Live.
Is it working?
Yeah, okay.
we'll call to order at 7:02.
If you'd join me with the Pledge of
Allegiance.
>> [clears throat]
» I pledge allegiance to the flag of the
United States of America, and to the
republic for which it stands, one nation
under God, indivisible, with liberty and
justice for all.
» Roll call.
» Mayor Andrew Hagen.
>> Here.
>> Mayor Pro Tem Melinda Walker.
>> Here.
>> Councilmember Jeremy Engel.
>> Present.
>> Councilmember Shawn Sherman.
>> Here.
>> Councilmember Jeff Key.
>> Here.
>> You have quorum.
>> It looks like we have a presentation
today for
a
lumber It's a
lumber yard sellers, right?
Um it's a pretty
good family business that's been in town
here for a little while. My
>> [screaming]
>> uh wife's been there quite a few times
and has reported back that it's a
pretty uh
amazing atmosphere, you know, um
some high-quality
people obviously you guys running that.
Um
it's it's pretty amazing that there's
like 5,000 businesses that sounds like
that were up against this particular
award and you guys
end up winning it. That's something to
tip your hat to. That's pretty awesome.
Um
Did anyone on the dais want to say
anything?
>> I just have a brief comment. Um
>> [snorts]
>> Eric and Megan I remember when you came
to planning commission. I know I was on
the planning commission you were talking
about bringing a wine bar.
And here you are
six, seven years later after that
initial meeting and
now you're really knocking it out out of
the park for being small business of the
year for ninth Assembly District. So, um
I've definitely partaken in uh
some of your wine and some of your uh
charcuterie, but really
uh I know
and speaking with some of my friends
living surrounding communities,
um
Lumberyard Cellars is now a landmark for
the city of Escalon. And so, and really
it all goes to both of your hard work
uh and dedication to not only to this
city, but
obviously to your family. Um and so,
thank you for making a really big impact
in our community. It's very much
appreciated.
Anyone else like to say anything?
>> Uh sure. Congratulations for being the
2026 Small Business of the Year for
California's ninth California's ninth
Assembly District. Um I've had the
um
pleasure of knowing Megan and her family
for a very long time. There's nothing
that you cannot achieve. You've had your
vision, you put put hard work to it, and
you have achieved great things. Um and
thank you for bringing that and keeping
that in the town of Escalon. So,
congratulations to you.
>> So, I'm just going to read this
certificate we have from the city for
you.
Um
in recognition of being named the 2026
Small Business of the year of the year
for California's ninth Assembly
District. Um this was uh founded by
Derek and
Megan Webb. Uh The Lumberyard Cellars
has become a welcoming gathering place
in the heart of Escalon. I always hear
great things about what you have going
on there.
Um
Through its commitment to quality
hospitality community events and local
product
Lumberyard
Sellers is exemplified the
entrepreneurial spirit and community
pride that makes Escalon special.
This Escalon City Council probably
congratulates the Lumberyard Sellers on
this distinguished honor and express its
sincere appreciation for its positive
contributions to to the Escalon
community. So want to say thank you and
give you a round of applause at least.
>> [applause]
>> Would you either one of you like to come
up or the little one?
Come up and give a speech here or say
something?
» Yeah, we just want to thank the city of
Escalon for all the support and
continued support as we continue moving
on through business and you know, it's
been a fun 5 years and
just look forward to continued success
in Escalon and bringing more people to
the community. So
thank you.
» [snorts]
>> Do you want to say something?
>> No.
>> [laughter]
[music]
» Maybe that's a seller were they're
partying, huh?
>> [laughter]
[applause]
» So, we'll move on to the consent
calendar.
Uh Mr. Mayor, I'd like to abstain from
item number two and pull number five.
>> And pull number five, okay.
Uh anyone else?
Okay. In um
in the audience, anyone want to pull any
of these?
Okay. Anyone online?
>> No hands raised.
>> Okay. We'll bring it back to the dais.
Um you want to humor a motion on the
others?
>> Yeah, I'll motion to approve uh
consent uh
items uh
two through four.
>> Okay.
We have a second?
>> I'll second.
>> Okay. All in favor, say I.
>> I.
>> All approve um
sorry sorry. All uh against, say nay.
No? Okay.
So, we'll go to five.
>> Yeah.
>> What's your concern?
>> I have no concern. Actually, quite the
opposite. Um
I have been
talking about this for the last
three plus years, almost four years.
Um
and I really want to give major props to
uh Jaylen and to uh Justin
and the city team for actually
um
really taking to heart uh the potential
for design build projects. Uh it is the
future of delivering both private and
public construction projects um
throughout the world, in particular in
California,
um
and I I live in this world every day.
And um if you go back and you look at
historical records,
um since
1957, the the city has spent an
inordinate an amount of money on design
fees.
And the beauty of design-build is that
now it's one contract. Uh for those of
you that don't know design-build,
there's one legal contract, they're one
legal entity. Designer and the builder
are the same legal entity, which
actually uh allows for
more streamlined project projects, more
streamlined processes.
And
um
like I said, the design-build is uh the
way of the future.
And so, uh kudos for uh
adopting this conflict-of-interest
policy, and I look forward to uh future
design-build projects for the city of
Escondido.
So, thank you.
» Um anyone else like to make a statement
up here?
Since it's pulled, anyone in the
audience want to make a statement?
No? We'll bring it back to online.
>> With that, I move to approve consent out
calendar item number five.
>> Okay. Do we have a second?
>> Second.
>> All in favor, say aye.
>> Aye.
>> All opposed, say nay.
Okay.
We'll go on to staff communications. Uh
We'll start with Chief Far, with Okay.
» [snorts]
» So, July was uh fairly uneventful. There
was a train versus pedestrian crash on
uh the BNSF tracks over by the
or pier, and then we also had park feet.
was fairly uneventful. We had
one arrest uh on night one for public
intoxication and then on night two a
woman who
attempted to get in the VIA with a fake
ID.
But other than that, not really a whole
lot.
A lot to speak of.
Officer Meza and Officer Gunter were
tied with the most arrests with seven
and Officer Meza led the department in
citations with 23.
>> Good work. Um question for you. Maybe
just a brain uh storm.
Is there Do you think these train
getting hit by the train scenario is
more like someone giving up on life or
we having accidents you think?
Like is there some Is there some way we
can potentially
you know, mitigate that or do you think
it's just it is what it is?
>> Uh
we've had in the last
two years I want to say the last two or
last two years I think we had three in
the last two years.
>> Yeah.
>> And so
two of them
seem like accidents. Uh one of them
seemed like it might not be as far as it
could be a possible intentional act. Um
so I'm not necessarily certain what the
increase is, but yeah, I've
>> Mhm.
>> been here 21 years and the last three
years we've had more than my entire
previous career combined.
>> Seems like a weird yeah, some sort of a
I don't know how you necessarily fix
that or not, but just something maybe
brainstorm and
maybe in the audience if you have any
ideas.
Anyways, that was my thought on it.
>> Well, and and Mr. Mayor, to that point,
you know, people always think um
Yes, obviously these victims um
no one deserves to lose their life, but
we also have to take into account uh the
rail road crews
because the train is only going one
direction. The train can't stop.
And so, there are two victims and every
or possibly [clears throat]
three victims and every incident if you
take into account the the train crews as
well. So, it's a definitely a horrible
problem all the way around. And for our
police officers and first responders
they have to
deal with that as well. So,
it's not a pleasant situation.
>> Um
hats off to you for having to deal with
that, guys.
Both public works as well.
Um
any other questions for Chief?
Uh we'll go to
uh public works.
>> Uh nothing for public works tonight
unless you have any questions.
>> Any questions for public works?
>> Sure. What's up with VSS?
>> They're completed at this point. So,
that's what we're sticking with.
>> On
>> Sir.
>> And what's the status of AT&T?
>> And they're [clears throat] going to be
we're getting ready to resubmit another
permit going through the conditions that
we had met with them. So, hopefully here
in the next week they'll get start back
up, but there'll be very strict rules on
what they can and can't do.
Um we'll have more inspectors on-site
provided by AT&T and just a lot more
babysitting.
>> And will the when are they now
anticipating being done and complete as
well?
>> There's no anticipation date at the
moment just because we haven't gave them
the the permit to go ahead and proceed.
I don't think it's going to be a whole
lot of time. Should be about a month
process once they get going as far as
rehabilitating everything. So, hopefully
we can get them in and out of here
quick.
>> Yeah.
>> Just to fill in the gaps a little bit
there. Um
I think they did hit a a third water
line recently and and we had some
significant questions on how and whether
they were doing some potholing. Um so,
we we stopped the job. We met with them.
Um they brought some facts to it, but uh
we have implemented some new rules.
We're reviewing those rules right now.
Um reviewing their response to the rules
that we've established and we will
reissue um the permit when, you know,
we're comfortable that they will address
things as as we see fit. Um they have
been um positive about the changes and,
you know, their
approach moving forward, which is a good
sign. Um but we will we will stay on it
to ensure we protect the infrastructure
of the city.
» Any other questions?
Back to city manager.
Or Trevin, sorry.
>> Yeah, sorry. I'm over here this time,
so.
>> [laughter]
>> Thank you. I'll start with the
recreation update. Um we've had a great
um registration for flag football, so
that continues to be a strong program.
And summer recreation programming
continues to to show strong
participation with soccer. Um we did
move the date for evaluations, so if
you're a parent listening, just know
that we're going to move that closer to
the draft date to accommodate one of the
high school's schedules.
Um for adult soccer, this is a new
program that the city has put on, as
you're aware. And one of the hurdles is
with a new program, you don't you don't
really know if you're going to get
enough participation. So, please report
that we got three teams this year, which
is enough to have a league, to have a
program, and for everybody to have some
fun. So, we we passed that hurdle as a
community and we'll report back um mid
midway through the league to report how
it's going.
Um and then for the community center, we
were working with someone to lease the
kitchen space. This was a new venture
for the city to try and use the
commercial kitchen more often and help
uh cut the cottage food industry or
someone who's working out of their house
be able to utilize the the kitchen
there. Um it does require them to carry
their own insurance um liability. Um so,
if there's anyone else out there that is
willing to do that and wants to work
with us, just let me know. Happy to work
with them to help them get that set up.
The first person that originally wanted
to use it
um hasn't gotten back in touch with us.
It seems the insurance might have been
something holding them back or might
take them more time to do. So, we're
available. We got all the kinks worked
out, all the application stuff smoothed
out. So, we're now ready to go. We just
need someone to test the process with
us.
>> Okay.
>> Um and for development services, um we
continue to see
uh normal permit activity.
Um nothing crazy.
Um
and we do have an item on tonight where
we'll talk a little bit more about that.
So, that's that's all I have for
tonight. Thank you.
>> Okay.
Any questions for Trevor?
>> I've got one. Is there anyone that may
have applied for our grants that may be
interested in using that kitchen space?
Somebody that may be a good fit from
there?
Have you run run down that list, I
guess, is the uh the real question that
I'm asking?
>> Yeah, I know. It's a great question. We
can certainly do that. Um good timing to
ask that question to them because we
just asked them for their mandatory
6-month update. So, we'll be hosting uh
meetings with them to touch base and any
of them that do food prep, we'll make
sure to let them
>> Not necessarily one of the recipients,
but you know, any of the applicants
even. You know, they're they're all
looking for, you know, expansion. You
know, that's a good way for a food
service to expand without um
very aggressive cost, I would think. So.
>> Yeah. Makes sense.
» All right. Any other questions?
No. We'll go back to city manager.
>> Nothing further.
>> Okay.
Any questions for city manager?
Questions for Frank?
No?
>> Okay. We'll take it out to the audience.
Uh any questions for staff at all?
No? Online?
» Nothing online.
All right, we'll bring it back
to matters presented from the audience.
Excuse me. [clears throat] The public
may comment on any matter not listed on
the agenda that is within the city of Escalon subject matter
jurisdiction. Members of the public may
address the city council on any agenda
item when that item is called for
consideration. Each speaker is limited
to 5 minutes and unused time may not be
transferred to another speaker. Speakers
may provide their name and address for
the record but are not required to do
so. Under state law, the city council
generally may not discuss or take action
on matters that are not listed on the
agenda
except to provide a brief response. If
further action is warranted, the matter
may be referred to staff or placed on a
future agenda. The mayor has discretion
to determine whether a matter is within
the city's subject matter jurisdiction.
That being said, we have any matters
from the audience?
» Yes, good afternoon everybody. Uh my
name is Michael Masuda. I came here to
introduce myself this evening. I'm
running for Congress in the California
5th Congressional District. Oh, I I uh I
live in Riverbank, so just across the
river.
Um I actually grew up in Amador County.
I remember coming down this way in the
preseason for baseball and basketball uh
to play against Escalon High School. You
all always had a good teams over here
and so I'm hoping that that's continued
on. Um I went to after I graduated from
high school, I went to college at Cal
Poly in San Luis Obispo for a degree in electrical engineering. And I took
that out uh to the Washington D.C. area
to start a career over there with my
wife uh working in defense research. And
I made my way into the federal
government working as a public servant
at the State Department. And uh now I
came back home to California to run for
Congress to be close to my family. I got
two kids in tow with me since coming
back. I've got a 4-year-old and a
2-year-old. And I'm very focused on
building communities, a state, a country
that
my kids have an opportunity where
they're treated fairly, where they're
treated with respect. And that's
something that all of our kids can have
for them.
I really believe that
these roles are focused on service and
that it's actually service to all of you
and all the members of the community.
I am not going to be the one that tells
you all how to do your job, right?
That's not what the a congressman is
supposed to do.
I really want to work with you all to
understand what city of Escalon needs
and how I can be of service to all of
you at the federal level.
I know the federal government doesn't
have all the answers and it shouldn't
have all the answers. But there's a lot
of resources and things that need to
happen at the federal level that can
make things much easier and can help
address some of the challenges that you
all are facing in this community.
So I'm here today to just introduce
myself. Going forward, I would love to
sit down with with any all of you at
some point individually, of course,
and other members from the community to
understand what are some of the
challenges that you all are facing and
what you're looking for in your next
congressman.
I did want to mention that
Escalon and this portion of San Joaquin
County are has been added to the fifth
district
with the redistricting in in California
with Prop 50. It is one of 12 counties
either in whole or in part that now make
up the fifth district. It goes all the
way to the Nevada border from Alpine
County down to Death Valley in Inyo
County. It covers this whole swath of
the Sierra Nevada from Eldorado all the
way down to Fresno County and it touches
the Central Valley here in Stanislaus
County and Madera County and also in
Fresno County. This district is the size
of West Virginia. And so
it's very easy, I think, for a or
it makes it very difficult to get around
at times. But, I firmly believe that
showing up, talking with folks,
listening, trying to understand
challenges, and trying to go to work on
those challenges is what this job is all
about. So, as we move forward, I will
continue to be available to you. I have
passed out one business card already,
but I'll make sure that you have my
contact information. I also wanted to
invite all of you and any members from
the community that are here or watching
online. We are doing a town hall in
Oakdale on the 11th of September at the
senior center there.
I really want to bring in a lot of
communities,
Escalon, Riverbank, of course Oakdale
and Knights Ferry to to come and talk,
share your share your your thoughts, ask
your questions. It's going to be from
6:00 to 8:00 and the whole community,
bring your kids, everybody is welcome to
be part of this.
So,
if there are any questions at any point,
you can go to my website votemasuda.com.
There's an email on there or you know,
I'll be sticking around here for a
little while to to chat after after the
meeting. So, thank you so much for your
time. I really appreciate it.
>> Thank you as well.
A breath a breath of fresh air to
actually see a congressman here.
Um
So, thank you.
>> Oh.
Anyone else have a There we go.
>> Of course.
Um first of all,
I have a
almost 4-year-old granddaughter that is
going to have a
lemonade stand tomorrow specifically for
city workers.
And it's going to be from noon to 1:00
and her price is free to city workers.
So, they need to come and
say hello to her. She especially would
like to see the street sweeper.
>> [laughter]
>> Uh anyway,
>> Sure. Sure.
>> All right. All right. Public work and our officers too cuz she got to
visit the
outside you know the the foyer of the
police department last week and she
thought that was the greatest thing. So
maybe we can work on her saying
something else. Anyway, she
[clears throat] just thought that was
great. So if you all would just come
humor her, she made homemade lemonade
from softest lemons and with honey and
water. So you know, it's kind of
healthy.
>> Well, what time
>> little tart.
>> [laughter]
>> What's your What's your um What time?
>> Noon to 1.
Well, she'll be Are you kidding? If you
knock on the door, she'll be there. So
>> [laughter]
>> I mean you know, she's not going to turn
you away.
Oh, anyway, she's she's cute. Oh.
>> Location, somebody asked.
>> On Sacramento Street?
Can't miss us. You
won't miss us.
A big white house. Big white house,
flagpole.
No line.
>> Street.
>> Right in front of the high school, three
houses down, right?
>> It's 1325 Sacramento.
>> All right. If you're anybody else other
than in the city and and same place and our police officers, well you'll
have to pay her. Sorry, just saying.
Okay.
Um
I love history. You all know that. I
love There's There's three subjects that
you know really greatly Well, there's
many subjects that greatly I love as my
children and grandchildren all say, "Oh,
I say Oh, that's my favorite." And
they're like, "They're all your
favorites." Well, yeah, they are. So
one of them though is history. And going
back to the roots and going back to our
roots and the blessings of our country,
the blessings of our state, the
blessings of our city.
Um
I'm pretty sure the majority of the
people in this room have no idea that
there is only one state in the United
States of America whose Constitution
mentions and asks for the blessing of
almighty God. Any guesses as to what
state that would be? It'll shock you.
It's ours.
It's our state and our preamble.
It appeals to almighty God for blessing
and to keep us on the straight and
narrow. I think we could maybe start
praying that.
Um
So, I wanted to go back and look at
something that I thought was really a
really interesting. And the first
Continental Congress in um September
7th, 1774. You know, we just had our
250th anniversary, right? Very short.
It's really short. It'll be less than my
5 minutes, I promise.
Um So, the first prayer of the
Continental Congress and I thought it
could
benefit us.
It says, "Oh Lord, our heavenly Father,
high and mighty King of kings and Lord
of lords, who dost from thy throne" It's
old English.
"Behold all the dwellers on earth and
reignest with power supreme and
uncontrolled over all the kingdoms,
empires, and governments. Look down in
mercy." I think we could use that. "We
beseech thee on these our American
states who have fled to thee from the
rod of thy oppressor and thrown
themselves on thy gracious protection,
desiring to be henceforth dependent only
on thee.
And to thee, you,
have they appealed
for the righteousness of their cause. To
thee do they now look up for that
countenance and support which thou only
canst give.
Take them therefore, heavenly Father,
under thy nurturing care. Give them
wisdom and counsel.
We're a council, right?
I pray wisdom for you guys. And valor in
the field. Defeat the malicious designs
of our cruel adversaries. Convince them
of the unrighteousness of their cause.
And if they persist in their sanguinary
purposes
of own unerring justice sounding in
their hearts, constrain them to drop the
weapons of war from their unnerved hands
in the day of battle. Be thou present,
oh God of wisdom, and direct the
councils of this honorable assembly. I'm
hoping this is an honorable assembly. I
know you all pretty well. I think you
are.
Enable them to settle things on the best
and surest foundation
that the scene of blood may be speedily
that order, harmony, and peace may be
effectively restored, and truth and
justice, religion and piety prevail and
flourish amongst the people.
Preserve the health of their bodies, and
I would like to extend that to this
body,
and vigor of their minds. Shower down on
them the millions they here represent.
Okay, well, Escalante's maybe only a few
thousand, but that's okay.
Such temporal blessings as thou seest
expedient for them in this world, and
crown them with everlasting glory in the
world to come. And all of this we ask in
the name to the merits of Jesus Christ,
son and our savior. Amen. That was
Reverend Jacob Duché, rector of Christ
Church on September 7th, 1774.
But you know, those words still ring
true.
And once they're released into the
atmosphere and the frequency, oh, I took
more than my 5 minutes, sorry. Um,
they still permeate, so
may you all have wisdom tonight.
>> Thank you.
for the kind words.
Um, anyone else like to say anything?
» Good evening.
Um, I'm happy to be here, especially in
Escalante.
My wife and I just moved here in uh
January of 2024, and I'm and she is
absolutely thrilled to be here.
It's the best little community ever, so
I hope everyone here appreciates what
you have, cuz it's awesome.
Uh, the other thing I wanted to talk to
you about, and by the way, my name is
Travis Clement, and my wife is Connie
Clement. We live over here in uh
Country Wood Estates. So, Country Wood
Estates is what I wanted to ask you
about, and it's the assessment.
