1
01:00:02,494 --> 01:00:06,232
have a department here which is, uh, 25% of its total budget

2
01:00:06,732 --> 01:00:10,186
is cost to the levy. Could it be better? Maybe so. But again,

3
01:00:10,235 --> 01:00:13,578
I just wanted to reiterate that we are making headway in some

4
01:00:13,643 --> 01:00:15,844
areas. And secondly,

5
01:00:17,571 --> 01:00:20,766
I kind of agree with Councilor Buro. It's tough to

6
01:00:20,798 --> 01:00:24,236
keep robbing from reserves. That's why we had low budgets. I was

7
01:00:24,268 --> 01:00:27,058
part of the budget process back when COVID was on,

8
01:00:27,719 --> 01:00:31,024
and to keep the budget low,

9
01:00:31,363 --> 01:00:34,378
we robbed from reserves. We kept it low,

10
01:00:34,763 --> 01:00:38,311
and then by eliminating a lot out of the budget,

11
01:00:38,729 --> 01:00:41,282
as soon as COVID was over, we had to put that all back in the

12
01:00:41,782 --> 01:00:45,119
budget. So if we had maintained a 3% or 2%

13
01:00:45,778 --> 01:00:49,198
levy increase through those years, we may not be looking at what we're looking

14
01:00:49,230 --> 01:00:53,260
at today. But those were decisions of the past. But decisions

15
01:00:53,308 --> 01:00:56,696
of the future will come when we have infill. You know,

16
01:00:56,712 --> 01:01:00,715
we've got a new development team. So we're looking at development.

17
01:01:01,410 --> 01:01:04,354
Every time there's infill into our community,

18
01:01:05,190 --> 01:01:08,508
which sometimes is, uh, answered by

19
01:01:09,008 --> 01:01:12,841
nimbyism where they don't want it, but the public has to realize that every

20
01:01:12,857 --> 01:01:17,041
time we add a development which doesn't create more roads,

21
01:01:18,303 --> 01:01:21,911
uh, which doesn't need new sewer mains, which doesn't need new water

22
01:01:22,411 --> 01:01:25,852
mains, that becomes a, a definite bonus

23
01:01:25,966 --> 01:01:29,837
to the community as far as tax revenue. So if we add 100 units

24
01:01:30,161 --> 01:01:33,491
and we don't have to add any serious infrastructure, so 100

25
01:01:33,991 --> 01:01:38,381
units at averaged 3 or 4,000, you were talking $300,000 or $400,000.

26
01:01:39,123 --> 01:01:42,400
So I just wanted to bring those points forward, even though we are using reserves

27
01:01:42,432 --> 01:01:46,068
now. Hopefully in future with the development and infills that we

28
01:01:46,568 --> 01:01:48,427
can bring those reserves back up. Thank you.

29
01:01:48,750 --> 01:01:52,383
Okay. Just, just so we're moving forward,

30
01:01:52,464 --> 01:01:55,813
I appreciate the statements, Councillor Darling, but we are looking for questions of the presenter

31
01:01:56,313 --> 01:02:00,322
at this time. Councillor Maton, go ahead. Thank you for your report, and I look

32
01:02:00,822 --> 01:02:03,946
forward to community engagement and perhaps presentation to

33
01:02:04,446 --> 01:02:09,910
council, as alluded to earlier. My question to you is,

34
01:02:10,023 --> 01:02:11,767
I just— a point of clarity.

35
01:02:13,587 --> 01:02:17,951
If you are retained as a consultant

36
01:02:18,451 --> 01:02:20,341
Could you please explain the disclaimer at the end of your report?

37
01:02:27,920 --> 01:02:31,292
I wish I brought the report with me. Okay, so I, I'll read. It says,

38
01:02:31,469 --> 01:02:35,051
um, uh, David Dexter Consultant and the Town of Cobourg

39
01:02:35,551 --> 01:02:39,739
are not responsible for any loss or damage which might occur as a reliance

40
01:02:40,435 --> 01:02:42,135
or use of the contents in this report.

41
01:02:44,329 --> 01:02:47,712
I'm not used to seeing a consultant put that kind of disclaimer,

42
01:02:47,728 --> 01:02:51,126
so I'm just wondering if you could— perhaps it's just my unfamiliarity.

43
01:02:51,335 --> 01:02:54,284
I'll start this off, Mr. Dexter, and then I'll let you answer afterwards.

44
01:02:54,669 --> 01:02:58,212
Um, then I stand, and I appreciate that. I'm going to partially

45
01:02:58,712 --> 01:03:01,386
answer that and then let Mr. Dexter answer the rest of that, because remember,

46
01:03:01,402 --> 01:03:04,704
I'm the one who retained Mr. Dexter, so perhaps I should

47
01:03:05,204 --> 01:03:08,278
start and then Mr. Dexter can finish. Um, when Mr. Dexter was

48
01:03:08,311 --> 01:03:11,965
retained, he was not retained as a professional accountant. He was retained as a member

49
01:03:11,981 --> 01:03:15,701
of the public in Cobourg who to in the past have

50
01:03:16,201 --> 01:03:19,454
a professional accounting background. He was not retained as a chartered accountant,

51
01:03:19,774 --> 01:03:23,703
and there, for that reason, I'm just letting you know that may

52
01:03:24,024 --> 01:03:27,456
take part of that, because when Mr. Dexter and I were beginning the conversations about

53
01:03:27,956 --> 01:03:31,000
this, we very clearly— I wanted someone who is a

54
01:03:31,500 --> 01:03:35,330
member of the public of Cobourg, who's a ratepayer of Cobourg, to lead that,

55
01:03:35,394 --> 01:03:38,601
and I wanted someone who had a professional background of

56
01:03:38,682 --> 01:03:41,624
more than 15 years. But that said, Mr.

57
01:03:41,672 --> 01:03:44,981
Dexter's retired, so I can let him explain why he put that there. But I

58
01:03:45,481 --> 01:03:47,934
just wanted to be very clear that when I hired Mr. Dexter, I wasn't hiring

59
01:03:48,047 --> 01:03:51,680
a chartered accountant. I was hiring a member of the public in

60
01:03:51,777 --> 01:03:54,643
Cobourg who happened to also have professional experience.

61
01:03:55,070 --> 01:04:00,944
Thank you.

62
01:04:01,397 --> 01:04:06,216
By all means, sir. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I mean,

63
01:04:06,282 --> 01:04:08,904
what the mayor describes is correct, right? I'm not a consultant by trade.

64
01:04:09,809 --> 01:04:13,921
I'm a resident with 30 years experience in the industry on

65
01:04:13,953 --> 01:04:17,433
the municipal finance side, so I realized there needed to be

66
01:04:17,933 --> 01:04:19,862
some disclaimer at the end. I looked at some of the examples of some of

67
01:04:20,362 --> 01:04:25,222
the reports, the financial reports that the town had done, be it KPMG

68
01:04:25,368 --> 01:04:29,311
or Watson Associates, and I realized I needed to identify the

69
01:04:29,811 --> 01:04:32,665
fact that I wrote the report and that people that are on the task force

70
01:04:33,182 --> 01:04:37,154
are not accountable, and that it's town report and that

71
01:04:38,487 --> 01:04:42,645
you don't know. I mean, indemnification is you don't know the situation

72
01:04:43,143 --> 01:04:46,900
of risk or something that could be claimed

73
01:04:46,932 --> 01:04:50,785
back at the town or something like that, right? And you need to make statements

74
01:04:51,285 --> 01:04:55,071
like that, like in a contract or something that you may not know, a situation

75
01:04:55,120 --> 01:04:58,700
where something could be used and someone said, well, I read this and

76
01:04:59,053 --> 01:05:02,921
I did this in my life, and because that you don't

77
01:05:03,230 --> 01:05:05,471
know these things, so you have to make a disclaimer of some sort.

78
01:05:07,823 --> 01:05:11,445
Right. Well, Miss Councillor Barber. Yeah, just very briefly, I wanted

79
01:05:11,945 --> 01:05:15,213
to, um, come back to something you said and, and backed up

80
01:05:15,229 --> 01:05:19,183
basically, uh, through, uh, what, uh, Councillor Darling also mentioned.

81
01:05:19,733 --> 01:05:23,729
Um, some of the things that this

82
01:05:23,875 --> 01:05:27,602
council has done in the last 2 or 3 years are against—

83
01:05:27,684 --> 01:05:31,910
and I think it was recognized by your group

84
01:05:32,410 --> 01:05:36,026
they are starting to show positive effects and things towards some of the finances,

85
01:05:36,624 --> 01:05:40,455
specifically our

86
01:05:42,201 --> 01:05:45,578
front desk idea, et cetera, et cetera. And I just wonder

87
01:05:46,078 --> 01:05:48,027
if you might just enlarge on that just a little bit. Some of the things

88
01:05:48,333 --> 01:05:51,941
that we've decided on over the last couple of years now are beginning to actually

89
01:05:51,958 --> 01:05:55,562
start to show positive effects on the

90
01:05:56,062 --> 01:05:59,147
budget. Budget. Thank you. Okay,

91
01:05:59,195 --> 01:06:02,334
Mr. Dexter, I'm going to ask a very brief question, if I may. Or do

92
01:06:02,834 --> 01:06:03,928
you want to take that one? By all means.

93
01:06:06,892 --> 01:06:10,278
I mean, we, we stuck pretty much to the financial framework

94
01:06:10,778 --> 01:06:14,211
and the financial concerns, so we never got into some of the deeper elements of

95
01:06:14,711 --> 01:06:18,021
the service. I, you know, the front desk and the, and the,

96
01:06:18,345 --> 01:06:21,575
and the people at the front of the building, I think that's excellent.

97
01:06:22,077 --> 01:06:25,672
Right? And we know— I've heard no complaints about that. I mean, for one

98
01:06:25,720 --> 01:06:27,187
thing, on a pure financial basis,

99
01:06:29,520 --> 01:06:33,148
funding for long-term capital sustainability is a

100
01:06:33,648 --> 01:06:36,293
multi-financial thing, right? Long-term,

101
01:06:36,809 --> 01:06:40,048
long-term assets, that's a wise thing to use.

102
01:06:40,112 --> 01:06:42,707
And now there's a debt policy in place that the treasurer brought forward.

103
01:06:44,312 --> 01:06:47,591
One thing that the town also brought approved is an

104
01:06:47,640 --> 01:06:52,252
infrastructure levy. I know it's a tax, and I complain mentioned

105
01:06:52,701 --> 01:06:56,165
earlier that it was one of the burdens that they put on the taxpayer,

106
01:06:56,325 --> 01:07:00,479
but it's on top of everything else. On its own, with normal

107
01:07:00,979 --> 01:07:04,616
tax rate increases, it's a good thing to do because the tax burden—

108
01:07:04,969 --> 01:07:08,256
the taxpayer has to be a part of the long-term sustainability of the assets

109
01:07:08,756 --> 01:07:11,945
that— and the services they provide. So that was new, and it

110
01:07:12,445 --> 01:07:15,762
was done in what, 2024, I believe? I believe that was the budget year.

111
01:07:16,034 --> 01:07:19,312
So that was smart as well, right? A stormwater rate's wise too,

112
01:07:19,970 --> 01:07:22,525
right? Because it provides for the replacement of assets.

113
01:07:23,024 --> 01:07:26,741
How it went about and some of the complications in between would've been nice

114
01:07:27,241 --> 01:07:30,897
to avoid, but the end outcome and the rationale

115
01:07:30,962 --> 01:07:34,665
of having a stormwater charge makes sense, right?

116
01:07:34,908 --> 01:07:38,949
Well, certainly redundant to say, but the

117
01:07:39,014 --> 01:07:42,489
tax levy pays for reserves. I mean, reserves are built

118
01:07:42,989 --> 01:07:45,275
out of the tax levy and a lot of people don't think that through,

119
01:07:45,347 --> 01:07:47,695
I think. Thank you.

120
01:07:48,179 --> 01:07:51,633
Simple question, Mr. Dexter, if I may. Has anyone on council approached

121
01:07:52,133 --> 01:07:53,408
you to do a presentation for them?

122
01:07:56,510 --> 01:08:00,068
Uh, to you, Mr. Mayor, this would be the first. Okay. Um, has anyone

123
01:08:00,165 --> 01:08:03,821
on council reached out directly to you to have a one-on-one count or meeting about

124
01:08:03,886 --> 01:08:07,053
the report? Uh, to you,

125
01:08:07,117 --> 01:08:10,358
Mr. Mayor, no. Okay. Um, thank you, Mr. Dexter. I appreciate it.

126
01:08:10,423 --> 01:08:13,813
No further questions. Um, just to the council, No further

127
01:08:14,313 --> 01:08:16,635
questions. Thank you, Mr. Dexter. Appreciate it. We're going to move on to Mr.

128
01:08:16,699 --> 01:08:20,097
Bussan. The reason I asked those questions, Council, is, uh, as you're all aware,

129
01:08:20,706 --> 01:08:23,752
a meeting could have been called at any time by 4 members of this Council

130
01:08:24,252 --> 01:08:27,936
to go over the budget task force. Similarly, any one member of

131
01:08:27,984 --> 01:08:31,366
Council could have easily reached out to Mr. Dexter and gone over that task force

132
01:08:31,866 --> 01:08:35,294
one-on-one with him. I say that because both the Deputy Mayor and Councillor Buro

133
01:08:35,310 --> 01:08:38,852
have suggested that they would have liked to have a meeting before this

134
01:08:39,045 --> 01:08:41,866
meeting, and I just want to make sure the public knows that every member of

135
01:08:42,366 --> 01:08:46,492
this Council is free to conduct themselves as an independent island as

136
01:08:46,524 --> 01:08:49,941
they see fit, and that as an independent island, they are

137
01:08:49,989 --> 01:08:53,504
responsible for their sort of retention,

138
01:08:53,618 --> 01:08:57,352
knowledge, and building a basis. So again, just like

139
01:08:57,416 --> 01:09:00,860
this meeting was called by 4 members of council, anytime 4

140
01:09:00,908 --> 01:09:04,378
members of council could have gotten together and had a meeting called to review the

141
01:09:04,878 --> 01:09:07,937
Strong Mayor Task Force. Councilor Matan, I see your hand. Yes,

142
01:09:09,435 --> 01:09:12,951
I would actually have to comment that we rely on your leadership, Mr. Mayor.

143
01:09:13,099 --> 01:09:14,714
So I think we rely— council, and I'm speaking for myself,

144
01:09:17,491 --> 01:09:21,289
is that your leadership in ensuring that council has the

145
01:09:21,789 --> 01:09:25,378
appropriate information. And I would like everybody to know that I had asked if

146
01:09:25,491 --> 01:09:29,498
I could be an observer at these budget task force meetings.

147
01:09:30,157 --> 01:09:33,519
And I was at first, it was agreed to, and then I was denied.

148
01:09:34,020 --> 01:09:37,586
There was no public access to the task force meetings,

149
01:09:37,650 --> 01:09:41,345
including by members of council. So I just wanted that to be

150
01:09:41,425 --> 01:09:45,664
out there. That's great to cover. And it was a first-time process, But definitely,

151
01:09:45,680 --> 01:09:49,576
Mr. Mayor, we look to your leadership with regards to all of council

152
01:09:50,076 --> 01:09:53,728
also. That's my, my, my view. Well, I hope so, because here we are discussing

153
01:09:53,760 --> 01:09:57,447
the mayor's budget. So let's hope we follow that leadership. But Councilor Mouton, on that

154
01:09:57,947 --> 01:10:01,278
point, let's— I think it's great you brought forward. You're right, I did agree to

155
01:10:01,778 --> 01:10:04,837
that, right, initially, because I was like, oh, of course, why wouldn't you? That was

156
01:10:04,885 --> 01:10:08,332
out of place for me because it wasn't actually my task force

157
01:10:08,832 --> 01:10:12,000
to run, to select, to choose, or to out line. So I agreed

158
01:10:12,500 --> 01:10:15,850
to you being a participatory, uh, mistakenly, because I didn't actually

159
01:10:15,914 --> 01:10:19,569
check with the people on the task force first. When I brought

160
01:10:20,069 --> 01:10:22,301
that idea to the members of the task force and leadership, it was them that

161
01:10:22,801 --> 01:10:26,608
asked for, uh, the privacy to have a conversation away from both myself and

162
01:10:26,737 --> 01:10:29,992
all political and staff members so that they could build that trust

163
01:10:30,040 --> 01:10:33,242
and relationship amongst themselves. Because from the,

164
01:10:34,989 --> 01:10:38,768
the luncheon I had at the end of that task force with the individuals

165
01:10:38,800 --> 01:10:41,829
to say thank you for all the hours and hours of work. I was,

166
01:10:42,021 --> 01:10:45,227
uh, incredibly impressed with the

167
01:10:45,727 --> 01:10:49,378
congeniality of some of these members who in the past I have seen not

168
01:10:49,878 --> 01:10:53,545
be very friendly to one another because of their very diverse political and

169
01:10:53,561 --> 01:10:56,718
financial views. And I think it served us well to

170
01:10:56,910 --> 01:11:00,629
leave them to their own in a sense, because, uh, what I think they

171
01:11:01,129 --> 01:11:03,546
needed was an ability to find a trust, just like this council has had to

172
01:11:03,578 --> 01:11:06,463
work over the last 3 years to find a way to trust work together.

173
01:11:06,943 --> 01:11:10,454
This was 10 unique individuals who had to come together and come up with

174
01:11:10,954 --> 01:11:13,676
some recommendations. So I just— I'm glad you brought the point up. That was my

175
01:11:14,176 --> 01:11:17,186
mistake. I said, of course you can participate. And it was actually at that point

176
01:11:17,686 --> 01:11:21,434
that I was corrected and said, well, Mayor, actually, this is a group that

177
01:11:21,934 --> 01:11:24,191
will decide. And that was the decision of the group. So thank you for that.

178
01:11:24,255 --> 01:11:27,782
And I appreciate that you do follow this leadership. But again, this council has

179
01:11:28,282 --> 01:11:31,084
a record of calling— I think we're up to like 9 or 10 special meetings.

180
01:11:31,453 --> 01:11:34,904
Anytime I make a strong— Mayor, you This council seems to call a special

181
01:11:35,404 --> 01:11:38,776
meeting. So while I do appreciate the point that you follow my leadership,

182
01:11:39,001 --> 01:11:42,053
I would suggest that you only seem to want to do that when meetings aren't

183
01:11:42,553 --> 01:11:46,327
called. But, you know, we'll leave it at that. Deputy Mayor. Thank you. Just a

184
01:11:46,391 --> 01:11:49,782
comment on that. And I definitely don't want to open the Pandora's box on that.

185
01:11:50,569 --> 01:11:54,280
Respect the fact that we're in an era of strong mayor legislation. I just

186
01:11:54,780 --> 01:11:58,538
think it's important to remind everyone that council can only have a conversation on a

187
01:11:59,038 --> 01:12:02,467
strong mayor directive by calling a meeting and in an open

188
01:12:02,967 --> 01:12:06,153
forum. And with respect to the task force, yes,

189
01:12:06,217 --> 01:12:09,343
absolutely. I, um, as the mayor,

190
01:12:09,359 --> 01:12:13,077
because this was funded by taxpayers' money and it was put out into

191
01:12:13,141 --> 01:12:16,940
the community with a lot of recommendations that have— could have

192
01:12:17,309 --> 01:12:21,187
significant impact, uh, to the taxpayer service

193
01:12:21,284 --> 01:12:24,986
level. Some of the task force recommendations I think are really strong. I think a

194
01:12:25,486 --> 01:12:29,089
lot of them require additional feasibility, and a lot of them require

195
01:12:29,457 --> 01:12:32,983
additional unpacking. Um, so if

196
01:12:33,483 --> 01:12:37,406
we talk about isolated islands, we put a document out into the

197
01:12:37,906 --> 01:12:42,181
community of Cobourg and it creates a desert because it's sitting

198
01:12:42,293 --> 01:12:45,818
isolating. And to Councilor Mouton's point, I believe if I could say

199
01:12:46,318 --> 01:12:50,113
also the leadership, Mr. Mayor, at any time you could have created a special

200
01:12:50,161 --> 01:12:54,359
meeting of your entire team, which you talk about being a proud team leader

201
01:12:54,857 --> 01:12:59,102
and you could have presented the task force to us and

202
01:12:59,134 --> 01:13:02,912
the community as a whole with context from the strong leadership

203
01:13:02,976 --> 01:13:05,778
of Dexter and the community, Mr. Dexter and the community,

204
01:13:07,002 --> 01:13:10,367
rather than finding out about the task force information in

205
01:13:10,415 --> 01:13:13,955
a Facebook post followed up by an email. So it

206
01:13:14,455 --> 01:13:17,861
goes both ways. Council has to mobilize

207
01:13:17,894 --> 01:13:21,591
and petition a meeting where strong mayor's ethics especially,

208
01:13:21,607 --> 01:13:25,451
and I will stand by the fact that that the tax

209
01:13:25,951 --> 01:13:29,891
levy budget is a budget of the community. Uh, it's the Coburgs' budget.

210
01:13:30,404 --> 01:13:33,770
And so I get a little frustrated about hearing it's

211
01:13:33,835 --> 01:13:36,928
creating islands of isolation when in fact,

212
01:13:37,441 --> 01:13:41,433
um, this is why I brought forward the motion back in September when

213
01:13:41,529 --> 01:13:43,966
the strong mayor's timelines were published,

214
01:13:44,495 --> 01:13:48,246
had a more thorough timeline and release of information,

215
01:13:48,278 --> 01:13:52,029
and then follow-up and presentation of said material. I think could

216
01:13:52,529 --> 01:13:56,023
have brought the engagement and the education of council and community

217
01:13:56,120 --> 01:13:59,525
along, along with that. Perfect. Can I understand what

218
01:14:00,025 --> 01:14:02,398
would have been more thorough so that we can make changes moving forward?

219
01:14:05,740 --> 01:14:08,483
Well, a communication of the budget timeline,

220
01:14:09,064 --> 01:14:13,100
um, the presentation of the task force. Again, it could have been— I guess

221
01:14:13,600 --> 01:14:16,920
the question back to you, you asked Mr. Dexter, why didn't a member of council

222
01:14:16,984 --> 01:14:20,409
ask for a presentation? Why, Mr. Mayor, did you not present the

223
01:14:20,909 --> 01:14:23,367
task force information as a whole to council.

224
01:14:24,282 --> 01:14:28,389
Also too, on community and Engage Cobourg, it talks about there

225
01:14:28,889 --> 01:14:32,817
was a direction through the strong mayor to include a community engagement

226
01:14:33,683 --> 01:14:36,972
project timeline with the budget. So we put

227
01:14:37,472 --> 01:14:40,903
a budget out on Engage Cobourg, but there's been no engagement

228
01:14:41,403 --> 01:14:44,657
plan to put with that. So I guess I'm just, I'm just as confused as

229
01:14:45,157 --> 01:14:48,939
everybody and trying to follow along all the release of information. Short period

230
01:14:49,439 --> 01:14:52,288
of time, but I just want to make sure to make it very, very clear.

231
01:14:53,329 --> 01:14:57,222
It was your directive, it was your output. A presentation

232
01:14:57,238 --> 01:15:00,699
of the task force to all of Council and the community, I think, would have

233
01:15:01,199 --> 01:15:05,041
been a strong stewardship of the investment, but also too,

234
01:15:05,506 --> 01:15:09,960
really strong opportunity to highlight and recognize and appreciate

235
01:15:10,569 --> 01:15:13,997
the work of, of the task force. Okay, perfect. So I'm gonna

236
01:15:14,061 --> 01:15:18,852
go address those because I think it's really important. So the communication budget

237
01:15:19,352 --> 01:15:22,640
that would have fallen to staff. So I guess what sort of criticisms or what

238
01:15:23,140 --> 01:15:26,079
could staff have done better in terms of communicating the timelines?

239
01:15:27,926 --> 01:15:31,461
Question to myself. Yeah, but you said that the communication timelines weren't

240
01:15:31,961 --> 01:15:35,349
there. Well, the timelines were published several months ago. They've never

241
01:15:35,849 --> 01:15:39,127
needed to be updated. The only update was that the timeline was pushed back by

242
01:15:39,627 --> 01:15:43,714
a week to allow for the CPS presentation. But other than that, the timelines are

243
01:15:43,762 --> 01:15:46,922
as they were written. Several months ago. So I'm just wondering, what would you like

244
01:15:47,422 --> 01:15:50,713
to see the comms department do better to sort of make it more easily understood

245
01:15:50,761 --> 01:15:53,910
by everyone? Fair. I'm not criticizing staff.

246
01:15:54,135 --> 01:15:58,264
Um, I guess, why release a budget without a communication engagement plan?

247
01:15:58,328 --> 01:16:01,653
So why release a budget document but then it also

248
01:16:01,702 --> 01:16:05,123
says to release an engagement? So that's great. I'm going to answer that question.

249
01:16:05,172 --> 01:16:07,340
We'll just go one by one just to make sure we keep it sort of

250
01:16:07,840 --> 01:16:10,907
straight. Um, that's the way it's always been done. So the draft gets presented and

251
01:16:10,939 --> 01:16:14,858
then the engagement happens. So today the draft was presented and

252
01:16:14,874 --> 01:16:17,861
now the engagement happens. So that's the exact way it always happens.

253
01:16:18,246 --> 01:16:21,426
Draft comes forward, then engagement occurs. The difference is

254
01:16:21,522 --> 01:16:25,071
that I'm presenting the budget instead of staff, but the process is

255
01:16:25,571 --> 01:16:29,214
always the same: draft, engagement, council makes final decision.

256
01:16:29,311 --> 01:16:32,924
So again, I'm just trying to understand when you say we could have

257
01:16:33,424 --> 01:16:37,822
been more thorough and that the comms department— it was confusing. I don't understand

258
01:16:38,322 --> 01:16:40,649
that. So I'd just like to know specific part that was confusing.

259
01:16:42,079 --> 01:16:45,453
Um, I think the question— I think I'm confused in the question,

260
01:16:45,486 --> 01:16:49,149
but if I can go back, then why the task force document,

261
01:16:49,165 --> 01:16:52,925
which was published 2 or 3 weeks ago? Perfect. Again, Mr. Mayor, at any time

262
01:16:53,425 --> 01:16:56,653
you could have called a special meeting of your team, which you so proudly

263
01:16:57,153 --> 01:17:00,895
state in leading. Um, so again, the task force information

264
01:17:01,395 --> 01:17:04,591
could have been presented to council. I'm just saying, last week

265
01:17:05,091 --> 01:17:08,218
the the mayor's budget was published,

266
01:17:08,988 --> 01:17:12,101
and in that same documentation

267
01:17:12,599 --> 01:17:15,792
it said a special meeting would be scheduled in the future.

268
01:17:16,450 --> 01:17:19,339
Council had to petition to create that special meeting. So I guess I'm just saying,

269
01:17:19,371 --> 01:17:22,581
if I were the one packaging this all up and releasing it,

270
01:17:22,886 --> 01:17:26,480
I would have made sure that when the budget came forward that it

271
01:17:26,561 --> 01:17:30,717
also came forward with a comprehensive and communication

272
01:17:30,829 --> 01:17:34,039
plan. So if you— if staff needed more time to present that plan, then why

273
01:17:34,539 --> 01:17:37,645
didn't you wait on the release of the budget, knowing that the 30 days kicks

274
01:17:38,145 --> 01:17:41,239
off. Um, let's stop there. Just— I'm happy to hear more. I just want to

275
01:17:41,287 --> 01:17:45,242
answer that question. See, Yvonne, um, when the budget was presented, did I

276
01:17:45,742 --> 01:17:49,029
give direction within the minute to make sure the communication piece was put out?

277
01:17:50,803 --> 01:17:54,816
Engagement piece. Because what we've heard is that it wasn't done comprehensively,

278
01:17:54,832 --> 01:17:58,233
and I'm just wanting to know if you could perhaps counteract that narrative.

279
01:17:58,297 --> 01:18:02,146
Because the reality is, is we talked the weekend before— the Friday and the

280
01:18:02,646 --> 01:18:05,930
Thursday before I released the budget out the engagement piece, and I believe my

281
01:18:06,430 --> 01:18:09,964
direction was whatever council wants, this is their time to engage.

282
01:18:10,028 --> 01:18:13,174
So make sure that the council has the engagement that they

283
01:18:13,674 --> 01:18:15,819
look forward to. I know that was my direction to Kara Uwali as well as

284
01:18:15,932 --> 01:18:19,463
Jenny. I'm wondering, is that a fair assessment,

285
01:18:19,559 --> 01:18:22,365
or did I just sort of not tell staff what to do for the engagement?

286
01:18:25,720 --> 01:18:29,241
Thank you, Your Worship. Um, my understanding,

287
01:18:29,678 --> 01:18:33,183
um, would be yes, that you had spoken to communications staff and

288
01:18:33,683 --> 01:18:37,900
asked them to begin to release information

289
01:18:38,400 --> 01:18:42,400
and engagement. I believe Ms. Ewale and Ms.

290
01:18:42,900 --> 01:18:45,500
Nuttall are on the line. I don't want to speak on their behalf because I

291
01:18:46,000 --> 01:18:49,420
wasn't present for the conversation, so I don't really want to put words in their

292
01:18:49,920 --> 01:18:52,240
mouth. No problem, we'll go to Ms. Ewale. Thank you. As she's the director I

293
01:18:52,740 --> 01:18:54,620
dealt with as you were off that week. So Ms. Ewale, are you with us

294
01:18:55,120 --> 01:18:58,280
today? I am. I'm not sure you can hear me. Can you hear me?

295
01:18:58,780 --> 01:19:01,262
I can, yes, we can hear you loud and clear. So, Uh,

296
01:19:01,663 --> 01:19:04,405
what we're just sort of making sure we're all on the same page here with

297
01:19:04,905 --> 01:19:08,125
sort of the timelines. We've heard that some of the timelines were really confusing and

298
01:19:08,221 --> 01:19:10,402
were not delivered appropriately.

299
01:19:10,947 --> 01:19:15,886
We're looking at the specifics, and what I've heard recently is that the direction

300
01:19:15,999 --> 01:19:19,911
to staff wasn't necessarily clear or direct in terms of the engagement.

301
01:19:20,120 --> 01:19:23,279
I was wondering if you'd like to perhaps summarize and recant the conversation you,

302
01:19:23,311 --> 01:19:26,598
me, and the Communications Director had prior to

303
01:19:27,098 --> 01:19:29,628
the actual budget release being put Yes,

304
01:19:31,007 --> 01:19:34,325
for sure. Through you, Mayor, to the rest of council.

305
01:19:35,111 --> 01:19:38,701
So we had communicated several months

306
01:19:39,201 --> 01:19:43,446
ago the processes of the new budget process

307
01:19:43,655 --> 01:19:48,223
and the introduction of the community engagement

308
01:19:48,723 --> 01:19:52,776
through the task force. So Mayor Cleveland had

309
01:19:53,193 --> 01:19:56,559
expressed to us that he would be going door to door as well as the

310
01:19:57,059 --> 01:20:00,488
introduction of the community task force would be a new opportunity Committee

311
01:20:00,988 --> 01:20:02,882
for Ground Level Community Engagement.

312
01:20:04,120 --> 01:20:07,414
Following the completion of the report,

313
01:20:07,816 --> 01:20:12,539
Mayor Cleveland did direct staff to post all information

314
01:20:12,959 --> 01:20:17,171
regarding the budget on Engage Cobourg. So it would be a one-stop

315
01:20:17,671 --> 01:20:21,595
shop for members of the public to receive

316
01:20:21,627 --> 01:20:25,036
information on the mayor's proposed budget, but also the

317
01:20:25,536 --> 01:20:29,383
documents that informed the budget, which is in part the community-led

318
01:20:29,415 --> 01:20:33,509
task force as well as the staff budget. So all documents

319
01:20:33,654 --> 01:20:36,897
are housed on Engage Cobourg for any residents

320
01:20:37,363 --> 01:20:41,585
to take a look. We are also advising

321
01:20:42,420 --> 01:20:46,434
members of the public that they can come and request delegations

322
01:20:46,934 --> 01:20:50,785
if they have comments on the budget itself. And further,

323
01:20:51,396 --> 01:20:54,949
If council would like to set up, as we have done

324
01:20:55,449 --> 01:20:58,486
in the past, Mayor Cleveland and I did speak with this as well as the

325
01:20:58,663 --> 01:21:02,904
Manager of Communications, Jenny Nuttall, that it is within council's

326
01:21:02,920 --> 01:21:07,973
right if they'd like us to set up in-person sessions with

327
01:21:08,005 --> 01:21:11,567
members of the public about the budget

328
01:21:12,067 --> 01:21:15,098
itself. The only direction we would need from council is

329
01:21:15,276 --> 01:21:19,171
when and how this would come back back through a report

330
01:21:19,251 --> 01:21:22,346
at another future session. So that's why, as of right now,

331
01:21:22,474 --> 01:21:26,724
we've requested that people review all of the budget documentation and come

332
01:21:27,224 --> 01:21:31,022
with questions as delegations or speakers to, uh, special council

333
01:21:31,038 --> 01:21:34,647
meetings. Thank you, Miss Ueli. I do appreciate that fulsome answer.

334
01:21:35,128 --> 01:21:38,544
Um, and I've just finalized the last sort of point, Deputy Mayor,

335
01:21:38,656 --> 01:21:41,944
was that I could have come forward and presented the task force to

336
01:21:42,444 --> 01:21:45,663
council. I at the exact same time I did to all of the public.

337
01:21:46,192 --> 01:21:49,302
I believe that a public document like the task force budget needs to go to

338
01:21:49,334 --> 01:21:52,860
everyone on an equal level. It's been public to council and

339
01:21:53,360 --> 01:21:56,691
to the general public since the day— basically the Monday I received it.

340
01:21:57,333 --> 01:22:01,276
I received, I believe, on the Friday before I had the chance to

341
01:22:01,340 --> 01:22:04,947
read it. I felt that the budget task force did a very good

342
01:22:05,447 --> 01:22:08,698
job at breaking it down to a comprehensible level

343
01:22:08,794 --> 01:22:12,418
for the average citizen. I felt that they deduced major,

344
01:22:12,498 --> 01:22:15,773
major tax issues and

345
01:22:15,822 --> 01:22:18,758
theory to an approachable level,

346
01:22:19,129 --> 01:22:22,577
and I didn't think a detailed presentation was needed. I felt that all 42 present—

347
01:22:22,691 --> 01:22:26,571
all 42 recommendations were pretty self-explanatory, and a lot

348
01:22:27,071 --> 01:22:30,178
of them needed more development from a municipal standpoint anyways. These were sort of good

349
01:22:30,678 --> 01:22:33,882
ideas that needed to be then developed, which I would expect that they would— Council's

350
01:22:34,382 --> 01:22:38,136
decision. So just to sort of address some of the concerns and/or suggestions

351
01:22:38,153 --> 01:22:41,435
that it was a mismatch. I, I just— I'm going

352
01:22:41,935 --> 01:22:45,177
to oppose that. This has been very well communicated

353
01:22:45,677 --> 01:22:48,839
by staff, by the staff team. We've had multiple training sessions

354
01:22:48,855 --> 01:22:52,211
on this. We've publicly had this. There's been special meetings

355
01:22:52,307 --> 01:22:55,696
called about this. So I just want to push back, uh, in the sort

356
01:22:56,196 --> 01:22:59,309
of implication and suggestion that this is chaotic in any

357
01:22:59,809 --> 01:23:03,228
shape, way, or form, even when we needed to move the budget process back

358
01:23:03,244 --> 01:23:06,534
by a week, uh, just to make sure that we could hear from the Cobourg

359
01:23:07,034 --> 01:23:09,934
Police Service and have that thorough presentation, uh,

360
01:23:10,463 --> 01:23:13,494
that was easily achieved and everything moved back a week. So I would suggest that

361
01:23:13,994 --> 01:23:17,166
this is like every other budget process. Yes, the only difference is it's titled as

362
01:23:17,215 --> 01:23:20,662
the mayor's draft budget, but again, this wasn't just a symbolic move.

363
01:23:20,710 --> 01:23:24,752
This is the reality, is that it— if council wants to change

364
01:23:24,800 --> 01:23:28,648
everything, if council wants to readjust, if they want to start from the drawing board,

365
01:23:28,664 --> 01:23:33,754
that's council's prerogative, and I, I won't be getting in the that.

366
01:23:33,916 --> 01:23:37,240
By all means, Deputy Mayor. Thank you, Mayor Cleveland. Just, uh, my,

367
01:23:37,562 --> 01:23:41,273
my wrap-up on this, because, uh, first of all, no criticism on staff.

368
01:23:41,354 --> 01:23:44,610
I just want to make that very, very clear. I did not use the

369
01:23:44,642 --> 01:23:47,895
word chaotic. I said confusing. And really what, uh,

370
01:23:48,281 --> 01:23:51,470
stemmed all of this is, first of all, in, in all this,

371
01:23:51,486 --> 01:23:54,665
it was a response to council creating an island of

372
01:23:55,165 --> 01:23:59,218
isolation. Um, I think this whole process

373
01:23:59,718 --> 01:24:03,791
has created that. Um, but really where my comment about the staff engagement or clarification

374
01:24:03,823 --> 01:24:07,606
came around, um, was on Engage Cobourg

375
01:24:07,654 --> 01:24:11,164
under what happens next. The first bullet point clearly

376
01:24:11,212 --> 01:24:14,915
stated— so when the budget was first published, the first

377
01:24:14,947 --> 01:24:18,377
2 bullet points said, as per the mayor's directive,

378
01:24:18,634 --> 01:24:22,256
he has directed staff to engage the community. Then there was a second bullet

379
01:24:22,756 --> 01:24:27,769
point that a future special meeting of council would be called. Called. Council called

380
01:24:28,269 --> 01:24:31,630
this meeting. That's been updated to state December 15th.

381
01:24:31,710 --> 01:24:35,299
All the documents are there. That's really great. But really, Mr. Mayor, what I'm

382
01:24:35,315 --> 01:24:38,999
getting at is the foundation of what initiated

383
01:24:39,499 --> 01:24:42,973
my comments was asking for clarity around that first bullet

384
01:24:42,989 --> 01:24:46,369
point. As per the mayor's directive, he has directed staff to

385
01:24:46,869 --> 01:24:50,582
engage the community other than your door knocking, where we don't

386
01:24:50,598 --> 01:24:54,011
have any summaries of those findings. I mean, we all do our own

387
01:24:54,219 --> 01:24:58,278
door knocking and engagement in town calls and indirect informal conversations

388
01:24:58,632 --> 01:25:02,133
as members at large. Um, when I read this

389
01:25:02,326 --> 01:25:06,084
and when I've had members of the public ask me, how have you directed staff

390
01:25:06,584 --> 01:25:10,534
to engage the community? When I go to engage Coburg, I have no opportunity to

391
01:25:11,034 --> 01:25:14,838
engage. This is— anyways, I'm not going to hash

392
01:25:15,338 --> 01:25:18,790
this out anymore. I just wanted to come full circle with, um, to explain what

393
01:25:19,290 --> 01:25:22,660
initiated that original, um, series of

394
01:25:23,160 --> 01:25:25,953
my comments. Thank you. Noted. Thank you so much. Are there any questions moving forward

395
01:25:26,453 --> 01:25:29,985
of that? Seeing none, I think we should move on to our next speaker.

396
01:25:30,033 --> 01:25:33,486
Thank you for being so patient. Mr. Bisson, would you care to join us up

397
01:25:33,711 --> 01:25:36,940
front for your 10 minutes? We've done this before, so you know I'll put the

398
01:25:37,440 --> 01:25:40,248
two fingers up when we're close to 2 minutes. Mr. Bisson, we look forward to

399
01:25:40,297 --> 01:25:42,561
hearing your, uh, presentation.

400
01:25:47,846 --> 01:25:51,595
Yes, there we go. Okay, well, good morning

401
01:25:51,627 --> 01:25:55,634
or afternoon everyone. Uh, this was, uh, a bit of a surprise

402
01:25:56,134 --> 01:25:58,614
I showed up here this morning. I wasn't intending to, so I don't have prepared

403
01:25:59,114 --> 01:26:03,181
statements or anything like that, but I've been, um, extremely busy doing

404
01:26:03,681 --> 01:26:07,347
my own thing and watching you guys from afar, and I can honestly tell you

405
01:26:07,411 --> 01:26:11,113
that 10 months from an election, uh, seems to be the gloves are off

406
01:26:11,613 --> 01:26:14,927
and everybody's starting to position themselves. And we just had a a perfect example,

407
01:26:14,943 --> 01:26:18,534
ladies and gentlemen of the public, as to what happens in an election year

408
01:26:19,034 --> 01:26:24,033
when politicians start to jockey for positions on a move-forward basis.

409
01:26:24,482 --> 01:26:27,848
This process is a new process for COBRA. We've never had a

410
01:26:28,348 --> 01:26:31,904
mayor's budget before, and under strong mayor powers, it is his prerogative

411
01:26:31,936 --> 01:26:35,190
to be able to do that, and which he has done, and now we stand

412
01:26:35,607 --> 01:26:39,423
all here. One of the things that I've noted is under strong mayor

413
01:26:39,471 --> 01:26:42,987
powers, I don't remember seeing that the mayor has the power to

414
01:26:43,487 --> 01:26:47,082
be able to manipulate or dictate terms and conditions of a police

415
01:26:47,582 --> 01:26:50,840
services budget. I didn't see that. I may have missed it, but as

416
01:26:50,856 --> 01:26:54,502
far as I'm concerned, that is a whole other process.

417
01:26:55,289 --> 01:26:59,223
To my knowledge, there's a reason why the Police Services Board exists

418
01:26:59,723 --> 01:27:03,768
and not police services under council, and that's to keep the two separate.

419
01:27:04,909 --> 01:27:08,233
And under my knowledge, and I looked looked up, and I've asked people,

420
01:27:08,860 --> 01:27:12,762
but there's nothing in the legislation I can see that gives the mayor the authority

421
01:27:12,778 --> 01:27:16,376
to be able to dictate terms and conditions on the police services

422
01:27:16,408 --> 01:27:20,680
budget. Having said that, obviously somebody

423
01:27:20,729 --> 01:27:24,872
had to, to address the concerns of a 20% increase

424
01:27:25,001 --> 01:27:28,518
in that budget, and obviously that is not palpable through the

425
01:27:29,018 --> 01:27:31,955
population, including myself, which has— I pay taxes in this town,

426
01:27:32,533 --> 01:27:36,028
and back Dave's point, I don't think there's an appetite, let alone

427
01:27:36,076 --> 01:27:39,425
a financial condition, in which anybody's going to take a 20% hit

428
01:27:39,925 --> 01:27:43,158
on any big blind item like the Police Services budget. Um,

429
01:27:43,687 --> 01:27:47,532
one of the things that I would encourage this council, including the mayor, is to

430
01:27:48,032 --> 01:27:51,378
work collaboratively. I'm not seeing a whole lot of love in here. You guys are

431
01:27:51,878 --> 01:27:55,223
going at each other and positioning and jockeying for the next election, which is fair.

432
01:27:56,329 --> 01:27:59,774
Having said that, there's an entire population of 20,000 people that depend

433
01:28:00,274 --> 01:28:03,294
on you working together and getting getting it done, and that's not what I'm seeing

434
01:28:03,390 --> 01:28:06,562
here. So as far as I'm concerned, yes, I do

435
01:28:07,062 --> 01:28:10,620
appreciate a small increase in the levy. We've got enormous problems

436
01:28:10,668 --> 01:28:14,613
in regards to these reserves issues. There are big decisions that need to be made,

437
01:28:15,422 --> 01:28:18,785
and I'm not seeing a whole lot of collaboration, collaboration in

438
01:28:18,817 --> 01:28:22,058
addressing the concerns of the public, which is what you are here to serve.

439
01:28:23,634 --> 01:28:27,237
I have tremendous respect for each and every one of these council members, each and

440
01:28:27,333 --> 01:28:29,656
every one of you put your lives personally,

441
01:28:29,977 --> 01:28:33,635
professionally, financially aside to run for public office,

442
01:28:33,747 --> 01:28:36,378
and you earned my respect right off the bat.

443
01:28:36,940 --> 01:28:40,389
However, the terms and conditions of your mandate

444
01:28:40,889 --> 01:28:44,608
is to serve us, the public, not your individual interests, not your

445
01:28:44,656 --> 01:28:48,394
political aspirations, not your egos. And I

446
01:28:48,426 --> 01:28:51,234
would ask each and every one of you in this election year,

447
01:28:51,458 --> 01:28:54,923
especially during this time, which is an important budget because it

448
01:28:55,423 --> 01:28:59,544
will lay the foundation for the next council's decisions to try to get along

449
01:28:59,961 --> 01:29:03,233
and do the right thing for the people of Coburg. We have

450
01:29:03,330 --> 01:29:06,442
been through hell and back since this council formed.

