[This transcript was generated automatically from audio using AI and hasn't been reviewed by a person -- it can contain mistakes, including plausible-sounding sentences that were never actually said. Treat it as a starting point, not a verbatim record.]

[1:46] Thank you. I will try to make sure that everybody can hear me. If you can't hear me, would you raise your hand? All right. Great.
[1:53] The first thing we have on our agenda is approval of the minutes from May 22nd, 2025.
[1:58] Move for approval. I will second. All those in favor. That is 2-0.
[2:04] I wanted to just give some instructions for today. We've got a package agenda.
[2:10] So, good afternoon and welcome.
[2:14] Later on, you will be asked if you want to give public comment.
[2:18] You can please be aware of the following guidelines.
[2:22] First of all, I'll say there is a sign-up sheet to my left on the table there.
[2:26] You may sign up, you don't have to sign up, but when the time comes to me to ask for public comment,
[2:31] those of you who have signed up will be called first.
[2:34] Each speaker will be a lot of three minutes.
[2:36] When it is your turn to speak, you'll begin by stating your name and general address, we don't need your street address.
[2:43] And then to be sure that you have an uninterrupted opportunity to speak, this would be your time.
[2:49] So that means members of the council will not be answering questions or engaging in discussion with your public comments.
[2:55] But we are willing to answer questions after the meeting.
[2:58] Or if you'd like to email us, you can email us at city council at cityofredricmd.gov.
[3:04] And that's also on the website.
[3:06] If you have written materials to accompany your remarks, we also encourage you to email those just in case you can't get all in in your three minutes.
[3:16] Let's see.
[3:17] If you have sent in e-commence or e-mails on your agenda item, you need not get up and speak those comments are already in the record.
[3:26] You certainly are welcome to, but we don't need you to come up and just reiterate the same message over and over again.
[3:33] We do use rules of procedure, which most recently passed by Resolution 2427, conduct that disrupts
[3:40] the meeting or interferes with the rights of members of the public to attend and observe is not acceptable,
[3:45] and we have posted our code of civility in the board room over there on the bulletin board.
[3:50] So, please take note of the exits for your safety and please silence all of your electronic devices.
[3:56] Thank you for taking time to be here and engage with us today, and we will begin our workshop agenda with the Youth Center
[4:03] update. Who do we have?
[4:32] Good afternoon. My name is Eric Orba. I'm the manager of Opportunity and Transformation with the Office of the Mayor.
[4:37] And the use center is a project that I've been working on for the last couple of years,
[4:40] either with HHS or with the Office of the Mayor.
[4:43] Our big reveal. Thank you, Andrew. These images have been provided in your back up,
[4:46] but we understand it's easier to see blue prints when they're a little bit larger.
[4:50] So we wanted to make sure we had a larger scale for you all.
[4:55] Thanks, Erica. My name is Andrew Welker.
[4:58] I work for Auschwem properties, but I'm also serve on the Advisory Board for Auschwem and family foundations
[5:03] community projects committee.
[5:07] And I have been charged with and happy to assist with the design management for this youth center project.
[5:15] As you might recall, the memorandum of understanding between the city and Auschwem and family foundations was signed in September of last year.
[5:22] And happy to report that things are running very smoothly as it relates to the construct and the outline of that memorandum of understanding.
[5:31] So today, I wanted to bring you up to speed on what we've accomplished since that MOU was signed and then give an opportunity for our design team to present to you the blocking and space plan concept that we've come up with over the past nine months.
[5:46] Can you pull a mic just a wee bit close?
[5:48] Sure.
[5:48] I have an echo effect.
[5:49] I also don't like how it echoes just a little bit.
[5:52] So I apologize if I stuttered, it's usually because I hear myself twice when I'm talking.
[5:58] So since the MOU was signed, we did conduct a comprehensive property condition assessment.
[6:04] Basically, asking ourselves whether the building was fit for the intended use as a use center.
[6:09] And then look at existing conditions, infrastructure, constraints and opportunities,
[6:14] how we could best utilize the building in a cost-effective way and a meaningful way for the providers that are going to be housed there.
[6:22] The building was officially transferred to the city from the county in late March and even going back before the transfer.
[6:33] We held a number of stakeholder input sessions.
[6:37] The MOU requires that we collaborate with the city.
[6:41] I believe we've gone beyond that and we've formed a facility work group that is a combination of
[6:47] of Ottoman family foundation, city staff,
[6:51] multiple members from the city and then other youth providers
[6:55] in our community all helped guide the process
[6:59] for the stakeholder input sessions.
[7:01] Those input sessions included visits to other youth centers
[7:05] in the region, where we got feedback
[7:09] from the Frederick County Youth Council,
[7:12] so members of the Youth Council from ages 12 to 24,
[7:15] provided their feedback and input.
[7:18] We had multiple design mini-sharets with that youth council,
[7:22] the 12 to 24 collaborative, which is a group of essentially
[7:27] all of the youth services providers in Frederick.
[7:31] We had data exercises, surveys, and mini-sharets with all of those groups.
[7:36] And all of this was synthesized into a plan.
[7:40] And I'm going to ask Nulker and Hol to come up and walk you through
[7:45] plan. We did have to sort through a variety of priorities, want to have, like to have, must
[7:53] have, and balance all of that with the expected expenditure for the project, and then make
[8:00] sure that we maintain as much flexibility and how the building can be used for the multitude
[8:04] of services that can be provided there. So with that, I'm happy to share with you where I guess
[8:11] to bring up to the the Dias Nolker and Whole Architects who will walk you through the plan today.
[8:18] So before we jump into why we're all here, the design, I want to give a little bit of backstory to kind of where we came from, just to re-orient.
[8:26] Which one is one?
[8:28] Oh, this one. Claire, do you just put it in the next one?
[8:38] And I have some lovely images for you guys who are providing you back then. So we, oh, here we are. Okay.
[8:42] So, the last time we met as Andrew alluded to, we approved accepting the building from
[8:47] Frederick County government.
[8:49] The orange, I'm sorry, the yellow building is a future home of the use center that's
[8:52] a 300 Scottish bus lane, which is directly neighboring the boys and girls come up for
[8:56] their county and south and park, which are city owned properties, and across the street from
[9:00] a city field and other city owned property, and it shares a parking lot with mental health
[9:05] association.
[9:06] So when we work with the community to determine the best location for the future home of the
[9:10] Center. It's obviously why we landed on this location. And a big thank you to the
[9:14] Frederick County Government for their partnership and helping us to secure the space.
[9:21] Now to kind of flip your orientation around the use center that yellow building is now on the right
[9:26] hand of the screen south and parks in the middle. Boys and girls clubs on the left. This is a great
[9:31] opportunity for our future campus where young Frederick residents really don't count any actually,
[9:37] but specifically Frederick residents who are at the Boys and Girls Club as they age,
[9:41] So have this really nice transition into the 14 to 24 population that the use center will eventually
[9:46] serve.
[9:47] It will always be in the same place.
[9:48] It's the same bus route.
[9:49] So it's a really great future home for just services in general.
[9:58] This is a product timeline.
[10:00] So generally shows you what I explained verbally, where we had community assessments.
[10:06] We had visioning sessions.
[10:07] We did assess the building, make sure that it was, there were no environmental issues.
[10:13] there are no constructability and structural issues and we are currently in the planning and preliminary
[10:22] design phase. We have landed on blocking plan that everybody is proud of and we are actively
[10:30] working towards a set of schematic design plans which should be complete around the September
[10:35] timeframe. We have been collaborating with the building department of the City of Frederick
[10:43] facilities as well. So we have there by in on mechanical electrical and plumbing systems.
[10:50] And all of that will be again synthesized into the plans as we we move forward with that.
[10:55] And as I mentioned, we are we do have the process a site plan.
[11:00] But ahead of that site plan, we will be processing an institutional overlay zoning request.
[11:06] And then we will have, of course, civil plans and full design drawings.
[11:10] All of that is to get us to a Q, late to Q, 1, 20, 20, 8 building completion and delivery.
[11:19] So, a little over two and a half years away from this.
[11:22] So, we are very much in the early stages, but we do have something a substance to share with you.
[11:49] I'm Robert Asbury, no current hall architects.
[12:02] We're going to speak a little bit about the design process so far and our building evaluation.
[12:11] So hopefully this works.
[12:13] There
[12:16] we go.
[12:19] Continuing the aerial view that you saw a little while ago, this is the same orientation
[12:27] with Scotty's Puzz Lane at the bottom of the sheet.
[12:31] The Jefferson Streets to the right and the backs up to the gas station on the right
[12:37] and the shopping center at the top of the sheet.
[12:41] The building was built in 1964 as a no-land warehouse.
[12:45] It is very much a warehouse now despite county use to convert it to office space.
[12:54] We did a full evaluation of the building to assure ourselves that it was using it and that the city was going to have a good large span out of the building.
[13:09] It's okay, it's an art and you got a little too close, it's an art.
[13:12] So just, if you hear the buzzing, I know, thank you for your tolerance.
[13:18] We go through this every week.
[13:21] Yes.
[13:22] A very narrow view of where you can speak.
[13:28] It's a 1964 building built for Nolan as a plumbing warehouse.
[13:34] And we've evaluated it and established that it's usable.
[13:40] that there are no fundamentally troublesome concerns,
[13:46] but it is 1964 building.
[13:49] So it needs complete system replacement.
