[28:02] Good evening and uh welcome to the
[28:04] Thursday, August, actually it's Tuesday,
[28:07] August 25th. We need to fix that on the
[28:10] uh on the agenda to to change that name
[28:13] the uh
[28:16] the day of the week. Um but it's August
[28:18] 25th. uh we have a study session uh
[28:22] number 2026-2
[28:26] and I'd ask that everybody please
[28:28] silence your phones and stand for the
[28:29] pledge of allegiance
[28:35] to the flag of the United States of
[28:37] America and to the republic for it
[28:40] stands one nation
[28:43] indivisible with liberty and justice for
[29:00] Roll call. Mayor Rey
[29:02] >> here.
[29:03] >> Mayor Prom Brock
[29:04] >> here.
[29:05] >> Councilman Dow.
[29:07] >> Councilwoman Was
[29:08] >> here.
[29:09] >> Councilman Corals.
[29:11] Councilman Darwitch. [clears throat]
[29:13] Councilwoman Lawrence
[29:15] >> here. A quorum is present.
[29:20] Okay. Item number one, prosecutotorial
[29:22] services interviews. Um first firm is um
[29:27] Fosone and Grisco.
[29:30] >> Good evening.
[29:32] >> Um we're going to start out and let you
[29:33] talk about your your firm and uh about
[29:36] why about what you can do prosecution
[29:38] wise and then we'll ask some questions
[29:40] and give you some time at the end.
[29:42] >> We appreciate you being here tonight.
[29:43] >> Yeah, of course. Thank you very much for
[29:45] having us. It's good to be with you all.
[29:46] I had uh of course planned to begin with
[29:49] a joke uh about how the uh council saved
[29:52] the best for last uh but then obviously
[29:55] uh we got a phone call uh to come and be
[29:58] first instead. So I don't know what that
[29:59] says about it. [laughter]
[30:03] So at any rate that was a joke. Um in
[30:05] all seriousness it's our great pleasure
[30:06] to be here with you again. Um the firm
[30:09] uh as I think we may have talked about
[30:11] last time the law firm of Fosone and
[30:13] Grisco which uh is the successor to
[30:15] Fossil and Bond has been around uh since
[30:17] the 1990s. Um we've been doing
[30:19] prosecution since at least the 2010s. So
[30:21] about 16 years um worth of prosecutions
[30:24] going on there. Um mostly for the city
[30:26] of Westland. Uh there was a period of
[30:28] time where we also uh did the legal work
[30:30] for the city of Wayne actually which I
[30:32] think some of you uh remember a couple
[30:34] of different faces um probably in that
[30:36] regard.
[30:38] Um but currently we're in the 18th
[30:39] district court in Westland, a fairly
[30:41] busy court. Um but one where the
[30:44] busyiness of the court uh means that we
[30:46] have to have staff sufficient to deal
[30:48] with those issues. And so consequently
[30:50] that means that we have uh a number of
[30:52] attorneys that are trained and
[30:54] proficient in prosecution work. Um and
[30:56] so to the extent coverage issues arise,
[30:58] there are a number of attorneys that
[31:00] would be able to step in um in an
[31:02] emergency to to be able to provide
[31:04] coverage on on various issues. Um but at
[31:06] any rate, uh I am here with my partner
[31:08] Jackie Bona. Um the proposal that we
[31:11] provided does present Jackie uh as the
[31:14] lead prosecutor. Um so I'm the managing
[31:17] partner of the firm and sort of have
[31:18] general supervisory responsibility over
[31:20] all of our practice areas, including our
[31:22] municipal practice group. Um but I
[31:24] wanted to give Jackie a moment to
[31:25] introduce herself um and to to tell you
[31:28] a little bit about herself. Okay.
[31:30] >> Good evening. I'm Jackie Bona and um I
[31:33] came to Foson Brisco in 2017. So uh just
[31:37] about 10 years now. And before that I
[31:40] was a courtappointed lawyer in uh
[31:42] Westland. So I was 23 years experience
[31:45] working with indigenous defendants there
[31:48] uh representing um hundreds if not close
[31:51] to thousands of people through the years
[31:54] um in the district court. I also did uh
[31:57] work in other district courts in the
[31:59] area and when they had a need arise for
[32:03] a prosecutor um they asked me to
[32:06] interview and I accepted a position
[32:07] there. So I started out prosecuting in
[32:10] Westland. I also did some coverage work
[32:13] for now Judge Olyri, but at the time she
[32:16] was prosecuting in Wayne. So I was in
[32:17] Wayne a couple of times for Judge Olirri
[32:21] uh covering for her uh doing the
[32:22] prosecution in front of Judge Mack. Um
[32:25] so since then I I basically spend almost
[32:28] all my time in Westland um working in um
[32:33] the the district court there pre-trials
[32:36] uh jury trials bench trials evidentary
[32:38] hearings if we have appeals um I've
[32:41] worked on appellet work to the circuit
[32:42] court to the court of appeals and even
[32:45] to the supreme court we had a case um I
[32:48] didn't get to argue it but uh I did have
[32:50] to um research and prepare the brief um
[32:54] So, uh, that being said, after I was
[32:57] brought on, uh, we've had, um, younger
[33:00] attorneys come in. I'm in charge of
[33:01] training them and getting them prepared.
[33:03] Uh, and we have at least four of us that
[33:06] can rotate through prosecution, and
[33:08] they're all proficient in the district
[33:10] court.
[33:12] >> And the council has already met Sean
[33:14] Fitzgerald, who is the attorney who was
[33:16] with me the last time that I was here.
[33:18] Um, and Shawn has a history of uh pretty
[33:21] extensive municipal representation in a
[33:23] variety of areas including prosecution.
[33:25] Um, and Shawn would also be uh one of
[33:28] the attorneys uh potentially in the
[33:30] rotation for the city of Wayne work. Um,
[33:32] but I wanted to point out that we we
[33:34] didn't want to necessarily bring three
[33:36] people um because you'd already met
[33:38] Sean. So, I felt I felt perhaps uh we'd
[33:40] give you a different look here today.
[33:42] Um, one of the [clears throat] questions
[33:43] that you'd asked me to speak to was uh
[33:46] the the rate. Um, and so the proposal
[33:48] that we submitted identified an hourly
[33:50] rate of $175 per hour. Um, we would be
[33:54] open to discussing, if selected,
[33:56] alternative fee arrangements that make
[33:58] sense. Um, so I think those those things
[34:00] are, you know, somewhat negotiable. I
[34:02] know that there's opportunity at times
[34:04] for blended rates, um, or even flat
[34:06] rates when it makes sense. Uh, value
[34:08] based billing and different arrangements
[34:10] like that. and we'd be happy to explore
[34:12] any of those things. Um, again, if uh if
[34:15] the city decides that that we're to be
[34:16] selected for the prosecution work. Um,
[34:19] the function of the local prosecutor in
[34:21] our opinion is very important. There's a
[34:24] litany of local policy decisions and
[34:26] enforcement decisions that all flow
[34:28] through the prosecutor's office. So, we
[34:30] know that this is an important decision.
[34:32] Uh, we make no bones about it that we we
[34:35] want to be your prosecutors. That's why
[34:36] we're here today. Uh we think we're the
[34:38] best firm uh the best candidates for the
[34:41] position. We think that we have the
[34:42] opportunity to offer strategic legal
[34:44] advice um both of course in general
[34:47] counsel work, but we're here tonight to
[34:48] talk about prosecution. Um and so we
[34:51] have the capability of doing that. It's
[34:53] been proven uh in a community that's
[34:55] just not all that far from here. Um and
[34:57] that has some of the same types of
[34:59] concerns and issues that you can see
[35:02] from the questions um that the council
[35:04] and the and the city management has put
[35:06] together. Those are some of the very
[35:07] same issues that we deal with uh day in
[35:10] and day out for uh other clients. Um and
[35:13] so with that, I'm I'm happy to get into
[35:16] uh whatever questions the council has
[35:18] and we look forward to the discussion.
[35:20] Okay. Um I'm going to ask you this
[35:22] before we start that is your firm able
[35:24] to provide prosecutional services for
[35:27] the 29th district criminal dockets every
[35:29] week Tuesday from 8:00 a.m. noon and one
[35:32] Monday a month at 8:00 a.m. noon to
[35:34] noon. uh in jury trials that are held on
[35:37] Thursdays or Fridays when necessary. Uh
[35:40] is it imperative that our city's legal
[35:43] representation it is imperative that our
[35:45] city's legal representation be able to
[35:47] offer sufficient staffing to cover these
[35:50] dockets? Is that an issue?
[35:51] >> That's not an issue at all. Um in fact,
[35:53] I I actually think that um probably
[35:56] between Jackie and Shawn uh there would
[35:59] almost be 100% coverage just with those
[36:02] two attorneys. Um but again to the
[36:04] extent that it's necessary, we've have
[36:06] two or three other people that would be
[36:08] able to step in um sort of on a uh I
[36:11] would say not necessarily a regular
[36:12] basis, but if necessary, they would be
[36:14] able to step in as well.
[36:15] >> Okay. Okay. Um
[36:19] Councilwoman Lawrence, do you want to
[36:21] start us off and just tell us the number
[36:23] of questions so we can all keep track?
[36:26] >> Okay,
[36:30] hang on for a second. Let me find my uh
[36:33] bearings here.
[36:49] How many cases have you represented? Oh,
[36:51] I'm sorry. It's question 10.
[36:54] How many cases have you represented with
[36:56] a municipality regarding environmental
[36:59] violations such as air quality, fugitive
[37:02] dust, geotechnical reports, and various
[37:04] soil contamination testing?
[37:08] Did you go to trial and what were the
[37:09] outcomes?
[37:11] >> So, this is uh this is an interesting
[37:13] question. Um I I guess the first thing
[37:16] I'd say is that the firm uh myself and attorney Stephen J. Brown um along
[37:22] with attorneys from Wayne County uh
[37:24] litigated through trial uh the Van Beern
[37:26] Township hazardous materials landfill
[37:28] case. Uh we won that case and and we're
[37:31] up on appeal now. Um so we have
[37:34] experience with that. We also have
[37:35] experience dealing with regulated
[37:37] industry generally. So uh representing a
[37:40] wastewater authority for example and
[37:42] it's NPDS permitting um or different
[37:44] sorts of of permitting that may be
[37:46] required. And similarly with private
[37:48] industry uh with respect to the various
[37:51] permits that they need from
[37:52] environmental companies and things like
[37:54] that. Um the reason I found it to be an
[37:57] interesting question uh is that I think
[38:00] so so yeah to be clear we have
[38:02] experience in that regard. Um
[38:05] it's not necessarily something that I
[38:06] would typically think of as like a
[38:08] district court prosecution function. I
[38:10] mean it's something we'd be happy to do
[38:11] in a service that we're uh qualified to
[38:13] provide. Um but it it strikes me as uh
[38:16] as a little bit of of an odd uh practice
[38:19] area for your typical prosecutor. Um I
[38:22] could certainly imagine contexts where
[38:24] it would be relevant. Say for example in
[38:26] the zoning context or perhaps local
[38:28] ordinances uh regarding maybe
[38:30] sedimentation control or uh the local
[38:33] you know wastewater public sanitary
[38:35] sewer system. Um that's certainly
[38:37] something we can do and and we have the
[38:38] capability for though. I have to say,
[38:41] oh, sorry, go ahead. With respect to, I
[38:43] mean, I guess a sort of a branch off of
[38:45] that is we deal with uh ordinance
[38:49] violations in blight and zoning and um
[38:54] that type of uh of a case regularly, uh
[38:58] daily, I'd say. Um we work very closely
[39:01] with the ordinance department. Um our
[39:03] main goal, obviously, uh the city's main
[39:06] goal is compliance. Um, so we try to
[39:10] work with the city uh the defendant
[39:14] being charged with how to best uh go
[39:17] about the goal of compliance, however
[39:19] that may be. Uh, we know that some
[39:21] people are just not going to comply,
[39:23] which is fine. They have the right to
[39:24] have a trial and we do a jury trial and
[39:27] present the evidence that we have um in
[39:30] front of a jury and then the jury
[39:31] decides. So, we understand that not
[39:34] everybody is going to comply or wants
[39:36] to. And in that sense, we'll just do a
[39:38] trial, let the jury decide.
