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Good morning. We'll get underway. We're moving a

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few people around. But we'll get started in

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the meantime. My name is Mark Scheipmeyer. I

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am the county's hearing examiner. I've been asked

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to convene a public hearing to consider testimony

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as part of a fact finding to determine

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whether certain permits should be approved for a

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project that is known as the Wandering River

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Retreat Center bearing the county's shoreline number 20

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Four-ten 40 and campground site binding site plan

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number 2435.01. The property located at 4311 Kalama

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River Road owned by Jeremy Irish. Purpose of

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today's hearing is to consider whether three permits

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should be approved. The first is referred to

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as a shoreline substantial development permit. The second,

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which I'll need to perhaps better understand is

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a shoreline conditional use permit. And the third

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is a campground binding site plan approval. All

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three of those come before the hearing examiner

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for decision. This is a public hearing for

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the purpose of considering those requests. Many of

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you have probably been in public hearings of

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one kind or another, but I doubt that

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many of you have been in front of

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this type of hearing. And so it's important

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that we go over the process and the

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rules and what's taking place so that we

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all have a common understanding of what to

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anticipate today. And I should note that this

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is taking place in a room that I

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have never been in before. I've been the

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county's hearing examiner for about twenty years, but

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this is the first time I've sat in

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this room. And so it's a little disconcerting,

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lighting, the location, everything else is just a

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bit different. So I'm getting used to it

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and lots of screens three inches from my

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face. And so I will adapt as quickly

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and as fully as I'm capable of doing

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so, so that the hearing goes well. And

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it may cause me a little confusion from

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time to time. So if I stop and

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seem to be flustered a little bit, it's

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getting used to my surroundings. So about the

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hearing. The hearing has three components. It's to

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hear first from county staff. I believe that

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would be Mr. Kreitzer and perhaps other members

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of county staff. The record should reflect that

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a number of county staff are present today.

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Once the county has made its presentation, then

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the applicant is allowed the opportunity to add

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or subtract to what the county has recommended.

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And those two parts of the hearing take

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place first for the benefit of the public

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so that the public gets a better picture

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of the entire application before it's asked to

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comment on it. Again, that's why the public

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goes third. So the third piece, the third

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leg of the stool is the public comment

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that takes place after the staff comment and

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then the applicant's comments. And so I wanna

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spend just a couple of minutes talking about

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that piece, because that's the most important piece

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of today's hearing. First of all, I think

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there's a signup sheet likely going around. I

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appreciate that. That signup sheet is not binding.

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If you signed it and then change your

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mind, you're not obligated to still speak. If

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you didn't sign it, but have decided that

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you would like to speak, well, you're gonna

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be given that opportunity. And so before it's

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done, I'll make certain that anybody who might

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have wanted the opportunity to speak has been

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given that opportunity. Secondly, I'm going to restrict

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public testimony to five minutes per person. Some

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may feel like that's a tight restriction. It

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is not. Five minutes is a long time

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to talk. And so not many people will

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likely need more than five minutes of testimony.

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Now, if you do, if you're a member

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of the public and you think that your

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testimony would be longer than five minutes, well

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then I'll simply ask a courtesy from you.

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And that is that you defer your testimony

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to the end of the line. And that's

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simply as a courtesy to all the other

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people who have come to testify so that

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you're not holding them up and making them

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stay longer just because you're long winded. And

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so if you think your presentation has many

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points to which that will take longer, we'll

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then simply go to the end of the

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line and ask me at that point, if

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you have my permission to go beyond five

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minutes and undoubtedly I'll give you that permission.

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Here's where I start offending people in some

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of my comments. So this is not a

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political process. This is a legal process that

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we're going through today. So what does that

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mean? It means I'm not interested in public

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opinion. I'm not interested in what your opinions

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are. I'm not interested in the number of

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people who are for a project as opposed

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to the number of people who are opposed

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to the project. I'm not interested in petitions.

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I'm not interested in anything that's intended to

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demonstrate a common belief about a project. That

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as a matter of law is not what

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I'm allowed to consider as part of this

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type of hearing. I, again, often irritate, annoy,

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offend people when I remind them of those

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facts, but it's important that you understand what

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I am obligated to consider and what I

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am not allowed to consider as part of

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a fact finding decision. So this is effectively

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a court of law. I am deciding based

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upon the findings that I make as to

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the project for or against, and therefore what

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my final decision will be based upon those

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factual findings. Not upon any public opinion, not

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upon popularity of a project, but based upon

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the factual findings that I reach. So that

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gets us to your testimony. If you're wanting

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to testify today, and I hope all of

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you want to testify, the more the better,

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what I'll remind you is of that standard.

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So first of all, if you need to

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refer to me, you can either refer to

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me as Mr. Scheife Meyer, or you can

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refer to me as Mr. Hearing Examiner, your

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preference. And so if you want me to

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ask a question or you want to speak

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to me, you might say, Mr. Scheife Meyer,

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I am opposed to this project. But if

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all you say is that, or you say,

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I'm opposed to it and so are my

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neighbors, With all due respect, you haven't moved

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the ball down the field. That opinion is

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not beneficial to me in that final decision

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making I'm required to make. So instead, if

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you might testify as follows, Mr. Hearing Examiner,

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I oppose this project for the following four

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reasons. It's those four reasons that I'm interested,

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not on the fact that you're opposed, but

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on the four reasons why you are opposed.

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And that is what I will then consider

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in rendering my final set of findings of

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fact, which then drive my legal conclusions and

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my ultimate decision. So if you wanna testify,

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no opinions, give me facts. That's what I'm

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interested in considering when rendering my final decision.

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And lastly, there will be no public response

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to anyone's testimony. There's gonna be no clapping.

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There's gonna be no expressions of support or

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hostility. There's gonna be no demonstration of any

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kind following anyone's testimony. That's the quickest exit

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to this room is saying or doing anything

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after anyone has testified. This is a courtroom

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and you treat it like a courtroom. You

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don't clap in a courtroom. You don't hoot

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and holler or show support. You respect the

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system. You treat everyone civilly. You recognize that

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this is a very formal legal process. Anyone

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who wants to disagree with that will simply

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need to be in another room doing something

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else. Everyone who does testify today, county staff,

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including the applicant and including all members of

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the public will do so under oath. There

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will be first sworn and we are maintaining

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a verbatim recording of this hearing because anyone

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who feels aggrieved by my decision has the

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right to appeal that decision, whichever of the

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three parties it may be, that appeal would

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be to the Cowlitz County Superior Court. In

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that instance, the court would not conduct a

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new hearing. It would listen to this hearing

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and decide whether my decision was appropriately made.

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So since it's only listening to this hearing,

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it's incumbent on me to make sure that

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this hearing is fully capturing all of the

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testimony that is being received so that should

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it be appealed, the court has a full

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and complete copy of the proceedings. And for

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that reason, it's important that your testimony be

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captured at places where it can be memorialized.

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So if you wish to speak, sorry, but

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you will need to come to a microphone,

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not so much to amplify your testimony, but

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to memorialize that testimony for that record. So

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again, new room, don't know how we're operating

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here, but staff can provide us more information

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as to how everyone will be speaking to

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a location in which their testimony can be

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captured. I think those are all of my

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public comments. So let us get us underway

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with testimony. So that would begin again with

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county staff and before doing so, should recognize

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that in advance of today's hearing, I've received

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the staff report, which is authored by Mr.

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Kreitzer. That staff report comes with about 200

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pages of other material. I have read every

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page of that 200 pages and a large

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part of that is public comment. If you

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submitted a public comment, I have read it

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in advance of today's hearing. And I have

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read all of the reports scientific and otherwise

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in advance of today's hearing. I'm fully knowledgeable

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about all materials that have been given to

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the county prior to today's hearing. I'll determine

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evidencing numbers for exhibits based upon all that.

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I'll have to give that a little bit

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of thought as to how I identify those

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as exhibits because of how they've come in.

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So in the event there are additional exhibits

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presented today, I'll simply begin with exhibit 100.

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That way I've given myself plenty of latitude

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for identifying all the exhibits that have been

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submitted in advance of today's hearing. So if

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you have something that you want to submit

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as an exhibit, you'll need to ask me

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if you can, and I'll need to approve

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it. And you will need to receive it

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in a copy that would be beneficial if

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you would have made available to others, but

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understand where that oftentimes proves to be difficult

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on the day of the hearing. If you're

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testifying and you're doing so off of a

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written sheet of paper that you've come ready,

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you've taken your notes and you've written them

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down and you've written out your narrative, It's

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often useful if you'll then submit your written

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statement as an exhibit for the simple reason

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that all of us, me included, if we're

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reading off a sheet of paper, we speak

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faster. We pick up our pace. We speak

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faster than we would if we were simply

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talking. And so what happens is when you're

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reading from that sheet of paper, I am

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working hard to stay up with you, but

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it gets hard because you're talking so fast,

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making your point so quickly that it's difficult

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for me to track sometimes what it is

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that you're trying to say. So in that

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instance, it's useful if you'll then also give

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me your written speech so that I can

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take a moment later and look at it

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in a more measured pace where I can

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better understand some of the points that you

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may have gone through very quickly in your

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oral presentation. So again, if you've made a

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speech in advance, many people do, and that's

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a great idea. It is useful if you'll

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then surrender the speech as an exhibit so

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that I can use it to better understand

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some of the points that you were making.

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All right, I think I've exhausted all the

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points I wanna make in advance of testimony.

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Let's get us underway. That begins with the

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00:13:39,545 --> 00:13:41,705
presentation by county staff. That would be Mr.

260
00:13:41,705 --> 00:13:44,185
Kreitzer. Mr. Kreitzer, let's have you sworn, do

261
00:13:44,185 --> 00:13:45,785
you swear or affirm to tell the truth,

262
00:13:45,785 --> 00:13:47,305
the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

263
00:13:47,305 --> 00:13:52,000
I do. Go ahead. Thank you. So the

264
00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:53,920
case we're hearing today is regarding a level

265
00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:56,720
two shoreline substantial development permit with a conditional

266
00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:59,279
use element and a campground binding site plan.

267
00:14:06,095 --> 00:14:08,335
Olma Design and Jeremy Irish prepared an application

268
00:14:08,335 --> 00:14:10,815
for the proposed construction of a camping retreat

269
00:14:10,815 --> 00:14:14,060
and event center with related site improvements. The

270
00:14:14,060 --> 00:14:16,300
site is currently zoned as unzoned and has

271
00:14:16,300 --> 00:14:19,900
a comprehensive plan designation of rural. Rural areas

272
00:14:19,900 --> 00:14:22,380
are characterized by low density residential uses that

273
00:14:22,380 --> 00:14:25,340
are compatible with natural land practices in addition

274
00:14:25,340 --> 00:14:28,654
to small scale commercial and industrial uses, tourism

275
00:14:28,654 --> 00:14:32,495
opportunities, community facilities, along with timber management and

276
00:14:32,495 --> 00:14:38,014
agriculture. And per Cowlitz County Code 18.10x, excuse

277
00:14:38,014 --> 00:14:41,230
me, 0.275A, all uses which have not been

278
00:14:41,230 --> 00:14:43,950
declared a nuisance by statute resolution ordinance or

279
00:14:43,950 --> 00:14:46,830
court of competent jurisdiction are permitted within the

280
00:14:46,830 --> 00:14:51,310
unzoned district. However, because the application includes a

281
00:14:51,310 --> 00:14:53,550
campground element, it is elevated to a special

282
00:14:53,550 --> 00:15:01,055
use permit. Okay, go ahead. Sorry. The shoreline

283
00:15:01,055 --> 00:15:03,295
along the subject parcel has a shoreline environment

284
00:15:03,295 --> 00:15:06,975
designation of rural conservancy and the proposed retreat

285
00:15:06,975 --> 00:15:09,055
and events center would be considered a recreational

286
00:15:09,055 --> 00:15:11,959
use thus requiring a level two shoreline substantial

287
00:15:11,959 --> 00:15:15,240
development permit per the shoreline master program table

288
00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:18,920
eight-one. There is a floodplain present on the

289
00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:22,600
parcel and per the SMP, the shoreline jurisdiction

290
00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:26,275
extends 200 feet horizontally from the edge of

291
00:15:26,275 --> 00:15:29,155
the floodway. And this places a portion of

292
00:15:29,155 --> 00:15:33,075
the proposed parking within the shoreline jurisdiction, which

293
00:15:33,075 --> 00:15:35,635
is where the conditional use element. And let's

294
00:15:35,635 --> 00:15:37,155
stop there for a minute, Mr. Kreitzer. That's

295
00:15:37,155 --> 00:15:39,529
where I get tangled up. The applicant's conditional

296
00:15:39,529 --> 00:15:43,850
use permit, or sorry, critical areas report opines

297
00:15:43,850 --> 00:15:46,410
that a conditional use is not present or

298
00:15:46,410 --> 00:15:49,290
is not needed because the parking is existing

299
00:15:49,290 --> 00:15:55,285
parking, not new parking. Does the county then

300
00:15:56,005 --> 00:15:58,005
disagree as to that aspect and believe that

301
00:15:58,005 --> 00:16:01,365
existing parking requires conditional use permit? No, the

302
00:16:01,365 --> 00:16:03,925
existing parking does not require a conditional use

303
00:16:03,925 --> 00:16:08,000
permit, just the new proposed parking. I thought

304
00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:10,079
I read in their critical areas report that

305
00:16:10,079 --> 00:16:12,560
they were revising the parking to take any

306
00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:16,480
new parking out of shoreline jurisdiction that I'm

307
00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:18,319
well, I'll come to them in a minute,

308
00:16:18,319 --> 00:16:21,145
but is that not your understanding then? I

309
00:16:21,225 --> 00:16:26,025
believe they've revised to remove any encroachment within

310
00:16:26,025 --> 00:16:28,585
the traditional 200 foot shoreline jurisdiction and outside

311
00:16:28,585 --> 00:16:30,905
of the critical areas associated with the shoreline,

312
00:16:31,225 --> 00:16:34,410
but they had to place some parking landward

313
00:16:34,410 --> 00:16:36,490
of the ordinary high watermark and close to

314
00:16:36,490 --> 00:16:38,650
the current development, but it's still due to

315
00:16:38,650 --> 00:16:41,770
the floodway would be considered. So there is

316
00:16:41,770 --> 00:16:45,290
new parking proposed within shoreline jurisdiction, but not

317
00:16:45,290 --> 00:16:49,165
within traditional shoreline, but extended shoreline. Correct. Okay,

318
00:16:49,165 --> 00:16:55,404
alright. So the public hearing objective is to

319
00:16:55,404 --> 00:16:57,485
review the level two SSDP with the conditional

320
00:16:57,485 --> 00:17:00,524
use permit, and this is pursuant to Chapter

321
00:17:00,524 --> 00:17:04,569
90.58 of the RCW section 8.7 of the

322
00:17:04,569 --> 00:17:14,970
SMP and Cowlitz County code 18.56.055. So the

323
00:17:14,970 --> 00:17:19,964
applicant proposes 37 campsites on 12.76 acres of

324
00:17:19,964 --> 00:17:24,845
land. They've proposed 10 hype domes, nine drop

325
00:17:24,845 --> 00:17:27,724
structures, and both of those are prefabricated structures.

326
00:17:27,724 --> 00:17:30,605
And I've included some image examples in the

327
00:17:30,605 --> 00:17:34,090
presentation. They also proposed four camping pods which

328
00:17:34,090 --> 00:17:37,210
will include three tents each in addition to

329
00:17:37,210 --> 00:17:40,650
four individual tent camping sites and two recreational

330
00:17:40,650 --> 00:17:44,090
vehicle sites. There's some density calculations that go

331
00:17:44,090 --> 00:17:47,435
into proposed campgrounds and the density is 15

332
00:17:47,435 --> 00:17:50,395
camping spaces per gross acre. And so there

333
00:17:50,395 --> 00:17:52,715
are 37 proposed sites is well below the

334
00:17:52,715 --> 00:17:55,755
maximum of 191.4 camping sites that the site

335
00:17:55,755 --> 00:18:00,090
could support. The project also proposes to utilize

336
00:18:00,090 --> 00:18:02,970
and remodel some existing structures. They proposed to

337
00:18:02,970 --> 00:18:06,249
remodel one existing structure into a caretaker residence

338
00:18:06,250 --> 00:18:08,250
and another of the existing structures into an

339
00:18:08,250 --> 00:18:12,105
event center. They're also proposing some pertinent project

340
00:18:12,105 --> 00:18:16,665
development, including a road, parking, walkway, landscaping, and

341
00:18:16,665 --> 00:18:21,705
utility improvements associated with campground operation. These are

342
00:18:21,705 --> 00:18:26,560
examples of hype domes. They're small prefabricated domes

343
00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:29,520
that are used for camping or for recreational

344
00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:33,920
uses. And these are examples of drop structures.

345
00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,360
I believe that they are essentially prefabricated tiny

346
00:18:37,360 --> 00:18:43,975
homes or very small cabins. The property is

347
00:18:43,975 --> 00:18:46,135
bordered by it to the North by the

348
00:18:46,295 --> 00:18:48,535
Clam River Road. And the majority of the

349
00:18:48,535 --> 00:18:50,855
properties to the North are designated forest land

350
00:18:50,855 --> 00:18:53,175
with some undeveloped land, not in the DFL

351
00:18:53,175 --> 00:18:57,520
classification. Single family residences exist beyond the undeveloped

352
00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,000
land and designated forest land that borders it.

353
00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:02,320
The land is bordered to the South directly

354
00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:04,160
by the Clamber River and then beyond the

355
00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,240
river is designated forest land that's owned by

356
00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:14,455
Weyerhaeuser. Your house, John's House. The land to

357
00:19:14,455 --> 00:19:16,134
the east is a cabin with a single

358
00:19:16,134 --> 00:19:19,575
family residence tax classification. I believe this structure

359
00:19:19,575 --> 00:19:22,134
is not permitted. And then beyond that is

360
00:19:22,134 --> 00:19:26,149
designated forest land. To the West adjacent is

361
00:19:26,149 --> 00:19:28,070
also land that's owned by the applicant Mr.

362
00:19:28,070 --> 00:19:30,070
Irish that will remain undeveloped in the current

363
00:19:30,070 --> 00:19:32,870
proposal and any changes to that would require

364
00:19:32,870 --> 00:19:42,175
residents and residential uses. Let's go back to

365
00:19:42,175 --> 00:19:45,215
the east. So the cabin when you say

366
00:19:45,215 --> 00:19:50,095
it's not permitted, could you, is it, does

367
00:19:50,095 --> 00:19:53,760
it predate? It predates the existence of building

368
00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:56,400
and planning. Okay, so instead of saying non

369
00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,280
permitted, might describe it as legally non conforming?

370
00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:07,355
Yes. I've included some aerial photos of the

371
00:20:07,355 --> 00:20:10,075
project site so you can see some of

372
00:20:10,075 --> 00:20:12,235
the current impervious surfaces in addition to some

373
00:20:12,235 --> 00:20:14,715
of the existing structures that are proposed to

374
00:20:14,715 --> 00:20:17,995
be utilized and the location to the Clamber

375
00:20:17,995 --> 00:20:24,169
River. This is just another photo from a

376
00:20:24,169 --> 00:20:37,315
different angle. Amazing. And here is a large

377
00:20:37,315 --> 00:20:40,995
scale view of the proposed development. The property

378
00:20:40,995 --> 00:20:43,075
that Mr. Irish owns to the West of

379
00:20:43,075 --> 00:20:47,410
the proposed campground will be serving to access

380
00:20:47,410 --> 00:20:53,410
through his private road or private driveway. Here

381
00:20:53,410 --> 00:20:57,170
is a closer, still hard to see. I

382
00:20:57,170 --> 00:20:59,475
believe I have a better photo here of

383
00:20:59,475 --> 00:21:02,675
the layout of the proposed campground, including the

384
00:21:02,675 --> 00:21:05,875
existing buildings, any new proposed impervious surfaces or

385
00:21:05,875 --> 00:21:10,035
new proposed development, the location of the hype

386
00:21:10,035 --> 00:21:12,675
domes, the location of the drop structures in

387
00:21:12,675 --> 00:21:15,720
addition to all of the tent camping spaces.

388
00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:25,560
And this photo is from the critical areas

389
00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:28,725
report that also shows all of the proposed

390
00:21:28,725 --> 00:21:30,885
structures in addition to the different critical areas

391
00:21:30,885 --> 00:21:34,085
that exist on-site. And so this light blue

392
00:21:34,085 --> 00:21:39,205
portion here, I don't know, just north of

393
00:21:39,205 --> 00:21:41,285
some of the camping spots, of the Klamath

394
00:21:41,285 --> 00:21:45,380
River, That is the encroachment of the drain

395
00:21:45,380 --> 00:21:48,419
field and of the proposed parking locations that

396
00:21:48,419 --> 00:21:50,980
are within the extended shoreline jurisdiction that is

397
00:21:50,980 --> 00:21:53,779
extended due to the presence of floodplain or

398
00:21:53,779 --> 00:22:02,315
floodway. Here are some photos to show postings

399
00:22:02,315 --> 00:22:05,595
of the subject property in addition to postings

400
00:22:05,595 --> 00:22:09,275
within the daily news that indicated the application

401
00:22:09,275 --> 00:22:11,595
in addition to the public hearing time and

402
00:22:11,595 --> 00:22:17,820
date. Per the comprehensive plan, rural areas are

403
00:22:17,820 --> 00:22:20,140
intended to provide for independent and private rural

404
00:22:20,140 --> 00:22:22,700
living without significant encroachment on lands used for

405
00:22:22,700 --> 00:22:25,934
commercial timber or AG production. Rural areas are

406
00:22:25,934 --> 00:22:29,295
characterized by low density residential uses compatible with

407
00:22:29,295 --> 00:22:31,615
natural land potential, small scale commercial and industrial

408
00:22:31,615 --> 00:22:34,494
uses, and tourism opportunities as I identified earlier.

409
00:22:35,934 --> 00:22:38,789
Goal land use 10 is to preserve rural

410
00:22:38,789 --> 00:22:41,669
character while respecting the interests of property owners.

411
00:22:43,270 --> 00:22:45,910
And 10.1 is to support and encourage uses

412
00:22:45,910 --> 00:22:48,470
within rural areas to sustain and are compatible

413
00:22:48,470 --> 00:22:50,870
with rural character and the current level of

414
00:22:50,870 --> 00:22:54,575
public services and facilities. Land Use Goal 10.2

415
00:22:54,575 --> 00:22:57,774
encourages and supports economic development projects in rural

416
00:22:57,774 --> 00:23:00,735
areas, particularly those which focus on natural environment

417
00:23:00,735 --> 00:23:04,575
and economic resource lands. A relatively small scale

418
00:23:04,575 --> 00:23:06,815
recreation and retreat center meets the rural land

419
00:23:06,815 --> 00:23:10,260
use goals identified within the County's comprehensive plan,

420
00:23:10,500 --> 00:23:12,580
which identifies the small scale commercial use and

421
00:23:12,580 --> 00:23:17,940
tourism opportunities. Per the submitted critical areas ordinance,

422
00:23:17,940 --> 00:23:21,514
the proposed retreat, me, critical areas assessment, the

423
00:23:21,514 --> 00:23:23,755
proposed retreat and event center should not negatively

424
00:23:23,755 --> 00:23:26,875
impact any of the critical areas on-site through

425
00:23:26,875 --> 00:23:32,714
mitigation purposes. Additionally, the submitted traffic impact analysis

426
00:23:32,794 --> 00:23:35,514
indicates that the impacted portion of Calambora Road

427
00:23:35,514 --> 00:23:38,550
and Greenwood Road is a statistically safe corridor

428
00:23:38,550 --> 00:23:41,270
of travel with adequate site distances and that

429
00:23:41,270 --> 00:23:43,270
the proposed access point will be safe and

430
00:23:43,270 --> 00:23:50,005
efficient for operation of the proposed development. Per

431
00:23:50,005 --> 00:23:52,645
Cowlitz County code eighteen point five six point

432
00:23:52,645 --> 00:23:55,045
one zero zero, the minimum size acreage for

433
00:23:55,045 --> 00:23:57,205
a campground is one half acre. The proposed

434
00:23:57,205 --> 00:23:59,525
development is on 12.76 acres of land thus

435
00:23:59,525 --> 00:24:04,340
meeting this requirement. Additionally, communal areas should be

436
00:24:04,340 --> 00:24:07,060
located to limit noise trespass, natural and landscape

437
00:24:07,060 --> 00:24:09,860
vegetation shall be maintained along existing property lines

438
00:24:09,860 --> 00:24:12,420
and within exterior setbacks to the maximum extent

439
00:24:12,420 --> 00:24:15,794
possible. So the applicant has proposed to place

440
00:24:15,875 --> 00:24:20,035
all communal areas removed from property boundaries and

441
00:24:20,035 --> 00:24:22,835
located to reduce all potential noise trespass onto

442
00:24:22,835 --> 00:24:28,160
neighboring parcels within reasonable expectations. The applicant has

443
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,519
also proposed to maintain natural and landscape vegetation

444
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,160
along exterior property lines and setbacks to meet

445
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:38,880
screening requirements. So lighting shall be provided at

446
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,554
internal intersections and outdoor communal areas, and a

447
00:24:42,554 --> 00:24:44,315
condition of approval would be that all lighting

448
00:24:44,315 --> 00:24:47,115
shall be shielded and angled downward to limit

449
00:24:47,115 --> 00:24:52,475
potential light trespass to adjacent properties. And some

450
00:24:52,475 --> 00:24:55,034
of our findings regarding shoreline management and shoreline

451
00:24:55,034 --> 00:25:00,730
master program compliance. Because the proposed recreational development

452
00:25:00,730 --> 00:25:03,450
use is within a rural conservancy, shoreline environment

453
00:25:03,450 --> 00:25:06,090
designation, it does require the level two shoreline

454
00:25:06,250 --> 00:25:09,450
and the presence of a transportation use, which

455
00:25:09,450 --> 00:25:12,405
is the new proposed parking, it requires the

456
00:25:12,405 --> 00:25:15,205
conditional use permit as well. And while the

457
00:25:15,205 --> 00:25:17,205
proposed development is to be outside of the

458
00:25:17,205 --> 00:25:22,245
combined 160 foot shoreline buffer and the building

459
00:25:22,245 --> 00:25:25,549
setback, the shoreline jurisdiction extends beyond the traditional

460
00:25:25,549 --> 00:25:28,590
200 feet, due to the presence of the

461
00:25:28,590 --> 00:25:32,669
floodway. And per the submitted critical areas assessment,

462
00:25:32,669 --> 00:25:34,429
the retreat and event center has been designed

463
00:25:34,429 --> 00:25:37,230
to avoid direct impacts to the on-site wetland,

464
00:25:37,555 --> 00:25:41,235
riparian and shoreline habitat. There was also a

465
00:25:41,235 --> 00:25:44,275
cultural resources survey that was conducted and they

466
00:25:44,275 --> 00:25:48,355
found no evidence of archeological items and they

467
00:25:48,355 --> 00:25:51,155
recommended no further archeological work to be warranted

468
00:25:51,155 --> 00:25:53,270
in the project area, but a condition of

469
00:25:53,270 --> 00:25:55,990
approval would still be the presence of inadvertent

470
00:25:55,990 --> 00:25:59,909
discovery language standard for projects within the shoreline.

