01:40:05,360
over the years, we've accumulated quite
a bit of material

1303
01:40:03,760 --> 01:40:09,040
because the material really isn't the
quality of material is poor. We we put

1304
01:40:07,360 --> 01:40:14,000
it through a tub grinder, but it's it's
really not a commercially grade um you

1305
01:40:11,920 --> 01:40:18,639
know, mulch that that a homeowner would
typically use. This this is you know

1306
01:40:16,000 --> 01:40:22,719
really is not a you know the quality the
material is very poor.

1307
01:40:20,800 --> 01:40:27,199
» We have that material that's sitting
there a while that people have not

1308
01:40:24,400 --> 01:40:33,280
necessarily taken advantage of uh coming
with their own buckets and taking it or

1309
01:40:29,119 --> 01:40:37,280
whether it be delivered um then indeed
um it sits there and with the new

1310
01:40:35,760 --> 01:40:40,960
regulation you can't let it sit there
necessarily

1311
01:40:38,960 --> 01:40:46,159
in the same way if you will or or
different. Uh, so does it is there a

1312
01:40:43,600 --> 01:40:49,679
cost to does somebody come take it for
free because of its quality or would we

1313
01:40:48,159 --> 01:40:54,159
have to pay to get rid of it?
>> We have to pay the year in.

1314
01:40:51,920 --> 01:40:57,760
» So you're looking roughly between 15 and
$20 a yard.

1315
01:40:55,679 --> 01:41:03,840
» Okay.
>> And we were charging $25 a yard.

1316
01:41:00,880 --> 01:41:06,080
» We were charging $25 for three yards
most of it.

1317
01:41:05,040 --> 01:41:10,080
» Okay.
>> So but this way they can't come and pick

1318
01:41:07,679 --> 01:41:13,440
it up either because we would
>> can't store it. We can't store it.

1319
01:41:11,840 --> 01:41:18,719
There's the part of the new requirements
are that if we're storing it, um John,

1320
01:41:16,480 --> 01:41:23,360
feel free to jump in and uh if I'm
missing something, right? Correct. We

1321
01:41:20,239 --> 01:41:26,560
have to do testing uh as well there. So
there's requirements and how we have to

1322
01:41:24,960 --> 01:41:29,440
store it and what we need to do in order
to store it. And then we also have to

1323
01:41:28,080 --> 01:41:33,920
make sure that we're doing testing over
there. Uh and then the concern is not

1324
01:41:32,159 --> 01:41:39,920
the testing we can handle in house
actually through the WPC. Um but it's

1325
01:41:36,719 --> 01:41:44,000
what happens if certain chemicals uh
because the reason for the testing is

1326
01:41:41,520 --> 01:41:47,840
it's you know people use pesticides they
use there's chemicals there's all these

1327
01:41:45,920 --> 01:41:52,480
different things what happens when it
leeches into the groundwater or into

1328
01:41:49,840 --> 01:41:58,600
that area. So then if there's problems
levels are elevated we now have to deal

1329
01:41:55,119 --> 01:41:58,600
with those consequences.

1330
01:41:59,280 --> 01:42:06,480
» Okay. I mean the mulch I'm not terribly
attached to although it's nice

1331
01:42:04,880 --> 01:42:10,080
mostly because it's and I and you know
same thing it's expensive to purchase

1332
01:42:07,920 --> 01:42:15,360
mulch but it is treated and everything
else. So, um, but but it is only 60

1333
01:42:12,400 --> 01:42:18,560
people. So, I guess I'm not and if we
really wanted to do it, I guess we could

1334
01:42:16,800 --> 01:42:22,560
charge more, but I'm not sure if it is.
Um,

1335
01:42:20,080 --> 01:42:25,600
but, um, I guess I'm just wondering if
John, are you there? Yeah.

1336
01:42:23,760 --> 01:42:31,199
» Yes.
>> Work with a lot of towns. Have you seen,

1337
01:42:28,480 --> 01:42:35,840
you know, leaf collection facility that
is able to make financial go? I'm just

1338
01:42:34,239 --> 01:42:39,360
I'm just kind of dumbfounded that
there's not a better way that there's

1339
01:42:38,000 --> 01:42:44,080
not a way to monetize this. you know,
we're looking at kind of a a really

1340
01:42:41,679 --> 01:42:47,440
crappy budget and revenue that's
dropping off and I'm like, I feel like

1341
01:42:45,920 --> 01:42:51,440
there's an opportunity here that we're
missing.

1342
01:42:49,199 --> 01:42:56,960
» No, there's there's a lot of um you
know, municipalities are not necessarily

1343
01:42:54,320 --> 01:43:00,800
um you know, set up to be, you know, for
large bulk processes to make a lot of

1344
01:42:59,119 --> 01:43:05,119
money with wood processing. There's a
lot of companies out there already. And

1345
01:43:02,960 --> 01:43:08,960
in fact, what I'm seeing now is a lot of
municipalities are getting, you know,

1346
01:43:07,119 --> 01:43:13,360
looking at these
regulations now that the D is rolling

1347
01:43:11,040 --> 01:43:18,400
out and all the processes now we have to
follow and and and permitting

1348
01:43:14,960 --> 01:43:22,800
limitations. Um you know and and like Z
said the the the testing the testing we

1349
01:43:20,800 --> 01:43:26,400
we actually have to pay for a lab. So we
are it is going to add additional costs

1350
01:43:24,719 --> 01:43:29,760
associated with you know doing all this
testing. We just don't going we're going

1351
01:43:28,000 --> 01:43:33,520
to have to we have labor in house to
collect the samples but the analysis is

1352
01:43:31,600 --> 01:43:36,560
still there. So, you know, a lot of a
lot of municipalities are looking at

1353
01:43:34,719 --> 01:43:40,960
that testing requirements and the over
and the burden of of all these

1354
01:43:38,480 --> 01:43:44,000
regulations that it's almost D is is
pushing a lot of the smaller

1355
01:43:42,159 --> 01:43:47,600
municipalities that have these systems,
you know, out of business to to look at

1356
01:43:46,400 --> 01:43:49,520
alternatives.
>> Yeah,

1357
01:43:47,920 --> 01:43:54,159
» it would be largely an economies of
scale. I know like I Union County runs a

1358
01:43:51,679 --> 01:43:58,159
compost facility and a lot of towns
whole, right, Rich? I think uh the one

1359
01:43:56,320 --> 01:44:01,920
over in Springfield off Shumpike they've
got a lot of towns bring their stuff to

1360
01:43:59,760 --> 01:44:07,360
the county compost facility for a town
to do it especially so small it's just

1361
01:44:04,400 --> 01:44:10,880
starts to get too expensive to meet with
the little potential for the revenue

1362
01:44:09,360 --> 01:44:13,920
that you have
>> okay because I mean we're talking about

1363
01:44:12,719 --> 01:44:17,440
just so we're clear we're talking about
like eight well eight weeks of the year

1364
01:44:15,600 --> 01:44:21,600
it's really the fall season and just to
give you perspective you said the MUA I

1365
01:44:20,080 --> 01:44:25,440
think you said it's like 4 I can't find
it 434 what was it 435 for 30 yard

1366
01:44:24,480 --> 01:44:30,480
container container.
>> He's got all the total costs for you. So

1367
01:44:28,080 --> 01:44:35,119
» 485 for a 30 yard container. My
contractor charged me 480 bucks to pull

1368
01:44:33,119 --> 01:44:38,080
away 12 yards.
>> So I get what you're saying. I just feel

1369
01:44:36,800 --> 01:44:40,800
like there's an opportunity. But I I
trust you guys. Your judgment.

1370
01:44:39,119 --> 01:44:43,520
» The thing is we could we we could up the
rates. You know, we did talk about,

1371
01:44:42,080 --> 01:44:48,159
okay, if we wanted to get the
contractors in, right, we'd have to up

1372
01:44:45,600 --> 01:44:51,360
the rates for them to make that revenue
to make it profitable right now.

1373
01:44:49,840 --> 01:44:54,239
» Well, we don't have to have the facility
opening up.

1374
01:44:52,080 --> 01:44:59,679
» Correct. I'm saying aside that, right?
like so you know look at in order to do

1375
01:44:56,960 --> 01:45:02,960
that um let's say it's with the MUA
right let's say we're keeping the MUA

1376
01:45:01,119 --> 01:45:07,360
but then you're you got to how much
money do you have to charge two

1377
01:45:04,960 --> 01:45:11,600
contractors two landscapers that are
coming they're going to just say it's

1378
01:45:09,520 --> 01:45:15,920
cheaper to go elsewhere and so we're
going to go through all that work in

1379
01:45:13,360 --> 01:45:20,880
order for us to you know be able to
generate the revenue or break even or to

1380
01:45:18,320 --> 01:45:25,760
make it cheaper uh we're going to have
to charge them a lot more and it would

1381
01:45:23,600 --> 01:45:29,520
just be cheaper for them to go elsewhere
than it would be to stay with us. And

1382
01:45:27,280 --> 01:45:34,880
then if we lose them because we've put
ourselves out of business, then we've

1383
01:45:32,320 --> 01:45:38,560
gone through all that work and now have
no customers.

1384
01:45:37,119 --> 01:45:41,600
» I thought there were more much more
customers. And I said, "Well, how many

1385
01:45:39,760 --> 01:45:46,320
landscapers are coming?" They said,
>> "And al and also again, I can't

1386
01:45:43,520 --> 01:45:49,920
emphasize enough regarding the quality
>> dropping off leaves Tuesday morning or

1387
01:45:48,400 --> 01:45:53,119
commercial contractors."
But we don't have the heat.

1388
01:45:51,360 --> 01:45:56,400
» Plus, if there's if there's containers
there for residents to dump in, these

1389
01:45:55,119 --> 01:46:01,119
contractors are going to have to
manually load like back up to the

1390
01:45:58,800 --> 01:46:05,360
dumpster as opposed to Yeah. as opposed
to dumping on the ground. So if we went

1391
01:46:04,000 --> 01:46:10,560
with them
>> Rich is there is there um and this is a

1392
01:46:08,000 --> 01:46:15,119
completely separate concern or angle at
this

1393
01:46:11,440 --> 01:46:20,800
» uh and that is um having the grinder
having the mulch facility and creating

1394
01:46:17,679 --> 01:46:26,800
mulch would this um containerized
version going forward um would that um

1395
01:46:24,239 --> 01:46:33,600
go to a mulch facility or would it go to
a landfill? Do we even know that?

1396
01:46:30,880 --> 01:46:37,679
» A recycling facility. Yeah.
>> Recycling facility. Okay. So, so you

1397
01:46:35,679 --> 01:46:41,360
don't lose that
>> environmental benefit.

1398
01:46:39,520 --> 01:46:47,280
» No, it goes to the Morris County
facility.

1399
01:46:42,880 --> 01:46:53,040
» Terrific. Perfect. If if we do um uh
Stacy's much more down to the the

1400
01:46:49,600 --> 01:46:57,040
details um on the looking at it
differently. If we if we have additional

1401
01:46:55,360 --> 01:46:58,480
cost, additional liability, which is
happening period,

1402
01:46:58,080 --> 01:47:05,760
» right?
>> Correct. Um, and if we if we go the

1403
01:47:02,159 --> 01:47:15,440
route of growing it to drive revenue,
um, is is that clearly going to be a um

1404
01:47:11,679 --> 01:47:21,520
a cost benefit um rather than just doing
what we're looking at and maybe um, in

1405
01:47:19,280 --> 01:47:26,800
other words, if we look at it on a
growth base, we're not making money now.

1406
01:47:23,440 --> 01:47:30,960
It's costing your guys a lot of um, time
>> where they losing money on it now. Yeah.

1407
01:47:28,719 --> 01:47:35,679
» So, we're losing money, is it? Now,
>> um is it would it be simple or very

1408
01:47:33,440 --> 01:47:41,040
difficult particularly under new
regulation and other things? Uh how

1409
01:47:38,400 --> 01:47:46,400
difficult would it be to turn it into a
profitable or uh I don't know you have

1410
01:47:44,480 --> 01:47:49,840
an exact answer on that, but I think
it'd be substantial.

1411
01:47:47,920 --> 01:47:55,280
» Yeah, I guess I just I just I would just
emphasize again the quality of the

1412
01:47:52,000 --> 01:47:59,199
material that we're generating. Um you
people will call and buy our material

1413
01:47:57,600 --> 01:48:03,600
because it's convenient because they can
just call the town. But you can get the

1414
01:48:01,440 --> 01:48:06,960
same quality material by just walking
down anyone cutting down a tree. Any of

1415
01:48:05,440 --> 01:48:11,760
the commercial tree companies will give
you a whole truckload of their material

1416
01:48:08,800 --> 01:48:15,360
for free. So it's it's that's the
quality of material. So if we're going

1417
01:48:13,119 --> 01:48:19,760
to go in the business of selling mulch
like like it's you have to process it

1418
01:48:18,480 --> 01:48:22,800
more. You know, it's not just a matter
of running it through a tub grow tub

1419
01:48:21,520 --> 01:48:26,719
grinder. you're you're grinding it
multiple times, screening it, you know,

1420
01:48:24,719 --> 01:48:31,280
in some cases they're dying it. It's
it's not, you know, it's we're we're not

1421
01:48:29,679 --> 01:48:35,600
not talking about just a simple
composting. Now, we're getting into a

1422
01:48:32,880 --> 01:48:40,960
manufacturing process to to to generate
a a quality mulch that we can we can

1423
01:48:38,480 --> 01:48:44,639
compete with a company that's doing it
properly.

1424
01:48:42,239 --> 01:48:49,199
» And just this year, rather last year,
we're talking about revenue of about

1425
01:48:46,080 --> 01:48:52,639
7,000 with expenses of about 42,000.
>> Okay. have to maintain

1426
01:48:51,119 --> 01:48:57,360
» is crazy even
>> that's when I save $200 plus the guys

1427
01:48:56,080 --> 01:49:00,320
» with this whole new procedure we're
trying to keep you know the same service

1428
01:48:59,119 --> 01:49:05,600
to the residents
>> because that's our main so minus you

1429
01:49:03,600 --> 01:49:07,040
know instead of dumping on the ground
putting in the dumpster.

1430
01:49:06,719 --> 01:49:13,119
» Yes.
>> That's really the big

1431
01:49:09,280 --> 01:49:18,480
» the big sell here. Does does that
if we go the dumpster route, fewer

1432
01:49:15,840 --> 01:49:23,760
commercial guys obviously, six two
trucks anyway and 60 truck loads and

1433
01:49:21,679 --> 01:49:29,440
going out. Uh would the would the
traffic uh the residential area there?

