All
right.
>> Um, so
everyone's tried to figure out
like how many how much taxes could Water
Street possibly bring in. And the answer
is we don't know. The reason we don't
know is property values change every
year. State law dictates how property
values change. New economic conditions
come into effect frequently and new
developments are really expensive.
uh the way our assessor determines sale
prices are different depending on the
type of of of land use. So there's the
sales comparison approach which everyone
who owns a house in the city their house
is valued based on a two-year sales
analysis
set kind of frozen based on when you
bought your house. And so every two
years the city will reassess your
property
and kind of increase it in two values.
But but that's the sales comparison.
Then there's the income approach which
is typically done through residential uh
apartments or commercial apartments
where how much income are you bringing
in that assigns the value and there's a
formula and the cost approach. This is a
commercial or industrial style way of
assessing property taxes, which is
taking square footage and location and
kind of matching those. So when you're
coming to a development like Water
Street,
you have rental, you're going to have
probably some commercial um and then uh
also uh coming at industrial, but but
realistically commercial can go either
on the cost or the income approach,
whereas any single family or duplex
being built will be done the sales
comparison approach. So it's really
challenging to kind of set a value. Um,
with that said,
I've kind of tried to pull some numbers
and I think the numbers that I pulled
are very conservative. Um, and so to
give everyone kind of understanding,
right now the city's total taxable value
is $433 million. Okay, that's easy to
digest.
Looking at estimated development, we
kind of put that number at 150 million.
Okay, which would give a tax revenue of
$75 million, which is a lot. Uh, and
that would bring in an estimated5 to $6
million, okay, of revenue. Now, that's
in all taxes being levied. That's not to
the city. The city it would be $1.7 to
$1.9 million, which would be a huge
impact to the city's budget. However,
yes.
>> What is who gets the remaining money? Uh
the county, the state, schools,
>> any of that federal money?
>> No.
>> Okay.
>> Oh,
one of the problems that we have in the
state is we have two competing property.
You guys will get this this pro this presentation at the end of it.
>> Yeah.
>> The reason why we haven't sent it out is
if you have questions, I might be able
to add a slide real quick or add some context. And so I want to make sure
you have the full information based on
the questions you ask in the
presentation. So you will get it at
latest tomorrow. So please don't feel
you can you can take pictures but you're
going to get these slides with maybe a
little bit.
>> Okay. Um
the state of Michigan one of the
constraints and I know mayor and and and
Steve and uh Mr. Fresno understand this
very well. Are we are constrained um in
how property taxes are collected by two
competing uh laws that are in the state
constitution which is the Headley
amendment which means if your taxable
value goes up your village rate rolls
back and then Prop A which means your
property value is set and it can only go
up cost of living. And so depending on
how much value you're adding to your
city, um the city's ability to collect
taxes is strength. Okay. So that's kind
of the, you know, development scenario.
Now, for a much smaller development, uh
and the city that's that's being talked
about right now, they're talking about
it being $150 million for about a 4 acre
parcel. And so realistically, this is
very small. However, if we're talking
about more not extremely high density
residential, the $150 million is
probably a little bit more realistic. If
we're talking about much more dense,
high urban development, we'll get into
some of the challenges there. Um, this
is way low, but I felt like it was good
to kind of show you what what that
means. Uh and we also calculated it
based on developments in the city uh
that have happened that would kind of
equal about 31 acres uh like Clark Road
and Thompson block and um you know town
center even and things like that. So we
had to try to take it and that's where
we got to the $150 million uh uh value.
However, once again, if we developed
every inch of the 31 acres, it's going
to be much higher than $150 million. And
then yeah, I think I said it, but taxes,
you take the value, cut it in half, and
that's how you get the assessed value.
That's what we got. $75 million in
estimated tax.
>> Any questions on that?
>> Yes.
>> In your $150 million, how much of that
is uh utility infrastructure?
>> Um,
probably 20%. Um, it depends. Does that
tax does that fall in the same taxable
category?
>> Yes. Well,
>> because if that's city infrastructure,
>> it depends.
>> So for any development, the city does
not have to put in that infrastructure.
It would the developer would have to
actually install that infrastructure and
so it would end up being turned back
over to the city, but it wouldn't be it
would be part of the development.
You're giving me a look and so I'm
>> I'm just I'm just thinking through
whether
>> the city would
>> it will actually inform the tax
structure in the coming years.
>> So the city wouldn't be installing roads
for a new development. The development
>> think like sewer lines
>> sewer lines the developer would have to
bring the sewer line from the the tap.
So and this doesn't count for the sewer
line running down Michigan
>> right the developer would have to bring
it from Michigan Avenue.
>> Okay. And the other question is how much
of the 150 million is Brownfield
dealing with Brownfield issues.
>> We're going to get to that
>> before we go forward. What I want to ask
based off his question, are you saying
that the um the money that's being made
maybe for the sewer would not developer
have to pay that even though it's going
to still come back to the city? So it's
not like coming out of the city dying
even though it's part of the
>> Yes. So, for a developer to to put in
water and sewer lines, roads, and it
really depends on how it's all
negotiated in the overall package, um
the developer has to pay for right now
with water and sewer lines, developer
has to put it in, but then Yaka is the
one that owns the water and sewer lines
eventually, but you have to service your
properties. And so, um so Yaka is not
out any money to install the new water
and sewer lines, but they are owned at
the end. streets. Same way, a lot of
developments outside of the city of Seni
have private roads in their development.
The city has really tried not to do
that. Now, there's private parking lots
and within developments, but roads the
city hasn't really we don't have any
private roads in the city. We have some
alleys that are kind of private and kind
of shared, but but for the most part, we
don't have any private roads. That is
something the city could consider in
Water Street. It just depends on what
this committee would would recommend.
There's pros and cons to both. You can have a lot more control on a
private road, but you also
um have to maintain a public road
whereas the developing window. Yes.
>> What would be the benefit of having a
private road?
>> That we would not have to maintain it.
We wouldn't have to plow it. We wouldn't
have to uh we wouldn't have to fix it.
Nothing. liability mostly.
>> Yeah,
>> at that point it would essentially be a
gated.
>> I mean it could be. However, the city
would never allow a gated community
based on their zoning or so could be.
Yes, we would never allow it.
>> I I have a card. I thought I heard
something. So these estimates are based
on development of 4 acres. Does that
make sense?
>> No.
you could get $150 million easily on a
4acre parcel.
Okay. However, and of taking everything
$150 million was kind of the first
estimate, it could be $450 million,
but I'm what I wanted to do is kind of
take a number that is digestible based
on the what is on the ground right now.
Um, and it depends on the density of
housing. I'm
>> sorry, one more. Um,
150 is like all of the money that the
developer is putting into
as for a partial, you know,
hypothetically 150 million or it's what
they would expect to earn after they
>> we'll get a little bit of it out.
>> Okay.
>> So, we'll get
>> No, there's a lot, you know, I think
we're on slide three right now. So, um
there's no there's a lot. No, this is
development is really complicated and
it's complex and that's why I'm here.
So, um but no, I will get more into the
costs. Okay.
Sorry. I know talking about taxes and
how it works is kind of boring. Um
so, one way that you can help offset
some of the infrastructure costs that
we've talked about is by providing
incentives. So incentives can happen
through tax increment financing. They
can happen through pilots. These are two
things the city has done in very recent
uh history. One of the things that the
city has done for every time we've done
a a tiff a tax income refinancing is
essentially allow for almost 100% of the
value to be tiff. So it's everything but
bonds and and and some school taxes
cannot be tiffed.
And it's kind of 100% when you have Yes.
>> Could you do a brief explanation of what
a tiff is so that folks that don't know?
Does everyone know what a tiff is?
>> Yes.
>> Okay.
No, a tiff is basically the value
of the property is what it is today.
Right now it's zero because the city
owns it. A tiff basically sets the value
at what it is uh when it would turn come
off the tax roll as vacant. And so
there'd be a little value and then
anything above that could be captured to
pay for certain improvements which
there's a laundry list that we need.
Okay. Um one of the things that we know
is development's expensive and we're
going to really get into some of the
costs on development and why why things
need to have some incentives. Um and
this but what I've kind of done is show
I'm I'm going to show you right now. Oh,
sorry. So basically a developer can
collect
the increment in taxes to pay for very
specific eligible expenses. Okay? And
we'll get into what that is.
Um one of the things that the city has
not done in the past but I would
recommend for any development going
forward is if an incentive were to be
done
it couldn't go over a 50% tip. What does
that mean? It means that 50% of the
value in that increment would go to the
city for general operations. 50% would
go
to the fund to fund the improvements
that that need to happen. And so,
um, and there's a lot of benefits on why
taking 50% and and authorizing it for
TIF is important. And that's because the
city only receives,
you know, almost $2 million out of the
$6 million. And so we could actually
receive other entities taxes to help pay
for the infrastructure on their belt.
Can
>> you explain that more simply from the
point of view of the developer?
>> Yes. So a developer when a developer
comes into a city they are required to
make a profit because they are borrowing
money from a bank. Okay? And so when you
are putting all the expenses on the
table, they have to be able to pay back
the loans they're getting for this
development and make enough profit that
the bank says yes, you're not going to
go under by doing this development.
And so the city can offer it to TIFF in
order to help pay for some of the
eligible expenses to
um
to allow the
certain things to happen that to to
reduce the cost so it's not as much of a
burden so the prices can be lower and
we'll get into how we've done that. Can
you can you briefly u make a list of um
thing I don't know that might be I I
have a longer list. It's it's it's not a
brief list. It's a it's a competency.
>> Okay.
Um, but if we were to do, let's say, a, you know, a 50% tip,
uh, and we could, let's say,
hypothetically, we put $20 million, and
that's for environmental work,
which we think probably 8 to10 million
after we get done spending all of our
money is what's left on the
environmental. And then $10 million
would help go for some of the
infrastructure pieces like water and
sewer lines as well as certain roads,
land things. And so that means that the
city we would generate 2 and a half to
$3 million uh in annual tax revenue for
the jurisdiction while putting two and a
half to $3 million into the pot that
will pay for some of these expenses. And
so the city would still get a
substantial tax increase while working
to help pay off some of this this
expenses because it is more expensive
develop a contaminated piece of property
that has no infrastructure. So, just to
be clear, if for example, the developer
identified a $5 million environmental
problem,
the city could put in, I think based on
what you said, 50% or 2.5 million and
the developer would cover the other 2.5
million.
>> We're going to get that.
>> We're going to get into kind of how a
tip plan works in in like two slides, I
think. So, give me give me a little bit
of time. Look.
Okay, so here's a list of what you can
pay. And so there's two different types
of tip expenses. And I'm going to kind
of read them quickly, but once again,
you're going to have these slides, so
you can s there are um
uh brownfield eligible expenses for
environmental and then non-
environmental. These are the
environmental. So there's what phase two
basically environmental sensitive. This
is just kind of assessing the property
contaminated soil excavation. That's the
big one. um brownwater assessments,
vapor intrusion, uh exposure barriers
and control due to care activities,
ongoing monitoring, environmental
investigations, asbestous surveys,
lettuce surveys, mold surveys, hazard
material surveys, and pre-demolition
environmental assessments. So, these are
the brownfield uh environmental eligible
expenses. Okay.
