[6:22] Uh, Mr. Mayor, we need to announce that
[6:24] since Mr. Powers is here, life can go
[6:26] on.
[13:13] He's
[13:22] actually
[13:24] >> All right. Good evening everybody. It is
[13:26] » All right. Good evening everybody. It is
[13:26] 6:32. We'll go ahead and get this
[13:28] started. Um I'm going to let Fris uh do
[13:31] some opening remarks since uh many of
[13:34] y'all are just meeting him for the first
[13:35] time so he can kind of just give himself
[13:37] an introduction and then uh Mr. Hollow
[13:39] will take it over.
[13:42] looking around the room. Uh I think I've
[13:44] met most of you. My name is Fabric
[13:46] Cababona. I have the pleasure of serving
[13:48] as city manager. Third day on the job
[13:51] now. Um so it's certainly a pleasure to
[13:54] be here among you and be able to serve
[13:56] this community. Um like to take this
[13:59] opportunity to just thank city council
[14:01] for the opportunity for entrusting me
[14:03] with this responsibility and I look
[14:06] forward to uh working with each each and
[14:07] every one of you. If you have any
[14:10] questions, if you need to visit with me,
[14:12] please uh feel free to come see me.
[14:15] >> Thank you.
[14:16] » Thank you.
[14:16] >> Thanks, sir. Mr.
[14:23] » So,
[14:25] Freeze is the one that asked me to kind
[14:27] of do this. So, apparently he uh learned
[14:30] to be just as bossy as Bev. So, that's
[14:32] why we're uh here tonight. But I was
[14:34] kind of asked to give um a little and
[14:37] some of y'all have probably already had
[14:38] this at least on counsel with your oh
[14:41] for reason I go way back so it's okay.
[14:43] Um during the uh first 90 days that you
[14:47] take counsel you're supposed to take the
[14:48] the seminar. Well th this is a certified
[14:51] presentation that I got from the AG.
[14:53] They certified on it. It's a little bit
[14:54] it's a little bit uh dated. It's from I
[14:58] think maybe 21 or 22, but I've updated
[15:01] spent the last couple days kind of
[15:02] updating it on some some of the lot like
[15:05] the agenda postings for example. Um I
[15:07] think I caught most of them, but maybe
[15:09] not. But it's it's pretty much up to
[15:10] date. So, what I'm going to do is just
[15:12] kind of go through generally speaking
[15:15] the um the Open Meetings Act, what it
[15:18] is, what it's for, um what are some some
[15:21] tricks and traps about the Open Meetings
[15:23] Act because there there can be um you
[15:26] know, the law is is easy to write and
[15:28] it's easy to read at times, but it's not
[15:30] always easy to implement. That's why we
[15:32] have case law because sometimes it's
[15:34] difficult to implement the case law. And
[15:36] I don't know that I've met every one of
[15:38] y'all, but I am Michael Alla, the city
[15:41] attorney. Um, and so it's nice to meet
[15:44] the gentleman from the PND that I
[15:46] haven't met. Um, and so at any time
[15:49] y'all have questions, just really just
[15:51] say, "Hey, interrupt. It's not a
[15:53] problem." Just say, "Hey, got a
[15:54] question." And that's what we'll take
[15:56] and and uh I'm happy to answer that. So,
[16:00] uh, number two there, Angela.
[16:04] Yeah. just make sure Angel's awake. So,
[16:05] I'll just call out the numbers. So, this
[16:08] is kind of what we're going to do, who
[16:10] it applies to, you know, what's a
[16:12] quorum, you know, what what is like a
[16:14] meeting and so all that kind of stuff
[16:16] because there are are again um they give
[16:19] you a definition, but sometimes how it
[16:21] plays out, you may or may not realize it
[16:24] because there's a lot in the law that
[16:28] you can step into unintentionally. Now,
[16:31] that used to protect you a lot. You had
[16:34] to be knowingly in violation of the Open
[16:38] Meetings Act. Um, but now they change.
[16:41] It's still a class B misdemeanor, which
[16:43] is, you know, up to six months in in
[16:45] jail. $2,000 fine. That's the max. Uh,
[16:48] but it is now they've taken out that
[16:50] knowledge requirement. It is if you do
[16:54] it and it's a quorum and you're doing it
[16:56] without the That's it. You're Now,
[16:59] here's the thing, too. from a I always
[17:03] like to give some practical aspect to
[17:05] whenever I make presentations and not
[17:07] just go and let y'all think that's what
[17:09] happens in real life because y'all from
[17:12] this particular council um they're all
[17:15] always asking questions as a whole uh
[17:17] some more so than others not singling
[17:18] out Mr. powers or anything, but this
[17:20] particular council always asks questions
[17:22] and they want to know. But I also want
[17:24] to provide you some practical
[17:26] application. As y'all are aware, because
[17:29] you're alive for more than five minutes,
[17:31] life is full of politics. DAS do not
[17:34] like to get involved in he said, she
[17:37] said, oh, they violated the open
[17:39] meetings act. they they might dip their
[17:41] toe in the in the water to look like
[17:43] they're doing this or whatnot, but the
[17:46] typical general normal average DA does
[17:48] not like to get involved in this. So,
[17:50] what I want to say is if you're sitting
[17:53] there and you feel like, "Oh crap, I
[17:54] think I may have done it. I didn't mean
[17:56] to do it." I don't want you to worry.
[17:58] Now, on the other hand, I have to
[18:00] balance that. I don't want you to go,
[18:02] "Well, DA's not going to give crap. Why
[18:04] Why should I?" No. No. that's not
[18:07] you've got series of violations over
[18:10] time that could be an issue. So, I'm
[18:13] going to try and drop in some practical
[18:15] application of all of this stuff as well
[18:18] as just telling you, okay, this is what
[18:19] it is and this is what it means. And
[18:21] again, if y'all need some of that
[18:23] practical application, hey, got a
[18:25] question? Hey, got a comment? Hey, got a
[18:28] hypothetical, whatever, just ask me.
[18:30] Three, please.
[18:35] Okay. So, it's been around as you can
[18:36] see. I mean, I'm not going to
[18:38] necessarily read it, but it's really
[18:40] important to look at uh Cornin wasn't
[18:43] too bad for a guy that started out as a
[18:45] little bit of a liberal DA down in
[18:46] Austin. I don't think he's he's too bad
[18:49] of a guy. He has led us some some good
[18:51] things. I I really want to stress
[18:55] the general rule because everything that
[18:57] we're going to talk about today
[19:00] falls under that umbrella. And it is
[19:04] very important to remember just in the
[19:08] PIA there's some carryover.
[19:11] Everything is public knowledge.
[19:13] Everything should be available to the
[19:15] public. The reason that we can go into
[19:18] executive session there are exceptions
[19:21] to that general rule. Sometimes people
[19:24] forget about the general rule and they
[19:27] just quickly run into executive session.
[19:29] I'm like, okay, remember the general
[19:31] rule is everything's got to be public.
[19:32] You have to find the exception to go.
[19:34] You can't just go in exact session
[19:36] because you feel like it. Okay. So,
[19:37] that's what I'm trying to stress about.
[19:39] PIA is the same thing. The general rule
[19:42] is every single bit of piece of
[19:44] information that is possessed by the
[19:46] city
[19:48] that is open to the public. That is open
[19:51] to the public. Now, I have been saying
[19:54] for a number of years that there are
[19:57] some cities out there with
[19:59] administrators, and this is a good good
[20:01] for so at least knows how I feel about
[20:03] it, that I'll give you a great example.
[20:06] A few years ago, a council member um not
[20:09] that council members ever want to know
[20:11] more than they need to know, but this
[20:13] particular council member wanted to know
[20:15] all of the police vehicles. Like, I need
[20:18] I I need to know where they are, what
[20:19] their number like, but okay. Why they
[20:21] need to know? Doesn't matter. Okay. I
[20:24] said, "Look, y'all need to give this
[20:26] council member that information. Just
[20:29] they're they're elected by the people.
[20:32] They have more of a right to that
[20:34] information than anybody that works at
[20:37] city hall than any employee because
[20:39] they're the only six people in y'all's
[20:41] case, seven only people that were
[20:44] elected by the public." I said, "You I
[20:46] don't care that we've got some
[20:47] undercover vehicle." Now, maybe go to
[20:49] that council member and explain to them
[20:50] the situation and say, "Hey, you know
[20:52] what? Maybe that's not a good idea that
[20:54] we don't want to let that out there."
[20:56] yada yada yada. But I'm not going to sit
[20:58] there and say that you can keep that
[20:59] from a council member. Now, the
[21:01] legislature finally caught up with me. I
[21:03] think it was House Bill 48041 maybe
[21:06] something. It's entitled special right
[21:08] of access. So now they have codified um
[21:13] specifically that members of the
[21:14] governing body have a special right of
[21:17] access to any and all information. Now I
[21:21] that doesn't always make me popular with
[21:23] staff but that's something I've been
[21:25] saying for years because I look at the
[21:27] general the way the law is phrased the
[21:30] big umbrella and then apply logic which
[21:34] that is probably part of my problem when
[21:35] I'm talking with some people but I take
[21:37] that big umbrella and I apply the logic
[21:39] and I'm like well wait a minute they're
[21:41] the only people elected
[21:43] by the people they should be able to see
[21:45] what are they they're also making all
[21:47] the decisions that affect the city
[21:49] because even though you Mr. city
[21:51] administrator, uh you fire chief, police
[21:53] chief, you know, whatever y'all are
[21:55] making decision, it is because they have
[21:57] given you direction to do that. You're
[21:59] carrying out you're the executive uh
[22:01] function branch carrying out the what
[22:05] has been directed to you by the
[22:06] legislature. So that's I want to stress
[22:09] and make sure that we all understand the
[22:11] big overarching umbrella that we're
[22:13] dealing with when you're talking about
[22:14] the open meetings act. Again, also the
[22:16] PIA. Uh, Angela, please don't take it as
[22:19] insulting. I'm just going to call out
[22:21] numbers when I'm ready to go to the next
[22:22] one. Is that okay? Uh, yes. Because
[22:24] Angela is wonderfully terrific and also
[22:26] scares me a little bit. Four.
[22:30] All right.
[22:32] Who is subject to the Open Meetings Act?
[22:34] Anybody want to venture a guess?
[22:41] » Yes. The guy who wears the hat with a
[22:43] Boy Scout troop that has a football
[22:45] team. Yes, that is right. the the public
[22:48] officials are the ones subject to the
[22:49] open meetings act. No one else can be uh
[22:52] is subject to it because they have been
[22:54] elected by people. They're not they're
[22:56] not appointed by the PNZ. Now, here's
[22:59] what's interesting. If a city wants to,
[23:02] and I never advise this, but a if you've
[23:04] got a board that is purely advisory, not
[23:08] and I I don't think P&Z falls because I
[23:10] think y'all are quasi um you know,
[23:12] legislative in a sense because y'all
[23:14] have more of a specific statutory role
[23:16] than a lot of other places, but purely
[23:18] advisory doesn't technically have to
[23:20] follow the Open Meetings Act. Now,
[23:24] I think it's terrible policy. I think
[23:26] the policy should be everybody that we
[23:28] got. We file the open meetings act. But
[23:31] my role is I treat my clients, the
[23:34] councils, the PNZ as adults. I know of
[23:38] other city attorneys, give you a great
[23:40] example, and we'll get into this. I
[23:43] think individual council members and
[23:44] they and they do what they want.
[23:46] Horrible idea to talk to developers.
[23:49] Horrible idea. The mayor's a little
[23:51] different because that role is a little
[23:53] unique. terrible, but it's not against
[23:55] the law. It's not improper. I know city
[23:58] attorneys that because they see the
[24:01] difficulties and the ramifications and
[24:03] and potential negative consequences that
[24:05] come from that, they have actually told
[24:08] clients it's against the law and they
[24:10] can't do it. I know that because some of
[24:13] these council members from other cities
[24:14] have called me and asked me if that's
[24:15] the truth. So, my goal and what I will
[24:18] do is I'm going to tell you what the law
[24:20] is. Now, well, I'm going to tell you
[24:22] it's a bad idea to do this or that in my
[24:24] opinion, but I'm not going to to tell
[24:27] you something to make my job easier or
[24:29] to keep everybody safe. I want y'all to
[24:31] be aware what the law is and know what
[24:33] you're getting yourselves into and then
[24:35] y'all make the decisions. So, uh, five,
[24:38] please.
[24:40] Um, I do not remember color coding
[24:43] those. Um, but okay. But anyway, what
[24:46] what is a governmental body? So we've
[24:48] got a definition in 5513.
[24:52] All these things can be considered um uh
[24:56] governmental bodies. Now the boards and
[24:58] commissions
[24:59] not governmental bodies. Does anybody
[25:02] know why that is?
[25:05] Who who do what exactly? Yes. They're
[25:08] appointed. So and they can come and go
[25:11] at the pleasure of the city council. So
[25:13] it's important to understand who is and
[25:16] who is not. Now, I believe that our
[25:19] ordinances require all of our boards and
[25:21] commissions to follow the open meetings
[25:23] act. I'd have to go back and look
[25:24] specifically. Um, so
[25:28] way I am going to interpret this is
[25:30] because we've said that in our
[25:31] ordinances, you're a governmental body
[25:34] because you got to follow all the same
[25:35] rules as the other governmental bodies.
[25:37] So, I like that also because it's more
[25:39] consistent. You got consistency there.
[25:42] you you've got a level playing field and
[25:44] everybody's going by the same rules and
[25:46] you don't get confusion on who does this
[25:48] or who does what? Uh, six.
[25:57] All right, great question. Anybody know
[25:58] what a quorum is?
[26:11] right? A majority of that of a governing
[26:14] body, right? Simple majority. Um, now
[26:17] there are times it's kind of unique. We
[26:19] are no longer a general law. But you
[26:22] look at say 22037038
[26:25] where they call for special meetings.
