1 00:00:08,940 --> 00:00:13,940 All right, call the ask the city council work session to order here for Monday, February 24th. 2 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:17,060 Roll call looks like we have all members with us this evening. 3 00:00:17,500 --> 00:00:19,540 I look for approval of tonight's agenda. 4 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:20,400 So moved. 5 00:00:20,900 --> 00:00:24,060 I get a motion by Council Member Stelmack to approve tonight's agenda. Is there a second? 6 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:24,540 Second. 7 00:00:24,940 --> 00:00:27,140 Second by Council Member Johnson. 8 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:28,980 Any further discussion? 9 00:00:30,380 --> 00:00:31,320 Seeing none, all those in favor? 10 00:00:31,700 --> 00:00:31,880 Aye. 11 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:32,980 All those opposed? 12 00:00:33,780 --> 00:00:35,220 Motion passes 5-0. 13 00:00:35,220 --> 00:00:40,100 Number four discussion items for a Central Avenue streetscape project plan. 14 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:43,020 Lee, who's taking this one over? 15 00:00:44,740 --> 00:00:45,760 Jeff, who? 16 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:49,360 Hi, I am Jeff Volner with WSB. 17 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:58,300 And I have been working with city staff and the streetscape committee on evaluating the Central Avenue streetscape, 18 00:00:58,300 --> 00:01:04,680 which is, well, tonight we're going to go through and kind of talk about the existing conditions, 19 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:10,300 some of the issues and then the recommendations on the streetscape committee, and then a few 20 00:01:10,300 --> 00:01:17,780 schematic concepts to discuss, and then we'll have some question time after that for discussion. 21 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:25,220 So again, hard to see here on the photo here, but these were just Google Street View images 22 00:01:25,220 --> 00:01:28,660 of kind of the issues you guys are having out there with your pavers crumbling in 23 00:01:28,660 --> 00:01:33,700 the drive lanes, pavers crumbling in the boulevard in the sidewalk there. You can 24 00:01:33,700 --> 00:01:38,180 see in the sidewalk one panel it looks like has been replaced with concrete. So 25 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:44,520 you guys are probably well aware of the issues out there on Central Avenue. Again 26 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:50,180 kind of a broad view of the the drive lanes and what the pavers are going out 27 00:01:50,180 --> 00:01:57,460 there so not holding up and long-term solution is desired. 28 00:01:59,610 --> 00:02:00,350 So some of the 29 00:02:00,350 --> 00:02:04,570 issues we discussed in the areas we talked about within the streetscape so 30 00:02:04,570 --> 00:02:08,570 the traffic lane is one of the big issues where all the traffic is where 31 00:02:08,570 --> 00:02:10,950 the plows are hitting at the hardest where the pavers are crumbling and 32 00:02:10,950 --> 00:02:15,350 making a rough surface so the suggestions and the committee 33 00:02:15,350 --> 00:02:20,590 recommendations are removal of those pavers and installation of a more 34 00:02:20,590 --> 00:02:25,010 durable surface, a concrete surface for the drive lanes and with that evaluating 35 00:02:25,010 --> 00:02:29,210 some of the patterning or coloring and things that could go along with that. 36 00:02:31,470 --> 00:02:37,450 The second area, again vehicular area, would be the parking lanes. One of the 37 00:02:37,450 --> 00:02:42,310 ideas is to evaluate the use of permeable pavement in that area to 38 00:02:42,310 --> 00:02:46,430 catch some of the storm water and clean it and slow it before it gets 39 00:02:46,430 --> 00:02:47,090 in the storm sewer. 40 00:02:49,270 --> 00:02:52,230 As you know there's permeable pavement in the Boulevard 41 00:02:52,230 --> 00:02:57,610 areas now so there is some maintenance costs with adding more permeable 42 00:02:57,610 --> 00:03:02,310 pavements in that area. So just considering that the maintenance of 43 00:03:02,310 --> 00:03:07,110 permeable and the installation cost versus a solid concrete surface which 44 00:03:07,110 --> 00:03:13,010 would be easier to maintain would stand up to plow abuse and that kind of 45 00:03:13,010 --> 00:03:19,050 So, and with the consideration of permeable pavement, since it's not a permeable pavement 46 00:03:19,050 --> 00:03:23,230 in that area now, we need to think about the subsurface conditions there. 47 00:03:23,390 --> 00:03:25,130 So I believe that roadway is built. 48 00:03:26,170 --> 00:03:28,010 The pavers are set on concrete below. 49 00:03:28,370 --> 00:03:33,630 So that would be a significant excavation and I guess rebuilding cost to change those 50 00:03:33,630 --> 00:03:37,410 to permeable to have that water soak through the pavement in that area. 51 00:03:37,410 --> 00:03:38,930 So, the recommendation was to, 52 00:03:41,070 --> 00:03:43,750 even though there potentially are watershed grants available 53 00:03:43,750 --> 00:03:48,910 for permeable pavement and stormwater treatment, maybe this isn't the best place to do that 54 00:03:48,910 --> 00:03:52,810 because of the additional cost and long-term maintenance. 55 00:03:55,900 --> 00:04:01,700 The pedestrian sidewalks, so the actual walkway area or sidewalk area, again, existing 56 00:04:01,700 --> 00:04:09,340 Crumbling pavers are not holding up, there's some falling apart and some rough surfaces 57 00:04:09,340 --> 00:04:09,640 there. 58 00:04:09,860 --> 00:04:16,080 So, recommending a more durable surface or a concrete surface there as well, just for 59 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:22,660 ease of maintenance and eliminating that trip hazard of the crumbling pavers. 60 00:04:24,780 --> 00:04:31,100 The boulevard treatment, which is currently permeable pavers, and they're probably at 61 00:04:31,100 --> 00:04:32,740 at least halfway through their lifespan. 62 00:04:33,500 --> 00:04:35,260 So some of those are crumbling and moving around. 63 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:38,420 And just looking at it for, 64 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:40,580 looking at the rest of this project 65 00:04:40,580 --> 00:04:42,600 or the rest of the street section, 66 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:46,980 probably doesn't make sense to leave that at its half-life, 67 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:50,400 but kind of look at the project as a whole side to side. 68 00:04:50,580 --> 00:04:53,700 So that could still be permeable pavements 69 00:04:53,700 --> 00:04:56,940 back in there or again with maintenance 70 00:04:56,940 --> 00:05:02,300 and the equipment with snow removal and that kind of thing, is it holding up as well as 71 00:05:02,300 --> 00:05:06,920 you want or is that somewhere to put a more durable surface as well? 72 00:05:09,390 --> 00:05:14,970 Within the corridor, looking at the pedestrian crossings, again right now in the City Hall 73 00:05:14,970 --> 00:05:24,030 Block, those are pavers, I believe, in the crosswalks, so looking at how to have 74 00:05:24,030 --> 00:05:29,370 those areas stand out and have the crosswalks be more evident not just a 75 00:05:29,370 --> 00:05:33,550 painted line but maybe it's a different color different texture something like 76 00:05:33,550 --> 00:05:39,750 that to include in the paving and looking at the idea of adding the 77 00:05:39,750 --> 00:05:46,550 pedestrian actuated push button lighting to signify when someone's 78 00:05:46,550 --> 00:05:49,950 crossing the street so we'll be evaluating that as well. 79 00:05:53,100 --> 00:05:53,620 The raised 80 00:05:53,620 --> 00:06:00,140 These planters in the city hall block, the committee is recommending keeping those, but 81 00:06:00,140 --> 00:06:06,240 putting a fresh coat of paint or a sealant on those to refresh the look and make them 82 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:10,020 look new again, updating the plantings within those planters. 83 00:06:10,300 --> 00:06:14,840 Some of those, some of the comments where they're at an odd height where they block 84 00:06:14,840 --> 00:06:21,120 views when you're trying to pull out or turn the corner, so maybe some lower plantings 85 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:28,660 or some higher up plantings that you can see underneath to help eliminate that view issue. 86 00:06:30,260 --> 00:06:35,320 The idea of potentially working with a local nursery to develop those plants or planting 87 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:39,760 plants was brought up as well as part of the committee. 88 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:46,900 Street and Boulevard trees, again, if we're looking at in the city hall block, if we're 89 00:06:46,900 --> 00:06:51,280 looking at replacing the sidewalk, the pavement, doesn't really make sense to 90 00:06:51,280 --> 00:06:57,400 to work around those street trees that are currently kind of outgrowing their space. 