[13:53] All the electrical, all the mechanical,
[13:55] all the plumbing, all the skin of the building
[13:59] needs to be the replaced or augmented to bring it up
[14:05] to current codes.
[14:06] Obviously, it's a change of use.
[14:08] So this requires full compliance with all current building codes.
[14:13] So we've evaluated that and established that we do believe this building is feasible for use.
[14:19] And we'll be satisfactory for when it's final purpose.
[14:24] It's about 18,000 square feet.
[14:26] We're not proposing any additions to the footprint.
[14:30] It is just the building that is there working within the walls.
[14:34] with the exception of a possible extension along the streets
[14:38] side where there is that arcade along the street where we already
[14:42] have a roof and we're going to be replacing the windows anyway.
[14:47] So we think we can get a marginal expansion of the building just by
[14:52] working with the roof as it is.
[14:54] So Dan is going to describe a little bit about the actual proposal.
[15:00] Regiment of the building. Great, can you hear me? Okay. So, as Andrew said, we met with the youth council as well as the
[15:11] 12 to 24 collaborative and had lots of shirts and input from everyone and it was actually pretty encouraging and and and and fun to hang out with the youth council and they had a lot of input and dreams for their space for their building.
[15:28] And so a lot of what you'll see in this layout, this black diagram is essentially a collaboration with everyone and a lot of their input.
[15:38] So just briefly, we started out with some very schematic conceptual layouts that then turned into this a little bit more refined layout that's still not set in stone, but for the most part, it will drive our future design.
[15:55] Just to orient you, again, Bob mentioned that the bottom of the sheet is Scotty's bus lane.
[16:03] So all the spaces there in green obviously have a full view to the street as well as from the street.
[16:10] And so lots of light available in those spaces.
[16:13] The spaces to the right as Bob mentioned back to the gas station there.
[16:22] So there is some light, but obviously not a lot of views, you're seeing the back of the gas station.
[16:28] And then the area, the purple to the north, there's about the next building over is about 20, 20, maybe 30 feet away.
[16:37] So really no view there whatsoever.
[16:40] There is potential for light there, but essentially that's the back side of the building.
[16:43] And then the building to the facade that faces a left is faces a parking lot and then the new park that's been designed that we're incorporating.
[16:54] So that sort of started our concept of how we enter the building and how we experience it.
[17:01] So there are two entrances, one being on the left hand side that faces the park and the drive the drop off and a parking lot there.
[17:09] That would be the main entrance for large events, large group events, open to the kids.
[17:17] There is a secondary entrance on a top right that faces the parking lot, the shared parking lot,
[17:25] along Jefferson, and that will be open primarily during the day for individual use for staff,
[17:32] for private meetings, things like that.
[17:34] So, at each of those locations, we have security desks and security vestveels, one of the main topics during our discussions was security and visibility and the balance between those two, but also spaces where you feel like you can get away and have some time with your friends and be by yourself.
[17:58] So, the spaces are generally comprised of large activity spaces,
[18:04] essentially the blue areas, where there's lots of fun activity.
[18:08] The large space is essentially a little bit more than half a gym size,
[18:13] and can be there for lots of physical activity,
[18:16] but also can be used for gatherings, for community gatherings.
[18:20] You see sort of a chair arrangement there that would allow for that.
[18:25] And then we have some medium science spaces that would be focused more on studios.
[18:35] The word classroom was not a popular word with the kids, so it became studio.
[18:43] And so we have maker spaces, we have studios for stem, studies, larger spaces for arts
[18:52] and crafts, and then even an entrepreneurial space that has a lot of promise to it in describing
[18:59] what it could be used for.
[19:01] And then the smaller spaces, obviously, are office spaces for staff, but also those are
[19:09] the spaces in pink, along the right-hand side, can be used for smaller counseling spaces,
[19:17] two to four individuals in there, there's a well, a wellness room as well.
[19:24] So I'll just go back to the main entry as a youth would experience a space.
[19:30] You'd come into the entrance there, there would be a security directly north of that, and
[19:37] that has glass all over it, so that little security area can be, can really oversee that whole
[19:43] center lounge, can oversee the gymnasium, and a lot of the activity that's in.
[19:47] So we felt that that was crucial that that was a space that can see throughout the
[19:52] facility to the to the bottom of that is just really a hangout space being dropped off by
[19:59] mom or dad or waiting for mom or dad or just hanging out with friends or parents coming
[20:03] in, dropping their kids off hanging out so that's that's a space there.
[20:07] But then once you enter into the larger area, that's really a kind of transitional lounge space that becomes the heart of the facility.
[20:17] The kids want a lot to hang out spaces, just really to hang out with their friends.
[20:21] And so lots of different areas for seating arrangements and spaces to do that.
[20:26] The circular area that you see is the cafe, and that's part of the cafe slash kitchenette.
[20:34] It really becomes a focal point in 3D as you walk and are able to see that.
[20:41] So that really becomes a focal point, really the hinge of that whole design that then pulls
[20:47] you in towards the building and towards the back of the more private spaces.
[20:52] So if you will, the left side is more larger activity, more higher volume activity spaces.
[20:59] The right side is a little less activity, quieter spaces, offices, and counseling rooms there.
[21:06] Bob, there's a couple images in the next slide.
[21:11] These are just some rough vignettes of the spaces that show a little bit of 3D volume of the 2D plan.
[21:22] So mainly of the lounge areas as you walk in.
[21:25] So we've got 18 feet of height in there.
[21:29] So we really want to use that to just really open up
[21:32] the space, feel open, be able to visibly
[21:35] see into the gym.
[21:37] Lots of opportunities for some fun cool things.
[21:41] I mean, the kids came.
[21:43] We brought some different images.
[21:44] They also had images.
[21:45] And they're like, we like this, we'd love to have this.
[21:48] That's not as cool.
[21:49] And so it was fun to work with them and get their input.
[21:54] But these are just some images showing how the space
[21:58] will be transformed in 3D.
[22:00] And I want to emphasize these are right now rough images from very early.
[22:06] We will have a light filled colorful space.
[22:10] This is just really more of a study of the space itself
[22:13] rather than an image of how it's going to look.
[22:16] We have a lot of skylights in the building, we're introducing more natural light, so we're trying to unwarehouse the whole look of the place.
[22:26] There might be it on our part, if Andrew wants to pick up?
[22:42] Erica mentioned earlier, Erica mentioned that there was a overall concept plan for the campus.
[22:49] So this is a concept that was done by Man Rikel, and they looked at the South and Park, the Boys and Girls Club in the Youth Center,
[22:56] And came up with the conceptual plan, which is really a guideline and inspiration for how
[23:02] that those campuses will mesh in the future.
[23:06] One thing to point out is the use center building, one of the big ones was outdoor space.
[23:13] They wanted a patio.
[23:14] They wanted a rooftop deck, but that was not particularly feasible at this location, but
[23:19] We are providing or proposing an outdoor patio that will make use of the existing openings
[23:28] that were there for a loading dock area, industrial loading dock, which directly connects
[23:34] to the gym and the activity space, and that will be basically separated and confined or
[23:41] not to find, but separated from a security standpoint, so it's only accessible from inside
[23:45] building, but using fencing material and partitions that are still open area and do not disrupt
[23:53] the flow in the connection of the campus. So as we design the use center site, we are always
[24:01] recognizing and meshing in with this concept plants that ultimately that campus is cohesive
[24:08] and all the parts and pieces work together.
[24:15] We have anything else to say about the plans and where
[24:18] I'd like to open up for questions or feedback or for comments if you have any at this time.
[24:28] Well first of all, thank you.
[24:29] You guys have done a fabulous, I can't use that term guys often.
[24:33] You people have done a fabulous job.
[24:37] I'm a little surprised to see that there is not space for athletics inside the building at all.
[24:45] So far as I can see am I missing something?
[24:49] maybe if we're defining athletics the same way.
[24:52] So we do have the large blue space on the plan
[24:55] and that's what that shows all the chairs.
[24:57] That is essentially a basketball court in gymnasium.
[25:00] Oh, so the chairs are not set.
[25:03] The chairs are not fixed to the north of that on the plan.
[25:07] Our three large storage rooms.
[25:09] So all of those chairs would be housed in there.
[25:11] It was really just to illustrate how it could be used
[25:13] for both the basketball and physical activity
[25:16] and also for large gatherings.
[25:18] Thank you, I thought that might be the case,
[25:20] but then I thought, yeah, I better ask because, yeah.
[25:23] So, you know, it was just a little surprising to me.
[25:26] I have to say that I, the space itself,
[25:33] if those not class rooms can be used
[25:37] for different types of training and different types of,
[25:41] I can imagine kids getting in there,
[25:43] You know, there are schools have things like there's a thing called Odyssey of the Mind
[25:50] or they have robotics teams and they have, you know, they have stuff like that.
[25:54] And I can imagine groups like that using those spaces for some of these extracurricular activities
[26:02] that are difficult to do.
[26:05] I know when my son did Odyssey of the Mind, we had to do it at my house, which was fun
[26:11] in and of itself, but I'm thrilled, like this is beautiful.
[26:18] Yeah, and that was a common thing.
[26:20] There were a lot of different youth service providers
[26:23] that wanted to do a lot of different things.
[26:26] So one thing we were focused on was making sure
[26:28] that each of this space could function in multiple ways.
