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Message that indicates that. Do you see that? Did it come through? Good.

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Whenever you're ready to commence, feel free.

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All righty. Your clock and minor on the same sink here. So I'll start. I like to call the building board of appeals hearing for June 24, 2021 at 2 o'clock PM to order.

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I'd like to start off by asking Boardmember Jack to lead us in the Civil Regions, please.

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Okay, and everybody in attendance, would you please repeat after me?

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I pledge allegiance to the flag.

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I pledge allegiance to the flag to the flag.

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From the United States of America.

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From the United States of America.

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And to the Republic.

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And to the Republic.

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Of which it stands.

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Of which it stands.

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One nation under God, one nation under God, in the visible, in the visible, with liberty and justice for all, with liberty and justice for all.

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Thank you, Jack.

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So now I'd like to get a roll call of the members.

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Can I get that Arlene?

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Yes.

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Heinrich?

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Here.

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Who is he?

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Here.

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Heather,

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you're on mute.

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Eric,

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Eric.

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I'll present.

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Thank you.

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So I'd like to call for a motion from the board members to approve the June 2nd 2021

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minutes.

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Do I have a motion to do so?

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A motion?

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Thank you, Jack.

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Do I have a second?

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So I'd like the recording secretary to call for the vote?

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Yes.

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Heinrich?

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Yes.

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Who wants to go?

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Yes.

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So that's our goal of our.

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Nick Farlin.

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Yes.

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Motion carries unanimously.

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Thank you.

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So I'm going to go through and read some things here that give us an outline of our meeting here today.

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So bear with me.

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I've got a page of things to go through.

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And if you hear noise in the background,

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for some reason, people next door to me decided today was the day to start building things.

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No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

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If it gets loud, just tell me, hey, could you repeat that, please. So I'm going to open the hearings of two appeals of the city building code compliance determination.

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The two determinations are both appealed by the same appellant, so I'm going to consolidate the hearings to consider both matters.

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So we will hear the two appeals separately in this one hearing.

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This hearing is being recorded by the staff, you can see that on the top of the screen.

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The hearing will be conducted in accordance with the procedures adopted by this board on June 20, or June 2, 2021, consistent with all legal requirements.

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Those procedures guarantee the appellate due process, such that we can decide the appeals fairly.

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The formal rules of evidence do not apply, both the city staff and the appellate will have an opportunity to make a brief presentation no more than 15 minutes please.

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The board may ask questions of those presenting to the board and the parties shall also be afforded the right to ask questions of anyone making a presentation.

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Through the board chair, please.

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At the conclusion of the presentation, there will be an opportunity for public comment.

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After the public comment, the board will deliberate and appropriate will take action.

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I'll have a bit more to say about that.

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We're going to get to that portion of the hearing.

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Are there any general questions from the board about the procedures for today?

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Okay, hearing none, let's get started.

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The first item to be heard is in a PO case number 30 dash 2021 dash 01183961.

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This concerns a notice of if violation dated March 15th 2021 provided to the appellants.

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And I'm going to ask somebody to do a better job with names and I do to read that

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into the record please.

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Maybe David or our lean.

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I could go for it.

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So I believe that the appellate is Sharam Manigalam and I'm not sure who the other party is. Mr. Manigalam, would you pronounce your other counterpart's name for the record?

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Sheerine, I mean, my mom and sister, I believe,

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sheerine Manigalam and Hajar Azadmar.

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There we go.

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Okay, thank you so much.

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I didn't want to mess it up, so my apologies.

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And concerns against an electrical line serving a barbecue cooking device.

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And the record are the following documents on March 15, 2021, the city served in the violation notice on the appellant.

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On March 24, the appellant submitted and response to the notice of violation.

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On March 30, 2021, the appellant notified the city of the intention to appeal the notice of violation.

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On June 3, 2021, the appellate was notified that a hearing would be scheduled to hear an appeal on June 14, 2021.

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At the Appellate's request, the hearing was rescheduled for today.

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Also on June 3, 2021, the appellate was provided a copy of the procedures applicable to this hearing

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as well as a copy of the city's written documentation submitted to the board.

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On June 21, 2021, this gets harder to say as you go along.

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They have helped through the council submitted a letter to the board.

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That letter was approved or provided to the board and to the city staff.

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Neither the city nor the appellant have notified the board

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that they intended to call any witnesses.

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is accordingly, no witness testimony will be heard today.

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I would now like the city staff and the appellant

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or the appellants for representatives

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to identify themselves for the record, please.

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I'm at great attorney representing the appellants.

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Jim Sowers, Building Officials, City of York,

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Linda,

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no mümduse men, city attorney's office.

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And Mr. Moneygalom?

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Yes.

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Share all my new Gallum appellant.

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So do we need any of the rest here to introduce themselves as well?

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I believe that's it, Mr. Chair.

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Okay. So now I would like to invite the city to provide a presentation to the board.

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Please keep in mind there is a 15 minute time limit.

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Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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Good afternoon. The first item on the agenda is a notice of violation regarding extra lighting attached to a residence.

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Located at 211-29, via Canon, on March 29, 2021, the building division received an email regarding two

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unpromitted light pictures that were installed on the reference address.

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Subsequent research of permit history was completed and no permits were found for the new the attached experience.

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Excuse me, Chair Heinrich, could I interrupt for just one second?

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This is now a presentation on the second of the issues that you just called the hearing for.

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So, okay, with me, if you've

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scribed, it's for a different matter than what's now being said.

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I'm sorry, the one that I had for the agenda show that being the first back in the easy switch to the other one, if you'd like.

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Yeah, let's try and keep the order.

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Yeah, no problem.

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Okay.

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I'm sorry for the confusion.

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Thank you.

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Good.

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Can't even thank you.

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Thank you.

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The first item on the agenda, excuse me, is an agenda for a, is an agenda for an appeal,

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for a notice by a violation pertaining to gas and electric lines serving a brick and mortar

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barbecues structure located at 211-29V a cannon. On October 21st, 2020,

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city staff received an email regarding gas and electric lines serving a detached brick and mortar

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barbecues structure. The complaint, the complainant, also stated there's a strong smell of gas

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coming from the rear yard of 211-29V a cannon. A researcher permit history was completed and no

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for myths for found for the gas and electric line serving

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a detached barbecue structure.

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In an attempt to verify the validity of the report,

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city staff made multiple requests to the homeowner

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to conduct an onsite inspection

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all which were denied.

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Staffs then contacted Southern California gas company

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to verify if there is any gas company activity

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at 211-29 via Canon.

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The gas company represented at excuse me,

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The advice staff that a disconnection of service had been completed on 3, 11, 2017 for service

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to a barbecue, and no service had been re-established since.

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The representative also stated that there was a recent service request for 21129 B.A.

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Cannon.

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The request was made on 10, 5, 2020, and was for the reconnection of service to a barbecue.

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The request was denied by the service technician as it could not find proper point of connection

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to the home and the work appeared to be unpromitted. Due to the owners' refusal to allow

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a voluntary inspection staff applied for an inspection warrant, which was signed by the judge

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in March 2, 2021, and executed on March 3, 2021. The site inspection is built that both unpromitted

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gas and electric lines were indeed did indeed serve a detached brick and mortar barbecue structure.

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Based on the inspection results, City issued the owner, a notice of violation dated March 15, 2021.

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The owner appealed a notice of violation.

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Based on the site inspection and staff report provided, staff is requiring that the owner's secure permit for the gas and electric lines.

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The inspection process be completed to an approved final inspection, or that the owner's secure permit for the abandonment of the gas and electric lines.

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and the abandonment inspection process be completed up to the final inspection.

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Staff findings are based on the following.

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2019 California Building Code and the 2019 California Residential Code, Section 105.1

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and Section 105.2 Electrical Employment.

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2019 California Public Code, Section 104.2, exempt work.

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Chapter 12, Bill Gas Bifing, 1997, Uniform Housing Code, Section 1-001.6, Hazardous Flonis, 2019 California

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ElectroCode, Article 89.

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General Code provisions, Section 89.108.4.1 permits, and Section 189.108.4.4, and Section

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The 1997 Uniform Housing Code, Section 1001.5, Hazard's Electrical Wiring,

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the Arbulendor Ordnance Number 2019-1065, Article 95.7, Permit, Article 95.10 Compliance, Article 95.11,

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infections.

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Okay,

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thank you, Mr. Sauer. Do any of the board members have questions for the city staff?

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I have one. I was curious as to why the original disconnect of the gas. Why was that disconnected?

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Can anyone know?

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It did that give me any information.

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If the gas companies just noted to me that there was a

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Disconnection date on the date that I gave you.

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Thank you.

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Any other questions from a board member?

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All right.

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Thank you.

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Before we had office is known to be from city attorney's office.

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I'm fairly certain that we have probably approximately 10 minutes left

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on our presentation.

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We'd like to reserve that time to respond to any questions after the

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phone's presentation and or address the some of the points that they may

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raise. I believe you're right on your timing.

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So thank you. Does the appellate have any

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questions for the state staff and please note there's a five minute limit on questions

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and questions must be related to the compliance issue related code sections and if you

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Yeah, from that I may ask you to stop, please.

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Go ahead.

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Yes, I'm at the rate for the appellums.

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Mr. Sowers, when you got there, did you smell gas?

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We got where to do the site inspection?

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Yes, no sir, at that point in time,

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there could be a flex line that was disconnected prior to our arrival.

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But the flex line had been disconnected in 2017, correct?

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I do not know.

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There's a lot of what you're working on as a gas company.

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Again, the complaint was for a strong smell of gas.

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Flex length can easily be reconnected and connected.

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So I have no idea if it was reconnected or not reconnected.

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At the time where there, no, there's not a smell of gas.

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Did you see any F?

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Did you see any evidence that the flex line had been connected or reconnected?

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What I noticed was shiny connections that had been,

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look like brand new connections had been reapplied.

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And you can see also see it in some of the photos, if you look at the photos.

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So what's that being there, excuse me, would that be a no, can you repeat your question

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because I don't, it doesn't make any sense for your ass.

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Sure, if you hold on to any evidence, that the objection mistakes, the witnesses testimony,

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he asked you if you saw he saw any evidence and he just testified that he did see evidence which was

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untarnished caps on the line that would indicate that the disconnection occurred recently.

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And did the fact that there were untarnished caps on the lines indicate that the lines had been

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used recently.

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It appears that there were possibly used recently however there were caps.

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Okay. And you do not know when those caps were installed. No, I was not present during the

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cap installation or uninstallation. All right. And do you have any evidence that the caps

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were not installed when the lines were cut off in 2017? The lines were never cut off. What do you

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mean by cut off? I mean the gas lines were, I believe testified that the gas, you were advised

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the gas company that the gas lines were disconnect. That is correct. Okay. And were you advised

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by the gas company as to whether the gas lines were kept by the gas company? They did not do

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any of the capping because that is not their job.

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And they told you that? Yes. So whoever kept them

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and wherever disconnected it, they disconnected service to the gas line by disconnecting the service,

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wherever they disconnected, that's what they told me, that they disconnected service,

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how they did it, I do not know. I wasn't there. All right. And as your understanding is that

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once the service to the gas line was disconnected, that gas could continue to flow through the gas line.

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That is not a repeat the question.

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The gas company advised you that the gas line had been disconnected.

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Correct.

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All right. And is it your understanding that even though the gas line has been disconnected, that gas continues to flow through the gas line?

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If it was reconnected without anybody knowing, sure, it could be absolutely could definitely go back to the gas line.

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I don't have anything further for Mr. Sours.

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So, did the city attorney want to respond to any of that with the title?

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I just have one question from Mr. Sours.

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Is the violation that's at issue that was cited in the notice of violation 105.1 for a permit requirement?

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Does that have to do with the existence of the gas line or is it the fact that there's actually gas running to it?

235
00:21:02,020 --> 00:21:07,960
In other words, isn't the existence of the gas line in and of itself a violation, in

236
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:11,920
as much as it was constructed or installed without a permit?

237
00:21:12,540 --> 00:21:20,060
That would be the same for the electrical lines, whether or not electricity is actually

238
00:21:20,060 --> 00:21:27,420
flowing through those lines, there would be a requirement to get permits under 105.1 for

239
00:21:27,420 --> 00:21:28,000
those wiring.

240
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:35,400
That is correct sir. May I ask a follow-up question please if Mr. Eugen?

241
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:39,240
You did have a minute left like we can.

242
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:40,940
Yeah, I have no objection.

243
00:21:41,660 --> 00:21:42,000
All right.

244
00:21:43,340 --> 00:21:46,320
105.1 prohibits.

245
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:49,480
Well, let me ask you this.

246
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:56,620
Did you see any evidence or advised by anyone that the appellants intended to construct in large

247
00:21:56,620 --> 00:22:05,260
all-ter repair, move, demolish, or change the gas lines or electrical lines to the unit,

248
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:13,780
to the barbecue unit. First of all, you quoted 105.1 and as far as the owner,

249
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:20,990
they didn't have anything to do with respect to what you said as far as all-ter repair or

250
00:22:20,990 --> 00:22:27,430
move. However, if you look at 105.1 under electrical, it talks about the only thing you get to do

251
00:22:27,430 --> 00:22:33,130
with electrical as well as gas piping under the plumbing section of it.

252
00:22:33,270 --> 00:22:36,750
It doesn't apply to somebody actually putting in a gas line.

253
00:22:37,190 --> 00:22:40,410
And I don't know if they put in the gas line to the barbecue structure,

254
00:22:40,630 --> 00:22:43,890
if it's done prior to, in purchasing the home, the bottom line is,

255
00:22:43,990 --> 00:22:46,470
is that they are there, and they need to permit,

256
00:22:46,910 --> 00:22:49,910
and they need to be infected for safety reasons,

257
00:22:50,630 --> 00:22:52,250
both the gas and electrical lines.

258
00:22:52,590 --> 00:22:55,330
It doesn't matter who put it in, the bottom line is there.

259
00:22:55,330 --> 00:23:00,190
And to that point, Limit.

260
00:23:00,430 --> 00:23:01,990
One 0.5 point.

261
00:23:02,210 --> 00:23:03,170
Oh, sorry, my apologies.

262
00:23:04,030 --> 00:23:05,150
Please, please continue.

263
00:23:06,110 --> 00:23:06,330
I'm sorry.

264
00:23:06,990 --> 00:23:09,970
But one 0.5 point one, we're specific, excuse me.

265
00:23:10,510 --> 00:23:13,370
Specifically refers to the construction and largements,

266
00:23:14,110 --> 00:23:20,730
alteration, repair, movement, demolition or change in the

267
00:23:20,730 --> 00:23:22,390
electrical or gas structures.

268
00:23:22,990 --> 00:23:23,430
That's right.

269
00:23:24,710 --> 00:23:31,130
However, it does not, it does not indicate and 105, but it does not refer to exceptions,

270
00:23:35,540 --> 00:23:38,940
but the violation is directed towards the appellants.

271
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:42,420
The violation is somebody who did it previously.

272
00:23:44,860 --> 00:23:49,500
Yeah, and Jim, you can respond to that.

273
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:53,740
You need to respond to that question, and then I will add what I need to add.

274
00:23:53,740 --> 00:24:04,140
You're correct of the devolation, it goes toward the gas line and the electrical line in this case.

