Uh, Mr. Mayor, we need to announce that
since Mr. Powers is here, life can go
on.
He's
actually
>> All right. Good evening everybody. It is
» All right. Good evening everybody. It is
6:32. We'll go ahead and get this
started. Um I'm going to let Fris uh do
some opening remarks since uh many of
y'all are just meeting him for the first
time so he can kind of just give himself
an introduction and then uh Mr. Hollow
will take it over.
looking around the room. Uh I think I've
met most of you. My name is Fabric
Cababona. I have the pleasure of serving
as city manager. Third day on the job
now. Um so it's certainly a pleasure to
be here among you and be able to serve
this community. Um like to take this
opportunity to just thank city council
for the opportunity for entrusting me
with this responsibility and I look
forward to uh working with each each and
every one of you. If you have any
questions, if you need to visit with me,
please uh feel free to come see me.
>> Thank you.
» Thank you.
>> Thanks, sir. Mr.
» So,
Freeze is the one that asked me to kind
of do this. So, apparently he uh learned
to be just as bossy as Bev. So, that's
why we're uh here tonight. But I was
kind of asked to give um a little and
some of y'all have probably already had
this at least on counsel with your oh
for reason I go way back so it's okay.
Um during the uh first 90 days that you
take counsel you're supposed to take the
the seminar. Well th this is a certified
presentation that I got from the AG.
They certified on it. It's a little bit
it's a little bit uh dated. It's from I
think maybe 21 or 22, but I've updated
spent the last couple days kind of
updating it on some some of the lot like
the agenda postings for example. Um I
think I caught most of them, but maybe
not. But it's it's pretty much up to
date. So, what I'm going to do is just
kind of go through generally speaking
the um the Open Meetings Act, what it
is, what it's for, um what are some some
tricks and traps about the Open Meetings
Act because there there can be um you
know, the law is is easy to write and
it's easy to read at times, but it's not
always easy to implement. That's why we
have case law because sometimes it's
difficult to implement the case law. And
I don't know that I've met every one of
y'all, but I am Michael Alla, the city
attorney. Um, and so it's nice to meet
the gentleman from the PND that I
haven't met. Um, and so at any time
y'all have questions, just really just
say, "Hey, interrupt. It's not a
problem." Just say, "Hey, got a
question." And that's what we'll take
and and uh I'm happy to answer that. So,
uh, number two there, Angela.
Yeah. just make sure Angel's awake. So,
I'll just call out the numbers. So, this
is kind of what we're going to do, who
it applies to, you know, what's a
quorum, you know, what what is like a
meeting and so all that kind of stuff
because there are are again um they give
you a definition, but sometimes how it
plays out, you may or may not realize it
because there's a lot in the law that
you can step into unintentionally. Now,
that used to protect you a lot. You had
to be knowingly in violation of the Open
Meetings Act. Um, but now they change.
It's still a class B misdemeanor, which
is, you know, up to six months in in
jail. $2,000 fine. That's the max. Uh,
but it is now they've taken out that
knowledge requirement. It is if you do
it and it's a quorum and you're doing it
without the That's it. You're Now,
here's the thing, too. from a I always
like to give some practical aspect to
whenever I make presentations and not
just go and let y'all think that's what
happens in real life because y'all from
this particular council um they're all
always asking questions as a whole uh
some more so than others not singling
out Mr. powers or anything, but this
particular council always asks questions
and they want to know. But I also want
to provide you some practical
application. As y'all are aware, because
you're alive for more than five minutes,
life is full of politics. DAS do not
like to get involved in he said, she
said, oh, they violated the open
meetings act. they they might dip their
toe in the in the water to look like
they're doing this or whatnot, but the
typical general normal average DA does
not like to get involved in this. So,
what I want to say is if you're sitting
there and you feel like, "Oh crap, I
think I may have done it. I didn't mean
to do it." I don't want you to worry.
Now, on the other hand, I have to
balance that. I don't want you to go,
"Well, DA's not going to give crap. Why
Why should I?" No. No. that's not
you've got series of violations over
time that could be an issue. So, I'm
going to try and drop in some practical
application of all of this stuff as well
as just telling you, okay, this is what
it is and this is what it means. And
again, if y'all need some of that
practical application, hey, got a
question? Hey, got a comment? Hey, got a
hypothetical, whatever, just ask me.
Three, please.
Okay. So, it's been around as you can
see. I mean, I'm not going to
necessarily read it, but it's really
important to look at uh Cornin wasn't
too bad for a guy that started out as a
little bit of a liberal DA down in
Austin. I don't think he's he's too bad
of a guy. He has led us some some good
things. I I really want to stress
the general rule because everything that
we're going to talk about today
falls under that umbrella. And it is
very important to remember just in the
PIA there's some carryover.
Everything is public knowledge.
Everything should be available to the
public. The reason that we can go into
executive session there are exceptions
to that general rule. Sometimes people
forget about the general rule and they
just quickly run into executive session.
I'm like, okay, remember the general
rule is everything's got to be public.
You have to find the exception to go.
You can't just go in exact session
because you feel like it. Okay. So,
that's what I'm trying to stress about.
PIA is the same thing. The general rule
is every single bit of piece of
information that is possessed by the
city
that is open to the public. That is open
to the public. Now, I have been saying
for a number of years that there are
some cities out there with
administrators, and this is a good good
for so at least knows how I feel about
it, that I'll give you a great example.
A few years ago, a council member um not
that council members ever want to know
more than they need to know, but this
particular council member wanted to know
all of the police vehicles. Like, I need
I I need to know where they are, what
their number like, but okay. Why they
need to know? Doesn't matter. Okay. I
said, "Look, y'all need to give this
council member that information. Just
they're they're elected by the people.
They have more of a right to that
information than anybody that works at
city hall than any employee because
they're the only six people in y'all's
case, seven only people that were
elected by the public." I said, "You I
don't care that we've got some
undercover vehicle." Now, maybe go to
that council member and explain to them
the situation and say, "Hey, you know
what? Maybe that's not a good idea that
we don't want to let that out there."
yada yada yada. But I'm not going to sit
there and say that you can keep that
from a council member. Now, the
legislature finally caught up with me. I
think it was House Bill 48041 maybe
something. It's entitled special right
of access. So now they have codified um
specifically that members of the
governing body have a special right of
access to any and all information. Now I
that doesn't always make me popular with
staff but that's something I've been
saying for years because I look at the
general the way the law is phrased the
big umbrella and then apply logic which
that is probably part of my problem when
I'm talking with some people but I take
that big umbrella and I apply the logic
and I'm like well wait a minute they're
the only people elected
by the people they should be able to see
what are they they're also making all
the decisions that affect the city
because even though you Mr. city
administrator, uh you fire chief, police
chief, you know, whatever y'all are
making decision, it is because they have
given you direction to do that. You're
carrying out you're the executive uh
function branch carrying out the what
has been directed to you by the
legislature. So that's I want to stress
and make sure that we all understand the
big overarching umbrella that we're
dealing with when you're talking about
the open meetings act. Again, also the
PIA. Uh, Angela, please don't take it as
insulting. I'm just going to call out
numbers when I'm ready to go to the next
one. Is that okay? Uh, yes. Because
Angela is wonderfully terrific and also
scares me a little bit. Four.
All right.
Who is subject to the Open Meetings Act?
Anybody want to venture a guess?
» Yes. The guy who wears the hat with a
Boy Scout troop that has a football
team. Yes, that is right. the the public
officials are the ones subject to the
open meetings act. No one else can be uh
is subject to it because they have been
elected by people. They're not they're
not appointed by the PNZ. Now, here's
what's interesting. If a city wants to,
and I never advise this, but a if you've
got a board that is purely advisory, not
and I I don't think P&Z falls because I
think y'all are quasi um you know,
legislative in a sense because y'all
have more of a specific statutory role
than a lot of other places, but purely
advisory doesn't technically have to
follow the Open Meetings Act. Now,
I think it's terrible policy. I think
the policy should be everybody that we
got. We file the open meetings act. But
my role is I treat my clients, the
councils, the PNZ as adults. I know of
other city attorneys, give you a great
example, and we'll get into this. I
think individual council members and
they and they do what they want.
Horrible idea to talk to developers.
Horrible idea. The mayor's a little
different because that role is a little
unique. terrible, but it's not against
the law. It's not improper. I know city
attorneys that because they see the
difficulties and the ramifications and
and potential negative consequences that
come from that, they have actually told
clients it's against the law and they
can't do it. I know that because some of
these council members from other cities
have called me and asked me if that's
the truth. So, my goal and what I will
do is I'm going to tell you what the law
is. Now, well, I'm going to tell you
it's a bad idea to do this or that in my
opinion, but I'm not going to to tell
you something to make my job easier or
to keep everybody safe. I want y'all to
be aware what the law is and know what
you're getting yourselves into and then
y'all make the decisions. So, uh, five,
please.
Um, I do not remember color coding
those. Um, but okay. But anyway, what
what is a governmental body? So we've
got a definition in 5513.
All these things can be considered um uh
governmental bodies. Now the boards and
commissions
not governmental bodies. Does anybody
know why that is?
Who who do what exactly? Yes. They're
appointed. So and they can come and go
at the pleasure of the city council. So
it's important to understand who is and
who is not. Now, I believe that our
ordinances require all of our boards and
commissions to follow the open meetings
act. I'd have to go back and look
specifically. Um, so
way I am going to interpret this is
because we've said that in our
ordinances, you're a governmental body
because you got to follow all the same
rules as the other governmental bodies.
