[0:02] Okay.
[0:03] Good evening ladies and gentlemen.
[0:04] Welcome to the zoning Board of Adjustment
[0:06] for May 21st, 2026.
[0:08] Please rise for the Pledge of Allegiance.
[0:11] Pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States, states
[0:14] of America to three public award to stands,
[0:18] one Nation under liberty and justice for all.
[0:27] All right, thank you everybody.
[0:28] And just to begin on our my far left,
[0:32] please introduce ourselves,
[0:35] Anthony Henry Michael Donlin, Mr.
[0:38] Trip, crystal Morin,
[0:40] Allen Perkins, chair Gus Bo Biba.
[0:43] Jim Dietzel, Jason Ney.
[0:45] And we have Code enforcement Officer Carrie Owen with us
[0:49] and our clerk would be Eileen Boudreaux.
[0:53] How'd I do? All right. Excellent.
[0:56] Got all everybody's names through tonight.
[0:58] Alright, before proceeding, please shut off all cell phones,
[1:02] iPhones, anything that could create a distraction
[1:04] of the proceedings in the event of an emergency,
[1:06] please exit to the rear of the room.
[1:09] And these proceedings are audio video recorded
[1:12] and scheduled to terminate at 10:00 PM as they always do.
[1:19] Besides that, let's get into our agenda.
[1:22] The election of officers is,
[1:24] was first on the agenda, but Mr.
[1:27] Corbett is not here. He'll be tardy.
[1:29] So a motion to put that to the end of the meeting please.
[1:35] I motion. Thank you Mr. Ani. Second. Thank you.
[1:39] All in favor a aye. Aye. Thank you. All right.
[1:42] First case up is 22 dash 1 34, request for extension. Mr.
[1:47] Donlan, you sit on this, please? Yes, sir. All right.
[1:51] Is the applicant present?
[2:02] Gentlemen, this is just brief
[2:04] but kind of a formality if you'd like to go ahead
[2:09] and tell us what's going on with your project.
[2:12] Yeah, so we need to fulfill some requirements for town
[2:16] of Auburn before we are able
[2:19] to pursue a building permit with Town and Derry.
[2:24] We've made progress. It took about a year
[2:26] and a half to get the
[2:30] driveway plan designed and so forth.
[2:33] And then we had several meetings with Town of Auburn
[2:37] planning and we then had to delineate the wetlands.
[2:42] So we did that and we also hired an attorney
[2:46] to draft the, the shared driveway agreement.
[2:50] So the only thing that is pretty much outstanding
[2:54] for Auburn is to get the agreement signed
[2:59] and registered at the County of Deeds.
[3:01] And that's pretty much it. Then we can get that final letter
[3:05] to then send to dairy and take it from there.
[3:10] Is the wetlands engineering due to Auburn or dairy?
[3:15] It was requested by Auburn
[3:16] and I am not sure if we need to for dairy,
[3:20] but I mean, it's already done, so.
[3:22] Okay. Just contributes to your delay? Correct. Alright.
[3:25] But you're in process and it sounds like
[3:28] Ms. Owen, anything there from you?
[3:30] Nothing. Just to kinda re reiterate on this case,
[3:32] to remind everybody this previously was granted a variance
[3:36] June 2nd, 2022
[3:38] and was granted a two year extension, June 6th, 2024.
[3:43] And obviously things are still underway and in process.
[3:46] Okay, very good as the Stated. Good, thank you.
[3:48] Yep. Anybody have any comments before we move forward?
[3:52] Questions, concerns? No. All right. Very good.
[3:55] Okay, well let's motion this.
[3:57] Ms. Warren, Warren, sorry.
[4:02] It's okay. Found to happen in the night.
[4:06] Would you like to motion on this, please?
[4:08] I do. I make a motion on case number
[4:12] two two dash 1 34
[4:14] to grant a variance extension
[4:18] that was granted on June 22nd, 2022 to the terms
[4:22] of Article three, section 1 65 dash nine
[4:27] of the town of Dairy zoning ordinance
[4:30] and New Hampshire RSA
[4:32] 6 7 4 4 1 to allow the construction
[4:37] of a single family dwelling on the property,
[4:40] which does not have frontage on a town approved street
[4:43] parcel id 1 4 0 2 1 zoned LMDR
[4:48] as presented with the following conditions, one Subject
[4:52] to obtaining astate town permits and inspections.
[4:56] And that concludes the reading of the motion.
[4:58] I need a second. Second.
[5:00] Thank you Mr. Donlin. Just a quick finding of fact.
[5:04] The applicants obviously have been in process
[5:09] development following the intentions of, of the,
[5:13] of planning layout for this project.
[5:15] Sounds like there
[5:17] that their delays are no fault of their own.
[5:20] Anybody have any amendments or anything to add to that?
[5:24] Seeing no gestures there?
[5:26] Moving this forward for a vote
[5:28] motion on the floor then seconded.
[5:31] All in favor of moving this for a vote? Say aye. Aye. Aye.
[5:34] Any opposed?
[5:42] Mr. Donlin? Yes. Mr. Trip?
[5:45] I vote yes. Ms. Morin? Yes.
[5:52] Who am I? Oh, Mr. Dietzel. Yes. Okay.
[5:55] And the chair will make it five to zero. Unanimous.
[5:57] So congratulations gentlemen.
[5:59] You're all set on that extension. You've got two years.
[6:02] Thank you very much. Thank you.
[6:03] All right, have a good evening.
[6:11] Next up is case number 26 dash one 14
[6:17] promised land survey on behalf of Craig and Jennifer.
[6:28] Who are they? What's their last name?
[6:33] Pea. Oh, Peabody. I'm sorry. Alright,
[6:36] Are those folks here?
[6:38] Anybody from You're Mr. Peabody?
[6:42] No, I'm, my name is Brandon from Promised Land Survey.
[6:45] Oh, very good. Okay. That's,
[6:47] we've requested that that be tabled.
[6:48] The client asked.
[6:50] So it, it was in the agenda that it was asked
[6:54] to be tabled, but Yep.
[6:56] I didn't know if it had become official or not.
[6:57] I'm not prepared to present it tonight.
[6:59] No, no, that's, that's fine. We got it. Just wasn't sure.
[7:03] The names always get me. Yeah.
[7:05] Alright, so we're looking for an extension there. Mr.
[7:11] Oba, would you sit for this please? I, Mr. Jeff? Yeah.
[7:15] Anybody have any qu comments before we read the motion? No.
[7:21] Alright. Very good. Mrs.
[7:23] Morn, would you read the motion for this please?
[7:26] Just to table it? Yes, please.
[7:32] I make a motion on case number two six dash four
[7:36] to table the meeting until the next meeting.
[7:39] June 4th, 2026.
[7:42] And that concludes the reading
[7:43] of the motion. I need a second.
[7:45] Second. All right.
[7:47] I don't see a reason for a finding
[7:49] of fact this is a date certain moving it forward.
[7:52] So motion's been made and seconded.
[7:57] All in favor of votes? Aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed? Mr.
[8:01] O Bimba?
[8:03] Yes. Okay. Mr. Trip?
[8:06] Yes. Mr. Mrs. Morin? I'm sorry.
[8:11] Yes. And Mr. Dietzel?
[8:16] Yes. And chair will make that unanimous as well.
[8:20] So we'll see you on 6 4 26. Okay. Thank you.
[8:35] Case number 26 dash one 10.
[8:38] Michelle Lamont, Laina and John Lamont.
[8:48] Mr. Dani, would you sit on this please? Yes, sir.
[8:59] You folks are joint owners on the property or single?
[9:03] No, technically I own it. I'm sorry. On
[9:06] The mortgage it's me. Okay.
[9:07] It's not But we're married. It's not
[9:09] Joint.
[9:10] Huh? It's not joint? No. Okay.
[9:17] You are married? Yes, obviously. Okay. Good enough. Alright.
[9:30] A lot of moving pieces this evening
[9:32] as you may have witnessed from the prior meeting.
[9:35] Alright, so you have your application there.
[9:38] I'm gonna have you read it for the record, okay.
[9:40] And then we'll just ask you some questions.
[9:43] So read the application that I,
[9:45] 'cause there's all different, what is it?
[9:47] The one through should
[9:49] Have nine points on it.
[9:53] Have dairy application for exception.
[9:57] Yeah, it's there application is that
[10:05] you must have the following.
[10:07] So it's not that I don't know what it's, oh,
[10:12] the dwelling is his or her legal.
[10:15] So what, the thing that begins with number
[10:16] one is should this document right here?
[10:19] Yeah. So number one is the
[10:20] applicant claims of the dwelling.
[10:22] That's the first sentence there for number one unit as his
[10:25] or her legal residence.
[10:26] Yes. That's the application.
[10:28] Okay. All right. The re the residential use of,
[10:30] We're gonna ask your applicant to read. Okay.
[10:33] I thought we both kind of were. Okay.
[10:36] So the application claims as a dwelling unit as his
[10:39] or her legal residence.
[10:41] The residential use was established by the applicant prior
[10:44] to the filing of the requested for a special exemption.
[10:48] It was established December 18th, 2018.
[10:52] The purpose, the purpose of the house business will not be
[10:57] in offensive to the neighborhood by reason of the admission
[11:01] of odor, fumes, dust, smoke, vibration, noise
[11:05] or other, or other cause.
[11:07] No, the home business will be conducted within the resident
[11:10] structure of other existing structure
[11:14] or other existing structure.
[11:15] It will not exceed 25% of the finish
[11:18] and living area of the dwelling.
[11:20] Yes. The home
[11:21] and business was use will not change the resident's
[11:25] character of the dwelling or property?
[11:27] No. Not more than one sign
[11:30] or other advertising device will be displayed on the
[11:33] property and it will not exceed
[11:34] three square feet of service.
[11:36] Yes. Not more than one person.
[11:41] Not res, not resided in the dwelling unit will be employed
[11:44] on the premises at the same time.
[11:45] Total number of non-resident employees is zero
[11:49] sufficient off street parking will be
[11:51] provided for employees, clients,
[11:52] and customers where the lot, where the lot size permits,
[11:55] the pocket will not be
[11:57] provided within 25 feet of the front of the lot line
[12:02] nor within 10 feet of the side of the rail.
[12:04] Lot line must provide sketch shown pocket. Yes.
[12:10] Not more than one home business use will be
[12:13] conducted on the property?
[12:14] Yes.
[12:20] Did you provide a sketch for your parking?
[12:24] I believe I did. Okay.
[12:30] Is right in on the lot, the lot size I see
[12:34] Right in the thing.
[12:35] Yeah. So you, you provided the copy of the site plan? I did,
[12:39] Yes. Okay.
[12:41] Alright. Any questions from anybody on the board?
[12:45] I seeing nobody wanna ask?
[12:50] Well, guess, is this gonna be by appointment only?
[12:54] It is by appointment only.
[12:57] So that you, you are working hours are, are dependent
[13:01] Upon on nine to five What? Nine to five by nine
[13:04] To five? Yes. All right.
[13:05] That's good. Monday through Friday? Yeah,
[13:07] It is correct.
[13:08] And, and you have parking available on, on the property
[13:12] Driveway parking? Yes.
[13:14] Driveway parking? Yep. Very nice. Thank you.
[13:17] Anybody else? Mr. No. Oh,
[13:23] Mr.
[13:25] Ani, anything? Not at this moment.
[13:28] Okay, Mr. Omba? All
[13:30] Set.
[13:31] Mr. Henry? I'm
[13:33] All set.
[13:34] Thank you. Okay. Anything else you wanna share
[13:37] with us other than the script you had to read?
[13:40] No. Okay. All right.
[13:44] Oh, I don't see any problems here so far.
[13:48] Let me just make a call to public. Okay?
[13:50] So if anybody comes up, you'll have, has anything to say
[13:52] that you'll have an opportunity to rebut if it's
[13:54] for you or against you, okay?
[13:56] Okay. At this point, this will be an opportunity for anybody
[13:59] that wishes to speak in support of this application
[14:03] to come forward and seeing nobody arise, anybody wish
[14:08] to speak in opposition to this,
[14:10] this would be your opportunity to come forward.
[14:13] Looks like you folks are unscathed here.
[14:18] If you don't have anything else to say, add, take a motion,
[14:22] go into deliberation, please. So
[14:24] Moved.
[14:25] All right, I'll second, second please. Thank you. Mrs.
[14:29] Mor has a second. All in favor
[14:33] of deliberation, say aye. Aye.
[14:35] Aye. Aye. Any opposed? All right.
[14:39] Aye, anybody have anything they wanna start off
[14:41] with in regards to this?
[14:44] Well, I guess I, I did have
[14:46] probably a couple more things to ask.
[14:47] I should have asked what the days
[14:50] of operation should have been.
[14:51] They were nice enough to tell me that the hours
[14:55] were nine to five.
[14:57] I, I interjected with that piggybacked.
[14:59] And that was Monday through Friday.
[15:01] Monday through Friday? Yep.
[15:02] Alright. Well thank you for
[15:06] Piggyback.
[15:07] Covering my, my back. It's All right. Anybody else?
[15:12] I believe this is a permitted use.
[15:15] She's a professional
[15:18] and I believe she meets all nine criteria.
[15:22] I really don't see any problem with this.
[15:24] Okay. Very good. Thank you Mr. Dietzel. Mr.
[15:27] Dani, you're all set.
[15:30] I would just agree with him.
[15:31] It fits in the, the lot plot it fits in the house.
[15:36] It also fits on the lot. I don't see an issue. Okay.
[15:39] With any of the criteria.
[15:43] Lemme find.
[15:52] All right, let's structure the motion
[15:55] subject to obtaining all.
[15:57] Well, sorry, I skipped you Mrs. Owen.
[16:00] I knew I was forgetting something.
[16:02] Did you want to add anything here?
[16:05] There's not much to add. Obviously.
[16:08] We, we reviewed the size of the room in comparison
[16:10] to the overall home and meet's the requirements.
[16:13] We understand that there's parking in the driveway.
[16:15] I just wanna mention that if a sign is requested,
[16:18] we'd be requiring a separate sign permit in the future.
[16:22] Very good. Thank you. Thank you. Alright.
[16:27] Structuring the motions of the town's state
[16:29] and town permits and inspections.
[16:31] Anybody else have a condition they want to put on this?
[16:36] Seeing no gestures. All right, good enough.
[16:38] Well then let's take a motion come out.
[16:41] Actually, let's make sure we specify the hours there.
[16:45] Number two would be hours of operation
[16:50] Monday through Friday, nine to five.
[16:58] Okay, that's appointment only. I'm sorry. Again,
[17:01] Appointment only Adam.
[17:03] No, I I I'm not gonna say that
[17:05] because we're, we've indicated what the hours
[17:08] of operation are permitted for.
[17:10] So I, whether it's appointment only or just people walking
[17:14] and I'll leave that to the discretion.
[17:16] Obviously if parking becomes an issue then
[17:21] it gets dealt with in a different manner.
[17:26] Now, since it's a special exception, it
[17:29] it sunsets with the owner.
[17:32] It does. Yes. Yep.
[17:37] All set. Alright, take a motion. Come on. Deliberation.
[17:41] So moved. I'll second.
[17:43] Mr. Ani has a second. All in favor say aye. Aye. Aye.
[17:47] Any opposed? All right. Mr.
[17:51] Umm, you have a motion to read?
[17:53] I do. Thank you. I make a motion on case number two six
[17:57] dash zero Michelle Le Madina
[18:01] to grant a special exception as
[18:04] provided in Article six, section 1 65
[18:08] dash four eight A, one of the town
[18:12] of dairy zoning ordinance to allow the operation
[18:15] of a wig salon at the residence.
[18:19] Parcel ID 0 9 0 4 9 dash
[18:23] 0 0 1.
[18:25] Zoned LDR as presented
[18:27] with the following conditions, we have two.
[18:31] One subject
[18:32] to obtaining outstate in-town permits and inspections.
[18:36] Two. The hours of operation will be Monday through Friday,
[18:39] 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM And
[18:41] that concludes the reading of the motion. I need a second.
[18:44] Second. I put that motion on the floor.
[18:50] We're gonna go with the finding of fact
[18:55] the applicant is requesting special exception
[18:57] to allow the operation of a wig salon at the residence.
[19:01] The property is located in the low density
[19:03] residential zoning district.
[19:05] The salon will operate within an existing 166 square foot
[19:10] room on the first floor of the home.
[19:12] If a sign is requested, permit is required.
[19:15] Anybody have any addendums to add to that?
[19:18] Seeing no gestures. Okay.
[19:20] All in favor of moving this motion for a vote. Say aye. Aye.
[19:24] Aye. Aye. Any opposed? All right, Mr. Dietzel? Yes.
[19:29] Mr. Tripp?
[19:31] I vote yes. I find
[19:32] that the applicants have met all the criteria
[19:35] of the special exception.
[19:37] Mrs. Mor chair vote Yes.
[19:41] Mr. Dani? I vote yes.
[19:44] And the chair will make that unanimous five to zero.
[19:46] So congratulations. You're all set.
[19:48] Anybody agreed by this has 30 days, bring attention back
[19:51] to the board after that recourse will be superior court.
[19:54] But I think where there's no
[19:57] opposition here this evening
[19:59] and all butters have been notified, you should be safe.
[20:02] Okay. Great. Thank you. Have a good evening.
[20:07] Next up is case number 26 1 11.
[20:11] This is promised land survey representing s
[20:14] and t Trust Tracy and Steven Lannan.
[20:18] Mr. Chair, I'm gonna recuse myself on this case.
[20:21] I have a personal relationship with the landowner.
[20:24] Very good. Mr. Donlin and Mr.
[20:29] Dani, would you sit on this case please? Yes,
[20:31] Sir.
[20:32] Yes sir.
[20:33] All right. And good evening. Good evening.
[20:37] Promised land survey. Yep.
[20:38] Brandon Wing from promised Land survey,
[20:40] what would you like me to do first?
[20:42] Introduce it or read through the application.
[20:47] Hang on a sec
[20:52] wing, correct?
[20:53] Yes, sir. WING. Write it down. Alright.
[20:57] All right. So why don't we just start typical
[20:59] with the reading of the application. Okay.
[21:02] Okay. Go right to the points is that, that
[21:07] Criteria is fine.
[21:08] If you want to introduce it in the, the face page
[21:10] of the application, what you're doing, that's fine as well.
[21:12] I'll just skip to the points if that's okay. That's fine.
[21:15] The variance will not be contrary to the public interest
[21:17] because Whitney's Grove Road,
[21:20] I wrote Whitney Grove Road in a lot of places,
[21:22] as you'll notice, and I I it's written Whitney's
[21:27] and a lot of online information
[21:29] and Whitney, so I'll try to amend it to Whitney's.
[21:33] Whitney's Grove Road already serves as the only access
[21:37] for several dwellings in the neighborhood.
[21:39] And no new access roads are proposed.
[21:42] The spirit of the ordinance is observed
[21:45] because the proposed use, which is a residential dwelling,
[21:48] is consistent with the allowable uses
[21:50] for the LDR zoning district.
[21:53] We are not asking for relief of any dimensional
[21:55] or use requirements.
[21:57] Substantial justice is done
[21:59] because the existing lot
[22:00] of record is currently accessible over
[22:03] and across the existing roadway
[22:05] and cannot be accessed via any other route.
[22:09] The values of surrounding properties are not diminished
[22:11] because new construction homes invariably add aesthetic
[22:15] value to a neighborhood,
[22:17] but they also benefit the local real estate market
[22:19] by increasing the property values
[22:21] for comparative market market analysis,
[22:25] literal enforcement of the provisions
[22:28] of the ordinance would result in an unnecessary hardship.
[22:31] A for purposes of this subparagraph unnecessary hardship
[22:34] means that owing to special conditions of the property
[22:38] that diminish it from other properties in the area,
[22:42] lower eye, no fair
[22:43] and substantial relationship exists
[22:46] between the general public purposes
[22:47] of the ordinance provision
[22:49] and the specific application of
[22:50] that provision to the property.
[22:53] The special condition of this property is
[22:55] that it is landlocked and has
[22:57] its only access over Whitney's Grove Road,
[23:00] which is not an approved public street
[23:05] And lower I two i.
[23:08] The proposed use is a reasonable one as we see it.
[23:12] This is not only a reasonable request,
[23:13] but a necessary one as Whitney's Grove Road is the intended
[23:16] and only access to the subject parcel.
[23:20] And just back you up your written application on that
[23:24] five, that I section you had said, which is
[23:30] not an approved, your application says
[23:34] is an approved public street,
[23:35] but that's not the case, correct
[23:38] It, correct? I'm I'm
[23:40] What?
[23:41] The record record. I don't see what you're talking about,
[23:41] but I probably have a typo in there.
[23:43] Yeah, just the bottom of Wendy's.
[23:45] Yeah, The bottom line on this F first
[23:48] Page.
[23:49] Okay. Oh yeah. It is not an approved public
[23:51] street. That is correct.
[23:53] So let the record reflect that change on that application.
[23:57] Alright. Please proceed.
[24:05] Okay. So the,
[24:07] I'll just read my introduction if that's okay.
[24:10] The purpose of this application is to request a variance
[24:13] to the terms of article three, section 1 65 dash nine,
[24:17] which corresponds to the general court statute
[24:20] RSA 6 74 41 IC one.
[24:25] That statute grants local governing body the jurisdiction
[24:29] to authorize the issuance of a building permit on private
[24:32] or other non town approved highways and rights of way.
[24:36] We are requesting this variance to allow the construction
[24:39] of a dwelling and garage on map 15 lot 16 dash three.
[24:46] The lot is subsized by the current zoning ordinance,
[24:49] but is a pre-existing non-conforming lot
[24:51] of record created in 1970, which is prior to the adoption
[24:56] of the current zoning ordinance.
[24:57] Even though the lot is subsized, we're not looking
[25:00] for any relief of any of the setbacks
[25:01] as there a sufficient area to build a dwelling and garage.
[25:05] The owners purchased this lot with the intent
[25:07] of building a house for their daughter and her family.
[25:09] The dwelling will be serviced
[25:11] by private onsite well and septic.
[25:13] And I've received state shoreline shoreland permit
[25:16] and construction approval for a septic system.
[25:20] The parcel currently has access to
[25:22] and from Island Pond Road via Whitney Whitney's Grove Road,
[25:25] and there are deeded access
[25:26] and flowage rights which date back to 1929
[25:32] when Arlington Mills granted the parcel to William Chase.
[25:35] Whitney's Grove Road provides access
[25:37] to all the abutting lots, including the parcel
[25:39] that's immediately to the east of this our subject parcel,
[25:43] which was granted the same variance we're requesting on
[25:46] January 8th of this year.
[25:50] I understand that there were concerns voiced by some
[25:53] of the abutters about which condition
[25:55] and upkeep of the existing traveled way.
[25:57] I understand those concerns and truly sympathize with them.
[26:01] However, I do wanna re reiterate
[26:04] that we are not creating any new lots.
[26:06] This subject lot was created nearly 56 years ago.
[26:09] So it is a legal lot of record with ample room to build
[26:11] what we're proposing and it does have deeded rights
[26:14] to you as the existing road.
[26:17] And that's, that's all I have by way of introduction
[26:19] and I'm happy to take any questions.
[26:21] Could you replay that January, did you say January 8th?
[26:25] Yes. Okay. And it seemed like
[26:28] this had some familiarity to it.
[26:30] Yeah. When
[26:34] that came in, was it under the current owner
[26:38] When, in January 8th?
[26:41] I don't, I don't remember who, who owned that one.
[26:44] I haven't looked at the deed for transfer. So
[26:46] I, I have, at the time of my submittal,
[26:51] my application submittal,
[26:54] I have Helen Russell Protection Trust.
[26:57] Okay. I don't, I don't know if it's changed hand since.
[27:04] Is that under purchase and sale,
[27:07] The one to the east? I, I'm not sure if it,
[27:09] So is this the same property that was?
[27:11] No. I see. Okay. That's what I was looking for. Clarity.
[27:13] Oh no, I'm sorry. Fair enough.
[27:15] The one to the east, the property of the east
[27:17] received a variance for exactly
[27:20] what we're requesting tonight.
[27:22] So are you looking for a travel lane for the same,
[27:25] same corridor that the prior application was?
[27:28] It's the same, yeah.
[27:30] Existing Whitney's Grove Road, it's a private road
[27:32] and it's, it's access to this property as well.
[27:41] Any questions from anybody on the board
[27:43] just to keep things rolling?
[27:56] I have a question. Yes. Mr. Trip.
[27:58] So Whitney's Grove Road is a private road. Yes.
[28:03] Which means you probably need an easement.
[28:06] No, there's there deeded rights already exist.
[28:11] Not, not title but rights.
[28:12] So the access is already granted to the people
[28:16] who use it.
[28:19] So it is a deeded easement even though there's not
[28:21] necessarily any math on it.
[28:23] It's a deeded right of way. Okay.