471
00:26:01,590 --> 00:26:04,950
So in conclusion, the individual findings and conclusions

472
00:26:04,950 --> 00:26:08,065
stated within the staff report establishes that the

473
00:26:08,065 --> 00:26:10,225
proposal either meets or can be conditioned to

474
00:26:10,225 --> 00:26:13,265
meet the Cowlitz County land use standards, the

475
00:26:13,265 --> 00:26:17,265
campground code, the standards established in the shoreline

476
00:26:17,265 --> 00:26:19,985
master program, and the criteria for granting a

477
00:26:19,985 --> 00:26:23,200
substantial shoreline development permit within a shoreline of

478
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:25,919
the state. Completion of this project if constructed

479
00:26:25,919 --> 00:26:28,400
and as conditioned within the staff report will

480
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,120
therefore be consistent with the Shoreline Management Act,

481
00:26:31,120 --> 00:26:34,559
the County Shoreline Management Master Program, and existing

482
00:26:34,559 --> 00:26:39,445
land uses nearby to the project area. Thank

483
00:26:39,445 --> 00:26:41,365
you. I've got a few questions, Mr. Kritz.

484
00:26:41,365 --> 00:26:44,805
Actually a number of them in no particular

485
00:26:44,805 --> 00:26:47,845
order. Before I do so, I should mildly

486
00:26:47,845 --> 00:26:54,049
correct myself on what happens after this hearing.

487
00:26:54,210 --> 00:26:57,250
It's a bit more complicated than the simple

488
00:26:57,250 --> 00:27:00,930
explanation I gave. So again, there are three

489
00:27:00,930 --> 00:27:04,755
different things that are being sought today. A

490
00:27:04,755 --> 00:27:09,715
shoreline substantial development permit, a shoreline conditional use

491
00:27:09,715 --> 00:27:14,275
permit, and a campground binding site plan approval.

492
00:27:14,755 --> 00:27:16,755
So each of those has a slightly different

493
00:27:16,755 --> 00:27:20,090
path forward after today's hearing, which I wasn't

494
00:27:20,090 --> 00:27:23,770
very good at explaining. So the shoreline substantial

495
00:27:23,770 --> 00:27:26,890
development permit, if I approve it, then goes

496
00:27:26,890 --> 00:27:29,610
to the Department of Ecology for a twenty

497
00:27:29,610 --> 00:27:32,890
one day review process. That's simply to review

498
00:27:32,890 --> 00:27:34,775
my decision and make sure that it is

499
00:27:34,775 --> 00:27:40,695
consistent with requirements. The shoreline conditional use permit,

500
00:27:41,735 --> 00:27:45,735
my decision is a recommendation only, and it's

501
00:27:45,735 --> 00:27:48,535
not the final decision. Rather, the Department of

502
00:27:48,535 --> 00:27:52,360
Ecology issues the final determination on a conditional

503
00:27:52,360 --> 00:27:55,480
use permit. So that decision is made by

504
00:27:55,480 --> 00:28:00,919
that agency based upon my decision. And then

505
00:28:00,919 --> 00:28:04,455
thirdly is the campground binding site plan that

506
00:28:04,455 --> 00:28:07,335
does not go to ecology and anyone who

507
00:28:07,335 --> 00:28:11,335
wished to felt aggrieved by my decision there

508
00:28:11,894 --> 00:28:14,934
would seek remedy through the county under the

509
00:28:14,934 --> 00:28:17,789
Land Use Petition Act. So again, that's a

510
00:28:17,789 --> 00:28:20,190
fuller explanation of all the things that are

511
00:28:20,190 --> 00:28:22,110
taking place today. It's a bit more complicated

512
00:28:22,110 --> 00:28:27,549
than the standard package. Okay. In no particular

513
00:28:27,549 --> 00:28:29,150
order, Mr. Feitzler, I'd like to first to

514
00:28:29,150 --> 00:28:34,645
talk about water, potable water. We have, what

515
00:28:34,645 --> 00:28:36,804
I assume is a reliance on the existing

516
00:28:36,804 --> 00:28:46,740
exempt well for water for this project. So

517
00:28:46,740 --> 00:28:54,980
the project describes a caretaker's residence, a center,

518
00:28:56,340 --> 00:28:59,675
two shower buildings, and then potable water necessary

519
00:28:59,675 --> 00:29:05,355
for 30 some camping sites. That well cannot

520
00:29:05,355 --> 00:29:10,235
exceed 5,000 gallons per day. And it's providing

521
00:29:10,635 --> 00:29:14,630
water to a lot of individuals, including children.

522
00:29:15,190 --> 00:29:18,470
If by comparison, we were talking about a

523
00:29:18,470 --> 00:29:23,670
six lot subdivision using one well, we would

524
00:29:23,670 --> 00:29:25,990
need to have a Class B well system

525
00:29:26,835 --> 00:29:29,875
and all six of those houses would have

526
00:29:29,875 --> 00:29:33,475
to share that 5,000 square or 5,000 gallons

527
00:29:33,475 --> 00:29:35,075
of water per day and make sure that

528
00:29:35,075 --> 00:29:37,554
they didn't use more than that. If we

529
00:29:37,554 --> 00:29:42,480
were ahead of 20 lot division, we'd have

530
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:44,720
to have a class A water system. And

531
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:46,640
again, we'd have to have evidence that no

532
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:48,480
more water is being used than what is

533
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,919
allowed under law. What I'm concerned here is

534
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:56,825
I don't find a discussion about water use

535
00:29:56,825 --> 00:30:02,825
and water restrictions. And I'm wanting to make

536
00:30:02,825 --> 00:30:07,145
certain that if approved, this system would not

537
00:30:07,145 --> 00:30:10,270
use more than it's allowed. And more importantly,

538
00:30:10,510 --> 00:30:13,470
that the water being used by paying guests

539
00:30:13,470 --> 00:30:16,830
is in fact a good water, clean water.

540
00:30:17,870 --> 00:30:21,550
So I don't see any conditions or discussion

541
00:30:22,435 --> 00:30:29,155
about water, it's limitations on capacity or limitations

542
00:30:29,155 --> 00:30:34,035
on allowed use or upon its treatment. But

543
00:30:34,035 --> 00:30:36,195
at a minimum, seems to me that this

544
00:30:36,195 --> 00:30:38,340
should be a system that falls at least

545
00:30:38,340 --> 00:30:41,540
under class B standards, perhaps under class A

546
00:30:41,540 --> 00:30:46,660
standards for monitoring and regulation to ensure that

547
00:30:46,660 --> 00:30:49,140
a lot of paying customers are in fact

548
00:30:49,140 --> 00:30:53,315
utilizing clean water. So I'd like to come

549
00:30:53,315 --> 00:30:55,635
back to that or let the parties come

550
00:30:55,635 --> 00:30:57,554
back to that and perhaps there's more information

551
00:30:57,554 --> 00:30:59,955
that I haven't received or is it something

552
00:30:59,955 --> 00:31:09,759
that I need to receive more about? Do

553
00:31:09,759 --> 00:31:12,000
you happen to know the answers to any

554
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,679
of those questions as we sit here? I

555
00:31:15,679 --> 00:31:17,265
do not. I believe that they were just

556
00:31:17,265 --> 00:31:19,505
going to acquire all necessary permits through environmental

557
00:31:19,505 --> 00:31:22,145
health to verify the quality of the water

558
00:31:22,145 --> 00:31:25,265
and receive their permits necessary for campground operation.

559
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:35,520
Let's change the water subject slightly to firefighting.

560
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:44,304
So what is the closest station to this

561
00:31:44,304 --> 00:31:47,345
site? Do you know? I do not. The

562
00:31:47,345 --> 00:31:50,465
initial site that was proposed has been closed.

563
00:31:50,465 --> 00:31:53,665
Right. But the fire marshal provided comments that

564
00:31:53,665 --> 00:31:56,740
indicated that they would have to meet all

565
00:31:56,740 --> 00:31:59,940
international fire code in addition to the Cowlitz

566
00:31:59,940 --> 00:32:02,179
County Code on Wildland Fire Urban or the

567
00:32:02,179 --> 00:32:12,135
Wildland Urban Interface for Fire Protection. The fire

568
00:32:12,135 --> 00:32:16,375
district did not elaborate on those requirements. They

569
00:32:16,375 --> 00:32:21,895
did not, okay. And like projects elsewhere, it's

570
00:32:21,895 --> 00:32:25,815
often been obligated where there's some distance from

571
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:33,360
an available station to expect a water reservoir

572
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:39,040
that maintains an assured minimum quantity and an

573
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,935
assured capacity that is fire pressure, how much

574
00:32:43,935 --> 00:32:47,695
it can deliver, how quickly, etcetera. And so

575
00:32:47,695 --> 00:32:50,735
I don't see any discussion about that and

576
00:32:50,735 --> 00:32:52,735
I don't know what the district may have

577
00:32:52,735 --> 00:32:54,760
meant by its comments. So I'm a little

578
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:58,440
bit curious about all that. Again, we were

579
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,080
on a dead end road where some distance,

580
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:05,000
substantial distance from any fire department or fire

581
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,405
station, I should say. And we're in the

582
00:33:08,405 --> 00:33:13,125
woods with surrounding residences. Firefighting has been a

583
00:33:13,285 --> 00:33:16,005
concern expressed by a number of written comments.

584
00:33:16,325 --> 00:33:20,005
And so I share that concern. I'm curious

585
00:33:20,005 --> 00:33:22,289
as to some of the answers to those

586
00:33:22,289 --> 00:33:31,169
questions. There is a discussion of there being

587
00:33:31,169 --> 00:33:33,570
fire pits on the site. I think there's

588
00:33:33,570 --> 00:33:35,409
two proposed pits. Do you know where they

589
00:33:35,409 --> 00:33:44,655
are located? I do not. Okay. Again, I

590
00:33:44,655 --> 00:33:47,775
apologize for these questions being somewhat all over

591
00:33:47,775 --> 00:33:49,934
the place. There's no particular order to them,

592
00:33:49,934 --> 00:33:54,510
bear with me. As to the proposed septic

593
00:33:54,510 --> 00:34:00,190
system, the diagram that you have pulled up

594
00:34:00,350 --> 00:34:04,910
shows the primary and reserve drain fields in

595
00:34:04,910 --> 00:34:08,965
proximity to, well, all other development as well

596
00:34:08,965 --> 00:34:11,925
as to the flood plain and flood way.

597
00:34:13,205 --> 00:34:16,405
It doesn't, where would I look to find

598
00:34:16,565 --> 00:34:33,520
the tank? I don't see it. I believe

599
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,239
the Joma Design may be able to answer.

600
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:40,714
Okay, sorry. Here's my question. In a similar

601
00:34:40,714 --> 00:34:42,635
project I was asked to consider in Lewis

602
00:34:42,635 --> 00:34:48,234
County. In that instance, there was a public

603
00:34:49,755 --> 00:34:55,380
restroom facilities with tanks that were within or

604
00:34:55,380 --> 00:34:58,580
near floodway. And in that instance, it was

605
00:34:58,580 --> 00:35:01,220
required that those tanks be sealed so that

606
00:35:01,220 --> 00:35:04,980
they can't be surcharged by floodwaters and forced

607
00:35:04,980 --> 00:35:08,845
open just by the hydro, the power of

608
00:35:08,845 --> 00:35:12,605
water. And so again, I don't see any

609
00:35:12,605 --> 00:35:18,605
discussion here of wastewater system and its management

610
00:35:18,605 --> 00:35:24,260
to assure that floodwaters cannot invade and degrade

611
00:35:24,340 --> 00:35:27,460
that system. Do you happen to know any

612
00:35:27,460 --> 00:35:30,340
of the answers to that question? Yes, sorry,

613
00:35:30,340 --> 00:35:32,020
I did not elaborate in the staff report.

614
00:35:32,020 --> 00:35:35,300
16.25, I conditioned that they would follow all

615
00:35:35,994 --> 00:35:37,915
requirements of that. That is our floodplain management

616
00:35:37,915 --> 00:35:42,795
ordinance, which identifies that on-site sewage treatment facilities

617
00:35:43,195 --> 00:35:47,755
must be properly located or designed to avoid

618
00:35:47,755 --> 00:35:50,635
infiltration of floodwaters and discharge of waste into

619
00:35:50,635 --> 00:36:02,210
flood water. And that's wastewater. Let's turn to

620
00:36:02,210 --> 00:36:11,585
storm water. Briefly, if you could describe for

621
00:36:11,585 --> 00:36:17,025
me the stormwater plan, and again, the applicant

622
00:36:17,025 --> 00:36:20,700
undoubtedly can do that more fully, but to

623
00:36:20,700 --> 00:36:24,860
your understanding of the stormwater plan and particularly

624
00:36:26,300 --> 00:36:30,220
whether it is requiring stormwater for all existing

625
00:36:31,660 --> 00:36:35,795
improvements since we are converting their use, they're

626
00:36:35,795 --> 00:36:39,155
no longer exempt from storm water requirements. And

627
00:36:39,155 --> 00:36:41,395
so there needs to be a demonstration that

628
00:36:41,395 --> 00:36:47,315
whatever collective storm water system is receiving and

629
00:36:47,315 --> 00:36:51,299
treating not just the new stormwater, but all

630
00:36:51,299 --> 00:36:55,940
stormwater from the past and future. And I'm

631
00:36:55,940 --> 00:36:57,940
curious if you know that whether or not

632
00:36:57,940 --> 00:37:01,220
that's been addressed. I believe Public Works could

633
00:37:01,220 --> 00:37:04,275
address that. They manage the stormwater aspect, but

634
00:37:04,275 --> 00:37:06,115
I do know that the project would be

635
00:37:06,115 --> 00:37:08,675
viewed cumulatively, not just for the new proposed

636
00:37:08,675 --> 00:37:10,515
development and that the stormwater plan would have

637
00:37:10,515 --> 00:37:34,575
to address that. All right. One of the

638
00:37:34,575 --> 00:37:37,695
things I am obligated to do, or one

639
00:37:37,695 --> 00:37:40,415
of the findings I need to make with

640
00:37:40,415 --> 00:37:43,615
respect to the campground is that I find

641
00:37:43,615 --> 00:37:48,550
compatibility with surrounding uses. Uses. That's not required

642
00:37:48,550 --> 00:37:50,869
at the shoreline permits, but is required at

643
00:37:50,869 --> 00:37:53,510
the campground permit. And so I wanna talk

644
00:37:53,510 --> 00:37:59,670
about compatibility a little bit. In particular, I

645
00:37:59,670 --> 00:38:02,195
don't see a set of proposed rules for

646
00:38:02,195 --> 00:38:08,035
this campground. I take the staff report as

647
00:38:08,035 --> 00:38:11,555
suggesting that the applicant will be expected to

648
00:38:11,555 --> 00:38:15,510
establish rules, but I think there's a chicken

649
00:38:15,510 --> 00:38:17,350
and egg thing going on here. I think

650
00:38:17,350 --> 00:38:19,590
I need to see those rules. I don't

651
00:38:19,590 --> 00:38:21,750
think it's, I can leave that to anybody

652
00:38:21,750 --> 00:38:24,390
else. I think any rules for the use

653
00:38:24,390 --> 00:38:26,550
must come before me and I must decide

654
00:38:26,550 --> 00:38:30,915
if they're satisfactory. Otherwise I can't determine compatibility.

655
00:38:31,555 --> 00:38:34,115
So just as a heads up, I'm gonna

656
00:38:34,115 --> 00:38:36,994
need to see a proposed collective set of

657
00:38:36,994 --> 00:38:41,234
rules for operation to determine whether in fact,

658
00:38:42,194 --> 00:38:45,700
restricted that the project would in fact be

659
00:38:45,700 --> 00:38:49,220
compatible with its surrounding uses. And that might

660
00:38:49,220 --> 00:38:57,325
include active hours, quiet hours, noise limitations, restrictions

661
00:38:57,325 --> 00:39:06,445
on pets, restrictions on fireworks and firearms, any

662
00:39:06,445 --> 00:39:11,880
other restrictions that may be appropriate. And so

663
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:15,160
that collective set needs to be put together

664
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:18,440
and I need to examine it for its

665
00:39:18,599 --> 00:39:27,775
consistency. Let's turn to landscaping. I understand that

666
00:39:27,775 --> 00:39:31,935
the project relies on existing landscaping to the

667
00:39:31,935 --> 00:39:35,055
west, that being the applicant's remaining 10 acres.

668
00:39:35,055 --> 00:39:38,015
It's effectively a 10 acre park next to

669
00:39:38,015 --> 00:39:43,170
the site providing substantial vegetative buffering to properties

670
00:39:43,170 --> 00:39:45,650
to the west. Properties to the north are

671
00:39:45,650 --> 00:39:48,850
largely separated by county roads. And so we

672
00:39:48,850 --> 00:39:52,050
have a separation already, as well as the

673
00:39:52,050 --> 00:39:54,050
vegetation that lies to the north of the

674
00:39:54,050 --> 00:39:57,494
entrance driveway. When I am to the south,

675
00:39:57,494 --> 00:40:02,695
obviously we a natural buffer in the river.

676
00:40:03,175 --> 00:40:04,855
To the east is where I'm a little

677
00:40:04,855 --> 00:40:08,319
bit less certain as to the buffering. The

678
00:40:08,319 --> 00:40:11,040
applicant proposes to maintain a vegetative buffer on

679
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:15,359
its borders. And that's why we come back

680
00:40:15,359 --> 00:40:18,799
to this cabin to the east and it's

681
00:40:18,799 --> 00:40:22,945
screening from this project. And so I do

682
00:40:22,945 --> 00:40:26,945
certainly see extensive vegetative buffering along the Northeast

683
00:40:26,945 --> 00:40:30,465
Corner, but south of that buffering, I'm wondering

684
00:40:30,465 --> 00:40:34,799
what's intended to ensure that no part of

685
00:40:34,799 --> 00:40:37,839
this use or any of its guests wander

686
00:40:37,839 --> 00:40:42,000
into adjoining properties to the east. And so

687
00:40:42,240 --> 00:40:45,039
any thought given about that today? Yes, a

688
00:40:45,039 --> 00:40:47,775
condition of approval would be plantings and screening

689
00:40:47,775 --> 00:40:50,974
set up to provide protection to the Southeast

690
00:40:50,974 --> 00:40:57,855
Corner. Okay. And while a fence might in

691
00:40:57,855 --> 00:41:01,799
many instances be considered an appropriate buffer, we're

692
00:41:01,799 --> 00:41:05,319
in shoreline territory and fences would be inconsistent

693
00:41:05,319 --> 00:41:16,765
with shoreline restrictions. Mr. Kreitzert, would you maybe

694
00:41:16,765 --> 00:41:19,405
for the benefit as much for the public

695
00:41:19,405 --> 00:41:24,365
as for me, give me a quick summation

696
00:41:24,365 --> 00:41:29,279
of the mitigation plan for the impacts to

697
00:41:29,279 --> 00:41:32,720
primarily to wetland buffers, as well as to

698
00:41:32,720 --> 00:41:35,119
some extent as part of the conditional use,

699
00:41:35,119 --> 00:41:38,640
guess. Tell us a little bit more about

700
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:44,605
mitigation on-site to those impacts. Yes, of course.

701
00:41:44,605 --> 00:41:47,085
I believe Ashiko may be able to add

702
00:41:47,085 --> 00:41:50,445
additional information, but they were proposing to place

703
00:41:50,445 --> 00:41:54,800
signs and indicators to avoid wetland buffer in

704
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:57,040
addition to a replanting and mitigation plan to

705
00:41:57,040 --> 00:41:59,920
provide natural vegetation to offset any of the

706
00:41:59,920 --> 00:42:04,160
potential impacts to the wetland buffers that would

707
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:08,865
be created through development as proposed. Okay. And

708
00:42:08,865 --> 00:42:11,585
it's fortuitous that we have in front of

709
00:42:11,585 --> 00:42:16,865
us the aerial photo showing not only the

710
00:42:16,865 --> 00:42:23,030
existing conditions, but proposed changes To the southerly

711
00:42:23,030 --> 00:42:25,590
portion of the site, there's a lot of

712
00:42:25,670 --> 00:42:30,550
bright greenish yellow dots. Are those proposed mitigation

713
00:42:30,550 --> 00:42:37,165
plantings? Yes, I believe so. Okay. So the

714
00:42:37,165 --> 00:42:42,685
mitigation plan proposes to plant through that area

715
00:42:42,845 --> 00:42:47,485
to improve? My mistake, it's existing trees. Oh,

716
00:42:47,485 --> 00:42:50,579
those are existing trees. Okay. So the new

717
00:42:50,740 --> 00:42:54,420
vegetation or added vegetation for mitigation would be

718
00:42:54,420 --> 00:43:05,105
rare relative to those trees. The the hashed

719
00:43:05,105 --> 00:43:10,305
portion on the bottom portion of the project.

720
00:43:19,589 --> 00:43:23,990
A one to one wetland buffer enhancement on

721
00:43:23,990 --> 00:43:28,230
the southwest corner. Oh, okay. Alright. So it'd

722
00:43:28,230 --> 00:43:31,190
be southwest of those trees in the portion

723
00:43:31,190 --> 00:43:34,994
between the orange and blue lines? Yes. Okay.

724
00:43:36,194 --> 00:43:44,994
Strip all the way along. That's in addition

725
00:43:44,994 --> 00:43:47,795
to a strip along the ordinary high watermark

726
00:43:47,795 --> 00:43:53,260
for one one enhancement. Where is that? Along

727
00:43:53,260 --> 00:43:56,300
the southeast portion in between the maroon or

728
00:43:56,300 --> 00:43:59,900
red line and the blue line. Okay. Okay.