So, I like that also because it's more
consistent. You got consistency there.
you you've got a level playing field and
everybody's going by the same rules and
you don't get confusion on who does this
or who does what? Uh, six.
All right, great question. Anybody know
what a quorum is?
right? A majority of that of a governing
body, right? Simple majority. Um, now
there are times it's kind of unique. We
are no longer a general law. But you
look at say 22037038
where they call for special meetings.
And I say this because less than a year
ago we were. You actually had to call a
special meeting. Either the mayor could
call a special meeting or it
specifically says in statute three
members of a uh of the governing body
could call. Well, that's three out of
five. Does anybody know why it took
three members to call a special meeting?
» Because a it was okay because a quorum
for special meeting was four of the
five. So technically specifically
according to that statute. So I'm saying
sometimes it can be tricky. It's easy to
read but it can be tricky. So we've got
it all laid out in the charter so it's
much easier. So it's very important to
remember again I'm going to point back
to it all the time. The big overarching
umbrella that we're talking about back
when we were in general law we're
talking about a special meeting forum
was different took three members to uh
to call it or the mayor because you
needed four to have that meeting seven
please.
Now, we have it outlined uh in the
statute, and I had to go back and add um
home rule because we're home rule city.
Um so, that's going to depend on the
charter that we've we talked about that
some of the people were on the home rule
charter commission and with almost no
exceptions, we were able to make the
charter the way that we
wanted to make it. And so, um there you
go right there. It's a majority of the
governmental body. Um, and of course the
EDC and things like that is the majority
of the of the board members. Three of
five. Some some EDCs and things like
that, type B's or type A's have seven.
So obviously that would be four of the
seven just like our council now has
seven. Um, eight, please.
So what is the meeting? Anybody venture
a guess on that?
I guess
>> that is that that is that the only
» that is that that is that the only
definition of a meeting?
>> Okay. All right.
» Okay. All right.
>> Okay. Anybody else?
» All right. Anybody else?
Okay. Go to uh nine, please
look at that. I would say you're all
right. It's absolutely when it's
scheduled. That is the definition in D a
gathering conducted by the governmental
body which the government body is
responsible core members present uh
called by the governmental body. So
there's your meeting and you two y'all
are definition a a deliberation.
What does deliberation mean?
» It's very interesting. So and that is
the subject of some case law too.
deliberation. You just look at the
dictionary definition. It means long
detailed conversation.
That's what deliberation means. And so
why that's also very important is we've
got to and I think if y'all are going to
serve for a while, it is not a bad idea
to give you some homework and I would
peruse chapter 311 of the government
code. Why do I say that? Well, chapter
311 is called the code construction act.
It is a textbook that judges are
supposed to use and they don't always
use it, trust me. Uh, but they are
supposed to use to interpret rules,
ordinances, statutes, regulations,
things of that nature. That is the
interpretation. Well, 311, I think it's
31011
right there, words are given their plain
and ordinary meaning basically from the
dictionary unless the statute regulation
rule defines them in another way.
So if you got apple and it means a you
know long yellow thing with a with a
cover on it for purposes of that statute
that's what apple means. If you just say
apple without the definition it means
the round crisp red green yellow
whatever fruit. So it's a very important
thing to understand because why now we
know what deliberation is and it's a
deliberation it's between that long
detailed conversation between a quorum
of the governmental body or or a quorum
of the governmental body and another
person and it is when as you two
correctly stated during which public
business or even public policy over now
y'all got to have if y'all are talking
about what was going on with Charlie
Kirk and the funeral and stuff like
Not a problem. Even if it's a corner.
But if y'all are talking about, hey, we
need to have a resolution honoring
Charlie Kirk and what did now you're
getting into number three, public
business or public policy over which the
governmental body has supervisional
control. Now that's being discussed.
So, and then D, of course, y'all would
want to take formal action on that. Now
you got a quorum. Now you got a
deliberation.
not proper. So that that's it's very
important to know when you have a
meeting. Uh 10 police.
So does the which one? A woman make it
really easy. Does the open meetings
occupy every time there's a quorum of a
governmental body? Everybody who wants
to say A, of course it does or B maybe
depending on the circumstances.
Everybody says that A raise your hand
that it applies every time.
Okay. Well, you got to pick one or the
other
>> who it says be maybe depending on the
» who it says be maybe depending on the
circumstances.
» Okay. Next slide, please. Angela.
Well, and it's also th those aren't
require I don't think it's a bad
practice for cities to have, but there's
no law that requires notice of possible
form. Nothing nothing that that
requires. Again, a lot of cities do that
just to cover themselves. I don't have a
problem with it. It it's okay. But y'all
getting together and talking about
things, for example, social functions,
ceremonial events. So if a quorum of the
government body had gone uh with Mr.
Powers because he was driving all the
way to Arizona for Mr. Kirk's funeral,
that would have been fine. That would
have been an exception. So again, I love
exceptions because it reminds us we're
focusing on a big overarching umbrella.
Hey, everything is open to the public.
All meetings, yada yada. So this is an
exception to when we have to follow the
rules. So I I I I
love using exceptions. Next slide,
please.
>> Sure.
» Do
you
have
Friday.
It would be my mindset.
public
» and and all I'm saying is the law
doesn't require it. understand
our city.
» Okay. Yeah. I mean like
I've seen examples in city
where council members
situation
relationship.
» Okay.
It's a good example.
You're doing something for good reason.
Okay.
» Oh, yeah. She's got the form. She's got
the form down. Angela know what she's
doing. Yeah. She just whip it in.
No, no, no.
» We do not go back.
>> If you want to speak retroactively,
» If you want to speak retroactively,
that's different.
» Oh, no.
» By law, They're not required because
they're purely purely don't forget that
word purely advisory. My recommendation
is and most cities do this might not be
where they don't. They require any board
or commission whether or not they're
advisory to follow TOMA which I think is
a best practice.
They're intended to be
Yes. Transparency.
>> Well, just as a general principle, I
» Well, just as a general principle, I
think transparency that's number one.
Number two, you also escape from, well,
man, I wanted to come down and talk
about the park, but no, I didn't know
about the meeting. Okay. So now the way
we do it now, hey, there's a notice of
park board on the on the website because
you go click on it and see the agenda.
That's a third thing is if you don't
follow the open meetings act, you're not
posting an agenda. So nobody's and we'll
get into that too, but nobody really
knows what's going to happen at the
parks uh board meeting.
>> Hold on. So to use your example, John,
» Hold on. So to use your example, John,
if if it's a parks board advising
merrygoround, whatever they're called
these days, and they're just talking
about it and they're passing around the
idea, just pass around the idea to
advise the actual governmental body
who's going to make the decision. At
that point, it is public knowledge. So I
think it's has I don't think it takes
away the transparency when you have an
advisory board just throwing out ideas
because the the action taken in front of
the people on the island and then the
people could come and talk at that time
and say no I don't want to bring Mary go
around I want to be read you see what
I'm saying because I think a lot of time
>> but here's the thing how would they know
» but here's the thing how would they know
to come and speak about that if there
was no agenda posted
>> because the advis board is just getting
» because the advis board is just getting
it planned. The action is the
governmental body and then it is posted
because they're taking action.
>> So, what do you do about people that
» So, what do you do about people that
complain that I wanted to go to the park
board meeting, but you didn't tell me
about it?
>> It's an advisory board. They're they're
» It's an advisory board. They're they're
coming up with ideas to give the actual
government body the idea. If they want
to be a part of that, then they submit
their name and they they become part of
that plan. So, that's the whole thing.
If you're going to be in an advisory
board and you want to the one making
recommendations. We put it out time and
time again for people to be involved. If
they don't sign up to be involved and
then they want to complain about the
green versus red, well then they should
have signed up and then they could have
injected their voice then. It's I don't
think it takes away transparency. The
problem where it would take away
transparency is if we didn't we did make
a decision and just gave a directive to
the staff and never did anything.
Now, here's the thing. Y'all are
advocating for it to to not have to. I
I'm saying if you don't want it to
follow Toma, you can do that. I I still
believe it's a better pra not one way is
wrong and one way is right. Hear me. Not
saying one way is wrong, one I think
it's a better practice. It's a safer
practice. It's a more conservative
practice to have everybody follow Toma.
And I guess a fourth one would be
everybody's on the same playing field.
Everybody follows the same rules. Again,
not wrong if you don't unless our
charter sets up and we're breaking the
law there. But if our charter is silent
on it, it's completely totally up to
y'all as the council how y'all want that
to play out. I just think it's the
better practice of the two choices.
>> Fair enough.
» Fair enough.
>> Yeah. And we did that with the charter
» Yeah. And we did that with the charter
if I'm not mistaken. When we did the
charter, those were all posted and open
and everything. I'm not saying that we
wouldn't
To John's point, if they're just
throwing around some ideas,
it's keeping him from being able to call
two or three people just because they're
an advisory board. They're not elected.
small things together.
» Yeah. And I agree with that because
They were making recommendations.
