>> we all right.
>> we are in the city chambers
and I call the city commission
workshop meeting to order.
Commissioners present are
commissioner mcdowell. Myself
mayor white vice mayor
commissioner average. I
acknowledge that. Vice and
vice mayor. But langdon is
commissioner hear that there's
present for this meeting also
the PRESIDENT Our city manager
fletcher city attorney slayton
city clerk though. There, I'm
sorry michael.
>> I had to take I didn't take
my notes really sorry.
>> I do say place to for
garrison back there and is
that chief titus back there
thank you for waving your
hand.
>> that's always is a little
do the pledge and could I
have. Carol what would you
previous in in the
>> I pledge allegiance to flag
of united states of america
for which it stands one nation
under GOD indivisible with
liberty and justice for all.
>> alright
>> city clerk do we have any
public comment. All right.
Good
>> my name is racing on north
course see all the black spots
on this map. These are
single-family homes that
already exist and are little
areas so this is about zoning
in the shire and activity
center number 6. South
barcelona drought. Has already
recently been reconsidered to
remain a pocket that is rsf 2.
North of barcelona should
remain the same also. And
alternative could be in the
architectural style. Script
chan, it could read single
family as well as what else is
there. Another the is bordered
between cocoa kloman
bethelehem waterways and north
barcelona 30 single family
homes. Outside of that
boundary. Also there's a large
completely occupied section
west of christ from yorkshire
they can accommodate
commercial activity center and
the prizes as well as river
road as well as further up and
the c a so those are the
alternatives. Thank you for
your time and attention this
morning. Okay.
>> is so we have no online
public comment think okay,
thank you. All right, I guess
without further ado we'll move
on general business. City
manager. This is your item.
>> thank you MADAM Mayor, the
side of the discussion
possible you of the guard and
real question to sex the real
to be in the charter of the
cold the city of to the city's
authority to issue obligation
of bombs as I was coming for
for discussion as a
conversation occurred after we
had hurricane ian all last
year. It is no secret that was
a good move one of very few if
any municipalities in the
state that do not have so or
enter into without going to
put your vehicle to that
referendum. And it could
impact the city's ability in
the future. If we were to come
critical situation. Therefore
we would back and we explored
several options based on what
do. 2 out state route are
surrounding municipalities of
it you're stuck in similar in
size. Focus the city of port.
Today we have dozen taken by
the attorney's office finance
department to do information
in office to consider court
order for people discussion
that we come back to you
voting item on baker
commission now MISTER Michael
going to it's vision we have a
lot of people the question
that MAY go through your
process but the fbi for thank
thank you.
>> good morning commissioner,
thank city as city manager.
Just said you know we are here
to present this presentation
as directed on the for
potential bond referendum. My
of so. On NOVEMBER 8th
twenty-twenty to the
commission unanimously voted
to direct staff to start the
process of ordering the
referendum. For the general
election in 2024 2 men
section, one to be see chart a
lot of 2 issue general
obligation or revenue bonds.
The future MS. Presentation
we're going to talk about is
the city's legal authority
issue general obligation new
bonds under florida law and it
highlights some compared to
jurisdictions and how their
charters do with bombs. Higher
supreme will then provide its
recommendations for commission
consideration for many of the
charter and also city's bond
council MISTER Steve miller is
here answer specific a
specific bond questions.
Commission MAY have I relate
with the city is doing or.
Conditions might have so with
that. He will move on to
section one to get each other
in summary. Effectively
restricts the city from
incurring debt. Any type. Any
amount unless approved by a
majority of voters at a
referendum. This restriction
is uncommon and could impact
the city's ability to respond
to an emergency situation.
Critical infrastructure
scenario, we'll talk a little
bit more about that later.
Officers found no other
jurisdiction in the state.
It's a strict language its
charter litsa bonds, however,
because the way the city's
charter is written. It's
arguable that referendum
firemen our charter applies to
all types of debt and not just
bought. But focusing on bonds
for now. Our charter
specifically identifies both
general obligation and revenue
bonds and florida law treats
general obligation bonds
little bit differently. So
we're going to get into the
difference there. And what
these types of bonds are and
the difference is are
required. Legal authority
regarding general obligation
bonds fan of the florida
constitution. It provides the
general obligation bonds
secured traveler. I want
station as property taxes
based on property values and
it must be approved by
referendum vote. When the bond
matures more and 12 months
missions. So there are those
parameters there general
obligation within 12 months
referendums required. They all
ask yourself what 12 months.
That is the next question for
them. MISTER Let colleagues
have the authority issue
general obligation bonds less
than a year. Out a referendum.
So short term financing that
would be an example commercial
bank loans that sort of thing
lines of credit, something
that the city could do. But is
prohibited from doing. Legal
authority regarding revenue
bonds is found in florida
statute. Statute provides as
long as the bonds payable from
the source. It is not ad
valorem taxes. No referendums
acquired. So there are on
table from reading this as I
just said these can be
anything from. Utilities
excise taxes, gas taxes
general revenues. Operation of
the pregnancy project, france
fees, those sort of things can
be used to pay that's major
difference is. In those 2 bond
times. As we're going to take
a look at what other
comparable jurisdictions are
doing and how they're charged
with ons. These are comparable
duty to the size of the
jurisdiction. Proximity to
port. And as you see some
charters. I mentioned on
sunday on some do it all.
Jurisdiction on this slide.
They have no bomb in the
teeming which in their
charters you know they don't
mention anything about bonds
but it simply provide follow
the process as provided by
florida law. Works others.
Don't have anything within the
tournament might their code my
deal guns and how to do so
some of comparable
jurisdictions I do a bombing
which now talk about for
example sarasota county.
Referenced require mundt.
Respect to bonds payable from
taxes. There they say when
county tax revenues are used
to pay indebtedness the
referendum is required unless
the amounts less then
17 million dollars and
70 million dollar amount was
in 2003. So there's are solely
table so if people from other
types of revenue enterprise
fund impact assessment. Those
are not subject to this
referendum requirement.
Monitor limitation. The county
will issue can issue any bond
that's below its monetary
level. And then they have
built an escalator you'll see
that every year on OCTOBER
one. A builder escalator in my
cpi. Consumer price index that
12 month period. A limitation
from 2003 has been a slate
every year there are now about
28 million. Plus dollars.
Currently. Referendum is
required any bond that exceed
that fiscal amount per project
per year. And then they have
additional for requirements.
There are additional
limitations they out on a limb
per project. So you MAY have
multiple projects that are
under 28 million dollars they
can do bond each project. But
they could not break up the
project in separate parts
separate box for each part of
one project one project, their
limits that bond to that
project. Some make sense that
you can break it up get around
that a limitation. Venice,
this a little bit differently
they had their general
obligation bonds follow
florida law. And they require
a referendum, more than one
year. Revenue on simply
require 50% plus majority the
commission to say. We're going
to city of sarasota. Like for
dinner general obligations,
bonds follow florida law but
they set a limit on the
maximum amount of that van and
the way that their math works
is 10% of the emphasis valiant
city real product. I don't
know what that number is
currently for they do when
they got to do have the
maximum out can't go past that
limit for revenue bonds is
simply approved by city
commission. No additional
limitations on hoping to
creek. So they said a florida
law. Another limitation
regarding of our county. For
the general obligation bonds
they follow florida law. And
then they have revenue a
patient's to limit my limits,
15 million dollars per project
that limit expires every 2
years. So if they wanted to do
the same project again after 2
years they could that and it
specifically excludes certain
projects from this limitation
the 15 million dollars. Those
projects are. Not related to.
Those mandated by court order.
Liquidity project utility or
enterprise fund were road
projects vitesse taxes. So
those would not fall under
that cap additionally
commission grants themselves
the authority. Case of an
emergency. But it declared by
the governor the PRESIDENT
States related to hair every
truck shun of certain
infrastructure. So they if the
commission determines there's
an emergency it's related to
these things they can direct
deposit. A specific carpet for
that. So some possible
amendments to north port char
so as you've heard for the law
provides the general framework
for how local governments can
issue these general
obligations of revenue bonds
as long as that framework is
follow it jurisdiction can.
Facing a guide rails that want
on self without a charter will
allow. If commission
determines that it wants to
move forward propose an
amendment to chart following
most common limitations that
we've seen out there. Kind of
like al a carte menu though
you can go with none of these
options all that option. Some
of options that's going to
recommend. To you, but we'll
go over. With the possible
amendments could be so. He
wants you to simply rely on a
constitutional limits within
obligation bonds. You can do
that. By repealing any
reference and wanted to to
revenue that haitians you can
simply clarify that this is
going to follow all along. And
the referendums only required
for general obligation bonds
choose you could clarify that
the referendum is not required
for bank loans and other
private places like we
discussed our charter language
interpreted as any kind of.
Loan taken out authorized
revenue bonds completely or
within limitations. You could
set a maximum authorized them
out. You can increase it by
cpi. You can set when that
period increases annual like
we've seen in other places.
You can require commission
vote. 100% to 2%. In the
middle. Respondent you could
have a referendum only for if
debt matures at a certain
period more less than 1020 30
years for example. You could
authorize them for certain
categories for example during
a declared emergency is
determined by. Governor the
PRESIDENT This board. Said the
mercy of turnpike commission
you can increase it you can
set it to simply public safety
reasons emergency recovery
response to regulators. We're
that sort of thing. What we've
seen out there with other
jurisdictions are doing with
our limitations are. This pass
it over to staff must have any
questions legal but they're
recommending.
>> good morning. My name is
irene and go and then my
>> and I'm going to talk about
some of options that we are
recommending.
>> option won this is our
recommended option. And this
where commission would be
awesome I seem to issue in an
emergency situation and in
this we would define emergency
declared a local state or
federal emergency.
>> as well as public health
and safety and public safety
health and would be defined as
response to regulatory.
Agencies such for example
department health would come.
Which required to do some kind
of major infrastructure
upgrade. Other wednesday,
which down are holding
>> with the.
>> get to safety
infrastructure. Such as roads
bridges.
>> what a control structure to
work. In the water and then
also in response to police
fire. Disaster. So this is our
recommended option also wanted
to provide more than just one.
So here we have too. With this
we would just follow. Florida
law. This is similar to how a
nurse brevard county as well
as other jurisdictions are
doing just like michael
mention.
>> we would still need to
establish acceptable that
limit policies.
>> in order to maintain credit
rating.
>> and our 3rd where we
structure with some set new
members bonding limitations.
With this commission would be
awesome raising that payable
from taxes for one time within
a set structured. Sections
once every 90 days up to set
him project like 15 up to
15 million. And with annual
cpi adjustment they have to
first. With this option we
would recommends the
commission I would wave to
monitor limit if there is an
emergency. As we define I
defined in option, one. And
with this option that that
would be so we pay bills from
enterprise fund impact fees or
months would not be subject
limitations. And as some other
jurisdictions I do projects
would not allowed to be broken
into separate parts wanted to
the mitigation. Here I wanted
to apologize. I the way and
the it was scrivener's error
on weight since option, one on
both of those projects that
should be option option 2 is
offering to follow florida
law. I'm sure wanted to
provide some hypothetical
projects these are not actual
projects we have they're just
one hypothetical just for
example.
>> wanted to present what
would be our which options
would be able if we had these
type of projects out there
that we wanted to bonds.
>> so the project we have
police station for 50 million
revenue on that would be
secured by certain taxes.
Option 2 would be the only
option that the commission
would be able to operate.
Other with options you have to
go to a referendum. Our unless
the first project it would
qualify as an emergency. But
in this case we are saying
that that's not an emergency
just the station that you get
to regular replacement. Our
second project here is a road
improvements and it's at
15 million revenue
because it's up to 15 million
for option I would
option.
>> 2 would be following
florida law.
>> on 3rd a project we to
control its for structure
where it is an emergency and
the public health and safety.
We wanted to issue 20 million
revenue bond, all 3 options
would be able this case
commission would be able to
right for that project. And
then the 4th project, its
parks improvement general
obligation bond.
Regardless of the florida law
we
have do a referendum.
>> here wanted to show some
list port possible projects.
>> that MAY. The future of
finance with that. Not
necessarily that we're going
go and get projects just
wanted to put in some
perspective.
>> and what are some possible
projects. This is not a
comprehensive much something
to think about in the future.
Some of these projects will to
do.
>> wanted to recap.
>> recommended options option.
One is the one that
recommending.
>> commission would be
raising, we'd be able to
authorized to issue debt for
emergency. As as I mentioned
declared a local state and
federal emergency in public
health and safety. With option
we with the city follow state
long. And then option is where
we would parameters and
bonding with medication.
>> with exceptions bill you'll
be able to.
Also raise our current just
wanted to.
Talk as you all know the city
is still recovering. Through
hurricane here we have
activity from ian. And some
project costs. This is not a
comprehensive list of all of
costs this is cost as
>> time we pulled.
>> but due to a financial
policies that the city had we
able to cover all activities
while we wait for fema and
insurance reimbursement.
Wanted to point out what if it
was in that day and that
happened within just a short
period time.
>> I don't know if we put able
to finance with our current.
>> cash on hand to do it not
that would strain city's
finances and eventually a
brisk on the credit. Wanted to
show 70 and was example.
Damage from to water control
structure within you know we
have price roads peeler we
have chancellor there. Stated
earlier. If we need to borrow.
>> and they have an emergency
our current you have rent
them. As you all know where
primary and general only
occur. Every years. We could
go to special elections but
special elections, time. We
have to get supervisor of
election and the cost of
special elections about a
100,000. When there haim it
also has money is there's
inflation. So just wanted to
reiterate our current process.
It's restricts our ability to
respond to emergency
situations. Critical
infrastructure. Includes a
presentation which. Okay.
>> what I like to do is
opening up to commissioner
questions I like to go without
a court order. That's all of
you
>> and then.
>> have around if you have a
question regarding though that
commissioners question. So
that we stay on the topic
because I found workshop
sometimes we bounce around and
I'd like to get something.
Clear through rather than
having to come back and
revisit it I made myself clear
that's how like to do that and
before we do that like the
record to recognize former
commissioner tom jones in the
audience. I don't. It is a it.
>> all right I'll start much.
>> yeah, I didn't really have
any through fairly thoroughly
I want to hear what the other
commissioners had to and on
the question part of that but
I'll save my comments. Have
any questions. Sounds good.
Question's only. What was the
law you recommend option want.
What your thinking.
>> take what happened.
>> wanted to be able to.
>> issue bonds increase
emergency situations. So we
thought this point. And bonds
when there is an emergency
that is crucial
>> are we want to make that
what we recommend you.
>> show that we're not looking
for a. We have already us you
to be able to issue.
>> well I'm a half of the
citizens. But what we want
something that the texas. Case
also and you know that public
statement taken care of life
like the most important thing
that we do with the government
being able to react to those
needs situations that are
timely important.
>> and that obviously that
makes lot of sense was going
conduct an emergency. With
regard to our water structure
richard so. I think we're at a
pace of about one possibly to
a year which at at that pace
would take us about 30 years
to work our way through those
certainly don't constitute an
emergency unless there's
another but. Certainly
represents serious issue to
our city and to our
infrastructure ability to
develop and grow. I I guess
what I'm saying I mean I sort
of know the answer to this
question with the same time
like to hear it is. Why not
address the elephant in the
room which we have serious
infrastructure and
transportation road project
issues in this city that we're
severely hampered from
addressing because we have to
go to a referendum to borrow
money for anything you know,
and you know if we don't take
that approach. We basically
for going to be opportunity of
ever getting ahead of the
curve on this.