451
01:29:07,741 --> 01:29:12,089
Crime, homelessness, drugs, the county forcing itself

452
01:29:12,589 --> 01:29:16,147
upon— like, guys, come on. Okay, put your differences

453
01:29:16,180 --> 01:29:19,853
aside for the next 30 days and do what's right for

454
01:29:19,869 --> 01:29:22,772
the people of That's all I have to say.

455
01:29:23,398 --> 01:29:26,284
Thank you, Mr. Bisson. Uh, do we have any questions at this time?

456
01:29:27,712 --> 01:29:30,855
I have one, sir. I appreciate it. I want to be very clear, you're correct,

457
01:29:30,919 --> 01:29:34,800
I don't have the ability to authorize reserves. Only this council

458
01:29:35,300 --> 01:29:38,585
does, Mr. Bisson, which is why this is— so, Mr.

459
01:29:38,633 --> 01:29:41,953
Bisson, again, we're, we're not, we're not going back in the back. And again,

460
01:29:42,321 --> 01:29:46,635
the entirety of the police board's budget has been approved as submitted.

461
01:29:47,294 --> 01:29:50,778
That's the difference, Mr. Buisson. No, no, I want to be very clear.

462
01:29:51,372 --> 01:29:55,129
I've attempted to meet with the Police Board. I was never invited

463
01:29:55,161 --> 01:29:58,244
to a Police Board meeting. I was never invited to come,

464
01:29:58,517 --> 01:30:02,114
and it was only after I watched a Police Board meeting online did I know

465
01:30:02,130 --> 01:30:05,759
that they even wanted to present to council. So then I invited them

466
01:30:06,259 --> 01:30:10,206
to present to council, Mr. Buisson. After they presented to council, I then

467
01:30:10,335 --> 01:30:14,410
sent emails looking to meet with the chief with the chair and

468
01:30:14,910 --> 01:30:18,644
with Roger to meet with myself and Mr. Giddings. That was also denied,

469
01:30:18,676 --> 01:30:21,979
sir. I've tried to act collaboratively. I would

470
01:30:22,479 --> 01:30:26,180
suggest, sir, when you talk about a lack of collaboration, how is

471
01:30:26,276 --> 01:30:29,980
it that the Police Board Service has already filled out an appointment

472
01:30:29,996 --> 01:30:33,348
of a conciliation officer before the budget was even presented,

473
01:30:33,364 --> 01:30:37,084
sir? How is it that I'm sitting here in— hold on— in

474
01:30:37,757 --> 01:30:40,964
receipt of multiple legal opinions that are suggesting the

475
01:30:41,464 --> 01:30:45,228
Police Board have— are intentionally looking to create a fight.

476
01:30:45,998 --> 01:30:49,765
Specifically, why is it that we are being challenged

477
01:30:50,265 --> 01:30:53,116
as the reason that we're not getting along, sir? And why are the other sides

478
01:30:53,148 --> 01:30:56,835
not held accountable? And lastly, um, I agree

479
01:30:57,637 --> 01:31:01,260
it is the Police Board that should be allocating reserves, and they have. In the

480
01:31:01,760 --> 01:31:05,155
last 4 years, this Police Board has used $9.87 million

481
01:31:06,279 --> 01:31:09,811
out of the corporate business service unit to fund

482
01:31:10,311 --> 01:31:13,408
operations. And each and every year, Mr. Bisson— hold on,

483
01:31:13,585 --> 01:31:16,876
I'm about to answer a question— each and every year,

484
01:31:16,892 --> 01:31:20,890
sir, I've sat here and asked, why is the Police Board

485
01:31:21,390 --> 01:31:24,712
not asking for more money, sir? So to your point,

486
01:31:25,547 --> 01:31:28,068
what more in collaboration would you like to see, sir?

487
01:31:31,905 --> 01:31:35,807
You are the mayor of Cobourg. It is your responsibility to lead this

488
01:31:35,919 --> 01:31:39,580
council. From the time that Strong Mayor Powers

489
01:31:39,676 --> 01:31:42,823
came on board, it has been contentious. No one's

490
01:31:43,323 --> 01:31:47,206
gonna lie about that. Now, having said that, the police services

491
01:31:47,318 --> 01:31:49,919
is the biggest line item on the budget by far,

492
01:31:50,851 --> 01:31:54,254
and I can understand and appreciate you're trying to contain costs.

493
01:31:54,399 --> 01:31:58,124
I get that. Having said that though, it is not through butting

494
01:31:58,300 --> 01:32:01,768
heads with them and going to court, and it's not by, you know,

495
01:32:02,073 --> 01:32:05,429
having dismissals of chief officers

496
01:32:05,702 --> 01:32:09,234
to be able to come to a conclusion on this. There is

497
01:32:09,734 --> 01:32:13,183
a Police Services Board. Two of your councillors sit on that Police Services Board.

498
01:32:13,488 --> 01:32:16,924
I find it hard to believe, Mr. Mayor, that you couldn't sit down with them

499
01:32:17,424 --> 01:32:20,440
over a coffee and start to hack some of these issues out rather than having

500
01:32:20,472 --> 01:32:23,892
it all go through all these technicalities. Well, let's just call it what it is.

501
01:32:24,390 --> 01:32:27,616
The Deputy Mayor refuses to meet with me one-on-one, and I

502
01:32:28,116 --> 01:32:31,147
can provide the email that shows that neither the Chief Roger nor the chair wanted

503
01:32:31,647 --> 01:32:34,357
to meet with me, sir. So again, I don't get to decide whether they come

504
01:32:34,857 --> 01:32:38,385
to use my open-door policy, Mr. Bisson. I can only create the open door for

505
01:32:38,885 --> 01:32:41,065
them to walk through. And again, I'm not here to— you know, you, you,

506
01:32:41,418 --> 01:32:44,628
you guys are all adults, right? You guys know what the gig

507
01:32:45,128 --> 01:32:48,657
is. You're supposed to help the population get through these things, and I'm not going

508
01:32:48,801 --> 01:32:51,915
to start— you know, an election's coming in 10 months. The people

509
01:32:52,415 --> 01:32:55,752
will decide Agreed. No question about that. And I will be active in that election.

510
01:32:55,848 --> 01:32:59,140
Trust me. Now, having said that, you are all adults.

511
01:32:59,381 --> 01:33:02,913
We're talking about somewhere in the order of $30 million that

512
01:33:03,413 --> 01:33:06,542
you're managing on behalf of the public. I expect that you guys get along a

513
01:33:07,042 --> 01:33:09,801
little bit and start acting a little bit more professional than pointing fingers at each

514
01:33:09,898 --> 01:33:13,527
other like a schoolyard. Mr. Bisson, I appreciate the enthusiasm

515
01:33:14,027 --> 01:33:17,364
you bring, but let's not start— Oh yeah, I'm not happy about it. I'll be

516
01:33:17,864 --> 01:33:21,195
honest. Mr. Bisson, a little bit of decorum. We're having a conversation

517
01:33:21,243 --> 01:33:24,960
and I can see how passionate and how emotional you're getting, but we're talking

518
01:33:25,009 --> 01:33:28,358
about sort of six and one half

519
01:33:28,858 --> 01:33:32,380
dozen the other. The police budget was approved in its entirety, all 20.5%.

520
01:33:32,828 --> 01:33:36,194
Every ask that was asked by the Police Board has been met, sir. It's not

521
01:33:36,694 --> 01:33:39,655
the end result, it's how we got here. There could have been a lot less

522
01:33:40,155 --> 01:33:43,485
contention and buttheading. And again, Mr. Bisson, what I would like to ask

523
01:33:43,985 --> 01:33:47,729
then as a final questions. You've been very poignant and paying

524
01:33:48,229 --> 01:33:51,614
attention to the police board meetings since, well, the last 4 years,

525
01:33:51,679 --> 01:33:54,968
to be honest. Can you point to a single suggestion that was

526
01:33:55,032 --> 01:33:58,343
made by the chief that was not allowed on the budget line item

527
01:33:58,391 --> 01:34:01,816
in 4 years by the police board? Because I've been unable to find one.

528
01:34:02,448 --> 01:34:05,641
So I guess my question is, is it really the police board's budget, or as

529
01:34:05,738 --> 01:34:09,319
we've heard in the most recent weekend media, it's just the chief's

530
01:34:09,819 --> 01:34:12,965
budget? Okay, so having said, I'm not going to go down that road. As far

531
01:34:13,465 --> 01:34:15,904
as I'm concerned, I haven't looked at a police service's budget in 2 years.

532
01:34:16,338 --> 01:34:20,161
So having said that, all I'm saying is this: the Coburg

533
01:34:20,193 --> 01:34:24,337
taxpayer has had enough of watching this headbutting

534
01:34:24,755 --> 01:34:28,176
and finger-pointing and political posturing at our

535
01:34:28,305 --> 01:34:32,449
expense. We want results. And as far as I'm concerned,

536
01:34:32,642 --> 01:34:36,014
given the condition of our streets over the last 2 and a half Given the

537
01:34:36,094 --> 01:34:39,945
budget items, given all of the cost increases, given the conflict

538
01:34:40,445 --> 01:34:44,180
with the county, on and on it goes. This next election

539
01:34:44,680 --> 01:34:47,357
is gonna be real important to be able to sort this out. This is Cobourg.

540
01:34:47,501 --> 01:34:50,357
This isn't downtown Toronto. It's not Ottawa.

541
01:34:50,854 --> 01:34:54,705
It's a small town on the lakeshore of Lake Ontario. Why is all

542
01:34:55,205 --> 01:34:57,801
of this happening under this council? This is very,

543
01:34:57,978 --> 01:35:01,509
very, uh, counterproductive. Have to

544
01:35:01,590 --> 01:35:05,353
our town. Have you been reading much news, Mr. Bissell? I read news

545
01:35:05,449 --> 01:35:08,504
all the time. So then you're being very well aware that this is not unique

546
01:35:09,004 --> 01:35:12,300
to Coburg? No, that there are almost— sorry, Mr. Bissell, again,

547
01:35:12,413 --> 01:35:15,089
let's have a little— I have a point of order, sir.

548
01:35:16,480 --> 01:35:19,230
Point of order noted. The point of order, Mr. Bissell,

549
01:35:19,376 --> 01:35:23,970
how you're

550
01:35:24,470 --> 01:35:28,690
conducting yourself inappropriately. It is No,

551
01:35:28,707 --> 01:35:30,895
I'm asking questions. I'm asking them calmly.

552
01:35:33,020 --> 01:35:35,992
Mr. Bisson, you keep interrupting while I'm speaking,

553
01:35:36,169 --> 01:35:39,559
yet I continue to give you the ability to finish your thoughts

554
01:35:40,059 --> 01:35:43,662
before I ask another question. See, you're doing it just now, sir. Point of order

555
01:35:44,162 --> 01:35:47,293
raised by the Deputy Mayor. By all means, a point of order.

556
01:35:47,681 --> 01:35:51,005
With all due respect to the speaker, I appreciate your insight

557
01:35:51,505 --> 01:35:54,728
and, and your comments, and my point of order right now is I feel that

558
01:35:55,228 --> 01:35:58,855
procedurally we are getting into a debate between a member of council and

559
01:35:58,935 --> 01:36:02,487
a citizen. I feel that we need to treat— you're

560
01:36:02,987 --> 01:36:05,731
asking for respect, so I'd like to ask that we respect the time of the

561
01:36:05,780 --> 01:36:09,086
speaker and the points made. And my point of order is,

562
01:36:09,183 --> 01:36:11,989
I believe that if we can move on in the conversation,

563
01:36:12,572 --> 01:36:16,191
unless there's other follow-up questions of clarity to the speaker. So my

564
01:36:16,691 --> 01:36:19,729
point of order is that we get back to following our procedural bylaw when

565
01:36:20,229 --> 01:36:23,253
it comes to— from the presentation.

566
01:36:24,267 --> 01:36:27,359
And instead of an interrogation from a member of council to the—

567
01:36:27,471 --> 01:36:30,644
um, what interrogation, Councilor, uh, Deputy Mayor? Let's just

568
01:36:30,676 --> 01:36:34,425
be very clear with the insinuations. There was no interrogation, it was asking questions.

569
01:36:34,538 --> 01:36:38,159
So would you like to recant the interrogation comment, or are you accusing me of

570
01:36:38,659 --> 01:36:41,828
interrogating a member of the public? I'm not going any further because

571
01:36:42,328 --> 01:36:45,257
I don't want to contribute to this ongoing tension. I've asked for a point of

572
01:36:45,289 --> 01:36:48,478
order to return to this procedural bylaw, please. And I'm willing to rule on that

573
01:36:48,978 --> 01:36:51,884
point of order. I'm asking if you're sticking by the statement of accusing me of

574
01:36:51,970 --> 01:36:55,152
interrogation. It was no— it was no

575
01:36:55,297 --> 01:36:58,830
accusation, it was a statement. I'm calling for a point of order.

576
01:36:59,023 --> 01:37:01,330
And again, the point of order is what, Deputy Mayor?

577
01:37:01,992 --> 01:37:05,284
The point of order is I believe as a member of council we have

578
01:37:05,623 --> 01:37:07,286
distracted— we have, um,

579
01:37:08,804 --> 01:37:12,421
drifted from our procedural bylaw. I appreciate

580
01:37:12,921 --> 01:37:15,760
the speaker's time, and I feel that we need to move on in our budget

581
01:37:15,793 --> 01:37:18,787
process. Process. Okay, so I'm just looking at a point of order.

582
01:37:18,835 --> 01:37:21,852
So, um, we're going to go through this because we're going to stick to the

583
01:37:22,352 --> 01:37:25,656
rules, as you'd like to, Deputy Mayor. Um, so a point of order— a motion

584
01:37:26,156 --> 01:37:30,214
on a matter of privilege shall receive a disposition. So the chair shall preserve

585
01:37:30,714 --> 01:37:33,905
order and decide points of order and points of privilege. When a member rises

586
01:37:33,921 --> 01:37:36,296
to a point of order, he or she shall ask the leave of the chair

587
01:37:36,796 --> 01:37:38,816
to raise a point of order, and after the leave is granted, the member shall

588
01:37:39,316 --> 01:37:41,978
state the point of order and sit down and remain seated until the chair has

589
01:37:42,090 --> 01:37:45,526
decided and stated the point of order. I'm trying to

590
01:37:46,026 --> 01:37:49,444
do that with you, Deputy Mayor, and I'm asking questions before I can rule on

591
01:37:49,460 --> 01:37:53,442
the point of order. So what I'm trying to understand is, when you accuse the

592
01:37:53,474 --> 01:37:56,926
chair of interrogation, is that your point of order?

593
01:37:57,022 --> 01:38:00,314
Are you accusing me of interrogating our speaker,

594
01:38:00,555 --> 01:38:03,605
and is that your point of order? Or what exactly is the point of

595
01:38:04,105 --> 01:38:07,427
order with which you are raising? I'm not trying to cause consternation. I'm trying

596
01:38:07,459 --> 01:38:11,149
to understand your point of order. So for the third

597
01:38:11,649 --> 01:38:14,012
time, I'm going to reiterate my point of order is I feel that we have

598
01:38:14,061 --> 01:38:17,648
drifted from our procedural bylaw and a respectful exchange

599
01:38:17,841 --> 01:38:21,266
with our speaker. And then I'm

600
01:38:21,300 --> 01:38:25,062
going to ask a further clarification. At what point are

601
01:38:25,562 --> 01:38:29,608
we allowed to ask questions, and at what point do you determine as inappropriate

602
01:38:30,108 --> 01:38:33,913
asking questions? I'm not

603
01:38:34,413 --> 01:38:36,413
going to answer that because I feel that I'm being trapped into again, and,

604
01:38:36,609 --> 01:38:40,492
and clearly I'm always at risk of using the wrong word So

605
01:38:41,086 --> 01:38:44,374
I'm just going to stick to, again, for the 4th time, I'm going to repeat

606
01:38:44,759 --> 01:38:48,369
what my point of order is. I feel that we have distracted

607
01:38:48,869 --> 01:38:52,684
ourselves from the exchange of questions

608
01:38:53,117 --> 01:38:56,614
to the speaker instead of

609
01:38:56,710 --> 01:38:59,630
just asking, you know, have you assessed the news, etc.,

610
01:38:59,710 --> 01:39:02,999
etc. I feel that it's gotten off from what the speaker presented. And Mr.

611
01:39:03,047 --> 01:39:06,335
Mayor, that is the 4th time in which I'm going to

612
01:39:06,351 --> 01:39:09,848
express my point of order, and you as the chair, sir, you can rule

613
01:39:09,945 --> 01:39:12,985
on it or not. I'm still unclear as to the point of order, so I'm

614
01:39:13,001 --> 01:39:15,507
going to go to the clerk, Mr. Lamer. Mr. Lamer, could you maybe walk me

615
01:39:16,007 --> 01:39:18,337
through what I'm to do here? Because I'm not sure what the point of order

616
01:39:18,837 --> 01:39:22,073
is on, and I've read the definition, but I still— I'm trying

617
01:39:22,573 --> 01:39:23,598
to get clarification and I don't understand.

618
01:39:29,622 --> 01:39:33,062
Ah, that's got you, F. I understand. So the ruling

619
01:39:33,095 --> 01:39:36,616
on F, Mr. Lamer, is the question Deputy Mayor, are you asking? So it says

620
01:39:36,632 --> 01:39:40,269
members shall be permitted to ask questions. Questions to obtain additional information

621
01:39:40,609 --> 01:39:43,644
but shall not make statements or enter into debate. You're accusing me of entering into

622
01:39:44,144 --> 01:39:47,724
debate, is that correct? Thank you for reading that out. And then

623
01:39:47,757 --> 01:39:51,314
yes, on the grounds of finding clarity within the point of order, I believe that

624
01:39:51,814 --> 01:39:55,355
this exchange has entered into the arena of debate. I would agree

625
01:39:55,855 --> 01:39:57,996
with you, and so I will rule you are correct in your point of order,

626
01:39:58,012 --> 01:40:00,947
and I appreciate the time to get that right. As I said, I'm just trying

627
01:40:01,447 --> 01:40:03,829
to be very clear here, Deputy Mayor. It's not about tricking or cornering It's a

628
01:40:03,878 --> 01:40:07,088
simple question I'm trying to understand to make sure when I do make a

629
01:40:07,105 --> 01:40:10,880
ruling, I'm doing so appropriately. Noting that, I will end my questions.

630
01:40:10,928 --> 01:40:13,835
Thank you, Mr. Bisson, for being here today. Are there any other questions? Mr.

631
01:40:13,900 --> 01:40:16,248
Bisson, thank you very much, sir. Have a great day.

632
01:40:19,671 --> 01:40:23,054
At this time, do we have any other speakers? Mr. Larimer? Okay, so we finished

633
01:40:23,554 --> 01:40:27,407
the delegation of speakers. We're 2 hours in. I'm going

634
01:40:27,907 --> 01:40:30,494
to take, I would say, a 10— let's make it 15 minutes so Mr.

635
01:40:30,590 --> 01:40:33,650
Mr. Buro has a chance for 2. By all means,

636
01:40:34,150 --> 01:40:37,250
Mr. Darling, do you have something to say too? Well, I'm just

637
01:40:37,750 --> 01:40:40,910
wondering if we were going to take a lunch break sometime this day.

638
01:40:41,410 --> 01:40:43,410
I'm fine to hammer through, but it's up to this council. As I said,

639
01:40:43,910 --> 01:40:46,290
it's your meeting, and I'm happy to sort of follow the will of council on

640
01:40:46,790 --> 01:40:50,190
this one. Thank you. Okay, so we're going to

641
01:40:50,690 --> 01:40:54,540
take— let's meet till 12:30 then. Is that enough of a break? That's 20 minutes.

642
01:40:54,750 --> 01:40:58,390
If anyone wants to grab a snack or have a break outside, that's great.

643
01:40:58,890 --> 01:41:02,247
We'll reconvene at 12:30, and we can make decisions about lunch at that point.

644
01:41:03,339 --> 01:41:05,587
Yeah, and we can think about that at lunch if staff want to talk to,

645
01:41:05,812 --> 01:41:08,172
uh, some of the council. Thank you very much. So to the public and to

646
01:41:08,672 --> 01:41:10,773
our joiners, we will reconvene in 20 minutes. Thank you so much.

647
02:06:16,482 --> 02:06:19,479
And we are live. Thank you very much. Uh, just to note, Ms.

648
02:06:19,544 --> 02:06:22,958
Vaughn is with us, just finishing up on the coffee. She was last in line,

649
02:06:23,054 --> 02:06:26,773
not a big deal. Um, but at this time, as we come to order,

650
02:06:28,023 --> 02:06:31,726
um, I believe we're done speaking. We're done sort of general level

651
02:06:31,790 --> 02:06:34,755
questions. I know Councilor Mouton, you warned us about multiple pages.

652
02:06:35,237 --> 02:06:38,577
So, uh, I'm— by all means, Councilor Veer, you got your hand up. I'm happy

653
02:06:39,077 --> 02:06:42,783
to listen. Sorry, um, I'm sorry to interrupt, but I do, and I do

654
02:06:43,283 --> 02:06:46,509
appreciate Councilor Mouton's questions. I was just wondering if,

655
02:06:46,814 --> 02:06:50,635
if the will of council, um, if we could actually

656
02:06:50,892 --> 02:06:54,521
do the police budget now, and just

657
02:06:55,021 --> 02:06:58,776
because we have so many in the audience, if that would be okay.

658
02:06:59,418 --> 02:07:02,212
By all means, I have no problem with that whatsoever. If this will of council,

659
02:07:02,228 --> 02:07:05,414
then we bring that one forward. Um, so yeah, what would

660
02:07:05,914 --> 02:07:09,387
you like to discuss, uh, Councilor Buro? Because as is, the police budget, uh,

661
02:07:09,516 --> 02:07:13,444
is exactly as presented from the CPS. So the floor is yours.

662
02:07:14,190 --> 02:07:16,753
Um, yes, I would like to, um,

663
02:07:18,099 --> 02:07:19,899
sorry, thank you.

664
02:07:21,803 --> 02:07:26,076
Um, it's on the screen that

665
02:07:29,123 --> 02:07:33,100
the mayor's, um, Proposed Budget 2026 Operating and Capital,

666
02:07:34,014 --> 02:07:38,184
uh, be amended follows: that council amend the municipal operating

667
02:07:38,264 --> 02:07:41,455
and capital budget to include the Police Service Board

668
02:07:41,824 --> 02:07:45,256
2026 operating and capital request that was approved by

669
02:07:45,756 --> 02:07:49,602
the board and submitted to the municipality. Perfect. So before—

670
02:07:50,067 --> 02:07:52,681
I just want to clarify, so you're asking to go back to the way it

671
02:07:52,713 --> 02:07:56,145
was without the $1 million to offset the tax levy, is that correct?

672
02:07:56,210 --> 02:07:58,681
Okay, is there a seconder of this movement— motion at this time?

673
02:07:59,738 --> 02:08:02,404
Seconded by the Deputy Mayor. It's on the floor for discussion.

674
02:08:03,550 --> 02:08:06,828
Awesome. Um, if I might start, um,

675
02:08:08,081 --> 02:08:10,894
with the updated,

676
02:08:11,521 --> 02:08:14,893
um, mayor's budget, I know that that

677
02:08:14,926 --> 02:08:18,548
would change a lot of numbers, um, for next

678
02:08:19,048 --> 02:08:22,385
year. And if it would be okay, also at the will of council,

679
02:08:22,435 --> 02:08:25,493
that the chief would be able to come up and speak speak on the numbers.

680
02:08:27,870 --> 02:08:31,404
Um, I, I would be wondering, at this time the council is discussing

681
02:08:31,500 --> 02:08:35,099
the budget and you're asking for the impact to the next term

682
02:08:35,147 --> 02:08:38,217
of the police budget, is that correct? Correct. It would be, um,

683
02:08:39,296 --> 02:08:43,305
it's, it's kind of imperative that we do get the full outline

684
02:08:44,045 --> 02:08:47,492
of what will happen next year if we approve the budget as

685
02:08:47,589 --> 02:08:51,322
it is. So is this going to be a presentation from the accountant

686
02:08:51,822 --> 02:08:53,757
at the CPS Board, or is this going to be from the Cobourg Police Chief

687
02:08:54,257 --> 02:08:57,697
in conjunction with the Or both would be great.

688
02:08:57,842 --> 02:09:01,549
Okay. And just to be clear, this is a council decision. Does the council

689
02:09:02,049 --> 02:09:05,368
wish to— because it wouldn't be technically part and parcel of this, so it'd have

690
02:09:05,868 --> 02:09:07,571
to be an exemption to the rules. By all means, Councilor Mouton.

691
02:09:09,800 --> 02:09:14,205
Yes, I think it would be helpful, so I would support the request from

692
02:09:14,253 --> 02:09:18,287
the council. Okay, sounds good. Anyone else? By all means, Councilor Barber.

693
02:09:19,014 --> 02:09:23,208
I have a question for the person who lives— for

694
02:09:23,305 --> 02:09:27,662
Councilor Buro. What effect will that have

695
02:09:28,162 --> 02:09:30,917
have then on the 2.7% that we have? What, what effect will that have,

696
02:09:30,933 --> 02:09:34,395
your, your motion? Thank you. It would bring

697
02:09:34,895 --> 02:09:39,576
it back up to the 20.5%, which I do believe it work out to 4.98%

698
02:09:40,412 --> 02:09:42,745
on the tax levy total.

699
02:09:43,270 --> 02:09:46,965
That would be 4.9% additional, right? Additional.

700
02:09:47,030 --> 02:09:48,180
That would be correct, sir. Yes, sir.

701
02:09:53,420 --> 02:09:57,000
And just so council knows, by all means. So I just— I believe

702
02:09:57,500 --> 02:09:59,180
this would be an exemption to the rules. So we have to do a vote

703
02:09:59,680 --> 02:10:03,320
to— I'm just wondering, Mr. Lamer, treat it

704
02:10:03,820 --> 02:10:06,920
as a speaker before the motion— actually, motion on the floor. So we do have

705
02:10:07,420 --> 02:10:09,100
to do it. So we do a speaker. So that's per— yeah, we do have

706
02:10:09,600 --> 02:10:11,100
to suspend because the motion's on the floor. So we just have to suspend the

707
02:10:11,600 --> 02:10:14,720
rules. That's what I thought. So, in order to allow speaker while motion's

708
02:10:15,220 --> 02:10:18,047
on the floor, we just have to do a suspension of the rules. The motion

709
02:10:18,064 --> 02:10:21,359
is to suspend the rules to allow the Chief to speak. We need a two-thirds

710
02:10:21,375 --> 02:10:24,637
majority. I'm going to go to a vote. All in favor?

711
02:10:26,050 --> 02:10:29,231
So moved. Exemption of the rules. So we've got,

712
02:10:29,247 --> 02:10:32,812
I believe, 5 or 10 minutes just to confirm. 10 minutes. That's what

713
02:10:33,312 --> 02:10:34,887
I thought. Okay. Yeah.

714
02:10:46,520 --> 02:10:49,301
Yeah. Oh, yeah, with the 2.7.

715
02:10:49,722 --> 02:10:53,199
No. So what would happen is, if we're going to change right now,

716
02:10:53,263 --> 02:10:56,660
the component of the police is, I think, 1.36. Mr. Giddings can complete

717
02:10:57,160 --> 02:11:00,254
that. But if we added that, it would drive the levy to about 6 to

718
02:11:00,286 --> 02:11:01,727
7%, somewhere in that zone point.

719
02:11:07,412 --> 02:11:09,961
Is the 1 million? Yes, correct. So if we're going to take that out,

720
02:11:10,090 --> 02:11:12,574
then you're going to see the full impact of that, which is an additional 4.27%.

721
02:11:14,640 --> 02:11:18,195
Instead of the 1.37— again, I'd have to get Mr. Gittings. Hold on,

722
02:11:18,550 --> 02:11:23,577
Mr. Gittings, before this, I just need a quick question. Um, in the 2.7%

723
02:11:23,609 --> 02:11:26,589
increase, what is the percentage of the 2.7,

724
02:11:26,605 --> 02:11:28,909
Mr. Gittings, that is made up by the police budget?

725
02:11:30,600 --> 02:11:33,234
So the question is, is we have a total tax levy of 2.7%.

726
02:11:33,509 --> 02:11:35,820
I'm trying to understand, of the 2.7,

727
02:11:36,580 --> 02:11:40,055
what of that is made up by the police budget as per the mayor directive?

728
02:11:43,569 --> 02:11:46,214
Thank you. Yes, through you. Sorry, been a long week.

729
02:11:47,561 --> 02:11:50,912
So I think the Town of Cobourg portion,

730
02:11:51,008 --> 02:11:53,991
or that increase, I guess, is 1.2%.

731
02:11:54,408 --> 02:11:57,534
So that's— so 1.5%

732
02:11:58,034 --> 02:12:01,655
is currently on— is the police budget increase already? Yes. And sorry,

733
02:12:01,687 --> 02:12:05,856
and just to clarify, so by going back to the 20.5%,

734
02:12:06,080 --> 02:12:09,545
that would result in a tax a total

735
02:12:10,045 --> 02:12:13,559
tax levy increase of 6.08%. Thank you very much. I appreciate

736
02:12:14,059 --> 02:12:18,633
that. So the total tax levy going back to the original would be 6.08.

737
02:12:18,713 --> 02:12:22,166
So 6%, then from the 2.7 up to that to follow

738
02:12:22,666 --> 02:12:25,521
this motion. Thank you. And just so council knows, we will be doing mostly recorded

739
02:12:26,021 --> 02:12:29,584
votes today. So the now microphone is yours, sir. So I'm assuming,

740
02:12:29,600 --> 02:12:32,522
are you doing a 5-minute presentation that we get to hear from the chief for

741
02:12:33,022 --> 02:12:36,547
5, or how are we breaking this up? I assume that I

742
02:12:36,580 --> 02:12:39,944
was going to be responding to questions. Oh, oh, okay, by all

743
02:12:40,444 --> 02:12:43,685
means. Um, questions away.

744
02:12:45,700 --> 02:12:48,295
So, Mr. Bureau, did you want some questions? By all means, have at her.

745
02:12:49,220 --> 02:12:53,124
All right, thank you. Um, so for the— if we stuck

746
02:12:53,624 --> 02:12:57,464
with the mayor's budget, what would the percentage be next

747
02:12:57,964 --> 02:13:01,833
year? It will be back to double digits, well over 21%,

748
02:13:02,029 --> 02:13:05,523
because we will be be— sorry, true to me, to the member,

749
02:13:05,764 --> 02:13:09,487
um, we will be now putting the $1.3

750
02:13:09,987 --> 02:13:13,339
million now back on the levy, which we don't have now for 2026.

751
02:13:14,029 --> 02:13:17,384
Plus we have a recently ratified collective agreement.

752
02:13:17,978 --> 02:13:21,958
We'll have at that 4%, and recognizing that wages is just about

753
02:13:22,054 --> 02:13:26,035
90% of that 4%, which we can't get away from, that will

754
02:13:26,083 --> 02:13:29,550
come down to about 3.5%. Um, and then the challenge

755
02:13:30,050 --> 02:13:33,816
we'll have is that currently, as it stands, we to fund all

756
02:13:34,316 --> 02:13:37,486
our capital dollars from the net business revenues.

757
02:13:38,553 --> 02:13:42,431
If those reserves are eliminated, which the plan is to be,

758
02:13:42,447 --> 02:13:45,863
it means that we'll have to put the capital expenses on

759
02:13:45,992 --> 02:13:49,617
levy as well, which will be an additional 4%. So when we

760
02:13:50,117 --> 02:13:54,262
look at 13% plus 4% plus 4%, it's well over 20% in 2027.

761
02:13:56,133 --> 02:13:59,749
Well, if I could just clarify, so This year, the Cobourg Police

762
02:14:00,183 --> 02:14:03,881
is getting a 20.5% budget

763
02:14:04,381 --> 02:14:08,116
increase, and you're suggesting that because $1 million is being

764
02:14:08,148 --> 02:14:12,100
moved out of reserves, we're also going to see an additional double-digit

765
02:14:12,600 --> 02:14:13,132
20% increase?

766
02:14:16,676 --> 02:14:20,296
Oh, I apologize. The question was if we did not take the

767
02:14:20,796 --> 02:14:24,719
$1.3 from reserves, what will happen in 2027? If we

768
02:14:25,219 --> 02:14:29,450
don't take the 1.3 from— so again, I'm just trying to understand. So you're suggesting

769
02:14:30,355 --> 02:14:33,730
if we don't take the reserves, then there's the increase. But if we do take

770
02:14:34,230 --> 02:14:35,813
the reserves, again, I think we got this backwards.

771
02:14:37,827 --> 02:14:41,557
I'm just gonna give Mr. Sorry, I always get your last

772
02:14:42,057 --> 02:14:45,388
name. Thank you, Mr. Ramkinson. I just want to give you a chance to make

773
02:14:45,888 --> 02:14:49,208
sure we're being very clear. So right now, Councillor Bureau is

774
02:14:49,304 --> 02:14:52,835
asking, asking if the mayor's budget is allowed

775
02:14:53,612 --> 02:14:57,107
and $1 million comes out of reserves on top of the $2.8 million that

776
02:14:57,607 --> 02:15:01,299
the board already approved, you're suggesting that the tax levy increase next

777
02:15:01,799 --> 02:15:04,843
year will be in the double digits. Is that— sorry, no. So let's just

778
02:15:05,343 --> 02:15:08,781
clarify. Thank you. As of right now, the mayor's

779
02:15:08,797 --> 02:15:11,937
budget is taking— is depleting all

780
02:15:11,953 --> 02:15:15,999
the reserves except the building reserves. It's about $1.1

781
02:15:16,499 --> 02:15:19,691
million. The cost of the police budget

782
02:15:19,724 --> 02:15:22,951
does not change in 2027. How it's funded is going to be the issue.

783
02:15:23,577 --> 02:15:27,463
We will not have those reserves again in 2027 to

784
02:15:27,688 --> 02:15:31,220
fund the offset of the cost of the police budget, which is just

785
02:15:31,720 --> 02:15:35,042
about $14 million minus 4% contractual increases, which we'll

786
02:15:35,542 --> 02:15:39,200
have in 2027. Assuming the $2.8 million goes,

787
02:15:39,794 --> 02:15:42,936
we will still have a cost problem of $14 million.

788
02:15:43,773 --> 02:15:48,620
And I'm suggest— and I'm saying that if we don't

789
02:15:48,700 --> 02:15:52,408
take the— sorry, if you take the $1.4,

790
02:15:52,796 --> 02:15:56,421
that's just how it's funded. If we were to eliminate that,

791
02:15:56,502 --> 02:16:00,450
then that 1.3— but that $1.1 million still has to come from

792
02:16:00,950 --> 02:16:04,862
somewhere in 2027. We will not have that problem in 2026,

793
02:16:05,349 --> 02:16:07,604
but the funding has to come from somewhere in 2027.

794
02:16:09,182 --> 02:16:12,921
So 2027 will be status quo, but then come 2027,

795
02:16:12,937 --> 02:16:16,531
we come back to the same problem. And is there not a chance that

796
02:16:17,031 --> 02:16:20,078
a new council, a new police board, and a new chief are going to find

797
02:16:20,578 --> 02:16:24,218
savings within the current operating model? I ask this specifically

798
02:16:24,250 --> 02:16:28,102
because the Cobourg Police Board have twice now had

799
02:16:28,182 --> 02:16:32,579
the budget in front of them and have been unable to even find a 0.25%

800
02:16:32,675 --> 02:16:36,238
savings. And I'm wondering, is a change in the board and a change in

801
02:16:36,286 --> 02:16:39,690
the police and a change in council So maybe going to be able to find

802
02:16:39,707 --> 02:16:41,757
some savings where this board hasn't been able to?

803
02:16:43,960 --> 02:16:47,423
Well, so we've gone through those numbers

804
02:16:47,600 --> 02:16:51,691
in quite detail. I've spent a considerable amount of time fine-tuning

805
02:16:51,707 --> 02:16:55,203
all the numbers to make sure that it aligns with what

806
02:16:55,703 --> 02:16:59,556
the projections were. From my

807
02:17:00,056 --> 02:17:03,350
point of view, from a numbers person point of view, I don't— I can't see

808
02:17:03,850 --> 02:17:06,917
that we will be saving any dollars in 2027. That said, the direction of the

809
02:17:07,417 --> 02:17:10,947
new chief and the new board at that time may make different decisions that I

810
02:17:11,060 --> 02:17:14,433
would not be aware of. But as of right now, for the 2026 budget that

811
02:17:14,933 --> 02:17:18,271
has been presented, I can see with a level of

812
02:17:18,705 --> 02:17:23,250
confidence that there is no opportunities to cut any.

813
02:17:23,829 --> 02:17:26,447
That's great. There's no question at this point. I really appreciate that. And I guess,

814
02:17:26,640 --> 02:17:29,739
uh, Roger— sorry, sir, I just want to be very clear.

815
02:17:30,173 --> 02:17:33,755
Um, you said you've gone through it in quite detail, the board, and, and the—

816
02:17:34,060 --> 02:17:37,353
so could you please point to a single item that was presented in the last

817
02:17:37,401 --> 02:17:40,474
4 years by you and chief that has been rejected by the board?

818
02:17:42,790 --> 02:17:46,143
A single, a single, a single line in 4 years, please. I wouldn't,

819
02:17:46,775 --> 02:17:50,728
I wouldn't say rejected, but there has been decisions made, for example, to stagger staffing.

820
02:17:51,410 --> 02:17:54,885
So in the 2025 budget, we, the board did approve for,

821
02:17:55,242 --> 02:17:58,571
uh, 6 new members to meet adequacy

822
02:17:59,071 --> 02:18:02,396
standards. Those 6 officers were not hired in January as the

823
02:18:02,896 --> 02:18:06,268
chief and the staff presented. 3 was hired in, uh, June,

824
02:18:06,316 --> 02:18:09,154
July, and of course we have 3 other colleges right now who start in September.

825
02:18:09,202 --> 02:18:11,735
So that's, uh, that was a compromise,

826
02:18:12,328 --> 02:18:15,391
but at the end it did meet. We did, we did gather staff,

827
02:18:15,439 --> 02:18:18,966
and yet we, we met for adequacy. I guess I'm confused,

828
02:18:18,982 --> 02:18:22,509
and perhaps you can, uh, educate me, because I've heard

829
02:18:23,009 --> 02:18:26,999
the chief both publicly and in this room state that that was a mistake

830
02:18:27,499 --> 02:18:30,334
by the board to do that. And so what I'm trying to understand is,

831
02:18:30,446 --> 02:18:33,219
if the chief is saying that it's a mistake for the board to have done

832
02:18:33,719 --> 02:18:37,267
that, and I'm asking for a single example of when the board has made a

833
02:18:37,767 --> 02:18:40,913
decision to counteract the chief and your budgets.

834
02:18:41,925 --> 02:18:45,668
It seems that the only decision council or the board made specifically,

835
02:18:46,568 --> 02:18:49,797
um, was then sort of called out by the chief as that

836
02:18:50,297 --> 02:18:53,427
decision being made. So again, is there another example? And for you, again,

837
02:18:53,475 --> 02:18:57,266
we're talking about 4 years and $9.87 million have been sort

838
02:18:57,766 --> 02:19:00,624
of taken out of the business service units over the last 4 years and used

839
02:19:01,124 --> 02:19:04,940
for operations. So again, I'm just trying to understand why the

840
02:19:05,052 --> 02:19:08,645
$1.1 million going is what we're focusing on when the board

841
02:19:09,145 --> 02:19:12,463
have moved $9.87 million over 4 years with not a single

842
02:19:12,511 --> 02:19:15,895
pushback. And I'm just trying to understand why are we now worried about a single

843
02:19:16,395 --> 02:19:19,536
million when close to 10 has already shifted? Um,

844
02:19:19,793 --> 02:19:23,883
also, I think the— sorry to interrupt— I think the chief would like to speak

845
02:19:24,383 --> 02:19:27,604
as well on this. We're gonna have Roger and then

846
02:19:27,653 --> 02:19:30,769
we'll move over to the chief. Not a them will. So again,

847
02:19:30,865 --> 02:19:34,305
I just— again, I'm looking for a single line item in 4 years

848
02:19:34,418 --> 02:19:36,878
that the board pushed back on and didn't approve.

849
02:19:44,416 --> 02:19:48,209
Sure. Are we not answering that question? Yes, Councilor Darrow.

850
02:19:48,758 --> 02:19:52,091
Um, also, one of the— we have pushed back. We've pushed back on

851
02:19:52,591 --> 02:19:56,686
a lot of different things of, um, hiring more officers

852
02:19:56,703 --> 02:20:00,077
than 6 because um, 6 just kept us,

853
02:20:00,911 --> 02:20:04,148
um, adequate and effective policing. It wasn't like we— there's

854
02:20:04,276 --> 02:20:08,266
extra, extra officers that we have. Um, we had to deal

855
02:20:08,298 --> 02:20:11,070
with WSIB as well. Um,

856
02:20:11,727 --> 02:20:15,557
and the other issue is the MOU that we signed

857
02:20:16,775 --> 02:20:20,749
between council and the police board. There's— we have— we—

858
02:20:21,294 --> 02:20:24,170
council agreed there was out of the that, uh,

859
02:20:24,251 --> 02:20:28,019
2.8, we started to pay back 3% every

860
02:20:28,035 --> 02:20:31,335
year. This is where it comes up now, and I,

861
02:20:31,593 --> 02:20:34,994
I get it, but we have pushed back and worked hard and

862
02:20:35,494 --> 02:20:39,189
diligently over that budget. But there is nothing to cut in this budget

863
02:20:39,951 --> 02:20:41,133
other than using the reserve.

864
02:20:43,188 --> 02:20:46,490
So I guess I'll direct my question from yourself, sir, to the chair of the

865
02:20:46,990 --> 02:20:51,539
police board, also a councillor. Um, can you point to a single

866
02:20:52,039 --> 02:20:55,479
single item in 4 years of budget negotiation where publicly the board did not

867
02:20:55,979 --> 02:20:59,374
allow what the chief was asking for to be passed? Because from my

868
02:20:59,423 --> 02:21:02,797
recollection, and I've reviewed them this weekend, there isn't

869
02:21:03,297 --> 02:21:07,140
one. And further, Councillor Buro, I'd be interested to understand why the past

870
02:21:07,640 --> 02:21:11,532
3 budget meetings you've moved that the police budget be adopted

871
02:21:12,032 --> 02:21:14,887
with zero debate by this council. So,

872
02:21:16,911 --> 02:21:20,098
I don't think that is, that is true. Um, not only

873
02:21:20,114 --> 02:21:23,609
have, have we asked repeatedly to present

874
02:21:24,109 --> 02:21:27,205
to the, to this council, is for the police, um,

875
02:21:28,128 --> 02:21:31,856
we practically had to, to beg in order to even come and present to

876
02:21:32,356 --> 02:21:36,015
this council. Um, there has been, off the top of my head, there has

877
02:21:36,128 --> 02:21:39,749
been, um, last year was

878
02:21:39,782 --> 02:21:43,024
supposed to be a 14.5% But like this year,

879
02:21:43,554 --> 02:21:48,760
and which I totally get, to bring that to council, which I said

880
02:21:48,792 --> 02:21:51,957
this in the board meeting, I can't bring this to council, is too high,

881
02:21:52,809 --> 02:21:56,408
not realizing the effect that it would have kicking it down the

882
02:21:56,908 --> 02:22:00,843
road. And what we have been doing is with the capital projects,

883
02:22:00,987 --> 02:22:04,136
not charging the taxpayer or putting

884
02:22:04,201 --> 02:22:09,632
it on the tax levy for since 2012. There's been many different

885
02:22:09,896 --> 02:22:13,295
many different ways that we've tried to save the taxpayers money and

886
02:22:13,311 --> 02:22:15,787
use the business center revenue to do that.