[39:40] >> Yeah. And I would say lastly, just to
[39:41] wrap that uh question up, there's also a
[39:44] variety of civil and administrative
[39:46] procedures that may be more appropriate
[39:49] for um uh that type of environmental
[39:53] related issue. Um so for example a
[39:56] public nuisance case or perhaps um a
[39:59] case related to uh fire protection
[40:02] because the fire protection code has
[40:03] some uh elements of it that relate to
[40:05] hazardous materials and things of that
[40:07] nature. Um so we would be to the extent
[40:10] an issue like that came our way in a
[40:11] prosecution role I think we would be
[40:13] looking at what the best way is to
[40:15] tackle it with the ultimate goal of
[40:17] compliance and and cost recovery to the
[40:19] extent the city uh has has suffered
[40:21] loss.
[40:22] >> Okay. you said something I just want to
[40:25] piggy back off of that. So when you're
[40:27] dealing with try people are you're
[40:30] trying to get compliance that's really
[40:32] out the ultimate goal. How long do you
[40:34] recommend you go working on compliance
[40:38] before you say no this is enough we need
[40:40] to move this forward?
[40:42] >> Um I think it's really case by case
[40:44] basis honestly every defendant's
[40:46] different every charge is different.
[40:47] Every circumstance is different right?
[40:49] So, we um what we'll do is is if it's a
[40:53] it's an emergency situation, the city um
[40:57] the ordinance department sees that it's a public safety issue uh and it
[41:02] needs to be addressed quickly. Um
[41:04] usually by the time that the ordinance
[41:06] officer writes the ticket and I see it
[41:09] at the court, they've already tried uh
[41:11] talking to the person, trying to get
[41:13] compliance. Let's see if we can work on
[41:15] this with you. And if that's not
[41:17] happening, they get the ticket. So by
[41:19] the time I see it at that point at the court level, they've already
[41:23] gotten some opportunities, if it's not a
[41:26] matter of extreme safety or hazardous
[41:28] issues, I might give them an adjournment
[41:30] a couple times uh two weeks or a month
[41:33] or so. Um if it's something that's just
[41:35] really not going to happen, uh because
[41:37] either they can't do it or won't do it.
[41:40] Um then at that point, again, that's
[41:42] where you say, do you want a bench trial
[41:44] or do you want a jury trial? Um and then
[41:48] again if it's if we have strength of
[41:50] evidence if we have all all if we have
[41:52] all the evidence that we need to move
[41:53] forward at that point in time we just do
[41:56] the trial and you know I think dragging
[41:59] it on for months and months at a time is
[42:01] not good for anybody. Everyone gets
[42:02] frustrated by that and then at that
[42:04] point if that person's found guilty then
[42:06] it's up to the judge to decide what to
[42:08] do. Uh if it's a if it's a criminal case
[42:11] if it's a civil case you know that's
[42:13] another story. Uh, but if we're talking
[42:15] about a misdemeanor that's in front of
[42:17] Judge Olirri and the person's found
[42:19] guilty, then the then the sentencing is
[42:21] up to her.
[42:23] >> Okay. Councilwas,
[42:27] » let's stay on that vein then. Go with
[42:29] number 12. Um, what experience do you
[42:32] have? Do you have any experience with um
[42:34] habitual offenders andor difficult,
[42:38] mentally ill or retaliatory uh
[42:41] violators?
[42:42] >> We do. Yes. I I'd have to say for me um
[42:45] in all the years I I represented uh uh
[42:49] defendants as a court-appointed lawyer,
[42:51] I I I ran through my my share of
[42:53] difficult people. Uh and now as a
[42:56] prosecutor, same um we [snorts] just I
[42:59] just try to treat everybody with
[43:00] respect. Um uh but firmness. I treat
[43:03] everybody the same. I offer the same
[43:06] plea deal. Not because I you know that
[43:08] you've done or said X about me. The plea
[43:10] deal is the same. I don't take things
[43:12] personal. Um, and I just try to remain
[43:16] as professional as I possibly can. If
[43:18] the person doesn't want to work out any
[43:20] kind of resolution that might be uh be
[43:23] able to resolve the case for example
[43:26] then again I done all I can and I I will
[43:29] we'll just ask for a trial and then then
[43:31] the if I have the evidence to move
[43:33] forward five witnesses and strength of
[43:35] case at that point in time we just set
[43:38] it for a trial and then the judge
[43:39] decides um or a jury. Um, but I I guess
[43:43] what I how I feel about that is is it it
[43:46] kind of comes with a job and um, you
[43:49] know, we just try to treat everybody
[43:51] with respect and do our job. I just want
[43:53] to be professional.
[43:55] >> There's a number of instances where we
[43:57] run into people who have, you know,
[43:59] either mental health issues or they're
[44:01] just, you know, vindic vindictive or
[44:03] something like this. And uh I think
[44:06] there's something to be said for the
[44:07] level of experience that we have that
[44:09] Jackie has in particular over all these
[44:11] years of of dealing with uh criminal
[44:14] defendants both and believe it or not as
[44:16] the defense attorney sometimes you've
[44:18] almost got a harder job dealing with
[44:19] your client trying to get them to be
[44:20] reasonable you know and those sorts of
[44:22] things. So I have 100% confidence in
[44:24] Jackie in that regard. Um but she's
[44:27] absolutely right. It does come with the
[44:28] territory. It's something that uh in a
[44:30] community that's really not all that far
[44:32] away uh and in a court that's uh quite a
[44:34] bit busier, we run into all sorts of
[44:36] people over there. Um you know, and uh
[44:39] and a lot of times that means dealing
[44:41] with uh some people that may uh bounce
[44:43] over from from Wayne into Westland to do
[44:46] something that we have to deal with and vice versa. I'm sure you have uh
[44:49] some of our repeat offenders uh down
[44:51] here, too. Um, so there's been a number
[44:52] of different cases where we've had to
[44:54] deal with that. And, uh, my staff, uh,
[44:57] is always professional but firm in the
[44:59] way that they deal with these things
[45:01] because at the end of the day, we have a
[45:04] mission to accomplish, right? The
[45:06] mission is is as prosecutors, we're law
[45:08] enforcement uh, officials for the
[45:10] community that we serve. Um, and so that
[45:12] means that we're based on a variety of
[45:14] factors. We're looking for how do we
[45:17] accomplish the goals that are in the
[45:19] best interest of the city and its and
[45:21] its residents and it's really about
[45:23] justice which means holding people
[45:25] accountable.
[45:28] » Okay. Uh Mayor Proto,
[45:32] >> this has to do with process and any
[45:37] experience you may have had in this
[45:39] vein. Uh is there anything that you
[45:41] could or feel you could do as a city
[45:43] prosecutor to improve the efficiency of
[45:46] any city court operations?
[45:50] Yeah, I'll take that. Um, I think you I
[45:53] think these are tough questions and it's
[45:55] a good question. Uh, but it almost
[45:57] presupposes that we we come in with some
[45:59] preconceived notions about how things
[46:01] are done here, which we really don't
[46:02] have quite truthfully. I mean, uh, may
[46:04] have may have taken some time to flip
[46:06] through a couple of ordinances or the
[46:08] charter or something like that. Um, but right now we don't know what we
[46:12] don't know. And so I think there's an
[46:13] element of who are the people with boots
[46:16] on the ground uh that are that are
[46:18] trying to get I'll just use an example
[46:20] of blight, right? Who are the people
[46:22] with boots on the ground trying to gain
[46:23] compliance with blight? Presumably
[46:25] they're writing tickets or or seeking
[46:27] warrant requests. And what challenges
[46:30] are they having or seeing over at the
[46:32] court with these cases either not
[46:34] getting uh maybe they're getting
[46:36] dismissed for one reason or another um
[46:38] or there could be any number of
[46:39] different problems. And the same thing
[46:40] with the police department, right?
[46:42] they're out there boots on the ground uh
[46:44] and and maybe working on crime in a
[46:46] certain area or certain types of crime
[46:48] and so what are they seeing? What
[46:49] challenges are they experiencing or
[46:51] seeing firsthand uh at the court? And
[46:55] then what is city management seeing?
[46:57] What is the city council seeing? So I
[46:58] think in terms of process, it's really a
[47:00] question of how do we manage the
[47:02] transition and do the factf finding
[47:04] sufficient to be able to identify the
[47:07] areas that are ripe for improvement and
[47:09] the things that are working well. We're
[47:11] not trying to come in and change those
[47:12] things, right? Uh maybe at some point we
[47:15] identify additional efficiencies. I
[47:17] think the starting point is a little bit
[47:18] of triage. That's how I would approach
[47:20] that.
[47:23] >> Okay.
[47:24] Are there any matters you would or would
[47:27] not provide counsel to our police
[47:29] department on when you're when they're
[47:31] dealing with issues?
[47:34] >> No.
[47:35] >> Is a one- word answer. Okay.
[47:37] >> It's fine. I I I would say that I I
[47:40] speak to our police department on a
[47:42] daily basis about something or another.
[47:44] Um I uh do all of their new officer
[47:48] training um [clears throat] when they
[47:50] come in as new cadetses. Um I do um
[47:55] legal training, I'd say once a year at
[47:57] least for the full department on any
[47:59] kind of new legal updates or any kind of
[48:01] questions or issues I've been seeing
[48:03] over at the court. something that I
[48:04] would like them to focus on and improve
[48:06] on and maybe do some some work on. Um I
[48:10] talk to them regularly about um warrant
[48:13] requests and issues they may be having
[48:15] with cases. Um I would say like I said I they have my cell phone number. Most
[48:21] of them when I do new officer training,
[48:23] I give them my my cell phone number. If
[48:25] you ever had any issues or questions or
[48:26] anything as you're starting out, uh ask
[48:29] me directly. Um, and I'd say the whole
[48:32] detective bureau has my cell phone
[48:34] number in case there's ever a question
[48:35] about anything that they're working on
[48:36] and we talk on a on a regular basis. I'd
[48:38] say we have a very good relationship
[48:40] with our our police department.
[48:42] >> Okay. Uh, Councilwoman Lawrence,
[48:45] >> um, define discretion as an appeals to
[48:49] your role as a city prosecutor. How
[48:51] would you use this?
[48:55] So prosecutorial discretion,
[48:58] I think about with respect to that
[49:01] whether to charge,
[49:03] whether to make a plea deal,
[49:05] um, and how best to advocate for for
[49:10] justice, for victim restitution,
[49:13] uh, and and for the city's interests.
[49:16] So that's how I would define discretion.
[49:19] I I guess I'd ask Jackie to talk a
[49:21] little bit about the factors that go
[49:23] into the use of discretion, but that's
[49:26] how I think about discretion is in terms
[49:28] of, you know, whether we're going to do
[49:30] option A or option B.
