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Welcome to the Town of Dairy Planning Board meeting

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for April 1st, 2026.

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We promise we won't make any foolish decisions tonight.

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We normally start with Pledge

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of Allegiance if you would rise and join me.

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Aye. Pledge Pledge. The United States of America.

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America Republic stands one nation under

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indivisible with liberty and justice.

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I'll start with some administrivia.

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The playing board voluntarily continues

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to offer remote participation.

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If any member of the planning board participates remotely,

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the vote shall be by roll call.

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To attend this meeting remotely using a computer

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or smartphone, point your browser to

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www zoom us.

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Enter meeting ID

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seven five four six six three nine one two.

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You may also call in by phone for audio only.

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Phone number is (646) 558-8656.

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Same meeting ID 7 5 4 6 6 3 9 1 2.

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If you have problems on the technical nature,

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call (603) 845-5585.

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If you're on the phone and you want to participate,

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hit star nine to raise your hand to be recognized.

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And star six two.

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Unmute yourself once you have been recognized

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and if there is an alarm activation, please use the exit

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where you came in at the rear of the room

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or the exit to my right, to your left, which will

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unlock when the alarm sounds.

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I will now introduce the staff

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and members present tonight to my far right alternate.

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Mr. Mousy. Good evening, Mr. Appleton.

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Evening planning Director Ms. Du. Good evening clerk.

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Ms. Wilson Town Council Liaison.

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Mr. Chase. Good evening.

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Newly appointed permanent member, Mr. Wood, congratulations.

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Thank you. Good evening, Mr. Menini. Good evening.

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Our vice chair. Mr. O'Connor. Good evening.

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My far left is our Community Access media coordinator. Mr.

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Preventer. Good evening. Member Mr.

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Fishman, Town Administrator Representative. Mr.

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Ello. Good evening, Mr. Pier. Good evening.

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And and secretary. Mr. Alibi. I'm Dave Nelson.

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I'm the chair. So being our organizational meeting

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of the year, the first thing we do is,

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is election of officers.

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And I guess I, I should ask whether everyone who was,

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whose term was up, did everyone get their oath conducted?

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I was informed, Yes. Okay, great.

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So on the election of officers, let's start with the chair.

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Are there any nominations, Mr.

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Chair, for chair for this year,

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I would like to nominate yourself Mr. David Nelson.

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Second. Okay. Second.

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There've been a no nomination

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for Mr. O'Connor, seconded by Mr.

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Fishman for David Nelson as chair for the coming years.

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There. Any other nominations,

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if not Mr. Chase?

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Yes. Mr. Wood? Yes. Mr. Menini? Yes. Mr. O'Connor? Yes.

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Yes. Mr. Fisherman. Mr. Churchill? Yes. Mr. Paler? Yes. Mr.

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Malley? Yes. And I'll gladly accept and vote. Yes.

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Next we have the vice chair.

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I would like to nominate John O'Connor. Second.

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So nomination by Brian Ello. Seconded by Mr. Intervening.

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Was it? Yes. I wasn't looking for the position

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of vice chair for the coming year.

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Are there any other nominations? Not Mr. Chase.

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Yes. Mr. Wood? Yes. Mr. Menini? Yes. Mr. O'Connor? Yes.

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Mr. Fisherman? Yes. Mr. Chair Cello? Yes. Mr. Pier? Yes.

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And Mr. Maby? Yes. And chair votes? Yes. Thank you.

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And finally, for secretary, do we have a nomination

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for secretary for the coming year? I'd

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Like to nominate Mr.

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Maby. Second.

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Okay. So O'Connor moves Peir seconds.

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The nomination of Malibu for secretary for the coming year.

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Are there any other nominations? Mr. Chase? Yes.

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Mr. Wood? Yes. Mr. Menini? Yes. Mr. O'Connor? Yes. Mr.

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Fisherman? Yes. Mr. Ello? Yes. Mr. Pelletier? Yes. Mr.

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Maby grateful? Yes. Right. And the chair votes? Yes.

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Sadly, your correspondence folder is still empty tonight.

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They don't care about me.

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Let's move on to regular order of business. First is escrow.

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We have item number 26 0 8 to establish

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for durable trailers.

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Okay. So the project name is seven a street change of use

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for durable trailers.

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LLC. The escrow type is cash escrow

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and the property is located at seven a street.

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The request is to establish cash escrow in the amount

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of $22,626 and 25 cents for the above noted project.

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This escrow is non-interest bearing.

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Okay. What is the board's pleasure?

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Mr. Chair, please establish cash escrow in the amount

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of $22,626 and 25 cents for the above noted project.

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The escrow was in non-interest, barren and ISO move.

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Second, moved by O'Connor, seconded by Melanie

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to accept the escrow as presented.

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Mr. Chase? Yes. Mr. W. Mr. Wood? Yes. Mr. Veni? Yes.

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Mr. O'Connor? Yes. Mr. Fishman? Yes. Mr. Ello? Yes. Mr.

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Pier? Yes. Mr. Maby? Yes. And the chair votes? Yes. Great.

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Next item on the agenda is item 26 dash oh nine.

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Annual review of our cash escrow balances.

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Okay. So these escrow balances are as

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of March 4th, 2020 sixth.

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Running down the list.

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There are some that you'll note are a little bit older.

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The T-Mobile northeast is a,

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that's a removal bond type thing.

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So that will kind of remain in perpetuity for a cell tower.

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The Kershaw escrow is for the completion

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of the, the little mini putt putt area.

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They haven't moved forward with with that.

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So we will hold escrow on that.

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And then the remainder are not quite as old

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and these numbers have been reviewed

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and the amounts deemed adequate for any remaining work.

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Okay. And I assume that all of these

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plans have met the criteria for active

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and substantial developments.

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So they are

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Not Meeting extensions.

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Correct? I know of prime storage. We looked at that one.

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The other, the other day.

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That one is just in June of this year.

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It will lose its vesting for

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any pretend any zoning changes that have happened.

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But they are, they're all able

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to be developed as is.

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Okay. And so your recommendation is to find the

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escrows adequate?

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Yes. What is the board's pleasure on that

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Mr.

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Chair? I move to find the list

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of the open cash escrows are held in the amounts which

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provide adequate security

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for the proposed length of the project.

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The amounts listed above are in the ending principle

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and interest amounts as of March 4th, 2026.

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Number 26 dash nine. So I so move.

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Second. Moved by O'Connor, seconded by Malibu to find the

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escrow accounts sufficient.

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Mr. Chase? Yes. Mr. Wood? Yes. Mr. Menini? Yes.

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Mr. O'Connor? Yes. Mr. Fishman? Yes. Mr. Ello? Yes.

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Palantier? Yes. Mr. Maby? Yes. Chair votes? Yes.

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And now we move on to minutes.

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We have before US approval of minutes

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for March 18th, 2026.

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Has anyone seen any errors or omissions?

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If not, what is the board's pleasure

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Seeing Nobody raise their hands.

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I move to accept as written. Mr. Chair. Second.

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Moved by O'Connor, seconded by Malibu

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to accept the minutes of March 18th as written.

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Mr. Chase, I will abstain. I was not present. Mr. Wood? Yes.

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Mr. Menini? Yes. Mr. O'Connor? Yes. Mr. Fishman.

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I'll abstain. I was not present. Mr. Ella? Yes. Mr. Pier?

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Yes. Mr. Libby? Yes. And chair votes? Yes.

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Next item is annual review of non-public minutes.

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We don't have any. We released all of them. Wow. Last year.

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So nothing really to do on that other than announced

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that we don't have any correspondence.

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Sadly, the correspondence file is empty, so,

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so we'll move on to other business.

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We have Parcel ID 0 3 1 2 9 Parcel ID

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0 3 0 7 6 8 Stark Road

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and 2 0 2 Rockingham Road.

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It is a voluntary merger.

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Okay. So Mr. Palmer owns two

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adjacent lots in common ownership.

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One front's on Stark

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and the other front's on Rockingham Road.

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The intent is to voluntarily merge the lots.

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Eight Stark Road is just over 10 acres

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and currently there's a garlic farm on it.

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The lot is also slightly encumbered

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with a billboard easement,

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but that does not affect the merger.

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2 0 2 Rockingham Road is a little less than an acre

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and it's a triangle piece of land adjacent

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to the Rockingham Rail Trail.

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2 0 2 Rockingham Road will be deleted.

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An eight Stark Road retained.

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These voluntary mergers are approved pursuant to

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RA 6 74 39 A and we do not require a public hearing.

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So the recommendation would be

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to approve the voluntary merger.

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Okay. Where's our minute maker here?

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So do we need to accept jurisdiction on this? No. No.

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Alright. Any questions?

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If not, what is the board's pleasure? Okay,

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Mr.

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Chair, move to approve the voluntary merger

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of eight Stock Road and 2 0 2 Rockingham Road.

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The parcel to be retained is PID

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0 3 1 2 9 8 Stock Road.

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The parcel to be deleted is PID

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zero three zero seven six two hundred and two

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Rockingham Road. So move.

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Okay. It moved by O'Connor, seconded by Mallie

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to approve the voluntary merger.

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Mr. Chase? Yes. Mr. Wood? Yes. Mr. Menini? Yes.

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Mr. O'Connor? Yes. Mr. Fishman? Yes. Mr. Chair Cello? Yes.

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Mr. Pier? Yes. Mr. Maby? Yes. Chair votes? Yes.

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The, we have annual review of board policy and procedures

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and there were some items in our packet regarding that.

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We should review those. I don't know

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that we necessarily need to make a final decision tonight,

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especially if, if there are some things

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that maybe need some research.

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But maybe Ms.

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Roberta, would you please review the suggestions with us?

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Okay. I can. So there no legislative changes have occurred

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that would require any updates at this time

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when we were looking

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or kind of looking through what we have for language

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under section five, conduct of meetings.

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There's manner of voting.

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We have been doing roll call votes on almost all votes.

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We don't necessarily have to do that.

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So I thought it might be a good idea for the board to kind

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of take a look at that and see when it's

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appropriate to do roll call.

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Always. When we have a virtual a member attending virtually,

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then all votes are by roll call.

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But for things like, you know,

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things that are like open a public hearing or,

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or they're not substantive that are, could be appealable.

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We could probably do the, the, you know, eyes have it.

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But I would appreciative if the board could kind

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of take a look at that and gimme some feedback as

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to which way they wanna go.

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I don't know if we have to incorporate

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it into the procedures.

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We can if we want to. But at least take a look at that.

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One of the things in, I know some

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of you have Al also took the training

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under Section six Order of Business. Can we

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Go ahead and stop?

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Let's discuss these one at a time. Okay. Yep.

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So yes, my practice has been to always take a roll call,

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vote on anything that's an approval

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or decision that would result in a notice of decision.

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And then take eyes

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and nays on purely procedural things such as

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opening public hearings, closing public hearings,

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adjourning things that will not affect anyone's application.

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So if we wanna put that in the rules, then that's fine.

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But that has been my, my practice just

253
00:13:26,165 --> 00:13:28,925
to make them the meetings move more smoothly.

254
00:13:28,955 --> 00:13:31,605
Does anyone have any thoughts or concerns about that?

255
00:13:33,785 --> 00:13:36,885
No, I'm fine with that. Okay. Hearing none.

256
00:13:36,885 --> 00:13:38,605
Alright, let's move on to the next one. Okay.

257
00:13:39,305 --> 00:13:43,085
So one of the trainings that was conducted

258
00:13:43,085 --> 00:13:46,485
by New Hampshire, BEA, indicated

259
00:13:46,555 --> 00:13:49,405
that the planning board should vote on a waiver request

260
00:13:49,735 --> 00:13:51,525
prior to accepting jurisdiction.

261
00:13:51,975 --> 00:13:55,565
Their rationale was that if, if there are checklist items

262
00:13:55,745 --> 00:13:58,365
and you have to meet all of the checklist items in order to

263
00:14:00,595 --> 00:14:03,975
accept jurisdiction, if someone's asked

264
00:14:04,055 --> 00:14:06,655
for a waiver from one of those until the board votes up

265
00:14:06,655 --> 00:14:10,735
or down on that waiver, then that item is left open.

266
00:14:12,875 --> 00:14:14,695
It has not been the board's policy

267
00:14:15,155 --> 00:14:17,095
to operate in that manner.

268
00:14:18,515 --> 00:14:21,135
And I'm was a little confused

269
00:14:21,155 --> 00:14:25,095
and I had mentioned it to Mr. Nelson

270
00:14:25,285 --> 00:14:28,255
that I don't know how we are accepting jurisdiction

271
00:14:28,255 --> 00:14:29,615
and then we open the public hearing

272
00:14:29,745 --> 00:14:33,615
after that our decisions are made during a public hearing.

273
00:14:34,235 --> 00:14:37,255
So we're looking for guidance from the board.

274
00:14:37,515 --> 00:14:38,575
How you wanna, I suggest, proceed,

275
00:14:38,575 --> 00:14:41,215
Suggest that there are two valid sides to this, right?

276
00:14:41,315 --> 00:14:46,015
Yes. I mean, I think the point that the BEA is making

277
00:14:46,715 --> 00:14:50,415
is that if there is a waiver request

278
00:14:51,115 --> 00:14:56,005
that causes a substantial piece of information, a report,

279
00:14:57,085 --> 00:15:00,725
a compliance with a regulation to be missing,

280
00:15:01,755 --> 00:15:04,685
then it might be that the planning board would legitimately

281
00:15:04,705 --> 00:15:06,525
say, there's not enough information here

282
00:15:07,305 --> 00:15:08,685
for us to make a decision.

283
00:15:09,945 --> 00:15:13,485
And you would like them to come back with

284
00:15:13,485 --> 00:15:15,005
that information before you start?

285
00:15:16,245 --> 00:15:18,885
I think it's currently what, a 60 day clock? Yes.

286
00:15:19,245 --> 00:15:22,005
Once, once a plan hits our desk, we have 60 days to,

287
00:15:22,865 --> 00:15:24,325
you know, accept or, or, or,

288
00:15:24,345 --> 00:15:27,325
or deny, you know, it could be with or without prejudice.

289
00:15:27,345 --> 00:15:30,485
And, and so that's a that's a good point.

290
00:15:31,465 --> 00:15:33,685
The other thing that concerns me is, is what Ms.

291
00:15:33,875 --> 00:15:38,605
Robo points out that waivers are in the statute, we have

292
00:15:38,605 --> 00:15:40,045
to have a waiver process.

293
00:15:40,875 --> 00:15:44,005
They're expected to be granted as part of application

294
00:15:44,925 --> 00:15:49,365
deliberation and application deliberation is supposed to be

295
00:15:49,425 --> 00:15:51,725
during and after a public hearing.

296
00:15:52,545 --> 00:15:57,165
And so making substantive decisions on whether we would

297
00:15:57,165 --> 00:15:58,685
or would not grant a waiver

298
00:15:58,785 --> 00:16:01,405
before we even accept jurisdiction gets

299
00:16:01,405 --> 00:16:02,605
us a file on the other side of that.

300
00:16:02,785 --> 00:16:06,445
So maybe we try

301
00:16:06,445 --> 00:16:08,325
to split it in the middle and,

302
00:16:08,385 --> 00:16:11,605
and have the staff report that

303
00:16:12,665 --> 00:16:16,845
the waivers that are requested should cause the board

304
00:16:16,845 --> 00:16:18,125
to have some concern about whether

305
00:16:18,125 --> 00:16:19,405
there's sufficient information.

306
00:16:21,425 --> 00:16:23,045
And in that case we would

307
00:16:23,985 --> 00:16:26,205
not necessarily vote on the waivers

308
00:16:26,325 --> 00:16:27,965
'cause I think we should do that in a public hearing.

309
00:16:28,345 --> 00:16:31,285
But we might say the absence of that information,

310
00:16:31,355 --> 00:16:33,045
whether it's requested a waiver

311
00:16:33,065 --> 00:16:36,805
or not, is not sufficient for us to, to proceed.

312
00:16:37,805 --> 00:16:39,725
I think we can maybe have it both ways

313
00:16:39,745 --> 00:16:41,405
and not get a foul of Okay.

314
00:16:41,405 --> 00:16:43,725
Of the law that way. Anyone? Yeah, so I

315
00:16:43,845 --> 00:16:45,965
I I'm just thinking it's almost backwards to me

316
00:16:45,965 --> 00:16:48,005
because when you accept jurisdiction,

317
00:16:48,105 --> 00:16:50,165
you're basically saying that the plan is complete.

318
00:16:50,745 --> 00:16:52,165
If I don't accept jurisdiction,

319
00:16:52,165 --> 00:16:53,325
you're saying there's something missing.

320
00:16:54,065 --> 00:16:56,845
So why would I approve a waiver on a, on something

321
00:16:56,865 --> 00:16:59,725
that's I feel is not complete doesn't make sense to me.

322
00:16:59,955 --> 00:17:02,045
Yeah. It's almost backwards to me. Well, so

323
00:17:02,045 --> 00:17:06,405
Waivers, we, we have occasionally gone against the advice

324
00:17:06,405 --> 00:17:07,605
of our, you know, I'll,

325
00:17:07,605 --> 00:17:08,965
I'll pick on the engineering department.

326
00:17:09,515 --> 00:17:13,325
They wanted X, Y, Z and the applicant requested a waiver

327
00:17:13,745 --> 00:17:14,805
and we heard the testimony

328
00:17:15,245 --> 00:17:16,445
and we decided, you know what,

329
00:17:16,445 --> 00:17:18,125
we're gonna grant the waiver even though the engineering

330
00:17:18,125 --> 00:17:22,085
department didn't support that because that's our function.

331
00:17:22,825 --> 00:17:25,405
So there can be things missing from the checklist,

332
00:17:26,305 --> 00:17:28,285
but that doesn't mean that the planning board should

333
00:17:28,285 --> 00:17:32,005
automatically reject the application.

334
00:17:32,205 --> 00:17:35,085
'cause the, the applicant has a kind of constitutional right

335
00:17:35,085 --> 00:17:37,445
to have their day before the quasi judicial body

336
00:17:37,445 --> 00:17:39,085
of the planning board and ask for a waiver.

337
00:17:39,925 --> 00:17:41,925
Yeah. So, and then once we take jurisdiction,

338
00:17:42,065 --> 00:17:44,445
as you mentioned, the, the clock starts, correct?

339
00:17:44,465 --> 00:17:46,965
Yes it Does. Yep. So now, you know,

340
00:17:47,265 --> 00:17:49,460
you've gotta have everything, all your ducks in a row.

341
00:17:49,460 --> 00:17:51,230
That's why I'm thinking when, when I heard that,

342
00:17:51,305 --> 00:17:52,805
it almost sounds like everything was backwards

343
00:17:52,805 --> 00:17:53,805
There.

344
00:17:53,805 --> 00:17:55,605
Yeah. So I mean, for things, if we had a large

345
00:17:56,735 --> 00:17:59,045
large traffic user come to town

346
00:17:59,705 --> 00:18:02,765
and they submitted a waiver request to the planning board

347
00:18:02,765 --> 00:18:04,565
to not submit a traffic report,

348
00:18:05,405 --> 00:18:08,125
I would definitely in my staff report say,

349
00:18:09,645 --> 00:18:11,925
I would recommend you find the application incomplete.

350
00:18:11,925 --> 00:18:14,885
They've asked for a waiver to not supply a traffic report.

351
00:18:15,325 --> 00:18:17,325
That's, that's something you're really gonna need

352
00:18:17,325 --> 00:18:18,405
to make an informed decision.

353
00:18:18,875 --> 00:18:21,565
Obviously it's the board's decision whether they want

354
00:18:21,565 --> 00:18:23,885
to accept it as complete and then vote on the waiver late

355
00:18:23,985 --> 00:18:28,365
or, but things like that, those type of checklist items

356
00:18:29,035 --> 00:18:32,605
that have a big impact on your decision making process.

357
00:18:32,925 --> 00:18:36,165
I think you, we would, if they submitted a waiver request,

358
00:18:36,265 --> 00:18:39,085
we would bring it up, you know, ahead of time for you guys

359
00:18:39,085 --> 00:18:41,005
to look at when you accept jurisdiction.

360
00:18:41,185 --> 00:18:45,725
But things like ask for a waiver

361
00:18:45,825 --> 00:18:47,565
to not put a granite bound there

362
00:18:47,565 --> 00:18:50,165
because it's an existing iron pin on a corner

363
00:18:50,345 --> 00:18:53,045
or, you know, things that, or snapping Yeah.

364
00:18:53,045 --> 00:18:55,525
Even though technically bounds are part of the checklist,

365
00:18:55,785 --> 00:18:57,645
that's something that really should be discussed

366
00:18:57,645 --> 00:19:01,205
during a public hearing to see if it's, so there's that.

367
00:19:01,705 --> 00:19:04,085
Oh, but I wanted clear direction

368
00:19:04,085 --> 00:19:07,845
because when I attended the workshop I was like, oh no.

369
00:19:09,275 --> 00:19:11,605
Like I've been telling you wrong things all along,

370
00:19:12,025 --> 00:19:13,925
but I, I think, you know, there's an argument

371
00:19:13,925 --> 00:19:15,085
for both sides of it.

372
00:19:15,785 --> 00:19:17,245
Mr. Conan, you had a comment? Yeah.

373
00:19:17,315 --> 00:19:18,765
Most of it's administrative.

374
00:19:20,665 --> 00:19:24,165
One of the questions I have is that there's two divisions.

375
00:19:24,165 --> 00:19:25,685
There's the subdivision regulation

376
00:19:25,685 --> 00:19:29,125
60, 74 36, which is optional.

377
00:19:30,065 --> 00:19:35,045
And then there's site plan regulation 6 74 44 is required.

378
00:19:35,505 --> 00:19:39,645
So we may have to need two explanations if we do decide

379
00:19:39,645 --> 00:19:42,165
to put something into the policy and procedures

380
00:19:42,665 --> 00:19:45,365
and need to break out which one is which

381
00:19:45,365 --> 00:19:47,165
and what do we have to fall to if we

382
00:19:47,675 --> 00:19:49,445
have a particular state.

383
00:19:49,635 --> 00:19:53,125
Well, it sounds like dairy require both

384
00:19:54,555 --> 00:19:55,845
subdivision and site plan.

385
00:19:56,205 --> 00:20:01,005
I I have a feeling that that BEA legal advice might have

386
00:20:01,005 --> 00:20:03,645
been more targeted towards smaller towns

387
00:20:03,645 --> 00:20:05,845
that don't have professional staff where, you know,

388
00:20:05,845 --> 00:20:07,125
you get five members of the planning board

389
00:20:07,125 --> 00:20:08,005
and they're trying to figure this out

390
00:20:08,005 --> 00:20:09,205
on a, on a Thursday night.

391
00:20:09,335 --> 00:20:13,245
Right. So we have the advantage

392
00:20:13,245 --> 00:20:14,965
of having professional staff

393
00:20:14,985 --> 00:20:18,485
and if it is a big plan, it will be subject to

394
00:20:19,155 --> 00:20:20,605
outside engineering peer review.

395
00:20:20,745 --> 00:20:21,745
Yes. So,

396
00:20:22,795 --> 00:20:23,795
Okay.

397
00:20:23,795 --> 00:20:24,805
So I, I think we're okay.

398
00:20:24,885 --> 00:20:27,325
I, I really wanted to have this discussion to get input,

399
00:20:27,345 --> 00:20:29,725
but I mean, I, I think we're okay proceeding

400
00:20:29,725 --> 00:20:31,325
the way that we have been. I,

401
00:20:32,005 --> 00:20:33,005
I prefer that.

402
00:20:33,005 --> 00:20:34,405
Okay. Alright. So

403
00:20:34,405 --> 00:20:38,125
Does anyone else have a different opinion than

404
00:20:38,945 --> 00:20:42,245
the consensus that we ought to continue the way we're doing?

405
00:20:42,945 --> 00:20:45,165
Except for if somebody comes in

406
00:20:45,165 --> 00:20:48,885
with an egregious missing piece, staff will flag that

407
00:20:48,885 --> 00:20:52,365
and we'll, we won't make accepting jurisdiction a gimme

408
00:20:52,495 --> 00:20:53,805
we'll, we'll abate it.

409
00:20:54,165 --> 00:20:56,845
Right? Okay. Because we, we, but I'll be honest,

410
00:20:56,875 --> 00:20:58,645
because we have such professional staff,

411
00:20:58,645 --> 00:21:00,125
because we have a TRC review process,

412
00:21:00,845 --> 00:21:03,005
we don't really get applicants that come in with

413
00:21:03,545 --> 00:21:04,565
big missing pieces.

414
00:21:05,105 --> 00:21:07,525
No. Sometimes they wanna waive TRC review.

415
00:21:09,075 --> 00:21:12,205
Well, We've had those. Okay. But, but that's okay.

416
00:21:12,955 --> 00:21:17,125
Alright, so moving on in the, oh, developments

417
00:21:17,125 --> 00:21:18,285
of regional impact.

418
00:21:19,265 --> 00:21:22,285
So this raises an interesting point about how,

419
00:21:23,825 --> 00:21:25,325
how we do no votes.

420
00:21:25,915 --> 00:21:29,685
Because technically if you make the emotion

421
00:21:29,705 --> 00:21:31,765
and the affirmative and everyone votes no.

422
00:21:31,765 --> 00:21:35,005
As we have been doing, it's not a,

423
00:21:35,675 --> 00:21:36,845
it's really not a negative.

424
00:21:36,895 --> 00:21:39,365
We're supposed to go and make another motion so

425
00:21:40,265 --> 00:21:42,045
we don't feel it has regional impact.

426
00:21:42,185 --> 00:21:45,245
And then you vote again to say, I move

427
00:21:45,275 --> 00:21:47,325
that this plan does not have regional impact

428
00:21:47,325 --> 00:21:48,645
for the reasons we just cited.

429
00:21:48,835 --> 00:21:51,285
Like that technically is the way it's supposed to. So

430
00:21:51,285 --> 00:21:52,485
Two, so you're basically doing it

431
00:21:52,485 --> 00:21:53,485
Twice.

432
00:21:53,485 --> 00:21:54,365
Yeah. So if there, it's, there's a no vote,

433
00:21:54,385 --> 00:21:55,645
it should be two votes.

434
00:21:55,825 --> 00:21:57,245
So the, the rationale behind this,

435
00:21:57,405 --> 00:21:59,485
'cause I, I've actually heard this from lawyers in,

436
00:21:59,485 --> 00:22:02,445
in law lectures, especially on applications,

437
00:22:04,325 --> 00:22:07,005
Applications are almost always conditional

438
00:22:09,025 --> 00:22:11,725
and they're always abut our concerns and mitigations.

439
00:22:13,025 --> 00:22:16,485
And so it's not a binary thing.

440
00:22:16,545 --> 00:22:19,525
In other words, we may have members on the board

441
00:22:20,145 --> 00:22:22,925
who would vote for an application

442
00:22:23,705 --> 00:22:24,925
if it didn't grant this waiver

443
00:22:25,105 --> 00:22:28,205
and it had mitigation for that abut So it, it,

444
00:22:28,265 --> 00:22:29,845
it, it's a menu.

445
00:22:29,955 --> 00:22:31,845
It's not a an up or down.

446
00:22:32,065 --> 00:22:34,165
On the other hand, the way I look at

447
00:22:34,765 --> 00:22:36,565
regional impact either is or isn't.

448
00:22:36,875 --> 00:22:40,485
Correct. So I don't think it matters how we vote

449
00:22:41,985 --> 00:22:44,925
on that because there's no conditions that we could apply

450
00:22:45,705 --> 00:22:47,725
to a decision on regional impact.

451
00:22:47,725 --> 00:22:48,885
That was, that's the way I look at it.

452
00:22:48,885 --> 00:22:49,805
But, and I'm looking at

453
00:22:49,805 --> 00:22:50,845
how does everyone else think about it?

454
00:22:51,385 --> 00:22:53,885
Two separate motions doesn't really change the intent.

455
00:22:54,045 --> 00:22:58,125
I mean, we can vote a certain way and the intent explained.

456
00:22:59,025 --> 00:23:02,645
So to make a second motion just to, to vote yes

457
00:23:02,655 --> 00:23:04,445
after the no doesn't really, it just

458
00:23:04,635 --> 00:23:06,525
That that's what I, silly always the,

459
00:23:06,525 --> 00:23:07,925
that's always been my thought process.

460
00:23:08,665 --> 00:23:12,645
But I think technically, so if you had an application

461
00:23:13,665 --> 00:23:16,685
and it came down to

462
00:23:19,975 --> 00:23:22,675
it was like, you know, the majority voted no

463
00:23:23,655 --> 00:23:26,355
and a couple members voted yes for the application,

464
00:23:26,855 --> 00:23:28,195
the way we've been voting now,

465
00:23:28,295 --> 00:23:29,955
the application would be denied.

466
00:23:30,895 --> 00:23:31,895
But what

467
00:23:34,085 --> 00:23:35,515
We're talking about regional impact now,

468
00:23:35,525 --> 00:23:36,525
Right?

469
00:23:36,525 --> 00:23:37,635
I was using that as an example. Yeah.

470
00:23:37,635 --> 00:23:40,675
So for on applications, absolutely I believe that the,

471
00:23:40,675 --> 00:23:44,715
the correct legal, because you can't get a majority of folks

472
00:23:45,025 --> 00:23:48,325
who agreed to the motion with its set of conditions

473
00:23:48,865 --> 00:23:53,645
as it was presented, that basically is, is just a failure

474
00:23:53,785 --> 00:23:56,485
to reach a decision what you're supposed to do.

475
00:23:56,545 --> 00:24:00,085
If you have a no vote on a motion of conditional approval,

476
00:24:00,145 --> 00:24:02,005
you're supposed to reopen discussion

477
00:24:02,025 --> 00:24:05,445
and say, well how could we change the terms

478
00:24:06,105 --> 00:24:07,965
of the approval to get to Yes.

479
00:24:08,025 --> 00:24:12,165
And that's because you're supposed to protect the rights

480
00:24:12,165 --> 00:24:14,525
of developers and landowners.

481
00:24:15,185 --> 00:24:18,005
The fact that we, you know, did not get a majority

482
00:24:18,005 --> 00:24:22,605
for a particular package of conditions and, and,

483
00:24:22,785 --> 00:24:27,165
and, and factors that is, that is not the same as a denial

484
00:24:27,515 --> 00:24:30,525
that just simply means you didn't make the, the soup Right.

485
00:24:30,525 --> 00:24:31,565
And you didn't get to Yes.

486
00:24:31,665 --> 00:24:36,205
So I, I actually was on the planning board when,

487
00:24:36,225 --> 00:24:37,245
or we lost a lawsuit

488
00:24:37,425 --> 00:24:39,725
and it was explained to us that that's what we needed to do.

489
00:24:40,225 --> 00:24:43,885
So, okay, so

490
00:24:43,945 --> 00:24:45,325
for applications, absolutely.

491
00:24:45,515 --> 00:24:47,925
Okay. A failure to get a

492
00:24:48,485 --> 00:24:51,125
majority on a affirmative motion is not a decision,

493
00:24:51,955 --> 00:24:53,965
it's a failure to reach a decision. Okay.

494
00:24:54,345 --> 00:24:57,645
So moving forward will still do the development

495
00:24:57,645 --> 00:25:00,845
of regional impact is impacts will still be the No, no, no,

496
00:25:00,845 --> 00:25:02,245
no nos unless it is Yes.

497
00:25:02,745 --> 00:25:07,045
And then for applications, it'll be at the call

498
00:25:07,045 --> 00:25:10,765
of the chair if, if we get a series of nos to decide Yes.

499
00:25:10,865 --> 00:25:11,885
If we wanna reopen that,

500
00:25:12,025 --> 00:25:13,205
If that ever happens, you know, okay.

501
00:25:13,215 --> 00:25:14,845
Staff, please remind me. Okay.

502
00:25:15,025 --> 00:25:18,125
Or whoever is sitting in the chair at that time. Okay.

503
00:25:18,125 --> 00:25:22,485
Because we so rarely actually get to a a no. Okay.

504
00:25:22,925 --> 00:25:24,125
That we're maybe out of practice.

505
00:25:24,145 --> 00:25:28,445
But yes, if we fail to reach a majority yes.

506
00:25:28,625 --> 00:25:31,885
On an affirmative action, affirm affirmative motion

507
00:25:32,345 --> 00:25:35,245
for approval, then we need to open up the discussion

508
00:25:35,265 --> 00:25:39,485
and see if something else would get to Yes. Mr. Menini

509
00:25:39,665 --> 00:25:44,405
On, on a vote, like the regional determination

510
00:25:44,405 --> 00:25:47,965
of regional impact, is there any reason why a planning board

511
00:25:47,965 --> 00:25:51,165
member couldn't motion right from the start?

512
00:25:51,465 --> 00:25:54,205
No, this does not constitute a regional impact.

513
00:25:55,145 --> 00:25:58,405
We, we could, again, it it is different than other

514
00:26:00,355 --> 00:26:01,525
motions in in a sense.