And I was wondering, has anyone ever
tried to do this assessment increase
since it was originally put into place?
Why did it get turned down?
Uh,
you know, do you have any insight on
that?
» You want to give a brief overview? I question real quick?
Are Are you asking about the park
improvements or are you talking about
the annual
>> park improvements, the lighting,
uh fix-ups and stuff that's needed, the
fence that's
falling apart.
>> You need to just call timeout cuz we
will get into that in the public
hearing.
>> Oh, okay.
>> next agenda item.
>> Sounds all right. That's fair.
>> That's Bill Eltara, though.
>> I think we're probably okay to go ahead
and
>> Just give a brief response.
>> Yeah, if he's talking about the park,
the Swanson Park uh improvement, then
that was voted on prior.
Assume you're talking about the Yeah,
okay.
>> Okay, my apologies. I thought you were
talking about the overall assessment.
>> No, no, just for the country club.
>> Um actually, that same neighborhood had,
I think,
2013, 2014 had voted in to install the
playground that is now there. So, they
had gone through that process um several
years ago. I think what we heard from
this particular vote is um the
neighborhood to the north, south?
>> South side that's not
>> The neighborhood to the south doesn't
>> Yeah, doesn't, right? The neighborhood
to the south um is not part of the
district and therefore isn't paying into
the district. Um and so there was some
views on inequity in that regard. Um
what we also heard, there was many who
probably no longer have children and and
didn't
wouldn't benefit from the services as
much as uh those who did. Um so, that
was, I think, what we mostly heard in
terms of why it was voted down this
time.
>> Okay, I can understand that. And the
thing for me is no children here for us,
you know, ours are long gone and and uh
no grandkids or anything to bring to
play, but I know kids need place to play
and need to keep it nice, and it is
nice, and I want it to stay that way.
And uh so, I I voted for the assessment.
And even though it was kind of a huge
jump from 0.03 for us to 1,000, but
I think it's worth it. And uh
I I understand, you know, people
thinking it's not fair if they're not
uh people who are there benefiting or
are not being assessed. So, I get it.
Thank you for the insight on that.
Thank you again for having such a
beautiful city for us to come to.
>> Welcome to the city.
>> Yeah, welcome to the city, Travis.
You said Clements, right?
>> Yes.
>> Got you.
Uh anyone else like to make a uh
statement or say something?
» My name's Kurt Paulus. I've been born
and raised here in Escalon. I graduated
in 1978, and I'm here to offer a
proposal caretaker on the property that
you the city bought from the Varos, the
19.2 acres next to the community center.
And in my interest in this is where my
family, we owned that property for a
total of 72 years, which my grandfather
and then my father, they don't when we
sold it to the Varos.
Where I'm a single guy, and there's a
little unit in the house where what my
proposal is
I have three folders here that
I could hand out to where you could take
a look and get an idea, and I'd come
back and tell you
where, you know, my deal connects.
There There's pictures in the folder
that I just took yesterday of uh
Just how it looks, you know, the property out
in front, the weeds and everything. And
my proposal is just to keep it clean.
And
nice
good-looking for there's the small unit
in the very back. This is a real small
unit. It's two rooms and it has a
bathroom and stuff and that's what my
offer is for taking care of property.
And that's
pretty much my proposal, you know, where
I just
um watch over it
till the time came of
there and I put an agreement in here
where uh
I'm not very good at this, but yeah, I
put an agreement where if you needed me
to go or it was like just give me 30
days or whatever, but
I've been a long time residents of here,
never been in trouble in my life and I'm
so I just like to could you look at it
and cons- consider it.
>> All right. We'll definitely consider it.
We'll have to read through your proposal
and
>> All righty.
>> I think no one up here is probably
against
>> Uh-huh.
>> speak for everyone, but probably against
uh reading your proposal and seeing what
you
and you're asking for.
>> Okay. Thank you.
>> No problem.
» [clears throat]
» Uh anyone else?
No. Okay, we'll go online.
Okay.
Back to dais.
All right. We'll go to public hearings
now and start with seven.
>> [snorts]
» May I introduce it?
>> Thank you, Mayor. Uh so this is
a continuation of the public hearing to
confirm the engineer's report and
ordering the levy of assessments for
next fiscal year 2026-2027 for all of
the assessment districts, which includes
the Bella Terra Estates, the uh Estates
Benefit Assessment District, Estates
Landscaping and Lighting
Maintenance District, Sunrise Terrace,
and Westwood Country Landscape and
Lighting Maintenance District. Um
Uh
as you as we went through a lot of the
details in the last meeting, um this is
like I mentioned is a continuation. It
requires two um public hearings in order
to move this forward. It is the annual
um assessments. So, unlike the other
item that was discussed and not to
confuse it with that one, this is for
the annual ongoing maintenance, not for
any upgraded improvements or anything
like that. Um it's a routine but
essential action to fund the various
different components of the
neighborhoods, um which is uh in
includes landscaping, lighting, and
maintenance, uh wood fences, chain link
fences, drainage basins, um all of the
things that keep the neighborhoods safe
and operating. Um the engineers' reports
that are attached to each one of these
um districts confirmed all of the costs
required for the assessments for the
next fiscal year. Um every year those
engineers' reports are um re- reviewed
and edited and uh starting with this
year we're providing the redline
versions of you so you can see if any
changes were made um to the budget or
any of the descriptions or histories um
for the for each district.
Um so, these uh assessment districts
ensure neighborhood landscaping and
lighting are properly funded and they
provide the legal and financial basis
for the levies. Um so, with that the
recommendation is to go ahead and uh
conduct the public hearing, hear from
anybody that wants to discuss it, and
then adopt the resolutions to confirm
the engineers' reports.
>> Thank you, manager.
>> Yeah, and I'll just add one note. Uh we
did, as Trevor mentioned, continue this
item from the July 20th meeting. At that
time we discovered that the additional
uh outreach and notification to each
resident within each property owner
within the districts was not completed.
Um this is something that we had added
uh this year based on council uh
direction to really provide as much
information as possible to the
residents. And so one of the things that
we added was of course this notice of
the public hearing that's uh happening
tonight. But also we put in a line item
um expenditure report for everything
that is spent in each district. So every
monthly uh utility bill, every every
monthly water bill, uh every monthly
landscaping bill, we put it all in there
to show the residents exactly um what
their assessment is made up of and they
can compare that expense report to this
new assessment and show kind of where
we're at and and how we got there.
Um so that was something we we added
new. Again, we uh had not um completed
that prior to the July 20th meeting and
so we continued that until today.
>> Okay.
Well, uh thank you for the transparency.
I think
um
you guys have been doing a great job
kind of
more and more
allowing the citizens to see, you know,
how everything plays out behind the
scenes. So it's really appreciated. Um
So um
Anyone want to say anything up here
before I go to the citizens first or
I have some questions for the consultant
but I'll wait.
>> Okay.
We'll go out this time and see if
anyone from the public would like to
make a comment on number seven.
» Hi.
My name is Loretta Borbazon. I live in
the Bella Terra state.
Um my understanding I did see the
what the gentleman stated, the breakdown
of everything, the cost, $101,000
divided by 143
homes would cost me $700 extra every
year.
I don't mind as long as it looks nice
and neat. I was out there today. I've
seen weeds out there, dry spots.
I have pictures to prove it. I mean, if
I'm going to pay this extra money, I
expect everything to be tip-top shape.
And I'm wondering why.
>> Okay.
You want to um actually probably public
works.
>> Yeah, that's that's funny she brings
that up. Just in communication I met
with Grover over there today. Um they
were having some issues with some of the
sprinkler system. Change out a few
sprinklers in the next few days. They
will be addressing that. She's exactly
right. Yeah, the park uh itself right
now is not acceptable. There's lots of
dry areas, but we are aware of it.
Grover's addressing that as we speak.
>> There are weeds, too. They're not
pulling the weeds. They're not pulling
the weeds in the cement. They're not
pulling the weeds in the park.
>> We'll definitely address that.
>> Okay.
>> Loretta, would you um mind reporting
back?
>> No, not at all.
>> Sounds good.
>> Okay. Thank you very much.
You want to deduct my bill? I'd be more
than happy to.
>> [laughter]
» Um anyone else?
No? Okay.
We'll bring back the dais. Actually,
sorry, online first.
>> Um no.
>> Dias?
>> No hands raised online.
>> Councilman
>> I had a question.
>> Yeah, do we have our consultant here?
>> We do.
>> Can we please invite him or her to the
podium?
>> Her, and her name is Melanie.
>> Okay.
>> And she's online.
>> Okay.
Uh good evening, Melanie. Um in
reviewing these, um
is street sweeping included for all of
the uh
LLDs and FY 2026-27 as a cost?
» So, when we looked at So, sorry.
Let me start from the beginning. Go
back. Hi, my name is Melanie Lee. I'm
with consultant with SCI Consulting
Group and we are the new LMD
administrators for the city's um um for
LL um LLMDs and the one benefit
assessment district. Um for the Indian
Street report, the um Estates benefit
assessment district is the only one that
specifically calls out the street
sweeping in a line item budget in the
engineer's report, whereas the other
ones have it included under professional
services. And if you um look at the back
of the engineer's report where there's
an appendix, they will have um
specifically the street sweeping um
uh
expenditures in that part of the um the
engineer's report.
>> Okay, so they are
the street sweeping is accounted for in
the LLMD costs, correct?
>> Yes, if it's in the expenditures um
report that was provided, it is.
>> Okay, so
um
I I I have I take exception with some of
these costs. Um they're very real costs
and and I'm not arguing that they're
100% real costs. I mean, I will say uh
as the mayor alluded to, the accounting
and the reports that we are getting uh
for actual costs are very real and it's
very understandable.
And but that being said, the the intent
of an LLMD is to provide
uh special benefits to those residents
within the LLMD um and it's specific
specifically noted
the special benefits associated with
local landscaping improvements are
specifically
enhanced desirability of properties due
to proximity and accessibility of the
improvements,
improved aesthetic appeal provided by a
positive representation of the
development, neighborhood, and the
community,
improved accessibility for emergency
vehicles, and reduced vandalism and
other criminal activity.
If I'm going through and I'm looking at
some of these costs,
um
I don't know. I I take exception to
the LLMDs
because the grass at Sanchez Park is the
same color green that's currently at
Shadowood Park.
The masonry wall that is at Brentwood
Estates
is the same Brent same masonry wall that
currently surrounds
Bellaterra.
And
I understand we have to cover the costs.
That's our job as council to ensure that
the
community or the city remains
financially solvent.
But as we witnessed uh
when with the 218 vote that came before
us
regarding the improvements of um
>> [snorts]
>> What's what What's this park?
>> Swanson With Swanson Park,
I I believe that the
it's almost getting to the point where
um
the LLMDs are pitting neighbor against
neighbor.
Uh we we have an audience member
uh in the audience tonight that when the
discussion came up regarding the
improvements at Swanson Park,
um he specifically
told
the council,
"I'm not paying for those. I will pay
for those improvements,
but they have to belong to the LLMD.
And essentially, what we have is
and I understand it's a choice. You
decided to move into that neighborhood.
You decided to take on this extra cost.
However,
I did an informal poll
uh of residents in all of the LLMDs.
I asked them one simple question.
Explain to me the the special benefits
that you get from living in an LLMD.
And five out of five people said,
"Not a damn thing."
So,
but it it's our job to make sure that
the city stays financially solvent. If
we vote this down,
then the lights go off. Then the grass
grows.
The that uh
to uh what the lady said previously,
then we have even more weeds.
But I think we as a council
really need to look at
what we're doing for LLMDs
moving forward.
Because now, what you have is you're
pitting neighbor against neighbor.
The people that live within the LLMDs
don't understand the benefits that
they're getting.
Um
question for the
actually, city manager wasn't here, but
so question for public works. When we
put the uh backstop in at Shadowwood
Park, did that trigger a 218 vote?
>> I do not believe so.
>> So, how did we charge
the residents of Bella Terra for
to repair a back charge or a back but
backstop
>> [snorts]
>> that they never never even proved to be
put to put in in the first place.
And additionally, the reason I asked the
question about street sweeping
is I live on here 70th Avenue.
Street sweeping to me
is part of the taxes that I pay.
If you ask those same residents on
California California Street, guess
what?
They're paying for street sweeping.
So, I I'm imploring the council and
staff
that we seriously need to look at
what we're doing for LLMDs moving
forward.
Because if our residents aren't
understanding and can't appreciate the
special benefit
that they're getting,
why do we even have LLMDs in the first
place?
That's all I want to say.
>> Well, I'd [clears throat] say
um
personally, I would think you need to
maybe formulate the some more specifics.
Uh
that way if there is something that's
being lost in translation, it can be
translated.
As well as uh
you know,
the understanding of of why, I think, is
important. Um
Other than that, I think,
you know, if you don't have these things
in in place, then, generally speaking, it's
my understanding that the
those general areas start to kind of
become dilapidated or start to fall
apart. Um
so, maybe we can do a better job at I
think
at some point itemizing or showing
exactly,
>> [clears throat]
>> you know,
what they're getting if they're not
quite understanding what that is.
>> I don't think I don't think that's
necessarily the issue, Mr. Mayor.
>> Well, what's the issue?
>> I think the issue is is that
the original intent of the LLMDs was to
truly provide a special benefit to the
residents when they moved in there.
And through time, through attrition,
through what have you,
the special benefit is lost.
Um, for example,
improved accessibility for emergency
vehicles.
What on God's green earth are we
[snorts] doing to provide
improved accessibility for emergency
vehicles in the estates?
There's no improved In fact, it's
because the streets are so narrow, it's
actually creating a bigger bottleneck.
And so,
I I'm I'm asking I don't have the
answer. I and this isn't going to turn
into a complete complaint session
because
uh
we're not here the whole time, but the
reality is
we need to figure out holistically
what is truly the special benefit that
our residents within the LLMDs, what are
they getting? What are they getting for
what they pay for?
>> Like it I guess [clears throat] what I
would say is
um maybe go through those walk through
that
exercise and
maybe for each LLMD and specifically
write down
>> Okay.
>> what your concerns are so then we can
kind of talk about it um and see if
there's some solution or some issue that
maybe we're missing. I'm not against you
know, looking at it,
but I also
don't uh
don't fully understand what you're
saying, but I
I'd be more than happy to go over it
with you.
>> Well, I I think it's it's more so a
general conversation at a future
meeting.
>> Okay.
Um
Yeah, I don't have a problem with that,
but
>> With that, can we
>> But I think it needs to be more
specific. I think you need to
Right now, you're talking in
generalities a lot. You did give one
specific, but it would be nice to kind
of I think you'd have to hit these one
at a time, where you'd have to have some
sort of uh
you know,
research of it in the background, see if
there's something that can be fixed, and
if it can't, then I'll be more than
happy to bring it to the dais.
>> Okay.
>> Can we reopen the public hearing?
>> Can another council member speak first?
>> Yeah.
>> I personally think
>> And and Mayor, if you're going to reopen
the public hearing, I would just speak
cautious to that because uh we can't
open and close public comment and public
hearing just arbitrarily
>> I got
>> and someone wants to because at some
point we're going to have to say no to
somebody,
>> Exactly. They're going to say
>> And you know, so we just have to be
careful with that.
>> I get it.
>> Um Councilman Kay.
>> I personally think the statements that
you just made were actually a lot more
divisive than running a 218 vote for
something that a member of a community
wanted. You know as well as I do, with
the initiation of Prop 13, it limited
the tax dollars that were there to
provide for park services, water
services, lighting services, general
upkeep, and that's why LLMDs, LMDs, all
of them were created in the first place.
They weren't created just to that you
had all these special benefits over
every other neighborhood. It was so that
it could support the things that were
being put into that development as it
was being built, and you know that as
well as I do.
Your backstop, that was about the only
interesting point that you had there as
to something that yeah, if there wasn't
a 218 vote for it, I don't believe that
we should be able to charge that LLMD.
Aside from that, I think that you know
exactly why these fees are charged, why
all of these things, why they're listed
the way that they are, including street
sweeping services. Every one of those
has to be accounted for as these
neighborhoods are built, otherwise there
is no way to finance them. They come
directly out of the general fund or like
I said, Prop 13 made it impossible for
us to continue enough tax revenue to
support those items, it would bankrupt
the city and that's why those things
came to be. You know that. I don't
appreciate you acting like you or you're
unaware of this and you think that this
is all special stuff. It's not special
stuff. That's how we have to run a city.
>> I I understand that Council Member King
and I respect your opinion. My My
question now is
What is What is the special benefit? And
that's That's what I'm struggling with.
>> Okay, the special benefit is lights on.
>> Okay.
>> Watering their their parks, taking care
of their grass, taking care of their
tree services, the benefits that are all
outlined in those documents. It is all
spelled out. This is what we are going
to be paying for with the revenue that
we are going to be taking collecting
with your fees. The special benefits are
the lights will shut off, the wa- water
will stop running, the grass will stop
growing, the trees will stop being
trimmed. All of it is outlined there.
When the wall falls down, that's your
wall and that's your problem. That's
what would happen if we charge
accordingly.
>> Okay.
>> [clears throat]
>> If there is any further questions, I
think probably best thing to do is get
with city manager and kind of walk
through it. And then if there's still
concern, then then bring it back.
>> Absolutely.
>> I think in the meantime, I think um
cuz there's difference between general
use and special use, I get what you're
saying. But I also um
think what Councilman King is saying is,
you know, spot-on. So, I think probably
talk to the city manager,
get on the same page and if there's an
issue, then bring it back.
>> May- maybe we need to have a town hall
and explain how it is that that LMDs
came to be and and where these fees come
from. I I don't know.
Uh but, you know, we we know full well
why it is that we charge the things that
we charge for. Like I said, your
backstop statement was about the only
one that does actually spark my interest
as that is something that if they didn't
uh
vo- voted in, the backstop's in in the
place, the city should be taking care of
any repair cost for them. We should not
be billing the residents for it. Do we
fix the backstop this year?
>> Yes, well it was charged in 25, 26.
>> It was charged in
>> The the repair the backstop.
>> So I mean that that is something that
should be addressed, you know,
individually and probably before we both
bought this in. Because
I agree with you. If they didn't vote it
in as a 218 vote, we installed it as a
city or a private entity, one of you
know, Lions Club or etc. whatever it was
that that put it in,
then they are not financially
responsible to pay for that. But aside
from that, all of the rest of that was a
whole bunch of hubbub about nothing when
you know, we know why it is that we
charge these fees and why they have to
be paid.
>> Um Pro Tem? [clears throat]
>> Uh yeah, I have a couple of comments. I
don't entirely disagree with Council
Stroman. Uh some there are in the
language in the engineer's report uh
general benefits and special benefits
and these LLMDs are supposed to have
special benefits. They do.
Uh we do have the parks and the
playgrounds that are upgraded, they are
upkept, they are repaired much more
often. Um for example, Sanchez was
dilapidated, they were it was not in the
LLMD and to get that replaced, we had
donations from Lions Club. They redid
that whole park and and that was how we
actually got the funds to do so.
Uh in the LLMDs, those those playgrounds
get
um
repaired.
Uh and may or may not make choices on
what trees go in when there's an LLMD
and when there is not. So that there are
those choices, there are special
benefits.
Do I think street sweeping is one of
them? Probably not. That could be a
discussion. There are here and there
what is general, what is special. So um
don't entirely disagree with you,
Council Stroman. Uh as for the
backstops,
if I remember correctly, cuz I think I
was on recreation commission at the
time,
um those were a COVID
uh expense that we had COVID monies for
and then that was to separate so that
kids have more places to play so they
weren't just ball collecting at our one
park that has baseball fields. So, I
think that was we used to some of our
code if if you can correct me if I'm
wrong, but I do believe we put in extra
backstops at extra parks so that we had
more play space spread out. Is that
>> I can't give you I can't give you
comments on the funding. I'm just asked
to put in a backstop and we put in
backstop.
>> But it was around that time period, is
that correct? Yeah, so I'm
that is how the backstops came to be and
why the backstops came to be and why we
weren't waiting for a vote on it and it
was minimal cost for those metal
backstops as well. So, that's how they
got there, why why there was not a pause
on those.
>> Well, my my statement is just that if we
put it in as a city and we didn't do a
218 vote on it at the time, we can't
charge them for repairs on it now. 100%
and I think that our legal professional
would agree with that.
>> If it's not listed as an improvement in
the original formation documents,
um then yeah, I would I would agree with
it. I but I I can't opine because I
don't have it I don't know.
>> Right. But if it that's
>> No, no, we have that information.
