1 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:37,919 Good morning, everyone. 2 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:39,120 » Good morning. How are you doing? 3 00:07:37,919 --> 00:07:39,960 » How are you, Donna? 4 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:42,360 » I'm thank you. 5 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:42,360 » Amber. 6 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:49,680 All right, hope everyone is well. We'll 7 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:51,760 get on the record at this time in the 8 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,840 state of Texas versus Jeffrey Vincent 9 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:56,800 Nicholas. 10 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:56,800 It's cause number DCM-21-02100. 11 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:01,320 Um 12 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:03,200 This is a case pending in Concho County, 13 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:05,080 Texas, but it's been transferred to Tom 14 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,600 Green County for trial. 15 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:08,040 Um 16 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,560 Can I hear announcements from those 17 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:11,200 present, please? 18 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:13,560 » Your honor, the state's present and 19 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:17,520 ready. John Best for the state. Nelson 20 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:17,520 Martinez is also here for the state. 21 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:21,560 » And judge, we have Ashley Puchervinsky 22 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:23,320 and Steven Gobel for the defense, but we 23 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:24,840 are still presently waiting on Mr. 24 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:27,160 Nicholas to be brought to the room with 25 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:28,480 us. 26 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,480 » Okay. 27 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:32,360 Did you make arrangements for that? 28 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:34,080 » Yes, the sheriff is aware of it and we 29 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:35,200 do have a bailiff here. We're just 30 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:39,120 waiting for his appearance. 31 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:40,080 » Please break, give him a call, please. 32 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:41,200 Okay? 33 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:44,840 » Yes, judge. 34 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:44,840 » We'll just stand by while he gets on. 35 00:09:57,400 --> 00:09:59,600 » Okay. 36 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:01,960 I was thinking 37 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:05,200 » And Judge, just so you know, he is en 38 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:06,400 route is what we're being told. 39 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:08,640 » Okay. 40 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:10,400 Uh did they say how long? 41 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:11,960 » No, Judge, we're not sure. But the jail 42 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:13,360 isn't too far away. So it'll hopefully 43 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:15,120 shouldn't be too much longer. 44 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:17,560 » All right. 45 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:17,560 Thank you. 46 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:56,120 » Judge, Mr. Nicholas is present now. 47 00:23:54,360 --> 00:23:57,800 » All right. 48 00:23:56,120 --> 00:24:00,560 » He's not on camera, but he is sitting 49 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:03,680 right next to a Mr. Golbol. 50 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:04,840 » Very well. All right. 51 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,480 We'll go ahead and uh get back on the 52 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:10,440 record. We've already called a case and 53 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:12,880 uh I think the state the state made uh 54 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:15,000 their announcement of their presence and 55 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:16,320 ready to present the state. Uh defense 56 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:20,480 counsel 57 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:22,840 uh I believe um just mentioned that Mr. 58 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:25,640 uh Nicholas has not been yet appeared. 59 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:28,880 Uh you want to complete the 60 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,880 the announcements, please. 61 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:33,560 » Thank you, Judge. Ashley Bukchin and 62 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:35,560 Steven Steven Golbol with Mr. Nicholas. 63 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:38,160 And we are ready to proceed. 64 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:41,320 » All right. We're here today based on uh 65 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:43,840 subpoenas for uh Vernon records. 66 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:45,840 Um and so uh we have certain 67 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:48,520 representatives here. 68 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,800 Um 69 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:52,280 The the [clears throat] court issued an 70 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:54,320 order for show cause to it to ask why 71 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:56,280 the records have not been produced in 72 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:58,200 accordance with the subpoena. 73 00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:00,880 And so uh that's what we're here for 74 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:00,880 this morning. 75 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,520 Is that the way you see it, Mr. Best? 76 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,800 Mr. 77 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,720 Mr. Gobel? 78 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:09,040 » Yes, Your Honor. Um 79 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,720 um 80 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:13,080 the defense filed the the motion for 81 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:14,360 show cause, and so, um since it's our 82 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,240 motion, 83 00:25:14,360 --> 00:25:17,880 I'm certainly willing to defer to them. 84 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:20,200 What I wanted to let the court know, and 85 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:22,640 what I let the court know, and defense 86 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:25,040 counsel know via email yesterday, 87 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:27,240 we've got uh 88 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:29,160 uh Kathleen Kathleen Lozano, who's the 89 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,520 custodian of records for Vernon, here 90 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:34,120 today. 91 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:34,880 Um and I see her on the screen. We have 92 00:25:34,120 --> 00:25:37,600 uh 93 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,800 Michael Moore, who is an attorney with 94 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:41,760 the Health and Human Services 95 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:45,680 Commission, uh who has been helping Ms. 96 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:48,840 Lozano with the numerous 97 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:51,720 uh subpoenas duces tecum that have been 98 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:53,000 uh issued by the defense in this case. 99 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:56,040 And 100 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:58,360 uh John Gray, who is an attorney with 101 00:25:56,040 --> 00:26:01,960 the Attorney General's Office, who I 102 00:25:58,360 --> 00:26:04,520 believe is the HHSC representative from 103 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:05,840 the Attorney General's Office, um here 104 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:09,760 to they're all here to answer any 105 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:12,560 questions that Mr. Gobel or Ms. uh 106 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:14,800 uh Pochobinsky have. 107 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:16,640 Um 108 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:19,560 there may be some other I see some other 109 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:22,560 people on the on the on the Zoom meeting 110 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:25,200 uh that may be here from Vernon or that 111 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:27,400 received subpoenas and 112 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,840 um I guess uh 113 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:31,000 Mr. Moore can probably help us with 114 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:32,760 that, or possibly Ms. Lozano with with 115 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,920 who we have here. 116 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,560 But, that's kind of where we're at right 117 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,840 now, Judge. 118 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:40,280 » All right. 119 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:42,240 Uh Mr. Moore, uh or uh Mr. Gray, if you 120 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:45,480 want to fill in 121 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:46,880 the others that are that are here today. 