515
00:26:01,725 --> 00:26:05,045
'cause it, it, it's either yes or no. It it is or it isn't.

516
00:26:05,545 --> 00:26:07,285
But we have a longstanding practice

517
00:26:07,475 --> 00:26:10,765
that we always make motions in the affirmative is that,

518
00:26:11,305 --> 00:26:13,565
you know, gospel, I don't know, maybe not

519
00:26:14,075 --> 00:26:18,885
It's canon, but yeah, I don't, I guess we could, it, it,

520
00:26:19,565 --> 00:26:21,245
I kind of like the way we do it

521
00:26:22,155 --> 00:26:27,005
because it, it keeps that make it always make, I, I like

522
00:26:27,005 --> 00:26:30,165
that we always do it in the affirmative and then we vote no.

523
00:26:30,425 --> 00:26:34,685
And I'm afraid if we start changing that, if we fall out of

524
00:26:34,685 --> 00:26:37,925
that practice, if someone has a plan that comes forward

525
00:26:38,025 --> 00:26:40,245
and we're used to saying, well I don't agree with that,

526
00:26:40,345 --> 00:26:43,885
so I make my motion in that I vote to deny this application

527
00:26:43,885 --> 00:26:47,365
because then like we've, we've stepped outside the lines.

528
00:26:47,465 --> 00:26:50,405
But as always, this is at the board's call and pleasure.

529
00:26:51,115 --> 00:26:53,725
Yeah. And we're lucky we always have Mr. Chase sitting in

530
00:26:53,725 --> 00:26:58,525
that for seat and he, he sets us off with it.

531
00:26:58,555 --> 00:27:01,125
It's supposed to be yes or no. We just a lot of pressure.

532
00:27:01,315 --> 00:27:05,005
Yeah. You rely on your expertise Mr. Chase. Yeah.

533
00:27:07,225 --> 00:27:10,685
That's why he makes the big money over there. Yeah. Okay.

534
00:27:10,875 --> 00:27:12,445
Alright. So is everyone happy

535
00:27:12,635 --> 00:27:17,165
with that issue?

536
00:27:17,345 --> 00:27:18,845
We can move on to, okay.

537
00:27:19,265 --> 00:27:23,485
And if nobody has any suggested changes for the policy

538
00:27:23,625 --> 00:27:25,805
and procedures, then we could,

539
00:27:26,505 --> 00:27:29,165
we could vote at the next meeting to accept them, you know,

540
00:27:29,265 --> 00:27:32,885
or to not change them and just keep moving on with them.

541
00:27:34,385 --> 00:27:36,085
But if you do have some, please send them to me.

542
00:27:37,475 --> 00:27:40,125
Alright. So yeah, I mean we got the, we got the slide deck

543
00:27:40,145 --> 00:27:43,805
so I think we gotta wait till next meeting to

544
00:27:44,995 --> 00:27:48,925
make a decision so that we have a chance to look at this.

545
00:27:50,075 --> 00:27:51,125
Okay, thank you very much.

546
00:27:51,595 --> 00:27:54,965
Okay, thank you. Okay, next is

547
00:27:57,915 --> 00:27:59,725
plan planning director and chairman updates.

548
00:28:00,475 --> 00:28:01,475
Okay.

549
00:28:01,945 --> 00:28:06,765
So what I thought I might do is just

550
00:28:08,555 --> 00:28:11,405
fill you in because we don't have applications before

551
00:28:11,745 --> 00:28:14,605
and there can't be any pre-judging of applications,

552
00:28:15,245 --> 00:28:16,565
but I would like to let you know

553
00:28:16,565 --> 00:28:19,125
what staff is working on behind the scenes.

554
00:28:19,325 --> 00:28:21,365
I can let you know in a generic sense

555
00:28:21,795 --> 00:28:22,845
what we've been working on

556
00:28:23,025 --> 00:28:25,565
for technical review since the beginning of the year.

557
00:28:26,245 --> 00:28:27,445
It was pretty quiet. In January

558
00:28:27,585 --> 00:28:30,405
and February, March we have been slammed,

559
00:28:30,405 --> 00:28:31,485
we're doing two or three a week.

560
00:28:31,865 --> 00:28:36,845
So we had, we reviewed an application for redevelopment

561
00:28:36,865 --> 00:28:40,805
for about 3,800 square feet of commercial use

562
00:28:40,835 --> 00:28:43,525
with associated parking and draining drainage.

563
00:28:44,845 --> 00:28:48,765
A 12 lot subdivision redevelopment

564
00:28:48,905 --> 00:28:52,285
of over 12,000 square feet of mixed use commercial.

565
00:28:54,825 --> 00:28:59,325
We did review a site plan amendment involving 3000 square

566
00:28:59,435 --> 00:29:01,085
feet of commercial use,

567
00:29:01,185 --> 00:29:03,565
but the applicant decided they weren't

568
00:29:03,565 --> 00:29:04,645
gonna move forward with that.

569
00:29:04,905 --> 00:29:07,685
So that won't be coming to the planning board.

570
00:29:07,685 --> 00:29:09,165
There was another two lots subdivision.

571
00:29:09,385 --> 00:29:13,285
And then most recently we reviewed a new site plan

572
00:29:13,345 --> 00:29:14,445
for light industrial

573
00:29:15,545 --> 00:29:19,805
for about 20,000 square feet of new use

574
00:29:20,325 --> 00:29:22,325
with associated parking and drainage.

575
00:29:23,085 --> 00:29:24,685
Hmm. Nice. So yeah, so you've got,

576
00:29:24,705 --> 00:29:27,725
you've got a lot coming and,

577
00:29:27,785 --> 00:29:32,325
and I think, you know, this list kind of pinpoints what

578
00:29:32,875 --> 00:29:37,085
with TRC, not the things that we work on don't always get

579
00:29:37,105 --> 00:29:39,125
to the board because for some reason

580
00:29:39,145 --> 00:29:41,485
or another there might be land that is too,

581
00:29:42,075 --> 00:29:44,205
it's just not easily developed.

582
00:29:44,205 --> 00:29:48,165
And what they want to bring before us is they can't do it

583
00:29:48,565 --> 00:29:50,485
'cause they can't, they just can't meet the regulations,

584
00:29:50,485 --> 00:29:52,925
they can't get the a OT or they can't do certain things.

585
00:29:53,065 --> 00:29:56,045
So not everything we work on comes to you,

586
00:29:56,225 --> 00:29:58,165
but you know, the more majority does.

587
00:29:58,185 --> 00:30:01,245
But I thought it might be nice like every couple of months

588
00:30:01,245 --> 00:30:02,965
to give you an update on, you know,

589
00:30:02,965 --> 00:30:04,085
what we've been working on.

590
00:30:04,105 --> 00:30:06,365
And so you can anticipate what's coming to you.

591
00:30:08,415 --> 00:30:12,005
Great. Any questions on that? No, no.

592
00:30:13,065 --> 00:30:15,565
In terms of the chairman update, the only I have is that

593
00:30:15,835 --> 00:30:19,925
with the elevation of Mr. Wood to a, a full member seat,

594
00:30:19,985 --> 00:30:23,085
we now have a vacancy for an alternate position to fill

595
00:30:23,965 --> 00:30:28,565
a three year term that he was expiring

596
00:30:29,665 --> 00:30:30,845
in in March 31st.

597
00:30:30,945 --> 00:30:33,445
So again, if you think we're having fun here

598
00:30:33,805 --> 00:30:35,365
or you'd like to help your community

599
00:30:35,625 --> 00:30:37,725
and invite you to go to the town's website

600
00:30:37,725 --> 00:30:39,285
and fill in an application

601
00:30:39,485 --> 00:30:43,685
'cause we can get you added to our rank of alternates.

602
00:30:45,475 --> 00:30:49,045
Alright, next is a workshop to discuss goals,

603
00:30:50,165 --> 00:30:52,125
procedures, and policy, although we kind of discussed that

604
00:30:52,805 --> 00:30:55,965
and to set priority for future board actions.

605
00:30:59,035 --> 00:31:01,565
Okay. So I think a couple

606
00:31:02,205 --> 00:31:05,165
meetings ago I had asked if the board members had any goals

607
00:31:05,315 --> 00:31:08,205
that they were kind of wanting to put forward

608
00:31:08,845 --> 00:31:10,845
'cause this is a good meeting to set, kind

609
00:31:10,845 --> 00:31:12,085
of set those priorities.

610
00:31:12,985 --> 00:31:14,445
But I did wanna note that

611
00:31:15,425 --> 00:31:17,085
as we've been looking at applications

612
00:31:17,345 --> 00:31:19,965
and how they conform to our, our zoning

613
00:31:20,025 --> 00:31:22,245
and our land development control regulations,

614
00:31:22,635 --> 00:31:24,365
there's some things that have come up

615
00:31:24,365 --> 00:31:25,925
that have been a little quirky.

616
00:31:26,665 --> 00:31:27,845
The code enforcement officer

617
00:31:27,905 --> 00:31:31,045
and I, we meet daily sometimes two or three times a day and,

618
00:31:31,065 --> 00:31:33,085
and we, we've been struggling

619
00:31:33,085 --> 00:31:34,805
with some things in the zoning ordinance

620
00:31:34,825 --> 00:31:35,845
or things have come up

621
00:31:35,845 --> 00:31:38,205
and we're like, oh, this doesn't really make sense.

622
00:31:38,925 --> 00:31:40,805
Anyone who's been in my office knows

623
00:31:40,805 --> 00:31:43,005
that I have a big whiteboard behind my desk

624
00:31:43,025 --> 00:31:44,525
and is completely covered with things

625
00:31:44,585 --> 00:31:45,805
and every time something comes

626
00:31:45,805 --> 00:31:46,965
up I put it on the whiteboard.

627
00:31:47,065 --> 00:31:49,405
So there's an ongoing do list of things

628
00:31:49,405 --> 00:31:50,965
that we could look at.

629
00:31:54,625 --> 00:31:58,485
So what I came up with, I sat down

630
00:31:58,485 --> 00:32:00,925
with Carrie Owen, our code enforcement officer,

631
00:32:00,985 --> 00:32:03,605
and we kind of looked through, there were some things

632
00:32:03,605 --> 00:32:04,925
that the chair and I had talked about,

633
00:32:05,745 --> 00:32:06,965
you know, over the last few months.

634
00:32:06,965 --> 00:32:08,725
And then Carrie and I had looked

635
00:32:08,725 --> 00:32:11,165
through the list on the board and things that had come up.

636
00:32:11,265 --> 00:32:15,045
So what I had pres what I'm presenting to you is kind

637
00:32:15,045 --> 00:32:18,405
of a list of things that I would like the board to consider

638
00:32:18,545 --> 00:32:21,885
and if you would agree we can, we can get them on a list

639
00:32:21,905 --> 00:32:23,205
and maybe prioritize them.

640
00:32:23,545 --> 00:32:27,605
And we are working on the CBD amendments with regard

641
00:32:27,725 --> 00:32:29,085
to medium density

642
00:32:29,185 --> 00:32:32,845
and low medium density residential Over the last 10 years,

643
00:32:33,455 --> 00:32:36,725
water has been extended to areas that

644
00:32:37,325 --> 00:32:38,485
previously didn't have it.

645
00:32:40,105 --> 00:32:44,845
And those lots with that particular zoning were designated

646
00:32:44,845 --> 00:32:46,045
with minimum lot areas.

647
00:32:46,225 --> 00:32:47,605
So we could accommodate septics

648
00:32:47,605 --> 00:32:51,805
and wells now that water is available to those areas,

649
00:32:51,945 --> 00:32:56,005
it might make sense to kind of look at maybe relaxing

650
00:32:56,005 --> 00:32:59,925
that area requirement, not necessarily frontage

651
00:32:59,925 --> 00:33:02,365
or any of that, but like the area requirement

652
00:33:02,625 --> 00:33:03,765
or the minimum lot area.

653
00:33:04,505 --> 00:33:07,485
And it would, where we have the,

654
00:33:07,905 --> 00:33:10,525
the municipal water available, we can, you know, kind

655
00:33:10,525 --> 00:33:12,245
of relax that radius that we might have needed

656
00:33:12,465 --> 00:33:16,525
and it would also allow for a little bit more density

657
00:33:16,705 --> 00:33:18,645
but not too much density in these areas.

658
00:33:18,985 --> 00:33:21,725
So I would ask if the board would maybe consider that.

659
00:33:24,325 --> 00:33:25,605
I mean, I think it's a good thing to review

660
00:33:26,065 --> 00:33:27,525
as we add infrastructure.

661
00:33:29,885 --> 00:33:33,485
I was always under the impression that I sewer or,

662
00:33:33,585 --> 00:33:37,005
or subsurface, you know, private septic was the kind

663
00:33:37,005 --> 00:33:38,805
of controlling factor for density

664
00:33:38,805 --> 00:33:42,085
because yes, there is a protective radius on the well,

665
00:33:42,185 --> 00:33:44,725
but that's fairly easy to,

666
00:33:46,105 --> 00:33:50,645
to me easier than the, the private septic system design.

667
00:33:50,705 --> 00:33:55,245
So I think it would be good to review that. Okay. I agree.

668
00:33:55,445 --> 00:33:58,605
I don't know that the water alone will necessarily make a

669
00:33:58,605 --> 00:33:59,725
big difference, but we ought to have that

670
00:33:59,725 --> 00:34:00,765
data in front of us, I think.

671
00:34:00,765 --> 00:34:04,565
Okay. Does anyone all feel differently or agree

672
00:34:04,565 --> 00:34:05,565
Or No?

673
00:34:05,565 --> 00:34:07,645
I, I think we have to because if you're in a particular zone

674
00:34:07,745 --> 00:34:10,885
and now you have water and sewer, as Dave mentioned, water

675
00:34:10,885 --> 00:34:13,605
and sewer typically meant you could build on, I dunno

676
00:34:13,605 --> 00:34:14,805
what it was, 10,000 square feet.

677
00:34:15,165 --> 00:34:17,245
Yeah. Because you have water and sewer.

678
00:34:17,785 --> 00:34:19,965
But if you're in a zone that has water and sewer now,

679
00:34:20,225 --> 00:34:23,565
but the zone itself requires X amount of land,

680
00:34:23,625 --> 00:34:25,245
but you've got water and sewer.

681
00:34:25,345 --> 00:34:29,885
So now you've got competing areas of of that

682
00:34:29,885 --> 00:34:31,045
that don't make sense together.

683
00:34:31,305 --> 00:34:33,685
Beyond that, I, I don't know, we,

684
00:34:33,705 --> 00:34:36,565
we were tracking this in the last legislative session.

685
00:34:36,565 --> 00:34:41,125
There was a bill that would limit the ability

686
00:34:41,125 --> 00:34:45,845
of towns to have I think what more than two acres.

687
00:34:46,695 --> 00:34:49,565
Everything was gonna be a maximum of one.

688
00:34:49,595 --> 00:34:51,645
Like it was a one acre zoning every time. Yeah. I

689
00:34:51,645 --> 00:34:53,605
Don't think, I don't think that's going anywhere, but

690
00:34:53,605 --> 00:34:54,925
No, it didn't. But that

691
00:34:54,925 --> 00:34:55,925
Was on there.

692
00:34:55,925 --> 00:34:56,805
But yeah, but it, it said everything was gonna be just,

693
00:34:56,865 --> 00:34:57,165
you know,

694
00:34:58,575 --> 00:35:02,485
soils, septic and soil.

695
00:35:02,625 --> 00:35:04,725
So that could come back

696
00:35:05,425 --> 00:35:09,725
and having done this review would probably put us in a

697
00:35:09,725 --> 00:35:10,925
good proactive position.

698
00:35:11,275 --> 00:35:14,845
Yeah, I I I'd rather see non conflicting areas.

699
00:35:15,505 --> 00:35:17,885
So if we do review it, we'll, we'll pick up on those.

700
00:35:18,585 --> 00:35:22,815
Now was there some survey of this already in process?

701
00:35:23,605 --> 00:35:25,295
Some somewhat in process? I'm sorry?

702
00:35:25,315 --> 00:35:27,495
Was there a study all already in process?

703
00:35:27,815 --> 00:35:32,775
I, I thought I heard maybe it was in the

704
00:35:32,775 --> 00:35:35,255
capital plan discussion.

705
00:35:35,295 --> 00:35:36,695
I don't know. Or maybe I dreamt it.

706
00:35:37,635 --> 00:35:40,765
Yeah, I think, I'm trying to remember where I, I know that

707
00:35:42,665 --> 00:35:44,565
we were looking at density stuff like that.

708
00:35:44,605 --> 00:35:46,685
I think that's part of our master plan thing,

709
00:35:47,665 --> 00:35:50,325
but I know water and sewer is being extended to areas

710
00:35:50,395 --> 00:35:53,485
that we didn't think we would get it in like the next 20

711
00:35:53,485 --> 00:35:54,925
years and they have it now.

712
00:35:56,025 --> 00:35:59,205
So, and you know, some developers are extending water.

713
00:35:59,425 --> 00:36:00,605
We you were part of that Southern

714
00:36:00,625 --> 00:36:01,765
New Hampshire water project.

715
00:36:01,835 --> 00:36:04,725
Yeah. So and oh that's what I was thinking. Yeah.

716
00:36:04,725 --> 00:36:05,885
The Southern New Hampshire Water project.

717
00:36:06,185 --> 00:36:08,805
So there's those we,

718
00:36:08,845 --> 00:36:10,525
I think we really need to just look at it.

719
00:36:11,425 --> 00:36:14,205
But I do think that you're correct on the CIP

720
00:36:14,205 --> 00:36:16,285
that was presented by Mr. Fowler.

721
00:36:16,865 --> 00:36:19,805
Was that the, like going down Ryan's hill

722
00:36:20,235 --> 00:36:22,405
that they're talking about putting sewer in there?

723
00:36:22,805 --> 00:36:26,085
Yeah. Yeah. And so, because a lot of that soils now is going

724
00:36:26,085 --> 00:36:29,125
to concur with you is most of the soils over there.

725
00:36:29,465 --> 00:36:32,605
You can't build anything but auto dealership.

726
00:36:33,465 --> 00:36:34,565
But if you can correct it

727
00:36:34,565 --> 00:36:37,645
and put septic in there, that mean that land opens up.

728
00:36:37,665 --> 00:36:41,525
And same thing with east der a lot of the soils there are,

729
00:36:41,865 --> 00:36:43,445
you need three acres Yeah.

730
00:36:43,505 --> 00:36:44,965
To justify a septic. So

731
00:36:45,105 --> 00:36:46,645
How would we do this?

732
00:36:46,665 --> 00:36:48,925
Is this something that can be done in house with engineering

733
00:36:48,925 --> 00:36:50,645
or do we need hire a consultant? We

734
00:36:50,645 --> 00:36:51,645
Can do it in-house.

735
00:36:51,645 --> 00:36:53,525
We can take a look at, it's

736
00:36:53,525 --> 00:36:55,205
In Doug Rathburn should have stuff on

737
00:36:55,225 --> 00:36:56,365
it. You're aware of all that stuff.

738
00:36:56,885 --> 00:36:58,645
I know the engineering department rep is not here

739
00:36:58,645 --> 00:36:59,845
while we're making that commitment.

740
00:36:59,845 --> 00:37:02,765
But yeah, that's okay. We can take a look at,

741
00:37:02,865 --> 00:37:04,565
we can take a look at our existing areas

742
00:37:04,635 --> 00:37:07,725
that are zoned MDRL in LMDR.

743
00:37:07,905 --> 00:37:10,405
We can look at where water

744
00:37:10,505 --> 00:37:12,965
and sewer is has either has expanded

745
00:37:13,025 --> 00:37:14,125
or is proposed

746
00:37:14,145 --> 00:37:16,325
to be expanded within the next five or six years.

747
00:37:16,675 --> 00:37:19,365
Yeah. And we can, we can take a look at that

748
00:37:19,505 --> 00:37:21,885
and see what we have available for land

749
00:37:22,345 --> 00:37:24,045
and that can help the board make a better

750
00:37:24,365 --> 00:37:25,565
informed decision on that.

751
00:37:25,755 --> 00:37:26,755
Yeah.

752
00:37:27,115 --> 00:37:30,205
Yeah. 'cause I know that's been a long town goal

753
00:37:30,425 --> 00:37:35,285
for Ryans Hill is to increase the marketability

754
00:37:35,305 --> 00:37:38,125
of those properties more commercially.

755
00:37:38,305 --> 00:37:40,005
So we, so the town can kind

756
00:37:40,005 --> 00:37:41,525
of bring in more val overall value.

757
00:37:41,985 --> 00:37:44,005
As someone mentioned the car lots, there's not a lot

758
00:37:44,005 --> 00:37:46,645
of value there, but if you bring water

759
00:37:46,645 --> 00:37:48,245
and sewer, you know,

760
00:37:48,705 --> 00:37:50,765
now you can do different things on that hill.

761
00:37:50,765 --> 00:37:52,685
It's just another area of town that we, they

762
00:37:52,685 --> 00:37:55,325
that could potentially be built commercially

763
00:37:56,115 --> 00:37:58,805
that will bring overall value to the town.

764
00:37:59,385 --> 00:38:02,205
So I think, I think Mike Fowl has mentioned last year we

765
00:38:02,205 --> 00:38:07,045
brought in $50 million worth of overall town value we did.

766
00:38:07,055 --> 00:38:08,885
Which really helped the tax rate.

767
00:38:09,505 --> 00:38:11,525
And I think this year he's got another 50,000.

768
00:38:11,525 --> 00:38:13,245
We're gonna need that because I,

769
00:38:13,485 --> 00:38:15,045
I know I'm going off on a tangent here,

770
00:38:15,105 --> 00:38:18,445
but come December there's gonna be a big tax

771
00:38:18,445 --> 00:38:19,805
bill increase coming up.

772
00:38:20,745 --> 00:38:25,085
And so the biggest tool that the town has is

773
00:38:25,085 --> 00:38:27,765
to bring in development to offset some of that.

774
00:38:27,865 --> 00:38:30,645
So to kind of put into the overall value of the town.

775
00:38:30,785 --> 00:38:34,045
So if we do look at these areas that have the water

776
00:38:34,045 --> 00:38:37,645
and sewer then, and we can make some decisions like Ryan's

777
00:38:37,645 --> 00:38:39,085
Hill and say, all right, we wanna do this

778
00:38:39,385 --> 00:38:41,245
bigger densities and all that. So,

779
00:38:41,915 --> 00:38:42,915
Okay.

780
00:38:42,915 --> 00:38:45,125
So I, I will reiterate, I think I said oh,

781
00:38:45,635 --> 00:38:48,925
long time ago when I, when we first convened last year,

782
00:38:49,535 --> 00:38:53,925
alternates who are not sitting to vote are able

783
00:38:54,025 --> 00:38:57,525
and encouraged to participate in these kinds of discussions.

784
00:38:58,345 --> 00:39:01,685
So Oh yeah. If you have questions

785
00:39:01,745 --> 00:39:04,245
or you have ideas, go ahead and chime in.

786
00:39:04,245 --> 00:39:06,885
Otherwise I might end up, you know, picking on you.

787
00:39:06,905 --> 00:39:08,685
You know. Anyone, anyone, anyone. Bueller?

788
00:39:12,145 --> 00:39:13,445
So are we done with We're

789
00:39:13,445 --> 00:39:14,445
Done with that one?

790
00:39:14,445 --> 00:39:15,765
That one. Okay. Let's move, move on to the next.

791
00:39:16,345 --> 00:39:18,805
So we have been talking for a little bit about creating

792
00:39:18,865 --> 00:39:21,445
our non-normative workforce housing index.

793
00:39:22,055 --> 00:39:24,565
We're supposed to have a workforce housing ordinance.

794
00:39:25,625 --> 00:39:30,125
We, we support all of the things in the RSA

795
00:39:30,325 --> 00:39:32,605
that speak to workforce housing, the types

796
00:39:32,605 --> 00:39:33,725
of housing we allow and

797
00:39:33,725 --> 00:39:36,165
where we allow it in the densities that we allow it.

798
00:39:36,945 --> 00:39:39,045
But it's scattered throughout our zoning ordinance.

799
00:39:39,145 --> 00:39:42,445
So that all kind of needs to be pulled together and,

800
00:39:42,505 --> 00:39:44,645
and put in and have an index somewhere so

801
00:39:44,645 --> 00:39:48,245
that people can look at it and, and see that we do conform.

802
00:39:48,385 --> 00:39:51,085
So that's something that really should be done this year

803
00:39:53,345 --> 00:39:55,365
and that's something that staff can work on

804
00:39:55,385 --> 00:39:56,525
and just bring to the board.

805
00:39:56,625 --> 00:39:57,765
But I just wanted to make sure

806
00:39:57,765 --> 00:39:59,285
that the board was in agreement with

807
00:39:59,285 --> 00:40:01,855
that goal. I'm seeing heads

808
00:40:01,855 --> 00:40:02,855
Nodding so it's not normative.

809
00:40:02,895 --> 00:40:05,455
'cause we don't wanna actually change inadvertently

810
00:40:05,455 --> 00:40:06,895
change the, the zoning.

811
00:40:07,185 --> 00:40:10,255
Would this actually be part of the ordinance?

812
00:40:15,375 --> 00:40:16,775
I mean we can figure that out when we get there. Yeah.

813
00:40:17,135 --> 00:40:19,095
I guess I'm, does it have to go to the town council?

814
00:40:19,995 --> 00:40:22,455
If we add it to the ordinance, it would have to go

815
00:40:22,455 --> 00:40:24,535
to town council because it would be in addition to one

816
00:40:24,535 --> 00:40:26,535
of the articles and it would be a subsection. But

817
00:40:26,535 --> 00:40:28,175
Is that what we were thinking at this point?

818
00:40:29,155 --> 00:40:30,415
I'm not quite sure. I i,

819
00:40:30,535 --> 00:40:32,415
I maybe pull all the information together

820
00:40:32,515 --> 00:40:34,175
and see how we could Okay.

821
00:40:34,175 --> 00:40:35,375
Or where we would insert it

822
00:40:36,035 --> 00:40:40,575
and it, it, it, I don't know that it would, I don't know

823
00:40:40,575 --> 00:40:41,815
that we wanna have it as an appendix,

824
00:40:41,835 --> 00:40:44,495
but I think maybe when we pull all the data together

825
00:40:45,915 --> 00:40:49,015
and bring it to the board, we can maybe discuss

826
00:40:49,015 --> 00:40:50,215
where we think it best fits.

827
00:40:50,455 --> 00:40:54,055
I mean, my only thought was that the description

828
00:40:54,055 --> 00:40:57,255
of non-normative as being part of an ordinance is sort

829
00:40:57,255 --> 00:40:58,535
of an oxymoron, but Right.

830
00:40:58,755 --> 00:41:00,255
So we have to figure that out. But

831
00:41:00,485 --> 00:41:01,485
Okay.

832
00:41:01,485 --> 00:41:03,415
It could be that we, it's just an insert

833
00:41:03,415 --> 00:41:06,175
that we put at in our ordinance at the beginning

834
00:41:06,235 --> 00:41:09,695
or something after the table of contents. So

835
00:41:09,695 --> 00:41:12,175
We wanna clear on what we're, we're doing here rather than

836
00:41:13,505 --> 00:41:15,575
doing a massive edit of the zoning ordinance

837
00:41:15,575 --> 00:41:17,855
and pulling all the pieces that have to do

838
00:41:17,855 --> 00:41:19,135
with the workforce housing out

839
00:41:19,135 --> 00:41:20,775
of the districts in which they exist

840
00:41:20,775 --> 00:41:22,655
and putting 'em in, in one article.

841
00:41:23,385 --> 00:41:26,215
We're making an index that points to all the pieces so

842
00:41:26,215 --> 00:41:27,095
that if you're interested in

843
00:41:27,095 --> 00:41:28,215
workforce housing, you can find them.

844
00:41:28,215 --> 00:41:29,215
All right.

845
00:41:30,525 --> 00:41:32,455
Okay. Okay. Alright. So I'll work on that.

846
00:41:33,385 --> 00:41:34,605
And these are, I i,

847
00:41:34,895 --> 00:41:37,405
these are just other things that came up.

848
00:41:38,385 --> 00:41:41,205
Update the language regarding the ground in roof solar.

849
00:41:41,965 --> 00:41:43,805
I think I'd mentioned when we did the Abbott court,

850
00:41:44,715 --> 00:41:47,045
when we had the Abbott court discussion a little bit ago,

851
00:41:47,625 --> 00:41:49,965
we don't talk about how we regulate rooftop.

852
00:41:50,545 --> 00:41:51,845
So maybe we wanna look at that

853
00:41:53,585 --> 00:41:57,085
update the time limit on the non-conforming use provision.

854
00:41:57,815 --> 00:42:02,085
Right now we have language that says if the use lapses,

855
00:42:02,665 --> 00:42:04,365
you have a year to put a similar,

856
00:42:04,535 --> 00:42:07,405
exact same type use in there.

857
00:42:07,625 --> 00:42:12,365
Are I, I don't know that it needs

858
00:42:12,365 --> 00:42:14,885
to be a whole year for that

859
00:42:16,025 --> 00:42:18,765
and maybe we decrease that.

860
00:42:19,855 --> 00:42:21,515
Is there some case law on this though?

861
00:42:22,235 --> 00:42:25,475
I can look into that. I wasn't aware

862
00:42:25,535 --> 00:42:27,075
of any, but I'll double check.

863
00:42:27,385 --> 00:42:28,385
Okay.

864
00:42:33,615 --> 00:42:34,875
The only, Oh,

865
00:42:34,875 --> 00:42:35,875
I'm sorry.

866
00:42:35,875 --> 00:42:36,395
No, no, I I'm just thinking

867
00:42:36,395 --> 00:42:39,755
that there may be legitimate reasons financing

868
00:42:39,945 --> 00:42:41,195
insurance company dragging

869
00:42:41,195 --> 00:42:42,355
their feet. There could be a lot of reasons.

870
00:42:42,655 --> 00:42:44,355
That's what I was gonna say. If it's, if it's the fire

871
00:42:44,365 --> 00:42:45,795
issue, sometimes it

872
00:42:45,795 --> 00:42:46,795
Takes No, no, no.

873
00:42:46,795 --> 00:42:50,995
So it would be, so say say I have a,

874
00:42:53,555 --> 00:42:57,115
I have an ice cream parlor and it's in a residential zone.

875
00:42:57,225 --> 00:42:58,315
Yeah. Making this up.

876
00:42:58,465 --> 00:43:01,235
It's not a permitted use in the residential district. Right.

877
00:43:01,235 --> 00:43:03,435
But there's been an ice cream parlor there for 20 years.

878
00:43:04,145 --> 00:43:06,515
Well, Rosie's ice cream parlor closed

879
00:43:07,295 --> 00:43:09,515
and then on month 13,

880
00:43:09,945 --> 00:43:12,275
Shawn's ice cream parlor wants to come in.

881
00:43:12,585 --> 00:43:15,395
It's past 12 months. So Shawn can't come in.

882
00:43:15,655 --> 00:43:19,635
But if Sean comes in at 11 months in the 30th day,

883
00:43:20,065 --> 00:43:23,435
Sean can open the ice cream parlor in

884
00:43:23,615 --> 00:43:24,795
In the non-conforming zone.

885
00:43:24,795 --> 00:43:26,315
In the non-conforming zone. And what, that's

886
00:43:26,315 --> 00:43:29,075
what I'm saying is I think that having that, that year

887
00:43:29,775 --> 00:43:31,355
to bring back, you know,

888
00:43:31,405 --> 00:43:34,635
there we remove uses from districts for reasons.

889
00:43:35,295 --> 00:43:37,635
And I don't think we wanna promote non-conformity.

890
00:43:38,055 --> 00:43:40,755
So I'm asking that maybe we consider tightening up

891
00:43:40,755 --> 00:43:43,115
that window where you would allow a non-conforming

892
00:43:43,255 --> 00:43:44,355
use to go back in.

893
00:43:45,115 --> 00:43:49,395
I was following the same lines as the chairman thicken.

894
00:43:49,735 --> 00:43:52,275
If you're at the ice cream shop and it burns, oh

895
00:43:52,275 --> 00:43:53,355
That's different. That's different.

896
00:43:53,355 --> 00:43:54,915
Right. That's different. And you're in a nonconforming

897
00:43:55,435 --> 00:43:59,555
and you have six months to rebuild, but there's a fire

898
00:43:59,555 --> 00:44:00,595
and they're investigating

899
00:44:00,655 --> 00:44:02,475
and insurance takes forever. Yeah.

900
00:44:02,785 --> 00:44:06,915
They shouldn't Or supposing you, you are retiring. Right.

901
00:44:06,915 --> 00:44:08,315
Because many people who own

902
00:44:08,885 --> 00:44:12,035
small sole proprietor businesses on the only way they can

903
00:44:12,335 --> 00:44:14,635
retire is, is to sell their business.