729
00:44:11,675 --> 00:44:16,670
At the request of the, I'm not sure

730
00:44:16,670 --> 00:44:19,309
if it was DNR or Forest Fish and

731
00:44:19,309 --> 00:44:21,869
Wildlife, think it was Fish and Wildlife, you

732
00:44:21,869 --> 00:44:26,670
imposed certain proposed language restricting access to the

733
00:44:26,670 --> 00:44:30,815
river during March to June in protection of

734
00:44:31,055 --> 00:44:40,815
salmonoid fry. But it's a discouragement. It's not

735
00:44:40,815 --> 00:44:44,015
an actual restriction on access to the river

736
00:44:44,015 --> 00:44:47,400
during that time. The proposed language is a

737
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:52,760
bit in between. It's not really doing anything

738
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,880
other than kind of finger wagging without actually

739
00:44:59,445 --> 00:45:02,725
guaranteeing that the river is kept in violet

740
00:45:02,725 --> 00:45:06,165
during that time. Any thoughts on, I mean,

741
00:45:06,165 --> 00:45:07,925
how does the county feel about that? Is

742
00:45:07,925 --> 00:45:10,885
it feel that's good enough? Does it have

743
00:45:10,885 --> 00:45:13,925
any thoughts about making sure that if the

744
00:45:13,925 --> 00:45:16,710
project is approved, that there'll be no net

745
00:45:16,710 --> 00:45:19,030
loss of the biological function of the river

746
00:45:19,030 --> 00:45:23,030
relative to salmonoid species. What does the county

747
00:45:23,030 --> 00:45:31,655
think? I believe as proposed, it meets the

748
00:45:31,735 --> 00:45:36,615
Callis County code for protection for the buffers

749
00:45:36,615 --> 00:45:41,975
and for the ecosystem. But that is a

750
00:45:41,975 --> 00:45:43,895
condition that we can revisit to further ensure

751
00:45:43,895 --> 00:45:47,849
that there is no, me try that in

752
00:45:47,849 --> 00:45:50,569
a less subtle way. If I were to

753
00:45:50,569 --> 00:45:55,050
approve this project ultimately after everything, and I

754
00:45:55,050 --> 00:45:57,450
insisted, I imposed a condition that there would

755
00:45:57,450 --> 00:46:00,414
be no river access during those months, How

756
00:46:00,414 --> 00:46:06,414
would the county respond to that? Think we'd

757
00:46:06,414 --> 00:46:08,015
like to hear, sorry, could I be sworn

758
00:46:08,015 --> 00:46:10,895
in? Yes. So you sworn, you swear to

759
00:46:10,895 --> 00:46:12,255
tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing

760
00:46:12,255 --> 00:46:14,655
but the truth. Yep, Adam Trimble, Planning Manager.

761
00:46:15,055 --> 00:46:19,800
And so again, if the applicant is accepting

762
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:22,840
of that condition, then that would be the

763
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:28,040
condition that the county recommends for approval. As

764
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:34,645
proposed with mitigation submitted, the applicant has prepared

765
00:46:35,125 --> 00:46:38,565
a plan that would keep that river intact

766
00:46:38,565 --> 00:46:42,005
during those months with signage and various other

767
00:46:42,005 --> 00:46:46,079
controls of their property. So the condition as

768
00:46:46,079 --> 00:46:50,480
written is our initial recommendation, but the applicant

769
00:46:50,559 --> 00:46:52,800
and the county may wish to agree that

770
00:46:53,359 --> 00:46:57,755
a more strict conditional approval is necessary. Well,

771
00:46:57,755 --> 00:46:59,915
that's not how, okay. The parties can talk

772
00:46:59,915 --> 00:47:03,115
about it and think about suggesting something. The

773
00:47:03,115 --> 00:47:04,955
question I was posing is if I say

774
00:47:04,955 --> 00:47:08,715
it, if I intend to do that, does

775
00:47:08,715 --> 00:47:10,715
the county have some strong opposition to my

776
00:47:10,715 --> 00:47:14,020
doing so and why? That was what I

777
00:47:14,020 --> 00:47:22,580
was trying to ask. The county's recommendation is

778
00:47:22,660 --> 00:47:27,125
in the staff report. The restriction and the

779
00:47:27,125 --> 00:47:29,765
amenity of this property is the river. So,

780
00:47:29,925 --> 00:47:31,605
you know, right now the position of the

781
00:47:31,605 --> 00:47:34,005
county is that the applicant can manage that

782
00:47:34,005 --> 00:47:36,565
access and control it and protect the river.

783
00:47:36,645 --> 00:47:53,700
Okay. I think we're about there, Mr. Kreitzer.

784
00:47:53,700 --> 00:48:03,275
Let me just double check. Those do complete

785
00:48:03,275 --> 00:48:05,434
the questions I have for county staff. And

786
00:48:05,434 --> 00:48:08,075
does that complete then the county's presentation? Yes,

787
00:48:08,075 --> 00:48:11,720
it does. We'll turn then to the applicant

788
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:18,600
and, oh, one last housekeeping matter. The county

789
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:22,040
was relying upon a PowerPoint presentation for its

790
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:25,495
testimony today. I wanna make that presentation an

791
00:48:25,495 --> 00:48:31,495
exhibit that becomes exhibit 100. And I wish

792
00:48:31,495 --> 00:48:34,615
a copy sent to me electronically following the

793
00:48:34,615 --> 00:48:46,550
hearing. So as to the applicant then, who

794
00:48:46,550 --> 00:48:49,475
am I to anticipate hearing from today? Good

795
00:48:49,475 --> 00:48:56,595
morning. And you are? Good morning, Mr. Hearing

796
00:48:56,595 --> 00:49:00,275
Examiner. My name is Byron Johlma with Johlma

797
00:49:00,275 --> 00:49:04,539
Design. And I'm here to my left is

798
00:49:04,539 --> 00:49:10,779
Andrea Aberle with Asheco. And how is Asheco

799
00:49:10,779 --> 00:49:15,260
spelled? A S H E C O. Okay,

800
00:49:15,260 --> 00:49:20,235
thank you. Are you anticipating that both of

801
00:49:20,235 --> 00:49:25,835
you will testify today? Well, I anticipate that

802
00:49:25,915 --> 00:49:29,210
Ms. Aberlewy will be responding to the questions

803
00:49:29,210 --> 00:49:33,609
regarding the environmental, the critical areas. And we

804
00:49:33,609 --> 00:49:37,609
also have in attendance virtually the traffic engineer

805
00:49:37,609 --> 00:49:49,085
as well. Mr. Chris Klimau. And how is

806
00:49:49,085 --> 00:49:53,005
his last name spelled? C L E M

807
00:49:53,005 --> 00:50:00,520
O W. Okay. So again, Mr. Joelma, this

808
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:03,240
is the applicant's opportunity to testify in response

809
00:50:03,240 --> 00:50:07,480
to the county's presentation, which is then my

810
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:10,475
first question is, does it wish to make

811
00:50:10,475 --> 00:50:14,075
the presentation and who or how many different

812
00:50:14,075 --> 00:50:17,995
people will be making that presentation? Yes, sir.

813
00:50:17,995 --> 00:50:20,475
So we would just like to, we'll keep

814
00:50:20,475 --> 00:50:22,555
our comments brief. We would like to introduce

815
00:50:22,555 --> 00:50:26,210
the project briefly and then would be. Which

816
00:50:26,210 --> 00:50:28,210
is all great. I anticipate that. I just

817
00:50:28,210 --> 00:50:29,650
need to know who is doing it to

818
00:50:29,650 --> 00:50:33,410
know who to swear in as witnesses. Roger

819
00:50:33,410 --> 00:50:39,170
that, yeah. So myself, Byron Joma and Andrea

820
00:50:39,170 --> 00:50:46,635
Aberle, then then possibly Considering the, yes, Any

821
00:50:46,715 --> 00:50:48,715
of the comments related to the traffic concern,

822
00:50:48,715 --> 00:50:51,675
Mr. Cleemaw will Okay. As well. So as

823
00:50:51,675 --> 00:50:54,234
to you and Ms. Aberle, let's just have

824
00:50:54,234 --> 00:50:56,400
you collectively sworn, do the two of you

825
00:50:56,400 --> 00:50:58,160
swear or affirm to tell the truth, the

826
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:00,079
whole truth and nothing but the truth? I

827
00:51:00,079 --> 00:51:03,359
do. All right. It's yours to proceed as

828
00:51:03,359 --> 00:51:08,480
you prefer. So go ahead. Yes, good morning,

829
00:51:08,745 --> 00:51:12,585
Mr. Arias Amater, members of staff and those

830
00:51:12,585 --> 00:51:15,385
public who are in attendance. My name is

831
00:51:15,385 --> 00:51:19,305
Byron Johlman with Johlman Design and I am

832
00:51:19,305 --> 00:51:24,170
the project engineer of record. And as mentioned,

833
00:51:24,170 --> 00:51:29,130
I also in attendance are the biologist Andrea

834
00:51:29,130 --> 00:51:35,205
Aberle and the traffic engineer Chris Deverclimao. And

835
00:51:35,285 --> 00:51:38,725
yeah, like I said, I'll keep my comments

836
00:51:38,725 --> 00:51:42,805
brief here. We have no objections to the

837
00:51:42,885 --> 00:51:46,980
current conditions outlined in the staff report. I

838
00:51:46,980 --> 00:51:50,500
can answer a couple of the questions that

839
00:51:50,500 --> 00:51:53,940
you had regarding the fire pit and the

840
00:51:53,940 --> 00:51:56,500
well as well. I wanna have a little

841
00:51:56,500 --> 00:52:02,195
clarification there. I also understand that there is,

842
00:52:02,994 --> 00:52:07,634
and there's been many concerns brought forward by

843
00:52:07,634 --> 00:52:12,880
the neighbors and in a perfect world, the

844
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:15,760
reports and studies and plans that we prepared

845
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:22,480
would satisfy those concerns. However, we also take

846
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:25,840
them very seriously. The comments, particularly in the

847
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:30,795
neighbor, those that live nearby, this is their

848
00:52:30,795 --> 00:52:34,715
neighborhood. We acknowledge and respect that. And I

849
00:52:34,715 --> 00:52:38,075
also speak for the owner as well. And

850
00:52:38,315 --> 00:52:41,755
we will be paying close attention to the

851
00:52:41,755 --> 00:52:45,990
comments made. We do stand by the design,

852
00:52:46,710 --> 00:52:49,829
the reports. Stand by the project has been

853
00:52:50,630 --> 00:52:53,509
well vetted. We believe the staff has done

854
00:52:53,509 --> 00:52:57,775
an outstanding job of ensuring that the project

855
00:52:58,335 --> 00:53:06,495
complies with the applicable code. And as I

856
00:53:06,495 --> 00:53:10,015
said, we understand there's several concerns with the

857
00:53:10,015 --> 00:53:15,170
neighbor and with the neighbors. And although we

858
00:53:15,170 --> 00:53:16,609
may not be able to answer all of

859
00:53:16,609 --> 00:53:18,530
those or address them here today, we're gonna

860
00:53:18,530 --> 00:53:21,410
do our best. And I'll also be available

861
00:53:21,810 --> 00:53:26,065
afterward, after the hearing, if anybody wants to

862
00:53:26,065 --> 00:53:28,705
speak to me personally, and I will bring

863
00:53:28,705 --> 00:53:33,345
those concerns and ideas forward or pass them

864
00:53:33,345 --> 00:53:38,065
forward to the owner. And with that, if

865
00:53:38,430 --> 00:53:42,910
you, oh yeah, I'll clarify. So the fire

866
00:53:42,910 --> 00:53:47,630
pits will be propane. And at this juncture,

867
00:53:47,630 --> 00:53:51,565
I don't believe we show a specific location

868
00:53:51,565 --> 00:53:53,645
on the plans. Those will be determined, but

869
00:53:53,645 --> 00:53:57,325
they'll be in compliance with all applicable building

870
00:53:57,325 --> 00:54:00,845
and fire code. And then there is a

871
00:54:00,845 --> 00:54:03,405
new well proposed and it is shown on

872
00:54:03,405 --> 00:54:09,370
the plans, I believe in the, is that

873
00:54:09,370 --> 00:54:12,010
in the Northeast Corner? Yes, sir. That's correct.

874
00:54:12,010 --> 00:54:14,730
The Wellhead Radius. Yes, sir. That's correct. So

875
00:54:14,730 --> 00:54:20,365
a new well will be installed prior to

876
00:54:20,365 --> 00:54:24,205
occupancy. But it's proposed as an exempt well?

877
00:54:28,204 --> 00:54:31,164
It's proposed as falling within the 5,000 gallon.

878
00:54:31,164 --> 00:54:33,085
Oh yes, sir. That is correct. Yes, sir.

879
00:54:33,180 --> 00:54:42,140
Yep. Have you had any, oh, I'm sorry.

880
00:54:42,300 --> 00:54:44,619
Were you, you have any more to say

881
00:54:44,619 --> 00:54:48,494
or? No, Nope. Entertain any questions? Have you

882
00:54:48,494 --> 00:54:52,095
had any conversations with public health about the

883
00:54:52,095 --> 00:54:56,095
well and its requirements today? Personally, I have

884
00:54:56,095 --> 00:54:58,255
not, my staff has, and we've also been

885
00:54:58,255 --> 00:55:06,950
working with a well driller. And those discussions

886
00:55:06,950 --> 00:55:09,750
did come up with regard to the need

887
00:55:09,750 --> 00:55:12,790
for a Class B or a community well

888
00:55:13,270 --> 00:55:16,505
system and we would certainly not object if

889
00:55:16,505 --> 00:55:18,825
it was found that it fell under those

890
00:55:18,825 --> 00:55:23,545
provisions. However, we are, like I said, we

891
00:55:23,545 --> 00:55:28,265
stand by the opinion or our assessment that

892
00:55:28,265 --> 00:55:46,275
it does not meet those requirements. Give me

893
00:55:46,275 --> 00:55:54,035
a second, Mr. Joelma. As the engineer, you

894
00:55:54,035 --> 00:55:56,035
would be the one more familiar with it,

895
00:55:56,035 --> 00:56:01,510
stormwater management. And to where, what stage are

896
00:56:01,510 --> 00:56:06,630
you in stormwater management design? This would be

897
00:56:06,630 --> 00:56:10,645
a preliminary stormwater design. However, typically at this

898
00:56:10,645 --> 00:56:14,484
stage, we, because of the, it is a

899
00:56:14,484 --> 00:56:16,404
critical component that we put a lot of

900
00:56:16,404 --> 00:56:18,404
effort into the design to ensure that it's

901
00:56:18,404 --> 00:56:23,605
feasible. We are proposing low impact development BMPs,

902
00:56:24,510 --> 00:56:29,390
and Kalama River is exempt from the flow

903
00:56:29,390 --> 00:56:34,750
control standards, but all runoff, including runoff from

904
00:56:34,750 --> 00:56:40,105
existing impervious or pollution generating services or surfaces

905
00:56:40,105 --> 00:56:43,945
that will mingle with storm water from pollution

906
00:56:43,945 --> 00:56:48,585
generating services will be treated and managed in

907
00:56:48,585 --> 00:56:53,440
accordance with the stormwater management manual for Western

908
00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:58,640
Washington. And how will it be resolved? Meaning

909
00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:02,559
it will infiltrate, will it anticipate to drain

910
00:57:02,559 --> 00:57:05,845
to some sort of retention facility? What is

911
00:57:05,845 --> 00:57:11,605
proposed? What's currently proposed is a combination of

912
00:57:11,684 --> 00:57:16,964
splash blocks where it will disperse through vegetated

913
00:57:19,130 --> 00:57:25,289
vegetated soils that may be amended as needed

914
00:57:25,289 --> 00:57:29,930
to meet the treatment standard and sheet flow

915
00:57:29,930 --> 00:57:33,635
dispersion. As mentioned, these are low impact development

916
00:57:33,635 --> 00:57:37,075
principles where the storm water is managed as

917
00:57:37,075 --> 00:57:40,835
close as possible to the point where it

918
00:57:40,835 --> 00:57:43,795
falls. We are not proposing any detention. As

919
00:57:43,795 --> 00:57:48,080
mentioned previously, the Glamour River at this location

920
00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:52,480
is exempt from the flow control standards. So

921
00:57:52,480 --> 00:58:08,185
therefore, detention is not required. To date, has

922
00:58:08,185 --> 00:58:11,785
the applicant begun preparation of a set of

923
00:58:11,785 --> 00:58:19,650
rules of operation? To my knowledge, no. However,

924
00:58:19,650 --> 00:58:23,250
I will pass that question on to the

925
00:58:24,290 --> 00:58:27,330
owner. I would be very surprised if that

926
00:58:27,330 --> 00:58:33,175
has not at least been is not in

927
00:58:33,175 --> 00:58:35,575
some type of draft form or isn't, but

928
00:58:35,575 --> 00:58:38,455
we will, yeah, we will pass that along

929
00:58:38,455 --> 00:58:41,470
to and you're talking about just a set

930
00:58:41,470 --> 00:58:44,190
of rules, not really necessarily like CCNRs, but

931
00:58:44,190 --> 00:58:47,230
more of just the operations and the rules

932
00:58:47,230 --> 00:58:50,430
of the campground. CCNRs would not apply, but

933
00:58:50,590 --> 00:58:52,670
a set of rules would. Right, yeah. And

934
00:58:52,670 --> 00:59:03,865
that's what I'm interested in. Okay. Okay. I

935
00:59:03,865 --> 00:59:08,880
don't have any other questions, Mr. Joma. And

936
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:17,360
so did, Ms. Eberle, were you going to

937
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:21,445
speak as well? Mr. Eberle, front of me,

938
00:59:21,765 --> 00:59:25,765
one topic that was brought up was regarding

939
00:59:25,765 --> 00:59:29,045
the septic tanks and your concern that they

940
00:59:29,045 --> 00:59:31,685
are not shown on the plans. Oh yes.

941
00:59:32,040 --> 00:59:34,520
If not, yeah, took another look. I do

942
00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:37,320
not see them shown a lot of times.

943
00:59:38,200 --> 00:59:42,120
I mean, we're relying on the septic designer

944
00:59:42,120 --> 00:59:44,440
and at this phase, they would typically be

945
00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:47,395
more of a, probably a schematic layout anyway.

946
00:59:47,395 --> 00:59:51,635
However, we've, at the time of construction, as

947
00:59:51,635 --> 00:59:54,915
mentioned and in the conditions of approval, they

948
00:59:55,474 --> 00:59:57,635
will be installed either outside of the flood

949
00:59:57,635 --> 01:00:00,410
plain where they could be susceptible to inundation

950
01:00:00,410 --> 01:00:04,490
with water, or if necessary to install them,

951
01:00:04,490 --> 01:00:10,250
they will be constructed with the appropriate features

952
01:00:10,250 --> 01:00:19,265
to prevent the infiltration of surface water. Okay,

953
01:00:19,265 --> 01:00:21,345
thank you. Thank you. And so again, did

954
01:00:21,345 --> 01:00:27,265
you anticipate Ms. Aberleaf's testimony as well? I

955
01:00:27,265 --> 01:00:29,090
can go over a few elements. I think

956
01:00:29,090 --> 01:00:34,770
everything's been covered. It's up to you. Or

957
01:00:34,770 --> 01:00:37,730
do you wanna just respond? I'll just clarify.

958
01:00:38,130 --> 01:00:43,465
Sandra, Avery Averly Ashikosolutions. As far as the

959
01:00:43,465 --> 01:00:49,305
critical areas go, there's the type S water,

960
01:00:49,305 --> 01:00:54,585
the shoreline, obviously the Clam River. Depicted on

961
01:00:54,585 --> 01:00:58,920
there that we're most concerned about is the

962
01:00:59,160 --> 01:01:02,840
shoreline buffer and setback, which the shoreline buffer

963
01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:05,240
is the first 150 feet from Ordinary High,

964
01:01:05,240 --> 01:01:07,480
and then there's additional 10 foot building setback.

965
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:09,885
So the combined buffer and setback is one

966
01:01:09,885 --> 01:01:13,805
sixty. And that's the line that was held

967
01:01:13,805 --> 01:01:18,205
by all new development regarding the project as

968
01:01:18,205 --> 01:01:24,580
required by the Shoreline master plan. There is

969
01:01:24,580 --> 01:01:27,619
a 200 foot offset depicted for the traditional.

970
01:01:27,619 --> 01:01:28,980
But in this case, the full one hundred

971
01:01:28,980 --> 01:01:32,340
year floodplain is the full extent. The shoreline

972
01:01:32,500 --> 01:01:35,380
extends to the full outer limit of the

973
01:01:35,380 --> 01:01:41,715
one hundred year floodplain. The impacts that we

974
01:01:41,715 --> 01:01:44,515
are required to calculate are for within that

975
01:01:44,515 --> 01:01:49,475
inner 160 and or the wetland buffer that

976
01:01:49,475 --> 01:01:51,315
is 300 feet in this case. There was

977
01:01:51,315 --> 01:01:54,980
not a mapped wetland on-site, but we delineated

978
01:01:54,980 --> 01:01:58,580
one for riverine wetland we found along the

979
01:01:58,580 --> 01:02:02,740
shoreline that had a 300 foot buffer so

980
01:02:02,740 --> 01:02:05,220
on the other the site plan from our

981
01:02:05,220 --> 01:02:07,994
critical areas report mitigation plan The aerial view

982
01:02:07,994 --> 01:02:12,795
of that one. Impacts the buffer impacts proposed

983
01:02:12,954 --> 01:02:16,714
are in the light aqua solid shading, which

984
01:02:16,714 --> 01:02:21,210
consists of the primary septic, the new parking,

985
01:02:21,210 --> 01:02:24,250
and required fire turn turnaround around the existing

986
01:02:24,250 --> 01:02:28,090
structure, a deck, and a patio. But those

987
01:02:28,090 --> 01:02:34,585
all are outside the one sixty shoreline buffer

988
01:02:34,585 --> 01:02:37,705
and setback as required by the shoreline master

989
01:02:37,705 --> 01:02:42,505
plan. Anything outside that requires is still calculated

990
01:02:42,505 --> 01:02:45,625
as an impact and requires mitigation. But as

991
01:02:45,625 --> 01:02:50,030
far as any new development, it's outside that

992
01:02:50,030 --> 01:02:54,430
inner restricted area. To offset those impacts, there's

993
01:02:54,430 --> 01:02:58,350
shoreline buffer enhancement proposed within the aqua plus

994
01:02:58,350 --> 01:03:02,990
hatched area. So two areas along the south.

995
01:03:03,684 --> 01:03:06,005
And generally, we locate those in the area

996
01:03:06,005 --> 01:03:08,885
to extend where there's any existing tree line.

997
01:03:11,204 --> 01:03:15,285
And in this case, fairly linear to provide

998
01:03:15,285 --> 01:03:18,540
a buffer between the project and the shoreline.

999
01:03:22,859 --> 01:03:27,099
And just to clarify, they are using historic

1000
01:03:29,260 --> 01:03:36,125
footprints from structures. There's no new building proposed

1001
01:03:36,125 --> 01:03:38,525
within the floodplain or shoreline as far as

1002
01:03:38,525 --> 01:03:44,285
the structure with the exception of the flat

1003
01:03:44,285 --> 01:03:50,010
surfaces, the parking, which I only say that

1004
01:03:50,010 --> 01:03:52,890
because in shorelines, if you build up, generally

1005
01:03:52,890 --> 01:03:55,210
take away from the volume of the flood

1006
01:03:55,210 --> 01:03:56,730
plains you have to excavate. But in this

1007
01:03:56,730 --> 01:03:58,010
case, we don't need to do that. It's

1008
01:03:58,010 --> 01:04:00,704
not a requirement. So a couple of questions,

1009
01:04:00,704 --> 01:04:03,825
Ms. Iberly. The mitigation plan is a one

1010
01:04:03,825 --> 01:04:06,625
to one ratio. Correct. I don't know if

1011
01:04:06,625 --> 01:04:13,505
there is any overarching required ratio, but ratios

1012
01:04:13,505 --> 01:04:17,620
vary greatly. Oftentimes they can be no less

1013
01:04:17,620 --> 01:04:19,860
than one to one to achieve no net

1014
01:04:19,860 --> 01:04:23,220
loss, but oftentimes they're expected to be greater

1015
01:04:23,220 --> 01:04:25,620
than one to one depending on the circumstances

1016
01:04:25,620 --> 01:04:28,475
and the imposition. In this case, why do

1017
01:04:28,475 --> 01:04:29,915
you feel the one to one ratio is

1018
01:04:29,915 --> 01:04:33,435
appropriate? One to one is standard when it's

1019
01:04:33,435 --> 01:04:38,075
an impact of herbaceous or grass vegetated area

1020
01:04:38,075 --> 01:04:40,315
in the outer portion of the buffer, which

1021
01:04:40,315 --> 01:04:45,940
it is. No significant vegetation, trees, shrubs are

1022
01:04:46,260 --> 01:04:50,100
proposed for removal. That's the one to one

1023
01:04:50,100 --> 01:04:53,220
is generally accepted ratio. Otherwise, you're correct. It

1024
01:04:53,220 --> 01:04:54,660
can be greater than that if you are

1025
01:04:54,660 --> 01:04:57,625
impacting more significant habitat or in the inner

1026
01:04:57,625 --> 01:04:59,865
portion of the buffer. And then this is

1027
01:04:59,865 --> 01:05:01,305
a question more for the benefit of the

1028
01:05:01,305 --> 01:05:05,065
Department of Ecology. Why the need for new

1029
01:05:05,065 --> 01:05:10,740
parking within the expanded shoreline jurisdiction, hence the

1030
01:05:10,740 --> 01:05:18,900
conditional use permit. We did utilize the existing

1031
01:05:19,140 --> 01:05:23,300
impervious surface to the full extent practicable. That's

1032
01:05:23,300 --> 01:05:25,915
my understanding that new parking was a requirement

1033
01:05:25,915 --> 01:05:29,675
to meet the design criteria under code. Okay.

1034
01:05:31,115 --> 01:05:33,835
Let me paraphrase, which is a way of

1035
01:05:33,835 --> 01:05:38,250
you telling me if I'm following closely that

1036
01:05:38,490 --> 01:05:42,890
to meet other code requirements, the facility needs

1037
01:05:42,890 --> 01:05:47,770
more parking. And the only place based on

1038
01:05:47,770 --> 01:05:53,495
topography and existing buildings and environmental restrictions is

1039
01:05:53,495 --> 01:05:56,695
the proposed area of additional parking. Am I

1040
01:05:56,695 --> 01:06:02,695
summarizing your position correctly? Correct. Okay. All right.