91 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:02,900 So with the replacement of the pavements replacing the street trees as well, 92 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:06,120 maybe giving them a little more room or tree grades that would help 93 00:07:07,260 --> 00:07:10,560 denote their area a little better than just the mulch squares that are there now. 94 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:17,760 And then other amenities. Irrigation is in the city hall block in the planters and in 95 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:24,240 around those trees and that would be repaired as needed more likely just the the raised 96 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:31,280 planter areas and then you know beyond the city hall block the lighting the 97 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:36,420 bollards the seating areas would remain those are still still in good shape so we 98 00:07:36,420 --> 00:07:41,200 did put together some schematic concepts we brought two concepts to the 99 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:46,580 streetscape committee and got comments on that and from that we revised one 100 00:07:46,580 --> 00:07:50,420 of them to give a couple more options and again for discussion this evening. 101 00:07:54,290 --> 00:08:03,890 So the first concept would be changing the drive lanes to plain concrete so similar to 102 00:08:03,890 --> 00:08:07,290 what you have throughout the rest of the corridor and again this block we're looking at the 103 00:08:07,290 --> 00:08:12,410 city hall block and the elements that we would introduce in this block we would also 104 00:08:13,290 --> 00:08:18,510 slowly introduce into the other blocks as maintenance and replacement takes place. 105 00:08:18,510 --> 00:08:25,850 So, the main drive lanes would remain plain concrete, similar to the other blocks, and 106 00:08:25,850 --> 00:08:33,130 then the sidewalks would be a colored concrete, so a standard broom finish concrete, but in 107 00:08:33,130 --> 00:08:34,050 a tone or color. 108 00:08:34,330 --> 00:08:40,750 So, in this scenario, maybe it's a tan or an earth tone that kind of matches some of 109 00:08:40,750 --> 00:08:42,930 the paver colors that were originally chosen. 110 00:08:42,930 --> 00:08:43,490 In 111 00:08:45,500 --> 00:08:51,360 this concept, we were showing the parking lanes as, again, permeable pavers. 112 00:08:51,500 --> 00:08:55,000 They could be permeable with a simple change of the label. 113 00:08:55,140 --> 00:09:00,040 They could be a stamped or colored concrete and still have that paver feel that you have 114 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:00,680 out there now. 115 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:06,880 In the parking areas where they don't get as much traffic, don't get as much abuse 116 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:11,560 maybe as the drive lanes and as many cars coming up and down, you can have a little 117 00:09:11,560 --> 00:09:13,760 a more decorative surface in there. 118 00:09:15,500 --> 00:09:17,540 Lastly, the boulevard, again, could remain 119 00:09:17,540 --> 00:09:21,220 the existing permeable pavers or like what's there now 120 00:09:21,220 --> 00:09:23,400 so that could remain a permeable surface 121 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:27,640 or could also change to a stamped and colored concrete. 122 00:09:28,500 --> 00:09:31,480 And the idea in this concept is, you know, 123 00:09:31,500 --> 00:09:33,120 we've still got kind of the full range of color 124 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:34,320 that you have out there now. 125 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:36,980 We're denoting the different areas 126 00:09:36,980 --> 00:09:38,800 of the parking lanes in the boulevard, 127 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:46,020 but really getting more durable surfaces in the main drive lanes and the sidewalks. 128 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:52,420 In this concept, the crosswalks would be a different color as well. 129 00:09:52,580 --> 00:09:54,560 So they'd be the same color as the sidewalks. 130 00:09:55,180 --> 00:10:00,940 It would kind of tie that pedestrian access area all the same. 131 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:05,380 So you would be able to see that as you're driving down the street 132 00:10:05,380 --> 00:10:09,120 that it's a different color where the crosswalks are in the concrete itself. 133 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:09,960 So 134 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:20,400 again, in the blocks beyond the City Hall Block, so long term as maintenance and replacements 135 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:26,180 take place, we would continue with that colored concrete sidewalk, so that would be consistent 136 00:10:26,180 --> 00:10:27,560 throughout the whole corridor. 137 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:37,720 The crosswalks could be replaced in that same way to keep the pedestrian areas, that colored 138 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:38,580 tone of concrete. 139 00:10:38,580 --> 00:10:45,960 And again, the boulevard could remain the permeable pavers that you have now or replace 140 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:52,240 with permeable or again switch to a more decorative stamped and colored concrete for a little 141 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:53,300 more durable finish. 142 00:10:59,450 --> 00:11:06,230 Concept two we were looking at again with the long-term maintenance and holding up 143 00:11:06,230 --> 00:11:10,790 to the abuse that our lovely winters give this area. 144 00:11:10,790 --> 00:11:16,590 the main drive lanes would be primarily plain standard concrete with some 145 00:11:16,590 --> 00:11:22,510 colored concrete bands added within the block so that kind of breaks up just the 146 00:11:22,510 --> 00:11:27,670 the sea of concrete you know plain concrete and gives it some color gives 147 00:11:27,670 --> 00:11:31,170 it some some character similar to the banding that you have in your paver 148 00:11:32,430 --> 00:11:37,650 pavement now. In this concept the parking lanes are treated the same as 149 00:11:37,650 --> 00:11:41,990 the driveline so there's consistency where the vehicles are driving again with 150 00:11:41,990 --> 00:11:47,190 that that banding to kind of break up the overall field. This concept is also 151 00:11:47,190 --> 00:11:53,230 showing plain concrete for the sidewalks so again if there's you know every 152 00:11:53,230 --> 00:11:57,550 everywhere has got plain concrete if we ever need to replace another panel or 153 00:11:57,550 --> 00:12:01,490 something gets cracked or broken it's easy to go back in and and fix and 154 00:12:01,490 --> 00:12:06,490 have things match long-term. Maybe not as decorative as what you have now 155 00:12:06,490 --> 00:12:11,370 or the other concept, but more use of standard materials. 156 00:12:13,410 --> 00:12:17,990 And then here is one where we were showing replacement of the permeable pavers in the 157 00:12:17,990 --> 00:12:23,810 boulevard with a stamped and colored concrete that would match the tone of the bands in 158 00:12:23,810 --> 00:12:24,270 the pavement. 159 00:12:25,390 --> 00:12:30,230 So basically a two color scheme here, we're showing grays, again to work with the gray 160 00:12:30,230 --> 00:12:31,570 tone of the plain concrete. 161 00:12:33,630 --> 00:12:37,290 But a little different look of the overall block. 162 00:12:41,010 --> 00:12:41,610 And again, how that 163 00:12:41,610 --> 00:12:47,990 would be adapted to the other blocks as the sidewalks are replaced, you know, the pavers would come 164 00:12:47,990 --> 00:12:54,010 out and the sidewalks would be put back in as plain concrete, as well as the boulevards being 165 00:12:54,010 --> 00:12:57,950 replaced with the stamped textured concrete. 166 00:13:03,500 --> 00:13:06,240 So again, these are the materials we're talking 167 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:13,720 about left to right. Left is colored concrete. I guess the left two columns are colored concrete. 168 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:21,100 The second column is what the sidewalk could look like with a tan tone. Again, 169 00:13:22,100 --> 00:13:27,240 standard broom finish concrete but an integrated or an integral color that would give it that 170 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:29,660 softer warmer tone to it. 171 00:13:33,860 --> 00:13:36,760 The column on the right permeable pavers again they come 172 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:39,980 in different shapes, textures, sizes from what you have now. 173 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:44,440 So if we choose to maintain that type of pavement, 174 00:13:44,620 --> 00:13:46,120 we can get a slightly different look 175 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:48,520 or keep similar to what you have now. 176 00:13:49,620 --> 00:13:52,520 And then I guess the second column from the right 177 00:13:53,660 --> 00:13:57,200 are different textures of stamped and colored concrete. 