904
00:44:15,175 --> 00:44:16,955
Not necessarily just the land and, and building,

905
00:44:17,095 --> 00:44:19,275
but sell the, the business

906
00:44:19,275 --> 00:44:20,835
with its customer base and whatnot.

907
00:44:22,055 --> 00:44:26,315
I'm just concerned that there might be legal concerns with

908
00:44:27,475 --> 00:44:30,835
confiscation of the value of the business

909
00:44:30,985 --> 00:44:34,685
and the inability of the owner to have a reasonable time

910
00:44:34,745 --> 00:44:37,645
to sell the business in order to, you know,

911
00:44:38,045 --> 00:44:39,325
realize their retirement.

912
00:44:40,025 --> 00:44:43,045
So yeah, I think we need to look at those things as well.

913
00:44:43,345 --> 00:44:45,565
Not just a fire, but hey, I've had it on the market.

914
00:44:45,905 --> 00:44:48,365
It takes me a year to find a new buyer. Yeah.

915
00:44:48,505 --> 00:44:49,845
But it's actively on the market.

916
00:44:50,435 --> 00:44:52,725
Yeah. The, the fire one is its own separate,

917
00:44:53,065 --> 00:44:55,685
has its own separate language in

918
00:44:55,685 --> 00:44:57,085
conditions that are attached to that.

919
00:44:57,225 --> 00:45:01,245
So if there's like a, a, a major, you know, act of God

920
00:45:01,245 --> 00:45:02,685
or something that happens with a

921
00:45:02,785 --> 00:45:05,405
or a fire on a property that has its own separate section.

922
00:45:05,675 --> 00:45:08,245
Okay. I'm talking about the abandoned uses

923
00:45:08,545 --> 00:45:11,005
and then the ability for someone to come back in with a use

924
00:45:11,005 --> 00:45:14,205
that we didn't want in the zone within 12

925
00:45:14,205 --> 00:45:15,205
Months.

926
00:45:15,205 --> 00:45:16,925
I think it's, it's almost very fact specific.

927
00:45:17,125 --> 00:45:18,885
'cause if, if there's a fire, there's probably one set

928
00:45:18,885 --> 00:45:21,365
of conditions if there's a retirement

929
00:45:21,385 --> 00:45:23,405
and it's actively on the market with a,

930
00:45:23,405 --> 00:45:25,045
with a commercial real estate agent

931
00:45:25,185 --> 00:45:26,645
to sell the business, that's another one.

932
00:45:27,265 --> 00:45:29,245
If the owner has died

933
00:45:29,245 --> 00:45:31,445
and none of the heirs are interested in the business,

934
00:45:31,445 --> 00:45:34,005
then it's more of an abandonment. So I think it's,

935
00:45:34,305 --> 00:45:35,805
Or if they died and it's in probate

936
00:45:35,805 --> 00:45:36,805
and it gets hung up in probate.

937
00:45:36,835 --> 00:45:39,925
Yeah. I think it's very fa fact specific as to,

938
00:45:40,465 --> 00:45:42,205
you know, what would be fair.

939
00:45:43,185 --> 00:45:45,205
All right. We'll look at it. But okay.

940
00:45:46,905 --> 00:45:48,565
We, we've talked off

941
00:45:48,565 --> 00:45:50,925
and on about adding tiny home ordinances

942
00:45:53,065 --> 00:45:55,205
and I'm just gonna kind of,

943
00:45:55,405 --> 00:45:57,245
'cause I don't wanna take up the whole night on

944
00:45:57,545 --> 00:45:58,725
for this. Yeah, go

945
00:45:58,725 --> 00:45:59,725
Ahead.

946
00:45:59,725 --> 00:46:02,725
I have a suggestion if I could, Liz,

947
00:46:02,825 --> 00:46:05,365
can you find out who's doing tiny houses right now?

948
00:46:05,595 --> 00:46:06,725
What towns are doing it?

949
00:46:06,745 --> 00:46:09,565
And maybe we do a, a field, a small field trip

950
00:46:09,565 --> 00:46:11,485
and take a look and see what's being done.

951
00:46:16,395 --> 00:46:17,895
We can do that. Okay.

952
00:46:18,715 --> 00:46:20,135
But not in the winter. I don't wanna do it though.

953
00:46:22,155 --> 00:46:24,335
The weather has to be nice before we take the field trip.

954
00:46:24,755 --> 00:46:26,135
All right. No, no winter trips.

955
00:46:26,445 --> 00:46:28,055
Okay. So no December 12th.

956
00:46:28,315 --> 00:46:30,015
Yes. I don't know if I heard to Dover's doing something

957
00:46:30,015 --> 00:46:31,535
or we're gonna go to Berlin or I,

958
00:46:31,615 --> 00:46:32,695
I don't know. There was some times,

959
00:46:32,695 --> 00:46:34,255
Yeah, Dover had a a,

960
00:46:34,515 --> 00:46:36,095
the cottages that we did hear about, right?

961
00:46:36,115 --> 00:46:37,655
Yes. So it would be nice to actually take a li

962
00:46:37,655 --> 00:46:38,775
like a field trip to see him.

963
00:46:39,275 --> 00:46:42,695
So yeah. So yeah, they, that's the cottage court design,

964
00:46:42,745 --> 00:46:46,015
which is, you know, honestly that's something I would,

965
00:46:46,895 --> 00:46:49,375
I would really like the, the board to consider.

966
00:46:49,775 --> 00:46:51,095
I think set us up. I think there's, there's merit.

967
00:46:51,165 --> 00:46:52,375
There's merit in that

968
00:46:53,835 --> 00:46:54,855
We still have the town bus. As

969
00:46:54,855 --> 00:46:55,615
Long as we don't call it cluster

970
00:46:55,615 --> 00:46:56,695
development, it's probably Okay.

971
00:46:57,525 --> 00:46:58,525
Yeah,

972
00:46:59,205 --> 00:47:00,205
Very true.

973
00:47:00,475 --> 00:47:02,455
And actually Dartmouth is doing it right now

974
00:47:02,635 --> 00:47:04,255
for their employees. Yeah.

975
00:47:04,405 --> 00:47:07,415
They saw that This started out for the benefit

976
00:47:07,435 --> 00:47:09,855
of employees and I think then it grew some legs

977
00:47:09,955 --> 00:47:11,015
and expanded Yeah.

978
00:47:12,125 --> 00:47:13,815
Also for veterans. Yes.

979
00:47:13,815 --> 00:47:15,495
They're doing it for veterans too. Yes.

980
00:47:16,095 --> 00:47:19,175
I visited the tiny homes for the veterans. Yeah.

981
00:47:19,335 --> 00:47:21,335
I was in Kansas as a state rep

982
00:47:21,875 --> 00:47:24,255
and it's, it's growing on leaps and bounds.

983
00:47:24,325 --> 00:47:27,945
Nice. We can look at some other places that are doing it.

984
00:47:27,945 --> 00:47:28,945
Right.

985
00:47:29,915 --> 00:47:32,885
Okay. And then, so

986
00:47:33,505 --> 00:47:35,965
Carrie Owen had asked me to look at requirements

987
00:47:35,985 --> 00:47:38,405
for travel trailers and temporary storage.

988
00:47:39,865 --> 00:47:42,085
So what's, what's your definition of travel trailer?

989
00:47:43,305 --> 00:47:46,765
So I don't have the zoning ordinance in front of me,

990
00:47:46,765 --> 00:47:48,725
but I think we do have a, a definition

991
00:47:48,825 --> 00:47:50,125
and it's like the length of state

992
00:47:50,125 --> 00:47:51,405
that they're allowed to be somewhere.

993
00:47:51,405 --> 00:47:53,645
Okay. She would like us to look at that. Yeah.

994
00:47:53,835 --> 00:47:56,645
Yeah. Without naming any names. I think there was,

995
00:47:58,385 --> 00:48:02,725
It, It's there was an area where people would

996
00:48:03,675 --> 00:48:05,965
park their recreation vehicles

997
00:48:06,425 --> 00:48:08,885
and stay for a long time

998
00:48:09,065 --> 00:48:12,525
and then they're not being properly taxed.

999
00:48:12,525 --> 00:48:16,085
They're being lived in, but they're being it's treated more

1000
00:48:16,085 --> 00:48:17,605
as a vehicle. Right.

1001
00:48:17,665 --> 00:48:19,045
Was it, would that be a campground?

1002
00:48:19,445 --> 00:48:21,365
I I'm not gonna get into any names or anything,

1003
00:48:21,365 --> 00:48:23,685
but I'm just saying, I mean is that what she's looking

1004
00:48:23,685 --> 00:48:24,685
At?

1005
00:48:24,685 --> 00:48:26,245
Well, there's no that, that's like the recreational use,

1006
00:48:26,245 --> 00:48:29,845
but like there, there are the travel trailers and,

1007
00:48:29,905 --> 00:48:33,525
and that is, that is an issue sometimes that we're,

1008
00:48:33,885 --> 00:48:36,405
I know in other towns they have ordinances

1009
00:48:36,405 --> 00:48:39,885
where you can have a tra travel trailer on the property,

1010
00:48:39,885 --> 00:48:41,805
someone living in it x amount of days

1011
00:48:41,805 --> 00:48:43,845
and then that it has to go away.

1012
00:48:45,265 --> 00:48:47,125
And then with regard to the,

1013
00:48:47,265 --> 00:48:49,685
the temporary storage in those trailers

1014
00:48:49,685 --> 00:48:53,365
that are being stored on people's, in people's yards.

1015
00:48:53,675 --> 00:48:56,925
I've seen, I've seen them How long those can stay.

1016
00:48:56,955 --> 00:48:59,525
Yeah. I remember when I worked in Auburn, we had,

1017
00:48:59,585 --> 00:49:01,165
we discussed both of those things

1018
00:49:01,385 --> 00:49:03,965
and they put provisions in the zoning ordinance

1019
00:49:03,965 --> 00:49:05,605
because people had these,

1020
00:49:05,655 --> 00:49:08,085
those drop off big trailer containers.

1021
00:49:08,085 --> 00:49:09,405
Containers, yeah. They look like, yeah.

1022
00:49:09,405 --> 00:49:11,325
And they would just, they did trucking containers. Yes.

1023
00:49:11,545 --> 00:49:13,805
So it looks like there's a, a truck sitting in the yard,

1024
00:49:13,865 --> 00:49:15,965
but it's no wheels or anything, so.

1025
00:49:15,975 --> 00:49:19,045
Right. She would like us to look at that. Yeah.

1026
00:49:19,305 --> 00:49:21,925
And, and she can, you know, we, I can work with her

1027
00:49:21,925 --> 00:49:23,365
and maybe draft some language

1028
00:49:23,365 --> 00:49:24,885
and bring it to the board for review.

1029
00:49:25,195 --> 00:49:28,085
Okay. But I just wanted to get that on your radar. Yep.

1030
00:49:29,265 --> 00:49:30,925
So this is, this one's a fun one.

1031
00:49:31,425 --> 00:49:32,485
We talk about town

1032
00:49:32,625 --> 00:49:35,005
and we never say we mean the town of Derry.

1033
00:49:35,265 --> 00:49:39,485
So when we talk about a, for example, a town road,

1034
00:49:41,955 --> 00:49:45,525
your, your lot has to front on a town approved road.

1035
00:49:45,675 --> 00:49:49,925
Well which town's approved road? Is it ours, is it?

1036
00:49:49,925 --> 00:49:50,925
Alright, so I I I

1037
00:49:51,315 --> 00:49:52,925
Well that's what definition, what common sense kind

1038
00:49:52,925 --> 00:49:54,205
of comes in the definition.

1039
00:49:54,205 --> 00:49:56,205
Correct. Correct. But we've been, we've been,

1040
00:49:56,755 --> 00:49:59,525
it's been pointed out to us that it is not clear.

1041
00:50:00,105 --> 00:50:04,005
So the definition of town is clear in state statute

1042
00:50:04,435 --> 00:50:06,885
that governs municipal forms of government.

1043
00:50:06,885 --> 00:50:11,005
Right. So I think I know what you're referring to.

1044
00:50:11,455 --> 00:50:14,045
Where could it be an abutting

1045
00:50:14,045 --> 00:50:16,885
town approved road

1046
00:50:17,265 --> 00:50:18,265
If you Exactly.

1047
00:50:18,385 --> 00:50:23,165
So if you have, maybe you have a lot that

1048
00:50:24,305 --> 00:50:27,605
has it, it it, yeah.

1049
00:50:27,745 --> 00:50:30,565
It, it, maybe it has land in Derry,

1050
00:50:30,905 --> 00:50:34,285
but the public street is actually in an abutting town.

1051
00:50:35,425 --> 00:50:39,245
If someone comes to pull a, a permit with us, they,

1052
00:50:39,505 --> 00:50:40,765
we say you can't have a permit

1053
00:50:40,765 --> 00:50:45,365
because you don't front on a dairy class five road.

1054
00:50:47,025 --> 00:50:49,845
Oh, I hear. So do you do so we're not clear, clear.

1055
00:50:49,845 --> 00:50:52,445
We don't have jurisdiction of other town roads.

1056
00:50:52,655 --> 00:50:53,965
Right. But if it's a lot

1057
00:50:54,495 --> 00:50:58,125
where they don't wanna put a driveway on this, you know,

1058
00:50:58,125 --> 00:50:59,325
the other town's road

1059
00:50:59,345 --> 00:51:01,525
and they wanna put a driveway on the dairy port.

1060
00:51:01,525 --> 00:51:04,845
Yeah. So there, but there's it, it's, you're

1061
00:51:04,845 --> 00:51:05,805
Just cleaning it up. It's become you

1062
00:51:06,085 --> 00:51:07,085
Cleaning it up.

1063
00:51:07,085 --> 00:51:07,325
Yes. It's become an issue. And

1064
00:51:07,905 --> 00:51:08,905
It should Be for clarity.

1065
00:51:08,905 --> 00:51:10,685
I think we need to look at the underlying Yeah.

1066
00:51:10,905 --> 00:51:13,645
Reason for that restriction.

1067
00:51:13,645 --> 00:51:16,605
And I suspect it has to do with the provision of,

1068
00:51:16,785 --> 00:51:19,965
of reasonable access for visitors and,

1069
00:51:20,025 --> 00:51:22,165
and the people who live there and, and fire

1070
00:51:22,545 --> 00:51:24,565
and other emergency services.

1071
00:51:27,305 --> 00:51:30,645
So I think we ought to be careful that if you have a, a lot

1072
00:51:30,705 --> 00:51:34,405
that's subdivided between two abutting towns

1073
00:51:35,705 --> 00:51:38,525
and you've got a road that is maintained by each

1074
00:51:38,545 --> 00:51:41,965
of the two abutting towns to the scene standard

1075
00:51:43,065 --> 00:51:47,085
and the driveway happens to be in the other town, could you

1076
00:51:47,315 --> 00:51:48,805
with a straight face say, well

1077
00:51:49,395 --> 00:51:51,365
that road in the abutting town is bad

1078
00:51:51,515 --> 00:51:55,925
because it's not owned by us, it won't serve the same,

1079
00:51:56,785 --> 00:52:00,125
the attic access requirements for life safety.

1080
00:52:00,605 --> 00:52:01,965
I, I think that'd be a hard argument

1081
00:52:01,965 --> 00:52:02,965
To make.

1082
00:52:02,965 --> 00:52:03,445
Oh, you, you can't straight face that.

1083
00:52:03,445 --> 00:52:06,085
But when you're talking about the way our language is

1084
00:52:06,085 --> 00:52:09,845
with regard to frontage, if we,

1085
00:52:10,345 --> 00:52:14,125
if we wanna be clear that it's frontage on a town of Derry

1086
00:52:15,295 --> 00:52:18,565
Class five road, it should, we should define town

1087
00:52:18,905 --> 00:52:20,445
as in our ordinance.

1088
00:52:20,505 --> 00:52:21,645
We mean town of dairy.

1089
00:52:22,155 --> 00:52:25,965
Yeah. I I I think generally that's true in that case.

1090
00:52:28,335 --> 00:52:29,985
We'd have to look at the details, but, but yeah.

1091
00:52:30,095 --> 00:52:32,625
Requiring the frontage to,

1092
00:52:32,765 --> 00:52:35,545
or the driveway to be on the dairy section of the road

1093
00:52:35,545 --> 00:52:37,945
before hits the town line to the other

1094
00:52:38,625 --> 00:52:39,825
section. That seems a little

1095
00:52:40,175 --> 00:52:42,025
Yeah, there's, there's more.

1096
00:52:42,245 --> 00:52:45,505
But I, it's just, it it, for tonight's purposes,

1097
00:52:45,625 --> 00:52:48,225
I just wanna point out that we say town

1098
00:52:48,725 --> 00:52:51,385
and we don't say Derry, we mean town of Derry. Yeah,

1099
00:52:51,385 --> 00:52:52,625
That's, that's fine. Yeah.

1100
00:52:52,625 --> 00:52:53,665
That's all. And I

1101
00:52:54,005 --> 00:52:56,585
Is there Oh, you've, I was gonna ask

1102
00:52:56,805 --> 00:53:00,745
for one other thing if possible where we are,

1103
00:53:01,685 --> 00:53:04,955
I'm seeing a lot of dumpsters

1104
00:53:06,015 --> 00:53:09,035
in like high visibility areas that are not screened

1105
00:53:09,645 --> 00:53:11,555
where they could be placed in, in a,

1106
00:53:12,515 --> 00:53:13,555
a spot that's different.

1107
00:53:13,555 --> 00:53:17,875
That's like not on the street type thing. So

1108
00:53:17,895 --> 00:53:19,835
Are we talking about commercial or residential?

1109
00:53:20,675 --> 00:53:21,875
I, I think I've seen it in

1110
00:53:21,875 --> 00:53:22,995
both, believe it or not. So Yeah,

1111
00:53:23,115 --> 00:53:25,565
I mean the, the, the problem is as far as I know,

1112
00:53:26,335 --> 00:53:29,805
state law gives the planning board very little ability

1113
00:53:29,865 --> 00:53:33,605
to regulate stuff on residential land

1114
00:53:33,635 --> 00:53:35,965
because we don't do a site plan. Okay.

1115
00:53:36,385 --> 00:53:37,405
That's fine. But, but

1116
00:53:37,405 --> 00:53:41,205
So we could perhaps have a, a nuisance ordinance,

1117
00:53:41,945 --> 00:53:43,765
but I don't even know if that would be a planning

1118
00:53:43,765 --> 00:53:44,885
board thing or, or it would be a

1119
00:53:45,025 --> 00:53:46,485
No, I wouldn't wanna do nuisance.

1120
00:53:46,665 --> 00:53:50,325
I'm just, I've seen some businesses that have the locations

1121
00:53:50,325 --> 00:53:53,725
of the dumpsters are like right there in Plainview.

1122
00:53:53,745 --> 00:53:55,045
It just doesn't, they're 10. It

1123
00:53:55,045 --> 00:53:56,445
Doesn't look like they're 10 feet from the travel

1124
00:53:56,505 --> 00:53:57,765
way. Yeah. It, it,

1125
00:53:57,985 --> 00:53:59,325
It underst they screen it.

1126
00:53:59,325 --> 00:54:01,045
That's fine. If if there's no other place for it

1127
00:54:01,045 --> 00:54:04,605
and you screen it, then we don't see it.

1128
00:54:04,625 --> 00:54:06,005
But you're driving down these

1129
00:54:06,735 --> 00:54:08,445
Understood. Yeah. So

1130
00:54:08,455 --> 00:54:09,885
Guess and they're like right there. If

1131
00:54:09,885 --> 00:54:10,965
You wanna, if you wanna take care

1132
00:54:10,965 --> 00:54:13,125
of the existing conditions, you better make that a,

1133
00:54:13,965 --> 00:54:16,125
a health safety code or police. It's a Yeah.

1134
00:54:16,515 --> 00:54:17,645
Code. Yeah. Their code

1135
00:54:17,645 --> 00:54:18,645
Issues authority code.

1136
00:54:18,645 --> 00:54:19,765
'cause I don't, because we can't go back

1137
00:54:19,785 --> 00:54:22,605
and have, you know, second guessing no existing

1138
00:54:23,215 --> 00:54:24,325
plans, but if we move

1139
00:54:24,325 --> 00:54:25,525
Forward, Right.

1140
00:54:25,675 --> 00:54:27,045
Yeah. But no,

1141
00:54:27,085 --> 00:54:29,005
I understand especially on the commercial sites

1142
00:54:29,005 --> 00:54:33,005
where things have kind of crept,

1143
00:54:33,485 --> 00:54:35,285
like the use has crept beyond

1144
00:54:35,285 --> 00:54:37,245
what was originally approved for the site.

1145
00:54:37,435 --> 00:54:40,005
Yeah. It becomes a compliance issue

1146
00:54:40,585 --> 00:54:45,085
and not that it's not on the town's radar, it's trying

1147
00:54:45,085 --> 00:54:46,605
to go move through the enforcement

1148
00:54:46,605 --> 00:54:47,925
actions committee. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

1149
00:54:48,395 --> 00:54:50,445
Hard and Can I just add one Oh go ahead.

1150
00:54:50,475 --> 00:54:51,725
Well I got one and then you can go back.

1151
00:54:51,785 --> 00:54:54,045
No, no, you go ahead. So I have one like that.

1152
00:54:54,925 --> 00:54:58,165
I think it would be wise for us for health and

1153
00:54:58,185 --> 00:55:02,125
and safety reasons to require residential

1154
00:55:03,075 --> 00:55:05,325
parcels to have driveways with turnarounds

1155
00:55:05,515 --> 00:55:07,645
because backing out into the street,

1156
00:55:07,645 --> 00:55:09,325
especially on a busy street,

1157
00:55:09,625 --> 00:55:12,685
is inherently a little bit dangerous. What do you mean

1158
00:55:12,685 --> 00:55:13,685
By a turnaround?

1159
00:55:14,745 --> 00:55:15,635
Well, you're a realtor, you must

1160
00:55:15,635 --> 00:55:17,115
know what a, a turnaround is. No, but

1161
00:55:17,135 --> 00:55:19,035
But on a private driveway, yeah.

1162
00:55:20,055 --> 00:55:21,395
I'm just like thinking of my house.

1163
00:55:21,515 --> 00:55:22,755
I have a, I have a wide driveway.

1164
00:55:22,795 --> 00:55:24,355
I don't have, I can't turn around in it.

1165
00:55:25,065 --> 00:55:26,475
Well, so I, I have a, you know, one

1166
00:55:26,475 --> 00:55:27,915
of those little peas, it's called a turnaround.

1167
00:55:28,585 --> 00:55:31,155
Yeah. So I, I never back out into the street

1168
00:55:32,575 --> 00:55:35,635
For I, I'm, so I'm always backing out into the street

1169
00:55:36,265 --> 00:55:38,235
like all the time because I just don't, yeah.

1170
00:55:38,235 --> 00:55:39,875
So I, I'm A third of an acre. I

1171
00:55:39,875 --> 00:55:40,875
Can't do it.

1172
00:55:40,875 --> 00:55:42,635
This is a daveism I think it actually would be

1173
00:55:42,635 --> 00:55:43,915
a, a safety feature

1174
00:55:43,935 --> 00:55:45,715
For That we could discuss for new driveways.

1175
00:55:45,715 --> 00:55:46,995
It may not, it may not get support

1176
00:55:47,295 --> 00:55:48,295
For new driveways.

1177
00:55:48,425 --> 00:55:49,515
Yeah, we do,

1178
00:55:50,335 --> 00:55:54,115
we do have a provision if the driveway is over 150 feet in

1179
00:55:54,115 --> 00:55:56,435
length, they must provide a turnaround.

1180
00:55:57,505 --> 00:55:59,555
Yeah. I I think it should be irrespective of length.

1181
00:55:59,755 --> 00:56:01,955
'cause backing out into a busy road we

1182
00:56:01,955 --> 00:56:03,115
Can look at That is dangerous regardless

1183
00:56:03,115 --> 00:56:04,155
of how long the driveway is.

1184
00:56:04,305 --> 00:56:06,555
Okay. But that's just one

1185
00:56:06,555 --> 00:56:08,755
of my little pet peeves. You have another one, Brian?

1186
00:56:09,615 --> 00:56:11,075
No, I'm just saying it's,

1187
00:56:11,635 --> 00:56:12,995
I thought you had another suggestion.

1188
00:56:13,135 --> 00:56:14,675
No, I'm just saying. Oh, okay. No, no.

1189
00:56:14,925 --> 00:56:18,195
Yours. No, I was just saying my suggestion in my

1190
00:56:18,195 --> 00:56:20,115
neighborhood where houses are very tight,

1191
00:56:20,865 --> 00:56:22,235
it's not practical, that's all

1192
00:56:23,115 --> 00:56:25,485
because all my neighbors are in the same situation.

1193
00:56:25,675 --> 00:56:29,405
Yeah, yeah. Unless you're stop in the street, tie up traffic

1194
00:56:29,545 --> 00:56:30,565
and back into it.

1195
00:56:30,985 --> 00:56:32,885
So when you leave you can get out that way.

1196
00:56:33,065 --> 00:56:36,845
But for instance, I have my two car garage,

1197
00:56:36,905 --> 00:56:38,925
so when I park at night, I'm pulling in.

1198
00:56:40,145 --> 00:56:42,805
But when I leave in the morning, I'm backing out.

1199
00:56:44,045 --> 00:56:45,285
I don't really have a place to turn

1200
00:56:46,075 --> 00:56:47,685
even though I have a big driveway. I

1201
00:56:47,685 --> 00:56:48,965
Mean that could, that could obviously be de

1202
00:56:49,205 --> 00:56:50,285
dependent on, on district.

1203
00:56:52,045 --> 00:56:53,725
I mean, I, I have a, a one

1204
00:56:53,725 --> 00:56:56,165
and a quarter acre lot in a three acre zone,

1205
00:56:56,165 --> 00:56:58,245
so I have no excuse not to have one. Okay.

1206
00:56:58,545 --> 00:57:00,445
We can look at it. Okay.

1207
00:57:01,465 --> 00:57:06,045
So the last like kind of zoning type thing would be a review

1208
00:57:06,045 --> 00:57:07,085
of the sign ordinance.

1209
00:57:07,095 --> 00:57:11,085
Again, things like banner signs, off-premise signs,

1210
00:57:11,135 --> 00:57:14,525
permitting of signs, like maybe take a look at that again.

1211
00:57:15,785 --> 00:57:17,685
So other things I would like

1212
00:57:17,685 --> 00:57:19,885
to maybe offer his work sessions.

1213
00:57:20,155 --> 00:57:23,325
Just when we have time, when we're not inundated with plans,

1214
00:57:24,295 --> 00:57:26,365
maybe take some time during a meeting to kind

1215
00:57:26,365 --> 00:57:28,925
of go over the escrow process with the planning board.

1216
00:57:29,125 --> 00:57:31,085
'cause not everyone is familiar with, you know,

1217
00:57:31,085 --> 00:57:32,765
what happens, you know, we get these,

1218
00:57:32,945 --> 00:57:34,645
the sheets at the beginning and you know, so

1219
00:57:35,835 --> 00:57:37,565
what is it like, what do we do with it

1220
00:57:37,745 --> 00:57:40,245
and what happens on the back end of that?

1221
00:57:41,705 --> 00:57:45,845
And I also would like permission to start adding

1222
00:57:47,185 --> 00:57:49,405
to the actual suggested motion.

1223
00:57:49,835 --> 00:57:52,285
Like precedent and subsequent. Yeah.

1224
00:57:52,285 --> 00:57:55,085
So conditions precedent are all of those conditions

1225
00:57:55,085 --> 00:57:56,405
that have to be met

1226
00:57:56,625 --> 00:57:59,205
before the board can actually sign the plan.

1227
00:57:59,945 --> 00:58:03,445
So establishing escrow, getting all the waivers on the plan,

1228
00:58:04,645 --> 00:58:07,165
certifying the bounds are set, like those types of things.

1229
00:58:07,655 --> 00:58:10,605
There are conditions that are subsequent, such as subject

1230
00:58:10,625 --> 00:58:15,405
to inspection by the towns engineer recording

1231
00:58:15,545 --> 00:58:18,565
of deeds and give us a copy of that.

1232
00:58:18,945 --> 00:58:22,165
Or sometimes it's there.

1233
00:58:22,165 --> 00:58:24,445
There's, there's other things that can happen

1234
00:58:24,615 --> 00:58:27,405
after you approve the plan, but we still need you to do it.

1235
00:58:27,885 --> 00:58:29,205
So make sure you erect the fence.

1236
00:58:29,205 --> 00:58:30,725
Like when you're under construction,

1237
00:58:30,945 --> 00:58:32,845
we said we want a fence here.

1238
00:58:33,435 --> 00:58:34,605
They'll show it on the plan,

1239
00:58:34,605 --> 00:58:36,485
but we wanna make sure it actually gets done.

1240
00:58:36,545 --> 00:58:39,045
So that would be a condition, subsequent things like that.

1241
00:58:39,225 --> 00:58:41,725
So I would, I would like to be able to start doing that.

1242
00:58:42,105 --> 00:58:43,845
And then if you disagree with

1243
00:58:44,195 --> 00:58:46,445
what you know has been the suggestion,

1244
00:58:46,465 --> 00:58:49,525
you think it should be a before rather than an after or an

1245
00:58:49,525 --> 00:58:50,605
after rather than a before.

1246
00:58:50,785 --> 00:58:52,765
We could talk about that during deliberation.

1247
00:58:53,635 --> 00:58:56,325
Yeah. What like plant like plantings. Yeah.

1248
00:58:56,945 --> 00:58:57,965
Of avid trees

1249
00:58:57,985 --> 00:58:59,685
or whatnot, right? Yeah. Yeah. That's something

1250
00:58:59,685 --> 00:59:00,685
That, yeah.

1251
00:59:00,685 --> 00:59:03,045
Yep, exactly. Okay. We can do that.

1252
00:59:03,145 --> 00:59:07,685
And then long-term goal kind of revamp the zoning ordinance.

1253
00:59:07,905 --> 00:59:10,405
It is, it is huge and it's clunky

1254
00:59:10,465 --> 00:59:12,605
and it's not easy for the average person

1255
00:59:12,625 --> 00:59:14,925
to navigate if you don't do this for a living.

1256
00:59:16,185 --> 00:59:18,605
We made a really good start with the creation

1257
00:59:18,605 --> 00:59:20,165
of those quick reference guides

1258
00:59:20,165 --> 00:59:21,765
that Nick did for us last year.

1259
00:59:23,065 --> 00:59:25,885
You know, things like that in the zoning ordinance make it

1260
00:59:25,885 --> 00:59:28,005
easy for people to understand

1261
00:59:28,005 --> 00:59:30,125
what the requirements are in the district.

1262
00:59:31,665 --> 00:59:33,165
So we'd like to do more of that

1263
00:59:33,835 --> 00:59:35,045
Have, I know, but people are gonna

1264
00:59:35,045 --> 00:59:36,085
look at me like I'm strange.

1265
00:59:36,105 --> 00:59:38,725
But have we taken maybe pieces of the ordinance

1266
00:59:39,265 --> 00:59:41,485
and asking AI

1267
00:59:41,585 --> 00:59:44,685
for certain suggestions?

1268
00:59:45,865 --> 00:59:49,125
No. No, we have not. Okay.

1269
00:59:49,995 --> 00:59:54,085
Yeah. And then the, the other thing was just kind of

1270
00:59:54,835 --> 00:59:58,525
walk you guys through some, like the TRC process, like

1271
00:59:58,545 --> 01:00:00,725
how it starts, what we do, what we're looking for.

1272
01:00:01,445 --> 01:00:03,525
'cause so much work gets done ahead of time

1273
01:00:04,285 --> 01:00:05,565
before you see the plan

1274
01:00:05,825 --> 01:00:08,325
and you know, kind of maybe give you some examples of

1275
01:00:08,435 --> 01:00:11,565
what first comes through the door and then what you see.

1276
01:00:11,635 --> 01:00:14,725
Because a lot of times the end result is very different.

1277
01:00:15,825 --> 01:00:20,765
And then also it used to be back in the day that

1278
01:00:21,275 --> 01:00:23,085
when you got your planning board packets,

1279
01:00:23,085 --> 01:00:25,965
you would have all the TRC notes included.

1280
01:00:26,275 --> 01:00:27,725
Yeah. In the packet.

1281
01:00:31,035 --> 01:00:33,565
When I took this position, I kind of stopped doing that

1282
01:00:33,565 --> 01:00:36,085
because in the staff reports, anything

1283
01:00:36,085 --> 01:00:39,885
that hadn't been addressed at the TRC level

1284
01:00:40,225 --> 01:00:41,845
was that was included.

1285
01:00:41,985 --> 01:00:43,565
You know, I would make sure it was included

1286
01:00:43,585 --> 01:00:45,485
and noted in the staff report so

1287
01:00:45,485 --> 01:00:47,645
that you were aware this is still an ongoing concern.