1434
01:49:26,960 --> 01:49:33,360
Um would that be greater, lesser or
similar because now you just move into

1435
01:49:31,199 --> 01:49:36,560
containers?
>> It all depends on you know like spring's

1436
01:49:35,679 --> 01:49:38,080
going to be heavy.
>> Sure. Of course.

1437
01:49:37,199 --> 01:49:42,000
» And in the fall.
>> Yes. You know, that's prim that those

1438
01:49:39,840 --> 01:49:45,119
are the busy seasons. Yes. But it's busy
anyway. Okay.

1439
01:49:43,040 --> 01:49:46,719
» You know, and MUA doesn't doesn't pull
containers on the weekends.

1440
01:49:46,320 --> 01:49:49,360
» Okay.
>> They're strictly Monday through Friday.

1441
01:49:48,560 --> 01:49:51,920
» Yep. Okay.
>> So, the weekend traffic people wouldn't

1442
01:49:51,360 --> 01:49:57,320
even notice.
>> Great.

1443
01:49:53,520 --> 01:49:57,320
» Great. Thank you.

1444
01:49:58,560 --> 01:50:04,520
» Any other questions, comments?
>> No, I just, you know,

1445
01:50:06,639 --> 01:50:13,040
» I mean, you you make I mean you're make
I I read all of the stuff. You made a

1446
01:50:11,280 --> 01:50:18,159
very compelling argument. I've been
racking my brain to try to figure out

1447
01:50:14,719 --> 01:50:23,360
how to challenge it, but um I I respect
your opinion and the work that you put

1448
01:50:20,080 --> 01:50:26,400
in and uh you know I wouldn't really
fight your professional opinion of this.

1449
01:50:25,920 --> 01:50:29,600
So
>> unfortunately with this new permit our

1450
01:50:28,560 --> 01:50:32,480
answer kind of died.
>> It's the new driven by the new permit.

1451
01:50:31,360 --> 01:50:36,960
» Yeah.
>> Just so you know too before Rich comes

1452
01:50:34,239 --> 01:50:43,679
here I challenge him quite a bit.
>> So Then I challenge you. Yeah.

1453
01:50:41,040 --> 01:50:49,520
» I I I make sure uh you know the
spreadsheet alone was was frustrating

1454
01:50:47,040 --> 01:50:54,000
enough for him. So because I want to
make sure that we all have the right

1455
01:50:50,880 --> 01:50:58,000
information and and you have the the
dollars, the figures, the quantities

1456
01:50:56,239 --> 01:51:00,719
that you need to know in order to make
that decision. And unfortunately it

1457
01:50:59,760 --> 01:51:04,560
seems like, you know, when you're just
looking at this short of saying, "Yeah,

1458
01:51:02,560 --> 01:51:08,880
we want to eat that cost. We understand.
We want to eat the cost and subsidize

1459
01:51:06,159 --> 01:51:13,040
it." there's really no other alternative
that we we could come up with to to

1460
01:51:11,360 --> 01:51:17,040
maintain this and I think the numbers
just sort of make the decision for

1461
01:51:14,960 --> 01:51:21,360
themselves. Well, the service is still
there because you drop you up deep and

1462
01:51:18,880 --> 01:51:24,320
you branches and such. Service remains
>> like obviously like it's a new

1463
01:51:22,880 --> 01:51:27,840
procedure. So, there's going to be bumps
and bruises here, you know. We're going

1464
01:51:26,159 --> 01:51:32,000
to figure it out along the way,
>> you know, but I think once people get

1465
01:51:30,000 --> 01:51:35,920
used to putting their stuff in dumpsters
that shouldn't shouldn't be done because

1466
01:51:34,320 --> 01:51:38,320
» everybody just wants to get rid of their
stuff.

1467
01:51:36,480 --> 01:51:41,440
» Okay. And we're not talking we're not
talking for this year. It would be for

1468
01:51:39,920 --> 01:51:45,199
next year. That's why we wanted to get
this out of the way early, have this

1469
01:51:42,960 --> 01:51:49,280
conversation so that way we can give
enough notice to, you know, the the

1470
01:51:47,679 --> 01:51:52,159
folks that use the mulch, but also the
landscapers. And who knows, maybe we

1471
01:51:51,040 --> 01:51:56,239
tell the landscapers, they're like, you
know what, I'll only give you 20,000 to

1472
01:51:54,480 --> 01:51:59,520
keep this going.
>> I don't I don't think they will, but

1473
01:51:58,639 --> 01:52:03,800
we'll get some feedback.
>> Then you got to really check what

1474
01:52:00,560 --> 01:52:03,800
they're dumping.

1475
01:52:04,000 --> 01:52:11,599
» Jimmy Hoffman's partner branches in
brush.

1476
01:52:09,280 --> 01:52:16,400
Just my last two cents, just to give you
perspective, it could you

1477
01:52:13,760 --> 01:52:19,679
» I if I paid the township $20 a cubic
yard,

1478
01:52:17,360 --> 01:52:23,760
» it would cost me $24 would be half the
price and I would more than contribute

1479
01:52:21,280 --> 01:52:29,280
to an MU like I would contribute half of
an MUA container with oneird of the with

1480
01:52:27,360 --> 01:52:32,400
oneird of the leaf collection. So that's
that's what I'm getting at in terms of

1481
01:52:30,719 --> 01:52:36,560
the you know the economics of it. But
>> I guess how would you like how would I

1482
01:52:34,000 --> 01:52:40,480
get it from my house to theirs? No, you
still have the landscaper, but the the

1483
01:52:38,239 --> 01:52:44,560
resident would buy the permit.
>> The res. So, I would buy a permit to

1484
01:52:42,320 --> 01:52:47,920
dump 10 yards. Now, unfortunately, Rich
is not how to measure when the truck

1485
01:52:46,239 --> 01:52:51,520
comes with 30 yards
>> that they're only dumping 10 yards. So,

1486
01:52:49,599 --> 01:52:56,400
it's not it's not a clean process, but I
was like, there got to be a way to All

1487
01:52:53,679 --> 01:52:59,840
right. I said my
>> I mean, if there we have some if there's

1488
01:52:58,560 --> 01:53:02,960
a way we can figure it out. I said,
we'll let the contractors know. We're

1489
01:53:01,199 --> 01:53:07,679
going to let the landscapers know. Hey,
heads up and maybe we'll meet with them

1490
01:53:05,280 --> 01:53:11,760
and see if they can I mean
>> I'm not opposed to coming up with an

1491
01:53:09,199 --> 01:53:16,000
alternative. Rich Rich is a little more
hesitant. Uh I just, you know, would

1492
01:53:14,159 --> 01:53:20,719
love to see if we can make it work. I
just don't practically, you know, as you

1493
01:53:18,320 --> 01:53:25,199
said, how do you make sure that the
people who are paying are the ones

1494
01:53:22,239 --> 01:53:28,400
bringing it in and
>> I think you're going to lose contractors

1495
01:53:26,800 --> 01:53:30,560
automatically just from them having to
shovel it off into a dumpster.

1496
01:53:29,840 --> 01:53:33,840
» Oh yeah,
>> that because that's too much time. Yeah,

1497
01:53:32,080 --> 01:53:36,239
» they're going to pay their guys to do
that and then your price is going to go

1498
01:53:35,520 --> 01:53:40,000
up.
>> I mean, yeah.

1499
01:53:38,000 --> 01:53:43,440
» And actually, you can you can buy m
residents can buy material from the MUA

1500
01:53:42,000 --> 01:53:47,280
and they do have different products
because they process it different way.

1501
01:53:45,040 --> 01:53:52,320
If you want to buy wood mulch versus
unscreened compost um and and so they

1502
01:53:50,159 --> 01:53:55,440
they you can buy it from there's other
sources too if you want to buy the

1503
01:53:53,760 --> 01:53:58,560
material back.
>> Yeah.

1504
01:53:56,159 --> 01:53:58,560
» Thanks, John.

1505
01:53:58,639 --> 01:54:05,440
purchase from the NUA.
>> Yeah, we'll put in our DPW bullets and

1506
01:54:02,639 --> 01:54:08,800
it'll it'll notify because we do put in
there right now that you can buy from

1507
01:54:06,560 --> 01:54:12,960
DPW. So, we'll just say, "Hey, here's
how you can buy it now."

1508
01:54:10,080 --> 01:54:18,599
» That's great.
>> Okay. Anything else? A wrench.

1509
01:54:19,280 --> 01:54:30,880
» I'm looking to you for another question.
>> All right. Thank you so much.

1510
01:54:26,239 --> 01:54:35,840
to you and the crew on the snow plowing.
>> Just anote I got one resident came and

1511
01:54:34,000 --> 01:54:40,040
they said they knew exactly where where
Chadam stops and starts

1512
01:54:40,960 --> 01:54:45,679
» you got to come. I know I'm Chad the
roads are clear.

1513
01:54:43,199 --> 01:54:50,639
» Yeah, great crew. You actually did too
good of a job. I say

1514
01:54:48,159 --> 01:54:54,960
» as far as we're out a lot faster this
time than have been

1515
01:54:53,040 --> 01:54:58,560
» so next time maybe slow it down a little
bit.

1516
01:54:56,880 --> 01:55:02,239
» Oh, because you kept everybody safe. I
mean, big hill. We got lots of big

1517
01:55:00,320 --> 01:55:07,440
hills, so we appreciate it.
>> We had a neighbor at a medical emergency

1518
01:55:04,320 --> 01:55:12,080
at 2 am on Sunday and the roads were
clear. You guys got that? My the walk

1519
01:55:09,520 --> 01:55:15,040
and his walk were not clear, but the
roads were clear

1520
01:55:13,280 --> 01:55:19,199
» because they accidentally knocked on my
door, but it was uh the roads were clear

1521
01:55:17,679 --> 01:55:24,560
and they had no problem parking on the
road, so it was really important.

1522
01:55:22,400 --> 01:55:28,080
» All right. Well, thank you guys.
>> Great.

1523
01:55:26,080 --> 01:55:30,320
You too. Thanks for hanging in
>> I believe you need to hang around,

1524
01:55:29,679 --> 01:55:32,880
right?
>> Yep. Yep. I was just going to ask you.

1525
01:55:31,520 --> 01:55:38,480
I'm making sure you still want to cover
it tonight.

1526
01:55:34,480 --> 01:55:43,920
» Okay. So, whatever is next on the agenda
Yes, thank you. So, uh since we do have

1527
01:55:40,400 --> 01:55:49,920
John here, uh next is under engineering
uh briefly uh we will have a resolution

1528
01:55:47,599 --> 01:55:55,280
likely for the next meeting uh if not
for April. Uh but that would be to award

1529
01:55:52,400 --> 01:56:00,159
the contract to to uh a contractor
lowest bidder to do the work at the

1530
01:55:56,960 --> 01:56:03,119
estate for the ADA improvements. Um I
don't think there's any questions on

1531
01:56:01,280 --> 01:56:08,080
that one.
>> Ze just quickly what is um your your

1532
01:56:05,280 --> 01:56:11,440
best guess time frame? Um, John, we
haven't scheduled a precon yet. So,

1533
01:56:09,920 --> 01:56:15,360
» no, we haven't scheduled a pre-con, but
it it will be done during during the day

1534
01:56:13,440 --> 01:56:19,280
and and during the construction, you
know, we'll we'll emphasize that it

1535
01:56:17,760 --> 01:56:23,679
needs to be safe. You know, he can't as
he's working, you know, you'll still be

1536
01:56:20,639 --> 01:56:26,560
able to walk up the gravel road um and
walk in the area. But, you know, it

1537
01:56:25,199 --> 01:56:30,000
should probably I would I would
guesstimate it's about two weeks worth

1538
01:56:28,159 --> 01:56:34,239
of work, maybe a little bit longer just
to to complete the signage and things to

1539
01:56:31,840 --> 01:56:38,560
come back. But, um, but it's really
about two weeks worth of work that he's

1540
01:56:35,760 --> 01:56:42,719
going to do. and and John, best guess on
roughly when you when you believe this

1541
01:56:40,880 --> 01:56:48,719
work will start.
>> Um, I would think that if we um we award

1542
01:56:46,639 --> 01:56:53,679
the contract at the next meeting, it
usually takes about two 3 weeks to get

1543
01:56:51,040 --> 01:57:01,080
contracts in place. So, I would think
that he would probably start late April,

1544
01:56:56,480 --> 01:57:01,080
early May would be the soonest.

1545
01:57:04,400 --> 01:57:08,679
Once we have the pre-op meeting though

1546
01:57:08,880 --> 01:57:13,760
soccer season now.
>> Yeah.

1547
01:57:12,480 --> 01:57:19,760
So we'd have construction in the middle
of lacrosse season.

1548
01:57:16,159 --> 01:57:23,520
» Well, is it going to is you know it's
going to be during school hours. So

1549
01:57:21,840 --> 01:57:27,520
they'll be working during the day and
they will you know have them any

1550
01:57:25,760 --> 01:57:31,920
equipment that they have they'll pull to
the side and so you know they they have

1551
01:57:29,599 --> 01:57:36,560
to make the work site uh you know safe
every time they leave the day. every

1552
01:57:33,679 --> 01:57:41,040
time they leave. So, I don't it's it's
you know with the the paving the paving

1553
01:57:38,560 --> 01:57:46,400
may be a day at two at the most. So,
it's not going to be a very um you know

1554
01:57:43,760 --> 01:57:50,880
long process and it should be during the
day and he should be able to keep the

1555
01:57:47,920 --> 01:57:56,239
work site uh relatively safe when uh you
know because it's not we don't have any

1556
01:57:52,480 --> 01:58:00,320
major excavations or or you know large
trenches he's digging. It's really just

1557
01:57:58,239 --> 01:58:06,599
all paving work. So, it's it's it's
relatively neat.

1558
01:58:03,599 --> 01:58:06,599
Yeah.

1559
01:58:07,360 --> 01:58:13,440
» Okay.
>> Is it going to affect parking at all?

1560
01:58:10,960 --> 01:58:17,679
Like for
people that are coming during those two

1561
01:58:15,599 --> 01:58:21,679
weeks? I mean, the charts will be off on
the side and everything, but there isn't

1562
01:58:19,440 --> 01:58:26,159
going to be another place where they're
going to go, right?