>> If that's the case, if your major
premise is true, then yeah, then that's
true.
>> Why don't we [clears throat]
uh research that and see where we're at
there
and then um
in the meantime, if we do find out that
there's validity to it, then
um I don't know if there's any way we
can retroactively
you know, make that right.
>> I'm sure there could be a credit or
something in for the future year. I we have to get this to the audit
controller's office
tonight. So, if we don't, then we're
going to miss a whole year's worth of
revenue.
So, I would not I I
until we can investigate that with
precision and double-check all of all of
the facts to make sure it's true, I
recommend that you levy the assessment
tonight and then we can always apply
some kind of credit or something against
it difference for the next for the next
tax year.
>> I think that seems fair.
But, Mr. Mayor, can I make one more
statement?
Um I really appreciate
your feedback, Council Member Kay.
My point was that
yes, we're up against a deadline. We
cannot
just stop a whole year's of assessments
moving forward. Totally respect that. My
point was that
I think we I mean from from what we're
seeing in these engineers' report to
what we used to see 4 years ago is night
and day different. It's completely
different. All of the bills are
itemized. Everything's listed out. We
know exactly where the funds are going.
My point is that
I just would like us to and
the four of you don't have to do it. I I
will take on this responsibility. All
I'm saying is that
we want to make sure that we are doing
right by our residents and ensuring that
these costs are truly a special benefit.
>> I think uh
I think that uh
you know, we're kind of beating a dead
horse here. I think honestly what we
needed need to do is just research it.
>> Yep.
>> I have no [clears throat] issue with
doing obviously do right by the
community. That's the thing why we're
all up here.
Um and if you find some something that
is genuinely an issue, bring it we bring
it back. But I think right now I think
we need to realize you know
that
both of you everyone's made their
statement except for mainly Councilman
Ogle.
>> I think anything to say at this point
would be redundant. I think all the
points were covered.
>> Okay. So
I would humor a motion.
>> I'll just state that we as a city have
been known in historically to lower
assessments after realizing we have
assessed higher and we do lower in
following years. So, historically we
have set a precedent to be able to go
back, look at that, and then lower those
assessments in the future in the
following years. So,
we'll go ahead and and talk to staff in
the future and we'll just see what what
we can find in those numbers.
>> Okay.
Do we have a motion on this?
>> Sure, I'll make a motion. Mr. Mayor, I'd
like to motion to adopt resolution
number XX26 confirming the engineer's
reports ordering a levy of assessments
for fiscal year 2026-27 for the Bella
Terra Estates Landscape Maintenance
District number 01-1, Estates Benefit
Assessment District number 06-1, Estates
Landscape and Lighting Maintenance
District number number 06-1,
Sunrise Terrace Landscape Maintenance District number 96-1, and
Westwood Country Landscape and Lighting
Maintenance District number 02-1,
and
uh investigate the potential over gym
cost for the backstop and issue a refund
if necessary.
>> Any second on that?
>> I'll second.
>> Okay. All in favor, say aye.
>> Aye.
>> All opposed, say nay. Okay.
On to number eight. Um city manager,
» Thank you, Mayor.
So, the item before you is
to consider a software program that the
city is looking at in in this particular
case, it's
up to a 7-year agreement. Um we get
pricing for 7 years. It's not
necessarily
we're not bound necessarily by the 7
years. But,
I will get into the introduction and
then I'll turn it over to Trevin and the
team to walk through the rest.
>> [gasps]
>> Um so, the new management team over the
last three years, um, our efforts have
been to strive to implement council
direction, of course, uh, to take steps
to becoming a more professional
organization,
um, to improve customer service and
customer satisfaction has been has has
been, um,
feedback provided to us and to make it
easier for businesses to do business in
town. And this is the council's new, um,
focus on on economic development.
We are, of course, continuing to work on
all of those goals, um, and we, I think,
make strides each year, uh, but continue
to work on it.
Approximately three years ago, um,
the past council, largely made up of the
same individuals, um, challenged staff
to make headway on review of business
licenses and home ox. Those were taking
between three and seven days. Um, we
have cut that down in three years to one
day in every single instance, pretty
much.
Um, [snorts]
99.999%
Um, and we also, because of the reduced
review time, we reduced the home ox
permit cost about 50% at that time. So,
we were charging less.
So, this was the kind of first foray
into looking at how to improve the
process, how to streamline it a bit,
and,
um, it's been successful so far.
>> [clears throat]
>> Then, as we, um,
adopted the strategic plan, the
council's strategic plan that looked at
economic development, as we formed the
economic development committee,
and as we started to draft the economic
development strategic plan,
um,
much of the conversation in both of
those circles, the EDC, the economic
development committee, and the economic
development strategic plan have focused
on how to streamline and and make the
process smoother for businesses to come
in to renew their business, for home
owners to to come in.
And so software is is one such tool, of
course, to help to streamline, to take
some of the human error and the human
processing where a small staff, we have
outages sometimes, illnesses, vacations,
those types of things.
And so as we were looking
at various software programs, we came
across OpenGov.
And we view it as as one of the best out
there for sure.
Now, what we recognize is there's a cost
associated with this effort.
Um and we bring this to the council
with that background that we are looking
to make it more
professional organization, to streamline
the process, to improve customer service
specifically for businesses.
Um and so with that, I will turn it over
to Trevin and the team to kind of walk
through the specifics of the OpenGov
program, what it does, what it doesn't
do. And in that presentation, we'll walk
through the cost and some of our ideas
that we have to offset some of the cost
so there's not a as large of a general
fund subsidy.
>> Thank you, city manager. And I'll I'll dovetail right into the history on
that. As soon as I came on board, one of
my major tasks was developing an
economic development strategic plan.
That was going to take some time. We
knew it was going to take about a year
to do that. So we worked with the
economic development committee to create
an interim economic development
strategic plan or a work plan that
included the small business grants that
you're probably more familiar with, but
it also included a couple of other
items. We explored with you the concept
of a small business incubator or a
rentable office space in city hall, and
that had its drawbacks and we didn't
pursue that. One of the other items that
was on that short list that was approved
was
looking at
a permitting system.
And so that's where the context of this
came in and over the past year we've had
other hot button priorities for economic
development like the grant program, but
staff continued to poke and look at
different opportunities to have a more
modern system that can give our staff
the tools they need to be
immediately available for customers and
immediately responsive to customers as
they expect in a digital age. So that
led us to looking at our current
software providers to see if we could
leverage something that we already have
to provide services to our customers and
our citizens such as Tyler and Numio and
HDL. Those are some of our providers
that we've used in the past for
different services and they had a
solution for permitting which we
reviewed and looked at, but they didn't
necessarily meet what we needed. We
looked at other governments nearby to
see what they were using
which included ClearGov and BlueDot, but
also those didn't really include
everything that we needed. They just had
components of what we needed. So we
looked at multiple platforms.
We went through demonstrations on each
product. We looked at references and we
compared costs, and OpenGov was really
the only one that offered pretty much
everything that we were looking for. A
unified permitting and licensing system,
integrated mobile inspections, GIS and
master address integration, an automatic
state contractor license verification.
So if something someone's applying for a
license, they also need to show us their
state license. This does that
automatically for us. It frees up staff
from having to do that back end office
work so that we can spend more time at
the front counter and spend more more
with customers.
It's also native to the Stripe payment
processing.
Um
and [clears throat] so as we started
going through and evaluating our
options, we landed on OpenGov. We began
discussions with them and they were able
to provide us a significantly discounted
price given the size of the community
and um providing a longer-term contract.
Um we are uh fortunate we have a
representative from OpenGov uh with us
tonight in the audience. I'm going to
invite Arty up and he's going to walk
through how the software works so that
you can see in um
on the screen. I'll I'll uh pull it up
on the screen and give Arty the clicker
um so that he can go ahead and click
through the presentation for you and
you'll be able to see it up there.
>> Um excuse me, was it Ar- Arty?
>> Arty, yeah.
>> Arty, okay, like Marty with a without
the M.
>> Yeah, it's a it's a nickname for Arthur.
>> Okay, got you.
>> Council members, thank you for having me
here today and um I appreciate your
time. Uh like I said, my name's Arty
Hazelton and I'm the OpenGov
representative. Um and I'm here to
answer any questions related to OpenGov
uh and you know, dive into the specifics
of the actual software. Um so I can be
your technical resource as well. Um
let's see.
So to give you just an overview of
OpenGov, um we are a software company
that's purpose-built for local
government. So we only work with cities,
towns, villages, counties, boroughs,
what have you.
Um
but we have a lot of experience working
with
really small agencies um like Escalon.
And so across the country and across our
entire product portfolio, we do partner
with over 2,000 governments. Um
specifically the permitting and
licensing product that we're discussing
today, uh there are over 700 partners
across the country.
Uh in the state of California, there's
over 60 and then if we even zoom in
closer, um City of Ripon and City of
Oakdale are also both uh OpenGov
permitting and licensing customers.
So we have a lot of experience across
the country as well as within the area
as well.
So I'm going to summarize instead of
going through every single one of these
bullet points, but the benefits to
working with OpenGov is twofold. So on
one side we have quite a bit of
efficiencies for staff and time saving
for staff. And one thing that I want to
mention is for an agency like Escalon
that's moving off of no system at all or
a paper based system.
As a part of the implementation we're
actually going to be
creating a standardized workflow or
process for
you know, handling permits. And so with
that, once you do have a standardized
process, there's a lot of automated
features within the system
that will actually save quite a bit of
time for staff. For example,
coordinating multi-departmental review.
This is all done automatically in the
system.
Scheduling inspections is automatic.
Calculating fees and charging fees is
automated as well. And there's a number
of other features within the system that
we'll go through
in this presentation. But a lot of time
savings for staff
and creating efficiencies there. On the
other side and from a customer service
perspective there's actually a lot of
benefit for constituents or
you know, the applicants that are going
to be using the actual online permit
portal. For one it provides a
centralized location for everything
permit and license related. And I
actually have a slide following this
that will show you what that sort of
looks like.
But on top of that it provides a lot of
transparency. So you know, staff will
not have to field as many calls or
emails about hey, where is this permit
or what's the status on this permit?
They're actually able to go onto the
portal
and look at it by themselves.
And then another item that's actually
not on this list is the fact that both
the Ripon and Oakdale are using this
permitting system. So for contractors
that are doing business across all three
cities, they're going to have a
consistent experience
and they'll actually have one unified
login for all different cities.
So
this here is actually a look at the
public-facing portal
and as you can see it's a one-stop shop.
So that means it's a place where
applicants can apply for permits or
licenses, pay for fees, track the status
of the permit, communicate with staff
members,
search up historical permit data
for any specific address
and it's also designed for both
frequent flyers as well as first-time
permit applicants.
As you can see here, there's a search
bar front and center. So for someone who
doesn't know the permit process that
well, they can look up something like,
"Hey,
um
what permits do I need for building an
ADU in my backyard?" And the system will
actually show you, "Hey, XYZ permits"
and will let you apply for it just right
there.
And so that's the public portal, but you
know, within the staff side, there's
obviously faster reviews because a lot
of the process is now automated within
the system.
It's a place for both staff and
applicants to actually communicate and
collaborate on different projects that
they're working on.
And then one item as well as the city's
going to have full control of the
system.
And when you look at other vendors
within this space, this is actually a
big differentiator with OpenGov
because if, you know, for example with
another system, if you wanted to
change the application fields or change
the workflow steps or update the fee
schedule,
Um will actually require going to the
vendor having IT do that for you. But
with OpenGov, city staff are very easily
able to make those changes on their own.
Just to show you more of the actual
system. This is also on the
public-facing side. Um and this is what
it looks like once someone submits an
application. But as you can see on the
left-hand side here, there's actually a
status tracker that shows in real time
where the permit's at. So, um if an
applicant wants to, you know, instead of
calling into the city, they can actually
just go online and check and see where
it's at.
This is um an internal feature, but
there's a built-in fee calculator. So,
city staff are able to and as a part of
the implementation, um set up uh a fee
schedule with different rules. And just
using this, you know, applicants are
able to apply for permits and know
exactly what they're paying for. Um
and it saves quite a bit of time for
both staff and applicants.
This is also another internal look, um
but when it comes to
multi-departmental review where you have
different departments working on uh the
review process for a permit, they're
able to see in real time what department
we're waiting on. Um so, we can see here
building has already approved their
portion, but we're waiting on public
works. And even within the system,
you're able to message other departments
and say, "Hey, John Doe and and public
works, can you please take a look at
this when you get a chance?" Um so, it's
a centralized location for
everything that you have to do for the
actual permit.
And then finally, um another benefit is
the reporting
uh and the dashboards that you're able
to create on your own. [clears throat]
Um we actually find with other agencies
that they will give uh council members a
login to OpenGov, so they can actually
see dashboards and check, "Hey, you
know, what's the permit revenue this
year? Or how many building permits have
we issued so far?
But these are just some of the benefits
to to OpenGov and
uh
that's the end of my presentation. If
you guys have any questions, please let
me know.
>> Thank you, Ardy. I have a few more
unless you have questions directly for
Ardy. I'm just going to go over the cost
for you.
>> Go for it.
>> Okay. So, thank you, Ardy. I appreciate
it. Um wanted to touch on uh the cost.
So, now that you see what the software
is, um how it functions, you have a much
better understanding in your mind's eye
of how staff would be using it. Um staff
has worked with Ardy and his team on
coming up with a cost structure that
might work really well for the city. Um
it's a 7-year contract and the first
year is comprised of primarily setting
up the software. Now, typically this
would be a cost above and beyond the
contract cost for the subscription, but
OpenGov has essentially discounted the
price of the software by 70% and um is
also providing a lot of their staff time
to get the software up and running for
the implementation component. Um so,
this will save us considerably and will
allow us to hit the ground running and
get their help to implement it and
provide um immediate uh service to the
public and immediate asset to the
public. Um and so, the OpenGov platform,
it's intuitive for both customers and
staff. It's widely used by other
agencies um and its pricing is fully
pre-competed through the Sourcewell
cooperative purchasing program. That's
something that I also um want to make
sure that's clear and transparent on. In
any purchase that we do in city hall, we
make sure that it's competitively bid.
There are opportunities where um these
there have they have there are already
um competitive bids that are out there
and they're already results. So, we're
in a sense piggybacking on Sourcewell's
competitively bid process to get the
discounted rate or the prebid rate. On
top of that, we're getting the 70%
discount for the first year and then the
40% annual discount there
moving forward every year on top of the
prebid price. So, we're getting a
considerable deal on this software
program.
It is a software as service agreement
and so we use it year by year and so
that's how the the contract is set up.
Now, to support the cost of the
software, we wanted to try and be
creative in not putting all of the
burden on general fund and competing
with other departments
other services
within the city for this. So, we looked
at a way to slowly escalate our building
and development permit fees so that we
can slowly absorb the cost of this
system and be able to provide better
services to our community. And so,
that's what you see in the chart in the
fiscal impact is you see the explanation
of the costs and then you see the slow
ramp up year by year
where we projected what it would look
like if we did a 3% to our building fees
and we took our
last year's fees to be able to calculate
those those results.
Yes, and I can put that on the screen.
So, that that concludes my discussion of
the fiscal impacts. Happy to answer
questions. Are you still here? Happy to
answer questions as well and I'll put it
up on the screen for the public.
» [clears throat]
>> Any questions up here?
>> Mr. Mayor, I have a couple.
>> Yeah.
>> At least one.
>> Before
>> So,
I I did want to say thanks for
explaining the ROI cuz that was my my
biggest concern, right? How do we get
our money back? I think you did a good
job of explaining
how we're able to cover those costs over
the full term. So, I guess that leaves
my my question to be for
>> Yeah, for Arty or for
>> Uh this is
>> Yeah, for Trevin, yeah.
>> Or it could potentially be for Arty as
well, but
uh
while I I I definitely appreciate uh a
system in place for licensing and
permitting. Uh you know, I brought that
to council, you know, several years ago,
and you guys have done a great job with
that to see to So, to see that we're
furthering that is encouraging to me.
But,
uh you know,
while the majority of us are, you know,
transitioning to digital formats, there is still a percentage of people
who aren't. So, will applicants still be
able to come in and process over the
counter if they're not tech-friendly?
>> Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that wouldn't
change at all. The goal is to be able to
provide more face time with the public
and have staff more available instead of
working on back office tasks of routing
paperwork.
>> No, I I I think it looks great. Thank
you.
>> Any other questions up here?
Just a brief one.
Um
So, uh confirming I when I talked to the
city manager about this item, he noted
that um
we're not locked into a full 7-year
contract, and we can evaluate
um
after year one if we're truly get
getting a return on our our investment
moving forward.
Uh I guess my question is to you,
how can we confirm that yes, we are
freeing up staff time? How are we uh
without losing that
um
customer-centric focus? Uh as the city
manager alluded to, we took the
businesses business licensing down from
3 to 7 days to 1 day.
I want to make sure that we're remain
still maintaining those customer service
levels
um
moving forward. So,
how how can we track that to make sure
that we're not losing that
customer-centric feel by going to an
online service?
>> I guess
We will [clears throat] still track it
the same way. So, right now we track our
the timeline for closing out new
business license applications and
processing them. And so, we'd still have
that as staff to be able to track that.
wouldn't change.
>> Yeah.
>> And I'll just, you know, what I think
your question is and and Trevin has
mentioned this.
There's a lot of back-end
work to be done processing licenses and
permits. It is no contact with the
customer.
And what we believe this program will do
is free up that time, so we have more
time available with the customers.
So, you know,
business licenses every year annual
updates very manual process for us. It
takes two staff members like, you know,
the better part of a month to to do some
of that. So, with a program, we can do
more of that in a streamlined fashion,
freeing up that time to be able to
provide more customer service.
Um and to your question a little bit, um
managing a permit or license online
doesn't preclude us from still helping
that customer
uh at the counter and taking in a
physical copy of the permit and then we
just process it through the online
portal therefore
therefrom.
Um but, as was mentioned by both Trevin
and Arty, it gives the customer who
happens to think of something at 10:00
at night or on a Saturday the ability to
look up the status of their permit or
their license without having to wait
until Monday or without having to wait
until, you know, the staff member
returns from an illness or a vacation or
something. So, it gives them more
visibility, more awareness in a digital
platform
um
through this program. But, if they're
not digitally savvy, they can obviously
they call the city and and we'll be able
to help them with that as well.
» So, [clears throat]
you're saying that it's not going to
decrease the physical face-to-face
handshake conversations
with the businesses?
Like, are you going to actively go to
these businesses and be constantly,
you know, there? Cuz I think there's a
lot lot that gets lost in translation
through digital stuff.
You know what I'm saying?
>> Yeah, honestly, it'll decrease it for
those who don't want the face-to-face
interaction and it'll increase it for
those who do. We'll just we'll free up
more staff time to be able to interact
with those who do want, but those who do
this all the time and and kind of know
the process and want to check it online,
they're able to do that whenever they
want.
>> Can I Can I also add to that? So, staff
always recommends that we do a
pre-development meeting or
pre-application meeting and that
recommendation wouldn't change. That
would still be advertised. That would
still be our preference. We want the
public and we want the applicant to have
clarity on what the steps are and we
want to be aligned with them on what
their desires and goals are for their
project and how we can how we can help
you. So, [clears throat] we would still
pursue that and that wouldn't that's not
done through the software. That's done
through a meeting with staff.
>> So, I have a couple basic questions
besides that I was going to ask.
Um, what's done with the metadata? Are
you guys selling it off? You
Do it Does it go to,
you know, our own little server? Like,
how does that work?
Uh, and then the other would be what
else is on there like as far as arena
numbers, all that stuff? Is that on that
website?
>> Um,
to answer the first question, no, we
don't sell your data. It's it's all
hosted on the cloud, but you own all of
your data.
Um, and then could you repeat the second
question?
>> I I can answer that.
>> Got it.
>> So, the second question for the public
was arena numbers. I don't see this
software uh tracking the arena numbers.
That's still something that will be done
by staff through um the housing element
implementation. We'll do by hand.
>> So no one out in LA can't isn't
cherry-picking.
I I just want to make sure I'm clear
with
the potential technology as far as how
it could be abused or not.
>> Correct. Yeah, this won't report the
data or provide the data to some
stranger online.
So yes, correct.
>> Yeah.
Um
All right.
that's what I have. Um
Anyone else up here have questions at
all?
No?
All right. Um we'll take it out to the
public.
>> Thank you, Sandy.
» Okay. Um the presentation was beautiful.