1041
01:06:04,215 --> 01:06:09,170
Okay. And one other comment, I guess, I'll

1042
01:06:09,170 --> 01:06:11,970
make. I have met with Fish and Wildlife

1043
01:06:11,970 --> 01:06:14,690
and Department of Ecology staff on-site, got the

1044
01:06:14,690 --> 01:06:20,369
recommendations, and they didn't have any other outstanding

1045
01:06:22,145 --> 01:06:27,744
comments that weren't implemented into the project. Oh,

1046
01:06:27,744 --> 01:06:29,744
and as far as the trail use, we

1047
01:06:29,744 --> 01:06:32,865
added that in and the signage to meet

1048
01:06:32,865 --> 01:06:39,079
Fish and Wildlife's recommendation. And as far as

1049
01:06:39,079 --> 01:06:42,680
the time frame you're concerned about March through

1050
01:06:42,680 --> 01:06:45,000
June that would be posted on signage, it's

1051
01:06:45,000 --> 01:06:46,520
my understanding there wouldn't be a lot of

1052
01:06:46,520 --> 01:06:50,265
use, very, very minimal if any of the

1053
01:06:50,265 --> 01:06:52,345
site during that time, but that's up for

1054
01:06:53,945 --> 01:06:57,305
the applicant to provide more insight on possibly.

1055
01:06:58,985 --> 01:07:04,390
K. Anything else? That's all I have. And

1056
01:07:05,510 --> 01:07:07,350
you are speaking on behalf of the applicant.

1057
01:07:07,350 --> 01:07:10,470
The applicant isn't speaking separately, am I correct?

1058
01:07:13,270 --> 01:07:15,885
Say again. The two of you are here

1059
01:07:15,885 --> 01:07:18,365
on behalf of the applicant. The applicant isn't

1060
01:07:18,525 --> 01:07:24,525
presenting separately, correct? Correct, affirmative. I also did

1061
01:07:24,525 --> 01:07:27,565
wanna, yeah, I did have a quick text

1062
01:07:27,565 --> 01:07:34,990
exchange with one of the owners representatives and

1063
01:07:35,870 --> 01:07:39,550
they said that there is a draft set

1064
01:07:39,550 --> 01:07:43,710
of operating rules and we will be paying

1065
01:07:43,710 --> 01:07:46,305
close attention to the concerns here and if

1066
01:07:46,305 --> 01:07:51,665
necessary, rules will be amended as needed and

1067
01:07:51,744 --> 01:07:55,665
presented to you for review, Mr. Hearing Examiner.

1068
01:07:59,670 --> 01:08:02,150
Do you wish to present the testimony of

1069
01:08:02,150 --> 01:08:06,470
your traffic engineer as well? At this juncture,

1070
01:08:06,470 --> 01:08:10,470
I will stand by for and have him

1071
01:08:10,470 --> 01:08:13,765
respond as needed to the public comments. I

1072
01:08:16,085 --> 01:08:18,484
think that would be a more efficient use

1073
01:08:18,484 --> 01:08:23,444
of everyone's time. Okay. So we've heard from

1074
01:08:23,444 --> 01:08:26,510
county staff, we've heard from the applicant. Now

1075
01:08:26,510 --> 01:08:28,270
we come to the third phase of today's

1076
01:08:28,270 --> 01:08:31,630
hearing, which is the public testimony. And so

1077
01:08:34,510 --> 01:08:37,470
Mr. Kreitzer or Mr. Trimble, someone have a

1078
01:08:37,470 --> 01:08:39,630
sheet of those who might like to be

1079
01:08:39,630 --> 01:08:52,704
heard? Thank you. So as I said before,

1080
01:08:52,944 --> 01:08:55,840
this sheet is not binding in any way,

1081
01:08:55,840 --> 01:08:58,479
one way or another. If you signed up,

1082
01:08:58,479 --> 01:09:02,880
but then no longer interested, you can just

1083
01:09:02,880 --> 01:09:05,680
let me know. You're not obligated to follow

1084
01:09:05,680 --> 01:09:07,520
through. If you didn't sign up, but what

1085
01:09:07,520 --> 01:09:09,200
you would like now to be heard after

1086
01:09:09,200 --> 01:09:12,375
you heard other things, you can let me

1087
01:09:12,375 --> 01:09:15,814
know. There's nothing fixed about this sheet as

1088
01:09:15,814 --> 01:09:19,415
we get started with it. And in advance,

1089
01:09:19,415 --> 01:09:23,340
I apologize for the mispronounced the issue of

1090
01:09:23,340 --> 01:09:25,580
anyone's name. I think with a name like

1091
01:09:25,580 --> 01:09:28,300
Scheipmeier, I would be sensitive to getting names

1092
01:09:28,300 --> 01:09:31,660
correct, but I understand also how it doesn't

1093
01:09:31,660 --> 01:09:34,380
work very well sometimes. And so just forgive

1094
01:09:34,380 --> 01:09:36,780
me in advance if I do injustice to

1095
01:09:36,780 --> 01:09:39,684
your name. So the first name I have

1096
01:09:40,325 --> 01:09:44,404
on the sheet is Jeff, is it Bottart?

1097
01:09:45,125 --> 01:09:47,845
Yeah, I think your name's Jeff. Yeah, I

1098
01:09:47,845 --> 01:09:50,609
get it. It may take me longer than

1099
01:09:50,609 --> 01:09:53,649
five minutes. I just have history. I've been

1100
01:09:53,649 --> 01:09:55,969
out there sixty Thank you, I'll come back

1101
01:09:55,969 --> 01:10:00,770
to you. There must be a sound system

1102
01:10:00,770 --> 01:10:03,775
in here that's picking up everybody without All

1103
01:10:03,775 --> 01:10:06,255
of the mics are hot. And there must

1104
01:10:06,255 --> 01:10:08,415
be mics that are picking up the audience

1105
01:10:08,415 --> 01:10:13,215
as well. The audience is invited to speak

1106
01:10:13,215 --> 01:10:15,660
here. Well, know, but they seem to be

1107
01:10:15,660 --> 01:10:18,140
coming in quite well, even when they sit

1108
01:10:18,140 --> 01:10:20,940
at their chairs is, but you would still

1109
01:10:20,940 --> 01:10:23,100
prefer that they come to the table. Okay.

1110
01:10:23,340 --> 01:10:28,620
All right. Yeah, it's a bit eerie or

1111
01:10:29,340 --> 01:10:32,255
unsettling how much is being picked up by

1112
01:10:32,255 --> 01:10:35,455
these microphones. This one, so I'm maybe we

1113
01:10:35,455 --> 01:10:38,335
could. Yeah, we will ask people to come

1114
01:10:38,335 --> 01:10:41,775
to the microphone to Mr. Kreutzer's right at

1115
01:10:41,775 --> 01:10:44,750
the open table. So the next is Michael

1116
01:10:44,750 --> 01:10:54,110
Grimes. Mr. Grimes. I'm not flu y'all well.

1117
01:10:58,414 --> 01:11:01,135
Morning, miss Thank you, mister Hearing, examiner. Let's

1118
01:11:01,135 --> 01:11:03,215
have you sworn. Do you swear or affirm

1119
01:11:03,215 --> 01:11:04,574
to tell the truth? The whole truth and

1120
01:11:04,574 --> 01:11:06,335
nothing but the truth. I do, sir. Go

1121
01:11:06,335 --> 01:11:10,255
ahead. Lived up there for twenty five years

1122
01:11:10,255 --> 01:11:12,810
and to say that road is safe and

1123
01:11:12,810 --> 01:11:16,010
it'll all be high fine and dandy is

1124
01:11:17,290 --> 01:11:22,570
misconstrued at best. I've seen no evacuation plan.

1125
01:11:23,210 --> 01:11:24,970
We have a lot of slides on that

1126
01:11:24,970 --> 01:11:27,895
road. We have a lot of trees across

1127
01:11:27,895 --> 01:11:31,095
the road. And the number one concern since

1128
01:11:31,095 --> 01:11:33,735
I've lived there for twenty five years is

1129
01:11:33,735 --> 01:11:39,815
fire damage. We have nice evening wind that'll

1130
01:11:39,815 --> 01:11:43,310
blow 10 to 15 miles an hour. It's

1131
01:11:43,310 --> 01:11:45,630
a one way in, one way out road.

1132
01:11:46,030 --> 01:11:47,230
If you don't know how to get out

1133
01:11:47,230 --> 01:11:48,750
of, how you going to get all those

1134
01:11:48,750 --> 01:11:53,310
people out of that bottom area in RVs

1135
01:11:53,310 --> 01:11:56,555
and whatever else they drove in and everybody

1136
01:11:56,555 --> 01:11:58,715
else is trying to get off that mountain

1137
01:11:59,675 --> 01:12:03,195
without there being a real problem. What happens

1138
01:12:03,195 --> 01:12:05,755
if there are people there? We get snow

1139
01:12:05,755 --> 01:12:09,700
at 18 inches of snow in April. What

1140
01:12:09,700 --> 01:12:11,700
happens when it snows and we have some

1141
01:12:11,700 --> 01:12:14,740
kind of problem? The only way is a

1142
01:12:14,740 --> 01:12:18,660
Weyerhaeuser will open up a travel corridor and

1143
01:12:18,660 --> 01:12:20,340
you're not getting an RV up it. I

1144
01:12:20,340 --> 01:12:22,824
can tell you that now. It's all a

1145
01:12:22,824 --> 01:12:25,065
four wheel drive can do sometimes to get

1146
01:12:25,065 --> 01:12:28,905
up that road. The intersection is got about

1147
01:12:28,905 --> 01:12:32,344
100 feet of visibility. You get an 80

1148
01:12:32,344 --> 01:12:35,820
pound log truck coming down that road. With

1149
01:12:35,820 --> 01:12:38,620
80 feet of visibility before an RV pulls

1150
01:12:38,620 --> 01:12:41,500
out, you're gonna have an accident. It's not

1151
01:12:41,500 --> 01:12:43,980
a question of if it's gonna happen, it's

1152
01:12:43,980 --> 01:12:46,860
gonna be when it happens. They don't have

1153
01:12:46,860 --> 01:12:51,315
the stopping ability at that range. Also, we

1154
01:12:51,315 --> 01:12:53,875
had an RV come out of there. Nice

1155
01:12:53,875 --> 01:12:56,035
silver one. It drove 18 miles an hour

1156
01:12:56,035 --> 01:12:58,275
down that road all the way to the

1157
01:12:58,275 --> 01:13:05,330
freeway. The congestion, you're gonna have people that

1158
01:13:05,330 --> 01:13:07,889
have never driven that road. It's a small,

1159
01:13:07,889 --> 01:13:11,090
narrow, winding road with heavy equipment, dump trucks,

1160
01:13:11,090 --> 01:13:14,929
log trucks, log cutting equipment that they'll have

1161
01:13:14,929 --> 01:13:18,345
to negotiate and deal with. What about all

1162
01:13:18,345 --> 01:13:20,185
the people that are gonna maybe go wanna

1163
01:13:20,185 --> 01:13:25,065
take a bicycle ride up there? Extremely dangerous.

1164
01:13:25,705 --> 01:13:28,185
The water safety, I've heard people address the

1165
01:13:28,185 --> 01:13:32,160
war runoff. What about the migratory birds? The

1166
01:13:32,160 --> 01:13:36,000
comb rats, the eagles, and everything else that

1167
01:13:36,000 --> 01:13:39,680
lives down there. I've sat across and hunted

1168
01:13:39,680 --> 01:13:43,455
that entire mountain system across from them. There's

1169
01:13:43,455 --> 01:13:46,655
all kinds of animals that use that crossing

1170
01:13:46,655 --> 01:13:48,495
right there because of the way it's all

1171
01:13:48,495 --> 01:13:56,080
configured. The quietness. What about all the racket

1172
01:13:56,080 --> 01:13:59,120
that's gonna come with this? What happens when

1173
01:13:59,120 --> 01:14:03,120
something does happen? You think mister Irish is

1174
01:14:03,120 --> 01:14:05,360
gonna care because he's not gonna be here.

1175
01:14:06,320 --> 01:14:08,480
It'll just be us like it is in

1176
01:14:08,480 --> 01:14:11,525
every other small town across this country. It'll

1177
01:14:11,525 --> 01:14:13,684
be left up to us to deal with.

1178
01:14:14,244 --> 01:14:17,045
County looks at it from the money, he

1179
01:14:17,045 --> 01:14:19,364
looks at it from the money, and we're

1180
01:14:19,364 --> 01:14:22,645
just gonna be left holding the bag. Thank

1181
01:14:22,645 --> 01:14:41,145
you. Thank you. Tiffany Takawa. Morning. Hi, this

1182
01:14:41,145 --> 01:14:44,425
frustrates me in that, can I have you

1183
01:14:44,425 --> 01:14:48,025
move that over? Absolutely. So we can have

1184
01:14:48,025 --> 01:14:50,985
a visual with each other and all the

1185
01:14:50,985 --> 01:14:53,440
witnesses. This is, this room is driving me

1186
01:14:53,440 --> 01:14:59,120
crazy. And sorry, let's get you sworn. You

1187
01:14:59,120 --> 01:15:00,640
swear our firm to tell the truth, the

1188
01:15:00,640 --> 01:15:02,240
whole truth and nothing but the truth. I

1189
01:15:02,240 --> 01:15:05,805
do. Go ahead. So I'm not necessarily for

1190
01:15:05,805 --> 01:15:08,445
or against, but I am, we are one

1191
01:15:08,445 --> 01:15:10,525
of the neighbors that is closest. We're the

1192
01:15:10,525 --> 01:15:15,005
first house on Greenwood. And some of my

1193
01:15:15,005 --> 01:15:17,005
concerns that were not in my letter that

1194
01:15:17,005 --> 01:15:20,350
I thought of afterwards are would any campers

1195
01:15:20,350 --> 01:15:26,350
be allowed to live there permanently? And if

1196
01:15:26,590 --> 01:15:31,230
there's like a campground manager, would those persons

1197
01:15:31,230 --> 01:15:34,315
or people be there permanently or only when

1198
01:15:34,315 --> 01:15:38,795
there's an event? Is there a limit to

1199
01:15:38,795 --> 01:15:42,875
total number of guests? Say, if they're not

1200
01:15:42,875 --> 01:15:47,300
expecting any events between what did they say

1201
01:15:47,300 --> 01:15:49,380
March and June, what if someone wants a

1202
01:15:49,380 --> 01:15:53,699
May wedding with 100 people? Just thinking about

1203
01:15:53,699 --> 01:15:56,179
that and the traffic that could come from

1204
01:15:56,179 --> 01:16:00,225
that, there's Even only a certain number of

1205
01:16:00,225 --> 01:16:06,385
parking spots. Right? Would the guests be informed

1206
01:16:06,385 --> 01:16:10,145
in advance of how curvy and up and

1207
01:16:10,145 --> 01:16:14,340
down Kalama River Road is? Because yeah, there

1208
01:16:14,340 --> 01:16:16,980
are some people that go extremely slow. There's

1209
01:16:16,980 --> 01:16:21,140
some people that go fast, especially if it's

1210
01:16:21,140 --> 01:16:24,020
January and we know that there are certain

1211
01:16:24,020 --> 01:16:28,005
icy spots that no one who's not familiar

1212
01:16:28,005 --> 01:16:31,445
with the road are gonna know about. We

1213
01:16:31,445 --> 01:16:33,605
all know those icy spots, but you can't

1214
01:16:33,605 --> 01:16:37,205
see them. So whether it's a car, a

1215
01:16:37,205 --> 01:16:41,210
car with you're pulling a trailer, whatever, that's,

1216
01:16:41,690 --> 01:16:44,010
I would want them to, people to be

1217
01:16:44,010 --> 01:16:46,330
informed of actually what kind of road this

1218
01:16:46,330 --> 01:16:48,170
is and the fact that there are log

1219
01:16:48,170 --> 01:16:50,570
trucks. Sometimes those log trucks are close to

1220
01:16:50,570 --> 01:16:55,894
the center line, you know, barreling down. And

1221
01:16:55,894 --> 01:16:58,695
then morning traffic say between, I mean, the

1222
01:16:58,695 --> 01:17:01,094
log trucks started four or five in the

1223
01:17:01,094 --> 01:17:03,894
morning, but say between six and nine, I

1224
01:17:03,894 --> 01:17:07,655
would want priority for the log trucks and

1225
01:17:07,655 --> 01:17:09,600
people going to work and people going to

1226
01:17:09,600 --> 01:17:13,360
school rather than anyone pulling out of the

1227
01:17:13,360 --> 01:17:17,760
campground and leaving, adding to the traffic at

1228
01:17:17,760 --> 01:17:22,720
that time of day. Oh, let me see.

1229
01:17:24,655 --> 01:17:27,295
That was, yeah, that's all I can think

1230
01:17:27,295 --> 01:17:29,855
of. I'm glad you mentioned about the fireworks.

1231
01:17:30,335 --> 01:17:33,695
Thank you for that. Sure. That is a

1232
01:17:33,695 --> 01:17:38,440
concern. Alright, thank you. Thank you. Ms. Scout

1233
01:17:38,440 --> 01:17:41,159
didn't quite ask questions of staff, but it

1234
01:17:41,159 --> 01:17:45,080
prompts me to remind, you're good. If you

1235
01:17:45,080 --> 01:17:49,560
have questions that you feel should be responded

1236
01:17:49,560 --> 01:17:52,795
to by the applicant or the county, you

1237
01:17:52,795 --> 01:17:55,675
don't ask them to those parties directly. If

1238
01:17:55,675 --> 01:17:57,355
you have any such questions, you ask them

1239
01:17:57,355 --> 01:18:00,554
to me. I'm the traffic cop for all

1240
01:18:00,554 --> 01:18:03,275
questions. Otherwise I lose control of the hearing

1241
01:18:03,275 --> 01:18:06,000
very quickly if there gets to be an

1242
01:18:06,000 --> 01:18:09,040
ongoing back and forth. And so everything would

1243
01:18:09,040 --> 01:18:11,040
come to me all then. If you do

1244
01:18:11,040 --> 01:18:13,040
have a question, I'll come back to it.

1245
01:18:13,040 --> 01:18:15,040
I make notes as to all questions that

1246
01:18:15,040 --> 01:18:17,200
are raised, and then I decide who should

1247
01:18:17,200 --> 01:18:20,675
best answer them. So I don't think I

1248
01:18:20,675 --> 01:18:22,994
had anything out of that that I need.

1249
01:18:22,994 --> 01:18:24,755
There are some things I'll follow-up on, but

1250
01:18:24,755 --> 01:18:27,395
not necessarily a specific question. If anyone does

1251
01:18:27,395 --> 01:18:29,795
have questions, post them to me. I'll post

1252
01:18:29,795 --> 01:18:35,010
them to the right people. Michael Okay. Golub.

1253
01:18:46,155 --> 01:18:48,235
Good morning. Good morning, sir. Let's have you

1254
01:18:48,235 --> 01:18:49,914
sworn, do you swear or affirm and tell

1255
01:18:49,914 --> 01:18:51,355
the truth, the whole truth and nothing but

1256
01:18:51,355 --> 01:18:54,554
the truth? I do. Go ahead. My name

1257
01:18:54,554 --> 01:18:57,755
is Michael Golub. I'm representing Clark's Comenia Fly

1258
01:18:57,755 --> 01:19:00,235
Fishers, a fishing club that has over 200

1259
01:19:00,235 --> 01:19:03,190
members with the mission of the preservation of

1260
01:19:03,190 --> 01:19:07,110
wild fish. Wild steelhead and salmon are both

1261
01:19:07,110 --> 01:19:10,950
endangered species. The Upper Kalama River above the

1262
01:19:10,950 --> 01:19:13,670
upper hatchery is fondly known as the holy

1263
01:19:13,670 --> 01:19:16,155
water, as it is the breeding ground of

1264
01:19:16,155 --> 01:19:19,275
the for these fish. Only wild fish are

1265
01:19:19,275 --> 01:19:22,155
released above the hatchery. The key to wild

1266
01:19:22,155 --> 01:19:27,114
fish is clean, cool water. Has anyone conducted

1267
01:19:27,114 --> 01:19:31,300
a red survey that fish are not spawning

1268
01:19:31,300 --> 01:19:34,100
in this area? So I appreciate that they

1269
01:19:34,100 --> 01:19:36,820
talked about the fries coming down and protecting

1270
01:19:36,820 --> 01:19:39,699
them. But what about the adult fish going

1271
01:19:39,699 --> 01:19:45,324
up to spawn? The impact of the sewage,

1272
01:19:45,324 --> 01:19:48,284
we talked about that to some degree, but

1273
01:19:48,284 --> 01:19:51,804
what about groundwater seepage? It says only a

1274
01:19:51,804 --> 01:19:57,170
mile upriver of the hatchery. So in a

1275
01:19:57,170 --> 01:19:59,410
case where there's any seepage in that, the

1276
01:19:59,410 --> 01:20:01,250
first place is to stop at the hatchery

1277
01:20:01,250 --> 01:20:03,730
where thousands of fish are managed every year.

1278
01:20:10,855 --> 01:20:15,094
The additional point is the wild fish are

1279
01:20:15,094 --> 01:20:20,295
all captured at the hatchery. These fish then

1280
01:20:20,375 --> 01:20:25,619
being traumatized going through that, being captured, oftentimes

1281
01:20:25,619 --> 01:20:28,980
tagged for good reasons because there's a lot

1282
01:20:28,980 --> 01:20:31,300
of environmental studies going on about trying to

1283
01:20:31,300 --> 01:20:33,619
establish a wild population of fish in the

1284
01:20:33,619 --> 01:20:39,625
Kalama River. They are traumatized. They come out

1285
01:20:39,625 --> 01:20:41,145
of the hatchery. They send them out a

1286
01:20:41,145 --> 01:20:43,545
chute into the river. Where is the first

1287
01:20:43,545 --> 01:20:47,465
place that they stop and rest? Less than

1288
01:20:47,465 --> 01:20:51,290
a mile up the river is this proposed

1289
01:20:51,290 --> 01:20:56,490
site. Those fish need clean, cool water, and

1290
01:20:56,490 --> 01:20:57,930
they need a place to rest and it

1291
01:20:57,930 --> 01:20:59,850
needs to be, you know, they can't be

1292
01:20:59,850 --> 01:21:02,585
people splashing around on a river. So, the

1293
01:21:02,585 --> 01:21:04,505
time frame to March to June, I don't

1294
01:21:04,505 --> 01:21:09,065
think accounts for that. There there are two

1295
01:21:09,065 --> 01:21:12,745
runs of steelhead on this river. A spring,

1296
01:21:12,745 --> 01:21:15,310
a summer run, and a winter run. So

1297
01:21:15,310 --> 01:21:17,790
there are fish in that river constantly going

1298
01:21:17,790 --> 01:21:20,670
through this area to either get to spawning

1299
01:21:20,670 --> 01:21:25,390
grounds or to spawn there. So we are

1300
01:21:25,390 --> 01:21:30,725
opposed to this endeavor. And we believe that

1301
01:21:30,725 --> 01:21:35,525
the conditions for to protect wild fish have

1302
01:21:35,525 --> 01:21:39,445
not been adequately considered at this time. Thank

1303
01:21:39,445 --> 01:21:55,795
you. Thank you. Next, I have Brian Davern.

1304
01:22:08,550 --> 01:22:10,310
Good morning. But have you sworn? Do you

1305
01:22:10,310 --> 01:22:11,910
swear or affirm to tell the truth, the

1306
01:22:11,910 --> 01:22:13,510
whole truth, and nothing but the truth? I

1307
01:22:13,510 --> 01:22:16,710
do. Go ahead. Good morning. My name is

1308
01:22:16,710 --> 01:22:20,310
Brian Davern. I'm a resident of South Kelso.

1309
01:22:21,430 --> 01:22:26,995
I first visited the Clammer River and John

1310
01:22:26,995 --> 01:22:32,195
Anderson's property in 1970 and have been a

1311
01:22:32,515 --> 01:22:38,690
frequent visitor since, mainly for angling purposes, but

1312
01:22:39,330 --> 01:22:47,435
more more recently for volunteer purposes. I have

1313
01:22:47,435 --> 01:22:55,035
two objections to this development. One concerns the

1314
01:22:55,035 --> 01:22:59,035
act of developing it and the threat to

1315
01:22:59,035 --> 01:23:04,570
the water quality that the hatchery directly downstream

1316
01:23:04,570 --> 01:23:12,330
will experience. I also have a concern about

1317
01:23:12,330 --> 01:23:15,450
how the property has been used in the

1318
01:23:16,055 --> 01:23:21,175
fifty five years that I'm aware of. John

1319
01:23:21,415 --> 01:23:27,495
would welcome a small handful of anglers each

1320
01:23:27,495 --> 01:23:31,300
day onto his property when the parking spots

1321
01:23:31,300 --> 01:23:34,260
were filled, that's all that would be there.