[49:33] >> So, I usually take into consideration
[49:35] the strength of the case. Um, do I have
[49:37] a good case to move forward? Um, that
[49:40] obviously has to do with evidence,
[49:42] witnesses, um, police report, uh,
[49:45] supporting documents. Um, so do I have
[49:48] enough evidences first? I'm not gonna I
[49:50] don't prosecute uh to win. I'm not here
[49:53] to keep track of wins and losses or how
[49:56] many people I prosecute in a day. Um, as Brandon already said, it's is to see
[50:01] that justice is served. I mean, as a as
[50:03] a quick sentence, but that is what it
[50:05] is. I take that very seriously. Um, what
[50:09] does the victim want to do with the
[50:10] case? Um, I always take that in
[50:12] consideration. If it's a crime of the
[50:13] victim, I have discussions with that
[50:16] person. How do you want to proceed? We
[50:18] we're a team. I represent the city. Uh
[50:20] however, if you know, I take into
[50:22] consideration your interests, your
[50:24] concerns. What do you want to happen
[50:25] with the case and the public safety? Um
[50:28] so sometimes if a victim doesn't want to
[50:31] proceed, I and I decide, well, this is,
[50:35] you know, I'm I'm understand what you're feeling. However, you know,
[50:39] this person or say this person has a
[50:42] trial that was involved. I I have to be
[50:44] I have to look out for that person if
[50:46] even if you don't really want to. So I
[50:50] take into consideration public safety,
[50:52] welfare, the city's interests, all these
[50:55] things into trying to decide how to
[50:56] handle a case. And again, it's a
[50:58] case-byase basis and and I take into
[51:01] those factors every case that I proceed
[51:03] on or not.
[51:05] I think I want to say one more thing
[51:06] about that. Um, which is that we also
[51:10] look at the compliance likelihood,
[51:13] right? And the deterrent effect of the
[51:15] decisions that we make. Um, so for a
[51:18] first I mean I'm and I'm just not to use
[51:20] any specific examples, but you've got a
[51:22] first-time offender who's likely not to
[51:24] reaffend again. Um, you know, maybe that
[51:27] is a case that makes sense uh to have a
[51:30] plea deal of a certain sort. Uh but
[51:32] maybe that same deal doesn't really make
[51:34] sense for somebody who's running around
[51:35] town uh causing all kinds of problems
[51:38] and seems to show no uh concern for
[51:41] amending their behavior. Right? So I
[51:44] think I think you know those are the
[51:45] kinds of things that we would be taking
[51:47] into consideration and thinking about
[51:49] when exercising uh discretion.
[51:53] >> Okay. Councilwoman was
[51:56] >> can I ask one not on here?
[51:58] >> Yeah. You just got to be able to do do
[52:00] it again later. You just got to remember
[52:02] what it is the question for later.
[52:05] >> You have to do the same question for
[52:06] everybody. This thing.
[52:08] >> Oh, okay. Well, I want to ask this
[52:10] question to everybody.
[52:11] >> Just write just make sure you can do it
[52:12] again. That's all.
[52:15] >> How familiar are you with the cases we
[52:19] currently have going on?
[52:22] >> We have some familiarity. Um we don't I
[52:26] mean I I've you know I understand that
[52:29] there's certain things going on in town
[52:30] right now. Um a number of prosay
[52:33] lawsuits for example uh there's even
[52:35] some cases that have made their way into
[52:37] the 18th district court uh for a variety
[52:39] of reasons um related to the city of
[52:41] Wayne. Uh so we have some familiarity.
[52:43] Uh but I have not uh done a deep dive
[52:46] into the situation to you know frankly
[52:49] because it's not right part of my
[52:51] current role. But but at some level
[52:53] obviously we would need to understand
[52:54] that.
[52:56] >> Just making sure that we're aware of
[52:58] what you're getting your feet into. You
[53:00] know what I mean? That's you know
[53:01] >> you have an understanding of this. Yes.
[53:03] Thank you.
[53:04] >> Okay.
[53:04] >> A fair a fair comment [snorts] though.
[53:06] >> Okay.
[53:07] >> Mor prom.
[53:09] >> This question has se this question has
[53:12] several parts in it and they're going to
[53:14] be yes or no.
[53:16] >> They're related to um
[53:19] uh interpreting and enforcing certain
[53:21] codes.
[53:22] uh for reasons of things that are going
[53:24] on right now. So, regular business, but
[53:26] there are plans in the city to um uh
[53:29] continue with modernization. So, it it
[53:31] your assistance in that case will be and
[53:34] that that part of it will most likely
[53:37] would most likely be more important. So,
[53:39] it's just a yes or no. Uh do you have
[53:41] experience interpreting and enforcing
[53:44] the following codes? Right. And I'll do one at a time if that's okay. We
[53:47] don't need to explain Shar.
[53:49] >> Please. Yes. The Michigan Building Code,
[53:51] >> yes.
[53:52] >> Residential code,
[53:53] >> yes.
[53:54] >> Mechanical code,
[53:55] >> yes.
[53:55] >> Plumbing code,
[53:56] >> yes.
[53:57] >> Electrical code,
[53:58] >> yes.
[53:58] >> Fire code,
[53:59] >> yes.
[54:00] >> Property manage maintenance code.
[54:02] >> Yes.
[54:03] >> And thank you very much.
[54:06] >> Okay.
[54:08] >> Um, what do you think your role is as uh
[54:12] the city prosecutor?
[54:19] So I compare the role in some sense,
[54:22] right? You've got a county prosecutor.
[54:23] They're like the chief law enforcement
[54:24] official in the county. Um so you've got
[54:28] a difference in scale, right? And
[54:30] there's some difference in the types of
[54:32] things that a city prosecutor can do
[54:33] versus what a county prosecutor can do.
[54:36] But it's a law enforcement position.
[54:39] Basically, it's a it's a uh it's a
[54:42] position where
[54:44] based on what the charter says, I I
[54:46] assume it's similar to other city
[54:47] charters, but uh the city attorney or
[54:49] the city prosecutor in this case is
[54:51] responsible for uh enforcement of the
[54:54] laws of the city.
[54:57] >> Jackie, did you want to add to that or
[54:59] >> No, I just that I mean to bottom line it
[55:01] that's exactly the rule. Um, of course
[55:04] there's there's different subsections to
[55:06] it. Um, that I kind of covered with
[55:08] respect to the the question on
[55:10] discretion. Um, but as part of being a
[55:13] prosecutor in the city, you have to use
[55:16] discretion on a daily basis. Um, you
[55:19] also have to understand that that
[55:21] because you're you're a law enforcement
[55:23] agent that that comes with certain
[55:25] powers. Uh, and I'm very mindful of
[55:28] that. Um, I know that Brandon is too. So
[55:32] using discretion is important. Um making
[55:35] sure that that everyone's rights are
[55:37] equally um concerned and um
[55:42] basically like I said to see that
[55:43] justice is done and that's a that's a
[55:45] simple way of saying it but I do every
[55:47] day but when I go to work that's that's
[55:49] the way I feel and I've been doing that
[55:51] for lots of years but I keep that in my
[55:53] mind every time I'm there.
[55:56] Now, when if you were to be hired, would
[55:58] you come in and then look at what do we
[56:00] have and if you see something that's
[56:02] problem, would you make it aware or how
[56:04] you how do you normally handle that?
[56:07] >> Absolutely.
[56:08] >> When you're going through with all that
[56:10] stuff, you know.
[56:10] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're I mean, we're
[56:11] constantly having conversations with
[56:13] client representatives about different
[56:15] issues or coming up with ideas maybe for
[56:18] ordinances as an example. um you know
[56:20] that hey maybe you know we're seeing
[56:22] some of this maybe that means we should
[56:24] change this ordinance right in order to
[56:26] cover that activity
[56:28] >> it's really driven by the people who are
[56:30] writing the tickets and then what you
[56:32] see at court I mean we just identified
[56:35] an issue with an ordinance that we've
[56:36] had on the books forever and somebody
[56:40] noticed that there was a comma missing
[56:42] and it really changed the way that you
[56:44] read the whole ordinance and so that's a
[56:48] you know oh Okay. Well, that's something
[56:50] that's been in the books for a long
[56:51] time, but it's something that was
[56:53] brought up recently that okay, now we
[56:56] got to change the way we look at that
[56:57] and change the and possibly change the
[56:59] ordinance. So, it's it's driven by what
[57:01] you see like like Brandon already
[57:03] indicated, boots on the ground. And so,
[57:05] having a meeting with those people that
[57:07] what and then seeing what happens at the
[57:09] court level will start that process.
[57:12] We'll be able to see where the holes are
[57:14] to try to fill them. And just to be
[57:16] clear, we're not we're not like running
[57:17] around out there just changing
[57:19] ordinances like this. These are things
[57:21] there's a chain of command involved in
[57:22] it, right?
[57:24] So I just don't want I don't want to
[57:25] give the misimpression that we're you
[57:27] know talking to patrol officers and then
[57:28] writing up ordinances without sort of
[57:30] going through proper channels.
[57:32] >> No, but I I'm figuring you're you're
[57:34] prosecuting you see it and if there's a
[57:35] problem that
[57:36] >> we we've dealt with different things,
[57:38] people coming and having a question
[57:39] about something and we found out, oh,
[57:41] that got changed. Things change.
[57:44] you have something in writing one way
[57:46] and it you find out it's different. It
[57:48] gets changed at the federal level or
[57:50] state level and it it voids something or
[57:52] whatever.
[57:53] >> Sure. Yeah. State laws change and then
[57:54] it affects the way the ordinances are
[57:56] and and we're we're mindful of that too.
[57:58] Yeah.
[57:59] >> Okay.
[58:00] >> Our clock is off. I know that. But so at
[58:03] this point, let you just g give us uh
[58:06] your your final push or whatever you
[58:09] want to call it and uh what you want to
[58:12] anything questions you have for us or
[58:13] anything else you wanted to say.
[58:15] >> Sure. Um
[58:18] I guess I guess by way of question
[58:21] is
[58:24] can this be a collaborative role? I mean
[58:26] or is it just show up to court and deal
[58:28] with the tickets that you get? I mean we
[58:30] can do either, right? Obviously, I
[58:31] prefer a more collaborative kind of
[58:33] process where we're able to provide
[58:35] value that, you know, is not just
[58:37] limited to uh, you know, you show up to
[58:39] court and then you never see the client.
[58:41] Um, I don't know what's been the
[58:43] experience of city management or city
[58:45] council in that regard, but those are
[58:46] things I'd be interested in. Even if you
[58:48] can't answer today, that's okay, but
[58:49] yeah, those are things I'd be interested
[58:50] in having more discussions about.
[58:52] >> So, you prefer a more collaborative role
[58:54] with the city is what you're saying?
[58:57] >> Yes, absolutely.
[58:58] >> Okay. And I mentioned this last time,
[59:00] um, and I know we're not here to talk
[59:02] about general counsel, and last time we
[59:03] weren't there to talk about prosecution,
[59:06] but I just can't stress enough that I
[59:08] see such a such an incredible value in
[59:12] having uh the general counsel function
[59:14] and the prosecution function under one
[59:17] uh sort of roof, right? Because just
[59:19] like some of the questions that we
[59:20] talked about, uh, for example, all those
[59:22] different building codes and mechanical
[59:24] codes and things like that, those can be
[59:26] criminal or or or civil infraction type
[59:28] violations that may get enforced through
[59:30] the district court. Those also could be
[59:33] problems that have to be addressed
[59:35] civily through something like a public
[59:36] nuisance claim. Um, and if you don't
[59:39] have a general counsel that's kind of
[59:41] doing the civil stuff and a prosecutor
[59:43] that's kind of dealing with the criminal
[59:45] stuff and they're not talking to each
[59:46] other, it just strikes me that there
[59:48] could be there could be real value to
[59:50] the collaboration that can occur when
[59:52] you have uh those sort of functions
[59:54] combined.
[59:56] >> Okay.
[59:58] Anything else from council?
[1:00:00] >> I won't take that personally. Uh
[1:00:02] laughing at me, I'm sure, but [laughter]
[1:00:06] she's trying to Go ahead.
[1:00:08] >> Um and and then just the closing thought
[1:00:10] I would share I suppose is just our
[1:00:12] again um not to sound like a broken
[1:00:14] record but just our focus on community.
[1:00:16] Um you know that if we're if we're
[1:00:20] retained and maybe even if we're not
[1:00:21] retained quite frankly I'm in the area
[1:00:22] enough um but you're going to see us in your
[1:00:25] community. You're going to see us at
[1:00:27] city events, uh, you know, police
[1:00:29] fundraisers to the extent you have them,
[1:00:31] chamber events, those sorts of things
[1:00:33] because that's the type of people that
[1:00:34] we are and those are the relationships
[1:00:36] that we want to have with our clients,
[1:00:37] right? Where maybe you start a client
[1:00:39] and and you sort of develop a
[1:00:41] professional relationship and maybe even
[1:00:43] over time um, it becomes closer.