[26:33] So flexibility, not permanently installing things
[26:37] that prohibit other uses from going in there,
[26:41] so maintaining flexibility in each of the spaces
[26:42] was important.
[26:43] Talk to me about the pink rooms.
[26:45] The rooms that are listed as shared offices,
[26:49] I believe, right.
[26:50] Hoot and shared by, so on the right hand side of the plan,
[26:53] there's the shared office and kind of co-working space.
[26:58] So as they're illustrated,
[26:59] they're shown in a variety of different places.
[27:03] What's up?
[27:04] What's up?
[27:09] What's up?
[27:10] So each of these right now are shown 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 rooms.
[27:17] They're shown in various arrangements.
[27:20] And so the intention is that some of those rooms
[27:23] could be set up as small two-person offices,
[27:27] if a provider wants to temporarily hotel
[27:30] in one of those offices, because they're seeing youth
[27:33] on a particular day.
[27:34] It could be used as small one-on-one counseling rooms,
[27:38] maybe four-person meeting room.
[27:39] Maybe somebody needs to go in there and do homework.
[27:41] So each of these, the ideas that each of those small office spaces are not each
[27:46] offices, but they could function as study room, office, small meeting space, counseling.
[27:52] So flexible and could change over time, depending on how they're being utilized.
[27:56] But the intention, partly because there are no views to that side.
[28:01] And you are fronting the gas station.
[28:03] It made sense to put the quiet and more, you know,
[28:07] smaller activity space on that side of the plant.
[28:13] That's, again, kind of what we thought, kind of what we had talked about at the beginning.
[28:20] I just want to make sure that I'm picturing this all as it's being presented again.
[28:25] I'm first laying, I'm thrilled, I'm just absolutely thrilled.
[28:32] I have no questions.
[28:34] I have to say that young people are going to have this amazing space.
[28:43] because that was non-existent in my time.
[28:48] But, like when you said they want to rooftop deck,
[28:50] but they're going to get a patio, I'm like,
[28:52] but so yes, they should have the same amenities
[28:55] and respectful spaces as grown-ups, adults
[28:58] and older people do.
[29:00] So I think what you've done is amazing the collaboration
[29:04] that it has taken to get to this point.
[29:06] I can't wait to see this and I wish I could go back in time
[29:11] and be a participant.
[29:12] But thank you to everyone, Ashman, and all the folks that have an open hall played a role in this.
[29:19] This is super exciting.
[29:22] So that's all I have.
[29:24] I apologize.
[29:24] I did have one other thing.
[29:26] And I completely agree with you, Chair.
[29:30] Yes, jealous.
[29:36] The restrooms.
[29:42] If there is going to be, if there are going to be events there, and obviously part of the
[29:47] purposes to have some events there, anybody who's gone to any events always knows that
[29:53] to get into a one's restroom takes twice as long as to get into a man's restroom.
[29:58] And I think that that's true of...
[30:00] Especially for talking teenagers on top of that. So when I first looked at the plans, if you look
[30:08] at the women's room, so there are a couple of different unit sex bathrooms, right? But then you
[30:22] have a men's room and a women's room.
[30:27] And the women's room is slightly larger.
[30:34] They're essentially the same size.
[30:36] It's your nose take up less space than toilets.
[30:39] So I think there's a small difference
[30:41] in the ultimate dimensions.
[30:43] Yeah, I was looking at number of pictures.
[30:48] Let's just call them termals that can be used.
[30:53] And it's like it's three in both, right?
[30:56] That's correct.
[30:58] Personally, I would love to see us add just one more in the women's.
[31:06] And maybe do that with the custodial space that kind of sticks into there if there would be a way of moving that.
[31:14] But again, you're the designers.
[31:18] It's a great space, but it's just when I was looking at it,
[31:21] it's one thing that really did catch my eye
[31:23] was there's never enough women's bathrooms,
[31:27] there's just never enough.
[31:29] I'm in everything else, dealt with this.
[31:32] Thank you.
[31:35] I may be telling on myself that sometimes I don't wait
[31:38] in lines, sometimes I use that other one.
[31:43] That they're not involved with that, right?
[31:47] But there is a gender,
[31:47] gender and neutral facility that can take the overflow as well.
[31:52] Okay, cool.
[31:52] Yeah, the way we've got the restroom bank here,
[31:56] restroom bank here, and then individual gender neutral
[31:59] restroom here with a shower, and then another
[32:04] individual, unisex restroom non-gendered restroom here.
[32:12] Is that it?
[32:13] Cool.
[32:14] Do we have anybody who would like to make public comment
[32:17] comments on this?
[32:19] A bitch and it would be signed up on this.
[32:21] Okay, fantastic.
[32:24] We look forward to the next update
[32:25] and all the progress and please let us know how we can assist.
[32:31] Thank you so much.
[32:34] Okay, we are on to the brick works deferral agreement.
[32:40] Give everybody a minute to clear the room.
[32:43] Hi, Pam.
[32:49] I hope my applicants here somewhere.
[32:55] The error of brick works is asking for,
[32:58] It's because the deferral, a little bit less constructing a portion of a comprehensive plan
[33:09] road that runs through brickworks from West to East, from East to the East property line
[33:21] that borders the Wolf property.
[33:25] They are developing part of the half of the construction of the
[33:30] Comprehensive Road with lots that they are moving forward with.
[33:35] They do want to ask for deferral for approximately half of it.
[33:38] They have provided you with an exhibit here in pink, which is part of the lot
[33:43] five.
[33:44] And that will go with subject to another developer for not five.
[33:49] that plan has gone forward to the PAN Commission at this time and been approved, but with
[33:55] the subdivision of all the lights that's still standing from a conditional approval based
[34:00] on this deferral approval since the road is part of the subdivision of the lights. And that is
[34:09] basically what we're looking for here is your approval, basically for their deferral for that
[34:17] and it's like move forward.
[34:22] Is the developer here too, or to you?
[34:25] I was just, just behind myself.
[34:27] Just behind myself.
[34:29] No, they're bad.
[34:30] Think they're behind you.
[34:31] Come on up.
[34:33] And if you would introduce yourself,
[34:38] and there's another, there's another, my fair,
[34:39] if you can, there you go, press the button.
[34:42] And tell us what you want here.
[34:44] Want to do it.
[34:45] Good afternoon.
[34:46] My name is Eric DeVito.
[34:47] I'm General Counsel for Greenberg Gibbons.
[34:49] We are the developer for the entire brick works
[34:51] project and the applicant for this deferral agreement with me is J. Diamond, who is the director
[34:56] of our development for Greenery Gibbons. We happy to answer any questions about the project
[35:02] as a whole. If you want to update on that, we've certainly prepared to do that. We've
[35:05] been through a number of hearings at the Planning Commission and we've received several rounds
[35:09] of approvals. This particular item is, as Ms. Rep. just said, there is a portion of brickwork
[35:17] We are doing all of the infrastructure for the project.
[35:21] This portion that's in red is associated with a subdivision that's being processed.
[35:27] In conjunction with our plans, but it's NBR is the builder of those townhouses.
[35:32] That lot planned, not five, we call it, not five.
[35:36] It was just approved Monday night by the Planning Commission to move forward.
[35:40] But in conjunction with all the construction and that road specifically needs to tie in with all of their lateral roads
[35:46] in all of their town home roads.
[35:48] This deferral is necessary to say, we'll build up to that point,
[35:52] and then when a lot five is developed
[35:53] with all of those individual site plans
[35:55] and all those additional roads,
[35:56] it's going to be constructed at that time.
[35:59] As opposed to when we do all of the remaining infrastructure
[36:01] for the project.
[36:02] So that's the reason why this request is there.
[36:06] It's not, at any point in time,
[36:08] if for whatever reason, it's not NBR,
[36:10] and we have no reason to believe it isn't,
[36:12] whoever develops a lot five will have to build that section
[36:15] of the road in conjunction with when-lot-five comes.
[36:18] So I'm not sure if that answers questions
[36:20] or provides any additional context,
[36:22] but that's the reason for the deferral request.
[36:24] It's just timing-wise, and it makes all the sense
[36:27] in the world to do it when-lot-five is built,
[36:30] as opposed to building that road there,
[36:32] and then the lots come later.
[36:34] And just the piggyback on what Eric was saying.
[36:36] So I'll point the screen here.
[36:39] So we are going to...
[36:39] Like closer to the mic, please.
[36:41] No worries.
[36:42] We are going to build, is this the SpinoBric work street all the way through to the property boundary.
[36:47] That point that is when NVR is going to pick it up.
[36:49] In this comprehensive plan road, it's been designed to city standards.
[36:53] And then ultimately the Frederick Exchange, which was approved over here,
[36:57] will line to that.
[36:58] So ultimately, one of the, you call this the Wolf Park.
[37:00] I'm sorry.
[37:01] I'm having a very difficult time hearing you.
[37:03] And it's not because of the microphone closed so much as if you could just speak a little more distinctly.
[37:10] That would be helpful.
[37:12] Thank you.
[37:13] So what I was saying, excuse me, is brickwork street right here.
[37:17] This is the Spinder of the Comprehensive Plan Road.
[37:19] We are going to be building all that along the Pug Mill and Lower Depot.
[37:22] And we're going to be ending it at the Lot 5 property boundary.
[37:26] NVR is going to pick it up.
[37:27] This comprehensive plan road has been designed in accordance with the city.
