adjourned.
Don
t fool yourself. I was
pointing to you. All right,
good evening. I
d like to call
the MARCH 13, 2025 meeting of
the Greenville City Council to
order. I
m Mayor pj Connolly.
I
ll be presiding over
tonight
s meeting. Uh, first, I
will call it myself for the
invocation, followed by the
Pledge of Allegiance. If you
join me for a moment of silence.
Thank you. Please stand for the
Pledge of allegiance. I pledge
allegiance to the flag of the
United States of America and to
the Republic for which it
stands one nation with the
liberty and justice for all.
MADAM Clerk, will you please
call the roll? Yes, sir. Mayor
Connelly. Here, Mayor Prote
Daniels. Council member Foreman
here. Council member Blackburn.
Councilor Scali here.
COUNCILMAN Robinson. Heis here.
Mayor Connelly, you have a, a
quorum. Thank you very much.
Now we move on to the approval
of tonight
s agenda. MR. Man,
there any recommended changes?
I have no changes, ma
am. All
right. Second, all right, most
have been made by Councillor
Mayor Willis, seconded by
Councilor member Scully. All
those in favor say aye. I
m
supposed to say nay. Motion
passes 60. Thank you very much.
We
ll move on to special
recognitions. I
d like to ask
Phyllis House to come forward.
Mm Tonight we are here to honor
Phyllis in her retirement from
the city of Greenville. And I
would like to uh to give you a
little bit of background about
Phyllis and her years here with
the city. Prior to joining the
city of Greenville, Phyllis
dedicated 15 years of her life
as a social worker for Pitt
County government before
deciding to take a step back to
focus on her family. She
reentered the workforce in
NOVEMBER of 2004, taking on a
part-time role with the city at
the Greenville Aquatics and
Fitness Center, where she
helped with processing
memberships and providing great
customer service. In 2010, she
was promoted to designated part
time as a member coordinator at
the Aquatics and Fitness Center,
and in JUNE of 2021, she earned
a very deserving promotion to
full-time staff support
specialist 3, where she still
handled all memberships and
increased membership engagement.
Phillips
beloved by the
members and all of her
co-workers at the aquatics and
Fitness Center, but she is best
known for her cooking, and I
m
sure it
s awesome. She is the
The two-time back to back
champion of the city
s 2023 and
2024, United Way Chili Cookoff,
and the 2024 United Way dessert
competition. And I
m formally
invite Phyllis back next year,
uh, to defend her titles. And
for the longest period of time,
we thought it was rigged by a
fire rescue, so I know it
s
gotta be good. Phyllis has
truly made a positive impact on
many Greenville residents and
visitors. We will all MISS Her
professionalism, organization,
and of course her cooking.
Phyllis, we congratulate you on
a great career, and we thank
you for everything that you
have done to make the lives of
all those at the Aquatic Center
and all over the city of
Greenville better. It
s because
of you that we, that when you
represent everything great
about this community. Thank you,
Phyllis. Now I
d like to ask
Frank Coghlin to come forward.
Uh Right. We are also here
tonight to congratulate Frank
on his retirement with the city
of Greenville. And I do want to
give a little bit of background
about Frank as well. Frank
dedicated 20 years of service
to the citizens of Greenville,
retiring as an ems specialist
with Greenville Fire Rescue.
Throughout his career, Frank
was renowned for his skills as
a paramedic. His ability to
teach. And it
s not for
mentoring new employees. His
extensive knowledge and
expertise save countless of
lives. And is approachable,
caring personality left a
lasting impression on everyone
who worked with him. When Frank
showed up at an emergency, his
supervisors, peers, and
subordinates always felt better
having him there. Frank was a
beloved figure around the
station, always embodying the
role of the senior man. Who
insured everything ran smoothly.
Beyond his professional
accomplishments, Frank was also
known for his culinary talents,
especially his famous Chicago
style deep dish pizza, which
became a favorite among his
colleagues. Frank
s retirement
marks the end of an era, but
his legacy will continue to
inspire and impact the lives of
those who are fortunate enough
to work alongside him. I
ve
known Frank for a long time.
And I can tell you, you will
not find a better guy than this
right here. And a a better
steward of everything great
about the city of Greenville
and the life that you have
impacted in the life that you
have saved. We will never be
able to thank you enough for
all you
ve done to for the
service of this city. So thank
you from on the bottom of my
heart, thank you for everything
you
ve done. I would now like
to invite Haley, Stacy. Kevin
and Lindsey Yentz, uh, to join
me on stage. Along with Chief
Deb. I like to give you a
little bit of background. About
something that happened on
FEBRUARY 10th of this year. On
FEBRUARY 10, 2025 at 4:59 P.M.
Greenville Fire Rescue received
a call. For a female in cardiac
arrest with cpr in progress at
the Murphy Center on the ecu
campus. Upon arrival, ems found
ecu athletic staff performing
bystander cpr and using an aed.
The life saving actions of the
ecu athletic staff include a
high quality cpr and multiple
defibrillations with the aed.
With their assistance,
Greenville Fire Rescue staff
continued high quality cpr with
advanced life support measures
until return of spontaneous
circulation was achieved. MS.
Yentz It
s a testament to the
importance of early recognition
of sudden cardiac arrest,
bystander cpr and aed use. In
early activation of the 911
system. And That
s a lot of
technical words to say that we
have a living miracle. Uh, on
stage here tonight. And I
ve,
I
ve said this over and over
over the last couple of weeks.
That on that day, GOD laid his
hands on you. And also he had
the right people there at the
right time. Our fire rescue
staff and the staff of ecu to
also lay their hands on you.
And it is a remarkable about
how many different ways this
could have gone, but I know
it
s all said and done, that
you had the best staff in the
whole and Wire world
surrounding you at that point
in time, and thank GOD above
that he had the desire to see
you live another day and to
fulfill a very healthy life. So
at this point in time, I would
like to call forward all of
those that were instrumental in
performing the life saving
measures for Haley. And I
d
like you to please come forward
as call out your name if you
re
here. If athletic staff
involved were McKenzie Martin.
Rachel Wilkerson. Taylor
Lefever. And Nate Clark. From
the Greenville Fire Rescue team.
We had Jay Knapp. Lieutenant
Jim Lewis. Ashton Stewart Zach
Price Elizabeth Jackson. Marcus
Brown. Battalion Chief Bryant
Bedard. Battalion Chief David
Brown. And Captain Brandon
Lockler. Again, you will not
find a better group of
individuals. Who every single
day dedicate their lives. To uh
to serving this community. I
say they
re the ones that are
behind the scenes, you never
even know they
re there, but I
can guarantee this community
that they impact every single
aspect of your life. And I
ll
say a prayer for their lives
and every all of other students,
every single night, because I
know they
re out there doing
everything they can to protect
our community. And Haley, I
just say thank GOD that he laid
his hands on you that day, and
I am so proud of the and just
thankful for the life that
you
re gonna have ahead of you.
So thank you. I Oh Oh pushing
on. I. Yeah Yeah Yes. Ok. A
quarter of them. Put up in my
car. Two hours. An eye on that.
Yeah I know. Wild. Um-hum. I
said, All right, we will now
open the public comment period.
The public comment period is a
period reserved for comments by
the public, items that were or
scheduled to be a subject of a
public hearing conducted at the
same meeting or another meeting
or the same week shall not be
discussed. A total of 30
minutes is allocated with each
individual uh individual being
allowed no more than 3 minutes.
Individuals who registered with
the city clerk to speak will
speak in the order registered
until the allotted 30 minutes
expires. If time remains after
all persons who have registered
to have spoken, individuals who
did not register will have an
opportunity to speak until the
allotted 30 minutes expires.
MADAM Clerk, First speaker? Yes,
sir. Our first speaker is MS.
Patsy Duke. MISS Duke, you have
3 minutes to address the mayor
and council. Yeah How do you
wanna. That podium right there,
ma
am. Hello, my name is Patsy
Duke, and I
m PRESIDENT Of
Relief. Relief is a tree group
here in Greenville that you
help work with because our
group raises money for trees
and the city of Greenville
s
public works department plants
them. So we work hard together
to make a beautiful green. I
m
here tonight though to ask for
your help on an issue, uh, of
trees, more, having more trees
in our city. The residents of
Greenville would like to see
more trees planted in
Greenville. And we want to save
trees from being cut down. And
this opinion is well documented.
In the horizon
s 2026 plan. And
in the results of the udo open
houses that were held by
Inspire, the city
s udo
consultant. Right now,
Greenville
s canopy tree
coverage is only 34%. Other
cities in North Carolina have
more people, more buildings,
more concrete, more cars. And
yet they enjoy a better tree
canopy than we do. Cities like
Charlotte, Raleigh, and Durham
enjoy a tree canopy of 47, 48,
and 52%. Even Wilmington is in
better shape than Greenville.
Prior to Hurricane Florence.
Wilmington had 48% tree canopy
coverage. And after the
hurricane, it was estimated to
be at 41%. But Greenville has
34%. How do these cities do it?
These cities have people, more
people, more concrete, and more
cars. And somehow they managed
to have more trees. Well, it
s
not by accident. They work for
They employ urban foresters and
arborists to be involved in the
planning stages of development.
They have ordinances that
prevent trees from being cut
down. They have ordinances that
require tree planting.
Sometimes even in new
residential developments that
are devoid of trees. They
inspect to see if the trees of
commercial properties are still
there. Or if they need to be
replanted. They treat their
trees as the assets to the
community that they are. And
many of Greenville
s residents
would like to see our city work
for a greater tree canopy. We
need your help. Trees are a
valuable resource. And we need
to find ways to save the ones
we have. To plant them where we
don
t already have them. And as
a member of relief and as a
member of our community. I come
before you just say. That we
would like to work with the
city of Greenville to help our
city accomplish this goal of a
greener ring. Thank you. Thank
you. Thank you, MS. She
s good.
That was around. She
s clerk,
our next speaker. Yes, sir.
Next speaker, I
m sorry, it
s
only marked as eca. Speak about
concerns. We can come back to
that speaker. Ok. Next speaker
is MISS Rebecca Powers. MS.
Powers, you have 3 minutes to
address the mayor and council.
Good evening council and Mayor.
First, thank you for your
service. You
re extraordinary
people. And you appreciate it.
I
m here right now to talk to
you and follow up with what
MISS Duke said. I
m Wanting to.
On behalf of many others, ask
you all. To ask city staff.
Work on a tree ordinance. That
would preserve the trees that
we currently have. Work on
increasing the canopy trees,
which are the big trees that
provide the shade and all the
glorious look of a city. And
Very importantly, hire a
full-time arborist. A full-time
urban forester. Because this
isn
t something that just the
volunteers can do, we sure try
every, every year we plant. 100
some trees. But it
s bigger
than us. And we need your help
and that urban forester would
be the person to do it, to have
that expertise. Thank you.
Thank you, MS. Powers. Thank
you, MADAM Clark, our next
Speaker. Yes, sir. Next speaker
is Doctor Newman. Doctor Newman,
you have 3 minutes to address
the mayor and council. Doctor
Newman, I
d just like to know
you had also noted up here to
speak about the flag amendment,
and that would be right during
public hearing. Hello, good
evening. Good evening. First, I
want to start by thanking MR.
Octagon, our director of Parks
and Rec, I think he
s here. He
was here, yes, uh, I contacted
him recently about 2 issues.
One was a massive illegal
dumping at what is the site of
future East Side Park. And, uh,
he followed up on that, called
me, gave me an update, and told
me how that situation would be
remedied. I also called him
after this very bizarre winter
storm we had, and there was a
section of the Greenway, which
is on the north side of First
Street Apartments, completely
shaded, and I think it was 2
days, maybe 3 days after the
storm, it was still covered
with a sheet of ice. So I
called him, he said, yes, our
crew hasn
t been able to get
out because of the ice, but
we
re gonna get out there
tomorrow, so it was just great,
you know, he was so responsive
and so polite, and I really
appreciated that. So I do want
to, uh, echo some, some
comments that have been made
here previously tonight, and
you all are very aware of this.
People have come and spoken
repeatedly about this. In the
udo process, the community made
very clear how they feel about
trees. A big piece of that is
two things that I have
mentioned previously. And first
I want to say I think every
time I have come and spoken
with you, I
ve said I was so
excited when this council came
on board because you represent
two important things.
Possibility. An opportunity.
Possibility to do things
differently. We have 34% tree
canopy because things have not
been done in a thoughtful way
in the past. Previous city
councils, previous mayors,
previous contractors and
developers did not honor. What
the community is now telling
you is important. So we need a
change of mindset. With
contractors and developers, we
see what their methods have
done that cannot continue.
That
s the opportunity to say
no, we have a chance to do
things differently, and you can.
One of the things I
d like to
suggest that I think would be
really helpful in addressing
solutions. I work with experts
at ecu, experts in geology,
hydrology, botany, watershed,
uh, management, how to do that
in an integrated way, and this
is not to diminish the
expertise of our stormwater
engineers or planning
department, just saying we have
incredible experts at ecu. I
would like for those people to
be invited to workshops so that
you could listen to the things
that they have to say. These
are people renowned in their
field, their, their consultants
that are are employed by all
sorts of people to address
critical environmental issues.
And I didn
t realize all these
things until I started working
with them. And then I realized,
well, how would the average
person know about these things?
So I, I think it
s really
important that you have this
background information because
of how much it impacts the way
you think about the decisions
you
re going to make. Uh, so
I
d like to follow up on this
workshop idea. Thank you. I
appreciate your service. Doctor
Newman. Thanks, Doctor Newman.
MADAM Clerk, our next speaker.
Yes, sir. Next speaker is Ms
Anne Maxwell. MISS Maxwell, you
have 3 minutes to dress the
mayor and council. Hello
everyone. I
m going to talk
about trees outside because as
I
ve listened tonight, um, at
all the positive things that
have happened in Greenville. I
want The tree issue to also be
positive, and it is not now.
Because when there was a tree
assessment done and our tree
canopy was 34%. And all over
the state, it was much higher.
And even talking to a developer,
he said it
s harder for us to
keep the trees because of what
we have to do the sites in
eastern North Carolina, but
then I look at Wilmington,
certainly eastern North
Carolina and they have a much
higher tree canopy than us, so
I know we can do something. And
in the assessment, it has a
wealth of information that can
be used by the city to set a
community-wide tree canopy gold.
And one of the things that um
has been has really not helped
us is to have only a part-time
arborist. Because this we need
to have a full-time urban
forester in this city because
currently our arbors works in
public works, and he helps with
the public trees and that kind
of thing, but there is nobody
working with our planning
department. Where most of the
trees are cut. Um, and it
s sad
to me because when now when a
developer presents a site plan
to the plant staff, and it
s
approved, the developer can
clear cut the property. And so
all of our wonderful trees are
leaving us. Um, and I
ve worked
I worked on a committee for
almost a year, that put a lot
of time in this, and I wish
that you all would have. Um And
your pike with relief and a
friend of hers who
s an urban
forester, meet with you all at
your next workshop session and
go over what we put in our plan
because we read the plans for
cities all over North Carolina,
and it was just really sad to
see that Greenville didn
t. We
didn
t have a plan. And when,
and I saw the book from um
Wilmington, where they, they
have a, the Wilmington Urban
Forestry plan and it
s a
beautiful book where they spell
out everything what needs to be
planted, where, why. Another
sad piece is that We have 30%,
34% tree canopy and 30%
impervious surface. So there
s
a lot that we have a plan that
would be helpful. So thank you
very much. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you, MISS Maxwell. Our
next speaker. You don
t have
any additional registered
speakers. Anyone else I
d like
to speak during the public
comment period, please come
forward, state your name for
the record. You have 3 minutes.
Yeah Do we want to go back and
try this, or eca. MR. And MRS.
Eca, you have 3 minutes to
dress the mayor and council.
See none we
ll close the public
comment period. We
ll move on
to appointments, MADAM Clerk,
when you are ready. Um, first
board is the Affordable housing
loan Committee, COUNCILMAN
Foreman. Uh, that is, um,
Probably most, one of our most
efficient boards, uh, but I
m
going to wait until next month
so that I can contact them to
make sure they want to be real.
Ok. Yes, ma
am. Next we have
the board of adjustment Council
member Blackburn. I
d like to
appoint Jeremy Jordan. Do we
have a second? A second.
Motions been made by Councilor
Blackburn, say goodbye. Council
member Willis, all those in
favor say aye as opposed to say
nay. Motion passes 6 to 0.
Congratulations, MR. Jordan. Ok.
Next we have the historic
preservation Commission,
Council member Blackburn. Yes,
um, I
d like to appoint a she,
a shish Kachandani. He
s
actually a doctor Kajaani, uh,
Susan Daughtry and Catherine
Marriott. Ok. All right,
motion
s been made by council
member Blackburn, seconded by
Mayor Protem Daniels. All those
in favor say aye, as opposed
say nay. Motion passes. Doctor.
Hanan Chande done. That was
different than the first time
you said and I apologize for,
for not doing a good job, but I,
but I know him as a she, so I
just, I. What were the other
two? Uh, Susan Daughtry and
Catherine Marriott.
Congratulations to all the new
appointed commissioners. Ok.
Next we have the human
relations Council. Council
member Willis. Yes, um, I have,
and a couple of them mayor
wanted to be here tonight. So
if you
re in the audience, if
you could just wave at me, um,
Donald Rivers. Yeah, here you
go. Hi, MR. Rivers, um, Ashley
Oaks. And uh summer bad one,
and that
s s a m a r. Summer.
All right, motion has been made
by Council Mayor Willis,
seconded by Mayor Pro Tem
Daniels. All those in favor say
hi, as opposed to say nay.
Motion passes 60.
Congratulations to our new. Hrc
hrc members. Welcome back. Next
we have the multimodal
transportation commission
council member Scully. Thank
you. I
d like to reappoint, uh,
James Bird. Kelly Gonzalez,
Arcena Dixon, Catherine Dale,
and Joey x Austin. That leaves
one position that I
d like to
appoint next month. So motion
s
been made by council member
Scully seconded by Council
member Willis. All those in
favor say aye, as opposed to
say nay motion passes 6 to 0.
Congratulations, MR. Bird, MISS
Gonzalez. Dixie MISS Dixon,
MISS Dale, and MR. Austin.
There we go. Next we have the
police community relations
Committee. Again, this is a
direct appointment, does not
need a second or a vote. Um,
council member Blackburn. I
d
like to appoint, uh, Greg
Rubble. All right,
congratulations MR. Rubble. Ok,
and finally we have the youth
council, council member Willis.
Yes, so if you
re here, if you
wave at me, MISS Maya Swaggerty.
Um, MS. Kinzie Letchworth. And
MR. Daniel Mills. MR. Mills,
can you stand up? You look so
nice. Thank you for being here
and congrats. Oh, I
m sorry,
not yet. All right, motions
were made by Councillor Will,
seconded by Mayor Pro Tem
Daniels, all those in favor say
aye I suppose say nay.
Congratulations.
Congratulations, MISS
Letchworth, and MR. Mills,
right? All right,
congratulations. And that
concludes our appointments. All
right. Thank you very much.
We
ll now move on to the
consent agenda. MR. Manager.
Thank you, Mayor. Item number 5,
amendment to previously entered
lease with boys and Girls Clubs
of the coastal plain. A North
Carolina nonprofit corporation
for property situated within
the city of Greenville County,
North Carolina, known as
Lucille and w w w Gorham
Intergenerational Center
located at 1100 Ward Street,
1101 Ward Street. I number 6,
resolution of intent to close a
portion of Grand Avenue. I have
number 7, resolution accepting
dedication of rights of way and
easements for Katie Farms phase
one. Item number 8, resolution
and deed of release for
abandonment of a 10 ft wide
sewer easement across tax
parcel number 48303. Number 9,
resolution for the issuance of
a of new debt for Greenville
Utilities Commission combined
Enterprise System revenue bonds
Series 2025. And item number 10,
various tax refunds greater
than $100. All right. Motion to
approve. No, no, no, no. I had
a question about that, that no.
I had a question about that,
that 10. What
s today
s date? 5
through 10 5 through 10. All
right. Most have been made by
Blackburn, seconded by
Councilor Mayor Robinson, all
those in favor say aye, I
suppose, say nay. Motion passes
6th year I need to take a quick
break MAY MAY all right, we
ll
move on to new business, which
is the public hearings. This is
the policy of the public
hearings adopted by the city
council, the petitioner, or
representative of the
petitioner and a leader of
those in opposition will each
have 10 minutes. Persons
following them will have up to
3 minutes each with a total for
each side and no more than 30
minutes. Additionally, I want
to remind those in attendance
to extend the courtesy to
persons speaking during the
public hearings. And to the
city council during discussion
comments made by members of the
public are to occur only during
the public hearing in the loud
as allowed by the mayor in
accordance with the adopt the
policy of the city council.
There should be no
interruptions of speakers or
council members. Including his
expressions of support or
disagreements, verbally or by
applause, as this is
distracting and makes
discussion difficult. We ask
for your cooperation. Thank you.
MR. Manager, our first public
hearing. Thank you, Mayor. Item
number 11, ordinance to annex
MAY farm lot one property
involving 4.697 acres located
at the northwestern corner of
the intersection of East 10th
Street and evolve way. I
ll now
call forward for city planner
Chris Kelly for the
presentation. Good evening,
Mayor and COUNCILMAN. Good
evening. This property is
located in the eastern part of
the city, more specifically,
this property is located at the
northwestern corner of the
intersection of East 10th
Street and evolved Way north of
the property is Lowe
s and you
have Oak Down Way, which is a
signalized light. This property
is located in the Hardy Creek
watershed, and if stormwater
rules apply, will require 10
year detention. The property is
also located in the primary
service area on the tier growth
map, and will be located in, uh,
city council voting district
number 4. This property is
anticipated to yield 30,000
square feet of commercial use,
with an estimated tax value of
$4 million and I
ll be happy to
answer any questions. All right,
any questions for MR. Kelly.