[28:25] There's, there are access rights over it. So
[28:28] It's, it's it's a shared right of way.
[28:30] Yes. Okay. Thank you.
[28:34] Just to be clear, the shared driveway is starting when it
[28:38] branches off of Whitney Grove Road.
[28:40] Is that what I'm understanding from the survey?
[28:47] You're looking at the plan, right?
[28:49] The, the words that say existing access, yes.
[28:53] That goes to my client's home property right there.
[28:58] And then ano another abutting property.
[29:01] And we are proposing to branch off of Whitney's Grove there.
[29:04] So to be clear, there, there's no, there's no court or,
[29:08] or right of way that exists on Whitney's Grove Road.
[29:11] It's just a, it's, it is where it is.
[29:14] It's where it's been for many, many years
[29:17] and there's rights to pass over it,
[29:19] but there's no math like there are on
[29:21] all the streets around here.
[29:23] So it's a, it's not a a right of way that's definable,
[29:29] it's, it's deeded rights over an existing way.
[29:37] Tell you what, let's get staff report.
[29:39] Ms. Owen, you wanna help us out with some clarity here
[29:42] as well as the status of Whitney Grove Road?
[29:45] Sure. Thank you. As the applicant stated,
[29:48] they're requesting a variance to allow construction
[29:51] of a single family dwelling on a lot which does not have
[29:54] frontage on a town approved public street.
[29:56] This is a preexisting non-conforming lot of record
[30:00] with frontage on Whitney's Grove Road,
[30:02] which is a private Class six
[30:04] road not maintained by the town.
[30:07] The property is located in the low density residential
[30:09] zoning district, which requires a minimum 200 feet
[30:12] of frontage along an approved public street.
[30:15] Therefore, the variance is being requested this
[30:17] evening if approved.
[30:20] As the applicant stated,
[30:21] the future dwelling would be serviced by private well
[30:24] and private septic.
[30:26] As the law states today, per RSA 6 74 41,
[30:31] a notice of waiver of municipal liability
[30:33] and responsibility must be recorded with the deed as well
[30:37] as town council authorization
[30:39] to issue the building permit if approved.
[30:42] Based on the plan layout on the proposed plan
[30:46] that we have in front of us this evening,
[30:49] I believe a shoreland permit would be required
[30:50] to construct the proposed deach garage
[30:54] and then appropriate permits
[30:56] and inspections would be required as normal.
[30:59] So for this lot,
[31:00] as the applicant was stating this is an existing deeded
[31:03] access, similar to what we had witnessed for the property
[31:07] to the west, the way
[31:09] that Whitney's Grove is right now is it's,
[31:11] it's a gravel drive, you know,
[31:14] it's a one-way access pretty much in private street.
[31:17] So this deeded access allows, it's basically at the corner
[31:22] of their lot, but allows the access through their lot
[31:24] to access 17 and continue on to the lot to the west as well.
[31:30] And I think that's what I was looking for to Mr.
[31:33] Tripp's question, which was that this,
[31:35] that Whitney's Grove Road is, is class six and I Correct.
[31:38] I think I was trying to get a handle on that. Anything else?
[31:42] That is it. Thank you.
[31:44] Any questions from the board on that?
[31:46] So what kind of frontage does it have on Whitney Road?
[31:52] It does, it, it, I know
[31:54] Whitney Road's not an official
[31:55] Right. I'm just trying to figure out the,
[31:57] It's, It's, if, if you want, we can direct that
[32:00] to Mr. Wing.
[32:01] Okay. It has essentially a point of access.
[32:06] It has, like I mentioned, it's not a real right of way.
[32:11] So it, it just has access across that property.
[32:15] It is not defined or clear at all in the deeds.
[32:19] So it has access from Whitney Grove over
[32:23] and across Whitney's Grove and to it Yes.
[32:28] But like what's, but as far as frontage Yes, no frontage.
[32:33] It doesn't have frontage on it really.
[32:35] It just has access to and from it.
[32:38] So the frontage I, I think could be argued it's,
[32:42] the frontage may be as wide as the, the proposed driveway
[32:45] or, or whatever you might wanna say.
[32:48] So just for clarity, the application is
[32:51] to allow the construction of a single family dwelling on, on
[32:57] that does not have frontage on a town approved road.
[33:00] Yeah. And so this,
[33:01] so Whitney's Grove Road is not a town approved road.
[33:04] It's a private road. I got that.
[33:05] So, so there's no access on a town approved road.
[33:09] Yes, I understand that. So there's no frontage there at all.
[33:11] Yeah. Alright. Anything Ms.
[33:15] Solan, I might have missed there. No, that
[33:17] Was a good way to state it.
[33:18] Thank you.
[33:20] So y'all all set Mr. Dani? Yeah. Okay. Good enough. Mr.
[33:25] Donlin, anything?
[33:29] Not at this time. Mr. Henry. Ms. I'm all set.
[33:32] Thank you Mrs. Moore. Anything? I don't have anything. Okay.
[33:36] Mr. Wing, you have anything else to add?
[33:38] I don't, I don't believe so. Okay, thank you.
[33:43] It's an existing lot of records since 1970 you said? Yes.
[33:47] Okay. Emphasis on that.
[33:50] Alright, well let's make a call the public
[33:54] May, may I add one more thing though?
[33:56] The lot was created in 1970
[33:58] but the, the rights to that section, the, it,
[34:02] the lots were made smaller in 1970,
[34:04] but there, the property that was there had deeded rights
[34:08] as well back to like 1920 something I believe
[34:12] When God made the lake.
[34:13] Right. Got it. Alright.
[34:17] Alright, well let's make a call to public.
[34:19] Anybody wishing to speak favorably to this application,
[34:22] this would be your opportunity to come forward.
[34:26] We have one individual and I think this is your client.
[34:29] Yeah. Should we allow him to speak? Sure. All right.
[34:32] Mr. Lannan, have a seat. Yeah,
[34:34] I'm the owner of the Property.
[34:35] Have a seat and I'll let you
[34:36] introduce your name for the record.
[34:38] Steven Lannan. Okay. Owner of the property. Got it.
[34:41] And yeah, when I bought the, when I purchased the piece
[34:44] of land in hopes I bought two pieces of land
[34:48] and one in hopes to put a house on there
[34:51] for my daughter when I was there.
[34:53] So my concern was more when my ne I had one neighbor come up
[34:58] and, and voice their concerns about traffic on the road.
[35:01] And very, I, it'll be a very low impact.
[35:03] It's gonna be my daughter, her husband, and the kids.
[35:06] And I don't see any more than that.
[35:08] You know, it, it's summer traffic.
[35:10] We're going to see when I drive in
[35:13] and out of that road, I may see a car every
[35:16] five times in and out.
[35:19] It's lack of traffic.
[35:20] I work in maintenance on the road as many,
[35:24] every time there was snow, my truck plowed on that road.
[35:29] I've limbed those trees in that road.
[35:31] Snow limbs wouldn't come down.
[35:33] So I'm definitely there to help.
[35:34] That's what I know how to do is work.
[35:37] And I just hope we can get this through.
[35:40] It's, it's a variance to get access to the lot.
[35:43] Mr. Trip, you brought something attention.
[35:46] This is the owner of the property? Yep. Yep.
[35:48] Does did he give us his address?
[35:51] Well, we'll you, what's your actual legal address?
[35:54] 23 Whitneys Grove Road. Very
[35:56] Good.
[35:57] And this is for 17 Whitneys Grove Road, correct? Yep.
[36:01] All set. Mr. Tripp. Thank you. Yep, you're welcome.
[36:04] And so I think prior on the January 8th case,
[36:09] there was questions raised about maintenance
[36:11] or sh shared maintenance or whatever.
[36:14] I'm sure you have access to some gravel
[36:16] or stone once in a while.
[36:18] Yes. Yeah. Alright. And
[36:19] so it sounds like you're already participating towards that.
[36:22] All right, any other questions from anybody on the board?
[36:26] Seeing none. Okay, let's make a call to opposition.
[36:30] Anybody else here to speak favorably? Okay. Alright.
[36:35] We're gonna have you guys take a step back
[36:37] and you'll have an opportunity to rebut.
[36:39] Correct. And so anybody in opposition
[36:43] of this application may come forward at this time?
[36:50] Oh yeah. Come right over. Sit right down.
[36:55] Hi, my name's Wendy Schoenberger.
[36:57] I live at number 15, Whitney Grove.
[36:59] We've been there since 1989, so maybe 34 years.
[37:06] I have a number of issues to bring up,
[37:08] but first I'd like to comment on a few of the questions
[37:10] that I can answer for you in regard to the road
[37:14] and comments from tonight.
[37:19] Let's see. The first one would be that I know
[37:23] without question that when that house was
[37:25] for sale last summer, the
[37:27] House of the lot At number 23, which
[37:30] at the time it was 23 slash or 17 slash 23.
[37:35] And I will explain that,
[37:36] but there was never any implication
[37:38] that a home could be built on that property.
[37:42] I'm sorry, yeah, on that property it was said
[37:44] that you could potentially build a 30 by 50 foot,
[37:50] I think they called it a shed, which was implying a garage.
[37:54] I know that because A, I looked into the property,
[37:57] I was watching it carefully throughout.
[38:00] I was there at the time, five years earlier when
[38:03] that house was built.
[38:04] And I was there at the time, three years
[38:06] before that when it came up in town auction.
[38:10] So,
[38:12] So when you say the house,
[38:13] are you talking about the house on this lot
[38:16] that the applications for number
[38:17] Seven?
[38:18] Well that's what I wanna explain is that number 17
[38:20] and 23 were one unit
[38:23] and the reason that number 23 was allowed
[38:26] to build a three bedroom, three bath, 2,400 foot,
[38:30] whatever it is home there is because the septic tank,
[38:34] and I believe the, well I'm not sure about
[38:36] that is all on number 17, which is now
[38:40] where they wanna build another home.
[38:42] They split that property off last year.
[38:45] But it was very clear if you look it up on Zillow using the
[38:48] s 'cause the road is called Whitney's as plural now
[38:52] you'll see that on there clearly.
[38:56] And when it was created in 1970, it was,
[39:01] it was a cottage at number 23 was 17, I believe attached
[39:06] to it just until last year.
[39:10] Number 19 was approved in January
[39:13] for a year round home to be built on it.
[39:16] But that lot is about two
[39:18] and a half acres as compared to this lot, which
[39:21] is really only one acre.
[39:23] But it already is part of a variance of the two lots
[39:26] that they have put together equaling 1.7 acres
[39:31] that they already have this lodge home on.
[39:33] And they already used the variance for 17 to make
[39:36] that happen because they needed the septic system there.
[39:40] All right. So I just need to be clear
[39:42] 'cause you're talking about a bunch
[39:43] of different Whitney's Grove addresses.
[39:45] So the one here on the application is
[39:48] for 17 Whitney's Grove.
[39:49] Yep. The other one that was associated with it was 2323,
[39:54] Which is where the Landons live right now.
[39:57] Okay. Very nice neighbors.
[40:00] And number 19 is the lot that's behind
[40:03] that, that's on the lake.
[40:04] And that has been up for sale for about five years.
[40:07] And that was it got the permit in here in
[40:10] January and it did close.
[40:12] It did in fact belong to the Russells for years and years.
[40:17] And it now belongs to John Mason. He's a builder.
[40:22] He has a four bedroom I believe permit
[40:24] and he's gonna build and sell.
[40:27] He's in construction.
[40:31] So there's a lot of concerns
[40:35] that are coming from me.
[40:37] You did mention that the driveway situation, the condition
[40:40] of the road and everything that came from an another
[40:42] neighbor, the cars, they actually said they don't feel
[40:46] that they needed to come tonight
[40:47] because they were sure you guys wouldn't forget about them
[40:50] and their concerns with the road.
[40:55] So let's see.
[40:57] The first concern and the biggest concern that my husband
[41:00] and I have, and he's here too if you wanna hear from him,
[41:03] but is a fire hazard.
[41:05] The way the road works, Whitney Grove,
[41:06] Whitney's Grove is actually a half a mile long road
[41:11] and that half a mile road goes all the way up to the top
[41:14] to Island Pond Road.
[41:18] So the lot that we're talking about tonight,
[41:22] number 17 not only has a septic field
[41:26] and all of the attached items that need to go
[41:29] with the septic field, but it also has a right of way on it.
[41:33] That takes number 19 from Whitney's Gro into their lot
[41:38] because that is
[41:42] landlocked without that right of way.
[41:44] So this one acre lot that we have,
[41:50] which I think is about 43,500 feet,
[41:54] already has a septic on it, already has
[41:59] an obligation to duplicate that septic system.
[42:04] Exactly. According to state laws,
[42:06] I don't remember the number
[42:07] but I think I might have it in the back if you need it.
[42:11] So assuming that that's at least two
[42:14] or 3000 feet, then there's another two
[42:18] or 3000 feet gone from that.
[42:21] There are several rights of way on our road.
[42:23] There's the property at number one.
[42:26] There's a right of way for all of us to go across their lot
[42:30] or land 35 feet wide to get to number three,
[42:34] which then has a right of way.
[42:37] And then to number 21, which has a right of way.
[42:39] And that's where the road cuts off.
[42:42] And when it cuts off, I don't know if they stick
[42:46] with number 21
[42:48] or number, the car resident, whatever number that is,
[42:52] which is probably 20 or something like that in there.
[42:57] And then my part of Whitney Grove is the one
[42:59] that goes straight on down to the lake from there.
[43:02] So my house is on kind of the bottom, you know, do south
[43:06] of that red spot.
[43:08] So when you go down there, there's three houses.
[43:11] One of 'em says proton technologies and there's one more.
[43:16] And my biggest concern is a fire hazard.
[43:18] And where you have that pointer right at this moment,
[43:23] sometime about, I'm gonna guess six
[43:25] or seven years ago, that house caught on fire.
[43:28] There was a little boy living at the house,
[43:30] he was maybe 14 years old at the time.
[43:33] I think he's 20 or 21 now. So maybe it's seven years ago.
[43:37] The house caught fire. He came running over to our house,
[43:40] we had snow, thank God my husband and my son were at home.
[43:44] We were all sitting in the kitchen.
[43:46] He's banging on our slider,
[43:47] my house is on fire, my house is on fire.
[43:50] I immediately called 9 1 1, my husband
[43:52] and my son immediately ran over to that residence.
[43:56] My son, just by strange coincidence, had just finished
[43:59] that fire academy number two training as a teenager.
[44:04] And they went over there and they got
[44:06] that fire under control.
[44:08] They brought the, the mother of the, the wife of
[44:13] that residence over to my house.
[44:16] And I kept an eye on her because she was all burnt up.
[44:19] It was a horrifying night.
[44:21] And the fire department, when they arrived at that house,
[44:24] it, it was a, a dryer fire.
[44:28] But when they arrived at that house, they said to everyone,
[44:31] if my husband and my son hadn't been there, not only would
[44:34] that house have gone down,
[44:36] but we would've lost the whole area.
[44:38] You can see all the trees there.
[44:40] The ambulance had to come,
[44:41] she had burns all the way up her arms on both sides.
[44:44] She wasn't back in the house for three to six months.
[44:47] She didn't work for months.
[44:48] It was a really devastating time for all of us,
[44:51] even us next door
[44:53] because it's impossible to think of getting to the water
[44:58] when I know that you see the lake is right there,
[45:01] but when it's cold out,
[45:02] if there's ice, et cetera, et cetera.
[45:04] And we're talking about just really just kind of
[45:07] around the corner from us
[45:08] because number 19, that you gave the permit on in January
[45:13] is right next to my property.
[45:15] It has been vacant for 40 years or more.
[45:19] And with that in mind, so kind of where the red spot is,
[45:23] there's deadwood all over the place.
[45:26] I'm sure it'll be cleaned up somewhat
[45:28] and all of that area, there's,
[45:30] there's a lot of land up there.
[45:33] It's just, it's just a fire waiting to happen.
[45:36] And with that in mind, we are all terrified at the bottom.
[45:40] You can see if a fire truck comes down just at your,
[45:44] you know, right there and it turns left in there
[45:48] if fire trucks get backed up there
[45:50] 'cause there's only room for one vehicle to go in there,
[45:54] we are not gonna be able to get out.
[45:55] We will have no chance of survival unless we
[45:58] and our family jump in a lake.
[46:00] That's it. And once that place burns down,
[46:02] it's not just rebuild your house,
[46:05] we're talking about it could be all trees there burnt out
[46:10] and have a no home.
[46:12] So that's my biggest concern.
[46:14] There's already gonna be a right
[46:15] of way across this number 17 lot
[46:18] that is gonna allow number 19 to get in and out.
[46:23] And it's already being a very congested area down there.
[46:28] So I first we'll talk about that.
[46:31] And then the next item of safety concern
[46:33] to me is the blind spots and traffic.
[46:36] It's a half a mile single lane
[46:39] road up and down.
[46:41] And I know Steve goes out early in the morning,
[46:43] he says he doesn't happen
[46:44] to see anybody when he comes and goes.
[46:46] But just today I went halfway up the road
[46:50] and Steve was there coming down
[46:53] and there was also a neighbor that he was talking to,
[46:55] which is fine.
[46:57] But I had to sit there
[46:59] and wait while they finish their conversation.
[47:01] And then I had to wait in the one area that there is,
[47:04] it's kind of at the halfway point for us to pass each other
[47:08] because there's no room on the road for us to pass.
[47:11] But it doesn't just happen with people talking
[47:13] to the neighbors, it happens with the UPS, the, you know,
[47:16] you name all the trucks that are coming down the dump truck,
[47:19] the the water delivery, it just goes on and on and on.
[47:24] And it could be that we are keeping different hours
[47:27] but there is a lot of traffic on the road.
[47:30] As a matter of fact, when in 1985 when the road was built,
[47:34] there were three round year round homes
[47:36] and there were a couple of cottages on the road.
[47:39] Right now we have 24 drivers on the road.
[47:43] We are talking about one more house,
[47:45] but one more house setting precedent for another family
[47:49] that owns 14 acres there.
[47:50] Are we gonna let them build 12 more houses on a road
[47:54] that's single lane.
[47:55] I mean it's just, it's out of control there as it is.
[48:00] So with all of that, you know, we have had very serious
[48:03] accidents, especially in the wintertime on the road.
[48:06] I personally was driving up the hill and it was icy
[48:11] but it wasn't a storm or anything.
[48:13] And as I was going up the main hill, another neighbor,
[48:16] she's from number 11, was driving in
[48:20] and I saw that she was sliding on the ice.
[48:23] I threw my car in reverse and went down the hill
[48:26] and during the time I was driving down the hill,
[48:29] she hit a rock, she flipped up in the air,
[48:32] her car landed on my hood
[48:34] and it fell to the ground in front of me.
[48:37] And while it was on the ground, it crushed
[48:39] and she could barely crawl out.
[48:41] And she still is having surgeries today,
[48:44] after about eight to 10 years.
[48:47] I had a child in the car at the time
[48:50] and if she landed on the roof we would have both been dead.
[48:54] And I know that you think, well you never run into anybody.
[48:56] But that day we ran into somebody
[48:58] and also the guy that lives at number 13,
[49:01] he came over the other hill, which is all blind spots.
[49:04] And I do have pictures on my phone if
[49:06] there's a way to show them.
[49:08] But as he came over the hill
[49:09] and I was coming up the other hill, he turned off
[49:13] and he slid about 30 or 40 feet into the woods.
[49:17] My husband came up with a big tractor.
[49:20] And even with the tractor, they couldn't get 'em out
[49:22] of there because it was so deep in, okay,
[49:25] So let me, I'm gonna stop you there
[49:27] 'cause I, I, I appreciate the anecdotes and,
[49:29] and the excitement on Whitney's Grove Road that goes on.
[49:33] But I want to focus on something you opened up with,
[49:36] which was the septic system.
[49:38] So understand that in the guidelines
[49:40] that this board's looking at a lot of times whether
[49:44] or not the property can be develop, developed, built on and
[49:48] and acquire a permit
[49:50] becomes the most substantial point of this.
[49:52] Oh okay. Yep. Okay. But
[49:53] but that aside, what I'm gathering from your testimony is
[49:58] that you feel like the area is full at this point
[50:02] and that anybody else with property
[50:04] that has not had the fortune of developing it
[50:06] or using it to its reasonable use
[50:12] that the, that the barrel's full
[50:14] and nobody else should be able to use that. Am I correct?
[50:17] Well I think that if somebody has a three acre lot,
[50:20] which is the requirement in our area,
[50:22] that shouldn't be a problem.
[50:24] But if we're approving one acre lots with a lot of
[50:29] acreage or land that's not available on that one acre lot,
[50:33] then we're kind of opening it up
[50:34] to people making half acre lots.
[50:37] I don't think it's gonna increase the value as far
[50:41] as it goes with that house right now.
[50:43] Or I wanna say with that land right now there's a septic on
[50:47] that land for three bedroom, three bath,
[50:49] which is at number 23.
[50:51] But that's where 23 got its approval to build
[50:55] with a variance because of this piece of land.
[50:58] And if they're allowed to build another one in addition to
[51:02] the boundary buffer that a septic tank has to have
[51:07] or a septic field, they have to have I,
[51:11] let's see, 75 feet from the lake
[51:13] and wetlands, there's a lot of wetlands.
[51:15] So again, I don't want to, I don't want to stop you okay.
[51:18] But I want to kind of abbreviate this a little bit. Okay.
[51:22] They can't get a permit if they don't meet the things
[51:25] that you're requiring that you're speaking of.
[51:27] And so if this board were to grant their application,
[51:31] they still have to get those items in line in order
[51:34] to get the building permit.
[51:36] Okay. Now the acreage issue is not noted here.
[51:40] What is the size of this lot?
[51:42] So based on the plans we have, it's 1.1 acres.
[51:45] I see, okay. Yes. Okay.
[51:47] And does it say that they are, they have, they have
[51:50] to give a right of way to number 19 on it,
[51:52] which we have right of aways to some, a couple
[51:55] of different people through our property
[51:57] and it's 35 feet for the length of it.
[52:00] I don't know what that length would be.
[52:02] I'd say it's more than a hundred feet.
[52:04] So will we require a municipal waiver
[52:07] of liability on this?
[52:09] Absolutely. And that's gonna be
[52:10] a condition to this if it can,
[52:11] That is a condition, correct?
[52:12] Yep. Requirement in this area is three
[52:15] acres zone, correct?
[52:17] Yep. And but this is one acre,
[52:19] It's a preexisting non-conforming lot of record.
[52:21] Yeah.
[52:23] Okay. There is a state approved septic design
[52:26] as well on record for this
[52:27] One on record.
[52:28] And that's relatively new. It's not expired. That
[52:31] Is, oh, it's for number 23.
[52:34] No, I can't find the
[52:39] date clearly in front of me,
[52:40] but looks like it's dated March 19th, 2026.
[52:45] Okay. And,
[52:47] and we'll let the applicant rebut this.
[52:53] We really don't want to get into car
[52:55] accidents. It's not significant.
[52:56] No, I don't, I especially don't want the teenagers
[52:59] To Hang on a minute.
[53:00] If you wanna abbreviate it by talking about just the safety
[53:03] of the road and the narrowness, that's fine.
[53:05] We get that. But you know, hearing about each accident
[53:08] and whatnot probably is not pertinent.
[53:10] Okay. I'm gonna hold you there for a second.
[53:12] Does the acreage size on this matter?
[53:17] No. Okay. Alright.
[53:21] Why don't you go ahead and finish up your points.
[53:23] I'll, if you can state to those that are significant to
[53:26] what this board has purview over. Okay.
[53:29] Okay. So if there's a pub, if there's a driveway
[53:31] that's coming out onto a public road,
[53:33] you generally want 200 feet visibility on each side
[53:38] and we have impossible situation up there
[53:41] that maybe you can see 10
[53:43] or 15 feet one way and 30 the other way.
[53:45] Okay, so let me hold you there. I know it's
[53:47] A private road.
[53:48] Lemme hold, wait a minute. I'm gonna hold you there.
[53:50] Okay, Ms. Owen, does the sight line issue
[53:54] for driveways apply on non town approved roads?
[53:57] No, it does not. Alright, very good.
[53:58] Alright, please proceed.
[54:01] Okay, so it is wetlands.
[54:06] We are in a drought right now
[54:07] and you don't really see that if you look at it,
[54:09] but it has been expected for number 19, the hub,
[54:12] the property behind when they make their right of way,
[54:15] that it may even need to be a bridge on a wet y year.
[54:19] I'm not in any way familiar with
[54:21] what their permits have been at this point,
[54:24] but it definitely is.
[54:26] Wetlands is so there that has
[54:28] to fit in the septic tank. And so
[54:31] Just just so you know, wetlands delineation will apply
[54:34] with the septic permit. Okay?