275
00:24:04,660 --> 00:24:08,100
And the appellant owns the property and purchased the property.

276
00:24:08,740 --> 00:24:11,440
I don't know if it's past, I'm assuming it was done in the past.

277
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,020
And it was inherited upon the sale.

278
00:24:14,580 --> 00:24:19,740
The bottom line is followed up on a complaint, which is the light safety issue that we followed up on.

279
00:24:19,740 --> 00:24:27,740
found the following items to be unpromitted at that point in time we address the unpromitted items and try to bring them into compliance.

280
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,940
That's what this whole thing is towards and nothing else.

281
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:34,480
Yes, the appellant does own the home.

282
00:24:35,220 --> 00:24:39,320
And to that point, and I know what Council is getting at for the appellant.

283
00:24:39,500 --> 00:24:43,740
I'd refer the board to civil code section 3483.

284
00:24:43,740 --> 00:24:50,980
3. Again, that's 3, 4, 8, 3. And that code section states that a success of owner of a property

285
00:24:51,580 --> 00:24:59,760
is responsible for the conditions ongoing violations that the property created and I'll quote

286
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:08,800
It by a former owner and is liable, therefore, in the case, in the same manner as the one who first created it.

287
00:25:09,540 --> 00:25:13,120
And the reason that that civil code section exists is obvious.

288
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:20,340
You know, as a public policy, we have to hold someone accountable for a property.

289
00:25:20,340 --> 00:25:29,240
that is the owner. The owner kicks on whatever, you know, the property as is the owner's

290
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:36,960
recourse is against the former owner if the required real state disclosures, which would

291
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:43,820
have to disclose unpromitted improvements are not made or not made to the extent that they should

292
00:25:43,820 --> 00:25:50,880
be, the recourse of the owner is against not the city, but it against the the form owner

293
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:52,820
who may have not made those disclosures.

294
00:25:53,020 --> 00:25:58,840
But according to the civil code and there's also a case law to the extent that the board

295
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:08,700
is interested supports this long standing notion that a property owner is responsible for

296
00:26:08,700 --> 00:26:13,320
whatever unpromitted conditions exist at the property.

297
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:19,480
we would not go back and find a previous owner, for example, what if the previous owner was

298
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:27,220
deceased, then the city could never get compliance. The existing owner is the one responsible

299
00:26:27,220 --> 00:26:30,420
under the civil code and case law.

300
00:26:30,420 --> 00:26:35,320
Okay, can we move now to the presentation?

301
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:43,740
Okay, first did the board receive our written response

302
00:26:44,380 --> 00:26:48,620
to the accusations or written repeal that was filed.

303
00:26:50,100 --> 00:26:54,620
On, we submitted to Mr. Bradley and Mr. Sowers on June 21, 2021.

304
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:57,820
So everyone has seen that?

305
00:26:57,820 --> 00:26:58,140
Yes.

306
00:26:58,140 --> 00:27:05,300
Okay, so now I'd like to invite the appellant to provide a presentation to the board.

307
00:27:05,540 --> 00:27:07,620
Again, there's a 15 minute time limit.

308
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:09,500
Thank you.

309
00:27:10,940 --> 00:27:18,600
I believe that our position is set forth in the documentation we previously submitted.

310
00:27:20,300 --> 00:27:25,460
The public building permits were issued for this property back in 1978.

311
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:34,700
We believe, or we have seen nothing to establish that those building permits did not

312
00:27:34,700 --> 00:27:40,980
encompass either the electrical line or the gas line that is a subject of this appeal,

313
00:27:42,360 --> 00:27:51,060
or that my client or anybody else previously altered or changed those lines without obtaining

314
00:27:51,060 --> 00:27:58,400
necessary building permit. There clearly was no building permit obtained since 1978. We've researched that.

315
00:28:00,380 --> 00:28:06,300
But what the building permit in 1978 permitted or did not permit is not an evidence before the board.

316
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:14,280
The board cannot assume that just because the condition is there that it was not constructed

317
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:20,440
to the original building permit issued to broaden more homes in 1978.

318
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:27,780
We do not know that the board does not know that, and staff does not know that.

319
00:28:28,660 --> 00:28:36,340
Siding Mr. Mike Lyons for their inherited violation of what may have been a violation or

320
00:28:36,340 --> 00:28:41,220
a failure to get a permit is simply not supported by the evidence.

321
00:28:47,020 --> 00:28:55,020
And I would rely on the remaining arguments made in the position paper filed on the 21st.

322
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,260
All right, does that conclude your presentation?

323
00:28:59,140 --> 00:28:59,660
Yes.

324
00:29:00,020 --> 00:29:01,380
Thank you very much.

325
00:29:02,060 --> 00:29:05,740
Does any board member have any questions for the appellate?

326
00:29:06,180 --> 00:29:13,160
Before that, can we briefly respond in the same way that appellate was provided an opportunity?

327
00:29:14,620 --> 00:29:24,520
I'd also like the board to be aware of the rule of convenience, and there's a case

328
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:33,720
of people versus Yoshimuro, 91, Calap 3D, 609 for the board's reference, and that case

329
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:40,300
along with a line of other cases cited therein, stands for the proposition that under

330
00:29:40,300 --> 00:29:46,840
circumstances where there's a question of whether or not it permit exists. It is not the moving

331
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:54,100
party here, the city obligation to prove the negative. We cannot prove the negative as was

332
00:29:54,100 --> 00:29:59,920
indicated in the staff report and it was indicated in the presentation. There is no permit on

333
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:29,200
File for either this gas line or for the electrical line. The city cannot prove the negative. If the property owner wishes to argue that somehow these improvements were included in the original building plan, which the city found not to be true, it would be the property owner's burden to bring forth a plan or a permit to demonstrate that either of these improvements or both of these improvements were at some point permitted.

334
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:34,680
The property owners had that opportunity and has failed to demonstrate that.

335
00:30:36,220 --> 00:30:38,860
Again, the city cannot prove the negative.

336
00:30:39,100 --> 00:30:44,460
The city has demonstrated or has testified to the fact that there is no permit.

337
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,900
The city is not in possession of any permit.

338
00:30:48,980 --> 00:30:56,920
We've provided the property owner months of opportunity to produce such a permit to demonstrate that we are wrong

339
00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:00,440
and somehow there is a permit and they're not in violation of the permit requirement.

340
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:09,160
They have not met that burden and therefore, you know, they have not demonstrated that this is,

341
00:31:09,300 --> 00:31:14,320
these are permitted improvements to say, you know, that there could have been a permit at some point,

342
00:31:14,460 --> 00:31:19,380
it could have been done part of the original construction, that's not enough.

343
00:31:19,380 --> 00:31:28,640
They actually have to demonstrate that that was, in fact, the case and the evidence is to the contrary here.

344
00:31:30,580 --> 00:31:39,620
Well, if the board would like to see, I was retained as I've indicated to the board about five days ago.

345
00:31:39,620 --> 00:31:51,800
We have a building permit that was issued by the city May 16, 1978.

346
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,720
It's an application for plumbing permits.

347
00:31:56,120 --> 00:32:07,940
It indicates that there are one gas system up to five outlets that was approved by the city.

348
00:32:07,940 --> 00:32:21,440
It does not provide any details of that, but that does not, man, there's a sign off and it's very difficult to read.

349
00:32:21,540 --> 00:32:23,420
It looks like November of 1978.

350
00:32:29,020 --> 00:32:31,280
We do not have access to the plans.

351
00:32:31,940 --> 00:32:34,080
If anyone does, it would be the city.

352
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:46,420
But there definitely was a permit issued back in 1978 that would, at least on its face, cover the installation of the gas lines.

353
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:53,960
And if I can share my screen, I can show those to the board if the board wishes.

354
00:32:54,580 --> 00:32:56,780
Assuming I can figure out how to do that.

355
00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:01,680
Let me go to the board to find out what questions they may have.

356
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:08,720
And if they have a question that relates to you showing it, we can work with the technology to see how we get that to happen.

357
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:14,340
So board members, any of you have any questions for the appellate.

358
00:33:15,220 --> 00:33:16,680
I have one.

359
00:33:17,500 --> 00:33:18,580
Me too.

360
00:33:19,340 --> 00:33:20,860
Now, any medical first.

361
00:33:21,780 --> 00:33:23,060
Thank you.

362
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:23,840
Thank you.

363
00:33:24,460 --> 00:33:24,740
Thank you.

364
00:33:24,740 --> 00:33:29,960
And my question is maybe a city can answer that.

365
00:33:30,140 --> 00:33:32,460
Do we have the plant original plant?

366
00:33:33,060 --> 00:33:37,000
And 90, 78 or any other plant from that.

367
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:41,760
The information I have from my client

368
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,200
is that the city doesn't have any plans

369
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,920
for anything that was constructed prior to 1997.

370
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:51,680
So it is not, and which is certainly not

371
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:53,440
the problem of the appellant.

372
00:33:55,140 --> 00:33:58,640
But I'm sure the city attorney or Mr.

373
00:33:59,380 --> 00:34:04,200
Brantley or Mr. Sours can confirm whether that statement is true.

374
00:34:05,100 --> 00:34:08,000
But without those plans and without access to the plans,

375
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:13,460
we are no more able to prove a negative than the city has.

376
00:34:16,020 --> 00:34:20,000
And you said you have five options.

377
00:34:20,980 --> 00:34:24,120
Do we have how coming up is great now?

378
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:32,480
I do not know how many outlets there are. The gas system, the original permit in 1978,

379
00:34:34,060 --> 00:34:40,140
says gas system up to five outlets and they charge of what appears to be $50.

380
00:34:41,740 --> 00:34:47,280
For no, $5. It's $5.00 in low quality $36.00 in 50 cents.

381
00:34:47,700 --> 00:34:53,000
Yes. And what I like, can I speak now on this retirement? That's okay if I can add two things.

382
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,120
So you're answering board member and as Reane's question?

383
00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:57,580
Okay.

384
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:00,020
The city has...

385
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:13,300
Kind of did the gas outlet, and we looked at it from perspective of one would be for water heater, one possibly for a forced area unit, one for a cooktop, one for an oven and one for positive gas dryer, getting to the five.

386
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:17,540
Thank you.

387
00:35:17,860 --> 00:35:18,700
Any other questions?

388
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:23,200
May I just clarify whether that's a statement of factor in the statement of opinion?

389
00:35:23,860 --> 00:35:24,900
Just a statement of opinion.

390
00:35:26,240 --> 00:35:26,840
Thank you.

391
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:28,160
Thank you.

392
00:35:28,620 --> 00:35:28,940
Okay.

393
00:35:36,820 --> 00:35:45,780
Thank you. Mr. Ray, this is a letter I'm holding dated June 21st from you to Mr.

394
00:35:46,540 --> 00:35:52,540
Brentley and Mr. Sours, and we have a number one preliminary statement and then number

395
00:35:52,540 --> 00:36:00,500
the mere existence of the barbecue does not violate 2019 residential code section is 1 0 5 1 0 5 2.

396
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,100
Prior to that. Do you have the same letter in front of you sir?

397
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:11,620
Yes, I do. Okay, the last paragraph, the staff report indicates the dispute began when Mr.

398
00:36:13,100 --> 00:36:17,860
following an e-mail from Debracolor, the Golden List Property Management, representing the

399
00:36:17,860 --> 00:36:24,750
Association contacted Mr. Kohler, who advised him there was a strong smell of gas coming

400
00:36:24,750 --> 00:36:31,950
from the rear yard of the property that report has clearly patently fallen since, as indicated

401
00:36:31,950 --> 00:36:43,010
by the staff report, the gas line to the barbecue had been disconnected on March 11, 17, 2017 by the

402
00:36:43,010 --> 00:36:45,490
connection request by the appellant was denied.

403
00:36:47,900 --> 00:36:52,360
And staffs inspection of the barbeque does not indicate that the gasline had ever been reconnected.

404
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:59,540
Appellant or anyone on their behalf as the testimony of the appellant will establish

405
00:37:00,140 --> 00:37:05,640
Appellants have never used the gas, have never used the barbeque as a gas barbeque.

406
00:37:05,740 --> 00:37:09,640
No one stole the gas line. What have they been using it for?

407
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:14,400
My understanding is that there's simply been used as a charcoal barbecue.

408
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:22,880
So they are using it, they're using it as an outdoor fire feature cooking appliance.

409
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:34,120
But in the Associations action, against my clients, when they saw the preliminary injunction,

410
00:37:34,940 --> 00:37:39,360
they had a declaration from his color and from the next door neighbor, Ms. Chavez, who

411
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:46,480
also by coincidence happens to be a vice president of the association in which they both said

412
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:59,360
that there was a strong smell of light of charcoal fluid, not gas. They had no place in any

413
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:05,020
declaration to the indicate that they ever smelled gas. The only reason I would submit them

414
00:38:05,900 --> 00:38:13,500
and Miss Chavez or Miss Colour indicated to city is that there was a strong smell of gas

415
00:38:13,500 --> 00:38:25,080
is so that they could obtain the assistance of the city in manufacturing their claim against my client.

416
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:38,960
Because there simply could not be a gas smell coming from the patio if there is no gas connection outside of the patio that has been turned on by the gas company.

417
00:38:40,100 --> 00:38:43,080
Okay, there's a second part of this question and thank you for hanging in there with me.

418
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:50,860
March 11, 2017, the disconnection by so-called gas company, correct?

419
00:38:51,500 --> 00:39:03,960
Yeah, an October 5, 2020 prior to that, they requested that the gas be turned on and they were denied.

420
00:39:04,380 --> 00:39:04,680
Is that right?

421
00:39:05,060 --> 00:39:06,100
That is correct.

422
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:07,420
Okay, that is my understanding.

423
00:39:08,700 --> 00:39:12,220
And in the October 5th day was not prior to it was after the disconnection.

424
00:39:17,260 --> 00:39:21,820
The disconnect states here was March 11, 2017, so that's going to correct?

425
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:27,160
So you're saying that the request for reconnect was after that?

426
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:27,560
Oh, yes.

427
00:39:27,660 --> 00:39:31,000
My client didn't even open the property until August of 2020.

428
00:39:35,220 --> 00:39:38,920
Did they give you a reason why the gas was disconnected?

429
00:39:40,020 --> 00:39:42,660
The appellant did he give you a reason why the gas was disconnected?

430
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:59,540
My understanding is that the appellant does not know he was not, he was not there, it was disconnected as any normal homeowner would do who was not put on notice by the prior owner that there was any problem with the barbecue or anything else.

431
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:15,280
And we do have the seller questionnaire to establish that. Once they purchase the property, they wanted to use the gas barbecue as a gas barbecue, and they asked that it be reconnected.

432
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:23,760
three years out of the firm down. That's just normal homeowner conduct. Thank you. There's

433
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:29,180
certainly weren't trying to violate or breach any obligation owed to the city because until

434
00:40:29,180 --> 00:40:34,640
at that point in time, they had no knowledge that there was a problem with the gas barbecue.

435
00:40:36,570 --> 00:40:44,330
Thank you, Peru. So is that a dress here two questions yet? It does. Thank you. Okay, Jonathan.