[1:00:46] >> Okay. Well, we appreciate you coming out
[1:00:48] tonight.
[1:00:49] >> Well, thank you very much for having us.
[1:00:50] We, you know, hope to see the next phase
[1:00:53] of the process.
[1:00:53] >> Thank you for being last first. Yeah.
[1:00:56] >> Thank you.
[1:00:59] >> Okay, we're going to take a five minute
[1:01:00] break.
[1:04:46] Okay, we're off to the next one. This is
[1:04:49] um G Marco Mullins and Horton. Uh if you
[1:04:53] want to introduce yourself to begin
[1:04:55] with. Uh good afternoon, mayor, mayor
[1:04:57] promp council, city manager, city clerk,
[1:05:01] chief. Uh my name is Carrie Miller. Um
[1:05:04] and I am your current city prosecutor.
[1:05:08] So it's very nice to see you guys. Um
[1:05:10] I'm uh with GM Marco Mullins and Horton.
[1:05:13] I've been with them for 10 years. I
[1:05:16] believe I've been your city prosecutor
[1:05:18] for eight, maybe nine. um been through
[1:05:23] two judges, four building officials,
[1:05:27] three city managers,
[1:05:30] two judges, I say that. Um so yeah, two
[1:05:34] chiefs of police and two court
[1:05:38] administrators,
[1:05:39] some different faces on council. Um but
[1:05:42] it's nice to see you all tonight. So
[1:05:45] that's uh that's me.
[1:05:48] >> Okay. Um,
[1:05:51] you want to give us some of your
[1:05:52] professional bio years of relevant
[1:05:54] experience, which you just did. Um,
[1:05:58] >> how many other municipalities you
[1:06:00] currently serve, availability per the
[1:06:01] judge's request, and backup when
[1:06:04] necessary, and hourly rate.
[1:06:05] >> Sure. which
[1:06:06] >> um so I became a lawyer in 2004
[1:06:11] and I immediately started clerking for a
[1:06:14] judge at circuit court in Oakland County
[1:06:16] who was uh Ed Snaznik who is an amazing
[1:06:19] human being who passed away a couple
[1:06:21] years ago which is really unfortunate
[1:06:22] because he left quite a mark on the
[1:06:24] legal profession. Um when I was working
[1:06:26] for him he had been a prosecutor and
[1:06:29] then he became a judge at the 48th
[1:06:31] district court and then circuit court.
[1:06:32] So, um, he inspired me to go into
[1:06:35] prosecution. Criminal law was my
[1:06:37] favorite class in law school. So, I went
[1:06:40] right from clerking into prosecution in
[1:06:43] 2006 and have done nothing else for 20
[1:06:47] years um, in law but that. Um, so I went
[1:06:50] to the Oakland County Prosecutor's
[1:06:52] Office where I was at for 15 years. I
[1:06:55] started out in the warrants division and
[1:06:58] worked all the way up to um, felony
[1:07:00] court. um tried drug cases, child abuse
[1:07:04] cases, juvenile cases, uh general cases,
[1:07:07] wrote warrants on everything. I was in
[1:07:09] the forfeite division for quite some
[1:07:11] time. Um so I did that for um a long
[1:07:15] time and then I decided that I would go
[1:07:18] into private practice. Was lucky enough
[1:07:20] to be hired by uh GMH
[1:07:23] in 2018 and so I started there and um my
[1:07:28] first big client there was the city of
[1:07:30] Pontiac um which was was pretty large
[1:07:33] and I was used to that one because that
[1:07:35] was in Oakland County. So then um I
[1:07:38] started to get contracts outside of
[1:07:40] Oakland County and got to practice in
[1:07:42] Wayne County for the first time which
[1:07:43] was um a whole new world and uh one of
[1:07:47] my first ones was the city of Wayne. Uh
[1:07:49] so I was here before COVID. Um, so that
[1:07:53] was really interesting and Judge Mack
[1:07:55] was here and we were in person and
[1:07:57] everything was in person and then um,
[1:08:00] COVID happened and I was at that time I
[1:08:03] was prosecuting for Redford for Wayne
[1:08:07] uh, Belleville Pontiac and so we had to
[1:08:11] pivot and uh, take COVID and learn how
[1:08:15] to do court via Zoom and a whole
[1:08:18] different world and changing everything
[1:08:20] from meeting one-on-one with people to
[1:08:23] um virtually and learning how to work
[1:08:26] Zoom. At that time we were doing trials
[1:08:29] by Zoom and um just a whole different
[1:08:32] world from the practice that I had had
[1:08:34] for such a long time. And then um
[1:08:38] transitioning back into now kind of like
[1:08:40] a quasi in-person Zoom reality that
[1:08:44] we're in now where some things are um
[1:08:46] but we're back in the courtroom. So, um,
[1:08:49] currently right now, uh, I'm doing the
[1:08:51] city of Wayne and then, um, I am doing
[1:08:55] Ly Gorian, uh, Keo Harbor,
[1:08:59] Gross Point,
[1:09:01] and, uh, Redford. I back up Redford.
[1:09:06] My firm uh, has a whole list of other
[1:09:10] um, municipalities. I think um you're
[1:09:13] familiar with a lot of them from knowing
[1:09:15] us for as long as you have. Um but we're
[1:09:18] general counsel for quite a long list.
[1:09:20] And uh we also do prosecutions for
[1:09:24] Seline and uh Northville. I think I
[1:09:28] think that's our current full list, but
[1:09:30] I I may be leaving out a prosecution
[1:09:32] docket.
[1:09:36] » Okay.
[1:09:37] And I I I know the answer. I'm going to
[1:09:39] ask you the question because I got to
[1:09:40] ask everybody the same questions. So, if
[1:09:43] your firm uh was able to provide
[1:09:45] prosecutional services uh for the 29th
[1:09:48] District Criminal Dockets every two a
[1:09:51] week, Tuesday from 8:00 a.m. to noon and
[1:09:53] one Monday a month at 8:00 a.m. noon to
[1:09:56] noon. Um and jury trials are held on
[1:09:59] Thursdays or Fridays when necessary.
[1:10:02] It's imperative that our city's legal
[1:10:04] representation be able to offer
[1:10:06] sufficient staffing to cover these
[1:10:07] dockets that you're you're able to do
[1:10:10] all that.
[1:10:10] >> Yeah, there's two bench trial dockets on
[1:10:12] Thursday afternoons a month as well. Uh,
[1:10:15] one of them is Zoom and one of them is
[1:10:16] in person. So, uh, yeah, they're in my
[1:10:19] schedule.
[1:10:20] >> Okay.
[1:10:22] Uh, Councilwoman Lawrence
[1:10:26] and please let's just try to stay we
[1:10:29] want to stay with the same questions for
[1:10:30] everybody to be in the same
[1:10:35] >> All right.
[1:10:37] Um, define discretion as it appeals to
[1:10:39] your role as a city prosecutor. How
[1:10:42] would you use this discretion?
[1:10:44] >> So I think um as a role of a prosecutor
[1:10:47] uh ethics is the most important thing is
[1:10:50] being ethical. So, you have to use
[1:10:54] discretion. Um, one of the biggest
[1:10:57] things that I do is review warrants and
[1:11:00] you've got to look at them and decide
[1:11:03] whether or not there's probable cause.
[1:11:05] But when I'm looking at a warrant, I
[1:11:07] actually kind of go a little further and
[1:11:09] try to decide if if I really can try it
[1:11:13] beyond a reasonable doubt. I mean, I you
[1:11:15] only need a probable cause to write it,
[1:11:17] but um and if there isn't, I have no
[1:11:20] problem denying a warrant, and I I will
[1:11:24] deny a warrant, and I and I will happily
[1:11:26] talk to a police officer about why.
[1:11:28] Sometimes, um there's even an
[1:11:29] educational aspect to that. Um as far as
[1:11:33] in the courtroom goes, uh discretion is
[1:11:36] a big part of the job. You know what,
[1:11:38] you have to take it's case by case. Um,
[1:11:41] which I think you're going to hear from
[1:11:42] any good lawyer or good prosecutor
[1:11:44] because that's the truth. Um, but you
[1:11:46] have to take every every case as it is
[1:11:50] and make a decision whether you've got
[1:11:52] good facts and um how you want to
[1:11:55] approach it because there's a lot of
[1:11:57] different ways to come come at a
[1:11:59] criminal case.
[1:12:00] >> Thank you. supposed to ask the same
[1:12:03] question, John.
[1:12:04] >> Yes,
[1:12:05] >> I got them written down.
[1:12:06] >> I think mine was number 12, right? All
[1:12:08] right. Let's see. Number 11.
[1:12:10] >> Yep.
[1:12:11] >> All right.
[1:12:17] Can you can you provide a
[1:12:20] breakdown of your experience with
[1:12:21] residential, commercial, industrial
[1:12:23] compliance, such as occupying buildings
[1:12:26] without a CFO and inspections right to
[1:12:29] entry?
[1:12:30] >> Yeah. So, that's actually really
[1:12:32] interesting because I um that was brand
[1:12:34] new for me when I left the prosecutor's
[1:12:36] office. When I was at the prosecutor's
[1:12:38] office, uh it was only criminal law that
[1:12:41] we did. And then when I when I did
[1:12:42] forfeite, it was quasi civil and
[1:12:44] criminal, but it was all drugrelated. Um
[1:12:47] so, I had not
[1:12:50] worked with building codes at all except
[1:12:53] for, you know, things at my own house
[1:12:55] and trying to get permits and things
[1:12:57] like that. Um, so it was a really big
[1:13:00] education to start to learn about um the
[1:13:03] building codes and things like that. But
[1:13:05] in every single one of the municipal
[1:13:07] contracts that we have, there's a
[1:13:09] building aspect to them. So, I've become
[1:13:12] a lot more comfortable um over the years
[1:13:14] in in understanding that, working with
[1:13:17] the building officials, um understanding
[1:13:19] the building code, understanding kind of
[1:13:22] the difference, you know, um in a
[1:13:24] criminal case, you want um there's a
[1:13:27] punitive aspect to it, there's a
[1:13:28] punishment aspect to it, you know, there
[1:13:30] really is. And in a building department
[1:13:33] case, it's really
[1:13:36] more of a compliance aspect, you know,
[1:13:39] and you're looking for them to to com to
[1:13:41] comply and come into code. Um, I mean, I
[1:13:45] guess sometimes there could be a, you
[1:13:46] know, a punishment if someone is really
[1:13:47] egregious or doing something terrible,
[1:13:49] but it's just something different. Um,
[1:13:51] so it was some uh a a big education, but
[1:13:54] I think I've over the last 10 years
[1:13:57] become very very comfortable working
[1:13:59] with the building department and
[1:14:00] building codes.
