[0:02] Okay.
[0:02] Good evening ladies and gentlemen.
[0:04] Welcome to the zoning Board of Adjustment.
[0:05] Please rise for the pledge of Allegiance,
[0:10] P of Allegiance two, the United States of America
[0:13] to the Republic for which stands under God in his role.
[0:18] Liberty Justice for all.
[0:21] Alright, and good evening to everybody.
[0:24] Please shut off all cell phones, iPhones,
[0:27] any electronic gadgets that could create a distraction
[0:30] of the proceedings in the event of an emergency.
[0:33] Please exit to the rear of the room.
[0:35] Do not use the elevator.
[0:36] These proceedings are audio video recorded
[0:40] and scheduled to end at 10:00 PM That being said,
[0:44] let's start with, continue
[0:46] with introductions from the board. Tell my left,
[0:50] My name's Brent LaSow, Michael Donlin, Richard Trip,
[0:54] Lynn Perkins, chair Craig
[0:56] Corbett, vice Chair Gas Biba, Jim Dietzel,
[1:00] And we have code enforcement.
[1:01] All the way down to the right. It's Kerry Owen,
[1:03] and our clerk is Eileen Boudreaux.
[1:06] Got your name this time. And
[1:11] so without any further hesitation, let's move on.
[1:15] The first case is 20 dash 12 three.
[1:20] Mr. Omba, would you sit on this, please?
[1:24] Yes, Mr. Chair. All right, thank you.
[1:27] This is a request for extension from
[1:31] representing the ney
[1:33] Point of order.
[1:34] Mr. Chair. I am a permanent member
[1:37] now we still only have four.
[1:40] Mr. Dietzel. Excuse me, sir,
[1:42] we still only have four members election.
[1:45] What's your point? I just wanted to, well, I wanted
[1:47] to clarify that I was on this.
[1:49] I forgot that we had four. Congratulations. Oh, thank you.
[1:53] You good? Thank you. I'm good, thank you. All right.
[1:55] Thank you Mr. Chair. Good enough.
[1:59] Promised land survey representing the Steven
[2:02] and Shannon Ney.
[2:06] This is a request for an extension.
[2:10] I'm gonna zip over to Ms. Owen.
[2:14] You refer, do you recall the, well, actually,
[2:18] let me back up for a second.
[2:19] 'cause we just, I just got a notice.
[2:22] Ms. Owen and I were speaking of this, just anybody here
[2:24] for two Scottish Way, which is case number 26 dash 1 0 6.
[2:29] That case is not being heard tonight.
[2:31] Sorry, the extension for variances, not
[2:36] remembering it right offhand,
[2:37] but we have given two extensions on this statute says two
[2:42] year one, two year extension.
[2:43] Am I correct? Correct.
[2:44] Two year. All right.
[2:47] So anything else from staff on
[2:49] that you wish to share with us?
[2:51] No, we, we've kind of reviewed this on a conceptual level
[2:57] a few weeks ago or so, maybe a month ago or so.
[2:59] And the applicant had seems to be going in the,
[3:03] in the direction that will meet our regulations.
[3:06] So I think it's an it, it comes before us today
[3:11] and is moving forward in the TRC process.
[3:16] So, so they are in that process now.
[3:18] We have it scheduled, I believe
[3:21] is it next Friday the 10th, the 17th.
[3:24] All right. April 17th
[3:25] In the immediate foreseeable future. Correct.
[3:27] In Two weeks. Is this, is this a
[3:28] requiring planning board review?
[3:30] Yes, it will. Alright, And where are they at in this?
[3:33] So this is a subdivision. Okay.
[3:37] At five for land.
[3:42] Sorry for jumping around.
[3:44] Been a lot of things jumping out at us all week. Right?
[3:51] Oh, sorry. You're looking for more information.
[3:53] So the original ask, so there, there's
[3:57] an existing duplex on the property.
[3:58] They're looking to subdivide to add a second lot
[4:01] with a proposed duplex.
[4:03] And that's scheduled for planning as well.
[4:05] That will move from TRC to planning? Correct. Alright,
[4:08] Very good.
[4:09] I would say that if neither of those were the case,
[4:12] I would have voted to suspend the variance or,
[4:16] or not grant the extension.
[4:18] Thank you for that input. My feelings were just expressed.
[4:23] Anybody else have anything they wish to add here
[4:25] or question regarding this first case? No,
[4:29] It seems, it seems like a fair request with the
[4:33] uncertainty currently at play.
[4:34] Okay, Mr. Omba? I'm all set. All right. Mr.
[4:38] Trip, you all right with an extension? Sure.
[4:43] Okay. Alright, very good.
[4:47] Let's read a motion there.
[4:48] Would you like to read the motion Mr.
[4:50] Trip or would you like me to?
[4:52] I'll read the motion. Alright,
[4:53] Good enough.
[4:54] Thank you.
[4:59] Are we ready? Go ahead.
[5:01] I make a motion on case number 20 dash 1 23
[5:05] to grant a variance extension for Steven
[5:07] and Shannon Vadney ney five Fernand
[5:12] Fernand Drive as allowed per state statute
[5:16] parcel number ID 3 1 0 1 7 dash zero
[5:21] one dash 0 0 2.
[5:23] Zone MHR two.
[5:27] All right. Very good. Mr. Cor,
[5:28] I need a second.
[5:29] I'll second That. Thank you Mr. Rou. Mr.
[5:32] Corbe, you have a finding fact established for this.
[5:35] I know it's so out of the ordinary, right?
[5:40] Finding a fact for case
[5:43] 20 dash 1 23.
[5:45] The request for extension board found that due to
[5:48] there have previously been two, two year extensions granted
[5:51] for this variance that was originally granted on
[5:53] June 4th, 2020, granting relief from the terms
[5:56] of Article six, section 1 65 dash 45 1A
[6:00] to allow the construction of a two-family dwelling
[6:02] after the subdivision of the subject property within the M
[6:05] HDR two zoning district.
[6:07] Due to feedback with the town staff
[6:10] and at the TRC review, it has been recommended
[6:13] for an extension to place this on hold for the time being.
[6:17] Does the board have any addendums
[6:18] or additions to make to this?
[6:21] Seeing none. All right.
[6:23] All in favor moving this for a vote. All thank you
[6:32] sheet.
[6:33] There we go. All right. Mr. Bumba? Yes.
[6:38] Mr. Trip? Yes. Mr. Corbet? Yes. Who would I, Mr.
[6:43] Dietzel? Yes. And the CH chair will make that unanimous.
[6:47] So extension is granted.
[6:49] All right, next up we have
[6:55] case number 26 dash 1 0 5 motion for re-hearing,
[7:01] referencing the draft minutes.
[7:04] I'm not prepared to vote on this.
[7:07] We, the board is accepting the application for rehearing
[7:13] without a, a decisive yes or no this evening.
[7:16] So I need a motion to table that
[7:21] to the next scheduled meeting.
[7:23] So moved. Thank you. Second. Seconded by Mr. Donlin.
[7:29] All in favor of that motion say aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed?
[7:33] Hearing none. So we'll hear that, that motion
[7:36] for rehearing decide at the next meeting is Owen.
[7:40] Okay. Next up we have
[7:44] case number 26 dash 1 0 7, which is Byrd Enterprises,
[7:49] LLC Jay Yako, dually authorized
[7:54] and representation here.
[7:56] Very good. Gentlemen, come right up.
[8:02] Thank you very much Mr. Chair.
[8:03] Greetings of the Honorable Board.
[8:06] Just remind me of your name if you would.
[8:09] Yes, my name is Christopher Drescher.
[8:11] I am an attorney with Cronin Bis and Zelinsky.
[8:15] John Cronin had a family thing he couldn't get out
[8:17] of tonight, so I'm pinch hitting tonight.
[8:20] Alright, well welcome. What we ask for protocol is just
[8:23] that you read the five criteria.
[8:25] Yep. And then the floor is yours to
[8:29] go about how you'd like. Great,
[8:30] Well thank you very much.
[8:31] I'll just give a a brief in introduction again.
[8:34] I'm Chris Drescher and I'm here on behalf
[8:36] of Bird Enterprises LLC.
[8:37] With me tonight is the human behind
[8:39] that corporate entity Jay Eneco.
[8:41] The address at issue is 1 8 7 Hempstead Road,
[8:45] Hempstead Road, excuse me.
[8:46] In New Hampshire, the requested relief is a variance from
[8:49] dairy zoning ordinance Article 12
[8:54] Roman 12, section 1 65 dash 1 0 1 0.1.
[8:58] For the record, the property itself is 8.76 acres.
[9:03] It's in the low medium density residential district.
[9:07] It's known as having a former vacant Catholic church there
[9:11] and has sat empty since 2020.
[9:14] Mr. Dreher? Yes. Could I pause you for just one second Mr.
[9:16] Donlin, would you sit on this please? Yes sir.
[9:18] Alright, I'm sorry I didn't mean
[9:20] To break.
[9:21] No problem at all, Mr. Chair.
[9:21] Well, no, it's quite all right.
[9:24] So from 2020 to 2025,
[9:26] there were few attempts to make use of this property.
[9:28] None of them were successful,
[9:29] but in January 25, the applicant purchased the property
[9:32] with the intent of redeveloping it with two businesses.
[9:34] The first business is a sports education facility
[9:37] for youth athletes.
[9:39] Primary focus is baseball.
[9:42] But I'd like to make a a point
[9:43] to put an emphasis on the educational piece of that.
[9:47] The other use is the that of a nursery
[9:49] and a landscaping business.
[9:52] The applicant tends to
[9:54] relocate established businesses from Wyndham to dairy.
[9:59] Historically, they used to call it the church.
[10:01] For what that's worth, this property is considerably larger
[10:05] than any of the other surrounding lots in the area.
[10:08] And that's probably giving this property its most
[10:10] distinguishable characteristic.
[10:11] The only other property in that area
[10:13] that comes close is a five acre lot at one
[10:15] 90 Hampstead Road.
[10:16] Otherwise, every other lot in the immediate area is roughly
[10:19] three, 3.5 acres or so or or less.
[10:22] And we did attach a tax map, if I'm not mistaken
[10:24] to the application, where you can see that for yourself.
[10:29] It's a commercial use on this,
[10:30] on this lot and it is allowed.
[10:32] So we need some adequate signage so that folks
[10:35] that are trying to find this property by car can find it.
[10:39] This two business set up
[10:40] that they're gonna have there is quite unique
[10:41] and it lends itself to a a, a good use there
[10:44] that's gonna bring some jobs and property tax and business.
[10:47] And as with any business, you need a sign.
[10:49] Now the only signs that your ordinance allows are
[10:53] for residential properties.
[10:55] When I read that section of the ordinance,
[10:56] it looks like it's three square feet
[10:58] and you're allowed your name and address,
[10:59] which is, I dunno, essentially a mailbox.
[11:02] And then if you have a home occupation, you can have,
[11:05] you know, some, some other small signage.
[11:07] But it simply does not allow for commercial signage.
[11:12] Although the applicant's use is allowed strict conformance
[11:14] with your ordinance would not allow for any kind
[11:17] of logical commercial type signage.
[11:20] And that is why we are here for relief.
[11:22] Now, as we all know, the applicant was already here
[11:26] last summer asking for a variance
[11:28] for this very matter back in 2025.
[11:31] And that sign included an electronic reader
[11:36] component to it.
[11:38] Now this ZBA did grant
[11:40] that variance, I believe three to two.
[11:43] It was ultimately reversed by the superior court.
[11:46] Now, in light of that court's decision,
[11:48] what the applicant has tried to do is materially
[11:50] change the circumstances so that we can come back here
[11:54] and try and do this again under different circumstances.
[11:56] And what he has done is he's removed that reader board.
[11:59] It seemed that the reader board was certainly the central
[12:03] point of the court's analysis as well as a lot
[12:05] of the opposition to the sign.
[12:07] So he's taken that off and,
[12:12] and we have a, a typical pylon that is in,
[12:14] in the application that you can see for yourself.
[12:17] And once I'm done with the five criteria,
[12:19] I have the applicant here to answer any
[12:20] technical questions about that sign.
[12:22] So with those elements, the variance will not be contrary
[12:25] to the public interest because, well the lawful,
[12:28] the legal standard for this prong
[12:31] is if you grant the variance, will it one
[12:34] alter the essential character of the neighborhood
[12:37] or two negatively impact the health, safety
[12:41] and welfare of the public.
[12:44] And I always like to throw in the same case that cites
[12:47] that also says, you know, mere conflict with the ordinance
[12:51] is insufficient as all.
[12:53] Or you know, all variances are gonna be somewhat
[12:55] averse to an ordinance.
[12:57] I always like to make that point.
[12:58] I also like to make this point too with prong one,
[13:02] the variance will not be contrary to public interest.
[13:04] Well that's in the negative, right?
[13:06] So we don't have to prove it's in the public interest, just
[13:08] that it's not contrary to the public interest.
[13:11] So what the applicant is trying to do here is to seek
[13:14] to reuse an existing building
[13:15] that was once a Catholic church,
[13:17] the proposed use in the zone is allowed.
[13:20] And the only variance that we need
[13:21] and we're asking for is to allow for this sign.
[13:25] A sign is customary addition to any business.
[13:28] Now we don't contend
[13:29] that this pylon sign is gonna overburden the property
[13:32] or the character of the neighborhood as this.
[13:35] There's always been a non-residential use at this
[13:40] property and the church itself had a sign when it was there.
[13:43] So it's kind of always been a sign present there.
[13:47] More importantly though, this lot is over eight acres
[13:50] and the size of the sign that we're proposing here seems
[13:55] to be logical and appropriate for the size of the lot.
[13:59] Secondly, it's worth mentioning that the business
[14:03] that's gonna be there, that one of the businesses
[14:05] for the sign is this baseball school.
[14:08] Right? So emphasis again on school,
[14:11] I've never seen a school that didn't have a sign.
[14:14] And secondly here we have a school, it's an athletic one
[14:16] but it's a school and this is one
[14:18] where you're gonna have parents doing the as as a parent
[14:20] to a 6-year-old, the proverbial drop off in pickups.
[14:24] Right? Those parents are gonna need to sign to know where,
[14:27] where to turn into.
[14:28] Mr. Chair? Yes sir. I'm sorry
[14:30] To interrupt if I may, just for the interest of the
[14:34] kinda getting on the record, could you please just read
[14:36] exactly as it's written
[14:38] and then once you finish, dive into all
[14:40] of everything else? Oh, okay. Thank you.
[14:42] That is our normal
[14:44] protocol, however, that's a normal protocol.
[14:45] I apologize and I, you know, try to emphasize that.
[14:47] But to understand there's time available.
[14:50] I, I let it go but I'm fine with Mr.
[14:53] Corby's request. That's fine. Thank
[14:54] You.
[14:55] Just helps me keep it a little straighter
[14:56] as I don't lose my spot on the page.
[15:04] Essentially what's written we want on the record.
[15:06] I understand it considered a sworn testimony.
[15:09] Got it. Alright.
[15:11] So then going back to that variance will not be contrary
[15:13] to the public interest because in order
[15:15] to determine if a variance is contrary
[15:16] to the public interest, the zoning board
[15:17] of adjustment must determine if the requested relief alters
[15:20] the essential character of the neighborhood
[15:22] or threatens public health, safety or welfare.
[15:24] That is the harbor side case
[15:26] 1 62 New Hampshire 5 0 8 2011.
[15:30] The applicant seeks to reuse an existing building
[15:32] that was once a Catholic church.
[15:34] The proposed use is allowed in the zone
[15:37] and the only variance required is for signage.
[15:39] A sign is a customary addition to any business
[15:42] because the pylon sign will not overburden the property,
[15:44] the character of the neighborhood will not change.
[15:47] The sign will not threaten
[15:48] public health, safety, or welfare.
[15:50] On the contrary, the sign will
[15:52] help make the allowed use safer.
[15:54] The signage will n not impact sight lines on the roads
[15:57] and it will assist people in finding the property.
[16:00] The sign is an overall benefit
[16:01] to public health, safety and welfare.
[16:04] The spirit of the ordinance is observed
[16:06] because the intent of the zoning, any zoning ordinance is
[16:09] to protect health, safety, and welfare of the community.
[16:12] Signage will assist these goals by making
[16:15] an allowed use safer.
[16:17] The proposed sign will not include any reader boards
[16:20] or electronic signage making traffic flow.
[16:23] Safer traffic is within the spirit of the ordinance.
[16:26] Substantial justice is done
[16:28] because substantial justice is measured by whether the loss
[16:31] of the applicant in the event
[16:32] of a variance denied outweighs any gain
[16:34] to the general public In denying the variance.
[16:36] Here, the applicant has two businesses that are allowed
[16:38] to operate on the property,
[16:40] but the zoning ordinance does not allow
[16:41] for signage to the property.
[16:43] Signs are important for any business without it finding the
[16:47] business would be difficult and the applicant would be
[16:49] barred from a basic form of advertisement.
[16:52] The public would not see any gain in denying the variance.
[16:54] Rather it would be a detriment to traffic
[16:56] and the proposed sign would not negatively
[16:58] impact the general public.
[17:00] The value of surrounding properties are not diminished
[17:03] because there's no indication
[17:05] that a sign will impact the surrounding property values.
[17:07] The sign does not encroach onto abutting properties
[17:09] and will not obstruct any views.
[17:11] The sign will be, the sign will not have the reader board.
[17:15] So any concern regarding the moving signs
[17:17] or a a sign is moot hardship.
[17:21] The property is a commercial property in a residential zone.
[17:25] It is surrounded by residential properties,
[17:27] but a commercial use has long been established.
[17:29] The dairy zoning ordinance does not allow
[17:30] for commercial signage in the LMDR
[17:33] and the applicant requires signage for its business.
[17:35] The property has historically had a
[17:38] sign on it for the church.
[17:40] The proposed use is reasonable
[17:42] because the sign is a reasonable size.
[17:44] It provides enough notice to those passing by that our
[17:49] businesses on the property but does not
[17:51] overburden the property.
[17:52] The applicant is presenting this application
[17:54] as a reasonable compromise with the abutters
[17:56] who raised concerns regarding the prior variance approval.
[17:59] Thank you very much. Sure. And now feel free
[18:01] to elaborate in your own words.
[18:02] You were sure. That'd be great. A nice job. Thank you.
[18:04] Thank you. Yeah.
[18:06] You know, so just taking back where I left off here,
[18:09] I was talking about the drop off in pickups of students.
[18:12] You know, any school has students, excuse me,
[18:16] any school has students that obviously
[18:17] change from year to year.
[18:20] So there's gonna be lots of folks coming
[18:22] and going that are not necessarily gonna
[18:23] be familiar with the area.
[18:25] And what's unique about this particular baseball school
[18:30] is it's a baseball school, right?
[18:32] And it's owned and operated by a, a, a professional,
[18:35] a former professional baseball player.
[18:37] So it's likely that this is gonna be of a, a unique niche
[18:42] interest to a lot of kids out there want to play baseball.
[18:46] So you're likely gonna get folks that are traveling from,
[18:48] you know, Hey, Chelmsford Mass
[18:49] or up north are coming from Maine that just don't know dairy
[18:53] and especially your residential streets.
[18:55] So it makes sense to have something there
[18:57] that identifies this business.
[18:59] So, so folks can pull in and see it.
[19:03] The sign's not gonna threaten public
[19:04] health, safety or welfare.
[19:06] On the contrary, you know, a sign like this helps
[19:09] to make a site like this safer.
[19:11] It's not gonna impact the sight lines.
[19:12] The sight lines are fine
[19:14] and it's gonna insist assist
[19:16] with people finding the property.
[19:18] Now I acknowledge
[19:19] that when I read the decision from the court,
[19:22] there was some evidence presented the last time around
[19:24] that the reader board could cause some sort
[19:26] of traffic impediment.
[19:28] Well, that's not an issue now
[19:30] 'cause we've gotten rid of that and it's just a, a sign
[19:34] the spirit of the ordinance.
[19:36] You know, the only elaboration I'll make beyond
[19:38] what I've already stated on the record is that the analysis
[19:40] for the spirit of the ordinance prong is the same
[19:43] as the first prong.
[19:44] So says the case in Harborside.
[19:46] So generally when I get to that point, I say,
[19:48] I'll just reiterate what I just said.
[19:50] And you can see that in the record.
[19:52] As for the substantial justice,
[19:53] what I'll, you know, expound on that.
[19:58] You know, here the applicant has two businesses.
[20:00] They're allowed to operate at this property.
[20:01] It's just that he's not allowed to have the sign
[20:03] and signs are important for any commercial business.
[20:06] Without it, it's gonna be difficult for people to find it.
[20:09] You know, the public's not gonna see any gain in it.
[20:11] And rather it might be a detriment to traffic
[20:13] because if you have folks
[20:15] that are traveling down a residential street, they're trying
[20:18] to find the baseball school, they don't see it at first
[20:21] because they didn't see a sign.
[20:22] Guess what they're gonna do? They're gonna pull around
[20:25] and turn around in somebody's driveway down the road, right?
[20:28] And turn around and come back.
[20:30] And finally I'll add
[20:31] that this is a good tax boost for the town.
[20:35] So the public would not gain that if, if there was a problem
[20:38] for this business being there surrounding property values.
[20:42] There's simply no indication
[20:44] that this sign is gonna impact the negative property values.
[20:47] Again, it's not encroaching, as we said,
[20:49] it doesn't obstruct any views.
[20:51] There's not gonna be a reader board.
[20:53] So that problem is gone and we've submitted a letter to you.
[20:56] I hope you have it in case you do not.
[20:58] I do have extra copies.