[37:32] And ultimately, we'll end at the Eastern property boundary,
[37:35] which would align with where Frederick Exchange is right here.
[37:38] So, ultimately, once we call this the Wolf parcel is developed, the road will fully extend to further exchange.
[37:47] We were required to design this road and conformance with whatever the comprehensive plan is for that street to continue beyond our property boundary.
[37:56] So, that's why that alignment is there. Future sections will be built by future developers as they come along.
[38:03] A lot five, we control as part of our development, but as we said, we're just asking for this deferral because so it can be constructed when law five is constructed as opposed to an advance.
[38:16] So the deferral is for the construction, but you will be fully designing it so that when it's ready for construction, it's shovel ready.
[38:24] Correct.
[38:25] Yes.
[38:28] So my concern has something to do with the many other people in this room,
[38:36] today. And what happens with developments too often is
[38:41] part of it gets built and is expected to be and kind of ends somewhere or something gets built.
[38:49] And another party is supposed to take care of it. And the people who are moving there don't necessarily know what the plans,
[38:59] what the original plans were,
[39:05] or sometimes what future plans can be, I understand that taking
[39:11] that to the end of your property as a whole actually connects it to nothing. There's nothing
[39:18] there to connect to. But the fact is, where you're proposing taking it to,
[39:25] there's nothing
[39:27] to give a deferral like that, because, again, I would prefer that people who are moving into that area
[39:36] know exactly what's coming, and I don't want them to think, oh, here's a call to Zach,
[39:43] and that other properties are going to stay empty.
[39:49] That's...
[39:50] So, I'm not there yet.
[39:51] Well, I guess to further explain, that road is going to be approved and permitted and bonded.
[39:59] And the question is really just, as we're building out all of this infrastructure, it's being
[40:06] deferred strictly so the person and we are constructing a lot of five can do it on their
[40:12] bonds and their permitting and conjunction with all the other roads that they're building.
[40:17] It is not intended to say, hey, this is going to build 10 years from now.
[40:21] It's intended, so that section of the roadway can be part of the bonding and the construction
[40:26] in the grading permits with everything that goes on on law five.
[40:30] That's really the only reason for it.
[40:32] It is not to say, hey, we may not build this and we're just,
[40:35] yes, in other words, everything that you see here will be built,
[40:38] but it's two different developers.
[40:39] It's being deferred because it's a separate developer building
[40:43] and not because of, it's not.
[40:46] It's not.
[40:46] It's being requested to be deferred.
[40:52] And what, my late husband and I bought our first house
[40:56] in front of town village.
[40:58] Surface app all of Arden was supposed to be built also
[41:02] and the developer went bankrupt.
[41:06] There was a park that was supposed to be built.
[41:09] The developer went bankrupt.
[41:11] What ended up being built was later than it should have been.
[41:17] And the city actually had to pay for parts of that.
[41:22] It was originally not supposed to have to pay for it.
[41:25] So while I understand what you're saying to me,
[41:29] I'm just not necessarily agreeing with you.
[41:32] There is a difference in not understanding something
[41:36] and not agreeing with it.
[41:38] And I'm not there in agreement with you at this point.
[41:44] Doesn't mean that I can't get there.
[41:48] But when you say they're being built in conjunction with one another,
[41:53] I would love to have that other developer, you're saying, yes, and we're willing to sign.
[41:58] Paperwork, saying that we're going to build this out, this particular part of the road out.
[42:02] We're going to build that out at the same time.
[42:05] And we'll happy to address that and either before the next round of discussions or the reality is as correct as I'm wrong.
[42:15] It is a condition to develop a lot of five.
[42:17] That road has to be built or you will not have anyone living on a lot of five.
[42:22] That's part of all of their permits and approvals right now, which we can come back to you and
[42:26] again I understand and please please don't treat this as though I don't understand.
[42:34] I understand that it has to be built for a lot of five to be developed completely understand.
[42:41] My question is timing. That's my question.
[42:44] So, or my concern, it's a concern, we're in a question, and if you already have a developer
[42:55] who is planning on developing that lot, I personally would be much more comfortable with
[43:04] them, sign and agreement that they're going to build the rest of that roadway at the same
[43:11] like right as the part that you're building gets built and then they're going to finish that
[43:16] enough and they'll finish their development as it gets done but it will like it done at the same
[43:23] time. To that end isn't that what the bonding does. The thing that the bonding does not do is
[43:33] let the people who are moving to that area know exactly what's planned and we all know that people should
[43:40] book, but they do not. There are those who do, but a majority of them do not.
[43:51] Okay. So just to be clear today's meeting is not a decision-making meeting. What we will do is decide whether or not to
[44:10] use to discuss and iron out any concerns and there will be five people making a decision
[44:17] at a later date.
[44:19] So if there's anything else that you want any other questions you have?
[44:22] I'm sorry, I think I'm not being, I think maybe I'm not being clear.
[44:27] I believe we have to vote to move it to a public hearing and you don't have my vote.
[44:38] Since this is an agreement and non-ordinance or resolution, it's not really part of our legislative
[44:42] process.
[44:43] for saying it, so I think this is more or less a workshop, so just as if in the past.
[44:49] Okay, so we don't need a motion, we'll just, okay, I appreciate that.
[44:52] Thank you.
[44:53] New process is always something.
[44:56] Okay.
[44:58] Were there any other questions that you had, council member?
[45:11] Now, that's everything I think we're talking about it, but just quickly speak to the logistical requirements of the code. So before they can record any of these plots. So because this project is made up of multiple developers, ultimately, before this developer can sell to the other developers such as
[45:29] five, the plots need to be recorded for those lots, but before any of the lots, these big
[45:35] parcels can be recorded, all of the public improvements shown on the preliminary plot
[45:40] have to be bonded, and public works agreements have to be executed.
[45:44] So there's kind of a logistical issue when you have a project that is going to be divided
[45:50] up and ultimately developed in sections by different developers, because they can't divest
[45:56] themselves from one portion without subdividing it, and in order to subdivide it, they have
[46:02] to bond all those improvements, but this developer doesn't want to bond the improvements
[46:07] for another project, another portion of the project that are also shown on that development
[46:12] plan. So it's, I don't think it's as much related to the long term deferral like we do in
[46:20] some instances where our developers look, this isn't necessary to be constructed right now,
[46:25] because this is a road going to nowhere and we don't want to do it.
[46:28] This is really more about the timing of allowing the development to proceed through the subdivision
[46:33] and development process in accordance with those requirements for bonding and public work
[46:38] agreements.
[46:38] So just want to have that.
[46:42] I understand that.
[46:44] I still don't think that it stops any of the developers, all of the developers, signing
[46:53] contracts saying they're going to provide those public improvements at the same time.
[47:03] I don't see how what you're saying changes that in the least.
[47:09] I mean, we do have the Planning Commission, I've lost track of my development.
[47:14] They've approved the lot five preliminary plot on Monday.
[47:18] The Planning Commission approved the further subdivision of lot five.
[47:21] So where that section of road will go through.
[47:23] So, you know, there's always the possibility that everything goes belly up and nothing moves forward.
[47:28] But the planning mission just granted the preliminary plot approval.
[47:31] So that developer now in the sequencing of things would be going into their improvement plan designs,
[47:36] starting to design that section of road associated with the improvement plan.
[47:40] They would bond and enter into the public works agreement.
[47:44] And they too would have to have that completed before they would subdivide any of the residential lots.
[47:51] Just if the sequencing helps.
[47:56] Would you be open to quick questions, sorry.
[47:59] Again, I feel like I'm being told the same thing again and again and I understand it.
[48:04] So,
[48:07] if there's no more questions.
[48:09] Well, I was going to just because I want to be prepared to do our homework for when this comes back again.
[48:14] I mean, is it, is us showing the bonding of it and the permitting of it,
[48:20] and that progress or that doesn't satisfy your concern.
[48:23] The fact that it will be bonded at the same time
[48:25] this plat is recorded that I'm just curious if that's
[48:28] and that's some of the information you're looking for.
[48:32] So I'm one of five.
[48:38] My concern has to do with it being done at the same time.
[48:43] So just bonding it.
[48:46] Truly there are roads that then were bonded,
[48:50] but they still didn't get built for years and years and years.
[48:55] So I'm looking for an agreement that they will build it
[49:00] at the same time.
[49:03] So that's truly, that's all I'm looking for.
[49:05] Is it agreement that you're building them
[49:08] as you noted earlier in conjunction with one another?
[49:11] That's all I'm looking for.
[49:13] Okay, thank you.
[49:17] Is there any public comment on this item?
[49:21] All right, thank you so much.
[49:31] Sorry, I'm talking a little bit difficult to use up here.
[49:34] Okay, so this moves us to our final item today,
[49:38] and we have a large audience for it.
[49:40] Welcome.
[49:41] We don't usually have this many people, so it's nice to see your faces.
[49:46] This is a discussion of a request for the city to assume ownership
[49:50] and maintenance of the Wormons Mill Emergency Access Road
[49:53] and Bridge.
[49:54] and I'll just note again that if you have submitted e-commence or e-mails, they are part of the record.
[50:02] You don't need to come up and testify or give public comment when this is over. You certainly may.
[50:09] But we do have a hard stop at three. Just to let you know.
[50:14] And with that, I'll let Tracy begin.
[50:15] Good
[50:25] afternoon, test, test, test, test, we're good.
