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was a nice dinner like that.
>> Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. It

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is now 5:30 and I will call this regular
work session of the Burnsville City

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Council to order. Um,
>> it's good to see members of our

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community present in the council
chambers. Welcome everyone.

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Members of our community and the public
are welcome to attend uh also by

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watching us on Burnsville mn.gov/meings
or Comcast channel 16 or 859.

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The public can also participate through
Zoom by joining us at zoom. us/join.

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More information is available on our
meetings web page and in the council

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agenda packet. This is a work session
and we go directly to the items that are

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on the agenda. So the first item on the
agenda is finding um study that uh was

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done and Garrett Beck, you're on deck.

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» Thank you, Madam Mayor. I like the way
that rhymes. Uh good evening, mayor and

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council. Uh this evening we are going to
talk about a wayfinding study that our

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team has been up to over the last year
or so. Um, you may recall back in June

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of 2024, uh, the team presented a parks
plan, um, which really inventoried and

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assessed all of our, um, our park
amenities within the system. And as part

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of that process of the presentation, uh,
we indicated that evening that we were

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going to also be completing over a
period of time a park wayfinding study

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as well, which would be part of the
park's plan in the future.

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So just a quick overview. Um a
wayfinding study essentially establishes

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a comprehensive citywide framework for
how visitors can navigate our park

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system. Uh this particular study
assessed all 76 of our parks. Uh we used

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a variety of uh ways to engage our
community uh through different events

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and platforms. And uh the final product
[clears throat] will be aligned with

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Burns sign standards.
So the goal of the project uh was

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strictly related to the community
benefits as well. So having a a

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comprehensive wayfinding plan will
improve orientation and navigation for

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our guests. It promotes accessibility.
It increases the awareness of the

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amenities within the park system. Uh it
helps us to effectively communicate to

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the public. Uh and it supports
multimodal access.

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So, the baseline assessment done by a
consultant uh looked at 473 signs in our

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76 parks and they determined uh based on
their standards that 23 of our parks

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currently meet uh appropriate
wayfinding. Uh they indicated that 149

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new signs um should be considered and
I'll talk about uh those signs later on

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in the presentation here. They also
propo proposed that we remove 44 signs

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um with uh 89 signs currently being in
condition one and two. And I'll just

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share right now uh part of our uh
process over the last few years and into

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the to the near future is that we're
working to [snorts]

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um replace condition one and two
amenities. Uh the reason why there's

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still 89 out there for signs is that we
wanted to complete the wayfinding study

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first. We didn't want to be replacing uh
signs that are condition one and two

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only to determine that they might be one
of the 44. So, uh now that this study is

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complete, we'll work on um taking care
of those signs as well.

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I talked about community engagement. Um
we did eight on-site park intercepts.

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So, that's really just um the team going
out to a park, setting up a table and a

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tent, uh sharing uh what's going on for
the project, giving people opportunities

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to communicate in person [cough] about
um their ideas and and concerns, and

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also an opportunity to visit a website
and provide more information in a future

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time if they wanted. Um, we had online
uh mapping opportunities, so someone

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could go on to their park and put a a
pinpoint on there and then put a note

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about um thoughts about wayfinding in a
particular area. And then they also uh

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were present at six of our city events.

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So [clears throat] from a community
engagement uh feedback process uh we

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heard that um there was an opportunity
to uh or I shared that there was an

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online opportunity to request signs in
the park system. So people were doing

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that. Um they felt overall there was a
need for clearer more consistent signage

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and maps in the park. um an opportunity
to expand signage for trails and access

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points and then uh directional signage
to specific amenities once you in the

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park.

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So, a little bit about the signage
family and uh the different types of

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signs you may see in a park system. So,
amenity signs basically distinguish um

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specific features in a park. So, um, if
it's a playground, there's usually a

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name of a playground and whatnot. Um,
the arrival signs are your park

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entrances. Um, it may be an amenity. For
example, in Civic Center Park, we have a

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skate park, right? So, um, there is a an
arrival sign for coming to Civic Center

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Park, but then when you get to Lion
Skate Park, then there's a different

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amenity sign there. Uh it also includes
rules and safety and guidelines for uh

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the park system.
A destination sign highlights a key

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destination within the park. Uh so for
example um there if you're out at Lac

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Leavon uh there are six ball fields out
there and so a destination sign may be

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uh you're at field A or field B or field
E or whatnot. Directional signs provide

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clear guidance at decision points. So if
you're at a uh a road fork or a trail

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fork, it helps you to to determine what
direction you want to go based on what

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your goal is. And then there are also
actual trail and path signs that help

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you to know uh where you're at on the on
the trail and the path and within the

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park.

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So [snorts] insights from this um
directional signs that guide visitors

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are severely under represented at only
4.2% of all of our signs. And so what

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that means at the end of the day is that
um people uh should in [clears throat]

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general have uh are able to find our
parks, but once they get inside of our

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larger parks, uh they may have some
difficulty navigating through the park

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system at that point.
So, I talked about um the recommendation

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for signs that um need to be added to
the park system based on uh the proposal

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and the and the plan. And this is just
an example of what um obviously this is

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not what one of our signs look like at
this time, but it gives you an idea that

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uh if you were at this particular park,
uh there's a inside the parking lot,

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there's an arrow there that says you are
here. Um, and then a person can then see

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based on where they're at when they're
looking at the sign, if they want to get

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over to the fitness, uh, area, uh, what
direction they would need to go to, uh,

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and whatnot. So, if you think about our
park system specifically, we have some

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very large community parks. Um, if you
think about Neil Park, for example, uh,

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there are actually five different major
parking lots that you could, uh, go to

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park to, uh, within Neil Park. So, uh,
an example of where a sign like this

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would be appropriate is that, uh, at
each of those five locations where

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people are coming and parking and
getting out and getting ready to use the

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park. There may also be other situations
where there's major forks uh, within a

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larger park uh, where a sign like this
may be appropriate as well.

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So again, the recommendation uh from the
study is to replace or remove 44 of the

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signs that provide minimal effectiveness
to install 149 uh new signs of which a

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lot of them will look like the the sign
that [clears throat] I just mentioned

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where it's an overview of the park helps
people to figure out what amenities are

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in the park, how are they going to
travel to get to those. Um

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[clears throat] and then thoughtful use
of the city's messaging and consistent

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standards.

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The implementation process for this
would be to finalize our sign standards.

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Our team will work uh we'll look at the
needs of those signs that need to be

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added, work with our communications
department, develop the standards, what

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the sign will look like, make sure it's
consistent with um our sign process.

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We'll then develop a cost estimate and
identify a funding plan to pay for those

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signs and then prioritize by category.
In general, uh we will look at our

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larger parks that have more visitors to
try to make sure we get those up to

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speed uh as quickly as possible and then
work our way through uh the neighborhood

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and and many parks and um finish it off
that way.

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So,
I will pause and see if there are any

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questions or comments.
>> Comments for staff,

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questions, comments.
>> I think it's a good idea of the signage

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that's uh not only for the current
residents, but we we have a lot of new

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residents in this city that are just
starting to learn our parks. So, that's

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going to really help them a lot.
>> Agreed. I think this is a a nice thing

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to have. Um,
>> okay. Any other comments? Yep.

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» I I have noticed visiting other cities
that they have some pretty good uh park

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way finding signs and I have felt a
little jealous that we don't um just

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never was a big huge priority until we
did this project or staff did this

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project and it kind of shined a
spotlight on that. Well, when we did the

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parks analysis,
>> that really told a big story about the

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inventory that we have and the analysis
that was done that identified what we

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needed to invest in.
>> Yeah. I think for the most part for the

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parks that we have, it's a visual thing,
right? You see where stuff is at, but

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sometimes there's parks, you can't see
all of the amenities that are there. But

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um I think there's a lot of good reasons
to do this, so I support it.

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» Yeah. [clears throat]
>> My

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» Yeah.
>> My only thought is if we and I know

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we're not to the design phase yet, but
um

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restrict or reduce the amount of
branding. I mean, we obviously can do

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colors, but if we do logos and stuff, so
that way if there is an overhaul, then

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we're not having to go back through and
replace allund and so of those.

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So it it's been mentioned and and I
agree we have a very diverse population

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here in Burnsville. So in going through
and this is page 13 of the plan

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the symbols need to be ident um defined
so people know what those symbols are uh

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because it might be interpreted one way
for somebody and a different way for

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someone else. So what does the symbols
mean?

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Because people can look at the symbols
and some will will understand but some

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would not.
So that's good. The other thing is that

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I [snorts] just love going through the
whole

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plan. 235 pages by the way.

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and you had all of the trails marked.

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I liked that. However,
uh down at uh the river park, the

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riverfront park,
the trail that's missing is around

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[clears throat] Black Dog Lake.
If you can take a look at that.

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» Take a look at that. Yep.
>> Yeah. Well, I know that e Excel built

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that, but it's still within the trail
system because when we come around, you

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can do that.
The other thing that I So, when we're

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when we do the trail map,
I think it'll be something that we need

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to take a look at, but I was
interesting. So, Keller, I did not

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realize that the trail at Keller Lake
goes all the way and winds into Apple

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Valley and circles back into Burnsville.

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So, I was thinking that maybe on my
walks I was into Apple Valley did not

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know.
So, is there going to be signs that say

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you are leaving Burnsville? [laughter]

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Because the same thing is in Alamagnet.
Because when you take that trail in

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Alamagnet, when I looked at it, it goes
right out into Apple Valley and then

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curves all the way back. So,
but I don't I I didn't know that I was

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leaving Burnsville and was in Apple
Valley.

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» Thank you. just just some thoughts in
when you do the trail. Um because this

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is I love the fact that you also
identified the trail from uh Fiser

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Park going all the way down to Alam uh
to Lac Laban

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that whole trail. I don't think a lot of
people realize that that goes all the

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way down to Llaban Park. Do you,
>> Madam Mayor? I would agree. That's why.

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Yes. I I think the signs at the
different entrances really help those

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overhead ones really help people to see
all the different things. And that's a

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great example of a park where you you
can may not know that those amenities

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are even there if depending on why
you're visiting the park in the first

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place. And
>> the only way I found it was during co

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» just keep walking. [laughter]

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Just keep walking.
And um

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so th those were just I was thinking
people should know about this because

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it's a really nice trail and it goes
down into Laman and winds around and

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yeah so yeah then
>> well there in addition to enhancing

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there's maintenance and replacement like
the sign at the the dog park bulletin

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sign is is an absolute embarrassment.
and it's in such horrific shape that it

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really reflects poorly on the city. So,
I think some of those things have to be

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addressed sooner than later. I mean, to
me, they're they should be addressed on

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the front end of this project because
they they that's that is a I don't

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believe how bad that is.
>> Well, they're going to get to all of

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that because that's one and two in in
the plan.

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» Yeah. And and then page 34, you have all
of the different family of signs for the

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different
>> and we have some really great signs that

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are really nice. And then we have that
one which is

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» that's the other end of the spectrum.
>> Yeah,

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00:16:08,639 --> 00:16:16,320
» the route signs are really nice. I think
that'll give the system of what you're

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00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:21,279
looking [clears throat] to to put in
place. And then the examples that you

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00:16:18,399 --> 00:16:25,040
have on page 35 is really gives people
an an understanding of what it it's

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00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:31,519
going to look like. [clears throat]
Yeah. So I I like all these things

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00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:36,800
because it really helps us to understand
when we're going to invest in these

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signs and what it's going to cost.
Yeah. But I can't wait now for to see

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the
the trail plan

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00:16:44,126 --> 00:16:46,146
[snorts]

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00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:50,560
because it's this is really good.
>> Good.

199
00:16:50,079 --> 00:16:55,279
» Good to
>> But it really really lets people know

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00:16:52,639 --> 00:16:58,639
where where things are. But I don't know
the the folks who live over in

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00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:02,639
Alamagnet. Did you know that you were
leaving Burnsville and you were in Apple

202
00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:06,160
Valley?
we're friends with their

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00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:12,559
» there probably those of us who don't
walk that those trails all the time you

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00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:20,240
know cuz I walk I try to walk all over
the city so it's not but I looked at it

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00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:25,439
and I said wow that's a lot
so

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00:17:23,199 --> 00:17:30,120
we have we share quite a bit with Apple
Valley Keller Alamagnet

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00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:39,600
yeah So very good. Anything else? But I
think the Terrell system plan, I know

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we've been working on it because we also
work with

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Dakota County on the Marian

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talk about the trail sidewalk and all
>> it's going on.

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[snorts]
>> It'll come. Yeah,

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00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:03,840
» we I like all the plans you're putting
in place.

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00:18:01,679 --> 00:18:09,840
Just curious.
Okay. Thank you. Anything else?

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Those are just my thoughts.
>> All right. Thank you, Madam Mayor and

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00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:19,679
council members. Um
I am also uh up on this next one, but

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» Oh, that's right. I'm sorry.
>> Yeah. No, that's all right.

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00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:23,280
» This is his night.
>> Yeah.

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00:18:22,559 --> 00:18:28,640
» Yeah.
>> And and so item, too, because you've got

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00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:34,880
all of it. Okay. Yeah. This is the Rose
Park land use and picobal project. And

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Garrett, you're up and so is our deputy
city manager in community development

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director. It's such a long title,
>> Jeff Thompson.

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» Thank you, Madam Mayor. Um, just so
people don't get sick of hearing me

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talk, Jeff's going to help me out along
the way here. So, um, uh, this evening

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[snorts] we're going to take a look at
the Rose Park land use and pickle ball

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00:18:55,280 --> 00:19:04,480
project update. Um so you may recall
back on October 14th of 2025 at a city

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00:19:01,919 --> 00:19:08,240
council work session um council had the
opportunity to review a pickle ball

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feasibility study uh that informed the
possibility of a pickle ball project at

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00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:19,760
uh Alamagnet Cliffn Hollows and Rose
Parks.

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00:19:17,919 --> 00:19:24,799
So after a review of the schematic
designs and hearing about the community

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00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:30,320
engagement results, council shared a
consensus that evening for a preferred

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00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:37,400
location in the order of Rose Park
first, followed closely by Clifton Park

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and then Alamagnet and Hollows.

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00:19:37,679 --> 00:19:44,400
So council direction that evening was
that staff continue the development of a

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00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:49,600
pickleball facility at Rose Park by
continuing negotiations for a land use

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00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:55,720
agreement for Rose Park with the owners
of that property which is RTX/Collins

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00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,720
Aerospace.