What
s the current zoning on
the property? Cg General
Commercial. Thank you. Any
other questions? Does it meet
our horizons plan? Yes, sir. Ok.
I believe so. A. Do you know
the intended use for the
property? Um, as of right now,
I believe it
s just a variation
of commercial ucg allow. Well,
I did, I did do some a deep
dive on this, and I don
t want
to take your time away, but
it
s supposed to be used for a
tropical smoothie, uh,
commercial center. It will
feature 4 separate, if I
ve got
this correct, um, 4 separate,
uh, commercial entities, one of
them being a tropical smoothie.
But keep in mind moting based
off of just the zoe. Now this
is a side plan. And this is an
annexation, not a rezoning.
There is a. Ok, all right.
Tight plans under review. Right.
Any other questions? If we
annex today with the I playing
come back to us or would that,
yeah. Can they develop this
property while remaining in the
county? Mhm So That
s a very
difficult question. Can they
develop the property in the
same way while remaining
outside of the city limits.
What are they applying for
annexation? The property is
currently zoned commercial.
They
re asking to annex so they
can tie on to sewer. Um, and I
do, I believe there
s a site
plan under review, but I do not
know what that is. However,
counsel never sees site plans.
So you, you
re not going to see
it. At a council meeting. I
have a hard time, um, proven
something that I don
t know the
traffic study for us are really
dangerous stretch of road there
if this will help you, I
ll go
ahead and and say. So it
s
already been preliminary
platted. So this is one lot out
of several different pieces.
I
m gonna dial back just to
Make sure I get to an aerial.
I
m going opposite. I apologize.
I
m sorry. Here we go. So, This,
uh, the property you see right
now is in red. The balance of
the property here is developing
into multifamily. This is part
of a larger subdivision.
Subdivision has already been
approved. That was approved
with dot and city engineering
as far as the streets and, um,
Any driveways. This property
with these apartments, you will
be able, whether it
s this lot
or the apartments themselves,
you
ll be able to go down to
Oak Down Way. Come up, this is
a signalized intersection, so
you
ll be able to make a left
hand turn at the stoplight. The
driveway here evolve way,
that
s a right in and a right
out. You will not be able to
make a left hand turn. And so
as part of dot
s review and
approval. And city engineering.
That, those parts have already.
Basically been taken care of as
far as any kind of uh traffic
impacts, and that is why it
s a
ride in and ride out and not a
left-hand turn. So there
ll be
like lane dividers put in the
middle delineators or perhaps
the medians, um, that would
keep someone coming out and
making a left hand turn. Can do
it. Ok. So follow up questions
here. I
ve not heard about
medians. Are, are there plans
for meetings? I, I can
t tell
you right off the top. All I
can say is it
s a ride in and a
ride out. Because that
s one of
the issues and, and I don
t
want to verge into comments
just yet, but that
s, that
s
one of the, the, the issues
with this request to annex is
that there
s nothing there.
It
s, it
s wide open. There
s
no, there
s no stoplight,
there
s no lane dividers.
There
s nothing but a blind
curve and, and, and, and
whatever, um, so. Ok, whatever,
that
s subjective, but there,
there
s, there
s not that and
to my knowledge, because we
ve
worked an awful lot already
with dot and we
ve talked with
dot and we
ve sent requests to
dot to my knowledge, I, I know
of no plans to. Remediate in
any way this area. Um So if,
you know, if it
s right in and
right out, I, I. I don
t know
how that
s going to be enforced.
You
re probably going to have a
median in the driveway. That
s
going to force you to make a
right-hand turn. But not, we
don
t know medians on 10th
Street. I mean, in the driveway
itself, um, a follow-up
question to that. Do you know
when, um, this, and I don
t
want to put you on the spot,
but do you know when this was
zoned commercial. This has been
zone commercial one. Yeah, 2008.
I was going to say 10 years, so
that would be pretty good. So
is it fair to say that since
2008, that
s 10, my math isn
t
the best, but, um, 1615 years?
Plus The conditions have
changed in this area. Is that a
fair statement? Uh, I don
t
want to put you on the spot,
but I mean with more
development around they still
do a percentage every year to
build in for build out. And
they still take into
consideration things as they
re
being developed, kind of like
in a checkbook. So they
re
keeping up with the traffic. Ok,
thank you. Again, you, you feel
confident that they
ll be
delineators, but on the 10th
Street I can
t say that. I wish
i could, but I don
t know. I
m
gonna ask um. Our director of
Engineering Lisa Kirby, to come
up and speak to them. I MAY
have to defer or traffic
engineer who
s with me tonight,
but, um, no, to our knowledge,
there are no medians going in
on 10th Street. Um, so you are
correct in that, um, we have
not been informed by dot that
there are medians going in on
10th Street. However, at the
driveway, um, to Shante
s point,
there will be, we call it a
pork chop, but it prevents left
turns. It forces you to go
right, um, and only allows
right in, would be a dual pork
chop, so it kind of looks like
a triangle in the driveway. Are
they, uh, enforced? And
enforceable. Um, they are
enforceable, yes. Thank you.
Was there another question? So
there
s a light here on I would
just feel a lot better if there
were delineators in the street,
and the pork chop. Cause it
s
Those exist throughout the city
and I see people taking lefts
into them all the time and they
don
t. I don
t think they
prevent It MAY even make it
dangerous in some, some points
when somebody
s trying to do
something they
re not supposed
to, um. And, and, and I would
just say. Even delineators
aren
t 100% sure fail safe. I
mean, we, we actually did a
site visit and with some
delineators and we saw a car
just do a u-turn right there in
the middle. So I mean whether
it
s a pork chop or delineator,
you know, this is the best, um,
method that we have to be able
to control that left turn,
right turn. And I think the
issue I
m really must sticking
with me is there
s a giant
apartment complex that
s gonna
wrap around this property. And
we don
t know how that
s going
to impact traffic, and then if
you add a a multi-unit
commercial property there. Um,
with a business like Tropical
community, that
s gonna be
really busy. I, I just really
worry about the 10th Street
being able to handle that load
in that section. It is a blind
curve and there
s not much
infrastructure there at all to
prevent accidents from
happening, so, um, I worry
about that, um, up and down
10th Street, but that section
in particular between Lowe
s
and Walmart, there
s the curve
there, it
s just And there
s a
doctor
s office going across
the street. There
s just a ton
of stuff going in there all at
the same time and and. I wish
we could slow roll this a
little bit to to. See how
that
s gonna impact the, the uh,
traffic on the street, um. I
Any other questions for our
staff? If they meet the
requirements for the next
session, we can
t turn down,
can we, can we? Yeah, you can,
you can, you can do that. Ok.
All right, any other questions?
All right. Public hearings now
open. Those be on behalf of the
applicant Ma forward. Please
state your name for the record.
The first person has 10 minutes.
All others have 3 minutes. Are
you speaking in favor? Just
just a guess. All right, see
none. Those in opposition to
the applicant MAY come forward.
Please state your name for the
record. First person has 10
minutes, all others have 3
minutes. You get a whole 10
minutes. Oh, I don
t need that
long. Thanks for it. I, unless
I really lose my train of
thought here, but Rebecca
Powers, am I supposed to give
my address because this is my
neighborhood and so I live and
breathe this area and I use Oak
Down, who was mentioning that
Oak Down all the time and the
light because I can
t get out
of my neighborhood otherwise.
And I think we
re gonna have
50,000 people move into those
apartments. 50. I don
t know
how many, but a whole lot if
you haven
t seen them, they
re
just huge. And how those folks
are gonna get in and out of
their homes. I
m worried too,
Matt. I just, I don
t, I can
t
imagine it happening. But it
s
gonna happen, so back to what
was said about when it was
zoned commercial and the
horizons plan, that was a long
time ago. And I read the packet
in the agenda and tried to
understand what was going to
happen tonight. And I
m so glad
you asked about voting it yes
or no. I couldn
t understand
where we were in this process.
And when the young man sitting
beside MISS Gooby, I didn
t
catch your name. I think he
said hm MR. Kelly. I think it
was him who said, What do you
what do you call the plat
zoning won
t come back to you.
So if you say yes tonight, it
s
a done deal. Oh, that
s not
right. Um, I
m also the
PRESIDENT Of my neighborhood
association, and we don
t know
anything about this, and I
don
t know that anybody in the
other neighborhoods do because
it hasn
t come up. And then
I
ve also been thinking since i
read in the agenda and on the
packet. I can
t think of one
other tropical smoothie.
Anywhere in our city that
s
just surrounded by all this
housing. Right up around it.
I
m thinking of that one and
maybe the mayor can think of
one, but I
m thinking of the
one out on Arlington and
Dickinson. It
s sitting there.
Yeah, there
s housing, but it
s
way over there and they have
their own light. Oh, and they
went out of business or
something. Oh They
re by a
hotel now because it
s not good
to be interested because So I
have a lot of issues right
there and I hope what we can do
tonight is Got 7 more minutes,
but, uh. I should say I
ve got
the floor right? So, um, No, I
do want to know, and I don
t
think that we were told by the
planners if it
s currently etj.
Because it
s sitting right
there in other parts of the. Of
the city and I think you said
they want to. No, no, Just
sitting here I
m sorry. I can
help. Oh Oh Well, about the
sewer, um, tying into our water
and sewer. So somehow that has
to do with being The next, um,
I just can
t, I understand if
there
s, you know, we already
have a dentist there, that big
dentist, you know, that
beautiful dentist, eastern
dentistry, and you know, that
fits in. There
s not a lot of
terrible traffic, but someplace
else that
s more commercial,
that
s not an office kind of
place where people are just
there a limited time. Um Please
say no to the annex. Thank you.
Unless I can respond to
something you asked me. Ok, I
would think it
s in the etj
though. Did, did you ask if
it
s in the atj? Were you going
to respond to that? If you have
zone and you
re in the city
limits for the etj. That is
your only option. So this is in
the etj. Ok, because they are,
ok, so can
t they use the water,
and that
s really what they
want, but. I guess can
t we not
without any exception. And we
don
t have any ruling over etj
because that
s a county
commissioners or we do that too?
Um-hum. Just sitting. Ok. What
they want is to tie into our
sewer system, um, and that, and
the only way they can do that
is to be annexed. Is to be
annexed. Hm. And to be annexed
with already a plat in place, a
done deal. 5 minutes I give
back to you. I, I concede or I
give back to you my 5 minutes.
Thank you. Thanks, Doctor
Powers. We appreciate that.
Anyone else that
s in
opposition to the applicant MAY
come forward. Please state your
name for the record.
Fortunately, you only have 3
minutes. It
s not a problem. My
name is Mark Parker, and I
m
very familiar with that area.
My boys live over there and
when I was teaching them how to
drive, I used to have to tell
them when traffic is traffic is
always busy in the morning and
the afternoons. I used to tell
them like, if you need to make
a left, actually make a right,
go to Lowe
s and then make a,
make a little Ui in the parking
lot and then go back to your
direction because I mean people
are speeding back and forth and
a lot of time with the traffic.
Surveys you
re not looking at,
you
re not talking to the
people who live in the areas.
Who see it 24/7 morning, noon,
dusk, dawn, weekends, weekdays,
rush hour, and that
s gonna be
a lot with all those apartments,
and we
re talking about
commercial buildings, people go
on the tropical smoothie. It is
a popular place. I use it a lot
myself. I love it, but That
s
gonna be a lot of disturbance,
um, and just disruption to the
people who live in River Hills
and the surrounding communities.
And We already got a report
today in the news that we are
like what? In top in the
country or bad drivers in North
Carolina, Greenwood, North
Carolina. It
s only gonna be a
bunch more accidents. It
s only
gonna be worse. I work in
healthcare. I
ve x-rayed plenty
of people on the back porch.
I
ve seen people from, from
birth. Accidents to the morgue.
So I
ve seen all the whole
spectrum. So I would say no. I
don
t think we should go with
it. Thank you. Thank you.
Anyone else like to speak in
opposition to the aa. MAY come
forward. Please state your name
for the record. You have 3
minutes. Hi, um, my name is
Pedro, um, and I would also say
no, um, like the other two
speakers before me, I
m also
very familiar with that area,
um, my, um, my aunt lives in
Grisland, so when I was going
to ecu I would actually have to
drive up that road every single
day, um, and like the gentleman
before me said, it gets very
busy, um, during the mornings
and, you know, the afternoon,
um, the rush hour traffic and
um I just, I don
t think they
have. A good idea of what
they
re gonna do with the
traffic. Um, and like, um, like,
um, I think it
s uh MR. Scully.
Yes, sir, thank you um, you
know, I think he
s, he
s very
right, you know, he would like
to know better what they
re
gonna do if there
s gonna be a
meeting or whatever. I think
that
s, that
s very important
to know before approving an
annexation, um. Which I also
took a little bit of issue with
um uh the planners. I
m not
sure the proper term for them,
but them saying that you guys
don
t get the plans. You
basically don
t have a sale
until, you know, you basically
just say yes or no, and then
after that it
s just whatever
they wanna do or whatever
they
re gonna do, you know, I,
I think maybe we should know
better what
s gonna happen
before saying, yes, that
s fine,
or no, it
s not fine. And um,
like the, the lady said, um, in
the beginning, there
s a big,
big. Apartment complex. It
actually looks pretty nice. I
was thinking maybe I might move
there, but if they put um a
traffic like I didn
t know
there was gonna be like a
commercial center, maybe I
wouldn
t want to live next to a
commercial center, you know,
maybe I just want to drive into
my apartment complex, not have
to drive by a bunch of
businesses, even though it is
by the lows, but that
s, that
s
not that bad. Lowe
s is pretty
good for, for deals and stuff.
But um, yeah, that
s all, um, I
just, I think maybe more
information is needed for the
traffic, especially because
that turn on the where the
graveyards are, it is very like,
um, like MR. Scully said, it
was, it
s a blind turn and like
the gentleman before me said,
turning left there is not gonna
happen, but when you add a
bunch of people, um, that live
there, they get comfortable and
they
re gonna turn left and
that might cause more accidents
in that area, but that
s all I
have. Thank you. Thank you.
Sweetheart, what was your name
again? Pedro. What
s your last
name? For now. Thank you. Thank
you. All right, anyone else
who
d like to speak in
opposition to the applicant,
please come forward and state
your name for the record. You
have 3 wonderful nuts. Again.
When I look at that, I see a
lot of trees. You
re lucky we
know and if we, if we don
t
protect those trees at 34% is
going to go down. And I don
t
know right now since we don
t
have a, a tree survey in
Greenville. We need to have an
urban forester who can look at
our cities. Canopy and see if
we have heritage trees because
on this property there MAY be
heritage trees and, and I
looked it up to tell you
exactly, and that is a tree
designated as significant due
to its historical, cultural,
ecological, or its age, size,
or unique qualities. And we
have not identified any of that
in Greenville, so we lose our
heritage trees. What are we
going to lose on that property.
What can be done to save them.
Somebody suggested a land trust.
I don
t know if that would work.
I have no idea, but I just know
that if we just let this go the
way of all the other
development, we are going to
lose more trees. And that
really bothers me because that
affects all of us. It affects
our health. And in fact, I was
reading an article today about
how in Kentucky they actually
are planting trees to help with
asthma. So this is very, you
know, I. It
s important Thank
you. Thanks, MS. Maxwell. Thank
you. Anyone else that likes to
speak in opposition to the
applicant, please come forward,
state your name for the record.
You have 3 minutes. Hello,
Yoshi Newman. There are 2 votes
that you
re gonna take tonight.
For which it
s imperative that
you vote no, and this is one of
them. When I moved to
Greenville 11.5 years ago. Uh,
I live right there by Lowe
s in
that neighborhood tucked back
in there. So I was leaving the
neighborhood and headed toward
campus, and it was dark.
Terminal is right there and so
there
s the boat landing access
that way. There was a truck.
With a big boat and a trailer
that came barreling down that
road and totaled. My beautiful
little bmw z3 Roadster. Totaled
it. Fortunately, I got out and
walked away. I actually was
able to put the bumper in my
truck and go back to my house.
That was over 10 years ago. The
complex that
s there, uh, that
is currently under construction,
evolve at the Pines. There are
no pines there. Evolve at the
pines hundreds of units,
hundreds of cars. I will also
remind you that at the
intersection of Port Terminal
and 10th, a couple of years ago
or so. A housing development
was approved there despite
objections from residences in
the area. It
s near a flood
plain, Fort Port Terminal has
been flooded repeatedly. There
was a helicopter evacuation of
people who lived on Port
Terminal Road. Still, Hundreds
of housing units sitting right
there on uh port terminal in
10th, no stoplight. That evolve
at the Pines for which there
s
no pines. No stoplight. So
we
ve got hundreds of cars and
as MR. Walker explained, the
traffic studies, while those
don
t seem to have any impact
on decisions, they do have an
impact on drivers
real lived
experience. My poor total
little car. Now, you know, I
mean, I don
t mean to make
light of that, but it is a
dangerous, dangerous road. It
is not supposed to be another.
Greenville Boulevard, which is
not a boulevard. So the the the
section of East 10th. From, uh,
Greenville, not Boulevard, up
to Brook Valley or, uh, Copper
Creek is solid businesses with
cars coming in multiple
directions, and pedestrians
going back and forth. It
s
awful. This is not what we
should have happening in our
city, so no, no commercial
development in that area. Keep
it safe and we also have two
cemeteries right there. So we
have funeral processions on a
regular basis. You know,
drivers get impatient. They
re
on their way somewhere. People
are going to be zooming around
to get around a funeral
procession. So this is one of
the 2 votes tonight for which
it
s very important that you
vote no. There
s no good reason
in my mind to vote yes. Thank
you. Thank you. Thank you.
Anyone else like to speak in
opposition to the Africa MAY
come forward. Please state your
name for the record. You have 3
minutes. Good evening, Mr.
Mayor, counsel. My name is
Brian Fagundas. So the things
that I
m opposed to echo a lot
of what
s been said. I
m
opposed to unsafe traffic,
opposed to Getting rid of
things and and I
ll call it not
smart development, but I do
want to remind you guys, the
city regulates subdivision. The
city has a requirement for
annexation to provide utility
services from Bro Utilities. I
just want to remind you guys
that. The annexation is the
next step for this site. The
zoning
s been in place, the
uses in that district would be
by right. If uses require a
board of adjustment approval or
specific uses, then they
ll go
for special use. Just wanted to
remind you guys of uh. Thank
you. Alright, anybody else
who
d like to speak? In
opposition to the African
American, please state your
name for the record. You have 3
minutes. See none public
hearing is now closed, open for
a board discussion or a motion.
Council member Blackburn, thank
you so much and thank you to
everyone who came tonight to
speak and so many good points
have been raised. I
m gonna do
my best to summarize them. Um,
we said never again will we
have a Greenville Boulevard.
Well, too late. Years of
indiscriminate commercial
zoning, but also population
growth have resulted in what we
have on 10th Street East. This
request would bring a 4.6 acre.
Commercial center anchored by
the Tropical smoothie. While
I
d love to have a smoothie
shop across the street to
approve this annexation without
safety improvements would be
reckless. The same issues we
faced beforehand on Port
Terminal Road with that
commercial request. Um, are, uh,
the, the same issues that we
faced then are now, uh, uh, we,
we face them, but they
re
exponentially more serious. The
stakes are incredibly high here
and I think that the
description of the car accident
is chilling. That was 11 years
ago. The new apartments will
bring in hundreds of new
residents to this exact
location. The new pediatrics
office at the corner of, uh,
River Hill Drive and 10th
Street is opening up and it
s
going to bring in probably 100s
of trips a day. Every day.
Beyond the Food Lion and, um,
even outside the city limits,
we see more and more growth.
All the way headed down to
Black Jack Simpson and
Chockainity along 33 East.
Growth is good. This is a good
thing. Glad to see the growth.
But until 10th Street has some
improvements, we cannot
continue to be reckless with
our decisions. 10th Street has
been largely unchanged in, I
dare to say 20 years. We got a
stoplight at Cowra Beach and we
got that. Why? Because a young
man died there. Young man died
there. We do not want that
blood on our hands again. 10th
Street was designed as a
thoroughfare. Get you from
Greenville. Points east. It
lacks the infrastructure to
safely carry the load we
re
asking of it today. Dividers,
safety ones, lane demarcation,
and reduced speed down to 35
miles an hour. Most critically,
it lacks traffic signals.
Indeed, the traffic flow out
there, as has been described,
resembles a kind of a wildcard
zone, anything goes. So Taking
all of this into consideration.
We are headed in a bad
direction on 10th Street East
until we get the infrastructure
improvements that we need and
we can halt this bad direction.
We can take some time to do
things the right way and, um, I
also want to, uh, mention the
heritage trees that I believe
are also on this site. There
s
some old pines, they
re
distinctive. They
re cedars,
and they
ve been there a long
time. So with all of these
considerations. I move to deny
this annexation request. Mayor,
I, I would just like to make a
few points to to make sure the
council understands. The, uh,
the site plan that has been
presented does have the pork
chop that is to protect the
traffic. To limit the, the
left-hand turns. The only
reason we know anything about
tropical smoothie. The fact
that there is a slight plane.
There
s a lot of annexations
and rezonings that we don
t
know what
s going to go there.
But that property is owned by
right, people have the right to
move forward with development
on that property. The 10th
Street traffic, uh, uh, I
ve
said over and over again, yes,
10th Street, Memorial Drive. We
have a lot of, of Of
thoroughfares that are very
important to us and that are
that are that are um. That are,
uh, unsafe in many ways, but
ultimately what we
re saying
here is that are we going to
basically just stop all
development until 10th Street
until dot does something. I
mean, if that
s what we
re
saying, we need to make sure
that in dot understands that.