The the benefits, I understand. I'm
coming at it from a completely different
angle. Um
I'm coming at it from somebody who lives
within a budget, and so my question is
probably ignorant. If I buy TurboTax,
for example, I pay one fee. It doesn't
matter if I do just mine or if I do 100
of my neighbors, the fee's the same.
And the more
TurboTax sells their software, the more
money they make. So my question is, if
it's software,
the price to me,
from where I sit,
goes from 39 to 58,000
for software.
So
I'm
you know, when software is developed and
it's there pretty much after software,
and I understand you're going to have,
you know, help and and you're going to
have people that you can call and and
help you with this, but that's a big
jump. I mean, if it's the same software,
why does the price go up? It's
typically, you know, once something is
developed, the more customers you get, your money with more customers,
not you've got a product that now you
guys like and it's it's, you know,
supply and demand, I get it, you know,
and it's and it's and it's what do I
want to call it? Profit. But
it's a little it's a little much, it's a
whole salary. So, to me, I'm looking at
that and going, "Okay, it's software and
once you put it in place and you it's going, it's going to run itself."
And so, why does the cost keep going up
and why is it so god gum expensive? And
I appreciate that I can still call
because I am not a techy person and I
don't want to do it online. Okay.
Thanks.
>> Okay.
Do we have anybody to answer that
question?
>> Yeah, can can somebody Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> I think I could do a half-baked job of
it, but I'm sure that a professional
could do a better job.
>> Yeah. So, so yes, the the pricing does
increase um 5% year over year. Um and
the reason for that is
we provide uh the product enhancements
to all of our customers at no cost. So,
I think what you'll see with a lot of
other vendors is they'll have, you know,
OpenGov 1.0 and then if you want the
newest version, you got to pay for the
upgrade for OpenGov 2.0. With OpenGov,
you're getting the best um system at all
times. It's it's constantly improving
and and we do put a lot of um funding
into our product development. Um and I
think I don't know, I think that the
permitting and licensing product that we
offer is actually the one that's
developed the most. Um so, that's the
reason why there's a a pricing increase.
>> I would have gone with cloud server
storage and, you know, all the
electricity and expense that it takes to
run all of that increasing over time and
all that fun stuff as well. Just to add
to that, Sherry.
>> Very true.
>> Okay. Uh any other questions out there?
>> I just want to make a comment for
Sherry. On page 389 of the agenda,
Sherry, kind of down at the bottom,
you'll be able to see what the estimated
labor savings is. So, it kind of
justifies that and and then it talks um
you know, the the annual operation cost.
so what that actually saves. And then
for like a staff member, just just to
throw it out there, if we were to
account for a staff members
um total compensation package, we would
significantly surpass the numbers that
are that are put out there.
Um any other questions out there?
Online?
Okay, we'll bring it back to the dais.
Thank you, Arty.
>> [snorts]
>> Um
I I definitely see where there's
increasing efficiency, for sure.
Um
are we
got it getting some
uh reason of thinking we're going to
have like a significant influx of
permitting
that's that's uh going to be a game
changer that would justify needing this,
or is it just more
for a back-end efficiency?
» I think, you know, this first started
with economic development and
potentially more or new businesses
coming in
and being able to have a streamlined,
smooth, professional process
um to help us in the attraction and
processing of of new businesses.
Otherwise, um you know, we don't expect
an influx. I think we are reacting to
from 3 years ago until today some of the
comments we've heard from council
pre-strategic plan and and
post-strategic plan.
Um
you know, I I would say this is not
cutting-edge technology, right? This is
uh sort of a baseline for for many
cities to move from the kind of paper
manual process into um
a program like this. So, no, we don't
expect an influx, but we do want to help
um future businesses if we get things
going like we want to, Liberty Business
Park in the opportunity zone on on the
west side of town, those types of
things.
>> Okay.
>> Appreciate the insight. Um
At the dais, any thoughts or
>> So, um
just a very quick thought. And And the
quick thought is
uh I'm not against the the 7-year
agreement. The only thing that I would
request from staff is um
maybe a brief annual update just to
ensure that we're still meeting
um customer service expectations and
making sure that we're getting the
return on investment. And if it's not
working, uh please be transparent
>> [snorts]
>> uh with the council and just say it's
not working. We need to
uh cut stop this deal or or
stop this agree moving forward. Just to
make sure that we're doing right with
taxpayer dollars.
» Um any other thought
>> Sure.
>> Sorry. Any other thoughts?
>> Uh state really quick. Um very beautiful
presentation. I can see that this can be
useful in a lot of bigger jurisdictions
that have a lot more permitting. I wish
we had that. Uh we were expecting to
have a huge influx coming in.
Um I'm personally on a mission to more
humanize
uh than automate right now. And I'm just
kind of going in that direction. So, uh
that's where I'm coming from right now.
I'd rather to have humans and
personalization
um more than automation and digital uh
things. I'd much rather on the analog
run right now. So, that's where I'm at.
And those are my thoughts.
» Uh any other thoughts?
Councilman Negrete, you good?
>> I'm good. Thank you.
>> Uh Councilman Kay and Stroman?
>> I'm good.
>> [snorts]
>> Okay. Do we have any Do uh
>> Are Are a motion on this?
>> Motions? yeah. Oh, we need to, I think.
Or do we Yeah.
>> Uh did we open up to the public?
>> Yeah, public hearing section. Yeah.
>> Yeah, that's right.
>> Mr. Mayor, I'll make a motion to
[clears throat]
um
approve a 7-year agreement with OpenGov.
Inc. via Virtual Soft with the
implementation and subscription of a
digital permitting
and licensing platform uh with an annual
check-in with the council to ensure that
customer service expectations are being
met from the public.
And authorize the city manager to
execute all related documents.
>> I'll second.
>> Okay.
You have a second? All in favor, say
aye.
>> Aye.
All opposed, say nay.
>> Nay.
>> Okay.
>> [clears throat]
» All right, we'll go on to number nine.
» Thank you, Council. Uh this this item is
with
>> You want to go ahead?
>> Uh city manager is going to go ahead and
start this.
>> Sorry, Travin. I'll just do a
do an intro here. Um
I'll turn it over to Travin, and we do
have uh we have Kim online with Gold
[clears throat] Back to help answer
questions. So, this item is an evolution
of an agenda item request that was made
back in October 2025
um by a couple council members, and at
that the council uh wanted and directed
staff to really uh share with the
business community the benefits of
holding and and having gold um as it had
just recently um been classified a a
tier one asset.
As we were uh kind of exploring that
further, uh staff, Travin in particular,
came across Gold Back, and so the
conversations have have merged a bit
um in that time. I think uh around the
first of the year um there was
presentations to the Economic
Development Committee from Goldback and
then to the City Council as well.
Um to discuss what is basically a
gold-infused
currency that they are uh it's a private
company, privately held, that they are
um you know, trying to get really up and
running. Several communities across the
nation
um utilize it, several businesses do, um
but they're they're trying to expand.
And so um that's kind of the genesis of
this item. Um back in March, I believe,
Council directed staff to invite
Goldback out to Parkfee.
Um Goldback was at Parkfee. They had a
relatively successful um venture there.
They sold tens of thousands of the
actual product, and they signed up um
close to two dozen and a little over two
dozen businesses around the area, not
just in Escalon. I think about seven
businesses um are able to accept
Goldbacks right now in uh Escalon, but
they were able to sign up about 26
businesses kind of in the valley, in the
region.
And so after the relative success at at
Parkfee, uh staff started to look into
becoming a distributor. Um so not one
that would accept for payment of utility
bills or something like that, but really
kind of a centralized hub um for the
businesses if it really did take off.
And so with that, I'll I'll turn it over
to Trevin and and Kim to go through the
rest of the presentation and answer any
questions that the council may have.
>> Yeah, that was a a great uh review of
the background. Um Jaylen also covered
um how the distributorship would work.
Um so uh before you tonight is the
distributorship agreement. It has
minimal um purchasing terms.
Essentially, we'd be
um
uh in a nine non-binding contract
essentially that we would have the
opportunity to purchase wholesale the
gold back
um
uh tradeable notes from the company
themselves, and then we would be um
allowed to sell them here at City Hall.
Um we There would be a a margin that we
would get to collect that can offset our
staff costs for being available to the
public to distribute those. Um and then
we would be in order to stay in the in
the contract and in the partnership, we
would be required to purchase a minimum
of 25,000 a year or 2,500 a month. Um
and so we don't see at this point going
beyond that. We don't know exactly was
Park City just a special event that
everyone felt excited to participate in
this or is this a constant demand that's
out there? So, we would uh walk before
we run, and we would probably just do
about 2,500 a month, and it would just
be another thing that we have available
for the community to help encourage
shopping local and supporting local and
um
creating that small tight-knit community
where we can uh trade in analog notes
instead of um credit card payments. Um
so that's that's the purpose and that's
the agreement that's that's before you
for a decision, and then uh Kim is
online if she has anything to add or if
you have any questions.
>> And And I'll just add. So, um
you know, we asked the question
directly,
you know, if it's uh there's not as many
businesses that are looking to do this,
what's the requirement? Um they Goldback
basically said it's an encouragement to hit the minimum thresholds, but if it
wasn't working for us, there's no um
specific requirement um to do that. So,
we can evaluate that over time, but they
certainly encourage us to to have the
resources available that's necessary if
we are going to become a distributor.
And just to hit home a little bit on on
the distributor, um
again, Trevin mentioned this, but we
would buy the Goldbacks at wholesale,
sell it, um you know, at at the market
rate, um which is a little bit of an
increase, and we'd be a hub for the
businesses and other community members
who want to trade, sell, buy, um
Goldbacks. You could also have an ATM of
Goldbacks if the uh council was
interested in that as well. So again,
you're kind of a a hub for the business
and resident community who um buy, use,
trade, and sell these um
this currency.
>> Um
>> [clears throat]
>> You still got it, Kim.
>> Okay, Kim.
you have anything to add to that
before we
talk it over?
>> I I don't. We have Nathan Hallows is on
the line as well that can speak to the
details of the distributor agreement, so
>> Okay. Does he want to go ahead and
let us know then?
>> I think we're here just to answer any
questions you might still have, so
>> Okay.
Um any questions up here?
>> Yeah, just a brief one.
>> Before I go out to the lobby.
>> Okay. I'll go first, I think. Please do.
Go for it, Mr. Rowman.
>> So, I guess my only question is
while I I appreciate Goldback coming to
Park City, um
if the if we move forward with the
distributorship,
uh this is both for for the Goldback
folks and for Trevin,
how are we going to
bring greater awareness to the Goldback
system for businesses that didn't attend
Park City or for community members that
didn't
that don't know about Park City
or didn't don't know about Goldback. I
mean, is there going to be an education
process? Are we going to introduce this
to how are we going to roll this out to
the public?
>> Yeah, we we don't have
>> I
>> Sorry, go ahead.
>> I think I think one great thing is, you
know, we have a lot of great literature.
So, if someone does come in and ask
questions about gold backs, we have the
literature that you could hand out, go
over.
Uh we have Phil on the line
uh who, you know, runs this program.
He and his team are great resources to
educate, uh be willing to come and do
more educational uh opportunities that
you if you have them out there.
So, we're here to help as much as we can
and and uh facilitate any educational uh
processes that we need to as well.
>> Yeah, I would second what Nathan just
said. Um
I would be totally willing to come out
for a town hall type of meeting and
educate people.
I'm heading to one tomorrow, in fact, in
a similar sized town of 10,000 people.
Uh we'll all meet with people and and
do some continued education on gold
backs. And this is a town that's been
using gold backs for years, but they
still have people that want to know a
little more, so they invite me out at
least once a year and I go out and
update them and give them a little more
education, go around the town and visit
businesses and see how it's going. Uh
really be a community partner with you,
not just come in and try to sell you on
something. We really see this as a way
of keeping
uh money or economics local in your own
economy, make your own
you know, local economy and we want to
be a partner with you in that.
>> Okay. Uh Councilman Ingle, did you have
something earlier or no?
>> Uh I I do. So, a couple things. Um so, I
spoke spoke on this at the last meeting
and and I believe
at the time I believed in it as uh an
investment vehicle and and I've
purchased several of these uh several
years ago and have seen my return
double.
However, as I look at the exchange rate
today with one Goldback being $8.85 and
spot price of gold being at $4,408,
it's double the price of spot.
A- And so, with Goldback,
I don't really see it as as a currency.
I see it as a business that that
potentially is fleecing their customers.
Uh when we're looking at the amount of
money that you put in for the amount
that you get back with an an expectation
or an anticipation anticipation of the
uh price of gold increasing,
it's a total gamble. And the amount that
we're charging and the fact that we're
even considering being a wholesaler
means we're we're potentially
accepting being part of that business
model, which is charge double what a
product is worth, keep a percentage, and
then pass that disservice on to our
citizens or customers.
Uh that's just my my thought and my
belief. Like, if I think if if uh
fractional gold is something that you're
interested in and purchasing as an
investment,
maybe that's for you because it has a a
low floor. You're really able to get in
there for $8. I think I saw quarter uh
bills that were also offered, so those
are probably three or four dollars would
be just my guess.
Uh you know, if if that's something that
you're looking into and potentially
trying to stack gold, that may be a
vehicle for you, but as far as
uh actual assets are concerned, if you
were to buy
a you know, an ounce of gold right now,
it would cost you $4,408
plus the spot fee from whichever uh
institution you decide to purchase it from. If you bought an ounce
worth of gold from Goldback at this
exchange rate, it would be $8,850.
» Ouch.
>> I I I've got something to say to that.
Uh
Take that take that
1 oz that you just bought and as a
merchant, you wanted to accept that.
How do you know that that's even a real
piece of gold?
And can you really break it down? And
most merchants won't have a $16,000
machine that can fractionalize that to
actually say it is a gold or not.
Another piece of that is most if you're truly looking to buy gold
that's a bullion buyer, gold backs
aren't for you and and we'll admit that.
Gold backs are bought to be to be spent
to be used
to fractionalize. No one fractionalizes
gold the way that we do and the cost of
fractionalize that is very expensive. So
there is a cost
to to making a fractional piece of gold.
So you know there there's a couple things there that if if you are
looking to do bullion, like go buy you
know gold coins or bars and hope for the
price it goes up and then you can sell
it but a typical
gold back buyer
is not a bullion buyer and from our
research, you know, we don't sell retail
so we [clears throat] don't have a lot
of end result data but the data that I
do have is you know, you know, we sold
probably 300 million of these and less
than 1% is ever returned.
Excuse me, less than 2% is ever
returned.
For exchange or to you know, to try to buy back or sell back. So
>> I applaud
>> And one other thing to keep in mind too
is yes it it is at double spot.
price is
maintained in your purchasing power. You
don't lose that spot price
on on your purchase. So if you bought it
for $8.85
Um could spend it for $8.85. You're not
losing. And yes, there's always a gamble
with precious metals. They could go up
or down.
But if you uh
look over the past 2 years, those who
have bought gold and silver have much
more purchasing power at that double
spot price than they do less
>> Um I I do understand what you're saying,
uh Councilman Ingle. The one thing I'm
looking at from a more of a 50,000-ft
level
is the potential for creating a parallel
economy in a time where
there's a potential [clears throat] for
the dollar to really tank. And
uh
it if you look at how gold and silver's
been used in other countries
to facilitate
uh trade and um
you know, general commerce in a time
when you start to see hyper-inflatable
dollars or if you have digital economy
and for some reason, for example, your
funds get frozen like the Canadian
truckers
then you [clears throat] you do have to
look at least that potential angle as to
um the freedom of purchase, the ability
to still
exist in an economy when
things go towards uh putting a chip in
your hand.
So, that's kind of where I'm looking at
it from.
>> Mr. Murray, I I know I appreciate your thought of alternative currency and
I I think that's a great idea. Um you
know, if we just I don't know if we
could pull it up, but if you look at the
history of the price of gold, right,
you'll see this radical spike over the
last 2 years.
>> Why do you think that's happening?
>> Well, I mean
without like getting super political,
market manipulation. That's
my simple answer. Um right? Uh
and and this is where my fear would
come, right? Is that large holders or or
folks who were potentially purchasing,
you know, with the hopes that it would
increase in value to make their large
purchase more more affordable,
the same time could get left holding the
bag.
>> I see what you're saying. I think
to navigate around that potentially,
you'd have to make sure that people knew
that,
you know, it's not
intended to be an investment, it's
intended to potentially stabilize a
local economy in a time of of need, and
it's not something people have to do.
>> Well, just just today, Mr. Mayor, you're
you if you were to to have had, you
know, let's say
an ounce worth or, you know, you would
have lost $32 today. The market
fluctuates daily, and I know that their
system is attached to that. And and so,
your your dollar's vary from day to day.
>> And and I I get that it's not a perfect
process, but I also get the fact that
our our dollar's being diluted.
It's going to continue to. The
government's already decided they're
going to print and print and print. It's
in their mandate of the Treasury now.
And so,
at what point do we hit a hyperinflation
event, and now
uh our citizens are coming up with a
wheelbarrow of cash to buy something
when they
could have had this other option that
stabilizes their family. So, I guess
that's where I'm at. I mean, I could be
completely crazy, off the rocker, but I
do think that it's something that having
it available in some way in our
community, and it doesn't have to be
through our city, it could be through,
you know, another um
community [clears throat] member putting
in the machine or ATM machine, but it is
something that,
you know, when you look at the general
direction of the currency, the amount of
printing that's going to continue to
happen.
Um
I'm very concerned for the community and
making sure that it stays stable.
So, that's kind of where I'm coming
from.
>> Mayor, may I ask a question?
>> Yeah.
>> Um so, for online, Kim or Phil or
Nathan, whoever wants to answer this.
Um
I was looking at the distributors uh
online and what distributors there are
and I didn't see, at least in our area
and going too far out of California, but
any city entities that were
distributors. Are there other city
governments that are are distributing
Goldbacks right now?
» This would be a first.
>> Okay.
Uh okay, and then so, we I I did see
that our closest one is in Riverbank.
It's an ATM. I meant to go try and find
it. I haven't quite uh found it yet. Is
there any uh private businesses in
Escalon or even closer to from the the
closest one to us that have had interest
in becoming distributors uh in town?
» I think that's a Phil question.
>> Okay.
>> Phil?
>> No, that's a By the way, there are other
municipalities
>> question. So,
>> That would be a Nathan or Brandon. I
don't know if Brandon's on here.
Um I can get you that information. I
don't have it readily at hand, um but I
can get that sent to Trevin and let you
know
who is near you.
>> I do know that when we had our last
meeting and and we were talking with
just Trevin, um there wasn't
anything a major distributor anywhere
too close to where you are.
>> Well, Riverbank is close. I mean, that's
a [clears throat] 12-minute, 15-minute
drive. It wouldn't be too bad to go get
those.
>> You're You're saying that there's a uh
gold ATM in Riverbank, is that right?
>> That's what the website's telling us
here, yeah.
>> Okay.
>> So we were just I'm my question is if
any businesses in town have expressed
interest in becoming distributors here.
» Not to my knowledge.
>> Okay.
Thank you.
>> Regardless of the how gold sign on the
vote
hopefully it'd be nice if you guys would
be
you know, still committed to coming and
talking to our local businesses about
the idea.
And
whether it goes left or right, it's up
to them, but at least I deliver an
option
for the future. So if it doesn't go the
way we want it to, then at least it's
off my conscience.
So
we want to put it out to the community.
Anyone out in the community like to talk
to this?
» [clears throat]
» I think
Councilman Engel had it on the nose.
It's speculation.
And individually, I speculate on certain
things. Everybody you know, has a chance
to do that. But if you decide to do
this, you're speculating with the entire
community's
money and not just
a few. Some people are going to be
totally against it. My biggest thought
is
like Councilman Engel pointed out
when but
maybe a year ago
5,500
for a ounce of gold
that was 44.
You know, it might go back up, it might
go back down. But if you look at the
history of gold
it's one of these.
And it's basically has followed the
dollar, too. And I agree that the dollar
is in sad shape. But,
there's there's too much speculation, I
think, to take on for a city government
and taxpayer money.
>> Appreciate that.
Anyone else? Oh, never mind. Anyone else
like to speak to this topic at all?
right. Bring it back to the dais.
>> I have a question, actually, for
city attorney, but he left. So,
I'll ask the the city manager.
Um
Have we confirmed that there are no
um
legal
issues
if the city of Escondido were to become
a distributor distributor for
essentially what is
a private business?
>> Yeah, I think there would be more luck
if if the the council decided to yes,
explore this, um we would go through the
contracting greater detail. We would do
our end of the research. We have not
done that research up front. If the
council didn't want to explore it, we
don't want to waste time and money on
um something that the council wasn't
interested in. So, yes, we would dot our
eyes and cross our t's um prior to final
execution.