[20:59] It is from one of the abutters who's a realtor
[21:01] who spoke favorably about this application
[21:04] and also opined that it's not going
[21:06] to negatively impact any property values.
[21:09] And finally, hardship. Thank you.
[21:12] Hardship is always a three step analysis.
[21:14] What are the special conditions, the fair
[21:17] and substantial prong?
[21:18] And is the use reasonable?
[21:21] Well, the special conditions are satisfied due
[21:24] to the uniquely large size of this lot
[21:28] as compared to others in the area.
[21:31] It is significantly larger than any other lot in the area.
[21:34] There's gonna be a type
[21:35] of school in a structure that is already there.
[21:38] And a structure can also speak to the special conditions,
[21:41] as was pointed out by the court in its decision on page 17,
[21:45] citing to that Harborside case, which in that case the size
[21:49] of the hotel at issue in the harbor in the Harborside case,
[21:54] was ultimately deemed by the Supreme Court
[21:56] to be a special condition in relation to the size
[21:59] of the sign that they were trying to apply for.
[22:02] In that case, the ordinance in Portsmouth only allowed
[22:05] for a sign, you know, yay big.
[22:07] They wanted to sign this big
[22:08] and the Supreme Court said, you know what?
[22:10] The hotel's a big building, it needs that big sign.
[22:13] So I only raised that point to say that these
[22:16] structures there, location, their makeup is all relevant too
[22:19] to the special condition.
[22:21] And those structures are pushed way back from the road.
[22:24] So I know he is already got a clear, clean variance
[22:26] for signage on those buildings.
[22:28] But you can't see that from the road.
[22:29] You still need something from the road to kind of grab 'em.
[22:35] And the court did acknowledge in that decision
[22:38] that the setback
[22:40] of those buildings could be a special condition.
[22:42] It's the problem was the last time around the,
[22:45] the presentation never connected those dots.
[22:48] So that's what I'm trying to do here today.
[22:54] You know, if the buildings were actually closer to the road,
[22:56] we probably wouldn't need to be here.
[22:57] 'cause he could have just put
[22:58] the sign on the side of the building.
[23:00] But now the property is a commercial property in a
[23:04] residential zone.
[23:06] Now the court said you can't exactly use that
[23:09] as a special condition, at least with respect to
[23:13] this one step of hardship, the special condition.
[23:16] The reason is, is
[23:17] because it's not really a problem with the land as much
[23:20] as it's a legislative problem with the ordinance.
[23:23] So you've got this commercially zoned lot, not really zoned,
[23:27] but you have this use, this commercial use
[23:30] in a residential area.
[23:32] But it's certainly a, a viable factor to bring up
[23:36] for prongs one through four.
[23:38] And it's also a viable step in the analysis
[23:41] of hardship once you get past those special conditions.
[23:45] So again, you have the big lot, the business,
[23:48] it's pushed back, hence why it's
[23:51] logical to put a sign there.
[23:54] And you have this commercial use that's surrounded
[23:56] by all these residential properties.
[24:00] So you know that the size of the lot, the need
[24:03] for the sign in of itself is a special condition.
[24:07] And when you turn to that fair
[24:09] and substantial prong, which is always a mouthful,
[24:11] when you actually say the language from the court and,
[24:13] and i, I once read in the instructions of
[24:17] for the variance criteria in London dairy,
[24:20] somebody described it quite well.
[24:21] They said another way to say that is, is
[24:23] that if you grant the variance,
[24:25] does it unreasonably frustrate the purpose of the ordinance
[24:31] for which you're seeking relief.
[24:33] So, okay, so you gotta look at the purpose of the ordinance.
[24:37] The ordinance at issue is about signage in,
[24:40] in a residential area.
[24:41] In other words, you're not really
[24:42] supposed to have any right?
[24:43] Except you know, this small sign with your name
[24:45] or you know, home occupation saying, Hey, I've got a,
[24:47] I cut hair or whatever.
[24:48] I'm A CPA. Well, why do you have that?
[24:53] Well, you have that for the obvious reason
[24:54] that you don't want a bunch
[24:56] of signs in a residential neighborhood,
[24:58] you know, and we get that.
[25:00] But guess what, this is not a residential lot.
[25:03] It's not, it's a commercial lot.
[25:05] And that's where it comes in.
[25:07] So as long as that sign doesn't overly offend
[25:11] that ordinance, you get across that.
[25:14] And I would say it, it doesn't offend that we got rid
[25:16] of the reader board, the obnoxious moving
[25:19] lights that everybody hates.
[25:20] We, we get that. And now you have a straightforward sign
[25:24] identifying two businesses in a lot.
[25:26] That's eight and a half acres.
[25:28] So we would say that's not unreasonably frustrating,
[25:30] that purpose of the ordinance.
[25:32] And then the last step of the hardship analysis is whether
[25:34] the use is reasonable.
[25:36] That one's easy, it's allowed, the use is allowed,
[25:40] it's commercial use on a commercially commercial
[25:45] lot that's otherwise allowed.
[25:46] So it's reasonable. And that is all I have.
[25:50] I have the applicant here with Can,
[25:52] I probably got a few things you wants to say
[25:53] and you go however ahead.
[25:54] No, thank you, Mr. Feel free. You're done.
[25:56] Can you guys hear me? Is this on?
[26:00] So again, thank you for, for hearing my case.
[26:02] I know I've been here before. I see some,
[26:04] some recognizable faces.
[26:06] My name is Jay Yco.
[26:07] I'm the, the applicant
[26:08] and the owner, last time I was here is at the beginning
[26:11] stages of this, this process for both my business
[26:15] and obviously the signage contingency.
[26:19] I do not, please don't take it personally, Chris,
[26:22] I I do not wanna bring an attorney to this.
[26:24] When I came before I didn't do that.
[26:27] I just wanna come and speak to you,
[26:29] you know, as a resident as well.
[26:30] I'm not a resident of dairy, but
[26:31] as a business owner in dairy as I did before,
[26:33] but now I feel like I have that need.
[26:36] So unfortunately that's the situation I'm in.
[26:38] So that's, that's the reasoning for that.
[26:39] But I'd still like to speak to you as the business owner,
[26:42] as someone that, that occupies that property
[26:44] and explained to you what's hap what,
[26:46] where I'm at since that time.
[26:49] You know, obviously we talked about,
[26:50] and I won't, you know, belittle it, the the need
[26:53] for a signage at a business and new business.
[26:55] And I, I did, I took a leap of faith
[26:57] and I've spent an awful lot of money.
[26:59] I know that's not of a concern to a board. It is to me.
[27:02] I spent an awful lot of money coming to that property
[27:04] and building that property out.
[27:07] I've taken something that was an eyesore that was being used
[27:09] for, I don't even wanna say it on television
[27:13] and being abused and turned it into
[27:14] what I consider a nice use of that property
[27:17] and cleaned that property up 100%.
[27:20] I hear nothing but positive things.
[27:22] I know there's some folks in the room that might not feel
[27:24] that way, but I hear nothing
[27:25] but positive things from the neighbors
[27:27] that are all around me.
[27:29] Any Steri drive that road frequently.
[27:31] It is not a, it is not a rural road any longer.
[27:34] It is a busy road. And I hear nothing
[27:37] but positive from, from those folks, including, you know,
[27:40] my customer, my new customer base.
[27:43] I went through the whole process.
[27:44] I was granted that the signage here, we, we, you know,
[27:47] I couldn't wait forever to put a sign up.
[27:50] And we, and I wa was told, you know, it can take forever
[27:53] appeals and on and on and I, I have to run a business.
[27:55] So I put the sign up based on the, the approval
[27:59] that was granted to me.
[28:00] And, and now we're at this process.
[28:02] But what I can say from that time, from that, from
[28:04] that point on is that, you know, I again took a leap
[28:08] of faith, bringing a business here
[28:09] and started a business up in this area, which was, was,
[28:12] was a, a new business being the baseball side of things.
[28:15] And also my nursery
[28:17] that was established in Windham, but not in dairy.
[28:19] And literally from the minute the sign
[28:21] went up, my business increased.
[28:23] I, I saw it exponentially. It's, it's a massive need for me.
[28:27] I have a lot of the, the nursery's only open about half
[28:30] of the year, not really during the winter time.
[28:33] The baseball is during this time.
[28:34] And, and throughout the whole year since that time,
[28:37] we have had people come by, drop in, I saw you sign,
[28:41] I wanted to see what was going on here.
[28:42] Had no idea what was going on at our property.
[28:44] Now they've come with kids to, to come
[28:47] to our pitching clinics and our pitching schools
[28:49] and our hitting schools from Hampstead, from sand down,
[28:54] lampre River, little League dairy,
[28:56] little League Dairy Diamonds, Windham,
[28:58] little League, London Dairy.
[29:00] A lot of that has been
[29:01] because I've been able to, I've been seen
[29:03] and those people are coming from a great distance coming
[29:05] into dairy, spending money in dairy.
[29:07] Obviously if they're there dropping off for an hour, hour
[29:09] and a half, we have everything on our website to tell you
[29:11] that you can go to Shaw's and you go to Hannaford
[29:13] and do all that stuff while you're waiting.
[29:15] But as well as they're coming from a distance,
[29:18] they don't travel down Hampstead Road every day.
[29:21] So they don't, they wouldn't know
[29:23] where I am without seeing something kind of in their face.
[29:25] They need that. Our baseball program runs in the evenings
[29:30] as it gets, as it gets dark.
[29:32] So we need something. So we can see that.
[29:35] I also have noticed personally,
[29:36] and some of my employees have noticed
[29:38] and mentioned it from literally from the moment moment the
[29:41] sign went up, the traffic became easier to get in and out.
[29:46] It became safer for our, our customers coming in
[29:48] and out, say a landscape customer with a trailer.
[29:50] Because as you come up to our property on either direction,
[29:53] you see something and you know,
[29:55] there's something going on there.
[29:57] So people tend to, when that happens, I'm teaching my 15
[29:59] and a half year old how to drive right now.
[30:02] So I kind of give the old, Hey, you know,
[30:04] if you see something going on,
[30:05] you someone puts their brakes on,
[30:07] there's a reason slow down.
[30:09] And that has happened in that area.
[30:10] People coming around that corner, I've, we've noticed that,
[30:13] that, that, that significantly, you know, safer
[30:16] to be honest since that went up,
[30:18] because there is something recognizable in that area.
[30:22] That's, that's really where I'm at.
[30:24] I'll answer any questions.
[30:25] I, I've, I've gone into grave detail before for you folks.
[30:28] I'm happy to do it again if I'm asked a question,
[30:30] but, you know, I'm just asking for a leaf so I can
[30:33] continue doing what I'm doing and, and,
[30:35] and try to continue to be successful with my business.
[30:38] Well, your, your time, your, your passion is understood.
[30:41] However, let's, let's go back to your attorney
[30:43] or let's talk about case law Sure.
[30:45] And the merits of that.
[30:48] You've spoken about Harborside Associates
[30:50] and you've put that on your application.
[30:55] You care to elaborate on that case at all
[30:57] and a little more on how it applies here.
[31:00] Oh, well, I, I was the reason, well it's first of all
[31:04] where the rules come from.
[31:06] So for prongs one and two, that's where you get those.
[31:09] I mean, it's, it's in other cases,
[31:10] but that's the biggest one that it comes from
[31:14] the o The other reason I raised it was, it was,
[31:16] it was mentioned on page 17 of the court decision
[31:20] that overturned the variance.
[31:22] And what it mentioned was is that the, the building,
[31:25] the structure in that case can be a special condition.
[31:29] So I was raising that here
[31:30] because I drawing that similarity, if you will,
[31:34] where here we have these structures on his lot,
[31:37] they're pushed back, hence, you know, creating the,
[31:42] the sort of need or the condition
[31:44] for the sign to be by the road.
[31:46] And that's based on where that structure is.
[31:49] So if the structure can be considered part
[31:52] of a special exception is why I raised it.
[31:54] I find that the sign is replacing a sign, albeit it was
[31:57] for a, you know, for the, the,
[32:01] the church, right?
[32:03] Yeah. Sizable.
[32:04] There's the, the contention between what this version
[32:08] of your client is looking for versus something
[32:13] that was concealed in bushes
[32:15] and probably harder to see despite the fact
[32:18] that I think it was 30 feet long.
[32:21] You indicated earlier that the significance of the sign
[32:25] helps people find the location
[32:28] and indicate people perhaps from Haverhill, right.
[32:31] That they don't understand that they don't know.
[32:32] They're stuff familiar with the area, the
[32:34] Community, right?
[32:35] Yeah. But you used the phrase Residential Street.
[32:37] Would you, would you categorize this as a residential street
[32:40] or more of a bypass?
[32:42] It's, you know, I'm, I'm,
[32:44] you're probably more familiar with the area than I am.
[32:46] I don't have because I didn't do it yet.
[32:48] But you know, the traffic count there is not, I know,
[32:51] I know some folks have come up in the past
[32:52] and say we live in a, a rural east area
[32:54] is a very rural town.
[32:56] It is, if you get off of east every road, right?
[32:59] I mean, I'm sorry east, every road in Hampstead Road
[33:02] that is not a, you know, rickety bypass.
[33:06] I mean it's, it is a bypass.
[33:08] I would consider it like bypass 28.
[33:09] It is, it is a heavily traveled road at this point.
[33:13] And a but said both of that, it's a super busy road.
[33:16] This is a very big concern.
[33:18] And then, you know, in a later statement they said this is a
[33:20] rural backwoods area.
[33:22] It's, it's a busy road.
[33:23] It's a very busy road and it connects sand down
[33:26] and Hampstead two, two der
[33:29] two two pretty good sized towns also.
[33:31] Those two, the, the Hampstead also is a,
[33:35] is a sending town to Pinton Academy.
[33:38] So it, it is a direct throughway to that.
[33:40] And I would also speak to the, your question
[33:43] or your comment on the, the previous sign for the,
[33:46] the Catholic church that was there for 25 years.
[33:49] Yes, it was, it was 30 feet long. It was four feet tall.
[33:53] It didn't have the same appearance as the sign I have.
[33:56] I would note that the two different businesses,
[33:59] if we'll call a Catholic church the business,
[34:02] they had the same people go every Sunday, sir.
[34:05] And I have different people coming in
[34:06] and out all the time trying to game my business each year,
[34:09] literally daily or weekly.
[34:11] So it's, it's a different clientele need
[34:15] for the signage for sure. A hundred percent.
[34:17] Do you find Simplex has some significance
[34:20] into this case at all?
[34:22] The old Simplex standard? Yeah.
[34:26] I mean they, they get into the hardship, the ability
[34:29] of a board to, you know,
[34:32] and I think you touched on it earlier about, you know,
[34:35] there's three basic principles to the hardship aspect
[34:38] of this, which is where Simplex is going.
[34:41] And, and I think that's the biggest constraint here.
[34:45] And I think it's noted in the, in the former case as well.
[34:49] Yeah. I think that, well the,
[34:50] the tough part about when you say the former case,
[34:52] you're talking about the, the court case, right?
[34:54] This here. Yep. You know, I read that very carefully
[34:57] and I have a lot of experience in front of Judge K class
[35:02] and what he's getting at with the special conditions.
[35:05] That was what it was for him.
[35:07] You know, his, the, the biggest push, I think the last trip
[35:11] around was this is a commercial
[35:16] lot stuck in a residential zone.
[35:19] That's the special condition.
[35:22] I've, I've already been in front of class when,
[35:24] when he's done this too, where he said, well,
[35:27] you can change the zoning.
[35:30] It's the land. That's the, that's
[35:32] what makes it the special condition.
[35:34] Hmm. The makeup of the land as well as the structures on it.
[35:37] And that's what he said in that decision is he said,
[35:40] you know, and he cites the harbor sites saying, you know,
[35:43] you can use the, the structure.
[35:44] He even stated in no uncertain terms in
[35:47] that decision saying the distance of those buildings back
[35:50] could be a special condition,
[35:51] but nobody ever bothered to really make that connection.
[35:54] Instead they spent all the time talking about commercial
[35:56] versus residential.
[35:58] Commercial versus residential.
[35:59] I mean, theoretically he could
[36:03] get a petition warrant article up for the next march
[36:06] and change the zoning and, and possibly and,
[36:09] and do it legislatively.
[36:12] But what we're saying here is that the sign is necessary
[36:15] because of the size of the lot.
[36:17] Well, the size, the way the size of the lot really speaks
[36:19] to it is it speaks to the uniqueness of the lot as well
[36:23] as the proportionality of the sign that's before you
[36:27] and saying that, you know, it's appropriate size,
[36:31] it's appropriate sign the signs needed.
[36:33] 'cause the special condition of the houses being,
[36:35] the structures being pushed all the way back.
[36:37] Nobody knows it's there and you know, people are liable
[36:40] to blow right by it.
[36:41] And like I said, you know,
[36:43] when people miss their turn, what do they do?
[36:45] Turn around in the driveway,
[36:47] you know, some of the, a lot of the times. So,
[36:49] So, but isn't the emphasis in this and,
[36:52] and you see it in a couple of cases that the,
[36:55] the courts have decided
[36:57] that the hardship can't be self-imposed.
[37:00] Yeah. Can't be self-imposed. Sure.
[37:02] And and do we find that, like in this case, you know,
[37:06] this is, this is not a non-conforming
[37:09] pre-existing, you know, business.
[37:12] This is something that's an approved use
[37:14] by the planning board here in town.
[37:17] Does that disqualify the idea
[37:19] that this is a self-imposed hardship?
[37:21] Not at all. I think any commercial business needs a sign.
[37:24] Yeah. Yeah.
[37:27] All right, I'll, I'll back off for a minute. Anybody else?
[37:30] Mr. Corbet? Anybody? Mr. Trip? Yes sir.
[37:33] You've kept talking about the buildings being
[37:36] set back from the road.
[37:38] Do you have an estimate on how far the building is set back?
[37:42] Do you know Sir? 300 feet. 300 feet?
[37:44] I mean, from the driveway
[37:46] entrance? Well, you can see it. Yes.
[37:47] 300 feet. Yeah. It, I I said an estimate.
[37:50] It doesn't have to, yeah. Yes, it doesn't have
[37:51] to be 3 0 1 0.5.
[37:53] Thank you. Yeah, the,
[37:58] I I, I know we've been talking about, you know,
[38:07] why we need a sign, but we haven't managed
[38:11] to get around to talking about, you know,
[38:15] how big a sign it's gonna be, you know,
[38:18] because I think, you know, that probably has an effect on,
[38:21] you know, whether the,
[38:25] the sign is a, an annoyance.
[38:29] Now I know the, the,
[38:31] the reason the sign was an annoyance last time was
[38:34] because of the reader board.
[38:36] Right. You know, is the sign this go
[38:41] around basically the same size as the previous sign? So
[38:45] No, we lost 30 square feet
[38:46] by getting rid of the reader board.
[38:49] So it's less
[38:51] So that the, the bottom two pieces are basically the same
[38:55] as previously
[38:57] Top two pieces?
[38:58] Yes. The top two pieces. Oh, Yes.
[39:00] Which makes it about 50 square feet or whatever.
[39:04] I think so. Yeah. I have to,
[39:06] I have to look at the specs quickly.
[39:08] Maybe even a little less than that.
[39:09] The drawing shows it has two, five
[39:11] By five.
[39:12] I know, but I wanted him to say that, you
[39:14] Know, the record shows 50 square feet
[39:17] Now.
[39:18] 'cause know there's a reason it's 50 square feet
[39:21] because it's, it needs to be big enough that it's, you know,
[39:25] visible from the, the road.
[39:28] You know, what's the purpose
[39:29] of having a sign if nobody sees it? Right,
[39:32] Exactly.
[39:33] Yeah.
[39:35] Do you, I'm sorry, go ahead, Mr.
[39:37] I noticed in the zoning ordinance it says that any sign
[39:43] that is greater than
[39:49] six square feet has to be 10 feet from the,
[39:52] the front lot line.
[39:54] Now where, where do you an anticipate putting
[39:57] these signs? Now? I
[39:58] Be, I believe we're, yeah,
[40:00] I think we're, well, well beyond that.
[40:03] Lemme see if I can get on the plan here, sir.
[40:07] Yeah, I think it's 30 feet, 30 feet back from the road.
[40:16] 10 feet. 10 feet.
[40:22] So the thing is this, the sign is visible,
[40:25] but it's not the
[40:27] Sign Sticking out,
[40:29] Sticking out at you.
[40:31] I said the sign is visible, but it's, it is not, you know,
[40:37] It, it's certainly not on top
[40:38] of the road if yes, if that's a concern.
[40:39] Yeah. We're not in the right way or anything like
[40:41] That.
[40:42] And the sign is big enough that you
[40:42] can see it from the road.
[40:44] Correct. You know, so,
[40:45] And that's the idea.
[40:46] It's, it's proportional to the size of the lot. Yes.
[40:49] Yeah. That's The point.
[40:50] Yeah. Right. Thank you. Yep. Mr. Darwin?
[40:54] I'm good right now. Mr. Chip,
[40:55] Mr. Corbit,
[40:57] I have no questions at this time, Mr.
[40:58] Chair. I think Harborside keeping me busy for the moment.
[41:01] Alright, Mr. Dietzel? No, thank you, Mr. Chair.
[41:04] Okay, hang on just a second, folks.
[41:13] I find that, that Mr.
[41:15] Drescher, when you're referencing Judge Class's comments
[41:19] and Mr.
