Good evening and uh welcome to the
Thursday, August, actually it's Tuesday,
August 25th. We need to fix that on the
uh on the agenda to to change that name
the uh
the day of the week. Um but it's August
25th. uh we have a study session uh
number 2026-2
and I'd ask that everybody please
silence your phones and stand for the
pledge of allegiance
to the flag of the United States of
America and to the republic for it
stands one nation
indivisible with liberty and justice for
Roll call. Mayor Rey
>> here.
>> Mayor Prom Brock
>> here.
>> Councilman Dow.
>> Councilwoman Was
>> here.
>> Councilman Corals.
Councilman Darwitch. [clears throat]
Councilwoman Lawrence
>> here. A quorum is present.
Okay. Item number one, prosecutotorial
services interviews. Um first firm is um
Fosone and Grisco.
>> Good evening.
>> Um we're going to start out and let you
talk about your your firm and uh about
why about what you can do prosecution
wise and then we'll ask some questions
and give you some time at the end.
>> We appreciate you being here tonight.
>> Yeah, of course. Thank you very much for
having us. It's good to be with you all.
I had uh of course planned to begin with
a joke uh about how the uh council saved
the best for last uh but then obviously
uh we got a phone call uh to come and be
first instead. So I don't know what that
says about it. [laughter]
So at any rate that was a joke. Um in
all seriousness it's our great pleasure
to be here with you again. Um the firm
uh as I think we may have talked about
last time the law firm of Fosone and
Grisco which uh is the successor to
Fossil and Bond has been around uh since
the 1990s. Um we've been doing
prosecution since at least the 2010s. So
about 16 years um worth of prosecutions
going on there. Um mostly for the city
of Westland. Uh there was a period of
time where we also uh did the legal work
for the city of Wayne actually which I
think some of you uh remember a couple
of different faces um probably in that
regard.
Um but currently we're in the 18th
district court in Westland, a fairly
busy court. Um but one where the
busyiness of the court uh means that we
have to have staff sufficient to deal
with those issues. And so consequently
that means that we have uh a number of
attorneys that are trained and
proficient in prosecution work. Um and
so to the extent coverage issues arise,
there are a number of attorneys that
would be able to step in um in an
emergency to to be able to provide
coverage on on various issues. Um but at
any rate, uh I am here with my partner
Jackie Bona. Um the proposal that we
provided does present Jackie uh as the
lead prosecutor. Um so I'm the managing
partner of the firm and sort of have
general supervisory responsibility over
all of our practice areas, including our
municipal practice group. Um but I
wanted to give Jackie a moment to
introduce herself um and to to tell you
a little bit about herself. Okay.
>> Good evening. I'm Jackie Bona and um I
came to Foson Brisco in 2017. So uh just
about 10 years now. And before that I
was a courtappointed lawyer in uh
Westland. So I was 23 years experience
working with indigenous defendants there
uh representing um hundreds if not close
to thousands of people through the years
um in the district court. I also did uh
work in other district courts in the
area and when they had a need arise for
a prosecutor um they asked me to
interview and I accepted a position
there. So I started out prosecuting in
Westland. I also did some coverage work
for now Judge Olyri, but at the time she
was prosecuting in Wayne. So I was in
Wayne a couple of times for Judge Olirri
uh covering for her uh doing the
prosecution in front of Judge Mack. Um
so since then I I basically spend almost
all my time in Westland um working in um
the the district court there pre-trials
uh jury trials bench trials evidentary
hearings if we have appeals um I've
worked on appellet work to the circuit
court to the court of appeals and even
to the supreme court we had a case um I
didn't get to argue it but uh I did have
to um research and prepare the brief um
So, uh, that being said, after I was
brought on, uh, we've had, um, younger
attorneys come in. I'm in charge of
training them and getting them prepared.
Uh, and we have at least four of us that
can rotate through prosecution, and
they're all proficient in the district
court.
>> And the council has already met Sean
Fitzgerald, who is the attorney who was
with me the last time that I was here.
Um, and Shawn has a history of uh pretty
extensive municipal representation in a
variety of areas including prosecution.
Um, and Shawn would also be uh one of
the attorneys uh potentially in the
rotation for the city of Wayne work. Um,
but I wanted to point out that we we
didn't want to necessarily bring three
people um because you'd already met
Sean. So, I felt I felt perhaps uh we'd
give you a different look here today.
Um, one of the [clears throat] questions
that you'd asked me to speak to was uh
the the rate. Um, and so the proposal
that we submitted identified an hourly
rate of $175 per hour. Um, we would be
open to discussing, if selected,
alternative fee arrangements that make
sense. Um, so I think those those things
are, you know, somewhat negotiable. I
know that there's opportunity at times
for blended rates, um, or even flat
rates when it makes sense. Uh, value
based billing and different arrangements
like that. and we'd be happy to explore
any of those things. Um, again, if uh if
the city decides that that we're to be
selected for the prosecution work. Um,
the function of the local prosecutor in
our opinion is very important. There's a
litany of local policy decisions and
enforcement decisions that all flow
through the prosecutor's office. So, we
know that this is an important decision.
Uh, we make no bones about it that we we
want to be your prosecutors. That's why
we're here today. Uh we think we're the
best firm uh the best candidates for the
position. We think that we have the
opportunity to offer strategic legal
advice um both of course in general
counsel work, but we're here tonight to
talk about prosecution. Um and so we
have the capability of doing that. It's
been proven uh in a community that's
just not all that far from here. Um and
that has some of the same types of
concerns and issues that you can see
from the questions um that the council
and the and the city management has put
together. Those are some of the very
same issues that we deal with uh day in
and day out for uh other clients. Um and
so with that, I'm I'm happy to get into
uh whatever questions the council has
and we look forward to the discussion.
Okay. Um I'm going to ask you this
before we start that is your firm able
to provide prosecutional services for
the 29th district criminal dockets every
week Tuesday from 8:00 a.m. noon and one
Monday a month at 8:00 a.m. noon to
noon. uh in jury trials that are held on
Thursdays or Fridays when necessary. Uh
is it imperative that our city's legal
representation it is imperative that our
city's legal representation be able to
offer sufficient staffing to cover these
dockets? Is that an issue?
>> That's not an issue at all. Um in fact,
I I actually think that um probably
between Jackie and Shawn uh there would
almost be 100% coverage just with those
two attorneys. Um but again to the
extent that it's necessary, we've have
two or three other people that would be
able to step in um sort of on a uh I
would say not necessarily a regular
basis, but if necessary, they would be
able to step in as well.
>> Okay. Okay. Um
Councilwoman Lawrence, do you want to
start us off and just tell us the number
of questions so we can all keep track?
>> Okay,
hang on for a second. Let me find my uh
bearings here.
How many cases have you represented? Oh,
I'm sorry. It's question 10.
How many cases have you represented with
a municipality regarding environmental
violations such as air quality, fugitive
dust, geotechnical reports, and various
soil contamination testing?
Did you go to trial and what were the
outcomes?