>> Maybe the [clears throat] better answer
is just not to do it through the
government.
>> Yeah, Mr.
>> That was going to be my suggestion. But,
you know, if maybe the EDC could, you
know, set a small portion aside to
explore businesses that may be
interested. It seems more like an an an
independent decision, um rather than a
city-based decision, which, you know,
potentially could put us in harm's way.
But, Mr. Mayor, again, I do appreciate
uh your attention to uh
what's happening financially in the
United States. And and as I I know that
you already do, but just to say it
publicly, you know, I would encourage
some exploration in the digital currency
as well. It's not a commitment, but
exploration.
>> Yeah, I I I don't have a problem with
digital, just so you're aware.
Um
because
it does make things more convenient at
times. However,
yeah, we saw it with the Canadian
truckers how
you can get shut down digitally,
right? So, it's not a leap to think that
our government is going sideways, in my
opinion,
uh could very easily do things
that aren't in our best interest,
and down the road we're um eating out of trash can cuz you
can't get your money.
You know, so so those are the kind of
things I don't know. I'll
keep it to myself at this point, but I
do think that it's something that every
person should really be opening their
eyes and kind of
doing their due diligence. It's It's
important.
>> All right, he's back. Can I ask my
question again?
>> Yep.
>> I'm sorry.
>> Thanks, Frank.
>> I had no idea.
So, so my question is
um to
what
Council Member Angle mentioned,
is there any sort of legal concern for
essentially what the city becoming a
distributor for a
private business, and could there any be
could there be the potential for any
sort of long-term
exposure or risk to the city if so if
say somebody comes and invests in gold
backs,
could they come back to the city of
Escalon and say, "Well, you're the
distributor. I bought it for you, and I
didn't get the return on investment that looking for, so therefore
you should be
held partially responsible for that as
well.
>> It could if you look at it as an
investment.
>> [laughter]
>> Right?
>> Yeah, I mean I would just say this is
America, so you can sue anybody over
anything at any time.
Um
if you are if the city's going to if the
city's going to act as a private actor
in the pri- private marketplace, it's
going to expose itself to all the suites
of claims, damages, lawsuits than any
business would. So, you are adding risk.
And what I would say is this,
um that kind of risk is not insurable.
We have uh we have um
general we don't have we don't have
insurance. Cities don't have insurance,
but they have something like insurance,
okay? For our purposes, I'm going to
call it insurance.
Um and it covers your slip-and-fall
uh general liability type risk that
cities normally operate in. If we are
now operating in the private sector,
we would
our our joint powers authority wouldn't
cover that risk.
>> I I guess what I would ask if the guy
asked is just a table this, and then um
if I could get the contact information
of the people up there, uh maybe I'll
pursue it through my own uh endeavors
outside of the city.
Uh that would probably be better.
Um is that is it possible to get your
contact information?
It doesn't have to be over the phone or
over the
>> Yes, we can get it to you.
>> Okay, I really appreciate it.
>> And and and and also, man, I want to
kind of follow up on what you're what
you were talking about digital currency
is
uh
I was at a conference in Canada about
two about a 18 months ago. It was after
the North Carolina floods. I don't know
if you remember that, where everything
uh just collapsed. No internet, no
power.
And I had ran into two guys in Canada
that were at that helping clean up, and
they said, "We saw your currency being
used as it should have." No, they were
bartering with for milk, for gas, for
eggs with the gold backs. And that
that's truly one of the main purposes of of our fractional gold. It you can use it to barter for such things
in in in
instances where you're not going to have
power.
Cuz it inevitably will happen to us.
Digital currency will not be able to be
used.
This is this and and gold over the test
of time has held its held held its
power.
Um they used this way thousands and
thousands of years ago for for payment
and for bartering. So,
we appreciate you guys looking at gold
back. We really do. We think it's a
great uh could be a great part of your
community uh for whatever choice or
whichever way you go down in the but we
do appreciate your time that you helped
uh uh put into gold back.
>> Okay. I'll appreciate your time and um
unless the dais has any other thoughts
>> I have one more.
>> Okay, please.
>> No, I just wanted to state that I am a
big supporter of parallel currency uh
separate from the Fed and Fed separate
from the government. Um I don't
necessarily feel like this is separate
from the government having them be a
distributor as much as I trust our city
government, but it separate from the
government would be uh where this would
be. And I
>> Makes sense.
>> I I do support the parallel currency and
I really like the idea of gold backs in
general, but probably not uh through the
city of Escondido.
>> I'm sorry.
>> Yeah.
>> Councilman Nico
>> Yeah, Mr. If there were truly a
destabilization event that were to take
place in our area,
it's it's the immediate trade and barter
that this would affect, right? We're
talking minutes or hours while grocery
store shelves or
stock piles reduced. After that, we
we're talking a supply chain issue. So,
I think that, you know, while there is,
you know, a potential use for that in a
barter situation and and in the
immediate, um one, you know, uh
early adopters would be at an advantage.
The the majority of our community who
probably wouldn't adopt in that would be
kind of left out in the cold and it
would be a have and have not situation,
which I think
in a destabilization event, chaos would
ensue, but the fact that some people are
uh not not being treated equitably would
create additional destabilization
in a small community. Uh it's just my my
guess. I hope that we never ever see
this and we're just we're just talking
in hopes of preparation for a worst case
scenario.
But, I
if we're completely off the grid, the
stores aren't going to be able to
reorder, phones aren't going to work,
internet's not going to work. Like, it's
what you have on hand.
>> Uh-huh.
>> And that's that's if you go and and talk
to the people that have already
experienced that from other countries,
uh gold and silver saved them.
So, it's just something to be aware of.
We don't have to talk about it anymore.
Um
Can we go ahead and table it?
If everyone's good with that. Table?
Okay.
>> Sure.
>> All right, we'll go on to number
10.
Thank you, Barry.
>> Uh this is a continuation of an item
that was discussed at the last meeting
uh in regard to a specific request to
attend a conference. At that time, uh
council directed staff to come back and
put a broader framework or a policy
around um council member travel for
training purposes, for networking
purposes.
And so, this item presents that travel
policy.
Um
What we also mentioned at the last
meeting is if there was desired by the
council to uh adopt a slate. Um so, some
indication, some not that um generally
Council would like to attend X number of
sessions and X number of council members
per session so that we are more
transparent to the community. We are
helping the budget process so we're
aware
and
you know Council members can plan their
vacations and meetings and and other
things around that.
It just be more transparent I think for
everyone.
Um, so what we've also done in the staff
report is look at I'll say six. We've
included five in the staff report but I
was reminded of one later.
So in the staff report there are three
from Cal Cities which is the primary
body associated
with kind of Council member and staff
training in California.
It is a lobbying group. Their overall
stated mission is to really support the
local communities cities in particular
you know against the state and and
federal government.
Of course
we're a big state. We have communities
as small as a couple hundred up to you
know several million
and everywhere in between and so
ideologically we are different as well
and so so is Cal Cities right as an
organization for sure.
But they do provide you know what I
would call generally
politically neutral content for Council
members and
staff.
There's also a couple of economic based
groups that are out there and we've
highlighted a couple of conferences.
One's the California Economic Summit by
Cal Forward and then Cal Ed just
California Economic Development
Corporation basically, is the Rural
Economic Development Exchange.
The one that I omitted
was the One Voice trip, which was
discussed and raised by a Council Member
Engel and attended most recently by
Council Member Stroman.
That is a lobbying effort at the cog
level, the regional level, the county
level,
particularly around transportation
projects.
So, this was a a new endeavor for the
City of Escalon to attend that
and really put us
a bit on the map in terms of of that
effort.
So, staff in the staff report presented
kind of five or six options for the
Council to consider. Of course, that
doesn't have to be 100%. We walked
through the policy that if there was one
off that made sense within the framework
of the policy that was adopted, if it is
adopted, those could be brought up.
And so, I can just walk through the
policy a little bit.
Maybe if we can go to attachment one,
scroll down a bit.
It is three-page, I think, policy. We
start with a policy purpose purpose and
statement. A few of
There's a few blanks left for the
Council to really weigh in on
[clears throat]
their thoughts on training and travel as
it pertains to Council members.
And we talk about authorization. We talk
about, you know, kind of needing Council
approval,
but working within the kind of slate, if
that is adopted. We talk about eligible
expenses,
particularly registration and lodging.
There's a preference for that to be done
with a city credit card
just to will
any potential for over reimbursement,
questions or concerns with
reimbursement, um something that that
went wrong.
Um in that section, we talk about
overnight stays and a strong preference
for not having an overnight stay if it's
a one-day trip or one-day travel.
We talk about um the council really
committing to be good fiscal stewards
and not um
staying longer than absolutely needed.
Uh we talk about transportation and
essentially the four transportation
options using the seat city vehicle,
which is the least costly, airfare,
rental vehicle, or personal vehicle. Um
again, we talk about being um making the
most logical but economical choice in
um
in the transportation.
Um it doesn't say you have to go with
the lowest choice cuz there will be
extenuating circumstances occasionally.
Um
And so, we we talk about just being good
fiscal stewards. We talk about meals,
um really trying to use the conference
meals if there are to minimize um the
outlay by the city. We talk about the
proximate uh process for reimbursement.
Talk about prohibited expenses.
And then we talk about report back. So,
if a council member attends a
conference, uh at the next council
meeting or thereafter, really reporting
back what was learned, uh what was
gained, why it was important, that type
of thing. Um not only for the rest of
the council members to kind of learn
from that, but also to share with the
community kind of the benefits um from
that particular endeavor.
And then audits. We talk in here and we
want to make it, you know, known that um
periodically or as needed, um finance
department will audit any
reimbursements, any travel, just to
ensure that it is following the policy.
Um so, that is a thumbnail sketch of the
drafted policy. Happy to answer any
questions that the council may have. Uh
also happy to take direction on changes,
tweaks, modifications um that the
council would like to see really for for
their travel policy, travel
[clears throat] and training.
>> Uh any questions up here?
>> I I just have one statement.
Uh and that's for the um the mayor and
council member academy, so the every odd year. So uh just my opinion, I
think that should be mandatory for
incoming council members
to give them that opportunity to
get that broader view of what other uh
city representatives are doing and give
them the opportunity to to network so
they have uh
ears and eyes to pull from as as they go
through their tenure.
>> I'll I'd say I I if not mandatory, at
least highly recommended.
Um
>> Highly recommend. I'm on board with
that. Sure.
>> Yeah, highly recommend. I assumed you're
going, why wouldn't you be?
Um but I even returning
you get a lot out of that. There there
the legal updates and uh issue updates
every 2 years of what's current right
now. So you have all of the um
different assemblies for those and and
whatnot. So there's a lot of great
education in that. But uh
>> I feel like you guys are kind of beating
me up here and I just want to say there
was no availability when I got elected,
okay?
>> [laughter]
>> You were late and we will not hopefully
we won't be late again.
>> [clears throat]
>> I might be I might be in the minority
here, which is fine. I I just don't I
just can't get behind spending the money
for
these things. Uh
I just think it puts a target on our
back. It's a networking thing. Um
It's just my opinion.
But uh like I said
um I can see where you could go network
and do that kind of thing, but
yeah.
I think these are things you can do
online yourself, zooms, all that kind of
stuff, but that's my opinion.
I don't know. You guys have any
thoughts?
>> Yeah, actually, but
sounds like council member Cagle is
getting ready to
>> Yeah, I'll go first.
I I
don't want to 100% you know discourage
us networking with with other you know
cities, other areas,
you know, other council members, mayors,
you know, whatnot. I don't think that
necessarily you know puts a target on
our back. I don't think
I understand you what your your point of
view there that the more exposure that a
small town like ours has to larger
cities more opportunity for a larger
city to say, "Hey, they got a lot a lot
of land. Why don't we go try and develop
over there?"
And I think that's kind of
[clears throat]
you know your your line of thinking
there. I do think that there is you know
definitely
some advantage to be had in you know
hearing other points of view, things
that they're looking at, things that
they're talking about, things they're
doing in their cities.
So I I I don't think you know it should
be a a blanket you know no we shouldn't
you know allow X, Y, or Z, but I
definitely do think there should be a
limitation.
Council member Eagles suggestion of a of
a mandatory
apparently
all three of you seem to have thought
that you got something really good out
of that when you went.
Right.
>> I guess what I'm looking at is like how
much
can't you get the same out of a zoom
meeting?
>> But you you can attend these things
virtually.
The the the things that they're talking
about you can't attend virtually and
you know I I will say you know I I work
in a a completely remote environment. I
see you know my actual co-workers I may
see them twice a year you know in total.
You know those moments definitely build
the relationships a lot more than you
know the phone calls and the Zoom
meetings. So,
uh I do think that there is an advantage
to in-person
uh attendance, as well. Um anyway, I
[clears throat] I I do like, you know,
the the suggestion, you know, that you
know, whatever it is that you guys, you
know, got out of that that you thought
was so beneficial. Uh I mean, I'd sure
like to to get my hands on it, as well.
Uh and I think that, you know, if it's
something that is that beneficial, um
let me ask you, do you is that something
that we should be like on a rotation of,
you know, council members, you know, if
they're, you know, elected to do a
second term, should they they also be
attending it again?
Is it
>> It's my opinion that they should. So,
because of the updates, the legal
updates, the issue updates, like, for
example, 2 years ago, data centers
wouldn't be in the conversation.
Right? And flock cameras wouldn't be in
the conversation. And now we have those
updates, where we'll be able to get more
information on what these things are,
and it's not just from your Instagram
reels. And like, it's actual information
of what contracts say, and how do they
affect cities, and how they go in and go
out, and how decisions are made. So, um
>> Well, that's stuff you can
>> So, the same way as I go to other
conferences for other professional, you
know, your real estate conferences every
year, they have legal updates. Like,
things are done different. The contracts
change here and there. So, um
that's why I would think every 2 years
it is nice to go and get those issue
updates and legal updates.
>> Well, I I would think that um you know,
those kind of updates you're you're
talking about are also going to, you
know, alert us to things that may be
coming down the pipeline that we may not
be unaware of,
uh you know, as a council, you know, or
that that staff, you know, may slipped
underneath their radar at some point,
you know, that kind of thing.
Uh you know, so, I think there you know,
there is a possibility of of being able
to stay, you know, ahead of a problem
uh if you're getting information from
those kind of sources. So, that's, you
know, my take on it. Like I said, I've
never attended any of these things,
aside from uh you know, the the one
thing that I mentioned our our last
discussion about this.
Um So, I don't have a a big scope to to
go on there, but I think that we should
definitely do this on a limited level.
We shouldn't be just wasting tax
dollars, you know, flying all over the
country and and you know, doing
attending everything that pops up.
But I do think that some of these things
probably are
maybe not necessary, but should be
encouraged just to be sure that we are
staying up to date with the the newest
things and making, you know, contacts
and
you know, that sort of thing you know,
with other communities that are similar.
There are similar communities out there
that we may be the only Echelon, but
there are other little towns that are just like us in in a lot of fashions
and forms.
>> I really think that was the largest
benefit for that Cal Cities meeting was
to be able to network with
several small communities similar to our
own in in one visit.
There was a lot that was learned
at least by myself and and you know, I
think there's a lot of energy coming
into it when you still have, you know,
hopes and dreams of being a public
servant until they're kind of dashed and
stomped on by the reality of the
service. Um
you know, if if I could say one
or make one suggestion and I think that
the policy and everything looks great
and all of us may have different ideas
or intentions on things we'd like to
further educate ourselves about. I would
just throw it out there that the council had potential to to do one
event per year per council member and
that kind of gives them the opportunity
to
go to the one that they want to or or
maybe kind of team up. I know if if for
whatever reason I I do win my seat
and I stay on cog, I will definitely,
you know, be attending next year's one
voice trip. So, that would be my I okay,
I want to go to that one. But for
everybody else, I mean, I think we heard
feedback from uh both uh Councilman
Walker and Stroman uh about their desire
to to visit this um
annual conference. So, you know, I
think, you know, one a year per council
member is is a um
kind of a a fair and balanced, you know,
offering.
Uh any other thoughts on this side
before we go out to public?
>> So,
briefly,
um
actually I have a question.
So, this may be getting in the weeds a
little bit too much, uh but when it
comes to vehicles, what's not mentioned
is um
insurance.
And so, I would just would like to some
sort of clarification as far as
if there is
if you use a personal vehicle, does the
city's insurance
cover you?
Uh if you use a rental vehicle,
are you required to buy the the rental
the rip-off rental car insurance?
Um
but the other thing that I that I want
to mention and and
Mayor, I understand your perspective
about um
couldn't you just jump on a Zoom?
There are I can speak from experience.
There are many many
uh networking possibilities
um
for
mayors and council members within Cal
Cities.
However,
um
there's also something that we said
about networking, meeting face-to-face.
For example,
um
at the Mayor and Council Members Academy
that
Councilman Angle and Councilman Walker,
myself, and former Mayor Bellinger
attended,
um we met with representatives from City
Riverbank
and developed those connections.
And I think most people realize um
City Riverbank has a very big
um
ballot measure coming in November.
And uh with River the potential for
Riverwalk.
And through networking opportunities
um
I can't speak for Councilmember Engler Councilmember or Mayor Pro Tem
Walker.
But I made a phone call to those
representatives within the city of
Riverbank that I developed a
relationship with at the Mayor and
Councilmember Academy and I said
"Hell no, we don't need this Riverwalk
community. Do you realize
how much it's going to affect the city
of Escalon?"
And if I would have picked up the phone
and just did a cold call, they would
have probably been like, "Who the heck
are you?"
But but the power of networking and
building those relationships
I mean, let's face it. Every small city
and similar to the city of Escalon
is dealing with the exact same issues
that we are with the state of
California. And I truly believe that
there's strength in numbers and how we
can work together to push back.
>> I I see what you're saying. I'm just
saying
when you start swimming with the sharks,
just don't be surprised if you get bit.
Okay, so
that's all I got to say from my my side
of it. But
>> Okay.
>> Like I said, I I was probably in the
minority on that.
I figured I was.
>> It's okay.
» Been there many times.
Okay.
>> Um can I go out to the public?
>> Sure.
>> Uh public, anyone like to speak on this
subject at all?
Gary, there's Gary.
>> [clears throat]
>> twice in a row.
Having set your seat and Councilman
Engler hit
>> think the basic issue is education.
And when you go to that first-time
council member and mayors education,
they're going to let it the new guy, new
gal, new person
know,
this is your job.
One, two, whatever.
This is not your job. One through
whatever. And almost as important as
knowing what your job is, you need to
know what your job is not. And people
coming, you know, like all of us did the
first time walk in, we don't know how to
be a councilman.
You know, we're we're there for, you
know, to serve the public, but there's a
lot of pitfalls you can get yourself
into.
Especially they go through the Brown
Act.
I think everybody is required to take
Brown Act education now, but that gives
you
a foot in the door. You know, I like
except for first-time council people,
it's I think it should be mandatory or
strongly suggested.
Cuz you got to know what you can and
cannot do.
» All right. Anyone else out there?
No?
All right, bring it back to Oh, sorry,
online.
Okay, bring it back to the dais.
Any last thoughts or does anyone want to
Excuse [clears throat] me, humor a
motion.
>> No, I just want to know if Gary thinks
I'm doing a bad job cuz I didn't go to
this thing.
>> [laughter]
>> No, but the tutorial is very nice.
Like it really is. It And and Jaylen
wasn't here at the time. We weren't
doing briefings when we got here. So you
had the benefit of when you got here,
did a great briefing with staff, did a
great job on that.
>> 2 hours of quality time with Frank
instead of a meeting in Sacramento.
[laughter]
>> But it was really nice to go through
that.
At the time, Frank's team actually led
the legal
seminar. Very They made it very
interesting. It wasn't as boring as
>> It's not [clears throat] easy to do.
>> Yeah, you know, and
no, it was like Gary said, it was a very
good experience. The the tutorial of
what what to do and what not to do kind
of.
Um
You're not doing a bad job.
>> [laughter]
>> Okay.
>> I just want to say I know that Council
Engel said one per year.
I'm more on the mayor's and council
member academy plus one per year is more
of where I'm leaning on that one.
I don't know if we're defining how many
at this point either.
>> The entire council or incoming members
just so I'm clear.
>> Entire council.
>> Every two years?
>> Highly No, just allowed to so I guess
recommend highly recommended for new.
Highly recommended for everybody really
and then uh
plus allowance for one more per year.
>> I could get on board with that.
Do you have any more thoughts on this
side?
We have a motion on anything or just
still
>> Do we need Okay.
