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All right, we're going to open up our planning and zoning commission meeting for Monday, December 5th, 2016.

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Let's start with our call to order. Mr. Carney.

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Present. Ms. Hall. She's absent.

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Ms. McGridder. Present. Mr. Robeck. Present. Ms. Silverman.

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Friend, Mr. Hsu. It's absent at this time.

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City Attorney Carl Lumley. Present.

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Director of Community Development, Jason Jagge.

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Present.

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City Planner, Whitney Kelly.

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Present.

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And Planning Assistant, Recording Secretary, Jessica Stuttick.

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Please note that Ms. Hall is with us, is present.

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We're going to start with the acceptance of the agenda.

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We have a motion.

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Right, so moved.

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Second.

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Second.

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Just a rollback.

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All in favor?

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Aye.

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Aye.

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Aye.

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We have the minutes of our November 21, 2016 draft minutes, and also please note that Mr.

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Shue is present.

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If you all have had a chance to take a look at those minutes and if there have been changes

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through the motion to.

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I actually saw, I think it was agenda point five, the redesignation of the subdivision

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And the last point we went over, I don't think my aye vote

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was accounted for in the minutes.

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I didn't have anything recorded next to it.

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It's 0.5.

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Yeah, it is 0.

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Yes.

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That does need to be agreed.

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So we have a motion to amend that, a motion

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to approve the minutes as amended.

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Second.

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Second by Mr. Kearney.

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All in favor?

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Aye.

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Hi,

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just a point of way of time for public comment.

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If there's anybody who has a comment on something

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that is not on the agenda tonight, please come forward.

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If not, we'll go to our unfinished business, application

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number 16-030, conditional use permit

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and site building plan for a Panda Express restaurant

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with ride-through service, a 10, 453-dollar boulevard

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with free core, within Crete Core Pavilion Shopping

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Center.

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The applicant is requested to postpone the matter to the December 19th meeting, so a motion to continue the item would be necessary.

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I still move.

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It's like my Mr. Roeba.

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We'll take a vote, Mr. Hsu.

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I'm saying I'm refusing myself.

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Oh, I'm sorry, that's right.

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Ms. Hall.

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Mr. Carney.

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Hi.

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Mr. Roeba.

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Hi.

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Ms. Silverman.

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Hi.

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Ms. McGregor.

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I'm sure of her side.

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So

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I'll move to new business. We have a public hearing application number 16-031, a rezoning

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conditional use permit, a site development and boundary adjustment approval, with a mobile

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on the run convenience store with gas pumps and bright works, car wash facility located

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at 11.109 to 11.141 all of Boulevard and 11.100 to 11.114 Oakley Court currently zone GC

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general commercial and sees single-family residential. Any people who think they want to speak to

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this matter tonight, if you could come forward and be sworn in, I'll just make it a little

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faster when we get to the various points of comment during the evening.

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Thank

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you, good evening.

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If you can start with your name and address.

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Certainly will.

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My name is Kevin Camp.

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I'm with Civil and Environmental Consultants located in Hazelwood, Missouri.

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I'm here tonight representing Wallace companies.

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also with me are some several folks from Wallace and several members of the design team and tonight

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we're happy to and excited to present to you the plan for the redevelopment of the existing

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mobile gas station convenience store and car wash and Olive and Schulte the current station was

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constructed in the mid-80s and then Wallace acquired the sites in the early 90s when mobile

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sold their retail locations in this area to the Wallace family.

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So the goals of this development are to modernize the service offer.

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The convenience store there today is not only to provide the items or the offerings now expected

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by the consumer, and the proposed plan will provide for a new on-the-run concept convenience

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offering.

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The pump area will be enhanced with improved circulation and traffic flow around the

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pump islands, and the current automatic car wash on the facility will be replaced

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with a state-of-the-art bright works tunnel wash facility the owner is is

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further committing to the neighborhood by providing the high quality accessible

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redevelopment that is feasibly consistent with the design guidelines and

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the comprehensive plan while preserving enhancing the buffer between the

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adjacent residents and the major state RTL highway of all of our the

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The post site will reduce the current five full-access curb cuts onto Olive with one

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full-access location with right-out egress on the western portion of the site.

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The Schulte access will be slightly realigned and also will be constructed in order to

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prevent left-turn movements into the facility.

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The streetscape will provide for an enhanced pedestrian path that provides pedestrian openings

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along the way, and access to the site, and large areas of open space adjacent to that

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frontage will also provide ecstatic views from the passing traffic.

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It will also feature a small mean wall that is constructed along the right-of-way with

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with other street trees and other such elements along the street skate.

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So this is a generated video from our computer model that developed basically for the design

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of the site.

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And the site provides for some safe and clearly defined vehicular pathways, an ample room

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for backing, an ample room for circulation between the pumps, and the layout and the

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The openness, while not typically found with this type of use, separates

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the particular

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components but keeps them connected enough to appropriately share access and circulation.

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See, there's also circulation that is clear and separate entrance and exits for the wash.

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I'm talking faster than the video's moving.

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And I should note that careful design consideration was given to the locating the site elements

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and how they are positioned to create visual interest and provide for the expansive green

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spaces on the development.

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And this open space and area recognizes and bridges the needs of revitalizing the current

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uses with the guidelines for design and the concepts and the comprehensive plan.

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This figure here shows the intensity as a percentage building coverage per the site

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area.

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And as can be seen in the existing mobile site, which is in the lower left corner there,

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that represents about 12.3% of that site area of the existing site is made up and

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comprised of those buildings and what we did was okay you have the canopy you have

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the the sea store and you have the car wash if we look at the overall area that's

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to be redeveloped and included in the redevelopment effort that overall

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intensity or you know building area versus site areas around 13.1% and then

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that compared to the proposed development we're looking at about 11% of building

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coverage versus site area. It should be noted that the development overall has

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about 50% green space, actually about 54% green space.

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So building architecture, so

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high quality, low to no maintenance materials are being used to maintain the

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quality of the development for the city and the neighborhood. These natural

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materials, which I have a small sample board up here and we can pass that

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around consists of integral colors, split face bands,

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and these materials are used in concert

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with the massing to reduce the visual scale of the building

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and to make it more of a human scale.

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The materials are residential in scale, not commercial.

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Material changes also emphasize the horizontal lines,

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further reducing the visual scale of the building.

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Massing changes are not only to add the visual interest,

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but they help define the ends and the entrance of the building.

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These massing changes are done both horizontally and vertically to be more human scale.

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On the call wash side, it does utilize the same materials and the massing elements

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as far as the store to maintain some consistency and the visual connection

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between the two facilities as required by the design guidelines.

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lines. And we also have provided several connecting elements on the site, which also some of them

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act as vacuum stations.

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And these visually connect the two principal buildings on the

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site. And the building placement and the connecting elements on the site gives the

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development a sense of welcoming and community.

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So commercial buildings and residential

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have different architectural styles and characteristics

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in functional requirements.

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Creating a commercial neighborhood store,

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which looks commercial but feels residential in scale,

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is what has been achieved through the material scale

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and material selection in colors.

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But most importantly, by building placement

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in landscaped areas, similar to a park-like setting.

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The design planning process also considered

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several other important elements,

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and we can go through in detail

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any of these elements and answer all these questions but I think kind of

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playing off of what Jason had asked in your packets that you know that there's

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a lot a lot of elements that we have spent a long time kind of developing

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and so just trying to give a broad brush overview first so the

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landscaping made extensive use of the existing vegetation especially in

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the buffer areas and the buffer areas are also enhanced with new plant

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materials, a retaining wall, as well as a sound wall or masonry fence. Lighting has

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also been designed and pole heights and light levels have been adjusted to customize and

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customized for the security and safety needs for each component of the overall use while

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maintaining and being very cognizant of the adjacent neighbors. A noise study was

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also conducted with which concluded that the operation of the proposed redevelopment

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with the proposed elements of the fence and the topography will have no negative environmental noise impact on the adjacent properties

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Traffic study was also completed for this project by CBB and Lee Cannon. The CBB is here tonight

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If we want to get into further details about this this particular component

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But the commercial corridor of ala boulevard in Missouri State route 340 is a five-lane state maintained our tarot highway

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With high existing vines, especially during the peak hours and the study found the proposed site access

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We'll kind of go point-by-point in their study.

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On olive boulevard, we'll consolidate those five existing curb cuts into two.

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The new full-axis driveway will be further away from the signal.

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At Schulte again, we'll have separate exit lanes for both left and right-turn movements.

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And the throat of the stack and length will be about four to five cars.

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The second curb cut on olive will be a ride-out only.

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It's an egress mainly for the exiting car wash.

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The current access on Schulte, as I mentioned earlier, will be reduced to limit the north

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bound turns in from Schulte, and there is no access proposed from Oak Lake Court.

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The new mobile is expected to have an increase of onsite traffic, however, there is available

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capacity on olive and based on the convenience-oriented use of the high traffic levels, much of

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this out of traffic will be captured trips from the existing flows in the traffic that

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already exist on olive. Those captured trips will add to the terms in the site driveways

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but will not increase the traffic flows away from the site. Less out of the site directly

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on to olive will have during those highest delay periods have the option to make a

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ride on a Shelby and then utilize the light onto olive. Some of the, there are

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There are some signal timing changes that can be made to accommodate the additional traffic

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efficiency.

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And CBB has recommended potentially even changing the left-term signal heads to have

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some flashing yellow indicators, which will allow for larger green times on that shorty

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left-term.

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CBB also did recommend that we mark a pedestrian crossing on the west leg of Boulevard.

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and although findings of impact did not require any modifications to the existing

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intersection, the re-development just by planning perspective does propose an

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open space in the area nearest Schulte and Olive that could in the potential

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be future right-of-way in the event it would be needed for a future improved

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So the study itself has been reviewed by St. Louis County and the city's third party consultant,

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both of whom have concurred with the findings. MODOT has yet to officially respond.

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So this

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redevelopment side area has been in the works for, I think, nearly 10 years, honestly, with

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various uses, all of which contemplated far more intense, multi-tenant type of developments.

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We are thankful for the opportunity to seek your favorable recommendation for the development.

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We also very much appreciate the city staff, current and former, for meeting with this

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current design team in this current proposal for well over a year now, and it has really

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afforded us the opportunity to really listen, adjust, make some other modifications to the

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proposal as we've gone along.

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So with that, I'd be happy to answer any questions,

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understand the public here in nature.

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There's going to be some back and forth,

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but thank you for your time.

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For the applicant before we hear from Jason.

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Actually, you know what?

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I do have a, sorry, Jason, can I ask one question?

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I have some questions.

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Could you give a little information

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about how the size of this location

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would compare to the one in all of that,

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with which I think a lot of people here are familiar,

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including, you know, number of palms,

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number of amount of that area, acreage,

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that sort of thing.

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The site area itself is considered less,

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and this is from the site area of the island,

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and it's this is larger in acreage,

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12 acreage of tract that normally

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has different species.

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As far as how it compares to the alabaster,

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it's the same footprint except the differences

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This is an all event setting and they call wash game alone.

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All that internal circulation, everything goes in that

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whole bunch of holes in the back of the building.

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So, but the equipment interior in that car wash

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is very similar, the offerings inside of the store

244
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are very similar.

245
00:17:30,310 --> 00:17:32,450
The pump and the spacing is something that we would

246
00:17:32,450 --> 00:17:34,750
continue, that's something that we've done with

247
00:17:35,100 --> 00:17:36,950
a lot of new on-run facilities.

248
00:17:38,950 --> 00:17:40,530
It's similar to all that.

249
00:17:40,530 --> 00:17:42,930
So the number of pumps is the same?

250
00:17:43,450 --> 00:17:47,870
The number of pumps that are out of that, we have 18 here, and we have 10.

251
00:17:48,790 --> 00:17:51,310
So it's, what, 20 to 25 percent there?

252
00:17:52,810 --> 00:17:53,970
Yeah, 25 percent.

253
00:17:54,090 --> 00:17:57,410
And square footage of the convenience store?

254
00:17:58,010 --> 00:18:00,650
C store is the same as the previous one.

255
00:18:02,250 --> 00:18:02,990
It's smaller.

256
00:18:03,310 --> 00:18:04,910
A little bit smaller than out of that.

257
00:18:06,530 --> 00:18:07,190
Thank you.

258
00:18:20,100 --> 00:18:24,340
Good evening, Chair Kistner, members of Planning and Zoning Commission, Jason Jagger,

259
00:18:24,340 --> 00:18:27,740
Director of the Department of Community Development on behalf of the City of

260
00:18:27,740 --> 00:18:34,340
Creef Corp. I think Mr. Kemp provides you a good overview of the project in

261
00:18:34,340 --> 00:18:38,620
terms of the specific aspects of the development proposal and how that

262
00:18:38,620 --> 00:18:44,160
project may meet with the City's Comprehensive Plan and City's

263
00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:48,240
design guidelines. I thought it might be beneficial for you to kind of

264
00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:51,980
understand a little bit maybe of the context in terms of what's being

265
00:18:51,980 --> 00:18:57,120
requested this evening on for you to look at this is a rather complex

266
00:18:57,120 --> 00:19:01,720
proposal and that involves properties that encompass both city of pre-core

267
00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:06,540
within our city limits as well as the unincorporated sections of pre-core and

268
00:19:06,540 --> 00:19:10,600
also these properties have a mixture of zoning designations both inside the

269
00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:14,000
city limits as well as within unincorporate St. Louis County so I

270
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,660
thought it might be beneficial to kind of break down these various elements

271
00:19:17,660 --> 00:19:22,320
for you in a larger scale, and I'm certainly available to answer any questions you may have

272
00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:25,000
as we proceed through my presentation or afterwards.

273
00:19:25,380 --> 00:19:32,360
So, what we do, what staff's approach to this proposal, given the complexity, is we thought

274
00:19:32,360 --> 00:19:36,520
it would be important for the Commission to look at this project initially from a

275
00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:42,560
big-picture standpoint, namely in terms of, one, the rezoning, and two, the compliance

276
00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:46,480
with the proposal as it relates to the Comprehensive Plan's larger objectives for

277
00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:51,360
this area of the city. So as Mr. Kent mentioned, this proposal does include

278
00:19:51,360 --> 00:19:56,140
seven parcels. You can see here on the mat, although I don't think I have a

279
00:19:56,140 --> 00:20:00,500
pointer unfortunately, the red box does highlight seven, the project area which

280
00:20:00,500 --> 00:20:03,400
does contain seven parcels. You

281
00:20:07,210 --> 00:20:10,230
can see here, this is the proposed

282
00:20:10,230 --> 00:20:13,610
development area. These are the residential uses that are partially

283
00:20:13,610 --> 00:20:17,870
located in the city and then partially located on Incorporate County. The

284
00:20:17,870 --> 00:20:19,490
the same holds true for these properties

285
00:20:19,490 --> 00:20:23,510
that have a large degree of their frontages

286
00:20:23,510 --> 00:20:24,950
within the city of pre-core,

287
00:20:25,310 --> 00:20:27,170
but again, they're split with St. Louis County.

288
00:20:27,310 --> 00:20:29,710
So this boundary here is the city county limits,

289
00:20:30,170 --> 00:20:32,150
all this is county, all this is city.

290
00:20:34,390 --> 00:20:37,470
The applicant is proposing to rezone a portion of this

291
00:20:38,010 --> 00:20:40,390
and upon conclusion of the project,

292
00:20:40,390 --> 00:20:43,170
it would be located on one consolidated lot,

293
00:20:43,350 --> 00:20:45,770
so all this would be proposed to be consolidated

294
00:20:45,770 --> 00:20:49,710
it into one lot. That is also a request as in front of this evening.

295
00:20:52,690 --> 00:20:57,110
So in terms of the zoning overview, again, this is the applicant submitted this. I kind

296
00:20:57,110 --> 00:21:02,650
of touched it up a little bit just to further educate you on some of the context in terms

297
00:21:02,650 --> 00:21:06,910
of the rezoning question that's before you this evening. You can see here these are

298
00:21:06,910 --> 00:21:12,270
the properties. This is where the existing gas station sits on the existing parcel.

299
00:21:13,630 --> 00:21:17,770
and then you have the Cree-Pore portion to the north.

300
00:21:17,970 --> 00:21:19,350
There's also zone GC.

301
00:21:19,770 --> 00:21:23,730
These areas are right now currently zone GC as we stand today.

302
00:21:24,350 --> 00:21:29,590
The areas, the three parcels as we move further west on all of our zone residential,

303
00:21:30,610 --> 00:21:33,490
although I believe there is some commercial use in at least some of them,

304
00:21:33,530 --> 00:21:35,290
but they are zone residential right now.

305
00:21:35,630 --> 00:21:37,350
As we move on the south side of Olive,

306
00:21:37,750 --> 00:21:40,490
this map is a little out of date because it was pulled from our website

307
00:21:40,490 --> 00:21:45,050
which is not exactly current, but this is the most current version.

308
00:21:45,230 --> 00:21:48,330
We actually have this area zone GC as well.

309
00:21:48,710 --> 00:21:56,410
This is the Masonic Temple that was subject to a proposed use in association with the Goddard School.

310
00:21:56,690 --> 00:22:02,450
That project actually never resulted, however, the zoning, which was rezoned in conjunction

311
00:22:02,450 --> 00:22:04,570
with that development application, remains.

312
00:22:04,830 --> 00:22:08,870
So this is zone GC, this property here, and as we move for the West,

313
00:22:08,870 --> 00:22:13,210
the actual Goddard Street school location is also Zone GC.

314
00:22:14,190 --> 00:22:18,230
So that gives you a little bit of the context in terms of the zoning along this portion

315
00:22:18,230 --> 00:22:23,690
of Free Force is all GC and this is all single family residential through here.

316
00:22:24,850 --> 00:22:30,930
Based on that, if you look at the GC district in terms of the rezoning request, the purpose

317
00:22:30,930 --> 00:22:36,650
of the GC district is to accommodate convenience retail shopping and services and offices

318
00:22:36,650 --> 00:22:42,490
which are freestanding or part of a small-scale plan for partial development which are compatible

319
00:22:42,490 --> 00:22:49,350
in scale and intensive use with adjacent residential uses. That is the purpose of the GC district.

320
00:22:50,150 --> 00:22:54,570
And as I just described, there has been some history of rezoning some of these areas to

321
00:22:54,570 --> 00:23:01,110
the GC district based on development proposals that have come forward to the city.

322
00:23:04,410 --> 00:23:09,670
So in regards to the rezoning, I would say it's staffs, you know, and we touch on this in the staff report,

323
00:23:09,750 --> 00:23:15,470
but we definitely understand the pattern of rezoning some of these single families with frontages along Olive.

324
00:23:16,430 --> 00:23:22,710
But we do have some concerns with primarily two things with a rezoning request standing on its own.

325
00:23:23,230 --> 00:23:30,050
One is we would, with this proposal, we would have this property here, which is 11.

326
00:23:30,050 --> 00:23:37,550
One, I'm sorry, one one one four seven all the Boulevard right here that would not be subject to any rezoning that would remain residential

327
00:23:37,550 --> 00:23:43,210
And then obviously we have the the woodshire properties which are zone residentials now

328
00:23:43,210 --> 00:23:45,990
But those are a little more consistent with woodshire

329
00:23:45,990 --> 00:23:50,270
But this is one thing that we didn't notice that this re rezoning were to move forward

330
00:23:50,270 --> 00:23:57,490
We would have kind of a remnant parcel that would still have residential zoning, which means what's the future of that property?

331
00:23:57,490 --> 00:24:00,390
It's a bit of an unknown at this point.

332
00:24:02,190 --> 00:24:17,250
But what we also, when looking at rezoning, we think it's important for the commission to consider, you know, when we rezone properties, what are we rezoning it to, and what is the intent of the district into which it would be rezoned.

333
00:24:17,690 --> 00:24:24,610
And that's where I think we have some concerns with this development proposal and the scale that it is being presented this evening.

334
00:24:24,610 --> 00:24:29,650
So, that kind of touches base on the rezoning aspect of it.

335
00:24:29,650 --> 00:24:35,350
Specific to the development proposal, you have a conditional use in a site development plan application request,

336
00:24:35,590 --> 00:24:39,370
as well as a boundary or a subdivision plot that would consolidate all the parcels.