178 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:02,810 So a little bit more decorative concrete could be used. 179 00:14:02,990 --> 00:14:04,570 We were thinking more in the boulevards 180 00:14:04,570 --> 00:14:07,010 than the drive lanes or the crosswalks 181 00:14:07,010 --> 00:14:13,050 because with vehicular traffic that patterning can wear a little more and show wear patterns 182 00:14:16,650 --> 00:14:19,970 and is a little more costly to put in to get that stamp and color. 183 00:14:21,150 --> 00:14:21,750 So 184 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:27,940 the preferred concept with the streetscape committee was the first one. 185 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:35,080 So we went ahead and put together with some recommendations some other alternatives based on that first concept. 186 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:42,420 So this one again the main drive lanes would stay plain concrete through the 187 00:14:42,420 --> 00:14:46,960 whole block with the crosswalks having a different tone or different color to 188 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:57,260 to make them stand out. The parking lanes would be similar color but a 189 00:14:57,260 --> 00:14:59,840 plain a colored concrete in a standard finish. 190 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:07,580 In the parking lanes. So not a permeable pavement, but a different color just to denote those parking lanes. 191 00:15:09,180 --> 00:15:15,340 The sidewalks in this scenario would change to plain concrete. So plain gray concrete. 192 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:22,520 And then the boulevard would have the colored, stamped, textured concrete. 193 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:29,700 concrete. This concept had more of the gray tones, again, kind of shifting from the earth 194 00:15:29,700 --> 00:15:36,100 tones that you have now, simply to kind of work with standard materials with the gray 195 00:15:36,100 --> 00:15:42,940 tones of the plain concrete, darker tones in the parking lanes for turning tires, and 196 00:15:42,940 --> 00:15:49,800 things like that where they get dirty would not show as much in this concept, but a different 197 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:52,140 look overall than what you have out there now. 198 00:15:56,770 --> 00:15:58,890 And then concept we're calling 1C, 199 00:15:59,150 --> 00:16:05,090 another variation on that first concept. Again, standard concrete in the drive 200 00:16:05,090 --> 00:16:14,250 lanes, the parking lanes would have a different texture or stamp to them or 201 00:16:14,250 --> 00:16:18,390 different scoring in the parking lanes and the crosswalks, but again plain 202 00:16:18,390 --> 00:16:23,750 concrete and in this one the sidewalks of the pedestrian areas have the similar 203 00:16:23,750 --> 00:16:28,290 color tones that you currently have so the tans and the sidewalk the boulevard 204 00:16:28,290 --> 00:16:34,170 could have more of that brown earthy tone whether it's a permeable pavement 205 00:16:34,170 --> 00:16:38,970 whether it's a stamped and colored concrete but would have kind of a blend 206 00:16:38,970 --> 00:16:47,370 of the colors of your current current streetscape and then as you as you phase 207 00:16:47,370 --> 00:16:51,930 it in. I'm assuming this is the first block that will be addressed. You wouldn't have 208 00:16:51,930 --> 00:16:56,590 that totally different look as you phase it into the other blocks. 209 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:03,500 So that's really what 210 00:17:03,500 --> 00:17:07,780 I had quickly to go through as far as concepts. So I guess I'd like to open it up for your 211 00:17:07,780 --> 00:17:08,080 discussion. 212 00:17:09,860 --> 00:17:11,540 What's all our questions? 213 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:18,740 Mr. Mayor. So just to kind of talk a little bit about some of the comments that he 214 00:17:18,740 --> 00:17:21,060 made, and Harold, jump in and interrupt me any time, okay? 215 00:17:23,300 --> 00:17:24,480 When you get to the 216 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:31,340 concepts, the B and the C concepts, the biggest thing about that is that we 217 00:17:31,340 --> 00:17:34,920 originally did explore utilizing the potential of a lot of the 218 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:35,680 permeable pavers. 219 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:41,520 We feel confident we could get a grant for some of it, but to 220 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:47,380 his point specifically about the stuff on the street part of it itself, is that 221 00:17:47,380 --> 00:17:51,660 that we're pretty confident thinking back and remembering that the whole roadway bed 222 00:17:51,660 --> 00:17:57,940 is concrete. And then when they built it, it was too low, so then there's some bituminous 223 00:17:57,940 --> 00:18:02,800 underneath there. And then it's glued to the bituminous. So going the direction of 224 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:06,440 trying to add permeable pavers, we kind of felt would be cost prohibitive. 225 00:18:08,620 --> 00:18:09,600 If it 226 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:13,360 was the desire to do that as well, the other thing about some of the permeable 227 00:18:13,360 --> 00:18:18,400 pavers that if we decide to stay with them, when we might still be able to get some funding 228 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:25,200 for permanent waivers to the watershed district for back-of-curb usage, but one of the factors 229 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:34,980 to consider there is while it does have some water type of benefits, the other part of 230 00:18:34,980 --> 00:18:40,100 it is that it does need to be sprayed out, cleaned out, maintained otherwise it gets 231 00:18:40,100 --> 00:18:44,000 clogged up and once it's clogged up there's just nothing else that can be done. 232 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:51,760 So then we're looking at a continue maintenance and work component for public works to maintain 233 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:57,720 that which I personally I don't know if Council Member Johnson feels the same way kind of 234 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:04,320 walks on the edge of not a really good benefit to return ratio simply because of the fact 235 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:12,220 the ongoing maintenance of that could potentially make even using permeable pavers there not 236 00:19:12,220 --> 00:19:17,480 necessarily a great idea. It was great back in the day, but now we know and have learned 237 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:22,920 more about that part of it. So that's where the whole permeable paver part comes into 238 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:23,300 place. 239 00:19:24,420 --> 00:19:29,660 Can I just jump in real quick? The other part too that we talked about is with the 240 00:19:29,660 --> 00:19:36,340 permeable pavers, really, that's only affecting those kind of gentler rains where you have 241 00:19:36,340 --> 00:19:37,040 the gully washes. 242 00:19:38,120 --> 00:19:40,980 That's just, it doesn't matter if you have permeable or not, that's going to run right 243 00:19:40,980 --> 00:19:45,440 off into the gutter line and go right into the storm sewer, so we also consider that 244 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:45,800 as well. 245 00:19:46,780 --> 00:19:52,120 Yeah, so I mean the mountain vima rain, but even still if we don't maintain those 246 00:19:52,120 --> 00:19:56,580 permeable pavers very well, it's a very limited time perfume which they're no longer 247 00:19:56,580 --> 00:19:57,560 very functional anyways. 248 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:03,320 which is what we haven't done. Right. So they probably are not even effective at 249 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:09,060 all right now the way they are. Right. And really the main difference between, you 250 00:20:09,060 --> 00:20:14,760 know, in his print kind of like the the B and the C concept, I think that's what 251 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:21,020 it was, yeah the B and the C concept, is with the B concept there's a little bit 252 00:20:21,020 --> 00:20:25,900 more limited use of some of the colorings. We are shifting away from the 253 00:20:25,900 --> 00:20:33,240 overall color scheme of what's going on, which is where the C1 kind of makes some sense because 254 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:36,960 we are kind of sticking with the color scheme of what we have now moving forward, so it's 255 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:43,380 not going to be as much of a dramatic change, especially if we decide through this that 256 00:20:43,380 --> 00:20:49,060 we have to address that north end of Central Avenue on the west-hand side, then also you're 257 00:20:49,060 --> 00:20:50,640 going to have something totally different on one side. 258 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:52,460 The other side doesn't need the work, really. 