[26:26] And I say this because less than a year
[26:28] ago we were. You actually had to call a
[26:30] special meeting. Either the mayor could
[26:32] call a special meeting or it
[26:34] specifically says in statute three
[26:36] members of a uh of the governing body
[26:39] could call. Well, that's three out of
[26:41] five. Does anybody know why it took
[26:43] three members to call a special meeting?
[26:49] » Because a it was okay because a quorum
[26:51] for special meeting was four of the
[26:53] five. So technically specifically
[26:56] according to that statute. So I'm saying
[26:57] sometimes it can be tricky. It's easy to
[26:59] read but it can be tricky. So we've got
[27:02] it all laid out in the charter so it's
[27:04] much easier. So it's very important to
[27:07] remember again I'm going to point back
[27:09] to it all the time. The big overarching
[27:11] umbrella that we're talking about back
[27:13] when we were in general law we're
[27:14] talking about a special meeting forum
[27:16] was different took three members to uh
[27:19] to call it or the mayor because you
[27:22] needed four to have that meeting seven
[27:24] please.
[27:28] Now, we have it outlined uh in the
[27:30] statute, and I had to go back and add um
[27:33] home rule because we're home rule city.
[27:35] Um so, that's going to depend on the
[27:37] charter that we've we talked about that
[27:40] some of the people were on the home rule
[27:42] charter commission and with almost no
[27:45] exceptions, we were able to make the
[27:47] charter the way that we
[27:49] wanted to make it. And so, um there you
[27:53] go right there. It's a majority of the
[27:56] governmental body. Um, and of course the
[27:59] EDC and things like that is the majority
[28:02] of the of the board members. Three of
[28:03] five. Some some EDCs and things like
[28:05] that, type B's or type A's have seven.
[28:07] So obviously that would be four of the
[28:09] seven just like our council now has
[28:11] seven. Um, eight, please.
[28:15] So what is the meeting? Anybody venture
[28:18] a guess on that?
[28:22] I guess
[28:25] >> that is that that is that the only
[28:27] » that is that that is that the only
[28:27] definition of a meeting?
[28:28] >> Okay. All right.
[28:31] » Okay. All right.
[28:32] >> Okay. Anybody else?
[28:38] » All right. Anybody else?
[28:41] Okay. Go to uh nine, please
[28:46] look at that. I would say you're all
[28:47] right. It's absolutely when it's
[28:50] scheduled. That is the definition in D a
[28:52] gathering conducted by the governmental
[28:54] body which the government body is
[28:55] responsible core members present uh
[28:58] called by the governmental body. So
[29:00] there's your meeting and you two y'all
[29:02] are definition a a deliberation.
[29:05] What does deliberation mean?
[29:13] » It's very interesting. So and that is
[29:16] the subject of some case law too.
[29:19] deliberation. You just look at the
[29:21] dictionary definition. It means long
[29:24] detailed conversation.
[29:26] That's what deliberation means. And so
[29:29] why that's also very important is we've
[29:32] got to and I think if y'all are going to
[29:34] serve for a while, it is not a bad idea
[29:36] to give you some homework and I would
[29:38] peruse chapter 311 of the government
[29:41] code. Why do I say that? Well, chapter
[29:44] 311 is called the code construction act.
[29:49] It is a textbook that judges are
[29:53] supposed to use and they don't always
[29:55] use it, trust me. Uh, but they are
[29:57] supposed to use to interpret rules,
[29:59] ordinances, statutes, regulations,
[30:01] things of that nature. That is the
[30:03] interpretation. Well, 311, I think it's
[30:06] 31011
[30:08] right there, words are given their plain
[30:10] and ordinary meaning basically from the
[30:13] dictionary unless the statute regulation
[30:16] rule defines them in another way.
[30:18] So if you got apple and it means a you
[30:22] know long yellow thing with a with a
[30:24] cover on it for purposes of that statute
[30:27] that's what apple means. If you just say
[30:29] apple without the definition it means
[30:32] the round crisp red green yellow
[30:34] whatever fruit. So it's a very important
[30:37] thing to understand because why now we
[30:40] know what deliberation is and it's a
[30:41] deliberation it's between that long
[30:43] detailed conversation between a quorum
[30:46] of the governmental body or or a quorum
[30:50] of the governmental body and another
[30:52] person and it is when as you two
[30:55] correctly stated during which public
[30:57] business or even public policy over now
[31:00] y'all got to have if y'all are talking
[31:01] about what was going on with Charlie
[31:03] Kirk and the funeral and stuff like
[31:05] Not a problem. Even if it's a corner.
[31:07] But if y'all are talking about, hey, we
[31:10] need to have a resolution honoring
[31:12] Charlie Kirk and what did now you're
[31:14] getting into number three, public
[31:17] business or public policy over which the
[31:20] governmental body has supervisional
[31:21] control. Now that's being discussed.
[31:25] So, and then D, of course, y'all would
[31:27] want to take formal action on that. Now
[31:29] you got a quorum. Now you got a
[31:31] deliberation.
[31:33] not proper. So that that's it's very
[31:36] important to know when you have a
[31:38] meeting. Uh 10 police.
[31:43] So does the which one? A woman make it
[31:47] really easy. Does the open meetings
[31:48] occupy every time there's a quorum of a
[31:50] governmental body? Everybody who wants
[31:52] to say A, of course it does or B maybe
[31:54] depending on the circumstances.
[31:56] Everybody says that A raise your hand
[31:58] that it applies every time.
[32:02] Okay. Well, you got to pick one or the
[32:04] other
[32:05] >> who it says be maybe depending on the
[32:06] » who it says be maybe depending on the
[32:06] circumstances.
[32:10] » Okay. Next slide, please. Angela.
[32:32] Well, and it's also th those aren't
[32:34] require I don't think it's a bad
[32:35] practice for cities to have, but there's
[32:37] no law that requires notice of possible
[32:39] form. Nothing nothing that that
[32:42] requires. Again, a lot of cities do that
[32:44] just to cover themselves. I don't have a
[32:45] problem with it. It it's okay. But y'all
[32:49] getting together and talking about
[32:50] things, for example, social functions,
[32:52] ceremonial events. So if a quorum of the
[32:55] government body had gone uh with Mr.
[32:57] Powers because he was driving all the
[32:59] way to Arizona for Mr. Kirk's funeral,
[33:02] that would have been fine. That would
[33:04] have been an exception. So again, I love
[33:07] exceptions because it reminds us we're
[33:09] focusing on a big overarching umbrella.
[33:11] Hey, everything is open to the public.
[33:14] All meetings, yada yada. So this is an
[33:16] exception to when we have to follow the
[33:18] rules. So I I I I
[33:21] love using exceptions. Next slide,
[33:23] please.
[33:26] >> Sure.
[33:30] » Do
[33:35] you
[33:39] have
[33:46] Friday.
[33:53] It would be my mindset.
[34:19] public
[34:27] » and and all I'm saying is the law
[34:29] doesn't require it. understand
[34:42] our city.
[34:48] » Okay. Yeah. I mean like
[34:56] I've seen examples in city
[35:00] where council members
[35:03] situation
[35:05] relationship.
[35:14] » Okay.
[35:35] It's a good example.
[35:39] You're doing something for good reason.
[35:58] Okay.
[36:03] » Oh, yeah. She's got the form. She's got
[36:05] the form down. Angela know what she's
[36:06] doing. Yeah. She just whip it in.
[36:19] No, no, no.
[36:22] » We do not go back.
[36:25] >> If you want to speak retroactively,
[36:27] » If you want to speak retroactively,
[36:27] that's different.
[36:31] » Oh, no.
[36:40] » By law, They're not required because
[36:42] they're purely purely don't forget that
[36:44] word purely advisory. My recommendation
[36:48] is and most cities do this might not be
[36:51] where they don't. They require any board
[36:53] or commission whether or not they're
[36:55] advisory to follow TOMA which I think is
[36:57] a best practice.
[37:10] They're intended to be
[37:36] Yes. Transparency.
[37:38] >> Well, just as a general principle, I
[37:41] » Well, just as a general principle, I
[37:41] think transparency that's number one.
[37:42] Number two, you also escape from, well,
[37:45] man, I wanted to come down and talk
[37:46] about the park, but no, I didn't know
[37:48] about the meeting. Okay. So now the way
[37:51] we do it now, hey, there's a notice of
[37:52] park board on the on the website because
[37:56] you go click on it and see the agenda.
[37:58] That's a third thing is if you don't
[38:00] follow the open meetings act, you're not
[38:02] posting an agenda. So nobody's and we'll
[38:04] get into that too, but nobody really
[38:06] knows what's going to happen at the
[38:07] parks uh board meeting.
[38:09] >> Hold on. So to use your example, John,
[38:13] » Hold on. So to use your example, John,
[38:13] if if it's a parks board advising
[38:17] merrygoround, whatever they're called
[38:18] these days, and they're just talking
[38:20] about it and they're passing around the
[38:21] idea, just pass around the idea to
[38:24] advise the actual governmental body
[38:26] who's going to make the decision. At
[38:27] that point, it is public knowledge. So I
[38:31] think it's has I don't think it takes
[38:33] away the transparency when you have an
[38:35] advisory board just throwing out ideas
[38:37] because the the action taken in front of
[38:40] the people on the island and then the
[38:43] people could come and talk at that time
[38:45] and say no I don't want to bring Mary go
[38:47] around I want to be read you see what
[38:50] I'm saying because I think a lot of time
[38:53] >> but here's the thing how would they know
[38:55] » but here's the thing how would they know
[38:55] to come and speak about that if there
[38:57] was no agenda posted
[38:58] >> because the advis board is just getting
[39:00] » because the advis board is just getting
[39:00] it planned. The action is the
[39:02] governmental body and then it is posted
[39:03] because they're taking action.
[39:05] >> So, what do you do about people that
[39:06] » So, what do you do about people that
[39:06] complain that I wanted to go to the park
[39:08] board meeting, but you didn't tell me
[39:09] about it?
[39:12] >> It's an advisory board. They're they're
[39:14] » It's an advisory board. They're they're
[39:14] coming up with ideas to give the actual
[39:17] government body the idea. If they want
[39:20] to be a part of that, then they submit
[39:21] their name and they they become part of
[39:23] that plan. So, that's the whole thing.
[39:26] If you're going to be in an advisory
[39:27] board and you want to the one making
[39:29] recommendations. We put it out time and
[39:32] time again for people to be involved. If
[39:34] they don't sign up to be involved and
[39:36] then they want to complain about the
[39:37] green versus red, well then they should
[39:40] have signed up and then they could have
[39:41] injected their voice then. It's I don't
[39:44] think it takes away transparency. The
[39:46] problem where it would take away
[39:47] transparency is if we didn't we did make
[39:51] a decision and just gave a directive to
[39:54] the staff and never did anything.
[39:58] Now, here's the thing. Y'all are
[40:00] advocating for it to to not have to. I
[40:03] I'm saying if you don't want it to
[40:04] follow Toma, you can do that. I I still
[40:08] believe it's a better pra not one way is
[40:10] wrong and one way is right. Hear me. Not
[40:13] saying one way is wrong, one I think
[40:15] it's a better practice. It's a safer
[40:17] practice. It's a more conservative
[40:19] practice to have everybody follow Toma.
[40:22] And I guess a fourth one would be
[40:23] everybody's on the same playing field.
[40:25] Everybody follows the same rules. Again,
[40:27] not wrong if you don't unless our
[40:30] charter sets up and we're breaking the
[40:31] law there. But if our charter is silent
[40:33] on it, it's completely totally up to
[40:35] y'all as the council how y'all want that
[40:38] to play out. I just think it's the
[40:40] better practice of the two choices.
[40:44] >> Fair enough.
[40:45] » Fair enough.
[40:45] >> Yeah. And we did that with the charter
[40:47] » Yeah. And we did that with the charter
[40:47] if I'm not mistaken. When we did the
[40:48] charter, those were all posted and open
[40:51] and everything. I'm not saying that we
[40:53] wouldn't
[40:55] To John's point, if they're just
[40:56] throwing around some ideas,
[41:00] it's keeping him from being able to call
[41:02] two or three people just because they're
[41:03] an advisory board. They're not elected.
[41:33] small things together.
[41:50] » Yeah. And I agree with that because
[41:53] They were making recommendations.
[41:56] >> Yeah. No, and I agree with that. I'm
[41:57] » Yeah. No, and I agree with that. I'm
[41:57] just I was just trying to understand
[42:00] what John's example was. Like if they're
[42:03] just calling to talk about something,
[42:06] you know, two or three, four people are
[42:08] coming up with an idea and they haven't
[42:10] had a meeting since they're not elected
[42:13] officials. They're not are they held to
[42:16] that same
[42:18] that's so strict that the elected
[42:22] I don't know
[42:31] all of the city council and all
[42:34] commissions and committees by city
[42:36] council.
[42:39] » There you go. There you go. So then it
[42:40] has to be so then it would be breaking
[42:42] the law. We didn't
[42:47] » answer that.
[42:48] >> All right.
[42:49] » All right.
[42:49] >> Moving on. These are these meetings.
[42:51] » Moving on. These are these meetings.
[42:51] What determines what makes up a meeting?
[42:53] Number 13, please.
[42:56] So, these are some of the things that
[42:58] you would that you would ask about. Is
[43:00] there a quorum? Is there a deliberation?
[43:02] And we don't know what that means,
[43:04] between the governing body members. And
[43:06] are they discussing public business? So
[43:09] again, all three of those need to be
[43:12] present for there to be a quorum and
[43:15] there be an issue with the open meetings
[43:17] act. Okay? Got to have the quorum. Got
[43:20] to have public
[43:24] being discussed and is that a long
[43:26] detailed conversation between those
[43:28] members? 14, please.
[43:39] Oh, I got the same. I guess I got the
[43:40] same one. Um 15.
[43:45] Okay. So,
[43:48] there's a gathering by and this gets
[43:50] into We were talking about the two
[43:51] definitions gathering by a governing
[43:53] body and a called meeting by the
[43:56] governing body. Still the same rules are
[43:58] going to apply if there's a staff member
[44:01] present.
