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>> good morning, everyone. I'm charles allen ward six

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councilmember chair of transportation and environment.

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today is monday july 13th, 2026.

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we're meeting both in room 500 as well as over the zoom virtual

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platform. The time is now 9:44 a.m.

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I'm calling to order this public roundtable.

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the hearing will focus. We introduced bill 26-874.

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bill referred to committee on may 5, 2026.

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the advancement of autonomous vehicles is watershed moment in

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the world of transportation. They are offering ride.

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they all want to boast that they offer rides in the nation's

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capitol. I don't think it's a question of

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avs are coming. Despite what I see as an -- at

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the same time, my tenure, way too many, human drivers cannot

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safely operate a motor vehicle. If there's a transportation

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option we owe to our residents to explore that option fully.

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today, I believe we'll hear from proponents argue that av's

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improve traffic safety and consumer choice.

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if structured the right way. Av's can provide equitable

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access to rideshare service. In our previous hearing, we

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heard from people who are blind and low vision I heard from a

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lot of people who use wheelchairs about shortcoming of

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autonomous vehicles. There are other legitimate

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concerns about autonomous vehicle deployment.

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the deployment of av's on district roadways can exacerbate

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traffic congestion. It draw rider away public

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transportation. Commercial av operation will

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compete with taxi, delivery workers, displacing those jobs.

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crashes or traffic violations involve av's present novel

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question regarding who's responsible for any resulting

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legal liability. As well as potential privacy

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issues and reports of companies alerting authorities and

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observing rider behavior. Some people are just skeptical

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that av's improve traffic safety.

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to be sure, I can make a list of crashes, injuries and dangerous

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human driver decisions as well. Currently, the district on

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allows av companies to engage with a test operator present in

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the vehicle. Vehicle is operating

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autonomously but the human can take over the steering wheel.

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the district department of transportation has been tasked

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developing a driverless test permit for years.

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that progress is stalled. Bill 26-684, the autonomous

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deployment authorization will pave the way for deployment

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commercial av's through a resist.

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let me walk through the provisions.

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first it establishes a autonomous vehicle program that

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will issue av permits. Applicants must have a record of

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safe testing and must submit a first responders interaction

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plan that ensures law enforcement and emergency

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personnel can interact with av's on the road.

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the bill sets deadlines to address permit and commercial av

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permit. Until june 1, 2028, fleet size

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will be limited to 200 vehicles commercial av operators can

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submit on demand vehicle network will allow the operator to

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increase their fleet size. It explains out operator will

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minimize passengerless vehicle trippings, ensure riders have

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equitable access to av's that allows people with disability to

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request a ride. The bill establishes clear rules

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win autonomous driving system can be engaged.

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the bill restricts the use of level 3, 4 and 5 system except

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when an operator received a permit for commercial operation

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and testing. To ensure the vehicle is aware

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of vehicle of semi and manufactures levelings degree

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ufo and 5, must register their products with ddot.

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the bill establishes vmt tax commercial av operators.

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it encourages operators it minimize passengerless

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operators. Hoping today's conversation will

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involve some discussion how to strengthen it.

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the bill improves public transit by investing portion of the

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revenue collected from av operations in the public transit

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infrastructure and service investments.

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the bill encourages av operators to collaborate to offer

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discounted fares for av rides. We have a representative who

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will be join one of our panel to describe how the technology

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support not withhold riders from public transit.

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it also supports existing taxi and rideshare workers by

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requiring the ddot and collaboration and department of

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employment service publish a report on taxi and rideshare

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industries. The bill support taxi and

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rideshare drivers through education and workforce

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development. We'll be joined by labor

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leaders. I look forward to learning about

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their concern. The bill clarifies how existing

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traffic safety laws and liability rules apply to

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autonomous vehicle. The bill provide guidance for

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when human driver or the autonomous driving system should

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be considered the driverrer if the purposes of liability.

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the clarification will help litigants avoid liability

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disputes. Third panel includes legal

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experts including a law professor who helped inform

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those portions of the bill. If I learned anything over the

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last months, already few people are ambivalent about autonomous

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vehicles. Looking forward to today's

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conversation and hearing a recommendations how the bill can

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be strengthened to achieve the goals we want here in the

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district. I do believe we'll be joaned by

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colleagues and council. I will turn to them opening

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statements they have. With that, couple of quick

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comments on the format. Commissioners will have five

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minute each. Public witnesses on behalf of

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organization will have five minute.

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those testifying on their own behalf will have three minutes.

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multiple witnesses testifying on behalf of the same organization,

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only five minutes. We have other 80 registered

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witnesses today. That's great.

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that means I will be using a time keeper.

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for witnesses that are testifying in-person, please

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take a seat at the table when your name is called.

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we may need to pull up a seat to ask a witness to make room.

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for witnesses testifying virtually you will receive a

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prompt via zoom to accept a promotion no panelist.

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please remain seated or in zoom. The committee will accept

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written testimony for the council -- the record closes on

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july 27, 2026. I do believe councilmember lewis

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george is with us online. If have an opening statement, I

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will turn to you before we call our first panel is.

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>> thank you, good morning. Chairperson allen and good

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morning to our witnesses, joining us both in-person and

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online. I will keep my opening remarks

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brief. This hearing marks an important

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moment for the district. Emerging technologies presents

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tremendous opportunities. They reshape how our residents

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interact with a built environment and with one

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another. We saw this with at rival of

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rideshare platform like uber. D.c. Is distinct from the cities

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which av's have been deployed. We have unique public safety

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concerns such as motorcade and specific security measures that

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must be taken into care and consideration.

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especially because safety has to be a cornerstone of our unique

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city, given that we are the capital city of this country.

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I will be listening closely to how these issues will be

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addressed. I'm interested in hearing all

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the perspectives from industry leaders from technical experts

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from advocates from the disability community from our

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labor partners and workers and many others about the deployment

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of autonomous vehicles and the legislation before us today.

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thank you councilman allen for hosting this hearing.

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thank you. >> excellent.

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thank you so much for joining us.

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let's call our first panel which is combination of folks here in

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in-person as well as online. Got matthew walsh.

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regional head of state and local public policy for waymo.

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david margines director of product management for waymo.

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marisa tuell with lyft. India herdman, senior policy

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advisor with tesla. Harry hartfield director and

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policy advisory with uber.

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good morning to you all. Matt walsh, we will kick off

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with you. When you're ready.

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push the button. >> good morning, mr. Chairman

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and members of the committee. My name is matt walsh.

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I'm please to be here today on behalf of waymo.

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where I serve as regional head of state and local policy.

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imaginalled toad by waymo director of product management,

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david margines. We appreciate the opportunity to

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participate. I want to thank you,

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mr. Chairman, for your leadership and restarting this

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important conversation. This proposed legislation is one

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of the most robust av frameworks in the nation.

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the first to focus on workers, transit and equitable

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transportation. We strongly support the bill's

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objectives and we know from our experience that waymo service

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can help accomplish that. Making roads safer, creating

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opportunities for district residents and making rideshare

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more accessible and equitable. Waymo serves the public in 11

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major city, providing 500,000 fully autonomous rides every

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week. In d.c., we have operated with

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professional test drivers in our vehicles for the past two years

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as that is the maximum operating authority currently allowed by

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ddot. We have spent this time

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validating the technology across all eight wards of the district,

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autonomously driving more than 300,000 miles with trained

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professionals behind the wheel. Compared to human drivers, the

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data shows we are reducing injury causing crashes in cities

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where we operate. With 220 million miles of

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driving, we helped prevent more than 700 injury crashes.

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including near the 50 that could have caused serious injury or

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worse. We're avoiding about 13 injury

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crashes every single week. Our technology alone won't fix

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all of d.c.'s road safety challenges.

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it will absolutely contribute to the safe system's approach

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outlined in the district's vision zero plan.

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waymo's automated driving system increases safety for all road

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users. It is designed to follow traffic

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laws and travel at safe speeds. Waymo can build upon the success

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that the district has made in reducing fatalities on the

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roadways. Waymo will bring new

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opportunities to d.c. Our commitment to the district

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is built on direct, large scale investments in local workforce

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and infrastructure. Traditional riding networks push

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heavy operating costs on drivers.

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with take a fundamentally different approach and recently

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committed tens of millions of dollars in wards five and seven

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to build service centers and charging facilities to support

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our fleet. If the council can provide

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additional regulatory certainty, our current local workforce will

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grow from dozens of people today to hundreds of personnel who

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will provide day-to-day operational support.

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the construction of our facilities will also create

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hundreds more jobs and the maintenance of our fleet will

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bring more business to the local automotive supply chain.

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this is only the beginning. If the district chooses to

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become a regional leader in this space, waymo will match that

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vision with long-term investment and jobs needed to support it.

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these investments are crucial for operating a robust service

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that addresses transportation equity challenges in the

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district. Transportation is the gateway to

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employment, education, healthcare and participation in

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community life. Our technology does not consider

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a rider's race, income, disability or destination.

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we offer a safe space where people can feel inherent secured

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and option for people including those who are blind or low

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vision who face barriers getting around.

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a scaled av fleet supported by significant investment in local

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jobs and infrastructure will offer predictable wait time and

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uniform service across the district.

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helping address the geographic inequalities that have hinchly

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impacted residents east of the river.

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we look forward to developing deeper partnerships with the

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district and community organizations to fill

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transportation gaps as we have in cities where we serve.

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in los angeles and san francisco, we're proud to

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partner with city agencies like l.a. Metro and community os

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including the homeless prenatal program to provide subsidized

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rides to underserve community. In the bay area, we are

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exploring partnerships to connect our riders with bus and

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trains. We want to bring that

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collaborative approach to the district.

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we are optimistic about this legislation and we are eager to

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deepen our partnership with the district.

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we consistently hear from thousands of washingtonians who

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are excited to have the opportunity to choose waymo

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alongside other great options available.

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we proud to have the support of dozens of organizes representing

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a diverse range of washingtonians who believe waymo

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will be a positive force in their community.

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these include the national council on independent living,

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new futures d.c., the arc, and many others who I'm proud to see

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in the room today. If the district establishes this

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pramework, waymo is ready to deliver safer roads, remove

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transportation barriers for residents and back it up with

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hundreds of local jobs. We look forward to working with

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this committee, department of transportation and the community

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to get this right and build the safer, more sustainable and more

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equitable transit ecosystem. Thank you.

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I look forward to your questions.

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>> thank you very much. Mr. Margines.

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>> I yielded my time for comments.

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>> thank you very much. All right, marisa tuell.

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>> good morning, chairman allen. Members of the committee.

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my name is marisa tuell, I'm pleased to testify on behalf of

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lyft. Lyft is operated our rideshare

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00:31:17,882 --> 00:31:20,217
platform in the district for other a decade.

253
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we also operate capital bike share.

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giving us unique advantage point how mobility technology fits in

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the transportation network. We thank you, chairman allen and

256
00:31:31,229 --> 00:31:34,833
the ddot for the delivered approach the district has taken

257
00:31:34,833 --> 00:31:40,233
towards autonomous vehicles. We support the bill's goal to

258
00:31:55,987 --> 00:32:00,257
bring av's to d.c. Andly the best way to realize that goal

259
00:32:00,257 --> 00:32:03,600
for equity, transit and workforce is to make sure that

260
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,731
the bill clearly accommodates hybrid network deployment

261
00:32:06,731 --> 00:32:09,660
structures. On a hybrid network, human

262
00:32:09,660 --> 00:32:12,269
drivers and av's operate side-by-side on the same

263
00:32:12,269 --> 00:32:15,206
platform. Sharing supply and demand and

264
00:32:15,206 --> 00:32:19,210
reasonabreasonable -- reaching e people and more places.

265
00:32:19,210 --> 00:32:23,414
as introduced, the bill is silent on whether permitted av

266
00:32:23,414 --> 00:32:27,218
operator may dispatch through existing rideshare platform.

267
00:32:27,218 --> 00:32:32,618
that ra creates real ambiguity m companies like ours.

268
00:32:33,424 --> 00:32:40,240
we urge the committee to add language for hi hybrid networks.

269
00:32:41,990 --> 00:32:46,971
lyft already operates this model in atlanta, riders access av

270
00:32:46,971 --> 00:32:51,409
rides from our partner on the lyft platform and later this

271
00:32:51,409 --> 00:32:53,911
year, waymo av's will be available for matching on the

272
00:32:53,911 --> 00:32:59,911
lyft platform in nashville. The district has been clear that

273
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,530
it wants av deployment to expand access.

274
00:33:12,530 --> 00:33:16,401
av's don't need to solve every mobility challenge.

275
00:33:16,401 --> 00:33:21,206
like ddot approach, no single mode fits every need.

276
00:33:21,206 --> 00:33:24,341
av fleets will be limited to specific service areas and fixed

277
00:33:24,341 --> 00:33:27,545
number of vehicles in situation like extreme weather event to

278
00:33:27,545 --> 00:33:33,218
require them to pause service. Hybrid network who draw on human

279
00:33:33,218 --> 00:33:36,821
drivers, is well positioned to deliver consistent, resilient

280
00:33:36,821 --> 00:33:39,624
and district-wide service from day one.

281
00:33:39,624 --> 00:33:44,228
it preserves choice for riders like older adults and those with

282
00:33:44,228 --> 00:33:46,630
mobility challenge who may assistance of a human driver.

283
00:33:46,630 --> 00:33:52,369
providing new options for riders who excited about the benefit of

284
00:33:52,369 --> 00:33:55,907
av's and don't feel like their needs are well met.

285
00:33:55,907 --> 00:34:00,707
the disruption drivers feel from automation isn't new.

286
00:34:01,713 --> 00:34:06,513
atm's, self-checkout, didn't eliminate tellers and ca cashie.

287
00:34:09,721 --> 00:34:15,121
it gave customers more ways to bank and shop.

288
00:34:18,596 --> 00:34:25,196
on another plat -- platform, the number of human drivers have

289
00:34:25,770 --> 00:34:28,540
grown year-over-year. This transition creates new

290
00:34:28,540 --> 00:34:32,740
opportunities. Av fleets need fleet manager and

291
00:34:34,578 --> 00:34:37,481
technicians that offer full-time opportunities.

292
00:34:37,481 --> 00:34:41,753
we begun building in nashville and one we like to replicate

293
00:34:41,753 --> 00:34:45,690
with av partners here in d.c. We appreciate the committee's

294
00:34:45,690 --> 00:34:49,627
openness that works for district residents, visitors, drivers and

295
00:34:49,627 --> 00:34:54,499
companies ready to invest here. Equity, resiliency and workforce

296
00:34:54,499 --> 00:34:58,169
continuity are four benefits of the same design choice.

297
00:34:58,169 --> 00:35:01,839
a framework that treats hybrid deployment as a core option.

298
00:35:01,839 --> 00:35:05,610
district is taking time to get this right.

299
00:35:05,610 --> 00:35:08,913
we believe that patience puts d.c. In a strong position to

300
00:35:08,913 --> 00:35:11,449
lead by example. Thank you.

301
00:35:11,449 --> 00:35:15,649
>> thank you very much. Next, india herdman.

302
00:35:17,122 --> 00:35:19,522
good morning. >> good morning.

303
00:35:20,959 --> 00:35:23,461
chair allen, members of the committee.

304
00:35:23,461 --> 00:35:28,261
I'm india herdman. I'm senior policy advisor tesla.

305
00:35:31,690 --> 00:35:33,471
autonomous vehicle represent transformative opportunity for

306
00:35:33,471 --> 00:35:36,874
d.c. Resident. Av's promise to improve road

307
00:35:36,874 --> 00:35:41,740
safety, create new jobs and expand accessibility.

308
00:35:41,345 --> 00:35:45,545
in june 2025, tesla began operating robotaxi, our

309
00:35:47,786 --> 00:35:49,220
commercial autonomous ride service in texas.

310
00:35:49,220 --> 00:35:52,123
rides are available to the public in austin, dallas,

311
00:35:52,123 --> 00:35:55,826
houston and miami. Safety is our top priority.

312
00:35:55,826 --> 00:36:00,260
tesla's vision-based automated driving system is designedder

313
00:36:01,232 --> 00:36:04,235
superior safety, delivering deeper seen understanding,

314
00:36:04,235 --> 00:36:07,906
faster reaction time and more reliable decision-making.

315
00:36:07,906 --> 00:36:13,311
the tesla ads is trained on over 11 billion miles of real world

316
00:36:13,311 --> 00:36:16,247
driving, including events that most drivers never experience in

317
00:36:16,247 --> 00:36:19,847
their lifetime. Tesla's ads system performance

318
00:36:20,718 --> 00:36:23,118
service validated against scenarios.

319
00:36:27,925 --> 00:36:30,528
av's represent tremendous economic opportunities.

320
00:36:30,528 --> 00:36:34,131
research shows that av adoption could create three million new

321
00:36:34,131 --> 00:36:37,731
jobs in the united states by 2035.

322
00:36:37,735 --> 00:36:41,739
tesla with over 100,000 u.s. Employees, builds av technology

323
00:36:41,739 --> 00:36:46,310
in-house to scale production and create high quality american

324
00:36:46,310 --> 00:36:48,790
jobs. Av expand access for everyone as

325
00:36:48,790 --> 00:36:52,879
my colleagues have mentioned. Tesla robotaxi vehicles support

326
00:36:57,822 --> 00:37:02,220
in 29 languages. Tesla supports the intent of

327
00:37:05,437 --> 00:37:08,306
this legislation, we believe significant amendments are

328
00:37:08,306 --> 00:37:15,506
needed to ensure d.c. Can fully capitalize on the av's offer.

329
00:37:18,216 --> 00:37:23,160
we usual the strike the 180 mandatory testing requirement

330
00:37:24,523 --> 00:37:28,723
the combined 180 day waiting period and 250,000-mile

331
00:37:29,261 --> 00:37:32,631
requirement creates an unnecessarily burdensome barrier

332
00:37:32,631 --> 00:37:35,666
to entry. Second, the proposed permit fees

333
00:37:35,666 --> 00:37:40,405
are extraordinarily high and out of step with the national

334
00:37:40,405 --> 00:37:41,673
market. $1 million non-refundable

335
00:37:41,673 --> 00:37:44,743
application fee plus a $5 million operational permit

336
00:37:44,743 --> 00:37:47,546
fee followed by $1 million renewals.

337
00:37:47,546 --> 00:37:52,840
this far exceeds any other u.s. Jurisdiction.

338
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:56,210
for context, nevada caps one-time permit fiat $500,000.

339
00:37:56,210 --> 00:37:58,423
we urge the committee to substantially lower these permit

340
00:37:58,423 --> 00:38:03,223
fees to levels that are reasonable, proportionate and

341
00:38:03,995 --> 00:38:04,897
aligned with national benchmarks.

342
00:38:04,897 --> 00:38:10,297
third, we urge removal of prooperation -- provisions in

343
00:38:10,568 --> 00:38:15,674
reporting requirement that don't overlap with data made public by

344
00:38:15,674 --> 00:38:18,443
the national highway safety administration.

345
00:38:18,443 --> 00:38:23,243
tesla opposes levying 15-cent a mile on av's.

346
00:38:25,784 --> 00:38:30,521
any new tax deserves rigorous scrutiny one that adds

347
00:38:30,521 --> 00:38:34,192
technology specifically designed to provide more affordable

348
00:38:34,192 --> 00:38:36,261
transportation. Notably, no other jurisdiction

349
00:38:36,261 --> 00:38:39,731
has imposed av specific tax of this nature.

350
00:38:39,731 --> 00:38:43,268
finally, tesla strongly opposed the litigation and liability

351
00:38:43,268 --> 00:38:48,273
provisions in the bill which present a significant departure

352
00:38:48,273 --> 00:38:52,473
from liability principles. Most concerning the provision

353
00:38:52,878 --> 00:38:55,480
that imposes tort liability whenever the automated driving

354
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:59,830
system is engaged without the necessity approving product

355
00:38:59,830 --> 00:39:02,830
defect. Ads engagement should not

356
00:39:02,354 --> 00:39:07,154
absolve a plaintiff from the fundamental requirement of

357
00:39:08,930 --> 00:39:11,693
proving product defect. These provisions expand

358
00:39:12,697 --> 00:39:15,434
manufacture exposure and risk chilling innovation by creating

359
00:39:15,434 --> 00:39:16,968
unpredictable and unlimited liability.

360
00:39:16,968 --> 00:39:21,706
we urge the committee to substantially revise these

361
00:39:21,706 --> 00:39:22,574
provisions. Tesla is committed to working

362
00:39:22,574 --> 00:39:24,976
with the committee to ensure that legislation promotes both

363
00:39:24,976 --> 00:39:29,514
the highest standards of public safety and continue innovation

364
00:39:29,514 --> 00:39:32,830
in av technology. We stand ready to partner with

365
00:39:32,830 --> 00:39:37,483
you to ensure safer roads, expanded mobility and click

366
00:39:37,656 --> 00:39:40,458
growth -- economic growth for the people of d.c.

367
00:39:40,458 --> 00:39:45,258
>> thank you very much. I got harry hartfield.

368
00:39:46,331 --> 00:39:48,566
>> chairperson allen and members of the committee.

369
00:39:48,566 --> 00:39:52,166
thank you for opportunity to testify.

370
00:39:52,871 --> 00:39:57,900
my name is harry hatfield. We support the expansion of

371
00:39:57,900 --> 00:39:59,744
autonomous vehicles. We appreciate the council's

372
00:39:59,744 --> 00:40:02,947
willingness to engage on this issue.

373
00:40:02,947 --> 00:40:06,752
av's is have are the potential to make our roads safer, expand

374
00:40:06,752 --> 00:40:10,255
access to transportation and lower costs.

375
00:40:10,255 --> 00:40:14,930
the question for the council is not whether autonomous vehicle

376
00:40:14,930 --> 00:40:17,495
should come to the vehicle it's when.

377
00:40:17,495 --> 00:40:20,632
the question instead is how best balance notification in way that

378
00:40:20,632 --> 00:40:24,350
benefits riders, drivers and all washingtonians.

379
00:40:24,350 --> 00:40:26,438
we believe this bill gets that balance wrong.

380
00:40:26,438 --> 00:40:29,708
if future of transportation is not a binary choice between

381
00:40:29,708 --> 00:40:34,508
human drivers and autonomous drivers the future of

382
00:40:35,547 --> 00:40:40,347
transportation will be hybrid. Each fulfilling different needs.

383
00:40:57,680 --> 00:40:58,870
unfortunately, this bill does the opposite.

384
00:40:58,870 --> 00:41:02,140
it limits competition. By requiring companies to build

385
00:41:02,140 --> 00:41:05,677
autonomous technology and operate the rideshare platform.

386
00:41:05,677 --> 00:41:10,415
the bill narrows the field to small number of companies.

387
00:41:10,415 --> 00:41:14,886
it's hostile to start-ups and small businesses and forces

388
00:41:14,886 --> 00:41:17,880
drivers to go to autonomous vehicles.

389
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:21,726
second, it contains no requirement to ensure service

390
00:41:21,726 --> 00:41:27,126
reaches all cohort. In the bay area, av operations

391
00:41:27,565 --> 00:41:29,834
have expanded in the san francisco wealthiest

392
00:41:29,834 --> 00:41:33,434
neighborhoods while remaining absent from underserved

393
00:41:33,705 --> 00:41:37,642
communities. The bill does not provide a

394
00:41:37,642 --> 00:41:41,842
framework for accessibility from ability, disabilities or

395
00:41:42,713 --> 00:41:46,313
mandatory supply. Accessibility cannot be an

396
00:41:48,319 --> 00:41:51,255
afterthought. Technology is in the infancy.

397
00:41:51,255 --> 00:41:55,260
autonomous technology learning how to manage situation to

398
00:41:55,260 --> 00:41:59,460
understand blackout,s, rain and flood events.

399
00:41:59,531 --> 00:42:02,867
the outcomes impact not just av passengers but residents across

400
00:42:02,867 --> 00:42:06,470
the city. That risk is magnified in the

401
00:42:06,470 --> 00:42:09,673
district with motorcades and frequent unexpected road

402
00:42:09,673 --> 00:42:11,800
closures. Finally, the bill ignores the

403
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:13,678
workforce transition. There are tens of thousands of

404
00:42:13,678 --> 00:42:17,140
drivers in the district. Workforce disruption is not a

405
00:42:17,140 --> 00:42:21,352
reason to stop innovation but we should be honest about the

406
00:42:21,352 --> 00:42:22,887
tradeoffs. Av's can grow in partnership

407
00:42:22,887 --> 00:42:25,757
with drivers. We've seen firsthand the impact

408
00:42:25,757 --> 00:42:30,762
when av's and drivers compete. In san francisco and los

409
00:42:30,762 --> 00:42:35,562
angeles, where drivers compete, driver utilization declined last

410
00:42:37,569 --> 00:42:41,769
year. One av in california now perform

411
00:42:45,910 --> 00:42:51,310
roughly of four drivers. That's how the district can

412
00:42:52,516 --> 00:42:55,516
lady. Not by moving first.

413
00:42:55,720 --> 00:42:59,920
thank you for your time. >> all right.

414
00:43:00,391 --> 00:43:03,928
thank you all very much. A lot of questions for the

415
00:43:03,928 --> 00:43:06,831
panel. Thank you very much.

416
00:43:06,831 --> 00:43:10,870
so, I will start probably mr. Walsh.

417
00:43:10,870 --> 00:43:16,270
few questions for you. How many vehicles are currently

418
00:43:16,810 --> 00:43:20,410
deployed in your testing phase today?

419
00:43:21,247 --> 00:43:25,447
>> here in the district. It's currently 25 vehicles.

420
00:43:27,870 --> 00:43:30,687
>> okay. What is their level of

421
00:43:30,823 --> 00:43:35,230
automation right now using sae level system?

422
00:43:35,228 --> 00:43:38,228
>> that would be level 4. >> okay.

423
00:43:41,167 --> 00:43:45,967
does anybody else have any vehicles testing currently?

424
00:43:48,574 --> 00:43:51,845
>> we're not testing level 4. We are doing data collection at

425
00:43:51,845 --> 00:43:54,245
level 2. >> okay, thank you.

426
00:43:57,117 --> 00:43:59,252
mr. Walsh, how many miles of testing have you performed in

427
00:43:59,252 --> 00:44:02,852
the district? >> over 300,000 miles in the

428
00:44:03,656 --> 00:44:08,395
last two years. >> what is the breakdown of

429
00:44:08,395 --> 00:44:11,995
testing miles by ward, for example?

430
00:44:12,799 --> 00:44:17,137
>> I don't have the exact mileage break down by ward.

431
00:44:17,137 --> 00:44:19,873
we have mapped the entirety of the district.

432
00:44:19,873 --> 00:44:22,743
all eight wards we have mapped and or tested.

433
00:44:22,743 --> 00:44:26,120
there's not a single ward that we haven't been in.

434
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:29,682
I think we've said that our commitment is to serve the

435
00:44:29,682 --> 00:44:32,180
entirety of the district. We can follow-up with your

436
00:44:32,180 --> 00:44:35,618
office on the specific mileage breakdown.

437
00:44:35,889 --> 00:44:40,930
>> should I their that to mean that your test vehicle driven

438
00:44:40,930 --> 00:44:43,230
every block every road in entirety of the district?

439
00:44:43,230 --> 00:44:45,565
>> that is correct. >> some blocks you driven many

440
00:44:45,565 --> 00:44:49,165
more times over? >> that is true.

441
00:44:49,636 --> 00:44:53,836
>> okay. When we think about a testing

442
00:44:57,777 --> 00:45:01,447
regime, should driving, for example downtown over and over

443
00:45:01,447 --> 00:45:03,450
again, certainly will tell you something.

444
00:45:03,450 --> 00:45:09,389
if I'm looking for a system that is across the whole city, should

445
00:45:09,389 --> 00:45:11,925
the legislation not require total number of miles but to

446
00:45:11,925 --> 00:45:17,925
have some type of geographic distribution such that any av

447
00:45:18,465 --> 00:45:21,536
operator should have to be able to show they tested never corner

448
00:45:21,536 --> 00:45:26,540
of the ward, every neighborhood, unique characteristics that go

449
00:45:26,540 --> 00:45:30,740
with those roadways? >> it's an important question.

450
00:45:31,745 --> 00:45:34,280
we would be interested in having a conversation with you and your

451
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:39,420
team over the summer about exactly how the way to achieve

452
00:45:39,420 --> 00:45:43,620
that. Regardless of how we ensure that

453
00:45:45,358 --> 00:45:49,462
that test is done. That has been to a commitment

454
00:45:49,462 --> 00:45:51,965
from av operator. That's something that waymo has

455
00:45:51,965 --> 00:45:54,567
been committed to and continues to be committed to.

456
00:45:54,567 --> 00:45:57,104
certainly we've shown that through the testing and mapping

457
00:45:57,104 --> 00:46:01,240
that we have done. I do think it's important part

458
00:46:01,240 --> 00:46:05,979
of this conversation that all operators should be committed to

459
00:46:05,979 --> 00:46:11,379
providing equitable service. >> do you have a breakdown of

460
00:46:12,718 --> 00:46:17,256
testing miles by condition? What I mean by that, by day,

461
00:46:17,256 --> 00:46:23,530
night, day snow, by ice. To get a full testing experience

462
00:46:23,530 --> 00:46:26,333
of what the conditions will be like in the district?

463
00:46:26,333 --> 00:46:29,604
>> over the last two years, we have seen pretty much everything

464
00:46:29,604 --> 00:46:33,873
that the district has had to offer us.

465
00:46:33,873 --> 00:46:36,676
I don't have those exact breakdown figures.

466
00:46:36,676 --> 00:46:40,947
I'm happy to follow up. >> do you categorize your

467
00:46:40,947 --> 00:46:45,747
testing by condition? Is that a known answer?

468
00:46:46,686 --> 00:46:49,489
you can get back to us. >> it absolutely is.

469
00:46:49,489 --> 00:46:54,360
we do characterize those. We seek to get as much of a

470
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:57,764
variety as possible when we do deploy, we do start to scale.

471
00:46:57,764 --> 00:47:01,364
we are prepared for anything. >> okay.

472
00:47:05,238 --> 00:47:09,420
have there been or how many collisions have there been

473
00:47:09,420 --> 00:47:11,310
during the testing phase with your vehicles?

474
00:47:11,310 --> 00:47:13,447
there there have been a hand full of collisions.

475
00:47:13,447 --> 00:47:15,915
most of them have been in the fault of other human drivers

476
00:47:15,915 --> 00:47:21,915
from what I understand. Those have been reported to ddot

477
00:47:22,254 --> 00:47:24,391
as require. There's been no serious major

478
00:47:24,391 --> 00:47:27,391
collision. >> does that report distinguish

479
00:47:29,663 --> 00:47:36,268
whether -- does it assign fault where the fault lied in that

480
00:47:36,268 --> 00:47:38,872
collision? >> to the best of my knowledge,

481
00:47:38,872 --> 00:47:40,608
the report details the facts of the incident.

482
00:47:40,608 --> 00:47:47,346
I do not believe that when we put that report in, we're not

483
00:47:47,346 --> 00:47:52,746
assigned fault to waymo. There's police reports that npd

484
00:47:53,153 --> 00:47:55,688
files. We as waymo do not assign fault

485
00:47:55,688 --> 00:48:01,688
in our reports. >> I want to pull the thread a

486
00:48:03,362 --> 00:48:06,962
little bit on understanding the app.

487
00:48:07,967 --> 00:48:11,567
hybrid model versus a vertical integration.

488
00:48:15,308 --> 00:48:21,308
the legislation is silent to it we didn't legislatively specify

489
00:48:21,714 --> 00:48:23,449
what the actual integration has to be.

490
00:48:23,449 --> 00:48:28,540
sometimes we're a little -- we don't to over legislate.

491
00:48:28,540 --> 00:48:34,654
that can lock things in. At the same time, if I

492
00:48:35,428 --> 00:48:38,864
understood ms. Tuell it can be interpreted to disallow that

493
00:48:38,864 --> 00:48:41,400
from taking place. I understand your argument is we

494
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:47,400
don't want to disallow it. Does waymo operate a hybrid

495
00:48:48,875 --> 00:48:52,780
network platform in other jurisdictions or is it mixed

496
00:48:52,780 --> 00:48:54,414
based on which jurisdiction you're in?

497
00:48:54,414 --> 00:48:56,750
>> mr. Chairman, I think a better way to sort of zoom out

498
00:48:56,750 --> 00:49:00,886
and talk about the fact that I think when we talk about a

499
00:49:00,886 --> 00:49:03,357
hybrid network, which has been said multiple times today that

500
00:49:03,357 --> 00:49:08,695
your colleagues have had. This idea of hybrid network is a

501
00:49:08,695 --> 00:49:13,633
problem in search of a solution. It's a solution in search of

502
00:49:13,633 --> 00:49:15,368
problem. In 11 major cities that we

503
00:49:15,368 --> 00:49:18,905
operate this today, there is a ecosystem of transportation

504
00:49:18,905 --> 00:49:21,862
options. People can choose to take a

505
00:49:21,862 --> 00:49:24,532
waymo. People can choose to take one of

506
00:49:24,532 --> 00:49:28,336
the ride handling apps. People can choose metro transit.

507
00:49:28,336 --> 00:49:33,140
the idea this that legislation has to be specific in statute as

508
00:49:33,140 --> 00:49:35,943
to needing a hybrid network. I don't understand that.

509
00:49:35,943 --> 00:49:38,612
as written, there will be the same transportation ecosystem

510
00:49:38,612 --> 00:49:41,882
that operates here that operates in every any other city that we

511
00:49:41,882 --> 00:49:46,620
currently operate in. I'm not quite sure, I don't

512
00:49:46,620 --> 00:49:50,357
think your colleagues have understood what this hybrid

513
00:49:50,357 --> 00:49:55,496
network truly is. >> let me pull in mr. Hartfield

514
00:49:55,496 --> 00:50:00,501
and ms. Tuell on this. When I take an uber, I pull out

515
00:50:00,501 --> 00:50:02,602
my app. I have different types of

516
00:50:02,602 --> 00:50:04,304
choices what type of vehicle I'm looking at.

517
00:50:04,304 --> 00:50:07,708
if provides me an approximate time and cost.

518
00:50:07,708 --> 00:50:11,244
I can make a choice. If I'm not going to take an

519
00:50:11,244 --> 00:50:19,440
uber, because I'm going to go jump on a bikeshare, I don't go

520
00:50:19,530 --> 00:50:20,855
to uber app to get the bikeshare.

521
00:50:20,855 --> 00:50:26,393
same phone, I say, where are my bikes that are available.

522
00:50:26,393 --> 00:50:31,232
why do I need a hybrid model, why do you think that's

523
00:50:31,232 --> 00:50:34,234
advantageous you're advocating for that, compared to probably

524
00:50:34,234 --> 00:50:39,407
have all the apps on my phone here and I can choose the best

525
00:50:39,407 --> 00:50:45,880
one that I'm looking for. >> today, if you open your lyft

526
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:52,480
app in d.c., we have human driven apps available and

527
00:50:53,553 --> 00:50:57,153
bikeshare. You tip in your destination.

528
00:50:58,910 --> 00:51:04,231
you assess how am I beginning to get there based on wait time or

529
00:51:04,231 --> 00:51:08,769
proximity of bicycle cost. When we bring av's on the

530
00:51:08,769 --> 00:51:11,105
platform that will be a new added choice.

531
00:51:11,105 --> 00:51:16,109
we also believe will bring needs of riders today that see human

532
00:51:16,109 --> 00:51:17,845
driven ride or see bikeshare ride.

533
00:51:17,845 --> 00:51:19,780
saying my needs are not being met.

534
00:51:19,780 --> 00:51:23,850
that's the big opportunity for us there.

535
00:51:23,850 --> 00:51:27,450
>> mr. Hartfield. >> one quick clarifying thing.

536
00:51:31,392 --> 00:51:34,395
it wouldn't allow uber or lyft for that matter to have av's on

537
00:51:34,395 --> 00:51:37,995
their platform. Only an av developer,

538
00:51:42,536 --> 00:51:46,139
manufacturer, operator can get the av permit to dispatch those

539
00:51:46,139 --> 00:51:49,900
vehicles which means that uber and lyft couldn't get the

540
00:51:49,900 --> 00:51:51,345
permit. We therefore couldn't dispatch

541
00:51:51,345 --> 00:51:54,748
av's on our platform. If we went to go work with a

542
00:51:54,748 --> 00:51:59,548
company with av's we allowed to do that.

543
00:52:00,287 --> 00:52:03,224
>> just to be clear, I don't believe that was the legislative

544
00:52:03,224 --> 00:52:05,493
intent. That's the point of hearing

545
00:52:05,493 --> 00:52:08,829
where we're able to hear different perspectives and

546
00:52:08,829 --> 00:52:14,301
readings and we work on goals. >> I think zooming out, the

547
00:52:14,301 --> 00:52:17,772
benefit of the hybrid network, yes, it's from customer

548
00:52:17,772 --> 00:52:21,108
experience. I'm going to the airport, it's

549
00:52:21,108 --> 00:52:24,712
nice to have that option. I think that's a positive

550
00:52:24,712 --> 00:52:28,181
customer experience. For the city, the district, for

551
00:52:28,181 --> 00:52:32,981
drivers, the benefits are we run rideshare network.

552
00:52:35,388 --> 00:52:40,610
we should be better. We don't need thousands of av's

553
00:52:40,610 --> 00:52:45,461
to run relabel. Hundreds of av's can help me

554
00:52:46,667 --> 00:52:48,468
demand and meet people where they are.

555
00:52:48,468 --> 00:52:56,268
if got an av only network, you need thousand plus av to meet

556
00:52:58,110 --> 00:53:00,748
demand otherwise your eta's are too long.

557
00:53:00,748 --> 00:53:04,170
it's like a reverse fly wheel if you will.

558
00:53:04,170 --> 00:53:08,817
hybrid network will ask you to scale slowly.

559
00:53:09,356 --> 00:53:13,493
drivers sort of have more time to make an adjustment.

560
00:53:13,493 --> 00:53:17,698
I would say overtime, drivers will start to leave the

561
00:53:17,698 --> 00:53:19,499
platform. There will be less work.

562
00:53:19,499 --> 00:53:22,836
that's the nature of this. It's not a reason to stop it.

563
00:53:22,836 --> 00:53:25,505
it's something we should keep in mind.

564
00:53:25,505 --> 00:53:29,843
that means traditional rideshare might be little less reliable.

565
00:53:29,843 --> 00:53:35,843
an av can't operate or won't operate in certain places.

566
00:53:36,750 --> 00:53:38,651
the fallback network isn't there.

567
00:53:38,651 --> 00:53:43,857
we think that a hybrid network allows you to scale better.

568
00:53:43,857 --> 00:53:51,657
it also -- we serve -- you should have to serve all the

569
00:53:52,132 --> 00:53:56,932
wards on day one. Av's will be safer.

570
00:53:57,804 --> 00:53:59,940
they have an incredible safety benefit.

571
00:53:59,940 --> 00:54:03,610
we won't realize the safety benefit unless day one.

572
00:54:03,610 --> 00:54:07,810
I'm happy to keep talking about it.

573
00:54:08,948 --> 00:54:12,886
>> I will turn my colleague for round of questions.

574
00:54:12,886 --> 00:54:15,956
I do think, happy to work with folks after the hearing as we

575
00:54:15,956 --> 00:54:20,156
think in the weeks and months ahead.

576
00:54:21,295 --> 00:54:23,764
part of the legislation contemplate, the company request

577
00:54:23,764 --> 00:54:26,567
asking the av permit. We want to be one that's

578
00:54:26,567 --> 00:54:32,906
directly managing the fleet. I hear, I will wrestle with this

579
00:54:32,906 --> 00:54:36,510
ail little bit, around what is the user interface look like in

580
00:54:36,510 --> 00:54:42,510
a way that consumer friendly for that choice as possible.

581
00:54:42,916 --> 00:54:45,586
we want to create a system direct management of the fleet.

582
00:54:45,586 --> 00:54:52,786
we'll come back to that. I want to turn to my colleague,

583
00:54:53,660 --> 00:54:55,529
councilwoman lewis george. >> I appreciate the conversation

584
00:54:55,529 --> 00:55:01,529
around the hybrid model. Ms. Tuell and mr. Hartfield, how

585
00:55:01,869 --> 00:55:07,140
many drivers do you have on your app in the d.c. Region and how

586
00:55:07,140 --> 00:55:11,340
many driver more than 20 hours per week?

587
00:55:12,279 --> 00:55:15,150
>> I don't have an official number.

588
00:55:15,150 --> 00:55:16,817
tens of thousands of drivers in the district.

589
00:55:16,817 --> 00:55:21,755
in general, about 80% of them drive less than 20 hours a week.

590
00:55:21,755 --> 00:55:24,691
I'm happy to come back. >> thank you.

591
00:55:24,691 --> 00:55:30,250
>> I have this number. About 87% of drivers on the lyft

592
00:55:30,250 --> 00:55:32,918
network work fewer than 20 hours a week.

593
00:55:32,918 --> 00:55:37,118
that is national, not d.c. Specific.

594
00:55:37,456 --> 00:55:42,256
>> how is this changed in jurisdictions where av's

595
00:55:45,732 --> 00:55:49,932
operate? >> we seen in places where av's

596
00:55:51,404 --> 00:55:57,404
compete with human drivers. Like san francisco and l.a.

597
00:56:00,747 --> 00:56:04,350
there are whole host of reasons for that.

598
00:56:04,350 --> 00:56:08,755
clearly, there's an impact. There's an impact how many trips

599
00:56:08,755 --> 00:56:13,555
drivers get. People who use it flexible way

600
00:56:25,380 --> 00:56:29,308
to make money or college student after school and parent making

601
00:56:29,308 --> 00:56:32,779
extra money for christmas. Those people have little less

602
00:56:32,779 --> 00:56:35,615
time to make the same amount will probably see the

603
00:56:35,615 --> 00:56:39,215
consequences first. >> thank you for that.

604
00:56:41,654 --> 00:56:46,325
mr. Walsh and I wanted to come to you around can you speak in

605
00:56:46,325 --> 00:56:50,530
greater detail about the number of employees you have in other

606
00:56:50,530 --> 00:56:55,100
regions comparable size? What kinds of jobs do you

607
00:56:55,100 --> 00:56:59,201
generally bring into markets with av deployment?

608
00:56:59,406 --> 00:57:01,875
>> I appreciate the question, councilmember.

609
00:57:01,875 --> 00:57:06,212
we're seeing hundred of jobs in similar larger metro markets.

610
00:57:06,212 --> 00:57:10,417
these types of jobs range from things like our autonomous

611
00:57:10,417 --> 00:57:13,887
specialist who are there behind the wheel during the initial

612
00:57:13,887 --> 00:57:16,757
phases of testing and development.

613
00:57:16,757 --> 00:57:20,526
we have fleet managers. We have vehicle technicians.

614
00:57:20,526 --> 00:57:22,695
we have individuals responsible for cleaning and maintaining the

615
00:57:22,695 --> 00:57:27,300
vehicles, charging the vehicles. There's the broader automotive

616
00:57:27,300 --> 00:57:30,169
av ecosystem that builds around that.

617
00:57:30,169 --> 00:57:32,772
we will require suppliers for things like tire.

618
00:57:32,772 --> 00:57:36,509
we go through an incredible amount of tires traveling 24/7 a

619
00:57:36,509 --> 00:57:38,511
day. There's a whole ecosystem that's

620
00:57:38,511 --> 00:57:41,460
built around that. Those are are the types of jobs

621
00:57:41,460 --> 00:57:45,246
right now that we see being created.

622
00:57:45,251 --> 00:57:47,251
>> okay. Ms. Herdman.

623
00:57:52,958 --> 00:57:55,358
same question. For tesla.

624
00:57:55,995 --> 00:57:59,199
can you speak to about the number of employees you have in

625
00:57:59,199 --> 00:58:02,869
other regions of comparable size and what kinds of jobs do you

626
00:58:02,869 --> 00:58:05,805
bring in markets with av deployment?

627
00:58:05,805 --> 00:58:09,809
>> very similar to my colleague at waymo.

628
00:58:09,809 --> 00:58:14,347
we hire different types of positions to support fleet

629
00:58:14,347 --> 00:58:17,347
operationtors including specialists, remote operators,

630
00:58:18,618 --> 00:58:21,755
anything to do with a depot charging, cleaning.

631
00:58:21,755 --> 00:58:25,958
we're also unique in that we are the manufacture of the vehicle

632
00:58:25,958 --> 00:58:29,562
as well. We've hired thousands of people

633
00:58:29,562 --> 00:58:34,320
down in texas to support our manufacturing processes for our

634
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:38,232
robotaxi vehicles. We continue to be hiring.

635
00:58:38,771 --> 00:58:41,774
please look at our website. We're hiring a lot of jobs now.

636
00:58:41,774 --> 00:58:46,946
it's a very competitive market. >> where the wages for those

637
00:58:46,946 --> 00:58:51,146
positions generally seeking? >> all tesla employees for

638
00:58:51,317 --> 00:58:55,588
robotaxi are in-house. They get full benefits the

639
00:58:55,588 --> 00:58:58,257
salary depends on the specific position.

640
00:58:58,257 --> 00:59:03,657
they also get equity in the company as well.

641
00:59:04,196 --> 00:59:06,865
>> mr. Walsh, what about for waymo?

642
00:59:06,865 --> 00:59:12,265
what are the wages for those positions generally speaking?

643
00:59:12,672 --> 00:59:15,720
>> appreciate the question, councilmember.

644
00:59:15,750 --> 00:59:19,612
I think a lot of those wages are dependent on different

645
00:59:19,612 --> 00:59:23,282
classification of role and skills that are needed for those

646
00:59:23,282 --> 00:59:27,482
roles. There is a mixture full-time and

647
00:59:27,887 --> 00:59:31,487
in-house and through our partner vendors.

648
00:59:32,959 --> 00:59:38,359
>> okay. I guess how many -- one of the

649
00:59:42,502 --> 00:59:46,439
concerns is making sure that our workforce remains within the

650
00:59:46,439 --> 00:59:51,239
district and there are jobs available for them.

651
00:59:51,377 --> 00:59:54,113
I know some of the jobs are temporary.

652
00:59:54,113 --> 00:59:58,784
how many of them, the temporary jobs I guess the initial

653
00:59:58,784 --> 01:00:02,455
deployment versus individuals who end up with long-term jobs?

654
01:00:02,455 --> 01:00:03,923
what is does that transition look like?

655
01:00:03,923 --> 01:00:09,923
>> I appreciate the question. I think a lot our autonomous

656
01:00:11,970 --> 01:00:14,267
specialists involved with the beginning phase they transition

657
01:00:14,267 --> 01:00:16,669
into autonomous specialist trainer jobs.

658
01:00:16,669 --> 01:00:22,690
they are going training other autonomous specialist on fleed

659
01:00:22,809 --> 01:00:27,346
management role these are roles that give people an opportunity

660
01:00:27,346 --> 01:00:30,883
for career development. We've been really proud to be

661
01:00:30,883 --> 01:00:34,553
able to hire a majority of our current testing and autonomous

662
01:00:34,553 --> 01:00:36,955
specialist that are d.c. Residents.

663
01:00:36,955 --> 01:00:41,294
I think we're committed to continuing that local hiring.

664
01:00:41,294 --> 01:00:45,631
one thing I will say, councilmember, the size of our

665
01:00:45,631 --> 01:00:50,436
operation in here in d.c. Is going to dictate what the size

666
01:00:50,436 --> 01:00:53,773
of our workforce can be. Right now there's some

667
01:00:53,773 --> 01:00:57,309
discussion vehicle cap in the legislation in the larger and

668
01:00:57,309 --> 01:01:01,214
operation we can have here in d.c., bigger the footprint can

669
01:01:01,214 --> 01:01:04,383
be and more people we will need to support that service.

670
01:01:04,383 --> 01:01:07,720
eager to have that conversation with you and your colleagues.

671
01:01:07,720 --> 01:01:11,257
>> I appreciate that. As I mentioned, d.c. Is unique

672
01:01:11,257 --> 01:01:15,862
in its safety concerns. What have you all been doing

673
01:01:15,862 --> 01:01:20,266
during the testing phase to take about account the safety

674
01:01:20,266 --> 01:01:23,403
concerns? We are home of embassies and

675
01:01:23,403 --> 01:01:24,737
diplomats. Not only the president of the

676
01:01:24,737 --> 01:01:28,808
united states but also many congressmen and women.

677
01:01:28,808 --> 01:01:35,408
a lot of high security traffic as well as our roadways.

678
01:01:37,684 --> 01:01:41,505
what have you all been doing to take into account the unique

679
01:01:41,505 --> 01:01:44,241
security concerns that face the district of columbia?

680
01:01:44,241 --> 01:01:48,311
what can be done to address the unique security concerns that

681
01:01:48,311 --> 01:01:53,711
face the district of columbia as the capitol city?

682
01:01:53,917 --> 01:01:56,786
>> this has been part of our approach thinking ever isn't we

683
01:01:56,786 --> 01:02:01,586
entered this area and started driving with autonomous

684
01:02:07,797 --> 01:02:13,197
specialists here. It was a key part of our

685
01:02:14,738 --> 01:02:19,538
approach. What we have seen is that our

686
01:02:20,143 --> 01:02:23,112
software generalized extremely well to the district.

687
01:02:23,112 --> 01:02:27,551
there were great opportunities to observe these situations that

688
01:02:27,551 --> 01:02:32,351
you speak of, like motorcades, unplanned road closures,

689
01:02:33,190 --> 01:02:37,627
etcetera and validate that more than 200 million fully

690
01:02:37,627 --> 01:02:42,432
autonomous miles that we have seen in our other cities

691
01:02:42,432 --> 01:02:46,632
translated well here. We transparently released all

692
01:02:55,450 --> 01:02:56,847
data through nhtsa and the order.

693
01:02:56,847 --> 01:03:00,983
what we have demonstrated over a track record of

694
01:03:00,983 --> 01:03:05,783
220 million miles is a 94% reduction in serious injury

695
01:03:06,390 --> 01:03:09,259
collisions. The other thing that I would

696
01:03:09,259 --> 01:03:12,529
mention that I think is unique to this district and we've heard

697
01:03:12,529 --> 01:03:16,933
from other officials in our other districts is that the

698
01:03:16,933 --> 01:03:21,938
privacy that waymo vehicles offer is a key factor in them

699
01:03:21,938 --> 01:03:23,873
selecting their own transportation options.

700
01:03:23,873 --> 01:03:27,944
they are able to hold personal conversations in the vehicle and

701
01:03:27,944 --> 01:03:31,481
extend it in a work space. Because of the privacy that

702
01:03:31,481 --> 01:03:34,818
offers. I think that the waymo service

703
01:03:34,818 --> 01:03:38,321
is actually a uniquely suited to the needs of the district and we

704
01:03:38,321 --> 01:03:44,361
look forward to being able to demonstrate that through a scale

705
01:03:44,361 --> 01:03:48,561
then methodical deployment. >> what caused the autonomous

706
01:03:51,634 --> 01:03:56,390
vehicle to drive in the flooded roadway prompting recall of 35

707
01:03:56,390 --> 01:04:00,839
money vehicles? Could you talk for about nhtsa

708
01:04:03,746 --> 01:04:07,917
letter about ongoing issues which you are going to address

709
01:04:07,917 --> 01:04:09,917
nhtsa's concern. >> absolutely.

710
01:04:11,521 --> 01:04:15,570
couple of topics within that question.

711
01:04:15,570 --> 01:04:22,257
let me try to tackle them all. Nhtsa did release a letter

712
01:04:23,466 --> 01:04:26,936
emphasizing the importance of autonomous vehicles to comply

713
01:04:26,936 --> 01:04:29,806
with first responders and essentially keep them moving on

714
01:04:29,806 --> 01:04:32,942
roads. This is a position that we

715
01:04:32,942 --> 01:04:37,742
wholeheartedly agree with. It's something that we have

716
01:04:39,215 --> 01:04:41,951
espouses since we started as a company over 16 years ago.

717
01:04:41,951 --> 01:04:46,622
we've worked with nhtsa throughout that period to make

718
01:04:46,622 --> 01:04:49,225
sure they understand our technology and we're taking

719
01:04:49,225 --> 01:04:54,497
feedback from them throughout. The content letter was no

720
01:04:54,497 --> 01:04:57,330
surprise. Something we agree with.

721
01:04:57,330 --> 01:05:00,303
furthermore, just to calculate on the scale and size of

722
01:05:00,303 --> 01:05:05,103
operations in our level of performance, waymo interacts

723
01:05:06,109 --> 01:05:10,309
with 68,000 active emergency vehicles every single week.

724
01:05:10,580 --> 01:05:14,884
the overwhelming majority of those are complete nonevents.

725
01:05:14,884 --> 01:05:19,456
we're able to move to the side well ahead because we're paying

726
01:05:19,456 --> 01:05:22,324
attention, 360 degrees. We're able to reroute to get

727
01:05:22,324 --> 01:05:25,924
away from active emergency scenes, etcetera.

728
01:05:25,929 --> 01:05:28,798
the san francisco fire department went so far as to

729
01:05:28,798 --> 01:05:32,502
tweet out a video of waymo vehicle getting out of the way

730
01:05:32,502 --> 01:05:37,902
of active fire truck. There are going to opportunity

731
01:05:44,214 --> 01:05:45,948
for improvement. It's something we continue to

732
01:05:45,948 --> 01:05:48,551
work with the department and agencies and all the cities that

733
01:05:48,551 --> 01:05:52,588
we're at including at the federal level to make sure that

734
01:05:52,588 --> 01:05:54,691
we continue to improve. >> I'm over time.

735
01:05:54,691 --> 01:05:59,362
if you all have an -- I don't know if you did official

736
01:05:59,362 --> 01:06:02,599
response to nhtsa concern, if so, that's something you can

737
01:06:02,599 --> 01:06:06,636
share with the committee. >> we'll go ahead and follow-up

738
01:06:06,636 --> 01:06:09,772
with you, councilmember. Appreciate the question.

739
01:06:09,772 --> 01:06:12,242
>> thank you. >> thank you, councilmember.

740
01:06:12,242 --> 01:06:16,246
let me stick on safety for a little bit as well.

741
01:06:16,246 --> 01:06:19,916
basically, I think every av company we heard from touts

742
01:06:19,916 --> 01:06:23,720
safety record. We're going to be safer than

743
01:06:23,720 --> 01:06:26,890
human driver. Can you talk more about how you

744
01:06:26,890 --> 01:06:29,860
quantify the safety of the vehicle.

745
01:06:29,860 --> 01:06:35,260
how is it measured? Being safer than the worst

746
01:06:35,398 --> 01:06:39,200
driver on the road is not a very high bar.

747
01:06:39,200 --> 01:06:41,705
shouldn't it be safer for the safest driver?

748
01:06:41,705 --> 01:06:47,744
can you tuck -- talk about how you measure and quantify what

749
01:06:47,744 --> 01:06:51,414
safer means and who we measuring against?

750
01:06:51,414 --> 01:06:54,584
>> excellent question. Thank you for focusing on the

751
01:06:54,584 --> 01:06:57,200
holistic approach here. It's important to measure and

752
01:06:57,200 --> 01:07:01,424
give actual reports rather than looking at individual events.

753
01:07:01,424 --> 01:07:07,424
to get to your question, we've released our safety measurement

754
01:07:09,699 --> 01:07:13,899
methodology in a peer review white paper.

755
01:07:14,837 --> 01:07:16,705
I encourage you to get the answer there.

756
01:07:16,705 --> 01:07:20,910
we take extremely apples to apple approach in measuring our

757
01:07:20,910 --> 01:07:24,781
vehicle safety against human-driven miles in the same

758
01:07:24,781 --> 01:07:32,581
gee okay I if I -- geographies d the same type of roads.

759
01:07:34,324 --> 01:07:38,428
if you driving on one type of roadway, say a freeway and then

760
01:07:38,428 --> 01:07:42,265
measuring against the holistic baseline including roadways that

761
01:07:42,265 --> 01:07:47,665
include many more pedestrians or cyclists versus vehicles it's

762
01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:54,604
easy to produce a number that popurports to be much safer.

763
01:08:03,980 --> 01:08:04,766
which is why we've released that data.

764
01:08:04,766 --> 01:08:07,766
we released unredacted collision report.

765
01:08:11,373 --> 01:08:14,976
what we have demonstrated with that and all these numbers are

766
01:08:14,976 --> 01:08:18,576
available at waymo.com/safety/impact.

767
01:08:20,115 --> 01:08:24,719
we enjoy a 94% reduction in serious injury collisions.

768
01:08:24,719 --> 01:08:31,319
we also have numbers that show the performance of the waymo

769
01:08:31,993 --> 01:08:35,330
driver with regard to different collision types like within

770
01:08:35,330 --> 01:08:39,530
intersection or front to rear, head-to-head, etcetera.

771
01:08:40,735 --> 01:08:41,870
also, against vulnerable road users.

772
01:08:41,870 --> 01:08:45,540
which is an area we take very seriously.

773
01:08:45,540 --> 01:08:49,770
where we see some of our highest impact numbers.

774
01:08:49,770 --> 01:08:50,412
hopefully that shed some light on it.

775
01:08:50,412 --> 01:08:55,212
there's a lot more in the paper. T

776
01:08:57,953 --> 01:09:00,255
>> absolutely. Ms. Herdman, similar question

777
01:09:00,255 --> 01:09:03,759
how tesla evaluates this? Not testing the district in the

778
01:09:03,759 --> 01:09:07,359
same way. How is tesla measuring?

779
01:09:07,962 --> 01:09:12,233
is it similar or comparable. >> it's very similar.

780
01:09:12,233 --> 01:09:14,936
we have to measure against human benchmarks.

781
01:09:14,936 --> 01:09:16,905
otherwise everything is just a imaginary.

782
01:09:16,905 --> 01:09:21,909
we have that collision reporting done by the u.s. Department of

783
01:09:21,909 --> 01:09:24,112
transportation. We can take collisions per miles

784
01:09:24,112 --> 01:09:30,184
traveled in our robotaxi fleet and produce that data as well.

785
01:09:30,184 --> 01:09:34,756
just like my colleague as well, we transparently submit

786
01:09:34,756 --> 01:09:39,556
unredacted reports to the national highway traffic safety

787
01:09:49,700 --> 01:09:51,700
administration. >> thank you.

788
01:10:06,200 --> 01:10:08,456
following this thread little bit longer, there was a forum about

789
01:10:08,456 --> 01:10:12,694
a week ago by families for safe streets on autonomous vehicles.

790
01:10:12,694 --> 01:10:19,100
during the forum, one of the folks kind of challenged about

791
01:10:19,100 --> 01:10:24,439
what level of safety is a fair expectation or demand for

792
01:10:24,439 --> 01:10:27,776
autonomous vehicles? They were talking about specific

793
01:10:27,776 --> 01:10:31,179
numbers. Is it -- should we be saying

794
01:10:31,179 --> 01:10:35,583
autonomous vehicle is ten times safer than humans?

