and.
>>
so.
Buying this.
Good morning everyone.
For the record my name is liz
breadon, city
council PRESIDENT, district
nine city councilor and chair
of the boston city
council committee on rules,
ethics and administration.
Today is AUGUST 13th 2026 and
the exact time is 10:08 A.M..
This hearing is being recorded.
It is also being live
streamed@boston.Gov.
Uh backslash.
City council dash tv and
broadcast on xfinity channel
eight rcn uh channel 82.
Fios channel 964.
Written comments MAY be sent to
the committee email uh
scarborough uh boston.Gov.
And were made a part of the
record and available to all
councilors.
Public testimony will be taken
at the end of the hearing.
Individuals would be called on
in the order in which they
signed up and will have two
minutes to testify.
If you're interested in
testifying in person, please
add your name to the sign up
sheet near the entrance of the
chamber and if you're looking
to testify virtually, please
email our central staff liaison
megan at megan.
Meg and megan dot c o r u g
doma rta and@boston.Gov for the
link and your name will be
added to the list.
Today's hearing is on docket
number 0475.
Order for a hearing to review
the application and intent
of rule 15 this matter.
It was co-sponsored by
councilors aaron flynn and
councilmember um erin murphy
and councilor flynn and was
referred to the committee on
MARCH 4th 2026.
Uh, today I am joined by my
colleagues uh, in order
of arrival councilor flynn.
Um, councilor murphy and we
have a letter of absence, uh,
from councilor pepen.
Just, uh I'd like to start with
some opening remarks.
I want to thank, uh, michelle
goldberg and alex of the city
clerk for being here and and to
and bring resources to this
process being we began this
term with a collaborative rules
process, uh, multiple working
sessions.
And this hearing is a great
opportunity to discuss the
rules and ensure they're
meeting the needs of the
council and current practice.
This is a chance for us to
step.
Back.
>> look at how the rule is
functioning and ask what
improvements, if any might help
us operate more smoothly.
Every councilor has been around
rule 15 at some point there's a
share.
There's a shared desire to make
sure our rules are leading to.
Excuse me.
A councilor has been uh uh
every councilor has been rule
15 at some point and there's a
shared desire to make sure our
rules are leading to a smooth
as smooth a council process.
>> as possible.
Uh, we've also been joined by
councilor fitzgerald.
Um, we'll start off um I'd like
to also introduce today's
panelists.
Uh, alex karanka's who's our
city truck uh, of the city
clerk of the city of boston and
michelle goldberg, uh, who's
the central staff director for
the city of boston.
Um, we'll open up with, um, two
minutes opening statements for
the for uh, colleagues, um,
councilor my constituents and
countryman murphy, since you're
the lead sponsor.
Uh, if you'd like to start.
Thank you.
Um.
Thank you.
It's different to see you,
michelle and clark.
Um, across.
But thank you for being here.
Like I said, I know since it's
my fifth year on the council we
have had and I think it's a
productive thing to do.
Uh, meet during a term in the
crowley room talking through
the rules.
I know when council of flynn
was the PRESIDENT A couple
times we just went through all
the rules to kind of make sure
we were in an understanding
of we're using them to the true
intent of making sure everyone
on the council feels as though
the rules they're not supposed
to be used against us, they're
supposed to support us and help
the work that we push forward.
I was telling um you clark
trent is that when I looked
back we filed this over five
months ago.
So sometimes the you know, the
intent then I had to remind
myself why I felt the need to
put it to a hearing.
Um, and there have been times
where certain filings have been
rule 15 and I do just want to
take a couple seconds of my
time to make sure those
listening in it's clear what
rule 15 means and.
But um.
>> there have been times where
I felt even after speaking to
the clerk and speaking to you,
michelle, that it's still maybe
had been pulled or didn't seem
as though it was being
consistently applied.
Across the board.
So rule 15 governs the filing
of matters that are duplicative
or of substantial similar
matters already in committee or
previously acted upon during
that municipal year.
It provides that it shall not
preclude filings whose content
is on a different sub topic or
for which a hearing or debate
would not result in the same
hearing or the same debate as a
previous filing.
So of course there's open to
interpretation.
Um the clerk is charged with
placing on the agenda only the
first file matter when filings
are determined.
To be duplicative.
>> or substantially similar.
And in the case that brought
me to do this, it was a women's
history month resolution and I
did get a call at my house, um,
on a friday morning, um, from
the clerk to say, you know,
these are similar and or and
then we talked through and
changes were made in time.
And even though those changes
were made it was still rule 15.
And you know, other things kind
of snowballed after that.
But um I think it's important
that consistency and flaherty
in this conversation I hope
will get us to a place where
people feel as though.
You know, things are being done
fairly 100% agree that if
something is duplicative rules
apply to everyone you can't
file it.
I also think there's a small
right it's a finite it's not an
infinite number of filings that
we can work on on the
council and many times they are
very similar in nature,
especially when we all care
about many of the similar
quality of life issues.
So maybe it's a different
intent or a different outcome
we're hoping for and they MAY
seem similar, but I do think we
should make sure we're using
the.
Rules to support each other and
support the work that
ultimately we're always trying
to uplift.
>> the residents.
Not personally ourselves.
So looking forward to this
conversation and thank you for.
Both of you for being here for
it.
Thank you.
Councilor flynn.
And thank you, MADAM Chair and
.
Thank you for your leadership
on this issue.
MADAM Chair.
And I want to say thank you to
our city clerk and to the staff
director for the important
professional work they do every
day on behalf of the city
council but on behalf of the
residents of the city as well.
i want to say thank you to
councilor murphy for bringing
this forward, including me as
an original co-sponsor that
councilor murphy highlighted
the importance of rule 15 one
aspect of rule 15.
I just want to stress is.
Having everybody be consistent
.
Everybody knows the rules.
Everybody knows what to expect
.
Ensuring that everybody is
heard.
Everybody has respect even when
we disagree.
We can give someone an
explanation of why fifth rule
15 might be might preclude that
matter from moving forward and
with an explanation that it's
duplicative or very similar.
I think that answer with an
explanation goes a long way.
So I'm just want to encourage
my colleagues, um, to continue
to work with the chair, work
with the city clerk with the
with the staff director as
well.
And this is an important city
council hearing one of the most
important of of of the year
because it gives everybody an
important opportunity to ask
questions directly to the
clerk, directly to the staff
director and they know these
rules um, extremely well and
this is our opportunity to
engage with them and want to
encourage my colleagues to ask
pertinent questions.
And this is the time to do it.
So we want to welcome all of my
colleagues that are here.
I know city
councilor fitzgerald is here as
well.
um thank you, MADAM Chair.
Thank you.
Um councilor fitzgerald.
Thank you, MADAM PRESIDENT.
Um, as always at the beginning
of this year when I, uh.
First blocked.
Uh, the first meeting to make
sure we understood the rules
of starting off the city
council here.
I always appreciate
understanding the rules more
and making sure we're all on
the same page.
Uh, and so I'm here to learn
and educate myself more and
look to you guys as always and
thank you all for the work you
do to educate us every day I
appreciate it.
Uh that's all thank you ma'am.
Thank you.
>> um.
So, um I've introduced our
today's panelists.
Um, I'd just like to give you
councilor um, MR. Clerk and.
And.
>> um, michelle, uh, director
of um central staff if you have
any, uh, remarks to opening
remarks to make at this point.
>> it's okay.
Go ahead.
Yeah, I think I'm.
I think you're good.
Um, well, um, happy to be here
today for this discussion.
Um, really fun to sit on this
side.
Um, I think, um I didn't really
prepare it but, you know, big
opening statement or anything
like that.
Um, but I think all of you
covered it in terms of, you
know, the city council rules
are meant to support the work
of the body.
um, and I mean, that's the
whole point.
So, um, important to review
them, make sure that they are
doing what the body wants them
to be doing.