[54:37] Okay. Yep. And so I'm just gonna close out in the spirit
[54:41] of the ordinance would be to allow a home
[54:43] to be built on less than three acres in our part of town.
[54:47] This land has already been used as
[54:49] for a variant to build another home.
[54:52] It already has the septic plus the second
[54:54] identical area for that home.
[54:55] It has the right of way, it has shoreline restrictions,
[54:58] access to the road is dilapidated and may
[55:01] and not maintained.
[55:02] So we already have about 10 houses
[55:04] and we have no agreement on this road.
[55:08] And I don't see any way in the near future
[55:11] or the distance future that we're gonna figure this out
[55:13] about having two-way traffic.
[55:17] And we don't think it is in our best interest
[55:20] to have another small home thrown into that area
[55:24] because it's already pretty congested down there.
[55:27] So I don't think that the property values are gonna change
[55:30] over this in a positive way,
[55:32] but I do think that if an approval comes in
[55:36] for a lot like this, that is not only an acre,
[55:38] but it has all these other things going on,
[55:41] it degrades the whole intention of the three acre
[55:44] or even one acre property minimum in this town. So,
[55:49] Okay. Anything
[55:50] Else?
[55:51] Thank you for your time. You're welcome.
[55:52] I have a question, Mr. Trip.
[55:54] So you, you made the statement
[55:57] that there's no agreement on this access road
[56:02] for you to be able to use it.
[56:05] Well, I don't mean an agreement to use it.
[56:07] We have right away across all of those different pieces
[56:10] of land we talked about, it's an agreement with the people
[56:13] who live on the road now to maintain it.
[56:17] So even though there's big ruts, there used
[56:19] to be three houses we'd all pitch in, we'd do what needed
[56:22] to be done, but there's several people living there now
[56:25] and they, nobody, just, nobody chooses
[56:28] to agree on anything we wanted.
[56:29] Even put in mailboxes
[56:31] and nobody could agree on $50 each for mailboxes.
[56:35] But you, you have written agreement,
[56:37] written permission to use that road.
[56:39] It, it, it's written right away to use
[56:42] to cross those people's land. But so
[56:44] It's a cross and recross type easement.
[56:48] Say it again? It's A, this is a cross
[56:49] and recross. Easement.
[56:51] Yeah. Oh, I think it's a actual right away.
[56:53] I, I'm not sure what you mean
[56:55] by easement instead right away.
[56:57] Okay. But it's in our deed that we can get back and forth.
[57:01] Okay, thank you. That's, that's
[57:03] what I was wondering if it's in the deed.
[57:05] It's in the deed. Yep. Okay.
[57:06] And it's registered and you can get it, you can prove
[57:10] that you have right permission.
[57:14] Thank you.
[57:16] Anybody else? I think you're all set. Thank you.
[57:21] Thank you. Anybody else wish to speak in opposition
[57:25] of application?
[57:26] 26 dash one 11.
[57:29] Alright, seeing nobody else rise gentlemen,
[57:32] if you like come back up you can rebut.
[57:42] Yes. I would like to address some of the issues.
[57:47] It was mentioned that these two lots used was,
[57:51] was one were were one lot
[57:53] and that they were separated recently.
[57:57] That's the, they've been separate map
[57:59] and lot numbers for si since the seventies, since 1970.
[58:04] No new lots were created.
[58:07] The septic is a shared septic
[58:09] and I have received state
[58:13] construction approval for another one.
[58:17] The new one I, the state really is cracking down
[58:21] on septics.
[58:22] There's a really big rewrite of the rules which took effect
[58:25] of February of this
[58:26] year and lot loading.
[58:30] I'm not sure if many
[58:32] or any of you are familiar with lot loading.
[58:34] Lot loading requires a certain amount of land
[58:37] or area For
[58:42] certain amount of gallons per day of effluent.
[58:45] You 2000 gallons per day.
[58:50] One acre with perfect soils
[58:52] and perfect slope can take 2000 gallons of effluent a day
[58:57] to, to meet that requirement.
[58:59] You remove well radii easements, steep slopes, ledge,
[59:03] very poorly drained soils, all of that stuff.
[59:05] And what you have left is the amount of area you can,
[59:08] you can do a septic in.
[59:12] I have proven out the lot loading for this lot,
[59:16] including the load
[59:18] of the abutting lot where my client lives.
[59:19] The three bedroom, three or three bedroom,
[59:22] the lots septic sizing by the state is done by bedrooms.
[59:28] So this lot can support the
[59:31] existing septic from my client's current dwelling
[59:34] and what we are proposing.
[59:37] And I have received state construction approval for that.
[59:44] It was mentioned that rights
[59:46] of way existed across this property.
[59:49] You'll notice if you look at the plan, I show them there's,
[59:52] there's not one but two wanting either end.
[59:54] I had to remove those areas to meet lot loading.
[59:59] So we are not proposing any construction
[1:00:02] or impedance on those easements at all.
[1:00:05] Those are free and clear in
[1:00:08] and the, the lot immediately to the east of this,
[1:00:11] which received variance in January.
[1:00:13] They're in fact using that easement
[1:00:15] as their access, proposed access.
[1:00:23] The fire concern, I, I can't disagree with that. Right.
[1:00:27] None of us can disagree with that.
[1:00:28] This, there's, it would be difficult for a firetruck
[1:00:32] to get down there and turn around,
[1:00:35] but as is required by rs by
[1:00:39] statutory rule, the this sort of thing has to sign like a,
[1:00:44] a hold harmless document and record it.
[1:00:47] So that will be, that will be recorded.
[1:00:51] A municipal waiver of
[1:00:52] Liability.
[1:00:53] Yes, exactly. Site distance.
[1:00:58] Mrs. Owen mentioned that that's not relevant to
[1:01:02] a non-approved town road.
[1:01:05] The wetlands on the lot, I, I'm a wetland scientist
[1:01:08] and I did delineate the wetlands per,
[1:01:13] per the Army Corps of Engineer regulations
[1:01:19] and per state regulations.
[1:01:22] And we are, we are meeting all
[1:01:27] of the required distances and separations from the wetlands.
[1:01:33] So the geography now is separated the topography I guess
[1:01:38] prior to your loading calculations for your leaching system.
[1:01:44] The Is, I think that's what you were saying,
[1:01:47] I I removed all of the things I needed to remove area wise
[1:01:51] and what's remaining.
[1:01:53] That's what I do my calculations from.
[1:01:55] And that calculation does not include this other
[1:01:58] speculative lot that, that your client currently
[1:02:02] Owns.
[1:02:03] It does include it because there is a shared septic
[1:02:05] with easement on this, on the subject property.
[1:02:08] I see. Okay. They pump from 23, which which is on the water.
[1:02:11] If you look at your plan 23 is
[1:02:14] to the right side on the plan.
[1:02:15] Okay. By the north arrow
[1:02:21] that, that's where my client lives.
[1:02:23] His septic pumps up to this lot.
[1:02:25] There's a little dash dot line right
[1:02:29] above the proposed garage.
[1:02:31] That's the existing septic field.
[1:02:33] We are, I, I don't,
[1:02:37] I don't know if you have the exist, the,
[1:02:39] the new septic design.
[1:02:41] I included it, but yes we do. Okay.
[1:02:45] That, that you'll see the new design
[1:02:47] between the proposed garage
[1:02:49] and the proposed house, which is it, it allows
[1:02:55] all the room required for the current septic as well.
[1:02:58] And the lot does support both by, by rule.
[1:03:03] And I can see your elevations off
[1:03:05] to the left of that plan.
[1:03:07] Yes. It would be your slope.
[1:03:09] The, the ones Separate from the leach field? Yes.
[1:03:12] Yep. Yep. And is that slope
[1:03:16] that's depicted there on the left, left lower corner
[1:03:20] of your septic plan?
[1:03:22] Is that actually going in the direction of the lake?
[1:03:26] That, that was an area that was excavated? It's the,
[1:03:31] And I'm not trying to get the bottom
[1:03:32] House.
[1:03:33] I'm the bottom of the house right there. Yeah.
[1:03:35] Is the lower part of that? Is that what you're asking?
[1:03:37] Well I just, I'm curious to orientation, that's all. Yeah.
[1:03:40] I'm not trying to override your license.
[1:03:42] The further, the further left you go on the plan,
[1:03:45] the more uphill it goes.
[1:03:47] Okay. Got it. Alright. That's just my orientation. Yeah.
[1:03:50] They're tricky sometimes. Yep.
[1:03:52] Okay. Thank you.
[1:03:56] And then it was mentioned that
[1:04:01] there was a concern about contribution
[1:04:03] to the maintenance of the road.
[1:04:05] My client does contribute I think
[1:04:08] significantly to the maintenance of that.
[1:04:09] So, and I trust that that will continue.
[1:04:13] Many of you know who the Landons are there.
[1:04:16] Just off the side note. Right.
[1:04:18] Is there any way, 'cause Whitney's Grove Road is, I,
[1:04:21] somebody said it was only a half mile from
[1:04:25] from Island Pond Road looks like
[1:04:27] it could be a little longer than that.
[1:04:29] I I truly don't know that. I can't answer to that.
[1:04:32] If, if she said that it's a half hour, I'm sure it is.
[1:04:35] I mean half hour, half a mile. Half a mile, yeah.
[1:04:37] Yeah. Been a long day.
[1:04:39] And are there any plans or discussions?
[1:04:45] I don't wanna say to form an association,
[1:04:47] but to start to deal with this stuff is,
[1:04:50] I, I haven't heard of any, this sort
[1:04:54] of thing isn't allowed anymore by,
[1:04:58] by any board because of this.
[1:05:00] Mm. So any sort of subdivision that occurs that's
[1:05:06] privately owned and maintained, there has
[1:05:08] to be some sort of association.
[1:05:09] Right. But the, the ones that are old that have been around
[1:05:12] for a hundred years, they, that they aren't like that.
[1:05:17] So I I have not heard if there's a, there are plans. Okay.
[1:05:21] It would behoove the people to have one,
[1:05:23] but it's hard to commit.
[1:05:25] Alright. You know, I can understand that. Well
[1:05:27] And just trying to nip at that safety issue,
[1:05:31] the fire issue that, that's brought up
[1:05:33] and, you know, these lots were around for a long time.
[1:05:38] It's not like they were a bunch of bare land
[1:05:40] that you're just carving into separate sections now.
[1:05:44] And so that's, you know, I kind of understood that the,
[1:05:48] the, the term is a reasonable use
[1:05:52] and where it's a lot of record that essentially
[1:05:58] kind of establishes that. Right.
[1:06:01] And, and deeded rights exist to access it.
[1:06:05] Okay. Anything else you wanna
[1:06:09] I don't believe so.
[1:06:10] I think I, I I hope to address all the issues
[1:06:13] and I, to be clear, I have no problem
[1:06:16] that these were brought up at all.
[1:06:19] Okay. I, I wanna, I wanna make sure that I address 'em.
[1:06:22] So if I've missed anything that was mentioned,
[1:06:24] you can remind me and I'll try to
[1:06:26] Yeah, no, I think, I think we've looked at all of it,
[1:06:30] the questions that the Abutter brought up.
[1:06:35] So unless Mr. Ani you have anything?
[1:06:40] I, well, I guess my question is like, how many,
[1:06:44] how much housing can you put on a road
[1:06:47] that is at this stage?
[1:06:51] I mean, you're saying you are, you, you mentioned
[1:06:53] that we would, you know, just
[1:06:55] because there's lots, are there, are we filling them all up
[1:06:58] or is there a limit to how wide and how big that road is?
[1:07:04] Well, essentially
[1:07:09] you've got the key points here are
[1:07:11] that this is a lot of record.
[1:07:14] And so someone owns a parcel there that dates back
[1:07:19] 50 years or so,
[1:07:22] and it's, it's on a path
[1:07:26] a little more than a path Class six road that has been known
[1:07:31] as the access point to all these parcels.
[1:07:35] And to look at this in a way that you might be
[1:07:40] raising your question suggests that these folks would have
[1:07:45] to abandon their parcel.
[1:07:49] No, I'm not saying that they would have
[1:07:50] to abandon a parcel, but at one point with the,
[1:07:55] when the road is a regularized road,
[1:08:00] it could accommodate more.
[1:08:02] Doesn't mean that it's abandoned, it just might mean it's
[1:08:06] a usable portion at this point.
[1:08:09] Yeah. And I may mistaken where your question was going,
[1:08:15] but essentially when you are, when you're raising
[1:08:18] that question, how many more
[1:08:20] buildings can you put on this road?
[1:08:22] If the, if there's lots of record, each lot has its right
[1:08:26] to come forward and ask for that relief.
[1:08:29] Okay. And just, just my clarification and,
[1:08:32] and just understanding when these were made 50 years ago,
[1:08:35] we had no idea what they put on them.
[1:08:37] Correct.
[1:08:40] Say that again. Well,
[1:08:42] these were lots were made 50 years ago with a intention
[1:08:46] of having them as, you know, cabins
[1:08:51] seasonal or were they intentions
[1:08:54] of having a full fledged home on that lot?
[1:08:57] I guess that's just what I was just trying to figure out.
[1:09:00] If I take you back a hundred years
[1:09:04] or so, when the nation was growing
[1:09:07] and the government was giving out parcels,
[1:09:11] I'm thinking back then nobody,
[1:09:12] nobody in their right mind knew
[1:09:14] what was coming a hundred years later.
[1:09:16] So in that regard, I don't know
[1:09:19] that people had a necessary plan.
[1:09:22] I'm sure back in the,
[1:09:24] did you say the early 19 hundreds these things were formed?
[1:09:27] Yeah, I have it back to the twenties. Yeah.
[1:09:30] Yeah. A bunch of guys went out on a weekend, dug a ditch,
[1:09:33] it became Island Pond,
[1:09:35] and somebody said, let's,
[1:09:37] let's grab some piece of land there.
[1:09:39] We can go camping on the weekends. You know,
[1:09:41] I guess that's my point. Yeah.
[1:09:43] If, if new lots are created, the,
[1:09:48] the road, the, the town would require the road
[1:09:51] to be upgraded to current standards.
[1:09:54] But existing lots,
[1:09:57] like Mr. Perkins mentioned that, you know,
[1:10:01] each one has the right to come
[1:10:02] and ask for, for this variance.
[1:10:05] If a new lot's created,
[1:10:06] then it's a different, different game.
[1:10:09] Yeah, I mean the, the planning process, right?
[1:10:11] If somebody came in and said, we want to, we want
[1:10:14] to grab this 25 acres out here on the road edge,
[1:10:17] on the pond edge and,
[1:10:19] and put in a 10 house development, the town,
[1:10:22] the planning board would say, well start digging your road
[1:10:26] because you're not gonna get it on a, on a class six road.
[1:10:32] Okay. That's my, where my question was going. Alright,
[1:10:35] I got a question.
[1:10:36] Mr. Trip. Is there a utilities provided out there?
[1:10:41] Electric.
[1:10:43] Electric, yes. And private. Well, and septic on the lot.
[1:10:46] Yeah. But, you know, but
[1:10:48] Yeah, there, there's electric down through there. Yes.
[1:10:50] Alright. Anybody else on my left?
[1:10:55] Mr. John,
[1:10:57] Just to be clear, there's no
[1:11:00] everything else about the garage in the house
[1:11:03] and you elaborated on the septic in great detail.
[1:11:06] Thank you. Everything else about this is conforming
[1:11:09] to setbacks and wetland setbacks and all that.
[1:11:12] The only variance we're talking about right now is the,
[1:11:15] the lack of road frontage, correct?
[1:11:17] Yes. All set. Mr.
[1:11:22] Donlin? I am Mr. Henry, anything from you?
[1:11:25] I'm all set. Thank You. All right, Mr. Bumba. All set.
[1:11:27] Okay.
[1:11:34] All right. I think we're all set,
[1:11:35] and if you have nothing else, we can take a motion
[1:11:37] to go into deliberation.
[1:11:39] Thank you. You're all set.
[1:11:41] So moved. Second.
[1:11:43] Thank you Mr. Tripp. As the motion Mr.
[1:11:45] Donlin makes the second Mrs. Boudreaux. All right.
[1:11:49] And all in favor of deliberation, say aye. Aye. Aye. Aye.
[1:11:53] Aye. Thank you. Any opposed? Hearing none.
[1:11:58] All right. So we know we're gonna add a condition,
[1:12:00] municipal waiver of liability.
[1:12:02] Could be presumed that that would be part of the permitting
[1:12:05] and inspections aspect of this,
[1:12:08] but I, I want to make that separate.
[1:12:12] That would of course get registered with the deed.
[1:12:17] Anybody else have anything they want to talk about here? Mr.
[1:12:22] Dani? You asked good question.
[1:12:23] Anything that you have questions about that you wish
[1:12:26] to speak to?
[1:12:29] No, I think that's, I think we answered all my
[1:12:32] Questions.
[1:12:33] All right. Mr.
[1:12:34] Tripp, you know, there's a reference
[1:12:36] to the January 8th hearing on a, on an abutting lot.
[1:12:39] You had a lot of questions similar to those that you asked
[1:12:43] of one of the abutters.
[1:12:45] Any concerns there that you see you need to address?
[1:12:51] Well, the thing is, since it is a lot of record, then
[1:12:58] they have, there's no restrictions
[1:13:03] other than code codes
[1:13:07] on them being able to build a house, you know,
[1:13:11] and as, as you mentioned, the only
[1:13:15] thing the variance the applicant is asking for is
[1:13:20] a variance for no frontage on a public road.
[1:13:25] So it's one of these things that when,
[1:13:32] when somebody wants to buy this,
[1:13:36] they should be aware of the limitations
[1:13:42] of, you know, getting to the property,
[1:13:49] you know, transportation wise, you know,
[1:13:52] and
[1:13:57] weather wise, you know, the,
[1:14:03] And I, and I think in this regard, it was mentioned
[1:14:07] that the owners currently live there.
[1:14:10] I think think the, it suggested that the subdivision or,
[1:14:14] or not the subdivision,
[1:14:16] but the use of the abutting lot is maybe
[1:14:19] for one of the children.
[1:14:22] But often in a listing if a real estate sale, you would see
[1:14:27] those points implied.
[1:14:30] But certainly someone that would look at an image on
[1:14:34] the multiple listing service
[1:14:36] and say, well, I'm gonna go look at this house,
[1:14:39] and then they'd drive down this road
[1:14:41] and they'd probably figure it out.
[1:14:44] So. Yeah. Well, the other thing that I was thinking is,
[1:14:47] you know, somebody mentioned that
[1:14:53] septic tanks are, are built to number
[1:14:58] of bedrooms they have to
[1:15:01] su supply to.
[1:15:05] And I think somebody said that the, the,
[1:15:09] the one lot has a building with four bedrooms on it,
[1:15:13] and this one is gonna be three bedrooms.
[1:15:15] So something I should ask the
[1:15:20] applicant was, is the existing tank, which is going
[1:15:23] to be shared, you know, suitable
[1:15:26] for seven bedrooms? You know,
[1:15:28] I, I, go ahead, Mr.
[1:15:31] Dong. The way I understood that was that there's
[1:15:34] an existing septic area on this lot
[1:15:37] that is servicing the lot, the other house 23
[1:15:41] as we were referring to it.
[1:15:43] And there's a whole new leaching field
[1:15:45] and septic system that will service this
[1:15:49] proposed three bedroom dwelling and proposed garage.
[1:15:53] And I, and I think what I had heard off of that also is
[1:15:56] that the, that the application for this septic is shared
[1:16:00] and, but all the design criteria
[1:16:03] and lot loading, the loading
[1:16:06] for the bedrooms are separate from both components are
[1:16:09] part of this design.
[1:16:10] Oh. And,
[1:16:12] and understanding that, that the septic design is, you know,
[1:16:16] it's, it's a good narrative that creates understanding
[1:16:20] for the board, but it's, it's,
[1:16:22] the permitting itself is not in our purview.
[1:16:25] Yep. Only to know that it's, it can be done. Anything else?
[1:16:33] No. Mr. Donlin, anything?
[1:16:37] Yeah, I got a few points.
[1:16:39] I, I think that there needs to be a
[1:16:44] emphasis on the major distinction
[1:16:46] between an existing non-conforming lot in a new
[1:16:51] subdivided lot off of a different parcel.
[1:16:54] To me, that's a huge distinction.
[1:16:57] As in, so if thi if this was hypothetically one four
[1:17:02] acre lot, they were trying to carve a one acre lot out
[1:17:05] of it, I would see this in a completely different light than
[1:17:07] an existing non-conforming lot that's been there for
[1:17:11] let's just say 50 plus years.
[1:17:12] Sure. And so you are, you're,
[1:17:17] you would just prefer clarity down the road, I guess
[1:17:21] I just wanted to bring that up
[1:17:22] for anybody who was listening.
[1:17:24] Okay. I guess I would have one more thing to say. Mr.
[1:17:27] True. The lady that was up here speaking, she said
[1:17:31] that her access was recorded in her deed.
[1:17:38] I, I guess I would have to ask, is this lots access
[1:17:43] recorded in its deed?
[1:17:47] I would get the sense that Whitney's Grove
[1:17:50] as it's class six and I'm, I'm guessing,
[1:17:52] but we could come out of protocol if you wanted
[1:17:55] to ask the question,
[1:17:57] but Whitney's Grove as it's a deeded access
[1:18:01] or as a Class six, is probably the deeded access for all
[1:18:05] of these parcels when they were created.
[1:18:09] Well, the thing is, it appears that this lot, which is
[1:18:13] 16 dash three, has access from 16
[1:18:18] dash 15 to Whitney's Grove.
[1:18:21] You know, so would,
[1:18:27] would it have in its deed that
[1:18:33] it would get that a access across
[1:18:36] 16 dash 15 to Whitney's Grove?
[1:18:41] When I'm looking on their deed that we have in our files,
[1:18:44] it does say processing lot 15 and 16 on their deed.
[1:18:49] Oh, alright. Good. Thank you Mr.
[1:18:52] Dani, you good there Mr. Tripp?
[1:18:55] I am. Okay. And so, Mr. Dani, anything else from you?
[1:19:00] No, I think Donnelley helped clarify it. Thank you.
[1:19:03] Okay. And Mr. Moore, you're all set?
[1:19:07] No, I had just one thing to go off of what Mr.
[1:19:10] Donnellan said. It is the preexisting non-conforming lot
[1:19:14] of record, but the town did own it just 10 years ago
[1:19:18] and nothing changed when it sold.
[1:19:20] So I just wanna make that point to have that on the record
[1:19:25] that it was town owned only 10 years ago.
[1:19:28] Okay.
[1:19:34] Alright. So in, in my regard
[1:19:37] and being have gone down this road myself in the past,
[1:19:41] usually lots of record that are historic,
[1:19:45] insulate themselves from some of the normal criteria,
[1:19:49] updated zoning ordinances that may
[1:19:54] commonly surround
[1:19:58] development of property.
[1:20:00] And overall, I, I don't,
[1:20:03] I'm not seeing a conflict with this.
[1:20:05] We've, we've granted this, that
[1:20:07] as Mrs. Moore has just indicated,
[1:20:09] the town owned this property 10 years ago.
[1:20:12] They sold that by the, the town sold it off by their right.
[1:20:18] And so that right should be perpetual
[1:20:20] to the next owners structuring the motion.
[1:20:25] We have subject to obtaining all state
[1:20:27] and town permits and inspections.
[1:20:30] The second condition on
[1:20:31] that would be a municipal waiver of liability.
[1:20:34] The board does not hold any
[1:20:40] delegation here to address maintenance of this road.
[1:20:44] It's a private road class six road.
[1:20:47] So that's not in our purview.
[1:20:50] Does anybody else have any other conditions they see
[1:20:53] appropriate on this motion
[1:20:54] before we come outta deliberation?
[1:20:58] No, I think where it's already allot of record.
[1:21:02] Very good. No gestures there.
[1:21:04] So in that case, let's come outta deliberation.
[1:21:07] Gimme a motion. Mr. Dani?
[1:21:09] Yeah, I a motion to come outta deliberation.
[1:21:13] I have a second please. Second. Thank you Mr.
[1:21:15] Donlin. Yours
[1:21:17] To read for.
[1:21:18] Can I read for you?
[1:21:20] Sure. There you go.
[1:21:22] All in favor of coming out of deliberation, say aye. Aye.
[1:21:26] Aye. Any opposed? Mrs. Moore,
[1:21:30] you have a motion to read?
[1:21:32] I do. Thank you. I make a motion on case number two six
[1:21:36] dash one promised land survey LLC
[1:21:41] to grant a variance as
[1:21:43] provided in Article three, section 1 65 dash nine
[1:21:48] of the town of dairy zoning ordinance in New Hampshire, RSA
[1:21:53] 6 7 4 4 1 to allow the construction
[1:21:57] of a single family dwelling on the lot,
[1:21:59] which does not have frontage on a town approved street
[1:22:04] on a town not approved street
[1:22:06] parcel ID 1 5 0 1 6 dash 0 0 3
[1:22:12] zoned LDR as presented
[1:22:14] with the following conditions we have two.