337
00:24:40,870 --> 00:24:45,570
Our 2002 Comprehensive Plan, which is our existing Comprehensive Plan,

338
00:24:46,310 --> 00:24:48,610
this area falls within the east aisle of Corridor.

339
00:24:48,610 --> 00:24:54,410
This is an area that calls for small businesses with residential character and substantial

340
00:24:54,410 --> 00:24:55,970
green space and landscaping.

341
00:24:56,690 --> 00:25:02,970
It also is part of a key area, a specific area of the 2002 plan called Area Number

342
00:25:02,970 --> 00:25:09,570
Two in East Olive, which also suggests that as this area redevolves, it shall remain

343
00:25:09,570 --> 00:25:14,190
commercial with neighborhood-oriented commercial, and it's also to maintain that compatibility

344
00:25:14,190 --> 00:25:16,110
with the adjacent residential area.

345
00:25:16,110 --> 00:25:19,390
So in the staff report, which you have in the applicant has as well,

346
00:25:19,490 --> 00:25:23,830
we've identified nine segments of the comprehensive plan,

347
00:25:23,990 --> 00:25:26,790
nine policies, and we evaluated this project

348
00:25:26,790 --> 00:25:28,230
based on those nine policies.

349
00:25:29,030 --> 00:25:30,990
I won't go into each one of those, but I'll just try

350
00:25:30,990 --> 00:25:32,470
to summarize that for you this evening.

351
00:25:32,730 --> 00:25:34,310
And if you have specific questions,

352
00:25:34,310 --> 00:25:36,070
we're available to respond to those.

353
00:25:37,330 --> 00:25:39,850
I also wanted to touch on, and the staff report touches

354
00:25:39,850 --> 00:25:41,770
on the 2030 comprehensive plan,

355
00:25:41,770 --> 00:25:43,610
which is obviously under development.

356
00:25:43,610 --> 00:25:46,910
It's been part of your review for the last several months.

357
00:25:47,490 --> 00:25:49,970
And in a nutshell, that plan basically

358
00:25:49,970 --> 00:25:53,670
emphasizes the existing policies of the 2002 plan,

359
00:25:53,990 --> 00:25:57,030
but further those to accentuate or to recommend

360
00:25:57,030 --> 00:25:59,110
additional walkability within the district,

361
00:25:59,690 --> 00:26:02,010
but to essentially remain neighborhood-oriented

362
00:26:02,410 --> 00:26:05,930
and service-type businesses with the introduction of also

363
00:26:05,930 --> 00:26:08,050
multifamily as a possibility.

364
00:26:09,290 --> 00:26:10,910
Envisioned that the east quarter

365
00:26:10,910 --> 00:26:15,150
could be part of a larger rezoning in the future as well, based on an implementation

366
00:26:15,150 --> 00:26:21,430
strategy of the plan, where, you know, this area, if it were to proceed as we're discussing

367
00:26:22,090 --> 00:26:27,030
as under review, this area could be subject to a new zoning potentially as an implementation

368
00:26:27,030 --> 00:26:27,490
measure.

369
00:26:28,550 --> 00:26:34,170
So as we, as I've described, both of the comprehensive plans, the one official plan

370
00:26:34,170 --> 00:26:40,810
and then the plan that we are under review, how does this application comport to those

371
00:26:40,810 --> 00:26:41,210
ideals?

372
00:26:41,390 --> 00:26:42,910
How does it match up with that?

373
00:26:43,570 --> 00:26:45,550
And this is where we have a little bit of a concern.

374
00:26:46,490 --> 00:26:52,530
One is on the pro side, the plan calls for pedestrian amenities, landscape buffers adjacent

375
00:26:52,530 --> 00:26:53,710
to residential areas.

376
00:26:54,230 --> 00:27:00,030
By and large, this application seems to meet with that on a bigger scale.

377
00:27:00,590 --> 00:27:03,470
Also, the plan calls for saving some mature trees

378
00:27:03,470 --> 00:27:05,270
and incorporating that into a site plan.

379
00:27:05,810 --> 00:27:07,870
We think the applicant has also done a good job

380
00:27:07,870 --> 00:27:08,570
with that as well.

381
00:27:08,730 --> 00:27:11,430
But those are relatively minor issues.

382
00:27:11,570 --> 00:27:13,910
Our larger issues basically boil down

383
00:27:13,910 --> 00:27:15,850
to the scale and intensity of the proposal.

384
00:27:17,090 --> 00:27:18,830
If you look at the comprehensive plan,

385
00:27:18,990 --> 00:27:21,630
it clearly states that it's supposed

386
00:27:21,630 --> 00:27:23,930
to be compatible with the residential character

387
00:27:23,930 --> 00:27:25,170
of all the Boulevard.

388
00:27:25,550 --> 00:27:27,950
Calls for smaller retail and service businesses

389
00:27:27,950 --> 00:27:29,930
that cater to surrounding residences.

390
00:27:30,790 --> 00:27:33,490
It also encourages residential design elements

391
00:27:33,490 --> 00:27:35,810
to be incorporated as much as possible

392
00:27:36,230 --> 00:27:40,170
with proposals that are in the commercial portion

393
00:27:40,170 --> 00:27:41,410
of the East Olive Corridor.

394
00:27:42,470 --> 00:27:47,210
And it could be questioned as to whether this proposal meets

395
00:27:47,210 --> 00:27:50,390
with the scale and intensity of use's question

396
00:27:50,390 --> 00:27:52,570
of the comprehensive plan and one

397
00:27:52,570 --> 00:27:55,750
that respects the adjacent residential areas.

398
00:27:56,710 --> 00:28:02,250
In terms of design guidelines, we did not prepare a detailed design guideline review

399
00:28:02,250 --> 00:28:07,950
for you at this time based upon discussion of some of the larger issues, but we did have

400
00:28:07,950 --> 00:28:12,170
a few concerns and I'll just touch on those just in general, you know, the use of EFIS,

401
00:28:12,870 --> 00:28:17,770
the kind of corporate architecture look of the proposed submittal, as well as it doesn't

402
00:28:17,770 --> 00:28:24,070
seem to incorporate some bit of a residential design element that the comp plan seems

403
00:28:24,070 --> 00:28:29,030
to call for. Mr. Camp addressed the traffic impact study. I don't think staff has any

404
00:28:29,030 --> 00:28:35,090
other comments at this point. You do have the CBB report. You also have the report from

405
00:28:35,090 --> 00:28:39,570
GBA, which is a city's traffic consultant. By and large, there are some recommendations,

406
00:28:39,710 --> 00:28:46,210
but those can be met. It appears with the proposed project. Now, the sound study

407
00:28:46,210 --> 00:28:51,770
as well, we did receive that, and we haven't really analyzed that to a great degree

408
00:28:51,770 --> 00:28:55,810
at this time, but we can certainly answer any questions you may have regarding those two

409
00:28:55,810 --> 00:28:56,890
documents at this time.

410
00:28:57,890 --> 00:29:07,210
So in regard to the motions, you do have this will be discussed, obviously, and then you

411
00:29:07,210 --> 00:29:12,170
do have some motions that will need to be voted upon separately, and we can assist in

412
00:29:12,170 --> 00:29:14,710
that as you move further in the proceedings this evening.

413
00:29:14,890 --> 00:29:15,730
I think I'll stop there.

414
00:29:15,810 --> 00:29:18,090
If there's any questions, I'd be happy to answer those at this time.

415
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:43,040
I think if not, I'd like to hear from there's obviously a substantial amount of interest from my personal residents, the areas around.

416
00:29:44,140 --> 00:29:48,400
So I think this would be a good time. I don't have any speaker cards.

417
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:57,320
So, I think, first of all, there were a few people who did, who were sworn in.

418
00:29:59,100 --> 00:29:59,920
They don't have a way of knowing.

419
00:30:08,980 --> 00:30:14,760
If you have already been sworn in, then if you could just start with your name and address.

420
00:30:15,420 --> 00:30:20,640
I'm Cheryl Richards, I'm just one second too, especially because we have a lot of people.

421
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:27,820
We have a tradition of three minutes, so I don't have a clock on me, but if everybody could just be sort of cognizant of that.

422
00:30:27,820 --> 00:30:34,760
Okay my name is Cheryl Richards I live at 842 Mary Meadows Lane and the issues

423
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:40,760
that I just wanted to make sure we're addressed had to do with the traffic the

424
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:45,920
first one is the whole issue of going straight through that intersection with

425
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:53,660
Mary Meadows because it's hard to do at this point it said on page 23 and one

426
00:30:53,660 --> 00:30:56,200
these things that it's a de facto right turn,

427
00:30:56,460 --> 00:30:59,440
lean to go on to all of them and that is true.

428
00:30:59,700 --> 00:31:03,800
If you're in the lean and you want to go straight

429
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:05,880
into Mary Meadows, cars honk at you

430
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:07,720
because they can't believe that anybody

431
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:09,340
would actually want to go straight.

432
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:12,740
And I do not even try to go straight

433
00:31:12,740 --> 00:31:16,020
from Mary Meadows through because of all the left turn,

434
00:31:16,460 --> 00:31:19,620
turning cars that it seems like it's too dangerous.

435
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:22,600
So that's one issue in terms of

436
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:24,920
with how to address some of that.

437
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,060
The second issue is how to make sure

438
00:31:28,060 --> 00:31:31,060
that the traffic is not going to go into the gas station

439
00:31:31,060 --> 00:31:32,360
from the Schultz side.

440
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,740
We have a exit only sign on Mary Meadows

441
00:31:35,740 --> 00:31:38,820
for the commercial strip that goes off of Mary Meadows

442
00:31:38,820 --> 00:31:41,740
and people are not following that at all.

443
00:31:42,260 --> 00:31:45,380
They go in when it's convenient for them

444
00:31:45,380 --> 00:31:47,840
and so I'm not quite sure how it is

445
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:49,660
that this is going to get in force.

446
00:31:49,660 --> 00:31:56,200
And the third thing that I was wondering about, because we had gone through the issues with

447
00:31:56,200 --> 00:32:01,720
Walgreens and Fifth Third Bank at the top of Mary Meadows and Olive, was whether MODOT

448
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:08,380
is really going to agree to doing something in terms of changing how much time is allocated

449
00:32:08,380 --> 00:32:10,960
in the traffic lights for Olive.

450
00:32:11,220 --> 00:32:15,900
I thought historically they were really not in favor of reducing the time.

451
00:32:15,900 --> 00:32:21,120
And right now with the cars that are turning left from Schulte on to Olive,

452
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:25,340
it's really dangerous if you're making a right turn from Mary Meadows.

453
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:30,760
There's now no right turn, so you're kind of turning right at the same time

454
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:34,400
that they're turning left, and it's really complicated.

455
00:32:34,820 --> 00:32:39,540
We are still training our young drivers on our streets to be very,

456
00:32:39,580 --> 00:32:42,820
very careful whenever they go out into the Olive intersection.

457
00:32:42,820 --> 00:32:47,920
I'm just kind of concerned about having more traffic at that intersection.

458
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:50,140
Thank you very much.

459
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:50,640
Thank you.

460
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:51,040
Thank you.

461
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:51,400
Thank you.

462
00:32:56,290 --> 00:32:56,810
Speaker?

463
00:33:04,980 --> 00:33:06,100
And have you been…

464
00:33:06,100 --> 00:33:06,260
Sure.

465
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:11,080
And start with your name and address, please.

466
00:33:11,780 --> 00:33:13,060
My name is Mark Huck.

467
00:33:13,220 --> 00:33:14,600
I live at 906 Woodshire.

468
00:33:16,820 --> 00:33:17,860
And my

469
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:25,760
property's right here.

470
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:35,100
I guess just the first…

471
00:33:35,100 --> 00:33:40,100
Yes, my house sits right about here.

472
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,760
Woodchire Lane is not shown here.

473
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,440
It's just to the west of the property.

474
00:33:48,820 --> 00:33:53,700
A few points, I think it was very well noted

475
00:33:53,700 --> 00:33:56,780
that I really don't know how this development fits

476
00:33:56,780 --> 00:33:59,560
within the spirit of the comprehensive plan

477
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:03,920
as far as small businesses with residential character.

478
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,700
I mean, it's just a massive plot.

479
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,640
Secondly, of course, I think all of us on Wicharalain

480
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:13,680
are concerned about the additional traffic.

481
00:34:14,340 --> 00:34:17,940
And especially for those who live

482
00:34:17,940 --> 00:34:22,220
towards the south end of Wicharalain,

483
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,920
my guess is there's going to be additional lights

484
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,840
because of the gas pumps, the parking lot,

485
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:43,840
the area where the the vacuums are. Additionally there are three lanes wide of

486
00:34:44,420 --> 00:34:52,080
cars that line up for the car wash and you know as they're turning and coming in

487
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:53,960
they're going to be shoot right onto our property.

488
00:34:55,970 --> 00:34:57,090
There was an elevation

489
00:34:57,090 --> 00:34:57,790
study,

490
00:35:00,060 --> 00:35:05,560
I guess, I don't know if I would call it a study, when we met a couple of

491
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:11,960
months ago, the people from mobile work had some elevations done, but we really

492
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:15,560
didn't get time to get into what effect it would have on everybody, so that's

493
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:24,440
just another concern. I guess lastly, when you're trying to turn into what

494
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:37,660
our lane coming from the west. We have to rely on the light at Shoalty and when the traffic

495
00:35:37,660 --> 00:35:43,760
is stopped by a red light then typically there's a number of cars coming off of Shoalty that

496
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:51,260
are heading west and a few cars come out of the mobile on the run so it can be quite

497
00:35:51,260 --> 00:35:53,860
to bear sometimes trying to get into which are laying.

498
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:58,720
And I really, I would guess they're doing this

499
00:35:58,720 --> 00:36:01,700
because they anticipate having more cars coming in and out.

500
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,760
And I don't know how that's going to help our situation.

501
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:11,860
Additionally, where the existing entrances and exits

502
00:36:11,860 --> 00:36:12,720
are to the mobile,

503
00:36:15,350 --> 00:36:20,230
they're the first one is set up.

504
00:36:20,230 --> 00:36:23,010
And these are rough numbers based off of Google.

505
00:36:24,470 --> 00:36:28,410
735 feet before you can turn into the first entrance, and then

506
00:36:28,410 --> 00:36:31,670
about 850 feet before you can turn into the second entrance.

507
00:36:32,310 --> 00:36:35,810
So that means cars that are traveling eastbound are

508
00:36:35,810 --> 00:36:39,230
starting to pull over into the center lane, which means,

509
00:36:39,450 --> 00:36:42,910
of course, if you're trying to get out of Woodshire, you

510
00:36:42,910 --> 00:36:48,570
can't because you have cars that are in the left-hand

511
00:36:48,570 --> 00:36:53,930
lane heading east and of course you can't pull into the center lane that's

512
00:36:53,930 --> 00:36:58,570
against the law to pull into the center lane and then try to merge on to these

513
00:36:58,570 --> 00:37:05,550
bottom lanes. So with the new proposal when the traffic stops here of course

514
00:37:05,550 --> 00:37:10,650
you're going to have people coming off a shoalty then you're going to have

515
00:37:10,650 --> 00:37:17,810
an exit that is going to be 660 feet from Woodshire then another one

516
00:37:17,810 --> 00:37:19,430
And that's going to be 340 feet.

517
00:37:21,290 --> 00:37:24,090
And I can just, you know, the concern

518
00:37:24,090 --> 00:37:26,890
is there's going to be, as soon as traffic is stopped here,

519
00:37:26,950 --> 00:37:29,570
there's going to be a constant flow of people coming out

520
00:37:29,570 --> 00:37:31,430
of the mobile station and out of Schulte Road.

521
00:37:31,990 --> 00:37:33,310
And you're never going to be able to cross.

522
00:37:33,870 --> 00:37:36,770
So I don't know how these studies are done.

523
00:37:37,450 --> 00:37:39,930
But, you know, from a practical standpoint,

524
00:37:40,330 --> 00:37:42,810
those would be my concerns as far as additional traffic.

525
00:37:43,310 --> 00:37:43,550
We

526
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:52,620
have other residents,

527
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:55,940
people in the audience

528
00:37:55,940 --> 00:37:56,700
who wish to speak.

529
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:10,760
I live down from Mark Huck on 9.10 Woodshire, which would be just north of his property.

530
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:15,640
I also have a parcel line that backs up close to this adjacent property.

531
00:38:16,240 --> 00:38:26,040
You know, I think one thing I just want to expand upon what Mark says is if you look at what the existing businesses are there today, we're taking a vast jump from what that is.

532
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:43,800
We're talking about businesses that operate during normal business hours where we would have residents the way they are now with businesses shutting down during the normal business hours here, we will have a gas station, as Mark said, with life traffic and sound beyond those normal business hours.

533
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:51,520
And I think that's something that definitely needs to be taken into account when looking at this as you compare to the surrounding residential areas.

534
00:38:52,480 --> 00:39:07,180
The other part, I'd be interested to see where some of the comparative numbers were drawn from as far as visits in the mobile numbers, to see if it's in the similar situated mobile stations.

535
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:15,600
I think one of the reasons that they're looking to expand upon this mobile station is to capture some of the city place traffic in the city place.

536
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:21,120
So my guess is what you would see here is a significant jump in the visitation.

537
00:39:21,940 --> 00:39:26,320
Also, the comparisons on the number of things that weren't discussed,

538
00:39:26,660 --> 00:39:32,000
things surrounding the car wash, the number of vacuums,

539
00:39:32,220 --> 00:39:38,060
and all of those type of situations that actually increased the size of this plot drastically.

540
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:43,920
And so, in looking at all of that, I think the number one thing,

541
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,520
In the other part I didn't see, I saw a mention of a light study.

542
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:54,720
I don't know that has that been published or something that we could see as to the results

543
00:39:54,720 --> 00:39:55,040
of that.

544
00:39:56,520 --> 00:40:03,000
And so I saw the traffic and I saw the sound, but how that light study, what the results

545
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:06,100
of that light study were, I'd like to see those if at all possible.

546
00:40:06,620 --> 00:40:07,940
They were on the C's website.

547
00:40:08,380 --> 00:40:08,700
They were.

548
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:09,020
Okay.

549
00:40:09,180 --> 00:40:09,480
Thank you.

550
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:10,140
We

551
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:20,820
have a lot of people, we

552
00:40:23,540 --> 00:40:24,280
have a lot of interest,

553
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,260
we have a lot of interest, but not necessarily speakers.

554
00:40:28,580 --> 00:40:28,920
OK.

555
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:34,940
With that, I think it's 30 questions

556
00:40:34,940 --> 00:40:39,500
that anyone here has for, yes?

557
00:40:39,720 --> 00:40:40,620
I have one small one.

558
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:47,720
On the photometric study, which I did not look at that

559
00:40:47,720 --> 00:40:54,300
Usually what I see in those are the levels of intensity as you go both directions along the site.

560
00:40:55,120 --> 00:41:05,040
Is there also, in terms of selection of light standards and fixtures, cutoff angles that are going to preclude spillage of light

561
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:10,180
so that if you're standing off from the site, you're not looking into bright lights?

562
00:41:10,260 --> 00:41:16,500
We've seen sites that have had good control of the general lighting intensity but bad control

563
00:41:16,500 --> 00:41:19,900
and they're not all, not necessarily the Crete Corps,

564
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:23,980
but others along Olive that I've seen that as you drive by,

565
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:26,640
you're looking into some very, very intense lighting.

566
00:41:26,940 --> 00:41:27,160
Yeah.

567
00:41:27,460 --> 00:41:29,380
So that's one of the things I'd like to ask.

568
00:41:29,380 --> 00:41:33,660
Yeah, so you're right on the photometrics, so yeah.

569
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:40,560
We do comply with the code that the foot handles

570
00:41:41,100 --> 00:41:43,700
as predicted and measured and all that meet there.

571
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:45,480
So the other thing that we did,

572
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:48,800
And then Mr. Hoppe actually talked about we,

573
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:52,160
and I showed you a video from this plan that we did.

574
00:41:53,260 --> 00:41:58,720
We did some, both along Oak Lake and Woodshire,

575
00:41:59,060 --> 00:42:02,800
and then we're proposing this masonry wall,

576
00:42:03,660 --> 00:42:05,820
or what's called the masonry fence,

577
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:08,760
just to keep the terminology correct.