>> the reason why that was not
included was well will start
fail and it automatically
covid public safety alert
which qualifies it. Fact out
others had a lack of planning
or for maintenance that led us
to this point and I mean over
decades not over the course
recent memory when the singer.
One here.
>> we need to figure that out
within our budget which is
allowed on the books permit to
do that and we need something
in addition to that we come to
you and say now point where we
need to. Addressed that issue
so issue could be brought that
for bonnie opportunities.
Addition to public safety or
emergency, but they shouldn't
sort of just be included in
here because big could.
>> we out that outs out
operate outside the bounds of
what we would call something
that was emergency and a
public meeting at
>> good okay does anybody have
any questions with reference
what vice mayor asked about
that situation. While we're on
that topic.
>> commissioner mcdowell.
>> just to make sure that I am
clear on the differences
general. General obligation
bond and the revenue bonds to
please kind of walk me not
just for myself to make sure
I'm understanding it. But for
the citizens. Because it's
bond but what are distinctive
differences between the 2. In
a nutshell.
>> yeah, general obligation
bond controlled by. For its
constitution which and that's
what we used to pay that you
have a impact. Whereas a.
Revenue. As got to pay other
revenue sources. Hey for those
box. Not for impact. Another
controller for look the
national
>> where is assessment all
because I don't see it listed
in here.
>> and the revenue bonds.
>> so so. It okay. Thank you
for that.
>> I have no further questions
on that one, but I do have
other questions.
>> I had a question about.
County tap which you said a
17 million it was in 2003 and
now it's about 28 ok news
that's per project is that
only do they have a
stipulation I'm sorry I missed
it emergencies and public
health and safety only
anything any project below
that amount. We're not require
it. Okay. And they have that
in place in general since 2003
that's when limit was set
right as a 2003. Equated every
year it's to a price index
since that all right and then
emergency situation would we
already have grandmothers for
that what constitutes an
emergency situation where's
that in port. Here in the city
know,
>> it would what you're
proposing recommending is
emergency for public safety.
So we only have 2 grandmothers
in place for when it's an
emergency we have officially
declare it.
>> carry emergency, yes, but 2
but take a bond out based on
that now. Know every in port.
City the bond any moment any
money that we're trying to to
get require a referendum.
Regardless of what is right
right where that money comes a
case.
>> all right and and it was
mentioned it apos a $100,000
for a special election. Right
now. Okay. The question here.
I teach. See okay. Back to
commissioner emerged to do a
question question.
>> now for going under the
emergency status and then
you're talking about option.
Does that mean that. Regular
maintenance of stuff in
projects would not have to go
to referendum or is it just
emergency.
>> if if it would be just
emergency and then I'm just a
reminder bonding it would. For
the majority has to be capital
projects that can be just
regular maintenance and major
projects and stuff like that
because you did put up the
police station.
>> and that right now is not
emergency status, so that
would fall under the emergency
that would still have to go to
referendum.
>> the other 2 options with 2
in 2, to and that's all I
thank you. Now it has to do
with this emergency definition
because. What happens because
of hurricane ian everybody's I
would assume absolutely
equates to what is an
emergency. I'm I'm very
concerned. Who determines and
how is that 2 tournament as to
what is an emergency. How is
it determined by emergency is
that determined by the
commission is that determined
by city managers that
determined by finance. How is
that defined. Defines it. That
to me is the crux of it
because.
>> like when the pool, the
pool sale. And it could have.
Been classified when our
original or that was 60 years
old.
>> was failing hayes is an
emergency we have to make
emergency repairs to this pool
or we're going to shut it down
and now the pool isn't
working. Is that emergency.
>> PRESIDENT Not so I'm very
concerned and cautious about
how that's done so maybe you
can help me or maybe this is
something that's going to have
to come back. A little k so.
>> hopefully the commission's
going to have to determine
whether or not the city isn't
take out a possum.
Depending on how language is
traffic if says that the what
it once in emergency is
declared either. PRESIDENT
Governor this book was body.
then this commission can
determine there's there's an
emergency related to.
Something that needs to the
repair. The commission at the
time will determine is an
emergency. They say this is an
emergency we need to get
prepared because it's going to
but the city versus. Have a
crack in the pool. The
commission term of the bat an
emergency they're pretty. I'm
living abroad. They are able
to the things that you
wouldn't mistake think time.
>> so.
>> when you say it's in a
declared emergency. And it
says local federal. State
declarations. If if there's a
federal declaration that
somewhere in the country with
that and mind.
>> these are my concerns
because there could be a state
emergency. That doesn't even
affect yes, yes, that's a good
question we would.
>> we've gotten such a way
that it would be limited
affecting. If cleared
throughout the city or I can
see. The language itself
hasn't been written yet would
know that is that it looks
like that of course that we
something you would take
mission. What if.
>> going back to my pool
example. What if there isn't
an a declared emergency. You
know hurricane ian obviously
is a declared emergency but
the pool has to get fixed or
it's going to get shut down in
this is an emergency repair.
But it's not too clear.
>> but you but we said the
city would to the commission
as what we believe cause that
is an emergency we have to be
approved by this board. So the
commission itself with the
tournament. The parameters we
did we give us. Over in this
direction pathway that world
we would bring you woods is an
example of.
>> either infrastructure
issues or problems that MAY
come up a do or don't qualify
put them in front of you for
your consideration any budget
only by the commission.
Direction would only get
approved for us issue do.
Thank you for that.
>> that's all ahead on that
subject mayor, I don't know if
anybody else wants piggyback
off that you had my man.
>> so basically if we were to
go in this direction. We could
ease not we could. We could
create a combination emergency
declarations in other words we
could say we could clean more
clearly define it. We could
say we're there to be a local
state or federal. Emergency
declaration which effects the
city in port. The city
commission in addition
consider sent an emergency. I
mean it triggers our ability
to. Incur debt. So it's in
that definition and that's
something we could with you
know. Weigle and whatever
additional support im put I
mean you could bring that back
to us so we could create that
kind condition that might
create a comfort level
obviously the red here
commission with bell says we
don't want to create a car
launch situation but we do
want to protect the city and
its ability to address
emergencies. And GOD forbid we
did another emergency like ian
in the short term and we
didn't have to really that the
financial wherewithal we had
we would have been tough spot.
And and it would cost what
because we wouldn't any
ability to borrow the money we
needed to address debris
removal, all kinds
infrastructure replacement,
you know it is important we do
this is just important we do
it in a way that creates
enough protection so that our
citizens. Have that comfort
level to know that there are
some good and strong
restrictions and and
identifiable and the amateurs
because in order to make this
change. We're going ask them.
The vote on so you know it
needs to be very clear it
needs to be concise should be
something that the public's
going to understand so that
they don't think we're just
asking for card wants to spend
dollars. So I some that could
be done. That's that's.
>> what for today also
direction of what you like to
see.
>> and we can
>> that for your
>> I just want to provide a
little bit of additional
clarification an option number
one. There's a couple
different moving parts in so
for example you have to be you
read the port commission MAY
authorize debt for declared
local state or federal
emergency. That's what I
second night. Public health
and here's some items under
that public health and safety.
First bullet.
>> response to regulatory
certainty to put that back up
because yeah that's I just it
change chain.
>> over the weekend haha.
Okay, so that we can see what
you're saying appreciate
problem. Thank you michael.
>> so the second for public
health and safety. Under
public so health and safety
there's a couple of items, the
first response to regulatory
agency. For example swiftmud
supports or water management
district department amendment
protection and they tell us is
the city we need to do
something. So this is
something cases going to come
to the commission for us. This
is the second item under this
public health and safety
bullet. Infrastructure,
including roads bridges, water
control structures, sanitation
water and sewer. So need to
put something in not.
>> in an emergency basis we
just this week we need to
water control structure. And
for that I be coming to the
commission as well any of
those infrastructure items. In
the 3rd bullet. Police fire
declared a disaster. So police
and fire MAY have a need. So
what's included under option.
Number one, we tried to do is
not only cover the emergencies
but some public safety type
things and infrastructure.
That can be very expensive
that would be included
underneath book this option.
Thank
>> yeah, I appreciate that is
actually that was going to be
basis of my my questions that
we do have 2 segments we're
not just talking about
declared emergencies. That
it's other things that can
come up that need to be
infrastructure, including
roads in our control
structures that that's when
something happens. That's not
related to an emergency, but
it's got be taken care of. I'm
thinking about. And you
remember this the great flood
of 92. When the water control
structures wouldn't work and
then a day just collapse that
wasn't in the clair emergency
that was just a lot of rain we
had. But that had to be taken
care of so that this this
would apply in that situation
this has to get fixed. And we
could. Authorized and that we
would is still to come before
the commission correct. Yes,
so either way everything was
still come before any
commission. So this would be
in the future any sitting
commissioners. They would have
decide whether it warrants
winning getting a bond. City
manager I don't speak it
causes. MADAM Mayor for.
>> he was in addition to
remember realize that. We do
want to ensure that the the
situations that were. One
person mostly what we're
seeing. We do want to it seem
like that we're going to just
start borrowing money to fix
things but out people having
their say so in those things
that wouldn't be hit that
we're trying carry out. It be
the word emergency in the
public in all of the public
health and safety item. We do
need to make sure that the
language is clear that it was
mostly on pushing so that it's
not something that's a look at
say. Well you didn't prepare
properly. And now you want us
to react quickly that's not.
>> right and I appreciate that
because I'm thinking could
have a road bridge collapse
has nothing to do with
anything else. But it. And and
that has to get it fixed. I
just had one of the question
about that the county cap.
>> and she was my question.
Come back to me. Curious
they would you know that has
come before them to prove.
They have kept does that mean
they'll have to come before
the county commissioners of
its over that 17 million or.
>> it's currently over
228 million anyway so it's
over that it require
referendum. Okay it's under it
goes to the board and they
still approve it yet correct
or not okay. I that's it for
my questions so MISTER Image.
>> yeah that's that's the spot
where I was looking at it if
we didn't the commissioner
stokes we didn't restrictions
per se and let's say the cap
is 28 million. And a tornado
comes through and takes out
the police station we're
looking at 50 million. We
would have to go back out to
referendum to go ahead and
make up that difference. Under
option, that we could decide
as a commission. To go ahead
and approve going out there
and doing that.
>> revenue for dinner and the
van.
>> I just want to make
understand there's
restrictions it's not a type
thing going out there to spend
spend but I don't ian came
through you look at the
debris, we're looking at what
you have been on the slide
45 million dollars that we had
to pay out just for debris,
cleanup. What if we did have a
second ian. You know. We would
have been stopped and we would
have been relying on a lot of
the neighboring communities.
And really still be stuck in
probably still devastated to
this day rather than being in
the position that we were and
getting everything cleaned up
quickly and getting our
citizens back to work and and
working properly there still
some damage out there. Yes,
but not as much as could have
that so. Yes, I just want to
make sure it still came to the
commission if it was over that
cap or that went out to the
public and then now you're
taking time your cost more
special said you know they're
so. Thank you. All right
commissioner mcdowell. I
cannot recall when we've had
special election for bonds.
That's always been something
that was done a general
election. So I'm not too. Sure
we need to be concerned with a
special election. But anyways
my my concern is we have to
sell this to citizens and why
appreciate what the city
manager is saying that then
says.
>> for unforeseen incidences
like go back to what assistant
city manager said that sounds
like it's also for water
control structures a police
station and other things and
that grant I understand it's
going to come back to the
commission. With the to be
able to issue the bonds.
Thinking about how are we
selling this too. The citizen
and making sure that we have
parameters in place for like a
dollar limit I don't know
10 million dollars is our
limit. And that we then they
they still have authority as
citizens to be able to approve
or deny the bond request,
especially if it's. Revenue
I'm wanting to get kind of
feedback from you guys on.
>> leader of the special
election. The fact that they
have it has occurred you know
frequency you mentioned in the
past put in there because if
there was an emergency really
need to then go have special
and action in order to have
this referendum put on about 4
people to react to so it's not
based on what is in the past
it's about making that we're
protected for the future and
again the infrastructure
improvements that are efforts.
We need to make sure that what
we're seeing and what is
understood that the citizens
is on the best. It is of their
behalf. The fact that a public
safety issue has occurred
because this infrastructure
has failed. And so we action
needs to be taken that is
either timely to make sure no
one knows is her is her or the
financial implications are
working in the city's favor
specific save the money and as
able to make sure that you
know several of the districts
in order if we were to not
have bonding authority it
would allow for. The
decreasing up to the east a
rate increases. It would be
able to be able to to be able
to pay it out into more term
systematic manner as opposed
to having a large increase you
know we didn't get to our
citizens and their ability to
react to it therefore we
asking too reactive into more
proactive way that we play.
But you said. The failure of a
water control structure.
>> and I agree that is an
emergency whether it's
declared or not it is an
emergency it failed. When I
heard MISS Julie talking it
sounded more like a.
>> we need to do these water
control structures or hey this
bridge is close to failing.
>> so I'm hearing different
language and intentional on
what this is going to be for
public safety. Let me clarify
for so.
>> in an example of what
really over saying if we need
to fix 10 water control
structures welcome you with
authority or public safety
needs because they don't under
the direct authority that
asking for permission put them
on a regular. A rep for the
way you would do today in was
still a little bit. But that
those were building and we
said hey in the next. Well,
they're going to all out that
we really need to do something
we haven't been there we can
make it work. It was say, hey
we need to talk about doing
this right now otherwise we
wait for the next election
going there and then move with
it as usual. The authority
that we're asking are you just
been now does not remove any
all authority to go to the
citizens. We're asking you for
what you as a board and they
staff should be very aware of
as it relates to how do you
keep the public safe protect
taxpayers dollars that was 2.
>> thank you for that
clarification that that helped
a lot thank you. Vice mayor.
>> yeah, I'm in that same it's
basically. Things that are.
Just seeing for emergencies.
Don't happen in ordinary
course of business. So what we
do see that there as city
manager said infrastructure
issue that was looming and
eminent MAY not what would
qualify as a serious
emergency, but clearly
something that is going to
fail or is imminent to look
those conditions can be built
into that option. One. With
the proper language that you
know we would you know we
would put some around our
weeks. We bonded and again
reiterate what city manager
said. This month there late
season, hurricane. But
devastating proportion. We
would have no option. We would
be sure forest. As we sit now,
hold a special election soon
humanly possible that you know
something we could get
permission to do it and that
would cost the city 100 grand
a pop everything else it will
cost because. Right now we're
limited to every 2 years
thing and it's true emergency
at and then offseason. We
would have no option but to go
out and hold a special
election polls point to that
why that come up the other
thing we can additionally due
to create some say the courts
as you mentioned they shun is
create a super majority. The
simple majority of commission
3 to 2 super-majority which
require for in this case out
of 5. You know, that's that
much more comfort level that
the vast majority everybody on
commission so comfortable
with. Board. Absolutely
everyone.
>> the. The request of the
only authority the burden of
for that it live on you know
we have the burden of proof to
make sure that you understand
the request and we can
validate the concern that the
emergency authorization would
be necessary and needed that
is it you would not authorize
it and then we would sort of
going the way that we were
going. So we feel very
strongly that in those
situations where it was it we
would have information to
provide you with a book that
will in that decision on
happens is if you witness it.
>> just to finish up the short
commissioner mcdowell takes
put the sort of
proper perspective. Staff did.
Get it touch on it initially
michael we're the only city.
These kinds of all of this
kind of restriction. We are
some little municipality we
are huge. We're 250 million
dollar budget with. Hearing
the 100,000 people. Order to
respond in order adjust order
to properly one. A government
decisive city this size there
has to be some level of social
already and there to be some
level of that's really what's
being asked here there MAY
have very good reasons in the
past.