[1:22:17] One subject to obtaining all state
[1:22:19] and town permits and inspections.
[1:22:22] Two will require a municipal waiver of liability.
[1:22:26] And that concludes the reading of the motion.
[1:22:28] I need a second.
[1:22:30] Second. Alright. Thank you Mr. Tripp.
[1:22:36] That puts that motion on the table.
[1:22:40] I'm sorry, on the floor.
[1:22:44] That's like saying water over the bridge. Right. All right.
[1:22:48] Finding a fact for case number 26 dash
[1:22:54] one 11 Heard
[1:22:58] May 7th, 2026 as ZBA heard the application
[1:23:02] of promised land survey LLC on behalf of s
[1:23:05] and t nominee trust
[1:23:09] concerning the property located at 17 Whitneys Grove Road
[1:23:13] parcel ID 1 5 0 1 16 dash 0 0 3
[1:23:17] notice was provided to the immediate abut per statute.
[1:23:20] The board received testimony from the applicant,
[1:23:24] legal counsel, town staff, if appropriate it is
[1:23:29] and abutters in members of the public
[1:23:32] documentary evidence included,
[1:23:33] but was not limited to site plans, photos, records,
[1:23:36] and expert testimony.
[1:23:38] This is the, a pre-existing non-conforming lot of record
[1:23:42] with frontage on Whitney's Grove Road.
[1:23:45] A private class six road that is not maintained by the town
[1:23:49] property is located in the low density residential
[1:23:51] zoning district.
[1:23:53] This district requires a minimum of 200 feet
[1:23:55] of frontage along an approved public street.
[1:23:58] Therefore, a variance is being requested if approved.
[1:24:01] Per RSA 6 74 41 a notice of waiver
[1:24:06] of municipal liability
[1:24:07] and responsibility must be recorded
[1:24:09] with the deed Town council authorization is required
[1:24:12] to issue the building permit.
[1:24:14] The board weighed testimony both for
[1:24:17] and against the proposal.
[1:24:19] A And I've messed up the order here of, of our documents
[1:24:24] that are usually very well prepared till I
[1:24:28] get my hands on 'em.
[1:24:30] So in regards to the board's findings
[1:24:33] of fact on the contrary to the public interest, Mr.
[1:24:38] Donlin, what say you on that regard?
[1:24:42] Gimme one second. I already put my notes away.
[1:24:50] Do you find this meets the public interest? I
[1:24:52] Do find it meets the public interest.
[1:24:55] I don't see it as contrary as it's in keeping
[1:25:01] with the established ne
[1:25:03] neighborhood, for lack of a better term.
[1:25:06] Okay. Mr. Dani, how do you sit on the public interest?
[1:25:12] I don't see any controversy with
[1:25:15] No conflicts.
[1:25:16] No conflicts. Very good. Mr. Tripp,
[1:25:24] As the witnesses said there, this is a
[1:25:29] area that is fairly build up.
[1:25:35] You know, it's one of those things that the addition
[1:25:38] of one more house is not going to
[1:25:42] have that big of impact.
[1:25:44] Alright. Chair sees the public interest in this regard
[1:25:49] is, is met as it grants use
[1:25:54] of the property as the lot
[1:25:57] of record would intend Mrs. Morin.
[1:26:00] I agree. Where there's no new access is being provided.
[1:26:05] Very good
[1:26:14] Spirit of the ordinance.
[1:26:15] Mr. Donlin, you feel this meets the spirit of the ordinance?
[1:26:21] I do. As is an existing non-conforming lot.
[1:26:24] And they're not asking for relief in any
[1:26:27] dimensions or anything else. Just the road.
[1:26:30] Very good, Mr.
[1:26:35] Dani?
[1:26:36] I agree with Donlin.
[1:26:41] Okay. Mr. Trip,
[1:26:44] As Mr.
[1:26:47] Donlin said, this is the only
[1:26:51] variance they're requesting, they're
[1:26:53] otherwise compliant
[1:26:58] to the town's ordinances.
[1:27:00] Okay. This Mrs. Morin
[1:27:01] And Chair, I agree with what has been stated already
[1:27:04] that it is within the spirit.
[1:27:07] Okay.
[1:27:12] I I would concur.
[1:27:14] The spirit of the ordinance is met
[1:27:15] as the parcel is is dated.
[1:27:20] Lot of record, although it is non-conforming just to
[1:27:25] the later ordinance developments in in the community.
[1:27:33] Substantial justice.
[1:27:43] I'm gonna lead with that.
[1:27:44] The substantial justice is met as the,
[1:27:50] as the parcel can be developed as the intention
[1:27:54] that it in the intention that it was
[1:27:59] developed as a lot
[1:28:00] of record. Mr. Donlin?
[1:28:05] I agree. That's what my notes reflect as well.
[1:28:07] A lot of record
[1:28:10] Mr. Dani?
[1:28:11] I agree also. I,
[1:28:14] Mr.
[1:28:15] Trip
[1:28:16] What you said.
[1:28:18] Okay. Do you want me to say lot
[1:28:20] of record for you again?
[1:28:22] That would be fine. Okay. Mrs. Warren?
[1:28:25] I agree with what has been stated
[1:28:26] where it is an existing lot of record.
[1:28:29] Okay.
[1:28:34] Substantial justice.
[1:28:40] Did I just do the substantial justice number four?
[1:28:42] I'm sorry, but I'm writing in the names
[1:28:47] as we go of who's in attendance
[1:28:49] and trying to keep the five criteria separate.
[1:28:53] We're on number four. We're on number four.
[1:29:00] What
[1:29:00] Is number four?
[1:29:01] The value of surrounding properties.
[1:29:03] Okay. Thank you. Value of surrounding properties.
[1:29:06] Thank you. Mr.
[1:29:12] Donlin, do you find the the value
[1:29:13] of surrounding properties will be affected?
[1:29:18] I, my, I feel that the value
[1:29:21] of the surrounding properties will not be diminished.
[1:29:24] Okay. Generally
[1:29:29] speaking, the new construction tends to add values
[1:29:33] to surrounding properties as well as the cleanup
[1:29:37] and whatever else you have to do to the, to the lot
[1:29:41] to construct a home as well.
[1:29:44] Tends to clean up some debris
[1:29:46] and other things that kind
[1:29:48] of pile up in the woods over time.
[1:29:50] Okay. Mrs. Moore?
[1:29:52] Jerry, I agree that the, with new construction, it tends
[1:29:56] to increase value.
[1:29:58] Okay. I would say that substantial justice is done
[1:30:03] because the, or I'm sorry.
[1:30:04] Is that where we're at? Value surrounding value
[1:30:07] of surrounding properties is occurs
[1:30:10] because the development of this lot will help address some
[1:30:14] of the concerns that the Abutter had
[1:30:19] relative to traffic and, and fire hazard and safety.
[1:30:24] That the land will get, start to be cleaned up.
[1:30:26] Whereas before it was isolated
[1:30:29] and it was not so maintainable likely.
[1:30:33] I also see that due to the testimony participants
[1:30:38] occupying this area will help increase the maintenance
[1:30:42] of the Class six road.
[1:30:44] Mr. Trip.
[1:30:46] I think one of the good things that comes out of this is
[1:30:50] when you have one more person using the,
[1:30:55] the limited access, there's a possibility that
[1:31:00] people will get together and maybe improve the access.
[1:31:08] Who did I That'd Be me,
[1:31:10] Mr.
[1:31:11] Dani. Okay, go ahead.
[1:31:14] I agree with Mr. Trip.
[1:31:16] More people that can have access can maybe help
[1:31:19] improve that road as well.
[1:31:21] Very good. It does, does not diminish the values.
[1:31:23] I have all five people on record on that. Yes. Yes. Okay.
[1:31:26] Thank you.
[1:31:33] Hardship is demonstrated because Mr. Donlin,
[1:31:39] Literal enforcement of the provision in this case.
[1:31:43] Again, I I'm gonna go to the, to the law of record
[1:31:46] or existing non-conforming.
[1:31:48] There's no way, there's no,
[1:31:53] there is no 200 feet to be had.
[1:31:56] It's just what it is in this area.
[1:32:00] Okay, Mr. Tripp.
[1:32:03] Well that's, I would agree that
[1:32:10] there's no way that you could get 200 feet line of sight
[1:32:13] or front each.
[1:32:16] So the only way it could be developed would be to be,
[1:32:20] to give a variance to the,
[1:32:23] this particular ordinance code
[1:32:26] Mrs. Mor
[1:32:28] Chair.
[1:32:29] I agree. Where it would essentially be
[1:32:31] landlocked without it.
[1:32:33] Very good, Mr. Dani.
[1:32:36] And I would say because it's an existing lot that's,
[1:32:39] it's nonconforming,
[1:32:41] but that's its hardship
[1:32:44] to be able to be developed.
[1:32:47] Yeah. I I So I find that unnecessary hardship
[1:32:51] com applies here as the parcel is
[1:32:56] so isolated at a time when, when
[1:33:02] development is, is necessary in our, our region
[1:33:07] that this substantiates that
[1:33:09] and allows proper use of the proper of the parcel.
[1:33:14] I think that concludes all five of the five criteria
[1:33:18] for the finding of fact. All Do you
[1:33:21] Need to say the proposed use as a reasonable one?
[1:33:25] I'm sorry, again, Do you need to add
[1:33:26] that the proposed use is a reasonable one?
[1:33:28] No, I think we addressed the, the five adequately.
[1:33:31] Those are a lot of times either or. So in this regard.
[1:33:37] Oh, you have my motion, right?
[1:33:39] It's right here. Yep, that's fine. Okay.
[1:33:44] So the motion's been read all in favor
[1:33:45] of moving that for a vote.
[1:33:47] Say aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed? Mr. Dani?
[1:33:52] Yes. Mr. Donlin? Yes. Mr. Trip? Yes.
[1:33:57] Mrs. Morin? Yes.
[1:33:59] And the chair will make that unanimous
[1:34:01] by a vote of five to zero.
[1:34:02] So, congratulations. Your application has been approved.
[1:34:06] Anybody agree by this has 30 days to ask this board
[1:34:10] for reconsideration?
[1:34:11] After that would be to superior court. Okay.
[1:34:14] Have a good evening
[1:34:29] and welcome Mr.
[1:34:31] Corbett. Hello. Good evening.
[1:34:34] You guys we're all speaking very nice in your microphones.
[1:34:37] Fun to be on that side of things, sir.
[1:34:40] Oh, you could hear us very
[1:34:42] Well.
[1:34:43] I think I know where the weak link on the board is.
[1:34:45] Well, you know, if you, if you talk like this,
[1:34:49] then you're not speaking into the microphone. What about
[1:34:51] Back here?
[1:34:52] This doesn't,
[1:34:56] Well, it's a good thing when you're cute.
[1:34:58] Otherwise you'd get rid of it.
[1:35:03] Speak for yourself. I didn't say I was cute.
[1:35:10] All right. Next up on the agenda.
[1:35:13] It is case number 26 dash 1 0 7.
[1:35:19] Folks, you can sit there for right now.
[1:35:22] And just to let you know
[1:35:23] where we're at in our process per board policies,
[1:35:26] we are going to finish up
[1:35:29] Abutter rebuttal.
[1:35:35] We had taken names of people who wanted to speak to this
[1:35:38] before we adjourned the last meeting.
[1:35:40] So we're gonna go there and then you folks will have an
[1:35:43] opportunity to rebut testimony from the last prior meeting
[1:35:48] as well as this one here.
[1:35:49] Okay? That being the case, Mr.
[1:35:54] Cardin, I think, as I recall, was up here we had to, had
[1:35:58] to suspend testimony.
[1:36:01] So at that point, at this point,
[1:36:02] the testimony is open now for hearing. And
[1:36:05] Do you wanna note also for the record that Mr.
[1:36:08] Donlan will stay on and I will not be on
[1:36:11] It?
[1:36:12] That would be fine. Mr. Donlin, please remain for this case.
[1:36:15] Yes, sir.
[1:36:32] And good evening. Good evening.
[1:36:34] Tom Cardin to Cunningham Drive.
[1:36:39] You probably know I've been following this for
[1:36:42] a little over a year now.
[1:36:44] You know, bird Enterprises asking for a 50
[1:36:49] foot square pylon sign.
[1:36:52] My assumption was that the sign that that was taken down
[1:36:57] back in April, my assumption was that was gonna be the one
[1:37:00] that was gonna be, you know, put back up.
[1:37:03] And at the last,
[1:37:05] I think it was the last meeting in May, I think Mr.
[1:37:08] You know, they were discussing the, the size of it.
[1:37:11] I think Mr. Corbett came up
[1:37:12] with 42 square feet for the sign. Which,
[1:37:15] And I'm sorry to interrupt.
[1:37:16] I was gonna state this
[1:37:17] after I was incorrect on my measurements.
[1:37:19] What's that? I was incorrect on my measurements last time.
[1:37:21] You're incorrect. So I was going to bring that up.
[1:37:24] So thank you for leading. Sorry to interrupt.
[1:37:26] It is a 60 by one 20.
[1:37:29] Oh, it was 65.
[1:37:30] No, 60 feet, or sorry, 60 inches by 120 inches.
[1:37:33] So I then have to do the math, but I was off on my, all
[1:37:36] Right, so that's 50 square foot?
[1:37:39] Yes. Okay. And just to be clear, that's also two signs.
[1:37:43] One for each enterprise.
[1:37:45] Okay. Gotcha. Okay. Okay.
[1:37:46] So they're essentially 60 by 60 size signs.
[1:37:49] Okay. All right. Well that, that clarifies, that gets rid
[1:37:52] of my, my first paragraph here.
[1:37:54] So I do apologize to that confusion
[1:37:56] by No, that, that's quite all right.
[1:37:57] I just wanna make sure the information was correct.
[1:37:59] So I was kind of unsure as to exactly what a pylon sign was.
[1:38:03] So I did look up a couple of definitions of a pylon sign.
[1:38:08] You know, as a pylon sign is a tall,
[1:38:10] freestanding outdoor sign supported by one or more steel
[1:38:13] or aluminum poles, typically exceeding eight feet in height
[1:38:17] and offer high visibility from a distance commonly used
[1:38:20] for shopping centers, gas station hotels, near highways
[1:38:24] that are often internally illuminated.
[1:38:28] The other one was a pylon of signs of freestanding
[1:38:31] advertising structure supported by one
[1:38:33] or two vertical signs.
[1:38:34] The sign is prominently from the ground,
[1:38:37] often visible from across multiple lanes or intersections.
[1:38:39] This makes them particularly valuable for businesses located
[1:38:44] near high speed roads or large parking areas.
[1:38:46] And you know, to me the, you know, the pylon sign is really
[1:38:51] for a commercial area and,
[1:38:52] and definitely not for a, not for a neighborhood.
[1:38:58] And I'm not gonna read one section,
[1:39:00] I'm not gonna read section 1 65 1 0 1 0.1
[1:39:04] 'cause I know we've all read it.
[1:39:05] But I just do wanna point out two things.
[1:39:07] And one of us says, you know,
[1:39:09] the sign does not exceed 24 square feet in area
[1:39:13] and one unlit sign.
[1:39:16] So, you know, clearly the, the ordinance is, wants
[1:39:20] to limit the size and the scope
[1:39:22] of signs in a, in a neighborhood.
[1:39:26] I think the sign is contrary to the spirit of the ordinance
[1:39:28] and is not consistent
[1:39:29] with the character of the neighborhood.
[1:39:33] You know, I know Mr. Yco had, had stated in a,
[1:39:36] in a previous meeting that, that it was a hardship
[1:39:39] for him not having the sign.
[1:39:41] And I, I thought about that last week
[1:39:42] and I was like, if I'm, if I'm looking for a facility for,
[1:39:48] you know, for baseball
[1:39:50] and I have a kid that I want him to him
[1:39:53] or her to access their, their
[1:39:58] baseball skills, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go online
[1:40:01] and I'm gonna look for, for a, a facility that does that.
[1:40:04] So I did like, so I googled
[1:40:06] baseball training facilities in Southern New Hampshire.
[1:40:09] And there was, there was, there was a few of 'em.
[1:40:11] There was the one in Exeter,
[1:40:14] there was a couple in Manchester, one in Epping, man,
[1:40:19] Nashua, and of course in dairy.
[1:40:21] So I googled four of them and they all had pretty good ones.
[1:40:26] They all had had pretty good websites.
[1:40:28] But I, I looked at, I looked at, at, at
[1:40:33] Northeast Elite Athletics
[1:40:35] and it stated that it empowers athletes of all ages
[1:40:38] to reach their highest potential in a supportive environment
[1:40:42] where athletes can develop skills, build character,
[1:40:44] and grow with confidence.
[1:40:46] If I'm looking for a baseball facility for my kid to go to,
[1:40:48] that's gonna be the one that I'm gonna look at first.
[1:40:51] I mean, they had an excellent website.
[1:40:53] I have to compliment 'em for that.
[1:40:55] But my point about all this is,
[1:40:58] is it's not gonna be the sign
[1:40:59] that really is gonna be the draw.
[1:41:00] You know, you're gonna look at the, you,
[1:41:02] you're gonna look at, you're gonna look at the website.
[1:41:05] Other people, you're gonna speak to people
[1:41:06] that might go there and, you know, the website is the draw.
[1:41:11] Google map will get 'em there.
[1:41:13] And a sign certainly is gonna be what they're going to look
[1:41:17] for when they, when they finally get there.
[1:41:20] So do they deserve a sign?
[1:41:21] You know, without question, I think everybody realizes they
[1:41:23] need a sign, you know, and,
[1:41:26] and in all honesty,
[1:41:27] Byrd Enterprise is not a bad fit for the area.
[1:41:31] I mean, I think it could be,
[1:41:33] I think it could be a lot worse.
[1:41:34] And, you know, I hope this sign mess gets straightened out
[1:41:38] for them sooner or later.
[1:41:41] And, you know, I, I do wish 'em the best,
[1:41:43] but I, I think the 50 foot square foot
[1:41:47] pylon sign is really not in
[1:41:49] best interest of the neighborhood. Thank you.
[1:41:51] Hang on a second. Anybody have any questions?
[1:41:55] If, if the board approves this
[1:41:57] Yeah.
[1:41:58] How, how do you become aggrieved by it?
[1:42:02] I can say probably not.
[1:42:05] Okay. Well we accept the testimony
[1:42:07] and understand we try to find direct abutters,
[1:42:10] which is usually our cue.
[1:42:11] But I, this question gets looked over
[1:42:15] and being somebody that probably travels down
[1:42:18] that road frequently all the time, you know, I,
[1:42:21] I feel gives you a window to be able express your feelings
[1:42:24] and thank you.
[1:42:25] Think they're articulated well.
[1:42:27] No, I appreciate that. I know I'm not a direct letter.
[1:42:29] Alright. Very good. Thank you. Yep. Anybody else?
[1:42:36] This is just opposition right now.
[1:42:51] Good evening.
[1:42:53] Good evening Will Davison one.
[1:42:54] Wishing Hu Lane Director butter speaking in opposition
[1:42:58] of the proposed sign.
[1:43:00] Wanna be clear? I'm a hundred percent opposed
[1:43:03] to this sign the size of the sign.
[1:43:08] As you know, we had an opportunity
[1:43:09] to see this sign in place without the reader board
[1:43:12] for several months without the reader board on
[1:43:19] it did not and still does not fit
[1:43:21] the character of the neighborhood.
[1:43:23] The sign is visible for more than half of the year
[1:43:26] in my house in my yard.
[1:43:30] I could see it clearly from many windows
[1:43:34] and in many places within my yard.
[1:43:38] And that's between November one and mid-May.
[1:43:43] Allowing this oversized sign is
[1:43:45] of this scale simply does not make sense in this area.
[1:43:50] I also agree to testimony from several neighbors
[1:43:54] last time that we were here
[1:43:56] that this song sign just does not belong here.
[1:44:00] Others have documented opposition, including Andrew
[1:44:04] and Jessica than nearby.
[1:44:07] Business signs are far more reasonable in size
[1:44:11] and these businesses have been in successful within our
[1:44:15] area for decades.
[1:44:18] So the, the size of the sign that they have
[1:44:22] is far more reasonable.
[1:44:24] That was documented through Andrew's
[1:44:29] photos that he put in place.
[1:44:33] As a reminder, my realtor had told, told us
[1:44:36] that our property value was ta already taken hit just simply
[1:44:39] because the business is there.
[1:44:43] They also provided a letter
[1:44:44] that the oversight sign would add additional
[1:44:48] devaluation of my property.
[1:44:51] We submitted that documentation within
[1:44:54] the original proposal.
[1:44:56] I have copies of it here to resubmit tonight.
[1:44:59] So you have that on record.
[1:45:04] I understand that this proposal may ultimately be approved.
[1:45:10] If that happens, then the board owes it to the entire town.
[1:45:12] That to state clearly
[1:45:14] and specifically what is being approved
[1:45:16] and how that approval satisfies the five requirements.
[1:45:23] I also think that the, the board owes to the town
[1:45:28] and the neighbors clear interpretation
[1:45:32] of what's being approved left to being vague,
[1:45:37] already caused many problems.
[1:45:39] Right? So this last time around very vague of
[1:45:41] what was approved, very prob problematic to everybody.
[1:45:45] So I think, you know, we really need
[1:45:49] to have clear definition of exactly the size of the sign.
[1:45:54] Whether the signs should be backlit, the maximum,
[1:45:57] maximum brightness of the signs.
[1:46:02] Who's measuring the brightness of these signs
[1:46:05] when they get measured?
[1:46:06] How often, because we've heard testimony
[1:46:09] that there's the ability to turn it up
[1:46:11] and down now so that that could be an issue.
[1:46:17] That, and then the hours, these signs will be illuminated.
[1:46:22] These details should not be left open
[1:46:25] to interpretation or manipulation.
[1:46:30] This, this concern also applies
[1:46:32] to the two already very large signs on the building,
[1:46:35] which I find very intrusive from my house.
[1:46:37] Very, you know, they're very large.
[1:46:40] I have pictures that I can provide from my yard.
[1:46:45] I still don't know exactly what was approved the first time
[1:46:47] for those signs on the building,
[1:46:49] whether they should have been back lit,
[1:46:52] how large they should have been.
[1:46:55] I don't know if any of us know what was actually approved.
[1:47:01] Having a clear definition of is very paramount to
[1:47:07] make us all aware of what should be, you know,
[1:47:11] what we're being approved tonight.
[1:47:19] So I'm a little lost in my words here.
[1:47:21] So, for the reasons I asked the board
[1:47:22] to deny this request tonight, if the board chooses
[1:47:26] to approve it, then I ask
[1:47:28] that the approval be narrowly written, fully defined,
[1:47:31] and enforceable in clear terms so that residents
[1:47:34] and applicants and the town all understand
[1:47:37] exactly what is permitted.
[1:47:42] Lastly, I just want to say that the public
[1:47:47] input matters when abuts come forward.
[1:47:51] They deserve the board's full attention and respect.
[1:47:56] I hope the concerns raised
[1:47:58] by the residents are taken seriously
[1:47:59] and reflected in the care.
[1:48:01] Careful, transparent decisions you folks make tonight.
[1:48:09] Wasn't very happy about the last meeting
[1:48:11] and some actions that I had seen
[1:48:16] with the abutters when they came to, to sit here and speak.
[1:48:20] It felt as though it didn't even feel I saw people,
[1:48:26] the, your board members on their cell phone on iPads,
[1:48:30] heads down doodling when the Abutter spoke.
[1:48:35] And it was a different story when the applicant
[1:48:38] applicant came and spoke.
[1:48:42] You're referring to the May 7th,
[1:48:45] The last meeting. Yep.
[1:48:46] I, I think one thing you might look at is that,
[1:48:49] and I think this gets,
[1:48:50] I I don't wanna take you off your points
[1:48:52] 'cause I want to address 'em all,
[1:48:53] but there are calculations going on as,
[1:48:57] as there's testimony given it's even now I'm writing every,
[1:49:01] all your points and I want to address 'em.
[1:49:04] But it's writing or working on the details of it. Okay.
[1:49:08] No one's watching the Red Sox. Okay. For two reasons.
[1:49:12] One, 'cause they're here because
[1:49:13] they're not very good this year.
[1:49:15] Totally agree with that. Rough year. Rough year.
[1:49:21] Did you con, did you, that concludes
[1:49:23] what I wanted to kind of say.
[1:49:25] Alright.
[1:49:27] How many copies of The letter do you have? I have
[1:49:29] Six.
[1:49:30] There's gonna be, so is this the same
[1:49:32] letter that from last year?
[1:49:33] Okay. That's in the file and don't, okay. But I
[1:49:35] Thought that we couldn't bring stuff from that to this.