887
02:22:17,819 --> 02:22:21,670
This is what happens when we kick it down the can, and we've done

888
02:22:22,170 --> 02:22:25,810
this. We've done this in council. We've done just like the consultant that came in

889
02:22:26,310 --> 02:22:30,379
and said, with politicians coming in having low, low tax rates,

890
02:22:30,872 --> 02:22:34,843
that it actually hurts the infrastructure. It hurts our

891
02:22:35,149 --> 02:22:39,000
economy because we're not actually doing what we should be doing. Doing and setting

892
02:22:39,500 --> 02:22:42,880
it properly. And this, this year is where

893
02:22:43,380 --> 02:22:47,000
we do that. This is the time where we take all the mistakes that

894
02:22:47,500 --> 02:22:50,500
have been made and we fix that. And that's what this budget is.

895
02:22:50,580 --> 02:22:54,420
There's no frills, there's no anything else. We need to meet

896
02:22:54,920 --> 02:22:58,740
adequate and effective policing, and we have to,

897
02:22:59,240 --> 02:23:02,540
um, serve and protect the public. And that's what— and

898
02:23:03,040 --> 02:23:06,400
that's what this budget is doing. So I just want to make sure I'm understanding,

899
02:23:06,580 --> 02:23:10,110
Councilor Beer. I appreciate the opportunity, and I I appreciate your point. So your belief

900
02:23:10,610 --> 02:23:14,036
is that the average taxpayer in Cobourg should pay

901
02:23:14,901 --> 02:23:19,276
up to 6.7% on their levy because of

902
02:23:19,308 --> 02:23:22,833
the mistakes the board has made in the past, and that they

903
02:23:22,897 --> 02:23:26,198
think this year that everyone should just pony up. Oh,

904
02:23:26,663 --> 02:23:30,589
sorry. Sorry, is that fair that your suggestion is that this is

905
02:23:30,605 --> 02:23:32,784
the year that, you know, as I said,

906
02:23:33,169 --> 02:23:36,438
9.87 million, the board has used from

907
02:23:36,938 --> 02:23:40,300
the business service unit for the last 4 years, uh,

908
02:23:40,765 --> 02:23:43,634
for a variety of purposes. I'm looking at it right now and they seem very

909
02:23:43,891 --> 02:23:47,385
reasonable. And your suggestion is that this year, when,

910
02:23:47,818 --> 02:23:51,247
uh, this council is proposing to move an additional million,

911
02:23:51,264 --> 02:23:55,287
that that's the problem, and that we're not going to look at the $9.87 million

912
02:23:55,787 --> 02:23:59,983
that have come out in the last 4 years? Yes, the— and it's— I

913
02:23:59,999 --> 02:24:03,605
wouldn't say it was a mistake every year, it was pushing it down

914
02:24:04,105 --> 02:24:07,715
the line line, uh, trying to save the taxpayers money. And that's,

915
02:24:07,811 --> 02:24:11,264
and that's exactly the same with this budget. Fair enough.

916
02:24:11,344 --> 02:24:13,913
So if I just, yeah, I just want to go point by point, if that's

917
02:24:14,413 --> 02:24:16,868
okay. I don't mean to be rude, I'm just trying to understand, because, uh,

918
02:24:17,044 --> 02:24:20,352
it's been 3 years where I've been pushing for the Cobourg Police

919
02:24:20,465 --> 02:24:24,254
to raise their asks every year. So again, I'm trying to understand

920
02:24:24,754 --> 02:24:28,349
now, Mr. Buro, again, sometimes I'm not leading enough,

921
02:24:28,991 --> 02:24:31,689
and then other times when I do lead, I'm ignored. So I'm just trying to

922
02:24:31,705 --> 02:24:34,756
understand here, after 3 years of asking every single time.

923
02:24:35,252 --> 02:24:38,634
Are you sure this is enough? Police forces across the province need more money.

924
02:24:38,762 --> 02:24:41,822
Are you sure this is enough? And every year I'm told that this is enough,

925
02:24:41,838 --> 02:24:45,556
this is enough. Now what I'm hearing is that for 3 years I, I was

926
02:24:45,652 --> 02:24:48,360
right that we needed to be asking for more. But again,

927
02:24:49,658 --> 02:24:53,825
3 years ago we weren't in the largest and

928
02:24:53,905 --> 02:24:57,494
most difficult cost of living increases in a generation.

929
02:24:58,103 --> 02:25:01,424
So timing is everything, Mr. Bureau. And you're right, this It does

930
02:25:01,440 --> 02:25:04,493
move it down the line, but it moves it down to a line, hopefully to

931
02:25:04,751 --> 02:25:08,417
a board that is going to be willing to actually push

932
02:25:08,482 --> 02:25:12,411
back on Chief and staff's requests to,

933
02:25:13,071 --> 02:25:16,529
again, of one item, just one item during the budget process

934
02:25:17,029 --> 02:25:20,607
that was not allowed would be really great. Instead, what I'm seeing is $9.8

935
02:25:21,107 --> 02:25:23,926
million out of our business unit over 4 years and all those requests granted.

936
02:25:24,409 --> 02:25:27,913
And here we are 4 years later under the first of the mayor's budget,

937
02:25:28,155 --> 02:25:31,910
and now there's a 20.5% ask on the dollar. So again,

938
02:25:32,571 --> 02:25:35,618
we'll just assume bad timing, but again, I don't think it's fair to be going

939
02:25:35,650 --> 02:25:39,245
to the average taxpayer to make up for the mistakes of the Police Service Board.

940
02:25:41,939 --> 02:25:47,816
I don't think it would— I would call it as mistakes as— no,

941
02:25:48,283 --> 02:25:51,636
maybe it was. I'm just going with the chief's words. What I'm saying

942
02:25:51,832 --> 02:25:56,051
is that this is the year of fixing putting

943
02:25:56,083 --> 02:25:59,579
the tax— if— let me ask Roger this. Sorry, Mr.

944
02:25:59,627 --> 02:26:03,414
Ramkins. If we do the 20.5% now,

945
02:26:05,250 --> 02:26:09,009
what would it be next year? Approximately around 4% in

946
02:26:09,057 --> 02:26:12,640
2027, assuming the funding

947
02:26:12,736 --> 02:26:16,694
formula that we have adopted from the transfers for the business center revenues remain

948
02:26:17,194 --> 02:26:21,768
the same. Correct. And what was the point of the MOU MOU between

949
02:26:22,268 --> 02:26:26,351
the town and, and the police board to use

950
02:26:26,851 --> 02:26:30,774
the surplus dollars from the, from the net revenues from the business and a specific

951
02:26:30,838 --> 02:26:34,411
purpose, um, and to ensure that the spending

952
02:26:34,507 --> 02:26:38,017
aligns to what was directed in the MOU, right? And also,

953
02:26:38,129 --> 02:26:42,023
I just want to ask again, with the added new officers,

954
02:26:42,535 --> 02:26:47,512
was it not the will of this council that We

955
02:26:48,012 --> 02:26:52,119
do downtown patrols. We have an extra officer

956
02:26:52,619 --> 02:26:55,947
that goes into when we had the encampment, um,

957
02:26:56,624 --> 02:27:00,674
and people off sick and on WSIB. Was the

958
02:27:01,174 --> 02:27:04,985
6 adequate, or would it have been— actually, should we have had 8,

959
02:27:05,180 --> 02:27:07,383
9, or 10 onto that?

960
02:27:09,004 --> 02:27:12,578
The 6 was able to allow us to meet adequate effective.

961
02:27:13,912 --> 02:27:18,571
So it's the minimum standard? I would say so, correct. The minimum standard

962
02:27:19,071 --> 02:27:22,362
is in this, in this,

963
02:27:22,748 --> 02:27:24,162
um, budget.

964
02:27:26,461 --> 02:27:29,739
Is this not the minimum standard of adequate

965
02:27:30,239 --> 02:27:30,688
and effective policing?

966
02:27:38,332 --> 02:27:41,521
Sorry, I'm not in a position to define what adequate and effective— I think the

967
02:27:42,021 --> 02:27:45,430
chief did a fantastic job at that last week at council defining what it is.

968
02:27:45,767 --> 02:27:49,035
Um, it is always nice for us to have

969
02:27:49,051 --> 02:27:52,160
more, so if somebody calls in sick and somebody goes off on WSOP, we have

970
02:27:52,192 --> 02:27:55,412
that buffer. At this point in time, based on the contractual

971
02:27:55,912 --> 02:27:59,161
obligations on our staffing complement, there is no opportunity for buffer.

972
02:27:59,242 --> 02:28:02,991
The details were provided to the finance committee well before

973
02:28:03,491 --> 02:28:06,516
in terms of staffing. They know their numbers, so this is what meets.

974
02:28:07,158 --> 02:28:09,871
I don't— I can't say that it exceeds it because again,

975
02:28:10,786 --> 02:28:13,820
we don't have those extra staffing. Thank you, I think that's good. We're gonna have

976
02:28:14,320 --> 02:28:16,806
the Chief right up, so that's a great question. And I think that's exactly the

977
02:28:17,306 --> 02:28:20,178
reason why the budget's been approved in its entirety, because of that presentation by the

978
02:28:20,678 --> 02:28:24,175
Chief. The 20.5 is going through so that we can have those officers. And to

979
02:28:24,675 --> 02:28:28,606
your point, Mr. Cease— sorry, uh, to your point, sir, um, we here

980
02:28:29,106 --> 02:28:32,908
in the Town of Cobourg have no longer played the game of hiring

981
02:28:33,165 --> 02:28:36,471
and manipulating numbers. I think this is a good

982
02:28:36,971 --> 02:28:39,682
idea moving forward with the police service, but I'm not on the board. And that's—

983
02:28:40,182 --> 02:28:42,972
we actually have a rule now here at this level that if you're going to

984
02:28:43,472 --> 02:28:46,455
hire anyone in the following year, it doesn't matter when you're going to hire them.

985
02:28:46,519 --> 02:28:50,243
Instead, you take the entire cost of that position and include it

986
02:28:50,355 --> 02:28:54,255
in the next year's budget. Any cost savings then go into a reserve

987
02:28:54,945 --> 02:28:58,461
for staff contingency issues. And we have to use contractors between.

988
02:28:59,086 --> 02:29:02,420
I highly recommend that the board look to that. It's one of the better practices.,

989
02:29:02,920 --> 02:29:06,640
and it ensures that the situation we're in today doesn't happen moving forward. I've got

990
02:29:07,140 --> 02:29:10,060
a question here from Councillor Darling, then one from Councillor Mouton. And did I see

991
02:29:10,560 --> 02:29:13,940
your hand, Mr. Barber? Okay, we'll start with— we'll start with Councillor Darling.

992
02:29:14,460 --> 02:29:17,580
Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Thank you, Mr. Remskin.

993
02:29:18,080 --> 02:29:21,800
I guess my question is, what do the numbers look like if it's a 50/50

994
02:29:22,300 --> 02:29:26,140
split, if half comes out of the reserves and half goes

995
02:29:26,640 --> 02:29:29,346
on the tax base? So as of the end of 2022, 2024,

996
02:29:30,503 --> 02:29:34,536
our reserves balance across all 4 accounts is just about $1.6

997
02:29:35,036 --> 02:29:38,279
million. As of right now, the direction under

998
02:29:38,295 --> 02:29:41,284
SMP was to deplete the other 3,

999
02:29:41,926 --> 02:29:45,381
with the exception of the building reserves, which will leave with $478

1000
02:29:45,881 --> 02:29:49,542
million in that account. It means if you were to do a 50/50 split,

1001
02:29:50,201 --> 02:29:53,093
we'll be doing $800,000 per se.

1002
02:29:53,639 --> 02:29:57,367
It means that that difference, which is about $212,000

1003
02:29:57,383 --> 02:30:00,619
will be on the levy. 212 divided 80, uh,

1004
02:30:00,700 --> 02:30:02,043
it'll be about an additional 5%.

1005
02:30:02,221 --> 02:30:06,027
Thank you. Councilor Matan.

1006
02:30:09,344 --> 02:30:12,806
Yes, a question of clarification with regards to court services and

1007
02:30:13,306 --> 02:30:17,029
court administration. Um, uh, would you be able to,

1008
02:30:17,560 --> 02:30:21,225
um, identify— does the service

1009
02:30:21,515 --> 02:30:25,015
receive any funding funding and how much, uh,

1010
02:30:25,663 --> 02:30:29,499
to, uh, towards the cost of the service,

1011
02:30:29,709 --> 02:30:31,555
court services and court administration?

1012
02:30:33,428 --> 02:30:37,486
So just to clarify, we do get funding from two parts

1013
02:30:37,551 --> 02:30:41,264
of funding for court security only. Court security

1014
02:30:41,441 --> 02:30:45,854
is the task associated with manning the courthouse at 860 Williams Street only.

1015
02:30:47,014 --> 02:30:50,479
We do get a part of funding from the province directly to

1016
02:30:50,979 --> 02:30:54,892
the Town of Cobourg for 2025. That's about $125,000. Then We

1017
02:30:54,973 --> 02:31:00,003
get about $553,000

1018
02:31:00,503 --> 02:31:04,112
from the provincial CSPT grant, of which the provincial

1019
02:31:04,612 --> 02:31:08,117
part is $125 million. Cobourg gets half a million dollars

1020
02:31:08,166 --> 02:31:11,752
from that part. That part has not changed in about 15 years. And then

1021
02:31:11,817 --> 02:31:15,753
the difference up to $275,000

1022
02:31:15,769 --> 02:31:20,188
is funded directly through Northumberland County. So we do get 3

1023
02:31:20,269 --> 02:31:24,400
distinct pieces that comprises the revenue offset

1024
02:31:24,900 --> 02:31:28,731
for the court security bill. That does not— we do— I'm

1025
02:31:29,231 --> 02:31:32,343
confirming we do not get dollars from any source for court administration.

1026
02:31:32,940 --> 02:31:36,817
That's strictly the back-end, back-office function of Crown

1027
02:31:37,317 --> 02:31:40,533
Briefs, and, and that, as the Chief explained two weeks ago. Follow-up?

1028
02:31:41,987 --> 02:31:45,558
Yes, so I just wanted to confirm the numbers that are in the budget

1029
02:31:47,258 --> 02:31:50,694
are separate from those

1030
02:31:51,224 --> 02:31:55,319
sources of funding, or including the sources of funding? It is included

1031
02:31:55,819 --> 02:31:58,931
as part of the recoveries and as part of the revenue sources. So the budget

1032
02:31:59,431 --> 02:32:03,218
is about $14 million. I proposed about $9.2

1033
02:32:03,475 --> 02:32:07,329
odd from the levy, which brought it at $20.5. The difference

1034
02:32:07,829 --> 02:32:10,155
comes from the different sources, and that has been included in the number.

1035
02:32:15,680 --> 02:32:19,101
While we're waiting for a follow-up, do you happen to know what the

1036
02:32:19,711 --> 02:32:23,486
budget— sorry, the reserve total was at the beginning of 2025 and

1037
02:32:23,986 --> 02:32:27,502
what the reserve total was at the end of 2025? So we're starting 2025

1038
02:32:28,002 --> 02:32:31,100
with $1.6 million. We did reconcile 2024.

1039
02:32:32,144 --> 02:32:35,822
Because we haven't closed 2025 yet, I couldn't comment on

1040
02:32:35,935 --> 02:32:39,110
what the number is going to look like at the end of this

1041
02:32:39,610 --> 02:32:43,270
month. We would not do that until the first quarter of 2025,

1042
02:32:43,910 --> 02:32:47,230
or a little bit later depending on when we close the book— sorry, 2026,

1043
02:32:47,730 --> 02:32:50,770
thank you— until we close the books for 2025. So I just want to

1044
02:32:51,270 --> 02:32:54,470
confirm, when was that sort of readjustment? Because I remember looking at some documents

1045
02:32:54,970 --> 02:32:58,330
that had the beginning at 2.6, and I'm just wondering, when did we reconcile that?

1046
02:32:58,830 --> 02:33:01,030
So we reconcile— I reconcile that with the town, Mr. Giddings,

1047
02:33:01,530 --> 02:33:04,690
annually. Uh, so we— the board has been provided with

1048
02:33:05,190 --> 02:33:07,710
a reconciliation of the reserves for the last 5 years, how we started, where we've

1049
02:33:08,210 --> 02:33:11,700
come down from and in numbers for 2023

1050
02:33:12,200 --> 02:33:16,180
and into 2024. I'm just— I'm a little confused because I

1051
02:33:16,680 --> 02:33:19,180
was going to ask questions that in the beginning of 2025,

1052
02:33:19,760 --> 02:33:23,300
I was under the impression we had $2.45 million

1053
02:33:23,800 --> 02:33:27,480
in the— or $2.6 million in reserves, and I was wondering where it had

1054
02:33:27,980 --> 02:33:30,150
gone. And you're saying that that has been reconciled recently?

1055
02:33:31,480 --> 02:33:34,880
Yeah, at the beginning of 2025, sir. What was our reserve balance at

1056
02:33:35,380 --> 02:33:38,100
the beginning of this year? At the end of 2024, which will be the beginning

1057
02:33:38,600 --> 02:33:39,160
of 2025, it's $1.6 million.

1058
02:33:41,780 --> 02:33:45,414
$1.6 million. Okay, $1.6 million. And what was the reserves

1059
02:33:45,914 --> 02:33:50,454
at the beginning of 2024? Ah, one second.

1060
02:33:50,535 --> 02:33:53,035
That's the one. Thank you. So I got my years wrong. So I guess my

1061
02:33:53,535 --> 02:33:57,012
question then, um, the reserves in 2024

1062
02:33:57,543 --> 02:34:00,956
were $2.5 million, and then at the end of 2024 was $1.6

1063
02:34:00,973 --> 02:34:04,306
million. So what I'm seeing is we're already using reserves on a

1064
02:34:04,323 --> 02:34:07,706
regular basis, uh, from the CPS. Is that a fair statement?

1065
02:34:08,894 --> 02:34:12,234
Thank you, Mr. Mayor, for that question. And if, um, and this, this has not

1066
02:34:12,282 --> 02:34:16,264
been discussed, so I'm just going to take the opportunity to probably just respond

1067
02:34:16,376 --> 02:34:20,198
inasmuch as the question has been asked. What has happened historically—

1068
02:34:21,033 --> 02:34:23,249
let me just back up— what has happened within the last couple of years is

1069
02:34:23,281 --> 02:34:27,199
that we get a part of funding from the levy, which is a portion of

1070
02:34:27,699 --> 02:34:30,940
the dollars from the overall budget of the police service.

1071
02:34:30,988 --> 02:34:35,409
So for example, For the last couple of years, we've been funded around 70%

1072
02:34:36,265 --> 02:34:39,802
of the total budget from the levy. The difference of that 30% is

1073
02:34:41,692 --> 02:34:45,609
funded through the court security grant, grants that we apply for CSP,

1074
02:34:45,803 --> 02:34:50,077
um, RIDE, and those things. So that 30% of that overall

1075
02:34:50,109 --> 02:34:54,008
budget comes from those different sources of funding.

1076
02:34:54,073 --> 02:34:57,616
What has happened within the last couple of years, and is that

1077
02:34:57,697 --> 02:35:01,552
any excess excess of funding or spending outside

1078
02:35:01,616 --> 02:35:06,578
of the funding that we get from the levy automatically gets charged

1079
02:35:06,787 --> 02:35:10,367
to the net revenues from the business center. And that

1080
02:35:10,867 --> 02:35:14,285
is what has happened over the last couple of years. Um, that is,

1081
02:35:14,622 --> 02:35:17,898
um, where we are right now. The Police Services

1082
02:35:17,930 --> 02:35:21,591
Board has not had a chance to look at some of those excesses to 2025,

1083
02:35:22,345 --> 02:35:25,381
but that is what has happened over the last couple of years. And is it

1084
02:35:25,397 --> 02:35:28,015
fair to say that the reason the MOU has been being pushed by the Town

1085
02:35:28,063 --> 02:35:31,742
of Cobourg staff is because that's not actually appropriate

1086
02:35:32,242 --> 02:35:35,179
practice to be operating that way, and instead it's just the way it's always existed,

1087
02:35:35,195 --> 02:35:38,408
but now we're trying to move to a more appropriate way of

1088
02:35:38,908 --> 02:35:42,119
accounting under the Municipal Act? Is that a fair statement? It will be fairly fair.

1089
02:35:42,328 --> 02:35:45,540
I would say it's fair. So we're coming in line now with actual

1090
02:35:46,040 --> 02:35:49,395
municipal law. So that's good to hear. I guess at this point,

1091
02:35:49,813 --> 02:35:53,458
the nice thing is, sir, is that the reality is is this budget can be—

1092
02:35:53,490 --> 02:35:55,641
we've got a motion on the floor to go back and to add it to

1093
02:35:55,673 --> 02:35:58,593
the levy. So if this council wants to do that, then that'll be the,

1094
02:35:58,642 --> 02:36:02,076
uh, the procedure forward. And I do appreciate the work because I know you've been

1095
02:36:02,576 --> 02:36:04,660
working a lot, uh, Mr. Giddings, and you've been going back and forth, and I

1096
02:36:05,160 --> 02:36:07,308
do appreciate all the time and effort. At this time, I'd like to invite the

1097
02:36:07,808 --> 02:36:11,272
chief forward, I assume, if there's no other questions. Or nope, come on forward,

1098
02:36:11,304 --> 02:36:14,577
Mr. Uh, Vender— Chief Vandergraaff. I'm trying to always use the titles,

1099
02:36:14,626 --> 02:36:17,964
as Mr. Darling— Councillor Darling wants me to use the titles all the

1100
02:36:18,464 --> 02:36:21,727
time, so I'm working I'm working on it, guys. Give me—

1101
02:36:22,051 --> 02:36:25,068
bad habit dies hard. We're working on it. Welcome, Chief.

1102
02:36:29,512 --> 02:36:32,894
Good afternoon. My intent here today is to answer any questions

1103
02:36:33,394 --> 02:36:35,784
that you may or may have, but I think Roger's done a fair amount of

1104
02:36:35,946 --> 02:36:39,328
the, uh, of the heavy lifting. The question's been

1105
02:36:39,344 --> 02:36:42,224
asked and not, not duly answered about what, um,

1106
02:36:42,596 --> 02:36:47,096
when I've been told no. So let me be really clear

1107
02:36:47,596 --> 02:36:50,185
clear. As I present the police budget, it is not my budget.

1108
02:36:50,980 --> 02:36:54,852
It is clearly stated within the CSPA whose budget it is. It is the board's

1109
02:36:54,868 --> 02:36:58,211
budget. It has been the course and the record and the history in

1110
02:36:58,243 --> 02:37:02,025
this municipality that the chief presents the nuances of the

1111
02:37:02,106 --> 02:37:06,022
actual board's budget, generally preceded by comments

1112
02:37:06,522 --> 02:37:09,375
of the chair. Don't know what the inference is that this is the police chief's

1113
02:37:09,553 --> 02:37:12,841
budget. It is not. It is the board's budget.

1114
02:37:12,889 --> 02:37:16,958
The question was asked, when have I been told no? Chair Kerr,

1115
02:37:17,184 --> 02:37:20,139
past Chair Kerr sat right there in one of our meetings. I can't remember which

1116
02:37:20,268 --> 02:37:23,728
money. There's been so many and said that this is the first year he's

1117
02:37:23,744 --> 02:37:27,377
never been able to kick my ass to the curb, pardon my French,

1118
02:37:28,812 --> 02:37:32,562
and say no to something. So you wanted exact

1119
02:37:33,062 --> 02:37:36,070
examples prior to this, just as this term of council began,

1120
02:37:36,588 --> 02:37:39,600
the decision of the municipality was to move to body-worn cameras. Cameras.

1121
02:37:40,178 --> 02:37:43,226
We were one of the first in Ontario to move to this very expensive body-worn

1122
02:37:43,726 --> 02:37:47,766
camera project, and the decision was made by then-member or Vice Chair Kerr that

1123
02:37:47,959 --> 02:37:51,488
if we were to proceed with this project, which then began— the

1124
02:37:51,988 --> 02:37:56,574
project began in earnest with this term of council in place— that all dollars

1125
02:37:57,074 --> 02:38:00,746
associated to that project, both capital dollars, infrastructure dollars, and ongoing

1126
02:38:01,246 --> 02:38:04,741
staff dollars, be borne by the, uh, Business Centre or the Corporate

1127
02:38:05,241 --> 02:38:08,397
Services services. So that was a time where I asked for body-worn cameras,

1128
02:38:08,573 --> 02:38:12,101
and I was told, yes, kind of, but you fund

1129
02:38:12,601 --> 02:38:16,367
it this way. Secondly, in 2024, I asked for 8

1130
02:38:16,867 --> 02:38:20,247
constables. Um, Your Worship, you'll recall you knew

1131
02:38:20,375 --> 02:38:24,128
that, uh, ask was made, and, and at the board meeting, the board

1132
02:38:24,628 --> 02:38:28,505
of the day did not approve that ask, and they sent

1133
02:38:28,954 --> 02:38:32,322
me back with lesser than, but we appreciated

1134
02:38:32,822 --> 02:38:37,122
it. Putting that in full context, this board was the first board in Ontario

1135
02:38:37,620 --> 02:38:40,766
to pass a supplemental staffing model that supported

1136
02:38:41,266 --> 02:38:44,667
our members across Ontario since 2016. As this council

1137
02:38:45,167 --> 02:38:48,922
has heard many times, we have understood a new reality

1138
02:38:49,018 --> 02:38:52,775
around occupational stress injuries. So this

1139
02:38:52,791 --> 02:38:56,419
board did allow for me to take a lead, took a lead, and then I

1140
02:38:56,919 --> 02:39:00,754
needed to increase the complement, not just replace. But increase the complement to

1141
02:39:01,254 --> 02:39:05,089
meet the, the competing demands. The board said no. The board

1142
02:39:05,589 --> 02:39:08,927
said no because they felt that we could do it more

1143
02:39:09,427 --> 02:39:13,326
incrementally. I went back last year and said, yes, I still need

1144
02:39:13,826 --> 02:39:17,308
those officers. And I said here in this room, and I've said before,

1145
02:39:17,902 --> 02:39:20,856
we agreed on a staggered start. I wanted them all in January.

1146
02:39:21,194 --> 02:39:24,838
I wanted those officers all trained in January. The board

1147
02:39:25,338 --> 02:39:26,942
said no. They said, we're going to stagger them. We're going to do them in

1148
02:39:26,990 --> 02:39:30,853
June and September. And that's fine. And I don't disagree with Your Worship

1149
02:39:30,917 --> 02:39:34,410
and your comments that when we choose to hire staff, we should put them

1150
02:39:34,442 --> 02:39:37,792
in for the entire year. And it would give me a bit of elbow

1151
02:39:38,292 --> 02:39:41,814
room as chief to recognizing the full cost of this, and you don't see

1152
02:39:42,314 --> 02:39:46,285
the increase. So I want to start by thanking the

1153
02:39:46,785 --> 02:39:50,836
recognition that 20.5% is the natural increase. This is the correction budget.

1154
02:39:50,884 --> 02:39:53,961
There is nothing new in this budget. Um, as I'm

1155
02:39:54,058 --> 02:39:57,360
thanking you, I will also indicate I'm highly

1156
02:39:57,860 --> 02:40:01,608
offended that the next chief and the next board is going to find a bunch

1157
02:40:02,108 --> 02:40:05,856
of money because it is pretty clear where

1158
02:40:06,356 --> 02:40:10,425
our money goes. So the new chief will have a new agenda,

1159
02:40:10,745 --> 02:40:13,775
the new board will have a new partner in the new chief.

1160
02:40:14,015 --> 02:40:16,901
God knows what the future looks like if he saves you or she saves you

1161
02:40:17,401 --> 02:40:19,209
millions of dollars. Congratulations.

1162
02:40:22,301 --> 02:40:26,775
My concern and my comments are this: we

1163
02:40:26,904 --> 02:40:30,490
are— and I have said it was a mistake of the board to kick this

1164
02:40:30,554 --> 02:40:33,901
down the road for $700,000. I have said

1165
02:40:33,933 --> 02:40:37,276
that 20.5% is a big number and it is

1166
02:40:38,015 --> 02:40:40,734
unpalatable or not palatable for many people.

1167
02:40:41,966 --> 02:40:45,896
How council chooses to manage to fund it that

1168
02:40:46,396 --> 02:40:50,363
is your decision. I have the 20.5% that my staff need to be successful,

1169
02:40:50,379 --> 02:40:54,332
and I'm appreciative for that. I'm indicating risk

1170
02:40:54,736 --> 02:40:58,150
when we push this down the road. And you've got the numbers from Roger,

1171
02:40:58,214 --> 02:41:01,514
but another 13% and whatever that next agenda looks like,

1172
02:41:02,097 --> 02:41:04,714
my concern is just purely that.

1173
02:41:06,494 --> 02:41:09,386
So this board holds me accountable.

1174
02:41:09,809 --> 02:41:14,748
Oftentimes the nos that chiefs of police in Ontario face

1175
02:41:15,248 --> 02:41:18,080
case, rest on capital projects, wishes and desires of capital projects.

1176
02:41:19,710 --> 02:41:23,155
They generally say yes to my reasonable capital requirement requests

1177
02:41:23,284 --> 02:41:26,745
because they're funded by corporate services, not by the tax levy. So that's why

1178
02:41:27,245 --> 02:41:30,348
there's this no big no or whatever that looks like. So anyways,

1179
02:41:30,527 --> 02:41:34,147
I've said enough on this budget. I don't have any more statements to make other

1180
02:41:34,647 --> 02:41:37,927
than questions to answer. I open up to the floor for members of council to

1181
02:41:37,943 --> 02:41:41,159
ask the chief directly. By all means, Councilor Charlie.

1182
02:41:41,321 --> 02:41:44,018
Thank you, Chief. Very thorough as usual. I guess, uh,

1183
02:41:45,359 --> 02:41:48,185
I could be corrected here if I'm not mistaken.

1184
02:41:49,336 --> 02:41:52,183
Um, this term of council, early in the term, uh,

1185
02:41:53,056 --> 02:41:57,483
passed a motion that we would not look at OPP or any other outside,

1186
02:41:57,933 --> 02:42:01,341
uh, interests as far as

1187
02:42:01,437 --> 02:42:05,086
policing. Um, it's too late, and it's too late

1188
02:42:05,586 --> 02:42:09,777
in the year now for our— we've had had several citizens and

1189
02:42:10,841 --> 02:42:13,597
comments asking us to take a look at an OPP costing,

1190
02:42:14,740 --> 02:42:17,486
and, uh, or maybe an amalgamation of police forces.

1191
02:42:20,031 --> 02:42:23,052
Can you just, for an overview for those listening and for this council,

1192
02:42:24,816 --> 02:42:28,884
give us a bit of an overview as to what that would look like and

1193
02:42:29,513 --> 02:42:31,660
the pluses and minuses maybe of it?

1194
02:42:32,483 --> 02:42:36,552
I'm looking at if we did

1195
02:42:37,052 --> 02:42:39,808
dual PP costing, is it gonna lessen the police service?

1196
02:42:40,193 --> 02:42:43,545
It might be less expensive, but is it gonna

1197
02:42:44,045 --> 02:42:47,603
lessen the service that our community gets now? So I'm gonna interject

1198
02:42:48,103 --> 02:42:52,110
here, Councilor Darley, and the reason I'm going to interject is twofold. One, there is

1199
02:42:52,610 --> 02:42:55,414
a fulsome report that was provided by Northumberland County that both the chief and I

1200
02:42:55,914 --> 02:42:59,071
had taken serious issue with because of the way that report was

1201
02:42:59,087 --> 02:43:02,616
conducted. So if the council members want, they can always review that too.

1202
02:43:03,098 --> 02:43:06,276
Um, I don't believe it's appropriate to be asking the Cobourg police

1203
02:43:06,388 --> 02:43:10,015
chief to be asking, uh, the pros and cons about OPP.

1204
02:43:10,882 --> 02:43:14,461
Um, it would put him in a professional inappropriate position to either,

1205
02:43:14,910 --> 02:43:18,088
uh, say negative things about the OPP or his

1206
02:43:18,120 --> 02:43:21,619
own team. I don't think that the question is appropriate personally,

1207
02:43:21,795 --> 02:43:24,524
uh, Mr. Dawning. So I'm just going to suggest that we go in a different

1208
02:43:25,024 --> 02:43:28,055
direction with questioning. Um, it's up for this council to decide, uh,

1209
02:43:28,151 --> 02:43:31,328
what they they'd like to do. And it's, I think, just, just erring

1210
02:43:31,360 --> 02:43:34,937
on the side of caution. Well, thank you. And I don't disagree

1211
02:43:35,114 --> 02:43:38,836
with what you're saying, but as the

1212
02:43:38,916 --> 02:43:42,429
citizens put a question out to us, I think the question has at least got

1213
02:43:42,929 --> 02:43:45,831
to be presented. And that's all I'm doing is presenting the question,

1214
02:43:46,360 --> 02:43:50,130
letting know that it has been asked. Maybe it's

1215
02:43:50,630 --> 02:43:54,157
going to get answered by the next council. We'll have to wait and see who

1216
02:43:54,221 --> 02:43:57,802
they And I do. Thank you. And I'll just state very

1217
02:43:57,818 --> 02:44:00,579
clearly and unequivocally, I stand by what I've always stated,

1218
02:44:00,628 --> 02:44:04,032
that the Cobourg Police Service is one of the major reasons why I chose

1219
02:44:04,532 --> 02:44:07,227
to relocate my family here, and I stand by their service and their quality.

1220
02:44:07,773 --> 02:44:11,080
And I would never entertain the

1221
02:44:11,580 --> 02:44:15,111
idea of an OPP, and I'll state that very clearly at this time. Mr.

1222
02:44:15,159 --> 02:44:18,194
Vander Graaff, I do have a quick question for you, if possible.

1223
02:44:22,654 --> 02:44:26,150
Sometimes I think I wish I had the, the power you do,

1224
02:44:26,326 --> 02:44:29,822
Mr. Vandergratje. And what I mean by that is the fealty you

1225
02:44:30,095 --> 02:44:32,869
draw from your team, the fealty you have with your board.

1226
02:44:33,286 --> 02:44:36,590
It's a, it's a remarkable state. And what I've heard is a bunch of

1227
02:44:36,894 --> 02:44:40,423
yes-buts. I didn't hear a no. And that's where I'm trying to

1228
02:44:40,503 --> 02:44:44,095
understand, um, because we're saying yes-but as well. We're saying

1229
02:44:44,191 --> 02:44:47,569
yes, we agree 20.5 is needed, but we can't load it on the

1230
02:44:48,069 --> 02:44:50,022
tax levy. We have to find a way. And I'm sorry you took offense by

1231
02:44:50,522 --> 02:44:54,306
my statements. It wasn't meant for offense. That said, intention versus impact.

1232
02:44:54,387 --> 02:44:57,081
So all this to say, Mr. Vander Graaff,

1233
02:44:58,162 --> 02:45:01,373
when we look at this and we see 20.5, and you see council approving this,

1234
02:45:01,486 --> 02:45:04,850
or looking to potentially approve the entire increase, I'm wondering

1235
02:45:06,646 --> 02:45:10,403
what can we expect in terms of service? I'm hearing from our— my

1236
02:45:10,903 --> 02:45:13,951
councillor, or the councillor here to the left of me, that this is the bare

1237
02:45:14,451 --> 02:45:18,768
minimum. And I guess my question is, is, is this 20.5% getting

1238
02:45:18,832 --> 02:45:22,139
us to a place where we actually do

1239
02:45:22,639 --> 02:45:26,346
something when we see people smoking narcotics in a vestibule

1240
02:45:26,458 --> 02:45:29,814
in the bank at 9:00 PM? Are we going

1241
02:45:30,314 --> 02:45:33,603
to get the move-alongs? Are we going to get the actual response

1242
02:45:34,103 --> 02:45:37,520
that we're looking for as a community in terms of a response that when we

1243
02:45:38,020 --> 02:45:41,774
see those kind of videos being happening. That's what I'm understanding, because I agree

1244
02:45:42,274 --> 02:45:45,288
we need the money, we need to support our frontline officers, and I don't ever

1245
02:45:45,882 --> 02:45:49,156
hold our frontline officers for account for policy decisions because

1246
02:45:49,656 --> 02:45:51,869
that's not them, it comes from the top. Thank you for being here and being

1247
02:45:52,369 --> 02:45:56,555
from the top. With $20.5 million, can we expect to see the

1248
02:45:57,055 --> 02:46:00,519
police get involved when it's very clear that, you know, individuals are

1249
02:46:00,712 --> 02:46:02,766
consuming illegal narcotics at 9 PM,

1250
02:46:03,231 --> 02:46:06,531
multiple, with clothes off, preventing our staff and from

1251
02:46:06,903 --> 02:46:10,558
our community from using those services. I'm just trying to understand what we're going to

1252
02:46:11,058 --> 02:46:19,182
be getting with the 20.5%. So I'll

1253
02:46:19,279 --> 02:46:22,352
answer the first question. Um, the no was I asked

1254
02:46:22,852 --> 02:46:25,726
for 8 officers, I got 4. That wasn't a yes but, it was a no.

1255
02:46:26,594 --> 02:46:29,570
We can rephrase it, we can play back and forth about yes buts or nos.

1256
02:46:29,688 --> 02:46:32,245
It was a no. Secondly,

1257
02:46:32,919 --> 02:46:35,954
in relation to what the people, what our officers do or don't do,

1258
02:46:36,692 --> 02:46:39,197
I'm going to simply answer that,

1259
02:46:39,904 --> 02:46:43,083
that I hear often,

1260
02:46:43,918 --> 02:46:47,338
you're never on foot patrol. And my initial response always, well, it's funny

1261
02:46:47,838 --> 02:46:49,618
because when we were on there, we didn't see you either.

1262
02:46:50,886 --> 02:46:55,061
So, um, the officers do a tremendous job to

1263
02:46:55,561 --> 02:46:59,040
do and meet the needs However, when we are

1264
02:46:59,232 --> 02:47:03,161
faced with questions around provincial acts that may or may not

1265
02:47:03,661 --> 02:47:06,913
have the teeth, and we can debate that, um,

1266
02:47:07,089 --> 02:47:11,195
what we can and can't do, the issue of chronic displacement around

1267
02:47:11,695 --> 02:47:15,653
homelessness and addictions is just that, is a zero-end

1268
02:47:15,925 --> 02:47:19,228
game. So we will continue to do great work.

1269
02:47:19,309 --> 02:47:25,001
Our officers will continue to arrest those accountable

1270
02:47:25,501 --> 02:47:28,352
accountable. My letter to the media on the weekend was, if we put ourselves back

1271
02:47:28,852 --> 02:47:32,040
into a bare minimum circumstance where all we can do is show up and

1272
02:47:32,540 --> 02:47:35,407
get enough people to come to work, then we're not going to do the added

1273
02:47:35,907 --> 02:47:40,426
crime abatement strategies. I am so impressed because of the board's commitment. It takes 16

1274
02:47:40,522 --> 02:47:44,611
months for me to hire someone and have them out as an independent

1275
02:47:45,111 --> 02:47:48,074
officer on patrol, and I love the fact that it takes 16 months because that

1276
02:47:48,574 --> 02:47:51,730
means I have the right person making critical life decisions around someone's charter of

1277
02:47:52,066 --> 02:47:55,415
freedom and rights. At the end of the day, my guys and girls

1278
02:47:55,447 --> 02:47:59,021
do a great job. We're not everywhere, we can't be everywhere at all times.

1279
02:47:59,758 --> 02:48:03,459
If they were there downtown Monday to Friday, 8 to 4, then at 4:05

1280
02:48:03,524 --> 02:48:06,104
we would not be there. So we do the best we can with what we

1281
02:48:06,604 --> 02:48:10,029
have. The 20.5% is a correction budget recognizing you've hired 6

1282
02:48:10,529 --> 02:48:13,827
new officers, and I'm appreciative of it, hired 4 more. When I became

1283
02:48:13,875 --> 02:48:17,545
chief, I had 32 officers, we have 51. We are finally right

1284
02:48:17,737 --> 02:48:21,109
side prioritized. Thank you, Chief. I agree. And, uh,

1285
02:48:21,287 --> 02:48:23,825
if we go back to that time when we were talking the 68 officers,

1286
02:48:24,262 --> 02:48:27,302
I believe you and I were in agreement that we wanted the full 68 officers,

1287
02:48:27,658 --> 02:48:30,622
and you and I from the get were in alignment that we need more good

1288
02:48:31,122 --> 02:48:35,082
officers like the ones we have. Give me 30%, we'll hire 4 more. The association

1289
02:48:35,582 --> 02:48:38,584
sitting beside, it's my evaluation time, so they may have something to say. Thank you,

1290
02:48:38,600 --> 02:48:41,682
Chief. And I do appreciate that. Again, these discussions at a

1291
02:48:42,182 --> 02:48:44,799
high level about finance have nothing to do with our frontline officers nor the job

1292
02:48:45,299 --> 02:48:48,106
they do. Councillor Darlan. Yes, just a follow-up,

1293
02:48:48,427 --> 02:48:51,638
just to the mayor's comment about yourself not supporting OPP.

1294
02:48:52,280 --> 02:48:55,683
I want to make it clear to the public that I'm asking the question.

1295
02:48:55,795 --> 02:48:59,102
I'm not saying one way or the other what I support or what I don't

1296
02:48:59,602 --> 02:49:05,025
support. I don't feel this is the appropriate time, but I think

1297
02:49:05,041 --> 02:49:09,263
it's appropriate that I speak to— just

1298
02:49:09,763 --> 02:49:11,205
sorry, just push your mic so that the public see it, sir.

1299
02:49:13,307 --> 02:49:17,191
I've said it 100 times, I'll never stand in front of anywhere

1300
02:49:17,640 --> 02:49:21,459
and say that the OPP isn't a great police organization. They're a fantastic organization

1301
02:49:21,892 --> 02:49:25,711
led by great people, full stop. The policing—

1302
02:49:25,807 --> 02:49:29,081
the choice of a municipality to have a local police service or the OPP is

1303
02:49:29,177 --> 02:49:32,306
a local choice. There are communities such as Deep River,

1304
02:49:32,948 --> 02:49:36,654
Elmer, Ontario, very small towns with very small police services, and they're content

1305
02:49:37,154 --> 02:49:40,290
and very happy to have them, and they're satisfied with the service delivery.

1306
02:49:40,790 --> 02:49:44,010
Equally, there are communities like Orillia and Napanee and other communities who

1307
02:49:44,510 --> 02:49:47,630
would love the fact that they have an OPP Detached Commander. The model that we've

1308
02:49:48,130 --> 02:49:51,510
delivered traditionally in Cobourg since I've been here will be different with the OPP.

1309
02:49:52,010 --> 02:49:53,590
Not saying it's going to be worse, not going to say it's better, but it's

1310
02:49:54,090 --> 02:49:54,770
going to be wholly different.

1311
02:49:57,990 --> 02:50:01,290
Thank you. Thank you. Sorry, thank you, Chief. Thank you. Follow up, because that's,

1312
02:50:01,790 --> 02:50:04,290
uh, I mean, the public has to hear these things, and, and that's all I'm

1313
02:50:04,790 --> 02:50:08,090
bringing up. I love our Cobourg Police Service. I've supported it all along,

1314
02:50:09,816 --> 02:50:12,623
Will it change? It may or may not, but the public has to hear the

1315
02:50:13,123 --> 02:50:15,768
comments. Thank you. Thank you. And I'm just gonna go to Councillor Bureau, and I

1316
02:50:16,268 --> 02:50:19,394
see Deputy Mayor. I will add to the Chief's comments, and that is, if anyone

1317
02:50:19,442 --> 02:50:22,843
wants to look at the OPP costing, I actually would recommend that you

1318
02:50:22,971 --> 02:50:26,902
look at the first 3 years of costing and then the following 3

1319
02:50:27,402 --> 02:50:30,736
years of costing to get an average, and not going by what

1320
02:50:31,236 --> 02:50:35,078
they cost for the first 3 years, because it's obviously an estimate. Estimate and

1321
02:50:35,095 --> 02:50:38,605
then the reality. And I'd look to any forces who have switched OPP in the

1322
02:50:39,105 --> 02:50:43,485
last 10 years, as I have, and to compare what they quote versus

1323
02:50:43,517 --> 02:50:46,416
what the actual cost is in year 5. Councillor Buro,

1324
02:50:46,432 --> 02:50:48,391
then I recognize Deputy Mayor after Councillor Buro.

1325
02:50:49,850 --> 02:50:53,112
Yeah, um, I guess

1326
02:50:53,642 --> 02:50:56,503
my question is twofold, so bear with me. Um,

1327
02:50:57,097 --> 02:51:00,620
with the new population of Cobourg that's growing year after year,

1328
02:51:01,879 --> 02:51:05,057
Thanks to our planning department and moving things along.