Now, these are the non-environmental
that at the city being what's called a
core community, we can use. Now, cities
like Dexter and Seline and and most uh
more more affluent communities cannot
use non-environmental tiff. We are
allowed to. And so, it's something that
we can offer to help incentivize
developer come in. We have demolition,
site grading, water and sewer line
extension of replacement, road
construction, store bar management,
electrical service infrastructure,
sidewalks, parking areas, lbestus, uh
physical removal, and then housing,
which we used at Dorset. And so these
are things that we can do to actually
help incentivize bringing down the cost
of housing in certain areas. We're going
to get into some of the costs in a
minute. But so these are the main this
is why I didn't want to talk about it
because these this this is the the only
things you can use. Well, so you can't
use brownfield tiff to let's say build a
playground. Not something you can do.
But you can do it to actually help with
you know sink water sewer line clean up.
>> But then there's sidewalks and streets
you think. So you're even though there's
not a playground,
>> you could do sidewalks and street
skating, but you cannot build a
playground with tiff. And so this is
where balancing if somebody is
requesting tiff,
they can only pay for tiff eligible
expenses that have to be approved by the
county brownfield redevelopment
authority. Uh which two members of that
were here tonight. So um so there's very
specific things and so there's a a huge
agreement. It has to go before the city.
Has to go before the county brownfield
authority. Has to go before the county
board. And then it has to go before
the state agency depending on what it
is. So if it's environmental, it goes to
the Eagle. If it is if it is uh
non-environmental
or anything else but housing, it goes to
the MDC. And if it's if it's non-
environmental housing, it goes to
mission. And so all of those agencies
have to approve. So it does take a
pretty lengthy time. And so that's where
talking to Katie um and kind of figuring
out it is good to understand what the
committee here would like to actually be
able to negotiate with ahead of time
because it's good to know if this is
going to be allowed, what it is. Now,
you can also pick and choose which ones
you're not willing to negotiate. So, if
you decide, let's say sidewalks and
streetscaping is not something you're
interested in helping fund, you can say
we're not that's not something.
Um, typically what we see um in in the
city and what we we've been proven past
is certain demolition, some clearing,
water and sewer line replacement is is a
big one, some road construction and
storm water services. um electrical
services not as much that we've done but
it is something that's important
especially on water street because right
now we have a transmission line running
through it and DTE is going to require
that transmission line to be buried and
that cost is a million dollars. Now the
that's that's something where the
developer is going to have to do that
but that will add a million dollars to
any proforma that has to be filled u
make that happen
>> and the you who gets to decide this is
city council correct
>> well I believe that it's going to city
council will take a recommendation from
this board so yes city council is the
one that ultimately approves it but this
board would be the one to approve it is
that correct or will there CBL
committee.
>> This
>> it'll be this committee. This is this
committee.
>> Yeah. Yes.
>> Um
gosh, how to word my question? Um okay.
So like sidewalks and streetscaping is like pennies on a project compared to
a lot of the brownfield stuff. as as a
um as a board, could we
allocate the TIFF financing to the more
expensive stuff and then the things like
sidewalks and streetscaping? Could we
essentially require that through
our our value statements and and like
what we want to be in the project?
>> Yeah. So you can pick anything on here
that you don't want to negotiate with.
You can keep anything else in here. The
reason that
it's it's it's always a good tool to
have is uh Dorsy Estates is a is kind of
the easiest example because most people
who here has been to Dorsy Estates,
right? Um each one of those houses cost
$310,000 to build all of it. We sold
them at maximum 235. I think it's the
highest sale price just to get the house
ready to be built. That was $110,000.
So that's not putting any house that's
like to put in the infrastructure, storm
water pit, the roads, the sidewalks, all
of those things. So it was $110,000 just
for the path. Okay. And so the reason
that you want to kind of it's a way to
help bring down the cost of the
development is to offer these types of
if this committee chooses.
Um, I do think the brownfield piece is
much more important, but the brownfield
piece is something that developing on a
green field is something that you you're
never going to have to deal with. And so
this is where we can offer maybe a
little bit of a bonus to a developer to
come in and do the right type of
development
uh by allowing some of these incentives
allowed. But once again, I the sidewalks
are typically part of a development, but
once again, every little bit adds to the
cost. Thankfully,
right?
Um so
what does the 50% incentive mean in
practice? It means that after the TI
expires, um 100% of the tax revenue goes
to the taxing jurisdiction. Um, so it
allows for a temporary reinvestment of
new tax revenue. It's not a tax
abatement. It's basically developer and
the the property owners will have to pay
the taxes. Part of it goes into a fund
and then it actually can reimburse for
certain expenses. Um, without a
redevelopment on the site, the city's
not going to have any taxes. And so this
is a way to not hamstring the future
generations while generating taxes now.
Um and that also allows us to have a
cleaned up area and expand the tax uh
the the the tax revenues permanently.
Yes.
>> Question. Um so can you talk about
unless this is coming up because it
could be around um parameters for length
of time for the tips like how long and
how short do they are there mandates on
that?
>> I actually I'm not going to get into
that. So the maximum you can go for a
tiff is 30 years.
um looking at kind of a $20 million
bucket. Um
it's next slide. Um and this is a really
boring slide, but um it's looking like
the city could pay back if we offered
interest. So we could also allow for
interest uh to be paid in these things.
It would be an 11-year payback. So what
that means is the city would collect
half of the revenue for 11 years and
then after 11 years the city would
collect all of the revenue. But the
reason why it's important is 40 30 to
40% of the city's tax tax collection
actually goes to the city. And so this
would allow us to utilize
um even some school millage which is
fully reimbursed to the school district.
So the school district isn't out for uh
for Brownfield. Uh but this would allow
us to collect other villages to help pay
for these expenses. And so the city
would essentially get substantial
revenue and utilize other passing
jurisdictions to collect additional
revenue to pay for these expenses.
So the amount of time that you may
negotiate for a tiff would be based on
the amount of need
>> of need for the client.
>> Yes.
>> I I think that's important because I
didn't always understand that.
>> Yeah.
>> No. And and you know there a smaller
project and this is where sometimes
cutting up into smaller projects smaller
projects have greater needs. So, you
know, with Dorsy estates, it's actually
like 90% of the millage for for 15
years. And that was to make to because
we we substantially reduce the prices of
those houses uh through this. And so, uh
but this is just showing you how kind of
a a tiff plan works. I know that Alice
and Katie are very familiar with this
and probably knows it, but essentially
talks about, you know, escalations and
the taxable value and where it would
come to and then, you know, how how
interest is done. So, you'll have a
you'll be able to look at this. Uh but
essentially after 11 years if the
development is at $150 million the
revenue that uh would would be received
by the city uh would be
um
$63 million
>> in total.
Yeah.
>> But so we were going to the city 63
could go to actually pay for for these
expenses.
>> Yes. No.
>> What's the length of the uh longest t
currently in effect
>> for the city? 30 years.
>> And that's for what project.
So, oh,
>> no, no, I you.
>> Okay. So, so even though I'm on I I'm on
the Brownfield board, I'm very familiar
with TIFFs. The opening up of the TIFF
world to affordable housing is
relatively new.
>> Yes.
>> And and so I maybe I should know this,
but Katie can attest we're all
struggling to be on board be affordable
housing experts now, too, which is
really hard. Um, but I'm wondering if we
don't utilize TIP, are there like what
is another strategy? Because TIF is
really powerful to get affordable
housing in. TIFF is a very powerful tool
to get really like like quality
affordable housing in, right? And so if
and we've talked a lot about
affordability. So if for some reason
like tiff wasn't on the table here like
are there what other viable strategies
are there for affordable housing in this
community because I have to think the
federal money is not flowing anymore or
whatever you know like can you can you
Yeah. Thank you. Look, the only other
way truly to get affordable housing, the
state has a couple small programs, but
for the most part, it is a it's called a
low-inccome housing tax credit, which is
a federal program, but that has to be
paired with a pilot, which is a payment
in le of tax.
>> Oh, okay.
>> And so what a payment in l of tax is is
there's a an amount of taxes that is uh
based on the shelter rents that are
paid. So it's rents minus expenses. This
is what a shelter rent is. And then it's
a percentage of that. And so in the
city, our pilots's going from 1% to 10%.
And so those bring in anywhere from
50,000 to $100,000. But the way a pilot
is is constructed is basically it takes
that amount and it divies it up based on
the tax collection. So the county gets a
tiny bit, the uh the state gets a little
bit. So it's kind of broken out based on
the rents to all those people. And so
the city receives very little money. Now
what we have done to help offset that is
there also there are emergency services
agreements that can be negotiated based
on certain aspects to help pay for some
of the services that are being provided.
Um but pilots are are really uh that's
more of a a
hammer to the system because it
basically says the city doesn't collect
any revenue for the most part. Um, and
so that's where TIFF, if you do it
right, there's a way to actually use it
so the city collects a good amount of
revenue while subsidizing housing. And
so, uh, we do have the most pilots per
capita um, of in the in the in the
county.
>> We have a lot. No, I don't
to give you all a little bit of example.
>> The city of Ann Arbor has um about 200
more de restricted affordable housing
units than the city of Miami.
» And so we have about I think 1,400.
I think actually I have that. Uh so we
won't get to that. I can pull up. But I
know this is a very very and this is
also it's really hard to actually
understand because this is also we're
assuming that the the taxable value
escalation will be 2% a year, some just
more, some years less. There's so many
assumptions and that's why talking about
taxable value is really hard because it
really depends on what's on the ground
at that moment and and it's all of the
numbers I'm telling you are completely
fictitious because we have no idea what
it's actually going to come out to with
its time place and a two-year window.
Yeah. Dope to ask for more fictitious
numbers. Um,
if a tiff is applied to a residence
and I'm
while you've talked a bit about Dorsy
statements, I don't think that's a good
example because they have other kind of
limitations on the way they're handled
and sold and so on. Assuming that we're
trying to get to a what I'm going to
call a normal for the sake of discussion
single family residence owned by
somebody, the tiff is used to get us to
get an affordable piece of architecture
out there and someone uses it. Is there
some point in time when the tiff expires
where all of a sudden the taxes change
dramatically? this sort of hammer comes
down and the owner is all you know it
I'm wondering does it become a hot
potato from a tax point of view that it
that all of a sudden it jumps in value
because it's somehow
>> maybe a bad comparison but like uncapped
by the headley
>> and all of a sudden you have a big bill
>> to that is no because with with tiff
your tax bill there isn't a reduction in
the tax bill
you pay your taxes
a portion of it goes to the brownfield
fund that you can request a
reimbursement to pay for very specific
health expenses.
So you're paying the tax bill as it
stands
and and so
>> reducing other cost of living or 5%
whatever's greater or whatever's less.
Oh, every year that's based on um prop
A. And so the tax bill you pay doesn't
go up more than a typical tax bill. it
just part of that money and a 50% tiff
would
go into a fund that could be reimbursed
to pay for very specific. So when you
have a big development like would happen
here, you end up um
you end up having bills that that pile
up because all the bills are kind of
spent at the front end and then they're
kind of waiting there. And so as the
taxes come in, then you can request
reimbursement based on what is collected
from the taxes. And so there are a few
tax programs where there is a jump. And the big one on that is that
neighborhood enterprise zone where after
15 years, you go from paying very little
taxes to a huge amount of taxes. With a
tiff, you're paying roughly the same
amount of taxes the entire time.
>> Doesn't matter who owns it, sales, those
sorts of things. It'll don't become
uncapped. So if you sell the property
and if it comes out capped, there will
be that spike as as happens in in the
city which then
>> also for any purchase. It's the same on
capping.