But remember, we
re only can
stop it for those that you
re
not annexed. Or they have not
had, um, the, the proper
rezoning. Everyone else and in
many ways it might
disenfranchise those that are
not annexed or have a, a, a
proper zoning that
s also
authorized or supported by
other Horizons plan. We just
got to take that into
consideration. I
m just putting
out points there. And then also,
I think we also have to
understand if we
re, uh, if
we
re talking about uh looking
at site plans that have already
that That for a property that
s
already, um, would be allowed
by right of use of that
property, then we could just,
we could put a stifle to
development. As well, so I just
wanna make those points. All
right, there
s been a motion
made. Is there a second? I like
she
s been seconded by couples.
Will you repeat the motion for
me? Uh, motion to deny the
request to annex. Um All right,
Council member just you open up
for comments. I like to comment,
absolutely. First off, I, when
we dealt with a similar issue
as much on a smaller basis with
the, uh, Port Comer Road. I
went out and tried to get some
education about the number of
accidents and calls for service
pedestrians, all that kind of
stuff. If you recall, this
council recall, very few and in
fact had actually gone down one
year. So I understand the
opinion about The safety of
this saying. But in reality,
the facts don
t support that.
If you go make the inquiries,
it does not support those
opinions. You can disagree with
me, but it do the diligence of
calling and determining how
many accidents happen, where
they are, pedestrian strikes
calls for emt and service in
that regard, does not support
that. I recognize there
s a lot
of traffic on that roadway just
like there is in Arlington,
pretty much every major
thoroughfare in Greenville has
traffic in the morning and the
afternoon. My office is on
Arlington Boulevard. It
s crazy
in the morning, crazy in the
afternoon. How you deal with
some of that, which we
re not,
which is a a part and parcel of
this is you do traffic
enforcement. And then you
enforce those traffic tickets
cited. And not, and not let
them go on the buy side so
people learn their lesson about
speeding. We have to make
assumptions that people are
going to abide by the law when
they don
t, you take them and
prosecute them. Simple as that.
And so if you
ve got a right in,
right out, you
re supposed to
turn right out, right in. That
means traffic only flowing in
one direction. We have to
assume people are going to
follow the law. They don
t you
enforce the law against them.
And so It doesn
t support those
opinions with the facts. And
then second, the only way we
can grow this city is if we
develop it. And so basically as
city manager said, do we just
put all development on hold? On
this section. I mean, is that
what we
re prepared to do?
Because recognizing this is
something that a lot of our
citizens don
t recognize. About
65 or 70% of our, our, uh,
budget comes from real estate
taxes and then property taxes.
And one of the things we have a
disadvantage is we can
t tax
all the property ecu has, which
is millions and millions of
dollars, as well as a hospital.
So for us to grow, we
ve got to
grow by development. This is
done properly. This is just the
beginning process. They still
got to go through a lot of
hoops to get whatever they
re
going to put there put there.
And so it
s a $4 million piece
of property and then you, it
can only get bigger. And so,
What do we say to a person
s
develop their piece of land.
Well, we
re going to put you on
hold indefinitely until we
decide what dot is going to do.
Every city that develops has
the same problem. Every single
city, nobody can tell me
otherwise or challenge me with
the facts because every city,
go to Raleigh. Go to Wilmington.
They all have the same problem
as you grow. And so, you know,
if we
ve got the right in and
right out and you
ve got the
turnoff of oak down, uh, way, I
mean, I went out there the
other day looking at this piece
of property and drove out
during lunchtime, be very
little traffic, and this is
lunchtime, but I bet if you see
it at 8 o
clock in the morning,
it
s probably a lot of traffic,
5 o
clock in the afternoon, a
lot of traffic like there is in
Arlington, Greenville Boulevard,
uh, 14th Street, Memorial Drive,
Highway 11, you can name every
single one of them. You know, I
just think that at some point,
we don
t, we shouldn
t be
picking and choosing which one.
Developing or saying we
re
gonna stop all development
because this has been a
position of some people in this
council, even for something as
small as like the, the shop
that was going to go on Portar
Road. There
s been no evidence
that this is going to exceed
the traffic volume of the
highway, or that it
s going to
contribute to accents or some
major traffic problem on this,
uh, excuse me, accent problem
on this highway. And again,
look at the facts. So for all
those reasons, I
m, I
m going
to devote, vote against the
motion is currently on the
floor. You hear their comments?
I have, um, a few comments. Uh,
number one, when we look at
supporting facts. Um, not just
the facts of the number of
trips coming in and out of that
business, but the fact that we
have already exceeded exceeded
the amount of traffic that was
planned to go up and down 10th
Street. That is Uh, pretty well
known fact, right, we know that
we have an imbalance of the
amount of traffic that
s going
on that road with the amount of
residential properties um going
there and we know that it is
unsafe like we really know that.
Um, when we talk about growing
our city for development. Yes,
we all want to see growth, but
we want to see responsible
growth. And gas stations, smoke
shops, um, and, uh, restaurants,
I don
t look at as. Growth or
development. Um So, uh, And,
and whatever we do decide, it
should be creating jobs. It
should be creating jobs that
pay livable wages. Um, all of
those things so that we can
utilize what we consider growth
and development to actually
address some of the root issues
that we have in our community,
which is housing and food
insecurity. So, um, if it
s not
paying livable wages, number
one, number 2, Offering a
number of jobs that would
actually uh create some
economic opportunities for some
of our citizens, then I don
t
know that I necessarily
consider it responsible growth
and development, um, and then
lastly, what do we say to
property owners and developers,
I have a couple of things that
I
d like to say to property
owners and developers. Number
one, this city belongs to our
residents. We
re voted in by
our residents. Um I am elected
to represent them. I
m not
elected to represent special
interests or developers. Um, so
that
s number one. Now I do
believe in growth and
development. And I do support
that. But I support that when
number one, you have
communicated with our citizens
and you have considered how
your actions are going to
impact their day to day lived
experiences and number 2. Um,
that you have considered how we
need to protect and preserve
the quality of life of our
community. And part of that is
considering what type of trees
and vegetation is on properties.
I think that we need to set
some standards for what we want
in our city, and we need to set
standards even for a property
owners and developers that this
is how we would like you to
move forward. When you want to
be a business here. Um, So, uh,
I appreciate. All of my
co-counsel. But I will
reiterate what I
m elected to
represent and I do that
unapologetically. Just as a
question. I was wondering if
our traffic engineer could
answer a question real quick
about the traffic count that
there was a statement that was
made that Street exceeds the
limit for the traffic count. I
thought I remembered that being
said before. Yes, sir. So
there
s a statement that was
made about the traffic count in
That we
ve already exceeded the.
I guess the allowable amount of
traffic on 10th Street, is that
I don
t know what the exact
capacity is, but the current
adt is is 20. 2 24,000. And
that
s not at capacity as far
as the roadway section goes.
First place you
re gonna lose
capacity is at the
intersections. Repeat that. I
m
sorry. I just want to hear him
clearly. I, I didn
t, I
m sorry,
I didn
t hear that last part so
I can hear you clearly. Zip sip
the capacity of the roadway
itself, which is basically a
five-lane section is in
excessive with the current adts,
which is about 22, 24,000. So
it
s not exceeding capacity.
The roadway section. We
re
going to first find the loss of,
of Of uh capacity is at the
intersections. Ok. So the
section itself is Support can
support this traffic, plus the
residential development plus
the small commercial pocket. As
far as the section goes. And if
I MAY, 10th Street, however, at
this point was designated or
was designed to be a
thoroughfare and not a
commercial corridor. That
s
true and that wouldn
t, that
would improve the capacity, yes.
Right. Ok. Only because of the
restrictions by the median. And
that
s the only reason. So when
you have it doesn
t, it doesn
t
add a travel lane. Going from
what we have now. To a
thoroughfare. So when you have
a, a, a road, this designated
designed as a thoroughfare that
becomes a commercial corridor.
You
ve got the philosophy of
moving people from point a to
point b as fast as possible,
but all of a sudden you
ve got,
uh, businesses and, uh,
apartment complexes and
dentist
s office and pediatrics
office and uh boat repair shops
and all kinds of things
happening that were not
initially part of that
assessment, but the difference
in capacity comes because of
the median. The median
restricting access, especially
the left turns. That
s, that
s
where the improved capacity
really comes from because it
doesn
t add a lane, it doesn
t
add a through lane. It
s still
gonna be 2 lanes in each
direction, which the center
turn. It would have a center
median. That, that
s, that
s.
That would be the next step.
But we do not have a center
median. There
s just a a middle
crazy lane. It
s yeah, it
s
it
d be an access management
project to to improve the
access management. Yes. Thank
you. One other question for, I
guess our city. Staff, um,
Would we consider this to be
like a mixed use development. I
know these are two separate.
Parcels and probably two
separate owners. Would you
consider this to be a mixed-use
development. What
s in red is
just commercial or office.
Right. So mixed use would
typically mean you you
re
adding in a residential, the
residential is wrapped around
it. So holistically, yes,
because we still have a back
portion. That will eventually
come in as well. Sure, I mean,
that
s, that
s kind of what I
meant. So as far as what is the
city
s. Stance on that, is that
something the city supports?
Because the city is in favor of
this, correct? Right, this is,
this was rezoned. 10 years ago.
Um, what they are proposing to
do is buy right, that means
that that is, um, Reviewed by
staff at City dot guc staff.
That
s why, um, we talked about
city council doesn
t see site
plans. So And then again, this
has already had dot involvement
and approval on it. So it is,
it
s, it
s gone through all of
those hoops of review and
approval. This is the
essentially the last step that
would be, um, That would come
before council, I guess is what
i
m trying to say. So
essentially if this were to be
denied tonight. I go, maybe I
might need some help from a, uh,
an attorney too. With this,
we
re essentially telling the
property owner that they cannot
do anything with their. I will
say this. I believe there is an
avenue for them. She still gets
sore. To still be able to
develop. Any other questions or
comments? Are we legally able
to refuse annexation? Mm Uh,
yes, this is a legislative
decision and um This in the
will of counsel, so. Mhm. It,
oh, go ahead, ma
am. I Just
have a couple of Comments, um,
Just the amount of development
that
s going in, again, I think
we just need to slow down a
little bit. There
s a huge
apartment complex, big doctor
s
office. Uh, gas stations stuff
going down the street, um,
there
s just a lot going on at
the same time, and My hope is
that we find a way to slow this
down a little bit, um. Because
we
re not stopping development.
Development is happening all
over the place, um, especially
on 10th Street. There
s a huge
apartment complex coming online.
There
s a wah wah coming down
the street. Um, there
s brand
new stores all up and down the
street there. We
re not
stopping development. Um, but
this is very different than the,
the parcel we passed a couple
of weeks ago. This is, is right
on 10th Street. Um, it
s right
on a blind curve. And it
s
right in front of a gigantic
apartment complex that
s going
to come online. Um And I I wish
there was a stoplight at River
Hills cause then it would be
sort of sandwiched by two stop
lights that would make a little
bit easier, uh, you
d have some
breaks in the traffic at least.
Um, and I wish that there was
better access to Oakdown. I
don
t believe that anybody
using that. Um, shopping center
is gonna go through the
apartment complex and out to
the light, um. And this is very
present to me, um. The, the
safety of our city, my daughter
was in a a car accident last
week and, um, totaled her car,
um, we was on Greenville
Boulevard, but, um, It
s a
similar sort of issue. So it
s
just very presents to me, uh,
sitting here in this chair
today cause I know how
dangerous it is, and I don
t
want to put anybody else
s
child at risk, um, driving up
and down that road. So I, and I
just don
t have enough
information today to make Um,
an educated decision about this.
i really Um, with all respect
to you, council member in
Blackburn. I, I would like to
see us table this uh so that we
have the opportunity to learn
more about it. That possibility,
Councilors, what, what
information would you like to,
you don
t have I would like to
learn more about the setup of
the of the business and what
the site plan looks like if
it
s legal for me to have that
information, um, and I would
like to know more about the
setup of the streetscape in the
apartment complex. What is the
access like to Oaktown Way from
that. I would like to know if
we
re following. Um The ideas
set up. That we have setbacks
created and Backstreets to
allow for traffic to go from
one place to the other without
having to go on to the main
thoroughfare. Um, they just
have a lot of questions, um, I
also want to know more about
the trees that are there. I was
out there today at 11:30 A.M.
The traffic was very busy, um,
I had a hard time getting in
and out, um, to evolve way, um,
and when I got onto the
property, it
s a beautiful
piece of property. It
s
sandwiched in between that
giant apartment complex, but
it
s gorgeous. There
s really
nice grove of cedar trees that
are very old, um, that we need
to learn about, um, and I I
would hate that our city loses
one more, uh, beautiful place.
And I don
t know that it
s
possible to save it, but could
we work with the developer in
order to try to, to save some
of that growth, some of those
trees, um, are there ways For
us to, to work with them, uh,
to develop in a more
sustainable way, um, so I just
have a lot of questions and,
and, and, and again, I would
remind council that, um, What
would, what would the situation
would be if we did not have a
site plan. Sitting in front of
us right now, which is 90 99%
of the annex sessions that we
have, we don
t have not gotten
to that point yet. So we
re, I
think we
re, we
re
treating this one different
because just because it has a
sighting. Well, no, no, I mean,
again I go back to, sir, with
all due respect, I believe it
is different because it is a, a
very busy road. It
s on a blind
curve and it
s in front of a
brand new massive apartment
complex. I, I think it does
demand special attention
because of the, the, the danger
it. You know, poses towards my
constituents in District 4. How
would that decision be
different if there wasn
t a
site plan. But for me, it
wouldn
t be different, um, and
i know that there
s the thought
process of stifling development,
um, I, I, I don
t see it as
much as stifling development. I
think that for years our
council has been weighted
towards development. Often at
the expense of the day to day
lived experience of of of
citizens and so for me it goes
back to us needing to set some
standards for our community, um,
that are balanced. With the
growth and development that we
all desire, um, with the day to
day lived experience and
quality of life of our citizens.
Um, so for me it wouldn
t be
that much different. And I
d
like to address something that
perennially comes up. People
being against development.
That
s a broad statement that
is absolutely untrue. As
council member Foreman just
said, we are, we all want to
see our city grow. We want to
see it grow in responsible ways,
and when you don
t have
infrastructure in place and
when it
s. When it
s already a
demonstratedly dangerous area.
You
re adding more stuff to it
and as council member Scully
said, you
ve got this very,
very large apartment complex
taking shape. Until there are
some improvements. We
re not
saying no development ever, no
commercial, uh, activity ever,
but until we have that
infrastructure that should have
been in place 10 years ago.
Until we have that in place,
it
s just irresponsible and
reckless to move forward with
more commercial activity. MR.
Attorney, um, just a question.
Uh, by denying the request,
does that put the city in an
adverse position legally. Again,
I think it
s the legislative
position, uh, it
s legislative
decision. I don
t think it
s
adverse. It
s it for the
jurisdiction of the council to
make that, that call. Um I
don
t, I don
t know what
options the developer would
have if it is denied. I think
it
s in the etj and They, they
would have maybe problems
getting sore, but um. Because
essentially they
ve gone
through the entire process,
they paid. I guess probably
lots of money for due diligence.
They
ve probably done
environmental studies, they
ve
done a plat. And then they
ve
come to the city. For
annexation and if the city
denies it. They essentially
cannot move forward. I know, I
think our planner had said that
there
s a possibility that
there
s a way that they could
still move forward with it. So
in your opinion, you don
t
think that would put the city
in a adverse position. I would
need to research that Mayor,
but uh it
s a legislative
decision. It
s in the
jurisdiction of the council to
make the call here, um. You
know, I do know, um, council
member Scully asks for a motion
to table, so that
s something
y
all need to on the floor. So
it was a recommendation. You
know, there
s a, the main
motion on the floor is to deny
and if you
re making a motion
to table or really a motion to
postpone. That would take
precedence, but is that Is
there a second, you need to, a
point of order, Mayor. I think
you MAY want to see if there
s
a second to that. Is there a
second motion to I would like
to make a motion to postpone. I
second. All right. So there
s a
motion made by Councilor Scully,
seconded by council member,
when we, I mean, you
re
postponing to what? To next
month and to what date would
you like this? Next month would
be would be clarification, that
was the main motion to deny it,
but under Robert rules, a
motion to postpone this takes
precedence and they that
s in
you all
s jurisdiction, so. Yes,
sir. Thank you. All right, um,
as far as clarification. City
staff, do you need any
clarification of what material
that you need or what
additional information, uh, the
attorney can take care of the
legal side, but what additional
information would you like? I
would like to know more about
those trees. I
d like to know.
If any plans are made to put
delineators or median on 10th
Street. I
d like to know. More
about the infrastructure, the
apartment complex and access to
Oaktown Way from the commercial
site. Everything else? Thank
you very much. All right. Any
other discussion before we take
a vote on the motion? Yes, I, I
have a comment. I really
appreciate the thoughtfulness
that Council member Scully has
brought to this conversation
and understand that, uh,
because I feel very strongly
about wanting to deny this, I
m
going to go ahead and vote
against the motion to table,
but I appreciate the
thoughtfulness that you brought.
To raising that as an option
for us. Ok. Any other
discussion. I get a show of
hands, me. As far as The boat,
yeah. Yeah, I can do that, yeah,
absolutely. All right, so all
those in favor. Of tabling this
we said the next next month, is
that correct? Mhm. Yes, sir. Do
we have a specific date? So,
the Thursday, yes, hold on.
Just for the applicant
s
purpose so they know and
anybody else. APRIL 10th. APRIL
10th and just to clarify the
public hearing has been closed,
this would be just simply for a
discussion and a vote. Ok. All
right, all those in favor
please raise your hand. Ok.
Those opposed, raise your hand.
And I am in favor. Ok. So,
Motion passes. 43. All right.
Move on to the next public
hearing. Thank you, Mayor. Item
number 12 ordinance to annex
the enclave, phase one property
involving a total of 10.5683
acres located at 520 plus or
minus feet west of lt Hardy
Road and south of the northern
Suffolk. The Norfolk Southern
Railroad call forward or uh
city planner, Chris Kelly for
the presentation. This property
is located in the eastern part
of the city, more specifically,
this property is located 520 ft
west of lt Hardy Road. And
south of the Norfolk Southern
Railroad, uh, just added
reference north this is Walmart.
This property is located in the
Hardy Creek watershed, and if
stormwater rules apply, it
would require 10-year detention,
the property is also located in
primary service aerial and I
growth map will be located in
City council voting district
number 4. This property is
anticipated to yield 40
multi-family units with an
estimated tax value of $11
million. I
d be happy to answer
any questions. All right, any
questions for MR. Kelly? See
none public hearings now open.
Those speak on behalf of the
applicant MAY come forward.
Please state your name for the
record. The first person has 10
minutes. All others have 3
minutes. See none. Those in
opposition to the African MAY
come forward, please state your
name for the record. First
person has 10 minutes, all
others have 3 minutes. I ain
t
seen none. The public hearings
now closed. I
m for board
discussion our motion to
approve. I have some questions.
Is there a is there a second?
I
d be happy to go ahead. Is
there a second. All right,
motion
s been made by council
member Robinson seconded by
Councilor Scully. Councillor
Mayor Blackburn, uh, yes, I
have some questions and this,
uh. Annexation raises some of
the same issues, although
perhaps not as acutely. Um, is
it possible to get a view, uh,
going back that kind of shows
the area. I know we
ve got, you
know, Elsie Hardy, but is it
possible to get, uh, I don
t
know, just almost like a Google
map view. This is the same area.
And, um, This is where we
ve
had, um, Rezonings, rezoning
requests and, um, a lot of
opposition because, again, the
infrastructure is just not in
place. Where will, if you don
t
mind, uh, MR. Kelly, where will
the entrance and exit for this,
uh, development be. Is that
gonna be on lt Hardy Road? Yes,
ma
am. When we did this
Previously, ok, we did the
rezoning. This is the
annexation. Ok, all right, so
we, it
s already been rezoned
and I, which I did not support,
so this is the next step for
this. Yes, ma
am. And so
they
re requesting annexation
so they can have sewer. Yes,
ma
am. Um 10 acres, about how
many can you tell me about how
many units are gonna be on this
property? Uh, phase one will
include 40 multi-family units.
And about how many, in other
words, about how many, have any
idea how many people, how many
trips, that kind of thing. I
know, traffic wise, no man, but
people calculated at 87 number
of people. 87 people. A lot, a
lot of These are, um Do, are
these the townhouses? Um Yes,
ma
am. Yeah. Ok. Ok, ok. So a
little bit less intensive. Then
uh say a multifamily. It, it
s
still multifamily. Right, but
not like the, uh, the Louis and
the 3, the 3 to an apartment
kind of thing. I, if I remember
when the rezoning came up. They
have the cars can stay, uh, or
can be parked underneath that
kind of thing there. I don
t
know exactly. I don
t know. Ok,
all right. Thank you. Um, Chris,
I have a question. You
mentioned that, um, we don
t
know the increased number of
trips. Is there a reason why we
don
t know for this one when
not in others, we do know the
increased number of traffic
from traffic engineering during
the rezoning before the
annexation. No, ma
am. Ok, got
you. Thank you. All right, any
other questions or discussions?
Got a motion on the table. Mhm.
All right. Motion is to approve
the annexation, all those in
favor say a those opposed say
nay. Oh Oh that was a, I
m
really torn. I
m really torn
because I have the same concern.
Well, we gotta, we gotta, we
gotta be yes or no right now. I
have the same concerns, but, um,
they
re slightly different. So,
um, and we, for the record, we
do, uh, appreciate the
increased tax base, and I think
that
s important for
development of this size, they
do need to work immediately
because I know the construction
is already taking place. The
clerk needs a yay or nay.
Otherwise it
s going to be 60.
So I will, I will vote to
approve this motion passes 6th
year. Thank you. Thank you.