1329
02:51:05,891 --> 02:51:11,043
Um, when I first started on council, I think we were at 6,900

1330
02:51:11,543 --> 02:51:14,943
and something homes. We're almost at, as the mayor said, we're almost at

1331
02:51:14,975 --> 02:51:18,908
10,000. So, and in the future, that, as we

1332
02:51:19,408 --> 02:51:23,241
know, there's more developments going on and on and on. So my

1333
02:51:23,741 --> 02:51:28,413
question is, depleting the reserves are down to $400-something

1334
02:51:28,589 --> 02:51:31,755
thousand, no capital projects

1335
02:51:31,900 --> 02:51:35,195
for the next year or two, and with

1336
02:51:35,695 --> 02:51:38,051
the population growth, how would that,

1337
02:51:40,204 --> 02:51:44,348
how would that affect, um, adequate and effective policing?

1338
02:51:45,248 --> 02:51:48,614
Would it, would it put us a year behind? Would it,

1339
02:51:48,840 --> 02:51:52,225
um, obviously we're gonna in the future gonna have to have

1340
02:51:52,241 --> 02:51:55,412
more officers anyways because is there's the amount of homes,

1341
02:51:55,652 --> 02:51:59,020
amount of residents, the amount of calls. And, um,

1342
02:51:59,966 --> 02:52:03,622
I would think that in the future, if we're doing

1343
02:52:03,655 --> 02:52:06,429
it 30% next year, if this does pass as,

1344
02:52:07,006 --> 02:52:11,320
as the Strong Mayor budget, then would that not automatically

1345
02:52:11,352 --> 02:52:15,041
put the police department in a— in, uh,

1346
02:52:15,265 --> 02:52:19,066
behind the times? And then another catch-up

1347
02:52:19,114 --> 02:52:22,251
year would have to Captain?

1348
02:52:22,508 --> 02:52:26,223
Thanks, through the chair, a lot of hypotheticals there. I would like to think

1349
02:52:26,723 --> 02:52:29,906
the population is growing because people feel really safe in Cobourg and they

1350
02:52:30,406 --> 02:52:34,464
think the police do a great job and that's why they're moving here. So that's,

1351
02:52:34,578 --> 02:52:37,701
that's just my snideness, but I'm at that time in my career where I can

1352
02:52:38,201 --> 02:52:40,602
be really snide. So, um,

1353
02:52:42,504 --> 02:52:46,209
all seriousness, the growth of the community and the changing dynamics

1354
02:52:46,258 --> 02:52:49,528
of the community, numbers and population are one thing. The changing

1355
02:52:49,560 --> 02:52:53,125
dynamics of who's in those population makes it very different.

1356
02:52:53,190 --> 02:52:56,480
We have a senior population requiring different demands of their police,

1357
02:52:56,497 --> 02:52:59,612
different demands of their services, right? Um, so the growth,

1358
02:53:00,274 --> 02:53:03,391
the growth is, is an impact. We are not reactive in that sense.

1359
02:53:03,439 --> 02:53:05,926
That's why I asked for 8, that's why I asked for 6, is because we

1360
02:53:06,167 --> 02:53:09,582
were recognizing the growth. Um, we are

1361
02:53:09,792 --> 02:53:12,788
up against it, like we're lean, right? This budget is lean, and that's why I

1362
02:53:13,288 --> 02:53:15,110
take offense to the comments, is that it's lean, lean, lane.

1363
02:53:16,250 --> 02:53:19,395
By borrowing from reserves, you're, you're leaning yourself out

1364
02:53:19,895 --> 02:53:22,909
in a different way. I would argue that this council— and I don't understand it,

1365
02:53:22,925 --> 02:53:26,344
and this is for smarter people than I— does have access to developmental charges.

1366
02:53:27,018 --> 02:53:30,965
If growth is such an issue, maybe that's somewhere council can think of in this

1367
02:53:31,014 --> 02:53:34,833
term or future terms about how to offset costs of increasing

1368
02:53:34,881 --> 02:53:37,834
police, uh, policing costs, be it equipment, capital,

1369
02:53:37,914 --> 02:53:41,140
and/or staffing. But again, I don't know much about the development

1370
02:53:41,640 --> 02:53:44,655
costs other than There's— this is— that's the big thing that's out there. But I

1371
02:53:44,704 --> 02:53:47,641
hope I answered your question, sir. Deputy Mayor,

1372
02:53:49,790 --> 02:53:52,762
I'm fine. It's Councilor Buro kind of touched on the theme I wanted to raise,

1373
02:53:52,778 --> 02:53:56,007
so no need to be redundant. Thank you. Not a worries.

1374
02:53:56,624 --> 02:53:57,542
And by all means, Councilor Barber.

1375
02:54:01,470 --> 02:54:05,076
May sound like a silly question, but, um, where I think the

1376
02:54:05,141 --> 02:54:08,829
argument really comes down to the extra million we're talking

1377
02:54:08,845 --> 02:54:12,630
about transferring from the police reserve

1378
02:54:13,130 --> 02:54:16,329
to, uh, to the budget in order to be able to get it down,

1379
02:54:17,308 --> 02:54:20,632
uh, and off the levy. Are, uh,

1380
02:54:20,841 --> 02:54:24,807
is there any other reserves that we could,

1381
02:54:25,016 --> 02:54:28,484
uh, look at, uh, to do the same job? Just a

1382
02:54:28,984 --> 02:54:31,711
question for anyone who would like to answer it. Thank you.

1383
02:54:32,482 --> 02:54:35,452
Sorry, Mr. Barber, are you asking that question to the police or to staff?

1384
02:54:40,718 --> 02:54:44,458
Okay, so we'll hold that. I was going to say, Mr.— sorry, Chief Vandergraaff,

1385
02:54:44,490 --> 02:54:47,214
do you want to start? I was going to say, were you going to start

1386
02:54:47,714 --> 02:54:51,276
suggesting pulling from the Parks and Rec, sir? Uh, thank you, Mr. So we'll

1387
02:54:51,776 --> 02:54:55,580
save that for staff. Thank you very much, Deputy Mayor. Thank you, Mayor Cleveland,

1388
02:54:55,612 --> 02:54:58,638
through you to the chief. And perhaps this could have been a question to Roger,

1389
02:54:58,688 --> 02:54:58,705
uh,

1390
02:54:58,721 --> 02:55:03,044
20.5 as

1391
02:55:03,544 --> 02:55:07,482
a taxpayer, that does concern me. Compromising community policing though also concerns me.

1392
02:55:08,770 --> 02:55:12,497
Uh, depleting reserves concerns me. So if we move from the $1.3

1393
02:55:12,997 --> 02:55:17,670
million and it puts us down to just under that half million— my

1394
02:55:17,702 --> 02:55:21,487
understanding is even pre my involvement on the Police Services

1395
02:55:21,504 --> 02:55:24,953
Board and on council, previous MOUs— and MOUs evolve and

1396
02:55:25,453 --> 02:55:29,333
change over time— were intentionally drafted to build

1397
02:55:29,833 --> 02:55:34,256
up the those reserves. So if in one swoop we use

1398
02:55:34,756 --> 02:55:38,838
that to meet the policing need, what I'm trying to get at is how long

1399
02:55:39,032 --> 02:55:42,775
would that take for us to build back up said

1400
02:55:42,871 --> 02:55:46,068
reserve, and what risks are we facing,

1401
02:55:46,727 --> 02:55:49,437
um, with just having a reserve of half a million?

1402
02:55:51,039 --> 02:55:53,366
Uh, thank you. Through the chair, uh, Deputy Mayor, uh,

1403
02:55:53,724 --> 02:55:57,140
fantastic question. So it's taken us a while to build up those reserves,

1404
02:55:57,654 --> 02:56:00,497
and we are not building them up as much as we heard earlier, um,

1405
02:56:01,252 --> 02:56:04,785
in that we're depleting from them when we borrowed $700,000 from them last year,

1406
02:56:05,122 --> 02:56:08,463
which was an impetus to update the MOU for the right reasons.

1407
02:56:09,202 --> 02:56:13,859
And, um, the issue we have is that in addition to not

1408
02:56:14,359 --> 02:56:17,617
building up the reserves, we become highly reliant on the Corporate Services money.

1409
02:56:18,212 --> 02:56:21,568
So we're already borrowing $2.8 million. I don't want to say what

1410
02:56:22,068 --> 02:56:25,583
the future holds, but one would suggest we will at least

1411
02:56:26,083 --> 02:56:29,742
make that net revenue, and I would hope to see more, but you're only

1412
02:56:29,774 --> 02:56:33,178
playing with that extra, that beyond.

1413
02:56:33,226 --> 02:56:36,903
So we have to— every year we have to find $2.8 million, and then whatever

1414
02:56:36,983 --> 02:56:40,548
else is there, plus capital expenses, might be what we add to the reserve.

1415
02:56:40,612 --> 02:56:44,112
So as it looks right now, I'm going to suggest there's going

1416
02:56:44,144 --> 02:56:47,613
to be no substantive change to those reserve accounts for the foreseeable future.

1417
02:56:50,711 --> 02:56:54,065
Uh, Chief, can I expect at least the next 6 months you and I making

1418
02:56:54,081 --> 02:56:57,596
some trips to Ottawa to get that $40 million, uh, police building

1419
02:56:57,709 --> 02:57:01,063
budget, uh, moving in the right direction? Because I'm going to need your help up

1420
02:57:01,563 --> 02:57:04,289
there, uh, to see if we can get that $40 million reserve. Because if we're

1421
02:57:04,789 --> 02:57:07,371
trying to save up for a $40 million building, $200,000 a year,

1422
02:57:08,045 --> 02:57:11,431
uh, the CPS will be long gone before we ever get a

1423
02:57:11,931 --> 02:57:14,064
building built. So we're actually going to need to get up to the federal level,

1424
02:57:14,080 --> 02:57:17,310
and I'm just making sure that we can work together and make sure that we

1425
02:57:17,375 --> 02:57:20,383
do that. Because to your point, half million dollar reserve is going to take a

1426
02:57:20,883 --> 02:57:22,713
long time. So we need to get to Ottawa and make sure that the federal

1427
02:57:23,213 --> 02:57:26,443
government knows about the need for your station, sir. I'm, I'm having a real hard

1428
02:57:26,943 --> 02:57:30,123
time with this new chief, but I'll get to Ottawa with you if it means

1429
02:57:30,236 --> 02:57:32,980
the legacy of this service has a new building. Thank you, sir.

1430
02:57:34,310 --> 02:57:34,748
Councilor Maton.

1431
02:57:37,361 --> 02:57:41,846
Just, I have a few points, questions, and Based

1432
02:57:42,346 --> 02:57:46,522
on my recollection of your presentations previously, my understanding

1433
02:57:46,619 --> 02:57:49,872
is that there are social

1434
02:57:50,372 --> 02:57:54,191
service organizations that provide assistance to

1435
02:57:54,223 --> 02:57:56,528
address community needs,

1436
02:57:57,044 --> 02:58:00,518
but they don't operate 24/7, and the police have to

1437
02:58:01,018 --> 02:58:04,110
step in. Highly trained, able to deal with that,

1438
02:58:04,563 --> 02:58:08,640
but because other organizations are

1439
02:58:08,689 --> 02:58:10,847
operating maybe daytime, 8 to 4, whatever,

1440
02:58:12,050 --> 02:58:15,598
the, uh, the rest of the day, the rest

1441
02:58:16,098 --> 02:58:19,581
of the week, by necessity, is, is,

1442
02:58:19,757 --> 02:58:23,659
uh, supported, uh, by policing. Is that a general,

1443
02:58:24,735 --> 02:58:28,091
uh, statement that is accurate,

1444
02:58:28,284 --> 02:58:31,881
that I understand? Because I have some comments and questions based

1445
02:58:32,381 --> 02:58:36,152
on that. Yeah, uh, so through the chair

1446
02:58:36,652 --> 02:58:39,877
to yourself, Councilor Mouton, so the statement is, as I always say,

1447
02:58:41,273 --> 02:58:45,107
the, the social service agencies who are best able to lead in certain areas

1448
02:58:45,204 --> 02:58:48,316
of the, uh, intersect of homelessness, addictions, poverty,

1449
02:58:49,054 --> 02:58:52,889
um, are not the police. They're actually those agencies.

1450
02:58:53,001 --> 02:58:56,178
And, and they're not built like police are in the sense of they're not on

1451
02:58:56,274 --> 02:59:00,542
24/7 clocks. Our emergency room is built on a 24/7 clock

1452
02:59:01,042 --> 02:59:04,618
with a couple of respite beds. But those true people

1453
02:59:04,634 --> 02:59:07,457
who can move somebody from now, moment of crisis,

1454
02:59:08,148 --> 02:59:12,788
to dealing with it, to responding to it safely,

1455
02:59:12,900 --> 02:59:16,577
and there's all sorts of personal safety requirements when we're dealing with people

1456
02:59:16,593 --> 02:59:20,318
in crisis sometimes. They're just don't there. They're just, they're just not there.

1457
02:59:21,394 --> 02:59:24,508
And those social agencies are the experts, and we as

1458
02:59:24,541 --> 02:59:27,559
police leaders in Ontario want to see them in place.

1459
02:59:27,671 --> 02:59:30,032
We want to see them at 1 o'clock in the morning. We want the right

1460
02:59:30,160 --> 02:59:33,500
people dealing with the people at the right time to making real

1461
02:59:34,319 --> 02:59:38,335
But that is really utopic in view. I honestly don't

1462
02:59:38,835 --> 02:59:42,351
think that, because otherwise we're going to be having budget conversations around social services budgets

1463
02:59:42,367 --> 02:59:46,271
being 20.5%, and there's a reason why policing continues

1464
02:59:46,303 --> 02:59:49,741
to go up because the changing dynamic. So it is a statement,

1465
02:59:49,757 --> 02:59:53,276
but at 1 o'clock in the morning when somebody is suffering in our community from

1466
02:59:53,308 --> 02:59:57,163
a significant mental health crisis, be it situational or medical—

1467
02:59:57,613 --> 03:00:01,877
by situational, something happened in their life at this particular moment that's making them act

1468
03:00:02,377 --> 03:00:04,543
out or they're just under a medical distress.

1469
03:00:06,358 --> 03:00:09,601
Outside of paramedics, great community paramedicine, outside of fire,

1470
03:00:10,214 --> 03:00:13,360
not because the fire chief's sitting here, but these— but, but they're great people.

1471
03:00:13,990 --> 03:00:17,840
It's the police. So where I'm headed

1472
03:00:17,873 --> 03:00:22,067
with this, Mr. Mayor and Chief, is that I

1473
03:00:22,455 --> 03:00:25,698
learned a long time ago that if you are able

1474
03:00:26,198 --> 03:00:29,820
to make, you know, find the resources, skimp here and there to

1475
03:00:30,320 --> 03:00:33,520
make it happen. Other levels of government are going, oh, they've got it figured

1476
03:00:34,020 --> 03:00:36,800
out, we don't have to worry about giving them extra money,

1477
03:00:37,320 --> 03:00:40,960
or the way that certain other organizations

1478
03:00:41,460 --> 03:00:44,980
provide the services or other levels of government provide the services doesn't change

1479
03:00:45,480 --> 03:00:48,840
because, oh, they're managing, they're managing. So I'm a little bit concerned about that,

1480
03:00:49,060 --> 03:00:54,052
and because now we're facing this budget

1481
03:00:54,506 --> 03:00:57,962
increase. And so my question to

1482
03:00:57,979 --> 03:00:59,066
you would be,

1483
03:01:02,376 --> 03:01:06,457
I see that there needs to be some political interference with

1484
03:01:06,473 --> 03:01:09,799
regards to how things are evolving.

1485
03:01:09,864 --> 03:01:15,519
For example, our court costs in 2020 combined

1486
03:01:15,552 --> 03:01:19,821
was $296,127. In 2026,

1487
03:01:20,273 --> 03:01:25,055
we are looking at 1.865947.

1488
03:01:25,120 --> 03:01:30,375
There are some recoveries, but the

1489
03:01:30,407 --> 03:01:33,539
more the needs develop

1490
03:01:33,878 --> 03:01:39,760
and change, there needs to be other ways that

1491
03:01:40,259 --> 03:01:43,316
our costs are being compensated. I don't know if I'm getting to the point here.

1492
03:01:44,360 --> 03:01:48,004
That if we struggle to manage

1493
03:01:48,504 --> 03:01:52,290
it all ourselves, like I'm, this might be a little

1494
03:01:52,418 --> 03:01:55,902
bit of humor, but why is the courthouse not

1495
03:01:55,950 --> 03:01:59,610
an independent state, right? So that they have to go

1496
03:01:59,626 --> 03:02:03,222
out and get the funding in order to provide the services,

1497
03:02:03,559 --> 03:02:07,235
the administration. I mean, it's just, it just falls back on

1498
03:02:07,331 --> 03:02:11,329
this community and it's extraordinary the

1499
03:02:11,345 --> 03:02:14,781
expense. So is there— do we need to look

1500
03:02:15,281 --> 03:02:18,128
at things a different way in order to keep core policing?

1501
03:02:20,524 --> 03:02:23,969
Thank you for that. Wow, you are— everyone has become amazing

1502
03:02:24,066 --> 03:02:27,123
at asking 100 questions in one. It's great.

1503
03:02:27,382 --> 03:02:30,899
My jury trial time, although few and far between, it's taught

1504
03:02:30,931 --> 03:02:34,417
me well. So let's unpack this. So I agree with you,

1505
03:02:35,846 --> 03:02:41,437
they defunded ministries. Governments have passed— I don't care what color of government—

1506
03:02:41,937 --> 03:02:45,323
Government, governments of past have defunded ministries. And those ministries

1507
03:02:45,339 --> 03:02:48,135
were defunded for a variety of reasons, I'm sure they were reasonable at the time,

1508
03:02:48,488 --> 03:02:52,040
with no thought about what was gonna happen in 2025 when there

1509
03:02:52,540 --> 03:02:55,807
was an opioid epidemic that coincided with homelessness and poverty.

1510
03:02:57,116 --> 03:03:00,167
And they defunded all these agencies and then said, oh, the police will do it.

1511
03:03:00,505 --> 03:03:03,950
Like, why is it that when the power goes out, my 911 communicators get

1512
03:03:03,982 --> 03:03:07,533
phone calls to say, when's the power coming back? On. It makes no sense

1513
03:03:07,613 --> 03:03:11,259
other than we are there when you need us. We come. We are

1514
03:03:11,388 --> 03:03:14,262
the largest street gang in the world in the police force,

1515
03:03:14,792 --> 03:03:18,599
so we have their numbers. You're 100%

1516
03:03:18,631 --> 03:03:21,843
correct. I love your idea of making the courts an independent state.

1517
03:03:22,164 --> 03:03:24,943
They can secure it, they can manage it,

1518
03:03:25,521 --> 03:03:28,749
they can call us when all hell breaks loose, and our team will go up

1519
03:03:28,813 --> 03:03:32,282
there and provide that emergent tactical response once,

1520
03:03:32,924 --> 03:03:36,904
but it's not going to override when you have dueling ministries

1521
03:03:37,643 --> 03:03:40,788
fighting about a case. So I spoke clearly about the Jordan decision,

1522
03:03:40,933 --> 03:03:44,833
and yet you have to read it. It says that a person—

1523
03:03:44,865 --> 03:03:47,657
and rightly so— if you're charged in the offense, you should have the right to

1524
03:03:47,689 --> 03:03:51,268
be— your matter to be heard as soon as possible. Those timelines

1525
03:03:51,525 --> 03:03:54,831
are, are silly. However, we're a

1526
03:03:55,331 --> 03:03:58,218
proactive agency. I believe he's still in the back room.

1527
03:03:58,266 --> 03:04:01,780
Sergeant Kerr is in my space. He was tasked 6 months ago with

1528
03:04:02,213 --> 03:04:05,722
leading a substantive change at our courthouse.

1529
03:04:06,924 --> 03:04:11,475
The substantive change in our courthouse was pre-charge consultation.

1530
03:04:11,811 --> 03:04:14,952
In other words, before our officers laid a charge in most events,

1531
03:04:14,968 --> 03:04:18,606
it's not all, they would speak to the Crown, and then the Crown Attorney,

1532
03:04:18,782 --> 03:04:21,843
Ministry of Attorney General, would determine is it in the public interest to

1533
03:04:22,343 --> 03:04:25,769
proceed with this charge, is there a reasonable probability of conviction if we proceed with

1534
03:04:26,269 --> 03:04:30,112
this charge. We better do this work work before we arrest the person so that

1535
03:04:30,161 --> 03:04:33,206
we can get to court faster, more efficient, more effective.

1536
03:04:33,863 --> 03:04:37,679
That is a great system. We went to the local Crown Attorney.

1537
03:04:37,791 --> 03:04:41,285
I went with the office. The local Crown was, hey, Chief, we're all in.

1538
03:04:41,943 --> 03:04:45,325
This is happening in other places. They headed down the path,

1539
03:04:45,630 --> 03:04:48,948
I mean, as fast as I like things done. They beat my timelines

1540
03:04:49,557 --> 03:04:53,019
only to get our response 2 weeks ago, and the response was, we're having a

1541
03:04:53,519 --> 03:04:56,238
hard time staffing the Crown position in this plan.

1542
03:04:58,169 --> 03:05:01,238
So here we go, the Ministry of Attorney General tells me faster,

1543
03:05:01,318 --> 03:05:05,352
better, quicker, I concur, I deploy staff,

1544
03:05:05,673 --> 03:05:09,222
everybody in this horseshoe's mad about my court administration costs, we have the

1545
03:05:09,722 --> 03:05:13,006
right people doing the right work, I believe Kerry's in the audience, saying we're

1546
03:05:13,506 --> 03:05:17,021
gonna have the best digital evidence management, my board 4 years ago saw the problem,

1547
03:05:17,087 --> 03:05:20,399
said fund it out of corporate services chief, we're not funding it on

1548
03:05:20,416 --> 03:05:23,614
the tax levy, we've been building for this, we're there, we go

1549
03:05:24,114 --> 03:05:27,735
to the Crown, the Crown goes, yes, let's do it. Ah, we got no money.

1550
03:05:29,195 --> 03:05:32,787
So to your point, yes, there needs to be substantive

1551
03:05:33,044 --> 03:05:36,347
change to affect long-term change in the

1552
03:05:36,847 --> 03:05:40,260
cost of policing. We cannot be all things to all people

1553
03:05:40,340 --> 03:05:42,810
anymore. We have to be first response.

1554
03:05:43,949 --> 03:05:47,701
Chief, you could, like, I wanted to record that because

1555
03:05:47,878 --> 03:05:51,165
I can't wait to take that statement forward the way you succinctly pointed it out.

1556
03:05:51,230 --> 03:05:55,355
And that's why I continue to support the CPS and will always support

1557
03:05:55,612 --> 03:05:59,304
the CPS in Cobourg because of what you just outlined. Your team

1558
03:05:59,513 --> 03:06:03,044
actually cares about this community and actually brings innovative

1559
03:06:03,060 --> 03:06:06,768
change and innovative solutions. And to your point, Councillor, I am glad

1560
03:06:06,817 --> 03:06:10,637
to hear you're also thinking about a reimagined county, because I

1561
03:06:10,669 --> 03:06:14,490
think that's the reality here. Councillor Mitan, to your point, is that

1562
03:06:15,100 --> 03:06:18,294
we're sitting here discussing percentages between police and

1563
03:06:18,374 --> 03:06:21,584
fire here, and we're debating that it can't cost, and it's all going back.

1564
03:06:22,002 --> 03:06:25,019
And I think what you're seeing, Councilor Mouton, and what I'm glad to have this

1565
03:06:25,131 --> 03:06:29,850
conversation, is that here we are in Cobourg debating a

1566
03:06:30,350 --> 03:06:33,798
few percentages over a $30 million budget, yet what

1567
03:06:34,298 --> 03:06:37,730
we're not talking about is the $20 million a year that leaves

1568
03:06:38,230 --> 03:06:42,080
the Cobourg tax base and goes to the County of Northumberland. And then that

1569
03:06:42,580 --> 03:06:46,204
$20 million is distributed throughout the County and actually

1570
03:06:46,380 --> 03:06:50,407
increases the costs here in Cobourg. The reason we have the police budget

1571
03:06:50,907 --> 03:06:54,337
we do, and the reason our police force have had to go to such great

1572
03:06:54,837 --> 03:06:58,155
lengths to find innovative ways to fund their operations,

1573
03:06:58,588 --> 03:07:02,406
is because for the last 7 to 8 years, our community has

1574
03:07:02,439 --> 03:07:06,449
been dealing with the problems of the county on a $30 million budget.

1575
03:07:07,412 --> 03:07:10,107
The reality is, is when you look at Peterborough and Peterborough County,

1576
03:07:10,444 --> 03:07:13,907
Peterborough city has almost 5 times the

1577
03:07:14,407 --> 03:07:18,044
budget of Peterborough County. Yet when you look here, we're sitting

1578
03:07:18,076 --> 03:07:21,812
on a $29 million budget, and the county is 70 of just

1579
03:07:22,068 --> 03:07:26,301
what the lower tiers give it. When you start adding in the provincial transfers,

1580
03:07:26,798 --> 03:07:30,566
the healthcare transfers, all of their transfers, they're in the hundreds of millions

1581
03:07:31,066 --> 03:07:34,686
of dollars. And it— this is the pattern that can't continue,

1582
03:07:34,991 --> 03:07:38,759
Councillor Matan. And I appreciate you bringing it forward because we're sitting

1583
03:07:38,839 --> 03:07:42,208
here fighting over the penny while dollar bills are

1584
03:07:42,708 --> 03:07:46,076
being thrown away and used as firewood up at that level. Now, I'm very proud

1585
03:07:46,576 --> 03:07:50,121
that this year the county was finally able to get to a 3.7% levy

1586
03:07:50,137 --> 03:07:54,117
increase. It required a drastic change of leadership at

1587
03:07:54,230 --> 03:07:56,894
the county to be able to even have that conversation.

1588
03:07:57,761 --> 03:08:01,468
And I have been united with Mr. Vander— sorry, with Chief for

1589
03:08:01,968 --> 03:08:05,176
3 years, and I will remain united. We— it doesn't

1590
03:08:05,676 --> 03:08:09,431
matter. The board board, the police, or the chief in the position, when you're tasked

1591
03:08:09,931 --> 03:08:13,380
to clean up an entire county's mess on a single tier's budget,

1592
03:08:13,910 --> 03:08:17,105
who's ever going to win? And unfortunately,

1593
03:08:17,121 --> 03:08:20,895
it's the Cobourg taxpayers who are constantly asked to front

1594
03:08:21,395 --> 03:08:25,037
the money forward for the County of Northumberland's issues

1595
03:08:25,214 --> 03:08:28,650
being centralized here. I think, Councilor Métun, you are on

1596
03:08:28,762 --> 03:08:32,780
point. I've been screaming from the rooftops, a Reimagine We can't

1597
03:08:33,280 --> 03:08:35,297
do that alone. We need to talk to our tax base as well as the

1598
03:08:35,797 --> 03:08:38,960
province. But this is the problem. We're sitting here fighting for pennies when dollars

1599
03:08:39,056 --> 03:08:42,025
are being used at the county for firewood. And I think your point is bang

1600
03:08:42,203 --> 03:08:45,126
on. So I just wanted to state that. Thank you, Chief, for finding a way

1601
03:08:45,626 --> 03:08:48,856
over your career to do more with less while you've been picking up the pieces.

1602
03:08:50,340 --> 03:08:54,288
Any further questions? By all means, Council Bureau. Um, I agree with you

1603
03:08:54,788 --> 03:09:00,030
100% on that. Um, and I know that I have asked

1604
03:09:00,530 --> 03:09:02,920
asked numerous times to the minister, why would you be giving OPP money,

1605
03:09:03,578 --> 03:09:07,009
um, last year and then capping them at this, which, which I believe

1606
03:09:07,137 --> 03:09:10,729
in both years would total about 33% in 2

1607
03:09:10,810 --> 03:09:14,498
years, and nothing. And when I

1608
03:09:14,998 --> 03:09:18,298
stood up, the board was there, and I stood up and said, what about the

1609
03:09:18,346 --> 03:09:21,618
regular municipalities? Like, that we have our own, that we have to—

1610
03:09:21,794 --> 03:09:25,306
they are expensive. And he says— and he said, no, absolutely not

1611
03:09:25,322 --> 03:09:28,713
in front of everybody. And I asked and asked again.

1612
03:09:29,564 --> 03:09:32,891
Um, I do agree that there's a lot of issues that Coburg,

1613
03:09:33,421 --> 03:09:36,509
um, at the county level should be taken care of. But,

1614
03:09:36,980 --> 03:09:39,544
um, unfortunately, where it is right now,

1615
03:09:40,225 --> 03:09:43,063
um, it is falling on the burden of the police. Um,

1616
03:09:44,780 --> 03:09:47,340
but having said that, my question is,

1617
03:09:48,951 --> 03:09:52,573
in which we coming back to our dollars or pennies that

1618
03:09:53,073 --> 03:09:56,444
we're, we're fighting over. Um, if we deplete our reserves,

1619
03:09:57,582 --> 03:10:01,304
what would be the better way? Deplete our reserves and kick

1620
03:10:01,804 --> 03:10:05,415
it down the can, or take the budget out of our— out

1621
03:10:05,915 --> 03:10:06,256
of the police?

1622
03:10:09,592 --> 03:10:11,080
Like, I may— I'll say that again.

1623
03:10:12,783 --> 03:10:16,633
Should— is it, in your opinion, and even ask Roger this,

1624
03:10:16,811 --> 03:10:21,325
should we have, uh, the reserves depleted or

1625
03:10:22,116 --> 03:10:23,165
the 20.5.

1626
03:10:26,233 --> 03:10:29,665
I, I should run for office. I, I was going to— the duly

1627
03:10:29,939 --> 03:10:33,545
agreed-upon memorandum of understanding between the Cobourg Police Services

1628
03:10:33,562 --> 03:10:36,379
Board and the Town of Cobourg should stand the test of time,

1629
03:10:36,685 --> 03:10:39,807
but I'm not in the one making a very difficult budget decision in a time

1630
03:10:39,855 --> 03:10:43,495
of affordability crisis. But I truly believe the MOU that

1631
03:10:43,995 --> 03:10:47,972
was was hard-fought and nos were said and

1632
03:10:48,472 --> 03:10:51,410
feelings were hurt along the way and, and mended.

1633
03:10:52,069 --> 03:10:53,783
Um, I think that's the rule of the day.

1634
03:10:57,028 --> 03:10:59,187
Any further questions? Councilor Matan, by all means.

1635
03:11:00,137 --> 03:11:03,745
Yes, I don't know who I should direct this question to, but with regards

1636
03:11:03,842 --> 03:11:07,672
to the, the Police Service Board budget, it's from this

1637
03:11:08,172 --> 03:11:12,235
council, it's either a yes or a no. Yes, correct. We can't,

1638
03:11:12,876 --> 03:11:16,836
we can't suggest, you know, going splitting

1639
03:11:16,884 --> 03:11:19,977
it between this year and next year further to Councillor Darlings.

1640
03:11:20,025 --> 03:11:23,488
Sorry, I just want to correct. Yes. So when it comes to the allocation

1641
03:11:23,841 --> 03:11:27,111
of reserves, yes. When it comes

1642
03:11:27,143 --> 03:11:30,910
to operational line-by-line concerns, no, that is the job

1643
03:11:31,410 --> 03:11:34,661
of the Cobourg Police Service. We only fund, yay or nay.

1644
03:11:35,077 --> 03:11:37,787
Now, in terms of applying reserves, that does fall within our jurisdiction. Fall to the

1645
03:11:38,287 --> 03:11:41,738
reserve of this council, and that is it. So because of that, what you're

1646
03:11:42,238 --> 03:11:45,978
alluding to, that is this council's option. We can either choose through

1647
03:11:46,478 --> 03:11:48,548
the motion that's on the table to go back and put it on the tax

1648
03:11:49,048 --> 03:11:51,519
levy, or we can approve what the mayor's budget is, which is not on the

1649
03:11:52,019 --> 03:11:54,426
tax levy. Brent Larimer and I do this all the time, but you can ask

1650
03:11:54,926 --> 03:11:57,911
me any question about any line. You just can't say, hey Chief, knock off $10

1651
03:11:58,184 --> 03:12:01,235
off of this particular line. But you're more than welcome to ask me any question

1652
03:12:01,251 --> 03:12:04,655
about any line. It's just about council's decision is the whole

1653
03:12:04,704 --> 03:12:07,816
budget, or yes or no. But you're more than welcome to

1654
03:12:08,316 --> 03:12:11,105
ask me questions about why this and why that, just to be clear. And for

1655
03:12:11,605 --> 03:12:14,538
the clarity, everything that was asked is on the budget as it stands.

1656
03:12:15,533 --> 03:12:18,068
Any further questions of the chief? And I do appreciate this is much longer than

1657
03:12:18,100 --> 03:12:20,860
5 minutes, but we do appreciate you having the time and the willingness to be

1658
03:12:20,892 --> 03:12:24,502
here, Chief. Okay, at this time, um, we've got a motion on

1659
03:12:25,002 --> 03:12:28,208
the floor that's up for debate or up for conversation. We've heard from both,

1660
03:12:28,352 --> 03:12:34,661
uh, Treasurer Do we go with CFO or see what is— CAO

1661
03:12:34,967 --> 03:12:38,172
is the title. Thank you. So our CAO and Chief have both

1662
03:12:38,672 --> 03:12:41,455
had a chance to speak. We have the motion. It is a recorded vote.

1663
03:12:41,536 --> 03:12:44,902
Councillor Barber, uh, if I may get

1664
03:12:45,402 --> 03:12:49,350
an answer to— oops, sorry, may I— if I may get an answer to my

1665
03:12:49,414 --> 03:12:52,823
question, which I, uh, I apologize to the Chief, of course it

1666
03:12:53,323 --> 03:12:56,902
shouldn't have fallen under him. Is there any other reserve reserve that,

1667
03:12:57,844 --> 03:13:00,912
uh, that could or can be used under this circumstance?

1668
03:13:00,993 --> 03:13:02,324
That is aye or nay?

1669
03:13:05,763 --> 03:13:08,564
I'll leave this to staff as they're asking staff the question. I mean,

1670
03:13:08,660 --> 03:13:11,945
it again, it does fall to all reserves of the will of this council.

1671
03:13:15,663 --> 03:13:19,085
Uh, for you, Mayor, to the Councillor, um, just to clarify,

1672
03:13:19,101 --> 03:13:24,041
is this to reduce the police Okay,

1673
03:13:24,541 --> 03:13:28,211
I think in terms of utilizing another Town of Cobourg reserve just to

1674
03:13:28,372 --> 03:13:31,994
reduce the police reserve, I would prefer not to proceed down that

1675
03:13:32,494 --> 03:13:35,663
path. I think these are sort of Town of Cobourg reserve accounts, but again,

1676
03:13:35,711 --> 03:13:39,095
I think if it is the will of council, but as I've indicated,

1677
03:13:39,111 --> 03:13:42,251
I think in a few separate reports, one report that I presented in May,

1678
03:13:42,284 --> 03:13:45,742
a financial sustainability report, and then a reserve analysis

1679
03:13:46,242 --> 03:13:49,442
report that was discussed at the standing committee a few

1680
03:13:49,942 --> 03:13:52,853
weeks ago is coming to regular council on Wednesday. I think in both reports I've

1681
03:13:53,353 --> 03:13:56,733
indicated that the Town of Cobourg's reserve accounts, that's excluding the police reserves,

1682
03:13:57,486 --> 03:14:00,660
are well underfunded compared to similar-sized municipalities.

1683
03:14:01,429 --> 03:14:04,267
So my preference would be to not reduce those reserves further.

1684
03:14:05,581 --> 03:14:08,066
Before I follow up, I'm going to go to CO Vaughn, who also has an

1685
03:14:08,566 --> 03:14:12,378
answer. Thank you. Through the chair, maybe just

1686
03:14:12,635 --> 03:14:16,450
to build upon what our Treasurer has

1687
03:14:16,498 --> 03:14:20,137
spoken to, the other thing we've been really careful to do and really

1688
03:14:20,233 --> 03:14:23,666
deliberate about is demonstrating demonstrating the cost for particular

1689
03:14:23,682 --> 03:14:26,877
units of service and for particular services. So I think if you

1690
03:14:26,910 --> 03:14:30,281
were to take a non-police reserve to fund a

1691
03:14:30,781 --> 03:14:33,926
police budget, it helps— it continues to mystify

1692
03:14:34,118 --> 03:14:37,971
what the costs of a particular item are. So while we

1693
03:14:37,987 --> 03:14:42,290
wouldn't want to take reserves from the fire department to pay for community

1694
03:14:42,306 --> 03:14:45,774
services, because when you're trying to demonstrate to the taxpayer what

1695
03:14:46,274 --> 03:14:50,593
the cost of service is, it becomes really complex. So part of our financial sustainability

1696
03:14:50,625 --> 03:14:54,406
plan has been about building our reserves and, and doing all that due diligence,

1697
03:14:54,793 --> 03:14:58,163
but it's also about accountability and transparency and demonstrating,

1698
03:14:58,600 --> 03:15:02,213
telling the story about the cost of every service so it's really clearly

1699
03:15:02,246 --> 03:15:03,655
understood by the taxpayer as well.

1700
03:15:05,886 --> 03:15:09,808
Follow-up, please. Just very briefly, it is the answer that I expected,

1701
03:15:10,242 --> 03:15:13,456
but I wanted to get it on the record. Thank you. Thank you.

1702
03:15:13,504 --> 03:15:16,862
And again, I just want to point out it a couple times it's been stated

1703
03:15:17,362 --> 03:15:20,977
that the, the reserves would be depleted. There was

1704
03:15:20,993 --> 03:15:24,310
a very intentional decision. It would be highly inappropriate to

1705
03:15:24,406 --> 03:15:27,932
leave both the current and future Chief zero in the

1706
03:15:27,948 --> 03:15:32,002
reserves. We can't plan for emergencies. If there's

1707
03:15:32,675 --> 03:15:36,360
a, a police emergency, our CPS need to have reserves

1708
03:15:36,860 --> 03:15:40,126
in the bank at some point to be able to fund any kind of emergency

1709
03:15:40,190 --> 03:15:43,411
like that. So it— they haven't been depleted. Yes, they've been reduced by a

1710
03:15:43,911 --> 03:15:46,936
million 2 or 1.3 million, but I just want to be very clear, the term

1711
03:15:47,016 --> 03:15:52,046
depleted suggests that all of them are gone. There's 480,000,

1712
03:15:52,079 --> 03:15:55,026
just shy of a half million, and then that, yes, they can allocate. So,

1713
03:15:55,091 --> 03:15:58,504
Councilor Mouton. The chief raised

1714
03:15:59,004 --> 03:16:02,877
an interesting point about development charges. And I'm

1715
03:16:03,377 --> 03:16:05,683
just thinking ahead. Currently,

1716
03:16:06,523 --> 03:16:09,399
police services is housed in a municipally owned building.

1717
03:16:10,687 --> 03:16:14,831
It's quite clear that with growth of the community needs of policing,

1718
03:16:14,879 --> 03:16:17,508
etc., that a new facility would be needed.

1719
03:16:18,500 --> 03:16:22,316
My question would be, I guess, through you, Mr. Mayor, to appropriate staff

1720
03:16:22,332 --> 03:16:26,181
person, are we collecting development charges

1721
03:16:26,439 --> 03:16:29,746
for this future growth need for the town of

1722
03:16:30,246 --> 03:16:34,157
Cobourg specific to police services,

1723
03:16:35,495 --> 03:16:38,197
a structure like, like a new building? Excuse me.

1724
03:16:39,969 --> 03:16:43,473
And if not,

1725
03:16:45,128 --> 03:16:48,763
does it qualify? Does it

1726
03:16:49,552 --> 03:16:53,049
qualify for development charges moving

1727
03:16:53,097 --> 03:16:56,384
forward? Would Mr. Gittings like to take

1728
03:16:56,884 --> 03:16:56,949
on that one, sir?

1729
03:17:00,442 --> 03:17:03,855
Through you, Mayor, to the Councillor. So in the 2022

1730
03:17:04,355 --> 03:17:08,125
development charge study, a new building was not specified under that study. So technically it's

1731
03:17:08,625 --> 03:17:12,331
not being funded by development charges. So now we are redoing the

1732
03:17:12,831 --> 03:17:16,219
development charge study in 2026. So that is

1733
03:17:16,251 --> 03:17:19,785
something that we could identify. Having said that, I would clarify that only

1734
03:17:20,285 --> 03:17:23,608
a portion of it would be applicable for development charges because some of that is

1735
03:17:23,640 --> 03:17:27,255
a new building that's serving existing taxpayers. So only the growth portion

1736
03:17:27,755 --> 03:17:31,046
would be applicable for the development charges.

1737
03:17:31,174 --> 03:17:35,046
And then just to clarify as well, under the Development Charge Act,

1738
03:17:35,945 --> 03:17:39,103
it does not include wages. And so any new staffing and things

1739
03:17:39,119 --> 03:17:41,360
like that would not be applicable for development charges.

1740
03:17:42,989 --> 03:17:46,359
Just to clarify, the need for this police station

1741
03:17:46,392 --> 03:17:50,345
cannot be overstated. The timeline with which we need to ensure our officers

1742
03:17:50,845 --> 03:17:54,120
have the equipment and the building required to do the best job they can cannot

1743
03:17:54,620 --> 03:17:58,089
wait for another 15 to 18 years as DCs build up. This is something that

1744
03:17:58,589 --> 03:18:02,042
needs to happen sooner than later. And so with the greatest respect to the DC

1745
03:18:02,106 --> 03:18:05,478
plan, the reality is, is we need other levels of government to chip in

1746
03:18:05,510 --> 03:18:09,190
and fund this because this is what we need for our frontline women. And so

1747
03:18:09,286 --> 03:18:12,977
I've already been to Ottawa twice in the last month to start this

1748
03:18:13,042 --> 03:18:16,444
work. We need to start advocating for the federal budget.

1749
03:18:16,493 --> 03:18:19,799
We know $52 billion is going to be available for capital projects

1750
03:18:20,120 --> 03:18:23,474
for communities that are there and ready to move forward. And this council and

1751
03:18:23,974 --> 03:18:26,396
I need to be very, very on the ball with this one over the next

1752
03:18:26,896 --> 03:18:30,296
11 months, focusing on the advocacy piece, because the reality is,

1753
03:18:30,312 --> 03:18:33,683
is at a couple hundred thousand dollars a year, we can't wait the

1754
03:18:34,183 --> 03:18:36,957
15 years to get our officers into a new facility. We We need this in

1755
03:18:37,457 --> 03:18:41,287
the next 2 to 3, which is going to require intervention from the federal government

1756
03:18:41,787 --> 03:18:45,153
to actually access those funds. That's something we'll be committing to. By all means,

1757
03:18:45,169 --> 03:18:48,570
Councilor Matan. Yeah, so thank you for that explanation.

1758
03:18:48,746 --> 03:18:51,762
I think though, moving forward, yes,

1759
03:18:52,275 --> 03:18:56,943
to expedite the new building, new that

1760
03:18:57,443 --> 03:19:01,370
is needed, but I think we would be remiss if we did not add,

1761
03:19:02,156 --> 03:19:06,566
because we don't know what the future is going to bring. What perhaps growth might

1762
03:19:07,066 --> 03:19:10,748
require. So I think it— I can't see that one would

1763
03:19:11,588 --> 03:19:14,946
compromise the other, but definitely it is

1764
03:19:15,042 --> 03:19:17,690
an important community facility.

1765
03:19:18,384 --> 03:19:21,886
So I hear you, Mr. Mayor, but I think we can do both. No worries.

1766
03:19:21,934 --> 03:19:24,210
I'm just going to go to see— do I have— who wants to ask questions?

1767
03:19:24,258 --> 03:19:26,614
That's just so I can write it down. I've got Councillor Burkett right now.