>> It's the same on capping.
>> There's not an extra penalty because it
went from tiff to non-tiff or something
along those lines.
>> No,
>> that's what I'm trying to understand.
>> Yes, there's no additional
>> Okay. Okay.
>> The tiff deals with the revenues from
the taxes, not the value of the
property. I Yeah, I just want to make sure there's
no hidden something.
>> Yeah, valid questions.
>> Okay, so now there's a lot of things to
understand and I know I've kind of given
you a very meaty presentation and it's
going to get more meaty and I'm sorry.
Um, one thing that we get a lot is,
well, just build more density because if
you put more units in, you can make more
money, right? Like that's that's
something that I always thought until I'
I've learned a little bit more about it.
But construction costre increase with
building height. Okay, they just do
because certain things after about you
know seven stories you have to go to
steel construction. There's certain
things you can do. You do some you know
we'll get into that. Um but
realistically cost increase with the
height. Um so that's why you don't see a
whole lot of 10-story buildings unless
they're 20tory buildings. Like in Ann
Arbor you don't see a lot of 10tory
buildings being built.
20 because the cost of both a 10 story
or a 20 story the cost already kind of
sunk in because you're going to need the
same types of elevators and the same
types of steel. Um the estimate uh don't
include the remediation costs um
well once again they can be built into
that. Uh the residential development
requirements are the strictest
environmental standards. So there are
certain parts of watershed that we're
never going to clean up to single family
residential standards. Okay. But almost
any development happening in Ann Arbor
are not built to single family
residential standards because that's
where you have gardens and things like
that. Um infrastructure costs um are not
included in the cost of development and
then affordable housing on pilot. Um but
here is kind of the how to think about
it. And so threetory building, you see a
lot of those in in smaller communities
because it's wood frame. Um and those on
average cost 220 to 320 and those
numbers are a little bit low. They are
going a little bit uh a little bit more.
Um
seven stories you can do some wood over steel but about 330 to 600 uh a
square foot and then you know over over
about 10 feet 10 stories you have $430
to $1,000 per square foot. And we're
going to get into what the costs mean of
that.
Oh, but this is where, as you can see,
the taller you build, more expensive per
square foot it is. Now, the state is
actually working to change some of
things. I've heard that they either just
passed or about to pass a a double
staircase requirement that actually will
bring down a little bit, but when you
get above seven stories, you have to
have a special freight elevator and
things like that. Yes,
>> I just got rid of that.
>> I saw so this presentation was already
created when that happened, but
>> yeah,
>> hat off the presence. So it's that
square footage uh or footprint of the
building or per uh floor space for the
entire building.
um
total per square footage is is that cost
and it's kind of average silver
but this is where once again you can see
it's double the cost to go from a three
story to a 10 story at least right and
we have an architect here I don't think
my numbers might be a little low but
they're not it's
>> I don't necessarily do 10 buildings but
I think
>> it is more complex to build those those
buildings however What this group should
also understand is the impact on um city
infrastructure is dramatically lower.
You don't have to plow more. You don't
have more sewer lines. You don't have
more of a lot of things. Um you know,
police response times to a 10-story
building is the same as to a twotory
building. All of those things are true.
So, you know, the collective term that
we use is strong.
you can have more people living in a
smaller footprint and other city
services which are money over time. So
we're talking money are much less.
So this is a does this help people to
kind of understand a little bit? Um,
okay. So, now this is where
this isn't meant to shock or alarm
anyone, but this is just
>> this is just what it is. Okay.
>> So,
>> uh, Thompson block uh is three floors
uh, 1250 12,500T per floor. So, 37
37,500
foot. This cost a total of $12,187,500
to renovate. Okay.
>> Does that factor in the whole drama of
that building?
>> Uh it it factors in the most recent
developers iteration.
>> Okay.
>> Um to hit an 8% return, which is
required by any bank. Uh a $325 per
square foot building. Uh that's how much
it would cost per square foot to build.
And so this is kind of build a building
this size. You know, we would look at a rental unit about $6,000 a month,
right?
Um our market rents in Ipsy are 14 to
$1,900.
And so that's where we have to figure
out if we want housing in the city.
We're not we don't want houses to be
built for $6,000. that there's a ton of
Airbnbs at that too. So, it's not really
affording anyone any housing.
>> It's also not a really great example of
how to build housing in that it was
being built in a 1800s building that
part had all kinds of environmental
issues and part of them were
self-inflicted wounds over years. So,
it's not a great example for how to get
to housing.
It's an example within the city, but
it's not how you do things.
Yes, 100%. U Centennial building, six
floor building, 6400,000 square ft. The
cost to build this today would be almost
$19 million. The rents on that, make
sure you get the rate of return, would
be
um almost triple what they are
building. So um that's something where
we there is a significant gap to try to
get this happen. So um once again this
is just the cost based on square
footage.
So are these slides just to give
everybody
a perspective of if we're going to go as
a committee that we push it for housing
what that really look like? Joe, the
intent of this is just to show this
committee what it costs to build, right?
Oh, I understand that, you know,
everyone
it's it's hard in my opinion, this is
where I'm more of a visual learner and
so it's good to see, okay, for us to
build this building right now, it would
be $19 million.
We would have to triple the rent and
those rents are not actually that cheap
because they're much small. They're
really small offices right now. Um, but
it does cost a lot to build a building
today, much more than it does to
actually rehab some of these buildings.
So, um, that's kind of what I'm trying
to show is that if we want to keep our
rents at roughly the same or maybe a
little bit higher, we have to figure out
a way to help fill that gap because
right now
we would have to triple the rents
essentially to get it to a point where
we would want. So like that basically a
be counterproductive tool making
affordable housing.
>> There's a way to do affordable housing
with attainable housing with market rate
housing. There's a way to do all of
that. But we have to figure out, are we
going to take a hit on the taxes side
like we do with most pilots to get the
affordable housing or are we going to
try to get some more market rate housing
in order to help fill some of the city's
tax, you know, potentially bring down
our tax rates to help make housing a
little bit cheaper for everyone. And so
there's no there's no there's no good
solution. I don't have a solution. This
isn't a recommendation. system.
>> So when I think of developments that
have worked that I've uh experienced
either like in New York there's
Roosevelt Island or in Portland there
was a Reno station and I don't know how
it was done but could there be a mixture
so that developers would uh bringing in
would have to work with pilot programs
as well also that way uh those pilot
programs aren't ghettoized you know but
they're actually living within
all strata, you know, mixed in. So that
was it created a very peaceful
environment because there was no nobody
without resources and nobody else uh
stigmatizing anyone else because
everybody you know millionaire right
next to someone um that kind of thing.
So if there's a way to combine them so
you have and in terms I think density is
important especially for impact on land
but also having different kinds of
housing is important.
>> There is a way to do it. The state of
Michigan struggles when it comes to
affordable housing where they don't
typically like Dorsia Estates is one of
the first true integrated
multi-income developments. Typically
there's a pilot even at um
what is the place by where you work the
new
>> Vidian.
>> Yeah,
>> there is a very specific Avalon housing
part of that development. And then
there's the Vidian group because the way
pilots lit texts work is the lite tech
is typically part of it. We would love
to see more integration as far as
partial
pilot in a building.
Well, we don't get to dictate to the
state how their incentives are working.
I mean, we got the first uh Misha
funding for a brownfield program in the
state in the city of Sandy and we had to
push hard and that was based on
relationships. Misha had never once
funded a brownfield project in the state
and so it's working collaboratively and
with all of our partners uh to help push
some of these things. But I do not know
and I could be wrong and just this is
just my knowledge. I do not know of a
mixed piloted project that has ever been
done in this in the state. We would love
to see it.
» Now, Ann Arbor has some things because
they actually have they build the
density and so they just require as part
of this to have X number units be
affordable. Once again, their rents are
$4,000. So, they can actually dictate
more than what our rents are because we
don't want our rents
Yes.
>> Is it even feasible to have $4,000 rent
here?
>> I hope not.
>> No. No. But I mean, no. From a practical
standpoint, would a would anyone move
here and pay $4,000 a month?
>> I mean, there are people who list their
houses for $5,000 a month. Um, I don't
think they did that, but there are
people who try. Um,
I don't think so. But as housing becomes
more and more scarce
and more and more expensive to build,
like materials are not becoming any
cheaper.
So, we keep putting more tariffs on
them. So, it's challenging.
I I wanted to echo that to you too, but
basically what Diana was saying to a lot
of people that not developers they still
like they still buy those properties
that they Airbnb it out. So they not
necessarily having somebody longterm
there but you know with the times that
could be something to think about.
>> So there are ways and we have we stopped
the ability to do that in Dorsy estates.
So Dorsy estates you can you have to be
homeowner occupied. So there are ways we
can do that. However,
um
that is a give that you have to give up
and so you have to there is give and
take there and that's where being able
to negotiate.
There should be a difference between
like short-term rentals and, you know,
having mixed family, you know, people
being able to live in chosen families
and and not that I would want them there
more either, but um
I miss the last maintenance is is has
the consensus been that this is
development is going to be housing?
» You be the
Nothing's
been
» I just want to take a temperature check
because we're at about 8:10 and I know
we have a lot of thing things on the
agenda. We have a we have a lot of
questions and this is important stuff.
So
>> okay I'll
So then the ne the next fun problem is the tax planning which I think
everyone's heard of. Uh but I quote up
the hard numbers. Okay, if you haven't
heard of the tax exempt land problem in
the city city is is 4 and a half square
miles.
>> Here we go.
>> Um, and this is uh this is where we're
at. About 45% of our land is actually
tax.
So that means that 55% of land is not
where does that land go? 26% is eastern.
11% is right of way roads, sidewalks,
things like that. Uh 63
163 acres city owned, 134 is school and
uh county owned. 82 is church owned. Uh
73% is deed restricted affordable
housing, which means we're not clutching
really for any real taxable value. And
then 33 acres is nonprofit. And so that
kind of is that is the whole pie of
where our city's uh land is, which makes
it a fl because we have very little land
that actually is taxable in the city. uh
which creates many many challenges. Now
to dig even deeper into this. So for
each of the land uh in the city's tax
exempt um meaning less than the half the
city generates tax revenue. Went through
that uh way we have our develop the land
is scarce and every parcel matters and
decisions of how we do that should be
great obviously.
Um now not all city land is developed
right. Uh so out of the 63.3 acres of
land over the city
163 sorry all right this is why didn't I
want to make sure that's correct 75 are
parks uh and our parks are pretty much
parks a lot of our parks are parks
because you can't develop on like you
can't develop at Riverside Park because
it's floodway you can't develop on
waterworks park you can't develop on on
Peninsula Park there's just parkland
that you cannot develop on and I don't
think the city would want us to turn
Prospect Park or Candy Cane Park into a
bunch of housing. I don't think that's
really what the city wants to do. Um 7.7
acres are city facilities. Um 5.7 acres
are public parking lots, which I'm not
giving up on the fact that we need all
those parking lots. I think we need
parking, but I also think that there's
ways to take corporate parking into
development. Um and then 10.6 acres are
constrained parcels. So we have a former
city dump. We have uh a big couple we
have a couple walls in the in in the
south side that are kind of there um
that are are city owned but not really
developable. Um and then we have a
property on 1 Avenue that has a
developer speed which we're working on.