1288
01:00:48,195 --> 01:00:50,085
This is an issue. You guys should talk about this.

1289
01:00:51,635 --> 01:00:52,805
What was happening.

1290
01:00:53,355 --> 01:00:57,565
What I observed was that previously with the inclusion

1291
01:00:57,585 --> 01:01:01,925
of the TRC notes in the packets, people would read them.

1292
01:01:01,985 --> 01:01:03,485
So thank you for doing that.

1293
01:01:03,865 --> 01:01:04,885
But things

1294
01:01:04,885 --> 01:01:06,725
that had already been addressed were being

1295
01:01:06,725 --> 01:01:07,925
brought up during the public hearing.

1296
01:01:07,925 --> 01:01:09,165
They weren't an issue anymore,

1297
01:01:09,185 --> 01:01:10,525
and it wasn't an efficient use

1298
01:01:10,525 --> 01:01:12,925
of the board's time and resources.

1299
01:01:13,065 --> 01:01:14,765
So I, I stopped doing that.

1300
01:01:15,465 --> 01:01:18,205
But if it's something that you really want to see

1301
01:01:18,955 --> 01:01:22,165
with your packets, you know, we can absolutely do that.

1302
01:01:22,175 --> 01:01:23,205
Again, you know,

1303
01:01:23,205 --> 01:01:25,405
I don't like making arbitrary decisions like that,

1304
01:01:25,425 --> 01:01:27,045
but there was, there was a lot of thought behind

1305
01:01:27,625 --> 01:01:29,005
why I did. Maybe

1306
01:01:29,025 --> 01:01:32,205
The TS RRC notes could go to the chair and the vice chair.

1307
01:01:32,875 --> 01:01:36,205
Okay. You know what I'm saying?

1308
01:01:36,265 --> 01:01:39,105
And then if there's something there that,

1309
01:01:39,655 --> 01:01:43,345
because I mean we all appreciate, TRC helps us get

1310
01:01:43,345 --> 01:01:44,465
to where our decision is.

1311
01:01:44,465 --> 01:01:46,265
They kind of, you know, streamlined

1312
01:01:46,265 --> 01:01:49,905
and all the questions are asked up at that point, you know,

1313
01:01:50,365 --> 01:01:51,905
all the safety questions and everything.

1314
01:01:51,925 --> 01:01:53,345
So it makes our job a lot easier.

1315
01:01:54,165 --> 01:01:55,985
But it is nice to see what they're looking at

1316
01:01:56,895 --> 01:01:57,905
town officials, you know?

1317
01:01:58,735 --> 01:02:00,585
Okay. So if you

1318
01:02:00,585 --> 01:02:02,545
Would, but maybe the chair and the vice chair should get a

1319
01:02:02,545 --> 01:02:03,825
copy just so they have 'em

1320
01:02:04,725 --> 01:02:06,505
and they can, they can peruse them and

1321
01:02:06,735 --> 01:02:07,735
Yeah.

1322
01:02:07,735 --> 01:02:09,225
And, and then it would be in our packet.

1323
01:02:09,325 --> 01:02:11,465
And if somebody had a question about, well,

1324
01:02:11,525 --> 01:02:12,785
how did that, how did that go?

1325
01:02:13,275 --> 01:02:14,625
We'll have the material here.

1326
01:02:15,885 --> 01:02:19,685
But I, I think I, I support

1327
01:02:20,665 --> 01:02:24,845
the planning director's thought that completely

1328
01:02:25,445 --> 01:02:27,205
resolved issues we don't need to re-litigate.

1329
01:02:28,785 --> 01:02:31,725
So it's probably the exceptional situation,

1330
01:02:32,695 --> 01:02:35,405
which we've only had a few times when an applicant

1331
01:02:36,785 --> 01:02:38,245
didn't agree with the TRC

1332
01:02:38,245 --> 01:02:40,725
and wanted to come to the, the board for their day in court.

1333
01:02:41,085 --> 01:02:42,445
Right. And we would Yeah.

1334
01:02:42,625 --> 01:02:44,645
And therefore we might need more background. Right.

1335
01:02:44,645 --> 01:02:46,245
And we would definitely, in a case like that,

1336
01:02:46,685 --> 01:02:48,445
absolutely make sure that you had that backup

1337
01:02:48,585 --> 01:02:50,965
so you could see what the discussion was.

1338
01:02:51,385 --> 01:02:53,645
And the TRC, although they're not as exhaustive

1339
01:02:53,705 --> 01:02:57,125
as your your minutes, Caroline does an amazing job

1340
01:02:57,145 --> 01:02:59,045
of making sure that everything's captured.

1341
01:02:59,625 --> 01:03:02,125
And in those TRC notes, we all,

1342
01:03:02,235 --> 01:03:06,085
each department provides written comments that are shared

1343
01:03:06,085 --> 01:03:07,885
with the applicant during those meetings.

1344
01:03:07,905 --> 01:03:10,565
And all of those written comments are also included in the,

1345
01:03:10,865 --> 01:03:12,045
in the TRC notes.

1346
01:03:12,045 --> 01:03:14,245
So it's a pretty exhaustive list

1347
01:03:14,245 --> 01:03:15,525
of things that they need to do.

1348
01:03:17,125 --> 01:03:18,445
I have a question for you. Yeah.

1349
01:03:18,585 --> 01:03:22,405
On the TRC notes, do they fall under 91

1350
01:03:22,485 --> 01:03:23,485
A?

1351
01:03:23,485 --> 01:03:27,045
They do not. TRC is a meeting of TRC is a meeting

1352
01:03:27,065 --> 01:03:29,285
of staff, and the purpose of TRC is

1353
01:03:29,285 --> 01:03:33,445
to help the developer understand the regulations

1354
01:03:33,545 --> 01:03:36,445
and help them navigate some of the hurdles

1355
01:03:36,445 --> 01:03:39,405
that they might encounter with the regulations. But if

1356
01:03:39,405 --> 01:03:40,605
We were to give them to the chair

1357
01:03:40,605 --> 01:03:42,245
and the vice chair, would they then become,

1358
01:03:43,265 --> 01:03:46,125
If they are included in your planning board packets,

1359
01:03:46,125 --> 01:03:47,125
they're subject to Right.

1360
01:03:47,125 --> 01:03:48,405
To know, because that is a a

1361
01:03:48,765 --> 01:03:50,645
Majority or just the two? If we just do the

1362
01:03:50,645 --> 01:03:51,645
Two Yeah.

1363
01:03:51,645 --> 01:03:52,605
No, we can't send 'em to the whole,

1364
01:03:52,905 --> 01:03:54,005
we wouldn't send 'em to the whole board. Yeah,

1365
01:03:54,005 --> 01:03:55,005
No.

1366
01:03:55,005 --> 01:03:56,045
If we send it to two, then it's still covered. Right.

1367
01:03:56,155 --> 01:03:58,365
It's not, it's not disclosed by 91

1368
01:03:58,365 --> 01:03:59,365
A.

1369
01:03:59,365 --> 01:04:02,285
Yeah. Yeah. But, but I wanna be clear, TRC is, it's a staff,

1370
01:04:02,555 --> 01:04:04,805
it's not a meeting. Yeah. It's not a

1371
01:04:04,805 --> 01:04:06,805
Meeting of A public body that's it's staff meeting.

1372
01:04:07,105 --> 01:04:08,285
So it's not subject that way.

1373
01:04:08,395 --> 01:04:12,605
It's fine, as long as the TRC is helping Yes.

1374
01:04:13,385 --> 01:04:15,285
The applicant prepare their application

1375
01:04:15,845 --> 01:04:18,525
and figure out all the things they need to comply with.

1376
01:04:18,555 --> 01:04:22,165
Exactly. Yep. It is my understanding

1377
01:04:22,235 --> 01:04:25,765
that maybe in the past the TRC has said, well,

1378
01:04:26,705 --> 01:04:28,525
if you don't give me this that I want,

1379
01:04:29,065 --> 01:04:30,125
I'm not gonna sign the plan.

1380
01:04:30,225 --> 01:04:32,725
You can't go to the board. Oh. And that's a decision.

1381
01:04:33,105 --> 01:04:35,565
No, that, yeah. And if it decisions are being made in

1382
01:04:35,565 --> 01:04:38,445
the committee, then I think it's 91 a subject. Yeah, yeah,

1383
01:04:38,595 --> 01:04:39,595
Yeah.

1384
01:04:39,665 --> 01:04:41,445
B'S got a question. Yes.

1385
01:04:42,675 --> 01:04:47,495
Yeah. The only thing

1386
01:04:47,735 --> 01:04:50,615
I would question about all of this is a lot

1387
01:04:50,615 --> 01:04:52,575
of times people are coming to TRC

1388
01:04:52,635 --> 01:04:56,535
before they've finished their negotiations and their deals.

1389
01:04:57,315 --> 01:05:00,775
And so a lot of times those things should never be known

1390
01:05:00,965 --> 01:05:02,775
outside of that TRC group.

1391
01:05:03,075 --> 01:05:06,895
So if there's some way to maybe, I don't know, protect,

1392
01:05:07,005 --> 01:05:08,375
protect that stuff, I,

1393
01:05:10,055 --> 01:05:12,335
I, I guess I'd have to have an an example.

1394
01:05:12,575 --> 01:05:14,855
'cause by the time they come to the planning board

1395
01:05:14,885 --> 01:05:17,445
with an application for a public hearing, so

1396
01:05:17,805 --> 01:05:18,965
Tupelo is a good example.

1397
01:05:19,225 --> 01:05:22,805
We were working with Tupelo well before Mr.

1398
01:05:22,835 --> 01:05:24,485
Hayward closed on that property,

1399
01:05:24,865 --> 01:05:27,005
and we were navigating the site plan

1400
01:05:27,065 --> 01:05:31,445
and he wanted that kept confidential before it came public.

1401
01:05:31,865 --> 01:05:34,045
We did the same thing with the grind house. So

1402
01:05:34,155 --> 01:05:36,725
This is, it seems to be that once it comes

1403
01:05:36,785 --> 01:05:38,965
to the planning, planning publication, planning public,

1404
01:05:38,965 --> 01:05:41,005
it's public is a public hearing,

1405
01:05:41,235 --> 01:05:42,925
then there is no more secret sauce.

1406
01:05:43,345 --> 01:05:47,805
No. But if the practice is that the TRC notes only come

1407
01:05:47,865 --> 01:05:51,965
to one or two board members at the time of our meeting

1408
01:05:51,965 --> 01:05:53,005
where we hold the hearing.

1409
01:05:53,515 --> 01:05:56,365
Yeah. Then it's, it's should be a,

1410
01:05:56,945 --> 01:05:59,765
it becomes somewhat in the public domain. Right. Okay.

1411
01:06:00,225 --> 01:06:02,245
So, but this one I'm just gonna caution.

1412
01:06:02,245 --> 01:06:04,245
Sometimes there's more than one TRC,

1413
01:06:04,395 --> 01:06:05,925
sometimes they have to come back.

1414
01:06:06,025 --> 01:06:08,565
So I would just say whatever we're doing with that,

1415
01:06:09,705 --> 01:06:11,365
we have one now that they're,

1416
01:06:11,365 --> 01:06:13,125
they haven't closed on their property yet.

1417
01:06:13,125 --> 01:06:15,725
They're trying to make sure they can get permitted.

1418
01:06:15,785 --> 01:06:19,405
So coming through the TRC process helps them learn that

1419
01:06:19,825 --> 01:06:22,445
and make sure that they can do everything they need to do

1420
01:06:22,445 --> 01:06:24,725
before they close on that property.

1421
01:06:25,905 --> 01:06:28,645
In this case, they don't need to come back for a second TRC,

1422
01:06:28,645 --> 01:06:33,485
but if they did and the notes had already been disseminated,

1423
01:06:33,635 --> 01:06:34,965
that could become an issue.

1424
01:06:35,595 --> 01:06:38,445
Well, my understanding is that coming to, they have to go

1425
01:06:38,445 --> 01:06:40,805
through all the TRCs before they complete,

1426
01:06:40,805 --> 01:06:42,605
before get complain scheduled to come to the board

1427
01:06:42,905 --> 01:06:44,125
and the notes would only come

1428
01:06:44,145 --> 01:06:46,485
to board members at the meeting.

1429
01:06:46,775 --> 01:06:48,285
Right. Okay. So we're not gonna get 'em in

1430
01:06:48,285 --> 01:06:49,485
advance. Right. Okay. That's

1431
01:06:49,485 --> 01:06:50,485
Fine.

1432
01:06:50,485 --> 01:06:52,685
Just wanna make sure we avoid unintended consequences.

1433
01:06:53,145 --> 01:06:56,045
We have had things in the past where, where it gets out

1434
01:06:56,045 --> 01:06:57,525
before the time,

1435
01:06:57,905 --> 01:06:58,905
So Yeah.

1436
01:06:58,905 --> 01:07:01,285
People in in town say, Dave, you're on the planning board.

1437
01:07:01,505 --> 01:07:03,445
You must know all the people that are coming.

1438
01:07:03,565 --> 01:07:06,125
I said, I'm the last one. Who knows better that

1439
01:07:06,125 --> 01:07:07,125
Way, sometimes better.

1440
01:07:07,145 --> 01:07:09,565
Me too. Yeah.

1441
01:07:09,795 --> 01:07:11,045
Well, lemme ask a question. Thank you.

1442
01:07:11,045 --> 01:07:14,085
The t on the TRC in addition to the TRC,

1443
01:07:14,305 --> 01:07:15,885
unless we define what it is.

1444
01:07:16,325 --> 01:07:18,245
I, I, I'll use Randy as an example.

1445
01:07:18,765 --> 01:07:20,925
I believe he's also on the highway department,

1446
01:07:21,465 --> 01:07:23,925
and a lot of those couple times over the years

1447
01:07:24,315 --> 01:07:25,365
have been controversial.

1448
01:07:26,285 --> 01:07:28,845
Yeah. There's some other, other committees

1449
01:07:29,265 --> 01:07:30,525
that's well publicized.

1450
01:07:30,595 --> 01:07:31,845
Correct. So I mean, once,

1451
01:07:31,845 --> 01:07:33,405
once it hits, and that's my staff, right.

1452
01:07:33,405 --> 01:07:37,205
Once it hits a public body such as conservation

1453
01:07:37,205 --> 01:07:40,365
or highway safety, I mean, you know, then, then that,

1454
01:07:40,795 --> 01:07:42,165
that project is obviously out,

1455
01:07:42,165 --> 01:07:43,965
it's out in the wild and people know about it.

1456
01:07:44,425 --> 01:07:48,485
But up until, you know, to Bev's point up in, if, if

1457
01:07:49,515 --> 01:07:52,405
they're not ready to pull the trigger publicly,

1458
01:07:52,915 --> 01:07:56,085
they may work through TRC and, and wait

1459
01:07:56,105 --> 01:07:58,725
and get through all of their closings and things,

1460
01:07:58,785 --> 01:08:00,685
and then go to conservation or highway safety

1461
01:08:00,825 --> 01:08:02,205
and then come to planning board.

1462
01:08:02,205 --> 01:08:05,885
Yeah. So I, I would be happy with if,

1463
01:08:06,065 --> 01:08:07,525
if, you know, Mr.

1464
01:08:07,805 --> 01:08:10,765
Connor and I had a folder with TRC notes in it, if we needed

1465
01:08:10,765 --> 01:08:13,845
to refer to it, that we didn't get it in the electronic

1466
01:08:13,845 --> 01:08:16,525
package, we just get it handed to us the night of

1467
01:08:16,925 --> 01:08:18,205
and if we need to refer to it.

1468
01:08:18,205 --> 01:08:22,005
Yeah. So there's no pre notice right before the,

1469
01:08:22,005 --> 01:08:23,045
before the public hearing.

1470
01:08:23,525 --> 01:08:26,445
Yeah. And our TRC stuff all goes into the planning board

1471
01:08:26,445 --> 01:08:30,605
packet once the, once the planning board application

1472
01:08:31,745 --> 01:08:34,245
is filed, so then it all becomes public.

1473
01:08:34,385 --> 01:08:36,405
And we always have that with us at the meetings.

1474
01:08:36,745 --> 01:08:40,005
So I think we're on this, I think

1475
01:08:41,425 --> 01:08:43,205
Bev had a couple of requests.

1476
01:08:44,885 --> 01:08:46,305
Oh yes. If you wanted to entertain that.

1477
01:08:46,745 --> 01:08:50,385
Sure. Please come. Give us your suggestions.

1478
01:08:55,165 --> 01:08:56,465
And thank you for all this input.

1479
01:08:56,495 --> 01:08:58,665
This is super helpful. Helps me.

1480
01:08:59,415 --> 01:09:01,825
Yeah, nothing too specific.

1481
01:09:02,025 --> 01:09:03,385
I mean, we've talked, Liz

1482
01:09:03,385 --> 01:09:06,105
and I, we've talked over the years about maybe expanding

1483
01:09:06,105 --> 01:09:08,625
some of the uses in GC two.

1484
01:09:11,395 --> 01:09:14,065
We've had several properties that have been for sale for

1485
01:09:14,735 --> 01:09:15,985
15 years or more.

1486
01:09:16,525 --> 01:09:19,865
The, the uses just aren't matching what

1487
01:09:21,005 --> 01:09:24,465
the investing public would care to do there.

1488
01:09:25,525 --> 01:09:29,785
And I don't want to get into specific uses right now,

1489
01:09:29,885 --> 01:09:32,305
but I think, you know, Dave, you and I talked about right

1490
01:09:32,305 --> 01:09:34,585
before this meeting of maybe looking at some

1491
01:09:34,585 --> 01:09:36,065
of the zoning in totality

1492
01:09:36,765 --> 01:09:41,585
and looking at ways we can get rid of some of the uses

1493
01:09:41,585 --> 01:09:43,025
that are no longer viable

1494
01:09:44,325 --> 01:09:46,905
or Yes,

1495
01:09:47,775 --> 01:09:48,775
Milliners.

1496
01:09:48,775 --> 01:09:49,535
Exactly.

1497
01:09:50,425 --> 01:09:52,385
There are some things in here that are pretty much,

1498
01:09:52,885 --> 01:09:54,505
you know, obsolete at this point.

1499
01:09:54,505 --> 01:09:57,305
Like TV broadcasting stations,

1500
01:09:57,315 --> 01:09:58,665
we're probably not gonna see that.

1501
01:09:59,685 --> 01:10:03,185
But then there are other things that are very sought

1502
01:10:03,185 --> 01:10:05,545
after that we don't have, have, we can't accommodate

1503
01:10:05,785 --> 01:10:08,065
'cause we don't have those properties in town.

1504
01:10:08,085 --> 01:10:11,305
And to Brian's point earlier, we really do wanna expand

1505
01:10:11,305 --> 01:10:12,585
that commercial tax base.

1506
01:10:12,725 --> 01:10:15,425
So, so I just, you know, we don't,

1507
01:10:15,525 --> 01:10:17,065
not anything specific today,

1508
01:10:17,085 --> 01:10:20,225
but maybe just review some of those zones.

1509
01:10:20,565 --> 01:10:24,025
So my thought is that we kind of did that with the

1510
01:10:25,455 --> 01:10:27,265
gateway rezoning, right?

1511
01:10:27,565 --> 01:10:28,705
We looked at all the uses.

1512
01:10:28,705 --> 01:10:30,705
We said some of these are silly, some of 'em need

1513
01:10:30,705 --> 01:10:32,225
to be added, some of 'em need to be expanded.

1514
01:10:32,765 --> 01:10:36,425
And I think we improved on the commercial viability

1515
01:10:36,605 --> 01:10:37,825
of that district.

1516
01:10:38,565 --> 01:10:40,105
And so if we, you know, want to in turn

1517
01:10:40,675 --> 01:10:43,625
maybe even look at all the commercial districts in

1518
01:10:43,625 --> 01:10:47,265
that light on a rotating basis as we have time to see

1519
01:10:47,265 --> 01:10:48,705
how many, you know, hat shops

1520
01:10:48,765 --> 01:10:52,105
and other antiquated things are in there,

1521
01:10:52,205 --> 01:10:55,905
but are missing more important things.

1522
01:10:56,905 --> 01:10:58,825
I think that would be a good idea.

1523
01:10:58,945 --> 01:11:00,265
I mean, trying to, trying

1524
01:11:00,265 --> 01:11:01,945
to do it on a tight schedule might be tough,

1525
01:11:01,945 --> 01:11:04,545
especially if we have significant plans coming in

1526
01:11:04,725 --> 01:11:07,225
and everything else on this list.

1527
01:11:08,485 --> 01:11:10,465
I'm thinking we'll be lucky if we get through it in a year.

1528
01:11:10,525 --> 01:11:13,485
But yeah, I, I think that's, that's a good idea

1529
01:11:13,485 --> 01:11:15,965
because we did, we did learn something from

1530
01:11:15,965 --> 01:11:17,405
that gateway exercise.

1531
01:11:17,405 --> 01:11:21,165
Right? Yeah. Does anyone Yeah. Have any thoughts on this?

1532
01:11:21,905 --> 01:11:23,965
No. And this is talking about data centers and stuff.

1533
01:11:24,205 --> 01:11:28,725
I don't know if where looking at it, I don't, but, but,

1534
01:11:28,725 --> 01:11:31,885
but also the governor's talking about small scale nuclear

1535
01:11:32,665 --> 01:11:33,765
for, for energy.

1536
01:11:33,865 --> 01:11:36,845
So Oh, these conversations are starting to come up.

1537
01:11:37,825 --> 01:11:39,125
Lot of changes coming,

1538
01:11:39,425 --> 01:11:42,365
You know, so that would affect planning Okay.

1539
01:11:42,365 --> 01:11:44,325
To some capacity zoning. Right. Okay.

1540
01:11:45,145 --> 01:11:48,845
Yep. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we, we should, I think,

1541
01:11:49,165 --> 01:11:51,325
I mean, it may be way ahead of our time here, but

1542
01:11:51,785 --> 01:11:53,765
We should try to keep ahead of the times.

1543
01:11:54,925 --> 01:11:58,725
Although I, I have to quote a very apocryphal quote

1544
01:11:58,725 --> 01:12:00,725
that apparently was from

1545
01:12:01,255 --> 01:12:04,885
Chief Justice John Roberts in the oral arguments today.

1546
01:12:05,345 --> 01:12:08,845
And his, his quote was, yes, it's a whole new world,

1547
01:12:09,025 --> 01:12:10,325
but it's the same constitution.

1548
01:12:11,465 --> 01:12:16,205
Oh, I like that. I'm, I'm just saying

1549
01:12:16,205 --> 01:12:19,525
that Yeah, it's good to, to keep up

1550
01:12:19,525 --> 01:12:21,645
with the brave new world, but, you know. Gotcha. I gotcha.

1551
01:12:21,645 --> 01:12:23,405
Yeah. Yeah. The more things change, the,

1552
01:12:23,955 --> 01:12:26,725
Just, just because you brought it up, nobody has asked

1553
01:12:26,725 --> 01:12:27,965
to build a data center

1554
01:12:28,345 --> 01:12:30,885
and nobody has asked to have a detention center.

1555
01:12:30,985 --> 01:12:33,005
And I know that's out there in the internet

1556
01:12:33,945 --> 01:12:34,945
On social Media.

1557
01:12:34,945 --> 01:12:36,205
Well, those things are not happening. Well,

1558
01:12:36,205 --> 01:12:37,965
That happened in Merrimack and it came all of a sudden

1559
01:12:38,145 --> 01:12:39,525
and everybody got all tied up.

1560
01:12:39,835 --> 01:12:41,325
It's not even been discussed here. And

1561
01:12:41,325 --> 01:12:43,005
The problem is the detention center is the governmental

1562
01:12:43,005 --> 01:12:44,685
use, so we don't actually get to regulate that.

1563
01:12:44,735 --> 01:12:47,725
Right. Because of this wonderful concept called sovereign

1564
01:12:47,845 --> 01:12:49,405
immunity, so. Right.

1565
01:12:50,155 --> 01:12:52,445
Okay. Lucky for us. No one's asking. Okay.

1566
01:12:52,515 --> 01:12:53,925
Okay. All right. Thank you. Thank you.

1567
01:12:53,935 --> 01:12:58,885
Rockingham 50 a day. Okay. So is that the,

1568
01:12:59,075 --> 01:13:01,285
That was, that was my very exhaustive list all. So

1569
01:13:01,555 --> 01:13:02,555
This is great.

1570
01:13:02,555 --> 01:13:05,085
We have some ideas. I think maybe the next step is

1571
01:13:05,085 --> 01:13:06,765
to actually try to prioritize them.

1572
01:13:06,985 --> 01:13:11,925
Yep. Given that we don't have infinite time, but yeah. Okay.

1573
01:13:11,955 --> 01:13:13,365
That was very helpful. Alright.

1574
01:13:13,365 --> 01:13:15,485
Thank you. Thank you for indulging me.

1575
01:13:16,035 --> 01:13:19,645
Alright, what's next? More

1576
01:13:19,845 --> 01:13:20,885
Workshops? No, we have another workshop.

1577
01:13:21,225 --> 01:13:23,765
Yes you do. No adjournment for you, Brian.

1578
01:13:28,805 --> 01:13:31,765
I dunno. Alright, so

1579
01:13:32,395 --> 01:13:34,765
this is the fourth workshop on the,

1580
01:13:36,545 --> 01:13:37,965
the CBD revision.

1581
01:13:38,705 --> 01:13:42,525
We did a, a district walk

1582
01:13:44,145 --> 01:13:47,845
and we had I think the third workshop we discussed in

1583
01:13:47,845 --> 01:13:50,645
general how we would address some

1584
01:13:50,645 --> 01:13:51,805
of the issues that came up.

1585
01:13:51,805 --> 01:13:53,365
And then three of us got homework

1586
01:13:54,515 --> 01:13:56,005
that we eventually submitted

1587
01:13:56,265 --> 01:14:00,005
and I believe that's in the package tonight.

1588
01:14:00,165 --> 01:14:03,045
So I think maybe what we ought to do is review everyone's

1589
01:14:03,925 --> 01:14:06,845
contributions and see which ones stick to the wall,

1590
01:14:06,845 --> 01:14:09,405
which ones don't, what we think about that. Is that a good,

1591
01:14:10,045 --> 01:14:11,045
I think that's perfect.

1592
01:14:11,155 --> 01:14:14,085
Okay. So how do we wanna,

1593
01:14:15,665 --> 01:14:17,805
you wanna just do it section by section or

1594
01:14:18,385 --> 01:14:19,385
We, yeah, we could.

1595
01:14:24,285 --> 01:14:27,225
So I think, so Mr. Nelson, I think you are,

1596
01:14:27,255 --> 01:14:31,305
well you added some stuff to the purpose, but then Mr.

1597
01:14:31,455 --> 01:14:34,905
Fishman's section came next. Alright,

1598
01:14:34,905 --> 01:14:37,905
So this is on page one of our handout

1599
01:14:38,445 --> 01:14:41,105
in section 1 65 33.

1600
01:14:41,605 --> 01:14:45,105
And I propose that in the middle

1601
01:14:45,105 --> 01:14:48,545
of the purpose paragraph we add in order

1602
01:14:48,605 --> 01:14:50,545
to protect the predominant character

1603
01:14:50,565 --> 01:14:52,745
and historical nature of this district,

1604
01:14:53,135 --> 01:14:55,345
dimensional requirements shall be established

1605
01:14:55,345 --> 01:14:58,105
to encourage a consistent street scape.

1606
01:14:58,945 --> 01:15:00,345
Because I think that was a goal

1607
01:15:02,175 --> 01:15:04,185
last time the district provisions were written,

1608
01:15:04,565 --> 01:15:06,945
but it was never articulated as a purpose.

1609
01:15:07,165 --> 01:15:08,905
And people only say, well, why are you doing that?

1610
01:15:09,985 --> 01:15:11,545
I think it's always, these things are not,

1611
01:15:12,285 --> 01:15:13,785
the purpose sections are not in

1612
01:15:13,785 --> 01:15:15,305
and of themselves legally enforceable,

1613
01:15:15,525 --> 01:15:17,065
but it gives guidance to people as

1614
01:15:17,065 --> 01:15:18,465
to interpreting the rest of it.

1615
01:15:18,535 --> 01:15:20,065
What it, why is it there, what does it mean?

1616
01:15:20,065 --> 01:15:24,425
Yeah. And not having a purpose statement is not good

1617
01:15:24,985 --> 01:15:28,665
that there have been towns, there's case law for towns

1618
01:15:28,665 --> 01:15:31,385
who don't have purpose statements with their districts

1619
01:15:31,525 --> 01:15:34,105
and it has not ended well. So it's good to have it.

1620
01:15:34,535 --> 01:15:38,425
Yeah. I, I think my recollection how this evolved and,

1621
01:15:38,425 --> 01:15:39,465
and again, I was away for a while,

1622
01:15:39,465 --> 01:15:43,185
but we had originally just the central business district

1623
01:15:43,205 --> 01:15:45,705
and then we did the traditional business overlay district,

1624
01:15:45,705 --> 01:15:47,545
which was our quin

1625
01:15:48,705 --> 01:15:50,905
quintessential old New England town.

1626
01:15:51,765 --> 01:15:55,185
And then that was the, the core of, of quaintness and,

1627
01:15:55,245 --> 01:15:56,265
and you know,

1628
01:15:56,265 --> 01:15:58,225
pedestrian friendliness and shopping and whatnot.

1629
01:15:58,225 --> 01:16:02,905
And then the central business was the next ring out

1630
01:16:03,215 --> 01:16:07,785
that was slightly less quaint, slightly less protected,

1631
01:16:08,085 --> 01:16:10,345
but still was part of our core downtown.

1632
01:16:10,345 --> 01:16:14,345
That was kind of what I recall about the, the process. Yep.

1633
01:16:15,495 --> 01:16:20,025
Okay. So does anyone have any

1634
01:16:21,425 --> 01:16:24,505
comments, any suggestions on, on that

1635
01:16:25,205 --> 01:16:26,665
one sentence added to the purpose?

1636
01:16:28,615 --> 01:16:30,745
Okay, so where's the next red

1637
01:16:30,765 --> 01:16:34,625
ink? So

1638
01:16:34,625 --> 01:16:39,065
Under, under multifamily, same page B five A.

1639
01:16:39,845 --> 01:16:41,305
So whose homework was that?

1640
01:16:41,815 --> 01:16:44,705
That would be, I added the and conversions. Okay.

1641
01:16:44,945 --> 01:16:47,505
'cause and then the density is Mr. Fishman.

1642
01:16:47,855 --> 01:16:51,905
Okay. I think my, my research showed that

1643
01:16:52,715 --> 01:16:55,665
we're already pretty prohibitive, restrictive in terms

1644
01:16:55,665 --> 01:17:00,465
of density and there's strong

1645
01:17:00,465 --> 01:17:03,945
support for increased density, having

1646
01:17:04,685 --> 01:17:07,905
an outsized impact on the ability for the downtown

1647
01:17:07,925 --> 01:17:09,725
to develop more commercially,

1648
01:17:10,735 --> 01:17:13,085
which will increase the tax revenue for the town.

1649
01:17:14,845 --> 01:17:17,645
I looked at other factors like impact on crime traffic

1650
01:17:18,145 --> 01:17:21,805
and all the research really indicated that it's,

1651
01:17:22,305 --> 01:17:24,205
the concerns are, are overblown

1652
01:17:24,385 --> 01:17:28,365
and that traffic is not gonna be affected.

1653
01:17:28,465 --> 01:17:32,485
Impact on the schools is probably not an issue.

1654
01:17:32,945 --> 01:17:34,645
So a lot, a lot of the items, I mean I,

1655
01:17:34,725 --> 01:17:37,005
I could comprehensively or exhaustively go through this,

1656
01:17:37,065 --> 01:17:39,765
but all the issues that we discussed in the board,

1657
01:17:41,125 --> 01:17:45,165
I feel like the research shows that

1658
01:17:47,705 --> 01:17:49,005
we shouldn't really be concerned about.

1659
01:17:49,185 --> 01:17:50,685
And, and increasing the density

1660
01:17:51,325 --> 01:17:53,805
probably offers the town a lot of, a lot of opportunities

1661
01:17:53,865 --> 01:17:54,965
for economic development

1662
01:17:56,145 --> 01:17:59,605
and likely, I mean, it's, it's maybe a question of taste,

1663
01:17:59,625 --> 01:18:02,245
but I don't believe that will degrade the,

1664
01:18:03,385 --> 01:18:05,365
the feel of the area.

1665
01:18:06,025 --> 01:18:08,365
So my, my recommendation is to increase to 24

1666
01:18:09,625 --> 01:18:10,625
At least.

1667
01:18:10,625 --> 01:18:14,085
I mean certainly if we're looking for entertainment

1668
01:18:16,645 --> 01:18:20,805
destinations and discretionary spend destinations,

1669
01:18:22,465 --> 01:18:26,125
that's gonna be incentivized by a larger population

1670
01:18:26,125 --> 01:18:28,645
of people, you know, on foot

1671
01:18:28,665 --> 01:18:30,925
who can easily reach those places.