>> So, this is uh this is an interesting
question. Um I I guess the first thing
I'd say is that the firm uh myself and attorney Stephen J. Brown um along
with attorneys from Wayne County uh
litigated through trial uh the Van Beern
Township hazardous materials landfill
case. Uh we won that case and and we're
up on appeal now. Um so we have
experience with that. We also have
experience dealing with regulated
industry generally. So uh representing a
wastewater authority for example and
it's NPDS permitting um or different
sorts of of permitting that may be
required. And similarly with private
industry uh with respect to the various
permits that they need from
environmental companies and things like
that. Um the reason I found it to be an
interesting question uh is that I think
so so yeah to be clear we have
experience in that regard. Um
it's not necessarily something that I
would typically think of as like a
district court prosecution function. I
mean it's something we'd be happy to do
in a service that we're uh qualified to
provide. Um but it it strikes me as uh
as a little bit of of an odd uh practice
area for your typical prosecutor. Um I
could certainly imagine contexts where
it would be relevant. Say for example in
the zoning context or perhaps local
ordinances uh regarding maybe
sedimentation control or uh the local
you know wastewater public sanitary
sewer system. Um that's certainly
something we can do and and we have the
capability for though. I have to say,
oh, sorry, go ahead. With respect to, I
mean, I guess a sort of a branch off of
that is we deal with uh ordinance
violations in blight and zoning and um
that type of uh of a case regularly, uh
daily, I'd say. Um we work very closely
with the ordinance department. Um our
main goal, obviously, uh the city's main
goal is compliance. Um, so we try to
work with the city uh the defendant
being charged with how to best uh go
about the goal of compliance, however
that may be. Uh, we know that some
people are just not going to comply,
which is fine. They have the right to
have a trial and we do a jury trial and
present the evidence that we have um in
front of a jury and then the jury
decides. So, we understand that not
everybody is going to comply or wants
to. And in that sense, we'll just do a
trial, let the jury decide.
>> Yeah. And I would say lastly, just to
wrap that uh question up, there's also a
variety of civil and administrative
procedures that may be more appropriate
for um uh that type of environmental
related issue. Um so for example a
public nuisance case or perhaps um a
case related to uh fire protection
because the fire protection code has
some uh elements of it that relate to
hazardous materials and things of that
nature. Um so we would be to the extent
an issue like that came our way in a
prosecution role I think we would be
looking at what the best way is to
tackle it with the ultimate goal of
compliance and and cost recovery to the
extent the city uh has has suffered
loss.
>> Okay. you said something I just want to
piggy back off of that. So when you're
dealing with try people are you're
trying to get compliance that's really
out the ultimate goal. How long do you
recommend you go working on compliance
before you say no this is enough we need
to move this forward?
>> Um I think it's really case by case
basis honestly every defendant's
different every charge is different.
Every circumstance is different right?
So, we um what we'll do is is if it's a
it's an emergency situation, the city um
the ordinance department sees that it's a public safety issue uh and it
needs to be addressed quickly. Um
usually by the time that the ordinance
officer writes the ticket and I see it
at the court, they've already tried uh
talking to the person, trying to get
compliance. Let's see if we can work on
this with you. And if that's not
happening, they get the ticket. So by
the time I see it at that point at the court level, they've already
gotten some opportunities, if it's not a
matter of extreme safety or hazardous
issues, I might give them an adjournment
a couple times uh two weeks or a month
or so. Um if it's something that's just
really not going to happen, uh because
either they can't do it or won't do it.
Um then at that point, again, that's
where you say, do you want a bench trial
or do you want a jury trial? Um and then
again if it's if we have strength of
evidence if we have all all if we have
all the evidence that we need to move
forward at that point in time we just do
the trial and you know I think dragging
it on for months and months at a time is
not good for anybody. Everyone gets
frustrated by that and then at that
point if that person's found guilty then
it's up to the judge to decide what to
do. Uh if it's a if it's a criminal case
if it's a civil case you know that's
another story. Uh, but if we're talking
about a misdemeanor that's in front of
Judge Olirri and the person's found
guilty, then the then the sentencing is
up to her.
>> Okay. Councilwas,
» let's stay on that vein then. Go with
number 12. Um, what experience do you
have? Do you have any experience with um
habitual offenders andor difficult,
mentally ill or retaliatory uh
violators?
>> We do. Yes. I I'd have to say for me um
in all the years I I represented uh uh
defendants as a court-appointed lawyer,
I I I ran through my my share of
difficult people. Uh and now as a
prosecutor, same um we [snorts] just I
just try to treat everybody with
respect. Um uh but firmness. I treat
everybody the same. I offer the same
plea deal. Not because I you know that
you've done or said X about me. The plea
deal is the same. I don't take things
personal. Um, and I just try to remain
as professional as I possibly can. If
the person doesn't want to work out any
kind of resolution that might be uh be
able to resolve the case for example
then again I done all I can and I I will
we'll just ask for a trial and then then
the if I have the evidence to move
forward five witnesses and strength of
case at that point in time we just set
it for a trial and then the judge
decides um or a jury. Um, but I I guess
what I how I feel about that is is it it
kind of comes with a job and um, you
know, we just try to treat everybody
with respect and do our job. I just want
to be professional.
>> There's a number of instances where we
run into people who have, you know,
either mental health issues or they're
just, you know, vindic vindictive or
something like this. And uh I think
there's something to be said for the
level of experience that we have that
Jackie has in particular over all these
years of of dealing with uh criminal
defendants both and believe it or not as
the defense attorney sometimes you've
almost got a harder job dealing with
your client trying to get them to be
reasonable you know and those sorts of
things. So I have 100% confidence in
Jackie in that regard. Um but she's
absolutely right. It does come with the
territory. It's something that uh in a
community that's really not all that far
away uh and in a court that's uh quite a
bit busier, we run into all sorts of
people over there. Um you know, and uh
and a lot of times that means dealing
with uh some people that may uh bounce
over from from Wayne into Westland to do
something that we have to deal with and vice versa. I'm sure you have uh
some of our repeat offenders uh down
here, too. Um, so there's been a number
of different cases where we've had to
deal with that. And, uh, my staff, uh,
is always professional but firm in the
way that they deal with these things
because at the end of the day, we have a
mission to accomplish, right? The
mission is is as prosecutors, we're law
enforcement uh, officials for the
community that we serve. Um, and so that
means that we're based on a variety of
factors. We're looking for how do we
accomplish the goals that are in the
best interest of the city and its and
its residents and it's really about
justice which means holding people
accountable.
» Okay. Uh Mayor Proto,
>> this has to do with process and any
experience you may have had in this
vein. Uh is there anything that you
could or feel you could do as a city
prosecutor to improve the efficiency of
any city court operations?
Yeah, I'll take that. Um, I think you I
think these are tough questions and it's
a good question. Uh, but it almost
presupposes that we we come in with some
preconceived notions about how things
are done here, which we really don't
have quite truthfully. I mean, uh, may
have may have taken some time to flip
through a couple of ordinances or the
charter or something like that. Um, but right now we don't know what we
don't know. And so I think there's an
element of who are the people with boots
on the ground uh that are that are
trying to get I'll just use an example
of blight, right? Who are the people
with boots on the ground trying to gain
compliance with blight? Presumably
they're writing tickets or or seeking
warrant requests. And what challenges
are they having or seeing over at the
court with these cases either not
getting uh maybe they're getting
dismissed for one reason or another um
or there could be any number of
different problems. And the same thing
with the police department, right?
they're out there boots on the ground uh
and and maybe working on crime in a
certain area or certain types of crime
and so what are they seeing? What
challenges are they experiencing or
seeing firsthand uh at the court? And
then what is city management seeing?
What is the city council seeing? So I
think in terms of process, it's really a
question of how do we manage the
transition and do the factf finding
sufficient to be able to identify the
areas that are ripe for improvement and
the things that are working well. We're
not trying to come in and change those
things, right? Uh maybe at some point we
identify additional efficiencies. I
think the starting point is a little bit
of triage. That's how I would approach
that.
>> Okay.
Are there any matters you would or would
not provide counsel to our police
department on when you're when they're
dealing with issues?
>> No.
>> Is a one- word answer. Okay.
>> It's fine. I I I would say that I I
speak to our police department on a
daily basis about something or another.
Um I uh do all of their new officer
training um [clears throat] when they
come in as new cadetses. Um I do um
legal training, I'd say once a year at
least for the full department on any
kind of new legal updates or any kind of
questions or issues I've been seeing
over at the court. something that I
would like them to focus on and improve
on and maybe do some some work on. Um I
talk to them regularly about um warrant
requests and issues they may be having
with cases. Um I would say like I said I they have my cell phone number. Most
of them when I do new officer training,
I give them my my cell phone number. If
you ever had any issues or questions or
anything as you're starting out, uh ask
me directly. Um, and I'd say the whole
detective bureau has my cell phone
number in case there's ever a question
about anything that they're working on
and we talk on a on a regular basis. I'd
say we have a very good relationship
with our our police department.