Alright, we
ll move on to the
next public hearing. Thank you,
Mayor. Item number 13 ordinance
to annex Langston Farms phase
11, Section 3 and 4a property
involving 10.4643 acres located
at the current term terminus of
De Meadow Drive in call forward
or city planner Chris Kelly for
the presentation. Um This
property is located in the
southwestern quadrant of the
city, more specifically located
at the current terminus of De
Meadow Drive. This property
drains to the Swift Swift Creek
watershed, and if stormwater
rules apply, will require a 25
year detention. This property
is also located in the primary
service area on shared growth
map, and we, and we
ll be
located at city council ot
district number 2. This
property is anticipated to
yield 33 single-family lots
with an estimated tax value of
$8,250,000. I
ll be happy to
answer any questions for MR.
Kelly? Sina, thank you very
much. Public hearing is now
open. Those who speak on behalf
of the African MAY come forward.
Please state your name for the
record. The first person has 10
minutes. All others have 3
minutes. See none those in
opposition to the outcome MAY
come forward. Please state your
name for the record. The first
person has 10 minutes. All
others have 3 minutes. See none.
The public hearing is now
closed, open for a board
discussion or a motion. Motion
to approve. Second. All right.
Motion
s been made by
COUNCILMAN Robinson, seconded
by COUNCILMAN Willis. Any other
discussion? All those in favor
say aye, as opposed say nay.
Motion passed 60 on to the next
public hearing. Thank you,
Mayor. Item number 14,
ordinance requested by Pitt
County City of Greenville
Airport Authority to rezone
29.719 acres located along the
southern right of way of the
Western Belbore Road in 1700
plus amount of feet west of
North Memorial Drive from ra20
residential agriculture are not
as residential single family
and r6mh residential mobile
home to iu on offensive
industry. I
ll now call forward
our city, uh, chief planner,
Shanti Guy for the presentation.
Right. Good evening. Good
evening. Um, this policy is
located this policy. I
m sorry,
this property is located in the
northern section of the city.
Um, it
s more specifically
located, this would be North
Memorial Drive on your
right-hand side. Um, you see,
uh, to your left and to the
south, that
s going to be the
airport runways, um, in the
corner, this is the dot
Division 2 equipment shop. This
is Belvoir Road. Property is
shown outlined in yellow. But 2
stars on this cause I
m, I want
to show you two different
pictures and I just want to
give you an idea of where these
pictures are taken. Um, so this
first picture, so this is, uh,
the star that
s directly south
of Hop Tyson Road. So you
re,
you
re looking to the south.
That would be the airport in
the uh on the horizon. And then
this is the one closest to the
runway. And again, you can see
the airport in the horizon.
Total property is almost 30
acres. Um, some of the property
is located in what we would
call a special hazard area,
which is basically the blue
that you see. The property does
drain to the Parker
s Creek
watershed. If stormwater rules,
um, Apply, it would require
10-year detention, nitrogen and
phosphorus reduction, and
they
re also MAY be
jurisdictional wetlands,
streams, and riparian buffers
on the property. The requested
zoning could generate a net
increase of 262 trips per day.
We were looking at this between,
um, it is currently zoned
residential and the industrial
use. So under its current
zoning, the property could
yield about 55 single family
homes and under the requested
zoning, it could accommodate
about 150,000 square feet of
industrial or warehouse space.
The future land use plan, uh,
I
m going to start here at the
corner, which is at Memorial in
Belvoir Road, um, the dot, uh,
equipment office that is
recommended for office
institutional. You can see how
that continues to the west. You
have a little bit on the
southern side of Belvoir Road
and then the rest is
recommended for industrial and
logistics. Um, while this
request is from the airport,
the city and the county do have
control over the property. Um,
you MAY remember that city
council did ask the airport to
have at least one public
meeting at the time when you
authorize the rezoning
application, um, the airport
did hold two different meetings,
um, AUGUST 6th and NOVEMBER
14th. I don
t want to steal
their, their thunder. I
ll let
them tell you about their
meetings, but I did want to
remind you that you did ask
them to do that. Um, in staff
s
opinion, um, the requested
zoning isn
t compliance with
future land use plans. And the
horizons plan. Uh, staff
recommends approval and pnz at
their FEBRUARY 18th unanimously
recommended approval of the
request as well, and I
ll be
happy to answer any questions.
Any questions for MISS Gooby?
Thank you very much. Public
hearings now open. Those who
speak on behalf of the
applicant MAY come forward.
Please state your name for the
record. The first person has 10
minutes. All others have 3
minutes. Good evening. Good
evening. How
s everybody? Good
I need to lean one way or the
other. Good evening, MR. Mayor,
uh, council members and staff.
My name is Drake Brinkley. I
m
a commercial real estate
attorney and land use attorney
here in Greenville with Warden
Smith. I
m here on behalf of
the applicant, the Pitt County
Greenville Airport Authority.
We have a team of folks with us
back there. They
re all here to
answer any questions towards
the end that we MAY need, that
you MAY have, excuse me. We
ve
got Bill Hopper in the back,
the executive director of the
Airport Authority, John Banks,
CHAIRMAN Of the board of the
Airport Authority, Terry Mundy,
vice CHAIRMAN Of the Airport
Authority, Brian Foundis is on
the team with Art Consulting
principal professional engineer,
and the one person you MAY not
know is Cara Veel here. Uh,
she
s also a professional
engineer with McFarlane Johnson.
She
s kind of the faa expert on
the team. Um, I
m gonna speak
for a few minutes and then
Cairo will come up as well and
speak and if you have any
questions about faa, she would
be the one to ask those
questions to. But, but truly,
if you have any questions, any
of the team members are here to
answer those questions. Um,
this is a very important
project for our airport. If
there
s one thing I can say
tonight, this is an extremely
important project for our
airport. This is extremely
important project for economic
development, for wait for Pitt
County, Greenville, the whole
region. This is extremely
important project. The airport
has been working on this
project for approximately 18
months. So there
s been a lot
of time and a lot of expense
put into this project. Um, as
always, Ms Gooby
s done a great
job summarizing the application
rather than going through all
the technical and restating all
that again. Um, I
d like to say
that we agree with all the
technical portions of her
summary. Uh, and we appreciate
staff
s recommendation of
approval of this request. Um,
I
d also like to reiterate that
planning a zoning commissions
did unanimously recommend the
approval of this request. There
are a few things I do want to
point out, um, the 5 parcels
that were on the map a minute
ago, they are all, if you
notice, within the footprint of
the airport. So they
re already
kind of on airport land is, is
what I
d say. And if you looked
at it, you would think it is,
it is part of the airport
because it is right at the
airport. Um. The purpose of the
rezoning request is to allow
for certain airport development
that is compatible with
existing airport operations.
And to rezone that to
unoffensive industry. Um, the
one thing I will say too though
is this application is way
different than a lot of other
rezoning applications from a
practical standpoint. Ok? And
the reason for that is because
the faa is gonna have their
hand over this, this whole area,
ok? And so, uh, although a
rezoning request does, as you
all know, allow folks to build
whatever is within the specific
category. If the city code
allows this many uses, the faa
is gonna shrink that down quite
a bit, ok? And so from an faa
standpoint, we can only really
use this property for
aeronautical purposes, ok? And
so from the faa standpoint,
it
s like charter aircraft.
Business, uh, facilities,
corporate hangars, aircraft
maintenance, you know, charging
stations for electric aircraft.
Things like this are
aeronautical type of support
services, ok? Um, the airport
has limited space and property
available for development, and
these properties have been
previously identified for
actually a number of years for
this type of expansion and
development. Um To summarize
some of MISS Gooby
s comments
earlier, the, the current
comprehensive plans and,
frankly, prior comprehensive
plans have expressly identified
this area for the type of
development allowed in on
defensive industry. And the
future land use plan designates
a majority of this property as,
uh, industrial logistics, like
she said, which is
characterized by warehouse and
like manufacturing and includes
the airport area. Uh, the comp
plan goes on over and over
again to emphasize the
importance of the airport as an
economic growth driver. I think
we probably hopefully all agree
on that, um, for the city and
the surrounding area. And
there
s some statistics that
have come out about that
recently in a recent 2025 North
Carolina State of aviation
report. Overall, North Carolina
airports created $88 billion
worth of spending and output,
um, accounts for 11% of the
state
s gdp supports 427,000
jobs and generates 4.8. Billion
dollars in state and local tax
revenues. Um, so really what,
what we
re doing here is we are
creating jobs. That
s what
we
re trying to do. Uh, the
airport is trying to, to Have
support services there on their
property to help and it, yes,
if the things go the way we
want them to go, yes, it would
create jobs at the airport. But
the other thing it does is
support all the other
businesses in our region,
frankly, the region economic
development here has to have a
thriving airport at the end of
the day. And that
s what the
airport is here is asking you
to support that. Um, I do need
to briefly mention on the
community engagement for sure,
that
s a huge piece of this.
And, and yes, we have had a
number of, of meetings to be as
transparent with everybody, uh,
and get input from the
surrounding property owners.
Yes, it was not technically
required of it, of us. We
ve
actually had 3 meetings, not 2.
The first meeting was held, uh,
more than a year ago back on
OCTOBER 17, 2023, there was a
second meeting on AUGUST 6,
2024, a third meeting on
NOVEMBER 14th of 2024. Um, The
airport engaged consultants to
develop comprehensive visuals
just to show the different
types of things that could be
done out there, um, we notified
everybody for these meetings
within the 250 ft radius. And
as the, as we have more and
more meetings and more people
were interested in coming to
those meetings. We then invited
those people back even if they
were outside of the 250 ft
radius to the extent we had
contact information, etc. Um I
personally attended two of
those meetings. I didn
t attend
the first one. I don
t know if
I was engaged at that point,
but I attended two of those
meetings. I felt like they went
very well, um, at the final
meeting. There were no negative
comments about the project and
the development of the project.
Um, and so, now, one thing I do
also want to say is that this
is not the end for public
engagement on this project. The
faa also requires that. So it
s,
it
s outside of the, the city
s
area, but, but there
s, there
s
other opportunity for public
engagement on this project as
we move forward, which is a
great opportunity for me to
pass it off to to Cairo to
explain some of that. But, um,
but certainly if you have any
questions before I do that, I
m
happy to, to take them. I don
t
know that I have questions as
much as I do comment at this
point, can I make a comment as
home? Would you like me to wait?
Probably just want to ask
questions right now and then we
can comment as soon as we close
the public hearing. Ok. Thank
you. One. My name is Kara
Vogley, and I
m a civil
engineer with my friend Johnson.
These North 24 parcels are
owned and maintained by the
airport and are part of the
airfield footprint. However,
the airport is limited in what
it can do with the property
under the current zoning and is
also limited by the faa if the
airport wants access to federal
funding. Some of these faa
design restrictions include
using the land for airfield
purposes, limiting the height
of structures and objects which
we call Part 77. And making
sure the location of structures,
objects, taxiways, aircraft
parking, access roads, and more
are outside of the appropriate
airfield safety zones. Maintain
access to this federal funding,
the airport must abide by these
faa design regulations and
grant assurances. Which are
specific requirements to
maintain and operate the
airport in a safe and
serviceable condition. Limit
airspace hazards. Use airport
revenue properly. Ensure fair
access for all users and more.
The airport layoff plan is a
document that we develop and
submit to the faa that shows
the 20 year future plan of the
airport. This plan also shows
where usable land is located
based on those faa restrictions.
And this shows that the North
24 site is the most suitable
option. This land has direct
access to the existing runway
and taxiway and is large enough
for development. The requested
rezoning. We line the North 24
property more closely with the
existing airfield footprint,
allowing for its use for
various aviation-related
purposes like Drake mentioned,
charter aircraft, corporate
hangars, and so on. The airport
has encouraged community
engagement, and we
ll continue
this as there will be a formal
public comment period during
the environmental assessment
process. Once the faa
requirements are met, the
design process will begin with
the following steps. We must
develop and evaluate salt site
alternatives to determine the
specific use and layout of the
property. And then create a pen
and ink change to the airport
layout plan with the preferred
alternative. Then we
ll gather
data including assessments of
cultural resources, noise and
air quality, and traffic
impacts. Then draft and submit
the environmental assessment
report, along with public
comments and responses. Then
the faa will review the
submission and make a final
decision on whether to proceed
with the project. Again, the
purpose of this rezoning is to
have the ability to provide
supporting uses immediately
adjacent to the airport and to
continue to grow and provide
quality air air services for
the city of Greenville and the
surrounding area. Their custo
own subject property is
consistent with the existing
zoning in the area, the
development trends and the
city
s comprehensive plan. We
respectfully request your
approval of this rezoning
application and our team is
here to answer any questions
you guys have. Thank you. Any
questions? All right, thank you.
Anyone else that would like to
speak on behalf of the app MAY
come forward. Please state your
name for the record. You have 3
minutes. Um, my name is Deborah
Goldberg. And my husband and I
stay in that neighboring area
by the airport. And I would
like to say again, like um.
This black ones it but not
against development, but they
really want it. We caught a
flight out of DECEMBER of last
year. It was awesome. We love
it we love the convenience, you
know, just literally being able
to almost touch the door and
drive out, catch, catch a
flight. It was great. Um, the
only thing I
m wanted to ask is.
I think it was NOVEMBER 14th.
There was a meeting And One of
the meetings, I know at the end
of last year. You guys showed
where it was gonna be. A lot of
things. Um, Open network like
that little. Kind of like a
line and then a little square
coming out. So with the concern
about the trees, are you guys
still gonna, I know several
plans if I
m not mistaken. So
is there gonna be a line of
trees that will be planted up
in there to kind of be like a
filter. More than any kind of
noise or air pollution or
sounds. I Um again, Brian
Pagundis, uh, the short version
is the city has ordinances that
are gonna require since the
airport is a more intense land
use than the neighbors against
it where you guys live. Ok. The
city has ordinances that are
going to require us to have a
vegetated buffer. Between the
airport property and you guys.
So my expectation is at minimum,
you end up with evergreen.
Plantings and a fence. MAY even
end up with a berm, an earthen
berm. Between as well with that
vegetation MAY wind up on. So
picture a hill with trees on it
and then a fence, so you, you
have. There, there
s a couple
of different things that, that.
Impose that one is city
regulation, the other will be
dealing with the faa through
their process with some of the
requirements that part of the
environmental assessment that
Noises a consideration, so
that
ll be part of part of you
help for some of that. And is
it And I directly that there
s
going to be another, about it
ok and just make sure
everything, Correct. There
s
really safe and, Correct,
there
s public notification as
part of that process, and part
of that is notification and
subsequent meetings and that
s
all open to the public and you
guys will be notified. So that,
that, um, tree barrier that.
That, is that going to also go,
so when you turn, when you come
off of that, let
s go. You
trying on Just that that down
there too as well. Just that
I
m not entirely sure if I
m
Following you, but basically
anywhere the airport property
that
s being developed adjoins.
The periphery, this this
residential, it
ll require that
buffer. Ok. So, it
ll probably
be that. That little on that
street and then you turn. This
is a, there
s a fence right
there too, so yeah, it, it MAY,
I don
t know for sure if it
ll
turn the corner, but it MAY
turn the corner. There are a
lot of utility easements in
that area, so that could
prevent, you know, that you
basically where West bellboard
dead ends now that could
prevent some of those across
the dead end, end of the street
there. Ok. Can I ask a quick
question for point of clarity
for those citizens, um, and so
that is, uh, the vegetation
buffer is like 500. Uh, feet
from the backyard of those
citizens on that side is that,
is that correct? I
ve been
making up a number if I told
you yes or no. I, I was just
wondering if that was correct.
So it
ll run the line with,
with the back what we call the
north side of the airport
property. Thank you. So help.
Thank you. Thank you guys.
Thanks, MS. Goldberg. Anyone
else that would like to speak
in favor of the app MAY come
forward. You have 3 minutes.
Please state your name for the
record. All right, see none.
Those in opposition to the
applicant MAY come forward.
Please state your name for the
record. The first person has 10
minutes, all others have 3
minutes. All right, see no
public hearing is now closed,
open for a board discussion or
a motion. Motion to approve.
Seconds. All right, so I got a
motion by Council member
Robinson, seconded by Council
member Scully. Council member
Willis, my comment was I
appreciate the airports, um,
due diligence and um adhering
to our requests and seemingly
going beyond that with the 3
meetings, um, as opposed to the
one, so that
s noted. Mhm All
right, any other comments? I do.
I agree. Um, I also want to
commend you all, um, and thank
you for listening, uh, as far
as uh doing community
engagement. I know I can
sometimes come across as tough
on these topics. Um, but, um,
that thought process for me. No,
um, that thought process for me
is an order of operations, and
that order of operations is
that if we put people first, we
cannot go wrong. We don
t make
decisions that impact people
without them. And so the uh
extensive amount of community
engagement that you guys did
made a difference. Um You all
turned apprehension. In
advocacy. I personally went out
to Oelbo Road with uh members
of Nora and talked to citizens
that live on that little strip
um behind that area and um
particularly MR. William
Wilkins. Shared with me that
not only did you all do the, uh,
meetings that we requested and
we all remember that first
meeting, it was kind of a hot
mess. Um, but it developed and
grew throughout to where the
citizens started supporting you
and that was because they had
input. Um, he was very
appreciative of the fact that
not only did we have those
meetings and what you all don
t
know is that I had meetings
personally in between those
meetings. Um, because one of
the questions that they had,
they did not understand what we
were talking about about
expansion. When citizens think
of expansion, they think that
you all are asking for us to
bring in more flights to
accommodate them. And helping
them understand that no, they
want to bring in bunkers to
service, uh, private jets and
bring in more income, which
will bring in more tax dollars
and blah, you know, so on and
so forth, um. So your efforts.
Made the difference. And for
everyone else, that is the
example that I
m saying about
us setting standards. On what
we expect. Developers to do
when they want to build in our
city or our etj or expand. Um,
you all set the example of how
to do that and to listen to our
citizens and I so greatly
appreciate you. All right, any
other comments or discussion
before we vote? All right. All
those in favor say aye, those
pose say nay. Motion passes 6
to 0. Move on to item number 15,
MR. Manager. Yeah, no, you
re
fine, last but not least I
m
number 15. Ordnance requested
by the planning and Development
Services Department to amend
Title 9, chapter 4 article in
Signs section 233, special
provisions for certain signs by
adding a definition in
standards for official
government flags in the
following zoning districts, cg
General Commercial ch Heavy
commercial piu plan on
offensive industry pr planning
industry. Are you on offensive
industry and, uh, industry with
a maximum flagpole height not
to exceed 130 ft at grade and a
maximum flag size of no more
than 3200 square feet. I will
now ask our chief planner
Shante Gubi to give the
presentation. So I
m gonna
start with just a little brief
history. I don
t want to
belabor the point, but I kind
of just want to bring this up
to current, how we got here, um,
in OCTOBER of last year, staff
received a complaint about a
very large flag, um, staff, uh,
did go out, do a site visit, um.
On OCTOBER 31st, a notice of
violation was sent to the
property owner, uh, due to the
size of the flag. So, NOVEMBER
12th, uh, Camping World did
contact staff concerning the
notice of violation. Um Staff
did explain to them the issue,
which was currently, um, our
ordinance only allows a 216
square foot flag, and there
s
appeared to be much larger than
that. Um, they did let us know
their flag was 3200 square feet.
Um, we discussed, uh, possible
remedy, which was to amend the
ordinance or a text amendment
like we have here every month.
Um, we explained the process in
NOVEMBER 5th, 15th, Camping
World submitted a text
amendment that, um, would
remedy their situation as far
as the size of the flag and the
flagpole. Um, after reviewing
it, staff did notify Camping
World that we would have to
recommend, uh, the text
amendment as they, um, uh, had
proposed it. We did not receive
any follow-up from Camping
World, um, but for the lack of
communication on Camp and world
side, there is always a
possibility that city staff and
Camp and World, um, could have
possibly come up to come up
with a text amendment, um, that
could have remedied their
situation. This tax amendment
went forward DECEMBER 17th,
planning and zoning recommended
denial. That same request came
to council in JANUARY of this
year, council recommended
denial. And so, um, we are back
because counsel asked staff to
bring forth a text amendment.
So I just wanna just. Go ahead
and talk about what, uh, what
we have right now. So I took
this photograph JANUARY 28th.
This was taken across the
street from, uh, the ice
skating rink. So you have their
flagpole, which is 130 ft, and
that
s essentially the piece
that you see, right? You have a
flag that
s 40 by 80. Which is
3200 square feet. And then I
also wanted to provide you sort
of a plot plan of where this
flagpole actually is on the
property because it is so large,
you tend to not have an idea of
how far back it is from the
road. So I
ve put a yellow star.
Um, across the street. This
would be, um, the ice skating
rink. And so just easy measure,
it
s about 100 ft from the
right of way off of Red Banks
Road. It is 155 ft from Evans
Street and then from the corner
itself it
s about 220 ft. So
this is a summary of what
Camping World
s request was, um,
it was for non-commercial flags.
It involved 16 different
non-residential zoning
districts. It allowed 3
flagpoles, 3 flags. That would
be a total of 9 flags with a
total square footage of 28,000
square feet. Maximum maximum
flagpole height 130 ft. There
was no minimum lot size for a
qualifying property. Um, there
was no zoning permit required,
only a building permit because
the flagpole and the way that
it
s installed. And then there
weren
t any setbacks for the
flagpole itself. So this is a
map, you
ve seen it before.
This map illustrates, um, the
properties of the 16
non-residential zoning
districts. So the zoning
districts you see on the
right-hand side, those are
illustrated on the map as red.