[1:49:38] I'll make a motion because we
[1:49:39] couldn't talk about that last meeting
[1:49:40] In this meeting.
[1:49:41] That's, it's, it's still in the file as part
[1:49:43] of the testimony, but we can accept it. Yeah, I'll
[1:49:45] Make a motion to accept it.
[1:49:46] Okay. We can it over? Yeah. I got a second.
[1:49:49] Jim, can you second that second my motion
[1:49:52] to, to accept the document.
[1:49:55] Second. Thank you.
[1:49:58] My name's Brenda Davison. I live at one wishing well.
[1:50:01] Lane again. Brenda Davison.
[1:50:04] I live at one wishing well. Lane,
[1:50:07] I still can't understand you.
[1:50:09] David Davidson at one wishing well. Lane. Thank you.
[1:50:11] Talking, wishing, Wishing well. Oh, thank you
[1:50:15] Again.
[1:50:16] I'm against it. I've been against it since the beginning.
[1:50:19] The whole sign, not just the message board.
[1:50:24] And I'm really having trouble trying to figure out
[1:50:28] when I read these five criteria,
[1:50:33] how he's meeting those.
[1:50:36] IJI just, I spent a lot of time today like reading 'em
[1:50:39] and I'm not sure you know him saying
[1:50:42] that he's losing business, he's not gonna get
[1:50:45] as many people in there.
[1:50:47] That has nothing to do with the variance,
[1:50:51] financial gain, any of that.
[1:50:54] It's not a hardship.
[1:50:56] So I don't think that meets the criteria.
[1:51:02] It should be a land-based hardship.
[1:51:06] He has room to put a sign. He doesn't need a big, huge sign.
[1:51:12] So
[1:51:13] Can I, can I get you to pause there
[1:51:15] and I don't want to take you off your points.
[1:51:18] Your husband will Right. Made some points.
[1:51:22] Let's work through those and then we'll come back around.
[1:51:24] Okay. 'cause I think some of what I'm hearing on your,
[1:51:28] from your point of view, you know, we'll come back
[1:51:32] to the board's deliberation on those points.
[1:51:37] But I'm also hearing some things that you're starting to say
[1:51:40] that may get cleared up as I address your husband's issues.
[1:51:44] Okay? Okay. The,
[1:51:49] the view of the sign and from November to May, is that
[1:51:53] because it was lighted or was that
[1:51:55] because of Its, its existence.
[1:51:58] It's huge size. Okay. And and
[1:52:02] There's no leaves on the trees that time either.
[1:52:05] Yeah. So you're referencing the, just the size overall
[1:52:09] as the biggest issue for you on that, in
[1:52:11] that timeframe that you see it.
[1:52:14] So I, let me address it two ways.
[1:52:17] One, the current size is way too large for where we live
[1:52:21] and it doesn't meet the character
[1:52:25] of where that sits.
[1:52:28] Secondly, the brightness
[1:52:29] of the signs when they were lit were ridiculous.
[1:52:33] I understand. So the brightness part is why I, I asked
[1:52:37] for clarity on the November to may issue, which is,
[1:52:40] which is referencing the lighting.
[1:52:42] So if there's no lighting on that size on that sign
[1:52:45] as it sits still on it, this is still an issue for you.
[1:52:49] Yep. The size is still not acceptable.
[1:52:51] Height and, and because of height
[1:52:53] or what is the girth? Girth. Okay.
[1:52:56] You still see it from our house. What's girth round?
[1:53:01] The large, the largeness of it. The total
[1:53:03] Volume. Total
[1:53:04] Volume of it.
[1:53:05] Right. So it's 65 square, square feet I think,
[1:53:09] what was the new math?
[1:53:11] 62 6 2 5 by, sorry.
[1:53:15] Two 60 inch by 60 inch signs.
[1:53:16] So it comes out to about 2 25 square inch.
[1:53:19] So 50 square feet total.
[1:53:22] I, my drawing says 1 0 2 by 60,
[1:53:26] which is 42 in change.
[1:53:28] Yeah. Then it was, so
[1:53:30] We'll have to get clarification on that after.
[1:53:31] Yeah. 'cause then we got, Carrie pointed me to the new one
[1:53:33] to be looking at last week.
[1:53:35] 'cause that was where I got caught up as well.
[1:53:36] Again, it, this is where I'm looking for clarity is
[1:53:39] what are we approving?
[1:53:41] I, I'm presuming Right, I can't hear you.
[1:53:44] I am, if you could lean to the mic a little bit more for
[1:53:48] Mr.
[1:53:49] Trip. How about now? If I can't hear you, I'll tell you.
[1:53:52] Thank you.
[1:53:55] Rude. So for right now, we'll just go
[1:53:57] that it's 2 25 foot square,
[1:54:01] 25 square foot signs.
[1:54:03] Yep. Okay. If we hear different,
[1:54:06] we hear different from the,
[1:54:08] when the abutter has their second rebuttal.
[1:54:10] Okay. The other signs on the building,
[1:54:16] that ship has sailed.
[1:54:19] But are you indicating
[1:54:20] that those are lit on the building as well?
[1:54:24] Not as of today, but I would assume
[1:54:29] that once approved probably we'll see
[1:54:32] that lights will be back on on some of these signs.
[1:54:41] Okay. Again, I guess again,
[1:54:45] i I don't know clearly what's going to be approved.
[1:54:47] Right, right. So that's part of the problem.
[1:54:51] Yeah, I I get it. We're it's kind of through it, right?
[1:54:55] Sure. And your questions, your concerns.
[1:54:58] The applicant has an opportunity to rebut,
[1:55:00] which will take you back to your wife's where she's leading
[1:55:04] and going towards five criteria
[1:55:06] and how the board evaluates it.
[1:55:08] Right. And, you know, I'm not,
[1:55:12] I'm not just disregarding the broker opinion on this.
[1:55:17] I think you had indicated that when the app,
[1:55:19] former application
[1:55:20] for this property was presented last year, I think you felt
[1:55:26] perhaps my comments were condescending,
[1:55:28] which were not intended that way.
[1:55:31] However, the board
[1:55:33] and higher courts do allow the zoning board
[1:55:38] members to evaluate the, the authenticity
[1:55:42] or the reality of what's presented.
[1:55:44] I understand that the applicant as well has presented a,
[1:55:49] a real estate opinion that contradicts you,
[1:55:53] the one that you've presented.
[1:55:54] Yeah, of course it's not being discarded, but it's
[1:55:57] You're saying my property value's gonna go
[1:55:59] up because of business is there
[1:56:00] No, but I, but I am saying thank you.
[1:56:03] They're, thank you're not, they're, they're saying to you
[1:56:04] that it's, it, their present presentation is
[1:56:07] that it's not necessarily affected in the way that your,
[1:56:10] your has been portrayed.
[1:56:11] Alright. So it's up to the board individually
[1:56:14] to evaluate the reality of that broker opinion.
[1:56:18] Right. Lastly,
[1:56:23] what I'm hearing is the signs in the building are backlit,
[1:56:30] and I think you said on the, on the building, but I wa
[1:56:33] but I think I make that note to the backlight sign.
[1:56:37] You know, Mr. Corbett made a point on the,
[1:56:41] in the last meeting relative to whether
[1:56:43] or not the sign should be backlit
[1:56:46] or it should be external.
[1:56:50] External. I think that there was a comment
[1:56:56] indicating that Mr.
[1:56:58] Corbett may have been being derogatory to the,
[1:57:00] to the community.
[1:57:02] But I, I didn't take it that way. I think Mr.
[1:57:05] Trip has pointed out that in the planning board review,
[1:57:09] the building had been vandalized severely
[1:57:12] fire extinguishers.
[1:57:15] And we do know this to be the case.
[1:57:17] And those images were shown at the planning board.
[1:57:20] So I think the reality is that even though Mr.
[1:57:23] Corbett wasn't going that way, the reality is
[1:57:25] that in his own experiences with small children, Halloween
[1:57:31] kids can run off the beaten path and trip over light.
[1:57:35] So I'm taking it back to your point, which is backlit
[1:57:39] of this, of this current sign that we're dealing with
[1:57:43] or externally lit.
[1:57:46] Do you have an opinion on that? Either way?
[1:57:51] I guess my opinion would be if there were
[1:57:55] a right side sign with some lights kind of
[1:57:59] shining down on this sign from both sides
[1:58:05] probably would be okay.
[1:58:06] Or not popular here,
[1:58:09] but some lights in the ground pointing up to that sign.
[1:58:13] So those are externally lit? Yes. Yeah.
[1:58:16] Okay. My, I just have a question.
[1:58:19] And so my fear with the external light where I brought up,
[1:58:21] and again my, I just wanna reiterate my head was not,
[1:58:24] I'm looking at the pictures of the,
[1:58:26] the bour windows now my head was not there
[1:58:27] when I brought that point up.
[1:58:29] I was really just, we have a projection up at Halloween,
[1:58:31] the kids just knock one of the things over.
[1:58:33] That's where my head was going.
[1:58:34] That if this light got hit, would you be at all worried
[1:58:38] that it would then shine at your house?
[1:58:39] Because that's no, to be honest. Okay.
[1:58:41] 'cause that's honestly my number one concern with that is
[1:58:44] that all of a sudden you have a beacon,
[1:58:45] you know, hitting you in your living room.
[1:58:47] Sure. And, and this isn't about the
[1:58:48] light, this is about the sign.
[1:58:50] Yep. Yep. But that one, that one
[1:58:53] separation has been the one part,
[1:58:54] but the internal external, as I, as we get further with it,
[1:58:59] I think there's, to your point, there's a few things
[1:59:01] that have to be weighed out here and really have
[1:59:03] to be clear, very clearly defined before a yes or a no vote.
[1:59:06] Either way it has to be laid out
[1:59:08] that we're voting yes or no on it.
[1:59:10] And the light is something that I would like just
[1:59:12] to have addressed.
[1:59:14] Like what we saw before is
[1:59:15] that it looks like there is a down lighting,
[1:59:17] there was internal lighting, there's a lot
[1:59:19] of lighting taking place.
[1:59:20] And now what I see is an opportunity, at least
[1:59:23] to your point, to tighten it up
[1:59:25] and now to really get this in and
[1:59:27] before I suggest an external light,
[1:59:29] that's just really something I want to check
[1:59:31] that we're not now putting you in a spot that
[1:59:33] if a year down the road it's there, you're not,
[1:59:36] I curse me one way or another, but not
[1:59:38] because of a beacon, you know,
[1:59:39] shining at you is really just what I'm trying to avoid.
[1:59:42] Sure. Sometimes you have to wear it a little bit though.
[1:59:44] You just don't know until you don't know.
[1:59:47] No, completely understood. And
[1:59:49] that's all I was just asking for this one.
[1:59:51] So now that we've kind of narrowed some
[1:59:54] of these points down as David's not give you back the floor.
[1:59:58] I mean another thing with the, the signs on the building,
[2:00:01] they're really bright.
[2:00:03] There's two, they're pretty big
[2:00:06] and you can see those from the road quite easily.
[2:00:09] Okay. So does he need the big huge pylon sign
[2:00:14] if he has those as well? No, I don don't.
[2:00:16] Could you speak into the microphone?
[2:00:19] So, Okay.
[2:00:22] Yeah, so it's, you know, you're, you're,
[2:00:24] what you're getting at is that the,
[2:00:27] the building has lights on it.
[2:00:29] The signs on the building are lit.
[2:00:33] I think we heard testimony that suggests that
[2:00:36] that's going to be controlled.
[2:00:39] Understanding that the board's review
[2:00:44] in the issues related to the lighting being on as much
[2:00:48] as it was not having enforcement being able to catch up with
[2:00:53] that was a disappointment I think
[2:00:57] to the board in general.
[2:00:58] So I think we're in tune to what you're saying
[2:01:01] and perhaps the balance between the
[2:01:05] signs on the building
[2:01:07] and lights for this sign get evaluated and,
[2:01:12] and look at a balance for
[2:01:13] That.
[2:01:14] Oh, I don't want the big sign.
[2:01:15] I'm sorry. I don't want the the
[2:01:16] huge pylon sign regardless.
[2:01:18] I understand. Okay.
[2:01:24] Oh, Jim's thing. Yep.
[2:01:29] I did have a question about where'd that go?
[2:01:37] Okay. Yeah. Were you gonna let
[2:01:42] other people speak tonight?
[2:01:44] This is the rebuttal for the abutters per board policy.
[2:01:49] Was Mr, would Mr. Foley be allowed to speak tonight? No.
[2:01:52] Okay, then I'm gonna read something for him. Okay. Mr.
[2:01:57] Corbett was incorrect when he stated
[2:01:59] that the plaintiffs didn't prove bias
[2:02:01] during the superior court hearing.
[2:02:03] It was as with so much that case, the lack of a record
[2:02:06] provided by the minutes of those hearings.
[2:02:09] The bias shown by this board is not just in the
[2:02:12] confrontational, dismissive
[2:02:15] and argumentative manner in which the board addresses any
[2:02:18] that oppose the granting of this variance,
[2:02:20] which includes interruptions of statements, accusations
[2:02:23] of filibustering, admonishments
[2:02:26] and anecdotal anecdotal statements in arguing case law.
[2:02:30] None of these behaviors have been directed at the applicant.
[2:02:34] I believe this is a tactic to make us lose our train
[2:02:37] of thought and frustrate us in presenting our case.
[2:02:40] Would also note that not, I would also note
[2:02:43] that only when those
[2:02:44] who oppose the application were presenting Mr.
[2:02:47] Dietzel was on his personal device
[2:02:48] and not appearing to pay attention.
[2:02:51] It's also clear that this board is desperately trying
[2:02:53] to find theory that would allow them
[2:02:56] to get the result they want.
[2:02:58] The board, not the applicant who has the burden
[2:03:01] of proof brought up the issue
[2:03:03] of whether the new variance application was significantly
[2:03:06] different than the previous overturned variance request.
[2:03:09] The board focused on their own actions from the previous
[2:03:12] hearing and not the current application, claiming
[2:03:15] that they had only discussed one part of the sign
[2:03:17] and not the entire sign.
[2:03:19] This is not reflected in minutes of the previous
[2:03:22] and at least two members
[2:03:23] of the previous voted against the sign.
[2:03:26] As for decision that the slightly smaller backlit,
[2:03:30] oversized commercial sign being materially different from
[2:03:34] the previous sign strains credibility
[2:03:37] as both New Hampshire Supreme cases
[2:03:40] and the New Hampshire Municipal Association.
[2:03:42] Handbooks make clear, minor inconsequential tweaks
[2:03:47] like a slight reduction in square footage are rejected
[2:03:52] the strange tangent by this board
[2:03:54] and not by the applicant into the planning board hearing.
[2:03:57] And in some fashion their decision creates a hardship
[2:04:00] that would allow the granting of the variance.
[2:04:03] So like Mr. Tripp,
[2:04:04] although I have no idea why this is relevant,
[2:04:06] watch the video of the planning board hearing,
[2:04:09] have read the minutes and have reviewed the plans submitted
[2:04:12] by the applicant except for a notation on the plans of
[2:04:15] where the old church sign was.
[2:04:17] The applicant does not bring up,
[2:04:19] nor does the planning board discuss
[2:04:20] or place into their finding any mention
[2:04:22] of an oversized backlit commercial sign for the property.
[2:04:26] The notion of how busy Hampstead Road could create a
[2:04:29] hardship is another theory raised by this board,
[2:04:31] which has no basis in law of facts.
[2:04:35] And I, he has copies of stuff
[2:04:37] that he would like submitted for the record.
[2:04:40] I will say I did talk to the planning board director today
[2:04:42] to ask about the sign
[2:04:45] and she said that the sign,
[2:04:49] the old church sign was on the plan
[2:04:53] and that he didn't present that there was a new sign
[2:04:57] or what's the new sign was gonna be.
[2:04:58] And he had told her that when he knows
[2:05:03] what he is doing for a sign, they would go in front
[2:05:04] of the zoning board for it.
[2:05:06] So just to kind of clarify,
[2:05:07] 'cause I know they, somebody said something about the
[2:05:10] planning board should have done it
[2:05:11] or dropped the ball or whatever, but
[2:05:13] I don't, so I did talk to her too.
[2:05:14] We said that they dropped the ball,
[2:05:16] but the site plan does show
[2:05:18] where the new sign would would be
[2:05:20] and it's on that site plan of record.
[2:05:23] So Yeah, I think it just lacked
[2:05:26] of size or anything about it. Right.
[2:05:28] And right. Understand. Apparently
[2:05:29] He told her that.
[2:05:31] So in regards to the statement that you just read,
[2:05:34] let's be clear that's not your statement.
[2:05:36] That is Mr. Foley's.
[2:05:37] What Mr. Foley doesn't seem
[2:05:39] to understand is case law Daniels v London dairy requires
[2:05:43] that the board engage on all points that are presented.
[2:05:46] Otherwise it is applicable for remanding back to the board.
[2:05:52] And so, as Mr. Foley gives his testimony,
[2:05:54] and I'm trying to stop him
[2:05:56] and so I can question certain points he's making,
[2:05:59] same way I've done with both of you.
[2:06:02] He doesn't seem to have the temperament to want
[2:06:04] to hear our questions.
[2:06:06] We don't want to rehear cases,
[2:06:08] but it's Daniel's v London Dairy that creates the, the,
[2:06:13] the path that this board engages
[2:06:15] and asks questions back and forth.
[2:06:18] And I think the false testimony of Mr. Foley both in court
[2:06:23] and in front of his town council
[2:06:24] and then coming up with his accusations as he does, I think
[2:06:29] that paints a larger picture.
[2:06:31] You're saying he lied in court.
[2:06:33] I'm saying he misrepresented points. Hmm.
[2:06:36] Okay. Okay. I think you found,
[2:06:39] I hope you found this engagement fair with you.
[2:06:42] I did. But you guys, I I know fairness,
[2:06:44] you interrupted him a lot.
[2:06:46] Much different all lot tonight than
[2:06:48] what Jim was treated the other night. Yeah. Bang
[2:06:50] A hundred yelling, banging and telling's
[2:06:53] Done.
[2:06:54] He's bringing points up that we have a right to ask him
[2:06:56] for clarity on and he doesn't want to hear any clarity.
[2:06:59] He's already positioned in his mind
[2:07:02] that there's some conspiracy going on versus understanding
[2:07:07] what the process is.
[2:07:08] And I'm willing to bet he doesn't even know
[2:07:10] what Daniel's v London dairy is
[2:07:14] From my point of view.
[2:07:16] I just want to say watching it unfold that night,
[2:07:19] he was interrupted several times, couldn't,
[2:07:22] couldn't gain back his train
[2:07:23] of thought several times. Right.
[2:07:25] Like tonight you waited and you asked at the end
[2:07:28] Much different. Just much different, much
[2:07:30] Different.
[2:07:31] Well he, he throws a lot at you
[2:07:32] and you're trying to bring the temperament down
[2:07:35] and engage in each of those points.
[2:07:39] I, I paused you and Brenda, right? Yeah.
[2:07:44] So I can get clarity on Will's points. Yeah.
[2:07:47] And, and you try to digest these a little bit at a time
[2:07:51] when there's such belligerence coming at you, it's hard
[2:07:55] to get that belligerence to put a pause, make a note of
[2:07:59] where they're at and engage in the questions
[2:08:01] that are being presented.
[2:08:03] Probably vice versa too. I do feel like
[2:08:09] the point he was trying to make was
[2:08:12] we're making this about a sign and not the land use
[2:08:18] and the five criteria that the applicant needs to meet.
[2:08:22] Well he, I think the board's
[2:08:24] gonna come back around to that.
[2:08:25] But one of the comments that I made that he totally
[2:08:28] disagreed and blew off, I don't even know if he heard it,
[2:08:31] which was that these points were discussed.
[2:08:34] They did not get conveyed to the certified record.
[2:08:38] Hence it goes into the next court.
[2:08:41] And some of that record is skewed.
[2:08:44] I don't believe that everything that was was
[2:08:49] provided in the court was accurate.
[2:08:51] But that being said, that engagement occurred,
[2:08:55] the court made its decision.
[2:08:57] And I will also say to you that relative in reflection of
[2:09:00] that decision, it's caused this board
[2:09:04] to take a larger look at this, at these ordinances.
[2:09:10] And I think you're gonna hear that
[2:09:12] as we move forward. Great.
[2:09:14] Can we submit this? What do you for record,
[2:09:17] do you have there Mr. Foley's? Statement?
[2:09:19] Statement and he had some
[2:09:21] Well, I'll tell you what, just give it to Ms.
[2:09:23] Zan and keep it with you Ms. Zan.
[2:09:24] You can put it in the file if you'd like. Alright.
[2:09:27] I think we've heard testimony.
[2:09:29] So any, anything more for me?
[2:09:31] Any questions for these folks? Anybody?
[2:09:34] I know Mr. Trip has one. Mr. Trip.
[2:09:36] Alright, we, me too.
[2:09:39] I I'd like to thank you for coming tonight
[2:09:43] and providing testimony.
[2:09:46] 'cause anything that we can get that clarifies
[2:09:52] what the problem is
[2:09:56] and what a possible resolution would be is appreciated.
[2:10:02] I think some of the suggestions you, you made about
[2:10:09] the verification method of, you know, what the lighting is,
[2:10:14] should there be lighting would be a, a a,
[2:10:19] a good step, a step in the right direction
[2:10:21] because typically we take
[2:10:27] testimony on, you know, lighting
[2:10:30] and the, the applicant presents
[2:10:36] expert testimony as to, you know, what the lumens are
[2:10:41] and when the light's gonna be operated
[2:10:43] and da dah da da, you know,
[2:10:46] and we, we accept that we don't question it, you know,
[2:10:50] because they're experts
[2:10:51] and you know, I, I wouldn't know what Illumina is if
[2:10:55] I saw it, but I
[2:11:01] I have a question for you.
[2:11:05] You said you're on wishing well Road Lane. Yeah.
[2:11:07] Wishing well. Lane Road. I'm sorry. That shows it.
[2:11:13] So this is at the rear of the property, I believe.
[2:11:17] Say Again? The which,
[2:11:18] and well, lane is at the rear of the property.
[2:11:22] It's across the street from
[2:11:23] It directly across the street from the sign
[2:11:26] Di Directly across the street from the building inside.
[2:11:29] I'm sorry, decorate directly across Hampstead Road. Yes.
[2:11:33] Okay. So, so you have a,
[2:11:39] you great view, a fairly good view of it then?
[2:11:42] Yes. This is my view from my front lawn.
[2:11:47] I'm happy to provide this for you. Yes.
[2:11:49] I motion to, to take that.
[2:11:50] I think you guys had mentioned
[2:11:51] that a couple of meetings ago.
[2:11:53] I was hoping to see that. Thank you.
[2:11:56] That's our front lawn, our backyard.
[2:11:58] Second. Thank you Mr.
[2:12:01] All in favor of the accepting the photo. Say aye,
[2:12:04] These Are from the front lawn
[2:12:06] Standing right in my front. I
[2:12:08] Have the pictures from the backyard.
[2:12:09] Alright. When it was lit,
[2:12:14] I, I think one of the things that
[2:12:18] the chairman had mentioned was that
[2:12:25] We were probably half to two thirds through
[2:12:30] one of the hearings when it was mentioned by someone that
[2:12:35] the lights were on 24 hours a day.
[2:12:38] Yes. You know, well I don't drive down window
[2:12:42] Hamstead road a lot, so,
[2:12:44] and I, I barely, rarely go out at night.
[2:12:47] So I would, you know,
[2:12:48] and I think there's a lot of people that on the,
[2:12:50] on the board that would concur with me
[2:12:52] that we were unaware of that.
[2:12:57] You know, I I,
[2:13:00] and I did speak with Carrie
[2:13:05] and she said that they never went out at night to see, so
[2:13:08] that they wouldn't know either, you know, so
[2:13:13] I think if you think
[2:13:17] that we're not listening or,
[2:13:19] or we're antagonistic, you know, there's things that,
[2:13:22] you know, that we're unaware of, you know,
[2:13:26] and it, once we found out
[2:13:29] that the lights were on all the time
[2:13:31] or at the lights on the building were pointed up in the,
[2:13:35] the sky like an aircraft lights, you know,
[2:13:40] we could understand something the, the issues
[2:13:44] that you were having with the lights.
[2:13:45] Yes. My point is clear definition
[2:13:49] of exactly what's being approved so that Yeah.
[2:13:51] So that code enforcement can enforce it. Yeah.
[2:13:55] And we can, we can work with code enforcement if need be.
[2:14:00] Yeah. Well I I believe that's, you know, this part
[2:14:04] of the solution of this problem is that, you know,
[2:14:08] when we first heard this case back in November, you know,
[2:14:12] that information might have been presented.