1322
01:23:34,500 --> 01:23:40,419
So his family use of the property and

1323
01:23:40,420 --> 01:23:43,905
a few anglers is what that stretch of

1324
01:23:43,905 --> 01:23:48,945
the river has experienced. What's proposed is nothing

1325
01:23:48,945 --> 01:23:58,230
like that. And and so the either seasonal

1326
01:23:58,230 --> 01:24:04,150
or year round potential activity for a stretch

1327
01:24:04,150 --> 01:24:10,389
of the river that has been quiet will

1328
01:24:10,389 --> 01:24:16,114
be upset and the the management work of

1329
01:24:16,514 --> 01:24:22,755
Wild Spring Chinook and Wild Steelhead has been

1330
01:24:22,755 --> 01:24:27,280
a particular management effort that I think would

1331
01:24:27,280 --> 01:24:33,840
be impacted. Those are my concerns and thank

1332
01:24:33,840 --> 01:24:36,480
you for hearing the testimony. Thank you Mr.

1333
01:24:36,480 --> 01:24:54,780
Dever. Next I have Brad Ruser. I hope

1334
01:24:54,780 --> 01:24:57,500
I pronounced that. Yeah, it's pronounced Reiser, but

1335
01:24:57,500 --> 01:24:59,260
you're right Okay. To I did that a

1336
01:24:59,260 --> 01:25:01,500
lot. That German double vowel thing going on.

1337
01:25:01,500 --> 01:25:05,179
Mr. Reiser, let's have you sworn, do you

1338
01:25:05,179 --> 01:25:06,780
swear or affirm to tell the truth, the

1339
01:25:06,780 --> 01:25:08,300
whole truth and nothing but the truth? I

1340
01:25:08,300 --> 01:25:10,465
do. Go ahead. A lot of my topics

1341
01:25:10,465 --> 01:25:13,105
have already been addressed so far, but my

1342
01:25:13,105 --> 01:25:15,185
concern up there, again, I'm glad we have

1343
01:25:15,185 --> 01:25:19,265
somebody here from Fish and Wildlife here. The

1344
01:25:19,265 --> 01:25:20,865
one issue we're looking at here, yes, there's

1345
01:25:20,865 --> 01:25:23,344
gonna be a huge impact on the fish.

1346
01:25:23,425 --> 01:25:26,200
That hatchery is a lot closer. I mean,

1347
01:25:26,200 --> 01:25:29,000
was literally right next door. When you put

1348
01:25:29,000 --> 01:25:31,080
a restriction from people being in that river

1349
01:25:31,080 --> 01:25:33,800
from March until June, whatever it may have

1350
01:25:33,800 --> 01:25:36,040
be, let's look at the real world here.

1351
01:25:36,040 --> 01:25:37,640
You're going to have people up there camping

1352
01:25:37,640 --> 01:25:40,505
with kids and everything. The reason they are

1353
01:25:40,505 --> 01:25:42,585
coming up there is to enjoy that river

1354
01:25:42,585 --> 01:25:44,905
that is right within a footstep of their

1355
01:25:44,905 --> 01:25:48,025
campsite. You're not gonna keep kids out of

1356
01:25:48,025 --> 01:25:50,185
that river. You're not gonna keep the public

1357
01:25:50,185 --> 01:25:52,440
out of that river when they're coming to

1358
01:25:52,440 --> 01:25:54,280
a place to camp and they're surrounded by

1359
01:25:54,280 --> 01:25:55,960
a river, they're going to use that river

1360
01:25:55,960 --> 01:25:58,120
at all times. There's not going to be

1361
01:25:58,120 --> 01:26:00,200
anybody there monitoring who goes in the water

1362
01:26:00,200 --> 01:26:03,160
who does not. There's a big concern of

1363
01:26:03,160 --> 01:26:05,575
mine right there I fish all that river.

1364
01:26:05,575 --> 01:26:07,015
I've been up there for thirty five years

1365
01:26:07,015 --> 01:26:09,815
as most of these people behind me have

1366
01:26:09,815 --> 01:26:12,375
been there for a long time. You know,

1367
01:26:12,375 --> 01:26:14,455
I remember the days when, you know, John

1368
01:26:14,455 --> 01:26:17,015
Anderson, LC Anderson, the owners of that property,

1369
01:26:17,380 --> 01:26:19,060
there's a frequent herd of elk that live

1370
01:26:19,060 --> 01:26:20,900
in there right now, and they cross between

1371
01:26:20,900 --> 01:26:23,780
that property and our property on Greenwood Road.

1372
01:26:23,780 --> 01:26:26,100
Are directly above that most of residents here

1373
01:26:26,260 --> 01:26:28,580
are in that area, and those elk live

1374
01:26:28,580 --> 01:26:30,020
there. They go back and forth. They did

1375
01:26:30,020 --> 01:26:33,345
not leave that area. Ellen Bodderoff, Jeff is

1376
01:26:33,345 --> 01:26:35,985
here, his son. Before that, he was raising

1377
01:26:35,985 --> 01:26:37,745
baby deer up there on that property with

1378
01:26:37,745 --> 01:26:39,665
John Anderson. He would take them in from

1379
01:26:39,665 --> 01:26:41,985
fish and wildlife when they were injured, and

1380
01:26:41,985 --> 01:26:43,745
he would raise them. The deer frequent that

1381
01:26:43,745 --> 01:26:46,065
property regular. They know that is their safe

1382
01:26:46,065 --> 01:26:49,410
place. So with those environmental issues that has

1383
01:26:49,410 --> 01:26:51,330
me concerned. Next thing I'd like to talk

1384
01:26:51,330 --> 01:26:55,410
about is the danger. That property there was

1385
01:26:55,410 --> 01:26:57,810
planted in timber by Ellen john is probably

1386
01:26:57,810 --> 01:26:59,570
three thousand thirty five year growth on the

1387
01:26:59,570 --> 01:27:02,344
timber directly on that property from there that

1388
01:27:02,344 --> 01:27:05,304
timber goes directly up the hill. And up

1389
01:27:05,304 --> 01:27:06,824
the top that hill we get winds every

1390
01:27:06,824 --> 01:27:08,824
day fifteen twenty miles an hour coming over

1391
01:27:08,824 --> 01:27:09,945
the top of that Hill and we are

1392
01:27:09,945 --> 01:27:12,665
surrounded by warehouse or property. If a fire

1393
01:27:12,665 --> 01:27:14,745
should start in that area, there's no getting

1394
01:27:14,745 --> 01:27:16,265
out of there, it's a one way road,

1395
01:27:16,810 --> 01:27:19,130
and 90% of the time the gates that

1396
01:27:19,130 --> 01:27:21,530
will allow access out of there are closed

1397
01:27:21,530 --> 01:27:23,449
by a warehouse or they are only open

1398
01:27:23,449 --> 01:27:26,650
during a need for an emergency such as

1399
01:27:26,650 --> 01:27:29,865
landslides and such. So there's no way for

1400
01:27:29,865 --> 01:27:31,145
people to get out of there. Have had

1401
01:27:31,145 --> 01:27:33,145
smoke up there blowing through our property with

1402
01:27:33,145 --> 01:27:34,905
smoke and ashes so thick we can't see

1403
01:27:34,905 --> 01:27:37,465
the other side of our property. And Gifford

1404
01:27:37,465 --> 01:27:39,705
Pinchop, you do your homework, there's fires up

1405
01:27:39,705 --> 01:27:42,170
there constantly, and we are in that area,

1406
01:27:42,170 --> 01:27:44,170
what happens if one starts along the river

1407
01:27:44,170 --> 01:27:46,570
with the winds coming up to Klamath Canyon,

1408
01:27:46,570 --> 01:27:48,730
we're all going to be in trouble. The

1409
01:27:48,730 --> 01:27:50,010
other thing I'd like to hit on is

1410
01:27:50,010 --> 01:27:51,930
that intersection I'm sure it's been brought up

1411
01:27:51,930 --> 01:27:54,985
several times, but those trucks are coming downhill

1412
01:27:54,985 --> 01:27:57,065
for over a mile before they hit that

1413
01:27:57,065 --> 01:28:00,344
intersection there's a steady downhill drop. You're not

1414
01:28:00,344 --> 01:28:02,344
stopping a log truck as Mr. Grimes has

1415
01:28:02,344 --> 01:28:04,585
mentioned you're not stopping a log truck. When

1416
01:28:04,585 --> 01:28:06,105
you come out of that driveway up there

1417
01:28:06,105 --> 01:28:07,864
is a hairpin turn you're coming out there

1418
01:28:07,864 --> 01:28:09,660
and you're coming out there slow, there's a

1419
01:28:09,660 --> 01:28:11,340
blind turn where the log trucks are coming

1420
01:28:11,340 --> 01:28:14,780
down the Bypass 6000 Warehouse Road that's the

1421
01:28:14,780 --> 01:28:16,380
only road they are allowed to use are

1422
01:28:16,380 --> 01:28:18,380
no longer go along the river. So that

1423
01:28:18,380 --> 01:28:21,100
intersection is a direct impact of not just

1424
01:28:21,100 --> 01:28:23,815
logging trucks, but all the logging equipment, the

1425
01:28:23,815 --> 01:28:26,295
crawlers are using everything is coming around that

1426
01:28:26,295 --> 01:28:28,775
turn of an RV pop, there's no stopping

1427
01:28:28,775 --> 01:28:31,815
them. And that's not even to mention all

1428
01:28:31,815 --> 01:28:33,335
the traffic issues we're going to have up

1429
01:28:33,335 --> 01:28:35,175
and down that road. In the last few

1430
01:28:35,175 --> 01:28:37,920
years that garbage up there has multiplied and

1431
01:28:37,920 --> 01:28:39,520
we go down the road every day and

1432
01:28:39,520 --> 01:28:40,960
we look at the amount of garbage out

1433
01:28:40,960 --> 01:28:43,200
there there's nobody to clean it up. Garbage

1434
01:28:43,200 --> 01:28:45,360
is being brought in by the public, and

1435
01:28:45,360 --> 01:28:46,960
as residents up there a lot of us

1436
01:28:46,960 --> 01:28:48,400
will go along with garden, we will clean

1437
01:28:48,400 --> 01:28:49,840
up our area up there but when you

1438
01:28:49,840 --> 01:28:51,600
see the public coming in and destroying it.

1439
01:28:52,054 --> 01:28:54,054
This is gonna have a huge impact on

1440
01:28:54,054 --> 01:28:55,975
what we have up there. And I've been

1441
01:28:55,975 --> 01:28:57,335
up there for many years and I just

1442
01:28:57,335 --> 01:28:58,614
don't want you to I'm used to sitting

1443
01:28:58,614 --> 01:29:00,614
on my deck and listening to the waterfall

1444
01:29:01,014 --> 01:29:03,175
at the hatchery directly below me. I'm not

1445
01:29:03,175 --> 01:29:04,534
gonna sit on my deck and listen to

1446
01:29:04,534 --> 01:29:06,910
a bunch of campers. I mean, I mean,

1447
01:29:06,910 --> 01:29:08,750
you know, if I have to, but still,

1448
01:29:08,750 --> 01:29:10,670
why are we destroying what we have up

1449
01:29:10,670 --> 01:29:14,190
there, both environmentally and safety? And that's all

1450
01:29:14,190 --> 01:29:21,470
I have. Thank you. Thank you. Scott Ball?

1451
01:29:22,275 --> 01:29:27,875
Okay, we're back to the five minute club.

1452
01:29:29,075 --> 01:29:31,715
Go ahead. Both of my points have been

1453
01:29:31,715 --> 01:29:34,355
touched. So Ms. Boddart, why don't you come

1454
01:29:34,355 --> 01:29:43,849
forward? Okay. Thank you, Mr. Michelle. Meyer? I've

1455
01:29:43,849 --> 01:29:47,929
been on the river over sixty years up

1456
01:29:47,929 --> 01:29:56,005
there. Again, lot of the stuff was touched

1457
01:29:56,005 --> 01:30:01,205
but that river was changed back in the

1458
01:30:01,205 --> 01:30:05,060
nineties, I believe. And I would like, I

1459
01:30:05,060 --> 01:30:07,940
looked for the date when it was changed,

1460
01:30:07,940 --> 01:30:12,260
but that's when they quit letting the hatchery

1461
01:30:12,260 --> 01:30:17,700
fish on the Upper River. And the reason

1462
01:30:17,700 --> 01:30:21,355
for that was to build a wild Steelhead

1463
01:30:21,355 --> 01:30:28,474
sanctuary. Mr. Examiner, did you need to swear

1464
01:30:28,474 --> 01:30:34,150
me in? I sure did. Somehow I had

1465
01:30:34,150 --> 01:30:35,990
thought we had taken care of that, but

1466
01:30:35,990 --> 01:30:38,790
thank you. Mr. Bauter, let's have you sworn,

1467
01:30:38,790 --> 01:30:40,230
do you swear or affirm to tell the

1468
01:30:40,230 --> 01:30:42,150
truth, the whole truth and that's I do.

1469
01:30:42,150 --> 01:30:47,190
Thank you. And so, you know, it's where

1470
01:30:47,190 --> 01:30:50,715
we came from. I grew up up there

1471
01:30:50,715 --> 01:30:53,035
and that river was flooded with people back

1472
01:30:53,035 --> 01:30:57,594
then because it was hotter fish and the,

1473
01:30:58,475 --> 01:31:01,114
you know, the use was just too much

1474
01:31:01,114 --> 01:31:05,090
for the river to handle for the wild

1475
01:31:05,090 --> 01:31:09,490
steelhead to benefit. And so that was changed

1476
01:31:09,490 --> 01:31:13,730
and there's a date associated with that. And

1477
01:31:15,330 --> 01:31:17,970
the next thing is, you know, I've been

1478
01:31:17,970 --> 01:31:21,305
on that river my whole life. I floated

1479
01:31:21,305 --> 01:31:24,505
to that farm to work and interacted on

1480
01:31:24,505 --> 01:31:27,945
that farm for fifty years. And so I

1481
01:31:27,945 --> 01:31:31,145
know every piece of it better than anyone.

1482
01:31:31,705 --> 01:31:34,780
And as my later years, I've been down

1483
01:31:34,780 --> 01:31:39,020
the river a few times and if on

1484
01:31:39,020 --> 01:31:44,220
your map here, on that upper shoreline, it's

1485
01:31:44,220 --> 01:31:47,580
a straight line. That's not a natural river.

1486
01:31:47,995 --> 01:31:51,114
And I'm not sure who the owner was,

1487
01:31:52,155 --> 01:31:57,435
but that shoreline has been changed. And we're

1488
01:31:57,435 --> 01:32:02,420
talking single digit years since it was changed.

1489
01:32:03,460 --> 01:32:06,180
And I never ever seen a permit out

1490
01:32:06,180 --> 01:32:09,540
there nowhere. On the Upper Road, down by

1491
01:32:09,540 --> 01:32:13,725
the Lower Road, again I'm all of a

1492
01:32:13,725 --> 01:32:15,804
sudden when I went down the river, it

1493
01:32:15,804 --> 01:32:20,284
was there one day. And that's a recent

1494
01:32:20,284 --> 01:32:23,804
thing. And it may not mean anything to

1495
01:32:23,804 --> 01:32:26,525
people that haven't lived and breathed out there,

1496
01:32:26,525 --> 01:32:30,550
but that flooding in the spring supported wetlands

1497
01:32:30,550 --> 01:32:33,830
on the lower end. I mean, you get

1498
01:32:33,830 --> 01:32:36,870
wood ducks in there and you know, they

1499
01:32:36,870 --> 01:32:40,630
find refuge in there because the predators out

1500
01:32:40,630 --> 01:32:45,565
on the mainstream. And that's just how nature

1501
01:32:45,565 --> 01:32:50,765
works and that's been eliminated. And so if

1502
01:32:50,765 --> 01:32:54,925
we're talking shoreline permit, shoreline this, shoreline that,

1503
01:32:54,925 --> 01:32:59,230
it's already, that property's already showing a total

1504
01:32:59,230 --> 01:33:04,910
disregard for the environment. In my book, you

1505
01:33:04,910 --> 01:33:08,830
know, when you go down a scenic natural

1506
01:33:08,830 --> 01:33:11,915
river, you expect to see that. You don't

1507
01:33:11,915 --> 01:33:15,514
expect to see giant riffraff piled up in

1508
01:33:15,514 --> 01:33:18,474
an even line along the bank, which they

1509
01:33:18,474 --> 01:33:20,395
had to have an excavator in the river

1510
01:33:20,395 --> 01:33:23,355
to accomplish that. It's been changed, look at

1511
01:33:23,355 --> 01:33:31,090
your maps. And then some notes I took

1512
01:33:31,090 --> 01:33:37,170
while you're talking rules. What's your reporting process?

1513
01:33:38,155 --> 01:33:42,795
Is the person that's managing it qualified? Is

1514
01:33:42,795 --> 01:33:45,435
it an in house only and is there

1515
01:33:45,435 --> 01:33:50,235
required documentation of any of the stuff that's

1516
01:33:50,235 --> 01:33:56,290
going on down there? And then another concern

1517
01:33:56,290 --> 01:34:01,010
of mine is cold water drownings. Rivers are

1518
01:34:01,010 --> 01:34:10,065
magnets. You're gonna I graduated on 06/02/1978 and

1519
01:34:11,265 --> 01:34:14,865
Mike Sager classmate drowned on June 3 next

1520
01:34:14,865 --> 01:34:19,480
day. He was a super athlete. He drowned

1521
01:34:19,480 --> 01:34:21,639
in the Clima River. He swam the middle

1522
01:34:21,639 --> 01:34:23,880
and cramped up. It was a 100 degree

1523
01:34:23,880 --> 01:34:27,560
day in June, snow melt. Went right to

1524
01:34:27,560 --> 01:34:31,080
the bottom. So that is one of the

1525
01:34:31,080 --> 01:34:37,695
saddest days of my life. And, you know,

1526
01:34:37,695 --> 01:34:40,974
that's that's pretty much just it. But a

1527
01:34:40,974 --> 01:34:43,215
real thing to me is where where we

1528
01:34:43,215 --> 01:34:46,255
came from, why was that section of river

1529
01:34:46,255 --> 01:34:50,889
changed, and where are we going? What brought

1530
01:34:50,889 --> 01:34:53,449
it to their attention back then? Is that

1531
01:34:53,449 --> 01:35:00,810
gone? Does it not matter? You know? Thank

1532
01:35:00,810 --> 01:35:06,975
you. Thank you. We'll come back to Mr.

1533
01:35:06,975 --> 01:35:16,470
Wall. Good morning. Let's have you sworn. Do

1534
01:35:16,470 --> 01:35:18,070
you swear or affirm to tell the truth,

1535
01:35:18,070 --> 01:35:19,910
whole truth, and nothing but the truth? I

1536
01:35:19,910 --> 01:35:22,630
do. Go ahead. So I do have some

1537
01:35:22,630 --> 01:35:24,469
written comments that I wanna get to in

1538
01:35:24,950 --> 01:35:27,605
just a second. I wanna tell you I

1539
01:35:27,605 --> 01:35:30,485
appreciate I wanna get my thoughts out. I

1540
01:35:30,485 --> 01:35:33,925
appreciate what you've covered today because about that

1541
01:35:33,925 --> 01:35:36,085
200 page staff report, probably a 100 was

1542
01:35:36,085 --> 01:35:38,485
my I I I wrote those a lot

1543
01:35:38,485 --> 01:35:41,840
of those comments. And your name is notable

1544
01:35:41,840 --> 01:35:43,600
in many of the documents. And I'm not

1545
01:35:43,600 --> 01:35:45,600
an attorney. I'm not an engineer, but I

1546
01:35:45,600 --> 01:35:48,560
can do research. And I may be right,

1547
01:35:48,560 --> 01:35:50,880
wrong, whatever on my comments. But I my

1548
01:35:50,880 --> 01:35:52,560
wife and I own the property between the

1549
01:35:52,560 --> 01:35:54,994
hatchery and the proposed project. So I live

1550
01:35:54,994 --> 01:35:57,715
that river every day. We purchased it from

1551
01:35:57,715 --> 01:36:00,675
John Anderson's son, the gentleman that several people

1552
01:36:00,675 --> 01:36:02,835
have talked to. He when we bought the

1553
01:36:02,835 --> 01:36:05,715
property from him six years ago, he spent

1554
01:36:05,715 --> 01:36:07,554
two hours walking with my wife and said,

1555
01:36:07,554 --> 01:36:08,835
I'll sell it to you only because you

1556
01:36:08,835 --> 01:36:10,840
guys understand what this river is all about.

1557
01:36:11,239 --> 01:36:12,600
He wasn't going to sell it just to

1558
01:36:12,600 --> 01:36:14,760
anybody, but we felt we felt very lucky

1559
01:36:14,760 --> 01:36:16,120
to have it. Now we've lived in Cowlitz

1560
01:36:16,120 --> 01:36:17,880
County for almost thirty years, but not on

1561
01:36:17,880 --> 01:36:19,719
the river. So I do want to go

1562
01:36:19,719 --> 01:36:22,440
through some my prepared comments and that's why

1563
01:36:22,440 --> 01:36:24,245
it's going go longer, maybe five minutes. But

1564
01:36:24,245 --> 01:36:25,365
I do wanna say one more thing because

1565
01:36:25,365 --> 01:36:26,485
I'm not sure it's gonna come out of

1566
01:36:26,485 --> 01:36:29,285
here. The biggest benefit from this hearing that

1567
01:36:29,285 --> 01:36:31,285
I've had so heard so far is the

1568
01:36:31,285 --> 01:36:33,125
thing that has been missed to this point.

1569
01:36:33,125 --> 01:36:35,525
And no offense to the county. These two

1570
01:36:35,525 --> 01:36:37,605
gentlemen have been so polite and so good,

1571
01:36:38,110 --> 01:36:42,270
Mr. Adam and Cody, because I've sent lots

1572
01:36:42,270 --> 01:36:44,270
of messages. They've never done anything but respect

1573
01:36:44,270 --> 01:36:47,710
to me. And I appreciate the engineering reports.

1574
01:36:47,710 --> 01:36:51,150
I'm sure they're right. But the point that's

1575
01:36:51,150 --> 01:36:53,515
being missed that I feel like you're accentuating

1576
01:36:53,515 --> 01:36:55,515
is that we're looking at these slices of

1577
01:36:55,515 --> 01:36:57,195
a pie. We're looking at the salt, the

1578
01:36:57,195 --> 01:36:58,715
ingredients of the pie, but no one's looking

1579
01:36:58,715 --> 01:37:00,875
at the whole picture. It's a cumulative effect

1580
01:37:00,875 --> 01:37:02,875
of this whole thing that is impacting this

1581
01:37:02,875 --> 01:37:05,780
area. It's these people. It's a wildlife. And

1582
01:37:05,780 --> 01:37:07,540
when you start saying, we're going to put

1583
01:37:07,540 --> 01:37:08,980
five more feet of pavement and we've met

1584
01:37:08,980 --> 01:37:11,060
this code. Great. You know, we're going put

1585
01:37:11,060 --> 01:37:12,420
a septic tank in here and it's going

1586
01:37:12,420 --> 01:37:14,340
to meet that great. Well, septic when it

1587
01:37:14,340 --> 01:37:15,540
runs off is going to run down to

1588
01:37:15,540 --> 01:37:17,620
the end of the field where if anybody

1589
01:37:17,620 --> 01:37:19,485
goes out there and looks right now it's

1590
01:37:19,485 --> 01:37:21,485
falling off this last year it's falling up

1591
01:37:21,485 --> 01:37:23,885
and coming to my property. Bainbridge it's running

1592
01:37:23,885 --> 01:37:25,405
through the field and going down there they've

1593
01:37:25,405 --> 01:37:27,565
got trails that are going through the wetland

1594
01:37:27,565 --> 01:37:29,885
right up to my property. Bainbridge What why

1595
01:37:29,885 --> 01:37:32,650
aren't we talking about that No one seems

1596
01:37:32,650 --> 01:37:34,250
to be looking big picture, but I appreciate

1597
01:37:34,250 --> 01:37:36,090
the questions that you've asked because at a

1598
01:37:36,090 --> 01:37:38,570
very minimum, it feels like you are doing

1599
01:37:38,570 --> 01:37:41,850
that. I appreciate that. Not worth anything, but

1600
01:37:41,850 --> 01:37:44,250
worth it to me and my family. So

1601
01:37:45,530 --> 01:37:47,895
I would like to read my comments. And

1602
01:37:47,895 --> 01:37:49,415
I wanna take a little different approach. I'm

1603
01:37:49,415 --> 01:37:51,175
not gonna rehash everything that I sent in

1604
01:37:51,175 --> 01:37:52,934
the hundreds of pages. So there is a

1605
01:37:52,934 --> 01:37:55,175
little different view here. As I said, my

1606
01:37:55,255 --> 01:37:56,775
And and mister Wall, are you gonna be

1607
01:37:56,775 --> 01:37:58,695
reading from that? Yeah. And I'll leave this

1608
01:37:58,695 --> 01:38:00,695
with you. Great. Yeah. I'll try to slow

1609
01:38:00,695 --> 01:38:01,895
down a little bit. I do tend to

1610
01:38:01,895 --> 01:38:04,580
talk a little fast. So, like I said,

1611
01:38:04,580 --> 01:38:06,340
my wife and I live at 4307 Clam

1612
01:38:06,340 --> 01:38:08,660
River Road, between the hatchery and the property

1613
01:38:08,660 --> 01:38:12,340
that's being proposed for this project. We chose

1614
01:38:12,340 --> 01:38:14,179
this place for its peace in its river.