[44:02] Is there a quorum? Is there are you
[44:05] receiving information from the third
[44:07] party? Well, yeah. So, is the
[44:09] information concerning public visits in
[44:11] control of the public visit and control
[44:12] of the governing body? So if Bris is
[44:15] giving everybody an update and there
[44:16] happen to be five council members there,
[44:19] yeah, you got a meeting. All those
[44:22] things, all those things are present. So
[44:23] just because it's an employee, as
[44:25] wonderful as it's still a meeting 16,
[44:29] please.
[44:37] Now, we've kind of talked about this, so
[44:39] I think everybody's going to get this
[44:40] one. So this is the Christmas party. Is
[44:42] there a liberation is public business
[44:44] being discussed now in general the
[44:47] Christmas party. No, because that's not
[44:50] going to happen. You are going to talk
[44:51] about, you know, Jesus, what he's done
[44:53] for us, the forgiveness, you know, those
[44:54] those kind of of wonderful and good
[44:56] things. And no sarcasm is intended there
[44:58] because I believe in Jesus Christ as my
[45:00] Lord and Savior. But the point is, if if
[45:04] city business starts to be discussed by
[45:07] three people gathered together, doesn't
[45:09] mean it doesn't mean it will be. Okay?
[45:12] Uh I actually from my experience in 26
[45:14] years most of the time at parties like
[45:16] this most of the time it's not I mean
[45:18] some things comments maybe will be made
[45:20] but there's not a quote long detailed
[45:23] conversation about things that are under
[45:25] the control of the governing body. So
[45:30] even though that's specifically an
[45:31] exception that you can get them all
[45:32] together the other things still have to
[45:34] be present for it to be considered a
[45:36] meeting. Uh 17,
[45:41] the mayor's office. You know, the mayor
[45:43] loves to have people in his office when
[45:45] he has gathering. Again, as wonderful as
[45:48] our mayor is, and we're going to have a
[45:50] statue of him before he uh leaves. We
[45:52] all know that. Is the gathering is it
[45:54] been called by the governing body? Is
[45:56] there a quorum present? Are they
[45:57] receiving information from the third
[45:59] party? Is that not just that is the
[46:02] information about again, hey, I want to
[46:04] give you all information about the uh
[46:06] Mr. powers to give information about the
[46:08] Charlie Kirk uh and there's a quorum
[46:09] present. You're having a long detailed
[46:11] conversation about that. It is not
[46:12] information about which the governing
[46:15] body has control. So all of those
[46:19] factors like I said you read it and it's
[46:22] pretty simple but then when you go out
[46:23] and in practice sometimes it'd be a bit
[46:25] confusing to do but all those have to be
[46:28] present. 18 please.
[46:34] Um,
[46:38] yeah, this this comes up all the time.
[46:40] Well, hey, can we go to commissioner's
[46:41] court? What happens if we all go to
[46:43] commissioner's court? Well, okay, here
[46:46] you have a situation where I think it's
[46:48] fine if the entire council wants to go
[46:50] to the county commissioner the the
[46:51] commissioner's court meetings.
[46:54] I don't want there to be any kind of
[46:57] long detailed conversation
[46:59] by a for quum of the council
[47:02] over which that governing body has
[47:04] authority. So going to the
[47:06] commissioner's court meeting is fine.
[47:09] Going to the RCH meeting is fine. Going
[47:11] to whatever meeting you want to go to is
[47:14] fine. My my warning is always be real
[47:16] careful about when you get together and
[47:18] you you talk about different things. Now
[47:20] there's other things that people What
[47:22] about this? We're gonna get we still got
[47:23] a ways to go. So, we're going to get
[47:25] into other stuff. I just want to lay the
[47:28] basic groundwork so y'all don't think
[47:30] again kind of like what I said at the
[47:32] beginning. I don't want y'all to think
[47:33] that, oh crap, we're going to get in
[47:35] trouble because there's a quorum here.
[47:36] No, no, no, no. There are still other
[47:38] considerations and other questions that
[47:40] need to be asked and answered in the
[47:42] affirmative before people need to start
[47:45] worrying about the fact that we've got a
[47:46] quorum of a governing body or board
[47:50] commission present. Uh, Please.
[47:56] Um,
[47:59] now this one's a little bit different.
[48:00] It's kind of interesting. Look at the
[48:03] second question. Is there deliberation
[48:05] by a city council and another person? Is
[48:08] there discussion public business in
[48:10] control of the city? So, you can have
[48:13] members of the city council talking
[48:16] about somebody. Let's say, hey, look,
[48:18] this is where you need as a resident,
[48:20] not only Chis Rockall County. I don't
[48:23] want the outer loop going right here. It
[48:25] needs to be moved over here. Well,
[48:27] that's not I mean I guess they're trying
[48:29] to screw us over and put us there, but
[48:31] you get you're talking about where it's
[48:32] going to go in the county, not
[48:34] necessarily specific to the city. That
[48:36] y'all can all talk about that. That is
[48:39] not an area of which y'all have control.
[48:42] Y'all aren't in control of where that
[48:44] goes. You You may have an opinion and a
[48:46] say and may maybe they might listen to
[48:48] you on that. we can get along with
[48:50] everybody, but that is not something
[48:52] that we as a city have control over. So
[48:55] again, trying to put y'all on a bunch of
[48:58] different scenarios, help y'all see that
[49:00] these same rules apply.
[49:04] >> Yeah.
[49:09] » Right. For them. So
[49:12] it seems like what you're tell
[49:28] here's the thing we're going to get into
[49:30] a little bit of that. Well, but it's not
[49:32] it's not Toma like okay. No, does it
[49:36] apply to what situation does it apply
[49:38] to? If everybody if we've got four a
[49:40] quorum of our council going up there and
[49:42] discussing with the the county
[49:45] commissioner and they're playing off of
[49:47] each other, the council members are
[49:50] playing off of each other. I don't care.
[49:51] I don't represent the county. I don't
[49:53] care what they do. That's their
[49:54] business. My concern is if you have you
[49:57] going up and made statement and then
[49:59] mayor prochem going up. Oh yeah, you
[50:01] know what? I agree with council member
[50:02] Dean because this is what and you've got
[50:04] control over that. You've got control
[50:06] over that. Now you run the risk of a
[50:08] quorum there because y'all are all
[50:09] discussing city business that you have
[50:12] control over without it being posted as
[50:14] a meeting. That's the problem. Now, if
[50:16] it is something like, hey, this is going
[50:18] to affect the county and the county as a
[50:20] whole, blah, blah, and Tim gets I agree
[50:22] with council member Dean or maybe just
[50:24] because you're rich Dean there. Uh, I
[50:26] agree with him, blah, blah, blah. That
[50:27] the way that's going to affect the
[50:28] county. Y'all don't have control over
[50:31] that. That is not a violation. You don't
[50:33] need it posted. Things like that. So,
[50:36] it's not just a I hear what you're
[50:38] saying about Toma applies, but I want
[50:41] you to understand how it applies to you,
[50:43] to you, to you, to you, to you, to you,
[50:47] and to me. That's what I'm trying to get
[50:49] us to understand. So, just us going up
[50:52] there and talking, even if all four of
[50:54] them say, "Yeah, we all agree." If y'all
[50:57] all four went up there and said, "We all
[50:59] agree as a whole that this shouldn't be
[51:03] happening in Rockall County, this part,
[51:04] whatever, but it's not in Mlin Chisum."
[51:07] That's not a revelation of
[51:08] >> what you're saying
[51:14] about
[51:15] >> Yes, that's a good way to phrase it.
[51:17] » Yes, that's a good way to phrase it.
[51:18] That that meeting enemy I like that. I
[51:20] like maybe that's a better way to to
[51:21] phrase it if that if that helps. So I
[51:23] I'm going to copy that. You know Oscar
[51:25] Wild said plagiarism has form of
[51:26] flatter. So I'm flattering you. So
[51:28] that's right. The meeting within a
[51:30] meeting just because the big meeting we
[51:33] aren't protected by Toma too because
[51:35] there was no just said the city council
[51:37] mint and Chisum is going to be at the
[51:39] county commissioners meeting and they're
[51:40] going to meet deliberate about XYZ.
[51:43] There you go. I thank you very much for
[51:45] that. I like him. It's good. Uh 2019,
[51:49] what is it next? Okay. All right. Now,
[51:53] here's the instant messaging board. So,
[51:55] we have Do we have anything on our
[51:57] website for this or whatever?
[52:00] >> Instant messaging like message board or
[52:01] » Instant messaging like message board or
[52:02] anything like that digital like
[52:04] >> we don't. Okay. Uh I mean, all right.
[52:06] » we don't. Okay. Uh I mean, all right.
[52:06] Well, I don't want to get too much into
[52:07] it. Um, but there are specific rules and
[52:11] guidelines if you have a messaging
[52:13] board, like how long you can keep the
[52:14] message, you know, you got to be careful
[52:16] about how quickly you respond or don't
[52:18] respond or this this type of thing. And
[52:20] that's all laid out. And 55106,
[52:23] if y'all want to go and and and look at
[52:26] that when we get uh maybe it'll need
[52:29] more discussion once we get if we get
[52:31] one of those things.
[52:43] Well, two things. As usual, you always
[52:46] are far ahead of me, Mr. Goodwin. Thank
[52:47] you so much for making me look bad. I
[52:49] appreciate that. We're going to get into
[52:51] more of that,
[52:53] but specifically messaging boards like
[52:56] this. cities only allowed to have one on
[52:59] the website and this is a specific
[53:00] statutory
[53:02] uh section to govern that specifically.
[53:05] But we're gonna we're definitely getting
[53:06] into more of that. Uh 21, please.
[53:23] Well, we're not under that specific one,
[53:25] but we're going to get into what that
[53:26] stuff is. So, yeah.
[53:29] So, um
[53:32] I mean this is probably more for for
[53:34] breeze because he's got to set it up,
[53:36] you know, about when you can respond to
[53:37] posts. Uh like I mentioned to you just a
[53:39] minute ago, how long you respond to
[53:40] posts, uh how long they have to be up,
[53:43] you know, you can't take any action,
[53:45] things like that. That's specifically
[53:46] for the message board that we have uh on
[53:49] the website. 22, please.
[53:53] Now, now we're going to get into notice
[53:55] requirements. Some of them have changed,
[53:58] but this is this is constantly something
[54:00] that and and Angela has been fantastic
[54:02] to work with, but because she doesn't
[54:05] just take it for granted. She's always
[54:06] talking about, hey, how should items be
[54:08] worded on the agenda? What and what I
[54:10] actually appreciate about the mayor. The
[54:12] mayor will email me and say, "Hey, look,
[54:14] this is what I want on the agenda, uh,
[54:16] you know, how if I need to change the
[54:17] wording, let me know." Like, and I
[54:19] really appreciate that because there are
[54:21] rules and regulations about how, again,
[54:24] they're going to be general and then you
[54:26] got to kind of have some statutory
[54:27] construction, maybe some case law, AG
[54:29] opinions, things like that about how
[54:31] that plays out. So, 23, please.
[54:37] All right. Uh, this one I wanted to
[54:39] leave up because I want you all know how
[54:41] long does it take the notice of meeting
[54:43] to have be posted. A, B, C, or D?
[54:53] » All right, going on to the next one.
[54:56] I left up the old one because it's all
[54:58] changed now. It's not 72 hours anymore.
[55:01] It's kind of a trick question. I want to
[55:02] see who I could fool. The law has just
[55:05] changed. So now you have to have three
[55:08] full business days, not including the
[55:11] day of the meeting and I think not
[55:14] including the day that you post. So you
[55:17] post like you post on a Monday, Tuesday,
[55:20] Wednesday, Thursday, you can have a
[55:22] meeting on Monday. We're different
[55:24] because we're closed on Fridays. So
[55:26] Friday is not a business day. So it
[55:28] doesn't count. I told you the state
[55:30] legislature does whatever they can to
[55:31] make life more difficult for us. So now
[55:34] we have meetings on Tuesday. We need to
[55:36] get everything posted by the previous
[55:38] Tuesday. Uh because then you've got
[55:40] Wednesday, Thursday, and Monday. Boom.
[55:42] And we have a meeting on on Tuesday. So
[55:45] it's very important that everybody, you
[55:47] know, if you need anything to get it to
[55:49] Angela in plenty of time that we can now
[55:52] post uh 25.
[55:56] All right. Now we're getting to what is
[56:00] sufficient notice. Now you look at the
[56:04] far right. Sufficient to alert the
[56:06] public in general terms
[56:10] of the subject that will be considered
[56:12] in the meeting. I've had city uh
[56:15] officials ask me, well wait, we we can
[56:18] just meet about that because we've got
[56:19] executive session on the agenda. Well, I
[56:22] go look and they mean literally, not
[56:26] figuratively. They have executive
[56:28] session on the agenda and they think
[56:29] they can talk about whatever they want.
[56:31] again. No, no, no, no, no. Those are
[56:35] exceptions. And you've got to have an
[56:37] idea. You can't just hide what you want
[56:39] to talk about. You got to have something
[56:42] even on executive session items. So,
[56:45] while they won't be per pre peri privy
[56:47] to the discussions in executive session,
[56:50] you got to have an idea and give the
[56:52] public an idea generally what you're
[56:55] going to be talking about in executive
[56:57] session. So we like we did last night is
[57:00] a great example. The 8.2 that Oh, thank
[57:03] you very much for that. The 8.2 item,
[57:06] the 8.2 item when we went executive
[57:08] session and it was fine the way it was
[57:10] written on the agenda to be able to go
[57:12] into executive session because they
[57:14] don't know what we're talking about in
[57:16] there. They don't have to know the the
[57:18] discussions, but they know the general
[57:20] subject matter that was discussion
[57:22] executive session. And that that is what
[57:26] the open meetings act requires. So you
[57:29] you can't just cart blunch, leave it
[57:32] wide open that we're just going to have.