>> Okay. Uh, Councilwoman Lawrence,
>> um, define discretion as an appeals to
your role as a city prosecutor. How
would you use this?
So prosecutorial discretion,
I think about with respect to that
whether to charge,
whether to make a plea deal,
um, and how best to advocate for for
justice, for victim restitution,
uh, and and for the city's interests.
So that's how I would define discretion.
I I guess I'd ask Jackie to talk a
little bit about the factors that go
into the use of discretion, but that's
how I think about discretion is in terms
of, you know, whether we're going to do
option A or option B.
>> So, I usually take into consideration
the strength of the case. Um, do I have
a good case to move forward? Um, that
obviously has to do with evidence,
witnesses, um, police report, uh,
supporting documents. Um, so do I have
enough evidences first? I'm not gonna I
don't prosecute uh to win. I'm not here
to keep track of wins and losses or how
many people I prosecute in a day. Um, as Brandon already said, it's is to see
that justice is served. I mean, as a as
a quick sentence, but that is what it
is. I take that very seriously. Um, what
does the victim want to do with the
case? Um, I always take that in
consideration. If it's a crime of the
victim, I have discussions with that
person. How do you want to proceed? We
we're a team. I represent the city. Uh
however, if you know, I take into
consideration your interests, your
concerns. What do you want to happen
with the case and the public safety? Um
so sometimes if a victim doesn't want to
proceed, I and I decide, well, this is,
you know, I'm I'm understand what you're feeling. However, you know,
this person or say this person has a
trial that was involved. I I have to be
I have to look out for that person if
even if you don't really want to. So I
take into consideration public safety,
welfare, the city's interests, all these
things into trying to decide how to
handle a case. And again, it's a
case-byase basis and and I take into
those factors every case that I proceed
on or not.
I think I want to say one more thing
about that. Um, which is that we also
look at the compliance likelihood,
right? And the deterrent effect of the
decisions that we make. Um, so for a
first I mean I'm and I'm just not to use
any specific examples, but you've got a
first-time offender who's likely not to
reaffend again. Um, you know, maybe that
is a case that makes sense uh to have a
plea deal of a certain sort. Uh but
maybe that same deal doesn't really make
sense for somebody who's running around
town uh causing all kinds of problems
and seems to show no uh concern for
amending their behavior. Right? So I
think I think you know those are the
kinds of things that we would be taking
into consideration and thinking about
when exercising uh discretion.
>> Okay. Councilwoman was
>> can I ask one not on here?
>> Yeah. You just got to be able to do do
it again later. You just got to remember
what it is the question for later.
>> You have to do the same question for
everybody. This thing.
>> Oh, okay. Well, I want to ask this
question to everybody.
>> Just write just make sure you can do it
again. That's all.
>> How familiar are you with the cases we
currently have going on?
>> We have some familiarity. Um we don't I
mean I I've you know I understand that
there's certain things going on in town
right now. Um a number of prosay
lawsuits for example uh there's even
some cases that have made their way into
the 18th district court uh for a variety
of reasons um related to the city of
Wayne. Uh so we have some familiarity.
Uh but I have not uh done a deep dive
into the situation to you know frankly
because it's not right part of my
current role. But but at some level
obviously we would need to understand
that.
>> Just making sure that we're aware of
what you're getting your feet into. You
know what I mean? That's you know
>> you have an understanding of this. Yes.
Thank you.
>> Okay.
>> A fair a fair comment [snorts] though.
>> Okay.
>> Mor prom.
>> This question has se this question has
several parts in it and they're going to
be yes or no.
>> They're related to um
uh interpreting and enforcing certain
codes.
uh for reasons of things that are going
on right now. So, regular business, but
there are plans in the city to um uh
continue with modernization. So, it it
your assistance in that case will be and
that that part of it will most likely
would most likely be more important. So,
it's just a yes or no. Uh do you have
experience interpreting and enforcing
the following codes? Right. And I'll do one at a time if that's okay. We
don't need to explain Shar.
>> Please. Yes. The Michigan Building Code,
>> yes.
>> Residential code,
>> yes.
>> Mechanical code,
>> yes.
>> Plumbing code,
>> yes.
>> Electrical code,
>> yes.
>> Fire code,
>> yes.
>> Property manage maintenance code.
>> Yes.
>> And thank you very much.
>> Okay.
>> Um, what do you think your role is as uh
the city prosecutor?
So I compare the role in some sense,
right? You've got a county prosecutor.
They're like the chief law enforcement
official in the county. Um so you've got
a difference in scale, right? And
there's some difference in the types of
things that a city prosecutor can do
versus what a county prosecutor can do.
But it's a law enforcement position.
Basically, it's a it's a uh it's a
position where
based on what the charter says, I I
assume it's similar to other city
charters, but uh the city attorney or
the city prosecutor in this case is
responsible for uh enforcement of the
laws of the city.
>> Jackie, did you want to add to that or
>> No, I just that I mean to bottom line it
that's exactly the rule. Um, of course
there's there's different subsections to
it. Um, that I kind of covered with
respect to the the question on
discretion. Um, but as part of being a
prosecutor in the city, you have to use
discretion on a daily basis. Um, you
also have to understand that that
because you're you're a law enforcement
agent that that comes with certain
powers. Uh, and I'm very mindful of
that. Um, I know that Brandon is too. So
using discretion is important. Um making
sure that that everyone's rights are
equally um concerned and um
basically like I said to see that
justice is done and that's a that's a
simple way of saying it but I do every
day but when I go to work that's that's
the way I feel and I've been doing that
for lots of years but I keep that in my
mind every time I'm there.
Now, when if you were to be hired, would
you come in and then look at what do we
have and if you see something that's
problem, would you make it aware or how
you how do you normally handle that?
>> Absolutely.
>> When you're going through with all that
stuff, you know.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're I mean, we're
constantly having conversations with
client representatives about different
issues or coming up with ideas maybe for
ordinances as an example. um you know
that hey maybe you know we're seeing
some of this maybe that means we should
change this ordinance right in order to
cover that activity
>> it's really driven by the people who are
writing the tickets and then what you
see at court I mean we just identified
an issue with an ordinance that we've
had on the books forever and somebody
noticed that there was a comma missing
and it really changed the way that you
read the whole ordinance and so that's a
you know oh Okay. Well, that's something
that's been in the books for a long
time, but it's something that was
brought up recently that okay, now we
got to change the way we look at that
and change the and possibly change the
ordinance. So, it's it's driven by what
you see like like Brandon already
indicated, boots on the ground. And so,
having a meeting with those people that
what and then seeing what happens at the
court level will start that process.
We'll be able to see where the holes are
to try to fill them. And just to be
clear, we're not we're not like running
around out there just changing
ordinances like this. These are things
there's a chain of command involved in
it, right?
So I just don't want I don't want to
give the misimpression that we're you
know talking to patrol officers and then
writing up ordinances without sort of
going through proper channels.
>> No, but I I'm figuring you're you're
prosecuting you see it and if there's a
problem that
>> we we've dealt with different things,
people coming and having a question
about something and we found out, oh,
that got changed. Things change.
you have something in writing one way
and it you find out it's different. It
gets changed at the federal level or
state level and it it voids something or
whatever.
>> Sure. Yeah. State laws change and then
it affects the way the ordinances are
and and we're we're mindful of that too.
Yeah.
>> Okay.
>> Our clock is off. I know that. But so at
this point, let you just g give us uh
your your final push or whatever you
want to call it and uh what you want to
anything questions you have for us or
anything else you wanted to say.
