1 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,519 This is the previous meeting minutes. 2 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:40,600 to turn this one off. >> Let me see. 3 00:00:36,239 --> 00:00:40,600 » I just put new batteries in it. 4 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:58,559 » We need to start. >> Well, normally you hold it down for a 5 00:00:56,239 --> 00:01:04,159 while. Okay, you got it on. Okay, 6 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:09,600 » it's not working. Um, >> never mind. We need to start. 7 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:11,840 » Somebody Somebody wants to talk to you. >> Have them stand up to the mic. 8 00:01:11,439 --> 00:01:13,200 » Okay. >> Okay. Yes. 9 00:01:12,799 --> 00:01:19,200 » Good. >> Now 6:35. 10 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:22,159 I'm calling the meeting to order. Um, let's have a roll call. Lee Abernathy 11 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:26,960 present. >> Dixie Kovage present. 12 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:30,880 » Yep. Dave Marshy, present. Okay. 13 00:01:28,479 --> 00:01:34,079 » Um, let's see. Next thing we need to do is 14 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:37,651 » Oh, yeah. I'm sorry. >> Yeah. 15 00:01:35,631 --> 00:01:37,651 [clears throat] 16 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:45,920 » I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the 17 00:01:43,119 --> 00:01:50,560 republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and 18 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:54,000 justice for all. Thank you for reminding me. 19 00:01:52,079 --> 00:01:56,479 Did that. We should have done that first before the roll call. We already did. 20 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:59,840 They were open. >> Okay. 21 00:01:57,119 --> 00:02:04,159 » Okay. Um, do I have a motion to accept the agenda 22 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:07,439 as it's as it's been handed out to everybody? 23 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:10,479 » Okay. >> I will make a motion we accept the 24 00:02:09,119 --> 00:02:12,400 agenda >> as is. 25 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:18,560 » That's >> I second it. 26 00:02:13,920 --> 00:02:22,239 » Okay. All those in favor? Uh, Dave >> I Lee I Dixie 27 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:27,360 » I >> Okay. 28 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:30,480 Um the agenda for this is first thing we're going to do what 29 00:02:28,319 --> 00:02:34,160 » with the prior minutes there. >> Yeah. Next thing is the previous 30 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:36,879 minutes. So has everybody had a chance to read the previous minutes? 31 00:02:36,239 --> 00:02:42,400 » Yes, I did. >> August 24th. I think it was August 24th 32 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:45,840 20 October 28th of 2024. 33 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:47,360 » 24th 20. I knew there was a four in there someplace. 34 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:52,080 » Yeah. >> Okay. I I did read it and I believe that 35 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:57,280 there's a correction on it under um finding a fact number eight. It says 36 00:02:55,040 --> 00:03:03,120 that Lee Abernathy moved to deny the variance requests for George and Barbara 37 00:02:59,599 --> 00:03:08,720 Deeos for section 3.03 3 um for the setback of the zoning ordinance and it 38 00:03:05,599 --> 00:03:11,840 should not say to not remove because we said to remove 39 00:03:10,640 --> 00:03:17,040 » to remove. >> Yes. Demolish the 8 by32 porch because 40 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:21,519 the standards were not met per finding of facts. 41 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:23,760 » Okay. Any discussion on that change? >> Um Dave, 42 00:03:22,640 --> 00:03:29,040 » no, >> I don't have any discussion. You have a 43 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:33,360 you did you get it recorded? >> Yep. 44 00:03:29,519 --> 00:03:38,560 » Okay. So, do I have a motion to approve the minutes as amended? 45 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:40,000 » I'll make that motion. >> I second it. 46 00:03:39,519 --> 00:03:43,120 » Okay. >> Okay. Dave, how do you vote? 47 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:44,640 » Yes. >> Yes. 48 00:03:43,599 --> 00:03:47,200 » I vote yes. >> Yes. 49 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:50,159 » Yes. Okay. >> Okay. 50 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:56,720 » Lee, sorry. Uh, we actually do need to add election of officers to the agenda. 51 00:03:52,720 --> 00:04:01,040 » Yeah. Um, so when we get the agenda, we should have actually amended them to add 52 00:03:58,799 --> 00:04:04,000 the election of officers. >> Yeah. 53 00:04:01,439 --> 00:04:08,879 » And we would actually do that right now. >> Okay. 54 00:04:05,599 --> 00:04:12,640 Okay. So, >> so [clears throat] the election 55 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:17,519 currently I'm the chairperson. Dave, you're the secretary. You're the vice 56 00:04:14,319 --> 00:04:22,160 chair. Okay. Because you feel you that's that's what's currently the question is 57 00:04:20,079 --> 00:04:24,960 do we want to change that? We want to I don't have a problem with changing if 58 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:27,680 you would like to be present. >> I'm I'm fine with the way it is. 59 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:30,960 » Dave, >> Right. 60 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:35,840 » So, somebody's got to make a motion to to retain the officers as they stand 61 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:41,199 right now with Abernathy being president, Dixie being vice president, 62 00:04:38,479 --> 00:04:44,240 and Dave being secretary. We have a motion for that. 63 00:04:42,639 --> 00:04:47,840 » I'll make that motion. >> I second it. 64 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:53,199 » Okay. The motion stands for Abernathy to be president, Dixie to be vice chair, 65 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:56,000 and Dave to be secretary. >> Dave, how do you vote? 66 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:57,600 » Yes. >> I'll vote yes. 67 00:04:57,199 --> 00:05:00,639 » Yeah. >> Yes. Okay. 68 00:04:58,479 --> 00:05:03,440 » Who actually made the motion? I'm sorry. >> Dave made the motion. Dixie seconded. 69 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:06,479 » Okay. Thank you. >> Okay. 70 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:10,479 » Okay. >> Okay. 71 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:14,479 » Um Okay. Do we do the are we going to do 72 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:20,560 the communications now or are we going to We are going I think close. 73 00:05:17,759 --> 00:05:26,759 » Yeah. Well, that's not that's not on your set of of of agendas, but on the 74 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:32,400 secretary, >> we're talking about going into close 75 00:05:31,840 --> 00:05:35,600 sessions. >> Um then we need to amend the agenda. 76 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:39,199 That's not on there. >> It is on the 77 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:41,759 » It was on It was on It was on the first agenda that I got. 78 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,280 » Well, it's been revised several different times. 79 00:05:42,639 --> 00:05:47,520 » Yeah. >> So, the one that was going 80 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:54,440 uh from has >> has has the one that I'm operating on 81 00:05:50,479 --> 00:05:54,440 here not this week 82 00:05:55,520 --> 00:06:00,880 » has it right here going into close session 83 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:04,160 » correct I don't think I have >> okay 84 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:09,039 » I think okay 85 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:12,800 » okay we need we need to have a motion >> um here let me if I may approach I'm 86 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:16,160 going to I have some specific motion language for you guys And if you don't 87 00:06:14,639 --> 00:06:22,000 have this in front of you, I just want to make sure that we're reading that 88 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:26,479 correctly. Um, so here is the motion language right there that you're going 89 00:06:24,319 --> 00:06:29,919 » Okay. I'd like to move to enter and close session at um 90 00:06:29,039 --> 00:06:35,520 » 641 >> 6:41 91 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:41,680 um p.m. to consider material exempt from discussion or disclosure by statute 92 00:06:37,919 --> 00:06:46,160 under MCL 15.268H. 268H 93 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:52,800 specifically identified as attorney client privilege written legal opinion. 94 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:55,520 Do I have that motion? Did somebody >> You need a second and then you'll do 95 00:06:54,319 --> 00:06:58,160 roll call vote. >> Okay. 96 00:06:55,840 --> 00:07:03,599 » Okay. That was a motion. I'll second it. >> Okay. You second it. I made the motion. 97 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:05,440 You seconded it. Roll call. David. >> I vote yes. 98 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:09,520 » Yes. >> Okay, guys. We're going to go into close 99 00:07:07,280 --> 00:07:11,840 sessions and soon as we come out, we're going to go in the other room. You guys 100 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:13,120 stay here. >> Yeah, 101 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:17,120 » you guys stay here. >> Yeah, 102 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:21,759 » I guess I don't need >> I don't need any of the stuff. I'm going 103 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:27,039 to take this stuff. >> No, 104 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:30,160 we're just going to go and >> Thank you. 105 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:32,800 » You guys No, I hear 106 00:07:31,759 --> 00:07:36,595 » No, that's okay. >> We're going off the same agenda. So, 107 00:07:34,575 --> 00:07:36,595 [laughter] 108 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:40,360 There's 109 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:48,360 two as long as you're not fighting. 