122 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,560 » John Gray, Assistant Attorney General 123 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:50,840 for Texas Human Health and Human 124 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:54,080 Services Commission. Um I'll go ahead 125 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:55,400 and let um Mr. Moore or Ms. Lozano and 126 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,800 the court on who was here and available 127 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,200 today. 128 00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:00,360 » Okay. 129 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:03,040 » Uh, your honor, good morning. Uh, Katie 130 00:27:00,360 --> 00:27:06,320 Gallagher, uh, also an attorney with 131 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:08,040 HHSC is present. 132 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:11,120 But I believe that's that's the only 133 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:12,320 other person that I can speak for. 134 00:27:11,120 --> 00:27:14,560 » All right. 135 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:16,120 » Judge, if I may, I believe that Mr. Best 136 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:18,040 is speaking about Ms. White and Mr. 137 00:27:16,120 --> 00:27:19,520 Rivera. They are part of Mr. Nicholas' 138 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,000 defense team. They're just located in 139 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:21,920 our lobby office, so they're appearing 140 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,880 on the Zoom link. 141 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,520 » Thank you. Okay. All right. Now we've 142 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:28,480 identified anybody. 143 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:30,560 Uh, Ms. Pukse Viskie, I guess you you 144 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:32,920 filed a motion for show cause. Do you 145 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:34,440 want to present the witnesses? You want 146 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,120 to present witnesses. Do you want them 147 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,960 placed under the rule? How do you wish 148 00:27:36,120 --> 00:27:39,800 to proceed? 149 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:42,360 » Yes, I would ask that they be placed on 150 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:43,960 the rule. I do believe that the Attorney 151 00:27:42,360 --> 00:27:45,400 General's office would be asking that 152 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,640 this matter be continued. I don't know 153 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:51,040 if the court would rather hear from them 154 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,040 first at this point. 155 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:56,480 » Okay. Uh, Mr. Gray? 156 00:27:54,120 --> 00:27:58,720 » Um, yes, your honor. Um, 157 00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:02,320 just uh, initially, I'd like to say that 158 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:05,600 HHSC has received between approximately 159 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:07,320 um, 50 subpoenas from the DA's office 160 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:09,360 and between 50 and 70 from defense 161 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:11,600 counsel. Um, over the course of the 162 00:28:09,360 --> 00:28:13,000 production, they produced around 12,000 163 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,520 documents. 164 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,640 Uh, between uh, last night and this 165 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:19,240 morning, they've produced over 2,700 166 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:20,880 more and I've been informed from HHSC 167 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:24,760 that they have about 3,000 more to 168 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:26,520 produce. Um, they would like to let the 169 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:29,280 defense counsel and the DA's office 170 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:30,520 allow them until September 14th, Monday 171 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,520 to produce the remainder of the 172 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,920 documents on a rolling basis throughout 173 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:36,400 the next week from the 7th through the 174 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:38,720 14th. We believe can come into 175 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:40,320 compliance if that is allowed and we 176 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:42,280 don't expect any more issues and if 177 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,960 there are, they defense counsel and the 178 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:46,200 DA can raise them to us and we will 179 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:49,560 definitely work side by side to get the 180 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:51,960 production that they've requested. 181 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:54,360 » Okay. 182 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:55,920 Is Ms. Sobinsky are you amenable to that 183 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:58,120 offer? 184 00:28:55,920 --> 00:29:00,680 » Judge, could I just ask a clarifying 185 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:02,880 question? Um Mr. Gray, do you know how 186 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:04,400 much has been produced to both the 187 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:07,200 defense and the state if it should have 188 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:09,360 been the same at this point in time cuz 189 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:11,640 the documents I have currently don't 190 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:13,880 total 12,000. 191 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,640 » Um I believe that is in total. I know 192 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,080 some of the subpoenas are overlapping, 193 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:19,320 so some of the documents will be the 194 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:22,520 same, but I would have to defer to Mr. 195 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:24,040 Moore and Ms. Lozano regarding the exact 196 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:27,120 production that has been done for both 197 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:28,960 defense counsel and for the DA's office. 198 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:31,040 » Sure, I I can answer that. The The 199 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:32,720 numbers that I have from our records 200 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,840 management group 201 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:38,360 prior to 202 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:42,880 prior to yesterday, September 3rd, 203 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:45,880 we had produced in total 12,331 204 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:47,960 pages of documents, and our breakdown of 205 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:50,160 that number was 206 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:54,160 6,139 207 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:57,120 to the DA's office and 6,192 208 00:29:54,160 --> 00:30:00,840 to the public defender's office. 209 00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:03,880 Um as Mr. Gray indicated, we produced an 210 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:07,200 additional 2,718 211 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:08,840 pages of documents late last night to 212 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:11,440 the public defender's office, so that 213 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:15,000 would be added to the 6192, 214 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:18,560 bringing us to just shy of about 9,000 215 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,560 to the public defender's office. 216 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,880 » Comments about that? 217 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,560 » No, Judge. I wouldn't have any comments 218 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,480 for the court about that. 219 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:33,880 » All right. What about the offer to 220 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:35,080 September 14th? 221 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:38,200 » That would be fine, Judge, if that's 222 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,200 what the court wants to do. 223 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,360 » Well, in view of the the amount of 224 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:43,920 voluminous records, I would think that 225 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:45,280 would be a reasonable offer. 226 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:47,440 Okay. There you I I would remind 227 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:49,560 everyone this this case is set for for 228 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:51,040 competency trial on 229 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:53,640 October 230 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:55,600 23rd with jury selection starting 231 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,840 October 26th. 232 00:30:55,600 --> 00:31:00,800 Which is is is going to be is going to 233 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:03,320 happen that time regardless 234 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:04,760 of uh 235 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:07,160 what is produced or what not is 236 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,920 produced. I'll take it up, but you know, 237 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,560 what 238 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,520 I'm not going to 239 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:13,560 I'm not going to delay this anymore. 