[1:14:04] » At what point when you're looking at
[1:14:06] compliance do you decide that it you
[1:14:08] need to go further because they're not
[1:14:10] complying? What what's the what's the
[1:14:12] parameter? How long do you wait on stuff
[1:14:14] like that? So, I think it depends on how
[1:14:17] serious of a situation obviously you're
[1:14:20] dealing with, you know. So, in a
[1:14:21] building department case, you can have
[1:14:23] everything from um a a very very
[1:14:26] dangerous building, which we all know
[1:14:28] we've had, um to somebody who's not
[1:14:31] cutting their grass or they're not
[1:14:33] bringing in their garbage cans and
[1:14:35] everything in between. So, you really
[1:14:37] have to take a look at what you're
[1:14:39] dealing with. Um, at first I think
[1:14:41] compliance is is the first step no
[1:14:45] matter what, you know, and and can they
[1:14:46] is it possible? Can they even come into
[1:14:48] compliance? Is that even something that
[1:14:50] we can talk about? Because compliance
[1:14:52] could be $5 million, but someone may
[1:14:56] actually have that. Um, so initially
[1:14:59] definitely compliance. Um, the way that
[1:15:02] I handle most building cases is um to do
[1:15:06] uh what's called a plea under
[1:15:08] advisement. And so the defendant would
[1:15:11] admit responsibility that they did
[1:15:13] indeed commit that building code
[1:15:15] violation and then they would get a
[1:15:17] certain amount of time to come into
[1:15:19] compliance and they would have review
[1:15:21] hearings um that we would keep an eye on
[1:15:24] them and then that criminal charge
[1:15:25] because as you guys know most of your
[1:15:27] cases um the building codes are still
[1:15:31] misdemeanors and a lot of cities have
[1:15:33] moved towards municipal civil
[1:15:35] infractions but in Wayne the vast
[1:15:36] majority of them are misdemeanors. So,
[1:15:38] you actually have a criminal conviction
[1:15:41] that you can hang over people's heads.
[1:15:42] And people care about that. You know,
[1:15:44] he'll stand in the way of them getting
[1:15:45] jobs or um being able to be, you know,
[1:15:48] going to their children's school, things
[1:15:49] like that. So, I can kind of hold that
[1:15:52] over their head and keep that going. And
[1:15:55] then there's fines and costs that are
[1:15:57] associated with that and keep their case
[1:15:59] open. So, that's usually my number one
[1:16:02] way of handling a building department
[1:16:03] case. Um, sometimes you can dismiss it
[1:16:06] uh earlier if they come like a grass
[1:16:08] case, like a long grass case. If they
[1:16:10] come in and they've cut their grass,
[1:16:12] maybe you could just do like a double
[1:16:13] parking fine for $180 and then just let
[1:16:17] them move on because they took care of
[1:16:19] it right away immediately. Um, obviously
[1:16:23] other cases are different. I mean, I've
[1:16:25] had trials on building department cases.
[1:16:28] I've done um administrative search
[1:16:30] warrants here on building department
[1:16:32] cases. Um, so
[1:16:35] sometimes you need to take it to a
[1:16:39] different level and we've done that here
[1:16:41] and I I have no problem doing that
[1:16:42] again.
[1:16:44] >> Okay. I may have missed it. You may have
[1:16:46] told me this. What is the hourly rate
[1:16:48] that you guys
[1:16:49] >> So we have not raised our rates since we
[1:16:52] first came in um eight or nine years ago
[1:16:56] I think. Not at all. Uh but we have
[1:16:58] suggested a a raise um with this with
[1:17:01] this uh bidding process to um $150 an
[1:17:06] hour. I think it was 125.
[1:17:08] >> Okay.
[1:17:09] Mayor Prom,
[1:17:17] » is there anything that you feel you
[1:17:21] could do as city prosecutor to improve
[1:17:23] the efficiency of city and court
[1:17:26] operations or interactions?
[1:17:30] » Oh, that's a good question. Um, so
[1:17:34] you know, there there's an efficiency
[1:17:37] just an efficiency thing. you know, it's
[1:17:39] a communication. Um, the dockets are
[1:17:42] they're they're pretty big. Uh, all
[1:17:44] things considered, there's usually
[1:17:46] somewhere like I figured I prosecuting
[1:17:48] around 2,000 to 3,000 cases monthly, I
[1:17:52] believe, like everything all together.
[1:17:54] Um, so, you know, you got to do a lot of
[1:17:57] preparation work. Um, which I do. Uh, be
[1:18:02] uh try to get things done in advance, be
[1:18:04] communicating with the clerks, uh, be on
[1:18:07] time. um just a lot of communication,
[1:18:09] but the court here is a very wellrun
[1:18:13] court. Um the staff is excellent. Uh the
[1:18:16] clerks are really good, the court
[1:18:17] administrator is great. Um so they they
[1:18:20] get me what I need. Um so as far as the
[1:18:23] court goes as the prosecutor, um it's
[1:18:26] just a matter of prepping the docket in
[1:18:29] advance and sending that out and um I do
[1:18:33] that a week in advance every every week.
[1:18:35] So,
[1:18:37] >> thank you.
[1:18:37] >> Yeah.
[1:18:38] >> Okay. Are there any matters uh you would
[1:18:42] or would not provide count um
[1:18:45] you would or would not provide counsel
[1:18:47] to the police department on?
[1:18:50] >> Absolutely none.
[1:18:53] >> Okay.
[1:18:55] Councilman Lawrence,
[1:18:58] >> how many cases have you represented with
[1:19:00] the municipality regarding environmental
[1:19:02] violations such as air quality, fugitive
[1:19:06] dust, geotechnical reports, and various
[1:19:09] soil contamination testing? Did you go
[1:19:12] to trial and what were the outcomes? Not
[1:19:15] too many. Um there's been uh some that
[1:19:19] have had some aspects to that. Um, none
[1:19:23] in none in Wayne that I can think of.
[1:19:25] And no, I have never gone to trial on
[1:19:27] one of those issues.
[1:19:31] » Okay. Uh, Councilwoman Was.
[1:19:37] >> Okay. This is going to be a twofer
[1:19:38] because I kind of screwed that up, John.
[1:19:40] Um, so since I know you are familiar
[1:19:43] with our current legal situations,
[1:19:46] what experience do you have with
[1:19:48] habitual offenders andor difficult latig
[1:19:51] latigious mentally ill or retaliatory
[1:19:55] violators?
[1:19:56] >> You know, when I was at um the Oakland
[1:19:58] County Prosecutor's Office, we had
[1:20:01] habitual felon felons a lot. Um, you
[1:20:04] would call them like a hab second, hab
[1:20:06] third, hab fourth because they were
[1:20:08] habitual. So, I mean, I have experience
[1:20:10] in dealing with habitual offenders that
[1:20:12] goes far back. Um, on a city level, it's different. You know, city
[1:20:19] prosecutions are very very different
[1:20:21] than than a county level in so many so
[1:20:23] many different ways. Um, because you're
[1:20:25] really part of the community in a
[1:20:28] different in a different way. Um, so
[1:20:32] I've become very familiar with uh
[1:20:34] specialty courts and mental health
[1:20:37] treatment courts. veterans courts, um
[1:20:40] those kind of courts that can really
[1:20:42] help people and and what they can do. Um
[1:20:46] and just how excellent they are. You
[1:20:49] know, the mental health court uh at at
[1:20:52] our court is is excellent and it's so
[1:20:55] impressive. And you know, we're involved
[1:20:56] in the veterans court in Redford, which
[1:20:59] is equally just an impressive um
[1:21:02] program. Uh as far as dealing with
[1:21:06] difficult defendants,
[1:21:09] um you know, it's part of the job and
[1:21:13] you just do it. You know, you do the job
[1:21:15] and you do it to the best of your
[1:21:17] ability and you treat them and everybody
[1:21:20] the same way that you would treat any
[1:21:22] other defendant, any other case. you
[1:21:25] know, I use the same discretion. Um, I
[1:21:27] try to be equally fair and reasonable.
[1:21:31] Um, and I think I am a very fair and
[1:21:33] reasonable prosecutor. Um, so I do the
[1:21:36] same thing, um, that I would with
[1:21:39] anybody else. Obviously, uh, it can be a
[1:21:43] challenge, you know. Um but yeah, you
[1:21:48] just got to keep doing the job and try
[1:21:50] to get a team with you to help you and
[1:21:53] um work together.
[1:21:56] >> Thank you.
[1:22:00] » Your pro.
[1:22:04] » This is a set of yes and uh no uh
[1:22:06] responses, right? One question is going
[1:22:08] to be all little things in there. And um
[1:22:11] so here we go. Uh do you have Uh, what
[1:22:15] experience? Okay, it's going to be yes
[1:22:17] or no. Uh, do you have uh experience
[1:22:19] interpreting and enforcing the following
[1:22:22] uh codes? Michigan building code?
[1:22:24] >> Yes.
[1:22:25] >> Residential code?
[1:22:27] >> Yes.
[1:22:27] >> Mechanical code?
[1:22:28] >> Yes.
[1:22:29] >> Plumbing code?
[1:22:30] >> Yes.
[1:22:31] >> Electrical code?
[1:22:32] >> Yes.
[1:22:32] >> Fire code?
[1:22:33] >> Yes.
[1:22:34] >> Property maintenance code?
[1:22:35] >> Yes.
[1:22:36] >> Thank you.
[1:22:38] >> Sure.
[1:22:40] >> Okay. So,
[1:22:43] what do you see or what do you think the
[1:22:46] role of the city prosecutor is?
[1:22:51] >> So, it's interesting because you're a
[1:22:54] lot of times as a city prosecutor,
[1:22:56] you're dealing with citizens. Um, it's
[1:22:59] not all, you know, horrible crimes or
[1:23:02] habitual. A lot of times it's uh traffic
[1:23:05] tickets and it's you know speeding
[1:23:08] tickets or like I said it's somebody who
[1:23:10] isn't taking out their trash or you know
[1:23:12] so you can really be like a face of the
[1:23:14] community and sort of get to uh know
[1:23:17] citizens and talk to people um be part
[1:23:21] of a community which I which I think is
[1:23:23] really important. Um but then you have
[1:23:25] the other level of a relationship with
[1:23:28] the police department which I really
[1:23:30] pride myself on. Um, you have an
[1:23:32] excellent police department here. Um,
[1:23:35] you have an excellent police chief,
[1:23:37] excellent lieutenants, um, an excellent
[1:23:40] deputy chief, amazing officers. Um, a
[1:23:43] lot of turnover, a lot of young officers
[1:23:45] that are coming in. Um, but I I pride
[1:23:48] myself on having a relationship because
[1:23:51] really another goal is safety of the
[1:23:53] community. And as a city prosecutor, you
[1:23:56] know, that's a boots on the ground kind
[1:23:58] of role is um you know, making sure that
[1:24:00] people are are safe and having a
[1:24:02] relationship. I think that the city
[1:24:03] prosecutor needs to work very very
[1:24:06] closely with the police department. Um
[1:24:09] and I I do um they all have my phone
[1:24:12] number. I've talked to the the chief as
[1:24:15] early as 7 o'clock in the morning, as
[1:24:16] late as 9:00 at night. Same with the
[1:24:18] deputy chief. A lot of the officers um
[1:24:21] same with on the weekends. uh they call
[1:24:23] me sometimes because they can't get a
[1:24:25] hold of their county prosecutor to sign
[1:24:27] for a search warrant and they can get a
[1:24:29] hold of me. Um so they do uh I will
[1:24:32] answer the phone for those guys um and
[1:24:34] women uh anytime um on on vacation or
[1:24:38] anything. So, I think it's relationships
[1:24:40] uh with the police, safety, and then
[1:24:43] just um also, you know, you can have a
[1:24:46] positive role like I was saying like
[1:24:47] with, you know, some people that just
[1:24:49] have never come to court before and
[1:24:51] they're coming because they have a
[1:24:52] speeding ticket or something and you
[1:24:54] know, you can have a a a good, you know,
[1:24:57] it's not the it's not a major crime,
[1:24:59] it's a speeding ticket and show them a
[1:25:01] good experience uh at their court and
[1:25:04] dealing with their their local
[1:25:05] prosecutor.
[1:25:08] Okay,
[1:25:10] I think that's all for questions
[1:25:13] >> that we did.
[1:25:15] >> What was that?
[1:25:27] » You want to say it?
[1:25:29] >> Do you want to say it?
[1:25:30] >> Go ahead. Do it.
[1:25:32] >> Um, I don't know if I'm gonna say it
[1:25:35] right, John. So, I might need you to
[1:25:36] chime in.
[1:25:37] >> Yep. That's
[1:25:37] >> If hired,
[1:25:39] will you review the cases? Oh, well,
[1:25:44] review the cases we have and advise us,
[1:25:46] but
[1:25:48] >> I think it was for ordinances, right?