[50:30] Tracy Coleman, Deputy Director of Public Works.
[50:33] Thank you for the opportunity to share this.
[50:37] Request with you as Council Member Russell pointed out.
[50:42] This is a request from the Mormon's Mill Conservancy.
[50:45] I'll make noise, sorry, that the city consider and determine that the obligations in the road declaration, which is one of your attachments, are no longer required, and that the city assume ownership, liability, and maintenance responsibilities of the emergency access road and bridge that crosses Tuskora Creek.
[51:07] Give you a little bit of background, actually, Clara, could we put up Exhibit 8, the GIS,
[51:21] Parkland exhibit,
[51:25] oh, you can't, okay, all right, nevermind.
[51:28] So there is an exhibit, exhibit 8 will help.
[51:31] It is a GIS showing the location of the bridge where the Parkland is and where the HOA
[51:40] open space are eight seven's also it's a seven is a plat, but yeah I was on seven and I was like
[51:49] I knew that I knew that I had seen a different one. Okay so for a little bit of background
[51:57] and I apologize for reading some of this but I want to make sure I give you enough information
[52:05] In February 1999, the City Planning Commission approved the Women's Mil P&D, 92-05R,
[52:15] with several conditions, including the requirement to provide an emergency access road
[52:20] in Bridge across the Tuscore Creek, to provide vehicular access, should the Mil Island Bridge
[52:27] or Mil Island Parkway Bridge become inaccessible, and the conditions further required that the
[52:36] I've included this specific conditions below for your ready reference and I've also attached the planning commission conditional approval letter that's attachment C3.
[52:50] Condition five establishes the requirement for the access road in bridge and also basically assigns the HOA or the planning commission's desire to assign the HOA the maintenance responsibility.
[53:06] And then Condition six is a requirement of the developer to create all the documentation assigning that maintenance responsibility.
[53:15] Thank you. Yes, that's the one. I'll get to that in a moment.
[53:24] So there are other documents that I wanted to highlight. The HOA documents, if you will,
[53:34] that are mentioned, are the Declaration of Covenants and Conditions and Restrictions
[53:40] of the Warmen's Mill Conservancy. Those are recorded in the Frederick County Land Records.
[53:48] They were originally recorded in 1988, rather than revising these Conservancy Covenants,
[53:58] the developer created supplemental documents with the intent of meeting the Planning Commission's
[54:06] In August 2000, warm-all development, the developer recorded a declaration of Covenants
[54:14] that I will refer to as the road's declaration.
[54:18] It assign responsibility for maintenance of the emergency access road and bridge to the
[54:24] lots on-mill island. That is also an attachment.
[54:31] Number four, I believe.
[54:38] I included some of the language in it. I won't read that. You can read it yourself if you would
[54:45] And I can answer questions about it.
[54:47] I did want to point out that section or paragraph three of the road's declaration states that in the event that the lots are annexed and made subject to the effect and operation of the
[55:00] We'll call them HOA documents.
[55:02] The road declaration may be superseded and nullified by a supplementary declaration.
[55:07] And there's a bit more in there.
[55:09] I'm not going to read it all.
[55:12] And then beginning in June of 2006,
[55:15] the developer began recording the supplementary declarations
[55:20] for the lots in section seven and eight,
[55:23] the Mill Island portion of the Mormon's Mill community.
[55:26] The primary purpose of those supplementary declarations
[55:29] is to serve as that instrument that annexes lots
[55:33] into the Conservancy.
[55:34] Each supplementary declaration also includes a statement indicating that the lots reference
[55:43] shall continue to be subject to all provisions of the road's declaration.
[55:51] So while the developer may have intended to assign the conservancy, the responsibility to maintain
[55:58] emergency road and bridge on behalf of the property owners by creating these various documents.
[56:05] There is some disagreement as to whether they clearly do.
[56:10] City staff's position is that they do, but we're not here to argue that today.
[56:16] We're here to determine if we as a city are willing to take on the responsibility.
[56:21] I put this in here so that you are aware of the progress of the documentation.
[56:33] Make sure I read what I plan to.
[56:37] And then to further complicate the matter because having all those documents is very
[56:42] complicating to get through.
[56:45] The road and bridge cross two properties with different owners.
[56:48] So, as you can see above, in this exhibit, and with one of the other items attached, the
[56:57] platt, the city has been deeded the parkland to the north of the Tuscorer Creek.
[57:06] In this area, the conservancy was deeded the open space to the south of Tuscorer Creek.
[57:14] And so, the road exists on both the north side and the south side, the bridge, of course, crosses the river.
[57:23] So it's right smack dive in the middle, which is where the property line is.
[57:29] The parkland, unless you want details on those particular properties, I'll skip over that part.
[57:40] Both the deeds include language conveying the respective parcels together with all the buildings, improvements, ways and easements, etc.
[57:48] This language has led to some confusion because it has been taken to mean that the portion of the road, that a portion of the road and bridge on each parcel have been conveyed to each parcel owner.
[58:01] excuse me. I'll slow down. However, the deeds also include language stating the conveyed property is subject, however,
[58:12] to all easements, covenants, conditions, etc., which means that the requirements of the road declaration remain in effect.
[58:20] And again, I bring this to you just to so that you understand the documentation that is in place.
[58:28] The both needs do reference the 30-foot wide emergency access easement that is dedicated to the city in two-fredder county.
[58:37] Again, the intent of this roadway is for vehicular emergency access should the surface of the bridge on Mill Island Parkway be blocked and that they can't access it.
[58:54] The emergency access bridge was constructed in 2002 and the road was constructed in 2003,
[59:01] or at least they were finished in those years.
[59:03] I'm sure they were under construction before that.
[59:07] They were designed in accordance with the Planning Commission requirements.
[59:10] The developer coordinated with the city engineer and the Frederick County Fire Martial
[59:14] to develop those design requirements.
[59:17] When the design was completed, it was reviewed and approved by the city engineer.
[59:21] the Frederick County Fire Marshall, the Maryland Department of Environment, and eventually FEMA.
[59:28] The road of bridge are in a good condition.
[59:31] The Conservancy has repaired some erosion around the bridge, abutment, wing walls, and
[59:38] replaced about 85 square feet of an approach on the north side of asphalt.
[59:44] One thing I did want to just state for the record, the city did not direct any of these
[59:50] pairs.
[59:53] In 2021, the manager of the Conservancy came to the city.
[1:00:00] And honestly, that's when this whole onion fell apart, and we learned who was responsible for what?
[1:00:12] Until the need for the repair was identified in 2021, as I mentioned, neither the conservatory manager nor the city staff were aware that maintenance and repair of the bridge and the road was not the responsibility of the developer.
[1:00:25] We thought it was still under a bond, it was not, or the city, at the same time, it became apparent that Department of Fire Rescue Services were also unaware that the Rotem Bridge existed, which is basically its primary purpose.
[1:00:45] I can assure you that Frederick County DFRS, at least the top guy, is aware that the
[1:00:52] road in bridge exists and should be available should the need arise.
[1:00:58] And I am happy to say, and I think some of the comments that have been provided back
[1:01:04] this up, but it's never been used for its intended purpose, which is a great thing.
[1:01:10] Let's see.
[1:01:14] Let's do it.
[1:01:18] Let me see.
[1:01:24] Just one thing that I would like to note. So me, we
[1:01:32] staff made a recommendation.
[1:01:37] It's written in here and I would like to note that the only
[1:01:40] reason that I made the recommendation is because of the purpose of the road in bridge.
[1:01:47] It's intended or they, in combination are intended to be used for emergency access by the city or a Frederick County.
[1:01:58] Many HOAs, including the Conservancy, maintain somewhat major pieces of infrastructure, roads, alleys, stormwater facilities, community centers, pools.
[1:02:09] We even have an older townhouse community responsible for their water distribution and sewer collection system.
[1:02:19] I'm not aware of any that are required to maintain an emergency access road or bridge,
[1:02:24] so I wasn't aware that this requirement existed before 2021.
[1:02:31] However, again, my recommendation for releasing the lots and basically nullifying the roads
[1:02:41] covenant is because I feel that by taking ownership the city would ensure that the bridge
[1:02:48] is kept. In the condition necessary for use by the city, and DFRS should it need to be used,
[1:02:58] And with that, I will be happy to answer any questions.
[1:03:07] So if I might, I actually was on that planning commission that made that decision and
[1:03:13] on that board of older men.
[1:03:16] And to say we didn't see this coming would be far-fetched.
[1:03:21] We absolutely saw this coming.
[1:03:25] the board of Alderman did at least the planning to wish they
[1:03:29] think was, and it was my first year in office and I was a bit
[1:03:33] naive. So I can care with staff that the, it's
[1:03:43] unfair to expect that
[1:03:45] consistency is going to take care of this. It is, but I would, but I do
[1:03:51] have a couple of questions about it.
[1:03:55] So before you go on, I just want to let you know that we also
[1:03:58] have a representative of the Conservancy here, Jim Hubbard,
[1:04:02] who was a promise him an opportunity to talk with us
[1:04:07] about the information that he has served about 10 minutes.
[1:04:11] And then I thought you had the baby that will help.
[1:04:15] Yeah, I wasn't sure how if we were to do a staff thing for us.
[1:04:20] So welcome, would you just tell us your name in general address?
[1:04:23] Thank you.
[1:04:23] My name is Jim Hubbard.