795
01:10:35,583 --> 01:10:40,383
should be 100 times safer. You giving numbers saying 94%

796
01:10:41,456 --> 01:10:44,580
fewer collisions. Is there a measurement or a

797
01:10:44,580 --> 01:10:49,464
metric that exists to say an av is ten time safer than a human

798
01:10:49,464 --> 01:10:52,867
driver? What will be a reasonable

799
01:10:52,867 --> 01:10:56,538
threshold to hold av's to? >> it's very interesting

800
01:10:56,538 --> 01:10:58,339
question. It's not something that we've

801
01:10:58,339 --> 01:11:01,142
considered deeply. Maybe some of the considerings

802
01:11:01,142 --> 01:11:05,880
that you might incorporate as you consider the path forward

803
01:11:05,880 --> 01:11:09,484
here. At waymo, we have safety built

804
01:11:09,484 --> 01:11:11,819
into every aspect of our culture.

805
01:11:11,819 --> 01:11:16,230
one of the things that we talk about internally is the safety

806
01:11:16,230 --> 01:11:18,560
is urgent. 40,000 people die on our

807
01:11:18,560 --> 01:11:22,160
roadways every single year. 1.2 million internationally.

808
01:11:25,299 --> 01:11:29,170
it is the number 14 leading cause of death amongst people.

809
01:11:29,170 --> 01:11:35,430
it's a number two leading cause of death amongst young people.

810
01:11:35,430 --> 01:11:41,643
what waymo is offering is a 94% effective cure to that public

811
01:11:43,251 --> 01:11:46,851
health crisis. Now, it's not 100% cure.

812
01:11:47,355 --> 01:11:51,192
there's still 6% left there. We're working hard on improving

813
01:11:51,192 --> 01:11:54,792
that. But if you're offered 94% cure

814
01:11:54,929 --> 01:11:59,667
to that number 14 leading cause of death, I think that the poach

815
01:11:59,667 --> 01:12:04,773
should be to try to take that as soon as possible.

816
01:12:04,773 --> 01:12:09,277
today, right now, somebody going to experience untime it will

817
01:12:09,277 --> 01:12:11,812
death, serious injury collision that's going to keep them from

818
01:12:11,812 --> 01:12:15,350
being able to go to their job, play with their kid.

819
01:12:15,350 --> 01:12:18,352
it's going to change their life. If we have the opportunity to

820
01:12:18,352 --> 01:12:21,289
prevent one of those, if we have the opportunity to prevent

821
01:12:21,289 --> 01:12:24,826
10,000 of those in the future by acting faster, I think that's an

822
01:12:24,826 --> 01:12:29,260
opportunity to we should take. >> all right.

823
01:12:29,764 --> 01:12:33,964
devil's advocate. When we think about changing

824
01:12:35,350 --> 01:12:40,909
behavior to have safer driving. I heard folks say, all right,

825
01:12:40,909 --> 01:12:43,178
from an impairment standpoint,s there a great option.

826
01:12:43,178 --> 01:12:49,500
someone has gone out. They had too much to drink.

827
01:12:49,500 --> 01:12:52,320
they are impaired. They can get home this way.

828
01:12:52,320 --> 01:12:55,390
most impaired drivers are driving because they don't think

829
01:12:55,390 --> 01:12:58,593
they are impaired. Folks will go to a bar,

830
01:12:58,593 --> 01:13:01,730
restaurant, drink too much, they get back in their car and drive

831
01:13:01,730 --> 01:13:04,366
home. Today, they have the option in

832
01:13:04,366 --> 01:13:08,870
d.c. At least, I can call an uber or lyft right now.

833
01:13:08,870 --> 01:13:11,206
the cynic would say, are you going to change behavior?

834
01:13:11,206 --> 01:13:14,676
to the 17-year-old kid who's going to make really dumb

835
01:13:14,676 --> 01:13:19,147
decision on a roadway, they can make a different choice.

836
01:13:19,147 --> 01:13:24,886
how do you help answer that cynic say, I don't know if we'll

837
01:13:24,886 --> 01:13:26,688
get that impaired driver off the road.

838
01:13:26,688 --> 01:13:30,158
they are choosing to get behind the wheel for little bit of

839
01:13:30,158 --> 01:13:33,561
variety of reasons. They are making that choice

840
01:13:33,561 --> 01:13:36,564
today. Why would they choose to get a

841
01:13:36,564 --> 01:13:38,990
waymo? >> it's an excellent question.

842
01:13:38,990 --> 01:13:41,669
we approached this through a study where we worked with the

843
01:13:41,669 --> 01:13:45,869
city of chandler, arizona. Examining accident reports,

844
01:13:49,310 --> 01:13:52,313
recreated every single fatal collision that have occurred

845
01:13:52,313 --> 01:13:57,786
over a certain period there. Then we used our extensive

846
01:13:57,786 --> 01:14:01,266
simulation capabilities to replace the actors in each of

847
01:14:01,266 --> 01:14:06,538
those accidents with the waymo driver to see how well it would

848
01:14:06,538 --> 01:14:09,875
performed. We did that both for the primary

849
01:14:09,875 --> 01:14:11,643
actor. Essentially the actor that was

850
01:14:11,643 --> 01:14:16,615
cause of that accident. We also did it for the secondary

851
01:14:16,615 --> 01:14:20,152
vehicles in that collision. What we found when the waymo

852
01:14:20,152 --> 01:14:23,880
driver replaced the primary actor, 100% of those collisions

853
01:14:23,880 --> 01:14:27,288
were avoided. When we replaced the vehicle,

854
01:14:29,895 --> 01:14:35,502
more than 85% was avoided. The waymo driver is able to

855
01:14:35,502 --> 01:14:39,571
prevent not only the primary cause of the collision, say that

856
01:14:39,571 --> 01:14:42,907
person making a better decision because waymo is available in

857
01:14:42,907 --> 01:14:45,811
the district. But also the secondary

858
01:14:45,811 --> 01:14:48,247
collisions as well. We have videos of what this

859
01:14:48,247 --> 01:14:51,518
looks like on our website. Waymo.com/safety.

860
01:14:51,518 --> 01:14:57,389
you can see the waymo driver swerving out of the way of red

861
01:14:57,389 --> 01:15:00,989
light runners or potential t-bone collisions.

862
01:15:01,793 --> 01:15:04,396
drivers aren't just paying attention.

863
01:15:04,396 --> 01:15:07,132
that will be level of safety that the district would enjoy.

864
01:15:07,132 --> 01:15:12,404
even if we're not convincing that potential drunk driver to

865
01:15:12,404 --> 01:15:15,873
take waymo instead of driving home.

866
01:15:15,873 --> 01:15:18,944
>> ms. Herdman? >> a lot of this burden on the

867
01:15:18,944 --> 01:15:22,614
manufactures who incentivize the behavior to call an autonomous

868
01:15:22,614 --> 01:15:24,649
vehicle. The way that tesla think about

869
01:15:24,649 --> 01:15:28,200
this is by providing the most affordable option for our

870
01:15:28,200 --> 01:15:31,556
vehicles. Our goal to get the cost per

871
01:15:31,556 --> 01:15:34,626
mile down to 30 cents per mile to the customer as we scale.

872
01:15:34,626 --> 01:15:37,763
you can see why I have concerns about the 15-cent per mile

873
01:15:37,763 --> 01:15:44,436
number since that is half of what we would be charge as a

874
01:15:44,436 --> 01:15:49,236
fare per mile. >> council man lewis george I

875
01:15:49,841 --> 01:15:55,313
have couple of more questions. One of the things that I think

876
01:15:55,313 --> 01:16:00,519
we've heard around arguments for the av driver is that we can

877
01:16:00,519 --> 01:16:05,523
program it to be safer. Is there any scenario where we

878
01:16:05,523 --> 01:16:09,861
would say that you can program an autonomous vehicle to exceed

879
01:16:09,861 --> 01:16:15,261
the speed limit? It's not 5 miles per hour over.

880
01:16:16,401 --> 01:16:19,738
it's not two miles over. The limit is the limit.

881
01:16:19,738 --> 01:16:22,607
do we program our autonomous vehicles to operate at the speed

882
01:16:22,607 --> 01:16:28,607
limit and no greater? >> that is the way that waymos

883
01:16:29,881 --> 01:16:33,170
are programmed. Waymos are designed to drive

884
01:16:33,170 --> 01:16:35,754
safely. That includes speed limits.

885
01:16:35,754 --> 01:16:40,224
they can for very brief periods, exceed the speed limit only if

886
01:16:40,224 --> 01:16:42,940
they are attempting to avoid a collision.

887
01:16:42,940 --> 01:16:45,863
that would be the only instance in which that occurs.

888
01:16:45,863 --> 01:16:49,463
that's waymo's approach. Different autonomous vehicle

889
01:16:49,601 --> 01:16:52,971
companies might take a different approach.

890
01:16:52,971 --> 01:16:55,240
>> ms. Herdman. >> our vehicles are designed to

891
01:16:55,240 --> 01:16:58,777
comply with local traffic law. The vehicle can go faster than

892
01:16:58,777 --> 01:17:03,480
the speed limit in the event of a safety critical situation as

893
01:17:03,480 --> 01:17:07,719
well as to keep pace with the traffic surrounding it.

894
01:17:07,719 --> 01:17:11,323
we found that there are actually additional incidents in av

895
01:17:11,323 --> 01:17:13,792
vehicle is going too far below the speed eliminate.

896
01:17:13,792 --> 01:17:18,196
we've done a lot of testing with speed.

897
01:17:18,196 --> 01:17:24,136
>> okay, why would you allow it to go over the speed limit?

898
01:17:24,136 --> 01:17:26,938
I understand the safety. That makes sense.

899
01:17:26,938 --> 01:17:31,476
flow of traffic, whole bunch of people just driving dangerously

900
01:17:31,476 --> 01:17:34,880
above the speed limit. >> it won't necessarily mimic

901
01:17:34,880 --> 01:17:37,716
the speed that the other drivers are going.

902
01:17:37,716 --> 01:17:41,953
be within a specific margin between the traffic law with the

903
01:17:41,953 --> 01:17:45,357
spite limit posted as well as what's going on around behind

904
01:17:45,357 --> 01:17:49,895
the vehicle and sides of the vehicle in the event it needs to

905
01:17:49,895 --> 01:17:51,895
swerve. >> got it.

906
01:17:53,310 --> 01:17:58,837
I feel the evasive maneuver, the safety response are quick

907
01:17:58,837 --> 01:18:01,306
momentary piece, I can wrap my head around that one.

908
01:18:01,306 --> 01:18:04,176
I feel pretty strongly we set a speed limit for a reason.

909
01:18:04,176 --> 01:18:08,976
that's the limit. We can't go over that.

910
01:18:09,781 --> 01:18:13,318
similarly, I had a lot of conversation around how do you

911
01:18:13,318 --> 01:18:16,988
manage curbside, pick up and dropoff, but also, you can't

912
01:18:16,988 --> 01:18:22,600
park in a bike lane. That's the bike lane's.

913
01:18:22,600 --> 01:18:27,866
is the programming such that the vehicle cannot stop in impede

914
01:18:27,866 --> 01:18:32,666
the travel within a marked designated bike lane?

915
01:18:33,872 --> 01:18:38,900
>> yeah. I think the discussion of curb

916
01:18:38,900 --> 01:18:42,680
usage is interesting one, dense urban environment like the

917
01:18:42,680 --> 01:18:45,680
district. The waymo vehicle prioritizes

918
01:18:45,817 --> 01:18:52,417
safe and compliant roadway usage including the use of curb space.

919
01:18:52,424 --> 01:18:57,280
generally, I think that I know that the council has opinions

920
01:18:57,280 --> 01:19:00,331
about how to collaborate with autonomous vehicle players.

921
01:19:00,331 --> 01:19:03,435
that's a conversation we are excited to have with you.

922
01:19:03,435 --> 01:19:06,705
so that we can understand the district's needs as well as make

923
01:19:06,705 --> 01:19:12,243
sure that we're programming our vehicles to be able to take the

924
01:19:12,243 --> 01:19:17,115
most advantage curb days. Get people safely and rapidly

925
01:19:17,115 --> 01:19:19,851
where they need to get to. >> thank for the question.

926
01:19:19,851 --> 01:19:25,256
the tesla ads is designed to never stop in a bike lane.

927
01:19:25,256 --> 01:19:28,659
curbs are super important for a variety of reasons particularly,

928
01:19:28,659 --> 01:19:31,797
for blind and visually impaired customers.

929
01:19:31,797 --> 01:19:35,867
we need to be able to make sure that pick-ups and dropoffs are

930
01:19:35,867 --> 01:19:40,105
perfect essentially and be able to give that guidance in app

931
01:19:40,105 --> 01:19:43,410
where vehicle is located. Another really interesting

932
01:19:43,410 --> 01:19:45,610
conversation that we're having with other jurisdictions is pick

933
01:19:45,610 --> 01:19:50,410
up and dropoff locations for extremely busy areas.

934
01:19:58,623 --> 01:20:00,492
>> curbside management is something that is really

935
01:20:00,492 --> 01:20:05,697
important whether it's our av conversation or anybody else.

936
01:20:05,697 --> 01:20:09,372
we're going to continue to follow this after the hearing,

937
01:20:09,372 --> 01:20:12,972
obviously. I think there's a healthy

938
01:20:15,178 --> 01:20:17,981
discussion to have. When take uber or lyft and it's

939
01:20:17,981 --> 01:20:22,786
drooping me off at my house, it's not unreasonable thing it

940
01:20:22,786 --> 01:20:25,589
will stop in the roadway and let the passengers out and the

941
01:20:25,589 --> 01:20:27,257
driver makes decision around that.

942
01:20:27,257 --> 01:20:29,860
I don't believe it should stop in a bike lane.

943
01:20:29,860 --> 01:20:32,930
I do believe there's instances where there's a reasonable

944
01:20:32,930 --> 01:20:37,934
standard of I do that in uber and lyft, that's not

945
01:20:37,934 --> 01:20:42,539
unreasonable expectation that I will be able to walk out in the

946
01:20:42,539 --> 01:20:47,877
vehicle or not. I do think safety around not

947
01:20:47,877 --> 01:20:50,130
blocking a bike lane is going to be very important.

948
01:20:50,130 --> 01:20:52,282
for multiple stakeholders in the district as well.

949
01:20:52,282 --> 01:20:56,219
I can also understand we got to find a reasonableness of when a

950
01:20:56,219 --> 01:20:58,487
vehicle is will drop me off, for example.

951
01:20:58,487 --> 01:21:03,287
outside my door, which is not unreasonable expectation.

952
01:21:04,427 --> 01:21:08,627
I gone well over councilwoman lewis george.

953
01:21:10,366 --> 01:21:13,837
>> I want to talk more about infrastructure and how you plan

954
01:21:13,837 --> 01:21:17,173
to manage the specific way the district is different from other

955
01:21:17,173 --> 01:21:18,941
jurisdictions. These questions are primarily

956
01:21:18,941 --> 01:21:23,647
for the folks from waymo wells ms. Herdman.

957
01:21:23,647 --> 01:21:27,584
all are welcome to respond. In preparation for deployment,

958
01:21:27,584 --> 01:21:33,584
what were will your companies do to set up infrastructure.

959
01:21:33,923 --> 01:21:36,926
will will you look to set up depots.

960
01:21:36,926 --> 01:21:41,131
I'm assuming those will be sites where job with district

961
01:21:41,131 --> 01:21:44,131
residents primarily located? >> great question.

962
01:21:44,133 --> 01:21:48,304
right now, as I said, we have made initial investments in

963
01:21:48,304 --> 01:21:52,408
wards 5 and 7. Those are for both service

964
01:21:52,408 --> 01:21:54,810
depots as well as charging facilities.

965
01:21:54,810 --> 01:22:00,830
I we're excited to see those become open in the future.

966
01:22:00,830 --> 01:22:05,387
those will be where district residents will be able to have

967
01:22:05,387 --> 01:22:08,987
carrier opportunities. There's shorter wait time.

968
01:22:18,568 --> 01:22:21,439
there's more prevalence of waymos coming in and out of the

969
01:22:21,439 --> 01:22:24,240
depo. For ward 7, we're excited about

970
01:22:24,240 --> 01:22:28,445
the possibility that those residents will have unfettered

971
01:22:28,445 --> 01:22:30,846
access to waymo. Which is a pretty stark

972
01:22:30,846 --> 01:22:34,446
departure from their current transportation options.

973
01:22:36,852 --> 01:22:38,254
>> ms. Herdman. >> thank you for the question,

974
01:22:38,254 --> 01:22:41,557
councilmember. Outside of our hiring for our

975
01:22:41,557 --> 01:22:45,528
data collection operations in d.c., we have not made any hard

976
01:22:45,528 --> 01:22:48,197
investments in the community yet.

977
01:22:48,197 --> 01:22:50,666
transparently, it's kind of all about whether we'll be able to

978
01:22:50,666 --> 01:22:53,603
come here. This is the purpose for this

979
01:22:53,603 --> 01:22:56,500
conversation. When there's a clear deployment

980
01:22:56,500 --> 01:22:59,742
pathway for commercial operation that's when you would see tesla

981
01:22:59,742 --> 01:23:02,780
make investments in the community.

982
01:23:02,780 --> 01:23:05,615
>> got it. How do you all expect this

983
01:23:05,615 --> 01:23:08,885
infrastructure to impact our electrical grid capacity?

984
01:23:08,885 --> 01:23:12,155
rising electricity rates are a top of mind concern for our

985
01:23:12,155 --> 01:23:15,910
residents and for us. As leaders.

986
01:23:15,910 --> 01:23:19,891
understanding these impacts are really critical for us.

987
01:23:23,499 --> 01:23:26,936
>> thank you. Yes, as you know, tesla

988
01:23:26,936 --> 01:23:31,975
manufactures a range of products outside of vehicles including

989
01:23:31,975 --> 01:23:34,643
solar equipment and utility scaled batteries.

990
01:23:34,643 --> 01:23:36,713
we think about this question a lot.

991
01:23:36,713 --> 01:23:41,918
we need to be very diligent about what times of day we are

992
01:23:41,918 --> 01:23:46,322
charging to avoid high usage times during the day as well as

993
01:23:46,322 --> 01:23:50,727
investing in our super charger network, tesla operates the

994
01:23:50,727 --> 01:23:54,327
largest charging network in the world.

995
01:23:55,532 --> 01:23:58,401
we understand that those continued investments are really

996
01:23:58,401 --> 01:24:00,804
important. I spoke with your office prior

997
01:24:00,804 --> 01:24:04,730
to this hearing and I'm going to come in and talk to you about

998
01:24:04,730 --> 01:24:09,473
our battery management systems. So we can chat further.

999
01:24:10,880 --> 01:24:16,280
>> waymo is also proud to operate a 100% battery electric

1000
01:24:17,720 --> 01:24:20,720
fleet. As america continues its

1001
01:24:21,230 --> 01:24:23,360
transformation towards electrification, the types of

1002
01:24:23,360 --> 01:24:26,129
questions you asked are coming up.

1003
01:24:26,129 --> 01:24:30,330
we've had extensive experience doing this in other metros that

1004
01:24:30,330 --> 01:24:34,971
we've been operating in. We also recently introduced a

1005
01:24:34,971 --> 01:24:39,142
program that takes the batteries out of the vehicles that we have

1006
01:24:39,142 --> 01:24:46,117
retired to add to the grid and supplement grid level storage so

1007
01:24:46,117 --> 01:24:49,852
we can reduce usage during peak times.

1008
01:24:49,852 --> 01:24:55,252
this is a challenge broadly that the industry, automobile

1009
01:24:55,391 --> 01:24:56,992
industry, not just waymo is facing.

1010
01:24:56,992 --> 01:25:00,463
we look forward to working with you and your office to

1011
01:25:00,463 --> 01:25:04,300
understand d.c.'s unique challenges and make sure that we

1012
01:25:04,300 --> 01:25:08,137
are building towards that more electrified future that we're

1013
01:25:08,137 --> 01:25:12,942
all pushing for. >> how can your companies -- I'm

1014
01:25:12,942 --> 01:25:15,845
hearing a lot about how you can plan to offset, can you speak

1015
01:25:15,845 --> 01:25:21,284
more about the way the grid itself is impacted and how your

1016
01:25:21,284 --> 01:25:27,900
companies can offset the cost and how you all can helps in the

1017
01:25:27,900 --> 01:25:30,690
district meet our clean energy goals?

1018
01:25:34,230 --> 01:25:37,300
>> because we do not have commercial operations in the

1019
01:25:37,300 --> 01:25:40,900
district, I'm not extremely familiar --

1020
01:25:42,905 --> 01:25:46,505
[ indiscernible ] >> I can't speak to that.

1021
01:25:46,576 --> 01:25:50,847
I'm happy to follow-up with your office and give some more

1022
01:25:50,847 --> 01:25:54,383
information on that. >> I appreciate it.

1023
01:25:54,383 --> 01:25:56,454
>> do you mind if I add something.

1024
01:25:56,454 --> 01:25:59,522
this is harry. I think getting back to

1025
01:25:59,522 --> 01:26:04,661
something you said before. Under the current version of the

1026
01:26:04,661 --> 01:26:08,898
bill, network you want a world where the manufacturer also

1027
01:26:08,898 --> 01:26:13,980
operates the fleet. By necessity, that means

1028
01:26:16,405 --> 01:26:18,678
multiple depot. Everyone needs their own depot

1029
01:26:18,678 --> 01:26:21,678
pulling from the grid individually.

1030
01:26:22,482 --> 01:26:27,354
hybrid network, you might have two or three depots but there's

1031
01:26:27,354 --> 01:26:29,756
multiple companies pulling from the depot.

1032
01:26:29,756 --> 01:26:34,556
you're reducing footprint and potentially reducing your grid

1033
01:26:35,295 --> 01:26:37,764
usage. Which is long-term benefit

1034
01:26:37,764 --> 01:26:41,364
there. >> thank you, I appreciate that.

1035
01:26:43,370 --> 01:26:46,573
mr. Walsh, thanks to speaking to locate in wards 5 and 7.

1036
01:26:46,573 --> 01:26:50,110
I wonder how see that impacting traffic patterns.

1037
01:26:50,110 --> 01:26:54,781
the roadways that run through these wards are extremely

1038
01:26:54,781 --> 01:26:56,783
congested and represent high traffic areas.

1039
01:26:56,783 --> 01:27:01,583
how about waymo adding vehicles change these patterns.

1040
01:27:04,658 --> 01:27:07,658
wha >> I appreciate the question.

1041
01:27:09,730 --> 01:27:13,467
councilmember, long before we finalized any specific site

1042
01:27:13,467 --> 01:27:16,403
location, we are going through an extensive review process of

1043
01:27:16,403 --> 01:27:20,339
not only the site but the surrounding community.

1044
01:27:20,339 --> 01:27:23,276
traffic assessments are being conducted well before we move

1045
01:27:23,276 --> 01:27:27,213
forward with our plans. I think right now, of the sites

1046
01:27:27,213 --> 01:27:31,685
that we are moving forward on, we feel very confident that the

1047
01:27:31,685 --> 01:27:35,555
addition of the waymo facilities will not negatively contribute

1048
01:27:35,555 --> 01:27:38,910
to traffic congestion. The other thing that we have

1049
01:27:38,910 --> 01:27:42,362
implemented in our facilities is our staff are constantly aware

1050
01:27:42,362 --> 01:27:45,632
making sure the flow of vehicles is smooth and efficient.

1051
01:27:45,632 --> 01:27:48,367
certainly we don't want those vehicles blocking any of those

1052
01:27:48,367 --> 01:27:50,170
street. If you look at the facilities

1053
01:27:50,170 --> 01:27:53,873
that we have in other market, you will see that these

1054
01:27:53,873 --> 01:27:57,310
facilities are fairly seemless operations and so, the other

1055
01:27:57,310 --> 01:28:03,316
last thing I'll say, as those facilities begin to near further

1056
01:28:03,316 --> 01:28:08,387
stages of completion, the waymo team will be interacting with

1057
01:28:08,387 --> 01:28:11,570
the surrounding communities engaging with them so they have

1058
01:28:11,570 --> 01:28:13,527
an understanding what these facility look like.

1059
01:28:13,527 --> 01:28:17,397
lastly and probably most importantly, what can those

1060
01:28:17,397 --> 01:28:20,667
members of the public and local businesses do if they need to

1061
01:28:20,667 --> 01:28:22,469
contact waymo about any concerns.

1062
01:28:22,469 --> 01:28:26,406
looking forward to engaging with the communities deeply in coming

1063
01:28:26,406 --> 01:28:29,943
weeks or months. >> thank you, I appreciate that.

1064
01:28:29,943 --> 01:28:34,881
I wanted to -- the district is also unique in such a bounded

1065
01:28:34,881 --> 01:28:37,884
area. We are surrounded by multiple

1066
01:28:37,884 --> 01:28:40,353
states, counties and cities on all sides.

1067
01:28:40,353 --> 01:28:44,825
as we think about this legislation, how do you see the

1068
01:28:44,825 --> 01:28:47,561
laws in those jurisdiction impacting employment?

1069
01:28:47,561 --> 01:28:51,631
do you expect the employment here to align with employment in

1070
01:28:51,631 --> 01:28:53,631
neighboring jurisdictions? >> yes.

1071
01:28:53,967 --> 01:28:57,370
really good question. I think the regional aspect of

1072
01:28:57,370 --> 01:29:00,640
this has been part of the conversation from the early days

1073
01:29:00,640 --> 01:29:03,843
two years ago. Where things stand now I think

1074
01:29:03,843 --> 01:29:08,581
that the district is in position to be a leader on this subject.

1075
01:29:08,581 --> 01:29:12,385
should this legislation move forward, waymo, there are

1076
01:29:12,385 --> 01:29:15,722
initial service will be operating within the confines of

1077
01:29:15,722 --> 01:29:17,724
the district. Virginia and maryland are in

1078
01:29:17,724 --> 01:29:20,927
different stages of their sort of legislative development on

1079
01:29:20,927 --> 01:29:24,197
this policy area. While we're incredibly proud to

1080
01:29:24,197 --> 01:29:29,670
be able to hopefully be the first av operator, we understand

1081
01:29:29,670 --> 01:29:34,470
the realities of ride, hail and transportation patterns.

1082
01:29:41,881 --> 01:29:44,684
we are actively involved in conversations in virginia and

1083
01:29:44,684 --> 01:29:47,553
maryland. I'm very optimistic that both

1084
01:29:47,553 --> 01:29:51,291
state legislatures will act in 2027 to catch up with the

1085
01:29:51,291 --> 01:29:55,762
district and then eventually we will have some type of broad

1086
01:29:55,762 --> 01:30:00,701
policy across the dmv region so that people can use av's to get

1087
01:30:00,701 --> 01:30:03,701
all of their destinations. >> okay.

1088
01:30:04,438 --> 01:30:08,508
my question really is like do we have to move as a region given

1089
01:30:08,508 --> 01:30:16,908
the unique nature of the city and what -- can one piece of the

1090
01:30:17,250 --> 01:30:20,386
region move forward without the other pieces staying in line?

1091
01:30:20,386 --> 01:30:23,560
or is this we have to move together as a region on this

1092
01:30:23,560 --> 01:30:28,128
issue for it to be successful? >> I would say that I think the

1093
01:30:28,128 --> 01:30:32,733
district is well poised to continue this legislation.

1094
01:30:32,733 --> 01:30:35,680
I know there's going to be future conversations over the

1095
01:30:35,680 --> 01:30:36,936
summer. I think washingtonians are

1096
01:30:36,936 --> 01:30:39,205
excited about having waymo as an option.

1097
01:30:39,205 --> 01:30:41,808
we're certainly ready to make the investment.

1098
01:30:41,808 --> 01:30:45,612
I would not want to see the district wait for the other

1099
01:30:45,612 --> 01:30:49,950
jurisdictions to act. I think that you all have taken

1100
01:30:49,950 --> 01:30:54,150
a strong interest in this policy area.

1101
01:30:56,722 --> 01:31:01,227
>> I am currently the chair of office of disability rights,

1102
01:31:01,227 --> 01:31:04,764
disability services. I do want to end on questions

1103
01:31:04,764 --> 01:31:07,900
around accessibility when deployment takes place.

1104
01:31:07,900 --> 01:31:13,774
how will your companies ensure equal access to those services?

1105
01:31:13,774 --> 01:31:20,179
what will your deployment plan will be to ensure services are

1106
01:31:20,179 --> 01:31:25,520
available for disabled residents from our deaf, deaf/blind and

1107
01:31:25,520 --> 01:31:28,789
hard of hearing community. How have you been able to meet,

1108
01:31:28,789 --> 01:31:32,526
you will hear from our odr director.

1109
01:31:32,526 --> 01:31:34,461
we will hear from them at the end.

1110
01:31:34,461 --> 01:31:40,266
I want to get a sense how you all can and will respond to

1111
01:31:40,266 --> 01:31:44,466
accessibility issues especially for our disabled residents

1112
01:31:44,604 --> 01:31:48,804
across the district? >> I appreciate the question,

1113
01:31:49,409 --> 01:31:51,544
councilmember. You will hear a lot from

1114
01:31:51,544 --> 01:31:56,616
individuals today who are from the disabled community that use

1115
01:31:56,616 --> 01:31:59,352
waymo and using to use waymo here in district.

1116
01:31:59,352 --> 01:32:02,823
I don't want to get ahead of them.

1117
01:32:02,823 --> 01:32:06,960
we have long developed our product in partnership with

1118
01:32:06,960 --> 01:32:08,495
members of the disability community.

1119
01:32:08,495 --> 01:32:12,131
I think particularly, those in the low vision or blind

1120
01:32:12,131 --> 01:32:14,634
community. Use our service every single

1121
01:32:14,634 --> 01:32:17,637
day. Quite frankly, it represents the

1122
01:32:17,637 --> 01:32:22,175
first time they have had fully independent mobility.

1123
01:32:22,175 --> 01:32:26,980
I am certainly personally incredibly proud of that product

1124
01:32:26,980 --> 01:32:28,983
that fact we can give that mobility to people.

1125
01:32:28,983 --> 01:32:36,123
in the cities that we operate in, in several cities, we offer

1126
01:32:36,123 --> 01:32:40,194
fully accessible option. We look to future cities, we're

1127
01:32:40,194 --> 01:32:44,798
actively trying to figure out what those options will look

1128
01:32:44,798 --> 01:32:45,933
like. Currently, we are a technology

1129
01:32:45,933 --> 01:32:49,533
company. We're in active discussions with

1130
01:32:49,737 --> 01:32:53,674
vehicle manufactures to identify future vehicle platforms that

1131
01:32:53,674 --> 01:33:00,274
may meet better needs. I think serving all rider is a

1132
01:33:00,481 --> 01:33:02,716
priority for waymo. >> thank you for the question.

1133
01:33:02,716 --> 01:33:06,521
this is a super important part for tesla.

1134
01:33:06,521 --> 01:33:11,358
for our current fleet using tesla model y vehicles, there

1135
01:33:11,358 --> 01:33:14,958
are many accessibility considerations for blind,

1136
01:33:16,230 --> 01:33:19,230
visually impaired stokes folks. --

1137
01:33:19,634 --> 01:33:23,234
folks. We're in development for purpose

1138
01:33:25,306 --> 01:33:26,607
built wheelchair accessible autonomous vehicle.

1139
01:33:26,607 --> 01:33:30,712
we know that paratransit can be difficult.

1140
01:33:30,712 --> 01:33:34,315
people confined to wheelchairs should be able to move around

1141
01:33:34,315 --> 01:33:36,918
freely. That's an active product being

1142
01:33:36,918 --> 01:33:42,318
built by tesla in texas. >> thank you, chairman, allen

1143
01:33:42,390 --> 01:33:46,590
will I will follow-up for additional questions.

1144
01:33:49,331 --> 01:33:53,434
I do appreciate the expertise. >> thank you very much

1145
01:33:53,434 --> 01:33:54,735
councilmember. One of the great things about

1146
01:33:54,735 --> 01:33:57,405
having a smart colleague, they ask a lot of the same questions

1147
01:33:57,405 --> 01:34:02,677
I had prepped. I will pull that thread little

1148
01:34:02,677 --> 01:34:08,770
bit further. For a d.c. Taxi fleet, for

1149
01:34:09,416 --> 01:34:13,888
example, we recognized we did not have enough wheelchair

1150
01:34:13,888 --> 01:34:17,758
accessible taxi cabs. We have to use the power of our

1151
01:34:17,758 --> 01:34:20,829
legislation to say this is how many we have to have in our

1152
01:34:20,829 --> 01:34:22,797
fleet. I will probably hear from folks

1153
01:34:22,797 --> 01:34:27,101
who say, even that's not enough. We don't hit the threshold that

1154
01:34:27,101 --> 01:34:30,805
even is in law. We put it there to start

1155
01:34:30,805 --> 01:34:36,805
creating the incentive and little bit of caret and stick.

1156
01:34:51,392 --> 01:34:55,262
I appreciate the question. From the waymo perspective, we

1157
01:34:55,262 --> 01:34:59,867
are a technology company. We do not develop our own and

1158
01:34:59,867 --> 01:35:02,871
manufacture our own vehicle. From a certain part of this, we

1159
01:35:02,871 --> 01:35:06,974
are restricted by the vehicle platforms that we can source.

1160
01:35:06,974 --> 01:35:09,944
to date, it's my understanding we have not been able to

1161
01:35:09,944 --> 01:35:14,148
identify an electric vehicle platform that is fully

1162
01:35:14,148 --> 01:35:17,785
wheelchair accessible while also meeting the very unique

1163
01:35:17,785 --> 01:35:21,756
specifications that we need to retrofit that vehicle with our

1164
01:35:21,756 --> 01:35:25,626
technology. I don't want that to sound like

1165
01:35:25,626 --> 01:35:27,762
a cop out. I don't think that is.

1166
01:35:27,762 --> 01:35:30,431
we trying to find that vehicle platform.

1167
01:35:30,431 --> 01:35:34,102
what I do think there's opportunity here, the waymo

1168
01:35:34,102 --> 01:35:37,304
vehicles may be able to take other rides, for example within

1169
01:35:37,304 --> 01:35:41,977
the pair tra transit program that do not require wheelchair

1170
01:35:41,977 --> 01:35:46,247
vehicles that can lessen the burden on the fleet wheelchair

1171
01:35:46,247 --> 01:35:49,751
vehicles that do exist so those vehicles can do more rides for

1172
01:35:49,751 --> 01:35:54,855
people that need them. As far as whether to require

1173
01:35:54,855 --> 01:35:59,327
those this legislation, that's an area of discussion we should

1174
01:35:59,327 --> 01:36:02,927
have. Ensuring that there is a

1175
01:36:03,331 --> 01:36:06,331
commitment to offering waymo services.

1176
01:36:06,868 --> 01:36:12,868
>> having been here back in some considerations, taxi cab fleet.

1177
01:36:13,307 --> 01:36:17,145
we heard similarly. It's hard to source those

1178
01:36:17,145 --> 01:36:19,279
vehicles. It's hard to find them.

1179
01:36:19,279 --> 01:36:23,251
the legislation kind of act as a way to say, I think we can.

1180
01:36:23,251 --> 01:36:25,687
now, I don't think we're hitting our marks in terms of being able

1181
01:36:25,687 --> 01:36:30,692
to make sure that we have wheelchair accessible fleet in

1182
01:36:30,692 --> 01:36:32,893
the taxi cab. The legislation can be pretty

1183
01:36:32,893 --> 01:36:36,630
strong incentive to say we got to find that solution.

1184
01:36:36,630 --> 01:36:44,430
I want to flag this something I want to continue to work on.

1185
01:36:45,506 --> 01:36:48,576
mr. Hartfield. >> av's can deliver tremendous

1186
01:36:48,576 --> 01:36:51,646
value for individuals with accessibility needs.

1187
01:36:51,646 --> 01:36:58,452
I think -- today, whether you get tax or uber, if you need

1188
01:36:58,452 --> 01:37:02,223
help getting in and out of the car, there's someone to help you

1189
01:37:02,223 --> 01:37:08,823
get in and out of the car. That obviously doesn't exist

1190
01:37:11,399 --> 01:37:15,690
with an av. Making sure we have some way to

1191
01:37:15,690 --> 01:37:22,900
ensure if I need a person, I continue to have that service.

1192
01:37:22,900 --> 01:37:25,546
>> I think that speaks to why the choice is an important piece

1193
01:37:25,546 --> 01:37:29,416
for what the rider needs and what they are looking for.

1194
01:37:29,416 --> 01:37:32,687
move on to couple of other topics.

1195
01:37:32,687 --> 01:37:38,492
one of the things I've heard globally, concerns around racial

1196
01:37:38,492 --> 01:37:45,692
bias that exists in sensing. What I mean by that is, well

1197
01:37:46,330 --> 01:37:48,536
documented technology like facial recognition, for example.

1198
01:37:48,536 --> 01:37:53,907
the technology that is used both if cameras, lidar, radar, what

1199
01:37:53,907 --> 01:38:00,507
has been the intentional testing to look for, examine and ensure

1200
01:38:01,480 --> 01:38:04,652
there's not racial bias in the data that comes back into the

1201
01:38:04,652 --> 01:38:07,520
vehicles and systems? >> absolutely.

1202
01:38:08,255 --> 01:38:11,992
we looked into this a while ago with our own sensor suite.

1203
01:38:11,992 --> 01:38:17,392
did not find any evidence systematic issues in detecting

1204
01:38:17,798 --> 01:38:23,798
pedestrians based on race. For little bit of context, we

1205
01:38:24,138 --> 01:38:26,807
employ three visual sensors in our vehicles.

1206
01:38:26,807 --> 01:38:29,510
we use cameras. We also use lidar.

1207
01:38:29,510 --> 01:38:35,482
which is a technology that bounces laser points off of

1208
01:38:35,482 --> 01:38:39,107
objects to measure how farther. It brings its own light source.

1209
01:38:39,107 --> 01:38:45,913
it doesn't rely on the sun or street lighting and it works

1210
01:38:45,913 --> 01:38:48,313
equally well. Then radar.

1211
01:38:48,316 --> 01:38:53,188
which is important to see through things like fog and

1212
01:38:53,188 --> 01:38:56,724
rain. Our perception system on the car

1213
01:38:56,724 --> 01:39:02,263
uses all three of those to do detection of all objects.

1214
01:39:02,263 --> 01:39:04,933
pedestrians are some of the most important objects out there to

1215
01:39:04,933 --> 01:39:10,933
be able to recognize. We look for any sort of

1216
01:39:11,940 --> 01:39:16,477
deficiencies that might cause us not able to recognize

1217
01:39:16,477 --> 01:39:21,282
pedestrians and to date, have not found any sort of bias

1218
01:39:21,282 --> 01:39:23,682
related to race. >> okay.

1219
01:39:26,870 --> 01:39:27,689
ms. Herdman? >> similarly.

1220
01:39:27,689 --> 01:39:33,161
we have not found anything that would indicate that our vehicle

1221
01:39:33,161 --> 01:39:35,196
are discriminating on the context of race.

1222
01:39:35,196 --> 01:39:39,167
we go out of our way to make sure our neuronetwork is trained

1223
01:39:39,167 --> 01:39:44,973
on a generalized data set. Both across, state, cities ate

1224
01:39:44,973 --> 01:39:46,441
world. When we're talking about keeping

1225
01:39:46,441 --> 01:39:50,450
a vehicle safe and ensuring that, we're delivering for our

1226
01:39:50,450 --> 01:39:55,445
riders, there's nothing to indicate that the tesla ads

1227
01:39:56,718 --> 01:39:59,200
would discriminate. >> sticking with that for little

1228
01:39:59,200 --> 01:40:02,524
bit. Another concern I heard related

1229
01:40:02,524 --> 01:40:05,694
to imaging and data privacy. I'm walking on the sidewalk.

1230
01:40:05,694 --> 01:40:09,464
I'm in the crosswalk and in front of one of your vehicles.

1231
01:40:09,464 --> 01:40:13,534
there are images, radar, lidar being taken of me as I walk

1232
01:40:13,534 --> 01:40:17,400
through. I heard some people say, is this

1233
01:40:17,400 --> 01:40:21,942
similar technology when I'm in the airport getting scanned.

1234
01:40:21,942 --> 01:40:24,645
I don't want those images shared.

1235
01:40:24,645 --> 01:40:29,217
can you talk about what if I'm a person who is having expectation

1236
01:40:29,217 --> 01:40:34,388
walking on the sidewalk and not having images too close to me,

1237
01:40:34,388 --> 01:40:38,193
what images are captured? What is the data that is held

1238
01:40:38,193 --> 01:40:40,628
and what are the privacy protections in place?

1239
01:40:40,628 --> 01:40:43,964
>> thank you for bringing up that important topic.

1240
01:40:43,964 --> 01:40:47,936
privacy for our users and really all users of the road is

1241
01:40:47,936 --> 01:40:53,336
paramount to our goals. It's something that we have

1242
01:40:54,542 --> 01:40:56,778
espoused ever since our founding.

1243
01:40:56,778 --> 01:40:59,181
I mentioned our three visual sensorrers.

1244
01:40:59,181 --> 01:41:01,649
let me first talk about the non-camera sensors.

1245
01:41:01,649 --> 01:41:07,121
one of the benefits of those, they are essentially already

1246
01:41:07,121 --> 01:41:10,725
itemized looking at lidar scan, or radar scan, you can't tell

1247
01:41:10,725 --> 01:41:13,261
who a person is. You can tell that they are a

1248
01:41:13,261 --> 01:41:15,864
pedestrian. That's a technology that already

1249
01:41:15,864 --> 01:41:18,199
enjoys that benefit. We don't stop there.

1250
01:41:18,199 --> 01:41:25,399
on top of that, we automatically blur all of our images of

1251
01:41:25,874 --> 01:41:31,279
pedestrians faces and license plates as we drive by them.

1252
01:41:31,279 --> 01:41:37,879
to make sure even our engineer who are working on analyzing

1253
01:41:40,555 --> 01:41:46,555
events or logs not able to tell. >> is it recorded?

1254
01:41:48,296 --> 01:41:55,496
let's say there's a crime takes place in front of a waymo.

1255
01:41:55,503 --> 01:41:58,973
ndp say, did your camera catch the license of that tag?

1256
01:41:58,973 --> 01:42:05,380
was it recorded or is it no, our camera blurs it intentionally.

1257
01:42:05,380 --> 01:42:08,950
>> there are many different levels to consider here.

1258
01:42:08,950 --> 01:42:14,989
the perception system on board the vehicle doesn't blur its own

1259
01:42:14,989 --> 01:42:19,789
images. It uses all of those pixels in

1260
01:42:20,995 --> 01:42:23,310
its own driving. We have blurring protections

1261
01:42:23,310 --> 01:42:27,668
that occur at the point of off loading and resisting those

1262
01:42:27,668 --> 01:42:30,538
logs. Then the vast majority of our

1263
01:42:30,538 --> 01:42:34,542
driving that data is just thrown away or not even off loaded off

1264
01:42:34,542 --> 01:42:37,145
the car. The reason for that, we generate

1265
01:42:37,145 --> 01:42:42,545
way too much data for our system to handle.

1266
01:42:43,551 --> 01:42:48,957
generally, that's thrown away. If there was no reason to record

1267
01:42:48,957 --> 01:42:52,894
the crime that you refer to in your hypothetical scenario, it's

1268
01:42:52,894 --> 01:42:56,497
reasonable to suspect that the detailed data from that might be

1269
01:42:56,497 --> 01:43:00,670
thrown away. In other cases if the crime

1270
01:43:00,670 --> 01:43:03,704
impacted the waymo's driving, it might have been logged.

1271
01:43:03,704 --> 01:43:09,977
to your broader point, waymo also makes sure that it would

1272
01:43:09,977 --> 01:43:14,648
only reveal the existence of that data or turn over that data

1273
01:43:14,648 --> 01:43:20,655
to a law enforcement department only in the presence of a lawful

1274
01:43:20,655 --> 01:43:23,724
subpoena for that data. We take privacy protections

1275
01:43:23,724 --> 01:43:26,462
seriously both at the technological level and legal

1276
01:43:26,462 --> 01:43:28,462
level. >> thank you.

1277
01:43:29,596 --> 01:43:32,533
ms. Herdman? >> yes, the tesla ads does

1278
01:43:32,533 --> 01:43:35,533
automatically blur the surrounding imaging.

1279
01:43:41,341 --> 01:43:46,614
tesla also unique in that all vehicle computations are done on

1280
01:43:46,614 --> 01:43:50,951
the actual vehicle. Nothing goes in the cloud.

1281
01:43:50,951 --> 01:43:55,622
tesla accesses that data upon lawful request or a legal event

1282
01:43:55,622 --> 01:43:59,761
that would trigger accessing that data such as a crash or an

1283
01:43:59,761 --> 01:44:03,297
attempted carjack running of a tesla robotaxi vehicle, for

1284
01:44:03,297 --> 01:44:06,166
example. We take privacy extremely

1285
01:44:06,166 --> 01:44:09,766
seriously. The actual vehicle controls our

1286
01:44:10,371 --> 01:44:14,842
hidden command and control centers that would have to have

1287
01:44:14,842 --> 01:44:16,844
double encryption keys to access.

1288
01:44:16,844 --> 01:44:20,180
we are never selling our data to third parties regardless of the

1289
01:44:20,180 --> 01:44:24,510
tesla product whether it's robotaxi or otherwise.

1290
01:44:24,510 --> 01:44:28,220
>> you brought up a good point of the when in public reasonable

1291
01:44:28,220 --> 01:44:30,958
expectation of privacy. I think that's what I heard from

1292
01:44:30,958 --> 01:44:34,328
folks saying, I'm walking on the sidewalk, I can't have a

1293
01:44:34,328 --> 01:44:36,464
reasonable expectation to being in a public space.

1294
01:44:36,464 --> 01:44:40,100
I do have a reasonable expectation that the technology

1295
01:44:40,100 --> 01:44:44,300
you're using isn't seen through my clothes.

1296
01:44:44,738 --> 01:44:48,557
that's I think I'm hearing. I need to understand what level

1297
01:44:48,557 --> 01:44:54,430
does this lidar and radar technology impede upon what I

1298
01:44:54,430 --> 01:44:57,833
think is reasonable. >> just address that point

1299
01:44:57,833 --> 01:45:01,170
directly. No, it cannot see through your

1300
01:45:01,170 --> 01:45:02,605
clothes. >> it is actual question I

1301
01:45:02,605 --> 01:45:05,575
gotten many times. It's helpful to state it out

1302
01:45:05,575 --> 01:45:07,443
loud. >> hopefully it's helpful to

1303
01:45:07,443 --> 01:45:12,843
give you a definitive answer. >> thank you very much.

1304
01:45:13,849 --> 01:45:17,987
you do not sell data to any third parties.

1305
01:45:17,987 --> 01:45:21,560
>> we don't sell data to third parties.

1306
01:45:21,560 --> 01:45:25,828
we did recently announce a program where we are sharing

1307
01:45:25,828 --> 01:45:28,597
some ancillary data that we collect to cities in order to

1308
01:45:28,597 --> 01:45:32,197
help them. We have recently started

1309
01:45:32,868 --> 01:45:37,206
releasing data where potholes exist in cities through the ways

1310
01:45:37,206 --> 01:45:40,743
for cities platform. This is a way that cities can

1311
01:45:40,743 --> 01:45:45,781
get some additional benefit from the vehicles driving around.

1312
01:45:45,781 --> 01:45:47,951
understanding where the potholes are.

1313
01:45:47,951 --> 01:45:50,486
that's something we're seeking to expand to provide additional

1314
01:45:50,486 --> 01:45:53,823
benefits to cities. I know you're at the spirit of

1315
01:45:53,823 --> 01:45:55,559
your question was in different direction.

1316
01:45:55,559 --> 01:45:57,893
I think there's a lot of benefits that can be created

1317
01:45:57,893 --> 01:46:01,497
from that data. >> I appreciate you taking the

1318
01:46:01,497 --> 01:46:04,367
advantage to log that one. Couple of more questions.

1319
01:46:04,367 --> 01:46:09,767
I will make sure we move to other panelists.

1320
01:46:13,109 --> 01:46:17,246
impact on workforce. I don't think it's an if.

1321
01:46:17,246 --> 01:46:20,383
it is. There will be an impact to

1322
01:46:20,383 --> 01:46:23,983
workforce. It's important that we not

1323
01:46:24,120 --> 01:46:27,223
pretend that there isn't plow going to be impact on workforce.

1324
01:46:27,223 --> 01:46:30,326
there will be. As we think about how we prepare

1325
01:46:30,326 --> 01:46:33,128
for that impact, part of the legislation is attempted to do

1326
01:46:33,128 --> 01:46:38,468
as both say, let me have our department of transportation,

1327
01:46:38,468 --> 01:46:42,337
department of employment services work together to help

1328
01:46:42,337 --> 01:46:45,741
write a report and guide us, saying this is what we think the

1329
01:46:45,741 --> 01:46:48,611
impact will be and strategies and how we'll able to affect

1330
01:46:48,611 --> 01:46:50,680
that. The legislation say, let me take

1331
01:46:50,680 --> 01:46:55,151
some of the fees that are coming in and say, how do I use these

1332
01:46:55,151 --> 01:46:59,488
fees to help train a workforce. Help with that impact.

1333
01:46:59,488 --> 01:47:02,625
there's intentionality that we have in the legislation to

1334
01:47:02,625 --> 01:47:08,250
recognize this. What are the ways -- ms. Tuell,

1335
01:47:09,899 --> 01:47:13,503
you talk about the transition of lyft workers into a different

1336
01:47:13,503 --> 01:47:15,438
space. What are some of the intentional

1337
01:47:15,438 --> 01:47:20,420
ways that you recommend if the district will move forward with

1338
01:47:20,420 --> 01:47:23,313
this legislation and let's be clear, even if we pass that

1339
01:47:23,313 --> 01:47:28,713
legislation tomorrow, there will not be commercial operation of

1340
01:47:29,318 --> 01:47:33,518
av's. >> that is why hybrid network is

1341
01:47:45,668 --> 01:47:49,872
important to us. On the one hand, we have not

1342
01:47:49,872 --> 01:47:51,608
brought fully driverless on the platform.

1343
01:47:51,608 --> 01:47:57,547
we're seeing in places like austin and atlanta in cities

1344
01:47:57,547 --> 01:48:01,284
where av's operate in competition with human drivers.

1345
01:48:01,284 --> 01:48:05,688
we see there's growing the pile. Like harry said earlier.

1346
01:48:05,688 --> 01:48:09,425
when you can bring more demand and supply into one network, it

1347
01:48:09,425 --> 01:48:12,562
can help improve driver earnings opportunity.

1348
01:48:12,562 --> 01:48:17,500
at the same time, a lot of our drivers are in this earnings

1349
01:48:17,500 --> 01:48:20,103
opportunity because it's flexible work.

1350
01:48:20,103 --> 01:48:23,106
they potentially are driving on the weekends or night to earn,

1351
01:48:23,106 --> 01:48:25,107
save towards a house and tuition.

1352
01:48:25,107 --> 01:48:28,844
a lot of them have told us in our annual survey, they don't

1353
01:48:28,844 --> 01:48:31,380
see themselves driver oing for the platform this time next

1354
01:48:31,380 --> 01:48:34,116
year. This is a temporary flexible

1355
01:48:34,116 --> 01:48:36,510
job. I think there's a big

1356
01:48:36,510 --> 01:48:39,722
opportunity here to take the skills that are rideshare driver

1357
01:48:39,722 --> 01:48:45,527
has around hospitality, around vehicle and put them in that

1358
01:48:45,527 --> 01:48:49,831
pipeline and prioritize them in av deeper roles and support

1359
01:48:49,831 --> 01:48:52,831
roles. We're excited about that.

1360
01:48:53,268 --> 01:48:55,404
it's something we're able to do in the market.

1361
01:48:55,404 --> 01:49:01,404
we're able to hire 70 staff to work at the depot.

1362
01:49:01,410 --> 01:49:06,148
our hiring team move lyft driver to the front of the line.

1363
01:49:06,148 --> 01:49:11,548
there's skills from the rideshare driving role that are

1364
01:49:12,455 --> 01:49:14,623
directly transferable and should be celebrated and promoted into

1365
01:49:14,623 --> 01:49:17,623
that pipeline. >> were they legislated?

1366
01:49:21,430 --> 01:49:26,830
were they part of agreement for jurisdiction or city?

1367
01:49:28,904 --> 01:49:31,573
>> in nashville, we are the operating partner for waymo.

1368
01:49:31,573 --> 01:49:35,173
we handle all end-to-end fleet management.

1369
01:49:35,911 --> 01:49:37,712
that was a lyft specific practice that we put in place

1370
01:49:37,712 --> 01:49:40,849
around hiring. We also leading up to the launch

1371
01:49:40,849 --> 01:49:45,187
in nashville, we've been hosting lyft driver, autonomous driver

1372
01:49:45,187 --> 01:49:49,592
forums where we meet some of our five star driver regularly to

1373
01:49:49,592 --> 01:49:53,395
hear what they are excited about when av's come to market and

1374
01:49:53,395 --> 01:49:56,331
potential to try one. But also what they are concerned

1375
01:49:56,331 --> 01:50:00,690
about. They are concern about impact on

1376
01:50:00,690 --> 01:50:02,938
their earnings opportunities. We've been able to talk through

1377
01:50:02,938 --> 01:50:07,209
-- what we are seeing, small markets why there's hybrid,

1378
01:50:07,209 --> 01:50:10,278
austin and atlanta. But the potential opportunity to

1379
01:50:10,278 --> 01:50:12,748
actually improve their earnings opportunity and help them choose

1380
01:50:12,748 --> 01:50:19,948
the rides they want to take and an av can take otherwise.

1381
01:50:20,355 --> 01:50:21,957
>> mr. Walsh. >> I appreciate the question.

1382
01:50:21,957 --> 01:50:25,294
I think workforce has been a huge component of the

1383
01:50:25,294 --> 01:50:29,631
conversation around av's and every city but particularly here

1384
01:50:29,631 --> 01:50:33,302
in d.c. I think on the proactive sense,

1385
01:50:33,302 --> 01:50:36,772
waymo has been committed to expanding our workforce

1386
01:50:36,772 --> 01:50:40,410
development program. We have scholarship programs

1387
01:50:40,410 --> 01:50:43,446
through tech united. We have developed first of kind

1388
01:50:43,446 --> 01:50:46,480
community college vocational training program like the one

1389
01:50:46,480 --> 01:50:48,450
that we just established in new york.

1390
01:50:48,450 --> 01:50:54,590
here in d.c., we have begun conversations about how we can

1391
01:50:54,590 --> 01:50:59,809
build out that pipeline. The reality is right now, we

1392
01:50:59,809 --> 01:51:04,814
have not seen that direct job loss that is being illustrated

1393
01:51:04,814 --> 01:51:06,949
today. You're going to hear from other

1394
01:51:06,949 --> 01:51:11,954
people today that are going to talk about the loss of driver

1395
01:51:11,954 --> 01:51:13,723
earnings as a result of the arrival of av's.

1396
01:51:13,723 --> 01:51:18,627
in the long-term, will there be job losses like any other

1397
01:51:18,627 --> 01:51:20,296
technological shift, the answer is likely yes.

1398
01:51:20,296 --> 01:51:22,898
which is why I think the workforce fun that you have put

1399
01:51:22,898 --> 01:51:25,668
in this legislation is an important one that waymo

1400
01:51:25,668 --> 01:51:27,702
supports. In terms of the funding

1401
01:51:27,702 --> 01:51:30,506
mechanisms and how much funding goes into that, that's a

1402
01:51:30,506 --> 01:51:33,506
conversation we're eager to have.

1403
01:51:40,490 --> 01:51:45,855
there are companies seated at this table who control how much

1404
01:51:45,855 --> 01:51:49,792
earnings drivers take home. These companies are taking

1405
01:51:49,792 --> 01:51:52,995
nearly 40 per of those earnings for the company and leaving the

1406
01:51:52,995 --> 01:51:58,395
driver for less. We want to talk about driving,

1407
01:52:00,336 --> 01:52:06,208
earning, the companies at this table should engage in that.

1408
01:52:06,208 --> 01:52:12,180
>> drivers in the district make more than $30 per hour on

1409
01:52:12,180 --> 01:52:15,917
utilized time. There are tens of thousands of

1410
01:52:15,917 --> 01:52:19,955
them, there's 100 plus people. That's about 9900 people who can

1411
01:52:19,955 --> 01:52:23,826
stand lose access to work. People work on their own

1412
01:52:23,826 --> 01:52:28,164
schedule on our app. You work in the depot you're a

1413
01:52:28,164 --> 01:52:31,834
full-time employee. If you want to make extra money,

1414
01:52:31,834 --> 01:52:35,700
that's not really an option to go work at a depot.

1415
01:52:35,700 --> 01:52:37,106
this is very valuable work to a lot of people.

1416
01:52:37,106 --> 01:52:42,911
happy to talk about the insurance when it comes to pay

1417
01:52:42,911 --> 01:52:44,447
grade. These are people who live in the

1418
01:52:44,447 --> 01:52:47,116
district. If you work on our app, you live

1419
01:52:47,116 --> 01:52:50,719
in district, you pay a tax in the district, you go to local

1420
01:52:50,719 --> 01:52:53,856
restaurants and you go to bars and see your friends.

1421
01:52:53,856 --> 01:52:59,196
if you give money to tesla or waymo, both great companies,

1422
01:52:59,196 --> 01:53:02,864
that money ends up in texas or california.

1423
01:53:02,864 --> 01:53:07,403
there's no they don't -- that's why their headquarters are.

1424
01:53:07,403 --> 01:53:12,740
we should be honest that depot jobs, there's 20 scholarships

1425
01:53:12,740 --> 01:53:17,613
they are working on and 100 depot jobs is not a replacement

1426
01:53:17,613 --> 01:53:20,750
for tens of thousands of people who drive on our platform and

1427
01:53:20,750 --> 01:53:24,353
enjoy the flexibility. That's not a reason not to have

1428
01:53:24,353 --> 01:53:25,954
av's. It is a reason to be thoughtful

1429
01:53:25,954 --> 01:53:29,492
about how we do a workforce transition.

1430
01:53:29,492 --> 01:53:33,862
you know in general, rescaling and training programs haven't

1431
01:53:33,862 --> 01:53:37,966
always delivered to value workers really need.

1432
01:53:37,966 --> 01:53:40,970
we should be transparent that there will be especially we see

1433
01:53:40,970 --> 01:53:43,970
in california, drivers makeless one.

1434
01:53:44,372 --> 01:53:46,374
one av takes the work of four drivers.

1435
01:53:46,374 --> 01:53:50,574
that's real. We should expect that in 2028

1436
01:53:50,714 --> 01:53:54,216
there will be thousands of av's in the district.

1437
01:53:54,216 --> 01:53:57,185
that means less work for a lot of drivers in the district.

1438
01:53:57,185 --> 01:54:00,923
>> I'm going to try to keep us constructive.

1439
01:54:00,923 --> 01:54:04,392
we are slading behind schedule. This panel has been a lot of

1440
01:54:04,392 --> 01:54:09,464
expertise that we needed to tease tout and flush through.