[57:34] That was like the funniest thing. Well,
[57:37] at the time it really wasn't that funny
[57:38] when Yeah, we've got on the agenda. What
[57:40] do you got on the agenda? Exact session.
[57:43] But you don't have to have it on that
[57:45] you want to talk about the chief of
[57:46] police. Well, we got executive session.
[57:48] They literally thought that was enough.
[57:50] Okay. So, um
[57:54] the well and I put rule of thumb because
[57:57] but there's actually some case law on
[57:59] this for example everybody puts an
[58:02] executive session for
[58:05] um for uh personnel 551074
[58:09] A1 discuss and consider the dismissal
[58:12] reassignment uh of duties etc of a
[58:15] public officer employee to wit and then
[58:18] they'll put the title okay that's all
[58:19] you need to put now here's what's
[58:21] interesting is
[58:23] if you just put police officer,
[58:26] that doesn't require as much notice as
[58:28] if you put chief of police right there.
[58:32] The more important the particular
[58:33] subject is to the public, the more
[58:36] specific the notice needs to read. So
[58:39] again, if you're going to discuss a
[58:41] police officer, don't mean to offend
[58:43] anybody, but that is not as heightened
[58:46] in interest to the public as the chief
[58:49] of police. Good example is somebody big
[58:52] like Dallas or Fort Worth. Do you all
[58:55] ever take notice if you saw a police
[58:57] officer on the agenda? Probably not.
[59:01] Maybe if you knew him or her, then maybe
[59:03] so. Now, are you going to look at a
[59:05] little closer? If you see on the agenda
[59:07] the Fort Worth Chief of Police. Yeah.
[59:11] Yeah. So, that's what we're talking
[59:12] about. The more important a particular
[59:14] uh subject is, the more specific you
[59:17] need to be. So, that's great for us. We
[59:19] know that every single person in the
[59:21] city of Mlin Chisum there is a
[59:23] physiological of the change that goes
[59:25] through them once they pass our borders
[59:27] and become a resident here and they care
[59:29] about every bit of land use that goes
[59:31] on. So I know that about this. So Angela
[59:34] and I get together and we go into a
[59:36] little bit more detail anytime we put
[59:38] information about about plats. You see
[59:41] her when she talks about you know
[59:42] discuss consider uh approving a plat for
[59:45] 8.2 2 acres out of the WB Warfield
[59:48] survey generally blah blah blah you know
[59:50] number whatever the number is uh blah
[59:52] blah blah generally located at the
[59:53] southwest corner of 550 and whatever
[59:56] okay that's that's a lot more detail
[59:59] than you put on a lot of other agenda
[1:00:01] items okay um that's that's real
[1:00:05] important to understand too of why we
[1:00:07] put things on the agenda the way we the
[1:00:09] way we do uh 26
[1:00:16] Okay,
[1:00:18] this one's pretty easy because Angela
[1:00:20] does a fantastic job. Anybody know where
[1:00:23] you're supposed to put uh a copy of the
[1:00:25] agenda,
[1:00:30] » man. You know what? I'm gonna have to
[1:00:31] stop you from like you're not allowed to
[1:00:32] enter anything. People forget a lot
[1:00:34] about the website and this is me. It
[1:00:37] doesn't matter how long I've been doing
[1:00:38] this. I I had pretty sharp several years
[1:00:40] ago had a pretty
[1:00:42] city secretary and uh it was a small
[1:00:45] town about 900 people so you know she's
[1:00:48] not as refined as say Angela is or
[1:00:49] somebody is super nice lady loved
[1:00:52] working with her and we're going along I
[1:00:55] don't even remember how it came up
[1:00:56] they're once a month you know type
[1:00:58] meetings and um she mentioned something
[1:01:01] about I said wait a minute you have a
[1:01:03] website
[1:01:05] I've been here for like two and a half
[1:01:06] three years she's like yeah you know
[1:01:08] there's a website I'm like you do do you
[1:01:11] post the agenda on the website? She's
[1:01:13] like, well, no. Do we have to? I'm like,
[1:01:14] oh my gosh. I'm like, technically, yes.
[1:01:18] Posting it on the website is just as
[1:01:21] important as posting it in a conspicuous
[1:01:24] place in city hall. Okay. And thank you
[1:01:27] to Angela for being here. We had a while
[1:01:30] back, we had a city secretary that would
[1:01:34] post, and I remember this because of a
[1:01:36] certain lawsuit we're involved in a
[1:01:38] blank agenda for August the 5th, 2021.
[1:01:42] We didn't have a meeting. Why Why are
[1:01:44] you Why are you posting a blanket
[1:01:46] template agenda for a meeting that we
[1:01:48] didn't even have? Causes a lot of issue.
[1:01:51] Okay? So, you got to know what to post
[1:01:53] and what not to post on there. So, it
[1:01:56] doesn't do anything. Maybe she'll post,
[1:01:58] "Hey, Daryus canled the meeting." Boom.
[1:02:00] Puts on the website so the citizens
[1:02:01] know. Okay? But you're not going to post
[1:02:03] a blank agenda. But that's how important
[1:02:07] the website is in addition to posting it
[1:02:09] in a conspicuous place. Uh, next one,
[1:02:12] please. 287.
[1:02:16] All right. What uh what does the notice
[1:02:19] of the of the meeting versus the agenda?
[1:02:21] Okay. Agenda is not really defined by
[1:02:26] the open means act. Okay, we we have
[1:02:29] kind of created the term agenda as
[1:02:32] that's a again 311 011 words are given
[1:02:36] their plain ordinary meaning and what do
[1:02:38] I have there black's law dictionary
[1:02:40] because that's what attorneys love to
[1:02:41] use a list of things be done that's just
[1:02:44] what we're doing these are the things
[1:02:45] we're going to do at our meeting so
[1:02:48] that's an agenda that's what we have
[1:02:51] that's why we came up with that 28
[1:02:52] please
[1:02:57] Uh, well, we already gone through this.
[1:02:59] I jumped a little bit ahead. I guess I'm
[1:03:00] channeling my inner Mr. Goodwin 29.
[1:03:02] Please
[1:03:05] say there's posing because now we all
[1:03:07] know I left it on there. So now we know
[1:03:09] that it's actually for three business
[1:03:11] days and it's still got to follow all
[1:03:15] the same posting requirements
[1:03:17] of the Now the one reason I have it up
[1:03:20] there is to remember if there's been an
[1:03:22] attempt to post it on the website and
[1:03:25] this has happened on occasion um that
[1:03:28] you attempt to post on the website and
[1:03:31] something happens that is beyond our
[1:03:33] control a technical diff and that's
[1:03:35] actually does
[1:03:37] It's not I'll just say it's not uncommon
[1:03:40] and let's say there is a day and a half
[1:03:42] that it wasn't on the web. We're still
[1:03:44] fine. We can still go that is exception
[1:03:47] 043 that talks about hey you know what
[1:03:50] if there's a good faith attempt to post
[1:03:51] the agenda but there's a technical
[1:03:53] difficulty which makes it non-compliant
[1:03:56] with the the posting rule three business
[1:03:58] days we're still good. So, it's it's
[1:04:01] important to be aware of things. You
[1:04:03] want to make sure it's fixed, but nobody
[1:04:05] worry if there's a true technical
[1:04:06] difficulty. We're going to be okay. Uh
[1:04:09] 30, please.
[1:04:14] That's an example of what agenda looks
[1:04:16] like. Uh Angela's already got this
[1:04:18] nailed down. Um so, we're we're good to
[1:04:22] go on that one.
[1:04:25] 31. Sorry.
[1:04:28] All right. Um we may We go back and Oh,
[1:04:31] no. We got I got it written in there.
[1:04:32] Good. Yay. Me. So, are four and five on
[1:04:35] the agenda? Are they sufficient to
[1:04:38] notice the inform the public of the
[1:04:40] subject to be discussed?
[1:04:45] Yes. And no.
[1:05:03] All right. It's not. In fact, I can't
[1:05:06] stand it. I can't stand city managers
[1:05:08] report, mayor's report. I mean, like
[1:05:10] whatever that is just opening up the
[1:05:13] door to having a what's it? Long
[1:05:17] detailed conversation about whatever
[1:05:19] they want to whatever they want to talk
[1:05:20] about. Hate it. Hate it. Hate it. I also
[1:05:22] think the AG opinions back me up on
[1:05:25] that. I think mayor's report and our
[1:05:28] mayor does a great job on that updating
[1:05:31] the uh the uh reclamation and
[1:05:34] restoration in Kirk County like stuff
[1:05:36] like that he puts on the agenda. Now
[1:05:39] there still doesn't need to be
[1:05:40] discussion on that any kind of long
[1:05:41] detail conversation but he can give an
[1:05:44] update talk about it so we do a good job
[1:05:47] on that. But again, you see all the time
[1:05:49] a lot of cities have departmental
[1:05:52] reports, police report, fire report,
[1:05:54] code enforcement, public works report,
[1:05:56] all those things. Okay, I guess you can
[1:05:59] just give the report, but you can't
[1:06:00] really talk about it. You can't discuss
[1:06:02] it. I mean, you know, there's no there's
[1:06:04] none of that on there. So, it's real
[1:06:06] important to remember what do you want
[1:06:09] to do with an agenda item? What is it
[1:06:11] you want to have? If you just want to
[1:06:13] let people know about it, we could do
[1:06:16] that. There's nothing almost almost
[1:06:20] nothing is illegal to have a meeting.
[1:06:23] What I mean by that is people think you
[1:06:26] are procluded from having discussion on
[1:06:29] the uh with a public during a meeting.
[1:06:32] How many thinks you can't have a
[1:06:33] discussion with the public during the
[1:06:34] meeting?
[1:06:36] >> Like having a back and forth discussion
[1:06:38] » Like having a back and forth discussion
[1:06:38] with the public.
[1:06:43] It's a trick question. If it's not on
[1:06:45] the agenda, absolutely not 100%. But I
[1:06:50] have put on the agenda in certain
[1:06:51] situations discuss with the public
[1:06:54] council and uh public discuss I 8.2 uh
[1:06:59] platform blah blah blah whatever. Now
[1:07:02] whether you want to do that or not is a
[1:07:04] that's a policy question. It's not
[1:07:07] illegal and you can actually do that. I
[1:07:09] don't think it's the best policy, but I
[1:07:12] have a handful of times in my career
[1:07:14] help city councils do that to to to to
[1:07:17] foster a public discussion between the
[1:07:20] these citizens that are there, the
[1:07:22] general public and the governing body.
[1:07:24] So that's Mr. Goodwin was on top of
[1:07:26] things. That's that's the issue. Is it
[1:07:28] on the agenda? Uh 33, please.
[1:07:35] Now these are specific statutory
[1:07:37] exceptions. Again, I like that word that
[1:07:40] you can do this. So like when the mayor
[1:07:43] when he gets up there and he goes, "Hey,
[1:07:44] you know what? Beginning of every
[1:07:46] meeting, we like to pick a a name from
[1:07:48] the hat. We like to honor somebody
[1:07:49] that's fallen." Boom. That is
[1:07:51] congratulations, exception. Uh uh
[1:07:53] condolences or thanks. I got no problem
[1:07:55] with that. And he gives a little bit of
[1:07:57] detail about the person that we're
[1:07:59] honoring. that fits exactly in
[1:08:02] with the items of community interest
[1:08:04] because those are things that that
[1:08:06] typically generally normally there may
[1:08:08] be some people out there that aren't
[1:08:10] interested in in that or don't care
[1:08:12] about it or whatever but typically
[1:08:13] generally normally the general person is
[1:08:15] going to be interested in that and they
[1:08:17] are going to want to know about that. So
[1:08:18] there's that would be falling under one
[1:08:20] of the uh exceptions uh 34 please
[1:08:25] because I want to get to the thing that
[1:08:26] you asked about earlier. So, I'm trying
[1:08:27] to to hot foot it. Oh,
[1:08:31] well, we're gonna get All right. I'm I'm
[1:08:32] gonna go faster. So, uh 35. Let me see
[1:08:35] if it's I can't remember if it's next or
[1:08:36] not.
[1:08:40] Okay. Do you all know about this one?
[1:08:41] Can city council change a council
[1:08:44] meeting from one date to another without
[1:08:46] changing it on the agenda?
[1:08:51] Next slide.
[1:08:55] Ah, see I catch you on that. No, you
[1:08:57] can't. All that's got to be done
[1:09:00] per the uh agenda per at a meeting and
[1:09:03] it nothing can be done in that three-day
[1:09:06] business period. Can't make any changes
[1:09:08] to it. I actually had one city secretary
[1:09:11] and I almost had a literal heart attack
[1:09:15] uh because she told somebody, "Well,
[1:09:16] yeah, you posted the original agenda
[1:09:18] correctly on Monday and then Tuesday
[1:09:21] came around. You can add something to it
[1:09:22] and just you don't even have to How are
[1:09:25] you secretary? You need to be fired
[1:09:26] immediately. What are you talking about?
[1:09:28] I can't believe that you would say
[1:09:29] that." Like that was my reaction in my
[1:09:30] head. No, that agenda can't be changed
[1:09:34] once it's posted um from that first day.
[1:09:38] leave it for the business days. You're
[1:09:40] stuck with that with that agenda. Um,
[1:09:43] and even in a quote addendum, you just
[1:09:45] can't go add stuff to the agenda and
[1:09:47] think you're going to comply with the
[1:09:48] open meetings act. Now, my example was,
[1:09:51] oh, okay, like even for the rule, we
[1:09:53] post it on Monday for a meeting on the
[1:09:55] next Monday. Why don't I just put one
[1:09:57] item on the agenda and then Monday
[1:10:00] morning, the day of the meeting, add 15
[1:10:02] more? Like, that didn't make it didn't
[1:10:04] make any sense. So, next slide, please.
[1:10:11] Uh, old business. I think we've already
[1:10:13] covered that. You already know the
[1:10:14] answer. Next slide, please. Yeah. No, I
[1:10:17] I I I hate stuff like that. There's got
[1:10:18] to be more. What old business, for
[1:10:20] example? Um, then that's what you see.