1768
03:19:26,678 --> 03:19:30,712
Okay. So I mean, CAO, thank you. I think this conversation

1769
03:19:30,777 --> 03:19:33,942
helps to underscore the importance of master plans and strategies

1770
03:19:34,040 --> 03:19:37,196
and why we do you undertake that work at the

1771
03:19:37,696 --> 03:19:41,445
municipal level. If you do not have master plans and strategies that identify future

1772
03:19:41,945 --> 03:19:45,949
needs or growth needs, then you're not able to inform your DC study to ensure

1773
03:19:46,449 --> 03:19:49,957
that you're capturing those appropriate costs. So again, we,

1774
03:19:50,165 --> 03:19:53,596
you know, while we may know organically that something may be needed,

1775
03:19:53,628 --> 03:19:57,524
without those fulsome documents demonstrating what is needed, when it's needed,

1776
03:19:57,620 --> 03:20:00,730
how it's needed, you're unable to collect those DCs for those

1777
03:20:01,230 --> 03:20:04,937
those purposes. So take your point as well, uh, Councillor Maton. Certainly when we do

1778
03:20:05,437 --> 03:20:09,047
DC updates, but we continue to work both municipal

1779
03:20:09,547 --> 03:20:13,110
staff and police staff around how we identify those pieces, what studies are

1780
03:20:13,610 --> 03:20:16,851
done, what plans are put forward, so that we have that really clear,

1781
03:20:16,963 --> 03:20:20,383
concise, crisp information when we're looking at the DC study to ensure that

1782
03:20:20,432 --> 03:20:23,707
we can collect from, from multiple parties, because we'd like to take,

1783
03:20:24,044 --> 03:20:25,778
take the revenue from all sources.

1784
03:20:27,623 --> 03:20:31,289
Councilor Burkett. I just want to be clear

1785
03:20:31,564 --> 03:20:34,955
before we— before I have a, I guess,

1786
03:20:34,971 --> 03:20:37,975
kind of a conversation about, uh, where we're going forward on this.

1787
03:20:38,848 --> 03:20:41,806
What motion is on the floor right now? Just, I just want to go back.

1788
03:20:41,919 --> 03:20:45,120
Mr. Lamer, if I can have it up. So the motion on the floor is

1789
03:20:45,216 --> 03:20:48,675
to— for council to go back to the original

1790
03:20:49,175 --> 03:20:54,130
allocation of funds where 1.3 isn't pulled out

1791
03:20:54,630 --> 03:20:56,577
out of the police levy and it goes back to the original, uh, okay,

1792
03:20:56,801 --> 03:21:00,462
20.5 landing on the levy, making it 6 point—

1793
03:21:00,962 --> 03:21:04,846
what was the number? I'm sorry, 6.08, 6.0. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, okay.

1794
03:21:05,649 --> 03:21:09,342
No, I just wanted to make sure I was clear on what we're actually

1795
03:21:09,842 --> 03:21:13,404
voting for. At the end of the day, I think what we're

1796
03:21:13,420 --> 03:21:19,714
looking at here is like the board has asked for the 20.5% increase

1797
03:21:20,214 --> 03:21:23,296
increase. The mayor has presented a budget where it's taken from reserves.

1798
03:21:24,316 --> 03:21:28,021
Obviously, other— some other council members have,

1799
03:21:28,619 --> 03:21:32,777
you know, want to go back to what the existing

1800
03:21:32,826 --> 03:21:36,135
was, like the ask and go put it on the levy. I think at this

1801
03:21:36,249 --> 03:21:39,609
point, just— and this isn't really necessarily,

1802
03:21:40,289 --> 03:21:43,770
you know, it's kind of kicking it down the road in a sense,

1803
03:21:43,851 --> 03:21:45,822
but at the same time, I think we have to do to you.

1804
03:21:47,010 --> 03:21:51,648
Financially, we have to look at this in a different

1805
03:21:51,937 --> 03:21:55,051
manner. You know, with— to the mayor's point,

1806
03:21:55,115 --> 03:21:58,437
you know, let's go into with a fair and

1807
03:21:58,937 --> 03:22:02,803
affordable— like, there's affordability crisis, people are concerned about

1808
03:22:02,819 --> 03:22:06,815
that. But at the same time, then, you know, we're looking at roughly—

1809
03:22:07,329 --> 03:22:10,732
and I'm just talking about the general police budget, I'm not

1810
03:22:11,232 --> 03:22:14,087
talking about Like, let's take the court service and that stuff out of it.

1811
03:22:14,135 --> 03:22:17,427
I'm just talking about the general policing. Like,

1812
03:22:17,443 --> 03:22:20,510
this is something that, you know, we obviously have bigger

1813
03:22:21,010 --> 03:22:24,155
issues, which has been highlighted numerous times. It was a problem when I was on

1814
03:22:24,187 --> 03:22:27,254
the board, the court services, because it's here, it's here,

1815
03:22:27,398 --> 03:22:29,903
and it's our problem. Unfortunately, we have to live with,

1816
03:22:30,834 --> 03:22:34,463
but there's some advocacy going on with that, and hopefully we

1817
03:22:34,963 --> 03:22:37,096
can move forward with that in the future. But I'm just looking at the core

1818
03:22:37,596 --> 03:22:41,827
operation, the general policing. You know, if we stick with the mayor's

1819
03:22:42,327 --> 03:22:45,050
solution to this, you know, we're going to be looking at close to a 20%

1820
03:22:45,355 --> 03:22:48,578
increase next year based on the projected

1821
03:22:49,078 --> 03:22:54,688
numbers in the forecast. If we keep it as is with the 20.5%,

1822
03:22:54,736 --> 03:22:58,810
you're, you're sitting there looking at like a roughly a 5%

1823
03:22:59,082 --> 03:23:02,835
increase next year. Uh, so I'm

1824
03:23:03,335 --> 03:23:06,287
looking at like, let's come up with a, a middle ground here.

1825
03:23:06,704 --> 03:23:09,884
Let's not, you know, pull the full $1 million. I'm,

1826
03:23:10,157 --> 03:23:13,962
I'm proposing, and I don't know what the exact numbers are

1827
03:23:14,251 --> 03:23:17,591
unfortunately, it's, you know, I'm trying to go through it and,

1828
03:23:17,703 --> 03:23:20,834
and figure out based on the things. I'm sure our treasurer can come up with

1829
03:23:21,334 --> 03:23:25,137
an appropriate number, but I'm looking at at least pulling

1830
03:23:25,330 --> 03:23:30,162
a minimum of maybe,

1831
03:23:30,772 --> 03:23:34,207
maybe 5, maybe $600,000, you know, kind of meet it

1832
03:23:34,707 --> 03:23:37,128
halfway. So at this time we do have a motion on the floor, though.

1833
03:23:37,192 --> 03:23:40,033
Are you going to move to amend the motion, or do you want to have

1834
03:23:40,533 --> 03:23:43,195
this motion voted and then we decide from there? I just want to be very

1835
03:23:43,291 --> 03:23:44,880
clear about direction at the start. The problem is,

1836
03:23:45,875 --> 03:23:49,037
without doing the math, I don't know where it's going to sit at and how

1837
03:23:49,101 --> 03:23:52,777
it projects it in the new, new year. Because if— okay,

1838
03:23:52,793 --> 03:23:56,599
so that based on my numbers like, and I'm just trying to do it from

1839
03:23:56,695 --> 03:24:00,149
what I— the information I gather. If we do like about a half,

1840
03:24:00,647 --> 03:24:04,390
like half it, we might be sitting at like a 10

1841
03:24:04,422 --> 03:24:08,117
to 12% increase next year. So I'm trying to

1842
03:24:08,617 --> 03:24:11,780
meet in the middle. The middle, obviously I realize

1843
03:24:11,828 --> 03:24:15,073
this is kicking the can down the road, but at the same time it gives,

1844
03:24:15,571 --> 03:24:19,908
you know, us as well as future councils the opportunity to figure

1845
03:24:20,408 --> 03:24:24,420
out a solution moving forward with that about bearing the brunt of it now

1846
03:24:24,920 --> 03:24:28,760
or bearing the brunt of it next council, because like, quite honestly,

1847
03:24:29,260 --> 03:24:32,920
we'll be— both options are going to be not the best

1848
03:24:33,420 --> 03:24:35,460
solution. So I'm just trying to be in the middle. So I don't know if

1849
03:24:35,960 --> 03:24:38,960
I just want to ask a question because you didn't mention something.

1850
03:24:39,680 --> 03:24:43,080
Uh, Director Gittings, when Councilor Burkett is suggesting that next year it's going

1851
03:24:43,580 --> 03:24:46,970
to be a 20%, is that a guarantee or is that just based on,

1852
03:24:47,020 --> 03:24:50,360
on what? Just assuming all things being equal? I'm just trying to understand where this

1853
03:24:50,860 --> 03:24:53,294
20% increase next year that idea is coming from,

1854
03:24:55,126 --> 03:24:58,466
because again, I'm just trying to understand where that

1855
03:24:58,676 --> 03:25:02,877
increase is all coming from. By all means, Councilor Perkup. So basically

1856
03:25:03,087 --> 03:25:09,773
how I was coming to that calculations is we have a forecast of the 7.6

1857
03:25:10,273 --> 03:25:13,946
million next year for the operational of the general, and then I base that off

1858
03:25:14,446 --> 03:25:17,949
of if we, um, reduced the— what you're pulling

1859
03:25:17,970 --> 03:25:21,286
doing, and then taking in consideration only

1860
03:25:21,319 --> 03:25:24,717
doing next year, keeping it

1861
03:25:25,217 --> 03:25:29,684
kind of at either the same, the 2.8, or just—

1862
03:25:30,121 --> 03:25:32,888
I just want to point out, because if you look at— you're talking about the

1863
03:25:33,388 --> 03:25:36,867
CPS budget, I'm talking about the town budget. So I'm just trying to understand

1864
03:25:37,367 --> 03:25:40,731
the CPS budget. Oh, okay. So I'm not talking about the overall town, I'm talking

1865
03:25:41,231 --> 03:25:45,095
about the CPS budget. And if we, if we did what you were

1866
03:25:45,192 --> 03:25:48,866
suggesting And we, we kept it and we kept the reserve

1867
03:25:48,915 --> 03:25:52,145
at the 2.8. We could be looking

1868
03:25:52,258 --> 03:25:55,303
at a 20% increase. So that's what I understand. Where is

1869
03:25:55,319 --> 03:25:59,629
that fact coming from? That's just based on where

1870
03:25:59,677 --> 03:26:03,929
we are today, like reducing the number to the 7.6.1.

1871
03:26:04,754 --> 03:26:07,717
And then you look at what we're going to have to grow towards next year,

1872
03:26:08,415 --> 03:26:13,092
which is the 7.7.687

1873
03:26:13,592 --> 03:26:17,265
million. Million. I, I'm just going to confirm with Director Giddings, is that fair that

1874
03:26:17,765 --> 03:26:20,131
we're going to see a 20% close to, uh,

1875
03:26:20,581 --> 03:26:24,341
budget next year on the tax levy? And does that—

1876
03:26:24,535 --> 03:26:27,591
is that like a guarantee, or are we making a bunch of sort of crystal

1877
03:26:27,607 --> 03:26:30,518
ball predictions right now based on a bunch of factors we don't know?

1878
03:26:34,018 --> 03:26:37,898
Uh, thank you. Yes, through you. Um, so I,

1879
03:26:37,995 --> 03:26:40,904
I can't speak too much because I think it's the police budget. So, and I

1880
03:26:41,404 --> 03:26:45,139
know the the staff there had sort of indicated it would be around 20%.

1881
03:26:45,364 --> 03:26:49,228
I think maybe the other way to look at it is by utilizing those

1882
03:26:49,728 --> 03:26:53,206
reserves and then not having that reserve allocation in 2027

1883
03:26:53,302 --> 03:26:56,301
would at the very least result in a 13% increase.

1884
03:26:56,381 --> 03:27:00,181
So that's without any staffing increases or any other cost increases.

1885
03:27:00,326 --> 03:27:03,501
So in terms of the 20%, again, I think that might

1886
03:27:04,001 --> 03:27:07,847
be more applicable for the police to answer that. Follow-up question, Mr. Gittings. Did we

1887
03:27:08,347 --> 03:27:13,813
not receive a draft library budget that said if we didn't get a 38% increase

1888
03:27:14,313 --> 03:27:17,154
increase, then they would be forced to close 1.5 days. Was that something the town

1889
03:27:17,202 --> 03:27:20,658
received originally? Um, through you, I did—

1890
03:27:20,950 --> 03:27:24,735
sorry, it wasn't 38%. I think it was, um, the Cobourg Library

1891
03:27:25,235 --> 03:27:28,520
would leave their original draft, uh, be able to meet the mayor's directive of 3%.

1892
03:27:28,941 --> 03:27:32,097
They would indicate they would be required to close for a day and a half

1893
03:27:32,597 --> 03:27:36,492
a week. Yet here we are with a slightly larger increase and

1894
03:27:36,992 --> 03:27:40,378
yet no service reductions. Was that done through a negotiation compromise

1895
03:27:40,394 --> 03:27:41,349
with yourself and staff?

1896
03:27:43,540 --> 03:27:48,035
Through you. So I'd met a few times with

1897
03:27:48,083 --> 03:27:51,107
the CEO of the library, and we just went through their budget,

1898
03:27:52,138 --> 03:27:56,104
tried to identify a few line items that maybe they could reduce to get

1899
03:27:56,604 --> 03:28:00,519
down to the 3%. Now, they did come in at 3.41%, but they

1900
03:28:01,019 --> 03:28:04,133
were able to cut back in other areas. I think, in fairness,

1901
03:28:04,472 --> 03:28:07,634
I guess their budget is maybe quite a bit smaller, and they have some

1902
03:28:08,134 --> 03:28:11,603
different service level requirements than the police. I'm not sure if it's

1903
03:28:12,103 --> 03:28:14,271
it's apples to apples, but not comparing the two. I just want to be very

1904
03:28:14,303 --> 03:28:17,336
clear, in no way— I'm just trying to understand that here we had a

1905
03:28:17,836 --> 03:28:21,638
prediction from a department that said that this had to happen, and yet

1906
03:28:22,167 --> 03:28:24,976
we were able to find a way to not have that happen. So is that—

1907
03:28:25,476 --> 03:28:28,716
I'm just alluding to Mr. Burkett's point that while we're suggesting

1908
03:28:28,748 --> 03:28:32,520
there is a 20% increase next year, that would be up to the next budget,

1909
03:28:33,082 --> 03:28:37,142
the next CPS board, which will be a new— and a new chief

1910
03:28:37,319 --> 03:28:40,706
and, and new council. So again, I just want to be very careful

1911
03:28:41,206 --> 03:28:45,010
by making assumptions about what the budget cycle will happen when we've seen

1912
03:28:45,026 --> 03:28:48,223
just in this budget cycle expectations and then

1913
03:28:48,336 --> 03:28:51,163
realities being very different. So, by all means,

1914
03:28:51,212 --> 03:28:54,361
Councilor Buro. Um, the CAO, uh,

1915
03:28:55,743 --> 03:28:59,053
showed us what and why we automatically have a 4%

1916
03:29:00,145 --> 03:29:04,066
with staffing. That's inevitable. And then what

1917
03:29:04,566 --> 03:29:08,099
if for the reserves now it would be just kicked down the road?

1918
03:29:08,581 --> 03:29:12,782
So So I— to me, it, it's totally

1919
03:29:13,282 --> 03:29:16,911
understandable. No, 100% agree that for 3— it'll be 4 years, I would

1920
03:29:17,411 --> 03:29:18,904
suggest, of kicking it down the road instead of just 3.

1921
03:29:26,310 --> 03:29:30,013
Which brings me to my point. This is the correction year, and I

1922
03:29:30,513 --> 03:29:33,297
don't want to put that on the new chief, new board, new council. No,

1923
03:29:33,377 --> 03:29:36,645
you want to put it on the tax levy and the tax

1924
03:29:37,145 --> 03:29:41,595
taxpayer. Next question. Inevitable. It's— well,

1925
03:29:41,676 --> 03:29:44,414
you interrupted and you didn't let me finish. Please finish.

1926
03:29:46,089 --> 03:29:47,814
It's inevitable it's going to come from the taxpayer.

1927
03:29:50,618 --> 03:29:55,220
The— we've gone to the province, we've gone to the ministry, we've gone to everywhere

1928
03:29:55,720 --> 03:29:59,353
we possibly can to get more funding. It's, it's going to be

1929
03:30:00,064 --> 03:30:03,343
ultimately on the taxpayer, which it should have been on for the past 4

1930
03:30:03,540 --> 03:30:07,168
years, and actually before that. So this is the

1931
03:30:07,668 --> 03:30:10,877
correction year, that's what I'm saying. And to your

1932
03:30:11,377 --> 03:30:15,598
point, Councillor Buro, we've heard from Councillor Darlan beside you that because of this budget,

1933
03:30:15,614 --> 03:30:18,986
more and more people within our community are asking for a costing

1934
03:30:19,486 --> 03:30:23,418
from the OPP. So I guess that's my concern, is that I support

1935
03:30:23,918 --> 03:30:27,480
the CPS, I want to see the CPS continue, and I'm looking for ways to

1936
03:30:27,980 --> 03:30:31,476
reduce the impact on the average taxpayers so that they're not looking for alternatives,

1937
03:30:31,893 --> 03:30:35,166
that they are instead continuing to support our frontline officers.

1938
03:30:35,519 --> 03:30:39,513
Because no one— and I'll be very clear, it's inappropriate in my

1939
03:30:40,013 --> 03:30:43,684
opinion to expect a 20.5% increase with and

1940
03:30:44,184 --> 03:30:47,326
having the entirety land after $2.8 million are already being pulled.

1941
03:30:47,872 --> 03:30:51,353
And this contention that my— the $1 million that this council is

1942
03:30:51,401 --> 03:30:54,224
moving— again, guys, this council will decide to do it, not I.

1943
03:30:54,690 --> 03:30:58,518
This is just a suggestion. Question, but I find it unusual that you,

1944
03:30:59,131 --> 03:31:02,934
uh, Councillor, are having an issue with $1 million when over

1945
03:31:03,434 --> 03:31:07,497
the last 4 years you've been charged with moving almost $10 million out of saving

1946
03:31:07,594 --> 03:31:10,982
potentials. So why is it the $1 million that this council's thinking

1947
03:31:11,482 --> 03:31:15,080
about moving is so detrimental, yet the $10 million

1948
03:31:15,112 --> 03:31:18,007
that the board has moved over in 4 years was of no concern?

1949
03:31:20,056 --> 03:31:23,806
Well, that's an inaccurate statement. Of course there was of concern. Of course

1950
03:31:24,306 --> 03:31:27,916
there was a debate over and over again, of course.

1951
03:31:28,045 --> 03:31:31,513
And this is what we came up with. And you're right,

1952
03:31:31,834 --> 03:31:34,820
there— should we have done it last year? Yeah, we should have.

1953
03:31:35,125 --> 03:31:38,337
But it's this year, so it's the right thing to

1954
03:31:38,837 --> 03:31:42,720
do. Although 20.5% is

1955
03:31:42,833 --> 03:31:46,124
a lot. Nobody wants to bring this budget to council,

1956
03:31:46,606 --> 03:31:50,375
not, not me, not anybody. But it is to rectify

1957
03:31:50,875 --> 03:31:55,008
it for the future. And as we've seen, and we said last

1958
03:31:55,508 --> 03:31:58,870
year or next year, if we did it this way,

1959
03:31:59,271 --> 03:32:02,781
we're looking at maybe a 5 or 6% increase,

1960
03:32:02,797 --> 03:32:05,330
which would work out to a 1 or 2% on the levy.

1961
03:32:05,939 --> 03:32:09,465
So to me, this is— it is the right thing to

1962
03:32:09,965 --> 03:32:13,168
do. Yes, we should have done it before, but we can't deplete

1963
03:32:13,616 --> 03:32:17,369
the reserves even though there's still $400,000 in there. There, there's a

1964
03:32:17,869 --> 03:32:20,885
lot of issues that we need those reserves for. If there

1965
03:32:21,286 --> 03:32:24,674
happens to be, um, a major crime

1966
03:32:25,174 --> 03:32:28,400
that happened, a murder, anything, we would need those reserves to,

1967
03:32:28,849 --> 03:32:32,366
to be able to handle it instead of going, wait a sec guys,

1968
03:32:32,799 --> 03:32:36,219
we have to call an emergency meeting in order to get some reserves

1969
03:32:36,315 --> 03:32:39,543
off or get some money off of the town. Fair enough. I think

1970
03:32:40,043 --> 03:32:42,000
we've had a good back and forth, so I'm going to move on to Councilor

1971
03:32:42,500 --> 03:32:45,119
work out. Um,

1972
03:32:45,992 --> 03:32:48,595
so I'm willing to put an amendment on the floor.

1973
03:32:51,313 --> 03:32:53,803
Um, so at this point, this will be an amendment to an amendment. Would you

1974
03:32:54,303 --> 03:32:56,614
prefer instead to deal with the motion and then make a new motion, or would

1975
03:32:57,114 --> 03:32:59,860
you prefer to make an amendment to the amendment? Sure, we can deal with the

1976
03:33:00,052 --> 03:33:03,459
main motion, and then I can make another amendment, or if that is— if

1977
03:33:03,959 --> 03:33:05,415
that's easier. Councilor Matani, you had a question?

1978
03:33:09,082 --> 03:33:12,359
Um, not so much a question but a comment,

1979
03:33:12,616 --> 03:33:16,456
Mr. Mayor. So, um, I have,

1980
03:33:17,034 --> 03:33:21,007
you know, read about the concerns of the community requesting,

1981
03:33:21,297 --> 03:33:24,760
you know, exploration of something that Councillor

1982
03:33:25,260 --> 03:33:29,283
Darling said, uh, at the beginning of this conversation about perhaps

1983
03:33:29,783 --> 03:33:34,668
splitting between this year and next year. Mr. Mayor, I see, I see value in

1984
03:33:34,700 --> 03:33:38,425
that because a new council, rather than being handed,

1985
03:33:38,474 --> 03:33:42,086
okay, we've solved all your problems, I think the new council needs

1986
03:33:42,182 --> 03:33:46,586
to grapple with the state

1987
03:33:46,843 --> 03:33:51,085
of the servicing to our community and

1988
03:33:51,599 --> 03:33:55,618
how, if any changes or how

1989
03:33:56,118 --> 03:33:59,686
things evolve with regards to the needs

1990
03:33:59,798 --> 03:34:03,240
of the community. On one hand, I'd like to know

1991
03:34:03,304 --> 03:34:06,579
what the amendment is, but I think it's up to

1992
03:34:06,595 --> 03:34:10,592
the— to the councillor to decide whether he

1993
03:34:10,624 --> 03:34:13,754
would like to go forward. There's nothing saying we can't

1994
03:34:14,254 --> 03:34:16,081
move an amendment. Let's deal with the motion, then we move forward with that.

1995
03:34:17,109 --> 03:34:20,496
Yeah, let's get the motion up. And again, there's— guys, we're going to

1996
03:34:20,996 --> 03:34:22,968
call a vote is what I'm hearing. We'll move on a vote on this.

1997
03:34:23,064 --> 03:34:26,307
This doesn't— if this passes, there's no need to split it because it's done.

1998
03:34:26,692 --> 03:34:29,981
If it doesn't pass, then another motion can be moved. Forward. Very straightforward here,

1999
03:34:30,030 --> 03:34:33,318
ladies and gentlemen. So final reading. This is a

2000
03:34:33,818 --> 03:34:38,242
motion that was moved by Councilor Buro. He put— this is, this is amended

2001
03:34:38,387 --> 03:34:41,595
because the motion is the budget. And so what they

2002
03:34:42,095 --> 03:34:45,108
are amending is the budget. And so it's in— every time we put an amendment

2003
03:34:45,608 --> 03:34:48,669
forward is a motion to amend the budget document. As we said, it's just a

2004
03:34:48,717 --> 03:34:52,631
draft until this council chooses to be finished amending it. It does

2005
03:34:52,647 --> 03:34:56,095
not become the budget, and it is the council's budget once it is finished

2006
03:34:56,595 --> 03:34:59,833
the amendments. At this present, all you're doing is amending the mayor's draft.

2007
03:34:59,881 --> 03:35:02,063
And as I As I said, we don't have to do that. We could also

2008
03:35:02,563 --> 03:35:05,054
go back to start from scratch and go line by line again. I'm, I'm open

2009
03:35:05,554 --> 03:35:09,017
to it. I'm just saying that it's this council's option to amend us. So we've

2010
03:35:09,517 --> 03:35:12,683
got an amendment put forward by Councilor Buro, was seconded by Deputy Mayor Beatty.

2011
03:35:13,181 --> 03:35:16,411
I'm open to any other further comments or conversations. I've asked for a recorded

2012
03:35:16,911 --> 03:35:19,824
vote on this, and for clarity, this is about going back and putting the full

2013
03:35:20,441 --> 03:35:22,517
20.5% back onto the levy.

2014
03:35:25,345 --> 03:35:27,809
Any other questions or concerns? No returns. Then I hand it over to Mr.

2015
03:35:27,859 --> 03:35:30,194
Larimer, as I was the one who recorded— called the recorded vote.

2016
03:35:31,953 --> 03:35:35,561
Yes, through you, Mr. Mayor, would you like me or Council to read the rules

2017
03:35:35,594 --> 03:35:38,717
of recorded vote? I think we've all done this enough times to know the rules,

2018
03:35:38,749 --> 03:35:42,493
sir, and I like that you've created easy-to-fill-out forms so that we're

2019
03:35:42,993 --> 03:35:45,627
ready for them. Yes. Um,

2020
03:35:45,916 --> 03:35:49,387
recorded vote. Uh, so this is, uh, amendments to the,

2021
03:35:49,773 --> 03:35:53,242
uh, Mayor's budget per Section 6.1 Municipal Act,

2022
03:35:53,258 --> 03:35:55,045
Section 730, Reg 530-2022.

2023
03:35:56,687 --> 03:35:59,925
Amendment to the budget, a vote requested by Mayor

2024
03:36:00,425 --> 03:36:04,037
Cleveland. Votes will be in a clockwise rotation as we're in council chambers.

2025
03:36:04,610 --> 03:36:08,433
Yes, an affirmative. No, as opposed. All votes

2026
03:36:08,933 --> 03:36:12,273
verbal. No abstention. Abstention would be a vote in the negative.

2027
03:36:12,644 --> 03:36:15,121
Starting with Mayor Cleveland. I'm going to abstain.

2028
03:36:19,250 --> 03:36:20,827
Um, Councillor Buro.

2029
03:36:23,384 --> 03:36:24,875
Yes.

2030
03:36:26,626 --> 03:36:28,797
Councilor Darling? No.

2031
03:36:33,159 --> 03:36:34,855
Councilor Burkett? No.

2032
03:36:36,648 --> 03:36:38,580
Councilor Mouton? No.

2033
03:36:40,467 --> 03:36:41,280
Councilor Barber?

2034
03:36:46,060 --> 03:36:47,914
No. Deputy Mayor Beatty? Yes,

2035
03:36:50,060 --> 03:36:53,337
is defeated. So at this time, we will move to another motion that

2036
03:36:53,837 --> 03:36:56,951
anyone can move to put in. Noting to Councilor Burkett, by all means,

2037
03:36:56,983 --> 03:37:00,359
motion to go forward, sir. I'd like

2038
03:37:00,859 --> 03:37:05,102
to put a motion on the floor that we take an additional

2039
03:37:05,602 --> 03:37:09,257
$600,000 out of the business service reserve,

2040
03:37:09,385 --> 03:37:14,173
or You're

2041
03:37:14,673 --> 03:37:18,126
looking to balance it, Mr. Burkett, split in the middle. So what you would suggest,

2042
03:37:18,335 --> 03:37:21,677
if I may, what you're looking to do is to not have the $1 million,

2043
03:37:21,725 --> 03:37:25,088
instead leave $500,000 behind or something. You'll pick the amount that you would

2044
03:37:25,588 --> 03:37:28,888
like to leave behind and move his motion at that amount. That would be what

2045
03:37:29,388 --> 03:37:33,501
you're asking, unless I'm mistaken.

2046
03:37:33,550 --> 03:37:40,461
And please, so I want to reduce it by Funds.

2047
03:37:40,670 --> 03:37:44,035
Yes, that's correct. So to

2048
03:37:44,535 --> 03:37:48,123
confirm, you're looking to simply only add a 2% increase

2049
03:37:48,623 --> 03:37:51,889
to the levy. So that would take us from a 2.7 to a 4.7 levy,

2050
03:37:51,905 --> 03:37:55,046
is that correct, Councillor? Yes, basically. Obviously,

2051
03:37:55,255 --> 03:37:59,566
Director Giddings can give us the exact number, whatever that is, but this is essentially

2052
03:37:59,582 --> 03:38:02,515
what I would like. We— while Mr.

2053
03:38:02,563 --> 03:38:04,823
Giddings— to give him a second to do the math. I just need a seconder

2054
03:38:05,323 --> 03:38:09,126
of that motion. Seconded by Deputy Mayor. It's now on the Mr.

2055
03:38:09,174 --> 03:38:12,006
Gittings, the number would be— I know it's just over 300, so do we have

2056
03:38:12,506 --> 03:38:15,015
an exact percentage that this would then add to the levy?

2057
03:38:17,147 --> 03:38:18,720
Yes, through you, Mr. Mayor,

2058
03:38:20,837 --> 03:38:23,255
the total levy would then be 4.52%. Sorry,

2059
03:38:25,073 --> 03:38:27,751
what was the total levy going to be then? 4.52%.

2060
03:38:28,563 --> 03:38:31,940
4.52%. Okay, well, as I said, this is

2061
03:38:31,973 --> 03:38:35,516
the council's budget to decide. Recording vote, I will call again,

2062
03:38:36,129 --> 03:38:39,597
and if there's any other comments, by all means we can make

2063
03:38:40,097 --> 03:38:43,768
them now. Okay, so the recorded

2064
03:38:44,268 --> 03:38:46,318
vote added, we're ready to go.

2065
03:38:49,329 --> 03:38:51,440
So I'm— or do I just start since I called the recorded vote, or do

2066
03:38:51,940 --> 03:38:55,027
you want to, do you want to speak? A vote requested, uh,

2067
03:38:55,562 --> 03:38:59,197
by Mayor Cleveland. Mayor Cleveland, on this case

2068
03:38:59,697 --> 03:39:01,427
I will say no. No, I do not agree with this.

2069
03:39:03,450 --> 03:39:05,352
Um, Councillor Buro? Yes.

2070
03:39:06,933 --> 03:39:09,513
Councillor Darling? Yes.

2071
03:39:10,803 --> 03:39:12,524
Councillor Burkett? Yes.

2072
03:39:14,436 --> 03:39:16,637
Councillor Boutin? Yes.

2073
03:39:17,955 --> 03:39:18,678
Councillor Barber?

2074
03:39:22,336 --> 03:39:25,074
No. And Deputy Rabbidi?

2075
03:39:26,966 --> 03:39:30,402
Yes. Carried. So to confirm, that vote has now

2076
03:39:30,450 --> 03:39:32,950
increased the budget from 2-point-what to what,

2077
03:39:33,514 --> 03:39:37,416
Director Giddings? So now we are sitting at a 4.52%

2078
03:39:37,562 --> 03:39:41,211
council budget. Noted.

2079
03:39:41,824 --> 03:39:44,534
Okay. Um,

2080
03:39:45,696 --> 03:39:49,099
pizza's here. Apparently we have a break. It looks like we're moved. We're finished with

2081
03:39:49,599 --> 03:39:53,527
the police budget at this time. So we'll take a rest,

2082
03:39:53,591 --> 03:39:56,626
I guess, till what, half an hour, everybody? Is that

2083
03:39:57,126 --> 03:39:59,821
enough time to hammer some pizza and get through this? Thank you very much.

2084
03:40:00,078 --> 03:40:02,984
And to all the visitors and those online, we will see you in 30 minutes.

2085
04:15:35,430 --> 04:15:36,163
might have to go.

2086
04:15:39,481 --> 04:15:43,167
Okay, thank you. Welcome back, members of council. Councilor Burkett is in the

2087
04:15:43,523 --> 04:15:47,369
area, just finishing up a phone call. So we are going to continue on.

2088
04:15:47,433 --> 04:15:50,096
First of all, we do need a motion to extend past 4, so moved by

2089
04:15:50,596 --> 04:15:53,937
Councilor Barber. Do I have a seconder right now? So seconded by Deputy Mayor Beatty.

2090
04:15:54,437 --> 04:15:56,759
With the members of council I have present, I'm going to move to a vote.

2091
04:15:57,372 --> 04:16:00,500
Simply, the vote is to extend the meeting past 4 hours as

2092
04:16:01,000 --> 04:16:03,208
of right now. Staff have put that forward because technically we're coming up on it,

2093
04:16:03,224 --> 04:16:05,377
so this processes to extend past 4-hour meeting.

2094
04:16:07,250 --> 04:16:09,805
We don't have to if you don't want to. Again, this is the council's meeting.

2095
04:16:09,853 --> 04:16:13,265
I'm happy to follow the direction of council. So, seeing no further questions or

2096
04:16:13,765 --> 04:16:17,201
comments, all in favor of the motion to extend? So moved. Uh, Mr.

2097
04:16:17,250 --> 04:16:19,440
Larimer, that takes us to where we need to be. So at this point,

2098
04:16:20,020 --> 04:16:23,692
I turn it over to council for any further amendments, for discussion,

2099
04:16:23,950 --> 04:16:25,298
for conversation, or for decisions.

2100
04:16:29,501 --> 04:16:31,305
We're up to whatever you guys would like to be up to.

2101
04:16:33,140 --> 04:16:36,368
Well, maybe— Council Bureau, by all means.

2102
04:16:38,821 --> 04:16:41,259
All right,

2103
04:16:42,130 --> 04:16:45,467
through you, Your Worship, to Director Giddings,

2104
04:16:46,665 --> 04:16:49,322
how much is left in the reserve fund for Northam?

2105
04:17:00,362 --> 04:17:03,959
Um, sorry, through you, uh, to the councillor. So at

2106
04:17:04,185 --> 04:17:05,563
December 31st,

2107
04:17:05,806 --> 04:17:09,899
2024, the amount remaining

2108
04:17:09,948 --> 04:17:13,774
in the Northam Industrial Park Reserve account is approximately $974,000.

2109
04:17:16,350 --> 04:17:17,312
$974,000.

2110
04:17:21,925 --> 04:17:23,774
If just a follow-up question,

2111
04:17:27,136 --> 04:17:30,980
um, if we took $500,000 out of that and added that to

2112
04:17:31,480 --> 04:17:35,020
the levy, how much would that work out to?

2113
04:17:43,245 --> 04:17:47,465
So, uh, through you to the councillor, so taking $500,000

2114
04:17:47,675 --> 04:17:51,479
out of the Northam Industrial Park Reserve account That would reduce the levy

2115
04:17:51,511 --> 04:17:53,258
by 1.51%.

2116
04:17:55,149 --> 04:17:58,351
Again, I would offer that— I strongly advise against that as

2117
04:17:58,383 --> 04:18:02,405
the treasurer. I think I've indicated in separate reports from staff

2118
04:18:02,905 --> 04:18:06,406
that continually using Northam Industrial Park to

2119
04:18:06,906 --> 04:18:10,898
reduce the operating cost is not advisable. It's not a long-term strategy.

2120
04:18:11,576 --> 04:18:14,755
Northam Industrial Park does require those funds for long-term capital

2121
04:18:14,803 --> 04:18:18,663
infrastructure needs. So again, as the treasurer,

2122
04:18:18,679 --> 04:18:21,937
I would advise against that. Follow-up.

2123
04:18:23,276 --> 04:18:27,165
I totally understand what you're saying, and we've had a lot of talk about reserves

2124
04:18:27,280 --> 04:18:30,803
today, but I would like to throw that amendment on

2125
04:18:30,835 --> 04:18:33,849
the floor and for discussion of

2126
04:18:34,783 --> 04:18:38,490
using $500,000 out of the northern reserves. Okay,

2127
04:18:38,506 --> 04:18:42,100
so the motion is to increase the northern draw by

2128
04:18:42,422 --> 04:18:46,185
approximately $500,000 to offset the cap, uh, the tax

2129
04:18:46,685 --> 04:18:50,287
levy. Um, do I have a seconder of that motion at this time?

2130
04:18:51,271 --> 04:18:54,915
Uh, as chair, if no one else wants to, I'm happy to second

2131
04:18:55,415 --> 04:18:58,365
it so we can have a conversation again. So I'll pass the,

2132
04:18:59,535 --> 04:19:03,144
um, chair over to Deputy Mayor, and I will second the motion.

2133
04:19:05,248 --> 04:19:08,962
Thank you. So we have the amendment on, on the We have the

2134
04:19:08,994 --> 04:19:12,443
amendment on the floor. We heard the remarks from the treasurer. Are there

2135
04:19:12,943 --> 04:19:16,663
any other questions or comments? We're just gonna go to the director first, then I

2136
04:19:16,695 --> 04:19:19,471
see Councilor Darling, Councilor Mouton, Director Gittings.

2137
04:19:20,209 --> 04:19:24,765
Sorry, through you, I should have mentioned this initially, but we are forecasting

2138
04:19:24,781 --> 04:19:28,728
significant capital infrastructure requirements coming through Northern Industrial Park.

2139
04:19:29,049 --> 04:19:32,803
As you can understand, it's aging infrastructure. So we are looking at,

2140
04:19:32,884 --> 04:19:36,510
you know, $3 or $4 million in required infrastructure needs. So I

2141
04:19:37,010 --> 04:19:40,755
do want to emphasize that. Emphasize that continuing to take funds from Northam will

2142
04:19:40,852 --> 04:19:43,212
compromise those infrastructure needs going forward.

2143
04:19:44,747 --> 04:19:47,898
Thank you. Uh, Councillor Darling. Yes, thank you.

2144
04:19:48,461 --> 04:19:52,752
Um, yes, I just wanted to confirm with the director treasurer,

2145
04:19:53,283 --> 04:19:56,841
um, we got $283,000 from there

2146
04:19:57,085 --> 04:20:01,841
into this year's budget. Is that correct? For— looks like 2025

2147
04:20:01,873 --> 04:20:05,860
committed $283,000. Is that off of the 9?

2148
04:20:09,820 --> 04:20:13,230
Yes, sorry, so I should have— that is correct. So on the

2149
04:20:13,730 --> 04:20:17,490
reserve analysis, that does show committed funds. So those are capital needs

2150
04:20:17,990 --> 04:20:21,470
that have been identified in the past that are ongoing. So the

2151
04:20:21,970 --> 04:20:25,490
$974,000 would be offset against that $270,000. So it's

2152
04:20:25,990 --> 04:20:28,870
probably a bit more, about $700,000. So again,

2153
04:20:29,370 --> 04:20:32,890
not to keep repeating myself, but taking that $500,000 would deplete

2154
04:20:33,390 --> 04:20:36,801
that reserve down to about $200,000 remaining. Meaning. Yes, thank you. Well,

2155
04:20:37,090 --> 04:20:40,783
we were, we were against depleting— or some of us were against depleting the

2156
04:20:41,283 --> 04:20:45,039
police reserve rate down to nothing. So I don't think it's good management to deplete

2157
04:20:45,539 --> 04:20:48,893
the Northern Reserve down to nothing. Thank you. Thank you,

2158
04:20:48,909 --> 04:20:52,329
Councillor Darling. I have to agree, especially we have to remember what

2159
04:20:52,829 --> 04:20:56,585
we're looking at, at on December 17th, to a regular council meeting with respects

2160
04:20:57,085 --> 04:21:00,776
to some incoming possible decisions around our

2161
04:21:01,276 --> 04:21:04,356
reserve spend and policy My comments aside, I apologize,

2162
04:21:04,548 --> 04:21:08,206
Councilor Tanya, you're the next in queue. Yes, I just would like to point out

2163
04:21:08,222 --> 04:21:11,720
that in the mayor's budget format for, um,

2164
04:21:12,795 --> 04:21:16,710
operating, on page 15, I note

2165
04:21:16,822 --> 04:21:20,528
that, uh, the transfer from the

2166
04:21:21,028 --> 04:21:25,663
Northam draw, uh, proposed is $750,000

2167
04:21:25,871 --> 04:21:29,529
already, and that is a quarter million dollars more

2168
04:21:29,722 --> 04:21:32,973
than the staff had actually suggested. And I

2169
04:21:33,135 --> 04:21:35,895
guess I'll— I just point that out as a statistic.

2170
04:21:38,086 --> 04:21:41,264
Thank you, Councilor Maton. Mayor Cleveland. Yeah, I just want a chance to sort of

2171
04:21:41,764 --> 04:21:44,539
address that. Uh, good catch, Councilor Maton. So that, as I said, was one of

2172
04:21:45,039 --> 04:21:48,617
the 3 things that I did direct staff to change from the original budget.

2173
04:21:49,131 --> 04:21:52,810
Um, that was specific to sort of applying apples

2174
04:21:52,842 --> 04:21:55,975
to apples in the sense that, um, if you've noticed

2175
04:21:56,475 --> 04:22:00,346
in the budget when it came to the police sort of increase being at 20.5.

2176
04:22:00,811 --> 04:22:04,727
I've moved to move reserves from the police to cover that. This council

2177
04:22:04,743 --> 04:22:07,921
chose to reduce that. That's okay. On the other side,

2178
04:22:08,017 --> 04:22:12,206
we saw a large increase required under fire, not crazy

2179
04:22:12,706 --> 04:22:15,897
but substantial. And so my suggestion was again similar

2180
04:22:16,397 --> 04:22:20,375
to what I was applying to the police services, using police reserves to fund and

2181
04:22:20,455 --> 04:22:24,403
reduce the impact on the tax levy from the police board. So too I

2182
04:22:24,643 --> 04:22:28,654
suggest to the Treasurer and put forth in the draft budget that we

2183
04:22:29,154 --> 04:22:32,649
maintain the current pool, not increase it, simply maintain it.

2184
04:22:32,745 --> 04:22:36,611
So, Councillor Mouton, just to be very clear, the pool was increased

2185
04:22:36,659 --> 04:22:40,092
from staff budget to a higher amount, but that amount is

2186
04:22:40,141 --> 04:22:43,686
the same pool as the previous year that this council decided upon.

2187
04:22:44,199 --> 04:22:47,392
So it wasn't an increase from previous years. It was a maintenance of the same

2188
04:22:47,504 --> 04:22:50,199
pool from the year, just not a reduction as staff had suggested.

2189
04:22:50,328 --> 04:22:53,715
So this would be an ancillary to that, an additional

2190
04:22:54,309 --> 04:22:57,696
$500,000, the motion. And I'll just, if it's, if I may,

2191
04:22:57,937 --> 04:23:01,276
Chair, speak to why I wanted to second this. I think it's a good conversation.

2192
04:23:02,111 --> 04:23:05,418
I stick with the fact that we need to get the lowest possible levy to

2193
04:23:06,044 --> 04:23:09,977
the tax base. I've used this reference before and I'll use

2194
04:23:10,477 --> 04:23:13,477
it again. When it comes to reserves, it's kind of like it's always good to

2195
04:23:13,493 --> 04:23:16,736
build them. It's always important to have them, just like it's always good to have

2196
04:23:17,236 --> 04:23:19,767
teenagers who who have part-time jobs and you teach them how to save.

2197
04:23:20,393 --> 04:23:24,161
But at the end of the day, when your teenager just keeps coming back and

2198
04:23:24,661 --> 04:23:28,106
asking for $10 for clothes and $10 for McDonald's and $10 and $10 and $10,

2199
04:23:28,491 --> 04:23:31,313
when they're sitting on a couple thousand in savings, at what point as a parent

2200
04:23:31,813 --> 04:23:34,552
do you say, you know, we're going to use some of your savings to pay

2201
04:23:34,600 --> 04:23:37,727
for your, your needs and your wants? So that's the equivalent is the way I

2202
04:23:38,227 --> 04:23:41,816
look at it. And in today's financial issues, I,

2203
04:23:42,137 --> 04:23:45,517
I'm for anything to reduce that levy. And if this is the

2204
04:23:46,017 --> 04:23:49,765
suggestion by Councilor Buro, then I support it. Thank you for your

2205
04:23:50,265 --> 04:23:54,063
comments. Councilor Tunn. Yes, I, I can't support— cannot

2206
04:23:54,111 --> 04:23:58,024
support it at this time because the Budget Task Force actually

2207
04:23:58,442 --> 04:24:01,055
pointed out how valuable an asset Northam is.

2208
04:24:01,749 --> 04:24:05,186
And, and I hear what our Director of Finance

2209
04:24:05,219 --> 04:24:09,070
has said. I think to consider this motion at this

2210
04:24:09,119 --> 04:24:12,108
point in the budget, maybe a little bit later later this afternoon,

2211
04:24:12,769 --> 04:24:15,895
uh, to reconsider it. But at this time, I cannot support it.