>> Yeah. No, and I agree with that. I'm
» Yeah. No, and I agree with that. I'm
just I was just trying to understand
what John's example was. Like if they're
just calling to talk about something,
you know, two or three, four people are
coming up with an idea and they haven't
had a meeting since they're not elected
officials. They're not are they held to
that same
that's so strict that the elected
I don't know
all of the city council and all
commissions and committees by city
council.
» There you go. There you go. So then it
has to be so then it would be breaking
the law. We didn't
» answer that.
>> All right.
» All right.
>> Moving on. These are these meetings.
» Moving on. These are these meetings.
What determines what makes up a meeting?
Number 13, please.
So, these are some of the things that
you would that you would ask about. Is
there a quorum? Is there a deliberation?
And we don't know what that means,
between the governing body members. And
are they discussing public business? So
again, all three of those need to be
present for there to be a quorum and
there be an issue with the open meetings
act. Okay? Got to have the quorum. Got
to have public
being discussed and is that a long
detailed conversation between those
members? 14, please.
Oh, I got the same. I guess I got the
same one. Um 15.
Okay. So,
there's a gathering by and this gets
into We were talking about the two
definitions gathering by a governing
body and a called meeting by the
governing body. Still the same rules are
going to apply if there's a staff member
present.
Is there a quorum? Is there are you
receiving information from the third
party? Well, yeah. So, is the
information concerning public visits in
control of the public visit and control
of the governing body? So if Bris is
giving everybody an update and there
happen to be five council members there,
yeah, you got a meeting. All those
things, all those things are present. So
just because it's an employee, as
wonderful as it's still a meeting 16,
please.
Now, we've kind of talked about this, so
I think everybody's going to get this
one. So this is the Christmas party. Is
there a liberation is public business
being discussed now in general the
Christmas party. No, because that's not
going to happen. You are going to talk
about, you know, Jesus, what he's done
for us, the forgiveness, you know, those
those kind of of wonderful and good
things. And no sarcasm is intended there
because I believe in Jesus Christ as my
Lord and Savior. But the point is, if if
city business starts to be discussed by
three people gathered together, doesn't
mean it doesn't mean it will be. Okay?
Uh I actually from my experience in 26
years most of the time at parties like
this most of the time it's not I mean
some things comments maybe will be made
but there's not a quote long detailed
conversation about things that are under
the control of the governing body. So
even though that's specifically an
exception that you can get them all
together the other things still have to
be present for it to be considered a
meeting. Uh 17,
the mayor's office. You know, the mayor
loves to have people in his office when
he has gathering. Again, as wonderful as
our mayor is, and we're going to have a
statue of him before he uh leaves. We
all know that. Is the gathering is it
been called by the governing body? Is
there a quorum present? Are they
receiving information from the third
party? Is that not just that is the
information about again, hey, I want to
give you all information about the uh
Mr. powers to give information about the
Charlie Kirk uh and there's a quorum
present. You're having a long detailed
conversation about that. It is not
information about which the governing
body has control. So all of those
factors like I said you read it and it's
pretty simple but then when you go out
and in practice sometimes it'd be a bit
confusing to do but all those have to be
present. 18 please.
Um,
yeah, this this comes up all the time.
Well, hey, can we go to commissioner's
court? What happens if we all go to
commissioner's court? Well, okay, here
you have a situation where I think it's
fine if the entire council wants to go
to the county commissioner the the
commissioner's court meetings.
I don't want there to be any kind of
long detailed conversation
by a for quum of the council
over which that governing body has
authority. So going to the
commissioner's court meeting is fine.
Going to the RCH meeting is fine. Going
to whatever meeting you want to go to is
fine. My my warning is always be real
careful about when you get together and
you you talk about different things. Now
there's other things that people What
about this? We're gonna get we still got
a ways to go. So, we're going to get
into other stuff. I just want to lay the
basic groundwork so y'all don't think
again kind of like what I said at the
beginning. I don't want y'all to think
that, oh crap, we're going to get in
trouble because there's a quorum here.
No, no, no, no. There are still other
considerations and other questions that
need to be asked and answered in the
affirmative before people need to start
worrying about the fact that we've got a
quorum of a governing body or board
commission present. Uh, Please.
Um,
now this one's a little bit different.
It's kind of interesting. Look at the
second question. Is there deliberation
by a city council and another person? Is
there discussion public business in
control of the city? So, you can have
members of the city council talking
about somebody. Let's say, hey, look,
this is where you need as a resident,
not only Chis Rockall County. I don't
want the outer loop going right here. It
needs to be moved over here. Well,
that's not I mean I guess they're trying
to screw us over and put us there, but
you get you're talking about where it's
going to go in the county, not
necessarily specific to the city. That
y'all can all talk about that. That is
not an area of which y'all have control.
Y'all aren't in control of where that
goes. You You may have an opinion and a
say and may maybe they might listen to
you on that. we can get along with
everybody, but that is not something
that we as a city have control over. So
again, trying to put y'all on a bunch of
different scenarios, help y'all see that
these same rules apply.
>> Yeah.
» Right. For them. So
it seems like what you're tell
here's the thing we're going to get into
a little bit of that. Well, but it's not
it's not Toma like okay. No, does it
apply to what situation does it apply
to? If everybody if we've got four a
quorum of our council going up there and
discussing with the the county
commissioner and they're playing off of
each other, the council members are
playing off of each other. I don't care.
I don't represent the county. I don't
care what they do. That's their
business. My concern is if you have you
going up and made statement and then
mayor prochem going up. Oh yeah, you
know what? I agree with council member
Dean because this is what and you've got
control over that. You've got control
over that. Now you run the risk of a
quorum there because y'all are all
discussing city business that you have
control over without it being posted as
a meeting. That's the problem. Now, if
it is something like, hey, this is going
to affect the county and the county as a
whole, blah, blah, and Tim gets I agree
with council member Dean or maybe just
because you're rich Dean there. Uh, I
agree with him, blah, blah, blah. That
the way that's going to affect the
county. Y'all don't have control over
that. That is not a violation. You don't
need it posted. Things like that. So,
it's not just a I hear what you're
saying about Toma applies, but I want
you to understand how it applies to you,
to you, to you, to you, to you, to you,
and to me. That's what I'm trying to get
us to understand. So, just us going up
there and talking, even if all four of
them say, "Yeah, we all agree." If y'all
all four went up there and said, "We all
agree as a whole that this shouldn't be
happening in Rockall County, this part,
whatever, but it's not in Mlin Chisum."
That's not a revelation of
>> what you're saying
about
>> Yes, that's a good way to phrase it.
» Yes, that's a good way to phrase it.
That that meeting enemy I like that. I
like maybe that's a better way to to
phrase it if that if that helps. So I
I'm going to copy that. You know Oscar
Wild said plagiarism has form of
flatter. So I'm flattering you. So
that's right. The meeting within a
meeting just because the big meeting we
aren't protected by Toma too because
there was no just said the city council
mint and Chisum is going to be at the
county commissioners meeting and they're
going to meet deliberate about XYZ.
There you go. I thank you very much for
that. I like him. It's good. Uh 2019,
what is it next? Okay. All right. Now,
here's the instant messaging board. So,
we have Do we have anything on our
website for this or whatever?
>> Instant messaging like message board or
» Instant messaging like message board or
anything like that digital like
>> we don't. Okay. Uh I mean, all right.
» we don't. Okay. Uh I mean, all right.
Well, I don't want to get too much into
it. Um, but there are specific rules and
guidelines if you have a messaging
board, like how long you can keep the
message, you know, you got to be careful
about how quickly you respond or don't
respond or this this type of thing. And
that's all laid out. And 55106,
if y'all want to go and and and look at
that when we get uh maybe it'll need
more discussion once we get if we get
one of those things.
Well, two things. As usual, you always
are far ahead of me, Mr. Goodwin. Thank
you so much for making me look bad. I
appreciate that. We're going to get into
more of that,
but specifically messaging boards like
this. cities only allowed to have one on
the website and this is a specific
statutory
uh section to govern that specifically.
But we're gonna we're definitely getting
into more of that. Uh 21, please.
Well, we're not under that specific one,
but we're going to get into what that
stuff is. So, yeah.
So, um
I mean this is probably more for for
breeze because he's got to set it up,
you know, about when you can respond to
posts. Uh like I mentioned to you just a
minute ago, how long you respond to
posts, uh how long they have to be up,
you know, you can't take any action,
things like that. That's specifically
for the message board that we have uh on
the website. 22, please.
Now, now we're going to get into notice
requirements. Some of them have changed,
but this is this is constantly something
that and and Angela has been fantastic
to work with, but because she doesn't
just take it for granted. She's always
talking about, hey, how should items be
worded on the agenda? What and what I
actually appreciate about the mayor. The
mayor will email me and say, "Hey, look,
this is what I want on the agenda, uh,
you know, how if I need to change the
wording, let me know." Like, and I
really appreciate that because there are
rules and regulations about how, again,
they're going to be general and then you
got to kind of have some statutory
construction, maybe some case law, AG
opinions, things like that about how
that plays out. So, 23, please.
All right. Uh, this one I wanted to
leave up because I want you all know how
long does it take the notice of meeting
to have be posted. A, B, C, or D?
» All right, going on to the next one.
I left up the old one because it's all
changed now. It's not 72 hours anymore.