578
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:10,220
And that sits at the top, actually,

579
00:42:10,720 --> 00:42:12,980
a retaining wall as well.

580
00:42:12,980 --> 00:42:28,720
So what we did is, we modeled the top of this wall to be such that along Oak Lake, as you do get a small look into the site from back there, that you would not be able to see the underside of the canopy.

581
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:29,420
That's right.

582
00:42:30,180 --> 00:42:31,000
So you get cut off.

583
00:42:31,780 --> 00:42:32,280
Correct.

584
00:42:32,860 --> 00:42:39,260
And then additionally, we spent a good amount of time really in this car wash area, which is not open 24 hours.

585
00:42:39,260 --> 00:42:46,760
it's a 7 a.m. to 8 p.m. operation. We really customize the lighting to be only

586
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:51,220
effective enough for security concerns and those types of things on those off

587
00:42:51,220 --> 00:42:56,840
hours. Additionally the site configuration, the building itself is

588
00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:01,780
going to block this canopy from traversing west into the the

589
00:43:01,780 --> 00:43:05,860
and the fence continues all the way around to meet that building as well.

590
00:43:06,240 --> 00:43:06,920
Thank you.

591
00:43:08,380 --> 00:43:11,400
Oh, and had that, yeah, I'm sorry, in the headlight part as well,

592
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:15,600
as you're coming into the, you know, the pay station area,

593
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:18,240
that fence there is going to block.

594
00:43:18,780 --> 00:43:22,300
In tradition, and there's also a good amount of rain

595
00:43:22,300 --> 00:43:24,280
between the two.

596
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:27,760
How tall was that fence?

597
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:36,560
It's six to eight feet and as we further refine that this particular masonry sound wall fence,

598
00:43:36,940 --> 00:43:40,660
it's very, it's like a stone facade looking thing we've used it on.

599
00:43:40,980 --> 00:43:43,540
It's the same fence that's at the all of that facility.

600
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:45,600
It can go up to 10 foot in height.

601
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:51,340
So as we start finalizing grades and get into construction documents, we're not limited at they,

602
00:43:51,460 --> 00:43:56,540
but if there are areas that, you know, to prevent things like seeing the underside of the canopy

603
00:43:56,540 --> 00:43:58,820
of being those kind of things we can add to it.

604
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,220
With general and a specific question,

605
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:06,300
and it may be better answered by staff,

606
00:44:06,420 --> 00:44:08,480
but if you have an answer, I'm open to hearing it.

607
00:44:09,620 --> 00:44:14,300
Any idea where the nearest gas stations are in relation

608
00:44:14,300 --> 00:44:15,440
to the proposed site?

609
00:44:16,140 --> 00:44:18,180
And then my question for staff is

610
00:44:18,180 --> 00:44:21,620
going to be about whether there's

611
00:44:21,620 --> 00:44:27,940
any averages per capita or per square mileage about whether

612
00:44:27,940 --> 00:44:32,660
there's an average number of gas stations for those measures?

613
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:37,360
Well, typically, I don't think it's to have adjacent.

614
00:44:37,860 --> 00:44:41,740
Definitely if there's particular statistics for Creve Corp.

615
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:45,300
But right now, the closest gas station is right here

616
00:44:45,300 --> 00:44:46,940
in the corner where we're currently located.

617
00:44:47,340 --> 00:44:51,700
There's one that's the Circle K. That's the Shell.

618
00:44:52,720 --> 00:44:57,140
Going west, there's a facility right at Alvin Ballast.

619
00:44:57,140 --> 00:44:59,440
and I'm sure you guys are familiar with how.

620
00:45:00,020 --> 00:45:04,160
Challenging that can be to get in and out, because that is a small parcel property.

621
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:12,200
You know, and as far as locations of convenience stores, along a, you know, heavily traveled,

622
00:45:12,340 --> 00:45:19,240
probably one of the larger arteries of the state route through the community on Olive

623
00:45:19,240 --> 00:45:23,000
is a logical place that, you know, generally that's where they will locate.

624
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:26,800
And did that answer your question?

625
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:28,300
How about for car washes?

626
00:45:29,720 --> 00:45:37,580
Car washes, in this particular, well, in all of that, it's, you know, I don't know.

627
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:44,120
They're a neighborhood use, so this is not a destination type of thing

628
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:46,860
where you're going to get people from all over the county

629
00:45:46,860 --> 00:45:48,520
going to this particular car wash.

630
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:54,740
I mean, this is a neighborhood use, and that's why we feel like this is still a strong place

631
00:45:54,740 --> 00:45:55,080
to be.

632
00:45:55,200 --> 00:46:01,400
It serves the significantly large residential community, immediately adjacent behind, across,

633
00:46:02,100 --> 00:46:06,100
and up and down Olive, and so this is not like a type of destination.

634
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:10,880
So as far as where they're located, and especially the style type, price points,

635
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:16,040
all those things, are really the demands of, serving the demands of the community

636
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:18,040
that's there, and that's how it's...

637
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:20,610
I have a question.

638
00:46:21,170 --> 00:46:21,430
Yes, sir.

639
00:46:22,150 --> 00:46:24,570
Has the study been done trying

640
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:27,280
to determine

641
00:46:27,740 --> 00:46:31,500
what the traffic will be in and out of this particular site

642
00:46:31,500 --> 00:46:33,940
that after it's built, it's going to bring a lot more

643
00:46:33,940 --> 00:46:35,640
traffic than we now see.

644
00:46:35,780 --> 00:46:37,300
I would imagine, has the study been done?

645
00:46:37,460 --> 00:46:37,700
Yes.

646
00:46:38,260 --> 00:46:40,540
And actually, I'll let Lee kind of address that.

647
00:46:41,060 --> 00:46:42,980
If we want to talk about traffic for a little bit,

648
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:44,400
I can get it pulled up here, too.

649
00:46:47,020 --> 00:46:47,480
Is that where we?

650
00:46:48,780 --> 00:46:52,400
So do we want to get into the detail of traffic

651
00:46:53,160 --> 00:47:03,960
I think the first thing for us to decide is there's sort of the larger issue of is the

652
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:10,940
plan itself consistent enough with our comprehensive plan?

653
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:15,760
Do we want to get into the detail of the building materials in the town?

654
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:17,180
I'll just draw my question for now.

655
00:47:17,700 --> 00:47:19,980
And I'm not suggesting you need to.

656
00:47:19,980 --> 00:47:33,160
But my thought was that we should address the sort of that threshold question of is this something that we want to work with and kind of, you know, get into that detail?

657
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:41,000
Does it meet the threshold criteria for something that fits and that we want to, you know, consider and move forward on?

658
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:47,720
Okay, I have something about that, two thousand and thirty comprehensive plan we've been working

659
00:47:47,720 --> 00:47:55,980
on for a year, reads the vision of East Hollywood is to create a walkable corridor of destination

660
00:47:56,560 --> 00:48:02,080
retail both in the neighborhood service business, small scale restaurants and attached townhomes

661
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:04,260
and a low density multi-family homes.

662
00:48:04,580 --> 00:48:07,760
I don't see this as the same thing at all.

663
00:48:09,460 --> 00:48:16,700
So it doesn't feel like, to me, it's where we're trying to go in that area in the upcoming

664
00:48:17,300 --> 00:48:18,200
comprehensive plan.

665
00:48:18,660 --> 00:48:22,460
I sort of hate to think we spent all that time on the comprehensive plan that ignored it.

666
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:29,900
And I guess, you know, because we, in looking through and going through the design challenges

667
00:48:29,900 --> 00:48:36,580
of the site, those are things that we considered as well as the forward thinking comprehensive

668
00:48:36,580 --> 00:48:37,180
plan.

669
00:48:37,180 --> 00:48:40,900
And that is why the expansive green space,

670
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:46,280
this is a neighborhood service that's here now

671
00:48:46,670 --> 00:48:49,360
and looking to modernize those service offerings.

672
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:55,320
Going from a smaller site to allow for the expansion

673
00:48:55,320 --> 00:49:00,780
to of those services and increasing the ability

674
00:49:00,780 --> 00:49:04,900
for more modern conveniences that you would find

675
00:49:04,900 --> 00:49:11,280
at newer stations. We feel like by providing like those pocket parts those

676
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:16,240
expansive green spaces along that streetscape breaks up some of that

677
00:49:16,240 --> 00:49:19,940
intensity and actually lets us have less coverage site coverage from a building

678
00:49:19,940 --> 00:49:25,920
perspective on the overall site than exists now. You know architecturally

679
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:30,660
well you know we do have residential elements within it like the trellis

680
00:49:30,660 --> 00:49:33,760
over the connecting elements and things like that that start to tie in some

681
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:37,940
of the residential, you know, there exist in the corridor

682
00:49:37,940 --> 00:49:39,800
like Scotsman's and things like that,

683
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:43,580
there are commercial structures that's a community service

684
00:49:43,580 --> 00:49:46,660
and a community business that's oriented

685
00:49:46,660 --> 00:49:48,560
to the community or the community, so.

686
00:49:52,540 --> 00:49:54,260
Well, just a quick question, I look forward,

687
00:49:54,620 --> 00:49:56,560
maybe I overlooked if it didn't see it,

688
00:49:57,100 --> 00:50:00,240
in the various site plans, say, beginning

689
00:50:00,240 --> 00:50:02,600
with a demo plan, maybe you could expand on that,

690
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:09,340
Is there one where the proposed plan is superimposed on the existing site?

691
00:50:10,420 --> 00:50:16,500
I was looking for it, and I can say I may have overlooked it, but that sometimes answers a lot of these kind of questions.

692
00:50:16,740 --> 00:50:26,880
If I don't have it in this package, I do not think that's included in your packet, but I think I have something.

693
00:50:36,580 --> 00:50:43,840
I do also have this that I can probably toggle back and forth on here so this is the the existing

694
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:51,200
site so you can see this is kind of where the landscape business operates now this is a moving

695
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:56,860
company type of thing the business operates here there's a little hatched

696
00:50:56,860 --> 00:50:59,940
area that's a deed restricted area that's going to remain as is and

697
00:50:59,940 --> 00:51:06,460
vegetated as is and then this is that these are the three houses which are

698
00:51:06,460 --> 00:51:11,320
part in the county part in the city and then this of course is the existing

699
00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:19,720
mobile station. This is the station of the car wash. Right. And then this is then the proposed site.

700
00:51:22,980 --> 00:51:30,280
So the this building here is no closer than the residents are now and actually even from a great

701
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:36,700
perspective everything along here stays in tap all the way up into the edges of the fence. So

702
00:51:36,700 --> 00:51:43,040
that way we're preserving trees and then we're protecting with some a little bit of topography

703
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:48,160
changes as well as the additional wall to help further keep even out of boulevard

704
00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:55,360
noise from leading back through. Did that help? Yes it does. I think a lot of these,

705
00:51:55,500 --> 00:52:00,820
particularly when we want to look at what the impact is, I like to compare what do

706
00:52:00,820 --> 00:52:05,900
we have now and what direction these make us. Would it be helpful if we provided a

707
00:52:05,900 --> 00:52:07,580
a plan that kind of related to for you?

708
00:52:08,380 --> 00:52:14,360
I mean, let's see what we get to tonight.

709
00:52:19,370 --> 00:52:25,530
So just for a comment for myself, there

710
00:52:25,530 --> 00:52:31,770
was a paragraph in the staff report that really struck me.

711
00:52:32,390 --> 00:52:34,370
And I want to read it.

712
00:52:36,170 --> 00:52:39,190
Is staff's opinion that the proposal does not

713
00:52:39,190 --> 00:52:41,930
need the significant elements of the comprehensive plan

714
00:52:41,930 --> 00:52:44,630
and does not create a compelling argument for action

715
00:52:44,630 --> 00:52:47,130
inconsistent with the comprehensive plan?

716
00:52:47,690 --> 00:52:50,530
Nor are there public benefits unique to this project

717
00:52:50,530 --> 00:52:52,670
that substantially justify the approval

718
00:52:52,670 --> 00:52:54,230
of the proposal as presented.

719
00:52:54,790 --> 00:52:56,590
Further, the scale of the proposal

720
00:52:56,590 --> 00:52:59,970
is inconsistent with the stated purposes of the GC

721
00:52:59,970 --> 00:53:02,930
district that calls for small-scale neighborhood

722
00:53:02,930 --> 00:53:07,430
commercial developments that is compatible in scale with the adjacent

723
00:53:07,430 --> 00:53:12,110
residences, nor leave a remnant parcel which would effectively prohibit any

724
00:53:12,110 --> 00:53:16,550
future redevelopment potential of the property, that property, that funds

725
00:53:16,550 --> 00:53:23,530
directly on to all of our just west of the development. For me, that's a pretty

726
00:53:23,530 --> 00:53:32,310
compelling statements in the staff's findings. I think for me personally I

727
00:53:33,090 --> 00:53:39,270
reached the same conclusion. I would like to that is that it's so overarching I'd

728
00:53:39,270 --> 00:53:44,590
like to get some comment from others on the commission whether or not you

729
00:53:44,590 --> 00:53:51,210
concur with that or not because if not then there's a lot of other things to

730
00:53:51,210 --> 00:54:01,250
to discuss and continue on with but to me that's a pretty threshold evaluation and I'd like to see what other people think about it.

731
00:54:02,610 --> 00:54:16,210
I agree with you there and I also agree with Mr. McGruder. We've been looking at this east dollar corridor for a year and I think we're actually maybe liberalizing things a little bit on that corridor but I don't think we're...

732
00:54:16,210 --> 00:54:17,350
This is a step too far.

733
00:54:17,510 --> 00:54:19,770
I don't think we're talking about allowing

734
00:54:20,930 --> 00:54:23,090
general commercial development, like we

735
00:54:23,090 --> 00:54:26,530
would have in the GC district, in this corridor.

736
00:54:27,350 --> 00:54:30,530
So I don't think it meets the old guidelines,

737
00:54:30,910 --> 00:54:32,450
and I don't think it's anything to do with guidelines.

738
00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:37,380
Obviously, I feel the same way.

739
00:54:37,740 --> 00:54:38,800
I want to say this, though.

740
00:54:39,980 --> 00:54:42,740
I think mobile did a dynamite job

741
00:54:42,740 --> 00:54:46,960
in trying to put together something that was well done,

742
00:54:47,220 --> 00:54:48,520
as beautiful as it is.

743
00:54:48,520 --> 00:55:01,120
I just don't think it fits here, is my issue, because we're not, the comprehensive plan isn't looking at a gigantic thing like this, is the way I read it.

744
00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:05,800
But I want to tell you, I thought it was very attractive.

745
00:55:06,340 --> 00:55:07,200
I just don't think it fits.

746
00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:08,700
Well, and I appreciate the sentiment.

747
00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:13,560
I mean, when I think intensity, I think

748
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:17,000
of some of those other uses, like multi-family,

749
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:19,340
those kind of things that are going to really

750
00:55:19,340 --> 00:55:21,740
have a significant amount of site coverage

751
00:55:21,740 --> 00:55:24,840
or proposals that have been made previously, which

752
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:27,480
are several multi-tenant buildings all stacked

753
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:31,300
up together with parking and things like that.

754
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:33,720
And while architecturally, maybe they'll

755
00:55:33,720 --> 00:55:35,460
have a pitched roof or something like that.

756
00:55:35,460 --> 00:55:42,380
But the true intensity and the site coverage, I feel, is not as compatible with potentially

757
00:55:42,380 --> 00:55:47,320
what we're proposing as far as the open space, and that feel that it's more of a park-like

758
00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:51,600
setting, and we have these uses that are needed in a neighborhood, and in a commercial

759
00:55:51,600 --> 00:55:56,720
district that's adjacent to neighborhoods, you know, and even from a building scale,

760
00:55:56,720 --> 00:56:01,160
there's the front door of this particular corridor, opens up with, you know, the

761
00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:04,820
Scottman's jewelry facility, which is a nice looking building.

762
00:56:05,380 --> 00:56:07,220
But it definitely has commercial elements,

763
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:09,000
and that's the front door of this thing.

764
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:17,440
So I'm trying to help understand what direction could we head.

765
00:56:18,260 --> 00:56:21,640
I mean, we definitely envision adding this,

766
00:56:21,780 --> 00:56:23,400
not having another user, not trying

767
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:26,960
to do this plus a fast food or this plus another sit-down

768
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:30,240
restaurant or whatever other part

769
00:56:30,240 --> 00:56:35,500
on this this development but rather use that space to create some of that open

770
00:56:35,500 --> 00:56:42,420
area in the the total effort of making it a more neighborhood facility to

771
00:56:44,940 --> 00:56:45,340
me any

772
00:56:45,340 --> 00:56:58,240
time you get to that kind of scale you're talking about that would be 20

773
00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:06,400
that would be 20 locate fueling location that that is way beyond local

774
00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:14,840
residential that is all about capturing traffic off of all of it's not it's not

775
00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:20,100
a residential small-scale neighborhood commercial development when you get to

776
00:57:20,100 --> 00:57:25,580
that kind of scale of development.

777
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:29,020
So I don't think there's any way when

778
00:57:29,020 --> 00:57:31,340
you combine seven pieces of property

779
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:35,700
for a gas station, convenience store, and car wash,

780
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:39,000
by definition, you have gone outside

781
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:44,420
that kind of small-scale commercial development that

782
00:57:44,420 --> 00:57:48,920
is envisioned in the, is defined in the commercial,

783
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:54,400
in the GC district, and is described in both the current

784
00:57:54,400 --> 00:57:58,640
and the draft 20-30 competition plan.

785
00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:02,020
So when I'm hearing you speak of scale,

786
00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:03,640
it's the number of pumps.

787
00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:08,280
Are there other elements besides the number of pumps

788
00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:09,620
that you could point to?

789
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:11,500
Yes.

790
00:58:12,660 --> 00:58:17,700
Okay, so a couple of things that I noticed is like for the car wash, you're going to

791
00:58:17,700 --> 00:58:19,580
have 17 vacuum stations.

792
00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:20,220
Yeah.

793
00:58:20,260 --> 00:58:21,040
I mean, that's a lot.

794
00:58:21,380 --> 00:58:22,140
So these are-

795
00:58:22,140 --> 00:58:22,700
Right.

796
00:58:23,740 --> 00:58:24,400
But then-

797
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:29,360
These are- it's a free vacuum service that's provided on that, the exercise-

798
00:58:29,360 --> 00:58:30,380
But it's 17.

799
00:58:30,920 --> 00:58:35,360
I mean, I haven't seen too many car wash gas stations that have 17.

800
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:43,440
And then 27 canopy stacking lanes, I guess, for them to dry the cars or whatever they're going to do.

801
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:47,440
No, that's the entrance to the wash. That's the queue for the...

802
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:53,580
Oh, okay. So just to support what we're thinking is a large scale.

803
00:58:56,020 --> 00:59:07,600
larger scale meaning the number of linear feet in Long Island is probably triple what we now see with the mobilization that's there.

804
00:59:08,540 --> 00:59:12,500
I think it's not just the amount of space that it's taking up but also the amount,

805
00:59:14,340 --> 00:59:24,380
and I think we're also talking about in terms of, you know, 27 cars just being there to wash with the 17 that could be evacuating

806
00:59:24,380 --> 00:59:28,900
plus there's, you know, 20-spec gas, I mean, that's certainly more cars

807
00:59:28,900 --> 00:59:32,220
that are in the neighborhood, or maybe not in the neighborhood,

808
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:35,160
but more cars that are going to be utilizing that service

809
00:59:35,160 --> 00:59:36,320
in the neighborhood at that time.

810
00:59:38,780 --> 00:59:40,180
So I just have one other question.

811
00:59:41,100 --> 00:59:48,740
Does, I notice this company, this energy company that has this gas station,

812
00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:51,580
is there any other gas station that they built like this

813
00:59:51,580 --> 00:59:53,080
that we can reference this to?

814
00:59:53,260 --> 00:59:55,880
So, arch energy, is that what you're speaking of?

815
00:59:55,880 --> 00:59:59,980
Okay, that's what's one of the Wallace companies, Wallace is a family owned business.