[1:25:50] >> Oh, yeah. Yeah.
[1:25:51] >> There was review and advise on.
[1:25:53] >> So, we have a lot of different
[1:25:54] ordinances and everything. What are your
[1:25:56] thoughts about reviewing looking through
[1:25:57] that stuff and seeing if there's things
[1:25:59] that we need to improve on? Do you do
[1:26:01] you look at things or, you know, how
[1:26:03] things have been written? Is there
[1:26:04] problems with stuff? Do you see, you
[1:26:06] know, do are things good or bad? What do you recommend? What would you
[1:26:10] recommend?
[1:26:11] >> Criminal ordinances, building
[1:26:13] ordinances, both
[1:26:14] >> everything, I guess.
[1:26:15] >> Okay. Yeah. So, um, you know, I think
[1:26:18] that some of the building code could use
[1:26:20] to be rewritten in some ways. You know,
[1:26:22] I think that we would be uh it'd be good
[1:26:25] to have a few municipal civil
[1:26:27] infractions instead of everything being
[1:26:29] a misdemeanor. Uh there misdemeanor can
[1:26:32] be problematic for some building co uh
[1:26:34] code cases because um they uh attorneys
[1:26:38] they get attorneys um appointed to them
[1:26:41] and then it drags out longer in court.
[1:26:44] There's a discovery process and it can
[1:26:46] go on longer. They have a right to a
[1:26:48] jury trial. Um, and so it will sometimes
[1:26:51] take a lot longer in court because of
[1:26:53] that process, which I know can be very
[1:26:56] uh frustrating to the building
[1:26:58] department because they feel like on
[1:27:00] their end, they've already given people
[1:27:02] notices and sent letters and things and
[1:27:04] so they want to see it move faster, but
[1:27:06] due process
[1:27:08] dictates that it moves a little slower.
[1:27:10] And then there's, you know, setting it
[1:27:11] for trial, setting for jury trial, which
[1:27:13] could take a longer time. So, if we
[1:27:16] considered doing a few things more like
[1:27:18] municipal civil infractions, we could
[1:27:21] move those along along a little bit
[1:27:22] faster because then they don't need um
[1:27:25] there's no jury trial or trial. It would
[1:27:27] be a formal hearing and the judge could
[1:27:29] have that quickly and then um it's a
[1:27:32] fine and if it's not paid uh it's put on
[1:27:36] your property taxes. So, that's a um an
[1:27:38] idea that we could consider. Um, some of
[1:27:41] it could maybe be just used to be
[1:27:42] updated a little bit. As far as the
[1:27:45] criminal ordinances, um, I would just
[1:27:47] like to see us add, um, and chief and I
[1:27:50] have spoken about this before, but I
[1:27:52] think it'd be nice to add a a high BAC,
[1:27:55] um, OWI ordinance to our code. Um, right
[1:27:59] now we just have a just a drunk driving
[1:28:01] one, but I think it would be helpful and
[1:28:03] give me some um, more leverage if we
[1:28:05] added a high BAC um, which is 0.17 or
[1:28:09] higher.
[1:28:10] uh and and it's a different level and
[1:28:13] the main thing that that brings in is a
[1:28:15] different um licensing sanction. Uh so
[1:28:18] uh it's still I will still have to work
[1:28:20] within the 90day frame of any local
[1:28:23] ordinance as far as jail time, but the
[1:28:26] licensing sanctions are are really um
[1:28:29] severe and they you actually lose your
[1:28:32] license for a year, then you have to put
[1:28:33] a breathalyzer in your car. So, I think
[1:28:35] um sometimes I see cases that are very
[1:28:38] high here um on occasion uh over over a
[1:28:42] two or over a three. So, that would be
[1:28:45] something that might be something we
[1:28:47] could consider. Um and we may want to
[1:28:49] consider um a domestic violence
[1:28:52] ordinance as well, which we don't have.
[1:28:55] So, we have to um write that under
[1:28:57] assault and battery if we want to keep
[1:28:59] it local. And I think uh a domestic
[1:29:02] violence might be something that we
[1:29:03] would we might want to consider adding.
[1:29:09] » Now is that normally the departments
[1:29:12] that come up with that stuff or is it
[1:29:13] the usually the prosecutors notices
[1:29:15] these things which
[1:29:17] >> I think it's sort of
[1:29:18] >> collaborative both or
[1:29:20] >> Yeah, I think it's a collaborative both
[1:29:22] really. um we'd have to identify a need
[1:29:26] and and talk with it and then decide if
[1:29:28] we were in agreement and then present it
[1:29:31] to council um for council's approval and
[1:29:35] thoughts upon it.
[1:29:36] >> Okay. And in closing, any closing things
[1:29:40] that you'd like to say?
[1:29:41] >> Um you know, I mean it's it's been a
[1:29:43] pleasure, you know, like it really has.
[1:29:46] Uh and so I've been with Wayne now for
[1:29:48] like I said, uh I think it's eight or
[1:29:50] nine years. And as I started out saying
[1:29:52] like the different department heads that
[1:29:54] I've gone through and um worked with and
[1:29:57] uh you know I got to work with Judge
[1:29:59] Mack who's um kind of like a a legend
[1:30:03] area judge really. She was you know as
[1:30:06] you guys know she started uh the mental
[1:30:08] health treatment court with uh Judge
[1:30:10] David Gubau who's another one of my
[1:30:12] mentors. Um so that was just so exciting
[1:30:15] to come here and get to work from her
[1:30:17] and and learn under her. And then um
[1:30:20] just I've really kind of come to really
[1:30:23] love Wayne in a lot of ways and the city
[1:30:26] and I didn't even really know that there
[1:30:29] was a city of Wayne, you know, before I got this job. Um I I was aware
[1:30:35] of it, but I just didn't live close. I
[1:30:37] knew it was next to Westland and but I
[1:30:39] had never been here and and um now I've
[1:30:41] been coming here, you know, regularly
[1:30:43] for for years and it's just a really
[1:30:46] it's a really nice city. Um, and like I
[1:30:48] said, I'm I think you guys should be
[1:30:50] really really proud of your police
[1:30:51] department. It's been an honor for me to
[1:30:54] work with them and to get to know them.
[1:30:56] Um, I just have nothing but respect for
[1:30:58] the the officers here. They do they do a
[1:31:01] really good job. Yeah. Really good job.
[1:31:04] And that that's all I have to say.
[1:31:07] >> Okay. Well, thank you.
[1:31:08] >> Thank you.
[1:31:10] We're going to take five
[1:31:12] minutes.
[1:35:53] Uh welcome. We are now on Rosetti
[1:35:57] Schultz, Jopic and Ambushler uh PC. And
[1:36:01] uh we'll start with letting you guys
[1:36:03] tell us about uh give us your personal
[1:36:05] bio, years of relevant service,
[1:36:08] experience, years with the existing your
[1:36:10] firm and uh and many municipalities that
[1:36:15] you currently serve, ability per the
[1:36:16] judge request, and back up when
[1:36:20] necessary, and your hourly rate.
[1:36:22] >> Um good evening. I'm Ann McLaclin as you
[1:36:25] know um I'm a shareholder with our firm
[1:36:29] and um I am a former prosecutor even
[1:36:32] though that is not generally um part of
[1:36:34] my current practice. I did formerly
[1:36:36] prosecute in Garden City and Redford
[1:36:40] Township. Um
[1:36:43] I will not be a prosecutor for Wayne
[1:36:47] should uh you choose to hire our firm
[1:36:49] for this. Um but um I do want to point
[1:36:52] out that our firm does serve many many
[1:36:55] different communities uh as prosecutors.
[1:36:58] We have presently 12 or more uh
[1:37:01] attorneys in our firm who do
[1:37:03] prosecutorial work including Matthew
[1:37:06] Wayne who is with me tonight and I would
[1:37:09] um like to introduce him to you and let
[1:37:11] him describe um his relevant experience.
[1:37:14] Um I would like to say one thing and
[1:37:17] that is that um our hourly rate that we
[1:37:20] have proposed is $195 an hour for uh
[1:37:23] prosecutorial services.
[1:37:26] >> Okay.
[1:37:28] >> Thank you. So uh good evening council
[1:37:30] members and madame clerk and madam
[1:37:32] manager and all attendees. So yes, my
[1:37:35] name is Matthew Wayne. I've been with
[1:37:37] Rosati Schultz for two years. Um, I've
[1:37:41] prosecuted in a number of places across
[1:37:43] Michigan, actually 14 communities and 13
[1:37:45] different district courts. I currently
[1:37:48] prosecute for the city of East Lancing
[1:37:50] in Giel Township. Um, in the past I have
[1:37:54] prosecuted Hand Tramic and Ingster, each
[1:37:56] of those for four years. And I have
[1:37:59] filled in for colleagues and number
[1:38:00] other communities such as Novi,
[1:38:03] Berkeley,
[1:38:05] um, Bloomfield Township, Sagen Township,
[1:38:08] and city among others.
[1:38:13] » Okay.
[1:38:16] Um
[1:38:17] we had a request from the judge uh her
[1:38:20] availability request. Uh is your firm
[1:38:22] able to provide prosecutional services
[1:38:26] for the 29th District Court's criminal
[1:38:29] dockets every week, Tuesday from 8:00
[1:38:32] a.m. to noon and one Monday a month at
[1:38:36] 8:00 a.m. to noon. Uh and jury trials
[1:38:39] are held on Tuesdays or Fridays when
[1:38:42] necessary. Uh it's imperative that our
[1:38:45] city's legal representation be available
[1:38:49] able to offer sufficient staffing to
[1:38:52] cover these dockets.
[1:38:54] >> Yes.
[1:38:55] >> So you're good. Okay.
[1:38:58] Councilwoman Lawrence
[1:39:05] » define discretion as it apply as it
[1:39:08] appeals to as it appeals to your role as
[1:39:10] city prosecutor and how would you use
[1:39:13] this discretion?
[1:39:16] >> Good question. Obviously discretion is a
[1:39:18] an important part of being a prosecutor.
[1:39:21] Um it can mean different things
[1:39:23] depending on the context. Um, but as
[1:39:26] prosecutors, and we learned this early
[1:39:28] in law school, if you are a prosecutor,
[1:39:30] you wear the hat of what's called a
[1:39:31] minister of justice. And when you're
[1:39:33] doing that, it means unlike a defense
[1:39:35] attorney, for example, who is obligated
[1:39:38] to uh go all out for their client, for
[1:39:40] lack of a better term, um I'm not always
[1:39:43] required to go all out for my client in
[1:39:46] the sense that if there is something
[1:39:49] that um is improper about an arrest, for
[1:39:53] an example, I can't proceed on that. If
[1:39:56] there is insufficient evidence to bring
[1:39:58] a case, I just can't proceed on that
[1:40:00] merely because I want to or merely
[1:40:01] because pressure me to do so. Um,
[1:40:04] discretion, again, it's probably easier
[1:40:06] um to give an example um as to define,
[1:40:10] but
[1:40:12] discretion is using sound judgment
[1:40:15] coupled with ethics and professionalism
[1:40:17] in determining what cases to prosecute
[1:40:20] and how vigorously to prosecute a
[1:40:22] defendant.
[1:40:24] Okay. Anything else?
[1:40:29] Councilwoman was
[1:40:32] >> um can you break down
[1:40:34] uh can you provide a breakdown of your
[1:40:35] experience with uh residential and
[1:40:38] commercial industrial compliance such as
[1:40:41] um such as occupying a building without
[1:40:44] a CO and an an inspector's right to
[1:40:47] enter. So I've uh for multiple
[1:40:50] communities where I've prosecuted um a
[1:40:53] lot of them who have taken their cues
[1:40:54] from the state codes. Those are issues
[1:40:56] that come up time.