1672
01:18:31,915 --> 01:18:34,375
So if we want those businesses to be successful, we need

1673
01:18:34,375 --> 01:18:36,655
to supply them with customers. Right? Yes,

1674
01:18:36,655 --> 01:18:37,655
That's right.

1675
01:18:39,855 --> 01:18:43,455
I mean the, the fiscal impact on the town of per unit

1676
01:18:45,035 --> 01:18:48,615
is of, of multifamily units is substantial.

1677
01:18:48,785 --> 01:18:53,635
Right. And so providing

1678
01:18:53,635 --> 01:18:57,955
more opportunities for more units in one area is only going

1679
01:18:57,955 --> 01:18:59,795
to increase the ability for the town to

1680
01:19:00,445 --> 01:19:01,515
drive economic revenue.

1681
01:19:02,415 --> 01:19:05,995
I'm sorry, I'm looking for the exact reference point to

1682
01:19:05,995 --> 01:19:07,195
what you just mentioned,

1683
01:19:07,255 --> 01:19:11,425
but we, you know, we had a finding in there that the,

1684
01:19:11,525 --> 01:19:14,665
the impact on the local communities, excuse me,

1685
01:19:14,665 --> 01:19:19,345
the local commercial businesses is gonna be substantially

1686
01:19:19,345 --> 01:19:22,065
increased by, by the density

1687
01:19:22,205 --> 01:19:24,385
and our town can support it in terms of the

1688
01:19:24,905 --> 01:19:29,705
infrastructural costs Doesn't seem like it will out,

1689
01:19:30,215 --> 01:19:32,025
will have a negative impact either.

1690
01:19:32,525 --> 01:19:36,505
So in terms of access to water,

1691
01:19:36,725 --> 01:19:37,945
et cetera, sewer

1692
01:19:38,335 --> 01:19:42,025
Yeah, I mean in terms of crime, it is true that most

1693
01:19:42,025 --> 01:19:43,665
of the crime in America is in the,

1694
01:19:43,665 --> 01:19:45,505
like the 10 largest urban centers.

1695
01:19:45,645 --> 01:19:48,865
But we're talking about millions of people with high rise,

1696
01:19:49,085 --> 01:19:52,785
you know, development, high, high density.

1697
01:19:53,285 --> 01:19:54,985
So I don't think we're anywhere near that.

1698
01:19:58,055 --> 01:19:59,705
Okay. Okay.

1699
01:19:59,805 --> 01:20:01,905
Anyone have any questions

1700
01:20:01,905 --> 01:20:04,225
or comments on those density changes?

1701
01:20:05,565 --> 01:20:09,925
Yes, actually, So the, the impact on the school

1702
01:20:09,925 --> 01:20:10,925
Totally makes, makes sense.

1703
01:20:10,925 --> 01:20:13,805
The, the TFR of the entire country is low.

1704
01:20:13,965 --> 01:20:15,485
I, I, I totally understand why

1705
01:20:15,485 --> 01:20:17,285
that wouldn't impact the school increasing the density.

1706
01:20:18,185 --> 01:20:19,485
You said you did research into it

1707
01:20:19,485 --> 01:20:21,245
and said it, it wouldn't impact the traffic.

1708
01:20:21,725 --> 01:20:23,525
Doubling the density doesn't impact the traffic at all.

1709
01:20:25,285 --> 01:20:26,965
That's what the founding finding said.

1710
01:20:28,145 --> 01:20:29,365
Let me pull it back up

1711
01:20:31,255 --> 01:20:33,865
Because I mean the, the traffic is not awful in that area,

1712
01:20:33,965 --> 01:20:35,825
but I I I would suspect doubling

1713
01:20:36,815 --> 01:20:38,265
density page four would at least

1714
01:20:38,265 --> 01:20:39,385
impact in some, some regards.

1715
01:20:39,605 --> 01:20:43,545
So the estimate was it would increase about two

1716
01:20:43,545 --> 01:20:46,265
to three additional car movements per hour at the peak

1717
01:20:47,195 --> 01:20:50,225
going from the current density cap

1718
01:20:52,445 --> 01:20:53,855
approximately doubling it.

1719
01:20:54,065 --> 01:20:56,175
Right. Based on the trip generation manual.

1720
01:20:56,515 --> 01:21:00,615
So I don't have enough information specifically to say

1721
01:21:00,615 --> 01:21:03,575
what two to three additional trips per hour is going

1722
01:21:03,575 --> 01:21:07,855
to look like, but it

1723
01:21:07,855 --> 01:21:08,895
will have an increase.

1724
01:21:09,045 --> 01:21:10,335
Yeah. And, and those two

1725
01:21:10,335 --> 01:21:12,935
to three additional trips are at peak peak hours

1726
01:21:12,995 --> 01:21:14,015
of traffic movement.

1727
01:21:14,015 --> 01:21:16,415
Okay. So the seven ams and the five PMs.

1728
01:21:17,515 --> 01:21:20,855
So you're just, you're just adding like two more, two more,

1729
01:21:20,915 --> 01:21:22,935
two to three more cars in that time period.

1730
01:21:22,935 --> 01:21:24,655
Yeah. That, that, that makes sense. Definitely.

1731
01:21:24,975 --> 01:21:28,215
I mean, something else that came up during this, which I,

1732
01:21:28,415 --> 01:21:29,295
I couldn't find a way to

1733
01:21:29,295 --> 01:21:30,655
substantiate so I didn't include it.

1734
01:21:30,675 --> 01:21:33,935
But, and you know, this is

1735
01:21:33,955 --> 01:21:35,655
to an earlier comment about looking into the future,

1736
01:21:35,755 --> 01:21:40,015
but modes of transportation may be changing, you know,

1737
01:21:40,015 --> 01:21:42,175
certainly things like ride shares and whatnot.

1738
01:21:42,195 --> 01:21:44,015
But if autonomous driving, you know,

1739
01:21:44,015 --> 01:21:48,455
we're having national discussions right now on AV frameworks

1740
01:21:48,595 --> 01:21:49,735
for autonomous vehicles.

1741
01:21:49,835 --> 01:21:52,495
So 10 years from now it might

1742
01:21:52,495 --> 01:21:53,615
be a totally different discussion.

1743
01:21:56,435 --> 01:21:58,205
Yeah. That, that totally answers the question.

1744
01:21:58,515 --> 01:22:00,245
That makes sense. You know, it's gonna increase it

1745
01:22:00,245 --> 01:22:01,525
but not, not substantially.

1746
01:22:01,625 --> 01:22:02,625
So.

1747
01:22:05,385 --> 01:22:10,155
Okay. So our next red ink

1748
01:22:10,295 --> 01:22:14,155
is on the, the next page where we're talking about

1749
01:22:15,305 --> 01:22:17,795
minimum size of units

1750
01:22:18,135 --> 01:22:21,795
and percentage of non-residential use.

1751
01:22:21,815 --> 01:22:22,815
Who was that?

1752
01:22:24,835 --> 01:22:28,115
I think that's also Brian for the size of the units.

1753
01:22:34,775 --> 01:22:38,555
So based upon local comparisons as well as

1754
01:22:39,675 --> 01:22:41,955
national standards, the 800 square foot

1755
01:22:41,955 --> 01:22:44,635
minimums much larger.

1756
01:22:56,095 --> 01:22:59,675
The affordability aspect I think was the most compelling

1757
01:23:00,675 --> 01:23:04,475
argument while going to a smaller unit

1758
01:23:05,115 --> 01:23:09,205
does tend to have a higher price per square foot

1759
01:23:09,545 --> 01:23:12,005
for development and rental.

1760
01:23:12,905 --> 01:23:15,005
The overall median rent

1761
01:23:17,465 --> 01:23:21,125
of an 800 square foot unit is above the median

1762
01:23:21,645 --> 01:23:24,245
affordability limit for New Hampshire.

1763
01:23:25,245 --> 01:23:29,285
The affordability ability limit being 30% of annual income.

1764
01:23:29,905 --> 01:23:34,085
So making, allowing

1765
01:23:34,185 --> 01:23:38,485
for smaller units will allow developers to serve a market

1766
01:23:38,855 --> 01:23:42,165
where income is, is limited

1767
01:23:42,465 --> 01:23:44,485
and, you know, it'll provide more people places

1768
01:23:44,665 --> 01:23:45,805
to affordably live

1769
01:23:50,665 --> 01:23:51,685
is my takeaway from

1770
01:23:52,065 --> 01:23:56,725
No, I I tend to agree that the,

1771
01:23:57,025 --> 01:24:00,165
the unmarried person, professional, younger person

1772
01:24:00,165 --> 01:24:02,645
that we kind of wanna attract into the state and,

1773
01:24:03,105 --> 01:24:07,245
and the town affordability, you hit right on it.

1774
01:24:08,235 --> 01:24:11,485
400 square feet is a studio I think works

1775
01:24:11,545 --> 01:24:14,285
for some people as a price point too.

1776
01:24:14,665 --> 01:24:16,685
At least that gets 'em outta the parents' basement,

1777
01:24:17,425 --> 01:24:20,285
you know, so I, I agree with you on all those.

1778
01:24:21,665 --> 01:24:25,165
Any other comments, questions? Are we,

1779
01:24:26,605 --> 01:24:28,205
I would say definitely put it on the line.

1780
01:24:28,525 --> 01:24:30,885
'cause a lot of the hospitals have

1781
01:24:30,885 --> 01:24:32,085
what they call travel nurses

1782
01:24:33,025 --> 01:24:35,245
and they're usually looking for a place

1783
01:24:35,305 --> 01:24:36,405
for six to eight months.

1784
01:24:36,925 --> 01:24:39,205
Hmm. And so they either follow the weather,

1785
01:24:39,235 --> 01:24:41,845
they follow the skiing or the snowboards or whatever.

1786
01:24:42,425 --> 01:24:44,925
But there's a lot of this coming in,

1787
01:24:45,085 --> 01:24:46,245
I just mentioned earlier that,

1788
01:24:46,315 --> 01:24:48,045
that Dartmouth is putting a bunch

1789
01:24:48,045 --> 01:24:49,725
of these together up in the area.

1790
01:24:50,745 --> 01:24:52,325
So I think it's something we ought to take a look at it.

1791
01:24:52,405 --> 01:24:54,165
'cause especially with Parkland being our number one

1792
01:24:54,405 --> 01:24:55,965
Employee, actually Dartmouth is doing

1793
01:24:56,085 --> 01:24:57,405
something pretty exciting.

1794
01:24:57,435 --> 01:25:00,645
They're actually building their own housing as a way

1795
01:25:00,645 --> 01:25:03,405
to bring in staff when they're understaffed.

1796
01:25:03,515 --> 01:25:05,765
Yeah. Housing's the number one reason why

1797
01:25:06,585 --> 01:25:08,805
people can't afford the, you know what I'm saying?

1798
01:25:08,905 --> 01:25:11,285
So if they build their own houses, then now they can.

1799
01:25:11,785 --> 01:25:14,325
Now Dartmouth Hospital can control the rent

1800
01:25:14,745 --> 01:25:16,205
And that's free Job care.

1801
01:25:16,205 --> 01:25:18,165
It keep low as part of the benefit package.

1802
01:25:18,345 --> 01:25:20,725
That's smart, that's smart planning on their side.

1803
01:25:21,585 --> 01:25:26,045
You know, I know there was some discussion in, in

1804
01:25:26,945 --> 01:25:30,155
like Rockingham County where you're in the middle of,

1805
01:25:30,155 --> 01:25:31,795
you're in Brentwood and you can't find nursing

1806
01:25:32,095 --> 01:25:33,755
and you can't find LNAs

1807
01:25:34,655 --> 01:25:36,315
and they have all kinds of open fields.

1808
01:25:36,415 --> 01:25:38,235
And some of the discussion was is maybe

1809
01:25:38,855 --> 01:25:40,195
that's something to look at.

1810
01:25:40,295 --> 01:25:42,235
Now I don't know if they've continued that discussion,

1811
01:25:42,235 --> 01:25:44,435
but that's been talked about as one way

1812
01:25:44,435 --> 01:25:45,835
of bringing workers in.

1813
01:25:46,735 --> 01:25:47,995
So especially younger workers,

1814
01:25:47,995 --> 01:25:51,515
because we're New, Hampshire's the second oldest

1815
01:25:52,095 --> 01:25:54,715
in the nation, so we need

1816
01:25:54,715 --> 01:25:56,715
to find replacement workers critically.

1817
01:25:58,455 --> 01:26:00,875
So I'd like to get everyone's kind of at least

1818
01:26:01,385 --> 01:26:03,565
nodding yes or no on this.

1819
01:26:03,765 --> 01:26:05,125
'cause I, I think that

1820
01:26:05,605 --> 01:26:08,205
whenever we propose increasing density, that's something

1821
01:26:08,205 --> 01:26:11,485
that attracts a lot of comments from, from the public.

1822
01:26:11,705 --> 01:26:15,005
And we may need to defend that when we get

1823
01:26:15,005 --> 01:26:16,485
to public hear hearings on this.

1824
01:26:16,505 --> 01:26:18,765
So we can kind of go down the line.

1825
01:26:18,765 --> 01:26:21,125
Is everyone comfortable with this? Or

1826
01:26:26,695 --> 01:26:27,715
I'm seeing some nods.

1827
01:26:28,305 --> 01:26:31,235
I'll, I'll say I'm strongly in favor of this.

1828
01:26:31,505 --> 01:26:34,405
Okay. Alright. Very good.

1829
01:26:35,955 --> 01:26:38,205
Alright, what's next? We have we

1830
01:26:40,205 --> 01:26:44,125
Removing the bedroom limits, Right?

1831
01:26:49,705 --> 01:26:51,425
I don't think, I don't think we need that in there

1832
01:26:51,425 --> 01:26:54,505
because think about it, you have 400 square feet,

1833
01:26:54,685 --> 01:26:56,905
you're not gonna make five bedrooms on a 400 square feet.

1834
01:26:56,905 --> 01:26:58,705
So no, it's just gonna naturally happen.

1835
01:27:00,205 --> 01:27:03,745
So, so I, I guess the, the, the next one which

1836
01:27:04,465 --> 01:27:08,985
I I think is Roman num

1837
01:27:09,125 --> 01:27:10,865
little ii is that what it is?

1838
01:27:12,265 --> 01:27:15,225
A minimum of 30% of the first floor shall be

1839
01:27:15,745 --> 01:27:17,305
a permitted non-residential use.

1840
01:27:17,305 --> 01:27:21,465
So this, this is in, in furtherance of our mixed use

1841
01:27:21,465 --> 01:27:24,585
that we've always kind of applied in, in, in the downtown.

1842
01:27:26,025 --> 01:27:27,745
I just wanna revalidate that we think

1843
01:27:27,745 --> 01:27:30,025
that in the central business district,

1844
01:27:30,235 --> 01:27:33,025
which is still has the word business district in it,

1845
01:27:33,615 --> 01:27:37,305
that a mixed use requirement is, is reasonable.

1846
01:27:40,085 --> 01:27:42,105
I'm seeing some nods. Yeah. Okay.

1847
01:27:42,925 --> 01:27:45,105
So my only concern, should it be a minimum

1848
01:27:45,165 --> 01:27:47,345
or should there be a maximum for

1849
01:27:48,965 --> 01:27:52,345
the first floor permitted non-residential use? Well,

1850
01:27:52,825 --> 01:27:54,065
I think the story is,

1851
01:27:54,085 --> 01:27:57,425
and maybe Beverly, Beverly can, can,

1852
01:27:57,685 --> 01:27:59,185
can fill us in from, from history.

1853
01:27:59,665 --> 01:28:02,025
I, I believe the history is that in dairy

1854
01:28:03,245 --> 01:28:06,505
it has been more profitable to build housing than it is

1855
01:28:06,525 --> 01:28:07,825
to build commercial.

1856
01:28:09,005 --> 01:28:13,625
And we have had had a history of vacant commercial space.

1857
01:28:13,845 --> 01:28:17,745
So unless you force them to have at least 30%,

1858
01:28:17,745 --> 01:28:18,745
they'll do 0%.

1859
01:28:20,095 --> 01:28:21,985
Fair enough. You

1860
01:28:21,985 --> 01:28:22,985
Want me?

1861
01:28:22,985 --> 01:28:25,305
So yeah, I mean you can say you're, you're wrong

1862
01:28:25,305 --> 01:28:26,905
or you're right or it's a different number.

1863
01:28:32,345 --> 01:28:36,185
I think maybe Looking at downtown in years past

1864
01:28:36,245 --> 01:28:37,665
and having that requirement for

1865
01:28:38,345 --> 01:28:42,185
business on the second floor, we want to get rid of that.

1866
01:28:42,565 --> 01:28:45,105
I'm not necessarily in favor of converting

1867
01:28:47,305 --> 01:28:50,025
businesses that are already on first floors into apartments.

1868
01:28:50,345 --> 01:28:51,945
'cause once it's gone, it's gone.

1869
01:28:54,085 --> 01:28:57,505
New construction, I don't really have an issue

1870
01:28:57,505 --> 01:29:00,625
with a live work scenario for someone.

1871
01:29:02,165 --> 01:29:04,925
I don't know if I would wanna be dictating a percentage

1872
01:29:04,955 --> 01:29:07,485
because everybody's situation's gonna be different.

1873
01:29:08,835 --> 01:29:12,245
Well see that's the, the thing about zoning, it's,

1874
01:29:12,245 --> 01:29:14,245
it's not like gold election.

1875
01:29:14,245 --> 01:29:15,845
The three bears you have to put numbers in

1876
01:29:15,845 --> 01:29:18,125
because we're a quasi judicial body.

1877
01:29:18,145 --> 01:29:20,325
We have to have rules and we have to try to enforce them

1878
01:29:20,345 --> 01:29:23,805
as opposed to Well yeah, I like the part of your hair

1879
01:29:23,825 --> 01:29:25,365
so you'll get, you know, this mount

1880
01:29:25,425 --> 01:29:28,525
and oh yeah, you're not dressed nicely so you'll get this.

1881
01:29:28,625 --> 01:29:31,045
We, we have to have it very objective, right?

1882
01:29:31,625 --> 01:29:32,685
Yes. Especially in zoning.

1883
01:29:33,065 --> 01:29:34,365
Yep. And we had talked about,

1884
01:29:34,365 --> 01:29:36,125
like in the gateway district, one

1885
01:29:36,125 --> 01:29:40,205
of the things we talked about was what if somebody wanted

1886
01:29:40,205 --> 01:29:43,845
to do a townhouse kind of a situation for a business like,

1887
01:29:43,845 --> 01:29:45,445
you know, restaurant here in a

1888
01:29:45,445 --> 01:29:47,205
speakeasy upstairs kind of thing.

1889
01:29:47,435 --> 01:29:50,685
Then, then you're talking about vertical versus horizontal.

1890
01:29:50,825 --> 01:29:54,885
So I know you, you won't don't want to hear this part,

1891
01:29:55,305 --> 01:29:56,765
but I almost think it's better

1892
01:29:56,785 --> 01:29:59,885
to do like conditional use permit for the commercial piece

1893
01:29:59,885 --> 01:30:03,005
of it and not be so specific on,

1894
01:30:05,225 --> 01:30:08,045
you know, exactly percentages or whatnot.

1895
01:30:08,585 --> 01:30:11,125
So could we kind of compromise

1896
01:30:11,125 --> 01:30:13,965
and say we're we're looking for 30%

1897
01:30:16,115 --> 01:30:18,605
permitted non-residential use,

1898
01:30:18,605 --> 01:30:19,845
but we don't say whether it's on the first

1899
01:30:19,845 --> 01:30:20,965
floor or wherever it is.

1900
01:30:22,925 --> 01:30:27,645
IIII do have a problem with conditional use permits because

1901
01:30:27,645 --> 01:30:29,165
unless it's written really well

1902
01:30:29,165 --> 01:30:33,245
and the board adjudicates it very crisply,

1903
01:30:33,745 --> 01:30:36,685
it becomes a Oh yeah, I I like what you're doing.

1904
01:30:36,715 --> 01:30:37,765
Yeah, we'll give you that one.

1905
01:30:38,025 --> 01:30:40,605
And the next person comes in gets a different treatment.

1906
01:30:41,285 --> 01:30:43,205
So it, it becomes a constitutional equal

1907
01:30:43,205 --> 01:30:44,605
protection issue. In my opinion.

1908
01:30:45,455 --> 01:30:46,685
Other towns use it

1909
01:30:46,715 --> 01:30:49,365
because it gives flexibility to do just

1910
01:30:49,365 --> 01:30:50,925
what you're saying makes you nervous.

1911
01:30:54,405 --> 01:30:55,605
'cause you don't always know what,

1912
01:30:55,675 --> 01:30:57,165
what the market's gonna demand

1913
01:30:57,265 --> 01:31:00,685
or what somebody might wanna build for whatever reason.

1914
01:31:02,865 --> 01:31:05,365
You know, it's kind of nice to be able to consider things.

1915
01:31:07,645 --> 01:31:10,565
I I I'm not a hundred percent against it, it's just that

1916
01:31:11,525 --> 01:31:15,205
I, I do see that inappropriate use

1917
01:31:15,205 --> 01:31:19,885
of conditional use permits to just grant different rules

1918
01:31:19,905 --> 01:31:22,925
to different people based on what they're doing at the time

1919
01:31:23,145 --> 01:31:26,965
or who happens to be on the board has the potential

1920
01:31:26,965 --> 01:31:28,285
to end us up in court.

1921
01:31:29,025 --> 01:31:30,245
And one of the things i, I try

1922
01:31:30,245 --> 01:31:32,685
to do on the planning board is head that off when,

1923
01:31:32,685 --> 01:31:36,645
when I can, 'cause we have other reasons in the town

1924
01:31:36,645 --> 01:31:37,725
that we're ending up in court

1925
01:31:37,785 --> 01:31:39,165
and I don't, I don't think the planning

1926
01:31:39,165 --> 01:31:40,245
board needs to contribute to that.

1927
01:31:41,385 --> 01:31:44,445
So if you did a minimum of 30% of the

1928
01:31:45,445 --> 01:31:49,405
structure shall be a permitted non-residential use,

1929
01:31:49,465 --> 01:31:51,165
you could, you could do that.

1930
01:31:51,265 --> 01:31:54,485
And then that allows some flex flexibility as to

1931
01:31:54,485 --> 01:31:56,085
where it's placed in the building.

1932
01:31:57,805 --> 01:32:02,125
I have a feeling that given the, the existing structures

1933
01:32:02,125 --> 01:32:05,045
that are here, so if you have conversions, most

1934
01:32:05,065 --> 01:32:07,485
of those businesses would end up on the first floor

1935
01:32:07,715 --> 01:32:09,245
because there's no provisions

1936
01:32:09,245 --> 01:32:11,805
to add elevators without major renovations

1937
01:32:12,685 --> 01:32:13,685
occurring in the buildings

1938
01:32:14,085 --> 01:32:16,325
'cause of the life safety codes and things. So elevators

1939
01:32:16,325 --> 01:32:17,325
Are Expensive.

1940
01:32:17,325 --> 01:32:19,485
They're extremely expensive and they have to be really wide.

1941
01:32:19,825 --> 01:32:22,045
So it, that's a big cost.

1942
01:32:22,045 --> 01:32:24,565
So I would imagine a, you'd get a lot

1943
01:32:24,565 --> 01:32:26,925
of business on the first floor with residential above.

1944
01:32:27,385 --> 01:32:30,925
Not in all cases, but that I think

1945
01:32:31,155 --> 01:32:32,445
what the structure is

1946
01:32:32,445 --> 01:32:33,485
and what they're gonna do with it,

1947
01:32:33,485 --> 01:32:34,885
what kind of drive where that goes.

1948
01:32:35,385 --> 01:32:38,405
But I, I think you absolutely could allow some flexibility.

1949
01:32:38,865 --> 01:32:43,045
So if someone wanted to put a business on this second

1950
01:32:43,105 --> 01:32:45,045
or third floor, then they're allowed to do that

1951
01:32:45,045 --> 01:32:47,205
and they don't have to go for variance. It's

1952
01:32:47,385 --> 01:32:48,325
Mr. Chase. Yeah.

1953
01:32:48,825 --> 01:32:52,325
So the only issue I have with that is, is a big difference

1954
01:32:52,325 --> 01:32:55,485
between 30% of the first floor and 30% of the building.

1955
01:32:57,065 --> 01:32:58,925
If you've got a hundred foot by a hundred foot building

1956
01:32:59,025 --> 01:33:00,605
and you've gotta have 30% commercial,

1957
01:33:00,705 --> 01:33:02,205
that's, that's a big chunk. Yeah.

1958
01:33:02,435 --> 01:33:03,525
That was not Yeah.

1959
01:33:03,575 --> 01:33:05,765
Where I was gonna go like 1500 square feet,

1960
01:33:06,285 --> 01:33:07,605
a 1500 square foot building.

1961
01:33:07,725 --> 01:33:09,005
I mean there's, they're bigger than that.

1962
01:33:09,145 --> 01:33:10,325
The downtown is like

1963
01:33:10,325 --> 01:33:12,165
450. Rephrase the math calculation.

1964
01:33:12,225 --> 01:33:13,885
The math would have to be, it would have

1965
01:33:13,885 --> 01:33:16,405
to be rephrased a little more eloquently than just

1966
01:33:16,405 --> 01:33:18,005
30% of the entire building.

1967
01:33:19,665 --> 01:33:23,725
Yes, correct. Something something to the effect of

1968
01:33:24,425 --> 01:33:27,045
30% of

1969
01:33:29,385 --> 01:33:33,045
one floor placed wherever in the building

1970
01:33:34,705 --> 01:33:38,885
Or 30% of the building's, you know, footprint,

1971
01:33:39,315 --> 01:33:41,405
Footprint in on one floor.

1972
01:33:41,515 --> 01:33:44,125
Yeah. And if they wanna do more, they can do more.

1973
01:33:44,125 --> 01:33:46,525
This is just a minimum. If they wanna put commercial on

1974
01:33:46,525 --> 01:33:48,245
three floors, they can put commercial on three floors.

1975
01:33:48,245 --> 01:33:51,325
But you have to have this percentage somewhere in the

1976
01:33:51,405 --> 01:33:55,005
building for, to qual qualify for mixed use.

1977
01:33:57,205 --> 01:33:58,365
I think that's a, a good catch.

1978
01:33:58,425 --> 01:34:01,325
And and we can, you know, staff can work on, on,

1979
01:34:01,325 --> 01:34:04,325
on the math formulas without making it overly complicated.

1980
01:34:04,805 --> 01:34:06,005
'cause I think the intent was

1981
01:34:06,005 --> 01:34:10,185
that 30% of a floor.

1982
01:34:10,645 --> 01:34:13,185
Yes. Okay. Not specifying which one.

1983
01:34:13,205 --> 01:34:16,185
Now could that mean that it's 15% on the first floor

1984
01:34:16,185 --> 01:34:17,225
or 15% on the second?

1985
01:34:18,105 --> 01:34:22,265
Probably. So we, we, we need to not be overly restrictive.

1986
01:34:22,265 --> 01:34:23,265
Right? Yeah,

1987
01:34:24,095 --> 01:34:25,095
Yeah.

1988
01:34:25,925 --> 01:34:27,305
Yep. I see what you're saying. Yeah.

1989
01:34:30,175 --> 01:34:34,185
Okay, so we're saying a minimum of 30%

1990
01:34:34,185 --> 01:34:36,665
of the building footprint, that's

1991
01:34:36,665 --> 01:34:37,665
Not The right word.

1992
01:34:37,665 --> 01:34:41,025
I might, yeah. I don't know how to word this. Building area

1993
01:34:41,475 --> 01:34:43,945
Footprints usually foundation size, which normal

1994
01:34:46,565 --> 01:34:48,435
which is normal could say something like

1995
01:34:48,535 --> 01:34:52,955
The, the combined, the combined commercial area

1996
01:34:54,255 --> 01:34:56,475
is the equivalent of 30% of one floor.

1997
01:34:57,195 --> 01:34:59,005
Yeah. That, that would might probably work

1998
01:35:00,195 --> 01:35:01,205
Some or something.

1999
01:35:01,265 --> 01:35:06,125
30% of the usable floor space on whatever floor

2000
01:35:07,545 --> 01:35:10,595
deemed not appropriate,

2001
01:35:10,695 --> 01:35:13,915
but is desired by the applicant. Because

2002
01:35:13,915 --> 01:35:16,595
If, well if the goal is to just let commercial

2003
01:35:17,755 --> 01:35:18,835
wherever the developer decides

2004
01:35:18,835 --> 01:35:19,915
to put it in the building Yeah.

2005
01:35:20,055 --> 01:35:21,755
If you just make it like an additive thing,

2006
01:35:21,825 --> 01:35:23,875
then they can put it wherever they want. And

2007
01:35:24,135 --> 01:35:27,475
The split well where it's only a minimum they could go,

2008
01:35:27,535 --> 01:35:30,435
you know, 30% on the first floor, your townhouse style

2009
01:35:30,435 --> 01:35:32,595
and then if they wanna put another 20% on the second

2010
01:35:32,605 --> 01:35:34,595
floor for your restaurant.

2011
01:35:35,025 --> 01:35:37,075
Yeah. I think we don't want sty a minimum.

2012
01:35:37,075 --> 01:35:38,835
We're not co we're not limiting them. Yeah.

2013
01:35:38,835 --> 01:35:40,235
We don't wanna limit the commercial. They can,

2014
01:35:40,235 --> 01:35:41,115
they can put whatever they want,

2015
01:35:41,135 --> 01:35:42,275
but they have to have that minimum.

2016
01:35:43,055 --> 01:35:45,235
Are we okay if on floor, are we okay if

2017
01:35:45,235 --> 01:35:48,195
that means a building ends up being 100% commercial? Oh we

2018
01:35:48,375 --> 01:35:49,375
Oh yeah, we love that.

2019
01:35:49,375 --> 01:35:50,315
Oh we love that. Absolutely.

2020
01:35:50,455 --> 01:35:52,635
Oh yeah. Yep. So I

2021
01:35:52,635 --> 01:35:54,915
Mean I, I think that that might happen.

2022
01:35:55,715 --> 01:35:56,955
I mean the history is that

2023
01:35:57,755 --> 01:35:59,355
re residential sell better in dairy.

2024
01:35:59,745 --> 01:36:02,715
Yeah. So I wouldn't be worried about

2025
01:36:02,715 --> 01:36:05,795
that happening when doing in in excess.

2026
01:36:06,265 --> 01:36:07,555
Okay. But so

2027
01:36:09,175 --> 01:36:10,175
Mr.

2028
01:36:10,175 --> 01:36:12,075
Chair Yes. So if we're going in that direction,

2029
01:36:12,745 --> 01:36:15,075
like not restricting to a single floor, which

2030
01:36:15,995 --> 01:36:19,515
I think I'm in favor of, might it be simpler

2031
01:36:19,655 --> 01:36:21,035
to just pick a different number?

2032
01:36:21,175 --> 01:36:24,155
So 10% of total floor area,

2033
01:36:26,285 --> 01:36:29,485
whatever the number is, but kind of prevent having

2034
01:36:29,485 --> 01:36:32,685
to do calculus when interpreting the, the ordinance

2035
01:36:32,705 --> 01:36:35,925
and just pick a number that is a function of the total

2036
01:36:37,105 --> 01:36:39,925
square footage total floor area of the building.

2037
01:36:40,105 --> 01:36:44,445
So it scales with number of floors naturally.

2038
01:36:45,995 --> 01:36:47,045
Yeah, I mean that might work.

2039
01:36:47,125 --> 01:36:49,285
I mean you, you might want to use the, you know,

2040
01:36:49,465 --> 01:36:52,325
net square footage just so that they're not counting attics

2041
01:36:52,325 --> 01:36:54,165
and garages and things, but Right.

2042
01:36:54,395 --> 01:36:57,605
Okay. Livable Combined commercial shall be the

2043
01:36:57,605 --> 01:37:00,485
equivalent of Yeah, it simpler is better.

2044
01:37:02,625 --> 01:37:04,925
So what are our words? Are we, are we going

2045
01:37:04,925 --> 01:37:07,725
with like the combined commercial area shall be the

2046
01:37:07,725 --> 01:37:12,085
equivalent of, are we saying like 10% of the net floor area?

2047
01:37:14,435 --> 01:37:16,005
Yeah. I mean that works. That

2048
01:37:16,005 --> 01:37:17,005
Makes sense.

2049
01:37:19,765 --> 01:37:21,925
I, I suppose is 10% then I what we want to do.

2050
01:37:22,035 --> 01:37:23,685
Yeah. And I, I admit,

2051
01:37:23,765 --> 01:37:26,125
I didn't realize if I was supposed to, I apologize.