>> for the citizens of this
city. Question. Its leadership
and 2. It's these kinds of
restrictions but as the city
grows. It is just unreasonable
and and get on just want to
say it people take issue with
but if the people of this city
can have confidence in a
structured system of debt.
With the proper safeguards and
the proper decision making of
its government and its
leadership and its elected
officials and it just needs to
elect new officials but by
needs to have the flexibility
operate a city this size and
that needs to be something
everybody needs to think about
we're going to change this
citizens. North port have to
decide that. They're willing
to buy into otherwise old time
we're spending here absolute
waste of time citizens need to
take some comfort in the fact
that we have professionally
run city and we have elected
officials that really worked
for the best interest of the
people here and and I hope
that they're ready to make
that leap of faith.
>> group to add to that vice
mayor is we are very good.
That is very cold with getting
outside independent
third-party opinions advice
well, even when the situation
warrants so that you're not
still leave about lot going
people within the wall to all
or that the commission.
>> all right. Thank you i
thank you. Vice mayor and to
get back what you just said
there because at night
crossings off my list, but yes
we have a representative form
of government so we are have
been elected to make decisions
and sometimes are not easy
decisions. But their decisions
that have to be made people
complain about government
moving so slowly sometimes
because we have all these
restrictions in place rather
than allowing those that were
elected
in our are very qualified
staff to make. The best
decisions to
move forward. Something like
this that we have in place is
very. It's very hindering I
mean if we had a real problem
have go through all this and
people wonder how comments on
fixed yet. Well we have to go
through all this. I wouldn't
want my last question is and
I'm sorry if you answer this
have and option one is is
there a cap. It's been
established.
>> not not with option on. But
with option 3 there is a cap
emergency. Is reason why staff
for option, one which is what
recommending why he didn't
recommend a calf with that
one.
>> in case they are emergency
situation is more than and.
>> and some of lake with the e
and you saw some of that is
significant.
>> you just say that the
county up to 20. 23 9 yeah and
change.
>> all right commissioner I
>> from my level of comfort.
>> there really needs to be a
cap. And I understand that
emergencies happen in that you
know just the debris remove
all along was 43 million but
this way we have we have the
benefit of being able to issue
a bond for an emergency up to
a specific dollar amount. But
then we also have our fund
balance policy to help pick up
that slack. This point in time
it really is and what we want.
Voters get to decide on so we
have to make sure voters have
a level of comfort not me not
anybody sitting up here not
staff. The voters need that
level of comfort and I really
think a cap MAY give them that
I don't know I don't want to
speak for our voters but to
leave it. Open ended.
Especially after the last
referendum. And the feedback I
received from the last
referendum. Am I I am
concerned that it MAY not
pass. So I'm just throwing
that out there for a book 0.2
and think about. So if. If
this referendum. Does not pass
let me back up. We're going to
be doing this referendum in
primary or general election.
>> does that time.
>> how we doing this
referendum that we're
discussing today are we doing
that at a primary referendum
or at the general.
>> the general 0.4. What what
are
>> all right so. The public
over the language to about. I
thought wouldn't
>> we were still waiting on
direction from our consultant
on the timing of when to put
it on, but if we have to elect
its next year ideally getting
the bomb lane which approval
would go in the first one in
the project that was related
what was needed as we know
right you know that of our
police station would be on the
second win in the general
election. The first getting
approved second it election
would be for the actual
product is so now that's ideal
world and it MAY not work that
way but as we continue to work
with the consultant I think
we'll have more information as
it relates to the timing the
report to you.
>> and that is exactly why I'm
asking this question if it's
imperative that we know when
this is going on because I
don't want to squander
election to do the things that
the commission has spoke about
water control structures. The
police station. Bridges, those
things still have to get done
with or without this bond
referendum. And I would hate
to wander an opportunity to be
able to put something out to
bond which would then delaying
these projects.
>> as we move forward with
the.
>> deeper dive into the needs
of our issues we're cautiously
aware that we do not want to
put a. Value in general
election people what they do
half of billion dollars with a
b dollars that number is going
to be. Intimidating for any
voter in a bubble. So being
able to ask them would you
language in pudding a high
bond that on the same ballot
is almost certain certainly
not to get it past trying to
break it up but as it believes
all items you just mention
that could go over and that we
need those items are all
needed. But we will likely
would not be bringing all
those I don't ask for both
consideration. In the fall
election of 2024. The cap. It
if you decide to put a cap
over their support a little
whether it's arbitrary number
that's but let's also remember
there are various ways to
engage our citizens before you
get to election. Instead of
just waiting at the elections
c as a commissioner when you
would say, yes, I feel like
this is something we should
vote all survey due to get
different things in theory in
order to gauge their
temperature that would help a
decision
>> and follow up with on that
same meeting state statute
does not allow government to
expend money and if we were to
do surveys that's kind of
spending money. So we have to
be very cognizant on how we
educate and how we get a pulse
of our citizens because we the
government entities cannot
spend money can a way I didn't
say mail.
>> I'm pretty sure there is
there are 3 ways to survive,
but I get your point we can't
we can't spend money survey
survey isn't the only way to
engage the community if you
want to get opinions before
you make your decision. But
point is we don't want
following way and say oh a
referendum is the way that
commissioner
>> yeah this is probably for
the city clerk. When it comes
down to the special elections.
>> approximately how long
would it take. Should go for a
special election or
referendum. And I note. I'm
timing and stuff like that we
can piggyback. Often the
election that could be coming
up like. Let's say next year,
but it's all through the
supervisor of elections and
the reason I'm getting to this
point is. And hit in SEPTEMBER
of 2022. The next election was
NOVEMBER of 2022. No I don't
believe there was enough time
to be able assess our needs
and then put it on a
referendum in that three-month
window is that truer.
>> I would say that pretty I
don't have a way to determine
how long it would take to get
something to a special
election because it ultimately
is up to the county. We just
let them know that we have an
item our special election. And
we can present dates to them,
but it is ultimately up to
them to say yes or no we can
do that if there is an
election in another
municipality. I know from the
last time we talked about it
with the they will say why can
you not. On this one and
piggyback on that. So it is
ultimately up to them and if
they have a lot of things
going on with the supervisor
of elections that will also
push it out I know they
reviewing some election. Some
things that were going on with
the actual election process
this last time and they said
that we would not have been
able to get a special election
at the time that we're looking
at last time they would have
pushed us to other
municipalities.
>> and our falls into the
hands of other people at that
point. Depending on the time
lines and stuff. You know
it's. It's very difficult if
we're an emergency situation
and we need to take care of
stuff so. You know, I just
want to get that out there
because it it wouldn't have
happened. You know and and a
timely matter even it was 6
months later. Still a little
bit too long to get our needs
and our citizens care.
>> commissioner.
>> the the answer to what we
would do in that situation is
that's why you have good
financial controls in place to
have whether it's to preserve
that is.
>> and with the excess of that
or is there the cash flow
ability to handle emergencies
which is what we were very
fortunate to have based on our
staff and our. Pre planning to
order to cover that without
having to ask the citizens for
evening as related to gotten
reimburse a timely manner so
we're coming back sort of
feeling that book it back up.
But in the example and the end
of another union that's what
makes those vulnerable in the
the outside soul the county
and it's that but help was
totally out of our control but
I know it's a citizen looking
back and saying why didn't you
city of port. Change and alter
your abilities when you could
in a time that you could have
done it as opposed to leaving
us double in a time of need.
so this what sort of help
efforts to taxes for that.
>> and I agree with you
because we did have end and
then we have a threat of I
doubt and luckily that wasn't
as devastating as was, but it
could have that. Yes are you
know, and we are in hurricane
season once again and
everything so. We go through
every year hopefully it's most
most of the missiles but hey
and got a spat and we need to
learn from that. So I
appreciate all your efforts.
Thank you.
>> commissioner mcdowell my
last one has to do with
timing. Commissioner much
touched on how long it takes
to do a special election I
know when we the special
election to get mayor white.
It took approximately 5
months. To draft an ordinance
and talk to the supervisor of
elections and actually hold
that election.
>> but not all intents and
purposes. Issue a bond for
whatever emergency reason if
this was to get passed by the
voters would take 5 to 6
months anyways because they
have to talk with council. How
is this going to be done so
that it's not affecting our
credit rating. We have to
issue ordinance the commission
has to cure it twice and I
pray that this is going to be
done by ordinance and not
resolution. But that's part of
that conversation of what
we're looking for. So this
isn't quick and easy thing
like oh we have an emergency
and then a month later we can
do to readings. So unless you
guys have things in the
pipeline. That we're not aware
of that our emergency that
would scare cheaper side of
me. Government is quick and
easy we all recognize that,
but if you have.
>> there is in jail where you
have an election in NOVEMBER.
It could get done in the 5
months that you referenced in
mayor do why would you not do
that as opposed to waiting to
something that happens in
NOVEMBER and then beginning
that process from the you
should really be able to react
as a government in a way it
allows you to preserve public
safety as quick as possible.
Not quite private quick the
quicker government quick and
that still means they're all
the right steps that does not
mean taking shortcuts that
does not mean doing anything
that is it in the best fiscal
responsibility.
>> of municipalities.
>> it just means that you as
board would have the right to
make a decision that was in
the interests of the most
people order to make sure that
we were the homeless and it's
possible.
>> understand that, but my
point is comparing the
timeline to do ordinance talk
with on council get the
commission to readings it's
going to take 5 or 6 months
just like a special election,
what but with a special
election. I recognize the fact
that the voters ultimately
would decide is this something
they want to approve if. Kathy
forced doesn't get past. I
agree something needs to get
past. What that looks like we
have to be very careful
because the voters are the
ones in control. Not and I
really hope that there are
going to be dollar limits on
all I've got to say because.
Always to get something passed
and if it's not feeding the
appetite of the voters. It's
not going to passed.
Vice mayor and that I think of
public comments before I start
looking for some consensus,
yeah just to clarify.
>> this issue
>> special
>> election. And then the by
just to to a pond. Okay is a 5
to 7 month process. I mean
realistically whatever time
frame it takes. But it's you
to wait. Until a special
election in order to begin
that process you're talking
about what potentially could
be a half a year or more. To
get to the special election to
get the voters to approve.
Which would start the process
obtaining the so we're talking
about the time with that I
think is what city manager was
trying to point out so that
you know to me.
>> a no-brainer I mean, can
you bring up the first slide
option, one because. There
were 2 parts to okay so we
have a public health and
safety response to regulatory
agencies. Responding to a 3rd
party a party that tells us
something needs to be done.
When we get to infrastructure,
including roads bridges, water
control structure sanitation
water and sewer. Police fire
and the clear disaster could
items. For a and public safety
and health and response to
regulatory agencies which
gives us flexibility a
catastrophic hurricane and
tornado GOD forbid the course
the city a 100 million
dollars. I mean to be tracked
to shift iin 20 25 million
dollar cap would be. Insane.
But. Roads bridges water
structures. Pro project. Might
be reasonable in those cases
because the dollar. Costs to
replace them or address the
problem. Or certainly up a
lesser dollars value and MAY
give voters more for comfort
trying to. Rich the issue that
commissioner mcdowell
springing up. It's esta this
is going to have to meet. You
know comfort level of our of
our voting public out there so
I'm trying to think how do we
protect our souls from
something shuman this in
nature. First is what this
what we would consider it in
crisis road bridge water
control structure nature but
that had some parameters on
dollars point is doable it's
certainly within your free
too.
>> do that to the set the
limits and senate multipliers
which would increase over time
get more so we could something
later with the previous that
they get the aside from our
council that about 3 to 4
months to get the
>> that would give something
to play with create a little
more structure to whole thing
so it's a slight modification
option one. Should chicken
getting a little option 3 into
into option. One.
>> it's.
>> it also clear we want to
remind that. There are units
other than just so there, you
know everything just in the
bonn bucket.
>> okay match or you're on
here yes that I going to say
okay all right. If I MAY yes I
have.
>> on takes about 3 to 4
months to issue. As the bonds
that the voters approved for
price boulevard already been
issued.
>> because you to go until
you're faced with the design
is the needs of the project
we're going the project based
on what that change just off
of the timeline what it the
time and now. The other I
would say was about you know
the the might that look
something happening in issue
in MAY. Most of this but
special election. And I heard
that a clerk
>> ration regarding on factors
that could affect that.
>> the special elections
kaufman we're talking about
it. You it with decision
without. Using potentially
$100,000 of dollars when
everyone would say yes we
wanted ask the emergency at a
situation. You probably
exercise your authority as an
elected official at the say
well I need to go back to the
citizens asked are the place
is. Going do now that would
this state to replace to us it
all within the scope of
responsibilities that we are
charged you know all
representing important people
are.
>> if
>> I can continue because city
manager opened the door, we're
not just talking we're talking
about other decked being
incurred. Is all of that
whatever avenue of debt being
incurred whether its bond or
is that covered in what we're
talking about today.
>> yes, been a lot lots of
talk about getting the voters
confidence and I know I've
talked to people that and I
know people my life we just
don't want to spend money on
anything but I I. Do want they
just they want break. But when
things have to be done they
have to be to spend money on
things that I've never and all
the years lived here have
never known commission to just
spend money on something for
religiously in. And it's a set
was a big mistake. I mean
everything was well thought
had a plan. Staff presented.
What what's being done. This
idea that I know there are
people out there that think
that. If we're not watching
what you're doing you're going
to be spending money to send
people to on a trip around the
world or something don't know
what but we're talking about
emergency situations we're
talking about public health
and safety being able to make
those decisions and get things
done so we can continue to
live our lives and not have to
worry about these what I call
nuts and bolts of living like
that's what your job is to
take care of those things and
what you need to get it done.
And I say great this is what
we need to I guess we do have
discussed about caps I like
mayers idea different
different. The 2 agents here
with the 2 check marks those
are 2 completely different
segments here so. At this time
I'd like to ask if there's any
public comment.
>> jasmine bowman. Public
referendum should always be
part of any decisions made
about more borrowing. Thank
you.
>> all right, yes,
>> wasn't what it what next
and what you we want from you.
Yeah so the conversation that
we heard you know we will
bring you back. Lately that
you know has a 3 combined
based on you know the cap
conversation definitions about
the emergency what does that
mean in how to better get your
comfort level. There is his
push them out in ways that
would still he MAY be caps or
either either suncap for some
guidance toward taub of dollar
amounts can factored into your
decision to what the upside it
>> ok so you don't need a
consensus for those things it
got
that. I can sense it would be
great what you're looking for
specifically but we know that
having to come back. What to
present stick to the advisory
work but also to bring back
what you
>> all right. Okay.
>> the floor, yes.
>> always a question that to
MAY be trying to prepare or
trying to present a consensus.
Are we not overly qualifying
this. We've had. A pretty
flexible discussion here.
Wondering what it. And again,
I'm looking for direction city
manager as well as as city
attorney. Do we want bring for
the consensus or do you folks
have a comfort level for the
general parameters of what
we're looking for and see what
might brought concerned only
about us. And not giving you
as much flexibility to really
come up with something you've
heard everything we've had to
say we're also missing one
commissioner and and this is
not something that that's
going to a real but can final
decision it's going to be a
bit of a process here. If I'm
just wondering do you need us
to really do a consensus.