259 00:20:52,460 --> 00:20:57,200 it's just in front of city hall here and then that one area down there. So it's really kind of a 260 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:03,560 matter of comfort and design shifting that we're really looking at right now but really we focused 261 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:11,580 on delineation of the parking lanes, the crosswalks and then really additionally we all have been 262 00:21:11,580 --> 00:21:16,820 exposed to the challenges that we have with trying to get across central and somewhere 263 00:21:16,820 --> 00:21:23,240 pedestrian challenges and so looking at pedestrian actuated crossing signals at 264 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:28,360 the ends of the plaza there as well. On both sides of City Hall Block. Yep. 265 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,500 Here's talking. Crosswalk sign, we push the button and it flashes. 266 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:36,120 Yep. 267 00:21:38,900 --> 00:21:42,940 So it's taken a lot of hours of meetings to get to this point and 268 00:21:42,940 --> 00:21:47,360 several different renderings to give to you guys to get your feedback and 269 00:21:47,360 --> 00:21:50,160 and hopefully come up with some consensus to move ahead. 270 00:21:50,820 --> 00:21:55,360 Well, I think one of the things is with the concrete, 271 00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,820 you're going to have a lot longer life than what 272 00:22:00,820 --> 00:22:01,940 we have with pavers. 273 00:22:02,580 --> 00:22:06,580 Pavers, even the ones that are there that are still 274 00:22:06,580 --> 00:22:09,440 surviving, are near their end use 275 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:12,760 and are just going to continue to deteriorate. 276 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:18,700 and see we got we're ten years in and and got a lot of deterioration so the 277 00:22:18,700 --> 00:22:27,680 deterioration is going to start to just multiply from here on and with some of 278 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:32,620 these designs of what they can do with the concrete it to make it look 279 00:22:32,620 --> 00:22:39,000 attractive I think is the important thing that I like about this changing to 280 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:43,660 concrete rather than even thinking about any type of pavers at all. 281 00:22:51,900 --> 00:22:53,800 Other opinions, thoughts? 282 00:22:55,140 --> 00:23:03,080 Mr. Mayor, I want to thank the committee for spending the time to put this together 283 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:07,140 and putting the research into it. A lot of the questions were answered. 284 00:23:10,790 --> 00:23:23,610 In short, I like option 1C, not having the pavers, I think is a good idea, because it's 285 00:23:23,610 --> 00:23:27,070 hard and it's not that our public works department doesn't do their job. 286 00:23:27,150 --> 00:23:31,430 They do their job really well, and they put in long hours and every hour they're working, 287 00:23:31,530 --> 00:23:32,350 they're giving it their all. 288 00:23:32,610 --> 00:23:35,050 But there's only so many hours in a day and we only have so many people. 289 00:23:35,450 --> 00:23:42,830 So, to be fair to that group, I think putting in pavers is thinking more about a pretty 290 00:23:42,830 --> 00:23:46,390 look then about what it takes to maintain that for the future and the stress that it 291 00:23:46,390 --> 00:23:47,210 would put on the team. 292 00:23:49,310 --> 00:23:53,930 I'm more in favor of like a colored or stamped concrete, but I'd like to learn a little 293 00:23:53,930 --> 00:23:59,730 bit more about when we're coloring concrete, what's the life expectancy of a color before 294 00:23:59,730 --> 00:24:01,770 it goes to that beautiful dull gray and gray? 295 00:24:04,530 --> 00:24:12,330 I think it varies. Again, depending on who you talk to, some people say that if you get 296 00:24:12,330 --> 00:24:17,390 the right air mixture, the right color mixture, the integral concrete will stand up as well 297 00:24:17,390 --> 00:24:23,250 as the regular concrete as far as durability. Color does fade over time. I don't know that 298 00:24:23,250 --> 00:24:27,910 there's a set amount of time. I guess a lot of that's probably amount of salt that 299 00:24:27,910 --> 00:24:32,070 goes on it, amount of sun that it's in, there's a number of variables. 300 00:24:32,450 --> 00:24:33,890 So I don't know that there's a set. 301 00:24:35,370 --> 00:24:37,290 And it's probably batch dependent, too. 302 00:24:37,530 --> 00:24:40,430 I mean, you're going to want to pour something all from the same batch 303 00:24:40,430 --> 00:24:43,610 so that it is through at least the same pour the same. 304 00:24:44,790 --> 00:24:48,870 So for something that way, these colors, and I'm not a concrete guy, 305 00:24:48,950 --> 00:24:52,490 so bear with me, these colors, are they topical in nature? 306 00:24:52,710 --> 00:24:54,110 Are they blended in with the mist? 307 00:24:54,110 --> 00:24:56,670 This would be an integral color, so the color would be throughout the concrete. 308 00:24:56,670 --> 00:25:03,990 And the thought there is if a plow does scratch it or a corner chips, it's the same color 309 00:25:03,990 --> 00:25:04,230 through. 310 00:25:04,430 --> 00:25:10,750 It's not a colored sealant or an acid wash that will wear off as quickly. 311 00:25:10,930 --> 00:25:15,070 This, if the surface wears down, shows wear patterns, it's going to have that same color 312 00:25:15,070 --> 00:25:15,910 throughout the concrete. 313 00:25:16,870 --> 00:25:18,310 Yeah, I, thank you. 314 00:25:18,770 --> 00:25:19,010 Thank you. 315 00:25:19,770 --> 00:25:21,350 I just, I like the look of one. 316 00:25:21,350 --> 00:25:26,490 see it keeps it got some different colors going on which was the the one nice 317 00:25:26,490 --> 00:25:32,810 thing about having pavers but obviously they deteriorate too quickly and the 318 00:25:32,810 --> 00:25:37,650 city still got to pay a bill for that but I think going with concrete however it 319 00:25:37,650 --> 00:25:43,130 goes is the right way to go my my thought council and as far as looks 320 00:25:43,130 --> 00:25:48,150 go I really like the look of 1C I think it has a lot going on and is pretty 321 00:25:48,150 --> 00:25:48,890 visually pleasing. 322 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:59,000 How does one see a dress where you may have a bump out in 323 00:25:59,000 --> 00:25:59,520 the future? 324 00:26:02,190 --> 00:26:07,030 Would you be looking at taking that out or? I'm sorry the bump out 325 00:26:07,030 --> 00:26:14,190 word? Like if we went into the next block or something that had a bump out 326 00:26:14,190 --> 00:26:20,590 that would we be looking at getting rid of that since we'd be going with 327 00:26:20,590 --> 00:26:27,250 concrete and they're more of a block kind of no the the bump-outs would stay 328 00:26:27,250 --> 00:26:31,030 exactly where they are we're not anticipating changing the curb line or 329 00:26:31,030 --> 00:26:35,150 anything on any of the blocks whether it's a central avenue block or the other 330 00:26:35,150 --> 00:26:39,890 blocks up and down central or sorry the city hall block or the other blocks 331 00:26:39,890 --> 00:26:45,150 up and down central avenue it wouldn't that the bump-outs would not 332 00:26:45,150 --> 00:26:48,290 change the curb line would not change its location so 333 00:26:50,470 --> 00:26:51,330 yeah just to follow up 334 00:26:51,330 --> 00:26:54,210 on that. The road geometry would stay the same. The parking lanes would be in the 335 00:26:54,210 --> 00:26:57,690 same area. The bump-outs at the corners would remain the same. They would just be 336 00:26:57,690 --> 00:26:59,750 different materials. Okay. 337 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:11,460 Follow-up question. Now, did I understand that the 338 00:27:12,900 --> 00:27:18,000 fading with what you're proposing here is not going to be a factor like we 339 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:23,440 talked about some of these other areas where concrete has been fading and it 340 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,360 end up a different color in five years? 