It's kind of a trick question. I want to
see who I could fool. The law has just
changed. So now you have to have three
full business days, not including the
day of the meeting and I think not
including the day that you post. So you
post like you post on a Monday, Tuesday,
Wednesday, Thursday, you can have a
meeting on Monday. We're different
because we're closed on Fridays. So
Friday is not a business day. So it
doesn't count. I told you the state
legislature does whatever they can to
make life more difficult for us. So now
we have meetings on Tuesday. We need to
get everything posted by the previous
Tuesday. Uh because then you've got
Wednesday, Thursday, and Monday. Boom.
And we have a meeting on on Tuesday. So
it's very important that everybody, you
know, if you need anything to get it to
Angela in plenty of time that we can now
post uh 25.
All right. Now we're getting to what is
sufficient notice. Now you look at the
far right. Sufficient to alert the
public in general terms
of the subject that will be considered
in the meeting. I've had city uh
officials ask me, well wait, we we can
just meet about that because we've got
executive session on the agenda. Well, I
go look and they mean literally, not
figuratively. They have executive
session on the agenda and they think
they can talk about whatever they want.
again. No, no, no, no, no. Those are
exceptions. And you've got to have an
idea. You can't just hide what you want
to talk about. You got to have something
even on executive session items. So,
while they won't be per pre peri privy
to the discussions in executive session,
you got to have an idea and give the
public an idea generally what you're
going to be talking about in executive
session. So we like we did last night is
a great example. The 8.2 that Oh, thank
you very much for that. The 8.2 item,
the 8.2 item when we went executive
session and it was fine the way it was
written on the agenda to be able to go
into executive session because they
don't know what we're talking about in
there. They don't have to know the the
discussions, but they know the general
subject matter that was discussion
executive session. And that that is what
the open meetings act requires. So you
you can't just cart blunch, leave it
wide open that we're just going to have.
That was like the funniest thing. Well,
at the time it really wasn't that funny
when Yeah, we've got on the agenda. What
do you got on the agenda? Exact session.
But you don't have to have it on that
you want to talk about the chief of
police. Well, we got executive session.
They literally thought that was enough.
Okay. So, um
the well and I put rule of thumb because
but there's actually some case law on
this for example everybody puts an
executive session for
um for uh personnel 551074
A1 discuss and consider the dismissal
reassignment uh of duties etc of a
public officer employee to wit and then
they'll put the title okay that's all
you need to put now here's what's
interesting is
if you just put police officer,
that doesn't require as much notice as
if you put chief of police right there.
The more important the particular
subject is to the public, the more
specific the notice needs to read. So
again, if you're going to discuss a
police officer, don't mean to offend
anybody, but that is not as heightened
in interest to the public as the chief
of police. Good example is somebody big
like Dallas or Fort Worth. Do you all
ever take notice if you saw a police
officer on the agenda? Probably not.
Maybe if you knew him or her, then maybe
so. Now, are you going to look at a
little closer? If you see on the agenda
the Fort Worth Chief of Police. Yeah.
Yeah. So, that's what we're talking
about. The more important a particular
uh subject is, the more specific you
need to be. So, that's great for us. We
know that every single person in the
city of Mlin Chisum there is a
physiological of the change that goes
through them once they pass our borders
and become a resident here and they care
about every bit of land use that goes
on. So I know that about this. So Angela
and I get together and we go into a
little bit more detail anytime we put
information about about plats. You see
her when she talks about you know
discuss consider uh approving a plat for
8.2 2 acres out of the WB Warfield
survey generally blah blah blah you know
number whatever the number is uh blah
blah blah generally located at the
southwest corner of 550 and whatever
okay that's that's a lot more detail
than you put on a lot of other agenda
items okay um that's that's real
important to understand too of why we
put things on the agenda the way we the
way we do uh 26
Okay,
this one's pretty easy because Angela
does a fantastic job. Anybody know where
you're supposed to put uh a copy of the
agenda,
» man. You know what? I'm gonna have to
stop you from like you're not allowed to
enter anything. People forget a lot
about the website and this is me. It
doesn't matter how long I've been doing
this. I I had pretty sharp several years
ago had a pretty
city secretary and uh it was a small
town about 900 people so you know she's
not as refined as say Angela is or
somebody is super nice lady loved
working with her and we're going along I
don't even remember how it came up
they're once a month you know type
meetings and um she mentioned something
about I said wait a minute you have a
website
I've been here for like two and a half
three years she's like yeah you know
there's a website I'm like you do do you
post the agenda on the website? She's
like, well, no. Do we have to? I'm like,
oh my gosh. I'm like, technically, yes.
Posting it on the website is just as
important as posting it in a conspicuous
place in city hall. Okay. And thank you
to Angela for being here. We had a while
back, we had a city secretary that would
post, and I remember this because of a
certain lawsuit we're involved in a
blank agenda for August the 5th, 2021.
We didn't have a meeting. Why Why are
you Why are you posting a blanket
template agenda for a meeting that we
didn't even have? Causes a lot of issue.
Okay? So, you got to know what to post
and what not to post on there. So, it
doesn't do anything. Maybe she'll post,
"Hey, Daryus canled the meeting." Boom.
Puts on the website so the citizens
know. Okay? But you're not going to post
a blank agenda. But that's how important
the website is in addition to posting it
in a conspicuous place. Uh, next one,
please. 287.
All right. What uh what does the notice
of the of the meeting versus the agenda?
Okay. Agenda is not really defined by
the open means act. Okay, we we have
kind of created the term agenda as
that's a again 311 011 words are given
their plain ordinary meaning and what do
I have there black's law dictionary
because that's what attorneys love to
use a list of things be done that's just
what we're doing these are the things
we're going to do at our meeting so
that's an agenda that's what we have
that's why we came up with that 28
please
Uh, well, we already gone through this.
I jumped a little bit ahead. I guess I'm
channeling my inner Mr. Goodwin 29.
Please
say there's posing because now we all
know I left it on there. So now we know
that it's actually for three business
days and it's still got to follow all
the same posting requirements
of the Now the one reason I have it up
there is to remember if there's been an
attempt to post it on the website and
this has happened on occasion um that
you attempt to post on the website and
something happens that is beyond our
control a technical diff and that's
actually does
It's not I'll just say it's not uncommon
and let's say there is a day and a half
that it wasn't on the web. We're still
fine. We can still go that is exception
043 that talks about hey you know what
if there's a good faith attempt to post
the agenda but there's a technical
difficulty which makes it non-compliant
with the the posting rule three business
days we're still good. So, it's it's
important to be aware of things. You
want to make sure it's fixed, but nobody
worry if there's a true technical
difficulty. We're going to be okay. Uh
30, please.
That's an example of what agenda looks
like. Uh Angela's already got this
nailed down. Um so, we're we're good to
go on that one.
31. Sorry.
All right. Um we may We go back and Oh,
no. We got I got it written in there.
Good. Yay. Me. So, are four and five on
the agenda? Are they sufficient to
notice the inform the public of the
subject to be discussed?
Yes. And no.
All right. It's not. In fact, I can't
stand it. I can't stand city managers
report, mayor's report. I mean, like
whatever that is just opening up the
door to having a what's it? Long
detailed conversation about whatever
they want to whatever they want to talk
about. Hate it. Hate it. Hate it. I also
think the AG opinions back me up on
that. I think mayor's report and our
mayor does a great job on that updating
the uh the uh reclamation and
restoration in Kirk County like stuff
like that he puts on the agenda. Now
there still doesn't need to be
discussion on that any kind of long
detail conversation but he can give an
update talk about it so we do a good job
on that. But again, you see all the time
a lot of cities have departmental
reports, police report, fire report,
code enforcement, public works report,
all those things. Okay, I guess you can
just give the report, but you can't
really talk about it. You can't discuss
it. I mean, you know, there's no there's
none of that on there. So, it's real
important to remember what do you want
to do with an agenda item? What is it
you want to have? If you just want to
let people know about it, we could do
that. There's nothing almost almost
nothing is illegal to have a meeting.
What I mean by that is people think you
are procluded from having discussion on
the uh with a public during a meeting.
How many thinks you can't have a
discussion with the public during the
meeting?
>> Like having a back and forth discussion
» Like having a back and forth discussion
with the public.
It's a trick question. If it's not on
the agenda, absolutely not 100%. But I
have put on the agenda in certain
situations discuss with the public
council and uh public discuss I 8.2 uh
platform blah blah blah whatever. Now
whether you want to do that or not is a
that's a policy question. It's not
illegal and you can actually do that. I
don't think it's the best policy, but I
have a handful of times in my career
help city councils do that to to to to
foster a public discussion between the
these citizens that are there, the
general public and the governing body.
So that's Mr. Goodwin was on top of
things. That's that's the issue. Is it
on the agenda? Uh 33, please.
Now these are specific statutory
exceptions. Again, I like that word that
you can do this. So like when the mayor
when he gets up there and he goes, "Hey,
you know what? Beginning of every
meeting, we like to pick a a name from
the hat. We like to honor somebody
that's fallen." Boom. That is
congratulations, exception. Uh uh
condolences or thanks. I got no problem
with that. And he gives a little bit of
detail about the person that we're
honoring. that fits exactly in
with the items of community interest
because those are things that that
typically generally normally there may
be some people out there that aren't
interested in in that or don't care
about it or whatever but typically
generally normally the general person is
going to be interested in that and they
are going to want to know about that. So
there's that would be falling under one
of the uh exceptions uh 34 please
because I want to get to the thing that
you asked about earlier. So, I'm trying
to to hot foot it. Oh,
well, we're gonna get All right. I'm I'm
gonna go faster. So, uh 35. Let me see
if it's I can't remember if it's next or
not.