>> up to that you've that city
attorney it says it as it
relates to getting the most
definitive. The I don't you
get consensus on any direction
you could not all of the unit,
what that should look like you
qualify, but is no box in
district to what we're able to
sort of. Explore for greenback
your final decision made that
that was the ways that we kept
the bucket. But I believe that
we all have been given
sufficient direction and her
under if permission for us to
go continue to develop this to
the process. We are based on
what we do
launch yes, are related to
getting the language to give
leverage you know on timeline
part of the reason why it sort
of get to that I separate
meeting early 2024. So so
based on what we heard you
know I feel very as to what
you do, but I would like to
with it
that was to
>> I respect what you're
saying with not having
consensus it would make. Do do
that highlights that we are
trying to get into in hitting
the charters current
requirements to go to charter
review advisory board to get
there. They're advising
commission if you could give
wrought. Consensus something
that you would like to see it
would. It would be helpful if
you choose not to get it
that's fine to teenagers
office too. Provide.
Correction or provide language
based on
>> so do I have someone. If
the consensus.
>> talk you want to try for
>> consensus construct. City
attorney city. And that staff
to come back with. A proposed.
Charter amendment. Based on
option one. We situation of.
>> apps.
>> non-emergency or clemson
some caps. Rich you trying to
keep general what's possible.
So something more you'd like
to see their might.
>> whatever you
>> we want to add something
that.
>> I I understand why city
attorney needs a consensus is.
This is why. I really don't
like workshops because we
could if we had it on
commission meeting.
>> we could gain a motion and
majority will look at that
workshop now we just have we
have only a consensus as
opposed to clear and decisive
direction to city manager.
>> if we start small small
bites of the apple.
>> talk about caps.
>> talk about what we want in
this recommendation for option
one it might give him a little
bit clearance putting it all
in one bucket little bites of
the apple of buck. Well it
might be more beneficial.
>> let's say we with that with
your consensus that was pretty
lot it didn't set any cap
limits on set have caps for
those 2 bullet check both to
components there so
commissioner average.
>> yeah I was I was in
agreement with that. With the
saying being with the caps
going on, but I would like to
stay conducive
to what the counting I don't
want to cut it short that. You
know there 28 mountain. I I'm
giving you a cut off, but
right around 30 million. Would
be were I rather than having
it all wide open. You know on
those other areas. So that's
what I'm looking at not giving
you a number that's just. I
can agree with some tips. All
right so yes.
>> I'm a yes, vice mayor of
I'm a yes with that and
started commissioner mcdowell.
What happens when you bring it
back all up to the voters and
you.
>> please be cognizant if you
want this pass. Have to make
sure that voters are going to
be amenable to caps 30 million
dollars.
>> sitting up here is totally
different than sitting out
there and if I had to vote on
this is a citizen, not being
elected official not
understanding 30 million
dollars would scare I mean
it's a #
#
not.
>> that's going to feature
discount you're you're you're
so can either be safe and
prepared.
>> or I
>> I get that but we have to
make sure that the citizens
are going to be amenable to
that if you need another or
yes, it
>> thank you MADAM Mayor, the.
>> rose bowl to make their
decisions that will be both a
vote on behalf of what they
think is in the best interest
of their so you as a board
today we're asking you which
is what you're trying quit
which is the thing about the
most people and the good for
the most of city. That's the
difference in so we look at a
workshop shot we have these
conversations has rescission
that can you imagine tech
overnight meeting. At that
acting to the already busy
agenda. We need direction so
we don't go in. There are hold
the waste time way since that
wasting taxpayer dollars. So
our goal here is to get
because does get the direction
we can then narrowly focus our
efforts into something that
not only is time since might
be just important it is
sensitive sort of of a pickle
of that that we. Property for
the future. But we have to
make sure that we get the
right direction from you over
that city doing both at the
day
>> okay, so.
>> clarity what you are asking
for caps when you look at
casper category.
>> that's bring up end of that
training that for screening to
check mark.
>> so basically it's consensus
bring back with us option one.
With some caps on. 3 are the
bottom to infrastructure,
including roads bridges, water
control structure sanitation
water and sort police fire and
the clear to falls on the
public's health safety that
would be whatever cap is that
would apply to all 3 of those.
>> little not necessarily as
public health and safety with
but that's what they're
determining its public health
and safety the regulatory
agency though I would to a
cap. On regular tour on the
response regulatory agencies
with mike came in made a
declaration we need to do
something it turned out to be
30 million dollar expense and
we have a cap per event of
15 million dollars or
20 million dollars that would
severely restrict to me the
bottle to the latest there are
the items were. My personal
opinion I felt there were
some. That could be
instituted, but when it comes
to. The clear local state
federal emergency or in terms
of public health and safety a
response to a regulatory
agency, things I don't think
you can put a cap on should
put a cap on because they
could be huge and they could
be extremely restrictive. It's
the bottom 2 items there that
I fell. What was some dollar
cops. Get what you want some
back without.
>> and then at that time we
could discuss we wanted to
break it up my understanding
was those 3 bullet points
under public health and
safety.
>> not matter we're so I was
it was it would be a cap on
the emergency category the
capital put a category. I
would look and see what the
county doesn't on with it is
you know per project I really
are there was appetite to
follow the county does what I
thought was very good to keep
us in alignment with one of
the you know jurisdictions
around so maybe following
model based on how they do it
because we shouldn't be
sitting here trying to
reinvent the wheel. Let's do
something that someone
successfully around this good
that we is sort of back of
that model okay.
>> and when it comes back
that's we could night that.
>> commissioner average you
know one last thing and
basically they're following
what state allows. So that's
what that's about in line. You
know in my opinion so we can't
do anything illegal.
>> did you say had something
else turning the mayor that
we've this meant.
>> manager could make a all
right. We public. Okay. All
right so when you want to move
on to. Item anybody need short
break stake. Frank what do you
that also in your go bags you
should have non-perishable
batteries or all power goes
out we good break on 97 any
break any emergency
information all right we're on
to.
>> item d discussion and
possible direction regarding
the draft of not unified land
development code chapter for
site development part. City
manager this is your
>> they came this active going
to development co chapter for
part 2 is.
>> a lot what the commission
have received in review over
the course both we are headed
towards completion of this
very sooner rather than later
kind excited. But we do have
our team here on the table and
to go through this with us a
little further as we get word.
It would indirectly the
workshop, so that we can bring
for some action in the future
over to this case.
>> I you want it.
Good for the
record katie while planet 3.
>> with the city of port so
today we're going to talk
about you want to chapter for
part 2. So my presentation
basically covers updates on 23
am. After 4 part 2 I'm going
to go over what we want last
time least briefly just so
that you know what we cover
last time what the second part
is when you go over the
article specific some major
changes. I included the
consensus items. There's I
think 6 of what the next steps
are and then questions and
comments at the end. We don't
have any major project
chapters one through of. Are
you guys have all seen. We
don't have any major changes
to one of the big changes is
that we're going to have 6
chapters instead of 5 chapters
we're going to have signs to
their own chapter they will be
chapter 5 that was sort of at
the recommendation of our
legal counsel just in case in
the future we are ever
challenge shifts. It will
remain chapter and being
spread out through multiple
chapters, it just sort of
helps us. So that's the big
change. There's that chapter 5
the signs. And that that will
have 6 chapters
>> so chapter 4 is all that
site development in our
previous workshops, we went
over for so that talked about
rules measurements. Buffers
development standards fire
safety lighting.
>> bran improvements open
space parking loading. Our 2
include storm water
subdivisions transportation
and utilities. Really in part
to not a whole changed from
what our current code says a
lot of these are sort
engineering specific type
standards and so we there's
just a huge amount of change.
Article 10 is on storm water.
Basically the major change to
most of these is that the
engineering or public works
department is going to create
an engineering design manual.
So a lot of those specifics
about like road complexion
and. You know water flow
things that are specific to
engineering standards are not
going to be part of the uldc
which will make it a little
bit easier for them to update
over time as they need to
know. So. Nothing earth
breaking shattering and storm
water. Most of the changes
again are going to be and
changes. I'm annual we just
took out all of the specifics.
So the stormwater chapters up
same as what we have now
subdivisions again about the
same as what we have now. The
big change. If follow the big
changes that a lot of our
general standards had been
located the subdivision
section we instead have moved
those out likable sections and
the rest of chapter
subdivision still has
basically the same
requirements for accuracy
easements lots blocks
orientation natural features
monuments and those are
monuments like the serving
monuments. I'm like a little
monuments that are in the
corner of your property. The
stakes that sort of park space
public amenities roads and
sidewalks storm water
management utilities and and
the subdivision section
specifically for roads and
sidewalks stormwater
management utilities basically
it says look at the
requirements that are in the
rest of chapter 4. Article 12.
So the transportation. So
basically it took the
categories from what was kurt
previously in our
transportation section or the
roads and sidewalks section.
Again all of those specific
engineering standards will be
in the engineering design
manual. They're currently
working on that is being
developed with this in mind.
>> and so. This article just
gives a lake. Overview tells
you that you have to have a
public public works permit. It
gives you some general, you
know minimum right of way with
its turning right you guys
that we require sidewalks that
we want bike lanes a multiple
trails and how to do street
names we sort of at us as a
skeleton so that the
engineering design manual can
fill in the gaps. Article 13,
it's all about water.
>> this is basically the same
as our current water standards
or utilities. Most of it is
water-related some of that is
not a water related. With
utilities. This is really just
a reorganization of all of the
standards that we currently
have so that they're a little
bit easier understand. So we
broke them down into potable
water systems wastewater
systems reuse water systems
other utilities. So that other
utilities is where. Table
electricity. Those types of
things would be drafted. That
sort my brief overview of the
chapter. Because this is sort
of a. And sharing specific
section.
>> we don't have a whole lot
of more details that we really
need to go into of course
we're happy to answer
questions we did have 6
consensus items that were sort
of a combination of the part
one and part 2 because one of
the commissioners was absent
for the workshop for the part
one. So I can either go over
questions now and then go
through the consensus items or
we can the consensus items it
is up to commission.
>> questions first. What was
present it on to the consensus
items. Look to see what they
want no. Yeah I liked and I to
know what the consensus items
are okay.
>> so we have 6 consensus
items. I sort of lump them
together by topic. So the
first relates to large palms
being substituted for canopy
trees on a one to one ratio.
This was.
>> landscaping materials
offers a landscaping
landscaping. Master treeless.
>> an article 3 of the
chapter. So this is from part
one.
>> one of the commissioners
has requested that we do not
allow substitution on a one to
one ratio that we keep it that
the 3 to one.
>> large palms as well as
smaller palms. That would be
my first consensus item.
>> okay.
>> so if you're on go from
here about what want to ask
questions. Man. Input half you
got and with regard keep that.
Yeah there go. I personally
have to get of palm trees a as
kind of petri site I think you
know a lot of countries like
themselves to I'm not big fan
black and and and the other
options there from my gauge
citizens that I've talked to
their awful like slump, but
I'm curious as to what our.
You know our promise people
you know what what are they
telling us. You know are they
comfortable with this is that
their recommendation.
>> I don't remember where.
>> ratio or the one to one
ratio for the alms that we
they're specifically large
large alms they have over 20
feet of spread
>> palm fronds so you're
looking at particularly large
palm trees, the one to one
ratio is used in other
jurisdictions for these types
of palms. Staff thinks
separate allowing these in
some instances you know
landscaping code already.
Doesn't allow you to
substitute more then I think
it's. 40% of your tree
requirement with palm trees
anyways. So this would be a
substitution. That would allow
some variation the types of
trees that we would counted
tours canopy trees I think it
would just add variety.
>> and with regard to number 2
here. When we talk about palm
trees as street trees, the
fine street trees for us.
>> so the city has a street
tree requirements. For new so
this would be a type of tree
that developer could in the
right of as a street tree.
Street trees have multiple
purposes there to provide
shade they help with. As crazy
as it sounds. Traffic and
speeding. They help. And a lot
of what so there. Well a palm
tree is not going to provide
the shade overstreet that an
oak tree wilpon spot interfere
with. The pavement. You're
still going to get a lot of
those other benefits of having
the trees. And again it will
probably provide some variety.
Are streetscape.
>> commissioner now the only
reason why requested this is
because the other poems that
were in that section, many of
them were 3 to one. The 2 that
I had requested was the royal
palms that cuban in florida.
Be replaced at 3 to one also
because the other ones are 3
to that that is the reason why
was requesting it and we need
a consensus on it. It's not
all palms are one to one.
There are many other ponds
that are 3 to one in that
list.
>> okay MISTER Image. I know
she had just mention the royal
but do queen palms fall under
that category as large funds
as well.
>> I mean look at now.
There
another name that those would
go by.
>> queen bee bombs.
>> I don't see queen palms
specifically on the list and
double checked, I tried to
include florida native.
>> and most of treeless came
from our existing true but I
did.
>> I don't see that on there,
but it could be a goes by a
different name that could be
true.
>> my main thing when they're
going 3 to one and I
understand how big the royals
get their normally they're in
a great thing are 3 to one.
>> so it's kind of hard group
these large trees in an area.
All right so I I could deal
with the large palms as a one
to one. And should they be
allowed to street trees now
this is where my my main
question comes census on the
developer who's maintained and
all those palm trees. Because
once they become on the story.
That it could be the city's
responsibility to make sure
that those palms are trimmed
and taken out of roadway and
and you've already mentioned
that yeah there are less
damaging than the oak trees,
but I believe in some of your
areas or you've got re
barriers that are going to be
place to where the roots will
not go towards the sidewalks
and everything so. You know
it's sort of like a. And I'm
>> I think it depends on the
ownership but I'm not.
>> entirely sure how we deal
with that now.
>> public works director so if
palm trees or whatever trees
are planted. Within the city
right of way that's an
improvement to the right of
way that the property they
would be the responsibility of
the property owners take.
>> and if they don't maintain
and we've got sanitation
trucks going down there or
getting battered problems
oakland's whatever the tree
MAY be.
>> how are we going to rectify
that we're going to code
enforcement first. If it's a
safety issue then public works
will take care. I'm a little
iffy on the on the street tree
basis but I understand it's
different and it MAY be more
welcoming because we are in
the south and tropical this at
other so. I just didn't want
big wants to be grouped
together because that's going
to nearly impossible.
>> and just to clarify so that
should that should want a 1,
2, 3 ratio 9 one to
>> know for the large palms,
we have a few that are one to
one and there few other palm
trees that are 3 to one ratio
to this question was
specifically about the one to
one ratio on to want that.
>> large it's a big secret,
I'm not not favor of this at
all palms are. Not trees and
especially we're talking about
canopy canopy goes over.
>> whereas palms really don't
provide that these are all
palms, you have here planted
at cocoa and also at culver's
and people talk all the time
about a sea of asphalt those
parking lots because palms
were used as opposed to. To
actual trees, there's a reason
again for canopy trees, it's
to it's to provide.
>> cooling shade.
>> and not going to get the
same type of cooling effects
that you do with trains. So
when you have the water that
comes up out through so they
the trunk and out to the
leaves up to 15%. You can have
your temperature reduce under
trees that doesn't happen
under pump. And things street
trees. Palms are not going to
give you that kind of shame
and we're talking about
providing shade for not just
the roadway, but typically
talking about sidewalks and as
as the commissioner emerich
said there are ways to
accommodate the religious and
that really is not as an
exception when you're talking
about problems with sidewalks
because I've been up to all
the developments up and
sarasota it's city of sarasota
and with the county and
honore. And even when they did
have some have some lifting it
placed sidewalk and that's it
they kept the trees they
didn't take the trees out
because that's the reason why
you're walking sidewalks and
biking on the sidewalks is
because shaded you're not
going to get that was was a so
I'm not going to get chance
for me for this what we want
to do.