1615
01:38:14,500 --> 01:38:16,580
We pay our taxes and maintain our property

1616
01:38:16,580 --> 01:38:19,045
with expectation that the county will also act

1617
01:38:19,045 --> 01:38:20,565
as a steward for the residents who already

1618
01:38:20,565 --> 01:38:23,125
live here, not just commercial applicant. It's not

1619
01:38:23,125 --> 01:38:24,965
a simple land use decision as we've seen

1620
01:38:24,965 --> 01:38:27,205
here today. It's a clear choice between upholding

1621
01:38:27,205 --> 01:38:28,805
the duty of the county to protect existing

1622
01:38:28,805 --> 01:38:30,485
rights and improving a project that will cause

1623
01:38:30,485 --> 01:38:35,010
irreversible harm. I've already submitted detailed comments highlighting

1624
01:38:35,010 --> 01:38:36,610
what I view as deficiency in the review

1625
01:38:36,610 --> 01:38:39,330
to date, including the failure to assess the

1626
01:38:39,330 --> 01:38:41,969
cumulative impacts as required by the law and

1627
01:38:41,969 --> 01:38:44,210
misleading guidance provided by the county related to

1628
01:38:44,210 --> 01:38:45,969
the appeal process. So I'm not gonna go

1629
01:38:45,969 --> 01:38:49,495
into those again. And I said, I appreciate

1630
01:38:49,495 --> 01:38:52,935
you having reviewed those in your assessment. This

1631
01:38:52,935 --> 01:38:54,775
project's the wrong project at the wrong time

1632
01:38:54,775 --> 01:38:57,175
and the reviews been far too thin, relying

1633
01:38:57,175 --> 01:38:59,495
on the applicant page studies and avoiding hard

1634
01:38:59,495 --> 01:39:03,340
questions with specific details. For example, the traffic

1635
01:39:03,340 --> 01:39:05,740
report. The photos are in the traffic report.

1636
01:39:05,740 --> 01:39:07,900
Don't show the intersection. They're all looking downstream.

1637
01:39:07,900 --> 01:39:09,660
They're not looking at the problem that's there.

1638
01:39:09,660 --> 01:39:12,540
They're looking away from it. Staff reports characterization

1639
01:39:12,540 --> 01:39:14,300
of this as a relatively small is a

1640
01:39:14,300 --> 01:39:17,415
direct contradiction of reality. And relatively small, I

1641
01:39:17,415 --> 01:39:19,575
get what relatively means, but relative to what's

1642
01:39:19,575 --> 01:39:21,495
there now, this is monumental. This is a

1643
01:39:21,495 --> 01:39:23,655
city. There's nothing like that there. So calling

1644
01:39:23,655 --> 01:39:26,215
this relatively small and then applying the filters

1645
01:39:26,295 --> 01:39:29,870
of what relatively small means is wrong. 37

1646
01:39:29,870 --> 01:39:32,190
sites, many of them essentially permanent with the

1647
01:39:32,190 --> 01:39:36,910
geodomes and the drop structures. Calmins, hosting easily

1648
01:39:36,910 --> 01:39:38,910
thousands of visitors annually, it's not hard to

1649
01:39:38,910 --> 01:39:41,390
do the math to get there. 37 campsites,

1650
01:39:41,505 --> 01:39:44,385
couple people fifty two weeks a year, you

1651
01:39:44,385 --> 01:39:47,025
can get there real easy. Annually is a

1652
01:39:47,025 --> 01:39:48,864
commercial venture of the scale of a new

1653
01:39:48,864 --> 01:39:51,745
subdivision without the accountability if we put five

1654
01:39:51,745 --> 01:39:54,304
houses in there you'd have Homeowners. They're responsible

1655
01:39:54,304 --> 01:39:56,250
they're taking care of their property You've got

1656
01:39:56,250 --> 01:39:57,770
thousands of people coming in, but all they

1657
01:39:57,770 --> 01:39:58,890
want to do is get in there, have

1658
01:39:58,890 --> 01:40:01,370
a good time and get out. The accountability

1659
01:40:01,370 --> 01:40:03,850
is not there, and it minimizes the exposes

1660
01:40:03,850 --> 01:40:05,770
the fundamental flaw in the county's approach to

1661
01:40:05,770 --> 01:40:08,730
this. So from my standpoint, this would this

1662
01:40:08,885 --> 01:40:10,805
ultimately results in only one thing that this

1663
01:40:10,805 --> 01:40:14,005
application should be denied. So the debate on

1664
01:40:14,005 --> 01:40:16,245
this project ultimately centers on one core legal

1665
01:40:16,245 --> 01:40:19,765
principle in my opinion, because I can't I

1666
01:40:19,765 --> 01:40:22,325
can't argue the the environmental impact that I'm

1667
01:40:22,325 --> 01:40:23,980
that's not my thing I appreciate the fish

1668
01:40:23,980 --> 01:40:25,660
and wildlife people being here because I thought

1669
01:40:25,660 --> 01:40:27,900
that's such a huge. Of it, but we're

1670
01:40:27,900 --> 01:40:30,140
talking about property rights and that's the core

1671
01:40:30,140 --> 01:40:31,980
of my comment today property rights, not just

1672
01:40:31,980 --> 01:40:33,660
the right of somebody that can pay to

1673
01:40:33,660 --> 01:40:37,145
have. Engineering firm put an engineer together legal

1674
01:40:37,145 --> 01:40:39,224
and go through all the permitting but rights

1675
01:40:39,224 --> 01:40:41,945
about the people that live there today. Taking

1676
01:40:41,945 --> 01:40:44,425
their rights away not not diminishing why they

1677
01:40:44,425 --> 01:40:46,344
moved there not having to do with deal

1678
01:40:46,344 --> 01:40:47,864
with all the traffic coming up and down.

1679
01:40:48,170 --> 01:40:50,170
We have amendments in The United States, the

1680
01:40:50,170 --> 01:40:52,330
fourth and fifteenth that protect these rights in

1681
01:40:52,330 --> 01:40:55,610
the Washington State Constitution Article one section 16

1682
01:40:55,770 --> 01:40:58,810
also states that given private property shall not

1683
01:40:58,810 --> 01:41:01,795
be taken or damaged without just compensation. Term

1684
01:41:01,795 --> 01:41:03,795
damage is crucial because it means any government

1685
01:41:03,795 --> 01:41:06,675
action, including land use approval that demonstrably harms

1686
01:41:06,675 --> 01:41:08,515
the value, safety, livability of a property is

1687
01:41:08,515 --> 01:41:10,675
a violation of this right. Now I personally,

1688
01:41:10,675 --> 01:41:12,195
I can't speak on behalf of everybody in

1689
01:41:12,195 --> 01:41:14,355
here, but I personally say this will harm

1690
01:41:14,355 --> 01:41:16,835
my property values. It will harm my way

1691
01:41:16,835 --> 01:41:18,530
of life if this is approved as it

1692
01:41:18,530 --> 01:41:21,010
stands. Approving this project as a government action

1693
01:41:21,010 --> 01:41:23,570
will cause direct and measurable harm. It will

1694
01:41:23,570 --> 01:41:25,410
erode our rights to peace and safety, diminish

1695
01:41:25,410 --> 01:41:27,490
property values, and permanently alter this unique character

1696
01:41:27,490 --> 01:41:31,135
of this valley. Transforming a protected community environmentally

1697
01:41:31,135 --> 01:41:34,255
fragile area into a commercialized and degraded landscape.

1698
01:41:35,295 --> 01:41:37,135
And I don't have 20 pages here. Have

1699
01:41:37,135 --> 01:41:40,015
one more, so no. Sorry. The applicant applicant

1700
01:41:40,015 --> 01:41:42,175
may promise mitigation, but the impacts are so

1701
01:41:42,175 --> 01:41:44,495
severe and cumulative cumulative that they cannot be

1702
01:41:44,495 --> 01:41:46,420
mitigated, and the risks are too high for

1703
01:41:46,420 --> 01:41:48,980
just promises. They represent a fundamental and destructive

1704
01:41:48,980 --> 01:41:51,700
shift in our community's character. Constant noise, light,

1705
01:41:51,700 --> 01:41:53,620
and crowds from thousands of visitors will permanently

1706
01:41:53,620 --> 01:41:55,460
shatter the peace we relied on. There's no

1707
01:41:55,460 --> 01:41:58,594
fence high enough to contain this impact. The

1708
01:41:58,594 --> 01:42:00,915
access point is a blind intersection, an unsuited

1709
01:42:00,915 --> 01:42:03,235
rural road is risky for disaster. Hundreds of

1710
01:42:03,235 --> 01:42:06,195
weekly vehicles, thousands of annual visitors will inevitably

1711
01:42:06,195 --> 01:42:09,155
lead to collisions and compromise emergency access for

1712
01:42:09,155 --> 01:42:11,074
every resident in this canyon. This isn't a

1713
01:42:11,074 --> 01:42:14,050
speculative risk, it's a certainty. The project site

1714
01:42:14,050 --> 01:42:16,130
is known as a floodplain. Increase in perrier

1715
01:42:16,130 --> 01:42:19,170
services will exacerbate flooding for downstream neighbors, a

1716
01:42:19,170 --> 01:42:22,050
risk proven by previous events. Furthermore, the commercial

1717
01:42:22,050 --> 01:42:23,810
use of wells and septic systems will strain

1718
01:42:23,810 --> 01:42:26,425
our shelled aquifers, our shared aquifers and risk

1719
01:42:26,425 --> 01:42:29,465
contaminated drinking water. In the report, I shared

1720
01:42:29,465 --> 01:42:30,985
some photos from the last time the flood

1721
01:42:30,985 --> 01:42:33,865
did come through. Every single standing structure that's

1722
01:42:33,865 --> 01:42:35,465
there today was inundated with at least two

1723
01:42:35,465 --> 01:42:37,305
to three feet of water. That water all

1724
01:42:37,305 --> 01:42:40,120
went on downstream, down through my property, to

1725
01:42:40,120 --> 01:42:43,560
the hatchery, down river. Continuing that and building

1726
01:42:43,560 --> 01:42:46,040
on that, I don't understand how how that

1727
01:42:46,040 --> 01:42:48,760
could be approved. Duty of the county is

1728
01:42:48,760 --> 01:42:49,960
not to find a way to approve this

1729
01:42:49,960 --> 01:42:52,280
application. Duty is county is to protect the

1730
01:42:52,280 --> 01:42:54,665
people and the environment served. The duty is

1731
01:42:54,665 --> 01:42:56,425
to uphold the law. The law requires a

1732
01:42:56,425 --> 01:42:59,145
substantive review of cumulative impacts under SEPA, not

1733
01:42:59,145 --> 01:43:02,825
a simple box checking exercise. Duties protect existing

1734
01:43:02,825 --> 01:43:05,785
property rights. Cannot guarantee commercial privileges to one

1735
01:43:05,785 --> 01:43:07,705
applicant by taking away the constitutional rights of

1736
01:43:07,705 --> 01:43:11,630
many other long standing residents. The duty is

1737
01:43:11,630 --> 01:43:14,750
to be the final barrier to help unavoidable

1738
01:43:14,750 --> 01:43:17,070
harms to this project cannot be mitigated. The

1739
01:43:17,070 --> 01:43:19,150
only legal and ethical resource for my opinion

1740
01:43:19,150 --> 01:43:24,045
is to deny the application as proposed. I'll

1741
01:43:24,045 --> 01:43:26,925
stop there. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. And

1742
01:43:26,925 --> 01:43:29,085
if you'll give those comments to the staff

1743
01:43:29,085 --> 01:43:32,284
so that they can make copies and provide

1744
01:43:32,284 --> 01:43:36,670
me with one. No offense, guys. You've been

1745
01:43:36,670 --> 01:43:38,989
great. But I was understood that we had

1746
01:43:38,989 --> 01:43:41,070
no option to provide anything written. Had I

1747
01:43:41,070 --> 01:43:43,230
known I could give something, I'd have three

1748
01:43:43,230 --> 01:43:46,110
more pages here of things. So I do

1749
01:43:46,110 --> 01:43:47,550
have some other things that I think are

1750
01:43:47,550 --> 01:43:51,295
very valid. Once I'll I'll come back to

1751
01:43:51,295 --> 01:43:55,215
that, mister Paul in a slightly request that

1752
01:43:55,215 --> 01:43:59,535
property, a public records release that was given

1753
01:43:59,535 --> 01:44:02,415
on Friday last week after the 5PM deadline.

1754
01:44:03,270 --> 01:44:05,510
I'll come back to that in a somewhat

1755
01:44:05,510 --> 01:44:09,750
different way. Sorry. So we'll recognize, and I

1756
01:44:09,750 --> 01:44:11,830
did not take notes because I anticipated Mr.

1757
01:44:11,830 --> 01:44:15,350
Walls has proceeded testimony. So that becomes exhibit

1758
01:44:15,350 --> 01:44:17,535
101. And again, if make that available to

1759
01:44:17,535 --> 01:44:19,055
the county so that I do have that,

1760
01:44:19,055 --> 01:44:22,175
Mr. Wall, that'd be great. We've gone through

1761
01:44:22,175 --> 01:44:25,375
the list of those who signed up. Again,

1762
01:44:25,455 --> 01:44:28,095
that's not in stone. And if there's anyone

1763
01:44:28,095 --> 01:44:30,175
else, a member of the public who would

1764
01:44:30,175 --> 01:44:31,695
like to be heard that did not sign

1765
01:44:31,695 --> 01:44:36,760
up, This is not two rounds, but if

1766
01:44:36,760 --> 01:44:40,440
there's anyone who didn't have the chance do

1767
01:44:40,440 --> 01:44:43,400
so, is there anyone who had not been

1768
01:44:43,400 --> 01:44:45,480
given the opportunity who would like to testify?

1769
01:44:46,685 --> 01:44:48,605
My record will reflect that there are no

1770
01:44:48,605 --> 01:44:51,885
takers and I do apologize that I, Mr.

1771
01:44:51,885 --> 01:44:54,925
Grimes, keep it to one time around, otherwise

1772
01:44:54,925 --> 01:44:56,765
we sort of again lose a bit of

1773
01:44:56,765 --> 01:45:00,399
control to our hearing. Now having said that,

1774
01:45:01,040 --> 01:45:04,400
by rule, the county and the applicant get

1775
01:45:04,400 --> 01:45:07,679
a chance to respond. Response is an inherent

1776
01:45:07,679 --> 01:45:10,560
piece of all public hearings. And so if

1777
01:45:10,560 --> 01:45:13,565
the county has any responses that wish to

1778
01:45:13,565 --> 01:45:16,605
make either to the applicant's presentation or to

1779
01:45:16,605 --> 01:45:19,005
the public presentation, Mr. Kreitz, there anything you

1780
01:45:19,005 --> 01:45:38,360
wish to say in response? Well, I forget

1781
01:45:38,360 --> 01:45:40,840
that we have this as a hybrid format.

1782
01:45:41,775 --> 01:45:45,855
Thank you. Is the record reflecting anyone appearing

1783
01:45:45,855 --> 01:45:49,215
remotely who wishes to be heard? No one

1784
01:45:49,215 --> 01:45:51,215
has provided any input or request to speak.

1785
01:45:51,215 --> 01:45:54,895
Okay, thank you. And then now let's make

1786
01:45:54,895 --> 01:45:57,800
it clear. If you're online and you're attending

1787
01:45:57,800 --> 01:46:01,400
this hearing, you can unmute at this time,

1788
01:46:01,640 --> 01:46:04,280
identify yourself and ask to testify and we

1789
01:46:04,280 --> 01:46:08,840
will recognize you. Just give that a moment.

1790
01:46:14,035 --> 01:46:16,675
If you're having trouble unmuting, you can use

1791
01:46:16,675 --> 01:46:19,555
the raise hand or the chat function in

1792
01:46:19,555 --> 01:46:27,949
Zoom to get our attention. Okay, we do

1793
01:46:27,949 --> 01:46:29,870
have a few guests online. I don't see

1794
01:46:29,870 --> 01:46:33,469
anybody unmuting. We have, we know at least

1795
01:46:33,469 --> 01:46:37,284
one person is online for the applicant. So,

1796
01:46:37,284 --> 01:46:38,885
at this time, we're asking members of the

1797
01:46:38,885 --> 01:46:42,645
public who are on the virtual call. You

1798
01:46:42,645 --> 01:46:45,204
can unmute, identify yourself, and we will recognize

1799
01:46:45,204 --> 01:46:47,844
you if you'd like to be heard. Okay,

1800
01:46:47,844 --> 01:46:50,760
see a hand up from beginning with letter

1801
01:46:50,760 --> 01:46:56,360
A. So, if you're able to unmute on

1802
01:46:56,360 --> 01:47:00,040
your end, go ahead and I've asked you

1803
01:47:00,040 --> 01:47:02,395
to unmute on your side. Should be able

1804
01:47:02,395 --> 01:47:12,955
to speak if you can unmute yourself. Okay.

1805
01:47:17,700 --> 01:47:19,620
Do you wanna try and Do you have

1806
01:47:19,620 --> 01:47:28,715
any controls over there? Okay, we've got an

1807
01:47:28,715 --> 01:47:32,155
accidental, I'm listening in comment. So it appears

1808
01:47:32,155 --> 01:47:38,155
that the hand raise was accidental. So to

1809
01:47:38,155 --> 01:47:39,755
break that to a conclose, I think it's

1810
01:47:39,755 --> 01:47:42,160
fair say that there are no members of

1811
01:47:42,160 --> 01:47:44,400
the public appearing virtually who do want to

1812
01:47:44,400 --> 01:47:46,880
be heard, which then gets us back to

1813
01:47:46,880 --> 01:47:49,280
the opportunity of both the applicant and the

1814
01:47:49,280 --> 01:47:53,200
county for response. So Mr. Kreitzer, Mr. Trimble,

1815
01:47:53,915 --> 01:47:55,835
started to ask you if you had any

1816
01:47:55,835 --> 01:47:59,755
response and then we got interrupted. Is there

1817
01:47:59,755 --> 01:48:04,955
any county response or rebuttal? Yeah, I believe

1818
01:48:04,955 --> 01:48:07,035
we can speak to some of the comments

1819
01:48:07,035 --> 01:48:11,070
made. Let me see first if the applicant

1820
01:48:11,070 --> 01:48:13,790
team is gonna ask the traffic engineer to

1821
01:48:13,790 --> 01:48:17,070
speak. We had several comments about traffic. So,

1822
01:48:17,070 --> 01:48:20,865
think it'd be appropriate to invite Mr. Christopher

1823
01:48:20,865 --> 01:48:23,505
Clemmau. If you wanna speak to the traffic

1824
01:48:23,505 --> 01:48:26,465
issue and comments raised, this would be a

1825
01:48:26,465 --> 01:48:27,985
great time to do that. You can unmute.

1826
01:48:34,300 --> 01:48:37,659
Chris Klimab. Can you hear me? Yes, I

1827
01:48:37,659 --> 01:48:41,500
can. So Mr. Klimab, let's have you, the

1828
01:48:41,500 --> 01:48:44,699
county has proposed your testimony in response to

1829
01:48:44,699 --> 01:48:47,020
the public comments. So let's first have you

1830
01:48:47,020 --> 01:48:50,115
sworn. Do you swear or affirm to tell

1831
01:48:50,115 --> 01:48:52,035
the truth, the whole truth and nothing but

1832
01:48:52,035 --> 01:48:58,915
the truth? Yes, I do. And so, I

1833
01:48:58,915 --> 01:49:01,075
don't, this becomes sort of the county's witness

1834
01:49:01,075 --> 01:49:06,610
at this point. Or I can ask either

1835
01:49:06,610 --> 01:49:09,489
the county or the applicant if you want

1836
01:49:09,489 --> 01:49:11,730
to give some direction to Mr. Climao or

1837
01:49:11,730 --> 01:49:13,570
you would like him to provide narrative and

1838
01:49:13,570 --> 01:49:16,525
in response to public testimony, how would you

1839
01:49:16,525 --> 01:49:24,044
like him to present? Chris, if you had

1840
01:49:24,204 --> 01:49:27,804
taken any comments and had some notes, I

1841
01:49:27,804 --> 01:49:30,010
would say just start with the first one

1842
01:49:30,010 --> 01:49:34,010
that you wanted to respond to. Okay, yes.

1843
01:49:35,450 --> 01:49:40,505
Several kind of observation here is that the

1844
01:49:40,505 --> 01:49:44,344
transportation analysis that we performed for this project

1845
01:49:44,344 --> 01:49:48,905
was focused on largely on-site distance at the

1846
01:49:49,145 --> 01:49:53,945
existing intersection. And I should say that the

1847
01:49:54,344 --> 01:49:58,480
standard or the requirements from the Cowlitz County

1848
01:49:58,480 --> 01:50:04,000
code essentially reference it says intersections governed by

1849
01:50:04,000 --> 01:50:06,960
this section shall provide adequate distance site distance

1850
01:50:06,960 --> 01:50:11,525
per standard design criteria, which I will point

1851
01:50:11,525 --> 01:50:17,445
that the standard design criteria is by AASHTO,

1852
01:50:17,445 --> 01:50:20,804
which is the American Association of State Highway

1853
01:50:20,804 --> 01:50:24,700
Transportation Officials. But there's two products that they

1854
01:50:24,700 --> 01:50:26,540
use, which is the green which is that

1855
01:50:26,540 --> 01:50:29,020
basically they're designed for highways and streets. It's

1856
01:50:29,020 --> 01:50:32,300
formally or commonly known as Green Book. And

1857
01:50:32,300 --> 01:50:35,420
it sets site distance kind of requirements that

1858
01:50:35,420 --> 01:50:37,695
agencies such as the county then adopt as

1859
01:50:37,695 --> 01:50:42,415
their standard. But even more importantly for roadways

1860
01:50:42,415 --> 01:50:45,534
such as this which has a lower traffic

1861
01:50:45,534 --> 01:50:49,770
volume, you use what ASHA refers to as

1862
01:50:49,770 --> 01:50:56,410
their guidelines for low volume roadways. Distinction here

1863
01:50:56,410 --> 01:50:59,850
being that while you measure sight distance at

1864
01:50:59,850 --> 01:51:02,650
the intersection, and there's no denying here that

1865
01:51:02,650 --> 01:51:07,844
this site access point has some limited, in

1866
01:51:07,844 --> 01:51:11,285
particular, horizontal clearance because it's on the outside

1867
01:51:11,285 --> 01:51:16,700
of a horizontal curve, the access is. It

1868
01:51:16,700 --> 01:51:19,180
is limited due to that. But then the

1869
01:51:19,180 --> 01:51:24,940
question is from, let's say, a regulatory standpoint,

1870
01:51:25,740 --> 01:51:30,695
is that an issue? From AASHTO's design guide

1871
01:51:30,695 --> 01:51:34,775
perspective, low volume roads have a actually have

1872
01:51:34,775 --> 01:51:43,380
a fairly low threshold criteria. And meaning, unless

1873
01:51:43,380 --> 01:51:46,820
there is an incident, you know, a documented

1874
01:51:46,820 --> 01:51:50,260
history of crashes here at this location, it's

1875
01:51:50,260 --> 01:51:54,755
usually that any changes are unlikely to gonna

1876
01:51:54,755 --> 01:51:59,875
kind of improve anything. Again, we've looked, okay,

1877
01:51:59,875 --> 01:52:02,835
so what I should say then is, I

1878
01:52:02,835 --> 01:52:05,475
mean that's the general AASHTO guidance is that

1879
01:52:05,475 --> 01:52:10,115
the existing condition can remain unless there's evidence

1880
01:52:10,810 --> 01:52:15,770
of a site specific crash pattern and or

1881
01:52:16,170 --> 01:52:19,370
that there's something clearly that this is going

1882
01:52:19,370 --> 01:52:21,530
to improve and the fact that there isn't

1883
01:52:21,530 --> 01:52:24,355
here because we went out, we counted not

1884
01:52:24,355 --> 01:52:26,755
only the traffic, we looked at the speeds,

1885
01:52:27,315 --> 01:52:32,034
and we measured sight distance. Required of stopping

1886
01:52:32,034 --> 01:52:35,315
sight distance in both directions is met. Well,

1887
01:52:35,315 --> 01:52:38,594
intersection sight distance is a little deficient in

1888
01:52:38,594 --> 01:52:43,530
one direction. Again, that's a desire. Okay. So

1889
01:52:43,530 --> 01:52:45,770
I should say there's a distinction between stopping

1890
01:52:45,770 --> 01:52:49,929
and intersection sight distance. Intersection is a desired

1891
01:52:51,290 --> 01:52:54,250
length. Stopping sight distance is more of a

1892
01:52:54,250 --> 01:53:00,955
required length. Intersection sight distance is met in

1893
01:53:01,435 --> 01:53:04,475
in all instances except for one, which is,

1894
01:53:04,795 --> 01:53:06,475
kind of a left turn from the stop

1895
01:53:06,475 --> 01:53:09,920
looking to the south, but the stopping sight

1896
01:53:09,920 --> 01:53:14,720
distance is made is met. So I guess

1897
01:53:14,720 --> 01:53:18,400
the short answer here is is that all

1898
01:53:18,400 --> 01:53:22,235
the necessary sight distance requirements are met. The

1899
01:53:22,235 --> 01:53:25,755
AASHTO guidance is that everything can remain in

1900
01:53:25,755 --> 01:53:28,395
place unless there's evidence, you know, kind of

1901
01:53:28,395 --> 01:53:31,675
some site specific crash pattern, which there isn't.