1563
01:58:24,560 --> 01:58:30,560
» John, did you hear the question?
>> Uh, no. No. Um, I get like the safety

1564
01:58:29,119 --> 01:58:37,199
issue and everything, but what about
access and parking? Um, are how many

1565
01:58:34,480 --> 01:58:42,639
spaces are going to be lost during that
small window of time while the field

1566
01:58:40,239 --> 01:58:47,520
might be used and everything else too?
>> I I I I would think that in the

1567
01:58:44,800 --> 01:58:51,199
beginning he's going to have a small
bulldozer that he'll do the to get the

1568
01:58:49,679 --> 01:58:55,520
grades and things. So, it's probably one
piece of equipment. um we can make sure

1569
01:58:53,760 --> 01:58:59,440
that he doesn't leave any of his dump
truck or anything on any of vehicles. He

1570
01:58:57,679 --> 01:59:02,800
doesn't need to park there. And then
during the paving, he's going to have

1571
01:59:00,880 --> 01:59:07,119
probably have a paver and a roller. So
have those pieces of equipment. But I

1572
01:59:05,360 --> 01:59:10,679
don't envision him taking up more than
two or three spots.

1573
01:59:11,920 --> 01:59:18,960
» Okay. There will be a period then though
when you can't drive on it.

1574
01:59:17,440 --> 01:59:22,159
You you'll always be able to walk on it,
right John? That is to say, you'll be

1575
01:59:20,159 --> 01:59:27,440
» Yeah. even even driving on it. You know,
a lot of you know, a lot of small pavers

1576
01:59:24,719 --> 01:59:31,199
will say that um you know, you you
should keep off your driveway for a

1577
01:59:28,960 --> 01:59:34,960
week. And and I always laugh about that
because you know, asphalt doesn't

1578
01:59:32,639 --> 01:59:39,280
consolidate or or take time like a
concrete where it cures over time. You

1579
01:59:37,040 --> 01:59:43,440
know, as soon as you roll that asphalt
and it cools, you can walk on it right

1580
01:59:41,199 --> 01:59:49,639
away. So, you it's really hours that
it's going to take that uh you know,

1581
01:59:44,960 --> 01:59:49,639
will be open versus, you know, days.

1582
01:59:51,840 --> 01:59:58,159
Yeah, we could talk to him about having
his equip parking his equipment up on at

1583
01:59:56,159 --> 02:00:02,000
the on the top of the hill versus the
lower area just to keep the lower area

1584
01:59:59,920 --> 02:00:07,599
open.
>> Yeah, just in the event that we lose

1585
02:00:03,599 --> 02:00:12,480
access to upper yesterday, you know, um
we get communication as early as

1586
02:00:09,360 --> 02:00:16,400
possible. So, whoever if someone's got
scheduled events up there. Yeah, we we

1587
02:00:15,119 --> 02:00:20,560
we'll we'll definitely look at the
scheduling and and when he submits his

1588
02:00:18,159 --> 02:00:25,280
his schedule, you know, we'll we'll hash
out all those things during the

1589
02:00:21,920 --> 02:00:27,199
pre-construction meeting.
>> Great. Thanks, John.

1590
02:00:26,800 --> 02:00:32,719
» Okay.
>> Um so, the reason John's here is uh for

1591
02:00:30,159 --> 02:00:39,920
the discussion action item was on the
agenda uh titled Southern Boulevard open

1592
02:00:35,440 --> 02:00:43,760
space LOI. Uh that is the u property
property formerly owned by the Fensky

1593
02:00:42,159 --> 02:00:50,400
family.
Um I did email a while ago um her

1594
02:00:48,480 --> 02:00:55,599
request that the the mapping would be
made available. Um as soon as that was

1595
02:00:53,199 --> 02:01:00,159
done, you know, I wanted to make sure I
reviewed that with John. Um and I said

1596
02:00:58,000 --> 02:01:04,639
that to you and I had asked if there's
any questions or reason for discussion.

1597
02:01:02,480 --> 02:01:08,719
Actually, nobody really mentioned that
there was, but the reason I brought it

1598
02:01:06,320 --> 02:01:13,520
up is because John then uh followed up
with the next step, which was to uh

1599
02:01:11,040 --> 02:01:18,960
submit an application to the D for the
actual delineation.

1600
02:01:15,360 --> 02:01:24,159
Um, and before we went ahead with that,
um, that was almost just shy of $3,000,

1601
02:01:21,840 --> 02:01:28,320
I was like, you know what, based on the
mapping, not much really changed from

1602
02:01:25,920 --> 02:01:34,320
what we thought and there's a lot of
limitations already and very little that

1603
02:01:30,880 --> 02:01:39,840
we can do with the property. Um and
whatever it is that we probably would

1604
02:01:36,880 --> 02:01:45,679
consider doing uh can probably be done
without the permit from the D which

1605
02:01:42,159 --> 02:01:50,239
would uh so just seems that we may not
need to go to the next level. But before

1606
02:01:47,760 --> 02:01:54,639
that determination is made and before I
decide uh whether I should write the

1607
02:01:52,400 --> 02:01:58,880
requisite to check or not, I want to
confer with all of you and give you guys

1608
02:01:56,159 --> 02:02:04,639
an opportunity talk to John and maybe
see what possibilities you have in mind

1609
02:02:01,520 --> 02:02:08,080
for this in light of the restrictions um
and for John to give us a little bit

1610
02:02:06,560 --> 02:02:12,719
more clarity on what is or is not
possible there.

1611
02:02:10,480 --> 02:02:17,440
» Do we have anything? I don't remember
receiving anything. Yeah, it was uh

1612
02:02:14,719 --> 02:02:23,119
emailed about a month ago and then uh
resent I believe with the agenda packet.

1613
02:02:20,639 --> 02:02:27,520
» Was it resent agenda packet? Okay.
>> Yeah. So the the not I believe I resent

1614
02:02:26,800 --> 02:02:31,119
it though.
>> Okay.

1615
02:02:28,480 --> 02:02:35,679
» And we can send it out again. Um but
basically the hatched area is actually

1616
02:02:32,960 --> 02:02:43,119
the wetlands and the clear areas are the
uplands and if um if we impose the 150

1617
02:02:40,320 --> 02:02:47,520
foot buffer onto the wetlands which we
suspect because you know because of the

1618
02:02:45,040 --> 02:02:52,320
the proximity of the swamp it's going to
be exceptional value and that's about

1619
02:02:50,239 --> 02:02:56,960
150 foot buffer and and just scaling
this is about 100 feet. So when you when

1620
02:02:54,719 --> 02:03:02,080
you add that 100 foot buffer onto this,
there's going to be very limited to

1621
02:02:59,040 --> 02:03:07,679
almost no property that that's that's
not going to be within wetlands or

1622
02:03:04,239 --> 02:03:12,320
within the wetlands buffer. Um I I and
if we go for the LOI, basically the D is

1623
02:03:10,480 --> 02:03:15,760
going to go out and they may move a line
here or there, shift it, you know,

1624
02:03:14,000 --> 02:03:19,520
slightly that that's common for them,
but it's it's not going to drastically

1625
02:03:17,520 --> 02:03:24,560
change, you know, what what you see
here. it it's it very very typically

1626
02:03:22,239 --> 02:03:29,040
very minor changes that they they make
and then and then basically the line is

1627
02:03:26,719 --> 02:03:32,719
set for five years. So a lot of
developers will get an LOI because you

1628
02:03:31,119 --> 02:03:37,040
know they buy a piece of property they
know that the the line is set it's it's

1629
02:03:34,800 --> 02:03:43,840
it's not going to change and so that's
very common to get the LOI. But if we

1630
02:03:39,599 --> 02:03:47,360
were going to go for a a a path or um
you know some type of a permit that's

1631
02:03:45,440 --> 02:03:51,920
either either a general permit or an
individual permit um you don't have to

1632
02:03:49,440 --> 02:03:57,599
get the LI the L the as part of that
permit process um they they review the

1633
02:03:54,239 --> 02:04:03,440
the wetlands delineations. Um so so
$3,000 it's it's a hefty application fee

1634
02:04:00,080 --> 02:04:09,440
to get the LOI. Um, in comparison, if we
were just to look at a path through and

1635
02:04:06,719 --> 02:04:13,920
you can the DP regulations are are are
very lenient on recreational paths, you

1636
02:04:12,000 --> 02:04:17,760
know, that they we can put paths
throughout this and and uh, you know, we

1637
02:04:16,080 --> 02:04:22,480
should have no problem getting a permit.
And in fact, that permit has no cost to

1638
02:04:20,480 --> 02:04:27,679
it. It's probably the only application
fee that I'm aware of that that D does

1639
02:04:24,719 --> 02:04:33,440
not charge actually to to permit paths,
uh, recreational paths. Um, you know, I

1640
02:04:30,800 --> 02:04:38,159
did show a driveway here and and and a
parking area. This this is gonna to get

1641
02:04:35,840 --> 02:04:41,040
um this is actually going to be a
difficult permit to get. You would have

1642
02:04:39,679 --> 02:04:45,840
probably have to go for an individual
permit, get a whole bunch of waiverss um

1643
02:04:43,520 --> 02:04:50,400
to get that. You know, D may in fact
take this area and push the parking lot

1644
02:04:48,400 --> 02:04:55,520
over here and try to limit the amount of
area that we have to come in. So we

1645
02:04:53,520 --> 02:04:58,719
really and and if you look at if we want
to get a parking lot over here, we still

1646
02:04:57,199 --> 02:05:03,280
have the 100 foot bit and maybe there's
a little pocket in here, but you know,

1647
02:05:00,639 --> 02:05:07,280
all this is transition area. So D is not
going to want to have a driveway going

1648
02:05:05,520 --> 02:05:11,199
through this entire area to put a
parking lot here. That that's we we

1649
02:05:09,760 --> 02:05:15,280
would have a challenge. I don't want to
discourage it entirely, but it it would

1650
02:05:13,199 --> 02:05:17,520
be a challenge with the D. So, you know,
if we're going to do something like a

1651
02:05:16,400 --> 02:05:21,199
parking lot, we would have a
pre-application with them and discuss,

1652
02:05:19,520 --> 02:05:27,040
you know, possibilities because it's
likely going to be an individual permit.

1653
02:05:24,080 --> 02:05:32,239
» John, if I heard you correctly, uh
something like a path, uh we we don't

1654
02:05:30,159 --> 02:05:35,520
need to get the LOI, correct?
>> Correct. Yeah. You don't need an LOI for

1655
02:05:34,080 --> 02:05:40,960
the forational.
>> This was something that was up for

1656
02:05:36,880 --> 02:05:47,199
discussion um for public solicitation of
public input. Um but now there's

1657
02:05:43,760 --> 02:05:52,880
limitations known and we don't have
things back or I don't have things back

1658
02:05:49,520 --> 02:05:56,000
uh from the open space here. So yeah
perhaps we can run in front of them and

1659
02:05:54,400 --> 02:06:00,560
see if there's anything other than a
path that is uh interesting.

1660
02:05:58,719 --> 02:06:04,560
» Correct. And and and we don't have to
jump to submit the LOI if we want to

1661
02:06:02,480 --> 02:06:09,119
just you know vent this a little bit and
and we can submit the the LOI in six

1662
02:06:07,119 --> 02:06:12,960
months and or a year. All the work is
start is prepped up to to submit it. we

1663
02:06:11,280 --> 02:06:17,199
just, you know, it's just a matter of do
we want to go that next step and uh, you

1664
02:06:15,679 --> 02:06:20,560
know, spend the money to get us over the
gold just for an LOI and it's it's not

1665
02:06:19,119 --> 02:06:22,880
going to, you know, we're going to be
over the goal, but we're going to have

1666
02:06:21,599 --> 02:06:26,639
the same map. You know, we're not going
to be able to do anything with that LOI

1667
02:06:24,719 --> 02:06:31,760
other than say yes, the the D has
confirmed these limits.

1668
02:06:28,560 --> 02:06:35,760
» Yeah. So, um, mayor, I would request
that, uh, I get some input from open

1669
02:06:34,159 --> 02:06:41,280
space and Craig gets some input from
Environmental Commission and then we

1670
02:06:38,000 --> 02:06:44,880
either uh go get an LOI or the path, do
whatever we want to do that way. Um, if

1671
02:06:43,760 --> 02:06:46,239
you're agreeable to that, are you
agreeable to that, sir?

1672
02:06:45,840 --> 02:06:49,679
» Yeah.
>> Great. I think the biggest consideration

1673
02:06:48,480 --> 02:06:51,520
is the parking.
>> Okay.

1674
02:06:50,000 --> 02:06:53,760
» Because we can do a beautiful space and
trails, but if someone doesn't have a

1675
02:06:52,880 --> 02:06:57,119
place to park,
>> right, that's part of the discussion.

1676
02:06:55,679 --> 02:07:00,400
» I think that's part of the push back
from the environmental commission is

1677
02:06:58,400 --> 02:07:04,719
that they don't want it, but we also
want give people access to it. So,

1678
02:07:03,119 --> 02:07:09,040
» I don't know where else you're Yeah.
like the Green Village post office where

1679
02:07:06,800 --> 02:07:12,880
it parks there to walk on the lawn. But
>> so efforts were started. So let's uh

1680
02:07:11,440 --> 02:07:16,000
let's uh
>> do them the the courtesy of having their

1681
02:07:15,280 --> 02:07:20,719
input.
>> Absolutely.

1682
02:07:17,040 --> 02:07:25,920
» If we had a connectivity to Nash, where
would that be?

1683
02:07:22,880 --> 02:07:30,320
» Um we would we would connect it. Um if I
can see my cursor in here, you know,

1684
02:07:27,840 --> 02:07:34,159
Nash is over here. So we we we can uh
you know, you do have the parking lot. I

1685
02:07:32,560 --> 02:07:37,840
guess like I could try to go down a
different map, but we we can have, you

1686
02:07:36,000 --> 02:07:42,880
know, con connected to the Nashville
Nash property.