>> Still deliberating.
I'll move to approve the city council
travel and training policy
with the stipulation of um
attendance
at the mayor and council member academy
um
strongly encouraged
as well as one other additional event.
Um
keeping in mind that these are taxpayer
dollars and to be good financial
stewards
of these monies.
>> I'll second it just because that last
writer you put on there.
>> Just a point of clarification. The one
the mayor's and council member academy
is once every two years.
>> Right.
>> And you said one other conference, is
that annually or is that also once every
two years?
>> Annually.
>> Okay, so the one other annually and the
mayors and council members, got it.
Okay, just to make it clear.
>> Okay.
Uh,
all in favor say I.
>> I.
>> All opposed say nay.
>> One nay.
» We'll go to the next one.
Okay.
That's a number 11.
>> Number 11.
>> All right,
last item.
So, uh, this item also being brought
forward, uh,
from an agenda item request by council
members, and I believe largely stemming
from some questions, comments, uh, from
the community.
And so, I'll turn it over in a in a bit
to chief who will go through the full
presentation outline outlining some
candid pros and cons,
um, for the technology. And we're
talking about kind of digital
surveillance and, um, automatic license
plate readers.
So, we understand that communities are
the embodiment of ideals and values of
the residents.
So, to this end, we take, uh, requests
to review, uh, procedures, piece of
technology or equipment very seriously.
Uh, we further understand that certain
technologies, approaches, or equipment
can be viewed differently over time,
um, based on new information, changes in
priorities, or changes in the
community's ideals and values. And
again, to that end, uh, we understand
that our role is to ex- execute the
community's will led by the council.
Um, we further know that we cannot fully
guard against the future or what every
person will do with the tools at their
disposal. Uh, what we can do is secure
tools and work with the tools we have to
maintain the community that the
residents appreciate, like, value
love in some cases.
So, similar to radar technologies that
was recently just implemented in
vehicles, Flock cameras were a tool
acquired based on input from the
community and have been used to address
the issues of the community.
Um they've been used to solve crimes and
we think probably are used to deter even
more crimes.
Um but of course we welcome the
conversation
about this technology, about the extent
of use, about the pros and the cons.
And so with that I'll turn it over to
Chief to go through the presentation.
» So, um
automated automated
to be automated license plate readers.
So, this is going to cover kind of what
they are and what they are how they work
and how they're used.
» You didn't give it back, huh?
» I I did click it for you though.
» So, ALPR stands for automated license
plate readers. The technology lies in
the software, not necessarily in the
cameras. The only thing that ALPRs do is
it'll take a picture, it scans that
picture for the presence of a vehicle
and presence of a license plate. It'll
document features of that it'll
categorize the vehicle into a category
so it can be searched and it'll
translate the license plate to text so
it can be uh
easily searched.
Uh Escalon currently has five ALPR
cameras. They were installed following a
critical incident that occurred in
October of 2022, which was the shooting
at Family Dollar. It was brought up uh council meeting that the city should
explore them and look into them. It was
explored and they were installed in June
of 2023 and the two on
Highway 120 Caltrans permitting took a
lot longer. So those were installed 6
months later.
So what is ALPR data? So this is an
actual read of what an officer would
get. This is a city truck. This is the
truck I drive. Uh
on a hit, what you'll get is the date
and the time of a read, the image of a
vehicle, uh
that it will be categorized so it can be
searched. So if you search black truck,
this would pop up.
Uh and then a zoomed image of the
license plate. And then And then next to
the zoomed image of the license plate is
the license plate translated to text. So
uh and the location of the camera. The
first thing that happens as soon as a a
read is made, it is the license plate is
checked against a hot list, which uh
primarily in uh in Escalon, what we use
is what we have is uh stolen vehicles
and missing persons. So let's say a
vehicle comes back stolen, we get an
alert that it's a stolen vehicle. We'll
take a look at the hit. The first thing
we do is look at the license plate and
then look at the license plate number
that it read. Uh
say one out of 10 times,
it's a false read where it read the
license plate plate wrong, you just
ignore it.
How ALPR data is used. Uh initially, it
was used to find stolen vehicles.
They're positioned to capture vehicles
coming into town.
Um so we get a hit of a stolen vehicle
and then we can go to that area, see if
we can find the stolen vehicle. Uh now
we use we use them a lot more to uh as
investigative tools for cases.
Uh an investigative tool for cases where
we search through the uh where we can
search for suspect vehicles.
Uh
let's say a
burglary is committed over in a
residential neighborhood. There's not
really any leads. We got video
surveillance We got rings of video
surveillance of a person and a vehicle.
We got no license plate number. It we
can't identify who the person is. We can
take that vehicle description and then
we can run it through Flock to see if we
can find it coming into town. Uh if
we're able to possibly identify it,
that'll give us a license plate number,
which would give us the registered
owner. And that does not mean that the
registered owner is the suspect. It
doesn't even always mean that the
registered owner that that vehicle was
involved in the crime. We still have a
lot of investigation to do to tie the
person to the crime. We don't arrest
registered owners of vehicles because
their vehicle was identified and
involved in the crime. Uh
we use investigative tools.
We investigate further to determine
whether or not an actual person was
identify the person who committed the
crime.
And it can also be used as an
exculpatory evidence.
There was a great case shortly after we
first got them.
There was a guy walking by uh
walking by the high school.
There's a gun sitting on the bed of a
vehicle.
Just a handgun.
Plain view. It's in the afternoon.
Uh
we get there.
For sure it's a real gun. Seems like
it's been sitting there for a while. And
we go and contact the school. We
identify who the truck belonged to. We
identify who the kid was. The gun is
registered to his father.
And
by all indications, it seemed like the
kid brought the gun to school. He was
probably showing it off at lunchtime,
left it on the trunk of left it on the bed of the vehicle.
He was adamant that, "No, I don't know
how it got there. I was shooting over
the weekend on my property, and I don't
know how it got there. I must have left
it there." His claim was that he drove
into town, and it must have been on
there as he drove into town.
We're able to run it through the Flock.
Sure enough, there's the
image of his vehicle driving into town.
You can clearly see the gun on the
tonneau cover.
If not for the Flock cameras, he
probably would have been expelled, been
arrested. This kid's life could have
been ruined. It was It was completely
exonerated by the Flock cameras. So,
they're not just used to incriminate
people. They can also be used to
exonerate people and provide exculpatory
evidence.
Uh mistakes and misuse.
Not going to lie, they do happen. So,
from what I've uh this data, the oldest one that I found on this uh
that indicated is 2018. Most of them are
from '23, '24, and '25. So, in the past
3 to 4 years,
give or take a couple more, uh
there've been uh 148 documented
incidents of mistakes or
just misuse. There are approximately
18,000 law enforcement agencies that
employ over 750,000 law enforcement
officers.
Over 5,000 agencies use ALPRs with an
estimated 120,000 deployed uh from 2008
uh in the to deployed. From 2008 to uh
present, 148 documented incidents of
mistakes or misuse. Most of the errors
occur with uh
officers putting vehicles, wanted
vehicles onto a hot list, and not
updating it. Uh I've since updated our
policy to make it to where they can uh
they have to expire after 4 days, and
they can renew them, but they have to
stay on top of it to make sure that
they're you don't have old lists in hot
lists.
The other ones are a lot of
maliciousness. Mostly officers
looking up exes, girlfriends, husbands,
boyfriends, and
people that they're trying to date. Most
of the
all of the misuse and stalking,
uh the officers have either resigned or
been fired, and in many of the cases,
they've been prosecuted. So, it is
something that
happens, and when it happens, officers
are held accountable, and many times
they're actually prosecuted in court for
violations. So, there safeguards are
already in place to prevent that, and
they are used.
So, all officers have an individual
account that tracks searches. For all
searches, officers must include the
following information. They have to
include the offense type, which the
crime being investigated, a case number
or an incident number, and then the
reason for the search. They're looking
for a suspect vehicle, looking for a
wit- a victim vehicle, witnesses,
missing persons.
They have to indicate why, and
all it's tracked on it's all tracked,
and it can be audited. So, if there's
any question, we can say, "Okay, this
officer looked up this license plate
number, or did a search." cuz it's not
always a license plate number. "This
officer did a search for this case
number." We can easily go back and look
up that incident, or look up that case,
and make sure that uh
that was a legit search. And I've
recently implemented that they also must
now uh There are times where you get a
license plate, you run a license plate,
but it's not the license plate you're
looking for.
>> [clears throat]
>> That now has to be documented in their
report why they ran every single license
plate that they run. If they run a li-
uh
search for a specific license plate, not
just uh
for like make, model, color.
And as noted before, to prevent outdated
hot lists, uh
they can no longer keep have a hot list
entry valid for more than 4 days.
For the features of Flock, the data is
100% owned by uh by us, by the Escalon
Police Department or City of Escalon. We
choose who we share it with, who has
access to that. Uh as of right now, we
share with multiple other law
enforcement agencies, and that's it.
Private customers never have access to
uh Flock uh governmental Flock data. So,
even if a private entity wanted to
access or wanted to share with us, it
wouldn't even be able to send a share
request.
Flock automatically deletes and
overwrites data after 30 days. So, after
30 days, they delete it, and it's not
only deleted, it's immediately written
over, so that data cannot be recovered.
And there are search filters as we went
over before that require the reason it
for the access with the permanent audit
log that we can go back and track.
So, fact versus myth.
LPRs can track people and show police
everywhere they go.
Myth, the fact is LPRs take a
point-in-time image of a vehicle
traveling on a public roadway, which are
deleted after 30 days. And you've
already seen exactly what a hit would
look like. Then myth, LPRs violate the
Fourth Amendment. Appellate and district
courts in at least 14 states, including
the 9th Circuit, which is the most
liberal, and the 11th Circuit, which is
the most conservative, have upheld using
evidence from LPRs as constitutional
without requiring a warrant.
Myth, Flock sells customer data,
compiling all of it into a national
database.
Uh the fact is, we own 100% of our data,
and Flock does not sell it. And then we
decide what agencies we want to share it
with, and there are laws that also
govern that. In the state of California,
we are prohibited from sharing our data
with federal agencies, other states, and
unlawful to be used for any type of
reproductive right stuff.
>> [snorts]
>> Uh myth, Flock LPRs use facial
recognition. Uh they do not use facial
recognition, and the system cannot be
used to search for human
characteristics.
And then the myth is LPRs don't have an
impact on crime. So, San Diego Mayor
Todd Gloria attributed a 20% decline in
auto theft to Flock. San Francisco Mayor
Daniel Lorey credited Flock LPRs for the
41% decrease in auto theft while
increasing arrests for auto theft cases
by 46%.
Flock has been used to solve 30% of
homicides in Oakland and San Diego. So,
after reading this, I decided I'mma do a
quick search of our stats. So, the chart
is Echelon stats. So, a 10851 is the uh
offense code for a stolen vehicle.
In 2020, we had 21 cases with 10851 uh
listed as an offense.
And 21, we had 16, then 10, then 14, 11,
5, and 3, and so on. And then in the
same year, it I compared the arrests for
10851 or 496D, which 496D is a penal
code for possession of stolen vehicle.
If you can't prove a person stole a
vehicle, you would charge them with a
496D.
So,
in 2020, we had four arrests, then six
arrests, then five arrests, and then uh
the amount of cases with arrests because
some Some cases you have multiple uh
multiple arrests per case.
So, if you look, uh 10-851 reports are
kind of up there, kind of declining, but
then kind of drops, then goes up, then
goes down. In 2024, we had 11 uh 10-851
reports
or 11 stolen vehicle reports,
uh 15 people arrested for theft vehicle
theft, and then out of 13 cases, and
that was the first year or full year we
had uh Flock cameras.
were installed in 2003,
the following year we got in a spike in
arrests, and then the following year our
10-851 or our vehicle theft reports have
dropped precipitously along with our
arrests. So, there was a huge spike, and
the word got around, and [snorts] we're
not getting hit with uh vehicle theft
like
we used to be. So, there is
quantifiable data that after Flock
cameras are installed, you do have an
increase in vehicle theft arrests, and
we have also seen that a drop in vehicle
theft.
Then data protection. So, Flock uses
state-of-the-art framework with
end-to-end encryption and uses the same
level of protection of DoD servers.
Uh They paid a top penetrating
penetration testing firm to attempt to
hack their system, which it failed.
Employers It also employs a hacker
bounty program where people are
encouraged to try to find potential
exploits with their system. They bring
those exploits to Flock's attention, and
they'll actually pay them uh for that
information rather so they can fix it
rather than have the information have
somebody get in and leak
Questions?
>> [clears throat]
>> Well, Chief, this is kind of where I'm
coming from and I think I've already
told you before
Um, and I want to Sorry.
>> You running? Okay.
>> Uh
>> [clears throat]
[snorts]
>> I do think that there's some validities
to some to some of these technologies,
but I do think there needs to be
guardrails on them.
Uh
That being said
you [clears throat] know, there needs to
be a citizen In my opinion, there needs
to be a citizen oversight committee on
this
that has an auditing process to make
sure that's really what's going on. Do I
trust our police? Absolutely. I think
you guys do a great job. But at some
point you're not going to be there if
you retire or whatever. Heaven forbid
it's an accident or something, right?
So, we don't [clears throat]
I don't want to see these things
encroaching into our community any more
than they already are on the outside of
town. Okay, but I I don't think we need
to be having 1984 with cameras on every
corner. You know what I'm saying? So
you know, there's there's what we call a
price for freedom and freedom's not
free. So, you do have to take some
degree of risk to be a free individual,
right? So
my [snorts] my feeling is that um
because [clears throat] the uh Chat Tree
um
uh Supreme Court decision on geofencing
uh
showing that it's a fourth vi- fourth
amendment violation
uh my concern is that this is going to
go to the Supreme Court and be held to
the same same situation because the
nature of the the way that they won that
lawsuit.
That being said, in the meantime
I reason I brought it here was because I
want to make [clears throat] sure
that there's oversight that as a
community we're not allowing it to
encroach any further.
Uh that [clears throat]
the software updates
uh as much as I know you're saying that
they're just license plate readers,
which I get.
Um [clears throat] I'm sure you're aware
that there are softwares
uh that do use facial recognition, auto
audio, all that stuff can be uplinked.
Yeah, they already do it in China. It's
a technology is available. So, we need
to make sure
>> [clears throat]
>> that
if you're just using it for that,
I personally have no problem with it.
But, if you're using it uh
in a way that Big Brother's coming in on
you, or the state, or the nation
national level, they're able to
go through your information and and and
then have pre-crime,
that that's a concern for me as far as
the Fourth Amendment process is
concerned. So,
my personal feeling is we need to have
a oversight committee. We need to have
uh hopefully language that would say
we're not going to encroach into the
city any further, and that software
updates would be limited to license
plate readers with no other technology
upgraded into it.
That's kind of where I'm coming from.
Um I don't know how everyone else feels.
>> Um since I I guess co-sponsored bringing
this up here,
um
first you said something in your
presentation I want to ask specifically,
what agencies are we sharing this
information with?
>> Uh
I'd have to look up, but there are
several agencies.
>> I I mean, is is it beyond
county, local law enforcement, PDs?
>> It is state.
>> Are we sharing it with the federal government, I guess it is?
>> No. So, there are laws that prohibit uh
California entities from sharing ALPR
data with um
with federal agencies, or with uh
non-California agencies. So, we couldn't
even share with Nevada. We could only
share interstate, and we see everybody
that we share with, and we see everybody
who uh
can share with us, and we can
remove people at will, and they can
remove us.
>> Found a California law that I actually
appreciate. Uh that's great. Um so,
here's my my take on these things, and
uh obviously, you know, when they went
up around town, you know, at first, you
know, really they kind of went up with,
you know, not many people noticing, and
they recently have been noticed, and
we've been getting a lot of uh
conversations from the community about
it. Um my experience goes a little
further than that because of what I do
for a living, um I can actually do a
ALPR search on a vehicle based on its
license plate number, uh VIN number,
etc. And I have seen photos of vehicles
sitting in their driveway, uh and not
one, but seven or eight photos where the
car has been shot in its own driveway
multiple times by a police car driving
by. Uh
I know that we don't have those on our
vehicles, uh
and part of the reason, you know, why I
am, you know, on board with bringing
this agenda item uh forward for us to
have this discussion, is that I want to
be sure that we don't ever get there.
That's not something that I think should
be happening, and that I I 100% believe
should be a Fourth Amendment violation.
You are looking in someone's property at
their vehicle. Uh I absolutely do not
support that for any law enforcement
agency to be doing.
They're doing it looking for stolen
vehicles.
Uh
>> Go ahead.
>> If I can clarify, so I think you're you
probably use Vigilant.
>> Uh I don't know what company it is that
we I requested through uh my
>> Originally, ALPR was um
Vigilant was the big pioneer in ALPR
technology, and their primary thing
wasn't law enforcement, it was asset
recovery. And so, they would pay private
people, and I think they still do, to
put LPRs on their vehicles, just drive
around neighborhoods, drive around
parking lots, collect data. So, a lot of
that data you're seeing is not collected
by police officers, it's collected by
private citizens that put the data that
put LPRs on their cameras, and it's
collected specifically for commercial
purposes.
>> Well, and I I
definitely I know about that. I also
100% can confirm these are law
enforcement vehicles. You can tell by
the you know what you're seeing from the photo as it's taking it.
Uh that it's definitely a police car.
Flashing lights and all in some cases.
Um you know, that that being said, you
know, what what we use it for as an
insurer is uh to verify damages. You
know, we see you know the damage that
doesn't quite look like it you know
belongs to the claim that's been filed.
Um we do these scans and and we look to
see anytime that this vehicle's been hit
previously on uh in ALPR, uh if that
damage was existing prior to the loss
date is essentially what we you know you
utilize it for. That's a private company
that is utilizing this information. So,
my my you know, view of this, and like I
said, can confirm 100% these are law
enforcement vehicles. Um I have ridden
in a Modesto police car uh on a
ride-along, and you know, done uh these
searches uh as we were driving around
looking for stolen cars for a a shift.
Um so, I think that you know, that
specifically, you know, when we're
talking about you know, people's
property that we were we're now photoing
you know, vehicles sitting inside their
driveways, uh you know, that's a stretch
way too far. You know, that I I do think
that at some point that's going to end
up uh going to the Supreme Court, and
they're going to go, "No, that
definitely is a fourth amendment
violation." That said, these five
cameras around town
for the longest time, um I have
children. They're all older at this
point. My youngest is 15, and my oldest
is 20. When I started having kids, one
of my very first thoughts in this town
with five exits into five different
jurisdictions is how easy it would be
for someone to kidnap my child and leave
this town, and we have two officers that
we may be able to possibly catch them
with.
Um so, the idea of having you know, the
five cameras on you know, the five
corners of town makes perfect sense to
me. You know, in the instance we had
something like the Family Dollar
shooting, uh a child being abducted, um
you know, there's a litany of reasons
that they can come in very, very handy
for us with those five cameras. Much
like the mayor, I also recognize that
China has, you know, gone so far as that
if you drop a piece of trash on the
ground, you can't use your ATM card for
the day. That sort of thing and it's all
done through, you know, facial
recognition. We want to be sure that stuff doesn't, you know, come into
our and penetrate our community without
our knowledge, without us ever knowing
that it's happening. You know, when that stuff, you know, does come forward,
you know, if we do want to you know,
move the needle and go for, you know, a
little higher level of surveillance than
what we currently have, I just want to
be sure it either comes between, you
know, five elected officials that
they're members of this community or is
put out to, you know, the rest of the
community where they have, you know, the
chance to come in here, stand at that
podium and say, "Hey, I absolutely do
not want a camera on Main Street where
every time I cross it with my dog, you
guys are watching me."
You know, so that's, you know, kind of
my take on this. You know, it's not that
I have an issue with, you know, the
system as a whole. Good to hear that we
are the owners of of that data.
I appreciate that clarification.
We also pushed this item forward and
said, "Hey, you know, we want to get
this on the agenda sooner rather than
later because of all the discussion
going on in the community and we wanted
to, you know, be accountable to the
community for what it is that we had,
you know, going on already and have you
sit here and give this explanation to
everybody, you know, and I every time
someone asked me, you know, this
question, I'm going to say, "Hey, go
look, you know,
9:40 at, you [laughter] know, at
Monday's meeting and and uh uh you know,
go take a look what what Chief has to
say. You know, he's obviously not lying
and he's telling us exactly what it is
that we're using them for.