436
00:40:46,110 --> 00:40:50,390
If it's being determined that this gas line is disconnected,

437
00:40:52,410 --> 00:40:58,330
what type of permit is a city requesting that the gas line is obtained.

438
00:41:00,670 --> 00:41:02,590
I can answer that if you'd like.

439
00:41:04,830 --> 00:41:05,570
Go ahead.

440
00:41:05,570 --> 00:41:10,490
at this point the gas line has been disconnected. If you look at the, if you have

441
00:41:10,490 --> 00:41:12,470
a staff report in front of you by any chance,

442
00:41:17,380 --> 00:41:21,480
the board, Chairman Galver, do you have the staff

443
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:22,060
report?

444
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:33,140
I'm sorry. Yes sir. Okay. If you look at page 7 and you look at page 8,

445
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:42,540
you'll see two stuff out. That's how the gas is reconnected is with a flex line. To reconnect

446
00:41:42,540 --> 00:41:47,000
it would be very simple with the shut off on one end and reconnection with a flex line.

447
00:41:47,420 --> 00:41:53,720
And if you flip to this page, number 9 you'll see some page 8 where it goes through the wall

448
00:41:53,720 --> 00:41:59,020
and comes out and goes under a slab and then services the barbecue. At this point in time

449
00:41:59,820 --> 00:42:05,860
we'd love the appellant to obtain a permit to either get it scored away, get it connected,

450
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:10,840
get it inspected, make sure the gas test is done properly, make sure there are no gas

451
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:17,900
If that's not what they wish to do, then proper abandonment is what we would be seeking at this point.

452
00:42:20,780 --> 00:42:24,900
And that abandonment would require what?

453
00:42:27,930 --> 00:42:30,570
Personally, I'm willing to work with the appellant.

454
00:42:31,090 --> 00:42:35,830
So to sever the gas line at the slab, rather than having to completely tear apart the slab,

455
00:42:35,830 --> 00:42:37,770
So, over the gas line, the slab,

456
00:42:40,410 --> 00:42:44,610
I can, on the back side of the garage, that's feeding the barbecue at this point.

457
00:42:45,170 --> 00:42:53,110
And so, over the gas connection at the barbecue, and then have that infected, we would consider that to be demolished at this point.

458
00:42:54,210 --> 00:43:05,010
With respect to the electrical line, if they like to keep it, that's fine. Let's get it watertight, GFI protected, get a permit for it, make sure that the wiring is correct.

459
00:43:05,010 --> 00:43:12,610
Make sure it's connected to the circuit breaker that's correct and let's get it scored away. We haven't that's all we want them to do

460
00:43:12,610 --> 00:43:14,690
Any other questions

461
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:23,520
So the ability he could he can he can remove the

462
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:32,440
Conduct or he could remove the gas line back to the point connection and that was he and at the same time the connection the barbecue server that and

463
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:33,640
It's done

464
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:36,180
Thank you.

465
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:41,300
The total permit costs for that would be $301.

466
00:43:41,540 --> 00:43:44,740
It's probably due inspections.

467
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:50,440
So board member, Jack, did you have a follow-up question?

468
00:43:51,500 --> 00:43:52,560
I might even catch that.

469
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:57,340
The outlet serving the barbecue is not ground fault protected.

470
00:43:57,600 --> 00:43:59,100
That is correct sir.

471
00:43:59,100 --> 00:44:13,580
I need to see that if you go to page, on the staff report, if you go to page 12, but OF, you'll see it's no GFI, there's no water proof connection, I want to test it at time, but it's raining.

472
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:20,820
And I did not till say checking the wiring at that point due to water and non GFI protected.

473
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:23,180
Thank you very much. You're welcome.

474
00:44:23,820 --> 00:44:27,080
Any other questions for the pellet from the board?

475
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:29,280
I have a question.

476
00:44:30,340 --> 00:44:31,020
Go ahead.

477
00:44:31,660 --> 00:44:36,960
What kind of materials were used to run the gas line and where is the gas line run through

478
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:42,280
the slab that runs through the house or what would part of the slab of that it run through?

479
00:44:42,700 --> 00:44:45,420
It looks like I can't tell because it's painted.

480
00:44:45,820 --> 00:44:46,880
I mean, no.

481
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:49,220
Mr. McFarlane.

482
00:44:50,100 --> 00:44:53,660
But it appears to be either galvanized black pipe.

483
00:44:53,900 --> 00:44:54,700
I have no idea.

484
00:44:55,300 --> 00:44:59,440
and what happened was that we're very nice patty on the backyard and to help the

485
00:44:59,440 --> 00:44:59,920
Hell it with...

486
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:11,740
On him to tear it up because at one point, it was a slab in somebody's pebble text. And it's nice. We'd like to just see it severed at that point and severed back at the bar with you to preserve the patio's integrity.

487
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:26,060
And then go back inside the garage and remove the gas line to that point, plug up the wall. So that's the problem that I have no idea what to use for gas piping. So if you want to keep it, that's fine, but that point will all need to be exposed.

488
00:45:26,060 --> 00:45:35,340
So that way we can check out the validity of the material used, and at that point, a gas test would be required, and we do the inspection based on chapter 12 at that point.

489
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:45,420
And again, my clients bought the property in August of 2020. They have absolutely no idea how this was constructed.

490
00:45:47,980 --> 00:45:48,320
Understood.

491
00:45:49,780 --> 00:45:54,060
So, Mr. McFarlane Boardman, did that answer your questions? Do you have a follow-up?

492
00:45:54,060 --> 00:46:02,880
All right, I do have a statement to make the, it was black iron that's not permitted in the ground, you're not allowed to use that other than above ground on the inside.

493
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:10,240
And the, you know, as if the patio has a roof covering, you're not allowed to run the gas piping through the slab.

494
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:13,040
There's a roof covering is just a slab.

495
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:13,900
Okay.

496
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:19,280
You can, you can tell all the board members are taking a grant, cancha.

497
00:46:19,720 --> 00:46:23,640
May I ask Mr. Sowers what question?

498
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:31,860
Mr. Sowers, did you ever determine whether the electrical outlets that is shown

499
00:46:31,860 --> 00:46:37,540
on photo F on page 12 of the report is connected to anything?

500
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:43,540
Like I said, in my earlier statement, it was raining that day and that did not go comfortable

501
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:49,700
going and checking that number one, number two, our inspection warrant was limited to

502
00:46:49,700 --> 00:46:53,040
specifically the barbecue and it did and it does not have

503
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:56,600
authorization to go back into the garage and ask the

504
00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,980
appellant to remove anything or to, you know, to uncover anything.

505
00:47:00,580 --> 00:47:03,140
We stuck to exactly with the inspection warrant.

506
00:47:03,820 --> 00:47:04,840
Limit this, too.

507
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:10,080
So if the plug is not connected to electrical wiring,

508
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:12,120
it doesn't still create a problem.

509
00:47:12,780 --> 00:47:14,640
It would need to be abandoned because at that point

510
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:17,680
time it could easily be reconnected if it's running condo it

511
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:20,060
to be very simple to reconnect.

512
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:22,240
But at that point, you have two options either.

513
00:47:22,420 --> 00:47:25,380
You disconnect it, remove it, put a brick in its place,

514
00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:28,300
check out all the wiring, as well as the conduit,

515
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:31,220
and wherever's back at the service panel,

516
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:33,960
or legalize it, and go through the process.

517
00:47:35,020 --> 00:47:35,760
Thank you.

518
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:36,280
You're welcome.

519
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:38,080
Okay, moving on.

520
00:47:38,780 --> 00:47:44,280
So, thank you, does anyone from the city

521
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:45,920
have questions for the appellate?

522
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:58,920
And again, please note there's a five minute limit on questions and the questions must be related to compliance issue and related to code sections and I may stop you if those guidelines are not followed.

523
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:15,500
The only question I would have for the appellant is, do they have any permit in their possession or any evidence that either the electrical line or the gas line was actually permitted.

524
00:48:15,500 --> 00:48:19,360
Well, here's the difficulty that we have.

525
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:24,780
The only, it's a question to the appellum itself not to counsel.

526
00:48:27,350 --> 00:48:28,950
Oh, yes.

527
00:48:29,110 --> 00:48:41,030
You have the original parents for the gas lines and the electrical wiring for the house.

528
00:48:41,030 --> 00:48:50,670
And there is no evidence that these permits don't cover the electrical lines and the gas lines going to the barbecue.

529
00:48:53,330 --> 00:48:57,410
These are probably built by the initial manufacturer and

530
00:49:00,060 --> 00:49:00,460
the permanent.

531
00:49:01,620 --> 00:49:03,680
And the permits are right here.

532
00:49:05,300 --> 00:49:11,900
Unless you can prove that it was built after and somebody didn't get a permit and there is no such proof.

533
00:49:17,750 --> 00:49:20,390
Yes, can we ask the appellant any questions?

534
00:49:22,340 --> 00:49:24,660
I guess the board members can always ask.

535
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:31,100
Three, do you know how that outlet to the BBQ was connected?

536
00:49:31,860 --> 00:49:33,900
Is that on a home run back to the panel?

537
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:35,620
Is it sliced off another outlet?

538
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:37,720
Can you explain that to me, please?

539
00:49:38,940 --> 00:49:42,600
Yes, there's just one outlet on the BBQ structure

540
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:45,020
that has no electricity to it and nothing.

541
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:57,400
It might have been built like 40 years ago and it was the wiring was taken out or it's just they left the outlet there.

542
00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:00,020
There's no electricity to it. There's nothing. There's nothing.

543
00:50:00,940 --> 00:50:10,760
There's no reason for you not to abandon the line. I mean, if it bothers the city, I can take out the outlet and just put it,

544
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:21,060
color on it. Okay. How about the gas line? Is that on a home run back to the meter or how, how is that barbecue fed? Do you know, you know the type of material?

545
00:50:23,370 --> 00:50:30,090
There's just a barbecue, there is no visible gas line that goes to it, there's nothing.

546
00:50:31,730 --> 00:50:38,330
Everything is on the ground and I don't know.

547
00:50:39,550 --> 00:50:46,490
Just a barbecue brick structure, anything on the ground that's connected to it, I don't know.

548
00:50:46,490 --> 00:50:48,430
And even if it was, if it's disconnected,

549
00:50:48,850 --> 00:50:52,450
all the ports are off, I mean, there's one gas port on it.

550
00:50:52,610 --> 00:50:54,230
It's hopefully open, there's nothing.

551
00:50:54,990 --> 00:50:58,910
It's just pipes on the ground, probably that were used

552
00:50:58,910 --> 00:51:01,790
a long time ago, and there's nothing.

553
00:51:01,990 --> 00:51:03,950
I mean, it's so, you're really not,

554
00:51:04,030 --> 00:51:06,410
you're really not too sure what's below grade

555
00:51:06,410 --> 00:51:07,130
is what you're showing.

556
00:51:08,690 --> 00:51:10,490
I don't know what's on their ground,

557
00:51:10,490 --> 00:51:10,910
connected.

558
00:51:11,310 --> 00:51:11,890
Thank you.

559
00:51:11,890 --> 00:51:12,210
Thank you.

560
00:51:12,230 --> 00:51:13,150
Thank you.

561
00:51:13,430 --> 00:51:13,550
Next.

562
00:51:14,450 --> 00:51:15,790
I appreciate you answering the question.

563
00:51:15,790 --> 00:51:23,670
Thank you very much sir. Okay, let's go back to does this, does anyone from the city have any questions for the appellant?

564
00:51:25,110 --> 00:51:29,610
Mr. Sherman, may I ask a question of Mr. Sours?

565
00:51:30,550 --> 00:51:45,750
Sure. Mr. Sours, the appellant has stated that in their view, the gas and electrical lines were part of the original construction of the house and were part of the original building permit.

566
00:51:46,610 --> 00:52:05,630
Can you comment on in your experience what I guess the likelihood or how common is it that a building permit for a house would include reference to an accessory structure like a barbecue on a condominium patio.

567
00:52:05,630 --> 00:52:07,410
So that's question number one.

568
00:52:08,110 --> 00:52:14,490
And number two, when you expected the nature of the construction,

569
00:52:15,310 --> 00:52:18,210
the gas line in particular, because as you said,

570
00:52:18,210 --> 00:52:22,850
you couldn't really inspect the electrical line other than just

571
00:52:22,850 --> 00:52:28,250
observe the on GFI protected outlet itself without a cover.

572
00:52:29,150 --> 00:52:31,710
But when you observed the gas line,

573
00:52:31,710 --> 00:52:55,050
Can you comment on the nature of that connection or that construction rather and the connections and comment on whether or not in your view it is reflective of what would be required to meet codes either today or presumably back in 1978 if in fact it were part of the original construction?

574
00:52:55,050 --> 00:53:02,030
So the answer to the first question, typically, I started in this business back in the early

575
00:53:02,030 --> 00:53:09,430
80s and into the obviously to now, and doing with multiple tracks and condominium projects,

576
00:53:09,510 --> 00:53:15,090
if anybody ever did anything with an accessory structure on a track tone or a condominium

577
00:53:15,090 --> 00:53:16,850
very, I'd never seen it happen.

578
00:53:17,030 --> 00:53:23,790
It's normally something that's done afterwards or possibly at the rarest point of view, it might

579
00:53:23,790 --> 00:53:32,570
a model. And this was never a model. This was done as a plan to be R. It was on a lot three unit

580
00:53:32,570 --> 00:53:38,750
five. And it was just, it was built to plan to be R, which would be the inside content as well

581
00:53:38,750 --> 00:53:47,730
as the outside to thought and things as that nature. As Mr. Medigalaham and as well as the

582
00:53:47,730 --> 00:53:53,150
his attorney indicated they had a gas cell. And they totally agree with that. It was done on

583
00:53:53,150 --> 00:53:59,010
16 to 78, but I listed the fly of items that was typically being included in something like that.

584
00:53:59,890 --> 00:54:06,030
And I've never seen anything like that be done at the time of construction, Mr. Bradley.

585
00:54:06,510 --> 00:54:07,910
I was just not the norm.

586
00:54:08,530 --> 00:54:15,330
With respect to the construction of it, from what I've read from the code in 1978,

587
00:54:15,330 --> 00:54:21,670
It's not a period that they adhere to the code, what's respected, they required a gas

588
00:54:21,670 --> 00:54:25,590
valve outlet that's visibly seen as a shock, connects, which they have there, but they

589
00:54:25,590 --> 00:54:31,790
also required another one back at the back side of the pipe, which I did not see.

590
00:54:32,270 --> 00:54:36,830
The same time, I have no idea what was used with respect to materials.

591
00:54:37,670 --> 00:54:44,250
The material is painted, and it goes back to board member Kalensky's question as well as

592
00:54:44,970 --> 00:54:46,210
What material is used?

593
00:54:46,410 --> 00:54:47,070
I have no idea.

594
00:54:47,210 --> 00:54:48,350
I don't know if it's black pipe.

595
00:54:48,650 --> 00:54:49,830
I don't know if it's galvanized pipe.

596
00:54:49,970 --> 00:54:51,950
If it's black pipe, it's never been allowed to go underground.

597
00:54:53,570 --> 00:54:56,070
So, from that perspective, I have no idea.

598
00:54:57,630 --> 00:54:59,950
And the points of connects.