240 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:16,000 It's been years. 241 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,560 And so we're going to get this done. 242 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,600 Uh 243 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,600 so uh 244 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:24,960 I'll I'll I'll approve 245 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:27,040 the suggestion that we um 246 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:29,360 allow an additional amount of time to 247 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:32,040 September 14th to complete the 248 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,040 discovery. 249 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,200 And um 250 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,840 right now is there anything else to take 251 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:41,280 up? Do we do you need to take any 252 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:43,160 testimony from anyone, Mr. Best, Mr. 253 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:45,360 Bukowski? 254 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,960 » Judge, I'll go ahead, Ashley. 255 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:49,680 » Oh, you can go ahead, Mr. Best. 256 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:53,120 » I was going to say um 257 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:55,400 couple of thoughts, Judge. What um 258 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:57,080 one of the reasons 259 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:59,240 why 260 00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:02,960 HHSC is having to produce so many 261 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:04,760 documents is that 262 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:07,520 the state wanted to make sure that they 263 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:10,080 were receiving the same records 264 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:11,080 that the defense was 265 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,720 um 266 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,920 so that we were all on the same page as 267 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:16,000 far as what we had and we could 268 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:19,080 reference the same documents. 269 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:20,720 Um so we we issued we mirrored the 270 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,400 defense subpoenas to make sure we were 271 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,520 getting everything. 272 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,840 Um 273 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:28,560 we did not do that with the last round 274 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:31,440 of subpoenas that the defense 275 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:34,920 issued simply 276 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:36,600 uh to avoid more confusion about what 277 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:38,840 records are being produced and what 278 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:40,480 records are not being produced. 279 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:44,360 Um 280 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:45,560 So, yesterday we filed a motion 281 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:49,800 to 282 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:52,800 um ask the court to order that Vernon 283 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:55,160 provide us with whatever records they're 284 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:57,160 producing to the defense in response to 285 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:59,840 these subpoenas duces tecum that are 286 00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:01,760 being that have been issued. 287 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:04,000 Um 288 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:06,000 so that we all have the same records and 289 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,440 we don't just have to continue 290 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,080 throwing out subpoenas and making 291 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,720 everybody crazy. 292 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:14,120 Um 293 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:15,320 so we would ask the court to grant that. 294 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,880 Um 295 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:18,120 you know, we we thought about asking the 296 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,400 defense 297 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:21,080 and the defense has been 298 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:22,880 uh 299 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:25,360 forthcoming with records. I think Mr. 300 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:28,440 Gobel sent me an email with 2010 pages 301 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:30,440 of records they had received. Um we just 302 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:32,800 want to make sure that and I didn't want 303 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:35,440 to put any burden on defense counsel and 304 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,640 since HHSC is producing these documents 305 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,520 to them, we didn't think it would be a 306 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:40,160 burden on them to produce them to us at 307 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:41,280 the same time. 308 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:42,880 Um 309 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:44,920 so we would ask that the court grant 310 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:46,200 that motion. 311 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,520 Um 312 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,200 so that 313 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,840 so that we receive the same records and 314 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:53,120 and we would 315 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:55,440 I don't think we specified this in our 316 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:57,080 motion, but we would ask that those be 317 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,400 provided with a business record 318 00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:59,760 affidavit. 319 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:02,320 Um 320 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:04,040 I think that's what they've been doing 321 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,400 with the documents produced to the 322 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:08,120 defense. 323 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:10,840 Um but that way if we find records or 324 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:14,399 the defense finds records that 325 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:16,840 they want to may want to offer at trial, 326 00:34:14,399 --> 00:34:18,760 um we can get those records filed with 327 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:21,240 the court and 328 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:24,440 and use them if that makes sense. 329 00:34:21,240 --> 00:34:26,560 » Okay, I did review your motion and uh 330 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:29,600 was going to take it up this morning. 331 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:31,879 Uh so unless I'm inclined to grant that 332 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:33,960 unless there's reason stated I should 333 00:34:31,879 --> 00:34:37,240 not. And if there is reason I should 334 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:39,159 not, then please uh so state, defense. 335 00:34:37,240 --> 00:34:41,040 » And Judge, we would have no objection to 336 00:34:39,159 --> 00:34:42,800 the court granting it. Our only request 337 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:44,320 would it be that it would be reciprocal. 338 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:47,159 So, if the state happened to file a new 339 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:49,800 subpoena with HHSC, we would in kind get 340 00:34:47,159 --> 00:34:49,800 the same. 341 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:54,000 » Okay. Well, that's what they're trying 342 00:34:51,399 --> 00:34:55,120 to avoid, having to send out subpoenas. 343 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:56,639 » Correct. But, if they 344 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:59,520 » Additional subpoenas. You're saying if 345 00:34:56,639 --> 00:35:00,560 they if they send out one. 346 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,880 » Correct, Judge. 347 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:04,040 » All right. Yeah. All right. 348 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:06,440 Uh 349 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:09,680 let's see. Mr. Moore, any any problem 350 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:10,840 with that? Or Mr. Gray? 351 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,680 Did you understand what the state is 352 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,920 trying to do here? 353 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,720 » Uh yes, Your Honor. I understand what 354 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:17,320 they're trying to do. I'll defer to Mr. 355 00:35:15,720 --> 00:35:18,920 Moore. That is typical in a lot of the 356 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,560 cases that I work that we do share 357 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,360 documents that have already been 358 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:22,200 produced. 