Um, and equally important to
make sure that councilors staff
and the clerk's office are all
on the same page.
So, um, thank you to the chair.
Thank you to the sponsors.
Um, thank you for to everyone
here for um the opportunity to
to talk about rule 15 which is
one of our more.
Um, you know.
I don't wanna say confusing but
you know, um.
Uh.
>> rules that is is sometimes
difficult to interpret.
So thank you.
MISTER Chair.
Thank you, council for the
invitation to be here today.
Uh.
Likewise myself.
It's it's a great opportunity
to review the rules and.
Rule 15.
For me as the clerk and our
staff upstairs we take, uh, um.
Great time upstairs to review
rule 15.
Items when we get them.
So.
>> uh, the process can be.
Difficult and, uh, time
consuming.
But you know, we do get things
done and, uh, determined what
that.
Choice will be and contact the
council as affected and, uh, I
look forward to the
conversation.
Thank you, mr clerk.
We've been joined by
councilor durkan and
councilor weber.
Um, I followed my colleagues
two minutes of opening
comments.
Would you, councilor durkan,
would you?
Thank you so much,
council PRESIDENT.
Um, I think it's always
important to review the rules.
They're incredibly important.
It's you know, and I also
believe in, um, supporting the
clerk, um, when he makes
certain determinations.
Um, there was.
>> an instance with rule 15
where.
I think I had.
Three, uh, hearing orders on
speed humps at one time in my
committee.
So I think this role has been
incredibly important to me.
Um, I you know, back to the
women's history month filing.
I did think it was duplicative
and I did cite rule 15.
Um, upon further review I do
think rule 15 and um is really
intended to be used by the
clerk and not by city
councilors.
But um with that being said, I
believe that city councilors
have um you know, carte blanche
to not pass something on the
first day that it's introduced
if it is at all controversial
um and or if it at all needs
more time.
Um, so I definitely stand
behind my um, initial uh I did
think it was pretty similar.
Um, and um but I I don't want
to be considered someone who
just, you know, doing things on
the basis of um, personalities
or anything.
So I appreciate, um, this
hearing and I appreciate, um,
the chance to talk about it.
Um, and I'll just say that, um
,I think that when we get a
call from the clerk saying that
our filing is too similar.
Um, there have been times where
I've just withdrawn my filing
and said, okay, great.
I'll support.
>> the work of my colleague
that's doing that work.
Um, and I you know, I think we
actually have to talk to each
other to have those
conversations and I think as a
body uh, we need to have more
communication and more
collegiality and, um and we do
need to work together more.
And so, um, I think in the case
where someone has filed
something super similar to you,
it might behoove us to pick up
the phone and see if you can be
a second or a third rather than
filing something very similar.
Thank you.
>> councilor durkan.
Um, chair recognizes councilor.
Uh, whether.
>> you just got two minutes.
Uh, thank you very much.
And I think, uh, if you.
>> look at.
Like the.
>> history of the language
of rule 15 and why it's there
there's.
>> good.
Policy reasons why.
You would have something like
that to prevent duplicative
filings and to be able to keep
the body, uh, moving forward
and efficient, uh, and to
prevent debate over the same
thing over and over again.
Uh, and I also appreciate that
we have, uh, you know, sort
of a nonpartisan clerk who's an
umpire calling and strikes and
so rule 15 or something I know
in our office we talk about a
lot.
It's one of you know, we're
talking about an idea about
whether to file something if it
would be a rule 15 to we don't
file it.
Um, and uh, look forward to the
conversation to figure out if
there's any ways we can improve
the function of the rule or how
to work with the clerk or how
to better work with each other
as a body.
Uh, I'm all for it.
Thank you.
Um.
So we'll move on to.
Uh, questions.
Um.
Councilor murphy, would you
like to start and give you and
we'll give you seven minutes
for.
Uh, give our.
Colleague seven.
>> minutes to see if I can set
up the thank you, MADAM Chair.
Oh.
>> good morning.
I beg your pardon?
Culpeper.
I'd like to recognize the
council.
Culpeper has joined us.
Would you like to take a two
minute, uh, opening statement
if you'd.
Like to use the time.
Thank you.
>> thank you.
Thank you.
>> chair I.
>> think rule 15 makes sense in
principle and, uh, I don't
think we need to keep fouling
debating the exact same thing
over and over again.
But in practice I think there
were some times when the rule
can be confusing, particularly
when dealing with issues uh are
changing and things have
changed outside in real time.
I think something and so
there's one issue we saw that
with that uh.
So the issue that.
Was voted down by the
council but when things changed
with the homicide we brought it
back and it was approved and so
I don't think we should
automatically treat a new
conversation as the same
conversation because it falls
on in the same general subject
.
But I do think we can discuss
it and and here's what's really
been good for me and exciting
for me is the way it's been
handled, uh, without any real
regimented protocol for how
it's been handled in writing.
I think the clerk or his office
has come to us.
We've discussed it.
For me it was good discussion
but I think in other times it
can get out of hand.
So I just think we need to talk
through this see what makes
sense.
Um, but I do think there's some
things we can clarify uh, maybe
even be more flexible making
sure rule 15 prevents
duplication without preventing
this body from responding when
an issue is really changing.
So yeah, I think the clerk's
office has.
For me we've got a great
relationship.
i love when they come to
me with something and ask give
me their opinion because you
know I'm gonna have my opinion
and my interpretation.
So it's been it's been good.
I just think we need to nail
down some protocol on how we
anticipate the discussion is
going to take place.
Otherwise I hope it was good to
go.
Thank you, councilor culpeper.
Um, constable murphy, um.
Let me see if I can send this
to.
That so I can start seven
minutes.
Seven minutes.
>> thank you.
>> um, and for me, like I said
in my opening statement, the
filing when I looked back to
the timing was I forget it now
I've moved on but it was based
to that particular filing but
has been an ongoing issue.
I know we've shall we have many
conversations alex I go up to
the sixth floor often and thank
you to both of you for.
You know.
,talking through and you know,
trying to come to some
understanding on issues related
to the rules.
And it is.
True when you read the.
Rule there is a lot of.
Words in there that sometimes
MAY get lost on the floor when
it's like you know, when it's
the council meeting and
something's blocked on the
floor.
It's not the same as a
conversation beforehand.
But in this case I had talked
to the clerk's office and I had
made substantial changes and
when it was blocked on the
floor it was after because it
even says right in the rule
topics for which context has a
content has evolved since the
previous filing or things have
changed or the wording has
changed to make it clearer.
And in that particular case I
already felt as though the
intent and my conversation with
you we both agreed that the
outcome of those two filings
were very different.
One was.
Focusing on.
Federal state.
Overall rights for women, which
is an important hearing.
I think we could have voted and
supported both easily.
Mine was more based on you know
as the chair a strong women
families and communities
supporting and highlighting the
work of women here in the city
to different outcomes also and
tying it to a celebration that
most of our colleagues joined
in and uplifting women across
the city and thanking them for
their contributions.
But I guess a procedural
question would be and I'll tie
it to that day at that hearing.
If I've already spoken to the
clerk's office and changes have
been made and then.
A block which everyone has the
right to do and then when what
is the correct procedure
because it's been said a couple
of times you know you are kind
of like the umpire the final
say is on.
The clerk.
But when the chair decides to
block it after conversations
and I came into a meeting
feeling as though the clerk's
office agreed it shouldn't be
blocked, what procedures is it?
Call a recess to make sure that
.
>> you.
Know it gets communicated.
>> do you just let it go and
try.
>> to file again?
>> is that what seems.
To happen when you're in.
The midst of like the meeting
and the two minute clerk is
going people want to get to the
next agenda item, but you're
feeling as though.
Your filing is not getting the
time it needs.
But work had been done
beforehand to make sure there
shouldn't be any.
Confusion and there MAY be a
miscommunication between the
council PRESIDENT And the clerk
or your.
Communications with your
office.