[41:20] Trip's question, you know,
[41:23] talking about the 300 foot significance of the building off
[41:27] of the, the road edge and that there's this acceptance
[41:32] and, and not even questioned by the Abutters appeal
[41:37] about the, the fact that that building is
[41:40] so far back from the road,
[41:41] but it, it needs signs for itself in order to be recognized.
[41:47] And your point is that if the building were closer
[41:49] to the road, you could have just put the signs on the
[41:52] building, but it's so far back, it's,
[41:54] it's hard to recognize.
[41:56] And Mr. Tripp's question about that, that distance from the,
[42:00] I guess the road edge to the building is about 300 feet.
[42:03] And, and please keep in mind
[42:05] that I think everyone's been by this building.
[42:07] I I I'm assuming and if you live in town once or twice.
[42:10] Yeah. Yeah. So it's, it, it still sets
[42:14] as a church trying very hard to let people know it's not,
[42:18] but it's still, when people drive by,
[42:20] they have to question that fact.
[42:21] Of course. That it still has the appearance of a church.
[42:24] I think we've done a good job so far,
[42:25] but it's still, it is in the works, you know, it's,
[42:27] it is very unique
[42:28] because it still has the appearance of a church.
[42:30] Got it. Okay. Mr. O Bimba or Mr.
[42:36] Ani, I think you came in, am I correct?
[42:38] Anybody else have any questions? Mr. Sca? You all set?
[42:42] I'm good. Okay. Very good.
[42:44] All gentlemen, well, we'll make a call to,
[42:46] unless you wanna add anything else, we'll make a call
[42:48] to public and you'll have an opportunity to rebut. Yeah, I,
[42:51] I have nothing further at this time.
[42:52] Do you have anything? No. Okay, we're fine.
[42:54] Good enough. Okay. We'll have you sit back
[42:57] to the front row and I know there's some folks
[42:59] One question.
[43:00] Yeah. Yeah.
[43:04] Gentlemen, all set? Yeah. Clear out.
[43:07] Make a call to public.
[43:09] Anybody in support of this application,
[43:12] this is your opportunity to come forward and be hurt.
[43:15] Seeing nobody rush the dais here. Anybody opposed?
[43:20] This is your opportunity.
[43:31] Mr. Foley. Have you
[43:35] introduced yourself for the record by
[43:37] I'll do that.
[43:38] My name is Jim Foley. I live at 1 78
[43:40] Hamstead Road here in dairy.
[43:41] Pardon me, Mr. Chair,
[43:43] if we could ensure proximity to the microphone, please.
[43:45] Can you speak? There you go. You got that.
[43:48] My name is Jim Foley.
[43:49] I live at 1 78 Hamstead Road here in dairy,
[43:52] and I'm one of the abutters to this property.
[43:56] So here my neighbors and I are, again,
[44:01] after two hearings in front of the ZBA last June
[44:08] and a decision that only five people
[44:12] thought was right, that would be the applicant,
[44:16] the three members of the board that voted for it.
[44:19] And Mr. Mackey, the variance was granted
[44:22] for an oversized commercial sign.
[44:25] Now, I mentioned Mr. Mackey
[44:27] because in doing our research for our appeal, we found some,
[44:32] what we consider to be curious
[44:34] and even disturbing emails between Mr.
[44:36] Mackey and the sign company that was building the sign.
[44:41] And I'm gonna hold you up right there
[44:42] because I would, I would caution you
[44:44] to stay on point about your, your the,
[44:47] the lawfulness of this.
[44:49] I've heard this before and I don't think it's accurate.
[44:52] You've tried to indicate that he had some kind
[44:55] of impression on the board.
[44:57] The board never saw those emails and we don't get into that.
[45:01] It's between code enforcement
[45:02] and the code enforcement is by statute allowed
[45:05] to give direction and helpfulness to the public
[45:08] And superior court ruled that
[45:10] that was not accurate. Okay.
[45:11] This is my term. I did, I I didn't
[45:16] Hear anything. So
[45:17] I I would just state to the, The point fine.
[45:19] I I will say this. I if there a question that was me.
[45:21] You find it curious and unusual.
[45:23] Mr. Foley. I'm sorry, I yelled at the attorney.
[45:24] I think that was me who said Superior Court?
[45:26] I didn't, I thought it came from behind you. Yes.
[45:28] Superior Court found that that was
[45:29] inaccurate. I just wanna restate
[45:30] That.
[45:31] It's not, it's not Mr. Mackey giving
[45:32] a citizen direction how to get a separate system. Right.
[45:34] Again, the Superior Court has ruled that
[45:36] what you're stating is inaccurate.
[45:37] What's that? That there was not any,
[45:40] that we were not influenced by this, which is what Mr.
[45:42] Per said. That was argument was never made
[45:44] in front of the Superior Court.
[45:46] The argument was we just filed that we felt
[45:48] that there was some bias on this court towards the people
[45:50] that were against this and the way that they were treated.
[45:55] So in any case, a hearing was held in early November
[45:59] before the Hillsborough Superior Court,
[46:00] which Byrd Enterprise had not intervened, did not attend.
[46:04] Again, relying on the town's attorney to prevent its case.
[46:08] And a ruling handed down on the 31st of December,
[46:11] the Hillsborough Superior Court ruled that
[46:15] ruled against overturn the ZBA a's division
[46:17] and vacated the variance.
[46:20] No motion was for reconsidered as fired by the town
[46:23] and no appeal was made to the Supreme Court.
[46:26] The court's analysis
[46:28] and decision rest on two points that first of all,
[46:33] on four of the requirements for exceptions, no record made.
[46:39] No record was made are appears in the record
[46:42] for real estate values of good faith with the ordinance
[46:47] and substantial justice.
[46:49] But the other thing it did, they said there was enough
[46:51] of a record that neither the applicant or this court
[46:55] or this board had met the standard about
[46:59] unnecessary hardship.
[47:02] And nothing I've heard tonight changes that
[47:06] the argument made tonight is virtually identical
[47:09] to the application that was filed last June.
[47:12] That was heard last June. Virtually identical.
[47:16] Now this idea that we have compromised
[47:19] 'cause you remove the messaging center,
[47:20] doesn't change the fact
[47:22] that there's an oversized commercial sign
[47:26] back lit in a residential neighborhood.
[47:31] And whatever anecdotal stories we have about traffic
[47:33] or whatever are the rest, it's a residential neighborhood.
[47:39] The court ruled that you can't come to the hardship.
[47:42] The court ruled that you can't have a self-created hardship
[47:46] and then get a variance for it.
[47:48] Bird Enterprise knew exactly what this land was,
[47:51] where things were located
[47:52] and what was going to happen to them before he purchased it.
[47:57] If the business decision was
[47:59] to invest over a million dollars in a property
[48:02] based on a oversized commercial sign
[48:04] and residential area, it's a bad business plan.
[48:08] The court specifically rejected this theory,
[48:11] which was argued by the town's attorney
[48:15] that this is an acceptable business use
[48:20] And that business usage commercial areas like this
[48:23] could have signs like this.
[48:25] What it ignores is the InBetween.
[48:27] This is not a commercial lot.
[48:29] Wait, could you repeat that last portion?
[48:31] They stated the sign
[48:33] and the business were both not permitted. The
[48:34] Thing is, is that what they No, no, no.
[48:35] Please what repeat, could you just repeat what you said?
[48:37] You said the sign and the business were not,
[48:39] they've ruled the sign and the,
[48:40] I missed, I just missed what you said.
[48:41] I'm, I don't understand what
[48:42] You're asking.
[48:43] I'm asking to repeat what you just said like 15 words ago.
[48:45] What I'm saying is, is that the town attorney tried
[48:49] to bootstrap that this is an allowed
[48:54] usage in a residential area.
[48:56] The sign, the no, the business,
[48:58] the business is an allowed usage in a residential area.
[49:02] The planning board made that decision. Yes.
[49:04] If this is an allowed usage, then they try to bootstrap
[49:08] by saying that businesses like this commonly have signs
[49:13] like the one they're asking the variance for what
[49:15] You just said that the business wasn't approved though.
[49:17] Who stated that? What's
[49:18] That? You
[49:19] Said that business wasn't approved, which
[49:21] Is what So the business was an approved use in a,
[49:23] in a residential area.
[49:24] Are you saying wasn't or I can't was Okay.
[49:26] I misunderstood. That's, I'm sorry.
[49:27] It was, I I thought you keep
[49:28] saying wasn't That's why I was lost. I'm sorry. So,
[49:30] So and this,
[49:31] but to say that this is a sign that goes with this type of
[49:35] business, you can't bootstrap them.
[49:38] It is a allowed use within a residential area
[49:44] and that's what differentiates from Harborside.
[49:47] You had a commercial business
[49:50] and a commercial area zone commercial.
[49:57] Nothing that's been said tonight.
[49:58] None of the presentations tonight.
[50:00] The applicant is virtually the same
[50:03] as the application was made in next last June
[50:05] and has been overturned.
[50:08] So you're Mr. Trip,
[50:11] Can I ask you a question?
[50:13] Yes. So it was a planning board that determined
[50:17] that this was a commercial lot.
[50:24] It was the planning board that said that the use,
[50:28] I mean the history here is quite simple.
[50:29] You can put a church anywhere you want to in, in this,
[50:32] in this town, except there's one or two exceptions.
[50:34] Church is put there, church goes outta business.
[50:37] So it is this odd church use commercial, whatever.
[50:41] What the applicant did was what before the planning board
[50:45] and the planning board accepted the fact that the uses
[50:48] that he wanted make of it was not such a change
[50:50] that they could not, that they needed to go in front
[50:53] of the zoning board to get it done.
[50:55] So the use of the land
[50:58] is an approved use within a residential area.
[51:01] It is not a commercial lot.
[51:07] So it is a Approved use.
[51:09] It is an approved use of
[51:12] that property within a residential area.
[51:16] And the planning board determined that? Yes.
[51:20] Thank you. Okay.
[51:23] So that's what differentiates from Harborside.
[51:27] What they're trying to do is put a commercial sign up
[51:30] in a residential area.
[51:35] They couldn't overcome the hardship
[51:38] obstacle at the superior court,
[51:40] nor tonight have they come over any
[51:42] of the other obstacles about granting the variance.
[51:46] Now the fact of the matter is,
[51:47] is despite the variance being overturned,
[51:51] the applicant went ahead and put the sign up.
[51:53] And that's what makes things,
[51:54] that makes some things different.
[51:57] This is no longer in the hypothetical.
[51:59] The sign's there, we know what it looks like.
[52:04] We know what a nuisance it is. We can see it.
[52:07] And I have a packet here for you folks that has,
[52:10] among other things, the court's ruling my memorandum of law
[52:14] that I presented to the court.
[52:15] That is the basis for its ruling the picture
[52:21] of the sign of the signs from my household, my house.
[52:26] The fact of the matter is,
[52:27] although this has been an, has been a violation
[52:30] of the zoning ordinances since the 31st of December,
[52:34] the applicant has made no move, no move
[52:38] to take the thing down or even turn the lights off.
[52:42] Now we were promised, when you look at your notes,
[52:44] we were promised that this might be a sign be off at
[52:46] 7, 8, 9 after dark whatever.
[52:48] They closed signs on all night,
[52:51] signs on from dusk until dawn.
[52:54] So just relevant to the information you wish to disperse,
[52:58] this board's all is all aware
[53:00] and probably have seen all of those documents.
[53:03] But you should also understand this is not an appeal
[53:05] of the Superior Court's ruling.
[53:07] This is separate but references for clarity of exactly
[53:12] what you're speaking of, which is you're, you're insinuating
[53:15] that there's no changes that you're hearing now versus
[53:19] what you heard several months ago.
[53:21] I'm going to dispute that.
[53:22] I'm gonna get into that in a couple minutes with you,
[53:26] but I don't want to throw you off of your,
[53:27] You you're not, you're not throwing off.
[53:29] There are no changes. There is no hardship.
[53:31] There's what is the claim is, is, is that there's a hardship
[53:35] to the applicant that there's a financial hardship
[53:40] here, neither of which
[53:42] I didn't hear him say the sign was a financial
[53:45] hardship. I heard him say, he said
[53:46] That he needed, he Talked about
[53:48] investing in his business.
[53:49] Yeah. And he put his heart and his money into it.
[53:51] But I didn't hear him say the sign is a financial hardship.
[53:55] This is, which by the way,
[53:56] is a disqualifier or another case law.
[53:58] So let's make this clear.
[54:00] This is also something that happened here
[54:02] before we keep conflating the
[54:05] business and the sign.
[54:09] Mr. Chair, if we could just
[54:11] Get closer to the mic. Get closer to the mic. Thank
[54:12] You.
[54:13] We keep conflating the business and the sign.
[54:17] Last time we were here and the decision was made,
[54:20] no one talked, no one gave a record,
[54:22] which the court pointed out
[54:24] No, no, no, no, no.
[54:26] You wanted, you wanted a verbatim record minutes.
[54:30] And that's what the court says.
[54:31] Why is this confrontational?
[54:33] It's not confrontational,
[54:34] but I'm going to stand the ground here
[54:36] because I'm not the one coming out
[54:38] with false assertions against, against people,
[54:41] people who've retired by now.
[54:43] And so I want to just make sure the record is clear on this
[54:46] and I happen to think that I have the same intensity
[54:48] that you probably have towards me.
[54:50] You don't live next to the sign,
[54:52] It doesn't matter.
[54:53] You're kid, you're, you're indicating that I'm
[54:55] confrontational and I don't find that to be the case at all.
[54:58] This is a quasi-judicial board.
[55:00] My point is it's not, it's not a legislative
[55:02] or executive board.
[55:03] And it's gotta kept, be kept in that, in that light.
[55:06] I fully understand that. My point is this, the court ruled
[55:10] that there was not enough evidence within the record,
[55:14] within the record on the other four prongs
[55:18] for granting a variance that is within the court record.
[55:23] I find it more to the point of the not declaring
[55:26] what the unnecessary hardship is.
[55:28] And it's been cited by attorney drescher.
[55:32] You're, you're indicating that, and
[55:34] and you referenced this a couple of minutes ago,
[55:37] that there can't be a self-imposed hardship.
[55:40] I don't happen to think this is a self-imposed hardship.
[55:43] The, whether it's a commercial lot or,
[55:45] or a approved use in a residential zone is, is kind
[55:50] of immaterial on the hardship point.
[55:53] The the hardship is not self-imposed in my view.
[55:57] If the planning board has granted authorization, which,
[56:01] which as you may recall, created quite a, quite a Firestone
[56:06] firestorm of accusations when we heard this the first time,
[56:10] the idea that the zoning board was in on it
[56:13] with the planning board and, and the the general I was
[56:17] Part of that conversation.
[56:18] I'm sorry. Why you're bringing it up now. Well,
[56:20] I'm just trying to clarify what my meeting
[56:22] Is.
[56:23] What I'm trying to clarify is this, and
[56:23] you say this doesn't exist.
[56:25] This is the court ruling.
[56:26] However, here, based on the record
[56:28] before it, the court cannot ascertain how the ZBA engaged
[56:32] with the evidence and reach the conclusion the applicant
[56:35] satisfied the first four variance criteria stated in the
[56:38] context of the court's reviewing standard.
[56:40] The record's not clear which evidence constitutes the ZBA
[56:43] a's factual finding that this court must treat
[56:46] as ly lawful and reasonable.
[56:50] Well, we also didn't have somebody coming to us presenting
[56:54] the variance in this style.
[56:55] And I will say to you that in trying to,
[57:00] in trying to accommodate the concerns of yourself
[57:04] and your neighbors opening the door up,
[57:07] and you may recall this, my, my gesture
[57:09] to code enforcement about referencing
[57:12] how the approval on this came
[57:14] because it goes to
[57:15] what I was just saying when you interrupted me a couple
[57:17] minutes ago, is setting what the, what the environment was
[57:22] for that meeting and what we were,
[57:25] what we were dealing with.
[57:26] I will share with you probably on the record,
[57:29] it was not this board's best moment.
[57:32] And every once in a while you get one
[57:34] where it slips through the cracks.
[57:38] But we're gonna talk about what's pertinent in this case
[57:41] now, not,
[57:42] not keep reflecting on the board's errors the last time.
[57:46] Let's keep this in mind that the,
[57:48] that the applicant has the ability, if this gets voted down
[57:52] to come back, modify their sign application
[57:55] and come back again.
[57:57] If it's denied by code enforcement,
[57:58] they have the right legally to ask
[58:00] for an administrative appeal and come before the board
[58:03] and ask for that clarity.
[58:05] So, you know, ref continuing to reflect on, on
[58:09] what happened several months ago, other than
[58:12] to be constructive, to move this forward is
[58:15] what I'm really trying to, to accomplish
[58:17] Here.
[58:18] Well, I I really don't
[58:18] understand what you're trying to accomplish.
[58:19] What I'm saying to you is
[58:20] that I see in this application no significant difference
[58:23] than the application that was prevented last June
[58:26] and which the Superior Court overturned. Well this,
[58:29] Well, the significant difference is the electronic
[58:31] messaging sign and you had, is not attached
[58:34] to this application.
[58:35] And you had neighbor, you had people who were your neighbors
[58:39] who were adjoined with you in your action.
[58:42] And some of them were asked right out front, did you,
[58:44] is is the problem here, the electronic messaging sign?
[58:47] Or is it the pylon sign?
[58:49] And it was the electronic messaging sign.
[58:52] And as what was relayed by the applicant's attorney is that
[58:56] that becomes the focal point
[58:58] and why the board ends up tabling to the next meeting.
[59:01] Because there's the, there's the, there's the,
[59:04] the information about whether
[59:05] or not that electronic messaging sign was going
[59:09] to be a safety hazard along the road
[59:10] or not. That was its focus.
[59:12] Okay. And the focus is now the sign's up
[59:16] and now we're opposed to the sign, we're opposed
[59:18] to a 50 square foot back lick sign that is on
[59:23] 18 hours out of the day that can be seen in the houses
[59:27] of all the abutter neighbors.
[59:29] And you'll be prevented photographic signs of that.
[59:32] And I would concur with you that the board's
[59:35] decisions supported that there was conditional times that
[59:40] that light would, would be on.
[59:41] And, and I can't speak to whether
[59:43] or not there's a, Mrs. Owen can maybe speak to this.
[59:47] Is there an official complaint that the,
[59:49] that the sign is on at night?
[59:50] Yes, because I, there is there on record,
[59:53] There is not a written complaint.
[59:55] I've received conflicting
[59:56] information over the last few weeks.
[59:58] Alright. How about
[59:59] after, what, what was the anniversary
[1:00:02] decision on This came out January 2nd.
[1:00:04] Yes. So yeah. So was there anything after January 2nd?
[1:00:08] Yes, I was made aware a few weeks ago
[1:00:10] that the, it may have been on.
[1:00:11] Okay. About a week later, someone had notified me
[1:00:14] that it had been turned off
[1:00:16] and then last week I was notified that it may be on again.
[1:00:18] So, and, and, and constructively when the board sets
[1:00:22] conditions like that, it is to try
[1:00:24] and appease those who have given co commentary
[1:00:28] or opposition to an application so that you have your rights
[1:00:31] to be able to, to, to complain about it.
[1:00:34] And, and, and you're, you're allowed to do that.
[1:00:39] I can't speak to the actions beyond, beyond
[1:00:41] what goes on in this room.
[1:00:43] There is no hardship in the land itself
[1:00:47] that requires an oversized commercial sign.
[1:00:52] You're correct. There may not be a
[1:00:56] hardship in the land itself,
[1:00:58] but the case law on hardship is broken into two, two phases.
[1:01:03] And it's not just about the, the land itself.
[1:01:05] The second prong of the two of the hardship question is
[1:01:10] owing to specific circumstances to the land is not usable.
[1:01:14] And that's not what's being asked here.
[1:01:17] That's, it's, we're saying the same thing.
[1:01:20] Whatever that specific circumstances is
[1:01:22] to the land does not constant hardship
[1:01:24] to putting up a commercial sign in residential areas. So it
[1:01:27] Goes to the other prong of the hardship
[1:01:29] Goes to both prongs.
[1:01:31] There is no hardship.
[1:01:32] And the fact of the matter is as again, argument made
[1:01:36] before the judge is, is the fact of the matter is, is
[1:01:39] that he specifically said there was no hardship.
[1:01:43] And whether, you know, folks, what were argued, what
[1:01:44] that sort of stuff, it does not change the fact
[1:01:48] that this is a approved use.
[1:01:51] It's not a commercial lot that
[1:01:53] however wonderful that business is,
[1:01:56] which is now being called a school instead of a clinic
[1:01:58] as it was originally proved use, whatever that use is
[1:02:02] and how good it is and how good it is
[1:02:03] to have a baseball thing here,
[1:02:05] as we heard in the last hearings, the fact of the matter is
[1:02:09] we're talking about the sign not the business.
[1:02:13] And there is no hardship created that allows
[1:02:17] that sign to be up there.
[1:02:19] Along with that I would disagree.
[1:02:21] We also, we have our letters from our realtors
[1:02:24] that say it does diminishes our land value.
[1:02:27] It is not, it is against the idea of the, of the ordinance,
[1:02:31] which is to maintain this residential area.
[1:02:34] Anecdotally, you can say whatever you
[1:02:36] want about Hamstead Road.
[1:02:37] I live on it. Speed limit's still 30, 35 miles an hour
[1:02:40] depending where you are bypass 28 is 45 or 50.
[1:02:44] But it's busy, isn't It?
[1:02:45] What's that? It's a busy road, isn't it? Yes. What's that?
[1:02:48] And there's been accidents there. Correct?
[1:02:50] Where the road that you just referenced, the very one
[1:02:53] that you live on that you said Hamstead
[1:02:55] Road is, is, is, I have no doubt it's a busy road.