2212
04:24:17,332 --> 04:24:20,501
Thank you for the commentary. Any other insights?

2213
04:24:20,582 --> 04:24:23,458
Okay, I'll call a vote.

2214
04:24:24,568 --> 04:24:27,499
I'm going to make it a recorded vote, if that's okay, Chair. Yes. Uh,

2215
04:24:27,596 --> 04:24:31,855
so over to Mr. Larimer, starting with member

2216
04:24:32,355 --> 04:24:34,980
who called it. I don't believe we need the procedural rules, so over to you,

2217
04:24:35,029 --> 04:24:38,103
Mr. Larimer. Um, Mayor Yvonne? Yes.

2218
04:24:39,060 --> 04:24:41,737
Sorry, yes. Uh, Councilor Buro?

2219
04:24:43,359 --> 04:24:46,413
Yes. Councilor Darling? No.

2220
04:24:48,298 --> 04:24:49,861
Councilor Burkett? No.

2221
04:24:52,633 --> 04:24:54,477
Councilor Mouton? No.

2222
04:24:57,909 --> 04:24:58,622
Councilor Barber?

2223
04:25:02,994 --> 04:25:04,435
Yes. Deputy Mayor No,

2224
04:25:05,773 --> 04:25:09,624
it's defeated. Thank you very much.

2225
04:25:09,786 --> 04:25:13,024
If I may, Deputy Mayor. Thank you. I'll resume the chair. Um,

2226
04:25:13,491 --> 04:25:15,955
another amendment, by all means, Councilor Darling.

2227
04:25:16,937 --> 04:25:20,673
Um, just wanted to point out here regarding

2228
04:25:21,365 --> 04:25:24,500
the task force, one of their suggestions was

2229
04:25:24,597 --> 04:25:27,248
closing Centennial Pool, $138,000.

2230
04:25:30,799 --> 04:25:34,904
Their— one of their comments was equitable community

2231
04:25:35,404 --> 04:25:38,480
spending. Programs or services that cater to very small groups

2232
04:25:38,496 --> 04:25:41,864
should not be disproportionately funded by the taxes. I assume

2233
04:25:41,880 --> 04:25:45,648
that to be the community grants. I could be mistaken, which is

2234
04:25:45,713 --> 04:25:49,288
$50,000. I mentioned the tree planting this morning,

2235
04:25:49,401 --> 04:25:51,950
that putting it off a year is $99,000.

2236
04:25:52,688 --> 04:25:55,847
So just pointing out to the public, and the mayor mentioned in just

2237
04:25:56,347 --> 04:25:59,613
a to go wants versus needs. That's a total

2238
04:25:59,661 --> 04:26:00,668
of $237,960,

2239
04:26:04,232 --> 04:26:07,445
which is close, you know, just below 1% of the levy.

2240
04:26:08,104 --> 04:26:11,783
So again, it's gonna, it's gonna come to a point where tough decisions

2241
04:26:12,283 --> 04:26:15,843
have to be made, and I'm just putting that out

2242
04:26:16,343 --> 04:26:19,892
there, excuse me, as food for thought. If I may, I'm sorry, Deputy Mayor,

2243
04:26:20,023 --> 04:26:22,740
I have to ask you to resume the chair again. I have a very important

2244
04:26:23,240 --> 04:26:25,166
phone call coming in that hopefully will affect future budgets.

2245
04:26:27,752 --> 04:26:31,206
Thank you, Mayor Cleveland. Uh, so, Councilor Darling, was that just a comment at this

2246
04:26:31,706 --> 04:26:34,854
time, or do you have a prepared amendment? Food for thought for council. Appreciate that.

2247
04:26:36,107 --> 04:26:39,579
Other questions at this time? I have one. Oh,

2248
04:26:40,307 --> 04:26:43,787
just, um, going through— sorry, we're just going through questions or

2249
04:26:44,287 --> 04:26:47,886
organized amendments at this time. Going through this, uh, Director Giddings,

2250
04:26:48,308 --> 04:26:51,714
the $10,000 multi-year commitment we've made to the

2251
04:26:52,214 --> 04:26:56,782
fair share— Northumberland Fair Share Food Banks via an MOU in

2252
04:26:56,814 --> 04:26:59,416
the dedicated page where fair share is listed.

2253
04:26:59,804 --> 04:27:03,723
I'm having a hard time finding where that multi-year $10,000 commitment

2254
04:27:04,223 --> 04:27:07,422
is. Yes. If we're talking about

2255
04:27:07,922 --> 04:27:11,132
that, I have to call a conflict. Okay.

2256
04:27:12,685 --> 04:27:16,099
So noted. Okay. Yes,

2257
04:27:16,406 --> 04:27:18,509
to you, Chair. So,

2258
04:27:20,787 --> 04:27:24,257
The $10,000 with the MOU with the Fair Share Food Bank,

2259
04:27:24,760 --> 04:27:28,651
that is incorporated into the budget. It's under the community grants

2260
04:27:28,894 --> 04:27:33,040
section. So I think in previous iterations

2261
04:27:33,540 --> 04:27:37,186
of the budget, there was a separate section specifically related to the

2262
04:27:39,084 --> 04:27:42,667
food bank. Now it is incorporated under the grants.

2263
04:27:42,748 --> 04:27:46,976
I can find a page. Page 59.

2264
04:27:49,242 --> 04:27:53,294
So I can confirm that then that $10,000 is

2265
04:27:53,342 --> 04:27:57,246
factored into the annual grants program. It's in the 2025 projection

2266
04:27:57,746 --> 04:28:00,037
balance, and we've incorporated in the 2026 budget as well.

2267
04:28:04,606 --> 04:28:07,999
If I may ask, is that page 59 on the staff version of the budget

2268
04:28:08,113 --> 04:28:12,102
or the mayor's version? Mayor's budget. That in

2269
04:28:12,602 --> 04:28:15,911
my package in operations. Yes,

2270
04:28:16,589 --> 04:28:17,864
is seniors activity.

2271
04:28:20,629 --> 04:28:21,536
Yes. So,

2272
04:28:25,181 --> 04:28:28,568
okay, thank you. Is it page 60 of the mayor's budget

2273
04:28:29,068 --> 04:28:32,315
under culture and community? That has the concert band, the art gallery,

2274
04:28:32,332 --> 04:28:33,660
concert hall. Yeah.

2275
04:28:35,826 --> 04:28:39,597
Yeah, but I think the page numbers are

2276
04:28:40,097 --> 04:28:42,630
off between— Yes, yes. So 60,

2277
04:28:43,866 --> 04:28:46,595
I think it's page. All right.

2278
04:28:47,878 --> 04:28:52,180
So are you saying, Director Giddings, the community grants, the $50,000 amount includes

2279
04:28:52,292 --> 04:28:54,539
10? Yeah. Thank you. Okay.

2280
04:28:55,277 --> 04:28:57,973
Okay. I may. Yep.

2281
04:28:58,936 --> 04:29:02,146
So I just wanted to— I did have a question on this

2282
04:29:02,646 --> 04:29:06,442
because there is actually a specific page for the

2283
04:29:06,942 --> 04:29:09,692
food bank, and it does not mention the amount there.

2284
04:29:11,538 --> 04:29:14,871
Uh, through you, Chair, to the Councillor. Yes, so I, I had mentioned that we

2285
04:29:15,371 --> 04:29:18,804
just updated the budget sheet. So although that sheet indicates that there is nothing in

2286
04:29:18,836 --> 04:29:22,123
there, it is incorporated under the, the community grant section.

2287
04:29:22,965 --> 04:29:24,958
So it's just, it's been allocated to a different section.

2288
04:29:28,189 --> 04:29:31,377
And then if I may, Director Giddens, to follow up on that. So the community

2289
04:29:31,877 --> 04:29:35,344
grants is $50,000 total less $10,000 for the fair share,

2290
04:29:35,424 --> 04:29:38,892
it gives us $40,000. Later, somewhere else in the

2291
04:29:39,392 --> 04:29:43,067
staff submission pages, it had $40,000 for

2292
04:29:43,567 --> 04:29:47,145
community grants, and then there was a line item that said $10,000 for

2293
04:29:47,161 --> 04:29:50,999
mid-year. So then we're really looking at the community grant

2294
04:29:51,499 --> 04:29:54,596
pool for the application purposes, should that proceed,

2295
04:29:55,029 --> 04:29:57,919
is $30,000, is the working envelope.

2296
04:29:59,774 --> 04:30:02,634
Uh, yes, that's correct. Thank you. All right,

2297
04:30:03,054 --> 04:30:06,577
uh, questions for members of council? Is there anything on the fair share?

2298
04:30:06,625 --> 04:30:09,112
Otherwise, I'll welcome Councilor Buro back.

2299
04:30:11,386 --> 04:30:14,981
Okay, if Councilor Buro is behind

2300
04:30:15,159 --> 04:30:20,981
the curtain— there he is. I just— Councilor

2301
04:30:21,481 --> 04:30:24,933
Darling, um, just a question for clarity, if I could,

2302
04:30:25,067 --> 04:30:29,484
to the director. Director of Parks and Rec, or Director Giddings,

2303
04:30:32,210 --> 04:30:35,631
um, page 53 of this, the CCC, um, I guess I'm,

2304
04:30:35,937 --> 04:30:39,552
I'm still working off the staff. I'm hoping they're the same pages. Shows general

2305
04:30:39,649 --> 04:30:42,263
ice rentals, and it shows an increase of $492,748.

2306
04:30:45,889 --> 04:30:51,916
I'm just trying to figure out how it went up $492,000.

2307
04:31:03,269 --> 04:31:06,645
Um, sorry, through you, Chair, to the Councillor. So, um, part of

2308
04:31:07,145 --> 04:31:09,408
that increase is catching up with the current year. So if you look at the

2309
04:31:09,908 --> 04:31:13,737
2025 projection balance, it shows about $783,000

2310
04:31:13,754 --> 04:31:17,398
as projected for 2025. And so I think we budgeted $782,000.

2311
04:31:18,620 --> 04:31:20,425
Um, and then I think as well, if you look at 2024,

2312
04:31:22,910 --> 04:31:26,403
the actual balance was a little bit less than $600,000. So part

2313
04:31:26,903 --> 04:31:30,396
of that increase is just catching up for actuals. We've also had user fee increases

2314
04:31:30,428 --> 04:31:33,165
as well, and there is some timing delay with that. Just when we do the

2315
04:31:33,665 --> 04:31:36,760
user fee increase for 2025 wasn't done

2316
04:31:36,792 --> 04:31:39,258
till a bit later, and so you're seeing a bit of catch up with some

2317
04:31:39,307 --> 04:31:41,053
of the user fee increases as well. Okay.

2318
04:31:46,159 --> 04:31:47,839
Other questions? Councillor Tahn.

2319
04:31:50,488 --> 04:31:54,623
Yes, thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to preface this that

2320
04:31:55,123 --> 04:31:58,168
I did indicate at the beginning of our gathering today that I had 4 pages

2321
04:31:58,428 --> 04:32:01,879
of questions. I'm looking to the clerk for

2322
04:32:02,186 --> 04:32:06,155
protocol on this. I thank staff and

2323
04:32:06,301 --> 04:32:08,850
the CAO for responding to my questions,

2324
04:32:09,608 --> 04:32:11,930
quite a number of them, not all of them. I still have a few left

2325
04:32:12,430 --> 04:32:16,037
to ask, but, um, I, with regards to procedure,

2326
04:32:16,181 --> 04:32:19,898
I'm perfectly fine in making my list of questions public.

2327
04:32:21,228 --> 04:32:24,881
I would need staff approval to make their

2328
04:32:24,993 --> 04:32:28,454
responses public, and I just look to

2329
04:32:28,954 --> 04:32:32,283
the clerk on the protocol for that. It could be, you know,

2330
04:32:32,299 --> 04:32:35,263
part of meeting minutes, or however, uh,

2331
04:32:35,728 --> 04:32:39,172
the public might be interested in knowing all my questions and the responses

2332
04:32:39,672 --> 04:32:43,482
from staff. Many of them were questions of clarification

2333
04:32:43,982 --> 04:32:47,893
And, uh, but I, I look to the clerk for a

2334
04:32:48,393 --> 04:32:48,495
suggestion.

2335
04:32:53,558 --> 04:32:56,840
Uh, through you, Chair, I'm not sure I have an answer right now for you.

2336
04:32:56,905 --> 04:33:00,186
I'd have to, um, because this is a— it's a statutory

2337
04:33:00,686 --> 04:33:04,345
meeting. This is a unique situation regards to the strong mayor budget.

2338
04:33:05,008 --> 04:33:08,144
Um, that's really the only document. And as this council knows, we did have to

2339
04:33:08,644 --> 04:33:13,107
have an opinion on having a staff budget here as well too. So questions like

2340
04:33:13,607 --> 04:33:15,603
like that. Um, I'm not sure how, um, through the agenda or minutes we could

2341
04:33:16,103 --> 04:33:19,360
make that public, but there may be opportunity, maybe working, um, the council the

2342
04:33:19,860 --> 04:33:23,166
next special round. These include as part of the public engagement part of it.

2343
04:33:23,214 --> 04:33:26,136
Council decides to go that route, that might be an option to put it somewhere

2344
04:33:26,329 --> 04:33:29,797
on those frameworks. I'm coming back if council has another meeting. If not,

2345
04:33:29,813 --> 04:33:33,426
we solve it tonight. So, um, I think maybe put that on hold

2346
04:33:33,490 --> 04:33:36,011
until later today. We kind of understand that.

2347
04:33:37,408 --> 04:33:41,101
Councilor Tahn. So I'm ready to ask my questions that do not

2348
04:33:41,601 --> 04:33:45,259
have answers. And just for everybody's information,

2349
04:33:45,773 --> 04:33:48,984
I used the mayor's version of the operating budget,

2350
04:33:49,771 --> 04:33:53,223
and then I also noted which page on the

2351
04:33:53,723 --> 04:33:57,221
staff version the same item appears.

2352
04:33:57,478 --> 04:34:01,364
So, um, I'll just—

2353
04:34:01,492 --> 04:34:04,688
just before we do that, I only have one last question. Sure, absolutely,

2354
04:34:04,880 --> 04:34:08,141
go ahead. If there's nobody else, we can— floor is yours.

2355
04:34:08,960 --> 04:34:11,530
Just on page 39 of the mayor's budget,

2356
04:34:12,092 --> 04:34:16,670
I'm looking at affordable housing assistance.

2357
04:34:18,051 --> 04:34:21,874
We are at a healthy reserve

2358
04:34:21,890 --> 04:34:25,118
balance of $750,000. I am pleased to see

2359
04:34:25,618 --> 04:34:29,182
that we continue to contribute $125,000, which, with a recovery from

2360
04:34:29,214 --> 04:34:32,603
Holdco, so it's net to the Um,

2361
04:34:33,008 --> 04:34:36,507
but I don't know if council has the appetite to talk about this,

2362
04:34:36,718 --> 04:34:39,213
or I will find a way to bring this forward through a future notice of

2363
04:34:39,245 --> 04:34:45,007
motion. Um, we're sitting on $750,000

2364
04:34:45,635 --> 04:34:49,323
for affordable housing amidst an affordability

2365
04:34:49,823 --> 04:34:53,657
crisis and a backlog in housing. I say that, you know, I know my

2366
04:34:53,754 --> 04:34:57,170
role. I know the jurisdiction of Cobourg. Um, we have

2367
04:34:57,670 --> 04:35:00,945
a somewhat idling CIP program, which I know has to

2368
04:35:01,445 --> 04:35:05,537
have a major rehaul or rethink. I don't

2369
04:35:06,037 --> 04:35:09,230
know if staff want to speak to that at all, or if other members of

2370
04:35:09,730 --> 04:35:12,779
council, if there's an appetite for discussion here.

2371
04:35:13,469 --> 04:35:17,018
Otherwise, I will work with the clerk to figure out

2372
04:35:17,518 --> 04:35:21,305
how to package this up and bring it forward through a future notice

2373
04:35:21,353 --> 04:35:21,883
of motion.

2374
04:35:26,888 --> 04:35:30,672
Are you asking if we have the appetite to cancel the CIP

2375
04:35:30,736 --> 04:35:34,488
for now and use the reserves that

2376
04:35:34,988 --> 04:35:38,063
you're talking about? Appreciate the question. No appetite not to,

2377
04:35:38,736 --> 04:35:42,119
um, not to cancel it, not to pause it, because again, it doesn't impact

2378
04:35:42,619 --> 04:35:45,775
anything that's coming from recoveries. I think I'm answering my own question, Councilor Borough,

2379
04:35:45,807 --> 04:35:48,917
when I said that out loud, is, um, I don't know if

2380
04:35:49,417 --> 04:35:53,134
it's germane to this meeting right now to start talking, doing design thinking around what

2381
04:35:53,984 --> 04:35:59,580
that looks like. I just find it amazing that we have $750,000

2382
04:35:59,596 --> 04:36:02,050
in a reserve for affordable housing,

2383
04:36:02,948 --> 04:36:06,300
and I feel like every other week at a council meeting we have

2384
04:36:06,332 --> 04:36:09,058
people coming at us with affordable projects,

2385
04:36:09,202 --> 04:36:12,891
and we're, we're putting it aside. I don't

2386
04:36:13,391 --> 04:36:16,563
think we're doing our part in investing in our own housing strategy, but that's just

2387
04:36:16,595 --> 04:36:17,477
my opinion.

2388
04:36:19,788 --> 04:36:24,284
I'm— yeah, I just want to follow up because I'm on page 39 and

2389
04:36:24,558 --> 04:36:29,232
there's only $119,994

2390
04:36:29,732 --> 04:36:32,887
left as of 2022. There had been disbursements to the developers.

2391
04:36:34,283 --> 04:36:37,723
That's a good point. I mean, that's obviously to Director Giddings. I read that as

2392
04:36:37,755 --> 04:36:41,147
$119,000 is what's the balance available from the 2022

2393
04:36:41,647 --> 04:36:44,682
program, and then there's the actual current day reserve balance.

2394
04:36:45,591 --> 04:36:48,298
I see the director nodding, but I never want to speak for staff.

2395
04:36:50,336 --> 04:36:52,844
Nope, that's correct. Yes,

2396
04:36:53,854 --> 04:36:57,811
what, what I said was correct. The two of

2397
04:36:57,846 --> 04:36:59,031
them together is correct.

2398
04:37:01,080 --> 04:37:04,151
Director Giddings, I shouldn't make fun of it. Could you clarify and confirm what the

2399
04:37:04,651 --> 04:37:07,912
true numbers are? Yes, uh,

2400
04:37:08,357 --> 04:37:11,290
through you, Chair, to clarify, yes, you are are correct.

2401
04:37:13,140 --> 04:37:17,319
You can move on. Um, anything else on— otherwise

2402
04:37:17,431 --> 04:37:22,831
I will— am

2403
04:37:22,879 --> 04:37:27,064
I the only one having this feeling and an observation about this

2404
04:37:27,564 --> 04:37:29,545
amount in our reserves? Councilor Metan?

2405
04:37:31,091 --> 04:37:34,275
Just a general comment, um, based on feedback,

2406
04:37:34,730 --> 04:37:38,063
uh, recently, earlier in this term of council,

2407
04:37:38,713 --> 04:37:42,654
uh, I think we need to be a little bit more definitive on

2408
04:37:42,686 --> 04:37:46,403
qualifications for these monies. I'm just looking at our Director

2409
04:37:46,452 --> 04:37:49,993
of Development, and I believe that

2410
04:37:50,297 --> 04:37:53,694
before we make a decision to disburse any of this,

2411
04:37:53,806 --> 04:37:57,347
we need to be very, very clear on the rules moving forward.

2412
04:37:57,427 --> 04:38:01,032
The province has changed some rules, um, uh, so I

2413
04:38:01,532 --> 04:38:05,327
don't, uh, Madam Chair, I don't know if the developer— or sorry, the director

2414
04:38:06,080 --> 04:38:10,217
would like to speak to this, but I would perhaps pause, and, and maybe

2415
04:38:10,669 --> 04:38:13,282
Council could look at this amount, uh,

2416
04:38:13,799 --> 04:38:17,722
over the next year if there's any qualifying projects. But my sense

2417
04:38:17,835 --> 04:38:20,977
is that we need, uh, we need to revamp our rules

2418
04:38:21,236 --> 04:38:21,949
for qualification.

2419
04:38:25,846 --> 04:38:28,694
Through the chair to Councilor Mouton, so I think if it's the direction of Council,

2420
04:38:28,919 --> 04:38:32,023
you could ask us staff to bring back a report on what we could do

2421
04:38:32,136 --> 04:38:35,514
with the monies that in there for the affordable housing initiative

2422
04:38:36,014 --> 04:38:39,386
now. There are some projects that potentially could meet that consideration, and I

2423
04:38:39,886 --> 04:38:42,629
think there's some options for us to look at. So I think the best course

2424
04:38:43,129 --> 04:38:45,437
of action would be for staff to bring back a report and present some options

2425
04:38:45,470 --> 04:38:49,042
to Council and get some further direction. Thank you,

2426
04:38:49,106 --> 04:38:52,613
Director Larimer. Can we make that motion here? No, that's a non— okay,

2427
04:38:52,871 --> 04:38:56,297
I'll make note of that for a future notice of motion. Councillor Bureau.

2428
04:38:56,876 --> 04:39:01,230
Thank you, Director. I do agree. Agree that

2429
04:39:01,730 --> 04:39:04,248
the affordable, that plan is very important.

2430
04:39:05,205 --> 04:39:09,164
My, I guess my question is, if there's $750,000

2431
04:39:09,664 --> 04:39:13,698
in there, would it, will it be used from next

2432
04:39:14,198 --> 04:39:18,034
year? Like, is that, is that the thing? Because if not, would the new

2433
04:39:18,050 --> 04:39:21,301
council want to start that up and we put that onto the

2434
04:39:21,801 --> 04:39:25,150
levy? And I'm just, I'm just talking

2435
04:39:25,183 --> 04:39:28,512
here. I'm not saying do it or not. If there's no projects

2436
04:39:29,012 --> 04:39:31,868
that's coming up that will use that, or we have to go for a report

2437
04:39:32,368 --> 04:39:36,091
back and we don't know how long that'll take— not saying

2438
04:39:36,107 --> 04:39:39,816
that you're not quick because you could— I'm just saying there is a

2439
04:39:40,316 --> 04:39:43,798
lot of work being done— would that put us in the lame duck period?

2440
04:39:44,231 --> 04:39:47,668
And if so, then, then would

2441
04:39:48,168 --> 04:39:51,457
that money, instead of just be sitting there, would it not be better on the

2442
04:39:51,957 --> 04:39:55,406
levy to reduce it down a bit. I just— as

2443
04:39:55,583 --> 04:39:59,527
talking, I'm just thinking, if there's nothing going to happen with it until the new

2444
04:40:00,027 --> 04:40:03,163
council comes in, then what would be the point of holding

2445
04:40:03,179 --> 04:40:04,627
it when we could take it off the levy?

2446
04:40:07,516 --> 04:40:12,863
That's fair. I think we just get back into past practice where it's—

2447
04:40:12,879 --> 04:40:16,253
that's a one-time contribution to pay it down. Or just other

2448
04:40:16,269 --> 04:40:20,206
school of thought is— other line of thought is, do we continue to plan

2449
04:40:20,335 --> 04:40:23,700
for it knowing that a future program or

2450
04:40:24,200 --> 04:40:27,854
qualifying projects would come forward? I don't know, it's— I'm neither here nor there.

2451
04:40:28,063 --> 04:40:31,758
We don't need to— we have more real-time items we

2452
04:40:32,258 --> 04:40:36,337
can go to. But well, then I'll make

2453
04:40:36,837 --> 04:40:41,905
that amendment just to throw it out there, to take the $750,000

2454
04:40:42,405 --> 04:40:43,117
in reserve. What was that?

2455
04:40:50,995 --> 04:40:54,984
7:42. I'm, I'm just throwing this out for more discussion to put that—

2456
04:40:56,151 --> 04:40:57,853
what would that work out to?

2457
04:41:01,878 --> 04:41:05,515
Well, if we did

2458
04:41:06,015 --> 04:41:07,439
the $500,000, it would be 1,

2459
04:41:07,794 --> 04:41:11,028
1.45 be the same as the Northern.

2460
04:41:11,611 --> 04:41:14,884
We did that, um, which would drop

2461
04:41:15,176 --> 04:41:17,287
the tax levy down to 3.07.

2462
04:41:19,777 --> 04:41:22,429
And I'm not— I'm just throwing it out there if it's just going to be

2463
04:41:22,929 --> 04:41:26,891
sitting idle anyways. And then the new council could decide on their next budget

2464
04:41:29,194 --> 04:41:32,858
just as a way to drop the levy. And to be honest,

2465
04:41:33,653 --> 04:41:36,919
um, I know

2466
04:41:37,419 --> 04:41:41,046
this, this is, um, a county council issue, and I know that when you brought

2467
04:41:41,078 --> 04:41:44,161
this up, this is a great idea, but we're just not at

2468
04:41:44,661 --> 04:41:48,833
there or having any projects yet. So I'll

2469
04:41:48,881 --> 04:41:52,831
wait for a seconder to put the amendment on, and then I'll— seconder?

2470
04:41:53,281 --> 04:41:55,689
Mayor Tideland, do you want me to pass the chair back, or are you okay

2471
04:41:56,189 --> 04:41:58,258
if I just finish this through? I think you started it. I'm happy to let

2472
04:41:58,758 --> 04:42:02,069
you finish, and I'm just seconding to have that conversation Thank you. Sorry, just before

2473
04:42:02,569 --> 04:42:05,984
I call another member of council, I just— and

2474
04:42:06,064 --> 04:42:09,565
I want to make sure not to go into Pandora's box of debating

2475
04:42:09,633 --> 04:42:13,520
housing. Housing manager

2476
04:42:14,020 --> 04:42:17,072
of the county, absolutely. Council— this council cannot forget,

2477
04:42:17,120 --> 04:42:20,736
first of all, we have a housing strategy passed down to us from the

2478
04:42:21,236 --> 04:42:24,835
county. Like, at the end of the day, we still play a role in stimulating

2479
04:42:25,014 --> 04:42:28,016
and activating the building of housing.

2480
04:42:28,834 --> 04:42:32,157
Um, my only concern, and I really appreciate the creative thinking,

2481
04:42:32,221 --> 04:42:35,190
and I know Councillor Buro, you always just put things out there for a fulsome

2482
04:42:35,690 --> 04:42:39,444
discussion, so I appreciate the spirit of your amendment.

2483
04:42:40,070 --> 04:42:44,146
Um, however, to completely put aside

2484
04:42:44,339 --> 04:42:47,838
years of investment into a program that when

2485
04:42:47,934 --> 04:42:51,353
we do have an updated tool

2486
04:42:51,947 --> 04:42:55,644
and updated policies and eligible a lot of projects,

2487
04:42:55,983 --> 04:42:59,630
especially given the amount of nation-building vis-à-vis for housing coming

2488
04:42:59,678 --> 04:43:03,196
from the feds, or if the province ever said, what skin

2489
04:43:03,471 --> 04:43:06,375
in the game do you have? And we don't have money in the reserves to

2490
04:43:06,875 --> 04:43:10,570
check that box. Like, I know that was a big requirement of the housing accelerator

2491
04:43:10,586 --> 04:43:12,425
that we applied for last year, even though we weren't successful.

2492
04:43:13,716 --> 04:43:17,621
I would be— for

2493
04:43:17,750 --> 04:43:21,767
that, I can't even entertain the— and I can't give the message to the community

2494
04:43:22,444 --> 04:43:26,250
that we're not going to continue to be a partner, in housing,

2495
04:43:26,750 --> 04:43:31,130
whatever that may look like, once our programs are reimagined.

2496
04:43:31,590 --> 04:43:34,550
That's my statement, but any other comments? Otherwise,

2497
04:43:35,050 --> 04:43:40,550
I'll— Councilor Matong.

2498
04:43:41,050 --> 04:43:44,630
Um, based on changes from

2499
04:43:45,130 --> 04:43:47,870
the provincial government, especially this year,

2500
04:43:48,370 --> 04:43:52,266
also hearing from a about

2501
04:43:52,766 --> 04:43:56,417
a development project that affordable is deemed

2502
04:43:56,449 --> 04:44:00,214
to be market rate with

2503
04:44:00,714 --> 04:44:04,000
regards to rents. I have— I think we have a lot of questions to

2504
04:44:04,081 --> 04:44:07,385
answer. I don't think— and I don't— and I agree

2505
04:44:07,885 --> 04:44:12,882
with you, I don't want to get into the nitty-gritty, but I really

2506
04:44:12,980 --> 04:44:16,897
would support a staff report back. I don't—

2507
04:44:17,220 --> 04:44:20,399
I would rather not deplete this account, maybe,

2508
04:44:20,544 --> 04:44:23,126
you know, take out $500,000.

2509
04:44:23,594 --> 04:44:26,864
And but in theory, I do support the idea

2510
04:44:27,364 --> 04:44:28,485
proposed by Councillor Buro.

2511
04:44:39,024 --> 04:44:42,716
Councillor Darling. Yes, here we go again,

2512
04:44:42,749 --> 04:44:46,504
looking at reserves and whatnot. And my understanding when

2513
04:44:47,004 --> 04:44:49,423
we put the money away each year was we were putting that money away,

2514
04:44:49,487 --> 04:44:53,647
$125,000 to be used to support affordable

2515
04:44:53,679 --> 04:44:56,765
housing that year for whatever projects come forward.

2516
04:44:57,476 --> 04:45:00,772
But we've used a bit of it,

2517
04:45:01,015 --> 04:45:05,472
obviously, on page 39. But having

2518
04:45:05,972 --> 04:45:09,153
that money sitting there, to me, there's a massive amount,

2519
04:45:10,101 --> 04:45:14,319
and I think we could leave $242,000

2520
04:45:14,819 --> 04:45:18,140
there. Like you say, if a project does come forward and the government asks

2521
04:45:18,640 --> 04:45:21,820
us what skin we have in the game. But again, we've got

2522
04:45:22,320 --> 04:45:25,133
to try to get this levy down, and I think out of all the reserves,

2523
04:45:25,149 --> 04:45:28,543
that's one that we, we could take from.

2524
04:45:30,555 --> 04:45:33,019
Mayor Cleveland, two points if I may. First point is,

2525
04:45:34,339 --> 04:45:37,784
we, the skeletal, could have chosen to take the police reserves and then we wouldn't

2526
04:45:38,284 --> 04:45:40,290
be having this conversation. So that is an option we had. We've decided not to

2527
04:45:40,796 --> 04:45:44,369
as a council. Council, and that's fair. The, the other one I have

2528
04:45:44,498 --> 04:45:47,774
is the council is

2529
04:45:48,274 --> 04:45:51,582
saying when other levels of government come forward— correct me if I'm wrong,

2530
04:45:51,694 --> 04:45:54,912
but these are the kind of reserves that we could have used. Just recently we

2531
04:45:55,412 --> 04:45:58,856
had a group come forward about rental units, and they asked for delay of DCs

2532
04:45:59,488 --> 04:46:01,980
and potential, uh, sort of pushbacks.

2533
04:46:02,498 --> 04:46:05,314
These funds could be used for that as well, ladies and gentlemen. So I just

2534
04:46:05,814 --> 04:46:08,237
want to be clear, this doesn't have to be government to government, these funds could

2535
04:46:08,253 --> 04:46:11,497
also— any development project that comes forward that we want to

2536
04:46:11,997 --> 04:46:15,548
help with, potentially like the one we've heard from— I wish it was the

2537
04:46:16,048 --> 04:46:19,785
name of the group that just presented asking for— there's that

2538
04:46:20,285 --> 04:46:22,683
one. And we also just had another one. Pardon me, PlazaCom. That was the other

2539
04:46:23,183 --> 04:46:26,402
one. So PlazaCom came forward and asked for that specific help. So these funds

2540
04:46:26,418 --> 04:46:29,080
could be going to that. And I just wanted to point that fact out.

2541
04:46:29,532 --> 04:46:32,291
Uh, again, I'm— I just want to be very clear,

2542
04:46:32,614 --> 04:46:35,974
Mr. Darling, we do have other options. If this is the fund you think is

2543
04:46:36,008 --> 04:46:39,945
more, I'm actually siding with the Deputy Mayor while I definitely second into this motion

2544
04:46:40,445 --> 04:46:43,615
to get on the floor. I— we have the option to reduce the levy.

2545
04:46:44,132 --> 04:46:47,802
We have it from the police reserves. They're now

2546
04:46:48,013 --> 04:46:51,333
going to be sitting at over $1 million. This is lower. So again,

2547
04:46:52,427 --> 04:46:55,164
I'm open to reducing the tax levy at all costs. But at the end of

2548
04:46:55,664 --> 04:46:59,436
the day, I've been a big proponent of rental units. I've been a big proponent

2549
04:46:59,517 --> 04:47:02,854
of driving to more affordable development. So it's— I'm a bit

2550
04:47:03,354 --> 04:47:07,835
of in a quagmire here because I want to see a lower lower reduction,

2551
04:47:07,883 --> 04:47:10,703
which is why I use the police reserves in my draft.

2552
04:47:11,168 --> 04:47:14,757
This council's decided alternatively, and yet I know that I

2553
04:47:15,257 --> 04:47:18,218
can't afford the tax raises as a father, uh, and, uh,

2554
04:47:18,442 --> 04:47:21,679
currently, and that we need to find solutions. So I'm in a bit

2555
04:47:22,179 --> 04:47:24,851
of a quagmire. If this is the option that council puts forward, I'm, I may

2556
04:47:25,351 --> 04:47:28,905
actually support it because at this point, uh, I believe it could go to better

2557
04:47:29,434 --> 04:47:33,119
uses. But because the decisions to date, I'm probably going to support this

2558
04:47:33,619 --> 04:47:35,692
because again, it's about that ultimate tax Levy. Thank you.

2559
04:47:37,240 --> 04:47:41,016
Okay, thank you. I'm just gonna make that last point. Yeah, we're— I think Wednesday

2560
04:47:41,096 --> 04:47:44,355
at regular council, to the mayor's point, we have a few different projects.

2561
04:47:44,420 --> 04:47:48,228
We have cooperative housing coming in. We've all been having conversations

2562
04:47:48,293 --> 04:47:51,794
with Workforce Housing with relation to our own

2563
04:47:53,763 --> 04:47:57,017
land that we've designated. We don't always have to wait for the

2564
04:47:57,517 --> 04:48:00,660
county to do housing. I just— I don't know.

2565
04:48:02,155 --> 04:48:05,312
I, I, we're moving reserves around from this and this anyways. I'm just against it.

2566
04:48:05,377 --> 04:48:08,888
But so I'll— there's no other conversation. I will call a recorded vote on this.

2567
04:48:19,972 --> 04:48:24,058
A recorded vote requested by Deputy Mayor

2568
04:48:24,573 --> 04:48:28,143
Beatty, uh, starting with Deputy Mayor Beatty. No.

2569
04:48:29,903 --> 04:48:30,581
Mayor Cleveland.

2570
04:48:33,794 --> 04:48:36,910
Say yes. Uh,

2571
04:48:36,927 --> 04:48:40,873
Councilor Buro. Yes. Councilor Darling.

2572
04:48:41,957 --> 04:48:45,557
Yes. Councilor Burkett. No.

2573
04:48:48,328 --> 04:48:52,275
Councilor Mouton. Yes. And Councilor

2574
04:48:52,775 --> 04:48:56,340
Barber. Yes,

2575
04:48:56,840 --> 04:49:00,020
it's carried. Back to you, Mr. Mayor. Thank you,

2576
04:49:00,520 --> 04:49:04,240
Deputy Mayor. So, um, picking up where you left off, do we have another

2577
04:49:04,740 --> 04:49:09,300
amendment to be made? Another conversation?

2578
04:49:09,800 --> 04:49:11,780
By all means, questions. So we'll start with Councilor Muttan. I'm going to go to

2579
04:49:12,280 --> 04:49:15,680
Mr. Darling next. I have a question. Councilor Muttan.

2580
04:49:16,180 --> 04:49:18,800
Councilor Darling. Councilor Darling, I'm just going to write— I'm going to put a little

2581
04:49:19,300 --> 04:49:22,078
sign right here so when I look at you Do I see Councillor Furr?

2582
04:49:24,070 --> 04:49:27,081
By all means. So, just before you go, Councillor Mouton, I've got a quick question

2583
04:49:27,581 --> 04:49:31,575
for the DM. So sorry, folks. Obviously, the motion passed. I just wanted one question

2584
04:49:32,075 --> 04:49:35,939
of clarity. So, because the housing reserves have always come to holdco,

2585
04:49:35,955 --> 04:49:40,880
but they've already been transferred over, we're holding them in reserves. That $500,000

2586
04:49:41,042 --> 04:49:44,385
is coming out of our reserves, not holdco. Like, we've already banked

2587
04:49:44,885 --> 04:49:48,599
it, so it's moving. Yes.

2588
04:49:48,697 --> 04:49:52,626
Again, you are correct. That's how it would operate. Okay,

2589
04:49:52,644 --> 04:49:53,753
Councillor Mouton, the mic is yours.

2590
04:49:56,560 --> 04:49:58,770
Yes. Could you please tell me, Mr. Mayor, were you in the room when I

2591
04:49:58,851 --> 04:50:02,248
asked about sharing my questions and answers to these questions?

2592
04:50:03,580 --> 04:50:07,939
Because I've received responses from staff, but they're

2593
04:50:07,955 --> 04:50:09,624
not publicly available. Yes.

2594
04:50:12,669 --> 04:50:16,107
I didn't know. I can't see your light. That's why I, for some reason.

2595
04:50:16,364 --> 04:50:19,336
Oh yeah, I didn't hear it, but I've actually been reviewing. I saw the email

2596
04:50:19,836 --> 04:50:22,083
this morning. I read through it all, so I'm very comfortable going through. It's up

2597
04:50:22,583 --> 04:50:25,456
to you or this council. As I said, I leave the meeting to this council's

2598
04:50:25,956 --> 04:50:29,360
discretion. So what I was planning to do is any, any question

2599
04:50:29,392 --> 04:50:32,813
that I had that has not a reply, I will deal with that first and

2600
04:50:32,845 --> 04:50:36,797
then just allow councillors to

2601
04:50:37,006 --> 04:50:40,561
review the replies. If, if So if, if the

2602
04:50:41,061 --> 04:50:44,950
reply was simply a clarification, I won't be bringing

2603
04:50:44,999 --> 04:50:48,258
it up. So, um, uh,

2604
04:50:48,952 --> 04:50:53,942
let's see,

2605
04:50:54,184 --> 04:50:57,500
um, page 12, and I'm using the

2606
04:50:58,000 --> 04:50:59,748
mayor's version of the operating budget.

2607
04:51:08,866 --> 04:51:12,734
My question is, uh, there's a significant increase in consultant

2608
04:51:13,234 --> 04:51:16,700
cost for 2026. Um, is this related to,

2609
04:51:17,233 --> 04:51:20,046
uh, uh, uh, SMP directive?

2610
04:51:23,538 --> 04:51:26,910
Mr. Giddings, I think that's, uh, under your bracket of finance.

2611
04:51:30,295 --> 04:51:34,041
Uh, through you, Mr. Mayor, to the councillor. So no, that Nothing relates

2612
04:51:34,105 --> 04:51:37,300
to Strong Mayor Powers with regards to that. So that,

2613
04:51:38,343 --> 04:51:41,249
I think as you're aware, we did have a vacancy for the IT supervisor.

2614
04:51:41,329 --> 04:51:45,359
So we did have a third-party contract who was providing us some

2615
04:51:45,859 --> 04:51:49,179
assistance with some of our IT needs. And so you can see

2616
04:51:49,679 --> 04:51:53,273
that in the 2025 projected balance as well as the 2024 actual

2617
04:51:53,773 --> 04:51:57,639
costs in which we were utilizing those services. So we've budgeted again for 2026.

2618
04:51:57,703 --> 04:52:01,410
Now we do have an IT supervisor. So we are expecting

2619
04:52:01,910 --> 04:52:05,890
those costs to go down. Having said that, we have— there is still some value

2620
04:52:06,390 --> 04:52:07,643
in being able to utilize that consultant.

2621
04:52:11,800 --> 04:52:14,166
While you're getting the next question, Councilor Matala, I'm going to move it over to

2622
04:52:14,666 --> 04:52:17,129
Councilor Darling. I assume you have a question as well. Just try to keep it

2623
04:52:17,629 --> 04:52:21,541
balanced while you work your way through your questions. Thank you. Yes, I'm just

2624
04:52:21,558 --> 04:52:25,484
looking at one of— excuse me, one of the reserves

2625
04:52:25,549 --> 04:52:29,308
was Safe Start reserve. I just need

2626
04:52:29,808 --> 04:52:33,089
an explanation on that. I think that was related from the COVID days,

2627
04:52:33,202 --> 04:52:38,366
and— excuse me— is it still— you know, there's $271,000

2628
04:52:38,866 --> 04:52:42,288
there. Is there parameters for that as to

2629
04:52:42,368 --> 04:52:43,526
where and when it can be used?

2630
04:52:47,398 --> 04:52:50,218
I think this goes back to you, Mr. Gittings. I'm going to keep deferring to

2631
04:52:50,235 --> 04:52:52,539
you, the reserve king. We'll call you from now on.

2632
04:52:54,675 --> 04:52:56,170
And if I get the page on that, Councillor.

2633
04:53:04,670 --> 04:53:08,499
So, oh, thank you. Through you, Councillor,

2634
04:53:08,644 --> 04:53:10,745
or through you, Mr. Mayor, to the Councillor.

2635
04:53:12,542 --> 04:53:16,168
So this was one was a bit before my time, but from my understanding is

2636
04:53:16,184 --> 04:53:19,841
the reserve was used to offset some of the financial pressures as

2637
04:53:20,341 --> 04:53:24,806
a result of COVID-19. Now I do have a report going to council that

2638
04:53:25,306 --> 04:53:28,550
was done at the standing committee a couple weeks ago, and then is coming

2639
04:53:28,807 --> 04:53:31,956
Wednesday as well, where I've proposed about reallocating some of

2640
04:53:32,456 --> 04:53:35,940
these reserve balances because they haven't been utilized in many years.

2641
04:53:36,149 --> 04:53:39,684
So we're trying to consolidate some of them. So I believe that account is

2642
04:53:39,748 --> 04:53:43,701
listed in there. Well, that to me, that's a good one because a

2643
04:53:44,201 --> 04:53:47,566
lot of the problems we're into today were a result of COVID so,

2644
04:53:48,518 --> 04:53:52,325
and the budgets that came through at that time. So I'm just wondering if

2645
04:53:52,825 --> 04:53:55,567
it's— if, if it too is not a good allocation for this budget.

2646
04:54:05,549 --> 04:54:09,353
Sorry, I should clarify, like, I presume this reserve

2647
04:54:09,418 --> 04:54:12,828
would have been utilized for any operating deficits as a result of COVID-19.

2648
04:54:14,118 --> 04:54:17,598
Any, you know, public health pressures and things of that nature. So I'm not sure

2649
04:54:18,098 --> 04:54:21,625
if at this point, a few years post-pandemic, if we could argue our cost

2650
04:54:22,125 --> 04:54:23,202
increases are related to COVID.

2651
04:54:27,893 --> 04:54:31,235
Okay, so I'm going to sort of

2652
04:54:31,829 --> 04:54:34,921
ignore the laughter and go with the question. Is there any further questions?

2653
04:54:35,164 --> 04:54:40,320
It was just a statement that I should definitely 100%

2654
04:54:40,820 --> 04:54:44,201
I can agree that that is from COVID-related issues and expenses.

2655
04:54:44,265 --> 04:54:47,976
Like, I think at the year that

2656
04:54:48,024 --> 04:54:51,816
COVID hit and we were in lockdown, we came up with a 0% tax

2657
04:54:52,316 --> 04:54:55,929
increase for that year, which we're still— yeah,

2658
04:54:56,298 --> 04:54:59,704
which— what was that? Just negative. Yeah, the negative

2659
04:55:00,204 --> 04:55:03,463
increase. I think if we— if it's

2660
04:55:03,624 --> 04:55:09,467
just sitting there, why can't we put it on levy.