110 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:23,040 Oh yeah. 111 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:48,399 I don't 112 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:29,640 What is it? 113 00:11:53,360 --> 00:12:00,920 But then each She's 114 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:00,920 already 115 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:09,079 for some purple. 116 00:12:05,839 --> 00:12:09,079 It's very 117 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:41,079 Okay. Okay. 118 00:16:08,079 --> 00:16:11,560 Yeah, sure. 119 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,280 Yeah. 120 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,880 Thanks, guys. 121 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:55,320 You already got You already got stuck up. 122 00:35:50,720 --> 00:35:55,320 » Thank you so much. I appreciate it. 123 00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:08,400 » Don't mind. I was drinking it on the way up here. Thank you. 124 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,400 » I'm parched. Thank you. 125 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:22,880 Okay, we're going to reopen the meeting at 711. 126 00:36:21,119 --> 00:36:27,200 » Have a motion to close close session. >> Oh, okay. Do I have a motion to close 127 00:36:25,599 --> 00:36:29,440 close session at 711? >> I'll make that motion. 128 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,200 » I'll second it. >> Dave, how do you vote? 129 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:35,119 » Yes. >> I vote yes. 130 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:38,880 » Yes. Yes. >> Okay. 131 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:45,119 Um, okay. We already did the previous minutes. We went into close session. Now 132 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:50,000 we're at the uh public meeting public hearing portion of this meeting. Um, 133 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:53,680 we're going to do that at 7:11. We're going to uh 134 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:57,839 » Well, first, sorry, Lee. Um, we're going to have Tasha and then the applicants go 135 00:36:55,839 --> 00:37:00,800 up, then you can open it to public comment. 136 00:36:58,720 --> 00:37:01,680 » Yeah. Well, yeah, I would say. Okay. I'm sorry. 137 00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:07,280 » You got it. >> Okay. So Tasha, could you please present 138 00:37:04,240 --> 00:37:12,240 your finding or facts or whatever it is? >> Um, on June 30th, I sent the applicant, 139 00:37:10,079 --> 00:37:17,760 the builder, Road Scope Construction, a letter denying the construction plans 140 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:23,839 due to not meeting the required minimum exterior width of 14 ft of 410 C. 141 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:28,800 Um, before the letter, I had email exchanges 142 00:37:26,079 --> 00:37:36,160 with the owner to go over the ordinance language and how that I interpreted. And 143 00:37:32,240 --> 00:37:44,320 those emails are part of the packet. Um, so we did go over the design and I've 144 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:49,040 had a few discussions before. I've been 145 00:37:46,079 --> 00:37:58,240 uh the home is not a typical 14 by 70 or 24 by 40. The home is a T-shaped. So, 146 00:37:53,440 --> 00:38:04,400 it's a not your normal, not that any home is normal, but you know, most homes 147 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:12,000 are boxes or rectangles or this one. Um, the dimensions are 12.5x 43.11 148 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:19,280 and 12.5x 23. Um, it's kind of two sections, kind of a 149 00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:24,480 T slightly allsided T-shaped. Um, at first glance, not each exterior 150 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:28,800 width is 14 ft. Three exterior widths are only 12.5. 151 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:35,520 Um, I did try to think outside of the box to try to create in four sides of 152 00:38:31,839 --> 00:38:41,280 the 14 ft. Uh, but only three of them had 14, but that was an internal 153 00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:47,200 dimension and not exterior. >> The ordinance says external exterior 154 00:38:43,839 --> 00:38:52,960 width. Um I interpret the exterior width at any side any exterior wall to be not 155 00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:59,920 less than 14 ft but also knowing that all all homes are square or rectangle 156 00:38:55,359 --> 00:39:03,720 boxes and that is why I denied the home. That's my two cents. 157 00:39:04,079 --> 00:39:08,800 » Now Trevor 158 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:13,520 » yeah for everyone just record you this is Ben and Trevor is here with me. Um, 159 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:21,200 we're here to appeal and essentially request that board reverses the denial 160 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:25,920 and uh corrects the interpretation and applies uh our building permit or 161 00:39:23,599 --> 00:39:31,040 accepts our building permit. The reason for this is you may have noticed there 162 00:39:28,240 --> 00:39:35,680 was no mention of side elevation. Um, and the ordinance clearly talks about 163 00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:42,800 side elevation and that's an important word to reference. Um each ordinance, 164 00:39:39,599 --> 00:39:48,960 every word, clause and sentence in an ordinance is intended to be specific and 165 00:39:45,839 --> 00:39:51,839 lack interpret room for interpretation which there was admission of 166 00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:55,599 interpretation in [clears throat] the findings here on 167 00:39:53,520 --> 00:40:03,599 page 25. Also um in Michigan um any part courts 168 00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:08,880 must avoid uh construction that renders any part of 169 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:13,520 the ordinance as extra or unnecessary which means that each word in this 170 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:18,720 ordinance is important. Mhm. So that is why we're here to appeal that um because 171 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:26,480 a side elevation by definition plain and ordinary language is from an outside 172 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:32,240 looking in the width from end to end and not any single wall segment whether 173 00:40:28,720 --> 00:40:35,960 there's a protrusion or depression. So that is why I work there. 174 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:41,599 » I'd like to ask some questions. You okay to talk to them now? Yeah, you can ask 175 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:46,000 that question sir. >> So you said go back to that last part 176 00:40:44,240 --> 00:40:51,760 where you said the >> interpretation is it's any wall. I mean 177 00:40:48,720 --> 00:40:55,599 what is what is what is that based on? >> So 178 00:40:53,359 --> 00:41:00,240 um the zoning ordinance says a minimum or an exterior width at any side 179 00:40:58,240 --> 00:41:06,240 elevation. It doesn't specifically say an exterior wall segment 180 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:10,640 on the side elevation. So, our interpretation and everyone that we've 181 00:41:08,079 --> 00:41:16,880 talked to, our builder, our contractor, local contractor here, um the architect 182 00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:22,000 of the home is interpreting it as the exterior width at the side elevation, 183 00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:24,480 which would be a 2D. You're standing outside of the 184 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:30,480 » two dimensional look at that >> flat distance from one point to the 185 00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:36,040 other regardless of any that's been said protrusions or depressions in the lid 186 00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:36,040 bone. 187 00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:44,240 I have more questions, but we'll go. You >> Oh, no. Keep going. 188 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:48,800 » Any questions? >> I understand what you said. 189 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:52,319 » Okay. >> Okay. So, let's uh we do have some 190 00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:55,440 outside input. Is this >> Yeah, I would open it for public 191 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:59,040 hearing. >> But 192 00:41:56,319 --> 00:42:02,240 » yeah. Okay. If there's anybody here, I don't see anybody else in 193 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:06,720 » but you can go ahead and >> if you have correspondence. Yes. Um 194 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:08,720 » we have um correspondents. >> Can you guys hear? Okay. 195 00:42:07,839 --> 00:42:13,200 » Yes. >> From Karen Gruss. 196 00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:17,440 » She said um I don't think that I can attend the ZBA meeting, but want to 197 00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:24,280 weigh in on the subject property 0157850th 198 00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:24,280 Street, parcel number 80630435. 199 00:42:25,359 --> 00:42:31,440 There appears to be a disagreement in terminology. I don't think the zoning 200 00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:38,079 vernacular necessarily has to match designer interpretation. When I read 201 00:42:34,079 --> 00:42:45,680 zoning text of in quotations and minimum exterior width at any site elevation of 202 00:42:40,319 --> 00:42:50,640 14 ft end quote, I took it to mean each slashall sides as the zoning 203 00:42:47,839 --> 00:42:54,800 administrator did. In architectural design, a building elevation is a flat 204 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:59,680 scale drawing that shows only one viewpoint of a vertical surface of a 205 00:42:57,359 --> 00:43:03,440 building. Jogs and overlaps can cause elevation drawings to hide important 206 00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:08,079 details, which in part of the reason that other drawings such as floor plans 207 00:43:05,599 --> 00:43:12,960 and sections are also needed for a more complete picture. I personally like 208 00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:19,200 their design, but they essentially joined a narrow appendage onto another 209 00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:24,319 rectangle, creating seven side wall planes, three of which are 12 and 1/2 210 00:43:21,839 --> 00:43:28,800 ft. So, I agree with the ZBA determination. It appears that our 211 00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:34,240 zoning administrator directly gave more weight to the actual building structure 212 00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:37,760 than to mere depictions used by a designer. Respectfully, Karen Grass 213 00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:42,760 08164 51st and a half street, Van Junction, 214 00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,760 Michigan. 