816
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:06,060
They're based in Cuba, Missouri, and they are the distributor of the wholesaler for the

817
01:00:06,060 --> 01:00:13,180
mobile BP products here in eastern Missouri, and they have about 32 company-owned mobile

818
01:00:13,180 --> 01:00:18,020
on-the-run stores here. Kind of the more recent ones are Olivet, the one here in the airport,

819
01:00:18,120 --> 01:00:25,020
which is a BP on the run. And yes, so they've operated and developed several.

820
01:00:25,020 --> 01:00:27,900
So, but do they have one that's this size?

821
01:00:28,540 --> 01:00:31,420
So, this is that as far as the store itself, it's the same.

822
01:00:31,740 --> 01:00:34,700
It's about maybe a little bit smaller than the Olivet store.

823
01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:39,240
That's kind of mid-block between, same situation.

824
01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:43,560
It picks up mid-block between Lindberg and 170 instead of Lindberg and 270.

825
01:00:44,420 --> 01:00:45,920
Okay, so this is the last question.

826
01:00:46,100 --> 01:00:47,500
Maybe this will kind of clear it up.

827
01:00:47,920 --> 01:00:52,360
Okay, so at Olivet, how many vacuum stalls do they have there?

828
01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:56,360
So all of that is a little bit different offering on the car wash side it's

829
01:00:56,360 --> 01:01:02,760
bolted to the back and behind they have carpet cleaners and kind of vacuum

830
01:01:02,760 --> 01:01:08,420
stations on the back side of it. The the operating itself for bright works is

831
01:01:08,420 --> 01:01:13,000
similar to a standalone car wash facility that they have on in

832
01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:17,320
fluorescent off of North Limburg and they also have an operating bright

833
01:01:17,320 --> 01:01:22,940
Works location in Columbia, Illinois. Okay. Okay, so this is kind of like the first

834
01:01:22,940 --> 01:01:31,760
test run of a station of this capacity? I wouldn't say that at all. It's basically two

835
01:01:33,040 --> 01:01:36,820
successful business units that are under the Wallace umbrella, one being Bright Works

836
01:01:36,820 --> 01:01:41,940
car wash and the other being the mobile on the run facilities. And rather than having

837
01:01:41,940 --> 01:01:46,700
a wash attached to the building with the depth and trying to preserve some of that

838
01:01:46,700 --> 01:01:51,300
that that buffer yard behind there's just simply not enough depth to get that

839
01:01:51,300 --> 01:01:56,860
to work so just moving the wash over also provides for a much much higher end

840
01:01:56,860 --> 01:02:01,460
offering from the car wash perspective and that's other places.

841
01:02:01,900 --> 01:02:02,740
Okay thank you.

842
01:02:03,580 --> 01:02:05,660
There's 25 percent more pumps.

843
01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:11,760
I think you didn't answer about the vacuum station so they're either none or a lot fewer.

844
01:02:11,760 --> 01:02:17,260
than the seventeen. Yeah it's a different thing because they're a pay for use at the

845
01:02:17,260 --> 01:02:24,820
all of that location but at the floor set location I think there are 12 at the floor

846
01:02:24,820 --> 01:02:32,620
set location currently and there's 14 at the Columbia Illinois location and this is

847
01:02:32,620 --> 01:02:38,800
a free service is part of your wash so the use rate goes up a little higher as you

848
01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:42,920
offered. The difference here compared to the fluorescent bright works and the

849
01:02:42,920 --> 01:02:46,180
Columbia bright works is that those vacuums are not individual vacuums

850
01:02:46,180 --> 01:02:50,820
themselves. This is a centralized type of system, so the only thing that's actually

851
01:02:50,820 --> 01:02:55,360
in these stalls where the vacuums are is just a hose that is then concealed in

852
01:02:55,360 --> 01:03:00,560
the architecture. So it's not, you know, the big machine that's sitting out at each

853
01:03:00,560 --> 01:03:04,920
of those stalls. I think I saw a couple audience members with their

854
01:03:04,920 --> 01:03:06,660
answer is we're still open to comment.

855
01:03:09,140 --> 01:03:11,800
We are, if people want to come and be sworn in.

856
01:03:12,980 --> 01:03:16,340
If you have something to say, you really have to come up. We're in a public hearing, so

857
01:03:16,340 --> 01:03:23,200
it has to be recorded. So if anybody wants to come up and speak, just please do so.

858
01:03:24,260 --> 01:03:27,520
Just quick swearing in and give us your comment.

859
01:03:45,400 --> 01:03:47,580
This is Mary. I'll be swearing.

860
01:03:47,580 --> 01:03:51,840
and do some reporting on the trip, the whole trip and everything on the trip, so I'll be back.

861
01:03:52,220 --> 01:03:52,320
Thank you.

862
01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:56,220
So Mary, just let her give her name and address.

863
01:03:56,820 --> 01:04:00,660
My name is Mary DeWise, and I am the landscape architect on this project.

864
01:04:01,060 --> 01:04:05,860
And I just wanted to clarify, there's been a few questions about the scale of the site,

865
01:04:06,300 --> 01:04:12,540
and I think that's different from the conversation you're having about maybe the scale of the number of vacuums.

866
01:04:12,540 --> 01:04:23,040
The scale of the site consolidating all of those parcels is actually a huge benefit to the residential scale of the project

867
01:04:23,040 --> 01:04:34,000
because the buildings themselves are still regular gas station sites but they're put on a huge parcel so that there's so much protected.

868
01:04:34,620 --> 01:04:40,240
There's a third of an acre of woods that aren't even touched behind this.

869
01:04:40,240 --> 01:04:47,840
There's the park area in front, so you can't have a business with a lot of green space and

870
01:04:47,840 --> 01:04:53,820
existing trees and those beautiful trees without expanding the actual parcel to make room for

871
01:04:53,820 --> 01:04:54,420
all the landscape.

872
01:04:54,900 --> 01:04:55,200
I

873
01:05:02,270 --> 01:05:07,770
know you've already been up here to speak, but I'll bring you back one more time.

874
01:05:11,620 --> 01:05:13,800
My name is Amy Blossett, 910 Woodshire.

875
01:05:13,800 --> 01:05:17,940
You know, just listening to some of the rebuttals

876
01:05:17,940 --> 01:05:20,040
or back and forth and the discussion points,

877
01:05:20,740 --> 01:05:23,700
I mean, I've heard a lot about green space on the site plan.

878
01:05:24,380 --> 01:05:25,980
I mean, to me, all I keep hearing is,

879
01:05:26,020 --> 01:05:29,060
you can dress this up any way you want,

880
01:05:29,440 --> 01:05:34,280
but it doesn't change the purpose of this site and this plan.

881
01:05:34,820 --> 01:05:37,660
The fact that a gas station has green space on it

882
01:05:37,660 --> 01:05:39,860
does not change the functional use.

883
01:05:40,020 --> 01:05:43,500
As in comparison to what you've described to us here tonight,

884
01:05:43,500 --> 01:05:46,020
as what the plan is going forward.

885
01:05:46,820 --> 01:05:48,840
I've also taken a look in a short time

886
01:05:48,840 --> 01:05:52,860
at some of the comparison gas stations that they've alluded to.

887
01:05:53,340 --> 01:05:55,900
One of them's on Highway 67 in fluorescent.

888
01:05:56,540 --> 01:05:58,900
We're talking about things that are not sitting

889
01:05:58,900 --> 01:06:01,900
and surrounded by residential plans.

890
01:06:02,280 --> 01:06:05,240
So I don't think that those reference points are accurate

891
01:06:05,240 --> 01:06:07,280
as things to use when we're discussing this.

892
01:06:07,940 --> 01:06:08,360
Thank you.

893
01:06:08,800 --> 01:06:09,200
Thank you.

894
01:06:09,500 --> 01:06:10,500
Thank you.

895
01:06:10,500 --> 01:06:14,880
One quick point, highway 67 is north Limburg,

896
01:06:15,400 --> 01:06:18,920
just like this is highway 340 and it's olive boulevard.

897
01:06:19,500 --> 01:06:20,640
And actually the one in fluorescent

898
01:06:20,640 --> 01:06:23,380
is does have residents immediately behind it.

899
01:06:23,840 --> 01:06:25,980
And then we work with them in the same capacity.

900
01:06:26,160 --> 01:06:28,600
Just, I just want to make sure that Ron's in the picture.

901
01:06:28,980 --> 01:06:29,540
Thank you.

902
01:06:31,300 --> 01:06:33,920
And I think Mr. Ross's point is correct.

903
01:06:34,100 --> 01:06:35,980
I mean, we are providing this green space

904
01:06:35,980 --> 01:06:43,340
And I think it's in lieu of these uses crammed in a smaller site with additional uses there,

905
01:06:43,640 --> 01:06:46,880
or replacing the car wash with a multi-tenant building.

906
01:06:47,320 --> 01:06:53,600
I mean, I think it's a blessing for the community to have such high property values,

907
01:06:53,700 --> 01:06:59,640
but I think the reality is for this project to be revitalized in this area of olive,

908
01:06:59,780 --> 01:07:04,120
to be revitalized at some point, it's going to take somewhere with all for that person

909
01:07:04,120 --> 01:07:08,540
to whoever would redevelop it to invest in something

910
01:07:08,540 --> 01:07:10,500
that makes sense for the return,

911
01:07:10,760 --> 01:07:11,940
makes sense for the community

912
01:07:11,940 --> 01:07:14,260
and still meets all the other merits of the design guidelines

913
01:07:14,260 --> 01:07:15,420
and the comprehensive plan,

914
01:07:15,900 --> 01:07:20,560
but finding that use has left this project

915
01:07:21,260 --> 01:07:23,640
in this site area, whether it be the mobile

916
01:07:23,640 --> 01:07:26,540
or previous developments,

917
01:07:26,920 --> 01:07:30,300
it's left this with just the obsolete structures

918
01:07:30,300 --> 01:07:31,220
that are there today.

919
01:07:31,980 --> 01:07:37,180
So I mean, I would encourage that we love the opportunity to continue to hear the dialogue

920
01:07:37,180 --> 01:07:44,020
about what is making the intensity and hearing that so we can have an opportunity to kind

921
01:07:44,020 --> 01:07:48,520
of absorb that and see if there are still additional tweaks we can make to that plan

922
01:07:48,520 --> 01:07:52,640
to lower that, this perceived intensity and things like that.

923
01:07:52,920 --> 01:07:53,320
I

924
01:07:57,670 --> 01:08:03,190
think at this point we, if there is no new information to take in,

925
01:08:03,190 --> 01:08:09,230
Our question is to be asked that we will close the public hearing and continue our discussion today.

926
01:08:09,710 --> 01:08:10,350
Now

927
01:08:14,800 --> 01:08:17,660
for the following exhibits in the record of this public hearing.

928
01:08:17,900 --> 01:08:19,800
Documentation of possession of the city clerk.

929
01:08:20,520 --> 01:08:21,860
Reflecting public notice.

930
01:08:22,820 --> 01:08:23,820
The staff's report.

931
01:08:26,480 --> 01:08:34,520
The application and materials presented this evening by the city code of ordinances and charter.

932
01:08:34,520 --> 01:08:38,800
Are there city companies that plan the public file or do they have to do

933
01:08:42,320 --> 01:08:42,460
it?

934
01:08:42,480 --> 01:08:42,840
Close.

935
01:08:48,830 --> 01:08:55,990
So again, I think, come back to that threshold question.

936
01:08:58,650 --> 01:09:08,990
I heard a few people comment that they agree with staff's opinion that it is not the,

937
01:09:11,730 --> 01:09:15,250
that this plan is inconsistent with the comprehensive plan,

938
01:09:16,030 --> 01:09:21,370
that the scale of the proposal is inconsistent with the GC district,

939
01:09:22,690 --> 01:09:26,470
and that it doesn't meet that small-scale neighborhood commercial development

940
01:09:26,470 --> 01:09:29,570
compatible in scale with the adjacent residential.

941
01:09:30,230 --> 01:09:33,150
Is there anybody who has a different view of that

942
01:09:33,150 --> 01:09:37,230
that would like to bring that into the debate?

943
01:09:37,230 --> 01:09:39,550
Well, I'm not sure it's really a different view.

944
01:09:39,730 --> 01:09:42,590
I guess it leads to the kind of answering the question

945
01:09:42,590 --> 01:09:44,510
when the question is, where do we go from here?

946
01:09:44,650 --> 01:09:47,750
Because two words were used interchangeably,

947
01:09:47,750 --> 01:09:49,710
which are definitely not the same.

948
01:09:49,830 --> 01:09:51,810
One is intensity and one is scale.

949
01:09:52,470 --> 01:09:57,310
So we're seeing a tremendous lowering in intensity

950
01:09:57,970 --> 01:09:59,630
by an increase in scale.

951
01:10:00,490 --> 01:10:01,990
I haven't just discovered that.

952
01:10:02,110 --> 01:10:03,210
I mean, I think that's one of the things

953
01:10:03,210 --> 01:10:04,890
that the speaker pointed out.

954
01:10:04,890 --> 01:10:07,170
You said you see a lowering in intensity here?

955
01:10:07,350 --> 01:10:07,610
Definitely.

956
01:10:08,090 --> 01:10:11,470
I mean, we're talking about an increase of maybe 25%

957
01:10:11,470 --> 01:10:13,350
I don't remember what the numbers were.

958
01:10:13,710 --> 01:10:17,850
But we're talking about having this over a much, much larger

959
01:10:17,850 --> 01:10:18,910
piece of ground.

960
01:10:19,250 --> 01:10:23,130
So intensity wise, I mean, intensity being anything

961
01:10:23,130 --> 01:10:28,150
per acre, per square foot, is much lower than it probably

962
01:10:28,150 --> 01:10:29,250
is now.

963
01:10:29,430 --> 01:10:31,730
But it's still a much greater scale.

964
01:10:31,870 --> 01:10:33,170
There's no getting away from that.

965
01:10:33,170 --> 01:10:42,450
So then the question is, how do we balance it, or how do we ask the, you know, the presenter,

966
01:10:43,330 --> 01:10:50,190
the applicant to, can he find a way to lower, not lower the intensity, which is low,

967
01:10:50,890 --> 01:10:53,170
lower the, can we lower the scale?

968
01:10:53,390 --> 01:10:58,070
You could call them all the way back to say, okay, keep what you have now just operated,

969
01:10:58,330 --> 01:10:59,850
maybe make a more modern building.

970
01:11:00,550 --> 01:11:03,390
It's not going to be any less intense than it is now.

971
01:11:05,250 --> 01:11:12,010
The other – another approach – and again, I'm throwing things at – they're certainly not prepared to do or haven't looked at,

972
01:11:12,170 --> 01:11:20,270
and it's kind of unfair, but just trying to throw out the ideas that would be required to make this viable

973
01:11:20,270 --> 01:11:27,170
in terms of the comprehensive plan to say, well, it was a very nice attempt to add so much green space

974
01:11:27,170 --> 01:11:31,910
and amenity, but maybe what we're really looking for is to take some of the space that they

975
01:11:31,910 --> 01:11:37,950
are buying and putting in additional uses, just coming way out from left field night.

976
01:11:38,930 --> 01:11:45,070
But that, you know, what direction do you have to go to say, how do we make this acceptable

977
01:11:45,070 --> 01:11:49,730
to the comprehensive plan, but still be a revitalization of the existing site?

978
01:11:49,730 --> 01:11:55,050
So in the acquisition of these many additional acres,

979
01:11:55,750 --> 01:11:58,530
do we say, well, instead of just their convenience store,

980
01:11:58,670 --> 01:12:03,190
there is a beef parlor, a shoe store, you know, whatever.

981
01:12:03,970 --> 01:12:05,950
I don't know that they're even necessary practical,

982
01:12:06,110 --> 01:12:09,490
but I think that's what it would have to be to try

983
01:12:09,490 --> 01:12:14,570
to meet both of these objectives of trying

984
01:12:14,570 --> 01:12:18,830
to revitalize this site, the site from where it is.

985
01:12:18,830 --> 01:12:25,110
it, but justify the use of the additional space if that's not done by means of

986
01:12:25,110 --> 01:12:26,270
amenities and green space.

987
01:12:29,910 --> 01:12:32,590
That's how I see this right now because again I don't

988
01:12:32,590 --> 01:12:47,930
want to confuse intensity with scope. One thing I would add though is you speak of intensity as you know intensity of what building...

989
01:12:47,930 --> 01:13:16,850
Well, it's almost anything, it could be motions, it could be purchases, it could be anything you say, whether it's intensity of, for instance, pavement, when you look at a pervious area, it could be, if anything we say that is, takes place per unit area, so many widgets per acre, whether those widgets are gas pumps or people or number of vehicles or anything we do,

990
01:13:16,850 --> 01:13:20,850
is how much of that occurs on any unit of space.

991
01:13:21,230 --> 01:13:23,950
That is the intent of whatever we're measuring.

992
01:13:24,850 --> 01:13:28,550
Scope is how large is the entire facility.

993
01:13:29,130 --> 01:13:31,550
So sometimes one is a trade-off for the other.

994
01:13:32,870 --> 01:13:36,290
But maybe it means if we want to have both, if we want to have.

995
01:13:36,790 --> 01:13:37,330
And I do.

996
01:13:37,590 --> 01:13:39,570
I've been in situations where I've

997
01:13:40,150 --> 01:13:43,130
seen good sites that in our first comprehensive plan

998
01:13:43,130 --> 01:13:45,370
that I had to fight against because we didn't need it.

999
01:13:45,370 --> 01:13:54,130
And then I can't see another way out of this other than to say, can the applicant find

1000
01:13:54,130 --> 01:14:00,590
additional uses to add to his site rather than just the green space and amenities?

1001
01:14:02,270 --> 01:14:08,130
I just want to attack the problem that we see, or state the problem and say, okay,

1002
01:14:08,190 --> 01:14:10,590
what are the directions we can go with these?

1003
01:14:11,070 --> 01:14:13,130
And I very much appreciate the feedback.

1004
01:14:13,370 --> 01:14:14,750
Just hearing the discussion is helpful.

1005
01:14:15,030 --> 01:14:18,470
I mean, because if we add uses, then we

1006
01:14:18,470 --> 01:14:20,750
complicate the other end of the traffic concerns.

1007
01:14:21,150 --> 01:14:24,490
So it's kind of like, how much do we want to put in here,

1008
01:14:24,550 --> 01:14:27,310
and what is the particular trigger or breaking point

1009
01:14:28,010 --> 01:14:28,670
for that set of issues?

1010
01:14:28,670 --> 01:14:31,850
I just wanted to state the problem of the situation.

1011
01:14:36,570 --> 01:14:40,330
To me, just personally, when I talk about intensity,

1012
01:14:40,330 --> 01:14:49,230
It is one of the sort of type of trip generation where it is today versus where it would be

1013
01:14:49,230 --> 01:14:58,870
with an extremely large, largest, anywhere-increased core gas station, largest car wash, anywhere-increased core.

1014
01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:05,740
And probably the largest convenience store anywhere in Crete Corps and put them all on that site.

1015
01:15:05,900 --> 01:15:11,220
It is all about trapped in, trapped out, trapped in, trapped out, trapped in, trapped out, you know, all day.

1016
01:15:12,600 --> 01:15:18,540
You know, many hours in a day. That's when I talk about intensity in it.

1017
01:15:18,880 --> 01:15:24,860
That's when I read the comprehensive plan. That's the kind of intensity.

1018
01:15:24,860 --> 01:15:27,540
And I want to keep what we want with the comprehensive plan, too.

1019
01:15:27,680 --> 01:15:31,320
But the one thing is that this type of site use that I think

1020
01:15:31,320 --> 01:15:35,460
somebody used to term capture is because if you have an office

1021
01:15:35,460 --> 01:15:39,100
building, particularly a multi-story, multi-tenant office

1022
01:15:39,100 --> 01:15:42,980
building, you do generate more traffic than would have been

1023
01:15:42,980 --> 01:15:47,360
going, people are going from this point east on olive to a

1024
01:15:47,360 --> 01:15:51,080
point west on olive, and they stop to get a car wash or to

1025
01:15:51,080 --> 01:15:55,780
by gas, but they're the same people who we're going to.

1026
01:15:55,920 --> 01:15:59,240
We're not going to be taking people from University

1027
01:15:59,240 --> 01:16:02,140
City or Chesterfield to come to this site.

1028
01:16:02,540 --> 01:16:05,560
If instead we, none of us want big box,

1029
01:16:05,760 --> 01:16:07,280
I'm just using that as the extreme.