Just a very easy graphic of
what their text amendment 3
flagpoles, 3 flags each, up to
3200 square square feet. So As
staff was directed to come up
with um a text amendment, uh,
we looked at what we saw were
the defense the dis the
deficiencies with the original
request, and I want to go
through what we looked at and
then how we sought to correct
those. Um, the first thing we
looked at was the flag type at
that time they
re text
amendment was non-commercial,
which is very broad. So we have
limited this to official
government flags have a
definition of a few slides back
that we
ll get to. We also
looked at the zoning districts
and a way to reduce those
zoning districts. So we have
reduced it from. The 16 that
they asked to 6. We added a
minimum property size. It
s a
large flag, so we decided there
should be some kind of
clarifier in the size of
property that could have a flag
that size. So we have added in
a minimum size of at least 5
acres. Also with this text
amendment, we reduced it down
very simply. One flagpole, one
flag up to 3200 square feet. We
added setback requirements. So
essentially we
re treating the
flag as a structure, or the
flagpole itself. So the
flagpole has to abide by the
setbacks of the zoning district
it
s in. And then, um, the last
thing we did was we included a
zoning approval. Um, the, Um,
their text amendment. Tried to
put the flags in a category of
where they didn
t have to be
approved by zoning. So we have
added that flags in in this
category. I, I
ll, I
ll call it,
um, does have to go through, um,
a zoning permit, uh, or zoning
compliance permit. It already
has to have a building permit
because again, it
s a 130 ft
flat pole. So just a quick
summary again, uh, we distilled
this down to only 6 districts.
Those districts are
non-residential. One pole, one
flag. Up to 3200 square feet.
Flagpole height stays the same.
Property has to be a minimum of
5 acres. Um, still requires
building permit, but you
ll
also be required a zoning
permit. And again, the flagpole
was treated um as a structure,
so it will have to abide by the
setbacks for that district. So
this map shows you right-hand
side, you have those 6
districts that we listed. And
then those districts are shown
on red. We also sifted out any
properties less than 5 acres.
So the best way I can describe
this to you isunities is what
this red map looks like or what
this red map sort of
illustrating. Again, one flag,
one pole. For flat type, we
added a definition for official
government flags. So again,
these standards only apply to
this kind of flag. We have
added a specific definition.
This is actually borrowed from
North Carolina General statutes.
So flags in this category would
be the flag of the us flags of
nations recognized by the us,
the North Carolina state flag.
Flag of a state or a territory
of the us and then number 5,
flags of political subdivisions,
essentially a county or a city
flag within the us. Some
additional standards that we
have added, um, it MAY have
indirect lighting. So again,
like from the ground up. Um, we
did add a measurement, which is
1 ft candle. Again, that
s very
dim. Um Another, another piece
that we added in is that the
flagpole in the flag has to be
an accessory to a primary use.
So what that means is a vacant
property would not qualify for
a flag. It has to have a
primary use, a restaurant, a
store, a car wash. Um, of
course, the flagpole and the
flag have to remain in good
repair. And then the last piece,
um, this is not an uncommon
rule. Um, the flagpole does
have to be located 100 ft from
the intersection of two streets,
and it showed you on my plot
plan, it
s about 220 ft from
the intersection. This is just
a a very distilled version to
compare the differences, uh,
between the two separate
requests. So the camp in World
request is in the center cities,
uh, request is on the
right-hand side. Again, we have
distilled it down from just a
non-commercial flag to an
official government flag. Um,
we, we
ve reduced it from 16
districts to 6, reduced it down
to one flag. We
ve also added
in a minimum lot size, you
re
gonna have to get zoning
approval. And again, we
ve also
added setbacks as well. A
comparison of just if you
looked at the zoning itself and
how it
s symbolized um camp in
World
s request would be on the
left-hand side. So again, all
of those uh red properties,
again, you could sort of look
at those as opportunities and
then staff
s request, again,
6th districts at least 5, acres
in size. And then just to give
you some trivia, um, Camping
World, uh, request included a
most Um, 1250 parcels. The
city
s request is less than 300
parcels. So again, to give you
the difference in lessening the
opportunity. So in staff
s
opinion, um, this text
amendment is in compliance with
the Horizons plan specifically
chapter one, Building great
places. I am not going to read
all of this to you, just to
distill it very simply. This is
talking about the, the visual
appeal of your street, the
aesthetics. That is essentially
what this is getting at. And so
in staff
s opinion, this text
amendment does meet the intent
of this. Little unusual, so in
FEBRUARY, uh, planning and
zoning recommended denial 5 to
4. Of the request and then they
also made a subsequent motion,
and this was unanimous to
recommend a council a
modification. To the text
amendment. Essentially that the
maximum flag size should not
exceed 760 square feet. Where
that number comes from is tied
back to flag code. So that
s
where the 760 square feet comes
from. And again, this goes back
to flag, um, etiquette and
decorum. And then I just want
to give you the next steps if
you approve this request, um,
the next steps would be
obviously camp and world would
have to apply for a zoning
permit that would also have to
go back through the the.
Building permit process, um,
there would be inspections and
then hopefully at the very end,
if they jump through all the
hoops, they would obtain a
certificate of compliance. And
with that, I
m at the end of my
slides. I
ll be glad to answer
any questions. How many, uh,
how long of a process is it
once they apply for the new
permits. Typically. If, um, the
zoning permit process is fairly
quick. I mean, we
re talking 24
hour turnaround. Building
permit, again, if they give us
everything that we need this,
this can be done within a
business week, even sooner if
they give us everything that we
need. So this would not be a
long drawn out process. So
essentially they could probably
complete each of these steps
within a week. Yes. Ok. Thank
you. Councilor Blackburn.
Couple of questions. So, um,
The uh suggestion from planning
and zoning, uh, to abide by the
flag code at 760 square feet. I
appreciated. But My
understanding is that the flag
was put up and the flag
s not
going anywhere. So in some ways,
Is it, is it fair to say that
the. Text amendment that we
re
presenting and that we are
considering tonight is done to
cover a situation that
s
already in place. Is that a
fair statement? This will
remedy that situation as far as
getting them. With the
regulations in place. That they
could go through the next steps,
the, the permits I spoke about
earlier, and I don
t want to
put you on the spot and ask you
something you can
t answer, but
let
s say, let
s say we approve
this and they
ve got more
additional hoops, additional,
uh, uh requirements they should
should do and let
s say that
they yet again fill out uh uh
uh a false building permit
request and they erect some
other kind of flag or do some
other kind of step. Have, have,
has so far has our staff been
able to get compliance with any
city codes. In any city
ordinances in regarding this
flag. I, I will speak to the
last. Step that we have had
with them in good faith would
be the citations that they paid
near the beginning of when they
were receiving violations, and
since then staff has not had
any feedback from Camping World,
any communication whatsoever.
And about how much, uh, uh, in
citations have they accrued
already? I have a slide for
that. So as of today, um,
they
ve been cited a total of
uh almost $9000. They paid 650
which covers the 1st 4
citations and then since then
it
s been quiet. Thank you. And
then one last question. Um, I
think when, when we first
considered doing some, you know,
requesting to see some kind of
text amendment. We have the
understanding that it could be
limited to a us flag. It looks
like that
s not the case with
this current amendment. It is
any flag of any nation
recognized by the United States.
Is that right? Within the
definition, yes, ma
am. So
that
s, uh, a 3200 square foot
flag that can be put up on a
5-acre parcel within these 6
zoning districts could be a
Russian flag. Canadian flag.
Flag of the European Union. A
flag of Colombia. Am I right?
Any of these flags would be
permissible. You
re correct. Ok.
Thank you. Well they need to
pay the citations before. Um,
filling out the new application.
I don
t think we can hold them
to that, um, but we certainly
would accept their payment. And
we would accept their permits.
You know, we would, we would
need to pursue our normal
collection procedures. Which
would include continuing to
build for the outstanding
balances. With include
penalties and interest. Uh, to
that, and if that does not
suffice, then we
d have to take
additional measures. What I
m
sorry, what are the normal
procedures for a business that
With, um Have a construction
project against city ordinances
that didn
t have a flag. Let
s,
let
s forget about the flag for
a second. If this was another
business that constructed
130-foot structure and, and,
and did nothing. What would the,
what would our normal procedure
look like? To just add a little
sort of divvy between this, um,
you know, this flagpole and
this flag arrived overnight,
typically a construction
project is built out in phases
and there are many things that
happen, you know, you
re going
to put things in the ground,
then you
re gonna frame it and
then you
re gonna do x. And as
you go through that process and
we realize something is wrong,
then we can do or, or Chief
building inspector can do
what
s called a stop work order.
And essentially stop you, pause
you from getting yourself any
deeper. This situation is much
different because this happened
in one afternoon, um, but
typically we do have, um,
Safeguards so that when
something does start to go off
the rails or we find something
is going off the rails, we can
pause the construction. Thank
you. So if I understand, if we
pass this amendment, this does
not waive any penalties or fees
that they have accumulated and
will continue to accumulate. If
we approve this and they get a
building permit approved. It
was continued to accrue up
until that point, right? I
think what would happen is, is
we would have two different
strains, and what I mean by
that is, is if you approve this
text amendment tonight. The
issue with the size of the flag
stops, right? Then they have to
start the Permit process for
set flag, and then and so
that
s where we kind of hit a
soft stop. But then they still
have to pick up the next step,
which is to apply for the
permits. The fines for the size
of the flat would stop. And
With the new permit that we
required to submit this passes.
Then they had to submit an
engineer
s report, which puts
the engineer on the hook
liability wise if something in
the flag fails the schematic
drawing. Yeah Yes, the safety
issue. That
s right, and that
s
on the building uh code side,
but yes, you
re correct,
they
ll have to provide, um,
either an
built. Right, of
what they
ve done. Or Stardier,
which is probably not the route
they would. So, you
re not just
going have camping involved,
you
re going to have some
engineer who
s putting his
signature. Sign and stamped. In
terms of liabilities, you
ve
got more than just one person,
just, ok, thank you. Having
said that, um, with it being a
building permit, uh, we do know
that, that this particular flag
has not been inspected. Right.
Yes, ma
am. Um, with that being
said. Uh, the application was
for. Uh, 70 ft and we do have.
Um, foundational requirements
for the what we have in our
current ordinance. State
building code has the specs for
the height of the flagpole and
then what was required
underground essentially. Yes,
ma
am. Um, it
s a requirement
for The foundation, this
underground for 130 ft flag.
Ask me a question one more time.
So is that to, has that been
adjusted to scale. For 130 ft
flag that this is what
s
required. Definitely it adjusts
as the height of the flagpole
increases. Do we have that
information? No, ma
am. That
would be part of the, the new
building permit that an
engineer would have to stamp
saying that it, it meets the,
the building code. So with that
being said, How are we to know
for a flag that has already
been erected. That what they
have. Meats what would be then
required. Um, I, I don
t want
to steal his thunder. We have
the chief building inspector
who told me this stuff this
afternoon, and I think he can
very eloquently explain it
better than I can on how that
can be done. Ok. Ground
penetrating radar, right? I
just need to know. Hey, how
often, how often do we get the
chief building inspector. This
is, this is your moment to
shine right here. I gave her
all the information today, um,
would you ask that one more
time? I
m sorry. So, um, the
request was made for what we
have in ordinance right now
with the foundation that
supports that, um, we
ve done
or presented this text
amendment to allow what they
have already erected. And which
would require a different
foundation to support that for
safety purposes, right? So how
do we know since that has
already been erected that.
Basically there
s a number of
ways of doing that they could
use ground penetrating radar
they could do that. Um, they
could possibly do they MAY have
taken pictures when they put
this flagpole in, we just don
t
know about it. They MAY have
already had that information.
Um, the building code or state
code does allow for an engineer
to sign off on some concrete
work. That stuff they MAY have
already had all this done and
just haven
t provided with us.
But we would require engineered
documents, some type of
certification that the
foundation that is in place is
in fact what would be designed
for that flagpole for 130 ft
for our wind zone and the flag
size that would be on it. So MR.
Mills, would you also use the
construction order? That they
that they submitted to the
contract. We would use that.
Yes, that is correct when they,
when they submit a new set of
plans to us for the 1:30 that
will give us the details of
actually what will be required
for this flood and it would
come from, it would already
come engineered for our wind
zone, yes. Now I
m going to
potentially put you on the spot
and I apologize if, if, if it
s
not something you uh feel
comfortable answering just no
problem. Um, but given what
we
ve seen so far, the response
of this company to city
requests to comply. Do we have
a reasonable expectation that
if they don
t meet our
requirements for how that pole
should be engineered. Do we
have any reasonable expectation
that they will change it or
comply or bring it up to to
this code any more than they.
Did not bring it up to the
previous code. I
m glad you
allowed me to defer on this
question because I, I can
t
answer that one. Understood.
Ask a question. If they don
t
supply you with what you think
is a necessary materials, you
won
t issue the building permit.
Absolutely, that is correct. So
you
ve got to receive
information that you feel
satisfied that this foundation
satisfies the structural
engineering. That
s been given
to you by the engineer. Prior
to we would issue a building
permit we would have that
information and we would not
issue a certificate of
compliance until that data has
been provided to us
satisfactorily. So even though
we MAY we do pass this
amendment. Uh They will have a
billing permit unless they do
that, so that then they would
be in violation of the current
or the one we do amend if we do
amend it, correct? That is
correct. Thank you very much.
And if I MAY follow-up question
on that point of like just
process to COUNCILMAN
Robinson
s question. They, they
do not comply. They get this,
you know, failure to comply.
What happens then? Do we know
just in, in terms of the, the
process, what, what would
happen then if they do not
either don
t provide the
documents or they can
t
demonstrate that they comply
with our ordinance. They, they
get this failure to, to, to
comply with our ordinance, then
are we, what, what happens then?
There are avenues for that, and
I would have to refer to our
legal department for that. And
in the zoning context, if
there
s a failure to comply,
you issue a notice of violation
and you see if it
s the appeal
to the board of adjustment and
after that
s exhausted, they
could appeal to to this to the
superior court, but in this
instance, Captain World hadn
t
appealed anything, so. In terms
of the zoning violation, for
instance. We
re in a posture
where we can proceed
immediately to with legal
remedies, um. With the building
permit, I would. Um Uh,
deferred to my building
inspector about the the
remedies under state law there,
but there are there are state
law remedies for building
permit violations as well. So,
um. There are, I mean, there
there are some steps that we
could take, um, I
m, I
m
speaking very hypothetical and
I don
t like to make
hypothetical statements. Um,
but, but if you
re asking me,
we would, we would go a route
that would, would lead us down.
A pathway to possible
condemnation and that would
lead to some legal, I would
need to defer to our legal
department on on exactly what
steps we would take on that
that that that is right. If, if
they, if they do not comply
with the building, with a
building permit. At that point
in time after the if this
textin
s approved, you would go
down the road of legal action
through a condemnation. And
does that go through board of
adjustment or is that something
city initiated? Ok. Ok. Thank
you very much. Have we had
situations where people have
filed permits and I guess not
done what they
re supposed to
do based off the permit that
they file. Yes. Is it pretty
common for. City staff. To come
up with a remedy to be able to
fix. What the issue is with the.
I guess violation of the permit
that they pulled. I would say a
majority of the time with that
would be yes. Ok. Thank you.
Any other questions, comments?
Mercy staff. You wanna do it
one more time, MISS Scooby? I
m
sorry, you want to do it one
more time? I, I, I
ve, I
ve
said it so much. I feel like
I
m just repeating it on uh, on,
on replay. Thank you. Thank you
very much. Public hearing, you
got a question. Ok. One more
question. Well, and this MAY be
not, not be from a scooby, but
so if this does not Pass
tonight. What are the
ramifications. Um We as
planning would continue to
issue the notice of violations.
That
s, that
s where this sends
us because we, um, For us in my
little world, it
s a zoning
issue, so we would continue as
we have. So legally, where
would we be, I do believe it
brings up another question. Of
what type of action uh do we
pursue if this does not pass.
And uh, I think we would have
to seek the the guidance of our
in-house counsel. From a legal
perspective of what that would
look like. If it doesn
t pass,
we, we. Council has the right
to go on to close session of
attorney-client privilege to
talk about legal remedies if Or
violations of zoning violations,
building code violations, um.
You
re gonna impose penalties
as you know, you could also. A
lawsuit, but We could have
those, you, you have the right
to have those conversations in
closed session to talk about
legal remedies. And, and Does
that include the cost that the
city Would incur as far as
court fees, attorney fees, and
things like that in terms of
attorney
s office, most
litigation. We engage that
council because there
s just 3
of us and, um, so there would
be some cost. Uh, when we
pursue litigation, it just
costs involved typically. Thank
you. What a winning lawsuit. Uh,
when those costs back and uh
Not typically there are no
statutes. You know, you have to
have an attorney fee statute to
get it to recover your fees for
cities. General Assembly ain
t
giving us that much love
prevail, there
s no statute
typically that allows us to
recover fes. Council if I
understand my question counsel.
So if I understand currently.
County is getting ready to
undergo the electronic filing
system. That
s been put in
place all over North Carolina.
Where everything goes to paper.
My experience has been as a
litigator in another district
that that adds. Typically 2 to
34 months to the process
because they go from 20 to 300
on a docket to 50. We
re going
to that system. In APRIL, late
APRIL, full blow. And I know
it
s going to really drag our
court system down. It
s not
anybody
s fault. It
s just the
software that works. So I would
suggest probably in a case like
that, if we did seek litigation.
I
m going to suggest it
s
probably a year and a half or 2
year process. And I would say
probably in excess of a quarter
million dollars, if not more.
Yeah, that
s just my opinion.
But having been in the legal
system for almost 39 years, I
m
gonna tell you I
m gonna be
fairly accurate about it, and
that
s at least 1.5 to 2 years
that we have invested in it if
we had to go that route. And I
think as counsel, that
s
something we should be. Very
mildful particularly for
looking at that kind of money.
That kind of time period. What?
Any other questions? Before we
open up the public comment, the
public hearing, excuse me. All
right, see none of the public
hearing is now open. Those who
speak on behalf of the
applicant MAY come forward.
Please state your name for the
record. The first person has 10
minutes, all others have 3
minutes. See none, those in
opposition to the applicant MAY
come forward. Please state your
name for the record. The first
person has 10 minutes, all
others have. 3 minutes. Uh,
good evening. My name is Mark
Parker. I spoke on this matter
before and I
m hearing a lot of
verbal gymnastics going up here.
Talking about the cost and
stuff like this. Making a
band-aid for what Captain World
did in the beginning. Let
s
talk about the facts like
Councilor Robinson talked about
the facts about traffic and all
this other stuff about, we
assume people are going to
follow the rules and follow the
law. The camping world follow
the ordinance? No, let
s start
with the facts. They willfully
disobeyed the orders. That
s
number one. So I, they
willfully decided not to have
the flag or the flagpole
inspected. Number 3. They
willfully dis you know,
basically this side to disobey
the council
s, uh, ruling when
you said no, um, against the
flag. We
re not what gets them
breaking the ordinance. They
went on media and all this
stuff to try to basically try
to hype everybody up and go off
my 4th, my 4th point. Basically,
they use patriotism of the
people of the symbol of the
flag as a false flag. If
anybody don
t know what false
flag means, that
s basically
taking something and using it
to be deceptive. And using that
to sway people
s opinion. And
I
m a veteran, like I said, I
raised my hands twice for this
country. That flag is not to be
disrespected, nor used as a
propaganda of peace. COUNCILMAN
Robinson, how are you doing? I
want to like, so I really wanna
address you about when you were
talking about the traffic and
development about saying that
you assume everyone is going to
follow the law. We also assume
that everybody
s gonna follow
the ordinance of the city of
Greenville have put forth.
Camping world has not done that.
And now we
re just gonna give
them a pass. They
ve done this
all over the country. Seville,
Tennessee is going through the
same process right now. Their
public officials have been
receiving written threats.
Bunch of your fear received
negative um comments. I
ve read
the negative comments on
Facebook. And now they just get
a pass, but what I, as an
individual in Greenville, get
the same respect. Or the same
courtesy that Camperor was
getting? No. So why are we
doing this? Now we
re talking
about the legal fees, and
they
re going to do a victory
lap if we do this amendment.
I
m totally against it. It
pisses me off. I am, I mean,
I
m tired of it. How we
re at a
point in our country now that
we
re letting corporations do
whatever they want to do. And
we, the people, we, the people.
Are getting treated as we
should. Yes, it
s a beautiful
flag, but Flagpole was too big,
flag is too big. Now we want to
basically put a band-aid on and
say, ok, hey, let
s let it make
it come in compliance so we
could just move along. They
have all the money. I mean,
they have billions of dollars,
but they only pay $650. Come on.
Why are we making exceptions
for them. Now, what would, what
now, what if I built a flagpole.
And did and used it for other
reasons, less than 130 ft. Less
than the 3200 square feet, and
I used it to I could put
different, say, hey, you want
to put your flag up and talk
about this, talk about that, or
I
ll give you another example.
All right, we all have our
sacred symbols. Once somebody
said, well, I can build a cross
that is so big. Certain amount.
I put it that that that height,
making the dimensions that cry
by the words, but then what if
I at night decide, you know
what? I
m gonna put kerosene on
that. I
m gonna put it on fire.
Don
t distort the image. Of
sacred items in our country,
and that was, that
s what
s
been done with Camping World.
In the audience here, we have
some veterans back here. And
they can tell you the same
thing. We are patriotic. We put
our lives on the line for this
country. All Kemp world this
dude, they
re trying to exert
their dominance. And they don
t
care if they disrupt our
community, they don
t care.
They
re just gonna move and
build another facility, do the
same thing like they
ve been
doing all over the country. So
I firmly stand against it.
That
s all I got to say and I
m,
and I
m, I
m actually sad
to see the shift. You made the
decision in 1st,, 1st, but then
GOD at the in the last meeting
we started seeing people kind
of say, well, what if we did
this? If they had did what they
were supposed to do in the
beginning, none of this will be
going on. We wouldn
t be here
And just for them, like I said,
I believe in accountability and
responsibility. For everyone. I
don
t care from the highest to
the lowest. And that
s all I
got to say. Thank you. Thanks,
MR. Parker. Anyone else who
d
like to speak in opposition to
the applicant MAY come forward.