>> Sure. Um
I guess I guess by way of question
is
can this be a collaborative role? I mean
or is it just show up to court and deal
with the tickets that you get? I mean we
can do either, right? Obviously, I
prefer a more collaborative kind of
process where we're able to provide
value that, you know, is not just
limited to uh, you know, you show up to
court and then you never see the client.
Um, I don't know what's been the
experience of city management or city
council in that regard, but those are
things I'd be interested in. Even if you
can't answer today, that's okay, but
yeah, those are things I'd be interested
in having more discussions about.
>> So, you prefer a more collaborative role
with the city is what you're saying?
>> Yes, absolutely.
>> Okay. And I mentioned this last time,
um, and I know we're not here to talk
about general counsel, and last time we
weren't there to talk about prosecution,
but I just can't stress enough that I
see such a such an incredible value in
having uh the general counsel function
and the prosecution function under one
uh sort of roof, right? Because just
like some of the questions that we
talked about, uh, for example, all those
different building codes and mechanical
codes and things like that, those can be
criminal or or or civil infraction type
violations that may get enforced through
the district court. Those also could be
problems that have to be addressed
civily through something like a public
nuisance claim. Um, and if you don't
have a general counsel that's kind of
doing the civil stuff and a prosecutor
that's kind of dealing with the criminal
stuff and they're not talking to each
other, it just strikes me that there
could be there could be real value to
the collaboration that can occur when
you have uh those sort of functions
combined.
>> Okay.
Anything else from council?
>> I won't take that personally. Uh
laughing at me, I'm sure, but [laughter]
she's trying to Go ahead.
>> Um and and then just the closing thought
I would share I suppose is just our
again um not to sound like a broken
record but just our focus on community.
Um you know that if we're if we're
retained and maybe even if we're not
retained quite frankly I'm in the area
enough um but you're going to see us in your
community. You're going to see us at
city events, uh, you know, police
fundraisers to the extent you have them,
chamber events, those sorts of things
because that's the type of people that
we are and those are the relationships
that we want to have with our clients,
right? Where maybe you start a client
and and you sort of develop a
professional relationship and maybe even
over time um, it becomes closer.
>> Okay. Well, we appreciate you coming out
tonight.
>> Well, thank you very much for having us.
We, you know, hope to see the next phase
of the process.
>> Thank you for being last first. Yeah.
>> Thank you.
>> Okay, we're going to take a five minute
break.
Okay, we're off to the next one. This is
um G Marco Mullins and Horton. Uh if you
want to introduce yourself to begin
with. Uh good afternoon, mayor, mayor
promp council, city manager, city clerk,
chief. Uh my name is Carrie Miller. Um
and I am your current city prosecutor.
So it's very nice to see you guys. Um
I'm uh with GM Marco Mullins and Horton.
I've been with them for 10 years. I
believe I've been your city prosecutor
for eight, maybe nine. um been through
two judges, four building officials,
three city managers,
two judges, I say that. Um so yeah, two
chiefs of police and two court
administrators,
some different faces on council. Um but
it's nice to see you all tonight. So
that's uh that's me.
>> Okay. Um,
you want to give us some of your
professional bio years of relevant
experience, which you just did. Um,
>> how many other municipalities you
currently serve, availability per the
judge's request, and backup when
necessary, and hourly rate.
>> Sure. which
>> um so I became a lawyer in 2004
and I immediately started clerking for a
judge at circuit court in Oakland County
who was uh Ed Snaznik who is an amazing
human being who passed away a couple
years ago which is really unfortunate
because he left quite a mark on the
legal profession. Um when I was working
for him he had been a prosecutor and
then he became a judge at the 48th
district court and then circuit court.
So, um, he inspired me to go into
prosecution. Criminal law was my
favorite class in law school. So, I went
right from clerking into prosecution in
2006 and have done nothing else for 20
years um, in law but that. Um, so I went
to the Oakland County Prosecutor's
Office where I was at for 15 years. I
started out in the warrants division and
worked all the way up to um, felony
court. um tried drug cases, child abuse
cases, juvenile cases, uh general cases,
wrote warrants on everything. I was in
the forfeite division for quite some
time. Um so I did that for um a long
time and then I decided that I would go
into private practice. Was lucky enough
to be hired by uh GMH
in 2018 and so I started there and um my
first big client there was the city of
Pontiac um which was was pretty large
and I was used to that one because that
was in Oakland County. So then um I
started to get contracts outside of
Oakland County and got to practice in
Wayne County for the first time which
was um a whole new world and uh one of
my first ones was the city of Wayne. Uh
so I was here before COVID. Um, so that
was really interesting and Judge Mack
was here and we were in person and
everything was in person and then um,
COVID happened and I was at that time I
was prosecuting for Redford for Wayne
uh, Belleville Pontiac and so we had to
pivot and uh, take COVID and learn how
to do court via Zoom and a whole
different world and changing everything
from meeting one-on-one with people to
um virtually and learning how to work
Zoom. At that time we were doing trials
by Zoom and um just a whole different
world from the practice that I had had
for such a long time. And then um
transitioning back into now kind of like
a quasi in-person Zoom reality that
we're in now where some things are um
but we're back in the courtroom. So, um,
currently right now, uh, I'm doing the
city of Wayne and then, um, I am doing
Ly Gorian, uh, Keo Harbor,
Gross Point,
and, uh, Redford. I back up Redford.
My firm uh, has a whole list of other
um, municipalities. I think um you're
familiar with a lot of them from knowing
us for as long as you have. Um but we're
general counsel for quite a long list.
And uh we also do prosecutions for
Seline and uh Northville. I think I
think that's our current full list, but
I I may be leaving out a prosecution
docket.
» Okay.
And I I I know the answer. I'm going to
ask you the question because I got to
ask everybody the same questions. So, if
your firm uh was able to provide
prosecutional services uh for the 29th
District Criminal Dockets every two a
week, Tuesday from 8:00 a.m. to noon and
one Monday a month at 8:00 a.m. noon to
noon. Um and jury trials are held on
Thursdays or Fridays when necessary.
It's imperative that our city's legal
representation be able to offer
sufficient staffing to cover these
dockets that you're you're able to do
all that.
>> Yeah, there's two bench trial dockets on
Thursday afternoons a month as well. Uh,
one of them is Zoom and one of them is
in person. So, uh, yeah, they're in my
schedule.
>> Okay.
Uh, Councilwoman Lawrence
and please let's just try to stay we
want to stay with the same questions for
everybody to be in the same
>> All right.
Um, define discretion as it appeals to
your role as a city prosecutor. How
would you use this discretion?
>> So I think um as a role of a prosecutor
uh ethics is the most important thing is
being ethical. So, you have to use
discretion. Um, one of the biggest
things that I do is review warrants and
you've got to look at them and decide
whether or not there's probable cause.
But when I'm looking at a warrant, I
actually kind of go a little further and
try to decide if if I really can try it
beyond a reasonable doubt. I mean, I you
only need a probable cause to write it,
but um and if there isn't, I have no
problem denying a warrant, and I I will
deny a warrant, and I and I will happily
talk to a police officer about why.
Sometimes, um there's even an
educational aspect to that. Um as far as
in the courtroom goes, uh discretion is
a big part of the job. You know what,
you have to take it's case by case. Um,
which I think you're going to hear from
any good lawyer or good prosecutor
because that's the truth. Um, but you
have to take every every case as it is
and make a decision whether you've got
good facts and um how you want to
approach it because there's a lot of
different ways to come come at a
criminal case.
>> Thank you. supposed to ask the same
question, John.
>> Yes,
>> I got them written down.
>> I think mine was number 12, right? All
right. Let's see. Number 11.
>> Yep.
>> All right.
Can you can you provide a
breakdown of your experience with
residential, commercial, industrial
compliance, such as occupying buildings
without a CFO and inspections right to
entry?