>> commissioner mcdowell I
only spoke to number consensus
because I thought we were just
taking them one at a time but
since they're being lumped
together this is precisely why
I the street trees. The palm
trees for street trees, they
don't offer sheet.
>> they're just there for
pretty nurse to commissioner
and richest point I was
concerned also about the
maintenance of them.
>> yeah the property owner
supposed to maintain but. We
know how that works
>> I am amenable to and
requested that they be removed
for.
>> palm trees being shade
trees and street chains. This
is why it is up for consensus
request.
>> so there's no other well I
think mayor is I you know.
>> the only concern I well I
see the points.
>> commissioner, I'm rich and
mcdowell it and they are way
to it. Regarding.
>> shane issues cooling issues
all the rest.
>> we went through a hurricane
and the majority of trees that
came down.
>> what black wall of trees
oak trees trees that have
lousy routes because basically
they just topple over
especially when they're
incorrectly water which is
what happens throughout the
city. So the more they get
water even though they're
supposed only in their first
year. When you trees, those
routes stay hall, look at what
we saw over the city trees
down and they were trees.
>> they were oaks and
throughout the city, I mean
everywhere I went people said
they're not really going to
make we plant trees again are
they.
>> so you know I appreciate
the need for shade and all the
rest that I just raise it a as
an issue to be discussed
because. By no means am I an
expert in this area and. You
know it's really a question of
what we wanted to I mean if
it's. You know, maybe I really
don't matter to solve this
problem, but but certainly
doing the same thing over and
over again and running the
risk of these trees going down
every time there's a major
storm which is what's going to
happen. You know just doesn't
seem intelligent to me.
>> and
>> I don't know been a real
suggestion just offering up an
alternative perspective on
this.
>> okay and I I am respond to
some of good because you know
hoping I would something but
yes, acadiana at a 150 mile an
hour winds. We did have trees
that went down. They the oak
trees on sumpter had very
canopies they offered a lot of
resistance and eventually they
succumbed that is is nature it
doesn't mean that you're going
throw the baby out with the
bathwater there's a lot of
people including myself i
still have all the original
trees that are left when my
house was built 30 years ago
and I know that they say.
>> my house I didn't have one
shingle that left my roof and
again you see tree that fell
his house, it's very dramatic
and you're going to see that
but you're also not saying how
many houses were safe because
they did have.
>> I developed lots next to
them and they they took the
brunt of of that so as far if
they're properly pruned and
send out that the wind could
pass through a little better.
And again as commissioner
mcdowell said the whole point
of street trees and had and
putting trees and development
projects is for shade is to
have places for people to
gather and to to get some
relief from the sun. And I'm
no black alex that I that is
not a common trait that's part
tree. That's a well in part
because the black all also
called something there's a
difference is a different
species that says shady lady
is not a black olive and shady
ladies are not native, but
they are florida friendly. And
they are plant they plant them
a lot as as street race.
Around we used interchange
they were all right so.
Looking for for a consensus,
yeah. I'll start with number 2
because it seems to I will ask
for consensus that palm trees.
>> specifically the mural the
royal on cuba, the royal palm
florida be removed as a street
tree.
>> sure and rich. Agree with
vice mayor.
>> yeah, I'm going to go along
with your son should go more
than yes. I mean, yes. Have
>> and I'm a yes. That removed
it. This next one we might
have a little bit conversation
additional I don't know but to
substitute up on the trees.
>> to be 3 to one for the
royal florida to be 3 to one
as opposed to what it's on as
want one. Is that only for
those particular those are the
only only ones that are and
then but bismarck palms are
huge so I left that they're
huge and they're and they're
again they're not even need a
one of the cabbage palms are
they. They are now owners are
already 3 to one okay, so it's
just these particular these 2
are what ice I stuck with but
if you want to add. It's mark
palm. I thought they gave a
little bit more she didn't
have a little bit more
distinction. Then the florida.
And cuba, royal palms. Those
are the only ones that are one
to one o k and just to clarify
canopy trees this would apply
to development sites. We know
doesn't know missus palms in
this section table called the
majority them are 3 to want to
that I requested the consensus
on are listed as one to want
so I'm requesting a consensus
change guess my question is
what when where this be years
we're talking about a 3 to one
that would be used in terms
south all.
>> all over the city we have
canopy tree requirements. For
a couple of the larger palms,
would allow them to be a one
to one substitution for a
canopy tree, however, a code
specifies that you cannot have
more than 50% of your trees
substituted was pumps with
pops so you would still get
your canopy trees this would
just be an alternative for
some of them can count towards
canopy trees as opposed to
understory trees.
>> so that so asking is that
that without it.
>> so we have multiple lists
on the list. One list is
canopy trees these poems are
not listed as candy treats and
there's another list of
understory trees. Ponds are
not listed understory trees,
there's a 3rd list that's
called palms there in this
list for pumps. And then the
next list which we've already
talked about is street treats.
I am requesting to have the
ratio from one to one 3 to
one. For these royal palm
trees. I'm so not clear
because you said it would as
it can be.
>> yet so there are 3 palm
trees that 2 types of royal
palms and the bismarck I'm ce
that instead of doing a 3 to
one ratio. As a replacement
for a canopy a tree. We
allowed to want a lot because
they're particularly large on
trees. So our palms, I know
that they're not sure so.
Commissioners request was to
for the 2 royal palms to
change that substitution ratio
from one to to 3 to one.
That's that's what this
consensus item us.
>> okay in order to qualify as
a candidate it's still more
than 50% can be correct. I
commissioner is that that one
to 3 what you're asking for
rita want. Yes. So your yes.
I'll be yes with that.
>> this is where I'm a little
stop because I I don't think
that they're going to be a
pleasing at 3 to one the size
that they're at and I don't
want to replace canopy trees.
At all either. I would just
assume make these. You know
like extras if.
>> you know if they wanted
this in their yard doesn't
count what we're asking them
to do, but it could be an
accessory try tree. I mean
I'll be a yes to go along with
the board but I'm really not
in favor of putting 3
>> on a property.
>> and I get what you're
saying but I but when you're
saying no more than 50% can be
palms that wouldn't be
physically possible to have 3
bismarck psi would.
>> I think.
>> on on a quarter acre lot
that's just not going to
happen is they are monster. So
we have both of those taken
care of that content right
thank MISS Katie. And what was
the next one.
>> all right so the next
relates to single family
residential development. Sort
of in a similar vein should
there be a minimum entry
requirement for residential
development. Right now the
code only requires shrubs the
proposed new code requires
shrubs and trees.
Commissioners request was to
not require trees as there's
been some concern about how
impact the drain field.
However. That code does have
some alternatives for accept
trees in the front ship shape
trees in the pack. So and so
forth so. Are there is some
flexibility the second one on
the side is do we want to
require residential
development in the r one
district to have a and do we
want to size for that so we
can take those. Together
separately. Those are the 2
for the side.
>> okay so number three's
about minimum tree requirement
you're saying right now we
don't have that.
>> right now we only require
shrubs and we don't have a
tree requirement for
single-family properties.
Almost looks like it was taken
out last minute. Most places,
including cape coral, which is
a very similar communities, is
MAY. Have a tree requirement
for single-family properties.
>> you know how I knew that it
was 35% the charity. Where's
I'm sorry words the page where
it's.
>> you do have I'm sorry can't
find it now.
>> it's section 4 points 3.5.
I don't know what page it's on
because I have my notes that I
submitted.
>> this you know where that is
about that trees.
>> landscaping for single into
family dwellings is on page 18
okay up the draft code that I
have it up on the screen. A
case that's where saying that
you had to have. To cap trees
for every 7500 square feet
correct. So a 10,000
square-foot lot would be about
3 trees that doesn't quite if
there. My yes. Okay so that's
what you're proposing. Correct
okay.
>> to my request yes for surf
a better that ability is not
in our drive to did that added
after draft.
>> likability section was
added based off of my notes to
your chapter for comments. To
clarify which properties
apply. So this is my working
draft. So what it is not. 100%
the same as the one that
submitted and since you
brought up my notes for for
when I submitted my questions
comments thing last week. The
thing that I received back
didn't have any comments or
answers to my questions it was
blank.
>> did they fall off some how
did I get the wrong document.
>> I'm not sure we we
definitely created comments
back.
>> I see the man we'll make
sure that you get I would
appreciate it because I didn't
I just received exactly what I
submitted to you maybe it was
sent to my fellow
commissioners for today's
discussion but usually the
comments are also included I
didn't receive anyhow so the
reason why I had requested
that we have this discussion
is because when we approved
the tree. Code we allowed the
property owner for single
family residential to
determine if they wanted to
have trees on their property
or not the.
>> overwhelming majority was
it's single family residential
there 80 by one 20 lot. This
will require I have 80 by one
20 lot. It's approximately
10,025 square feet.
>> and I would be required to
have canopy trees and
understory trees. Because it's
more than 7500 square feet.
>> so
>> I took my situation and
applied it to the pre platted
lots because the majority of
pre platted lots are more than
7500 square feet so that would
have to double this and a lot
of people especially after
hurricane ian don't want any
trees on their property
because of the damage to their
pool cages and their only
knows what else and the cost
to remove them after the
hurricane. So is why I put it
on there that we need to have
this discussion. I can still
plant a tree if I but this is
mandating that I have a
minimum of 4 canopy trees or
its equivalent. On my
property. What they found
developing a new home. You
can't make not. So I just
wanted to have conversation
with you guys because we took
it out of the cold. Requiring
trees. If they want to have
trees they get credits. And
that was it was their choice
but this is now putting it
back in that they must have.
So I really hope that we can
have a conversation about
this.
>> and this is that the
development stage correct.
Yeah correct understand okay.
2 things.
>> one the I was out last week
so emails until morning. But I
did look at that e-mail this
morning that was questions
that you that the commissioner
had that I would email that
was sent to all of the
commissioners and opened that
document. If you look at that
document. That cop there are
small yellow boxes. Embedded
in that document you have to
hover over those yellow if you
just try to print it out it's
not you're not going to see
the comments but in the
digital form. A small yellow
boxes if you hover over that
it's going to expand and
you'll see the response staff.
Loved it I read all the
responses this morning they
were in the document that was
sent off when I went print it
out.
>> I direct current all of it
so they didn't show up so
that's why I'm saying they
there were no comments the
comments are in the digital
doc, I so if you if you just
open the digital document on
your pad.
>> you'll be able to hover
over those boxes see those
comments. But yes, we're
talking the development status
would not apply to homes that
are already existing. If
you're if you're a lot is
12,000 square feet. Then you
have. 2 canopy trees required.
It doesn't round up to the
next. Number you don't another
tree wouldn't kick in until
you have another 7500 square
feet. Okay and it's very calm
and I mean almost unheard of
for a city not to have a tree
with choir meant on
single-family even with well
and septic it's very easy to
accommodate. Canopy trees and
I do recall some of the
discussions when that
requirement was taken out I
when I first started with the
city and my recollection was a
lot of the reason for it being
taken out was because of
problems with enforcement that
had happened in the past and
trying to ensure that those
trees remain I can tell you in
every jurisdiction, I've
worked in. We have not had
that issue because we we do
enforce there methods for
enforcement of that of and
ongoing enforcement of so I'm
confident we can enforce
without any any problems that
I don't. Quite understand all
of forsman issues that
happened in the past and
issues with builders taking
the trees out and moving them
around but. Every jurisdiction
fort and we've managed not to
have that. Problem and so I
think we can circumvent that.
Respond.
>> I got to floor right I'm
middle of my question yeah. Do
trees. Some certain free trees
with they qualify as.
>> they would have for the for
the required trees they would
have to be on our route tree
list do you have an interest
trees like orange are great
fried or anything like that
that grow fairly large.
>> that could be sub staying
by the people as well.
>> there are there's does
there's a citrus trees are
understory tree right, I know
that. Average high of. Average
orange trees like 15 feet or
is like the average high of a
mango tree is like 30 feet. So
it is something that we could
look into where perhaps we can
add it if they're not there
already, some fruit trees like
or avocado trees which are a
little bit larger than your
average citrus tree.
>> as an it would give them
options and it would benefit
both you're getting a tree and
b they're getting a product
off of their tree they can
boost to the neighbors say I
got the most avocados a
seasoned here take some. I
mean it's just something to
work with. I have no issues
with having a couple on the
developed properties, it.
Okay. Vice mayor. I correct
plant development communities,
whether it be well up toledo
village that's coming up any
of others they all act
requirements.
>> case. They have both
requirements for the
subdivision and requirements
for the end of lot and so I no
reason why single family
residential property should
those same requirements just
seems consistent to me. I.
>> I just wanted to.
>> thank you for the
clarification about and that
the math here so 10,000 square
feet which is typically a
quarter acre lot would just
require 2 trees. And one has
to be in the front is that
what this is saying.
>> it says at least one canopy
tree or the equivalent number
understory trees, a so this is
another place for that that
paul ratio could come into
play where if they don't have
enough for him in their front
yard canopy tree they could do
one royal palm in the front
yard has a one to one ratio or
they can do 3 small palms on a
3 to one ratio right. So
that's that works and.
>> and I just wanted to put it
out there for the public
record you can plant as as
directors that you can have
trees in the front. I just
having a drain field doesn't
mean you can't put anything.
Their selection and placement
yes, very important, but you
can.
>> I know from my own
experience and you can drive
around and see people of huge
oak trees in front.
>> I doesn't mean just because
you have septic, you can't you
can't do that. And just the
fruit avocado mango trees,
yeah, I like people having
that option but again if
you're talking about hurricane
resistant. They're not all
right there again, none of
those are native and they
failed miserably thailand.
>> but that's what people want
they're under story so other
than the mango avocado.
>> which are giant trace. Can
have a problem with that with
that orange tree falling on
your house. And I think that's
I hand. That.
>> you might you do mention
understory. Trees but you
cannot substitute understory
for all your canopy correct
right you sort of everything.
>> good is read anything about
trees on people are ok what
where their little option
added hair okay, but you took
care of everything.
>> but I I appreciate that all
commissioner mcdowell thank
you for the clarity on that
7500 square feet because I
read that multiple times and I
kept I have seen 7500 okay
7500 nom on to the next 7500.
so now I'm going to the fore
canopy trees.
>> my.
>> concern and I know the
mayor and totally opposite
pages on one. People are not
going to plant trees in their
front yard to say have a drink
field. If they have a septic
and that's what the majority
of our 80 by one 20 lott. R I
can understand if they don't a
septic system in their front.
And there a preplanned the
community 19 a conversation.
You're in a pre-planned the
community you're on tour. So
you can plant them in your
front yard but to require it
for pre pro at community of
pre platted house.
>> that that to me is
unrealistic expectation. Lot
of builders in.
>> you know.
>> how are you going to put it
in there because the builders
have always said we have to
bring in so much bill because
of the septic tank, so how are
they going to either one
preserve a tree or plea to
plant a tree on there with
joint field, so it in the
current proposal, it does not
have to be a canopy tree.
>> doesn't it says. At least
one canopy tree or the
equivalent number understory
trees and palms shall be
placed in the front yard. I
don't see anybody putting any
type of tree understory or
canopy there is in there from
there 0 reason absolutely no
physical reason why an
understory tree or palm trees
cannot be placed in the front
yard. On even on a house that
has well and septic. The
septic field does not take up
the entire the front yard area
on trees require very little
area for root you put it on
the periphery of the property
to other side of the driveway
put it up close to the house.