1687
02:07:40,159 --> 02:07:47,840
» Well, the way that's laid out the uh if
if you talk about even the Green Village

1688
02:07:45,360 --> 02:07:51,599
trout, Nash to Green Village, uh that
would end down by the old skating rink,

1689
02:07:51,119 --> 02:07:55,440
which
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's it's up over, you know,

1690
02:07:53,199 --> 02:07:59,199
this this is a this is a long
>> there all the way the sidewalk gets

1691
02:07:57,760 --> 02:08:02,320
» there's another pocket of wet there's
additional wetlands to delineate on the

1692
02:08:00,880 --> 02:08:05,520
net. We didn't delineate all of
Nashville. They're just in the area

1693
02:08:03,679 --> 02:08:09,199
where we're going to put the um the
boardwalk and the and the path. But the

1694
02:08:07,440 --> 02:08:12,800
this is all wetlands out here. Probably
extends out. But, you know, it's it's

1695
02:08:11,199 --> 02:08:17,599
over here and we can connect. You know,
we we wanted to talk about a connection

1696
02:08:15,440 --> 02:08:22,639
and extension to come around and and and
bring a path around into, you know, just

1697
02:08:20,400 --> 02:08:25,599
have it just as another branch coming
around so people can walk a circle

1698
02:08:24,239 --> 02:08:30,079
around, you know, that's certainly
something we can look at.

1699
02:08:27,760 --> 02:08:39,599
» Yeah, that's that's Thank you.
Hey John, I have a question. So

1700
02:08:33,199 --> 02:08:43,599
the the northern section up against
southern where the path jogs around.

1701
02:08:43,040 --> 02:08:51,119
» Mhm.
>> Can we not utilize that through buffer

1702
02:08:47,920 --> 02:08:56,400
averaging and arguing the value is
degraded because of its proximity to the

1703
02:08:53,599 --> 02:08:59,760
street and noise pollution and and
light?

1704
02:08:57,679 --> 02:09:04,480
See the thing with with wetlands
averaging you have to have property you

1705
02:09:03,040 --> 02:09:09,679
have to have pro a portion of the
property that's not within a buffer. So

1706
02:09:07,520 --> 02:09:14,239
there's not there's not a lot of area
that we can give with averaging because

1707
02:09:11,760 --> 02:09:18,000
if you have 150 foot buffer the buffer
is extending all the way over here. So

1708
02:09:16,079 --> 02:09:21,599
usually with a buffer you you have
property that you can you know horse

1709
02:09:19,679 --> 02:09:24,800
trade away and and increase buffers. But
we

1710
02:09:21,920 --> 02:09:30,960
» trade away the the western pieces right
now. Well, we we this is all wetlands

1711
02:09:28,719 --> 02:09:34,880
all in here. So, you know, we there's no
average. You can't average these these

1712
02:09:32,560 --> 02:09:41,360
pockets because the they're totally
>> the uh the space all that space to the

1713
02:09:38,400 --> 02:09:43,199
left of the parking lot.
>> Oh, in here.

1714
02:09:42,480 --> 02:09:49,440
» Yeah.
>> Well, this this is I can just uh just

1715
02:09:46,239 --> 02:09:53,040
throw a scale on this. Let me just This
from here to here.

1716
02:09:51,679 --> 02:09:58,239
» What does that mean?
>> That's that's a

1717
02:09:55,599 --> 02:10:03,360
That's 180 ft. So, you know, if you have
a 150 foot buffer on either side, this

1718
02:10:01,119 --> 02:10:07,159
is all buffer.
>> Not even the football field.

1719
02:10:07,440 --> 02:10:18,599
» Yeah. My hope and desire was um
to buffer average out that area and just

1720
02:10:19,119 --> 02:10:26,480
blacken it and make it parking, you
know, informal parking for Nash, which

1721
02:10:24,480 --> 02:10:30,639
currently is wfully under park.
>> Yeah, this will be a challenge because

1722
02:10:28,000 --> 02:10:34,719
Nash the other parking lot is over here.
>> Yeah, that's and this this wetlands

1723
02:10:33,119 --> 02:10:39,119
probably continues all the way around
here. So it it you have a wetlands

1724
02:10:36,880 --> 02:10:45,079
pocket here and and you know that that
supplemental parking would be a

1725
02:10:40,719 --> 02:10:45,079
challenge to get it permitted today

1726
02:10:45,119 --> 02:10:50,960
» and all this would be just packed dirt
and and

1727
02:10:49,520 --> 02:10:57,520
» we would have a gravel you know we would
have a gravel path coming in. So it's

1728
02:10:52,800 --> 02:11:00,719
it's um you know just just to so it's
>> you could see what they've done at the

1729
02:10:59,040 --> 02:11:02,159
great swamp parking lot that they have
and

1730
02:11:01,360 --> 02:11:05,040
» like that. Okay.
>> Yes.

1731
02:11:03,599 --> 02:11:09,040
So John, you are going to get us an
updated map with Nash on there, right?

1732
02:11:07,440 --> 02:11:11,840
» Yes. Yeah, I can do that. Yep.
Absolutely.

1733
02:11:10,400 --> 02:11:16,480
» Also, just so we can see I
>> I can show an updated map with Nash and

1734
02:11:14,239 --> 02:11:20,400
I can actually um what I can do is just
combine the two plans so we know exactly

1735
02:11:18,159 --> 02:11:24,560
where our path is and all the fields and
and how we're going. Um so we we can

1736
02:11:23,119 --> 02:11:30,079
combine this so it's something that so
we can look at it holistically as a as

1737
02:11:26,880 --> 02:11:34,239
as as one property versus two.
>> Yeah. Because I guess I wonder, you

1738
02:11:31,520 --> 02:11:38,159
know, parking is difficult,
but if we were able to connect to the 80

1739
02:11:36,400 --> 02:11:41,599
ft that we have to potentially build and
put like the basketball court there and

1740
02:11:39,920 --> 02:11:45,520
use that or I don't know.
>> Um, not that I want to dismantle stuff.

1741
02:11:43,920 --> 02:11:49,960
I'm just trying to creatively think how
we can maximize the overall space.

1742
02:11:53,520 --> 02:11:58,960
Yeah, because we can we can compare the
delineation that we did on Nash and and

1743
02:11:57,119 --> 02:12:03,119
just kind of, you know, we can dash
these as interpretive of what we would

1744
02:12:01,040 --> 02:12:07,119
would be just based on the topography
and uh we won't go out and delineate

1745
02:12:04,960 --> 02:12:10,800
more unless we need to. But, you know,
just for planning purposes, we can do

1746
02:12:08,880 --> 02:12:13,040
that.
>> Okay, great. Thank you.

1747
02:12:12,239 --> 02:12:17,520
» Yeah.
>> And John, because it jos it uh you would

1748
02:12:15,679 --> 02:12:23,760
have obstructed sightelines from the
street, right? Well, there's a there

1749
02:12:20,079 --> 02:12:27,760
there's already a um a driveway apron
here and there is somewhat of a gravel

1750
02:12:25,760 --> 02:12:31,119
path here already because they the
landscaper was coming back here and

1751
02:12:29,280 --> 02:12:35,199
there's a shed here and some debris
pile. So, because this is where they

1752
02:12:32,880 --> 02:12:40,000
were dumping some of some wood chips and
so there is a a somewhat of a of a it's

1753
02:12:37,679 --> 02:12:44,880
not very defined gravel, but there is a
path that's that's in this area already.

1754
02:12:42,719 --> 02:12:48,880
And uh when you come out it the sight
distance was was fine.

1755
02:12:47,280 --> 02:12:52,639
» Yeah. I'm just wondering about security
because it could be like not you know

1756
02:12:50,400 --> 02:12:56,400
it's obstructed views from the street.
Uh you know um

1757
02:12:54,880 --> 02:13:01,920
» yeah we could look at a light we could
probably add if there's not a light

1758
02:12:59,840 --> 02:13:05,360
DPW because that may have to be chained
at night

1759
02:13:03,520 --> 02:13:09,040
» um
>> yeah I I would expect something like

1760
02:13:07,119 --> 02:13:17,159
this we would say that it's you know
dust of dawn you know it's closed at

1761
02:13:11,440 --> 02:13:17,159
night discourage people from driving in

1762
02:13:18,320 --> 02:13:23,280
Well, I thought we couldn't use the
parking lot.

1763
02:13:22,000 --> 02:13:25,840
» Why are we putting in a path for
nowhere?

1764
02:13:24,159 --> 02:13:30,320
» Yeah, that's why I'm confused.
>> Wait, I thought that that is

1765
02:13:28,400 --> 02:13:34,239
» Well, now this is just I was just
illustrating a possible parking lot. If

1766
02:13:32,320 --> 02:13:37,040
this parking lot is from here, we would
we would do some type of a trail in this

1767
02:13:36,480 --> 02:13:39,440
area.
>> So, that parking lot would need a permit

1768
02:13:38,639 --> 02:13:43,280
or no, John.
>> Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

1769
02:13:41,840 --> 02:13:48,079
And then this this would probably need
an individual permit because we're we're

1770
02:13:45,119 --> 02:13:52,480
we're because this is this is all buffer
um going in permit.

1771
02:13:50,639 --> 02:13:56,000
» Yeah. This this would need a permit and
this would you know it wouldn't be a

1772
02:13:54,159 --> 02:14:00,000
general permit likely be an individual
permit and I would suspect you know we

1773
02:13:57,760 --> 02:14:06,159
would have a pre-application with the D
but the D tend to um you know show some

1774
02:14:03,840 --> 02:14:10,639
leniency on their when it comes to
recreational uses. you know, the fact

1775
02:14:08,639 --> 02:14:15,119
that we're putting this in for, you
know, for people for recreational path,

1776
02:14:12,800 --> 02:14:18,800
a passive path, you know, they they they
usually are very cooperative in that

1777
02:14:17,119 --> 02:14:22,480
sense.
But again, they they may come back and

1778
02:14:20,480 --> 02:14:26,320
they they'll they'll hammer us on, you
know, is there other options? Can you

1779
02:14:24,239 --> 02:14:30,239
minimize the disturbance? Can you move
the parking lot over here and stick it

1780
02:14:28,239 --> 02:14:34,000
in like in this way so when you drive in
and then pull in on this sides? They

1781
02:14:31,920 --> 02:14:39,280
they I would see that they would
probably push for that so that we don't

1782
02:14:35,760 --> 02:14:39,280
go far into it.

1783
02:14:40,400 --> 02:14:47,760
But that that would call come out in a
pre pre-application meeting to talk

1784
02:14:43,599 --> 02:14:53,599
about, you know, options and approaches.
>> Would county consider extending the Nash

1785
02:14:51,199 --> 02:14:56,800
Trail to to this location? And I don't
know what I don't know if there'd be a

1786
02:14:54,719 --> 02:15:01,199
bluff at the end or what, but um would
they is is that on the tables? Well, we

1787
02:14:59,760 --> 02:15:05,760
we could we could certainly approach
Morris County for another grant if we

1788
02:15:02,880 --> 02:15:11,639
want to extend from the existing um
boardwalk and do another path in this

1789
02:15:08,639 --> 02:15:11,639
location.

1790
02:15:14,719 --> 02:15:20,719
Yeah, there's definitely when we had
when we permitted for this sidewalk on

1791
02:15:18,480 --> 02:15:26,480
Southern Boulevard, this was a, you
know, a difficult permit because there

1792
02:15:22,400 --> 02:15:33,599
was um they were there was uh spotted
salamander habitat in this area and uh

1793
02:15:29,520 --> 02:15:37,199
actually we had had to hire a special uh
environmentalist to go out there at

1794
02:15:35,119 --> 02:15:41,760
night to look for salamanders and it was
a big deal just to get this sidewalk in.

1795
02:15:47,920 --> 02:15:56,239
So it sounds like uh
cost valuing would suggest

1796
02:15:53,520 --> 02:16:01,040
» trails probably.
>> Yeah, trails and but I could see Yeah, I

1797
02:15:58,719 --> 02:16:04,719
could see the D allowing some small
parking lot to allow in here. I I would

1798
02:16:03,119 --> 02:16:08,320
think that they wouldn't push back too
much. you know, they they they will

1799
02:16:06,880 --> 02:16:11,840
ultimately do that and then deed
restrict the rest of the property. So

1800
02:16:09,840 --> 02:16:14,960
that we're that's the tradeoff is that
we we're putting the parking lane that

1801
02:16:13,440 --> 02:16:19,599
we're going to deed restrict from
further developing from a parking lots

1802
02:16:16,960 --> 02:16:24,079
or any other uses. Um that that
restriction would preclude um you

1803
02:16:22,239 --> 02:16:28,719
wouldn't restrict paths and other
passive recreation in the wetlands.

1804
02:16:27,280 --> 02:16:32,240
Okay.
>> For kicks, how many spots you think you

1805
02:16:30,320 --> 02:16:37,439
can get if it's closer and you can't
touch the land that's abuing southern

1806
02:16:36,080 --> 02:16:39,760
because I think you referenced spotted
salamanders.

1807
02:16:38,240 --> 02:16:47,120
» Yeah, that right here. This this this
wetlands pocket is is um you know that's

1808
02:16:44,399 --> 02:16:50,080
» I for us to start impacting these
wetlands that that's going to be then

1809
02:16:49,120 --> 02:16:55,359
we're going to start getting into
wetlands mitigation and and um you know

1810
02:16:53,120 --> 02:17:00,000
that that can get costly. Um, you know,
we could look at, you know, negotiating

1811
02:16:58,160 --> 02:17:03,439
moving in some wetlands and then, you
know, creating this all, you know,

1812
02:17:01,599 --> 02:17:07,200
creating this entire area as wetlands,
but then, you know, that those

1813
02:17:04,880 --> 02:17:11,760
mitigations, there's there's ratios that
you have to meet and and it's it's it's

1814
02:17:09,760 --> 02:17:15,719
a process to go through that. That's
that's a costly process.

1815
02:17:16,960 --> 02:17:21,760
» I appreciate it. Thanks, John.
>> Okay.

1816
02:17:20,880 --> 02:17:25,040
» Thank you.
>> All right. Good night, everyone.

1817
02:17:27,519 --> 02:17:33,679
Okay. Hi. You want to continue with the
reports?

1818
02:17:30,960 --> 02:17:40,319
» Yes, mayor. Um,
well, there really are not too much too

1819
02:17:36,800 --> 02:17:43,439
many more things uh besides the budget.
I don't know. Do you want to take a

1820
02:17:41,760 --> 02:17:46,960
break for the bud to the restroom break?
Does anybody need a bio break or

1821
02:17:45,120 --> 02:17:49,760
» I need I need
>> Okay. Yeah, maybe we'll take a five

1822
02:17:48,080 --> 02:17:51,760
minute break or a few minute break for
people.

1823
02:17:50,160 --> 02:17:55,960
» Up to you. Just because once we get to
that one. Yeah. Okay.

1824
02:18:04,080 --> 02:18:10,160
Ready, Mayor?
>> Yes. Ready. Thank you.