[1:10:23] If I'm gonna Good rule of thumb, if I'm
[1:10:25] going to put an item on the agenda, um,
[1:10:29] what I what is it that I want to talk
[1:10:31] about? That's where you start. So, you
[1:10:33] can come to me and email me and say,
[1:10:34] "This is what I want to talk about. How
[1:10:36] I need to put it on the agenda. Now, the
[1:10:39] mayor has sent me, hey, this is my
[1:10:41] agenda items. It's seven and a half
[1:10:42] pages. Do you think I'm like, okay, we
[1:10:43] can cut that down a little bit, mayor.
[1:10:45] It's it's okay. So, it it doesn't have
[1:10:48] to be too much. So, I I don't want to
[1:10:51] freak everybody out. But you start with
[1:10:53] the first question should be, what is it
[1:10:54] that I want to talk about? Uh, next
[1:10:56] slide, please.
[1:11:05] What do y'all think about that one?
[1:11:10] » That says public testimony.
[1:11:18] » That is the agenda item. Public
[1:11:20] testimony. So the question is, does that
[1:11:22] agenda item give the public a right to
[1:11:24] speak at open meeting on that?
[1:11:35] All right, next slide.
[1:11:39] Remember what and say I'm going to go
[1:11:41] back to this and y'all going to say
[1:11:43] like, oh, you know what? He may be
[1:11:44] crazy, but I get his logic now. The
[1:11:46] overarching principle, what are meetings
[1:11:49] for? So the public participates and the
[1:11:52] public knows. So, yes. And I'm just
[1:11:55] going to tell y'all, I will always defer
[1:11:59] always defer to giving the public like
[1:12:01] the mayor and bless him. I love the man.
[1:12:04] I don't necessarily have a problem, but
[1:12:05] even he could control the meeting and
[1:12:07] say, "Look, everybody that signed up,
[1:12:10] that's that's why we have you signed up
[1:12:11] so we know who's going to speak." But
[1:12:13] then he goes and says, "Hey, I'm going
[1:12:15] to make sure that everybody else does
[1:12:17] anybody else want to speak?" Okay. He
[1:12:19] could legally we get to define yes they
[1:12:23] have a right to speak but we get to
[1:12:24] define the parameters of how they do it.
[1:12:26] So the mayor could absolutely go we have
[1:12:29] rules you sign up fill out the sheet
[1:12:31] before the meeting starts and it's
[1:12:33] Angela that's what we're limiting to but
[1:12:35] he also goes the extra mile and I mean
[1:12:38] granted it can make the meeting last
[1:12:39] because we have more people talk but you
[1:12:41] know what that's keeping with the big
[1:12:43] overarching principle of of what we of
[1:12:47] what we of what we do. So there is zero
[1:12:49] issue with that. Uh no no judge is going
[1:12:52] to come down on somebody because they
[1:12:54] gave the public too much too many
[1:12:56] opportunities to speak. Uh 41 please.
[1:13:08] » Absolutely. Yes.
[1:13:13] Right.
[1:13:26] And that is what the law is. I mean, we
[1:13:28] we can either say, look, everybody is at
[1:13:30] the beginning of we can limit everybody
[1:13:31] to the beginning. You can't put them at
[1:13:33] the end, put them at the beginning, or
[1:13:35] you can say, hey, look, we're going to
[1:13:37] just let everybody sign up for whatever
[1:13:38] agenda item they want to talk on. That
[1:13:40] tends to make the meetings quite long.
[1:13:43] on certain things. So I like how we do
[1:13:45] it. Let everybody speak about whatever
[1:13:46] they want to speak about at the
[1:13:47] beginning because we have a regular
[1:13:50] routine I think of public hearings. So
[1:13:52] there's another opportunity for them to
[1:13:53] speak at that time uh as well. So here
[1:13:56] is and this is something comes up quite
[1:13:58] normally. What can people get away with
[1:14:01] when they're speaking up there?
[1:14:04] My general rule is I almost let them say
[1:14:09] whatever they want to say. I really
[1:14:12] really have a difficult time abridging
[1:14:14] their rights, but there are some
[1:14:15] restrictions put on them. Yes, sir.
[1:14:24] » That is what they're supposed to do
[1:14:25] because yes, it is citizen comments to
[1:14:28] the public. Yes,
[1:14:34] » the mayor the mayor can absolutely step
[1:14:35] in and say, "Hey, look, you need address
[1:14:38] of comments, you know, but I I got to
[1:14:42] speak up for the mayor a little bit. I
[1:14:43] think he does a good job running the
[1:14:44] meetings. I I'm you know he he's if he
[1:14:46] air heirs it's on the side of giving
[1:14:48] people too much of an opportunity which
[1:14:50] is always the side you want to air on.
[1:14:57] » Um so you know you can't get up there
[1:14:59] and yell and scream and and defame or uh
[1:15:02] abuse people and use indecent language.
[1:15:05] You can't do that kind of stuff. Um you
[1:15:07] know so there are some guidelines. Go
[1:15:10] ahead.
[1:15:12] Oh, no, no, no, no. Look, here's the
[1:15:15] thing. I And I They're gone now, so I
[1:15:18] can say it. I was about um You may
[1:15:20] remember the council members better than
[1:15:22] me, even though you weren't you were in
[1:15:23] Lancaster at the time. I was in a
[1:15:24] Duncanville meeting, and they were
[1:15:26] talking about two council members could
[1:15:28] not stand each other, but I did got
[1:15:29] physical. And I said, "Look,
[1:15:32] if the meeting is going on,
[1:15:35] I don't care if one council member stabs
[1:15:37] the other one. Make sure he's safe. Make
[1:15:39] sure take his knife away. You can
[1:15:40] handcuff from the chair, but you don't
[1:15:42] arrest them during the meeting. You wait
[1:15:44] until after the meeting. That's how
[1:15:46] sacrosanct I think legislative immunity
[1:15:49] is. And really, the only time that y'all
[1:15:52] have immunity is when you're acting as
[1:15:53] legislators. Well, when is that?
[1:15:56] When you're up here now. Okay, Council
[1:15:59] Dean, that doesn't mean you go slug
[1:16:01] somebody, you know, during the meeting
[1:16:02] and say, "Oh, Michael said it's okay."
[1:16:04] That is not what I'm saying. But I'm
[1:16:05] trying to give you an example of how
[1:16:07] sacroanked I think the legislative
[1:16:10] immunity uh principle really is. Um
[1:16:14] and I think the mayor the mayor kind of
[1:16:16] like it was kind of cool. He he had you
[1:16:18] did somebody have a meeting I think
[1:16:20] didn't you with the scuba Steve.
[1:16:22] >> Yeah. Yeah. That was pretty so right
[1:16:24] » Yeah. Yeah. That was pretty so right
[1:16:24] there. Disrupting a meeting by physical
[1:16:26] uh action or uh verbal utterance that is
[1:16:29] actually also in the government code. So
[1:16:31] uh Mr.
[1:16:33] >> Oh yeah yeah yeah. He kind of I think he
[1:16:35] » Oh yeah yeah yeah. He kind of I think he
[1:16:35] kind of enjoyed it though. Tweeting me
[1:16:38] pretty much on the third.
[1:16:40] >> Oh yeah. Well, he was warned and then he
[1:16:42] » Oh yeah. Well, he was warned and then he
[1:16:42] just did it. Yeah. I I think he was a
[1:16:44] little irritated because he got the
[1:16:45] warning after the first time. He's like,
[1:16:46] "Well, I got to do it two more times
[1:16:48] now." I think that's what he did. Uh
[1:16:52] >> yeah. Yeah. See? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I
[1:16:54] » yeah. Yeah. See? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I
[1:16:54] think Yeah. Um Okay. Uh 42, please.
[1:17:00] Okay. Um
[1:17:05] So, these are good rules for
[1:17:09] um I don't I put third on there because
[1:17:12] that's in the statute, but really the
[1:17:13] two the two that you got to know of what
[1:17:17] can you respond to public if it's not on
[1:17:19] the agenda. You can state a fact. Hey,
[1:17:23] yeah, you know what? The Earth Day event
[1:17:24] is uh this Saturday, September the
[1:17:29] 7th. Yeah, Earth Day is September 27th.
[1:17:32] That's a fact. You can even not on
[1:17:34] there. Um, hey, our policy is to have
[1:17:38] the city manager present at Earth Day
[1:17:41] and he's the one uh doing all the dirty
[1:17:43] work. That's our you can you can say
[1:17:46] that that's a statement of the policy
[1:17:48] that we have. Those types of things you
[1:17:50] are allowed to do um without when the
[1:17:54] items aren't on the agenda. The issue
[1:17:56] becomes is not so much with the fact one
[1:17:59] but like a policy. Oh, well, you know,
[1:18:01] if that's a policy we had a city
[1:18:02] administrator, is he really going to be
[1:18:04] out there on Earth Day throwing trash
[1:18:05] away and doing? It leads to potential
[1:18:08] discussion of things. That's that's the
[1:18:10] concern that I have. But again, it's not
[1:18:13] my job to tell you uh to do it for you,
[1:18:16] tell you what the law is. I'm sharing
[1:18:18] you what the law is. I'm telling you
[1:18:19] what my concerns are so everybody can be
[1:18:21] aware of. 443,
[1:18:23] please.
[1:18:31] If I can run real fast through the the
[1:18:33] walking quorum. Do you really have to?
[1:18:35] Okay.
[1:18:36] >> Sorry. All right. I want to get there.
[1:18:37] » Sorry. All right. I want to get there.
[1:18:38] All right. Um,
[1:18:44] » you can get together with the other
[1:18:45] council members to talk about it if you
[1:18:47] want.
[1:18:52] » Absolutely. Yeah. See, he learned his
[1:18:53] lesson. Well, very nice. Very nice. All
[1:18:55] right. Uh can a may a governmental body
[1:18:58] continue a meeting the next day? So the
[1:19:00] meeting last night if council say hey
[1:19:02] look we want to continue it tomorrow.
[1:19:03] Can they do that?
[1:19:05] >> Anybody vote no?
[1:19:10] » Y all think that everybody thinks you
[1:19:11] can do that.
[1:19:18] » You go to 44 or 45 46 whatever. Yes you
[1:19:22] can. Yes.
[1:19:25] >> Yeah.
[1:19:26] » Yeah.
[1:19:26] I couldn't get anybody to bite on that.
[1:19:28] Sheesh, man. Um I just paid Eddie to say
[1:19:32] it off.
[1:19:35] >> Oh, really? So, yeah, I think come back
[1:19:37] » Oh, really? So, yeah, I think come back
[1:19:37] the next day. Uh 40 was 47.
[1:19:44] » All right. So, this this gets this comes
[1:19:47] up more often than you think. Can we
[1:19:50] call emergency meeting?
[1:19:52] Well, we got a real big problem where at
[1:19:55] all is out of toilet paper. It's a mess.
[1:19:57] It's It's an emergency. It's a No, it's
[1:19:59] not. Okay. I know it's not good. I know
[1:20:01] it's bad, but you know what? Uh uh send
[1:20:05] Angel out to the 7-Eleven and she can
[1:20:07] get some. So, understanding what an
[1:20:09] actual emergency is, like for example,
[1:20:12] Kirk County, that was an emergency. That
[1:20:15] was like a national disaster. I think I
[1:20:17] put it on here uh because it's been a
[1:20:19] while. Yeah. Fire, flood, earthquake,
[1:20:21] hurricane turnout, wind, rain, or
[1:20:23] snowstorm. Those are what we're talking
[1:20:25] about are the types of emergencies and
[1:20:27] it has been changed. You only have to
[1:20:30] give one hour notice. I mean I I don't
[1:20:33] know whether what I think about they
[1:20:35] change it from two hours to one but you
[1:20:36] got to give one hour notice. But that is
[1:20:39] um uh and I always have to do I always
[1:20:43] have to do the last one because I've
[1:20:44] been asked that
[1:20:46] you know 14 times for every city I've
[1:20:48] represented at the time. What do I
[1:20:49] forgot to put it on the agenda? Sorry.
[1:20:52] got to wait till the next meeting or you
[1:20:54] can call a special meeting. Next,
[1:20:56] please.
[1:21:03] » Will you go back to the last
[1:21:20] emergency?
[1:21:22] It's got to be for us. It's got to be
[1:21:24] for us. I was g So, I'm glad you asked
[1:21:27] about that. I I didn't know that I was
[1:21:28] confusing people, so I apologize. What I
[1:21:31] meant is if if Ker County was calling an
[1:21:34] emergency meeting, then for them that
[1:21:37] absolutely was a emergency. One hour was
[1:21:40] all the notice they needed post on the
[1:21:42] agenda, yada yada yada. So, thank you
[1:21:43] for
[1:21:45] uh Next one, Angela. I really like the
[1:21:47] slide, too, because it reminds me of of
[1:21:50] uh
[1:22:03] Angel was told me to put that in there.
[1:22:04] So, it wasn't my idea. Next one, please.
[1:22:08] All right. Guess who is the record
[1:22:11] keeper of the city?
[1:22:15] » 22073 right there. She is responsible
[1:22:18] for all the records and I'm so glad it
[1:22:21] is Angela now. Um she we had a huge
[1:22:25] issue yesterday a real uh fooar and uh
[1:22:29] our cluster if you watched Heartbreak
[1:22:31] Break Ridge with Cleanswood she fixed
[1:22:33] it. So thank you Angela you were
[1:22:35] fantastic. Um now what I also like about
[1:22:40] what Angela does is you see people
[1:22:43] coming in how much is really required in
[1:22:45] minutes? I've seen minutes that are a
[1:22:48] book. They're this long. You don't need
[1:22:50] all that stuff. There's no specific
[1:22:52] provisions. There's basically a minimum.
[1:22:54] What I prefer to have on there, I prefer
[1:22:57] to have the agenda item.