Please state your name for the
record. You have 3 minutes. Uh,
my name is Pedro. Hello again,
guys, um. I
m glad that he
started me off cause it kinda.
Clear some stuff up for me.
This is a clear pattern with
this company. Um, we have here
Seville, Tennessee. Same thing,
they
re being sued. Uh, court
date set for 4:15 2025. I
ll be
there. Flag not coming down.
This is from 2020 2017, these
towns have said no to our
American flag a camping world.
Help us change that like you
did in City of Georgetown. And
then he lists very, he
s very
happy about this, um proud
about it. Fresno, California,
Golden, Colorado, Longmont,
Colorado, Sacramento,
California, Vacaville,
California, Woodville, Oregon,
Bridgeport, New Jersey.
Kissimmee, Florida. Fountain,
Colorado, Statesville, North
Carolina, Olive Branch,
Mississippi. Hanover County,
Virginia. This one is actually
targeted to our council here.
Dear Greenville, North Carolina,
Utahed having a city council
meeting to the public in an
effort to remove the pressure
you received. I
m not gonna
read the whole thing. This one
is pretty long. This one is
Statesville, Hay City of
Statesville, we have received
your lawsuit regarding our us
American flag. It will not come
down. This one is, again,
towards you guys, the flag is
not coming down. And this one,
this is what I think probably
is gonna get a lot. Lot of
people mad. You can find me all
you want, City of Greenville,
North Carolina. He will not pay
these fines, even if we let him
put his flag up, he
ll probably
say that he doesn
t have to pay
the fines because you guys
allowed him to put the flag up.
This is another one from
Georgetown, Kentucky. City of
Georgetown. What
s up with not
allowing an American flag a
camping world. So all that to
say, this is a pattern with
Camping World, um, and
obviously proposing this, um,
this proposed amendment, it
would fix the issue with the
flag, but that
s not the issue
really. At the end of the day,
the issue was not with the flag.
It
s a beautiful flag. I am the
child of immigrants. I love
that flag. But this flag that
he
s put up has brought hate
online, that is not what the
American flag stands for,
because the people that you see
that say, oh, yes, it
s good
that this flag is up. These
people are not the people that
actually know what that flag
means and love that flag. Um,
the permit that they applied
for, in my opinion, they should,
they, it should be condemned
now. They applied for a permit.
The permit said that the
flagpole had to be 70 ft, and
the, the square footage, 216 ft.
They knew what they were doing.
They applied for that, for that
permit. And they, they
knowingly said no, we
re gonna
do whatever I want because I
ve
done it everywhere and nobody
s
done anything to me. So I just
did a little bit of math here.
The flag that they put up is
more than 1000 times the size
that the Greenville City
Ordinance allows. That
s time.
Thank you, thank you for your
time. Thank you. Anyone else
you
d like to speak in
opposition to the applicant MAY
come forward. Please state your
name for the record. You have 3
minutes. Evening. My name
s
Eric Horseman, um. I time this
out pretty carefully to be 3
minutes, but I think, uh,
sounds like you
re gonna hear
from a lot of folks who are
pretty upset about this. I
m
just gonna edit out some of
these things that are repeating
what they
re saying, to focus
on some things I think they
probably aren
t gonna tell you,
uh, so I lived here 15 years,
um, I
ve only come to a city
council meeting a couple of
times to talk, um, but this
particular issue has me pretty
upset. I followed it pretty
closely, uh, it has been
frustrated enough to show up
because I
m pretty concerned
that you, the city council, are
about to approve this text
amendment solely to make an
annoyance go away. Uh, and this
does not serve the citizens of
Greenville. Uh, I have no
problem with a big flag, as
many of us, nobody here does,
um, my problem is with the
process, uh, that this has gone
through, which can
t bring
worlds approached this and
recently how the city council
has, uh, since JANUARY, uh, has
responded to that. My concern
is that this relatively
unimportant flag issue, uh, is
the response to it gonna set a
really unpleasant example. Uh,
particularly if this is
approved, I think our local
government simply rolling over,
giving up in the face of
resistance from a little bit of
resistance from not a state
corporation. Um, it makes me
concerned that how can we trust
the decisions made, uh, by you
all are benefiting local
residents rather than these
corporate interests when the
two conflict. Here
s something
important. Uh, I read the
proposed text amendment very
carefully. Uh, I don
t think
anyone else has actually
checked the math in there. One
thing that the city planner
didn
t tell you is that as
written, uh, the current text
of the proposed amendment
includes this text. The hoist
side of the flag shall not
exceed 30% of the height of the
pole, unquote. That 30% is a
proposed change. I
m pretty
sure it came from that original
camping world, uh, proposal
that you all got and was maybe
just copied and pasted into the
city
s version, uh, get your
calculator, check that. You
ll
see that 30% of 130 ft is 39 ft.
Not 40 ft. The 40 ft tall flag
that
s currently there. Uh,
would exceed their post
allowable flag height, it will
still be out of compliance if
you propose what
s in front of
you right now. The current back
is a bit, it
s a big flag, uh,
so big, in fact, it
s
disrespectful. Uh, it can
t be
flown at half-staff. The photo
that uh, that the city planner
showed you was during Jimmy
Carter
s, uh, period of
memorial, right? That was
flying at half staff, lowered
about 10 ft. That
s all they
can do. If Camping Worlds want
to fly a big flag, that
s great.
Let
s have a respectful,
reasonable size. Um, the, uh,
planning and zoning commission
gave you a reasonable size. You
can actually go a little bit
bigger than that according to
the, uh, the, uh, flag code
could be as big as 22 ft in
about le ng th of 43 ft, the
height of 22 ft, and the height
of a length of 43 ft. That
s an
area of 946 square feet. That
s
a pretty big flag. Uh, for the,
uh, for that size, that size
pole. Um, and I think I
ll
finally conclude by saying that
um I agree with uh planning and
zoning commissioner member Alan
Thomas, who in the FEBRUARY
discussion talked about having
a lot more respect for someone
who wears a tiny flag on their
uniform and every day, every
day that somebody like camping
world, uh, ceo Mark Lamonis.
I
ll stop now, uh, but I want
to say that, um, this has me
pretty upset, as you can
probably see, um, and, uh, I
think you should vote this down
or adjust this to a reasonable
size. Thank you. Thank you.
Anyone else that
d like to
speak in opposition to the
applicant MAY come forward,
please state your name for the
record. You have 3 minutes.
Maxwell and uh This, uh, like,
uh, Eric just said this issues
had me pretty upset for a long
time. Uh, I
m upset with the
controversy it
s brought. I
m
upset with how It
s caused
people on the council to be
attacked by citizens of
Greenville. I
m really upset
with the tactics that uh
Camping World uses, they
ve
done it all across the country.
They
re paying multi-million
dollar fines in one state for
Uh, basically ripping their
customers off, selling them,
telling them they
re selling
one thing and sell them
something else. I just saw
another article in uh
Charleston, South Carolina.
They
ve had complaints
Constantly since 2009 for um
misrepresenting what they
re
selling to people. Uh, they
re
using the flag as advertisement,
which is against the anything
that this country should stand
for. Um The, the way they
filled out the Uh, permit, um.
Knowing exactly what they were
planning on doing. Matter of
fact, at the earlier meeting,
the fellow who came
representing Captain World. Was
asked specifically, did they
ever order a flag or pole that
size? No, we, we never really
did that. They never were gonna
do that. Uh, as this guy, uh,
he, he just read. Uh, where the
owner of the company, he
basically is thumbing his nose
at everybody saying, you know,
I
m gonna do what I want to do,
heck with y
all. Um, if, if you
guys approved this, this is
basically cave and to somebody
who
s a bully, and it just
ticks me off to no end to see
anybody, uh, come into our
community. As far as I
m
concerned, I wish this company
never come here. And uh, you
know, I don
t know what we can
do about it, but At least we
could have a flag that makes
some sense. This is ridiculous.
Thank you. Thank you, MR.
Maxwell. Anyone else would like
to speak in opposition to the
applicant MAY come forward.
Please state your name for the
record. You have 3 minutes.
Hello Rebecca Powers. You
ve
heard some Very eloquent and
thorough. Comments about this.
Um I
d like to add Something
new. Um It
s kind of the two
issues, the process, but it
s
also the flag. And so I
d like
to Speak again about the
symbolism of the flag. And that
When you see it as it is now,
it
s like a mockery. Of our
flag And it
s just heart
wrenching. Because it
s so
humongous and wrong. You
re
going to have an ordinance. We
expect people to follow it and
reinforce the ordinance. This
flag is a respected symbol of
our country. And it seems Not
to be that in this form. And
it
s set in a terrible
precedence. Now we
re gonna say
one other thing that came up
tonight that just um hadn
t
occurred to me when you asked
the building inspector about
our ordinances changed. And he
said, if I remember right, he
said a lot of the time and
there was a gasp in the room
because we didn
t know that,
but I would like to suggest
that there
s never been an
ordinance changed about the
American flag flying in
Greenville. If the building
s
inspector had to change
something, it probably had to
do we moved the sidewalk a
little to the right, moved the
sidewalk a little to the left.
It
s not about flying that flag.
i ask you, please vote no to
the amendment, put an end to
this issue. For us, we put it
on you, it goes legally, but we
got to do it. Vote no. Thank
you. Thanks for clarification,
I didn
t say the ordinance
changed. I said, is somebody
not in compliance with a permit?
Do they make the correction?
And then he responded back and
said. Most of the time, I
believe. Oh, do they make the,
oh, I totally misinterpreted
that. I thought you were asking
I didn
t say the ordinance that
would have to come through the
city council for approval. Oh,
I did misunderstand. I thought
you meant that we just change
it for them so they
re, they
re
in compliance. No, we ask them
to be in well, that sounds fair.
That
s what we
re supposed to
do. Correct. Be in compliance.
Correct. Thank you. All right.
Anyone else who
d like to speak
in opposition to the app MAY
come forward. Please state your
name for the record. You have 3
minutes. Times one night.
That
s a record for me. Uh So I
said earlier this was one of 2
votes in which it
s imperative
that you vote no. The first
time you chose otherwise, but
we
ll see how that turns out. I
want to echo something you said
earlier, council member
Robinson. Pertaining to Our
traffic issue on 10th Street,
we need our traffic department
to be issuing tickets and
enforce those tickets. When
people break the law, you
enforce the law. You didn
t say.
We changed the law for them. We
just increased the speed limit
so they
ll they
ll be fine now.
And they would have been fined
because they were speeding. But
we
re just gonna kind of ignore
that too. Right Am I right? I
m
just listening to your comment,
I did break the law, you
enforce the law, yes. And you
are an attorney you are an
attorney and so, yes. So they
broke the ordinance. I
m It
seems obvious to me that we
enforce the ordinance. It
s
really disturbing that that
could cost us an estimated 25%
of a million dollars. I, I
would say let
s, you know,
let
s, let
s try and verify
that number, but I don
t think
it
s right. That someone
behaves in this way. And you
just change the ordinance to
accommodate that behavior.
We
re stuck. This person is
belligerent. But I think we do
need to hold the line and say
we
re not going to change the
ordinance just to try to
appease you. So again, this is
an imperative, no vote. Thank
you. Thank you Doctor Newman,
thank you. Anyone else who
d
like to speak in opposition to
the applicant MAY come forward.
Please state your name for the
record. You have 3 minutes. Is
it true that if they lost the
case, that could be forced to
pay the fines. Yeah, absolutely.
Um, we have the right to
enforce fines and and require
them to pay. And if they lost
the case, yes, if we got an
order, if we got a judgment
from the court, they would have
to pay the fines, they didn
t
voluntarily pay the fine upon
demand, and we filed a lawsuit
and we prevailed, they would
have, they would have had to
pay the fines or we could
reduce it to judgment and place
a lien on the property. So it
wouldn
t cost the city. Because
if they do the wrong, if, if,
and I don
t think that any
court would ever. Think that
they are right. Yeah, we have,
well, you know, we do have
legal fees to Bring litigation.
That
s what we were talking
about earlier in the if, if
they lose the case, could you
not get those litigation fees
back of a statute in order for
a party to recover attorney
fees, there has to be a statute
that allows it. I
m not aware
of a statute that says just
because the city prevails, the,
the losing party has to pay the
city the cost. I
m not aware of
that statute. I think the
answer is no. Mhm ok, I was
told that you could, but I
m
not a lawyer, so I won
t fight
about that, but I think it
would be embarrassing to
Greenville if we don
t take
this to court because we would
be seen as Kowtowing to a
business that has come in and
really caused problems in our
community, and I
ve spent time
looking up what has happened
with them and other cities and
as council informant said
earlier, we need to look at who
we bring in our city. And
camping world is not a good
business because, um, as hat
wrappers, I was, we were just
looking at how many lawsuits
have been brought against them
from people who have had really
bad transactions. They
ve been
lied to, and I think if you
start out lying on your form,
then you continue that. And,
and I grew growing up, it was
always a big deal at school,
whoever was the one who took
care of the flag, you respected
that person and you respected
the flag, and this ordinance
that
s being proposed tonight
really does not meet flag code
because you
re supposed to have
a pole. That is 1/3 or 1/4. The
length Of I mean, the width of.
The flag, you must, it must be
only 1/3 or 1/4 the length of
the pole. We would need a 240
ft pole to properly accommodate
this flag and fly it accurately
when you have to have it half
staff. And that
s time? Ok.
Thank you. Thank you. All right.
Anyone else you
d like to speak
in opposition to the African
MAY come forward. Please state
your name for the record. You
have 3 minutes. See none public
hearing is now closed, open for
board discussion or a motion.
Scully. Thank you, Mayor. Um.
This debate is not about the
American flag. It
s about the
illegal actions of camping
world. This is an impossible
decision. If we pass the
amendment, and some people will
be happy, but we
re essentially
saying that if you have enough
money and influence, you don
t
have to follow the law. If we
deny it, some people will be
happy, but our staff will
probably have to sue Camping
World, taking time and money
away from more important work
like public safety and
affordable housing and other
things. Staff will also have to
deal with the hateful emails
and phone calls from across the
country because of the
nationwide media presence of
Camping World and its owner
have. So what do we do? After
much thought, prayer, research,
and listening to my fellow
citizens, I believe we need to
do what is right. We need to
uphold our laws and demand that
every citizen and business
follow the law. And when laws
need to be changed, we have a
democratic process that allows
for that change. Camping World
broke the law. They provided
false information on the
original building permit,
applying for a pole and flag
within the current size limits
knowing they would build a pole
twice as large as is allowed,
and then they sent us a text
amendment asking for 30 30 ft
poles of the 3,2003 33,200
square foot flagpoles. They
knew we could not pass it, and
that, and that, that would
allow them to smear a good name
all across social media and the
national news. It was a setup
and tended to create a
controversy that would get them
free national exposure, not
only for camping world but also
for the owner
s new show
getting ready to debut on Fox
News. It
s not about patriotism.
It
s about using our sacred
flag to create controversy and
division to gain more exposure
and ultimately to make more
money. I believe this is true
because they
ve done this all
over the country. If they had
followed the law and applied
for appropriate text amendment
before construction, we
probably would have passed it.
A good example is next door at
the Hilton Garden Inn. The
Hilton wanted a sign on the
hotel that was louder, larger
than the code allowed. They
applied for amendment allowing
for larger signs downtown and
we passed it unanimously. It
s
a great example of a business
respecting the laws of a
community that it
s joining.
Camping World has done nothing.
To work with us through this
process. If we pass this
amendment, they will still have
to pay the fines, apply for a
new permit, provide building
plans, and have it inspected by
city engineers. We have no
reason to believe that they
will do any of that and we
ll
more likely have to sue them to
pay the fines and to get access
to the site. My hope is that
our patriotism will not be
questioned. I sit here as a
servant of this community. As
do my colleagues. That
servanthood starts protecting
the citizens and following the
law. I am a patriot. I remember
the honor of hoisting the flag
when I was in middle school,
learning how to fold it
properly, how to raise it
quickly and proudly and how to
lower it in reverence. I
remember being taught how to
raise it all the way up before
lowering it back down to half
staff when our nation was in
mourning. I also remember the
honor of my family being given
a folded flag at the funerals
of both my grandfathers who
served in the military. I
m a
proud patriotic American and I
honor our great American flag
by upholding the laws and
democratic processes of our
community. I
d like to share a
few quotes from some of the
citizen emails I received.
We
re strongly opposed to a tax
amendment that would legalize
oversized American flag camping
world who knowingly and
flagrantly has not complied
with city laws on flag displays.
It
s a horrible precedent for
the city to then change
regulation and accommodate
businesses in violation.
Another one says the flag,
which is larger than the one
flown over the us Capitol is a
distraction to motorists. It
could not be lowered to half
staff in honor of important
Americans who have died. The
owner of Camping World
flagrantly violated the
existing ordinance and has
refused to pay the fines
imposed as a result of the
violation. This kind of
arrogance should not be
tolerated, let alone encouraged.
I know the city of Grimble have
more important issues to
address, but when we allow
people to violate ordinances
with impunity, we opened the
door for citizens to disregard
other regulations which would
lead to chaos. Another says
there are plenty of businesses
who are finding the American
flag across Greenville city
limits that are biding by the
rules set in place in camping
world should follow suit.
Another said the camping world
is not able to follow the
United States flag code. The
flag of the United States is
sacred and should be treated
with respect. In the us flag
code, it goes on to detail
about half staff status. The
Times when, when it should be
lowered to half staff. However,
Camping World was unable to
follow this because their flag
would be touching the ground,
which goes against Section 8.
Respect for the flag, which
states the flag should never
touch anything beneath it, such
as the ground, the floor, water,
and merchandise. On a side note,
respect the flag also states
that the us flag should not be
used for advertising. Another
says there was a period of time
when our business had to
relocate to another building in
Greenville and we had set up
flag banners to inform everyone
that we were open after just
moving. We were informed that
they could not, we could not
display those flags because
they were a distraction to
drivers on the road. Although
we disagreed with this, we
removed the flags. Being a part
of the community is respecting
the rules set in place by that
community. Another says
Patriotic behavior is
consistent with being a
law-abiding citizen and with
respect to established flag
etiquette, neither of which is
demonstrated by camping world
s
flag. Please do not disregard
any aspects of the existing
flag etiquette for the us flag
code to appease one business
and loud screams of a subset of
our residents. Another says,
I
m a law-abiding taxpaying
citizen of Greenville living
here for 50+ years, the
American flag is something I
hold in reverence. However, I
live in Lakewood Pines directly
across Evans Street from
Camping World, and the giant
illegal flag display. Since it
is brightly illuminated at
night, it looms over our
tallest trees, and when the
wind is blowing, I can hear the
very loud flapping of the
material, even from inside my
house with the windows closed.
I was offended when it was not
lowered to half-staff to show
respect for the passing of
PRESIDENT Carter. That flag is
not about patriotism, is it, it
is a marketing ploy. And
another one says, my father, a
native Dane, came to this
country and became a us citizen
after defeating the Nazis in
World War ii. His love for this
country and for the American
flag was palpable. He taught
his children to respect the
flag by folding it, by flying
it proudly every day, and
unless it was illuminated, it
was to be taken down at dusk.
Half-mast meant raising it
fully and then bringing it back
down to 5. Size also mattered
to display an incorrect size is
simply wrong. It is
disrespectful to flaunt the
stars and stripes in a boastful
manner. It
s vulgar at best. We
are not a boastful community
that encourages bypassing laws
that are put into place for a
reason. The only email I
received in support. Of The
ordinance, uh, amendment, the,
the text amendment, um,
included some really great
information about having
respect for the flag. Uh, and
one section said a symbol
deeply embedded with the values
of, of freedom and democracy.
Principles upon which the
United States was founded. It
signals the country
s
commitment to these ideals,
reminding citizens in the world
of America
s dedication to
upholding freedom and justice
for all. Whether displayed in a
school, a government building,
or a family home, the flag
continuously serves as a prompt
for reflection on these core
values and a call to uphold
them daily. And my comment on
that is freedom and democracy.
Are principles that must be
held simultaneously. We do not
have the freedom to do whatever
we want. We live in a democracy
of a nation of laws. We elect
officials to govern and to make
amendments to the laws when
necessary, but we don
t get to
pick and choose which laws we
follow. We think law is unjust
and we follow the democratic
process and get the law changed.
Camping World believes it is
above the law. And in closing,
George Washington wrote, if to
please the people, we offer
what we ourselves disapprove.
How can we afterward defend our
work. Let us raise a standard
to which the wise and the
honest can repair. The event is
in the hand of GOD. That
s to
say that if I prove something
tonight that I know is wrong.
Even to get this mess out of
the way, to move on to save
face, to save money. I, I, I
can
t defend that going forward.
I can
t look my fellow citizens
in the eye that I love and
respect and I
ve shared these,
you know, very impassioned
testimonies to me. I can
t look
at them. Anymore and and with
respect, I wouldn
t expect them
to respect me cause I
m, I
m
caving. And I just can
t handle
that. So I really appreciate
those words from George
Washington. Providing me with
the What I need to move on in
this moment. Um If to please
the people we offer what we
ourselves disapprove. How can
we afterward defend our work.
We cannot. I know that Camping
World has what Camping World
has done is wrong. They have
disrespected our community, and
they have disrespected the
American flag. And I cannot
have a vote to approve this
amendment. Councilmember
Blackburn. I, I call on you. Ok,
all right, ok. All right. Be
kind, um, I can hardly improve
on, uh, what council member
Scully has just, uh, shared
with us. Um, I do think though
that for the, for the record,
it is important to speak on
this because it is an extremely
important conversation and
we
ve faced an enormous amount
of pressure and, um, And
frankly, a lot of anger as well
as a lot of very good support.