599
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:08,500
In between the dryer, in the garage, with flex line connectors on them, is that typical construction? Go to compliant construction?

600
00:55:09,140 --> 00:55:22,060
No, typical construction, something like that, to go back into hard wire, excuse me, a hard pipe, and same time, we'd be a shut off valve at that point, to shut it off in case of servicing, or if there's ever an event of an emergency, you shut it off at the, at the cooked up itself.

601
00:55:22,660 --> 00:55:28,240
The flex connectors are normally an appliance connector in the event of an earthquake or something like that, they can move and have some movement.

602
00:55:28,240 --> 00:55:36,460
It would be hard, it would be hard to come back so that that and itself led me to believe that it possibly did not have a prevent that time.

603
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:46,160
And as well and during the inspection the flex line was a connection at the appliance, which was the cooktop which would have been a great place for a flex line.

604
00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:55,520
You're talking about the, the, the, the, the part the other demo the barbecue is struggling to be recently removed from the flex line that is still unpar

605
00:55:55,520 --> 00:56:06,740
And you can see the brass, and you can see that if you look at photo number as photo E on page 11 and that's where the flex connector go because that's where the

606
00:56:06,740 --> 00:56:10,000
the cook helps that on top of the barbecue structure at that point.

607
00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:13,880
And I think that would be exactly where the flex line would go, not back at the main connection.

608
00:56:15,910 --> 00:56:17,370
Yeah, there's a question of Mr. Sowers.

609
00:56:18,510 --> 00:56:18,910
Yes.

610
00:56:19,230 --> 00:56:20,050
Hold on a second.

611
00:56:20,050 --> 00:56:22,930
Hold on a second. I'd like to have a follow up to that one please.

612
00:56:22,930 --> 00:56:32,170
So, and I don't know who desks with dresses to other than, I'll make it open to either the city or the appellate.

613
00:56:33,090 --> 00:56:43,150
So, if this might have been a home builder accessory, did we see this in any of the other units?

614
00:56:44,050 --> 00:56:45,770
Did anybody else have this option?

615
00:56:47,850 --> 00:56:49,710
I have not seen it.

616
00:56:49,830 --> 00:56:52,030
I've done a couple of, we've done a few inspections out there.

617
00:56:52,090 --> 00:56:57,470
There was another barbecue that was done without a permit and since it's been cited

618
00:56:57,470 --> 00:57:02,370
and is going through the inspection process for permitting and it was never done at the time

619
00:57:02,370 --> 00:57:05,190
it was a building and that's the only one that I know of.

620
00:57:05,450 --> 00:57:08,470
The homeless association might be able to comment on that.

621
00:57:08,690 --> 00:57:11,340
I don't know.

622
00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:13,320
David, do you know anything about that?

623
00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:36,500
No, I'm not aware, but I do agree with Mr. Sowers when he said that it's not typical at all that we would see construction of an accessory nature like a barbecue not called out separately on a building permit as part of a production home for a builder.

624
00:57:38,320 --> 00:57:48,180
And that type of feature would normally only be part of like a model, a home that was

625
00:57:48,180 --> 00:57:49,280
serving as a model.

626
00:57:49,560 --> 00:57:55,700
They would have all those types of accessories and accoutrements in order to market the

627
00:57:55,700 --> 00:58:01,160
homes and the builder would pull those permits from the city and they would be reflected

628
00:58:01,160 --> 00:58:08,660
on separate permits or called out separately on on the permit for the the main the main structure

629
00:58:08,660 --> 00:58:17,140
it's in fact they kind of covered them by that original permit usually it's it's reflected

630
00:58:17,140 --> 00:58:23,300
on a separate permit however is that you're understanding to Mr. Sauer's. Yes and Mr. Chairman

631
00:58:23,300 --> 00:58:28,560
I'd like to read something for the 1978 woman code and basically what it states and talks about

632
00:58:29,180 --> 00:58:34,700
an accessible shot off valve, show of a tight step forth in the indicated indicates the

633
00:58:34,700 --> 00:58:39,460
subsection, shall be installed in the field supply piping outside of each appliance and a

634
00:58:39,460 --> 00:58:44,640
head of the Union connection, and in addition there to the valve at the appliance side as well,

635
00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:49,040
so they're calling out to certain, and this never really coincided with that, and then it also

636
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:56,360
talks about the gas piping, and I did not see that as being apparent with respect to the

637
00:58:56,360 --> 00:58:59,300
the 76 uniform plumbing cuts.

638
00:58:59,980 --> 00:59:04,120
Okay, now, I'm sorry, I didn't catch who I talked over,

639
00:59:04,220 --> 00:59:07,820
sorry, who is looking to ask a question.

640
00:59:09,980 --> 00:59:10,680
I am at a rate.

641
00:59:11,220 --> 00:59:14,440
Okay, thank you, thank you for letting me go,

642
00:59:14,620 --> 00:59:15,920
sorry if I talked over you.

643
00:59:16,120 --> 00:59:16,960
That's okay.

644
00:59:19,460 --> 00:59:20,800
Mr. Sowers, were you working

645
00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:22,080
for the city in 1978?

646
00:59:22,940 --> 00:59:23,520
No sir.

647
00:59:24,820 --> 00:59:28,040
So you have no idea what their standards were 1978.

648
00:59:28,040 --> 00:59:29,460
from your personal knowledge.

649
00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:31,080
No, I do not.

650
00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:32,920
Other than what I've seen on the,

651
00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:33,260
okay.

652
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:36,240
Hang on, thank you for being here for three and a half years

653
00:59:36,240 --> 00:59:38,920
and doing permit research and history here

654
00:59:38,920 --> 00:59:40,280
for three and a half years.

655
00:59:44,340 --> 00:59:46,200
Or, and it is a correct set.

656
00:59:46,360 --> 00:59:48,860
The city does not maintain plaque for units

657
00:59:48,860 --> 00:59:50,760
going back to as far.

658
00:59:51,100 --> 00:59:52,280
That is correct.

659
00:59:53,660 --> 00:59:54,860
And Mr. Bradley, you indicated

660
00:59:54,860 --> 00:59:58,520
that it would be unusual for this structure

661
00:59:58,520 --> 00:59:59,920
to exist unless it was...

662
01:00:01,040 --> 01:00:04,340
Do you know if this was a model home?

663
01:00:06,620 --> 01:00:13,260
Yes, Mr. Chair, to respond to Mr. Ray, as indicated by Mr. Sowers and his earlier comments, the permit

664
01:00:13,260 --> 01:00:19,720
does not reflect that this was a model, and it would have, if it would have been a model.

665
01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:23,860
So it presumably is just a regular production unit.

666
01:00:23,860 --> 01:00:27,500
Yeah. And that was true, even in 1978,

667
01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:35,600
that client, I believe that is the case, but I

668
01:00:36,760 --> 01:00:43,180
wasn't doing this in 1978, so I can't attest to that. I can just say this on the permit history

669
01:00:43,180 --> 01:00:49,680
that we've done on various track tones around here, those condominiums they do call out specifically

670
01:00:49,680 --> 01:00:57,640
model 1, 2, 3, and after going through an extensive re-model and going back through multiple

671
01:00:58,400 --> 01:01:06,020
tracks as well as countless items in permit history, we've noticed that every track from the

672
01:01:06,020 --> 01:01:11,720
60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 2000s indicated the models and what they planned on doing with the models.

673
01:01:14,440 --> 01:01:21,140
All right. Moving on, does the Board wish to entertain any additional testimony from the city staff

674
01:01:21,140 --> 01:01:22,520
or the appellant.

675
01:01:24,380 --> 01:01:26,420
Just for stitching salad.

676
01:01:29,130 --> 01:01:30,590
Okay, yeah.

677
01:01:31,170 --> 01:01:36,430
Um, if the owner doesn't want to use the system, um,

678
01:01:36,430 --> 01:01:37,910
barbecue or anything like that.

679
01:01:38,470 --> 01:01:41,990
And they are willing to remove the electrical sticks,

680
01:01:42,250 --> 01:01:43,590
which is not working.

681
01:01:45,590 --> 01:01:47,510
And still, city has any problems,

682
01:01:47,630 --> 01:01:51,090
because they are not doing any repair or anything like that.

683
01:01:51,090 --> 01:02:00,090
And do you want them to be moved for barbecue or yeah, if they don't want to fix it, what's if you want it here?

684
01:02:01,130 --> 01:02:04,810
First of all, the city has never had an issue with the structure itself.

685
01:02:04,990 --> 01:02:08,670
It's only been the gas line and the electrical line.

686
01:02:09,650 --> 01:02:20,670
If Mr. Manning would like to disconnect the gas line and disconnect the electrical line and do it per code and properly.

687
01:02:20,670 --> 01:02:22,830
I have no issue

688
01:02:26,090 --> 01:02:27,730
in yet a question.

689
01:02:29,670 --> 01:02:32,410
Well, I have one for the panelist by me.

690
01:02:35,030 --> 01:02:35,670
Sharim.

691
01:02:37,670 --> 01:02:41,110
Listening to all to listen to the information from both sides.

692
01:02:41,430 --> 01:02:50,030
It sounds to me like the source of power and the source of fuel.

693
01:02:50,030 --> 01:03:09,210
there is such a large unknown factor here. Why is it that you don't want to remove the existing gas line and the existing conduit containing the conductors back to the main service panel?

694
01:03:13,370 --> 01:03:23,770
I told the city that I'm not going to connect any gas to this or anything, and I can,

695
01:03:24,110 --> 01:03:31,970
the thing is that Mr. Sauer and his notice of violation said that we have to open the flap,

696
01:03:32,270 --> 01:03:38,610
the concrete, we have to bring it to something to open the entire patio,

697
01:03:38,610 --> 01:03:46,710
to break the concrete, he wants to open up the entire patio to look at the line that goes

698
01:03:46,710 --> 01:03:53,470
into the barbecue and then he said, and also maybe the barbecue itself. So he wants to destroy

699
01:03:53,470 --> 01:03:59,730
the barbecue to look at the lines, make sure that they're fine. I mean, the whole thing

700
01:03:59,730 --> 01:04:07,450
found that extremely malicious. If you read what he says in his notice of violation, that

701
01:04:07,450 --> 01:04:16,290
what he wants to do in order to issue a pyramid and he never mentioned about the abandonment

702
01:04:16,290 --> 01:04:21,350
in his notice of violation. He can say that, well, if you want to abandon it, he can do it this way.

703
01:04:22,710 --> 01:04:29,670
He wants to open up his intention to inflict massive damage to this thing, and now he says that,

704
01:04:29,670 --> 01:04:37,030
okay, if you just cut it off at the surface of the patio, it's fine. I think that's what he says.

705
01:04:37,030 --> 01:04:43,090
And what I said was you can sever it at the surface of the patio and at the same time go back to the

706
01:04:43,090 --> 01:04:52,470
to the barbecue structure itself and as long as it was done in a point that it could never be reconnected

707
01:04:52,470 --> 01:04:56,390
that we would be willing to work with with the appellant on that but

708
01:04:58,230 --> 01:05:00,010
I mean, to keep it, you would have to...

709
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:29,980
Those everything and do what you need to do. So in order to be working, you know, the bottom line is we want to get to a resolution of the abandonment or permitting of the, uh, of the gas line. So we're trying to find a resolution that's why we're here at the field. And I don't, in order to do it correctly, we might have to, to tear it up. I am hopeful that we don't have to. I mean, I'm trying to work with, you know, with whatever we can in order to get a proper abandonment.

710
01:05:30,000 --> 01:05:37,160
or proper, yes. And Mrs. Sauer has no evidence that there is any line going on the ground to

711
01:05:37,160 --> 01:05:41,840
the barbecue. There's nothing. It's just this structure. I don't think he has it's just this

712
01:05:41,840 --> 01:05:48,040
pipe sticking out of the something in the garage. He has no evidence that that pipe is connected to

713
01:05:48,040 --> 01:05:53,960
the barbecue. So, a speculation, there's one line in the barbecue in the garage and he's saying

714
01:05:53,960 --> 01:05:56,700
that is probably going into the barbecue.

715
01:05:57,520 --> 01:05:59,020
He never tested it.

716
01:05:59,100 --> 01:06:01,880
He came here on March 3rd to do that.

717
01:06:02,520 --> 01:06:03,720
And he never tested it.

718
01:06:03,740 --> 01:06:05,260
He just looked at things.

719
01:06:05,380 --> 01:06:06,420
He just looked at the barbecue

720
01:06:06,420 --> 01:06:08,120
and this thing sticking out of the garage.

721
01:06:08,420 --> 01:06:11,440
He's saying that it's probably going into the barbecue.

722
01:06:11,520 --> 01:06:12,860
That's what he's saying.

723
01:06:13,660 --> 01:06:16,720
I have one last question, and I appreciate your time, I do, sir.

724
01:06:17,820 --> 01:06:21,180
So the fact that you may or may not have a gas line,

725
01:06:21,180 --> 01:06:30,400
You may or may not have current running to conduct this below grade. Does not concern you at all?

726
01:06:31,140 --> 01:06:38,280
Well, there's nothing. I mean, you can dig up the thing, the patio to see if there is anything.

727
01:06:38,520 --> 01:06:44,360
You have to have evidence that there's something in there. I mean, you're saying that there might be a

728
01:06:44,360 --> 01:06:48,360
there, that's odd of coals inside the ground.

729
01:06:48,960 --> 01:06:54,800
Therefore, we have to dig it up to see if there is a pipe and if there is, I mean, you can do it.

730
01:06:54,900 --> 01:06:59,300
Then you have to go all over the place and dig up everybody's patio to see if there's anything

731
01:06:59,300 --> 01:06:59,780
there.

732
01:07:00,580 --> 01:07:01,680
You can do that.

733
01:07:02,080 --> 01:07:03,140
Thank you for your response.

734
01:07:05,750 --> 01:07:05,990
All right.

735
01:07:06,170 --> 01:07:07,270
So I'm going to ask again.

736
01:07:07,970 --> 01:07:14,090
So the board was to entertain any additional testimony from the city staff or the appellant.

737
01:07:16,350 --> 01:07:16,510
No.

738
01:07:16,510 --> 01:07:20,770
Here in nine, I will now close the time for testimony.

739
01:07:21,590 --> 01:07:25,570
There will be no more testimony accepted unless the requested by the board.

740
01:07:26,370 --> 01:07:29,190
We will now have an opportunity for public comment.

741
01:07:29,970 --> 01:07:33,830
Is there any member of the public who wishes to speak on this item?

742
01:07:34,170 --> 01:07:38,090
Note there is a three minute time limit for public comment.

743
01:07:40,440 --> 01:07:41,560
I would like to be

744
01:07:50,320 --> 01:07:51,140
from someone else.

745
01:07:51,180 --> 01:07:53,920
So what I'm going to do is I'm going to mute all right now.

746
01:07:53,920 --> 01:08:01,250
and then Ms. Fuller, I'm trying to mute it.

747
01:08:01,570 --> 01:08:02,050
I'm sorry.

748
01:08:02,050 --> 01:08:04,470
Here we go.

749
01:08:04,870 --> 01:08:05,730
Can you hear?

750
01:08:14,120 --> 01:08:14,120
Hello.