1441
01:54:09,464 --> 01:54:13,403
I was here when uber came in the marketplace.

1442
01:54:13,403 --> 01:54:18,475
if we were to pretend we didn't see loss of earnings for taxi

1443
01:54:18,475 --> 01:54:21,276
cab drives, we wouldn't be honest.

1444
01:54:21,276 --> 01:54:25,781
that doesn't mean having uber and lyft come in the marketplace

1445
01:54:25,781 --> 01:54:29,518
to be a disruptor that created more options to get around my

1446
01:54:29,518 --> 01:54:33,622
city, at the end of the day, it's a net benefit to my

1447
01:54:33,622 --> 01:54:34,689
transportation choices in the city.

1448
01:54:34,689 --> 01:54:39,828
I can't say I didn't see people who had earned a living as taxi

1449
01:54:39,828 --> 01:54:42,828
driver see their income diminish.

1450
01:54:43,632 --> 01:54:46,434
when I think about this, we're not going to do right by the

1451
01:54:46,434 --> 01:54:50,390
city or by our workers if we say, there might be an impact, I

1452
01:54:50,390 --> 01:54:53,375
don't know. There will be an impact.

1453
01:54:53,375 --> 01:54:57,110
there will. We have the opportunity to be

1454
01:54:57,110 --> 01:54:59,715
very intentional thinking about what does workforce transition.

1455
01:54:59,715 --> 01:55:02,715
what does workforce loss mitigation.

1456
01:55:02,717 --> 01:55:07,122
what are are the different strategies to use.

1457
01:55:07,122 --> 01:55:10,725
it doesn't mean we say no to innovation and technology.

1458
01:55:10,725 --> 01:55:12,661
it does mean we have a responsibility to think about

1459
01:55:12,661 --> 01:55:17,461
what that this looks like to do right.

1460
01:55:17,600 --> 01:55:20,268
that's kind of been my approach. I think it's probably consistent

1461
01:55:20,268 --> 01:55:25,668
what most of the council wants to look at.

1462
01:55:25,940 --> 01:55:30,211
I'm grateful we'll continue this conversation in the weeks and

1463
01:55:30,211 --> 01:55:34,550
months to come. This panel has been great.

1464
01:55:34,550 --> 01:55:37,180
I have a lot of witnesses I want to make sure I get through

1465
01:55:37,180 --> 01:55:38,954
today. I want to thank you all for your

1466
01:55:38,954 --> 01:55:41,354
testimony today. Thank you.

1467
01:55:44,826 --> 01:55:48,290
our second panel of witnesses now.

1468
01:55:48,290 --> 01:55:53,235
jabari cooper, the director of state and local government

1469
01:55:53,235 --> 01:55:55,437
affair. Chamber of progress.

1470
01:55:55,437 --> 01:55:59,375
I have shawn townsend, restaurant association of

1471
01:55:59,375 --> 01:56:02,975
metropolitan washington. Daniel flores, vice president

1472
01:56:02,979 --> 01:56:08,116
for regional engagement with the greater washington board of

1473
01:56:08,116 --> 01:56:10,251
trade. Crispus gordon, vice president

1474
01:56:10,251 --> 01:56:12,651
government affairs. Chinyere hubbard.

1475
01:56:18,793 --> 01:56:23,593
we have you signed up as public witness.

1476
01:56:25,801 --> 01:56:28,937
ms. Hubbard is with chamber of commerce.

1477
01:56:28,937 --> 01:56:31,937
please come on up. >> cooper.

1478
01:56:44,686 --> 01:56:47,623
>> good afternoon. I'm director of state and local

1479
01:56:47,623 --> 01:56:51,160
government relations for chamber of progress, systemming public

1480
01:56:51,160 --> 01:56:56,560
policies to build a more inclusive society which all

1481
01:56:57,633 --> 01:56:59,335
people benefit. We strongly support this

1482
01:56:59,335 --> 01:57:01,903
legislation. We believe will help build

1483
01:57:01,903 --> 01:57:05,173
better on goals of safety, equity and successful

1484
01:57:05,173 --> 01:57:07,450
deployment. Chair allen after more than four

1485
01:57:07,450 --> 01:57:13,450
years of delay, you developed a attract's serious framework for

1486
01:57:13,857 --> 01:57:15,559
commercial autonomous vehicle deployment.

1487
01:57:15,559 --> 01:57:19,759
that deserves real credit. Autonomous vehicles are

1488
01:57:21,365 --> 01:57:23,765
demonstrating safety perform performance.

1489
01:57:27,604 --> 01:57:31,204
meanwhile, the district experienced highest traffic

1490
01:57:31,742 --> 01:57:36,542
fatality rate in 16 years. We deplayed deploying safer

1491
01:57:36,946 --> 01:57:39,946
technology. Our recommen recommendations ard

1492
01:57:41,818 --> 01:57:45,556
to help the bill succeed. The 200 vehicle fleet cap.

1493
01:57:45,556 --> 01:57:48,558
the by requires service across all eight wards.

1494
01:57:48,558 --> 01:57:50,494
it makes that goal difficult to achieve.

1495
01:57:50,494 --> 01:57:53,563
operators will naturally concentrate limited vehicle

1496
01:57:53,563 --> 01:57:57,100
where is demand is highest, likely downtown and not in ward

1497
01:57:57,100 --> 01:58:01,300
7 and 8. Nearly half of households do not

1498
01:58:01,905 --> 01:58:04,441
own a vehicle, autonomous vehicles are not just about

1499
01:58:04,441 --> 01:58:08,378
innovation, they are about expanding access to reliable

1500
01:58:08,378 --> 01:58:10,447
transportation. We recommend replacing the cap

1501
01:58:10,447 --> 01:58:15,247
with a performance-based expansion tied to safety and

1502
01:58:17,254 --> 01:58:20,854
equitable service milestone. Third, deployment model

1503
01:58:37,941 --> 01:58:40,341
neutrallalty. The definition should

1504
01:58:40,410 --> 01:58:43,747
accommodate all autonomous vehicles including hybrid

1505
01:58:43,747 --> 01:58:48,180
networks to companies can compete on equal footing.

1506
01:58:48,180 --> 01:58:52,155
finally, arbitration provision. As drafted, this likely to

1507
01:58:52,155 --> 01:58:56,355
conflict with the federal arbitration act, accuracying

1508
01:58:58,428 --> 01:59:00,230
unnecessary litigation that can delay implementation.

1509
01:59:00,230 --> 01:59:04,834
riders are well protected because the bill makes av

1510
01:59:04,834 --> 01:59:07,637
companies legally responsible whenever autonomous drivers are

1511
01:59:07,637 --> 01:59:09,772
engaged. Chair allen, we believe this

1512
01:59:09,772 --> 01:59:14,572
legislation can make a district national leader autonomous

1513
01:59:16,846 --> 01:59:20,446
vehicle deployment. We submitted more detailed

1514
01:59:22,852 --> 01:59:25,989
written testimony that goes into more detail.

1515
01:59:25,989 --> 01:59:29,525
thank you again. >> thank you very much.

1516
01:59:29,525 --> 01:59:32,525
next, mr. Townsend. >> good morning.

1517
01:59:34,931 --> 01:59:36,800
chairman allen and member of the committee.

1518
01:59:36,800 --> 01:59:39,736
thank you for the opportunity to testify today.

1519
01:59:39,736 --> 01:59:41,938
I'm shawn townsend. I have the pleasure of serving

1520
01:59:41,938 --> 01:59:45,808
as president and ceo of the restaurant association of

1521
01:59:45,808 --> 01:59:50,800
metropolitan washington. For more than 100 years, rmw

1522
01:59:52,215 --> 01:59:55,815
represented more than 1500 restaurants across the

1523
01:59:57,253 --> 02:00:02,530
washington region. Before joining our rmw, I served

1524
02:00:05,495 --> 02:00:07,564
as first district of night life and culture.

1525
02:00:07,564 --> 02:00:12,836
earlier, I worked part time as an uber driver.

1526
02:00:12,836 --> 02:00:15,971
like so many people in hospitality, picked up

1527
02:00:15,971 --> 02:00:17,974
additional work to help make ends meet.

1528
02:00:17,974 --> 02:00:22,311
these experience give me a unique perspective on how

1529
02:00:22,311 --> 02:00:25,281
transportation, economic opportunity and public safety

1530
02:00:25,281 --> 02:00:28,510
all have interest. That's why I believe good

1531
02:00:28,510 --> 02:00:30,720
transportation policy is good restaurant policy.

1532
02:00:30,720 --> 02:00:34,323
for our industry, transportation is economic development.

1533
02:00:34,323 --> 02:00:37,193
the easier it is for people to get to our restaurants the more

1534
02:00:37,193 --> 02:00:40,730
likely they are to dine out explore new neighborhoods and

1535
02:00:40,730 --> 02:00:43,499
support local businesses. Autonomous vehicles have the

1536
02:00:43,499 --> 02:00:49,499
potential to remove some of the biggest barriers, customers face

1537
02:00:49,873 --> 02:00:53,609
including traffic, parking and hassle getting around the city.

1538
02:00:53,609 --> 02:00:58,682
reliable transportation is just as important for our workforce.

1539
02:00:58,682 --> 02:01:01,751
restaurants operate early in the morning often before metro opens

1540
02:01:01,751 --> 02:01:05,221
long after it closes. Thousands of hospitality

1541
02:01:05,221 --> 02:01:09,359
employees rely on rid cher services -- rideshare services

1542
02:01:09,359 --> 02:01:12,628
to get to work. Expanding transportation options

1543
02:01:12,628 --> 02:01:15,298
isn't about convenience. It's about making these jobs

1544
02:01:15,298 --> 02:01:17,767
more accessible. I had the opportunity to see

1545
02:01:17,767 --> 02:01:22,567
this technology firsthand. Early this year, I tours

1546
02:01:24,390 --> 02:01:25,875
facilities in phoenix better understand how autonomous

1547
02:01:25,875 --> 02:01:28,875
vehicles are deployed and managed.

1548
02:01:29,112 --> 02:01:32,916
I was impressed by the company's focus on safety, training and

1549
02:01:32,916 --> 02:01:35,218
oversight. I know there's some concerns

1550
02:01:35,218 --> 02:01:38,254
about how this technology may affect existing jobs.

1551
02:01:38,254 --> 02:01:41,657
I don't want to minimize those concerns.

1552
02:01:41,657 --> 02:01:45,428
I do think it's equally important to recognize the jobs

1553
02:01:45,428 --> 02:01:48,640
this industry is creating. I've learned about the wide

1554
02:01:48,640 --> 02:01:52,268
range of positions needed to support autonomous vehicle

1555
02:01:52,268 --> 02:01:56,720
operations from fleet operations and vehicle maintenance to

1556
02:01:56,720 --> 02:01:58,675
charging infrastructure, logistics, customer support and

1557
02:01:58,675 --> 02:02:02,110
safety specialists. These are good paying jobs that

1558
02:02:02,110 --> 02:02:05,148
include training and career advancement opportunities.

1559
02:02:05,148 --> 02:02:09,119
as this technology grows in the district, those employment

1560
02:02:09,119 --> 02:02:11,821
opportunities deserve to be part of the conversation.

1561
02:02:11,821 --> 02:02:16,426
we support the overall framework of this legislation including

1562
02:02:16,426 --> 02:02:19,950
the creation of ddot's commercial autonomous vehicle

1563
02:02:19,950 --> 02:02:24,495
program and the phased employment -- it's a approach

1564
02:02:27,670 --> 02:02:30,974
that allows innovation while maintaining accountability.

1565
02:02:30,974 --> 02:02:33,776
our primary concern is the proposed 15-cent per mile

1566
02:02:33,776 --> 02:02:38,181
vehicle miles travel tax. As drafted that tax would apply

1567
02:02:38,181 --> 02:02:41,450
to every autonomous vehicle trip including the trips that help

1568
02:02:41,450 --> 02:02:45,321
someone get home safely after dinner or help a worker get to

1569
02:02:45,321 --> 02:02:48,257
work before sunrise or home after a late night shift.

1570
02:02:48,257 --> 02:02:51,394
those are exactly the kind of trips we should be encouraging

1571
02:02:51,394 --> 02:02:57,994
and not making more expensive. If our shared goals is improving

1572
02:03:01,137 --> 02:03:07,737
mobility, and encouraging, we should be kind of not to educate

1573
02:03:08,100 --> 02:03:12,810
barriers to discourage people from using the service.

1574
02:03:14,353 --> 02:03:16,221
I'm happy to answer any questions.

1575
02:03:16,221 --> 02:03:19,821
>> thank you very much. Mr. Flores.

1576
02:03:20,926 --> 02:03:23,829
>> thank you, mr. Chairman and members of the committee.

1577
02:03:23,829 --> 02:03:26,165
for the opportunity to submit testimony.

1578
02:03:26,165 --> 02:03:31,236
my name is daniel flores r vice president of regional engagement

1579
02:03:31,236 --> 02:03:35,400
for the greater washington board of trade.

1580
02:03:35,400 --> 02:03:39,311
the greater washington board of trade brings together leaders

1581
02:03:39,311 --> 02:03:43,783
across business, government, academia and nonprofit sector to

1582
02:03:43,783 --> 02:03:46,852
advance policies that in partnerships support economic

1583
02:03:46,852 --> 02:03:50,389
growth, innovation and opportunity across the

1584
02:03:50,389 --> 02:03:53,192
washington metropolitan region. We are committed to a district

1585
02:03:53,192 --> 02:03:58,592
that is safe, competitive and prepare for the future.

1586
02:03:58,798 --> 02:04:01,734
greater washington board of trade support the bill sense of

1587
02:04:01,734 --> 02:04:06,339
purpose it's creating a clear pathway for the responsibility

1588
02:04:06,339 --> 02:04:10,900
-- the responsible deployment of commercial autonomous vehicles

1589
02:04:10,900 --> 02:04:13,609
in the district. Autonomous vehicles technology

1590
02:04:16,282 --> 02:04:19,282
is no longer distant possibility.

1591
02:04:37,737 --> 02:04:41,640
greater washington has the assets to participate in that

1592
02:04:41,640 --> 02:04:45,240
growth, a region strength, cybersecurity, logistics,

1593
02:04:48,647 --> 02:04:53,385
research and advanced technology make it well position to lead in

1594
02:04:53,385 --> 02:04:56,322
the next generation of transportation systems.

1595
02:04:56,322 --> 02:05:01,260
as the region works to strengthen and diversify its

1596
02:05:01,260 --> 02:05:05,460
economy, transportation innovation is part of the

1597
02:05:05,931 --> 02:05:07,800
broader competitiveness in the conversation.

1598
02:05:07,800 --> 02:05:13,438
the district should help shape the future of mobility rather

1599
02:05:13,438 --> 02:05:19,438
than wait for the benefits that innovation to accrue elsewhere.

1600
02:05:20,212 --> 02:05:24,820
safety must remain central. Concerns about recent incidents

1601
02:05:24,820 --> 02:05:27,820
involving autonomous vehicles are understandable.

1602
02:05:27,953 --> 02:05:32,624
particularly, in a city with dense streets, significant

1603
02:05:32,624 --> 02:05:35,493
pedestrian activity major events, emergency operationings

1604
02:05:35,493 --> 02:05:38,493
and the complex transportation network.

1605
02:05:39,300 --> 02:05:42,630
new technology requires clear expectations, public

1606
02:05:42,635 --> 02:05:46,835
accountability and safeguards that build confidence among

1607
02:05:48,640 --> 02:05:52,644
residents first responders, businesses and policy makers.

1608
02:05:52,644 --> 02:05:58,440
we believe those concerns can be addressed throughout thoughtful

1609
02:05:58,785 --> 02:06:03,254
policy but not delayed. The district should establish a

1610
02:06:03,254 --> 02:06:08,540
framework that holds operators accountable for public safety

1611
02:06:09,194 --> 02:06:12,131
and gives the city the ability to respond when standards are

1612
02:06:12,131 --> 02:06:15,200
not met. You should also create an

1613
02:06:15,200 --> 02:06:19,938
environment in which responsible companies can enter the market,

1614
02:06:19,938 --> 02:06:24,409
test, learn and grow. As the bill moves forward, we

1615
02:06:24,409 --> 02:06:28,881
encourage the committee to ensure that it is final

1616
02:06:28,881 --> 02:06:31,484
requirements remain balance and workable.

1617
02:06:31,484 --> 02:06:36,284
a framework intended to authorize deployment should not

1618
02:06:37,889 --> 02:06:41,489
impose costs, reporting obligations or operational

1619
02:06:41,760 --> 02:06:47,160
restrictions that make the district an outlier among peers

1620
02:06:48,533 --> 02:06:51,903
jurisdictions or discourage responsible investment before it

1621
02:06:51,903 --> 02:06:54,903
begins. Requirement should protect the

1622
02:06:56,174 --> 02:07:00,374
public and cover administrative costs while remaining

1623
02:07:00,512 --> 02:07:04,583
proportionate, predictable and align with established national

1624
02:07:04,583 --> 02:07:08,183
standards wherever possible. Autonomous vehicles should

1625
02:07:17,397 --> 02:07:22,197
compliment public transit, improve access and mobility and

1626
02:07:23,736 --> 02:07:28,536
fit within a regional approach to transportation, economic

1627
02:07:29,410 --> 02:07:31,342
growth. The district's decision will not

1628
02:07:31,342 --> 02:07:34,942
occur in isolation. Businesses, worker, residents

1629
02:07:35,680 --> 02:07:41,800
and transportation systems move across d.c., maryland and

1630
02:07:41,619 --> 02:07:44,289
virginia every day and the region will be a better place

1631
02:07:44,289 --> 02:07:47,259
served by policies that recognize that reality.

1632
02:07:47,259 --> 02:07:50,629
the greater washington appreciation, the commitments

1633
02:07:50,629 --> 02:07:53,965
leadership and thank you for the opportunity to testify and for

1634
02:07:53,965 --> 02:07:59,365
the consideration of this bill. >> thank you mr. Flores.

1635
02:08:05,377 --> 02:08:08,377
mr. Gordon. >> good morning councilmember

1636
02:08:10,249 --> 02:08:14,386
allen. My name is crispus gordon I'm

1637
02:08:14,386 --> 02:08:15,721
vice president government affairs.

1638
02:08:15,721 --> 02:08:20,521
I'm here to present testimony on bill 26-0684.

1639
02:08:22,928 --> 02:08:27,733
I'm thrilled to be on a panel with individuals like shawn

1640
02:08:27,733 --> 02:08:34,333
townsend who board I serve on, david flores and mr. Hubbard.

1641
02:08:41,813 --> 02:08:45,350
the same should be applied to autonomous vehicle technology.

1642
02:08:45,350 --> 02:08:49,755
autonomous vehicle represent one of the most significant leaps in

1643
02:08:49,755 --> 02:08:52,824
urban mobility. The offer for those who cannot

1644
02:08:52,824 --> 02:08:56,962
drive do you to age. A safe, affordable on demand

1645
02:08:56,962 --> 02:08:59,365
vehicle to get to various places.

1646
02:08:59,365 --> 02:09:02,634
as an anchor for downtown, we want to see as many people have

1647
02:09:02,634 --> 02:09:06,234
their ability to attend 200 plus events.

1648
02:09:06,705 --> 02:09:10,420
this will continue to bring d.c. Residents and visitor who are in

1649
02:09:10,420 --> 02:09:13,645
the city to the many restaurants and retail establishment that

1650
02:09:13,645 --> 02:09:20,245
support our local economy. We desire to ensure that all our

1651
02:09:20,386 --> 02:09:26,986
fans, have accessible ways to see games or come to various

1652
02:09:27,393 --> 02:09:29,610
concerts. We believe the autonomous

1653
02:09:29,610 --> 02:09:32,732
vehicle will be part of the renaissance of downtown.

1654
02:09:32,732 --> 02:09:39,932
d.c. Cannot afford to be the last major american city to

1655
02:09:42,742 --> 02:09:46,342
embrace autonomous vehicles. The autonomous vehicle

1656
02:09:49,415 --> 02:09:53,285
deployment authorization act creates a path for the future to

1657
02:09:53,285 --> 02:09:58,685
arrive here in d.c. >> thank you very much.

1658
02:10:08,501 --> 02:10:12,972
ms. Hubbard. You also the president and ceo

1659
02:10:12,972 --> 02:10:16,642
d.c. Chamber of commerce. >> thank you so much, chairman

1660
02:10:16,642 --> 02:10:20,242
allen. My name is chinyere hubbard.

1661
02:10:28,455 --> 02:10:32,591
I thank you for the opportunity to testify today.

1662
02:10:32,591 --> 02:10:37,997
I am placed to appear on behalf of the business community to

1663
02:10:37,997 --> 02:10:43,397
stress the chamber's strong support for proposed support for

1664
02:10:43,869 --> 02:10:45,404
enabling autonomous vehicles in washington d.c.

1665
02:10:45,404 --> 02:10:48,574
we appreciate your support and leadership on this bill.

1666
02:10:48,574 --> 02:10:51,676
it represents a transformative opportunity to strengthen public

1667
02:10:51,676 --> 02:10:54,680
safety and improve transportation reliability and

1668
02:10:54,680 --> 02:10:57,949
stimulate economic growth across our neighborhoods and commercial

1669
02:10:57,949 --> 02:10:59,552
corridors. The d.c. Chamber support for

1670
02:10:59,552 --> 02:11:03,752
this bill is grounded in four areas.

1671
02:11:03,756 --> 02:11:08,160
first, safer d.c. Street. As you heard from the previous

1672
02:11:08,160 --> 02:11:09,628
panel, autonomous vehicle technology has been shown to

1673
02:11:09,628 --> 02:11:13,828
reduce severe crashes by 94%. Pedestrian injuries by 93%.

1674
02:11:17,569 --> 02:11:22,969
cyclists injuries by 84%. For washington d.c., this means

1675
02:11:23,109 --> 02:11:27,460
safer commutes along corridors like george avenue, and

1676
02:11:27,460 --> 02:11:29,981
pennsylvania avenue and greater confidence for residents in all

1677
02:11:29,981 --> 02:11:32,584
eight wards. Second, mobility and equity.

1678
02:11:32,584 --> 02:11:35,654
for many district residents the ability to get to work on time

1679
02:11:35,654 --> 02:11:41,540
attend a doctor's appointment or really depends on reliable

1680
02:11:41,927 --> 02:11:44,797
transit options. When transportation is

1681
02:11:44,797 --> 02:11:49,135
unreliable or unaffordable, it becomes a barrier that limits

1682
02:11:49,135 --> 02:11:51,535
opportunity and deepens inequities.

1683
02:11:52,137 --> 02:11:55,808
autonomous ride services offer a consistent safe and inclusive

1684
02:11:55,808 --> 02:11:58,744
option. A driverless alternative that

1685
02:11:58,744 --> 02:12:01,881
supports local businesses and offers residents, especially

1686
02:12:01,881 --> 02:12:06,681
women and vulnerable populations a safer alternative traditional

1687
02:12:08,220 --> 02:12:10,289
ride. This technology can be a

1688
02:12:10,289 --> 02:12:13,893
powerful tool in advancing equity for those who have faced

1689
02:12:13,893 --> 02:12:17,430
transportation challenges. Strengthening access to jobs,

1690
02:12:17,430 --> 02:12:19,898
retail and services across the city.

1691
02:12:19,898 --> 02:12:23,635
when people have another trusted way to get around town, they go

1692
02:12:23,635 --> 02:12:29,641
out more, stay out later and spend more money at d.c.

1693
02:12:29,641 --> 02:12:31,641
businesses. Proven readness.

1694
02:12:33,378 --> 02:12:35,848
waymo extensive experience, including mapping, driving

1695
02:12:35,848 --> 02:12:40,218
hundreds thousands of miles here in the district and operating 11

1696
02:12:40,218 --> 02:12:44,790
major u.s. Cities, with more than 500,000 rides weekly,

1697
02:12:44,790 --> 02:12:47,326
underscores the technologies reliability and readiness for

1698
02:12:47,326 --> 02:12:50,129
deployment in the district of columbia.

1699
02:12:50,129 --> 02:12:53,532
fourth, economic development. Waymo investment in local

1700
02:12:53,532 --> 02:12:57,736
infrastructure and job creation in vehicle maintenance and fleet

1701
02:12:57,736 --> 02:13:01,730
operations aligns with the d.c.'s chamber mission to foster

1702
02:13:01,730 --> 02:13:03,876
workforce growth and expand opportunity in the district.

1703
02:13:03,876 --> 02:13:08,130
notably, this investment is happening even before official

1704
02:13:08,130 --> 02:13:10,216
authorization to serve the public here.

1705
02:13:10,216 --> 02:13:13,553
it will only grow as waymo expands.

1706
02:13:13,553 --> 02:13:15,688
autonomous vehicles won't eliminate jobs.

1707
02:13:15,688 --> 02:13:19,910
they'll create them. These fleets require technicians

1708
02:13:19,910 --> 02:13:21,960
as we've heard. Vehicle maintenance special is,

1709
02:13:21,960 --> 02:13:24,290
fleet operators and safety monitors.

1710
02:13:24,290 --> 02:13:27,299
each role represents a pathway into stable eye demand careers

1711
02:13:27,299 --> 02:13:30,902
that align with the district eats workforce development

1712
02:13:30,902 --> 02:13:33,339
priorities. While the chamber supports the

1713
02:13:33,339 --> 02:13:36,375
bill, we do recommend three adjustments to ensure it

1714
02:13:36,375 --> 02:13:38,811
delivers maximum benefit for all washingtonians.

1715
02:13:38,811 --> 02:13:45,450
first, a fair tax structure, the bill's high per mile travel tax,

1716
02:13:45,450 --> 02:13:49,588
layered on top of d.c.'s existing fees will make the

1717
02:13:49,588 --> 02:13:51,990
service 30% more expensive before the first ride even

1718
02:13:51,990 --> 02:13:54,794
starts. Replace it with a modest per

1719
02:13:54,794 --> 02:13:57,530
trip fee. To keep rides affordable for

1720
02:13:57,530 --> 02:14:01,730
residents and visitors. Second, fleet expansion, remove

1721
02:14:03,869 --> 02:14:08,730
the cap of 200 vehicles along with the city's permanent

1722
02:14:08,730 --> 02:14:14,730
authority to impose new caps. Now expansion based on safety

1723
02:14:15,147 --> 02:14:18,147
milestones. This ensures reliable service

1724
02:14:18,751 --> 02:14:22,951
across all wards. Third, a timely launch.

1725
02:14:28,627 --> 02:14:31,830
eliminate this delay and allow paid rides to begin as soon as

1726
02:14:31,830 --> 02:14:33,899
safety and operational standards are met.

1727
02:14:33,899 --> 02:14:37,470
the district shouldn't wait years to benefit from safer and

1728
02:14:37,470 --> 02:14:40,172
more reliable mobility. Autonomous vehicles are

1729
02:14:40,172 --> 02:14:44,643
important and opportunity to make washington d.c. A more

1730
02:14:44,643 --> 02:14:48,914
connected, economically vibrant. The d.c. Chamber urges the

1731
02:14:48,914 --> 02:14:52,384
council to adopt this legislation with the recommendly

1732
02:14:52,384 --> 02:14:57,856
modification so their city can lady the nation I can.-- lead

1733
02:14:57,856 --> 02:14:59,458
the nation with equitable transportation.

1734
02:14:59,458 --> 02:15:03,580
I'm happy to answer any questions.

1735
02:15:03,863 --> 02:15:07,667
>> let me work through a couple of questions here.

1736
02:15:07,667 --> 02:15:08,735
mr. Flores, let me start with you.

1737
02:15:08,735 --> 02:15:12,935
the board of trade works regionally, correct?

1738
02:15:16,475 --> 02:15:21,881
we heard a question earlier, if I wanted to catch an av, let's

1739
02:15:21,881 --> 02:15:27,190
assume it's operation now, I want to catch it to go to

1740
02:15:27,190 --> 02:15:30,856
national airport, it's not going to let me out at the state line.

1741
02:15:30,856 --> 02:15:34,443
that trip is not going to exist. It won't be an option.

1742
02:15:34,443 --> 02:15:37,713
what is the board of trade doing in terms of reaching out to

1743
02:15:37,713 --> 02:15:39,982
colleagues in maryland and in virginia.

1744
02:15:39,982 --> 02:15:44,786
how much do you think the eyes are on d.c. To set the tone for

1745
02:15:44,786 --> 02:15:47,756
the region around what this looks like for our neighbors in

1746
02:15:47,756 --> 02:15:50,459
virginia and maryland? >> thank you for that question.

1747
02:15:50,459 --> 02:15:53,596
definitely, it's something that we have looked in the past but

1748
02:15:53,596 --> 02:15:57,933
also is up to the elected officials to make sure that

1749
02:15:57,933 --> 02:16:03,933
something like this can go across jurisdictions in like you

1750
02:16:05,407 --> 02:16:10,546
mentioned if you take a taxi to go to the airport.

1751
02:16:10,546 --> 02:16:18,346
you can't take one back. Which I think is for a lack of

1752
02:16:19,755 --> 02:16:23,955
better word, a waste. A lost opportunity.

1753
02:16:24,159 --> 02:16:30,310
right now, in talking to some folks that work late at night in

1754
02:16:30,310 --> 02:16:34,231
the restaurant or similar industry, sometimes it's

1755
02:16:34,770 --> 02:16:39,570
difficult to get across jurisdictions because of that

1756
02:16:40,308 --> 02:16:43,445
similar problem. It's something we would like to

1757
02:16:43,445 --> 02:16:50,510
see that buses and metro just get around well but we have

1758
02:16:50,510 --> 02:16:53,355
different bus systems that we would like for them to work

1759
02:16:53,355 --> 02:16:57,859
together to make sure that we serve everybody not only in

1760
02:16:57,859 --> 02:17:01,330
maryland and virginia but also in the district.

1761
02:17:01,330 --> 02:17:05,670
make sure that it is seemless connection from one jurisdiction

1762
02:17:05,670 --> 02:17:07,269
to the next. That's a very good question.

1763
02:17:07,269 --> 02:17:09,271
thank you. >> I think it's important that

1764
02:17:09,271 --> 02:17:17,671
you be able to move regionally. I want to make sure I get a

1765
02:17:19,147 --> 02:17:26,947
shout out to my friends. Let me work through a couple of issues

1766
02:17:30,359 --> 02:17:34,559
you highlighted. Mr. Cooper, the 200 cap you

1767
02:17:35,564 --> 02:17:38,633
brought that up. The way the legislation is

1768
02:17:38,633 --> 02:17:41,970
crafted right now is kind of a tiered approach to continue to

1769
02:17:41,970 --> 02:17:44,506
show who the concept. This is new technology.

1770
02:17:44,506 --> 02:17:50,979
it is going to be something that is disruptive in some ways.

1771
02:17:50,979 --> 02:17:53,915
also innovative. The idea behind it is let's

1772
02:17:53,915 --> 02:17:57,820
start with 200 cap. It also says, which is about ten

1773
02:17:57,820 --> 02:18:01,790
times the number of vehicles for testing about 25.

1774
02:18:01,790 --> 02:18:07,463
it also say us got to make sure your wait times across the city

1775
02:18:07,463 --> 02:18:10,999
are relatively equal. What I hear you saying, not too

1776
02:18:10,999 --> 02:18:14,937
convinced you will be able to achieve that with a cap of 200.

1777
02:18:14,937 --> 02:18:20,337
should that cap go up to better accomplish goal.

1778
02:18:21,877 --> 02:18:24,746
I don't believe we should eliminate a cap.

1779
02:18:24,746 --> 02:18:30,190
I think that's a fair point to say are you going to reach your

1780
02:18:30,190 --> 02:18:35,257
policy goals ensuring equitable reach across the city is 200

1781
02:18:35,257 --> 02:18:38,857
cap? >> I think that's a great

1782
02:18:40,496 --> 02:18:43,898
encapsulation. I think the 200 cap, we trying

1783
02:18:43,898 --> 02:18:48,237
to performance-based cap. That's what you're getting at as

1784
02:18:48,237 --> 02:18:51,506
well. We just want to make sure that

1785
02:18:51,506 --> 02:18:55,243
this policy gets off the ground. We'll be able to work with 200.

1786
02:18:55,243 --> 02:18:58,914
we trying to increase and want to make sure all wards are

1787
02:18:58,914 --> 02:19:03,510
served by the policy. >> the legislation requires

1788
02:19:03,510 --> 02:19:05,721
every ward to be service to the same level but I think what I'm

1789
02:19:05,721 --> 02:19:09,391
hearing you say is, you should really think long and hard.

1790
02:19:09,391 --> 02:19:12,991
you testified about the hybrid network.

1791
02:19:23,938 --> 02:19:26,108
we heard about that in the first panel.

1792
02:19:26,108 --> 02:19:32,147
on one hand, we do want to create a structure that the

1793
02:19:32,147 --> 02:19:35,950
autonomous vehicle permit holder is directly managing the fleet

1794
02:19:35,950 --> 02:19:42,157
that they are responsible for. I think one of our witnesses

1795
02:19:42,157 --> 02:19:46,494
testified about would that preclude, for example, shared

1796
02:19:46,494 --> 02:19:51,633
resourcing of a hub? I don't read the legislation

1797
02:19:51,633 --> 02:19:54,736
that way. That's why we're here.

1798
02:19:54,736 --> 02:19:58,400
to explore that. I don't think that being having

1799
02:19:58,400 --> 02:20:02,311
to have celebrate av permit holders where they share one

1800
02:20:02,311 --> 02:20:05,914
site and they have their charging infrastructure and

1801
02:20:05,914 --> 02:20:10,714
different pieces there. They take advantage of multiple

1802
02:20:11,119 --> 02:20:13,988
companies pooling in one resource they're all going to

1803
02:20:13,988 --> 02:20:15,657
draw from. I don't think the legislation

1804
02:20:15,657 --> 02:20:18,127
prohibits that. It's more about the direct

1805
02:20:18,127 --> 02:20:23,527
management of the fleet. Really good testimony from the

1806
02:20:23,665 --> 02:20:25,868
first panel. >> I kind of really thought it

1807
02:20:25,868 --> 02:20:29,338
was a great job done on the first panel highlighting the

1808
02:20:29,338 --> 02:20:34,609
need for the hybrid model. It's just about making sure that

1809
02:20:34,609 --> 02:20:40,148
we're, d.c. Making it accessible for all type of models.

1810
02:20:40,148 --> 02:20:42,884
it's more of the legislative certainty that is looking

1811
02:20:42,884 --> 02:20:48,290
forward within this legislation. We want to continue to have

1812
02:20:48,290 --> 02:20:50,290
conversations.

1813
02:21:01,970 --> 02:21:05,570
conversation >> mr. Flores, you said you

1814
02:21:06,375 --> 02:21:10,846
don't want d.c. To be outlier. >> for now.

1815
02:21:10,846 --> 02:21:14,783
>> I would reframe it. I don't want us to be an

1816
02:21:14,783 --> 02:21:16,783
outlayer. -- outlier.

1817
02:21:18,353 --> 02:21:22,657
I want us to be the leader. We're not just another city.

1818
02:21:22,657 --> 02:21:26,328
we're the nation's capitol. Everybody is watching what we do

1819
02:21:26,328 --> 02:21:28,330
with this legislation. Whatever this council passes.

1820
02:21:28,330 --> 02:21:30,932
if the council passes legislation, whatever version of

1821
02:21:30,932 --> 02:21:34,136
it, other cities around the entire country are going to be

1822
02:21:34,136 --> 02:21:36,405
looking at what we do. We all know, we live it

1823
02:21:36,405 --> 02:21:39,140
everyday. Sometimes we're the district of

1824
02:21:39,140 --> 02:21:42,740
columbia and sometimes the nation's capitol.

1825
02:21:47,297 --> 02:21:52,168
>> I'm glad you brought that up. We are looking for the district

1826
02:21:52,168 --> 02:21:57,707
to be a leader and for other jurisdictions, states, counties,

1827
02:21:57,707 --> 02:22:01,911
whatever it is to copy what the district did and how well they

1828
02:22:01,911 --> 02:22:03,546
put it together. >> I agree.

1829
02:22:03,546 --> 02:22:06,516
let me go to one of the recommendations you had.

1830
02:22:06,516 --> 02:22:09,516
which I respectfully disagree with.

1831
02:22:11,387 --> 02:22:16,459
vnt it is an important component of the legislation.

1832
02:22:16,459 --> 02:22:20,659
right now, waymo operates in all electorate.

1833
02:22:21,997 --> 02:22:28,597
electric -- -- electric fleet. They don't pay a gas tax.

1834
02:22:29,720 --> 02:22:33,272
why would I exempt them from that?

1835
02:22:33,877 --> 02:22:41,677
why would I exempt them from other fees insu insu and -- sur.

1836
02:22:46,489 --> 02:22:51,360
if I move to push trip charge, I'm not getting my other policy

1837
02:22:51,360 --> 02:22:53,363
goals. I want to reduce deadheading.

1838
02:22:53,363 --> 02:22:59,363
I want to reduce amount of time vehicle adding congestion.

1839
02:23:01,304 --> 02:23:06,420
I don't assume that a vmt gets passed on to the rider.

1840
02:23:06,420 --> 02:23:09,979
why should it? The companies at this table

1841
02:23:09,979 --> 02:23:15,979
tesla was sitting in that seat. Waymo owned by alphabet.

1842
02:23:20,390 --> 02:23:22,792
these are not nonprofit organizations.

1843
02:23:22,792 --> 02:23:26,196
they are here to make money and a profit.

1844
02:23:26,196 --> 02:23:31,868
why would I be concerned that they wouldn't be able to absorb

1845
02:23:31,868 --> 02:23:34,404
fairly modest charge to make sure we're achieving policy

1846
02:23:34,404 --> 02:23:37,404
goals? I'm going to wager.

1847
02:23:38,341 --> 02:23:41,210
none us want to see more congestion added.

1848
02:23:41,210 --> 02:23:46,416
we can use policy ideas to try to help manage the impact on

1849
02:23:46,416 --> 02:23:49,552
congestion as well as make up for we're not going to get gas

1850
02:23:49,552 --> 02:23:55,892
tax on a vehicle like that. Why should I exempt them from a

1851
02:23:55,892 --> 02:23:57,627
vm -- from that type of surcharge?

1852
02:23:57,627 --> 02:24:02,427
>> it's not that it's been exempt from vmt.

1853
02:24:03,232 --> 02:24:05,968
the federal government has been looking at it because we are

1854
02:24:05,968 --> 02:24:11,307
more electric vehicles and more electric vehicles will grow into

1855
02:24:11,307 --> 02:24:15,645
the population that come into the city as well they're not

1856
02:24:15,645 --> 02:24:19,716
waymos. Waymo is going to be a very

1857
02:24:19,716 --> 02:24:22,652
small number of electrical vehicles that the ones that come

1858
02:24:22,652 --> 02:24:27,924
in the city. What keeps you from taxing other

1859
02:24:27,924 --> 02:24:33,924
ones that come in here. The federal government is the

1860
02:24:33,996 --> 02:24:39,996
one working towards this because we need the transportation trust

1861
02:24:40,269 --> 02:24:47,210
fund to stay -- to have funding for us to fix infrastructure.

1862
02:24:47,210 --> 02:24:53,683
the way it is coming right now that is going to be piecemeal I

1863
02:24:53,683 --> 02:24:57,487
will say. If you look into that, I think

1864
02:24:57,487 --> 02:25:02,358
it will be good thing to reconsider how you approaching

1865
02:25:02,358 --> 02:25:04,894
that. How the federal government will

1866
02:25:04,894 --> 02:25:09,565
come with that number. >> I think all these fleets thus

1867
02:25:09,565 --> 02:25:13,703
far, I think out a trend that will continue are electric.

1868
02:25:13,703 --> 02:25:17,903
waymos are all electric. Obviously tesla electric.

1869
02:25:21,440 --> 02:25:22,645
that's what the fleet we're going to see.

1870
02:25:22,645 --> 02:25:27,117
they're not going to pay a gas tax.

1871
02:25:27,117 --> 02:25:31,121
I do agree with you. Let's for the sake of argument

1872
02:25:31,121 --> 02:25:36,521
pretend we keep the 200 cap. 200 vehicles is not even

1873
02:25:36,659 --> 02:25:37,927
remotely. It's a fraction of a fraction of

1874
02:25:37,927 --> 02:25:39,862
total number of vehicles on the roadway.

1875
02:25:39,862 --> 02:25:44,901
it begins to start the conversation as we are seeing

1876
02:25:44,901 --> 02:25:48,337
greater and greater uptick of electric vehicle.

1877
02:25:48,337 --> 02:25:53,944
we're going to have more vmt conversation how do you create

1878
02:25:53,944 --> 02:25:57,147
parity between those two. I think that the legislation is

1879
02:25:57,147 --> 02:26:01,947
very important from the standpoint of working with

1880
02:26:03,386 --> 02:26:05,889
innovation and technology. Which the district should be a

1881
02:26:05,889 --> 02:26:11,289
leader on. I don't think 15 cents vmt is a

1882
02:26:12,940 --> 02:26:14,764
deal breaker for being in place of innovation.

1883
02:26:14,764 --> 02:26:19,436
I think it it's a mart policy choice.

1884
02:26:19,436 --> 02:26:22,639
again, I know everybody at this table cares about making sure

1885
02:26:22,639 --> 02:26:26,843
that we reduce congestion in our roadway and we help make sure we

1886
02:26:26,843 --> 02:26:30,246
get around. That's part of what I think

1887
02:26:30,246 --> 02:26:34,918
allows us to help create a financial disincentive to adding

1888
02:26:34,918 --> 02:26:37,253
to that deadheading and that congestion.

1889
02:26:37,253 --> 02:26:39,655
we're going to take a feedback from today's hearing.

1890
02:26:39,655 --> 02:26:41,925
keep working with stakeholders around this.

1891
02:26:41,925 --> 02:26:45,261
that is one where I think a lot of the points in several of you

1892
02:26:45,261 --> 02:26:48,731
hit on the same recommendations, there are several of them that

1893
02:26:48,731 --> 02:26:53,269
make some sense. We'll work with you on that one.

1894
02:26:53,269 --> 02:26:55,138
vmt probably not going to agree on that one.

1895
02:26:55,138 --> 02:26:58,808
I do think it's an important policy goal we trying to achieve

1896
02:26:58,808 --> 02:27:00,743
with that. Anything else that you wanted to

1897
02:27:00,743 --> 02:27:03,743
add on that regard? Okay.

1898
02:27:09,285 --> 02:27:12,885
mr. Gordon. You're a huge hub.

1899
02:27:14,424 --> 02:27:18,561
monumental in capital arena. 200 plus events per year.

1900
02:27:18,561 --> 02:27:21,564
crucially important. Sitting right on top of metro.

1901
02:27:21,564 --> 02:27:26,964
which is great. For those that aren't, what are

1902
02:27:29,305 --> 02:27:34,977
the types of things you would think monumental -- we talked

1903
02:27:34,977 --> 02:27:37,613
about curbside management -- I asked earlier the first panel,

1904
02:27:37,613 --> 02:27:41,250
as someone who will jump in uber or lyft, fairly reasonable

1905
02:27:41,250 --> 02:27:45,540
expectation in my experience that the vehicle, the driver is

1906
02:27:45,540 --> 02:27:48,724
going to stop it's not going to always have a curb space to pull

1907
02:27:48,724 --> 02:27:51,394
over to. I'm going to be able to hop out

1908
02:27:51,394 --> 02:27:54,994
quickly. Oftentimes the driver looking in

1909
02:27:57,546 --> 02:27:59,281
the mirror. What would be your expectation

1910
02:27:59,281 --> 02:28:02,885
or maybe your desire from a curbside management for

1911
02:28:02,885 --> 02:28:07,685
autonomous vehicles? Do you want to see dedicated

1912
02:28:07,690 --> 02:28:10,920
curb space just for av's to pull up to?

1913
02:28:10,920 --> 02:28:16,920
what would help make that work for at monumental with

1914
02:28:16,465 --> 02:28:18,834
>> first thing we walk back original point.

1915
02:28:18,834 --> 02:28:22,772
we encourage rideshare and metro for everyone coming to a concert

1916
02:28:22,772 --> 02:28:26,375
or a game. Reason being, it will reduce

1917
02:28:26,375 --> 02:28:29,778
congestion in downtown. Second is, our parking garage is

1918
02:28:29,778 --> 02:28:32,914
very limited. Even through our renovation, we

1919
02:28:32,914 --> 02:28:38,914
can't expand because of the old metro building next door.

1920
02:28:39,822 --> 02:28:44,659
we would want to work with the department to make sure that we

1921
02:28:44,659 --> 02:28:48,197
have a dedicated space. We do that now for uber and lyft

1922
02:28:48,197 --> 02:28:53,690
and other rideshare. You try to get at uber or lyft

1923
02:28:53,690 --> 02:29:00,142
to capital one arena, it can't drop you off on f or sixth

1924
02:29:00,142 --> 02:29:03,612
street. A dedicated place for rideshare.

1925
02:29:03,612 --> 02:29:06,348
which is important for curbside management.

1926
02:29:06,348 --> 02:29:10,153
it does create that long line of cars stopping in the military of

1927
02:29:10,153 --> 02:29:16,753
the -- middle of the street. That's our outlook for av

1928
02:29:17,360 --> 02:29:21,497
vehicle, av is to have a dedicated space along with other

1929
02:29:21,497 --> 02:29:24,497
ridesharing. >> from your experience, or

1930
02:29:24,767 --> 02:29:29,839
maybe if you talked to other colleagues that started to

1931
02:29:29,839 --> 02:29:34,390
implement this, do those have main venues?

1932
02:29:34,977 --> 02:29:41,650
do they create that type of -- I don't know if I'm using the

1933
02:29:41,650 --> 02:29:45,787
right terminology -- geofencing for ubers and lyfts.

1934
02:29:45,787 --> 02:29:47,790
do they geofence autonomous vehicles in the same space.

1935
02:29:47,790 --> 02:29:51,594
would it make sense to have autonomous vehicles geofenced

1936
02:29:51,594 --> 02:29:54,864
for pick-up and dropoff in one location.

1937
02:29:54,864 --> 02:29:58,934
>> you're asking great question. I need to talk to our folks

1938
02:29:58,934 --> 02:30:00,934
chase center c1

1939
02:30:06,800 --> 02:30:08,844
from our experience, just look and, like we said earlier, we

1940
02:30:08,844 --> 02:30:11,800
are a unique city. We are not new york city or san

1941
02:30:11,800 --> 02:30:13,949
francisco. So the approach is like apples

1942
02:30:13,949 --> 02:30:19,349
to oranges. I would check with our team, our

1943
02:30:19,422 --> 02:30:21,823
colleagues, to see how they manage it.

1944
02:30:21,823 --> 02:30:26,620
from here covered may be a dedicated place.

1945
02:30:26,620 --> 02:30:30,834
>> yes, it would be helpful. >> are utilized waymo for the

1946
02:30:30,834 --> 02:30:38,340
first time in san francisco for all-star game a couple of years

1947
02:30:38,400 --> 02:30:41,400
ago. Much more vehicular and

1948
02:30:41,243 --> 02:30:45,715
pedestrian traffic. I use uber to get there.

1949
02:30:45,715 --> 02:30:52,254
the drop off zone was different, where I had to meet the waymo

1950
02:30:52,254 --> 02:30:55,254
vehicle. Completely different zones, but

1951
02:30:57,793 --> 02:31:03,193
it was easy. >> I would be curious as we

1952
02:31:04,133 --> 02:31:10,500
learned in other places, what are pros and cons, even mixing

1953
02:31:10,500 --> 02:31:13,609
uber and left and one space corps it doesn't make sense to

1954
02:31:13,609 --> 02:31:19,609
have them in two separate spaces to manage that differently?

1955
02:31:19,682 --> 02:31:24,482
that would be helpful. From a workforce perspective,

1956
02:31:28,190 --> 02:31:30,626
any recommendations you have? Should we be saying a certain

1957
02:31:30,626 --> 02:31:33,929
number of jobs have to be d.c. Residents?

1958
02:31:33,929 --> 02:31:37,566
is there a number of jobs has to be transitioned from previous

1959
02:31:37,566 --> 02:31:40,302
drivers? What are recommendations you

1960
02:31:40,302 --> 02:31:46,902
have, not just here is an investment in innovation, a good

1961
02:31:47,576 --> 02:31:50,847
thing in business economy overall, but any recommendations

1962
02:31:50,847 --> 02:31:58,470
about how you ensure those are d.c. Jobs, careers, you heard

1963
02:31:58,320 --> 02:32:01,320
outreach to create training programs.

1964
02:32:03,250 --> 02:32:05,828
he worked a lot thinking through how to create a business and

1965
02:32:05,828 --> 02:32:07,463
workforce. If there's anything you want to

1966
02:32:07,463 --> 02:32:09,999
add in that regard? >> absolutely.

1967
02:32:09,999 --> 02:32:16,405
as a d.c. Resident, I do believe we should work together on

1968
02:32:16,405 --> 02:32:20,809
strategies and workforce transitions and insure d.c.

1969
02:32:20,809 --> 02:32:24,346
residents, there are a portion of jobs allocated for residents.

1970
02:32:24,346 --> 02:32:29,746
as we try to fashion attracting businesses and retaining

1971
02:32:34,756 --> 02:32:36,625
businesses. I do think it is important for

1972
02:32:36,625 --> 02:32:42,625
businesses of all sizes, this will help strengthen our value,

1973
02:32:48,170 --> 02:32:54,770
but workforce is cash our shortcake job or at least even

1974
02:32:54,776 --> 02:32:58,976
considered as transitions from other rideshare companies.

1975
02:33:01,817 --> 02:33:06,617
>> I know you had a note about timeline.

1976
02:33:06,755 --> 02:33:13,355
I will just share, if we assume, best case scenario, the

1977
02:33:17,333 --> 02:33:24,533
legislation happens in the fall, soon -- assume it is signed by

1978
02:33:24,806 --> 02:33:29,611
the mayor, doesn't take effect until the spring of 2027.

1979
02:33:29,611 --> 02:33:35,110
there is other continue to testing and another piece.

1980
02:33:35,818 --> 02:33:41,818
it feels a long way off from the legislative calendar.

1981
02:33:43,425 --> 02:33:49,565
part of what I was hoping to do, we also want to give some

1982
02:33:49,565 --> 02:33:54,360
certainty to companies thinking, am I going to invest and is this

1983
02:33:54,360 --> 02:33:57,106
the investment I want to make in the district, creating the

1984
02:33:57,106 --> 02:34:04,257
workforce in the jobs, so part of it is trying to give some

1985
02:34:04,257 --> 02:34:05,991
certainty to folks where the last couple of years are defined

1986
02:34:05,991 --> 02:34:08,994
by uncertainty. That is the goal.

1987
02:34:08,994 --> 02:34:11,864
we will take the feedback and look at it.

1988
02:34:11,864 --> 02:34:16,535
that is one legislative gold. Creates certainty in a space

1989
02:34:16,535 --> 02:34:19,938
that has felt like nothing in it -- but a couple of years of

1990
02:34:19,938 --> 02:34:24,138
uncertainty. That is difficult when trying to

1991
02:34:24,143 --> 02:34:26,543
attract. I appreciate everyone's

1992
02:34:26,746 --> 02:34:27,613
testimony. Thank you very much.

1993
02:34:27,613 --> 02:34:31,813
thank you. Let's look to panel number

1994
02:34:33,953 --> 02:34:37,553
three. Let me call will hubbard,

1995
02:34:37,957 --> 02:34:41,961
christopher nace with the trial lawyers association metropolitan

1996
02:34:41,961 --> 02:34:46,761
washington dc, I have drew. I mispronounce that.

1997
02:34:50,837 --> 02:34:55,637
president of advocates for highway and auto safety.

1998
02:35:03,850 --> 02:35:06,452
drew, I apologize. I mispronounced her last name.

1999
02:35:06,452 --> 02:35:13,520
can you say it for me again? Thank you very much.

2000
02:35:14,827 --> 02:35:19,998
with a last name like alan, it is pretty boring.

2001
02:35:19,998 --> 02:35:26,439
we called kathryn chase but I don't think catherine is here.

2002
02:35:26,439 --> 02:35:28,941
we can come back to catherine later she will join us.

2003
02:35:28,941 --> 02:35:32,211
we will start with you. >> good morning, chairman and

2004
02:35:32,211 --> 02:35:37,110
members of the committee. My name is will.

2005
02:35:38,451 --> 02:35:41,220
I am professor of baltimore school of law.

2006
02:35:41,220 --> 02:35:44,820
my academic research focuses on regulation.

2007
02:35:45,124 --> 02:35:49,924
I am here in my individual academic capacity.

2008
02:35:50,263 --> 02:35:54,434
I support the passage of the act and want to highlight two key

2009
02:35:54,434 --> 02:35:58,571
points today. As an innovation scholar, I

2010
02:35:58,571 --> 02:36:03,371
applied attempts for deployment of d.c. Technologies.

2011
02:36:03,443 --> 02:36:07,980
80's have great potential to keep roads safer,

2012
02:36:07,980 --> 02:36:09,248
transportation, and driving hassles.

2013
02:36:09,248 --> 02:36:14,587
I want to highlight and support an aspect of the act.

2014
02:36:14,587 --> 02:36:20,193
the definition of driver to be applied is a critical issue in

2015
02:36:20,193 --> 02:36:21,995
every jurisdiction including the district has enacted numerous

2016
02:36:21,995 --> 02:36:27,399
laws to ensure that motor vehicles operate in a safe and

2017
02:36:27,399 --> 02:36:29,802
predictable fashion. Many of the laws like speed

2018
02:36:29,802 --> 02:36:32,337
limits are familiar to anyone who drives.

2019
02:36:32,337 --> 02:36:37,137
importantly, these often target the conduct of drivers.

2020
02:36:37,877 --> 02:36:43,150
d.c. Law states, drivers of vehicles proceeding in opposite

2021
02:36:43,150 --> 02:36:46,686
directions shall pass each other to the right.

2022
02:36:46,686 --> 02:36:49,421
these rules of the road established legal standards for

2023
02:36:49,421 --> 02:36:53,960
operating motor vehicles and identify a person who is legally

2024
02:36:53,960 --> 02:36:59,310
responsible for violations. It is the driver who gets the

2025
02:36:59,310 --> 02:37:04,431
ticket for speeding and the driver who gets pursued.

2026
02:37:04,970 --> 02:37:08,175
this -- the driver to operate in compliance with the law.

2027
02:37:08,175 --> 02:37:12,845
the meeting with the term driver is not clear when applied to

2028
02:37:12,845 --> 02:37:14,781
80's. The whole point is to relieve

2029
02:37:14,781 --> 02:37:18,584
humans of many tasks we think of with driving.

2030
02:37:18,584 --> 02:37:22,540
consequently, updating the meaning of the word driver is a

2031
02:37:22,540 --> 02:37:25,324
crucial step in developing effective laws for 80's.

2032
02:37:25,324 --> 02:37:29,194
the act addresses this issue and two provisions.

2033
02:37:29,194 --> 02:37:34,266
for commercial 80's, entity has obtained a commercial 80's

2034
02:37:34,266 --> 02:37:37,266
permit. Using a permit registration

2035
02:37:50,490 --> 02:37:53,649
system should be considered best practice.

2036
02:37:55,288 --> 02:38:00,688
regarding drivers, clearly identifies who would be legal --

2037
02:38:01,694 --> 02:38:05,894
legally responsible if the laws were violated.

2038
02:38:06,632 --> 02:38:12,632
already adopted in three states. I also highlighted a looming

2039
02:38:20,246 --> 02:38:24,446
problem with the implementation for private 80's.

2040
02:38:26,419 --> 02:38:29,522
I or the act in its current form largely because other issues can

2041
02:38:29,522 --> 02:38:32,858
be addressed down the road, so to speak.

2042
02:38:32,858 --> 02:38:36,796
I am happy to answer any questions.

2043
02:38:36,796 --> 02:38:41,596
>> thank you very much. >> good morning, chairperson and

2044
02:38:45,370 --> 02:38:50,900
members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to

2045
02:38:50,900 --> 02:38:54,209
testify on bill 26-68 four, autonomous authorization

2046
02:38:55,280 --> 02:39:00,680
amendment act of 2026. I am an attorney practiced and

2047
02:39:01,870 --> 02:39:04,423
resided in the district of columbia for more than a decade.

2048
02:39:04,423 --> 02:39:08,627
I am testifying in my capacity as president of the trial

2049
02:39:08,627 --> 02:39:12,831
lawyers association in washington, d.c., or tl d.c. For

2050
02:39:12,831 --> 02:39:14,330
short. It is comprised of more than 500

2051
02:39:14,330 --> 02:39:18,233
members. All of whom advocate for victims

2052
02:39:18,404 --> 02:39:22,410
of negligence and civil wrongdoing in the district,

2053
02:39:22,410 --> 02:39:26,212
including those injured on d.c. Roadways.

2054
02:39:26,212 --> 02:39:28,981
as an organization, the top priority is ensuring that

2055
02:39:28,981 --> 02:39:34,981
victims of negligence and their families have fair and equitable

2056
02:39:35,854 --> 02:39:37,256
access to justice through our court system, and appropriate

2057
02:39:37,256 --> 02:39:38,724
recourse when they suffer loss at the hands of individuals and

2058
02:39:38,724 --> 02:39:42,461
corporations who act unlawfully. We start from the recognition

2059
02:39:42,461 --> 02:39:46,610
that autonomous vehicle technology is here.

2060
02:39:47,650 --> 02:39:53,650
avs are present on our roads today, and we strongly

2061
02:39:58,770 --> 02:39:59,479
assume, and, I think, safely assume, that this technology

2062
02:39:59,479 --> 02:40:00,679
will become more and more commonplace.

2063
02:40:00,679 --> 02:40:01,880
in the face of this rapidly advancing technology, we believe

2064
02:40:01,880 --> 02:40:03,882
it is the responsibility of this body to ensure that strong

2065
02:40:03,882 --> 02:40:06,170
protections exist for all road users-drivers, passengers,

2066
02:40:06,170 --> 02:40:09,617
bicyclists, and pedestrians alike-through public policy.

2067
02:40:25,846 --> 02:40:26,981
chairperson allen, we have worked closely with your office

2068
02:40:26,981 --> 02:40:28,715
to ensure that this bill provides appropriate avenues of

2069
02:40:28,715 --> 02:40:29,718
redress for victims of av-involved crashes, and we

2070
02:40:29,718 --> 02:40:30,851
sincerely appreciate your commitment to this critical

2071
02:40:30,851 --> 02:40:31,986
public safety issue. In addition to ensuring that

2072
02:40:31,986 --> 02:40:33,320
victims and their families have proper recourse, the bill needs

2073
02:40:33,320 --> 02:40:37,992
robust and clear standards for determining when and how

2074
02:40:37,992 --> 02:40:39,927
autonomous vehicles can take to our streets, and what guardrails

2075
02:40:39,927 --> 02:40:43,330
should be in place to reduce instances of injury or death.