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00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:02,880
So, um, mayor and council, you'll
recall, um, as part of the feasibility

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00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:06,080
study as we were exploring, um, the
opportunities for the pickle ball

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00:20:03,919 --> 00:20:10,640
project across the entire park system,
um, one park that was identified, um, as

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00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:14,720
a potential is Rose Park, um, which we
talked about in October. And as part of

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00:20:12,559 --> 00:20:18,320
the feasibility, we um wanted to explore
the park, but recognizing that there's a

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00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:21,360
unique agreement on that park and that
we don't own it, but there's a long-term

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00:20:19,679 --> 00:20:26,880
lease uh that the city has had for the
for the use of that land um for a park.

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00:20:25,039 --> 00:20:30,400
So, we had engaged Collins um in
conversations as part of the feasibility

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00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:32,799
study uh just to to see if it was
something that we could continue to

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00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:38,080
explore and bring forward for the
council for consideration.

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00:20:35,039 --> 00:20:42,159
um at that October work session. Um this
is information that we we talked about

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00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:46,559
which is um RTX and Collins were were
open to a potential uh partnership for

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00:20:45,039 --> 00:20:52,400
potentially constructing the pickleball
courts um on that land. Um and we had

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00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:57,120
had very early and high level
conversations with them about what a

251
00:20:54,159 --> 00:21:02,159
land agreement for that uh could look
like and they had kind of framed three

252
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:06,960
larger um options for the city for
potential future consideration. Um at

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00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:10,640
the time that was um the three options
they had uh framed for us were extending

254
00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:14,480
the existing ground lease for an
additional 20 years uh to allow for the

255
00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:18,000
construction of the of the of the
project. The other two options were

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00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:22,559
extending the lease for a shorter
duration and that's like a a three-year

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00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:27,520
duration um with the with the option for
the city to purchase the land after that

258
00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:34,480
three-year lease and then um an option
to sell the land uh to the city um uh uh

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00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:38,880
for the project to proceed. So those
were the again we didn't have in October

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00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:42,000
any specific terms for um for response
or or information to to be able to

261
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:45,919
respond to it but those were the three
high level options that had been

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00:21:43,120 --> 00:21:49,919
provided and there was a a question that
they had asked of us which was whether

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00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:55,600
the the property could be considered
taxexempt um for uh property tax

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00:21:52,960 --> 00:22:00,320
purposes uh because uh it is currently
and has been previously

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00:21:58,159 --> 00:22:04,159
um classified by the county assessor as
industrial land vacant industrial land

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00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:08,720
and taxed at the full market value of of
of industrial land.

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00:22:07,120 --> 00:22:11,280
So those were the that was the
information. Again, this isn't new. This

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00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:16,000
is what we had talked about at that
October work session before we get in.

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00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:19,840
And then as Garrett said, the direction
from the council was for us to continue

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00:22:17,679 --> 00:22:24,559
those ne negotiations with the landowner
RTX Collins and bring back specific

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00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:27,600
terms for the council's consideration.
Um we'll talk about that, but before I

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00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:30,880
just want to uh just do a little
reminder of uh the existing arrangement.

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00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:36,000
So as I said, the land is owned by
Collins RTX. Um, it is, um, the original

274
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:40,159
lease agreement for the park was was
developed in or was signed by the city

275
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:44,559
in the parties in 1992 when the park was
developed. It was a dollar lease for a

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00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:48,240
20-year period and allowed us to build
the park amenities that are largely out

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00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:54,159
there today, the the ball field um, and
the the soccer field. Um, and as I said,

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00:22:51,919 --> 00:22:57,840
that was a 20 year originally a 20-year
lease. Um, there have been two

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00:22:55,520 --> 00:23:02,240
amendments since that original lease. a
lease in a first amendment in 2010 and

280
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:03,679
then a second amendment in April of
2019.

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00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:08,960
» Yes.
>> So the you know the the gerine um points

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00:23:07,120 --> 00:23:13,919
of the existing ground lease term is the
the current lease uh runs through

283
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:18,080
September of 2032 for the portion of the
park that is the property that is used

284
00:23:15,919 --> 00:23:22,320
as a park. There's a portion of the
property that is uh that Collins

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00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:26,960
constructed an employee parking lot on
and that area is not included in in the

286
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:32,720
lease agreement
because the original 20-year lease term

287
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:37,440
has has um has expired. Um there is no
long um they are no longer responsible

288
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:40,880
for compensating the city if if they
terminate it. But either party does have

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00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:45,679
the ability to terminate that existing
lease agreement with a 180day or or

290
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:49,600
six-month notice to to either party. But
as I said, because that original buyout

291
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:53,760
clause from the original lease has is
has expired, Akones wouldn't be

292
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:56,880
responsible for for paying us should
they terminate that lease um early um

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00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:59,880
that's allowed under the lease
agreement.

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00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:05,520
So, uh first I just talk a little bit
about the property tax exemption

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00:24:03,039 --> 00:24:08,640
conversations that we've had. um for
information, [clears throat] the the

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00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:12,720
Dakota County Assessor is ultimately the
agency that determines and sets um the

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00:24:11,039 --> 00:24:18,159
property tax classification and the
property tax valuation for all

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00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:22,080
properties in Burnsville. Um and so we
facilitated convers since the October

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00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:27,039
work session, we facilitated
conversations with the Dakota County

300
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:31,120
Assessor. Um and initially the those
conversations um the assessor indicated

301
00:24:29,279 --> 00:24:35,360
that based on their review of this the
statute and the guidance provided by the

302
00:24:33,039 --> 00:24:40,320
department of revenue the the unique
agreement we have uh did not qualify the

303
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:44,159
property for tax exemption which is why
that determination had been made over

304
00:24:41,919 --> 00:24:47,760
the years to tax it as the industrial
land value.

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00:24:45,919 --> 00:24:52,000
We did then uh just reach out to the
department of revenue um the state

306
00:24:49,360 --> 00:24:56,640
agency that oversees it and um
ultimately they provided some guidance

307
00:24:54,080 --> 00:25:01,679
documents to the city for a um
comparable situation in a different

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00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:06,159
county in Minnesota which said that a an
agreement such as a ground lease for a

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00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:12,799
for potentially exempt use could be
classified um as taxexempt.

310
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:16,400
So, the city provided that um guidance
document provided from the department of

311
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:22,159
revenue as well as the copy of our lease
agreement uh for the property to uh the

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00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:26,400
Dakota County Assessor. Um they reviewed
all of that and ultimately um made a

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00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:31,840
decision that [clears throat] the city's
leased portion of the property um will

314
00:25:29,039 --> 00:25:37,200
be exempt from properties taxes starting
in uh 2027. So, as you know, the the the

315
00:25:35,360 --> 00:25:41,120
property tax system works that
essentially the the values that are the

316
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:44,799
the classification values that
ultimately determine tax year tax uh

317
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:50,320
your property taxes are determined the
year ahead of the payable tax year. And

318
00:25:47,120 --> 00:25:55,600
so, um ultimately it becomes effective
uh next year in 2027.

319
00:25:53,039 --> 00:25:59,360
» Jeff, will it spring back when the lease
expires then?

320
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:03,679
» Um mayor and council, yeah, I mean
ultimately yes. Um, as you can, as it

321
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:07,679
says on the slide, right, any future
change, what the the determination that

322
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:11,679
the county assessor made says that if
there are any changes to the property

323
00:26:09,279 --> 00:26:15,520
use, the improve the improvements or the
lease, they they would re re-review that

324
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:18,480
and ultimately determine if it still
qualifies for exemption. We would assume

325
00:26:17,279 --> 00:26:22,000
if there's not that ground lease in
place that qualifies for exemption, um,

326
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:26,320
that prop that property tax exemption
would likely go away.

327
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:30,080
Um and the only other caveat is that
exemption is only pertains to the

328
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:33,600
portion of the property that we lease
for the exempt use for the park. So the

329
00:26:32,159 --> 00:26:38,240
area of the park, the area of the
property that's used for employee

330
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:41,880
parking uh would remain taxable uh for
property tax purposes.

331
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:49,679
Just provide a little bit of information
what that means. Um, so in 2026,

332
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:55,200
uh, the total property val the total
pro, uh, property taxes on the property

333
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:58,799
for the full valuation is just over
$104,000.

334
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:04,080
And that's based on the industrial land
value, the taxable market value at full

335
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:09,919
industrial land at uh, uh, over $3.5
million. The 20 26 amount for the city's

336
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:12,919
portion of those property taxes is
$22,488.

337
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:21,520
Since the exemption applies in 2027, um
we don't yet know what those 2027

338
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:24,720
property taxes will be. Uh because um
all the taxing agencies are currently

339
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:29,120
working through their budgets and levy
process. Um but um as part of the normal

340
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:33,360
taxation process, the Dakota County
Assessor has released the proposed

341
00:27:31,120 --> 00:27:36,720
taxable market value for the property
reflecting those changes of the

342
00:27:34,799 --> 00:27:42,159
exemption for the city's uh ground lease
area and reduced the the overall taxable

343
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:45,520
market value of the property from to to
$558,000.

344
00:27:43,679 --> 00:27:50,320
So there's a year gap in there, but you
can see the overall reduction is about

345
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:54,480
$3 million in in total property tax um
taxable market value for for property

346
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:58,960
tax purposes. And again, that's
independent of the city's lease um

347
00:27:56,159 --> 00:28:02,559
negotiations with RTX Collins. This is
um a determination the county assessor

348
00:28:00,399 --> 00:28:07,960
has already made and implemented u based
on that department of revenue guidance

349
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,960
and the city's existing lease.

350
00:28:09,279 --> 00:28:15,919
So, um the original um options that
Collins had uh we had talked to Collins

351
00:28:14,159 --> 00:28:20,240
about ultimately they gave us a specific
lease term proposal for one of those

352
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:23,279
options. Um and so I just want to walk
through what the the framework of those

353
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:28,320
terms are.
Um that would be a 20-year lease

354
00:28:25,679 --> 00:28:34,559
extension uh to the existing lease um
with an annual initial annual rent of

355
00:28:30,559 --> 00:28:40,159
$90,000 per year with a um annual rent
escalation for essentially inflationary

356
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:43,840
purposes of 2 and a.5% annually. So that
the 90,000 would be uh at the first year

357
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:48,640
and then it would uh increase 2 and a
half% uh each year for the 20-year

358
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:52,880
terms.
the the lease extension would be

359
00:28:50,159 --> 00:28:58,159
premised on the the land being prop the
land that the city is owning being

360
00:28:54,799 --> 00:29:01,919
property tax exempt. Um and should uh
that if should the county assessor make

361
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:06,240
a different determination uh the annual
rent would be adjusted under the lease

362
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:10,000
terms to fully account for um the city's
portion of the property tax uh

363
00:29:07,919 --> 00:29:13,919
liability. Now, we don't expect that,
right? Because of the guidance we've

364
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:17,360
received um um and the ground lease
qualifying for exemption, we wouldn't

365
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:21,520
expect that. But it were it was terms
that um that Collins and RTX provided in

366
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:25,840
the lease agreement. Uh should that
change based on the the the the clause

367
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:28,480
that the county assessor said which said
they could re-review it if there is a

368
00:29:27,919 --> 00:29:31,360
change.
>> So toward the end of this lease it'd be

369
00:29:29,919 --> 00:29:33,360
about 140,000 a year.
>> Yeah.

370
00:29:33,105 --> 00:29:35,120
[snorts]
>> Two and a half%

371
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:40,360
» 22.
>> Correct. Correct.

372
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,360
» Thank you.

373
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:48,960
The um we also had a lot of
conversations um with RTX and Collins

374
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:52,720
about the termination clause um
recognizing that um the city is making a

375
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:57,039
substantial investment in this property
and under a lease term for building an

376
00:29:55,039 --> 00:30:02,159
asset on land we don't own um there is a
risk to the city um that if there's a if

377
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:06,880
RTX Collins has the ability to terminate
the lease um it would result in the city

378
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:12,399
having built improvements um that would
no longer be available to us. Um the

379
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:17,600
terms that they have given us is that um
very similar terms to the original 1992

380
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:22,000
lease which is essentially um either
party may terminate uh the lease with a

381
00:30:20,159 --> 00:30:25,360
12-month notice within that 20-year
term. Uh either party could terminate

382
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:30,080
the lease with a 12-month written
notice. Um if RTX terminates it, there

383
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:34,399
would be a simple depreciation clause
which essentially says uh we were using

384
00:30:32,559 --> 00:30:38,399
for planning purposes a million dollars
of planned capital investment the city

385
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:42,080
would make that that amount of of total
project investment would be depreciated

386
00:30:40,159 --> 00:30:47,360
over the 20-year term of the lease such
that the the termination payment would

387
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:51,520
would decline by uh $50,000 per year.
So, in, you know, in year one, we'd get

388
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:57,120
900. At the end of year one, we'd get
$950,000, and by year 19, uh, we would

389
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:59,760
only receive $50,000 in payment. And
then at the end of the lease, there

390
00:30:58,159 --> 00:31:03,679
would be no compensation for the city's
capital investment.

391
00:31:02,799 --> 00:31:06,159
» Question.
>> Yes.

392
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:09,640
» What's our normal depreciation of an
asset like that?

393
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:16,399
we have to basically go in and
completely overhaul it because right I

394
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:20,960
mean is 20 years the time where we would
have to go in and spend a lot of money

395
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:25,840
to rehab the whole facility to make it
you know maintain it well

396
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:30,000
» council member Keely yes um with tennis
courts pickleball courts there is uh

397
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:36,640
ongoing maintenance about every 5 years
that you want to do for uh crack sealing

398
00:31:32,799 --> 00:31:41,440
and resurfacing but um the general life
expectancy of a cord is right around

399
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:44,880
that 20 year period. Fencing can last a
little bit longer. Um, so can lighting

400
00:31:43,919 --> 00:31:46,880
systems, but
>> sure,

401
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:49,679
» if you're looking at the the actual
court process itself, that's that's the

402
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:54,000
general time period.
>> This is a logical depreciation [snorts]

403
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:59,519
schedule at 50,000 a year over the 20
years. So, if they were to cancel after

404
00:31:56,559 --> 00:32:05,039
10 years, we would get half a million,
right? But they would also have um the

405
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:08,640
costs that we would normally bear if we
kept it. They would have the costs of

406
00:32:06,799 --> 00:32:13,519
maintaining it, eventually replacing it.
So, it's just how assets work with end

407
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:17,600
of depreciation.
>> Okay. Cara,

408
00:32:15,679 --> 00:32:21,279
» would they maintain the pickle ball
court? I mean, I would assume if they

409
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:25,440
take the lease back, it would be to take
the pickle ball court out

410
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:31,519
» to do something that they wish to do
like a building or a parking lot or or

411
00:32:28,159 --> 00:32:37,120
something like that. Um,
>> so there is depreciation of the built

412
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:44,960
asset. Um, but what we don't get back is
the money that we put into it to

413
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:49,919
get everything prepared and the water
management and all that kind of stuff.