[1:23:00] Council member A made a motion. It was
[1:23:02] seconded by council member B. This was
[1:23:04] the vote. So, the motion passed or the
[1:23:07] motion failed, whatever. Boom. Now
[1:23:09] you're done with minutes. You move on to
[1:23:12] the next one. I don't like
[1:23:16] There's, again, I told you I like
[1:23:18] exceptions. I don't like a lot of
[1:23:19] details in the minutes because then
[1:23:21] you're stuck with them. What if
[1:23:23] something happened, somebody said
[1:23:24] something and that's not what they
[1:23:26] really said, boom, you're stuck with it.
[1:23:29] City of Austin, v. Whittington, 2005,
[1:23:32] Austin Court of Appeals. A city
[1:23:35] officially speaks through its
[1:23:37] ordinances, resolutions, and minutes,
[1:23:40] quote unquote. So, the minutes are very
[1:23:43] important. It's not just a
[1:23:46] that's a pain in the butt bookkeeping
[1:23:47] thing we got to do. I mean it is that
[1:23:49] but it's not just that. It is the
[1:23:52] official statement and you're stuck with
[1:23:54] it as a city. So they are important for
[1:23:57] that. Now there are certain things and
[1:24:00] it's a little more applicable to us than
[1:24:02] to some other people I represent. I do
[1:24:05] like a little more detail when it comes
[1:24:08] to city council delivering on things
[1:24:10] like zoning. Why is that? Well, if the
[1:24:13] zoning is ever contested, now we've got
[1:24:16] an official in the record
[1:24:19] what the city council considered and
[1:24:21] what people said when let's say you
[1:24:23] choose to deny it. And everybody said,
[1:24:25] "Well, it's going to cause pollution.
[1:24:26] It's going to cause noise. It really
[1:24:28] doesn't fit with the overall scheme, you
[1:24:30] know, in this area." Now, you've got all
[1:24:33] that in the minutes that the city
[1:24:35] council base their decision on. And a
[1:24:37] judge, whether they agree with it or
[1:24:38] not, they still have to consider. So,
[1:24:41] there are it's an exception. So there
[1:24:44] are times when
[1:24:46] less is more isn't the best way to do
[1:24:49] that. So um
[1:24:52] 48 or nine or whatever we're on now,
[1:24:59] B or D
[1:25:06] » forever. Okay.
[1:25:12] Why do you say just curiosity?
[1:25:15] >> Why did you say B out of curiosity?
[1:25:21] » Probably record retention act. Okay. All
[1:25:24] right. Uh so raise hands. Who says two
[1:25:28] years? Anybody? No. Who says five years?
[1:25:32] Okay. Who says 10 years?
[1:25:36] >> Okay. Who said forever? Anybody else say
[1:25:38] » Okay. Who said forever? Anybody else say
[1:25:38] forever? Okay. Dang, you got it right.
[1:25:43] Next one. Yes, we got to keep our reg.
[1:25:46] Well, that's still funny, but that's not
[1:25:48] the Yeah, I do. That is so us. That is
[1:25:52] so us.
[1:25:55] Yes, we are stuck with our records
[1:25:58] because there are people that are going
[1:26:00] to look for our I just did a lawsuit uh
[1:26:02] for a city and we were looking at
[1:26:04] ordinances the city had passed in 2008.
[1:26:07] Lawsuit started in 2022. So 14 years
[1:26:10] prior we were looking at those things.
[1:26:13] You got to keep got to keep records. Got
[1:26:15] to keep records.
[1:26:18] Now there are certain which is why I was
[1:26:20] asking about you the records retention
[1:26:22] act there are certain records minutes or
[1:26:26] recordings of meetings and things like
[1:26:27] that ordinances resolutions those are
[1:26:30] forever but there are certain things
[1:26:32] that and that's a it's a list on on the
[1:26:35] schedule that's five years and you just
[1:26:37] got to keep them and you're good you can
[1:26:38] toss them but our minutes and our
[1:26:41] ordinances are forever uh 50 Please.
[1:26:50] Now, uh we've got to record minutes uh
[1:26:53] record meetings because we are um uh
[1:26:57] we've been doing that. We've got the
[1:26:59] capability to do that and we've
[1:27:00] institute that. So, we got to continue
[1:27:02] to record the meetings and keep those uh
[1:27:04] recordings as well. There are, you know,
[1:27:07] if we were over 50,000 and or a county
[1:27:10] uh if both of those existed, then we'd
[1:27:11] have to as a matter of law. We have to
[1:27:14] because we chosen to start that. You
[1:27:15] can't really
[1:27:18] Which is why if you look at the first
[1:27:19] one, uh, make a video and audio
[1:27:22] recording of reasonable quality of each
[1:27:23] regular schedule. Why I've been so
[1:27:25] nervous until the mayor and Angela got
[1:27:27] here because our recordings have been
[1:27:29] crap for so long.
[1:27:31] So, um, I'm glad that we've got them and
[1:27:34] they have they have fixed that. Uh, 51.
[1:27:38] That's a good little thing for for
[1:27:39] Angela to know.
[1:27:43] So these are a little uh requirement 52.
[1:27:48] I like to throw some of those things in
[1:27:49] there. So can y'all hold a meeting if
[1:27:52] there is uh not a quorum present?
[1:28:01] » Anybody say no?
[1:28:07] All right. Go to 53.
[1:28:10] Here's why where I put no.
[1:28:14] You guys are right. Council member
[1:28:16] London, the mayor, y'all are right. But
[1:28:17] you're like, well, you put no. It's
[1:28:19] because it's not a meeting. Remember
[1:28:22] what our definition is. The first part
[1:28:25] of it is got to have a quorum. So, if
[1:28:27] you don't have a quorum, not a meeting.
[1:28:29] See, you guys were right, but you I
[1:28:32] helped you learn why you were right.
[1:28:35] >> Uh 54.
[1:28:42] Do not think it escaped my attention
[1:28:44] that your right-hand man is now for
[1:28:46] Reese and not me. Just, you know, just
[1:28:48] gonna say that. Uh, let's see.
[1:28:53] >> That's good for y'all just kind of have
[1:28:55] » That's good for y'all just kind of have
[1:28:55] an idea. You know, they can record the
[1:28:58] meetings because I know that we've had,
[1:29:02] you know, one or two citizens that like
[1:29:03] to record our meetings. They can choose
[1:29:05] to do that, but unlike what their
[1:29:07] position was, they can't just choose to
[1:29:09] do it wherever the heck they want to do
[1:29:10] it. They they can't cause a disruption.
[1:29:12] They can't be in the way. Um they can do
[1:29:15] it where the mayor uh as the one who
[1:29:17] runs the meeting sets it up. Um now, I
[1:29:21] know I had to tell the mayor on this one
[1:29:22] particular person uh we can't send them
[1:29:24] up to the second floor. And if y'all
[1:29:26] have a notice, we don't have a second
[1:29:27] floor. That would be the roof. He can't
[1:29:29] send it to the second floor to record
[1:29:30] it. But you can control, you know,
[1:29:33] generally where it is in in the meeting
[1:29:35] area. And same thing for P and D. I'd
[1:29:37] say the chair, you know, it happens.
[1:29:40] Same type same type of deal. Um 55.
[1:29:49] Now we're getting into the executive
[1:29:50] session. So this is more detail. Anybody
[1:29:53] needs a break, let me know. 56.
[1:29:58] All right. So, we actually we probably
[1:30:00] covered a little bit of this, but I want
[1:30:03] y'all to have the procedure because a
[1:30:05] PNZ ever goes in exact session.
[1:30:08] It's going to apply to y'all as well.
[1:30:10] So, the the PNC chair or the mayor as
[1:30:13] the case may be, y'all have the opening
[1:30:15] meeting, you convene, then you y'all are
[1:30:17] presiding officer. So, y'all are going
[1:30:18] to announce, hey, we're going into
[1:30:20] executive session and we're doing it on
[1:30:22] through this specific statute, you know,
[1:30:25] I don't know, 551087.
[1:30:28] up discussing to discuss an economic
[1:30:31] development uh project, you know, just
[1:30:34] by way of example and you quote the
[1:30:36] section and then you go now Angela knows
[1:30:38] you got to keep a copy of the certified
[1:30:40] agenda. Now you got two choices. You can
[1:30:44] keep a copy of certified agenda which is
[1:30:46] literally a piece of paper that is
[1:30:48] signed by the mayor and signed by the
[1:30:49] Angela and then we seal it up and it
[1:30:51] just says, "Hey, this is what was
[1:30:53] discussed exact session and that's it."
[1:30:55] Your other option is to have an actual
[1:30:58] recording
[1:31:00] of what
[1:31:02] happens in executive session. And I can
[1:31:04] just tell you from
[1:31:06] literally going to thousands of ex
[1:31:08] executive sessions, that's the last
[1:31:10] thing anybody wants to do is actually
[1:31:11] have an audio recording of what happens
[1:31:13] in an executive session. So 57,
[1:31:18] but it isn't either war.
[1:31:21] So, just so y'all are aware, it's not a
[1:31:24] huge thing, but that's what the
[1:31:27] certified agenda requires. And I have
[1:31:29] sent Angela a template. It's what we use
[1:31:31] every time. So, if y'all are ever
[1:31:32] interested in looking at it and seeing
[1:31:34] it, um, you can do that. It's just a
[1:31:37] list of who's there, who's present, and
[1:31:40] the item that was discussed. And that's
[1:31:43] that. Um,
[1:31:46] let's see. Uh, 58.
[1:31:51] So, may a member of the governmental
[1:31:52] body or staff release a copy of the
[1:31:54] certified agenda or recording of a
[1:31:56] closed meeting to the public? Remember
[1:31:58] our umbrella rule, everything's open to
[1:32:00] the public. So, the question is A, B, C,
[1:32:02] or D?
[1:32:17] Anybody
[1:32:26] want to go with B or C?
[1:32:30] So everybody is either A or D. Okay,
[1:32:34] Angela, reveal the answer, please.
[1:32:39] It is in fact, it is in fact a criminal
[1:32:42] offense, class B misdemeanor, to release
[1:32:46] a certified agenda without the order of
[1:32:48] a district court judge. Not a county
[1:32:50] court of law judge, not a federal judge,
[1:32:53] not a municipal court judge, not a JP,
[1:32:55] but a district court judge. That is
[1:32:57] actually in statute. So, it's good to
[1:33:00] see our former chief of police got us
[1:33:02] all thrown in jail. That is good. That's
[1:33:04] good. So that that is how sacroyn the
[1:33:08] certified agendas are. But again looking
[1:33:11] at it it's not really intimidating. So
[1:33:13] you might want to just see the form and
[1:33:14] how it is and you can even see the
[1:33:16] certified agenda if you go to a meeting
[1:33:18] any executive session. Hey Angela, can I
[1:33:20] see that before you seal it up? Because
[1:33:21] once it's sealed up, it's sealed up. Uh
[1:33:25] 60 please.
[1:33:30] Now, uh, and I love the fact, I can't
[1:33:33] help it because he did it to himself,
[1:33:35] but, uh, Mr. Bob Steinhagen when he
[1:33:38] disagreed with me, he actually cited the
[1:33:40] same cases I cited. So, really, he does
[1:33:42] agree with me. He just doesn't know how
[1:33:44] to apply what he reads. So, who can
[1:33:46] attend the executive session?
[1:33:54] anybody that you're the PNZ governing
[1:33:56] body or the council of the governing
[1:33:58] body deems to be necessary for the
[1:34:00] agenda item that you're going into
[1:34:02] executive session over that's now there
[1:34:05] are some specific exceptions crafted by
[1:34:08] case law not by statute give an example
[1:34:14] if you are in a real estate deal with
[1:34:15] someone you cannot take them into like
[1:34:18] they're in a contract to buy cannot take
[1:34:20] them into executive session. If you're
[1:34:22] in the midst of a lawsuit with another
[1:34:25] side, you can't go back into executive
[1:34:28] session. So, it's very very important
[1:34:31] that you note the last part is it may
[1:34:34] not admit a person and it it's not a
[1:34:37] period. It does not stop there. It said
[1:34:40] whose presence is against the interest
[1:34:43] of the governmental body.
[1:34:46] That's the key. Is the presence against
[1:34:49] the interest? If it is someone the
[1:34:51] governmental body says, I think their
[1:34:54] their presence is necessary to help me
[1:34:57] understand or make a decision out in
[1:35:00] public about an agenda item. That person
[1:35:04] is not their presence is not against the
[1:35:06] interest of the governmental body.
[1:35:07] That's the phrase right there. He also
[1:35:10] got a 1995 uh district of Texas case uh
[1:35:13] that also supports that. 61, please.
[1:35:18] I think y'all well y'all got I already
[1:35:20] mentioned 087 we mentioned 072 you know
[1:35:23] real property now don't be confused we
[1:35:26] can go back and talk about a real
[1:35:28] property deal that's fine you can go
[1:35:30] specifically on that and in fact you
[1:35:32] don't even need the attorney for 072
[1:35:34] y'all can go back and talk about that
[1:35:36] the the thing about that you can't do is
[1:35:38] the person that you're going to buy or
[1:35:40] sell the property to or from that person
[1:35:43] can't go back so just want to make sure
[1:35:45] that you personnel matters. That's what
[1:35:48] I quoted earlier, 074 A1. There's also
[1:35:50] A2. Um, y'all can go out executive
[1:35:53] session. You don't technically need uh a
[1:35:56] uh the city attorney for those types of
[1:35:59] things. Uh 62, please.
[1:36:04] Again, note what what is the on the
[1:36:06] third line? Common exceptions. The
[1:36:09] general rule is you can't go into
[1:36:11] executive session. Everything's got to
[1:36:13] be discussed out in public.