2661
04:55:09,581 --> 04:55:12,525
Um, through you, Mr. Mayor, to the Councillor,

2662
04:55:14,049 --> 04:55:18,539
um, I think approving a 0% tax

2663
04:55:19,039 --> 04:55:22,415
increase and deferring the cost isn't a result of COVID That's a result of a

2664
04:55:22,915 --> 04:55:26,503
decision by Council. But that's

2665
04:55:27,003 --> 04:55:30,361
not a decision of the cost, right? There's cost increases. Council made a decision at

2666
04:55:30,861 --> 04:55:32,464
that time to defer those cost increases.

2667
04:55:38,530 --> 04:55:41,002
Follow-up?

2668
04:55:42,520 --> 04:55:46,382
I think we're saying the same thing, um, but if that money is not

2669
04:55:46,882 --> 04:55:49,087
allocated for, for anything, like,

2670
04:55:49,168 --> 04:55:52,003
it's, it's sitting in a reserve, right?

2671
04:55:52,230 --> 04:55:55,020
It's just sitting there,

2672
04:55:56,524 --> 04:55:59,788
like, it's not earmarked for anything,

2673
04:56:01,266 --> 04:56:04,801
right? Uh, through you, Mr. Mayor, to the councillor. So as mentioned, I do have

2674
04:56:05,301 --> 04:56:08,757
a report coming on Wednesday where we are going to reallocate that reserve balance

2675
04:56:09,257 --> 04:56:12,823
because it hasn't been utilized. So we are going to likely reallocate that into

2676
04:56:12,855 --> 04:56:16,196
the infrastructure reserve account, which will be used to fund

2677
04:56:16,696 --> 04:56:19,615
some of our infrastructure going forward as identified in the asset management plan.

2678
04:56:25,368 --> 04:56:29,140
Councilor Matan, I recognize you while these individuals are working on the

2679
04:56:29,640 --> 04:56:32,960
next steps forward. By all means. Uh, could I make a suggestion

2680
04:56:32,992 --> 04:56:37,133
that we, we track these suggestions because we have

2681
04:56:37,326 --> 04:56:40,664
forthcoming information, uh, that would—

2682
04:56:41,081 --> 04:56:44,035
may it be— inform, uh, the decision,

2683
04:56:44,532 --> 04:56:48,480
and that this council be willing to meet again with

2684
04:56:48,980 --> 04:56:51,610
regards to finalizing this budget,

2685
04:56:51,835 --> 04:56:54,804
especially after we hear from the public. Does that make sense?

2686
04:56:55,446 --> 04:56:58,656
Um, just to be very clear, the process

2687
04:56:59,156 --> 04:57:02,701
from this point forward is at the will of this council. So should this council

2688
04:57:02,749 --> 04:57:06,617
wish to take notes and reconvene another meeting, this council has the ability to do

2689
04:57:07,117 --> 04:57:10,517
that. I believe under the SMP legislation, this council has up to 30

2690
04:57:10,549 --> 04:57:13,936
days to make as many amendments as they would like and host as

2691
04:57:13,984 --> 04:57:17,494
many meetings as they would like. Um, and so your point is taken,

2692
04:57:17,510 --> 04:57:20,795
and I would simply just offer back, by all means, take as many notes as

2693
04:57:21,295 --> 04:57:24,480
you'd like, take as many points as you'd like, and call as many meetings as

2694
04:57:24,496 --> 04:57:27,797
required. Um, as this is, as I said, I thought

2695
04:57:28,297 --> 04:57:29,752
I did a pretty good job ripping it all up and going, we don't have

2696
04:57:29,800 --> 04:57:33,021
to use this, this is just an idea, and it's up to this council,

2697
04:57:33,294 --> 04:57:36,835
uh, the final product that comes forth. So I, I think those are great

2698
04:57:37,335 --> 04:57:40,985
recommendations. I suggest, uh, this council decides amongst themselves how they

2699
04:57:41,485 --> 04:57:45,210
would like to to do that. Deputy Mayor. Thank you, Mayor Cleveland. On that

2700
04:57:45,258 --> 04:57:48,568
point, perhaps through you to either the CAO or Mr.

2701
04:57:48,632 --> 04:57:53,099
Lomber, Mr. Gittings, um, so knowing

2702
04:57:53,196 --> 04:57:56,457
that on Wednesday we're going to be entertaining, um,

2703
04:57:56,811 --> 04:58:00,008
some reserve and spend policies,

2704
04:58:00,667 --> 04:58:04,137
hypothetically, and I'm just going to say I'm assuming they're going to pass or with

2705
04:58:04,637 --> 04:58:07,415
some amendments, do they take effect for 2023?

2706
04:58:08,435 --> 04:58:12,391
And if so, how does that— what are those implications

2707
04:58:12,456 --> 04:58:13,424
for the budget process?

2708
04:58:15,640 --> 04:58:18,894
Because my concern is, and I was part of an era of council,

2709
04:58:18,910 --> 04:58:22,230
as all councils are, we make a decision over here and then

2710
04:58:22,730 --> 04:58:25,893
we go over here, we make this decision. So what I guess I'm trying

2711
04:58:26,393 --> 04:58:29,526
to commit to say is, if we make a decision on Wednesday, and that—

2712
04:58:29,671 --> 04:58:32,691
does that take effect into 2026? And if it does,

2713
04:58:32,804 --> 04:58:36,080
what are those implications? Because Council's been going— I

2714
04:58:36,580 --> 04:58:39,450
was already breaking some of those policies if we set them as of Wednesday,

2715
04:58:39,960 --> 04:58:40,680
in my opinion.

2716
04:58:43,380 --> 04:58:46,720
So the question, just to clarify, the question is asking— I just want to be

2717
04:58:47,220 --> 04:58:50,780
very clear— the— you're asking the Treasurer or the CAO about what's

2718
04:58:51,280 --> 04:58:53,640
happening moving forward? I just want to make sure the ask is clear. I,

2719
04:58:54,140 --> 04:58:55,940
I, I lost track. I apologize. So I'm just trying to understand the question,

2720
04:58:56,710 --> 04:58:59,480
and that's fair. I went on a bit of a ramble, so I'm just going

2721
04:58:59,980 --> 04:59:03,325
to restate. We have a meeting, so I guess it's twofold.

2722
04:59:03,661 --> 04:59:07,174
We have a meeting on regular council on Wednesday. We have some

2723
04:59:07,206 --> 04:59:10,478
policies around reserves and spending on

2724
04:59:10,978 --> 04:59:14,151
the table. First part question, if it passes,

2725
04:59:14,408 --> 04:59:17,712
do those policies or the bylaw come in effect for

2726
04:59:18,212 --> 04:59:22,042
2026? They do come into effect. What implications do

2727
04:59:22,542 --> 04:59:25,619
they have for our current budget conversations?

2728
04:59:25,763 --> 04:59:29,565
Does that make sense? I think that's a great— much clearer. Thank you.

2729
04:59:30,533 --> 04:59:32,949
I will let the Treasurer and the CAO answer,

2730
04:59:33,646 --> 04:59:35,965
if whoever would like to choose to take on that question.

2731
04:59:38,510 --> 04:59:40,834
Through you, Mr. Mayor, to the Deputy Mayor.

2732
04:59:42,850 --> 04:59:45,955
So with regards to Wednesday, we do have a reserve policy coming forward.

2733
04:59:46,036 --> 04:59:49,756
Now, the reserve policy is essentially following what we're doing now, which is like

2734
04:59:50,256 --> 04:59:53,738
reserve allocations are approved by Council through the budget process. So there really shouldn't be

2735
04:59:54,238 --> 04:59:57,483
too much of an impact. With regards to these discussions,

2736
04:59:58,236 --> 05:00:02,210
there is a recommendation coming forward which does

2737
05:00:02,242 --> 05:00:04,213
consolidate some of the reserve balances.

2738
05:00:05,623 --> 05:00:09,485
So if that's approved, that would take effect for 2025.

2739
05:00:09,533 --> 05:00:12,690
So some of the reserve accounts that we're looking at now— now,

2740
05:00:12,754 --> 05:00:16,248
having said that, sorry, I should add a lot of those allocations or reallocations are

2741
05:00:16,264 --> 05:00:19,501
going into the infrastructure reserve, which is— I need

2742
05:00:20,001 --> 05:00:23,318
to emphasize— is being utilized to fund fund some of the assets that

2743
05:00:23,818 --> 05:00:27,137
are identified in the asset management plan. So we have earmarked those

2744
05:00:27,169 --> 05:00:30,331
funds. So I am reluctant to, at this point, you know,

2745
05:00:30,524 --> 05:00:33,765
utilize any of those funds. And as I've indicated before, our reserves are

2746
05:00:33,813 --> 05:00:37,569
underfunded, so there's still a reluctance to be able to draw on those reserves.

2747
05:00:38,163 --> 05:00:41,565
If council is making a decision, for example, the safe restart, to use

2748
05:00:41,613 --> 05:00:44,935
that reserve, then I presume on

2749
05:00:44,983 --> 05:00:48,387
Wednesday we can sort of take that out of the recommendation. But again,

2750
05:00:48,435 --> 05:00:51,713
to emphasize, the report

2751
05:00:52,213 --> 05:00:55,410
is reallocating those funds for future capital infrastructure needs. So there is

2752
05:00:55,910 --> 05:00:59,258
a lot of reluctance on my end as treasurer to start transferring

2753
05:00:59,532 --> 05:01:01,789
those reserves to reduce the tax levy at this point.

2754
05:01:04,876 --> 05:01:08,866
Is that fair enough? I guess, um, just, yeah, I'm quite

2755
05:01:09,366 --> 05:01:12,922
okay. I guess I have a question, um, both to Deputy Mayor or

2756
05:01:12,954 --> 05:01:16,476
to Councilor Buro, depending on if you'd like to answer

2757
05:01:16,605 --> 05:01:19,341
it again, I want to be very clear, this is a question, not an accusation.

2758
05:01:19,438 --> 05:01:21,769
And if it comes across as such, I will rephrase.

2759
05:01:23,060 --> 05:01:25,706
I'm curious as to, Councilor Buro,

2760
05:01:26,303 --> 05:01:31,224
your move to not touch the police reserves and

2761
05:01:31,724 --> 05:01:35,131
yet your willingness to go at town reserves. And I'm wondering if perhaps

2762
05:01:35,180 --> 05:01:38,733
you could explain that to council or the

2763
05:01:39,233 --> 05:01:42,808
mayor. Where we're not willing to negotiate the reserves of the police

2764
05:01:43,308 --> 05:01:45,792
service that are ultimately at the disposal of this council,

2765
05:01:46,706 --> 05:01:49,995
yet you are willing to sort of have that conversation around reserves that are

2766
05:01:50,011 --> 05:01:53,910
based on the town requirements. I'm just trying to understand

2767
05:01:54,006 --> 05:01:56,878
why is it okay on one and not on the other? And I'm not accusing

2768
05:01:56,910 --> 05:02:00,199
that. I'm just asking if there's maybe a

2769
05:02:00,699 --> 05:02:03,954
definition or a clarification that can be made so that I can understand

2770
05:02:04,454 --> 05:02:07,328
the difference in your mind. Mind? Yeah,

2771
05:02:07,554 --> 05:02:10,084
um, well, with the police reserves,

2772
05:02:10,632 --> 05:02:13,678
there's different things that were— that could come up,

2773
05:02:14,033 --> 05:02:16,856
such as cyber attacks, which are very expensive.

2774
05:02:17,552 --> 05:02:20,803
Um, I know that, uh, a lot has happened in the

2775
05:02:21,303 --> 05:02:24,721
past to neighboring towns that cost millions of dollars. Um,

2776
05:02:25,808 --> 05:02:29,441
and from what we've had in the past with the police, such as,

2777
05:02:30,106 --> 05:02:33,929
um, the unfortunate

2778
05:02:34,429 --> 05:02:38,068
incidences that were major crimes that we needed to go into those reserves

2779
05:02:38,100 --> 05:02:41,084
to make sure that we have them instead of coming back to,

2780
05:02:41,710 --> 05:02:44,934
to council. Um, but first

2781
05:02:45,434 --> 05:02:49,587
and foremost, I'm here to make sure as an elected official

2782
05:02:50,087 --> 05:02:53,790
and working for the public that the tax rate is as low as it possibly

2783
05:02:53,806 --> 05:02:57,079
can. So asking these questions and,

2784
05:02:57,255 --> 05:03:00,801
uh, Seeing with the reserves and the answers doesn't mean I'm

2785
05:03:00,817 --> 05:03:04,797
for it, means that I'm here to ask those questions as an elected

2786
05:03:04,862 --> 05:03:07,339
representative of this town. Um,

2787
05:03:08,587 --> 05:03:12,185
am I attacking them all? I'm allowed to question them, and I think that's what

2788
05:03:12,685 --> 05:03:16,122
a good councillor does. By all means, Deputy Mayor, if you'd like.

2789
05:03:16,737 --> 05:03:20,120
Uh, thank you, Councilor Spiro. Um, I think as of

2790
05:03:20,153 --> 05:03:22,597
so far, I haven't been, um,

2791
05:03:23,828 --> 05:03:27,809
looking at those reserves. I don't think I've supported a motion since that's passed regarding

2792
05:03:28,309 --> 05:03:31,806
those reserves. My question specifically was this: I'm also just trying to— like

2793
05:03:32,306 --> 05:03:34,969
I said earlier, we're going to be making a decision here in a few days,

2794
05:03:36,124 --> 05:03:38,436
a decision here. So what I'm just trying to do is I'm just trying to

2795
05:03:38,757 --> 05:03:42,947
myself making a personal commitment, uh, to be

2796
05:03:43,447 --> 05:03:47,618
mindful of policies potentially coming into place, as well as trying to steward

2797
05:03:47,682 --> 05:03:50,820
some of the financial management that we collectively have been doing

2798
05:03:51,320 --> 05:03:54,820
throughout this term of council. So I don't think I've supported any

2799
05:03:55,320 --> 05:03:58,240
other reserve conversations, and I'm going to try and stay consistent with that because,

2800
05:03:58,740 --> 05:04:02,680
to your point, um, I myself just want to remain consistent on how I'm—

2801
05:04:03,180 --> 05:04:07,060
as one individual is looking at this budget, which includes the reserves. Appreciate that.

2802
05:04:07,560 --> 05:04:10,300
And I would— you're 100% accurate, I think, Deputy Mayor, on that point. I guess

2803
05:04:10,800 --> 05:04:14,920
then I will redirect a follow-up to, uh, just Mr. Bureau. Mr. Bureau— sorry,

2804
05:04:15,420 --> 05:04:18,980
sorry, Councillor Bureau, thank you. Bad habits die hard, and I do apologize. I'm just

2805
05:04:19,480 --> 05:04:22,498
glad I'm going with Mr. Bureau instead of Adam So we're making steps in the

2806
05:04:22,998 --> 05:04:26,937
right direction here. But Councillor Buro, fair enough. I guess my question

2807
05:04:27,401 --> 05:04:30,943
is, again, this isn't an accusation, simply a question of clarity.

2808
05:04:31,487 --> 05:04:34,756
I'm trying to understand how it is that, you know,

2809
05:04:35,638 --> 05:04:39,067
we want to keep the tax levy as low as possible, but then we're unwilling

2810
05:04:39,259 --> 05:04:42,832
to use the police reserves, but where we are willing to

2811
05:04:42,848 --> 05:04:46,246
use other reserves. And again, I'm part of

2812
05:04:46,746 --> 05:04:49,996
that. I voted to support I support the use of the affordable housing fund to

2813
05:04:50,220 --> 05:04:53,763
reduce the levy because, again, it's an affordability issue. But I'm just trying to understand

2814
05:04:53,827 --> 05:04:57,338
the dichotomy here of yes to some reserves and no to other reserves.

2815
05:04:57,514 --> 05:05:01,585
And I'm just curious as to why there was such a negative

2816
05:05:02,659 --> 05:05:06,074
or pushback. I don't use the term negative. That's adding value. Why there was such

2817
05:05:06,587 --> 05:05:10,001
a motion before to have no police reserves touched and then

2818
05:05:10,097 --> 05:05:13,848
the support of half the reserves touched. Yet here we are looking at moving reserves

2819
05:05:13,880 --> 05:05:17,430
around where our the Treasurer is suggesting this is a bad idea in general.

2820
05:05:17,899 --> 05:05:20,405
We're okay with town reserves, but we're not okay with police. I'm just trying to

2821
05:05:20,905 --> 05:05:24,665
make sense of that. I think we're talking about two different

2822
05:05:25,165 --> 05:05:30,084
scenarios. Um, with the police, I, I agreed

2823
05:05:30,584 --> 05:05:33,641
on the half the reserves, but I didn't— um, I don't think they

2824
05:05:34,141 --> 05:05:37,177
should have been touched. I— it's just kicking it down the can. Um,

2825
05:05:38,123 --> 05:05:42,035
with these reserves here, it is specifically

2826
05:05:42,147 --> 05:05:45,808
just asking questions. If there's ways to save the taxpayers'

2827
05:05:45,905 --> 05:05:49,421
money, I would do that. Um, by no means

2828
05:05:49,453 --> 05:05:53,451
does it mean that, um, I want to drain all the reserves in any way,

2829
05:05:53,467 --> 05:05:57,385
shape, or form. We need to have them. They're important policy

2830
05:05:57,465 --> 05:06:00,034
on Wednesday, which was going to be one of my arguments.

2831
05:06:00,452 --> 05:06:04,145
But, um, yeah, it was just

2832
05:06:04,645 --> 05:06:07,999
basically, uh, I— the

2833
05:06:08,499 --> 05:06:12,784
police need them. I understand the town needs them. Two different things. But I

2834
05:06:12,816 --> 05:06:16,268
think we're allowed— we should have conversations on each one. And it's by

2835
05:06:16,768 --> 05:06:20,202
no means am I choosing one over the other in any way, shape, or form.

2836
05:06:20,684 --> 05:06:23,992
But I do want to keep the levy down, as I've tried every year

2837
05:06:24,378 --> 05:06:27,428
since I've been elected. So, um, for me,

2838
05:06:28,633 --> 05:06:31,989
love to have these conversations. And having said that, since we're going to

2839
05:06:32,489 --> 05:06:35,806
be going over this policy on Wednesday Wednesday, should we reconvene

2840
05:06:35,854 --> 05:06:37,514
in another meeting instead of keep going?

2841
05:06:39,077 --> 05:06:42,446
To me, if we're just going to be having more policies that'll be made

2842
05:06:42,946 --> 05:06:46,457
on Wednesday, then should we even continue until after then?

2843
05:06:48,019 --> 05:06:51,562
I, I— this is the will of this council. I will follow the directions set

2844
05:06:51,626 --> 05:06:54,999
out, and I think that's a relatively good question. So just to understand where we're

2845
05:06:55,015 --> 05:06:57,925
at, we don't have motion on the floor, is that correct, Mr. Larimer? There are

2846
05:06:58,425 --> 05:07:01,482
no motions on the floor. We're looking at 3:40 approximately time. How does this council

2847
05:07:01,982 --> 05:07:04,931
want to proceed? We can continue going and having some conversations, we can look for,

2848
05:07:05,766 --> 05:07:08,800
uh, other questions. I know, Councilor Mouton, we're nowhere near the 2 pages,

2849
05:07:08,833 --> 05:07:11,771
so if you want to pick up a few questions, by all means. Councilor Barber,

2850
05:07:11,787 --> 05:07:15,223
by all means, let's get you started off. Well, I'll be very brief. I want

2851
05:07:15,723 --> 05:07:19,703
to make sure that everybody now knows that we're actually kicking the can down

2852
05:07:19,831 --> 05:07:22,882
the road. That's the whole expression.

2853
05:07:23,348 --> 05:07:26,495
Uh, but I, I want to say this, that I,

2854
05:07:26,639 --> 05:07:29,992
I would like to at least be able to leave here knowing

2855
05:07:30,024 --> 05:07:32,348
that we've covered off the 4 pages that, uh,

2856
05:07:32,812 --> 05:07:36,514
Councilor Mouton has, and then move forward from there. Thank you.

2857
05:07:36,819 --> 05:07:39,270
So, Councilor Mouton, that puts the onus on you. You said you're going to have

2858
05:07:39,302 --> 05:07:42,700
some questions that weren't answered. If she would like, and if this council is approving,

2859
05:07:42,716 --> 05:07:45,953
I'm happy to go through the unanswered questions. I'm assuming if they were unanswered,

2860
05:07:45,985 --> 05:07:49,334
there's a reason for that, but maybe we'll find some answers here on the fly.

2861
05:07:49,414 --> 05:07:53,228
But mic is yours. So the good news is it's no longer 4 pages,

2862
05:07:53,276 --> 05:07:56,630
it's about half that. So, page 22 of

2863
05:07:57,130 --> 05:08:01,062
the mayor's budget, future parking meter change. I have heard

2864
05:08:01,270 --> 05:08:05,028
a number of complaints that QR code tampering is

2865
05:08:05,204 --> 05:08:09,363
rampant in various municipalities. So I'm hoping

2866
05:08:09,459 --> 05:08:13,570
that the budget— I don't know if it's covered— that we are looking at

2867
05:08:14,308 --> 05:08:17,712
sort of streamlining, tamper-proofing our

2868
05:08:17,969 --> 05:08:20,425
parking meters. Um,

2869
05:08:20,937 --> 05:08:23,982
there's 3 questions on this page. Uh, the second question,

2870
05:08:23,998 --> 05:08:27,346
parking-related contracts, $86,000.

2871
05:08:27,987 --> 05:08:30,839
Um, I'm not sure what that's for.

2872
05:08:31,753 --> 05:08:35,406
Um, and also, are all parking lot rents

2873
05:08:35,758 --> 05:08:39,267
good through to the end of year 2026? So first of

2874
05:08:39,283 --> 05:08:43,033
all, what page are we talking about, Councilor? Page 22 of the mayor's budget.

2875
05:08:44,106 --> 05:08:47,823
Mayor's operating under this. We're under parking. So Mr. Larimer, I guess that's your ball.

2876
05:08:47,920 --> 05:08:51,404
Well, just to be very clear, Councillor, just so we are having

2877
05:08:51,904 --> 05:08:54,101
a few directors who are on vacation, we have a new director, so we will

2878
05:08:54,133 --> 05:08:56,719
do the best to get through. The reason some of your questions may not have

2879
05:08:57,219 --> 05:09:01,038
been answered is due to vacations of a director and/or still onboarding

2880
05:09:01,538 --> 05:09:03,334
a new one. So we'll work our way through this, but we'll start with this.

2881
05:09:04,410 --> 05:09:08,327
Director Larimer. Sure. Yeah, through Your Worship to Councillor

2882
05:09:08,827 --> 05:09:12,101
Mouton. So the first question, we don't have any reason to believe that any of

2883
05:09:12,601 --> 05:09:15,517
our QR codes are being tampered with. We'll make sure that if they are,

2884
05:09:15,646 --> 05:09:18,932
that we address that, but we have not received, or I don't have

2885
05:09:19,432 --> 05:09:22,955
any received, any comments from staff related to that. And, but I will

2886
05:09:23,455 --> 05:09:27,876
follow up definitely just to make sure that's okay. In regards to the $86,000

2887
05:09:27,892 --> 05:09:31,242
contract, so previous budget we used to have parking,

2888
05:09:32,060 --> 05:09:35,346
parking enforcement, parking on lots, and we've combined

2889
05:09:35,846 --> 05:09:38,664
that into one parking budget sheet.

2890
05:09:39,209 --> 05:09:42,547
The $86,000 is related to parking lot gardens,

2891
05:09:42,804 --> 05:09:46,338
on-street garden maintenance, the Darcy Ontario,

2892
05:09:46,354 --> 05:09:49,873
William Burnham snow removal and parking lot snow removal. So that's based

2893
05:09:50,373 --> 05:09:53,509
on that. That used to be, and it's kind of also organized by Public Works.

2894
05:09:53,930 --> 05:09:56,422
Laura hasn't updated it, so we just contract that out to make sure we're maintaining

2895
05:09:56,922 --> 05:10:00,993
our lots as well too, including our

2896
05:10:01,493 --> 05:10:04,893
lease lots as well too. In regards to the rentals right now for

2897
05:10:04,926 --> 05:10:08,126
the lots, yes, those are currently current. As you know, there are some

2898
05:10:08,142 --> 05:10:11,185
development discussions on a couple of lots. So, uh, right now

2899
05:10:11,218 --> 05:10:14,519
we're holding still until kind of those results happen, or anything comes from those

2900
05:10:14,552 --> 05:10:17,673
developers on those lots, or the landlords at least, uh, from that.

2901
05:10:18,740 --> 05:10:19,888
Hope they answer the questions for you.

2902
05:10:22,262 --> 05:10:23,953
Shall I continue? By all means. Okay.

2903
05:10:26,031 --> 05:10:29,059
Um, on the mayor's budget, page 36, uh,

2904
05:10:31,104 --> 05:10:35,199
just Just have

2905
05:10:37,186 --> 05:10:38,342
to get through here.

2906
05:10:43,200 --> 05:10:46,399
Yes, on page, uh, 36, uh, and it is,

2907
05:10:46,752 --> 05:10:49,598
um, uh, with regards to,

2908
05:10:50,610 --> 05:10:54,249
uh, social and family, the 2027 forecast

2909
05:10:54,636 --> 05:10:58,614
is $125,000, but there's no money allotted

2910
05:10:58,646 --> 05:11:03,369
for 2026. I'm just wondering, um, how that—

2911
05:11:03,707 --> 05:11:07,012
this would be our forward-thinking treasurer, so by all

2912
05:11:07,512 --> 05:11:08,749
means I'll let him answer this one.

2913
05:11:10,620 --> 05:11:13,724
Uh, through you, Mr. Mayor, to the councillor. So, uh, not so

2914
05:11:14,224 --> 05:11:18,088
much forward-thinking as much as making a mistake. But, um, so for

2915
05:11:18,588 --> 05:11:22,393
2027 and 2028, and this is on page 39, so the recovery

2916
05:11:22,410 --> 05:11:25,756
from Holdco was been carried through for 2027 and 2028. So I'd

2917
05:11:26,256 --> 05:11:29,709
have to update that so that the tax impact

2918
05:11:30,209 --> 05:11:33,040
for those year— or the, sorry, the tax levy impact for those years for that

2919
05:11:33,106 --> 05:11:34,768
specific department is nil.

2920
05:11:38,130 --> 05:11:41,198
So I will mention page 37 is— we covered

2921
05:11:41,698 --> 05:11:45,394
this about the food bank, $10,000. So there

2922
05:11:45,894 --> 05:11:49,989
is a separate page which is there. Let's see.

2923
05:11:53,461 --> 05:11:57,117
I've covered that. We've covered that. Oh, page 42,

2924
05:12:01,333 --> 05:12:03,733
which is page 37 in the staff report.

2925
05:12:05,951 --> 05:12:10,108
I just wanted to highlight, doesn't seem there's consideration for

2926
05:12:10,318 --> 05:12:14,103
future additions to our dog park. We currently lease the lands

2927
05:12:14,200 --> 05:12:17,723
for the dog park. Very, very popular. Popular, but with our community growing,

2928
05:12:18,224 --> 05:12:21,591
I just wondered if, if there is consideration,

2929
05:12:21,785 --> 05:12:23,485
or is that a future discussion?

2930
05:12:26,540 --> 05:12:30,245
By all means. Through you,

2931
05:12:30,277 --> 05:12:32,973
Mr. Mayor, to Councillor Mouton. Thank you very much for the question.

2932
05:12:34,054 --> 05:12:37,880
You're correct, that's something that would or should come through

2933
05:12:38,380 --> 05:12:41,873
the Parks and Recreation Master Plan, and we may have already heard it through

2934
05:12:42,373 --> 05:12:46,239
the engagement. Um, and as you know, last week

2935
05:12:46,739 --> 05:12:51,402
at the committee meeting, we discussed additional engagement opportunities that

2936
05:12:51,902 --> 05:12:55,897
are coming in the new year, but the information can also come through the

2937
05:12:56,397 --> 05:12:58,696
task force to staff and to the consultants as well.

2938
05:13:00,540 --> 05:13:03,080
Thank you. Page 53,

2939
05:13:04,342 --> 05:13:07,739
marina security. I noticed that the cost is up 900%.

2940
05:13:08,902 --> 05:13:12,628
It's not clear to me whether this is a private contract or

2941
05:13:12,660 --> 05:13:16,821
whether it's a recoverable, perhaps from fees or other,

2942
05:13:17,095 --> 05:13:18,289
let's say, a town department.

2943
05:13:29,624 --> 05:13:30,854
By all means, after you, Director.

2944
05:13:33,031 --> 05:13:36,290
Through you, Mr. Mayor, um, Um, thank you for the question again,

2945
05:13:36,482 --> 05:13:40,978
Councilor Mouton. Um, from the information

2946
05:13:41,478 --> 05:13:44,944
that I've received from our community services staff, we did

2947
05:13:45,313 --> 05:13:48,717
experience some ongoing issues, uh, this last year at

2948
05:13:49,217 --> 05:13:52,411
the campground and the marina. So we are

2949
05:13:52,619 --> 05:13:56,328
looking, um, or we have seen additional costs

2950
05:13:56,828 --> 05:14:00,070
in security. And speaking with other directors

2951
05:14:00,969 --> 05:14:03,862
What we're hoping to do is sit down in the new year and take a

2952
05:14:04,362 --> 05:14:07,799
look at security needs across the town and

2953
05:14:08,299 --> 05:14:11,912
to see how we can better operate

2954
05:14:12,057 --> 05:14:16,026
as a whole and not necessarily individual departments,

2955
05:14:16,154 --> 05:14:19,657
also while maybe leveraging our internal bylaw enforcement staff

2956
05:14:19,786 --> 05:14:23,144
as well. I'm just, I'm just going to jump in and

2957
05:14:23,644 --> 05:14:27,079
say something that perhaps staff aren't willing to say. Or appropriate for them to say.

2958
05:14:27,640 --> 05:14:31,072
Um, this has to deal with a continual issue that

2959
05:14:31,088 --> 05:14:34,440
we're dealing with at the Town of Cobourg building, the marina, throughout town,

2960
05:14:34,712 --> 05:14:36,669
and that is damaging, uh,

2961
05:14:37,695 --> 05:14:41,127
our property on a consistent basis by individuals who are in our

2962
05:14:41,627 --> 05:14:44,816
vulnerable community members. We're requiring security now at

2963
05:14:44,880 --> 05:14:47,879
all of our buildings. We're requiring security at the marina and the campground.

2964
05:14:48,344 --> 05:14:51,520
This is part and parcel of what we were talking about earlier. Councilor Metton would

2965
05:14:51,700 --> 05:14:55,750
costs, uh, of being the center of social services for the entire county,

2966
05:14:55,831 --> 05:14:59,477
yet the Cobourg tax base were bearing the costs of that. And this

2967
05:14:59,977 --> 05:15:03,557
is another example of a $10,000 cost of security that I guarantee no

2968
05:15:03,750 --> 05:15:07,215
other lower-tier municipality in the County of Northumberland are having to

2969
05:15:07,715 --> 05:15:11,640
consider. They're not needing to secure their marinas or secure their buildings

2970
05:15:11,673 --> 05:15:14,462
because they don't experience the problems we do here in Cobourg.

2971
05:15:16,451 --> 05:15:19,639
I'll continue on page, um,

2972
05:15:19,768 --> 05:15:25,948
58. It's another, uh, community services item.

2973
05:15:26,176 --> 05:15:30,281
Uh, could you please clarify what is meant by miscellaneous receipts?

2974
05:15:30,411 --> 05:15:33,687
I know it is— it's good news, up 900%,

2975
05:15:34,891 --> 05:15:37,235
um, but I don't know what that might mean.

2976
05:15:38,550 --> 05:15:43,092
By all means, Director. Do you welcome the budget? Say through

2977
05:15:43,592 --> 05:15:47,213
you, Mr. Mayor, and thank you. Um, uh, my understanding from

2978
05:15:47,246 --> 05:15:50,548
staff, Councilor Mouton, is that is This is just a— we're

2979
05:15:50,661 --> 05:15:53,743
working with finance on this amount, and it is, it is a good

2980
05:15:54,243 --> 05:15:58,174
news story. Our manager of recreation services

2981
05:15:59,041 --> 05:16:02,397
started with us about a year and a half ago and has done a lot

2982
05:16:02,897 --> 05:16:07,357
of cleanup as far as our ActiveNet, which is our parks and recreation booking system

2983
05:16:07,438 --> 05:16:10,617
that we use. So a lot of cleanup there,

2984
05:16:10,809 --> 05:16:14,084
and this is just an amount that needs

2985
05:16:14,116 --> 05:16:17,404
to be tied to a GL account. Account, but we're just working

2986
05:16:17,500 --> 05:16:20,972
through, continually working through to just tidy up

2987
05:16:21,472 --> 05:16:25,155
some, some GL accounts on our end. So always

2988
05:16:25,187 --> 05:16:28,289
like when the cleanup is in the positive, Director. This is a good way to

2989
05:16:28,321 --> 05:16:31,711
introduce yourself to the corporation and a way to make friends with our treasurer,

2990
05:16:31,760 --> 05:16:34,471
for sure. Councilor Mouton, next question.

2991
05:16:35,087 --> 05:16:38,928
Yes, I have heard from several citizens concern for

2992
05:16:39,366 --> 05:16:42,922
the concert hall plaster And I am aware that there are

2993
05:16:43,422 --> 05:16:47,213
some roof matters that are under repair that

2994
05:16:47,713 --> 05:16:51,047
are causing leaking in the concert hall. My question is,

2995
05:16:52,128 --> 05:16:56,001
and this is further to questions that have been posed to me, given that there's

2996
05:16:56,501 --> 05:17:00,411
upcoming plaster repair due mainly to roof water damage,

2997
05:17:00,590 --> 05:17:04,855
is it advisable to increase more than 100% the

2998
05:17:04,903 --> 05:17:08,811
events, including loud event

2999
05:17:09,311 --> 05:17:12,571
use, in the concert hall in 2026? It is

3000
05:17:12,588 --> 05:17:15,864
my understanding the room and plaster walls were designed for

3001
05:17:15,977 --> 05:17:18,608
acoustic music, uh,

3002
05:17:19,367 --> 05:17:22,847
and, uh, it's not heavily amplified sound.

3003
05:17:23,123 --> 05:17:26,527
I'm just wondering if we could get some feedback on that. I think

3004
05:17:27,027 --> 05:17:29,785
you're up on that one too, Director, but I'm open to have anyone else.

3005
05:17:29,915 --> 05:17:30,937
Director Giddings,

3006
05:17:33,466 --> 05:17:37,050
through you, Mr. Mayor, to the Councillor, um, I'd have to take that away

3007
05:17:37,550 --> 05:17:40,070
and I know you did send the questions out yesterday, so I can send that

3008
05:17:40,570 --> 05:17:44,231
to staff and I'd have to get back to you on that. I know we

3009
05:17:44,731 --> 05:17:47,594
have been doing some roof repairs before we do work on the plaster in the

3010
05:17:48,094 --> 05:17:51,796
concert hall, just in terms of a clear process of when we're doing the capital

3011
05:17:52,296 --> 05:17:54,623
work. But I'd have to take that away and get back to you.

3012
05:17:58,384 --> 05:18:00,071
Getting close to the end here, Mr. Mayor.

3013
05:18:01,115 --> 05:18:05,117
Councilor Matan, there is absolutely no rush. Take your time. So I

3014
05:18:05,133 --> 05:18:09,241
actually do have some questions with regards to some large numbers numbers

3015
05:18:09,433 --> 05:18:12,885
on the development department side, given that we

3016
05:18:13,046 --> 05:18:16,867
did have a planning department. And I was surprised

3017
05:18:16,979 --> 05:18:19,966
that the, uh, the,

3018
05:18:20,335 --> 05:18:23,851
the large— the largeness of the numbers, given that we did

3019
05:18:24,429 --> 05:18:27,897
have something before. So I don't know whether

3020
05:18:28,397 --> 05:18:31,590
this is more of a one-to-one conversation, but, uh,

3021
05:18:32,634 --> 05:18:36,781
is there a simple explanation And

3022
05:18:36,861 --> 05:18:39,758
I look to the director. By all means, uh, do you have a page that

3023
05:18:40,258 --> 05:18:41,962
you'd like to talk about just so that the public can turn to it?

3024
05:18:42,027 --> 05:18:44,730
And we have an allocation. Is there a specific page you want to talk?

3025
05:18:44,795 --> 05:18:48,534
69. Thank you so much. I'll turn the mayor's budget.

3026
05:18:48,728 --> 05:18:51,479
I'm happy to turn the mic over either to the CAO or to the director

3027
05:18:51,979 --> 05:18:55,039
of development. Thank you.

3028
05:18:55,088 --> 05:18:58,416
Through the mayor to Councilor McTavish. So I'll give a kind of brief synopsis or

3029
05:18:58,916 --> 05:19:01,995
scenario about what the cost drivers are to the development. Division this year, and then

3030
05:19:02,012 --> 05:19:05,407
happy to take any other follow-up questions. So, uh, there are 3 FTEs

3031
05:19:05,423 --> 05:19:08,688
that are being reallocated internally, uh, to the Planning section.

3032
05:19:08,834 --> 05:19:12,142
So those are showing up in the budget this year. So those are fully approved

3033
05:19:12,642 --> 05:19:16,042
and funded through the 2025 budget already. So those are not a net increase,

3034
05:19:16,058 --> 05:19:19,089
those are just an internal reallocation, uh, to the department there.

3035
05:19:19,849 --> 05:19:23,357
Uh, second, uh, is a decrease in planning revenues for

3036
05:19:23,857 --> 05:19:27,790
next year. So in 2025, we carry $300,000 through.

3037
05:19:28,290 --> 05:19:32,390
So I took a look at the past years being 2023, 2024, and 2025,

3038
05:19:32,890 --> 05:19:36,210
and our actual planning revenues were between $130,000 and $150,000

3039
05:19:36,710 --> 05:19:40,470
or so a year. So we have lowered that projection from $300,000 to

3040
05:19:40,970 --> 05:19:44,410
$150,000 for next year. We're sitting at about $133,000 this

3041
05:19:44,910 --> 05:19:47,890
year, and we just got another check for $27,000, so we're about $160,000. So $150,000

3042
05:19:48,390 --> 05:19:51,170
is kind of the average baseline for the last 3 years. I didn't think it

3043
05:19:51,670 --> 05:19:54,814
would be appropriate to over-project predict what we thought the revenue would be.

3044
05:19:54,878 --> 05:19:58,217
So best practice was to look back to what our actuals

3045
05:19:58,233 --> 05:20:01,829
were in previous years. There's been an increase in

3046
05:20:01,861 --> 05:20:05,762
the consulting line item in development as well too. So we have several

3047
05:20:05,810 --> 05:20:09,968
appeals that we are going to be dealing with at the OLT coming into 2026.

3048
05:20:10,529 --> 05:20:13,788
So there is money for legal and consulting fees for that.

3049
05:20:14,382 --> 05:20:18,235
There's some work that we're proposing to do in terms of engagement

3050
05:20:18,735 --> 05:20:20,900
with First Nations and duty to consult. So there's some money that have been put

3051
05:20:21,400 --> 05:20:24,869
aside for legal fees of that as well too. The comprehensive zoning bylaw is

3052
05:20:24,981 --> 05:20:27,408
coming to a decision of council on the 17th.

3053
05:20:28,034 --> 05:20:31,202
There's a chance that may be appealed in 2026, so we have

3054
05:20:31,702 --> 05:20:34,488
to be prepared for that appeal as well too. And then there's other— sorry,

3055
05:20:37,030 --> 05:20:40,276
consulting fees that are in there for, say, heritage work that has to happen as

3056
05:20:40,776 --> 05:20:43,491
well. So those are just some of the special items that we've flagged for this

3057
05:20:43,991 --> 05:20:47,505
year in addition to normal work that we'd use lawyers and consultants for in

3058
05:20:47,602 --> 05:20:49,593
terms of site plan agreements and development applications.

3059
05:20:50,733 --> 05:20:53,800
Just to add to this before we go to your next question, at the next

3060
05:20:53,880 --> 05:20:57,782
council meeting, we'll be seeing a report come forward about a lot of this reallocation

3061
05:20:57,814 --> 05:21:00,993
and the decisions. Just recently, I had a meeting with the Director of

3062
05:21:01,025 --> 05:21:04,863
Public Works, the Director of Development, and CAO Vaughan. We went

3063
05:21:05,363 --> 05:21:07,753
over the strong mayor directive that was given several months ago.

3064
05:21:08,315 --> 05:21:11,269
Um, all the staff have found a way to come together on the same page.

3065
05:21:11,350 --> 05:21:14,924
As between directors, as they always do, and came forward and

3066
05:21:15,229 --> 05:21:18,099
began presenting to me. And I said, oh, if you all agreed, and they all

3067
05:21:18,195 --> 05:21:21,465
said yes, I said, well, then bring it to council, because if the 3 of

3068
05:21:21,965 --> 05:21:25,056
the professionals agree, then I think it's time for council to hear that. So I'm

3069
05:21:25,233 --> 05:21:28,006
looking forward to hearing that. It's on our next agenda. I believe some of that

3070
05:21:28,038 --> 05:21:30,827
will be showing up. I'm not 100% sure if it's this one or the January

3071
05:21:30,844 --> 05:21:34,370
one, but I know it's coming soon. As I know Director

3072
05:21:34,870 --> 05:21:37,962
Wills and Director Challenger are both sort of working working through the weeds of

3073
05:21:37,994 --> 05:21:41,361
the details. But yes, the point here being that there are no

3074
05:21:41,861 --> 05:21:45,178
net levy increases. This is simple reallocation from one department to the next.

3075
05:21:45,691 --> 05:21:49,139
And I actually want to commend— appreciate Director Challenger— I want to commend staff on

3076
05:21:49,639 --> 05:21:53,853
this because it's very easy to overestimate revenue and

3077
05:21:53,934 --> 05:21:57,782
then deal with it later. It takes a courageous leader to be transparent

3078
05:21:58,282 --> 05:22:01,615
and accept that the revenue projections— I needed to come back in line. And so

3079
05:22:01,711 --> 05:22:03,651
this is the kind of work that I just want to say is great that

3080
05:22:03,700 --> 05:22:06,988
We have directors and the treasurer working together to not just sort of hope that

3081
05:22:07,021 --> 05:22:10,582
we're going to have $300,000, but actually look at the fact that it's never come

3082
05:22:10,630 --> 05:22:14,850
to fruition. So why do we keep putting that number down there? Especially considering

3083
05:22:14,882 --> 05:22:18,011
this council has given clear direction to the development department to get back to the

3084
05:22:18,511 --> 05:22:20,915
basics, to clean up the mess so that we can start the next term of

3085
05:22:21,415 --> 05:22:24,637
council, whoever that might be, sort of with a fresh, fresh approach.

3086
05:22:24,733 --> 05:22:28,038
So my commending again, that's hard to do, and it takes courage

3087
05:22:28,182 --> 05:22:31,699
to reduce revenues. Revenue in a, in a budget season. So good job, team.

3088
05:22:32,151 --> 05:22:35,029
It's called realism. By all means, Director— sorry, Councilor Mouton.

3089
05:22:35,773 --> 05:22:38,934
Yes, on the same page, uh, 69, I noticed

3090
05:22:39,434 --> 05:22:43,090
a significant increase for the Committee of Adjustment of over, over 330%.

3091
05:22:43,429 --> 05:22:46,873
Uh, could you please identify

3092
05:22:46,890 --> 05:22:50,376
what's happening? I'd love to start that one, but I believe that's going

3093
05:22:50,409 --> 05:22:53,895
to be regarding our OLT, but maybe I'm

3094
05:22:54,395 --> 05:22:58,063
wrong. Through the chair to Councilor Burtell.

3095
05:22:58,480 --> 05:23:02,719
So what I've tried to do in the budget this year is align costs

3096
05:23:03,219 --> 05:23:06,814
with the actual respective different departments and planning. So we have Long Range

3097
05:23:07,314 --> 05:23:10,587
Planning and we have Development Review. So I think this is just a typo that

3098
05:23:11,087 --> 05:23:14,007
we didn't catch to move forward, that it should read Development Review instead of Committee

3099
05:23:14,023 --> 05:23:17,797
of Adjustment. So what I've done is I've taken the costs

3100
05:23:18,297 --> 05:23:21,408
that are actually in Development Review and the costs that are actually long-range planning.