414
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:54,640
Um, which you put that money into it and
then after 20 years if you need to redo

415
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:59,600
the court, you're redoing the court, but
you're not having to redo the site prep

416
00:32:57,519 --> 00:33:03,840
and the
um like water management, that type of

417
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:09,279
thing.
So, do

418
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:12,960
we have a breakdown of what that is?
Like how much are we putting into it

419
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:21,039
that would not be
the actual pickle ball court? [snorts]

420
00:33:17,039 --> 00:33:26,240
Uh there there just one comment. So, we
asked when we were talking to to Collins

421
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:30,320
Aerospace RTX about this, it was a
depreciation of all of the investment

422
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:33,679
that went into it, not just the specific
amount that went into the pickle ball

423
00:33:31,679 --> 00:33:38,399
court. So there's some
>> parking lot spaces, there's lights,

424
00:33:35,679 --> 00:33:43,039
there's the court, there's the um the
wetland management type things. It it

425
00:33:40,799 --> 00:33:48,559
was the total package. So it'd be
depreciation of if as council member

426
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:52,159
Keley mentioned if we let's say it for
round numbers it was a million dollar if

427
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:56,399
after 10 years they would give us
$500,000 back because that was the cost

428
00:33:54,480 --> 00:34:01,840
of the total project.
>> Okay, I get that. But okay, so say say

429
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:05,279
we have to do redo redo the pickle ball
court 20 years and they're like yes we

430
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:11,040
would like to give you a lease again,
right? Um do we have to pay for site

431
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:14,480
prep all over again and water management
and those costs again?

432
00:34:13,119 --> 00:34:18,240
» We would not at that point.
>> Okay. So it would just be rebuilding the

433
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:25,679
pickle ball court. So the difference I'm
asking is how much of what we have to do

434
00:34:22,159 --> 00:34:30,639
is prepping the site and how much is
pickle ball court because even with the

435
00:34:28,639 --> 00:34:36,560
depreciation say they boot us off in 10
years and we get the depreciation on the

436
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:44,320
on the total amount right that still is
like we have to 100% site prep somewhere

437
00:34:40,240 --> 00:34:50,639
else. So that's a cost that we incur
that we would not have to incur again if

438
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:54,480
we were able to rebuild on a spot.
>> Does that am I asking the right

439
00:34:53,839 --> 00:34:56,879
question?
>> Well, [snorts]

440
00:34:55,520 --> 00:35:02,400
» in the right way, I should say.
>> Yes. Mayor and council again at a at a

441
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:10,560
planning level budget perspective. Yes.
I I would agree that the um if we look

442
00:35:06,240 --> 00:35:15,280
out 20 years, the cost of um rehabbing
the courts in place in their current

443
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:20,400
location would be less than
>> constructing courts, you know, removing

444
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:23,680
the courts and or then building an
entirely new pickle ball project on a

445
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:28,079
different park location and going
through all of the

446
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:30,960
» planning and design and uh total site
construction costs. we would assume

447
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,960
those would still be higher than than
being able to replace the asset in

448
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:34,400
place.
>> Yeah,

449
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:37,839
» we don't we don't have a breakdown of
what those dollars are because there's

450
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:41,839
also 20 years of construction inflation
that we can't fully um hedge for. But

451
00:35:40,079 --> 00:35:45,760
yes, we would from a planning level
perspective assume the a new project

452
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:50,400
cost would be higher in 20 years than a
project that's replacing the courts in

453
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:57,800
place. How much is it like because we
can't say 20 years from now, but like

454
00:35:52,720 --> 00:35:57,800
looking at today, is there a percentage?

455
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:05,520
I would have to go back and look at the
October

456
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:10,400
um presentation. I I believe we had I I
know we had an opinion of probable costs

457
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:15,520
and it was broken down by line item.
>> Uh there were I want to say 25 to 30

458
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:21,200
line items in there that made up the
million dollars. So, I unfortunately,

459
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:24,880
um, Council Member Scholes, I don't have
I I can't tell you.

460
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:29,440
» My estimate right now on the spot, if I
had to say it's going, that would be

461
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:33,839
about $750,000 of the project would be
courts and lights and fencing and things

462
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:38,400
like that. But the courts themselves,
>> but we still $90,000 a year.

463
00:36:36,720 --> 00:36:42,240
» You're going to have $2 million in lease
payments by the time this is done.

464
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:44,560
» $90,000 a year for
>> You pay a dollar right now for the same

465
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:49,839
amount of time.
>> Yeah. And I'm trying to remember off the

466
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:54,800
top of my head when we renovated courts
at

467
00:36:52,240 --> 00:37:01,839
um North River Hills, for example, that
was in the neighborhood of $300,000 for

468
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:04,720
an onsite location. If that's helpful.
>> That is. Thank you.

469
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:08,240
» Just the courts, right? So, and the
fencing, but

470
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:11,200
» we already had the lights in place, so
>> Right. Right. Yeah. Okay. Yep.

471
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,960
» I appreciate that. Thank you.
>> Okay.

472
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:17,680
» Okay.
>> Yeah. I just want to pick up on what uh

473
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:22,560
Council Member Gerson said. I mean,
we're talking about the cost of the

474
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:25,920
investment and what it looks like if
either party gets out, which we probably

475
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:30,079
wouldn't, but they might, right? You
never know. Um company could get sold

476
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:37,440
again and a new direction and they want
to use the property. Um but

477
00:37:34,720 --> 00:37:40,800
maybe the bigger concern is $90,000 a
year.

478
00:37:38,079 --> 00:37:43,920
» $9,000 cost. Right now, we'd pay
>> escalates. Yeah. And it escalates. I

479
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:46,079
mean it's
>> that's a very

480
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:48,720
» that's for me
>> that's a very bad deal for the city

481
00:37:47,599 --> 00:37:52,640
» for me that's the
>> right

482
00:37:50,079 --> 00:37:57,280
» that's the cost
>> y

483
00:37:53,119 --> 00:38:02,160
» right now it was $1
>> 90,000 is

484
00:37:59,599 --> 00:38:06,800
and we have a plan moving forward so
would you continue please with

485
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:10,960
» and just mayor and council to quantify
that cost you're looking at over $2

486
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:15,040
million
>> over the 20 years

487
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,839
for that cost of just simply using the
land,

488
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:19,119
» right?
>> Um, council member Schultz, to your

489
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:24,400
question, I'm trying to pull up just
comparable what we have in terms of

490
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:28,800
replacement value for um, uh, ro the
rose park complex in our parks plan. I'm

491
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:31,440
still trying to find it. If I if I do,
I'll let you know what that number is.

492
00:38:30,240 --> 00:38:38,320
» Appreciate it. Thank you.
>> Yeah, but please proceed.

493
00:38:36,079 --> 00:38:43,760
So, council members, in addition to uh
getting new information from RTX and

494
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:50,160
Collins about a potential land uh lease,
uh we also learned on April 3rd from BV

495
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:54,720
United, uh which is the soccer club that
provides recreational and travel

496
00:38:52,240 --> 00:38:59,920
opportunities uh for soccer for Burns
residents and others. But uh a lot of

497
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:04,720
Burns residents uh who choose to
participate uh announced that they had

498
00:39:02,079 --> 00:39:11,280
an intent to dissolve as an organization
effective at the end of this month. Um

499
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:17,040
in August 2026
um and I did have a conversation with uh

500
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:22,720
the president of the Burns Athletic Club
just to affirm this. Um the Burns

501
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:26,240
Athletic Club intends to take over the
recreational

502
00:39:24,240 --> 00:39:33,520
um side of providing soccer
opportunities for Bernzo residents. So

503
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:38,560
um during that conversation, we also
just talked about um if they had a plan

504
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:42,800
on potential sites that they would be
interested in and um Carrie indicated

505
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:46,640
during that conversation [snorts]
that uh she did not foresee Cliff N

506
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:54,800
being one of the sites that they would
like to use. um which was um at a

507
00:39:50,880 --> 00:40:00,960
location that uh the that BV United had
been using pretty heavily um throughout

508
00:39:57,839 --> 00:40:05,839
their existence. So uh nonetheless uh
what this means is that um just because

509
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:11,440
of soccer decline in Burnernzo and the
fact that that organization cannot um

510
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:17,119
does not wish to continue uh we will
have a change in uh the field use uh

511
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:23,119
requests that we receive um which will
free up some additional fields um for at

512
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:28,400
a location as we'll talk about like
Cliff End that had been heavily

513
00:40:24,720 --> 00:40:32,480
programmed for soccer in the past.
So, um,

514
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:37,440
for this next section of the
presentation, we have the four

515
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:42,480
locations, uh, based on the order that
council had, uh, indicated back on

516
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:47,839
October 15th of 2025.
And what you're seeing uh, the rest of

517
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:52,800
this way is really uh, design, schematic
design, uh, statistics, things like that

518
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:58,560
that were reflective uh, and true at the
time of the October 15th. uh set another

519
00:40:55,760 --> 00:41:02,800
way. Things have not been updated for uh
just for this presentation or anything

520
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:08,480
like that. So, this site we're looking
at here is Rose Park. Um some of the

521
00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:13,119
things we talked about that evening were
that there'd be a proposal to add an

522
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:19,200
additional 14 stalls at this location.
It would have minimal impact on existing

523
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:23,440
user groups. Um i.e., Rose Park is
heavily used by the travel soccer

524
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:27,599
program. uh but this was an area that
was less used and they were more

525
00:41:25,359 --> 00:41:32,640
interested in a facility like this going
in at Rose Park where they could absorb

526
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:38,560
the impacts of it as opposed to cliff
end uh as is what they shared uh prior

527
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:42,720
to the October meeting. Um and from an
engagement standpoint there was a strong

528
00:41:40,720 --> 00:41:48,800
community support for this particular
location.

529
00:41:45,359 --> 00:41:54,560
These next two sites are cliff. Um this
particular one that you're looking at is

530
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:59,119
the location where uh the ath the soccer
club uh had their soccer fields laid out

531
00:41:57,359 --> 00:42:04,800
and we're using uh for their
programming. Um it was uh again the

532
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:09,040
designs are all similar but in this
particular case the parking lot's large

533
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:15,599
enough to to use and we were not
proposing additional stalls. However, we

534
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:19,680
did note on really heavy events um there
were situations where these parking lots

535
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:24,640
were full and people were having to
cross Cliff Road and that was kind of a

536
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:29,440
concern. So, um from an engagement
standpoint, um there was low community

537
00:42:27,599 --> 00:42:33,359
support for this particular location,
specifically by the soccer club,

538
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:38,079
indicating that it would have a negative
impact on their program. Council member

539
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:42,560
Gustiffson, I
>> I appreciate you going through all these

540
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:45,520
slides on this. Um,
>> in my mind, and I don't know where the

541
00:42:43,839 --> 00:42:49,119
rest of the council is at, I think Rose
Park doesn't seem to be a good business

542
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:52,720
decision on our part.
>> And now that we're finding out that the

543
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:56,160
soccer is not going to get displaced
down at Cliff Finn, I think that almost

544
00:42:54,560 --> 00:43:00,240
seems like the natural spot for it to
move to gravitate to. And I think we

545
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:03,920
could kind of cut to that chase a little
bit quicker if we

546
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:11,599
» And you've already assign talked to the
club and there's North River Hills which

547
00:43:06,240 --> 00:43:16,480
is a big soccer park. So let's move it
along.

548
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:23,040
» Uh let's
delay that. Um because while I

549
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:28,640
» I appreciate that we're like sitting
here and we've we've seen these and been

550
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:35,119
able to look at them. uh our residents
really haven't and that's what this is

551
00:43:32,720 --> 00:43:42,079
for is so that our residents can hear
this. So I I get that we're like

552
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:48,000
» come on move it along but
>> this is for residents and I I

553
00:43:45,119 --> 00:43:53,040
» if you can go back and and because the
history's been there and you've already

554
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:58,680
had engagement with a lot of the
interested parties on all of this. So,

555
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:05,359
» do we not want our residents to hear the
presentation?

556
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:10,560
» Uh, well, they saw this presentation
last year. But if you want to go through

557
00:44:09,839 --> 00:44:15,920
» I'll go faster.
>> Yeah. And then of course all of the the

558
00:44:13,359 --> 00:44:22,560
history of once you understood where
things were with the United Soccer Club,

559
00:44:20,240 --> 00:44:27,440
who have you talked with and what was
their feedback to you?

560
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:31,280
because you've talked to a lot of
interested parties from what I

561
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:35,839
understand.
>> I'll try to I'll speed up the process

562
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:38,800
here. Um this was the location with that
would have displaced the volleyball

563
00:44:37,119 --> 00:44:43,280
courts. The rest of the information that
I shared about the soccer location

564
00:44:40,720 --> 00:44:47,520
remains the same. Uh here's a look at
Alamagnet Park with a proposal of 18

565
00:44:45,599 --> 00:44:52,720
spots. There was no displacement of
users, but it had low community support.

566
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:58,800
And here's was Hollows Park which would
have displaced a uh a ball field by the

567
00:44:55,440 --> 00:45:04,560
BAC had new parking constructed and new
on street parking required. It had

568
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:09,280
moderate community support. So with that
said again I mentioned on October 15th

569
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:15,760
uh that these numbers were opinions of
probable cost related to construction at

570
00:45:11,599 --> 00:45:21,839
each of the locations. Um Alamagnet uh
Rose Park was the cheapest. Um, cliffn

571
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:26,000
uh was also the cheapest on the soccer
fields. Uh, the volleyball courts were

572
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:30,319
more because of the need to add
additional wetland um because we had to

573
00:45:28,319 --> 00:45:34,240
fill in some wetland followed by
Alamagnet and then Hollowos Park was

574
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:40,880
going to be the most expensive because
of the parking lot needs.