341 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:30,820 I think it will fade slightly as concrete cures and ages, 342 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,840 even plain white concrete changes color some. 343 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:35,920 So it will fade and probably lighten up. 344 00:27:36,500 --> 00:27:41,280 But where some concrete coloring is a topical sealant 345 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:45,660 or paint or acid stain that's just 346 00:27:45,660 --> 00:27:49,140 in the very top film of the concrete that would wear off, 347 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:51,800 this would be concrete that would be the same color 348 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:52,260 throughout. 349 00:27:52,260 --> 00:27:59,400 So, again, if it chips, if it shows wear patterns, it should be the same color underneath. 350 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:03,920 It's not a coating on top that would need to be replaced or refreshed. 351 00:28:06,180 --> 00:28:13,400 Explain to me this one that's up here now on the Central Avenue driving lanes. 352 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:22,760 you've got lines across you know making squares out of small squares is is that 353 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:30,780 just a that's cut only just a little bit or how far yeah control joints are 354 00:28:30,780 --> 00:28:35,980 typically through is it a third of the concrete isn't it so you don't want 355 00:28:35,980 --> 00:28:39,760 concrete panels too big or they'll crack so you're you're kind of guessing 356 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:44,720 where they'll crack and keeping panels in a size that won't crack, so you put that 357 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:49,060 decorative scoring in there to try and control where it'll crack. 358 00:28:49,900 --> 00:28:53,300 Now you also mentioned something about replacing panels. 359 00:28:54,340 --> 00:28:59,920 Are you saying that if we have one of these that goes bad, that it can be replaced? 360 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:06,300 Just like with any other city street or concrete street, if you have a utility repair that 361 00:29:06,300 --> 00:29:07,600 that you need to do in the middle of the street 362 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,960 or if there's an accident or something and one does crack. 363 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:13,900 Yeah, you can go in and saw cut out that square, 364 00:29:14,540 --> 00:29:17,380 kinda drill the dowels into the remaining concrete 365 00:29:17,380 --> 00:29:20,960 around there and tie a new panel of concrete back in there. 366 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:23,880 Yeah, and to piggyback off that, 367 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,640 that's why the Concept 1B, can you go back to that, Jeff? 368 00:29:27,700 --> 00:29:31,280 Concept 1B is a little more just uniformed 369 00:29:32,860 --> 00:29:35,700 gray concrete for that exact reason. 370 00:29:35,700 --> 00:29:41,220 And if we have to, for some reason, go in there for utility work or one of the panels 371 00:29:41,220 --> 00:29:46,680 in the sidewalk gets really heaved and breaks up, it's far easier to replace a piece 372 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:52,340 of gray concrete with another piece of gray concrete to match versus even with concept 1C 373 00:29:52,340 --> 00:29:55,220 where you have some of this beige kind of, you know, brownish coloring. 374 00:29:56,260 --> 00:29:59,840 In five years, you're not going to be able to replace that exactly with the same color panels. 375 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:06,100 So it's going to look off, which is why the concept 1B was one of our preferred options 376 00:30:06,100 --> 00:30:12,220 in the committee for just ease of replacement of various panels. 377 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:34,560 One of the other things that we did discuss was the tree placement. We talked about, you 378 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:41,840 know, getting rid of the bark and putting down the steel plates, grates, whatever you 379 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:42,240 call them. 380 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,460 Yeah that's one thing we did talk about as well. It doesn't really show here in 381 00:30:46,460 --> 00:30:52,740 the concepts but something we fight the battle of putting new mulch out there 382 00:30:52,740 --> 00:30:56,360 every single year to only have it get flushed away down the drain during a 383 00:30:56,360 --> 00:31:01,320 big storm and it's frankly it's kind of stupid to continue to just replace 384 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:08,540 you know with mulch and stuff so you know one thing I know Nick was 385 00:31:08,540 --> 00:31:13,200 really interested in would be when we take all the trees out and when we 386 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:17,300 redo block by block is to bury those trees a little bit lower and then have a 387 00:31:17,300 --> 00:31:21,320 great, you've all seen the grates in various different applications, but 388 00:31:21,860 --> 00:31:25,700 that just gets away from having to re-put mulch and then that's frankly 389 00:31:25,700 --> 00:31:27,540 going to be washed down during the next big rain. 390 00:31:33,510 --> 00:31:35,450 Do you have any examples? Have 391 00:31:35,450 --> 00:31:42,970 you done any of this anywhere locally? Of switching a whole streetscape or 392 00:31:42,970 --> 00:31:50,990 just using the stamped and colored concrete? Yes. Yes, there's numerous examples. Lee actually 393 00:31:50,990 --> 00:31:54,970 was just showing me one. He took a picture in Maple Grove where they just replaced 394 00:31:54,970 --> 00:32:01,150 paper crosswalks similar to what you have here, but they were just the crosswalks 395 00:32:01,150 --> 00:32:05,710 in the streets and they replaced it with stamped and colored concrete for the same reason. 396 00:32:06,110 --> 00:32:10,810 Papers were crumbling. They had really gotten uneven. Some of the pavers had settled. 397 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,480 You saw me texting before the meeting, I was sending a picture to Riley and to Nick. 398 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:38,180 If you know where the hospital is in Maple Grove, they got the shops just north of there. 399 00:32:38,340 --> 00:32:40,840 They have literally gone in and tearing up all the pavers. 400 00:32:41,540 --> 00:32:47,380 And they do have some stamped colored concrete that they've put in place of the pavers. 401 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:49,360 So if you want to see a good example of that. 402 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:55,540 and they really, it's been in there for about a year, year and a half maybe, but 403 00:32:55,540 --> 00:32:59,320 they pound the daylights out of it with their with plows and loaders and things 404 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:04,140 like that, so it appears to be holding up very well, but the same concerns that 405 00:33:04,140 --> 00:33:06,740 Councilmember Schulz and Johnson brought up with regards to 406 00:33:06,740 --> 00:33:12,040 color-grafating and things like this, that's, that's, it's going to be an 407 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:17,520 issue. One thing that I thought of after we met with the Street Escape 408 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:24,240 committee last week. I didn't mention I had a project 25 years ago used black concrete 409 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:29,560 carbon gutter and it's holding up really well. But what I did explain the streetscape committee 410 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:36,520 is that before even thinking about pouring that out in the street, we did test samples. 411 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:41,580 So in this case what I would say be very easily to get to work with a concrete supplier 412 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:46,900 and pour some test sections and I'm just gonna pick maybe not public works for Nick 413 00:33:47,620 --> 00:33:51,000 and you could just have just some test panels that you just throw away later on 414 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:55,820 but you could actually see the color and let it let harden up and let and let it 415 00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:01,000 and you possibly put some joint joint patterns on there just you want to do 416 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:05,940 that just to make certain that you're okay with the color before it 417 00:34:05,940 --> 00:34:10,160 starts getting poured right right in your on your front door so I would see if 418 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:12,620 Jeff, can you go back to either one of these? 