So when I
ve looked at this, I,
I, I have to start with the
question. When someone breaks
the law. We throw our hands up
and say, oh well, I guess we
have to change the law for them.
If they wrap themselves up in a
flag when they break the law,
does that make it ok? If a
business comes to Greenville
and asks taxpayers to fund its
advertising campaign? Do we
pass the hat for them? And if
they lie on an official
government form, does that make
them patriotic? The issue
before us tonight is not about
our country
s flag. It concerns
respect for community
s laws.
Indeed, we must ask ourselves
what is patriotic? Is it
patriotic to lie on an official
government forum? To deceive a
community about your true
intentions. Is it patriotic to
bully, a modest local
government, us, whose goals are
simply to support a good
quality of life for our
citizens. Is it patriotic to
bitterly divide a community? Is
it patriotic to ask Greenville
taxpayers to fund your
marketing campaign. We must be
crystal clear. This problem did
not exist until Camping World
stirred up controversy. They
made the quiet, noble act of
flying a flag into a huge
marketing campaign. Hiding
behind the flag, this company
pushed its way forward,
attracting attention for itself
and forcing our city staff to
focus on its lawbreaking. Make
no mistake, that
s the request
here to force the good people
of Greenville to bend to
bullying. Do we not have more
important issues now? Do we not
have poverty, a lack of housing,
insufficient healthcare? Do we
not have children who need our
focus, who need food and safe
places to play. Safe
intersections and learning. Do
we not have elderly people
without caretakers? Do we not
have countless other priorities
right now. Indeed, those of us
sitting here. We only want to
focus on helping and supporting
our citizens. Providing clean
air, soil and water. Job
opportunities, safe streets and
safety in our homes. Genuine
economic development like the
hopeful industrial park we
toured on Tuesday. We welcomed
this business into our
community and what has it done
in return? Light on its
building permit application.
Place itself above all other
businesses in this community
who managed to flourish while
flying the flag according to
code. Refused to pay fines
currently totaling over $8000
and divided our community. So
the central issue is this, does
the city give a reward for
breaking the law? Do we change
our laws for illegal behavior?
Can you imagine the mayhem? If
we changed our laws for every
lawbreaker. And if that
lawbreaker hides behind the
flag, does it make it ok? Last,
safety has been addressed. The
flag poses a safety risk. We
ve
heard tonight how it poses a
light and noise risk. It
s
almost 3/4 the size of a
basketball court. In 130 ft
high, it
s 13 stories, which is
higher than anything else in
Greenville. It
s not been
inspected. Greenville is
central, as we know, to
hurricanes, tornadoes,
destructive winds and storms.
Can we risk a display of this
size so near two major traffic
corridors, neighborhoods, other
businesses and homes. And it
can
t be flown at half-mast is
how it has helped, as has been
discussed. Finally, from the
start, this company acted in
bad faith, lying on his
building permit application,
claiming it would comply with
city laws. And like council
member Scully described, I
ve
heard from many of you and
overwhelmingly. Overwhelmingly
You disagree with this text
amendment. At a very basic
level, I was elected to serve
the people. I was also elected
to, to listen to my own
conscience. Well, in this case,
they come together. Researching
this company, I learned that in
DECEMBER, Camping World will be
was required to pay the state
of Oregon $3.5 million to
settle a lawsuit involving a
multi-year consumer protection
investigation by the Oregon
Department of Justice. Under
the terms of the agreement, 3
million will be used to refund
customers who paid more than
the advertised price when
during negotiations, the
company would call back
discounted prices by double
charging them. So in conclusion,
we have 3 questions. What
action is best for our
community? We were elected to
serve the people of Greenville
and act in predictable ways,
upholding the law and
fulfilling the will of our
community. 2, what action
represents good policy. Our
ordinances are established for
the good of all in our city.
Changing policy in response to
one violation. Is wrong. And
finally, what action
demonstrates the values we
believe in. Removing this
oversized flag will show that
we honor and uphold the dignity
of our national symbol and obey
the rule of law. I cannot in
good, in good conscience
support this text amendment
that rewards bad faith actions,
illegal behavior, and
dishonoring our nation
s
highest symbol. Council Mayor
Wills. Thank you, Mayor. Um, I,
um, I really encouraged by the
civic engagement that I
ve seen
tonight and as um council
member Scully, um, was able to
reference the different emails
that we
ve received. Um, I
m
glad that you were able to give
voice to um what people MAY not
enlarge might have known about
in terms of those emails. Um,
so we are aware that on JANUARY
9th, that the council decided
to, um, Unanimously deny a
petition by Camping World and
so I want to give a little
context as to why then in
JANUARY there was a flip. So on
JANUARY 25th of this year as
the city council concluded our
annual planning retreat, we
were advised to go into closed
session. It wasn
t until we got
into closed session that we
learned one of the topics we
would be discussing was the
flag. There was great concern
about the desired city outcomes,
the legal ramifications and the
public perception. After about
an hour, an hour, y
all of um
discussion. I was left with
only one question. What do I
consider to be a win in this
situation. We as a council are
representation of the city and
our unity or the lack thereof
will permeate throughout our
city. So as a result, my
contribution to the discussion
was to yield to whatever
decision would bring peace. It
was advised that what would
bring peace would be to request
our staff to create a text
amendment to allow Camping
World to to fly their current
flag. Once we came out of
closed session, we took a vote
requesting this, requesting the
staff to, uh, draft that
amendment and bring it back to
us, which is why we
re here
tonight. Unfortunately, upon.
Leaving the planning retreat,
not even about 20 minutes after
taking that vote, I read on
social media a post that I felt
was a complete
misrepresentation of the
immense thought and
consideration that we as a
council put into making our
decision. It seemed to
undermine our purest intentions.
I felt as though while we
sought to be united on this
issue, perhaps we were united
around the wrong issue. Instead
of placating a known bully,
there
s that word again. I
ve
heard it a couple of times
tonight. Uh, instead of
placating a known bully, we and
allowing them to exploit our
city for profit, national media
attention, and it is, excuse me,
instead of placating a known
bully and allowing them to
exploit our city for profit and
national media attention. It is
my conviction that we should be
standing firm and united,
showing that we are smarter
than the tactic tactics that
seek to divide us. This issue,
as stated before, has never
been about the American flag.
If it were, I believe that
Camping World would abide by,
um, the flag code and its
standards. Our ordinances,
regulations, and policies
should stand in camping world
should abide by our standards.
Or face financial or legal
consequences. I also want to
note that Camping World can
still make this right. They can
take down the flag pole and the
flag that
s in violation and
replace it with what they
initially said they would
install via the permit. The
city could then inspect it, and
if all goes well, then they
would be in compliance with the
city policy. After all, bright
is still right and wrong is
still wrong. While I appreciate
our staff a hearing and
providing the council with our
request. It is my intention to
vote against the drafted
amendment and I
m glad to know
that I
m not the only one who
feels that way tonight. Thank
you, Mayor. Any other comments?
I
ll make mine. Um I didn
t
write anything. Um, I am not a
politician. I say that all the
time. Um, I
m a public servant,
and I
m a servant leader. Uh As
it relates to this issue, my
posture has not changed from
the beginning. So, uh, yes,
there have been several
conversations about Uh, camping
world and flag on different
dates. My posture. And my
comments have remained
consistent every time we
discussed it. Uh, even on
JANUARY 25th. There might have
been some flipping, but I
didn
t flip. I was standing 4.
Us to vote against the flag.
Even if I had to stand alone
because like. COUNCILWOMAN
Willis just said right is right
and wrong is wrong. Uh, we
definitely know that they were
dishonest. I
m not gonna repeat
everything, um, one of my
biggest concerns was safety.
The flag has not been inspected.
Um, and, Where it is located is
a major thoroughfare. And so
with the dynamics of our
community. If we were to have a
hurricane or a strong storm. I
was really concerned about if
the post um fail or. If the
flag came loose and went on
Evans Street and, you know, uh,
cover some cars or something
like that and cause a major
accident. Um, in addition to
that, If it were any one else.
Anywhere else in our city with
any other type of flag, I asked
our staff what would you do and
how would you respond? I don
t
feel like I got a completely
honest answer. I think in
certain parts of the city, if
the flag that size with a pole
that high had been put up, it
would have already been
bulldozed down. And the
so-called patriots that have
been um abusing people with
their rhetoric would have been
out there cheering them on with
megaphones while they bulldozed.
So there
s a lack of
consistency. When we have
expectations for what type of
laws we have in our city and
who are to uphold them. Uh, the
amount of money someone has in
their bank account should not
dictate that. So that was one
of the reasons that I again
consistently every time we
ve
had the conversation, have not
supported. This flag. Lastly,
there
s nothing about the flag
that is official. This is not
an official governmentaa. It
does not meet the standards of
an official government flag,
not based on our ordinances nor
based on the ordinances of a
larger flag that might be flown
on government buildings. In
addition to that, Um, it cannot
meet the requirements of What
our flags are supposed to meet
again, not gonna go through
everything that everyone else
has gone through, but we can
t
fly half staff. And so if it
doesn
t meet the standards and
it can
t meet the requirements,
we should not support it. Uh,
lastly. The bottom line is
there is a marketing ploy. We
have been used. To press
someone
s marketing efforts.
And we should not stand for
that. And we might not want to
spend tax dollars to uh take
this to court, but we sometimes
wanted, we
re ok with choosing
tax dollars to take other
things to court, uh, and I
m
not gonna call out any
particular situations, but
we
ve got situations in our
community where citizens have
felt wronged. Um, and so we
need to be consistent and we
also can find money when we
need to to support other things.
So we need to support our
values first. We need to set
standards for what we will and
will not accept in our
community. And what we will and
will not uphold in our
community. Uh, I did not
support it then. I did not
support it on any of those
other dates, I will not support
it tonight. We need to make
sure. That we
re making clear
what we will and will not
accept in our community that
doesn
t define us as patriots
or not because what defines us
as patriots is how we treat
each other. Not whether or not
we
re fine a
and what size
it is. That
s all I have to say.
Any of the comments? Yes. Mayor
for Tim Daniels. So, um, I must
say that I, I agree with what
everyone is saying. I do
believe that this is a ploy by
Camping World. I do believe.
That this has been done, um.
And it
s wrong. I do believe
that. But my decision is not
based on camping world. Um, I
have spoken with. In um,
council members and Um
Statesville I
ve done my
research. He
s been doing this
since 2014. It, it, I mean, it
just goes on and on and on.
California spent almost 2 years.
And then they stated they could
not afford to move any further.
Um, we ask the Our city staff.
To adjust the amendment or How,
how we want to say it, um, and
they did just that. They put
those hours and they put that
work in, and that is
appreciated. I, for one, am
going to vote for this
amendment, one for the safety
of our citizens. We need to get
to that pole to ensure that it
is safe for the citizens of
Greenville. And yes, this is a
a ploy tactic for this
gentleman, but I am good
conscience cannot ask taxpayers
to pay for it. They still,
they
ve not paid any fine. So
the only thing, only people
that are going to be paying are
us. They still owe Statesville
$14,000. They do not pay. And
yes, it MAY appear that we
re
giving in, but I just, there
are too many other things. That
we can do with. The needs of
our citizens and in Greenville.
Thank you. Robinson. The
difficulty With this between
council. And those in the
audience and those who MAY be
watching us online. Is that
unlike a speeding sign that was
an all, well, if, if you
re
speeding, we just raise the
speed limit. That
s a bad
comparison. Because this flag
is something that means so much
to so many people. And so for
everybody that
s spoken tonight
and come here and support to
not do it, there have been an
equal number probably online
who have said the same thing,
but there
s also just as many
people who say let it fly. Let
it fly. It
s beautiful. And I
think if you were to take a
tally, I think it would
probably be almost a
fifty-fifty split if we were to
read the comments of everybody
that has a viewpoint about this.
And that
s why because the flag
means so much to so many people
and, and I
ve had many like
this
can
t be fired at
half-mast if many of you heard
my comments when the manager,
uh, it was basically like a
cross-examination. You never
intended to do that. I
m upset
because I, I like the rule of
law. I like you to abide by the
rule of law. And the marking
ploy of this is a genius
because he divides communities
with something that
s so near
and dear to all of us, and
that
s the American flag. And,
and to many people, it
s very
near and dear. Those who
ve
served, and thank you for your
service. I have many good
friends that have served our
country, many who still serve
our country and that are very
hard about how you honor the
flag and the protocol that you
do it and how you don
t do it.
And I
ve had an equal number of
people who have come to me and
said it
s a beautiful flag. It
looks glorious as it flies in
the wind. Why don
t let it fly?
And see, that
s what divides
all of us. And that
s what
makes it difficult decision.
This is not like increasing the
speed limit or doing something
like that, that we all can
agree upon. We don
t raise
speed limits because you speed.
This is something that is very
near. And I think we
ve even
said if they had come to us in
JUNE of last year. This council
MAY have approved this type of
amendment. I
m not trying to
judge anybody on here, but it
would have been different but
they chose not to, because this
is their marketing ploy. They
want to keep this stirred up.
That
s their entire goal closes
the more more it keeps stirred
up, the more it keeps camping
rolled in the eye, and so you
get people complaining from all
over the country calling our
staff and making threats to
them about taking this, I mean,
and so we
ve had to deal with
that. So we have our staff
dealing with that. There
s a
number of people who want to
flag to fly it is. So we
re up
here like, what do we do? On
the one hand, it
s the rule of
law. And they violated it. On
the other hand, it
s a flag
that maybe people say should
fly regardless, the bigger the
better. So what do we do? Well,
One of the things we could do
is we could amend the flag
minute, they come to us, they
didn
t, and they gave some
ridiculous. Amendment language
that they knew we weren
t going
to pass. It was ridiculous and
they do that because that
s in
fact the exact ploy that they
do. It
s a game they play. And
so then they won a battle
because it keeps it stirred up.
And so at the end of the day,
if we deny this, what do we do
next? Do we sue them to remove
the flag because as, as council
member mayor Prote Daniel said,
it
s a safety issue. We can
t
get in there. I believe that if,
if it gets passed and we get in
there, they
ll let us inspect
it and they
ll pay the fines
because at that point we
ve
taken the air out of their
sails. They can no longer hide
behind the flag and say, oh,
Gloria, you
re trying to take
it down. The flag is there. And
now we
re saying you
re not,
you
re a bad person because
you
re not taking it down. And
that
s what makes this decision
so difficult for all of us. It
is, it
s probably the most
difficult decision I
ve been
involved in since I
ve been on
council and since I was on
planning and zoning, and it
s
the one decision I
ve seen
that
s divided our community in
half, if, if not almost to the
point of being 50/50 on both
sides. And, you know, on the
one hand, you want to abide by
the law, on the other hand, you
don
t be involved in litigation.
And when I give those calls,
that
s not some speculated high
number. That
s from 39 years of
doing litigation because that
s
what I do every single day. It
will be that, if not more, and
probably a year and a half or 2
years. And if we
re deny this,
that
s what we
re looking at.
And, and if we
re prepared to
go that route and the council
votes that way. That
s our,
because if you don
t pass it,
and what
s the next step? What
do we do? And I
m not through
yet. Oh, ok, I
m sorry. I
ll
let you know when I
m through.
And, and so do we file
litigation? And go against them
and you say yes until you start
realizing, I think you have a
lot of things we need to move
on and do other things. We
start taking taxpayer money and
funding it into a lawsuit. And
what one said they finally just
gave up, they couldn
t afford
to spend anymore. There are an
equal number of people that as
you shake your heads, no, shake
your head no, let
s don
t do a
lawsuit. And that
s what again
is making this difficult
decision because you
re in this
room, but you
re not the only
ones with an opinion. The rest
of our community have opinions
likewise, and I guarantee you
it
s about fifty-fifty from
what I
ve heard and I
ve read
just about every comment I
could try to read, whether it
was in favor or not in favor,
because when I first looked at
this thing, I was the one
asking this guy about the fraud
involved in it, about how they
didn
t fly at half-mast when
Jimmy Carter passed away and
how the, the flag should have
been. I
m the one that
s doing
all that. But now I
m looking
at it from a practical
standpoint, what do we do as a
city council next with our
revenues and how do we spend
our money and what do we do?
And again, unlike a speeding
light, uh, that everybody says
we can
t, we don
t change
speeding. This is something
that
s very different, and
that
s why it makes this
decision so difficult. And I
remember as a lawyer arguing in
front of the judges. It
s very
difficult to be the judge. It
s
easy to be the advocate for one
side or the other. If you
re
advocate for one side, you can
really advocate good. The other
side, you can advocate good,
but then we
re the judges now,
we have to make the decision,
which I want every one of you
in this room and all of those
watching, the decisions all of
us have to make are very
difficult. They
re not easy.
Not, I mean, very difficult. I
think everybody up here has,
has really had to think hard
about this, regardless of what
their position is and where
they come down. And so I want
everybody to know that it
s
been very difficult. And so at
the end of the day, what do we
do? I mean, really, what do we
do? Because if we don
t pass
this, Then the next step I
litigation. Or do nothing. And
so with those comments, I
ll
conclude. Thank you. I didn
t
mean to cut you off my back.
I
m just, no, I appreciate that.
That
s fine because I, I
actually had a legal question.
Ok, go ahead. I don
t want to
get into unauthorized practice
of law because I know about
that. But, um, and I
ve heard
of this, um, in, in being in
legal circles, and somebody
actually just texted it to me,
which is, um, under, um, I
think it
s, uh, unfair trade
practice, the uh unfair and
deceptive trade practices, you
get to treble your damages and
attorney fees. This is not
unfair to a trade. Well, again,
not an attorney, but I am. Ok.
Well, I
m, I
m I
m asking
actually gonna ask with with
respect, I
m gonna ask our city
attorney since he
s going to
speak for all of us, um. I know
that that in private litigation.
You can recover legal fees
under those circumstances and
treble damages. Um, so can you
address? And you MAY have
already answered this, so I
m
just kind of following up. If
we as a city prevailed in a
lawsuit. Would we be able to
recover our legal fees and
possibly treble damages, in
order to recover your legal
fees, you need a specific
statute that allows the city to
recover if it prevailed, and we
would need to research that
statue to see if that
s a
viable claim, unfair trade
practices in this context. You
know, they, I think the um We
don
t need to get into all this
in in public either, but we can
talk about that. But here, you
know, camping world, I think
would say. They
re displaying
the American flag, not for
commercial purposes or whatever,
they would say that they
re
Exercising their First
Amendment right to. Display the
flag, so, um, like other
businesses, theirs is just
larger, so, you know, that
would have to be researched.
That would be a novel. We have
to research that. Kind of an
inconclusive response at this
point. Thank you. I
m the only
one that hasn
t commented yet.
Um, uh, from the beginning,
I
ve always said that I thought
the flag is beautiful, um. I
enjoy going by it and seeing it
displayed every single day that
I go by there. Um I
wholeheartedly disagree with
the method of which. The
company went towards getting a
permit and filing a permit to
Erect a pole that was much
smaller than what was there in
a flag that was much smaller.
But ultimately I
ve, I
ve said
this publicly many times at the
end of the day, there
s some
fights that are worth fighting,
some that are not, and as
you
ve seen. Our community has
gone through a lot over the
last several months over a
discussion about an American
flag. I love the American flag.
I have people here that have
talked, we have veterans here
that have talked in favor and
against, I think would be, I
think, uh, the gentleman, MR.
Parker up here is, was against,
but I
ve had other veterans
that have reached out to me
through email, through phone
calls, through text messages
that are in favor of it. And
the fact that Um, we
ve been up
here and we
ve made it such a
divisive issue. And we
re just
going to prolong it and make
this go on and on for an
extended period of time. It
s
not good for our community.
I
ve said from the beginning
that we need to go ahead and
move forward with this. There
s
other issues in our community
that we need to be dealing with,
um, you
ve seen other
communities that are continuing
to fight it, Mayor Pro Tem
Daniels just a few minutes ago
was talking about another
community that has spent years.
Fighting something. And there
s,
there
s no reason for us as a
community to continue to do it.
Greenville
s an amazing city.
We all live here, we
ve seen
the expansion that
s taken
place. We
ve seen great
development that
s taken place.
Uh, we
ve seen new things that
have popped up throughout our
community. We
ve seen lots of
revitalization. We
ve seen new
projects that have taken place
over and over. And here we are
suspending months on end. On a
flag that is flying on one
commercial parcel. And you know,
I think the camping world
should have to pay all the
fines, but I think as a city we
directed the staff to come up
with an ordinance. Or excuse me,
a text amendment to change the
ordinance to be able to allow
the flag to fly, and here we
are. A month and a half later.
And everything that the city
staff put. Put together and and
presented to us. Is for nothing.
It
s for absolutely nothing. I
just, in my personal opinion. I
don
t, I don
t think it
s worth
continuing to fight it. I, I
think, uh, council member, uh,
Robinson and Mayor Prote
Daniels said it, said it best.
It
s time to move on. I mean, I
feel like it
s time to move on.
It
s time to go and fight a
fight that
s worth fighting, um,
we
re all Americans, every
single one of us that
s in this
in this room. Um It
s time for
us to go ahead and put this
behind us and by us going up
here and prolonging this and
just wanting to fight and punch
a bully. What are we gonna win?
Cause as soon as you, as soon
as you leave, Something
s gonna
be on x, right? Something
s
gonna be on social media.
Something
s gonna be on there
talking about how the city of
Greenville told us that we had
to take our flag down. Are they
gonna read any of the comments
that were made up here?
Absolutely not. They
re gonna
read any of those comments.
What they
re gonna do is
they
re gonna go ahead and
display Greenville as an
unpatriotic city, and we
re
gonna continue this for months
on end and we
re gonna continue
to get emails, phone calls,
we
re gonna get social media
posts about how we
re a
terrible city and every one of
us in this room knows that
we
re not a terrible city.
We
re an incredible city. We
ve
got great people here. We
ve
got great staff that
s here.