2076
02:40:43,330 --> 02:40:48,730
for the purpose of determining civil liability for an

2077
02:40:49,937 --> 02:40:54,737
av-involved crash, the tla-dc has consistently held the

2078
02:40:58,479 --> 02:41:00,147
position that the bill must make clear who is responsible for the

2079
02:41:00,147 --> 02:41:01,482
behavior of an autonomous vehicle.

2080
02:41:01,482 --> 02:41:05,682
public policy makers, researchers, and the american

2081
02:41:05,887 --> 02:41:07,210
association for justice (aaj) agree: in order to ensure

2082
02:41:07,210 --> 02:41:11,221
accountability when an autonomous vehicle violates the

2083
02:41:12,560 --> 02:41:13,761
law and injures someone, av companies must be considered

2084
02:41:13,761 --> 02:41:19,161
"drivers" under the law. In this bill, the autonomous

2085
02:41:35,783 --> 02:41:36,918
driving system manufacturer is considered the driver of the av

2086
02:41:36,918 --> 02:41:39,987
for such purposes-a best practice we fully support.

2087
02:41:39,987 --> 02:41:41,188
but from a public safety perspective, the tla-dc believes

2088
02:41:41,188 --> 02:41:41,924
the bill is in need of improvement.

2089
02:41:41,924 --> 02:41:42,991
in the first instance, autonomous vehicles should be

2090
02:41:42,991 --> 02:41:44,725
required, unequivocally, to follow all traffic safety laws

2091
02:41:44,725 --> 02:41:46,600
to operate in the district. It is crucial that the bill is

2092
02:41:46,600 --> 02:41:52,660
explicit about this requirement. To that end, the law should not

2093
02:42:03,811 --> 02:42:06,413
settle for avs being merely as safe as "the human driver of

2094
02:42:06,413 --> 02:42:07,482
average competence," an ambiguous standard that the bill

2095
02:42:07,482 --> 02:42:09,283
references when defining what constitutes an unreasonable risk

2096
02:42:09,283 --> 02:42:10,552
to public safety. To set the bar so low is to

2097
02:42:10,552 --> 02:42:12,686
normalize the high volume of crashes, road deaths, and

2098
02:42:12,686 --> 02:42:18,860
serious injuries that we have today in the district.

2099
02:42:26,767 --> 02:42:28,102
it is to accept much less than the promise made to us by av

2100
02:42:28,102 --> 02:42:30,370
companies, and to needlessly put human lives at risk.

2101
02:42:30,370 --> 02:42:31,172
we ask that the committee reconsider this language and

2102
02:42:31,172 --> 02:42:32,306
make much clearer the safety expectations that we have for

2103
02:42:32,306 --> 02:42:35,777
avs in our community. On the back end, a safety

2104
02:42:35,777 --> 02:42:40,381
enforcement mechanism should be indispensable to this bill.

2105
02:42:40,381 --> 02:42:41,916
in our view, this legislation lacks appropriate enforcement

2106
02:42:41,916 --> 02:42:43,317
and escalation for those av companies that violate the

2107
02:42:43,317 --> 02:42:45,319
traffic laws of the district. We recommend the creation of an

2108
02:42:45,319 --> 02:42:47,589
escalation structure that provides clear warnings,

2109
02:42:47,589 --> 02:42:51,789
opportunities for remediation, and ultimately, cancellation of

2110
02:43:11,678 --> 02:43:13,800
permits for those who refuse remediation or whose remediation

2111
02:43:13,800 --> 02:43:14,214
is insufficient. Specifically, we recommend that

2112
02:43:14,214 --> 02:43:15,149
an enforcement and accountability framework

2113
02:43:15,149 --> 02:43:15,884
include: 1. A formal review by an

2114
02:43:15,884 --> 02:43:17,284
independent regulatory agency when violations cross a certain

2115
02:43:17,284 --> 02:43:19,860
threshold, or when a serious violation occurs.

2116
02:43:19,860 --> 02:43:20,289
2. Suspending the permittee's

2117
02:43:20,289 --> 02:43:21,622
authorization when violations go uncorrected or exceed allowable

2118
02:43:21,622 --> 02:43:22,490
levels. 3.

2119
02:43:22,490 --> 02:43:23,824
revoking authorization when suspension fails to produce

2120
02:43:23,824 --> 02:43:29,224
improvement, or when serious failures are found to be

2121
02:43:30,564 --> 02:43:32,900
systemic. My colleague, christopher nace,

2122
02:43:32,900 --> 02:43:34,435
is prepared to testify about some of the tla-dc's additional

2123
02:43:34,435 --> 02:43:36,571
positions with respect to this bill.

2124
02:43:36,571 --> 02:43:38,839
in the meantime, I thank you again for your dedication to

2125
02:43:38,839 --> 02:43:40,507
this issue and your work on this legislation.

2126
02:43:40,507 --> 02:43:41,976
I look forward to answering any questions you have.

2127
02:43:41,976 --> 02:43:43,976
thank you. >> thank.

2128
02:43:50,510 --> 02:43:54,851
mr. Nace. >> my law firm is a dc-based

2129
02:43:57,992 --> 02:44:01,529
small business but I am testifying today as co-fit --

2130
02:44:01,529 --> 02:44:06,929
cochair of the d.c. Trial lawyer -- committee.

2131
02:44:26,200 --> 02:44:27,555
-- my name is christopher nace, and I am testifying today as

2132
02:44:27,555 --> 02:44:28,756
legislative chair of the trial lawyers association of

2133
02:44:28,756 --> 02:44:30,690
metropolitan washington, d.c. Our organization represents

2134
02:44:30,690 --> 02:44:31,693
attorneys who advocate for injured people and their

2135
02:44:31,693 --> 02:44:32,761
families in the district's courts.

2136
02:44:32,761 --> 02:44:34,495
in reality, our voice, is for citizens of the district and

2137
02:44:34,495 --> 02:44:36,364
victims of negligence. We come to testify on matters

2138
02:44:36,364 --> 02:44:37,698
that effect the safety of district families

2139
02:44:37,698 --> 02:44:38,832
I want to be clear at the outset: tla-dc takes no position

2140
02:44:38,832 --> 02:44:40,834
today on whether autonomous vehicles should operate in the

2141
02:44:40,834 --> 02:44:41,570
district. Our comments are limited

2142
02:44:41,570 --> 02:44:42,837
entirely to the liability framework in this bill - what

2143
02:44:42,837 --> 02:44:46,437
happens after an av hurts someone.

2144
02:44:47,307 --> 02:44:50,430
when a human driver injures someone, the victim knows who to

2145
02:44:50,430 --> 02:44:54,116
sue, has a license plate and insurance card to work from, and

2146
02:44:54,116 --> 02:44:58,510
can get a police report within days.

2147
02:44:58,510 --> 02:45:01,989
avs remove the human from that equation, and this bill needs to

2148
02:45:01,989 --> 02:45:05,993
replace those basic building blocks of a lawsuit with

2149
02:45:05,993 --> 02:45:07,528
equivalent, or better, tools. In several respects it does: a

2150
02:45:07,528 --> 02:45:12,928
real insurance floor, a ban on forced arbitration for

2151
02:45:13,934 --> 02:45:15,700
commercial riders, and, for privately owned avs, a direct

2152
02:45:15,700 --> 02:45:17,710
claims process against the manufacturer with a data-based

2153
02:45:17,710 --> 02:45:21,750
presumption of engagement and no need to plead a product defect.

2154
02:45:21,750 --> 02:45:23,143
that framework, in section 3j, is the model, and our first ask

2155
02:45:23,143 --> 02:45:28,543
is that the council pass it. Second, data transparency.

2156
02:45:59,447 --> 02:46:00,781
plaintiffs' attorneys in states that already permit avs report

2157
02:46:00,781 --> 02:46:02,490
spending years just trying to access crash data, because those

2158
02:46:02,490 --> 02:46:05,490
states never required real disclosure.

2159
02:46:42,280 --> 02:46:43,498
this bill should require av companies to submit the full,

2160
02:46:43,498 --> 02:46:44,765
unredacted federal standard general order data, made

2161
02:46:44,765 --> 02:46:46,100
available to the public. Each vehicle should also carry a

2162
02:46:46,100 --> 02:46:47,501
separate, read-only sensor recorder capturing at least 30

2163
02:46:47,501 --> 02:46:48,637
seconds before any crash, retained until extracted by

2164
02:46:48,637 --> 02:46:49,970
appropriate agencies, and available to plaintiffs in

2165
02:46:49,970 --> 02:46:50,704
litigation. Third, insurance.

2166
02:46:50,704 --> 02:46:51,905
we're glad the bill sets a $5 million floor, but permit

2167
02:46:51,905 --> 02:46:55,108
holders should also be required to carry $5 million in uninsured

2168
02:46:55,108 --> 02:46:57,845
and underinsured motorist coverage, since many av riders

2169
02:46:57,845 --> 02:46:59,113
don't own cars and have no other policy to fall back on if an

2170
02:46:59,113 --> 02:47:02,713
at-fault third party has no coverage.

2171
02:47:03,117 --> 02:47:04,510
finally, data privacy and passenger safety.

2172
02:47:04,510 --> 02:47:05,252
a vehicle that collects this much information about where

2173
02:47:05,252 --> 02:47:08,456
people go and what they do needs enforceable privacy protections,

2174
02:47:08,456 --> 02:47:14,461
not a handshake, and companies -- we had some questions and

2175
02:47:14,461 --> 02:47:18,650
answers on this earlier today. So that is something we want to

2176
02:47:18,650 --> 02:47:21,335
make sure remains at the forefront of the committee's

2177
02:47:21,335 --> 02:47:25,439
thoughts. In sum, the promise of avs is

2178
02:47:25,439 --> 02:47:27,740
still just a promise - we have heard similar promises before,

2179
02:47:27,740 --> 02:47:29,743
from other technology companies, that did not survive contact

2180
02:47:29,743 --> 02:47:35,743
with the market. If the district is going to let

2181
02:47:38,619 --> 02:47:40,488
autonomous vehicles operate, this committee should make sure

2182
02:47:40,488 --> 02:47:42,289
the liability rules hold companies to those promises.

2183
02:47:42,289 --> 02:47:44,225
we look forward to working with your office on the specific

2184
02:47:44,225 --> 02:47:45,930
language. Thank you, and I am happy to

2185
02:47:45,930 --> 02:47:47,493
answer any questions. >> excellent.

2186
02:47:56,370 --> 02:48:00,570
thank you all very much. Let's see.

2187
02:48:01,575 --> 02:48:06,247
let me start with you. He joined with roundtables a few

2188
02:48:06,247 --> 02:48:12,987
years ago on the same topic. How do you resolve the legal

2189
02:48:12,987 --> 02:48:18,387
uncertainties within the law. From your testimony, it sounds

2190
02:48:18,426 --> 02:48:23,597
like this legibly -- legislation largely is successful resolving

2191
02:48:23,597 --> 02:48:28,602
those issues, is that a fair characterization, in terms of

2192
02:48:28,602 --> 02:48:29,604
defining driver? Collects the short answer is

2193
02:48:29,604 --> 02:48:33,140
yes. I think this should be enacted.

2194
02:48:33,140 --> 02:48:39,740
there is a looming problem with implementing the bill level is

2195
02:48:54,662 --> 02:48:57,980
fraught with all kinds of challenges.

2196
02:48:57,980 --> 02:49:00,901
the level cannot be determined through technological testing.

2197
02:49:00,901 --> 02:49:06,390
the same standard that defines the levels also says as a

2198
02:49:06,390 --> 02:49:10,430
practical matter, it is not possible to describe or specify

2199
02:49:10,430 --> 02:49:14,581
a complete test that could comply to a feature to

2200
02:49:14,581 --> 02:49:19,653
conclusively identify or verify its level of driving automation.

2201
02:49:19,653 --> 02:49:25,392
a single av might be level two and one contacts like high-speed

2202
02:49:25,392 --> 02:49:29,463
traveling on highway and three on another context, like driving

2203
02:49:29,463 --> 02:49:32,600
in a parking lot. That is why the sae

2204
02:49:32,600 --> 02:49:37,204
classifications refer to features, but the act refers to

2205
02:49:37,204 --> 02:49:39,673
the avs itself as having a single level.

2206
02:49:39,673 --> 02:49:44,744
it is not clear for purposes of the act how you would categorize

2207
02:49:44,744 --> 02:49:47,815
this. The act suggests many factors

2208
02:49:47,815 --> 02:49:51,351
might self serve fight and identify at the level of the

2209
02:49:51,351 --> 02:49:53,220
vehicle. I think this would work well.

2210
02:49:53,220 --> 02:49:57,424
when there is no human sitting behind a steering wheel, there

2211
02:49:57,424 --> 02:50:01,562
will generally be gnosis -- notice for this say vehicle

2212
02:50:01,562 --> 02:50:04,765
subject to the act. Where it gets harder is

2213
02:50:04,765 --> 02:50:08,965
distinguishing between level to and level three.

2214
02:50:09,169 --> 02:50:13,574
av companies might assert to regulators that privately owned

2215
02:50:13,574 --> 02:50:16,109
vehicles particularly are only level two, thereby avoiding the

2216
02:50:16,109 --> 02:50:18,512
regulatory structures of the act.

2217
02:50:18,512 --> 02:50:22,383
but those companies can then advertise vehicles to consumers

2218
02:50:22,383 --> 02:50:26,530
with terms that imply greater levels of autonomy like

2219
02:50:26,530 --> 02:50:29,653
self-driving or autonomous, something like that.

2220
02:50:30,256 --> 02:50:34,962
the problem is being dumped in the literature at level two.

2221
02:50:34,962 --> 02:50:40,134
the act limits the loophole by imposing spots on av companies

2222
02:50:40,134 --> 02:50:44,204
that do not register, but the act does not address how ddot

2223
02:50:44,204 --> 02:50:48,404
would know which vehicles to go after.

2224
02:50:48,609 --> 02:50:54,900
so additional provisions might be added to address this

2225
02:50:54,810 --> 02:50:55,150
problem. California has a law that

2226
02:50:55,150 --> 02:50:58,170
prohibits an auto company from marketing vehicles in a way that

2227
02:50:58,170 --> 02:51:04,580
would lead a reasonable person to believe that the vehicles are

2228
02:51:04,580 --> 02:51:05,625
av's. A similar provision could be

2229
02:51:05,625 --> 02:51:09,830
added to the act. Alternatively, the act could

2230
02:51:09,830 --> 02:51:13,834
empower ddot to come up with regulations for identifying when

2231
02:51:13,834 --> 02:51:18,105
a vehicle must be registered. To your initial point, despite

2232
02:51:18,105 --> 02:51:21,842
these concerns, I think the act is frankly groundbreaking.

2233
02:51:21,842 --> 02:51:25,245
I think it is an excellent piece of legislation.

2234
02:51:25,245 --> 02:51:31,251
there are a lot of moving parts that make it hard to identify

2235
02:51:31,251 --> 02:51:34,121
what should be enacted as it currently stands, but the core

2236
02:51:34,121 --> 02:51:40,121
issue of liability -- >> to your point, if you guys

2237
02:51:50,603 --> 02:51:57,978
one, is there a model you can point to and just point to one

2238
02:51:57,978 --> 02:52:05,178
way to get the issue around how a private a/d --

2239
02:52:06,190 --> 02:52:10,124
>> there are two ways of addressing this.

2240
02:52:10,124 --> 02:52:14,324
the california way might be redeploying jurisdictions

2241
02:52:15,896 --> 02:52:20,633
because what it says explicitly is that marketing a conventional

2242
02:52:20,633 --> 02:52:24,772
vehicle in a way that suggests to a reasonable person that is

2243
02:52:24,772 --> 02:52:28,972
an av violates california consumer protection laws

2244
02:52:29,976 --> 02:52:31,976
regarding accepted advertisements.

2245
02:52:32,847 --> 02:52:38,520
we would have to look to see if similar regimes -- whether or

2246
02:52:38,520 --> 02:52:39,921
not that would be brought to the district.

2247
02:52:39,921 --> 02:52:43,725
another approach would be to focus on the substance of

2248
02:52:43,725 --> 02:52:48,620
reasonable beliefs of consumers. You could cut through it and say

2249
02:52:48,620 --> 02:52:52,000
when there is a reasonable belief by a consumer, that a

2250
02:52:52,000 --> 02:52:57,720
vehicle operates as an autonomous vehicle that it is

2251
02:52:57,720 --> 02:53:01,872
subject to registration for level three or higher.

2252
02:53:05,947 --> 02:53:12,820
>> a good number of car sales to d.c. Residence actually takes

2253
02:53:12,820 --> 02:53:15,890
place in virginia, maryland. As discovered, we can't rent

2254
02:53:15,890 --> 02:53:17,491
their loss. Ok.

2255
02:53:17,491 --> 02:53:23,491
let me turn -- we heard earlier testimony that criticized

2256
02:53:26,340 --> 02:53:30,905
provisions in the bill banning force arbitration as a condition

2257
02:53:30,905 --> 02:53:33,908
of service. If we were to knock that out,

2258
02:53:33,908 --> 02:53:38,708
what would happen? Why would that be bad?

2259
02:53:47,455 --> 02:53:52,590
>> it is of course with these companies seek to do, to limit

2260
02:53:52,590 --> 02:53:56,630
liability exposure. If there is force arbitration,

2261
02:53:56,630 --> 02:54:01,463
of course the victim of negligence and their families,

2262
02:54:07,842 --> 02:54:13,242
they get potentially limited discovery, if discovery at all.

2263
02:54:13,948 --> 02:54:19,348
it becomes a much harder -- obtaining equitable damages.

2264
02:54:19,954 --> 02:54:24,459
we have a jury system in place for a reason.

2265
02:54:24,459 --> 02:54:30,970
it is an evisceration of the seventh amendment of the

2266
02:54:30,970 --> 02:54:32,834
constitution. If you want to be a full deep

2267
02:54:32,834 --> 02:54:39,434
dive, I can, but we think it is fundamental that mandatory

2268
02:54:42,177 --> 02:54:48,177
arbitration be the also testified he felt like we need

2269
02:54:53,988 --> 02:55:00,528
to have clear language around the traffic safety laws have to

2270
02:55:00,528 --> 02:55:05,328
be followed. U.s. Servers panel for example,

2271
02:55:06,670 --> 02:55:12,730
do you ever allow the autonomous vehicle to exceed the speed

2272
02:55:12,730 --> 02:55:16,770
limit? Both answers were now -- waymo

2273
02:55:16,770 --> 02:55:20,277
said no except for the safety response.

2274
02:55:24,952 --> 02:55:29,230
people going faster around it, it seems like it was entirely

2275
02:55:29,230 --> 02:55:36,223
counter to the purpose. I do live draw, if there is a

2276
02:55:39,233 --> 02:55:42,771
safety rate -- safety removed -- maneuver to make a safe distance

2277
02:55:42,771 --> 02:55:49,371
of the for pastors, and others, it may add to contemporary

2278
02:55:51,312 --> 02:55:54,383
acceleration, do you have any feedback about how you write

2279
02:55:54,383 --> 02:56:02,183
that in a defined way to -- and also exceed the speed limit?

2280
02:56:02,957 --> 02:56:08,462
>> I think it is a tricky issue. We are certainly happy to work

2281
02:56:08,462 --> 02:56:14,462
with your office in the coming months on better defining

2282
02:56:14,669 --> 02:56:18,205
precise language. I will say though, to the

2283
02:56:18,205 --> 02:56:23,611
broader point, we see no reason why an autonomous vehicle

2284
02:56:23,611 --> 02:56:25,813
outside of potentially an evasive maneuver to avoid injury

2285
02:56:25,813 --> 02:56:29,484
or death, we need to exceed the speed limit under any

2286
02:56:29,484 --> 02:56:33,840
circumstance. I did hear about tesla

2287
02:56:34,822 --> 02:56:40,822
representatives testimony on that and it struck me as odd.

2288
02:56:41,620 --> 02:56:46,267
as to your precise question, first of all, I don't have the

2289
02:56:46,267 --> 02:56:50,172
d.c. Traffic code in front of me, but if there is a maneuver

2290
02:56:50,172 --> 02:56:55,442
to avoid injury or death, it may well be in compliance with the

2291
02:56:55,442 --> 02:56:59,647
law, as a practical manner, but beyond that, I will reiterate we

2292
02:56:59,647 --> 02:57:01,916
are more than willing to work with your office on digging into

2293
02:57:01,916 --> 02:57:07,916
that issue and coming up with precise and definitive language

2294
02:57:09,390 --> 02:57:12,193
on that. >> obviously, we still have some

2295
02:57:12,193 --> 02:57:14,395
work ahead of us in the weeks to come.

2296
02:57:14,395 --> 02:57:18,595
we want to be precise as possible.

2297
02:57:21,100 --> 02:57:23,237
cannot stop in the middle of a bike lane.

2298
02:57:23,237 --> 02:57:26,741
at the same time, there will be a reasonableness to figure out

2299
02:57:26,741 --> 02:57:31,110
because I think it is fairly reasonable the vehicle.

2300
02:57:31,110 --> 02:57:33,480
in traveling on a residential street in front of my house, in

2301
02:57:33,480 --> 02:57:37,218
the same way I don't think twice about when an over driver stops

2302
02:57:37,218 --> 02:57:42,890
to let me out or let me in, so fine-tuning that to where the

2303
02:57:42,890 --> 02:57:46,889
reasonableness works, but the legislation is precise enough

2304
02:57:49,630 --> 02:57:52,634
because technically, double parking in the middle of my

2305
02:57:52,634 --> 02:57:58,634
residential street might not be compliant with the safety lock.

2306
02:57:59,730 --> 02:58:02,643
we will have to spend time working on that.

2307
02:58:02,643 --> 02:58:06,243
you talked about full unredacted data.

2308
02:58:14,689 --> 02:58:16,491
-- >> when there is an event or a

2309
02:58:16,491 --> 02:58:22,620
crash, that victims have access to that data, that they don't

2310
02:58:22,620 --> 02:58:26,660
have to jump through unbelievable hoops over hurdles

2311
02:58:26,660 --> 02:58:32,660
to find out what the vehicle knows about the crash.

2312
02:58:32,273 --> 02:58:38,120
it shouldn't be held back. Tied back a little bit with the

2313
02:58:38,120 --> 02:58:44,120
question about the vehicles, we have her testimony they are 10

2314
02:58:48,576 --> 02:58:55,116
times safer, 94% safety, ok. If that is the case, let's share

2315
02:58:55,116 --> 02:59:00,516
that information. The people who are hurt in an

2316
02:59:00,522 --> 02:59:05,994
accident, by putting something, and this is the arbitration part

2317
02:59:05,994 --> 02:59:09,998
of it, arbitration proceedings are not open forums like court

2318
02:59:09,998 --> 02:59:14,198
proceedings are. So when we have technology

2319
02:59:14,203 --> 02:59:18,606
companies coming in and saying this is safer and this will make

2320
02:59:18,606 --> 02:59:22,744
people safer, ok, fine, but when something may go along and does

2321
02:59:22,744 --> 02:59:29,944
go wrong, everyone has that data and information as to why how

2322
02:59:31,686 --> 02:59:36,230
often things are going wrong and how often, so I just think data

2323
02:59:36,230 --> 02:59:39,260
sharing is one of the ways and transparency is one of the ways

2324
02:59:39,260 --> 02:59:42,626
of gaining confidence in these vehicles.

2325
02:59:46,868 --> 02:59:49,637
>> councilmember henderson, let me turn to you and we will tack

2326
02:59:49,637 --> 02:59:52,707
on additional time as well for any statement you would like to

2327
02:59:52,707 --> 02:59:54,750
make. >> thank you, chair alan.

2328
02:59:54,750 --> 02:59:56,430
I do not have an opening statement.

2329
02:59:56,430 --> 02:59:58,880
I've been listening. I don't think you saw me before.

2330
02:59:58,880 --> 03:00:01,383
you asked a lot of the questions I have for this group but I want

2331
03:00:01,383 --> 03:00:04,983
to thank everyone for their testimony.

2332
03:00:05,286 --> 03:00:14,886
I think it was you or mr. L who said he felt like the bill was

2333
03:00:15,296 --> 03:00:19,670
good but you felt things were missing.

2334
03:00:19,670 --> 03:00:22,300
can you state a little more about that because I do not

2335
03:00:22,300 --> 03:00:24,406
think I heard you say what the two or three additional things

2336
03:00:24,406 --> 03:00:29,806
were that you wanted to see. >> councilmember>> council memb

2337
03:00:32,547 --> 03:00:35,951
this is drew laframboise. I will briefly restate both of

2338
03:00:35,951 --> 03:00:40,151
them. One issue that we think needs

2339
03:00:40,755 --> 03:00:45,555
some better precision is defining explicitly or stating

2340
03:00:49,290 --> 03:00:53,167
explicitly that avs are required to comply --

2341
03:00:53,167 --> 03:00:55,436
>> that is what you were talking about in terms --

2342
03:00:55,436 --> 03:00:59,774
>> and specifically, if I may. Specifically, we have a problem

2343
03:00:59,774 --> 03:01:04,111
with the definition of an unreasonable risk to public

2344
03:01:04,111 --> 03:01:07,448
safety, which is used throughout the bill.

2345
03:01:07,448 --> 03:01:14,588
and that -- that is defined as something lower than, quote, the

2346
03:01:14,588 --> 03:01:18,526
average -- sorry, the human driver of average competence.

2347
03:01:18,526 --> 03:01:22,529
that is what is used in the bill to define an unreasonable risk

2348
03:01:22,529 --> 03:01:25,533
to public safety. And that is really -- that

2349
03:01:25,533 --> 03:01:28,936
definition is so vague to be without meaning.

2350
03:01:28,936 --> 03:01:36,944
we don't know how we would apply it in the first instance, and we

2351
03:01:36,944 --> 03:01:42,816
expect more from the avs, that they be more than the better

2352
03:01:42,816 --> 03:01:46,870
driver, the average competent driver, but that comply with all

2353
03:01:46,870 --> 03:01:49,824
traffic laws. And if they don't, there needs

2354
03:01:49,824 --> 03:01:53,360
to be repercussions. And that is the first issue.

2355
03:01:53,360 --> 03:01:58,990
and on the back end, we think there needs to be a better and

2356
03:01:58,990 --> 03:02:01,969
clearer tiered enforcement mechanism to make sure that when

2357
03:02:01,969 --> 03:02:08,442
avs fail to comply with traffic laws, and there should be a

2358
03:02:08,442 --> 03:02:11,712
record of all that, there should be repercussions.

2359
03:02:11,712 --> 03:02:15,116
and this is in my written testimony as well.

2360
03:02:15,116 --> 03:02:18,986
but we put out a three-tiered frame work what that might look

2361
03:02:18,986 --> 03:02:21,121
like. And we are certainly happy to

2362
03:02:21,121 --> 03:02:23,124
work with the committee on that language.

2363
03:02:23,124 --> 03:02:30,924
>> when you see prepercussions. If you have an a.v. That ran a

2364
03:02:32,800 --> 03:02:36,270
red light or happened to be going over the speed limit, the

2365
03:02:36,270 --> 03:02:38,672
company would still receive a ticket.

2366
03:02:38,672 --> 03:02:43,544
they have a license plate. You're suggesting something more

2367
03:02:43,544 --> 03:02:46,140
than what a typical driver would face?

2368
03:02:46,140 --> 03:02:49,614
>> certainly. Under this technology, there is

2369
03:02:52,754 --> 03:02:53,622
no reason an av should run a red light.

2370
03:02:53,622 --> 03:02:58,893
if they have running a red light, that slophows you someth

2371
03:02:58,893 --> 03:03:04,298
is wrong with that av. And it's incumbent on the

2372
03:03:04,298 --> 03:03:06,366
district to find out what that is.

2373
03:03:06,366 --> 03:03:12,390
what it means is a formal review to find it out what it means.

2374
03:03:12,390 --> 03:03:14,842
and an extension on the d.c. Roadways.

2375
03:03:14,842 --> 03:03:19,380
and if there is determined to be a significant problem or a

2376
03:03:19,380 --> 03:03:24,852
systemic problem with the av company, a revocation of the

2377
03:03:24,852 --> 03:03:26,852
permit. >> got it.

2378
03:03:28,589 --> 03:03:31,859
council member allen, board chair allen, I know we are

2379
03:03:31,859 --> 03:03:34,795
running behind. Those are all the questions I

2380
03:03:34,795 --> 03:03:36,197
have for the panel. >> thank you.

2381
03:03:36,197 --> 03:03:39,667
and to the last point. Part of -- we can certainly take

2382
03:03:39,667 --> 03:03:45,670
a look at it. The legislation, we are trying

2383
03:03:46,207 --> 03:03:49,807
to figure out where it's decrypt

2384
03:03:51,145 --> 03:03:55,683
descriptive, and there are some elements where an av permit

2385
03:03:55,683 --> 03:04:01,830
obviously, based on safety, track record, can be suspended

2386
03:04:02,230 --> 03:04:05,225
and can be revoked. But we will take a look at this

2387
03:04:05,225 --> 03:04:07,828
afterwards so that the language is precise as it can be.

2388
03:04:07,828 --> 03:04:12,300
and we want to give some politics to the agency so they

2389
03:04:12,300 --> 03:04:15,900
are not overly prescriptive. Thank you.

2390
03:04:16,171 --> 03:04:17,772
I appreciate everyone on the panel.

2391
03:04:17,772 --> 03:04:19,173
thank you. >> thank you.

2392
03:04:19,173 --> 03:04:22,709
>> all right, let me turn to the next panel of witnesses.

2393
03:04:22,709 --> 03:04:27,982
I have kelly mack who is a member with the d.c. Multimodal

2394
03:04:27,982 --> 03:04:31,785
accessibility advisory council. Heidi case, the co-founder of

2395
03:04:31,785 --> 03:04:35,385
the dmv disability senior community meeting.

2396
03:04:36,390 --> 03:04:40,861
ct tyson, government affairs liaison with the disability

2397
03:04:40,861 --> 03:04:43,861
rights education and defense fund.

2398
03:04:45,333 --> 03:04:50,700
theo braddy, executive director with the national council of

2399
03:04:50,700 --> 03:04:54,270
independent living. And kafui attoh, public witness.

2400
03:04:56,626 --> 03:05:00,826
and I apologize if I mispronounced that.

2401
03:05:18,647 --> 03:05:22,510
all right, I see that kelly mack is here.

2402
03:05:22,510 --> 03:05:28,510
ct is here. Is theo braddy -- okay, theo is

2403
03:05:30,993 --> 03:05:33,393
online. And kafui attoh?

2404
03:05:35,665 --> 03:05:37,400
also online. We have three people in person,

2405
03:05:37,400 --> 03:05:41,300
and two on zoom. Kelly mack, we will start with

2406
03:05:41,300 --> 03:05:41,471
you. Good afternoon.

2407
03:05:41,471 --> 03:05:44,540
>> good afternoon. Thank you for the opportunity to

2408
03:05:44,540 --> 03:05:46,275
testify today. My name is kelly mack.

2409
03:05:46,275 --> 03:05:51,800
I am a disabled d.c. Resident who uses a power wheelchair, and

2410
03:05:51,800 --> 03:05:56,219
I'm a member of the multimodal accessibility advisory council

2411
03:05:56,219 --> 03:06:01,619
or mac, which advises d.c. On improving accessibility.

2412
03:06:02,157 --> 03:06:05,561
like the majority of disabled people, I do not drive, and I

2413
03:06:05,561 --> 03:06:09,761
rely on publicly available transportation services like

2414
03:06:12,701 --> 03:06:16,238
cabs and ride shares. For years, I have spoke with the

2415
03:06:16,238 --> 03:06:19,838
problems with on-demand wheelchair vehicles and

2416
03:06:23,846 --> 03:06:26,846
services. Disabled people are generally

2417
03:06:27,516 --> 03:06:32,316
enthusiastic about the potential for transportation safety and

2418
03:06:32,388 --> 03:06:34,457
accessibility promised by autonomous vehicles.

2419
03:06:34,457 --> 03:06:37,793
however, we must learn from the example of ride share example in

2420
03:06:37,793 --> 03:06:44,667
d.c. More than ten years ago. That bill had no minimum

2421
03:06:44,667 --> 03:06:50,406
requirements and when ride share entered dv, the until of waves

2422
03:06:50,406 --> 03:06:53,209
declined more. Unfortunately, there is no

2423
03:06:53,209 --> 03:06:58,800
example in history where an entity has voluntarily offered

2424
03:06:58,800 --> 03:07:02,280
to make their transportation services more accessible.

2425
03:07:03,850 --> 03:07:08,485
the only approach that ever worked is through mandates,

2426
03:07:09,158 --> 03:07:13,958
either legislatively or through costly and lengthy litigation.

2427
03:07:15,697 --> 03:07:19,568
multid.c. Laws support full accessibility and equity that is

2428
03:07:19,568 --> 03:07:24,968
yet to be experienced by disabled people seeks on-demand

2429
03:07:28,310 --> 03:07:29,845
transportation. Following years of advocates,

2430
03:07:29,845 --> 03:07:35,450
there is no excuse for av companies to say they are

2431
03:07:35,450 --> 03:07:38,530
unaware or unprepared. What has been missing is the

2432
03:07:38,530 --> 03:07:42,725
will of av companies to adopt inclusive design practices to

2433
03:07:42,725 --> 03:07:45,595
accommodate all customers, including those with

2434
03:07:45,595 --> 03:07:48,331
disabilities. We must take their actions as

2435
03:07:48,331 --> 03:07:53,402
the truth of their intentions. Av companies will not

2436
03:07:53,402 --> 03:07:56,605
voluntarily adopt accessibility, so it must be mandated.

2437
03:07:56,605 --> 03:08:01,944
the max letter advising that any legislation permitting av

2438
03:08:01,944 --> 03:08:05,281
deployment must include accessibility requirements and

2439
03:08:05,281 --> 03:08:09,481
warn against permittinger refel to another service.

2440
03:08:11,887 --> 03:08:16,892
they can asking they are allowed to violate existing law and

2441
03:08:16,892 --> 03:08:22,292
refer disabled customers to the same exact providers their

2442
03:08:22,297 --> 03:08:27,235
business model aims to replace. The growth will lead directly to

2443
03:08:27,235 --> 03:08:32,350
the destruction of the already -- number operating

2444
03:08:33,109 --> 03:08:36,111
here. The mac recommended two concepts

2445
03:08:36,111 --> 03:08:40,911
included in the av legislation. A requirement for

2446
03:08:43,986 --> 03:08:46,388
nondiscrimination laws that names disabled people.

2447
03:08:46,388 --> 03:08:51,600
and that all av service operators must provide direct

2448
03:08:51,600 --> 03:08:56,460
serb visit directly, including minimums that scale over time

2449
03:08:56,732 --> 03:09:01,532
with enforceable milestones. The mac recommended d.c.

2450
03:09:02,700 --> 03:09:05,274
agency's oversight engage with stake holders and that

2451
03:09:05,274 --> 03:09:09,474
legislation explicitly permit and encourage pilots of

2452
03:09:11,747 --> 03:09:14,747
automated transit buses and shuttles.

2453
03:09:16,351 --> 03:09:20,880
to achieve accessibility for disabled people, four categories

2454
03:09:20,880 --> 03:09:24,159
must be added to the bill. One, wheelchair accessible

2455
03:09:24,159 --> 03:09:27,159
vehicles for loading and securement.

2456
03:09:27,562 --> 03:09:31,162
two, installing accessible human machine interfaces.

2457
03:09:32,301 --> 03:09:36,501
three, detecting and responding appropriately to diverse,

2458
03:09:38,400 --> 03:09:41,310
disabled pedestrians. And four, promoting the safety

2459
03:09:41,310 --> 03:09:46,710
of riders and pedestrians. A more conclusive list was

2460
03:09:47,450 --> 03:09:50,450
included in my written testimony.

2461
03:09:51,587 --> 03:09:56,387
disabled advocates are eager about legislation, and without

2462
03:09:59,395 --> 03:10:04,795
baseline requirements, it is repeating that the mistakes that

2463
03:10:05,401 --> 03:10:09,100
resulted in no adoption of accessibility.

2464
03:10:09,337 --> 03:10:13,341
36 years following the americans with disability act, separate

2465
03:10:13,341 --> 03:10:17,541
and unequal transportation service is not accessible.

2466
03:10:19,881 --> 03:10:23,819
d.c. Council plays a vie cal role here, and we welcome

2467
03:10:23,819 --> 03:10:26,755
discussion to make that legislation optimal for the

2468
03:10:26,755 --> 03:10:29,240
city's needs. Thank you.

2469
03:10:29,240 --> 03:10:35,240
>> thank you very much. Next, we turn to heidi case.

2470
03:10:35,164 --> 03:10:39,835
>> good morning, council member allen and henderson and staff.

2471
03:10:39,835 --> 03:10:43,305
my name is heidi case. I'm al person with a disability,

2472
03:10:43,305 --> 03:10:48,577
and part of my story, like many people with disabilities, is I

2473
03:10:48,577 --> 03:10:54,577
particularly move in to d.c., and cities, people with

2474
03:10:56,519 --> 03:11:01,319
disabilities do, because of the accessibility options that

2475
03:11:01,867 --> 03:11:04,867
cities provide. Particularly around public

2476
03:11:08,540 --> 03:11:12,477
transportation. Even -- d.c. Is even a greater

2477
03:11:12,477 --> 03:11:14,279
m hub for that because the federal

2478
03:11:14,279 --> 03:11:21,479
government for such a long time has ploemployed so many people h

2479
03:11:21,753 --> 03:11:25,157
disabilities and the equity that is required around that.

2480
03:11:25,157 --> 03:11:30,962
so there is an even higher population of people with

2481
03:11:30,962 --> 03:11:37,301
disabilities in cities. And part of my work is I did

2482
03:11:37,301 --> 03:11:43,175
that as a disabled person to ensure, I came here and realized

2483
03:11:43,175 --> 03:11:49,175
I have been a member of the metro accessibility advisory

2484
03:11:49,781 --> 03:11:53,985
condominiumty when transport d.c. Accessible d.c. Programs.

2485
03:11:53,985 --> 03:12:01,126
I have been a part of the dhp advisory committee for ten

2486
03:12:01,126 --> 03:12:04,996
years, chaired it on and off, and I have chaired the mac for

2487
03:12:04,996 --> 03:12:11,336
several years also. So this is my work and what I

2488
03:12:11,336 --> 03:12:14,936
do. And reiterate some of kelly's

2489
03:12:17,942 --> 03:12:20,942
point. Plessy versus ferguson over 100

2490
03:12:23,147 --> 03:12:25,817
years ago said separate but equal is okay.

2491
03:12:25,817 --> 03:12:30,755
it's not coincidental, that was about public transportation in

2492
03:12:30,755 --> 03:12:33,358
trains. Civil rights legislation has

2493
03:12:33,358 --> 03:12:36,227
gone through the public transportation.

2494
03:12:36,227 --> 03:12:42,100
the bus boycott in the '60s. All of that.

2495
03:12:42,100 --> 03:12:48,100
and I was part of the -- initially named dependent

2496
03:12:48,907 --> 03:12:53,445
against a uber lawsuit. Unfortunately this is deja vu

2497
03:12:53,445 --> 03:12:56,114
all over again. It's what happens when tncs came

2498
03:12:56,114 --> 03:13:02,114
in d.c., and there were no accessibility requirements on

2499
03:13:02,120 --> 03:13:06,320
them. That uber lawsuit, and they did

2500
03:13:06,657 --> 03:13:11,457
exactly what waymo is suggesting, refer to taxis.

2501
03:13:14,799 --> 03:13:19,804
and they lost that lawsuit. Because testing proved that

2502
03:13:19,804 --> 03:13:27,400
people paid twice as much and waited five to six times as

2503
03:13:28,880 --> 03:13:33,800
long. The -- sorry, resolution to that

2504
03:13:33,751 --> 03:13:37,351
lawsuits lawsuit has required uber under

2505
03:13:39,690 --> 03:13:43,962
their own company, on the app, they provide wheelchair

2506
03:13:43,962 --> 03:13:46,765
accessibility vehicles and hire staff to provide them.

2507
03:13:46,765 --> 03:13:51,836
that is a way they provide equity, and that way you can

2508
03:13:51,836 --> 03:13:54,238
match time waits, costs, et cetera.

2509
03:13:54,238 --> 03:14:01,112
so let's avoid all of that and put some of those requirements

2510
03:14:01,112 --> 03:14:07,112
in legislation at this point. Separate but equal never has

2511
03:14:13,591 --> 03:14:17,191
been. The other things that kelly

2512
03:14:17,395 --> 03:14:23,995
mentioned, exactly what the history and dhs fee has the data

2513
03:14:25,670 --> 03:14:32,870
to prove -- we had such robust wheelchair taxis, and tncs came

2514
03:14:34,120 --> 03:14:39,351
in, and ever since then, the number of wheelchair taxis on

2515
03:14:39,351 --> 03:14:42,420
d.c. Streets has dropped and dropped and dropped.

2516
03:14:42,420 --> 03:14:46,758
they are required to provide monthly data on how many.

2517
03:14:46,758 --> 03:14:52,163
yes, there was legislation about a percentage, and you questioned

2518
03:14:52,163 --> 03:14:54,833
them. Here in d.c., that was 20%.

2519
03:14:54,833 --> 03:15:02,107
the thing is, do you -- they allowed that 20% to be met by

2520
03:15:02,107 --> 03:15:06,111
taxis sitting in garages with no drivers and never on the

2521
03:15:06,111 --> 03:15:10,115
streets. So that actually -- if you want

2522
03:15:10,115 --> 03:15:14,919
a percentage, I was in new york city for pride.

2523
03:15:14,919 --> 03:15:18,857
and united sued them, 50% on wheelchair taxis.

2524
03:15:18,857 --> 03:15:24,128
I hailed a taxi on the street! They have a wheelchair symbol on

2525
03:15:24,128 --> 03:15:28,660
the front of the taxi. You can see when it's coming.

2526
03:15:28,660 --> 03:15:34,500
and be able to do that. So there are some models to make

2527
03:15:34,500 --> 03:15:38,805
this better. I wanted to briefly -- oh.

2528
03:15:39,810 --> 03:15:46,830
I will have to put in my -- that the -- the disability community,

2529
03:15:46,830 --> 03:15:52,830
the ada's history of the blind and wheelchaired drivers, and

2530
03:15:53,357 --> 03:15:56,957
wheelchair communities, disagreeing on curb cuts.

2531
03:15:57,162 --> 03:16:01,362
and quickly, they said, they will die.

2532
03:16:01,900 --> 03:16:05,103
wheelchair says we have to have it.

2533
03:16:05,103 --> 03:16:07,380
the bumpy domes was the solution.

2534
03:16:07,380 --> 03:16:11,838
there are solutions. Where both of our communities

2535
03:16:14,111 --> 03:16:16,380
win and have access and safety. Thank you.

2536
03:16:16,380 --> 03:16:22,980
>> thank you very much. Next, we turn to c.t. Tyson.

2537
03:16:24,188 --> 03:16:26,570
>> tel >> hello, and thank you for the

2538
03:16:26,570 --> 03:16:31,129
opportunity to testify on the 36th anniversary of the

2539
03:16:31,129 --> 03:16:36,935
americans with disabilities act. My name is c.t. Tyson.

2540
03:16:36,935 --> 03:16:42,700
I am a white person with short hair and a dark blazer.

2541
03:16:42,700 --> 03:16:48,700
I am a former chair, 2014 to 2016 of the department of

2542
03:16:48,279 --> 03:16:53,790
vehicle accessibility advisory community, and a proud ward 4

2543
03:16:57,621 --> 03:17:00,358
district resident. And the policy center directed

2544
03:17:00,358 --> 03:17:05,758
by individuals with disabilities and parents who have children

2545
03:17:06,698 --> 03:17:09,567
with disabilities. My colleagues are based in the

2546
03:17:09,567 --> 03:17:15,648
bay area and in los angeles. So we have extensive experience

2547
03:17:15,648 --> 03:17:22,248
with av and av policy. We developed an interest in av

2548
03:17:22,922 --> 03:17:26,525
policy in the drooafting of the 2015 report of self-driving

2549
03:17:26,525 --> 03:17:31,325
cars, and mapping access to a technology resolution.

2550
03:17:31,529 --> 03:17:36,680
we participated in three days of av accessibility workshops in

2551
03:17:36,680 --> 03:17:40,672
2019, posted by the double manufacturers, and providing the

2552
03:17:40,672 --> 03:17:46,720
alliance for automotive, and the u.s. Department of

2553
03:17:48,814 --> 03:17:52,217
transforpassion, and the u.s. Department of labor listening

2554
03:17:52,217 --> 03:17:55,217
sessions and the transportation adv

2555
03:17:56,888 --> 03:17:59,425
advisory committee. Policymakers have acknowledged

2556
03:17:59,425 --> 03:18:06,970
and discussed the need for avs to be fully accessible for more

2557
03:18:06,970 --> 03:18:08,901
than a decade. A little progress has been made.

2558
03:18:08,901 --> 03:18:13,701
in 2022, a brief on addressing the autonomous vehicles.

2559
03:18:14,640 --> 03:18:19,511
there has been modeling and an ek notes of avs failing to stop

2560
03:18:19,511 --> 03:18:26,111
when it encounters a wheeler. And they have not inclusive, as

2561
03:18:28,921 --> 03:18:32,257
mentioned earlier. Of people with darker skin tones

2562
03:18:32,257 --> 03:18:36,462
and many people with disable tips including wheelchair users.

2563
03:18:36,462 --> 03:18:40,932
we urge the community to consider the following in a

2564
03:18:40,932 --> 03:18:44,803
future version of the bill. First, just because this is said

2565
03:18:44,803 --> 03:18:50,803
on the previous panel, we fully support mandatory or forced

2566
03:18:53,679 --> 03:18:57,279
arbitration appearing nowhere in the bill.

2567
03:18:57,282 --> 03:18:59,284
I work on federal policy. It does not work.

2568
03:18:59,284 --> 03:19:02,880
it's not good for the community. Please do not do that.

2569
03:19:02,880 --> 03:19:05,957
clear accessibility requirements for av operators in the district

2570
03:19:05,957 --> 03:19:10,290
should be set, including a minimum number of wheelchair

2571
03:19:10,290 --> 03:19:13,310
accessible avs and operators in the future.

2572
03:19:13,310 --> 03:19:17,302
to qualify for a permit -- because I understand this is a

2573
03:19:17,302 --> 03:19:22,102
tiered system -- operators must adopt zero tolerance

2574
03:19:26,440 --> 03:19:29,715
discrimination policy. This is already required for

2575
03:19:29,715 --> 03:19:32,183
tmcs. Commit to accessible service for

2576
03:19:32,183 --> 03:19:35,183
all district residents and visitors.

2577
03:19:36,388 --> 03:19:39,988
having in place wheelchair accessible options.

2578
03:19:40,526 --> 03:19:47,126
refer to d.c. Dot documenting the number of ride requests,

2579
03:19:48,400 --> 03:19:53,272
rides fulfilled and wait times for each, and inaccessible rides

2580
03:19:53,272 --> 03:19:56,872
to ensure equitable service is provided.

2581
03:19:57,750 --> 03:20:03,675
report to the crash and near crash data involving people with

2582
03:20:04,616 --> 03:20:08,687
disability, including repair efforts and provide proof with

2583
03:20:08,687 --> 03:20:11,757
successful testing with detection and response to a

2584
03:20:11,757 --> 03:20:13,826
variety of people with disabilities.

2585
03:20:13,826 --> 03:20:18,260
at the outset while they are here.

2586
03:20:18,164 --> 03:20:22,100
to qualify to increase the fleet sizes, operators should include

2587
03:20:22,100 --> 03:20:26,504
safety and equity, when and how they will ensure the human

2588
03:20:26,504 --> 03:20:29,508
machine interface and the vehicle is fully accessible for

2589
03:20:29,508 --> 03:20:34,112
all people with disabilities and the required number of vehicles

2590
03:20:34,112 --> 03:20:37,712
are accessible for wheelchair user pro

2591
03:20:38,584 --> 03:20:42,184
user provided. Regular reporting for the

2592
03:20:44,656 --> 03:20:49,928
advisory committee and response to recommendations and on going

2593
03:20:49,928 --> 03:20:52,530
consultation. Failure to comply with the

2594
03:20:52,530 --> 03:20:57,203
policies and their provision of equitable service should result

2595
03:20:57,203 --> 03:21:01,673
in suspension of a permit. In addition, tech companies

2596
03:21:01,673 --> 03:21:06,473
providing transportation service are still required to ensure

2597
03:21:10,883 --> 03:21:15,683
that equitable service. They should not rewarded for

2598
03:21:17,223 --> 03:21:22,623
cherry picking and awarding service to those easiest to

2599
03:21:23,896 --> 03:21:25,831
serve. Thank you for allowing me to

2600
03:21:25,831 --> 03:21:30,636
provide testimony to ensuring equal access to all modes of

2601
03:21:30,636 --> 03:21:32,570
transportation. >> thank you very much.

2602
03:21:32,570 --> 03:21:39,170
next, we turn to theo braddy who is online, I believe.

2603
03:21:43,582 --> 03:21:45,984
>> I'm not able to come off camera.

2604
03:21:45,984 --> 03:21:47,653
there we go. >> there we go.

2605
03:21:47,653 --> 03:21:53,391
we can both see and hear you. When you're ready, sir.

2606
03:21:53,391 --> 03:21:54,126
>> awesome. Thank you.

2607
03:21:54,126 --> 03:21:59,130
I do appreciate the fact that you have made accommodations for

2608
03:21:59,130 --> 03:22:04,530
me to provide comment. I am providing comments in

2609
03:22:08,600 --> 03:22:10,600
support. The 26-0684.

2610
03:22:17,683 --> 03:22:22,154
my name theo w. Braddy, for independent living.

2611
03:22:22,154 --> 03:22:27,492
my video description. I'm a black man with a bald head

2612
03:22:27,492 --> 03:22:34,920
with salt and pepper beard, blue classes, and I'm a c-4

2613
03:22:45,377 --> 03:22:48,377
quadriplegic. And the disability grassroots

2614
03:22:49,648 --> 03:22:54,720
organization represents people with disable tips and a nation

2615
03:22:54,720 --> 03:22:57,723
network for immedindependent li and the independent living

2616
03:22:57,723 --> 03:23:01,593
council appreciate the opportunity to provide comments

2617
03:23:01,593 --> 03:23:05,530
in support of the legislation. For people with disabilities,

2618
03:23:05,530 --> 03:23:08,933
transportation has never been simple about getting from one

2619
03:23:08,933 --> 03:23:13,133
place to the other. It's about independence.

2620
03:23:15,273 --> 03:23:17,542
employment, health care, education, civil engagement and

2621
03:23:17,542 --> 03:23:21,152
the civil right to participate fully in community life.

2622
03:23:21,152 --> 03:23:24,752
for decades, inaccessible for unreliable tra

2623
03:23:29,293 --> 03:23:33,564
unreliable transportation has remained one of the greatest

2624
03:23:33,564 --> 03:23:37,435
barriers of the american with disability act.

2625
03:23:37,435 --> 03:23:42,400
we believe this legislation represents an important step

2626
03:23:42,400 --> 03:23:46,840
towards removing those barriers. The national council of

2627
03:23:47,244 --> 03:23:51,649
independent living supports is the bill, and a thoughtful

2628
03:23:51,649 --> 03:23:55,849
approach to creating a thoughtful autonomous vehicle.

2629
03:23:57,455 --> 03:24:01,726
the support of an autonomous vehicle combined with

2630
03:24:01,726 --> 03:24:05,326
requirements for safety, emergency response planning,

2631
03:24:09,200 --> 03:24:13,404
equitable access throughout the eight wards, and interface

2632
03:24:13,404 --> 03:24:17,341
demonstrates commitment to ensure that innovation in public

2633
03:24:17,341 --> 03:24:20,745
safety advances together. These provisions provide a

2634
03:24:20,745 --> 03:24:26,145
strong frame work of responsible deployment and recognizing their

2635
03:24:26,417 --> 03:24:30,617
importance of accessibility from the on set.

2636
03:24:31,422 --> 03:24:35,622
autonomous vehicle technology has special to transform

2637
03:24:35,626 --> 03:24:38,626
transportation for millions of americans.

2638
03:24:39,363 --> 03:24:43,367
it can be a game changer, no doubt about it.

2639
03:24:43,367 --> 03:24:47,567
maymo has demonstrated meaningful benefits for broad

2640
03:24:47,638 --> 03:24:51,238
cross section of the disability community.

2641
03:24:51,309 --> 03:24:55,712
including people who are blind, low vision, people who are deaf,

2642
03:24:55,712 --> 03:25:01,853
hard of hearing and those who use and can't walk, use canes,

2643
03:25:01,853 --> 03:25:07,853
walkers, and other walking aids, and many other disabilities that

2644
03:25:08,459 --> 03:25:12,659
transportation was very difficult or inconsistent or

2645
03:25:13,998 --> 03:25:16,670
inaccessible. Many riders of autonomous

2646
03:25:16,670 --> 03:25:20,938
transportation is something that cannot be made in miles travel.

2647
03:25:20,938 --> 03:25:25,138
it provides freedom, dignity, privacy and predictability.

2648
03:25:27,144 --> 03:25:31,283
that is so important for people with disabilities.

2649
03:25:31,283 --> 03:25:36,683
they are positioned to become the nation's leader in

2650
03:25:37,421 --> 03:25:41,210
transportation. Washington serves as the main

2651
03:25:41,960 --> 03:25:46,760
national center for disability policy, advocacy, civil rights

2652
03:25:48,433 --> 03:25:52,770
leaders and so forth. Every year, thousands of people

2653
03:25:52,770 --> 03:25:57,107
travel to the district participating in congress, to

2654
03:25:57,107 --> 03:26:01,907
meet agendas, attend medical appointments and engage in

2655
03:26:02,460 --> 03:26:05,383
national organizations. In addition, washington hosts a

2656
03:26:05,383 --> 03:26:08,453
national disability conference that we put on every year to

2657
03:26:08,453 --> 03:26:12,589
bring in thousands of people with disabilities, including

2658
03:26:12,589 --> 03:26:15,259
policymakers and international guests from out of this country.

2659
03:26:15,259 --> 03:26:18,859
reliable and accessible autonomous transportation has

2660
03:26:19,263 --> 03:26:24,630
the potential to dramatically improve their experiences with

2661
03:26:24,402 --> 03:26:26,937
the businesses. -- recognize this is important

2662
03:26:26,937 --> 03:26:32,337
that waymo's commit to engage directly with the disability

2663
03:26:33,744 --> 03:26:37,344
communities, waymo has established an accessibility

2664
03:26:41,286 --> 03:26:46,860
network made up of individuals with disabilities regarding

2665
03:26:47,625 --> 03:26:51,950
feedback with rider experience and continued improvement.

2666
03:26:51,950 --> 03:26:55,767
we believe this proposed act provides an opportunity for the

2667
03:26:55,767 --> 03:26:59,967
district to build upon this model successfully.

2668
03:27:01,380 --> 03:27:05,838
accordingly, we strongly recommend, and I can't explain

2669
03:27:06,844 --> 03:27:11,982
how important that this is, the council include language

2670
03:27:11,982 --> 03:27:16,782
districting the department of transportation to establish a

2671
03:27:19,457 --> 03:27:24,257
permanent advisory committee to advise on accessibility issues

2672
03:27:24,995 --> 03:27:27,995
related to the autonomous transporatra

2673
03:27:31,269 --> 03:27:32,670
transporation. Now, you will hear from

2674
03:27:32,670 --> 03:27:38,670
individuals today just like you heard from carl highson who

2675
03:27:40,344 --> 03:27:42,747
provided comments on who should be invited to be a member of the

2676
03:27:42,747 --> 03:27:45,215
committee. I can't implore you enough how

2677
03:27:45,215 --> 03:27:48,180
important it is to have that kind of feedback.

2678
03:27:48,180 --> 03:27:54,240
I can heard many of your petitioners here today use the

2679
03:27:54,240 --> 03:27:57,240
word all. All of washingtonians.

2680
03:27:59,964 --> 03:28:03,167
all of washington, d.c. Citizens.

2681
03:28:03,167 --> 03:28:05,169
of course, generally, when people use that terminology,

2682
03:28:05,169 --> 03:28:10,410
they don't always include people with disabilities as citizens.

2683
03:28:10,410 --> 03:28:14,112
you all right now have an opportunity to ensure that

2684
03:28:14,112 --> 03:28:18,312
people with disabilities, including people with wheelchair

2685
03:28:20,251 --> 03:28:25,456
users as well as motorized wheelchair, to be included in

2686
03:28:25,456 --> 03:28:29,560
regard to creating wheelchair accessible vehicles.

2687
03:28:31,129 --> 03:28:38,135
and for the first time, we will see that game changer in regard

2688
03:28:38,135 --> 03:28:42,873
to everyone having an opportunity to fully participate

2689
03:28:42,873 --> 03:28:44,541
happen. And I think you all have a

2690
03:28:44,541 --> 03:28:47,611
student because I have seen -- I have been sitting here

2691
03:28:47,611 --> 03:28:51,810
listening, and there is a lot of great comments coming in.

2692
03:28:51,810 --> 03:28:56,481
and this is an effort. It's a major effort,

2693
03:28:58,880 --> 03:29:01,292
councilmember allen. But one of the things we cannot

2694
03:29:01,292 --> 03:29:07,892
do is to continue to leave off wheelchair users and motorized

2695
03:29:11,169 --> 03:29:13,504
wheelchair users. It's just too important.

2696
03:29:13,504 --> 03:29:20,104
>> thank you very much. And next, let me turn to kafui

2697
03:29:20,711 --> 03:29:23,981
attoh. If I mispronounced that, correct

2698
03:29:23,981 --> 03:29:25,182
me. >> it's kafui.

2699
03:29:25,182 --> 03:29:29,382
I'm used to it. Good afternoon, chairperson

2700
03:29:29,653 --> 03:29:32,126
allen and members of the committee.

2701
03:29:32,126 --> 03:29:38,726
let me say thank you for the opportunity to offer this

2702
03:29:39,133 --> 03:29:40,801
testimony. My name is kafui.

2703
03:29:40,801 --> 03:29:45,740
I am a professor of urban studies in new york, and along

2704
03:29:45,740 --> 03:29:49,744
with my colleagues katie wells who wouldn't be here, my

2705
03:29:49,744 --> 03:29:54,810
research is focused on the relationship between urban

2706
03:29:54,810 --> 03:29:58,281
platforms, transportation and how cities govern emerging

2707
03:29:59,153 --> 03:30:00,488
technologies. So this very issue.

2708
03:30:00,488 --> 03:30:07,880
this research, just to do a shameless plug, has yielded two

2709
03:30:07,495 --> 03:30:11,499
books, disrupting d.c., the use of uber and the fall of the

2710
03:30:11,499 --> 03:30:16,237
city, and the rights of public transportation in california's

2711
03:30:16,237 --> 03:30:19,240
east bay. I should start by saying I did

2712
03:30:19,240 --> 03:30:24,640
appreciate the effort that has gone into krafrtingcrafting theg

2713
03:30:29,650 --> 03:30:33,850
technology. I urge the council to reconsider

2714
03:30:34,540 --> 03:30:37,859
, to go back to it. The question is not whether

2715
03:30:37,859 --> 03:30:41,429
autonomous vehicles can be regulated but whether their

2716
03:30:41,429 --> 03:30:44,799
commercial appointment advances public policy goals.