1825
02:18:05,920 --> 02:18:17,200
» Okay. Um so this evening uh under
administration

1826
02:18:12,800 --> 02:18:22,240
uh no action um proposed under clerk
report was received. Any questions

1827
02:18:18,559 --> 02:18:26,479
there? Okay. Construction, building, uh,
just the report. We didn't receive any

1828
02:18:23,679 --> 02:18:32,080
questions. Anything to discuss there?
>> Okay. Finance. Um, I'll get back to

1829
02:18:29,120 --> 02:18:36,960
financing, police, public works. Uh, we
covered those. Anything there?

1830
02:18:35,120 --> 02:18:41,840
» Tax collector. Uh, we will have a
resolution on for the next agenda for an

1831
02:18:39,280 --> 02:18:46,319
outside lean redemption.
Any questions or concerns about the

1832
02:18:43,519 --> 02:18:50,479
report? Okay. Tax assessor. I will note
under his report, he did provide a very

1833
02:18:48,559 --> 02:18:54,479
lengthy update. uh this month on
progress related to the reval. Any

1834
02:18:52,479 --> 02:18:58,399
questions or concerns there?
>> Uh no, but I have been getting questions

1835
02:18:56,080 --> 02:19:02,479
from residents about whether or not
they've started, you know, going door to

1836
02:19:00,240 --> 02:19:06,479
door, which he said or the report said
that they have, which we didn't act for

1837
02:19:04,399 --> 02:19:08,880
other meetings. Uh that but they started
in, you know, some of the dentist

1838
02:19:07,599 --> 02:19:13,439
sections just to get a lot of coverage
with an animal. So, uh it's more so to

1839
02:19:12,319 --> 02:19:17,760
make sure residents are aware that
that's begun. It also said, you know, in

1840
02:19:16,160 --> 02:19:21,840
terms of access, it said something like
you can see what area they're in now by

1841
02:19:20,800 --> 02:19:24,719
going on the website.
>> Yeah, we did put out an update on the

1842
02:19:23,599 --> 02:19:26,639
website about that.
>> So, it's on our website. We have an

1843
02:19:26,080 --> 02:19:31,920
update.
>> We did put an update uh I believe um you

1844
02:19:30,080 --> 02:19:40,319
just double check. They also have a
spreadsheet on their website, asj.com.

1845
02:19:35,760 --> 02:19:44,479
There's a spreadsheet of um what
who the inspector will be and what date

1846
02:19:42,080 --> 02:19:45,679
they have currently slotted to arrive at
the property.

1847
02:19:45,280 --> 02:19:48,559
» Oh, good.
>> So, you can look it up by your home

1848
02:19:46,960 --> 02:19:51,359
address and you can see what their
projected day is when they might arrive.

1849
02:19:50,960 --> 02:19:55,280
» Okay.
>> We did post something on, I believe, on

1850
02:19:52,960 --> 02:20:00,560
social media with a link as well and
update it on on our website, uh the tax

1851
02:19:57,680 --> 02:20:05,120
assessors page with that information to
go to and see the uh like where they are

1852
02:20:03,600 --> 02:20:09,040
and all of that information. Okay.
Hasn't popped up for me in social media,

1853
02:20:06,720 --> 02:20:13,680
but I I follow Township, but I'll see if
I can find it and then try and repost.

1854
02:20:12,160 --> 02:20:15,359
» But no, good. That's what I want to make
sure is to this meeting and push it out

1855
02:20:14,960 --> 02:20:21,399
as well.
>> I'll I'll double check that. I know we

1856
02:20:17,439 --> 02:20:21,399
did work on that. So,

1857
02:20:23,120 --> 02:20:32,640
» um right. Um then on to finance. There
are a number of legislative items for

1858
02:20:30,800 --> 02:20:37,120
the next meeting. It would be to a
resolution to introduce the budget

1859
02:20:34,720 --> 02:20:43,680
resolution. We are in the self-exam
cycle of uh we are in the self-exam year

1860
02:20:40,240 --> 02:20:48,319
of that cycle. So resolution to do that
resolution to uh do some budget

1861
02:20:45,920 --> 02:20:53,439
transfers under the reserve budget and
then an ordinance to set the open space

1862
02:20:50,560 --> 02:20:57,120
tax rate u based off of the proposal
that would be in the budget presentation

1863
02:20:55,040 --> 02:21:02,800
shortly.
Uh so with that um I'll turn your

1864
02:20:59,920 --> 02:21:08,560
attention to the slides uh for the
budget presentation. Uh this year the um

1865
02:21:07,760 --> 02:21:10,160
budget committee
>> screen there.

1866
02:21:09,280 --> 02:21:13,040
» I'm sorry.
>> Um there's a Zoom session running on

1867
02:21:11,760 --> 02:21:17,120
that computer. If you want to share the
screen

1868
02:21:14,160 --> 02:21:20,439
» so I didn't realize there was a Zoom
session there.

1869
02:21:21,920 --> 02:21:28,600
» Thanks Greg. Uh, I'm can't see where am
I.

1870
02:21:29,040 --> 02:21:32,439
Here we go.

1871
02:21:32,800 --> 02:21:39,920
Okay.
Good. Perfect. Thanks, Greg.

1872
02:21:37,359 --> 02:21:45,280
Um, so this year the municipal budget
finance committee uh was comprised of

1873
02:21:43,439 --> 02:21:48,720
mayor General Olen, deputy mayor Marty
McHugh. Uh this is your second year or

1874
02:21:47,280 --> 02:21:55,920
third year on the finance committee.
Second, uh myself, our CFO and our

1875
02:21:52,399 --> 02:21:58,800
assistant treasurer uh at Davenport. Um
the mayor, she's a finance and

1876
02:21:57,359 --> 02:22:02,800
accounting professional of over two
decades. Uh and our deputy mayor

1877
02:22:01,280 --> 02:22:06,160
operates an independent national
business development firm that he's also

1878
02:22:04,479 --> 02:22:12,399
owned for over two decades. So, we've
got two very very astute and fiscally

1879
02:22:09,840 --> 02:22:16,880
minded uh business professionals. Uh and
as I mentioned, this is their second

1880
02:22:13,600 --> 02:22:19,600
year on the finance committee.
>> Yeah. No, I'm sorry.

1881
02:22:17,680 --> 02:22:23,840
» You're second. Oh, third for the mayor,
second for the deputy mayor. So, a lot

1882
02:22:21,359 --> 02:22:27,760
of experience there working on this and
uh we appreciated their their input and

1883
02:22:26,000 --> 02:22:34,000
their challenges uh that they put
forward to us to craft this budget.

1884
02:22:30,960 --> 02:22:37,600
Uh the timeline uh for this budget
largely mirrors previous years and for

1885
02:22:36,080 --> 02:22:42,640
the governing body, you've heard this
now several times, but I I say this as

1886
02:22:41,040 --> 02:22:46,160
though uh members of the public are
hearing this for the first time in case

1887
02:22:43,920 --> 02:22:51,520
anybody's dialed in uh or is new to
this. This the budget process starts uh

1888
02:22:48,720 --> 02:22:55,840
in the previous year in the fall uh
around September October where we are

1889
02:22:53,840 --> 02:22:59,840
having department heads and the finance
department administration working on the

1890
02:22:58,080 --> 02:23:05,439
individual department budgets the
requests um really reviewing

1891
02:23:02,319 --> 02:23:09,760
expenditures from the for for that year
um and starting to look at needs and

1892
02:23:08,319 --> 02:23:14,479
priorities for the following year as
well some of the challenges coming ahead

1893
02:23:11,840 --> 02:23:18,000
uh November uh we have department head
meetings uh and reviewed their budget

1894
02:23:16,479 --> 02:23:23,359
requests
uh and then that information gets fed to

1895
02:23:21,040 --> 02:23:27,760
finance department to uh put together
the first draft of the budget as well as

1896
02:23:25,439 --> 02:23:30,800
close the books from the previous year.
uh February and March is when we start

1897
02:23:29,280 --> 02:23:36,960
having the finance committee meetings to
propose and put forward that first draft

1898
02:23:32,880 --> 02:23:41,200
to them and then uh by this time March
uh we've finalized the the draft of the

1899
02:23:39,120 --> 02:23:46,080
budget to be proposed and we're doing
quality control things uh that would

1900
02:23:43,760 --> 02:23:52,160
involve our auditor and really looking
at financial statements, fund balances,

1901
02:23:49,040 --> 02:23:57,520
reserves, uh you know any expenses,
anything that might have come up uh

1902
02:23:55,120 --> 02:24:02,319
since last year that we weren't aware
that also require sometimes by the time

1903
02:23:59,680 --> 02:24:07,120
the school or the county finalized their
budget or we're getting requests for

1904
02:24:04,479 --> 02:24:13,520
from the library or other entities uh
that is stuff that then gets fed in by

1905
02:24:10,240 --> 02:24:19,439
March the latest we we usually have that
uh today March 10th we do the initial

1906
02:24:15,600 --> 02:24:24,560
budget presentation uh we look to have
budget introduction March 24th uh with

1907
02:24:22,319 --> 02:24:29,840
another presentation same presentation
unless anything's changed uh and the

1908
02:24:26,720 --> 02:24:35,040
goal goal is to adopt April 28th, 2026
uh in time to meet the state deadlines

1909
02:24:31,760 --> 02:24:41,120
for the budget adoption uh for municipal
for municipalities.

1910
02:24:37,760 --> 02:24:47,040
The municipal finance and budgeting uh
really varies quite differently from uh

1911
02:24:44,560 --> 02:24:52,640
the private sector. You know what people
might be used to. Uh it's a very heavily

1912
02:24:49,840 --> 02:24:56,560
regulated process. We look for guidance
from the state uh through the department

1913
02:24:54,800 --> 02:25:00,960
of community affairs, the local finance
board. Uh sometimes that guidance comes

1914
02:24:58,800 --> 02:25:05,760
right in the middle of the process. Uh
we wait on the governor to really make

1915
02:25:03,840 --> 02:25:09,520
clear to municipalities what their state
aid is going to look like. Uh and that's

1916
02:25:07,680 --> 02:25:14,640
something that comes also uh when
they're finished introducing their

1917
02:25:11,200 --> 02:25:20,080
budget. Um at least two dozen meetings
and calls uh occur in order to get this

1918
02:25:18,080 --> 02:25:24,960
budget to where it is. It's not a uh
overnight thing. It's definitely a long

1919
02:25:22,000 --> 02:25:28,399
drawn out very thorough process in in
addition to the finance committee

1920
02:25:26,080 --> 02:25:35,600
includes our auditors as well to make
sure that we're doing the right thing.

1921
02:25:31,359 --> 02:25:39,840
Um the budget has to do with really our
appropriations and our revenues. Uh you

1922
02:25:37,920 --> 02:25:44,640
know our salaries and wages, other
expenses which are everything from

1923
02:25:41,520 --> 02:25:49,280
supplies, materials, fuel, uh any
contractual obligations we may have with

1924
02:25:46,560 --> 02:25:52,960
third parties, uh utilities and the debt
service. All of these are just a sample

1925
02:25:51,120 --> 02:25:57,280
but of what really make up the biggest
part of our appropriations. And then our

1926
02:25:54,800 --> 02:26:01,600
revenues, uh, everything that includes
fees and fines, licenses, any interests

1927
02:25:59,439 --> 02:26:06,240
from our bank accounts, the state aid, I
mentioned, any grants, what's known as

1928
02:26:03,200 --> 02:26:10,960
MNA, miscellaneous revenue, um, you
know, things that we charge copies or

1929
02:26:09,120 --> 02:26:16,000
smaller things. Uh, those make up our
revenues. That is our main revenue, our

1930
02:26:13,680 --> 02:26:18,960
main source of revenue outside of taxes.
Taxes is really our main source of

1931
02:26:17,520 --> 02:26:24,399
revenue. We don't, we're not a business.
We're not selling widgets. We're not uh

1932
02:26:21,200 --> 02:26:29,439
providing uh consulting services. Uh
besides mulch, maybe

1933
02:26:27,200 --> 02:26:36,399
we we're not selling a product. Uh the
the biggest uh portion of uh our revenue

1934
02:26:32,479 --> 02:26:41,200
is the taxes. So, we try our hardest to
increase revenues uh in any other way

1935
02:26:39,200 --> 02:26:46,080
other than taxes to minimize that tax
burden. But the difference between the

1936
02:26:42,800 --> 02:26:50,720
appropriations and those revenues is h
has to be made up with taxes. That's the

1937
02:26:48,000 --> 02:26:55,120
the levy.
Um, and we really try to strike a

1938
02:26:53,359 --> 02:27:00,080
balance between doing the cost of
business and those limited opportunities

1939
02:26:57,520 --> 02:27:04,960
for revenue. Uh, we are also not
municipality that has hotels that might

1940
02:27:02,640 --> 02:27:10,640
collect hotel occupancy taxes. We're not
a town that has a downtown with parking

1941
02:27:07,120 --> 02:27:16,240
revenue. We're not a town uh with um
hospitals that might generate more fees

1942
02:27:13,600 --> 02:27:20,240
for birth certificates, for example. Uh
so we want to provide top rate

1943
02:27:17,920 --> 02:27:25,200
government service and ensure the public
safety so the community still remains

1944
02:27:22,240 --> 02:27:29,600
attractive uh that then leads to the
increase in home values that people come

1945
02:27:26,880 --> 02:27:33,439
to appreciate and yields taxpayers the
best return on their investment which is

1946
02:27:31,280 --> 02:27:37,760
their property. Uh so we're constantly
looking to do more with less uh finding

1947
02:27:35,760 --> 02:27:41,359
savings mitigating those increases and
trying to increase ways where we can

1948
02:27:39,359 --> 02:27:45,600
generate revenue.
the challenges uh the the goals that we

1949
02:27:44,000 --> 02:27:49,680
have in light of those challenges are to
avoid some quick fixes. Uh the

1950
02:27:47,920 --> 02:27:55,439
short-term remedies of just dipping into
your surplus uh to to always say, "Oh,

1951
02:27:52,960 --> 02:28:01,520
well, we don't want to raise taxes." Uh
raising taxes, well, that's nobody's

1952
02:27:57,520 --> 02:28:05,600
goal. Uh it it ensures that the town is
stable and resilient for the future to

1953
02:28:03,600 --> 02:28:11,200
make sure that those fund balances are
healthy uh and that we can budget as

1954
02:28:08,319 --> 02:28:14,399
lean as possible but do so responsibly
where we're not cutting services that

1955
02:28:13,280 --> 02:28:19,280
don't need to be and we're not
jeopardizing or risking safety or

1956
02:28:16,800 --> 02:28:23,720
compromising even on the quality of uh
our roads during storms. For example,

1957
02:28:25,200 --> 02:28:31,359
this year we were confronted with a
number of very very significant

1958
02:28:29,120 --> 02:28:37,359
challenges. Uh the biggest of those
challenges was the rising cost of health

1959
02:28:34,080 --> 02:28:42,240
health care uh headlines uh in New
Jersey papers but also around the

1960
02:28:39,439 --> 02:28:47,120
country are all uh saying the same
thing. Health care costs are rising and

1961
02:28:44,319 --> 02:28:52,319
they're rising very very drastically.
Um, but in New Jersey, especially for

1962
02:28:49,760 --> 02:28:56,720
municipalities who provide health
benefits to their employees, as most

1963
02:28:54,560 --> 02:29:00,240
municipalities do, your options are
really limited. Uh, you're either in the

1964
02:28:58,479 --> 02:29:06,160
state health benefits plan, for example,
or you're out to to private market.