1902
01:53:33,275 --> 01:53:35,114
Yeah. I I I don't know how to

1903
01:53:35,114 --> 01:53:38,180
summarize this. I I understand that it's not

1904
01:53:38,180 --> 01:53:42,020
perfect out there, but the standard is that

1905
01:53:42,020 --> 01:53:49,380
there's no documented deficiency. So it's it's okay

1906
01:53:49,380 --> 01:53:53,625
to remain as is. That's what I have

1907
01:53:53,625 --> 01:53:57,465
to say. Does either the county, the applicant

1908
01:53:57,465 --> 01:53:59,465
wish to ask any other questions of the

1909
01:53:59,465 --> 01:54:04,185
witness? We do not, but the county does

1910
01:54:04,185 --> 01:54:07,620
have another witness as well. Okay. Thank you,

1911
01:54:07,620 --> 01:54:12,740
Mr. Klimao. And your other witness? Patrick Harbison

1912
01:54:12,740 --> 01:54:28,844
with Department of Public Works. Where is Mr.

1913
01:54:28,844 --> 01:54:32,364
I get this. Oh, sorry. Sometimes people are

1914
01:54:32,364 --> 01:54:36,410
just too close. Good morning, Mr. Arborson. Have

1915
01:54:36,410 --> 01:54:38,170
you sworn? Do you swear or affirm to

1916
01:54:38,170 --> 01:54:39,690
tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing

1917
01:54:39,690 --> 01:54:42,570
but the truth? I do. Go ahead. And

1918
01:54:42,570 --> 01:54:45,530
again, Patrick Arborson, Cowles County Department of Public

1919
01:54:45,530 --> 01:54:49,185
Works. In regards to the site distance issue,

1920
01:54:49,585 --> 01:54:51,265
try to simplify it a little bit for

1921
01:54:51,265 --> 01:54:56,225
you. All the intersection site doesn't meet requirements.

1922
01:54:56,945 --> 01:54:59,840
The one that was brought up as insufficient

1923
01:55:00,320 --> 01:55:03,920
is a stop controlled intersection. That leg has

1924
01:55:03,920 --> 01:55:07,360
a stop sign on it. And so the

1925
01:55:07,360 --> 01:55:09,360
site distance pretty much becomes null and void

1926
01:55:09,360 --> 01:55:13,835
because cars are supposed to stop. The the

1927
01:55:13,835 --> 01:55:18,315
direction that most was most discussed today regarding

1928
01:55:18,315 --> 01:55:22,315
the trucks comes down from Greenwood Weyerhaeuser, and

1929
01:55:22,315 --> 01:55:26,570
that has a sufficient sight distance according to

1930
01:55:26,570 --> 01:55:39,530
the traffic analysis. Okay. Anything else, Mr. Armisen?

1931
01:55:40,185 --> 01:55:43,065
The only other thing I'd add is that

1932
01:55:43,065 --> 01:55:47,305
the current preliminary stormwater proposal does meet Cowlitz

1933
01:55:47,305 --> 01:55:50,105
County Code sixteen twenty, and final review will

1934
01:55:50,105 --> 01:55:54,585
be once your decision is rendered and they

1935
01:55:54,585 --> 01:56:02,080
submit. Okay, let me, let's try that one

1936
01:56:02,080 --> 01:56:07,440
again. So they presented a preliminary stormwater plan?

1937
01:56:07,440 --> 01:56:18,155
Yes. That's in the record. Okay. It's the

1938
01:56:18,155 --> 01:56:20,795
very long report near the end. Right. The

1939
01:56:20,795 --> 01:56:22,880
one with all the pages and pages and

1940
01:56:22,880 --> 01:56:25,760
pages of statistics that no one ever looks

1941
01:56:25,760 --> 01:56:33,440
at. I take offense. Yeah, exactly. So, and

1942
01:56:33,440 --> 01:56:35,815
again, can you confirm that that is incorporating

1943
01:56:35,815 --> 01:56:40,295
existing structures into the necessary stormwater management? Correct.

1944
01:56:40,295 --> 01:56:45,335
Okay. How would you describe its retention and

1945
01:56:45,335 --> 01:56:49,329
treatment system? They use low impact development techniques

1946
01:56:49,489 --> 01:56:53,570
to treat and dispose of the water appropriately.

1947
01:56:57,570 --> 01:57:00,449
Is that on a sheet dispersal type system

1948
01:57:00,449 --> 01:57:03,385
then? It depends on what the source of

1949
01:57:03,385 --> 01:57:06,344
it is. They do dispersion for roads and

1950
01:57:06,344 --> 01:57:08,025
they use splash blocks for some of the

1951
01:57:08,025 --> 01:57:12,905
roofs, some compost amended vegetated filter strips for

1952
01:57:12,905 --> 01:57:16,025
other areas. They specifically designed it depending on

1953
01:57:16,025 --> 01:57:21,900
what is generating the pollution generation. Okay. And

1954
01:57:21,900 --> 01:57:26,139
at least preliminarily, it meets the county's most

1955
01:57:26,139 --> 01:57:47,530
recent version of the stormwater manual. Yes. Would

1956
01:57:47,530 --> 01:57:51,290
wastewater issues be in your strike zone? No.

1957
01:57:51,290 --> 01:57:58,010
Okay. So for the county, we do have

1958
01:57:58,010 --> 01:58:01,105
our environmental health manager here who I think

1959
01:58:01,105 --> 01:58:04,625
can speak generally to requirements that will apply

1960
01:58:04,625 --> 01:58:06,705
to this and all projects in the county.

1961
01:58:07,505 --> 01:58:10,305
As opposed to a condition of approval that

1962
01:58:10,305 --> 01:58:13,590
may be customized. You know, we do have

1963
01:58:13,590 --> 01:58:15,910
regulations in place that must be met, right?

1964
01:58:15,910 --> 01:58:18,710
So, we do have our staff here, Andrea

1965
01:58:18,710 --> 01:58:23,350
Yoho, who can speak to those. And how's

1966
01:58:23,350 --> 01:58:27,505
your last name spelled? Good morning, Andrea Yoho.

1967
01:58:27,505 --> 01:58:29,905
Last name is spelled y o h o,

1968
01:58:29,985 --> 01:58:41,640
Cowlitz County Health and Human Services. Okay. Miss

1969
01:58:41,640 --> 01:58:43,320
Yoho, let's have you sworn. Do you swear

1970
01:58:43,320 --> 01:58:44,600
or affirm to tell the truth, the whole

1971
01:58:44,600 --> 01:58:46,680
truth, and nothing but the truth? I do.

1972
01:58:46,680 --> 01:58:53,365
Go ahead. So my understanding is that the

1973
01:58:53,365 --> 01:58:55,045
question at hand is whether or not there

1974
01:58:55,045 --> 01:58:57,525
be an approved means of septic disposal on-site.

1975
01:58:58,165 --> 01:59:01,125
Cowlitz County code fifteen forty five requires general

1976
01:59:01,125 --> 01:59:04,645
sand has general sanitation requirements for any campground

1977
01:59:04,645 --> 01:59:07,899
or rv park within the county, And those

1978
01:59:07,980 --> 01:59:13,499
sanitation codes then refer back to WAC 246272A,

1979
01:59:13,900 --> 01:59:19,020
provide specifications for installation of septic systems based

1980
01:59:19,020 --> 01:59:22,755
on the number of people that the system

1981
01:59:22,755 --> 01:59:26,115
would be serving on a routine basis and

1982
01:59:26,115 --> 01:59:28,675
is dependent on the soil type up at

1983
01:59:28,675 --> 01:59:31,155
the site to determine the treatment level and

1984
01:59:31,155 --> 01:59:33,955
what that system, the functions and the parameters

1985
01:59:34,120 --> 01:59:39,400
of that system would require. Okay. As part

1986
01:59:39,400 --> 01:59:41,880
of soil type analysis, I assume you would

1987
01:59:41,960 --> 01:59:48,165
take into consideration floodway, floodplain, and other things

1988
01:59:48,165 --> 01:59:51,685
impacting soil type? Yes, sir. The WAC requires,

1989
01:59:51,685 --> 01:59:54,325
there are certain setbacks from the ordinary high

1990
01:59:54,325 --> 01:59:56,405
watermark. That's a 100 foot setback that the

1991
01:59:56,405 --> 02:00:02,165
drain field must meet. Setback from which line?

1992
02:00:02,165 --> 02:00:11,020
The ordinary high watermark. Any setback from the

1993
02:00:11,020 --> 02:00:15,820
ordinary, I mean from the floodplain? That I

1994
02:00:15,820 --> 02:00:19,075
believe we would defer to planning on. It's

1995
02:00:19,075 --> 02:00:23,635
not specified within our WAC. It the design.

1996
02:00:26,195 --> 02:00:29,555
Well, Which is we're talking about the design.

1997
02:00:29,555 --> 02:00:33,260
So what I'm trying to get from you

1998
02:00:33,260 --> 02:00:35,900
is to what extent, let me try this

1999
02:00:35,900 --> 02:00:39,500
again. Mr. Trimble's point a minute ago was

2000
02:00:39,500 --> 02:00:42,540
that a number of these issues are hardwired

2001
02:00:42,540 --> 02:00:47,175
into the county's regulations And therefore they don't

2002
02:00:47,175 --> 02:00:49,015
need to be dealt with that link because

2003
02:00:49,015 --> 02:00:55,255
they're already pre dealt with. I'm curious as

2004
02:00:55,255 --> 02:01:00,070
to wastewater, you're describing to the extent that

2005
02:01:00,070 --> 02:01:04,869
it's hardwired for regulation, but then you don't

2006
02:01:04,869 --> 02:01:09,030
have a hardwiring for floodplain in your system.

2007
02:01:09,349 --> 02:01:11,269
And that's where I'm trying to better understand

2008
02:01:12,255 --> 02:01:16,574
if you don't deal with it, why would

2009
02:01:16,574 --> 02:01:19,534
I not deal with it if there isn't

2010
02:01:19,534 --> 02:01:25,054
some specific regulation providing for it? Again, have,

2011
02:01:26,380 --> 02:01:29,020
it is declared that part of this is

2012
02:01:29,020 --> 02:01:31,100
a floodplain. We have the photos of the

2013
02:01:31,100 --> 02:01:34,300
area inundated with water. We have a design

2014
02:01:34,300 --> 02:01:36,700
that shows septic drain fields, but does not

2015
02:01:36,700 --> 02:01:41,244
show the tanks. And apparently those haven't yet

2016
02:01:41,244 --> 02:01:44,925
been located. I'm trying to figure out as

2017
02:01:44,925 --> 02:01:49,724
the one deciding whether that's acceptable, why I

2018
02:01:49,724 --> 02:01:53,260
should find that acceptable? Where are those tanks

2019
02:01:53,260 --> 02:01:55,739
gonna be? And why should I feel comfortable

2020
02:01:55,739 --> 02:02:00,060
that they won't become surcharged by stormwater and

2021
02:02:00,060 --> 02:02:04,940
force their effluent out under hydrostatic pressure? So

2022
02:02:04,940 --> 02:02:07,179
that's my question. And if you can answer

2023
02:02:07,179 --> 02:02:09,475
that Ms. Yeoh, great. So how might you

2024
02:02:09,475 --> 02:02:12,435
answer that question? If I might answer that,

2025
02:02:12,435 --> 02:02:17,474
Mr. Schadmeyer. 1625, our floodplain management, defers to

2026
02:02:17,635 --> 02:02:21,475
the septic designer to create the flood resistant

2027
02:02:21,475 --> 02:02:24,920
or flood proof waste management system. And there

2028
02:02:24,920 --> 02:02:28,280
exists some guidance documents within the NFIP, the

2029
02:02:28,280 --> 02:02:30,840
National Flood Insurance Program that FEMA has provided

2030
02:02:30,840 --> 02:02:34,680
that septic designers may utilize. But the septic

2031
02:02:34,680 --> 02:02:39,245
designer has to demonstrate with the design that

2032
02:02:39,245 --> 02:02:41,485
it will meet the standards as identified in

2033
02:02:41,485 --> 02:02:45,405
our code. That is helpful. But it's hinting

2034
02:02:45,405 --> 02:02:48,605
that that's not been done yet. Is that

2035
02:02:49,085 --> 02:02:52,060
a takeaway? At this time, the county hasn't

2036
02:02:52,060 --> 02:02:54,620
received a proposal for a septic design plan.

2037
02:02:54,620 --> 02:02:56,220
Therefore, we haven't been able to provide that

2038
02:02:56,220 --> 02:03:03,020
review. Okay. When a project is simply complying

2039
02:03:03,020 --> 02:03:07,365
with standards, it's not my business to second

2040
02:03:07,365 --> 02:03:11,525
guess standard compliance. When a project is being

2041
02:03:11,525 --> 02:03:14,965
built out of whole cloth and it's not

2042
02:03:15,125 --> 02:03:17,989
specifically following very direct standards, but is sort

2043
02:03:17,989 --> 02:03:20,150
of paving its own way because of unique

2044
02:03:20,150 --> 02:03:23,110
set of circumstances, then I feel a greater

2045
02:03:23,110 --> 02:03:27,429
obligation that it falls within my purview, unless

2046
02:03:27,429 --> 02:03:31,270
the staff purview, try this slightly different way.

2047
02:03:31,995 --> 02:03:34,315
I'm not an expert in engineering issues. I

2048
02:03:34,315 --> 02:03:37,355
don't claim to be one. And therefore it's

2049
02:03:37,355 --> 02:03:41,995
really not my job to oversee engineering decisions.

2050
02:03:42,475 --> 02:03:44,955
But to the extent that discretion is involved

2051
02:03:44,955 --> 02:03:47,739
in some of this, there should be greater

2052
02:03:47,739 --> 02:03:51,579
opportunity for first staff review and public review

2053
02:03:51,659 --> 02:03:55,580
of projects that are being proposed on their

2054
02:03:55,580 --> 02:04:00,060
own, not simply filling checking boxes on a

2055
02:04:00,060 --> 02:04:03,395
chart in a code. And that's a bit

2056
02:04:03,395 --> 02:04:06,835
of my concern here. Again, we show drain

2057
02:04:06,835 --> 02:04:08,995
fields, but we don't show where tanks are

2058
02:04:08,995 --> 02:04:12,035
located. It's the tanks, not the drain fields

2059
02:04:12,035 --> 02:04:14,435
that in this type of situation are the

2060
02:04:14,435 --> 02:04:18,070
greater concern. And so I'm just, I'm trying

2061
02:04:18,070 --> 02:04:20,469
to better understand where we are, where we

2062
02:04:20,469 --> 02:04:22,550
need to be, how do we get from

2063
02:04:22,550 --> 02:04:25,670
one to the other? And my belief is,

2064
02:04:25,670 --> 02:04:27,030
and I'll come back to this in a

2065
02:04:27,030 --> 02:04:29,125
moment, that it's something that I need more

2066
02:04:29,125 --> 02:04:31,364
information, which then in turn is entitled to

2067
02:04:31,364 --> 02:04:34,804
be publicly reviewed before I render that decision.

2068
02:04:34,965 --> 02:04:40,085
So, Long speech, didn't mean that, but Ms.

2069
02:04:40,085 --> 02:04:43,929
Yoho, anything else about the public health issues

2070
02:04:43,929 --> 02:04:50,489
that you would like to attend to? I

2071
02:04:50,489 --> 02:04:55,905
think the only other concern that I've heard

2072
02:04:55,905 --> 02:04:59,105
addressed today potentially is the potable water source,

2073
02:04:59,185 --> 02:05:03,345
which the wellhead proposed wellhead on-site would classify

2074
02:05:03,345 --> 02:05:06,225
as a class A well, and those construction

2075
02:05:06,225 --> 02:05:08,945
engineering permitting and oversight is seen by the

2076
02:05:08,945 --> 02:05:13,619
State Department of Health, not the county. Okay.

2077
02:05:13,780 --> 02:05:22,900
And that classification is based on correspondence that

2078
02:05:22,900 --> 02:05:25,060
we had with the applicants back in 2021.

2079
02:05:25,585 --> 02:05:28,225
So if the number of people being served

2080
02:05:28,225 --> 02:05:29,985
by the well has changed since that point

2081
02:05:29,985 --> 02:05:33,585
in time, then it might that might change.

2082
02:05:33,825 --> 02:05:36,545
The classification might be different, but based on

2083
02:05:36,545 --> 02:05:39,840
my understanding, the well was going to meet

2084
02:05:39,840 --> 02:05:42,079
the parameters of a Class A. All right.

2085
02:05:42,160 --> 02:05:45,760
So let's, thank you, because that's important. Let's

2086
02:05:45,760 --> 02:05:48,480
talk about that. Again, it's important in a

2087
02:05:48,480 --> 02:05:51,705
number of respects. One of which is, as

2088
02:05:51,705 --> 02:05:55,385
I was just explaining, it's not my job

2089
02:05:55,545 --> 02:05:58,425
to decide something when county regulations have already

2090
02:05:58,425 --> 02:06:02,824
decided it. When the county's regulations have already

2091
02:06:03,145 --> 02:06:07,429
said, given these criteria, the answer is X.

2092
02:06:08,870 --> 02:06:10,790
And so it's not my job to make

2093
02:06:10,790 --> 02:06:13,190
it Y when the county has already made

2094
02:06:13,190 --> 02:06:18,365
it X. With water, I need to better

2095
02:06:18,365 --> 02:06:24,125
understand the totality of the consequences of a

2096
02:06:24,125 --> 02:06:27,325
Class A system as to this project, because

2097
02:06:27,325 --> 02:06:29,565
I need to figure out where state regulation

2098
02:06:29,565 --> 02:06:34,640
ends and my decision making begins, or is

2099
02:06:34,640 --> 02:06:38,160
it simply entirely a state matter? Let me

2100
02:06:38,160 --> 02:06:42,640
try that one more time. So first it

2101
02:06:42,640 --> 02:06:45,040
would be helpful, Ms. Yoho, if you could,

2102
02:06:45,040 --> 02:06:47,545
for everyone's benefit, describe what it means to

2103
02:06:47,545 --> 02:06:50,665
be a Class A system and what's expected

2104
02:06:50,905 --> 02:06:53,785
generally of that system, which will help them

2105
02:06:53,785 --> 02:06:58,345
understand what's already regulated that doesn't need to

2106
02:06:58,345 --> 02:07:03,389
be regulated again. And then where that regulation

2107
02:07:03,389 --> 02:07:06,269
may sort of end and what that leaves

2108
02:07:06,269 --> 02:07:09,469
if anything about the use of that system,

2109
02:07:09,949 --> 02:07:13,869
that would be a matter of concern under

2110
02:07:13,869 --> 02:07:17,065
the various standards I'm to apply specifically those

2111
02:07:17,065 --> 02:07:22,105
standards applicable to a campground site plan. And

2112
02:07:22,105 --> 02:07:26,824
in that sense, it's one, it's assuring clean,

2113
02:07:26,824 --> 02:07:30,530
potable water. Two, it's assuring that only the

2114
02:07:30,530 --> 02:07:33,969
water that's allowed to be withdrawn is utilized.

2115
02:07:35,330 --> 02:07:37,570
And that that can be easily determined and

2116
02:07:37,570 --> 02:07:44,015
reported so that compliances can be confirmed. So

2117
02:07:44,975 --> 02:07:49,775
within the state health department or the Department

2118
02:07:49,775 --> 02:07:54,094
of Health, which regulates Class A water systems,

2119
02:07:54,895 --> 02:07:57,480
as a Class A water system, what would

2120
02:07:57,480 --> 02:08:02,440
be expected of this well? So I think

2121
02:08:02,440 --> 02:08:04,760
I'm gonna step back just a moment to

2122
02:08:04,760 --> 02:08:07,159
whether or not it would be classified as

2123
02:08:07,320 --> 02:08:09,400
a Class A well, which a Class A

2124
02:08:09,400 --> 02:08:11,239
well is going to be one that serves

2125
02:08:12,625 --> 02:08:15,344
25 or more people per day more than

2126
02:08:15,344 --> 02:08:17,745
sixty days a year or is anticipated to

2127
02:08:17,745 --> 02:08:23,824
do so. Alright. And based on some preliminary

2128
02:08:23,824 --> 02:08:25,910
conversations that we had had with the applicant,

2129
02:08:25,910 --> 02:08:27,590
that was our understanding is that it would

2130
02:08:27,590 --> 02:08:32,790
meet that threshold. Okay. To that, I don't,

2131
02:08:32,790 --> 02:08:35,110
I have not and do not review the

2132
02:08:35,110 --> 02:08:38,310
engineering of class A systems. It's not so

2133
02:08:38,310 --> 02:08:43,505
much the engineering, and I know it's outside

2134
02:08:43,505 --> 02:08:48,784
your expertise a little bit, I apologize. But

2135
02:08:48,784 --> 02:08:51,505
to the extent that that requires monitoring and

2136
02:08:51,505 --> 02:08:55,105
treatment, can you give us a very fundamental

2137
02:08:55,105 --> 02:08:56,940
sense of what's expected of a Class A

2138
02:08:56,940 --> 02:09:00,380
system? Class A systems would be required to

2139
02:09:00,380 --> 02:09:05,260
provide routine monitoring of the water quality testing

2140
02:09:05,260 --> 02:09:13,035
for, oh, coliform and inorganic analysis of the

2141
02:09:13,035 --> 02:09:16,075
water based on whatever it is that the

2142
02:09:16,075 --> 02:09:23,080
state sets. Don't know what those analytes are.

2143
02:09:23,080 --> 02:09:26,120
I'm sorry, can't report that. The standards themselves

2144
02:09:26,120 --> 02:09:28,120
aren't so much important as the fact that

2145
02:09:28,120 --> 02:09:31,720
there is They would require routine monitoring. And

2146
02:09:31,720 --> 02:09:34,200
that would be through a satellite agency, correct?

2147
02:09:34,200 --> 02:09:42,034
Yes. And to the extent that you might

2148
02:09:42,034 --> 02:09:48,755
know, will that monitoring announce the daily use

2149
02:09:48,755 --> 02:10:06,264
of water? I don't know. Do you know

2150
02:10:06,264 --> 02:10:10,425
if a Class A would, since it's no

2151
02:10:10,425 --> 02:10:14,505
longer an exempt well, an exempt well is

2152
02:10:14,505 --> 02:10:17,144
one again that a private homeowner can enjoy

2153
02:10:17,144 --> 02:10:20,184
without having to report testing to the state,

2154
02:10:21,700 --> 02:10:24,020
since it's no longer that exempt well, but

2155
02:10:24,020 --> 02:10:27,620
instead is regulated under Class A, do you

2156
02:10:27,620 --> 02:10:29,780
know if it has the same limits on

2157
02:10:29,780 --> 02:10:34,100
daily volume? I believe that the exemption is

2158
02:10:34,545 --> 02:10:38,385
authorized by Department of Ecology, and that is

2159
02:10:38,385 --> 02:10:41,025
based on the water flow, whether or not

2160
02:10:41,025 --> 02:10:43,985
this would fall under their exemption standards, I

2161
02:10:43,985 --> 02:10:47,824
can't speak. Okay. So again, when I sometimes

2162
02:10:47,824 --> 02:10:51,369
try to paraphrase the sense, give you a

2163
02:10:51,369 --> 02:10:53,050
sense of what I understand and you can

2164
02:10:53,050 --> 02:10:55,289
tell me where I'm wrong. So Department of

2165
02:10:55,289 --> 02:10:58,010
Health would regulate the well as a Class

2166
02:10:58,010 --> 02:11:01,130
A well, but the Department of Ecology would

2167
02:11:01,130 --> 02:11:04,889
regulate the well as to its allowed withdrawal

2168
02:11:04,889 --> 02:11:32,110
then, correct? Correct. Okay. Okay. One of the

2169
02:11:32,110 --> 02:11:35,790
members of the public have noted that there

2170
02:11:35,790 --> 02:11:41,764
are potential opportunities for large gatherings at the

2171
02:11:41,764 --> 02:11:44,644
event. It's describing itself as an event center.

2172
02:11:44,804 --> 02:11:48,005
It's not simply having overnight stays, but it's

2173
02:11:48,005 --> 02:11:51,700
also proposing an event building and describing itself

2174
02:11:51,700 --> 02:11:54,260
as an event center. And I'm just curious

2175
02:11:54,260 --> 02:11:57,780
from the county's health department, what are the

2176
02:11:57,780 --> 02:12:02,100
regulations imposed on event centers with respect to

2177
02:12:02,100 --> 02:12:10,395
environmental constraints, primarily water perhaps, septic, for example.

