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[2:19] A ?
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[4:54] A ?
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[9:40] We will now come to order.
[9:44] Welcome everyone to the August 27th 2026 meeting of the Rally.
[9:48] Historic Development Commission's certificate appropriateness Committee.
[9:50] My name is Lauren.
[9:51] What the chair of this committee at this time all have our staff call roll.
[9:56] Raw talent here.
[10:00] Lauren, what here?
[10:00] Melissa Todd here, John Schreiber here in Jordan.
[10:03] Reiland is excused.
[10:05] We have a So the meeting may proceed.
[10:09] Prior to the meeting.
[10:10] If you plan to speak this please do sign in the intestine tenant roster and will also swear you when you come up to the podium.
[10:18] The certificate appropriateness Committee is a quasi-judicial body that is governed by the North Carolina general statute and the divided.
[10:23] Unified Development ordinance were authorized to hear requests for certificate of appropriateness within historic overlay districts in Raleigh, historic landmark properties.
[10:33] And I'll have my fellow commission members introduce themselves throughout next one.
[10:38] Hello, everyone, Rob I am a lifelong Raleigh resident.
[10:44] I'm current resident of a registered historic overlay district and a registered architect.
[10:49] I'm Lauren also registered architect and ability rally for about 15 years.
[10:52] Now.
[10:57] I'm Alyssa Todd.
[10:58] Also a licensed architect in North Carolina.
[11:00] And I also live in a historic overlay district.
[11:04] Jon Chime 15 year.
[11:05] Ali resident unlicensed contractor.
[11:07] Thank you very much.
[11:08] And I'll have staff introduce themselves.
[11:13] Good evening and collect Canadian.
[11:14] I am a senior preservation planner been with the city of rally for 8 years and I have a master's degree historic Some our key guys are attorneys.
[11:24] Well, I'm Pat Jones counsel to the committee.
[11:27] Perfect.
[11:27] Thank you all.
[11:31] Our first order of business is approval of today's agenda is posted on motion.
[11:34] Mission to approve.
[11:37] Second.
[11:37] All right.
[11:38] All those I I hearing no objections.
[11:41] Motion carries unanimously.
[11:43] Next is last month's minutes.
[11:46] Those in the staff reports were made available online.
[11:50] Looking at the management July.
[11:51] 23, 6 particular Properties Committee mission to adopt the minutes.
[11:53] Motion to adopt second.
[11:56] All those in favor say Aye.
[11:59] All right.
[11:59] And what staff please report out any minor work?
[12:03] Yes, in about the last month, 17 minor works were approved.
[12:07] The address is application numbers and a brief description are available in the meeting agenda and the full applications can be viewed on the city's website.
[12:15] Thank you so much.
[12:17] All right.
[12:17] Now, my preamble.
[12:20] Before we begin the evidentiary hearing, we will outline the process of college.
[12:24] I did use old decisions in hearing cases.
[12:27] The committee conducts a quasi Judicial Adventure hearing.
[12:29] That means it's like a court hearing.
[12:33] State law says specific procedures and rules concerning how this committee must make its decisions.
[12:37] These rules are different from other types of land use decisions like rezoning cases which are legislative in nature.
[12:42] This committee's decisions are constrained by the standard review set forth in state law and the and the facts presented at the hearing.
[12:49] The committee hears and considers evidence presented at the hearing and applies to standards set forth in state law and the city's ordinance.
[12:56] The committee must base decisions upon competent material into didn't substantial evidence presented at the hearing, if you will be speaking as a witness, please focus on facts and legal standard.
[13:05] Avoiding personal preference or opinion.
[13:07] This meeting is open to the public participation is limited.
[13:10] Everyone is welcome to watch.
[13:13] Parties have rights to participate.
[13:14] Fully parties may prevent present evidence, call witnesses and make legal arguments.
[13:19] If you are not a party, you're limited to providing factual testimony.
[13:22] Only you may not appear and speak on behalf of anyone else, including nonprofit unless you are an attorney.
[13:29] Witnesses may testify, asked facts to wish their competent to testify so long as those facts relate to legal standard.
[13:34] In addition layer not expert witness testimony is limited to facts, not opinions for certain topics.
[13:40] This committee needs to hear opinion testimony from expert witnesses.
[13:43] These topics include projections about impacts on property values and traffic safety.
[13:48] We will now begin Rmg hearing before we begin.
[13:53] I would like to yes, cut.
[13:56] I thought you're I think you're raising your hand.
[14:00] The we begin going to disclose to the committee that I have a previous professional and current person relationship too.
[14:06] Our project contact for this.