2052
01:37:26,405 --> 01:37:28,925
I did not do any research on the precedent for

2053
01:37:28,925 --> 01:37:30,605
that number. Yeah,

2054
01:37:30,605 --> 01:37:31,605
No, that's good.

2055
01:37:32,275 --> 01:37:33,445
That was, that was something

2056
01:37:33,445 --> 01:37:35,845
that we had discussed at like the last workshop

2057
01:37:35,865 --> 01:37:37,805
and that was wording that came out of that so

2058
01:37:39,195 --> 01:37:42,605
Well, so it probably came out of the

2059
01:37:43,245 --> 01:37:44,645
original kind of formula.

2060
01:37:45,115 --> 01:37:49,365
Yeah. In, in urban planner school was in these areas, you,

2061
01:37:49,785 --> 01:37:51,605
the first floor is retail,

2062
01:37:51,705 --> 01:37:54,525
the second floor is professional office and the third

2063
01:37:54,665 --> 01:37:57,045
and up is, is is residential.

2064
01:37:57,705 --> 01:38:02,245
And so therefore if we only require the, the,

2065
01:38:02,465 --> 01:38:07,445
the retail part, that would've been, you know, 30%,

2066
01:38:07,855 --> 01:38:09,725
again, if it was only a three story building.

2067
01:38:09,745 --> 01:38:12,605
But we're also upping the number of stories allowed.

2068
01:38:12,625 --> 01:38:16,245
So that makes the map a little more complicated.

2069
01:38:16,345 --> 01:38:19,205
But I I do agree that if we have a single number

2070
01:38:20,015 --> 01:38:22,365
based on the total net square footage,

2071
01:38:22,575 --> 01:38:24,125
applicable square footage of the building,

2072
01:38:24,545 --> 01:38:26,365
that's a lot easier for people to deal with than

2073
01:38:27,455 --> 01:38:28,955
So the net livable floor area.

2074
01:38:29,275 --> 01:38:30,515
I mean how, what's

2075
01:38:30,875 --> 01:38:33,875
I, I don't, I don't know what the correct word of art is.

2076
01:38:34,305 --> 01:38:37,475
Okay. I'm sure there is a word of art

2077
01:38:37,475 --> 01:38:38,555
that describes Yeah.

2078
01:38:38,835 --> 01:38:40,075
'cause I know in a,

2079
01:38:40,175 --> 01:38:42,635
on our assessing cards we have like gross floor area

2080
01:38:42,635 --> 01:38:43,915
and then we have livable area.

2081
01:38:44,465 --> 01:38:47,675
Yeah. And so the difference is being in real estate,

2082
01:38:47,755 --> 01:38:49,635
I know this so livable would,

2083
01:38:49,685 --> 01:38:51,915
would have a heating source and flooring.

2084
01:38:52,895 --> 01:38:54,875
So picture it as a first floor

2085
01:38:54,895 --> 01:38:57,995
and you have some living space,

2086
01:38:58,895 --> 01:39:01,555
but you also have where all your utilities are

2087
01:39:01,865 --> 01:39:04,515
with the cement floor, the cement floor is not living space.

2088
01:39:05,015 --> 01:39:06,475
So you can't calculate that in.

2089
01:39:06,975 --> 01:39:09,715
That's the difference between overall square footage

2090
01:39:09,935 --> 01:39:11,435
and livable square footage. Yeah.

2091
01:39:11,435 --> 01:39:13,315
Right. And sta you gotta count your stairways

2092
01:39:13,315 --> 01:39:14,675
or if there's elevator shafts

2093
01:39:14,745 --> 01:39:17,075
that takes up square footage, you don't count that. Right.

2094
01:39:17,075 --> 01:39:19,435
Okay. Flooring and heating source Yeah.

2095
01:39:19,465 --> 01:39:22,115
Have to be considered for living space.

2096
01:39:25,145 --> 01:39:28,155
Well, I mean, come back with some, whoever wants to,

2097
01:39:28,155 --> 01:39:30,315
to take a swipe, come back at some, some numbers.

2098
01:39:30,655 --> 01:39:34,075
We don't have to settle on the final tax.

2099
01:39:34,305 --> 01:39:35,675
It's often easier to somewhere

2100
01:39:35,675 --> 01:39:37,555
between judge it when we actually see it in front of us.

2101
01:39:37,665 --> 01:39:40,235
Okay. Like somewhere between 10 and 30. Yeah.

2102
01:39:40,345 --> 01:39:41,345
Okay. Alright.

2103
01:39:41,915 --> 01:39:43,155
And, and you can also look at what other

2104
01:39:43,965 --> 01:39:46,475
humanities are doing in their core business areas

2105
01:39:47,795 --> 01:39:48,795
A lot.

2106
01:39:48,795 --> 01:39:53,155
Yeah. Okay. A a lot of people are moving to form base.

2107
01:39:53,255 --> 01:39:55,795
So I, I I wanna stay away from that.

2108
01:39:57,305 --> 01:39:59,395
Haven't done that yet. Okay. We don't

2109
01:39:59,395 --> 01:40:00,395
Want that.

2110
01:40:00,395 --> 01:40:00,635
Yeah, I know. So that's why,

2111
01:40:00,635 --> 01:40:01,875
that's why I was like, oh, okay.

2112
01:40:03,545 --> 01:40:06,595
Alright. So yeah. Okay.

2113
01:40:07,175 --> 01:40:09,355
We have changed a couple things.

2114
01:40:10,155 --> 01:40:12,795
I think transportation spelled that got repel.

2115
01:40:12,795 --> 01:40:14,995
That was the spelling. Yeah. Parking

2116
01:40:14,995 --> 01:40:16,595
facilities got taken out.

2117
01:40:17,035 --> 01:40:18,115
I, I have a question on that.

2118
01:40:18,825 --> 01:40:21,115
What, why are we taking parking out

2119
01:40:22,415 --> 01:40:23,675
of the central business district?

2120
01:40:25,175 --> 01:40:28,955
If we're gonna add density, why are we eliminating parking?

2121
01:40:29,185 --> 01:40:31,235
Well, it would be a, it would be a like

2122
01:40:31,755 --> 01:40:35,875
a lot being converted to a, just a parking lot.

2123
01:40:36,175 --> 01:40:38,435
That's what we're, we wouldn't wanna do that.

2124
01:40:38,455 --> 01:40:41,195
So if Cumberland Farms went away

2125
01:40:42,495 --> 01:40:43,995
and someone bought it and just wanted

2126
01:40:44,015 --> 01:40:46,355
to put a parking lot there, I don't think that's

2127
01:40:46,355 --> 01:40:47,755
what we would, that wouldn't be the best

2128
01:40:47,815 --> 01:40:49,355
and highest use of that lot. Okay. So we, so

2129
01:40:49,355 --> 01:40:50,395
We've gotta add something in there

2130
01:40:50,395 --> 01:40:52,755
because by definition a parking facility is

2131
01:40:52,755 --> 01:40:53,925
what we're building on Aport, which

2132
01:40:53,925 --> 01:40:57,605
Is in the TBOD, which is okay 'cause this is the CBD.

2133
01:40:57,615 --> 01:41:02,205
Right. But there are some opportunities in the CBD lots

2134
01:41:02,205 --> 01:41:05,685
that we wouldn't, we walked past on our site walking in

2135
01:41:05,925 --> 01:41:10,645
February that would be cohesive with mixed use in,

2136
01:41:10,925 --> 01:41:13,085
combined with a parking garage such as Abbott court

2137
01:41:13,085 --> 01:41:15,125
that are in the CBD and on the TBOD.

2138
01:41:16,325 --> 01:41:18,485
I mean Mr. Chase has a, a valid point

2139
01:41:18,685 --> 01:41:20,925
'cause we're we're talking about increasing

2140
01:41:21,155 --> 01:41:23,165
density that means more people.

2141
01:41:23,665 --> 01:41:26,085
And one of the things I've noticed personally is

2142
01:41:26,825 --> 01:41:29,805
if you've got four people living in a house,

2143
01:41:29,915 --> 01:41:31,405
they have four or five cars.

2144
01:41:32,155 --> 01:41:35,525
Yeah. And so on some of these smaller lots,

2145
01:41:36,305 --> 01:41:38,965
if we increase the density there, we may need

2146
01:41:38,965 --> 01:41:40,285
to think about where are those cars gonna go.

2147
01:41:40,285 --> 01:41:42,085
Right. 'cause they're not necessarily gonna go on onsite

2148
01:41:42,085 --> 01:41:43,365
and they're not necessarily gonna go on street.

2149
01:41:44,105 --> 01:41:45,405
So, and I agree with that

2150
01:41:45,965 --> 01:41:50,725
because one of, unfortunately I'm becoming known

2151
01:41:50,725 --> 01:41:52,445
as the parking queen because I'm always

2152
01:41:52,445 --> 01:41:53,485
asking about parking.

2153
01:41:55,545 --> 01:41:59,965
If we do that can, is there a way to say parking facilities,

2154
01:41:59,965 --> 01:42:02,005
but there it's not by itself.

2155
01:42:02,195 --> 01:42:06,915
Like do we want an entire lot in the CBD

2156
01:42:06,915 --> 01:42:08,195
to become a parking garage

2157
01:42:08,215 --> 01:42:11,235
or do we want it to be connected with a use? Well, I

2158
01:42:11,235 --> 01:42:12,195
Guess the question is, I guess that's

2159
01:42:12,195 --> 01:42:12,955
what I'm asking. Yeah.

2160
01:42:13,495 --> 01:42:17,995
If I'm a, an entrepreneur, what is my ROI on,

2161
01:42:18,335 --> 01:42:23,155
you know, making a flat parking lot

2162
01:42:25,095 --> 01:42:28,035
versus building a structure.

2163
01:42:28,935 --> 01:42:32,235
I'm gonna think the natural tendency is to build a building

2164
01:42:32,265 --> 01:42:33,835
that you can rent to people

2165
01:42:34,785 --> 01:42:36,435
over a building on the parking lot

2166
01:42:36,435 --> 01:42:38,435
where you can rent them a space just

2167
01:42:38,435 --> 01:42:40,475
because the money issue. Right. But,

2168
01:42:40,935 --> 01:42:42,195
And, and I guess a lot of

2169
01:42:42,195 --> 01:42:43,555
where my question also comes from,

2170
01:42:43,745 --> 01:42:47,275
besides what I've stated is if you look at the definition

2171
01:42:47,275 --> 01:42:49,955
of parking facility, it's not just a parking lot.

2172
01:42:50,145 --> 01:42:51,835
It's below ground. It's above ground,

2173
01:42:52,045 --> 01:42:53,995
which is a parking garage.

2174
01:42:55,435 --> 01:42:58,975
So, and there are some lots in the CBD that would

2175
01:43:00,475 --> 01:43:05,375
be easily converted to a parking garage in association

2176
01:43:05,445 --> 01:43:07,175
with the increased density that we're having.

2177
01:43:07,495 --> 01:43:11,495
I mean it's, it's natural if you increase density, you, you,

2178
01:43:11,515 --> 01:43:12,575
you increase a need for parking.

2179
01:43:12,675 --> 01:43:16,495
So to eliminate a parking facility in the CBD is not,

2180
01:43:17,165 --> 01:43:18,615
doesn't, to me it doesn't make sense.

2181
01:43:20,155 --> 01:43:22,935
It can be, the definition could be changed

2182
01:43:23,195 --> 01:43:27,355
or it could be changed

2183
01:43:27,935 --> 01:43:29,355
in the non permitted uses.

2184
01:43:31,135 --> 01:43:32,755
So that, as you stated, no,

2185
01:43:32,755 --> 01:43:36,355
we do not want a building taken down such

2186
01:43:36,355 --> 01:43:38,995
as we have had a couple, we had one on Central Street

2187
01:43:39,905 --> 01:43:41,075
next to the house hand club.

2188
01:43:41,135 --> 01:43:42,995
We had one on Burt Street.

2189
01:43:43,145 --> 01:43:47,355
They tore down a building that was mixed use

2190
01:43:48,255 --> 01:43:49,915
and it's a parking lot now.

2191
01:43:50,315 --> 01:43:51,725
Actually two of 'em on Burt Street.

2192
01:43:52,125 --> 01:43:53,885
So that's not what we want,

2193
01:43:56,425 --> 01:44:00,725
but we should encourage the development of parking garage.

2194
01:44:00,885 --> 01:44:02,965
I mean that's, any, any, if you look at any

2195
01:44:02,965 --> 01:44:07,165
of the other towns or cities in the state, you know, Nashua,

2196
01:44:07,165 --> 01:44:08,365
Manchester, Portsmouth,

2197
01:44:08,685 --> 01:44:09,965
Portsmouth has built three parking

2198
01:44:09,965 --> 01:44:11,245
garages in the last year and a half.

2199
01:44:11,795 --> 01:44:13,445
Concord, Concord, same thing.

2200
01:44:13,875 --> 01:44:15,885
There's, there's a need for it. We can't eliminate that.

2201
01:44:15,885 --> 01:44:17,605
That's, that's my the point I'm trying to get across.

2202
01:44:17,745 --> 01:44:20,205
We can't eliminate that with what we're trying to do

2203
01:44:20,205 --> 01:44:22,805
with density and bringing people to the downtown.

2204
01:44:23,825 --> 01:44:25,805
So if, if there's a concern about a single

2205
01:44:27,215 --> 01:44:30,965
floor parking lot, I dunno what to call it, like an open lot

2206
01:44:31,535 --> 01:44:34,685
would, we could, if that's actually a concern,

2207
01:44:34,965 --> 01:44:38,805
I suppose we could add a definition parking lot as opposed

2208
01:44:38,805 --> 01:44:40,445
to parking facility or whatever.

2209
01:44:41,385 --> 01:44:45,765
And then that could be a, well not a prohibited use,

2210
01:44:45,785 --> 01:44:46,845
but I,

2211
01:44:46,945 --> 01:44:50,005
but I generally agree that parking facilities,

2212
01:44:50,005 --> 01:44:53,365
especially if it's in a mixed use context, though,

2213
01:44:53,385 --> 01:44:55,845
I'm not a hundred percent sure how that would work.

2214
01:44:56,675 --> 01:45:00,165
Does this prohibit a multi-story building from

2215
01:45:00,165 --> 01:45:01,165
Build?

2216
01:45:01,165 --> 01:45:02,765
No. No. So if you had, if stand alone, yeah.

2217
01:45:02,765 --> 01:45:04,445
If you standalone a big lot

2218
01:45:04,745 --> 01:45:07,645
and you were putting up like multi-story building

2219
01:45:07,705 --> 01:45:09,885
and it had some commercial and it had some residential

2220
01:45:10,225 --> 01:45:13,525
and then you wanted to put a parking garage beside it.

2221
01:45:13,585 --> 01:45:16,365
That's not, that's all part of that thing.

2222
01:45:16,525 --> 01:45:18,685
I don't, I don't think we would look at that

2223
01:45:18,705 --> 01:45:20,885
and say, oh you can't have the parking garage

2224
01:45:22,205 --> 01:45:25,925
because that's an accessory use to the, on that one lot.

2225
01:45:25,995 --> 01:45:28,405
It's an accessory use to the primary, which is

2226
01:45:28,405 --> 01:45:29,405
that mixed use commercial

2227
01:45:29,565 --> 01:45:30,565
Building.

2228
01:45:30,565 --> 01:45:32,485
What if it's the primary use to another accessory use?

2229
01:45:32,705 --> 01:45:36,565
If the primary use is, I'm gonna take this, you know,

2230
01:45:36,565 --> 01:45:39,405
threequarter of an acre lot and I'm gonna stripe it

2231
01:45:39,465 --> 01:45:41,125
and make it a parking lot

2232
01:45:41,945 --> 01:45:45,725
and I'm going to privately charge people for, to park there

2233
01:45:45,825 --> 01:45:49,685
or I'm going to, I, I don't, I I don't know.

2234
01:45:49,725 --> 01:45:51,845
I mean we, we allow, I'm trying to, I'm working

2235
01:45:51,845 --> 01:45:53,245
through this in my brain right now.

2236
01:45:53,945 --> 01:45:55,845
We allow businesses

2237
01:45:56,665 --> 01:46:00,445
and in the TBOD especially,

2238
01:46:00,505 --> 01:46:05,445
we allow businesses to have on and off street, like public

2239
01:46:05,545 --> 01:46:08,125
and private parking and they can make up their parking

2240
01:46:08,155 --> 01:46:10,925
numbers if they have a private agreement with somebody else.

2241
01:46:11,705 --> 01:46:13,045
But I think the whole goal is

2242
01:46:13,045 --> 01:46:14,565
that we do not wanna promote on

2243
01:46:14,565 --> 01:46:15,645
our vacant lots that we have.

2244
01:46:15,945 --> 01:46:19,725
We don't wanna promote parking lots.

2245
01:46:20,735 --> 01:46:23,005
Maybe we can do that with a definitional thing

2246
01:46:23,025 --> 01:46:27,045
and say a parking facility is not a surface parking lot.

2247
01:46:27,505 --> 01:46:31,565
It is a multi-story parking garage, which may

2248
01:46:31,565 --> 01:46:35,525
or may not be in, in, you know, consort with some other

2249
01:46:36,795 --> 01:46:39,685
development on, on top of it or, or or the side of it.

2250
01:46:39,745 --> 01:46:42,285
But my concern is

2251
01:46:42,285 --> 01:46:45,085
that if we're gonna increase the density in that district

2252
01:46:45,225 --> 01:46:46,525
and we walk the most of the district

2253
01:46:46,525 --> 01:46:47,805
and most of those parcels are small.

2254
01:46:48,385 --> 01:46:51,605
So if we increase the number of people living in those

2255
01:46:53,285 --> 01:46:55,625
places on those small lots,

2256
01:46:56,885 --> 01:46:58,345
you can't increase the size of the lot.

2257
01:46:58,405 --> 01:46:59,465
You can't shrink the cars

2258
01:47:00,725 --> 01:47:02,545
and more people is gonna be in more cars.

2259
01:47:02,565 --> 01:47:04,225
So they're gonna need some sort

2260
01:47:04,225 --> 01:47:07,425
of private offsite parking arrangement.

2261
01:47:07,845 --> 01:47:10,465
And there's gotta be the ability for somebody

2262
01:47:10,525 --> 01:47:13,585
to put in a parking garage that could service all

2263
01:47:13,585 --> 01:47:15,625
of the increased residential density

2264
01:47:15,655 --> 01:47:16,745
that we just talked about.

2265
01:47:17,015 --> 01:47:18,825
Okay. Can we, oh, go ahead.

2266
01:47:19,325 --> 01:47:21,545
So if the concerns avoiding parking lots,

2267
01:47:21,545 --> 01:47:23,505
could you just not change it to multi-level parking

2268
01:47:23,555 --> 01:47:26,625
facilities so it avoids the parking lot?

2269
01:47:26,665 --> 01:47:28,385
Yeah, I think we'd have to change our definition

2270
01:47:28,385 --> 01:47:29,705
of parking facilities.

2271
01:47:30,275 --> 01:47:32,145
Which right now I'm gonna borrow your books.

2272
01:47:32,175 --> 01:47:34,465
Yeah. Okay. That's why I put it there. Thank

2273
01:47:34,465 --> 01:47:35,465
You.

2274
01:47:35,465 --> 01:47:38,825
A parking facility is a use dedicated to the outdoor storage

2275
01:47:38,845 --> 01:47:41,865
of registered motor vehicles, which may be at ground level,

2276
01:47:42,195 --> 01:47:44,225
below ground and or above ground.

2277
01:47:44,775 --> 01:47:47,785
Such use shall be devoted to the parking of passenger cars

2278
01:47:47,925 --> 01:47:51,265
and shall specifically exclude unregistered motor vehicles

2279
01:47:51,285 --> 01:47:53,265
in trucks registered over one ton.

2280
01:47:55,785 --> 01:47:57,425
I suppose if we wanted

2281
01:47:57,425 --> 01:47:59,745
to retain parking facility in the CBD,

2282
01:47:59,745 --> 01:48:02,745
we could amend the definition of parking facility

2283
01:48:03,325 --> 01:48:05,185
and remove that at ground level

2284
01:48:05,365 --> 01:48:08,625
and then add a parking lot definition.

2285
01:48:08,685 --> 01:48:10,265
So my, my my suggestion is

2286
01:48:10,265 --> 01:48:13,065
that might have unintended consequences based on where else

2287
01:48:13,065 --> 01:48:15,425
that let's just add a new use and, and,

2288
01:48:15,445 --> 01:48:17,505
and I think as, as Mr. Wood suggest,

2289
01:48:17,505 --> 01:48:19,825
they call it multi-level parking facility.

2290
01:48:19,975 --> 01:48:23,665
Okay. And make that have more requirements

2291
01:48:23,725 --> 01:48:27,105
and then change this to multi-level parking facility.

2292
01:48:27,165 --> 01:48:28,745
And that way we don't change

2293
01:48:29,535 --> 01:48:31,105
uses in other districts by mistake.

2294
01:48:31,335 --> 01:48:33,345
Okay. Would someone like to come up

2295
01:48:33,345 --> 01:48:35,825
with a definition from multi-level parking facility

2296
01:48:36,575 --> 01:48:38,835
or I can use the planner's dictionary, whichever you prefer.

2297
01:48:41,185 --> 01:48:44,635
Yeah, I mean I think the, the idea is that, and,

2298
01:48:44,655 --> 01:48:48,635
and tell me if I'm crazy if, if we increase the density

2299
01:48:49,055 --> 01:48:51,795
and we don't increase the size of the lots and,

2300
01:48:51,895 --> 01:48:53,395
and we're having redevelopment.

2301
01:48:53,625 --> 01:48:54,835
Yeah. I, no, I yep, I agree.

2302
01:48:54,835 --> 01:48:55,835
Where are we gonna park the cars?

2303
01:48:56,115 --> 01:48:58,995
I agree. Because then becomes the problem that, you know,

2304
01:48:59,135 --> 01:49:00,635
my daughter's always talking about in

2305
01:49:00,645 --> 01:49:01,955
Dover, there's nowhere to park.

2306
01:49:02,025 --> 01:49:06,355
Well I mean the, the, the apartments slash condos along

2307
01:49:06,595 --> 01:49:07,795
Broadway, they were parking on the street

2308
01:49:07,795 --> 01:49:09,915
and the town said no, no, no, no.

2309
01:49:10,595 --> 01:49:12,235
I don't know. I dunno where they're parking now,

2310
01:49:12,255 --> 01:49:13,555
but they must have found somewhere.

2311
01:49:14,265 --> 01:49:17,795
Okay. This is where, this is where in redevelopment

2312
01:49:19,135 --> 01:49:21,555
on certain areas of the town, you have smaller lots.

2313
01:49:21,555 --> 01:49:24,515
This is when people start combining these lots

2314
01:49:25,895 --> 01:49:28,795
and we may start seeing some of this already coming up

2315
01:49:28,845 --> 01:49:30,995
where they wanna expand their business,

2316
01:49:31,505 --> 01:49:32,955
they need more parking or whatever,

2317
01:49:34,055 --> 01:49:35,515
so they're gonna buy up the next lot.

2318
01:49:37,085 --> 01:49:40,115
Right? Yep. So that's what you're really kind of promoting.

2319
01:49:40,865 --> 01:49:44,835
Okay. So, well it's, it's what we're promoting,

2320
01:49:44,835 --> 01:49:46,235
but it's what we're trying to prevent too.

2321
01:49:46,375 --> 01:49:49,365
We don't want what's happened in the past by the next lot,

2322
01:49:50,595 --> 01:49:52,445
kick that business out, tear that down

2323
01:49:52,465 --> 01:49:55,245
and put in just parking lot, just ground level parking.

2324
01:49:55,245 --> 01:49:56,365
That's what we're trying to avoid.

2325
01:49:56,665 --> 01:49:59,125
So we've gotta have a definition to prevent that.

2326
01:49:59,245 --> 01:50:00,405
I agree with, with Ms.

2327
01:50:00,405 --> 01:50:02,645
Roberto on that we, that that's what we're trying to avoid.

2328
01:50:02,745 --> 01:50:05,885
So we have to have some kind of a definition so that

2329
01:50:05,885 --> 01:50:07,845
that does not happen anymore.

2330
01:50:07,895 --> 01:50:09,685
We've already lost a couple of prime lots to

2331
01:50:09,685 --> 01:50:10,685
that we don't wanna lose anymore.

2332
01:50:12,465 --> 01:50:15,605
So one of the kind of main concerns here is, is

2333
01:50:16,195 --> 01:50:18,765
like the Cumberland Law, these kind of empty

2334
01:50:19,235 --> 01:50:21,565
that are on the main road going down here,

2335
01:50:22,895 --> 01:50:25,525
would it be huge issue if some of these back roads

2336
01:50:25,525 --> 01:50:26,765
of a parking garage went up?

2337
01:50:26,765 --> 01:50:30,685
Because if we, maybe 'cause in Concord was mentioned

2338
01:50:30,785 --> 01:50:32,885
and Concord's parking garage specifically the one

2339
01:50:32,885 --> 01:50:34,365
that is right by the State House.

2340
01:50:34,675 --> 01:50:36,525
Yeah, that's a big parking facility,

2341
01:50:36,545 --> 01:50:38,885
but it's kind of sandwiched between two buildings

2342
01:50:38,885 --> 01:50:40,045
that are on the frontage of

2343
01:50:40,045 --> 01:50:41,045
The main road.

2344
01:50:41,045 --> 01:50:42,525
Yeah. So Cumberland was probably not a great example

2345
01:50:42,885 --> 01:50:44,285
'cause that's actually in the TBOD.

2346
01:50:44,345 --> 01:50:48,325
But like as you move back, you know, behind.

2347
01:50:48,505 --> 01:50:51,045
So if we go, you know, Pearl Street or Yeah.

2348
01:50:51,045 --> 01:50:52,405
Those first couple roads we went down Yeah.

2349
01:50:52,405 --> 01:50:56,165
In there or along Franklin, I, I don't think we would want,

2350
01:50:56,965 --> 01:50:58,565
I don't think we would want someone to take down

2351
01:50:58,565 --> 01:51:00,565
that beautiful gray house that's there,

2352
01:51:00,665 --> 01:51:04,085
that's been there forever and, and, and take that down

2353
01:51:04,085 --> 01:51:06,245
and make a parking lot there.

2354
01:51:06,515 --> 01:51:07,845
Yeah. Yeah. That's not the best

2355
01:51:07,845 --> 01:51:09,485
and highest use of that land.

2356
01:51:11,225 --> 01:51:12,445
So I don't,

2357
01:51:12,505 --> 01:51:14,765
but we do need parking if we're gonna,

2358
01:51:14,785 --> 01:51:17,205
if we're gonna promote density and I agree with all of that.

2359
01:51:17,305 --> 01:51:19,565
So if you're gonna live in the downtown, you need to be able

2360
01:51:19,565 --> 01:51:21,005
to have a place to put your vehicle

2361
01:51:21,155 --> 01:51:22,965
because let's face it, it's New England

2362
01:51:22,985 --> 01:51:24,885
and we don't have public transportation here.

2363
01:51:25,425 --> 01:51:27,245
So it's, you have to have a car

2364
01:51:28,185 --> 01:51:29,685
And you know, not for nothing.

2365
01:51:29,825 --> 01:51:34,285
We have parking vans on downtown streets in, in the winter.

2366
01:51:34,725 --> 01:51:38,525
And so to the extent that people use on street parking,

2367
01:51:38,595 --> 01:51:40,245
they can only do that for part of the year.

2368
01:51:40,695 --> 01:51:42,005
Where are they gonna put the car in the winter?

2369
01:51:43,835 --> 01:51:46,405
Okay. I mean in large cities.

2370
01:51:47,795 --> 01:51:48,925
I've never lived in a large city.

2371
01:51:48,945 --> 01:51:52,125
But my understanding is that when they have a snow emergency

2372
01:51:52,145 --> 01:51:53,805
and you have to get your cars off the street,

2373
01:51:54,265 --> 01:51:56,725
all the city garages open up for free parking,

2374
01:51:56,785 --> 01:51:58,285
you're supposed to put your cars there.

2375
01:51:59,075 --> 01:52:02,125
Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

2376
01:52:02,125 --> 01:52:03,845
Yeah, I think we need two definitions.

2377
01:52:03,945 --> 01:52:04,965
One for packing facility

2378
01:52:04,965 --> 01:52:08,205
and one for a packing lot ground level packing lot.

2379
01:52:08,895 --> 01:52:10,115
And I think that would clear it up

2380
01:52:14,075 --> 01:52:16,385
until somebody finds some creative way to challenge it.

2381
01:52:21,335 --> 01:52:24,345
Okay. Okay. Alright.

2382
01:52:24,705 --> 01:52:27,425
We'll probably come back to that again. Yes sir. Okay.

2383
01:52:27,485 --> 01:52:31,435
We added medical office. Anyone have any issues with that?

2384
01:52:31,935 --> 01:52:35,875
No. And then on the one

2385
01:52:36,625 --> 01:52:41,035
without public sewer, we removed a whole bunch of stuff

2386
01:52:41,035 --> 01:52:42,275
and then said conversions

2387
01:52:42,275 --> 01:52:43,675
and new developments must connect

2388
01:52:43,675 --> 01:52:44,955
to the municipal sewer system.

2389
01:52:45,715 --> 01:52:46,725
Yeah. Yeah.

2390
01:52:46,725 --> 01:52:50,045
Right now the sewer ordinance says if you're within 125

2391
01:52:50,045 --> 01:52:51,085
feet you have to connect.

2392
01:52:51,145 --> 01:52:54,445
But in the CBD, water and sewer is everywhere.

2393
01:52:54,445 --> 01:52:56,165
And if they're not connected, there's no,

2394
01:52:56,165 --> 01:52:58,765
they're they're gonna be within 125 feet.

2395
01:52:58,825 --> 01:53:01,125
Oh yeah. So there's no reason not to have them connect.

2396
01:53:01,745 --> 01:53:03,405
I'm just recalling. And I don't know if it

2397
01:53:03,605 --> 01:53:04,965
pertains maybe to the downtown.

2398
01:53:05,165 --> 01:53:07,165
'cause most of the downtown's got water and sewer anyway.

2399
01:53:08,945 --> 01:53:10,885
But when I was on the council one time, we,

2400
01:53:10,985 --> 01:53:13,045
we brought sewer down a certain road

2401
01:53:13,305 --> 01:53:15,965
and then we required the residences to connect.

2402
01:53:16,865 --> 01:53:19,845
And then at the time, I won't name any names,

2403
01:53:19,945 --> 01:53:22,765
it was a senator that changed the law that says you don't,

2404
01:53:22,765 --> 01:53:24,645
you're not, you can't force them to connect.

2405
01:53:24,955 --> 01:53:27,885
Okay. Just check into that just to be sure.

2406
01:53:27,885 --> 01:53:29,885
Because that, that,

2407
01:53:29,985 --> 01:53:32,085
and what happened with that law is they said, yeah,

2408
01:53:32,085 --> 01:53:35,525
you don't have to connect until your septic fails.

2409
01:53:35,525 --> 01:53:37,245
Okay. Once that fails, then you have to connect.

2410
01:53:37,555 --> 01:53:39,165
Okay. All right. We'll do that.

2411
01:53:39,405 --> 01:53:40,645
I know for new developments,

2412
01:53:40,985 --> 01:53:44,365
I'm pretty sure the sewer ordinance says within 125 feet.

2413
01:53:44,505 --> 01:53:46,125
So I'll double check all that.

2414
01:53:46,485 --> 01:53:47,925
I mean, I don't understand why wouldn't,

2415
01:53:47,925 --> 01:53:48,925
people wouldn't want to connect

2416
01:53:48,925 --> 01:53:50,485
because it, it's bringing more value

2417
01:53:50,665 --> 01:53:53,805
but still there are people that Yeah. Don't wanna be told.

2418
01:53:54,025 --> 01:53:55,085
Yep. And then you have all that

2419
01:53:55,085 --> 01:53:56,525
additional air you can use.

2420
01:53:56,525 --> 01:53:58,845
Now it's not encumbered by septic.

2421
01:53:59,115 --> 01:54:01,245
Well again, you know, with with more, more density,

2422
01:54:01,465 --> 01:54:04,125
you're gonna have more bathrooms and more Right.

2423
01:54:04,255 --> 01:54:08,365
Water flow and you're probably gonna over stress the

2424
01:54:09,205 --> 01:54:11,085
capacity of whatever septic you may have anyway.

2425
01:54:11,595 --> 01:54:15,445
Yeah. Well, not to

2426
01:54:16,315 --> 01:54:20,605
beat on this, but you're right about that law.

2427
01:54:21,385 --> 01:54:22,645
But if they're converting

2428
01:54:23,025 --> 01:54:24,205
or if it's a new development,

2429
01:54:24,585 --> 01:54:27,085
it falls under this regulation that Ms.

2430
01:54:27,235 --> 01:54:28,845
Robo was talking about. If they're converting it

2431
01:54:29,385 --> 01:54:30,845
and especially adding density,

2432
01:54:31,795 --> 01:54:34,325
then their original sew design is gone.