And and I think that, like I said, the
five that we have, I think that they
serve a very good purpose and I will
tell you I've had,
out of all the conversations that I've
had, I've had three specifically that
came at me as, "Why are you allowing
this? You are not this kind of guy." And
by the time the conversation was over,
they went, "Okay, it actually makes a
lot of sense for our town." You know, as
long as it's, you know, parameters, parameters. So, more or
less, the reason that, you know, I I got
on board with bringing this forward is
just so that we can put guardrails in to
be sure that should the five of us not
be here any longer, you not be here any
longer, none of the staff still existing
here, uh but we're still living in this
community, that we still get a chance to
walk up that podium ourselves and say,
"Hey, no, we don't want that." You know,
for whatever the reason is, or no, this
is a good thing like the vibe that we
currently have. So, that's uh that's my
spiel on it. Uh oh,
>> Cuz I I just had one more thing I wanted
to add and then I'll ask everyone,
sorry. Uh because there are instances
where people have been jailed for for
over LPRs that are aired.
And then, you know, 2/3 of these traffic
stops, nationally speaking,
uh they're going in as a high-risk,
you know, engagement.
>> [clears throat and cough]
>> Like, that puts our officers uh in a
potential pickle if they accidentally
shoot someone. You know, there's
liabilities there, so like, if there if
you [clears throat] don't already have
those in place,
like, what is our protocol when we come
up to a car that has the situation? Some
people would be, no big deal, some come
out guns blazing, and we don't need an
accident and then a lawsuit because of
that. Right? So, like, we need to have,
in my opinion, guardrails on this stuff
so that the Fourth Amendment doesn't get
violated. Uh and it may have already
been violated based on the geofencing
stuff, so we'll see, it'll be
interesting to see what the sub the um
Supreme Court ends up saying about this
whole thing. But until that time, I
think there needs to be guardrails. I
just think that we can't be encroaching
in the community. Uh you use
[clears throat] it for what it's used
for, which you obviously are. Uh the
citizens uh have a
an oversight committee so that we can
guarantee them that they're being able
to see the air rate and that the
potential uses that is being audited. I
know you're a pretty
>> [clears throat]
>> detailed guy, so you're probably
auditing yourself, but it would I think
it would sit better with the community
if they have their own
eyeballs on it as a community.
Um
so I I'm personally thinking that's
where we need to go, but I don't know
what their thoughts are with everyone
else at the dais.
>> If you don't mind, I want to make one
more statement
just about these things [clears throat]
a bit before we we move on. You just
jogged my memory about something. There
was a a man, I believe, in Tennessee. He
was pulled 12 times in 30 days, over and
over again. He kept getting getting hit
by the same Flock camera. His license
plate had been entered incorrectly in
place of a vehicle that had been stolen,
and over and over again this guy was
being pulled pulled over because he was
still flagged on that system, and they
weren't getting him removed off of it.
So, he, you know, starts going through,
you know, the motions of every time he
gets pulled over, "Here's my license, my
registration." Hands out the window.
"This is not a stolen vehicle. I was
just pulled over yesterday afternoon at
2:00 p.m.
You know, check your guys's logs.
You know, that that circumstance, you
know, and
So, again, when we talk about our
officers, it's a little different than a
lot of other officers. So, I don't mean
any offense by this, but every
interaction with a man with a gun is an
opportunity for something to go wrong.
You know, guy has a bad day. Now, this
guy's been pulled over 12 times. When
he's on his 13th time, is that the time
that he goes, "You know what? You guys
can, you know, and everything goes
wrong." And he ends up getting shot for
something that was law enforcement's
mistake, you know.
>> So, I
» [snorts]
>> As you saw, we you have when you get the
hit, you get the license plate number,
and you get what the what the actual license plate
what it what it read.
>> It didn't text, correct?
>> You should First thing you should do is
verify those. There are instances where
it's wrong. We did have or the U-Haul
vehicle, it flagged it hit as a stolen
vehicle. We roll out there. We do a
high-risk stop on it. We pull everybody
out at gunpoint. Yeah, freaked everybody
out. It's a high-risk It is a high-risk
stop. It turned out that
the U-Haul was reported stolen.
Uh
the It got recovered and brought back to
a shop in Riverbank and was supposed to
be flagged to not be rented out. For
whatever reason, it wasn't flagged. They
rented it out before it was removed
>> [snorts]
>> from Fruit removed it stolen. They had a
truckload of stuff they were trying to
get to I can't remember where, but they
had a truckload of
equipment. They still had a couple more
runs to do. I don't know how it works in
Tennessee. We were able to do a recovery
and remove that vehicle from the stolen
vehicle system right at that point in
time. Or not right at that point in
time, but as soon as we cleared, we cut
them loose. We let them go. We're able
to remove the vehicle remove vehicle
from stolen stolen vehicle system. So,
yes, that that can happen.
>> Well, I guess it could happen, but it
it's all in the way that you approach
the situation, right? So, like if you're
going in there high high-risk thinking
this guy's got a weapon and he pulls out
a broom or something and you freaking
knock him down.
Right? That's a problem.
>> We do
>> That's a lawsuit for us.
>> Yes, but we do a We do high-risk stops
for uh various reasons and we have had
instances where officers have
been right behind the vehicle. The
officer runs the plate wrong. It comes
back as stolen and they do a high-risk
stop on them.
>> Yeah.
>> Mistakes happen and Flock is not immune
to mistakes, but as you can see from the
accountability the what the website for
accountability
officers are being held accountable for
their actions.
>> I I get it, but I think that we need to
have an internal policy, I guess, is
what I'm getting at. That
when we do have something like this,
we're not just instantly going from zero
to 60,
right? We got to have some sort of like
okay, we pull them over, let's
double-check the stuff before we're
lighting them up, you know what I'm
saying?
I guess is what I'm getting at.
>> And also, that is the reason if you look
at the LPR data that I put in the
council report every month, we have
a whole lot of stolen vehicle or stolen
license plate hits and very few stolen
vehicle hits.
Stolen license plate hits, we don't even
respond to anymore because
I've when we first got them, I used to
go and stop people for them, and I have
not got one that was not your front
license plate was stolen, back license
plate is still on the vehicle. So, I
have not gotten a stolen license plate
stop that
was
>> legitimately warranted.
>> Exactly. And so, I don't even stop for I
don't even set my I don't even get
alerts for stolen license plates, and I
don't think any of
our other officers
>> Okay, well, I guess that's like a
the kind of thing I'm talking about as
far as
um
universally through your crew having a
um a process by which we're thinking
through these things and eliminating the
potential for collateral damage and
liability because clearly
just what you're describing to me is
we're seeing the potential for something to be misinterpreted or
you know, that kind of thing. So, as far
as like the outside cameras, like I was
telling
um K, it comes with K's. I don't have
necessarily a problem provided it's not
encroaching,
provided it's not
software updates aren't coming into
these things allowing for next level,
you know, social credit score type stuff
because this is the this is the type of
stuff
that creeps, and it creeps, and it
creeps, and eventually we're going, "Oh,
are we living in 1984?
The book, you know, because we started
with this kind of stuff and we didn't
put guardrails on it.
So, I think that there needs to be at
very least guardrails.
Any Anyone else? Sorry, we've been
talking a lot.
>> May I ask you a few questions?
All right. Um
so, these might seem very basic and
» [clears throat]
>> I I just don't want to assume, right?
So, we'll just ask them out loud. Um but
are these cameras Are they um permanent
and fixed or are they mobile and on a
trailer?
>> Oh, no, they're permanent affixed.
>> Are affixed. And then when you receive
the data, do you go to the camera,
download it manually onto like a thumb
drive, bring it back, and then look at
the data, or is this
uh Bluetooth, wireless, Wi-Fi?
>> Oh, it's all cellular-based. It's
cloud-based. So, every camera's got a
essentially a modem and a transmitter.
[clears throat] So, it's constantly
feeding data to the cloud and it's being
That's how we receive alerts. So,
if it
The only real analytics that Flock does,
as far as processing data or analyzing
data, is as soon as a as soon as it
makes a read, it'll check that license
plate against the list of known stolen
vehicles or against the hot list. And if
it's on a hot list, it'll send an alert
to all the users that have it set for to
uh trigger off of that hot list.
>> And then are these received within the
vehicles as well as in the office or one
or the other?
>> Uh cell phones and um
cell phones and email.
>> Okay.
Uh and then my other question is why do
we choose the company Flock?
And why not another company? Why not
another camera?
>> Right now, there's kind of there's
three. There's kind of a upstart account
I think it's called Ranker or something
I can't remember the third company but
when we were looking into it there were
two primary companies there was Vigilant
and there was Flock. Vigilant was the big dog in town and
they were the big company they were the
they had the most users
um
Flock some of the perks to Flock
which was at the time they were
partnered with Axon
and so that was one of the things that
kind of leaned us towards Flock along
with the fact that Flock was dedicated
law enforcement and safety um
Vigilant was more commercial it was
again like I said it was more it was
established for more asset recovery
banks insurance companies and stuff like
that uh
Flock was all just dedicated was
dedicated for law enforcement and public
safety police security parking garages
and stuff like that and communities and
stuff uh also Flock at the time had uh
solar options and I
don't think Vigilant had a solar option
at that time where uh they all had to be
hardwired so if we wanted to get
Vigilant cameras we had to get power to
everywhere we wanted them Flock they
operate off of solar and also the cost
for Flock was cheaper than Vigilant so
there are multiple factors that led us
to Flock.
>> Okay thank you.
>> Um any other thoughts over here?
Uh Mr. Wingfield what are your what are
your thoughts?
>> Yeah I'll just keep them brief
>> [clears throat]
>> or I'll try.
Uh I mean I think in general if we're
worried about living in a police state
we're we're we're too late right and if
we're on our computer at our microwave
on our phones I mean I'm carrying two
tracking devices with me third if you
want to count my watch every day and
everywhere I go.
Um
So, you know, from that perspective I I
think that we're late, right? But
uh
I I don't disagree with I think with
what the mayor's asking for, which is
some guardrails. So, I was just looking
at the agenda item request and
uh the under the recommended motion
under B, it says remove any potential
for software updates which violate uh our fourth amendment.
I [clears throat] would think just to
even add that that you know, that they
would need to be any any potential
software changes need to be approved
through council regardless of what they
are just so that there's information
that's able to be shared with the
public.
Uh but I but I do see the the benefit uh
as far as
seeing who's coming in and out of our
town. It For me, even if we didn't have
them, just just go down the street cuz
the next agency does. I mean, in every
direction I think on Manteca's council
meeting tonight, they have proposed
another six to their like
90-some or whatever they've got going on
in town already. Uh similar as you jump
off into Modesto, you're going to grab
it there. Oakdale, I'm sure. And then
obviously Stockton's going to have them
as well. So,
um I don't think there's any avoiding
them at this point. So,
limiting the amount of information
that's able to be gathered, if if that's
even something that we'll be able to do
in the future. So,
I I totally get on board with with some
type of requirement that that we can't
change providers or um
or software
uh without council's approval. Um
And as far as adding any additional
cameras, I think that would be a two.
That would be something that would would
run through council as well.
Um
Councilmember Scharmann, do you have any
thoughts on this?
>> Actually,
I have a question for Chief and then I
have a question for you, Mr. Mayor.
>> Yeah.
>> Um Chief, respecting
confidentiality of law enforcement.
Can you walk me through the process of
let's say City of Modesto
reaches out and wants information.
How how does that process work?
>> Uh
So, once we share data through Flock,
the it's an integrated system. So, if we
punch in a license plate, so when you're
doing the search for a vehicle, like
let's say you're looking for a specific
uh you got a we got a
suspect vehicle, it's a black Ford
truck. Uh it came in came through the
town approximately this time. We would
do a search for black Ford truck and if
we could find something that we thought
was the suspect vehicle to get a license
plate off of it, we would then run just
that license plate uh through a more
in-depth search and then running it
through the further search kind of shows
us all the cameras that it hit off of.
So, if you do a search for a license
plate number, it automatically searches
the camera networks that we are
connected with.
>> And how far out does that that camera
network extend?
» Like I said, I'm
not sure, but we we share with hundreds
of California agencies.
>> Okay.
>> [snorts]
[clears throat]
>> So, my question for you, Mr. Mayor and
Council Member Kay,
how do you envision this
citizens oversight committee? I mean,
what are what in particular what are
they what are they like?
>> we need an auditing committee of
citizens,
maybe three people, so it's
you know, it's odd,
that
>> [clears throat]
>> once or twice a year go through an
auditing process with the chief
and present that information to us or to
the community to make sure that
everything's on the up and up,
uh which I know it will be and I'm not
This is not an assault on you, Chief. I think our cops are awesome. They do a
great job here.
I'm looking at the [clears throat]
potential for it to be abused.
Potential for a turnover in uh policing,
council, all that stuff in the future.
And then uh all of a sudden, I'm sitting
in my front yard and I've got cameras on
me
eating my sandwich. You know what I'm
saying? Like
uh I think [clears throat] at some point
it is over the top.
And
>> [clears throat]
>> my line in the sand, personally, is
the the the
outskirts of town. I think anything in
town is a is encroaching and I'm
be interested to see what comes of the
geo fence uh the the actual lawsuit when
it gets to the the Supreme Court because
it's already heading that way from my
research on it.
Um so in the meantime, while we're
waiting, I don't want to step on the
toes of the police to get to be able to
use this to
help you guys. It's a tech It's a
technology and a tool.
But at the same time, we got to make
sure that our citizens aren't getting,
you know,
rolled up uh
or accidentally abused and you not
intentionally, right? Things that would
potentially happen like
uh I mean, I'll give you that example
you used with black
vehicle. Um I mean, that same exact
scenario happened down in San Diego and
a guy spent a month in jail and an
innocent man was in a jail for a month
because of uh
human error.
And And that's the kind of stuff that we
have to have an internal policy,
whatever you guys come up with
for those potential approaches, so that
stuff doesn't happen, a procedural
thing.
A citizen oversight committee, so we can
guarantee to the citizens that yes, even
though we know Chief is 100% uh a very
honest guy, um that's confirmed. You
know what I'm saying?
And the other part of it is
um
the encroachment part. So, I mean, if I
were to say what I would want it to look
like, a three-person
oversight committee meets with Chief and
the city manager, maybe lawyer, however
that would look. Uh maybe you have one
council member on that board or
something, and
you have an oversight over it. You look
at it. What's the error rate?
Are we having any potential concerns
with it? I mean, down in uh Illinois's
Oak I think it was called Oak Valley or
Oak
Let me look it up real quick. Sorry. It
was called
Let me see here.
In Illinois's Oak Park, Illinois, where
they implemented that.
>> [clears throat]
>> They were coming up with a 30%
That's a huge number to me. Error rate.
In
once they implemented the citizen board.
So, like, those are the kind of things
that
help, I think, us
guarantee the community that they're not
going to have a problem, but at the same
time
uh you know, allows you to still use
your technology
to get those license plates when you
need to.
Um
so, I would think that's one part of it
when I flesh it out. The other part of
it is to leave to is is no no further
encroachment in the town. Like, where
they're at now is where they're going to
be 10 years from now, in theory.
Kind of thing. And then the last part of
it is like Councilman Casey saying the
software update needs to be
something that uh is guaran- is is
specifically for license plates.
You don't end up putting it on there and
all of a sudden it's looking at faces.
Now it's looking at Lord knows what
else. Now [clears throat] I go grab a
beer at the store and my social credit
score drops. You know, all that kind of
stuff that really has to be
guard railed. You know what I'm saying?
So, that's that's kind of where I'm
coming from and to answer your question.
>> Well, I'm
clear on that. So, when you say update,
you're you're talking update software
updates that will add additional
features beyond license plate
>> Correct.
>> reading.
>> Correct.
Cuz the original intent is to use to see
the license plates, right?
>> Yeah, I don't I don't think he's
referring to just technology updates to
prevent glitches.
>> And they're they're constantly just like
that's that's where you pay the
subscription fee.
They've got [clears throat] cloud base
where they're doing protection, so
they're constantly running updates,
fixing fixing but fixing patches. So,
this is the type of stuff that's
constantly being updated, but they're
not constantly adding new features.
>> Which which I get get. I get that. But,
I also look at most of these elites, if
you call them that,
um use China as their model, right? And
in those systems, they there already
exists software that can be input on
this system
uh
and can be used to abuse or violate the
Fourth Amendment on another level,
right? So,
Yeah, so well, yeah, that's true and and
but not everyone is with their phone
24/7. You know what I'm saying? I mean,
some people are, but I don't. Um
so, so this is the thing I'm looking at
is I just want to make sure we guarantee
that. It's I mean, you know what they
say about assuming things, right? So,
that's not where we want to be is what
my opinion.
>> Well, now I'll also add that I I think
this is a good conversation to have and
just the fact that we can have this
conversation and
we can have the open debate about it.
Goes to show just how different we are
from the places like China.
>> Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I'm
just making sure that I do my own due
diligence to make sure that um when I
look back on my life
my grandson's not like, "Grandpa, what
the heck you do?" You know what I'm
saying? [clears throat]
So so that's where I'm thinking I try to
look and project forward. How could this
potentially be abused? And where does
that potentially go, right? When you
flush it out, the way you're using it
currently really isn't a big deal.
When you start to flush that out though,
that's that's a big meatball, so to
speak. Um
oh wait.
Is any anyone else have anything before
you go to the audience?
>> Well, yeah. My second question that I
was going to ask
was um
Chief, when Flock runs an update
software update, do they explain
[snorts] to you what's included in the
update? Does it say security patch or
does it say
just an update's been ran. So my
question is now is Chief having to turn
into an IT guru to try to understand
what what was included in that
>> [clears throat]
>> update?
>> May I say something here?
If they're going to provide new
capabilities, new technology, they're
going to they're going to monetize that.
And they're going to they're going to
their sales people are going to go to
the police department and they're going
to say, "Would you like to do X and Y?"
They're not going to do it gratis.
There have been iterations of Flock
through the years with I've seen with
several of my cities and clients that I
have do work with.
They've never once given any new
features free. They do updates all the
time. Security patches, glitches, that
kind of thing. But in terms of new
technology, we will know when it occurs
cuz they will say for you know, X more
amount of month, you can have this as
well.
>> It makes sense.
>> new feature for speed that they're
trying to sell me on a few months ago
and I didn't want to pay for it.
>> And the other thing, too, is that would
be picked up, in theory, by an auditing
committee.
That's why
>> And I think that the expansion of
features like like that is again
something that we are requesting that we
be notified of if there is ever anything
that takes place like that, rather than
us having to explain to the community
after the fact, like these five cameras.
>> What they charge for that kind of stuff,
it would need council approval.
>> Okay. Good to know.
>> Yeah.
>> Any other thoughts before I put it out
to the public?
>> Last question.
>> Oh, go for it.
>> For Chief.
Do you think the use of Flock cameras
since 2023 has benefited the city of
Escalon?
>> Undoubtedly, yes.
» I wouldn't argue that.
What I'm looking at is
>> Mission creep.
>> Yeah, mission creep.
>> Well, I I understand that, guys, but if
you carry a cell phone, they already
know where you're at. So, where's the balance?
>> You can put it down and it's private and
it's an option and this is not an
option.
That's the difference. The difference is
the government is surveilling you
instead of you surveilling yourself.
>> I I agreed to these terms and
conditions. I did not agree to you to
the terms and conditions of Chief
knowing every time I come in and out of
town.
>> Yeah. No.
>> That's the difference.
>> That's it.
>> Um are you okay with me putting it out?
>> Sure.
>> Uh public, uh anyone in the public would
like to speak to this situation.
>> [cough and clears throat]
>> Excuse me.
>> I would Um Chief, I got a question.
>> Mhm.
>> Last month we had a
182 hits, right? Or leads, correct?
>> Yes.
>> And two hits, correct?
>> Uh
we still have four hits, I'm pretty
sure.
>> Yeah, that sounds about right.
>> And so, were were those investigated?
Were those cited? What what happened
with those?
Cuz my whole thing is if we're only
using it for stolen vehicles, right?
How much are we paying for that a month
and is it really necessary? If it was
just two hits, they can't even cuz you
don't even go after the stolen license
plate hits, right? What are the
benefits?
>> So, if you look at the total hits
>> It was 180 or 852,000.
>> That's total hits. Most of those are
stolen license plates. We don't like I
said, like I explained, going after
stolen license plates, they're
there's the error the margin of error in
not getting the right vehicle is so
high, we don't even go after them. The
stolen vehicle, we will go after. The
benefit is not just for the stolen
vehicles, it is for the investigative
tool where I mean, if you look at the
report, I did indicate in this report
and of there were three cases where
health yards were used. One of them we
actually identified the person that
stole a bike and uh
we know who they are. We're seeking a
warrant for their arrest. There's
another one where we've identified the
vehicle.