359 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:23,760 » Okay, Mr. Moore. 360 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:24,480 » Mr. Moore speak to it. 361 00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:26,800 » Okay. 362 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:29,480 » Yeah yes, Your Honor. Conceptually, we 363 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:31,600 we have no problem sharing 364 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:33,240 everything with everybody. I would I 365 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:35,800 would maybe just ask for the parties' 366 00:35:33,240 --> 00:35:38,080 grace, given that we've had overlapping 367 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:40,160 subpoenas. Some documents have gone out 368 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:42,040 to both parties. Other documents have 369 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,760 just gone to one. We're happy to work 370 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,480 with the parties to get get it sorted 371 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:47,280 out, so that everybody 372 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,440 gets what every other party has 373 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:49,680 received. 374 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:50,920 » Okay. 375 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:53,320 All right. Then, I will grant the 376 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:56,160 motion. I'll I'll allow the amendment to 377 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:59,280 the motion that uh the business record 378 00:35:56,160 --> 00:36:02,360 affidavit be be a the company uh the 379 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:03,920 records produced. Uh that would that 380 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,560 would make things a lot easier during 381 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:07,840 the during the trial. 382 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:11,600 Um but, anyway, I'll get it signed up 383 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:13,600 and sent uh and filed with Amber. 384 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,400 » Uh Your Honor, can I can I ask one 385 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:17,880 clarifying question, please? Are are the 386 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:20,400 parties Are the parties okay with an 387 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:23,800 unsworn declaration to serve as the 388 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,800 business records affidavit? 389 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:30,680 » I'm not necessarily. Um we we need 390 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:34,040 something that would that would qualify 391 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:35,080 as a business record affidavit under the 392 00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:37,200 uh 393 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,520 rules of evidence so that 394 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:41,080 and the code of criminal procedure so 395 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:43,040 that we can get those records filed and 396 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:44,520 use them without calling 397 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:45,680 uh 398 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,480 you know, we may have to call witness 399 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,160 anyway to support those records, but we 400 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:51,040 don't want them to be 401 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:52,720 self-authenticating. 402 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,520 If that makes sense. 403 00:36:52,720 --> 00:36:56,800 » Yeah. 404 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:59,720 And then that's what I was going to say. 405 00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:01,000 Uh for efficiency wise, I mean, I don't 406 00:36:59,720 --> 00:37:02,080 want to hear a bunch of objections 407 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,680 during the trial that's not 408 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:06,400 authenticated properly, this that and 409 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:08,400 the other. So, it's got to comply with 410 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:11,880 the Texas rules of evidence as far as 411 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:12,600 admissibility of records like that. So, 412 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:14,240 uh 413 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:16,520 I'm not sure that 414 00:37:14,240 --> 00:37:18,520 the unsworn one would qualify for that. 415 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:20,320 I'm not I'm not here I don't have my 416 00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:22,840 rules of evidence book right now before 417 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:24,920 me nor the particular rule, but uh 418 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:26,520 uh if anyone who can speak to that, let 419 00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:28,360 me know whether that would qualify as an 420 00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:30,400 admissibility. 421 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:32,360 Uh not that I would accept it, but I'd 422 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,880 use do my own research and make my own 423 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:34,640 ruling, but 424 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:38,680 um 425 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:38,680 I'm not sure an unsworn one would work. 426 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:43,960 » And I I tend to agree with that, Judge. 427 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,280 I 428 00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:47,080 uh 429 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:48,480 And and we can talk about that with Mr. 430 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:49,400 Moore a little bit if we you know, 431 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:51,120 later. 432 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,920 » And Mr. Moore, what what would be the 433 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:55,520 the problem with getting it 434 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:56,880 sworn to the affidavit? 435 00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,360 » Well, I I think the issue, Your Honor, 436 00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:00,560 is that we've we've [clears throat] 437 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:02,640 already produced a significant number of 438 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:05,160 documents in this case, some of which 439 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:08,720 were accompanied by unsworn 440 00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:11,160 declarations and so um 441 00:38:08,720 --> 00:38:13,400 we can we can get sworn statements, but 442 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:14,440 we may have to go back and 443 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:16,280 um 444 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:19,560 account for some of the documents that 445 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,560 have already been produced. 446 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:23,280 » Okay. 447 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:25,000 Well, here here to fore we'll get 448 00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:28,520 probably need them sworn to so that they 449 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:28,520 comply with the rules of evidence. 450 00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:32,320 » Okay. Thank you, Your Honor. 451 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,560 » Okay. 452 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:34,760 » And Judge 453 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:37,080 » So, anyway, okay. 454 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:39,800 » I'm sorry. One One thing that we One 455 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:42,640 thing that I suggested in an email to 456 00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:44,400 the court and to counsel yesterday was 457 00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:48,600 that for the purposes of this show cause 458 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:51,160 hearing, since uh the 75-plus witnesses 459 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:52,920 that the defense had had a 460 00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:55,560 uh 461 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:58,120 issued subpoenas for for this hearing, 462 00:38:55,560 --> 00:39:01,840 um my suggestion was that maybe with 463 00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:04,480 regard to the show cause hearing um as 464 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:05,720 opposed to adjourning, we just recess so 465 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:08,400 that 466 00:39:05,720 --> 00:39:09,760 so that all the subpoenas are still in 467 00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:13,960 effect 468 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:16,960 um for whatever time you choose to 469 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:18,880 um reconvene the show cause hearing in 470 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:20,720 the event that 471 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:23,360 the defense 472 00:39:20,720 --> 00:39:25,640 um or the state 473 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:27,000 goes through these thousands of pages of 474 00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:29,480 records and 475 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:32,680 determines that they do need to 476 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:34,320 call a witness to inquire about records 477 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:35,480 that might still be missing. Does that 478 00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:36,480 make sense? 