[1:40:59] As far as the ability in reverse order
[1:41:01] as far as the ability for an inspector
[1:41:03] to enter um a premises um absent
[1:41:08] accident circumstances, there has to be
[1:41:10] reasonable cause for an individual um
[1:41:13] who's doing those inspections to enter
[1:41:15] onto the property. There are of course
[1:41:18] um circumstances such as um and this
[1:41:20] would not go for something like plumbing
[1:41:22] for example, but for violations that can
[1:41:24] be seen from the street or from someone
[1:41:27] else's property with their permission.
[1:41:30] um that would be different. Um with um
[1:41:33] certain um violations, plumbing and
[1:41:35] mechanical, um those get a little more
[1:41:38] pressing if there's something dangerous
[1:41:40] um or if there something dangerous is
[1:41:43] suspected of occurring there and it may
[1:41:44] be necessary to engage the court because
[1:41:47] unlike with um other types of offenses,
[1:41:50] the the logic is you can't wait until
[1:41:53] something bad happens. There has to be
[1:41:55] some kind of impetus to um be able to go
[1:41:58] and proactive about that and I've had to
[1:42:01] do that. I've had to deal with um uh in
[1:42:06] Hammock, for example, an older community
[1:42:08] with structures there. Um it was
[1:42:10] imperative that we had to go in there
[1:42:12] and we had to take care of problem
[1:42:14] structures because there were buildings
[1:42:15] there that some of them were 100 years
[1:42:17] old and they were just flatout dangerous
[1:42:19] and um it's certainly not a glamorous
[1:42:22] part of prosecuting. Not that any of it
[1:42:24] is, but it's necessary. It has to get
[1:42:26] done for the safety of the community.
[1:42:28] Um, it's an eyesore, but beyond that,
[1:42:31] nobody wants to hear about a kid or
[1:42:32] anybody else for that matter getting
[1:42:33] injured because someone's not taking
[1:42:35] care of their property. And so, I
[1:42:37] consider it just as an important part of
[1:42:39] prosecuting as
[1:42:42] prosecuting drunk drivers or assault or
[1:42:44] anything else. Um, if the community has
[1:42:46] prohibitions against it, then it's
[1:42:48] something that needs to be paid
[1:42:49] attention.
[1:42:52] >> Thank you.
[1:42:53] >> Okay. protest.
[1:42:57] » Is there anything that you could do as a
[1:43:01] city prosecutor to improve the
[1:43:03] efficiency of city court operations just
[1:43:06] in general?
[1:43:07] >> So that of course without knowing
[1:43:09] exactly how things run over there.
[1:43:11] That's something I'd have to be able to
[1:43:14] um have to take a look at. But that
[1:43:16] said, I mean any community or I've ever
[1:43:19] um prosecuted um I've met with the
[1:43:21] police department and the administrator
[1:43:24] to go over policies and procedures. Um,
[1:43:27] I like to know why something's being
[1:43:28] done in a certain way. Um, I understand
[1:43:30] certain communities want things done in
[1:43:32] a certain way, but sometimes there are
[1:43:34] policies and procedures which are
[1:43:36] slowing things down or they're kind of
[1:43:38] relics. Um, I've been there's a I've
[1:43:42] prosecuted in some courts where, for
[1:43:43] example, um the courts continue to use
[1:43:47] discovery orders. um and that's for
[1:43:49] misdemeanor cases and that's kind of a
[1:43:51] throwback to before 2020 when the court
[1:43:53] rules changed when uh discovery was not
[1:43:56] mandatory for misdemeanor cases. That's
[1:43:58] not the case now. So even if there and I
[1:44:01] I'm not saying that this would uh this
[1:44:03] uh condition would present itself, but
[1:44:05] if I found for example that discovery
[1:44:07] was not being offered um right away,
[1:44:09] exculpatory material, something that
[1:44:11] would tend to um to disprove someone's
[1:44:15] guilt. Um, that's the kind of thing I
[1:44:17] like to get on that right away to move
[1:44:19] cases along um, and get those materials
[1:44:22] over there because we have an obligation
[1:44:24] and then rather than um, if it's
[1:44:26] something rather than wait for an
[1:44:28] attorney to ask me, I've also developed
[1:44:29] a lot of relationships with defense
[1:44:31] attorneys and so um, those folks who
[1:44:34] I've worked with um, it's easy for me to
[1:44:35] reach out in advance and to work
[1:44:38] something out and to keep the docket
[1:44:40] from getting clogged. Um, in terms of
[1:44:43] other matters of efficiency, I don't
[1:44:45] know, this kind of uh might bleed into
[1:44:48] some other areas, but um I've always
[1:44:51] been big on helping um the police
[1:44:52] department if requested um with
[1:44:55] information about how to write more
[1:44:57] efficient police reports. Um we've
[1:45:01] worked with police departments um and
[1:45:03] helping officers who have little or no
[1:45:05] experience testifying um because one of
[1:45:08] the worst things is to be put in a
[1:45:10] position where never testify before any
[1:45:12] type of proceeding and you know god
[1:45:14] forbid you don't want it to happen but
[1:45:16] then somebody catastrophic happened
[1:45:18] someone has to testify and I have seen
[1:45:20] that happen in other communities there
[1:45:22] was a state case not one of the ones
[1:45:24] that I have but there was some officers
[1:45:25] never testified an experienced um
[1:45:28] assistant prosecuting attorney from
[1:45:30] county and they had defense attorneys
[1:45:32] who've been doing this for 40 years.
[1:45:34] Well, guess who got chewed up and spit
[1:45:35] out? Those new officers. I never want to
[1:45:38] see that happen. So, I pledged from that
[1:45:40] point that I would always make sure that
[1:45:42] the departments and all the education um
[1:45:45] any resources that we could possibly
[1:45:46] give them so that they could um testify
[1:45:49] efficiently, testify knowledgeably, and
[1:45:52] do a good job so that we don't let the
[1:45:54] bad guys loose, so to speak.
[1:45:57] >> Okay.
[1:45:59] So, are there any matters you would or
[1:46:03] would not provide counsel to the police
[1:46:05] department on?
[1:46:08] >> I can't really think of any. I mean, we
[1:46:09] like, as I just uh detailed, we we do so
[1:46:12] many in terms of um testimonial
[1:46:14] training, but we also offer um
[1:46:16] constitutional advice, work on search
[1:46:18] and seizures, best practices. Um if it connects with law enforcement, if
[1:46:23] it's going to make the community safer,
[1:46:25] it's going to make the police department
[1:46:26] better. And I have that knowledge. I'm
[1:46:28] absolutely going to share it. And uh
[1:46:32] something that's nice about having a
[1:46:33] firm with so many people with uh so many
[1:46:35] experience because as I believe she
[1:46:37] said, that's really all our firm does.
[1:46:40] Um if there's something I don't happen
[1:46:41] to know or if I'm not up to, you know,
[1:46:45] this up to speed exactly in the moment,
[1:46:48] I can almost guarantee we have somebody
[1:46:49] at our firm who who is up on that and
[1:46:52] who has done that, who has briefed the
[1:46:54] matter and probably litigated it. And um
[1:46:57] That's a great thing about our firm.
[1:46:58] Those attorneys always making themselves
[1:47:00] available um as a resource. So again, I can't really think of anything that I
[1:47:05] would counsel the police department on.
[1:47:07] I said anything that's going to make a
[1:47:08] better law better law enforcement agency
[1:47:10] and a safer community. I know I'm going
[1:47:13] to offer my services.
[1:47:16] Uh, Councilman Lawrence,
[1:47:22] » how many cases have you represented with
[1:47:24] a municipality regarding environmental
[1:47:26] violations such as air quality, fugitive
[1:47:30] dust, geotechnical reports, and various
[1:47:33] soil contamination testing? Did you go
[1:47:36] to trial and what were the outcomes? I
[1:47:38] have never had to prosecute any type of
[1:47:40] environmental um ordinances or any types
[1:47:43] of environmental violations.
[1:47:49] And while I have not prosecuted them in
[1:47:51] a in a criminal case um for ordinance
[1:47:54] enforcement, I have dealt with um
[1:47:57] environmental concerns and worked with
[1:48:00] Eagle, which um does have jurisdiction
[1:48:02] over things like air quality um and
[1:48:06] fugitive dust as as is described in the
[1:48:08] in your question. Um and our role um in
[1:48:13] that case I was hired as a special
[1:48:15] counsel for another city and they asked
[1:48:17] me to initially to look into the
[1:48:20] possibility of um abating a nuisance and
[1:48:24] preventing demolition of a what would
[1:48:26] they call it historic building um
[1:48:28] because it contained asbestous and there
[1:48:31] was some remediation that needed to be
[1:48:33] done. So our role in that particular
[1:48:35] case was to work with Eagle. Um we
[1:48:39] obtained the uh property developer and
[1:48:42] or demolition companies um um promise
[1:48:47] and they carried through with it that
[1:48:49] they would provide us with daily air
[1:48:51] monitor uh and air quality readings and
[1:48:54] things like that. so that we um ended up
[1:48:57] proactively preventing any types of
[1:49:02] problems that would affect the
[1:49:03] neighboring properties and communities.
[1:49:06] So that um that was, you know, turned
[1:49:08] out to be done safely and while people
[1:49:11] weren't happy that the building was
[1:49:13] eventually demolished, it was done in a
[1:49:15] safe manner and we were able to keep our
[1:49:17] tabs on that.
[1:49:19] [clears throat]
[1:49:24] Councilwoman was.
[1:49:27] >> Okay. So, kind of a two-part. How
[1:49:29] familiar are you with our current legal
[1:49:31] situations?
[1:49:33] And do you have any experience with
[1:49:35] habitual offenders andor difficult
[1:49:39] latigious, mentally ill or retaliatory
[1:49:42] violators?
[1:49:44] So I am aware obviously conversations
[1:49:46] with an about some of the more
[1:49:51] interesting people
[1:49:54] but the that's any community. Uh to
[1:49:56] answer your question um I dealt with um
[1:49:59] all kinds of individuals in prosecuting.
[1:50:02] Yes. So people who are retaliatory yes
[1:50:04] sovereign citizens yes people who
[1:50:06] threaten violence yes
[1:50:08] Ohio State fans. the very worst of
[1:50:10] people.
[1:50:12] Um, no, but all all joking aside, that
[1:50:14] really that's any community. Um, again,
[1:50:18] that's, you know, in those folks who
[1:50:19] reside here or who are in the court
[1:50:21] system, they're still entitled to their
[1:50:23] rights. Um, I personally try to kill
[1:50:25] them with kindness and, you know, be
[1:50:28] respectful to them, but at the end of
[1:50:30] the day, you know, you have to do what
[1:50:31] you have to do. And um I know you know
[1:50:35] something that comes up in that respect
[1:50:37] when you have folks who have civil suits
[1:50:38] sometimes they get picked up for traffic
[1:50:40] violations or you know just other events
[1:50:44] and that's where that discretion comes
[1:50:46] in and and the ethics you have to you
[1:50:48] know go about prosecuting them the way
[1:50:51] that you would prosecute anyone else.
[1:50:53] You have to look at what the criminal
[1:50:54] record is. You have to kind of you know
[1:50:56] divorce yourself from the fact that you
[1:50:57] have civil litigation. Um
[1:51:02] part of what you do as a prosecutor.
[1:51:04] >> Thank you,
[1:51:06] >> Mayor Proto.
[1:51:08] >> Uh, this is a
[1:51:11] this question has several parts in it,
[1:51:14] each one being answered with yes or no.
[1:51:16] An experience question with several
[1:51:19] parts. Uh, what experience do you have
[1:51:20] interpreting and enforcing um these
[1:51:22] following codes? The Michigan uh do you
[1:51:26] have experience interpreting and
[1:51:28] enforcing these following codes? The
[1:51:30] Michigan Building Code. Yes.
[1:51:32] >> The residential code or any residential
[1:51:35] code?
[1:51:36] >> Yes.
[1:51:36] >> Mechanical code?
[1:51:38] >> Yes.
[1:51:38] >> Plumbing code?