751
01:08:15,160 --> 01:08:17,660
Okay, Ms. Fuller, we can hear you. So go ahead.

752
01:08:18,100 --> 01:08:18,680
Yes, please.

753
01:08:19,240 --> 01:08:23,340
Hi. The only comment I wish to make is if Mr.

754
01:08:25,760 --> 01:08:26,240
Sharam's

755
01:08:26,240 --> 01:08:28,820
dissertation or explanation.

756
01:08:29,500 --> 01:08:31,300
This is, this is, this is Chairman Heinrich.

757
01:08:31,300 --> 01:08:33,760
Could you please identify who you are please,

758
01:08:33,760 --> 01:08:35,800
because the board probably doesn't know?

759
01:08:36,080 --> 01:08:37,340
Hi, I'm Deborah Coler.

760
01:08:37,400 --> 01:08:39,720
I actually managed the Ranch of Dominguez Town

761
01:08:39,720 --> 01:08:40,480
home association.

762
01:08:41,580 --> 01:08:42,820
OK, thank you.

763
01:08:50,960 --> 01:08:54,660
As a location of the barbecue is sticking point

764
01:08:54,660 --> 01:08:58,440
for the association, because it's built up against the garage

765
01:08:58,440 --> 01:09:00,880
wall, and the wood sensing, and we

766
01:09:00,880 --> 01:09:03,300
will be addressing that with the homeowner.

767
01:09:05,140 --> 01:09:13,500
My comment on the gas line is, Mr. Maglahine, do you have a gas stove?

768
01:09:17,270 --> 01:09:19,050
Chair Heinrich, I'm going to interrupt for a second.

769
01:09:19,490 --> 01:09:23,690
Yeah, public comment should address the board and they're welcome to address the board.

770
01:09:23,950 --> 01:09:29,430
But I don't think it's proper to fly or the questioning of the appellant.

771
01:09:29,430 --> 01:09:42,550
Okay, well, in my research, the gas lines that were run appropriately based on original homeowners

772
01:09:42,550 --> 01:09:47,090
who have owned, every patio was dirt.

773
01:09:48,050 --> 01:09:53,870
There are easements in the governing documents that talk about the gas line, and if something

774
01:09:53,870 --> 01:09:59,950
is built over the gas line if it needs to be worked on, that homeowner acknowledges that

775
01:10:00,340 --> 01:10:03,420
They must make access for that easement.

776
01:10:07,220 --> 01:10:25,140
So, from what I can understand and my limited knowledge is that the gas sign that would run into the home for either the fireplace and or the heater would have gone underground and would have been set by the builder.

777
01:10:26,610 --> 01:10:32,670
every home was an electric cell and an electric oven.

778
01:10:34,050 --> 01:10:39,610
All other appliances would have been electric kept set for the heater

779
01:10:39,610 --> 01:10:41,550
and or the fireplace.

780
01:10:43,030 --> 01:10:46,010
That's the only thing I want to bring up.

781
01:10:46,630 --> 01:10:47,630
All right, thank you.

782
01:10:48,090 --> 01:10:52,270
Are there any other members of the public that would like to address the board?

783
01:10:56,330 --> 01:10:59,710
Hearing none, I'll now close the public comment portion of the hearing.

784
01:10:59,710 --> 01:11:07,110
We will now discuss and deliberate at the end of our deliberation or at any time during the deliberation.

785
01:11:07,590 --> 01:11:10,770
I will entertain a motion from the board on this matter.

786
01:11:11,410 --> 01:11:17,530
The motion could either deny the appeal and uphold the bill in official decision,

787
01:11:18,210 --> 01:11:24,710
or it could be to modify or refer the bill in official decision.

788
01:11:24,710 --> 01:11:33,790
In determination to modify or reverse the billion officials' decision must be a vote of two thirds of the board's membership.

789
01:11:34,310 --> 01:11:37,190
In other words, by at least four votes.

790
01:11:37,950 --> 01:11:40,510
Our determination should be by resolution.

791
01:11:41,410 --> 01:11:49,430
There is a draft resolution in the agenda packet, but we can modify that resolution as we see fit.

792
01:11:49,430 --> 01:11:56,050
including I boys vote with the drafting of the resolution occurring after the meeting.

793
01:11:57,130 --> 01:12:03,670
So here's the part where the board members deliberate if there is a motion, I will entertain one.

794
01:12:20,770 --> 01:12:22,510
Don't everybody go shy on me.

795
01:12:30,210 --> 01:12:32,490
I see Ron talking, but I he's mute.

796
01:12:34,530 --> 01:12:36,010
I can enter a motion.

797
01:12:36,010 --> 01:12:46,350
I believe we should stay with what the billing officials find memes are and go along with what he wishes the homeowner to do.

798
01:12:46,710 --> 01:12:47,890
I second that motion.

799
01:12:48,490 --> 01:12:55,810
So we have a first and a second to adopt the resolution as part of the agenda packet.

800
01:13:00,520 --> 01:13:12,060
So I'd like to, at that point, Steven, do we ask the Arlene to call for a vote?

801
01:13:13,820 --> 01:13:19,000
Yes, so, Chair Heinrich, at this point, I mean, you are free to continue to discuss the motion that's on the table.

802
01:13:19,460 --> 01:13:26,900
But if you are, when, if and when you are finished your discussion, you would ask Arlene to call a roll call, call vote, and you will each vote.

803
01:13:26,900 --> 01:13:36,560
Any board members have any additional conversation, deliberation, that before we call for the vote.

804
01:13:40,570 --> 01:13:43,210
Hearing none, Arlene, please call for the vote.

805
01:13:48,270 --> 01:13:48,910
Who is ski?

806
01:13:49,390 --> 01:13:49,790
Yes.

807
01:13:50,470 --> 01:13:51,030
That's Ar?

808
01:13:51,450 --> 01:13:51,890
No.

809
01:13:52,850 --> 01:13:53,670
Goal of Ar?

810
01:13:54,730 --> 01:13:55,010
Yes.

811
01:13:55,570 --> 01:13:56,230
McFarlane.

812
01:13:58,310 --> 01:14:00,070
Motion carries four to zero.

813
01:14:00,990 --> 01:14:02,170
That's Ar voting no.

814
01:14:06,230 --> 01:14:17,210
All right. Thank you very much. I will now turn to the second item to be heard. This is an appeal of case number CC-DAS-044026.

815
01:14:18,150 --> 01:14:24,270
This concerns the notice of violation dated May 5 2021 provided to the Appellants.

816
01:14:26,150 --> 01:14:29,550
I will ask the names we read in again because I'm still not good at this.

817
01:14:34,990 --> 01:14:41,690
Perhaps you can ask the appellant to just identify himself so we have the proper.

818
01:14:41,790 --> 01:14:43,170
That would be perfect.

819
01:14:43,310 --> 01:14:43,990
That's the issue.

820
01:14:49,140 --> 01:14:50,360
What you're muted, sorry.

821
01:14:55,180 --> 01:14:56,420
Sharon Manny Golem.

822
01:14:57,160 --> 01:14:58,400
Thank you so very much.

823
01:15:00,020 --> 01:15:15,120
And concerns an exterior, electrical, light features. In the record are the following documents. On April 5, 2021, the city service served a courtesy notice to the appellant.

824
01:15:15,120 --> 01:15:30,500
This was followed by a final notice of violation provided to the appellant on both April 20 and May 5, 2021 on May 12, 2021, the appellant submitted a request for appeal.

825
01:15:31,460 --> 01:15:40,860
On June 3, 2021, the appellant was notified that a hearing would be scheduled to hear an appeal on June 14, 2021.

826
01:15:40,860 --> 01:15:44,960
that the Appalachian request the hearing was rescheduled for today.

827
01:15:45,880 --> 01:15:51,640
Also on June 3, 2021, the Appalachian was provided a copy of the Procedures

828
01:15:51,640 --> 01:15:56,700
Epical to this hearing as well as a copy of the city's written documented

829
01:15:56,700 --> 01:16:03,080
documentation submitted to the board. On June 21, 2021, the Appalachian

830
01:16:03,080 --> 01:16:11,250
council submitted a letter to the board that that letter was provided to the board and to the city staff.

831
01:16:12,340 --> 01:16:17,700
Neither the city nor the appellant have notified the board that they intended to call any witnesses.

832
01:16:18,300 --> 01:16:24,020
Accordingly, no witness testimony will be heard today. I will now invite the city staff

833
01:16:24,020 --> 01:16:29,860
to provide a presentation to the board and again there's a 15 minute time limit.

834
01:16:29,860 --> 01:16:30,500
lead.

835
01:16:38,460 --> 01:16:39,980
You're muted, Mr. Stowers.

836
01:16:43,540 --> 01:16:45,300
Thank you. Thank you for the help, David.

837
01:16:46,600 --> 01:16:51,120
The second item on the agenda is a notice of violation regarding exterior lighting,

838
01:16:51,440 --> 01:16:58,340
attached to a residence located at 211-29B at Canada. On March 29, 2021, building

839
01:16:58,340 --> 01:17:03,060
division received a name mail. Excuse me regarding two unpromitted light pictures that were

840
01:17:03,060 --> 01:17:07,540
installed on the reference address. A subsequent research of permit history was completed

841
01:17:07,540 --> 01:17:11,060
and no permits were found for newly attached exterior light pictures.

842
01:17:11,700 --> 01:17:15,260
Thus, in no violation was sent to the owner in April 5th, 2021.

843
01:17:16,060 --> 01:17:19,800
With additional follow-up notices sent on April 20th, 2021,

844
01:17:20,180 --> 01:17:22,620
and may 5th, 2021 by a good enforcement.

845
01:17:23,360 --> 01:17:26,420
The homeowner has requested the appeal of the most of the violations.

846
01:17:27,320 --> 01:17:31,200
The property owner appealed claiming that the light picture is exempt from the permit

847
01:17:31,200 --> 01:17:38,120
requirement under California Building Code Section 105.2 work exempt from permit, specifically

848
01:17:38,120 --> 01:17:44,580
under Electrical with a focus on replacement of lamps. Staff findings are based on the following

849
01:17:44,580 --> 01:17:53,800
code definitions, codes, section references, and energy code ACE. 2019 California Building Code

850
01:17:53,800 --> 01:18:03,360
In 2019 California Residential Code, Section 105.1 and 105.2, Electrical Item 1, repairs and maintenance,

851
01:18:03,840 --> 01:18:08,700
minor repair work including the replacement of lamps or the connection of approved portable

852
01:18:08,700 --> 01:18:12,780
lecture equipment to an approved permanently installed receptacles.

853
01:18:13,660 --> 01:18:17,520
2019 California Energy Code defines lamp as the following.

854
01:18:18,140 --> 01:18:22,780
An electrical appliance that produces an optical radiation for the purpose of visual

855
01:18:23,840 --> 01:18:29,320
Designed with a base to provide an electrical connection between the lamp and a luminaire.

856
01:18:30,160 --> 01:18:32,100
And it's designed to be installed into a luminaire.

857
01:18:32,580 --> 01:18:38,000
A lamp is not a luminaire and is not an LED retro set kit.

858
01:18:38,800 --> 01:18:42,480
2019 energy code defines a luminaire as a complete lighting unit,

859
01:18:42,720 --> 01:18:44,720
consisting of a light source.

860
01:18:44,880 --> 01:18:50,320
This is a lamp for lamps together with the parts that distribute light position

861
01:18:50,320 --> 01:18:53,860
to protect the light source and connect to a power supply.

862
01:18:54,620 --> 01:18:59,520
Energy code A is a program funded by Pacific Gas and Electric,

863
01:18:59,820 --> 01:19:04,400
San Diego Gas and Electric, Southern California and Southern California Gas Company,

864
01:19:05,020 --> 01:19:06,920
and is zetted by the California Energy Commission.

865
01:19:07,440 --> 01:19:12,320
California Code A says released a publication online that clearly defines

866
01:19:12,880 --> 01:19:17,520
that clarifies these definitions by further elaborating that a light bulb

867
01:19:17,520 --> 01:19:20,940
or similar, separable lighting components.

868
01:19:21,800 --> 01:19:46,560
Other findings were 2019 California Electrical Code, California Article 89, California Code provisions, section 89, 0.108, 4.1, permits and section 89, 0.108, 4.4, inspections, 2019 California Energy Code, section 100, 0.1, definitions, alterations,

869
01:19:46,560 --> 01:19:56,460
Lamp, Luminare, Section 1, 50.2, B, Alterations, J, Lighting, Section 150, K, Resonance, Lighting,

870
01:19:56,480 --> 01:20:00,020
Item 3, Resonance, Lout, Door Lighting, and Table 1, 5.

871
01:20:00,000 --> 01:20:25,580
0.0-a, classification of high-efficancy light sources, euroblender, ordinance, number 2, 019-1065, article 9, 5.7, permit, article 95.10 compliance, article 95.11 inspection, but a zambian, the staff report, reference the light pictures and questions. I am available for questions.

872
01:20:27,690 --> 01:20:33,610
All right, thank you. Does any board member have questions for the city staff?

873
01:20:39,370 --> 01:20:40,490
No, I do not.

874
01:20:44,140 --> 01:20:49,860
Well, then I guess I do. So do we know what this replaced?

875
01:20:54,290 --> 01:20:59,710
I do not know. I'm assuming the regular or regular light fixture.

876
01:21:00,850 --> 01:21:04,490
Okay. Well, maybe I can ask that when the appellant gives their presentation.

877
01:21:04,490 --> 01:21:17,650
All right. Thank you. Does the appellant have any questions for the steady staff and please note there's a five minute limit on questions questions must be related to the compliance issue and related code section.

878
01:21:17,730 --> 01:21:22,070
And I may stop you if those guidelines are not followed. Thank you.

879
01:21:24,940 --> 01:21:26,700
Any questions from the appellant.

880
01:21:28,660 --> 01:21:38,800
This is Emma rate representing the appellant. Do you know whether a light fixture was there before this current light fixture was installed?

881
01:21:38,800 --> 01:21:39,680
I

882
01:21:41,920 --> 01:21:42,720
do not.

883
01:21:43,260 --> 01:21:52,560
Did you see any evidence that new electrical wiring had been placed through the walls of the exterior to the patio?

884
01:21:55,440 --> 01:22:04,120
If this is in fact just the replacement of one light fixture by another light fixture, does that require a building permit?

885
01:22:05,960 --> 01:22:09,420
And it has to conform to the California energy code as well.

886
01:22:11,430 --> 01:22:20,490
And which provision requires that the replacement of one light picture for another light picture requires a building permit.

887
01:22:21,090 --> 01:22:27,590
It falls back under the California building code and goes back under section 105.2 the electrical item.

888
01:22:27,590 --> 01:22:31,950
or specifically exempt lamps, which this is not a lamp,

889
01:22:32,430 --> 01:22:34,750
this is actually a fixture and a room in here.

890
01:22:35,150 --> 01:22:36,350
So at that point, since the exemption

891
01:22:36,350 --> 01:22:39,370
is only applies to a lamp, which is a light bulb,

892
01:22:39,950 --> 01:22:44,390
has defined by energy code as well as in the energy code.

893
01:22:44,670 --> 01:22:46,310
When you start changing out light pictures,

894
01:22:47,690 --> 01:22:50,970
the whole fixture itself, that's when it requires a building for that.