419 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:13,880 Well, that's one B or one C. 420 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:16,560 I'd really recommend that that would be a part of it. 421 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:19,960 We'd pour some concrete, some panels, maybe eight by eights 422 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:21,500 or something like this, just so you get a good, 423 00:34:22,020 --> 00:34:24,500 you can visualize what that color's gonna look like. 424 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,680 And you could pour two or three different test areas 425 00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:29,260 just so you can understand what the colors 426 00:34:29,260 --> 00:34:29,900 are gonna look like. 427 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,020 And where would you pour those test areas 428 00:34:34,020 --> 00:34:35,120 within this block? 429 00:34:37,100 --> 00:34:44,420 I think we just pick a spot down public works shop and you just build some frames and some 430 00:34:44,420 --> 00:34:48,240 plywood and you just bring them in there and just pour them differently so you can actually 431 00:34:48,240 --> 00:34:49,780 see them after they start setting up. 432 00:34:50,940 --> 00:34:56,180 If you do that, at least you got your at least readily assured that when it does go in, 433 00:34:56,780 --> 00:35:00,900 you like the color and you can maybe start telling that if it's a little too red or 434 00:35:00,900 --> 00:35:05,700 something like this you can maybe modify it but if it looks wrong there it's likely 435 00:35:05,700 --> 00:35:07,820 going to look wrong when you when you pour it out here. 436 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:13,340 Did the committee go as 437 00:35:13,340 --> 00:35:21,500 far as coloring or decisions like that? Did you have any directives that you 438 00:35:21,500 --> 00:35:25,500 thought were better than? The only coloring examples are what you see in 439 00:35:25,500 --> 00:35:31,340 front of you today. Yeah I think and correct me if I'm wrong committee but 440 00:35:31,340 --> 00:35:39,200 So I think the thought was the 1B concept was a little bit better just simply because 441 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:40,340 of the replacement factor, 442 00:35:42,610 --> 00:35:44,770 at least in my opinion, that's what I liked better. 443 00:35:45,590 --> 00:35:55,310 And also the dark concrete is going to thaw faster than the light colored concrete or 444 00:35:55,310 --> 00:36:02,450 that or any other color, but the darker the concrete, the better it's going to 445 00:36:02,450 --> 00:36:04,130 thaw for winter. 446 00:36:08,700 --> 00:36:12,620 And I would add at the concept level, you know, what we're 447 00:36:12,620 --> 00:36:18,180 showing you is high level. Do we like the more earthy tans brown similar to the 448 00:36:18,180 --> 00:36:22,220 paver tones that are out there? If that's the direction we go, yes, we'll 449 00:36:22,220 --> 00:36:26,600 get a full color palette of what would go out there and some options kind of 450 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:31,680 forward. If we're okay with changing direction of the overall look of the 451 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:37,920 corridor and going more grays, again we'll do the same thing. We can we can 452 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:43,740 get some more samples and colors and overall color palette moving forward, but 453 00:36:43,740 --> 00:36:49,720 at this point it's pretty high level to try and determine a direction for the 454 00:36:49,720 --> 00:36:55,540 overall look of the corridor and what the hardscape would look like. So I guess 455 00:36:55,540 --> 00:37:02,520 As for tonight, what we're looking for from the council is really shoring up all of the 456 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:08,800 various components of this plan and getting some pretty firm direction on which, you know, 457 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:13,140 kind of an either or you want so then we can take all those components and formalize 458 00:37:13,140 --> 00:37:14,140 it into a final plan. 459 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:19,300 So maybe what I can do, maybe I'll just go down the list and I'll just kind of 460 00:37:19,300 --> 00:37:20,280 take head nods here. 461 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:26,160 Is there a leaning towards more of the gray tones versus the earth tones? 462 00:37:26,780 --> 00:37:29,800 Because that's a key component of what we're doing here. 463 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:41,640 My personal preference is that I like the earth tones, but I just don't know longevity and potential replacement 464 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:45,040 if that's the best course to do long term. 465 00:37:45,780 --> 00:37:56,000 So, you know, visually appealing is definitely the more earth tones, but I think the most practical approach is more of the grays than the B type of a configuration. 466 00:37:57,680 --> 00:37:58,980 I would agree with that. 467 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:11,120 I mean, obviously I think C is better, but if we can assure some sort of... 468 00:38:11,900 --> 00:38:14,120 I don't want to do this again in five, ten years. 469 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:20,540 Exactly. I mean, if it's going to be an issue, but I mean, if the strength and durability 470 00:38:20,540 --> 00:38:33,700 is similar, then, you know, all things equal of those two, I lean towards C, but it's going 471 00:38:33,700 --> 00:38:38,720 to last half as long, then it makes no sense. You know, I mean, that's the thing that I 472 00:38:38,720 --> 00:38:39,240 don't... 473 00:38:39,240 --> 00:38:42,880 And I don't think there's a longevity question between the two. 474 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:49,820 I don't think there's a durability question or a longevity, I mean, concrete essentially 475 00:38:49,820 --> 00:38:50,480 is concrete. 476 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:58,740 There might be some colors or mixes that maybe don't wear quite as well, but again, with 477 00:38:58,740 --> 00:39:03,420 the test panels and working with concrete manufacturers, we'd get the air mixture and 478 00:39:03,420 --> 00:39:05,800 the color mixture right for what's going in. 479 00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:10,680 I think more of the concern is if for some reason you do need to replace something 480 00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:17,320 or you decide to widen the sidewalk when the park gets redone or something like that, you'd 481 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:21,980 have that patch essentially that might not match exactly, which it probably wouldn't 482 00:39:21,980 --> 00:39:24,040 match exactly with plain grey concrete. 483 00:39:24,580 --> 00:39:30,140 But over time that kind of fades out and it gets dirty and they start to match. 484 00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:40,260 Color concrete would act similarly. It's just probably not as used and not as, you know, 485 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:45,960 tested and gone through as plain concrete which has been used for hundreds of years. 486 00:39:47,990 --> 00:39:54,230 That's right. I'm kind of in the same camp. If durability and longevity are about the same, 487 00:39:54,670 --> 00:39:58,690 I like the look of sea. If they're really going to last about as long, 488 00:39:58,690 --> 00:40:05,770 You just I just think it's a nicer look I think in the spring and the summer when there's the greens the color is going to pop nice 489 00:40:07,610 --> 00:40:09,730 And then we're sure you're probably not going to see it anyway 490 00:40:09,730 --> 00:40:11,250 So I don't know where to go with that 491 00:40:11,710 --> 00:40:15,150 But I just I just think it's a nice look so it's you know 492 00:40:15,150 --> 00:40:21,870 Function functionality has to come first. We're not stressing out public works team to go fix something that got jacked up and try and 493 00:40:21,870 --> 00:40:22,870 match color 494 00:40:23,670 --> 00:40:29,630 That it's also going to give the residents good bang for their buck so that we don't have to come back and do come back and do this again 495 00:40:29,630 --> 00:40:34,630 So durability longevity the same I would go with the one that just looks nice 496 00:40:34,630 --> 00:40:36,330 Which for me again is one see 497 00:40:40,100 --> 00:40:40,900 Council members 498 00:40:42,380 --> 00:40:48,080 There's there's a hybrid in between two as Jeff was mentioned. This is just a menu. Yeah, I like what I give you in some street 499 00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:53,140 Brought it's a menu. So, you know this could you go to one B? 500 00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:57,540 I'm sorry, go back to 1C. 501 00:40:58,060 --> 00:41:03,040 Something like this, you could still have the white sidewalk, but have a colored boulevard. 