2717
03:30:44,799 --> 03:30:49,604
the district should first be cautious, and this is already

2718
03:30:49,604 --> 03:30:55,400
covered by tyson and not whethe claims of accessibility.

2719
03:31:05,419 --> 03:31:08,889
accessibility is more than the ability to request a ride.

2720
03:31:08,889 --> 03:31:13,890
view act sszibcessibilitity req affordable services, and

2721
03:31:16,630 --> 03:31:19,630
geographic coverage, and the int

2722
03:31:22,703 --> 03:31:26,174
integration with public systems. The district has yet to

2723
03:31:26,174 --> 03:31:29,777
demonstrate that commercial operators can meet the operators

2724
03:31:29,777 --> 03:31:35,777
and skam, or they will improve on existing ada services.

2725
03:31:37,518 --> 03:31:41,989
it should not be assumed because a vehicle is autonomous or a

2726
03:31:41,989 --> 03:31:45,526
company claims as much. The ability to claim that

2727
03:31:45,526 --> 03:31:48,620
autonomous vehicles are an answer to the priorities.

2728
03:31:48,620 --> 03:31:52,262
the priorities include improving metro reliability, expanding

2729
03:31:53,601 --> 03:31:57,201
service, and expanding infrastructure, and ensuring

2730
03:31:59,730 --> 03:32:02,760
equitable transportation access. Commercial vehicles address a

2731
03:32:02,760 --> 03:32:08,760
view of the priorities directly. Instead, they risk the public

2732
03:32:08,415 --> 03:32:13,215
attention. And this is a bigger issue, and

2733
03:32:14,880 --> 03:32:18,888
regulatory capacity, and the principle beneficiaries may be

2734
03:32:20,628 --> 03:32:22,363
private. We have seen this before.

2735
03:32:22,363 --> 03:32:25,566
and it's a movie we have written about in disrupting d.c.

2736
03:32:25,566 --> 03:32:31,305
over a decade ago, ride platforms have changed the city.

2737
03:32:31,305 --> 03:32:38,505
so they have fulfilled a few of the early promises to incrude

2738
03:32:41,982 --> 03:32:42,583
y equality.

2739
03:32:42,583 --> 03:32:47,255
we should not repeat the same cycle where technological

2740
03:32:47,255 --> 03:32:50,991
changes celebrate and the economic and social cluster

2741
03:32:50,991 --> 03:32:54,591
extend to workers and vulnerable comm

2742
03:32:54,796 --> 03:32:56,597
communities. The question is not whether

2743
03:32:56,597 --> 03:33:00,670
vehicles can be safety introduced in a frame work.

2744
03:33:00,670 --> 03:33:02,136
the question is whether commercial can deployment by one

2745
03:33:02,136 --> 03:33:07,475
of the largest tech forms in the world is officially aligned with

2746
03:33:07,475 --> 03:33:10,475
the equity accessibility and accountability.

2747
03:33:13,280 --> 03:33:17,151
and sustainability to justify authorizing their operation at

2748
03:33:17,151 --> 03:33:21,951
this time. I and my colleagues, you know,

2749
03:33:25,559 --> 03:33:30,898
we still need to be persuaded. Once deployment beginning, the

2750
03:33:30,898 --> 03:33:35,903
district streets -- this is a top take came up in an earlier

2751
03:33:35,903 --> 03:33:39,107
panel discussion. Becomes part of a privately

2752
03:33:39,107 --> 03:33:44,507
operated mobility platform where owners have proven -- like

2753
03:33:46,113 --> 03:33:50,313
google, have proven to be sk scrupulous.

2754
03:33:57,325 --> 03:34:03,464
and the district has ever right and every responsibility to ask

2755
03:34:03,464 --> 03:34:08,736
whether this technology solves problems that the residents face

2756
03:34:08,736 --> 03:34:10,270
before opening the streets to commercial deployment.

2757
03:34:10,270 --> 03:34:13,674
so I will end my comments there. Thank you for the time, and I

2758
03:34:13,674 --> 03:34:19,674
will submit the written record into the written -- written

2759
03:34:20,280 --> 03:34:22,820
testimony into the record. >> thank you very much.

2760
03:34:22,820 --> 03:34:25,352
I appreciate it. Thanks to everybody on the

2761
03:34:25,352 --> 03:34:28,555
panel. Let me go through a couple

2762
03:34:28,555 --> 03:34:32,755
questions. I might start, kelly mack and

2763
03:34:33,160 --> 03:34:35,897
heidi case and c.t. Tyson, with you, since you are in front of

2764
03:34:35,897 --> 03:34:40,167
me. When I ask the question to the

2765
03:34:40,167 --> 03:34:45,567
earlier panel of the av operators, waymo in particular,

2766
03:34:49,510 --> 03:34:55,510
the distinction, tell ist w tes about a purpose vehicle.

2767
03:34:56,250 --> 03:34:59,586
and waymo's answer is, we're the technology company.

2768
03:34:59,586 --> 03:35:03,186
we don't actually make the vehicle.

2769
03:35:04,458 --> 03:35:09,797
I don't disagree. We wrote in law, a requirement

2770
03:35:09,797 --> 03:35:13,801
around taxi cabs. The driver didn't make the

2771
03:35:13,801 --> 03:35:16,404
vehicle either. So I'm not sure that is good

2772
03:35:16,404 --> 03:35:23,400
enough to say, well, you have to have a better representation

2773
03:35:23,144 --> 03:35:25,212
within your fleet. What were your reactions when

2774
03:35:25,212 --> 03:35:29,350
you heard that? And do you see parallels to the

2775
03:35:29,350 --> 03:35:32,153
conversations that we had with the taxi cab fleet?

2776
03:35:32,153 --> 03:35:35,753
>> yes. It is a direct parallel.

2777
03:35:39,313 --> 03:35:41,314
-- again. Please, can we have a different

2778
03:35:41,314 --> 03:35:45,252
response by the district? I am begging you.

2779
03:35:45,252 --> 03:35:51,125
heidi can attest, I was in the motion to the hearing where

2780
03:35:51,125 --> 03:35:55,862
heidi was a plaintiff, and now supreme court justice jackson

2781
03:35:55,862 --> 03:36:01,802
was the judge, and the uber lawyer said, we are just a tech

2782
03:36:01,802 --> 03:36:04,138
company, and we provide uber eats.

2783
03:36:04,138 --> 03:36:09,538
we should never have to comply with the ada.

2784
03:36:10,770 --> 03:36:16,417
I have never been more happy to see a judge's jaw drop.

2785
03:36:16,417 --> 03:36:20,287
I have been a fan since. I ask you to please require them

2786
03:36:20,287 --> 03:36:24,910
to do it. Otherwise, it's putting the onus

2787
03:36:24,910 --> 03:36:28,950
on my community to litigate. And we are getting beat up on

2788
03:36:28,950 --> 03:36:30,831
all sides. The federal government, and now

2789
03:36:30,831 --> 03:36:35,101
just feeling very left out and invisibility in all of this.

2790
03:36:35,101 --> 03:36:37,705
so yes, no, they absolutely have a responsibility.

2791
03:36:37,705 --> 03:36:39,573
it's in law. They know it.

2792
03:36:39,573 --> 03:36:41,176
it's been litigated in the courts.

2793
03:36:41,176 --> 03:36:43,643
we have been talking about it in rooms with them.

2794
03:36:43,643 --> 03:36:50,843
as I mentioned, for a decade. And they haved admitted they ar

2795
03:36:52,186 --> 03:36:52,852
obligated. >> exactly.

2796
03:36:52,852 --> 03:36:57,652
I mean, that is exactly what tnc said.

2797
03:36:57,992 --> 03:37:03,630
we're -- technology, not that. And there hasn't been a single

2798
03:37:03,630 --> 03:37:06,670
court case where that stood up. D.c. Is not the only place that

2799
03:37:06,670 --> 03:37:10,671
has taken uber for example to court to force this.

2800
03:37:10,671 --> 03:37:17,871
and as I mentioned, the option then is, yeah, the settlement of

2801
03:37:19,120 --> 03:37:22,349
that is they're buying wheelchair accessible vehicles,

2802
03:37:22,349 --> 03:37:26,953
paying drivers. And that's part of their whole

2803
03:37:26,953 --> 03:37:31,153
service. But sending it to another is

2804
03:37:32,250 --> 03:37:36,563
simply not. And the biggest thing, to say,

2805
03:37:36,563 --> 03:37:38,832
again, the problem is, kelly said it beautifully.

2806
03:37:38,832 --> 03:37:44,232
they are taking the jobs from the accessible vehicles.

2807
03:37:46,106 --> 03:37:51,645
wheelchair drivers -- their whole -- for the job to be

2808
03:37:51,645 --> 03:37:55,245
viable, they take people who aren't.

2809
03:37:55,516 --> 03:38:00,316
and avs and tncs took those jobs away.

2810
03:38:02,122 --> 03:38:06,593
that is why it riveted. It actually doesn't stay the

2811
03:38:06,593 --> 03:38:08,195
same. Even what we have.

2812
03:38:08,195 --> 03:38:11,731
and that's the concerning thing. >> okay.

2813
03:38:11,731 --> 03:38:15,931
thank you. This question is my own

2814
03:38:16,270 --> 03:38:20,273
ignorance. Is there a -- are we aware of a

2815
03:38:20,273 --> 03:38:25,673
wheelchair accessible vehicle where it does not require a

2816
03:38:25,946 --> 03:38:28,681
human operator? What I'm getting, I have had

2817
03:38:28,681 --> 03:38:33,153
people say, well -- you want to have a driver, because that

2818
03:38:33,153 --> 03:38:37,224
driver can assist getting in and out of the vehicle.

2819
03:38:37,224 --> 03:38:42,950
if the wheelchair or other devices need to be stored in a

2820
03:38:42,950 --> 03:38:44,898
certain way, an autonomous vehicle doesn't have the other

2821
03:38:44,898 --> 03:38:48,902
person there. Is there -- just my own

2822
03:38:48,902 --> 03:38:50,970
ignorance. Is there a vehicle that anyone

2823
03:38:50,970 --> 03:38:54,841
is aware of where it doesn't require another person?

2824
03:38:54,841 --> 03:38:59,410
>> if I may? -- to name ability.

2825
03:39:03,316 --> 03:39:08,522
they have provided shuttle av service for some time.

2826
03:39:08,522 --> 03:39:14,127
and they were -- they hold a standard of a company that

2827
03:39:14,127 --> 03:39:19,527
recognized their need to commit and provide accessible service.

2828
03:39:19,532 --> 03:39:25,472
so they do have av shuttles that don't require a driver and are

2829
03:39:25,472 --> 03:39:29,672
wheelchair accessible. A purpose built versus retro

2830
03:39:30,944 --> 03:39:33,881
fitted. That is including the taxi and

2831
03:39:33,881 --> 03:39:36,950
the tmc space. We would love to see that.

2832
03:39:36,950 --> 03:39:40,860
companies and various operators have committed to and we have

2833
03:39:40,860 --> 03:39:43,890
seen them fall apart. When leadership or accessible

2834
03:39:43,890 --> 03:39:46,159
teams have changed or left. Over and over again.

2835
03:39:46,159 --> 03:39:49,629
so it think it's going -- as kelly said, it's going to have

2836
03:39:49,629 --> 03:39:52,632
to be required for it to actually happen.

2837
03:39:52,632 --> 03:39:55,902
and you might have one company that says, tesla, we have

2838
03:39:55,902 --> 03:39:59,239
something in the works. But that doesn't mean that any

2839
03:39:59,239 --> 03:40:00,707
other companies are going to do it.

2840
03:40:00,707 --> 03:40:06,707
so it's really important. And I know heidi talked about

2841
03:40:06,713 --> 03:40:11,918
her experience in new york city, and we have accessible taxis in

2842
03:40:11,918 --> 03:40:13,787
europe. So it is possible.

2843
03:40:13,787 --> 03:40:16,589
it just really has to be required.

2844
03:40:16,589 --> 03:40:18,392
and force them to put the money into it.

2845
03:40:18,392 --> 03:40:22,128
>> I will come to you in a second.

2846
03:40:22,128 --> 03:40:27,867
I see your hand's up. We will pull in mr. Braddy here

2847
03:40:27,867 --> 03:40:31,671
as well. From your perspective, does the

2848
03:40:31,671 --> 03:40:34,340
vehicle -- would a vehicle have to be autonomous?

2849
03:40:34,340 --> 03:40:40,213
or is it more that the fleet operator has to have a fleet of

2850
03:40:40,213 --> 03:40:44,618
vehicles that could actually be a subset of the vehicles have a

2851
03:40:44,618 --> 03:40:49,155
human driver in it? And the -- is providing that

2852
03:40:49,155 --> 03:40:53,960
wheelchair access vehicle? Like, is that a distinction a

2853
03:40:53,960 --> 03:40:56,960
difference? >> there is a distinction, and

2854
03:40:56,960 --> 03:40:58,564
we need both. We need the first in the outset.

2855
03:40:58,564 --> 03:41:01,968
and the human -- they don't have a wheelchair accessible av right

2856
03:41:01,968 --> 03:41:04,838
now. With the automated securement,

2857
03:41:04,838 --> 03:41:09,709
and there is a coalition, and I believe somebody will be

2858
03:41:09,709 --> 03:41:11,244
testifying about that later today.

2859
03:41:11,244 --> 03:41:13,580
so you can ask kent when he talks.

2860
03:41:13,580 --> 03:41:15,515
I don't want to steal his thunder.

2861
03:41:15,515 --> 03:41:19,452
if the companies are coming, they should be required,

2862
03:41:19,452 --> 03:41:24,852
absolutely required to provide at least the driver --

2863
03:41:25,125 --> 03:41:28,195
wheelchair accessible service for the driver.

2864
03:41:28,195 --> 03:41:32,466
think can't come in and provide the wheelchair accessible

2865
03:41:32,466 --> 03:41:35,201
service. They are violating the law.

2866
03:41:35,201 --> 03:41:43,100
but whether or not av s are equitable, I would say they are

2867
03:41:43,142 --> 03:41:45,110
not. I ask you to get them to report

2868
03:41:45,110 --> 03:41:48,815
on the wait times. If they are relying on a driver,

2869
03:41:48,815 --> 03:41:53,971
is that going to be available 24/7 like with an unmanned av?

2870
03:41:53,971 --> 03:41:58,175
I would say probably not. Are the wait times going to be

2871
03:41:58,175 --> 03:42:00,511
the same? Probably not.

2872
03:42:00,511 --> 03:42:04,982
but if avs are supposed to be safer, safer for people outside

2873
03:42:04,982 --> 03:42:08,719
the vehicle, why are we not requiring that for wheelchair

2874
03:42:08,719 --> 03:42:11,189
users as well? I really hope that the district

2875
03:42:11,189 --> 03:42:14,992
will take this opportunity to ensure that same level, the same

2876
03:42:14,992 --> 03:42:17,727
quality of service across the board.

2877
03:42:17,727 --> 03:42:22,132
>> let me turn to mr. Braddy before time runs out here.

2878
03:42:22,132 --> 03:42:25,132
mr. Braddy? >> yeah, thank you.

2879
03:42:25,202 --> 03:42:28,406
I do agree with what was just said.

2880
03:42:28,406 --> 03:42:31,742
it's going to require both. I was working with a company

2881
03:42:31,742 --> 03:42:36,480
called cruz, and they stopped work on a wheelchair-accessible

2882
03:42:36,480 --> 03:42:39,350
vehicle simply because it was a regulation that required a

2883
03:42:39,350 --> 03:42:42,152
steering wheel. And they couldn't get past that.

2884
03:42:42,152 --> 03:42:46,352
but they had developed a wheelchair-accessible autonomous

2885
03:42:49,426 --> 03:42:51,940
vehicle. And because it had so much

2886
03:42:51,940 --> 03:42:56,701
problem in d.c. In regards to regulations, in regards to one

2887
03:42:56,701 --> 03:43:00,304
particular thing, having a steering wheel missing, they ran

2888
03:43:00,304 --> 03:43:05,642
into a roadblock. I will add to this, autonomous

2889
03:43:05,642 --> 03:43:08,779
vehicles are coming. Whether we want to admit it or

2890
03:43:08,779 --> 03:43:12,917
not. But to do it the right way

2891
03:43:12,917 --> 03:43:15,786
fos, to be on the right side of history,

2892
03:43:15,786 --> 03:43:19,923
I have seen it so many times. People on the wrong side of

2893
03:43:19,923 --> 03:43:23,194
history. >> mr. Braddy, one more question

2894
03:43:23,194 --> 03:43:25,329
for you. It's possible I didn't hear your

2895
03:43:25,329 --> 03:43:29,933
testimony the right way. I think I heard you recommending

2896
03:43:29,933 --> 03:43:35,333
that ddot has to have a permanent advisory committee.

2897
03:43:43,747 --> 03:43:44,348
we have the mrak. A

2898
03:43:44,348 --> 03:43:47,948
-- mac. Are you recommending --

2899
03:43:48,618 --> 03:43:51,555
>> yeah, if you write in they should use the mac, that would

2900
03:43:51,555 --> 03:43:53,290
be okay. But it has to be in it.

2901
03:43:53,290 --> 03:43:59,830
you get to get feedback from the people that the programs and

2902
03:43:59,830 --> 03:44:01,899
design to use. >> that is helpful.

2903
03:44:01,899 --> 03:44:04,835
I didn't understand -- now I understand what your

2904
03:44:04,835 --> 03:44:07,704
recommendation was. I don't think I followed it the

2905
03:44:07,704 --> 03:44:08,839
first time. That is helpful.

2906
03:44:08,839 --> 03:44:14,839
thank you very much. And then, miss case, you pointed

2907
03:44:14,912 --> 03:44:18,115
out, even though we have a law that says what the percentage of

2908
03:44:18,115 --> 03:44:22,720
vehicles needs to be, we -- you're flagging for it.

2909
03:44:22,720 --> 03:44:25,589
it doesn't mean the number of vehicles that are in the fleet

2910
03:44:25,589 --> 03:44:28,792
in operation on the street. That could count as a vehicle

2911
03:44:28,792 --> 03:44:31,329
that is just in a garage somewhere, right?

2912
03:44:31,329 --> 03:44:35,866
>> that is the way it is. The company has to have that

2913
03:44:35,866 --> 03:44:37,935
many vehicles. And it's only required of

2914
03:44:37,935 --> 03:44:42,806
companies in the legislation. >> I want to add about service

2915
03:44:42,806 --> 03:44:48,279
hours are much more limited. You can get a wave during the

2916
03:44:48,279 --> 03:44:50,147
day. But say you go out to dinner and

2917
03:44:50,147 --> 03:44:53,750
a show, good luck. That is another thing as far as

2918
03:44:53,750 --> 03:44:57,688
service requirements we need to be looking at for avs.

2919
03:44:57,688 --> 03:45:02,226
the same hours, the same wait times, that kind of thing.

2920
03:45:02,226 --> 03:45:06,297
>> so you didn't buy the arguments that waymos are going

2921
03:45:06,297 --> 03:45:08,965
to free up the other accessible vehicles?

2922
03:45:08,965 --> 03:45:11,969
>> it's not what happens. The drivers leave because they

2923
03:45:11,969 --> 03:45:14,104
can't make the money. The trip limits.

2924
03:45:14,104 --> 03:45:17,841
>> that is a 2013 argument. It's quite dated.

2925
03:45:17,841 --> 03:45:19,909
>> okay. This is a space where we have a

2926
03:45:19,909 --> 03:45:23,509
lot of work to do. >> yeah.

2927
03:45:24,447 --> 03:45:26,716
>> I think we've got some time in the next couple weeks and

2928
03:45:26,716 --> 03:45:30,120
months to really work with you, work with the mac and others.

2929
03:45:30,120 --> 03:45:33,257
I know, and thank you for hosting the conversation just

2930
03:45:33,257 --> 03:45:36,860
last week that my community director was able to join.

2931
03:45:36,860 --> 03:45:39,395
so we will stay engaged on that as well.

2932
03:45:39,395 --> 03:45:42,534
thank you. >> thank you very much.

2933
03:45:42,534 --> 03:45:46,536
>> councilmember, chairman, I have it to bring.

2934
03:45:46,536 --> 03:45:50,740
I brought with me. It's a be fierce sticker.

2935
03:45:50,740 --> 03:45:54,477
and in these days with big money's impact on policy and

2936
03:45:54,477 --> 03:45:58,820
politics, I call for all of us to be fierce.

2937
03:45:58,820 --> 03:46:01,818
and I would like to give that to you.

2938
03:46:01,818 --> 03:46:06,618
because you are and have been. Thank you.

2939
03:46:10,360 --> 03:46:14,560
>> I appreciate it. Thank you very much.

2940
03:46:16,900 --> 03:46:17,968
all right, I'm going to call our next panel of witnesses.

2941
03:46:17,968 --> 03:46:19,236
just give us a moment as we transition over the witness

2942
03:46:19,236 --> 03:46:23,436
table. The next panel, I have conner

2943
03:46:28,445 --> 03:46:31,515
couple cummings with the arc of

2944
03:46:31,515 --> 03:46:34,451
northern virginia. Claire standy, theed a voe kay

2945
03:46:34,451 --> 03:46:38,856
and government affairs, the american council of the blind.

2946
03:46:38,856 --> 03:46:44,256
kent keyser, a policy fellow with the united spinal

2947
03:46:44,795 --> 03:46:46,630
association. Scott thornhill, executive

2948
03:46:46,630 --> 03:46:49,399
director with the american council of the blind.

2949
03:46:49,399 --> 03:46:54,137
and ana torres-davis, executive director of the national council

2950
03:46:54,137 --> 03:46:57,137
of disability independent federal agency.

2951
03:47:36,579 --> 03:47:39,579
all right, good afternoon, everyone.

2952
03:47:40,717 --> 03:47:45,188
conner cummings. I will have you go first, and

2953
03:47:45,188 --> 03:47:47,724
after that, we will go to claire stanley, and after that, do I

2954
03:47:47,724 --> 03:47:53,124
have kent keyser here? We have folks online too.

2955
03:47:54,630 --> 03:47:54,932
mr. Cummings, I will start with you.

2956
03:47:54,932 --> 03:48:01,532
>> my name is conner cummings, I am a self-advocate, and I

2957
03:48:04,887 --> 03:48:05,955
represent the arc of northern virginia.

2958
03:48:05,955 --> 03:48:09,910
here is why this technology is so important to be in my

2959
03:48:09,910 --> 03:48:12,362
community. I am so excited for an av as we

2960
03:48:12,362 --> 03:48:16,562
match the needs for understanding the unexpected

2961
03:48:18,167 --> 03:48:20,567
surrounding in responding appropriately.

2962
03:48:24,575 --> 03:48:27,709
one. People who can't drive will be

2963
03:48:27,709 --> 03:48:33,109
able to get around easier. Many autistic individuals will

2964
03:48:35,384 --> 03:48:40,184
feel comfortable in a vehicle. Plea, broad benefits.

2965
03:48:40,256 --> 03:48:41,791
avs won't just support people with disabilities.

2966
03:48:41,791 --> 03:48:46,195
they will be a lifeline for seniors who can no longer drive.

2967
03:48:46,195 --> 03:48:49,665
four, greater independent. This technology will provide

2968
03:48:49,665 --> 03:48:54,136
massive independent for people who are blind, as well as those

2969
03:48:54,136 --> 03:48:59,275
with night blindness who can safely navigate the day and lose

2970
03:48:59,275 --> 03:49:02,875
freedom after dark. Five, new opportunities.

2971
03:49:02,946 --> 03:49:08,946
I feel an incredible sense of independence because an av

2972
03:49:10,152 --> 03:49:13,422
creates freedom to go where I want.

2973
03:49:13,422 --> 03:49:16,558
and autonomous vehicles will get me to where I want to go, and

2974
03:49:16,558 --> 03:49:19,950
they will not speed or run through red lights.

2975
03:49:19,950 --> 03:49:24,495
we must ensure they are adaptable to any possible

2976
03:49:25,340 --> 03:49:29,505
situation and real time hazards. Seven, no fear of getting lost.

2977
03:49:29,505 --> 03:49:34,305
I wouldn't lose my way of getting disoriented.

2978
03:49:34,843 --> 03:49:39,916
and fewer human errors. I feel avs are safer than

2979
03:49:39,916 --> 03:49:44,116
regular cars because they eliminate human errors.

2980
03:49:44,721 --> 03:49:47,121
and unpredictable driver emotions.

2981
03:49:47,656 --> 03:49:50,126
ensuring implementation, and safety first.

2982
03:49:50,126 --> 03:49:56,726
this autonomous vehicle opens a vehicle for so many of us.

2983
03:49:57,400 --> 03:50:02,200
and I have suggestions that developers should consider.

2984
03:50:04,673 --> 03:50:07,673
integration. Will a vehicle understand

2985
03:50:09,212 --> 03:50:14,120
augmented communication? Many people use apps or devices

2986
03:50:15,284 --> 03:50:18,620
to speak. The device must be fully

2987
03:50:18,620 --> 03:50:22,220
accessible and come partible wi --

2988
03:50:24,160 --> 03:50:28,964
compatible of each other. No matter how we speak, with

2989
03:50:28,964 --> 03:50:34,964
aav, typing or with the mouth. And also include wheelchair

2990
03:50:35,838 --> 03:50:37,907
accessible vehicles. Environmental impact.

2991
03:50:37,907 --> 03:50:42,440
because they are alleged cars, they will provide clearer air

2992
03:50:42,440 --> 03:50:45,644
for the communities. Community training, disability

2993
03:50:48,500 --> 03:50:54,650
organizations can provide lessons on how to ride in an av.

2994
03:50:56,926 --> 03:51:01,263
my mom and I can train it to say please and thank you.

2995
03:51:01,263 --> 03:51:04,863
>> let me turn to claire stanley.

2996
03:51:08,470 --> 03:51:10,673
yep, thank you. >> thank you so much.

2997
03:51:10,673 --> 03:51:12,808
thank you so much for the opportunity to be here this

2998
03:51:12,808 --> 03:51:14,409
afternoon. My name is claire stanley, and

2999
03:51:14,409 --> 03:51:19,548
I'm the director of advocacy and the government affairs for the

3000
03:51:19,548 --> 03:51:25,220
american council of the blind. The acb is the nation's leading

3001
03:51:25,220 --> 03:51:27,356
member-driven organization of and for individuals who are

3002
03:51:27,356 --> 03:51:31,160
individuals who are blind or have low vision.

3003
03:51:31,160 --> 03:51:36,560
founded in 1961 and comprised of 65 state and special interest

3004
03:51:38,166 --> 03:51:42,966
affiliates, acb strives for the security opportunity, and

3005
03:51:43,172 --> 03:51:47,909
improve the quality of life for people who are blind or have low

3006
03:51:47,909 --> 03:51:50,646
visions, including our thousands of members.

3007
03:51:50,646 --> 03:51:55,985
our national office is located right here in old time

3008
03:51:55,985 --> 03:51:59,255
alexandria, virginia, and we routinely travel to washington,

3009
03:51:59,255 --> 03:52:03,726
d.c. To carry out work on capitol hill or with the

3010
03:52:03,726 --> 03:52:07,926
numerous federal agencies. Transportation remains one of

3011
03:52:10,132 --> 03:52:14,700
the biggest barriers for people who are blind or low vision.

3012
03:52:14,700 --> 03:52:18,270
we are relying on forms of transformation.

3013
03:52:20,750 --> 03:52:22,945
if they don't have access, they can't travel to work, access

3014
03:52:22,945 --> 03:52:27,145
medical care or engaging in community activity.

3015
03:52:30,686 --> 03:52:34,286
marge imagine if you needed medical

3016
03:52:36,825 --> 03:52:39,270
treatment and you had knno way get there.

3017
03:52:39,270 --> 03:52:42,899
it will provide information for people who are blinds or have

3018
03:52:42,899 --> 03:52:46,168
low vision. This will help to erode the

3019
03:52:46,168 --> 03:52:50,172
access barriers that so many of us face because of access

3020
03:52:50,172 --> 03:52:51,240
issues. Washington, d.c. Is well

3021
03:52:51,240 --> 03:52:54,840
respected for the public transportation system.

3022
03:52:56,379 --> 03:52:59,848
many members of the disability community applaud the metro for

3023
03:52:59,848 --> 03:53:03,452
being one of the most accessible systems in the united states.

3024
03:53:03,452 --> 03:53:09,570
however, its reach is limited. There are still portions of the

3025
03:53:09,570 --> 03:53:11,727
district that the metro rail does not reach to.

3026
03:53:11,727 --> 03:53:14,196
additionally, the hours of operation are limited.

3027
03:53:14,196 --> 03:53:17,666
access to autonomous vehicles around the clock and in all

3028
03:53:17,666 --> 03:53:21,737
parts of the district will be another form of transportation

3029
03:53:21,737 --> 03:53:24,206
option. The more options we have, the

3030
03:53:24,206 --> 03:53:29,606
more mobility we can have. Additionally, blind persons who

3031
03:53:30,145 --> 03:53:36,418
use guide dogs to travel around the city are repeatedly denied

3032
03:53:36,418 --> 03:53:43,180
access to ride shares. As a person with a guide dog

3033
03:53:44,493 --> 03:53:50,566
myself, she is under the dog, I have lost count how many times I

3034
03:53:50,566 --> 03:53:54,169
have been denied access because of my guide dog.

3035
03:53:54,169 --> 03:53:56,838
regardless of the laws, the problem continues.

3036
03:53:56,838 --> 03:54:02,111
I have found myself in situations where it was raining,

3037
03:54:02,111 --> 03:54:06,115
extremely cold or where I had a meeting to be at, and I was

3038
03:54:06,115 --> 03:54:08,594
repeatedly denied rides by the drivers.

3039
03:54:08,594 --> 03:54:14,133
one of the most ironic and hurtful ride share denial took

3040
03:54:14,133 --> 03:54:18,333
place in front of the security of

3041
03:54:18,671 --> 03:54:19,606
-- supreme court of the united states.

3042
03:54:19,606 --> 03:54:23,609
there is no driver to say no with autonomous.

3043
03:54:23,609 --> 03:54:27,813
I can travel in an autonomous vehicle knowing no human being

3044
03:54:27,813 --> 03:54:31,830
can say no in my right to access transportation.

3045
03:54:31,830 --> 03:54:37,830
to learn more about my experience, you can read the

3046
03:54:42,950 --> 03:54:45,950
"washington post" op-ed from december 2025.

3047
03:54:45,498 --> 03:54:50,436
as an adult who can never drive, the first time I took an

3048
03:54:50,436 --> 03:54:54,107
autonomous vehicle in phoenix, I experienced freedom.

3049
03:54:54,107 --> 03:54:59,711
I was in a -- I was in a vehicle all by myself.

3050
03:54:59,711 --> 03:55:03,783
I had autonomy. I did not have to deal with

3051
03:55:03,783 --> 03:55:05,518
drivers to deny because of my guide dog.

3052
03:55:05,518 --> 03:55:09,789
I did not have to deal with a driver who made me uncomfortable

3053
03:55:09,789 --> 03:55:12,258
because of the things he said to me.

3054
03:55:12,258 --> 03:55:17,196
when avs come to the district, I will have a resource to give me

3055
03:55:17,196 --> 03:55:20,196
autonomy, freedom, safety and peace.

3056
03:55:22,268 --> 03:55:26,538
blind individuals will have transportation options and the

3057
03:55:26,538 --> 03:55:32,277
more ready bli available options will be more safe and likely not

3058
03:55:32,277 --> 03:55:36,281
receive -- excuse me. I urge you to approve though

3059
03:55:36,281 --> 03:55:42,281
legislation that will bring avs to the district of columbia.

3060
03:55:42,488 --> 03:55:45,158
the more option that blind and low vision community have to

3061
03:55:45,158 --> 03:55:49,940
access transportation, the more involved we can become in the

3062
03:55:49,940 --> 03:55:51,831
community. This is a tool we can use to be

3063
03:55:51,831 --> 03:55:57,636
more it and engage in the essential activities of life.

3064
03:55:57,636 --> 03:56:00,907
so please move forward with the legislation.

3065
03:56:00,907 --> 03:56:02,174
thank you. >> thank you.

3066
03:56:02,174 --> 03:56:06,974
we move to kent keyser who is online.

3067
03:56:07,180 --> 03:56:11,117
and after that, we go to scott thornhill.

3068
03:56:11,117 --> 03:56:17,117
mr. Keyser, if you can hear me, when you're ready.

3069
03:56:17,256 --> 03:56:20,856
>> thank you. The united finspinal associatio

3070
03:56:22,127 --> 03:56:25,127
rep sdentss 5.5 million wheelchair users.

3071
03:56:26,665 --> 03:56:30,265
we fully support autonomous vehicle deployment.

3072
03:56:31,700 --> 03:56:33,472
the testing and commercial operations.

3073
03:56:33,472 --> 03:56:38,272
every av mile traveled adds to the safety.

3074
03:56:40,479 --> 03:56:45,884
and av rz developed by industry. We are speeding up that day with

3075
03:56:45,884 --> 03:56:51,284
our security ride coalition work on automated wheelchair secu

3076
03:56:51,890 --> 03:56:57,280
security -- securement. We urge you to consider the

3077
03:56:57,280 --> 03:57:00,165
following components in a future version of the bill.

3078
03:57:00,165 --> 03:57:03,165
please incorporate zero tolerance anti-discrimination

3079
03:57:05,303 --> 03:57:11,903
policy, citing the d.c. Human rights act and americans with

3080
03:57:12,440 --> 03:57:15,180
disabilities act. D.c. Is not an island itself.

3081
03:57:15,180 --> 03:57:18,784
we urge to you work with virginia, maryland and the kwoun

3082
03:57:18,784 --> 03:57:22,721
sill of governments in the community to ensure seamless

3083
03:57:22,721 --> 03:57:27,521
legislation for the dmv. As a decades-old commuter

3084
03:57:30,262 --> 03:57:37,462
myself, and 20 years a s as a wheelchair user, the dmv can

3085
03:57:46,612 --> 03:57:50,148
demonstrate to the world how av kz improve people's lives.

3086
03:57:50,148 --> 03:57:56,148
the challenging means that safe, accessible, reliable and pick up

3087
03:57:56,288 --> 03:57:57,824
and dropoff spodz need to break ground.

3088
03:57:57,824 --> 03:58:01,960
well, in the last decade. And please, for get the idea

3089
03:58:01,960 --> 03:58:07,960
that accessibility is just for wheelchair guys or folks with

3090
03:58:09,835 --> 03:58:12,235
disabilities. Accessibility serves everyone.

3091
03:58:12,304 --> 03:58:15,907
conduct needs with operators and us with infrastructure and

3092
03:58:15,907 --> 03:58:22,381
public rights of way such as sidewalks, curb cuts and pick up

3093
03:58:22,381 --> 03:58:25,985
and dropoffs. The place where I am dropped off

3094
03:58:25,985 --> 03:58:30,456
is the entrance and exit of a parking garage.

3095
03:58:30,456 --> 03:58:33,859
how safe is that? Considering the district has

3096
03:58:33,859 --> 03:58:37,459
almost 37,000 people with ambulatory difficulties, you

3097
03:58:39,650 --> 03:58:42,665
have more work to do. Sorry.

3098
03:58:45,871 --> 03:58:48,808
>> that's okay. Take your time.

3099
03:58:48,808 --> 03:58:53,800
>> thank you. The district must build an

3100
03:58:53,278 --> 03:58:57,883
infrastructure to address the problem that wheelchair users

3101
03:58:57,883 --> 03:59:02,688
are 36% more likely to die in traffic collusions compared to

3102
03:59:02,688 --> 03:59:06,888
the general population. Importantly, when our av

3103
03:59:08,930 --> 03:59:14,930
arrives, we must be able to safely identify it and

3104
03:59:15,234 --> 03:59:17,970
communicate with it. And with the human machine

3105
03:59:17,970 --> 03:59:20,305
interface. In the event of an emergency,

3106
03:59:20,305 --> 03:59:26,905
there must be redundant ways for us to be safely evacuated.

3107
03:59:27,179 --> 03:59:33,853
in fact, require safety plans. At a minimum, and prior to major

3108
03:59:33,853 --> 03:59:38,653
deployment, establish a program that is transparent, without

3109
03:59:42,329 --> 03:59:45,329
jurj injuring pedestrians, or riders,

3110
03:59:45,931 --> 03:59:51,931
and will be processed, kof compensated in a time frame.

3111
03:59:53,872 --> 03:59:59,411
inspect lieu of the current lack of wheelchair accessible avs,

3112
03:59:59,411 --> 04:00:01,414
separate but equal is in fact equal.

3113
04:00:01,414 --> 04:00:05,618
we know that is impossible, as we heard this morning.

3114
04:00:05,618 --> 04:00:13,692
but make it as equal as it can be by requiring key data to be

3115
04:00:13,692 --> 04:00:17,292
reported. Please require av operators to

3116
04:00:17,897 --> 04:00:23,777
regularly report to ddot and include the documenting of the

3117
04:00:23,777 --> 04:00:28,577
number of accessible ride requests, rides fulfilled, wait

3118
04:00:30,717 --> 04:00:35,655
times, days and times and data for inaccessible rides to ensure

3119
04:00:35,655 --> 04:00:39,593
equitable services provided. Please know that I am not

3120
04:00:39,593 --> 04:00:42,596
reducing my brothers and sisters to a data set.

3121
04:00:42,596 --> 04:00:49,336
just like the abled bodies, a minute waiting for a pickup or

3122
04:00:49,336 --> 04:00:50,672
dropoff time is time and money wasted.

3123
04:00:50,672 --> 04:00:53,807
thank you for remembers the value of the drivers in the

3124
04:00:53,807 --> 04:00:57,407
bill. Experienced drivers are a vast

3125
04:00:58,946 --> 04:01:01,948
wealth of knowledge when and where and how traffic moves.

3126
04:01:01,948 --> 04:01:06,219
they have a transportation asset that can drive circles around

3127
04:01:06,219 --> 04:01:08,556
the best transportation out there.

3128
04:01:08,556 --> 04:01:12,156
they can assist av operators tremendously.

3129
04:01:12,160 --> 04:01:15,162
please track their job transitions and fully report the

3130
04:01:15,162 --> 04:01:17,498
efforts to assist them. Thank you very much.

3131
04:01:17,498 --> 04:01:19,900
and happy to answer any questions.

3132
04:01:19,900 --> 04:01:25,900
>> great, thank you very much. Next, we turn to scott

3133
04:01:26,107 --> 04:01:27,641
thornhill. Good afternoon.

3134
04:01:27,641 --> 04:01:29,510
>> good afternoon. Chairman allen and fellow

3135
04:01:29,510 --> 04:01:34,480
members of the council, thank you for the opportunity to speak

3136
04:01:34,480 --> 04:01:40,480
with you today mrfrp. My name is scott thornhill and

3137
04:01:45,659 --> 04:01:49,530
I'm the executive director of the american council of the

3138
04:01:49,530 --> 04:01:51,998
blind. I will begin with a confession,

3139
04:01:51,998 --> 04:01:57,398
chairman allen. Like most teenagers of my era, I

3140
04:01:59,473 --> 04:02:03,900
could not wait to drive a vehicle.

3141
04:02:03,900 --> 04:02:09,900
unlike most teenagers of my generation, I was losing my

3142
04:02:11,217 --> 04:02:14,221
sight. It was due to an eye disease, rp

3143
04:02:14,221 --> 04:02:18,250
for short. I did sneak behind the wheel a

3144
04:02:18,250 --> 04:02:20,827
couple times. I don't recommend that for

3145
04:02:20,827 --> 04:02:22,830
people who are losing their sight.

3146
04:02:22,830 --> 04:02:25,833
and thankfully, it can't become a habit.

3147
04:02:25,833 --> 04:02:31,833
the point is this. I never qualified for a driver's

3148
04:02:34,107 --> 04:02:34,974
license due to failing the eye test.

3149
04:02:34,974 --> 04:02:38,912
for most people in the district and across the nation, driving

3150
04:02:38,912 --> 04:02:43,184
represents independence. For those of us who are blind,

3151
04:02:43,184 --> 04:02:47,121
transportation has always depended on the options

3152
04:02:47,121 --> 04:02:50,721
available to us. Driving represents independence.

3153
04:02:59,400 --> 04:03:06,000
for those who are blind, transportation is -- I use ride

3154
04:03:07,207 --> 04:03:10,143
share regular. I rely on public transportation.

3155
04:03:10,143 --> 04:03:14,800
both have expanded opportunities for people who are blind, and I

3156
04:03:14,800 --> 04:03:16,883
value them tremendously. But independence is not created

3157
04:03:16,883 --> 04:03:20,200
by having one way to travel. It's created by choices.

3158
04:03:20,200 --> 04:03:24,424
the american council of the blind has long advocated for

3159
04:03:24,424 --> 04:03:28,624
those choices for people who are blind.

3160
04:03:29,960 --> 04:03:34,635
we view autonomous vehicles in the next step, important step in

3161
04:03:34,635 --> 04:03:37,639
expanding the choices. It's just another way to get

3162
04:03:37,639 --> 04:03:42,420
from one place to another. People who are blind, it

3163
04:03:42,420 --> 04:03:44,377
represents something that is more significant.

3164
04:03:44,377 --> 04:03:50,117
they have a potential to expand access to employment, education,

3165
04:03:50,117 --> 04:03:54,317
community activities and countless everyday things people

3166
04:03:58,125 --> 04:04:02,196
take for granded. And because washington is the

3167
04:04:02,196 --> 04:04:05,733
nation's capital, millions of people who are blind every year

3168
04:04:05,733 --> 04:04:11,133
travel here for work, advocacy, for tourism, enjoying the

3169
04:04:16,209 --> 04:04:22,209
monuments and the museums that belong to all of us.

3170
04:04:22,315 --> 04:04:26,220
expanding transportation helps make the district more welcoming

3171
04:04:26,220 --> 04:04:31,200
to visitors. Most people don't plan their day

3172
04:04:31,892 --> 04:04:34,227
around transportation. They plan transportation around

3173
04:04:34,227 --> 04:04:37,898
their day. Those who are blind have to do

3174
04:04:37,898 --> 04:04:42,102
the opposite. We think whether a ride will be

3175
04:04:42,102 --> 04:04:45,372
available, and whether we need someone else for assistance.

3176
04:04:45,372 --> 04:04:48,776
transportation shapes many of the choices we need before we

3177
04:04:48,776 --> 04:04:52,376
leave home. Autonomous vehicles will not

3178
04:04:54,180 --> 04:04:59,580
replace public transportation or ride share or taxi services.

3179
04:04:59,986 --> 04:05:01,989
b but they can become another

3180
04:05:01,989 --> 04:05:06,789
option, one that gives greater flexibility, independence and

3181
04:05:06,994 --> 04:05:10,130
opportunity. As you can consider this

3182
04:05:10,130 --> 04:05:14,735
technology, we implore you to make sure that accessibility

3183
04:05:14,735 --> 04:05:18,272
remains at the forefront. That you consider it in

3184
04:05:18,272 --> 04:05:22,472
everything that you do around this subject.

3185
04:05:22,543 --> 04:05:27,281
autonomous vehicles won't change the fact that I am blind.

3186
04:05:27,281 --> 04:05:32,552
but they can change what blindness means when it comes to

3187
04:05:32,552 --> 04:05:34,555
getting around. They have the potential to give

3188
04:05:34,555 --> 04:05:39,355
people who cannot drive something many others rarely

3189
04:05:40,427 --> 04:05:45,227
think about. The freedom to choose how and

3190
04:05:45,299 --> 04:05:48,501
when we travel. Thank you for your time and

3191
04:05:48,501 --> 04:05:51,380
consideration. And I'm happy to answer any

3192
04:05:51,380 --> 04:05:54,638
questions. >> thank you very much, mr.

3193
04:05:54,774 --> 04:05:57,177
thornhill. And last on the panel, let me

3194
04:05:57,177 --> 04:06:03,177
turn to ana torres-davis who is joining us on zoom.

3195
04:06:08,455 --> 04:06:11,455
there we go. Good afternoon.

3196
04:06:11,792 --> 04:06:13,660
>> good afternoon. Can you hear me?

3197
04:06:13,660 --> 04:06:17,260
>> yes, we can. Whenever you're ready.

3198
04:06:20,134 --> 04:06:26,500
>> members of the committee, my name is ana torres-davis and I'm

3199
04:06:26,500 --> 04:06:29,949
executive director of the council of disability, an

3200
04:06:29,949 --> 04:06:34,749
independent federal agency that advises the president, federal

3201
04:06:36,155 --> 04:06:40,293
agencies and disability policy. I am here today to share

3202
04:06:40,293 --> 04:06:46,293
information from the 2025 report to examine the current state of

3203
04:06:48,701 --> 04:06:52,901
grand transportation for people with disability, particularly

3204
04:06:54,107 --> 04:06:55,842
wheelchair. And to make sure that this

3205
04:06:55,842 --> 04:06:58,644
population is addressed in the av bill.

3206
04:06:58,644 --> 04:07:04,440
in the report titled ground transportation for people with

3207
04:07:06,185 --> 04:07:08,185
disability, 2025, challenges in 3

3208
04:07:10,560 --> 04:07:14,856
progress, we found that wheelchair users with vehicles

3209
04:07:14,861 --> 04:07:18,932
with ramp access, have been consistently left behind in the

3210
04:07:18,932 --> 04:07:23,736
ability to use the most common transportation options available

3211
04:07:23,736 --> 04:07:26,539
today, like ride shares and taxis.

3212
04:07:26,539 --> 04:07:31,945
while most people can get a ride within minutes of getting an app

3213
04:07:31,945 --> 04:07:36,549
and benefit from the inconvenient, they will not

3214
04:07:36,549 --> 04:07:39,618
benefit from the advances in transportation.

3215
04:07:39,618 --> 04:07:46,158
we examine the accessibility of taxis and yuber in d.c., and we

3216
04:07:46,158 --> 04:07:52,758
found there is a shortage in waves, and it has impacted

3217
04:07:53,366 --> 04:07:55,168
residents and workers in the district.

3218
04:07:55,168 --> 04:07:59,968
the inability to access common on demand consistransportation.

3219
04:08:08,648 --> 04:08:13,448
the inability to meet employment responsibilities and educational

3220
04:08:14,120 --> 04:08:17,720
goals. To attend family functions and

3221
04:08:18,190 --> 04:08:22,395
recreation effects. To get medical care, and meet

3222
04:08:22,395 --> 04:08:27,195
life obligations. They are often left waiting or

3223
04:08:27,734 --> 04:08:31,334
left without any transportation at all.

3224
04:08:32,204 --> 04:08:34,673
up ending planning and putting them in danger.

3225
04:08:34,673 --> 04:08:39,679
the report discusses the plan for autonomous vehicles to

3226
04:08:39,679 --> 04:08:44,483
expand access tor all people with disabilities and to ensure

3227
04:08:44,483 --> 04:08:50,556
that access is at the forefront as avs are developed and

3228
04:08:50,556 --> 04:08:54,159
deployed. When you introduce the bill, you

3229
04:08:54,159 --> 04:08:58,232
provide access. We agree this is true.

3230
04:08:58,232 --> 04:09:02,235
but to do this, it must be inclusive of wheelchair users.

3231
04:09:02,235 --> 04:09:06,171
while certain portions of the disability community, as we

3232
04:09:06,171 --> 04:09:12,171
heard today, benefit and concurrently act ssz cess and b,

3233
04:09:15,448 --> 04:09:18,851
they have not being served by this technology.

3234
04:09:18,851 --> 04:09:23,589
the businesses that currently provide transportation to the

3235
04:09:23,589 --> 04:09:31,989
public in tax zips is like waymy have limited ways like we do in

3236
04:09:37,870 --> 04:09:39,405
d.c. To the extent that av companies

3237
04:09:39,405 --> 04:09:44,805
plan to rely on existing, nonautonomous way process vieded

3238
04:09:46,145 --> 04:09:49,810
by providers to offer transportation in the district.

3239
04:09:49,810 --> 04:09:55,681
we found this model worsens service because it relies on a

3240
04:09:56,220 --> 04:09:58,825
limited fly of waves that is overstressed.

3241
04:09:58,825 --> 04:10:01,694
an example of this exists already in d.c.

3242
04:10:01,694 --> 04:10:08,294
uber does not provide waves. It refers passengers who need a

3243
04:10:08,501 --> 04:10:13,705
wave to local providers, often taxis that are not accessible.

3244
04:10:13,705 --> 04:10:18,177
due to the limited hours they are in service, wheelchair users

3245
04:10:18,177 --> 04:10:24,500
experience long waits, if a wave is available at all, adding

3246
04:10:24,500 --> 04:10:30,122
hundreds of inaccessible avs to the roads with no option, and

3247
04:10:30,122 --> 04:10:33,860
will do nothing to help provide better wave service in d.c.

3248
04:10:33,860 --> 04:10:38,464
the d.c. Av law should require companies to provide a

3249
04:10:38,464 --> 04:10:45,700
percentage of their own waves when they begin serves d.c., not

3250
04:10:45,700 --> 04:10:49,942
rely on a supply that is overburdened and I would love to

3251
04:10:49,942 --> 04:10:53,746
be able to reply to the questions you asked the previous

3252
04:10:53,746 --> 04:10:55,414
panel. Because there are options

3253
04:10:55,414 --> 04:10:59,352
available for autonomous vehicles that are accessible

3254
04:10:59,352 --> 04:11:06,552
that have a safety driver. As c.t. Tyson mentioned, the may

3255
04:11:06,759 --> 04:11:10,697
mobility, that is a company that can be contracted with to bring

3256
04:11:10,697 --> 04:11:15,301
vehicles with the autonomous fleets into the district so they

3257
04:11:15,301 --> 04:11:19,380
are adding waves to what currently exists in the city,

3258
04:11:19,380 --> 04:11:21,707
rather than relying on what is there now.

3259
04:11:21,707 --> 04:11:25,110
and my time is up, and I will leave it at that.

3260
04:11:25,110 --> 04:11:27,460
I'm happy to answer any questions you may have.

3261
04:11:27,460 --> 04:11:29,850
thank you again for the opportunity.

3262
04:11:29,850 --> 04:11:31,517
>> excellent, thank you very much.

3263
04:11:31,517 --> 04:11:33,453
thanks to everybody on this panel.

3264
04:11:33,453 --> 04:11:38,124
let me jump in with a couple questions.

3265
04:11:38,124 --> 04:11:42,924
especially mr. Cummings, miss stanley and mr. Thornhill.

3266
04:11:44,930 --> 04:11:50,136
can I hear your testimony with a little enthusiasm, about

3267
04:11:50,136 --> 04:11:54,336
autonomous vehicles. They can help restore travel

3268
04:11:55,341 --> 04:11:59,144
independence to people who are blind, and individuals with

3269
04:11:59,144 --> 04:12:01,280
autism. They are opportunities.

3270
04:12:01,280 --> 04:12:07,880
despite the advances, are there any gaps that you would e

3271
04:12:08,421 --> 04:12:11,757
identify, and not just create a pathway for commercial

3272
04:12:11,757 --> 04:12:13,493
operation. But in your support for them,

3273
04:12:13,493 --> 04:12:18,697
are they recommendations that you have that we should keep on

3274
04:12:18,697 --> 04:12:25,897
eye out for, to make sure they can fulfill the perhromise thatu

3275
04:12:26,105 --> 04:12:28,908
can helping to do. Miss sftanley?

3276
04:12:28,908 --> 04:12:33,178
>> yeah, we want to make sure that new forms of autonomous

3277
04:12:33,178 --> 04:12:37,450
vehicles coming out on the street, they are made accessible

3278
04:12:37,450 --> 04:12:39,987
for the blind and low vision community.

3279
04:12:39,987 --> 04:12:43,390
we had the opportunity to work with all of the -- what I will

3280
04:12:43,390 --> 04:12:46,126
call main stream autonomous vehicle companies that have

3281
04:12:46,126 --> 04:12:53,326
actually been on the road in cities such as waymo and zuks,

3282
04:12:54,201 --> 04:12:58,872
and we should wonderful experiencens seeing how the apps

3283
04:12:58,872 --> 04:13:04,272
have been accessible with screen reading software, and putting

3284
04:13:05,110 --> 04:13:07,613
out audio sound so we can locate them.

3285
04:13:07,613 --> 04:13:10,816
I have myself taking them without a single person, just me

3286
04:13:10,816 --> 04:13:16,357
and my dog, using the accessible functions and features put in

3287
04:13:16,357 --> 04:13:19,759
the app itself and the car. I have been able to do it

3288
04:13:19,759 --> 04:13:25,159
independently. Is we would love and be happy to

3289
04:13:28,968 --> 04:13:31,638
see it mrput in place. But we have had great

3290
04:13:31,638 --> 04:13:36,776
opportunities with the companies we have seen with the zuks and

3291
04:13:36,776 --> 04:13:40,976
waymos have put in place. >> mr. Thornhill?

3292
04:13:41,914 --> 04:13:45,385
>> yeah, I wanted to make sure. Yeah, there is always a balance,

3293
04:13:45,385 --> 04:13:47,454
as you have been seeing here today, and listening to the

3294
04:13:47,454 --> 04:13:52,254
previous panels. And in this case, you asked

3295
04:13:52,392 --> 04:13:53,860
about gaps. You asked about that.

3296
04:13:53,860 --> 04:13:58,931
I think the balance of safety, saferty and functionality or

3297
04:13:58,931 --> 04:14:04,404
ease of use, whatever terminology we put to that, I

3298
04:14:04,404 --> 04:14:07,673
think certainly as we helped advise and helped work and we

3299
04:14:07,673 --> 04:14:12,679
are willing to continue that on terms of an advisory network or

3300
04:14:12,679 --> 04:14:18,217
council as well, any work that is in the district, certain

3301
04:14:18,217 --> 04:14:22,955
thingsky speak to with waymo, having ridden in waymo several

3302
04:14:22,955 --> 04:14:27,493
times now, that the features that miss stanley spoke about,

3303
04:14:27,493 --> 04:14:30,963
in terms of how to locate the vehicle and while you are inside

3304
04:14:30,963 --> 04:14:35,101
the vehicle, that balance of safety, in terms of where you

3305
04:14:35,101 --> 04:14:39,301
are dropped off. Like you mentioned, the

3306
04:14:39,438 --> 04:14:43,709
residential street, how it's done, and what we expect from

3307
04:14:43,709 --> 04:14:47,980
uber or lift, and double parking, quote unquote, in

3308
04:14:47,980 --> 04:14:52,919
certain cities, is not feasible, so pick up at corners and along

3309
04:14:52,919 --> 04:14:56,990
those things. So being able to navigate to the

3310
04:14:56,990 --> 04:14:59,659
vehicles is crucially important. I would be able to see where

3311
04:14:59,659 --> 04:15:01,595
they are. And to be able to do that, and

3312
04:15:01,595 --> 04:15:04,397
where you get dropped off at the end of the ride.

3313
04:15:04,397 --> 04:15:08,000
so that balance of that functionality of making sure

3314
04:15:08,000 --> 04:15:13,720
that we're at a place where we can navigate well, and the

3315
04:15:13,720 --> 04:15:16,609
safety of where the vehicles would be allowed to drop off and

3316
04:15:16,609 --> 04:15:20,213
pickup is going to be something we want to follow closely.

3317
04:15:20,213 --> 04:15:25,685
but the gaps as they exist today, I believe, are the things

3318
04:15:25,685 --> 04:15:29,890
that everyone would be aware of. And they have done so much work

3319
04:15:29,890 --> 04:15:33,225
in navigating the streets and gathering information that it

3320
04:15:33,225 --> 04:15:38,970
feels like the gaps are fine tuning some of the elements we

3321
04:15:38,970 --> 04:15:40,233
are talked about. >> thank you.

3322
04:15:40,233 --> 04:15:42,168
mr. Cummings, anything to add to that?

3323
04:15:42,168 --> 04:15:46,368
>> sure. I just want to say that

3324
04:15:48,241 --> 04:15:54,180
autonomous vehicles, would not only be safe and have more

3325
04:15:54,180 --> 04:16:00,180
freedom for blindness or the elderly and the course of

3326
04:16:02,655 --> 04:16:07,259
autism, the disabilities, but they would be able to provide

3327
04:16:07,259 --> 04:16:11,459
cleaner fuel because they are electric cars.

3328
04:16:16,936 --> 04:16:22,141
although my communication style, I tie my words when I breathe

3329
04:16:22,141 --> 04:16:25,344
them. I can respond later with you

3330
04:16:25,344 --> 04:16:30,144
with written words. So thank you for your

3331
04:16:31,484 --> 04:16:32,618
ekomizat accommodation.

3332
04:16:32,618 --> 04:16:35,554
>> thank you. Mr. Keyser, do you have anything

3333
04:16:35,554 --> 04:16:41,940
to add from what we heard? >> just, if we would -- if

3334
04:16:41,940 --> 04:16:47,100
military users enjoy the same freedoms because as it is now,

3335
04:16:47,100 --> 04:16:52,380
when we ride, we have to be secured by another person.

3336
04:16:52,380 --> 04:16:56,420
and that person has to be trained and competent.

3337
04:16:56,420 --> 04:17:00,842
so we're in the hands often of strangers.

3338
04:17:01,649 --> 04:17:07,490
supposedly trained strangers, but that doesn't always go well.

3339
04:17:07,520 --> 04:17:13,193
so reliving that human element is a modicum of safety that we

3340
04:17:13,193 --> 04:17:17,197
would enjoy as well as freedom on the road.

3341
04:17:17,197 --> 04:17:22,680
>> and miss torres-davis, you ran out of time and you were

3342
04:17:22,680 --> 04:17:24,270
looking to share information you had around av options.

3343
04:17:24,270 --> 04:17:29,750
so I want to give you extra time if there were things you wanted

3344
04:17:29,750 --> 04:17:32,412
to identify different alternatives and different

3345
04:17:32,412 --> 04:17:34,681
models that would be pursued. I want to make sure you have

3346
04:17:34,681 --> 04:17:37,350
time for that. >> thank you so much.

3347
04:17:37,350 --> 04:17:42,488
yeah, we examined a lot of the av companies that are providing

3348
04:17:42,488 --> 04:17:47,827
a rise to the public right now and working on new models.

3349
04:17:47,827 --> 04:17:53,433
and one of the things that we wound is a very bright light was

3350
04:17:53,433 --> 04:18:00,390
a company called main mobility. I am not here to promote them.

3351
04:18:00,390 --> 04:18:06,178
but what we found is this is a company who contracts with

3352
04:18:06,178 --> 04:18:08,178
cities, municipalities, localities.

3353
04:18:11,117 --> 04:18:15,917
they modify sienna vans for accessibility with ramps.

3354
04:18:17,458 --> 04:18:21,661
and then they provide services to is the cities.