575
00:45:37,839 --> 00:45:45,760
So, uh, from a timeline standpoint, uh,
based on decisions from council tonight,

576
00:45:43,839 --> 00:45:49,599
if, uh, we determine there is a location
that you would like staff to proceed

577
00:45:47,359 --> 00:45:55,280
with on the project, uh, we would look
to engage, uh, the park neighbors at

578
00:45:52,240 --> 00:45:59,040
whatever the location was. Um, and we
still have our consultant that we've

579
00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:02,640
been using that we could, uh, be working
on survey and site design prep during

580
00:46:01,359 --> 00:46:07,760
that time while we were doing
engagement. Um, and then, uh, after that

581
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:12,400
was complete, we would be looking to do
the actual site design, develop the bids

582
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:18,319
and specs where we could actually bid
the project in January through February

583
00:46:15,119 --> 00:46:23,920
of next year with a goal to build it uh,
and through the spring and summer based

584
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:29,599
on the uh, preferred contractor chosen
schedule and the Minnesota weather.

585
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:33,760
So, that takes me to the last slide uh,
for policy consideration. Does the city

586
00:46:31,839 --> 00:46:37,920
council wish to continue with a pickle
ball project and if so at which

587
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:42,880
location?
>> So I have a question.

588
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:48,560
» So um
is there a map of where the pickle ball

589
00:46:45,839 --> 00:46:55,599
courts are not just in Burnsville but in
our surrounding city? So we can

590
00:46:53,040 --> 00:47:03,599
so we can see
like is is there a spot that is more

591
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:06,720
pickle ball rich and a spot more pickle
ball poor?

592
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:10,160
» Pickle ball desert.
>> Yes. Is there a pickle ball desert is

593
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:16,119
what I'm asking.
>> Do we have a wide angle view? I think

594
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:16,119
that's a good question to

595
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:23,200
» uh Garrett. Um,
[clears throat and cough] madame mayor,

596
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:28,000
uh, members of council, uh, in
Burnernzo, we just have the one pickle

597
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:32,400
ball complex that's an official pickle
ball complex. There are six courts that

598
00:47:30,319 --> 00:47:37,760
are dedicated solely to pickle ball.
There is one tennis court that is lined

599
00:47:35,119 --> 00:47:46,079
and temporary nets can be put in.
>> Um, at Red Oak Park that is on the uh,

600
00:47:42,319 --> 00:47:49,920
north east side of Burnsville. There are
no other pickle ball courts in

601
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:52,319
Burnsville that are dedicated pickleball
courts.

602
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:58,319
» Okay,
>> mayor and council, we we do have a a map

603
00:47:54,960 --> 00:48:00,400
of where uh we currently have the Rose
Park uh pickle ball

604
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:07,359
» Red Oak Park.
>> Red Oak, I'm sorry. I

605
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:10,319
» I apologize. uh in Burnsville and uh a
map that shows the so if we don't have

606
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:14,880
it in the presentation I think Bethany
can bring it up but a map that then

607
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:19,680
shows the uh six neighboring communities
and where their public dedicated pickle

608
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:23,920
ball facilities are.
>> Thank you because yes

609
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:30,720
» right here it's on Google Maps.
>> There you go. Y

610
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:34,480
» All right. So where are
our three choice? Well, really, we're

611
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:43,680
not going for the most expensive one, so
screw that. Um, where are the other two

612
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:48,319
choices [clears throat] at on that map?
>> One is on the west side, hollow, but

613
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:51,920
that is real close to a lot of houses.
>> I think Hollow is off the table.

614
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:56,000
» Yeah, Hollow's off the table. So, we're
looking at Alam Magnet, which would be

615
00:48:54,640 --> 00:49:01,119
far south.
>> Well, there by the

616
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:02,720
» And we're looking at Cliff Fen.
>> Yeah. which

617
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:08,319
» north
>> about in north

618
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:13,280
» that's in that north area
>> and then the Alamagnet one would be way

619
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:16,240
down southwest but by
>> 2011 southeast

620
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:19,119
» yeah sorry southeast
>> north of 42

621
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:22,079
» north of 40 yeah
>> oh

622
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:25,359
okay
>> like the ashaped lake

623
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:30,960
» yeah exactly east of there
>> got it to the border

624
00:49:28,559 --> 00:49:36,359
so they'll both be both on the east side
where Clifton Pen is in the central

625
00:49:33,359 --> 00:49:36,359
north.

626
00:49:38,559 --> 00:49:43,839
» And then you got Savage Community Park
on the west side.

627
00:49:41,119 --> 00:49:47,440
» And again, to be to be clear, this is
just simply public dedicated.

628
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:52,240
» Yeah.
>> Uh pickle ball facilities. So there are

629
00:49:49,839 --> 00:49:55,520
many other multi-striped, multi-use
courts, as an example, both in

630
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:58,319
Burnsville and in our surrounding
communities. So, this is just focused on

631
00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:01,680
dedicated.
>> And there's some privately owned for

632
00:50:01,119 --> 00:50:04,079
rent.
>> Yeah.

633
00:50:02,559 --> 00:50:06,160
» Pickle ball. Like I know there's one in
Lakeville that

634
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:11,800
» Yeah.
>> And they're indoors at a shopping center

635
00:50:08,559 --> 00:50:11,800
» year round.

636
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:20,000
» I wish we had I wish we had those two
spots marked on that map. That would be

637
00:50:17,599 --> 00:50:28,079
» helpful. We can update it. One of the
decisions that we made back in 2025,

638
00:50:23,119 --> 00:50:33,280
Garrett, was to say if Rose Park didn't
do you want to go through that again? I

639
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:37,760
mean, the decision that was made back in
2025 that if Rose Park wasn't the second

640
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:42,800
choice was cliff
>> 2025 already.

641
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:44,559
This is 26. I'm looking at the
background as well.

642
00:50:44,079 --> 00:50:49,440
» Yeah.
>> Yeah. Um, Madame Mayor, if I'm answering

643
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:55,440
your question correctly, I I believe
when council was discussing the project

644
00:50:51,520 --> 00:51:02,480
that evening, um, there was a consensus
that uh, Rose Park that council would

645
00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:07,040
like staff to talk to Collins and RTX
about the possibility of Rose Park.

646
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:13,200
» Um, there was also some support that
evening. um more than one council member

647
00:51:10,319 --> 00:51:19,520
had support for cliffn park as a as kind
of a 1a slash two um and then there was

648
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:26,640
various opinions about hollows and alam
magagnet that evening. So um from that

649
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:30,960
conversation we did have the discussions
and uh also with the new information um

650
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:35,200
have presented that tonight about
cliffn.

651
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:39,920
Okay, members of the council, the
question, the policy question before us

652
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:45,599
is that do we proceed
with

653
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:52,640
what is presented
that Rose Park

654
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:54,640
is I said it's prohibitive. I believe
90,000 from one

655
00:51:54,160 --> 00:52:02,720
» Yeah.
>> from one $1 to 90,000 is prohibitive to

656
00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:09,119
go to 90,000 a year. And yet we do have
to build it also. So

657
00:52:06,240 --> 00:52:10,240
» shall we say Rose Park is off the table?
>> Yes,

658
00:52:09,359 --> 00:52:16,319
» agreed. Yes.
>> Okay. Very good. So Cliff Fen is the

659
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:22,160
next and you have already
talked to all of the

660
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:28,480
soccer players at Cliff Penn and then
moving some of that those courts over to

661
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:31,920
North River Hills.
Madame Mayor, yes, I have had

662
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:36,400
discussions with the president of the
BAC. They are planning to do

663
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:40,240
recreational soccer and uh from our
conversation, she indicated that they do

664
00:52:38,319 --> 00:52:44,319
not plan to use Cliff End Park as part
of that process. Uh they are still

665
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:50,000
putting their plan together. It will
involve uh some of our neighboring

666
00:52:46,720 --> 00:52:54,079
communities and um but she assured me
that at the time of our conversation,

667
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:57,760
Clifen was not a location they were
planning to use.

668
00:52:54,800 --> 00:53:02,079
» Okay. So Cliff F then is
the next best here that we have on the

669
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:08,160
table council.
>> So my opposition to Cliff Fen at the

670
00:53:04,319 --> 00:53:12,720
time was the disruption of soccer. Um so
with this new information I've softened

671
00:53:10,079 --> 00:53:17,200
up on that location.
Um,

672
00:53:14,720 --> 00:53:24,720
I do want to call attention to the fact
that this is closer to a wildlife refuge

673
00:53:20,079 --> 00:53:28,240
that has sensitive breeding grounds for
eagles and other birds. And I know that

674
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:35,119
that was a pretty significant talking
point in opposition to Al Magnet. And

675
00:53:31,839 --> 00:53:39,920
so, um, I just want us to be consistent
here that if this is to go forward with

676
00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:45,920
Cliff Fen, that this could potentially
have more disruption here, um, as it

677
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:53,520
relates to that specific item than it
would at Al Magnet.

678
00:53:48,720 --> 00:53:58,400
» Okay. Any other thoughts, Tara?
So in the

679
00:53:56,480 --> 00:54:03,880
survey
that we did in mid July,

680
00:54:04,079 --> 00:54:08,359
um let's see.

681
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:21,559
Do you have that on
in the presentation or No, I don't think

682
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:21,559
so. Um so the

683
00:54:21,839 --> 00:54:29,839
All right. So, we're we're down to Ella
Magnet and Cliff Fen. And in the would

684
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:34,800
you like to see a pickle ball complex at
your park?

685
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:43,440
It was fairly comparable. Um
34% said yes to Alamagnet,

686
00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:48,480
28% said Cliff Fen yes.
Um which other park would you most like

687
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:57,040
to see? And they could do multiple
choice. Um, Alam Magagnet had 80. Cliff

688
00:54:52,960 --> 00:55:03,119
Ven had 62. Hollows Park had 89. So,
Hollow's Park actually

689
00:55:00,240 --> 00:55:08,760
was very high on that one. Rose Park was
the highest, but she's gone. Um,

690
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:21,119
and then are the current parking
conditions suitable?

691
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:31,119
Ala Magnet was 54% said yes. Cliff Fen
was 33% yes. Hollows Hollow Park was 29%

692
00:55:26,319 --> 00:55:37,200
yes. So that was not good. Um I'm
actually good with either

693
00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:44,559
» What about votes for opposed? Well, I
think one of the things that was very

694
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:50,160
critical was close to residence
was a critical item on and when we

695
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:57,440
looked at at Cliff Finn because it was
all industrial all around that was like

696
00:55:55,200 --> 00:56:04,400
Rose Park where you have industry all
around so you wouldn't be um affecting

697
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:09,200
residents. Yeah, that's definitely a
benefit of that park for sure.

698
00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:11,760
» Cliffn and Cliff fin had soccer in it in
the mix at that time of the survey as

699
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:17,599
well. So,
>> correct. Correct. Um, but it's changed

700
00:56:14,799 --> 00:56:22,480
now and so it appears to me that
>> the BCA is saying, "Yeah, we're going to

701
00:56:20,319 --> 00:56:27,200
move everything." And because North
River Hills is really a beautiful soccer

702
00:56:24,799 --> 00:56:30,599
complex,
>> really beautiful.

703
00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:35,920
So,
>> so could you pop up that map again so

704
00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:41,119
that we can put the P like just put a
little spot to where that would be

705
00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:45,280
» very close to Red Oak.
>> Yeah. Well, you can take a look at

706
00:56:44,319 --> 00:56:48,480
» Cliff
>> what you had showed before on the little

707
00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:52,960
crosshairs
>> because there's all industry all around.

708
00:56:51,599 --> 00:56:57,040
» Right. But we're we're looking at like
where is it in relation to the to the

709
00:56:54,960 --> 00:57:03,280
others. Okay. So, that crosshair would
be which is pretty good. um where Cliff

710
00:56:59,839 --> 00:57:12,160
Hen Fen would be and then Alamagnet
would be about go so so so so so

711
00:57:08,559 --> 00:57:22,079
right in there. So again,
pretty good for not being directly by

712
00:57:18,079 --> 00:57:27,280
another another um public
pickle ball court.

713
00:57:24,799 --> 00:57:32,240
So I I think they're both good. I don't
I don't think we can go wrong either way

714
00:57:29,920 --> 00:57:35,920
at this point.
>> The one thing that I would say with

715
00:57:33,839 --> 00:57:41,440
Cliff and why I really liked it is
because it's all industry around and

716
00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:44,440
it's not going to have uh a residential
impact.

717
00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:55,359
» Well, I mean, we have
[laughter] we already have ball courts

718
00:57:52,079 --> 00:57:59,520
at Alam Magnet. Like there's already
ball courts there. So, like I I

719
00:57:57,359 --> 00:58:02,880
understand what you're saying, but that
that would be totally correct if there

720
00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:07,200
were not
>> other ball courts already there.

721
00:58:05,359 --> 00:58:14,480
» Yeah.
But there's a difference between

722
00:58:10,799 --> 00:58:17,880
base softball, baseball, and over at
Alam Magnant

723
00:58:18,160 --> 00:58:29,440
than pickle ball
and what we experience from residents

724
00:58:24,799 --> 00:58:33,760
that have um that live next to Red Oak.
>> Oh, and I have one more question,

725
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:39,200
Garrett. For the volleyball courts that
are at Cliff Fen, are we looking at

726
00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:43,200
perhaps moving those anyway
>> because they're on the other side?

727
00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:49,119
» No, this is just an council member
Schultz. Um there there would be no plan

728
00:58:46,240 --> 00:58:56,400
to replace those volleyball courts
unless we chose that as the location.

729
00:58:52,319 --> 00:59:01,119
And then we talked back on October 15th
of 2025 that if we did do that, it might

730
00:58:59,200 --> 00:59:04,640
make sense to put it at a Crystal Beach
or something like that. Right.

731
00:59:02,559 --> 00:59:08,559
» Okay. That's Yes. Okay. I wanted to make
sure that that was still on discussion

732
00:59:06,559 --> 00:59:14,240
that um if we are looking at moving
those volleyball courts, Crystal Beach

733
00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:17,040
might be a better location for those.
So, thank you. Okay.

734
00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:20,799
» And Crystal Beach is where they play
volleyball right now.

735
00:59:20,319 --> 00:59:25,520
» Yeah,
>> correct. We we have league play at

736
00:59:22,720 --> 00:59:28,880
Cliffn and Alamagnet and and Crystal
Beach is

737
00:59:26,799 --> 00:59:30,960
» on any nice day. It's there's almost
always people out there using that

738
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:32,240
location.
>> Yeah,

739
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:36,160
» that is correct.
>> It's a pickup.