502 00:41:03,820 --> 00:41:08,480 As Nick mentioned, the streetscape committee last week, that area doesn't take a lot of 503 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:08,800 abuse. 504 00:41:10,380 --> 00:41:15,620 If you needed to inject, instead of just the whites and the grays, you could actually 505 00:41:15,620 --> 00:41:20,540 interject maybe a little different color in the boulevard, so you'd have, maybe it's 506 00:41:20,540 --> 00:41:21,200 a happy medium. 507 00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:25,140 but that would be the probably all if you want the 508 00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:31,680 That the tans in the sidewalk. I think councilman Schultz brought up. It's just your it's 509 00:41:32,780 --> 00:41:36,340 When you start remembering was the city administrator when you start replacing it 510 00:41:36,340 --> 00:41:41,480 It could it'll look a little more different than white concrete. Well, you're gonna have to try and match 511 00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:46,780 So if you want to incorporate some color one area you could it could be a blend between B and C and just 512 00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:49,040 Put it put in the Boulevard area 513 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:56,020 that won't obviously won't take as much abuse and Nick just reminded me that's 514 00:41:56,020 --> 00:41:59,040 the area he just really broom off to where he doesn't have to get up and 515 00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:02,940 plow at lucky that more heavier equipment on the street and the sidewalks 516 00:42:02,940 --> 00:42:08,700 especially with the purchase of the new blade from last year it's reduced the 517 00:42:08,700 --> 00:42:13,680 impact at the curb and behind for remove off a central significantly I 518 00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:19,020 mean pretty much they don't have to do anything there anymore which that 519 00:42:19,020 --> 00:42:23,460 That's really where a lot of the structural damage came from is scraping everything back 520 00:42:23,460 --> 00:42:24,000 off of there. 521 00:42:24,240 --> 00:42:29,680 So, you know, the other part of it is, is whatever we go through with this, making sure we have 522 00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:36,320 a procedure in place for snow removal along that area that is, this is the way we're going 523 00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:36,920 to do it. 524 00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:40,960 Now Riley's on board and this is where we're going to do it from here until eternity 525 00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:41,900 no matter who is there. 526 00:42:48,270 --> 00:42:49,890 Alstrom, what was your... 527 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:54,780 I don't have any strong opinions either way. 528 00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:57,700 In terms of color? 529 00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:06,720 In terms of color, I think that maybe the committee should, they're the ones that actually put the work into it. 530 00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:14,880 Well, what I think I'm hearing is, assuming that longevity is all the same and durability is all the same, 531 00:43:15,380 --> 00:43:19,220 that a majority of the council is looking like earth tones is the preferred palette. 532 00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:20,780 So I think we'll move forward with that. 533 00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:23,540 More accommodations are off. 534 00:43:23,540 --> 00:43:25,300 Yeah, I mean, it doesn't have to be exactly this. 535 00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:28,740 Well, we can work with Jeff and Lee to figure out something. 536 00:43:28,940 --> 00:43:31,560 So let me try moving this forward here. 537 00:43:31,740 --> 00:43:35,140 The drive lanes, the standard concrete pavement, 538 00:43:35,260 --> 00:43:36,860 that seems acceptable to everybody. 539 00:43:41,650 --> 00:43:47,030 And then for the parking lanes, we're 540 00:43:47,030 --> 00:43:49,770 showing colored and stamped concrete or colored 541 00:43:49,770 --> 00:43:52,030 and custom scoring. 542 00:43:52,950 --> 00:43:55,430 Is that, obviously, do we want to have 543 00:43:55,430 --> 00:43:57,250 have different color from the dry vials on that? 544 00:43:58,450 --> 00:43:59,750 I think that's a good idea. 545 00:44:00,030 --> 00:44:00,970 Kind of delaying the reference. 546 00:44:01,790 --> 00:44:01,930 Yes. 547 00:44:02,710 --> 00:44:07,830 Yes, but I don't think it needs to be scored like it appears here, like it's small favors. 548 00:44:09,390 --> 00:44:12,870 We can, you know, that's one of the things we can look at, you know, what's the ultimate 549 00:44:14,010 --> 00:44:18,590 financial impact with, you know, the scoring, the tool cutting, saw cutting versus the 550 00:44:18,590 --> 00:44:18,890 stamping? 551 00:44:19,850 --> 00:44:23,230 Let's figure out what that is and then decide, quite frankly, what's the most 552 00:44:23,230 --> 00:44:25,830 economically feasible to put into other elements of this. 553 00:44:26,450 --> 00:44:27,290 That's my preference. 554 00:44:27,410 --> 00:44:28,290 I'm going to put it on the same page. 555 00:44:28,290 --> 00:44:33,990 As you start putting stripes on there and stuff, I mean, if you color and stamp, and 556 00:44:33,990 --> 00:44:37,330 stripes are going to fall off, and have to repaint those over time. 557 00:44:37,570 --> 00:44:40,870 Well, it's one of the reasons that we were looking at this is to do away with the striping, 558 00:44:41,510 --> 00:44:45,730 to create such a visual change that we don't have to paint it anymore. 559 00:44:47,930 --> 00:44:50,150 So, I mean, people aren't going to be able to park wherever they want. 560 00:44:50,810 --> 00:44:51,610 It won't be like ... 561 00:44:51,610 --> 00:44:53,530 Well, there was that. 562 00:44:53,710 --> 00:44:56,150 And that's an aspect that we can put into it. 563 00:44:56,930 --> 00:44:59,410 In there, again, we could actually put in. 564 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:05,380 Riding lines in that, there's several different ways that we can do it. I don't mean truthfully. 565 00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:07,560 I don't think there's parking lane stripes there now. 566 00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:09,000 There isn't now there? 567 00:45:09,140 --> 00:45:13,640 There's a contrast in the pavers or the banding. 568 00:45:14,140 --> 00:45:19,900 But I don't know that, honestly, I think when we looked at that, we don't believe that was intentional for parking lanes. 569 00:45:20,240 --> 00:45:21,520 Sure people can't see them. 570 00:45:22,020 --> 00:45:28,700 Right. I mean, having a business on Central Avenue seems like it's nice to have striping of some sort in there, 571 00:45:28,700 --> 00:45:34,460 But it's often more of a suggestion rather than anything else. It's quite fun to watch people try to park out there 572 00:45:34,460 --> 00:45:37,720 I can tell you that. All right, let's let's move here to the 573 00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:42,300 The boulevard so right now we have the 574 00:45:43,780 --> 00:45:50,040 Permable pavers in there assuming that a the base isn't really workable would cost far too much to 575 00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:54,000 Replace that do we want to move towards again? Just a can't a concrete 576 00:45:54,740 --> 00:45:59,020 whether that be stamped in some fashion. What coloring are we looking at? Do you 577 00:45:59,020 --> 00:46:03,920 want a different color from the dry vials? What's the thought there? 578 00:46:05,620 --> 00:46:06,520 We're in the middle. 579 00:46:06,940 --> 00:46:11,700 No, in the boulevard. So where the permeable pavers are now. So in this, 580 00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:14,200 the red area in this concept. 581 00:46:19,130 --> 00:46:23,270 I would like the idea that he suggested that we put, you know, 582 00:46:23,270 --> 00:46:28,930 some sample concrete poured at different colors. It costs a little bit, but it would 583 00:46:28,930 --> 00:46:30,870 give us an idea of what this is going to look like. 584 00:46:32,370 --> 00:46:38,210 So go more towards the stamping thing, correct? That's what I'm hearing you say. I agree 585 00:46:38,210 --> 00:46:38,750 with that, too. 586 00:46:38,770 --> 00:46:42,350 But I mean like pour some at the public work so you can see. 587 00:46:42,390 --> 00:46:43,110 Yeah, we'll do that. 588 00:46:43,250 --> 00:46:45,390 I think we'll do that either way. 589 00:46:45,690 --> 00:46:45,890 Everyone else? 590 00:46:46,350 --> 00:46:46,550 That's good. 591 00:46:50,870 --> 00:47:00,910 And then the sidewalk areas, obviously one straight paneled, will match something, we'll 592 00:47:00,910 --> 00:47:05,450 figure out a tone to kind of, that works with the pallet we're thinking of here, okay. 593 00:47:06,830 --> 00:47:11,570 And then anything special for the crosswalks, other than, you know, we already talked about 594 00:47:11,570 --> 00:47:16,650 the activated pedestrian crosswalks, signs and signals, but I'm talking actual pavement. 