Okay. Do you all know about this one?
Can city council change a council
meeting from one date to another without
changing it on the agenda?
Next slide.
Ah, see I catch you on that. No, you
can't. All that's got to be done
per the uh agenda per at a meeting and
it nothing can be done in that three-day
business period. Can't make any changes
to it. I actually had one city secretary
and I almost had a literal heart attack
uh because she told somebody, "Well,
yeah, you posted the original agenda
correctly on Monday and then Tuesday
came around. You can add something to it
and just you don't even have to How are
you secretary? You need to be fired
immediately. What are you talking about?
I can't believe that you would say
that." Like that was my reaction in my
head. No, that agenda can't be changed
once it's posted um from that first day.
leave it for the business days. You're
stuck with that with that agenda. Um,
and even in a quote addendum, you just
can't go add stuff to the agenda and
think you're going to comply with the
open meetings act. Now, my example was,
oh, okay, like even for the rule, we
post it on Monday for a meeting on the
next Monday. Why don't I just put one
item on the agenda and then Monday
morning, the day of the meeting, add 15
more? Like, that didn't make it didn't
make any sense. So, next slide, please.
Uh, old business. I think we've already
covered that. You already know the
answer. Next slide, please. Yeah. No, I
I I I hate stuff like that. There's got
to be more. What old business, for
example? Um, then that's what you see.
If I'm gonna Good rule of thumb, if I'm
going to put an item on the agenda, um,
what I what is it that I want to talk
about? That's where you start. So, you
can come to me and email me and say,
"This is what I want to talk about. How
I need to put it on the agenda. Now, the
mayor has sent me, hey, this is my
agenda items. It's seven and a half
pages. Do you think I'm like, okay, we
can cut that down a little bit, mayor.
It's it's okay. So, it it doesn't have
to be too much. So, I I don't want to
freak everybody out. But you start with
the first question should be, what is it
that I want to talk about? Uh, next
slide, please.
What do y'all think about that one?
» That says public testimony.
» That is the agenda item. Public
testimony. So the question is, does that
agenda item give the public a right to
speak at open meeting on that?
All right, next slide.
Remember what and say I'm going to go
back to this and y'all going to say
like, oh, you know what? He may be
crazy, but I get his logic now. The
overarching principle, what are meetings
for? So the public participates and the
public knows. So, yes. And I'm just
going to tell y'all, I will always defer
always defer to giving the public like
the mayor and bless him. I love the man.
I don't necessarily have a problem, but
even he could control the meeting and
say, "Look, everybody that signed up,
that's that's why we have you signed up
so we know who's going to speak." But
then he goes and says, "Hey, I'm going
to make sure that everybody else does
anybody else want to speak?" Okay. He
could legally we get to define yes they
have a right to speak but we get to
define the parameters of how they do it.
So the mayor could absolutely go we have
rules you sign up fill out the sheet
before the meeting starts and it's
Angela that's what we're limiting to but
he also goes the extra mile and I mean
granted it can make the meeting last
because we have more people talk but you
know what that's keeping with the big
overarching principle of of what we of
what we of what we do. So there is zero
issue with that. Uh no no judge is going
to come down on somebody because they
gave the public too much too many
opportunities to speak. Uh 41 please.
» Absolutely. Yes.
Right.
And that is what the law is. I mean, we
we can either say, look, everybody is at
the beginning of we can limit everybody
to the beginning. You can't put them at
the end, put them at the beginning, or
you can say, hey, look, we're going to
just let everybody sign up for whatever
agenda item they want to talk on. That
tends to make the meetings quite long.
on certain things. So I like how we do
it. Let everybody speak about whatever
they want to speak about at the
beginning because we have a regular
routine I think of public hearings. So
there's another opportunity for them to
speak at that time uh as well. So here
is and this is something comes up quite
normally. What can people get away with
when they're speaking up there?
My general rule is I almost let them say
whatever they want to say. I really
really have a difficult time abridging
their rights, but there are some
restrictions put on them. Yes, sir.
» That is what they're supposed to do
because yes, it is citizen comments to
the public. Yes,
» the mayor the mayor can absolutely step
in and say, "Hey, look, you need address
of comments, you know, but I I got to
speak up for the mayor a little bit. I
think he does a good job running the
meetings. I I'm you know he he's if he
air heirs it's on the side of giving
people too much of an opportunity which
is always the side you want to air on.
» Um so you know you can't get up there
and yell and scream and and defame or uh
abuse people and use indecent language.
You can't do that kind of stuff. Um you
know so there are some guidelines. Go
ahead.
Oh, no, no, no, no. Look, here's the
thing. I And I They're gone now, so I
can say it. I was about um You may
remember the council members better than
me, even though you weren't you were in
Lancaster at the time. I was in a
Duncanville meeting, and they were
talking about two council members could
not stand each other, but I did got
physical. And I said, "Look,
if the meeting is going on,
I don't care if one council member stabs
the other one. Make sure he's safe. Make
sure take his knife away. You can
handcuff from the chair, but you don't
arrest them during the meeting. You wait
until after the meeting. That's how
sacrosanct I think legislative immunity
is. And really, the only time that y'all
have immunity is when you're acting as
legislators. Well, when is that?
When you're up here now. Okay, Council
Dean, that doesn't mean you go slug
somebody, you know, during the meeting
and say, "Oh, Michael said it's okay."
That is not what I'm saying. But I'm
trying to give you an example of how
sacroanked I think the legislative
immunity uh principle really is. Um
and I think the mayor the mayor kind of
like it was kind of cool. He he had you
did somebody have a meeting I think
didn't you with the scuba Steve.
>> Yeah. Yeah. That was pretty so right
» Yeah. Yeah. That was pretty so right
there. Disrupting a meeting by physical
uh action or uh verbal utterance that is
actually also in the government code. So
uh Mr.
>> Oh yeah yeah yeah. He kind of I think he
» Oh yeah yeah yeah. He kind of I think he
kind of enjoyed it though. Tweeting me
pretty much on the third.
>> Oh yeah. Well, he was warned and then he
» Oh yeah. Well, he was warned and then he
just did it. Yeah. I I think he was a
little irritated because he got the
warning after the first time. He's like,
"Well, I got to do it two more times
now." I think that's what he did. Uh
>> yeah. Yeah. See? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I
» yeah. Yeah. See? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I
think Yeah. Um Okay. Uh 42, please.
Okay. Um
So, these are good rules for
um I don't I put third on there because
that's in the statute, but really the
two the two that you got to know of what
can you respond to public if it's not on
the agenda. You can state a fact. Hey,
yeah, you know what? The Earth Day event
is uh this Saturday, September the
7th. Yeah, Earth Day is September 27th.
That's a fact. You can even not on
there. Um, hey, our policy is to have
the city manager present at Earth Day
and he's the one uh doing all the dirty
work. That's our you can you can say
that that's a statement of the policy
that we have. Those types of things you
are allowed to do um without when the
items aren't on the agenda. The issue
becomes is not so much with the fact one
but like a policy. Oh, well, you know,
if that's a policy we had a city
administrator, is he really going to be
out there on Earth Day throwing trash
away and doing? It leads to potential
discussion of things. That's that's the
concern that I have. But again, it's not
my job to tell you uh to do it for you,
tell you what the law is. I'm sharing
you what the law is. I'm telling you
what my concerns are so everybody can be
aware of. 443,
please.
If I can run real fast through the the
walking quorum. Do you really have to?
Okay.
>> Sorry. All right. I want to get there.
» Sorry. All right. I want to get there.
All right. Um,
» you can get together with the other
council members to talk about it if you
want.
» Absolutely. Yeah. See, he learned his
lesson. Well, very nice. Very nice. All
right. Uh can a may a governmental body
continue a meeting the next day? So the
meeting last night if council say hey
look we want to continue it tomorrow.
Can they do that?
>> Anybody vote no?
» Y all think that everybody thinks you
can do that.
» You go to 44 or 45 46 whatever. Yes you
can. Yes.
>> Yeah.
» Yeah.
I couldn't get anybody to bite on that.
Sheesh, man. Um I just paid Eddie to say
it off.
>> Oh, really? So, yeah, I think come back
» Oh, really? So, yeah, I think come back
the next day. Uh 40 was 47.
» All right. So, this this gets this comes
up more often than you think. Can we
call emergency meeting?
Well, we got a real big problem where at
all is out of toilet paper. It's a mess.
It's It's an emergency. It's a No, it's
not. Okay. I know it's not good. I know
it's bad, but you know what? Uh uh send
Angel out to the 7-Eleven and she can
get some. So, understanding what an
actual emergency is, like for example,
Kirk County, that was an emergency. That
was like a national disaster. I think I
put it on here uh because it's been a
while. Yeah. Fire, flood, earthquake,
hurricane turnout, wind, rain, or
snowstorm. Those are what we're talking
about are the types of emergencies and
it has been changed. You only have to
give one hour notice. I mean I I don't
know whether what I think about they
change it from two hours to one but you
got to give one hour notice. But that is
um uh and I always have to do I always
have to do the last one because I've
been asked that
you know 14 times for every city I've
represented at the time. What do I
forgot to put it on the agenda? Sorry.
got to wait till the next meeting or you
can call a special meeting. Next,
please.