[1:02:57] It's still a road in a residential area.
[1:03:00] The usage of the road does not change the residential area.
[1:03:03] You can't bootstrap that one either.
[1:03:06] Bootstrap. Well, I'm, I I guess my, my thought on,
[1:03:09] on whether or not I, I use the reference whether it's
[1:03:13] a residential street or, or kind of a bypass
[1:03:16] because it is, it is different.
[1:03:18] It's not Olson road is it?
[1:03:20] How does it change? But it's not ol
[1:03:22] Olson road is it?
[1:03:23] How does it change the zoning? How does
[1:03:24] that change the busyness of the road?
[1:03:26] How does that change that,
[1:03:28] the characterization of
[1:03:30] that zoning? How does that change that?
[1:03:31] The the point is that is that it goes no, hey, hey,
[1:03:34] I I'm not gonna talk back and forth over you.
[1:03:36] We need a clean record. You asked a question.
[1:03:38] Yes, I'm answering the question. Right.
[1:03:40] It goes to the difference of, of what that road is and,
[1:03:44] and how it's, how it's shaped and how it's designed.
[1:03:47] And it's going to go to those other four prongs
[1:03:50] that you declare that the board did not
[1:03:52] have adequately on record. So,
[1:03:54] So it is your, it is your contention
[1:03:59] that a road is what changes the zoning ordinance.
[1:04:04] It is my contention that it could attribute
[1:04:07] to the five criteria in total and what the board may decide
[1:04:10] And which criteria does.
[1:04:11] And which criteria does that attribute to,
[1:04:13] which is the five criteria
[1:04:15] Public interest of spirit of the ordinance.
[1:04:20] Spirit of the ordinance.
[1:04:21] Is is that that's a residential area.
[1:04:23] Please explain to me again. 'cause I've heard this.
[1:04:25] I'm not going to explain it to you.
[1:04:26] It's not my, it's not my job to spent,
[1:04:29] Spent a lot time doing it.
[1:04:30] Mr. Perkins explaining to me what's going on in my
[1:04:35] zoning in my, in my district.
[1:04:37] That it's a very busy road. Yeah, that was my point.
[1:04:42] I'm not gonna be badged by you. I'm not nor as the
[1:04:44] Board. I don't What's that sir?
[1:04:46] We're not going to be badged by you.
[1:04:50] And you know, the fact of the matter is,
[1:04:51] is you just said it wasn't your best moments.
[1:04:54] I said everyone, Everyone, everyone who appeared
[1:04:57] before you the last three times regard,
[1:04:59] the last two times regarded this felt
[1:05:01] that we were badgered by the board
[1:05:03] That's given.
[1:05:04] And I've, and I've defined for you what this board is.
[1:05:08] I I your your your tenor, your, your, your,
[1:05:15] your temperament is probably the
[1:05:17] same that you're seeing from me.
[1:05:19] We don't have to sit here and, and and be badgered, right?
[1:05:22] I am again, here we are again.
[1:05:25] Yeah. We have a we have
[1:05:30] a zoning violation,
[1:05:33] Which is what An oversized commercial sign which has no
[1:05:37] variance in a residential area.
[1:05:40] Okay. And neither this board
[1:05:43] or the town seems to be interested in that fact.
[1:05:47] Well, and the fact, I can't say we're not interested in
[1:05:49] it, but you're, you're bringing up some points
[1:05:51] that are self-focused.
[1:05:54] What, what's that? What I
[1:05:56] don't understand what that means.
[1:05:58] Self focus means let's reference the idea that you have,
[1:06:03] that you have that property values will,
[1:06:05] would be diminished.
[1:06:07] And you have your documents. Mr.
[1:06:11] Drexler has, drescher has presented two documents from
[1:06:15] two different resources.
[1:06:16] But the courts, the higher courts have established
[1:06:19] that the board has, has that ability within itself
[1:06:22] to establish whether
[1:06:23] or not the, the documents presented, which is
[1:06:27] what we did the last time several months ago,
[1:06:31] has the knowledge to be able to regard
[1:06:33] or disregard that information as accurate or valid.
[1:06:41] Okay. I'm not sure where
[1:06:45] that, where that question was.
[1:06:47] The fact is, is that to this point,
[1:06:49] this whole discussion has been over the hardship
[1:06:53] and the hardship has already been ruled on.
[1:06:56] And there's no substantial difference
[1:06:58] between the applicant application before.
[1:07:00] And the application now
[1:07:03] Except substantial difference doesn't have an
[1:07:04] electronic messaging sign.
[1:07:05] And it's the applicant's right to be able to continue to, to
[1:07:11] adjust the application
[1:07:12] and ask for relief in different venues.
[1:07:16] Okay? The sign is different.
[1:07:17] The reasoning behind GI putting a commercial sign in a
[1:07:21] residential area okay.
[1:07:23] Has not changed. But
[1:07:25] Mr. Foley Is, the AR arguments are virtually the same.
[1:07:27] Could it be argued that the commercial sign is for a com?
[1:07:30] It's for a commercial use though,
[1:07:31] because the property is now, is now commercial.
[1:07:34] Like what's there is commercial.
[1:07:35] What was there previously institutionally was a church.
[1:07:39] See this is, we now have, excuse me,
[1:07:40] we now have multiple approved uses
[1:07:42] that there is a special condition.
[1:07:45] So now that makes it
[1:07:46] that we have a lawful use of the property.
[1:07:49] Why aren't they allowed now to identify that lawful use?
[1:07:52] That that is the definition of a hardship.
[1:07:55] The the judge addresses that matter.
[1:07:57] I doesn't that That's not this case. Doesn't case.
[1:07:59] That's not this case though. What's
[1:08:00] That?
[1:08:01] That was not for this case.
[1:08:03] It's gonna be the same argument.
[1:08:06] It's going to be the same argument.
[1:08:07] You cannot bootstrap off the fact that it's an approved use.
[1:08:10] It's not a commercial lot.
[1:08:12] It's approved use within a residential zone.
[1:08:15] Yes. But now, And his sign,
[1:08:18] Excuse me, you can't Mr. Foley.
[1:08:20] I understand, but listen, I apologize
[1:08:22] before that I misheard you.
[1:08:23] But you have come up extremely aggressive
[1:08:26] and for someone who has gone before the town council
[1:08:28] and is referred to us as demeaning,
[1:08:29] condescending, and misogynistic.
[1:08:30] You were, I no, we were not.
[1:08:32] And again, that's liable and I really don't appreciate it.
[1:08:35] You're up here again attacking. We're trying to speak.
[1:08:38] I'm not why can't, why am I catching all of your fire?
[1:08:41] I'm trying to like, I'm trying to sit here.
[1:08:43] I've left my family. I'm listening.
[1:08:44] But you just come up and attack like can we please,
[1:08:46] all I'm asking is when we all just be calm.
[1:08:48] I'm sorry. Having looked at the tapes
[1:08:50] of the first hearing on this and being involved.
[1:08:52] Yes. When your neighbor came up and said
[1:08:53] Being involved in the second one, confrontation
[1:08:55] started on the side of this board.
[1:08:56] No, it came up when your neighbor said
[1:08:58] that we formulated a plan behind closed doors legally
[1:09:00] and thought we were the planning board and attacked us.
[1:09:03] That is where it started. And you could see on June 5th.
[1:09:06] And so I would hope that when the chair
[1:09:08] or the town council does review it again this time
[1:09:10] as they stated that they see
[1:09:11] that once again you came up attacking
[1:09:13] and I know you're gonna misrepresent it again
[1:09:15] as we have a long history of doing. So let's please just
[1:09:18] Stick to the case. I have a history.
[1:09:20] Yes. Okay. So let's please stick to the case at hand.
[1:09:22] The case at hand is this, the application except
[1:09:27] for the size of the sign is virtually identical
[1:09:31] to the applications made last June.
[1:09:35] They have made no new arguments
[1:09:37] or different arguments than the one
[1:09:39] that was presented last June
[1:09:41] or was presented in front of the court in October last year.
[1:09:48] I think that's, I think that's your opinion.
[1:09:51] And I I what I'm gonna suggest is that instead of continuing
[1:09:54] to reference what happened last June
[1:09:57] and then again last October, the decision
[1:09:59] that was rendered in January 2nd is that your contention is
[1:10:02] that the first four prongs you felt we didn't satisfy
[1:10:07] you keep resting on the unnecessary hardship is
[1:10:10] not adequate this time.
[1:10:12] Why don't you try and make your case on the other four
[1:10:15] prongs and then you can rest and have somebody else come up.
[1:10:19] We made the case on the other four
[1:10:21] prongs on our previous hearing.
[1:10:23] I'm waiting for you to do it on this
[1:10:25] Hearing.
[1:10:26] I'll tell you that. An oversized commercial sign
[1:10:27] and we have our own letters
[1:10:29] and a residential area which can be seen
[1:10:32] and actually shines into the houses
[1:10:34] of the abutters diminishes land values. I'm
[1:10:37] Sure we'll address the light on at night.
[1:10:39] Am I correct Ms. Owen? Yes. All right.
[1:10:42] That aside, what next?
[1:10:44] It is not in the spirits of the ordinance.
[1:10:47] This is meant to be a low medium residential density area.
[1:10:53] It is a residential area.
[1:10:55] Whatever you wanna say about the road is a residential.
[1:10:57] It is, it will be the only
[1:11:02] commercial sign on Hamstead Road.
[1:11:07] There is no substantial hardship as we have gone over
[1:11:11] and there is no substantial justice being served here.
[1:11:16] It is the neighborhood that's being diminished.
[1:11:19] Not the applicant. The applicant.
[1:11:22] Go ahead. I wanted the answer
[1:11:26] to something you were gonna say, but go ahead. What's
[1:11:28] That?
[1:11:29] You proceed. The Applicant.
[1:11:30] The applicant, his
[1:11:35] his business does not rely on this sign.
[1:11:40] The business does not rely on this sign.
[1:11:42] It's as simple as that. If the business, if the amount
[1:11:46] of money that he's invested in, the passion, all that
[1:11:48] that he's invested in in this business relies on
[1:11:51] that sign then I'll say it again.
[1:11:53] It's a bad business plan.
[1:11:55] Basically he wants this sign,
[1:11:59] there's no other reason for it doesn't need the sign.
[1:12:03] It's not required.
[1:12:06] What is the basis for the decision on Harbor
[1:12:08] Harborside? Do you remember?
[1:12:11] Basis, but again, I will distinguish it from Harborside.
[1:12:14] I will distinguish it from Harborside.
[1:12:16] And that Harborside was a commercial
[1:12:19] building in a commercial.
[1:12:21] I I know what it, a commercial. I know what it was.
[1:12:23] I'm asking you if you knew what the, the basis
[1:12:26] for the decision was. That
[1:12:27] The, the, and You've
[1:12:28] Referenced it.
[1:12:29] The fact is is that the fact is the signs were too small
[1:12:31] for the area that it was in.
[1:12:33] It was an unnecessary hardship upon it created an
[1:12:35] unnecessary hardship upon that particular lot in
[1:12:39] that particular situation. Again,
[1:12:41] My recollection is the decision rendered around the fact
[1:12:44] that it didn't change the character of the neighborhood.
[1:12:47] And that's the focus of the four
[1:12:48] of the other prongs that you're getting at.
[1:12:50] Which is the argument I'm waiting for you to make.
[1:12:52] Does it change the characteristics of the neighborhood?
[1:12:55] I will. Does this sign?
[1:12:56] Of course it does. In which way?
[1:12:59] It's an oversized commercial sign. See,
[1:13:01] I I don't care about the sign the size.
[1:13:03] It was, that was part of the issue with Harborside.
[1:13:06] What, how does this sign set back from the road
[1:13:09] as it is affect the characteristics of the neighborhood?
[1:13:13] It is the only oversized commercial sign
[1:13:17] on Hampstead Road being
[1:13:18] The only sign.
[1:13:19] Like that is not the only reason
[1:13:22] that it changes the characteristics of the neighborhood.
[1:13:25] And that's the argument right now.
[1:13:26] I'm waiting for you to make the argument I made,
[1:13:29] I made the reference that three miles down the road there's
[1:13:31] another similar sign just like this.
[1:13:34] And if you come east or
[1:13:35] or west of that, there's another sign similar to that.
[1:13:38] But they're spread out and they're given acceptance.
[1:13:41] One because it's not within the, the parameters
[1:13:44] of the community and the other
[1:13:46] because of the dating of, of the establishment
[1:13:49] that's been there for 200 years.
[1:13:52] So these are all the special exceptions that,
[1:13:54] that the court grants this board the, the ability to,
[1:13:58] to find relief when it's being asked for.
[1:14:01] And you still haven't been able to identify what the focus
[1:14:05] of Harborside was, which is,
[1:14:07] it's in its district three in Portsmouth.
[1:14:09] The hotel next to it is in district four, but it didn't,
[1:14:13] but the signs don't change the
[1:14:15] characteristic of the neighborhood.
[1:14:16] And that's the focus of the argument
[1:14:18] and that's what case law supports.
[1:14:21] The fact of the matter is, is is
[1:14:23] that the sign three miles down the road,
[1:14:25] it's in a different town.
[1:14:26] I already said that. Okay. So how does, how does
[1:14:28] that affect my residential area?
[1:14:30] But you do see that out there and you,
[1:14:32] and it's not up to me to prove to you that it's going
[1:14:35] to affect your residential area.
[1:14:37] It's up for you to establish that it will
[1:14:40] No, it's up to him to prove
[1:14:42] that it doesn't affect the residential area. But you
[1:14:45] Are the abutter and you're supposed to make
[1:14:47] that case for yourself.
[1:14:49] And I don't think you have yet,
[1:14:51] and I'm just being fair about this,
[1:14:52] You're not being fair at all.
[1:14:54] Okay? You're not being fair at all.
[1:14:55] You bring up a sign that's in a different town.
[1:14:58] How does that affect my zoning?
[1:15:00] It goes to the sporadicness of that road
[1:15:03] and the, the design of that road,
[1:15:06] which you asked me about 10 minutes ago, what that had to do
[1:15:09] with, with this question.
[1:15:11] Again, I don't understand how,
[1:15:14] Alright, Mr.
[1:15:15] Chair, I don't understand how
[1:15:17] I yield Mr. Donlan
[1:15:19] If I'm not mistaken.
[1:15:20] Isn't there a ho a horse property like within a quarter mile
[1:15:24] of this property that has a sign on the street so that
[1:15:29] Not back lit or oversized?
[1:15:31] Well, I I don't know how exacting the oversized is.
[1:15:34] Can you define what oversized is somewhere?
[1:15:37] Yeah. The, the, the zoning ordinance allows certain signs,
[1:15:41] allows certain variances.
[1:15:43] Now that sign that's there has been there for as long
[1:15:46] as I have been in dairy, which is now 26 years.
[1:15:51] So to characterize an oversized sign
[1:15:55] as being oversized simply
[1:15:56] because there is no dimensions
[1:15:59] for the sign seems somewhat arbitrary to me.
[1:16:04] 'cause you can't reference it as an
[1:16:05] oversized commercial sign.
[1:16:06] If you want to reference it to the residential sign size
[1:16:12] Within the zoning ordinances, there is a, there are rules
[1:16:17] for how large the signs can be.
[1:16:19] Right? Okay. And for him to grant a variance
[1:16:23] to put a commercial sign in there
[1:16:25] that doesn't meet those means that that sign is oversized.
[1:16:30] It means that the sign's not allowed.
[1:16:31] That's why he's here for the variance.
[1:16:36] Yes. So I'll again say that he's asking
[1:16:39] to put out oversized backlit sign
[1:16:42] in a residential neighborhood.
[1:16:45] So is the backlit part is a,
[1:16:47] is a contention to you as well?
[1:16:50] Yes. Okay. It's a huge contention.
[1:16:52] That's what shines into my house at night.
[1:16:55] What if it was a flagpole?
[1:16:58] I don't know how that's relevant.
[1:17:00] It would be lit, wouldn't it?
[1:17:03] I don't know how that's relevant.
[1:17:05] Well, if the light is offensive,
[1:17:06] would the light of a flat, I think would Mr.
[1:17:08] I don't want it would, would be lit with the light.
[1:17:10] It's in a residential neighborhood. I'm just trying
[1:17:12] to get the context of it.
[1:17:14] Is this like a, a beam of light in your house
[1:17:16] or is it just ambient light?
[1:17:19] It's flashes in my house.
[1:17:20] We'll be presenting pictures that show you
[1:17:22] what the sign looks like from my bed.
[1:17:25] I have that packet for the, for the, for the board.
[1:17:28] Very good. Mr. Trip, did you have a question?
[1:17:34] I think you gestured earlier.
[1:17:35] Well, I was, I've heard the same sad story
[1:17:40] and that might be a little contentious over and over again.
[1:17:45] What I'm interested in
[1:17:47] and is, you know, a a,
[1:17:51] a brief succinct, you know,
[1:17:56] listing of what is wrong with the sign.
[1:18:00] And once you, I believe you told us that several times,
[1:18:04] so I believe, I understand why you don't want to sign,
[1:18:09] but we've seemed to got into the
[1:18:14] back and forth, back and forth, back
[1:18:16] and forth, so, you know, I understand why you think
[1:18:20] this is a bad idea,
[1:18:22] but I'd like to hear the rest of the people that are here
[1:18:25] to testify, to find out what their thoughts are.
[1:18:30] Fine. I bring up one other thing about the sporadic nature
[1:18:33] of whatever the signs I point you to parole versus the town
[1:18:38] of New Hampton, the zoning board.
[1:18:40] By granting the variance without bird, meaning any
[1:18:43] of the burdens for granting a variance could lead
[1:18:45] to the installation of other commercial signs,
[1:18:47] oversized commercial size, resented districts,
[1:18:50] and that those opposed the variance are rightfully concerned
[1:18:52] by the cumulative effect
[1:18:54] of similar variances in the neighborhood
[1:18:58] For all versus New Hampton.
[1:19:00] I will hand in the, i I have the memo that I'll put in
[1:19:03] with my packet that I'm giving you folks.
[1:19:06] So it is, it's New Hampshire, it's
[1:19:08] parole versus the town of New Hampton.
[1:19:20] You wish to have handouts for us, Mr. Foley?
[1:19:23] I do You have enough for everybody?
[1:19:27] I do. Alright,
[1:19:28] Ms.
[1:19:29] Zan, would you receive those for me please?
[1:19:33] I chair You wanna make a motion to accept testimony? Yes.
[1:19:36] If you'd like the, the applicant,
[1:19:39] the abutters don't have the same
[1:19:40] restrictions. The applicant.
[1:19:42] Okay. And then the last thing is about
[1:19:46] complaints to the zoning board.
[1:19:48] The ruling came down on the 31st of December.
[1:19:53] I met with the code enforcement officer on the
[1:19:59] 28th of February in regards to the sign and the back lit
[1:20:03] and the light and the complaints about
[1:20:04] that and made that complaint.
[1:20:06] Met with her in person.
[1:20:09] Can I what Would you like? Thank you.
[1:20:12] Wait, I, I want, I've written down the two things
[1:20:18] that I believe you are concerned
[1:20:20] about with this sign.
[1:20:24] Number one, it's an outsized commercial sign in
[1:20:29] a residential zone.
[1:20:30] Is that correct? That's
[1:20:32] Correct.
[1:20:33] It's a back lit sign with a light on all night.
[1:20:38] Is that correct? That's
[1:20:39] Correct.
[1:20:40] Is there anything else Now that we see? Yes.
[1:20:44] I mean that's, that's the point now that it's there.
[1:20:46] Okay, so those two things are what is wrong.
[1:20:50] The fact is, is that now that the sign is there,
[1:20:54] we're all very aware of what the sign now looks
[1:20:56] like and it's
[1:20:57] So the sign is offensive Sign's offensive? Yes.
[1:21:01] Okay. That, I'll write that down.
[1:21:04] When we just had this discussion last time,
[1:21:07] we had the hearing before the sign was a hypothetical.
[1:21:10] It's no longer hypothetical. Okay.
[1:21:12] Could you elaborate on why the sign is offensive?
[1:21:18] It's 50 square feet backlit sign.
[1:21:21] So it's an outsized commercial sign? Yes.
[1:21:23] That's why it's offensive. That
[1:21:26] Interferes with my enjoyment of my property.
[1:21:33] The sign interferes with your enjoyment.
[1:21:35] It's a visual, it's a visual interference with my use
[1:21:39] of my property and my house.
[1:21:43] Your house is almost, it's over 400 feet away.
[1:21:47] You have pictures in front of you
[1:21:48] that shows you the picture of the sign
[1:21:49] from the window of my bedroom.
[1:21:51] But it is over 400 feet away
[1:21:54] And it's clearly visible.
[1:21:56] And anytime that this, that this board would like to do a,
[1:22:00] a view, feel free.
[1:22:03] I just note that earlier Mr.
[1:22:04] Tripp asked for, for how far away the,
[1:22:07] the sign was from the building and it was 300 feet.
[1:22:10] And it was hard to, to, it was not hard to see.
[1:22:13] I mean, you could see the building, right?
[1:22:16] But understanding what's on the building
[1:22:18] or what's at the building would be difficult.
[1:22:21] Otherwise the church would've probably had Holy Cross
[1:22:24] Church on the building.
[1:22:26] Right. I mean, I'm just seeing
[1:22:28] that parallel. You're, you're,
[1:22:30] I don't understand what you're saying.
[1:22:32] Well, I, that's probably convenient,
[1:22:33] but I'm no, I'm, I'm looking at the comparison between Mr.