215 00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:50,240 » Any other comments from the public at all? 216 00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:53,280 » Did you write down kind of what you just read for 217 00:43:51,839 --> 00:43:57,359 » I would like to have a copy that >> written in. 218 00:43:54,240 --> 00:44:00,240 » It's reported down. Sorry. 219 00:43:58,079 --> 00:44:06,319 » That kind of was how you just defined your side. Is it like written in the The 220 00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:10,640 definition of a side elevation. >> No, like the whole like your whole side. 221 00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:14,240 Know how I kind of read mine and you read yours? 222 00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:19,920 » I'm sorry. >> So for the record, 223 00:44:17,359 --> 00:44:24,240 » we could take it off from the owl. >> That's in the in the meeting minutes. 224 00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:27,599 You can now note that. >> Yeah. Um but if we're done, I think 225 00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:30,400 we're done with public comment and stuff like unless there's other 226 00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:34,400 correspondents. So let's close the the public hearing portion then. There are 227 00:44:32,079 --> 00:44:38,240 no other com public comments that I know of. No other correspondents. Have you 228 00:44:36,319 --> 00:44:41,440 received anything else? Read all the notes. 229 00:44:39,119 --> 00:44:48,560 » Okay. Then uh if if that's the case, I'd like to close the public comment 230 00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:53,119 » session of this at [clears throat] 7:19. Okay. 231 00:44:50,319 --> 00:44:56,480 So, we are now at the point where we get to discuss this. Ask anybody anything. 232 00:44:55,599 --> 00:44:57,440 Right. >> So, 233 00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:00,400 » okay. >> Well, who would you like to what would 234 00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:03,760 you like to talk about? How do you feel about it? Well, I I did some research on 235 00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:08,160 this. >> Okay, feel free. 236 00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:12,800 » And and and based on my research, it seems like 237 00:45:10,079 --> 00:45:18,400 um per their application, it's the interpretation of the minimum exterior 238 00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:21,440 width of any site elevation of 14 ft. Correct. 239 00:45:19,359 --> 00:45:26,640 » That's what so that's what I concentrated on. And within our zoning 240 00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:32,800 ordinance, it does not have a definition for that. So I went to a standard 241 00:45:29,599 --> 00:45:39,359 definition of the dictionary and so from American heritage dictionary it says a 242 00:45:35,599 --> 00:45:45,280 side is a line bound bound bounding a plain figure. So a plane mean like a 243 00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:50,960 geometric plane. Okay. So then I went to the definition of a plane from um Marian 244 00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:55,760 Webster dictionary. plane is a surface in which any two points are chosen a 245 00:45:53,520 --> 00:46:00,400 straight line joining them lies wholly in that surface. So therefore that would 246 00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:04,240 mean a side would be you go from this side to this side and the line has to 247 00:46:02,319 --> 00:46:09,440 touch all the way across is how I interpret that to me. 248 00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:12,960 » So then I went on and and I read like the architectural things where there's 249 00:46:11,119 --> 00:46:16,800 like front elevation, side elevation, rear elevations, interior elevations, 250 00:46:15,359 --> 00:46:23,280 there's all different types of elevations. So then what I did was I got 251 00:46:20,079 --> 00:46:27,040 into um architectural. There's this one um 252 00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:30,720 uh thing out on the internet and it said four types of elevations and 253 00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:39,200 architecture, a complete guide. So I went through and I read that and um it 254 00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:47,680 it goes into like front elevation, side, rear, interior, same thing again. and it 255 00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:51,760 it defines them as to what they are. And so 256 00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:59,200 when I read our zoning ordinances, it said any side elevation. So to me, what 257 00:46:56,400 --> 00:47:04,160 it means is from point to point. So then I said, okay, well, this is not um most 258 00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:07,520 houses aren't necessarily square where they have four sides. So they have a 259 00:47:05,359 --> 00:47:12,160 front and a back and a side and a side. So, I said, "Okay, well, let me let me 260 00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:19,359 see what they have for an octagonal house." Okay. And what they pulled up is 261 00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:24,640 that an octagon has eight sides. So, our zoning ordinances any side, they're 262 00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:29,760 saying an octagon has eight sides and it says that it's um it goes like 263 00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:34,640 elevations one through eight. It says the the front elevation side one, right 264 00:47:32,079 --> 00:47:39,040 elevation side two, rear rear elevation side three, you know, so on and so 265 00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:46,480 forth. going down. So, it defines with a definition each one of these sides. So, 266 00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:50,880 then I um decided, okay, well, let me let me see what if Lshaped house, what 267 00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:56,720 what are what are those sides? And I said, yeah, that breaks down into six 268 00:47:53,440 --> 00:48:02,880 sides. They have um two long outer sides, two short sides, and two short 269 00:47:59,359 --> 00:48:06,640 inner sides. So, um based on architecture, 270 00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:13,200 it defines a side. And I can see why our zoning ordinance would not have said um 271 00:48:11,119 --> 00:48:16,400 like four sides where why it said any side because you could have an L-shaped 272 00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:19,359 house, you could have an octagonal house, you could have a square house, 273 00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:22,079 you could have an oblong house, you could have all kinds of different 274 00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:26,960 dimensions. So how are you going to put that in the zoning ordinance with by 275 00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:32,640 using the word any? You're taking all of them into consideration. 276 00:48:30,240 --> 00:48:38,720 That's that's my interpretation. >> Dave G. [clears throat] 277 00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:41,680 So these are two 12 foot wide sections that come on wheels. 278 00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:46,319 » Am I correct? >> It's a modular one. Yes. So it gets 279 00:48:43,599 --> 00:48:49,839 built offsite and it gets attached on site. Yes. 280 00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:56,720 » So there's is there some reason why you chose 12 and 1/2 ft instead of 14. 281 00:48:53,440 --> 00:49:01,119 » That's standard from the builder. Um and they chose that. That's what they sell 282 00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:05,119 across the country. Um, they chose that because it reduces shipping costs and it 283 00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:09,119 they don't have to worry about road clearance and all of that as they make 284 00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:12,400 burns throughout the country. >> Okay. And permits and such. 285 00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:18,400 » Okay. >> Yeah. To follow along with his is his 286 00:49:15,359 --> 00:49:21,760 question. I mean, um, regardless of whether or not they're going to how they 287 00:49:19,839 --> 00:49:25,680 transport it and all that, is there a reason why they did it in the is there a 288 00:49:24,079 --> 00:49:30,640 reason why that it's built in the way that it is? I mean, literally, this 289 00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:35,200 whole argument is over a foot and a half. You know what I mean? They they 290 00:49:32,720 --> 00:49:41,760 offset that L shape a foot and a half and and for the life of me, I can't 291 00:49:37,119 --> 00:49:46,160 figure out what that serves. I mean, my question to you is is I 292 00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:50,559 presume you talked to a builder and said, you know, why do you do that? 293 00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:55,760 » Multiple times. Yeah. And they wrote their letter, so their information's in 294 00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:59,520 the packet. Um, we can't speak on behalf of the builder. They chose these 295 00:49:57,599 --> 00:50:02,960 dimensions. Um, we >> when we were decided to move forward 296 00:50:01,839 --> 00:50:08,400 with this, >> we did read the ordinance. 