Uh so that leaves 42.5 acres of the city
are potentially
developable. However, most of them are
severely constrained and 38 acres of
this is Wall Street. So realistically,
some people say the city has a bunch of
land that we could develop unless we
want to start hacking away parks, which
I don't think is our wants. That's kind
of where this is for most intents and
purposes. the last mighty
>> where the where that taxable gap is and
what's serving the community. Not that
Eastern's not serving the community, but
I mean like they could be paying whether
it's through services or taxes like
that's a huge percentage. So it seems uh
>> immoral to then take that load and
burden and do it to to housing. You know
what I mean? like that. That's where
we're expected to oh, you know, where we
don't have enough taxable or low and top
shops or, you know, or have more Dollar
Generals. It's not even a good dollar
store. Just
>> Well, I'm I'm working with the mayor
right now to actually get a meeting with
the president to talk about potential
sales because EMU when I was at Eastern,
we had 25,000 students. Now we're about
13,000 students. The campus has changed
and the future of universities have have
changed. Um, and so there are some lands
that the university isn't using that we
want to have the conversation with them
about because I think it's important.
>> Yeah, I I would just add to briefly.
>> Um, yeah, 50% of the 50% that is untaxed
is eating, right? And so we have um with
the new president immediately came in
open and you know willing to have
dialogue about how does the university
give back you know to the community that
could be selling land or other services.
So we are in active conversation with me
pretty often and I'm on the strategic
planning committee so that the the point
is that was in lock step together of how
do you make this make sense for for both
of us as the university goes so the city
>> one of the things that Katie asked me to
talk about was setting aside land and
water street for parks essentially and
so in looking at it right now 38 acres
is what we consider water street however
31 of them are developable because of
the river trail. So, we got a grant to
put in the Water Street Trail, which is
beautiful. You haven't been on it,
please go. It's amazing. But that takes
out about seven of the acres of the 38
acres. So, right now, Water Street
already has a 7 acre park ended in the
middle. If we set aside, let's say,
three remaining acres as as park, um
that would move three developable acres.
Creating a dedicated park
would add funding that the city has to
pay to maintain and create a park. As as Allison knows, parks are really cheap
and easy to create.
Joe um
and you can get grants for these things,
but almost every park development grant
has a 50% match. So regardless, let's
say it cost a million dollars to create
a new park. You're looking at uh uh you
know, it's a million dollars, it's
$500,000 the city has to come with up
with locally to actually put into that
park on top of me.
So you have the long-term maintenance
and design and construction. I'm going
to finish this letter and then I'll get
back to you. And then so realistically
if you take 10% of the land out of the
ability to develop it then that's 10 to
15% but less property taxes and then you
can add new cost every year to maintain
that park. The best way that I have seen
to actually do it is through a process
like this where any developer would have
to build a park and then dedicate it
back to the city. So then you do have
the operating costs, but the cost to
actually develop that park is part of
the developing agreement. And so if they
have to create it and then turn it back
over, that at least has the development
costs off the city's hands.
Joy,
>> my my question is of the acreage that
are currently parks, how would you
characterize our ability to maintain
those acres? getting better
>> from a monetary point of
>> oh it costs a lot and and
I guess I guess I'm trying to put a
number on it to a certain extent and I
realize it's abstract question but on a
scale of 1 to 10 or
a a monetary scale of 1 to 10 what are
we spending if 10 is what we should be
spending
>> in in all actuality we're probably
spending3
to $400,000 a year to maintain our parks
and that is not doing the capital
improvements needed to mention.
>> And what should that number be?
>> Probably a million
>> a year. Thank you.
>> Cuz most of our cars ain't got no
>> working on it.
>> Trying.
>> Are like natural preserved areas
a thing that can happen?
>> They are. You don't typically see a
natural preserve area in a city like
ours because we have much less land and
we have more urban parks typically. Now
with that said, peninsula park will
probably become the closest thing we
have to a natural park especially
because we'll be expanding it when we
move dam. Uh however that's kind of rare
in a city of our size to have a natural
area because typically the average
national area is hundreds of acres and
we don't have hundreds of acres. And
Allison, correct me if I'm wrong, but
like they still require maintenance
costs and
>> Yeah. And you'd still run into the same
issues with Water Street where that
we've talked about with like some other
things where it's like it is dirty
property and is the best use of that to
be held in the natural state. And the
answer unfortunately might not be yes. I
mean it might look good to have trees
growing on it, but it might actually be
detrimental to
sucking up whatever's in the ground and
passing it on to birds. it's not
helpful. So, you get a lot more
skepticism from you would get a lot more
skepticism on from folks um like at
least from the county or other funding
agencies on creating a public park out
of a brown field or a natural area south
of a brown field. Not to say there's not
valuable green space in this mix, but it
» you have anything, Steve?
>> Uh,
>> you got to raise your hand.
>> Your money.
>> I did, but
>> Okay. No. So, this is kind of going This
is where am I am I Oh, yeah.
>> I just wanted to add to that. If we
wanted to make it a park or a preserve,
we would still have to clean it up
first, right?
>> Yeah. Because with the city can't just
polish it something when it's
contaminated because then we would have
the liability,
>> right,
>> of anyone visiting.
>> Yes.
>> Yeah. We still legally have to have a
fence right now and will even after the
cleanup this fall for a portion of it.
Unfortunately,
>> every development party, every has to
have infrastructure, storm water
management, roads, utilities, parking,
public amenities. Carving out the public
land before we actually set it up for an
RFP would increase the cost, but also
constrict a developer to use a piece of
property. I'll give you an example. You
can do a lot of really cool storm water
management in the middle of a park that
like just looks like it's part of a
park. Uh whereas we said this piece of
property can't be used for anything
because it's going to be public land. It constrains certain aspects that maybe
the potential best area for infiltration
of storm water. And so the better
approach is to require um a developer to
construct public spaces and then
transfer back to the city like I said
and reserves uh you know that certain
areas that are prone to flood plane open
space um could actually be part of the
development and utilized as part of the
overall ecosystem
and like for lack of a really bad 90s
movie biodome where you can use certain
parts for certain things um and still
have it be open to the public. I've
never used biod in public meeting
before, but I should do understand that
there are places that you can do one
thing that also do another. Um, and to
say we have an expectation that there is
a public park in this development that
you create, but we're going to let you
master plan.
All right. after all this. Oh, that
would be a good slide. Um,
I'm not going to get through to this
slide. So,
um, takeways I'm hoping you get from
this. If we're at $75 million in new
taxable value, $6 million roughly up to
$2 million
um of taxable value to the city. Um we
are going to need some sort of
incentive. Uh and $20 million is kind of
just an idea. uh there is a gap in some
of the taller buildings and so just
beginning to understand that
» based on the fictitious
water that you spilled in your mind.
>> Sure.
>> That generates 1.7 to 1.9 million
taxable
>> to the city.
>> What would it take to maintain those 38
acres from the point of view of the
city? Is the 1.7 to 1.9
>> just enough?
>> Is it is there extra revenue there?
>> So it all sort of roughly roughly all
in.
>> Yeah. So it really depends on how it's
laid out, right? Because the less dense,
the more sprawling a development, the
more it actually costs the city to
maintain. So if you have a single family
home, the city provides trash. If you
have a apartment complex, they have to
provide their own trash service. Um, if
it's a public road, the city has to
maintain those roads. Um,
you know, I would say that,
you know, single family residential is
the most expensive type of land use to
have because still
you don't have economies of scale. But you the assumption in your $150
million
isn't just single family residential.
It's it's a complex mix of things. But
of course, it's also fictitious. So it's
completely fake.
>> I'm not I'm not putting you on the spot
in that regard.
>> But
my question is, is the city expecting
at the level of development you're
thinking? Would the city be expecting
that there's extra money?
>> Yes. Yeah, they're just going to have to
pay for the
>> No, I would say there would be money I
mean the city's
most of the city's basic costs are
already there. So, it's not like we
would need to add an fire department to
cover this.
» Let's see.
>> Yeah. So, height is is a thing, right?
So, we just purchased a new truck that
can go to a certain height.
>> Yeah.
>> And if we build higher than that, then
we have to increase our infrastructure
for that doing that.
>> But like what's I mean, we want
development, right? We can't have
development without some like sooner or
later there's going to be costs related
to that come back to the city.
>> It's actually a reasonable question in this context is
>> what is the highest building
>> right now? a 10 story I think 11 story
building is the tallest building we
haven't seen.
>> I but but but my my point is until you
actually see what the development I feel
like we're almost getting like too
theoretical here like until you actually
see what a proposal is to ask what it's
going to cost the city to maintain it to
me seems like a little bit beyond. So,
I'm sorry I'm just kind of trying to
like bark back figure out.
>> I I get that. My question had to do more
with it. That's a kind of an abstraction
because that's what it is. Um, does it
feel like it's
enough just sort of, oh, that's going to
be what it costs to maintain that
environment as opposed to, oh, that's
twice as much money as it would cost to
maintain that environment.
>> No, the city of Ann Arbor doesn't have a
ladder truck that gets to the top of the
20 store building. No,
>> like there's the ladder truck's a ladder
truck. We're required to have one
because we have 10tory buildings. We're
not going to need a new ladder. Like I
said, I don't see us really needing even
a new ship to build a new fire station.
Like that's fine. City hall, we're not
going to hire new staff because
realistically, we could add a thousand
residents and and not do it. Now,
policing, that gets to be a little bit
more challenging. If we are adding a
thousand new residents, we might need
potentially there, but once again, we'll
be able to to figure that out over time.
And so I don't I think that this would
be overall how how it's constructed a
net positive which is what we do need as
a city. We need a positive increase in
tax tax.
Um what that exact number is would be
really determined on the values as they
come in because once again I'm picking a
lot of these numbers off the air. Uh
because you have to have an idea. I
don't think I I mean I I hope you
understand tax value a little bit better
today than you did before you walked in
here um and how incentives work a little
bit better and I also can sit down with
any of you individually uh to go through
it. Uh I'm also not the best I'm not the
authority on any of this. Uh it's just
I've I've dealt with enough projects. I
do understand.
I also think it's important that like at
this stage for the RFQ like it's
important for us to have this theory in
our brain but like it doesn't have to be
in the RFQ at the moment right like
people are going to submit their
qualifications then we'll enter
negotiations where we'll start to like
talk about these things which will be
like step two or three right like we're
on step one which is I'm not saying it's
not important it absolutely is important
for us to have a concept of I just want
to make sure that we don't get stuck in these details trying to nail
that down in the RFQ and I don't know
that we will have an answer until we
have a developer who we actually want to
talk to and begin to negotiate with.
Like I don't think that that's right
like
but this is conceptual as we
>> gut check. Who here feels like they kind
of understand the moment a tiny bit
better?
Who here has a lot more questions?
>> No. So once again questions.
>> Yeah. Um, but I know it's a lot and I'm
sorry and I went way over time. I
promise maybe I'd be done in 40 minutes.
That didn't happen.
But is there any last questions?
And you will get this presentation. I
just know of three errors that I need to
fix before.
>> And we can always have Joe back or ask
questions or I can bring answers.
>> Also, if you think of anything here,
I'll pass around on the top of my cards.