[1:04:25] Address is 2303.
[1:04:27] No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
[1:04:32] And I represent the Board of Trustees of the Conservancy.
[1:04:35] I'm going to build on what Tracy said and go to 2021 when a repair was deemed necessary.
[1:04:43] Can you just pull the I'm sorry, the microphone.
[1:04:45] Yeah, are you doing the same thing I am?
[1:04:47] Let me get a little closer.
[1:04:48] Perfect.
[1:04:50] Thank you.
[1:04:51] Thank you.
[1:04:53] Thank you.
[1:04:53] The repair was completed in the Conservancy Board assessed each law donor for an appropriate
[1:04:59] basis for the cost of the repair.
[1:05:02] They also set up a reserve fund for future maintenance and repairs.
[1:05:06] This came as a very huge surprise to the members of the law donors on Mill Island.
[1:05:12] Nobody knew that declaration existed and I'll tell you why.
[1:05:16] I miss Gazette and Chuck, you mentioned that they don't read it.
[1:05:20] When I went to settlement on my property, the homeowner document is literally that thick.
[1:05:26] And it's, that road declaration is about three inches down in the middle of all that paper
[1:05:31] work.
[1:05:32] There was no way to read it.
[1:05:34] Nobody knew it existed, ultimately, the road declaration became public knowledge, and it
[1:05:41] caused a lot of consternation and confusion.
[1:05:43] And the board then decided that since there was nothing in the road declaration requiring the
[1:05:49] HOA to administer the process of maintenance and repair that they had no obligation and
[1:05:56] no authority to do the assessments.
[1:05:59] So they dissolved the reserve fund and that money was refunded.
[1:06:05] Since the paratocost of the repair was taken from a reserve from another portion of the reserve fund, the board felt it necessary to repay that, and therefore the repair portion of the assessment was not refunded.
[1:06:22] That's still under discussion in the community when I won't get into it here.
[1:06:27] When the Wormall companies needed their land to the city and to the Conservancy in 2023 I believe it was the left all the park land north of the Creek to the city.
[1:06:46] It's now a park land. The rest of the property south of the Creek now belongs to the Conservancy.
[1:06:51] The property line runs right through the middle of that bridge.
[1:06:55] So you own part of it and we own part of it.
[1:06:58] So the question is who pays?
[1:07:01] Well that leaves us in a quandary.
[1:07:04] Given the fact that the HOA has absolved itself
[1:07:08] of any responsibility or authority
[1:07:11] to assess funds for repair and maintenance,
[1:07:15] there's no practical way to pay for any future repairs.
[1:07:19] either the city goes to court and forces the HOA to perform on it or the city bills each
[1:07:26] homeowner. And I'm not prepared to speculate on what might happen if 657 lot owners get
[1:07:33] an assessment from the city for a road and bridge that belongs to the city. That's a if he
[1:07:39] proposition. The residents of Wormons Mill are now paying for liability insurance on city
[1:07:45] property. And we wonder about the propriety of that. The emergency road and bridge is Tracy said
[1:07:52] has never been used in 23 years of existence. There in the road and bridge are in the flood
[1:07:58] pain. They are subject to flooding and snow cover. And I think you have been sent some pictures
[1:08:03] about that.
[1:08:07] There has been another group associated and working on this and we have worked closely
[1:08:11] with them. They're known as the Concern Citizens. They wait in with city officials early on.
[1:08:18] And I think you'll hear from them today, and they've worked closely with us on this issue
[1:08:22] with the board and with myself. So we're asking for the city to vacate the road declaration
[1:08:28] by a warm held, and the city is soon full responsibility for the bridge and easement. And I thank
[1:08:34] you for this opportunity. I'm ready to answer questions. And I need to thank Tracy Coleman
[1:08:39] for her help in addressing this issue over the years.
[1:08:44] She was helpful in writing a history report for the board.
[1:08:49] So thank you, Tracy.
[1:08:52] Thank you.
[1:08:53] Thank you, Mr. Trevor.
[1:08:55] So we'll field some questions now.
[1:08:59] Do you have any?
[1:09:01] I don't have any.
[1:09:04] Well, I do have a couple of specific questions.
[1:09:06] I can't tell you who they're meant for though.
[1:09:14] Can you give me this sign-up sheet for I raise one, I'm trying to mine up here?
[1:09:20] So my first is a comment.
[1:09:22] My comment about not reading has nothing to do with buyers as a realtor.
[1:09:26] I know the amount of documents that you sign it closing.
[1:09:29] And that ends up being you have the plat and it's one line in about 20 lines on it.
[1:09:36] And this is different than where some things are located and what's planned there.
[1:09:45] So please, I didn't mean that as a put down.
[1:09:49] My question really has more to do with the bridge itself than would completely belong to the city.
[1:09:57] and the 30 feet right of way then would that all just become city property?
[1:10:05] Right now there is the easement that exists so it doesn't necessarily start like the
[1:10:12] 30 feet of the 30 foot wide easement on the H-O-A side does not have to be conveyed.
[1:10:22] I can't lay him fee simple, the easement exists.
[1:10:27] So one of my frustration in the years of research
[1:10:31] that I've done on this is that there is no written easement document.
[1:10:36] Typically, if there is any kind of an easement on a property,
[1:10:39] there's a written document that accompanies it.
[1:10:43] And it outlines roles, responsibilities,
[1:10:45] you know, I can give you examples, but I don't want to bore you with that.
[1:10:50] So, I think in this case, if we were to write up that easement document to accompany this,
[1:11:00] I'm sorry, to accompany the plat, refer to the plat where it identifies that 30 foot wide easement,
[1:11:08] we could have language in that that defines responsibility for maintenance of the structure and of the roadway all the way from
[1:11:21] and mill race road, I'm sorry, all the way from mill race to the south where the 30 foot emergency easement ends.
[1:11:29] Okay, so it's not, it's not a problem, it's just another document that needs to be done at the same time.
[1:11:35] I think so.
[1:11:37] And I do want to note that when we did this, when we insisted that there had to be some type of emergency access
[1:11:49] The Department of Foreign Rescue was absolutely
[1:11:53] to come and speak at the meeting and okay it,
[1:11:56] because otherwise we would have never voted yes on it.
[1:11:59] So I realize again, many, many, many years later,
[1:12:04] but those things happen.
[1:12:07] Yep, so no, I'm good, thank you very much.
[1:12:12] OK, I don't have a question, but I do have some people
[1:12:15] signed up.
[1:12:17] And so we'll go through the sign-up this first,
[1:12:19] And then if there's anybody else after that that wants to speak,
[1:12:23] he can come up again if it's three minutes.
[1:12:25] And then after all the public comment has been taken,
[1:12:27] we'll bring it back up here and see if there's anything else
[1:12:30] that we need to tie up with the loose ends.
[1:12:33] So I also wanted to mention that on our screen
[1:12:36] is Mr. Rivia, who's the attorney for the conservancy
[1:12:40] from White Moore Taylor, and I forget, anyway.
[1:12:44] He has to be here virtually to support his crew.
[1:12:47] We don't anticipate needing anything from him
[1:12:49] unless we have a legal question for him.
[1:12:52] So thanks for being here on the big screen.
[1:12:55] So first, first we have Katherine Mansour.
[1:12:59] Is that we just need to state your name for the record
[1:13:04] and general address?
[1:13:05] We don't need the street address unless you're
[1:13:06] the captain.
[1:13:07] My name is Katherine Mansour and I resided
[1:13:10] what is known as Mel Island.
[1:13:12] As the others is stated or put in writing,
[1:13:15] the bridge is really no way to emergence the access bridge.
[1:13:20] It's underwater, whenever there's a flood,
[1:13:24] as fire engines have gotten bigger and heavier,
[1:13:27] I'm not sure it would support the current ones.
[1:13:31] The fire trucks don't even know that it's there.
[1:13:35] These are some concerns in the fact that we're asked
[1:13:39] to be responsible to maintain it is really not just.
[1:13:44] I understand the land and even perhaps the road
[1:13:47] On both sides of where the bridges had been turned over to the city, by
[1:13:53] Warmald, and is now called Warmen's Mill Park.
[1:13:56] So this is a park that's open to the public.
[1:14:00] Why should the residents just on one side of this bridge be responsible to remain
[1:14:05] pain of bridge that is in the city park?
[1:14:09] A park that's open to the public, not just the residents of Warmen's Mill.
[1:14:14] I kept pictures here, and I didn't manage to find your East Statement thing, so I will
[1:14:20] email them to you.
[1:14:21] The shows pictures I took this morning of the two entrances to the road, the bridge itself,
[1:14:28] and to show that the Shravery is, three limbs are hanging over the road, it's really not
[1:14:34] very accessible to traffic, and it's not very wide.
[1:14:38] The bridge is a little wider, but the rest of the road isn't.
[1:14:41] I concur with the Department of Public Works recommendation that we really believe that we
[1:14:48] be relieved of this unjust responsibility.
[1:14:51] Thank you very much.
[1:14:53] Thank you, Mayor.
[1:14:54] Next time our list is filled with our timer.
[1:15:06] Thank you, ma'am. My name is Phil Berkheimer. I am the president of the Wormman's Mill Conservancy Board of Trustees
[1:15:15] and I'm a resident of the Tuskwarra condos in the Conservancy. First of all, let me thank you for hearing us.