297 00:50:05,599 --> 00:50:12,240 » We felt like it qualified and met the standards, which is why 298 00:50:10,079 --> 00:50:15,280 » we already prepped our land and our property, 299 00:50:13,599 --> 00:50:19,280 » put a deposit down, >> applied for the building permit, and 300 00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:23,440 that's why we're here. Mhm. So, >> um I do also want to highlight that any 301 00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:27,839 verse call um because I think you bring up a fair point. It says any side 302 00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:33,040 elevation. Um it doesn't say all side elevations either. So when we look at 303 00:50:30,319 --> 00:50:39,119 this ordinance if you look at it in plain and ordinary language that could 304 00:50:36,240 --> 00:50:46,559 account for with your example five of the eight octagon sides. So again, 305 00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:50,319 there's also some there's a lot of interpretation happening with the 306 00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:54,319 ordinance because it doesn't say all side elevations, 307 00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:58,960 » but when it says any, any means any side, which would include all 308 00:50:56,480 --> 00:51:04,800 » two of ours in the way that some people are looking at the ordinance. Actually, 309 00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:07,280 four of ours meet this out of the six. So depending 310 00:51:05,599 --> 00:51:08,960 » what way when you say that, but in what way? 311 00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:10,800 » Yeah, I'll show you. >> Because we have 312 00:51:09,839 --> 00:51:13,599 » Yeah. Yeah, >> based on certain definitions that are 313 00:51:12,319 --> 00:51:19,200 being used, >> right? So, this one does not and this 314 00:51:16,720 --> 00:51:24,720 one does not. This one does. This one does. This one does. And this one does. 315 00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:26,559 See what I'm saying? >> Yeah, I see what you're saying, I guess. 316 00:51:26,319 --> 00:51:28,240 So, >> yeah, I agree with that. 317 00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:32,800 » Thank you. >> Also, I know this wasn't a question, but 318 00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:37,440 I would like to um highlight this. So, the the builder of this home has 319 00:51:34,559 --> 00:51:42,480 actually done um eight homes in in northern not northern Michigan, but up 320 00:51:39,359 --> 00:51:48,240 near Traverse City. And at that time, they were working in a similar situation 321 00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:52,800 like this against a 20 foot minimum side elevation. 322 00:51:49,760 --> 00:52:02,079 And this home was specifically designed, redesigned in this L-shaped way to meet 323 00:51:56,240 --> 00:52:05,839 that minimum up in Em. So, I mean, I appreciate the like enthusiasm around 324 00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:10,000 asking questions about, oh, can they just make it 14 ft? Like, this is 325 00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:14,000 something that, you know, we found that fit this 326 00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:18,640 » according to us and and the architect and the builder. So, that's why we 327 00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:23,599 decided to move forward not having honestly any expectation that we were 328 00:52:20,559 --> 00:52:27,599 gonna end up here right now. So, >> um 329 00:52:25,359 --> 00:52:32,720 I mean it's the Would it make sense to like easily be 330 00:52:30,319 --> 00:52:35,440 able to just modify it? Yes. But that's not an option for us. 331 00:52:34,240 --> 00:52:39,520 » It's not an option. >> I mean it's this is something that 332 00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:42,079 they're like this is designed. It's already got state of Michigan stamp 333 00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:45,839 approval. >> Yeah. I I went on their website. It's 334 00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:49,581 one of their standard homes, >> right? 335 00:52:47,119 --> 00:52:53,280 » Yeah. [clears throat] And it's not a mobile 336 00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:59,280 home. Like I understand that, you know, the 14 foot clause in here 337 00:52:56,319 --> 00:53:02,640 » is specific traditionally to prevent mobile homes from being placed where 338 00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:08,160 they shouldn't be. >> Yeah. But, you know, um, from the 339 00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:12,640 standpoint on on the website that that where you're where you're getting the 340 00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:18,319 home from, they have different, um, checklist for you to go through as to 341 00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:22,480 what needs to be done prior to actually ordering the home. 342 00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:26,240 » So, they give you options. >> Well, no, no, they're saying like um, 343 00:53:24,240 --> 00:53:29,119 check with the zoning, do, you know, whatever. I mean, so that was 344 00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:31,040 » so they recognize it as a potential problem, right? 345 00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:36,640 » Yes. they're saying that, you know, we want to be sure that it'll be able to um 346 00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:40,400 be acceptable for the zoning in the area that you're going to take it to. So, 347 00:53:38,559 --> 00:53:44,800 that was one of the first checkpoints that they had to go through prior to 348 00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:48,720 ordering it. >> So, okay. So, you ordered it after she 349 00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:52,559 denied it? >> No. 350 00:53:50,559 --> 00:53:58,240 » No, they won't release the blueprints until you put a deposit and you need the 351 00:53:54,559 --> 00:54:01,200 blueprints to submit for building. >> Say that again. lost. You lost me on 352 00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:06,800 that one. >> You need to put a deposit down to get 353 00:54:04,559 --> 00:54:09,599 the blueprints because from a business standpoint, they don't want people 354 00:54:08,079 --> 00:54:12,000 running off with their >> Yeah. 355 00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:16,240 » blueprints. So, you have to put the deposit down and they will give you the 356 00:54:14,079 --> 00:54:19,359 blueprints and the blueprints are what are needed 357 00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:22,559 » in order to go to the center. So, then they they really don't care what the 358 00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:24,880 zoning is. >> They do. 359 00:54:23,119 --> 00:54:30,000 » Did we get did we get blueprints or just what's off from their website? And they 360 00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:31,760 provided the plans in that packet. But yes, I 361 00:54:30,559 --> 00:54:34,800 » Oh, the actual blueprints. >> The actual blueprints. But 362 00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:39,040 » but they had to purchase those blueprints, right? 363 00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:41,280 » Packet. He they provided the plans in your packet. 364 00:54:39,839 --> 00:54:44,720 » Yeah. Yeah. Saw that. >> Right. Yeah. But they they had those 365 00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:47,200 exact same plans on the website. >> Yes. 366 00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:51,760 » Uh just less detail. Yeah. So we actually had to have those plans the 367 00:54:50,240 --> 00:54:55,920 specific plans for us where the microwave was, where the 368 00:54:53,839 --> 00:54:59,200 » uh washerd dryer is going to be. They had to go to the state of Michigan to 369 00:54:57,440 --> 00:55:01,040 get approved and stamped and that has our 370 00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:04,160 » You mean for them? Not you? >> No, for our building or our specific 371 00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:08,880 drawing. >> So the state of Michigan requires that 372 00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:13,920 any modular home go through the state for stamping prior to um the building 373 00:55:12,240 --> 00:55:17,920 permit process. >> Correct. Correct. Yes. 374 00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:22,079 » The state has already approved this. >> Yes. 375 00:55:20,079 --> 00:55:27,119 Modulars are stick built homes that are approved by the state and then they 376 00:55:24,240 --> 00:55:30,119 » but that's separate from zoning deter determined 377 00:55:33,359 --> 00:55:44,480 » so so you're saying um that and this is just a side thing. So, you're saying 378 00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:51,280 that um a a builder, a a modular home builder, they don't have their standard 379 00:55:48,319 --> 00:55:56,400 home certified by the state of Michigan. Every time that someone wants one of 380 00:55:54,559 --> 00:56:00,319 those homes, it keeps going back to the state. Even though it's the same cookie 381 00:55:58,240 --> 00:56:06,400 cutter, >> each of them are individually approved. 382 00:56:02,799 --> 00:56:10,720 Yes. after after they they've a purchase piece, they have to put a deposit down 383 00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:17,520 in order to get the plans to get it approved. So, they're they're stuck. 384 00:56:14,319 --> 00:56:21,520 » Well, given this scenario, in order for you guys to build this place, you have 385 00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:25,920 to lay money down on the table in order to get the plans to take it to the 386 00:56:23,599 --> 00:56:33,920 zoning administrator to say, "This is a this is good." That's 387 00:56:29,359 --> 00:56:37,280 I I have no comment on that. Oh man, 388 00:56:35,359 --> 00:56:42,720 » that is the catch 22, isn't it? >> Yeah, it is. It really 389 00:56:40,799 --> 00:56:47,119 » I mean that's crazy. >> So the builder, if this were to be 390 00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:49,280 denied, would the builder refund your money? 