895
01:22:51,430 --> 01:22:52,690
At the same time on an exterior,

896
01:22:52,850 --> 01:22:55,170
we want to make sure that obviously it's watertight

897
01:22:55,170 --> 01:23:01,410
And make sure it complies with the motion sensor, whatever the case may be that he's decided to put in.

898
01:23:01,450 --> 01:23:03,350
And let me quickly add to that.

899
01:23:03,710 --> 01:23:07,770
I think Jim was referencing 105.1 is the permit requirement.

900
01:23:08,190 --> 01:23:13,950
What I want to do is just the exemption when you're not required to get a permit.

901
01:23:14,230 --> 01:23:20,170
And 105.1 actually specifically calls out along with plumbing and gas.

902
01:23:20,170 --> 01:23:24,550
it does call out on, you know, any any improvement to electrical.

903
01:23:25,710 --> 01:23:31,170
So the appellan is actually raised an exception to that rule in 105.2,

904
01:23:32,050 --> 01:23:35,470
but that only refers to the replacement of lamps.

905
01:23:35,870 --> 01:23:39,170
And that's why there was an explanation of what a lamp is

906
01:23:39,750 --> 01:23:44,450
in contrast to a luminear being a light bulb, which is a lamp versus a luminear,

907
01:23:44,610 --> 01:23:47,450
which is the actual picture, which is what was replaced here.

908
01:23:47,450 --> 01:23:57,450
Okay, so just to clarify, he's not accused of violating the exemption provision, 105.2.

909
01:23:58,430 --> 01:24:00,370
We know part of the charge against him.

910
01:24:00,530 --> 01:24:10,270
No, he's the one who's relied on 105.2 to claim that he was not required to get a permit.

911
01:24:11,410 --> 01:24:15,630
The reference in the notes of violation was to 105.1 which is the permit requirement.

912
01:24:15,630 --> 01:24:26,160
and 105.2 maybe the bottom of page one of the June 14, 2001 building board of appeals staff report.

913
01:24:26,720 --> 01:24:31,660
Again, that's just references all relevant code sections.

914
01:24:32,520 --> 01:24:37,500
But the notes of violation refer to the 105.1, that's the violation, not getting a permit.

915
01:24:42,000 --> 01:24:47,620
Okay, so I guess I have another question I should have asked it, like previous one.

916
01:24:48,860 --> 01:24:56,340
So I assume that we don't have two options with this one, like we did with the last one.

917
01:24:56,860 --> 01:24:59,740
You can't just remove it and leave stuff hanging there.

918
01:25:00,000 --> 01:25:05,880
So, what is the city's desired resolution?

919
01:25:08,850 --> 01:25:13,110
I've taken a building permit, have it inspected and put in a proper light picture.

920
01:25:14,310 --> 01:25:18,250
And I'm assuming, I don't know if it's a proper light picture, so obviously we haven't done the inspection.

921
01:25:19,490 --> 01:25:25,490
Okay, and did you do any estimate like you did on the last one of what I did?

922
01:25:25,610 --> 01:25:31,870
It would be $170.50, however, if we were to put in the gas line, electrical outlets,

923
01:25:31,870 --> 01:25:36,330
as well as the two light fixtures, it still pulls us a 350 for everything.

924
01:25:38,050 --> 01:25:39,190
Okay, thank you.

925
01:25:41,120 --> 01:25:46,360
So now I'm going to invite the appellant to provide a presentation to the board.

926
01:25:46,360 --> 01:25:49,180
Again, this is a 15 minute time limit.

927
01:25:59,310 --> 01:26:01,390
Do we have a presentation from the appellant?

928
01:26:02,770 --> 01:26:07,450
I'm just looking through my notes, your honor.

929
01:26:13,120 --> 01:26:14,000
I'm

930
01:26:16,630 --> 01:26:24,690
looking at the April 5 2021 citation, the courtesy notice,

931
01:26:34,480 --> 01:26:43,260
just directed to the fixture or to the light that was replaced to the flood light.

932
01:26:44,120 --> 01:26:48,020
It appears, well, it's confusing.

933
01:26:50,620 --> 01:26:58,780
The April 20, 2021 final notice states required actions to correct the violation.

934
01:26:59,000 --> 01:27:04,700
Please obtain all required building payments for the newly installed exterior floodlights.

935
01:27:06,160 --> 01:27:10,680
It does not say fixture. It does not indicate that there is a problem with the fixture.

936
01:27:10,680 --> 01:27:21,420
is the position taken by the city currently that when it said floodlights, it meant fixture.

937
01:27:24,500 --> 01:27:28,180
That's just a question that I have.

938
01:27:30,420 --> 01:27:36,580
And isn't there an exception in the code for what is deemed a minor repair work?

939
01:27:39,120 --> 01:27:48,380
We can, or I can understand how the city would have a problem if this requires new wiring

940
01:27:48,380 --> 01:27:58,100
and a new intrusion into the exterior of the property with new wires and all of that wonderful stuff.

941
01:27:59,040 --> 01:28:08,320
But if someone just goes down to Home Depot and buys a replacement exterior light to replace a light that has already been

942
01:28:08,320 --> 01:28:15,980
there, and has already been permitted, and that is apparently identical to the structure that

943
01:28:15,980 --> 01:28:23,720
is in the home of this next door neighbor, wouldn't that just be minor repair work?

944
01:28:30,260 --> 01:28:32,600
Sounds nice, but unfortunately it isn't anymore.

945
01:28:33,320 --> 01:28:39,420
The energy code requires it to be controlled either by a photo cell, a motion sensor,

946
01:28:39,420 --> 01:28:45,100
or an automatic time switch or controlled by an astronomical time clock control for energy

947
01:28:45,100 --> 01:28:45,620
requirements.

948
01:28:46,520 --> 01:28:50,940
So at that point it has to be a fixture that's going to be approved by the California Energy

949
01:28:50,940 --> 01:28:54,680
Commission as well as falls in line with the California Energy Code.

950
01:28:55,480 --> 01:29:04,240
So if the structure is just powered by a switch that's illegal, I don't know if you say

951
01:29:04,240 --> 01:29:05,480
a legal, but it's not for code.

952
01:29:05,500 --> 01:29:07,460
In other words, you can't just turn them off and turn them on.

953
01:29:07,460 --> 01:29:14,120
If that should you have currently and you have a replacement, obviously that's legal, non-performing, it's fine.

954
01:29:14,740 --> 01:29:19,840
But if you change them out, then you need to comply with the new requirements and you obtain a permit.

955
01:29:20,220 --> 01:29:27,000
At the same time, we want to make sure that they're watertight fixtures and that there's all correctly.

956
01:29:28,000 --> 01:29:38,020
And did the city see anything to indicate that this exterior light is not just operated by a switch?

957
01:29:38,800 --> 01:29:38,900
No.

958
01:29:41,120 --> 01:29:44,560
So as far as the city knows it's operated by a switch.

959
01:29:46,820 --> 01:29:48,280
It could be operated by a switch.

960
01:29:48,380 --> 01:29:53,720
And if it's operated by a switch, and it's a new fixture, then obviously it would not make the requirements to the California Energy Coast.

961
01:29:58,350 --> 01:29:59,930
Because it either has to be done by a phone.

962
01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:11,780
So, or it has to be operated by a motion sensor, an automatic time switch, control, or by an astronomical time clock control. You can't override it to stand the opposition at all times.

963
01:30:13,600 --> 01:30:17,120
So, in other words, during daylight, it probably wouldn't work.

964
01:30:17,600 --> 01:30:21,560
Okay. Let's say I had a motion sensor to pick this up, I guess.

965
01:30:22,720 --> 01:30:32,460
So, or a home belt in 1978 before there were white sensors, things like that, which still

966
01:30:32,460 --> 01:30:38,800
operate their exterior lights by a switch, all of those homes are in violation of the electrical

967
01:30:38,800 --> 01:30:39,280
item.

968
01:30:39,740 --> 01:30:40,920
I said a bell.

969
01:30:40,940 --> 01:30:41,660
I said that.

970
01:30:42,020 --> 01:30:43,180
I was asking a question.

971
01:30:44,160 --> 01:30:48,620
So, in other words, if I had a home belt in 1978 and I had the original fixtures and there's

972
01:30:48,620 --> 01:30:51,540
nothing wrong with them, I'm more than welcome to continue.

973
01:30:51,540 --> 01:30:56,980
to use them and change out the bolts. Obviously, I couldn't change out an incandescent bulb now,

974
01:30:57,060 --> 01:31:00,860
I probably changed it to an LED. But if I took that picture off and said, you know what,

975
01:31:00,860 --> 01:31:04,960
I'm going to put something different and it puts something new. And at that point, I need to go to

976
01:31:04,960 --> 01:31:10,360
the city, county, wherever my jurisdiction is, to end the proper permit, go through the inspection process.

977
01:31:11,640 --> 01:31:19,400
And did you check to see whether the current light fixture that has been installed can be

978
01:31:19,400 --> 01:31:24,740
is operated by a motion sensor. No, I did not, because I did not go on the

979
01:31:24,740 --> 01:31:27,920
authority and I won't want this property. Okay,

980
01:31:30,590 --> 01:31:33,050
and if it was operated by a motion sensor

981
01:31:33,050 --> 01:31:39,970
with a, there'd be a problem with the installation, with the replacement. Most likely not,

982
01:31:40,030 --> 01:31:45,490
as long as the dual approved, it falls under the guidelines of the 2019 California Energy Code

983
01:31:45,490 --> 01:31:49,970
And it's water type. I don't see an issue with it. Okay.

984
01:31:53,400 --> 01:31:54,420
Any other questions?

985
01:31:56,700 --> 01:32:03,200
I'm sorry, Pichelle. I like Pichelle. Can we see Mrs. Bell?

986
01:32:04,280 --> 01:32:05,980
Yeah, some page four.

987
01:32:06,960 --> 01:32:08,040
I'm going to have a report.

988
01:32:08,280 --> 01:32:09,240
Can I show it to everyone?

989
01:32:09,780 --> 01:32:10,000
Sure.

990
01:32:10,220 --> 01:32:10,700
Yes, please.

991
01:32:11,760 --> 01:32:12,500
Thank you.

992
01:32:31,080 --> 01:32:31,560
Mr. Chairman.

993
01:32:31,560 --> 01:32:36,580
I've got the photograph photo A on my screen.

994
01:32:36,600 --> 01:32:39,880
I can share my screen with the group.

995
01:32:39,880 --> 01:32:41,960
If that's the pleasure of the board.

996
01:32:42,320 --> 01:32:43,320
It's just please.

997
01:32:45,160 --> 01:32:46,160
It sounds good.

998
01:32:56,650 --> 01:32:59,070
So is there something you wanted to point out Nazarene?

999
01:32:59,990 --> 01:33:00,290
Yes.

1000
01:33:00,870 --> 01:33:03,210
I was wondering is this solar?

1001
01:33:03,930 --> 01:33:07,870
Or is this a WhatsApp latch spot underneath?

1002
01:33:08,050 --> 01:33:09,090
Is this sensor?

1003
01:33:09,910 --> 01:33:11,130
I don't know.

1004
01:33:12,450 --> 01:33:24,630
Because I think similar to that, I'm looked like that's the type you put in on top of the brush and then you move, it's activated.

1005
01:33:26,450 --> 01:33:34,410
So maybe the question is for Mr. Cheryl, is this already has sensor or not?

1006
01:33:38,350 --> 01:33:49,770
It has a motion sensor, but that can be disabled or enabled by software,

1007
01:33:52,590 --> 01:33:55,250
so it's fully flexible.

1008
01:33:56,030 --> 01:34:04,550
program, it can be program to can turn off the sensor, turn it on, I mean it's fully flexible

1009
01:34:06,450 --> 01:34:12,150
and it's portable, it can take it out and put it somewhere else. It's very easy to install

1010
01:34:12,150 --> 01:34:14,310
it takes five minutes to install it.

1011
01:34:15,410 --> 01:34:20,970
I have a question on that. Is it just attached to the wall? There's no electrical light source

1012
01:34:20,970 --> 01:34:27,090
in the home, that it's just a solar panel, and there's no electrical connection at all from

1013
01:34:27,090 --> 01:34:30,570
the switch phone operated or anything like that, it's just stuck to the wall.

1014
01:34:31,430 --> 01:34:40,350
No, it's not, it's not a solar panel, it's connected to the three wires, because they're receptacle

1015
01:34:40,350 --> 01:34:41,810
at the wall.

1016
01:34:42,090 --> 01:34:43,390
It's not connected.

1017
01:34:44,030 --> 01:34:47,330
And the wire and that's going to put the screws in and go from the wall.

1018
01:34:47,330 --> 01:34:54,050
It's just a connector, you connect it, it's a connector, and you can snap it out, snap back in, oops, it's easy.

1019
01:34:54,790 --> 01:34:54,930
Yeah.

1020
01:34:55,190 --> 01:34:59,230
It's just how you can see any chance you are number.

1021
01:35:00,000 --> 01:35:12,320
Oh yes, it has all the UL number and all the certificates and everything. Can buy it from home depor,

1022
01:35:12,460 --> 01:35:18,420
cost codes, the full of them. Everybody installs it and I think I'm the only one who has to get a permit for it.

1023
01:35:19,020 --> 01:35:23,940
I mean, Mr. Sauer hasn't probably never issued any permit for anyone else.

1024
01:35:28,120 --> 01:35:32,300
Can you present all those new members that have taken through Mr. Stella?

1025
01:35:37,550 --> 01:35:41,310
Yes. Yes. I can. Absolutely. Yes.

1026
01:35:42,890 --> 01:35:50,030
If it wasn't approved, it wouldn't be sold in stores and buy it from any store.

1027
01:35:50,450 --> 01:35:55,790
No, you shouldn't buy things. It's not approved, but you have to show it.

1028
01:35:55,790 --> 01:36:01,710
But it has a, if you have an approval, yes, it has all the certificates, it's FCC, FCC certification, everything.

1029
01:36:05,330 --> 01:36:10,870
Okay, I believe we're still in the presentation from the appellate.

1030
01:36:14,930 --> 01:36:16,170
I believe you're on the administrative.

1031
01:36:22,520 --> 01:36:23,720
This is the joy.

1032
01:36:23,840 --> 01:36:24,180
Sorry.

1033
01:36:25,040 --> 01:36:26,720
It's always a virtual meeting.

1034
01:36:27,080 --> 01:36:29,580
It's one of the vagaries of Zoom meetings.

1035
01:36:29,680 --> 01:36:34,520
One of the things they don't teach you in Zoom school is that if you have a desktop camera

1036
01:36:34,520 --> 01:36:43,040
Cool. I put it in front of your camera. You put a coffee cup in front of your camera. It really impacts people's ability to see you

1037
01:36:43,460 --> 01:36:50,480
Now you don't teach it that either. I just want to know where you've got to go to zoom school. No, me. Yeah. Oh

1038
01:36:51,100 --> 01:36:54,360
Anyway, it's very judge with a spare your court

1039
01:36:56,240 --> 01:37:01,920
Zoom settlement conferences all the time, but I digress, but in one or five point two

1040
01:37:02,740 --> 01:37:03,680
under a electrical

1041
01:37:04,520 --> 01:37:11,660
point once as repairs and maintenance, minor repair work, including replacement of lamps or the

1042
01:37:11,660 --> 01:37:18,260
connection of approved portable electrical equipment to approve permanently installed receptacles,

1043
01:37:19,220 --> 01:37:26,140
is exempt from getting a permit. And that's exactly what this is.