[1:22:38] Trip's question about to the applicant about
[1:22:40] how far away the building was from the road signs on their
[1:22:43] building and the fact that you're,
[1:22:46] you're a little further away from that and,
[1:22:48] and it's affecting your quality of life.
[1:22:51] And again, I I'd I would, I would ask for you
[1:22:54] to articulate exactly what you're saying.
[1:22:56] What does the sign being 300 feet from the, from the
[1:23:01] building have to do with my house?
[1:23:04] With my question to you, which is
[1:23:06] how is it really affecting your quality of life?
[1:23:09] You can see the sign from my house.
[1:23:13] You can see the sign from inside my house
[1:23:16] and you can shake your head all you want.
[1:23:17] No, I'm just, that's, that's,
[1:23:18] that's the simple, that's the simple fact.
[1:23:20] And you've been provided with pictures of what that is
[1:23:22] and you provided with more pictures with other people
[1:23:25] that are coming up after me.
[1:23:27] But the simple fact of the matter is the what is between,
[1:23:31] you know, the distance between the, the sign and the road
[1:23:34] and all that sort of stuff isn't important.
[1:23:38] What's important is the applicant has not met any
[1:23:42] of the burdens to be granted a variance.
[1:23:46] It's your opinion. Alright, so
[1:23:48] What's Up?
[1:23:49] Well, I don't think we're there yet.
[1:23:49] We haven't made a decision.
[1:23:51] Well, I understand that,
[1:23:52] but I I I find it hard to believe
[1:23:54] that simply removing the message center changes any
[1:23:59] Alright.
[1:24:00] Of the hardship of the, the lack of hardship
[1:24:04] that the court found in their December 31st ruling.
[1:24:08] Okay, So I, can I go back to my list of things that
[1:24:15] are a problem with the sign?
[1:24:17] Okay, so we got it's outsized commercial sign
[1:24:21] and a residential zone.
[1:24:23] It's back lit. So the lights are on all the night
[1:24:26] and you can see it.
[1:24:30] And the sign is offensive in that it disturbs your enjoyment
[1:24:34] of the property because you can see it from Hi,
[1:24:37] your house. Alright,
[1:24:39] From inside my house.
[1:24:40] From inside your house. Alright. Is that it?
[1:24:45] Sure. Thank you.
[1:24:47] I don't, I don't, I'm really quite unsure
[1:24:49] what point you're trying to drive at.
[1:24:50] The fact of the matter is,
[1:24:53] I, it's, it's, it's, no, no, I, it's a public news.
[1:24:55] It's, it's fine. Yeah, that's fine.
[1:24:57] So I, I probably heard what you wanna say
[1:25:00] six times already tonight.
[1:25:03] Hopefully it gets through to you.
[1:25:06] Thank you. Thank You.
[1:25:18] Oh boy.
[1:25:32] You may want to try
[1:25:33] and pull that a little closer for the board if you're trying
[1:25:36] to show that to the board.
[1:25:39] Thank you Ms. Z. Very good. Can everybody see that Mr.
[1:25:44] Donlin? You all right there Mr. Sca? Sure. Yes. I apologize.
[1:25:48] We actually need that for camera placement.
[1:25:50] We're gonna bring it up on the screen for
[1:25:51] You.
[1:25:52] Perfect. Okay, nice. Thank you. Even better.
[1:25:55] Andrew Roja, 1 64 Hampstead Road Dairy.
[1:26:03] I have a prepared statement
[1:26:05] and then I would like to speak to some of what we're heard,
[1:26:09] we've heard tonight, if that's okay with you.
[1:26:11] Sure. To just,
[1:26:14] Just try and stay on point though. Okay.
[1:26:16] I'll do my best. Keep Away from the mud slinging.
[1:26:19] I'll do my best. Mr. Perkins and members of the board.
[1:26:24] I'd like to frame my comments in light
[1:26:26] of the recent New Hampshire Superior Court case,
[1:26:28] Foley versus the zone zoning board of town of Derry,
[1:26:33] the court reversed the prior variance outright.
[1:26:36] It found that the applicant did not meet the statutory
[1:26:39] requirement of unnecessary hardship under RSA
[1:26:43] 6 74 33, which requires
[1:26:46] that hardship arise from special conditions
[1:26:48] of the property itself, not the owner's business needs.
[1:26:51] The applicant argued
[1:26:52] that three factors created special conditions,
[1:26:56] one distance from the road the building is set back,
[1:26:59] but the court found no evidence that complying
[1:27:01] with the ordinances sign size
[1:27:03] or lighting limits imposed in unnecessary hardship.
[1:27:06] The setback alone does not justify a larger
[1:27:10] illuminated sign.
[1:27:11] Two trees surrounding the property.
[1:27:14] Many were planted by the applicant.
[1:27:16] The court emphasized
[1:27:18] that self-created conditions cannot establish hardship.
[1:27:21] Simply having trees does not legally justify
[1:27:24] exceeding sign limits.
[1:27:26] Three nature of the business
[1:27:28] operating a permitted commercial business does not create a
[1:27:31] special condition of the land.
[1:27:34] The court rejected the argument that the sign was necessary
[1:27:37] for business viability.
[1:27:39] Hardship must relate to the property itself,
[1:27:41] not the owner's operational needs
[1:27:43] because none of these factors constitute a
[1:27:46] legally sufficient hardship.
[1:27:47] The court concluded
[1:27:48] that the variance should have been denied at
[1:27:50] the town ZBA level.
[1:27:52] The current application still seeks relief from the same
[1:27:55] ordinance provisions regarding size, lighting and placement.
[1:27:59] Those requirements remain in effect
[1:28:01] and the legal standard has not changed.
[1:28:04] Additionally, the sign has remained in place
[1:28:06] for over three months after the court's ruling
[1:28:09] that it is unlawful.
[1:28:10] A pending application does not make a
[1:28:13] non-compliant structure.
[1:28:14] Lawful zoning enforcement depends on applicants following
[1:28:18] the rules while seeking relief
[1:28:21] and continuing to maintain a structure already found
[1:28:23] unlawful raises concerns about future compliance
[1:28:27] granting a variance is an exercise of discretion and trust.
[1:28:31] It allows an exception to rules that apply to everyone else.
[1:28:35] It is reasonable for the board to consider whether
[1:28:37] that discretion is being sought in good faith
[1:28:40] and with a willingness to comply with the outcome.
[1:28:43] For all these reasons, I respectfully request
[1:28:45] that the board deny the variance request.
[1:28:54] I have also brought along a copy of a letter of opposition
[1:28:59] to the electronic signage that was done in June
[1:29:03] of 2025 for the prior variance.
[1:29:06] This has 20 signatures, as you know, of people
[1:29:09] who live within approximately a five minute walk
[1:29:12] of where the sign is.
[1:29:14] I'd like to submit that into
[1:29:16] the official record. If I could.
[1:29:18] We'll take it for the record. You have one copy, I assume
[1:29:21] I I do only have one copy on,
[1:29:22] So I want you'd like to confiscate that.
[1:29:24] That would be fine. Thank you.
[1:29:27] Understanding that that is to be clear, that is the petition
[1:29:31] that was signed last summer not correct for this current.
[1:29:35] Correct. Correct.
[1:29:36] It it was signed for a,
[1:29:42] yeah, for the previous application. So
[1:29:45] Here's, here's the problem that we run into
[1:29:47] with a petition in these matters.
[1:29:50] And I realize we went through it last year,
[1:29:53] but these folks need to be able
[1:29:58] to emphasize how they're aggrieved by
[1:30:03] a decision of this board.
[1:30:05] And case law also will suggest that just
[1:30:08] because they're a taxpayer doesn't mean
[1:30:10] that they have standing in the matter, which is why
[1:30:13] automatically direct abutters are the ones
[1:30:16] that are noticed on this.
[1:30:17] And it's not a it, it is a formal notice.
[1:30:20] The clerk puts out it's advertised as per statute.
[1:30:25] But without that understanding of how these folks,
[1:30:28] and I think we asked Mr. Foley the same Mr.
[1:30:32] Trip and myself trying to get
[1:30:35] definitive on his explanations relative to the,
[1:30:39] the criteria, how exactly those were going
[1:30:43] to affect in those matters.
[1:30:45] Right. And so we run into the same problem
[1:30:48] with this petition is that we don't really know who they are
[1:30:51] and we don't know where their surroundings are.
[1:30:55] If they're within a quarter of a mile
[1:30:57] and they never drive by this, they have to,
[1:30:59] this is just an example.
[1:31:00] They have to define how they're agg grieved
[1:31:02] by the board's decision. You follow?
[1:31:04] I do. Alright, I'll just set that aside
[1:31:06] and, and let you proceed.
[1:31:07] Thank you. A lot of
[1:31:11] what Mr. Foley was talking about with regards to it being
[1:31:16] offensive and a visual intrusion has to do
[1:31:20] with how bright these signs are.
[1:31:23] If you would look at the top left two images, you can see
[1:31:28] both their currently approved building signs that
[1:31:32] what we affectionately call the beacon tower at home.
[1:31:36] The signs are extremely bright.
[1:31:40] I took out my, my phone and just snapped two pictures.
[1:31:43] Those have no playing around with settings, nothing.
[1:31:47] That's just raw pictures. That's how bright these signs are.
[1:31:51] And I don't know if it has
[1:31:58] occurred to this board
[1:31:59] that when Mr. Foley was talking about the visual intrusions,
[1:32:02] he's talking about something that is that bright.
[1:32:06] These are, I mean look at the ground
[1:32:11] underneath the, the pylon sign.
[1:32:14] It is like somebody has a spotlight
[1:32:16] pointing down at the ground.
[1:32:19] They are, in my opinion, ridiculous.
[1:32:23] Furthermore, some nights. Is that actually the spotlight?
[1:32:28] It it, yeah. Yeah. So furthermore, some nights we've noticed
[1:32:33] that the signs have for some reason been off.
[1:32:35] It seems somewhat intermittent
[1:32:37] when they're on, when they're off.
[1:32:38] Usually they're on all night.
[1:32:40] But I did go one one night at 11:40 PM
[1:32:45] this was March 23rd I believe that says,
[1:32:49] and they just have spotlights pointing into the air
[1:32:51] instead of the signs.
[1:32:53] Again, you know,
[1:32:54] talking about visual intrusions from this business
[1:32:57] and talking about, you know, what I referenced at the end
[1:33:02] of my speech, which is, you know, discretion and trust and,
[1:33:05] and wondering, you know,
[1:33:09] about frankly Mr.
[1:33:11] KO's ability to follow the rules that have been laid down
[1:33:15] for him already before they were struck down.
[1:33:19] You know, thi this is what we've been dealing with
[1:33:21] and this is why to a great extent we're
[1:33:24] so upset about all of this at this point.
[1:33:29] On the right hand quadrant of the sign he, sorry,
[1:33:32] of my display here you'll see two photos,
[1:33:36] one just zoomed in, one zoomed out of their current sign,
[1:33:39] which again I would like
[1:33:40] to point out is they're currently unlawfully,
[1:33:44] it has been unlawful since the beginning of this year,
[1:33:46] the first day of this year.
[1:33:47] It has been unlawful since then.
[1:33:51] That is what it currently looks like without their
[1:33:53] electronic messaging center.
[1:33:55] This is what they're applying for, A variance for.
[1:33:57] It is a 50 square foot sign.
[1:34:00] Interestingly, during our last
[1:34:03] sessions here at the ZBA talking about these signs,
[1:34:07] everybody at the ZBA seemed to agree
[1:34:11] that 24 square feet was the legal limit without
[1:34:15] having to have a variance.
[1:34:16] I'm not sure why that conversation appears
[1:34:19] to have changed today,
[1:34:22] but that was what we talked about
[1:34:23] that entire time was 24 square feet.
[1:34:26] And with that in mind, the bottom two images, I
[1:34:31] went ahead and I actually created renders of
[1:34:34] what his sign could look like following within the
[1:34:39] legal ordinance to my understanding
[1:34:40] of 24 square feet and unlit.
[1:34:43] And frankly, I think that the signs are beautiful.
[1:34:46] I know that's my opinion 'cause I made the renders.
[1:34:48] But you know, frankly, those do a very,
[1:34:52] very fantastic job in my opinion of conveying
[1:34:56] what his business is
[1:34:58] and letting people who are driving by these signs,
[1:35:00] which are a mere 10 feet away from the road on a
[1:35:04] very open lot.
[1:35:05] He has a a, a good amount
[1:35:07] of road frontage that is open there.
[1:35:11] You know, in my opinion, those do a great job of conveying
[1:35:14] what his business is.
[1:35:15] And we don't, again, my opinion,
[1:35:18] need this giant 50 square foot sign
[1:35:21] that is very out of character.
[1:35:24] Aside from the fact that at night it is lit up like the sun
[1:35:30] Is the, on the upper left corner, is that a,
[1:35:35] what kind of light is that? Do you know?
[1:35:38] It's, Is that just a spotlight? I I know,
[1:35:41] Sorry.
[1:35:42] The, the very upper left. Yep.
[1:35:43] The, that No, that's his, that's his sign.
[1:35:46] That's his building sign that says NEA.
[1:35:49] Well we, I don't think we put any conditions relative
[1:35:52] to the building signs for lighting.
[1:35:55] I don't know that we did or we didn't.
[1:35:57] Yeah, you did. You asked
[1:35:58] that they follow the town's general ordinance, which is
[1:36:01] for essentially just over ambient at any given time. Okay.
[1:36:05] It does look like there may be a spotlight on the
[1:36:07] roof photo.
[1:36:09] Well I'm thinking it's the airport, but I don't
[1:36:12] Know.
[1:36:13] No, no, no. The, the,
[1:36:14] the bottom right image does show those are actual lights
[1:36:17] mounted on his roof. Bottom
[1:36:19] Left. Sorry,
[1:36:20] Sorry.
[1:36:21] Bottom left. Yeah, those are, those are on his roof.
[1:36:23] Are those Christmas lights?
[1:36:25] I don't know what kind of light other than
[1:36:27] that They're mounted on his roof.
[1:36:29] You can actually see them if you look just under what used
[1:36:32] to be the steeple tower, you can see the
[1:36:34] black blob right there.
[1:36:35] That is the light itself for one of those. Got
[1:36:38] It.
[1:36:39] Okay. I see it. Yep. Thank you Mr. Corbert.
[1:36:41] Oh, okay. I have a question for you. So
[1:36:43] Sorry Mr.
[1:36:44] Trip. Can I ask one question
[1:36:44] about the spotlight before you go?
[1:36:45] Sure. Mr.
[1:36:46] Would it be, I'm not familiar with the spotlight portion.
[1:36:49] Do you rec recollect seeing it there when the,
[1:36:52] like did it used to light up the steeple?
[1:36:54] Were they perhaps existing it? Yeah,
[1:36:56] I believe that it did back then.
[1:36:58] Yeah. Okay. Not that it necessarily right now.
[1:37:00] It serves no purpose in the middle
[1:37:01] of the night though. Nope.
[1:37:02] Alright. Don't disagree with that. Yeah.
[1:37:05] If I may just stand up and I have a question for you.
[1:37:08] Oh, go right ahead.
[1:37:10] The, the middle photo on the top,
[1:37:16] that's your rendering?
[1:37:19] No, mid the, the bottom right two are my renders.
[1:37:23] And those are 24 square
[1:37:25] Feet?
[1:37:26] Those are 24 square feet. Those, yes.
[1:37:28] Look at my screen. Oh, You
[1:37:31] Don't have those?
[1:37:32] As, as unlit signs in our neighborhood,
[1:37:34] in my opinion would be beautiful as simple unlit signs.
[1:37:39] And to that point, we discussed a few different signs
[1:37:45] during your discussion with Mr. Foley.
[1:37:47] And I'd like to illustrate those for this board. If I may.
[1:37:51] I actually have a, a portable projector, so if you,
[1:37:55] if you don't mind, I'm gonna show it
[1:37:57] right on the wall right there.
[1:37:58] These are signs. Ah,
[1:38:00] I think, is That okay?
[1:38:01] It's allowed. I think you may need to check
[1:38:03] with Mr to make
[1:38:04] Sure.
[1:38:05] I'm not sure if we can capture it. We could, we could try.
[1:38:07] Okay. It's bright enough.
[1:38:13] This is the sign that was referenced right down the road.
[1:38:16] This is the horse, the horse business.
[1:38:21] It is again, less than 24 square feet. It is unlit.
[1:38:26] Mr. Chair, before, before we go too much, we, we,
[1:38:29] we can't hear the gentleman and we can't see can you
[1:38:32] Use the microphone as you, We, we also have no way
[1:38:36] to capture that projection.
[1:38:38] Okay. If there's a file,
[1:38:39] we could get it into our computer system here. Yeah. Got
[1:38:42] It.
[1:38:43] So this is at that horse business right down the road.
[1:38:46] And it was referenced earlier in this meeting.
[1:38:49] It's a simple sign.
[1:38:50] It's definitely less than 24 square feet.
[1:38:53] It is unlit, it fits the character of our neighborhood.
[1:38:58] Additionally, we talked about how
[1:39:01] for some reason this is now considered to be a school.
[1:39:04] This is right in our back neighborhood.
[1:39:07] This is the sign for East Derry Memorial Elementary School.
[1:39:12] Again, less than 24 square feet,
[1:39:14] unlit reasonable fits in our neighborhood.
[1:39:17] I mean, this is a carved wooden sign.
[1:39:19] It's beautiful for East Derry. Right.
[1:39:21] Okay. So I'm gonna hold you up there, Mr. Roche.
[1:39:23] 'cause we have a tech technical problem.
[1:39:26] Images shown on the wall. Mr.
[1:39:28] Preventers indicate you can't pick it up. Yeah,
[1:39:30] That's right.
[1:39:31] Mr. Chair, if you've got some files,
[1:39:32] we could bring them into the system
[1:39:33] and bring 'em up onto the screen.
[1:39:35] Sure. We're just not able to capture,
[1:39:36] I email you right now.
[1:39:37] Just in the interest of the board, is there any board member
[1:39:40] that did not see that?
[1:39:42] Everybody saw it. Okay.
[1:39:43] Okay. And I have one more photo.
[1:39:45] We, you also talked earlier about the
[1:39:50] old, just gimme one second.
[1:39:52] The old church sign being 30 feet long,
[1:39:55] it definitively was not, this is the old church sign.
[1:39:58] It was maybe 10 feet long and that's being generous.
[1:40:03] It was also not four feet off the ground.
[1:40:06] It was maybe two feet off the ground.
[1:40:08] This was again, a small reasonable sign
[1:40:11] that fits in our neighborhood.
[1:40:12] It was a wooden sign that fits in East DER's atmosphere.
[1:40:18] This is what we're arguing for
[1:40:20] is every other sign in our vicinity has a,
[1:40:24] a feel it has a motif.
[1:40:26] It's reasonable. These signs that
[1:40:33] are being asked for
[1:40:34] In this Mr.
[1:40:35] Chair, if we're gonna continue with the projector, I,
[1:40:36] I would suggest perhaps we take a minute
[1:40:38] and reorient, we do have a white space up on the board,
[1:40:42] but the, we're just not able to capture this
[1:40:43] and we're not picking up the, the voice of the gentleman.
[1:40:47] Is that it for you Mr. Roge on that with your phone?
[1:40:50] It, yeah, it is. I I I think
[1:40:52] that I've hopefully made my point that, you know,
[1:40:57] simply put, there are signs that we've talked about
[1:41:01] that are in our neighborhood that are reasonable
[1:41:04] for our neighborhood and the sign that's being requested.
[1:41:08] And when I say requested, it's already there illegally,
[1:41:11] but the sign that is being requested
[1:41:14] does not fit in with them.
[1:41:15] It is not one of them.
[1:41:17] Well, understanding that, you know, hold your thought Mr.
[1:41:19] Tripp is that the sign was put in under the authorization
[1:41:22] of the board and it did have a permit to a contrary to
[1:41:26] what we have heard already spoken.
[1:41:30] Let me just cover technically Mr.
[1:41:32] Venture, other these images that he's shown.
[1:41:35] Do you feel that we need
[1:41:37] to have those download? Do you want I'll give
[1:41:39] That to your discretion if you would want
[1:41:41] to have them clearly on, on the record,
[1:41:43] on the video recording. Alright. I'm
[1:41:44] Gonna defer to the board.
[1:41:46] Held your thought. Mr. Trip. Mr. Corbett. I
[1:41:48] I think just for the dot i's cross t's I think,
[1:41:52] I think the board is all very familiar with the signs Mr.
[1:41:55] Shared. However, I think we should make a motion to accept
[1:42:00] his email of the photos in for as official record.
[1:42:04] As official record. Thank you Mr. Rabba.
[1:42:06] Mrs. Owen. To Mrs. Owen, you, you would email Yes
[1:42:09] To Mrs.
[1:42:10] Do you have Mrs. Ms Owen's email not being provided?
[1:42:13] I don't, I have it loaded here.
[1:42:14] I'm happy to just hand her my phone to email it to her.
[1:42:16] Oh, perfect. And then we'll file that into the record.
[1:42:19] Richard, we'll go to you next.
[1:42:21] All right, Do need
[1:42:24] Anything?
[1:42:25] Mr. Trip has question.
[1:42:27] Do you need a second memo motion? So Mr. Rose?
[1:42:29] Yes, sir. Hold on. Mr. Trip. Mr. Corbett made a motion.
[1:42:33] Thank you. Mr. Corbett. Could I have a second please?
[1:42:35] Second. Thank you Mr. Trip. All in favor of Mr.
[1:42:37] Corbett's motion on the download?