[1:15:25] Let me proceed that by thanking Tracy Coleman for all the work that she has done and Jim Hubbard for being a fantastic
[1:15:33] representative for us throughout this entire process. We really appreciate what his
[1:15:38] has taken place and what they've done.
[1:15:44] I want to assure you that it is really appreciate,
[1:15:47] although this only affects directly half of the residents of Web Warmen's mill,
[1:15:55] rest assured that all of them really appreciate what you're doing by letting us present this case.
[1:16:02] This is something that happened a quarter of a century ago.
[1:16:09] Nobody really was aware of what was going on,
[1:16:12] and 20 years later they did become aware of it.
[1:16:16] And it subsequently became a front burner item for us
[1:16:19] for the last three or four years.
[1:16:26] Our current situation basically developed
[1:16:29] because things did become noticed.
[1:16:31] And, resolve a significant amount of divisiveness on the part of our community, and that's very unfortunate.
[1:16:41] The hearing today is the resolve of a great deal of work that's done by everyone to get this thing really under control.
[1:16:49] A great deal of work by our residents and city staff, and we're certainly happy that you've done that for us.
[1:16:57] We sincerely hope that you will put this onerous issue to use an overused phrase into the dust
[1:17:09] bin of history.
[1:17:10] We would really just kind of like to see it disappear and we'd like to see you take over
[1:17:15] everything.
[1:17:16] So, thank you very much for hearing me.
[1:17:20] Thanks, sir.
[1:17:21] We have Dr. Wayne Ledbetter next.
[1:17:23] Thank
[1:17:29] you to the Council for allowing us to speak.
[1:17:33] I am a resident of at Mill Island since 2007,
[1:17:38] and I represent the concerned residents of Mill Island.
[1:17:42] We are the resident arm, if you will, of the Conservancy,
[1:17:46] working conjunction with Mr. Hubbard and Mr. Perkheimer.
[1:17:50] And I don't have anything material to add to all the things that you have been provided,
[1:17:54] but I will point out three things.
[1:17:56] One is that you will see from the comments on the e-commerce that there is a universal support for the proposal to vacate the declaration and have your help with maintaining the bridge.
[1:18:11] I think that is representative in this case of the feelings of light feelings of our community.
[1:18:17] I would also call your attention to the images that we sent you of the bridge.
[1:18:22] I presume you got them good and then you can see that it's a lovely structure for recreational
[1:18:28] purposes used a ton for that reason and I think that it should be continued and that function
[1:18:35] would be lovely to have that feature in the new park so that's nice but it in the modern
[1:18:43] sense of the word with the new trucks and various things that are now answering emergencies.
[1:18:51] It probably has become obsolete in some ways.
[1:18:57] And then, thirdly, I would raise one issue that I haven't heard spoken about, and that's
[1:19:02] that we would look to the city to initiate a relief of the lean on our properties, which this
[1:19:10] was passively creates such that we have an obligation that we have to declare in any sales contract
[1:19:19] and then any other buyer has to assume.
[1:19:22] So we would need your help with that in the future.
[1:19:25] Thank you so much for your help in this matter.
[1:19:28] Thank you, Dr.
[1:19:29] We have next Edward Roy Conner and then Patricia Conner's Conner and then Patricia Conner
[1:19:36] and then Fred Stahl in that order.
[1:19:40] Good afternoon. My name is Ed Woodroy Conner. I'm a resident of
[1:19:45] Mill Island and I am fatacly endorsed the DPW's recommendations or released a
[1:19:49] lots from the obligation detailed in road declaration and for the city to assume
[1:19:54] ownership liability and maintenance responsibilities of the emergency access
[1:19:59] road and bridge crossing Tuscaroar Creek. When we bought our house on Mill Island we
[1:20:05] who had never informed of the obligation and or the related costs associated with the maintenance
[1:20:11] repair and replacement of the emergency road in bridge.
[1:20:15] Let me be crystal clear on this.
[1:20:17] We were not told of nor presented with any related documents, especially the road declaration.
[1:20:25] We definitely did not sign or initial any acknowledgement of any document related to any such
[1:20:33] obligation. Any statement to the contrary is inaccurate. The law firm of white fatailer
[1:20:40] and pest and LLP, which represents the warmen's military and deconservancy, has communicated
[1:20:46] with the city attorney Rachel Nesson. Based upon the road declaration, this law firm has noted
[1:20:53] that all of the individual lot owners are collectively responsible for the maintenance repair
[1:21:00] and replacement of this road in bridge.
[1:21:03] Additionally, they noted that the maintenance repair
[1:21:06] and replacement of this road in bridge
[1:21:09] is neither a function nor an obligation
[1:21:12] of the Romance Null Community Conservancy, the HOA.
[1:21:17] Because of that, the HOA will not assess
[1:21:20] nor correct any funds related to the road in bridge
[1:21:24] from what owners normally enter into any further cleaning,
[1:21:28] Maintenance or repair contracts related to the road and bridge.
[1:21:32] Therefore, the consideration is that the city will need to coordinate with all 657
[1:21:41] lot owners in order to effectuate any maintenance repair or replacement of the road or bridge.
[1:21:49] This is an untenable situation.
[1:21:52] There are hundreds of mill island residents that expect their elected officials on the city council
[1:21:57] to do the right thing by releasing them from this obligation.
[1:22:02] With the establishment of the City of Fredericks Womens Mill Park,
[1:22:07] the vast majority of the emergency road in bridge,
[1:22:12] the road along with the bridge has been transferred to the city.
[1:22:16] Since the city now owns it mostly,
[1:22:19] the city should be at a responsibility for it
[1:22:22] as it already does for similar roads throughout the city of Fredericks.
[1:22:26] Thank you for your time.
[1:22:28] Thank you, Mr. Connor.
[1:22:30] Mr. Connor?
[1:22:34] All right.
[1:22:34] Thank you.
[1:22:35] Appreciate that.
[1:22:36] Fred Stahl.
[1:22:38] No comments for Mr. Stahl.
[1:22:40] Is there anybody else who wishes to add public comments?
[1:22:45] We have, please give us your name and general address.
[1:22:49] My name is Heidi Spurt.
[1:22:51] And I live on Monacacy Ford Road on Milan.
[1:22:55] And I'm not going to elaborate anything more.
[1:22:57] but I'm a bike writer and a walker and that road and bridge are used not just by
[1:23:05] warm and smell residents. All the people who are on water side and Tuscarora
[1:23:10] Knows also come down and walk in that area. It's not just for warm and
[1:23:14] smell. That's it. Thank you. Thank you, man. And we have our esteemed former mayor
[1:23:22] Senator, Mr. Iranian, welcome.
[1:23:27] Thank you.
[1:23:27] I'll be very quick.
[1:23:28] I think most of what needs to be said has been said.
[1:23:34] Except I have a couple of things.
[1:23:37] I walk my dogs back there regularly as does my wife.
[1:23:41] The so-called road is no wider now than a walking path.
[1:23:47] Most of the road was just gravel on its gone.
[1:23:53] The bridge, as it's been said, it's never been used and I think it probably never will be.
[1:24:01] And even whether we have it or the city takes it which I agree and hope you might.
[1:24:08] I don't think it ever needs to be upgraded or a lot of money spent on it.
[1:24:13] There are real islands in the state that only have one bridge to them, and I say real islands
[1:24:21] we're called Mill Island because of a creek in the river, but we're not really in Island
[1:24:26] as people know islands, and we have one good solid bridge going in.
[1:24:32] I've had people say, well what if there's an accident on that bridge?
[1:24:37] I was on the bridge committee, and one night walking up to it, there was an accident on
[1:24:41] bridge, and they pulled the car over to one side, a police officer arrived, directed traffic
[1:24:48] for 20 minutes in the one lane, they towed everybody away, and it was open again.
[1:24:56] So whether we keep it, which I hope we don't, or the city takes it, it will be your choice
[1:25:02] if you do, but I don't really think that that bridge is necessary other than, as a walking
[1:25:08] bridge, you can determine that but I doubt that it would ever be used and I would just hope
[1:25:16] is everyone asked that you relieve the residents back there of figuring out what to do if
[1:25:22] something happens. Thank you.
[1:25:24] Thank you very much. Okay.
[1:25:29] Last call for public comment. Do we have any more questions from
[1:25:34] here.
[1:25:37] So, there's been the comment was made about the relief of the lean, what have
[1:25:43] he done at the same time as we are. Well, I actually would like to have some conversation
[1:25:51] about the need for building an actual road there. I mean, I understand that the, I understand
[1:26:00] and agree that the city should take over whatever we have,
[1:26:06] but I think the point has been
[1:26:07] well made and I remember the conversations back then that were happening really had to do with
[1:26:14] whether there was, whether if there was an accident on the road and at that time in the world
[1:26:23] There was concern about it being blown up.
[1:26:30] I remember having that conversation, and then there being no possible way to get to the island.
[1:26:40] So I guess I would like city staff opinion on the need to continue with anything more than a footpath like path.
[1:26:55] And then I need to know about the lean.
[1:27:02] So I wouldn't reduce what is there.
[1:27:08] I someplace in this pile of stuff.
[1:27:10] I do have the requirements that were established.
[1:27:15] I'm
[1:27:18] not going to search through those.
[1:27:21] As Mr. Young pointed out, it's fairly narrow.
[1:27:24] The roadways for early narrow.