Email me. I'm here to I'm here to help
whoever watch
Excuse me. We took a lot of time with
this. So, I'm going to make sure when we
do get off into our um discussion that
we talk
>> that we try to be try to be somewhat
concise. If there's anything that
somebody need to talk to somebody
directly about wait or get somebody
number or something so we kind of start
moving frankly I feel like the intensity
for this for me is going to feel like we
not doing nothing proper get we trying
to figure out
process on this where we not be
>> and we got Adam's communication to kind
of have these sidebar things like that
>> collective you know, theoretically, conceptually,
let's just get the work.
» Well, some folks have sent it in, some
folks haven't. So, I think that it but
yeah, I think that um however you guys
want to do it.
>> So, is it cool for anybody who don't
want to physically share to put it in
email? I say already, so we still have
it. That's cool. Everybody cool with
that? Anybody opposed? Okay. Can we have
like maybe three or four people share
theirs that more of maybe want to be
more a little bit articulate. So break
that down. Is that cool as well? Any
objections? Okay. So who would like to
share their benefits and beliefs?
I would share my I was really proud that
they got I could do it in like one
minute and I like I was like really like
no we got like don't need don't need to
take too much time and and I I thought
your writing was beautiful and I would I
want to go like it was really nice just
that you spend that time to write that
out. So I'm going to mirror that and put
this in an email just to share for Katie
for a little bit more to digest. I think
after crunching this over my mind a lot,
I think three things that are important
to me to see Water Street moved with are
concept of sustainability,
affordability, and connectivity or
possibly movement. Um, which is how I
see that site integral into how our
whole community moves around. I won't
want to try to explain more because you
can pass to somebody else, okay,
>> third one was what?
>> Connectivity.
or movement.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I had move in my head and I
was like, "What was it?"
>> Yeah.
>> Connectivity. Okay.
>> Thanks.
» Uh I'm not gonna be our two articulate.
I just feel like even this coming with
that after that presentation, I probably
have to go back and chuck mine and come
back. But more importantly, I think that
we have to keep the people first with
this more so because it's not just like
a uh like it's it's got to be practical,
you know? I know we got McDonald. We got
to be practical, too. So, You know, we
got to be practical. I didn't know that
we only had this amount of taxable
stuff. So, we trying to think about how
we going to sustain a city for 100 years
is stuff that we can't even do if it was
200 years, you know? So,
we have to think about that in a sense
like we can we can reference in Arbor
and Arbor is a affluent wealthy town.
So, I don't want nobody paying $6,000
for nothing is because I know everybody
around this boy ain't got it like that.
So I want to bring people that's not
from to come with their money to come
bring different values to the community
that may in turn changes from some of us
not here. Our legacy is not here to
really keep what it is. So just I don't
know.
» Anybody else?
>> So we can put it into the email. email.
>> Oh, did you? I just I just
>> I want to hear
>> I just got Diana's
>> want to hear yours at all.
>> But
I'm scared to say like I feel like my
values like are we using value in like
what I want or value in
>> what you want to make you love.
>> Okay. So not not like high level. No,
this is you. Who are you?
>> Straight up.
>> I think so. When I I tried to think
about a little bit before this, but I
don't think I have a complete thought. I
think I value connectivity. I value
complete streets. Um, following like the
there's NACTO urban design guide.
There's the complete street principles
that are available online. I value those
being followed. Um, I value
connectivity. That's part of that. And I
value diversity in in use type in
construction. Um, and I
I'll get there.
>> Thank you.
>> What is diversity and use type in
construction?
>> I guess I know what diversity and use.
What does diversity and construction
mean? like um you know like maybe
there's town homes, maybe there's
duplexes, maybe there's five over one um
which is like um
four levels of apartments above one
floor, which would in my opinion make
sense on Michigan Avenue and help to to
calm Michigan Avenue from the racetrack
is
So, oh, one more thing. Um, sorry. I
value um making sure the community is
heard and we haven't had a lot of
community input um from people showing
up to this meeting, but we do have the
recordings from when Carl Wartman did
the community input sessions. And so, I
would value that we go back and listen
to what the community said that as well.
I want to uplift what had added to the
agenda too about having all of our
meetings like scheduling more of them
and that way we promote it to our
community.
>> Yes,
>> I would like to have it at different
places too like outside and any um
can move to the review.
Yeah.
Oh, okay.
So there were a couple sections that are int that I put comments that
were there was a values section I
believe that said committee
and then there was also
>> I think if you say item five you want to
address eight eight and nine
What Adam did you know verse
» eight I'm sorry
>> that was in the minutes was eight and
nine so yeah he was talking about the hundredyear vision and how we use
that
>> I think is how he what we wanted so we
can have that discussion
>> yeah the floor we going with it
» I as I said before so they eat
characterize as my relationship did not
characterize my relationship to the
100red-year vision the way I saw it.
You're talking about bullet point.
No, he's talking about the hundredyear
vision that
» in the minutes
>> item eight and nine
did not characterize
my relationship to 100year vision the
way I had expressed it at last meeting
earlier it was said that then there'll
be maybe a note added to say that Yes.
Yep. And I will change the minutes.
However, I think the dis it's to your
eyes to determine do you want to have
that discussion now of whether or not
you'll use the 100red-year vision as an
agenda to the RFQ cuz that was the
discussion that was at the last meeting
>> that he's saying he's not comfortable
with. I thought there was consensus.
There is not.
I would also like to say that at the
meeting I told Chuck that I would send
pictures of the post-it notes that we
all took so that you could see the
different handwritings and stuff and I
didn't do that until the beginning of
this meeting. I'm sorry but now you have
them. So maybe they can be reviewed and
then we can touch base on that after
but you have them now.
It feels like the logical question is
maybe what doesn't align. We weren't
here, so this is going over us. What
doesn't align? What is what part of the
hundred-year vision doesn't align? What
needs to be changed?
>> There there are numerous things they can be interpreted as word
smithing, but in my mind, they're not.
And therefore for me to start waiting
into
certain concepts in there
would take some time and that's not
allowed that's not allocated right now.
And so just numerous points and um
from my perspective they're not
superficial. They would require a little
bit of discussion. So I I don't know how
this group would like to deal with that.
how much time you think you need and
then we would allocate that to discuss
it if it's just equally as important I
think to us that we do agree with it. So
if we're going to come to a conflict we
need to discuss it. So how much time do
you think you need?
>> Um I honestly don't know. Um
half an hour would be more.
» I'm okay with that but I don't have it
in front of me at all. Yeah,
>> maybe you don't have the year vision.
>> Thought it was distributed to everyone.
>> I haven't like really looked at the last
and I was just going to say I feel like
if this is the discussion we're getting
into, maybe should this be on the agenda
for next meeting where we can actually
reread it. I don't think that it's not
fresh in my mind. I don't really there
anymore. So, you know, maybe that's
something that we bring back and we we
take a look at. The one thing I really
liked about that vision is I I think if
we like try to get us all on board with
the vision statement, that could be a
really hard thing because we're going to
bring a lot of different perspective to
it. Um just kind of to share my take on
that thing. Um it's just that it it
provides there is a very formal RFQ
that's happening here that is going to
be like very engineered and my god wait
till you see the brownfield plan that'll
be a result of this. like there is a lot
of very strict
writing detail, you know, that that
100-year vision is the only thing that
I've seen us like, you know, produced
yet that actually has some kind of a
community voice in it. Now, is it
perfect for everybody? No. You know, I'm
not going to say that that vision has to
be in 100% agreement. But I do think
it's really nice to bring something in
that talks that that speaks a little bit
to like who we are as a community and
not,
you know, what how long is the border to
border trail? What is our population
density? And so maybe we can kind of
work on that in our value in the vision
and goal statements to try to bring our
voices in that way. If maybe that would
be like a better way of Chuck that we
could kind of like move that.
>> I think so. And that's why I say it's
hard for me to say because I mean
certain things are questions or you know
expressions that I think need to be um
discussed and and altered. But some of
them is I'm I'm basically saying there
are things missing,
>> which means I can't tell you how long it
would take to discuss it.
>> Sure,
>> there's there there's information and
things that are not contained that need
to be contained. From my perspective,
you can all disagree and that's
perfectly fine. But from my perspective,
there's chunks of things missing and
therefore how do we discuss that
because the the author of it put in what
the author of it put in and I'm saying
from my perspective, I would put in
other things because I value them.
>> I I think she wasn't just an author
though. she was facilitating a meeting
and so again
>> so maybe
>> we can't wait I'd let me finish my
thought so uh we can't read your mind so
I don't know if you have two thoughts
that of things that are missing or 10 or
50 so this is why uh I understand that
if you know maybe you just said 30
minutes you in terms of to have a uh a
reasonable discussion where we're
actually getting to the meat of whatever
you think you're missing because again
we can't read your mind
let us know and then we can allocate to
discuss it.
>> Wait, wait, wait. So, I want you to go
to your thought and we'll go straight to
you. Go ahead.
>> Um,
in a way, I don't
» the things that I think that that might,
you know, might be missing, um, I think
are are also things I have brought up in
other meetings. So, it's not that it's
automatic that they weren't stated. I
wrote them on note cards or post-it
sheets and so on. Um, and it's just a
matter of how things get translated. And
when you have three minutes to write on
a post-it note, um, complex thoughts
that you might have had for a long
period of time, I mean, you know,
sometimes it's still hard to get them to
get them in there just quite right. And
I understand that. I can appreciate why
that's hard. But, um, uh, I think these
are
We're talking about
planning something that is for the next
hundred years or more and we're spending
just a couple hours doing it.
I I have pointed that out before.
There's an irony there that's
tremendous.
Um
these sorts of projects have
I have personal experience with them.
people spend a whole lot more time
planning and talking and and waiting
through this stuff, a lot more than this
group is doing. Um,
and so I mean we can spend the time that
we have and that's great. We can do the
best job that we can given the time we
have. But as I say with respect to the
100red-year vision, there are things in
it that I think I personally would like
to talk more about.
>> What? Give me an example. an example.
Um, the 200-y year history from today
back is not well represented.
» Thank you. Um maybe is it possible to
share with us the 100year vision in the
same edit editable format as um the
first
draft that he's done like a doc that we
could comment in so that maybe we could
do homework and see um before the next
meeting.
>> Yep.
>> Question. Do we have any more like
presentations or anything that we have
to do before our next meeting?
>> Not unless there's any that you guys
want. I don't think there's any other
ones that we had that I remember hearing
that you guys wanted thus far because
we've done
>> So, I'm asking that can we all agree
upon maybe the first 30 minutes with the
No, 7:15 was cool. I like that. Give
everybody a chance to actually get in.
I felt
like I feel like I feel like like to his
echo his voice like we are we have a
serious task on our hands and yes we
could do all the outside research and
come inside here but we need to have a
set place where we can't like talk you
know like talk
informally about it but we got to really
kick it more about this situation so I
can't really know what he said because
he's got a lot of history to bring that
might change my whole thought process
first scenario. So, it's like what are we going to do?
>> So, and I'm looking at this is this the
hundredyear vision we talking about
standing on the water street in 21.
>> So, it's a lot more that people wants to
add. I get it. This was generated after
we had met over there in the cold space.
>> Yes,
>> there's been more.
» Well, Nina, keeping it real for us. This
has been good. It's been good tonight.
>> Normally it's this is the place where
» I do totally understand what you're
saying. I agree to a certain extent that
we need to kind of have more time to be
kicking and kicking and actually get to the bottom of this. So, uh, is it
okay we all agree on dedicating the
first 35 minutes with a hard 7:35 stop?
>> A a Joe Meyer 35 minutes.
>> No, like
>> it will be it will be a Joe Meyers.