[1:42:40] Yes. The, the acceptance of the photos. All
[1:42:42] All in favor of those say aye.
[1:42:44] Aye. Any opposed? Hearing none. Thank you Mr. Tripp.
[1:42:48] All right. Like I did with Mr. Foley, I I'm trying
[1:42:53] to ascertain what exactly is,
[1:42:57] is wrong with the signs.
[1:42:58] And I believe I already understand from your testimony,
[1:43:02] but I'd like to, you know, repeat it back to you so
[1:43:07] that I can be certain that that's what the,
[1:43:11] what's the facts of the matter.
[1:43:13] Alright. You've, you've,
[1:43:18] you've shown the signs that you rendered
[1:43:21] and your, your interest is in that
[1:43:28] the signs, if there were to be signs,
[1:43:31] and you have indicated that if the signs were
[1:43:34] to your specifications, that you would be in favor of that
[1:43:39] To, to the town's specification
[1:43:41] of 24 square feet and unlit.
[1:43:43] Not my specifications. Okay.
[1:43:45] Yeah. So, so if,
[1:43:49] and you have two signs.
[1:43:51] I, I I just made two renders. Just, okay.
[1:43:53] Yeah. So, so two signs would be acceptable.
[1:43:57] No, those, those are two signs in the same exact location.
[1:44:01] Two different options, two different visuals,
[1:44:04] but one sign in place.
[1:44:06] Oh, so 20, you would, you would limit the signage to
[1:44:11] 1 24 foot square or 2024 cubic.
[1:44:16] Again, my my understanding is the
[1:44:17] ordinance limits it. Yes.
[1:44:19] Alright, so it would be a single sign
[1:44:25] at
[1:44:25] 24 square feet.
[1:44:32] I believe so. I don't know if the ordinance allows
[1:44:35] for two 12 square foot signs
[1:44:37] or only 1 24 square foot, but yes.
[1:44:39] No. Well, let's, let's determine that
[1:44:42] 1 24 foot square would be acceptable first.
[1:44:47] Right. And then we can stretch the Sure.
[1:44:51] To where possibly, you know,
[1:44:54] a a 24 foot square
[1:45:00] sign unlit is acceptable.
[1:45:03] Right. You know,
[1:45:04] and as he has
[1:45:08] essentially two businesses there, it would be,
[1:45:12] I believe justified that there would be two signs.
[1:45:15] I disagree wholeheartedly.
[1:45:17] It goes to the property, not the businesses.
[1:45:21] Just for, for argument's sake, if I may.
[1:45:23] So you, you're saying no. Well if, if,
[1:45:25] if I may's I can make That's okay.
[1:45:27] 10 LLCs at my property
[1:45:30] and then I could just put up 10 signs. Alright.
[1:45:33] 24 said feet.
[1:45:34] Well, I'm just trying to understand what it is that
[1:45:37] your desires are and I understand one sign
[1:45:42] so we don't have to go into, you know, half hour
[1:45:44] diatribe as to why.
[1:45:46] Yeah. A a again, though, I want to clarify my desire is
[1:45:50] that it follows the ordinance.
[1:45:53] Right? Well, as Chairman Perkins is already,
[1:45:57] you know, told you, you know,
[1:46:00] the reason we sit here is we have to determine whether,
[1:46:04] you know, there is any leeway in the ordinances
[1:46:08] for the app appellant, I mean the applicant to,
[1:46:13] to make him his needs, Matt too.
[1:46:15] So, you know, like I said, this is a compromise
[1:46:18] and I'm just trying to figure out what your desires are.
[1:46:23] 'cause I'm pretty sure I already know what the,
[1:46:25] the applicant's desires are, you know, so,
[1:46:28] and I, I believe I understand it now. Yes, thank you. Yes.
[1:46:31] Yeah. My desire specifically would be a 24 square foot
[1:46:36] or under of signage 10 feet
[1:46:40] or more from the road and unlit.
[1:46:43] Mr. Rj, if I can just piggyback off Mr.
[1:46:45] Trips, first one on your renderings, is that the same size,
[1:46:49] just further the image further away to depict?
[1:46:52] Or is the one on the left smaller than
[1:46:55] 20?
[1:46:56] Sorry, are you referring to the bottom
[1:46:56] bottom, the bottom right.
[1:46:57] My render, sorry. Yes. It, so, so I took a zoomed in
[1:47:01] and a zoomed out of his real sign.
[1:47:02] Yep. And then I provided you a render of the exact same,
[1:47:05] just zoomed in, zoomed out before looked like, thank you.
[1:47:08] Can I say something, Mr. Chair?
[1:47:10] Yes sir. Mr. Lusca.
[1:47:12] So I see a lot throughout everything that's been said
[1:47:17] and you know, one of the biggest things I feel like
[1:47:21] that you guys have said that it's a big issue is the, the,
[1:47:23] the light and how it illuminates
[1:47:27] when there was a 360 burial of the, what the property,
[1:47:32] it was hard to see any other properties in the vicinity.
[1:47:35] Now I know that once there's 400 feet away,
[1:47:40] I'm trying to think, I mean if we, if it were to prevail
[1:47:45] or whatever, if the light was turned off at a set time,
[1:47:49] like, you know, you see in movies where the,
[1:47:50] the basketball court automatically at
[1:47:52] nine o'clock it just shuts off.
[1:47:54] I'm trying to think of ways that it could work.
[1:47:56] And another thing that came
[1:47:57] to my mind was have you ever been driving down the road
[1:48:00] and then like you're listening to music
[1:48:02] but you can't find where you're trying to go,
[1:48:03] but you accidentally turn down the music
[1:48:05] so you think you can see better?
[1:48:06] Like, or am I just crazy?
[1:48:10] I'm trying to, like if it's the size of the, I dunno this,
[1:48:15] I'm squinting now.
[1:48:16] I'm just curious about the safety of cars
[1:48:18] that aren't familiar with the area
[1:48:22] and they're not really knowing where they're going
[1:48:23] and they're squinting and they're slowing down.
[1:48:28] So let me, let me help you out Ms. Luca.
[1:48:31] These, what you're commenting on is, part of
[1:48:34] what we're hearing is in a dispute now is
[1:48:36] that the lights appear to be on
[1:48:39] after what we had agreed on the former order.
[1:48:44] And so that's, your questions are relevant.
[1:48:48] I just want to help you out here with
[1:48:51] where you might be going.
[1:48:52] And that was the, the conditions
[1:48:53] that the board had set prior.
[1:48:56] We'll have an opportunity for the applicant
[1:48:58] to come back up and address that.
[1:49:01] And so that condition was originally established,
[1:49:05] but is still objected to even
[1:49:07] with the light coming off at a certain times.
[1:49:11] But proceed with any questions if you have them.
[1:49:15] I, I don't really necessarily have a question right now,
[1:49:18] so I'm trying to think. I'm sorry. No,
[1:49:20] It's all right.
[1:49:21] If I can, if I can speak a little bit to the, the idea
[1:49:25] of it turning off at a certain time.
[1:49:28] We have been down this road with our last ZBA approval
[1:49:32] that you guys did where you did require him to do this.
[1:49:36] He has failed to do it.
[1:49:38] I have pictures up here showing you
[1:49:40] that he has just ignored you.
[1:49:43] You know, Ms. Owen here, I spoke to her in person
[1:49:49] and I made a complaint about the lights being on,
[1:49:53] first of all, all night.
[1:49:55] And second of all, clearly far too bright for
[1:49:58] what the ordinance allows, where the ordinance allows,
[1:50:02] again, just over ambient is essentially what the,
[1:50:06] the numbers boil down to.
[1:50:08] And the responses that I got from her were sympathetic.
[1:50:12] I, I don't want to take away from you at all.
[1:50:14] However, she also said that one, it's hard for her to
[1:50:21] enforce the ordinance with, with regards to this
[1:50:23] because she doesn't work at night.
[1:50:26] And two, the town doesn't even own the equipment
[1:50:30] to measure the light output.
[1:50:32] So again, it's hard for her to enforce the ordinance,
[1:50:37] you know, so here we are with an applicant asking
[1:50:40] for an ordinance to keep a lit sign.
[1:50:43] Have after having already shown us
[1:50:46] that he doesn't care about what you impose on him in terms
[1:50:50] of his limits and then the town coming to me
[1:50:56] or, or when I go to the town, they say basically,
[1:50:58] well it's really hard for us to actually
[1:51:01] like forcibly enforce this.
[1:51:03] So, you know, how do we handle this again, you know,
[1:51:06] this comes to my speech
[1:51:07] where I ended it talking about an exercise in trust.
[1:51:10] Right. Frankly, I have none
[1:51:12] and I don't think you should either in the applicant, it's
[1:51:17] Okay.
[1:51:18] No. If I,
[1:51:19] I apologize if I'm opening this can of worms.
[1:51:23] My, and I was just looking through the conditions Mr.
[1:51:25] Je my, I don't dispute what we had discussed, the dimming,
[1:51:29] the, the hours, everything
[1:51:32] but my re I can't find it here so I apologize.
[1:51:34] My recollection, was it specifically tied
[1:51:37] to the message center though, or do you think there could be
[1:51:39] any, and I'm just asking the question,
[1:51:41] do you think there could be any misconception
[1:51:42] that it was tied directly to the electronic message center
[1:51:45] or was your recollection that it was very specifically
[1:51:47] to the entire pile pile on
[1:51:49] The, the entire ZBA process with that was very kind
[1:51:53] of hard to determine what we were talking about.
[1:51:57] There could have been misunderstanding on his end.
[1:52:01] I don't know. My interpretation of going through all of
[1:52:06] the minutes of it is that it is global
[1:52:10] and the town ordinance
[1:52:12] to my understanding also requires the lit
[1:52:15] signs to be turned off.
[1:52:17] So that understanding really
[1:52:18] shouldn't have been there if he had one. I'm
[1:52:21] Trying to justify it.
[1:52:22] Just, sorry, sorry to interrupt.
[1:52:23] Just trying to say, I'm hoping to find that it was just a
[1:52:25] Right, just a mistake.
[1:52:26] I'd like to add too, that in speaking to Ms. Owen,
[1:52:31] when I spoke to her in person again, she explained to me,
[1:52:36] you know, as I was asking
[1:52:37] for updates on basically why hasn't this sign been taken
[1:52:40] down yet, you know, it's been here illegally for this long.
[1:52:43] Her response was that she has stopped by his location
[1:52:48] and you know, knocked on the door.
[1:52:49] She has sent him letters, she has emailed him,
[1:52:52] she has called him and he ignores her at every turn.
[1:52:56] So, you know, a again,
[1:52:58] if we're talking about misunderstandings, if, if he had one,
[1:53:02] he sure tried real hard to avoid being corrected on it.
[1:53:07] Okay. My thought might be if we get to the end,
[1:53:11] maybe we end up tabling a decision to get accurate research
[1:53:15] as to what the prior orders were. Yeah.
[1:53:18] And definitely make sure it's clarified
[1:53:19] or anything is just identified.
[1:53:21] Okay. But I don't, yeah, I agree. Alright.
[1:53:23] May I ask a question, Mr. Darling?
[1:53:25] Is, we spoke on the lights and the size of the signs.
[1:53:29] Is there any particular aversion in your eyes
[1:53:34] to the style of the sign?
[1:53:36] I I notice your renderings were more of like a horizontal
[1:53:39] Yeah.
[1:53:41] You, you mean in terms of it being a
[1:53:45] More of a killer vertical? Yeah.
[1:53:49] A a pylon sign. Yeah. Right. Not, not necessarily.
[1:53:53] Honestly, when I went to make the renderings though,
[1:53:55] it just didn't make sense to have a pylon
[1:53:57] for 24 square feet.
[1:53:59] So I, I made them look more fitting
[1:54:04] to the size that is allowed.
[1:54:07] I don't know that I would object to a pylon itself as long
[1:54:09] as it, it was within the ordinance in terms of size
[1:54:12] and lack of lighting.
[1:54:17] Okay, thank you. So it I was just handed,
[1:54:22] sorry, I was just handed by multiple people documents
[1:54:26] that show that the variance was for the signs,
[1:54:31] not for the, that EMC,
[1:54:36] The DMC
[1:54:37] And one of them says,
[1:54:39] and this is directly out of the meeting minutes, Mr.
[1:54:44] Yanko said he would prefer the sign not
[1:54:47] to be lit 24 hours a day
[1:54:49] and planned to have them lit only when needed.
[1:54:53] So you know, out of KO's, Mr.
[1:54:56] KO's own words from the meeting minutes, you know,
[1:55:00] he says have them lit.
[1:55:02] So that indicates signage, not EMC.
[1:55:08] Okay. Thank you for that. Anything else Mr. Roge?
[1:55:14] I am all set if you are all set with me. Any
[1:55:17] Questions for Mr. Rose from anybody?
[1:55:19] Mr. Dietzel, you're awful quiet.
[1:55:21] I'm all set. Thank you Mr. Chair. All right, Mr.
[1:55:23] Bumba, anything? All set? How about you Mr. Dani?
[1:55:26] You all set? All right, very good. Thank you. Mr. Rose.
[1:55:29] Thank you all for your time. Anybody else?
[1:55:38] I'm being asked for some paperwork back.
[1:55:41] Okay. Just that.
[1:55:52] Hi there. Good evening. Good
[1:55:54] Evening.
[1:55:55] My name's Jessica Cloutier.
[1:55:57] I live at 1 64 Hampstead Road
[1:56:00] and I present, I have a statement that I prepared for
[1:56:04] This evening.
[1:56:05] Could you speak a little louder? Sorry.
[1:56:07] Sorry, I'm quiet. Can you hear me? Yep. Yep. Okay.
[1:56:12] So I oppose the 50 square foot pylon sign.
[1:56:15] Bird Enterprises has requested a variance floor
[1:56:21] For this variance to be granted.
[1:56:22] They must show that their proposal meets all five
[1:56:25] of the following conditions.
[1:56:26] Condition one. There shall be no decrease in the value
[1:56:30] of surrounding properties in the past.
[1:56:32] At June 19th, 2025 meeting abuts
[1:56:35] provided the board with a letter from a licensed real estate
[1:56:38] agent stating that their home value will be affected,
[1:56:42] but it was dismissed
[1:56:43] because it was their realtor's opinion
[1:56:44] that their home value would decrease.
[1:56:47] I don't know what proof the board was hoping for,
[1:56:49] but I think written opinion
[1:56:52] of a professional in the field should be enough.
[1:56:55] Like discussed in past meetings.
[1:56:57] Research can be found for both sides,
[1:57:00] but it's pr pretty obvious
[1:57:02] that property value decreases when a quiet residential area
[1:57:06] begins to look and feel commercial,
[1:57:08] which this type of sign will do.
[1:57:09] These backlit pylon signs are typically designed
[1:57:12] for commercial corridors, not neighborhoods.
[1:57:15] These signs cause a visual intrusion
[1:57:18] and change the character of the neighborhood.
[1:57:20] This is a neighborhood of historic homes
[1:57:22] and farms, not commercial businesses.
[1:57:25] Condition two, they must demonstrate that
[1:57:29] granting the variance would be in the public's interest
[1:57:32] when referring to the public's best interest.
[1:57:34] That also includes the abutters
[1:57:36] and everyone else in the surrounding neighborhoods.
[1:57:38] And we get no benefit from the private business.
[1:57:41] Installing a commercial sign, it brings light pollution,
[1:57:46] traffic, distraction, and disruption to a residential area.
[1:57:50] Public interest lies in preserving neighborhood character,
[1:57:54] not promoting commercial activity in a zone
[1:57:57] that's not meant for it.
[1:57:58] At the June 5th, 2025 meeting, the representative
[1:58:02] for Bird Enterprise stated this condition was met
[1:58:05] because clear signage would help
[1:58:08] secure the future of the business.
[1:58:10] I would have to disagree.
[1:58:12] Della hti has run a successful business
[1:58:15] for 18 years at their Wyndham location without them having
[1:58:18] to have an oversized sign.
[1:58:20] And this makes it clear to me
[1:58:22] that this is something they want for their convenience
[1:58:25] and not something they need to be successful.
[1:58:27] They have successfully operated at their Wyndham location
[1:58:30] for 18 years where they have had an external lit sign
[1:58:35] with a changeable letter sign
[1:58:37] where they can manually update the messages
[1:58:39] by swapping out the letters.
[1:58:41] And if you see at the bottom picture that I have over there,
[1:58:47] that is their old sign from their Wyndham location.
[1:58:51] This type of sign is more appropriate for East area
[1:58:54] where many other businesses use the same type
[1:58:56] of sign condition.
[1:58:59] Three, A hardship must exist,
[1:59:01] which is inherited in the land in question.
[1:59:04] They can make an argument that there is a hardship due
[1:59:07] to a commercial business being in a residential area,
[1:59:11] but he made the choice to move into this low,
[1:59:13] medium density residential district.
[1:59:15] Knowing this to be the case, choosing
[1:59:18] to locate a business in a residential
[1:59:20] district is not a hardship.
[1:59:22] It's a decision and not a physical constraint.
[1:59:25] A hardship must relate to the land itself,
[1:59:27] not the owner's desire to advertise more.
[1:59:30] No legitimate hardship exists.
[1:59:33] The business just wants better visibility,
[1:59:35] which is not grounds for a variance.
[1:59:38] It's been stated that they have a hardship due to location,
[1:59:41] but I do not believe the location is a hardship.
[1:59:44] Hampstead Road is a major roadway with many people driving
[1:59:47] by each day seeing this wide open lot,
[1:59:50] clearly showing what the business is.
[1:59:52] You can clearly see the northeast elite athletic signs on
[1:59:56] the building and the bays
[1:59:57] with landscaping materials in the parking
[1:59:59] lot condition.
[2:00:03] Four, by granting the variance substantial justice will be
[2:00:07] done at the June 5th, 2025 meeting.
[2:00:10] The representative for Bird Enterprise stated,
[2:00:12] substantial justice will be done to the owner
[2:00:15] by granting the variance.
[2:00:17] Signage is going to be a key element in the advertising
[2:00:20] and the success of this unique situation.
[2:00:23] Most facilities of this type are in zones
[2:00:26] that allow adequate signage.
[2:00:27] This is not end quote.
[2:00:29] At this time, I would like to bring your attention
[2:00:31] to the pictures I have brought along with me.
[2:00:34] These are the other facilities of this type that he refers
[2:00:37] to, to that, that are also located in dairy.
[2:00:41] Please note that all these landscaping and
[2:00:43] or nursery businesses have an ex, ex, sorry,
[2:00:48] externally lit sign with a changeable letter sign,
[2:00:51] which is the same type of sign
[2:00:53] that was at the Wyndham location.
[2:00:55] So I, I went around town and I located all the nurseries
[2:00:58] and all of them have these same types of signs.
[2:01:03] They don't have a backlit sign like he is requesting.
[2:01:09] One of these businesses is Spring Look Farm
[2:01:11] that is located at one 12 Island Pond Road here in Derry.
[2:01:15] And they have been in business for decades.
[2:01:18] They are on a more secluded road with a lot less traffic
[2:01:21] and their building is approximately 860 feet from the road
[2:01:26] and out of sight from the road.
[2:01:28] But they have managed
[2:01:29] to successfully stay in business all these years without
[2:01:32] a more modern sign.
[2:01:33] So why does Bird Enterprise need a 50 square foot back lit
[2:01:38] pylon sign to advertise his business when he is on a much
[2:01:41] busier road and only 300 feet from the road
[2:01:45] and is visible from the road,
[2:01:47] he would be the only nursery in town with this type of sign.
[2:01:51] If all these types of businesses in town have these types
[2:01:54] of signs that fit the character of this town,
[2:01:56] why does this location need such a oversized modern
[2:02:00] industrial type sign to draw people in now?
[2:02:04] Condition five. The use must not be contrary to the spirit
[2:02:07] and intent of the ordinance.
[2:02:09] The spirit of the ordinance is separate
[2:02:12] residential and commercial use.
[2:02:14] The ordinance is designed to promote the health and safety
[2:02:18] and welfare of residents granting this variance would under
[2:02:22] undermine the entire purpose of this residential zoning.
[2:02:26] So in conclusion, the applicant does not meet any
[2:02:29] of the five conditions required for variance.
[2:02:31] It would reduce surrounding property values.
[2:02:35] It does not serve the public's interest.
[2:02:37] No land-based hardship exists.
[2:02:40] It one sidedly favors one party over many
[2:02:43] and it clearly violates the purpose
[2:02:44] and intent of the zoning ordinance.
[2:02:47] For these reasons, I respectfully urge the board
[2:02:49] to deny the 50 square foot pile and sign
[2:02:52] and this residential district
[2:02:54] and urge the applicant to rethink the type of sign for
[2:02:57] that location and go for one
[2:02:59] that is better suited for this area.
[2:03:06] Good presentation. Thank You.
[2:03:08] Alright, I've been asked if we can take a break.
[2:03:11] Do you have anything else you want to add?
[2:03:15] No. Okay. Mr.
[2:03:18] Viner, we're gonna take a three, four minute recess.
[2:03:22] All right? Okay. Very good. Thank you.
[2:03:25] Anybody had any questions?
[2:03:29] Can we can pull her back up
[2:03:33] after Oh, we just dismissed.
[2:10:00] Do you have follow up? I do not.
[2:10:02] Okay. Coming up for an interrogation.
[2:10:03] Any questions from anybody on the board?
[2:10:06] Ah, I got a question for you. That's your true. Okay.
[2:10:11] I like your signs. Thank
[2:10:12] You.
[2:10:13] Especially the one with the, the, the top and bottom sign.