[14:08] And so on councils advice, I would like to have a vote for recusal.
[14:19] Do we need to make a motion about that?
[14:22] Yes, correct.
[14:23] By motion.
[14:23] And vote except that accuser.
[14:27] That we would.
[14:27] So the motion is to accept a recusal.
[14:28] Yes.
[14:31] If we decline to accept that motion, that means we would keep her up here.
[14:38] And do we have we have enough people unit?
[14:40] The 3 would.
[14:43] There may.
[14:47] Results from because okay.
[14:52] So so the vote is to approve.
[14:56] chairs.
[14:56] Recusal.
[14:58] You can state it that way.
[14:59] That's fine.
[14:59] Okay.
[15:04] You are requesting to recuse yourself not to just make a disclosure.
[15:07] That's correct.
[15:09] On council.
[15:10] I am.
[15:10] He request us.
[15:12] Do you think you can be an impartial, a decision maker in this case?
[15:15] I do.
[15:19] So we do not have to accept the recusal.
[15:26] You don't.
[15:26] This is a little bit like a pop quiz for me.
[15:28] Okay.
[15:35] There's not only the question of the recusal and that's based upon the members.
[15:39] The deal.
[15:42] There is also possibly a public perception.
[15:46] And if a recusal has been offered but not accepted, it is possible that and the server can call the wrong conclusion about whether or not the membership accused and that might sound circumspect.
[16:00] That's about as far as I can go in this setting.
[16:03] I think there are very explicit reasons right for needing a recusal the state statutes is certainly are.
[16:12] family member financial interest?
[16:14] I don't think that you've mentioned anything that would meet the criteria unless I'm mistaken.
[16:22] A personal relationship You can be members of an association.
[16:25] Same church.
[16:25] You could be colleagues.
[16:27] really.
[16:31] Based upon the members few of whether or not that would.
[16:36] Be a justification for recusal.
[16:40] Okay.
[16:40] Thank Despite the view of impartiality.
[16:45] All except the recusal motion.
[16:49] Or do we need to make them motion to vote?
[16:53] Okay.
[16:53] Motion the motions and made a second.
[16:56] I did not make the motion I We need to okay.
[16:59] You're making a motion all I'll make a motion to vote on acceptance of chair Woodard's recusal tearing this case.
[17:09] All those in favor say Aye, any opposed.
[17:12] I.
[17:15] Okay.
[17:15] So I believe the motion still carries 2 to one.
[17:17] It does carry a a all right.
[17:20] does doesn't mean someone Holtz chairs.
[17:25] The has chair the meeting, cloud-free areas.
[17:29] glad we talked about that so that someone could bring up the chair in the back Thank you.
[17:45] Bear with me.
[17:46] Are you assuming the responsibility that would my other 2 committee members like the chair, the meeting full faith.
[17:54] thank Kayla tease.
[17:56] And I believe.
[17:59] We've learned Woodard made it through the.
[18:01] The next step is to swear me okay this time elsewhere, u N.
[18:08] What do you swear affirm the testimony you are about to proceed with will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing.
[18:16] But the truth.
[18:16] Okay.
[18:16] Thank you.
[18:17] You may proceed with the presentation.
[18:18] Thank you.
[18:22] All right.
[18:23] Good evening, everyone.
[18:24] This is Casey away.
[18:26] 1, 0, 8, 2026.
[18:31] This property is a yet to be addressed parcel that has not yet been.
[18:36] The subdivision has not been finalized.
[18:38] It was approved by Dr H D C last November.
[18:43] As part of the prosecution process at that meeting, the parents parcel is 12.
[18:49] 22 Fillmore Street.
[18:50] And I believe that.
[18:51] At some point later, Pat may have words to say about the not yet recorded subdivision, but all carry forth with talking about the application.
[19:03] It is located in the Glenwood Brooklyn Historic District, which is a street-side each OT.
[19:08] The request is to construct a primary structure, install front walk and stole an insular E walk.
[19:14] Install parking pad.
[19:17] And this is a view of the property from Jefferson Street.
[19:20] You can see the existing structure on the parent parcel is on the right side of the photo and the subject area is currently the.
[19:34] And again, another view of that area.
[19:38] And another view of the property from the intersection of Fillmore and Jefferson.
[19:44] A very brief summary of staff concerned is that dimension, setbacks and heights were not provided.
[19:50] That can Rudy of some into just panels vertically oriented, citing and wide concrete.
[19:55] Pavers.
[19:55] Were not provided and typical material details and specifications that are provided as conditions.
[20:10] Now, Colin, the applicant.