740
00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:39,040
» I'd also like to add I'm also okay not
doing pickle ball at all at this point

741
00:59:38,319 --> 00:59:42,760
um
>> as a viable option.

742
00:59:43,599 --> 00:59:51,839
» I understand. So the thing is the
question the policy question is council

743
00:59:48,720 --> 00:59:57,200
members do we want to continue with the
pickle ball project

744
00:59:54,319 --> 01:00:04,400
» and
do we agree that cliff park is what

745
01:00:01,920 --> 01:00:09,760
staff should be focusing their attention
to

746
01:00:07,119 --> 01:00:14,880
» when did we when was this originally
supposed to break ground like what year

747
01:00:12,799 --> 01:00:19,040
» 24 I think No,
>> like we're three years ago, right?

748
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:21,359
» Two or three. Yeah. I mean, goes back
that long.

749
01:00:19,680 --> 01:00:24,160
» I mean, I'm I'm actually kind of with
Vince.

750
01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:28,880
» I mean, it's [clears throat]
>> surprisette.

751
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:33,520
» It's been three years.
from my perspective is the integrity of

752
01:00:31,599 --> 01:00:40,720
our communication
with everybody, the pickle ball

753
01:00:37,200 --> 01:00:47,160
community as well as the residents and
and all of the other stakeholders.

754
01:00:44,160 --> 01:00:47,160
So

755
01:00:48,079 --> 01:01:00,400
staff is waiting for us
to say do we move on with a pickle ball

756
01:00:56,400 --> 01:01:06,799
and it's cliff the next. I mean there
this had been worked on with staff and

757
01:01:03,359 --> 01:01:10,240
the communities both
the pickle ball community and the soccer

758
01:01:09,119 --> 01:01:13,040
community. So
>> I've already said move on with cliff

759
01:01:11,760 --> 01:01:16,079
fence. Okay.
>> Just waiting for the rest of them to

760
01:01:14,559 --> 01:01:21,520
figure it out.
>> I'm actually uh no for doing it at all

761
01:01:18,400 --> 01:01:27,692
at this point. It's
we're we're way past. So,

762
01:01:24,880 --> 01:01:31,200
» well, people still [clears throat]
[snorts]

763
01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:38,720
are saying to us that they they would
like pickle ball and uh we said that we

764
01:01:35,359 --> 01:01:46,400
would proceed with a project and have
set aside money for it. Dan Keelley.

765
01:01:43,839 --> 01:01:51,280
» Uh I think there's a
an open question on that we should

766
01:01:48,559 --> 01:01:57,440
address. Do we have any data on what the
current trends for usage uh and demand?

767
01:01:55,440 --> 01:02:03,040
I know I continue to hear people going
to other cities that can't get on Red

768
01:02:00,319 --> 01:02:08,400
Oak, but uh and of course there's
private uh providers popping up. my

769
01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:14,400
couple of my family members go to
Lakeville where they can swipe a card,

770
01:02:10,480 --> 01:02:20,748
get in and play um without any staff
being there. It's kind of like a

771
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:24,000
self-use gym sort of like but um
[clears throat]

772
01:02:21,599 --> 01:02:26,880
do we have any data,
>> Garrett?

773
01:02:24,480 --> 01:02:31,280
» Uh Council Member Keley, I will
reiterate that all of the information

774
01:02:28,720 --> 01:02:36,960
that we've shared tonight is from our
past projects. We have not updated any

775
01:02:33,520 --> 01:02:41,280
new information on this in regards to
community engagement,

776
01:02:38,880 --> 01:02:45,119
uh, studies on number of people in
Bernzo playing, anything like that. So,

777
01:02:44,000 --> 01:02:50,079
» okay,
>> Madame Mayor, I'll I'll I'll share some

778
01:02:47,440 --> 01:02:54,079
information that just popped up.
National trends, younger, faster, and

779
01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:57,520
dominated by entertainment. The numbers
are staggering. According to Sports and

780
01:02:55,599 --> 01:03:03,040
Fitness Industry Association, the active
pickle ball participation hit 24 million

781
01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:08,480
Americans. Experts project active player
numbers to easily clear 27 to 29

782
01:03:06,160 --> 01:03:12,240
million. The demographics have flipped.
The stereotype of pickle ball being for

783
01:03:10,079 --> 01:03:16,400
seniors is dead. The fastest growing
demographic is actual players under 24

784
01:03:15,119 --> 01:03:20,640
years old
>> which is the Gen Z.

785
01:03:18,160 --> 01:03:24,938
» Today roughly 70% of all players are
under 45 and the average player age is

786
01:03:23,440 --> 01:03:27,440
sitting in the mid-30s.
>> [snorts]

787
01:03:24,960 --> 01:03:31,680
» the top golfificication
of the sport. Simply building concrete

788
01:03:29,599 --> 01:03:35,520
slabs and public parks is no longer
enough to meet demand. We're seeing a

789
01:03:33,680 --> 01:03:39,680
massive wave of private capital flowing
into the massive indoor entertainment

790
01:03:37,599 --> 01:03:44,160
venues, social hubs featuring
professionalgrade courts, high-end food,

791
01:03:41,839 --> 01:03:47,039
craft cocktails, and lounge areas. We're
not going to be in that business, but um

792
01:03:46,720 --> 01:03:48,559
» it
>> because that's what the younger crowd

793
01:03:48,319 --> 01:03:51,440
want.
>> Yeah. So, what you're saying that there

794
01:03:49,920 --> 01:03:55,359
is a demand.
>> There is there is still huge demand.

795
01:03:53,920 --> 01:03:58,720
too. They're looking for a little bit
more than just public

796
01:03:56,880 --> 01:04:03,440
» public courts. They're looking for, you
know,

797
01:04:01,200 --> 01:04:08,160
» what I'm seeing is that Vince, you're
saying you don't want to do a a ball.

798
01:04:06,319 --> 01:04:11,520
» I'm just I'm in different I you know, if
the three of if there's three votes to

799
01:04:10,079 --> 01:04:15,480
move forward with cliff, I'm not going
to fight you on it. Um,

800
01:04:16,160 --> 01:04:22,920
it's just a lot of money to spend on
>> Well,

801
01:04:23,359 --> 01:04:29,359
and Cara, you said you don't want to
move forward with the pickle ball.

802
01:04:27,359 --> 01:04:34,559
» Yeah. I mean, that's that's pretty much
where I'm at. I'm not I'm not like

803
01:04:31,520 --> 01:04:40,720
» not as I'm not I'm not a hard no on
this, but I am definitely not a yes on

804
01:04:37,920 --> 01:04:45,039
this at this point. It
>> Okay.

805
01:04:42,160 --> 01:04:52,240
that the time to do it is like when it's
doing the upswing. But yes, now we are

806
01:04:48,160 --> 01:04:59,799
and I do understand the having public
courts because you're not paying to use

807
01:04:55,200 --> 01:04:59,799
those, right? Um,

808
01:05:02,079 --> 01:05:07,119
» but man, I'm just not
>> I'm not I'm not enthused after after

809
01:05:06,400 --> 01:05:11,440
after
>> after three years of this and it and and

810
01:05:09,760 --> 01:05:15,520
it's not even going to break ground
until what May of 2027.

811
01:05:13,920 --> 01:05:20,520
» People have been patient with our
process. I am trying to be

812
01:05:21,039 --> 01:05:27,280
to have the integrity
because people have been patient with

813
01:05:25,280 --> 01:05:34,000
our process
and we're arrived here at the point

814
01:05:29,680 --> 01:05:43,280
where Rose Park isn't um a viable option
for us anymore but Cliff Fen is

815
01:05:37,680 --> 01:05:49,920
and Dan Keley you have read an analysis
that it's still a high demand and people

816
01:05:46,319 --> 01:05:55,920
still want to see a pickle ball uh
pickle ball courts in Burnsville. So,

817
01:05:53,440 --> 01:06:01,760
I'm a cliff fan because from the very
beginning it was the one that isn't

818
01:05:58,319 --> 01:06:08,079
close to any resident. It's around
uh an industrial area and

819
01:06:05,200 --> 01:06:12,319
so it's not going to have that impact on
people. So, yes,

820
01:06:10,079 --> 01:06:16,799
» I just there's a sort of a takeaway
statement here. Pickle ball is no longer

821
01:06:14,160 --> 01:06:20,799
just a trend. It's cemented itself as a
standard piece of municipal

822
01:06:18,960 --> 01:06:24,799
» and commercial infrastructure for cold
weather states like Minnesota. The next

823
01:06:22,640 --> 01:06:27,599
phase is growing into highquality indoor
access,

824
01:06:25,599 --> 01:06:30,240
» but that doesn't replace, you know, the
sort of the the need for

825
01:06:29,760 --> 01:06:34,400
» public
>> free public courts for those that want

826
01:06:32,480 --> 01:06:38,559
to play. And it does say it's even
though the the growth is in the Gen Z,

827
01:06:36,799 --> 01:06:42,079
it's still multigenerational. There's
still a lot of people

828
01:06:40,240 --> 01:06:46,640
» uh seniors who still play it. It's kind
of um they were the the first

829
01:06:44,640 --> 01:06:50,079
demographic to really pick up on it.
>> Yeah.

830
01:06:47,119 --> 01:06:55,680
» Um so I I I would say I haven't changed
my position. Um I liked Cliff Ven the

831
01:06:54,160 --> 01:06:57,039
last time we talked about this. I still
like Cliff Ven.

832
01:06:56,559 --> 01:07:03,200
» Okay.
>> Um I think it um Vince's point is very

833
01:07:01,119 --> 01:07:05,760
valid. It's it's a budding a
>> Yeah.

834
01:07:03,680 --> 01:07:12,240
» Uh a nature preserve. It's going to have
the same type of negative impact. So,

835
01:07:08,079 --> 01:07:17,359
both locations have that. Um, it's in an
industrial area where I would prefer to

836
01:07:14,240 --> 01:07:21,200
see it because of the noise. Um, I
think, you know, I think I might have

837
01:07:18,960 --> 01:07:27,839
said this last time, the inventors of
the sport didn't really think through

838
01:07:23,520 --> 01:07:31,280
the ball texture and and uh makeup like
>> tennis ball. It's a lot quieter. Well,

839
01:07:29,440 --> 01:07:34,720
they they could have actually made a
ball, but they threw it together and it

840
01:07:33,039 --> 01:07:38,079
just caught on like wildfire before they
could even perfect it. Mhm.

841
01:07:36,079 --> 01:07:40,960
» So, it is what it is. Unfortunately,
it's noisy.

842
01:07:39,359 --> 01:07:43,440
» So, you're you're
>> I'm in favor of moving forward with

843
01:07:42,640 --> 01:07:45,680
Cliffn.
>> Okay. So, um

844
01:07:45,119 --> 01:07:50,640
» that's very
>> There are three three votes to move

845
01:07:47,520 --> 01:07:55,359
forward with Cliff Fen.
>> Okay.

846
01:07:53,599 --> 01:07:59,359
» Is there anything else that you need
from us with regard to the policy

847
01:07:57,920 --> 01:08:02,880
question?
>> Madame Mayor, there is not. uh we have

848
01:08:01,280 --> 01:08:07,039
direction to continue with the project
and to focus on cliffn as the location.

849
01:08:05,920 --> 01:08:12,720
» Okay.
>> And then you can let the pickle ball

850
01:08:10,000 --> 01:08:17,359
community also know that what what
transpired tonight.

851
01:08:14,880 --> 01:08:22,400
» Yes, madame mayor. We would uh as I
mentioned, we would plan to do an

852
01:08:19,359 --> 01:08:27,920
engagement time period with a popup at
Cliff Park. Um do a mailing like we have

853
01:08:25,679 --> 01:08:33,199
to the neighborhood around there,
businesses, uh etc.

854
01:08:30,640 --> 01:08:39,440
make sure that the Burns Athletic Club
was invited to participate um and

855
01:08:37,199 --> 01:08:43,920
continue to share the information. So,
>> okay, thank you very much.

856
01:08:42,239 --> 01:08:50,719
Okay,
now we um move on to round table and

857
01:08:48,400 --> 01:08:55,040
there is a signed ordinance amendment on
a round table and I believe council

858
01:08:52,640 --> 01:08:58,040
member Keely this is yours.
>> Yes.

859
01:08:59,279 --> 01:09:06,799
Uh, council members and mayor, uh, the
primary reason I'm asking for the

860
01:09:04,239 --> 01:09:12,640
council to consider an amendment to our
signed ordinance in uh, in a couple of

861
01:09:09,279 --> 01:09:17,759
zones, types of zones, is is that the
upper facade, high level roof line

862
01:09:14,480 --> 01:09:22,319
signage for multi-story office and
mixeduse buildings has some real

863
01:09:19,839 --> 01:09:26,960
benefits. And when we talked about this
back when we were doing the signage in

864
01:09:24,480 --> 01:09:30,319
the HO hotc, there [snorts] was one
building that came to mind. And I didn't

865
01:09:28,400 --> 01:09:34,799
think about the second building. Um, and
I wondered why they didn't have

866
01:09:32,640 --> 01:09:38,960
anything. It's a four or five. It's a
five-story building because as you drive

867
01:09:37,359 --> 01:09:44,000
around the Twin Cities, you see all
those buildings have signage that um

868
01:09:42,239 --> 01:09:49,120
runs along the very top edge of the
building. And from my retail side, I

869
01:09:47,520 --> 01:09:52,560
think, well, every retailer wants that,
right? You know, you want to be able to

870
01:09:50,880 --> 01:09:57,679
say, "This is where I'm at, right? This
is my company." Um, but in the in the

871
01:09:55,280 --> 01:10:02,000
case of office, it's it's more about
being a key employment hub. Um, and a

872
01:10:00,480 --> 01:10:07,920
lot of large companies that are looking
to locate do want to put their sign up

873
01:10:05,120 --> 01:10:11,120
because um, they might be a large user
of square footage. They might be a

874
01:10:09,600 --> 01:10:16,000
company that's bringing some good jobs
and they kind of want that branding out

875
01:10:13,040 --> 01:10:19,840
there. Um, it provides visual navigation
along corridors, of course, and it

876
01:10:17,920 --> 01:10:24,480
serves an e as an economic development
tool to attract major corporate anchor

877
01:10:22,159 --> 01:10:29,520
tenants for brand visibility, which
happens to be what happened here. Um,

878
01:10:27,440 --> 01:10:35,840
there is an application that has been in
the city for a while in the building.