1030
01:16:07,540 --> 01:16:11,500
If we built a big box store for whatever

1031
01:16:11,500 --> 01:16:15,240
the maximum square footage and number

1032
01:16:15,240 --> 01:16:18,260
of stories of office space, we

1033
01:16:18,260 --> 01:16:25,500
We would then be attracting more movements, attracting more, and therefore causing, because

1034
01:16:25,500 --> 01:16:30,380
it would be a destination, we would be increasing the traffic flow.

1035
01:16:30,800 --> 01:16:35,520
I think when you're in the business of selling gas, you're trying to say, I want you to

1036
01:16:35,520 --> 01:16:42,480
come to my station instead of the one just east or just west, but it's the same traffic

1037
01:16:42,480 --> 01:16:43,000
going down.

1038
01:16:43,000 --> 01:16:51,540
people are not going to get in their car to go to a new gas station and take a trip that they would not have taken before.

1039
01:16:52,260 --> 01:17:04,860
I can't help but believe that mobile fix they're going to improve their profitability by bringing in a whole lot more business than they're bringing in right now, wherever it comes from.

1040
01:17:05,200 --> 01:17:09,820
Well, I don't think they own the shelf facility on the other side of the street for instance.

1041
01:17:10,860 --> 01:17:13,320
I mean, unless you would know what to do.

1042
01:17:13,700 --> 01:17:15,940
So that's where a lot of this is.

1043
01:17:17,880 --> 01:17:21,700
You want to get your station and not the competitor station.

1044
01:17:22,320 --> 01:17:25,180
There would be, I guess, and I'm not a marketeer.

1045
01:17:25,440 --> 01:17:28,640
So I'm sure they're looking at an increase in business

1046
01:17:28,640 --> 01:17:31,520
for this site than what they have now.

1047
01:17:32,000 --> 01:17:33,960
But as to where that's going to come from

1048
01:17:33,960 --> 01:17:37,180
and where they're going to generate X number 100,

1049
01:17:37,180 --> 01:17:43,880
more vehicles coming down olive per day, I would have a hard time comprehending that because I

1050
01:17:43,880 --> 01:17:50,020
certainly am not going to get in my car to go to a gas station that isn't in a direction that I was

1051
01:17:50,020 --> 01:17:58,260
already going. I don't think about it so much as bringing in new traffic on olive. I see it as

1052
01:17:58,260 --> 01:18:05,040
bringing more traffic off of olive that's already there than is now coming in. That's why I

1053
01:18:05,040 --> 01:18:08,700
asked earlier, what they thought the trips in and out would be?

1054
01:18:09,000 --> 01:18:12,900
So I did a quick calculation here.

1055
01:18:13,320 --> 01:18:15,820
If I read the traffic study correctly,

1056
01:18:16,200 --> 01:18:21,920
the current traffic generation is about 300 on that site.

1057
01:18:22,400 --> 01:18:26,740
And the projected was 820, so almost three times as many.

1058
01:18:27,140 --> 01:18:31,960
So that means in the middle of a neighborhood area,

1059
01:18:32,260 --> 01:18:33,840
you've got Wilshire, you've got the Lincoln

1060
01:18:33,840 --> 01:18:41,920
You've got all of the residences there on Schulte, Mary Meadows, all those areas around

1061
01:18:41,920 --> 01:18:42,280
here.

1062
01:18:42,960 --> 01:18:48,360
You're increasing the number of movements in and out of there, and at that life, from

1063
01:18:48,360 --> 01:18:55,500
300 a day, which I would call residential in scale, to almost triple that.

1064
01:18:55,660 --> 01:19:01,120
And that's what I think of as the intensive increase that we're seeing here, is bringing

1065
01:19:01,120 --> 01:19:07,820
bringing in something to that site that encourages so much more of that, you know,

1066
01:19:08,080 --> 01:19:12,300
it's almost like a giant fast food restaurant, you know, it's like that constant in and out,

1067
01:19:12,680 --> 01:19:22,200
which is, you know, appropriate in some parts of the city, but in this area that is, is still more

1068
01:19:22,200 --> 01:19:25,580
and walkable and is still more residential in the area,

1069
01:19:25,980 --> 01:19:31,120
that's a pretty substantial change in current situation.

1070
01:19:31,500 --> 01:19:33,540
And the comprehensive plan calls for creating

1071
01:19:33,540 --> 01:19:35,080
more walkability, not less.

1072
01:19:36,360 --> 01:19:39,080
And simply by increasing the traffic three times

1073
01:19:39,400 --> 01:19:40,920
or decreasing the walkability.

1074
01:19:41,520 --> 01:19:43,560
I mean, if you're having cars come in and out

1075
01:19:43,560 --> 01:19:46,780
that many more times, it becomes more treacherous to walk

1076
01:19:46,780 --> 01:19:49,180
and you could put all the green space you want,

1077
01:19:49,180 --> 01:19:52,660
But that's not going to change.

1078
01:19:53,100 --> 01:19:54,780
I mean, there has to be another way to.

1079
01:19:55,100 --> 01:19:57,840
I think currently, I think there's a shoulder right there.

1080
01:19:58,040 --> 01:19:58,240
Oh, sorry.

1081
01:19:59,200 --> 01:20:01,220
I'll let us have some discussion,

1082
01:20:01,440 --> 01:20:04,640
and then we'll give you another chance to read about it.

1083
01:20:08,970 --> 01:20:11,570
Yeah, I mean, I saw the same thing in the traffic study.

1084
01:20:11,830 --> 01:20:15,950
But I mean, before we talk about the traffic study,

1085
01:20:16,070 --> 01:20:17,930
the biggest issue is just the comp land,

1086
01:20:18,130 --> 01:20:19,670
whether it fits in with the comp land.

1087
01:20:19,670 --> 01:20:26,870
And if those spots next door that were residential and weren't designated that way, it may be

1088
01:20:26,870 --> 01:20:29,830
an easy decision, but at this point I think it speaks for itself.

1089
01:20:30,570 --> 01:20:36,730
It's a high hurdle to change that designation to accommodate this project.

1090
01:20:38,610 --> 01:20:40,110
Yeah, I tend to agree.

1091
01:20:40,390 --> 01:20:44,810
I think, I don't know, I'm thinking in terms of what the scope of it is,

1092
01:20:45,530 --> 01:20:50,630
One of the people in the audience came up and said that, you know, you're putting this

1093
01:20:50,630 --> 01:20:56,530
in in lieu of, you know, further commercial development that would potentially also be

1094
01:20:56,530 --> 01:21:01,910
a small business, but it's a gas station campus.

1095
01:21:02,150 --> 01:21:05,750
It's a very large campus of gas station amenities.

1096
01:21:07,010 --> 01:21:10,770
I don't know the Wallace family, but, I mean, they're not the first ones to put

1097
01:21:10,770 --> 01:21:14,810
but a gas station with a car wash and a vacuum station.

1098
01:21:15,270 --> 01:21:16,870
It's great, I think it drives business

1099
01:21:16,870 --> 01:21:17,710
for one to the other,

1100
01:21:18,030 --> 01:21:19,950
but they all drive business to each other.

1101
01:21:20,150 --> 01:21:21,830
It's very different than if you had,

1102
01:21:21,990 --> 01:21:26,610
perhaps like a coffee house as part of the lot.

1103
01:21:27,290 --> 01:21:29,230
Or someone mentioned a pizza parlor.

1104
01:21:29,390 --> 01:21:30,550
I think it's a beautiful site.

1105
01:21:30,970 --> 01:21:33,130
I hope you'll put it in somewhere in Kreep Gore.

1106
01:21:34,330 --> 01:21:34,970
Just not here.

1107
01:21:35,490 --> 01:21:39,430
I just, actually I don't see it

1108
01:21:39,430 --> 01:21:42,990
meeting the requirements of either cop plan.

1109
01:21:45,110 --> 01:21:51,770
I'm almost led to change my question from a rhetorical question then to a real question.

1110
01:21:52,290 --> 01:22:03,190
It wouldn't be possible to take this plan and rather than try to overly use the amenity of the green space per se,

1111
01:22:03,190 --> 01:22:07,250
Is it possible to add additional uses that you're acquiring

1112
01:22:08,170 --> 01:22:09,570
additional property?

1113
01:22:10,530 --> 01:22:12,230
Significantly more than they have now.

1114
01:22:12,890 --> 01:22:18,700
Is it possible to blend this in a campus, if you will,

1115
01:22:18,940 --> 01:22:25,960
but place additional uses there which would then

1116
01:22:26,790 --> 01:22:33,200
be directed in the direction that we're trying to go

1117
01:22:33,200 --> 01:22:39,200
with the complex. Let me see if I understand what you're saying. Have a smaller gas station

1118
01:22:40,540 --> 01:22:47,160
complex with something that isn't gas station attached to it. Right because they spread this

1119
01:22:47,160 --> 01:22:52,660
out over an enormous amount of square foot. I just wanted to see if that's what you meant.

1120
01:22:53,460 --> 01:22:59,940
Thank you. So what we're asking what you're saying is maybe they might want to get into

1121
01:22:59,940 --> 01:23:05,400
some of the business other than gas station business, which surprised me.

1122
01:23:05,420 --> 01:23:10,140
It would except, you know, as property owners, as landowners that you will develop.

1123
01:23:11,540 --> 01:23:15,840
But I don't know, that's, I'm trying to see how do you get from here to there.

1124
01:23:17,980 --> 01:23:19,060
And I don't know.

1125
01:23:21,260 --> 01:23:24,920
And one of the things, when we come back to them, I'd like to ask, do they have,

1126
01:23:28,280 --> 01:23:32,500
I'd like to find a little bit more about the question of traffic generation.

1127
01:23:37,030 --> 01:23:38,430
I generally agree.

1128
01:23:38,790 --> 01:23:39,870
My name's Lee Cannon.

1129
01:23:40,090 --> 01:23:43,550
I'm a principal of Traffic Engineer with CBB here in St. Louis.

1130
01:23:43,710 --> 01:23:49,930
12, 400, Olive, Suite 430, proud business resident of Creek Court.

1131
01:23:51,450 --> 01:23:53,210
We did complete the traffic study.

1132
01:23:53,210 --> 01:23:59,790
it's part of the record, just before the record dated November 4, 2016.

1133
01:24:00,950 --> 01:24:09,130
First of all, I wanted to say that in general terms, I agree with everything that Mr. Rovac

1134
01:24:09,130 --> 01:24:14,750
said about traffic and captured traffic from olive, not creating new trips.

1135
01:24:16,230 --> 01:24:25,710
And to build on the discussion of intensity, I would like to maybe introduce the word density into that equation.

1136
01:24:25,970 --> 01:24:35,230
And this site, based on the size of the parcels that have been collected together, creates a low density development.

1137
01:24:36,830 --> 01:24:45,550
The traffic use, if we just talk about traffic, a site like this might be considered to have

1138
01:24:45,550 --> 01:24:52,950
a high intensity of traffic to and from the site or on the site, but the traffic, the

1139
01:24:52,950 --> 01:24:57,730
majority of the traffic that goes to these types of sites, over half, is typically traffic

1140
01:24:57,730 --> 01:25:01,470
that's already on the road, so they're just pulling the traffic from the existing

1141
01:25:01,470 --> 01:25:02,150
state highway.

1142
01:25:03,730 --> 01:25:09,950
All of Boulevard carries approximately 30,000 cars a day, and that's a very attractive

1143
01:25:10,610 --> 01:25:16,590
roadway to collect business from, because it's already there going from point A to point

1144
01:25:16,590 --> 01:25:20,310
B. It's a state highway, Missouri State Route 340.

1145
01:25:21,090 --> 01:25:28,090
One of the other issues that may be of interest related to the comp plan and traffic

1146
01:25:28,090 --> 01:25:31,410
is something that I would refer to as character.

1147
01:25:32,570 --> 01:25:35,350
If we're worried about the intensity of traffic,

1148
01:25:36,230 --> 01:25:40,330
then additional land uses added to this site,

1149
01:25:40,530 --> 01:25:44,590
such as coffee shops and restaurants specifically,

1150
01:25:45,570 --> 01:25:47,750
will add substantial amounts of traffic.

1151
01:25:49,110 --> 01:25:53,630
I know that typically we don't do a lot of drives

1152
01:25:53,630 --> 01:25:54,990
and facilities in Crete Corps,

1153
01:25:54,990 --> 01:25:57,850
or which tend to have their own additional traffic issues.

1154
01:25:58,850 --> 01:26:04,870
But I would like to also mention, I heard the chair mention

1155
01:26:04,870 --> 01:26:06,390
something about 800 trips.

1156
01:26:07,190 --> 01:26:08,630
I don't think that's correct.

1157
01:26:09,330 --> 01:26:13,870
On page 14 of the traffic study, we looked at the existing

1158
01:26:13,870 --> 01:26:17,130
mobile station, and it's currently generating the

1159
01:26:17,130 --> 01:26:21,510
morning, midday, and PNP hours, 80 trips in the morning,

1160
01:26:22,250 --> 01:26:30,470
120 in the afternoon of midday and 100 in the afternoon, and that's the total of all the cars that go in and all the cars that go out.

1161
01:26:31,150 --> 01:26:39,750
And so that 65 cars per hour in the midday peak, that's about a little over one car per minute on average.

1162
01:26:41,070 --> 01:26:48,030
It's not extreme level of volume to have one car going in and one car coming out every minute.

1163
01:26:49,250 --> 01:27:03,390
It's higher than residential use is obviously, but we are on the same highway and then the proposed mobile station is anticipated to go up to the order of 200 total 100 and 100 hours in the morning.

1164
01:27:04,730 --> 01:27:14,430
310 in the midday, which is 155 in, 155 out, and 240 in the afternoon, p and peak hour, 120 and 120 out.

1165
01:27:14,430 --> 01:27:20,010
Those numbers are a little different from, I read, 230, 310, 280.

1166
01:27:21,570 --> 01:27:27,970
Right, that is another estimate that's presented in Table 4 of the traffic study.

1167
01:27:28,370 --> 01:27:34,730
I was referring to Table 6, which are the actual numbers that were utilized in the work.

1168
01:27:37,250 --> 01:27:43,150
So, most redevelopment that makes it worthwhile to spend money to redevelop is going to generate additional traffic.

1169
01:27:43,150 --> 01:27:49,830
The question in a traffic impact study, and again, aside from the other issues that have been discussed tonight,

1170
01:27:50,570 --> 01:27:57,330
is can the proposed access and can the existing roadways accommodate that traffic?

1171
01:27:57,930 --> 01:28:03,350
So from the city's third-party traffic engineer that looked at our study,

1172
01:28:03,910 --> 01:28:09,210
they generally concurred that our study was appropriate and our findings were correct.

1173
01:28:09,210 --> 01:28:16,950
The St. Louis County who owns and maintains Schulte has also provided us

1174
01:28:16,950 --> 01:28:20,410
comment and feedback that they believe that our findings are appropriate and

1175
01:28:20,410 --> 01:28:37,650
correct. The State Highway Department is still reviewing the study and hasn't yet

1176
01:28:56,970 --> 01:29:03,610
It's important to consider when CBB is asked to do a traffic impact study, I assume you're

1177
01:29:03,610 --> 01:29:09,130
going to approve it and I assume that it's going to be successful because in order to

1178
01:29:09,130 --> 01:29:11,310
generate traffic, those two things have to occur.

1179
01:29:11,630 --> 01:29:16,850
So I'm assuming that it's approved and we're looking at how to mitigate any impacts and

1180
01:29:16,850 --> 01:29:19,970
how to make it the best site that it can be, assuming that it can be.

1181
01:29:19,970 --> 01:29:26,790
So, one of the issues today is that the driveway for mobile is offset with the

1182
01:29:26,790 --> 01:29:32,730
shell across the street and it provides full access. This proposal, if moves forward,

1183
01:29:32,950 --> 01:29:38,950
would have a no left in as requested by St. Louis County and what that's trying

1184
01:29:38,950 --> 01:29:45,230
to do is eliminate any backups that might occur for traffic headed northbound

1185
01:29:45,230 --> 01:29:51,550
on Schulte. It also provides the ability, because there's all this space, that there's

1186
01:29:51,550 --> 01:29:57,730
excess space here in this area which has been identified for long-term potential improvement

1187
01:29:57,730 --> 01:29:59,930
needs for the intersection of

1188
01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:05,020
Mary Meadows and Shulte, which as you heard from one of the earlier speakers, is offset

1189
01:30:05,520 --> 01:30:10,340
and creates some problems. And we've known about that for 10 or 15 years now. It's just

1190
01:30:10,340 --> 01:30:14,980
that there's a lot of obstacles, including a shell station sitting here in this corner

1191
01:30:14,980 --> 01:30:20,860
occupying the space and the fact that Mary Meadows is a private right-of-way. I'm trying

1192
01:30:20,860 --> 01:30:26,060
to work through those. This project would set aside that ground as provided the potential

1193
01:30:26,060 --> 01:30:31,680
for a future project and now the existing mobile station is not in the way of making a safer

1194
01:30:31,680 --> 01:30:33,160
and more efficient intersection.

1195
01:30:34,380 --> 01:30:37,660
Next thing is that there's five curb cuts along this roadway.

1196
01:30:38,520 --> 01:30:45,000
And one of the negative safety issues in roadways is poor access management, having too many

1197
01:30:45,000 --> 01:30:48,520
curb cuts too close together with people coming and going from all different places.

1198
01:30:51,640 --> 01:30:55,700
This site has what I'll call one and a quarter driveways.

1199
01:30:56,020 --> 01:31:00,380
It has one full-axis drive where you can make a right-in, left-in, right-out, left-out.

1200
01:31:00,920 --> 01:31:04,640
And then it has one right-out only, so I'm going to count it as a quarter.

1201
01:31:05,080 --> 01:31:10,940
It's a whole driveway, but there's no left-in, no left-out, and no right-in

1202
01:31:10,940 --> 01:31:12,780
because that's the exit of the car wash.

1203
01:31:14,080 --> 01:31:19,400
So we went from five driveways to one plus or two, however you like to use that map.

1204
01:31:19,860 --> 01:31:24,460
And this driveway now is set up with three lanes.

1205
01:31:24,940 --> 01:31:29,540
So there's one full inbound lane, one left turn out, one right turn out.

1206
01:31:30,040 --> 01:31:33,120
So at any time when there's a left turn waiting to get out,

1207
01:31:33,660 --> 01:31:37,480
and maybe he has to wait a little longer because you're turning left out on the olive,

1208
01:31:38,780 --> 01:31:42,160
there'll be an opportunity for the right turns to get behind them and move out.

1209
01:31:42,160 --> 01:31:43,800
and that's a much better intersection

1210
01:31:43,800 --> 01:31:44,480
of what's there today.

1211
01:31:45,240 --> 01:31:48,000
Next thing is, you don't see this at a lot of gas stations,

1212
01:31:48,600 --> 01:31:50,120
especially in urban environments.

1213
01:31:50,860 --> 01:31:54,380
We have a very long driveway throat here

1214
01:31:54,880 --> 01:31:56,640
which allows some cars to stack

1215
01:31:56,640 --> 01:31:57,760
while they're waiting to get out

1216
01:31:58,400 --> 01:32:01,180
and not impede the cars as they're coming in.

1217
01:32:02,620 --> 01:32:05,180
Again, you can't do that without lots of space.

1218
01:32:05,520 --> 01:32:06,860
If you look at the existing condition,

1219
01:32:07,080 --> 01:32:08,020
you'll notice you come in,

1220
01:32:08,160 --> 01:32:11,080
you're right in the apron for the gas pump.

1221
01:32:11,080 --> 01:32:12,020
And

1222
01:32:14,320 --> 01:32:18,040
then also, with the drive-through car wash, there's ample opportunities for stacking

1223
01:32:18,040 --> 01:32:23,520
such that folks that are waiting on the very busiest of days to get into the car wash won't

1224
01:32:23,520 --> 01:32:27,980
be impacting the people that are trying to get to the gas canopy or the sea store and

1225
01:32:27,980 --> 01:32:29,260
or in and out of the site.

1226
01:32:29,640 --> 01:32:39,080
So the density of this site has allowed much better flow and efficiency on the site.