So how can you speak to that to
make sure going forward?
Anyone who feels like at the
moment at the hearing, how do
you advocate for yourself and.
Push to make sure that it's not
.
Taken off the agenda or
blocked?
Yeah, I.
>> mean I think just um.
So that's a really good example
of kind of like the interplay
of a couple different rules.
Um, and for me I don't remember
every detail from the from the
situation but um, you know,
rule 15 is something that takes
place before the agenda ever um
is published.
So rule 15 is really something
that lays with the clerk um,
and the clerk's office in terms
of what makes it onto the
agenda um, under those kind of.
You know.
Um.
>> considerations to try to
make things not duplicative and
things like that.
Um, once something is on the
agenda and comes before the
body um, there's kind of a
second catchall for duplicative
matters which would be under
rule five.
So that would be something
where then the
council PRESIDENT Has the
discretion to rule something
out of order due to it being
substantially similar,
duplicative or already taken up
in a given municipal year.
Um, that is a separate um.
Inquiry just from an objection
to taking.
>> a vote.
So um, you know, I think
there's a distinct you know,
there are different distinguish
distinguish between like
something being on the agenda
coming to the floor and then
passing.
Before the body.
Um, so when something is
objected to for a vote on the
day it's introduced, um, it
doesn't have to be because of.
>> a rule.
It would just be like the
objection is just the
objection.
Um.
>> rule five would be.
To rule something out of order
because it's duplicative on the
day of a meeting.
And rule 15 would be.
To exactly.
Yeah.
>> so is there conversation at
the pre meeting.
So there is an understanding
when there's a pre meeting on
wednesday with the
council PRESIDENT And the
clerk's office that everything
that has made it through has
already been checked.
Yes.
>> and if the PRESIDENT Has no
personal questions and feels as
though that's right of course
they have an opinion maybe it
would come.
>> up would it come up.
>> on wednesday before the.
Council meeting start if they
had any questions could it.
I guess.
>> well you know most of the
dockets of course they get
filed up in the office before
ten uh so we have to review
each docket and of course if I
find a duplicate of docket all
the my staff does then we have
to review it.
Uh.
See.
>> we have the 10:00 deadline
and so.
>> I mean the wednesday meeting
that happens kind of to check
in before the.
Council starts like.
So all the dockets have been
arranged and you know, on the
agenda.
So we're.
Evergreen review all the items
that the pre meeting and we go
over what committee they should
be assigned to and review them.
Uh if there was a rule 15 on a
particular docket of course
that would all been made out
and decided before they even
got in on onto the agenda.
So to me if we uh solve the
issue then it's a regular
docket that's on the agenda.
That any council colleague.
Could lock in to.
>> be right.
So what is the correct
procedure especially if after
the fact the chair agreed that
it probably shouldn't have been
blocked but it.
Was and I get that when things
are happening in real time
things don't always.
Go the way maybe be wanted but
how do you then fix that right?
How do you come back properly?
I know I know the rules and.
Robert's order but.
Especially when it's a timely
resolution.
I that you wanted to.
Have a vote on.
You don't want a hearing you
don't want to block.
There's nothing to talk about.
>> it's tied to a celebration
like a flag raising.
Yeah.
>> so I.
Think the two mechanisms would
be if it's during the same
meeting it could be a
reconsideration.
Um if it's stirring um if it's
after a meeting um it would be
by pulling it from the green
sheets at the next meeting.
Um, for that vote.
Sometimes we do you know, on
many occasions we've taken a
recess as well to discuss
certain things.
Yeah.
And if there's an issue or
there's, uh, some ambiguity on
a on a particular docket,
of course we would take a a
short recess to discuss it as
well.
And do you.
Both feel as though that's
reasonable if one of.
>> the.
Councilors feels as though
there isn't enough time, you
know, because it's quick, it's.
Moving fast and.
Procedures are being trumped
with another one.
And do you feel it's reasonable
to call a recess to get
flaherty, to.
Feel as though.
>> it's not being moved on and
then pushed aside?
Yeah, well if a
council believes that you know
they need to have.
A further explanation.
Like to me by for my opinion
would be take a short recess
and discuss that a little bit
more and of course like
michelle said you know
council can move for
reconsideration in the same
meeting.
Of course once the meeting ends
then the next meeting you can
have the option of pulling it
from committee.
All right thank you thank.
You chair recognizes
councilor flynn construed um.
I'll have to reset.
Seven minutes.
>> well thank you, MADAM Chair.
And thank you again to the city
clerk and to the city
council staff director for the
important work you do every day
on behalf of the city
council and the residents
of boston.
I believe we have.
Rules in place to ensure that
the meetings go smoothly.
They go effectively,
efficiently and so that the
public has a sense that this
body is a serious body,
understands the rules and is
doing the people's work, the
critical work of the residents
of boston whether it's on
public safety, whether it's on
public education, public health
or whatever it is my my main
point is as the former city
council PRESIDENT Just
providing positive leadership
to all city councilors
regardless if you politically
agree with them or politically
disagree with them, that should
be relevant to the case in
deciding how you're going to
for several I think as as a
body we have to listen to each
other.
We have to respect each other,
put personalities aside, um,
put politics aside and do
what's best for the residents
of boston and that is coming
together to solve problems and
work with our colleagues,
especially when we don't agree
with each other.
We can be we can we can still
support each other.
We can still work with each
other even if we don't
necessarily agree with each
other.
And that's what I've tried to
do as the as the as the city
council PRESIDENT And the city
council here.
I just want us to continue to
move forward where as a body we
respect each other and the
public knows that we come to
work every day to do the
people's business.
The public needs to be
comfortable knowing that we
show up every single day and on
wednesday we know exactly what
we're doing and doing our due
diligence and providing the
critical leadership for the
residents of boston.
Thank you, MADAM Chair.
Thank you, councilor flynn.
Um.
Councilor fitzgerald.
Thank you, MADAM PRESIDENT.
Um, let's start with some
of the basics.
What is the process right now?
Oh, okay.
The process for the, uh, went
for the agenda.
All the dockets are due by
10:00 on monday.
Um, although council was have
the opportunity to file things
from the day after the
wednesday meaning till that
month the next monday.
Uh, unfortunately a lot
of councils don't file their
dockets until 10 minutes or 15
minutes before the deadline.
So if you can.
Imagine like the last meeting
we had like I don't know 50
dockets on the agenda so that's
very time consuming to process
each docket to make sure that
it's in proper form to get the
agenda created.
And then when we do get the
issues uh, rule 15 then I we
have to stop and review those
items.
So I have to read the uh the
order that is currently for the
agenda.
Then I have to compare.
It to the previous order file
like a few months before.
So that's time consuming.
And I also have to meet the
requirements of the open
meeting law because the agenda
has to be posted at 12 noon.
So so we do our due diligence,
we create our uh the agenda and
I do contact the council uh,
personally uh regarding a rule
15 issue and either we speak on
the phone or I go to the office
and uh and that's happened with
uh most of the council was here
on the council now have gotten
phone calls for me regarding
rule 15 and a lot and 99%
of the time the council is very
agreeable.
We change a few words here and
there we change the title or
the it's better or it's pulled
and it's reworded and filed at
the next meeting.
So from that perspective, um,
you know the back and forth
with the council is usually
pretty positive.
And at that point who would
win.
Out on a.
>> rule 15 is that the person
who files first?
Well when you file a document
in the granicus it gets time
stamped.
So whoever gets the timestamp
first then that is the doc that
will be placed on on the
agenda.
And I imagine what we look for
when looking at rule 15 is that
you know, all of us councilors
work word things a certain way
to try and reflect a message or
something button and a certain
light.
But um I imagine that you look
for similar words.
Similar yeah very similar
message you know I mean that
and that's but ultimately the
final call is in your hands.
Yeah.
>> over the uh I would.
>> read both.