391 00:56:47,839 --> 00:56:52,880 » No, they were on the hook for getting the state stamp, which we did, and we 392 00:56:51,359 --> 00:56:58,240 were all in agreeance. I think you can see it in the packet that our general 393 00:56:55,520 --> 00:57:02,880 contractor's opinion and the builder's opinion is that we were in compliance 394 00:57:00,240 --> 00:57:07,680 with the ordinance. >> And did they read our zoning zoning 395 00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:10,799 ordinances? They read our zoning ordinance, but they used the 396 00:57:09,119 --> 00:57:14,400 two-dimensional view of it. that you just 397 00:57:12,559 --> 00:57:17,200 » um they measured from point to point from the outside 398 00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:22,400 » the two dimensional the two you just look from the northsoutheast west 399 00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:24,240 » instead of what it says there which is >> instead of looking at wall segments 400 00:57:23,839 --> 00:57:27,760 » huh >> instead of looking at wall segments they 401 00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:30,880 were looking at the whole side >> election so they chose to ignore that 402 00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:35,200 any >> that's not written no the any 403 00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:38,880 » no >> because technically ours has four side 404 00:57:37,599 --> 00:57:41,280 elevations >> well it says it's six 405 00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:44,559 » if you look prints. There's four in the architect 406 00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:46,720 diagrams. There's a north, south, east, and west. 407 00:57:46,160 --> 00:57:48,960 There are not. >> Well, yeah, that's again that's the two 408 00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:51,440 dimensional. >> That's a view. 409 00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:54,880 » Yeah, it's a view. Not not >> it's the side elevation based off of 410 00:57:53,119 --> 00:58:00,480 architect standards >> based on their their interpretation. 411 00:57:56,720 --> 00:58:04,480 » No, based the st the state stamped it. >> The state I'm sorry. Say that again. 412 00:58:02,319 --> 00:58:09,040 » Yeah, I think we're just we're kind of getting slightly confused. I think 413 00:58:06,079 --> 00:58:12,799 they're saying the same thing. Um I don't think that the state necess the 414 00:58:10,559 --> 00:58:15,680 state didn't approve your interpretation of the zoning ordinance. That's that's 415 00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:20,319 all. Yeah, >> they approved the inter the um structure 416 00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:24,799 of the building. >> So they they approved all the blueprints 417 00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:30,160 which let's say were 20 pages. >> Within those 20 pages are four pages or 418 00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:35,520 two pages because there's the north, south, east, and west. And they are 419 00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:38,720 actually called out as side elevation >> in the blueprint. 420 00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:47,440 Yeah, you guys just want to make sure that our your findings, whichever way 421 00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:51,920 you go, we're focusing on your specific interpretation of your zoning ordinance. 422 00:58:50,160 --> 00:58:55,200 » Certainly, you can take those things, you know, into account, but I just want 423 00:58:53,200 --> 00:59:01,079 to make sure we're staying >> focused, 424 00:58:57,520 --> 00:59:01,079 » right? And 425 00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:08,160 » and I I I know I know what you're saying because you know like some of this 426 00:59:06,559 --> 00:59:12,105 » um when I when I look at this um 427 00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:17,280 architectural it does front [clears throat] rear side side. Yes. 428 00:59:13,839 --> 00:59:22,079 Okay. And interior and and those are elevations. But when when our zoning 429 00:59:19,280 --> 00:59:27,040 ordinance, in my opinion, says any side, it's taking into consideration, no 430 00:59:24,319 --> 00:59:31,520 matter what shape your building is in, we're going to be measuring every side. 431 00:59:29,599 --> 00:59:36,160 Any side, whether it's octagon, hexagon, square, 432 00:59:34,559 --> 00:59:41,760 rectangle, L-shaped, whatever, 433 00:59:39,280 --> 00:59:46,160 » because we could conceivably have a an 8 foot wide. If it was L-shaped, it would 434 00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:52,640 be okay. >> An 8 foot wide. What? Like two eight 435 00:59:49,280 --> 00:59:56,720 foot wide sections like two long skinny 8. 436 00:59:53,599 --> 01:00:00,480 » That would not that would not join side, you know, in a T-shape. Anything in the 437 00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:05,760 T-shape would be okay. >> Well, no. Well, no, it's not because 438 01:00:03,599 --> 01:00:06,720 » say this this is what their house looks like. 439 01:00:06,160 --> 01:00:11,119 » Yeah. >> Okay. This side meets it. This side 440 01:00:09,040 --> 01:00:14,640 meets it. This side meets it. This side. This doesn't. And this doesn't. 441 01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:16,559 » So, it fails. >> Yeah. 442 01:00:14,960 --> 01:00:21,599 » In my opinion. >> Okay. Well, yeah. Okay. 443 01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:26,640 » But those 12 foot six sides could very easily be 8 foot. 444 01:00:24,400 --> 01:00:28,559 » Well, they they need to be 14 ft. >> They need to be 14 ft. 445 01:00:28,160 --> 01:00:31,040 » Yes. >> Yes. 446 01:00:29,280 --> 01:00:33,520 » But it would never pass with an eight foot sign. 447 01:00:32,160 --> 01:00:37,839 » No, >> it would. Well, according to them, it 448 01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:39,520 would. >> No. 449 01:00:38,240 --> 01:00:42,319 » No. No. >> If if I may. 450 01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:47,200 » According to them, it would. >> According to them, it would. 451 01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:50,319 » If I may. Uh we we would prefer if we don't get stuck on wall segments 452 01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:54,000 » because >> that's a tripping point here though. 453 01:00:51,920 --> 01:00:56,640 » But that's not in the ordinance. >> It is. 454 01:00:54,640 --> 01:01:02,240 » No, it doesn't say wall segment. It >> says the ZBA is interpreting section 410 455 01:01:01,520 --> 01:01:06,960 C. >> Yeah. 456 01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:11,760 » Which meth references >> Yeah. Yeah. I know. Minimum exterior 457 01:01:08,559 --> 01:01:15,359 width of any side elevation of 14 ft. So that's what we're right. 458 01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:18,960 » Yeah. But we have to that term not defined. So you guys today are just are 459 01:01:17,599 --> 01:01:23,359 interpreting that. Yeah. >> How you how it is in the zoning 460 01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:26,880 ordinance based off of the zoning. >> Okay. 461 01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:31,920 » What's been the history? What what has the zoning administration have how how 462 01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:37,599 has the zoning administrator interpreted it? Is it just the way you just you 463 01:01:34,559 --> 01:01:43,920 you've interpreted the past fail on this thing is based on the fact that you 464 01:01:39,280 --> 01:01:47,920 looked at any side meaning any piece or section no matter what the side view is. 465 01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:49,280 » Correct. >> Okay. 466 01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:52,240 » Yes. >> So for add infin item we've been doing 467 01:01:51,520 --> 01:01:58,960 it that way. >> Point B of of all the 468 01:01:56,720 --> 01:02:04,000 of all the the sides. >> Yeah. for 469 01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:11,200 » and that's been going when was do we have any idea when when this zoning when 470 01:02:06,480 --> 01:02:14,559 this inter interpretation has been >> in place [clears throat] 471 01:02:12,720 --> 01:02:16,319 » the zoning admin has been in her role since 2024 472 01:02:15,760 --> 01:02:21,040 » pardon me >> the zoning admin has been in her role 473 01:02:18,079 --> 01:02:25,520 since 2024 so I don't think anyone can speak to 2023 or earlier 474 01:02:23,839 --> 01:02:32,599 » but I could speak when I was the zone administrator before for three years 475 01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:32,599 prior to the year and a half I was gone 476 01:02:35,119 --> 01:02:44,400 » in this zoning this this version of the zoning ordinance was adopted in 186. 477 01:02:42,240 --> 01:02:49,200 » It's been in there since I invented this. 478 01:02:46,319 --> 01:02:52,640 » So this has been in place since ' 86. Is that what you're saying? 479 01:02:50,799 --> 01:02:56,079 » I don't know when it was fully I don't know. I don't know the 480 01:02:54,079 --> 01:02:58,160 » it's been it's been a long time >> since I've been 481 01:02:56,799 --> 01:03:03,200 » since since you've been since you've been the zoning minister. Yeah. 482 01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:08,000 » Which has been again how long? Say that again. 483 01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:11,640 » 2018 to 21 and then I was gone and then came back in 2014. 484 01:03:14,480 --> 01:03:22,400 » The zoning ordinance was adopted in 82 major revision in ' 07 and then there's 485 01:03:19,839 --> 01:03:26,160 been subsequent amendments. Um, but I don't know specifically with regard to 486 01:03:24,559 --> 01:03:29,160 section 410 C. >> Yeah. 487 01:03:32,480 --> 01:03:38,039 » Well, let's continue talking here. I 488 01:03:39,200 --> 01:03:49,599 » my personal uh my personal feelings on it is is these are the interpretations. 489 01:03:45,599 --> 01:03:52,720 I mean I I read this as any one wall. any any any one wall on this thing, 490 01:03:52,559 --> 01:03:56,960 » right? >> And I understand the view, but that's 491 01:03:54,559 --> 01:04:05,119 not the wall. That's not the >> I I' I'd have I'd be hardressed to vote 492 01:04:00,240 --> 01:04:10,160 against what the don't like the way it's written, but I'd be hardressed to vote 493 01:04:07,680 --> 01:04:15,280 against what the zoning press administrator has done to this point. 