[20:14] 2 provide any presentation or additional information like the print provided.
[20:22] And if think, yeah, Taylor, if you don't mind signing in hand and will you be speaking at all?
[20:30] Also?
[20:40] we'd still like you yes, you will just need to authorize Taylor to speak,
[21:03] 108.
[21:39] for the record, if you'll both state your name in relationship to the case at the podium, please.
[21:43] So we can record it.
[21:46] Taylor meddling with the rally architecture company architect designer involved with the project.
[21:51] Great.
[21:51] Thank you.
[21:54] All of Patel.
[21:55] The property owner, great.
[21:59] Thank you.
[21:59] And I'm going swear you both.
[21:59] And if you don't mind raising your right hand, do you swear affirm that the testimony or provide will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
[22:10] I great.
[22:11] Thank You can go ahead and print proceed with any additional information you'd like to provide.
[22:17] You don't have any additional information or than what we've provided a previously in the staff report, which I think have access to.
[22:23] But I'll be on hand for any questions concerns.
[22:26] Okay.
[22:28] At this time will ask if there's anyone from the public who wishes to speak on this case.
[22:41] Hearing none.
[22:41] We'll move on to any questions from commissioners or should we stop here to do?
[22:49] We need to discuss open.
[22:52] Entitlements are legal matters.
[22:57] I would suggest that it's appropriate to proceed.
[23:02] Okay.
[23:02] And one you.
[23:08] Reached the point where you decide what you want to do this evening.
[23:12] The matter is not going to stay open.
[23:14] I'd like to share some thoughts subdivision.
[23:19] Okay.
[23:23] I have a few questions.
[23:24] If you don't approaching the podium.
[23:32] Interesting project.
[23:32] I remember when we saw the subdivision comes through.
[23:35] So we I think kind of had an idea of what this would be and you had a very nice written description about the project.
[23:45] And maybe I missed an application.
[23:46] I mean, one thing that I think helps the rendering sort of shows you mentioned in the written that locacion sort of the relationship to other structures on the block along Jefferson.
[23:55] And I feel like that was helpful context.
[23:58] I didn't necessarily see that in the application.
[24:01] The rendering shows it a little bit, but it's really only.
[24:04] Kind of a little bit of house on the left of this image.
[24:07] The green, the greenhouse beyond I I don't know if it was there.
[24:13] Another like kind of contextual diagram showing may be sort of the way it cited.
[24:18] I think that might be helpful if he I think maybe only one I would offer the years.
[24:23] We did include a site plan diagram showing the lot Okay with this round.
[24:27] Coming next, OK love.
[24:29] Ation rendering.
[24:32] We didn't provide anything.
[24:33] I will just maybe know tat that block is kind of it's a shorter block connecting to Maine streets.
[24:43] And so there's many structures present currently on that.
[24:48] Yeah, okay.
[24:48] I see that.
[24:48] I see that the site diagram slide 16, the application that that's what I was looking for.
[24:54] Something I overlooked that and then with regard spend.
[25:00] You know, we we don't work here, too.
[25:03] Try to discuss, you know, compatibility with the legal standard is the Stark district not other?
[25:11] Toning request, but I just for our understanding is there is a pending subdivision, application did mention that there is a pending some division.
[25:23] So this subdivision has been approved by this committee approved by the city.
[25:27] We're getting ready to issue the final plant.
[25:31] There is a sewer easement on the property that we are just trying to determine exactly where that lies prior to recording the final plat.
[25:40] So unfortunately, we love to have done already, but we are in the process but not final plat record yet.
[25:45] Okay.
[25:49] and one the main staff concerns was about dimensions to.
[25:53] The the property line specifically related to setbacks.
[25:57] Do you have an understanding of is it within the allowable setbacks for the zoning or will that need to board of adjustment know where where we currently show it to the best of our knowledge.
[26:12] We complying with the U D A setback standards for a tiny House lawn.
[26:15] It is worth noting but no, we we need all of our setback criteria.
[26:18] Okay.
[26:22] Thank you.
[26:22] I don't I don't have any other questions right now.
[26:26] John.
[26:26] Any questions?
[26:31] Thank you.
[26:32] Thank you.
[26:38] And time close the evidentiary hearing and bring the matter to the table.
[26:43] I will note that, fact, to the media standards referenced are those for tiny House.
[26:48] Lots.
[26:49] Okay.
[26:49] So thank you.
[26:49] Section 2002.8
[27:06] Thoughts read somewhere that the the neighborhood, this is the setbacks are.
[27:11] Kind of clearly.