» Will you go back to the last
emergency?
It's got to be for us. It's got to be
for us. I was g So, I'm glad you asked
about that. I I didn't know that I was
confusing people, so I apologize. What I
meant is if if Ker County was calling an
emergency meeting, then for them that
absolutely was a emergency. One hour was
all the notice they needed post on the
agenda, yada yada yada. So, thank you
for
uh Next one, Angela. I really like the
slide, too, because it reminds me of of
uh
Angel was told me to put that in there.
So, it wasn't my idea. Next one, please.
All right. Guess who is the record
keeper of the city?
» 22073 right there. She is responsible
for all the records and I'm so glad it
is Angela now. Um she we had a huge
issue yesterday a real uh fooar and uh
our cluster if you watched Heartbreak
Break Ridge with Cleanswood she fixed
it. So thank you Angela you were
fantastic. Um now what I also like about
what Angela does is you see people
coming in how much is really required in
minutes? I've seen minutes that are a
book. They're this long. You don't need
all that stuff. There's no specific
provisions. There's basically a minimum.
What I prefer to have on there, I prefer
to have the agenda item.
Council member A made a motion. It was
seconded by council member B. This was
the vote. So, the motion passed or the
motion failed, whatever. Boom. Now
you're done with minutes. You move on to
the next one. I don't like
There's, again, I told you I like
exceptions. I don't like a lot of
details in the minutes because then
you're stuck with them. What if
something happened, somebody said
something and that's not what they
really said, boom, you're stuck with it.
City of Austin, v. Whittington, 2005,
Austin Court of Appeals. A city
officially speaks through its
ordinances, resolutions, and minutes,
quote unquote. So, the minutes are very
important. It's not just a
that's a pain in the butt bookkeeping
thing we got to do. I mean it is that
but it's not just that. It is the
official statement and you're stuck with
it as a city. So they are important for
that. Now there are certain things and
it's a little more applicable to us than
to some other people I represent. I do
like a little more detail when it comes
to city council delivering on things
like zoning. Why is that? Well, if the
zoning is ever contested, now we've got
an official in the record
what the city council considered and
what people said when let's say you
choose to deny it. And everybody said,
"Well, it's going to cause pollution.
It's going to cause noise. It really
doesn't fit with the overall scheme, you
know, in this area." Now, you've got all
that in the minutes that the city
council base their decision on. And a
judge, whether they agree with it or
not, they still have to consider. So,
there are it's an exception. So there
are times when
less is more isn't the best way to do
that. So um
48 or nine or whatever we're on now,
B or D
» forever. Okay.
Why do you say just curiosity?
>> Why did you say B out of curiosity?
» Probably record retention act. Okay. All
right. Uh so raise hands. Who says two
years? Anybody? No. Who says five years?
Okay. Who says 10 years?
>> Okay. Who said forever? Anybody else say
» Okay. Who said forever? Anybody else say
forever? Okay. Dang, you got it right.
Next one. Yes, we got to keep our reg.
Well, that's still funny, but that's not
the Yeah, I do. That is so us. That is
so us.
Yes, we are stuck with our records
because there are people that are going
to look for our I just did a lawsuit uh
for a city and we were looking at
ordinances the city had passed in 2008.
Lawsuit started in 2022. So 14 years
prior we were looking at those things.
You got to keep got to keep records. Got
to keep records.
Now there are certain which is why I was
asking about you the records retention
act there are certain records minutes or
recordings of meetings and things like
that ordinances resolutions those are
forever but there are certain things
that and that's a it's a list on on the
schedule that's five years and you just
got to keep them and you're good you can
toss them but our minutes and our
ordinances are forever uh 50 Please.
Now, uh we've got to record minutes uh
record meetings because we are um uh
we've been doing that. We've got the
capability to do that and we've
institute that. So, we got to continue
to record the meetings and keep those uh
recordings as well. There are, you know,
if we were over 50,000 and or a county
uh if both of those existed, then we'd
have to as a matter of law. We have to
because we chosen to start that. You
can't really
Which is why if you look at the first
one, uh, make a video and audio
recording of reasonable quality of each
regular schedule. Why I've been so
nervous until the mayor and Angela got
here because our recordings have been
crap for so long.
So, um, I'm glad that we've got them and
they have they have fixed that. Uh, 51.
That's a good little thing for for
Angela to know.
So these are a little uh requirement 52.
I like to throw some of those things in
there. So can y'all hold a meeting if
there is uh not a quorum present?
» Anybody say no?
All right. Go to 53.
Here's why where I put no.
You guys are right. Council member
London, the mayor, y'all are right. But
you're like, well, you put no. It's
because it's not a meeting. Remember
what our definition is. The first part
of it is got to have a quorum. So, if
you don't have a quorum, not a meeting.
See, you guys were right, but you I
helped you learn why you were right.
>> Uh 54.
Do not think it escaped my attention
that your right-hand man is now for
Reese and not me. Just, you know, just
gonna say that. Uh, let's see.
>> That's good for y'all just kind of have
» That's good for y'all just kind of have
an idea. You know, they can record the
meetings because I know that we've had,
you know, one or two citizens that like
to record our meetings. They can choose
to do that, but unlike what their
position was, they can't just choose to
do it wherever the heck they want to do
it. They they can't cause a disruption.
They can't be in the way. Um they can do
it where the mayor uh as the one who
runs the meeting sets it up. Um now, I
know I had to tell the mayor on this one
particular person uh we can't send them
up to the second floor. And if y'all
have a notice, we don't have a second
floor. That would be the roof. He can't
send it to the second floor to record
it. But you can control, you know,
generally where it is in in the meeting
area. And same thing for P and D. I'd
say the chair, you know, it happens.
Same type same type of deal. Um 55.
Now we're getting into the executive
session. So this is more detail. Anybody
needs a break, let me know. 56.
All right. So, we actually we probably
covered a little bit of this, but I want
y'all to have the procedure because a
PNZ ever goes in exact session.
It's going to apply to y'all as well.
So, the the PNC chair or the mayor as
the case may be, y'all have the opening
meeting, you convene, then you y'all are
presiding officer. So, y'all are going
to announce, hey, we're going into
executive session and we're doing it on
through this specific statute, you know,
I don't know, 551087.
up discussing to discuss an economic
development uh project, you know, just
by way of example and you quote the
section and then you go now Angela knows
you got to keep a copy of the certified
agenda. Now you got two choices. You can
keep a copy of certified agenda which is
literally a piece of paper that is
signed by the mayor and signed by the
Angela and then we seal it up and it
just says, "Hey, this is what was
discussed exact session and that's it."
Your other option is to have an actual
recording
of what
happens in executive session. And I can
just tell you from
literally going to thousands of ex
executive sessions, that's the last
thing anybody wants to do is actually
have an audio recording of what happens
in an executive session. So 57,
but it isn't either war.
So, just so y'all are aware, it's not a
huge thing, but that's what the
certified agenda requires. And I have
sent Angela a template. It's what we use
every time. So, if y'all are ever
interested in looking at it and seeing
it, um, you can do that. It's just a
list of who's there, who's present, and
the item that was discussed. And that's
that. Um,
let's see. Uh, 58.
So, may a member of the governmental
body or staff release a copy of the
certified agenda or recording of a
closed meeting to the public? Remember
our umbrella rule, everything's open to
the public. So, the question is A, B, C,
or D?
Anybody
want to go with B or C?
So everybody is either A or D. Okay,
Angela, reveal the answer, please.
It is in fact, it is in fact a criminal
offense, class B misdemeanor, to release
a certified agenda without the order of
a district court judge. Not a county
court of law judge, not a federal judge,
not a municipal court judge, not a JP,
but a district court judge. That is
actually in statute. So, it's good to
see our former chief of police got us
all thrown in jail. That is good. That's
good. So that that is how sacroyn the
certified agendas are. But again looking
at it it's not really intimidating. So
you might want to just see the form and
how it is and you can even see the
certified agenda if you go to a meeting
any executive session. Hey Angela, can I
see that before you seal it up? Because
once it's sealed up, it's sealed up. Uh
60 please.
Now, uh, and I love the fact, I can't
help it because he did it to himself,
but, uh, Mr. Bob Steinhagen when he
disagreed with me, he actually cited the
same cases I cited. So, really, he does
agree with me. He just doesn't know how
to apply what he reads. So, who can
attend the executive session?
anybody that you're the PNZ governing
body or the council of the governing
body deems to be necessary for the
agenda item that you're going into
executive session over that's now there
are some specific exceptions crafted by
case law not by statute give an example
if you are in a real estate deal with
someone you cannot take them into like
they're in a contract to buy cannot take
them into executive session. If you're
in the midst of a lawsuit with another
side, you can't go back into executive
session. So, it's very very important
that you note the last part is it may
not admit a person and it it's not a
period. It does not stop there. It said
whose presence is against the interest
of the governmental body.
That's the key. Is the presence against
the interest? If it is someone the
governmental body says, I think their
their presence is necessary to help me
understand or make a decision out in
public about an agenda item. That person
is not their presence is not against the
interest of the governmental body.
That's the phrase right there. He also
got a 1995 uh district of Texas case uh
that also supports that. 61, please.