494 01:04:12,880 --> 01:04:19,520 And I don't know whether we we can go back to the planning commission and 495 01:04:17,200 --> 01:04:24,240 recommend but we we can't do anything about that at all. your decision solely 496 01:04:21,680 --> 01:04:29,039 today is interpreting as the appellet body and reviewing the decision and 497 01:04:26,720 --> 01:04:34,160 seeing yeah that's >> see I I personally have no issue with 498 01:04:31,039 --> 01:04:37,839 the way it's written because um you don't know what's what the shape of a 499 01:04:36,160 --> 01:04:44,240 structure is going to be and when it says any side elevation it's taking into 500 01:04:41,200 --> 01:04:48,799 consideration every type of building that would be coming into the township 501 01:04:46,160 --> 01:04:54,319 whether it be a stick built a modular or mobile whatever cover and so I I can 502 01:04:52,240 --> 01:05:00,400 understand why the terminology is as the terminology is. 503 01:04:56,480 --> 01:05:04,559 » Yeah, I think that term elevation is probably confusing in this set in this 504 01:05:02,720 --> 01:05:07,520 situation >> because elevation is an architectural 505 01:05:07,039 --> 01:05:10,960 term. >> Yes. 506 01:05:09,200 --> 01:05:14,640 » And if you look at wall segments, you could think of a chimney protruding from 507 01:05:12,640 --> 01:05:18,240 a house and you would have to count that if you're learning based off of a wall 508 01:05:16,240 --> 01:05:23,680 segment definition. You would also have to do an entrance door dwarmer if you go 509 01:05:21,280 --> 01:05:28,960 based off a wall segment definition. So that's why we're pushing hard about the 510 01:05:25,440 --> 01:05:32,960 side elevation in a complete term because there are houses there's one 511 01:05:30,799 --> 01:05:42,640 across the street with a sun room that has an indent that is less than 14 ft. 512 01:05:38,400 --> 01:05:47,440 » So this town already has those houses. >> Not to be argumentative. I mean, I I 513 01:05:45,760 --> 01:05:51,359 understand where you went with that, but you know what I mean? A door and a walls 514 01:05:49,520 --> 01:05:54,960 a door, you know what I mean? And and the chimney, I would never view a 515 01:05:53,680 --> 01:06:01,200 chimney as a wall. >> You have a sun room across the street. 516 01:05:58,559 --> 01:06:04,720 » The left hand side of it is less than 14 ft. 517 01:06:01,920 --> 01:06:07,280 » I If I may ask a question. Can we go all to page 18? 518 01:06:06,240 --> 01:06:11,119 » Can you say speak up? >> Page 18. 519 01:06:08,319 --> 01:06:16,920 » What? 18. Do we have page numbers? has page 520 01:06:13,280 --> 01:06:16,920 numbers at the bottom. 521 01:06:22,720 --> 01:06:31,760 » So using the three examples that are written here or printed here in the 522 01:06:27,440 --> 01:06:35,760 middle. So let's apply this concepts. Wait, let's let's make sure we're all 523 01:06:33,760 --> 01:06:41,520 we're >> I just wanna I just want to clarify just 524 01:06:37,760 --> 01:06:46,559 because ZBA for statutory purposes, you can only review what was provided at the 525 01:06:44,480 --> 01:06:49,119 time the decision was made. So I just I hadn't I just want to see I just wanted 526 01:06:48,400 --> 01:06:55,039 to see what >> I don't know what page I page. Can you 527 01:06:52,799 --> 01:06:59,119 get >> I have a page 18 but I but it's 528 01:06:57,680 --> 01:07:04,880 » this was their application >> minimum with requirements refer their 529 01:07:02,400 --> 01:07:12,520 CPA packet this was not in the building for that okay well if if their building 530 01:07:08,880 --> 01:07:12,520 um this 531 01:07:12,559 --> 01:07:18,720 » can we see can we see what >> can we see 532 01:07:16,640 --> 01:07:22,240 » that's not what I have for page 18 >> on 18 533 01:07:19,680 --> 01:07:22,960 » no I have let's Show that. Hold that up again. 534 01:07:22,720 --> 01:07:27,079 » Yeah, >> I think that's page 19. 535 01:07:29,039 --> 01:07:31,680 » Okay, >> there's three boxes. 536 01:07:31,359 --> 01:07:34,000 » Yep. >> Yep. No, I this 537 01:07:33,280 --> 01:07:36,880 » I saw it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 538 01:07:34,559 --> 01:07:40,640 » Yeah, that's page 19, not page 18 >> in our packet. Sorry, that's the 539 01:07:40,160 --> 01:07:42,880 » Do I >> You might have like two cover pages 540 01:07:42,160 --> 01:07:50,319 then. >> Do I have that? 541 01:07:44,960 --> 01:07:56,160 » Yes. Take no think you have it better. >> Keep keep ask 542 01:07:54,160 --> 01:08:02,160 for a second. Back up for a sec. I think you had it here. Here's 543 01:08:00,240 --> 01:08:06,000 » there. >> No, that's Yeah, that's the one. That's 544 01:08:04,000 --> 01:08:09,440 the one we have. That's the one they're looking at. That's the one they're 545 01:08:07,359 --> 01:08:12,720 referencing. It's this one. >> Thank you. 546 01:08:11,039 --> 01:08:16,239 » Page 19. >> Yeah. 547 01:08:14,079 --> 01:08:20,000 » Okay. Now that we all have that page, do you guys have that page that they're 548 01:08:17,920 --> 01:08:24,560 referencing? So, okay, what was your point again? I'm 549 01:08:21,679 --> 01:08:28,480 » This is the um portion of the our documentation that we provided that was 550 01:08:26,560 --> 01:08:33,040 provided by the builder, a letter >> by the builder. So using these three 551 01:08:30,400 --> 01:08:38,560 examples in here. So you're saying that on all of these examples, every 552 01:08:35,600 --> 01:08:45,440 individual wall, you guys would consider a side elevation in every example here, 553 01:08:42,880 --> 01:08:49,279 » regardless of if there's any front door entryways or 554 01:08:47,199 --> 01:08:57,679 » Well, you can have bumpouts. >> Well, I which there there's a definition 555 01:08:53,040 --> 01:09:03,520 for those and just like um a porch. I mean that is um I forgot what I what the 556 01:09:01,600 --> 01:09:11,799 technical term for something like that is um so that that is common and and 557 01:09:07,440 --> 01:09:11,799 it's acceptable but I think that 558 01:09:11,920 --> 01:09:19,920 it seems like the way I read it is like when you have your support walls that 559 01:09:18,000 --> 01:09:24,000 that that's where the measurement goes is based on what those support walls 560 01:09:22,000 --> 01:09:29,279 are. And so you could have like let's say a bay window that comes out that 561 01:09:25,679 --> 01:09:34,480 doesn't have a foundation underneath it. >> Well, yeah. So where Trevor's referring 562 01:09:31,600 --> 01:09:38,880 is probably like the third example. Um so you see how that shape of the house 563 01:09:37,040 --> 01:09:43,040 is not a perfect square, >> right? Yeah. 564 01:09:39,679 --> 01:09:47,440 » So your ordinance right now, I respect the bumpout phrase. That's not in the 565 01:09:45,359 --> 01:09:53,120 ordinance. So we all have to come to an agreement on what a side elevation is. 566 01:09:49,920 --> 01:09:58,480 And that third example would mean that it would not qualify even if it was 567 01:09:55,120 --> 01:10:03,640 3,000 ft of a house would not qualify because some of these size are less than 568 01:10:00,640 --> 01:10:03,640 14. 569 01:10:06,320 --> 01:10:12,400 » CDA is just is interpreting. You don't have to necessarily come to an an 570 01:10:10,960 --> 01:10:18,880 agreement. Just you guys are interpreting your ordinance. Um, okay. 571 01:10:17,520 --> 01:10:22,400 » Just for sake, >> I I 572 01:10:20,480 --> 01:10:25,280 » I would interpret that that >> the major part of the house has to be 14 573 01:10:24,719 --> 01:10:29,120 ft, >> right? 574 01:10:26,719 --> 01:10:31,679 » Major portion has to be at least one side. 575 01:10:30,000 --> 01:10:34,560 » Well, I outsides >> an outside side. 576 01:10:33,520 --> 01:10:39,760 » Exterior side. >> Exterior side has how many? all four or 577 01:10:37,760 --> 01:10:45,360 or >> I I think every every exterior site has 578 01:10:42,719 --> 01:10:51,600 to be. Now, granted, you can have like a bump out that is like an addition to a 579 01:10:49,120 --> 01:10:55,640 room that doesn't have a a foundation underneath that. That's 580 01:11:00,480 --> 01:11:09,920 and and and it's been customary within the township that we have at least 581 01:11:06,960 --> 01:11:14,880 minimum of 14 ft. >> Yeah, that was my point with with 582 01:11:12,480 --> 01:11:17,880 » Yes. I mean that that that's what we've had 583 01:11:27,120 --> 01:11:31,920 You guys have presented a real problem. >> I don't think it's a problem. 584 01:11:31,040 --> 01:11:35,679 » Okay. >> I don't looking at precedent in the 585 01:11:34,000 --> 01:11:42,159 state of Michigan based off my legal research. There are two standing 586 01:11:38,800 --> 01:11:45,199 examples. Uh one in Fremont and one in Welch where 587 01:11:43,440 --> 01:11:48,960 » they have the same sounding laws as we do. 588 01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:54,480 » They do not. But the judge ruled in the litigation that Michigan law must 589 01:11:51,760 --> 01:12:00,080 interpret in favor of property owners if there is any ambiguity. 590 01:11:58,480 --> 01:12:05,840 » Say that again. >> Michigan law. There are two cases where 591 01:12:04,159 --> 01:12:09,760 » we have do we have the cases that we can refer back to? 592 01:12:06,560 --> 01:12:14,000 » Yeah. Fremont Township versus McGuire or McGarvey 593 01:12:11,120 --> 01:12:20,239 » and Barowski versus Welch. I don't know necessarily if I agree with this the 594 01:12:16,800 --> 01:12:26,159 broad contention that it has to favor again here and and I'm just here to kind 595 01:12:22,719 --> 01:12:32,640 of funnel what today's decision about is your interpretation of 410C whether you 596 01:12:29,920 --> 01:12:35,760 agree or disagree that's your decision but when you're making that 597 01:12:33,840 --> 01:12:40,080 interpretation decision you're looking at your zoning ordinance we're not 598 01:12:38,239 --> 01:12:43,600 really looking at I mean you can use outside things like research to help you 599 01:12:42,000 --> 01:12:49,600 with prime your interpret retation when a term like this is undefined. Um, but I 600 01:12:47,199 --> 01:12:53,840 I wouldn't rely necessarily just on case law that you have to find. Again, what 601 01:12:51,600 --> 01:12:58,360 you're doing here today, whichever way you go, you're interpreting. 602 01:12:55,360 --> 01:12:58,360 » Yeah. 603 01:12:59,280 --> 01:13:10,400 » So, so I would interpret or only that there's two units here. They have to be 604 01:13:06,080 --> 01:13:14,040 14 wide. Not 12, not eight. They have to be 14 wide. 605 01:13:16,640 --> 01:13:24,719 I think that's I think that's the whole intent of the zoning ordinance is to get 606 01:13:21,679 --> 01:13:27,360 » 14 wides and not 12 wides or eight wides or right 607 01:13:25,840 --> 01:13:31,120 » shipping containers. >> Yeah, 608 01:13:27,600 --> 01:13:34,640 » they aren't they're ask question. >> Good. 609 01:13:31,520 --> 01:13:39,040 » So in that interpretation then would you agree or disagree that you're inserting 610 01:13:36,480 --> 01:13:42,880 the word wall segment into the minimum exterior with 611 01:13:40,239 --> 01:13:47,199 » wall segment? No, I No, I I think from the the just the interpretation of the 612 01:13:45,440 --> 01:13:52,480 language within our zoning ordinance, this is 613 01:13:48,560 --> 01:13:58,480 » at any elevation and that terminology means measuring each wall in a straight 614 01:13:55,600 --> 01:14:02,239 line. In my interpretation, based on um the dictionary definition since it's not 615 01:14:00,719 --> 01:14:05,440 defined in our zoning ordinance, >> based off of what the state stamped, 616 01:14:03,840 --> 01:14:11,280 they agree that there's only four side elevations for house. They would have 617 01:14:08,320 --> 01:14:13,840 required additional side elevations. again. Go ahead again. I'm sorry. I'm 618 01:14:12,800 --> 01:14:18,960 I'm an old guy. >> That's okay. I'm sorry. Um the state 619 01:14:16,400 --> 01:14:22,640 would have required additional drawings if they didn't see side elevation as 620 01:14:20,960 --> 01:14:28,000 four sides. >> Well, there's a difference probably 621 01:14:24,480 --> 01:14:33,040 between state law and Columbia or >> but not side elevation. 