2433
01:54:34,685 --> 01:54:35,845
Septic design, I mean, is gone.

2434
01:54:35,905 --> 01:54:39,525
So they have to connect and if it's new,

2435
01:54:39,625 --> 01:54:40,845
it falls under the regulations.

2436
01:54:40,845 --> 01:54:45,165
They have to connect and then if they want greater density,

2437
01:54:45,635 --> 01:54:46,765
they're gonna have to connect.

2438
01:54:47,195 --> 01:54:49,285
Yeah. You can use that for the capacity.

2439
01:54:49,285 --> 01:54:50,285
So if self regulates Yeah,

2440
01:54:50,285 --> 01:54:51,285
I'll double I'll double check though.

2441
01:54:51,485 --> 01:54:53,885
'cause we don't wanna be contrary to any state law. Right.

2442
01:54:53,955 --> 01:54:56,885
Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Good point.

2443
01:54:57,835 --> 01:55:02,645
Okay, so, oh,

2444
01:55:02,645 --> 01:55:04,085
the next one is, is is mine.

2445
01:55:04,185 --> 01:55:06,085
So we, we we, we've wanted to figure out

2446
01:55:06,085 --> 01:55:08,685
what we're gonna do about yard depth.

2447
01:55:09,325 --> 01:55:14,125
'cause the orig, the current re regulation is that can be

2448
01:55:15,895 --> 01:55:17,405
eight, eight feet because we wanted

2449
01:55:17,425 --> 01:55:19,245
to again, maintain the street scape.

2450
01:55:19,345 --> 01:55:23,485
We didn't want bowling alley lots with buildings

2451
01:55:23,485 --> 01:55:26,005
that way back next to one that's right up on the street.

2452
01:55:26,185 --> 01:55:27,445
So it looks like a saw tooth.

2453
01:55:28,265 --> 01:55:32,085
So I made some attempts at this

2454
01:55:32,225 --> 01:55:35,365
and the numbers were ones that I literally picked out of air

2455
01:55:35,465 --> 01:55:40,125
and I'm happy to have folks suggest alternate numbers.

2456
01:55:40,265 --> 01:55:41,885
But basically the idea was that

2457
01:55:43,835 --> 01:55:48,045
when the lot width at the front lot line is 75 feet

2458
01:55:48,065 --> 01:55:51,365
or less, the maximum yard depth

2459
01:55:51,555 --> 01:55:53,925
that was a typo shall be eight feet

2460
01:55:55,205 --> 01:55:57,385
or the average of the existing yard depths

2461
01:55:57,445 --> 01:56:00,305
for 100 feet in every direction along the street,

2462
01:56:01,395 --> 01:56:02,445
whichever whichever's greater.

2463
01:56:03,025 --> 01:56:06,525
And then b, when the lot width at the front lot line is

2464
01:56:06,525 --> 01:56:08,005
greater than 75 feet,

2465
01:56:08,305 --> 01:56:10,885
the maximum yard depth shall be 25 feet.

2466
01:56:10,945 --> 01:56:13,285
So it basically means that you got a big,

2467
01:56:13,825 --> 01:56:15,525
big walk wide frontage,

2468
01:56:15,985 --> 01:56:18,205
you can be set back a little bit 'cause it's in scale.

2469
01:56:19,285 --> 01:56:21,885
If you've got a narrow lot, we don't want you

2470
01:56:21,885 --> 01:56:23,605
to like push the building to the back of a lot.

2471
01:56:24,785 --> 01:56:27,765
And I think you did some artwork that goes along with this.

2472
01:56:28,205 --> 01:56:32,885
I did. So if you, in your packet, there's a sheet

2473
01:56:32,885 --> 01:56:35,205
that has, where'd it go?

2474
01:56:35,365 --> 01:56:40,325
I just had it, it has the eight and 25 foot setback shown.

2475
01:56:41,105 --> 01:56:44,845
So it, it's hard to see on the sheet.

2476
01:56:45,005 --> 01:56:47,685
I do have it on the overhead if you guys feel the

2477
01:56:47,685 --> 01:56:48,725
need to zoom in on it.

2478
01:56:49,625 --> 01:56:51,245
But when you look at these,

2479
01:56:52,675 --> 01:56:55,765
when you look at this like the West Broadway one, the black

2480
01:56:55,765 --> 01:56:57,365
that you see, like the gray line

2481
01:56:57,365 --> 01:56:58,685
with the red, that's the road.

2482
01:56:58,785 --> 01:57:01,365
And then there's like white, which is probably still road.

2483
01:57:01,365 --> 01:57:05,525
Then there's a black line, the red area,

2484
01:57:05,835 --> 01:57:07,725
there's like a little yellow strip.

2485
01:57:08,385 --> 01:57:11,485
So that yellow strip would be the eight foot setback.

2486
01:57:12,905 --> 01:57:15,005
So if, if you, I dunno if you can zoom in on that, Owen

2487
01:57:15,065 --> 01:57:18,285
or not, if you can make that bigger.

2488
01:57:19,925 --> 01:57:21,805
Hmm. Oh, the yellows are very light yellow. Okay.

2489
01:57:21,915 --> 01:57:23,285
Yeah it is. Yeah. They're light yellow.

2490
01:57:23,305 --> 01:57:26,685
So, so when you look at it, so the buildable area

2491
01:57:26,955 --> 01:57:29,765
with the eight foot maximum is the red.

2492
01:57:29,825 --> 01:57:31,325
That's where you can put your buildings.

2493
01:57:31,785 --> 01:57:35,445
The yellow would be the setback for

2494
01:57:36,425 --> 01:57:40,005
the areas in blue it would be from the,

2495
01:57:40,145 --> 01:57:42,605
the black line back to your buildable,

2496
01:57:42,755 --> 01:57:45,485
your buildable area would be the blue areas

2497
01:57:46,715 --> 01:57:49,085
from the black property line, if that makes sense.

2498
01:57:50,265 --> 01:57:52,045
So black is your property line

2499
01:57:52,265 --> 01:57:56,245
and then red is your eight foot building envelope.

2500
01:57:56,585 --> 01:57:59,405
And then blue is the 25 foot building envelope.

2501
01:58:00,345 --> 01:58:03,565
And you'll see on some of these lots, like if you look over

2502
01:58:03,565 --> 01:58:08,045
where Grove Street is, you, some of the lots, like you,

2503
01:58:08,225 --> 01:58:09,965
you couldn't, they're so small, you,

2504
01:58:09,965 --> 01:58:12,205
there's no way you could have a 25 foot setback.

2505
01:58:12,205 --> 01:58:16,365
The lot becomes unbuildable in the same down in the,

2506
01:58:16,825 --> 01:58:20,445
in like in the Sawyer store court area.

2507
01:58:24,865 --> 01:58:27,125
So this just kind of gives you an idea of, you know,

2508
01:58:27,145 --> 01:58:29,005
in those areas you could put a structure.

2509
01:58:30,105 --> 01:58:31,605
So I'm, I'm still a little confused

2510
01:58:31,885 --> 01:58:35,325
'cause the, you've got a, a key for blue,

2511
01:58:35,385 --> 01:58:37,285
it says buffer 25 red.

2512
01:58:37,285 --> 01:58:38,725
Yeah. Buffer eight. Yes.

2513
01:58:38,725 --> 01:58:40,325
But there's no key for yellow. What is that?

2514
01:58:40,545 --> 01:58:43,885
The yellow is the, that is, so when you're looking at it,

2515
01:58:43,885 --> 01:58:48,085
so you've got the, you have the black property line.

2516
01:58:48,085 --> 01:58:50,685
Yeah. So if you could look like just above South Owen,

2517
01:58:51,555 --> 01:58:53,325
like just above the word south.

2518
01:58:53,325 --> 01:58:54,925
So you've got the black property line.

2519
01:58:54,925 --> 01:58:56,365
So that's your property line. Yep.

2520
01:58:56,825 --> 01:59:00,845
The, that yellow distance between the black property line,

2521
01:59:01,105 --> 01:59:02,485
the yellow between the black

2522
01:59:02,485 --> 01:59:04,885
and the red, that is your, that's your eight foot setback.

2523
01:59:05,985 --> 01:59:07,805
So the red area. So why,

2524
01:59:07,865 --> 01:59:10,525
Why is the red called the buffer eight?

2525
01:59:10,635 --> 01:59:13,045
Because that is the buildable area.

2526
01:59:13,515 --> 01:59:14,965
That would be your buildable area

2527
01:59:15,075 --> 01:59:17,445
with an eight foot maximum setback.

2528
01:59:17,665 --> 01:59:19,685
You can build, you could put a structure

2529
01:59:20,165 --> 01:59:21,245
anywhere where that red is

2530
01:59:22,835 --> 01:59:25,205
Inclusive of the Inclusive of the blue, I would guess

2531
01:59:25,205 --> 01:59:26,285
Inclusive of the blue.

2532
01:59:26,425 --> 01:59:27,885
Yes. Oh, okay. Yes. Sorry.

2533
01:59:27,885 --> 01:59:31,405
Because I couldn't, yeah, I, there was, if I tried

2534
01:59:31,405 --> 01:59:33,485
to show like, here's your red, here's your blue.

2535
01:59:33,485 --> 01:59:34,525
Yeah. It wouldn't have made sense

2536
01:59:34,545 --> 01:59:37,205
and it, so you wouldn't have seen what I wanted you to see.

2537
01:59:37,585 --> 01:59:42,085
Gotcha. So, and then where the blue is that is your,

2538
01:59:42,345 --> 01:59:46,285
the blue is your buildable area at a 25 foot setback.

2539
01:59:47,635 --> 01:59:50,725
Yeah. I'm guessing from looking at this, that there are

2540
01:59:51,375 --> 01:59:56,085
there certain number of lots in that first quadrant

2541
01:59:57,185 --> 02:00:01,045
of the map on, on your sheet that could really use a,

2542
02:00:01,065 --> 02:00:02,885
an eight foot setback

2543
02:00:03,165 --> 02:00:07,005
and then the other quadrant to the right.

2544
02:00:07,035 --> 02:00:09,285
It's like, yeah, that's not gonna, that's not gonna happen.

2545
02:00:12,585 --> 02:00:16,445
So again, that I guess my intent was that

2546
02:00:17,705 --> 02:00:20,165
if it, if there's two standards, one for wide lots

2547
02:00:20,165 --> 02:00:21,845
and one for skinny lots, the,

2548
02:00:21,845 --> 02:00:23,925
the skinny lots over on the the right would

2549
02:00:23,925 --> 02:00:25,045
just not make sense.

2550
02:00:26,105 --> 02:00:28,245
The wider lots over on the left. Yeah.

2551
02:00:28,345 --> 02:00:32,085
It, it might make sense depending on what you wanna do.

2552
02:00:34,635 --> 02:00:37,285
This is a little misleading

2553
02:00:37,435 --> 02:00:40,165
because we're only talking about front setback. Correct.

2554
02:00:40,515 --> 02:00:41,885
Yeah. And unfortunately

2555
02:00:41,885 --> 02:00:43,365
There's so the red on the side in the back

2556
02:00:43,495 --> 02:00:44,495
Right.

2557
02:00:44,495 --> 02:00:45,485
There's, there's way. So you're building on hope

2558
02:00:45,585 --> 02:00:47,205
Is Really, there's no way to make it.

2559
02:00:47,235 --> 02:00:49,965
Yeah. It is bigger. There's no way for me to make the,

2560
02:00:50,705 --> 02:00:52,685
the GIS do what I want it to do. So

2561
02:00:52,685 --> 02:00:54,565
When you look at this, you've gotta look at it from the

2562
02:00:54,565 --> 02:00:55,605
street side only.

2563
02:00:55,675 --> 02:00:57,845
Yeah. And look at your red envelope. Yeah.

2564
02:00:57,905 --> 02:01:01,525
And then your blue on both sides in the rear,

2565
02:01:01,525 --> 02:01:02,965
your blue would go all the way back.

2566
02:01:03,155 --> 02:01:06,005
Yeah. To your eight foot.

2567
02:01:06,115 --> 02:01:08,125
Yeah. But it gives you, So it's not that small

2568
02:01:08,905 --> 02:01:10,125
on the sides and the back.

2569
02:01:10,235 --> 02:01:12,045
It's only in the front, the red. Yeah.

2570
02:01:12,585 --> 02:01:14,405
But I think it does point out that there's two

2571
02:01:15,035 --> 02:01:16,205
classes of lots.

2572
02:01:16,205 --> 02:01:18,605
Yes. The ones that it just doesn't make any sense, right?

2573
02:01:18,605 --> 02:01:19,965
Yeah. And the ones it doesn't.

2574
02:01:19,965 --> 02:01:24,245
And I guess the question is, is the the 75 foot un and under

2575
02:01:24,265 --> 02:01:26,405
or the 75 foot and over, is that the right

2576
02:01:27,155 --> 02:01:28,325
demarcation for this?

2577
02:01:28,935 --> 02:01:31,405
Maybe in this district it might need to be 50

2578
02:01:31,835 --> 02:01:35,325
because there's a lot of lots that are, that are like

2579
02:01:36,115 --> 02:01:39,725
50 feet wide or 60 feet, you know, 60 or

2580
02:01:39,945 --> 02:01:40,945
One.

2581
02:01:40,945 --> 02:01:43,885
So if it's 51 foot, you should have a deep setback.

2582
02:01:45,135 --> 02:01:49,485
Maybe I'm just, I I'm thinking 75 might for this district

2583
02:01:50,495 --> 02:01:51,765
might not be the right number.

2584
02:01:52,055 --> 02:01:53,485
Maybe it's 60. I'm not sure.

2585
02:01:56,085 --> 02:02:00,275
Again, the, the idea was to eliminate the, the sawtooth

2586
02:02:00,795 --> 02:02:03,155
and, and fulfill the, the purpose of,

2587
02:02:03,175 --> 02:02:05,795
of maintaining a somewhat uniform street scape.

2588
02:02:08,855 --> 02:02:11,355
The, the other thing that we should probably look at,

2589
02:02:11,355 --> 02:02:15,955
because I think it is not separable from

2590
02:02:16,075 --> 02:02:20,195
this, is the parking.

2591
02:02:24,975 --> 02:02:27,315
So that's over on page five.

2592
02:02:29,845 --> 02:02:34,355
Right? So the proposal there

2593
02:02:34,655 --> 02:02:37,955
was that number one,

2594
02:02:38,535 --> 02:02:40,635
all off street parking areas shall be

2595
02:02:40,835 --> 02:02:44,555
provided in such a way that no vehicle will be required to,

2596
02:02:44,575 --> 02:02:48,675
or likely to back into the street access drive into the lot.

2597
02:02:48,985 --> 02:02:52,275
That was text I stole from the TBOD. Yeah.

2598
02:02:52,455 --> 02:02:54,635
We kind of agreed that. I don't know where that came from.

2599
02:02:54,665 --> 02:02:56,795
Well, I have no, I, there's no record

2600
02:02:56,815 --> 02:02:59,355
of why into the lot was added back in outside. Yeah. So

2601
02:02:59,355 --> 02:03:03,475
I, I know that during our district walk we said, man,

2602
02:03:04,055 --> 02:03:05,915
you know, having these cars parked here

2603
02:03:05,915 --> 02:03:07,115
and having to back out into the street,

2604
02:03:07,115 --> 02:03:08,155
that's, that's kind of dangerous.

2605
02:03:09,095 --> 02:03:11,595
So we said, let's not do that.

2606
02:03:12,995 --> 02:03:15,235
Number two, no parking, storage

2607
02:03:15,295 --> 02:03:17,715
or display of vehicles shall be allowed

2608
02:03:17,715 --> 02:03:18,915
between the front lot line

2609
02:03:19,375 --> 02:03:21,035
and a line parallel with the front

2610
02:03:21,375 --> 02:03:23,475
of the structure closest to the front lot line.

2611
02:03:24,255 --> 02:03:25,795
So basically that means you can't

2612
02:03:25,795 --> 02:03:26,995
park in front of your building.

2613
02:03:29,215 --> 02:03:31,435
And I think that that will be self-regulating

2614
02:03:31,435 --> 02:03:34,755
because in my opinion, the reason

2615
02:03:34,755 --> 02:03:38,315
that somebody would most likely want a big 25

2616
02:03:38,335 --> 02:03:42,115
or 50 foot setback is they want to have a parking lot

2617
02:03:42,215 --> 02:03:43,915
for their tenants

2618
02:03:43,915 --> 02:03:45,115
or their customers in front of their building.

2619
02:03:45,615 --> 02:03:48,675
And we just, I heard everyone on the board pretty

2620
02:03:48,675 --> 02:03:49,755
much say we don't want that.

2621
02:03:54,485 --> 02:03:58,865
And then the final one says three, that parking shall

2622
02:03:58,895 --> 02:04:00,145
otherwise be as

2623
02:04:00,385 --> 02:04:01,585
provided in chapter one 70 land

2624
02:04:01,585 --> 02:04:02,785
development control regulations.

2625
02:04:02,845 --> 02:04:06,345
So it says, you know, don't design it so you have

2626
02:04:06,345 --> 02:04:08,905
to back out in the street and you can't actually

2627
02:04:08,905 --> 02:04:11,145
park in front of your building.

2628
02:04:11,765 --> 02:04:13,625
At least in, in, in new developments,

2629
02:04:13,625 --> 02:04:15,505
obviously existing stuff is grandfathered.

2630
02:04:15,555 --> 02:04:19,675
Right? Yeah. So that in conjunction

2631
02:04:20,505 --> 02:04:24,555
with the option to have a larger setback, if,

2632
02:04:24,585 --> 02:04:27,345
if the reason people want it is not to put picnic tables

2633
02:04:27,585 --> 02:04:30,985
and gazebos for outside dining, they wanna park cars,

2634
02:04:31,815 --> 02:04:33,905
they're probably not gonna choose that option.

2635
02:04:37,515 --> 02:04:40,165
Okay. What's on that

2636
02:04:41,795 --> 02:04:44,805
Also not as, not as substantial as, as what you're saying,

2637
02:04:44,825 --> 02:04:49,685
but shouldn't also the revised July 16th, 2015 be part

2638
02:04:49,685 --> 02:04:52,125
of the element that struck out? Oh,

2639
02:04:52,125 --> 02:04:53,125
It could be, yeah.

2640
02:04:53,125 --> 02:04:54,405
When we get to the final draft,

2641
02:04:54,575 --> 02:04:56,285
we'll make sure everything's accounted for.

2642
02:05:00,595 --> 02:05:02,605
Alright. So I'm not, I'm not getting any comments here.

2643
02:05:02,625 --> 02:05:05,685
So it's either good, very good or very bad.

2644
02:05:06,525 --> 02:05:07,685
I, I like it.

2645
02:05:07,805 --> 02:05:11,725
I was skeptical reading the, your proposal for the setback

2646
02:05:11,855 --> 02:05:13,085
until we got to the parking

2647
02:05:13,845 --> 02:05:16,885
because I, I think my issue with the,

2648
02:05:17,595 --> 02:05:20,685
with allowing a larger setback was parking in front

2649
02:05:20,685 --> 02:05:22,765
of the buildings and this park

2650
02:05:24,355 --> 02:05:26,325
parking section really addresses that

2651
02:05:26,625 --> 02:05:27,805
and alleviates my concern.

2652
02:05:29,195 --> 02:05:30,445
Okay. Any other thoughts?

2653
02:05:31,475 --> 02:05:35,485
Yeah, I, I, I absolutely concur with the, the goal

2654
02:05:35,505 --> 02:05:37,245
of not having this parking in the front

2655
02:05:37,385 --> 02:05:39,405
and the, the setbacks to accommodate that.

2656
02:05:42,625 --> 02:05:44,085
You were saying that you kind of, you kind

2657
02:05:44,085 --> 02:05:47,045
of pulled these numbers of what felt kind of right.

2658
02:05:47,425 --> 02:05:51,725
Was that from our, our site walk or were you looking at

2659
02:05:51,785 --> 02:05:54,725
Map or It, it was based on, on my memory of,

2660
02:05:55,105 --> 02:05:56,205
of the sidewalk and,

2661
02:05:56,225 --> 02:05:59,325
and the size of, of varying sizes of parcels.

2662
02:06:01,865 --> 02:06:04,645
But there's, it was no scientific research behind it. Okay.

2663
02:06:04,645 --> 02:06:05,885
Because that was the only, I just,

2664
02:06:07,305 --> 02:06:10,165
We, I had to put some numbers in to show Yeah.

2665
02:06:10,195 --> 02:06:11,485
What the, the structure was.

2666
02:06:11,825 --> 02:06:13,165
I'm just not convinced that the numbers

2667
02:06:13,165 --> 02:06:14,965
that are in there are the correct numbers.

2668
02:06:15,395 --> 02:06:17,605
That, that's kind of what I was getting at that, you know,

2669
02:06:17,605 --> 02:06:20,165
maybe it might be worth, I don't know if we,

2670
02:06:20,165 --> 02:06:21,405
maybe not another site walk,

2671
02:06:21,425 --> 02:06:24,245
but just, I dunno, another workshop in the future.

2672
02:06:24,245 --> 02:06:26,645
Maybe we look into it a bit more or try to try to get

2673
02:06:26,645 --> 02:06:27,645
Some numbers.

2674
02:06:27,645 --> 02:06:31,445
Well, maybe, I mean, I'm no GIS expert either,

2675
02:06:31,625 --> 02:06:35,885
but it might make sense to try to take two

2676
02:06:36,405 --> 02:06:39,565
prototypical lots, one of the, the larger size

2677
02:06:39,565 --> 02:06:42,485
that could accommodate larger scale redevelopment

2678
02:06:42,485 --> 02:06:44,285
and then one of the smaller ones where yeah,

2679
02:06:44,285 --> 02:06:48,005
you're really maybe gonna create another apartment or two

2680
02:06:49,265 --> 02:06:50,645
and try to do a paper doll.

2681
02:06:51,755 --> 02:06:54,925
Okay. Yep. Study on, on, on those. Okay.

2682
02:06:55,065 --> 02:06:57,645
And, and figure out, alright, where, where,

2683
02:06:57,645 --> 02:06:59,325
where is the threshold lot width,

2684
02:06:59,695 --> 02:07:02,645
where it doesn't become an ugly saw tooth.

2685
02:07:02,875 --> 02:07:04,485
Okay. And some of that is perceptional

2686
02:07:05,705 --> 02:07:09,605
and aesthetic, so there's probably no hard answer

2687
02:07:09,605 --> 02:07:10,645
to that. Okay.

2688
02:07:10,675 --> 02:07:11,805
Alright. We can do that.

2689
02:07:12,745 --> 02:07:17,325
So my only concern is with section A,

2690
02:07:17,325 --> 02:07:19,965
with the average of the existing yard depths

2691
02:07:19,965 --> 02:07:22,285
for a hundred feet in every direction, I get you're trying

2692
02:07:22,285 --> 02:07:25,005
to go for uniformity, but in,

2693
02:07:25,075 --> 02:07:26,075
Well, Ms.

2694
02:07:26,075 --> 02:07:26,925
Ro thought that was a bad idea

2695
02:07:26,945 --> 02:07:28,805
and that we should probably strike that part out

2696
02:07:29,675 --> 02:07:31,565
because it just makes things more complicated.

2697
02:07:31,565 --> 02:07:33,125
That's, and I didn't argue with that. So

2698
02:07:33,125 --> 02:07:34,485
Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking.

2699
02:07:34,955 --> 02:07:39,605
Okay. I guess I, I'm concerned

2700
02:07:39,605 --> 02:07:43,365
and the only way to show it out would be a GIS study,

2701
02:07:43,505 --> 02:07:47,485
but there's probably several lots

2702
02:07:47,485 --> 02:07:49,765
that are at least 75 feet wide

2703
02:07:49,865 --> 02:07:54,565
but might not support a 25 foot yard depth

2704
02:07:56,105 --> 02:07:58,765
due to depth limitations. So.

2705
02:07:59,295 --> 02:08:02,845
Right. I, I did do a little bit of spot checking

2706
02:08:04,665 --> 02:08:06,965
before the meeting to kind of give an idea.

2707
02:08:07,145 --> 02:08:11,885
So in this section here, so the, the little insert

2708
02:08:12,085 --> 02:08:16,045
to the right, the three lots that front on Birch Street,

2709
02:08:17,465 --> 02:08:19,845
the one to the left is 74 feet wide.

2710
02:08:20,625 --> 02:08:22,605
The one in the middle is 65.

2711
02:08:22,785 --> 02:08:26,005
And then that narrow one is 66, believe it

2712
02:08:26,005 --> 02:08:28,485
or not, for frontage.

2713
02:08:28,905 --> 02:08:31,485
And then down in the

2714
02:08:32,435 --> 02:08:37,165
central court area on the corner of Central Street

2715
02:08:37,305 --> 02:08:38,485
and central court,

2716
02:08:41,075 --> 02:08:45,365
that lot has 55 feet of frontage on Central Street.

2717
02:08:46,945 --> 02:08:49,125
And then the,

2718
02:08:50,775 --> 02:08:55,275
the 23 central court, which is the, the, in that area,

2719
02:08:55,345 --> 02:08:58,675
it's the second largest blue area,

2720
02:08:58,835 --> 02:09:00,195
I guess is the best way to put it.

2721
02:09:00,585 --> 02:09:02,595
That has 67 feet of frontage.

2722
02:09:02,595 --> 02:09:04,555
So it's narrow at the front, it gets bigger to the back.

2723
02:09:05,095 --> 02:09:09,835
But that one is like, that has different characteristics

2724
02:09:10,115 --> 02:09:13,155
'cause it's encumbered by floodplain and all of that stuff.

2725
02:09:13,175 --> 02:09:16,315
So that doesn't have as big a buildable area on it.

2726
02:09:16,895 --> 02:09:19,475
But just to give you an idea of what some

2727
02:09:19,475 --> 02:09:20,635
of the frontages were,

2728
02:09:21,275 --> 02:09:23,115
I do think that that, that achieve what we want

2729
02:09:23,115 --> 02:09:24,475
to achieve though, even though it has

2730
02:09:24,475 --> 02:09:27,835
that larger area in the back, we wouldn't want that property

2731
02:09:27,835 --> 02:09:29,795
to be, to be set back 25 feet

2732
02:09:30,675 --> 02:09:32,315
'cause that it would, it's surrounded

2733
02:09:32,375 --> 02:09:34,675
by properties with less frontage.

2734
02:09:34,695 --> 02:09:37,035
And so if they were all eight foot and then that one was 25,

2735
02:09:37,305 --> 02:09:40,515
That one, I mean that particular one, the character

2736
02:09:40,515 --> 02:09:42,675
of the neighborhood, the homes are, the homes

2737
02:09:42,735 --> 02:09:44,515
and buildings are all set back further.

2738
02:09:45,415 --> 02:09:48,755
So, you know, it, this one would be,

2739
02:09:49,105 --> 02:09:50,155
what do we have it written?

2740
02:09:50,265 --> 02:09:52,915
It's less than 75 feet. So it would be at the eight

2741
02:09:54,965 --> 02:09:57,755
We're kind of imagining Yeah. Planning for redevelopment.

2742
02:09:57,755 --> 02:10:00,115
Yeah. So it would, you'd have, you'd have

2743
02:10:01,325 --> 02:10:02,755
everything set back

2744
02:10:02,775 --> 02:10:05,275
and then this one would be right on the road

2745
02:10:06,055 --> 02:10:08,115
or you know, at that maximum eight feet.

2746
02:10:08,535 --> 02:10:09,795
So I don't, I don't know.

2747
02:10:10,575 --> 02:10:12,915
And, and if, if this is just my, my angle, but

2748
02:10:12,915 --> 02:10:14,435
Lemme know which, which supports his argument

2749
02:10:14,435 --> 02:10:16,315
to have the average of, you know,

2750
02:10:16,315 --> 02:10:18,115
the a hundred foot average. So

2751
02:10:18,675 --> 02:10:21,555
I, this may just be my lack of familiarity,

2752
02:10:21,655 --> 02:10:24,955
but anytime you're trying to make these kind

2753
02:10:24,955 --> 02:10:28,035
of aesthetic changes and you're not just buying up a whole

2754
02:10:28,035 --> 02:10:29,195
neighborhood smashing everything

2755
02:10:29,195 --> 02:10:32,395
and rebuilding it all at once, you won't, you always kind

2756
02:10:32,395 --> 02:10:34,005
of have these, you know,

2757
02:10:34,005 --> 02:10:35,405
that building doesn't really look right right now

2758
02:10:35,765 --> 02:10:36,845
because it's incrementally changing.

2759
02:10:37,325 --> 02:10:41,125
Okay. Yep. You will. I

2760
02:10:42,035 --> 02:10:46,005
it's been voiced, but I guess my only, my other concern

2761
02:10:46,005 --> 02:10:50,285
with this is the hard difference between the two.

2762
02:10:52,745 --> 02:10:56,445
So, you know, like you'll have one that's one foot over

2763
02:10:57,505 --> 02:11:00,205
the width that we specify whatever width we specify,

2764
02:11:00,845 --> 02:11:02,325
there's gonna be, you know,

2765
02:11:03,345 --> 02:11:06,565
So I mean I, we could have three or four tiers.

2766
02:11:09,225 --> 02:11:12,895
And I guess the question is, is that really better?

2767
02:11:13,125 --> 02:11:16,815
It's certainly more complicated. It is more flexible.

2768
02:11:20,455 --> 02:11:23,935
I, I think one of my problems is I'm, I'm trying

2769
02:11:23,935 --> 02:11:27,455
to visualize the future state.

2770
02:11:28,135 --> 02:11:30,895
'cause we, we know what the current state is, right? Right.

2771
02:11:32,275 --> 02:11:34,175
I'm trying to figure out why someone

2772
02:11:34,205 --> 02:11:36,855
with an har lot would want a, a deep front yard.

2773
02:11:38,755 --> 02:11:40,975
What's it gonna look like? And and what are the amenities?

2774
02:11:40,975 --> 02:11:44,215
What's the, what, why would the, the jaggedness of,

2775
02:11:44,235 --> 02:11:47,735
of the street scape be a good trade off

2776
02:11:47,755 --> 02:11:50,295
for whatever they decide to put in their front yard?

2777
02:11:51,945 --> 02:11:53,745
I just can't visualize it myself.

2778
02:11:54,885 --> 02:11:57,025
We, we are operating on the presupposition

2779
02:11:57,025 --> 02:12:00,465
that these developers will always take the massive maximum

2780
02:12:00,465 --> 02:12:02,425
amount of setback that they can. Well,

2781
02:12:02,505 --> 02:12:04,745
I, I I I, I don't think they will the,

2782
02:12:05,165 --> 02:12:07,745
but the request was to provide flexibility

2783
02:12:07,745 --> 02:12:11,985
because some would the parking thing I put in,

2784
02:12:12,105 --> 02:12:13,905
'cause I suspected most of them would

2785
02:12:13,905 --> 02:12:15,065
do it 'cause they wanted parking.

2786
02:12:15,125 --> 02:12:16,225
And if they couldn't have parking,

2787
02:12:16,295 --> 02:12:18,105
they might choose to do something else.

2788
02:12:18,695 --> 02:12:21,465
Okay. But I'm trying to figure out if it's not parking

2789
02:12:22,205 --> 02:12:24,545
and it's not a, you know, blue house pizza

2790
02:12:24,695 --> 02:12:27,105
with picnic tables out front, what's it gonna be?

2791
02:12:29,765 --> 02:12:31,785
My, my vision, I guess is limited in, in,

2792
02:12:31,845 --> 02:12:32,945
in, in thinking about that.

2793
02:12:33,365 --> 02:12:36,065
All right. So it's after nine o'clock.

2794
02:12:36,125 --> 02:12:38,465
So I'll admit my brain is not the sharpest,

2795
02:12:38,565 --> 02:12:42,905
but if, if we changed the word maximum to minimum,

2796
02:12:43,365 --> 02:12:45,785
so you could have a minimum of an eight foot,

2797
02:12:45,925 --> 02:12:47,185
but you could go back further.

2798
02:12:47,775 --> 02:12:51,385
Well, no, I think the whole, to preserve a streets scape

2799
02:12:51,385 --> 02:12:54,145
as we do with the TBOD, it has to be a maximum.

2800
02:12:54,265 --> 02:12:57,785
A maximum. Because a minimum means if it's a minimum of 25,

2801
02:12:58,205 --> 02:13:00,785
the maximum could be to your back W line.

2802
02:13:01,475 --> 02:13:03,145
Right. Okay. And that's not what we want.

2803
02:13:03,255 --> 02:13:04,305
Yeah. Right. Okay.

2804
02:13:04,485 --> 02:13:08,385
So for clarity, we're the intent here being proposed is to

2805
02:13:09,055 --> 02:13:11,305
pull future development closer to the street.