2178
02:12:10,475 --> 02:12:12,475
This is becoming too big of a question,

2179
02:12:12,475 --> 02:12:17,275
it's having too many pieces, but in seeking

2180
02:12:17,275 --> 02:12:20,280
approval as an event center, are there limits

2181
02:12:20,280 --> 02:12:24,440
on water use? And is there limits on

2182
02:12:24,440 --> 02:12:27,400
the number of participants because of either water

2183
02:12:27,400 --> 02:12:33,045
or septic? The septic question is going to

2184
02:12:33,045 --> 02:12:35,285
be easier for me to answer. Okay. And

2185
02:12:35,285 --> 02:12:37,285
that would be that the expectation would be

2186
02:12:37,285 --> 02:12:40,005
that the applicant would disclose to their designer

2187
02:12:40,005 --> 02:12:43,205
or engineer at the time of designing the

2188
02:12:43,205 --> 02:12:46,405
system. What the overall uses of the system

2189
02:12:46,405 --> 02:12:47,980
would be. So, that would be a daily

2190
02:12:47,980 --> 02:12:51,179
average use as well as perhaps incorporating search

2191
02:12:51,179 --> 02:12:54,060
capacity for large events and gatherings. So that

2192
02:12:54,060 --> 02:12:56,460
way that a septic designer or engineer would

2193
02:12:56,460 --> 02:13:00,540
be able to adequately engineer to accommodate all

2194
02:13:00,540 --> 02:13:03,615
uses. Okay. So Mr. Harborson, come back for

2195
02:13:03,615 --> 02:13:20,290
a moment. So reminding all anyone who I

2196
02:13:20,290 --> 02:13:23,969
call back that you remain under oath. Do

2197
02:13:23,969 --> 02:13:26,369
you know what the surge capacity is proposed

2198
02:13:26,369 --> 02:13:29,889
for the preliminary stormwater design for this project?

2199
02:13:29,889 --> 02:13:33,014
The surge capacity? Yes. We don't deal with

2200
02:13:33,014 --> 02:13:35,894
surge capacities in stormwater. We deal with Oh,

2201
02:13:35,894 --> 02:13:39,815
I'm sorry. Did I say stormwater? With in

2202
02:13:39,815 --> 02:13:41,574
terms of wastewater, do you happen to know

2203
02:13:41,574 --> 02:13:43,735
or is that outside your Okay, that's not

2204
02:13:43,735 --> 02:13:48,630
you. Okay, that's you. Okay. In the preliminary

2205
02:13:48,630 --> 02:13:52,870
wastewater design, do you know if Sorry, it's

2206
02:13:52,870 --> 02:13:55,750
so easy to get stormwater and wastewater tangled.

2207
02:13:56,390 --> 02:13:59,855
In the preliminary wastewater design. Do you know

2208
02:13:59,855 --> 02:14:04,014
what surge capacity is proposed? We haven't received

2209
02:14:04,014 --> 02:14:05,775
a design at this time, so I don't

2210
02:14:05,775 --> 02:14:09,800
have a preliminary review to provide. Okay. Once

2211
02:14:09,800 --> 02:14:11,480
again, do we have a chicken and egg

2212
02:14:11,480 --> 02:14:14,120
thing? We know, need to know what we're

2213
02:14:14,120 --> 02:14:18,120
just utilizing in order to regulate it, right?

2214
02:14:18,120 --> 02:14:22,280
So you don't have, for wastewater management, you

2215
02:14:22,280 --> 02:14:25,434
don't know how large a use is proposed.

2216
02:14:25,435 --> 02:14:27,594
I don't know how large a use has

2217
02:14:27,594 --> 02:14:33,275
been, would be proposed. However, there is within

2218
02:14:33,275 --> 02:14:36,235
the WAC and the Environmental Protection Agency manual,

2219
02:14:36,720 --> 02:14:42,800
there are proposed expected design flow rates. So,

2220
02:14:43,360 --> 02:14:46,960
in the case of designing a septic system

2221
02:14:46,960 --> 02:14:48,640
for this type of use, what we would

2222
02:14:48,640 --> 02:14:51,445
expect is that the designer or engineer would

2223
02:14:51,445 --> 02:14:54,085
refer back to the the flow rates likely

2224
02:14:54,085 --> 02:14:59,285
within the EPA manual and would base the

2225
02:14:59,285 --> 02:15:04,610
flow off of the off of the number

2226
02:15:04,610 --> 02:15:09,010
of visitors that the site would facilitate. Makes

2227
02:15:09,010 --> 02:15:11,970
sense, but it also would make sense, right,

2228
02:15:11,970 --> 02:15:17,170
to have a cap on use consistent with

2229
02:15:17,170 --> 02:15:21,235
the declared use so that you're not reviewing

2230
02:15:21,235 --> 02:15:26,035
a wastewater system that's designed for 50 users

2231
02:15:26,035 --> 02:15:27,795
and there might be an event with a

2232
02:15:27,795 --> 02:15:43,110
100 users, correct? Could you rephrase that for

2233
02:15:43,110 --> 02:15:48,095
me please? If you're being told by the

2234
02:15:48,095 --> 02:15:51,455
applicant that the design is based upon an

2235
02:15:51,455 --> 02:15:56,815
estimated max 50 users, wouldn't I want to

2236
02:15:56,815 --> 02:15:59,695
impose a limit that doesn't allow an event

2237
02:15:59,695 --> 02:16:03,010
of greater than 50 individuals so that the

2238
02:16:03,010 --> 02:16:06,690
use does not exceed the proposed, the system's

2239
02:16:06,690 --> 02:16:11,970
design. I see. That would certainly be within

2240
02:16:11,970 --> 02:16:15,010
your discretion. However, a person could also propose

2241
02:16:15,010 --> 02:16:17,570
for a special event to bring in additional

2242
02:16:18,105 --> 02:16:21,225
sanitation devices, such as porta potties to help

2243
02:16:21,225 --> 02:16:25,065
accommodate that additional number of people. Sure, but

2244
02:16:25,065 --> 02:16:30,265
that would require acknowledging the system alone, that

2245
02:16:30,265 --> 02:16:31,625
there could not be an event of greater

2246
02:16:31,625 --> 02:16:33,670
than X people, that if it's to exceed

2247
02:16:33,670 --> 02:16:36,469
that event or that capacity, then it has

2248
02:16:36,469 --> 02:16:43,350
to have supplemental wastewater or waste management. Would

2249
02:16:43,350 --> 02:16:48,545
you agree? Yes. Okay, all right. I'm not

2250
02:16:48,705 --> 02:16:50,385
trying to direct you in a certain way.

2251
02:16:50,385 --> 02:16:52,545
I'm just trying to see where we have

2252
02:16:52,865 --> 02:17:01,359
commonality in our thoughts. Okay. Okay, and those

2253
02:17:01,359 --> 02:17:03,680
are my questions of Ms. Yoho. Anything else

2254
02:17:03,680 --> 02:17:06,398
that you wanted to add? No, thank you.

2255
02:17:06,398 --> 02:17:12,160
Okay, thank you. Mr. Kreitzer, Mr. Trimble, anything

2256
02:17:12,160 --> 02:17:21,476
else? I was just gonna add that with

2257
02:17:21,955 --> 02:17:25,635
regard to the fire life safety comments raised,

2258
02:17:26,030 --> 02:17:28,110
you know, it is similar to, you know,

2259
02:17:28,110 --> 02:17:31,391
septic and water and that a standard must

2260
02:17:31,391 --> 02:17:34,270
be met. The international fire code must be

2261
02:17:34,270 --> 02:17:37,391
met by the applicant through their design. Now,

2262
02:17:39,275 --> 02:17:41,674
unlike land use process, which might have a

2263
02:17:41,674 --> 02:17:45,035
conditional approval that's customized, the fire code has

2264
02:17:45,035 --> 02:17:49,195
various routes to get to approval. The applicant

2265
02:17:49,195 --> 02:17:52,320
is allowed to choose those routes through their

2266
02:17:52,320 --> 02:17:55,920
design and plan review process and availability of

2267
02:17:55,920 --> 02:18:00,000
all the factors such as access, water, emergency

2268
02:18:00,000 --> 02:18:02,799
services, all those good factors that lead to

2269
02:18:02,799 --> 02:18:06,523
life safety. So they either will meet the

2270
02:18:06,523 --> 02:18:09,805
fire code or they won't. It is not

2271
02:18:09,885 --> 02:18:12,844
an issue that we chose to use a

2272
02:18:12,844 --> 02:18:15,484
condition of approval for. The condition is they

2273
02:18:15,484 --> 02:18:18,239
must meet the international fire code. It's already

2274
02:18:18,239 --> 02:18:20,398
been adopted by the county. So that's not

2275
02:18:20,398 --> 02:18:23,040
necessarily required to be a condition of approval,

2276
02:18:23,199 --> 02:18:25,279
but we have the comments of the fire

2277
02:18:25,279 --> 02:18:29,760
marshal and the fire district indicating that through

2278
02:18:29,760 --> 02:18:33,075
plan review, they will be required to meet

2279
02:18:33,075 --> 02:18:39,154
the existing laws. Okay, thank you. Anything else

2280
02:18:39,154 --> 02:18:46,959
from the county? No. All right, thank you.

2281
02:18:46,959 --> 02:18:49,680
And Mr. Joelman, any details from the applicant?

2282
02:18:49,680 --> 02:18:57,359
Yeah, if you So I'll just close out

2283
02:18:57,359 --> 02:19:00,559
my presentation first by thanking you Mr. Hearing

2284
02:19:00,559 --> 02:19:05,184
Examiner and members of staff. I thought this

2285
02:19:05,184 --> 02:19:10,385
was an exceptionally managed meeting and also wanna

2286
02:19:10,385 --> 02:19:15,120
thank the members of the public. I thought

2287
02:19:15,120 --> 02:19:18,400
the comments that were submitted were very articulate,

2288
02:19:18,400 --> 02:19:22,800
very well prepared and followed up. I appreciate

2289
02:19:22,800 --> 02:19:28,785
the testimony and the professionalism. And we also

2290
02:19:28,785 --> 02:19:31,105
understand that it is a, that you can

2291
02:19:31,425 --> 02:19:34,546
hear and sense the passion that people have,

2292
02:19:34,546 --> 02:19:38,626
especially when it's in their neighborhood and potentially

2293
02:19:39,025 --> 02:19:42,141
a project where there's gonna be change. But

2294
02:19:42,141 --> 02:19:44,700
I would wanna say, do feel compelled to

2295
02:19:44,860 --> 02:19:47,980
defend Mr. Irish here. There was a comment

2296
02:19:47,980 --> 02:19:52,780
made regarding perhaps this was driven simply by

2297
02:19:52,780 --> 02:19:56,065
a financial motive. And I can assure you

2298
02:19:56,065 --> 02:19:59,585
that if that was the case, Mr. Irish

2299
02:19:59,585 --> 02:20:02,145
would have abandoned this project a long time

2300
02:20:02,145 --> 02:20:05,745
ago. We have been involved for several years

2301
02:20:05,745 --> 02:20:10,399
now and I can wholeheartedly and truthfully say

2302
02:20:10,399 --> 02:20:12,479
this is not, this is something that he's

2303
02:20:12,479 --> 02:20:16,000
passionate about. He is very passionate about the

2304
02:20:16,000 --> 02:20:18,000
environment and about being a steward of the

2305
02:20:18,000 --> 02:20:21,695
environment. And I've known him long enough to

2306
02:20:21,695 --> 02:20:27,536
say that without any reservation. And also just,

2307
02:20:27,695 --> 02:20:30,735
like I said, we've heard the comments and

2308
02:20:30,976 --> 02:20:37,351
we take them seriously. We stand by the

2309
02:20:37,510 --> 02:20:39,830
professionals that have put together the reports and

2310
02:20:39,830 --> 02:20:42,149
the science that went in behind the design

2311
02:20:42,149 --> 02:20:45,270
and also the, even with the county, I

2312
02:20:45,270 --> 02:20:46,950
mean, there may be a sense that the

2313
02:20:46,950 --> 02:20:50,785
county just embraced what we had, but there

2314
02:20:50,785 --> 02:20:52,625
wasn't, that wasn't the case. We've had lots

2315
02:20:52,625 --> 02:20:56,465
of back and forth and they are, they

2316
02:20:56,465 --> 02:20:58,945
don't just represent the property owner, they also

2317
02:20:58,945 --> 02:21:01,425
represent the neighbors as well. And I feel

2318
02:21:01,425 --> 02:21:04,090
like they've done an exceptional job of following

2319
02:21:04,090 --> 02:21:08,010
the code and helping us navigate through some

2320
02:21:08,010 --> 02:21:13,130
of the changes that they requested. And with

2321
02:21:13,130 --> 02:21:15,770
that, would say that we would just respectfully

2322
02:21:15,770 --> 02:21:19,944
request that you, Mr. Harry Zammer approve the

2323
02:21:19,944 --> 02:21:25,305
project with subject to the any conditions that

2324
02:21:25,305 --> 02:21:31,385
you deem appropriate. And also to, again, say

2325
02:21:31,385 --> 02:21:34,240
that I'll be available after the meeting if

2326
02:21:34,240 --> 02:21:38,000
anyone wants to meet with me in person

2327
02:21:38,000 --> 02:21:41,040
and I can certainly pass along any thoughts

2328
02:21:41,040 --> 02:21:45,360
to the owner. But with that, I thank

2329
02:21:45,360 --> 02:21:48,325
you very much. I thank you, Mr. Jolma,

2330
02:21:48,325 --> 02:21:52,006
and thank you staff, and clearly thank members

2331
02:21:52,325 --> 02:21:54,165
of the public for being present and participating

2332
02:21:54,165 --> 02:21:57,766
today. I'm not rendering a decision nor am

2333
02:21:57,766 --> 02:22:00,165
I starting the clock on rendering the decision.

2334
02:22:00,620 --> 02:22:03,340
There's some things I need to receive in

2335
02:22:03,340 --> 02:22:05,660
order to have a fuller understanding of this

2336
02:22:05,660 --> 02:22:09,740
project, which will in turn allow some level

2337
02:22:09,740 --> 02:22:11,980
of additional public comment, kind of getting back

2338
02:22:11,980 --> 02:22:15,636
to one of Mr. Wall's comments. So some

2339
02:22:15,636 --> 02:22:17,235
of these things are for my benefit, but

2340
02:22:17,235 --> 02:22:20,436
they also deserve further public review before they

2341
02:22:20,436 --> 02:22:22,756
come back to me for hearing. So they

2342
02:22:22,756 --> 02:22:25,636
really fall into three categories, things I need

2343
02:22:25,636 --> 02:22:28,359
from the applicant, things I need from the

2344
02:22:28,359 --> 02:22:30,520
county and some things I need, I think

2345
02:22:30,520 --> 02:22:33,479
from the fire district. So as to the

2346
02:22:33,479 --> 02:22:35,560
applicant, I need a set of proposed rules

2347
02:22:35,560 --> 02:22:40,279
that intended tends to apply to the resort

2348
02:22:40,279 --> 02:22:43,655
if approved so that I could review those

2349
02:22:43,655 --> 02:22:47,335
and determine their completeness and their adequacy relative

2350
02:22:47,335 --> 02:22:52,135
to the requirement of the county's campground rule

2351
02:22:52,135 --> 02:22:54,775
that the project be compatible with all surrounding

2352
02:22:54,775 --> 02:22:58,710
uses. From the fire district, I would ask

2353
02:22:58,710 --> 02:23:01,431
the county to request to the fire district

2354
02:23:01,510 --> 02:23:06,550
its response to whether one, it would recommend

2355
02:23:06,550 --> 02:23:12,295
any on-site firefighting equipment in the form of

2356
02:23:12,295 --> 02:23:16,535
say a water reservoir. And if so, the

2357
02:23:16,535 --> 02:23:19,575
capacity of that reservoir and its capability in

2358
02:23:19,575 --> 02:23:22,855
terms of delivery. And so whether or not

2359
02:23:22,855 --> 02:23:27,940
the district would recommend that such a reservoir

2360
02:23:27,940 --> 02:23:30,660
be on-site? And if so, in what way

2361
02:23:30,660 --> 02:23:33,221
would it be utilized? And then I would

2362
02:23:33,221 --> 02:23:36,820
also recommend any other comments the district may

2363
02:23:36,820 --> 02:23:40,716
have as to an emergency plan for the

2364
02:23:41,355 --> 02:23:44,476
exiting of this facility in the event of

2365
02:23:44,476 --> 02:23:46,795
an emergency or the dealing with an emergency

2366
02:23:46,795 --> 02:23:50,636
in general. That really needs to come from

2367
02:23:50,636 --> 02:23:53,115
the district, which is a third party to

2368
02:23:53,115 --> 02:23:57,700
this process. And then of the county, there

2369
02:23:57,700 --> 02:24:00,341
are a couple of things that I would

2370
02:24:00,341 --> 02:24:03,301
like to see. I would like to see

2371
02:24:05,221 --> 02:24:08,875
from the health department confirmation that it will

2372
02:24:08,875 --> 02:24:11,115
regard this project as requiring a Class A

2373
02:24:11,115 --> 02:24:14,155
water system. I need to know if in

2374
02:24:14,155 --> 02:24:17,835
fact those standards will be applied so that

2375
02:24:17,835 --> 02:24:20,315
I can then determine whether by applying those

2376
02:24:20,315 --> 02:24:25,070
standards, that water adequacy and water safety are

2377
02:24:25,311 --> 02:24:28,030
fully met. And then I also need to

2378
02:24:28,030 --> 02:24:33,470
see a preliminary wastewater design to see not

2379
02:24:33,470 --> 02:24:36,735
only again, how it's dealing with the implementation

2380
02:24:36,735 --> 02:24:40,735
within a sensitive area, but secondly, what its

2381
02:24:40,735 --> 02:24:45,135
design capacity is and is its design capacity

2382
02:24:45,135 --> 02:24:48,655
consistent with the proposed size of use of

2383
02:24:48,655 --> 02:24:52,470
this property? Are we meshing with our different

2384
02:24:52,470 --> 02:24:57,750
regulations such that whatever we're saying, we're designing

2385
02:24:58,149 --> 02:25:00,630
environmentally is consistent with the size of the

2386
02:25:00,630 --> 02:25:04,375
crowd that might attend an event here. So

2387
02:25:04,375 --> 02:25:07,176
I need to see those things in order

2388
02:25:07,176 --> 02:25:09,895
to have a fuller and complete picture of

2389
02:25:09,895 --> 02:25:13,335
this project. And the question becomes the amount

2390
02:25:13,335 --> 02:25:17,050
of time needed to gather those things, because

2391
02:25:17,050 --> 02:25:21,210
I would then want to have a probably

2392
02:25:21,210 --> 02:25:25,770
ten day public response period once the deadline

2393
02:25:25,770 --> 02:25:28,730
for that, and then a follow-up hearing once

2394
02:25:28,730 --> 02:25:34,225
the public response period has expired. So I'll

2395
02:25:34,225 --> 02:25:37,745
turn to the county. Need its thoughts on

2396
02:25:37,745 --> 02:25:40,064
how long some of these things might take.

2397
02:25:40,064 --> 02:25:43,825
If I was to continue hold out a

2398
02:25:43,825 --> 02:25:46,785
deadline for submitting these things four weeks, six

2399
02:25:46,785 --> 02:25:52,040
weeks, Is that adequate enough? Does the county

2400
02:25:52,040 --> 02:25:55,080
have something else in mind as to length

2401
02:25:55,080 --> 02:25:56,921
of time that it may be needed to

2402
02:25:57,400 --> 02:25:59,400
gain not only what it has produced, but

2403
02:25:59,400 --> 02:26:01,320
what it needs to get from the fire

2404
02:26:01,320 --> 02:26:06,005
district? Mr. Kreitz or Mr. Trimble, I look

2405
02:26:06,005 --> 02:26:09,525
for your suggestions. Yeah, if we could just

2406
02:26:09,525 --> 02:26:11,125
have a minute to confer with the applicant.

2407
02:26:11,125 --> 02:28:20,561
You're entirely entitled to that. All right, Mr.

2408
02:28:20,561 --> 02:28:22,960
Schadmeyer, I believe we have conferred with the

2409
02:28:22,960 --> 02:28:26,160
applicant. We would settle on six or seven

2410
02:28:26,160 --> 02:28:31,040
weeks. Okay, let's say seven weeks deadline for

2411
02:28:31,040 --> 02:28:39,335
the production materials that I've requested. Seven weeks

2412
02:28:39,335 --> 02:28:42,375
from today, does someone have a ready calendar?

2413
02:29:06,364 --> 02:29:11,085
The week of October 27 maybe? Specific to

2414
02:29:12,204 --> 02:29:21,829
Monday would be what? The twenty seventh is

2415
02:29:21,829 --> 02:29:24,550
a Monday. I'm gonna set it for the

2416
02:29:24,550 --> 02:29:27,510
previous Friday just so we're not having an

2417
02:29:27,510 --> 02:29:31,495
unusual break date. Not Friday though. Yes, I'll

2418
02:29:31,495 --> 02:29:34,295
set a deadline of previous Friday, the twenty

2419
02:29:34,295 --> 02:29:40,855
fourth for the presentation materials. I'll allow public

2420
02:29:40,855 --> 02:29:46,900
comment for two weeks following that. And then

2421
02:29:46,980 --> 02:29:49,300
I'm not setting a hearing, a rehearing date

2422
02:29:49,300 --> 02:29:51,860
yet. I'll need to confirm with my calendar.

2423
02:29:51,940 --> 02:29:54,101
I'll have my assistant get back to the

2424
02:29:54,101 --> 02:29:56,755
county so that it can then announce publicly

2425
02:29:56,755 --> 02:30:01,234
the rehearing date shortly thereafter, shortly after the

2426
02:30:01,234 --> 02:30:04,675
two week response with some opportunity beyond it

2427
02:30:04,675 --> 02:30:06,835
for both the applicant and the county to

2428
02:30:06,835 --> 02:30:09,920
respond to the comment so that you're not

2429
02:30:09,920 --> 02:30:12,960
being blindsided at the hearing. So I hope

2430
02:30:12,960 --> 02:30:18,960
that's understandable, but I do want to again,

2431
02:30:19,040 --> 02:30:21,600
allow full opportunity of all these issues and

2432
02:30:21,600 --> 02:30:24,205
the opportunity for the public to respond. There

2433
02:30:24,205 --> 02:30:26,444
will be the opportunity for public testimony at

2434
02:30:26,444 --> 02:30:29,005
the hearing itself on these issues, not on

2435
02:30:29,005 --> 02:30:31,005
new issues, but on the issues in which

2436
02:30:31,165 --> 02:30:37,740
I'm requesting additional information. And so again, once

2437
02:30:37,740 --> 02:30:40,141
those materials have been provided, the public can

2438
02:30:40,141 --> 02:30:42,940
respond to the materials, not reopening the door

2439
02:30:42,940 --> 02:30:45,340
to other issues, but to those that I've

2440
02:30:45,340 --> 02:30:49,420
sought additional information for, and then we'll also

2441
02:30:49,976 --> 02:30:51,815
allow for a return to the hearing at

2442
02:30:51,815 --> 02:30:54,296
that time, which once that takes place, then

2443
02:30:54,296 --> 02:30:57,655
the clock starts on my rendering a decision.

2444
02:30:57,815 --> 02:31:00,136
I hope that's understandable to all the parties.

2445
02:31:00,695 --> 02:31:02,615
If the county has any questions, they can

2446
02:31:02,615 --> 02:31:05,990
get back to my assistant. And again, if

2447
02:31:05,990 --> 02:31:07,910
the public has any that can contact the

2448
02:31:07,910 --> 02:31:11,351
county to discuss, there's no direct contact with

2449
02:31:11,351 --> 02:31:13,431
me through that process. I do not speak

2450
02:31:13,431 --> 02:31:16,551
to any of the parties, including the county

2451
02:31:16,711 --> 02:31:18,950
as to an ongoing hearing once it's underway,

2452
02:31:20,575 --> 02:31:23,295
But there are those avenues for clarifying any

2453
02:31:23,295 --> 02:31:26,734
procedural questions, housekeeping questions about that. I wanna

2454
02:31:26,734 --> 02:31:31,215
thank everybody for well spoken, articulate, thoughtful comments

2455
02:31:31,215 --> 02:31:34,899
today. These are extremely important. I've taken copious

2456
02:31:34,899 --> 02:31:40,260
notes of all testimony. And again, we'll rely

2457
02:31:40,260 --> 02:31:42,819
upon these comments or this testimony is part

2458
02:31:42,819 --> 02:31:46,020
of my ultimate decision once I have everything

2459
02:31:46,340 --> 02:31:49,545
to be thinking about. Mr. Kreitzer, any last

2460
02:31:49,545 --> 02:31:53,545
things from the county's standpoint? None. Okay, Mr.

2461
02:31:53,545 --> 02:31:55,865
Joelma, any last things? All right, thank you.

2462
02:31:55,865 --> 02:31:57,225
And we are adjourned. Thanks.