[27:14] want to say define but like.
[27:17] When you see a street, you see that all the houses were intentionally built at a certain dimension.
[27:26] I read that I was trying to find the right now, but just looking at the slot 16, the one that you're talking about.
[27:32] And looking at any other, is there any other?
[27:38] Buildings on Jefferson Street that actually face Jefferson Street.
[27:42] looks like everything's kind of us the side of a house, right?
[27:44] The ones that I see at least on the block of.
[27:48] No more.
[27:49] Here's There I mean, there's one there's one on the corner of Glenwood and Jefferson that does because it's been sort of realigned an added on to.
[28:01] So I would say it France And, you know, stripped I was thinking the same way you are John, about Lake.
[28:10] Are there other?
[28:13] Contextual conditions for it?
[28:13] And you know where we've been talking about updates to our guidelines.
[28:20] Unlike accessory, dwellings and you know, tiny homes you know, I think kind of unique context.
[28:27] And so.
[28:32] Personally, I would say maybe it's the appropriate context for a tiny house.
[28:35] Face like maybe done on predominant direction of other houses.
[28:40] So it's not trying to be.
[28:43] A primary structure.
[28:44] I could see some logic for that you know, also that just the natural great and the primary structure, structure on the original lot, but also the neighboring structure.
[28:55] Me there's so much taller than what the the tiny home will be.
[29:02] I feel like it's like a context.
[29:03] It's a neat.
[29:06] Interesting take on a contextual ad.
[29:07] just also say, you know, within this, this part of this district couple blocks away.
[29:14] There's there's a cottage court that's unique.
[29:20] Redevelopment pattern in Raleigh N that is within the historic district.
[29:25] I know it's not.
[29:26] I know it's not a you know, from the period of significance.
[29:33] Obviously, it's a new development, but that is within HR director.
[29:36] You're correct?
[29:38] Yes, score is within Jodi.
[29:39] It was in the permitting process prior to district designation.
[29:43] So just it.
[29:47] on the way right before as nation to is not a that's correct project.
[29:50] Okay.
[29:55] And then I think because correct if I'm wrong because it's new.
[29:59] Not just the front.
[30:01] 25% matters.
[30:02] So this everything is correct.
[30:13] Yeah.
[30:13] Well, it will weaken reopen the venture here in creative.
[30:16] I don't think do we have any other comments?
[30:17] Okay.
[30:17] Yeah.
[30:18] Feel free to come forward.
[30:18] Taylor.
[30:20] Yeah, at this time will reopen evidentiary hearing.
[30:25] Thank you.
[30:25] Just comment John discussing about facing on Jefferson, it you can't see it from the site pictures.
[30:30] But if you were to go just further west, the street that connects up to Glenwood.
[30:37] I believe all of those houses to face north to Jefferson, even the one on the corner, which is 2 properties stand to the West is also facing Jefferson.
[30:44] So there is within the link to that block outside of small street because it's by sick to buy an There are several examples, OK?
[30:53] Thank you.
[30:55] You have any other.
[30:58] Comments for the applicant.
[31:03] Will close their that ensure hearing again.
[31:10] You know, we've got a small group up here.
[31:11] How are we feeling?
[31:12] Not a lot of comments home the fiber cement of panel laws version of that.
[31:20] That would be one thing and then out think the the skylight interpretation, things was the other thing that kind no doubt to me.
[31:26] I mean everything else I think seems reasonable from a condition standpoint.
[31:29] I'm curious what you guessed.
[31:30] Think about those 2 citing being one in the sky light on the front.
[31:37] Slow or front face.
[31:44] Call that the the former primary structure on the site, which is now in the process of being subdivided.
[31:54] That was a cla, correct turn.
[31:56] No, it was not.
[31:57] That also occurred prior to district has interesting okay.
[32:08] Now I know.
[32:13] Project in this district.
[32:13] I mean, we've approved 5 or cement paneling and this this district.
[32:22] Certainly fiber off the top my head.
[32:23] I cannot recall whether large form panels have been approved.
[32:29] would likely see them on rear titian's that are not required to through the ceiling crisis that that's I'm thinking.
[32:36] Ok?
[32:36] Thank you.
[32:45] One could argue that the portion of the summit panels being.
[32:53] similar vertical orientation as a board and batten proposed board batten siding is just a new interpretation of material that 30 being used, which is also some additions panel.
[33:04] But Justin, a different proportion to differentiate I think he noted that in letter.
[33:15] I mean, do with the bad name.
[33:19] To me.
[33:20] It really takes away it looking like.
[33:24] Big panels, you know, like you don't see if she to mention.