3355
04:18:21,661 --> 04:18:26,465
specialty services just to pick up the people with disabilities

3356
04:18:26,465 --> 04:18:30,536
and it's on demand. Just like a uber would be.

3357
04:18:30,536 --> 04:18:35,408
and this company is doing it now on a small scale.

3358
04:18:35,408 --> 04:18:41,680
and so, like c.t. Tyson engs mentioned earlier, this is

3359
04:18:41,680 --> 04:18:46,152
probably a really good option for companies like waymo who

3360
04:18:46,152 --> 04:18:49,842
says we have a tech company, not a developer of a vehicle.

3361
04:18:49,842 --> 04:18:52,512
you don't have to be a developer of a vehicle.

3362
04:18:52,512 --> 04:18:54,581
you can use what is out there now.

3363
04:18:54,581 --> 04:18:59,119
right now, we are aware of main mobility.

3364
04:18:59,119 --> 04:19:04,791
I'm not sure if other companies have joined in producing and

3365
04:19:04,791 --> 04:19:09,463
deploying that type of van. But my bigger point is to that,

3366
04:19:09,463 --> 04:19:14,670
if waymo, for example, comes in the city and they bring 200

3367
04:19:14,670 --> 04:19:17,871
vehicles, it would be great if there was a require they bring

3368
04:19:17,871 --> 04:19:23,871
with them a percentage that can accessible by contracting with

3369
04:19:25,812 --> 04:19:28,681
an outside vendser and not usin what we have already in the

3370
04:19:28,681 --> 04:19:32,619
city, which is already so limited, as we have heard from

3371
04:19:32,619 --> 04:19:35,556
advocates today. >> all right, thank you very

3372
04:19:35,556 --> 04:19:38,691
much, and miss stanley, one more question for you, and I want to

3373
04:19:38,691 --> 04:19:43,497
make sure I understand the world as tz toit is today.

3374
04:19:43,497 --> 04:19:46,967
you mentioned some of the challenges

3375
04:19:46,967 --> 04:19:50,837
challenges with navigating with a guide dog.

3376
04:19:50,837 --> 04:19:54,574
how do you communicate the need to have a vehicle that allows

3377
04:19:54,574 --> 04:20:01,115
you -- is that an option? You are rolling a dice to see

3378
04:20:01,115 --> 04:20:02,916
who shows up? Is there a flag on the account

3379
04:20:02,916 --> 04:20:06,987
so the driver knows? >> how long do you have?

3380
04:20:06,987 --> 04:20:08,722
there is many discussions and this issue.

3381
04:20:08,722 --> 04:20:12,325
the long and short of it, there has been mump debate in the

3382
04:20:12,325 --> 04:20:17,464
blind and low vision community, and I'm sure persons who euser

3383
04:20:17,464 --> 04:20:21,535
visit animals for all disabilities, whether you want

3384
04:20:21,535 --> 04:20:25,739
to disclose or not disclose. Turnly with the two ride share

3385
04:20:25,739 --> 04:20:32,339
companies, uber and lift, they have a policy where you can

3386
04:20:33,213 --> 04:20:36,813
identify. That is layers whether before

3387
04:20:39,820 --> 04:20:43,556
you order, or in your profile. They ping you have a service

3388
04:20:43,556 --> 04:20:45,892
animal and it starts the process.

3389
04:20:45,892 --> 04:20:50,163
this is totally optional, and there are a lot of opinions out

3390
04:20:50,163 --> 04:20:52,966
there. Some people don't want to

3391
04:20:52,966 --> 04:20:55,502
identify at all. Because the driver will say no

3392
04:20:55,502 --> 04:20:58,171
ahead of time. Some people like the idea ahead

3393
04:20:58,171 --> 04:21:02,175
of time. Because it's going to get the

3394
04:21:02,175 --> 04:21:05,645
elephant in the room, it's going to get it out there.

3395
04:21:05,645 --> 04:21:11,518
and some people like it when they are undoubtedly denied at

3396
04:21:11,518 --> 04:21:16,560
some point -- I lost count how many times I have been denied,

3397
04:21:16,560 --> 04:21:24,456
it's in the system and the ball can roll more quickly as far as

3398
04:21:25,265 --> 04:21:26,933
processing the denial. The jury is still out.

3399
04:21:26,933 --> 04:21:29,736
we had great relationships with uber and lyft.

3400
04:21:29,736 --> 04:21:33,606
they are counting the data. But all this is fairly new.

3401
04:21:33,606 --> 04:21:38,211
so whether it works or doesn't work, I can't definitively say

3402
04:21:38,211 --> 04:21:43,483
yes or no. So as a result, if you ask my

3403
04:21:43,483 --> 04:21:45,952
blind person, where they don't have to deal with somebody

3404
04:21:45,952 --> 04:21:49,490
saying you can't have your dog, every blind person who uses a

3405
04:21:49,490 --> 04:21:56,690
dog says yes, please, because it's such a burden that all of

3406
04:21:56,830 --> 04:21:59,632
us face on a daily basis. >> I will share.

3407
04:21:59,632 --> 04:22:05,104
so miss stanley and I worked together a bit at the american

3408
04:22:05,104 --> 04:22:08,175
council of the blind, work, travel, conferences, things on

3409
04:22:08,175 --> 04:22:11,440
those lines. We have literally at times been

3410
04:22:11,440 --> 04:22:18,244
in a situation where to avoid her being denied with her guide

3411
04:22:19,986 --> 04:22:25,926
dog, she could wait behind me. The ride share would pull up,

3412
04:22:25,926 --> 04:22:28,795
for example. I would greet the driver, get

3413
04:22:28,795 --> 04:22:32,132
the door open, and she could quickly join me at the vehicle

3414
04:22:32,132 --> 04:22:36,470
in opens that by sort of overwhelming them in the

3415
04:22:36,470 --> 04:22:38,805
vehicle, she would not be denied.

3416
04:22:38,805 --> 04:22:46,500
so it becomes, if you miss that ride and wait another 11 minutes

3417
04:22:46,279 --> 04:22:50,479
for meetings, appointments, whatever it might be.

3418
04:22:51,485 --> 04:22:55,555
it is a no-brainer for us that we prefer not to have our

3419
04:22:55,555 --> 04:23:00,627
members across the nation, not have those denials on a daily

3420
04:23:00,627 --> 04:23:02,763
basis. >> all right, that is incredibly

3421
04:23:02,763 --> 04:23:05,310
helpful. And thank you for sharing that.

3422
04:23:05,310 --> 04:23:09,369
all right, we move on to the next panel of public witnesses.

3423
04:23:09,369 --> 04:23:13,907
but we really appreciate your testimony today, and look

3424
04:23:13,907 --> 04:23:15,708
forward to following up as needed.

3425
04:23:15,708 --> 04:23:19,780
ly start to all our next panel. Public witnesses.

3426
04:23:19,780 --> 04:23:23,380
I have john pare, public witness.

3427
04:23:26,253 --> 04:23:31,530
sandra neuzil, public witness. Olivia norman, public witness.

3428
04:23:36,663 --> 04:23:42,630
I think joining us online. And shawn callaway, public

3429
04:23:43,337 --> 04:23:47,537
witness, also joining us online. All right.

3430
04:24:02,222 --> 04:24:07,622
mr. Pare, why don't we start whenever you're ready.

3431
04:24:07,695 --> 04:24:09,696
>> you called on me? >> yes.

3432
04:24:09,696 --> 04:24:12,298
>> all right, good afternoon. Thank you for having me.

3433
04:24:12,298 --> 04:24:17,980
my name is john pare, I'm the expect

3434
04:24:17,704 --> 04:24:20,400
executive director of policy for the national center of the

3435
04:24:20,400 --> 04:24:22,642
blind. In the spring of 2001, I lost my

3436
04:24:22,642 --> 04:24:27,113
job due to my blindness in part -- many reasons, but due to

3437
04:24:27,113 --> 04:24:33,113
lack of transportation. I did later get a job and

3438
04:24:35,121 --> 04:24:36,989
became -- with the national federation of the blind and

3439
04:24:36,989 --> 04:24:42,528
worked my way up to executive director where I am now.

3440
04:24:42,528 --> 04:24:49,680
last week, I was at our national convention in austin, texas.

3441
04:24:49,680 --> 04:24:55,208
and interesting, on july 4th, I was with a group of my people,

3442
04:24:55,208 --> 04:25:01,499
and one of them ordered a waymo. And in that case, you can

3443
04:25:01,499 --> 04:25:04,836
indicate that you hope to get autonomous vehicle.

3444
04:25:04,836 --> 04:25:08,373
we checked that box. We didn't get an autonomous

3445
04:25:08,373 --> 04:25:10,174
vehicle. Because there, you order it

3446
04:25:10,174 --> 04:25:13,111
through uber. So that is why you have to ends

3447
04:25:13,111 --> 04:25:17,782
kate the preference. But it was satisfied with a

3448
04:25:17,782 --> 04:25:20,510
waymo. Just to give you that detail.

3449
04:25:20,510 --> 04:25:25,550
and the three of us road. I road in the front seat.

3450
04:25:25,550 --> 04:25:31,129
I rode in the front passenger seat, and they rode in the back,

3451
04:25:31,129 --> 04:25:34,532
and we had a ride just like any old ride.

3452
04:25:34,532 --> 04:25:39,538
I felt very safe, very confident in both getting to the vehicle,

3453
04:25:39,538 --> 04:25:44,338
the ride and at the destination. Our hotel.

3454
04:25:46,479 --> 04:25:51,282
the -- we -- the national federation of the blind really

3455
04:25:51,282 --> 04:25:54,486
support autonomous vehicles. We're having excited about

3456
04:25:54,486 --> 04:25:58,490
autonomous vehicles. And we support our legislation.

3457
04:25:58,490 --> 04:26:02,560
there are two -- I want to comment on some of the things

3458
04:26:02,560 --> 04:26:04,762
you heard today to add a little more color.

3459
04:26:04,762 --> 04:26:11,350
one of the things on many -- all blind people that have a guide

3460
04:26:11,350 --> 04:26:14,839
dog, who have ever used ride share most likely have

3461
04:26:14,839 --> 04:26:16,307
experienced the ride share denial.

3462
04:26:16,307 --> 04:26:22,247
one thing to make sure is clear. It's absolutely illegal for a

3463
04:26:22,247 --> 04:26:25,984
driver to deny somebody with a guide dog.

3464
04:26:25,984 --> 04:26:31,384
it's in violation of the americans with disabilities act.

3465
04:26:31,991 --> 04:26:37,261
the ride share companies, uber and lyft, say it's in violation

3466
04:26:37,261 --> 04:26:41,265
of the law and their policy. There is no disagreement on

3467
04:26:41,265 --> 04:26:44,200
that. It's just the u.s. Department of

3468
04:26:44,200 --> 04:26:49,407
justice, department of civil rights that would say -- the

3469
04:26:49,407 --> 04:26:54,120
current -- under the current administration would say it is a

3470
04:26:54,120 --> 04:27:01,212
violation of the law, that they have sued uber over this issue.

3471
04:27:03,210 --> 04:27:05,230
ent and it's the drivers who are

3472
04:27:05,230 --> 04:27:09,223
violating the law and creating the discrimination.

3473
04:27:09,294 --> 04:27:13,565
this can lead people stranded and it would be so helpful to

3474
04:27:13,565 --> 04:27:16,701
have autonomous vehicles that didn't have the drivers.

3475
04:27:16,701 --> 04:27:22,101
because it's the drivers that are doing the discrimination.

3476
04:27:22,574 --> 04:27:27,445
approximately 2.5% of people in the district of columbia are

3477
04:27:27,445 --> 04:27:31,783
blind or low vision. Another -- a total of 25% of the

3478
04:27:31,783 --> 04:27:36,454
people in the district of columbia do not have a driver's

3479
04:27:36,454 --> 04:27:38,189
license. That is a lot of people that

3480
04:27:38,189 --> 04:27:42,600
don't have a driver's license, that have to do something other

3481
04:27:42,600 --> 04:27:46,197
than drive themselves to wherever they need to go.

3482
04:27:46,197 --> 04:27:49,868
so similar to blind people, all the other people are using other

3483
04:27:49,868 --> 04:27:54,720
types of transportation. It's been a lot of talk today

3484
04:27:54,720 --> 04:27:58,142
about employment. And I want to talk about the

3485
04:27:58,142 --> 04:28:02,942
impact that lack of transportation options have on

3486
04:28:03,414 --> 04:28:05,149
employment. I once experienced that.

3487
04:28:05,149 --> 04:28:11,149
it helped contribute to me losing my job one time.

3488
04:28:13,900 --> 04:28:15,360
many of people who are not employed in the district of

3489
04:28:15,360 --> 04:28:21,960
columbia probably -- do not have a sdrodriver's license, the lac

3490
04:28:21,966 --> 04:28:25,566
transportation options could impact their employment.

3491
04:28:26,237 --> 04:28:31,309
not always the case but would. There is mass transit in the

3492
04:28:31,309 --> 04:28:35,446
district of columbia. But having more options is a

3493
04:28:35,446 --> 04:28:38,249
good thing. The autonomous vehicles would

3494
04:28:38,249 --> 04:28:44,188
not be a panacea, but it will create another transportation

3495
04:28:44,188 --> 04:28:46,991
option. When I travel, I live in

3496
04:28:46,991 --> 04:28:49,794
baltimore. When I travel to washington,

3497
04:28:49,794 --> 04:28:54,265
d.c., which I do on a weekly basis, I come in a variety of

3498
04:28:54,265 --> 04:28:56,401
ways, probably like other people do.

3499
04:28:56,401 --> 04:29:00,605
it's not always the same. I match the best transportation

3500
04:29:00,605 --> 04:29:05,476
to the situation. And in some cases, if we get

3501
04:29:05,476 --> 04:29:09,747
avs, especially to get around d.c., that could be one of the

3502
04:29:09,747 --> 04:29:15,286
choices that I would try to evaluate that would help me get

3503
04:29:15,286 --> 04:29:19,757
around and could improve employment, which I urge you to

3504
04:29:19,757 --> 04:29:23,940
keep in mind. When gap, you asked in the

3505
04:29:23,940 --> 04:29:27,298
legislation, the previous panel, I agree, they can't quite -- the

3506
04:29:27,298 --> 04:29:31,836
performance of accessibility of the app and -- they didn't

3507
04:29:31,836 --> 04:29:36,360
specifically mention, there's a standard called accessibility

3508
04:29:40,845 --> 04:29:44,445
group. And wcad, and 2.2 level double

3509
04:29:47,452 --> 04:29:51,989
"a," which we can send to you after, that would be the

3510
04:29:51,989 --> 04:29:55,593
appropriate standard to require. That is the ones the companies

3511
04:29:55,593 --> 04:29:59,931
say they strive to meet. If they do strive to meet it,

3512
04:29:59,931 --> 04:30:03,333
why don't you put it in law? That would be a good thing.

3513
04:30:03,333 --> 04:30:05,936
we would appreciate that. And I don't think they could

3514
04:30:05,936 --> 04:30:08,405
disagree with that. That's what they strive to do,

3515
04:30:08,405 --> 04:30:13,678
and it's what the department of justice regulation that almost

3516
04:30:13,678 --> 04:30:18,216
went into efficient on april 20th of this year.

3517
04:30:18,216 --> 04:30:23,287
it was postponed by a year. But it's going to require the

3518
04:30:23,287 --> 04:30:29,627
district -- well, this -- it requires all state and local

3519
04:30:29,627 --> 04:30:35,627
government entities to meet 2.1 level double "a," and we urge

3520
04:30:41,439 --> 04:30:45,176
you to do that. Thank you for the opportunity to

3521
04:30:45,176 --> 04:30:46,244
speak today. >> thank you.

3522
04:30:46,244 --> 04:30:50,181
we turn next to sandra neuzil who is joining us online.

3523
04:30:50,181 --> 04:30:51,782
>> good afternoon. You can hear me?

3524
04:30:51,782 --> 04:30:54,782
>> yes, we can. Good afternoon.

3525
04:30:55,252 --> 04:30:59,790
>> council member allen -- chair allen and other members, thank

3526
04:30:59,790 --> 04:31:03,194
you for the opportunity to speak today.

3527
04:31:03,194 --> 04:31:08,816
my name is sandy neuzil. I am speaking on behalf of all

3528
04:31:08,816 --> 04:31:14,816
people who have disabilities. I'm a resident of fairfax county

3529
04:31:18,158 --> 04:31:21,762
for 42 years and the past ten years, I have been volunteering

3530
04:31:21,762 --> 04:31:24,310
and working part time throughout the dmv.

3531
04:31:24,310 --> 04:31:28,235
I'm unfamiliar with the streets and layout of most of d.c. And

3532
04:31:28,235 --> 04:31:31,772
frequently find myself going to new locations where I have never

3533
04:31:31,772 --> 04:31:34,776
been before. I have been legally blind my

3534
04:31:34,776 --> 04:31:37,979
whole lifer, and thus never had the opportunity to drive a car.

3535
04:31:37,979 --> 04:31:43,979
I rely on public transportation, friends and family and metro

3536
04:31:44,510 --> 04:31:50,190
access to go where I need to go. However, each of those modes of

3537
04:31:50,190 --> 04:31:54,128
transportation require a significant amount of time to

3538
04:31:54,128 --> 04:31:59,199
plan, strategize, coordinate the trip and wait for rides or ride

3539
04:31:59,199 --> 04:32:06,999
to take me to my destination. And on demand ride in an ant

3540
04:32:10,944 --> 04:32:14,815
autonomous vehicle would help. Followed by walking to the

3541
04:32:14,815 --> 04:32:17,840
destination. Allowing time to catch a bus or

3542
04:32:17,840 --> 04:32:22,156
metro, plus more time if I must transfer and wait for another

3543
04:32:22,156 --> 04:32:27,161
bus or metro. It takes longer than hopping in

3544
04:32:27,161 --> 04:32:32,320
a car and driving somewhere, which is never an option for me.

3545
04:32:32,320 --> 04:32:35,302
public transportation may get me close to my destination.

3546
04:32:35,302 --> 04:32:38,839
with my blindness, in a new and unfamiliar area, that last walk

3547
04:32:38,839 --> 04:32:44,445
from the nearest public transportation stop to the -- to

3548
04:32:44,445 --> 04:32:49,490
the exact address I need to go to is often challenging and

3549
04:32:49,490 --> 04:32:54,449
stressful. A ride from a froiend can take p

3550
04:32:54,521 --> 04:32:58,125
twice as much as their time as mine.

3551
04:32:58,125 --> 04:33:00,861
they need to pick me up, drop me up and drive home.

3552
04:33:00,861 --> 04:33:05,466
that does not include the back and forth time spent asking a

3553
04:33:05,466 --> 04:33:10,271
friend for a ride and juggling their schedules and mine to

3554
04:33:10,271 --> 04:33:13,271
accommodate where I'm going when.

3555
04:33:14,275 --> 04:33:19,747
friends may be willing to do this but they don't always have

3556
04:33:19,747 --> 04:33:22,215
the time. Metro access is a lifeline.

3557
04:33:22,215 --> 04:33:26,754
however, it requires planning ahead by more than a day.

3558
04:33:26,754 --> 04:33:30,558
and it gets me from my door to my destination in a time equal

3559
04:33:30,558 --> 04:33:33,270
to that of public transportation.

3560
04:33:33,270 --> 04:33:38,165
there is a lot of anxiety and time involved in the process of

3561
04:33:38,165 --> 04:33:43,504
booking the ride, verifying the ride was booked correctly,

3562
04:33:43,504 --> 04:33:47,174
wondering if I will pick me up when promised and waiting for

3563
04:33:47,174 --> 04:33:53,774
the ride to ariverive. If I could hop in an autonomous

3564
04:33:56,317 --> 04:34:01,522
vehicle wherever I want to go, in a metro station from fairfax

3565
04:34:01,522 --> 04:34:05,590
county and go where I want to go for work or pleasure or

3566
04:34:05,590 --> 04:34:09,620
whatever, on my own without hours or days planning and

3567
04:34:09,620 --> 04:34:12,667
coordinating, I would save a tremendous amount of time and

3568
04:34:12,667 --> 04:34:16,737
significantly reduce frustration and stress for me.

3569
04:34:16,737 --> 04:34:20,674
I am running out of time, so I can say thank you very much for

3570
04:34:20,674 --> 04:34:24,678
the opportunity, and happy to await and answer questions.

3571
04:34:24,678 --> 04:34:26,814
thank you. >> thank you very much.

3572
04:34:26,814 --> 04:34:34,140
next, let me turn to olivia f norman, also yoinjoining us onl

3573
04:34:36,223 --> 04:34:38,959
>> good afternoon. You can hear me?

3574
04:34:38,959 --> 04:34:41,762
>> yes, good afternoon. >> it's wonderful to see you

3575
04:34:41,762 --> 04:34:45,900
again. My name is olivia norman, and I

3576
04:34:45,900 --> 04:34:49,770
am represents myself today. I'm a d.c. Resident of 20 years.

3577
04:34:49,770 --> 04:34:55,109
I am also totally blind. I have been since birth, and I

3578
04:34:55,109 --> 04:35:00,648
am a guide dog user. No one with a disability is a

3579
04:35:00,648 --> 04:35:02,450
monolith, as you pointed out this morning.

3580
04:35:02,450 --> 04:35:08,589
in addition to my blindness, I'm also a cancer survivor and I

3581
04:35:08,589 --> 04:35:15,620
have anxiety and chronic I illnesses, and I simply did not

3582
04:35:15,620 --> 04:35:18,198
have the energy to mess around and take metro and do that kind

3583
04:35:18,198 --> 04:35:24,471
of planning on transportation. So as a result, I'm less -- it's

3584
04:35:24,471 --> 04:35:27,675
a straight shot for me downtown or somewhere that I know well.

3585
04:35:27,675 --> 04:35:33,750
I have to rely on wide shares or friends.

3586
04:35:33,280 --> 04:35:38,685
most notably, a friend's tesla, and I have experienced the

3587
04:35:38,685 --> 04:35:41,688
self-driving of a friend that way, and I would love to have

3588
04:35:41,688 --> 04:35:47,880
that kind of freedom. I get around 50% refusal rate

3589
04:35:48,940 --> 04:35:52,320
from uber and lyft, and I will say this tapped in the days of

3590
04:35:52,320 --> 04:35:56,637
taxi days in d.c. As well. Interestingly, similar story to

3591
04:35:56,637 --> 04:35:59,440
what scott torn hill just told you.

3592
04:35:59,440 --> 04:36:04,240
in 2012, I was downtown, and it was raining.

3593
04:36:04,845 --> 04:36:08,782
and this person had stopped because I had -- kept getting

3594
04:36:08,782 --> 04:36:13,387
passed over by taxis. I was hailing on the street b

3595
04:36:13,387 --> 04:36:15,722
because at that time, that is how you got the cabs.

3596
04:36:15,722 --> 04:36:20,661
and I don't know this, and this man stopped and said, hey, two

3597
04:36:20,661 --> 04:36:24,731
cabs just have driven past you. Hide behind this tree, and I

3598
04:36:24,731 --> 04:36:33,730
will get you a cab and put you in it to get you home.

3599
04:36:33,730 --> 04:36:33,607
and so, it worked.

3600
04:36:33,607 --> 04:36:39,700
the guy didn't want to take my guide dog.

3601
04:36:40,413 --> 04:36:45,419
and I went to pay, and he said, don't worry.

3602
04:36:45,419 --> 04:36:49,890
the man in front of you took care of it.

3603
04:36:49,890 --> 04:36:52,826
and in that moment, I saw the best and worst of humanity.

3604
04:36:52,826 --> 04:36:57,630
they cannot deny any guide dog and it amount of stress this

3605
04:36:57,630 --> 04:36:59,632
causes me. I just can't describe it.

3606
04:36:59,632 --> 04:37:02,770
it has a huge impact on my mental health.

3607
04:37:02,770 --> 04:37:07,641
I get a lot of my treatments from my various illnesses.

3608
04:37:07,641 --> 04:37:12,312
the hospital in ward 3. It's not accessible via metro,

3609
04:37:12,312 --> 04:37:17,651
even if I could do it that way. So I mostly have to rely on my

3610
04:37:17,651 --> 04:37:24,406
friends or uber and hope they don't deny me when I go get my

3611
04:37:24,406 --> 04:37:26,942
treatment. And it's -- this is just -- I

3612
04:37:26,942 --> 04:37:30,746
really hope that we can get to where we can have autonomous

3613
04:37:30,746 --> 04:37:35,416
vehicles on a street that will give me and others more

3614
04:37:35,416 --> 04:37:40,355
flexibility and more choices as to how we get around the

3615
04:37:40,355 --> 04:37:42,357
district. And I'm running out of time, so

3616
04:37:42,357 --> 04:37:46,161
I will be happy to answer any of your questions.

3617
04:37:46,161 --> 04:37:48,897
and I thank you for your time. >> absolutely.

3618
04:37:48,897 --> 04:37:53,235
all right, next, let me turn to shawn callaway.

3619
04:37:53,235 --> 04:37:58,635
>> good afternoon, councilman allen and the rest of the

3620
04:37:59,374 --> 04:38:02,911
committee. My name is shawn callaway.

3621
04:38:02,911 --> 04:38:09,511
I serve as president of the national council of the blind.

3622
04:38:10,251 --> 04:38:16,657
I am a d.c. Resident, and I'm a proud washington wizards season

3623
04:38:16,657 --> 04:38:20,928
ticket holder and attend national games as well, and I'm

3624
04:38:20,928 --> 04:38:25,670
the parent of a 11-year-old. And I'm married as well.

3625
04:38:25,670 --> 04:38:29,867
so I am responsible of taking my douth

3626
04:38:30,672 --> 04:38:33,875
daughter too and from school. And you heard the world

3627
04:38:33,875 --> 04:38:36,770
independence, and options here is a key word.

3628
04:38:36,770 --> 04:38:43,685
I can't tell you how many times, chairman allen, where I will try

3629
04:38:43,685 --> 04:38:49,291
to obtain an uber during rush hour, wait 5 to 6 minutes to

3630
04:38:49,291 --> 04:38:53,828
finds out if I'm getting a ride, and then find out that there are

3631
04:38:53,828 --> 04:39:00,428
no ubers available at that time. This has apphappened several ti

3632
04:39:00,435 --> 04:39:03,771
this year. And what makes it worse is that

3633
04:39:03,771 --> 04:39:09,711
you have an option once they tell you they have no vehicles

3634
04:39:09,711 --> 04:39:15,183
available, you have an option to get a priority vehicle, which

3635
04:39:15,183 --> 04:39:19,321
costs $5 or $6 more, than the ride itself.

3636
04:39:19,321 --> 04:39:24,726
also, when it comes to options, you heard the denials of blind

3637
04:39:24,726 --> 04:39:29,864
individuals who have guide dogs. But I have been denied as a

3638
04:39:29,864 --> 04:39:34,136
blind person, multiple times. A driver will see me and he will

3639
04:39:34,136 --> 04:39:41,276
ask me, are you blind for real? And he will drive off.

3640
04:39:41,276 --> 04:39:44,612
also, I want to ride the vehicles without judgment.

3641
04:39:44,612 --> 04:39:50,120
often times, I have been questioned about my blindness.

3642
04:39:50,285 --> 04:39:53,755
this is no brag point. A lot of blind people love to

3643
04:39:53,755 --> 04:39:56,240
dress nice and look nice. And we are independent.

3644
04:39:56,240 --> 04:40:00,280
but we have been questioned by drivers about our blindness and

3645
04:40:00,280 --> 04:40:06,902
if we are blind for real. And I don't think we should be

3646
04:40:06,902 --> 04:40:09,303
subject to actions as to what we do and how we do things.

3647
04:40:09,303 --> 04:40:13,442
we just want to ride to get from point "a" to point "b," and the

3648
04:40:13,442 --> 04:40:18,513
last thing I want to mention is the option of -- something other

3649
04:40:18,513 --> 04:40:22,250
than the access. Of course you have to plan as

3650
04:40:22,250 --> 04:40:27,650
one panelist said in regards to utilizing metro access.

3651
04:40:30,326 --> 04:40:36,798
some days, I have to use transportation the day of, and I

3652
04:40:36,798 --> 04:40:40,936
want to use an av. Because there might be issues

3653
04:40:40,936 --> 04:40:44,206
with uber of lyft I don't want to deal with.

3654
04:40:44,206 --> 04:40:48,743
and I'm excited about avs coming to washington, d.c., and I'm

3655
04:40:48,743 --> 04:40:51,130
looking forward to the bill passing.

3656
04:40:51,130 --> 04:40:53,681
thank you. >> all right, thank you very

3657
04:40:53,681 --> 04:40:54,949
much. I appreciate that very much.

3658
04:40:54,949 --> 04:40:59,754
all right a couple questions. Miss norman, I might start with

3659
04:40:59,754 --> 04:41:01,689
you. I was really struck in your

3660
04:41:01,689 --> 04:41:08,289
testimony as you talked about just the sheer amount of time,

3661
04:41:10,365 --> 04:41:16,371
energy, mental energy it sounds like to be able to plan for a

3662
04:41:16,371 --> 04:41:20,709
basic trip you have to take. And it leaves you essentially to

3663
04:41:20,709 --> 04:41:24,845
just say, I will just stay home. That's not the choice we

3664
04:41:24,845 --> 04:41:28,583
obviously want people to feel they must make or have to make

3665
04:41:28,583 --> 04:41:34,856
as we think about the tradeoffs. Is there -- the experience

3666
04:41:34,856 --> 04:41:40,256
you've shared, does that cut across both taxi, for-hire

3667
04:41:44,332 --> 04:41:48,937
vehicles, metro? In other words, is it all of

3668
04:41:48,937 --> 04:41:51,339
your transportation? And do I hear you correct that

3669
04:41:51,339 --> 04:41:56,411
it's the autonomous vehicle is the one that really opens up

3670
04:41:56,411 --> 04:41:59,280
your options in independence? >> yes, you did.

3671
04:41:59,280 --> 04:42:03,480
and it does cut across all modalities.

3672
04:42:04,619 --> 04:42:09,491
metro not quite as much. And metro works going downtown,

3673
04:42:09,491 --> 04:42:12,827
if I don't have to expend a lot of energy on transportation.

3674
04:42:12,827 --> 04:42:15,897
but if I have to work somewhere and try -- and some days, I

3675
04:42:15,897 --> 04:42:18,900
don't have the energy. And it's like, I will just stay

3676
04:42:18,900 --> 04:42:21,836
home. Because when I get denied by the

3677
04:42:21,836 --> 04:42:27,410
ride shares, you know, or the taxis or whoever drivers,

3678
04:42:27,410 --> 04:42:31,841
that -- that is an another energy drain.

3679
04:42:33,982 --> 04:42:38,853
so unless I can get a private driver, which I actually went to

3680
04:42:38,853 --> 04:42:42,256
a party in rockville that miss stanley held.

3681
04:42:42,256 --> 04:42:45,660
and I was able to get a private driver.

3682
04:42:45,660 --> 04:42:47,663
but it cost money. It's time or money.

3683
04:42:47,663 --> 04:42:50,799
you know, I had a great time. But if I had not been able to

3684
04:42:50,799 --> 04:42:55,300
get a driver for that event, I would have just stayed home.

3685
04:42:55,300 --> 04:42:58,206
yeah, absolutely. And I think that that's -- the

3686
04:42:58,206 --> 04:43:02,210
autonomous vehicles are going to help me a lot.

3687
04:43:02,210 --> 04:43:06,140
you zowon't have to worry about being denied and I can intend my

3688
04:43:06,140 --> 04:43:10,840
limited energy on things that I enjoy doing instead of

3689
04:43:10,840 --> 04:43:12,554
transportation. I think that's key.

3690
04:43:12,554 --> 04:43:14,554
>> okay. Thank you.

3691
04:43:14,555 --> 04:43:19,560
mr. Callaway, and then mr. Pare, I will ask you the same thing.

3692
04:43:19,560 --> 04:43:22,960
you have been listening to a lot of conversation in the course of

3693
04:43:22,960 --> 04:43:24,565
the day. One of the things I'm interested

3694
04:43:24,565 --> 04:43:28,112
in thinking through how we balance, is the precision we

3695
04:43:28,112 --> 04:43:33,512
need to give autonomous vehicle operators of not breaking

3696
04:43:34,185 --> 04:43:39,585
traffic safety laws, meaning speed limit, red light, shot

3697
04:43:40,858 --> 04:43:44,662
signs, et cetera. And then the reasonableness of

3698
04:43:44,662 --> 04:43:48,262
where dropoff and pickup locations are.

3699
04:43:49,800 --> 04:43:53,738
often times, if we talk about commercial street of residential

3700
04:43:53,738 --> 04:43:59,138
street, it's a reasonable expectation that that vehicle is

3701
04:43:59,544 --> 04:44:02,544
going to double park momentarily.

3702
04:44:02,747 --> 04:44:05,616
te technically that is against the

3703
04:44:05,616 --> 04:44:09,220
traffic safely law. But I think that most people

3704
04:44:09,220 --> 04:44:11,880
would reasonably assume it will take place.

3705
04:44:11,880 --> 04:44:16,488
do you have thoughts how to strike that balance?

3706
04:44:16,695 --> 04:44:20,230
especially when we think about blind and vision impaired, where

3707
04:44:20,230 --> 04:44:23,368
is the place for a pickup and dropoff?

3708
04:44:23,368 --> 04:44:27,370
or is it like any other and it's a balance we are speaking?

3709
04:44:27,370 --> 04:44:30,442
>> I will go with the latter on that one.

3710
04:44:30,442 --> 04:44:35,579
as you well know, I mean, it's -- the streets are pretty

3711
04:44:35,579 --> 04:44:40,651
different in d.c. But for us, and I hope I'm

3712
04:44:40,651 --> 04:44:42,520
answering your question correctly.

3713
04:44:42,520 --> 04:44:49,120
I believe that just trying to locate the vehicle if it's

3714
04:44:49,127 --> 04:44:52,930
double parked or if it's on the corner, one thing I do know

3715
04:44:52,930 --> 04:44:57,134
about the vehicles, autonomous vehicles, it does have a

3716
04:44:57,134 --> 04:45:01,205
mechanism where you can locate that vehicle.

3717
04:45:01,205 --> 04:45:09,480
so if it's across the street or if it's down the street, you are

3718
04:45:09,480 --> 04:45:13,830
able to navigate to locate that vehicle.

3719
04:45:13,830 --> 04:45:17,880
>> mr. Pare, anything you want to add to that?

3720
04:45:17,880 --> 04:45:21,288
>> yeah. Just to give you some context.

3721
04:45:21,559 --> 04:45:24,561
with typical ride share, it's not unusual for a blind person

3722
04:45:24,561 --> 04:45:31,761
to call the driver and try to negotiate to help find the

3723
04:45:31,770 --> 04:45:34,973
vehicle. So when with waymo and tesla,

3724
04:45:34,973 --> 04:45:39,443
and it was also cruz, we -- the national federation of the blind

3725
04:45:39,443 --> 04:45:43,781
said there is no driver to talk to, it would be very helpful.

3726
04:45:43,781 --> 04:45:49,530
because this is what we do. We say to the driver, can you

3727
04:45:49,530 --> 04:45:52,856
toot your horn softly and we can say, toot it again and toot it

3728
04:45:52,856 --> 04:45:56,326
again and we can move to the vehicle and find the vehicle

3729
04:45:56,326 --> 04:45:59,663
that way. So the ride -- the av companies

3730
04:45:59,663 --> 04:46:04,602
have instituted in the app so that you can toot the horn from

3731
04:46:04,602 --> 04:46:08,539
the app. So that really makes it easier

3732
04:46:08,539 --> 04:46:11,876
to find the vehicle. So finding the vehicle through

3733
04:46:11,876 --> 04:46:17,876
the auditory meth thougod where touch the thing works pretty

3734
04:46:18,216 --> 04:46:21,816
well. The dropoff can be trickier.

3735
04:46:25,956 --> 04:46:31,562
but it isn't necessarily harder than when we have maybe a ride

3736
04:46:31,562 --> 04:46:37,368
share where there's a language barrier or just a person who is

3737
04:46:37,368 --> 04:46:41,705
not necessarily very helpful. I took two ride shares to get

3738
04:46:41,705 --> 04:46:43,774
here. I will take two ride shares to

3739
04:46:43,774 --> 04:46:47,974
get home, to go to union station.

3740
04:46:49,380 --> 04:46:53,650
not sure -- they let you off all kinds of places and blind people

3741
04:46:53,650 --> 04:47:00,250
use travel skills to help find where they need to go.

3742
04:47:00,257 --> 04:47:02,660
so afrwe don't have to have specialized places.

3743
04:47:02,660 --> 04:47:08,599
but if there are specialized pickup and dropoff places, they

3744
04:47:08,599 --> 04:47:10,268
don't have to happen but they are helpful.

3745
04:47:10,268 --> 04:47:14,468
>> all right. And mr. Neuzil, anything you

3746
04:47:14,472 --> 04:47:19,543
want to add to that? >> I'm familiar with the mac

3747
04:47:19,543 --> 04:47:26,743
trying to coax the d.c. Into assessing where they could have

3748
04:47:27,617 --> 04:47:31,221
pickup/dropoff zones on the core blocks in d.c. Where it's very

3749
04:47:31,221 --> 04:47:33,424
crowded. And I think that would be

3750
04:47:33,424 --> 04:47:37,828
helpful to avoid the double parking and to avoid pulling

3751
04:47:37,828 --> 04:47:42,767
into a dangerous crosswalk at corner of a block.

3752
04:47:42,767 --> 04:47:49,367
but yes, I have a lot of trouble finding my vehicles.

3753
04:47:49,372 --> 04:47:51,108
negotiating with the driver, where you are?

3754
04:47:51,108 --> 04:47:56,580
and they tell me, I'm in the red car, and I don't see a red car.

3755
04:47:56,580 --> 04:48:00,180
I don't see. So it's tricky.

3756
04:48:01,719 --> 04:48:05,856
it's perpetually tricky. >> can I add to that as well?

3757
04:48:05,856 --> 04:48:09,456
>> sure, miss norman. >> yeah, thank you.

3758
04:48:13,396 --> 04:48:17,601
I worry an it w little bit. I live on connecticut avenue,

3759
04:48:17,601 --> 04:48:20,604
and it's a commercial strip. And they have to double park,

3760
04:48:20,604 --> 04:48:26,878
and also, there might be multiple, you know -- there are

3761
04:48:26,878 --> 04:48:31,678
multiple waymos or teslas at the same time.

3762
04:48:32,215 --> 04:48:37,421
I would worry a bit about being left off in a travel lane of

3763
04:48:37,421 --> 04:48:39,690
connecticut avenue. So I think we would have to

3764
04:48:39,690 --> 04:48:45,900
adjust some of that for commercial or busy business

3765
04:48:46,564 --> 04:48:48,498
areas. I wonder how that would work.

3766
04:48:48,498 --> 04:48:50,167
>> okay. Got it.

3767
04:48:50,167 --> 04:48:52,370
all right, well, I appreciate it.

3768
04:48:52,370 --> 04:48:56,506
I appreciate that panel for all your testimony recommendations.

3769
04:48:56,506 --> 04:49:02,245
thank you very much, and we will follow up with each of you as

3770
04:49:02,245 --> 04:49:03,248
needed. Thank you.

3771
04:49:03,248 --> 04:49:06,450
>> thank you. >> all right, let me call the

3772
04:49:06,450 --> 04:49:08,452
next panel of witnesses. I have emma cleveland, the state

3773
04:49:08,452 --> 04:49:13,252
and local political coordinator with amalgamated transit union,

3774
04:49:14,725 --> 04:49:19,525
joining us online. Brian wivell, the director of

3775
04:49:22,265 --> 04:49:26,465
special projects amalgamated transit union local 689, and

3776
04:49:30,207 --> 04:49:35,607
crystal middleton, member seiu local 32bj, and jaime contreras.

3777
04:49:42,223 --> 04:49:45,693
>> emma will not be yojoining u today.

3778
04:49:45,693 --> 04:49:49,364
>> I thought she was online? >> oh, is she?

3779
04:49:49,364 --> 04:49:53,564
>> all right, and then contreras, and crystal

3780
04:49:56,637 --> 04:49:57,572
middleton? >> yeah --

3781
04:49:57,572 --> 04:50:02,243
>> you're right. Helen, we had you lowered down.

3782
04:50:02,243 --> 04:50:04,440
okay. We got you not.

3783
04:50:04,440 --> 04:50:06,181
okay, now, brian. >> sounds good.

3784
04:50:06,181 --> 04:50:11,581
thank you very much. My name is brian wivell.

3785
04:50:11,719 --> 04:50:16,519
by way of introductions, we represent about 16,000 transit

3786
04:50:18,325 --> 04:50:21,729
workers and retirees throughout the dmv area.

3787
04:50:21,729 --> 04:50:24,399
you can see the full testimony that we submitted written.

3788
04:50:24,399 --> 04:50:28,536
but just to cover a bunch of points raised in the several

3789
04:50:28,536 --> 04:50:31,339
hours of the hearing and the several hours that additional

3790
04:50:31,339 --> 04:50:35,210
points will be raised, I will go and try to summarize some of

3791
04:50:35,210 --> 04:50:37,545
those. I want to say, part of the

3792
04:50:37,545 --> 04:50:42,217
reason why this whole debate is going on, a lot of us are

3793
04:50:42,217 --> 04:50:46,621
recognizing this is not simply about the future of robo taxis.

3794
04:50:46,621 --> 04:50:53,821
this is not about waymo and lyft and tmcs in the region.

3795
04:50:54,295 --> 04:51:00,168
this is setting a precedent for the large scale operations.

3796
04:51:00,168 --> 04:51:04,639
and the precedent we hope is that that takes care of workers

3797
04:51:04,639 --> 04:51:09,977
and ensures that I have a safe, just transition to other

3798
04:51:09,977 --> 04:51:10,912
employment or that the employment is protected.

3799
04:51:10,912 --> 04:51:13,982
and as we look at this bill, there are definitely steps,

3800
04:51:13,982 --> 04:51:17,786
clear intention taking to pay attention to the issue.

3801
04:51:17,786 --> 04:51:19,187
but we think there needs to be more.

3802
04:51:19,187 --> 04:51:24,925
so I think it was funny that it was brought up earlier, a ref

3803
04:51:24,925 --> 04:51:29,725
fence to automated checkout and tellers and cashiers.

3804
04:51:31,799 --> 04:51:37,199
if anyone thinks that the consumer experience is improved

3805
04:51:37,471 --> 04:51:41,142
by a removal of a large number of clerks from stores, I think

3806
04:51:41,142 --> 04:51:43,811
they lying to you. We have to recognize they are --

3807
04:51:43,811 --> 04:51:47,482
by their own admission of the uber and lyft, there are

3808
04:51:47,482 --> 04:51:50,885
thousands of workers in region that work more than 20 hours a

3809
04:51:50,885 --> 04:51:54,880
week doing ride share work. That is thousands of people that

3810
04:51:54,880 --> 04:51:58,158
may lose their employment in this industry if we do not

3811
04:51:58,158 --> 04:52:01,762
correctly set up the infrastructure and the

3812
04:52:01,762 --> 04:52:04,162
incentives for this. Additionalty.

3813
04:52:06,567 --> 04:52:13,441
speaking as a public transit worker union, we saw it as a

3814
04:52:13,441 --> 04:52:16,710
public transit in one vehicle. If you look at the way that land

3815
04:52:16,710 --> 04:52:19,913
use has been shaped and development has been shaped by

3816
04:52:19,913 --> 04:52:25,913
the transportation technology. We had an era where people had

3817
04:52:28,790 --> 04:52:31,925
to live near where they worked because they walked there.

3818
04:52:31,925 --> 04:52:34,996
and then you had horses and streetcars and buses.

3819
04:52:34,996 --> 04:52:37,932
and with each one of the changes, it changed the way that

3820
04:52:37,932 --> 04:52:40,935
people lived around where they were able to work.

3821
04:52:40,935 --> 04:52:45,600
and as we consider allowing a technology that will allow

3822
04:52:45,600 --> 04:52:49,944
someone to do a 30 to 45-minute drive without having to talk to

3823
04:52:49,944 --> 04:52:54,282
a single human being and they can work the entire time, we are

3824
04:52:54,282 --> 04:53:02,682
going to work sprawl on a level we have never seen before, and I

3825
04:53:12,766 --> 04:53:14,360
think it's abonti-thetical to t goals.

3826
04:53:14,360 --> 04:53:18,239
and most of the issues found have been because of the under

3827
04:53:18,239 --> 04:53:21,239
regulation of transporatitation network companies.

3828
04:53:30,652 --> 04:53:31,453
and we actually share the concerns.

3829
04:53:31,453 --> 04:53:32,853
that is because they are provided to the absolute minimum

3830
04:53:32,853 --> 04:53:35,457
legal level necessary to provide those services.

3831
04:53:35,457 --> 04:53:40,995
and if you want to get the high qualify transit that doesn't

3832
04:53:40,995 --> 04:53:44,650
require calling in 24 hours in advance, if you want the transit

3833
04:53:44,650 --> 04:53:49,270
that doesn't require staying in a three-quarter mile catch zone,

3834
04:53:49,270 --> 04:53:51,605
it requires spending to make that possible.

3835
04:53:51,605 --> 04:53:58,205
and we have extreme concerns about d.c.'s road peculiarity.

3836
04:53:59,130 --> 04:54:04,752
it's said that autonomous vehicles, they might be able to

3837
04:54:04,752 --> 04:54:10,152
detect a pedestrian, but can they detect an elephant.

3838
04:54:11,159 --> 04:54:16,970
if they see an object they cannot trained to see, there are

3839
04:54:16,970 --> 04:54:19,697
weird protest activities that involve marionettes.

3840
04:54:37,718 --> 04:54:41,923
and they do 340,000 on a metro bus on a day.

3841
04:54:41,923 --> 04:54:45,660
we are talking and scales of magnitude where this is not

3842
04:54:45,660 --> 04:54:48,396
truly the fully tested system they claim.

3843
04:54:48,396 --> 04:54:52,266
now, additionally, I want to end on good job creation.

3844
04:54:52,266 --> 04:54:55,402
good job creation is the responsibility of the council,

3845
04:54:55,402 --> 04:55:00,942
adds I'm sure you know. If I want these to be good jobs,

3846
04:55:00,942 --> 04:55:05,680
the council has to mandate they are created as good jobs.

3847
04:55:05,680 --> 04:55:10,351
labor peace requirements and retraining in joint labor

3848
04:55:10,351 --> 04:55:14,221
management apprenticeship. Not just saying we have waymo

3849
04:55:14,221 --> 04:55:16,223
university. We need the retraining programs

3850
04:55:16,223 --> 04:55:20,423
to go through joint labor management programs.

3851
04:55:22,430 --> 04:55:23,898
int ultimately, this is going to

3852
04:55:23,898 --> 04:55:27,102
did on a level we have not seen yet.

3853
04:55:27,102 --> 04:55:30,304
thank you. >> thank you very much.

3854
04:55:30,304 --> 04:55:37,979
and then, for seiu, did you have an order you want to go in?

3855
04:55:37,979 --> 04:55:43,979
okay, I have crystal middleton, and helen marren, and mr.

3856
04:55:45,653 --> 04:55:47,653
contreras? >> good afternoon.

3857
04:55:50,126 --> 04:55:56,726
my name is jaime contreras. I oversee the dmv and represent

3858
04:56:00,200 --> 04:56:02,472
22,000 airplane workers, commercial office workers and

3859
04:56:02,472 --> 04:56:07,677
thank you for the opportunity to testify on this important bill.

3860
04:56:07,677 --> 04:56:12,281
this autonomous bill cannot pass as it lacks the kinds of guide

3861
04:56:12,281 --> 04:56:16,820
rails necessary so that the new technology would actually

3862
04:56:16,820 --> 04:56:20,423
benefit the residents of washington, d.c. And workers

3863
04:56:20,423 --> 04:56:24,827
instead of hurting them. Instead, the legislation will

3864
04:56:24,827 --> 04:56:28,898
send, as you heard from other testimony, it will send money

3865
04:56:28,898 --> 04:56:35,372
that should go in the pockets of d.c. Residents out of our

3866
04:56:35,372 --> 04:56:38,972
communities into silicon valley meta corporations.

3867
04:56:39,709 --> 04:56:44,247
we believe that it's -- it lacks protections for working people

3868
04:56:44,247 --> 04:56:51,387
and it reminds us as a union of another bill that destroyed

3869
04:56:51,387 --> 04:56:56,787
unimaginable number of jobs in our country, con nafta.

3870
04:56:59,620 --> 04:57:03,660
if the passes legislation, your legacy will be introduced in

3871
04:57:03,660 --> 04:57:08,138
that massive threat that jobs in the city, and our economy.

3872
04:57:08,138 --> 04:57:13,760
no city on the east coast, not baltimore, not philadelphia, not

3873
04:57:13,760 --> 04:57:18,281
new york, not boston, no city has done this, and you must not

3874
04:57:18,281 --> 04:57:21,885
be the first one on the east coast to do such a thing.

3875
04:57:21,885 --> 04:57:25,221
avs threatten to destroy the jobs of thousands of workers

3876
04:57:25,221 --> 04:57:30,293
across the district. Not only ride share drivers but

3877
04:57:30,293 --> 04:57:35,498
taxi drivers and truck drivers and public transit workers, as

3878
04:57:35,498 --> 04:57:37,234
you heard in the previous testimony.

3879
04:57:37,234 --> 04:57:41,437
this is what we are seeing in other cities.

3880
04:57:41,437 --> 04:57:48,637
in san francisco, waymo had 30% of all the ride share market in

3881
04:57:49,245 --> 04:57:52,845
20 months. And in most cities where

3882
04:57:53,449 --> 04:57:54,517
autonomous vehicles are introduced, driver way is

3883
04:57:54,517 --> 04:57:59,917
already declining. Now, this wages not only go to

3884
04:58:00,456 --> 04:58:05,327
drivers but they stay in the communities, paying rent, and

3885
04:58:05,327 --> 04:58:10,127
purchasing in local businesses, investing in families and

3886
04:58:10,265 --> 04:58:14,269
funding public services. Many are immigrants and

3887
04:58:14,269 --> 04:58:19,669
communities of color. And the economy has left behind.

3888
04:58:20,275 --> 04:58:25,481
supplementing jobs that don't pay enough or juggling care

3889
04:58:25,481 --> 04:58:28,170
giving and require flexible schedules.

3890
04:58:28,170 --> 04:58:32,888
these are people who will be severely harmed if we pull their

3891
04:58:32,888 --> 04:58:37,930
jobs from under them to benefit high-tech organizations.

3892
04:58:37,930 --> 04:58:41,893
let me be clear, we are not opposited

3893
04:58:42,899 --> 04:58:44,567
opposited to innovation in the union.

3894
04:58:44,567 --> 04:58:50,440
but it has to strengthen public public services and it has to

3895
04:58:50,440 --> 04:58:55,240
protect people. But with any innovation, we must

3896
04:58:57,847 --> 04:59:00,490
also ask who sthanands to benef and who stands to lose when we

3897
04:59:00,490 --> 04:59:04,520
introduce this type of legislation in the community?

3898
04:59:04,520 --> 04:59:05,454
who benefits? Who loses?

3899
04:59:05,454 --> 04:59:11,126
d.c. Is a union town fueled by working people.

3900
04:59:11,126 --> 04:59:15,397
we answer our neighbors, the truckers and shop workers who

3901
04:59:15,397 --> 04:59:18,267
sheep our shelves stocked. The ride share drivers who get

3902
04:59:18,267 --> 04:59:26,209
to us to where we need to go and the first responders who show up

3903
04:59:26,209 --> 04:59:31,214
at a moment's knnotice. It's up to us, the working

3904
04:59:31,214 --> 04:59:35,840
people of washington, d.c., to decide when and how to introduce

3905
04:59:35,840 --> 04:59:39,154
technology in the community and allow -- and allow it to shape

3906
04:59:39,154 --> 04:59:43,354
our lives. It shouldn't be silicon valley

3907
04:59:46,295 --> 04:59:49,632
ek extiecutives. It should be us.

3908
04:59:49,632 --> 04:59:54,303
and they roll out needs to have trang protectors for workers.

3909
04:59:54,303 --> 04:59:58,307
cities like san francisco and phoenix did not have a chance to

3910
04:59:58,307 --> 05:00:03,312
create guardrails around the commercial robo taxis and they

3911
05:00:03,312 --> 05:00:07,500
are struggling in the industry. This bill calls for a study of

3912
05:00:07,500 --> 05:00:13,722
the impacts on the taxi and ride share sfindustries and the jobs

3913
05:00:13,722 --> 05:00:18,522
those jobs create. And also, supposedly creates a

3914
05:00:18,527 --> 05:00:23,799
front for the workers. And at the same time, the

3915
05:00:23,799 --> 05:00:27,736
extraordinarily authorizes -- the mass use of robo taxis

3916
05:00:27,736 --> 05:00:32,800
blindly without waiting for the results of the study without

3917
05:00:32,800 --> 05:00:36,178
understanding the impacts of finally, dc does not need

3918
05:00:36,178 --> 05:00:43,853
to follow that path. It must not follow that path. We can chart a

3919
05:00:43,853 --> 05:00:46,155
different course and need strong measures that protect drivers in

3920
05:00:46,155 --> 05:00:49,692
the city and everything they contribute to our economy. Until

3921
05:00:49,692 --> 05:00:53,195
those are included, we ask that you reject this dangerous

3922
05:00:53,195 --> 05:00:55,664
legislation. Thank you very much.

3923
05:00:55,664 --> 05:00:59,864
>> thank you very much. Ms. Middleton now.

3924
05:01:02,238 --> 05:01:06,776
>> hello. How you doing? I'm krista middleton. I was born and

3925
05:01:06,776 --> 05:01:10,179
raised in dc and work in the district as a special police

3926
05:01:10,179 --> 05:01:16,586
officer. I also drive for uber and lyft. I am a mother and a

3927
05:01:16,586 --> 05:01:19,789
grandmother. Recently I've had to drive for you caner and lyft

3928
05:01:19,789 --> 05:01:24,927
more frequently to support my family due to the skyrocketing

3929
05:01:24,927 --> 05:01:28,931
bills and expenses. I used to be able to get overtime at my

3930
05:01:28,931 --> 05:01:32,869
full-time job as a special police officer in the district,

3931
05:01:32,869 --> 05:01:37,206
but now that has been cut due to federal budget cuts. Ride share

3932
05:01:37,206 --> 05:01:43,346
has provided me the flexibility to earn extra income, which I

3933
05:01:43,346 --> 05:01:49,180
need with my children and my grandchildren that rely on me.

3934
05:01:49,180 --> 05:01:53,555
every day I finish my nine-hour shift as a special police

3935
05:01:53,555 --> 05:01:58,894
officer in the district, I still get in my car and do a ride

3936
05:01:58,894 --> 05:02:05,167
share driving anywhere from 4-6 hours per day to make money just

3937
05:02:05,167 --> 05:02:10,390
to stay afloat. This income supports my weekly groceries and

3938
05:02:10,390 --> 05:02:15,244
essentials for my family. I cannot understand why when dc is

3939
05:02:15,244 --> 05:02:19,515
in the middle of an unemployment crisis the council is

3940
05:02:19,515 --> 05:02:24,186
considering bringing waymo, a company that will put thousands

3941
05:02:24,186 --> 05:02:29,125
of drivers like myself, out of work and devastate the local

3942
05:02:29,125 --> 05:02:34,525
economy. When drivers lose income, our whole local economy

3943
05:02:36,298 --> 05:02:40,498
suffers. Gas stations, car washes, convenient stores,

3944
05:02:40,803 --> 05:02:44,740
restaurants, et cetera. We depend on those things just as

3945
05:02:44,740 --> 05:02:50,880
well as they depend on us to support those local businesses.

3946
05:02:50,880 --> 05:02:54,683
row bo taxis also -- robotaxis don't pay taxes. They don't

3947
05:02:54,683 --> 05:02:57,486
raise families here, they don't vote, they don't make judgment

3948
05:02:57,486 --> 05:03:01,890
calls when someone is in trouble. This isn't just a

3949
05:03:01,890 --> 05:03:07,290
public safety issue, it's all about profit. Profits not

3950
05:03:08,764 --> 05:03:11,233
getting reinvested in the district but instead going

3951
05:03:11,233 --> 05:03:15,305
straight to silicon valley. But it's not just about the economy,

3952
05:03:15,305 --> 05:03:21,177
it is about people. I as a driver, I always help people on

3953
05:03:21,177 --> 05:03:27,500
a daily basis in my regular job and in ride sharing. Including

3954
05:03:27,500 --> 05:03:32,450
those coming from hospitals, blind or deaf passengers that

3955
05:03:33,255 --> 05:03:37,125
need assistance and people with special needs through metro

3956
05:03:37,125 --> 05:03:40,529
access. Sometimes passengers, especially elderly passengers,

3957
05:03:40,529 --> 05:03:44,499
tell me that I am the only person that they've actually

3958
05:03:44,499 --> 05:03:49,899
spoken to that day. I've received multiple requests for

3959
05:03:57,480 --> 05:04:00,348
women leaving events that want women drives to safely take them

3960
05:04:00,348 --> 05:04:08,148
to their homes from events. Row bo taxis will not do any of

3961
05:04:08,224 --> 05:04:14,824
that. I would like to extend this sincere invitation to any

3962
05:04:15,231 --> 05:04:21,237
council member to join me on the shift behind the wheel so you

3963
05:04:21,237 --> 05:04:27,430
can see yourself and how human, you know, providing a human

3964
05:04:27,430 --> 05:04:32,443
service is ibram valuable service to your community. I

3965
05:04:33,820 --> 05:04:36,251
support technology and innovation and people are

3966
05:04:36,251 --> 05:04:41,390
skeptical. People were skeptical of you caner and lyft when they

3967
05:04:41,390 --> 05:04:44,727
started, but they created new job ntsb area and new way of

3968
05:04:44,727 --> 05:04:48,798
working. But driverless cars like waymo are different. They

3969
05:04:48,798 --> 05:04:54,798
don't create a opportunity for our neighbors. They just erase

3970
05:04:56,272 --> 05:04:58,741
it. For ride share opportunities

3971
05:04:58,741 --> 05:05:04,279
vanish in dc, we'll struggle to make ends meet. The shift

3972
05:05:04,279 --> 05:05:10,879
towards robotaxi benefits only a few ceo in silicon valley and

3973
05:05:11,821 --> 05:05:14,224
harming many in the district. Thank you for hearing my

3974
05:05:14,224 --> 05:05:17,224
testimony. >> thank you very much.

3975
05:05:21,300 --> 05:05:25,000
>> good afternoon. I'm helen rainer, and I worked in war dc

3976
05:05:25,000 --> 05:05:30,239
for over 20 years. -- washington dc for over 20 years. A proud

3977
05:05:30,239 --> 05:05:35,311
member of sciu-3 # 2bj. In addition to my full-time job,

3978
05:05:35,311 --> 05:05:40,116
I've been driving for uber and lyft through the dc metro area

3979
05:05:40,116 --> 05:05:43,518
since 2019. The income I earn from driving helps me make ends

3980
05:05:43,518 --> 05:05:49,518
meet and support my family without the extra income, I

3981
05:05:50,580 --> 05:05:53,329
honestly adopt know where I would be. -- don't know where I

3982
05:05:53,329 --> 05:05:57,733
would be. If autonomous vehicles are allowed to operate in dc.