879
01:10:32,560 --> 01:10:39,679
Um, it's called um
>> well, it's the only

880
01:10:37,840 --> 01:10:43,360
» uh grant it's a gateway office plaza.
>> Yeah. It's the only fivestory office

881
01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:46,960
building that we have.
>> And um and that's the building that I

882
01:10:45,440 --> 01:10:50,320
remember thinking about when we were
redoing the zoning thinking like

883
01:10:48,640 --> 01:10:53,600
monument sign there that doesn't. And I
don't I couldn't even find a sign. If

884
01:10:51,840 --> 01:10:57,280
they have a monument [snorts] sign, it's
not showing up on Google Maps. When I I

885
01:10:55,679 --> 01:11:01,199
did the street view, I was thinking they
must have something like that. But um

886
01:10:59,520 --> 01:11:05,760
couldn't find anything unless it's it's
hiding behind some bushes.

887
01:11:03,520 --> 01:11:10,159
But that's the that's the circumstance
that drew our attention to it, which is

888
01:11:07,679 --> 01:11:15,199
kind of the way even when we go through
the code and we do a thorough review,

889
01:11:12,239 --> 01:11:19,920
you can't predict everything. And that
was the one that I remember thinking

890
01:11:17,040 --> 01:11:23,920
about like maybe we should allow signs
like these types of buildings have on in

891
01:11:21,679 --> 01:11:27,360
other cities. And we didn't address it
at the time because there wasn't really

892
01:11:25,440 --> 01:11:31,199
a driving need. Now there's a there's a
there's an inquiry. And I thought about

893
01:11:30,080 --> 01:11:36,159
it. I thought, well, there's another
building. Um, Grand Market Square is

894
01:11:34,159 --> 01:11:38,719
» We do have a sign for Grandtory. Yeah,
it has the

895
01:11:36,800 --> 01:11:43,760
» There's It's right on the at the top.
>> It doesn't have a brand sign. It has the

896
01:11:41,600 --> 01:11:50,000
» building name sign, right? Not not the
tenants name.

897
01:11:45,120 --> 01:11:53,280
» Uh, so, uh, you know, as a city, um, we
certainly want to attract corporate

898
01:11:51,520 --> 01:11:58,239
tenants, uh, because they usually bring
good paying jobs. Um, in past years we

899
01:11:56,560 --> 01:12:03,440
we did a process where council member
Scholes pride up eliminating building

900
01:12:00,239 --> 01:12:08,480
heights in certain zones. Hard the city
was one, the mall center village was

901
01:12:05,760 --> 01:12:12,239
another, and then I think it was maybe a
portion of Highway 13, and maybe that's

902
01:12:10,320 --> 01:12:16,159
just all part of HOTC, but I remember
you specifically saying like Highway 13

903
01:12:14,159 --> 01:12:21,679
and like I35, but that might be
encompassed in the HOTC. Um, and so we

904
01:12:19,840 --> 01:12:25,520
did we we removed the building height.
So we were hoping that would draw some,

905
01:12:23,920 --> 01:12:28,960
you know, when when some of those areas
get redeveloped, some of those office

906
01:12:27,040 --> 01:12:32,480
complexes that are one-story, if
somebody comes in and buys it and they

907
01:12:30,159 --> 01:12:38,640
want to do a multi-story building,
that'd be great. Um, so I think this

908
01:12:36,640 --> 01:12:43,920
this is not just about that one
application. This made me think broadly

909
01:12:41,040 --> 01:12:49,040
about um these two major zones with no
building height and the future. what is

910
01:12:46,640 --> 01:12:54,239
it going to attract and how could that
be enhanced to attract more people who

911
01:12:52,000 --> 01:12:58,960
might build a multi-story building
especially if they it usually starts I

912
01:12:56,800 --> 01:13:03,600
mean office construction isn't pure
speculative they usually have two or

913
01:13:01,600 --> 01:13:07,679
three major tenants lined up in advance
of acquiring the property and building

914
01:13:05,440 --> 01:13:12,000
the multi-story building and those major
tenants will look for can I have my

915
01:13:10,000 --> 01:13:17,679
brand on the outside of the building in
our city right now they cannot um so My

916
01:13:15,840 --> 01:13:22,800
suggestion is to for us to consider
changing our ordinance for buildings

917
01:13:19,520 --> 01:13:27,920
that are three stories or higher uh that
are office or office mixed use. Right?

918
01:13:25,440 --> 01:13:31,840
This is not meant for residential or
apartment buildings. This is strictly

919
01:13:29,840 --> 01:13:35,520
business buildings. And we have two
Grand Market Square and Gateway Office

920
01:13:33,520 --> 01:13:38,480
Plaza that would fall under this. So
here's some examples of what you see

921
01:13:37,040 --> 01:13:42,640
when you drive around. Health Partners
corporate office in Bloomington. Um

922
01:13:41,040 --> 01:13:47,679
formerly Seridian the Day Force
headquarters. uh multi-story buildings

923
01:13:44,880 --> 01:13:53,760
in suburbs. Richfield has Best Buy, of
course, that's ginormous uh multiple

924
01:13:50,960 --> 01:13:57,600
buildings. Um St. Louis Park has
Bridgewater Bank corporate headquarters

925
01:13:55,360 --> 01:14:03,120
and they're a first tier suburb. Eden
Prairie and Minnetonka have uh Optum

926
01:14:00,800 --> 01:14:04,880
United Health has some monster buildings
and of course they want their brand on

927
01:14:04,400 --> 01:14:10,640
the outside.
>> So does M Health here in Burnsville.

928
01:14:07,199 --> 01:14:14,080
» Yeah. So, it's I think we we just didn't
have something compelling at the time to

929
01:14:12,239 --> 01:14:17,360
draw attention to it. Now, we do, and I
think it's the right thing to do, not

930
01:14:15,840 --> 01:14:21,760
only for today, but for the future, for
both of these buildings and hopefully

931
01:14:19,600 --> 01:14:27,199
some future buildings that get built.
Um,

932
01:14:23,840 --> 01:14:31,040
I think that it's a it's a common sense
recommendation because it's really not

933
01:14:28,640 --> 01:14:36,560
uncommon in other suburbs and certainly
cities. And I think I would suggest that

934
01:14:33,440 --> 01:14:41,280
we adjust the uh the ordinance to allow
these to have and and I'm talking very

935
01:14:39,040 --> 01:14:47,679
specific. These are right along the roof
line. These are not down on any given

936
01:14:44,159 --> 01:14:52,159
floor. These are only uh what you would
uh consider a roof line sign and it

937
01:14:50,400 --> 01:14:57,600
would have to be individual backlit
letters the quality that we require uh

938
01:14:55,040 --> 01:15:01,440
in the rest of our city.
uh fitting within a particular size that

939
01:14:59,920 --> 01:15:05,600
can be those kind of details can be
worked out by staff uh if they bring it

940
01:15:03,440 --> 01:15:09,920
back to us if the council agrees with
this concept.

941
01:15:07,760 --> 01:15:17,040
I agree that we need to amend our sign
ordinance, Dan,

942
01:15:12,800 --> 01:15:21,120
but it's from my perspective
that's something that we're going to

943
01:15:18,719 --> 01:15:29,120
have staff would have to do a lot of
work to look at that and to do it

944
01:15:24,640 --> 01:15:36,400
throughout the city. And uh I believe
there is amendments coming in I think in

945
01:15:33,120 --> 01:15:43,120
a second phase for zoning. Jeff, am I
correct in that? The zoning amendments

946
01:15:39,679 --> 01:15:48,480
that would fit right in to that. But I
want to address

947
01:15:45,360 --> 01:15:54,480
what this applicant wants
and we can make I think staff had a

948
01:15:51,679 --> 01:16:01,840
pathway for this applicant to get that
done for what they want to do at the

949
01:15:58,080 --> 01:16:07,920
gateway building. And then
because the bulk of the work in looking

950
01:16:04,480 --> 01:16:14,960
at a comprehensive sign ordinance is
going to take time but I want to address

951
01:16:12,239 --> 01:16:24,159
the immediate need
um for this particular applicant. So, if

952
01:16:18,480 --> 01:16:30,560
we can do that and then have staff look
at the sign ordinance during the work

953
01:16:27,360 --> 01:16:35,280
that they're doing with the second phase
of the zoning ordinance

954
01:16:33,040 --> 01:16:40,960
and so they know that we want it
throughout the whole city, but I want to

955
01:16:38,400 --> 01:16:44,560
get this one done for this applicant for
gateway if that's okay. Yeah, I think I

956
01:16:43,920 --> 01:16:48,480
just I wouldn't want
>> I think we have a concept that I I

957
01:16:46,800 --> 01:16:53,920
believe they have a concept they want to
bring to us and we can amend because

958
01:16:50,640 --> 01:16:57,920
this is only about the DOT the the
transit oriented development

959
01:16:56,159 --> 01:17:02,000
» the to do they have to pay
>> that's that's the one that Yeah. And

960
01:16:59,760 --> 01:17:05,663
what they're proposing is I have a
picture of it. It's it's a sign that

961
01:17:03,679 --> 01:17:09,440
runs right along the roof line. That's
[snorts] exactly what I'm talking about,

962
01:17:06,800 --> 01:17:13,360
which is what other, you know, that's
why I'm saying

963
01:17:11,199 --> 01:17:14,960
» let's just address that so they can move
forward.

964
01:17:13,840 --> 01:17:18,880
» I don't have a problem with that. I just
don't want to go I don't want them to go

965
01:17:16,480 --> 01:17:22,400
through any additional expense as a
result of them coming in as a special

966
01:17:20,560 --> 01:17:26,560
because our ordinance doesn't support
it. I think our ordinance is wrong and I

967
01:17:24,800 --> 01:17:30,719
think we need to fix the ordinance and
that they or anybody behind them can do

968
01:17:29,040 --> 01:17:34,800
this like a normal assignment.
>> I agree with that. But this is this is

969
01:17:32,719 --> 01:17:41,040
the concept. They're not going to be
it's like any concept development that a

970
01:17:37,600 --> 01:17:45,199
a developer brings before us before they
spend any more money. You know, is it a

971
01:17:44,000 --> 01:17:48,080
go or no go?
>> Yeah.

972
01:17:45,840 --> 01:17:52,960
» So, [snorts] that's all I'm saying. It's
it's not something that we haven't done

973
01:17:50,640 --> 01:17:58,400
with concept development
>> and and I think that's what staff had

974
01:17:56,000 --> 01:18:01,880
asked them to do. It's not going to cost
them any money

975
01:18:02,320 --> 01:18:10,719
» to do the concert.
>> Is that correct? City Manager Lindber.

976
01:18:08,000 --> 01:18:17,440
» Madame Mayor, members of the council, I
it is correct that there is a that our

977
01:18:13,280 --> 01:18:21,840
team planning team uh has been uh
talking with the property owners,

978
01:18:19,440 --> 01:18:28,000
individuals involved. Uh there is not a
current application. uh our team uh and

979
01:18:25,520 --> 01:18:33,360
you might recall that there I shared
with you in early June uh that our team

980
01:18:31,120 --> 01:18:39,280
had offered the councils at the time
brand new newly adopted consulate plan

981
01:18:36,239 --> 01:18:42,960
review process in order to expedite an
opportunity ahead of an application

982
01:18:41,760 --> 01:18:49,120
ahead of
>> the applicable fees for the applicant or

983
01:18:46,080 --> 01:18:55,679
escrow that would be required uh in the
city's adopted fee schedule. um the

984
01:18:52,960 --> 01:18:59,760
opportunity to come talk to the council
about the concept which is the spirit of

985
01:18:57,440 --> 01:19:04,719
that that planning tool as it's now
adopted into ordinance. Uh so um at the

986
01:19:03,600 --> 01:19:09,760
end of the day
>> uh hopefully that helps clarify process

987
01:19:07,920 --> 01:19:13,120
and where we're at. Uh but there's no
there's no application right now and

988
01:19:11,280 --> 01:19:17,440
there wouldn't be fees until the point
of application. But they they bring a

989
01:19:15,199 --> 01:19:22,960
concept just like the
>> I just want to I I think they'd be

990
01:19:20,320 --> 01:19:28,000
perfectly acceptable to that.
>> I think they were thrown a curve on the

991
01:19:26,239 --> 01:19:32,239
success rate and it made them a little
apprehensive. And so I just said, you

992
01:19:30,800 --> 01:19:36,560
know, you can come back and and deal
with staff. I want to deal with the

993
01:19:33,840 --> 01:19:39,440
ordinance. The ordinance is changing is
>> because it's not about them. It's about

994
01:19:38,800 --> 01:19:43,760
Grand [snorts and clears throat] Market
and any other building that might be

995
01:19:41,520 --> 01:19:46,080
looked upon as built in Burnsville and
having the ability to put those brands

996
01:19:45,360 --> 01:19:50,640
along the top.
>> I I agree with that, but I but that

997
01:19:48,239 --> 01:19:54,480
takes such a long time, but they need to
get this done now

998
01:19:52,480 --> 01:20:00,960
» and we've done and we've done concept
before. Uh look at old old Highway 34.