622 01:14:30,000 --> 01:14:38,239 » The ZVA has the sole authority to interpret its own ordinance at this 623 01:14:35,520 --> 01:14:42,719 stage. That's what you're doing. >> Yeah. 624 01:14:40,000 --> 01:14:49,199 So, correct me if I'm wrong here, but we've interpreted it as to being our 625 01:14:45,840 --> 01:14:53,199 inter our zoning laws to being a wall, meaning it has to be a contiguous 14. 626 01:14:51,600 --> 01:14:56,719 » Can you provide evidence of that? >> Pardon me. 627 01:14:53,760 --> 01:15:00,400 » Can you provide evidence of that? >> What do you mean evidence? 628 01:14:58,080 --> 01:15:08,560 » That is how it's been for interpreted since I think we said ' 89 82. 629 01:15:06,000 --> 01:15:12,400 all the um approvals or disapprovals has been based on that. 630 01:15:10,400 --> 01:15:16,239 » Can we see examples of that? >> Um that's not a threat still. 631 01:15:14,560 --> 01:15:19,239 » Yeah. Yeah. I >> Yeah. 632 01:15:19,760 --> 01:15:28,120 » That allows for inconsistency and you just have anecdotal evidence at 633 01:15:24,880 --> 01:15:28,120 this point. 634 01:15:28,159 --> 01:15:36,080 » I have a question. When somebody comes to you with a a 12 foot wide trailer, do 635 01:15:33,120 --> 01:15:39,600 you deny them? I would. Yes, >> you would. 636 01:15:37,440 --> 01:15:42,960 » And uh the building inspector would not allow it. 637 01:15:41,120 --> 01:15:46,239 » Well, the zoning goes first. So, it doesn't 638 01:15:44,560 --> 01:15:50,800 go to the building. >> But if the building inspector saw 639 01:15:48,080 --> 01:15:54,560 somebody pulling in a a 12 wide, you would 640 01:15:52,000 --> 01:15:58,560 » deny that like a stop work or something. 641 01:15:56,000 --> 01:16:01,679 » The zoning. It's a zoning ordinance requirement, not a building code requ. 642 01:16:01,360 --> 01:16:04,880 » Yeah. >> Just one quick procedure thing, too. 643 01:16:03,199 --> 01:16:08,480 It's okay to ask questions and kind of have but this is your time to you know 644 01:16:06,960 --> 01:16:13,040 you definitely can ask questions your time to make decisions but interruptions 645 01:16:10,560 --> 01:16:16,480 probably from either side randomly you can direct questions but 646 01:16:14,640 --> 01:16:20,239 » it's a small enough it's a small enough group that I'm allow I'm allowed 647 01:16:18,400 --> 01:16:24,199 » no I just wanted to yeah you can do that's your view but 648 01:16:25,040 --> 01:16:33,840 » then make a motion >> I make a motion that we deny uh the 649 01:16:30,239 --> 01:16:38,400 interpretation and uh we go with the interpretation by from our zoning 650 01:16:35,840 --> 01:16:41,840 administrator. >> Um, but okay, 651 01:16:39,760 --> 01:16:46,000 » just quick, sorry, I've been taking notes, but can we clarify some of your 652 01:16:44,640 --> 01:16:50,320 findings? You can do this in your motion, but just make sure so that I can 653 01:16:48,239 --> 01:16:52,640 get this written down. >> Okay, 654 01:16:51,600 --> 01:16:54,080 » the findings. >> Okay. Yeah, 655 01:16:53,520 --> 01:16:58,159 » go ahead. >> As to your as to your interpretation. 656 01:16:56,800 --> 01:17:03,120 » Okay. Um, >> I think I have some, but I just want to 657 01:17:00,640 --> 01:17:08,719 make sure The um 658 01:17:05,760 --> 01:17:16,239 application is asking the zoning board of appeals to interpret the definition 659 01:17:12,880 --> 01:17:26,880 or the um minimum exterior width at any site elevation of 14 ft. And some of the 660 01:17:20,320 --> 01:17:31,280 finding of facts is that the um term any means all sites because we don't know 661 01:17:29,520 --> 01:17:36,719 what the site what the structure of the building is going to be. So it takes 662 01:17:33,440 --> 01:17:42,640 into consideration all buildings that come before the zoning administrator. 663 01:17:39,520 --> 01:17:49,600 uh also that because it's not defined within our zoning ordinance that um we 664 01:17:46,159 --> 01:17:56,159 go to the definitions and American Heritage dictionary defines it as a line 665 01:17:53,280 --> 01:18:00,400 bound bounding a plain figure and a plain figure is a surface in which any 666 01:17:58,480 --> 01:18:06,480 two points are chosen a straight line joining them 667 01:18:01,600 --> 01:18:11,760 » sorry can you slow down [laughter] >> okay a plane is a surface surace in 668 01:18:09,360 --> 01:18:14,960 which any two points are chosen. >> I might have missed Did you say the line 669 01:18:13,440 --> 01:18:19,760 part already? >> Yeah, I said a side is a line bounding a 670 01:18:17,920 --> 01:18:23,640 plain figure and that's from the American Heritage Dictionary. 671 01:18:27,760 --> 01:18:36,960 » Okay. >> Uh a plane is a surface in which any two 672 01:18:33,520 --> 01:18:41,120 points are chosen. A straight line joining them lies wholly in that 673 01:18:39,520 --> 01:18:49,199 surface. >> Sorry. A plane is any two points are 674 01:18:44,320 --> 01:18:55,520 chosen. A straight line joining them lies wholly in that surface. 675 01:18:53,360 --> 01:18:58,520 And that's from Miriam Webster dictionary 676 01:19:04,080 --> 01:19:12,239 and that um there are many many um definitions of 677 01:19:10,239 --> 01:19:22,440 elevation and uh if you look at just side you're 678 01:19:16,400 --> 01:19:22,440 not taking into account rear and front. 679 01:19:24,960 --> 01:19:31,719 So therefore, the term any means all sides. 680 01:19:32,480 --> 01:19:46,640 » I think I have the rest that I'm putting to a resolution. Let me just 681 01:19:39,840 --> 01:19:50,880 » read and see if this um looks good. I have just some basic factual 682 01:19:49,280 --> 01:19:56,880 information. So I'm not going to read that out loud, but I will read what I 683 01:19:53,120 --> 01:20:04,960 have your notes as including. Um uh so whereas the ZBA finds that section 684 01:20:00,400 --> 01:20:11,840 14C is uh ambiguous because it does not expressly identify a measure method to 685 01:20:08,560 --> 01:20:18,000 be measured or define the term whereas a side is a line bounding a plane 686 01:20:16,320 --> 01:20:21,520 and that's from the American heritage dictionary 687 01:20:18,719 --> 01:20:29,280 » correct >> and whereas a plane is a surface in 688 01:20:25,920 --> 01:20:33,679 which any two points are chosen along a straight line. 689 01:20:31,840 --> 01:20:37,600 » It's I I have down here a straight line and I underline that joining them lies 690 01:20:36,239 --> 01:20:41,840 wholly in that surface. >> So a plane is a surface in which any two 691 01:20:39,920 --> 01:20:44,560 points >> are a straight line. 692 01:20:43,520 --> 01:20:47,920 » Yeah. >> Joining them lies wholly 693 01:20:46,719 --> 01:20:54,239 » in that surface >> in that surface. That's from structure. 694 01:20:51,760 --> 01:20:56,719 » Yep. and that there are many different types 695 01:20:55,760 --> 01:21:03,920 of elevation. >> Um, and then other notes that I had for 696 01:21:01,280 --> 01:21:08,960 your uh was I think we talked about this already the 697 01:21:05,440 --> 01:21:15,840 any side elevation versus simply um side that it applies to multiple side 698 01:21:11,840 --> 01:21:22,159 widths and not solely overall. Um and then also uh discussion on how it 699 01:21:20,080 --> 01:21:26,400 doesn't merely the section doesn't merely establish minimum floor 700 01:21:23,760 --> 01:21:29,600 requirement but also minimal dimensional standards um for dwellings within the 701 01:21:28,960 --> 01:21:35,920 township >> and and also um in architecture 702 01:21:33,679 --> 01:21:41,920 um they have types of elevations. They have front, side, rear and interior. So 703 01:21:38,960 --> 01:21:46,800 when when we have just the word side in our definition or in our zoning 704 01:21:44,880 --> 01:21:50,400 ordinance, we're not taking into >> you have side elevation in the zoning 705 01:21:48,719 --> 01:21:54,239 ordinance. Yeah. Yeah. Which >> and they're saying that there's four 706 01:21:51,840 --> 01:21:59,600 types of elevations in architecture, front, back. So therefore, if you're 707 01:21:56,800 --> 01:22:03,199 only looking at the sides, you're not taking into consideration the front and 708 01:22:01,440 --> 01:22:09,920 the back if you were having, let's say, a square house. 709 01:22:05,040 --> 01:22:16,320 » Okay. So therefore I yeah I think I have >> and and I I think that that's how come 710 01:22:12,960 --> 01:22:23,199 side doesn't necessarily mean looking at a side because it's not taking into all 711 01:22:19,520 --> 01:22:26,239 the various northeast south and west in architecture. 712 01:22:24,480 --> 01:22:31,840 » Okay. So since you're making the motion and those are your findings I'll let you 713 01:22:28,480 --> 01:22:36,239 guys go forward. If that does get approved, I will probably have you print 714 01:22:33,679 --> 01:22:38,400 this and then adopt and sign it. >> Okay. 715 01:22:36,880 --> 01:22:40,880 » But that's just depending on the vote. So, sorry. I think we have your motion. 716 01:22:40,480 --> 01:22:44,080 » Okay. >> Or finish your motion. I think I 717 01:22:42,400 --> 01:22:49,440 interrupted beforehand. Sorry. >> Um, so you you have that down. 718 01:22:46,320 --> 01:22:55,040 » I have it down in a resolution format. So, there's a couple like factual things 719 01:22:52,800 --> 01:23:00,480 in there that are just kind of um but then I put your findings specifically in 720 01:22:57,360 --> 01:23:05,120 there. And then depending on this motion and the vote, I will finish as 721 01:23:03,280 --> 01:23:09,040 necessary. >> Do you have the motions? 722 01:23:06,639 --> 01:23:13,840 » So you you want me to start from the >> you you can just um you don't 723 01:23:11,280 --> 01:23:20,080 necessarily have to go through all your findings. Say I make a motion to adopt 724 01:23:17,040 --> 01:23:26,159 the resolution as prepared by Okay. >> Yeah. Um I make a motion to adopt the 725 01:23:23,120 --> 01:23:30,639 resolution as prepared from our current discussion 726 01:23:27,120 --> 01:23:34,560 » and then sorry clarify what your um >> this will be denying. 727 01:23:32,400 --> 01:23:37,440 » Yeah clarify your that it's your interpretation and then what your 728 01:23:36,560 --> 01:23:41,440 outcome is. Sorry >> the interpretation is that that the 729 01:23:39,120 --> 01:23:44,880 zoning minister operated in the in the in the letter and spirit of the law. 730 01:23:43,679 --> 01:23:48,639 Okay >> that we just say 731 01:23:46,639 --> 01:23:54,480 » we agree with the zoning administrator or we disagree. We're what I'm going to 732 01:23:51,040 --> 01:23:58,000 have you guys do if the vote passes is you I'm we have capabilities to print 733 01:23:56,880 --> 01:24:01,520 here. Do we? >> I don't know. 734 01:23:58,639 --> 01:24:06,560 » Okay. I'm not sure if there's a printer or there wireless. 