We identified We identified the vehicle,
we just couldn't tie a person to the
crime. So, we don't just get the license
plate, say, "Okay, this is the vehicle,
this is the license plate, we're going
to go arrest the owner for a crime."
It's We got the license plate. Now, this
is an investigative tool. We can use
this to see which people had access to
this vehicle at the time of the crime to
see if we can tie an actual person to
the crime. No, I I get that. I
understand that. What I'm I guess
Just based off July, though, right?
There was 182 hits, which means illegal
activity, correct?
>> So, a hit is an alert.
>> Right. Well, well, I'm just saying. So,
>> The hits are the hot list hits. Those
are not officer searches.
>> So, it's just that What I'm saying is
that I'm pretty sure there was only two
stolen vehicle scans last month.
>> Correct.
>> Right. So, what came of those two hits?
>> Uh
the vehicles were not located.
>> So, nothing, right? So, the whole month
we used those cameras just to watch
people coming in and out of town or
Well, what last What I'm asking is like
month. Like last month for instance. And like your little screenshot with that data right there. Are those
tied directly to you the use of Flock
cameras?
>> Uh
the ones for 2024 are.
>> So, every one of those arrests were tied
directly from the use of our Flock
cameras.
>> I'm not going to say every one of them,
but if you if you can see it's threefold
from the year prior and the only
difference is we got the Flock cameras.
And I know the first year
we had them, we were running hard cuz I had I got a couple of the stolen
vehicles cuz every time we got an alert,
we would respond to them and we would
respond to the vehicle respond to the
stolen vehicle alerts when we can.
Again, we had two two alerts for stolen
vehicles.
If I'm busy on a call, if let's say you
got your
something happened, I'm taking a report
from you. I get an alert, oh we got a
stolen vehicle coming into town on
Highway 120. I'm not going to break what
I'm doing with you to go chase down the
stolen car which I might not find. And
the hits, just because it's a hit
doesn't mean it's a good hit. As he
said, the license plate it's reading
does not mean it's the license plate
that it was. There are several times,
like I said, I would say at least one in
nine. 30% seems kind of high, but if you
said 10 to 15%
>> that was
>> I wouldn't lie or I wouldn't argue with
that because there are times you see the
license plate what it read, you see the
license plate and you're like, oh it
read a three and it should be an eight
or it read an S when it should be an E.
And you you look at it and it registered
as a hit, but it wasn't a hit and you
can disregard it and you don't even have
to go out.
>> Right, I'm not I'm not questioning what
you're doing your job right or what's
wrong. My question is from what people
I've heard talk to you is are they
really necessary?
Are they a necessity for our town?
And compared to how much I mean we how
much do they cost a month to run? How
much does the software cost? You know,
people are just I mean just assuming
like are they a real necessity? Do we
really need those here? I mean, if
you're going down that highway in there
in Manteca, you're going down there,
they're in Oakdale. You're going this
way, they're in Modesto. I mean, are
they really a necessity here in town?
>> Each camera is about $2,400
per year.
And we close We close a lot more cases
now than we have using Flock. We Like I
said, we
just last month there was a stolen bike
or two stolen bikes that we were able to
identify the suspects actually two
suspects and get warrants for their
arrest. And I would say at least every
month there's probably a case that we
solved and identified suspects based off
of Flock cameras.
>> Okay.
That's my question.
>> Thank you.
>> Uh next person
» [clears throat and cough]
» Uh the community I came from
Mr. Mayor, they not only stole your damn
sandwich, but they probably stole your
truck.
So they could take it home, you know? So
I just
you got to put up some safeguards and I
understand there's got to be oversight
and all that kind of stuff, but I'm 100%
behind the chief in the in the use of
whatever kind of technology that's
within reason and I think this is within
reason.
So
I'm all for you and I'm all for law
enforcement
and keep this community safe. It's a
nice little place.
>> It is. It is.
Glad you're part of it now.
>> Thank you all. You're doing a great job
in
>> Uh ooh, there's Sherry coming up.
» Um
first of all
>> [clears throat]
>> I don't know about your three things,
you know, and the and the citizen
oversight. I I think really you could
probably accomplish what you want to do
very easily just by
codifying it. In other words, the
cameras we have, that's what we have.
There will be and then state no cameras
within, you know, residential areas. Um
no audio ever to be done, no facial
recognition. You can be done within
codes. You know what I'm saying? I mean,
we could do that. You you you all can do
that. You can put those codes on this
system and problem solved as far as
what can be done in the future. We've
already codified it. The where we have
the cameras, quite frankly, I think
they're wonderful. And being a grandma
with small children, I think they're
awesome. Um, I'm behind it 1,000%. Not
on my street.
Cuz it's my private street. It's like I
have cameras on the outside of my home.
I don't have cameras inside my home. So,
it's the same kind of concept. So, just
codify it. I mean
>> Well, that's kind of what I'm getting
at.
>> Yeah, so just codify it. I mean, it's very simple. Just say, "What we
have now on the major arteries, those
are the cameras that we're going to use.
You know, keep them updated, keep
updating the software, whatever needs to
be." Then also put in the code, "No
audio, no facial recognition."
You know, if if something comes down in
the future and then there's going to
have to be a fight in this room over
changing it. You see what I'm saying?
That would be really simple to do. Um,
if you do pursue citizen oversight, I I
want to make sure that they're not like
looking at the cameras, they're not
looking at information, they're not
looking, they're just looking at data.
Is that correct?
>> Correct.
>> If you
choose and you have to go that way, I'll
volunteer. But, um, otherwise, I I think
you can do it within code. I really do.
>> I
think you can in theory to a certain
extent, but
Um, anyone else?
» [clears throat]
>> Excuse me.
>> Cassie.
>> Um, yeah, I have some questions. Uh,
you say that we only have access to this
data. Correct? Where's stored? On the
cloud?
But, the company has access to it.
Correct?
>> Well, I mean
>> What I read online. Anybody who works
there can technically access that data.
>> Right.
>> And they all answer to their investors,
correct?
>> Well, they answer to their
>> They have multiple investors.
>> Well, they also have customers and if
they started doing that, then again, one
of the reasons that Flock became so
popular in law enforcement field was
their uh
their dedication to law enforcement and
Vigilant is a commercial company. They
do sell They do sell their data. They do
monetize their data. They do
commercialize their data. Flock
does not. Are they lying?
It's a possibility.
>> Yeah.
>> But
why would they do that? And then they're
going to ruin their credibility and
everybody's going to flee to another
company. Again, there's another company
that's starting up trying to draw
business from Flock. I can't remember
their name, but there is a third company
now getting in the mix.
>> Got it. I'm just saying that there is
room for that kind of stuff to happen.
And it I feel like it was
which I get you feel like it's very
safe.
But there is room for it to not be.
Cuz you have this data that you're
collecting from our community that we
didn't agree to
out
and about.
>> But also, there are no laws that
prohibit private companies from
collecting LPR data. So, let's say we
didn't have cameras and Flock decided to
Okay, we're going to make it We're going
to do We're going to go We're going to
follow the Vigilant model. We're going
to do commercial Flock. Flock as a
company could just put up cameras that
we're not purchasing, collect that data,
and then sell that data to us.
>> Which I mean, I get, but that's not
something that we can control, right?
Th- This is something that we can have a
conversation about and control.
>> Right.
>> I'm about controlling things I can
control and not the things that I can't
control, cuz I'll go crazy.
So,
I do have a problem with private
companies having access to data
um
in our community. I mean, I told my
6-year-old daughter, she goes, "Where
are you going? Why are you dressed up?
Where are you going?"
I said, "Oh, I'm going to go talk to the
city cuz you know,
we got these cameras that I don't really
appreciate." And she goes,
"There are cameras watching me in my
city?" And I'm all, I mean, even the
6-year-old gets it, right?
So, I want to make sure that
people who shouldn't have our
information don't have our information.
And I feel like if
we're putting up cameras,
we're allowing other people into our
lives that
don't necessarily need to be there.
If it was going just directly to you,
fine, but it's not. It's it's out there
for everybody. And I don't I don't like
that. And
uh
I mean, as far as police officers using
it,
I mean,
those victim numbers are the ones you
guys caught, right? I mean, as far as
police officers misusing, I'm sure
there's way more than that. I personally
have been a victim of a police officer
doing things that they shouldn't do, and
I know it happens.
And I'm sure there are many more that
aren't caught. I'm not saying you guys
are doing that.
But I'm just saying
I agree that guardrails absolutely need
to be put on this
if we do keep them up.
Thank you guys for listening.
>> Thanks for your input.
Any- anyone else?
Online?
Bring back to the dais. Um
anyone else have any other thoughts or
>> Had a one quick question for for Chief
that uh she just sparked for me.
It'd [clears throat and cough] be a
violation of their contract if they
started selling it pri- privately,
right?
>> Most likely, yeah.
>> I mean, I would be sure there's
something in that contract that that
states
>> Yeah.
>> uh for governmental protection, right?
So, they would be violating their
contract if they went sold the uh the
data to an outside entity that was not
law enforcement. So, uh you know, aside
from that, you know, as far as getting
hacked or or any you know, I mean, every
device that we carry, the the Ring
cameras on our houses, uh you can't walk
down the street without being recorded
by something that can absolutely be
being hacked and be be tracing you. We
just want to ensure that as a government
that we are not doing any more than what
we feel is uh
absolutely necessary for the community.
Um the only other thing that uh I really
have um I I wonder if rather than us
establishing a committee, would we maybe
be better to just have an annual update
or a biannual update,
uh you know, from the chief where he
brings the the information in here and
it shows it to the community the same
way they did tonight?
>> Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't be against
that.
>> And the only reason I mentioned that is
that we've had such a hard time filling
our Measure P committee. Uh you know, I
don't know how many uh you know,
volunteers we're going to get for this.
>> I mean, I wouldn't necessarily be
against it as long as
if we're getting the answers we need to
get and there's no confusion, like it's
a streamline process. I know Chief knows
what he's talking about and doing. I
just I'm [clears throat] looking at more
the future of how it could potentially
go and it could be a real slippery slope
and you know, we could be talking about
uh going sideways real quick, you know,
with that kind of stuff. So,
But but to that point, Mr. I think
Sherry [clears throat] brings up a
very valid point and
put it in the Escalon Municipal Code.
Make
>> Well, that's what I'm talk That's what I
was trying to get to is that
I would
Is everyone done talking?
>> No.
Okay. Um
well, I was I was wanting to make a
motion at at point,
but I'll give it to you. Pro tip, what
do you got?
>> Okay, so one thing I missed on the first
time around
>> [clears throat]
>> something I'm uncomfortable with because
police officers to surveil must be in
view, right? So, they cannot be hiding
behind a bush.
Right?
>> What do you mean?
>> Uh the police car has to be
viewed on the side of the road.
You can't like be hiding in the side of
the
>> Like when we're working traffic or
something.
>> Yeah, yeah, we can.
>> Okay. Well, I am still uncomfortable
with there not being signage on the
cameras, right? So, like you are being
you are in a public space, you have you
are being surveilled. Like you should be
able to tell people that you are being
watched by a camera. The government
should be telling you. So, I am very
uncomfortable with having
I don't know. I'm really uncomfortable
with having hidden police officers
everywhere.
>> [laughter]
>> Not here, but everywhere.
Uh but uh that there is not any signage
on the surveillance
uh cameras. So, I just want to put that
out there before you go on your
um
monologue.
>> Sorry.
>> That's okay. Um
with the systems in general before and
while I get here, I am very worried that
this is a violation or will be a
violation of our fourth amendment
rights.
Um and this is like a warrantless search
in general. Like that's that's it.
There's no warrant for the search and
everybody I if somebody want to know if
I was in town or out of town, they could
say I'm in town or out of town and I
don't like that as an individual
citizen. I should be able to go come as
I please without the government knowing
where I am.
Um not that I'm doing anything wrong,
but I'm an individual sovereign citizen
apart from the government entity and
those are supposed to remain separate.
Um the other thing that has nothing to
do
with the Well, it does actually. Uh I
don't like setting up the infrastructure
for a mass surveillance system, whether
it's today or in the future. And that
mass surveillance system I'm very
uncomfortable with. If we end up moving
forward, I would be more comfortable
with this to be a mobile system and not
just setting in stone that we have like
in the cement that we have a mass
surveillance system in and out of our
cities.
Um I would be more comfortable with that
and then I would be more comfortable
with signage on the um
cameras themselves. And then I like the
codification, not in residential areas,
right? So, okay. That's before.
That's what I got.
>> Anything [clears throat] else, though?
Okay.
>> Okay, Chief.
>> All right. Well, I'd like to make a
motion
to um if we're going to keep the the
cameras we currently have
>> [clears throat]
>> that we codify
um
not in any residential
and we keep it to the
uh current five cameras we have.
Um
that no software updates
uh that have new technologies be allowed
until it's been brought to the community
forum.
Um
Excuse me. [clears throat]
Um and if
the Supreme Court does rule on it being
a Fourth Amendment violation, that we do
remove those uh if it does come down to
that.
Um
Is there anything I'm missing?
>> I think
>> Oversight.
>> Oh, yeah. And then auditing process, I
would be be with initially doing uh once
your auditing process through the
community with Chief.
And if it looks like there's a concern
there,
uh then we can at that point flush it
out.
Um
Yeah, that would be my motion.
>> So, just to be clear, the auditing the
Chief would basically do an annual
report
>> [clears throat]
>> uh
>> Yeah, cuz it's important
how many error rates there are.
Uh has anyone been shot because
>> understand that. I understand what's
important and why it's important. I'm
just saying you want Chief to do that.
>> Um well
>> Cuz you said through the community.
>> I would like the community to play a
role in that, so
>> Well, then we have to spend time
discussing what that means because
>> Okay.
>> you just opened a can of worms by saying
through the committee.
>> Okay. Well, through a
um
You want to do oversight from council
member?
Two? Probably two, right? At least two.
>> Two council members in Cherry Hill?
>> Yeah.
>> So, if you If you If you create erect
some kind of committee now, that's going
to be subject to the Brown Act.
>> Okay.
>> So, then you guys can all meet with the
Chief and discuss doing an audit with
Brown Act and public comment. You just
be careful about what you're opening up
in terms of making it more difficult and
onerous. Cuz I think part of the idea
was to be able to review this sort of
and there's going to be discreet
investigation. There's going to be
There's going to Sorry, discreet
information and stuff that is
confidential investigative materials as
well.
>> Correct.
>> And then you're going to have
non-subject matters reviewing the
subject matter experts. And then you got
to be careful who's on the committee cuz
you may get defund activists that are on
the committee.
So, you just have to be careful and
think through all these things. I think
a basic report out from the Chief on
annual basis
>> Why don't we start there? And then we
can research that other stuff.
>> You can get legal advice on that one.
>> So, but Mr. Mayor, that would be the
motion. Oh, sorry.
>> Um
Instead of doing a a yearly report, um
maybe just to drive greater
transparency. Uh
quarterly or
every 6 months as opposed to
>> [clears throat]
>> How much of a concern is that to your
working schedule?
>> I mean
>> What?
Is that a a big problem?
>> to figure out exactly what's going to go
in these audit reports. Once I figure
out what the audit report's going to be,
it shouldn't be too difficult to pull
the information.
>> I just
>> On point of order, we have a motion on
the table.
>> You're right.
>> Um I'll second the motion.
>> Okay. All in favor say aye.
>> Aye.
>> All opposed say nay.
>> Nay.
>> Okay. So
we are done for the night.
Okay. I think we're done for the night.
Uh we'll go to council communications
then. Um
Councilman Ingle, let's start on your
side this time.
>> Yeah, thank you. Let me just pull up the
notes here.
Um okay. So uh lots of stuff in the
news, you know, about uh potentially
extreme weather in in the winter with,
you know, a high likelihood of there it
being an El Niño season. Um so what what
I was hoping is that
uh we could make sure to review uh and
have a plan in place
uh for
um storm preparedness uh just in case we
do experience uh you know, large
quantities of water like we did last
season just to make sure that we're
thoroughly equipped to handle
um the event and and have all
contingencies in place. So I'd like to
get that um on the agenda if I can get
consensus from
>> I would back I would back that.
>> Thank you. Appreciate that. And uh it's
been long enough night. That's all I
have. Thank you.
>> Councilman Stroman.
>> Sure. I'll make my comments brief. Uh
It's good to be back. Uh
started a new job recently which is
um
requiring a lot of extra road time. So,
the first meeting of the month I
had to attend an overnight event in
Santa Clara.
Last week I had to attend a
school board meeting.
So, I apologize to
this council and the community for not
attending the last two meetings. Uh
fortunately the the job called.
Um
only other thing I'd like to dis- just
have a discussion on um
really want to look at
um
our
uh weed abatement uh policy at a future
meeting.
Uh last Friday night the Lions Club held
one of their um
car shows at Hula's.
I was uh at the Bonnie's. I walked over
and the field behind Hula's was quite
honestly an embarrassment.
It was an embarrassment for
the city. It was an embarrassment for
Hula's. It was an embarrassment for the
Lions Club. It was just really a poor
reflection of our city.
So,
today
uh the old property owner decided to cut
everything down
and just leave everything.
That was their way of
resolving the issue. And so now they've created an even bigger issue
cuz
now you have grass and trash. So, and I
understand
it's a sensitive issue because there are
some community members that can't afford
um weed abatement.
But, those I think those are the
anomaly. So, I just want to look at the
our policy and see
cuz right now I mean correct me if I'm
wrong, city manager, but
we send letter after letter after letter and I wouldn't be behind it
if we're not looking at like a
compliance officer. No. Like I I don't
want to be targeting citizens.
Absolutely. Um, so
if if it's but if we can look into like
how we can maybe make that policy have
more teeth.
>> That's exactly what I'm trying to figure
out.
>> Yeah, I would be behind that.
>> Yes, for sure.
>> Because cuz it's it's a poor reflection
of the community and
I mean,
not expectation is not somebody driving
around looking for these things but
really adding more teeth to the policy.
So,
just want to have a conversation
[clears throat] about it.
>> Okay. Is that enough direction? Okay.
>> Uh,
and other than that, uh, it's late.
Thanks everybody for your input.
>> Councilman K.
Um,
had something that I'm just going to
hold off on cuz it's gotten so late.
Chief, thank you very much for putting
it all together for us and fielding all
of these questions and all of this
discussion. Seems like you you got more
of the focus tonight than than you
usually do and I appreciate the
your ability to have those questions
bounced off of you and and you come back
with with perfect answers every single
time. You do a great job and I really
appreciate you. Justin, thanks for not
falling asleep over there. On that note,
>> Thank you guys for sticking it out with
us.
>> [laughter]
>> Uh, have a great night.
>> Okay.
>> Pro tem.
>> Just a couple comments on this evening.
Great conversations today. I just want
to thank Chief for all the all the
questions we've thrown at him today and
just state that I have all the faith in
the world in our human police force. You
guys have done a great job since I've
been here in Echelon. You continue to do
a great job
connecting with the community. So,
appreciate you guys.
Um,
and we need to make sure that humans
remain the collective, right? So, as
we're going into this age of machines
and cameras and robots and automation,
the humans must win. Like, the humans
must be the collective of things and
people that run things. And so, when we
are deciding to vote on things, to
automate things, and that kind of stuff,
we should make sure that we
uh you know, in my opinion, we need to
make sure that we keep staff, that we
hold on to staff, that we're not
automating things to
let staff and humans go and have this
just come in and be empty, just you type
things in like at the kiosk at
McDonald's, and then you get an answer
from a screen. So, um that's my concern
when I'm uh digitalization and the
automation, that we stay as long we stay
the hometown feel, we stay where we
connect with people, and we're doing
business with people, and we're making
um we're making uh com uh relationships
with our staff and our people, with our
community. So, that's my commentary on
this evening, and it's yeah, been a
great night. That's it.
>> I'll keep it short and sweet as well. Um
Chief, I do appreciate your
professionalism on this. I
>> [clears throat]
>> no intent I wasn't trying to throw
arrows at you. I just want to make sure
that we have a very well-thought-out
approach uh
to where [clears throat] you guys are
able to use it where you need to, but
we're not putting, you know,
um
putting it in play where it could be
over the top abusive.
Um
so, I do appreciate that. Um other than
that, I don't have anything else. Um you
guys have a good night, and Congressman,
thank you for coming, cuz I know you're
going to win. So,
appreciate [laughter] it.
>> [clears throat]
>> Thank you.
>> Um I've actually been uh thinking about
doing it for a while.
My dad did it for me.
>> I got my bag.