[1:51:40] >> Yes.
[1:51:40] >> Electrical code?
[1:51:42] >> Yes.
[1:51:42] >> Fire code?
[1:51:44] >> Yes.
[1:51:44] >> And property maintenance code?
[1:51:46] >> Yes.
[1:51:47] >> Thank you.
[1:51:49] Okay.
[1:51:55] So if also I wanted to mention one other
[1:51:57] thing when you you brought up the uh the
[1:52:00] hours that the court has asked the
[1:52:02] prosecutor to be available. Um it's
[1:52:05] always been my practice at well as well
[1:52:06] that in addition to being present for
[1:52:09] the times that the court needs me. I
[1:52:11] don't, you know, keep an eye on clock
[1:52:13] and it's not like if someone needs me
[1:52:15] and it's, you know, past the hours of,
[1:52:18] you know, 12, it's not 12 and 8 on a
[1:52:20] Tuesday or that one Monday. That by no
[1:52:22] means is going to stop me from uh taking
[1:52:25] care of a case. I often get called on um
[1:52:29] to hey, can you jump on Zoom? We have
[1:52:31] somebody who got picked up and we need
[1:52:33] to argue for bond. This person's
[1:52:35] violent. Um, you know, I had it happen
[1:52:38] 5:30 on a Friday before other random
[1:52:40] times. As far as I'm concerned, that's
[1:52:42] just part of it. So, as long as I'm
[1:52:44] available, as long as I'm not in a
[1:52:46] hearing or in court somewhere else,
[1:52:48] again, obviously, I will be there. You
[1:52:50] know, if your city selects us as your
[1:52:53] firm, I will be there um for the hours
[1:52:56] in question. But again, by no means um
[1:52:59] means I would be confined to just
[1:53:00] working those hours.
[1:53:03] >> Okay.
[1:53:04] So, what do you think uh your role as
[1:53:08] city prosecutor is?
[1:53:12] >> Well, I think I've already touched by
[1:53:13] some of this, but I mean, the first and
[1:53:15] foremost, it's assisting and maintaining
[1:53:17] public safety, and that's working with
[1:53:19] the police department and other law
[1:53:20] enforcement agencies to keep the
[1:53:22] community safe in any way, shape, or
[1:53:25] form that I that I can. Um, I need to
[1:53:28] ensure that the law is executed fairly
[1:53:30] and impartially,
[1:53:32] maintain discretion when I need to.
[1:53:34] exercise um sound judgment
[1:53:37] and um also part of that discretion is
[1:53:40] um
[1:53:42] doing things with an eye not only for
[1:53:44] justice but also for judicial economy.
[1:53:46] Sometimes those go hand in hand,
[1:53:48] sometimes they don't. Um but I think you
[1:53:50] know it's a balance of all those and
[1:53:52] then as mentioned um educating and
[1:53:54] providing resources to the police
[1:53:57] department and for that matter anyone
[1:53:59] else um
[1:54:01] is part of the city who wants to avail
[1:54:03] themselves of any other training or
[1:54:06] program.
[1:54:09] >> Okay. Now, if you were to selected,
[1:54:13] would you come in and look at our
[1:54:14] ordinances and the things that we have
[1:54:17] and make recommendations of things that
[1:54:18] need to be fixed or how how do you
[1:54:20] normally handle something like that?
[1:54:23] >> I think I would work with Ann here. So,
[1:54:25] I don't Yeah, I've already looked at
[1:54:27] some of the ordinances. I've noticed
[1:54:28] like some of the differences um noticed
[1:54:31] that the city of Wayne um some of the
[1:54:33] ordinances rather the extent of the
[1:54:35] ordinances are not as um great as in
[1:54:38] other communities. like lesser offenses
[1:54:40] are handled, excuse me, less offenses or
[1:54:42] fewer offenses rather are handled at the
[1:54:44] local level compared to other
[1:54:46] communities. Um I don't know that it's
[1:54:48] my place to come in and say if
[1:54:49] something's wrong. I mean I like to know
[1:54:51] how it's working. I think that's an
[1:54:53] important part and to gauge um you know
[1:54:56] talking with uh you know folks over at
[1:54:59] the court talking with the police
[1:55:00] department talking with any of you you
[1:55:02] know if how you think that these
[1:55:04] ordinances are working is you know would
[1:55:06] you like to see them um you know be more
[1:55:09] farreaching is there anywhere you think
[1:55:11] the ordinances need to kind of pull back
[1:55:13] and then again working with an or others
[1:55:16] to do the same thing to leers with you
[1:55:19] and and determine what we can do there
[1:55:21] but uh we have uh even though it's not
[1:55:23] something that I do primarily of course
[1:55:24] we do have a lot of experience in um
[1:55:27] preparing ordinances and we have a lot
[1:55:29] of materials that we can pull from.
[1:55:32] >> I would just like to um add that um that
[1:55:36] was something that we um included with
[1:55:39] our general counsel
[1:55:42] um proposal as well. But um it is
[1:55:47] commonly our practice to note where we
[1:55:51] feel that the mechanisms that exist are
[1:55:54] not sufficient to do the job of um
[1:55:58] taking care of the problems that the
[1:56:00] city may have. Um, for example, you
[1:56:03] know, there is the state housing law and
[1:56:06] the dangerous building code within the
[1:56:08] state housing law, but it does that also
[1:56:10] allows the city to pass its own housing
[1:56:13] code and perhaps um expand on some of
[1:56:18] the particulars in terms of what
[1:56:21] mechanisms are available to to take care
[1:56:24] of problem properties. Um, especially
[1:56:27] when you've got dangerous buildings. um
[1:56:29] you know for um the um in another
[1:56:33] community they didn't have their
[1:56:35] demolition board uh convened properly
[1:56:38] and so their hands were tied as far as
[1:56:40] how far they could go with dealing with
[1:56:42] those properties. So that's something
[1:56:43] that we suggested um and that that
[1:56:46] actually wasn't a case where we had a um
[1:56:49] they weren't our direct client. we were
[1:56:50] representing them in litigation related
[1:56:52] to that issue and I flat out told them
[1:56:55] you need to take care of this otherwise
[1:56:57] you're going to keep ending up in civil
[1:56:58] litigation if you don't um correct that
[1:57:02] problem and make sure that those
[1:57:03] mechanisms are available to your you
[1:57:05] know your code enforcement officers and
[1:57:07] hearing officers [snorts]
[1:57:12] » any other questions from
[1:57:15] Okay so if [snorts] you want to give us
[1:57:16] a closing
[1:57:18] pitch do Do you do you like do you think
[1:57:21] it's something that should be
[1:57:24] prosecution by itself or altogether and
[1:57:27] then give your closing?
[1:57:30] >> Okay. Um well um we have a number of
[1:57:32] comm we represent a number of
[1:57:34] communities where we are general counsel
[1:57:36] and um we have attorneys in our firm who
[1:57:39] do their prosecutorial work. Um I can I
[1:57:43] can name you a handful right off the top
[1:57:45] of my head. Um and those um jobs seem to
[1:57:50] go hand in hand um because then you you
[1:57:53] have the opportunity to work together on
[1:57:55] something like what we just mentioned
[1:57:57] where um you know we feel that the
[1:57:59] prosecutorial mechanisms are
[1:58:01] insufficient
[1:58:02] um for the in the ordinances that are
[1:58:05] available right now um and recommend
[1:58:08] those types of um amendments or whatever
[1:58:10] changes need to be made. So, um, we do believe that, um, working with
[1:58:18] general counsel and prosecutors, working
[1:58:20] side by side for the same community
[1:58:21] allows us to have a more cohesive and,
[1:58:25] um, consistent approach to each
[1:58:29] community rather than having to contact,
[1:58:31] if we're general counsel, you know,
[1:58:33] having to contact a prosecutor and say,
[1:58:35] "Hey, this is something we're thinking
[1:58:37] about. What do you think?" You know, it
[1:58:38] just makes it easier to have both. Um
[1:58:41] but certainly we um given that we have
[1:58:44] so much experience, we also do prosecute
[1:58:47] for communities that we don't
[1:58:48] represented as general counsel. So it's
[1:58:50] not exclusive. But I I p personally I
[1:58:54] think it's probably preferable to have
[1:58:57] both because then you have the
[1:58:59] opportunity to serve the community in a
[1:59:01] much broader way than you do in either
[1:59:03] individual instance.
[1:59:05] >> Okay. Any closing? Um, no. I I think you
[1:59:10] know, you know, you know me, you know
[1:59:11] our firm. Um, and you know, we would be
[1:59:15] certainly very honored and privileged if
[1:59:17] you chose us um to um be your general
[1:59:20] counsel and prosecutorial firm. Um, and
[1:59:23] we're happy to serve the city of Wayne
[1:59:25] in any way that we can.
[1:59:27] >> Okay. Well, thank you.
[1:59:28] >> Thank you.
[1:59:57] >> Okay, let's go ahead and move the
[1:59:58] agenda.
[2:00:00] >> Public comments for matters not on the
[2:00:02] agenda. Public comment is conducted in
[2:00:04] accordance with applicable laws. Public
[2:00:06] comment is limited to three minutes
[2:00:08] which will begin when the speaker
[2:00:09] approaches the podium unless the time is
[2:00:11] extended by a majority vote of city
[2:00:12] council. All public comment shall be
[2:00:15] directed to city council and they shall
[2:00:16] not respond. Public comment shall not be
[2:00:19] disruptive, any violator of public
[2:00:20] comment. Procedures may be ordered to be
[2:00:23] seated immediately or removed by the
[2:00:25] chairperson of the meeting or the
[2:00:27] chairperson's designate.
[2:00:29] >> Okay. Any public comment comments on
[2:00:31] matters on the agenda this evening? Yes.
[2:00:38] » First, I'm sorry about my attire, but I
[2:00:40] didn't know this meeting was going on,
[2:00:42] so I just took off and flew down here.
[2:00:45] Um, Nancy Pride, I live on Courier
[2:00:47] Street. Um,
[2:00:50] two questions. I know about the flack
[2:00:53] camera or the flack t cameras. if
[2:00:56] there's any first or second or third
[2:00:59] parties that have attached anything to
[2:01:01] them, um they need to come down. Um the
[2:01:05] other one is do we have a large drone
[2:01:09] that hovers our city?
[2:01:15] And there was one other one that I
[2:01:17] wanted.
[2:01:19] Oh, yes.
[2:01:21] We have seen on uh Facebook, and I know
[2:01:24] you can't believe everything you see on
[2:01:26] Facebook, but I've talked to other
[2:01:28] people and they do have them. Do we or
[2:01:31] are we considering putting our police
[2:01:35] officers in the schools with the stun
[2:01:38] mits on their hands?
[2:01:42] [clears throat] They have them and they
[2:01:44] are putting them in the high schools and
[2:01:45] the different places. So, I want to know
[2:01:48] if this is what
[2:01:51] Nope. Okay. Because to me that's that's
[2:01:54] just such an invasion
[2:01:57] um on young people.
[2:02:00] I feel that it's they're trying to force
[2:02:03] them to compliance and not be
[2:02:08] a citizen of the United States. Thank
[2:02:10] you.
[2:02:10] >> Okay. Thank you. Anyone else?
[2:02:13] Yes.
[2:02:17] I was uh John Mills from Chestnut
[2:02:19] Street. Um I was not able to attend your
[2:02:22] August 13th special meeting that uh
[2:02:25] appeared to have been on legal counsel
[2:02:27] as well. Uh just for clarification, was
[2:02:30] that for general counsel and tonight is
[2:02:32] prosecutorial?
[2:02:35] >> Yes, that's all. Thanks.
[2:02:39] >> Okay.
[2:02:42] » Can I get a motion to adjurnn?
[2:02:48] >> Oh, second.
[2:02:49] >> All in favor?
[2:02:50] >> I
[2:02:51] >> opposed. Motion carries.
[2:02:53] >> Have a great night.