>> Yeah. So, that's actually really
interesting because I um that was brand
new for me when I left the prosecutor's
office. When I was at the prosecutor's
office, uh it was only criminal law that
we did. And then when I when I did
forfeite, it was quasi civil and
criminal, but it was all drugrelated. Um
so, I had not
worked with building codes at all except
for, you know, things at my own house
and trying to get permits and things
like that. Um, so it was a really big
education to start to learn about um the
building codes and things like that. But
in every single one of the municipal
contracts that we have, there's a
building aspect to them. So, I've become
a lot more comfortable um over the years
in in understanding that, working with
the building officials, um understanding
the building code, understanding kind of
the difference, you know, um in a
criminal case, you want um there's a
punitive aspect to it, there's a
punishment aspect to it, you know, there
really is. And in a building department
case, it's really
more of a compliance aspect, you know,
and you're looking for them to to com to
comply and come into code. Um, I mean, I
guess sometimes there could be a, you
know, a punishment if someone is really
egregious or doing something terrible,
but it's just something different. Um,
so it was some uh a a big education, but
I think I've over the last 10 years
become very very comfortable working
with the building department and
building codes.
» At what point when you're looking at
compliance do you decide that it you
need to go further because they're not
complying? What what's the what's the
parameter? How long do you wait on stuff
like that? So, I think it depends on how
serious of a situation obviously you're
dealing with, you know. So, in a
building department case, you can have
everything from um a a very very
dangerous building, which we all know
we've had, um to somebody who's not
cutting their grass or they're not
bringing in their garbage cans and
everything in between. So, you really
have to take a look at what you're
dealing with. Um, at first I think
compliance is is the first step no
matter what, you know, and and can they
is it possible? Can they even come into
compliance? Is that even something that
we can talk about? Because compliance
could be $5 million, but someone may
actually have that. Um, so initially
definitely compliance. Um, the way that
I handle most building cases is um to do
uh what's called a plea under
advisement. And so the defendant would
admit responsibility that they did
indeed commit that building code
violation and then they would get a
certain amount of time to come into
compliance and they would have review
hearings um that we would keep an eye on
them and then that criminal charge
because as you guys know most of your
cases um the building codes are still
misdemeanors and a lot of cities have
moved towards municipal civil
infractions but in Wayne the vast
majority of them are misdemeanors. So,
you actually have a criminal conviction
that you can hang over people's heads.
And people care about that. You know,
he'll stand in the way of them getting
jobs or um being able to be, you know,
going to their children's school, things
like that. So, I can kind of hold that
over their head and keep that going. And
then there's fines and costs that are
associated with that and keep their case
open. So, that's usually my number one
way of handling a building department
case. Um, sometimes you can dismiss it
uh earlier if they come like a grass
case, like a long grass case. If they
come in and they've cut their grass,
maybe you could just do like a double
parking fine for $180 and then just let
them move on because they took care of
it right away immediately. Um, obviously
other cases are different. I mean, I've
had trials on building department cases.
I've done um administrative search
warrants here on building department
cases. Um, so
sometimes you need to take it to a
different level and we've done that here
and I I have no problem doing that
again.
>> Okay. I may have missed it. You may have
told me this. What is the hourly rate
that you guys
>> So we have not raised our rates since we
first came in um eight or nine years ago
I think. Not at all. Uh but we have
suggested a a raise um with this with
this uh bidding process to um $150 an
hour. I think it was 125.
>> Okay.
Mayor Prom,
» is there anything that you feel you
could do as city prosecutor to improve
the efficiency of city and court
operations or interactions?
» Oh, that's a good question. Um, so
you know, there there's an efficiency
just an efficiency thing. you know, it's
a communication. Um, the dockets are
they're they're pretty big. Uh, all
things considered, there's usually
somewhere like I figured I prosecuting
around 2,000 to 3,000 cases monthly, I
believe, like everything all together.
Um, so, you know, you got to do a lot of
preparation work. Um, which I do. Uh, be
uh try to get things done in advance, be
communicating with the clerks, uh, be on
time. um just a lot of communication,
but the court here is a very wellrun
court. Um the staff is excellent. Uh the
clerks are really good, the court
administrator is great. Um so they they
get me what I need. Um so as far as the
court goes as the prosecutor, um it's
just a matter of prepping the docket in
advance and sending that out and um I do
that a week in advance every every week.
So,
>> thank you.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. Are there any matters uh you would
or would not provide count um
you would or would not provide counsel
to the police department on?
>> Absolutely none.
>> Okay.
Councilman Lawrence,
>> how many cases have you represented with
the municipality regarding environmental
violations such as air quality, fugitive
dust, geotechnical reports, and various
soil contamination testing? Did you go
to trial and what were the outcomes? Not
too many. Um there's been uh some that
have had some aspects to that. Um, none
in none in Wayne that I can think of.
And no, I have never gone to trial on
one of those issues.
» Okay. Uh, Councilwoman Was.
>> Okay. This is going to be a twofer
because I kind of screwed that up, John.
Um, so since I know you are familiar
with our current legal situations,
what experience do you have with
habitual offenders andor difficult latig
latigious mentally ill or retaliatory
violators?
>> You know, when I was at um the Oakland
County Prosecutor's Office, we had
habitual felon felons a lot. Um, you
would call them like a hab second, hab
third, hab fourth because they were
habitual. So, I mean, I have experience
in dealing with habitual offenders that
goes far back. Um, on a city level, it's different. You know, city
prosecutions are very very different
than than a county level in so many so
many different ways. Um, because you're
really part of the community in a
different in a different way. Um, so
I've become very familiar with uh
specialty courts and mental health
treatment courts. veterans courts, um
those kind of courts that can really
help people and and what they can do. Um
and just how excellent they are. You
know, the mental health court uh at at
our court is is excellent and it's so
impressive. And you know, we're involved
in the veterans court in Redford, which
is equally just an impressive um
program. Uh as far as dealing with
difficult defendants,
um you know, it's part of the job and
you just do it. You know, you do the job
and you do it to the best of your
ability and you treat them and everybody
the same way that you would treat any
other defendant, any other case. you
know, I use the same discretion. Um, I
try to be equally fair and reasonable.
Um, and I think I am a very fair and
reasonable prosecutor. Um, so I do the
same thing, um, that I would with
anybody else. Obviously, uh, it can be a
challenge, you know. Um but yeah, you
just got to keep doing the job and try
to get a team with you to help you and
um work together.
>> Thank you.
» Your pro.
» This is a set of yes and uh no uh
responses, right? One question is going
to be all little things in there. And um
so here we go. Uh do you have Uh, what
experience? Okay, it's going to be yes
or no. Uh, do you have uh experience
interpreting and enforcing the following
uh codes? Michigan building code?
>> Yes.
>> Residential code?
>> Yes.
>> Mechanical code?
>> Yes.
>> Plumbing code?
>> Yes.
>> Electrical code?
>> Yes.
>> Fire code?
>> Yes.
>> Property maintenance code?
>> Yes.
>> Thank you.
>> Sure.
>> Okay. So,
what do you see or what do you think the
role of the city prosecutor is?
>> So, it's interesting because you're a
lot of times as a city prosecutor,
you're dealing with citizens. Um, it's
not all, you know, horrible crimes or
habitual. A lot of times it's uh traffic
tickets and it's you know speeding
tickets or like I said it's somebody who
isn't taking out their trash or you know
so you can really be like a face of the
community and sort of get to uh know
citizens and talk to people um be part
of a community which I which I think is
really important. Um but then you have
the other level of a relationship with
the police department which I really
pride myself on. Um, you have an
excellent police department here. Um,
you have an excellent police chief,
excellent lieutenants, um, an excellent
deputy chief, amazing officers. Um, a
lot of turnover, a lot of young officers
that are coming in. Um, but I I pride
myself on having a relationship because
really another goal is safety of the
community. And as a city prosecutor, you
know, that's a boots on the ground kind
of role is um you know, making sure that
people are are safe and having a
relationship. I think that the city
prosecutor needs to work very very
closely with the police department. Um
and I I do um they all have my phone
number. I've talked to the the chief as
early as 7 o'clock in the morning, as
late as 9:00 at night. Same with the
deputy chief. A lot of the officers um
same with on the weekends. uh they call
me sometimes because they can't get a
hold of their county prosecutor to sign
for a search warrant and they can get a
hold of me. Um so they do uh I will
answer the phone for those guys um and
women uh anytime um on on vacation or
anything. So, I think it's relationships
uh with the police, safety, and then
just um also, you know, you can have a
positive role like I was saying like
with, you know, some people that just
have never come to court before and
they're coming because they have a
speeding ticket or something and you
know, you can have a a a good, you know,
it's not the it's not a major crime,
it's a speeding ticket and show them a
good experience uh at their court and
dealing with their their local
prosecutor.