735 01:24:02,960 --> 01:24:11,120 » I I I'm ready to make a motion. I I make a motion that we accept the 736 01:24:09,760 --> 01:24:16,400 interpretation of our zoning administrator where uh 737 01:24:15,040 --> 01:24:24,960 » 41 >> that that the um the terminology um any 738 01:24:20,880 --> 01:24:28,000 site elevation means um looking at each side 739 01:24:25,679 --> 01:24:31,600 » you Yeah. And you Yeah. Okay. Good. That works for me. And then you'll need a 740 01:24:29,760 --> 01:24:35,520 second and you guys will have to vote on it and then hopefully we can 741 01:24:33,840 --> 01:24:38,800 » You want to second it or not? Sure. I'll second that. 742 01:24:36,159 --> 01:24:45,560 » Okay. We ready? Are we any other questions? Are we ready to vote on this? 743 01:24:41,840 --> 01:24:45,560 » We will get it written. 744 01:24:45,679 --> 01:24:48,080 » Yeah. >> Is there any further discussion? 745 01:24:47,360 --> 01:24:49,679 » Yeah. >> Any more discussion? 746 01:24:49,280 --> 01:24:54,080 » No. >> Okay. Any more input? I'll I'll give you 747 01:24:52,400 --> 01:24:59,480 guys another chance. >> Okay. 748 01:24:55,520 --> 01:24:59,480 » Been shown. So, I think 749 01:24:59,920 --> 01:25:09,520 » Okay. I'll go first. I'm voting for the resolution to as the uh what the zoning 750 01:25:07,199 --> 01:25:16,960 administrator has has denied the zoning permit based on the finding of facts 751 01:25:12,239 --> 01:25:21,679 that we've had here. I'm voting yes. That's a yes to in other words I'm 752 01:25:19,520 --> 01:25:24,960 agreeing with Tasha. >> Okay. 753 01:25:22,480 --> 01:25:30,760 » That's late. Yes. I agree with Tasha. Yeah. Yes. 754 01:25:27,760 --> 01:25:30,760 Yeah. 755 01:25:36,080 --> 01:25:43,080 Okay. So, I have a resolution that I will want us to fill out. 756 01:26:14,960 --> 01:26:23,159 Ben and Trevor. Um, >> hold on just a second everyone. Sorry. 757 01:26:19,679 --> 01:26:23,159 I'm just gonna 758 01:27:17,199 --> 01:27:21,000 We have checklist 759 01:27:22,800 --> 01:27:28,400 » once we've done that we public comments and then we meeting. 760 01:27:27,440 --> 01:27:33,800 » Yeah. Sorry. >> I don't want to let her finish. Let's 761 01:27:30,320 --> 01:27:33,800 just do it here. 762 01:27:44,320 --> 01:27:52,800 It isn't, but we could email it and then Ken could print it. The printer. Oh, is 763 01:27:50,239 --> 01:27:58,105 he here? Okay, that would be great actually instead of me handbreing this. 764 01:27:56,085 --> 01:27:58,105 [clears throat] 765 01:27:58,400 --> 01:28:07,320 Sorry, I just got to keep the meeting open for you guys to 766 01:28:03,679 --> 01:28:07,320 fill this out. 767 01:28:07,440 --> 01:28:16,679 » I'm emailing it. Can you remind me his supervisor at Columbia? I think TWWP. 768 01:28:17,520 --> 01:28:20,520 Okay. 769 01:28:21,520 --> 01:28:27,239 Okay. I just emailed it to them. 770 01:28:52,800 --> 01:28:56,400 and then Dave, are you the secretary? 771 01:28:57,600 --> 01:29:07,560 You'll fill out the um resolution. >> I can help you. There's blanks. It's 772 01:29:03,520 --> 01:29:07,560 very You just have to 773 01:29:07,600 --> 01:29:11,719 » sign it. Put your name 774 01:29:11,760 --> 01:29:14,760 Record. 775 01:30:17,120 --> 01:30:21,280 Thank you. Do you have a pen up there, Dave? 776 01:30:19,120 --> 01:30:27,400 » Y >> just in case. 777 01:30:24,159 --> 01:30:27,400 » Thank you. 778 01:30:29,360 --> 01:30:42,239 So you'll just record the names of who's present here today of the board members. 779 01:30:36,800 --> 01:30:44,880 Um, and then it was offered by >> and supported by I don't remember who 780 01:30:44,400 --> 01:30:47,280 gave >> Dave 781 01:30:45,440 --> 01:30:52,080 » Dave gave the second >> and then I typed it out there and then 782 01:30:50,159 --> 01:30:56,400 you'll just do how many yays, how many nays, your name. 783 01:30:54,800 --> 01:30:59,520 » You'll have to give the resolution a number. This is your first meeting of 784 01:30:57,920 --> 01:31:03,679 the year, so I guess we can be number one. 785 01:31:00,560 --> 01:31:07,080 » Um, and then last page, you sign and type your name. 786 01:31:12,560 --> 01:31:17,600 have questions, let me know. >> While he's doing that, can we 787 01:31:15,520 --> 01:31:21,360 » Yeah, you can. >> This is again, it's open to the public 788 01:31:19,760 --> 01:31:24,400 here to to comment. I don't know whether you guys want to say anything, but but I 789 01:31:23,040 --> 01:31:30,639 want to say something before you leave. Okay. I mean, 790 01:31:27,760 --> 01:31:38,679 » um, can I spell your last name? K 791 01:31:33,679 --> 01:31:38,679 O V is in Victor. A C H 792 01:31:42,880 --> 01:31:55,600 » last Leroy is my given name. Leroy L E R O Y. Don't laugh. 793 01:31:50,880 --> 01:31:58,600 » Last name is Abernathy. A B E R N A T H Y. 794 01:31:58,880 --> 01:32:04,159 » Okay. Thank you. You can continue. >> Huh? 795 01:32:02,400 --> 01:32:09,520 » You can continue. What's >> Okay, Ben and Trevor here. This is what 796 01:32:07,840 --> 01:32:15,199 I'd like to say to you guys. I'm sorry it didn't go the I'm not 797 01:32:13,679 --> 01:32:21,280 You didn't get the outcome that you wanted. Okay. But we definitely need 798 01:32:18,960 --> 01:32:25,679 folks like you. When I say you, I'm talking about people who are willing to 799 01:32:23,360 --> 01:32:30,880 step up and do what they think is the right thing in the township. And I truly 800 01:32:28,800 --> 01:32:34,639 hope you you find the right thing that passes the zoning thing and you're 801 01:32:32,480 --> 01:32:39,040 living in the community at some point in time because it's important 802 01:32:36,560 --> 01:32:43,440 » for for younger folks to step up here other than us old people and and it's 803 01:32:41,360 --> 01:32:47,600 really important for you to be involved in the community and there's all kinds 804 01:32:45,760 --> 01:32:52,804 of places that you can get involved in this community and you can get on a 805 01:32:50,000 --> 01:32:54,800 planning commission, right? [laughter] 806 01:32:53,360 --> 01:32:59,520 I've been there, done that. Don't want to do it again. Okay? But there are 807 01:32:57,600 --> 01:33:05,520 opportunities. There are opportunities to be involved and and and I truly hope 808 01:33:02,080 --> 01:33:10,239 you do. You do do that. Do do that. >> That's Lee Abernathy talking for this 809 01:33:08,080 --> 01:33:13,840 township. Been living there for 20 years now. 20 plus years. 810 01:33:12,400 --> 01:33:15,760 » Believe it or not, this is the longest place I've ever lived in my life. 811 01:33:15,280 --> 01:33:19,120 » Oh, really? >> This place right now is the longest 812 01:33:17,280 --> 01:33:24,719 place I've ever lived in my life. >> So, um, do you have any Do you guys have 813 01:33:22,400 --> 01:33:29,199 any comments? Yeah, I I'm I'm really sorry that you had to go through the 814 01:33:26,880 --> 01:33:35,120 state and pay money there and then get certified. That just blows in my mind, 815 01:33:32,400 --> 01:33:39,280 you know, that you know, you >> taken all these steps down the road and 816 01:33:36,960 --> 01:33:43,600 then, you know, come to this um decision. 817 01:33:41,600 --> 01:33:48,719 » Yeah. I'm sorry. Oh, yes. >> Yeah. So, unfortunate. 818 01:33:45,920 --> 01:33:53,440 » Go it'll go with the minutes. and then whatever other business you guys can 819 01:33:50,719 --> 01:33:56,560 finish out your agenda. I don't know anything else. 820 01:33:54,320 --> 01:33:58,480 » No, I think they're in public comment. >> Okay, 821 01:33:56,880 --> 01:34:02,235 » just we're doing public comments. If you guys want to say anything, 822 01:33:59,840 --> 01:34:05,360 » you want to call us names, feel free. [laughter] 823 01:34:04,080 --> 01:34:10,320 » Yeah, obviously we want to thank everyone for being here. 824 01:34:07,920 --> 01:34:14,880 » Did not expect any of this to happen. Um, so you know, like I said, we've said 825 01:34:13,520 --> 01:34:18,480 from the beginning, we've been working with a team of people that have all been 826 01:34:16,639 --> 01:34:20,960 interpreting this this way. And so it's unfortunate 827 01:34:19,440 --> 01:34:28,560 » that it's not being interpreted this way. We still do disagree. 828 01:34:23,679 --> 01:34:34,400 » Um, there might be more of us with this. Okay. I'm, you know, I'm not going to 829 01:34:30,320 --> 01:34:39,280 make any promises or um but yeah, I mean, we 830 01:34:36,080 --> 01:34:43,040 strongly feel like we presented a a good case. And I would say if there's any 831 01:34:40,880 --> 01:34:49,520 room for there to be >> um ambiguity in this, then, you know, I 832 01:34:47,199 --> 01:34:53,280 would hope that it would move in the direction of having someone build a a 833 01:34:52,080 --> 01:34:57,360 home. >> So, all I would say, 834 01:34:55,520 --> 01:35:02,159 » oh, we thank you. We really do. Thank you. Okay. We do appreciate. Do you guys 835 01:35:00,639 --> 01:35:05,199 have any other business that we need to take? Can you guys think of anything? 836 01:35:04,080 --> 01:35:08,560 » No. >> Is there anything else you can think of, 837 01:35:06,480 --> 01:35:13,920 Tasha? We need to do >> and should I get a motion to adjourn the 838 01:35:10,719 --> 01:35:17,679 meeting at 8:09? >> I [laughter] 839 01:35:15,520 --> 01:35:23,510 » Okay, I'll make the motion. She said Dave, you have you vote on that? All 840 01:35:19,760 --> 01:35:23,510 right. I [laughter] 841 01:35:28,000 --> 01:35:32,960 » motion refers to >> Yeah, we Well, I don't know if I 842 01:35:31,440 --> 01:35:38,120 necessarily put it in the minutes, but it should. You should keep it keep it 843 01:35:34,560 --> 01:35:38,120 with it, but it doesn't 844 01:35:41,600 --> 01:35:51,280 » You can keep it in there. >> However, normally keep those things on 845 01:35:48,080 --> 01:35:56,000 records. do that. We've never done >> Okay, 846 01:35:53,440 --> 01:36:00,639 » we do the best of finding that's translating. 847 01:35:58,159 --> 01:36:06,600 » Yeah, this is basically the same thing. It's just a different 848 01:36:02,320 --> 01:36:06,600 » I'll go ahead and say something to 849 01:36:11,840 --> 01:36:15,000 » my eyes. 850 01:36:16,880 --> 01:36:23,440 Well, it was nice to meet you all. >> Yeah, no problem. Thank you. 851 01:36:21,840 --> 01:36:27,400 » I really appreciate it. >> No problem at all. 852 01:36:30,159 --> 01:36:33,480 » Oh my god. 853 01:36:36,159 --> 01:36:39,960 » Chicago. >> I don't know. 854 01:36:40,560 --> 01:36:45,760 » I'll go tell Ken that we're done so we can talk. 855 01:36:43,120 --> 01:36:52,040 » Is she still in there or what? Yeah, it goes there. 856 01:36:47,840 --> 01:36:52,040 I think Rof will change them. 857 01:37:05,440 --> 01:37:08,440 He's 858 01:37:19,679 --> 01:37:22,679 ready. 859 01:37:48,719 --> 01:37:51,719 Yeah. 860 01:37:59,440 --> 01:38:02,600 Oh