1044
01:37:28,520 --> 01:37:32,590
And I am wondering why

1045
01:37:32,590 --> 01:37:40,810
What there is about this particular installation that does not make an example as minor repair work.

1046
01:37:43,050 --> 01:37:47,870
If all it is is the replacement of a fixture A with fixture B,

1047
01:37:51,140 --> 01:37:52,580
and fixture B is portable.

1048
01:37:53,820 --> 01:37:56,360
As Mr. Men, excuse me,

1049
01:37:56,980 --> 01:38:00,960
Manning Helm has testified it is.

1050
01:38:00,960 --> 01:38:08,880
For one, I don't think this is a life fixture is considered portable just because you're able to install it or uninstall it.

1051
01:38:09,260 --> 01:38:16,520
That would be applicable to any fixture at all. Obviously they're installed and uninstall.

1052
01:38:18,580 --> 01:38:19,260
Secondly,

1053
01:38:21,560 --> 01:38:24,340
this is obviously not a repair. It's a replacement.

1054
01:38:24,340 --> 01:38:33,620
repair would be of an existing fixer or appliance. This is a replacement, and as Mr. Sowers

1055
01:38:34,520 --> 01:38:43,680
explained, the permit requirement is in place so that there is an inspection to make sure that the

1056
01:38:43,680 --> 01:38:51,640
reconnection is done correctly that there is that it's you know airtight and so forth. So it's not

1057
01:38:51,640 --> 01:38:57,880
exposed to the elements. This is clearly not a minor repair or maintenance, it's a replacement.

1058
01:38:59,680 --> 01:39:09,080
In that provision, specifically called that, what is exempt by way of example, and that is a lamp and not a luminaire.

1059
01:39:09,420 --> 01:39:17,860
There's definitions in the code to distinguish the two. One is a light bulb, which is a lamp, which you can replace without a permit under 105.

1060
01:39:17,860 --> 01:39:25,880
to. The Luminear, which is defined as the fixture itself, is not exempt and therefore by virtue

1061
01:39:25,880 --> 01:39:31,920
of the fact that it was not specifically referenced where it could have, they referenced a lamp

1062
01:39:31,920 --> 01:39:37,680
and not a Luminear. It is clear that the replacement of a Luminear does require a permit.

1063
01:39:38,440 --> 01:39:44,960
Well, like most things in the lie, things are not always as clear as we would like them to be.

1064
01:39:44,960 --> 01:39:56,760
If maintenance of a unit could also include replacement, there is nothing in the statute that says it does not include replacement.

1065
01:40:00,000 --> 01:40:11,000
This is basically going to home depot getting a replacement unit and connecting it.

1066
01:40:13,780 --> 01:40:24,580
It's hard to see why the city would want to be burdened with permit requirements for something as minor as this.

1067
01:40:24,580 --> 01:40:36,940
If there were intrusions into the wall, if he was putting in a new light, where one had not existed before, that would certainly be understandable.

1068
01:40:40,460 --> 01:40:40,860
But,

1069
01:40:44,120 --> 01:40:52,960
I have not, you know, searched for the definition of luminaire since I don't know how to spell it, one of the other problems.

1070
01:40:54,660 --> 01:40:55,280
But

1071
01:41:01,900 --> 01:41:10,240
I will point out that in the same regulation, 105.1, as it's found in the residential

1072
01:41:10,240 --> 01:41:14,500
code, which is nearly identical to 105 in the California Building Code, both being

1073
01:41:14,500 --> 01:41:15,000
applicable.

1074
01:41:15,980 --> 01:41:23,520
Where are the, you know, the board wanted to, that adopted these, these regulations wanted

1075
01:41:23,520 --> 01:41:34,660
use replacements they did and in 105. In section 105 permits, excuse me section 105.2 of the

1076
01:41:34,660 --> 01:41:39,860
replacement of the residential code, which is identical, requiring a permit for electrical work,

1077
01:41:40,540 --> 01:41:48,840
you will see the word replacement as opposed to the word reuse, which indicates that they know the

1078
01:41:48,840 --> 01:41:55,920
difference between a replacement or a repair, and they use the appropriate word where they

1079
01:41:55,920 --> 01:41:58,020
think that.

1080
01:41:58,540 --> 01:42:05,340
If I might, this is the portion of the hearing, where the appellant, you know, I didn't

1081
01:42:05,340 --> 01:42:06,680
have the appellant to make a presentation.

1082
01:42:07,660 --> 01:42:13,080
I don't mean to stifle the questions by the board or by to the staff, but I do just want

1083
01:42:13,080 --> 01:42:17,860
to make sure that the appellant has an opportunity to make a presentation and then complete

1084
01:42:17,860 --> 01:42:24,580
that presentation and that it acknowledges that opportunity because we seem to be a little bit

1085
01:42:24,580 --> 01:42:28,860
just free flowing here and I just don't want to deny the appellant it's opportunity for

1086
01:42:28,860 --> 01:42:29,340
a presentation.

1087
01:42:30,420 --> 01:42:31,220
Thank you.

1088
01:42:31,660 --> 01:42:39,180
Our position is outlined pretty thoroughly in the appeal filed by Mr.

1089
01:42:42,520 --> 01:42:44,260
Manningolum and which

1090
01:42:44,260 --> 01:42:49,200
If I take it as a better job than most attorneys that I know,

1091
01:42:51,880 --> 01:42:52,160
that

1092
01:42:54,790 --> 01:43:01,570
this seems to qualify as an exemption under one of five point to you for minor repair work.

1093
01:43:04,590 --> 01:43:10,310
There's just not that much involved in this process.

1094
01:43:10,310 --> 01:43:19,470
And I think that the vast majority of the citizens of your Belinda, who are called upon

1095
01:43:19,470 --> 01:43:25,450
to want to replace an exterior light fixture, are not going to think they have to go

1096
01:43:25,450 --> 01:43:26,730
and get a building permit.

1097
01:43:30,570 --> 01:43:39,090
It just doesn't make no sense to get a building permit for something as minor, as unscrewing

1098
01:43:39,090 --> 01:43:47,170
fixture and screwing a replacement fixture in. If that does require a building permit and the failure

1099
01:43:47,170 --> 01:43:53,990
to do so results in the possibility of violations and fines, I think you probably have a lot of

1100
01:43:53,990 --> 01:43:59,150
people in the city who are subject unknowingly the violations and fines.

1101
01:44:01,510 --> 01:44:03,950
Because I would submit that

1102
01:44:05,090 --> 01:44:14,950
For anyone who's walked down a home depoliled in the lighting section, people are doing this all the time.

1103
01:44:16,590 --> 01:44:24,270
Without giving it a second thought or having any idea that it requires that something is minor as this requires a building permit.

1104
01:44:27,630 --> 01:44:29,350
Is that conclude your presentation?

1105
01:44:30,150 --> 01:44:30,410
Yes.

1106
01:44:31,210 --> 01:44:32,370
Alright, thank you very much.

1107
01:44:32,370 --> 01:44:36,750
Do any of the board members have questions for the appellate?

1108
01:44:37,010 --> 01:44:38,010
I do.

1109
01:44:39,010 --> 01:44:48,790
This is his response dated June 8, 2021, subject request for amending the present appeal timeline

1110
01:44:50,770 --> 01:44:59,930
14, 2021, built in the procedures of 2019 California Building Code Section A.

1111
01:45:02,220 --> 01:45:08,040
First of all, I want to commend you for researching the building code. That in itself is quite an accomplishment.

1112
01:45:10,680 --> 01:45:25,680
You go into detail about how the delighting question is installed to bless in five minutes to connect the connectors to the snap and snap unit into the wall back plate.

1113
01:45:25,680 --> 01:45:31,040
five-minute work is definitely a minor repair work. Therefore, even the city notices,

1114
01:45:31,760 --> 01:45:37,680
we're regarding the entire unit, pursuant to section A105.2.

1115
01:45:38,720 --> 01:45:41,820
Floodlight unit does not need a permit. Okay.

1116
01:45:43,560 --> 01:45:49,720
So the question I have for you is, is this certainly a problem? Did you do the repair work yourself?

1117
01:45:50,460 --> 01:45:55,000
Oh yes. And could you describe how you replace that to me please?

1118
01:45:55,000 --> 01:46:14,760
You took off the original six year that was there and what was beneath it beneath it is a bracket that holds the receptacle put the new receptacle in there and screw it and then you

1119
01:46:14,760 --> 01:46:30,780
I put the back plate there, and then you snap the, and you connect three wires with the connector, and you snap the slot like into the back plate.

1120
01:46:31,100 --> 01:46:31,780
That's it.

1121
01:46:31,800 --> 01:46:41,200
Regarding the connector, sir, how are the existing connectors inside the stud bay? You have a stucko finish on the wall, is that correct?

1122
01:46:41,200 --> 01:46:49,140
Yes. Okay. So, I just replaced the old one with the new one, and everything is there.

1123
01:46:49,780 --> 01:46:59,040
Okay. So, inside the hole of the exterior wall of the stucco between the stud base, you have conductors, wives.

1124
01:46:59,040 --> 01:47:08,720
How did you attach those wires the existing wires inside the wall to the new wires of your new fixture?

1125
01:47:09,380 --> 01:47:11,180
How did you combine those wires?

1126
01:47:12,080 --> 01:47:19,260
The three wires, and then they go to corresponding three wires on the floodlight.

1127
01:47:19,940 --> 01:47:24,560
And how did you connect those wires the existing wires and the new wires?

1128
01:47:24,700 --> 01:47:26,300
How did you connect those together?

1129
01:47:26,740 --> 01:47:28,400
What devices did you use?

1130
01:47:29,120 --> 01:47:35,200
Bubblegum, you welded them. How did you, how did you connect the existing wires with the new one?

1131
01:47:35,380 --> 01:47:45,460
Oh, we did. We did a wire wrap connector. Would that be a cone-shaped cap that you stuck the

1132
01:47:45,460 --> 01:47:51,140
wires into and twisted it onto? Is that what we're talking about here? Yes. So we use caps for

1133
01:47:51,140 --> 01:48:00,780
So you're existing wires inside the stud base were connected to the new wires of the fixture.

1134
01:48:01,780 --> 01:48:06,460
You bonded the wires together by slipping a cone shape cap over them and twisted it together.

1135
01:48:06,820 --> 01:48:07,760
Three of them, yes, correct?

1136
01:48:08,440 --> 01:48:08,840
Okay.

1137
01:48:10,600 --> 01:48:11,240
Thank you.

1138
01:48:14,180 --> 01:48:16,080
Well, you're really getting into it there, Jack.

1139
01:48:16,080 --> 01:48:19,820
So, any other board members have questions?

1140
01:48:23,980 --> 01:48:25,320
Nobody, okay?

1141
01:48:26,560 --> 01:48:28,140
So, thank you.

1142
01:48:28,520 --> 01:48:30,940
Does this nitty have any questions for the appellate?

1143
01:48:30,980 --> 01:48:35,180
And please note that there's a five minute time limit on questions.

1144
01:48:35,540 --> 01:48:39,020
Questions must be related to the compliance issue

1145
01:48:39,020 --> 01:48:41,280
and related code sections.

1146
01:48:41,900 --> 01:48:44,580
I may ask you to stop with those guidelines or not follow.

1147
01:48:46,040 --> 01:48:48,600
I have one thing to say, but it's more of a statement.

1148
01:48:48,760 --> 01:48:51,760
I'd like to ask Mr. Miller if I can make a quick statement.

1149
01:48:56,280 --> 01:48:59,990
Gask me, you need to ask me a question.

1150
01:49:00,930 --> 01:49:02,330
Then I will allow it.

1151
01:49:02,710 --> 01:49:05,670
Okay. Now, I say that I want to make is Mr. Mennig,

1152
01:49:05,670 --> 01:49:10,410
along indicated that we do not issue permits for exterior light,

1153
01:49:10,710 --> 01:49:12,870
as well as the attorney.

1154
01:49:13,410 --> 01:49:15,990
We do issue permits for exterior lighting.

1155
01:49:16,770 --> 01:49:19,230
We get a lot of rehab permits to come in.

1156
01:49:19,230 --> 01:49:23,070
and we also have a science that come in that show complete.

1157
01:49:24,510 --> 01:49:27,690
You know, light fixture done throughout the entire home,

1158
01:49:27,770 --> 01:49:29,950
which in turn are provided with the LTG forms.

1159
01:49:30,470 --> 01:49:31,850
They go through the plan check process.

1160
01:49:31,950 --> 01:49:35,210
If it's just a simple light fixtures that are going on the

1161
01:49:35,210 --> 01:49:37,790
extra of a home will normally attempt to do those over the counter

1162
01:49:37,790 --> 01:49:40,770
provide the correct fixtures as well as the information

1163
01:49:40,770 --> 01:49:42,610
to help the inspector alone.

1164
01:49:44,550 --> 01:49:46,210
A lot of them, you're absolutely correct.

1165
01:49:46,450 --> 01:49:48,070
We don't see everything that happens

1166
01:49:48,070 --> 01:49:51,650
with the instructors drive by and somebody is replacing the light pictures on the extra

1167
01:49:51,650 --> 01:49:56,170
home and physically see them doing it or they notice it's a new, they will issue a stop

1168
01:49:56,170 --> 01:49:56,490
opportunity.

1169
01:49:56,870 --> 01:49:59,390
And we do issue stop works, notice it's periodically for those items.

1170
01:50:00,110 --> 01:50:02,210
That's what I wanted to say.

1171
01:50:04,430 --> 01:50:13,770
All right. Thank you for that. Does the Board wish to entertain any additional testimony from the city staff or the appellate? Board members?

1172
01:50:18,230 --> 01:50:24,050
Maybe one, maybe one question, okay, but, and I don't know why I would address it, too.

1173
01:50:24,330 --> 01:50:27,650
Regarding precedent, there's an actual way.

1174
01:50:35,150 --> 01:50:38,470
Sometimes the actual way has issues with the type of lighting.

1175
01:50:38,730 --> 01:50:46,070
I'm just wondering if there are any other issues other than the physical connection that we're looking for permit for.

1176
01:50:46,070 --> 01:50:52,310
or not, we're not spilling over light into other people's property. We're not concerned about

1177
01:50:54,130 --> 01:51:03,230
any other violations. It's essentially a permit to connect this new device to the existing

1178
01:51:04,150 --> 01:51:07,830
conductors. That's what the permit is for, and I don't know if Mr. Brownlee wants to comment.

1179
01:51:08,030 --> 01:51:11,790
I don't know what that is. Lenses on the bottom there, I don't know if it's the photo cell.

1180
01:51:11,790 --> 01:51:15,510
I have no idea, but I know that Mr. Brantley commented on it.

1181
01:51:16,190 --> 01:51:17,770
Yes, I would like to Mr. Chair.

1182
01:51:19,030 --> 01:51:23,770
So the zoning regulations for the city also govern outdoor lighting.