1965
02:29:02,800 --> 02:29:12,600
2025, the cost of health care for
employees uh and retirees was about

1966
02:29:09,600 --> 02:29:12,600
$2,474,000.

1967
02:29:13,280 --> 02:29:22,720
We saw an increase uh of 32% this year.
That's an extra $85,000

1968
02:29:20,160 --> 02:29:26,800
to our health care costs. And that's not
and just to clarify, our employees are

1969
02:29:24,479 --> 02:29:32,080
also contributing as well to their
health benefits. So, uh we follow the

1970
02:29:29,439 --> 02:29:36,800
chapter 75 model. It was an old state
law that dictates how much employees

1971
02:29:34,160 --> 02:29:42,479
contribute based on their status, the
health coverage status, and also their

1972
02:29:39,439 --> 02:29:46,800
salary. Uh so it's a graduated scale. Uh
so our employees do share in this burden

1973
02:29:44,399 --> 02:29:52,240
and they are seeing that same increase.
So they're seeing uh their contributions

1974
02:29:49,760 --> 02:30:00,319
going up about the same amount of money.
Um but that $85,000 is a very difficult

1975
02:29:56,240 --> 02:30:03,840
uh increase to overcome. What I've tried
to do, and I've done that every year

1976
02:30:02,319 --> 02:30:07,520
since I've been here, almost every year
since I've been here, is uh request our

1977
02:30:05,840 --> 02:30:12,479
claims experience from our health
insurance plan and try to market that to

1978
02:30:10,640 --> 02:30:17,680
other providers to see if we can get
better costs. Unfortunately,

1979
02:30:15,040 --> 02:30:23,359
uh no one is willing to quote us at a
better cost or at all. um largely

1980
02:30:21,280 --> 02:30:28,399
because one of the reasons you look at
your claims experience, how many

1981
02:30:24,880 --> 02:30:33,840
employees you have and uh you know what
what are those claims like? Uh the good

1982
02:30:32,560 --> 02:30:39,760
thing about the stay health benefits
plan is it pools us with a larger entity

1983
02:30:36,960 --> 02:30:44,880
as opposed to just going off on our own
for the few employees that we have. So

1984
02:30:42,640 --> 02:30:50,960
this was a very big uh challenge for us
in addition to the payments for the

1985
02:30:47,840 --> 02:30:54,319
county order tax revaluation. Uh we
started that process, we awarded that

1986
02:30:52,720 --> 02:30:59,760
contract and we did a what's known as a
5-year special emergency last year.

1987
02:30:57,439 --> 02:31:04,319
Essentially what that does is uh splits
up that cost over five years. So the

1988
02:31:02,240 --> 02:31:11,040
cost over each of those five years
starting with this year is $130,000.

1989
02:31:07,840 --> 02:31:16,319
uh we kind of borrow we borrow that from
ourselves, but we repay ourselves uh

1990
02:31:14,399 --> 02:31:20,960
over time rather than borrowing it from
a bank at a higher rate. But that's

1991
02:31:18,240 --> 02:31:24,399
$130,000 expense this year that we did
not have last year.

1992
02:31:22,960 --> 02:31:27,680
» You want questions as we go along? You
want us to wait till the

1993
02:31:25,680 --> 02:31:32,240
» uh if you don't mind uh waiting till the
end, but uh

1994
02:31:31,200 --> 02:31:35,200
» you might want to take a breath, but
that's okay. I have to answer the

1995
02:31:34,319 --> 02:31:40,000
question.
>> No problem. Uh the other one I just to

1996
02:31:37,760 --> 02:31:45,120
emphasize also that this tax reval was
ordered by the county. So we did have a

1997
02:31:42,880 --> 02:31:49,920
little bit of a heads up on this one uh
to plan for it but uh you know there's

1998
02:31:48,399 --> 02:31:56,960
little that you can do. It's a cost that
you have to pay for at some point. Uh

1999
02:31:53,280 --> 02:32:01,600
this year also weather uh as we know we
all know was a big challenge uh worse

2000
02:31:59,760 --> 02:32:08,640
than last year worse than in a few
years. uh record setting uh storms that

2001
02:32:04,640 --> 02:32:15,040
we've dealt with in 2026 year to date,
$94,000 in costs just for Salt, Brine,

2002
02:32:12,000 --> 02:32:20,880
and our contractor. Uh that is already
more than we spent all of last year. And

2003
02:32:18,399 --> 02:32:27,280
that does not include an increased
amount that we've budgeted for overtime

2004
02:32:22,960 --> 02:32:32,319
for DPW. Uh we can't time storms. So if
they come in over weekends, they come in

2005
02:32:29,920 --> 02:32:37,280
evenings, uh that is a cost that we
acrew uh in in the form of overtime. So

2006
02:32:35,120 --> 02:32:41,439
because the what we had originally
planned when the department requests

2007
02:32:38,960 --> 02:32:45,840
came in in the fall, uh we were thinking
great, you know, we could manage with

2008
02:32:43,520 --> 02:32:49,520
similar levels as to as far as last year
for overtime budget. The the good thing

2009
02:32:48,240 --> 02:32:53,120
about getting the storm out of the way
so soon was we knew what those costs

2010
02:32:51,359 --> 02:32:57,680
were and could budget for it rather than
have an emergency later on in the year

2011
02:32:55,200 --> 02:33:03,200
and and scramble. So, we did increase
the budget uh line for overtime by about

2012
02:33:00,399 --> 02:33:07,760
$50,000. Uh because there's also still
the potential for storm at the end of

2013
02:33:04,560 --> 02:33:12,479
the year and we have to plan for that.
And that overtime is not just winter

2014
02:33:10,000 --> 02:33:16,319
weather too. uh you know from time and
time we get hurricanes or other storms

2015
02:33:14,560 --> 02:33:22,880
that could impact the community and we
have to be prepared to handle those.

2016
02:33:20,080 --> 02:33:26,479
Um
so

2017
02:33:24,399 --> 02:33:31,600
uh a quick snapshot of the budget this
year as compared to last year. Uh I put

2018
02:33:29,280 --> 02:33:34,319
two charts uh that really show your
appropriations and the revenue. And the

2019
02:33:33,120 --> 02:33:40,319
reason I did that, I'll explain in a
moment, but our total appropriations

2020
02:33:36,160 --> 02:33:47,280
this year, uh, 19,741,
uh, 153. That's a change of $312,000

2021
02:33:44,319 --> 02:33:53,439
over last year. Uh, not a terrible
increase. Uh, but our revenue uh went

2022
02:33:50,560 --> 02:33:58,000
down as well um by about a million
dollars. Now, I'll explain that in a

2023
02:33:56,000 --> 02:34:02,240
second. So, our revenue for 2026 was
about 6.5 whereas last year was about

2024
02:34:00,479 --> 02:34:06,080
7.5.
So the difference between those two as I

2025
02:34:04,560 --> 02:34:10,000
was talking about before that tells you
what the amount to be raised by taxes is

2026
02:34:08,560 --> 02:34:13,520
and all of these figures I'm talking
about one obviously this is what's

2027
02:34:11,280 --> 02:34:17,920
proposed and this is just for municipal
purposes only within your control. So

2028
02:34:16,080 --> 02:34:23,760
that excludes the library the library
tax is set by state law and there are

2029
02:34:20,960 --> 02:34:27,439
county schools and open space uh you
know a number of other things I'll show

2030
02:34:24,880 --> 02:34:31,600
in a chart later. So this is just what's
in in the control of the township the

2031
02:34:29,200 --> 02:34:34,560
township committee and and over here. So
that difference is the what's known as

2032
02:34:33,120 --> 02:34:40,399
the levy, the amount to be raised by
taxes. That's an increase of $1.3

2033
02:34:37,120 --> 02:34:45,280
million, approximately $1.3 million. And
when you look at I'm sorry, uh our net

2034
02:34:42,960 --> 02:34:49,359
valuation taxable, uh we had a very
modest increase in the net valuation

2035
02:34:47,120 --> 02:34:54,319
taxable. That's our ratable base. Uh
that is a very low increase, but a very

2036
02:34:52,479 --> 02:34:59,760
low increase historically one of the
lowest in the last five years.

2037
02:34:57,040 --> 02:35:04,560
Uh and so that is what we spread the
amount to be raised by taxes across that

2038
02:35:01,840 --> 02:35:10,640
net valuation taxable. That's how I I'll
show that later. But the numbers uh

2039
02:35:07,600 --> 02:35:15,520
above are I say a little deceiving, but
they aren't truly representative of the

2040
02:35:12,640 --> 02:35:20,720
full picture because grants uh have to
be booked as both a an appropriation and

2041
02:35:17,760 --> 02:35:25,040
a revenue. So
why did the revenue go down by so much?

2042
02:35:23,200 --> 02:35:28,399
That's because we took out the grants.
If you take out the grants from the

2043
02:35:26,479 --> 02:35:34,080
revenue line item, you do see that our
revenue actually did go up $212,000

2044
02:35:31,920 --> 02:35:40,640
this year, but the appropriations went
up $1.5 million

2045
02:35:37,840 --> 02:35:47,359
and largely due to the health care
costs. Um 60% of that increase is due to

2046
02:35:45,439 --> 02:35:53,760
the stay benefits plan increases this
year, that 800 plus that I told you

2047
02:35:49,120 --> 02:35:57,200
about. Um, and we don't want to dip into
our surplus too much. The the amount we

2048
02:35:55,600 --> 02:36:02,399
use from the surplus is also accounted
for in the revenue. So, we left the

2049
02:35:58,960 --> 02:36:08,000
surplus at the same usage as in previous
years. Uh, but as I mentioned, limited

2050
02:36:05,120 --> 02:36:14,640
opportunities for revenue otherwise. Uh,
last year our tax rate went up uh.9%.

2051
02:36:12,960 --> 02:36:20,880
I'm sorry, the net valuation, our
ratable base went up.9%. The year before

2052
02:36:16,640 --> 02:36:27,520
that 2.33%. And so that's to illustrate
uh the magnitude of that rate of the

2053
02:36:24,240 --> 02:36:32,800
base change.
This is the top seven the top seven

2054
02:36:30,080 --> 02:36:36,640
expenses that make up 77% of those
appropriations. You'll see those

2055
02:36:34,240 --> 02:36:41,120
emergency response and public safety.
That is uh the biggest expense. That's

2056
02:36:39,439 --> 02:36:48,960
everything from the police department,
the fire departments, uh hydrants to uh

2057
02:36:45,600 --> 02:36:55,439
uh dispatch. Uh that is the biggest
portion of it. Uh that went up uh just

2058
02:36:51,760 --> 02:36:59,359
about 4%. Um not too bad. Insuranceances
though, that's where you'll see that big

2059
02:36:56,880 --> 02:37:03,120
increase. And so not only health
insurance, but workers compensation and

2060
02:37:01,439 --> 02:37:09,760
general liability insurance. Everything
from the liability and and uh employment

2061
02:37:07,280 --> 02:37:15,200
practices liability as well uh for all
of our facilities and all the employees.

2062
02:37:11,600 --> 02:37:20,720
That went up uh 833,000.
public works expenses. Uh in addition to

2063
02:37:18,240 --> 02:37:29,120
the new uh Teamsters contract coming
into effect, the increases for uh salt

2064
02:37:25,200 --> 02:37:34,560
brine contractor and the overtime costs
that was uh one of the larger increases

2065
02:37:31,200 --> 02:37:39,280
this year second to insurance. Uh
pensions and social security that went

2066
02:37:37,120 --> 02:37:45,439
up not a tremendous amount. Debt
payments also went up not a tremendous

2067
02:37:41,920 --> 02:37:50,000
amount. uh capital improvement fund. We
did reduce that by about $75,000 this

2068
02:37:48,080 --> 02:37:55,040
year to just try and offset a little bit
of the uh damage to all those increases

2069
02:37:52,960 --> 02:38:01,120
this year. Uh but we did keep it at
about $500,000 whereas last year was

2070
02:37:57,280 --> 02:38:06,479
$575. Uh capital requests this year all
departments were told limit it to

2071
02:38:03,760 --> 02:38:12,720
strictly essential missionritical
absolutely can't function without it. uh

2072
02:38:09,040 --> 02:38:18,000
that way we don't uh add to our debt and
that way we uh try to minimize the

2073
02:38:14,960 --> 02:38:22,319
impact to the tax rate this year. Uh and
then utilities did go up this year about

2074
02:38:20,720 --> 02:38:26,160
$42,000.
Uh we do go out to auction just to give

2075
02:38:24,319 --> 02:38:30,479
the residents and and the township
committee an idea of what we do to try

2076
02:38:28,319 --> 02:38:35,439
and find savings everywhere or reduce
those increases. Uh we go out to auction

2077
02:38:34,000 --> 02:38:39,280
to try and get competitive rates. So
rather than just going with the market

2078
02:38:36,640 --> 02:38:43,040
rates through JCPNL, we bundle our
utility costs, aggregate those whether

2079
02:38:41,359 --> 02:38:47,600
it's for the buildings, whether it's for
the uh street lights or the facilities,

2080
02:38:45,920 --> 02:38:51,840
uh we do go out to auction and try to
get the best rate. And it also gives us

2081
02:38:49,680 --> 02:38:57,520
a level of predictability for the next
couple of years. So we're not at the

2082
02:38:53,680 --> 02:39:04,760
whim of BPU and JCPNL increases.
So the subtotal of those seven items uh

2083
02:39:00,319 --> 02:39:04,760
for this year was $14,991,249.