>> We end the discussion here like to limit
the time just because I think when the
idea is fresh, right, I'm more
interested and engaged and then if we
have a hard stop, we can come back to
it. probably I would like to I also
think that it needs more discussion but
I also think like I can't sit on one
theme for two hours and still have be as
enthusiastic as I was at the beginning
of it.
>> Yep. I think that makes sense. So 30
minutes for the hundredyear vision
discussion at the next meeting.
>> Yes.
>> Got it. What are we asking that we bring
more to it from each of us or we try to
let
>> So either you comment in the document in
between now and then because I'll send
it out
>> or you can bring your thoughts to the
meeting and communicate them there.
>> Right. The other thing I would ask is
that anybody who hasn't either spoken
tonight about their values or hasn't
emailed me to still do that because then
what I'll do is I'll compile those in
that section of the document. So then we
can also review that and so then we're
making progress on talking about those
values and
>> benefits that we want to see in a
development. And so if so again, if you
haven't commented on that tonight or if
you haven't emailed it to me, make sure
you do that so that everybody's voice is in there. And then I'll put I'll put
everybody's even if they seem
duplicitous so that then you guys can
see kind of the entire list even
repetitive repeated so that
>> Oh, I want to ask you if you could send
it back out.
>> Yes.
>> I'll be at work. I'll be busy.
>> You're fine. Yeah. No, that's that's
great. It just it's just sending me the
values and that you have.
>> Oh, so you just want me to say values
and split
>> and what they are. Yep.
>> Shout out to the team. I think we came
up with our system, too. So, is there
anybody that is opposed to our first 35
minutes
being you know, like 15 minute cond
real discussion because if everybody's
here at 7 o'clock, that actually gives
us 35 real minutes to really kick it.
>> All right, show us the hands.
>> Wait a minute. We're showing if we
object to it.
If you No,
>> if you agree. I'm trying to get
consensus.
>> Plus the uh I'm sorry.
>> Yes. Plus the
>> values. So then how long do you guys
want to spend on the values then at the
next meeting
reviewing it?
>> A couple seconds. So I feel like it's
like once you compile that thing, we all
be able to see what's what. Then I feel
like we can leave a a good 10 minutes.
>> Okay.
>> So that somebody can say, "Hey, I have
>> Ron over here making decisions tonight.
Oh,
>> fifth thing is I got questions for
clarification because something people
are saying is like kind of like that's
what it is. So either you get it or not,
we might have clarification, right?
>> So like clarification moments. So I
think
>> so 10 to 15 minutes there
>> by 7:45 we can get into actual handling.
Yeah.
>> Yeah. 15.
>> 10 to 15. I mean maybe we'll take that
long but yeah.
>> I say 15, right? We got the
>> I have I have a question. I'm I don't
know that I'm advocating for this, but
I'm just wondering if this seems to be
part of this discussion. So, we talk
about like our interest in the
hundredyear statement and how to put
some of that in some respect into here.
Um and then we're talking about how to
put our values that we're gathering, you
know, again, somehow into this into some
statement.
>> Where does the community benefits? I
think there and that values is that
that's that's what I'm that's sort of
what I'm calling the values is values
slashbenefits that you like things that
you want to see right like and I think
that some people are like some people
are saying affordability right so like
that's a benefit that we would want to
see is affordability
>> so use our values
>> a benefit would be sustainability a
benefit would be connectivity
>> safe or complete streets right like
those would be the benefits that we want
to see from something
>> okay thank you I needed in my mind to
get to where that organization request.
Thank you.
>> So if you if you use if you look at the guide that came for the CBO and the
» All right. If if you use the guide that
was provided in the in the book, right?
>> Or
>> try to relate the the the benefits to to
that uh structure to have big.
>> Okay. Um that way it gives us a
framework for explaining how those
values have meaning to the to the
developer when they read the park.
>> Okay. Thank you. Putting those things.
>> So that's looking by like 7:50 of each
meeting. However, we about to use these
last
>> it look like we're going to have a good
hour or so to really transition to get
to work.
Have we
>> have we've reviewed the like are we
leaving room for reviewing the RFQ at
all?
I mean, I guess the question also
becomes like with with the rest of it
because a lot of it is regulatory,
right? Like a lot of it's like apply by
this time, do this time, like right like
it's a lot of that sort of structure and
I'm happy for you guys to edit it or
make changes. I just haven't gotten a
lot of that yet. Uh in the other
document, um I did get a couple, but
then now we have a new document that AKT
has gone through and I I feel like it's
a lot more solid than the previous
document. And I'm happy again I'm happy
to send it out for you guys to give me
as much feedback as you want to give me.
I'm just not getting a lot of that. And
so and then we add review RFQ to every
agenda and then we
>> I have to do it things to review in the
RFQ if we have time to talk about
reviewing the RFQ.
>> Let's do it.
>> Um I want to talk about 8.0 city vision
and goals.
» It's page 22.
on the package.
» Okay. Um it says committee needs to
provide overall vision uh for water
street. I would suggest including design
types that the committee does not want
to see. Uh we are requesting a
conceptual design approach as part of
the submitt. So we need to make sure
this section is cleared. So, the
information provided meet items. Okay.
And so, it's asking us to name some
things that we don't want. And I have a
list of them. And so, I don't want any
industrial uses on the site.
Uh, I don't want any traditional
one-story strip malls. I don't want big
box stores. I don't want standal
standalone drive-thru restaurants like
Burger King because drive-throughs
uh contribute to sprawl and create a lot
of
like circulation problems.
Um
that's my list. I And you know what?
I'll also add
detached single family housing.
>> Yeah. You say the second and third one
again. I got the industrial type which I
agree
>> the traditional one. I mean
>> yeah I missed the second one too.
Industrial
>> story strip
>> one story
>> which I agree to
big box stores.
>> What's that? That's what I got.
>> That's like Walmart
» grocery store.
Can you talk a little bit more about
what you mean by industrial? There are
industrial zonings that are defined.
There's light industrial, heavy
industrial. Depending on the nature of
where you are and what they value, they
might describe it differently. If
someone wanted to make
>> I'm okay with light industrial.
>> Make cabinets.
>> Yes, I'm okay with light industrial. So
I actually think that needs to be
explored in detail before it gets sort
of the heavy sledgehammer of no
industrial.
>> Sure. I agree.
>> So what is the land
>> center district?
>> I'm sorry.
>> Center district and there are overlays I
was looking at right now. I don't feel
» I don't know if this is included in the
one-story commercial like strip mall,
but that just that there would be no
parking lots, you know, that there would
be storefronts or or buildings directly
on the sidewalk to make it safer for
pedestrians and also snap houses if we
do have single family homes, but they're
not like garage for extra square
footage. Uh uh
that yeah that pedestrian space is
centered on on sidewalks.
I don't know what the fancy
architectural term
>> now houses. Yeah, they're the ones you
it's in those McMansion and they have
like the garage
here houses there sometimes. It's pretty
hard to zone against a snout house. I
mean, you could I shouldn't say that you
can zone against them, but that's how
you do it. You structure your zoning
codes and not allow a garage, for
example, in your front yard. And there
are ways of doing it also in terms of
the proportions of a property
will demand that the garage gets sent to
the rear. But that's a really important
thing to me because one of the best ways
of dealing with that is designing blocks
with the alleys. That's how you get the
garage in the back in an urban
environment.
>> And that's exactly how
got to point in the right direction. All
of those blocks work. That's how those
blocks would have worked. That is how
those blocks do work. They all have
alleys.
All of them.
>> But uh are
>> now the city by the way isn't that happy
with alleys
>> and we're what we are doing in vision
and goals then do we say we want
pedestrian
centered design
rather than trying to make the the codes
or are we doing
Right.
» I think it depends on what you're
asking. If it's you're asking something
that would be perhaps illegal, then then
it would have to be as as uh he said
that would have to be changed in the
zoning ordinance.
>> But the developer is going to read this
section and go, "Okay, they don't want
all these things.
I'm going to come with a different
solution." They're not going to come
with those solutions.
make make sure that they're not going to
look for loopholes. That's where I I
feel like code and I mean we're going to
protected right
>> just so that's straightforward. That's
where okay we could do the code but then
>> to be to drive it home because we want
five you know friendly pedestrian
» you define some other version of the
house. um you know explicit
» and there must be kind of like some way
to do this because like I know down in
like field sorry it's not hipsy but like
they're demanding more greenways and
bike lanes with all their developments.
So they're doing something to ask for
that like Dallas with your concept of
the complete streets and the desire for
walkability. It's like I would really
hope that any development puts
sidewalks, a bike lane, and treeine
streets just for, you know what I mean?
But I don't know, maybe that's already
redundant to what you guys really.
>> No, I mean, I think that that's, you
know, Jeremy put this in here, right?
Like from AKT and so I think that like
it's valuable to say the things we don't
want to see, but I think it's just as
valuable to say the things that we do
want to see, right? Like that's it's
just two ways of looking at at the
world, right? And so I think that saying
we want complete streets, things like
that is is valuable in in in explaining
what we want for a development
for sure.
>> Uh I agree with not wanting all of those
things except for detached single family
housing. I could probably be swayed, but
you just mean an independent house,
right?
>> Mhm. Yes. I I suppose
I could be swayed. Yeah. Like Dorsy
estate has single family houses and it's
at a density level that I think is
>> pretty good for being single family.
>> I just like that it feels more natural
I think to have different different
types like you said different
construction diversity and construction
use or something. I don't know if that's
>> but yeah saying like little house next
to an apartment building next to a store
is nice
of core organic you know how to use a
grow
again attracts different economic levels
and then we bring those together
and like the idea of it being a mixture
again I I I don't know if anyone's
familiar with a rental station in
Portland this it was this just complete
development that was done all in one
piece and made Yeah, like it is called.
So, there are you little town houses or
single family homes. There are um uh
condos and it's all along the the train
line. Uh so, it's like, you know, 10
minutes instead of downtown Portland. Um
and then they have like the equivalent
of time here, like a little the grocery
store, but it's like
and there's apartments above I think
that kind of thing. And then there's the
meeting space in the middle. It's all
very walkable and bikable and it was
literally designed like all in one
chunk, right? But it looks like you like
the walking which is one thing I think I
love about Ipsy, right? You see these
huge mansions but then there'll be a
little little piece of home and then
there'll be a part. I love all of that
mix together.
So you said you had more than one
or that was only things you had.
» I I those were the things that I didn't
want. I had goals for the city. I How
are we recording everything that's being
said right now? Are you like
>> I'm writing minutes, but I'm also
recording the meeting. So, I'll go back
and listen to the the meeting as well to make sure I didn't miss things
because I'm also doing other things.
» Yeah,
>> you you you
gestured.
>> I I was reading something here. I was
trying to look up the development that
Diana was talking about and I misspelled
it. So, I'm like,
>> it's a weird name. O R E N The O.
We have about 15 minutes and we have two
more things to get through.
>> Actually trying to email them about I
don't know maybe somebody else.
>> Oh yeah.
>> Two more things.
>> We got one more scheduled meeting that's
scheduled. Right.
>> We have an August meeting so we can also
talk about dates then if we want to put
it off. own
the next meeting so we can focus on
the story about our last 15 minutes
here. Anybody disagree? I mean,
>> show me show me a hand or show the hand.
>> Talk about future mayor, the next
still talk about the Michigan travel
stuff,
>> right?
Can I share my goals though real quick
first?