Countries can be planted 2 to
3 feet from the foundation of
a home without causing any
damage at all. So there's
there's no physical reason
that would interfere with a
septic system. It is obviously
a the preference of the
community but if you allow
every single planet lot to
clear their completely and not
that any trees that it will a
tree that sir which is why
most communities require this
even for properties that are
on setting. Current. Code for
tree code it says if you get
your seo and you keep your
tree for year after year I can
remove that tree.
>> that is being proposed to
change as well.
>> we're having properties be
clear cut we hearing that and
over from the community.
>> that we don't want clear
cutting and we were hopeful
that that treat code that we
instituted would help solve
that with the conservation
kind of
>> and of course it has yet no
it is should hasn't and and
people used hurricane as a as
a fig excuse to remove all the
trees on their property.
>> but what we're going to
have our entire neighborhoods
that have no trees if we
continue down that path. So
that's why we are proposing
after seeing the effects and
the impacts of that tree
ordinance that's why we are
proposing some changes
because. You know unintended
consequences are the. That's
where we we there were
unintended consequences from
that we're going to see those
on a grand scale. We don't.
Make some reversing decisions.
And that mitigation that's one
component of tree.
>> ordinance because before
they clear cutting and we
weren't getting anything the
change 36 inches in diameter
which absurd. And that's
what's allowing us to have
such a wonderful tree fund
that were actually. Trying to
decide how to use that money.
Yes palms. I know if somebody
had to not harm palms in their
front yard. I mean they didn't
seem to have a problem because
that they have an extensive
system as well.
>> and it.
>> director right thank you
for bringing that up that you
can still have the drain field
doesn't take up your entire
front yard and and people do
plant palms in their front
yards with snow. No problem so
that is an option here
understory and um's I think
again you have you have
addressed every concern and
there is really no reason why
people can son trees around
around their house. So you're
looking for a consensus on
that first item. That was
number 3. We want to should
there be a minimum farm and
the residential development.
Commissioner emerge. Tell you
what staff recommended. I mean
yes well, and yes, I'm a yes.
Your your direction and the
second one is about.
>> raj for require a garage.
For residential development.
>> so one of the changes and
the proposed is that all
properties are our one would
have to have an attacker. They
would have to have a garage
that was at minimum size. Sort
of as a way of maintaining the
character existing character
of our want districts. Are our
the district are existing
single-family sticks. So. Our
thought process there was that
if are one requires garage and
it will help maintain sort of
similar characteristics for
the development. There's been
some discussion about whether
or not we should require and
then. As opposed like a
carport parking pad or
something along those lines.
And if we do require garage.
How big should encourage and
and the code we specified it
would be I think 10 by 20
which is a single-car so it's
not overly burdensome.
>> all interesting. Vice
mayor.
>> this will be for just
clarification soupy for our
one. Right. I am an advocate
of I just you know I I know
many people who have moved
into this area moved planned
developments like well, im
park chose to leave that kind
environment for single-family
home looked all over port town
some beautiful homes. But were
turned off by general look of
a neighborhood in the street
GOD knows what will over the
sidewalks the streets to
swales the side of houses and
decided to go elsewhere
because it just looked awful
and so I'm a big advocate
garages. Think that's also of
the problems but it's a. If I
>> that was part of the
consideration here is that.
Times and other parts of the
country you have a basement
that you're able to keep stuff
all of your stuff in and in
florida. Obviously we cannot
have basements and so a lot of
people use their so then if
you don't require the garage
instead do a car part or
something along those lines.
Oftentimes you have storage of
that those things under the
carport are in the side yard
or. Somewhere else. So this
would at least for the r one
districts require the and
there are 2 district we had
some mike's ability where it
because we're allowing tiny
homes and those types of
things are smaller dwelling
units in our 2 district. We
would allow like a carport or
something but they would have
to have some type of enclosed
storage on the property as
well so that's how we worded
it to allow some flexibility.
We design and districts.
>> commissioner I'm and again
this is for new construction
and just yeah I'm I'm in
agreement with the having a
garage or and just think what
my dimensions or single cars
10 by 20.
>> and I think that should be
the minimum.
>> commissioner 1000 ship
question no I didn't have a
question I was advocating not
to have a large because it to
the cost of the house not
everybody wants grant and I
think state statute also does
not allow design. For the city
to hinder design of of
single-family home.
>> and you know, I'm not I'm
not up on the state statute on
that but I do believe that
this is something that can
help cut down on the cost we
have code enforcement.
>> that make sure that things
are not full debris in crop.
You know laying around that's.
Don't know what the exact
terminology is it's a single
family home that somebody is
building and I'm not talking
about in the preplanning
communities, but this is more
of a property rights I should
not be required to build one.
I can put it in a car or or a
pat to help keep my cost
building a home down we're
looking for affordability here
and I am against happened this
in our coating requirement,
totally different when you're
talking about a preplanned the
community like in one parker
kept her now. This is also
it's and with preplanned the
community.
>> I can speak to the statute.
It prohibits the city
regulating the architectural
static. Elements of
single-family property it does
not prohibit city or county
from acquiring a good watch.
That's a structural and
functional element that under
the purview 2 cities and
counties that clarity you're
welcome and I'm I'm not
familiar with any other
jurisdiction in the state
that. Does not require a
garage for single-family home.
Something we can look at that
I it would. Very surprising.
most do require a garage.
Anything else I appreciate you
brought this phone bank. I did
yeah.
>> because I'm thinking of
years ago we had a builder all
state that that. I don't know
if they had it was an option,
but some people they put the
french doors garage door do we
require that there be a garage
doors or option that if
people. No they're just going
for storage which. Most people
that's why we have 6 vehicles
that can go on a driveway.
That they can put doors on
instead of garage door.
>> we did not specify. What
type of door the garage have
to have so I don't know that
there would be anything
prohibiting. Property owner
from using storage space
there. It prohibit a property
owner from converting it to
living space. They want let's
say you have a 2 car garage
and you want to convert a
portion of that to living
space you would be able to do
so as long as the remaining at
the size requirement. For the
garage space for the we did
not get into the weeds as to
what type of garage that
should have.
>> but right now it has to be
a garage door code or I don't
know that our current.
>> specifies that and the new
code also does not specify so
I don't see any reason why
they wouldn't be able to do
french doors on the
>> they
>> are why oregon's on
services assistant director,
the current draft uldc.
Includes some line which
speaking to the door requires
operable door capable of
allowing allowing vehicular
now that is very dissimilar
from other communities code
requirements, which really get
into the details about
operable overhead so if a
garage could be designed.
>> 2.
>> some other. The work sure
that would still allow vehicle
access. Then it could be
incorporated current class.
>> obviously the coach changed
the years because there's
houses out there that at. You
know those french doors
commission without them. So
the current draft as they
stated has to have a operable
garage door to allow make
vehicle to go in. But the part
that also makes me have pause
is no garage shall be used as
living quarters on last
another garage is constructed
prior to that conversion.
These days there are so with
the cost of housing there are
so many people that are trying
convert their garage into
additional living space.
>> and there are many that are
trying to do it legally.
Because they want to have a
safe place with the proper
ingress and egress is and all
the air conditioning and all
the proper requirements, but
give them additional space
space is a garage how many
people use their and k. And
and that is considered living
space. And. I just. I go back
to enforcement. You know how
do you have say no you can't
have an space inside of a
garage because kind of like a
family or family room which is
living space in a garage. And
to require a garage be
additionally constructed when
people want to comfort their
for additional living space.
Just seems to me as very
burdensome property owners. I
can't agree to this because
it's my and if I want to
legally convert my garage,
keeping a board that chopper
double okay and why shouldn't
I be able to. So I'm not in
favor of this change.
>> I would like to add or
clarify something there when I
state living space I'm talking
about living space from the
florida building perspective.
So for the building there is a
separation requirement, 3rd
different construction
requirements for living spaces
for garages and garages. I
mean there's a reason that
it's built the way that it is
is vented the way that it to
help ensure life safety issues
so when we're talking about
living space like converting
your garage to living space.
I'm talking about creating
something that is like a
dwelling unit or an extra
bedroom that is compliant with
the florida building code, not
necessarily you know tv and
couch in the garage that you
just happen to just keep the
tv the couch in there, I'm
talking about actual
conversion into. Another
bedroom, another dwelling
unit, another you know
someplace review actively live
because. Building code
requires different separation
if there's carbon monoxide
issues, there's all sorts of
other life safety issues.
>> that's what I mean by
living space. In this
instance.
>> okay.
>> but just to clarify. Right
now we don't require a or is
that just part of the code and
talking about changing it. As
the city want to require a
garage.
>> so I don't think that right
now we require
>> commissioner emerge.
>> you're talking about living
spaces and the garage and the
little guys are recessed by
about 4 inches and that's for
in case anything happens
inside the house for water or
anything to get out of the
house. And like you said, most
garages are not under air just
like most lynn eyes are not
under air. So if you choose
use it as living space. You're
either going to be burdened
with me either have a portable
ac unit or anything out there
so. Yeah it is. Good for
storage and everything like
that, but you know where
people choose to live. Years
ago I slept in a garage with
no air and stuff because that
was the only place that was
available for me. But I was
trying to nickels together to
make 7 extra but. In the in my
opinion it's the aesthetics of
the neighborhood to keep
everything the same we have
all port which is often the
biscayne areas and and you
have called carports you know
you don't have the garages.
Those were the houses built in
50's and 60's and as you
progress we've gone up just a
little bit. Into the garage
area. So that's why I do
support the garage new
construction. And you know it
is part of the house, I mean
people can use that extra
space out there choose to do
it. If you have a garage door
a nobody see what's going on
behind that dam door. That's
it that's all I got there on
cover of this. Vice mayor.
Yeah get goes back to.
>> solana there virtually no
municipality step you know I
know that.
Requirement mean.
>> it.
>> you only need to drive
around the city to see how
looks on many many streets
where there are not or even
where there people just
insistent leaving their after
household stuff out along the
side of the and.
>> if your neighbor. You know
it affects you so I get it,
I'm a property rights too but
at the same time we all in
this part of the community
we're not out in the wild west
we're not sitting on a 100
acres where nobody sees we
live next each other there's
some common decency and
courtesy that goes along with
having a property that's
maintained kept out having a
is going to lend itself to
that and it's not going to be
a cure all. And it brings with
it some enforcement issues.
You know for a new bills I
agree and you I don't want
tell everybody looked here for
2030 years you got know, but
any new I see no reason why it
shouldn't include a garage
just. Seems like it it makes
our city that much more
appealing that much more
attractive and like I say I
many people do not buy
single-family homes in this
community because of the fact
that their neighborhood that
they look at and there are
some make homes. But you look
around the neighbors and it's
such a they just shot goal
moved some of the community
and that's our think it really
is that's a so.
>> thank you commissioner
mcdowell them and it's all
about choices if somebody
doesn't want to buy a house
next to somebody that has a
carport that's their choice.
But at the same time we're
trying to make housing
affordable and by not allowing
conversion of a garage into a
living space done legally that
to me is just wrong. And so I
know I'm in the minority and
I'm not going to change
anybody else's mind just like
nobody's going to change mind
but it's all about choices and
trying to things affordable
and that's what my goal thank
you for bringing
>> word I do agree with said
the vice mayor is talking
about people who have store
everything they own on the
side of their house ice,
especially notices and the
older developments where they
don't have a garage carport
or. Places like holiday park.
And then we just. Coming to an
enforcement you know if we're
going to ok we'll put a code
in place that you can do that
well then it just becomes
another. Another problem we do
share property lines. Yes,
it's our property. But share
property lines with her
neighbor and that's going to
affect. Our life former
commissioner luke one said it
was a choice of people to live
in a municipality which is
going generally have higher
standards than if you live in
unincorporated parts of the
county. Just we do think of of
each other and how what we do
yeah, I was not be in favor of
free. I'm taking us away. So
you want I think they you it.
>> I'm going to get a but
>> deals flexible for
flexibility with buffer design
when a fence or a wall is
included for says.
Not including also.
>> our tight d and type ii
buffers both had
for alternative where. If you
included offense and this is
just a place to 4 foot fence.
You could have a smaller. For
it would reduce so take wood
reduced from 15 feet to 10
feet if you included some type
of barrier. So a fence or wall
and then that would be reduced
from 10 feet to 5 feet if you
include the law. These are our
least intense. First of these
are small as buffers and again
it just provides some there
was direction too. Not have a
lot of that flexibility or not
reduce the size if they
decided to include the fence
intent with the buffer is to
help. Reduce the visual impact
of potential in compatibility
ease. Staff believes that with
the your help mitigating that
more than just you know that
extra 5 feet of the buffer if
you were to do action
landscaping you doing at the
same. So we would recommend
keeping the flexibility. So
the question for a consensus
is should the city allow
flexibility design for reduce
spot for one offenses included
and the buffer area.
>> ok and kim ju just
reference where that is again
and there. And here the page.
>> this
>> should be about page 22. I
commissioner emrich.
>> on 2 scenarios. You're
going from 15 down to 10 or 10
down the 5 craft can you show
or tell
>> what type areas these would
be and are they just single
residential are they. You know
from the 10 down the is that
like a mobile I mean.
>> so we have. This is our
matrix so we're talking about
all of ease. Andy is so it
would be like a single-family
home next to property.
>> or.
>> our 2 property next to
arwen properties so these are
the.
>> these are the areas where
you basically have compatible
uses maybe one is slightly
more intense than the other so
we're requiring some type of
but it's a pretty minimal
buffer just to sort of a
systemically separate provide
some visual separation there.
>> yeah I can understand that
your role you're only talking
four-foot fence. So it's not
really a 6 foot. Keeping your
eyes out of the property thing
but. I I struggle with going
from 10 down to 5. I think you
know maybe minimum should be
at least 10 all the way across
the board. I can see going 10
down 5 I can 15 going down the
but I can see that I'm going
down the fire. I think that's
just cut that way too close. I
so
>> alright, vice mayor yeah I
commissioner with regard to
but I also want to make clear.
When it comes to other I have
no problem if we're talking
compatible properties or one
twos threes but when we get
into areas where with all that
development we're doing. Yeah,
I want to make sure that the
city has the ability to I'm
very concerned about areas
where we're building.
Commercial or industrial in
closer proximity residential
and I want to make sure that.
You know if at all possible
what we're keeping the natural
trees said are there if at all
possible to totally blocked
for some of those people saw
what might be commercial or
industrial property and to
make sure that there's rich
enough but for us and fencing
standards and everything else
to make darned sure that you
know we're doing much to
protect. A welding. Property
owners.
>> so there are 2 that sort of
go to that south. On the
buffer matrix which. Tried to
make a little bit bigger city
you can see a little bit are
usually so basically are
useless go from we just
intense to most the top of the
column to the bottom and then
from the front of the road to
the back. And so you can see
that lake when you have a new.
You have activity center next
to enact property. Required
buffers and a buffer a buffer.
Is a 50 foot buffer with
canopy trees for understory
trees, the continuous at a
minimum wall of 6 feet and you
have to have a 5 so you're
looking. 13 feet of elevation
between those uses that. That
new activity center's
developer has to put in to be
able offer from the
potentially single-family home
that's next door. We
definitely have increased
buffer sizes heights.
Education and a b and c
buffers really. The second
thing is that.
>> over at the height and
sitting in this matrix that's
scene minimum berm. Which for
the first 2. Requires a 5 so
they have to create
essentially a 5 foot mountain
that for will sit on.
>> and then you have
additional.
>> 6 feet because the top of.
>> you have put the ball. So
then you have a six-foot wall
on top of that.