1227
01:32:39,080 --> 01:32:45,200
It's also allowed the driveways to be spaced much further away from the signal and much

1228
01:32:45,200 --> 01:32:46,340
further away from each other.

1229
01:32:47,720 --> 01:32:56,760
And last thing, this area here currently is part of the mobile station and these areas

1230
01:32:56,760 --> 01:33:00,840
are the front yards and driveways to these homes being used as businesses.

1231
01:33:00,840 --> 01:33:08,360
is this area, as it's opened up, provides the ability to do pedestrian and green space

1232
01:33:08,360 --> 01:33:14,160
amenities that you can't do with what you have today. If you're trying to push the site

1233
01:33:14,560 --> 01:33:20,620
that exists, leave it there or maybe just renovate the existing facilities. There's

1234
01:33:20,620 --> 01:33:26,980
just not enough room to allow this kind of space which now projects across the entire

1235
01:33:26,980 --> 01:33:32,460
facility. So again, the track unit I said assumes you're going to approve the site, it's going

1236
01:33:32,460 --> 01:33:37,360
to generate trips, it's going to be successful, it's going to generate those trips at a successful

1237
01:33:37,360 --> 01:33:42,380
level and what, if anything, do we need to do the road system? Well, we've been working

1238
01:33:42,380 --> 01:33:47,760
on this site in different iterations for many years, so we kind of knew the civil

1239
01:33:47,760 --> 01:33:53,360
engineer Kevin Caspin, the same engineer. Wallace Oil has been involved as well as

1240
01:33:53,360 --> 01:33:57,940
as part of that development or all of that development depending on the iteration.

1241
01:33:58,800 --> 01:34:02,860
So a lot of those things are kind of baked into this site plan as we went through.

1242
01:34:03,380 --> 01:34:08,360
Some have been added on like the three-lane driveway and the restriction that was requested

1243
01:34:08,360 --> 01:34:09,780
by the county of the North Island.

1244
01:34:11,800 --> 01:34:13,060
So that's about all I have to say.

1245
01:34:13,120 --> 01:34:17,200
I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have at any level of detail in the

1246
01:34:17,200 --> 01:34:20,780
traffic impact study that you might want to know.

1247
01:34:28,270 --> 01:34:30,690
I do have one question for Jason.

1248
01:34:32,010 --> 01:34:33,890
Modot has not weighed in yet.

1249
01:34:37,450 --> 01:34:39,470
When is that expected?

1250
01:34:40,470 --> 01:34:42,710
And one question I have is whether or not

1251
01:34:43,270 --> 01:34:52,840
with a gas station car wash of this pretty significant size

1252
01:34:53,600 --> 01:34:55,960
taking the place of the small one that's there now,

1253
01:34:55,960 --> 01:35:02,500
Would they really be okay with a left out right in front of a signal like that?

1254
01:35:02,960 --> 01:35:05,260
Generally, you're looking to see less of those.

1255
01:35:07,580 --> 01:35:12,180
And is that a possibility that they would have a problem with that?

1256
01:35:12,980 --> 01:35:20,160
So I think the first question was in terms of the scale of it.

1257
01:35:20,440 --> 01:35:22,680
Was that your question, I guess, on the first part of it?

1258
01:35:24,100 --> 01:35:26,320
I'm sorry, just could you repeat the first question?

1259
01:35:27,060 --> 01:35:28,880
Just asking about MODOT.

1260
01:35:29,180 --> 01:35:30,260
Okay, I'm sorry, yes.

1261
01:35:31,260 --> 01:35:34,520
If we had a preliminary design review with the applicant,

1262
01:35:34,820 --> 01:35:37,560
their engineer as well as staff, Whitney and myself,

1263
01:35:38,240 --> 01:35:42,180
and MODOT at MODOT's offices probably about two months ago.

1264
01:35:42,580 --> 01:35:45,220
So we discussed in general terms the plan,

1265
01:35:45,720 --> 01:35:49,040
what the traffic impacts study should entail and so forth.

1266
01:35:49,500 --> 01:35:51,860
But they have, as Mr. Cannon mentioned to you,

1267
01:35:51,860 --> 01:35:56,560
Maybe they have not produced a formal opinion of it yet or a formal recommendation at this

1268
01:35:56,560 --> 01:35:56,800
time.

1269
01:35:57,200 --> 01:36:01,680
St. Louis County has and that letter has been included in your packet and in general they

1270
01:36:01,680 --> 01:36:07,480
concur with CBB's assessment of the traffic impacts associated with this proposed development.

1271
01:36:08,320 --> 01:36:13,840
Our civil, I'm sorry, our traffic engineer, the city's consultant, which is GBA.

1272
01:36:13,840 --> 01:36:22,020
They also, by and large, have backed the plan by CBB with some adjustments and some questions,

1273
01:36:22,140 --> 01:36:25,680
but overall, they don't have a big issue with it either.

1274
01:36:28,270 --> 01:36:30,370
When do you expect MODOT to speed that?

1275
01:36:30,710 --> 01:36:30,990
I don't.

1276
01:36:31,310 --> 01:36:32,150
Mr. Kana may know.

1277
01:36:32,350 --> 01:36:32,690
I don't.

1278
01:36:33,110 --> 01:36:35,410
They haven't been in direct communication with staff.

1279
01:36:35,590 --> 01:36:39,890
Typically, the applicant is the one working with MODOT in terms of getting their specific

1280
01:36:39,890 --> 01:36:40,410
approval.

1281
01:36:40,950 --> 01:36:41,170
Mr. Kana?

1282
01:36:41,350 --> 01:36:42,930
We were hoping to have it this evening.

1283
01:36:42,930 --> 01:36:45,310
We inquired about it last week.

1284
01:36:46,090 --> 01:36:47,650
They had some people out over the holidays.

1285
01:36:48,670 --> 01:36:55,430
So I hope to get it soon, speaking for another agency.

1286
01:36:57,750 --> 01:36:59,950
And so who controls these roadways?

1287
01:37:00,590 --> 01:37:03,310
MODOT for Olive and St. Louis County for Shilty.

1288
01:37:03,430 --> 01:37:05,950
They are the controlling jurisdictions for access

1289
01:37:05,950 --> 01:37:07,990
and traffic management concerns.

1290
01:37:08,710 --> 01:37:12,170
I would say our role is mainly looking at the zoning

1291
01:37:12,170 --> 01:37:14,710
and the impact to the surrounding areas and so forth.

1292
01:37:14,710 --> 01:37:18,710
We do have a role in it, obviously, it's in our city, but in terms of jurisdiction of

1293
01:37:18,710 --> 01:37:22,290
roadways, St. Louis County for Schulte, MoDOT for all.

1294
01:37:30,210 --> 01:37:35,010
Since something is going back a little bit different than the traffic, it's just looking

1295
01:37:35,010 --> 01:37:38,790
through and thinking about what about this doesn't fit with the comprehensive plan,

1296
01:37:38,890 --> 01:37:40,790
both the past and the future.

1297
01:37:41,550 --> 01:37:47,630
The size and the scale in terms of being useful to that local market and fitting

1298
01:37:47,630 --> 01:37:54,370
to that residential area, and then also in terms of creating that walkable corridor, there's

1299
01:37:54,370 --> 01:38:02,310
not necessarily a walking destination in this. I would see those as being two of the largest

1300
01:38:02,310 --> 01:38:02,690
issues.

1301
01:38:03,210 --> 01:38:13,390
To me, the big issues of not being consistent with the purposes of the GC district, the

1302
01:38:13,390 --> 01:38:19,230
the scale of the proposal are totally separate from traffic impacts.

1303
01:38:19,490 --> 01:38:20,810
And I think there are some.

1304
01:38:21,410 --> 01:38:23,830
There's certainly a concern to Marinetta.

1305
01:38:24,090 --> 01:38:26,830
There's probably some of the people who live back on Schulte.

1306
01:38:27,730 --> 01:38:29,710
It's a lot more in and out.

1307
01:38:29,930 --> 01:38:32,310
But that for me is not the determining factor.

1308
01:38:32,690 --> 01:38:33,850
It's not a traffic issue.

1309
01:38:34,510 --> 01:38:41,010
It is whether or not this fits in a neighborhood development kind of area,

1310
01:38:41,010 --> 01:38:42,230
they're likely to install a corridor.

1311
01:38:42,850 --> 01:38:44,030
Yeah, I would kind of agree.

1312
01:38:44,190 --> 01:38:46,330
I guess that the whole thing is how can we get

1313
01:38:47,210 --> 01:38:50,530
or what configuration of this or some successor

1314
01:38:50,990 --> 01:38:54,570
would give us this mixed use that we're looking for.

1315
01:38:55,010 --> 01:38:56,990
I think the walkability annulment is a problem.

1316
01:38:57,110 --> 01:38:58,690
Once you concentrate, you have all those,

1317
01:38:58,810 --> 01:39:00,410
right now you have all those curb cuts,

1318
01:39:01,090 --> 01:39:02,790
I do a lot of walking and a lot of running.

1319
01:39:05,190 --> 01:39:07,510
If everything's concentrated in one place,

1320
01:39:07,510 --> 01:39:14,290
I feel a lot more a lot safer a lot more comfortable going down and knowing where I'm going to see the traffic

1321
01:39:16,990 --> 01:39:19,610
So I think it all comes down to

1322
01:39:20,730 --> 01:39:22,070
What and how

1323
01:39:28,530 --> 01:39:30,310
What's going to lead to that

1324
01:39:32,430 --> 01:39:34,670
And where will we be what will be

1325
01:39:36,350 --> 01:39:48,990
And if we deny this or place other conditions, what will grow out of it, I think that's the answer I don't have at all.

1326
01:39:50,670 --> 01:39:56,810
I see that as the stumbling block because of the stated nature that we're looking for in this area.

1327
01:40:00,170 --> 01:40:06,530
So I think for tonight we have two choices, more or less.

1328
01:40:09,050 --> 01:40:11,530
I think if the

1329
01:40:14,090 --> 01:40:18,450
commission thinks that additional design considerations or other modifications

1330
01:40:18,450 --> 01:40:22,450
might be necessary, which could include reducing the scale,

1331
01:40:22,910 --> 01:40:27,670
we could make a motion to continue the proposal to their December 19 meeting later

1332
01:40:27,670 --> 01:40:29,430
and provide some more direction.

1333
01:40:31,110 --> 01:40:37,750
If we find that the proposal is simply inconsistent with the comprehensive plan with the purpose

1334
01:40:37,750 --> 01:40:43,750
and intent of the general commercial district, then we should make motions to approve each

1335
01:40:43,750 --> 01:40:46,830
of the applications and then individually vote to recommend denial.

1336
01:40:47,170 --> 01:40:50,390
So that's where they build

1337
01:40:54,100 --> 01:40:57,940
that second route because this just does not seem to

1338
01:40:57,940 --> 01:41:01,640
or do we think there is something to work with

1339
01:41:01,640 --> 01:41:05,560
and we want to try to talk about further modifications.

1340
01:41:06,080 --> 01:41:08,280
And I would say to do that, we would have to provide

1341
01:41:08,280 --> 01:41:11,840
some direction, some very specific direction

1342
01:41:11,840 --> 01:41:17,440
to with which staff and the applicants could work from.

1343
01:41:18,520 --> 01:41:23,080
I agree, we can't say come back to something else

1344
01:41:23,080 --> 01:41:25,560
if the applicant doesn't have something else,

1345
01:41:25,660 --> 01:41:26,800
there isn't willing to do that.

1346
01:41:26,800 --> 01:41:29,440
Well, I mean, we have heard some things.

1347
01:41:29,460 --> 01:41:32,720
And surprising, the more use thing actually

1348
01:41:32,720 --> 01:41:34,240
was not something that came up.

1349
01:41:34,400 --> 01:41:35,580
But that's something that, I mean,

1350
01:41:35,620 --> 01:41:40,040
we could potentially look at as far as, you know,

1351
01:41:40,440 --> 01:41:44,360
or used to kind of toy with the dialogue that we've

1352
01:41:44,360 --> 01:41:45,340
been able to have tonight.

1353
01:41:46,460 --> 01:41:48,320
But in general, this is the plan

1354
01:41:48,320 --> 01:41:49,940
that you're really here for.

1355
01:41:50,040 --> 01:41:51,940
You're not looking for something half this size.

1356
01:41:52,820 --> 01:41:54,700
Now I'm putting words in your mouth.

1357
01:41:54,700 --> 01:42:02,980
But are you flexible to the point of looking at something half

1358
01:42:02,980 --> 01:42:07,040
the size, or are you really looking for something pretty much

1359
01:42:07,040 --> 01:42:09,280
along this scale with maybe some small modifications?

1360
01:42:10,360 --> 01:42:12,960
I'm not sure to the extent the modifications.

1361
01:42:13,360 --> 01:42:15,620
I mean, I'm still just a representative of the client.

1362
01:42:17,520 --> 01:42:20,740
So to hear the feedback and understand that feedback,

1363
01:42:21,680 --> 01:42:30,000
You know, to continue the hearing or continue the motion and just leave it on the table to give us an opportunity to see if can we come with something.

1364
01:42:31,600 --> 01:42:37,120
I think it's probably a better avenue to give us some options in exploring that.

1365
01:42:38,380 --> 01:42:44,560
You know, but I, and just because I, you know, here on the fly, I can't lay out design and that kind of stuff.

1366
01:42:44,560 --> 01:42:51,680
But if we went the route of approving the applications

1367
01:42:51,680 --> 01:42:56,680
and then vote individually, and we decided it wasn't going to work,

1368
01:42:56,780 --> 01:42:57,160
then I'm not going to approve them.

1369
01:42:57,160 --> 01:42:59,840
Not to approve them, but I said motion to approve them,

1370
01:42:59,840 --> 01:43:02,680
which is what you have to do in order to turn up that order.

1371
01:43:02,960 --> 01:43:09,460
And my point being, if they want to come back with another proposal

1372
01:43:09,460 --> 01:43:13,260
and another time for something different, they can always do that.

1373
01:43:13,260 --> 01:43:22,520
If we do that, so if we continue this, it's just, to me, seems to be the waste of time.

1374
01:43:22,780 --> 01:43:29,980
Unless they wish to modify the plan to a point that would be more in conformity with the comprehensive plan.

1375
01:43:30,300 --> 01:43:37,240
I guess what I'm saying is that if we did the previous and they wanted to come back with another plan,

1376
01:43:37,940 --> 01:43:41,780
rather than modify the plan that's here, they could still do that.

1377
01:43:41,780 --> 01:43:49,280
I would only say to that, and I don't disagree with the sentiment, but there's a lot of work

1378
01:43:49,280 --> 01:43:58,580
of their time, the staff's time, have obviously gone into this, and we've conveyed obviously

1379
01:43:58,580 --> 01:44:06,100
some pretty substantial concerns, and staff has to, I mean they came here tonight with

1380
01:44:06,100 --> 01:44:09,960
the staff report is pretty clear where they were coming from,

1381
01:44:10,380 --> 01:44:15,700
but I would be OK with continuing it for one more meeting

1382
01:44:15,700 --> 01:44:21,780
to allow staff and the applicant to see

1383
01:44:21,780 --> 01:44:27,080
if there's any substantial revisions that they might

1384
01:44:27,080 --> 01:44:29,040
want to come back with, and if not,

1385
01:44:29,240 --> 01:44:33,940
then we'll go ahead and put on the application for us.

1386
01:44:35,300 --> 01:44:38,160
Well, just a couple of comments for you.

1387
01:44:38,340 --> 01:44:42,780
First of all, if you're going to continue the item tonight, which you would want to continue

1388
01:44:42,780 --> 01:44:49,200
all applications, it sounds like, rather than voting a separate way, you want to continue

1389
01:44:49,200 --> 01:44:49,600
all of it.

1390
01:44:49,620 --> 01:44:50,700
Okay, for further discussion.

1391
01:44:51,440 --> 01:44:57,900
One thing is I think the applicant would benefit from having your direction in terms

1392
01:44:57,900 --> 01:44:59,440
of how you're going to continue this.

1393
01:45:00,000 --> 01:45:05,460
Are you going to continue it to just have them throw out things that may or may not work

1394
01:45:05,460 --> 01:45:09,300
because that's not really, I don't think, what you should do. You do have an application in

1395
01:45:09,300 --> 01:45:14,900
front of you if you want to continue it and if there's specific direction where if you're

1396
01:45:14,900 --> 01:45:19,200
at the idea of scaling it down, which is what I'm hearing, you know, we just need

1397
01:45:19,200 --> 01:45:23,580
to give them, I think, a little bit marching orders if we're going to continue it. What

1398
01:45:23,580 --> 01:45:28,160
I've heard tonight is that this project does not meet with the concepts of the

1399
01:45:28,160 --> 01:45:30,600
comprehensive plan, and that's the biggest sticking point.

1400
01:45:30,900 --> 01:45:31,720
It's a matter of scale.

1401
01:45:32,140 --> 01:45:33,780
It's just too much for this site.

1402
01:45:34,380 --> 01:45:37,080
In this part of all the Boulevard, it's just too much.

1403
01:45:37,820 --> 01:45:38,680
That's what I'm hearing.

1404
01:45:38,920 --> 01:45:41,740
So they could go back and they could scale it back down,

1405
01:45:42,180 --> 01:45:45,300
maybe window it down to a much smaller gas station,

1406
01:45:45,420 --> 01:45:47,240
much smaller car wash.

1407
01:45:47,520 --> 01:45:49,840
That certainly is an option for you to consider.

1408
01:45:50,120 --> 01:45:53,320
But at some point, we're gonna have to re-notice this.

1409
01:45:53,460 --> 01:45:57,360
If this project is a complete change

1410
01:45:57,360 --> 01:46:01,640
versus what we have versus minor tweaking and adjusting I think we owe it to the

1411
01:46:01,640 --> 01:46:07,320
public to re-notice this as a separate application so if you don't like this

1412
01:46:07,320 --> 01:46:10,780
project you're recommending it first of all to the City Council they ultimately

1413
01:46:10,780 --> 01:46:14,420
will make the decision unless the applicant were to withdraw prior to the

1414
01:46:14,420 --> 01:46:18,160
Council's consideration but you are recommending body for the City Council

1415
01:46:18,160 --> 01:46:23,060
they make the ultimate decision on this so there's that I just I just wanted

1416
01:46:23,060 --> 01:46:26,600
to kind of give you a little context on this in terms of how much you

1417
01:46:26,600 --> 01:46:32,620
should probably adjust at this stage or whether you, if you do vote to deny, maybe the reasons

1418
01:46:32,620 --> 01:46:37,720
are can be articulated in that summary for them to come back with a new application at

1419
01:46:37,720 --> 01:46:38,980
some point in the future as well.

1420
01:46:39,280 --> 01:46:40,400
That's another option for you.

1421
01:46:40,820 --> 01:46:44,320
I haven't thought about the re-noticing of the picture, and just substantially, you're

1422
01:46:44,320 --> 01:46:47,140
basically talking about a new project anyway.

1423
01:46:48,920 --> 01:46:52,520
I think we're looking at a substantial change in order to set the conference.

1424
01:46:53,780 --> 01:46:54,260
One

1425
01:46:58,200 --> 01:47:01,380
thing that may be an issue is the new comp line.

1426
01:47:01,720 --> 01:47:09,280
I'm selecting after Christmas and maybe revisiting it after that new comp line is in and actually see what we're looking at.

1427
01:47:09,340 --> 01:47:10,860
It doesn't meet the old comp line.

1428
01:47:11,580 --> 01:47:13,660
I don't think it'll meet the new comp line, but it may.

1429
01:47:13,880 --> 01:47:15,220
So that might be an option.

1430
01:47:23,530 --> 01:47:32,390
Sounds like we're moving towards taking up each of the applications with motions and taking it right on individually tonight.

1431
01:47:37,310 --> 01:47:43,770
Do we vote to deny it, or do we vote to, or do we, does it die for lack of emotion or a second?

1432
01:47:44,730 --> 01:47:45,090
No.

1433
01:47:45,310 --> 01:47:46,030
We're going to take some of that.

1434
01:47:46,290 --> 01:47:47,330
We're going to take some of that.

1435
01:47:47,490 --> 01:47:47,650
Okay.

1436
01:47:48,090 --> 01:47:48,310
We

1437
01:47:51,420 --> 01:47:58,540
would either continue it to a future meeting for further revisions or vote it up or down.