>> I ask you a man and a dog.
» My my goal is again under bullet eight.
Create a third high density walkable
district and walking distance to
downtown and depot town. Create a
straight shot pedestrian connection from
Waterworks Park to River Street.
Initiate development that snowballs the
future development of the site. Balance
community benefits with taxable
development. Develop in a historically
relevant manner. And increase available
housing
x number affordable question mark.
» Well, and maybe it's better than that,
right? Like I I the X I'm just thinking
like
>> I don't know if we know that number,
>> right? Yeah,
>> like I think it is that number because I
think that
>> well I don't know if we do. I guess
that's my point is do we want a number
in a concept, right? Like I think that
like the that will like that's literally
the devil in the details that
>> maybe it's a percentage. Yeah,
>> speaking I was worried but you know in
terms of how people get along and it's
totally diverse, you know, I would want
there to be a large percentage of
affordable housing. I'm not really 100%
sure what that would be and maybe I
could do research like what did they do
like an island that feels
>> sure
>> like everybody's is it 10% is it 20 I
don't know
>> I just wonder if that's something that
we would negotiate further into the as
they start to pencil out a a concept
right as we get something where this
isn't that quite that stage yet that's
the one thought I'm think that I have
advocate I got you if I was advocating
for the developer I'll be like hey let
me give y'all awesome ideas so that we
can bounce with too. So like he that's
why I think the variable was the X,
right?
>> Yeah. Just we should include affordable
housing.
>> Yes. But that it should be there for
sure.
>> So the last Thank you. Uh the last time
we had a developer uh engaged um
a lot of these things came up and were
included in that. So if you look at that
and and how that plan looked, you can
see what some of that stuff looks like.
But it also became a tripping point in
the conversation with the developer
because when it came time for uh
the discussion of what percentage should
be affordable housing uh you know there
were numbers that were presented and the
developer I'm not saying that all
developers would do this because this
particular developer was not
particularly responsive to what we're
talking there were on certain level but
the head guy was just kind of dismissive
of a lot of things and when we hit 20%
he's like economically unfeasible we
can't do it end of story and and we're
like and that fell apart for other
reasons but just just so you know there
were they're defining what we want
defining what our fallback point is is a
good way to look at that because
>> you know those are you know Ann Arbor
has you know certain certain number that
hasn't happen in every development,
those kinds of things. So, it's doable,
but um you know, have some numbers that
you're that you're targeting and what
you're willing to accept.
>> We've been down this road,
>> right?
>> But
sometimes the number isn't an absolute
number. It's a percentage of the
project,
>> right?
>> Sure. And so
if you were to say we want pick a number
20 affordable housing units and they're
only building 30 units that's one thing
but if it's 20 units and they're
building 200 units that's another thing.
So the percentages matter and this is
why
Joe's presentation is based on $150
million investment where he started out
by saying it could be $450 million
and that's true
>> and we could have a developer who wants
to do housing and another developer
who's going to do commercial and right
like and then and then that's put like
putting that percentage in there or
somebody may I've actually spoken with a
developer recently who's talking about
doing scen senior housing, right? And so
like if they're doing senior housing and
it's but maybe it's I'm not saying it's
unaffordable, but maybe it's not in the
affordable
category or it's different. I don't know
if if it's a different benefit of
something that we do need, then how do
we weigh, right? Like I I just don't
have a concept of how we would weigh
that versus
>> that that brings up something that um
hasn't been brought up before.
something I'm sensitive to that I want
to share is there's a concept of housing
which we have used liberally
um and then you get into developers who
specialize and they'll talk about senior
housing or student housing or other
kinds of housing and I have been
involved in construction for a long time
and I say okay it's senior housing and I
live there, too. Can you live there,
too? Why not? Of course, you could live
there, too. You can physically use those
spaces, but they're gearing it toward
market. And they might do make subtle
changes. And those subtle changes,
there's there's a real common one in Ann
Arbor because of the university. It's a
basically it's a living unit with six
bedrooms and they're designed in such a
way that the bedrooms have a certain
autonomy that you can live in that
bedroom and not or inter you can
interact or not interact with the other
six bedrooms and therefore you can
basically live in a one-bedroom
apartment with a shared kitchen living
space independently of your other five
roommates.
They're geared for that. That's student
housing. It makes no sense to a family
of five children to live in an apartment
necessarily like that. They may not want
to buy it and it's economically not in
that market either. So, we also have to
be careful of falling into those little
traps of the kind of housing. I would
like to argue that we want housing, no
strings attached. We want it to be
structured such that many different
kinds of people can live there and you
don't have to have a label on your
forehead
to be there.
>> Who's going to get a tattoo?
>> Unless you've done
>> all right.
>> Senior and I turned 65
minutes.
>> We got six minutes. Um are we we all are
in agreeance to putting um item C into
>> Yeah, we are
>> next.
>> Yep.
Thank you.
>> Can I ask a question if this is this
might not be a good idea? Fully preface
that, but like a lot of these that I
feel like we're talking about are are
definitely could be described and
detailed in words, but could like we as
a very diverse like committee provide
some images of what is Ipsy? What and I leave that very open of what is Ipsy?
If your love of Ipsy is the materiality
of Depot Town or if your love of Ipsy is
the kids playing around Cross whatever
but like is that Katie is that just off
the mark? Is that almost like two
community? I was like I feel like
there's if the developer isn't in here
can we provide maybe this is something
we could do as like kind of like a
committee is provide some images of our
community that we feel like represent us
and draw. No, no pictures.
» I'm saying like
>> Yes, we're gonna make you draw the the
cartoon strip.
» Just do your values next time. Just like nothing other than an aerial view
of Water Street. There's no images. And
maybe I'm just that person who likes
pictures, but I was like, could could we
like suggest some picture edits of like
what like Ipsy looks like in here, like
some added images, or is that just not
is that kind of privilege?
>> Is your concern that potential
developers won't have a feel for the
community?
>> I guess so. Although maybe they're all
local. But I was like, if you you're
really missing a lot of like the
diversity that we talk about in
construction and existing community when
it's it's just words, right? So I was
like, what if we all brought in like one
picture and this could be incorporated
into it and kind of prefaced as the
pictures were compiled and shared as
like images of Ipsy for you to
understand our community or something,
you know? Is that something if if people
don't like the idea? No problem.
>> Bring more warmth to this kind of stuff.
I I just think that boards are only
going to take the option of diversity in
housing, diversity or complete streets.
Like if we have local examples where
they seem to be working, would that be
useful to share it? It might not be.
Maybe developer only wants to read.
That's perfectly perfectly accept. No
pictures less like current.
>> What What if it were example
development projects that
are interesting to you? Oro, I'm not
sure how you say it.
>> Yeah. station.
>> A quick look. It's basically a very
interesting thing. A gentleman who came
to I think our first meeting talked
about um I marked it but I don't
remember the name of it. A development
in the Rochester area um that is also
very interesting along the water. So it
has that connection. Um uh I as an
architect I will tell you that when my
clients bring me examples of things that
they appreciate it helps me a lot
>> right
>> it it it need not be consistent from my
perspective it need not you know but but
it starts to say this feels
like what we we are thinking what I mean
and and ask yourselves what does
Michigan a what do you what would you
like Michigan Avenue to feel like?
What do you want it to look like?
Because I mean, it came up earlier.
Somebody started talking about um that
the the Michigan Avenue being a
racetrack. Officially, Michigan Avenue
isn't a part of Water Street. But I
always talk about the fact that Water
Street's way bigger than this 38 acres.
It's dramatically bigger. It's It
includes South Kiron Street. It includes
across Michigan and up into the park.
includes way east of it because that's
what it will influence.
>> Well, I actually would propose we would
do both. I would say you could add
images of the community that we think
kind of describe our community into this
and then a list of in inspirational
projects that we've looked at or
whatever
>> that are here or not here.
>> Yeah. Here or not here. I I think that
would be great. I think that's a great, you know,
>> I'm good with it. Send them over.
>> I've got one in that one.
>> Yeah. I don't know what the pictures
are, but they'll be like all come with
like one picture and just see like if
they can be we give them to Katie.
>> Katie makes sense of it. Sounds good.
>> I I love those kinds of projects. Those
are my favorite projects.
» Sign one. Thank you.
>> Yeah. Okay.
So this next conversation will take more
than one minute. So the question is are
we okay with extending a bit or are do
we want to
>> just extend? We got to extend again.
>> Yeah,
>> it's just to discuss the meeting.
>> No, it's not
>> the tribal.
» What's up?
>> How many minutes?
>> Oh yeah,
>> that's y'all not me.
sitting 9:15
>> presenting it.
>> Um, so it's a it's a discussion, but I
have I have some things to report out.
Um, we have we have a couple of
developments on this topic. So,
>> can we um vote on 9:30 with the first
five minutes doing directly to listening
>> and we're going to need the last five
minutes to decide who the chair is next
time.
>> Okay.
>> No, we got that Diane.
>> Oh, wait. But we need a vice chair.
>> Yeah. Yeah. All right.
>> By the vice chair. Sorry. That's what we
always need that time for still.
>> All right.
>> Go.
>> Um, great. So, Carrie and I have um been
working with Shipo. We got a list. We
had it was 20 20 24 tribes that um that
are usually that are approached for
things like this. And so, we sent both
letters and emails to all of them um all
of the tribal contacts there. and we
heard back from one and he said that he
was hoping to come tonight but was not
sure if he would be able to. So I sent
him the link for both this meeting as
well as the August meeting. I also sent
him all of our agendas and minutes that
we've had for the meetings as well as
the website um the water street website
so that he has all the context of of
things that we've discussed and that
sort of thing. I also offered that if he
couldn't make either of these meetings
if he wanted to meet outside of one of
the meetings I'd be happy to to jump on
a call with him as well. So, um, he
didn't he didn't say that he wanted to
do that. Um, I can keep you guys in the
loop on whether or not that happens. Um,
I know that there was some conversations
in email with another per somebody with
the Nado Waspi tribe. And so, I want to
I will after this meeting reach out
specifically to her because I want to
make sure that there's not any
miscommunication because there was other
commun there was other folks
communicating and I want to make sure
that she gets feels feels directly
communicated with from this committee.
um to to interface if if she would like
to. So, um that's sort of my update.
Last night, council passed a resolution.
I don't know if anybody from council
wants to speak on that, the mayor.
>> Um fundamentally, the resolution was
just to name that we want to make sure
that there's a process for engaging um
indigenous people and tribal, you know,
nations. um even outside of specific
projects that generally doesn't know the
connection to the community and we want
those relationships to be meaningful. Um
and so fundamentally what we decided
that we put in legislation that is
something that we are committed to doing
and that staff will be supporting in
doing that. So kind of what is already
doing for this body and reaching out
that will be ongoing work that staff and
council will be doing as well as
including community members when that
happens. And so I think that like it's
two things going because you guys
directed me to do it and so I did it and
then also we're doing this other large
sort of larger concept and for me that
just felt um authentic from the who we
are in Ipsilani and that like we have
never done that as a like hey we'd like
to build a relationship and have a
larger conversation about like what
would be honoring to you guys. Of
course, there's all the regulatory
things that we have to do and like when
we get uh federal funds, we have to do it and we have to notify
and like things like that. And of
course, we'll continue to do those, but
like to be more intentional, I feel like
outside of like this one project like
Peninsula Dam or this one project like
Water Street, like to just be more
intentional about it. Um
there was something else I wanted to say
about that. I don't remember what it
was.