2084
02:39:04,960 --> 02:39:13,520
So that's an increase of 9.67.
The remainder everything else uh which

2085
02:39:10,880 --> 02:39:17,760
is administration, technology, finance,
construction, recreation, legal,

2086
02:39:15,760 --> 02:39:22,319
engineering, our boards and commissions,
affordable housing, everything else

2087
02:39:19,680 --> 02:39:28,960
besides those things up there is just 4
million or $172,000.

2088
02:39:25,280 --> 02:39:33,760
Uh that is a uh increase of 234 over
last year. And down below again, you'll

2089
02:39:31,600 --> 02:39:37,680
see the total appropriations excluding
grants. Uh because again, grants have to

2090
02:39:35,680 --> 02:39:42,640
be booked as an appropriation and a
revenue. So want to make sure that you

2091
02:39:40,080 --> 02:39:47,200
can look at that without weighing both
sides of the equation.

2092
02:39:45,359 --> 02:39:52,479
Uh I was talking about our net valuation
taxable. Just a quick snapshot over the

2093
02:39:49,280 --> 02:39:58,880
last uh couple years what our tax base
looks like. Uh 2022 went up 23 24 went

2094
02:39:56,640 --> 02:40:02,880
up a large amount. That's largely due to
developments that were coming online.

2095
02:40:00,479 --> 02:40:08,240
Enclave was the biggest one. Uh so
whenever there's development in town, uh

2096
02:40:05,600 --> 02:40:12,880
larger developments especially, uh that
helps our tax base which minimizes the

2097
02:40:10,880 --> 02:40:19,280
individual bur the burden to individual
property owners because you're spreading

2098
02:40:15,439 --> 02:40:25,120
more of that levy uh across more.
Here's a snapshot of our surplus for the

2099
02:40:21,920 --> 02:40:29,600
last couple of years. So you'll see uh
keeping it at 3.5. It's been at 3.5 for

2100
02:40:28,080 --> 02:40:36,319
the last four years. How much we're
using from the surplus. Uh the last time

2101
02:40:32,479 --> 02:40:41,680
uh it was at 3 million was in 2022.
Uh we will have a fund balance after

2102
02:40:39,280 --> 02:40:49,439
this budget adoption based off of what's
proposed estimated at about 1,762,000.

2103
02:40:46,479 --> 02:40:54,240
Not ideal, but not bad. Uh it's still
healthier than it's been uh in in some

2104
02:40:51,760 --> 02:41:00,479
of our worst years. Uh it is still very
healthy. I don't see it affecting our

2105
02:40:55,920 --> 02:41:03,760
bond rating. Ideally, we'd be at 2.1 uh
million, but that would mean that we

2106
02:41:02,080 --> 02:41:09,520
would have to reduce what we use from
our fund balance by about $370,000.

2107
02:41:07,120 --> 02:41:15,120
Uh that would mean approximately an
extra $90 a year per household to do

2108
02:41:12,960 --> 02:41:19,520
that. Uh that's to make sure that's at
least 10% of our total expenditures from

2109
02:41:17,200 --> 02:41:26,720
the prior year, which is generally a
best practice, but I do think we'll be

2110
02:41:21,520 --> 02:41:31,920
able to recover in future years. Um,
and moving on. So, tax bill review, what

2111
02:41:30,319 --> 02:41:37,040
would it look like? All everything that
I've talked about here. So, the amount

2112
02:41:34,160 --> 02:41:41,760
to be raised by taxes, again, proposed
for municipal purposes only within your

2113
02:41:39,439 --> 02:41:44,760
control excluding the library. That's
13,28,490.

2114
02:41:45,680 --> 02:41:52,240
Take the net valuation taxable, divide
those, that gives you a tax rate of uh

2115
02:41:50,479 --> 02:41:58,040
376
uh with an average residential

2116
02:41:53,840 --> 02:41:58,040
assessment this year of $878,600.

2117
02:41:58,080 --> 02:42:04,960
That means that the average annual
residential tax bill for municipal

2118
02:42:02,240 --> 02:42:11,359
purposes only would be 3 mill I'm sorry,
$3,32.

2119
02:42:07,600 --> 02:42:18,399
That's on uh that's $275 a month to pay
for a lot of service uh that residents

2120
02:42:15,200 --> 02:42:22,640
are getting. So that $275 a month makes
sure that the police are doing their

2121
02:42:20,399 --> 02:42:26,000
job. We've got storm cleanup, snow
removal, road maintenance, we're running

2122
02:42:24,640 --> 02:42:30,080
the recycling center and compost
facility, a whole slew of things in

2123
02:42:27,520 --> 02:42:35,200
addition to uh contractual services.
We've got a number of shared services

2124
02:42:31,600 --> 02:42:40,240
agreements to again keep costs low. Um
leverage some uh economies of scale and

2125
02:42:38,160 --> 02:42:44,960
also provide subsidies to the fire
departments, all volunteer fire

2126
02:42:42,080 --> 02:42:49,520
departments, our volunteer EMS and to a
senior citizen center. Uh all that do a

2127
02:42:48,000 --> 02:42:54,080
great job and provide outstanding
service, top rate service to the

2128
02:42:51,200 --> 02:42:59,680
residents. So I think that's a a very
fair price to pay for uh all that

2129
02:42:56,560 --> 02:43:05,600
residents get in this town.
And when I mentioned within municipal

2130
02:43:02,000 --> 02:43:10,800
control, that is that 17% of the pie. So
for every dollar that we collect, so we

2131
02:43:09,120 --> 02:43:16,479
collect the taxes for all of these
entities. So uh people do get mad that

2132
02:43:13,760 --> 02:43:19,920
their taxes are whatever they are. Uh
they think that you're to blame, that

2133
02:43:18,160 --> 02:43:26,640
we're to blame, but we're really only
responsible for 17% of that. Uh the

2134
02:43:22,960 --> 02:43:36,479
library gets 2%, county about 16% and
the school about 64% of the tax bill.

2135
02:43:31,920 --> 02:43:41,120
Um now in light of these challenges uh
we we wanted to make sure that because

2136
02:43:38,800 --> 02:43:47,120
we also do set the open space tax that
we consider uh our outlook our

2137
02:43:45,600 --> 02:43:51,600
commitment to open space parks and
recreation all the projects on the

2138
02:43:48,720 --> 02:43:56,800
horizon but also find a way to offer
some relief to taxpayers and I just want

2139
02:43:54,640 --> 02:44:02,080
to highlight some things that we've done
uh recently and have in the works.

2140
02:43:59,680 --> 02:44:06,399
playgrounds three I'm sorry uh two
playgrounds already completed with two

2141
02:44:04,000 --> 02:44:12,240
more at Colony Pool uh coming up for
upgrade. We've preserved Fensky property

2142
02:44:09,120 --> 02:44:17,840
as open space. Uh we are rehabbing the
Colony Pool walls. Uh that's a cost of

2143
02:44:15,120 --> 02:44:24,240
$600,000 that's in progress and will be
coming up uh to completion very soon.

2144
02:44:21,200 --> 02:44:30,880
And as we talked about earlier today
uh ADA improvements over at Astra Field.

2145
02:44:27,200 --> 02:44:37,520
So proposing a rate reduction to 1.5% as
opposed to the default of 2%. So that

2146
02:44:33,840 --> 02:44:44,640
will uh generally provide a decrease in
the levy of about $175,000

2147
02:44:41,279 --> 02:44:50,080
which is some relief to taxpayers uh
that that is within your control. And

2148
02:44:47,680 --> 02:44:55,920
then finally outside of the budget but
part of the budget process is the sewer

2149
02:44:52,960 --> 02:44:59,840
utility. And uh they say it's out of the
budget but part of the process. That's

2150
02:44:58,240 --> 02:45:03,600
because it is a utility. So it's
self-liquidating which means that the

2151
02:45:01,439 --> 02:45:08,319
revenue from this sewer utility have to
support the operations and it's got its

2152
02:45:06,160 --> 02:45:15,040
own fee structure which is what we call
rents. That's what uh covers it. The

2153
02:45:11,200 --> 02:45:21,520
budget this year is 3.36
uh versus last year 3,315,000.

2154
02:45:18,080 --> 02:45:25,840
That's just an increase of uh $45,000.
We do a thorough analysis of the costs

2155
02:45:23,359 --> 02:45:30,160
there while m maintaining all the
infrastructure improvements that are

2156
02:45:27,760 --> 02:45:35,359
necessary to keep the sewer utility
operating. Nobody wants a backup in

2157
02:45:32,399 --> 02:45:41,120
their sewer utility. Uh that is a
missionritical operation over there.

2158
02:45:38,000 --> 02:45:47,200
Very very uh sensitive piece of uh piece
of the puzzle. Uh all the equipment

2159
02:45:43,439 --> 02:45:52,160
there is is uh tend to 247. We've got
six dedicated full-time employees. uh we

2160
02:45:50,160 --> 02:45:58,479
share the administrative staff and so we
aortion those costs from the township.

2161
02:45:54,960 --> 02:46:02,560
uh our uh foreman over there who's uh
operating the plant has really done a

2162
02:46:00,880 --> 02:46:06,240
great job as they do over there of
holding the line on any discretionary

2163
02:46:04,160 --> 02:46:11,439
spending, but they're also subject to
those health insurance increases that we

2164
02:46:07,920 --> 02:46:14,720
are on the township side. And we uh have
utility debt service there. This year

2165
02:46:12,880 --> 02:46:19,120
it's 535,000
and we are also budgeting for a capital

2166
02:46:16,800 --> 02:46:23,680
improvement fund of 250,000.
uh on the horizon. We are expecting that

2167
02:46:21,760 --> 02:46:29,200
we'll need to do a rate study uh
especially with the major impact of the

2168
02:46:26,479 --> 02:46:33,520
headworks project that our engineering
team is working on um and looking to

2169
02:46:32,000 --> 02:46:37,760
apply for that funding through the
state's I bank to keep costs low for

2170
02:46:36,080 --> 02:46:46,120
residents.
So that is uh the municipal budget

2171
02:46:40,880 --> 02:46:46,120
proposed for 2026. Any questions?

2172
02:46:47,120 --> 02:46:52,520
Command of evil. I think you I think you
have some questions.

2173
02:46:52,720 --> 02:46:58,600
» Um okay.
Um

2174
02:46:59,600 --> 02:47:08,880
let's uh so healthcare.
Um that's a lot of money. That's a huge

2175
02:47:06,080 --> 02:47:14,160
increase. Um do you either can you
either speak to like how many people

2176
02:47:10,399 --> 02:47:17,760
that covers or why our experience is so
bad? I mean does it have to do with

2177
02:47:15,600 --> 02:47:22,080
because the percentage of retirees that
we cover versus covering employees like

2178
02:47:20,240 --> 02:47:27,520
I'm trying to understand
>> um so I do get the claims experience

2179
02:47:24,160 --> 02:47:31,680
reports um it it would be because some
of that information is covered under

2180
02:47:28,640 --> 02:47:35,200
HIPPA but it's everything from somebody
may have cancer treatments leukemia

2181
02:47:33,439 --> 02:47:39,439
treatments a large thing that I hear
that's driving healthcare cost is the

2182
02:47:37,120 --> 02:47:44,399
cost of GLPs a lot of the weight loss
drugs a lot more people are using those

2183
02:47:42,080 --> 02:47:50,800
uh which is driving up prescription
costs. Uh so that's one aspect of it,

2184
02:47:47,520 --> 02:47:54,880
but it's it could be anything from uh
you know major major illnesses or

2185
02:47:53,359 --> 02:48:00,880
retirees
um to families, younger younger folks

2186
02:47:58,160 --> 02:48:05,920
with families that have children and uh
that c the family plan costs more. So,

2187
02:48:03,920 --> 02:48:10,640
you know, somebody younger starts off
here in the township, they're single,

2188
02:48:08,720 --> 02:48:14,880
and then as the longer they are with the
township, then uh, you know, may get

2189
02:48:12,640 --> 02:48:19,840
married, have kids. Um, but there's no
one answer as to why it is. It's largely

2190
02:48:16,880 --> 02:48:23,439
because the state as a whole has been
experiencing, uh, a lot of

2191
02:48:21,680 --> 02:48:26,800
mismanagement. I mean, the headlines
right there. There's been mismanagement

2192
02:48:24,960 --> 02:48:31,200
at the state health benefits plan. I
think that's the biggest thing. And also

2193
02:48:29,040 --> 02:48:36,960
over the last couple of years, the towns
that have had better claims experience

2194
02:48:34,640 --> 02:48:42,720
or have been able to leave have left,
which leaves more of the uh towns that

2195
02:48:40,640 --> 02:48:48,240
aren't able to leave left holding the
bag and have to make up for those costs.

2196
02:48:46,240 --> 02:48:51,600
» And and that's what I'm getting at. So
because I know over the years you've

2197
02:48:49,840 --> 02:48:54,960
been looking at moving us outside of the
state plan, anticipating that we were

2198
02:48:53,760 --> 02:48:58,560
going to hit this cliff.
>> Yep. because everybody with good

2199
02:48:57,040 --> 02:49:02,720
experience went outside and got better
rates and everybody with worse and I'm

2200
02:49:00,640 --> 02:49:05,920
like we we seem like a pretty typical
town with a I can't imagine the

2201
02:49:04,319 --> 02:49:10,560
demographic. So I'm trying to figure out
how our experience without you know

2202
02:49:08,479 --> 02:49:14,640
anybody's individual you know being so
much worse than comparable t like I mean

2203
02:49:13,279 --> 02:49:18,240
the burrow I was talking to a friend
they're like oh yeah we jump shipped a

2204
02:49:16,720 --> 02:49:23,120
while ago and I'm like how is our
experience that much different from the

2205
02:49:20,479 --> 02:49:28,000
burrow that we can't seem to get
>> sometimes just a two or three offs it's

2206
02:49:25,680 --> 02:49:31,439
it it can can skew especially for the
size of our township our our workforce I

2207
02:49:30,319 --> 02:49:36,160
don't know the exact size of the
burough's workforce but I think ours is

2208
02:49:33,439 --> 02:49:41,760
smaller Um, so that has something to do
with it. Um, also, you know, and in my

2209
02:49:40,000 --> 02:49:45,680
experience, I've left the state health
benefits plan and other plans and other

2210
02:49:43,359 --> 02:49:50,160
municipalities elsewhere, you sometimes
will get a better rate, a teaser rate in

2211
02:49:48,000 --> 02:49:56,960
the beginning and then you start seeing
those increases later on. Uh so that

2212
02:49:54,479 --> 02:50:01,439
kind of initial jump people are just
being very reactionary and they may you

2213
02:49:59,040 --> 02:50:07,840
know may be good for them in the moment
but there's no um there's no guarantee

2214
02:50:05,520 --> 02:50:12,240
that the future years won't see very
similar or even worse increases

2215
02:50:10,000 --> 02:50:18,080
» that did happen here about 15 years ago.
We went with an outside vendor and then

2216
02:50:16,240 --> 02:50:21,760
I think it was just a year later we went
back to the state of health health

2217
02:50:19,279 --> 02:50:25,120
benefits program.
Um, do you know how many we're covering

2218
02:50:23,359 --> 02:50:28,880
in total? Because it's not staff.
>> I do have We have 51 active and 60

2219
02:50:27,279 --> 02:50:33,359
retirees.
Our CFO is watching and she's sending me

2220
02:50:32,000 --> 02:50:35,359
those stats so I don't have to pull up
the spreadsheets.