[2:14:14] I, I don't remember the details of
[2:14:17] what the lumens were gonna be
[2:14:20] or, you know, I do remember that when we approved the plan
[2:14:25] that, or the variance that we asked specifically,
[2:14:30] you know, when the lights were gonna be on
[2:14:38] and, and some other details, you know, that,
[2:14:43] like I said, I don't go out there to, to verify
[2:14:46] that stuff, you know?
[2:14:49] I get it. Yep.
[2:14:50] And if, if you would've,
[2:14:56] you know, let the code enforcement officer,
[2:14:59] we did know a little bit sooner then.
[2:15:06] So if you'd like to revisit that there,
[2:15:10] there's testimony of people going to code enforcement
[2:15:14] and code enforcement sending letters, sending emails,
[2:15:18] stopping by, knocking at the door.
[2:15:20] And Mr.
[2:15:23] Yco saying, I never received a letter,
[2:15:25] nobody knocked on my door.
[2:15:26] Nobody called, I never received an email.
[2:15:28] So there's a, he said, she said
[2:15:31] situation there all on its own.
[2:15:33] That kind of materialized
[2:15:36] during the LA two meetings ago, I believe.
[2:15:39] And I didn't want to visit that.
[2:15:43] But since you bring it up,
[2:15:45] that's my fear is non-compliance.
[2:15:48] How do we fix something that we don't even, first
[2:15:52] of all know what it is?
[2:15:54] And then second of all, code enfor,
[2:15:56] code enforcements not there at night.
[2:15:58] They don't have the, they don't have the
[2:16:00] light meter to check it.
[2:16:02] The town doesn't own something to check this.
[2:16:04] So how do you, how do you enforce it?
[2:16:06] So all, all I'm looking for is how do you do those things
[2:16:12] in order to keep the neighbors happy
[2:16:16] and the business happy with how they can run their business.
[2:16:19] I guess my thoughts are as kind of a smaller m smaller sign
[2:16:23] and some something less bright
[2:16:25] and lit than what's there today.
[2:16:27] That's how I see it. Yeah,
[2:16:29] You're legitimately concerned about the compliance issue.
[2:16:32] I think the testimony that was given in early April, I think
[2:16:37] bothered the board to hear that that was occurring
[2:16:41] stipulations with, in, you know,
[2:16:43] the prior case relative to this parcel.
[2:16:47] A lot of focus was on the electronic messaging sign portion
[2:16:51] of this, which I think is where
[2:16:53] the board's eyes has have opened up relative to three pages
[2:16:58] of sign ordinances
[2:16:59] and kind of getting a better comprehension
[2:17:02] of the whole ordinance stipulations regarding signs
[2:17:07] and where they're going to go
[2:17:08] or what they, what's appropriate.
[2:17:11] And I think that's, that this case has been one of those
[2:17:14] that has been more reflective in that regard.
[2:17:18] The hours of operation
[2:17:20] for the electronic messaging sign were stipulated
[2:17:23] and I think, and were, were a lot
[2:17:26] of discussions about 'em almost a year ago
[2:17:28] when it was brought forward.
[2:17:30] And that's why the disappointment of the board has been,
[2:17:35] been made and not, you know, within itself and,
[2:17:39] and understandably bothersome to every member of the board.
[2:17:43] So I appreciate that The, you know,
[2:17:46] I think there's appropriate fines in this regard.
[2:17:49] I think that as we,
[2:17:52] as staff has started to get a better feel of the, the road
[2:17:56] that they deal with, there are fines that are associated
[2:18:00] with non-compliance and I think we're better suited now.
[2:18:06] I think Mrs. Owen has indicated that we are more equipped
[2:18:10] to be able to measure the things
[2:18:12] that you're bringing forward
[2:18:13] and to monitor it better down the road.
[2:18:16] So to that regard, there's a lot of transitions going on
[2:18:20] and none of them are conspiratorial.
[2:18:23] Thank you. Alright, any questions?
[2:18:26] Just one thing, not a question,
[2:18:27] but just for clarity's sake.
[2:18:30] I don't want, I, I write a lot when you guys are up talking,
[2:18:33] mostly all of the abutters.
[2:18:34] I don't want it to come across that I'm doodling
[2:18:36] and I hope that's not the case.
[2:18:37] Just a peek behind the curtain.
[2:18:38] And not that you guys need to see all the sausages made.
[2:18:41] A lot of what I do is just, I'm documenting
[2:18:42] what's being said, what we're seeing.
[2:18:44] And then a lot of it is I try to write down all
[2:18:47] of your testimony really as much as I can to go through
[2:18:49] to make sure that we try to, you know,
[2:18:51] it's about four years cases to make sure we go through
[2:18:52] and try to hit each of the topics.
[2:18:54] A lot of the time I'll highlight
[2:18:56] or underline a few things I might be thinking of
[2:18:58] that you touch upon, but it's usually to reiterate a point
[2:19:00] and just so you, not necessarily
[2:19:02] with the camera, but so you guys see it.
[2:19:04] Also, when I'm on my phone, I'm usually pulling up Google
[2:19:06] Earth and this one was to see a view from,
[2:19:08] honestly just from your property so I can get more of a feel
[2:19:10] as you're talking to see what you're going with.
[2:19:12] Appreciate. So it's just for the general audience
[2:19:13] that if you do see that, I don't want it
[2:19:15] to come across as disrespectful.
[2:19:17] It's truly me trying to think that I'm trying
[2:19:18] to get myself in your shoes and really look at it
[2:19:20] from that point of view as well.
[2:19:21] So, apologize for any, just how that comes across.
[2:19:24] I didn't really think of it that way, Mr.
[2:19:26] Chair. Mr. Dietza,
[2:19:28] Since my name was invoked in that conversation,
[2:19:30] I'd like to respond as well.
[2:19:32] I take notes. I try to get it as carefully, closely to
[2:19:36] what you're saying is I can, so
[2:19:38] that I can respond appropriately.
[2:19:40] I bring up on my iPad the five criteria so I can judge
[2:19:44] what you're saying against the five criteria.
[2:19:47] I also use Google Maps like Mr. Corbit.
[2:19:50] We're not being an an attentive
[2:19:53] or disrespectful to your testimony.
[2:19:56] I am listening with open ears at all times.
[2:20:00] So if you have that misperception,
[2:20:01] I'd like to clear that up.
[2:20:03] Thank you, Mr. Chair.
[2:20:04] You're welcome. Mr. Donlin, anything You all set?
[2:20:09] I'm all set. Mr. Chair.
[2:20:10] Okay. And Mr. Mor is Mr. Henry. Any questions? Mr.
[2:20:15] O Bimba or Mr. Dani? You all set? I'm all set chair.
[2:20:19] Okay, good enough. Can
[2:20:20] I ask one last question?
[2:20:21] Sure. Are any of you baseball coaches for youth or,
[2:20:26] or any of the surrounding community for baseball?
[2:20:31] Yes, I'm part of the Rec Dairy Rec Dairy
[2:20:33] Diamond. I coach for the
[2:20:34] Aaa.
[2:20:35] And do you send kids, do you send kids to this camp? No,
[2:20:38] Not to the camp. Do
[2:20:39] You refer parents to his, to this camp
[2:20:42] or to NEA at all?
[2:20:44] No, I've mentioned NEA 'cause I know kids who play in it.
[2:20:47] I've mentioned that kids play for NEA,
[2:20:49] like when we compete against them,
[2:20:50] there are some pitchers in the majors level that we see,
[2:20:53] but I don't do any business with them. Okay.
[2:20:55] I'm also a baseball coach in town
[2:20:57] and I didn't know this business existed
[2:21:00] until this came before us.
[2:21:01] Okay, thank you. Is
[2:21:03] that this current case or the former one?
[2:21:05] Mr. Donley?
[2:21:07] I wasn't present for the former one.
[2:21:08] Oh, got it. Okay. Alright. All set?
[2:21:12] Yep. Thank you. Very
[2:21:13] Good.
[2:21:14] Alright, I think Mrs.
[2:21:17] Ro, I'll ask your husband
[2:21:21] to stay back
[2:21:32] just for protocol.
[2:21:34] You know we're in rebuttal for butters,
[2:21:37] so this is that protocol.
[2:21:38] Okay. Okay.
[2:21:39] Alright. Alright. My name's Jessica Cloutier.
[2:21:44] I live at 1 6 4 Hampstead Road.
[2:21:47] Tonight I prepared a speech again.
[2:21:52] So at the April zoning board meeting,
[2:21:54] I explained why I believe Bird Enterprises did not meet any
[2:21:57] of the five conditions required for a variance.
[2:22:00] Tonight I am only going to focus on one issue as I don't,
[2:22:04] so I don't take up too much of your time.
[2:22:06] And that issue would be hardship.
[2:22:08] After sitting through these meetings, it seems
[2:22:11] that applicant's main argument is
[2:22:12] that they need this large backlit pylon sign
[2:22:16] so people can find the business.
[2:22:18] I would have to disagree that this type
[2:22:20] of sign is necessary.
[2:22:22] As I mentioned at the April meeting, I visited several
[2:22:27] similar landscaping and nursery businesses around town
[2:22:30] and took photos of those signs.
[2:22:33] Not one of them has this type
[2:22:35] of oversized back lit bylaw sign being requested here.
[2:22:39] One example is Spring Look Farm on Island Pond Road here in
[2:22:43] Derry, they have been in business for decades,
[2:22:46] despite being approximately 860 feet from the road
[2:22:50] and only partially visible for from passing traffic.
[2:22:54] They have managed to operate successfully all these years
[2:22:56] without a large industrial sign.
[2:22:58] Meanwhile, bird Enterprises is located on a much busier
[2:23:02] roadway and only 300 feet from the road
[2:23:05] with a large open lot that includes over 400 feet
[2:23:09] of unobstructed road frontage
[2:23:11] where the business is clearly visible to passing traffic.
[2:23:16] If all these types of businesses in town have this wooden
[2:23:18] type sign that is externally lit that fit the character
[2:23:23] of this town, why does this location need such an oversized
[2:23:27] 16 foot tall industrial type sign to draw people in?
[2:23:31] The sign is inconsistent with the residential character
[2:23:34] the ordinance is designed to protect.
[2:23:37] To me, this shows that there is no true hardship inherited
[2:23:41] to the property itself.
[2:23:43] The issue is not visibility, it is simply a preference
[2:23:47] for a larger and more commercial style sign.
[2:23:51] A hardship must come from the land itself, not from a desire
[2:23:54] for a more prominent advertising.
[2:23:58] I'll just briefly go over the five conditions
[2:24:00] and how he meets none of them.
[2:24:04] And I'm gonna read from your application
[2:24:08] for a variance to be granted, you must show that your
[2:24:12] proposal meets all five of the conditions outlined below.
[2:24:16] Condition one. There shall be no decrease in value
[2:24:19] of surrounding properties
[2:24:22] and property values would decline if
[2:24:26] that sign remains there
[2:24:28] because, sorry.
[2:24:34] 'cause property values decline when a quiet residential area
[2:24:37] becomes to look and feel more commercial condition.
[2:24:41] Two, granting the variance would be
[2:24:43] in the public's interest.
[2:24:46] I would have to disagree
[2:24:47] because when referring to the public best interest,
[2:24:50] that also include all abutters
[2:24:52] and everyone else in the surrounding neighborhoods.
[2:24:55] And we get no benefit from a private business
[2:24:57] installing a commercial sign.
[2:24:59] This type of sign brings light pollution, traffic,
[2:25:02] distractions, and disruption to a residential area.
[2:25:05] Public interest lies in preserving neighborhood character,
[2:25:10] not promoting commercial activity
[2:25:12] and zones not meant for it.
[2:25:15] Condition three, A hardship must exist,
[2:25:18] which is inherent in the land in question.
[2:25:20] And I've already gone over that condition. Four.
[2:25:24] By granting the variance substantial justice will be done,
[2:25:30] the gain to the business in this situation is far
[2:25:35] outweighed by the harm to the residents
[2:25:38] by the property value decreasing piece
[2:25:41] and light
[2:25:42] pollution in condition five.
[2:25:46] The use must not be contrary to the spirit
[2:25:49] and intent of the ordinance.
[2:25:51] The spirit of the ordinance is
[2:25:52] to separate residential and commercial use.
[2:25:55] The ordinance is designed to promote the health, safety,
[2:25:59] and welfare of residents.
[2:26:00] Granting this variance would undermine the entire purpose
[2:26:04] of residential zoning.
[2:26:08] For these reasons, I respectfully urge the board
[2:26:11] to deny the 16 foot tall pylon sign in this residential
[2:26:15] district and urge the a applicant to rethink the type
[2:26:18] of sign for the location and go, sorry,
[2:26:22] and go for one that is better suited for this area.
[2:26:28] That is all.
[2:26:30] So when you, you know,
[2:26:33] you've heard the Davidsons come
[2:26:37] and their points of view
[2:26:39] and the exchange with that,
[2:26:45] what is acceptable to you in this regard?
[2:26:49] Well, of course I don't have the pictures with me tonight,
[2:26:52] but when I went around town looking at other businesses
[2:26:57] of this type, I came to find that this town,
[2:27:03] but fits the character is more of like,
[2:27:06] of a wooden sign kind of, and it's externally lit.
[2:27:10] Like I have small pictures with me. Sorry. That's fine.
[2:27:15] I feel like that is much more suited for our area
[2:27:18] and fits the character.
[2:27:22] The signs that Andrew Rose brought forward
[2:27:28] have been verified,
[2:27:29] I think the spring look you've referred to.
[2:27:33] And those, the, some
[2:27:35] of these signs are larger than the permitted signs
[2:27:38] that are established in the ordinances,
[2:27:42] but those were used as references as to
[2:27:45] what would be acceptable.
[2:27:47] But that's the size.
[2:27:49] And you're describing different,
[2:27:53] a different design, so to speak.
[2:27:55] A wooden sign, I think Meadowbrook,
[2:27:58] the sign down at Meadowbrook, not the horse farm,
[2:28:00] but the other one is externally lit.
[2:28:03] That's a wooden sign.
[2:28:05] It's rotted and,
[2:28:07] but it is in the, in the 24 square foot size.
[2:28:13] Many of the other signs that have been spoken of are,
[2:28:17] are different variations.
[2:28:19] You have a sign that is six tenths
[2:28:23] of a mile away from this location and that sign is backlit
[2:28:28] and it is I think 40 square feet in
[2:28:31] size that I know of.
[2:28:34] There was no permit issued for that, that sign at the time.
[2:28:38] But I think you are starting to understand
[2:28:42] in some perspective that the signs that have been presented
[2:28:47] as a rational existence aren't quite
[2:28:52] matching all the ordinances as they're depicted either.
[2:28:58] So in that
[2:28:59] and in that regard, also understanding what I've portrayed
[2:29:03] to the other speaker, Mr.
[2:29:06] Cardin, I would ask, whereas you are not a direct abutter,
[2:29:11] how would you be agreed by this if the board
[2:29:15] ruled favorably for the applicant?
[2:29:19] Well, I do live pretty close to it,
[2:29:23] but it would affect, it, it,
[2:29:26] it already affects the neighborhood to be honest though.
[2:29:29] In which way? It just,
[2:29:33] the noise, the atmosphere in general is louder.
[2:29:37] There's more traffic. There's, I feel like
[2:29:42] by adding a sign of this type, it's just
[2:29:45] would change the character even more.
[2:29:49] Like right now it feels like a residential neighborhood,
[2:29:51] but once you come across that sign, it's almost like you're,
[2:29:56] you would think you're almost coming into an area
[2:29:58] where it's more commercial.
[2:30:01] Okay. It, it changes the vibe of the neighborhood.
[2:30:04] I'm sorry, I don't know really how to
[2:30:06] That.
[2:30:07] So, you know, I think we've talked about that this is not
[2:30:09] a quaint neighborhood.
[2:30:11] It's a major th throughway right? Or passageway.
[2:30:16] I think you've stated the five criteria
[2:30:18] and how this doesn't comply,
[2:30:21] but your, your position on this,
[2:30:24] how you would be aggrieved is based on the fact
[2:30:27] that it's agitated neighbors that doesn't fit
[2:30:31] the five criteria either.
[2:30:33] Well, it changes the character of the neighborhood.
[2:30:35] That's, I'm not saying it agitates us. Okay. It's, it's,
[2:30:40] It's, it's not responsible
[2:30:41] for an increase in traffic either.
[2:30:43] Right. We know that that's a busy road.
[2:30:45] And Olson road intersection has been a,
[2:30:49] a hazardous location as well,
[2:30:51] Correct?
[2:30:52] Well, his work trucks have definitely brought more
[2:30:55] traffic to the intersection.
[2:30:57] I, I see. Okay. So I'm sorry Mr.
[2:31:00] Corbet, I, I said to myself the nursery. Okay, sorry.
[2:31:02] Alright, got it. Anybody have any questions? Mr
[2:31:07] Trip?
[2:31:08] I, I guess I have a question.
[2:31:13] Do you believe that he should be able
[2:31:15] to operate in his business there?
[2:31:19] Does that really matter In this case?
[2:31:20] We're talking about the sign.
[2:31:22] Say again? Does that really matter?
[2:31:24] In this case, we're talking about the sign.
[2:31:28] Well, I believe that
[2:31:34] a business owner has a right to advertise
[2:31:39] his location and his products. Yes. So if, if,
[2:31:44] I'm not saying that he shouldn't have any sign,
[2:31:46] I'm just saying the type of sign he has is not suited
[2:31:49] for this area.
[2:31:50] Okay. But can we go back to my question?
[2:31:53] Do you think he should be allowed
[2:31:55] to operate a business there?
[2:31:58] It's a location he chose to be
[2:31:59] and the planning board allowed it. So,
[2:32:02] Say again?
[2:32:04] I didn't hear you.
[2:32:06] I said the planning board allowed it
[2:32:10] and he chose to be there.
[2:32:12] Well actually the planning board permitted
[2:32:17] acknowledged that a nursing
[2:32:22] is permitted by RSA, I don't remember what the number is.
[2:32:26] Statute. Statute.
[2:32:28] And the ordinances permitted
[2:32:32] the operation of the school.
[2:32:34] So it's not, it's not the planning board that
[2:32:38] permitted those uses.
[2:32:41] It was
[2:32:42] By Right by right.
[2:32:44] Yes. So, okay.
[2:32:46] That's, so you think that he should have a right
[2:32:50] to operate those businesses there?
[2:32:55] I don't think they fit under the categories
[2:32:56] that were listed, but
[2:32:58] that's just my opinion. It's not a school.
[2:33:02] Say Again? It's not a school.
[2:33:06] The town believes it's a school.
[2:33:08] Hmm. No, because,
[2:33:12] And I would have to Disagree.
[2:33:13] The thing with that I'm trying to get to is that
[2:33:18] he is permitted to operate two businesses there.
[2:33:23] One being the nursery and the other being the school.
[2:33:28] You know, I, I believe he also should be permitted
[2:33:32] to advertise his location and the products being offered.
[2:33:37] You know, so,
[2:33:41] but it, like I said, it goes back to Do you think
[2:33:45] that he should be permitted to operate a business there?
[2:33:49] I don't think it belongs in the neighborhood, no.
[2:33:52] Okay. Thank you Mr. Dietzel. Any questions?
[2:33:57] No, thank you Mr. Chair. Mr. Donlin?
[2:34:00] No, thank you. Mr. Chair. You also Mr. Corbert? Yes.
[2:34:04] I think Mr. Cloutier, sorry Ms.
[2:34:06] Cloutier did a good job re reiterating on the signs
[2:34:11] and the signs that'll fit in the
[2:34:12] area. I thank you for the testimony.
[2:34:14] Thank you. I also have another statement that I would like
[2:34:18] to read if possible.
[2:34:19] Okay. Is it poignant to this? Yes. Okay.
[2:34:23] Alright. Members of the board, I would like
[2:34:26] to briefly address something
[2:34:27] that was discussed at our previous meeting.
[2:34:29] That the variance request should be viewed as a use variance
[2:34:33] and not an area variance.
[2:34:35] My understanding that an area variance generally concerns
[2:34:38] dimensional requirements such as size, height,
[2:34:42] lighting, and replacement.
[2:34:43] While a use variance concerns a use
[2:34:46] of elsewise not permitted in this district, in either case,
[2:34:50] however, the statutory variance
[2:34:53] criteria still includes unnecessary hardship.
[2:34:56] I recognize that the current application is different from
[2:34:59] the prior one in
[2:35:00] that the electronic message center has been removed
[2:35:04] and the overall sign has been reduced.
[2:35:06] However, the application still seeks relief from the
[2:35:10] ordinance to obtain a non-conforming freestanding
[2:35:14] illuminated sign
[2:35:15] that would elsewise not be permitted at this location.
[2:35:19] In addition, there was some discussion at the prior meeting
[2:35:23] regarding whether the planning board may have created an ex
[2:35:28] expectation that additional signage would be permitted.
[2:35:31] I would like to clarify that I have a packet available
[2:35:35] to distribute to the board,
[2:35:36] which includes the relevant site plan.
[2:35:39] That site plan outlines only the old church
[2:35:42] existing sign at the property
[2:35:43] and does not reflect any approval
[2:35:46] or entitlement for additional signage beyond
[2:35:50] what is currently permitted by ordinance.
[2:35:52] It is also important to note
[2:35:54] that Della hti has since been granted three building signs,
[2:35:57] totaling four point no, 43.1 square feet.
[2:36:02] And despite that approval,
[2:36:03] the applicant is still seeking additional signage relief
[2:36:06] beyond what has already been allowed.
[2:36:09] The signage, despite no, the signage depicted in the
[2:36:14] approval site plan shows the former church sign
[2:36:17] approximately 10 feet by one foot in size
[2:36:21] and two feet from the ground located approximately 42 feet
[2:36:24] from the road, which is 32 feet further back from the
[2:36:30] roadway than the pylon sign Del hti now has
[2:36:34] in the prior litigation, the Superior Court
[2:36:39] analyzed the hardship question as applied to this property.
[2:36:42] The court reviewed whether the characteristics
[2:36:44] of the land justified relief from the ordinance
[2:36:48] and concluded that the hardship required, sorry,
[2:36:53] and the, and concluded
[2:36:54] that the hardship requirement had not been met
[2:36:57] because the present requests still seeks variance relief
[2:37:01] for a non-conforming sign at the same property.
[2:37:05] It would seem that the court's prior hardship
[2:37:08] analysis remains relevant to the board's con consideration,
[2:37:12] even though the applicant has been modified
[2:37:15] and is now being characterized differently.
[2:37:19] Yeah. It's not your statement is it? No, it's not. No. No.
[2:37:23] And all those points that you've just brought up have
[2:37:25] already been discussed by the board
[2:37:27] and reviewed by the board.
[2:37:29] Did you print, did somebody, somebody must
[2:37:32] provided that for you?
[2:37:33] Yes. Yeah. Okay.
[2:37:37] I do have the, the documents
[2:37:41] that was brought up in that though.
[2:37:44] Go ahead and accept it.
[2:37:46] I, I think we have it, but
[2:37:50] everybody on the board, Mr.
[2:37:51] Dietzel, you have the site plan?
[2:37:53] I have the site plan, Yeah, we do have,
[2:37:55] we have the existing one,
[2:37:56] but we can accept this one as well. Just to confirm,
[2:37:58] Make a motion.
[2:38:00] Make a motion to accept.
[2:38:01] Second please. Second, Mr.
[2:38:03] Golan, thank you for the record.
[2:38:05] Board accepts mills of a duplicate site plan.
[2:38:11] Okay. Anything else Ms. Clu? No, that
[2:38:14] Is all.
[2:38:15] Thank you. You're all set? Yep. Okay, thank you.
[2:38:21] Anybody else? Thank you. Rebuttal.
[2:38:24] This was second or rebuttal for Abutters
[2:38:28] or I think we heard everybody that had indicated they wanted
[2:38:32] to speak at the last meeting.
[2:38:34] I think counsel had somebody you were
[2:38:36] gesturing you wanted to speak.
[2:38:38] But before is, is he a direct abutter? No.
[2:38:42] What's the element of his your by his, the, the basis
[2:38:46] of his testimony is. Okay.
[2:38:51] Mr. Chair, prior to this, Mike, can I call Mr.
[2:38:53] Davison back up? I would just like to clarify.
[2:39:05] Could you Go back? Sorry.
[2:39:07] Do you have to say his name again or are we good?
[2:39:09] No, I think you called him up.
[2:39:11] You made his name know. Could you
[2:39:12] Go back to, you asked the question
[2:39:13] before you were asking about the coaches,
[2:39:14] you were asking about business interests.
[2:39:16] So I just wanna clarify, are you asking if I have any type
[2:39:19] of business interest or partnership
[2:39:21] or have I used the facility?
[2:39:23] Use the facility? Yes.
[2:39:24] I have taken this onto to the facility in December.
[2:39:27] I paid for an hour to use the batting cage with them.