999
01:19:58,719 --> 01:20:05,280
They came with a concept
>> because it was a residential area. They

1000
01:20:02,960 --> 01:20:10,880
didn't have and so when we said sure go
ahead they were able to move forward

1001
01:20:07,520 --> 01:20:15,080
then and then file an application
>> cara

1002
01:20:11,360 --> 01:20:15,080
» so what is the cost

1003
01:20:15,600 --> 01:20:20,719
» of an application
>> yeah madam mayor members of the council

1004
01:20:18,719 --> 01:20:23,280
I would have to look that up I looks
like Jeff might have the information

1005
01:20:22,159 --> 01:20:25,440
available
>> mayor council

1006
01:20:24,159 --> 01:20:29,679
» come in with a concept
>> yeah I was just looking at our 2026

1007
01:20:27,199 --> 01:20:33,600
adopted fee schedule and there's uh for
us uh concept plan review uh which is

1008
01:20:32,080 --> 01:20:36,480
the coming directly to the council for
policy direction ahead of a formal

1009
01:20:35,360 --> 01:20:39,920
application.
>> There's there's two charges that the

1010
01:20:37,920 --> 01:20:45,760
city has. There's the application fee
which is $422

1011
01:20:42,480 --> 01:20:49,360
and that's to cover um hard costs of the
city, right? Mailings and stuff and then

1012
01:20:47,360 --> 01:20:54,640
there is also as as we do with every
development application a $2,000 escrow

1013
01:20:51,600 --> 01:20:58,239
deposit and that's to pay for any um
external costs that the city

1014
01:20:55,840 --> 01:21:03,040
» may have to pay that for a concept to
come before us. uh mayor, in the fee

1015
01:21:01,040 --> 01:21:07,280
schedule, it still includes that escrow
for a for a concept plan review because

1016
01:21:06,239 --> 01:21:12,320
there have been a couple times where
we've done um some

1017
01:21:10,800 --> 01:21:16,640
it's usually engineering consultants,
not applicable in this case, or uh legal

1018
01:21:14,719 --> 01:21:20,400
fees, anything any um external costs
that we incur, would they be paid from

1019
01:21:18,159 --> 01:21:24,080
that escrow? If there are none, we would
re we would return that money. Um um

1020
01:21:22,800 --> 01:21:26,880
otherwise, we would pay those expenses
and and reimburse the any sort of

1021
01:21:25,760 --> 01:21:31,040
difference between the deposits. Is this
an engineering thing or or just a

1022
01:21:29,679 --> 01:21:33,920
aesthetics thing that we're talking
about?

1023
01:21:32,800 --> 01:21:37,600
» Yeah, Jeff.
>> I mean, when you talk about signs,

1024
01:21:35,600 --> 01:21:42,080
you're
>> mayor and council. I would anticipate in

1025
01:21:39,360 --> 01:21:46,000
a concept plan review such as this, the
I I would anticipate the only expense we

1026
01:21:43,920 --> 01:21:50,000
could incur is any legal fees that be
necessary just to draft the ordinance

1027
01:21:47,840 --> 01:21:54,320
changes or or whatnot. But that's the
only the concept uh fee I can anticipate

1028
01:21:52,800 --> 01:21:57,280
for this project.
>> Yeah.

1029
01:21:56,000 --> 01:22:00,639
Okay.
>> City manager, did you have a thought?

1030
01:22:00,239 --> 01:22:04,560
» Yeah,
>> I was going to I was going to say I have

1031
01:22:02,400 --> 01:22:08,560
uh first of all, three stories I think
is too high. I think it should be two

1032
01:22:06,239 --> 01:22:12,480
stories on signings if we're going to do
signage. But we we do have a process

1033
01:22:11,199 --> 01:22:16,159
we're going through with our planning
commission right now with the title 10

1034
01:22:13,840 --> 01:22:20,480
and title 11 and all that which that can
be addressed at that. Uh staff has shown

1035
01:22:18,800 --> 01:22:23,360
us a way or shown this applicant a way
to come in with a concept and we can

1036
01:22:21,920 --> 01:22:27,280
look at and say, "Yeah, we like that, we
don't like that." and he can move

1037
01:22:24,400 --> 01:22:31,360
forward with it uh rather quickly. I I'm
reluctant to just make an ordinance

1038
01:22:29,040 --> 01:22:34,800
change without looking at the whole city
and all the different zones that we have

1039
01:22:32,880 --> 01:22:39,199
in the city and so that we get it right
the first time and we don't keep

1040
01:22:36,639 --> 01:22:43,280
peacemealing this all the time. Uh you
know, you referred to the track record

1041
01:22:40,800 --> 01:22:46,400
of turning down signs. I don't recall
ever turning down a sign in the 20ome

1042
01:22:45,120 --> 01:22:48,960
years I've been here.
>> Have you seen Bob signs?

1043
01:22:47,600 --> 01:22:51,679
» I'm not sure where that track record's
coming from that he's concerned about

1044
01:22:50,560 --> 01:22:54,320
because
>> you I'm not talking about leaving the

1045
01:22:53,840 --> 01:22:57,360
meeting
>> whatever you're referring to.

1046
01:22:55,679 --> 01:23:00,560
» Well, you had referred that he was
reluctant to do things because of the

1047
01:22:58,800 --> 01:23:04,000
track record of getting things done with
the signage and

1048
01:23:01,679 --> 01:23:05,040
» it's not nothing to do with anyone but
him.

1049
01:23:04,480 --> 01:23:09,280
» Okay.
>> Well, what was the track record?

1050
01:23:07,600 --> 01:23:13,679
» Nothing to do with anyone else but him.
>> I wasn't referring to any past history

1051
01:23:11,120 --> 01:23:16,880
of any other just his situation.
>> Okay. So, he's had a track record with

1052
01:23:15,199 --> 01:23:20,320
other cities,
>> not this city.

1053
01:23:17,760 --> 01:23:23,280
» No, that is not true.
>> I think we'll just let staff handle it.

1054
01:23:22,000 --> 01:23:25,360
» Well, I'm Okay. I'm just saying I don't
recall ever turning down a sign. That's

1055
01:23:24,800 --> 01:23:28,800
all I'm saying.
>> No, I I never said that.

1056
01:23:27,199 --> 01:23:31,920
» Okay.
>> Civility.

1057
01:23:29,520 --> 01:23:35,760
» That's not a track record problem then.
>> I'm saying we're good. We're very pro

1058
01:23:33,920 --> 01:23:43,679
business. Yeah. I I believe.
>> Yeah. So, so we can give some direction.

1059
01:23:40,800 --> 01:23:48,960
This is the policy question.
Do we want to just focus on this one

1060
01:23:47,280 --> 01:23:52,159
application
to come in for a concept?

1061
01:23:50,719 --> 01:23:56,400
» Well, that's a separate thing. What I'm
presenting is a change to the ordinance.

1062
01:23:53,840 --> 01:23:59,760
This is I'm not
>> that's just the thing that brought my

1063
01:23:58,400 --> 01:24:01,600
attention to the ordinance.
>> I agree with you with that. It's just

1064
01:24:01,280 --> 01:24:05,520
that
>> I think staff can handle that situation

1065
01:24:05,120 --> 01:24:08,400
» just fine.
>> We have no problem change the ordinance

1066
01:24:07,120 --> 01:24:10,480
as we go through the process with
planning because that's what they're

1067
01:24:09,679 --> 01:24:13,520
there to do.
>> Yeah. If there are if that's already on

1068
01:24:12,000 --> 01:24:18,159
the boards to get and it'll get caught
up in that scoop. Sure. Absolutely.

1069
01:24:15,679 --> 01:24:23,920
» That so yeah, and that's where I'm
saying we're in that process. So

1070
01:24:21,679 --> 01:24:29,600
» that's a good idea. But this Yeah.
>> Okay. So stay with the process that but

1071
01:24:27,040 --> 01:24:33,760
do we
>> for the applicant let them know that

1072
01:24:31,280 --> 01:24:38,880
they can come in
>> staff will handle it.

1073
01:24:35,120 --> 01:24:43,040
» Okay. All right. So
>> next

1074
01:24:40,639 --> 01:24:46,800
» ju just just so we're clear uh madam
members of the council the your current

1075
01:24:44,639 --> 01:24:52,719
your current current ordinance and how
we would uh approach administration of

1076
01:24:49,440 --> 01:24:57,120
this uh would be either what the
planning team has currently suggested to

1077
01:24:55,040 --> 01:25:02,719
the applicant which is come in for a
concept review uh that would would would

1078
01:24:59,920 --> 01:25:08,560
then necessitate the fees and escrow
that we discussed. Um uh an alternative

1079
01:25:06,320 --> 01:25:12,880
that council member Keley did suggest
tonight and I just want to make sure

1080
01:25:09,600 --> 01:25:18,159
that we're we're clear would be a uh
really at the end of the day and Dan

1081
01:25:15,040 --> 01:25:24,639
explained this well uh but as I
understand it uh the the your current

1082
01:25:21,679 --> 01:25:30,639
ordinance current city regulations
uh the TOD is the only zoning district

1083
01:25:28,719 --> 01:25:36,960
where this particular issue would
prohibit uh top of building signage.

1084
01:25:33,679 --> 01:25:42,480
age. So a a potential
shorter term opportunity would be deal

1085
01:25:40,719 --> 01:25:47,120
with that issue. If a majority of the
council wishes to change policy

1086
01:25:44,880 --> 01:25:52,960
direction, deal with that issue, which
then would expedite the process and

1087
01:25:49,840 --> 01:25:58,239
eliminate the need for a concept review.
Now, that would be outside of what I

1088
01:25:56,159 --> 01:26:01,120
could do administratively, right? And
that would require city council

1089
01:25:59,600 --> 01:26:04,480
direction tonight. So, I just want to
make sure that we're all on the same

1090
01:26:02,719 --> 01:26:08,880
page when it when it comes to the most
efficient and effective way through what

1091
01:26:07,040 --> 01:26:14,320
council member Keely has raised tonight.
I I think I'm hearing general support of

1092
01:26:12,159 --> 01:26:16,400
the city council to
>> Yeah. So, you're

1093
01:26:14,960 --> 01:26:21,920
» I like the second thing you said.
>> Yeah. supportive of

1094
01:26:19,440 --> 01:26:25,600
looking at the ordinance amendment for
>> simple change

1095
01:26:22,560 --> 01:26:29,040
» just the tod right itself
we would narrowly have the council

1096
01:26:27,679 --> 01:26:34,320
address
>> the the the tod the the the narrow topic

1097
01:26:32,560 --> 01:26:38,960
and then I've also heard the direction
from the council that as part of the

1098
01:26:36,480 --> 01:26:42,800
plan title 10 and title 11 process we
want to look holistically at the issue

1099
01:26:40,800 --> 01:26:46,320
of signage I need to talk to our team
more about what that looks like to be

1100
01:26:44,320 --> 01:26:49,760
very honest with you there are many
priorities ities that are going to come

1101
01:26:47,679 --> 01:26:54,400
up through that review process following
the comprehensive plan and we'll have to

1102
01:26:51,920 --> 01:26:56,560
talk capacity timing.
>> Yeah.

1103
01:26:54,800 --> 01:26:59,760
» Conversations with council to make sure
that we're looking at the nuance.

1104
01:26:58,320 --> 01:27:04,400
Council member Gustoson, you brought up
a good a good point. There are

1105
01:27:01,600 --> 01:27:08,320
» there are a number of factors uh across
zoning districts that that would

1106
01:27:06,320 --> 01:27:12,560
potentially need to be dealt with and we
can mark that for mayor to your

1107
01:27:10,639 --> 01:27:16,320
suggestion other suggestion the the
longer term future solution if that's if

1108
01:27:14,800 --> 01:27:20,320
that's the desire of the council. Again,
I don't want to get ahead of the

1109
01:27:18,560 --> 01:27:24,400
majority of the council here, but just
looking for clarity and efficient and

1110
01:27:22,159 --> 01:27:28,239
effective outcomes based on where I
think I'm hearing the majority of you

1111
01:27:26,639 --> 01:27:32,159
are are talking from.
>> Yeah.

1112
01:27:28,800 --> 01:27:33,120
» So, to first part and second part.
>> Yeah.

1113
01:27:32,560 --> 01:27:39,199
» Yes.
>> Do do the comprehensive sign ordinance

1114
01:27:36,480 --> 01:27:44,480
review with with everything that's going
on with title 10 and 11

1115
01:27:41,679 --> 01:27:49,840
» which separately from just the to as a
carve out because That's yeah,

1116
01:27:48,239 --> 01:27:52,719
we can do that real quick and easy.
>> And that's Yeah. And that's what I'm

1117
01:27:51,760 --> 01:27:57,360
saying.
>> Address this item.

1118
01:27:55,120 --> 01:28:00,639
» Okay. Again, I didn't want to get I
don't want to get in the middle of the

1119
01:27:58,320 --> 01:28:03,199
council's policy discussion here. I just
>> You're just clarifying.

1120
01:28:01,760 --> 01:28:07,120
» You offered a fast lane. You know, if
you've been to Valley Fair, there's a

1121
01:28:04,480 --> 01:28:09,520
fast lane. We're to the fast lane and
let the other the whole rest of it take

1122
01:28:08,960 --> 01:28:16,159
the
>> And that's what I said at the beginning.

1123
01:28:11,440 --> 01:28:22,000
Let's deal with this so it it expedites
the desire of the applicant. Deal with

1124
01:28:19,520 --> 01:28:25,920
the heart of the city, the city with the
to and scoop up the everything else.

1125
01:28:25,679 --> 01:28:29,679
» Yep.
>> Yeah, I think that's what he said. Yep.

1126
01:28:27,520 --> 01:28:34,400
I'm That's sounds great.
>> Okay. And that's

1127
01:28:33,040 --> 01:28:37,600
» Let's back up a minute here.
>> It's

1128
01:28:34,880 --> 01:28:40,400
» so we've got lane too fast.
>> We've got heart of the city. We're just

1129
01:28:39,040 --> 01:28:44,639
talking.
>> So you remember that the heart of the

1130
01:28:42,159 --> 01:28:51,360
city is now the whole city.
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's no longer HOC1 and

1131
01:28:47,840 --> 01:28:54,320
HOC2. The whole thing has been
>> identified as a transit oriented

1132
01:28:53,600 --> 01:28:58,560
development.
>> We're going to tot it.

1133
01:28:55,600 --> 01:29:01,760
» Um I'm fine with that. I again I didn't
speak to this because I don't have any

1134
01:28:59,600 --> 01:29:06,159
background or understanding of that. I
didn't even know we had that restriction

1135
01:29:03,120 --> 01:29:08,960
in our to um and it's kind of seems
silly that we do now that I'm aware of

1136
01:29:08,000 --> 01:29:14,239
it. So,
>> well, so

1137
01:29:11,040 --> 01:29:18,080
» because we have Hey, there's there's a
grand marketplace

1138
01:29:16,000 --> 01:29:20,800
» and there is a and there's a grand
market.

1139
01:29:18,880 --> 01:29:26,159
» I mean, I go down the road, you see the
building where part of the city dental

1140
01:29:22,320 --> 01:29:28,960
is uh old national bank and that looks
great there. I don't know why we

1141
01:29:27,440 --> 01:29:31,040
couldn't replicate that on Gate
building.