I think y'all well y'all got I already
mentioned 087 we mentioned 072 you know
real property now don't be confused we
can go back and talk about a real
property deal that's fine you can go
specifically on that and in fact you
don't even need the attorney for 072
y'all can go back and talk about that
the the thing about that you can't do is
the person that you're going to buy or
sell the property to or from that person
can't go back so just want to make sure
that you personnel matters. That's what
I quoted earlier, 074 A1. There's also
A2. Um, y'all can go out executive
session. You don't technically need uh a
uh the city attorney for those types of
things. Uh 62, please.
Again, note what what is the on the
third line? Common exceptions. The
general rule is you can't go into
executive session. Everything's got to
be discussed out in public.
Now, here's the thing, too, and I and I
want to be fully and completely
transparent. I will, if anything ever
happens, I will take on the AG free of
charge. I think they've got some very
poor opinion writers. I think they're
too in some of them are way too
influenced by politics. Well, what do
you mean? We have a catchall
and we've used it for years at the
bottom that says very clearly the city
council may go into executive session on
any agenda item pursuant to 5510712
to consult with the city attorney about
that particular item. For years, the AG
had never addressed it. I think maybe
year maybe two, there's an AG opinion
out there that thinks that's not enough.
I think that is
one of the poorest legal reasoning and
rationale I have ever encountered. And I
and I will tell this to somebody. It's
recorded. You can show it to the AG. I
think they should be embarrassed for
that decision because what you're
telling me is in the middle of a
meeting. You could have a very serious
issue that's on the agenda properly
posted and a council member goes, "Well,
crap. What are the legal consequences
for this?" Well, we didn't specifically
put it on the agenda and the deadline to
make a decision is tonight. So, you're
kind of screwed according to the AG.
That's crap. No. And I will fight the AG
free of charge if we're ever challenged
on that. The council should be
encouraged encourage to go, "Wait a
minute. I got legal questions about this
particular agenda item. We didn't
specifically say it was going to be for
attorney, but I don't know how to make a
decision without knowing the legal
consequence, and I don't feel
comfortable doing that in public because
that's going to give away all my
thinking, everything I may have on this
decision.
That seems to be the poorest public
policy to say a council can't do that.
Okay. So, but I want to make everybody
aware there is a very recent AG opinion
that says that. I wholeheartedly
couldn't possibly disagree more uh with
that. And I think the fact because it's
it's noticed on the agenda. It says very
clearly we could go. Now, you don't
necessarily know, but a person can look
at that agenda and go, "Oh, that thing
about buying or selling the fire
station, that's on the agenda." And then
at the bottom, they could go get legal
advice about that. They're aware of
that. That fits what we talked about.
People need to have a general idea of
what's being discussed and what could
happen. So, there you go. Uh, next one,
please.
This is what I wanted Mr. Good to be
here for.
Oh, wait. What are you doing, Angela?
Hold on. Let me read that one. It's not
as good as the one where the minutes
where the guy says, you know, it should
be noticed that every minute is like an
hour, but this is still pretty good.
And you notice everybody's winking at
each other. Okay. So, this is gonna get
into
now you may proceed. Angela, thank you
so much.
Angela's always having to slow down for
me. I really appreciate it. So, uh a
little bit again only those three uh
provisions can be enforced by the DA,
the county, or the criminal district
attorney. That's because there's a most
DAS have a civil side and a criminal
side. And so there are potential civil
penalties and or criminal penalties for
for uh TOMA. Uh next one please.
That's what they are. Um
it's important to understand
some actions are and it makes a
difference on how you can enforce
certain things to know whether an action
is void or voidable.
Let me let me try to give an idea. So
the let's say you got a zoning case and
that comes up. Let's say that we have
proper notice 10 days to the PNZ. They
meet. They got a recommendation. We have
the council meeting. There's a public
hearing on the council meeting and uh
the uh PNZ makes a recommendation and
the council votes. Then we find out that
we had a mistake. Not Angela, but we had
a mistake. There was only 10 days notice
to the council, not 15 that was
required. Does that mean that zoning
ordinance is is void flat on its face?
Exact. No more. This is no more for you.
No more for you. Uh but that's exactly
right. And the reason why is because
it's passed. What council can then do
and go, okay, we got a nose 15 days.
They go back 15 days, they post it, they
have the the the meeting, they vote on
it again and passed it. You're fine. You
don't have to go back and redo the whole
thing. Now, give an example where it's
void. Let's say the easiest one is
annexation. We can't really do it
anymore, but think back in the days when
we could annex. One thing is y'all
understand with annexations it's a
specific detailed meets and bounds of
property going and a surveyor can go out
and go it starts here and the property
goes around and ends like that. Okay.
Well, if there's a problem with the
meets and bounds the detailed this being
dairy certain track to land out of this
thing going down to the iron rod at a
20° angle northwest from this road blah
blah blah. That's the meets and bounds.
If that goes like this but stops here,
we say that doesn't close and the city
council passes the ordinance and three
years later it's determined that it
didn't close. That action is void. You
cannot go back and fix it without
redoing everything. It is void from its
it's called void avenue initial void
from the beginning because the council
didn't have authority
to annex property without a closing that
is a void action again the voidable one
is the procedure was followed but it
wasn't followed I'm going to say
accurately or all correctly so you can
go back and fix that that's an that's an
example of avoid
versus avoidable action And those can
have very very serious
consequences and differences. Um,
next please.
Oh. Oh, go back one. I'm sorry, Angela.
Go back one more. So, mandamus for
example, you can go back. Mandamis the
the ask the court to Mandamis is a is a
request for a judge to order a
government official to do or not do
something. And you can only do it when
the rules are completely laid out. This
is why board voidable is important. If,
for example, you're going to go forward,
you could probably get a court, I would
think, at least an injunction against
the city from enacting and going forward
on the zoning ordinance because you only
had 10day notice for council 15. Okay.
So, they could mandamish you. That's
arguable, but for sure they can enjoin
you from effectively carrying out the
ordinance because you got to go back and
fix it. The court can't mandamus or
can't enjoin you from acting out the uh
annexation ordinance because it was void
from the beginning. So that is an
example of why void and voidable and how
they could play out in our world. Thank
you, Angela. Next one. Sorry about that.
Okay. unauthorized again. Um, oh, I took
it out. I apologize. I took it out in
another part, but not this one. Now, um,
the knowing part is now kind of removed.
If you do this, now we're getting into,
um,
I don't know where we are now. Angela's
got us at like 64 and a half.
» Uh, yeah, go down.
Yeah, go down one more actually. See if
it's what I'm thinking.
No, we already talked about that one. Go
down 68. That's about the certified
agenda and a class B misdemeanor. Ya.
Go. Will you go down 68, please?
Okay, here we go. Here we go. This is
what I want to get into and what Mr.
Good was talking about. Now,
now we're getting into and and everybody
read these because now it really gets a
bit dicey. It gets a bit it gets a bit
difficult.
Is there a violation? And I don't think
I had this this question. Oh, well, I'm
wait till everybody reads it real fast.
Okay, we go at 69. I can't remember if I
put the question on here or not.
No, go down one more. I mean, put it on
here. That's okay.
Look at that. We're getting close to the
end, people.
Okay, this is this is good enough. I
didn't think I put it on there, but
okay. So, let me ask you this.
If Mayor Pro Tim went to the mayor,
talked to him about, let's use the
controversial 8.2 last night, say he
went to the mayor and talked about 8.2.
Okay. Then he went to council member
London and he talked about 8.2. And then
he went to council member Cowry and
talked about 8.2 from last night. So,
there was deliberation for for sure.
They talked about public
They had a long detailed conversation
about an item under which they have
control. Okay. Well, I guess we learned
from last night they have control over.
That's story. Did any of those four
people violate the Open Means Act in the
scenario I just gave?
» Who? Okay.
>> He didn't even say his name. He's like
» He didn't even say his name. He's like
>> that dude right there in red.
» that dude right there in red.
>> Why are you scooting over?
» Why are you scooting over?
Well, this guy already put us in jail
once.
» Okay, now careful. In the scenario I
gave,
>> did anybody violate the Open Meetings
» did anybody violate the Open Meetings
Act? And if so, who?
Okay.
» Okay. So, you say nobody.
>> Okay.
» Okay.
>> I'm gonna say
» I'm gonna say
>> Okay. Everybody wants to blame you.
» Okay. Everybody wants to blame you.
Okay. Really? Why is that?
>> I wasn't I didn't go I went to one
» I wasn't I didn't go I went to one
particular person
the other person said and so this I'm
just giving you
>> the man's got it waking everybody up.
» the man's got it waking everybody up.
>> You are the man. That is exactly right.
» You are the man. That is exactly right.
But you see how this gets complicated.
This gets and I'm not kidding about it.
It gets very complicated. It's very
detailed. I mean, it it is not easy. So,
I want y'all to call me at any time. He
mayor Tim nailed it. If he and that was
my scenario, he's right. If he had gone
to the mayor, talked about 8.2,
then gone to council member Towry and
said, "Yeah, I was talking to the mayor
about, you know, 8.2 and council member
Cowry blah blah blah, and then he had
gone to council member London and said,
"Yeah, you know what? I talked to
council member Towry and the mayor and
this is what we concluded." And Mr.
London uh said, "Yeah, you know, okay, I
kind of agree with you." Then who's
committed uh a uh a violation of the
meanings act?