[2:39:30] And then Gary Diamond, I believe rented it
[2:39:33] to do a middle school bootcamp
[2:39:36] and they asked, the league asked me
[2:39:38] to help out on the second
[2:39:38] night 'cause they didn't have enough coaches.
[2:39:41] But there was nothing that exchanged anything with me
[2:39:43] or that I dealt with anyone within NEA other
[2:39:45] than checking in with my son.
[2:39:47] But I just wanted to clarify that so that it didn't,
[2:39:50] I didn't misrepresent anything.
[2:39:52] So if you have any follow up questions, I'm happy to answer,
[2:39:54] but just wanted to make sure
[2:39:56] that I understood the question before.
[2:39:58] Would that being said,
[2:40:04] does that feel to anybody that there's,
[2:40:07] that maybe Mr.
[2:40:09] Corbet should recuse himself from this?
[2:40:14] I don't see a pecuniary interest. Mr.
[2:40:17] Corbett could define it more to the board.
[2:40:19] The board can vote on it.
[2:40:21] I can tell you I haven't used the facility,
[2:40:23] but I've heard the facility advertised on the radio.
[2:40:27] So I know it's purpose.
[2:40:28] I know what it's doing for the, the town or, or people.
[2:40:32] I haven't talked to anybody relative to this.
[2:40:36] So I I'm not seeing a conflict in it.
[2:40:41] He's not a regular participant there from what I can hear.
[2:40:45] And he's certainly not getting any free services there. No,
[2:40:49] I did not.
[2:40:51] I can Add, and if I,
[2:40:52] before Ms. Martin speaks, if I may, my,
[2:40:55] my take on it would be similar to when Sam
[2:40:58] and Lena Patel were at the same property.
[2:41:01] And I typically eat at East Area Cavern often
[2:41:03] as a resident in town and I still voted against them.
[2:41:05] So I don't think that utilizing a use in town
[2:41:09] as a resident necessarily makes you biased.
[2:41:12] But I am happy to hear from the
[2:41:13] board and defer to the board. Okay.
[2:41:15] I wanna say on, I'm a youth coach but not for baseball.
[2:41:20] And there's many times that my kids have gone places
[2:41:23] and to make him tell his kid no would
[2:41:26] not be fair whatsoever.
[2:41:28] You know, if all his buddies are going, they shouldn't have
[2:41:32] to reap anything here.
[2:41:34] 'cause like myself, I've been here since the nineties.
[2:41:36] If I had to sit back on every case
[2:41:38] that I might know somebody, I wouldn't be able to be here.
[2:41:42] Fair enough. I thought I had
[2:41:44] a fair question though too. No,
[2:41:45] Absolutely no.
[2:41:46] That's why his kids' not good at, that's why I wanted
[2:41:47] to call you back that he, there was a reason we were in
[2:41:49] there, but that's why I wanted to call
[2:41:51] back up and make sure that I
[2:41:52] Reiterated that.
[2:41:53] Thanks for clarifying.
[2:41:55] May I ask you a question, Mr. Trip? I thank you.
[2:41:58] I I, in your original testimony, you, you made
[2:42:03] a comment about the sign.
[2:42:05] You said it was oversized, it was
[2:42:08] backlit verification methods, brightness,
[2:42:12] when Mrs.
[2:42:15] Moji, I think that's the name, name, Cloutier
[2:42:17] What?
[2:42:18] Ms. Guttier. Ms. Cloutier.
[2:42:20] Cloutier. Alright. Sorry.
[2:42:22] She, she made some comments that
[2:42:26] made me wanna ask you a question.
[2:42:28] Sure. Alright. You had,
[2:42:32] in your original testimony you said
[2:42:34] that it was an oversized sign, right?
[2:42:38] Do you, do you believe that's an oversized sign?
[2:42:42] I believe it does not fit the character
[2:42:44] of the neighborhood and is oversized for our neighborhood.
[2:42:47] Yes.
[2:42:48] In what manner is it oversized
[2:42:51] In the manner that it's larger than
[2:42:53] what this board would permit on a normal basis?
[2:42:59] Height and girth, as I recall,
[2:43:02] Height girth is, yeah, it's a large, large sign.
[2:43:07] Right? 16 foot tall.
[2:43:09] Okay. Okay. And do you,
[2:43:12] Do you Consider 50 square feet,
[2:43:14] 65 square feet at one point?
[2:43:16] It's a large sign about the same size
[2:43:20] of that screen right there.
[2:43:24] Say again? It's close to the size
[2:43:26] of that screen right there.
[2:43:30] If you turn it on, its this, if you turned it,
[2:43:33] that's probably, maybe even smaller than
[2:43:36] what the sign actually is.
[2:43:40] So it's a large sign. And then on a large pole,
[2:43:44] The, the current sign, each of those cabinets,
[2:43:48] those two cabinets, they're both 25 square feet,
[2:43:52] I think measures out to, if you go the full five foot high,
[2:43:58] 60 inches high, the width of that cabinet is two
[2:44:02] and a half inches wider for each lint each foot up.
[2:44:07] I can't really say if it's the size of that sign that screen
[2:44:11] behind me or not, but wide
[2:44:12] Then I'd need a tape measure to be okay.
[2:44:15] As accurate. But it feels like
[2:44:19] a large sign, right?
[2:44:20] Yeah, I think I, I get your point.
[2:44:22] I have a follow up Mr. Trip.
[2:44:24] I you, you know, there's two businesses there.
[2:44:29] I know there's two businesses there.
[2:44:31] I opposed both businesses,
[2:44:33] but I had no way to oppose both businesses.
[2:44:36] Okay. So I oppose the businesses period.
[2:44:38] Okay. I, I believe that the owner
[2:44:43] is allowed to have a sign for each business.
[2:44:47] So if he had five businesses there,
[2:44:49] he could have five signs.
[2:44:52] If he had 10 businesses there, he could have 10 signs
[2:44:57] or a hundred signs if he had a hundred businesses there.
[2:44:59] I guess where does that stop?
[2:45:01] Yeah, I like, I like the idea of a hundred businesses.
[2:45:04] Well, I think I'm done. I'm, this is full crying loud.
[2:45:08] You're being silly so I can be silly.
[2:45:10] No, I'm not being silly. Alright,
[2:45:11] Let's, let's clarify for the record.
[2:45:14] All right, Mr. Trip, are you all set for right now? I
[2:45:16] Am set.
[2:45:17] And I think to the, the point, Mr. This
[2:45:20] Is how, why people get incited
[2:45:22] 'cause crazy questions come up and it's, it's frustrating.
[2:45:26] Well, I'm trying to get back to
[2:45:27] Understood. I'm just telling you my point.
[2:45:29] Your you're right there asking and,
[2:45:30] and kind of clarify for Mr.
[2:45:32] Tripp. I think he's passionate about having more commercial
[2:45:36] development in town, not necessarily where it doesn't,
[2:45:40] where it doesn't fit.
[2:45:41] Well, I think we can agree that because of statute
[2:45:46] and ordinance, the, this is an,
[2:45:48] this certainly was an odd fit that someone would come
[2:45:51] and open up a, a baseball school
[2:45:53] and a nursery all in the same location.
[2:45:56] But it's the perfect storm for, for
[2:45:59] what has has occurred here.
[2:46:01] And I think that there's, I said it at the last meeting,
[2:46:05] there's this perception
[2:46:06] that there was already a decision made.
[2:46:08] We hear that in the tone and the comments that are made.
[2:46:11] Not only that, but you know, a statement that says
[2:46:14] that there's a conspiracy.
[2:46:17] And we heard that last year too.
[2:46:20] I think to your question, if it was a hundred businesses,
[2:46:23] what would be, what would be appropriate?
[2:46:27] Would it be a hundred signs? Well, possibly.
[2:46:30] So, however, the, the design of something of
[2:46:35] that matter would not be in this location.
[2:46:38] The odds of two businesses fitting in this one location
[2:46:42] that would be approved one by statute
[2:46:44] that the town has no say over is unusual
[2:46:48] a hundred businesses in
[2:46:49] that one location would not be permitted at all
[2:46:53] because there's not that many businesses that would be by.
[2:46:56] Right. And in that regard, there's other signed designs
[2:47:00] that this board might have purview over to correct that
[2:47:05] even if it were a hundred businesses in the
[2:47:07] one location. Okay.
[2:47:08] Maybe I was. So I think we've clarified all of that
[2:47:11] and, and I understand that Mr.
[2:47:14] Trip has some levity to, you know, his response
[2:47:17] and back and forth.
[2:47:19] I think I've clarified that aspect of it.
[2:47:22] The a hundred signs and
[2:47:23] that the board's discretion is still lingering
[2:47:26] as to where this goes.
[2:47:29] Yes, you have. Okay. Feels to me that Mr.
[2:47:32] Tripp has made a decision already though, just
[2:47:36] and back to your point where predetermined it feels that way
[2:47:40] because it feels like he's on, the questions
[2:47:43] that he's asking are on the side
[2:47:45] of the business being there.
[2:47:47] He wants more commercial, he wants signs. He's saying it.
[2:47:50] You're saying that that's what he's thinking. So I sound
[2:47:52] Predetermined, but I think the discretion is
[2:47:54] that we understand that the, the, the perfect storm
[2:47:58] of a hundred businesses
[2:47:59] or 50 businesses fitting in this location are, are very odd.
[2:48:02] Okay. So he's being a little facetious. I think
[2:48:06] Possibly, I'm just trying to clarify that these
[2:48:10] businesses are permitted.
[2:48:12] It's a permitted use.
[2:48:14] You, the businesses came in under, you know what,
[2:48:18] I don't want to go down this road.
[2:48:19] That, that's fine because it's, I'm gonna get
[2:48:20] ****** it. Alright.
[2:48:22] I remember your point. I, I'll
[2:48:24] They came in undercover.
[2:48:26] I'm not happy about it to begin with. They're there.
[2:48:29] Let's move on if I may, let's move on. I mean, Mr.
[2:48:31] Mr I don't know why I have to revisit this. Yeah,
[2:48:33] Sure.
[2:48:34] He made it very clear at the original meeting
[2:48:36] and we as the board made it very clear it was not within our
[2:48:38] purview to hear it.
[2:48:39] So I, to Mr. Davidson's point, I don't,
[2:48:41] we should not be going back and forth at that point
[2:48:43] Right now. I'm all set.
[2:48:44] Okay. Thank you. Alright.
[2:48:46] We had one Abutter who wanted to give his,
[2:48:49] he's not spoken before.
[2:48:51] I'm gonna give that latitude
[2:48:52] and then give the attorneys back up.
[2:48:53] We're going to, we're gonna take a motion on the 26 dash one
[2:48:58] 12 to po to table the next meeting.
[2:49:01] That motion. Very good. Second, seconded by Mr. Donlin.
[2:49:06] Mr. Molton, I do know you're in the room,
[2:49:08] but we're not going to get to you tonight.
[2:49:11] We'll reschedule you for the next meeting,
[2:49:14] which you will be.
[2:49:16] God help us so we can get through this.
[2:49:18] This case, you should be first on the agenda. Okay.
[2:49:22] All in favor of that, of tabling that case.
[2:49:25] 26 1 12 to the next meeting. Say aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed?
[2:49:30] Very good. Thank you Mr. Molton hearing from one, one last.
[2:49:34] Abutter.
[2:49:36] Is there two? Good evening.
[2:49:42] Good evening. Ben Mitchell, three Belmont Terrace.
[2:49:45] Are you a direct to abut Not a direct toBut?
[2:49:49] There's three. Three what?
[2:49:50] Three Belmont Terrace, thank you.
[2:49:52] About a third of mile down the road.
[2:49:55] Okay. I just wanted to state that
[2:49:59] I don't really understand the whole value,
[2:50:02] property value conversation.
[2:50:04] And part of this about the sign I drive by that
[2:50:09] sign probably multiple times a day,
[2:50:12] never had an issue with it.
[2:50:14] Certainly have not had as big of an issue with it as the
[2:50:18] look of the dilapidated church that was there
[2:50:21] for years prior.
[2:50:25] The, the look of dumpsters in the front yard of
[2:50:30] abutters to the property that we're talking about don't seem
[2:50:34] to be an issue to the property values of the abutters.
[2:50:36] But this beautiful new sign seems to,
[2:50:40] it doesn't make much sense to me.
[2:50:43] I agree with Mr. Tripp.
[2:50:44] I mean, as far as the commercial growth of the town,
[2:50:49] as a, as a taxpayer, I support that.
[2:50:52] And especially a business like this
[2:50:55] that serves the youth of the community.
[2:50:59] Okay. Very good.
[2:51:02] Thank you very much, counsel.
[2:51:06] You are welcome back up.
[2:51:08] We're gonna try and get you done. Yes.
[2:51:11] Okay. And we hope to be very brief, Mr. Chair.
[2:51:14] And thank you to the Honorable Board again
[2:51:16] for one last opportunity to speak for the record.
[2:51:20] My name is Chris Drescher.
[2:51:21] I'm an attorney with Kron Bis and Zelensky outta Manchester.
[2:51:23] And I am the counsel for the applicant,
[2:51:27] Byrd Enterprises, LLC.
[2:51:30] I just wanted to take this opportunity to make two very
[2:51:32] brief points At the last hearing.
[2:51:35] We had some discussion
[2:51:36] with Member Corbitt about a potentially
[2:51:40] shrinking, bringing the sign down.
[2:51:43] We looked into that. We are able to do that
[2:51:44] and are willing to do that, to lose four feet
[2:51:50] off the height of that sign.
[2:51:52] So if you were to approve this,
[2:51:54] we'd be perfectly fine having that as a, as a condition.
[2:51:58] And lastly, I just wanted to say,
[2:51:59] I'm just gonna say I'll defer to my testimony,
[2:52:02] to our pleadings, to everything we've already put in the
[2:52:04] record so we don't have to belabor the point
[2:52:06] much more into this evening.
[2:52:08] But one, one point I made back in April that seems
[2:52:11] to have been lost since then,
[2:52:12] at least from the testimony I've been listening to
[2:52:14] for the past two hearings, is the hardship criteria,
[2:52:16] specifically the special conditions that speak
[2:52:18] to the land itself.
[2:52:22] Now, when I read the Superior Court case,
[2:52:24] what Judge K class said is that the special condition
[2:52:29] that was presented to him was just
[2:52:30] that everything was pushed back
[2:52:32] and that didn't cut it for him.
[2:52:34] However, what I presented back in April when I came to you
[2:52:37] and what was never presented back in the original case,
[2:52:39] which I think absolutely does, is,
[2:52:42] and I'm gonna hold up a tax map here.
[2:52:44] You have a tax map. It's already in your application,
[2:52:46] so we don't need to go through the motions to submit it.
[2:52:48] I'm just gonna hold it up here. But this is
[2:52:50] the largest lot in the area.
[2:52:52] It's bigger than all the others.
[2:52:54] And that is why back in April I
[2:52:55] brought up the Harborside case.
[2:52:57] 'cause I, I think Mr. Jerry,
[2:52:58] I know you're familiar with that case.
[2:52:59] And in that case, the sort of nut nutshell I'm taking from
[2:53:03] that is that in that case, the, the Supreme Court said that
[2:53:08] hardship, at least with a respect to special condition,
[2:53:11] could be the size of the hotel that was in that case
[2:53:16] because they needed a bigger sign
[2:53:17] because they had a bigger hotel.
[2:53:19] And that was a special condition.
[2:53:21] And that was one of the bigger takeaways from that case.
[2:53:23] Not the only takeaway of course,
[2:53:24] but one of the major takeaways.
[2:53:26] And I think that is analogous to this situation here.
[2:53:29] We have the largest lot in the area
[2:53:30] and that you haven't allowed use.
[2:53:32] I also heard something about use variances versus
[2:53:34] dimensional variances.
[2:53:35] Not that that matters anymore,
[2:53:36] but if we were talking about dimensions,
[2:53:38] I just gave you the dimensions.
[2:53:39] If we're talking about use, the use is allowed.
[2:53:41] He's got a commercial use, he's entitled
[2:53:43] to a, a sign for his business.
[2:53:45] And that was really all I wanted
[2:53:47] to have my last word be applicant's here.
[2:53:51] If you got any more questions and oh,
[2:53:53] and we'll also reduce the light
[2:53:54] by 25% is what you're saying to me. Okay.
[2:53:57] So I found that out that you can LED lights, it was,
[2:54:00] the question was brought up last time.
[2:54:01] Are you able to turn down the brightness on those signs?
[2:54:04] I reached out to my sign company on three different fronts
[2:54:07] that were brought up last time.
[2:54:09] I heard this board loud and clear last time when we spoke
[2:54:11] about, you know, turning down the volume, trying
[2:54:14] to get this back under, under wraps.
[2:54:16] I believe that every time I've spoken to you, spoken
[2:54:20] to you over the course of, I think we're in five meetings.
[2:54:22] I've been respectful. I've come up, I've spoken in a manner
[2:54:25] that I haven't, I've tried to be professional and so forth.
[2:54:28] I will say tonight I'm very offended. I'm, I'm very upset.
[2:54:33] I've sat here and been dragged
[2:54:34] through the mud for five meetings.
[2:54:36] I've been told that I've lied.
[2:54:37] I've been told that I haven't done things.
[2:54:39] I've been told that I shouldn't be there.
[2:54:40] I've been told pretty much that they, that that my
[2:54:44] Existence, Not,
[2:54:45] Not by the Board, but not by the board.
[2:54:46] No, no, no. I'm sorry. Thank you.
[2:54:48] Very clear by the abutters.
[2:54:49] And, and there's been so many falsities made
[2:54:52] and so many inaccuracies made.
[2:54:55] I'm very, very upset at this point.
[2:54:56] I do not want to go through every inaccuracy with this board
[2:54:59] because this has been a painful process for myself and you
[2:55:04] and my business and my customers and everyone.
[2:55:07] But about three people that love this place.
[2:55:10] Love my sign, love what I've done. Love that.
[2:55:12] I've brought up two businesses to this town.
[2:55:15] Love that I'm working with the youth love that I have a,
[2:55:17] a garden center, but but three
[2:55:19] or four families that consistently drag me through the mud.
[2:55:23] I am not that person.
[2:55:24] I have brought, I have spent a ton of money here.
[2:55:27] I have never said once that my hardship is money.
[2:55:29] Not one time, but I've said I I've been told, I did.
[2:55:33] I've been told that I've ignored knocking on doors,
[2:55:36] I've ignored messages.
[2:55:37] I've ignored these things. That has not happened.
[2:55:40] I have not locked myself in a closet when someone's come
[2:55:43] to my door, you can ask Ms. Owen, I came to her on my own
[2:55:47] to tell her what I was doing with the sign to,
[2:55:50] to tell her what the process was.
[2:55:52] I said I would shut the lights off. I shut the lights off.
[2:55:54] I don't have to shut the lights off in the building.
[2:55:57] I can leave 'em on 24 hours a day if I would like to.
[2:55:59] But I shut 'em off. I also shut off the lights
[2:56:02] that have been in the air for 27 years
[2:56:04] that no one had a problem with.
[2:56:06] I'm sure it's not on the record for 27 years,
[2:56:08] no one said one word until I moved in.
[2:56:11] Now I put up the lights
[2:56:12] that have been referenced as an airport.
[2:56:14] I didn't put those lights up.
[2:56:16] They were preexisting that they had no issues with zero.
[2:56:19] They have a problem with me in that, that that the ordinance
[2:56:22] that they lived in, that they moved to before this,
[2:56:25] before this happened allows this use.
[2:56:28] That is not my fault. That is not your fault.
[2:56:34] It is allowed Simply it is allowed.
[2:56:38] I am not gonna go up and down Hampstead Road
[2:56:40] and call out every business that is out
[2:56:42] of compliance with their signs.
[2:56:43] But there's plenty, there's plenty. Mr.
[2:56:46] Tripp made a comment last time
[2:56:47] that he hadn't noticed any backlit signs in the area.
[2:56:50] There are, there's several.
[2:56:53] There's one at the other end of the road. Yes.
[2:56:55] It's out of town by 50 feet next to another abutter.
[2:56:58] That, that, that the, that that I believe Mr.
[2:57:01] Rosie brought up a sign off. Okay.
[2:57:04] You can see it from the Abutter. So yes.
[2:57:06] It might be another sign. Backlit sign.
[2:57:08] Electronic read aboard.
[2:57:09] Same road less than five minutes away.
[2:57:13] Calvary Christian Church has a backlit sign.
[2:57:17] Doesn't mean they turn it on. They have a backlit sign.
[2:57:21] Can flip it on tonight if they'd like with a reader board,
[2:57:23] not electronic with a reader board.
[2:57:26] Okay. Down the street as you go into the historic district,
[2:57:29] district, there is a reader board.
[2:57:31] There's a backlit sign on the church across the street also
[2:57:34] has, you know, a backlit sign.
[2:57:37] I'm not do, I'm not asking for anything that is out
[2:57:40] of character of the neighborhood.
[2:57:41] I've increased the value
[2:57:42] of the character of the neighborhood.
[2:57:44] There are dumpsters in the front
[2:57:45] yards of people's homes on that road.
[2:57:46] Commercial dumpsters.
[2:57:52] I'm sorry, Excuse me. Sorry to interrupt. Mr.
[2:57:54] Chair duty time. May I motion to extend?
[2:57:59] Oh, 15, 15 minutes please.
[2:58:01] Second please. I'll second. Thank you Ms. Moore. Sorry.
[2:58:04] Back. Say hi
[2:58:06] Chair.
[2:58:07] I may interrupt. I apologize.
[2:58:08] We have one case still pending.
[2:58:10] I don't know if you wanna table that as well.
[2:58:13] You had the molten case and there's
[2:58:15] There's another One after further
[2:58:16] case. Yes. I'm sorry. Yeah.
[2:58:17] 26 1 13. Thank you. You're welcome.
[2:58:21] Case 26. Shane. 26, 1 13 you said. Correct. Yep.
[2:58:26] Motion to table to the next meeting
[2:58:28] Please.
[2:58:29] I'll make a motion table case 26 dash
[2:58:30] one 13 to our next meeting.
[2:58:32] Second please. Second Mr. Trip. Second.
[2:58:34] All in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed?
[2:58:37] Sorry folks.
[2:58:40] And, and I think what I'll just say I'm off of that,
[2:58:44] you know, I think some of my clients'
[2:58:49] frustration probably also stems from the fact that,
[2:58:51] you know, we've come here, we've been making these
[2:58:53] concessions, will shrink the sign will make it lower,
[2:58:56] make it smaller, we'll make the lights go off, we'll make,
[2:58:58] make 'em less bright.
[2:59:00] And I, and I just hope
[2:59:02] that doesn't fall on deaf ears that we have done that.
[2:59:04] What is, I think we are looking at the lighting.
[2:59:09] That becomes a big issue, right?
[2:59:12] Yeah. A que So a question that I would have for you guys,
[2:59:16] would you consider breaking up the motion one for a sign
[2:59:20] and then one regarding the lights
[2:59:23] rather than just one motion altogether?
[2:59:27] Is that something that you'd be willing to, I'd have to
[2:59:28] Refer to you on that. I, I,
[2:59:30] So, so I guess could,
[2:59:32] could you make me understand a little more
[2:59:33] member, like, so two motions,
[2:59:34] What I would think is two motions, one that would allow,
[2:59:37] or one that would vote on the sign the size
[2:59:40] of the sign and the area.
[2:59:43] One that would allow for either the backlit
[2:59:46] or external lights or any type of lighting towards the sign
[2:59:50] rather than just one variance that ties everything together.
[2:59:54] So before you, before you get into that, I I i,
[2:59:58] I was on a little bit of a tangent and I apologize for that.
[3:00:00] I didn't do that. I think you can understand why.
[3:00:02] Hold on a second. This is not retaliatory.
[3:00:04] It's breaking down what you're hearing for testimony.
[3:00:07] Nope, I understand. And understanding your frustration
[3:00:10] and from Mr.
[3:00:11] Corbett's perspective, if you break the two apart,
[3:00:16] it doesn't necessarily, both could be challenged if
[3:00:20] that's the course of the abutters,
[3:00:22] but they could be challenged separately.
[3:00:24] They, they may accept some adjustments that you've made
[3:00:27] and challenge a separate part,
[3:00:30] Cor Correct.
[3:00:31] The, the one, the one concern I have,
[3:00:33] and this is something you brought up originally,
[3:00:36] and I think in context that you brought it up, Mr.
[3:00:39] Corbett was, I think you were looking for an example.
[3:00:42] And I have a better example after talking to that.
[3:00:44] So I've done my research
[3:00:46] after each one of these meetings, I spoke to my electrician,
[3:00:48] east Coast Electrical Corporation, big company,
[3:00:51] Massachusetts does a bunch of commercial work,
[3:00:53] does a bunch of residential work.
[3:00:54] They no longer in most towns are allowed to, to install
[3:01:00] external lighting on signs in areas.