[33:27] He's much.
[33:27] I mean, really have to look for it.
[33:28] So.
[33:32] mean, I could I could see.
[33:34] And it's in set from yeah.
[33:37] Face also.
[33:38] Yeah, there's a pretty good.
[33:40] President photo.
[33:43] On slide 22.
[33:52] And there's there's some asymmetry.
[33:54] But overall, feel like that like.
[33:58] You know, the pattern and portions of the windows and openings are pretty You small ovations works with it.
[34:09] It may be worth asking applicant.
[34:10] I believe the photos on Page.
[34:13] 22 are examples of materials and not necessarily representative materials found in the district.
[34:20] Ray I I took it as as representative materials of what would be used, but not it in the district.
[34:29] I didn't take it is projects and the district.
[34:39] So Pat.
[34:40] If we're close so making, I don't know that we have a lot more.
[34:46] Discourse here or questions for the applicant.
[34:50] So I think we're probably close.
[34:53] to motion.
[34:55] don't know if you have any recommendations for us.
[34:58] I do.
[34:58] Thank you.
[35:02] My advice to would-be that because the subject matter of this application applies to certain plot of land.
[35:12] That does not yet exist under state law and city Hall subdivision is not complete.
[35:19] plan is not recorded.
[35:22] He should keep this matter.
[35:23] Open.
[35:25] Until the subdivision he's recorded.
[35:31] Otherwise there could be legal argument that the grant of a certificate appropriateness is premature.
[35:40] Could be granted condition.
[35:44] I wouldn't advise it.
[35:48] Certainly nice clean that way.
[35:48] I think more susceptible to challenge.
[35:54] At this Bring the applicant's backup and Rio get their reopen.
[35:58] The evidentiary hearing to get there.
[36:00] Their feedback.
[36:06] It looks like.
[36:08] You're hearing the.
[36:10] You know the conversation and so, you know, kind of point speak would be deferral to future.
[36:19] A future meeting.
[36:23] We can.
[36:23] I'm not sure house if you have a timeline on the the likely approval we could usually when we differ, try to offer he thought the next month are the following month State so the next month would be.
[36:40] Thursday.
[36:40] The 24th of September.
[36:45] Thursday, the 22nd of October.
[36:49] Would be the next 2 months.
[36:51] And then November, we typically take one it before Thursday's Thanksgiving.
[36:57] So usually becomes combined with the December hearing.
[37:01] So I mean, I I would assume I don't have hard date on when the plant will be recorded.
[37:07] I would assume here in the foreseeable future if we are allowed to be placed on the agenda for the following month in order make sure record the plot correctly and get that a complete.
[37:21] We have no opposition to that approach.
[37:24] If we're allowed to get on the agenda for next month, gladly take it if not.
[37:28] Well, apply again within the requirements.
[37:33] And Colette there.
[37:35] doesn't sound like there planning many.
[37:40] You know, changes to the application.
[37:41] But if they but they still need to resubmit something with it.
[37:46] You know, a recent Middle Tate comment or could they just sees it for the September meeting unless there are additional materials that you would like to request it.
[37:57] Sound as though much was.
[38:01] Being discussed in that regard.
[38:05] Essentially place the same application materials on the September agenda.
[38:09] Okay.
[38:12] If they did want to make any changes, what?
[38:15] But with the submission day be cause probably soon.
[38:17] Right?
[38:20] At this point, I believe it would be something that is just brought to the meeting.
[38:25] Could not we would not have sufficient time revise the staff report.
[38:29] still okay with that that September Yes, that should be no.
[38:36] No opposition to that.
[38:36] Thank you.
[38:39] Okay.
[38:42] Close the evidence hearing.
[38:46] And a move to defer the application to the September 24th 2026.
[38:51] Elaine meeting second Motion's been made second and all those in favor say Aye.
[38:56] Aye, any opposed.
[38:58] Okay.
[38:58] The motion carries unanimously thank you for your patience and for the application.
[39:04] I believe.
[39:09] brings us to the end of the agenda.
[39:11] Do we have any other?
[39:13] Do we need?
[39:14] okay.
[39:16] I was going to savor some steps and just bring I know she's got some paperwork this time.
[39:23] We will know.
[39:29] Bring back.
[39:31] The SEAL.
[39:33] A chair and the meeting.
[39:34] Back off A lot that money.
[39:49] Is there any other business?
[39:53] There is not.
[39:53] All right with that.
[39:54] This meeting is adjourned.
[39:54] Thank you very much.
[39:57] Easiest gig ?
[40:11] ?