[1:36:16] Now, here's the thing, too, and I and I
[1:36:18] want to be fully and completely
[1:36:20] transparent. I will, if anything ever
[1:36:23] happens, I will take on the AG free of
[1:36:26] charge. I think they've got some very
[1:36:28] poor opinion writers. I think they're
[1:36:30] too in some of them are way too
[1:36:32] influenced by politics. Well, what do
[1:36:34] you mean? We have a catchall
[1:36:38] and we've used it for years at the
[1:36:40] bottom that says very clearly the city
[1:36:43] council may go into executive session on
[1:36:46] any agenda item pursuant to 5510712
[1:36:49] to consult with the city attorney about
[1:36:52] that particular item. For years, the AG
[1:36:54] had never addressed it. I think maybe
[1:36:58] year maybe two, there's an AG opinion
[1:37:00] out there that thinks that's not enough.
[1:37:03] I think that is
[1:37:05] one of the poorest legal reasoning and
[1:37:09] rationale I have ever encountered. And I
[1:37:11] and I will tell this to somebody. It's
[1:37:12] recorded. You can show it to the AG. I
[1:37:14] think they should be embarrassed for
[1:37:16] that decision because what you're
[1:37:17] telling me is in the middle of a
[1:37:19] meeting. You could have a very serious
[1:37:21] issue that's on the agenda properly
[1:37:23] posted and a council member goes, "Well,
[1:37:26] crap. What are the legal consequences
[1:37:27] for this?" Well, we didn't specifically
[1:37:29] put it on the agenda and the deadline to
[1:37:31] make a decision is tonight. So, you're
[1:37:33] kind of screwed according to the AG.
[1:37:34] That's crap. No. And I will fight the AG
[1:37:38] free of charge if we're ever challenged
[1:37:40] on that. The council should be
[1:37:43] encouraged encourage to go, "Wait a
[1:37:46] minute. I got legal questions about this
[1:37:49] particular agenda item. We didn't
[1:37:51] specifically say it was going to be for
[1:37:53] attorney, but I don't know how to make a
[1:37:54] decision without knowing the legal
[1:37:56] consequence, and I don't feel
[1:37:57] comfortable doing that in public because
[1:37:59] that's going to give away all my
[1:38:00] thinking, everything I may have on this
[1:38:02] decision.
[1:38:04] That seems to be the poorest public
[1:38:06] policy to say a council can't do that.
[1:38:09] Okay. So, but I want to make everybody
[1:38:11] aware there is a very recent AG opinion
[1:38:14] that says that. I wholeheartedly
[1:38:15] couldn't possibly disagree more uh with
[1:38:18] that. And I think the fact because it's
[1:38:20] it's noticed on the agenda. It says very
[1:38:22] clearly we could go. Now, you don't
[1:38:24] necessarily know, but a person can look
[1:38:26] at that agenda and go, "Oh, that thing
[1:38:28] about buying or selling the fire
[1:38:29] station, that's on the agenda." And then
[1:38:31] at the bottom, they could go get legal
[1:38:32] advice about that. They're aware of
[1:38:34] that. That fits what we talked about.
[1:38:37] People need to have a general idea of
[1:38:40] what's being discussed and what could
[1:38:42] happen. So, there you go. Uh, next one,
[1:38:44] please.
[1:38:50] This is what I wanted Mr. Good to be
[1:38:52] here for.
[1:38:59] Oh, wait. What are you doing, Angela?
[1:39:01] Hold on. Let me read that one. It's not
[1:39:03] as good as the one where the minutes
[1:39:05] where the guy says, you know, it should
[1:39:07] be noticed that every minute is like an
[1:39:08] hour, but this is still pretty good.
[1:39:12] And you notice everybody's winking at
[1:39:13] each other. Okay. So, this is gonna get
[1:39:16] into
[1:39:17] now you may proceed. Angela, thank you
[1:39:19] so much.
[1:39:21] Angela's always having to slow down for
[1:39:23] me. I really appreciate it. So, uh a
[1:39:26] little bit again only those three uh
[1:39:30] provisions can be enforced by the DA,
[1:39:32] the county, or the criminal district
[1:39:33] attorney. That's because there's a most
[1:39:35] DAS have a civil side and a criminal
[1:39:38] side. And so there are potential civil
[1:39:40] penalties and or criminal penalties for
[1:39:43] for uh TOMA. Uh next one please.
[1:39:48] That's what they are. Um
[1:39:51] it's important to understand
[1:39:55] some actions are and it makes a
[1:39:58] difference on how you can enforce
[1:40:00] certain things to know whether an action
[1:40:02] is void or voidable.
[1:40:06] Let me let me try to give an idea. So
[1:40:10] the let's say you got a zoning case and
[1:40:14] that comes up. Let's say that we have
[1:40:19] proper notice 10 days to the PNZ. They
[1:40:21] meet. They got a recommendation. We have
[1:40:23] the council meeting. There's a public
[1:40:25] hearing on the council meeting and uh
[1:40:28] the uh PNZ makes a recommendation and
[1:40:30] the council votes. Then we find out that
[1:40:33] we had a mistake. Not Angela, but we had
[1:40:36] a mistake. There was only 10 days notice
[1:40:39] to the council, not 15 that was
[1:40:41] required. Does that mean that zoning
[1:40:43] ordinance is is void flat on its face?
[1:40:47] Exact. No more. This is no more for you.
[1:40:50] No more for you. Uh but that's exactly
[1:40:52] right. And the reason why is because
[1:40:55] it's passed. What council can then do
[1:40:58] and go, okay, we got a nose 15 days.
[1:41:00] They go back 15 days, they post it, they
[1:41:03] have the the the meeting, they vote on
[1:41:05] it again and passed it. You're fine. You
[1:41:08] don't have to go back and redo the whole
[1:41:10] thing. Now, give an example where it's
[1:41:12] void. Let's say the easiest one is
[1:41:15] annexation. We can't really do it
[1:41:16] anymore, but think back in the days when
[1:41:19] we could annex. One thing is y'all
[1:41:22] understand with annexations it's a
[1:41:24] specific detailed meets and bounds of
[1:41:26] property going and a surveyor can go out
[1:41:29] and go it starts here and the property
[1:41:31] goes around and ends like that. Okay.
[1:41:33] Well, if there's a problem with the
[1:41:35] meets and bounds the detailed this being
[1:41:37] dairy certain track to land out of this
[1:41:39] thing going down to the iron rod at a
[1:41:41] 20° angle northwest from this road blah
[1:41:44] blah blah. That's the meets and bounds.
[1:41:46] If that goes like this but stops here,
[1:41:49] we say that doesn't close and the city
[1:41:52] council passes the ordinance and three
[1:41:54] years later it's determined that it
[1:41:57] didn't close. That action is void. You
[1:42:01] cannot go back and fix it without
[1:42:03] redoing everything. It is void from its
[1:42:07] it's called void avenue initial void
[1:42:09] from the beginning because the council
[1:42:11] didn't have authority
[1:42:13] to annex property without a closing that
[1:42:17] is a void action again the voidable one
[1:42:20] is the procedure was followed but it
[1:42:23] wasn't followed I'm going to say
[1:42:25] accurately or all correctly so you can
[1:42:29] go back and fix that that's an that's an
[1:42:31] example of avoid
[1:42:33] versus avoidable action And those can
[1:42:36] have very very serious
[1:42:39] consequences and differences. Um,
[1:42:43] next please.
[1:42:45] Oh. Oh, go back one. I'm sorry, Angela.
[1:42:47] Go back one more. So, mandamus for
[1:42:51] example, you can go back. Mandamis the
[1:42:54] the ask the court to Mandamis is a is a
[1:42:58] request for a judge to order a
[1:43:01] government official to do or not do
[1:43:03] something. And you can only do it when
[1:43:06] the rules are completely laid out. This
[1:43:10] is why board voidable is important. If,
[1:43:13] for example, you're going to go forward,
[1:43:15] you could probably get a court, I would
[1:43:17] think, at least an injunction against
[1:43:19] the city from enacting and going forward
[1:43:21] on the zoning ordinance because you only
[1:43:23] had 10day notice for council 15. Okay.
[1:43:26] So, they could mandamish you. That's
[1:43:29] arguable, but for sure they can enjoin
[1:43:31] you from effectively carrying out the
[1:43:34] ordinance because you got to go back and
[1:43:36] fix it. The court can't mandamus or
[1:43:39] can't enjoin you from acting out the uh
[1:43:43] annexation ordinance because it was void
[1:43:45] from the beginning. So that is an
[1:43:48] example of why void and voidable and how
[1:43:50] they could play out in our world. Thank
[1:43:52] you, Angela. Next one. Sorry about that.
[1:43:56] Okay. unauthorized again. Um, oh, I took
[1:44:00] it out. I apologize. I took it out in
[1:44:01] another part, but not this one. Now, um,
[1:44:05] the knowing part is now kind of removed.
[1:44:08] If you do this, now we're getting into,
[1:44:11] um,
[1:44:13] I don't know where we are now. Angela's
[1:44:16] got us at like 64 and a half.
[1:44:21] » Uh, yeah, go down.
[1:44:24] Yeah, go down one more actually. See if
[1:44:26] it's what I'm thinking.
[1:44:30] No, we already talked about that one. Go
[1:44:31] down 68. That's about the certified
[1:44:33] agenda and a class B misdemeanor. Ya.
[1:44:35] Go. Will you go down 68, please?
[1:44:42] Okay, here we go. Here we go. This is
[1:44:44] what I want to get into and what Mr.
[1:44:45] Good was talking about. Now,
[1:44:49] now we're getting into and and everybody
[1:44:52] read these because now it really gets a
[1:44:55] bit dicey. It gets a bit it gets a bit
[1:44:57] difficult.
[1:44:59] Is there a violation? And I don't think
[1:45:01] I had this this question. Oh, well, I'm
[1:45:03] wait till everybody reads it real fast.
[1:45:20] Okay, we go at 69. I can't remember if I
[1:45:22] put the question on here or not.
[1:45:29] No, go down one more. I mean, put it on
[1:45:31] here. That's okay.
[1:45:39] Look at that. We're getting close to the
[1:45:41] end, people.
[1:45:45] Okay, this is this is good enough. I
[1:45:46] didn't think I put it on there, but
[1:45:47] okay. So, let me ask you this.
[1:45:50] If Mayor Pro Tim went to the mayor,
[1:45:54] talked to him about, let's use the
[1:45:56] controversial 8.2 last night, say he
[1:45:59] went to the mayor and talked about 8.2.
[1:46:01] Okay. Then he went to council member
[1:46:03] London and he talked about 8.2. And then
[1:46:06] he went to council member Cowry and
[1:46:08] talked about 8.2 from last night. So,
[1:46:11] there was deliberation for for sure.
[1:46:12] They talked about public
[1:46:15] They had a long detailed conversation
[1:46:16] about an item under which they have
[1:46:18] control. Okay. Well, I guess we learned
[1:46:20] from last night they have control over.
[1:46:22] That's story. Did any of those four
[1:46:25] people violate the Open Means Act in the
[1:46:28] scenario I just gave?
[1:46:33] » Who? Okay.
[1:46:36] >> He didn't even say his name. He's like
[1:46:40] » He didn't even say his name. He's like
[1:46:40] >> that dude right there in red.
[1:46:41] » that dude right there in red.
[1:46:41] >> Why are you scooting over?
[1:46:43] » Why are you scooting over?
[1:46:43] Well, this guy already put us in jail
[1:46:45] once.
[1:46:50] » Okay, now careful. In the scenario I
[1:46:53] gave,
[1:46:55] >> did anybody violate the Open Meetings
[1:46:57] » did anybody violate the Open Meetings
[1:46:57] Act? And if so, who?
[1:47:01] Okay.
[1:47:04] » Okay. So, you say nobody.
[1:47:06] >> Okay.
[1:47:08] » Okay.
[1:47:08] >> I'm gonna say
[1:47:10] » I'm gonna say
[1:47:10] >> Okay. Everybody wants to blame you.
[1:47:14] » Okay. Everybody wants to blame you.
[1:47:14] Okay. Really? Why is that?
[1:47:18] >> I wasn't I didn't go I went to one
[1:47:22] » I wasn't I didn't go I went to one
[1:47:22] particular person
[1:47:24] the other person said and so this I'm
[1:47:27] just giving you
[1:47:28] >> the man's got it waking everybody up.
[1:47:33] » the man's got it waking everybody up.
[1:47:33] >> You are the man. That is exactly right.
[1:47:36] » You are the man. That is exactly right.
[1:47:36] But you see how this gets complicated.
[1:47:39] This gets and I'm not kidding about it.
[1:47:41] It gets very complicated. It's very
[1:47:43] detailed. I mean, it it is not easy. So,
[1:47:45] I want y'all to call me at any time. He
[1:47:47] mayor Tim nailed it. If he and that was
[1:47:50] my scenario, he's right. If he had gone
[1:47:52] to the mayor, talked about 8.2,
[1:47:55] then gone to council member Towry and
[1:47:57] said, "Yeah, I was talking to the mayor
[1:47:58] about, you know, 8.2 and council member
[1:48:00] Cowry blah blah blah, and then he had
[1:48:02] gone to council member London and said,
[1:48:03] "Yeah, you know what? I talked to
[1:48:04] council member Towry and the mayor and
[1:48:05] this is what we concluded." And Mr.
[1:48:07] London uh said, "Yeah, you know, okay, I
[1:48:09] kind of agree with you." Then who's
[1:48:10] committed uh a uh a violation of the
[1:48:14] meanings act?
[1:48:16] >> Close. No,
[1:48:17] » Close. No,
[1:48:17] >> not me.
[1:48:18] » not me.
[1:48:18] >> Not him and not him. That's not a
[1:48:20] » Not him and not him. That's not a
[1:48:20] quorum.
[1:48:22] >> But you're on the right track.
[1:48:31] » You got it. It's exactly that simple.
[1:48:34] Just like Mayor Proin said, he can talk
[1:48:36] to every single member of council.
[1:48:39] every single one. As long as he's not
[1:48:42] pulling it and pulling it all together,
[1:48:45] there's not a violation. Now, I will
[1:48:47] tell you, a lot of city attorneys won't
[1:48:50] tell you those types of details because
[1:48:51] they're like, "No, y'all can't talk."