Okay,
I think that's all for questions
>> that we did.
>> What was that?
» You want to say it?
>> Do you want to say it?
>> Go ahead. Do it.
>> Um, I don't know if I'm gonna say it
right, John. So, I might need you to
chime in.
>> Yep. That's
>> If hired,
will you review the cases? Oh, well,
review the cases we have and advise us,
but
>> I think it was for ordinances, right?
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah.
>> There was review and advise on.
>> So, we have a lot of different
ordinances and everything. What are your
thoughts about reviewing looking through
that stuff and seeing if there's things
that we need to improve on? Do you do
you look at things or, you know, how
things have been written? Is there
problems with stuff? Do you see, you
know, do are things good or bad? What do you recommend? What would you
recommend?
>> Criminal ordinances, building
ordinances, both
>> everything, I guess.
>> Okay. Yeah. So, um, you know, I think
that some of the building code could use
to be rewritten in some ways. You know,
I think that we would be uh it'd be good
to have a few municipal civil
infractions instead of everything being
a misdemeanor. Uh there misdemeanor can
be problematic for some building co uh
code cases because um they uh attorneys
they get attorneys um appointed to them
and then it drags out longer in court.
There's a discovery process and it can
go on longer. They have a right to a
jury trial. Um, and so it will sometimes
take a lot longer in court because of
that process, which I know can be very
uh frustrating to the building
department because they feel like on
their end, they've already given people
notices and sent letters and things and
so they want to see it move faster, but
due process
dictates that it moves a little slower.
And then there's, you know, setting it
for trial, setting for jury trial, which
could take a longer time. So, if we
considered doing a few things more like
municipal civil infractions, we could
move those along along a little bit
faster because then they don't need um
there's no jury trial or trial. It would
be a formal hearing and the judge could
have that quickly and then um it's a
fine and if it's not paid uh it's put on
your property taxes. So, that's a um an
idea that we could consider. Um, some of
it could maybe be just used to be
updated a little bit. As far as the
criminal ordinances, um, I would just
like to see us add, um, and chief and I
have spoken about this before, but I
think it'd be nice to add a a high BAC,
um, OWI ordinance to our code. Um, right
now we just have a just a drunk driving
one, but I think it would be helpful and
give me some um, more leverage if we
added a high BAC um, which is 0.17 or
higher.
uh and and it's a different level and
the main thing that that brings in is a
different um licensing sanction. Uh so
uh it's still I will still have to work
within the 90day frame of any local
ordinance as far as jail time, but the
licensing sanctions are are really um
severe and they you actually lose your
license for a year, then you have to put
a breathalyzer in your car. So, I think
um sometimes I see cases that are very
high here um on occasion uh over over a
two or over a three. So, that would be
something that might be something we
could consider. Um and we may want to
consider um a domestic violence
ordinance as well, which we don't have.
So, we have to um write that under
assault and battery if we want to keep
it local. And I think uh a domestic
violence might be something that we
would we might want to consider adding.
» Now is that normally the departments
that come up with that stuff or is it
the usually the prosecutors notices
these things which
>> I think it's sort of
>> collaborative both or
>> Yeah, I think it's a collaborative both
really. um we'd have to identify a need
and and talk with it and then decide if
we were in agreement and then present it
to council um for council's approval and
thoughts upon it.
>> Okay. And in closing, any closing things
that you'd like to say?
>> Um you know, I mean it's it's been a
pleasure, you know, like it really has.
Uh and so I've been with Wayne now for
like I said, uh I think it's eight or
nine years. And as I started out saying
like the different department heads that
I've gone through and um worked with and
uh you know I got to work with Judge
Mack who's um kind of like a a legend
area judge really. She was you know as
you guys know she started uh the mental
health treatment court with uh Judge
David Gubau who's another one of my
mentors. Um so that was just so exciting
to come here and get to work from her
and and learn under her. And then um
just I've really kind of come to really
love Wayne in a lot of ways and the city
and I didn't even really know that there
was a city of Wayne, you know, before I got this job. Um I I was aware
of it, but I just didn't live close. I
knew it was next to Westland and but I
had never been here and and um now I've
been coming here, you know, regularly
for for years and it's just a really
it's a really nice city. Um, and like I
said, I'm I think you guys should be
really really proud of your police
department. It's been an honor for me to
work with them and to get to know them.
Um, I just have nothing but respect for
the the officers here. They do they do a
really good job. Yeah. Really good job.
And that that's all I have to say.
>> Okay. Well, thank you.
>> Thank you.
We're going to take five
minutes.
Uh welcome. We are now on Rosetti
Schultz, Jopic and Ambushler uh PC. And
uh we'll start with letting you guys
tell us about uh give us your personal
bio, years of relevant service,
experience, years with the existing your
firm and uh and many municipalities that
you currently serve, ability per the
judge request, and back up when
necessary, and your hourly rate.
>> Um good evening. I'm Ann McLaclin as you
know um I'm a shareholder with our firm
and um I am a former prosecutor even
though that is not generally um part of
my current practice. I did formerly
prosecute in Garden City and Redford
Township. Um
I will not be a prosecutor for Wayne
should uh you choose to hire our firm
for this. Um but um I do want to point
out that our firm does serve many many
different communities uh as prosecutors.
We have presently 12 or more uh
attorneys in our firm who do
prosecutorial work including Matthew
Wayne who is with me tonight and I would
um like to introduce him to you and let
him describe um his relevant experience.
Um I would like to say one thing and
that is that um our hourly rate that we
have proposed is $195 an hour for uh
prosecutorial services.
>> Okay.
>> Thank you. So uh good evening council
members and madame clerk and madam
manager and all attendees. So yes, my
name is Matthew Wayne. I've been with
Rosati Schultz for two years. Um, I've
prosecuted in a number of places across
Michigan, actually 14 communities and 13
different district courts. I currently
prosecute for the city of East Lancing
in Giel Township. Um, in the past I have
prosecuted Hand Tramic and Ingster, each
of those for four years. And I have
filled in for colleagues and number
other communities such as Novi,
Berkeley,
um, Bloomfield Township, Sagen Township,
and city among others.
» Okay.
Um
we had a request from the judge uh her
availability request. Uh is your firm
able to provide prosecutional services
for the 29th District Court's criminal
dockets every week, Tuesday from 8:00
a.m. to noon and one Monday a month at
8:00 a.m. to noon. Uh and jury trials
are held on Tuesdays or Fridays when
necessary. Uh it's imperative that our
city's legal representation be available
able to offer sufficient staffing to
cover these dockets.
>> Yes.
>> So you're good. Okay.
Councilwoman Lawrence
» define discretion as it apply as it
appeals to as it appeals to your role as
city prosecutor and how would you use
this discretion?
>> Good question. Obviously discretion is a
an important part of being a prosecutor.