3983
05:05:57,733 --> 05:06:01,336
drivers like me would lose rides and see our earnings decline,

3984
05:06:01,336 --> 05:06:04,273
which we're already fighting. That would have a serious

3985
05:06:04,273 --> 05:06:08,811
financial impact on me and my family. We cannot rush to bring

3986
05:06:08,811 --> 05:06:12,581
autonomous vehicles into our city without first making sure

3987
05:06:12,581 --> 05:06:15,818
they truly benefit the people that live and work here, not

3988
05:06:15,818 --> 05:06:19,488
just the companies drying them. I'm also deeply concerned about

3989
05:06:19,488 --> 05:06:24,493
the safety issues autonomous vehicles have already had in

3990
05:06:24,493 --> 05:06:29,300
other cities. There's been reports of crashes, traffic

3991
05:06:29,300 --> 05:06:33,168
disruptions and situations where they fail to respond properly to

3992
05:06:33,168 --> 05:06:35,971
pedestrians, cyclists and other drives. As a mother, those

3993
05:06:35,971 --> 05:06:41,510
concerns hit especially close to home. I work near day care

3994
05:06:41,510 --> 05:06:46,181
centers and young children are often on crowded sidewalks and

3995
05:06:46,181 --> 05:06:49,785
in crossing some of the busiest intersections in the cities. How

3996
05:06:49,785 --> 05:06:53,823
can we be certain a driverless vehicle will recognize and

3997
05:06:53,823 --> 05:06:58,960
safely respond to children in these situations. Our city is

3998
05:06:58,960 --> 05:07:03,198
not ready for autonomous vehicles like waymo. They

3999
05:07:03,198 --> 05:07:06,201
threaten the livelihoods of hard working people like me, while

4000
05:07:06,201 --> 05:07:11,601
also raising serious public safety concerns. One thing were

4001
05:07:17,546 --> 05:07:22,818
signs of human trafficking and I don't see where waymo is able to

4002
05:07:22,818 --> 05:07:26,221
do that when we are out there talking to people, seeing

4003
05:07:26,221 --> 05:07:30,893
people, sometimes we have people who are going through mental

4004
05:07:30,893 --> 05:07:35,364
distress and all the professional and stypes we're

4005
05:07:35,364 --> 05:07:42,237
the one there is to talk them off the ledge. I urge you to put

4006
05:07:42,237 --> 05:07:46,508
the people of dc by protecting our jo jobs and ensuring the

4007
05:07:46,508 --> 05:07:51,908
streets are safe and allowing autonomous vehicles here. Thank

4008
05:07:52,470 --> 05:07:53,582
you for your time and consideration.

4009
05:07:53,582 --> 05:08:00,322
>> thank you very much. Let me start. We met maybe a month or

4010
05:08:00,322 --> 05:08:06,144
so ago. At the time atu shared a memo outlines several

4011
05:08:06,144 --> 05:08:11,483
recommendations would it be fair to say it would be fair to say

4012
05:08:11,483 --> 05:08:15,860
these are the recommendations? >> slightly expanded and updated

4013
05:08:15,860 --> 05:08:18,623
testimony included additional two or three.

4014
05:08:18,623 --> 05:08:22,260
>> I'll make sure. I'm not going to have time to go through every

4015
05:08:22,260 --> 05:08:25,430
single one and there's a couple I want to ask you about on the

4016
05:08:25,430 --> 05:08:30,302
record to make sure we went through. I think your first one

4017
05:08:30,302 --> 05:08:36,902
for example was vehicles require ago cdl should not be included.

4018
05:08:39,577 --> 05:08:44,377
I think we keep using the phrase "robotaxi."

4019
05:08:45,820 --> 05:08:46,317
>> correct. >> the common assumption we're

4020
05:08:46,317 --> 05:08:50,788
all saying is passenger vehicle, not freight vehicle, but your

4021
05:08:50,788 --> 05:08:54,125
recommendation is make is ex-police it. And cdl be one way

4022
05:08:54,125 --> 05:08:57,725
to do that? >> correct. [inaudible] vehicle

4023
05:08:58,896 --> 05:09:03,696
position any vehicle over 10 pol driver's license and

4024
05:09:08,606 --> 05:09:12,410
transferring hazardous materials should not be proactively

4025
05:09:12,410 --> 05:09:15,120
permitted by this type of legislation.

4026
05:09:15,120 --> 05:09:19,484
>> I would 100% agree with you and I have no concept in my mind

4027
05:09:19,484 --> 05:09:22,487
allowing hazardous materials through and fair point, not

4028
05:09:22,487 --> 05:09:25,289
explicitly saying that. >> rather on the safe side.

4029
05:09:25,289 --> 05:09:32,489
>> I hear you. I hear you. One of the recommendation recomm re-

4030
05:09:33,164 --> 05:09:37,964
recommendation hades to do with remote operations system

4031
05:09:38,703 --> 05:09:41,105
requirement. Anyone not that deep, there's remote workers

4032
05:09:41,105 --> 05:09:44,575
with the ability to actually help operate the vehicle

4033
05:09:44,575 --> 05:09:46,512
remotely. >> correct.

4034
05:09:46,512 --> 05:09:49,647
>> your recommendation is any remote worker should have taken

4035
05:09:49,647 --> 05:09:53,247
and passed dc's driver's test. >> correct.

4036
05:09:53,651 --> 05:09:57,254
>> are we aware of examples where there's a remote operator

4037
05:09:57,254 --> 05:10:01,325
operating a vehicle in a different jurisdiction --

4038
05:10:01,325 --> 05:10:04,629
>> we are aware of examples because waymo had to deal with

4039
05:10:04,629 --> 05:10:09,429
incident where remote operations facilities located in the

4040
05:10:09,467 --> 05:10:11,669
philippines. Goal with propose amendment would be if you're

4041
05:10:11,669 --> 05:10:15,730
going to be doing a remote operator assistance moving

4042
05:10:15,730 --> 05:10:21,110
vehicles on dc streets, you should probably have a dc

4043
05:10:21,110 --> 05:10:24,611
driver's license. >> okay. Common sense there.

4044
05:10:26,840 --> 05:10:29,854
really interesting point you kind of phrased as a backstop

4045
05:10:29,854 --> 05:10:34,692
for the vmt. Obviously the district of columbia, we're not

4046
05:10:34,692 --> 05:10:39,363
a huge location. A trip that might take a long amount of time

4047
05:10:39,363 --> 05:10:43,368
is not actually traveling a long distance so you're

4048
05:10:43,368 --> 05:10:46,304
recommendation is considering the vehicle hours traveled in

4049
05:10:46,304 --> 05:10:51,442
other words to take into consideration the distance not

4050
05:10:51,442 --> 05:10:53,978
long but time maybe? >> it's a good comparison back

4051
05:10:53,978 --> 05:10:57,315
to old days of taxis and you were waiting and not moving and

4052
05:10:57,315 --> 05:11:01,119
all of a sudden a switch would flip in the number would still

4053
05:11:01,119 --> 05:11:05,123
keep increasing for the amount that you were getting charged

4054
05:11:05,123 --> 05:11:07,126
but it would go into wait time. Part of the issue is obviously

4055
05:11:07,126 --> 05:11:13,126
your proposal around vmt is dealing with the fact elect

4056
05:11:13,497 --> 05:11:16,000
trick vehicles not paying gas tax and fund this system we're

4057
05:11:16,000 --> 05:11:22,140
paying for collectively but the issue with vmt is like you said,

4058
05:11:22,140 --> 05:11:26,945
it's -- this is a district of 1. Not a lot of distance to travel.

4059
05:11:26,945 --> 05:11:31,416
the vmt you're collecting might not be sufficient to offset the

4060
05:11:31,416 --> 05:11:34,685
congestion effects of these vehicles. So if you're going to

4061
05:11:34,685 --> 05:11:38,989
mitigate congestion to mitigate the fact these vehicles might be

4062
05:11:38,989 --> 05:11:43,428
everywhere, which is a major concern of a public transit

4063
05:11:43,428 --> 05:11:46,698
union, we propose a vehicle hours traveled as backstop

4064
05:11:46,698 --> 05:11:48,766
measure to make sure that basically whenever is the higher

4065
05:11:48,766 --> 05:11:53,138
of the two would be what the district ultimately collects.

4066
05:11:53,138 --> 05:11:55,407
>> got it. Thank you. We'll take a look at

4067
05:11:55,407 --> 05:11:57,641
that after the hearing too. Not hitting every one of the points

4068
05:11:57,641 --> 05:12:03,615
but the other to ask you while you're here, the intention

4069
05:12:03,615 --> 05:12:08,185
around the transit incentive program is all right, big claims

4070
05:12:08,185 --> 05:12:11,322
are made and saying I'm not going to pick on one. The

4071
05:12:11,322 --> 05:12:15,527
operator will say no, we really connect people to transit. Use

4072
05:12:15,527 --> 05:12:22,727
our capital one example earlier there's hubs of act and I have

4073
05:12:34,346 --> 05:12:40,946
the enlivening to that. What you're saying is make sure it

4074
05:12:42,887 --> 05:12:45,289
work when is you use the transit system.

4075
05:12:45,289 --> 05:12:49,227
>> the fear would be that people are using avs to substitute what

4076
05:12:49,227 --> 05:12:53,131
could have been public transit trips and call this dismissively

4077
05:12:53,131 --> 05:12:56,434
avs as anti-public transit. They're moving people

4078
05:12:56,434 --> 05:12:57,969
potentially into single combined effect wan seizure disorders

4079
05:12:57,969 --> 05:13:02,107
vehicles and take up more of the roadway and being less of a

4080
05:13:02,107 --> 05:13:05,243
public transit option thees the way to prevent any type of

4081
05:13:05,243 --> 05:13:10,643
transit incentive program or discounts being offered is make

4082
05:13:13,918 --> 05:13:17,550
sure the perk taps their card and -- person taps their card

4083
05:13:17,550 --> 05:13:21,359
and takes a trip. It risks subsidizing a nice trip to

4084
05:13:21,359 --> 05:13:26,310
capital one arena. >> exactly. Again, that's why we

4085
05:13:26,310 --> 05:13:29,601
hold a hearing on bills, cha you're describing is the intent

4086
05:13:29,601 --> 05:13:31,870
of legislation. >> yes, definitely.

4087
05:13:31,870 --> 05:13:34,139
>> hearings help us narrow down and get precise with the

4088
05:13:34,139 --> 05:13:37,139
language. >> okay, that's helpful. Mr

4089
05:13:43,481 --> 05:13:49,287
mr. Cantraras. This bill does not represent you caner and lyft

4090
05:13:49,287 --> 05:13:50,955
drivers; correct? >> not in dc.

4091
05:13:50,955 --> 05:13:54,240
>> got pointed. Not just in dc. Where do they represent yber and

4092
05:13:54,240 --> 05:13:56,240
lyft? >> boston. Massachusetts.

4093
05:13:56,928 --> 05:14:02,767
>> all right. And part of the conversation has also been

4094
05:14:02,767 --> 05:14:08,773
talking about a labor piece, when you say that do you mean I

4095
05:14:08,773 --> 05:14:11,642
respect and recognize saying if the bill is moving forward, not

4096
05:14:11,642 --> 05:14:14,245
advocating for the bill. If the bill moves forward, your

4097
05:14:14,245 --> 05:14:18,697
recommendation is labor piece for things like fleet

4098
05:14:18,697 --> 05:14:23,969
maintenance for all workers with autonomous vehicle operator. Are

4099
05:14:23,969 --> 05:14:29,941
you going beyond that also to other labor piece. Help me

4100
05:14:29,941 --> 05:14:33,545
understand what you mean a bit more about what hawkeyes you're

4101
05:14:33,545 --> 05:14:39,840
recommending when it comes to having a labor peace agreement?

4102
05:14:39,840 --> 05:14:41,887
>> we believe if this goes forward at some point, whatever

4103
05:14:41,887 --> 05:14:46,624
small number of jobs created should be good jobs, good union

4104
05:14:46,624 --> 05:14:52,564
jobs with benefits, good wages and worker protection and, yes,

4105
05:14:52,564 --> 05:14:59,104
at some point we would want those jobs to be covered by

4106
05:14:59,104 --> 05:15:06,100
labor piece and also uber and lyft. They also need to do right

4107
05:15:06,100 --> 05:15:11,650
by their workers who work for them. Right now those are

4108
05:15:11,650 --> 05:15:14,252
considered independent contractors and have no benefits

4109
05:15:14,252 --> 05:15:18,452
whatsoever and they're 1099 employees basically. It should

4110
05:15:19,124 --> 05:15:22,795
be pretty broad who is covered. >> that's incredibly important

4111
05:15:22,795 --> 05:15:26,865
point in that you caner and lyft take about 50% out of every --

4112
05:15:26,865 --> 05:15:31,804
uber and lyft take about 50% of every ride into their pocket and

4113
05:15:31,804 --> 05:15:34,339
drivers don't have health insurance, retirement or

4114
05:15:34,339 --> 05:15:37,609
benefits. They're independent contractors. One thing that the

4115
05:15:37,609 --> 05:15:43,900
legislation is attempting to do and again, acknowledging you're

4116
05:15:44,950 --> 05:15:49,154
not supportive of the element here and have the revenue

4117
05:15:49,154 --> 05:15:51,790
getting generated and goes back to try and help a workforce that

4118
05:15:51,790 --> 05:15:58,990
will be impacted, displaced. I said early on, no no one should

4119
05:16:04,102 --> 05:16:08,507
say "if" workers are impacted. It's "when." I can think about

4120
05:16:08,507 --> 05:16:12,144
the fact that I don't get a newspaper on my doorstep

4121
05:16:12,144 --> 05:16:16,315
anymore. I read it din tally. Doesn't mean that -- digitally.

4122
05:16:16,315 --> 05:16:18,316
doesn't mean it's a negative thing. I like to get my news in

4123
05:16:18,316 --> 05:16:23,255
a digital format but somebody somewhere was impacted with that

4124
05:16:23,255 --> 05:16:29,255
transition; right? We want to move towards more clean energy

4125
05:16:30,162 --> 05:16:33,799
creation. Probably mean as cole miner similar pacted and

4126
05:16:33,799 --> 05:16:39,471
different technology innovation has impacts and try to set up

4127
05:16:39,471 --> 05:16:41,874
ability for 50% of the funds going into some type of, and

4128
05:16:41,874 --> 05:16:44,677
leave it intentionally vague to start with to get the feedback,

4129
05:16:44,677 --> 05:16:49,615
some type of fund to help with workforce transition and

4130
05:16:49,615 --> 05:16:51,750
everything from direct compensation to people that lose

4131
05:16:51,750 --> 05:16:54,753
their jobs. Could be everything from workforce transition and

4132
05:16:54,753 --> 05:16:58,957
workforce training. What are ways that you think the council

4133
05:16:58,957 --> 05:17:02,894
can best try to get ideas, feedback, recommendation around

4134
05:17:02,894 --> 05:17:07,366
ways to be impactful touchdown catch so that funds generated

4135
05:17:07,366 --> 05:17:12,338
actually -- impactful so that funds generated can be helpful

4136
05:17:12,338 --> 05:17:14,840
for workers? >> you're right. Automation has

4137
05:17:14,840 --> 05:17:19,311
never been good for workers. That's bottom line what it is.

4138
05:17:19,311 --> 05:17:22,581
whether you're working in a grocery store or toll booth;

4139
05:17:22,581 --> 05:17:29,181
right, those jobs are no longer -- or almost extinct. Our

4140
05:17:30,188 --> 05:17:33,325
position is that if there's a study, we should let the study

4141
05:17:33,325 --> 05:17:36,995
go forward and not rush into bringing avs into our city

4142
05:17:36,995 --> 05:17:44,195
before the study findings are public to all of us. That's our

4143
05:17:49,607 --> 05:17:53,110
position as a union and we're not opposed to innovation. But

4144
05:17:53,110 --> 05:18:00,552
it has to benefit the public and it has to benefit workers in

4145
05:18:00,552 --> 05:18:04,890
whatever small number of jobs created, they should be good

4146
05:18:04,890 --> 05:18:07,358
union jobs. >> okay. Your recommendation is

4147
05:18:07,358 --> 05:18:11,965
while the legislation requires this st study to help inform wht

4148
05:18:11,965 --> 05:18:14,733
we do with the fund and what the impacts will be, your

4149
05:18:14,733 --> 05:18:18,437
recommendation is essentially trying to tie that report to any

4150
05:18:18,437 --> 05:18:21,874
permit being issued. Am I hearing that correct?

4151
05:18:21,874 --> 05:18:23,642
>> say that again, the last part of your question.

4152
05:18:23,642 --> 05:18:26,578
>> am I hearing your recommendation while the reports

4153
05:18:26,578 --> 05:18:29,514
in the legislation, am I hearing you correctly that your

4154
05:18:29,514 --> 05:18:33,585
recommendation is don't allow a permit move forward until it's

4155
05:18:33,585 --> 05:18:35,988
been completed? >> correct, yes. That is

4156
05:18:35,988 --> 05:18:40,259
correct. We also sent you a set of recommendations if you are --

4157
05:18:40,259 --> 05:18:44,529
once a study comes out, are you going to move forward with any

4158
05:18:44,529 --> 05:18:46,800
legislation like this? We send you some recommendations that I

4159
05:18:46,800 --> 05:18:50,135
think would be useful for a few discussions as well.

4160
05:18:50,135 --> 05:18:55,274
>> okay. Devil's advocate here. We've been waiting for a ddot

4161
05:18:55,274 --> 05:19:01,613
report for quite a long time. There's a concern that if we tie

4162
05:19:01,613 --> 05:19:04,350
something and say we have to wait for a report to get done,

4163
05:19:04,350 --> 05:19:08,870
one strategy is that report sits on the shelf and never moves

4164
05:19:08,870 --> 05:19:11,230
forward. I don't think a report should take that long to be able

4165
05:19:11,230 --> 05:19:14,760
to come up with -- needs to be done right and don't take that

4166
05:19:14,760 --> 05:19:19,898
long. One could be the report is done by a certain deadline to

4167
05:19:19,898 --> 05:19:25,370
ensure it's completed. I have a hunch that the incoming mayor in

4168
05:19:25,370 --> 05:19:29,707
january will not sit on a report like this. That's one way to

4169
05:19:29,707 --> 05:19:32,544
look at it to think about what that could be.

4170
05:19:32,544 --> 05:19:39,744
>> okay. Yeah. We agree. I think that's the impact of people it's

4171
05:19:49,527 --> 05:19:53,127
going to hurt. >> people excited about

4172
05:19:54,866 --> 05:19:58,670
autonomous vehicles and believe it opens up inexpert witness for

4173
05:19:58,670 --> 05:20:02,541
them. -- independence for them and people say I think it'll be

4174
05:20:02,541 --> 05:20:09,548
a negative impact for us. I said at the opening, I don't find

4175
05:20:09,548 --> 05:20:12,684
much ambivalence around this and people are really in support or

4176
05:20:12,684 --> 05:20:15,721
opposition and we want to get feedback to see what we can do

4177
05:20:15,721 --> 05:20:20,425
so the testimony is really helpful. And it is a lot of

4178
05:20:20,425 --> 05:20:23,495
balancing that we're trying to do. Your advice and

4179
05:20:23,495 --> 05:20:25,431
recommendations even if not supporting the overall bill and

4180
05:20:25,431 --> 05:20:28,378
say if it's coming, these are the things we believe need to

4181
05:20:28,378 --> 05:20:33,717
take place. I think that makes whatever decision we make a

4182
05:20:33,717 --> 05:20:36,520
better one. Appreciate it. >> appreciate it.

4183
05:20:36,520 --> 05:20:38,521
thank you. >> thank you all very much.

4184
05:20:38,521 --> 05:20:42,592
appreciate your testimony. We move to our next panel. I've got

4185
05:20:42,592 --> 05:20:47,992
jessica kelly with the teamsters local 639. Another speaker with

4186
05:20:55,539 --> 05:21:00,339
teamsters 639 and thomas doyle state director of national

4187
05:21:04,147 --> 05:21:08,347
teamster brothers. Jessica is not here, okay.

4188
05:21:12,755 --> 05:21:17,961
>> good afternoon. Thank you. >> aa or as de good afternoon. E

4189
05:21:17,961 --> 05:21:20,290
ready. >> thank you for allowing me to

4190
05:21:20,290 --> 05:21:25,429
speak. I'm demoni. Ups driver with teamsters local 639 and

4191
05:21:25,669 --> 05:21:28,305
here not just as a individual but representative of tens of

4192
05:21:28,305 --> 05:21:30,574
thousands of drivers in the district of columbia who keep

4193
05:21:30,574 --> 05:21:35,978
our economy moving. As a ups driver, I play an essential role

4194
05:21:35,978 --> 05:21:38,948
in district supply chain. Every day I safely deliver packages to

4195
05:21:38,948 --> 05:21:42,520
homes and businesses across our situate this work is more than a

4196
05:21:42,520 --> 05:21:44,721
job. It's a career that provides a fair wage, supports my family,

4197
05:21:44,721 --> 05:21:49,793
and enables me to contribute to our community. I'm a proud

4198
05:21:49,793 --> 05:21:53,930
teamster. This union secured a livelihood that many district

4199
05:21:53,930 --> 05:21:57,267
residents rely on and it's helped create a middle class

4200
05:21:57,267 --> 05:22:02,339
backbone for our economy. Replacing my job with driverless

4201
05:22:02,339 --> 05:22:06,760
vehicle would not only put the district at risk, it would

4202
05:22:06,760 --> 05:22:10,279
undermine the middle class that sustains local as much ass,

4203
05:22:10,279 --> 05:22:14,918
schools and neighborhoods. There are clear real world

4204
05:22:14,918 --> 05:22:18,855
implications behind tech enthusiasm. Jobs and local

4205
05:22:18,855 --> 05:22:22,626
economy, driverless vehicles threaten tens of thousands of

4206
05:22:22,626 --> 05:22:26,229
driving jobs in our district and ripple through related sectors.

4207
05:22:26,229 --> 05:22:29,165
maintenance fuelling and logistic coordination and route

4208
05:22:29,165 --> 05:22:32,680
planning. Working people lose good jobs, consumer spending

4209
05:22:32,680 --> 05:22:35,505
declines and small businesses suffer and tax revenue shrink

4210
05:22:35,505 --> 05:22:41,505
hurting public services we all rely on. Driveless technology is

4211
05:22:42,311 --> 05:22:47,250
still maturing even with testing and autonomous systems must

4212
05:22:47,250 --> 05:22:50,850
navigate unpredictable urban environments. Construction zones

4213
05:22:51,921 --> 05:22:58,194
and weather in dense districts like dc, the reality on the

4214
05:22:58,194 --> 05:23:02,394
ground includes pedestrian cyclists and cannot be

4215
05:23:08,871 --> 05:23:10,940
replicated overnight. It depends on reliable delivery network to

4216
05:23:10,940 --> 05:23:15,450
keep essential flowing and more thanes, holidays and

4217
05:23:15,450 --> 05:23:18,815
disruptions. Over reliance on automation without robust human

4218
05:23:18,815 --> 05:23:21,685
backup creates single points of failures affecting families and

4219
05:23:21,685 --> 05:23:26,223
businesses alike. Ups drivers and other front line workers

4220
05:23:26,223 --> 05:23:30,227
operate under establish safety wage and benefits, protections

4221
05:23:30,227 --> 05:23:33,230
negotiated through a collective bargaining allowing driverless

4222
05:23:33,230 --> 05:23:38,267
vehicles to replace the roles and risks eroding a hard one and

4223
05:23:38,267 --> 05:23:42,840
protection that protects workers safety and -- professional

4224
05:23:42,840 --> 05:23:46,977
drivers bring expertise in route optimization security and

4225
05:23:46,977 --> 05:23:50,781
customer service which translates into newer damaged

4226
05:23:50,781 --> 05:23:53,383
goods, better last mile experiences and higher overall

4227
05:23:53,383 --> 05:23:58,183
exhibitor seizure doverall -- e. Technology cannot guarantee

4228
05:23:58,922 --> 05:24:03,993
these outcomes and scale without these investments and human

4229
05:24:03,993 --> 05:24:06,993
oversight. Waymo has demonstrated impressive

4230
05:24:08,398 --> 05:24:11,535
sameabilities in controlled scenarios and specialized routes

4231
05:24:11,535 --> 05:24:16,139
and real world urban deployment faced extensive testing,

4232
05:24:16,139 --> 05:24:21,539
regulatory scuteny and on going safety questions. Claps of

4233
05:24:22,345 --> 05:24:24,881
seemless wide scale replacement of drivers and not full scope of

4234
05:24:24,881 --> 05:24:29,686
trial and educate failures and continued need for human

4235
05:24:29,686 --> 05:24:33,757
monitors and operators in many settings. Even when autonomous

4236
05:24:33,757 --> 05:24:36,659
systems perform well, complexity in urban driving means

4237
05:24:36,659 --> 05:24:40,300
accountability. Who's responsible for the errors?

4238
05:24:40,300 --> 05:24:43,166
maintenance, insurance, and incident responses? These

4239
05:24:43,166 --> 05:24:46,837
questions remain unsettled in many jurisdictions and require

4240
05:24:46,837 --> 05:24:51,375
thoughtful policy design to protect the workers and public.

4241
05:24:51,375 --> 05:24:54,377
large scale substitution of driving jobs with autonomous

4242
05:24:54,377 --> 05:24:58,248
vehicles would demand massive capital charging infrastructure,

4243
05:24:58,248 --> 05:25:02,252
maintenance equal system and continuous software updates and

4244
05:25:02,252 --> 05:25:07,791
labor disruption is real and rushed rollout leaving without a

4245
05:25:07,791 --> 05:25:11,728
viable transitional path. What I'm asking today, protect the

4246
05:25:11,728 --> 05:25:16,800
jobs in the district, do not eliminate driverless roles

4247
05:25:16,800 --> 05:25:20,536
without timeless plans for workers including retraining,

4248
05:25:20,536 --> 05:25:22,672
income support, and opportunities to move into a

4249
05:25:22,672 --> 05:25:26,872
higher wage role with transportation and logistic

4250
05:25:27,900 --> 05:25:31,209
sectors. Embrace responsible and innovation. Encourage policy

4251
05:25:31,280 --> 05:25:34,417
that prioritize road safety, accountability and resilience

4252
05:25:34,417 --> 05:25:39,355
while ensuring workers and their families aren't left behind.

4253
05:25:39,355 --> 05:25:43,920
innovation should lift communities not hollow out the

4254
05:25:43,920 --> 05:25:47,292
middle class. Require meaningful stakeholder engagement before

4255
05:25:48,565 --> 05:25:53,360
approval pilot programs are scaleups of autonomous delivery

4256
05:25:53,360 --> 05:25:56,373
and require row customer consultation with labor, small

4257
05:25:56,373 --> 05:25:59,776
businesses and community representatives, public safety

4258
05:25:59,776 --> 05:26:04,576
and economic stability should guide any deployment decisions.

4259
05:26:05,281 --> 05:26:09,386
I want us to demand clear criteria for deployment and if

4260
05:26:09,386 --> 05:26:13,586
it's pursued, insist of transparent milestones, safety

4261
05:26:15,325 --> 05:26:19,595
audits and metrics that protect workers, customers and

4262
05:26:19,595 --> 05:26:23,795
taxpayers. Ensure robust transition framework any move

4263
05:26:27,737 --> 05:26:32,142
towards atomization and guarantee a clear path to

4264
05:26:32,142 --> 05:26:35,978
affordable, stable path for current drivers and related

4265
05:26:35,978 --> 05:26:38,358
workers. That you can't and urge you to oppose measures that

4266
05:26:38,358 --> 05:26:41,894
threaten these livelihoods and support policies and preserve

4267
05:26:41,894 --> 05:26:46,694
and create good family sustaining jobs for district

4268
05:26:46,700 --> 05:26:48,700
residents. >> thank you.

4269
05:26:51,905 --> 05:26:55,241
>> my name is thomas doyle. Serve as state program director

4270
05:26:55,241 --> 05:26:57,910
for the international brotherhood of teamsters here in

4271
05:26:57,910 --> 05:27:01,981
the district of columbia. Local 639 represents about 900

4272
05:27:01,981 --> 05:27:06,181
remembers across the dmv. Nationwide teamsters represent

4273
05:27:06,252 --> 05:27:09,489
1.3 million members that operate every classification of vehicle

4274
05:27:09,489 --> 05:27:14,326
from large 18 wheelers which we're historically known for to

4275
05:27:14,326 --> 05:27:18,526
ambulances, school buses, garage and recycling, receptacle

4276
05:27:19,999 --> 05:27:22,402
vehicles. It is our members that have to face the consequences of

4277
05:27:22,402 --> 05:27:25,939
what the deployment of the vehicles look like in the real

4278
05:27:25,939 --> 05:27:28,808
world scenarios and I want to thank you for holding it

4279
05:27:28,808 --> 05:27:31,811
hearing. It has a bill that will have tremendous impact on lives

4280
05:27:31,811 --> 05:27:37,117
of the members. Our members here in the district of columbia

4281
05:27:37,117 --> 05:27:39,986
live, work and raise their families and each start their

4282
05:27:39,986 --> 05:27:44,230
workday by turning the key in an ignition. These teamsters and

4283
05:27:44,230 --> 05:27:47,427
all professional drivers are relevant stakeholders who's

4284
05:27:47,427 --> 05:27:49,950
concerns need heard when examining this bill, we thank

4285
05:27:49,950 --> 05:27:53,166
you for that opportunity today. I want to be perfectly clear

4286
05:27:53,166 --> 05:27:57,771
that the teamsters do not oppose new technology that would make

4287
05:27:57,771 --> 05:28:02,642
our road safer. . Over the years our drivers trained and adapted

4288
05:28:02,642 --> 05:28:05,845
to work in vehicles that are equipped with emergency brakes,

4289
05:28:05,845 --> 05:28:09,445
lane de-portanovature, tools, speed limiters, electronic

4290
05:28:09,549 --> 05:28:12,986
logging devic devices and more. However, this legislation as

4291
05:28:12,986 --> 05:28:18,386
currently written would give the green light to autonomous

4292
05:28:19,590 --> 05:28:23,630
vehicles of any size and weight, and I understand your intent is

4293
05:28:23,630 --> 05:28:29,100
not that but as a union, the contract language of what matter

4294
05:28:29,100 --> 05:28:33,540
same for the legislative hearts and happy to work with you

4295
05:28:33,540 --> 05:28:37,944
trying to address that. Of the most pressing issues we've

4296
05:28:37,944 --> 05:28:40,546
identified in the legislation, the statement that a permit tee

4297
05:28:40,546 --> 05:28:45,885
can dispatch autonomous vehicles for the transportation of goods,

4298
05:28:45,885 --> 05:28:48,821
this comments the district conflict of livelihoods of

4299
05:28:48,821 --> 05:28:54,821
thousands of members across the dmv making homes and delivers

4300
05:28:55,495 --> 05:28:58,297
across the district. Team stares keep the grocery stores stocked

4301
05:28:58,297 --> 05:29:02,835
at giant foods and keeping our community connected and

4302
05:29:02,835 --> 05:29:05,505
accessible across all eight words. Freight drivers and

4303
05:29:05,505 --> 05:29:09,842
deliver to hospitals and dc public schools and thousands of

4304
05:29:09,842 --> 05:29:14,247
small businesses and our ups members in the ha familiar brown

4305
05:29:14,247 --> 05:29:18,510
uniforms deliver long awaited packages to our doors. Each one

4306
05:29:18,510 --> 05:29:21,651
of the members has comprehensive health

4307
05:29:22,389 --> 05:29:25,592
each one of these members has benefits and take-home

4308
05:29:25,592 --> 05:29:30,392
family-sustaining wages. As a union, we must treat

4309
05:29:30,530 --> 05:29:35,930
legislation as an immediate and direct threat to jobs.

4310
05:29:38,738 --> 05:29:42,742
we urge the members of the committee to continue bringing

4311
05:29:42,742 --> 05:29:46,279
relevant stakeholders together, professional drivers, including

4312
05:29:46,279 --> 05:29:50,479
teamsters members, public, law enforcement, and small

4313
05:29:52,385 --> 05:29:54,354
businesses across the district that will face impact before we

4314
05:29:54,354 --> 05:29:57,954
push unproven vehicles onto our roadway.

4315
05:29:58,958 --> 05:30:02,595
it is important to note this legislative session, every

4316
05:30:02,595 --> 05:30:06,533
single legislature that had the opportunity to expand av

4317
05:30:06,533 --> 05:30:08,968
operation in their state has decided to wait.

4318
05:30:08,968 --> 05:30:13,773
we believe there is no reason to rush the deployment of these

4319
05:30:13,773 --> 05:30:16,576
vehicles in a broad reaching bill.

4320
05:30:16,576 --> 05:30:19,113
I think the experience our members around the country bring

4321
05:30:19,113 --> 05:30:21,247
forward is part of the reason many legislatures have decided

4322
05:30:21,247 --> 05:30:24,847
to wait. I appreciated you mentioning

4323
05:30:27,120 --> 05:30:29,523
earlier we have an expectation these vehicles should be better

4324
05:30:29,523 --> 05:30:33,459
than a human driver. The track record we have seen is

4325
05:30:33,459 --> 05:30:35,862
they are not meeting the standard of being better.

4326
05:30:35,862 --> 05:30:40,620
there are many videos circulating of these

4327
05:30:41,801 --> 05:30:44,801
vehicles crossing with arms deployed.

4328
05:30:49,676 --> 05:30:53,147
drivers in the san francisco area have reported firsthand

4329
05:30:53,147 --> 05:30:57,947
these vehicles are interfering with doing their job.

4330
05:30:58,151 --> 05:31:00,720
collecting garbage is a very dangerous job.

4331
05:31:00,720 --> 05:31:03,423
you are exposed to carcinogens. You are on the streets every

4332
05:31:03,423 --> 05:31:07,230
single day. These vehicles block trash

4333
05:31:08,694 --> 05:31:12,294
receptacles in alleyways. It causes delays.

4334
05:31:12,532 --> 05:31:14,902
who is the first person he hears about garbage not being picked

4335
05:31:14,902 --> 05:31:18,502
up? It is the city council.

4336
05:31:19,939 --> 05:31:23,543
we want to thank you for having us all here today.

4337
05:31:23,543 --> 05:31:25,512
we would like to have the opportunity to answer any

4338
05:31:25,512 --> 05:31:27,647
questions you may have. Chair allen: thank you both very

4339
05:31:27,647 --> 05:31:31,247
much. A couple of quick questions.

4340
05:31:32,850 --> 05:31:37,485
you heard me mention the totality of our conversations

4341
05:31:37,656 --> 05:31:41,494
around what people call robotaxis, the new passenger

4342
05:31:41,494 --> 05:31:45,940
service. Fair point, the legislation is

4343
05:31:45,130 --> 05:31:49,202
not precise with that. Understandably, that could be

4344
05:31:49,202 --> 05:31:55,202
interpreted to mean it could be too expensive -- expansive.

4345
05:31:56,275 --> 05:32:00,475
the intent was talking about passenger travel.

4346
05:32:04,150 --> 05:32:10,222
if the cdl language helps give us the position we need, we can

4347
05:32:10,222 --> 05:32:13,822
report on that after the hearing.

4348
05:32:14,660 --> 05:32:20,233
if the intent you mentioned, it is not freight vehicles.

4349
05:32:20,233 --> 05:32:25,330
you mentioned the language around transportation of goods.

4350
05:32:25,538 --> 05:32:27,840
we can work around the precision of that.

4351
05:32:27,840 --> 05:32:32,445
the idea was talking about, I am getting in and I have my

4352
05:32:32,445 --> 05:32:35,682
groceries from the grocery store, where I have my meal with

4353
05:32:35,682 --> 05:32:40,520
me. It is not an 18-wheeler of goods

4354
05:32:40,520 --> 05:32:45,452
we are transporting. We can work afterwards on that.

4355
05:32:45,528 --> 05:32:48,531
I would be curious, and mr. Petron-king, you might be the

4356
05:32:48,531 --> 05:32:54,700
best to answer this, we have some in the testing phase now.

4357
05:32:54,700 --> 05:32:57,808
two companies have been testing in the district for a while.

4358
05:32:57,808 --> 05:33:04,140
have you had them come down the street or had any interaction?

4359
05:33:04,140 --> 05:33:07,351
it sounds like your colleagues have.

4360
05:33:07,351 --> 05:33:12,751
I'm curious if you have had any of that?

4361
05:33:16,593 --> 05:33:20,696
mr. Petron-king: have I witnessed waymo try to deliver

4362
05:33:20,696 --> 05:33:26,770
or just seen it on my route? Yes, I have seen them on the

4363
05:33:26,770 --> 05:33:31,441
route, just driving around, not doing anything, just driving

4364
05:33:31,441 --> 05:33:34,578
around. Chair allen: have you had any

4365
05:33:34,578 --> 05:33:35,979
negative interactions or seen them not know what to do?

4366
05:33:35,979 --> 05:33:39,584
mr. Petron-king: other than stopping and waiting for a long

4367
05:33:39,584 --> 05:33:42,152
time for them to decide to do, I have seen that.

4368
05:33:42,152 --> 05:33:44,654
I have seen them in pause mode trying to figure out what the

4369
05:33:44,654 --> 05:33:47,657
next step is. Chair allen: ok, and that is in

4370
05:33:47,657 --> 05:33:51,261
the middle of the street? Mr. Petron-king: yes, waiting

4371
05:33:51,261 --> 05:33:55,499
for the waymo to decide what it wants to do at the intersection.

4372
05:33:55,499 --> 05:33:56,333
I have witnessed that personally.

4373
05:33:56,333 --> 05:33:59,933
chair allen: ok, that is helpful.

4374
05:34:00,370 --> 05:34:06,342
the other piece, you don't have to answer right now, you can

4375
05:34:06,342 --> 05:34:10,180
also follow-up, part of what we are trying to do is should the

4376
05:34:10,180 --> 05:34:13,650
bill move forward, 50% of the revenue generated is set up any

4377
05:34:13,650 --> 05:34:17,487
work workforce fund to help support workers either with

4378
05:34:17,487 --> 05:34:21,692
retraining, again, could be direct compensation to a

4379
05:34:21,692 --> 05:34:26,363
displaced worker, any thoughts or ideas you may have about what

4380
05:34:26,363 --> 05:34:29,833
would make the most benefit out of a fund like that?

4381
05:34:29,833 --> 05:34:32,769
you can also get back to us on any recommendations you might

4382
05:34:32,769 --> 05:34:35,639
have. Mr. Petron-king: I think it

4383
05:34:35,639 --> 05:34:38,442
would be beneficial the actual fund be used for what it is

4384
05:34:38,442 --> 05:34:43,413
there for. We can come up with funds all

4385
05:34:43,413 --> 05:34:49,219
day, does not mean it will get to the people that need it.

4386
05:34:49,219 --> 05:34:54,257
chair allen: I think I would underscore the family-sustaining

4387
05:34:54,257 --> 05:34:57,795
wages and benefits members take-home we view as a

4388
05:34:57,795 --> 05:35:02,532
replaceable at this time. Mr. Doyle the intention of the

4389
05:35:02,532 --> 05:35:07,471
fund, we appreciate. For many drivers that ups, these

4390
05:35:07,471 --> 05:35:10,740
are lifelong careers. We think it will take more than

4391
05:35:10,740 --> 05:35:14,144
just a fund to replace such a career.

4392
05:35:14,144 --> 05:35:17,747
we would like to work with you to make sure the fund is

4393
05:35:17,747 --> 05:35:23,147
accessible to our members or any professional driver facing

4394
05:35:23,286 --> 05:35:25,722
replacement by technology. Chair allen: thank you.

4395
05:35:25,722 --> 05:35:32,562
just to make it very clear, ups, fedex delivery, that kind of

4396
05:35:32,562 --> 05:35:34,731
delivery is not in this legislation.

4397
05:35:34,731 --> 05:35:35,765
the language could be more precise.

4398
05:35:35,765 --> 05:35:38,765
thank you. I appreciate it.

4399
05:35:38,802 --> 05:35:46,200
thank you both very much. Let me move to our next panel.

4400
05:35:46,109 --> 05:35:48,112
this will be a combination of people here in person and some

4401
05:35:48,112 --> 05:35:51,515
online. I have reem rayef, project

4402
05:35:51,515 --> 05:35:55,715
manager with the washington metropolitan area transit

4403
05:35:55,719 --> 05:35:59,319
authority. Laura miller brooks, director of

4404
05:36:00,523 --> 05:36:02,191
transportation and infrastructure, federal city

4405
05:36:02,191 --> 05:36:04,591
council. Seth grimes, washington

4406
05:36:06,630 --> 05:36:07,597
organizer of the washington area bicyclist association.

4407
05:36:07,597 --> 05:36:14,797
cheryle adams, public witness. And cheryl cort who is the d.c.

4408
05:36:15,405 --> 05:36:19,275
and prince george's county policy director at the coalition

4409
05:36:19,275 --> 05:36:24,750
for smarter growth who I think is online.

4410
05:36:24,247 --> 05:36:28,447
all right, excellent. 3:00, we are getting there.

4411
05:36:29,419 --> 05:36:35,191
thank you all very much. Reem, we will start with you if

4412
05:36:35,191 --> 05:36:40,591
you are ready. Ms. Rayef: thank you for the

4413
05:36:42,198 --> 05:36:47,598
opportunity to testify. Metro is proud to move the

4414
05:36:48,138 --> 05:36:51,875
district on our transit service and our purpose is to provide

4415
05:36:51,875 --> 05:36:57,875
great service to the region. The district is a transit-first

4416
05:36:58,148 --> 05:36:59,917
city. This is because of the work of

4417
05:36:59,917 --> 05:37:03,520
legislators like yourself who provide metro with the funds and

4418
05:37:03,520 --> 05:37:07,720
policy environment we need. Our streetscapes of

4419
05:37:09,458 --> 05:37:13,196
transit-oriented development and bike lanes and sidewalks tell

4420
05:37:13,196 --> 05:37:17,400
the story of city leadership that understands the importance

4421
05:37:17,400 --> 05:37:19,903
of it. We believe this bill lazor the

4422
05:37:19,903 --> 05:37:24,730
groundwork for thoughtfully integrating -- we believe that

4423
05:37:24,730 --> 05:37:27,743
this bill lays the groundwork for thoughtfully integrating av

4424
05:37:27,743 --> 05:37:32,543
's into the district. Limit interruption through the

4425
05:37:36,219 --> 05:37:40,419
framework. Enforced bus stops of the most

4426
05:37:43,827 --> 05:37:45,628
important. They support buses to move

4427
05:37:45,628 --> 05:37:50,366
through traffic congestion so they can remain on schedule and

4428
05:37:50,366 --> 05:37:56,305
avoid bunching and gapping and ensure that people can safely

4429
05:37:56,305 --> 05:38:00,377
get on and off the bus. Investments in camera enforced

4430
05:38:00,377 --> 05:38:03,713
bus lanes and transit signal priority have meant faster

4431
05:38:03,713 --> 05:38:06,713
trips. Introducing av's has the

4432
05:38:08,418 --> 05:38:10,653
potential to exacerbate the trend of traffic congestion and

4433
05:38:10,653 --> 05:38:14,853
slowing bus service. Av operators must credibly

4434
05:38:16,693 --> 05:38:21,640
demonstrate their ability and intention to complete trips

4435
05:38:21,640 --> 05:38:24,968
without impeding bus lanes and bus stops through the plan.

4436
05:38:24,968 --> 05:38:28,604
at minimum, the plan should outline how commercial operators

4437
05:38:28,604 --> 05:38:32,542
will collaborate with metro to ingest data about our bus

4438
05:38:32,542 --> 05:38:37,280
service on an ongoing basis. Operators should program

4439
05:38:37,280 --> 05:38:42,752
vehicles to abide by d.c.'s parking and driving restrictions

4440
05:38:42,752 --> 05:38:46,289
without exception. It should establish pathways by

4441
05:38:46,289 --> 05:38:50,693
which they communicate regarding detours due to construction and

4442
05:38:50,693 --> 05:38:54,293
other deviations for standard bus service.

4443
05:38:54,630 --> 05:38:59,430
number two, support future planning and transit first

4444
05:39:00,105 --> 05:39:04,305
policies. Metro and ddot are reliant on

4445
05:39:04,642 --> 05:39:07,246
close elaboration and data transparency to enable

4446
05:39:07,246 --> 05:39:10,846
decision-making. Understanding when av trips are

4447
05:39:11,182 --> 05:39:14,786
in demand, how they contribute to congestion, how they interact

4448
05:39:14,786 --> 05:39:18,560
with the curbside and conflict with other modes of transit will

4449
05:39:18,560 --> 05:39:21,460
enable implementing agencies to learn about mobility needs in

4450
05:39:21,460 --> 05:39:24,129
the district and make wise investments.

4451
05:39:24,129 --> 05:39:26,799
sharing trip level data could provide the basis for a

4452
05:39:26,799 --> 05:39:32,700
partnership facilitating smooth av trips for people who want to

4453
05:39:32,700 --> 05:39:34,807
use metrorail but do not have good options to get to the

4454
05:39:34,807 --> 05:39:38,211
nearest station for example. Partnerships like this are

4455
05:39:38,211 --> 05:39:41,811
reliant on ongoing transparency and agreements.

4456
05:39:43,248 --> 05:39:48,648
this legislation should make the av's legal operation contingent

4457
05:39:49,555 --> 05:39:54,227
on trip level data to accurately understand the impact on

4458
05:39:54,227 --> 05:39:58,363
congestion and more. With these two adjustments in

4459
05:39:58,363 --> 05:40:03,969
place, we believe d.c. Could be the first city in the u.s. With

4460
05:40:03,969 --> 05:40:06,370
a clear perspective of how they should fit into city needs.

4461
05:40:06,370 --> 05:40:11,437
av operators state their intention is not to replace

4462
05:40:12,710 --> 05:40:16,910
transit trips. Only 2.8% of the population were

4463
05:40:17,916 --> 05:40:23,555
19,000 residents live more than a quarter-mile from a bus stop.

4464
05:40:23,555 --> 05:40:28,955
expensive coverage is thanks to this counsel ongoing investment

4465
05:40:30,328 --> 05:40:34,266
in transit. We appreciate the inclusion of

4466
05:40:34,266 --> 05:40:38,738
metro in the decision. We are no strangers to

4467
05:40:38,738 --> 05:40:42,410
innovation. We are modernizing the system to

4468
05:40:42,410 --> 05:40:45,944
improve efficiency and appreciate the potential for

4469
05:40:45,944 --> 05:40:47,146
street-level safety improvements that could come from vehicle

4470
05:40:47,146 --> 05:40:50,146
automation. Safer vehicles that rigidly

4471
05:40:50,349 --> 05:40:53,818
abide by traffic laws have the potential to improve bus

4472
05:40:53,818 --> 05:40:56,870
operation. We look forward to operating

4473
05:40:56,870 --> 05:40:59,491
great transit service in a district that balances the needs

4474
05:40:59,491 --> 05:41:04,163
of all. Thank you for the opportunity to

4475
05:41:04,163 --> 05:41:05,290
comment and I would welcome any questions.

4476
05:41:05,290 --> 05:41:08,629
chair allen: thank you very much.

4477
05:41:08,667 --> 05:41:13,467
next, we will turn to laura miller brooks.

4478
05:41:14,706 --> 05:41:19,506
>> I serve as the director of transportation and

4479
05:41:19,913 --> 05:41:21,180
infrastructure for the federal city council.

4480
05:41:21,180 --> 05:41:25,718
I'm here to testify today on behalf of federal city council's

4481
05:41:25,718 --> 05:41:31,118
250 trustees, civic and business leaders deeply invested in the

4482
05:41:32,458 --> 05:41:34,960
long-term success of the district and its residents.

4483
05:41:34,960 --> 05:41:37,610
federal city council applauds councilmember allen for

4484
05:41:37,610 --> 05:41:42,101
introducing and the members for cosponsoring the amendment act

4485
05:41:42,101 --> 05:41:44,501
of 2026. This thoughtful, evidence-based

4486
05:41:46,400 --> 05:41:50,342
bill properly positions the district to transition from

4487
05:41:50,342 --> 05:41:52,811
autonomous vehicle testing to deployment with the goals of

4488
05:41:52,811 --> 05:41:56,148
enhancing traffic safety and consumer choice across all eight

4489
05:41:56,148 --> 05:41:59,148
boards. Embracing smart city technology

4490
05:41:59,952 --> 05:42:03,955
is a proven economic multiplier and its adoption is more

4491
05:42:03,955 --> 05:42:07,555
important now. As the district incorporates

4492
05:42:09,427 --> 05:42:14,299
structural disruptions, now is the time for d.c. To embrace new

4493
05:42:14,299 --> 05:42:16,935
industries and advance technologies to diversify our

4494
05:42:16,935 --> 05:42:20,839
economy. This bill is an opportunity not

4495
05:42:20,839 --> 05:42:24,443
only to improve daily mobility but to ensure d.c.'s

4496
05:42:24,443 --> 05:42:28,747
competitiveness as a global hub for next-generation industries.

4497
05:42:28,747 --> 05:42:32,500
in the past, the district was a national leader in urban

4498
05:42:32,500 --> 05:42:34,450
mobility and transportation innovation.

4499
05:42:34,519 --> 05:42:37,456
yet in recent years, we have lost some of our last year.

4500
05:42:37,456 --> 05:42:41,226
with u.s. Department of transportation headquartered

4501
05:42:41,226 --> 05:42:45,397
here and congress, the city is naturally positioned to showcase

4502
05:42:45,397 --> 05:42:49,334
transportation innovation on the national and global stage.

4503
05:42:49,334 --> 05:42:51,870
this legislation thanks to your leadership signals d.c. Is

4504
05:42:51,870 --> 05:42:55,400
actively pivoting toward the future and is again ready to be

4505
05:42:55,400 --> 05:42:59,211
positioned as a national leader. While the current draft provides

4506
05:42:59,211 --> 05:43:04,616
a solid foundation for the district to be a leader on av

4507
05:43:04,616 --> 05:43:07,419
policy, specific provisions regarding taxation and timing of

4508
05:43:07,419 --> 05:43:12,819
deployment may stifle very aspects and goals of this

4509
05:43:12,891 --> 05:43:17,910
legislation focused on equity,, growth and innovation.

4510
05:43:18,230 --> 05:43:21,833
to ensure the technology can scale successively, operate

4511
05:43:21,833 --> 05:43:24,502
reliably, and remain accessible to all, we recommend the

4512
05:43:24,502 --> 05:43:28,102
following minor adjustments but important adjustments.

4513
05:43:29,241 --> 05:43:35,241
the vehicle miles traveled 10x tax threatens to increase cost

4514
05:43:36,848 --> 05:43:37,883
and price out lower income residents.

4515
05:43:37,883 --> 05:43:42,254
we recommend replacing this with a cap fee that mirrors the local

4516
05:43:42,254 --> 05:43:46,992
gas tax rate or at least has parity with delivery trips.

4517
05:43:46,992 --> 05:43:52,392
the shift from fleet caps to performance milestones, the

4518
05:43:55,334 --> 05:43:59,137
proposed 200-vehicle fleet cap may artificially constrain the

4519
05:43:59,137 --> 05:44:02,207
ability to meet the demand of the market and could create

4520
05:44:02,207 --> 05:44:06,407
unreliable wait times and restrict service availability,

4521
05:44:06,945 --> 05:44:08,945
disproportionately harming residents.

4522
05:44:10,449 --> 05:44:15,420
finally, we request that you remove the 2028 pay to ride

4523
05:44:15,420 --> 05:44:17,820
moratorium. This legislation currently

4524
05:44:19,224 --> 05:44:20,826
blocks paid rides until january of 2028.

4525
05:44:20,826 --> 05:44:25,300
we recommend removing this and allowing any commercial service

4526
05:44:25,300 --> 05:44:30,340
ready to launch to launch as soon as operators meet all of

4527
05:44:30,340 --> 05:44:34,234
the stringent safety needs the legislation outlines.

4528
05:44:35,974 --> 05:44:37,776
federal city council applauds your leadership to introduce

4529
05:44:37,776 --> 05:44:43,949
this act and we are confident the district's agencies will be

4530
05:44:43,949 --> 05:44:46,786
able to deliver these programs effectively and make sure we are

4531
05:44:46,786 --> 05:44:51,586
serving residents with the maximum benefit of commercial

4532
05:44:53,258 --> 05:44:54,527
autonomous vehicle technology. I welcome any questions you may

4533
05:44:54,527 --> 05:44:57,996
have and thank you again for hosting this important forum to

4534
05:44:57,996 --> 05:44:59,664
provide us with the opportunity. Chair allen: thank you very

4535
05:44:59,664 --> 05:45:01,664
much. Seth grimes.

4536
05:45:05,154 --> 05:45:09,559
mr. Grimes: I am seth grimes representing the washington area

4537
05:45:09,559 --> 05:45:12,962
bicyclist association. You will not hear a statement

4538
05:45:12,962 --> 05:45:14,998
that opposes or supports the legislation.

4539
05:45:14,998 --> 05:45:18,568
you will not hear a line by line analysis of changes.

4540
05:45:18,568 --> 05:45:20,937
instead, you will hear a statement of our values, shared

4541
05:45:20,937 --> 05:45:23,937
values. My organization's concerns and

4542
05:45:25,642 --> 05:45:29,112
steps we believe will address those concerns as embodied in

4543
05:45:29,112 --> 05:45:30,646
the legislation you have introduced.

4544
05:45:30,646 --> 05:45:32,646
thank you.

4545
05:45:35,510 --> 05:45:40,451
the association envisions a just and sustainable region where

4546
05:45:40,757 --> 05:45:43,593
walking, biking, and transit are the best ways to get around.

4547
05:45:43,593 --> 05:45:46,996
these are the greenest, most affordable, and most helpful way

4548
05:45:46,996 --> 05:45:50,667
to travel in washington, d.c. They are often also the fastest

4549
05:45:50,667 --> 05:45:54,771
due to backed up traffic on frequently congested streets.

4550
05:45:54,771 --> 05:45:59,743
they are also not the safest. 22 individuals have died on d.c.

4551
05:45:59,743 --> 05:46:05,143
streets in 2028 pedestrians, one scooter rider, and one bike

4552
05:46:07,417 --> 05:46:10,487
rider. It is an artifact of the

4553
05:46:10,487 --> 05:46:14,157
transportation system that focuses on vehicles and

4554
05:46:14,157 --> 05:46:18,357
prioritizes them over transit and active transportation.

4555
05:46:18,762 --> 05:46:20,897
overreliance on cars backed up traffic and slows surface

4556
05:46:20,897 --> 05:46:25,100
transit. The bill would set rules that

4557
05:46:25,100 --> 05:46:29,238
govern the widespread deployment of a new type of commercial

4558
05:46:29,238 --> 05:46:33,143
vehicle, more specifically a new type of driver to the district

4559
05:46:33,143 --> 05:46:36,143
streets. We applaud the legislation's

4560
05:46:37,180 --> 05:46:40,917
cautious approach that covers multiple dimensions including

4561
05:46:40,917 --> 05:46:44,517
safety, congestion, and environmental impacts, equitable

4562
05:46:46,623 --> 05:46:49,993
access across all eight words, and for persons with

4563
05:46:49,993 --> 05:46:53,593
disabilities, and av's repercussions for utilization

4564
05:46:54,197 --> 05:46:57,797
and workers. Av's must improve the

4565
05:46:58,568 --> 05:47:00,300
transportation system for everyone and regulators need to

4566
05:47:00,300 --> 05:47:05,403
ensure av profitability is tied to advancing public interest.

4567
05:47:06,743 --> 05:47:09,612
the council should advance a legal regulatory and

4568
05:47:09,612 --> 05:47:13,212
accountability framework that ensures av deployments

4569
05:47:14,951 --> 05:47:16,420
demonstrably achieve the following criteria when

4570
05:47:16,420 --> 05:47:19,956
operating on district streets. I will offer these in bullet

4571
05:47:19,956 --> 05:47:23,226
form except for the last couple. Av should improve safety.

4572
05:47:23,226 --> 05:47:27,970
they should reduce emissions. They should reduce car ownership

4573
05:47:27,970 --> 05:47:32,435
and have a neutral or positive impact on transit ridership.

4574
05:47:32,435 --> 05:47:39,635
access to for higher av's -- for -higher av's must be equitable.

4575
05:47:41,577 --> 05:47:44,314
there must be strict liability for manufacturers and fleet

4576
05:47:44,314 --> 05:47:47,314
operators. There should be uniform

4577
05:47:47,584 --> 05:47:52,384
operations across the district especially coordinated as these

4578
05:47:53,256 --> 05:47:58,600
are deployed in other districts and there should be transparency

4579
05:47:58,600 --> 05:48:00,864
about operations. Regulations should include

4580
05:48:00,864 --> 05:48:03,864
mandatory transparency about algorithms, external

4581
05:48:05,635 --> 05:48:07,437
verification the code prioritizes safety for

4582
05:48:07,437 --> 05:48:12,442
vulnerable road users and adheres to traffic and parking

4583
05:48:12,442 --> 05:48:16,420
regulations overspeed and rider convenience 100% of

4584
05:48:16,945 --> 05:48:20,545
the time with appropriate enforcement tools.

4585
05:48:21,170 --> 05:48:25,217
finally, there should be transparency affecting back.

4586
05:48:26,556 --> 05:48:29,225
legislation should require public mandatory reporting about

4587
05:48:29,225 --> 05:48:32,562
trips, safety issues, emissions, and impacts on transit

4588
05:48:32,562 --> 05:48:36,162
ridership. Without these factors, av's just

4589
05:48:36,799 --> 05:48:40,999
exacerbate the challenges of our car-dependent transportation

4590
05:48:42,238 --> 05:48:45,800
system while putting gig workers out of work.

4591
05:48:45,800 --> 05:48:50,780
on the safety front, we endorse families for safe streets

4592
05:48:50,780 --> 05:48:53,782
criteria that where they operate they must be at least 10 times

4593
05:48:53,782 --> 05:48:59,155
safer than human drivers on average across the operational

4594
05:48:59,155 --> 05:49:02,558
design domains and never worse than human drivers.

4595
05:49:02,558 --> 05:49:06,896
noting again that 22 individuals have died on d.c. Streets in

4596
05:49:06,896 --> 05:49:14,960
2026, we cite the statement that the standard must not be as safe

4597
05:49:14,871 --> 05:49:18,407
as human drivers, it must be to set us on a trajectory toward

4598
05:49:18,407 --> 05:49:23,207
eliminating traffic deaths. That is what commercial has

4599
05:49:24,347 --> 05:49:28,170
achieved and what we must require of av's.