3101
05:23:21,488 --> 05:23:24,582
So those staff that are there and any of the requisite expenses that are there

3102
05:23:24,950 --> 05:23:28,910
and have two distinct divisions, because right now everything was just lumped kind of into

3103
05:23:28,958 --> 05:23:32,309
planning and we don't really know what the true cost of that is. I think

3104
05:23:32,809 --> 05:23:35,804
it's important for Council and the public to understand what those cost drivers are.

3105
05:23:36,253 --> 05:23:39,603
And if we look to do like a planning fee study in, say,

3106
05:23:39,619 --> 05:23:42,745
2027 or beyond, I think it's important for us

3107
05:23:43,245 --> 05:23:46,000
to be able to really understand kind of what those costs are and what's driving

3108
05:23:46,500 --> 05:23:49,646
driving them, and especially as it relates to if we look at amending our fees

3109
05:23:50,146 --> 05:23:52,826
at some point in the future, they can be requisite of the actual costs that

3110
05:23:52,858 --> 05:23:56,231
are there. I do know there's one thing I do need to flag because

3111
05:23:56,731 --> 05:23:59,893
it's on Councillor Mouton's question, so I'm sure it's going to come up soon anyways.

3112
05:24:00,712 --> 05:24:03,170
There was a mistake on my end that I have to own.

3113
05:24:04,021 --> 05:24:07,458
So in the long-range planning section, we had some

3114
05:24:07,958 --> 05:24:11,072
amazing kind of changes that didn't make it through just because of timing towards the

3115
05:24:11,572 --> 05:24:14,526
end. So 2 things that were going to be removed from there. So there's the

3116
05:24:15,026 --> 05:24:18,236
Heritage Conservation District Plan and the

3117
05:24:18,736 --> 05:24:22,171
Downtown CIP incentive program. So there's recoverables for

3118
05:24:22,671 --> 05:24:25,175
both of those. So it would be— those would both come off and it would

3119
05:24:25,223 --> 05:24:27,680
be no impact to the tax levy.

3120
05:24:28,178 --> 05:24:31,471
And where it says development area Cobourg East, that should have been updated for

3121
05:24:31,971 --> 05:24:35,743
the actual official plan in itself because the Cobourg East was

3122
05:24:35,888 --> 05:24:39,115
funded and started this year, but it's the OP. OP that is going through

3123
05:24:39,615 --> 05:24:41,844
for next year. Follow up.

3124
05:24:42,566 --> 05:24:46,178
This is on page 72. Yes. Okay, so, uh,

3125
05:24:46,322 --> 05:24:49,003
yes, you did anticipate my question, which was the OP.

3126
05:24:50,175 --> 05:24:53,209
Uh, so will you be reissuing that page,

3127
05:24:53,465 --> 05:24:57,414
or Mr. Mayor, you would be— oh no, my draft is done. I've already ripped

3128
05:24:57,914 --> 05:25:01,411
mine up at this point. This is Director Gittings. Uh, so could you

3129
05:25:01,427 --> 05:25:05,263
please repeat what— I'm sorry, I didn't— I wasn't sure what page you were

3130
05:25:05,763 --> 05:25:08,969
on, and I And could you please repeat those items? Sure.

3131
05:25:09,370 --> 05:25:12,641
Through the Mayor to Councilor McTavish. So I'm on page 72 of

3132
05:25:13,141 --> 05:25:16,233
the Mayor's budget. So there was 2 special projects that were noted,

3133
05:25:16,249 --> 05:25:20,179
the Heritage Conservation District Plan, the Downtown CIP incentive

3134
05:25:20,195 --> 05:25:23,530
program. So both those would be falling off, so the costs and the recoverables.

3135
05:25:24,108 --> 05:25:28,117
And we had— I missed updating where it says development area Cobourg East, that should

3136
05:25:28,617 --> 05:25:31,725
read the Official Plan projects. So that would bring forward a budget for the OP.

3137
05:25:31,902 --> 05:25:34,828
Project for 2026, and those other 2 would fall off.

3138
05:25:36,190 --> 05:25:40,015
So again, more reallocation, not new funding, not new models, simple reallocation. Is that

3139
05:25:40,515 --> 05:25:44,099
fair to say? Uh, through the mayor to the mayor,

3140
05:25:44,276 --> 05:25:47,461
yes. So it would be no impact to the tax levy. Uh, the OP

3141
05:25:47,526 --> 05:25:51,405
is being funded in part from Development Charges Reserve, and the rest will be coming

3142
05:25:51,905 --> 05:25:52,909
from the Planning Studies Reserve.

3143
05:25:54,905 --> 05:25:58,079
Thank you. So again, once again, this budget does have a very very, uh,

3144
05:25:58,402 --> 05:26:01,750
I think balanced approach to using capital and reserves. By all means, Councilor Matong.

3145
05:26:02,187 --> 05:26:06,457
So that means— so with the 2026 budget

3146
05:26:06,554 --> 05:26:11,138
under this page, would that be closer to zero at

3147
05:26:11,219 --> 05:26:15,131
the bottom? This one I'm

3148
05:26:15,631 --> 05:26:19,379
open to. It looks like we're saving $250,000 here.

3149
05:26:21,400 --> 05:26:23,775
Sorry, what is the question, Councilor Matong? I just want to I understand.

3150
05:26:26,671 --> 05:26:30,410
So the question is, we've had a couple of studies that are removed

3151
05:26:30,910 --> 05:26:36,023
off the list, but they may have been recoveries,

3152
05:26:36,925 --> 05:26:40,661
and then we had a study that was clarified

3153
05:26:40,726 --> 05:26:44,187
that it will in fact happen, the OP. So the, the,

3154
05:26:44,348 --> 05:26:47,761
the final number there on the 2026 budget on page 72,

3155
05:26:47,874 --> 05:26:57,616
which now reads $287.94, will Through

3156
05:26:57,665 --> 05:27:00,528
the chair, Chair to Councilor McTavish, it'll still read, um,

3157
05:27:00,704 --> 05:27:04,098
$287,994, uh, because there's a cost

3158
05:27:04,598 --> 05:27:07,236
and then a recovery, uh, for those two special projects that were, uh,

3159
05:27:07,624 --> 05:27:10,060
highlighted on here. So that nets out to zero.

3160
05:27:10,447 --> 05:27:13,932
Um, there were the development area, Cobourg East, that should read

3161
05:27:14,432 --> 05:27:16,903
official plan. Uh, there are recoveries for that as well too, so we can pull

3162
05:27:17,403 --> 05:27:20,823
$65,000 $25,000 from development charges because it's identified in the DC

3163
05:27:21,323 --> 05:27:24,741
background study, and then the remainder of it would be funded through the

3164
05:27:25,241 --> 05:27:28,771
planning studies reserve. So you'll note I'm putting money into the planning studies reserve

3165
05:27:29,271 --> 05:27:32,159
this year. So my plan is to put a small amount of money each year

3166
05:27:32,368 --> 05:27:35,900
into the reserve so that we have a fully funded planning study reserve

3167
05:27:36,400 --> 05:27:38,710
when we need to draw from it, and then the remainder balance would be drawn

3168
05:27:39,210 --> 05:27:39,353
from that this year.

3169
05:27:47,975 --> 05:27:48,879
I'm on my last page.

3170
05:27:54,150 --> 05:27:55,573
Why is that? We need a motion to extend.

3171
05:27:58,806 --> 05:28:01,570
Oh, do we need an actual proposal to do those, or those aren't just to

3172
05:28:02,070 --> 05:28:04,495
be— oh, because it's already been drafted and prepared, it needs to be adjusted.

3173
05:28:04,560 --> 05:28:07,550
Nice catch, Mr. Larimer. That's why they pay you the big bucks, sir.

3174
05:28:08,132 --> 05:28:11,702
So the The ask from our director is to

3175
05:28:12,202 --> 05:28:14,466
basically do what was meant to be done in the past. Is that correct?

3176
05:28:19,978 --> 05:28:23,153
Yes. And for the— well, yeah, I just need that last number for our clerk.

3177
05:28:23,250 --> 05:28:24,754
Further, that council add how much?

3178
05:28:27,072 --> 05:28:30,692
So we're essentially where it says recoveries development area Cobourg

3179
05:28:30,853 --> 05:28:34,505
East. That would be just replaced with the official plan. So we're budgeting essentially

3180
05:28:35,005 --> 05:28:38,254
the same amount that we did for the Coburg East Secondary Plan this year.

3181
05:28:38,865 --> 05:28:42,253
And then we would have to change the funding allocation. So part

3182
05:28:42,753 --> 05:28:46,058
of it would be coming. So you'll see $65,000 is in there for the reserve,

3183
05:28:46,492 --> 05:28:49,960
and then it would just be the remainder that comes from the planning

3184
05:28:50,460 --> 05:28:53,958
studies. And just for the public's edification, Director Giddings,

3185
05:28:54,664 --> 05:28:57,635
these things have already been talked to by you and approved by the two of

3186
05:28:58,135 --> 05:28:59,819
you. We're not just doing this on the floor. Is that correct?

3187
05:29:04,780 --> 05:29:08,167
I'm getting a bunch of head nods to the public who don't know the sign

3188
05:29:08,667 --> 05:29:12,679
language of yes. That's yes. So there we go. So this is not director—

3189
05:29:13,851 --> 05:29:17,576
one director just making amendments on the floor. This has already been discussed by staff

3190
05:29:17,865 --> 05:29:21,237
being brought forward and we're making the amendment. So, Mr. Larimer,

3191
05:29:21,253 --> 05:29:25,074
are we clear on what we're doing from a perspective?

3192
05:29:25,170 --> 05:29:26,583
No worries, we'll take a vote.

3193
05:29:28,830 --> 05:29:31,330
Moment. We're just going to hold a minute to give Mr. Larimer a moment to

3194
05:29:31,804 --> 05:29:33,488
get straight, and then we will move on to that question.

3195
05:29:36,900 --> 05:29:39,765
23355, same number,

3196
05:29:40,089 --> 05:29:40,833
same number, correct.

3197
05:31:21,551 --> 05:31:24,258
Miss Johnson, just have a quick look, as long as Miss Director Giddings, if the

3198
05:31:24,758 --> 05:31:26,444
two of you can just confirm that this is what's required.

3199
05:32:01,664 --> 05:32:02,939
Open whenever you guys want to do.

3200
05:32:18,048 --> 05:32:21,470
Yeah, I'm just— go ahead, Councilor Matan, while the directors are looking to see that

3201
05:32:21,970 --> 05:32:25,162
this is acceptable. Uh, yes, a question to

3202
05:32:25,210 --> 05:32:27,198
the developer— uh, director, sorry.

3203
05:32:28,598 --> 05:32:32,888
I've done it again. So when we move— remove the Heritage

3204
05:32:33,388 --> 05:32:36,905
Conservation District Plan special project and special project for downtown CIP,

3205
05:32:37,226 --> 05:32:40,938
is that for 2026, or are you— what is the

3206
05:32:40,954 --> 05:32:43,953
intention there? Because those are both valuable projects.

3207
05:32:45,240 --> 05:32:48,514
Is it to defer to some time

3208
05:32:48,562 --> 05:32:52,288
in the future through the Mi'kmaq Council?

3209
05:32:52,417 --> 05:32:55,889
Yes, so it would be to defer those projects. So Next year, the priority is

3210
05:32:56,389 --> 05:32:59,806
going to be getting the comprehensive zoning bylaw approved and implemented,

3211
05:33:00,239 --> 05:33:03,337
finishing the Coburg secondary plan, and then all of the work that needs to happen

3212
05:33:03,433 --> 05:33:07,366
on the new official plan. So those are our policy priorities coming

3213
05:33:07,526 --> 05:33:10,913
into 2026. Anything that we wouldn't consider— I

3214
05:33:11,413 --> 05:33:14,894
don't consider foundational will be 2027 and beyond. Once we get kind of those

3215
05:33:15,071 --> 05:33:17,783
core planning documents done,

3216
05:33:18,297 --> 05:33:21,443
then we can start to look at other items. If I may, Mr. Mayor,

3217
05:33:21,571 --> 05:33:25,440
then if we use the word remove, that we remove for 2026,

3218
05:33:25,584 --> 05:33:28,949
or use the words defer until

3219
05:33:29,287 --> 05:33:32,863
a future budget year, those two projects. I just,

3220
05:33:32,912 --> 05:33:36,232
I think they're valuable. I don't think I want to say that we're— they're

3221
05:33:36,732 --> 05:33:39,461
going to disappear entirely. I have no problem that we're still looking for a mover

3222
05:33:39,961 --> 05:33:43,674
and a seconder. So this is still in discussion. So by all means,

3223
05:33:43,820 --> 05:33:45,770
I think the clerk's hearing that and moving that.

3224
05:33:47,950 --> 05:33:54,495
So moved by Councilor, uh, Barber, seconded by Councilor Any

3225
05:33:54,995 --> 05:33:57,876
other questions or concerns at this time? I just want to make sure that we're

3226
05:33:58,376 --> 05:34:01,516
doing this, uh, on the up and up,

3227
05:34:01,532 --> 05:34:05,161
so to speak. Director Challenger, we're all good on your side with

3228
05:34:05,210 --> 05:34:06,888
what's been proposed,

3229
05:34:09,243 --> 05:34:12,640
uh, through the mayor. I would just have to double-check with the

3230
05:34:13,272 --> 05:34:16,955
treasurer or with the clerk. Um, I think

3231
05:34:17,003 --> 05:34:20,727
so. We We've got $65,000 for the official

3232
05:34:20,760 --> 05:34:24,221
plan project that is coming from development charge

3233
05:34:24,721 --> 05:34:27,450
reserve. So that's noted in there as well. I just need— I think we need

3234
05:34:27,950 --> 05:34:31,810
some clarity that $168,255 would be funded from the

3235
05:34:32,310 --> 05:34:33,483
planning studies reserve as a recoverable.

3236
05:34:36,470 --> 05:34:38,364
Yeah. At $168,255.

3237
05:34:46,057 --> 05:34:51,390
And Mr. Mayor, if it's okay to, to use the word defer rather

3238
05:34:51,890 --> 05:34:53,173
than remove in the first paragraph.

3239
05:34:55,465 --> 05:34:58,887
I noted that. Um, is that the hand raised there, Deputy Mayor? Is there another

3240
05:34:59,387 --> 05:35:03,411
question on top of that? Deferred, not removed. Is that

3241
05:35:03,795 --> 05:35:07,310
understood? The two movers

3242
05:35:07,343 --> 05:35:12,510
and seconders are fine with That.

3243
05:35:12,574 --> 05:35:16,385
Okay, any other further

3244
05:35:16,611 --> 05:35:19,444
considerations, issues, negotiations?

3245
05:35:19,653 --> 05:35:23,028
Deputy Mayor, in the past when we've

3246
05:35:23,528 --> 05:35:27,064
deferred, is it just assumed that the deferral, it'll be rolled over into

3247
05:35:27,564 --> 05:35:31,716
2027 for discussion? I know in the past we've indicated as

3248
05:35:31,748 --> 05:35:35,108
such. I just, I don't know if we need— does imply that the deferral

3249
05:35:35,140 --> 05:35:37,354
means it just bumped up a fiscal year.

3250
05:35:38,129 --> 05:35:40,129
Otherwise, if we need to indicate that in the motion,

3251
05:35:43,030 --> 05:35:46,679
uh, I— Mr. Chair, um, uh, in response to the Deputy Mayor,

3252
05:35:46,760 --> 05:35:51,020
I'm okay to, to include to defer, uh, to 2027,

3253
05:35:51,037 --> 05:35:54,188
and then that, that time, uh, it can be decided

3254
05:35:54,688 --> 05:35:56,544
by council whether it's deferred, uh, further.

3255
05:36:01,816 --> 05:36:05,366
Yeah, next year will be another strong mayor budget, whoever the mayor

3256
05:36:05,431 --> 05:36:08,708
is at that time. So it doesn't really matter what you defer because it'll be

3257
05:36:09,208 --> 05:36:11,937
up to the mayor at that time to present it at that time. Could I,

3258
05:36:12,323 --> 05:36:16,195
could I then include the date just as a little reminder, a gentle reminder?

3259
05:36:16,291 --> 05:36:19,007
This is your motion. I have no issues or concerns. Uh,

3260
05:36:20,228 --> 05:36:23,955
so, but just, just be very clear, the same thing will happen

3261
05:36:23,987 --> 05:36:26,799
next year is it'll be up to the mayor at the day to decide whether

3262
05:36:27,299 --> 05:36:30,922
they want to consider that or not. But I, to the Deputy Mayor's point,

3263
05:36:30,986 --> 05:36:33,630
I don't want to lose track of it. So noted.

3264
05:36:35,625 --> 05:36:38,680
So sure, if they want to put that in, that,

3265
05:36:38,729 --> 05:36:42,100
that it, it comes back to the— I think to the idea is that they'd

3266
05:36:42,600 --> 05:36:43,582
like it to go back to the way it always was.

3267
05:36:48,010 --> 05:36:51,985
The concern is that there's the heritage plan and the special recovery

3268
05:36:52,017 --> 05:36:55,298
project would be forgotten, and time. So just for simplicity,

3269
05:36:55,379 --> 05:36:59,657
if I may offer that the first line, that the long-range planning project

3270
05:37:00,157 --> 05:37:04,490
sheet, uh, uh, to defer to 2027

3271
05:37:04,702 --> 05:37:07,345
the 2026 special budget projects,

3272
05:37:11,006 --> 05:37:13,891
or whichever— whatever the clerk feels is most suitable.

3273
05:37:16,419 --> 05:37:20,136
Councillor earlier

3274
05:37:20,636 --> 05:37:23,760
that to defer something generally meant a year. Uh,

3275
05:37:23,985 --> 05:37:26,852
if, if that's true, we certainly don't need to add the year in there.

3276
05:37:26,981 --> 05:37:30,043
But if I'm wrong, then fine. Let's just, uh,

3277
05:37:30,269 --> 05:37:33,447
whatever needs to happen to move forward and get this done onto the next subject,

3278
05:37:33,495 --> 05:37:34,479
I'm for that.

3279
05:37:38,480 --> 05:37:41,106
Okay, any further questions or concerns regarding it?

3280
05:37:42,063 --> 05:37:45,257
Seeing none, all in favor? So moved. Thank you very

3281
05:37:45,757 --> 05:37:48,593
much, Councilor Muttah. Any other questions? Yes,

3282
05:37:48,963 --> 05:37:52,689
one last one. Sounds like a plan. Okay, so on,

3283
05:37:53,926 --> 05:37:57,412
on page 50, there is a reference to the marina workshop

3284
05:37:57,460 --> 05:37:59,934
roof is being replaced, which raises the question.

3285
05:38:00,609 --> 05:38:04,705
I believe the town has contracts for solar panel,

3286
05:38:04,962 --> 05:38:09,395
solar panel installations on many town-owned

3287
05:38:09,427 --> 05:38:13,186
roofs, and I was wondering if we could get an update

3288
05:38:13,363 --> 05:38:16,903
on that. That revenue-generating

3289
05:38:19,105 --> 05:38:22,521
process and whether the marina building or

3290
05:38:23,021 --> 05:38:27,089
the new roof on the, um, the proposed new roof on the utility

3291
05:38:27,186 --> 05:38:30,833
building could accommodate solar panels as well. I don't

3292
05:38:31,333 --> 05:38:33,904
think staff's going to have that answer today, but definitely I think we should take

3293
05:38:34,404 --> 05:38:38,340
note of that. I'm seeing a head bob from the director. We've heard

3294
05:38:38,993 --> 05:38:41,896
mixed emotions and mixed feelings and mixed facts around this.

3295
05:38:42,304 --> 05:38:45,928
When we look at the fire hall museum and that

3296
05:38:46,025 --> 05:38:49,698
building and all the complications that the town has had to address because

3297
05:38:49,810 --> 05:38:53,708
of that contract, I would suggest that we be very cautious moving

3298
05:38:53,740 --> 05:38:57,510
forward. I'm seeing the head bob of my CAO, or the CAO to

3299
05:38:58,010 --> 05:39:01,777
the right of me, agreeing with this fact that when we do those installations,

3300
05:39:01,825 --> 05:39:05,097
they often have a turnaround repayment of up to 10 or 20 years.

3301
05:39:05,931 --> 05:39:09,733
It requires future councils to then navigate a problem. But I saw

3302
05:39:10,627 --> 05:39:13,262
Director of Public Works— Director of Parks and Rec.

3303
05:39:13,921 --> 05:39:17,553
Thank you, Lucretia. Director Barker, no, and I'm sure she'll get back

3304
05:39:18,053 --> 05:39:20,390
to you with that study and/or report for the future.

3305
05:39:22,910 --> 05:39:26,829
Okay, going once, going twice, sold on Councilor

3306
05:39:27,329 --> 05:39:31,122
Métan's questions. We're sitting at 4:10. What would this council like

3307
05:39:31,622 --> 05:39:34,963
to do next? Councilor Buro.

3308
05:39:35,472 --> 05:39:38,139
If we could reconvene on another day if we need to.

3309
05:39:39,472 --> 05:39:43,087
I know I got— I gotta get going soon. Um, so yeah,

3310
05:39:43,103 --> 05:39:46,525
as I said, this budget is at the council's discretion for up to 30

3311
05:39:46,541 --> 05:39:49,995
days. Uh, this council gets to choose how many times they'd like to meet and

3312
05:39:50,075 --> 05:39:53,529
how many amendments. So, Councilor Matan, I would support

3313
05:39:53,706 --> 05:39:57,562
the Councillor Buro's, um, idea, and it would be very helpful

3314
05:39:58,062 --> 05:40:01,369
to have all the budget sheets up to updated,

3315
05:40:01,723 --> 05:40:05,206
uh, current current, uh, to the, uh, further the—

3316
05:40:05,544 --> 05:40:09,134
from discussions today. So, Councilor Matan, you're looking for some

3317
05:40:09,182 --> 05:40:12,965
of the amendments to be put into a draft budget. Is that what you're asking?

3318
05:40:15,788 --> 05:40:18,100
Because right now there's the mayor's draft budget,

3319
05:40:19,596 --> 05:40:23,144
and then there's a few amendments, but none of those amendments have actually been voted

3320
05:40:23,644 --> 05:40:26,319
on yet. Like, they're amended, but it's not— the budget hasn't been passed yet.

3321
05:40:26,724 --> 05:40:29,605
So they have been included in the budget. So those— perfect. So then we can

3322
05:40:30,105 --> 05:40:33,475
just simply have the Treasurer update the amended amendments to date, and then

3323
05:40:33,507 --> 05:40:36,994
you'll have that at the— I'm noticing a smile, which means that's possible.

3324
05:40:37,043 --> 05:40:39,808
Thank you. So yes, I think that's very plausible, uh,

3325
05:40:40,645 --> 05:40:43,543
Councilor Matane. Deputy Mayor. Thank you,

3326
05:40:43,559 --> 05:40:46,536
Mayor Cleveland. I was going to ask a similar question. So the amendments that have

3327
05:40:47,036 --> 05:40:50,405
been made today, if I can use the word— so now we have the mayor's

3328
05:40:50,502 --> 05:40:54,202
draft budget has now been revised as

3329
05:40:54,557 --> 05:40:57,966
a council budget now, the council

3330
05:40:58,466 --> 05:41:01,223
budget. I can use that language because— okay, Council, the, the draft 2026 budget has

3331
05:41:01,319 --> 05:41:05,358
been revised. I did send a motion to the clerk for consideration.

3332
05:41:05,470 --> 05:41:07,761
I don't know if this Council— oh, I mean, I'll put on the floor,

3333
05:41:07,970 --> 05:41:11,976
but if we reconvene again to just review the

3334
05:41:12,476 --> 05:41:16,078
revised budget, the beginning when we opened up, we did talk about some type of

3335
05:41:16,578 --> 05:41:20,324
community engagement. Um, I mean, I'm open to wordsmithing,

3336
05:41:20,389 --> 05:41:23,890
but I put this together earlier this this morning.

3337
05:41:24,180 --> 05:41:26,838
If there's a seconder, I'd be happy to speak to it, but I do what

3338
05:41:27,338 --> 05:41:31,060
I'm— Seconded

3339
05:41:31,560 --> 05:41:35,085
by Councilor Darling. May I? By all means. So again,

3340
05:41:35,101 --> 05:41:38,740
it's just to— so it's now the

3341
05:41:39,304 --> 05:41:42,182
council's— the community's budget. It's been revised,

3342
05:41:43,269 --> 05:41:46,967
putting on to engage COBurg with a short survey, or at least a simple—

3343
05:41:47,227 --> 05:41:51,626
and a simple form to collect feedback might

3344
05:41:52,126 --> 05:41:55,880
be helpful. I also wanted to include a presentation from the task force,

3345
05:41:55,961 --> 05:41:59,010
but I don't know if that— the task force report,

3346
05:42:01,520 --> 05:42:04,502
how pertinent that is at that time. I think we've done a good job of

3347
05:42:04,697 --> 05:42:07,338
working through. So in closing,

3348
05:42:08,026 --> 05:42:11,326
I feel a responsibility to put an invitation out to the community

3349
05:42:12,248 --> 05:42:15,821
to very short high-level survey, a pulse check on the budget,

3350
05:42:16,046 --> 05:42:19,308
and a correspondence form, um, so that we've

3351
05:42:19,357 --> 05:42:22,426
at least offered that, uh, invitation to, uh,

3352
05:42:22,490 --> 05:42:26,105
to the community. Um, and I've put in December

3353
05:42:26,605 --> 05:42:30,157
27th as a ballpark date. It could go into the new year. I would

3354
05:42:30,657 --> 05:42:33,883
look to the mayor and/or the clerk, um, to advise on, um,

3355
05:42:34,435 --> 05:42:36,044
the, the timelines before us.

3356
05:42:39,281 --> 05:42:42,112
Uh, CAO Vaughn, would you like to take a stab at that in terms of

3357
05:42:42,243 --> 05:42:46,207
this by 27th, meaning we're not until the new year till the second

3358
05:42:50,835 --> 05:42:53,703
I'm sorry, Your Worship, what are you asking me to take a stab at?

3359
05:42:55,877 --> 05:42:59,121
So the Deputy Mayor's put that forward. Sorry, I just wanted to see

3360
05:42:59,621 --> 05:43:03,399
that, if that's okay, that the next report would be gathered,

3361
05:43:03,415 --> 05:43:07,211
the public feedback would be gathered by December 27th, which would mean

3362
05:43:07,711 --> 05:43:11,728
the next special meeting of council would have to be after the December 27th revised,

3363
05:43:12,307 --> 05:43:15,633
and the next— the 30 days ends January 9th, I believe,

3364
05:43:16,115 --> 05:43:19,779
7th. So that— what would that mean is this budget would be approved

3365
05:43:20,279 --> 05:43:22,144
at some point between the 27th and the 7th.

3366
05:43:23,125 --> 05:43:26,262
Does that work for staff?

3367
05:43:30,742 --> 05:43:32,215
So, uh,

3368
05:43:34,014 --> 05:43:38,020
I think understanding that there are vacations that have

3369
05:43:38,520 --> 05:43:41,431
been scheduled during the holiday period. So being as respectful as that, I'm just taking

3370
05:43:41,931 --> 05:43:45,840
a quick look at our coverage just to see who is off

3371
05:43:46,340 --> 05:43:49,550
and on. Certainly staff are going to do everything in our power to

3372
05:43:50,560 --> 05:43:52,238
abide by the wishes of Council.

3373
05:43:54,946 --> 05:43:58,295
If we have a little bit of wiggle room in those dates

3374
05:43:58,327 --> 05:44:01,594
with respect to, you know, if we're gathering it by the 23rd, July 27th.

3375
05:44:01,674 --> 05:44:04,991
Let's have a few days that we have some turnaround time. So staff do

3376
05:44:05,120 --> 05:44:09,113
have a couple of vacation days that they have

3377
05:44:09,162 --> 05:44:13,279
some space to come back. If Council

3378
05:44:13,779 --> 05:44:17,169
wants to propose some, some dates, I'd be reluctant as

3379
05:44:17,669 --> 05:44:21,924
a staff member to suggest the date that Council would, but certainly a

3380
05:44:21,973 --> 05:44:25,374
few days' grace would be appreciated given the time of year.

3381
05:44:29,075 --> 05:44:31,544
Mr. Mayor. All right, by all means. I'm just writing a note there. Yes,

3382
05:44:31,608 --> 05:44:34,723
Councilor Darlington. Question, uh, for the rest of council,

3383
05:44:35,417 --> 05:44:38,857
we've got till the 7th, so as long as it's passed on the 7th,

3384
05:44:39,392 --> 05:44:40,365
is that correct?

3385
05:44:42,847 --> 05:44:46,350
Before the 7th. Okay, so we got basically looking at the

3386
05:44:46,850 --> 05:44:50,981
5th or 6th of January, which gives a few days after January

3387
05:44:51,481 --> 05:44:54,892
1st holiday. How does everybody look

3388
05:44:59,340 --> 05:45:02,916
So the question was asked by Councilor Darling about days. We'll hold that.

3389
05:45:02,996 --> 05:45:07,700
Councilor Buro, it's already on experiencecober.ca,

3390
05:45:08,150 --> 05:45:12,322
correct? So no, just to be very clear, Councilor Buro,

3391
05:45:12,338 --> 05:45:16,388
the mayor's draft budget is on Engage. What the deputy mayor

3392
05:45:16,470 --> 05:45:20,177
is suggesting is that that be replaced with the 2

3393
05:45:20,257 --> 05:45:24,328
amendments, the 2 amendments, so that the police— yeah,

3394
05:45:24,474 --> 05:45:26,865
the Police Reserves versus the Northern Reserves.

3395
05:45:32,877 --> 05:45:35,777
Thank you. We've had a few amendments today,

3396
05:45:36,261 --> 05:45:39,306
but so it's on Engage Cobourg. My understanding was, as I

3397
05:45:39,806 --> 05:45:42,937
look at it, so just the documents are there. There's been no, um,

3398
05:45:43,990 --> 05:45:47,635
survey, there's been no comment window for submissions.

3399
05:45:48,542 --> 05:45:52,026
It would be very late at this point. Again, I'm just standing by my personal

3400
05:45:52,526 --> 05:45:56,589
principle as a member of council on engagement.

3401
05:45:57,585 --> 05:46:01,265
That's all. I, I feel I have a responsibility to put this out

3402
05:46:01,281 --> 05:46:04,808
there for council to discuss. I recognize it's a very tight window,

3403
05:46:05,552 --> 05:46:09,355
um, so we can update

3404
05:46:09,855 --> 05:46:13,240
what's on EngageCo-op Algonquin Anishnaabeg, um, the task force. I would

3405
05:46:13,272 --> 05:46:16,975
love to have a few questions specifically about the task force

3406
05:46:17,475 --> 05:46:21,194
because to the earlier point, going into next year, if this

3407
05:46:21,694 --> 05:46:25,235
is a pulse check on where we're going, the community really has to have

3408
05:46:25,735 --> 05:46:28,193
an understanding of the reality we face.

3409
05:46:29,211 --> 05:46:30,378
I'll just leave it at that.

3410
05:46:33,150 --> 05:46:36,296
Councilor Matana, and just before your question, again, the other option is, is we could

3411
05:46:36,345 --> 05:46:39,471
just move to approve the budget. Budget as amended today. I just throwing that out

3412
05:46:39,519 --> 05:46:42,602
there. This council does have that ability as well. Councilor Mouton,

3413
05:46:43,693 --> 05:46:47,338
if I could ask the Director of Finance— so now we are looking at

3414
05:46:47,547 --> 05:46:51,417
calling this the council budget, it's the draft council budget.

3415
05:46:52,027 --> 05:46:55,142
Um, realistically, making these changes,

3416
05:46:55,720 --> 05:46:59,461
uh, making sure everything is, uh, okay, and posting

3417
05:46:59,509 --> 05:47:02,929
it on the Engage Cobourg website, how many

3418
05:47:03,476 --> 05:47:07,506
How many days would you need to do that realistically?

3419
05:47:09,630 --> 05:47:13,044
Through you, Mr. Mayor, to Councillor— to the Councillor,

3420
05:47:13,060 --> 05:47:16,522
I've been updating this stuff as we go, so I can get it done tomorrow

3421
05:47:17,022 --> 05:47:20,304
morning. I would— sorry, I would suggest that Director Gittings was hopeful that we would

3422
05:47:20,320 --> 05:47:23,322
have a budget document for today at the end of this meeting, so that he's

3423
05:47:23,822 --> 05:47:27,308
been going on the fly because staff are eager to get those orders out to

3424
05:47:27,808 --> 05:47:30,861
get this work going. That's what I was referring to here. About that.

3425
05:47:30,909 --> 05:47:34,656
So, uh, by all means. Um, yeah, I,

3426
05:47:35,351 --> 05:47:38,436
I for one don't have any other cuts or amendments

3427
05:47:38,936 --> 05:47:42,209
to the budget. Um, I'm— if anybody else does,

3428
05:47:43,133 --> 05:47:46,374
let me know, but I'm, I'm okay with passing it today.

3429
05:47:49,250 --> 05:47:52,911
Councilor Garland? Yeah, just, uh, for the final number, we've thrown around a

3430
05:47:53,411 --> 05:47:57,364
bunch of numbers here. Just what is with all the amendments today? 8, what is

3431
05:47:57,397 --> 05:48:01,109
the final number? Uh,

3432
05:48:01,400 --> 05:48:04,690
through you— uh, sorry, long day— through you,

3433
05:48:04,706 --> 05:48:08,604
Mayor, to the councillor, uh, the final is right now at 3.01%.

3434
05:48:14,450 --> 05:48:18,349
At this point, uh, so this is the options, um, so we

3435
05:48:18,397 --> 05:48:22,441
right now we have a motion on the floor to push

3436
05:48:22,506 --> 05:48:25,650
this back and have another meeting. We can deal with that, or we can do

3437
05:48:25,714 --> 05:48:29,208
what this council wants. Again, the council's budget has been done.

3438
05:48:29,401 --> 05:48:31,558
We've got 3-point. I'm open to suggestions.

3439
05:48:33,290 --> 05:48:36,694
By all means, Councillor Darling. Yes, I second this motion. I kind

3440
05:48:37,194 --> 05:48:39,211
of agree with that the Deputy Mayor is saying, but, uh,

3441
05:48:40,502 --> 05:48:42,890
no matter what we pass and when we pass it, there's still going to be

3442
05:48:43,390 --> 05:48:47,206
complaints. So I'm thinking 3.01. We're not going to do

3443
05:48:47,706 --> 05:48:51,567
much better than that, and uh, with the holidays and everything

3444
05:48:51,663 --> 05:48:54,153
else that's going on, I don't know how many people are going to be that

3445
05:48:54,653 --> 05:48:57,527
interested in the next couple weeks of what's really going on. But, uh,

3446
05:48:58,250 --> 05:49:01,639
so I'm not going to support the amendment that I seconded, and I would put

3447
05:49:02,139 --> 05:49:06,041
a new amendment on the floor if this one fails. So are you pulling your

3448
05:49:06,089 --> 05:49:09,750
seconding at this point, Councilor John? Because that— you're allowed to do that. I'll just

3449
05:49:10,250 --> 05:49:11,663
pull the motion. Motion pulled. Noted.

3450
05:49:13,561 --> 05:49:20,847
Motion on the floor. Would anyone like to propose a new motion? Councilor Councillor—

3451
05:49:20,960 --> 05:49:24,334
I propose that we accept the budget as amended.

3452
05:49:26,400 --> 05:49:29,756
Noted. Do I have a seconder at this time? Seconded by Councillor Buro. We— oh,

3453
05:49:29,772 --> 05:49:32,967
sorry, sorry, I caught you late there, Councillor Burkett. I am seeing you, and I

3454
05:49:33,467 --> 05:49:36,357
appreciate the clerk's team having him up on the screen at all times. If we

3455
05:49:36,857 --> 05:49:40,682
can somehow figure out how to do that moving forward— pardon

3456
05:49:41,182 --> 05:49:43,522
me, we have a report for that, of course. To have a report for that,

3457
05:49:43,650 --> 05:49:46,815
but, uh, I look forward to that report. But yeah, thank you very much.

3458
05:49:46,880 --> 05:49:50,269
So we now have a mover and a seconder to accept the amended budget.

3459
05:49:50,317 --> 05:49:52,727
Now, when we're talking about the amended budget, are we talking about all of the

3460
05:49:53,227 --> 05:49:56,133
budgets, or are we talking about the operating budget first, then we're going to pick

3461
05:49:56,633 --> 05:49:58,591
it and go through all of them? Or did we want to just do a

3462
05:49:59,091 --> 05:50:02,623
single motion that approves all the budgets? It's open to, uh, council's choice,

3463
05:50:02,768 --> 05:50:06,286
and I just want to be very clear. Councillor Darling, um, as we've had very

3464
05:50:06,302 --> 05:50:09,692
little discussion on the other ones, I think everybody's all quite agreeable on the

3465
05:50:10,192 --> 05:50:13,239
other ones as far as operating capital, environmental, and stormwater.

3466
05:50:13,704 --> 05:50:16,849
So I would propose that all 2026 budgets be approved at

3467
05:50:17,349 --> 05:50:19,947
this time. So the clerk's team, just to be clear, we've got a clarification from

3468
05:50:20,043 --> 05:50:23,461
the mover. I'll check with the seconder that he supports that motion, that all 5

3469
05:50:23,493 --> 05:50:26,478
budgets are approved in a single motion, not just operating capital,

3470
05:50:26,527 --> 05:50:30,009
but also stormwater, environmental capital, and what's the

3471
05:50:30,509 --> 05:50:33,700
last one I'm missing? I know there's a 5th one. Operating capital,

3472
05:50:33,716 --> 05:50:37,215
stormwater, environmental, and environmental

3473
05:50:37,715 --> 05:50:41,095
capital. Environmental capital. That's the one I always forget. Forget it, I appreciate it.

3474
05:50:41,144 --> 05:50:44,945
Sometimes it takes a while for me to catch up, Director. Um, so that's

3475
05:50:45,445 --> 05:50:48,646
all 5, so we're going to put all 5, uh, to accept as amended.

3476
05:50:51,070 --> 05:50:54,754
The council approve, and it's no longer the mayor's budget. Council approve.

3477
05:50:54,883 --> 05:50:58,674
It is the council amended budget. You— I will

3478
05:50:58,787 --> 05:51:02,749
call it, you know, names matter. Mr. Larmer, go ahead.

3479
05:51:02,798 --> 05:51:05,955
Mr. Larmer, so through you, uh, this motion

3480
05:51:06,455 --> 05:51:09,807
is good, it provides direction, but the 30 days doesn't matter about this.

3481
05:51:09,872 --> 05:51:12,152
So it's 30 days. So even Council makes this motion today,

3482
05:51:12,842 --> 05:51:17,097
January 7th is when the date of the budget will come in effect. So my

3483
05:51:17,597 --> 05:51:21,272
suggestion is Council has authority to reduce the number of days needed

3484
05:51:21,772 --> 05:51:25,141
for the passing of the budget. So I have a suggestion just to make us

3485
05:51:25,206 --> 05:51:28,722
all clear, if that's okay, Mr. Chair, Your Worship,

3486
05:51:29,300 --> 05:51:32,860
is that maybe we pass this direction,

3487
05:51:33,440 --> 05:51:37,140
to the Treasurer, myself, to prepare that motion for the Wednesday regular

3488
05:51:37,640 --> 05:51:40,900
meeting, to have it on the agenda with a date to

3489
05:51:41,400 --> 05:51:44,620
amend the timeframe for the approval of the budget from 30 days.

3490
05:51:45,120 --> 05:51:47,440
If Council has an ability, we can debate, you guys can debate at that time.

3491
05:51:47,940 --> 05:51:50,960
You might hear for a couple days from the public, but that's just an option.

3492
05:51:51,460 --> 05:51:53,880
Or you can prove it all today, but you still would have to reduce the

3493
05:51:54,380 --> 05:51:57,680
number of days anyway. So either meeting, so it allows the Treasurer and

3494
05:51:58,180 --> 05:52:00,671
ourselves to kind of gather our thoughts to get a good motion for you,

3495
05:52:00,799 --> 05:52:03,580
how you want for the public to see, but totally up to this council.

3496
05:52:03,628 --> 05:52:06,924
But the days have to be reduced. Other than that, it'd be January 7th

3497
05:52:07,424 --> 05:52:10,848
that would take effect, even with this motion today. Notice the motion right now,

3498
05:52:10,979 --> 05:52:14,259
just— okay, so I've understood that. Does anyone else have clarification on

3499
05:52:14,759 --> 05:52:18,638
that? Um, so the suggestion

3500
05:52:19,138 --> 05:52:22,204
from Mr. Larimer is to simply hold till Wednesday to make a final and sound

3501
05:52:22,704 --> 05:52:26,028
vote. I'm seeing some nods of approval, but that's the move. Um, does anyone

3502
05:52:26,045 --> 05:52:29,973
want Because even if we do approve a full exception and support the

3503
05:52:30,473 --> 05:52:34,024
budget, that doesn't mean that council can't call a secondary meeting and make amendments

3504
05:52:34,524 --> 05:52:37,866
at that point. There still is within that 30. So we can simply approve this

3505
05:52:38,366 --> 05:52:41,887
motion. If council decides to change their mind, they can call a second meeting and

3506
05:52:42,000 --> 05:52:45,455
amend it. On Wednesday, we're going to hear from the treasurer and Mr. Larimer,

3507
05:52:46,181 --> 05:52:49,456
a suggestion of how to shorten that period, and then we'll go forward with that.

3508
05:52:52,069 --> 05:52:54,695
Thank you. The only piece I wanted to add is that working with Mr.

3509
05:52:54,761 --> 05:52:58,646
Gittings in communications, we could update community engagement pages. So that

3510
05:52:59,146 --> 05:53:02,425
it's very clear what the amendments were as a result of the meetings today.

3511
05:53:02,538 --> 05:53:05,703
So then the public is aware prior to Wednesday what

3512
05:53:05,751 --> 05:53:09,506
council is actually contemplating. So then it is out in the public domain,

3513
05:53:09,522 --> 05:53:12,791
'cause I think that's very important. So just wanted to capture that piece

3514
05:53:12,904 --> 05:53:16,221
as well, that we will ensure that that is made public as soon as possible.

3515
05:53:16,706 --> 05:53:19,284
So in that case, I guess we're gonna defer this vote and it would be

3516
05:53:19,784 --> 05:53:20,943
the maneuver, right? We defer.

3517
05:53:23,489 --> 05:53:26,681
Yeah, so basically we said we have We haven't— we

3518
05:53:27,181 --> 05:53:30,691
had moved it, we had seconded it. The motion was to approve and it's fulsome,

3519
05:53:30,707 --> 05:53:33,746
but what we're hearing now is a deferral of this motion till Wednesday is what

3520
05:53:33,762 --> 05:53:37,230
I'm hearing. So moved by the defer— so deferred by Councilor Darling,

3521
05:53:37,327 --> 05:53:40,605
second defer— or seconded by Councilor Beothuk to defer till Wednesday.

3522
05:53:44,429 --> 05:53:47,551
It's okay, we're just working through the, uh— I,

3523
05:53:47,696 --> 05:53:50,819
I like when the clerks have to figure out exactly the minutia detail.

3524
05:53:51,322 --> 05:53:53,650
It's, it's why they are the clerks.

3525
05:55:00,472 --> 05:55:03,613
Okay, so now we have the motion to refer, moved by Councilor

3526
05:55:04,113 --> 05:55:07,603
Darling, seconded by Councilor Buro. The council refer the motion regarding the

3527
05:55:08,103 --> 05:55:11,243
budget to the December 17th, 2025 Okay, perfect. We can read.

3528
05:55:12,093 --> 05:55:15,959
Any further questions on the comments? Seeing none, all in favor? So moved.

3529
05:55:16,601 --> 05:55:19,280
That puts us to confirmatory bylaw.

3530
05:55:20,692 --> 05:55:23,821
So I need a mover and a seconder. There's a confirmatory. So moved by Councillor

3531
05:55:24,321 --> 05:55:27,671
Barber. Do I have a seconder for the confirmatory bylaw? Councillor Burkett, I saw on

3532
05:55:28,171 --> 05:55:32,099
Pompous. Is that correct? Yeah, got the head wave. Perfect. Thank you. Any questions,

3533
05:55:32,147 --> 05:55:35,420
concerns? Seeing none, all in favor? So moved. Thank you very much,

3534
05:55:35,516 --> 05:55:39,174
Council. We will adjourn this meeting, being there no further business.

3535
05:55:39,627 --> 05:55:52,349
Business at 4:25

3536
05:55:52,849 --> 05:55:55,308
PM. Signature, sir. You and your—