479 00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:39,200 » Yeah. 480 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:42,840 Uh well, why don't we just uh we just 481 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:44,880 set a another another hearing date 482 00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:47,880 uh so that uh one of those subpoenas be 483 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:49,800 effective for that date as well. That 484 00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:51,120 date if everything's been complied with, 485 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:54,160 then there's no need to have to We don't 486 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:55,960 have to meet if all parties uh notify 487 00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:57,720 the court that uh 488 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,280 the subpoenas have been complied with or 489 00:39:57,720 --> 00:40:01,480 substantially materially and 490 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:03,840 substantially been complied with 491 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:06,000 uh and everybody's satisfied, then we 492 00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:07,000 don't have to have the hearing, but uh I 493 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:09,400 will 494 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,440 set a hearing a date and time 495 00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:11,120 um 496 00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:12,960 and 497 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:14,800 you you've asked for September 14th to 498 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:16,960 comply 499 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:20,040 Mr. Gray, and and everybody's agreed to 500 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:22,520 that and the court has approved it. Uh 501 00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:24,560 we can set that date 502 00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:27,240 as the date for 503 00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:28,560 to reschedule, reset and we recess this 504 00:40:27,240 --> 00:40:29,840 one and and 505 00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:30,880 uh 506 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:34,120 re- 507 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:37,120 uh reconvene it on September 4th 508 00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:39,640 at this same time by Zoom if everybody's 509 00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:41,360 in agreement to that date time and date. 510 00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,760 » Uh your your honor, I'd like to say that 511 00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:44,880 that might not be enough time for 512 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:47,160 defense counsel and DA to go through all 513 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:49,600 of the production if the last compliance 514 00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:51,000 date is September 14th. So, I would 515 00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:53,080 think we might want to push out a little 516 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,960 bit to give them time to review. 517 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:57,680 » All right. 518 00:40:54,960 --> 00:41:00,600 Mr. Spokuminsky, Mr. Best, what would be 519 00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,600 a reasonable time? 520 00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:06,120 » Judge, I can tell you my concern is I 521 00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:09,480 spent 522 00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:12,000 seven These These aren't like 523 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:14,240 CPS records is the We're DFPS records, 524 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:16,920 which is the closest analogy I can think 525 00:41:14,240 --> 00:41:19,520 of. These are 526 00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:22,680 uh a lot of the records are detailed 527 00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:24,280 treatment notes and documentation of 528 00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:26,200 things that are happening on a daily 529 00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:28,320 basis for months while 530 00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:31,240 » Well, I Well, I know that, but 531 00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:32,040 I mean, you know what you asked for. 532 00:41:31,240 --> 00:41:34,200 » Sure. Sure, Judge. 533 00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:37,160 » Can identify them as as what you asked 534 00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:37,160 for, then 535 00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:41,120 that you don't have to go through them 536 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:45,400 in detail. 537 00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:47,400 » Sure. And and my the thought in my head 538 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:49,480 um when Mr. Gray mentioned that is that 539 00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:50,360 we we've got a hard set jury trial 540 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:51,080 coming up. 541 00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:54,760 » That's right. 542 00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:54,760 » And I went through It took me 543 00:41:55,720 --> 00:42:00,000 Really, I'm going to say 7 days. 7 days, 544 00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:02,640 not full days, but working on weekends 545 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:05,800 and nights when I could to go through 546 00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:07,440 2,000 pages of these records. Um that 547 00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:11,000 was the first submission. It was 548 00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:12,320 actually 3,000 pages, I think. Um 549 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:14,440 and that was just kind of skimming 550 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:15,760 through them. That wasn't a hard deep 551 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:18,240 dive. So, 552 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:19,680 if we're talking about another 4,000 553 00:42:18,240 --> 00:42:21,200 pages, 554 00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:23,760 um 555 00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:25,200 my concern is not so much my ability to 556 00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:27,160 go through them all and see what we got. 557 00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:30,440 It's that if we wait any longer, it 558 00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:32,280 starts to get really difficult to 559 00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:34,640 do the kind of deep dive you need to do 560 00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:36,720 to get ready for the trial on 561 00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:37,960 October 23rd. 562 00:42:36,720 --> 00:42:38,840 So, 563 00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:41,200 uh 564 00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:43,880 » Yeah. Yeah, I hear you, but uh 565 00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:43,880 maybe 566 00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:51,960 » I don't necessarily have the answer. 567 00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:51,960 » The the uh 568 00:42:52,720 --> 00:42:55,400 September 569 00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:59,200 uh 28th. 570 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:06,720 Now, let me see. 571 00:43:03,240 --> 00:43:06,720 You said Well, no. 572 00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:16,520 The 25th, September 25th 573 00:43:16,720 --> 00:43:20,400 at 9:00 a.m. 574 00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:22,480 » And Judge, at 10:00 a.m. 575 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:25,160 » 10:00 a.m. Central. 576 00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:27,680 » If I can um just interject on that, I've 577 00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:30,240 got a murder trial scheduled for 578 00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:32,880 September 21st. 579 00:43:30,240 --> 00:43:36,040 Um State versus Jermaine Levy, and we're 580 00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:39,000 anticipating that's going to last 581 00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:40,200 a full week and into the next week for 582 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:42,920 » Well, that's that's going to be 583 00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:43,720 September 25th at 10:00 a.m. 584 00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:46,040 » Okay. 585 00:43:43,720 --> 00:43:46,040 » Okay. 586 00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:52,000 » And this is going to be the continuation 587 00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:53,240 of the show cause hearing, Judge? 588 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:54,800 » That's correct. 589 00:43:53,240 --> 00:43:56,840 » Okay. 590 00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:59,480 » And all the subpoenas uh will remain in 591 00:43:56,840 --> 00:44:01,160 effect for that date, September 25th at 592 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:03,200 10:00 a.m. 593 00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:07,080 Um 594 00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:07,080 we'll meet by Zoom as well. 595 00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:16,200 » Do you need anything else, Ronnie? 