Um it can mean different things
depending on the context. Um, but as
prosecutors, and we learned this early
in law school, if you are a prosecutor,
you wear the hat of what's called a
minister of justice. And when you're
doing that, it means unlike a defense
attorney, for example, who is obligated
to uh go all out for their client, for
lack of a better term, um I'm not always
required to go all out for my client in
the sense that if there is something
that um is improper about an arrest, for
an example, I can't proceed on that. If
there is insufficient evidence to bring
a case, I just can't proceed on that
merely because I want to or merely
because pressure me to do so. Um,
discretion, again, it's probably easier
um to give an example um as to define,
but
discretion is using sound judgment
coupled with ethics and professionalism
in determining what cases to prosecute
and how vigorously to prosecute a
defendant.
Okay. Anything else?
Councilwoman was
>> um can you break down
uh can you provide a breakdown of your
experience with uh residential and
commercial industrial compliance such as
um such as occupying a building without
a CO and an an inspector's right to
enter. So I've uh for multiple
communities where I've prosecuted um a
lot of them who have taken their cues
from the state codes. Those are issues
that come up time.
As far as the ability in reverse order
as far as the ability for an inspector
to enter um a premises um absent
accident circumstances, there has to be
reasonable cause for an individual um
who's doing those inspections to enter
onto the property. There are of course
um circumstances such as um and this
would not go for something like plumbing
for example, but for violations that can
be seen from the street or from someone
else's property with their permission.
um that would be different. Um with um
certain um violations, plumbing and
mechanical, um those get a little more
pressing if there's something dangerous
um or if there something dangerous is
suspected of occurring there and it may
be necessary to engage the court because
unlike with um other types of offenses,
the the logic is you can't wait until
something bad happens. There has to be
some kind of impetus to um be able to go
and proactive about that and I've had to
do that. I've had to deal with um uh in
Hammock, for example, an older community
with structures there. Um it was
imperative that we had to go in there
and we had to take care of problem
structures because there were buildings
there that some of them were 100 years
old and they were just flatout dangerous
and um it's certainly not a glamorous
part of prosecuting. Not that any of it
is, but it's necessary. It has to get
done for the safety of the community.
Um, it's an eyesore, but beyond that,
nobody wants to hear about a kid or
anybody else for that matter getting
injured because someone's not taking
care of their property. And so, I
consider it just as an important part of
prosecuting as
prosecuting drunk drivers or assault or
anything else. Um, if the community has
prohibitions against it, then it's
something that needs to be paid
attention.
>> Thank you.
>> Okay. protest.
» Is there anything that you could do as a
city prosecutor to improve the
efficiency of city court operations just
in general?
>> So that of course without knowing
exactly how things run over there.
That's something I'd have to be able to
um have to take a look at. But that
said, I mean any community or I've ever
um prosecuted um I've met with the
police department and the administrator
to go over policies and procedures. Um,
I like to know why something's being
done in a certain way. Um, I understand
certain communities want things done in
a certain way, but sometimes there are
policies and procedures which are
slowing things down or they're kind of
relics. Um, I've been there's a I've
prosecuted in some courts where, for
example, um the courts continue to use
discovery orders. um and that's for
misdemeanor cases and that's kind of a
throwback to before 2020 when the court
rules changed when uh discovery was not
mandatory for misdemeanor cases. That's
not the case now. So even if there and I
I'm not saying that this would uh this
uh condition would present itself, but
if I found for example that discovery
was not being offered um right away,
exculpatory material, something that
would tend to um to disprove someone's
guilt. Um, that's the kind of thing I
like to get on that right away to move
cases along um, and get those materials
over there because we have an obligation
and then rather than um, if it's
something rather than wait for an
attorney to ask me, I've also developed
a lot of relationships with defense
attorneys and so um, those folks who
I've worked with um, it's easy for me to
reach out in advance and to work
something out and to keep the docket
from getting clogged. Um, in terms of
other matters of efficiency, I don't
know, this kind of uh might bleed into
some other areas, but um I've always
been big on helping um the police
department if requested um with
information about how to write more
efficient police reports. Um we've
worked with police departments um and
helping officers who have little or no
experience testifying um because one of
the worst things is to be put in a
position where never testify before any
type of proceeding and you know god
forbid you don't want it to happen but
then somebody catastrophic happened
someone has to testify and I have seen
that happen in other communities there
was a state case not one of the ones
that I have but there was some officers
never testified an experienced um
assistant prosecuting attorney from
county and they had defense attorneys
who've been doing this for 40 years.
Well, guess who got chewed up and spit
out? Those new officers. I never want to
see that happen. So, I pledged from that
point that I would always make sure that
the departments and all the education um
any resources that we could possibly
give them so that they could um testify
efficiently, testify knowledgeably, and
do a good job so that we don't let the
bad guys loose, so to speak.
>> Okay.
So, are there any matters you would or
would not provide counsel to the police
department on?
>> I can't really think of any. I mean, we
like, as I just uh detailed, we we do so
many in terms of um testimonial
training, but we also offer um
constitutional advice, work on search
and seizures, best practices. Um if it connects with law enforcement, if
it's going to make the community safer,
it's going to make the police department
better. And I have that knowledge. I'm
absolutely going to share it. And uh
something that's nice about having a
firm with so many people with uh so many
experience because as I believe she
said, that's really all our firm does.
Um if there's something I don't happen
to know or if I'm not up to, you know,
this up to speed exactly in the moment,
I can almost guarantee we have somebody
at our firm who who is up on that and
who has done that, who has briefed the
matter and probably litigated it. And um
That's a great thing about our firm.
Those attorneys always making themselves
available um as a resource. So again, I can't really think of anything that I
would counsel the police department on.
I said anything that's going to make a
better law better law enforcement agency
and a safer community. I know I'm going
to offer my services.
Uh, Councilman Lawrence,
» how many cases have you represented with
a municipality regarding environmental
violations such as air quality, fugitive
dust, geotechnical reports, and various
soil contamination testing? Did you go
to trial and what were the outcomes? I
have never had to prosecute any type of
environmental um ordinances or any types
of environmental violations.
And while I have not prosecuted them in
a in a criminal case um for ordinance
enforcement, I have dealt with um
environmental concerns and worked with
Eagle, which um does have jurisdiction
over things like air quality um and
fugitive dust as as is described in the
in your question. Um and our role um in
that case I was hired as a special
counsel for another city and they asked
me to initially to look into the
possibility of um abating a nuisance and
preventing demolition of a what would
they call it historic building um
because it contained asbestous and there
was some remediation that needed to be
done. So our role in that particular
case was to work with Eagle. Um we
obtained the uh property developer and
or demolition companies um um promise
and they carried through with it that
they would provide us with daily air
monitor uh and air quality readings and
things like that. so that we um ended up
proactively preventing any types of
problems that would affect the
neighboring properties and communities.
So that um that was, you know, turned
out to be done safely and while people
weren't happy that the building was
eventually demolished, it was done in a
safe manner and we were able to keep our
tabs on that.
[clears throat]
Councilwoman was.
>> Okay. So, kind of a two-part. How
familiar are you with our current legal
situations?
And do you have any experience with
habitual offenders andor difficult
latigious, mentally ill or retaliatory
violators?
So I am aware obviously conversations
with an about some of the more
interesting people
but the that's any community. Uh to
answer your question um I dealt with um
all kinds of individuals in prosecuting.
Yes. So people who are retaliatory yes
sovereign citizens yes people who
threaten violence yes
Ohio State fans. the very worst of
people.
Um, no, but all all joking aside, that
really that's any community. Um, again,
that's, you know, in those folks who
reside here or who are in the court
system, they're still entitled to their
rights. Um, I personally try to kill
them with kindness and, you know, be
respectful to them, but at the end of
the day, you know, you have to do what
you have to do. And um I know you know
something that comes up in that respect
when you have folks who have civil suits
sometimes they get picked up for traffic
violations or you know just other events
and that's where that discretion comes
in and and the ethics you have to you
know go about prosecuting them the way
that you would prosecute anyone else.
You have to look at what the criminal
record is. You have to kind of you know
divorce yourself from the fact that you
have civil litigation. Um
part of what you do as a prosecutor.