>> Is there anything else? Yeah, please do.
Um so part of the discussion last year
was was there was a standalone general
sense that that this needs to happen.
Part of that was spurred on because of
the conversation in here in here which
said specifically that we're going to do
that. And so the question of whether
that uh that resolution included
um water street or the dam um was a
topic of discussion. We we excluded
specific projects because that was a
statement of a value and intent that
besides all these things which we're
going to do anyway and that we've
already got specific language to this is
something on top of that. So it wasn't
specifically included in that resolution
all the individual um
projects that that are ongoing that we
have specific conversations about but
more of a general general sense.
>> I'd like to see it included though
because I don't think it's on top of it.
It's you know you're working on this
more general global
um process which is important but then
also we're in the middle of one right
but that should be included. So it
doesn't that this doesn't get swept away
and doesn't have all the um benefits
that you're you're building with with
the more global right you know what I
mean like whatever whatever process get
added in this global way from council I
would love to see that included in right
so that it because I feel like it's it's
just um uplifting the level of
intentionality right so as as you gain
information from either tribal nations
or ind individual individ indigenous
people and that gets incorporated that
we should uplift all of our projects. It
doesn't even have to be these two. So it
can be just so that
>> okay we didn't do it before so we didn't
have it but now we have it so I would
like to see it included you know then
as we learn as we engage I'm assume
going to grow or we're going to develop
>> well am I hearing you right are you are
you just clarifying to this council
right here that the pro proposal that
was proposed may did not include the two
previous ones that we have now which is
the dam and the water
It didn't include it didn't it doesn't
refer to a single project. It refers to
all of the projects.
>> Definitely inspired by this very
conversation that was created.
>> Yes,
>> for sure. And also, you know, like
another one that we haven't talked about
even is Prospect Park. doing some
sidewalks right now in Prospect Park and
because it is federal funds, it's CDBG
dollars and so we have to do um right
like so again there's times that
regulatory we have to do it and so but
we don't always bring those up because
you just have to do it right and like so
that it's not always a discussion. It's
not always something that comes to
council because it's just legally that's
what we have to do when we spend those
dollars on on that project. I guess the
other point I would add from from that
is the question of it wasn't meant to
exclude conversation. So folks have
reached out to to people already, right?
And so it doesn't say that only Katie
Carrick do that. Those are all great,
but I as a council member cannot
represent the city
in any
uh with any tribal government.
I've just done that. But the mayor is
the only person that can do that. So we
can still have those conversations, but
if it's official, then we have to go
through that. We we still develop
relationships. Everybody can do that.
That's that's not at all. But in terms
of what we can agree to and state on
behalf of the city as an entity, we're
very limited. So
the best thing is to have as many
relationship as possible, right? Um, so
everybody should be working on that and
doing those things. But but in terms of
that comes back staff and and the mayor,
right, to be official if you're going to
come to an agreement, something like
that, then it has to be all of council.
So we can have conversations and be
friendly and get to and and develop
those relationships, but we can't agree
to anything as individuals.
>> Not yet. Right. But I'm hoping that the
process is because I
I'm assuming right that the point is
what I would love to see in terms of
that what land back means what I think
it means of stewardship is it's not just
like liberal land right but that the
people who who were here before and have
this extensive knowledge through
indigenous science and history have a
voice in how the land is stewarded
and so we have that expertise is great
and and that honoring I think on a moral
level and all of that too that expertise
that was probably are sustainable also,
right? So, if we have that process, I
mean, of course, we're going to have
relationships and all of that as
individuals, but that if it's written
so that yeah, Ipsy officially would work
as a city always engaging people, you
know, whenever they want and they would
choose and and they would help us write
that process so that that gets included
in all in all
like for anything that might affect them
because that's going to make everything
sustainable.
>> Yep.
>> I have two questions.
>> Okay.
>> One is um who responded? What tribe was
that? And then the other one is of there
are 24 um tribes to reach out to and
that's a lot and I'm so sorry. But I
would also I'm sure you have a process
and a plan, but you know cuz tribal
governments are people and they're
always rolling off to. So if there's
some plan for like, okay, every year we
just email all 24 people. Yeah.
>> So that's one thing that we are having
conversations at the staff level now is
now that the resolution is passed, what
is the most intentional way of doing
that and like what's the best way to do
that? And I I don't have the answer for
you today because it was just passed
last night at midnight and so we haven't
gotten there yet. Um
>> but do you want to come up to the
microphone though?
>> Sure.
>> Um the other thing I want to quick say
before while Carrie's making her way to
the the microphone is that there's been
some discussion about
whether or why not why hadn't we done
this yet or why hadn't it gotten
accomplished yet? And I want to make it
very clear that that's because there was
no federal funds that were being used
for excavation purposes. So that's like
when there's ground disturbances is when
it needs to happen. And so that that's
not happened with any federal funds thus
far. We've done an excavation project.
It was with state funds. It's not
required with state funds. And so um it
is with federal. And so that is the
clarification there that that's why it
hadn't happened yet. Um, and so that's
why we did it at the moment that we did
it.
>> Really quick, just answer your question
about like contacts should like even you
got a response like oh actually this is
outdated email,
>> right? Right. Yeah, it's a new person
that he's like trying to get
my account.
They update that database with their
contact information. So we pull from
that. That's what Chipo um state
historic Federation office suggested.
They also had like their but they're
like also go there and make sure you
list
>> um because like the not of study um of
weren't on that list but we know that
they're engaging with the city so we
added
>> yeah we're gonna
but um
what
>> so the other question was who it was and
it was the Sagena Chippoa Indian tribe
of Michigan um their preservation
officer uh Gage Gage Cole I can't read
the cursive coowwell
I would just like to say me being a you
know huge leaison advocate in the
community um there's been times that
there have been events one block away in
our unhoused community was there and
there was free food offer good free food
offer and some people just don't go
because they totally disagree with
what's going on at the event. So I just
want to know um
>> when you talk about 24 people and then
one person with they cannot even want to
get it get down. That's what I'm saying.
They cannot even like that involved.
>> Yeah. They might want to do nothing.
They might not want to holl at y'all
about nothing. Might not want to talk.
They might want to sue soon trying to do
something without I don't know.
>> I I think a part of it is uh it's not
necessarily about I mean folks yes have
the right to decide if they want to
engage with us or not, but it's about
our willingness and the intentionality
of reaching out right and make sure that
we have as many voices as possible, as
many folks as possible to be able to
help steward like the work.
>> On the back end of that, I was about to
say, what tactics are we going to use
moving forward to excite that may feel
like I'm trying to give y'all actual
examples from Pipsy right here with
people who really may need a meal but
may not want to come?
» No, it did.
>> Well, are you sorry?
>> Yeah. Um, well, I work for the state. We
do this all the time. So, you reach out
to the um the roll call and the roll
call responds if they choose to or if
they choose to not cuz they're very
prideful people. So, you reach out to
the roll call and you just make that
happen. You know what I mean? We are
mandated by our policies to do it
automatic
when we find out it's any kind of
relationship of Native American
heritage. Well, and also Carrie and I
are consulting if you want to name the
person that's at Michigan State that
you've been communicating with.
>> Well, or just there's a professor there
>> archaeologists um service Evans. She's
actually but Scotty used to be in my
position with the city who's a
management planner who's great. Um yeah
so I mean I kind of Scott my point
person he understands it and everything
but um the archaeologists have like they
provided a lot of information um and
they've been really really helpful with
um like how to go about this but there
are also other professionals um who do
the work of tribal consultation not just
the required section 106 but actually
like working with at a community level
like what is that part and I'll just
share
Um, one thing I keep like thinking of
this conversation is so Heather Howard
who is a she's a professor of
anthropology at SU but she's also
research faculty at the University of
Toronto and when we reached out to her
we're like what does this process look
like to kind of go beyond section 106
and she was like can't emphasize enough
relationship like you have to be
consistent. She was like, she gave some
examples of projects. Um like uh there's
an interactive um like history project
with Toronto. It's called First Story
Toronto and she's like that took 10
years together like building the trust.
So I think that like that's what I
understand the intent of this resolution
piece like we want to move beyond
section 106 and like it will probably
like to your point too. Yes. It can be a
little disappointing to like work on
something so much and then you get one
spot. But I think like being consistent.
So like next, you know, like reach out
again.
>> And another idea Carrie and I had was
like maybe maybe Carrie or myself would
travel to go see them, right? Like
rather than expecting them to come to
Ipsy or them to email Ipsy, right? Like
there so there's options and I think
that there's vision that we have for
this. And I think that um
I am more excited about this than I
haven't been in a lot of things that
I've done. I think that it's um it's
good work and it's intentional work and
so I think that it's meaningful and so
I'm thankful to this committee for for
putting it top of mind and and pushing
it. So I think that it's been helpful. I
think that Carrie and I've had some very
dynamic conversations about it and been
able to consult with some really um cool
people who are doing really cool work
across the country right now um in the
space. And so I think it's been really
useful.
>> It's also like come up for so many like
signage projects. It's like
>> yes, this is so important, but like it's
not our history to
>> tell and also be it shouldn't just be
tacked on. It needs to be like this
should citywide there's so many
important parts of the city to
consulting thrives and like where where
are those places? You want to have
interpret interpretation or do you not
or like do you want to plan like
>> I feel like signage was always the
answer, right? like and when you when
you start to feel like you just keep
putting a sign up that doesn't feel
significant or or particularly valuable
and so I think that we were kind of
looking for that like what's the next
piece of this this conversation
>> but I went to a school in which you know
and one of their solutions back which
took them here
>> was to build a long house that belonged
to the
>> great long house
>> right yeah and so and I don't know what
equivalent to you know but in terms of
again asking them so how you want to use
the space and centering that version
» and projects are great because they give
the city opportunity to actually like
okay there's focus on this development
and there are funds potentially or
whatever like there's there resources
not for them u so like that this is
really exciting yeah
>> we're at a super exciting time where Um,
things can happen as a result of Sorry,
go ahead.
>> No, it's all right. I just I see you. We
need to end
>> bravo on the city for doing this. I get
y too.
>> Yep. You got to go. That's all right. We
appreciate you next co-chair.
>> Yeah, we need the next co-chair.
>> So, we got Diana as chair and then we
need somebody as their as um her vice
chair
>> who hasn't done it who might be
interested in doing it.
>> So, that's for September. Whatever we
do, I'll do it. the theoretical next
meeting. Okay. Thank you.
» We're good.
» We are the next meeting is August 20
something.
Um,
>> it's 26.
>> It is. It's 26.
>> Yes.
>> Is that the day after we like get off
schedule?
» Sorry.
» I was there with you. I know. Oh, I
know. I'm just kidding.
>> Today I felt like I
» was listening to an arts kids meeting in
my office and I shut both doors and I
was sitting there and I was like,
>> I was off screen. It was not easy.
>> I know.
>> All right. Thanks. Appreciate you.
>> The Republicans were messing with that
in the budget. Did
>> that go through?
>> Did they Did they uh
>> They did get some of the money away.
Yeah.
>> Yeah. But it was funds that were so it
was the problem was the funds were the
2025
funds that had been unspent and it was
unspent because they hadn't got but it
was because they hadn't got contracts
for so long they couldn't spend it
quickly enough and so
>> but yes some of them did
>> speakers
got money.
>> Yeah. and absolutely don't