596 00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:17,960 » I've got a few other issues that I need 597 00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:18,480 to address with the court. 598 00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:20,680 Um 599 00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:22,360 » Do they involve the 600 00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:25,200 the departments there Vernon? 601 00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:26,680 » Um they do not, Your Honor. 602 00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:29,560 » Okay. 603 00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:31,360 All right, Mr. Moore, Mr. Gray, 604 00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:32,760 anyone else here from Vernon State 605 00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:35,600 Hospital 606 00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:37,240 or Attorney General's office, 607 00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:38,920 you are excused. 608 00:44:37,240 --> 00:44:41,480 » Judge, just to be clear, are they going 609 00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:43,080 to provide the records to us by the 14th 610 00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:47,040 and then we're going to have our hearing 611 00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:47,960 on the 25th? Is that the arrangement? 612 00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:48,320 » Yes. 613 00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:50,320 » Okay. 614 00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:52,600 » Unless you Unless you notify the court 615 00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:53,760 before then you've received all that you 616 00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:55,320 asked for. 617 00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:59,320 » Yes, sir. 618 00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:59,320 » To the best I mean, materially. 619 00:45:02,240 --> 00:45:04,760 » Yes, sir. 620 00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,766 » I mean, these records are important and 621 00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:11,280 and they're material and they're 622 00:45:09,766 --> 00:45:13,000 [clears throat] relevant. 623 00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:14,440 But at some point 624 00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:17,160 you know, we're talking about voluminous 625 00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:17,160 records. 626 00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:22,520 They may may or may not be relevant to 627 00:45:19,240 --> 00:45:22,520 the issues in the case. 628 00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:26,760 Every single one of them you know, that 629 00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:29,800 many 630 00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:33,040 on a week-long trial. 631 00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:33,040 Think about it. 632 00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,200 All right, well, 633 00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:37,680 let's 634 00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:39,080 You all are excused. 635 00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:41,840 » Thank you, Your 636 00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:41,840 Thank you, Your Honor. 637 00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:44,440 » Thank you. 638 00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:55,760 » Okay, what other issues do we need to 639 00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:58,280 discuss? 640 00:45:55,760 --> 00:46:00,720 » Judge, couple of things. Um 641 00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:02,600 we have some 642 00:46:00,720 --> 00:46:05,120 We We a motion 643 00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:06,480 we're going to be filing. I would have 644 00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:08,200 filed it yesterday but I didn't want to 645 00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:10,400 file it at the last second before this 646 00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:13,960 hearing. 647 00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:15,400 We're going to be filing a motion to 648 00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:18,960 authorize 649 00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:20,400 the state to provide a copy of Dr. 650 00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:22,520 Dunham's 651 00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:22,520 um 652 00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:28,560 competency evaluation to 653 00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:30,600 the experts who will be testifying at 654 00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:31,760 the jury trial. 655 00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:34,240 And 656 00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:35,880 I I I 657 00:46:34,240 --> 00:46:37,400 am not advocating that we take that up 658 00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:41,000 now because I have not talked to the 659 00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:42,600 defense counsel about this yet. But in 660 00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:45,520 reviewing the 661 00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:47,280 code of criminal procedure it it appears 662 00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:50,520 to authorize that. 663 00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:52,720 I know before we 664 00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:56,280 have discussed the fact that Dr. Dunham 665 00:46:52,720 --> 00:46:58,640 had not completed his CEs 666 00:46:56,280 --> 00:47:01,320 for that evaluation to come in. 667 00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:04,320 However, the the code specifically 668 00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:04,320 authorizes 669 00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:11,560 experts who are considering competency 670 00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:11,560 to consider 671 00:47:13,240 --> 00:47:18,400 previous mental health evaluations and 672 00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:20,840 treatment records associated with 673 00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:22,640 competency. So I just want you to I want 674 00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:24,200 to let I guess I'm letting the defense 675 00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:26,720 know I want to let you know that that's 676 00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:26,720 coming. 677 00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:31,480 I also want to let the court know just 678 00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:33,120 so you're not surprised. The defense is 679 00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:34,880 aware of this. In fact, they brought it 680 00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:36,520 to my attention. 681 00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:37,680 There's a 682 00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:39,920 I'm going to I'm going to call it an 683 00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:41,280 ongoing investigation 684 00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:43,280 because that's I think that's what it 685 00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:45,840 is. 686 00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:49,640 into allegations that 687 00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:49,640 an employee of Vernon 688 00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:54,680 may have had an inappropriate 689 00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:58,240 relationship with the defendant 690 00:47:54,680 --> 00:48:01,320 while either while he was at Vernon 691 00:47:58,240 --> 00:48:04,440 or after he was discharged. I'm a little 692 00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:05,640 unclear on that, but I'm going to 693 00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:08,000 um 694 00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:10,640 again grain of salt. Um I'm going to go 695 00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:12,880 with there was some kind of 696 00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:14,960 communications happening while he was at 697 00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:16,720 Vernon. That's my understanding. 698 00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:17,960 Um 699 00:48:16,720 --> 00:48:21,600 so 700 00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:22,480 there is a ranger that is investigating 701 00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:24,680 that. 702 00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:26,920 » Hold on. Hold on just a minute. 703 00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:29,880 Um 704 00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:32,320 is this a matter that we need to 705 00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:34,640 that we could take up to the extent in 706 00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:36,640 ex parte rather than 707 00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:39,600 do we need to take it up uh 708 00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:42,440 where we're being live streamed uh 709 00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:44,440 uh or is this something that uh both 710 00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:46,280 counsel and the state uh 711 00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:48,320 » We can take 712 00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:49,720 From the state's perspective, we can 713 00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:50,880 certainly do that in an office 714 00:48:49,720 --> 00:48:52,440 conference. I just want to make the 715 00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:55,400 court aware of it. I know the defense is 716 00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:57,000 aware of it. Um 717 00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:58,760 I just didn't want you to be uh 718 00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:01,280 surprised by that. 719 00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:02,760 Um coming up at our next potentially at 720 00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:03,400 our next pre-trial information about 721 00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:06,960 that. 722 00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:06,960 » Defense, what's your position on that? 723 00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:12,120 » Judge, that's fine if you want to do it 724 00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:12,120 in an office conference. 