>> Thank you,
>> Mayor Proto.
>> Uh, this is a
this question has several parts in it,
each one being answered with yes or no.
An experience question with several
parts. Uh, what experience do you have
interpreting and enforcing um these
following codes? The Michigan uh do you
have experience interpreting and
enforcing these following codes? The
Michigan Building Code. Yes.
>> The residential code or any residential
code?
>> Yes.
>> Mechanical code?
>> Yes.
>> Plumbing code?
>> Yes.
>> Electrical code?
>> Yes.
>> Fire code?
>> Yes.
>> And property maintenance code?
>> Yes.
>> Thank you.
Okay.
So if also I wanted to mention one other
thing when you you brought up the uh the
hours that the court has asked the
prosecutor to be available. Um it's
always been my practice at well as well
that in addition to being present for
the times that the court needs me. I
don't, you know, keep an eye on clock
and it's not like if someone needs me
and it's, you know, past the hours of,
you know, 12, it's not 12 and 8 on a
Tuesday or that one Monday. That by no
means is going to stop me from uh taking
care of a case. I often get called on um
to hey, can you jump on Zoom? We have
somebody who got picked up and we need
to argue for bond. This person's
violent. Um, you know, I had it happen
5:30 on a Friday before other random
times. As far as I'm concerned, that's
just part of it. So, as long as I'm
available, as long as I'm not in a
hearing or in court somewhere else,
again, obviously, I will be there. You
know, if your city selects us as your
firm, I will be there um for the hours
in question. But again, by no means um
means I would be confined to just
working those hours.
>> Okay.
So, what do you think uh your role as
city prosecutor is?
>> Well, I think I've already touched by
some of this, but I mean, the first and
foremost, it's assisting and maintaining
public safety, and that's working with
the police department and other law
enforcement agencies to keep the
community safe in any way, shape, or
form that I that I can. Um, I need to
ensure that the law is executed fairly
and impartially,
maintain discretion when I need to.
exercise um sound judgment
and um also part of that discretion is
um
doing things with an eye not only for
justice but also for judicial economy.
Sometimes those go hand in hand,
sometimes they don't. Um but I think you
know it's a balance of all those and
then as mentioned um educating and
providing resources to the police
department and for that matter anyone
else um
is part of the city who wants to avail
themselves of any other training or
program.
>> Okay. Now, if you were to selected,
would you come in and look at our
ordinances and the things that we have
and make recommendations of things that
need to be fixed or how how do you
normally handle something like that?
>> I think I would work with Ann here. So,
I don't Yeah, I've already looked at
some of the ordinances. I've noticed
like some of the differences um noticed
that the city of Wayne um some of the
ordinances rather the extent of the
ordinances are not as um great as in
other communities. like lesser offenses
are handled, excuse me, less offenses or
fewer offenses rather are handled at the
local level compared to other
communities. Um I don't know that it's
my place to come in and say if
something's wrong. I mean I like to know
how it's working. I think that's an
important part and to gauge um you know
talking with uh you know folks over at
the court talking with the police
department talking with any of you you
know if how you think that these
ordinances are working is you know would
you like to see them um you know be more
farreaching is there anywhere you think
the ordinances need to kind of pull back
and then again working with an or others
to do the same thing to leers with you
and and determine what we can do there
but uh we have uh even though it's not
something that I do primarily of course
we do have a lot of experience in um
preparing ordinances and we have a lot
of materials that we can pull from.
>> I would just like to um add that um that
was something that we um included with
our general counsel
um proposal as well. But um it is
commonly our practice to note where we
feel that the mechanisms that exist are
not sufficient to do the job of um
taking care of the problems that the
city may have. Um, for example, you
know, there is the state housing law and
the dangerous building code within the
state housing law, but it does that also
allows the city to pass its own housing
code and perhaps um expand on some of
the particulars in terms of what
mechanisms are available to to take care
of problem properties. Um, especially
when you've got dangerous buildings. um
you know for um the um in another
community they didn't have their
demolition board uh convened properly
and so their hands were tied as far as
how far they could go with dealing with
those properties. So that's something
that we suggested um and that that
actually wasn't a case where we had a um
they weren't our direct client. we were
representing them in litigation related
to that issue and I flat out told them
you need to take care of this otherwise
you're going to keep ending up in civil
litigation if you don't um correct that
problem and make sure that those
mechanisms are available to your you
know your code enforcement officers and
hearing officers [snorts]
» any other questions from
Okay so if [snorts] you want to give us
a closing
pitch do Do you do you like do you think
it's something that should be
prosecution by itself or altogether and
then give your closing?
>> Okay. Um well um we have a number of
comm we represent a number of
communities where we are general counsel
and um we have attorneys in our firm who
do their prosecutorial work. Um I can I
can name you a handful right off the top
of my head. Um and those um jobs seem to
go hand in hand um because then you you
have the opportunity to work together on
something like what we just mentioned
where um you know we feel that the
prosecutorial mechanisms are
insufficient
um for the in the ordinances that are
available right now um and recommend
those types of um amendments or whatever
changes need to be made. So, um, we do believe that, um, working with
general counsel and prosecutors, working
side by side for the same community
allows us to have a more cohesive and,
um, consistent approach to each
community rather than having to contact,
if we're general counsel, you know,
having to contact a prosecutor and say,
"Hey, this is something we're thinking
about. What do you think?" You know, it
just makes it easier to have both. Um
but certainly we um given that we have
so much experience, we also do prosecute
for communities that we don't
represented as general counsel. So it's
not exclusive. But I I p personally I
think it's probably preferable to have
both because then you have the
opportunity to serve the community in a
much broader way than you do in either
individual instance.
>> Okay. Any closing? Um, no. I I think you
know, you know, you know me, you know
our firm. Um, and you know, we would be
certainly very honored and privileged if
you chose us um to um be your general
counsel and prosecutorial firm. Um, and
we're happy to serve the city of Wayne
in any way that we can.
>> Okay. Well, thank you.
>> Thank you.
>> Okay, let's go ahead and move the
agenda.
>> Public comments for matters not on the
agenda. Public comment is conducted in
accordance with applicable laws. Public
comment is limited to three minutes
which will begin when the speaker
approaches the podium unless the time is
extended by a majority vote of city
council. All public comment shall be
directed to city council and they shall
not respond. Public comment shall not be
disruptive, any violator of public
comment. Procedures may be ordered to be
seated immediately or removed by the
chairperson of the meeting or the
chairperson's designate.
>> Okay. Any public comment comments on
matters on the agenda this evening? Yes.
» First, I'm sorry about my attire, but I
didn't know this meeting was going on,
so I just took off and flew down here.
Um, Nancy Pride, I live on Courier
Street. Um,
two questions. I know about the flack
camera or the flack t cameras. if
there's any first or second or third
parties that have attached anything to
them, um they need to come down. Um the
other one is do we have a large drone
that hovers our city?
And there was one other one that I
wanted.
Oh, yes.
We have seen on uh Facebook, and I know
you can't believe everything you see on
Facebook, but I've talked to other
people and they do have them. Do we or
are we considering putting our police
officers in the schools with the stun
mits on their hands?
[clears throat] They have them and they
are putting them in the high schools and
the different places. So, I want to know
if this is what
Nope. Okay. Because to me that's that's
just such an invasion
um on young people.
I feel that it's they're trying to force
them to compliance and not be
a citizen of the United States. Thank
you.
>> Okay. Thank you. Anyone else?
Yes.
I was uh John Mills from Chestnut
Street. Um I was not able to attend your
August 13th special meeting that uh
appeared to have been on legal counsel
as well. Uh just for clarification, was
that for general counsel and tonight is
prosecutorial?
>> Yes, that's all. Thanks.
>> Okay.
» Can I get a motion to adjurnn?
>> Oh, second.
>> All in favor?
>> I
>> opposed. Motion carries.
>> Have a great night.