>> the tie, buffer you have a
3 and then you have a six-foot
wall but you also have. And
the you have a canopy trees
per 100 linear feet the type b
you have 5 can 100 linear
feet.
>> most canopy trees have the
spread of 30 so I mean you're
talking about a pretty dense.
>> coverage in those. Areas,
no minimums on high though
with those kind of patriots 1,
2, so the materials.
>> so we have. Material
standards at planting they
have to be a minimum 8 feet I
believe 4 inches wide. So
that's your minimum when you
plant it, most canopy trees
are going to be anywhere from
25 to 50 feet in height. So i
mean. With a type a buffer
you're looking at between
>> the wall.
>> the canopy tree you're
looking at probably 80 feet
of.
>> dense vegetation and wall
do it to make sure that you
can't see whatever's going on
in the property next door.
>> is a slightly steps down
version but again you're
looking at so I probably 52 60
feet worth of coverage. And
then on top of these
requirements and I. I think we
put them in chapter.
>> and our.
>> forget the name check but
anyways in areas of transition
that's what we call it. Where
we have new zoning districts
that are next to existing
potentially nexus existing
single family.
>> we required that any
buffers that was required
there.
>> has to be increased by 10
feet to be able to help
mitigate the existing use to
the news so we did add that
into those requirements. So
there are quite a safeguards
to make sure that the buffers
are going to be adequate for
whatever type of development
comes be q. Commissioner
mcdowell.
>> and so while we were
talking about fence. I'm glad
that it has evolved into the
buffering section because you
know.
>> if you live in our won
which is for all intents and
purposes a preplanned the
community and something is
going to go up in a mixed use.
That's right next to you
buffering is a d which is
like. Not quite bear base.
It's more. Aesthetic it's it's
not offering is like. Is
buffering is the most
intensive type offering
possible. Dea and the ins. So
much and I was talking about
our one to and max one.
>> our want to annex one would
be like a single-family home
potentially 2 town houses.
>> small strips enter its.
>> very low.
>> that low intensity it's not
especially use it as a side.
There's a lot of. Intrusive
minister mx one too.
>> and and I don't like that
being a deep. It needs to be a
little bit more protected
because of the sights and
sounds you're not just
protecting the esthetic lee
you're also the sounds of
things and that really doesn't
happen. I don't see where it
is addressed in offering
matrix from mx one existing
single family home. To an end
next one with the restaurant.
It's in the same zoning
because it's being changed the
house is
>> where is that in this
section. So it's in a
different section.
>> as part of our previous
conversations on transitional
design elements. We have a
whole section in chapter 3
that that.
>> speaks to all the
requirements.
>> one of them.
>> is that buffer shall be
enhanced in the areas that are
transitioning where a
single-family home is adjacent
to a permissible primer used
for the au sable that is not
single family in these areas
the required buffer should be
increased to the next level.
So I misspoke it wasn't 10
feet it's to the next level
up. So for example if the
required buffer is in each for
that ad type buffer then be
required. So essentially. You
up and then it says in
instances where in a type
required an additional 10 feet
will be added to the required
buffers eyes because buffer is
already.
>> sizable so we're just
adding a little bit of extra
to
>> mitigate any potential in
compatibility and this must
be. Someone knew I knew that
we had talked about in zoning
district house versus the new
development. I just I was
expecting to see it here so
forgive me for that I'm glad
that you do have a cover they
can't wait to see what the
final outcome of that draft
looks like. But as far as the
fence part. It's only a foot
fence in some regards and and
to my fellow commissioners
reducing it, 5 feet from 10 to
5 that's like nothing. So I
would be more inclined to
remove though. Reduction in
that buffering area for the d
buffers. Consensus.
>> making consensus now for
that long we have it for the
fences yeah because dna only
if if I remember correctly the
minimum height is 4 feet and
that does not. And it doesn't
have to be opaque does it.
>> it does have pick I'm sorry
it does have to be does it say
it has to be opaque. Decker
defenses doesn't really say
opaque. Take buffer.
>> include.
>> decker defense. Says does
it say it has too.
>> to double check and wear.
Where that language is but I'm
fairly certain that it that it
has to be fake.
>> his past. Okay and then are
we requiring offense. Or is it
a MAY.
>> if you have.
>> don't have a fence. Then
you have to have the larger
buffer that's how that works
if you have a fence, then you
can have the smaller for size
so for d. If you don't want to
include offense. You have a 15
foot buffer. You do include a
fast and you have a 10 foot
buffer. Theoretically you
could include the sense of the
15 foot buffer, if you wanted
to. But it's it would only be
required and smaller sides of
way. Yeah that.
>> mayor if we could get a
consensus that the city.
>> should not. Reduce the
buffer when 2 I keep it a
tent. We're 15 for 15. So the
city should not reduce the
buffer when offenses included
so they'll have to come up
with the correct language
based on our consensus, okay,
so we'll be keeping it at the
15 and the time.
>> much.
>> do that. But I was good
with the we do that on the 15
foot buffer down to 10 foot
buffer, but the other one one
and then not walk 5, 5, was
too short. I'm good with the
consensus. Look at with that.
Station.
>> just double your page city
is just make sure 4 feet is
>> so that the last consensus
item is in regards to box.
>> part 2 chapter staff
reduced setback requirement
for docs multi-family
properties from 20 feet to 15
feet. So this is set back from
outside. Line. It so that the
reduction it's just to make it
a little bit are usable user
friendly have more half. More
dock. Access or multifamily
properties. So the consensus
item should we require
setbacks for docs we could do
0 set back which would allow
for an our connectivity
between sites or we can do
reduce setback at 15 feet or
the current gold standard is
20 feet. So should we require
act how large should that
setback be if any.
>> was this in the cold again
ma'am.
>> I like it's in the marine
improvements, it was in part
but I think point which so. It
is page 41.
Number 6 all talk
for fear structures must be
set back a minimum of 15 feet
from the nearest property
line.
>> yeah, that was changed
after we had the discussion on
part is changed between part
one and part 2. Remember
correctly whenever its right
about that.
>> improvement section that
was brought forward in the
initial part one discussion.
>> needed some tweaks and
staff knew that going into the
workshop.
>> and that's why I was like I
didn't ask for consensus on
this but that's because you
guys changed it. And I asked
change so. Why was a change 25
2.15.
>> I believe the reason was
just allow for more space.
Staff would support. 0 set
back if we want to go that
direction. Again this is just
from the side property lines.
>> for commercial or
multifamily.
>> if I MAY mayor goodman. The
dax would be going. Where give
me give me some examples of
bodies of water where these
docks would go because if
there next if they're in a
proposed zoning change area.
Next to single family
residential or r to
residential even maybe even
multifamily residential, those
docks are getting closer to
those property where would
where would something like
that to place.
>> potentially a lot like the
myakka you're one of there's
some areas that we're in
corporating and to get a whole
lot of fun faces on the myakka
hatchee critique why would we
allow docks on the myakka head
she we there.
>> all right well, I
potentially exposed rocks
could be used for something
other you could do outdoor
seating I
>> I don't know a lot about
taking correct the public
interest. You got past MISS
Katie eye-catching creek. On
the title side of our
structures.
>> there's areas there. But I
also you have the coco plum
which has commercial one side
residential another. There's
some england they're
commercial. And residential
probably family as well.
>> okay so water a body of
water. Could like a lake and
I'm thinking of a lake that
doesn't happen development,
you're overnight. We do blade
and price.
>> there's a big beautiful
like back there. There's also
a link work shire that have
like docks on it if it was to
get developed.
>> it could.
>> that's all private though.
>> yeah I understand that
those are private that's what
we also have to think about
you know as private and public
in.
>> think those are both.
Parcel. Water body. Person
doesn't cure sep 2 separate
parcels.
>> I think. I'm not seeing a
huge change here but at the
same time the 25 foot staff
initially requested was 25 so
maybe we should just keep it
25 feet. It can always ask for
a waiver.
>> a lorry barnes system
director development services.
Existing code has a 25 foot
setback and when when I look
at I can tell you I could not
ascertain. That 25 foot
setback for a dock on
multifamily was incorporated
the code to begin with. And
many cases exceeds the
building setback requirement
on a multifamily property. As
katy said we would even
support going 0 because when
you think about impacts of
residential on the adjacent
property owner. What what what
are the impacts what are we
trying to. What negative
impact or potential negative
impact are we attempting to
medicaid and if incorporated
to 0 back there could be
connectivity between that
stocks, especially public
access is permanent. Providing
a walkable area. Coke bottle
lake for example it could be
subdivided in the future of
the property along the bank
could be subdivided the future
and when you think about a
mixed use component developed
adjacent to a multifamily
property and then cannot thing
that waterfront access way
from that adjacent property.
What if we created we've
created a disconnected site
along the waterfront. So when
we propose the 15.
>> the thought process was why
are we restricting the size of
docks on multifamily and let's
you know, let's let's reduce
that a little bit to a large
allow a larger. Structure.
>> but further consideration
conversations with katie I
completely agree that.
>> you 0 stop MAY just very
well be appropriate to allow
for that connectivity.
>> commissioner yeah just
double checking because there
is some waterfront coco plum
and hillsborough that. I'm
trying to see if it's
multi-family that's next to.
Residential. I think as you're
suggesting the 15 foot to go
from 25 to 0. I don't think I
could be amenable to that but
the 15 yes, and if a developer
comes in wants to change it
you can ask for weight. To go
down to the 0 and if the
commission at that time says
yeah. You know we they can
always come in and ask for a
waiver I just was asking why
what was the change purpose.
From 25 to 15. That.
>> I just question about the
when you're talking about even
a 0 chris that is from the
property line that would be on
the side. Correct.
>> so if we have a 0 foot
setback it would allow
adjacent properties to connect
the dot docks together
essentially so that you have a
continuous waterfront carry a
right.
>> much like that picture you
had there. But I was. They had
a picture up there now and
missed it and think
commissioner mcdowell wear
that we have just people that
water but it restaurant out
there, but. Okay so this
picture that shows. 0.
>> setback is that.
>> which is say if each one of
those buildings is somebody
else's property is that what
you're saying yes, believe uk
okay.
>> I looking for.
>> consensus to to propose
something get a about a
consensus to change it to keep
it at the staff recommendation
of 15 feet. Much.
>> I would 0% setback. I can
deal with that. An that many
>> yeah and I would go for the
0 as well the whole idea if
it's to utilize the waterfront
utilites the water that. Well
little we have of it here. So
I prefer 0. Commissioner
mcdowell.
>> my consensus was for edge
to it in the for multifamily
got so this picture does need
that what we're talking about.
picture is this pictures
commercial when we're talking
about is one multi-family to
another multifamily creating
connectivity.
>> maybe they don't want
people coming I am not favor
of a 0 set back and there
there's a reason you suggested
the 15 stick with that.
>> ok pictures now multi she
yes.
>> so clear that have with for
that here clear that
>> you get
>> that is my last consensus
item so for the next
>> basically hour.
>> chapter.
>> 5 which assigns is mostly
time as we had planned on
having it with chapter 4 so
that should be coming and then
we have a natural resources,
environmental resources
chapter that will be the last
one. So we're sort grounding
all at this point will do
probably workshops will do
workshops for chapter 5
chapter 6 and then we'll bring
it back with our and it's
04:00am. Just exciting.
Questions comments concerns
commissioner goodell is still
on their yeah yeah so based on
what you said are we going to
be talking about chapter 5
chapter 6 in the next
workshop.
>> right breaking them up they
will be broken up it will be
it will have a discussion on
chapter 5 and then we'll have
a discussion on chapter 5 will
be like JANUARY and 6 will be
like FEBRUARY yes tentatively
s.
>> and so since our workshop
in JANUARY is right after the
holidays and we're supposed to
get these 2 weeks beforehand
and that we have holidays in
between that you said that the
sign code is already pretty
much done.
>> maybe we can get it.
>> sooner than that 2 weeks so
that way then we have a little
extra time the holidays to
review that's possible please
we can do our best to get it
to you or.
>> I don't know. We haven't
discussed. Official timing yet
as to how we want to do it,
but that sort of general doing
well.
>> hopefully sooner rather
than later because I'm sure
you don't want to be answering
my questions during the
holidays. I'm the only other
question that I have is you
were talking about a new co
that's going through public
works something engineering.
Designing yeah, engineering
design manual. How does that
get approved, I mean is that
if it's being referenced in
this cold wouldn't that design
manuel have to then also be
approved by the commission
since it's being referenced in
this co.
>> so it's created separately
and reference adopted by
ordinance I resolution. So
that they can then change it
as the standards change.
>> all right so when are we
going to see that because if
this uldc takes effect and you
still working on this
engineering. And it's being
reference but you guys have
been headed to prove jeff
what's that look like.
>> commissioner mcdowell were
hoping to planes at the same
time. If in the event the
engineering design standard
manuals it's delayed then we
will re incorporate those
technical standards into the
uldc to get it adopted without
delaying any further the uldc
and then make appropriate
amendments to remove those
technical standards down the
road that is not our the
engineering division assures
us they are working very hard
with their consultants. They
do have a draft prepared. And
it it completed and this
friend right along with the
uldc.
>> what why do we go to
engineering design manual to
begin with when everything was
pretty much already in the
uldc.
>> many cities separate the
engineering the technical
standards from the unified
land development code because
the members members of the
general public that that
information and very technical
and it's not information that
most individuals need to delve
into per se it's something
that our engineers are looking
for the developers engineers.
So so that's one reason is to.
>> substantial
>> technical jargon and the
uldc and make it a more
user-friendly document for the
majority of people. The second
reason is by incorporating it.
I reference whether them as
part of the unified land
development it's the
engineering department needs
to change a technical
standard. That you know based
on changes in materials or
lessons learned they're able
to make that change with one
public hearing by resolution
rather than ordinance which
would be required of all those
standards one for PRESIDENT
The uldc.
>> public input. Thank you.
Okay. So chapters, 5, will be
coming back. For us next year
too.
>> do we have any public
comment. Jasmine bowman.
>> development sites
preserving implanting are not
the same plant in young trees
is nice, but young trees do
not have the roots structures
to mature trees. Sure resource
center urban flooding,
preventing erosion oil there
serving at least mature trees
and development sites should
be a requirement every day I
see a lot that I see lots that
are completely clear but every
living and then too much
houses crammed onto 2 and a
lot. How is this being allowed
we're fortunate to still have
trees in north port preserving
some of them should be
prioritized about every
building every lot. And in
person we have carolyn rice.
>> came to speak on one item
and I have several now I've
heard some of the discussions.
I'm going back to the palm.
>> issue.
>> some of the things that
came to my mind is that most
of the palms except for the
sabal palm which is also the
cap which I'm sorry have which
is a state most of those palms
are not native to this area.
And having had palms on my
property having planted them.
They have not survive some of
that frost and freeze is that
at.
The other thing is that palms
have a I football root system
which is extensive root
system. Those are very prone
to blowing over in a
hurricane. Because it's not an
extensive branching out
system. So they're just as
likely as oak tree to be blown
over. The oxygen that's going
to be generated by a canopy
tree as opposed to a palm
tree, it's not the same.
Nowhere near the same. Because
you don't have a 40 foot.
Canopy growth regular tree as
opposed to a 20 foot for a
tree. It's a liability. The
falling palm fronds. If you
look at the royal palms, their
palm fronds if they come down
to hit somebody that's a huge
liability right there. As a
candidate the tree that's
losing leagues or a court.
That liability is not there.
That to the suffering. I'm
going to go back to the 3.20
project which is the one
that's closest to my heart for
obvious reasons.