Dockets if they for me I picked
uh try to find similar words
and similar themes sometimes
the titles are exactly the same
as well.
Uh and then I make a
determination if it's a
duplicate or not.
But I also converse with the
essential staff and with uh
council uh attorney for the
council as well and we all come
to a determination sometimes
it's easy to determine if it's
a real 15 but other times it
isn't.
So you know I call the
counselor and we talk about it
and we try to review things and
you know last year we had
several rule fifteens on white
stadium and that those were
difficult uh discussions to
have because some you know that
was a very hot issue and uh
back in 2025 so and most of the
times the council would have
pulled it back and reworded it
and filed it at the next
meeting.
I guess what's difficult to
kind of separate too is in an
issue.
There can be many sub issues
and and you could file
something on that issue.
You could file something on the
subset of that issue and a
subset of that subset issue and
is that in your eyes if you
look at subsets of issues does
that still ultimately rise
under the statewide stadium for
example does that all say well,
someone else already filed
something around a larger
purview.
Of you.
>> know, economic development
in white stadium and so there's
no need for that specific
language of a separate one even
if it was time stamped prior.
right.
>> I don't you know, it.
Depends on the uh the closing
paragraph for me is what I
usually focus on because you
know, they MAY be to look it up
words at the beginning of the
order but at the end the
summary tells me exactly what
the council is intent is uh,
most of the time and uh and if
the intent is different than
what the original one is I give
them the benefit give the
council the benefit of the
doubt.
But in other instances it's it
brings the same to me and I.
After conversing with uh, the
central staff and and reviewing
it again and then we make a
determination from there.
And how long has this current
rule 15 been operating as it
currently does?
Uh, well.
In 2020 the 26.
Rules it's just the clerk makes
the determination in 24 it was
the uh the PRESIDENT.
And the clerk and then in 22 it
was just the clerk.
Okay.
>> so it's gone back and it was
now reverted back.
To the clerk.
Um.
,okay.
Um and in those in going back
and forth and back and forth
which were I mean personally I
see the checks and balances
of you making being defined
elaborated on that I would.
Yeah well in I was with.
>> the.
Council PRESIDENT.
>> I would I would go down to
the office and discuss it with
her and and review the points
that I thought were similar in
nature and and you know, nine
times out of ten the the
PRESIDENT Would have agreed
with me and then I would go to
the council to the counselor
and discuss it further and then
we would go from there.
All right.
>> uh and that I think you've
done a great job at that clerk
and I can as long as we trust
the person in your position to
,uh, arbitrarily and fairly
make those decisions, I think
it's a good check and balance
on the council.
Um.
>> and I appreciate all your
work and time that you put into
that and we'll try and get it a
little bit in before ten
minutes to the deadline.
It out.
>> thank you council.
Great thank you.
That is all MADAM PRESIDENT.
Thank you councilor fitzgerald
chair recognizes I know just.
Recently pete.
Chair recognizes
councilor durkan country you
have the floor.
Thank you so much chair
bratton.
Um and actually clark I
recognize that at the last, um
,I filed something pretty late
and it was one of the first
things on the agenda.
So I was my first inkling that
people were filing things
pretty late.
So, um, so not an easy job that
you have putting an agenda
together in two hours.
Um, and also not an easy job
that, um, you rely on us to re
approve you for your job so
you're often trying to be the
most fair and do a great job
and a great balancing act.
So clark, thank you for all
that you do.
Um, and, um, I know when it's
time for you to retire we're
going to we're going to have to
give you so many flowers
because we put you through a
lot in the past few years.
Um, so I definitely think
there's a difference between
rule 15 and rule 33.
Um, so I just wanted to ask a
question about um obviously um
I think in the specific um
anecdote that's was the cause
of this hearing.
Um, I objected to a filing on
the basis of rule 15, but rule
33 is actually.
>> the.
Rule that allows for a city
councilor to, um, you know,
object to a filing.
Can you speak a little more to
that?
Um, to rule 33 and uh,
obviously um, rule 33 is where
it is derived that city
councilors can object on the
first day um, like on you know,
on the first day that it's
introduced before the council.
But well, usually the uh on the
um.
One step back we're going to
move 15 of the rule 15 uh
issues take place before the
agenda is even published.
So when the agenda when we come
to our meeting and the agenda
is all there and ready to go,
uh, and if a docket doesn't get
unanimous consent to pass and
then there's an objection
of course it goes to committee.
So like there were two
objections in the last meeting.
Yes.
so that that whatever happens
in the meeting I think it
doesn't really reflect back to
rule 15 because that was
already you know, the issue was
reviewed prior to the meeting.
So it's kind of it's improper
you know, taking the women's
history month as the anecdote
here, um, it's improper to cite
rule 15 because rule 15 the
powers with the clerk wear rule
33 the powers with the council.
Okay.
>> um and I guess um, I know
when I want to pass something
the same day there's a number
of people I usually need to
talk to to ensure that it's not
going to be blocked.
Otherwise I might be surprised
on the day that I file
something.
Um, particularly there's a
couple of landmarks that I
tried to suspend in past that
were objected to.
Um, so I know that if I want to
bring something to the floor on
the same day for passage that
often I need to check with my
colleagues to make sure that
they're okay with suspension
and passage on on the day and
that is because of rule 33
knowing that, um, you know,
someone might want a hearing
for a specific docket, they
might want more information um,
at least for me for rule 15
given all everything that
you've, you know, already
spoken to and given the
verbiage um, and given that the
city council um unanimously
approved the rules um, I don't
have any questions about rule
15 in particular.
Um, I will say that um, now
having this hearing um and
hearing from my colleagues uh,
on this issue, I think it's
improper to cite rule 15 as a
reason that you're objecting to
a docket.
So, um, given that that gives
power to the clerk and not to
the.
Council.
>> um, I'll say that I haven't
always been completely
satisfied with um, rule 15,
particularly when it comes to
my committee.
Um, because often there are
duplicative dockets that I end
up combining to have one
hearing on the subject because
it's the same stakeholders that
are interested in the multiple
subject matter.
I think my uh, charge for our
colleagues is that if you
jointly care about an issue, we
should work on those issues
together.
And I think it actually creates
for a more robust hearing when
especially just um, with
planning, development and
transportation I think it
creates for a more robust
hearing when all of the people
who care about a specific
subject matter are working on
the same docket and working on
the same issue.
Um, and I think that if
colleagues.
Were willing to talk to each
other, a lot of these issues
would not exist.
Um, because we know baseline
what our colleagues were
working on.
Um, so we would yeah.
And there have been times where
I call it being scooped you get
scooped on an issue, you care
deeply about it.
you've already you MAY have
already written the filing.
It might be sitting in your
drive and it gets filed before
um one of those examples was um
single stare uh, reform um, my
office had been part of a
statewide working group for
literally six months.
We were joining meetings for
six months on single stair
reform and the
council PRESIDENT And her team
had been working on the same
thing.
She filed it and I went
directly to her office and
said, you know, hey, I'd really
love to be on this.
I've actually been working on
this statewide.
Um, so um that's the kind
of collaboration that should
exist in the council and
doesn't always exist in the
council.
Um, and I think um it makes it
harder to collaborate with
colleagues when they are
calling you things in the news.
And I think that's something
that we need to think about is
um, if we're going to hurl
things at people in the
news and then not respond to
their emails um, I think that
is really important, um, that
we have that level
of collaboration where if we
asked to meet they'll meet with
us and um, I think that to be
honest like that's where all
this is coming from, we
wouldn't need to have an entire
hearing on roles if we just
talked to each other and had
more collaboration.
Thank you.
Thank you, councilor durkan.
Uh, the chair recognizes, uh,
councilor weber.
Councilor, you have the floor.
Uh.
>> thank you.
Uh, I guess for uh for the
clerk.
Um, so it's a sub topic you can
file something on a sub topic.
How do you define sub topic or
what do you.
Look at to.