2221
02:50:34,960 --> 02:50:42,120
» Thank you.
>> But yeah, 51 active and 60 retirees.

2222
02:50:38,240 --> 02:50:42,120
» Okay. Um

2223
02:50:44,880 --> 02:50:54,240
Okay. So we know there's a lot of like
things that we'll use to manage the

2224
02:50:52,240 --> 02:50:58,479
budget. So we might adjust how much
surplus we use to contribute to the

2225
02:50:57,120 --> 02:51:00,720
budget. We might adjust the route.
There's different things that we use.

2226
02:50:59,680 --> 02:51:06,399
But of course you always have to worry
about the implications for the follow.

2227
02:51:02,479 --> 02:51:10,399
» Correct. Um, so the fact that we're not
doing any of that, is that because you

2228
02:51:08,720 --> 02:51:14,240
have concerns about our ability to
replenish the surplus because surplus

2229
02:51:12,800 --> 02:51:19,279
does account for three and a half
million of this $19 million budget, $18

2230
02:51:18,319 --> 02:51:21,840
million, whatever that was.
>> Y

2231
02:51:20,000 --> 02:51:26,160
» So, it's a big chunk of the budget. So,
we count on being able to replenish

2232
02:51:23,439 --> 02:51:30,640
that. But, but you have concerns.
>> I do. And I don't want to speak for our

2233
02:51:27,680 --> 02:51:34,640
CFO. um she can send me a message if she
thinks so. But from both of us talking

2234
02:51:32,800 --> 02:51:40,640
about this, yeah, we are concerned. So
you'll look here at the trend. Um the

2235
02:51:38,399 --> 02:51:47,680
line that says increase surplus of
operations, you'll see has been dropping

2236
02:51:43,840 --> 02:52:00,080
since 2022. So 2022 increased surplus of
operations was 4,82,000.

2237
02:51:51,760 --> 02:52:04,640
23 3.7 24 3.4 25 3.0 know um that you
know there's a lot of reasons why uh

2238
02:52:02,399 --> 02:52:08,160
that could be one of those you know
everybody talks about lean budgeting

2239
02:52:05,920 --> 02:52:13,520
lean budgeting don't leave any fluff
people some some politicians or

2240
02:52:11,120 --> 02:52:17,680
candidates for office will talk about oh
you know there's a slush fund nobody's

2241
02:52:15,279 --> 02:52:22,160
putting in a slush fund but you you when
you really budget to the dollar and cent

2242
02:52:20,640 --> 02:52:28,560
you're not leaving yourself any wiggle
room and anything that you save or don't

2243
02:52:26,000 --> 02:52:31,520
spend and comes back to the surplus. So
it's not like you know it's just

2244
02:52:30,160 --> 02:52:36,960
disappearing into thin air. The
taxpayers still benefit from it. Um you

2245
02:52:34,240 --> 02:52:41,120
know so that's one thing. Revenues not
meeting expectations

2246
02:52:38,960 --> 02:52:45,760
uh is another thing that affects it. Uh
and it's not that we have been uh not

2247
02:52:43,920 --> 02:52:51,040
meeting expectations in revenue. It's
just that in some areas that rollover is

2248
02:52:48,880 --> 02:52:56,960
less. So I know you're still meeting it
but it's not as great as it was maybe in

2249
02:52:53,920 --> 02:52:59,840
the previous year. Uh and then you know
there's been past politicians who have

2250
02:52:58,319 --> 02:53:04,800
talked about the rut and playing with
the rut. Well the rut affects your

2251
02:53:01,840 --> 02:53:11,359
surplus as well. Uh and then lastly you
know um making sure that you know you're

2252
02:53:08,720 --> 02:53:16,399
not always just appealing to oh we need
a 0% tax rate 0% increase on the tax

2253
02:53:14,080 --> 02:53:21,920
rate every year. And there were years uh
in the past that that had happened. And

2254
02:53:18,160 --> 02:53:26,720
then if you're not bringing in revenue
and expenses keep going up, the only way

2255
02:53:24,560 --> 02:53:32,240
you can do it is through the tax levy.
And I think uh if we were to try to use

2256
02:53:29,359 --> 02:53:38,720
more of this fund balance, uh not only
would be bringing that 1.7 million lower

2257
02:53:35,680 --> 02:53:45,439
than it is, uh it could jeopardize us
for the future.

2258
02:53:41,600 --> 02:53:48,880
» Okay. Um I think that's pretty much
everything I had.

2259
02:53:50,560 --> 02:53:59,120
I have a question on open space tax. So,
so right now the thought process is to u

2260
02:53:56,319 --> 02:54:04,000
take it from two to one and a half.
>> And if I heard you correctly, the

2261
02:54:01,279 --> 02:54:10,800
thinking was to
uh uh soften the

2262
02:54:06,880 --> 02:54:13,680
um impact on the budget. Um I can
appreciate that thinking, but I'm

2263
02:54:11,920 --> 02:54:18,319
wondering if there's more that you
considered. For example, like

2264
02:54:16,240 --> 02:54:26,479
if you project out, do you do you
forecast a a diminished

2265
02:54:23,520 --> 02:54:31,920
need for funds to do open space
activities or um

2266
02:54:30,080 --> 02:54:36,640
uh I don't know. I mean, is there
anything beyond

2267
02:54:33,920 --> 02:54:41,520
what you articulated as as basis for
reducing it by half a point? So we look

2268
02:54:39,680 --> 02:54:45,120
at what's the plan for this year and
what are our plans for coming years and

2269
02:54:43,359 --> 02:54:50,240
we look at our debt service and we look
at our reserve over there. We have a

2270
02:54:47,359 --> 02:54:59,120
healthy balance in the open space fund.
Um this would not um this would not

2271
02:54:54,319 --> 02:55:03,760
impact operations. Uh for open space we
look at large if well let me back up.

2272
02:55:01,920 --> 02:55:08,319
We've got debt service that
unfortunately uh a number of years ago

2273
02:55:06,240 --> 02:55:12,720
prior to my arrival I don't know you
know what the thinking was but they

2274
02:55:10,319 --> 02:55:17,439
bonded for uh a lot lot of those
expenses and they did so in a way that

2275
02:55:14,640 --> 02:55:21,600
now we can't prepay that. So we have
this debt service that we have to pay.

2276
02:55:19,520 --> 02:55:26,240
It would be nice if we could prepay all
of it but we can't. So there's no sense

2277
02:55:24,319 --> 02:55:31,760
in just collecting more revenue to just
sit there, collect interest when the

2278
02:55:29,600 --> 02:55:36,240
homeowners, the property taxpayers could
benefit from that relief rather than it

2279
02:55:33,680 --> 02:55:40,479
just sitting in account uh with us not
really doing much. Uh if there are

2280
02:55:38,640 --> 02:55:44,800
projects and we've talked about a number
of projects, if there are projects,

2281
02:55:42,560 --> 02:55:48,560
there's a planning process involved in
those. There's an engineering process.

2282
02:55:46,960 --> 02:55:52,880
there's typically bidding that's going
to be involved and going through that

2283
02:55:50,319 --> 02:55:58,479
whole process uh to award a contract
then mobilize. So the feeling was for

2284
02:55:56,000 --> 02:56:03,520
any projects within let's say a million
dollars uh that are coming up, we have

2285
02:56:01,200 --> 02:56:08,319
enough in our fund balance in our open
space fund uh that we could and you

2286
02:56:06,720 --> 02:56:11,920
don't make a payment all up at once,
right? Typically you would phase in the

2287
02:56:09,920 --> 02:56:16,960
payment. So you might have a an initial
portion, a midway payment or they're

2288
02:56:14,880 --> 02:56:20,560
paying you as invoices acrew. You're not
going to have a million dollars coming

2289
02:56:18,319 --> 02:56:26,000
out of that fund all at once. So we have
enough to make any payment that would be

2290
02:56:23,840 --> 02:56:31,840
uh necessary for any project that's
forecast uh and then be able to account

2291
02:56:28,960 --> 02:56:37,120
for the balance of that in the 2027
budget for the open space tax

2292
02:56:35,120 --> 02:56:42,479
» and it's not permanent. The default is
two two cents every year. So it will

2293
02:56:40,160 --> 02:56:46,319
automatically go back next year. And if
there was anything very large, we have

2294
02:56:44,399 --> 02:56:51,600
enough to make a down payment on that as
well if we wanted to borrow uh issue

2295
02:56:48,640 --> 02:56:56,240
notes to to borrow. Uh we have enough in
our open space fund for that. So it

2296
02:56:54,640 --> 02:57:02,399
wouldn't preclude us. There really would
not be any harm that I can see in uh

2297
02:56:59,279 --> 02:57:07,840
reducing it to 1.5 this year.
Do you have the numbers on hand? So um

2298
02:57:05,439 --> 02:57:12,640
what's the balance now? And roughly my
recollection it it recharges like about

2299
02:57:11,279 --> 02:57:17,200
800,000 a year, right?
>> Yeah. So the 2% at a full 2% you're

2300
02:57:14,880 --> 02:57:22,160
bringing in about 700,000. Okay.
>> So uh or you just take that 175 multiply

2301
02:57:20,560 --> 02:57:30,000
it by four. That's it. So it's about
700. And I do have the uh

2302
02:57:25,680 --> 02:57:37,200
» do have the open space here. So, um,
with with what we're talking about, you

2303
02:57:32,960 --> 02:57:42,359
know, at a, um, 1.5, the available
balance at the end of the year would be

2304
02:57:38,880 --> 02:57:42,359
about $494,000.

2305
02:58:01,920 --> 02:58:08,800
How have miscellaneous fees been doing?
because I know that I know we can't

2306
02:58:05,439 --> 02:58:14,800
factor that into the revenue, but um I'm
just curious because I know um

2307
02:58:11,200 --> 02:58:18,160
construction fees for uh
uh surprisingly. Yeah. But we're not

2308
02:58:17,040 --> 02:58:22,399
going to budget for that because that's
not traditional year. But we and then

2309
02:58:20,319 --> 02:58:27,200
but then you do get that kind of
followup that the ratables will increase

2310
02:58:25,439 --> 02:58:30,640
based on the construction that was done.
And and again, we're not going to roll

2311
02:58:29,279 --> 02:58:32,960
the dice and bet that we're going to be
able to replenish. want to be

2312
02:58:32,000 --> 02:58:37,359
comfortable if they're able to
replenish. But um I'm just curious to

2313
02:58:35,359 --> 02:58:41,200
know has have you seen a decline in that
as well or

2314
02:58:38,479 --> 02:58:47,680
» um so uniform construction code fees we
left that at uh 425 which is the same as

2315
02:58:44,960 --> 02:58:53,200
what we anticipated last year. So that
was um slightly lower than what was

2316
02:58:50,640 --> 02:58:59,680
anticipated in 2024. We did bring in
more revenue this year. Um but um you

2317
02:58:57,040 --> 02:59:06,080
know we felt 425 was was a comfortable
safe number. Interest obviously interest

2318
02:59:02,640 --> 02:59:10,479
is going down. That's an example right
down. So while we did benefit from uh

2319
02:59:08,640 --> 02:59:14,880
renegotiating our agreement with the
bank and getting better rates they've

2320
02:59:12,960 --> 02:59:19,200
now gone down. So we are expecting that
sort of revenue to go down as well.

2321
02:59:17,600 --> 02:59:24,399
» Okay.
But overall, um, the revenue outside of

2322
02:59:21,760 --> 02:59:29,960
the grants, as I mentioned, is up, uh,
about 200 and change, $212,000.

2323
02:59:31,600 --> 02:59:34,600
» Okay.

2324
02:59:38,640 --> 02:59:48,160
And again, sort of the the equation is
if we were to up that, right, um that's

2325
02:59:44,720 --> 02:59:54,240
less for future years. Uh that
potentially for future years or if we

2326
02:59:50,560 --> 02:59:58,920
don't make those numbers, then again uh
would have an impact on future years

2327
02:59:55,920 --> 02:59:58,920
too.

2328
03:00:00,319 --> 03:00:07,560
» Okie dokie. This is not this is a very
very difficult budget year.

2329
03:00:11,760 --> 03:00:15,319
Any other questions?

2330
03:00:18,800 --> 03:00:24,080
Okay.
>> I want to thank you all. I want to thank

2331
03:00:22,640 --> 03:00:28,800
the finance committee. I really want to
thank our CFO Debbie King and uh our

2332
03:00:26,720 --> 03:00:35,720
assistant treasur at Davenport. They are
fantastic. So, uh, really appreciate all

2333
03:00:31,279 --> 03:00:35,720
the hardware work they're doing on this.

2334
03:00:36,080 --> 03:00:42,479
» Okay, if no further questions, uh, we
can go to the second hearing of

2335
03:00:40,240 --> 03:00:46,160
citizens. Same rules apply as
previously.

2336
03:00:44,319 --> 03:00:48,240
I'm still anyone online with their hand
raised.

2337
03:00:46,720 --> 03:00:52,279
» Just to receive a vote.
>> Oh, okay.

2338
03:00:54,240 --> 03:01:02,479
» Okay. Uh then I will close the second
hearing of citizens and I will seek a

2339
03:00:59,359 --> 03:01:05,439
motion to adjourn the meeting.
So moved.

2340
03:01:04,479 --> 03:01:07,680
» Well second.
>> Okay.

2341
03:01:06,640 --> 03:01:11,120
» I
>> I

2342
03:01:10,240 --> 03:01:15,640
thank you.
>> Thank you everybody. Thank you everyone.