[1:48:53] Again, I don't I don't do it that way. I
[1:48:56] treat y'all like grown-ups. Um I my my
[1:48:59] phone is always available. You can call
[1:49:00] me anytime, midnight, whatever. It
[1:49:02] doesn't matter. Uh and I and I have
[1:49:04] answered that for a lot of people and I
[1:49:05] will because this is a very touchy, you
[1:49:08] know, type subject and so I want
[1:49:10] everybody to feel comfortable in what
[1:49:11] they're doing. Hey, you know what? This
[1:49:12] is what I did. Is it okay? But again,
[1:49:15] that's why we started with what we
[1:49:16] started
[1:49:18] forum.
[1:49:20] Is it something that you uh we have
[1:49:22] control over? Uh yada yada yada. We went
[1:49:24] right down the list. So that's what you
[1:49:26] start thinking. Oh yes.
[1:49:38] mayor.
[1:49:49] » We're actually gonna get into this. He's
[1:49:50] not even here. He's ahead of me.
[1:50:07] I mean, what is your opinion on that?
[1:50:15] » He's pretty well trained. Well, here's
[1:50:17] the thing. It depend. Like most good
[1:50:20] attorneys, I'm going to say it depends.
[1:50:22] If Mr. Mr. Goodwin is posting on great
[1:50:25] meeting last night. Okay. Mr. Goodwin's
[1:50:28] like, "My daughter's the greatest."
[1:50:29] Maybe I had son. My my kid is the
[1:50:32] greatest kid in the world. Okay. You
[1:50:33] don't like that? No. That's I don't care
[1:50:35] if every single council member does
[1:50:36] that.
[1:50:37] >> If Mr. Goodwin said, "Man, I am excited
[1:50:39] » If Mr. Goodwin said, "Man, I am excited
[1:50:39] about voting at the next meeting on item
[1:50:42] 8.4 and saying blah blah blah." And you
[1:50:46] like it. Yeah, I think you violate the
[1:50:48] open meetings act.
[1:50:49] >> So that's again quorum. Is it under your
[1:50:53] » So that's again quorum. Is it under your
[1:50:53] control? But step by step by step going
[1:50:56] down going down the list. And again,
[1:50:59] it's not wrong for you to talk to
[1:51:02] everybody else and get their feeling
[1:51:04] on things. So yeah. Now, what was the
[1:51:07] first did I answer the first part of the
[1:51:08] question? First,
[1:51:25] » okay, now based on
[1:51:26] >> the ones I see a lot is when people say
[1:51:28] » the ones I see a lot is when people say
[1:51:28] what's coming at 5 and 20 or I heard
[1:51:31] this is coming. Does anybody know
[1:51:33] anything? And then all of a sudden
[1:51:35] people start chiming in.
[1:51:36] >> It happens a lot.
[1:51:38] » It happens a lot.
[1:51:38] you see and I see on the HOA page,
[1:51:42] they'll they'll type, hey, I saw this is
[1:51:45] coming up. What does anybody know about
[1:51:47] it? And then and typically you'll see
[1:51:51] at Brian, do you know anything? And I
[1:51:53] don't ever comment. I I don't even I
[1:51:55] don't even I just stay away from those
[1:51:57] conversations.
[1:51:58] >> But now now that we've you go through do
[1:52:01] » But now now that we've you go through do
[1:52:01] can you do you think, hey, you know
[1:52:02] what? I can apply that to the different
[1:52:04] >> Yeah.
[1:52:08] Because in in all serious, look, I know
[1:52:09] a lot of this is dry and boring, so I do
[1:52:11] try to keep y'all entertained, you know,
[1:52:13] as well as teach y'all stuff, but in all
[1:52:15] seriousness, I want to Thank you, Mr.
[1:52:17] Powers. In all seriousness, one thing I
[1:52:20] want to be able to do is if I'm not
[1:52:21] around, you know, I who knows what
[1:52:24] what's going to happen in the future. if
[1:52:25] I'm not around. I want y'all to have the
[1:52:28] tools and the knowledge that you need to
[1:52:31] keep yourself out of trouble and and
[1:52:34] more importantly be able to serve the
[1:52:36] people that elect y'all to be here.
[1:52:39] That's what I want to be able to do is
[1:52:40] give y'all the tools that you need and
[1:52:42] say, "Hey, look, you know what? I can I
[1:52:44] can figure this out. I don't want y'all
[1:52:46] to be on a life rapper on your own. So,
[1:52:47] seriously, call me anytime, okay? But I
[1:52:51] want y'all to also feel comfortable uh
[1:52:53] knowing that, okay, look, I need to be
[1:52:55] careful with what I say or, you know,
[1:52:56] I'm not going to worry about if I I love
[1:52:58] the picnic, I love the barbecue, you
[1:52:59] know, it was great, and I want to tell
[1:53:01] Council Member Goodwin, thanks for
[1:53:02] letting me use your you know, your
[1:53:04] grill, whatever. You know, I'm not going
[1:53:05] to worry about it then because like,
[1:53:06] hey, I got quorum. Is it under control?
[1:53:09] yada yada yada. I got all that stuff in
[1:53:10] place. Um, next one, please. I think
[1:53:14] we're pretty close to being done now.
[1:53:16] Oh, y'all know about that. I do 90day
[1:53:18] 72, please.
[1:53:21] Yeah, if y'all ever want uh the the
[1:53:24] that's just in case y'all want to talk
[1:53:25] to the OG and stuff like that and that's
[1:53:28] for new recordions. Uh and and and I
[1:53:31] always encourage cities are always
[1:53:33] asking me um the reason I have this on
[1:53:35] there, cities are always asking how long
[1:53:37] should we keep records. said, "Look,
[1:53:39] what I think everybody should do, you
[1:53:41] pass an ordinance and you adopt the
[1:53:42] Texas State Library Archives, their
[1:53:45] record retention policy. It's just it's
[1:53:48] easy to follow. You can look at it. You
[1:53:50] know what you can get rid of, when you
[1:53:51] can get rid of, how you get rid of it,
[1:53:52] stuff like that." So, that that pretty
[1:53:54] much wraps it up unless you have
[1:53:57] questions.
[1:54:12] Oh yeah, I probably I didn't cover that.
[1:54:14] So I I should I guess I was
[1:54:20] » So here's the thing. Much like the
[1:54:22] attorney client privilege is held not by
[1:54:26] the attorney. It is not the attorney's
[1:54:28] privilege. It is the client's privilege.
[1:54:31] and only the client can wave it. So the
[1:54:35] point of going back in executive
[1:54:36] session, it is the council's or the PNG,
[1:54:39] whoever does it. It is the council's
[1:54:43] uh privilege. It's not mine. It's not
[1:54:46] for brie's. We can't say anything
[1:54:48] without y'all's permission about what
[1:54:50] happened executive session. Y'all are
[1:54:53] free. Yes. The one guiding rule that
[1:54:57] that I give council when they're asking
[1:54:59] about what you know, talk about
[1:55:01] is my question I always ask is hey if
[1:55:04] you're asking me about whether or not
[1:55:06] you should talk to so and so about
[1:55:09] whatever is my thing is what was your
[1:55:11] point of going into executive session?
[1:55:13] If you're going to go into executive
[1:55:15] session and then just tell the whole
[1:55:17] world then why didn't you why did you
[1:55:19] waste our time going back in there and
[1:55:20] doing that? Why don't we just have it
[1:55:22] out here in the front? That's that's
[1:55:24] where I'm coming from.
[1:55:27] >> But
[1:55:27] » But
[1:55:27] >> is that is that is that answer the
[1:55:29] » is that is that is that answer the
[1:55:30] practice? you don't you don't want to
[1:55:32] but if you did you're not in trouble
[1:55:34] right a lot of people will try to say oh
[1:55:37] you're in trouble for talking about
[1:55:38] executive session
[1:55:41] >> I would be Angela would be you know
[1:55:43] » I would be Angela would be you know
[1:55:43] somebody for reason
[1:55:46] >> y'all it is y'all's privilege so y'all
[1:55:48] » y'all it is y'all's privilege so y'all
[1:55:48] would not be Somebody's attend
[1:56:19] hour.
[1:56:37] I know I've tried to since I've come on
[1:56:41] like
[1:56:42] >> I try to and anyone in here will tell
[1:56:45] » I try to and anyone in here will tell
[1:56:45] you I'm usually like hey
[1:56:47] back
[1:56:49] I'll tell you where it's
[1:56:57] session number.
[1:57:12] » Yeah.
[1:57:19] Let me ask you, let me ask you a
[1:57:21] question, Mark. Remember when I first
[1:57:22] came on as mayor and I held executive
[1:57:25] session from 5:45 to 6:15
[1:57:30] and I had that council at the time did
[1:57:32] not like that and that's why we have to
[1:57:35] stop that. I actually like rock wall
[1:57:37] does it. I can't remember what the other
[1:57:39] city does. We do it we have executive
[1:57:41] session before 6:30. So that way when we
[1:57:44] hit 6:30, we're in front of people and
[1:57:47] and I I have zero issue going back to
[1:57:51] that whole council. I mean, I can't we
[1:57:53] can't do that decision tonight, but I
[1:57:55] can put it on the agenda to ask the
[1:57:57] council if they want to do it. I'll be
[1:57:58] happy to go back to the 5:45 to 6:15
[1:58:01] executive session. And the reason I like
[1:58:03] it is because it was a time. Hey, at
[1:58:05] 6:15 we're going back out there because
[1:58:07] you want to be saying hi to people,
[1:58:09] talking to the people, greeting the
[1:58:10] people that are coming to this meeting
[1:58:12] so they know they're important. At 6:30
[1:58:14] starts,
[1:58:23] » it's supposed to be. That's why I call
[1:58:25] them exceptions. And I got to give the
[1:58:27] mayor props. In 26 years of doing this,
[1:58:30] he's probably one of the top mayors I've
[1:58:32] seen about getting in their executive
[1:58:34] session, getting the business done, and
[1:58:36] getting out. I mean, he really he really
[1:58:38] he really does a very good job of doing
[1:58:40] that.
[1:58:49] Right.
[1:58:59] That's called a certified agenda.
[1:59:02] >> A certified agenda. And we do that after
[1:59:04] » A certified agenda. And we do that after
[1:59:04] every executive session. Angela can give
[1:59:07] you and P&Z would use the same one. And
[1:59:10] it's just and I created it and I use it
[1:59:12] for any city I represent. They change if
[1:59:14] they want to, but I think Angela likes
[1:59:16] it. And it's just the the template of
[1:59:18] what we would use for a certified agenda
[1:59:21] for our executive sessions. If you
[1:59:22] you're welcome to look at it. Yeah.
[1:59:32] » I think he's saying when we come back
[1:59:33] outside, should we be saying what we
[1:59:38] >> Oh,
[1:59:38] » Oh,
[1:59:38] >> give like a little brief. Give a little
[1:59:40] » give like a little brief. Give a little
[1:59:40] brief.
[1:59:43] >> You're not required to. You don't have
[1:59:45] » You're not required to. You don't have
[1:59:45] to take any action after executive
[1:59:47] session. The governing body doesn't.
[1:59:48] They don't have to take any action. In
[1:59:50] fact, what I always recommend that the
[1:59:53] mayor do is when we come out of
[1:59:54] executive session, go, "Hey, is there
[1:59:56] any action as a result of executive
[1:59:58] session?" If somebody says, "Yeah, I
[2:00:00] want to make a motion to approve the
[2:00:01] contract between, you know, city and
[2:00:03] whatever or if there's nothing and
[2:00:05] everybody is quiet, the mayor just moves
[2:00:07] on."
[2:00:07] >> Well, usually
[2:00:10] » Well, usually
[2:00:10] no.
[2:00:11] >> I'll say no action was taken. I know
[2:00:13] » I'll say no action was taken. I know
[2:00:13] what it because I might say, you know,
[2:00:15] we talked a little bit about this, no
[2:00:17] actions taken
[2:00:18] >> without
[2:00:19] » without
[2:00:19] >> without specifics. I'm I'm pretty
[2:00:21] » without specifics. I'm I'm pretty
[2:00:21] general, which is
[2:00:24] >> which is why I like to to Mark's point,
[2:00:27] » which is why I like to to Mark's point,
[2:00:27] there's only certain reasons to go into
[2:00:29] executive session and I I really try to
[2:00:31] adhere to that because I I I am not a
[2:00:34] fan of executive session, but I
[2:00:35] understand a need for it, which I guess
[2:00:38] now I will ask for reason to make sure
[2:00:40] it's on the next council meeting that we
[2:00:42] discuss. Do we want to go back to
[2:00:44] pre meeting from 5:45 to 6:15 and then
[2:00:48] we can have that opportunity for
[2:00:50] executive session and then we are
[2:00:52] because my whole thing is in front of
[2:00:54] the people that's they that's what they
[2:00:55] want us to be we're not the government
[2:00:57] they are we just be out here talking to
[2:00:58] them so
[2:01:06] you know we'll put it on the next one
[2:01:08] and we can discuss
[2:01:32] Maybe we maybe we have to be better as
[2:01:35] far as
[2:01:36] you know our new city manager So when we
[2:01:40] have the agendas that we looking at that
[2:01:42] and making sure you know if there's a
[2:01:45] reason or something to go on executive
[2:01:47] session we're going into it and we we
[2:01:49] have that laid out
[2:01:51] >> and then that way it's just it's not
[2:01:52] » and then that way it's just it's not
[2:01:52] abuse because I mean you know I will I
[2:01:57] will say there's not one executive
[2:01:58] session that I've called so far that
[2:02:00] I've regretted the only ones I have been
[2:02:03] in somewhere this long and I'm just like
[2:02:04] why we're talking in circles and you
[2:02:07] know I am
[2:02:08] Once we say it twice that we're going
[2:02:10] back out, we done disgusting. Let's go.
[2:02:13] And I'll try to tighten that up. I don't
[2:02:16] like it back there.
[2:02:30] We have pretty robust policy
[2:02:32] discussions.
[2:02:46] approaches.
[2:02:49] But then come to