1183
01:51:24,790 --> 01:51:28,050
And there are performance standards for outdoor lighting.

1184
01:51:28,650 --> 01:51:34,010
And absolutely there are sort of requirements for

1185
01:51:34,010 --> 01:51:41,170
for containing light within the boundaries of your own property, as well as ensuring that

1186
01:51:42,430 --> 01:51:51,510
the actual lighting source itself, the light bulb is downward directed and shielded

1187
01:51:51,510 --> 01:51:56,890
from a joining property so that you don't see the hotspot from a neighboring property

1188
01:51:57,650 --> 01:52:06,890
and and or from, you know, public rights of way, et cetera. So in this case, if you recall, the photo that I showed before,

1189
01:52:10,250 --> 01:52:21,590
there does appear to be some visibility of the actual bulb, the light source itself, and there is glare potential associated with that.

1190
01:52:21,590 --> 01:52:37,990
So the city did not include that reference in our violation notice, because the permit requirement

1191
01:52:37,990 --> 01:52:40,810
was really superior to that.

1192
01:52:41,570 --> 01:52:49,510
The normal course of action, what have involved the homeowner responding to the notice

1193
01:52:49,510 --> 01:52:52,050
the violation to come in and get a permit.

1194
01:52:52,670 --> 01:52:55,830
And as part of that process, it would be reviewed

1195
01:52:55,830 --> 01:52:57,790
and approved by the planning division.

1196
01:52:58,370 --> 01:53:00,850
The planning division at that time

1197
01:53:00,850 --> 01:53:06,310
would put certain conditions on the approval

1198
01:53:06,310 --> 01:53:11,450
that it comply with those zoning provisions

1199
01:53:12,030 --> 01:53:13,710
that I mentioned a moment ago,

1200
01:53:13,850 --> 01:53:18,970
regarding downward-directed fixtures that don't reveal

1201
01:53:18,970 --> 01:53:28,490
light source from offsite and eliminate glare potential and do not cause light bleeds onto a

1202
01:53:28,490 --> 01:53:34,830
joining properties. So that would be the zoning side of things, but it wouldn't become

1203
01:53:34,830 --> 01:53:48,950
relevant until they come in to obtain a permit unless we received a complaint about an already

1204
01:53:50,900 --> 01:53:59,380
Sometimes, in the case of new technologies, you know, we have, for example, security

1205
01:53:59,380 --> 01:54:04,840
lights, flood lights, sometimes these devices get out ahead of the codes,

1206
01:54:08,530 --> 01:54:09,090
and that's

1207
01:54:09,090 --> 01:54:19,530
what we have, reductions, ordinances, you know, fluid standards that can be adopted to

1208
01:54:19,530 --> 01:54:22,130
these kinds of circumstances.

1209
01:54:23,330 --> 01:54:28,450
I don't believe there would be an issue with that particular device, you know, meeting

1210
01:54:28,450 --> 01:54:34,190
in the California Electric Code or building energy standards.

1211
01:54:34,650 --> 01:54:37,510
It looks like a typical, of the shelf type of an item.

1212
01:54:39,610 --> 01:54:48,490
So it appears that, you know, maybe, I've got them on my house, I know people install these

1213
01:54:48,490 --> 01:54:51,730
things, homeowners and all these devices,

1214
01:54:54,070 --> 01:54:59,470
and it sounds like it might be a case of somebody

1215
01:55:00,000 --> 01:55:01,620
Having

1216
01:55:05,430 --> 01:55:16,270
been noticed that somebody changed this device, obviously we know that the homeowner was the one that did a great device.

1217
01:55:16,270 --> 01:55:45,350
And that's why my question regarding a president in the area is the city, the state is that they are requesting permits for this kind of device and believe they are the ones that would be responsible for issuing those permits and establishing the criteria in this particular case for that type of a fixture.

1218
01:55:47,130 --> 01:55:51,830
I read that correct, and that's your position as well.

1219
01:55:51,990 --> 01:55:54,010
I read this in my correct, Jim.

1220
01:55:55,750 --> 01:56:02,350
Well, it's not only us, it's the building code, as well as the energy code.

1221
01:56:03,210 --> 01:56:09,210
I mean, it's a very simple permitting process, it's relatively inexpensive permit, and we

1222
01:56:09,210 --> 01:56:13,470
do have people doing it quite often, or they're doing it completely rehab on their homes

1223
01:56:13,470 --> 01:56:17,920
we include the lighting pictures into the permit at that point in time as well.

1224
01:56:19,310 --> 01:56:20,730
You can ask a question of Mr. Sours?

1225
01:56:21,470 --> 01:56:22,050
Yes.

1226
01:56:23,030 --> 01:56:24,750
If Mr. Heinrich is that acceptable?

1227
01:56:25,410 --> 01:56:25,750
Yes.

1228
01:56:27,950 --> 01:56:37,650
Do you have people coming in only seeking a permit to replace a exterior light fixture with another

1229
01:56:37,650 --> 01:56:40,190
exterior light fixture and nothing else?

1230
01:56:41,230 --> 01:56:43,150
We have to do people come and do that.

1231
01:56:43,150 --> 01:56:47,590
a lot of them are extra light pictures not only on the home, but some of them actually have

1232
01:56:47,590 --> 01:56:51,790
extra light pictures that are attached to block walls and things. And they want to

1233
01:56:51,790 --> 01:56:56,150
replace them for something different. And at that point in time we go through the permitting

1234
01:56:56,150 --> 01:56:57,610
process as well.

1235
01:57:02,150 --> 01:57:07,670
Okay, does the board have any desire to entertain any additional

1236
01:57:07,670 --> 01:57:11,930
to have testimony from either of the available or the city staff.

1237
01:57:12,410 --> 01:57:12,850
Not only.

1238
01:57:13,150 --> 01:57:14,070
I have a question.

1239
01:57:14,610 --> 01:57:15,970
If you're hearing it, Nazarene.

1240
01:57:17,390 --> 01:57:20,510
First of all, as for a California code,

1241
01:57:20,990 --> 01:57:25,090
it's just a license and electrician.

1242
01:57:25,090 --> 01:57:27,110
They can replace it.

1243
01:57:27,850 --> 01:57:30,830
So, um, doing it by home home owner.

1244
01:57:31,370 --> 01:57:36,910
It may cause problem as one of my colleagues asking how they're doing stolen.

1245
01:57:36,910 --> 01:57:44,790
And that's the concern I think City has, and maybe regularly we don't check for one

1246
01:57:44,790 --> 01:57:50,510
life or two lives, but then you have complaints, then we go and check everything,

1247
01:58:04,830 --> 01:58:04,870
did

1248
01:58:04,870 --> 01:58:05,490
you do?

1249
01:58:10,900 --> 01:58:13,240
What are you, why are you resisting?

1250
01:58:15,060 --> 01:58:16,260
Everyone benefits it.

1251
01:58:36,750 --> 01:58:39,570
Is that directed to Mr. Manningolong?

1252
01:58:39,970 --> 01:58:40,110
Yes.

1253
01:58:40,450 --> 01:58:43,030
Okay, first he is an electrical engineer,

1254
01:58:45,370 --> 01:58:46,390
with that.

1255
01:59:01,980 --> 01:59:13,140
Well, I have a master's in an execon Engineering from California State University and I don't know what else you need.

1256
01:59:14,120 --> 01:59:15,340
I have to have that.

1257
01:59:16,260 --> 01:59:24,700
Even licensed electricians are still required to pull a permit for electrical work.

1258
01:59:26,100 --> 01:59:35,600
It's, I congratulate you on your education, I know that wasn't a cheap one, but yes, but that's a very minor work.

1259
01:59:36,340 --> 01:59:39,860
Right, you don't have to be an even in engineers to connect three wires.

1260
01:59:40,200 --> 01:59:41,300
Just three wires.

1261
01:59:41,940 --> 01:59:52,600
Right, the moment that you broke the surface of the, of the exterior wall and you went into the wall cavity that became an entirely different matter.

1262
01:59:52,600 --> 01:59:59,380
I'm not going inside the wall, but if the wires are out, yeah, once you attach to the

1263
02:00:00,000 --> 02:00:09,640
Doctors that are attached back to the main service panel. That's not simply plugging into a receptacle. Okay, that's far more.

1264
02:00:10,020 --> 02:00:16,040
So we thought was there already, but you didn't, you didn't talk about or describe a receptacle earlier.

1265
02:00:16,240 --> 02:00:24,940
Are you talking about a junction box? Is that what you went into attach your, it sounded like you were talking about a junction box and not a receptacle.

1266
02:00:24,940 --> 02:00:31,220
it's a definition of receptacle is very broad. I have it. It is a receptacle with three wires.

1267
02:00:34,370 --> 02:00:40,810
That's not a receptacle. I have a definition of a receptacle that you want to read it.

1268
02:00:41,070 --> 02:00:48,090
I have it right here. It's a 2019 California Electrical Code. This is an electrician's Bible.

1269
02:00:48,950 --> 02:00:55,010
Everything has to be done per this code. And the work that you described to me earlier

1270
02:00:55,010 --> 02:00:58,350
is just not fall under this definition.

1271
02:01:00,570 --> 02:01:03,190
Were you mistaken in the description you were giving me earlier?

1272
02:01:04,350 --> 02:01:07,970
No. The wires are out of the receptacle.

1273
02:01:08,630 --> 02:01:11,490
You just connect them three wires. It's very simple.

1274
02:01:11,750 --> 02:01:13,430
It takes 25 minutes.

1275
02:01:13,830 --> 02:01:15,590
You don't go inside the wall there.

1276
02:01:15,950 --> 02:01:17,610
So actually it's already there.

1277
02:01:17,990 --> 02:01:19,530
Just for what I'm correct here.

1278
02:01:19,750 --> 02:01:22,850
The description that you gave me earlier was accurate description.

1279
02:01:25,010 --> 02:01:25,570
Yes.

1280
02:01:25,570 --> 02:01:34,290
Okay. Thank you for that. Any other additional testimony from the City staff or a

1281
02:01:34,290 --> 02:01:36,150
pellet that the board would like to hear.

1282
02:01:40,020 --> 02:01:43,020
I'm not hearing any. I want to close the time

1283
02:01:43,020 --> 02:01:47,400
for testimony. There will be no more testimony except unless requested by the board.

1284
02:01:48,160 --> 02:01:53,040
We will now have an opportunity for public comment. Is there any member of the public

1285
02:01:53,040 --> 02:01:58,100
who wishes to speak on this item? Please note you will have three minute time limit on public

1286
02:01:58,100 --> 02:01:58,500
comment.

1287
02:02:03,830 --> 02:02:07,650
I don't hear any, so I will close the public comment portion of the hearing.

1288
02:02:08,470 --> 02:02:13,030
We will now discuss and deliberate at the end of the deliberation or at any time during

1289
02:02:13,030 --> 02:02:19,390
the deliberation, I will entertain our motion on this matter. The motion could be to either

1290
02:02:19,390 --> 02:02:26,450
deny the appeal and uphold the building official decision or it could be to modify or reverse

1291
02:02:26,450 --> 02:02:32,090
the building official decision. A determination to modify or reverse the building official

1292
02:02:32,090 --> 02:02:39,670
decision must be by a two-thirds vote of the board's membership, in other words, at least four votes,

1293
02:02:40,390 --> 02:02:49,070
our determination or our determination should be by resolution. There is a draft resolution,

1294
02:02:49,810 --> 02:02:56,110
I keep saying, anyway, there's a draft resolution in the agenda packet, but we can't modify

1295
02:02:56,110 --> 02:03:04,490
that resolution as we see fit, including by voice vote, with the drafting of a resolution

1296
02:03:04,490 --> 02:03:11,950
a crane after the meeting. So is there deliberation or I will entertain a motion?

1297
02:03:12,530 --> 02:03:20,410
Motion to deny the appeal, just in part two, in total part due to the type of repair that

1298
02:03:20,410 --> 02:03:26,490
done. Do I hear a second? I come to motion.

1299
02:03:28,860 --> 02:03:30,720
Any further deliberation?

1300
02:03:37,150 --> 02:03:37,770
All right. I would

1301
02:03:37,770 --> 02:03:42,290
like to call Arlene for the vote.

1302
02:03:55,300 --> 02:03:55,500
Yes.

1303
02:03:58,100 --> 02:03:58,620
Yes.

1304
02:04:00,300 --> 02:04:00,820
Yes.

1305
02:04:01,600 --> 02:04:01,720
Yes.

1306
02:04:01,720 --> 02:04:02,420
Goal over.

1307
02:04:02,940 --> 02:04:03,140
Yes.

1308
02:04:03,920 --> 02:04:04,500
My car line.

1309
02:04:05,300 --> 02:04:05,460
Yes.

1310
02:04:06,100 --> 02:04:06,380
Motion.

1311
02:04:06,580 --> 02:04:07,080
You're using that.

1312
02:04:08,860 --> 02:04:12,640
So thank you having voted on both matters for for us.

1313
02:04:12,940 --> 02:04:14,820
I will now close this hearing.

1314
02:04:17,940 --> 02:04:21,840
So Steven, is there anything that we need to do after that?

1315
02:04:22,780 --> 02:04:24,980
Well, where's, you know, we're back on the agenda.

1316
02:04:27,350 --> 02:04:29,630
I'm on the agenda for correspondence received.

1317
02:04:29,630 --> 02:04:32,710
I don't know if there is any, and then adjournment.

1318
02:04:36,410 --> 02:04:38,990
I don't remember any correspondence received.

1319
02:04:39,770 --> 02:04:42,490
Mr. Chair, the only correspondence received was already

1320
02:04:42,490 --> 02:04:48,330
forward to the board as amounts to the additional correspondence

1321
02:04:48,330 --> 02:04:54,590
from the Appalachian Attorney, which we discussed throughout the hearing

1322
02:04:54,590 --> 02:05:00,010
from time to time today, dated June 21, 2021 from the rate law firm.

1323
02:05:03,590 --> 02:05:15,510
And the normal packet that was delivered from staff, certainly, which went out to you as well, other than that, no further correspondence was received.

1324
02:05:16,790 --> 02:05:25,550
All right, thank you. So next agenda item is adjournment. So do we need a vote on adjournment?

1325
02:05:27,580 --> 02:05:31,500
You do not, although you are welcome to, if you would enjoy that.

1326
02:05:33,260 --> 02:05:37,720
Yeah, boy, we didn't do a voting for adjournment. Everybody in favor of adjournment.

1327
02:05:38,120 --> 02:05:56,140
Hi, hi. Mr. Chair, and I would just like to thank you and the board, as well as all of the parties to this matter for conducting yourselves in a very professional manner.

1328
02:05:56,140 --> 02:06:22,640
and for adjudicating this in a fair straight forward manner and hopefully we can all work together to resolve the issues with the appellant and efficient and thoughtful manner and appreciate everyone taking the time today to help work through this.

1329
02:06:23,820 --> 02:06:32,820
I would say the same thing and it would be my hope that the two praise would work this out and get this

1330
02:06:32,820 --> 02:06:38,120
behind them and maybe we'll meet on the streets someday and I'll smile at each other.

1331
02:06:39,930 --> 02:06:40,150
Thank you.