Is that just like you know when
you see.
>> it.
For us.
As well I would read it over
and uh you know it depends on
what the outcome is of that
order in the in the summary
of the last paragraph.
That certainly determines for
me if it would be a duplicate
uh, docket or not here.
And even if there was uh like
white stating is a good issue
because then there was a lot
of different orders filed for
white stadium on many different
areas of like construction and
financing and budgeting and
community input and all that.
So you know, those those those
orders were somewhat you know,
a little bit more tedious to
review because I had to
determine what the outcome
of that particular ward or what
the intention of it is.
So nine times out of ten I we
would determine that it is a
separate distinct order and it
doesn't really conflict with
the others even though it
seemed duplicate.
To be to uh.
Duplicate but.
The outcome is different.
So that would be probably the
best example I could give in
terms of a sub a sub topic uh
on an order uh again.
We review it with michelle and
with the council's central
staff and and we come to a
consensus and we go from there.
So uh, I guess is it fair to.
Say that you.
You're you're trying to get.
>> the the, uh, filing.
Onto the agenda like, you know,
you said nine times out of ten
you you can find a sub.
Topic like we.
Just you're for you
individually.
Are you?
Yeah.
>> do you do you.
Are you just.
Looking at this and calling
and strikes on that or are you
trying to find a way to get the
filing you know not you're not
have to invoke rule 15.
Well when we.
Uh get.
>> all.
The.
Dockets by 10:00, you know.
It's like a.
Race for.
>> 12 because the open meeting
while we have to.
Post everything at 12:00 and so
in in in in 2026 I've had 16
rule 15 items so those uh they
take up a lot of time.
To review to.
Read the order.
Sometimes an order is like one
page of orders are like 3 or 4
pages so I have to read the
current order than.
Review the previous.
>> one that's a duplicate.
Uh so that involves a lot
of time and and for me I have
to abide by the open meeting
law so I call the
council directly or I come down
to the office I review
everything, we talk with the
central staff and we try to
come to a decision to to see if
it is truly a duplicate for and
nine times out of ten we do
that pretty quickly and and
then if it isn't then it will
go on to the agenda and be part
of the meeting at the next
meeting okay.
And I guess with all of your
experience with this rule is
there is there any additional
guidance or anything that you
know in the rule that you.
Think the council.
Could help you out on uh, with
the language in the rule or do
you feel like yeah.
This this well I think.
>> for me for for me and my
staff especially we uh there's
like a race for 12 noon and you
know, I my hope is that the
council has could submit items
sooner than ten minutes before
10:00.
Uh, and we have discussed the
possibility of changing that,
but we you know, that's still
like an idea that we could.
Introduce but the.
The dockets the filing
of dockets actually has
increased.
A great.
Deal in the last few years like
in 2025 there was 2114 dockets
filed.
Where in 19 2019 it was 1700.
So so far in.
2026 we've had uh 1588 dockets
file.
So each meeting that we have
there's a.
Great amount of dockets on the
end.
Those dockets all have to be
reviewed by myself and my staff
.
So that takes uh quite a bit
of time to to get the agenda
created, assign docket numbers
to them.
Uh, if there are all 15 items
then we have to contact the
council or come down and talk
to the counselor.
Uh, so all that takes time and
then hopefully by there was one
instance where we posted the
agenda at like 1201 because we
had to review.
>> certain.
Certain things on that
particular order with the
council.
So you know, we try to do.
>> our due diligence and I try
to process everything as
quickly as I can to meet the
open meeting deadline.
Okay.
>> so you know I'm I'm writing
down make sure everything filed
at least 11 minutes before.
The deadline so you won't blame
me.
Um uh, but uh, so it sounds
like that that that's that's an
issue uh, and the number
of filings makes it, uh,
stressful uh, to get through
everything but in terms of the
rule itself, like when you're
applying rule 15, um, have you
is there some something in
there that you keep going?
Um, I wish they had not done
that or.
Clarified something.
The language for rule 15.
Has pretty much been
consistent.
Sure for the last few years.
So I don't think that's the
issue.
I think the issue is uh to
review the dockets did making
the determination uh, working
with the counselor um I think
another.
Uh aspect of all this is we
have the green sheet so all the
counselors have that
information.
Yeah, the tip of their hands to
before they file any dockets.
They could.
>> review the.
Green sheets.
And say, oh.
There's a similar sounding
docket on the green sheets
already.
So that could be a step that a.
Council could take to avoid any
rule 15.
Issues okay.
Yeah yeah.
Sorry I just um because we did
go back to kind of review the
history of rule 15 before the
um before this hearing I just
wanted to share because it's
interesting also but um, you
know, rule 15 comes up for the
first time in our council rules
and like the 1980s um, and then
um it was expanded slightly in
the early 90s.
Um, we're making an assumption
because there were duplicate
matters in the previous year
that um, you know, the team was
able to go back and find um and
then it remained largely
unchanged until um the past few
terms um when it became
something that was coming up in
conversations with the clerk,
with myself and at our rules
committee meetings, um, to
review.
The rules.
So the current iteration
of rule 15, um, tried to
address some of the concerns
that people had in the um the
end of 2025 at the last rules
meeting.
So at that last rules meeting
people talked about, you know,
how things you know should be
allowed if they do evolve or
subtopics should.
Be evolved.
Um or some topics should be
allowed.
So all of that language was
added in in as a response to
what councilors had indicated
they were hoping to see um
change about that rule from
2025 to 2026.
Um, so I think you can kind
of see us continuing to
struggle about how to implement
that.
Um, because um.
You know it.
You know it we add more
language but it's not
necessarily more clear.
So okay.
Thank you very much.
Thank you chair.
Thank you.
Um, chair recognizes constable
culpeper councilor you have the
floor.
Thank you, MADAM PRESIDENT.
Thank you, mr clerk.
Turn.
Michelle, is there any written
um, objective standard that you
use when you begin to review
two dockets that have been
filed that seem like a similar.
I just.
Uh, whatever whatever is in the
order I read the order I read
the previous order that seems
to be the duplicate and I just
make it that way if I see I
read enough duplicate uh
duplication in the wording and
the intent in the theme of the
order that's how I determine if
it's a duplicate or not.
So the there's no written
objective criteria.
No.
Okay.
I think I would just say beyond
what's in the rules.
So the difference for this year
is that we've um the clerk you
know or the rule has changed to
focus more on whether something
would result in the same kind
of hearing.
Um, so I think that's been the
kind of like written standard
that's changed a little bit.
I think what I'm probably more
concerned about is when there's
a disagreement with the clerk,
then what happens?
Um, and I'm wondering whether
the council should have uh.
Some appeal mechanism whether
to the PRESIDENT Or whether
it's, uh, to the council or
another process where um, the
council that has a disagreement
can appeal to uh or whether
there's there should be a
mechanism for reconsideration
just to give a councilors an
opportunity to state their case
.
Um, in case they disagree with
the final decision.
And uh, and you know, because
it's going to happen there's
going to be situations where
council is going to say um I
don't.
Should we have some kind
of appeal mechanism?
And in that case whether it's
to the PRESIDENT Or whether
it's to the PRESIDENT To bring
to the council itself so the
council rules on it, uh,
because I can't see where there
MAY be situations in the
future, uh, where council will
disagree and get uh again and
not me now.
But I think we should think
about that.
Yeah.
Um, MR. Clerk, just so it
relieves you of always having
to be the final arbiter um, and
to give a counselor, uh, some
option in case you want a
reconsideration or to appeal to
the body.
The reason why I say appeal to
the PRESIDENT Or to the body
because I know you've got that
file and you've got that
deadline.
There wouldn't be time really?
Because I think in some
of these rule 15 matters they
come up so quickly when someone
file something you look at it
say oh my GOD got something
filed already it's 11:45.
Uh so you're trying to.
Review it, come to the
PRESIDENT Then get to the
counselor.