[1:27:26] It's supposed to be 20 feet wide of pavement because that's fire code, and I can explain
[1:27:34] the reason for that.
[1:27:35] It doesn't have to be 20 feet wide, 12 feet is sufficient,
[1:27:41] at least in that location.
[1:27:45] We have a piece of infrastructure, it has an intended purpose, it was designed and constructed,
[1:27:53] and it is sufficient to provide, to me, that intended purpose.
[1:28:02] So until it becomes such a burden, cost-wise, I really, I don't want to give it up.
[1:28:12] Let's just put it that way.
[1:28:14] I don't think it's a great idea to say right now, you know, let's take it out and put something
[1:28:21] And I don't think that was the intent of anybody here,
[1:28:26] I just, I think it's I agree with some of the comments, it's a beautiful path for walkers, bikers, anybody who goes along that trail and it will be used more and more and more and more, especially as some of the other trails in the region are connected, for instance, the,
[1:28:51] I forget what it's called, but it's running up, walkers will Southern, what is it? I can't read walkers will Southern, yes.
[1:28:59] I can't see unless I have my glasses on, can't see you guys.
[1:29:03] So
[1:29:07] I wouldn't change it, let's just put it that way.
[1:29:12] The only thing that I would typically ask for in any time, anything is turned over to the city is that it is in good repair.
[1:29:19] that the city does not have to immediately spend, you know, a significant amount of money to get it in good repair.
[1:29:29] So it's been, I don't know, six months or so maybe since the last time I was out there,
[1:29:35] I don't recall the road being in terrible disrepair.
[1:29:39] So I don't think there are any issues with the roadway.
[1:29:43] The only issues that I recall from the bridge were there was some minor cracking in the concrete on the wing walls of the abutment not the of the bridge not the abutment themselves.
[1:29:55] I could have our building maintenance crew go out with me we can take a look.
[1:30:00] So I can see if it's a fairly minor repair.
[1:30:05] So that's to the condition. And from before you leave that,
[1:30:09] before you leave that, because I just want to ask on to that. So we had nobody's actually talked about money.
[1:30:17] Right? So just that of curiosity, do we know if it were? I guess we would send somebody out and inspect it if it's up to speed to the point where we would take it,
[1:30:28] like it's in good repair.
[1:30:31] Do we have any projections on what
[1:30:32] feature maintenance costs would be to the city?
[1:30:36] I don't, but I can try to put together something
[1:30:39] some kind of information with respect to that.
[1:30:45] It's in the, one of the old reserve studies,
[1:30:49] there's a dollar value I'm not going to dig through,
[1:30:53] that in 25 to 40 years from when it was built,
[1:30:58] They were planning on potential major repairs.
[1:31:06] It's not a very sophisticated bridge.
[1:31:08] It's got stringers, steel beams,
[1:31:13] and a deck, concrete abutments.
[1:31:17] It's a fairly simple structure.
[1:31:19] Most of that, honestly, could be repaired
[1:31:22] by our building maintenance staff.
[1:31:26] Great, thank you.
[1:31:27] Okay.
[1:31:30] So I'm not an attorney, I am not going to try to speak as an attorney, but I'm going to try
[1:31:35] to outline what I think probably should happen. We would create some kind of a document
[1:31:44] to, again, not an attorney extinguish. The road's declaration, somehow that could be found
[1:31:55] by the when searching for the documents that are the supplementary declarations that I described.
[1:32:05] I'm confusing you. Maybe I should stop talking.
[1:32:09] No, it's not confusing me as elected official. You're confusing me as a realtor.
[1:32:17] So, right. So, I think a lean is created because there's, yeah, because the title
[1:32:24] company, there's a declaration, there's a covenant, there's something attached to that property.
[1:32:30] So, again, to try to be, because I only can see it really, I think, in a simple form,
[1:32:37] because I haven't really thought about how to do it yet, would be to kind of go backwards.
[1:32:45] and somehow have a document that's created that is found when searching, when doing the
[1:32:52] title search for individual properties. So I have an example and I have provided it to the
[1:33:00] Council before of a supplementary declaration, right? And those supplementary declarations
[1:33:07] are specific to groups of lots,
[1:33:16] and on the supplementary declaration, there is a statement,
[1:33:19] and it's in my executive summary, exactly what it says, it says that the road's covenant
[1:33:26] is still subject to the road's declaration.
[1:33:30] I think if we create something that is attached to somehow every single one of the lots, a title
[1:33:39] search would find it and then that would relieve that lean requirement.
[1:33:46] I'm sorry I'd like to chime in.
[1:33:48] Thank you.
[1:33:51] So if the council agrees to terminate this covenant, it won't run with the line.
[1:33:58] So it won't run with the line.
[1:33:59] So it won't bind subsequent homeowners.
[1:34:02] And then there's a language in the declaration that says that,
[1:34:05] If there is a program to assessments and the home owners fail to pay that assessment, then it could result in a lean over the aproposies, but I don't think that a lean currently exists since there hasn't been any such assessment.
[1:34:20] So I don't think there's a lean on less the HOA some way had a lean over the aproposies, but I don't think the CT has a lean over any of the aproposies currently.
[1:34:29] So what I would like to be sure is that we are actually working with a title attorney
[1:34:37] as we do this so that when any person goes to sell their property, they're not hit with
[1:34:46] a cost that they didn't realize they would be hit with because we are removing a line
[1:34:52] off of the plot.
[1:34:54] which in essence is what we're doing.
[1:34:56] We're just taking a line off the plats and that, you know,
[1:35:02] that's, so that wouldn't be my intent.
[1:35:04] So like I said, there has to be other documents.
[1:35:09] Like if the council as a whole agrees with the request,
[1:35:16] and they case this road declaration,
[1:35:19] there's more work that has to go on with that.
[1:35:21] And yes, so one is, one thing that definitely needs to happen is an easement document, like a written easement document that goes along with the easement that is noted on the plat, as well as a document or more than one document that describes the vacation of the road's declaration and, and I agree, you know, perhaps we use a title attorney or
[1:35:51] or between us in working possibly with Mr. Via or someone and sure that whatever document
[1:36:01] is used to vacate that covenant, that road's declaration. I'm sorry. That road's declaration
[1:36:08] is somehow tied to properties so that when a title search is done. I'm sorry. I use the
[1:36:17] It's a total search and that is true, but it is more about the bank than is the title company, right?
[1:36:25] So when the word lien comes up, the person who's providing the loan to the buyer gets very nervous, right?
[1:36:37] And so I just want to make sure that however we're doing this, and I'm sure that legally it can be done,
[1:36:44] I just want to make sure that we're working with the right people, so the people who own the properties now, and the people who want to purchase them in the future aren't getting smacked with some fee, because of this lean, because the word lean being somewhere doesn't belong then.
[1:37:05] That's all. I mean, I'm not saying how to do it. I don't know how to do it. I don't know how to do it.
[1:37:14] Can I be heard?
[1:37:16] Are you sure, Mr. Dale?
[1:37:18] You sat very, very patiently.
[1:37:20] I'll let you address this.
[1:37:21] Thank you.
[1:37:22] This question is obviously it's been on our mind for some time,
[1:37:27] assuming that the council would have seen to what we think
[1:37:31] is a sense of resolution.
[1:37:33] And that is, if you look at the road declaration in paragraph 1,
[1:37:37] it talks about the obligation of 657 people to maintain
[1:37:43] and repair the road and the bridge.
[1:37:45] But I would go on to say that this obligation is going to be,
[1:37:49] it's going to be voiding if the city makes a determination
[1:37:54] that their obligations, their financial obligations,
[1:37:58] is no longer recall.
[1:38:01] That presuming that you do that, which you would have to do,
[1:38:04] to take over the maintenance and repair,
[1:38:06] and a document can be recorded in the land records,
[1:38:09] which would be picked up by title searches.
[1:38:11] I'm both the bank and bought by type of searches and type of attorneys representing buyers and sellers.
[1:38:19] And then we would be able to supplement that with documentation that extinguishes any need responsibility for any subsequent purchase.
[1:38:30] That would be recorded in the land records that would run with the land.
[1:38:33] And I think that would resolve all of these concerns.
[1:38:37] Thank you, I'm seeing heads nodding in agreement from our legal staff as well.
[1:38:45] Okay, Mr. Hubbard, I'll give you a one minute to wrap it up.
[1:38:50] Thank you.
[1:38:53] I have communicated with the board on this very subject, and we are prepared to offer a draft document
[1:38:59] for you by the city attorney to accomplish what's just been discussed.
[1:39:03] Thank you, appreciate that.
[1:39:06] You just, you just offer, do you want this to be a, okay, with no further discussion on this item, I will ask if my colleague has any comments?
[1:39:18] Not in the least, I'm certainly ready to move this to a public.
[1:39:21] Public hearing, okay.
[1:39:23] All right.
[1:39:25] Any other comments?
[1:39:26] Closings?
[1:39:28] Not thank you all for showing up.
[1:39:29] Thank you for staff.
[1:39:32] I know this has been, you know, people are looking at this and thinking, oh, that was.
[1:39:36] quick and easy. It wasn't. And thank you. Yeah, thanks everybody. It's been several years
[1:39:43] of back and forth and analysis and comparison and so Kudos to everybody who put their
[1:39:48] brains together and thank you all for showing up for your community and we appreciate
[1:39:52] you. With that, we are adjourned. Thank you.