1438
01:47:58,920 --> 01:47:59,220
Okay.

1439
01:48:12,900 --> 01:48:15,040
I think we're going to do all of them.

1440
01:48:16,080 --> 01:48:22,820
I mean, if we are going to vote on the applications, there are three of them, so we have to go through all three of them.

1441
01:48:26,060 --> 01:48:36,160
I've moved to approve applications 16-031 for the rezoning of properties at 111-27, 111-35, and 111-41.

1442
01:48:36,220 --> 01:48:41,400
All in boulevard currently zone C, single-family residential to GC, general commercial.

1443
01:48:45,800 --> 01:48:50,060
So discussion on this one is just the rezoning of it.

1444
01:48:51,080 --> 01:49:00,500
On my part I think the properties that are subject to this may or may not be appropriate

1445
01:49:00,500 --> 01:49:07,760
for GC and certainly in that area and it's not that they don't fit but I would not approve

1446
01:49:07,760 --> 01:49:11,840
of a rezoning without a use in mind in something we look at.

1447
01:49:12,060 --> 01:49:20,920
And since this particular one is not a plan that is appropriate

1448
01:49:20,920 --> 01:49:25,600
for the area, I would not approve the rezoning to GC.

1449
01:49:25,980 --> 01:49:27,900
But on that basis, not on the basis

1450
01:49:27,900 --> 01:49:30,800
that GC in and of itself would never be appropriate.

1451
01:49:31,480 --> 01:49:32,500
I would think that would

1452
01:49:35,540 --> 01:49:36,100
I be for vote?

1453
01:49:36,340 --> 01:49:40,080
Just to clarify, the motion was to deny the motion to be approved.

1454
01:49:43,760 --> 01:49:52,600
If we approve the motion as read, then we're saying it's okay to rezone it for C.

1455
01:49:53,340 --> 01:49:53,560
Correct.

1456
01:49:53,740 --> 01:49:54,680
Is that what we want to do?

1457
01:49:57,480 --> 01:50:05,840
You have to make the motion in the affirmative, and then the vote can be either to support

1458
01:50:05,840 --> 01:50:12,060
the motion which is in the affirmative, which would be to approve or to be not in favor,

1459
01:50:12,220 --> 01:50:14,400
which would be to deny the rezoning request.

1460
01:50:14,600 --> 01:50:23,560
And I had stated my reasoning that I plan to vote no is because the rezoning to me

1461
01:50:25,500 --> 01:50:28,840
is connected to the application behind the views behind it.

1462
01:50:28,860 --> 01:50:30,140
If I don't understand, thank you.

1463
01:50:30,180 --> 01:50:30,380
Okay.

1464
01:50:30,880 --> 01:50:32,560
All right.

1465
01:50:32,640 --> 01:50:33,420
So are you ready for a vote?

1466
01:50:34,280 --> 01:50:35,000
Mr. Shue?

1467
01:50:35,000 --> 01:50:35,420
No.

1468
01:50:36,920 --> 01:50:37,600
Ms. Hall?

1469
01:50:37,960 --> 01:50:38,120
No.

1470
01:50:38,400 --> 01:50:39,040
Mr. Kearney?

1471
01:50:39,340 --> 01:50:39,520
No.

1472
01:50:39,660 --> 01:50:40,100
Ms. Roeback?

1473
01:50:40,340 --> 01:50:40,500
No.

1474
01:50:41,040 --> 01:50:41,680
Ms. Silverman?

1475
01:50:41,860 --> 01:50:42,000
No.

1476
01:50:42,140 --> 01:50:42,640
Ms. McRuder?

1477
01:50:42,900 --> 01:50:43,060
No.

1478
01:50:44,080 --> 01:50:45,260
And the chair votes no.

1479
01:50:47,940 --> 01:50:52,840
Do we have a motion for applications 16-0-3-1 for the boundary adjustment?

1480
01:50:53,240 --> 01:50:58,580
I move to approve application number 16-0-3-1 for boundary adjustment and conditional use

1481
01:50:58,580 --> 01:51:02,360
permit for a mobile on the run convenience store with 20 gas pumps.

1482
01:51:02,360 --> 01:51:14,720
in a Bright Works car wash facility with 17 outdoor vacuum stations located at 1119, 1114,

1483
01:51:14,720 --> 01:51:20,760
four, one olive boulevard and one one one zero zero, one one one one four,

1484
01:51:21,020 --> 01:51:21,940
Oak Lake Court.

1485
01:51:22,900 --> 01:51:23,620
Second.

1486
01:51:25,920 --> 01:51:26,640
Second.

1487
01:51:28,900 --> 01:51:29,620
Discussion.

1488
01:51:32,060 --> 01:51:33,220
On this one,

1489
01:51:34,740 --> 01:51:38,640
I would say boundary adjustment is not the issue,

1490
01:51:38,960 --> 01:51:43,600
and although we didn't get into a great deal of detail on this conditional use permit,

1491
01:51:43,600 --> 01:52:01,220
I think a 20 gas station pumps and a very large car wash facility with 17 outdoors is not appropriate for that residential area.

1492
01:52:03,500 --> 01:52:10,720
But again, I'm looking at the context of this overall proposal, so for that reason I've been doing that.

1493
01:52:10,720 --> 01:52:11,580
Are

1494
01:52:14,400 --> 01:52:15,160
you ready for a vote?

1495
01:52:15,340 --> 01:52:15,960
Any other comments?

1496
01:52:17,100 --> 01:52:18,140
Comments from the public?

1497
01:52:22,350 --> 01:52:23,290
Mr. McGridder?

1498
01:52:23,530 --> 01:52:25,170
Mr. Silverman?

1499
01:52:25,730 --> 01:52:26,810
Mr. Rovac?

1500
01:52:27,590 --> 01:52:28,230
Mr. Kearney?

1501
01:52:28,470 --> 01:52:29,190
Mr. Schu?

1502
01:52:29,350 --> 01:52:30,150
Mr. Schu?

1503
01:52:30,410 --> 01:52:31,230
Mr. Rovac?

1504
01:52:33,760 --> 01:52:35,340
And finally the last one.

1505
01:52:41,600 --> 01:52:47,880
To approve application number 16 to have 031 for site development plan for mobile on the running convenience store.

1506
01:52:48,060 --> 01:52:51,060
The 20 gas pumps and a bright works car wash facility.

1507
01:52:51,060 --> 01:53:05,700
the 17 outdoor vacuum stations located at 1109 to 11141 Oliver Bar and 11100 to 11114 Oakland Corp.

1508
01:53:06,360 --> 01:53:09,960
Second from Mr. Rebek, do you have any discussion?

1509
01:53:10,560 --> 01:53:14,760
I wish they'd put it somewhere else in Grief Corp. We could just strike the address.

1510
01:53:14,760 --> 01:53:15,920
The

1511
01:53:19,240 --> 01:53:34,000
landscaping and layout was really very nice but as the staff had stated, I don't think the proposal meets with significant elements of the comprehensive plan.

1512
01:53:34,620 --> 01:53:38,960
It doesn't create a compelling argument for being inconsistent with it.

1513
01:53:40,220 --> 01:53:45,340
There are sufficient public benefits unique to this project that substantially justify

1514
01:53:45,960 --> 01:53:51,900
the proposal is presented and specifically the scale of the proposal is inconsistent

1515
01:53:51,900 --> 01:53:56,920
with the stated purpose of the GC district that calls for small-scale neighborhood commercial

1516
01:53:56,920 --> 01:54:00,100
developments compatible in scale with the adjacent residents.

1517
01:54:00,420 --> 01:54:04,060
That's my reasoning and if anybody has anything to add to that.

1518
01:54:04,060 --> 01:54:08,260
I'm ready for a vote.

1519
01:54:08,980 --> 01:54:09,640
Mr. McGruder.

1520
01:54:09,820 --> 01:54:10,040
Nate.

1521
01:54:10,160 --> 01:54:10,620
Mr. Silverman.

1522
01:54:10,960 --> 01:54:11,040
No.

1523
01:54:11,280 --> 01:54:11,760
Mr. Roelach.

1524
01:54:11,960 --> 01:54:12,060
No.

1525
01:54:12,260 --> 01:54:12,960
Mr. Kearney.

1526
01:54:13,220 --> 01:54:13,360
No.

1527
01:54:13,440 --> 01:54:13,740
Mr. Hall.

1528
01:54:14,040 --> 01:54:14,200
No.

1529
01:54:14,380 --> 01:54:14,880
Mr. Shue.

1530
01:54:15,080 --> 01:54:15,240
No.

1531
01:54:15,400 --> 01:54:16,060
Chair Lozman.

1532
01:54:28,060 --> 01:54:29,260
Chair, if I could just add.

1533
01:54:29,860 --> 01:54:34,220
Now that the vote's been cast, this matter will be referred to the City Council for

1534
01:54:34,220 --> 01:54:39,160
final decision at Monday's City Council meeting, which is December 12th.

1535
01:54:39,680 --> 01:54:44,500
They will take up the application with a negative recommendation from the Planning

1536
01:54:44,500 --> 01:54:45,060
and Zoning Commission.

1537
01:54:48,420 --> 01:54:52,120
I'm sorry, yes, as Mr. Dolomit said, for introduction, for first reading.

1538
01:54:57,190 --> 01:54:59,570
Thank you, everyone, for coming and for all the input.

1539
01:55:02,350 --> 01:55:03,650
Next is our work agenda.

1540
01:55:04,550 --> 01:55:05,210
Department reports.

1541
01:55:05,890 --> 01:55:06,310
Thank you.

1542
01:55:17,330 --> 01:55:19,770
Would you like to take a five-minute break to clear out the room?

1543
01:55:22,450 --> 01:55:22,710
Okay.

1544
01:55:22,930 --> 01:55:23,030
Wait a minute.

1545
01:55:26,780 --> 01:55:27,580
I do all the things.

1546
01:55:27,960 --> 01:55:29,000
I think we're close to the meeting.

1547
01:55:29,500 --> 01:55:30,040
I'm good.

1548
01:55:31,500 --> 01:55:31,880
Hi.

1549
01:56:47,870 --> 01:56:53,770
Okay, I do have a few items just to remind the commissioners of several of the upcoming

1550
01:56:53,770 --> 01:56:54,830
meetings that we have.

1551
01:56:55,290 --> 01:56:59,390
We do have this special meeting to discuss the comprehensive plan scheduled for December

1552
01:56:59,390 --> 01:57:03,710
15th at 6.30 p.m. so I just wanted to remind you of that.

1553
01:57:04,190 --> 01:57:10,530
That meeting we will go over revisions based on prior meetings for Chapter 4 and then

1554
01:57:10,530 --> 01:57:15,490
get into Chapter 5. I also want to bring to your attention, as you've noticed that we've

1555
01:57:15,490 --> 01:57:19,510
had some commercial property owners that have attended our public hearings from time to time.

1556
01:57:20,130 --> 01:57:25,830
Staff has made a concerted effort through this process to schedule review meetings regarding

1557
01:57:25,830 --> 01:57:32,250
the draft plan at different stages. We continue to get feedback that they still have some

1558
01:57:32,250 --> 01:57:36,790
concerns with this plan in the direction where it is heading and mostly in a couple

1559
01:57:36,790 --> 01:57:41,790
of the commercial areas, largely I think the central core, the town center kind of area,

1560
01:57:42,170 --> 01:57:45,250
olive and ballast, as well as the east olive corridor.

1561
01:57:46,270 --> 01:57:51,390
So at the request of a couple of them, several of them actually, staff is going to meet with

1562
01:57:51,390 --> 01:57:57,910
them tomorrow to just listen to their concerns and we'll report back to you on the 15th,

1563
01:57:57,910 --> 01:58:02,350
but I didn't want to let the commission know that that has been a request, that they

1564
01:58:02,350 --> 01:58:04,870
wanting to meet with staff, the city administrator, myself,

1565
01:58:05,450 --> 01:58:08,190
Whitney, and then I know Chair Kistner has also been

1566
01:58:08,190 --> 01:58:09,590
invited to that meeting as well.

1567
01:58:10,750 --> 01:58:12,450
And that will, yeah.

1568
01:58:12,870 --> 01:58:13,670
What time is the meeting?

1569
01:58:13,830 --> 01:58:14,890
That's at 1 o'clock.

1570
01:58:16,550 --> 01:58:18,730
I just wanted to let the commission know that that

1571
01:58:18,730 --> 01:58:23,470
is something that's been requested by several commercial

1572
01:58:23,470 --> 01:58:26,830
proprietors and real estate brokers, as well as, I

1573
01:58:26,830 --> 01:58:28,550
think, their affiliate with the Chamber of Commerce.

1574
01:58:28,550 --> 01:58:36,190
So relative to that, I believe we're still on schedule to hopefully wrap up the process

1575
01:58:36,190 --> 01:58:41,990
on the 15th with a possible resolution if directed by the Commission to prepare one for

1576
01:58:41,990 --> 01:58:43,310
the 19th.

1577
01:58:43,490 --> 01:58:47,790
We'll see where we head, obviously, with the next meeting, but I still believe at this

1578
01:58:47,790 --> 01:58:49,230
time that we're on track to do that.

1579
01:59:13,770 --> 01:59:19,110
So on December 19th we will also have four items on that meeting agenda.

1580
01:59:19,710 --> 01:59:26,850
So I think I tried to warn you last time. We're getting much busier, so this commission will be very busy for the next couple of months, I think, at least.

1581
01:59:27,070 --> 01:59:29,070
We have a lot of things on the horizon.

1582
01:59:31,250 --> 01:59:34,490
We're also going to cancel the January 3rd meeting, first meeting of January.

1583
01:59:34,630 --> 01:59:39,250
That's been canceled, so our next regular meeting after the 19th will be on the 17th.

1584
01:59:39,290 --> 01:59:43,130
And just briefly, I thought I'd spend, I know we've been here a little while, but yes.

1585
01:59:43,130 --> 01:59:49,950
Is it even remotely realistic to think that we could do four matters plus the comprehensive

1586
01:59:49,950 --> 01:59:51,810
plan on the 19th?

1587
01:59:52,310 --> 01:59:57,810
No, I would say what we're thinking of is we're dedicating the 15th for the comprehensive

1588
01:59:57,810 --> 01:59:58,210
plan.

1589
01:59:58,210 --> 01:59:59,870
So it'll also pain to explore.

1590
02:00:00,000 --> 02:00:06,860
No. No, the 15th is a special meeting. Special meeting just for the comp plan. Nothing else will be discussed.

1591
02:00:07,380 --> 02:00:09,480
Did the comp plan well take place on the 15th?

1592
02:00:09,480 --> 02:00:09,780
Correct.

1593
02:00:10,160 --> 02:00:11,160
But then the resolution?

1594
02:00:11,220 --> 02:00:12,840
The resolution would happen on the 15th.

1595
02:00:12,940 --> 02:00:19,140
Depending on where we stand with things on the 15th, and that's the question staff is going to ask of the commission on the 15th.

1596
02:00:19,820 --> 02:00:29,120
If we're at a place there, if you feel like we're ready, then we could potentially then request you address staff to prepare resolution to adopt on the 19th.

1597
02:00:29,780 --> 02:00:33,900
If we're not, if there are still things left to discuss, whatever the case may be,

1598
02:00:34,280 --> 02:00:36,980
the next available meeting would be the second meeting in January

1599
02:00:36,980 --> 02:00:38,760
because we're going to cancel the first meeting.

1600
02:00:40,320 --> 02:00:48,120
The four projects that we have coming up for the 19th includes the continuation of PANDF Express.

1601
02:00:48,940 --> 02:00:56,120
Priority is doing a site development plan approval for an addition to their multi-purpose thing.

1602
02:00:56,120 --> 02:00:58,920
thing, we don't foresee that it's a huge issue.

1603
02:01:00,160 --> 02:01:02,380
Deerbergs is looking for a master sign plan,

1604
02:01:02,880 --> 02:01:04,880
and the villas at Mosley subdivision

1605
02:01:05,200 --> 02:01:07,400
is looking to amend the RDD ordinance

1606
02:01:07,400 --> 02:01:11,660
to allow for a minor addition within the setback

1607
02:01:12,080 --> 02:01:13,080
of the rear yard.

1608
02:01:14,660 --> 02:01:16,900
Again, I'm not sure that that's going

1609
02:01:16,900 --> 02:01:19,480
to take a two-hour discussion.

1610
02:01:20,040 --> 02:01:25,420
So is the Deerbergs sign plan a substantial change

1611
02:01:25,420 --> 02:01:26,540
to what they have today?

1612
02:01:26,540 --> 02:01:35,400
No, not overly substantial, but I mean there could be some discussion, I don't

1613
02:01:35,400 --> 02:01:38,140
foresee it to be more a long discussion though.

1614
02:01:40,540 --> 02:01:42,360
It seems like if we're going to

1615
02:01:42,360 --> 02:01:48,420
be doing much to the comprehensive plan other than passing it as drafted that

1616
02:01:48,420 --> 02:01:57,100
that does seem ambitious to get through. Well that's where I think on the 15th, if everything seems to be in order then at that point there

1617
02:01:57,100 --> 02:01:59,880
there shouldn't be, at least coming from the commission,

1618
02:02:00,140 --> 02:02:00,780
a lot of changes.

1619
02:02:01,160 --> 02:02:03,780
If we're still getting a lot of disagreement,

1620
02:02:04,220 --> 02:02:07,480
if we're going back and forth on various elements

1621
02:02:07,480 --> 02:02:09,480
on the 15th, then it probably will be ready.

1622
02:02:10,320 --> 02:02:12,880
Yeah, and I think chapter four is obviously,

1623
02:02:13,080 --> 02:02:14,880
that's the bulk of where we're at now

1624
02:02:14,880 --> 02:02:16,840
with some of the comments we've received.

1625
02:02:18,200 --> 02:02:19,940
We will summarize all of this

1626
02:02:19,940 --> 02:02:22,000
like we did with the first round of revisions.

1627
02:02:22,100 --> 02:02:24,780
We had the meeting on the 7th and the 21st,

1628
02:02:24,880 --> 02:02:25,620
which were split.

1629
02:02:25,620 --> 02:02:29,160
you know Chapter 4 is kind of split between those two meetings so we've

1630
02:02:29,160 --> 02:02:32,620
gotten all the notes we're going to compile that and then our consultant

1631
02:02:32,620 --> 02:02:36,340
will issue kind of a memo of revisions based on all these discussions that

1632
02:02:36,340 --> 02:02:41,060
we've had if there's feedback from the commercial property owners that we think

1633
02:02:41,060 --> 02:02:45,700
that at least that will communicate that to you and if there's some further

1634
02:02:45,700 --> 02:02:50,160
refinements or whatnot that will be presented to you but my goal is to

1635
02:02:50,160 --> 02:02:54,260
to incorporate into the suggested revisions

1636
02:02:54,260 --> 02:02:57,780
for the final take on the 15th.

1637
02:02:57,780 --> 02:03:01,740
And actually the changes would be in the form of revisions,

1638
02:03:01,860 --> 02:03:03,820
and this would be going all the way back to chapter one,

1639
02:03:03,980 --> 02:03:04,920
you know, when we start going.

1640
02:03:05,360 --> 02:03:07,880
No, we've already looked at chapter one and two.

1641
02:03:07,880 --> 02:03:09,720
Well, I know we did, but you asked we were going through.

1642
02:03:10,060 --> 02:03:13,340
We would say, you know, that doesn't really seem

1643
02:03:13,340 --> 02:03:15,240
consistent with this whole point over here.

1644
02:03:15,720 --> 02:03:19,360
And he would say, yeah, that's a good point.

1645
02:03:19,360 --> 02:03:20,680
I'm going to clean that up, so.

1646
02:03:21,120 --> 02:03:23,020
The most changes were all made, and then you were,

1647
02:03:25,150 --> 02:03:26,810
in some rise, that made all the changes.

1648
02:03:27,510 --> 02:03:29,950
Have we read it? I mean, have we seen it read it?

1649
02:03:30,530 --> 02:03:31,090
I hope so.

1650
02:03:31,870 --> 02:03:36,370
No, I was always reading forward into the next section that we were doing.

1651
02:03:36,710 --> 02:03:38,150
I haven't gone back in seven years.

1652
02:03:38,150 --> 02:03:41,470
No, no. What we did was, so we took chapters one and two.