595 00:47:18,710 --> 00:47:22,730 Some contrasting, some contrasting element in there to really make it set apart. 596 00:47:23,190 --> 00:47:23,330 Yeah. 597 00:47:25,410 --> 00:47:29,090 The picture in 1C has just a different design on it, slightly different coloring. 598 00:47:43,370 --> 00:47:43,850 Good. 599 00:47:44,190 --> 00:47:44,950 I think we're good. 600 00:47:46,090 --> 00:47:51,270 We'll get a new concept developed, and then the idea would be that we'll bring 601 00:47:51,270 --> 00:47:54,970 this forward to another council meeting for kind of final approval of the overall 602 00:47:54,970 --> 00:47:55,610 concept plan. 603 00:47:55,610 --> 00:47:59,830 take that concept plan then start looking at the actual construction component of 604 00:47:59,830 --> 00:48:00,010 this. 605 00:48:09,820 --> 00:48:17,780 My takeaway is that it's a colored, slightly colored, again we'll work with 606 00:48:17,780 --> 00:48:22,080 kind of the tones that you would like to see and we'll try to figure out 607 00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:24,260 that's that's what I'm thinking okay 608 00:48:26,620 --> 00:48:33,680 clear enough for you there's mud okay okay 609 00:48:37,720 --> 00:48:38,120 thank 610 00:48:38,500 --> 00:48:47,280 you thank you thank you all right 4b special assessment policy so for the 611 00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:51,900 last 22 years at least the council has allowed partial prepayments on special 612 00:48:51,900 --> 00:48:57,380 assessments for New Street and alley construction projects Leanne brought this 613 00:48:57,380 --> 00:49:01,420 forward and suggest that, hey, we should probably follow Minnesota State statues when it comes 614 00:49:01,420 --> 00:49:10,800 to this. So 429.061 states that the prepayment of special assessments should be all or nothing. 615 00:49:11,540 --> 00:49:17,260 That information was included in your packet this evening. I don't have anything else to 616 00:49:17,260 --> 00:49:20,560 add to that. It would be a really small change to our policy. You see the highlighted 617 00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:26,280 page number nine there, the partial prepayments and blah, blah, blah, blah. So that would 618 00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:27,920 really be the only change we're looking at. 619 00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:31,500 But I'm just looking for a general 620 00:49:31,500 --> 00:49:35,900 direction if that's something you want to get rid of. Mr. Mayor, Councilmember 621 00:49:36,980 --> 00:49:41,480 Ralu is very patient with me with my emails trying to find any type of wiggle 622 00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:48,440 room in this to allow residents and anybody in Osio to maintain some type 623 00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:51,600 of ability to continue to make partial payments but there there just 624 00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:56,760 really isn't any. And if there really isn't the opportunity to do that 625 00:49:56,760 --> 00:50:01,760 legally, which again, thank you for your patience rally with communication on that. 626 00:50:03,700 --> 00:50:07,000 Then we just have to follow the letter of law and eliminate it, I suppose. 627 00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:25,880 I personally would like to see if we could keep at least within the 30 days a partial 628 00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:26,300 payment. 629 00:50:28,290 --> 00:50:34,730 That gives these people a chance to at least pay down part of it and not have to have 630 00:50:34,730 --> 00:50:39,110 at all on the tax rolls, save them a little interest. 631 00:50:40,850 --> 00:50:49,130 The example that you give here for the 2019 Street Project, well, I think that there was 632 00:50:49,130 --> 00:50:56,270 fault in the staff taking any payments after the first 30 days in that, which you highlight 633 00:50:56,270 --> 00:51:01,310 here as being confusion to the calculating of interest and so forth and so on. 634 00:51:01,310 --> 00:51:08,390 But if at all possible, I'd like to see us to be able to at least take partial payments for the first 30 days. 635 00:51:09,010 --> 00:51:16,690 And this was one of the questions I always had every one of these street projects, exactly when can payments be made? 636 00:51:17,510 --> 00:51:24,150 And it has always been a question as to how that's identified. 637 00:51:24,150 --> 00:51:30,270 and this is now is saying that those payments are to be 30 days from the 638 00:51:30,270 --> 00:51:38,290 time the assessment I think is determined as I followed this through but if it's 639 00:51:38,290 --> 00:51:42,750 against the law and there's a legal problem with it then we probably can't 640 00:51:42,750 --> 00:51:47,950 do that but I'd like to see a lot of partial within that 30 day period 641 00:51:51,660 --> 00:52:00,120 Minnesota Statute 429.061 states that the property owner has the right to pay for the 642 00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:04,780 pay the whole of the assessment on such property with interest accrued to the date of payment. 643 00:52:05,100 --> 00:52:11,620 So that's, you know, we've been forever and a day now been allowing partial prepayments 644 00:52:11,620 --> 00:52:15,880 probably against what Minnesota Statutes suggests that we do. 645 00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:22,440 And so to Leanne and Leanne's point, her suggestion is we should really be following what the 646 00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:22,980 statute says. 647 00:52:25,420 --> 00:52:25,940 Absolutely. 648 00:52:28,650 --> 00:52:32,870 Mayor and council, and I don't want to throw a monkey wrench into this. 649 00:52:32,990 --> 00:52:40,650 I think that under state statute, there's an option to do some partial pre-payments 650 00:52:40,650 --> 00:52:43,070 by ordinance rather than policy. 651 00:52:43,070 --> 00:52:48,910 policy. I think the frustration with this has been more of a practical one that it causes 652 00:52:48,910 --> 00:52:52,390 confusion with how the interest payments are calculated. 653 00:52:54,310 --> 00:53:01,450 So we can, I think there is, and I'll have to, I'll double check it prior to the regular 654 00:53:01,450 --> 00:53:05,810 meeting but I do think that there's some language that we can allow it by ordinance 655 00:53:05,810 --> 00:53:11,730 but not policy. So that's just a little sort of clarification but I'll confirm 656 00:53:11,730 --> 00:53:19,730 that and double-check the statute. That's for 29.061. Subsection 3. Yeah I 657 00:53:19,730 --> 00:53:23,250 don't remember the subdivision off the top of my head. The council may authorize 658 00:53:23,250 --> 00:53:26,890 by ordinance partial payments of assessments prior to certification to 659 00:53:26,890 --> 00:53:31,450 the county auditor. Correct that's it. I'd like to discuss that a little further 660 00:53:31,450 --> 00:53:36,490 about tonight at a different work session. That and but to follow up to 661 00:53:36,490 --> 00:53:43,630 Riley's point there may be reasons to just take it out other practical reasons 662 00:53:43,630 --> 00:53:47,270 and I know that the city clerk has had some ongoing issues with this over the 663 00:53:47,270 --> 00:53:53,230 years and it did raise some confusion and problems last year when when we 664 00:53:53,230 --> 00:53:56,470 encountered this issue so there may be other reasons to take out of the 665 00:53:56,470 --> 00:54:00,170 policy all together yeah so I agree I agree with that but I just wanted to 666 00:54:00,170 --> 00:54:05,710 make that clarification I think we need to get some more clarity on some of 667 00:54:05,710 --> 00:54:07,150 points okay 668 00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:16,380 so so will this be at the regular council meeting no not tonight 669 00:54:16,380 --> 00:54:22,060 no no this wasn't planned to be at the next at this meeting is that going to 670 00:54:22,060 --> 00:54:27,600 give us time to have it on this current street project I believe the 671 00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:32,240 assessments are in April so yeah we have I mean we can we can try to get taken 672 00:54:32,240 --> 00:54:43,920 care of in March happen thank you yeah I look for a motion for adjournment second 673 00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:47,840 motion by councilmember Schultz second by councilmember Stelmack not 674 00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:52,560 unavailable all those favor hi hi all those post we're adjourned at six fifty 675 00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:53,520 Thank you.