Um and this probably not enough
time and some situations.
So I'm wondering if we should
think about some kind of appeal
procedure where if some of the
disagrees with and not MAY now
.
Well, there have been occasions
when it at one here at one
particular meeting we've had
you know 3 to 15 items and
that's where I my opinion is
that is there's not enough time
for me to review right.
Um those three if I going to
post the agenda at 12 noon and
and then reviewing a rule 15
item is becomes tedious because
you have to read the the
current one you have to read
the uh the previous one you
have to contact the counselor
night then I you know, I've
been upstairs for 20 years and
uh, my experience has been most
the council is that I've dealt
with over the years have been
very agreeable to my, um,
observation and opinion of what
the duplication is.
But there have been occasions
when yes, you you're right a
council that digs in and says
no it's not the same.
It's uh it this the outcome
of this is going to be
different and I don't agree
with you so but I you know
there was I think one occasion
many years ago that that did
happen.
I was there probably the there
was the assistant clerk back
then but I think we allowed
something to go on the agenda
and then whatever the
council wanted to do with that
item then that would be voted
on during the meeting.
So I think that goes back to.
The interplay with rule five.
So I mean I don't want to know
if it my understanding is that,
you know, if that disagreement
does happen you would tend to
allow the filing to move
forward.
Um, and then once it's on the
agenda, if the PRESIDENT Or
another councilor feels that it
is duplicative and should have
been brought 15, they would
make a case under rule five
because rule five is within the
council to rule that out
of order for the same reasons.
Was that something that came to
the full council?
So the way rule five works is
that it's technically the
PRESIDENT Who rules it out
of order.
no, I understand it's subject
to appeal so it would be up for
a vote okay.
Yeah but it has to come to the
PRESIDENT By way of the clerk
bringing it to the PRESIDENT Or
just hit the floor because it
was on the agenda.
Right.
And what I'm saying is maybe
there's something where it
doesn't go to the floor at that
point, uh, without using rule
five whether we could seriously
think about having some kind
of procedure without using rule
five where if someone really
dug in with the clerk it could
then go to the PRESIDENT Or to
the body.
I just think there has to be
some kind of kill mechanism
that allows that council to
take their um argument or their
position uh, that differs with
the clerks to the PRESIDENT Or
the council or something.
I just think that's something
we might want to think about
and um, save you a little
aggravation of questioning and
uh.
Well, usually the uh if that uh
,issue occurs, uh, like
michelle said, you know, we
would allow it to be filed as
part of the agenda and be a
part of the regular meeting and
then at the meeting the
council could get up and say,
well, this is the reason why I
think this is different.
And if his colleagues agree
with that then it could be
passed or referred to
committee.
It could be objected to but
that would be on the floor
of the of the meeting and the
council meeting.
can we put that in writing or
some way formalize that so the
councilors will know uh, that's
uh protocol procedure that
could be.
>> we could create something.
>> yes.
So yeah yeah.
Thank you.
Appreciate how uh and and I can
only talk for about the eight
months that I've been here and
how we've had real good
discussion sometimes sometimes
intense discussion.
Yes.
Uh, with megan and, uh and meg
is not here.
She's, uh, been very helpful.
All of you have been very
helpful.
I think the relationship lends
itself to even if there is a
proper procedure, it will still
be as smooth as things have
been.
And, uh, just appreciate work
with you.
I think part probably what
happens is when you do that
prayer.
I've been doing a lot of press.
>> I know you write.
Pretty good.
.
>> uh well thank you
councilor I think um being here
and uh, for in the clerk's
office for 20 years I have a
like a very unique perspective
on the what the
responsibilities are and the
doing the agendas and uh,
reviewing the dockets but I
think in the with with what you
just said I, I agree with that
because that will release any
tensions between the our
offices you know the 13
council is you know I have 13
bosses so over the years and I
come to this job as an open as
with an open mind every single
day because at the end of the
day it's we like
councilor flynn said you know
we're here to to move the
people's business forward and
and work for the citizens
of boston and for me it doesn't
matter what side of the
political spectrum a
councilor is for me it's
reading the order determining
if it's a duplicate,
determining what the outcome uh
,is the intended outcome
of the order is.
So I've always taken that open
mind approach and will continue
to do that.
And I think that.
Thank you.
>> because you.
>> thank you thank you,
councilor culpepper.
Um, let me see I I know that we
we changed the rules back to
having you mean the sole
arbiter um, when we did the
changes for 20 2627
council session, uh, we
rephrased for flaherty, uh, and
how specify the intent of the
rule and to clarify that you
were, uh, the decision maker
and I did also attempted to
clarify what should and should
not be considered duplicative.
I think also the the decision
that we made as a as a body
when we changed the rules uh,
in in at the beginning of the
year adding the sentence um
prescribing that when rule 15
should not be invoked filings
whose content is on a different
sub target topic or a sub topic
not specified or that that
should not have reasonably been
expected to be covered by the
previous filing or topics on
topic finding some topics for
which content has evolved since
the previous filing because
things change in the world um
so long as the hearing or
debate on the new filing would
not result in the same hearing
or same debate that would
otherwise have been under the
previous filing, I think it's
the sole purpose of um you
know, we should try and keep it
streamlined that we're not
having duplicative hearings.
Um, and to um, you know, so a
hearing order for an update on
a topic matter or a matter that
has already had a hearing is
now no longer considered
duplicate if if the landscape
was changed and there's a
timely reason to have an update
on that topic.
So I think those are good
improvements I think and in
terms of are there other
categories of filings laguna we
have hearing orders.
We have uh resolutions are
there categories where the rule
15 rule should be the 15 should
be applied differently like is
this a different weight to it
if it's a hearing versus a
resolution or whatever?
Uh I've always treated them
both the same in terms
of reading them and determining
if they are duplicative or not.
Uh, if enough words come out
that are the same or similar
and the outcome is the same,
then I would consider that a
duplicate.
But however there could be
instances where there are
situations where it differs a
bit and the outcome is
different.
So if it's an order or if it's
a resolution uh, if it's an
order for one uh issue and the
resolution is on the same issue
then that's those are two
different things one's an auto
one's a resolution.
So I wouldn't rule 15 those.
Okay thank you.
And does the current language
give you enough flaherty and
enough guidance like it's it's
I think it's trying to fight I
think it has improved but
doesn't give you enough enough
flaherty and enough guidance to
to make consistent
determinations.
I know I think what I'm hearing
from you is the biggest factor
is actually the time time I'd
like to review the prop um.
The timing is the issue for
me and you know if I I have to
go through these things quickly
and sometimes doing by doing
that you know, I could MISS The
interpretation by doing it
quickly uh, of a particular
order.
But again I have to follow the
uh, open meeting law and I have
to post everything by 12.
Uh, so when everything gets
posted uh, the the amount
of filings has significantly
increased in the last couple
of years.
So that makes our jobs a little
bit more difficult and tedious
and processing everything.
But I mean we get it done and
it's uh posted at 12 noon.
Uh, like I said, there was a
meeting where I had like 3 or 4
rule 15 possible rule 15 items.
So we have to review each one
and then contact the counselor
for each for each order so that
we try to do that as quickly as
possible.
So you don't have a lot of time
for a turnaround.
Now the other question I had is
and this is generally in the
rules, it used to be that you
had to make your filings on
friday afternoon.
The deadline for filings was
friday afternoon and I would
please.
Change the.
>> what is it?
I don't even remember if we
ever had done that.
Yeah.
>> um but I have suggested that
we do that in a memo that I
sent out last year regarding
filings because a lot of them
like I said, a lot
of counselors file everything
like a quarter or ten on monday
morning.
I did have made the suggestion
that we could councils could
file things starting at 4:00 on
friday.
Because we did that.
>> but during covid yeah we did
that and during covid but if we
if council file things on
friday at least uh we have some
time in.