725 00:49:13,240 --> 00:49:17,560 » I think we should do that. 726 00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:19,480 » That's fine, Judge. 727 00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:22,240 Um 728 00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:25,000 the other thing that um [clears throat] 729 00:49:22,240 --> 00:49:26,720 I think that we need to address, Judge, 730 00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:30,800 and again, we can do this in an office 731 00:49:26,720 --> 00:49:32,360 conference if you want to, but um 732 00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:36,200 the defense filed a motion, defense 733 00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:39,360 motion 55, uh requesting that the court 734 00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:41,880 order the state not to communicate with 735 00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:44,760 um witnesses. 736 00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:47,680 And uh as part of our trial preparation, 737 00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:49,240 we we're obligated to talk to witnesses 738 00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:51,240 um about 739 00:49:49,240 --> 00:49:53,000 uh trial preparation. 740 00:49:51,240 --> 00:49:55,320 Um 741 00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:56,760 and their testimony. So, 742 00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:58,040 I wanted 743 00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:59,120 uh I know the court hadn't ruled on 744 00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:01,400 that, 745 00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:04,000 uh but I wanted to 746 00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:04,480 uh have an opportunity to discuss it um 747 00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:06,680 because I'm 748 00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:08,040 » What was that filed? 749 00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:09,000 I haven't seen it. 750 00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:11,000 » I'm sorry, Judge. 751 00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:12,040 » I have not seen it. 752 00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:13,280 » Um 753 00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:14,280 » Recent or 754 00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:16,240 » It was 755 00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:18,920 It's been filed for a while, Judge, I 756 00:50:16,240 --> 00:50:18,920 believe. 757 00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:22,160 » Okay. 758 00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:24,120 » I don't have a date. 759 00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:26,560 » There's no ruling made on it? 760 00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:29,240 » No, sir. 761 00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:29,240 » All right. 762 00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:36,640 Uh do you want to describe that motion, 763 00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:41,040 Ms. Buksbinski or Mr. Gobel? 764 00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:41,040 » One moment, Judge. I'm pulling it up. 765 00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:09,360 And Mr. Best, you said it was 55? 766 00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:09,360 » 55. Yes, yes. 767 00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:57,600 » Do you have the title of it? 768 00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:57,600 What chance? 769 00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:02,600 » 25578426 770 00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:09,840 » It's really hard to hear. 771 00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:13,680 » Sorry. 772 00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:13,680 February 4th of 26. 773 00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:24,320 » Can hardly hear you. 774 00:52:21,720 --> 00:52:24,320 And Amber? 775 00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:30,800 » It's called a motion to prohibit further 776 00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:30,800 witness tampering. 777 00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:39,960 » Well, 778 00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:43,120 I guess it's the instant law to tamper 779 00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:44,760 with witnesses, but uh for the state to 780 00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:46,200 be able to order the defense for that 781 00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:48,280 matter to 782 00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:49,920 interview witnesses in preparation of 783 00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:52,360 trial and speak 784 00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:55,280 common place. 785 00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:58,560 Does anybody disagree with that? 786 00:52:55,280 --> 00:53:01,240 » And judge, if I may, that was in 787 00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:04,560 relation to a grander issue regarding 788 00:53:01,240 --> 00:53:07,880 the court of inquiry and Mr. Best 789 00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:10,480 speaking with Miss or Dr. Lambert at 790 00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:13,040 Vernon was the issue concerning that and 791 00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:15,400 why we wanted no communication to occur 792 00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:16,920 on that end. 793 00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:19,000 » Yeah, well. 794 00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:22,320 » And judge, that was motion defense 795 00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:23,640 motion 54. 796 00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:27,200 And 797 00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:29,680 um I guess that's a 798 00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:31,280 an issue that we just need to 799 00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:33,560 uh lay to rest, remove forward on, 800 00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:35,040 whatever the court decides. 801 00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:37,880 Um 802 00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:40,800 I know there were some uh 803 00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:43,040 communication between the court and 804 00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:44,920 Judge Woodward and there hasn't been any 805 00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:47,000 resolution to that. 806 00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:48,120 It's kind of outstanding. 807 00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:50,240 And 808 00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:55,880 » It doesn't It doesn't It doesn't require 809 00:53:50,240 --> 00:53:59,640 anything uh by any court my me or Judge 810 00:53:55,880 --> 00:54:02,680 Woodward until some event happens. 811 00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:02,680 That hasn't happened. 812 00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:08,240 You read it read the law regarding court 813 00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:10,880 of inquiry. 814 00:54:08,240 --> 00:54:13,640 An event has to happen initiated by 815 00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:13,640 counsel. 816 00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:17,360 That hasn't happened. 817 00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:19,600 » Okay. 818 00:54:18,240 --> 00:54:23,200 » Therefore, there's no authority to go 819 00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:25,000 forward any type of court of inquiry. 820 00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:25,920 » Okay. 821 00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:28,720 All right. Well, that's 822 00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:32,000 » No, I'm not I'm not going to even 823 00:54:28,720 --> 00:54:32,760 That's going to be a separate situation 824 00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:35,240 uh 825 00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:37,720 uh you know, if you want to set a 826 00:54:35,240 --> 00:54:39,120 hearing on that, but my inclination on 827 00:54:37,720 --> 00:54:41,400 any any 828 00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:44,280 uh motion and that that's not what I 829 00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:47,160 read Ms. Poksinski's motion. She's 830 00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:50,840 specified what she's was trying to reach 831 00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:53,520 and that is any any undue uh tampering 832 00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:55,720 that would be contrary to the law, but 833 00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:57,520 uh simple preparation for trial when 834 00:54:55,720 --> 00:55:00,400 talking to witnesses and preparation of 835 00:54:57,520 --> 00:55:05,080 trial is commonplace and that is 836 00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:06,720 authorized uh by you know, the parties. 837 00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:09,040 And it's simple as that. I haven't 838 00:55:06,720 --> 00:55:11,400 entered an order in any in any respect 839 00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:13,400 in that regard. 