[3:01:02] And the reason for it is, is lawn maintenance.
[3:01:05] Lawn maintenance goes around, they hit the signs
[3:01:07] and they turn the, they turn the floodlights into the road.
[3:01:13] They just won't, they're not even
[3:01:15] allowed in a lot of town now.
[3:01:16] So now I'm left with, with, you know, little
[3:01:19] or no lighting down.
[3:01:20] Lit signs have been down.
[3:01:22] Lit signs are, are, have been out in several towns
[3:01:24] for years too, because the same thing, the angle
[3:01:26] of the lights project into people's eyes.
[3:01:28] So backlit signs in, in,
[3:01:30] in East coast Electrical corporation, which has been around
[3:01:32] for many years doing a lot of this is the most, the,
[3:01:35] the best in and safest way to backlit signs.
[3:01:39] And that's why I said I called my sign company, I was able
[3:01:42] to, they said I can reduce the sign by 25% in height
[3:01:45] that brings it down four feet.
[3:01:47] I can reduce the illuminations by 25%.
[3:01:51] I took, the gentleman asked about the, the down lighting on,
[3:01:56] on the top, which is the LEDI removed that.
[3:02:01] I think the concessions I've brought here did exactly
[3:02:03] what this board asked of, of this case before.
[3:02:07] And that's to come to a resolution, try to have a,
[3:02:10] have some sort of a give and take turn down the temperature.
[3:02:13] To some extent, I believe I've done all of that.
[3:02:16] And yet I still am being, you know, berated is just simply,
[3:02:19] they don't want anything there.
[3:02:21] So whatever I come back with for a sign,
[3:02:22] I'm gonna be doing the same process.
[3:02:24] They might disagree, but that is the case.
[3:02:27] So I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm asking for,
[3:02:30] and we can certainly, clarity is one.
[3:02:34] I also have no problem if this board wishes again
[3:02:38] to turn down temperature.
[3:02:40] As of right now, I'm allowed
[3:02:41] to keep my building signs on all, all night.
[3:02:44] I still am allowed to have those, the flood lights go off.
[3:02:46] Although I said in the meeting, I can turn them off.
[3:02:48] I'll turn them off. They're, they're, they're there
[3:02:51] and allowed, I mean, they've been there for 27 years.
[3:02:53] They're part of the original approval.
[3:02:55] But I'm happy to make a concession to that as well
[3:02:59] upon pro upon approval.
[3:03:01] I would happy to have the, the lights on the building
[3:03:03] go off at a certain time.
[3:03:04] I'm happy to never turn the floodlights on.
[3:03:07] I'm happy to have my sign go off at the hours.
[3:03:10] We talked about last time off at nine o'clock on a dusk,
[3:03:13] I explained the method that on, on a,
[3:03:15] on a dusk explained the method that can happen last time.
[3:03:19] I can reduce it by 25% height.
[3:03:21] I can reduce the, the, the illumination by 25%.
[3:03:25] I will take the lights off of the top.
[3:03:28] I think I've made a lot of
[3:03:29] concessions to try to make this work.
[3:03:31] I I I don't, I'm not trying to Yep.
[3:03:33] Get you to break down and I don't think that's
[3:03:34] Yeah, no, I wasn't even getting to your point.
[3:03:36] I was just getting done what I needed to get done. Yeah.
[3:03:38] But I think, I think that you, you hear the testimony
[3:03:41] and we're trying to work through something that we can see
[3:03:45] perhaps a road ahead
[3:03:47] and given opportunity that addresses your concerns as well
[3:03:51] as the abutters and that people, you know,
[3:03:54] leave here in an uncontested.
[3:03:57] And I believe I'm doing that by offering this,
[3:03:59] have the signage on the buildings off at a time. Do that.
[3:04:01] Yep. But I have some questions that I want to ask. Sure.
[3:04:04] Relative to your concessions as well,
[3:04:07] because I wanna make sure that they make sense.
[3:04:09] And so what you're suggesting is
[3:04:11] that you would lower this from approximately 16 feet down
[3:04:14] to 12 feet at the top.
[3:04:16] Correct. But that brings your, the lowest sign.
[3:04:19] And, and by the way, the board still has
[3:04:21] to deliberate about these signs and their sizes
[3:04:25] and how they are structured.
[3:04:27] Right. And so there's a lot of,
[3:04:29] let's just say spit balling going on here to try
[3:04:32] and figure out what works
[3:04:35] and that there's no,
[3:04:39] no regrets later.
[3:04:41] Right. On all parties.
[3:04:42] And essentially you are dealing
[3:04:44] with three parties right now yourselves,
[3:04:47] the abutters in the town.
[3:04:49] And so in that regard, by drop dropping this down four feet,
[3:04:53] that lower cabinet ends up two feet off the ground.
[3:04:58] And is that where you want that cabinet to be?
[3:05:01] And so I'm, where I'm going with this is one
[3:05:04] of the abutters talked about a parallel,
[3:05:06] a horizontal alignment of the cabinets, which
[3:05:10] puts them at an equal height,
[3:05:13] may bring it down a little lower.
[3:05:15] But the question that we, that we come to also is
[3:05:18] that your lighting
[3:05:20] and your need for it going towards the hardship is more
[3:05:23] about the baseball camp.
[3:05:25] And, and that you have, you have a patrons
[3:05:29] that are more likely to be there in the evening
[3:05:31] and that's where that hardship starts to play in.
[3:05:34] Right. You need them to be able to see the location.
[3:05:38] And so in this regard, if you, if you had
[3:05:43] to do a trade off, right, and,
[3:05:46] and honestly, do you need the lights on at dusk
[3:05:48] because everybody's gonna see that sign?
[3:05:51] No. When they're going by in the daylight, right? No.
[3:05:55] Or at at dawn or whatever, right?
[3:05:57] I mean you at some point you're, you No,
[3:06:00] I never have it on in the morning. No.
[3:06:01] Okay. And so, so I get that right.
[3:06:04] And but I think before you follow this full concession
[3:06:08] and the board still needs to deliberate about this,
[3:06:11] I would think about that cabinet
[3:06:12] that's two feet off the ground.
[3:06:14] And if you can do the cabinet
[3:06:16] that's two feet off the ground, perhaps you need to
[3:06:19] put them both at that horizontal
[3:06:22] or bring them up four feet off the ground
[3:06:25] and make 'em horizontal.
[3:06:26] Well the, the, when the
[3:06:29] reader board was initially installed
[3:06:32] and was on the, the bottom of those cabinets,
[3:06:35] it was three by five.
[3:06:37] So it hung below those cabinets three feet. Yep.
[3:06:40] I'm suggesting we go down four feet. Yep.
[3:06:42] When it was down three feet, it was fine.
[3:06:44] It was three feet off the ground and it was no problem.
[3:06:48] So I'm, I'm okay with the two feet.
[3:06:51] I mean, would I prefer it to be a foot higher? Yes, I would.
[3:06:53] I think it'd be more proportional.
[3:06:54] I think it'll look right, but it,
[3:06:57] I've already got a reference point
[3:06:58] because that cabinet was there
[3:07:00] with the reader board that wasn't turned on.
[3:07:02] So I, I know where the bottom was,
[3:07:04] so I'm not, I'm not gonna be shocked by that.
[3:07:06] Put it that way. I'm not.
[3:07:08] So is it more advantageous for two signs to be side
[3:07:11] by side at a certain height off the ground?
[3:07:14] I, I, I don't think so.
[3:07:15] The whole reason why I, the sign was designed this way
[3:07:19] by the, by the sign company.
[3:07:20] We put a lot of thought in this
[3:07:21] because of how busy Hampstead Road is.
[3:07:23] Yep. In in top to bottom.
[3:07:25] People are coming down the road
[3:07:26] and you see the sign that way.
[3:07:27] Yeah. That, that was so, so to be quite honest,
[3:07:30] a sign going, you know, in the other direction is, is not
[3:07:35] not ideal by any means.
[3:07:36] You feel it would have to catch the attention
[3:07:38] A different way.
[3:07:39] Exactly. It's, it's sort of when it's when you have it,
[3:07:43] you know, situated on the road this way the dr it's easier
[3:07:46] for the driver to see where you turn it to, to the road.
[3:07:48] It's more, you know, really
[3:07:49] Just, just as one last point about
[3:07:51] that it's been brought up in
[3:07:52] and it's, it's kind
[3:07:53] of been just labeled at this point, I guess in this room.
[3:07:56] I'm not saying by the board,
[3:07:57] but it's actually been, been communicated back to,
[3:08:01] in questions to the, to the, the abutters.
[3:08:04] The oversized sign. The oversized sign.
[3:08:06] I'm here for variance.
[3:08:10] That's, that's to the eyes of the beholder.
[3:08:11] What the oversight sign is. Mr. Ro came up here.
[3:08:14] I wish he, I, you know, this is the problem
[3:08:16] with the extension of the meetings.
[3:08:18] I'm supposed to be now speaking to images, I don't have,
[3:08:24] I can only guess what those pictures were.
[3:08:26] 'cause he doesn't have here. Yeah,
[3:08:28] I think they're the same photos
[3:08:29] that he brought in the prior to
[3:08:31] There.
[3:08:32] I just have to remember Right. I can't see everyone.
[3:08:33] What I do know on those, those photos
[3:08:35] that every business on there closed at, closed before dark
[3:08:39] and everyone was a nursery garden center.
[3:08:41] So we're not comparing apples to apples there.
[3:08:43] The other thing is that I think is, is unique
[3:08:47] and the board should understand this
[3:08:49] because you're trying to listen to both sides of this,
[3:08:51] to the app, to the abutters as well.
[3:08:53] Mr. Rose did a, did a nice sign formation
[3:08:57] and he said, you know, this is a nice three by six sign.
[3:09:01] Fortunately for myself in today's technology,
[3:09:04] what was in front of that sign was a hay bale
[3:09:07] was a what Was a hay bale.
[3:09:09] Oh. When he did the design, I
[3:09:10] Thought you said hate mail.
[3:09:12] No, it might have been some hate mail too.
[3:09:13] But a hay bale, you being able to use AI and so forth.
[3:09:18] Now the sign he showed you was nine feet long
[3:09:21] and in almost five feet,
[3:09:23] five feet tall based on the size of a hay bale.
[3:09:27] So when you measure it out, what he showed,
[3:09:29] and everyone here, all the abutters thought it looked great,
[3:09:33] is actually the same size,
[3:09:34] almost the same size in in square footage
[3:09:36] as the sign I'm presenting.
[3:09:38] And they thought it was cabinet. Yep. Okay.
[3:09:41] Got it. Okay. Yep. So it just, it might've,
[3:09:44] might've said it was smaller, but it didn't show that way.
[3:09:46] And everyone seemed to feel as though
[3:09:48] that size was, was nice.
[3:09:50] Fortunately it was a hay bale air.
[3:09:51] So I know a hay bale is 35 inches long by,
[3:09:54] by 18 inches tall.
[3:09:55] So you can go and start doing it out.
[3:09:56] So you can see that. Alright,
[3:09:58] So your concession is that the,
[3:10:00] that the externally lit signs on the building would be,
[3:10:04] would follow the lighting if
[3:10:07] this could get approved?
[3:10:11] Is that what you're saying to us?
[3:10:13] Yeah, and if I may, and correct me if I speak outta turn
[3:10:16] Jay, but I think with, with two motions,
[3:10:18] I don't have a problem with the two motions I think though.
[3:10:20] But if, when it comes to the lighting, we've heard,
[3:10:23] you've heard 'em, we'll make concessions,
[3:10:24] we'll put the timer on it, they'll turn off,
[3:10:26] we'll make it less bright, et cetera.
[3:10:29] But, but as opposed to internal versus external, I think
[3:10:32] that's just a whole different thing.
[3:10:35] And, and I think, and,
[3:10:37] and I think you've, you've heard it from the applicant
[3:10:39] that I don't think we're we're, we're pro external
[3:10:42] or you know, probably external lighting.
[3:10:44] So that, that, that would probably be the, the line
[3:10:46] that we'd have to draw, so to speak.
[3:10:49] And your, your timeline on when
[3:10:52] that light would be shut off would be, so if, if I were,
[3:10:54] I think you indicated you had some kind of fancy
[3:10:56] Control that Yeah, it's just new technology, right?
[3:10:59] So it can be set at a time to go on, like you said,
[3:11:03] do I need it on at dusk?
[3:11:04] No, but that's the way a timer can work. I get it. Okay.
[3:11:08] So I can set a time, but I'd have to change it all the time.
[3:11:11] Potentially. It might even have
[3:11:13] something in there that you can do.
[3:11:14] You know, there's so much technology now. And
[3:11:16] Then, sorry to interrupt, just to confirm,
[3:11:18] 'cause again, the bots at my work
[3:11:19] or the band of my existence, you can manually override this.
[3:11:22] Oh yeah, yeah. It's
[3:11:23] Literally a switch and it would go off at nine o'clock.
[3:11:26] Yeah. If I recall, we, we,
[3:11:28] we submitted some material last time we were here about the
[3:11:32] technology that the, the timers can go on.
[3:11:35] And I think the, the idea was basic.
[3:11:37] Yeah, it goes off at nine, you know, goes on
[3:11:41] as it gets dark out.
[3:11:43] And then when you average it out throughout the year,
[3:11:45] it actually would only average out
[3:11:47] to two hours a day. I think it was
[3:11:50] Two hours and five minutes maybe
[3:11:50] or something. You'd have five hours
[3:11:51] Have to look.
[3:11:52] We submitted those in those attachments
[3:11:54] that we put in last meeting.
[3:11:57] So obviously during the winter on a little longer
[3:11:59] during the summer on a little shorter.
[3:12:02] I mean, it's coming up to the time, it won't go on at all.
[3:12:04] But do you need both cabinets lit?
[3:12:10] I think I would think so, yeah. Just for the, for the
[3:12:14] Advertising, I think just for the, yeah,
[3:12:15] Mr.
[3:12:16] Chairman, I opine on that as a board member.
[3:12:18] I, I would not understand why I would
[3:12:23] see an application with two signs and only one of them lit.
[3:12:26] I would, I would think that would, yeah, I,
[3:12:29] I dunno why we'd ever look into
[3:12:31] something like that in general.
[3:12:32] Like that would Yeah, to Crystal's point,
[3:12:34] it would just look decrepit.
[3:12:35] Well, you would have to prove that in the five criteria
[3:12:38] That I felt a look decrepit. And
[3:12:40] So, so I mean we, we, you know, we're, we're not speaking
[3:12:42] to the fact we're using, we're using the, the, the fact
[3:12:46] that the baseball facility is open at, at later time,
[3:12:49] but I do sell Christmas trees.
[3:12:51] I, you know, we, we do open later
[3:12:54] for the nursery at times of year.
[3:12:55] So now I'd have to say, well, okay,
[3:12:57] but I really want it from November to 15th to this time
[3:13:01] to be on, because that's when we sell Christmas trees
[3:13:03] in the, this time of year.
[3:13:05] Okay. Yeah. I I would just think it would be on, it's
[3:13:09] Relative to the board's decision.
[3:13:10] Yep. And it and, and what
[3:13:12] We, and I would think it would be a better look
[3:13:14] for the surrounding area to calf.
[3:13:15] Just both on, it just looked normal to me.
[3:13:18] Okay. Anything else? I have a question. Mr.
[3:13:22] Trip. The signs
[3:13:24] that you have on the buildings, they are lit?
[3:13:28] Yes. Okay. Thank you.
[3:13:32] Ms. Donlin, do you have anything
[3:13:34] to follow up on to consider?
[3:13:35] I do, they referenced, I believe the word you used was
[3:13:39] brightness of the signs as possible to go down
[3:13:43] by 25%.
[3:13:44] Did they speak to any value
[3:13:49] that's not as vague as brightness in 25%?
[3:13:52] Like is this however many Lumens, candles
[3:13:55] or whatever or something like that? Yeah,
[3:13:57] No, it, it initially in the file you'll find information
[3:14:01] on the lumens of this sign.
[3:14:02] It was presented it originally with our sign company.
[3:14:06] It was designed through the sign engineer,
[3:14:11] if you will, about the lumens.
[3:14:12] There's a, there's a big piece in there.
[3:14:14] I would just simply think in, in basic terms,
[3:14:17] we'll just use it for simple terms.
[3:14:18] If it's currently set at a hundred lumens,
[3:14:20] it will go to 75 lumens.
[3:14:22] I don't like Mr. Trip.
[3:14:23] I don't know what, how I can determine a lumen like that.
[3:14:26] I don't know that. I just know it can be turned down
[3:14:28] in a percentage value.
[3:14:30] So fair to say then, to the best
[3:14:32] of your knowledge right now,
[3:14:33] the sign is at a hundred percent of its brightness?
[3:14:37] Yes. I think that's the default.
[3:14:38] That's what my sign company told me. That's the default.
[3:14:41] Okay. Which is what we presented to the initial,
[3:14:45] I think the initial plan in Lumens
[3:14:47] and so forth, which is the standard,
[3:14:51] what they say is the standard.
[3:14:52] So, but I didn't know either until it was brought up
[3:14:56] and I asked the company and they can be turned down.
[3:14:58] Thank You Mr. Chair. Go
[3:15:00] Ahead.
[3:15:01] If I may, 10, 15 may request a second extension.
[3:15:04] Yep. I'll make a motion to extend
[3:15:06] for an additional 15 minutes.
[3:15:08] Mr. Dietzel. Second. Thank you. All in favor? Aye. Aye.
[3:15:12] Okay. You had a question? I have
[3:15:15] A follow up to Mr.
[3:15:16] Dolan's point. Would, before the next meeting,
[3:15:19] can I request, and I apologize for having to go back
[3:15:22] through the documents, but can I request
[3:15:23] that you guys present us kind of what, with
[3:15:25] what the current 100% lumens are
[3:15:28] and then what the 25% reduction will be, just so we have
[3:15:30] that officially rather than Craig meth taking place?
[3:15:35] Sure. Sure. Mr. Donald, you are all set.
[3:15:40] I, I didn't mean to cut you off.
[3:15:42] It's all right. I'm used to it.
[3:15:43] All right. Thank you Mr. Dietzel. I'm all set. Mr. Chair.
[3:15:47] Mr. Dietzel is used to it too, I guess. Oh, no, Mr.
[3:15:50] Trip, you're all set and
[3:15:52] You're all set. I have no questions.
[3:15:53] All right. I'd like to see,
[3:15:54] I just wanna see that one from the
[3:15:56] Sure.
[3:15:57] Having deliver.
[3:16:00] Let's, let's adjourn this.
[3:16:02] All right. I don't think we have to have any more testimony.
[3:16:05] All right. I agree. Faith that way I don't see us getting
[3:16:10] through a fair deliberation.
[3:16:11] That's the point. I understand. I understand.
[3:16:13] And I don't want it rushed. I'm just Yep. Without a sign.
[3:16:16] I understand. And if it's any,
[3:16:20] any significance to, you don't necessarily need to be here
[3:16:23] for the deliberation that happens either, but Yes.
[3:16:26] I, I can be here in your instead if you like, I'm just
[3:16:29] Request a little bit of all Info.
[3:16:30] We're, we're open to if ideas come from the board members,
[3:16:36] they can be relayed to me and then back to code enforcement.
[3:16:40] Okay. And I think I have a good
[3:16:43] understanding of where you're at.
[3:16:47] I think I can appreciate the amount of concessions
[3:16:50] that you are making and that you're hearing kind
[3:16:53] of the, the back and forth.
[3:16:56] And so it's not falling on deaf ears.
[3:16:58] I don't wanna rush through a deliberation
[3:17:00] that I think is gonna take more than 10 minutes.
[3:17:03] Okay. I understand. I, I understand that a hundred
[3:17:05] Percent.
[3:17:06] And, and just so I'm clear, so we are to try
[3:17:08] to get some information submitted, which I could email in on
[3:17:12] lumens and light measurement.
[3:17:14] Yeah. Something, my specific request would just be
[3:17:17] what the current 100% lumens is.
[3:17:18] Okay. And then just specifically defined
[3:17:20] what the 25% reduction is.
[3:17:24] Okay. I will say to you that there is, there is no
[3:17:29] district in this community
[3:17:30] that does not allow for a business sign.
[3:17:33] If you look at all the ordinance, the three pages of it.
[3:17:37] And so I, I can understand,
[3:17:41] but I have an understanding of, I think Mr. Davidson was up
[3:17:46] and there was an exchange, you know,
[3:17:47] about a hundred businesses.
[3:17:49] I think that has to be evaluated
[3:17:51] and you're not a hundred businesses,
[3:17:53] but I think there's that aspect to it as well.
[3:17:56] So just trying to figure out the best way on this. Okay.
[3:18:01] Okay. Thank, I saw Mr. JE
[3:18:04] And, and la Lastly, are we being continue to date certain,
[3:18:07] I'm sorry again, We being continued
[3:18:08] to date certain for the deliberation. We
[3:18:10] Will take this up again at the next board meeting.
[3:18:13] I think you'll get more information as we kind
[3:18:16] of compile what's been presented. Okay. Okay. Alright.
[3:18:20] That would be June 4th. June 4th.
[3:18:23] Do I ask Ms. Per to keep the sign? Do
[3:18:25] You want keep and I'll be able may
[3:18:27] I don't want see the sign.
[3:18:29] Alright gentlemen. Thank you
[3:18:30] Mr. Per, thank you very much.
[3:18:31] Thank you. Thank you. Jury.
[3:18:37] The same information, exchange of information
[3:18:40] Between, would you like that?
[3:18:42] Yes, please. All right.
[3:18:43] Well, I'll tell you what we will, Mrs.
[3:18:45] Oland, you have contact information with these folks?
[3:18:48] I believe I do. Yes. So what we get, we will,
[3:18:50] we will resource through code enforcement.
[3:18:53] Okay. Thank you. All right.
[3:18:59] Let's get onto the later part of the agenda.
[3:19:05] We gotta bring back appointment of officers
[3:19:07] of which we are a month overdue, taken care of As
[3:19:13] policies allow, each board member is allowed to
[3:19:18] select chair, vice chair
[3:19:20] or nominate chair, vice chair, secretary.
[3:19:24] If it's status quo amongst all members,
[3:19:27] you are welcome to state.
[3:19:29] So would somebody like to, Mr.
[3:19:34] Dietzel, would you like to make a nomination for chair?
[3:19:38] Yes, Mr. Chair?
[3:19:39] I'd like to nominate Lynn Perkins for chair.
[3:19:42] Okay. Mr. Corbett? Yeah, I second that nomination.
[3:19:45] All right, Mrs. Morn and Mr.
[3:19:48] Trip, do either of you have an alternative? No. Okay.
[3:19:54] All in favor of Lynn Perkins being chair. Aye. Aye. Aye.
[3:19:57] Aye. Any opposed? All right. Hearing congratulations.
[3:20:01] Thank you Mr. Corbett. Likewise.
[3:20:04] I, I ask for him to stay as vice chair
[3:20:07] and nominate him as such.
[3:20:10] Second Mr. Dietzel seconds that Mr.
[3:20:12] Tripp, you in favor of that? I am in favor of that. Ms.
[3:20:16] Mor, do you have opposition? I do not. All right.
[3:20:19] All in favor of Mr. Corbit being vice
[3:20:21] chair for another year.
[3:20:23] Say aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed? Hearing none.
[3:20:26] Thank you. April. Mrs. Moore, I would ask to be
[3:20:31] remain as secretary, board Secretary.
[3:20:33] Mr. Dietzel? What? Say you
[3:20:36] Second.
[3:20:37] All right. Thank you, Mr. Tripp. You okay with that?
[3:20:39] I'm fine with that. Mr.
[3:20:41] Corbet, any alternatives you wanna suggest? No.
[3:20:44] I think Ms. Moore has done an excellent job the last
[3:20:46] four years, give or take.
[3:20:47] All right. Good enough. All in favor of Ms.
[3:20:50] Mor remaining as secretary say, aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed?
[3:20:54] Hearing none. Our only correspondence is a New Hampshire
[3:20:57] Town and City publication.
[3:20:59] Anybody would like to read that?
[3:21:00] You're welcome to take it home and do so. Anyone?
[3:21:05] All right. Seeing no takers, I'll take it home myself.
[3:21:09] That being said, that will wrap up this evening's session,
[3:21:14] and we will continue with the,
[3:21:17] the other cases at our next meeting, which is June 4th.
[3:21:21] Fourth, okay. Any new cases to add to the agenda?
[3:21:25] We have 2 0 2. Okay.
[3:21:27] Well, at least we're slowing down on the pace, right.
[3:21:31] All right. That means said we can take a motion to adjourn.
[3:21:35] I'll make the motion to adjourn. Thank you. Second, Mr.
[3:21:38] Omba. Seconded by Mr. Dietzel.
[3:21:40] All in favor of adjournment, say aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed?
[3:21:43] Hearing none adjourned.