1653
02:03:41,850 --> 02:03:43,810
I think we did one and two.

1654
02:03:43,810 --> 02:03:44,290
One, two, and three.

1655
02:03:44,430 --> 02:03:46,870
Yeah, one, two, and three, at the first meeting.

1656
02:03:47,870 --> 02:03:49,770
And then we had some discussion.

1657
02:03:49,770 --> 02:03:53,670
There's some revisions we went through remember those strategies and we tweaked some of that

1658
02:03:53,670 --> 02:03:58,350
And then what we did was we had the staff kind of synthesized all that information

1659
02:03:58,350 --> 02:04:05,350
We sent that to the consultant and he prepared a memo of revisions that we discussed at the meeting

1660
02:04:06,010 --> 02:04:11,730
In November and so yeah, we've gone through all that we've already reviewed those chapters unless

1661
02:04:12,380 --> 02:04:17,930
Anything we're doing now whether we'd want to go back and clarify, but I wouldn't see that that would be a whole lot

1662
02:04:17,930 --> 02:04:25,130
I will say that I could double check with our current applicants to see if there's

1663
02:04:25,130 --> 02:04:29,650
anyone willing to postpone to the January, maybe the priori would be

1664
02:04:29,650 --> 02:04:36,590
willing to consider. I mean waiting, we did give them a heads up when they

1665
02:04:36,590 --> 02:04:40,290
were talking with us about how we were hearing that we'd get a lot at the

1666
02:04:40,290 --> 02:04:46,210
same time and to plan for an extra meeting just in case, so I can do

1667
02:04:46,210 --> 02:05:06,060
that if you wish yeah I don't think we're gonna have for yeah I mean given

1668
02:05:06,060 --> 02:05:09,680
where I mean we haven't really heard anything from them so we don't know I

1669
02:05:10,220 --> 02:05:15,920
mean in all likelihood they could be asking to postpone it additionally so we

1670
02:05:15,920 --> 02:05:19,560
or more than we could play it by year at that point as well.

1671
02:05:20,460 --> 02:05:23,640
That's the one if somebody were going to put a gun,

1672
02:05:24,500 --> 02:05:26,040
that would probably be the one.

1673
02:05:34,770 --> 02:05:37,030
We're still going to inform right with the,

1674
02:05:37,170 --> 02:05:39,370
since I'll have to be out on handed to.

1675
02:05:39,950 --> 02:05:40,510
All right.

1676
02:05:40,890 --> 02:05:40,950
Yeah.

1677
02:05:41,470 --> 02:05:41,950
OK.

1678
02:05:45,780 --> 02:05:48,480
Just weekend we used this, so the 17th is the next,

1679
02:05:48,800 --> 02:05:50,040
is the first meeting in January?

1680
02:05:50,620 --> 02:05:50,960
Correct.

1681
02:05:51,220 --> 02:05:51,440
Yes.

1682
02:06:02,120 --> 02:06:10,600
Yeah, we could present that to you for the 19th. We can incorporate all those changes as

1683
02:06:10,600 --> 02:06:11,940
attached to the resolution.

1684
02:06:13,600 --> 02:06:17,380
Could it be, could a consultant have incorporated that

1685
02:06:17,380 --> 02:06:20,660
into a PDF and we'd be able to look at that

1686
02:06:20,660 --> 02:06:23,240
before you basically give it to us at the meeting?

1687
02:06:24,860 --> 02:06:27,180
Yeah, we could do a summary of all the revisions

1688
02:06:27,180 --> 02:06:28,640
if that's what you're asking about.

1689
02:06:28,960 --> 02:06:30,120
The revisions have been made.

1690
02:06:30,680 --> 02:06:32,780
The revisions have been made is the document

1691
02:06:32,780 --> 02:06:37,780
that is, is there now a revised document?

1692
02:06:38,100 --> 02:06:38,480
No.

1693
02:06:38,480 --> 02:06:43,380
We haven't gotten through all of Chapter 4 and 5, so that's what we're waiting for.

1694
02:06:43,660 --> 02:06:51,480
I think my report is fixed. Ideally, I know we usually get it, you know, the Friday before, but once that document was ready...

1695
02:06:52,220 --> 02:06:56,780
We will try to get it, we can certainly try to get it to you as soon as possible, yeah.

1696
02:06:56,960 --> 02:06:58,140
I'm all happy. It worked fine.

1697
02:06:58,480 --> 02:07:03,280
Even if it was not with the complete packet, but it would be nice just to have that piece and hear this.

1698
02:07:03,280 --> 02:07:08,440
Yeah, I mean it is it is a here what you're saying it is aggressive it is the 15th

1699
02:07:09,060 --> 02:07:13,340
Going through the remainder of it. That is a very quick turnaround to try to get something to you on 19th

1700
02:07:13,340 --> 02:07:15,920
It is very quick, and maybe it's a little too quick

1701
02:07:28,220 --> 02:07:28,680
It's just

1702
02:07:33,280 --> 02:07:37,120
of the members, including both commercial property owners

1703
02:07:37,120 --> 02:07:38,920
and developers have expressed concern.

1704
02:07:40,240 --> 02:07:45,600
They really want to have time to consider or be heard

1705
02:07:45,600 --> 02:07:49,780
without regarding like-to requests to the final vote

1706
02:07:49,780 --> 02:07:51,080
be delayed 60 days.

1707
02:07:52,060 --> 02:07:54,420
Now, they've had this.

1708
02:07:54,960 --> 02:07:58,560
This did not suddenly get out there.

1709
02:07:59,020 --> 02:08:01,400
So we've been working.

1710
02:08:01,400 --> 02:08:04,420
they've had this plan for many, many months.

1711
02:08:05,060 --> 02:08:07,520
The idea that they're just now seeing it in the holidays

1712
02:08:07,520 --> 02:08:14,560
or upon them in 82 months, it needs to be taken in context.

1713
02:08:15,120 --> 02:08:21,640
But there is a, whether they're late to the game or not,

1714
02:08:21,860 --> 02:08:24,220
there's a feeling of concern in the businesses.

1715
02:08:24,220 --> 02:08:43,890
And if we do proceed quickly, may create issues or a lack of a sense that somehow people weren't

1716
02:08:43,890 --> 02:08:47,110
hurrying that they really did have a lot of opportunity and stuff.

1717
02:08:48,170 --> 02:08:51,150
And I wouldn't disagree with that feeling either.

1718
02:08:52,090 --> 02:08:56,550
I think it is important to take the time that's needed to ensure a good process.

1719
02:08:56,670 --> 02:08:57,750
I do feel like we have that.

1720
02:08:57,870 --> 02:09:00,430
I feel like we've had a very solid process with this.

1721
02:09:00,670 --> 02:09:02,270
So I don't have any concerns with that.

1722
02:09:02,690 --> 02:09:06,050
And I do echo some of your comments too of the timeliness of this.

1723
02:09:07,530 --> 02:09:14,030
Be it as it may, you know, we've got, I think we've got a couple things to consider.

1724
02:09:14,190 --> 02:09:20,050
I think, you know, we do need to take the additional time to hear further concerns a little bit more time.

1725
02:09:20,050 --> 02:09:26,550
I definitely do not disagree with that, and I hope the meeting tomorrow will be fruitful. I hope it'll be productive

1726
02:09:27,050 --> 02:09:27,850
so maybe

1727
02:09:28,650 --> 02:09:34,150
Staff can have an opportunity to kind of discuss some of these concepts in a greater in greater detail and clarify

1728
02:09:34,150 --> 02:09:35,950
So I do think there's a little bit of confusion

1729
02:09:35,950 --> 02:09:41,590
I think there's a little bit of uncertainty of what the plan actually says versus what I think they're trying to get out of it

1730
02:09:41,590 --> 02:09:46,870
But be it as it may I mean that's an opportunity for that to happen and I'll report back to you on that

1731
02:09:47,590 --> 02:09:52,310
But the 19th may just be a little bit too aggressive and that's fine.

1732
02:09:52,950 --> 02:09:56,010
We can continue it to the 17th.

1733
02:09:56,090 --> 02:10:01,130
I will also say just one more comment is we've had our consultant attend a lot of meetings

1734
02:10:02,410 --> 02:10:07,370
and there is a point where the scope of services and the work of the consultant will enter

1735
02:10:07,370 --> 02:10:13,070
the picture as to how many meetings are, you know, I'm going beyond what was approved

1736
02:10:13,070 --> 02:10:14,030
in the city's scope.

1737
02:10:16,630 --> 02:10:23,730
But if we were to say in advance that it's not going to be taken up on the 19th, then

1738
02:10:23,730 --> 02:10:25,710
the consultant doesn't have to show up.

1739
02:10:25,930 --> 02:10:26,590
That's right.

1740
02:10:26,890 --> 02:10:35,310
And we would just, now, you know, we've come so far, we've put so much intensity on the

1741
02:10:35,310 --> 02:10:39,930
one hand, I don't like the idea of delaying it a month, but what's the real downside

1742
02:10:42,630 --> 02:10:50,880
to waiting that extra period of time, it would certainly allow us to say to the businesses,

1743
02:10:51,260 --> 02:10:55,160
you know, not only did you have the 18-month period, you know, when it was being developed,

1744
02:10:56,120 --> 02:10:58,040
but we delayed it a month.

1745
02:10:58,520 --> 02:10:58,740
Yeah.

1746
02:10:58,980 --> 02:10:59,980
I think that's good.

1747
02:10:59,980 --> 02:11:00,040
Yeah.

1748
02:11:00,280 --> 02:11:00,920
I think it's good.

1749
02:11:01,380 --> 02:11:01,680
It's good.

1750
02:11:01,800 --> 02:11:02,020
Right.

1751
02:11:02,280 --> 02:11:03,840
60 days is a way overboard.

1752
02:11:04,420 --> 02:11:04,600
Yeah.

1753
02:11:04,700 --> 02:11:05,040
It is.

1754
02:11:05,340 --> 02:11:07,400
And they may have said the 60 days.

1755
02:11:13,820 --> 02:11:22,960
We don't have that, we know going into it that there is some breathing room between the 15th and the...

1756
02:11:22,960 --> 02:11:27,740
Okay, and I would say nothing's published during the writing that the 19th is going to happen.

1757
02:11:28,340 --> 02:11:31,800
It's just a thought process that we had with staff based on where we're in.

1758
02:11:31,800 --> 02:11:34,320
So that's fine.

1759
02:11:34,920 --> 02:11:37,380
If we, it sounds like 19th is probably a little too aggressive

1760
02:11:37,380 --> 02:11:39,840
based on the feeling of commission, that's perfectly fine.

1761
02:11:40,020 --> 02:11:44,880
So we will communicate that back to the consultant

1762
02:11:46,840 --> 02:11:49,300
and the people that we're gonna meet with tomorrow

1763
02:11:49,300 --> 02:11:52,120
and we'll go from there and see what we can,

1764
02:11:52,440 --> 02:11:53,640
see where we are in the 15th.

1765
02:11:53,640 --> 02:11:55,720
I think that's gonna be a real listening test

1766
02:11:55,720 --> 02:11:58,820
for us at that point to see where we are.

1767
02:11:58,820 --> 02:12:03,720
So the only other comment that I had, if there's no further discussion on the COMP plan,

1768
02:12:03,920 --> 02:12:06,940
and I appreciate the feedback, we'll go forward with that in mind,

1769
02:12:07,640 --> 02:12:14,860
is you did receive in your packet some information from an applicant that went through our process.

1770
02:12:15,600 --> 02:12:20,400
They were approved last December, December 21st, it's at shops at Westgate.

1771
02:12:21,760 --> 02:12:27,740
There had been several iterations of that plan to get them toward the stage

1772
02:12:27,740 --> 02:12:29,460
where the commission approved the project.

1773
02:12:30,000 --> 02:12:33,340
There was a lot of staff review time spent even before I arrived,

1774
02:12:33,680 --> 02:12:35,300
but I know Whitney was involved with it.

1775
02:12:35,740 --> 02:12:37,380
But be it as it may, there are some comments

1776
02:12:37,380 --> 02:12:39,500
of that I wanted to pass along to you.

1777
02:12:39,520 --> 02:12:41,340
They took the time to write them.

1778
02:12:42,080 --> 02:12:45,920
We had a phone conversation with the city manager,

1779
02:12:46,500 --> 02:12:50,060
I'm sorry, city minister, the mayor, myself and representatives

1780
02:12:50,060 --> 02:12:53,200
of the arts committee on just kind of their thoughts

1781
02:12:53,200 --> 02:12:56,040
on the process and what they think that the roles

1782
02:12:56,040 --> 02:12:58,580
of staff should be in the commission and so forth.

1783
02:12:59,620 --> 02:13:01,920
I mean, I'm available to answer any questions

1784
02:13:01,920 --> 02:13:04,420
if you had the time to read it, but I just wanted to pass it

1785
02:13:04,420 --> 02:13:07,220
along to you as feedback that we received based

1786
02:13:07,220 --> 02:13:10,280
on one applicant's review of our process.

1787
02:13:26,050 --> 02:13:26,650
Do you think?

1788
02:13:28,310 --> 02:13:31,550
Well, I think that some of the comments are right.

1789
02:13:32,150 --> 02:13:36,530
We, staff's role, though, we see our role as trying to,

1790
02:13:37,050 --> 02:13:39,970
you know, put applicants in a good position to comply

1791
02:13:39,970 --> 02:13:44,430
with the ordinances and with the objectives of our planning documents. That's our job to

1792
02:13:44,430 --> 02:13:50,470
do that and to seek compliance of those and that forms the basis of our recommendation.

1793
02:13:51,310 --> 02:13:55,190
At the end of the day, we are recommending, we are a recommending entity, staff has

1794
02:13:55,190 --> 02:14:00,270
no authority of ourselves unless you put it, you or the city council puts that authority

1795
02:14:00,270 --> 02:14:04,870
back to us. But otherwise these plans go before you and they either pass a test

1796
02:14:04,870 --> 02:14:06,230
so they don't know they comply or they don't.

1797
02:14:07,350 --> 02:14:11,550
When we reach this situation where we have some stalemates

1798
02:14:11,550 --> 02:14:14,630
or disagreements, my view is it's up to the applicant.

1799
02:14:14,830 --> 02:14:17,090
They can proceed and present their case to the commission.

1800
02:14:17,710 --> 02:14:18,270
That's normal.

1801
02:14:18,410 --> 02:14:19,610
That's a normal part of the process.

1802
02:14:20,470 --> 02:14:21,990
We are also not designers.

1803
02:14:22,370 --> 02:14:24,850
We are not the ones submitting the application

1804
02:14:24,850 --> 02:14:26,230
and designing it for them.

1805
02:14:26,550 --> 02:14:27,530
That is not our role.

1806
02:14:28,050 --> 02:14:30,810
Our role is basically as a recommendation

1807
02:14:32,490 --> 02:14:33,810
for professional staff.

1808
02:14:33,810 --> 02:14:40,790
So, I think this particular application had a lot of different elements that maybe weren't typical.

1809
02:14:41,110 --> 02:14:47,010
One is that they had the public art component that created a whole new process where the arts committee had to kind of look at that

1810
02:14:47,010 --> 02:14:52,850
and provide recommendations. That was a delay. There was a lot of concerns with how that site was being changed

1811
02:14:52,850 --> 02:14:59,410
and how to keep it in conformance with the city's requirements for landscaping, pedestrian activity and so forth.

1812
02:15:00,460 --> 02:15:09,800
But I also heard a little bit of frustration with the site bonus coverage that that's very discretionary and, you know, and it is. It is discretionary.

1813
02:15:10,180 --> 02:15:19,880
How much is it to get 63 to 64 percent? What do I need to do to get that 1 percent? But that is a discretionary measure that we do have in the code.

1814
02:15:19,880 --> 02:15:21,260
So I think there's, yeah.

1815
02:15:21,260 --> 02:15:22,860
That one was originally complicated

1816
02:15:22,860 --> 02:15:26,580
because the original plan had site bonus coverage

1817
02:15:26,580 --> 02:15:28,400
and they were taking away some of things

1818
02:15:28,400 --> 02:15:30,000
from that site bonus coverage.

1819
02:15:30,700 --> 02:15:31,820
And then that means new things.

1820
02:15:32,340 --> 02:15:35,060
So it was, by their own doing,

1821
02:15:35,520 --> 02:15:40,460
they complicated it substantially so that it was almost,

1822
02:15:40,600 --> 02:15:43,380
it was really hard to keep track of what he would lost.

1823
02:15:43,940 --> 02:15:48,960
And then in other cases, they were suggesting

1824
02:15:48,960 --> 02:15:54,320
that part of the bonus was that they were going to fix what they hadn't done in the previous

1825
02:15:54,320 --> 02:16:01,340
like bonus coverage. So I mean, there's a lot of push-pull from the previous one. It was

1826
02:16:01,340 --> 02:16:07,800
very difficult to make a clear comparison or decisions.

1827
02:16:08,080 --> 02:16:13,100
Yeah, there was. By the time it kind of came back after a year's break, it took two

1828
02:16:13,100 --> 02:16:21,700
meetings to get to get it approved so you know just it's just there for your

1829
02:16:21,700 --> 02:16:25,880
advisement your consideration I think that they make some points they're kind of

1830
02:16:25,880 --> 02:16:31,520
outside the process about you know what the city can do to help encourage

1831
02:16:31,520 --> 02:16:43,000
citizens to buy locally you know the importance of that because that's important not just for our commercial residents but also in terms of the city it would certainly benefit

1832
02:16:43,000 --> 02:16:52,200
people buying locally. I don't know how realistic that is in terms of implementation, but if there was a way to do that, I think that that would be great.

1833
02:16:55,400 --> 02:16:59,540
Some of these points that they make are just restates on some of your questions.

1834
02:16:59,980 --> 02:17:05,240
Is the case. So I'm not sure yet. There's a little sour grapes and some of it just...

1835
02:17:05,240 --> 02:17:08,320
All the students of the Planning Commission may be appealed to the City Council.

1836
02:17:08,320 --> 02:17:10,180
They are the elected by it.

1837
02:17:10,280 --> 02:17:10,340
Yeah.

1838
02:17:10,460 --> 02:17:11,480
Well, OK.

1839
02:17:11,860 --> 02:17:12,240
That's true.

1840
02:17:13,040 --> 02:17:14,680
It's not a point that someone has to make.

1841
02:17:15,240 --> 02:17:16,320
It is what it is.

1842
02:17:18,820 --> 02:17:20,200
Did you move the decision?

1843
02:17:20,440 --> 02:17:21,020
I'm sorry.

1844
02:17:21,380 --> 02:17:22,040
It's not a decision.

1845
02:17:24,080 --> 02:17:25,360
Yes, that's right.

1846
02:17:31,250 --> 02:17:33,330
Nothing wrong with somebody speaking their mind.

1847
02:17:34,010 --> 02:17:35,670
I just thought it was a little less outbreak.

1848
02:17:40,990 --> 02:17:42,070
Thanks for bringing it.

1849
02:17:42,330 --> 02:17:42,650
Sure.

1850
02:17:42,750 --> 02:17:43,850
Thanks for sharing it with us.

1851
02:17:44,490 --> 02:17:46,730
That's the only comments I had for this evening.

1852
02:17:47,270 --> 02:17:47,570
Thank you.

1853
02:17:48,070 --> 02:17:48,350
To

1854
02:17:53,240 --> 02:17:53,580
adjourn.

1855
02:17:54,080 --> 02:17:54,460
Salute.

1856
02:17:54,900 --> 02:17:55,280
Second.

1857
02:17:55,900 --> 02:17:56,100
Second.

1858
02:17:56,860 --> 02:17:57,460
All in favor?

1859
02:17:57,820 --> 02:17:58,160
Aye.

1860
02:18:07,720 --> 02:18:08,540
Oh, when is it?

1861
02:18:09,240 --> 02:18:10,140
It's tomorrow.

1862
02:18:10,720 --> 02:18:14,260
I gotta go to Kentucky to work first.

1863
02:18:14,720 --> 02:18:15,740
The rest of the week.

1864
02:18:15,920 --> 02:18:16,340
Oh, really?

1865
02:18:16,560 --> 02:18:16,940
Sometimes.

1866
02:18:20,880 --> 02:18:22,920
You win some, you lose some.