>> Close. No,
» Close. No,
>> not me.
» not me.
>> Not him and not him. That's not a
» Not him and not him. That's not a
quorum.
>> But you're on the right track.
» You got it. It's exactly that simple.
Just like Mayor Proin said, he can talk
to every single member of council.
every single one. As long as he's not
pulling it and pulling it all together,
there's not a violation. Now, I will
tell you, a lot of city attorneys won't
tell you those types of details because
they're like, "No, y'all can't talk."
Again, I don't I don't do it that way. I
treat y'all like grown-ups. Um I my my
phone is always available. You can call
me anytime, midnight, whatever. It
doesn't matter. Uh and I and I have
answered that for a lot of people and I
will because this is a very touchy, you
know, type subject and so I want
everybody to feel comfortable in what
they're doing. Hey, you know what? This
is what I did. Is it okay? But again,
that's why we started with what we
started
forum.
Is it something that you uh we have
control over? Uh yada yada yada. We went
right down the list. So that's what you
start thinking. Oh yes.
mayor.
» We're actually gonna get into this. He's
not even here. He's ahead of me.
I mean, what is your opinion on that?
» He's pretty well trained. Well, here's
the thing. It depend. Like most good
attorneys, I'm going to say it depends.
If Mr. Mr. Goodwin is posting on great
meeting last night. Okay. Mr. Goodwin's
like, "My daughter's the greatest."
Maybe I had son. My my kid is the
greatest kid in the world. Okay. You
don't like that? No. That's I don't care
if every single council member does
that.
>> If Mr. Goodwin said, "Man, I am excited
» If Mr. Goodwin said, "Man, I am excited
about voting at the next meeting on item
8.4 and saying blah blah blah." And you
like it. Yeah, I think you violate the
open meetings act.
>> So that's again quorum. Is it under your
» So that's again quorum. Is it under your
control? But step by step by step going
down going down the list. And again,
it's not wrong for you to talk to
everybody else and get their feeling
on things. So yeah. Now, what was the
first did I answer the first part of the
question? First,
» okay, now based on
>> the ones I see a lot is when people say
» the ones I see a lot is when people say
what's coming at 5 and 20 or I heard
this is coming. Does anybody know
anything? And then all of a sudden
people start chiming in.
>> It happens a lot.
» It happens a lot.
you see and I see on the HOA page,
they'll they'll type, hey, I saw this is
coming up. What does anybody know about
it? And then and typically you'll see
at Brian, do you know anything? And I
don't ever comment. I I don't even I
don't even I just stay away from those
conversations.
>> But now now that we've you go through do
» But now now that we've you go through do
can you do you think, hey, you know
what? I can apply that to the different
>> Yeah.
Because in in all serious, look, I know
a lot of this is dry and boring, so I do
try to keep y'all entertained, you know,
as well as teach y'all stuff, but in all
seriousness, I want to Thank you, Mr.
Powers. In all seriousness, one thing I
want to be able to do is if I'm not
around, you know, I who knows what
what's going to happen in the future. if
I'm not around. I want y'all to have the
tools and the knowledge that you need to
keep yourself out of trouble and and
more importantly be able to serve the
people that elect y'all to be here.
That's what I want to be able to do is
give y'all the tools that you need and
say, "Hey, look, you know what? I can I
can figure this out. I don't want y'all
to be on a life rapper on your own. So,
seriously, call me anytime, okay? But I
want y'all to also feel comfortable uh
knowing that, okay, look, I need to be
careful with what I say or, you know,
I'm not going to worry about if I I love
the picnic, I love the barbecue, you
know, it was great, and I want to tell
Council Member Goodwin, thanks for
letting me use your you know, your
grill, whatever. You know, I'm not going
to worry about it then because like,
hey, I got quorum. Is it under control?
yada yada yada. I got all that stuff in
place. Um, next one, please. I think
we're pretty close to being done now.
Oh, y'all know about that. I do 90day
72, please.
Yeah, if y'all ever want uh the the
that's just in case y'all want to talk
to the OG and stuff like that and that's
for new recordions. Uh and and and I
always encourage cities are always
asking me um the reason I have this on
there, cities are always asking how long
should we keep records. said, "Look,
what I think everybody should do, you
pass an ordinance and you adopt the
Texas State Library Archives, their
record retention policy. It's just it's
easy to follow. You can look at it. You
know what you can get rid of, when you
can get rid of, how you get rid of it,
stuff like that." So, that that pretty
much wraps it up unless you have
questions.
Oh yeah, I probably I didn't cover that.
So I I should I guess I was
» So here's the thing. Much like the
attorney client privilege is held not by
the attorney. It is not the attorney's
privilege. It is the client's privilege.
and only the client can wave it. So the
point of going back in executive
session, it is the council's or the PNG,
whoever does it. It is the council's
uh privilege. It's not mine. It's not
for brie's. We can't say anything
without y'all's permission about what
happened executive session. Y'all are
free. Yes. The one guiding rule that
that I give council when they're asking
about what you know, talk about
is my question I always ask is hey if
you're asking me about whether or not
you should talk to so and so about
whatever is my thing is what was your
point of going into executive session?
If you're going to go into executive
session and then just tell the whole
world then why didn't you why did you
waste our time going back in there and
doing that? Why don't we just have it
out here in the front? That's that's
where I'm coming from.
>> But
» But
>> is that is that is that answer the
» is that is that is that answer the
practice? you don't you don't want to
but if you did you're not in trouble
right a lot of people will try to say oh
you're in trouble for talking about
executive session
>> I would be Angela would be you know
» I would be Angela would be you know
somebody for reason
>> y'all it is y'all's privilege so y'all
» y'all it is y'all's privilege so y'all
would not be Somebody's attend
hour.
I know I've tried to since I've come on
like
>> I try to and anyone in here will tell
» I try to and anyone in here will tell
you I'm usually like hey
back
I'll tell you where it's
session number.
» Yeah.
Let me ask you, let me ask you a
question, Mark. Remember when I first
came on as mayor and I held executive
session from 5:45 to 6:15
and I had that council at the time did
not like that and that's why we have to
stop that. I actually like rock wall
does it. I can't remember what the other
city does. We do it we have executive
session before 6:30. So that way when we
hit 6:30, we're in front of people and
and I I have zero issue going back to
that whole council. I mean, I can't we
can't do that decision tonight, but I
can put it on the agenda to ask the
council if they want to do it. I'll be
happy to go back to the 5:45 to 6:15
executive session. And the reason I like
it is because it was a time. Hey, at
6:15 we're going back out there because
you want to be saying hi to people,
talking to the people, greeting the
people that are coming to this meeting
so they know they're important. At 6:30
starts,
» it's supposed to be. That's why I call
them exceptions. And I got to give the
mayor props. In 26 years of doing this,
he's probably one of the top mayors I've
seen about getting in their executive
session, getting the business done, and
getting out. I mean, he really he really
he really does a very good job of doing
that.
Right.
That's called a certified agenda.
>> A certified agenda. And we do that after
» A certified agenda. And we do that after
every executive session. Angela can give
you and P&Z would use the same one. And
it's just and I created it and I use it
for any city I represent. They change if
they want to, but I think Angela likes
it. And it's just the the template of
what we would use for a certified agenda
for our executive sessions. If you
you're welcome to look at it. Yeah.
» I think he's saying when we come back
outside, should we be saying what we
>> Oh,
» Oh,
>> give like a little brief. Give a little
» give like a little brief. Give a little
brief.
>> You're not required to. You don't have
» You're not required to. You don't have
to take any action after executive
session. The governing body doesn't.
They don't have to take any action. In
fact, what I always recommend that the
mayor do is when we come out of
executive session, go, "Hey, is there
any action as a result of executive
session?" If somebody says, "Yeah, I
want to make a motion to approve the
contract between, you know, city and
whatever or if there's nothing and
everybody is quiet, the mayor just moves
on."
>> Well, usually
» Well, usually
no.
>> I'll say no action was taken. I know
» I'll say no action was taken. I know
what it because I might say, you know,
we talked a little bit about this, no
actions taken
>> without
» without
>> without specifics. I'm I'm pretty
» without specifics. I'm I'm pretty
general, which is
>> which is why I like to to Mark's point,
» which is why I like to to Mark's point,
there's only certain reasons to go into
executive session and I I really try to
adhere to that because I I I am not a
fan of executive session, but I
understand a need for it, which I guess
now I will ask for reason to make sure
it's on the next council meeting that we
discuss. Do we want to go back to
pre meeting from 5:45 to 6:15 and then
we can have that opportunity for
executive session and then we are
because my whole thing is in front of
the people that's they that's what they
want us to be we're not the government
they are we just be out here talking to
them so
you know we'll put it on the next one
and we can discuss
Maybe we maybe we have to be better as
far as
you know our new city manager So when we
have the agendas that we looking at that
and making sure you know if there's a
reason or something to go on executive
session we're going into it and we we
have that laid out
>> and then that way it's just it's not
» and then that way it's just it's not
abuse because I mean you know I will I
will say there's not one executive
session that I've called so far that
I've regretted the only ones I have been
in somewhere this long and I'm just like
why we're talking in circles and you
know I am
Once we say it twice that we're going
back out, we done disgusting. Let's go.
And I'll try to tighten that up. I don't
like it back there.
We have pretty robust policy
discussions.
approaches.
But then come to