That takes care of us on a
daily basis, so and my, my
personal opinion, I just, I
don
t, I don
t agree with some
of my colleagues up here about
going forward and denying this
request, I think it
s time for
us to move on as a community.
That
s all I got. I
d like to
make a motion to deny. All
right, motion
s been made by
Council member Willis, seconded
by Council member Scully. Any
other discussion. All those in
favor please raise your hand.
All those opposed, please raise
your hand. Just, and just for
the record, I don
t get a vote,
but I would be against this
motion. Ok. Motion to deny um
passes, 4 to 2. So now that
it
s denied, I think it
s
incumbent on us as a council to
provide our city staff with
direction on what direction
we
re supposed to go. Mayor. I
would inform the council you
have the right to go into
closed session. For
attorney-client privilege on
this evening or another another
date you. Do we have to go into?
You don
t have to, but you have
a right to. And we might want
to do that, I think it would be
ok if we did it out here
because I think there was some.
Understanding that things were
said in Coo
s session that the
public didn
t get to see. I
think we should talk about it
out here in open session so
everybody can see. And if I MAY,
I think we
ve had a long
meeting. We
ve had a lot of
conversation earlier when we
were uh voting on an issue,
there was a desire to have more
information, I think. I am not
prepared tonight in closed or
open session to talk about our
next steps. I need more
information and let me say I
appreciate council members,
Robinson, Mayor Proin Daniels,
and our mayor for saying we
need to move on. I also want to
move on. I want to move on in a
dignified, correct way. So
before I can think of any next
steps I need more time. I need
more information. We need to
explore things like is it.
Feasible to to sue, uh, could
we recoup legal fees? And I MAY
come back here in 1 month, 2
months. I don
t, I don
t mind
changing my vote and saying,
you know what, we explored this
and now I
ve changed my mind.
We just don
t have any other
way. But I think for now, I
need more information before I
can. Have any conversation
about next steps. I mean, I
guess I would ask what type of
information is needed? We
ve
had a month and a half since we
made the decision and asked the
staff to come forward with a
ordinate a text amendment for
the ordinance. And we gave them
completely the wrong.
Impression on it because we
completely flipped and so as a
council, we need to provide
them with some some clear
guidelines on what we
re asking
them to do and at this point
you
ve got a business that
s
not in compliance with their
permit. And we
re not willing
to make a decision as a council
to determine what we do next.
We have a meeting on MARCH 24th,
am I right? Monday. I would
like to suggest, I know we all
kind of want to move on, but I,
I think tonight is maybe not
the night for to discuss this
in closed or open session. I
suggest that at our uh uh after
our MARCH 24th session. Uh, a
meeting that we go into closed
session. And have this
conversation regarding the
legal issues. And then And I
just like to say I wasn
t, I
m
sorry, um, go ahead. My vote
wasn
t based on just moving on.
At all. It was based on the
safety and the ability to get
to the pole and not wanting. If
we do litigation for it to be
on the backs of people, not
just forget it all and move on,
that
s, that
s not my intent at
all. Don
t I say that. Yeah, no,
and I didn
t interpret it that
way, but I think you made a
valid point, which is, yes, we,
we, we, we, we will need to
move on and, I just need more
information. Can we give the
staff some directions so they
know, so they can prepare for
the 24th, but we
re what our
expectation is and what you
wanna know. I would, I would, I
mean, I feel like that
s
something that we owe them I
m
gonna, I won
t speak on behalf
of the, the legal aspect of
this, and I
ll let the attorney
do that, but I would just ask
you, you know, let, let us, let
us know, do you want it at the
workshop? Do you want the
council meeting? Do you want a
closed session, that way we can,
that staff can plan accordingly.
Um, clearly, I mean, I have the
opinion that, I mean, again,
I
m not your lawyer, but I had
an opinion if you
re gonna talk
legality and, and, and, and
future litigation, you should
seek. The the guidance of your
attorney and client attorney.
Privileged information in a
closed session, but that
s
y
all, y
all get excited. Uh,
my opinion on that is if we um
are going to do, I, I prefer
open session because last time
we discussed it in closed
session, and again, to
reiterate, COUNCILWOMAN Willis
when we came out. Um, what was
discussed in closed session was
misrepresented. Um, so either
if if we
re gonna do something
in closed session, then it
needs to stay closed and that
s
everyone
s mouth stays closed.
Um, if we
re going to discuss
the in open session, then we
re
completely transparent. So, um,
You know, I would, I feel. I
m
disappointed because I know
that my stance was completely
misrepresented the last time.
Um, because again, I have
consistently been against the
Uh, flag. Being, um, Raised in
uh uh Evans Street since the
beginning and I
m completely
exhausted with this
conversation right now, um,
there are probably a few things
that I care about least, to be
honest with everyone that
s
watching because we got people
in our community homeless and
hungry right now. Amen. Right
and so, uh, in each meeting I
have repeated that statement.
That We have more important
things and uh that was not
something that that was on the
top of my list of priorities
because there are people in the
community that need to be
served. So, um. If we are gonna
do closed session, then it is
closed session. We
re not
trying to use it to politically
navigate whoever our we
consider our constituents to be
that we are, we
re having this
conversation and we
re
determining as a council how
we
re gonna move forward. Um,
for me, it
s going to be
against, it was against the
first night, it
s gonna be
against the last night. And I
appreciate, oh, I
m sorry, I
appreciate transparency, but i
also know that there
s value to
attorney-client privilege, and
there
s a reason you do those
things in closed session. It
s
not to conceal things from the
public. It
s that you have to
have a discussion about your
legal obligations and legal
consequences. So I would say we
need to have that initial
conversation in closed session.
Of course, whatever action we
take comes out. In open session
But if we want to do that close
session on the 24th. I
m here
for it and my question as far
as asking staff what additional
information we need, I
d say
let
s do a deep dive. On, um
You know, uh, well. What are
the, the possible next steps.
Um, and how have they, how,
how
s that happen and uh how
s
that kind of concluded in other
communities, um, how is North
Carolina law different? Uh, can
we recoup legal fees? Um
precedent, just your basic
legal information. You know, as,
as the board
s counsel, I would
advise the council to go into
closed session. There
s a
reason for that. It
s
confidentiality strategy and um
we
ve disposed of this item and
I exactly that we talk, it
doesn
t sound like council has
the appetite to do that tonight
and we can do that. A future
meeting, that
s what I would
advise counsel. So moved. For,
for what? To go into closed
session. We
re going to closed
session right now at a future
meeting. Can we just add that
to the agenda and that we need
to. I don
t, I don
t think you
need a motion to do that, but
yeah. So. Ok. I just want to
add to the um. My appreciation
for city staff, and I do not
believe this has been a waste
of time. Um, they worked really
hard and we didn
t pass it, but
a month and a half has gone by.
It
s given our community time
to discuss this and to form
their own opinions and to share
those opinions with us. Uh, our
pnz board are, um, voted this
down, and we have to, we don
t
need to follow their advice,
but we need to listen to it and,
and appreciate it and respect
it, um. And it
s given us all
time to, to really consider the
facts. It
s also giving camping
word an opportunity to do the
right thing, to communicate
with us in any way, and they
have not. They paid the 1st 2
fines, and they haven
t done
anything since then. They have
not communicated one bit with
us, so a month and a half, uh,
gave them the opportunity to
also do the right thing, and
they did not. So I don
t think
this has been a waste of time.
It
s not been a waste of city
staff
s energy. I just want to
share my appreciation for all
of you, um, for the hard work
you do, um, and for. You know,
serving this community well so
thank you very much. See
manager
s report. Uh, just to
reiterate, we do have a meeting
on the MARCH 24th. We normally
do not have that 3rd meeting,
but we will have a workshop
starting at 4. And then we will
go straight into the meeting at
6 o
clock. Um Oh, I
m sorry.
Can we go back a little bit. I
know some of the um
constituents Acts about a
workshop regarding. Trees and
things like that. What would
that? Entail putting that in
place. I will, I will talk to
staff, yes every, I mean, some
of you might know, we have, um,
we
ve been working on the udo
and the tree, uh, tree aspect
of that has been a vital part
of that. So I would suspect
that when we get in, in, in the
next several months to talk
about the udo that will be
brought up, sorry for the
interruption. All right, there
you go. Good. Council Mayor
Foreman. No more comments. All
right. COUNCILMAN Blackburn. I
just would like to, to end on a
positive note on Tuesday, we
had a, we took a bus, took 2
buses to look at a possible, uh,
industrial park. And, um,
although our consultants, uh, a
large group of people, probably
50 to 75 people that gathered
for that, including, uh,
professional engineers and
consultants and, um, the city
council met with the, uh,
county commissioners and just
what a great opportunity that
was. And although they were not
supposed to say so. I
definitely got the feeling that
Greenville site was. If not the
top site. Ok, I got the feeling
we were really in a good place.
That our site looks so
promising for so many reasons,
and it
s, um, something that we
talk about acting with
transparency. We
re trying to
let everyone know what the
plans are, what it could be,
how it
s gonna unfold. We
re
trying to involve anybody,
every, everybody, but really
this is something that could be
just a tremendous opportunity
for our, our community, and I
just want to thank our city
staff who I know spent
countless hours preparing this
proposal and just what a, what
a really positive day that was.
And so thank you. And that
s it.
All right. COUNCILMAN Willis.
Uh, thank you, Mayor. I
m so
happy women
s History Month to
all of the women who contribute
to our society and our
communities every um every day.
Um, I know we had some employee
appreciation activities and um
different things to love on our
employees with food trucks and
whatnot this month and last
week and so, uh, we just
appreciate all of the work that
our staff and employees do on a
daily basis. I also want to
brag on two initiatives going
on in the city that are really
exciting. So the in good
company Citizens Academy has
completed 3 sessions so far, so
excited um that there are about
25 participants with that. The
first session they talked about
the city manager
s office, the
clerk
s office, and the city
attorney
s office. The second
session they had a chance to
learn about fire and rescue and
the police department, and then
just last night they learned
all about public works, so it
s
been a really cool experience
and um really exciting program
that they
re involved in. And
then also our small business
technical assistance program,
so a little update about that,
um, that was uh approved by
council last year. They are
about halfway done with their
cohort. This is about a dozen
small businesses that are
getting some very needed one on
one attention that they might
not have otherwise gotten
without this initiative through
the city, um, led by Monday
Solutions, um, Monday Solutions
is a consulting group that
empowers leaders and businesses
to not feel overwhelmed and
feel good about Monday again.
So these businesses um have
completed their 6th coaching
sessions, and they
ve done 21
on one coaching sessions. Like
how many small businesses do
you know get that type of
attention. Um, money Solutions
has helped them establish a web
presence for some businesses
that didn
t previously have one.
And they
ve assisted in
establishing financial
structures for these businesses.
Record keeping and establishing
budget practices. So that
s um
the great work that
s being
done, initiated by the city
through Money Solutions, um,
each and every month on an
ongoing basis and then as
council member, Blackburn says
we had a joint county
commissioners and city council
meeting, um, this week, and I
would love to see that happen
maybe biannually, MR. C Manager,
so we need more of that. We
enjoyed that and um there was a
lot to glean from it, so thank
you, thank you, Mayor. Council
member Scully. Thank you, Mayor.
Uh Happy Women
s History Month.
My girl dad, so I take every
opportunity to lift up women
and celebrate women. Got 3
daughters, um, so proud of them.
Um, and so happy that we live
in this time where they have
every opportunity that they
have to, to pursue their dreams
and to do great things in their
lives, and that
s all been paid
for by, uh, women who
ve come
before us, uh, and done great
things in this country and
around the world, uh, to
improve the lives of women and
to give them the opportunities
they have today. So Happy
Women
s History Month. And, uh,
go girls. Um, And another thing
I got a great opportunity to
serve uh Meals on Wheels this
week over at the, um, Pitt
County Council on Aging. Um,
it
s a really wonderful thing
to do. It was easy, took about
an hour. It was super well
organized. They had a hot box
with some hot food, a cooler
with milks and a bag of cake
and bread, uh, and they had a,
a little tablet that I took
with me that showed me exactly
where to go, what order to
deliver in, so it
s most
efficient. It was really fun. I
got to interact with some of
our citizens that need visiting,
need food. Um, and I also
learned about some really great
information from the manager of
the Pitt County Council on
Aging, um, told me about the
services that they offer that
the people that they serve
their average income is about,
I think you said $9700 a year,
a year, um, uh, poverty level,
I think he said it was 120 to
$13,000 a year, so well below
the poverty level. Um, these
are individuals that can
t get
out of their homes, they can
t
drive, they MAY be too sick to
do those things or too old to
do those things, so they need.
Not just the nutrition, but
they need the visit, the smile,
the hey, how are you doing
today? Are you ok? Anything
else I can get for you? Have a
great day. Uh, I talked to one
woman who was like nervous
about going to the grocery
store. She hadn
t been in the
grocery store in 2 years. She
was thinking about going that
day. I was like, you can do it,
go to the grocery store. Um, so
just as interactions I had with
them were so pleasant for me,
and I know that it really
brightened their day, um, and
they really need support over
at the Pitt County Council on
Aging. Um, they serve about 400
people a day, and they have
about 100 people on their
waiting list. Um, but they
don
t just need money, they
need money and volunteers, uh,
because they need the, the
money to pay for the food, the,
the stuff to deliver the food,
but they also need people to
come and help deliver it. Um,
So please consider making a a
monetary donation, uh, making a
contribution of your time and
energy, uh, get over there and
help out. Like I said, it took
an hour. It was really
wonderful, pleasant thing to do,
and I hope all, uh, take
advantage of that opportunity,
uh, and help out our community
and really important impactful
way. So thank you, Mayor. Thank
you. Council member Robinson. I
want to echo what counts from
Black said and COUNCILMAN
Willis. The mega site is a game
changer for the north side of
the river. It, it
s going to be
wonderful. It
s down the road,
obviously, but. I believe the
gentleman said it was
definitely his favorite site
and I kind of read that as in
into the mix and it was
probably the number one site in
the state. But it
s a game
changer for the north side of
the river all the way out, in
my opinion, it
ll ripple out to
Bethel and beyond and bring
everything to the north side of
the river has really been
looking for because again, if
we look at the development of
East, South, North, and west.
Um, north side river really
needs some attention. This
megasitis, I really think the
grand slam home run that is
gonna need, so I hope we
continue to pursue that and,
and aggressively, it certainly
will happen in the next couple
of years in terms of
development, but looking at it
down the road and know that we
were beginning to get the
genesis of that program, it
s
going to truly be a game
changer and if you don
t know
much about it, please get
involved. As the city and. Let
them show you the slides and
the information that talk about
the mega site and actually
right out there. It
s, it
s,
it
s gonna be a showpiece and a,
and a true game changer. Uh,
number 2, On JANUARY 24th to
JANUARY the 26th, the beast of
the east was scheduled to come
here and bring in. Uh, 6
different states. Almost 1800
players with about 3000 parents.
Uh, last year when they came,
they brought in almost $900,000
into our community over a
three-day tournament.
Unfortunately, Had to send back
$55,000 of the, of the
tournament money. Because the
fields were covered by snow.
Why do I bring that up? My
favorite topic, as you well
know, is a sports complex. Had
we had Artificial fields and a
sports complex. Not only could
they have had 110 teams, they
probably would have had well
over 200. Those of you watching
and those out in the audience,
the beast of the East and the
soccer tournament that
s been
going on for over, I think 20
years that involves youth from
all over our county. They have
built it up to 110 teams, but
that
s kind of the limit
because they can
t get any more
fields and so it was hard
pressed to send back that
$55,000 but more importantly,
it was hard pressed not to see
almost 5000 players and their
family members, that
s not
including other people that
might come in and watch this
tournament that were turned
away because of our weather,
and I get it, snow turns away a
lot of people, but have we had
artificial turf that that would
have been probably over 200
teams and probably over a
million dollars in our economy
over 3 days. So that
s why I
pushed that out there. They
reached out to me and I said,
please share the numbers and
again, came from North Carolina,
would have come to North
Carolina, Virginia, South
Carolina, Georgia, West
Virginia, and New Jersey that
far away to come play soccer.
Next, my mother
s birthday was
MARCH 11th. She would have been
97 years old, which is a
historical day. I
ll always
remember it, but This is
something I really want to brag
about. I know Mayor, you
re
gonna like this. On MARCH 11th,
Parker Bird became the first
collegiate athlete to get an
rbi run batted in as an amputee.
What an amazing compliment,
that young man. About 2 years
ago now was, I mean, he was
highly recruited, one of the
best in the country in a
boating accident, lost his leg
below his knee. A lot of people
would consider him dumb. Parker
said, no, I
m not done. I
m
just beginning. And so his goal
was to get back and play
collegiate baseball as an
amputee. He batted once. And
that was a record. But on MARCH
11th, he took the bat. A and as
a result a run was batted in,
and he was the first in
collegiate career. This young
man has a testament to you can
still do it no matter what if
you have enough drive. So
Parker, if you
re watching my
friend, congratulations to you
and your family. You keep that
spirit up because he is a, a
message to many people who have
disabilities that anything is
possible if you want it bad
enough. So again,
congratulations to Parker.
Congratulations finally to our
two employees who retired.
Thank you for your service. And
also again, the testament to
our EMTs for setting yet again
another life. I don
t think it
was about this time last year.
When the gentleman, uh, we
recognized over in Wilson who
saved a life over there if you
recall. So this again is a
testament to our EMTs and the
quality of service they provide,
because, but for that. Young
person would not be here
tonight, so that
s a testament
to GOD
s will and also good
medical service. So with that
mayor, I say one more thing, I
appreciate everybody. Coming
out and hearing your voices. I
MAY not always agree with what
everybody says and how you and
I know that and I say that
because, you know, but I, I
respect their right to come out
and, and tell us your opinions
because that
s what we
re
supposed to hear, so please
don
t ever think that any of us
out here don
t think you should
come down. I encourage people
to come down, let your voices
be heard by us, not only
presently online and those
watching on tv, email us, uh,
because that
s extremely
important for us, particularly
in very difficult situation.
And so I hope all of you
understand that, but please
continue to come out and
whether we think you think we
agree with your opinion or not
or individually agree with you
or not, please don
t let that
discourage you from reaching
out to us on other topics
because this is one issue that
lots of others to come down the
road to my council members,
thank y
all for weighing such a
heavy issue because this is
weight heavy on all of us. I
know in our staff, so I respect
all of your decisions, even if
I don
t necessarily agree with
him. I respect every one of
them and know we, we
ve got to
move forward and keep moving to
keep our city. A lot Growing
Mayor, thank you. I appreciate
you letting me comment. Ok.
It
s almost 10 o
clock. Oh, you
wait till it gets to me to say
that, um. I got a lot to say.
No, I
m joking. Happy Woman
s
Month. Um, to all the women who
have paved the way and who
continue to do so, we will the
city of Greenville. We
ve had
some videos on our website to
celebrate women with businesses,
and we
ll also be having
empower her, celebrating women
in business. On MARCH 20th from
6 to 9 P.M. At Coastal fog.
Come out let
s celebrate the
women in our lives, the women
in small businesses and
businesses that keep Greenville
growing. And it is also social
worker appreciation Month, so
don
t forget to thank a social
worker or take her out for
coffee, whichever one y
all
like to do, um, yeah. That
works very well for me. Um, and
I would also, I know. I told
them the other day I stood in
for you. And I said, you know,
for the first time I
m gonna
say I
m glad the mayor
s not
here because I had an
opportunity to attend the
service award ceremony for our
staff. Thank you all for all
the hard work that you do every
single day. Um, it is
appreciated and it is valued.
And speaking of which, I know
we all know that our chief Ted
Sas is retiring soon. He
doesn
t want to go y
all, but
he
s he
s retiring, um. And I
want to publicly thank you for
the work that you have done. We,
I know we have some
appreciations coming forth and
things like that, but I just
want to publicly thank you for
all the long hours and
dedication that you have put
into being the chief of police.
You
re here. Thank you, Mayor.
I know he don
t wear a uniform
no more now I
ll be quick. All
I gotta say is I wanna
congratulate um my daughter
s
travel ball team, um, who I
m
fortunate enough to, to be one
of the coaches, um, last year
at this time, we were we were
terrible, um, I think the first
tournament, I think we went 0
and 3. And, um, this tournament,
we went 4-0 and we won the gold
bracket. We brought on the
championship, so, uh, it
s
amazing what one year, uh,
we
ll do for a team, but I will
say that I think it
s. The, the
whole idea and the concept of.
How important it is to invest
time and energy into young
children and to get them to
grow, um, in multiple different
ways. It doesn
t have to be
through sports, it could be
through education, it could be
through anything, teaching them
something to get them to grow,
but it
s incredibly gratifying
as a an adult to be able to see
those girls go out there and
compete at a high level, and so
I want to say congratulates,
congratulations to them on
their hard work. We
ve got many
tournaments, but I
ll piggyback
off of what council member
Robinson said, I spent a lot of
money up in Nashville, North
Carolina. This last weekend, my
wife wanted to go out and spend
some money and when we went
shopping. She finds a boutique
anywhere in this world and we
spent a bunch of money at the
boutique. We spent money at
restaurants and it was not in
Greenville or Pitt County, and
I think that it
s important for
us to understand how much
commerce takes place, my next
tournament, I think is in
Kinston. I think we
ve got one
in Redo. We
ve got one in Rocky
Mount. But not here in
Greenville, right? And I think
that, uh, if you had a chance
to ask all the different teams
that were around, uh, that we
play against if they want to go
to Red Oak, no offense, Red Oak,
um, or Greenville, I think they
pick Greenville every single
time, so, um, I think it
s
important for us to understand
that there
s a tremendous
amount of commerce that goes
along with that, so. With that,
I need a motion to adjourn. Our
motion by Council member
Robinson, seconded by
Councillor Blackburn. All those