On monday morning not it
starting at ten but when staff
gets in at 830 they have access
to all the dockets earlier than
at 10:00.
So that would make life.
Easier and make life easier in
terms of rule 15 yes.
Yeah.
>> especially given the
increased volume.
Yeah.
>> okay.
>> um.
>> that's all I know my time
i'm just watching watching it
but um, councilor murphy, would
you.
Yeah I'm going to give you
another um another four
minutes.
Thank you.
Um.
>> thank you to my colleagues
who are here in the state.
I don't think it's productive
if we make accusations and walk
away, especially because these
are filings we're referring to
that were about women's history
and I don't think there ever
can be too many filings where
we're advocating and uplifting
women, especially in 2026.
I do just want to be clear and
then ask for your opinion again
even though I know I got it way
back in FEBRUARY when you made
a call to me.
So I filed a resolution
recognizing MARCH as women's
history month and as the chair
of strong women families in
community.
Um was also tying it into a
celebration we were going to
have and my title was
resolution recognizing MARCH is
women's history month talked
about the contributions women
have made in the city of boston
and meanwhile meaningful
progress has been made blah
blah blah.
We should continue to support
and advocate in my now there be
for it which is what you say
you go to that clause said that
the boston city council hereby
recognize MARCH is women's
history month and honors the
contributions, leadership and
achievements of women in boston
.
The other hearing that was
filed which I was supporting
and signing on and thought both
should be brought forward had a
different focus which I know
when we talked to agreed is why
you kept both on a resolution
recognizing women's history and
reaffirming boston's commitment
to women's rights.
One of the whereas is was
focusing on recent federal
actions and judicial decisions
have weakened protections
related to reproductive health
care, workplace rights, civil
rights enforcement and gender
based discrimination, placing
women's health autonomy and
safety at risk.
These federal rollbacks
disproportionately harm women
of color low income women,
immigrant women, lgbtq plus
women and women with
disabilities compounding
existing inequities within our
communities all agree with that
this moment demands renewed
local leadership to affirm that
women's rights are human rights
and that we as a city will
remain strong to defend the
dignity and equity and that the
boston city council hereby
recognizes marches women's
history month and reaffirms
boston's commitment to
advancing gender equity and
protecting women's rights,
particularly at a time when
federal actions threaten long
standing civil and human rights
protection at the federal level
.
Do you still agree?
And I know I spoke to you,
michelle about this and as
panelists I would like your
opinion.
Now do you agree that those are
two separate resolutions that
should have stayed on the
agenda and voted both on at
that hearing based on their
content after kind of re going
through what would constitute
and it wasn't pulled you kept
it on because you.
Agreed that.
>> do you still well when uh
the the rule 15 issue I
contacted you and uh but you
and you did change the the the
language so for me you know I
reread it afterwards and
determined that it wasn't an
exact duplicate and.
>> just to be clear to the
public to when we change the
language it's before anyone
even sees it and my colleagues
either.
So no one had seen the original
even though the original was
pretty similar and I did think
that that one which was a
strong important resolution and
I was wholeheartedly supporting
that one also that I did make a
few tweaks just to be very
clear, but mine was in no way
referencing federal or other
issues.
>> right.
You know well, you know.
>> just to be safe like you
said working.
Collegiately together to just
make sure that there.
Was no well this is another
example of, you know, uh,
calling the counselor and
describing what the duplication
is and then the counselor
agreed to, you know, uh, edit
her original version.
So once that happens and the
the determination of the right.
But then at the meeting it was
then.
thrown out.
>> yeah.
So and I also remember going to
you michelle it was upsetting
after lots of other things like
blocking um late files which I
do think I need a few more
seconds to address that because
if we do have a deadline
of friday a floor so much does
happen on friday night
saturday, sunday, monday I know
I've spoken at length with you
about that michelle that yes we
should get in the habit
of things that can get in as
early as they can.
We should get them in but if
we're putting a friday deadline
then there will be more late
files because lots of important
things do come up.
Over the weekend that will need
to be on the agenda.
But at that hearing at that
meeting also when we talk about
what are our supports and
abilities in the time there was
the council attorneys were not
in the chamber.
Do you remember that
conversation michelle?
And when I asked for a recess
it was denied.
Then it was pushed and then
colleagues voted to just shoot
it down.
I did say well if we're not
referring to the clerk and
using the rule that says he has
the final power and I didn't
agree with the PRESIDENT, I
didn't have access to what I
read and if you could just
speak through what the
council attorney during the
council meeting support and
role is just so that we're
clear.
Yeah.
what that is for us.
No definitely.
And you know, um I did.
You know.
>> we've talked about this
multiple times and I appreciate
you having brought that to
me and I hope it's noticeable
that we have been absolutely
making sure to have more
coverage in the chamber during
meetings for that exact reason.
Um, so that if councilors have
a question during the meeting
that's on procedure or anything
else, it doesn't necessarily
have to be something that they
have to bring up as a point
of order point of information
or you know.
A question that they raise to
the PRESIDENT Or to the clerk
through a formal channel.
They can come to us on the side
and we can help advise what the
best next steps would be to
address whatever the procedural
issue is.
Thank you.
>> my time is up again but not
thank you.
Thank you, councilor murphy.
Okay sir.
Sorry you he's one.
We're both irish.
>> this is not culinary.
Councilor flynn.
Off you go.
Um, that.
Thank you, MADAM Chair.
Again want to say thank you to
alex and to michelle?
I had an opportunity to.
>> work with both for.
Almost nine years and both.
Outstanding and dedicated city
employees.
What I what I wanted to
highlight I.
Referenced it somewhat.
>> in my comments.
And questioning.
I do think we are able to move
.
Forward on this issue.
In other issues.
I do think it's about
respecting each other.
And listening to each other.
And understanding.
Each other or compromising
especially when you disagree
with the person on policy but
you know the person is right.
In terms of the role.
I think that's.
Where we have to be.
More understanding, more
considerate, more compassionate
is.
Try to be a better colleague.
I think if we're a better
colleague we can make
significant.
Progress in roles and I think
at times.
Without being.
Negative because I because I
don't want to be negative
during this meeting.
But I.
Do think if we work together
and respect each other we can
accomplish a lot.
We can follow the rules.
We can.
Do the people's work.
But even when we disagree and
we respect each other we still
can get.
>> a lot of work done.
And that's really my point.
As it relates to the city
council.
Rules is.
Ensuring that city councils
treat each other cordially,
respectfully.
Understand each other and
sometimes.
including myself withholding.
Comments about.
Colleagues that you do want to
criticize.
But sometimes the criticism
doesn't.
Help the.
Body and it doesn't help the
city.
Thank you, MADAM Chair.
Thank you, councilor flynn.
Um councilor fitzgerald.
Thank you, MADAM Chair.
No, I don't have any further
questions here to learn.
Thank you so much and again
thank you.
Um the staff thank.
You, councilor weber.
Yeah.
>> uh, thank you very much.
Uh, I'm just happy to, uh,
attend and hear what my
colleagues have to say and
thank you for the panel for
their thoughtful answers.
Thanks, chair.
Thank you.
Um, councilor cope everett.
Yeah, I did have an additional
question regarding the
decision.
And so when you make a decision
,mr clare, it is somewhere
where you record that decision
or document that decision just
in case it's something that
comes up in the future.
Well, uh, actually.
>> I.
Do we I created a folder this.
>> year for 2026 because.
>> we've.
Had you know, 16 rule 15 items.
So now we keep I keep uh the
dockets in this folder to to go
back and review them if I need
them in and to.
To document the reason why or
provide an explanation
of writing.
So if you need to go back or if
a councilor had a question
about why uh, you made a
certain decision.
Uh, we keep copies of each
docket and um, they do make
like little notes and saying,
you know why I thought it was a
duplicate and then I just put
them in these by in this folder
and I keep them for reference.
Good.
>> because I think that's
important.
Yeah.