1142
01:29:29,360 --> 01:29:35,679
» You got First National Bank and you also
have the Ames Center. Madam, mayor,

1143
01:29:33,600 --> 01:29:38,400
members of the council, um, in spite of
my attempt to be efficient and

1144
01:29:37,040 --> 01:29:40,800
effective, it looks like Jeff might have
a question that I want to make sure gets

1145
01:29:40,000 --> 01:29:43,840
asked.
>> Just mayor and council. [laughter]

1146
01:29:42,880 --> 01:29:47,920
» Nope.
>> I am now going to listen to Jeff.

1147
01:29:45,520 --> 01:29:52,880
» This is a me problem.
>> Again, just for Yeah, just for clarity.

1148
01:29:50,560 --> 01:29:56,800
» Um, I understand that the the discussion
is happening, you know, doing a targeted

1149
01:29:55,280 --> 01:30:01,040
amendment for the TOD district. Just to
clarify, that is for rooftop wall

1150
01:29:58,960 --> 01:30:04,239
signage for office and commercial
buildings within the to district, not a

1151
01:30:02,880 --> 01:30:07,440
comprehensive review of the todd
district.

1152
01:30:05,120 --> 01:30:11,360
» Correct. The the comprehensive is on
your process.

1153
01:30:08,639 --> 01:30:18,080
» Yeah. The comprehensive one is on the
process that's going on right now with

1154
01:30:14,960 --> 01:30:20,239
phase two of the zoning ordinance. Phase
two of the zoning

1155
01:30:19,040 --> 01:30:23,120
» and that's why we have expert
professional staff that aren't me.

1156
01:30:22,152 --> 01:30:24,639
[laughter] So, thank you, ma'am.
>> Okay.

1157
01:30:23,600 --> 01:30:26,639
» No, that's good.
>> Okay. Everybody,

1158
01:30:25,600 --> 01:30:29,199
» I think that's the only thing we missed
when we did that to thing a few years

1159
01:30:28,159 --> 01:30:32,560
ago is just this.
>> Okay.

1160
01:30:30,000 --> 01:30:37,120
» Everybody understand? We're just dealing
with the amendment for this applicant

1161
01:30:36,080 --> 01:30:42,000
in the to
>> Yep.

1162
01:30:38,880 --> 01:30:49,760
» Everything else is
on your uh comprehensive view of um our

1163
01:30:46,159 --> 01:30:54,639
zoning ordinance second phase. Okay,
everybody on board? Okay, we're moving

1164
01:30:52,560 --> 01:31:00,320
on.
Um, and now

1165
01:30:58,080 --> 01:31:03,600
Michelle, you want to schedule a meeting
to canvas the primary?

1166
01:31:02,000 --> 01:31:12,560
» Yes. Thank you, madame mayor, city
council. We um do have a city primary on

1167
01:31:07,679 --> 01:31:17,840
the um primary election August 11th. And
so we will need to schedule a special

1168
01:31:14,639 --> 01:31:23,760
meeting to canvas those results. uh the
statute is not very flexible whereas it

1169
01:31:21,520 --> 01:31:29,600
says we are required to do it three days
after which makes it August 14th

1170
01:31:28,080 --> 01:31:32,960
and um
>> so we have to do it 12th 13th or 14th

1171
01:31:32,080 --> 01:31:35,520
» the 14th
>> just the 14th

1172
01:31:34,239 --> 01:31:38,239
» the statute also
>> just telling us we have to be here on

1173
01:31:36,639 --> 01:31:43,199
the 14th is what you're telling us
>> the statute says

1174
01:31:40,239 --> 01:31:47,760
» the statute says that it we can do it on
the 13th if the county allows us to and

1175
01:31:45,679 --> 01:31:50,239
we tried to do that one time and it was
two two days is just too fast of a

1176
01:31:49,440 --> 01:31:54,000
turnaround.
>> So you're saying the 14th. Is everybody

1177
01:31:52,560 --> 01:31:57,440
okay on the 14th?
>> Mon Monday the 14th. [clears throat]

1178
01:31:55,840 --> 01:32:00,320
» No, it's Friday the 14th.
>> August 14th.

1179
01:31:58,320 --> 01:32:02,719
» August. Sorry.
>> August the 14th

1180
01:32:01,920 --> 01:32:07,600
» at 5.
>> Yeah, go for it. I won't be here.

1181
01:32:05,643 --> 01:32:12,320
[laughter]
>> It can be it can be at noon. It can be

1182
01:32:10,719 --> 01:32:13,199
» Yeah, I'm good any time of day on that
day.

1183
01:32:12,719 --> 01:32:21,120
» Okay.
>> Okay. So, uh, Vince and Dan G. Dan K,

1184
01:32:20,080 --> 01:32:22,719
» uh, the 14th.
>> Yeah.

1185
01:32:21,360 --> 01:32:26,400
» What time you want to do it?
>> Do you want to do line? Um, noon or

1186
01:32:25,520 --> 01:32:28,320
» It takes 10 minutes.
>> Takes 10 minutes.

1187
01:32:26,960 --> 01:32:29,120
» Yeah. Oh, noon's fine.
>> Noon.

1188
01:32:28,800 --> 01:32:31,360
» Noon.
>> Noon. Sounds good.

1189
01:32:30,159 --> 01:32:37,600
» Okay.
>> Okay. Very good. Okay. With that then,

1190
01:32:35,280 --> 01:32:43,679
um, reports, Vince?
>> No reports. Oh, come uh watch uh Never

1191
01:32:41,840 --> 01:32:46,159
mind. We're good. [cough] Oh,
>> what was that?

1192
01:32:44,400 --> 01:32:50,960
» I was going to put out a word for
Burnsville. Burnsville is hosting the

1193
01:32:48,159 --> 01:32:54,480
MBL state baseball tournament at Sue
Fisher

1194
01:32:52,719 --> 01:32:58,800
and Savage Community Fields this
weekend. So

1195
01:32:57,040 --> 01:33:01,280
10A, it's very specific, but
>> yeah,

1196
01:32:59,440 --> 01:33:05,520
» experience Burnsville cancelled their
meeting on Thursday. Our next meeting

1197
01:33:02,880 --> 01:33:08,639
will be in August.
Okay, Carol,

1198
01:33:07,760 --> 01:33:12,040
» Dad,
>> I have a small

1199
01:33:13,360 --> 01:33:18,239
you don't have to listen. [laughter]
>> Metro Cities Transportation General

1200
01:33:16,320 --> 01:33:22,080
Government starts Monday the 27th. All
of us that are on assigned committees

1201
01:33:19,840 --> 01:33:25,679
will start probably that week if not
before. Uh National League of Cities

1202
01:33:24,239 --> 01:33:30,080
held their summer leadership conference
in Louisville, Kentucky. It's about a

1203
01:33:27,600 --> 01:33:34,480
three and a half day event. Um, it's
held at the current president's uh

1204
01:33:32,159 --> 01:33:38,080
hometown which uh he's a council member
in Louisville. Louisville if as I

1205
01:33:37,679 --> 01:33:41,840
learned
>> actually that's how they say it.

1206
01:33:39,360 --> 01:33:46,239
» Uh just uh sitting on the executive
committee we talked about the 2027

1207
01:33:43,440 --> 01:33:51,679
budget and the challenges um membership
growth u managing cost. There's a giant

1208
01:33:49,440 --> 01:33:55,520
reduction in federal grants which is uh
going to have a corresponding reduction

1209
01:33:53,120 --> 01:34:02,239
in staff because a lot of staff is there
to um write and nurture grants. Um we

1210
01:34:00,239 --> 01:34:06,159
talked about the office of uh management
budgets proposed grant changes which is

1211
01:34:04,159 --> 01:34:10,320
there's out it's a public uh comment
period right now which is has some

1212
01:34:08,080 --> 01:34:16,239
significant impacts. We also discussed
the success of the road to housing act

1213
01:34:13,920 --> 01:34:20,639
um and the large effort by NLC's
lobbying and and membership cities

1214
01:34:18,159 --> 01:34:25,280
across the country. Um we also talked
about u the new I think it's A250 it's

1215
01:34:23,679 --> 01:34:29,920
it's probably not that [cough] it's
signing the Declaration of Independence.

1216
01:34:27,199 --> 01:34:35,199
It's a it's a website where you can go
on and I'll I can share the QR code

1217
01:34:32,880 --> 01:34:40,800
where you can actually sign on behalf of
your city. All of us can um essentially

1218
01:34:38,960 --> 01:34:45,120
reaffirming the Declaration of
Independence. So, it's a effort that's

1219
01:34:42,880 --> 01:34:47,600
going across the country uh through the
National League of City.

1220
01:34:46,080 --> 01:34:50,000
» So, my signature wasn't good enough the
first time?

1221
01:34:48,400 --> 01:34:55,760
» No, it wasn't big enough. We need to do
it larger. Um, and then they released

1222
01:34:52,960 --> 01:35:00,800
the uh the 2026 state of the cities
report which uh which was a recorded

1223
01:34:57,920 --> 01:35:05,760
presentation and uh it included a panel
which included Mayor Kim Norton from

1224
01:35:02,560 --> 01:35:10,639
Rochester uh who I I sat with and
presented to the League of Minnesota

1225
01:35:07,840 --> 01:35:21,920
Cities board earlier this year on the
civility um uh deal. So the sorry um the

1226
01:35:18,000 --> 01:35:26,080
civility index and etc. So uh she was
there with uh a mayor from a really

1227
01:35:24,320 --> 01:35:30,239
small really small like a couple
thousand people suburb of Birmingham

1228
01:35:27,920 --> 01:35:34,320
Birmingham Alabama. So we had fairly
goodsized city and a really small city

1229
01:35:32,320 --> 01:35:37,679
represented u talking about all the
issues which I'll run through them very

1230
01:35:35,679 --> 01:35:41,920
quickly. Number one across the country
economic growth was the first priority

1231
01:35:39,920 --> 01:35:47,360
on city's minds. Infrastructure and
housing are more are the most critical.

1232
01:35:45,040 --> 01:35:56,000
uh concerns for an infrastructure cliff
with ARPA and IIGJA in the uh sorry uh

1233
01:35:53,120 --> 01:35:59,760
infrastructure investments act uh are
ending and cities expect negative impact

1234
01:35:58,000 --> 01:36:04,639
on infrastructure investment. Then of
course housing affordability is a

1235
01:36:02,480 --> 01:36:10,000
widespread structural issue for every
city across the country and public

1236
01:36:06,560 --> 01:36:13,760
safety strategies continue to evolve. Uh
it was a very interesting report. Uh

1237
01:36:11,760 --> 01:36:19,040
it's out and available on their website.
And then lastly, the suburban municipal

1238
01:36:16,080 --> 01:36:23,840
council got together uh aka first tier
suburbs uh which is uh one of the

1239
01:36:21,760 --> 01:36:28,239
councils uh under the national league of
cities uh I've been a part of for many

1240
01:36:25,760 --> 01:36:32,320
years. I didn't I didn't join right away
because it said first year's suburbs and

1241
01:36:30,320 --> 01:36:36,400
we're a second tier. So I thought we
don't have a party we can join. And then

1242
01:36:34,320 --> 01:36:40,719
somebody told me just I mentioned it
rand randomly to a member of the the

1243
01:36:39,040 --> 01:36:44,960
lobbing staff and she said oh no that's
open to all suburbs. I went, "Good. We

1244
01:36:43,120 --> 01:36:49,280
need to rebrand that." That was [snorts]
four or five years ago, 5 years ago. We

1245
01:36:47,440 --> 01:36:52,800
finally got it done this year and it's
going to be called the Suburban

1246
01:36:50,800 --> 01:36:57,520
Municipal Council. And the reason it
couldn't be Suburban Cities Council is

1247
01:36:54,880 --> 01:37:01,199
that is the same acronym for small
cities council. So, they wanted a

1248
01:36:59,679 --> 01:37:05,840
separate acronym because they use that
structurally. And uh so I'm going to

1249
01:37:04,080 --> 01:37:10,320
refer to it and I told them I'm going to
always say it's the suburban cities

1250
01:37:07,199 --> 01:37:14,639
group council but suburban municipal
council that will become officially

1251
01:37:11,840 --> 01:37:21,679
effective at November's city summit
which is held in Nashville, Tennessee.

1252
01:37:18,719 --> 01:37:25,440
And we took a tour uh our group the
council members took a tour to a small

1253
01:37:24,080 --> 01:37:33,920
suburban town that's going through some
major um redevelopment. It's called uh

1254
01:37:30,560 --> 01:37:38,159
uh Jamestown, Kentucky.
And uh it was very we had the mayor

1255
01:37:35,840 --> 01:37:42,480
there who gave a a nice speech and and
their economic development director and

1256
01:37:40,719 --> 01:37:47,440
uh some other folks and and talked about
what they have going on. The one thing I

1257
01:37:44,239 --> 01:37:52,960
will I will say to in close, they have a
massive industrial park. When you look

1258
01:37:49,520 --> 01:37:59,440
at the map of their city limits, 40% of
the square miles

1259
01:37:55,600 --> 01:38:04,560
is is an industrial park. It's enormous
and of course it brings an enormous

1260
01:38:02,080 --> 01:38:10,960
amount of prosperity to the city. It's a
huge income source. What they use, they

1261
01:38:08,159 --> 01:38:16,080
don't have property taxes like we do.
They have an occupation tax. It's based

1262
01:38:13,840 --> 01:38:20,960
on your salary. It's like a an income
tax that goes locally. And that is a

1263
01:38:18,800 --> 01:38:25,920
very big part of Kucky's economic model
for cities is occupational tax. And

1264
01:38:23,360 --> 01:38:30,560
because they have that that largest
industrial park I've ever seen in any

1265
01:38:27,520 --> 01:38:35,119
city, certainly a city of that size, um
that provides a lot of financial support

1266
01:38:32,400 --> 01:38:39,760
for the city to operate. That's it.
Thank you.

1267
01:38:37,440 --> 01:38:42,920
» I won't give a USCM report.
>> Go ahead.

1268
01:38:43,040 --> 01:38:50,400
» Go ahead.
>> It's okay. Uh and there's nothing else.

1269
01:38:47,679 --> 01:38:55,920
Burnsville Savage meeting is cancelled.
Was supposed to be this Thursday. So,

1270
01:38:53,280 --> 01:38:58,880
but otherwise I know you need to go.
>> Oh my goodness.

1271
01:38:57,040 --> 01:39:03,199
» There is nothing else. Anything from
staff

1272
01:39:01,840 --> 01:39:07,320
with that? I did not.
>> We stand adjourned by acclamation.