[2:10:17] Is that acceptable to you? That's basically two signs.
[2:10:22] I think it fits better Yeah. Than what's currently there.
[2:10:28] That is actually their sign.
[2:10:29] I just have it up
[2:10:31] because that is their old sign
[2:10:35] from their Wyndham location.
[2:10:36] Yeah. The top three are
[2:10:40] the only nurseries in landscaping
[2:10:42] that I've came across in dairy that are like his business.
[2:10:46] And that's the signs that they have.
[2:10:50] Well, I know the one sign, the, the groundhog sign.
[2:10:53] Since I live on Wyndham Road, I go up
[2:10:56] and down Bowers quite a bit, you know, and you know what?
[2:10:59] I don't think I've ever noticed it.
[2:11:03] Maybe if it was backlit.
[2:11:05] No, it does have lighting. It does have external lighting.
[2:11:11] No, it looks like they all do. Right? I I I was teasing.
[2:11:14] I know. I'm sure they'll get there. Yeah. Okay.
[2:11:18] We're all set. Yes, Sir. Just
[2:11:20] You all set? I'm all set. Very
[2:11:22] Good. Okay. Thank you.
[2:11:23] Would you just mind repeating your name please?
[2:11:25] I didn't catch it. When you introduce yourself,
[2:11:27] It's Jessica Cloutier.
[2:11:28] Okay. Thank you. Thank you.
[2:11:31] Very good. Thank you
[2:11:40] folks.
[2:11:42] Good evening Will Davison one wishing well. Lane.
[2:11:46] Brenda Davison one. Wishing a lie before.
[2:11:50] Go ahead. Thank you. Andrew Rja, 1 64 Stead Road.
[2:11:54] Again, just wanted
[2:11:56] to see if it would be okay for me to submit these.
[2:11:58] These are the images I put up on the board,
[2:12:00] but physical copies for you guys to keep.
[2:12:03] Do you need those for your master file, you think?
[2:12:05] Thank you. You would prefer those Ms. Owen?
[2:12:07] Yeah, I mean the board's seen them, so we don't need to,
[2:12:10] we don't reflect back on that file.
[2:12:12] If Ms. Owen would like 'em for the file, that's fine.
[2:12:15] We need to make a motion for Mrs. Owen to accept, for
[2:12:17] Accept.
[2:12:18] No, this will stay within the depart,
[2:12:18] So I think you just give 'em Ms. Owen.
[2:12:19] Thank you. Thank you.
[2:12:21] What was your name again?
[2:12:23] Yes, my name is Will Davidson
[2:12:24] and I'm on Davidson one wishing well.
[2:12:26] Lane.
[2:12:27] Okay, folks, go ahead.
[2:12:30] My my opinion reflects the, the same opinions of everybody
[2:12:33] that's been up here this evening
[2:12:35] and opposed to the signs to that sign being continued
[2:12:40] to be on that property.
[2:12:42] It's been ruled to be taken down.
[2:12:44] It still exists on the property
[2:12:46] and I I don't think it belongs there.
[2:12:49] It the, you know,
[2:12:53] when you, well, a couple things.
[2:12:56] First of all, Mr. Trip, you said something about compromise.
[2:13:00] I think we as residents were trying
[2:13:02] to compromise pretty hard in opposing the back lit
[2:13:06] or the message lit sign.
[2:13:09] And you folks all decided that us trying
[2:13:14] to compromise that situation,
[2:13:17] you voted against it a hundred percent
[2:13:18] and went with the whole sign.
[2:13:21] So, I, I just want to say that when you say compromise it,
[2:13:25] it didn't feel like there was compromise one bit from
[2:13:28] that side at that night. Sorry, Mr.
[2:13:31] Do you mean not splitting up the electronic sign with the
[2:13:33] Rest of the time?
[2:13:34] Yeah, a hundred percent. And so today I live
[2:13:37] directly across from that building
[2:13:39] and the, the lights come into three of the, of my bedrooms
[2:13:45] all night and,
[2:13:49] And our dining room.
[2:13:50] And our dining room. And so,
[2:13:51] and in my living room, living room
[2:13:52] All night, All night, all night.
[2:13:54] The signs have been on all night every night.
[2:13:57] I don't know a night that I have not seen 'em off
[2:14:01] on, let me step back.
[2:14:02] The building signs are on 80% of the time all night.
[2:14:08] The pylon sign is on 24 or on every night.
[2:14:11] I have not, I have not seen that sign
[2:14:14] shut off once. They usually
[2:14:15] Go off at, that one goes off at, like,
[2:14:17] this pylon goes off at like six 15 in the morning.
[2:14:20] Right. And so Goes off,
[2:14:23] Shuts off, shuts off at, shuts off at six or seven.
[2:14:25] I understand that in the morning. That's then comes back on
[2:14:28] at, you know, four in the afternoon
[2:14:29] and stays on until six or seven the next morning.
[2:14:33] These are the pylon signs?
[2:14:34] Yes. The pylon signs. Yep.
[2:14:36] And the building signs have been left on
[2:14:38] overnight numerous times.
[2:14:40] Very bright. And from the pictures you saw,
[2:14:42] they're super bright, they're intrusive.
[2:14:44] And my house, I've had family members stay the
[2:14:49] night and they're like, geez,
[2:14:50] you guys have some bright lights out there.
[2:14:53] Like, unbelievable.
[2:14:56] In fact, I'm gonna joke a little bit here.
[2:14:59] The, the, the guys that are going up
[2:15:01] around the moon probably can see those damn
[2:15:03] lights at this point. Just a joke.
[2:15:07] Now you said the pylon lights are on from like four
[2:15:09] till when
[2:15:13] It gets dark.
[2:15:14] Eight o'clock in the morning, four in the afternoon
[2:15:15] until seven or eight o'clock the next morning.
[2:15:18] Well, like six 30 depending.
[2:15:23] And the, and the building lights are on
[2:15:27] Some nights they're on from four o'clock at night
[2:15:29] until 6:00 AM Some nights they're off.
[2:15:35] It may not be a big deal to you guys, but this is our home
[2:15:38] and it's, it's intrusive. It's, well,
[2:15:40] I don't drive out.
[2:15:41] We can sit on back on the road very often
[2:15:42] either, so I don't know.
[2:15:43] Especially at seven o'clock at night. Oh, Hamstead Road.
[2:15:49] I do go Windham Road. That's,
[2:15:51] Anyways, you know, you should drive down there.
[2:15:54] It's it's pretty bright.
[2:15:56] It's a pretty intrusive, bright late area at this point.
[2:15:59] Yeah, yeah. So I'm opposed to it.
[2:16:03] The court has ruled that these lights
[2:16:06] or this, that sign does not belong there.
[2:16:08] And I'm gonna stick with that at this point.
[2:16:13] Well, something I understand
[2:16:14] and I I, you alluded to this with Mr. Foley earlier,
[2:16:20] you know, probably the, the,
[2:16:26] the board, the minutes recorded, you know, that,
[2:16:29] that are are approved by the board and the reflections
[2:16:32] They're on here Yeah.
[2:16:34] Can read. Yeah. Probably weren't the, you know, the,
[2:16:38] the best showing for this board historically.
[2:16:42] And I will,
[2:16:44] and I spoke to this, I referenced the Parkland signed
[2:16:47] and others that we've approved
[2:16:49] and understand the dispute of the safety of it,
[2:16:53] which was the focus of the EMS and whether
[2:16:57] or not it's a distraction and my own history
[2:17:00] and knowledge of it, which the upper courts look for.
[2:17:06] Just said to me, I, I know what this is going to be like
[2:17:09] and I believe the pylon sign will be worse
[2:17:13] than the electronic messaging sign.
[2:17:15] And that was, that was where the majority of the,
[2:17:17] the testimony was focused.
[2:17:20] I think in regards to a compromise.
[2:17:23] And I think you may have heard me say earlier, you know,
[2:17:26] if this, if the applicant doesn't prevail here,
[2:17:29] they have the ability to come back and modify and ask again.
[2:17:33] And the question is, how many times
[2:17:35] do you want to keep doing this?
[2:17:37] And you know, in regards to a compromise, you know,
[2:17:41] the board's decision, my own reflections, I can't speak
[2:17:44] to the reflections of other members that voted on this
[2:17:48] may not be the most advantageous thing as the abutter
[2:17:52] to take a position on.
[2:17:54] It's almost like you're retaliating against the applicant
[2:17:57] for the board's decision, so to speak, is what I'm hearing.
[2:18:01] It's just an advisory thing.
[2:18:03] You're advising me,
[2:18:04] Just suggesting that, you know,
[2:18:06] those reflections are worth considering.
[2:18:09] I think so.
[2:18:10] 'cause in the end you don't know where
[2:18:11] the decision's going to go.
[2:18:14] You, you're correct.
[2:18:16] But I can say that you don't know what what it is
[2:18:21] until you see it and then, then it's like, oh my God,
[2:18:24] this is much different than what I thought.
[2:18:26] No doubt. So, you know, I'm not, I will share with you
[2:18:29] that I'm not happy to see these images
[2:18:32] and know that the board put positions on, on the approval
[2:18:35] to try and make sure that there's protections
[2:18:39] for your concerns.
[2:18:41] Yeah. And to hear that isn't isn't making
[2:18:43] me feel good right now.
[2:18:44] Right. So, and I said this
[2:18:47] the last two times was you give an inch,
[2:18:50] you go another inch, another inch, another inch, and it,
[2:18:53] and it continues, you know, at what point does he go back
[2:18:57] and actually turn this into
[2:18:59] a commercials actual commercial lot
[2:19:02] and then he can do whatever he'd like.
[2:19:03] I mean, there's, I I'm afraid
[2:19:06] of the compromise.
[2:19:09] One sided.
[2:19:12] Yeah. Oh, I don't like just painting with a broad brush,
[2:19:15] personalities, businesses, that kind of,
[2:19:18] as you're conveying here,
[2:19:19] because that's not necessarily, so we've had approvals where
[2:19:24] we've, where this board's granted relief
[2:19:26] and the compliance has been,
[2:19:29] we've never had an issue with it.
[2:19:31] So it's, it's hard to paint
[2:19:33] with a broad brush in the light that you
[2:19:35] Just shared.
[2:19:36] Sure. Shared except here we are. Yep.
[2:19:37] And the broad brush is he's ignored the court. I see.
[2:19:42] He's ignored the board. He's ignored Mrs. Owens.
[2:19:47] He's ignored, ignored, ignored.
[2:19:50] I would like to say that I was against the sign the whole
[2:19:54] sign and I said that Yes,
[2:19:56] I was trying to find it in the minutes.
[2:19:57] I can't, but I think I said it to you. Yes, you did.
[2:20:00] I remember. So I did say that. Okay. I was against it.
[2:20:06] The other thing I was gonna say was,
[2:20:08] now I lost my train of thought.
[2:20:10] We just, you know, in the minutes,
[2:20:12] so we can hand this over to you if you'd like,
[2:20:13] but it within the minutes you can read it.
[2:20:16] Yeah, go ahead and read that if you'd like. So this is on
[2:20:22] June 5th, 2025.
[2:20:24] Mr. Yco said he would prefer the sign not
[2:20:26] to be lit 24 hours a day
[2:20:28] and plan to have them lit only when needed.
[2:20:30] Mr. Tripp asked what hours the electronic sign would be lit.
[2:20:33] And Mr. Yco said he planned to have it lit
[2:20:35] during higher traffic hours, which would be seven to 9:00 PM
[2:20:44] Mr. Burgess asked if all signs would be off when the
[2:20:46] electronic message sign was off.
[2:20:48] And Mr. Yco said Yes, that's correct.
[2:20:51] Yeah, we can see that. That's a dispute here.
[2:20:53] I've there's been no hesitation about that.
[2:20:57] I just expressed my Yeah. Concerns about it.
[2:21:00] Yep. My other thing I wanted to bring up was the realtor.
[2:21:03] When I brought documentation from a realtor, it was,
[2:21:07] you told me, do you know what an opinion is?
[2:21:11] But tonight you were saying like his realtor,
[2:21:15] Not such an opinion.
[2:21:16] Not such an opinion. That's what I gathered
[2:21:18] what you said was like, when you say his,
[2:21:20] his realtors are realtors.
[2:21:22] My realtor wasn't a realtor. It's just her opinion. Well,
[2:21:25] We have rendered a decision on this, on in that regard.
[2:21:29] Right. But Mr. Foley brought it up earlier about,
[2:21:32] about having a, a statement.
[2:21:34] The the court's, higher court's rulings are that the board,
[2:21:38] it's one of those things where even when professional
[2:21:42] opinions are given, that the board has the ability to,
[2:21:47] to differentiate that and, and decis decide whether
[2:21:51] or not it's significant or whether or not we know better.
[2:21:56] So are you deciding that his realtors
[2:21:59] would count more than my realtor?
[2:22:00] No, it's not what I just said at all. Okay.
[2:22:02] I'm just saying that the board has that discretion
[2:22:05] and the courts, higher courts support that,
[2:22:07] that we have the discretion to dispute that information and,
[2:22:11] and look at it as relevance or,
[2:22:13] or the relevance of it. Okay.
[2:22:15] Just what, what you said earlier almost felt like when
[2:22:19] that, when the mention of two realtors came up,
[2:22:22] or the realtor next door came up, if
[2:22:25] Seemed like his realtors
[2:22:26] Were more, it felt like it was like,
[2:22:28] in my opinion, dismissive
[2:22:29] Of one and not accepting of the other.
[2:22:30] Yeah. It felt like there was an
[2:22:32] acceptance from you on that. Yeah,
[2:22:33] No, I understand This.
[2:22:35] Why my wife and,
[2:22:36] and berated her a little bit at
[2:22:38] that night, if I remember right.
[2:22:39] I was a little upset about that. You
[2:22:41] Felt I berated her A little, a little bit.
[2:22:44] Yep. Yes.
[2:22:46] By saying, you know, do you know what,
[2:22:47] do you know what an opinion is?
[2:22:49] Just the, the way that you presented it and came at her.
[2:22:51] Okay. Parade her. Okay. Yes.
[2:22:54] Alright. And one other thing was, I did talk
[2:22:57] to Ms. Owens about the lights
[2:23:03] and she said, you know, it's hard to
[2:23:08] do anything about it because it's after work hours. Right.
[2:23:11] So, and you, you folks have heard that.
[2:23:13] Just wanna reiterate, it's not the only one.
[2:23:16] She said it to me too, that it's after work hours. I
[2:23:19] Think that she isn't gonna look, I think there's
[2:23:21] a learning curve everywhere.
[2:23:22] I will share with you that this is not the first time
[2:23:25] that I've had someone call
[2:23:27] or complain, register a complaint about
[2:23:31] something the board did,
[2:23:34] but their intentions were that the,
[2:23:35] that the code enforcement office was to sit outside
[2:23:39] of these people's home every day to watch them.
[2:23:43] And it's not quite the way it can work either. Sure.
[2:23:47] So I think there's a little bit of give and take there.
[2:23:49] Yeah. And, and I get it. And Mrs.
[2:23:51] Owen's newer to the position, so I can't, I can't speak to
[2:23:54] where she's at, but I think that's applicable here.
[2:23:58] Sure is. And she, she knocked on the door,
[2:24:00] she sent the letter, she called and ignored.
[2:24:03] So I'm all set. I
[2:24:05] Have I have one question for you guys.
[2:24:07] Sure. Just to go back to the very beginning
[2:24:08] with the lights coming in, I know this isn't technically,
[2:24:11] you guys aren't next door neighbors, I get that.
[2:24:13] But the dis the distance between you
[2:24:15] and Mr. Foley is very similar.
[2:24:17] 200 feet kind of, in my opinion.
[2:24:19] Do you know what the No, I'm probably a hundred feet
[2:24:21] closer to that sign than Mr. Foley
[2:24:22] Just kind of stating that
[2:24:23] for where I'm going with the question.
[2:24:25] I don't know, do you, the photos that were
[2:24:26] provided of it looks like from a window of the sign, was
[2:24:29] that from your guys' house?
[2:24:30] Do you know? Or was that like from Mr
[2:24:31] I forgot our, I was in the ER all night
[2:24:33] with my mother, so I forgot to
[2:24:34] Grab the pictures.
[2:24:35] So our, our, we forgot our pictures,
[2:24:37] but our pictures are e are even brighter because
[2:24:41] You're 150 feet closer,
[2:24:42] even brighter from the ones I've seen. Okay. Yep.
[2:24:45] I can swing by and and drop them off at any point.
[2:24:47] There were good photos. I just wasn't sure if that,
[2:24:49] if I was looking at it from your perspective
[2:24:50] or I was looking at it from,
[2:24:52] I didn't think we forgot ours. Thanks for asking.
[2:24:54] That's okay. Sorry to bring that part up then.
[2:24:56] I'm sorry to hear that your mother's been sick.
[2:24:58] Thank you. Okay. All set then, Mr. You all set? Mr.
[2:25:02] Trip? Okay folks. Thank you. Thank you. Anybody else?
[2:25:08] I,
[2:25:20] You look like you got a bit of a gimp there.
[2:25:22] What's that? I said you look like you have a bit of a gimp.
[2:25:25] Yeah. Bad knees. Tom, give us your name.
[2:25:30] Yeah, Tom Cardin. Two Cunningham Drive.
[2:25:32] I, I am not a direct toBut.
[2:25:34] I live about a mile or so down the road.
[2:25:35] I'm assuming it's okay for me to speak my,
[2:25:41] I have to say a lot of the stuff that, a lot
[2:25:43] of the questions I have and a lot
[2:25:44] of things I was gonna say has already been covered.
[2:25:46] So I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna repeat them,
[2:25:48] but I, I do have a, a couple of questions at first was,
[2:25:52] was there an order to take down
[2:25:54] the present sign that's there?
[2:25:56] The lon sign by the
[2:26:00] Feel free Ms. Owen.
[2:26:02] Huh? And I apologize if for speaking for you earlier.
[2:26:06] So really that's not pertinent to the case that's
[2:26:08] before the board this evening.
[2:26:10] It's what? It's not pertinent
[2:26:11] to the case that's before the board.
[2:26:13] We've got a, a variance application this
[2:26:15] Evening.
[2:26:16] So, so taking the, taking the sign down
[2:26:18] has nothing to do with what
[2:26:19] That's an administrative item right now
[2:26:21] that we are working through
[2:26:23] on the direction of legal counsel.
[2:26:25] Okay. Alright. That's cool. Okay.
[2:26:28] That, I just do wanna say that I know one of the things
[2:26:32] that was said tonight that
[2:26:33] that Hampstead road is similar to the bypass.
[2:26:37] I go by there four or five times a week
[2:26:38] and I couldn't tell you there's nothing like the bypass.
[2:26:41] So just wanted to say that.
[2:26:43] And I too have noticed the signs, the lights on
[2:26:46] as I've come down from, from here,
[2:26:50] from town council meetings and I've seen it lit.
[2:26:52] I probably at the point, I probably at
[2:26:54] that point I should have complained about it,
[2:26:56] but I didn't, I just wanted to for the record to know
[2:26:58] that yes, I have seen it on, so
[2:27:01] I do wanna talk about section 1 65 1 0 1 0.1.
[2:27:06] I'm not gonna read the whole thing,
[2:27:07] but it does say the sign shall not exceed 24 square feet in
[2:27:11] the area and it does not say anything about pylon
[2:27:16] or electronic message board.
[2:27:17] So that's, that's the ordinance, you know, as it pertains
[2:27:21] to signs in residential district.
[2:27:24] Okay. So, you know, that's, that's one of the reasons that,
[2:27:27] that I'm opposed to it, you know,
[2:27:30] and I think the, the ordinance clearly wants
[2:27:33] to limit the size and the scope
[2:27:35] of signs in a residential neighborhood.
[2:27:39] And, you know, I, I think that,
[2:27:44] I think it's contrary to the, the spirit
[2:27:46] of the ordinance if you do approve this, this lit sign,
[2:27:52] I, I also would like to note that, you know,
[2:27:54] meadow Meadowbrook stable
[2:27:56] and Eddie saw, they both have signs
[2:27:58] that, that go along there.
[2:27:59] They're not lit. And so, you know,
[2:28:04] you know, one of, one of my concerns, one
[2:28:06] of my biggest concerns is the fact that those, that
[2:28:08] that sign has been on all night.
[2:28:12] And, you know, clearly the, you know, one of the, one
[2:28:17] of the conditions when this board approved the sign was
[2:28:19] that it had to be turned off at nine o'clock.
[2:28:21] And, you know, the, the, the couple that was here
[2:28:24] that spoke about it, I have a lot of empathy with them
[2:28:27] with those lights shining in their house.
[2:28:29] And I think that's, I think it's just, it's wrong.
[2:28:31] And though I I don't think the,
[2:28:36] I don't think the board should approve it.
[2:28:38] I, I did like the two speakers
[2:28:41] before that that gave suggestions about the sign
[2:28:44] and, you know, certainly the, the business deserves
[2:28:46] to have a sign there and, you know,
[2:28:47] something that people can see.
[2:28:50] I'm just opposed to a lit pile on sign. Okay. Any questions?
[2:28:54] Any questions from anybody? Thank you.
[2:28:57] That Help? No, thank.
[2:28:59] Okay. Alright. Thank you. Thank you Tom.
[2:29:00] Have a good evening. Anybody else, folks,
[2:29:05] your turn to come back up?
[2:29:12] Thank you very much Mr. Chair.
[2:29:14] I just, I guess one global point I'll make quickly is that,
[2:29:17] you know, hearing a lot about what happened last June,
[2:29:20] but this is a new application so I think I'd just like to,
[2:29:22] you know, state that as far as the lighting goes, Mr.