840 00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:15,960 So, there's nothing to prohibit you, Mr. 841 00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:18,760 Bess, from talking to witnesses in 842 00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:19,440 preparation for trial. 843 00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:23,640 » Yes, sir. 844 00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:29,080 » Ms. Poksinski, same thing for you guys. 845 00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:31,480 » Okay. So, so my thought, Judge, um 846 00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:35,080 my thought would be that when we have 847 00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:36,240 our our hearing on the 25th 848 00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:38,400 that 849 00:55:36,240 --> 00:55:40,720 uh if we could make that not just a show 850 00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:42,200 cause hearing but a pre-trial hearing as 851 00:55:40,720 --> 00:55:43,920 well, that's kind of what this is 852 00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:44,680 morphed into. 853 00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:46,280 Um, 854 00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:47,080 so that we can 855 00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:48,640 uh 856 00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:51,960 um, so that we can talk about that 857 00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:53,280 motion that we're going to be filing to 858 00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:56,440 allow 859 00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:57,560 our experts to review Dr. Dunham's 860 00:55:56,440 --> 00:55:58,840 um 861 00:55:57,560 --> 00:56:00,560 report. 862 00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:02,440 » All right. 863 00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:04,640 Yeah, we can have a a pre-trial, make 864 00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:07,120 that a pre-trial uh 865 00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:09,120 the the the the extension of show cause 866 00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:12,480 or or re-re-reconvening of the show 867 00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:14,840 cause and uh also a pre-trial to take up 868 00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:17,920 any any pending motions 869 00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:20,840 uh that are filed between now and then, 870 00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:23,520 but uh be sure you file it at least 871 00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:25,800 uh your any any motion be heard on that 872 00:56:23,520 --> 00:56:29,480 date at least uh 873 00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:32,040 say 3 days before so that I'm able to 874 00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:34,600 get a heads-up on it and and read it and 875 00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:36,360 review it. 876 00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:38,480 » Judge, if I may, I think it would be 877 00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:40,920 pertinent to set another hearing date. 878 00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:42,520 We will likewise be filing motions and 879 00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:45,080 to potentially have an order to show 880 00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:46,920 cause where 881 00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:48,360 at least 30 witnesses at this point in 882 00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:50,480 time, depending on the records that come 883 00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:52,400 through, will be asked questions, plus 884 00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:54,440 to address additional motions is going 885 00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:55,400 to be a significant amount of time for 886 00:56:54,440 --> 00:56:57,640 one day. 887 00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:59,160 » What witnesses are you talking about? 888 00:56:57,640 --> 00:56:59,880 » For the order to show cause hearing, 889 00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:01,400 Judge. 890 00:56:59,880 --> 00:57:02,840 » Yeah, the subpoenas. 891 00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:06,160 » Correct, yes. 892 00:57:02,840 --> 00:57:08,080 » Well, didn't we discuss that already? 893 00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:11,280 With with everyone 894 00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:12,720 and the rules and the attorneys? 895 00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:14,600 » Correct, but if there's still records 896 00:57:12,720 --> 00:57:16,960 outstanding, we'll need to be making a 897 00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:19,040 record of that and request and question 898 00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:20,320 witnesses on those specific subpoenas 899 00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:22,400 and why those records haven't been 900 00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:25,080 provided, if they have not. 901 00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:26,680 » We'll do it all on 25th, believe me. 902 00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:29,160 Y'all be ready. 903 00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:30,720 Uh we're not going to we're not going to 904 00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:31,960 extend this out. We're going to get it 905 00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:33,960 all done. 906 00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:35,880 So, I'll work with it, Vernon, with the 907 00:57:33,960 --> 00:57:37,040 Attorney General's office. You get the 908 00:57:35,880 --> 00:57:40,920 records. 909 00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:42,800 You've got You got thousands already. 910 00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:45,960 I don't see how another 911 00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:47,600 10,000 is going to affect the jury's 912 00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:49,240 determination on the issue of 913 00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:51,680 competence. 914 00:57:49,240 --> 00:57:55,000 In other words, you have 915 00:57:51,680 --> 00:57:57,680 everything that that's going to be uh 916 00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:58,960 relevant to a jury in answering the 917 00:57:57,680 --> 00:58:01,240 questions 918 00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:03,280 they're going to have. 919 00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:05,000 Another 10, 20,000 records is not going 920 00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:06,480 to make a difference. 921 00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:07,880 Unless there's a silver bullet in there 922 00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:09,400 somewhere. 923 00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:13,000 And there's in this in these type of 924 00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:13,000 issues, there's no silver bullets. 925 00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:17,320 So. 926 00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:22,720 All right. So, we're going to do it on 927 00:58:21,160 --> 00:58:25,560 the 25th. 928 00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:25,560 So, be prepared. 929 00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:27,960 » Yes, sir. 930 00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:29,840 » If you want to 931 00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:32,040 subpoena 30 witnesses, we're going to 932 00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:33,800 take the time, and you can listen to 933 00:58:32,040 --> 00:58:37,080 whatever testimony you want on it, but 934 00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:37,080 we're going to do it on the 25th. 935 00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:41,680 But I I I'm 936 00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:43,360 you know, it just that's what it's going 937 00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:44,800 to be. 938 00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:46,040 So, you be able to communicate with 939 00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:48,440 Vernon and tell him who you're going to 940 00:58:46,040 --> 00:58:51,040 need it specifically. So, there's no 941 00:58:48,440 --> 00:58:53,080 delay, no anything like that. We'll line 942 00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:55,720 them up, question them, 943 00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:55,720 get it done. 944 00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:00,960 All right. 945 00:58:59,480 --> 00:59:03,480 What other What other issues do we need 946 00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:06,240 to discuss? 947 00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:07,640 » Um Jensen, am I forgetting anything? I 948 00:59:06,240 --> 00:59:09,520 think we covered all the issues I wanted 949 00:59:07,640 --> 00:59:11,440 to cover. 950 00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:13,240 » I believe everything's been covered. 951 00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:16,160 » Okay. 952 00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:17,640 Yes, sir. Well, thanks for uh 953 00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:19,320 hearing me out on those additional 954 00:59:17,640 --> 00:59:21,440 issues that I 955 00:59:19,320 --> 00:59:22,720 just want to make sure we have uh an 956 00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:24,280 opportunity to cover everything we need 957 00:59:22,720 --> 00:59:25,960 to cover before we get too close to your 958 00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:28,320 jury trial. 959 00:59:25,960 --> 00:59:29,040 » Yes. All right. Okay, you'll have a good 960 00:59:28,320 --> 00:59:30,680 day. 961 00:59:29,040 --> 00:59:33,200 » Thank you, Judge. 962 00:59:30,680 --> 00:59:33,200 » You're adjourned. 963 00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:42,600 » Thank you.