It's like the congressional
record you can go back to the
congressional record and you
look back 50 years of why a
congress person did something
on why.
So I just think it's helpful in
the future, especially when you
have similar dockets that MAY
come up in the future.
You can at least go back and
look at the explanation and the
decision and provide that to
the council of what you did in
the past, the sitting
precedent, MR. Clerk.
Yes we are.
Thank you.
>> thank you.
Um.
>> I think one of the issues
um, that you mentioned is that
if you're faced with um, uh, a
rule 15 docket uh, that you
can't you often approach the
sponsor and you ask them to uh,
give them the opportunity.
The member is offered an
amendment um, uh, an
opportunity to make an
amendment to the docket so that
it doesn't, uh, trigger a rule
15.
Um, and you said we've had 16
rule 15 issues this this year
so far.
So that's two but two a month.
So like averaging two a month.
Um, how many of those were
successfully resolved by, you
know, making an amendment or um
the person withdrew the docket
or.
A majority of them uh, were
they were amended the language
was changed to make it not to
be a duplicate.
Uh, there were a few occasions
where the docket was withdrawn
and uh, the counselor would
contact the the council of the
original the first filing to
become a sponsor to that.
Um and I know I myself was a
little 15 uh, no, I had a
docket and my colleague um had
she she came in five minutes
after I did with the same
pretty much a very similar
docket and we we.
Amended we we amended the
language and we did a joint
filing in that case.
So there are remedies available
to colleagues if we work
collaboratively together to
address this and.
>> all of this happens before
we even.
Publish the uh the agenda.
Yeah.
>> um.
>> I really want to thank you
for your diligence.
I appreciate I have a lot
of concern about the fact that
you are faced with a lot
of dockets sometimes we have a
huge number of dockets that you
have to review and put into um
,the system a bit of between
10 and 12 on a uh a um monday.
Um I think one thing that I
will ask my colleagues to
consider is that if there are
dockets that are ready to go on
thursday or friday that to at
least send them over to your
office so that, uh, your staff
can start uh, reviewing and
entering those dockets 830 on a
on a monday.
Uh, I think if you get all
of our docket set at quarter
of ten on a on a on a monday
and expect everything to be
done for 12 is an unreasonable
expectation.
So I think it's on us as as
counselors uh, and to be
respectful of your, uh, office
to try and, uh if we have
dockets ready to go then let's
let's get them going.
Um, I know we did that during
covid and that was an
extraordinary moment in time.
So um and also just given the
sheer number of dockets like as
you mentioned we are 1500 an
idiot docket so far this year
and only in AUGUST.
Um, we've still got three four
months to go.
Um and we um it's a huge amount
of work for your office and I
appreciate that.
Thank you.
>> council.
Um.
>> last call.
Uh, I just want to thank you
both for your incredible work.
Um, and just to offer you
everyone, uh, closing
statements, if any would like
councilor murphy.
Thank you.
>> I just want to thank you for
being.
Here and talking through and
answering some questions.
I think flaherty is always
important.
i have always been a rule
follower maybe to a fault.
So I do think following the
rules are important but as
important I think is it has to
be consistent and people have
to feel as though the rules are
being applied um.
You know.
>> consistently across the
board despite personalities or
any other thing.
So that is many times the
concerns I've had right if lay
files are blocked and said
because of a concern of open
meeting law but then all of a
sudden if it's not a certain
person following them they're
not block.
So those concerns I guess no
longer exist.
So I do think.
We do.
Need to work together.
But what you said proves that
we already are because most of.
These real 15 cases that you
see are fixed before they ever
make it to the agenda.
The call is what fixes it
right?
And it's what I.
Thought fixed mine in.
My case in many times I've
signed on with other colleagues
also like hey we're both filing
something, let's work together.
All of that is happening behind
the scenes so that number is
high and thank you for the work
you.
Do in your office um to catch
it.
But I do want to be clear to
the public in the body that
nine times if not more out
of ten we are addressing it and
fixing it before it ever comes
to the floor.
so we are working together to
make sure that we're not just
bickering and we're not.
And for me at least I can say
I'm not filing things just to
file them to me they're very
important issues that need to
be addressed and so looking
forward to hopefully continuing
to get consistency across the
board.
And thank you for being
available to make some
clarifications today.
Thank you.
Councilor flynn.
>> thank you, MADAM Chair.
>> thank you to the.
City clerk.
Thank you to the.
City council staff director for
the important.
Work you were doing.
For the city council and for
the residents of boston.
Let's continue as a body to
work together, respect each
other, communicate effectively
with each other.
And do the work of.
>> the people.
That's critical, especially
during these challenging times
.
We all know that boston works.
Best when we when we work
together.
Thank you, MADAM Chair.
Thank you, councilor flynn.
Councilor fitzgerald closing
remarks.
Thank you.
Good.
>> um, councilor weber closing
remarks.
Sure.
>> uh, thank you very much.
Yeah.
I mean I feel like, uh you know
,again, thank you to the
panelists and uh, I think
issues around rule 15 and
issues that we talked about
today I think it's more
indicative of issues on the
council and with with
councilors, uh, effectively
working together.
So I agree with my colleagues
there, uh, that you know so I'd
say it's more of this
highlights more of that issue
than any issues um, with the
clerk's office or legal
councilor or even the language
of the rule.
So again, I hope we use this as
uh as a way to work better
together.
So thank you to I've just echo
councilor flynn sentiment.
Thank you.
Um.
Councilor culpeper.
Sounds like that organization
went better together.
Yeah.
Uh, just a couple.
Of comments and and you MAY
want to respond and MAY not we
try and have all of our
filings, uh, prepared friday so
I can review them with the
start friday, but we MAY not
file them friday.
And my question is would you
rather us file on friday and if
monday morning I'll review them
again monday morning and if we
have amendments would you
prefer that we pull that and
file the and how the change or
just leave it there and amend
it.
What's your preference.
Uh well you know if you file
something on friday then you
want.
To change it on monday that
that creates more work too for
us.
But uh I mean it can be done.
So would you rather we just
wait and file.
Until you have the final
version?
Yeah.
>> and then, um, you can we can
review it and then hopefully
it'll be fine and okay if you
want to substitute of course
you can do that during the
meeting as well.
Right and and where we can
we'll try and get them into you
by friday because usually
they're ready on friday.
But you know that weekend you
know going to the weekend
thinking about that file and
waking up monday morning that's
fine thank you thank you MR.
Thank you council.
Thank you, councilor culpepper
.
Um I want to thank you both for
being here today.
I think this has been a very
valuable and informative
conversation.
I want to thank my colleagues
for participating in the
conversation.
Um, our goal as a as a body and
as as a um staff and
council and your trucks office
is to have an efficient,
well-run council and I
appreciate all the great work
you do.
Um, I think we can make some
tweaks and and encourage people
to file if there's something
ready to go when it's in good
shape and it doesn't need
changing, send it to your
office in a timely way so that
it doesn't get into the the the
bottom the bottleneck on on
monday mornings and uh I just
want to encourage thank you for
your professionalism and your
daily commitment to helping us,
uh, do our work for the people
of boston every day.
And thanks to my colleagues.
Thank you.
>> he might not realize it, but
I take down notes of your
prayers so that I take them
with me when I leave here this
council.
So when I look at some of my
files I've got certain portions
of your prayers in those files.
So thank you for those prayers
.
That's the other role of the
clerk is to stand in for clergy
when we don't have clergy and
to set.
>> the prayers to.
>> set us to set a peaceful.
And collaborative tone at the
beginning of a meeting.
So I thank you for that.
MADAM PRESIDENT.
MADAM PRESIDENT, if he uses
that in his sermons is that
plagiarism?
Yes.
>> I leave this up to that.
Is that where you get your
inspiration?
Credit?
>> yeah.
>> oh come on.
I give him credit I said
before.
Thank you everyone.
This hearing on docket.
1475 is adjourned.