The. Buffering. As proposed
which I'm not sure understood
all of it with the fencing
etcetera but. Putting in a
foot trees. Is in no way going
to view from a house to a
industrial building. It will
take years before thao's trees
are going to block the view.
Have a 40 foot canopy. Adding
a 10 foot to an easement. It's
only going to create more of a
flooding problem. When you
ways raise up those that
water's got to go someplace.
We don't have a sewer system
out there. So any that are
created for the buffering
zones, I've got a force that
water out to the street area
because it's going to be
higher than the elevation of
street.
>> thank you comments.
>> okay so that poses out that
item, looking for what what
you want to do you want tackle
the next one you want break.
And come back tackle the next
one or what. Minutes back. We
okay with that.
>> and that we then we can
wrap it up and then what we
want it will and won't be
somebody has use the restroom.
>> right okay, so 10 minutes
all right so we'll come back
1237.
>> yes should have your better
you it just
it
>> I'm stacey low emergency
management coordinator for the
city of north port and I'm
going to tell you the
difference between flood zones
and evacuation zones are in
sarasota county. We call them
evacuation levels. So flood
zones are generated by fema
and they're used to determine
the likelihood that you'll
flood and they're used to
determine if you need flood
insurance if you have a
mortgage on your home. Now the
evacuation zones are based on
storm surge data that comes
from the national hurricane
center. And they use
topography as well as
hurricane vulnerability for
storm surge for the area and
we use those to determine who
needs to evacuate during a
storm so it's important to
understand that there is a
difference if you're
interested in finding out what
evacuation zone you are and
which we highly recommend you
do. You can use your search
engine of choice. And type
sarasota county know your
level and that will take you
to the sarasota county
government website.
>> water nurse. Well that's
kind of the my
>> your house is not flooding.
Within us after storm event.
>> water should be in that
swell to 72 hours after the
storm.
That allows the filter to get
the stuff came room and the
road out of the water so that
when reaches the habitat it no
longer has those contaminants
and also provides an
opportunity to slow down
waters so that the water
doesn't go so fast that their
roads.
>> roadways any other
infrastructure, so when you
see water it's only you know
up to 72 hours since the last
rain that is letting is doing
its job.
>> mine in the van pull it
from product facility manager
with the city of north port
and today we're going to be
talking with you guys about
our free swim evaluation. It's
important that we do need from
a valuation so kids
registering for swim programs
they get placed in the right
class what we're looking at
doing something you ation is
every swim level has what's
called exit skill assessments.
So what we do is we have your
child get in the water and
will go through a series of
different movements can eagle
into the water I can you show
us your phone call can you
show us back shows elementary
back different strokes within
and what we're doing is we're
trying to where your child
test to before it becomes a
challenge for at that point
once we assess that that will
let you know and you can go
ahead and sign your child up
for that appropriate level
there. It's important that we
have these so that way when
we're teaching a level one we
don't have kids that should
potentially a level 2 and a
level one class because
they're not learning the
appropriate skills that they
needed that point in time
right now when we're in full
summer we have some people
come between 8.10 deduce from
evaluation just as you can
hear the water splashing in
the background slide.
Everything like that, but any
day of the that open you can
come in at any point in time
enough for evaluations we
always have a certified so
much doctor on site that have
your child take a swim
assessment.
>> stacey la salle and the
emergency management
coordinator for the city
of north port and I'm going to
be talking about having an
evacuation plan it's a point
have an evacuation plan ahead
of time and it's very
important to write it down
because that way you have it
somewhere present everybody in
your family can see it and
keep it fresh in their minds
and you also share it with
people in your family or your
neighbors so that they know
what your plans are ahead of
time and how to get a hold of
your way to look for you after
a disaster for your evacuation
you should have multiple
routes to get to location.
You're planning to go to just
because traffic was traffic on
75 might be gridlocked there
could be some very good back
roads to get to where you're
going that could get you there
more quickly without stuck in
traffic when you're making
evacuation plan. We usually
tell you 4 different things
you should stay home if you
are not in his own that's
being evacuated and if your
home is built to withstand the
forecasted storm if you can
stay home. And you evacuate
your next option should be to
go to a friend or family home
that is outside of the
evacuation area and it is
structurally sound to us and
the storm option would be go
to a hotel. They're much more
comfortable than I've
accusation. Center's 4th
option would be to go to one
of our evacuation center
sarasota county has fallen
back away shuns center's.
Those can be found on their
website.
>> at the city of north port
we are here to
>> serve you. And there are
many ways to connect with us.
You will always find friendly
faces when you come to city
hall. You first walk in there
we'll see our customer care
center. The care center helps
customers to
call into the city to get
answers they need in a timely
fashion.
>> our care center has helped
more than 10,000 customers
last month alone. Next to the
call center.
You'll find a self-service
kiosk for code enforcement and
building divisions. Using the
qr code or by visiting
our website you can schedule
your appointments with ease.
>> have you checked out our
website from employment
opportunities to building
codes you can find just about
anything using the search bar.
Finally you can download the
north report app and
submit non-emergency issues to
city hall in less than a
minute. The app is help
correct more than 12,000
issues across the city. No
matter the method you choose
the city is here for you and
together we will build
stronger community.
>> why do we flood. During
significant rain events port
nearly always floods in
certain areas of the city.
This is thanks to the locally
named myakka hatchee creek
also known as the big slew
watershed.
>> the 195 square mile
drainage area flows through
desoto manatee and sarasota
counties then through our city
to exit at charlotte harbor.
As the city of north port is
located at the low end of the
big slew watershed drainage
system. The city's current
flooding and water quality
conditions are attributed not
only to the city's growth. But
also to upstream runoff in the
desoto manatee and sarasota
county portions of the big
slow. During significant rain
events ponding can also occur
ponding occurs and low-lying
areas that are characterized
by poorly drained or super
saturated soils with
back-to-back rainfall events
the ground is totally
saturated which increases the
runoff during a storm. The
city works hard to maintain
its stormwater conveyance
system which is comprised of
roadside swales draining into
79 miles of named waterways.
>> and 132 miles of retention
ditches that interconnect with
each other and with the myakka
hatchee creek. There are 64
water control structures of
which 23 are gated water
control structures 5 are gated
drop structures, 28 are fixed.
We're structures and 8 are
dropped structures. The
control elevations of these
structures are designed so
that water is retained in the
waterways and a step-down
elevation system
configuration.
>> this means the water levels
in the waterway segments
between structures
progressively decreases in
elevation from north to south
and from east to west. This
system configuration allows
both retention of storm water
runoff for water quality
treatment and storage for
potable water use in
preparation for a storm, the
gates are opened as needed to
convey flood waters.
>> the city has an ongoing
program to inspect and replace
old corroded structures since
2006 13 of the high priorities
structures have been replaced
or rehabilitated the city also
has a program to clear the
ditches of sediment deposits
that have accumulated over and
clear fallen chasing and then
my our back.
>> I after the last you know a
you can convey escape to thank
her her presentation and also
feel phone calls from.
Residents and they have
nothing but good things to say
about when they deal with and
it always makes them feel at
ease because she is so
knowledgeable and just the way
she comes across is very
positive so I just wanted to
if you can share that with
her.
>> started out to mention
>> we're moving to item c.
Discussion and possible
direction regarding suggested
agenda items for the 2020 for
a convocation of governments
based on the inter local
agreement school facility
planning. City manager this is
your item.
>> it is not a mere up first
of all apologize like this it
is item last year in board
review topics NOVEMBER 22nd.
This 8 of the publication is
still coming in JANUARY but we
missed to the station for the
so we reached out to them and
they said if we were give some
direction by the end business
today. That we find that we
spoke with staff that doesn't
have any new wooden items or
their but we can update on 2
of the items which is which
are important to us.
Wait the traffic light that we
are installing. Port high with
you the board voted on and
gave approval that we're
moving forward believe that
the schedule of that traffic
light will be during the
offseason of this upcoming
school year. You MAY remember
that we asked the school to
participate in the funding of
the item but they were unable
to commit to doing so time say
we will move forward. Yeah, I
we're going school board issue
up the. Technical college in
there exhilaration of for the
year expanded. A's expanding
next phase of the our team
that they're working with not
only news school
superintendent but as well as
doctor below leadership over
at the college you MAY
remember that we win it myself
in the mirror, but the school
board got their blessing few
months ago as well. So post
that blessing with the school
board we have been working any
mask arenas it working in
developing contacts within the
business community to further
and get their support for
upcoming expansion of the
college which would mean
better more training or. The
health care professionals that
we need for upcoming hospitals
as well as different
programming that will benefit
the city of north port. As we
continue on that some of the
school board members have been
successful unhelpful in
lobbying for some of the
funding gap between that
project what is needed the
total of that project. It's
22 million dollars school
board. We had funding in the
out years 18 million dollars
even if they decide to look
all 18 million which that
asked to say the least it was
still be appointing at so
working with them not only for
the programming to be decide
the poem that the funding and
how it will be. Salt as well
as the program hospital as
well so I'm sure I will we
know when the update on that
at this school board that's
that's a multi into multiple
effort and we're just a part
of that but we are. And as you
raise those issues up and get
to that project the we will be
soliciting our partners in
state leadership roles that
will allow for funding to
occur as so time just like
ward in this city contributed
to building of the shed
installed library over there
or the sec. I'm going we
contributed to that there will
be a petition asking the city
some point in time to help
with the when doubt. I said
all that say we don't have to
have any new item to the list
this board item that they
would like us to consider and
discuss anything to do. He
would have to discussed been
there and then bring back to
you before we vote because
they have to be submitted
after the business after today
of the business.
>> okay so again this clarify
we are going to bring up the
traffic light.
>> I will be with the traffic
light during our conversation
because it will be an
opportunity to do so. But we
do have any new items to to
the occasional estes or direct
other okay.
>> also think that's important
because I again I am a lot of
people don't realize that
traffic concerns or hat our.
The responsibility of that
municipality that and they
assume that the school board
was paid for crossing guards
and all that, but they do it.
>> so was moore's was still
specifically the fact that if
we get the traffic and
something happened happened
subsequent that I didn't want
the school board say we did in
what the potential is there
any way and not be supporting
us sure is that they supported
us in the effort of the
traffic light. Can mid to for
this
>> all right I have anything
from. My fellow commissioners.
Commissioner mcdowell yeah, I
just want this letter dated
the 20 seconds was already
sent to them are you sending
it tonight at the close of
business. Letter dated the 20
seconds I don't know there's a
letter in the back material
support from the city of port
and stated the 22nd, I'm
asking if it was sent or are
you sending at the end of
business today. That was last
letter is already sewing me.
Is it too late to add
something. In addition
everything I just yes, yes,
sir.
>> it is that it is the will
of his board to add something
we will add it to the only
thing that we have discussed
without getting any direction
from border are the same 2
item that I you can't.
>> the reason why I'm asking
is because we do only get to
meet with the school board 1,
2, year. And I I have heard
from many parents about the
concerns about safety at
school. From the fights in the
hallways, the never ending
fights in the bathrooms. And
this is ongoing problem, it's
not isolated incident and I
know that it's cool and
everybody seems to fight in
school. I remember being in
high school myself that this
is now moving entry school and
even going down and and in the
middle school. And I think
maybe a conversation on school
safety will be paramount. And
to find out what they're doing
to help the students in
addressing these safety
concerns with the fighting and
the inability for many
students to even go into the
bathroom because it's so
unsafe. The only thing that I
wanted to bring up because
this is our only chance to do
so. Ok do what we think about
that. Much to
>> to add that is item for
discussion.
>> this is quite difficult
because we can't really
oversee those items bn school
board resource officers up
there we can find out if they
planned on doing anything but
I'm just asking is it more of
a conversation that have on
here. Monthly meeting city
manager that you have with the
mayor and stuff like that
going forward because that's a
meeting every single month.
>> commissioner so what I say
it says we don't know what
items they are going to
discuss it, I'm happy to
respond back to them know that
the updates on the 2 items
will be coming forward and
then introduce those
conversations that you're
having right now get the get
into. During the meetings
we've all attended then there
is always an opportunity and
an encouragement from the
school board for us too speak
about what's important to us.
I don't believe that that item
is something that's going to
be so unique that there
wouldn't be the opportunity
for discussion and
conversation for security of
our students in our schools.
>> yeah, I'm just curious on
what would be the proper place
a proper time to discuss that
to where we could have a lake.
Commissioner mcdowell says it
is going to be a longer
conversation when it comes to
our children and what's
actually going on. Within
those school boards and what
the resource officers are
doing what the school still on
that you know that and I know
there's timelines on this
upcoming meeting so.
>> I would think that the
complication would be the
direct the best audience to
have that conversation and
then we follow up sort of
routinely about the progress
or their plans in council
government meetings and that
would be my suggestion even
get ball rolling and then
continuing that's that's what
I was sort of us over that.
>> vice mayor.
>> yeah I can get that can
more put up at the meeting I
don't know that we need this.
This is time sensitive get out
today. I can't imagine that.
this it's such important
subject that I can feel it's
not going to come up in some
way shape or form anyway. And
if it doesn't any of to bring
it up. It's opportunity speak
>> you're saying that it's too
late to add that set the
agenda item way. But we can
just bring it up we were
there.
>> additionally you are asking
bay. It's a topics as a board
and you decide on all of those
topics and then that letter is
set to school board and they
are where they have that is in
the put it on there divide it
was what I'm saying is this
year since we got the ball and
we've missed that deadline.
They're still asking us and
allowed us to submit that
thought that, but I would
careful too and anything new
when I talked to today because
you with the board did not
officially upon it an official
about to go back in a big too
I love that you have are for
you see in the book I think
that would be fine if I would
say something like the topic
did not come in the agenda and
I said to them and said think
MADAM Chair roads there chair
right now were able to submit
the topic of school safety is
important court. I would like
to put it on the record now
that we have conversation that
we think that is the important
item top of it. He bore in our
peers were not ready to
discuss it at this time of a
follow up through the school
superintendent and their
border representative during
the cop meetings think
>> appreciate commissioner
mcdowell bring that up it is
it is a concern and I think it
needs to be out there. So that
are aware of this eye made
aware of this for quite some
time with.
>> school board adopted their
police resource officers
anymore I I think that we just
need to make our concerns now
now no one has anything to do
with the other but it's also
on an unfortunate. Byproduct
of what's going on. In
general. Out there so I really
would like to have brought up,
however you think that should
be dot thank you, MADAM Aaron
is the point of reference.
>> when we started doing as we
continue to do our own state
the measures in this building
in other city buildings. We
look at what the schools were
doing an example how to begin
our processes and I know that
based on the climate of
country the county in the
state. They are always for
ways processes so working lots
I think he could be helpful
for us all.
>> commissioner dow the only
reason I was hoping that this
might be an agenda item at at
convocation government meeting
JANUARY with the school board.
Was because many have brought
this to my attention and this
isn't open. Meeting where is
cobb meetings that are held
monthly are pretty much closed
meetings and citizens can't
hear the results and what's
what steps are taking place. I
really think this conversation
needs to be had. And hopefully
we can get some some concrete
information that the parents
can take a little bit of. Hope
that things are being
addressed instead of being
swept under rug because this
involving almost daily and
it's going on the bus is now 2
and it's happening at the bus
stops. I get a lot of phone
calls on this so. Hopefully we
can have a bigger conversation
at this JANUARY meeting with
the school
>> yes, and I would encourage
parents to contact the school
board and their voice known at
those at those just tell it is
a concern all right. Okay. And
my board is clear here any
public comment all right. All
right so I think that's it
we're which all right do I
before. All right so it is
1251 in this workshop session