[2:29:26] Corbett, I think you, you made a point at one point,
[2:29:29] but geez, was it about the reader board
[2:29:31] or was it about the lights?
[2:29:32] My client was under the impression
[2:29:34] that it was about the reader board.
[2:29:35] So that's what he was turning off at night.
[2:29:37] I'll go right on the record
[2:29:38] and say right now we'll turn it off at night.
[2:29:40] What's going on right now is that the lights are hooked up
[2:29:43] to his emergency lighting.
[2:29:44] So he just needs to get a tech out there
[2:29:46] to put in a new switch and, and he'll have it off at night.
[2:29:48] I mean, we're not gonna, you know, kick up a fuss about
[2:29:51] that as far as code goes.
[2:29:53] We're gonna deal with, with, with code enforcement as well.
[2:29:58] But we wanted to see how we did.
[2:30:00] 'cause if we were able to legitimize it then
[2:30:02] it wouldn't, wouldn't it be an
[2:30:03] issue? Did you have anything you wanted?
[2:30:06] Yeah, just to speak to the lighting, I know that's been a,
[2:30:08] a huge point that's gone back and forth
[2:30:10] and I've been unfortunately painted, like I'm a,
[2:30:13] a guy shining, you know, shining lights.
[2:30:15] I go down there and turn 'em on
[2:30:16] and I, I, I don't like hearing that.
[2:30:18] Obviously, you know, this process has been not an,
[2:30:20] not an easy process for me as it has been
[2:30:23] for the, the abutters as well.
[2:30:25] You know, I got approval for the sign, I got approval
[2:30:27] for the, for the reader board and so forth.
[2:30:29] And it went in just to speak to the lighting as it sits
[2:30:33] so we can all kind of understand
[2:30:35] what's going on with this lighting.
[2:30:37] The power was tied in from my parking lot lights,
[2:30:40] which is my emergency lighting for the, to keep the,
[2:30:42] the place safe at night.
[2:30:44] The reader board was the brain of that whole sign.
[2:30:48] It was to go on at exactly a dusk, not
[2:30:51] before it was to go off at exactly a time
[2:30:54] that was set at the reader board.
[2:30:55] The reader board was to be turned was
[2:30:57] to only change every five minutes was a concession.
[2:31:00] If you remember back, if you do, that was what,
[2:31:02] what we, what we had said.
[2:31:03] So the reader board is the brain of that sign's operation.
[2:31:07] So as soon as rulings came down, things came my way,
[2:31:11] which was only one thing I've received from the town.
[2:31:14] No calls, no emails, no no letters, no visits
[2:31:19] that I'm, I I'm aware of Miss I I'm happy to re she's happy
[2:31:23] to rebut this and, and talk about it.
[2:31:25] I know it has nothing to do with this case,
[2:31:27] but I have not received any of that.
[2:31:29] I have received the letter from, from the,
[2:31:31] the town stating the, stating the ruling by the court.
[2:31:36] I immediately turned it over to my counsel
[2:31:38] and they've dealt with, with this from this standpoint.
[2:31:41] But the brains of that, that electronic reader board was
[2:31:44] to do all of what we're talking about to the sign,
[2:31:47] turn it on, turn it off and so forth.
[2:31:49] Once that reader board was, was installed,
[2:31:52] unfortunately very expensive, but was installed
[2:31:57] and, and no one has said
[2:31:58] otherwise when I get the ruling, I never turned the read
[2:32:00] of board on it.
[2:32:02] Never went on it, it, it, it never activated to do
[2:32:06] what it was supposed to do for all of my, my signage
[2:32:09] and everything I'm supposed to do there.
[2:32:11] I did get a certified letter yesterday from the Abutters
[2:32:16] stating about the yesterday day
[2:32:18] before about the lighting supposed to come off.
[2:32:22] I can't be back through.
[2:32:23] I looked, I saw that I can't physically turn it off.
[2:32:27] It's not something I can just go turn off.
[2:32:29] My electrician is coming tomorrow to disconnect the sign
[2:32:31] until it gets settled.
[2:32:33] It's the only way I physically can do it to get it off
[2:32:36] of my parking lot lights
[2:32:37] and I'm not gonna jeopardize the safety
[2:32:39] of people coming in and out at night.
[2:32:42] So everything that was just stated about, you know,
[2:32:45] what I've done and what I haven't done,
[2:32:46] I I never turned on the electronic reader board
[2:32:49] because I know it was a, a huge point of contention.
[2:32:52] Although I got the approval for it, it never went on.
[2:32:54] Not one person has said anything about that.
[2:32:56] I did not do that. As far as the signs on the building,
[2:32:58] I think they're allowed to be on,
[2:33:00] I have no problem shutting them off at, at the hours.
[2:33:03] I no issue with that. I can put it on a time clock.
[2:33:05] I have my electrician come in
[2:33:06] and do that as far as the,
[2:33:09] the lights stood are pointing up in the air.
[2:33:11] The spotlights, they, they were preexisting.
[2:33:13] I I I think they must come on with the parking lot lights.
[2:33:15] I'm not even sure I didn't install 'em.
[2:33:17] I think they were part of the church.
[2:33:19] I don't care if they're on either.
[2:33:20] We can take those so I can remove 'em.
[2:33:22] I don't, it's probably cost me a ton
[2:33:24] of money at night just having spotlights on all night.
[2:33:26] I I don't care about that. Happy to concede that
[2:33:30] Probably if you haven't dis disconnected permanently,
[2:33:32] the savings and electric.
[2:33:34] That's what I mean. I'm fine with it. I could kill us.
[2:33:35] They don't do me any good. I no problem whatsoever.
[2:33:38] Well, you have solar panels to power those. Right.
[2:33:40] There you go. Yeah, exactly right.
[2:33:43] And one other point I'll just make, you know,
[2:33:45] I heard a lot about other signs being, oh,
[2:33:47] the ordinance is 24 feet, 24 feet.
[2:33:50] Again, we're here for a variance from the ordinance.
[2:33:51] But if you read that ordinance, the 24 feet is specific to
[2:33:55] a, a sign naming, a residential development.
[2:33:58] So it's wouldn't even really apply even if we were doing a
[2:34:02] 24 square foot sign.
[2:34:04] So, and that's all we have
[2:34:06] unless you folks have more questions for us.
[2:34:08] I think we'll otherwise defer to statements on the record
[2:34:11] and pleadings and all that good stuff.
[2:34:13] What if you were to have no electricity
[2:34:15] on this sign at all?
[2:34:18] Does that work for you?
[2:34:21] No, not really. It doesn't.
[2:34:23] It's, it's, it, it hurts what I'm trying to do
[2:34:25] because my business that I'm trying
[2:34:27] to have there is also running in the evening.
[2:34:31] And a lot of it is over the wintertime, which is more
[2:34:35] Baseball, more Dark.
[2:34:36] I mean it's, it's darker longer.
[2:34:39] During that time, my intention
[2:34:41] and now I'm gonna have to, I talked to my electrician,
[2:34:44] I'm gonna have to come up with some creative way to do it.
[2:34:45] I, I don't know, run all new power out there, I guess is to
[2:34:51] have it go on at dusk
[2:34:52] and go off at our business hours, which was in the record.
[2:34:56] I, it was nine o'clock.
[2:34:58] Again, I, I didn't have the brain to do that with
[2:35:01] that, with that reader board.
[2:35:02] And I, I guess I just, I missed it on. Yeah.
[2:35:04] Interesting. Would the intention be,
[2:35:06] if you have the electrician come out, he's able
[2:35:08] to rewire it, set the timer that when the,
[2:35:11] basically when the, the school, the athletic center,
[2:35:14] the nursery closes that'll go off when you
[2:35:17] Power?
[2:35:18] That's correct. Correct.
[2:35:19] Is it, and I know this gets to a dangerous slope,
[2:35:22] so Mr. Perkins, correct me,
[2:35:23] is it possible when the electrician comes out,
[2:35:24] if they can conduct any type of lumen test
[2:35:26] or see if they can lower the
[2:35:28] lumen at all? Like on the electronic
[2:35:29] Board?
[2:35:30] I, I, I don't know. I'm not an electrician.
[2:35:33] I don't know the answer to that. What I, all I know about
[2:35:35] that is, is I can defer back to the sign company
[2:35:38] that gave at the time,
[2:35:41] and it's probably in your original packet, if we were
[2:35:45] to pull it out, the sign company gave the lumens in the,
[2:35:50] the, the brightness off of that sign, how far it projected.
[2:35:54] I know you guys reviewed that.
[2:35:55] You looked at it and went over that again.
[2:35:58] It was done by someone that's smarter than I am.
[2:36:00] I, I don't know the answer to that.
[2:36:01] I'm sure there's someone that can do it and,
[2:36:02] And, and I, I think I would say to that,
[2:36:04] I think planning must have reviewed that when you went
[2:36:06] through planning for the sign.
[2:36:09] I don't know. I don't Think
[2:36:10] that was, yeah, I think it was just,
[2:36:13] Well I think the, the focus on the lumens was, was
[2:36:18] to the electronic messaging sign.
[2:36:20] That was the, that was believe, so
[2:36:21] that was the primary focus of
[2:36:23] Okay.
[2:36:24] Of the discussion and why that that was tabled
[2:36:26] to a second evening that two parties came back
[2:36:30] with their own commentary about one from Texas,
[2:36:34] one from Canada I think.
[2:36:35] Yeah, Toronto. And so you are correct in that,
[2:36:40] that was in regards to that.
[2:36:42] But I think overall what this board was looking
[2:36:46] for was peace and quiet and,
[2:36:49] and not have to have the contentiousness that it's,
[2:36:53] that it's been, and with that, you know, in the, in the idea
[2:36:58] that, that there's the granting of this
[2:37:01] and the sensitivity of the neighbors to the lighting.
[2:37:04] I, you know, it's almost one of those things
[2:37:06] where it should be self-managed, where you understand
[2:37:09] that it looks like a,
[2:37:11] an air traffic control tower from the images I could see.
[2:37:15] And that is, that is disturbing.
[2:37:17] I mean there's some acceptances here
[2:37:19] and the higher courts give those
[2:37:20] for this board's discretion.
[2:37:22] But when we're, but we're seeing the images of this
[2:37:26] and understand the disturbance that makes it hard to
[2:37:31] con convey a decision that's may be favorable to you.
[2:37:35] I understand. I, the, the, just to speak more on the,
[2:37:39] the lighting, which is clearly the, the concern here is the,
[2:37:43] I've already taken steps to correct the signage.
[2:37:46] I mean that, that has to remediate the signage.
[2:37:49] I had that in place initially with the initial granting
[2:37:52] of the variance with my, with the reader board.
[2:37:54] I thought unfortunately we're here, we're we're going back.
[2:37:57] So it wasn't able to be done as far
[2:38:00] as the building is concerned, whether the I'm allowed
[2:38:03] to keep the signs on all night or not.
[2:38:05] I don't care if they're on all night.
[2:38:06] I actually would, would, I don't want
[2:38:08] to be contentious in any way with, with the abutters,
[2:38:11] but I I don't think they're on much.
[2:38:14] I they're supposed to be shut off every single night.
[2:38:17] So I don't think they're on much, they were supposed
[2:38:19] to be tied to that same brain,
[2:38:20] but we just literally shut them off every night.
[2:38:22] So if they were left on a few nights, that's possible.
[2:38:25] I mean, but it's not, that's not the intention.
[2:38:27] And as far as the, the spotlights, I could,
[2:38:31] I take care of 'em tonight
[2:38:33] Less Well, I'll, they were just there. Right.
[2:38:35] I'll make a suggestion on the record
[2:38:37] as I stare at my client for authority, you know,
[2:38:41] that will turn all the lights on, on the property that
[2:38:43] otherwise don't need to be on lawfully.
[2:38:46] I do understand. I think there are some lights
[2:38:48] that would have to be on.
[2:38:50] I think commercial businesses need emergency lighting
[2:38:52] that that's supposed to be lit.
[2:38:54] That's my recollection from, from owning a law practice
[2:38:57] with my father years ago in Milford,
[2:38:59] we had these lights that had to be outside.
[2:39:01] I mean, I don't know, I'm not a I'm not the expert on it,
[2:39:03] but I think we can go on record as saying that, we'll,
[2:39:06] we'll douse the lights at night.
[2:39:08] I'm completely fine with that.
[2:39:10] How difficult is it for you to rearrange
[2:39:13] that sign the way it's established now that something Mr.
[2:39:17] Tripp was directing his questions towards some
[2:39:20] of the abutters, what their acceptance is.
[2:39:24] You've got this towering sign,
[2:39:27] I understand you've got 24 square feet per business.
[2:39:31] You have any thoughts on,
[2:39:33] on compromise there or do you something
[2:39:36] I'm not, I'm not looking for that tonight.
[2:39:38] I, you know, anything can be done.
[2:39:43] Obviously, you know, I have the sign in place now.
[2:39:47] I think that the sign, you know, looks nice.
[2:39:51] Now that's a matter of opinion.
[2:39:53] Whether it's mine or it's, or it's the abutters.
[2:39:57] I'm told how nice the sign is by many.
[2:40:00] So I, as of right now, that that is
[2:40:03] what we're, we're looking for.
[2:40:05] Anything can be done taking
[2:40:06] that sign down at this point would be
[2:40:08] the same way that was put up.
[2:40:09] I mean, by crane.
[2:40:11] And you know, I know no one cares about dollars
[2:40:14] and I, I was on the zoning board completely understand.
[2:40:16] But it's, it's a $65,000 sign.
[2:40:20] You know, I've already lost 18,000 on the reader board.
[2:40:22] So it would hurt clearly.
[2:40:26] Yeah, I will say that acknowledging that
[2:40:28] that's not a factor for this board to be worried about.
[2:40:31] I will say that, circling back to some
[2:40:33] of the earlier testimony we made about the size of the lot
[2:40:36] versus the size of the sign and it being appropriate.
[2:40:39] And I think that it probably won't be bothering folks
[2:40:41] if it's turned off at night.
[2:40:43] Okay. Alright. Anybody else have any questions, Mr.
[2:40:46] Donlin? Anything follow up on? Yeah,
[2:40:50] Do you, what, what is your normal business hours?
[2:40:54] We are, we close at nine o'clock at night. Nine.
[2:40:57] They vary openings time vary during, throughout the day,
[2:41:01] But certainly not before like 4:00 AM
[2:41:03] No, And just
[2:41:07] I would be fine with, with, with,
[2:41:09] with putting a actual time on it is nine o'clock.
[2:41:13] Okay. I don't, it doesn't have to be at my close. It's just
[2:41:16] For nine o'clock.
[2:41:17] Sure. Probably easier for the automation as well.
[2:41:20] Yes. So just for clarification,
[2:41:23] did you seek approval for the use of the land prior
[2:41:28] to the purchase of the land with the planning?
[2:41:30] Yes. Yes. Yes. I assume as much. I just wanted to clarify.
[2:41:35] Yep.
[2:41:38] All set. Mr. Doman, that's all I got.
[2:41:39] All right. Thank you Mr. Dietzel, you have anything? Nope.
[2:41:42] All set. Thank you Mr. Trip. You all set?
[2:41:47] Sure. Okay. Mr. Corbett as well.
[2:41:52] I'm, I'm all set for tonight.
[2:41:56] I, I dunno if it's the right time for this.
[2:41:58] I would like a little more time to digest everything.
[2:42:01] There's, it's murky on my end.
[2:42:04] I think it was murky on the decision originally
[2:42:06] between the signs, the electronic messaging and the pylon.
[2:42:09] So I'd like a little bit more time to review that.
[2:42:11] We got some of it read in from the abutters,
[2:42:13] so I appreciate, but I just want,
[2:42:14] I do wanna take a little bit of a deep dive between that
[2:42:16] and the, in the video
[2:42:18] and then from there I'd be happy
[2:42:20] to kind of pick this up again.
[2:42:21] Most likely next meeting. But I would like,
[2:42:24] I would like a little bit more time.
[2:42:26] Okay. Yeah, I think that's advisable
[2:42:29] and I can support that.
[2:42:30] I have some stuff I'd like to take a look at as well
[2:42:34] relative to testimony.
[2:42:36] A few folks have any other thoughts on this.
[2:42:42] You certainly would have time to relay those
[2:42:45] to code enforcement and Yeah,
[2:42:47] We'll reach out, we'll reach out to code.
[2:42:49] Yeah. Kind of suggestions through con questions.
[2:42:51] Right? So you all set?
[2:42:53] Can we get a copy of the minutes for that meeting
[2:42:57] Last year?
[2:42:58] June 5th. From the June 22nd? Yeah. Through 19th I think.
[2:43:02] Yes we can. Anything else? Ms. Donlin? Anything you need?
[2:43:05] I'm good Mr.
[2:43:07] Dietle. You all set? All set, sir. Okay. Very good.
[2:43:10] I think with that we'll take a motion and table this.
[2:43:13] So moved. Thank you Mr. Tripp. Second Mr. Corbett seconds.
[2:43:17] All in favor of that say aye. Aye. Aye. Any post hearing?
[2:43:21] None folks,
[2:43:22] we'll take this up at the next meeting, I think. Okay,
[2:43:24] Thank you.
[2:43:25] When is the next meeting? Just we are Christmas. Great.
[2:43:29] Awesome. Are we, it's July. Are we back?
[2:43:31] April or May, July weekend.
[2:43:33] May 7th. May 7th.
[2:43:34] We'll be back. May 7th. Thank you. Thank you.
[2:43:36] The honorable board. Thank you for your time. Alright,
[2:43:38] Have a good evening.
[2:43:42] All right, next up is the,
[2:43:48] oh, we have another other business.
[2:43:50] New Hampshire Town and City publications
[2:43:52] trip. Did you want that this morning? Yeah,
[2:43:54] He also requested it ahead of time.
[2:43:55] Alright. Did I want that? Yeah, why would I want it?
[2:43:58] I don't know. You were all about it for some reason.
[2:44:00] I'm pretty sure I recommend
[2:44:01] or recollect that my gift to you.
[2:44:03] That's when I was on conservation. We can,
[2:44:06] Can we talk?
[2:44:07] Alright, we have two piles of minutes.
[2:44:10] We have for the last one, which was March 5th.
[2:44:14] And I This is
[2:44:19] ro You didn't have any amendments for that? No, I
[2:44:23] Haven't.
[2:44:24] All right. I don't, I I want to table the meeting,
[2:44:27] the minutes for February 19th.
[2:44:29] If we could do start with that please.
[2:44:32] Table the 19th. Oh yeah. We need motion first.
[2:44:35] I'll make a motion. We table the
[2:44:37] minutes for February 19th.
[2:44:38] I second. Very good. Mr. O. Biba first. Mr. Trip Second.
[2:44:44] All in favor? Tabling those minutes. Say aye. Aye. Aye.
[2:44:48] Those are, that's relevant to,
[2:44:58] yeah, we tabled those, right? We just tabled
[2:45:03] Those.
[2:45:04] I think you just made that motion. Thank
[2:45:05] You.
[2:45:06] Alright. And or
[2:45:06] Gaspar made the motion. Anyone second?
[2:45:08] Yep. No, I think we're all set. Okay.
[2:45:09] 'cause I asked all in favor, right?
[2:45:10] Sorry I didn't pay attention.
[2:45:11] And March 5th I'm set.
[2:45:13] We can approve unless somebody has amendments.
[2:45:17] I wasn't here. I'm gonna sain from that one.
[2:45:20] March 5th. Anybody?
[2:45:22] I'll make a motion to accept the minutes of March 5th.
[2:45:26] I have a second from the audience, please.
[2:45:28] Second, Mr. Thank you.
[2:45:31] Dani has the second. Oh, D got it.
[2:45:33] Mr. Dani Got it. Sorry sir.
[2:45:37] I'll, you're approving those minutes as as presented say.
[2:45:40] Aye aye. Aye. Any post hearing? None. All right.
[2:45:44] We're a month off before we see each other again.
[2:45:47] So don't let loneliness set in.
[2:45:49] And it's not kind of a, don't worry.
[2:45:53] Other than that, we have no other business
[2:45:55] before the board tonight.
[2:45:58] So one case so far, Ms.
[2:46:00] So plus one case plus the piling from tonight. Yep.
[2:46:04] Correct. All right. Good enough.
[2:46:06] And the request for Rehearing motion.
[2:46:11] Say again? The rest request for rehearing that we tabled.
[2:46:15] Oh, got tabled. And we're tabling that.
[2:46:18] I, I wanna review the minutes for that,
[2:46:20] which are significance to that February 20,
[2:46:24] Whatever the timeline. Yeah,
[2:46:26] February Meeting.
[2:46:27] So we have that one. We had the,
[2:46:30] we have this and we had the other kids.
[2:46:32] Just those three. 'cause that one with the pool.
[2:46:34] I lost John. It's just tabled, right? Yeah.
[2:46:36] I don't think it's as bad as we're making it out today.
[2:46:38] FFL license, Right?
[2:46:40] Okay. And then this one. All right. Yep.
[2:46:42] With that we can take, we can adjourn.
[2:46:44] If somebody wants to help us find the door,
[2:46:47] I'll make the motion with to take off leave.
[2:46:50] Aye
[2:46:52] Second.
[2:46:53] Adjourn. Adjourn? Yep. Alright. Second. Good enough.
[2:46:55] Craig Corvet makes the motion to adjourn. Second. Mr.
[2:46:59] Dola makes a second. All in favor of adjournment, say aye.
[2:47:02] Aye. Aye. Any opposed? We adjourned. Have a good night.