2806
02:13:11,845 --> 02:13:16,265
We, we want, we want the central business district to kind

2807
02:13:16,265 --> 02:13:20,105
of look like the streets one block

2808
02:13:20,165 --> 02:13:22,305
or two blocks off of Elm in Manchester

2809
02:13:22,525 --> 02:13:24,305
or off of Maine in Nashua.

2810
02:13:26,205 --> 02:13:28,745
That's kind of the vision in my brain. Okay.

2811
02:13:29,855 --> 02:13:32,285
Alright. So one last thing though.

2812
02:13:32,845 --> 02:13:35,405
We, I'm trying to find it.

2813
02:13:35,485 --> 02:13:36,725
I can't, I used to know exactly

2814
02:13:36,725 --> 02:13:38,085
where it was and I cannot find it.

2815
02:13:38,085 --> 02:13:39,565
Now we also have

2816
02:13:44,065 --> 02:13:47,865
a article in our ordinances that in older neighborhoods,

2817
02:13:47,925 --> 02:13:49,505
if you are building

2818
02:13:50,245 --> 02:13:54,105
or adding on, you are not required

2819
02:13:54,205 --> 02:13:56,225
to meet the 35 foot setback.

2820
02:13:56,245 --> 02:13:58,985
It says that you must be within the average of

2821
02:13:59,785 --> 02:14:01,425
structures 100 feet.

2822
02:14:01,425 --> 02:14:02,745
That's on either side.

2823
02:14:02,965 --> 02:14:04,825
So we have to write this so

2824
02:14:04,825 --> 02:14:07,825
that it does not run a foul of that.

2825
02:14:10,225 --> 02:14:12,265
I think it wasn't, I don't think it's a separate

2826
02:14:12,815 --> 02:14:14,065
section by itself.

2827
02:14:14,265 --> 02:14:16,945
I think it's interspersed in some of the various

2828
02:14:17,425 --> 02:14:18,425
Districts.

2829
02:14:18,425 --> 02:14:19,305
It is. And I was trying to find one

2830
02:14:19,305 --> 02:14:20,385
Of them that had it Real quick

2831
02:14:20,565 --> 02:14:21,665
and I couldn't, I'd have to sit

2832
02:14:22,125 --> 02:14:23,905
Mh MHDR might be one of them. Yeah.

2833
02:14:24,005 --> 02:14:26,065
Or Over near, like

2834
02:14:26,925 --> 02:14:27,925
In this area.

2835
02:14:27,925 --> 02:14:29,305
OBD. Yeah. Yeah.

2836
02:14:30,735 --> 02:14:34,585
Okay. In, yeah. MHDR.

2837
02:14:36,585 --> 02:14:40,545
I know that we have that set in there so that, you know,

2838
02:14:40,845 --> 02:14:42,385
if you're putting an addition on your house,

2839
02:14:42,965 --> 02:14:44,465
you meet all the setbacks,

2840
02:14:44,465 --> 02:14:47,985
but you can't meet the 35 foot, all you have

2841
02:14:47,985 --> 02:14:49,945
to do is meet the average of the

2842
02:14:50,065 --> 02:14:51,505
structures on the side of you.

2843
02:14:53,165 --> 02:14:56,585
So we don't wanna run AFO of that with the language on this.

2844
02:14:57,495 --> 02:15:01,425
I'll look for it. I, I have to say,

2845
02:15:01,425 --> 02:15:02,545
I like the way this is written

2846
02:15:02,545 --> 02:15:06,105
because I think if you make it smaller than 75 feet,

2847
02:15:06,175 --> 02:15:09,225
it's gonna look, if, if you redevelop a larger lot

2848
02:15:09,485 --> 02:15:11,265
and you've got everything else eight foot

2849
02:15:11,405 --> 02:15:15,185
or you know, tight to the street, it would kind of give

2850
02:15:15,185 --> 02:15:17,305
that crown molding sawtooth look.

2851
02:15:17,305 --> 02:15:19,505
So I actually, I like the way this is with a 75 foot.

2852
02:15:21,215 --> 02:15:25,465
Okay. All right. So I can, well

2853
02:15:25,465 --> 02:15:28,545
We, we can set, you know, we can chew on this. Hmm.

2854
02:15:28,615 --> 02:15:30,225
Okay. And,

2855
02:15:30,285 --> 02:15:32,905
and maybe if we have some, a couple of paper dolls

2856
02:15:32,905 --> 02:15:34,025
that are more Okay.

2857
02:15:34,095 --> 02:15:36,385
Realistic than, than the JIS allows

2858
02:15:36,525 --> 02:15:38,065
you, they have to be hand drawn. We'll,

2859
02:15:38,065 --> 02:15:39,065
Okay.

2860
02:15:39,065 --> 02:15:39,705
We'll work on that. Okay.

2861
02:15:40,675 --> 02:15:42,345
Maybe we take a few minutes

2862
02:15:42,345 --> 02:15:45,305
and look at a couple of the others.

2863
02:15:45,405 --> 02:15:47,865
At least have a first discussion on them. Yeah.

2864
02:15:47,885 --> 02:15:51,745
For example, but maximum building or structure height.

2865
02:15:52,845 --> 02:15:54,105
Who, who, who was that?

2866
02:15:54,295 --> 02:15:55,825
That was Jake. Yep. Can we do that for us

2867
02:15:55,825 --> 02:15:56,825
Pd?

2868
02:15:56,825 --> 02:15:58,465
Sure, absolutely. So I had maximum building

2869
02:15:58,485 --> 02:15:59,505
and structure height.

2870
02:16:00,725 --> 02:16:03,865
We had the GIS map that had the elevations

2871
02:16:03,885 --> 02:16:06,545
of the properties in the district that was in our packet at,

2872
02:16:06,745 --> 02:16:08,105
I believe that was two or three meetings ago.

2873
02:16:09,125 --> 02:16:11,745
So the average structure, sorry,

2874
02:16:11,885 --> 02:16:13,785
the average property was at 300 feet

2875
02:16:13,785 --> 02:16:15,225
above sea level at its base level.

2876
02:16:15,285 --> 02:16:18,025
And the district, the current ordinance said

2877
02:16:18,025 --> 02:16:21,305
that it was 350 was the maximum for a structure height

2878
02:16:21,845 --> 02:16:23,265
we had heard from the board

2879
02:16:23,265 --> 02:16:25,465
and then from staff that

2880
02:16:25,465 --> 02:16:27,705
that might not be economically feasible for developers

2881
02:16:27,705 --> 02:16:30,040
that we needed to look at potentially expanding upward.

2882
02:16:30,485 --> 02:16:32,565
I looked at some of the towns in the area that had

2883
02:16:33,185 --> 02:16:35,485
the vision for the downtown that you had referenced,

2884
02:16:35,485 --> 02:16:39,285
whether it was conquered, took some pieces from Nashua.

2885
02:16:39,285 --> 02:16:42,565
From Portsmouth. So when I looked at this section,

2886
02:16:42,625 --> 02:16:43,765
you're gonna see it's a little more

2887
02:16:43,815 --> 02:16:45,165
wordy than what we had before.

2888
02:16:45,755 --> 02:16:47,845
I'll go through that piece by piece.

2889
02:16:48,425 --> 02:16:53,005
So it changed the structure height from 350 to 425.

2890
02:16:53,005 --> 02:16:56,845
That allowed for another seven stories been assured

2891
02:16:56,845 --> 02:16:57,845
by the fire department.

2892
02:16:58,745 --> 02:17:01,085
Little link there. I've been assured by the fire department

2893
02:17:01,085 --> 02:17:04,525
that it would meet any of the safety regulations,

2894
02:17:05,125 --> 02:17:07,605
the fire code and our ladder truck is able

2895
02:17:07,605 --> 02:17:10,005
to deal with that building.

2896
02:17:11,925 --> 02:17:14,605
I put in here a section on performance and design standards.

2897
02:17:14,685 --> 02:17:19,045
I took that from Concord to preserve a street scape

2898
02:17:19,045 --> 02:17:20,885
and make sure that nobody was intimidated

2899
02:17:20,885 --> 02:17:23,365
by a giant structure.

2900
02:17:24,985 --> 02:17:26,805
Any building that's above six stories

2901
02:17:27,585 --> 02:17:31,205
or 65 feet above the finished grade had

2902
02:17:31,205 --> 02:17:32,845
to be set back by 10 feet.

2903
02:17:33,155 --> 02:17:36,405
What that allowed for is maybe a walkway

2904
02:17:36,425 --> 02:17:38,485
or a path on the higher levels,

2905
02:17:38,765 --> 02:17:40,285
a rooftop bar or something like that.

2906
02:17:42,185 --> 02:17:45,205
But it really prevented people on the street level from

2907
02:17:45,205 --> 02:17:46,725
being intimidated by a bigger building.

2908
02:17:47,665 --> 02:17:50,845
So that's in section B that you have there in section A.

2909
02:17:50,965 --> 02:17:53,245
I took this one, this was from Portsmouth

2910
02:17:53,245 --> 02:17:55,045
and London Dairy had similar language as well,

2911
02:17:55,725 --> 02:17:58,485
that non habitable architectural features

2912
02:17:58,485 --> 02:18:00,125
and appendages could exceed that limit.

2913
02:18:00,425 --> 02:18:01,845
That's clock towers

2914
02:18:01,945 --> 02:18:05,765
or just different design features to break it up so

2915
02:18:05,765 --> 02:18:08,165
that you're not having just a flat roofed large building.

2916
02:18:09,745 --> 02:18:12,045
We already have similar language in our ordinance

2917
02:18:12,105 --> 02:18:14,165
for other areas in town that said

2918
02:18:14,165 --> 02:18:16,685
that you can't have just a flat roof.

2919
02:18:17,185 --> 02:18:19,405
And then one thing that had been mentioned at some

2920
02:18:19,405 --> 02:18:20,405
of our other meetings

2921
02:18:20,405 --> 02:18:22,445
and on our site walk as well is

2922
02:18:22,445 --> 02:18:26,045
that there was no appetite really for just exposed hvac that

2923
02:18:26,045 --> 02:18:29,525
that really, I'm not sure the word to to use here,

2924
02:18:29,785 --> 02:18:31,485
but it really degrades the experience

2925
02:18:31,485 --> 02:18:32,765
of people living downtown,

2926
02:18:32,765 --> 02:18:34,365
walking downtown or working there.

2927
02:18:35,105 --> 02:18:37,005
So there's a section in there that all HVAC

2928
02:18:37,185 --> 02:18:39,725
and exterior equipment would need to be screened.

2929
02:18:42,105 --> 02:18:43,845
So I mean, I like this

2930
02:18:45,235 --> 02:18:47,485
from an organizational perspective.

2931
02:18:48,085 --> 02:18:50,125
I noticed that there's some stuff in here that has

2932
02:18:50,125 --> 02:18:52,125
to actually do with building heights

2933
02:18:52,705 --> 02:18:56,005
and some of it has to do with architectural design.

2934
02:18:56,675 --> 02:19:00,085
Related to that, we have a whole architectural

2935
02:19:00,085 --> 02:19:01,765
design ordinance.

2936
02:19:01,825 --> 02:19:04,645
And I know that in the neighborhood commercial district,

2937
02:19:05,265 --> 02:19:08,285
we had a, a separate section that said,

2938
02:19:09,825 --> 02:19:12,845
in addition to the architectural design,

2939
02:19:15,935 --> 02:19:20,205
Chuck itself, these additional considerations shall apply

2940
02:19:20,345 --> 02:19:21,845
for this district.

2941
02:19:23,545 --> 02:19:25,805
My recommendation is to pull

2942
02:19:25,805 --> 02:19:28,565
that out from the section on building height,

2943
02:19:29,325 --> 02:19:31,965
structure height, and have it at, to be a supplemental

2944
02:19:32,605 --> 02:19:35,645
architectural design requirements so

2945
02:19:35,645 --> 02:19:37,085
that we're not mixing heights

2946
02:19:37,225 --> 02:19:39,445
and you know, building features.

2947
02:19:39,925 --> 02:19:41,965
Absolutely. But I mean it all makes sense.

2948
02:19:44,795 --> 02:19:45,885
Okay. We can do that.

2949
02:19:47,105 --> 02:19:50,605
So we'll add similar language, you know, refer everyone back

2950
02:19:50,605 --> 02:19:52,245
to the architectural design regs

2951
02:19:52,245 --> 02:19:53,325
and then move this into that.

2952
02:19:55,315 --> 02:19:56,315
Okay.

2953
02:19:57,785 --> 02:20:01,085
Is, is this percentage in the parentheses here at the end

2954
02:20:01,085 --> 02:20:06,005
of six A, is that supposed to match the 15% written

2955
02:20:06,145 --> 02:20:07,445
or am I misunderstanding that

2956
02:20:07,455 --> 02:20:09,405
There was a typo from two different versions that

2957
02:20:09,405 --> 02:20:10,405
We had in there.

2958
02:20:10,405 --> 02:20:11,445
Okay. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't

2959
02:20:11,605 --> 02:20:12,765
misunderstanding what it was saying.

2960
02:20:13,025 --> 02:20:14,085
Oh, great catch. Absolutely.

2961
02:20:14,085 --> 02:20:17,885
Alright. So 15 or 33. It was 33. Thank you.

2962
02:20:27,165 --> 02:20:28,175
Okay. Okay.

2963
02:20:28,315 --> 02:20:32,255
And then one last question, just going back to parking again

2964
02:20:32,255 --> 02:20:35,055
that highlighted we're we're gonna take out or into the lot.

2965
02:20:36,645 --> 02:20:39,255
Yeah, I, okay. I had no idea where that came from.

2966
02:20:39,415 --> 02:20:42,375
I just neither stole the language, so I stole it in, in, in,

2967
02:20:42,375 --> 02:20:44,855
in its entirety, but didn't make sense to me.

2968
02:20:45,405 --> 02:20:49,135
Okay. Perfect. And I think that's everything.

2969
02:20:49,415 --> 02:20:51,775
I have a question. I mean, I don't want to keep us here

2970
02:20:51,775 --> 02:20:54,175
and I don't want to, well I'm jumping back

2971
02:20:54,235 --> 02:20:58,215
to the street scape discussion with the yard depths just

2972
02:20:58,215 --> 02:21:00,455
for, it's a question to put out for thought.

2973
02:21:00,635 --> 02:21:05,335
Is there any precedent for establishing a, I don't know

2974
02:21:05,335 --> 02:21:07,255
what you would call it, but like a facade line?

2975
02:21:07,965 --> 02:21:12,575
Like if, if the intent is to get rid of the saw tooth, maybe

2976
02:21:12,995 --> 02:21:15,695
for certain streets, we make a target line

2977
02:21:15,695 --> 02:21:17,775
and it's like that's any new

2978
02:21:17,775 --> 02:21:19,015
development, that's where it goes.

2979
02:21:19,885 --> 02:21:24,055
Well, sure, I mean I, I I just refer to the TBOD

2980
02:21:25,675 --> 02:21:30,375
in that entire district, the maximum front yard setback

2981
02:21:30,965 --> 02:21:33,455
from the lot line is zero feet. Right.

2982
02:21:33,675 --> 02:21:37,015
That's just CB. Yes. That's in the, in the TBOD

2983
02:21:39,545 --> 02:21:40,545
Cvs.

2984
02:21:40,545 --> 02:21:44,045
Which in all honesty, after c

2985
02:21:44,145 --> 02:21:45,765
and i like CVS, don't get me wrong,

2986
02:21:46,235 --> 02:21:48,525
parking is not the greatest in and

2987
02:21:48,525 --> 02:21:49,525
Out there.

2988
02:21:49,525 --> 02:21:50,205
Well that's, yeah. So

2989
02:21:50,265 --> 02:21:53,365
If anything, you know, we, we worried shortsighted front

2990
02:21:53,365 --> 02:21:56,565
that one, but the old town hall was there.

2991
02:21:56,865 --> 02:21:59,645
I'm trying to remember, was the old town hall zero front?

2992
02:22:00,025 --> 02:22:01,445
Yes. Zero Two. Yeah. Yeah.

2993
02:22:01,665 --> 02:22:03,005
The parking was to the side. The

2994
02:22:03,005 --> 02:22:07,085
Problem is the CVS is maybe a little bit too intense

2995
02:22:07,085 --> 02:22:08,445
to use for that lot size.

2996
02:22:09,075 --> 02:22:10,285
Well, I don't know if you,

2997
02:22:10,285 --> 02:22:11,485
have you gone to this one in London?

2998
02:22:11,485 --> 02:22:14,125
Dairy? Our parking, the,

2999
02:22:14,305 --> 02:22:16,485
the parking at our CVS is a dream compared

3000
02:22:16,485 --> 02:22:17,645
to the CVS in London dairy.

3001
02:22:17,755 --> 02:22:20,885
Okay. Well anyway, so to address your point, Mr.

3002
02:22:20,885 --> 02:22:25,125
Fisherman, yes. We have a precedent for enforcing a, a

3003
02:22:25,725 --> 02:22:29,125
a hundred percent conformity of the streetscape.

3004
02:22:29,125 --> 02:22:33,825
In other words, traveling on Elm Street

3005
02:22:34,165 --> 02:22:37,305
in, in Manchester or or Main Street in Nashua.

3006
02:22:37,365 --> 02:22:40,625
I'm not aware of maybe other than a few, couple exceptions.

3007
02:22:40,625 --> 02:22:42,865
Everything is up to the sidewalk. Yeah.

3008
02:22:43,085 --> 02:22:45,265
Now the sidewalks are maybe a little wider

3009
02:22:45,285 --> 02:22:46,385
and the streets are a little wider,

3010
02:22:46,525 --> 02:22:47,865
but everything's up to the sidewalk

3011
02:22:48,215 --> 02:22:51,385
because it's, it's a pedestrian friendly environment.

3012
02:22:51,385 --> 02:22:53,305
You get the big windows, you can see people,

3013
02:22:53,525 --> 02:22:54,545
you know, having a good time.

3014
02:22:54,605 --> 02:22:59,105
You walk by the, the thing that broke that

3015
02:23:00,245 --> 02:23:03,345
is the, the CUBIES mini strip mall.

3016
02:23:03,445 --> 02:23:07,425
And of course that predated the TBOD regulations.

3017
02:23:08,575 --> 02:23:11,625
That was the kind of, maybe the emphasis for Yeah.

3018
02:23:11,895 --> 02:23:13,505
That one. That's what We didn't want.

3019
02:23:13,595 --> 02:23:16,745
Right. And that one, and across the street from, if you,

3020
02:23:16,805 --> 02:23:20,185
you must remember Mr. Nelson across the street there was

3021
02:23:20,995 --> 02:23:24,785
where the, what is it, super cuts

3022
02:23:24,785 --> 02:23:26,065
or whatever it is over there now that,

3023
02:23:26,065 --> 02:23:28,225
that little mall over there that used

3024
02:23:28,225 --> 02:23:30,105
to be three triple deckers all mixed use

3025
02:23:30,715 --> 02:23:31,785
right on the sidewalk.

3026
02:23:32,165 --> 02:23:33,985
And they tore those down and they put that in there.

3027
02:23:34,065 --> 02:23:35,265
I think Comey's was the start of it.

3028
02:23:35,265 --> 02:23:36,425
And that one was the last straw.

3029
02:23:36,765 --> 02:23:40,345
That's when the TBOD was when S was first.

3030
02:23:40,345 --> 02:23:41,505
That one was second. And then,

3031
02:23:41,565 --> 02:23:44,145
and then the board at the time said, enough is enough.

3032
02:23:44,525 --> 02:23:46,025
And the TBOD came in. So we,

3033
02:23:46,205 --> 02:23:49,825
We did attempt in the existing regulation to maintain

3034
02:23:50,995 --> 02:23:52,905
uniformity with the eight foot,

3035
02:23:54,475 --> 02:23:58,305
which has more leeway than the zero foot in the TBOD.

3036
02:23:58,425 --> 02:24:00,545
'cause we figured in the outer ring we

3037
02:24:01,475 --> 02:24:03,425
could be less stringent.

3038
02:24:03,435 --> 02:24:07,505
Right. But we have been requested

3039
02:24:08,285 --> 02:24:09,745
to make it more flexible.

3040
02:24:11,125 --> 02:24:13,185
And so we're trying to honor that request

3041
02:24:13,245 --> 02:24:14,785
and it's, it's sort of a force fit

3042
02:24:16,175 --> 02:24:19,865
because all that flexibility does not really comport

3043
02:24:19,865 --> 02:24:23,625
with the, the goal of having the consistent street scape.

3044
02:24:23,625 --> 02:24:24,625
And so we're, we're trying,

3045
02:24:24,635 --> 02:24:25,665
we're trying to work around that.

3046
02:24:30,115 --> 02:24:33,015
Now, personally, given that we're not allowing

3047
02:24:33,605 --> 02:24:35,135
parking in front of the buildings,

3048
02:24:36,215 --> 02:24:38,775
I don't see any great harm in just leaving it at eight feet.

3049
02:24:38,775 --> 02:24:40,615
But that, that's, that's just my opinion.

3050
02:24:42,735 --> 02:24:45,415
I agree with that opinion. Okay.

3051
02:24:49,535 --> 02:24:51,615
'cause as I've said several times, if it's not parking

3052
02:24:52,115 --> 02:24:55,535
and it's not a couple of picnic tables, I can't imagine

3053
02:24:55,565 --> 02:24:57,575
what a developer's gonna wanna do with that.

3054
02:24:59,005 --> 02:25:00,895
Well And greater than eight foot front yard.

3055
02:25:01,205 --> 02:25:03,815
Yeah. And, you know, we bring suggestions to the board

3056
02:25:03,815 --> 02:25:06,895
and if the board doesn't feel they're good suggestions

3057
02:25:07,075 --> 02:25:10,375
or they don't find merit in them, you don't have to, you,

3058
02:25:10,435 --> 02:25:13,215
you, it can be what It's the board's decision.

3059
02:25:13,845 --> 02:25:15,335
Well, yes,

3060
02:25:15,395 --> 02:25:16,855
but it also needs to reflect the

3061
02:25:16,855 --> 02:25:18,095
community consensus and values.

3062
02:25:18,845 --> 02:25:23,205
Yeah. And it has to be such that the kind

3063
02:25:23,205 --> 02:25:25,725
of economic development that we'd like to see can happen.

3064
02:25:25,905 --> 02:25:27,445
So we, we we're trying

3065
02:25:27,445 --> 02:25:30,605
to serve multiple requirements at the same time.

3066
02:25:31,355 --> 02:25:34,455
Yeah. Okay.

3067
02:25:36,165 --> 02:25:37,775
I'll keep thinking. Alright.

3068
02:25:37,995 --> 02:25:40,855
So I don't know if you have a better idea on

3069
02:25:40,855 --> 02:25:42,215
how to stage that.

3070
02:25:42,305 --> 02:25:44,655
Right. I'm all open to, I mean,

3071
02:25:44,655 --> 02:25:46,015
this was the best I could come up with.

3072
02:25:47,835 --> 02:25:52,355
I, I won't admit it, I won't suggest that it's optimal,

3073
02:25:53,155 --> 02:25:54,495
but it was what I can figure out,

3074
02:25:59,695 --> 02:26:01,625
Nothing's coming to mind at the moment. But also

3075
02:26:02,205 --> 02:26:05,945
The other thing we can do is at the risk

3076
02:26:05,945 --> 02:26:08,705
of potentially spot zoning, we could take some

3077
02:26:08,705 --> 02:26:12,585
of the bigger parcels over in the Sawyer court area,

3078
02:26:12,765 --> 02:26:17,425
you know, where the automotive in industrial places are,

3079
02:26:17,425 --> 02:26:19,825
where it's kind of a different streetscape

3080
02:26:20,445 --> 02:26:22,905
and make that a, a subject to different rules.

3081
02:26:25,745 --> 02:26:26,865
'cause we're, we're trying to come up with rules

3082
02:26:26,865 --> 02:26:28,745
that fit the higher, the whole district

3083
02:26:29,165 --> 02:26:31,465
and the lot size is vary widely.

3084
02:26:32,995 --> 02:26:37,585
Right. Is that something an overlay would do?

3085
02:26:39,415 --> 02:26:41,105
Yeah. I mean, we could make it an overlay.

3086
02:26:41,665 --> 02:26:42,985
We could make it another district.

3087
02:26:43,025 --> 02:26:45,145
I, I don't know how small a district can be

3088
02:26:45,145 --> 02:26:46,465
before it becomes problematic.

3089
02:26:47,125 --> 02:26:50,345
But I mean, if, if you have an area of, of the town

3090
02:26:50,345 --> 02:26:52,185
where the existing pattern

3091
02:26:52,245 --> 02:26:54,305
of development is substantially different than another,

3092
02:26:54,785 --> 02:26:57,185
I don't know whether it's a really a

3093
02:26:57,185 --> 02:26:58,625
problem to do either of those things. But

3094
02:26:59,105 --> 02:27:01,025
I think the overlay would be the easier if we,

3095
02:27:01,045 --> 02:27:04,945
if we determined that there was an area big enough

3096
02:27:04,945 --> 02:27:07,245
for an overlay, but too small

3097
02:27:07,245 --> 02:27:09,285
for a separate district. I mean, overlay is the way

3098
02:27:09,285 --> 02:27:10,285
To go.

3099
02:27:10,285 --> 02:27:12,725
We believe that the eight foot for the CBD

3100
02:27:12,725 --> 02:27:17,125
and then create a CBD overlay CBDO and,

3101
02:27:17,305 --> 02:27:19,885
and that one would be the larger lots.

3102
02:27:19,885 --> 02:27:22,925
And there we, you know, allow more setbacks. I don't know.

3103
02:27:22,985 --> 02:27:25,725
No, it needs, it needs some more studying I think.

3104
02:27:27,075 --> 02:27:29,925
Well that's the thing with zoning is the hardest part is

3105
02:27:30,445 --> 02:27:32,565
envisioning all the unintended consequences.

3106
02:27:33,835 --> 02:27:34,125
Yeah.

3107
02:27:38,745 --> 02:27:40,405
So I'm happy with

3108
02:27:41,075 --> 02:27:43,005
closing the fourth workshop at this point.

3109
02:27:43,025 --> 02:27:46,285
If everyone thinks we've gotten all the ideas out and you're

3110
02:27:46,715 --> 02:27:47,715
Okay.

3111
02:27:47,715 --> 02:27:51,765
Kind, frazzled if you want

3112
02:27:51,765 --> 02:27:53,125
to keep, when would you like working on it?

3113
02:27:53,185 --> 02:27:54,325
I'm happy to do that too. 'cause we,

3114
02:27:54,425 --> 02:27:55,805
we have technically till 10,

3115
02:28:00,425 --> 02:28:03,805
I'm happy to take it away and make, update the changes.

3116
02:28:03,995 --> 02:28:06,845
Yeah. And bring it back for a fifth workshop.

3117
02:28:06,995 --> 02:28:08,525
When, when would you like to have that?

3118
02:28:09,395 --> 02:28:14,285
Yeah, think on it. I mean, let's think on whether

3119
02:28:15,425 --> 02:28:16,725
trying to come up with one formula

3120
02:28:16,835 --> 02:28:18,885
that fits the whole district is the right thing.

3121
02:28:19,225 --> 02:28:22,285
Or whether maybe creating an overlay that

3122
02:28:23,125 --> 02:28:25,565
recognizes the differences in development patterns in,

3123
02:28:25,565 --> 02:28:27,565
in lot sizes is the better way.

3124
02:28:29,405 --> 02:28:31,405
I mean, from the outset, I'm more comfortable with that.

3125
02:28:32,265 --> 02:28:35,125
My biggest takeaway from the, the site, the,

3126
02:28:35,125 --> 02:28:36,645
the district walk was just how

3127
02:28:37,435 --> 02:28:39,965
disparate different areas were.

3128
02:28:40,385 --> 02:28:42,085
And, and I, I felt that at the time,

3129
02:28:42,115 --> 02:28:44,685
it's gonna be really hard to do a one size fits all here.

3130
02:28:45,385 --> 02:28:48,885
So maybe we could do another little map, figure out where,

3131
02:28:48,885 --> 02:28:51,125
where those larger lots are, where it would make sense.

3132
02:28:51,745 --> 02:28:55,165
And then take the kinda language that we have proposed

3133
02:28:55,195 --> 02:28:58,285
that I proposed in terms of, of where you could do the, the,

3134
02:28:58,305 --> 02:28:59,405
the bigger setback

3135
02:28:59,405 --> 02:29:02,405
and just make that flexibility in that overlay district.

3136
02:29:04,705 --> 02:29:05,965
That's, that's another idea

3137
02:29:07,105 --> 02:29:09,965
Is, is it possible to make a GIS map

3138
02:29:09,965 --> 02:29:12,605
that puts like a text label for like the frontage

3139
02:29:12,825 --> 02:29:14,605
of each lot or something like that?

3140
02:29:15,345 --> 02:29:18,965
We don't, we don't capture that in our GIS unfortunately.

3141
02:29:19,325 --> 02:29:20,885
'cause that would've made it so much easier

3142
02:29:20,955 --> 02:29:22,885
because I could have just labeled it

3143
02:29:22,985 --> 02:29:26,005
and then, you know, done a formula for it.

3144
02:29:26,005 --> 02:29:27,485
But I wasn't, we're not able to do

3145
02:29:27,485 --> 02:29:29,045
that in our, with our current system.

3146
02:29:29,755 --> 02:29:32,045
Well I, I think, I think it's part CAD system.

3147
02:29:32,145 --> 02:29:35,645
So you, you can actually, you know, point A, point B,

3148
02:29:35,645 --> 02:29:37,805
have it, calculate the distance between them.

3149
02:29:38,665 --> 02:29:42,405
But that may, that may be more advanced than

3150
02:29:42,915 --> 02:29:43,915
Yeah.

3151
02:29:43,915 --> 02:29:44,445
And then Yeah. And then trying

3152
02:29:44,445 --> 02:29:47,925
to translate it into the actual ESRI system from ours.

3153
02:29:48,235 --> 02:29:50,085
Yeah, that's a little bit, yeah,

3154
02:29:50,085 --> 02:29:51,085
that's a little more advanced.

3155
02:29:51,365 --> 02:29:53,045
I mean, we're still using arc GIS right?

3156
02:29:53,385 --> 02:29:55,245
Arc GIS Pro. Yeah.

3157
02:29:55,985 --> 02:29:59,605
Yep. Okay. Because it used to be that I had a laptop,

3158
02:29:59,945 --> 02:30:01,925
my own laptop at, at these meetings

3159
02:30:02,225 --> 02:30:05,205
and Doug gave me a copy of the town's GIS database.

3160
02:30:05,265 --> 02:30:07,325
And then I would like do all those queries.

3161
02:30:07,325 --> 02:30:08,365
We bring everything up we can Yeah.

3162
02:30:08,365 --> 02:30:10,925
And that's what I, I mean the d the GIS database

3163
02:30:10,925 --> 02:30:14,285
that is online, we absolutely, it's got a measurement thing.

3164
02:30:14,285 --> 02:30:17,165
And I mean that's how I calculated the, the distances

3165
02:30:17,165 --> 02:30:19,365
for those, you know, I, I sat and I measured them

3166
02:30:19,425 --> 02:30:20,605
and just wrote it on my

3167
02:30:20,605 --> 02:30:21,605
Hand up.

3168
02:30:21,605 --> 02:30:22,045
Yeah. I think there are differences in the capabilities

3169
02:30:22,065 --> 02:30:23,725
of the online web one

3170
02:30:23,985 --> 02:30:26,925
And then the actual GIS pro where we create these,

3171
02:30:27,185 --> 02:30:28,285
you know, layouts

3172
02:30:28,285 --> 02:30:31,285
and things that we bring to the meeting's. Such a different thing. I had

3173
02:30:31,705 --> 02:30:33,285
An executable on my hard disk.

3174
02:30:33,285 --> 02:30:35,405
Yeah. It wa it wasn't a web thing. Yeah.

3175
02:30:36,265 --> 02:30:37,285
But that was years ago, so.

3176
02:30:37,785 --> 02:30:42,215
Yep. But I think that would help, you know,

3177
02:30:42,485 --> 02:30:45,215
it's a great tool to visualize these sort of things.

3178
02:30:45,215 --> 02:30:46,735
So if we could take advantage of that, that'd be great.

3179
02:30:51,725 --> 02:30:55,655
Okay. Is everyone satisfied? Done for the night?

3180
02:30:56,755 --> 02:31:00,215
Yes. Yes. Okay. I think we made some progress.

3181
02:31:00,595 --> 02:31:02,975
We did. Thank you. Thank you for all the help. More

3182
02:31:02,975 --> 02:31:03,975
Robert comments?

3183
02:31:04,935 --> 02:31:09,855
I Motion to adjourn?

3184
02:31:10,315 --> 02:31:13,455
Yes. So move second. Alright. Move by O'Connor.

3185
02:31:13,455 --> 02:31:16,135
Second by Mali. Adjourn. All in favor say aye. Aye.

3186
02:31:16,675 --> 02:31:18,015
For adjourned. Thank you guys.