4600
05:49:28,170 --> 05:49:33,417
we call for a tiered traffic alliance framework that

4601
05:49:33,623 --> 05:49:34,825
escalates regulatory intervention up to the

4602
05:49:34,825 --> 05:49:38,425
revocation of operating authorization when they

4603
05:49:40,290 --> 05:49:41,970
accumulate persistent violations.

4604
05:49:41,970 --> 05:49:46,497
this applies to passing stock school buses and crossing

4605
05:49:50,105 --> 05:49:51,507
crosswalks and parking in a bike lane which is illegal in the

4606
05:49:51,507 --> 05:49:55,845
district, even if the violations do not cause measurable harm.

4607
05:49:55,845 --> 05:49:57,915
where there is harm, manufacturers and operators must

4608
05:49:57,915 --> 05:50:00,316
be held liable. Thank you very much for this

4609
05:50:00,316 --> 05:50:03,519
opportunity to share waba's views on this important

4610
05:50:03,519 --> 05:50:06,989
legislation. Chair allen: thank you very

4611
05:50:06,989 --> 05:50:09,660
much, mr. Grimes. Next, let me turn to cheryle

4612
05:50:09,660 --> 05:50:12,660
adams. Ms. Adams: good afternoon.

4613
05:50:15,798 --> 05:50:22,710
my name is cheryle adams. I live in ward 6 and I serve on

4614
05:50:22,710 --> 05:50:24,607
the d.c. Pedestrian advisory council.

4615
05:50:24,607 --> 05:50:30,607
today, I am testifying as a private resident regarding bill

4616
05:50:31,381 --> 05:50:36,181
26-0684. 33 years ago, I was struck by a

4617
05:50:36,552 --> 05:50:41,758
vehicle while waiting to cross an intersection in downtown d.c.

4618
05:50:41,758 --> 05:50:45,940
that near fatal incident fundamentally changed my life

4619
05:50:45,940 --> 05:50:49,294
and drove me to pedestrian safety advocacy.

4620
05:50:49,432 --> 05:50:55,432
while av technology aims to reduce hair -- human error,

4621
05:50:56,390 --> 05:51:00,239
technology is never objective. Without explicit safety

4622
05:51:01,210 --> 05:51:05,781
oversight, it risks turning our neighborhoods into unsupervised

4623
05:51:05,781 --> 05:51:10,581
corporate testing grounds. Our streets are filled with

4624
05:51:10,853 --> 05:51:15,530
children, parents with strollers , elderly pedestrians, physical

4625
05:51:15,475 --> 05:51:19,750
and sensory impaired pedestrians, tourists darting

4626
05:51:20,880 --> 05:51:25,680
out between parked cars, and crowds crossing active

4627
05:51:26,218 --> 05:51:29,818
intersections. While the bill takes positive

4628
05:51:31,223 --> 05:51:35,423
regulatory steps, it contains a critical gap.

4629
05:51:35,461 --> 05:51:40,861
it fails to require rigorous real-world adverse weather and

4630
05:51:42,169 --> 05:51:45,769
edge case testing data before deployment.

4631
05:51:46,105 --> 05:51:51,310
companies must prove to ddot how the sensors perform in dense

4632
05:51:51,310 --> 05:51:57,310
fog, heavy d.c. Rainstorms, and dark intersections, and exactly

4633
05:51:57,650 --> 05:52:02,455
how the algorithms react when a child steps off a curb.

4634
05:52:02,455 --> 05:52:08,455
when an av fails, a vulnerable pedestrian pays the ultimate

4635
05:52:08,528 --> 05:52:10,996
price. The asymmetry of risk is

4636
05:52:10,996 --> 05:52:14,333
staggering. Between january and july of this

4637
05:52:14,333 --> 05:52:20,933
year alone, d.c. Vision zero data shows the district has

4638
05:52:21,600 --> 05:52:25,678
already lost seven pedestrians with 42 major injuries and over

4639
05:52:25,678 --> 05:52:29,278
300 minor injuries. Nationally, recent data reveals

4640
05:52:31,160 --> 05:52:33,452
the ongoing volatility of this technology.

4641
05:52:33,452 --> 05:52:39,240
just this year, a waymo av struck a child near a school in

4642
05:52:39,240 --> 05:52:43,224
santa monica. A software flock triggered a

4643
05:52:45,431 --> 05:52:49,631
massive recall. And recent outages in san

4644
05:52:50,236 --> 05:52:55,240
francisco and lane errors in los angeles caused several

4645
05:52:55,240 --> 05:52:59,440
intersection gridlocks. We cannot build public safety

4646
05:53:01,460 --> 05:53:02,448
policy on self-reported corporate metrics.

4647
05:53:02,448 --> 05:53:08,448
I urge the council to strengthen it by embedding five

4648
05:53:10,550 --> 05:53:13,550
nonnegotiable mandates. Require independent real-world

4649
05:53:15,927 --> 05:53:18,630
d.c. Testing prior to any deployment.

4650
05:53:18,630 --> 05:53:22,830
mandate continuous safety updates and standardized vehicle

4651
05:53:23,669 --> 05:53:26,690
to pedestrian communication interfaces.

4652
05:53:27,639 --> 05:53:31,839
eradicate ghost vehicle congestion by heavily penalizing

4653
05:53:33,745 --> 05:53:37,345
empty cruising. Protect public space from

4654
05:53:37,415 --> 05:53:41,554
chaotic passenger drop-offs. And enforce strict separate

4655
05:53:41,554 --> 05:53:45,754
oversight of level five driverless systems versus

4656
05:53:48,260 --> 05:53:51,864
driver-assisted software. Let us measure the success of

4657
05:53:51,864 --> 05:53:57,864
bill 26-0684 not by corporate revenue generated but by human

4658
05:54:02,775 --> 05:54:04,444
lives protected. Thank you, and I welcome your

4659
05:54:04,444 --> 05:54:06,110
questions. .

4660
05:54:06,110 --> 05:54:08,981
chair allen: thank you very much.

4661
05:54:08,981 --> 05:54:13,520
last on the panel, let me turn to cheryl cort joining us

4662
05:54:13,520 --> 05:54:16,855
online. Ms. Cort: I am representing the

4663
05:54:16,855 --> 05:54:22,855
coalition for smarter growth. To advocate for -- week advocate

4664
05:54:23,796 --> 05:54:26,331
for the most sustainable way for the d.c. Region to grow and

4665
05:54:26,331 --> 05:54:30,403
provide opportunities for all. The district coalition for

4666
05:54:30,403 --> 05:54:35,203
smarter growth supports bill 26-0684, in particular the

4667
05:54:37,676 --> 05:54:41,847
important provisions for recording operations and safety

4668
05:54:41,847 --> 05:54:46,470
data including miles, tax, supporting public transit,

4669
05:54:50,289 --> 05:54:54,159
serving all eight words, and user interface for individuals

4670
05:54:54,159 --> 05:54:57,629
with disabilities. We believe autonomous vehicles

4671
05:54:57,629 --> 05:55:02,134
have the intention to improve roadway safety and provide

4672
05:55:02,134 --> 05:55:05,400
additional transportation options for persons without a

4673
05:55:05,400 --> 05:55:10,309
car or who are unable to drive, especially in areas with limited

4674
05:55:10,309 --> 05:55:14,646
transit options, av and that's also have the potential to

4675
05:55:14,646 --> 05:55:19,385
degrade our cities and towns by adding more traffic and control

4676
05:55:19,385 --> 05:55:23,254
of public streets and curb space to unaccountable private

4677
05:55:23,254 --> 05:55:26,854
companies. We appreciate that this bill

4678
05:55:26,859 --> 05:55:30,263
seeks to address these issues. The district of columbia must

4679
05:55:30,263 --> 05:55:34,463
manage av's to support adopted district policy.

4680
05:55:34,833 --> 05:55:39,330
excuse me. To support district policy that

4681
05:55:41,500 --> 05:55:43,405
prioritizes people over vehicles.

4682
05:55:44,276 --> 05:55:50,276
for instance, policies such as design and manage public space

4683
05:55:51,616 --> 05:55:56,289
and space along the roadway to be people focused promoting

4684
05:55:56,289 --> 05:56:00,159
livability and public health and sustainability, safety, and

4685
05:56:00,159 --> 05:56:03,759
place making. Multiple studies have concluded

4686
05:56:04,196 --> 05:56:09,635
unregulated av's would be -- would have major impacts on

4687
05:56:09,635 --> 05:56:13,835
traffic volumes. A recent synthesis of 26 studies

4688
05:56:14,272 --> 05:56:19,644
found av adoption would increase total city traffic volumes by

4689
05:56:19,644 --> 05:56:23,182
over 5%. This increase is enough to jam

4690
05:56:23,182 --> 05:56:27,382
up key intersections in busy urban corridors.

4691
05:56:27,619 --> 05:56:33,619
in 2020, the d.c. Study likewise found congestion would rise

4692
05:56:36,929 --> 05:56:39,365
significantly without strong policy measures like congestion

4693
05:56:39,365 --> 05:56:42,365
pricing. Av legislation must discourage

4694
05:56:44,269 --> 05:56:48,469
excess traffic, support transit, help travelers with

4695
05:56:48,640 --> 05:56:50,676
disabilities, and ensure accountability and transparency

4696
05:56:50,676 --> 05:56:57,276
by av companies, lest we return to this specific provisions in

4697
05:56:57,883 --> 05:57:04,623
the bill we support and urge the council to move forward strongly

4698
05:57:04,623 --> 05:57:06,859
regulating this emerging technology.

4699
05:57:06,859 --> 05:57:09,695
thank you. Chair allen: thank you very

4700
05:57:09,695 --> 05:57:12,950
much. Appreciate everyone's testimony

4701
05:57:12,831 --> 05:57:15,831
here. Let me start here.

4702
05:57:18,360 --> 05:57:23,436
I was going to ask you about the partnership.

4703
05:57:26,656 --> 05:57:32,656
the bill directs av operators to partner where riders could

4704
05:57:34,397 --> 05:57:38,668
receive discounts for trips that connect to public transit.

4705
05:57:38,668 --> 05:57:42,405
I am not looking for a discount to get you close to transit, it

4706
05:57:42,405 --> 05:57:45,608
has to be on transit. Do you agree the only way that

4707
05:57:45,608 --> 05:57:49,278
makes sense is if we are actually connecting you to

4708
05:57:49,278 --> 05:57:52,615
transit, it has to be connected to that in some way?

4709
05:57:52,615 --> 05:57:57,186
I think I saw your head nodding when talking about this.

4710
05:57:57,186 --> 05:58:00,356
does not make sense that it has to be connected in a meaningful

4711
05:58:00,356 --> 05:58:02,625
way, not just that you get close to a metro station?

4712
05:58:02,625 --> 05:58:05,995
ms. Rayef: I think that is correct.

4713
05:58:05,995 --> 05:58:10,567
I think it points to the urgency of securing really good

4714
05:58:10,567 --> 05:58:15,367
datasharing agreements in addition to being able to

4715
05:58:15,772 --> 05:58:19,709
confirm somebody tapped their card after taking a waymo trip

4716
05:58:19,709 --> 05:58:24,509
to a metro station. Getting good data transparency

4717
05:58:24,514 --> 05:58:29,914
agreements from waymo or whatever av operator it is,

4718
05:58:30,987 --> 05:58:32,589
sharing trip level data about where these trips are coming

4719
05:58:32,589 --> 05:58:35,324
from and where they are going. Chair allen: could you say more

4720
05:58:35,324 --> 05:58:37,927
about that? What does that look like in

4721
05:58:37,927 --> 05:58:41,130
terms of getting that kind of agreement?

4722
05:58:41,130 --> 05:58:44,266
is it the expectation the trip level data is being shared with

4723
05:58:44,266 --> 05:58:45,668
ddot who is then sharing it with you?

4724
05:58:45,668 --> 05:58:48,437
is it the av sharing it directly?

4725
05:58:48,437 --> 05:58:54,878
ms. Rayef: as an example, my understanding is they share trip

4726
05:58:54,878 --> 05:58:59,615
level data with the department of motor vehicles which shares

4727
05:58:59,615 --> 05:59:04,354
them with ddot. We have an mou with ddot and can

4728
05:59:04,354 --> 05:59:07,423
receive that trip level data. It really informs how we plan

4729
05:59:07,423 --> 05:59:11,293
our service. We have used bill 26-0684 --

4730
05:59:11,293 --> 05:59:19,435
uber and lyft data to model what trips will look like at r.f.k.

4731
05:59:19,435 --> 05:59:24,835
based on what occurs at gametime at the stadium.

4732
05:59:24,974 --> 05:59:32,174
we have also examined use to areas near the yellow and green

4733
05:59:32,314 --> 05:59:35,719
line to help us understand what trips are happening that really

4734
05:59:35,719 --> 05:59:38,788
should be yellow and green line trips.

4735
05:59:38,788 --> 05:59:45,994
we make significant use of the data we got from tnt's to plan

4736
05:59:45,994 --> 05:59:48,731
and adjust our service where needed.

4737
05:59:48,731 --> 05:59:52,201
securing something like that trip level data shared with ddot

4738
05:59:52,201 --> 05:59:56,720
we could access through an mou is important for us to

4739
05:59:56,720 --> 06:00:00,275
understand the impact of av operators on our service.

4740
06:00:00,275 --> 06:00:03,275
chair allen: ok, got it.

4741
06:00:04,246 --> 06:00:08,150
-- chair allen: got it. So building off of that is the

4742
06:00:08,150 --> 06:00:10,486
way to go? >> correct.

4743
06:00:10,486 --> 06:00:15,892
I don't know if ddot is speaking later but there is an issue with

4744
06:00:15,892 --> 06:00:20,396
the level of granularity of data provided by tnc's.

4745
06:00:20,396 --> 06:00:23,500
we would like to see something even more granular so we

4746
06:00:23,500 --> 06:00:29,371
understand someone is taking a trip, not from the plaza area

4747
06:00:29,371 --> 06:00:35,371
but the plaza station exit. Chair allen: that is helpful.

4748
06:00:36,212 --> 06:00:39,515
you made a great point around the message you are making for

4749
06:00:39,515 --> 06:00:45,515
bus riders in transit, everything we do there is to

4750
06:00:45,554 --> 06:00:48,724
move more reliably, save money, save time.

4751
06:00:48,724 --> 06:00:52,661
have you had a chance to see what the experience has been in

4752
06:00:52,661 --> 06:00:55,398
other cities that also have a transit system, none of which

4753
06:00:55,398 --> 06:00:59,735
are nearly as good of -- as hours of course, and running an

4754
06:00:59,735 --> 06:01:02,738
automated vehicle? Are we seeing friction points

4755
06:01:02,738 --> 06:01:06,609
that already exist? Is there something we can point

4756
06:01:06,609 --> 06:01:10,278
to to inform how to draft hours? >> I would have to get back to

4757
06:01:10,278 --> 06:01:13,150
you. We have discussed with other

4758
06:01:13,150 --> 06:01:17,352
transit operators in cities including san francisco their

4759
06:01:17,352 --> 06:01:21,552
experience of operating around autonomous vehicles, primarily

4760
06:01:23,692 --> 06:01:27,292
when av trips replace transit trips.

4761
06:01:29,833 --> 06:01:34,203
they have reported insufficient data about the impacts to their

4762
06:01:34,203 --> 06:01:38,240
service again, another reason why sharing is important, to

4763
06:01:38,240 --> 06:01:42,111
understand the level of interaction between bus service

4764
06:01:42,111 --> 06:01:46,911
and av trips as well as av trips.

4765
06:01:48,584 --> 06:01:51,821
chair allen: that is important to look at.

4766
06:01:51,821 --> 06:01:55,591
we will do everything. My metro trip to work this

4767
06:01:55,591 --> 06:01:59,191
morning was fast, easy, relatively cheap.

4768
06:02:00,290 --> 06:02:01,931
I could count on it and I was here.

4769
06:02:01,931 --> 06:02:08,336
if I had gotten into an uber, lyft, or potential av, it would

4770
06:02:08,336 --> 06:02:11,808
cost more, take longer. I think our transit system is

4771
06:02:11,808 --> 06:02:16,478
the best way to get around so I don't know why it would ever

4772
06:02:16,478 --> 06:02:20,416
replace my trip on transit with an autonomous vehicle.

4773
06:02:20,416 --> 06:02:23,586
it will take more out of my pocket and take longer.

4774
06:02:23,586 --> 06:02:25,822
at the same time we want that data to help show what it looks

4775
06:02:25,822 --> 06:02:30,220
like. So we hear you on that.

4776
06:02:30,793 --> 06:02:32,494
laura miller brooks, thank you for your testimony.

4777
06:02:32,494 --> 06:02:38,534
let me dig in with you a bit. One part of your testimony.

4778
06:02:38,534 --> 06:02:44,506
if I understood you said the vmt could raise costs on low income

4779
06:02:44,506 --> 06:02:46,906
riders taking autonomous vehicles.

4780
06:02:49,478 --> 06:02:55,478
the autonomous vehicle companies are today owned by tesla, owned

4781
06:02:56,118 --> 06:03:00,918
by amazon and alphabet, also known as google.

4782
06:03:03,125 --> 06:03:07,531
I'm not convinced that they are doing all of this because they

4783
06:03:07,531 --> 06:03:10,199
really want to lower costs for riders.

4784
06:03:10,199 --> 06:03:12,602
let's just be honest, there was a lot of money to be made in

4785
06:03:12,602 --> 06:03:15,470
this space. So these are movers looking to

4786
06:03:15,470 --> 06:03:19,609
get into a market, test new technology because they see what

4787
06:03:19,609 --> 06:03:22,211
they think is a strong business plan.

4788
06:03:22,211 --> 06:03:24,480
in addition to solving different transportation problems.

4789
06:03:24,480 --> 06:03:30,353
I think vmt is very important in terms of both being able to help

4790
06:03:30,353 --> 06:03:35,833
focus on a gas tax these fleets would not be paying, but also

4791
06:03:35,833 --> 06:03:40,330
our goal around avoiding deadheading, avoiding other

4792
06:03:40,380 --> 06:03:42,573
costs. Why would I eliminate vmt?

4793
06:03:42,573 --> 06:03:47,446
ms. Brooks: great question. I think your bill does a great

4794
06:03:47,446 --> 06:03:50,915
job stating outfront you are here to help consumer choice for

4795
06:03:50,915 --> 06:03:54,985
the district so our goals are very much aligned in the

4796
06:03:54,985 --> 06:03:58,585
testimony. The vmt as currently written

4797
06:03:59,389 --> 06:04:02,694
would be just for autonomous vehicle trips so you have a lot

4798
06:04:02,694 --> 06:04:06,640
of other trips occurring in the district, private owned

4799
06:04:06,640 --> 06:04:11,464
vehicles, tnc's, deliveries. Personally I think the spirit of

4800
06:04:12,837 --> 06:04:19,543
your vmt capturing the cost of that trip is fair but you would

4801
06:04:19,543 --> 06:04:26,617
want to see that be implemented across the market in a way that

4802
06:04:26,617 --> 06:04:30,154
daniel florez earlier brought up the gas tax, but I think even

4803
06:04:30,154 --> 06:04:34,692
concerns as we look, when you have both the cap and the vmt

4804
06:04:34,692 --> 06:04:41,892
tax, the deadheading question is yet to be seen on how much

4805
06:04:42,766 --> 06:04:46,103
these vehicles have to -- chair allen: I think the cap

4806
06:04:46,103 --> 06:04:50,907
conversation, at least for me, I'm able to hear that

4807
06:04:50,907 --> 06:04:53,845
conversation easier. I think logically it can make

4808
06:04:53,845 --> 06:04:56,647
some sense. We are trying to strike the

4809
06:04:56,647 --> 06:05:02,520
right balance but in terms of, if we say it is a cap of 200 but

4810
06:05:02,520 --> 06:05:05,890
also you have to meet these minimum thresholds, you have to

4811
06:05:05,890 --> 06:05:10,227
have, time has to be equitable across all eight wards.

4812
06:05:10,227 --> 06:05:14,832
I can hear the argument that says you may have the cap too

4813
06:05:14,832 --> 06:05:18,737
low to achieve other policy goals so that will be an area we

4814
06:05:18,737 --> 06:05:21,872
will take a look at following the hearing to say how do you

4815
06:05:21,872 --> 06:05:28,446
strike the right balance. Ms. Brooks: back when I was at

4816
06:05:28,446 --> 06:05:32,490
lime, in the early days of deploying scooters when we had a

4817
06:05:32,490 --> 06:05:34,684
limited fleet of vehicles and trying to get coverage in all

4818
06:05:34,684 --> 06:05:40,625
eight wards and providing a trip, capital bikeshare is even

4819
06:05:40,625 --> 06:05:43,625
more expensive these days than 2018, 2019.

4820
06:05:48,632 --> 06:05:52,350
I agree everybody is here to make money, this is a top tnc

4821
06:05:52,350 --> 06:05:57,774
market for uber lyft. And we are seeing that in san

4822
06:05:57,774 --> 06:06:01,378
francisco so I think the question is, if the goal is

4823
06:06:01,378 --> 06:06:07,118
consumer choice, making sure the vmt tax is applied in a way that

4824
06:06:07,118 --> 06:06:10,588
is both getting to your climate and equity goals but not

4825
06:06:10,588 --> 06:06:13,658
impacting the consumer choice element that is core to the

4826
06:06:13,658 --> 06:06:16,658
bill. Chair allen: thank you.

4827
06:06:17,995 --> 06:06:21,399
mr. Grimes, thank you for your testimony.

4828
06:06:21,399 --> 06:06:27,399
hopefully you heard when I talked to av operators, both

4829
06:06:27,838 --> 06:06:34,438
said when I asked, does your program treat parking in the

4830
06:06:35,379 --> 06:06:39,351
bike lane as you can't do it, it is not allowed, and both said

4831
06:06:39,351 --> 06:06:41,818
yes. That is something we will work

4832
06:06:41,818 --> 06:06:46,824
on to make sure the language in the bill is precise.

4833
06:06:46,824 --> 06:06:50,940
you having your recommendation and it seems consistent with the

4834
06:06:50,940 --> 06:06:54,294
families for safe streets ,tiered escalation approach.

4835
06:06:54,498 --> 06:07:01,906
we had an earlier conversation. If it runs a red light, it is

4836
06:07:01,906 --> 06:07:04,208
not supposed to be programmed to do that.

4837
06:07:04,208 --> 06:07:07,511
so if we see these safety elements or blocking a bike lane

4838
06:07:07,511 --> 06:07:12,183
you want to see a tiered escalation to fix the system so

4839
06:07:12,183 --> 06:07:14,251
it does not happen again or if you are not taking those

4840
06:07:14,251 --> 06:07:16,651
actions, there are [indiscernible]

4841
06:07:16,787 --> 06:07:18,655
risks. Did I hear you correctly when

4842
06:07:18,655 --> 06:07:23,194
you testify to that? Mr. Grimes: excuse me, as I

4843
06:07:23,194 --> 06:07:29,100
answer your question by bringing up a different program or the

4844
06:07:29,100 --> 06:07:30,134
a pilot program with amazon for

4845
06:07:30,134 --> 06:07:36,134
cargo e-quads for last mile delivery out of a distribution

4846
06:07:36,674 --> 06:07:42,346
hub in southwest and wmata has received a number of violation

4847
06:07:42,346 --> 06:07:45,383
notices from residents taking pictures of the vehicles parked

4848
06:07:45,383 --> 06:07:52,390
in bike lanes and weave a very good relationship with ddot, and

4849
06:07:52,390 --> 06:07:55,793
ddot is working with amazon. Part of their pilot agreement is

4850
06:07:55,793 --> 06:07:57,963
they will not have vehicles parked in bike lanes.

4851
06:07:57,963 --> 06:08:04,563
they are doing it anyway. I got around very quickly today

4852
06:08:04,635 --> 06:08:07,238
as you did. I observed a fedex truck parked

4853
06:08:07,238 --> 06:08:12,977
in a bike lane on l street, of course illegally.

4854
06:08:12,977 --> 06:08:15,379
we know these operators do that and will continue to do that.

4855
06:08:15,379 --> 06:08:19,383
we would hate to see another set of operators -- I won't mention

4856
06:08:19,383 --> 06:08:24,783
companies, the ones talking to you today, cavalierly disobey

4857
06:08:25,560 --> 06:08:30,361
the laws they know exist in the name of expediency.

4858
06:08:30,361 --> 06:08:32,396
it is more than just parking and bike lanes were blocking bus

4859
06:08:32,396 --> 06:08:35,996
lanes. It is also occupying commercial

4860
06:08:36,199 --> 06:08:40,999
loading zones. We hear over and over again

4861
06:08:41,772 --> 06:08:43,774
concerns from business improvement districts and

4862
06:08:43,774 --> 06:08:48,278
businesses about the lack of loading solutions, for their

4863
06:08:48,278 --> 06:08:52,616
vehicles to park in bike lanes. We need holistic solutions.

4864
06:08:52,616 --> 06:08:56,210
I'm sorry, you're fully aware of that in your aiming toward. The

4865
06:08:56,210 --> 06:09:00,240
district transportation needs we need especially to make sure

4866
06:09:00,240 --> 06:09:02,359
new operations cannot degrade the situation.

4867
06:09:02,359 --> 06:09:08,132
yes, tiered enforcement, you know how to implement that, as

4868
06:09:08,132 --> 06:09:11,732
does ddot. Chair allen: thank you.

4869
06:09:12,370 --> 06:09:17,170
real fast, ms. Adams, your recommendation on pedestrian

4870
06:09:18,442 --> 06:09:22,379
intent interfaces, can you just say a little more about an

4871
06:09:22,379 --> 06:09:26,985
example of what that means and then I will turn to

4872
06:09:26,985 --> 06:09:30,988
councilmember lewis george. Ms. Adams: that would be

4873
06:09:30,988 --> 06:09:36,988
something similar to, while we do currently have walk signs.

4874
06:09:38,162 --> 06:09:43,542
if there were some sort of integration in av's that were

4875
06:09:43,542 --> 06:09:47,477
keywords like pedestrians crossing, for example, at the

4876
06:09:47,477 --> 06:09:51,677
barn dance at seventh and aphis street.

4877
06:09:52,682 --> 06:09:57,220
if there was some sort of warning that says the barn

4878
06:09:57,220 --> 06:10:02,693
dance. Is in effect ava -- av's in all directions

4879
06:10:02,693 --> 06:10:06,300
must stop. There needs to be some sort of

4880
06:10:06,300 --> 06:10:11,301
interfacing between the av's and whatever the hub is that would

4881
06:10:11,301 --> 06:10:18,501
be in that area to just provide some sort of notification that

4882
06:10:18,510 --> 06:10:24,480
this is a pedestrian crossing, it is stopping traffic in all

4883
06:10:24,480 --> 06:10:26,480
directions, including diagonally.

4884
06:10:26,500 --> 06:10:32,456
and that there is some type of mechanism indicating to all.

4885
06:10:32,456 --> 06:10:39,656
for example, if there were four robotaxis on seventh and h on

4886
06:10:43,670 --> 06:10:48,539
all four intersections, if they are all there at the same time

4887
06:10:48,539 --> 06:10:54,378
there is an interfacing that lets people know there are four

4888
06:10:54,378 --> 06:10:57,882
robotaxis in place that must stop when pedestrians are all

4889
06:10:57,882 --> 06:11:02,720
crossing at one time. For example, the barn dance at h

4890
06:11:02,720 --> 06:11:08,920
and 7th street. There would be some sort of

4891
06:11:08,920 --> 06:11:13,492
mechanism, and some type of keywords that these robotaxis

4892
06:11:14,966 --> 06:11:20,370
are being programmed with that lets them know in that specific

4893
06:11:20,370 --> 06:11:24,576
area, it is pedestrian-dense and there is a barn dance there.

4894
06:11:24,576 --> 06:11:28,776
chair allen: thank you. Councilmember lewis george,

4895
06:11:29,312 --> 06:11:31,248
welcome back. Councilmember lewis-george:

4896
06:11:31,248 --> 06:11:33,500
thank you. I want to start with wmata.

4897
06:11:33,500 --> 06:11:37,850
is it ms.rayef? Thank you so much.

4898
06:11:41,525 --> 06:11:44,795
how does wmata view its relationship with autonomous

4899
06:11:44,795 --> 06:11:49,595
vehicles? Ms. Rayef: I think we see the

4900
06:11:50,735 --> 06:11:53,837
district is a place with a lot of different mobility needs and

4901
06:11:53,837 --> 06:11:56,273
see ourselves as part of a tapestry of mobility solutions

4902
06:11:56,273 --> 06:12:02,273
in the region including cars, rideshare, bikeshare and so on.

4903
06:12:03,447 --> 06:12:10,488
our chief interest is in making sure av trips do not replace

4904
06:12:10,488 --> 06:12:14,424
transit trips and we don't see significant declines in

4905
06:12:14,424 --> 06:12:16,226
ridership and increases in congestion that make it harder

4906
06:12:16,226 --> 06:12:22,233
to run our bus service. That is why we want good data

4907
06:12:22,233 --> 06:12:23,366
about where av trips are happening, the extent to which

4908
06:12:23,366 --> 06:12:27,171
they are running along our rail lines, our major bus lines.

4909
06:12:27,171 --> 06:12:30,642
and it is why we want good assurances from the av operators

4910
06:12:30,642 --> 06:12:36,180
they will provide strict laws that keep cars out of our bus

4911
06:12:36,180 --> 06:12:39,183
lanes and away from our bus stops.

4912
06:12:39,183 --> 06:12:42,152
that is super important because the quality of our bus service,

4913
06:12:42,152 --> 06:12:46,390
which we are constantly working to improve, is completely

4914
06:12:46,390 --> 06:12:49,326
dependent on how congested our streets are and the extent to

4915
06:12:49,326 --> 06:12:51,661
which our buses have clear lanes and clear bus stops in which to

4916
06:12:51,661 --> 06:12:56,401
operate. And when we have cars that block

4917
06:12:56,401 --> 06:12:59,337
bus lanes and bus stops which happens all the time, we get

4918
06:12:59,337 --> 06:13:05,937
bunching and delays, and at our bus stops in particular when

4919
06:13:06,476 --> 06:13:09,346
stopped by vehicles they can't get to the curbside which makes

4920
06:13:09,346 --> 06:13:13,584
it impossible for the drivers to lower the ramp, the wheelchair

4921
06:13:13,584 --> 06:13:19,890
ramp, for a wheelchair user or a stroller pusher, or anybody who

4922
06:13:19,890 --> 06:13:23,260
needs the smooth transition onto the bus, can't get onto the bus

4923
06:13:23,260 --> 06:13:27,231
anymore. Making sure all cars stay out of

4924
06:13:27,231 --> 06:13:29,299
our bus lanes and bus stops is a chief priority.

4925
06:13:29,299 --> 06:13:35,171
councilmember lewis-george: with that, as we agreed in our line

4926
06:13:35,171 --> 06:13:37,440
on continuing to strengthen our bus network in the district, how

4927
06:13:37,440 --> 06:13:42,579
does wmata see itself working aggressively to protecting our

4928
06:13:42,579 --> 06:13:48,519
dedicated bus lanes and insuring those projects are successful in

4929
06:13:48,519 --> 06:13:50,254
making our public transit the fastest and most reliable way to

4930
06:13:50,254 --> 06:13:51,989
move around the district and region?

4931
06:13:51,989 --> 06:13:58,589
ms. Rayef: the council has been an amazing partner in providing

4932
06:13:58,796 --> 06:14:01,650
resources for us to improve our bus service and we know we have

4933
06:14:01,650 --> 06:14:06,936
a lot of friends on counsel who want to burp -- council who want

4934
06:14:06,936 --> 06:14:12,209
to provide us the resources. A program which enables us to

4935
06:14:12,209 --> 06:14:17,981
use cameras on our buses to supply tickets to drivers

4936
06:14:17,981 --> 06:14:21,151
locking our bus lanes is an essential provision that allows

4937
06:14:21,151 --> 06:14:27,751
us to enforce our bus lanes and something enabled by legislation

4938
06:14:28,825 --> 06:14:34,300
which really is essential to those bus lanes making a

4939
06:14:34,300 --> 06:14:38,168
difference for bus riders. Councilmember lewis-george: is

4940
06:14:38,168 --> 06:14:41,500
wmata planning on experimenting with autonomous vehicle

4941
06:14:41,500 --> 06:14:43,400
technology in the metrobus, metro access or maintenance

4942
06:14:43,400 --> 06:14:46,420
piece? Ms. Rayef: I can't speak to

4943
06:14:46,420 --> 06:14:52,420
that, but can get back to you. Councilmember lewis-george: is

4944
06:14:53,250 --> 06:14:57,655
there any things the council can ensure as part of this

4945
06:14:57,655 --> 06:15:01,726
legislation will ensure some of the data collection necessary

4946
06:15:01,726 --> 06:15:06,526
for wmata to continue to achieve its goals?

4947
06:15:07,531 --> 06:15:12,203
ms. Rayef: I think ensuring the data collection provisions, the

4948
06:15:12,203 --> 06:15:18,803
data required to be shared with ddot, making sure that is

4949
06:15:18,876 --> 06:15:21,880
airtight and really provides a granular information such that

4950
06:15:21,880 --> 06:15:27,551
we can see if a trip is ending, not in southern dupont circle,

4951
06:15:27,551 --> 06:15:32,556
but on a specific corner, so we understand exactly where trip is

4952
06:15:32,556 --> 06:15:37,956
beginning and ending and what curbside use looks like.

4953
06:15:39,396 --> 06:15:44,796
that is essential central and ensuring the information is

4954
06:15:45,235 --> 06:15:47,304
protective of privacy while also being sufficiently useful.

4955
06:15:47,304 --> 06:15:51,175
councilmember lewis-george: thank you, I appreciate that.

4956
06:15:51,175 --> 06:15:56,585
mr. Grimes, thank you for speaking about the issues with

4957
06:15:56,585 --> 06:15:59,188
vehicles parked in bike lanes. I know you spoke a little about

4958
06:15:59,188 --> 06:16:05,188
the tiered approach. I also wanted to make sure some

4959
06:16:05,994 --> 06:16:12,401
of the concerns we have heard from pedestrians about ways we

4960
06:16:12,401 --> 06:16:15,870
can continue as a district to ensure both our pedestrians and

4961
06:16:15,870 --> 06:16:22,543
bikes are able to continue to be the primary users of roadways

4962
06:16:22,543 --> 06:16:28,216
and prioritized in safety. Mr. Grimes: thank you p would as

4963
06:16:28,216 --> 06:16:34,156
I mentioned at the start of my testimony, they aim to make sure

4964
06:16:34,156 --> 06:16:38,956
those who are walking -- they operate extensively.

4965
06:16:39,561 --> 06:16:44,961
we are sensitive to concerns about bicyclists on sidewalks

4966
06:16:45,167 --> 06:16:47,302
outside of the central business district.

4967
06:16:47,302 --> 06:16:53,902
it is undesirable that bikes, especially as we get more bike

4968
06:16:53,975 --> 06:16:55,710
riders on sidewalks and scooters we need a separation of

4969
06:16:55,710 --> 06:16:59,248
infrastructure. One of my key messages is we

4970
06:16:59,248 --> 06:17:04,480
appreciate innovation in all forms includng the introduction

4971
06:17:04,453 --> 06:17:08,924
of autonomous vehicles, but have to ensure there is continued,

4972
06:17:08,924 --> 06:17:11,593
sufficient, robust funding for infrastructure improvements that

4973
06:17:11,593 --> 06:17:16,993
support transit, that support walking, and use of mobility

4974
06:17:17,899 --> 06:17:21,336
devices, and the support bicycling that separate

4975
06:17:21,336 --> 06:17:23,972
different modes appropriately across the district.

4976
06:17:23,972 --> 06:17:26,340
enforcement is important but design of infrastructure is

4977
06:17:26,340 --> 06:17:28,340
essential. Councilmember lewis-george:

4978
06:17:31,790 --> 06:17:35,751
laura, I spoke a little earlier on the first panel about how --

4979
06:17:35,751 --> 06:17:40,288
there are things we can do as a city and things we must do

4980
06:17:40,288 --> 06:17:45,880
regionally in order for this to be successful.

4981
06:17:45,761 --> 06:17:52,267
what would have to happen on a regional level for us to be

4982
06:17:52,267 --> 06:17:55,503
successful in moving towards this happening in the d.c. Area?

4983
06:17:55,503 --> 06:18:01,760
ms. Brooks: great question. The city council is focused on

4984
06:18:01,760 --> 06:18:03,445
the district and federal relationship.

4985
06:18:03,445 --> 06:18:08,116
this is a great opportunity because virginia rail did not

4986
06:18:08,116 --> 06:18:14,923
pass legislation this year and also for us to set the standard

4987
06:18:14,923 --> 06:18:18,794
with the areas where we can for a working, productive

4988
06:18:18,794 --> 06:18:21,794
relationship with the federal government.

4989
06:18:23,965 --> 06:18:25,867
there is expressed interest here.

4990
06:18:25,867 --> 06:18:31,720
the district being proactive, taking the opportunity to show

4991
06:18:31,720 --> 06:18:34,900
we understand all the externalities that might be

4992
06:18:34,900 --> 06:18:37,813
risks and show how we and our incredible staff are able to

4993
06:18:37,813 --> 06:18:42,784
overcome that, work with our transit agency and set the

4994
06:18:42,784 --> 06:18:45,354
standard is a huge opportunity for setting the benchmark for

4995
06:18:45,354 --> 06:18:46,555
the region. There is coordination with

4996
06:18:46,555 --> 06:18:49,555
airports. Obviously that is something

4997
06:18:49,558 --> 06:18:53,362
councilmember allen noted, but there are other ways in which

4998
06:18:53,362 --> 06:19:00,836
the region -- I think cog has been focused on how to cultivate

4999
06:19:00,836 --> 06:19:04,436
jurisdictional conversations that happened once state-level

5000
06:19:05,410 --> 06:19:10,178
legislation is passed. D.c. Being both a state in a

5001
06:19:10,178 --> 06:19:14,382
city and having the federal apparatus where we can make that

5002
06:19:14,382 --> 06:19:18,654
proactive is a unique moment. I'm excited this registration

5003
06:19:18,654 --> 06:19:21,590
rises to that opportunity. Councilmember lewis-george: what

5004
06:19:21,590 --> 06:19:25,260
is the federal landscape regarding this technology and

5005
06:19:25,260 --> 06:19:28,626
legislation? Where does the federal city

5006
06:19:29,364 --> 06:19:32,535
council see both democrats and republicans in the house and

5007
06:19:32,535 --> 06:19:33,268
senate fall on the issue currently?

5008
06:19:33,268 --> 06:19:37,730
ms. Brooks: I'm not an expert and I can get back to you on

5009
06:19:37,730 --> 06:19:40,609
that but I will say, what I'm aware of and conversations were

5010
06:19:40,609 --> 06:19:47,809
this is come up, that I have been part of, usdmt is

5011
06:19:48,350 --> 06:19:50,418
incredibly interested in this. Secretary duffy mentioned this

5012
06:19:50,418 --> 06:19:55,910
in his hearing. This continues to be an issue

5013
06:19:55,910 --> 06:19:57,359
that house oversight republicans are aware of.

5014
06:19:57,359 --> 06:20:01,930
so if there is a world in which this could be a productive olive

5015
06:20:01,930 --> 06:20:03,732
branch to the federal government in a world where they are

5016
06:20:03,732 --> 06:20:07,702
looking at taking away red light cameras, and we could talk about

5017
06:20:07,702 --> 06:20:11,573
automation in a productive way, and keeping some of the many

5018
06:20:11,573 --> 06:20:14,776
ways in which we are using automated enforcement to clear

5019
06:20:14,776 --> 06:20:19,247
bus lanes, to keep roads safe, this is an opportunity to

5020
06:20:19,247 --> 06:20:24,252
proactively meet them where we are seeing negative movement

5021
06:20:24,252 --> 06:20:25,354
from congressional stakeholders on other issues.

5022
06:20:25,354 --> 06:20:27,754
councilmember lewis-george: thank you.

5023
06:20:28,323 --> 06:20:33,595
chair allen: thank you everybody for your testimony on this

5024
06:20:33,595 --> 06:20:37,795
panel. Next I will move to panel 10,

5025
06:20:41,403 --> 06:20:46,803
colin mortimer from dmv new liberals joining us online.

5026
06:20:47,676 --> 06:20:52,981
alex baca d.c. Policy director with greater greater washington.

5027
06:20:52,981 --> 06:20:54,617
margaret durkin, executive director for pennsylvania and

5028
06:20:54,617 --> 06:20:57,617
the mid-atlantic region with technet.

5029
06:20:58,153 --> 06:21:01,153
and david alpert, public witness.

5030
06:21:17,939 --> 06:21:23,939
going to go ahead because I have two empty seats.

5031
06:21:30,752 --> 06:21:34,455
david zipper, public witness and colleen hawkinson, executive

5032
06:21:34,455 --> 06:21:37,726
director of the d.c. Bid council pair would I will pull you up

5033
06:21:37,726 --> 06:21:43,726
because I have two seats. Colin mortimer, why don't you

5034
06:21:45,468 --> 06:21:49,370
kick us off, then we will go to alex baca, margaret durkin and

5035
06:21:49,370 --> 06:21:56,237
then -- and colleen after that. >> my name is colin mortimer and

5036
06:21:57,145 --> 06:22:00,347
I'm testifying on behalf of the dmv new liberals.

5037
06:22:00,347 --> 06:22:05,890
where the washington area chapter of pragmatic liberal

5038
06:22:05,890 --> 06:22:07,925
neighbors across the district, maryland and virginia organizing

5039
06:22:07,925 --> 06:22:11,128
for innovation, growth, safety and cities built for people.

5040
06:22:11,128 --> 06:22:14,966
thank you for moving this bill in a fraud political moment and

5041
06:22:14,966 --> 06:22:16,967
for sitting through nine hours of testimony to do it.

5042
06:22:16,967 --> 06:22:21,105
we testify today in strong support of bill bill 26-0684

5043
06:22:21,105 --> 06:22:25,305
with two amendments raising the 200 vehicle cap.

5044
06:22:29,146 --> 06:22:33,551
san francisco is served by 1000 and moving the january 2028

5045
06:22:33,551 --> 06:22:35,519
launch date ahead. We don't need to speculate on

5046
06:22:35,519 --> 06:22:39,690
how safe waymo is or other autonomous vehicles.

5047
06:22:39,690 --> 06:22:43,326
in the vast majority of situations waymo has proven to

5048
06:22:43,326 --> 06:22:44,795
be safe, reliable and predictable.

5049
06:22:44,795 --> 06:22:50,795
waymo has driven over 170 miles behind the wheel, fewer crashes

5050
06:22:54,671 --> 06:22:56,740
than human drivers and larger reduction still for pedestrians

5051
06:22:56,740 --> 06:23:00,410
and cyclists. The last technology with this

5052
06:23:00,410 --> 06:23:04,548
potential to bend the curve on road safety was the airbag which

5053
06:23:04,548 --> 06:23:08,850
saved 50,000 american lives. In the past five years more than

5054
06:23:08,850 --> 06:23:10,880
200 people have died on district streets paired rarely does the

5055
06:23:10,880 --> 06:23:14,250
council have the opportunity to vote on a bill that will save so

5056
06:23:14,250 --> 06:23:18,362
many lives, and prevent so many deaths in the future, like the

5057
06:23:18,362 --> 06:23:20,464
ones we have suffered in recent years.

5058
06:23:20,464 --> 06:23:25,864
I my daily capital bikeshare rider, on connecticut avenue

5059
06:23:26,436 --> 06:23:29,730
every day. Still waiting for my bike lane

5060
06:23:29,730 --> 06:23:34,345
and I want to thank the council and chairman allen for making

5061
06:23:34,345 --> 06:23:38,315
cyclists such an important part of the conversation and ensuring

5062
06:23:38,315 --> 06:23:40,318
autonomous vehicles can continue to prioritize cyclists.

5063
06:23:40,318 --> 06:23:46,123
at the end of the day I've cycled in los angeles, san

5064
06:23:46,123 --> 06:23:48,793
francisco, I've seen how autonomous vehicles interact

5065
06:23:48,793 --> 06:23:53,531
around me and how human drivers interact around me on

5066
06:23:53,531 --> 06:23:56,200
connecticut avenue each day paradise he people changing

5067
06:23:56,200 --> 06:23:59,137
lanes without signaling, making illegal turns on red, watching

5068
06:23:59,137 --> 06:24:02,140
youtube videos will driving. This all happened last week, by

5069
06:24:02,140 --> 06:24:05,409
the way. Driver errors and distracted

5070
06:24:05,409 --> 06:24:08,412
driving of the reason people die on the road and waymo doesn't do

5071
06:24:08,412 --> 06:24:12,612
that. Yes last fall waymo passed a

5072
06:24:12,883 --> 06:24:15,353
school bus in boston and we have seen unfortunate incidents

5073
06:24:15,353 --> 06:24:18,556
across the country but with waymo we are able to do updates,

5074
06:24:18,556 --> 06:24:22,226
train the cars to do better, ensure mistakes never happen

5075
06:24:22,226 --> 06:24:25,226
again. Autonomous vehicles can be

5076
06:24:27,364 --> 06:24:28,966
regulated like airplanes were one mistake ensures similar

5077
06:24:28,966 --> 06:24:32,770
incidents never happen again. Airplanes are far and away the

5078
06:24:32,770 --> 06:24:35,600
safest way to travel in the entire world.

5079
06:24:35,600 --> 06:24:37,441
we can do the same with automobiles.

5080
06:24:37,441 --> 06:24:42,646
on jobs it is somewhat of an ironic stroke of luck that 14

5081
06:24:42,646 --> 06:24:46,918
years ago to the day the council had the uber amendment to

5082
06:24:46,918 --> 06:24:49,353
protect taxi drivers from rideshare.

5083
06:24:49,353 --> 06:24:53,124
now we're being asked to protect rideshare from what comes next.

5084
06:24:53,124 --> 06:24:56,610
we didn't band the automobile to save the stable hands, we built

5085
06:24:56,610 --> 06:24:59,263
better jobs on top of it. This next leap forward will be

5086
06:24:59,263 --> 06:25:05,300
no different in this bill fund ensures displaced workers will

5087
06:25:05,300 --> 06:25:06,605
receive more protection than they ever had for any

5088
06:25:06,605 --> 06:25:10,541
technological innovation before. Autonomous vehicles are cutting

5089
06:25:10,541 --> 06:25:14,277
into this region come of this bill decides whether they arrive

5090
06:25:14,277 --> 06:25:17,548
on the district's terms. One day I think we will look

5091
06:25:17,548 --> 06:25:22,319
back on humans piloting two tons of steel the same way we look

5092
06:25:22,319 --> 06:25:25,220
back on the frequency of airplane crashes in the mid-20th

5093
06:25:25,220 --> 06:25:29,894
century. I am for this bill and I'm open

5094
06:25:29,894 --> 06:25:31,562
to any questions or follow-ups you may have.

5095
06:25:31,562 --> 06:25:34,633
thank you. Chair allen: thank you.

5096
06:25:34,633 --> 06:25:39,433
let me turn to alex baca. Good afternoon.

5097
06:25:40,104 --> 06:25:43,507
ms.baca: good afternoon, thank you for having me.

5098
06:25:43,507 --> 06:25:47,179
I'm speaking on behalf of greater greater washington where

5099
06:25:47,179 --> 06:25:51,783
I serve as policy director. We find this flawed in its

5100
06:25:51,783 --> 06:25:55,853
conceptualization of the means by which the district should

5101
06:25:55,853 --> 06:25:59,458
regulate for higher autonomous vehicles and do not think it

5102
06:25:59,458 --> 06:26:01,858
mitigates their negative externalities.

5103
06:26:02,325 --> 06:26:04,195
the bill puts the department of transportation in charge of

5104
06:26:04,195 --> 06:26:08,465
regulation of av's. I understand why to this

5105
06:26:08,465 --> 06:26:13,137
committee it is an advantage. Should this bill pass here you

5106
06:26:13,137 --> 06:26:14,605
get to be the committee jurisdiction.

5107
06:26:14,605 --> 06:26:19,677
I know this is a salient issue, a lot of prominent commentators

5108
06:26:19,677 --> 06:26:21,746
have said a lot about how we need to do something about this

5109
06:26:21,746 --> 06:26:26,717
as soon as possible lest we stifle innovation in private

5110
06:26:26,717 --> 06:26:28,419
industry but no operator is suggesting personal autonomous

5111
06:26:28,419 --> 06:26:32,220
vehicles are immediately forthcoming paired the matter at

5112
06:26:32,220 --> 06:26:37,422
hand is one of carriers for higher --for hire.

5113
06:26:37,861 --> 06:26:41,832
we struggle to see a compelling reason for assigning av's to

5114
06:26:41,832 --> 06:26:46,632
ddot. The district is on the back foot

5115
06:26:47,237 --> 06:26:50,837
with tnc's. Uber begged cities for

5116
06:26:52,643 --> 06:26:56,843
permission rather than from permission to operate.

5117
06:26:57,448 --> 06:27:00,785
we were in this room talking about this with other folks as

5118
06:27:00,785 --> 06:27:04,189
well. We are running back the tape a

5119
06:27:04,189 --> 06:27:09,126
little bit in a bizarre way I never expected.

5120
06:27:09,126 --> 06:27:15,640
but right now the district does not require tnc's to identify

5121
06:27:15,640 --> 06:27:19,336
operators or share real-time data and do not have to complete

5122
06:27:19,336 --> 06:27:23,730
safety checks. On light taxis, their fares are

5123
06:27:23,730 --> 06:27:25,875
not regulated and their fleets do not have to require

5124
06:27:25,875 --> 06:27:29,346
wheelchair accessible vehicles. There is the process of

5125
06:27:29,346 --> 06:27:33,617
appraising whether this system is serving residents and

5126
06:27:33,617 --> 06:27:35,953
visitors. Meantime autonomous vehicles and

5127
06:27:35,953 --> 06:27:39,423
their operators are stepping in to generous breach.

5128
06:27:39,423 --> 06:27:45,963
more importantly to us as urbanists, av's are just cars in

5129
06:27:45,963 --> 06:27:49,967
the district is not good at managing cars regardless of who

5130
06:27:49,967 --> 06:27:53,704
or what is driving them and that makes this the worse place to

5131
06:27:53,704 --> 06:27:56,574
visit and travel. Congestion makes this last

5132
06:27:56,574 --> 06:28:01,945
result -- reliable and safe. Those who drive when they could

5133
06:28:01,945 --> 06:28:04,516
take transit, walk or bike make it harder for those who need to

5134
06:28:04,516 --> 06:28:07,985
drive or be driven. We have advocated for fewer

5135
06:28:07,985 --> 06:28:13,385
trips by car since2008. District policy and politics is

5136
06:28:13,609 --> 06:28:17,209
not that divergent from my stance.

5137
06:28:18,547 --> 06:28:21,840
no candidate for office here in response to a questionnaire has

5138
06:28:21,840 --> 06:28:24,720
ever indicated they would like more trips by car.

5139
06:28:24,720 --> 06:28:26,856
av's will result in more trips by car.

5140
06:28:26,856 --> 06:28:32,256
the district's report recommends road pricing as an antidote.

5141
06:28:34,363 --> 06:28:40,302
we wished there had been an opportunity during fy 27 budget

5142
06:28:40,302 --> 06:28:43,902
negotiations for options including road pricing.

5143
06:28:44,340 --> 06:28:47,430
without a holistic understanding of how curbside management,

5144
06:28:47,430 --> 06:28:50,880
parking and road access policies can work together, not

5145
06:28:50,880 --> 06:28:54,517
necessarily solely to contribute to the district coffers but make

5146
06:28:54,517 --> 06:28:59,555
sure the environment is a safe, healthy and enjoyable one.

5147
06:28:59,555 --> 06:29:02,580
my testimony includes some asks, but none as specific as we have

5148
06:29:02,580 --> 06:29:06,858
heard fromatu, the trial lawyers and excellent witnesses

5149
06:29:07,195 --> 06:29:11,734
on panel. I do defer to them as well to

5150
06:29:11,734 --> 06:29:14,200
d.c. Families for safe streets and want to reaffirm what they

5151
06:29:14,200 --> 06:29:18,202
have to say. Ultimately, and I appreciate

5152
06:29:19,409 --> 06:29:23,279
councilmember allen recognizing this in your opening remarks,

5153
06:29:23,279 --> 06:29:26,382
there is not a need to rush to pass legislation, regulating

5154
06:29:26,382 --> 06:29:30,519
av's. I do want to urge we enable

5155
06:29:30,519 --> 06:29:33,822
broad regulatory powers that allow the district to pivot as

5156
06:29:33,822 --> 06:29:36,822
needed when new pressures emerge.

5157
06:29:38,694 --> 06:29:44,940
I don't think concerns today were anti-av or anti-innovation.

5158
06:29:45,634 --> 06:29:49,834
it is broadly understood av's are coming.

5159
06:29:51,507 --> 06:29:58,107
this is a fast-changing space. We did not get tmc regulations

5160
06:29:58,114 --> 06:30:02,384
perfect in 2012 and have taken time before visiting them.

5161
06:30:02,384 --> 06:30:08,984
legislation passed so we can see that av's are operating here

5162
06:30:09,158 --> 06:30:11,259
sooner is not likely to age well.

5163
06:30:11,259 --> 06:30:14,530
cars regardless of driven by people or robots may benefit

5164
06:30:14,530 --> 06:30:18,400
some but they are to the -- they are not to the public good and

5165
06:30:18,400 --> 06:30:19,267
we need fewer of them in the district.

5166
06:30:19,267 --> 06:30:22,867
chair allen: thank you. >> good afternoon.

5167
06:30:25,741 --> 06:30:28,944
my name is margaret durkin, I'm the mid-atlantic executive

5168
06:30:28,944 --> 06:30:32,800
director for technet. Thank you for allowing me the

5169
06:30:32,800 --> 06:30:35,680
opportunity to speak on bill 26-0684.

5170
06:30:35,851 --> 06:30:40,510
we believe autonomous vehicles bring tremendous societal

5171
06:30:41,891 --> 06:30:44,761
benefits and provide access to transportation for those with

5172
06:30:44,761 --> 06:30:46,729
disabilities or those who can drive themselves.

5173
06:30:46,729 --> 06:30:51,566
I will note technet is a membership organization so we

5174
06:30:51,566 --> 06:30:56,138
have a sizable amount of members in the autonomous vehicle space

5175
06:30:56,138 --> 06:30:59,742
and concerns in speaking on today are those I've been made

5176
06:30:59,742 --> 06:31:02,377
aware of. First and foremost we are

5177
06:31:02,377 --> 06:31:04,781
concerned about the high application fees.

5178
06:31:04,781 --> 06:31:09,500
the bill as drafted has a one million-dollar initial permit

5179
06:31:09,500 --> 06:31:15,650
fee with a $500,000 subsequent fee as well as a post approval

5180
06:31:15,858 --> 06:31:19,795
500 fee. This is out of step with other

5181
06:31:19,795 --> 06:31:23,395
states that enacted authorizing av legislation.

5182
06:31:24,660 --> 06:31:27,666
california charges $3600 for testing application and $3275

5183
06:31:33,175 --> 06:31:35,911
for deployment application. In new york city the annual fee

5184
06:31:35,911 --> 06:31:39,348
is $5,000. We believe these high fees will

5185
06:31:39,348 --> 06:31:42,952
set a harmful precedent and discourage av investment and

5186
06:31:42,952 --> 06:31:46,722
deployment in the district. We are also concerned about the

5187
06:31:46,722 --> 06:31:51,626
prohibition on permitees and customers agreeing to real and

5188
06:31:51,626 --> 06:31:55,231
potential liability as a condition for service.

5189
06:31:55,231 --> 06:31:58,300
prohibiting arbitration agreements would be a first in

5190
06:31:58,300 --> 06:32:03,700
the nation requirement and lead to potential costly litigation.

5191
06:32:04,506 --> 06:32:07,309
regarding accident reporting environment -- requirements we

5192
06:32:07,309 --> 06:32:10,779
believe the eight hour window is burdensome.

5193
06:32:10,779 --> 06:32:16,518
our members are required to report crashes to the national

5194
06:32:16,518 --> 06:32:18,586
highway traffic safety administration per their

5195
06:32:18,586 --> 06:32:22,590
standing general order and this bill requires the submission and

5196
06:32:22,590 --> 06:32:27,990
we believe it is adequate and interoperable with other

5197
06:32:28,997 --> 06:32:30,934
jurisdictions. We request this eight hour

5198
06:32:30,934 --> 06:32:33,302
window of reporting in the bill be removed.

5199
06:32:33,302 --> 06:32:37,506
regarding rules and the bill we believe rules in any

5200
06:32:37,506 --> 06:32:40,476
jurisdiction can run far afield of the underlying statutes and

5201
06:32:40,476 --> 06:32:45,347
request provision to promulgate rules and regulations be removed

5202
06:32:45,347 --> 06:32:47,616
. Finally the proposed vehicle

5203
06:32:47,616 --> 06:32:50,616
miles traveled tax, $.15 per mile.

5204
06:32:50,886 --> 06:32:56,886
technet as an organization works to ensure tax structures create

5205
06:32:58,270 --> 06:33:02,364
a level playing field I miss $.15 tax on commercial av

5206
06:33:02,364 --> 06:33:06,435
operators will place a non-very burden on a merging industry in

5207
06:33:06,435 --> 06:33:09,437
the district. Thank you for your time and I'm

5208
06:33:09,437 --> 06:33:12,442
happy to take any questions. Chair allen: thank you very

5209
06:33:12,442 --> 06:33:15,779
much. David alpert I don't believe he

5210
06:33:15,779 --> 06:33:18,947
is here so if you can join us later we will bring him to eyed

5211
06:33:18,947 --> 06:33:23,147
other -- another panel. >> good afternoon, chairman

5212
06:33:24,454 --> 06:33:25,587
allen and members of the committee.

5213
06:33:25,587 --> 06:33:29,659
thank you for allowing me to speak him I'm the president and

5214
06:33:29,659 --> 06:33:33,859
ceo of the navy improvement district business.

5215
06:33:34,730 --> 06:33:37,666
thank you for allowing me to testify.

5216
06:33:37,666 --> 06:33:41,137
I will not read the text of my testimony that I will submit, I

5217
06:33:41,137 --> 06:33:44,806
will just speak to a couple points I wanted to share in this

5218
06:33:44,806 --> 06:33:47,209
discussion. I will start with, the district

5219
06:33:47,209 --> 06:33:50,880
has a long history of maintaining strong public

5220
06:33:50,880 --> 06:33:54,480
oversight. Through leadership of ddot and

5221
06:33:55,830 --> 06:33:59,283
other agencies, successful partnerships for delivery, and

5222
06:34:00,956 --> 06:34:03,956
transportation infrastructure, systems and services.

5223
06:34:06,395 --> 06:34:10,965
car sharing and bike sharing, the nation's largest smart curb

5224
06:34:10,965 --> 06:34:13,769
management. They have improved quality of

5225
06:34:13,769 --> 06:34:18,941
life in the district. I believe av's can be the next

5226
06:34:18,941 --> 06:34:21,777
chapter in that tradition. In my opinion the relevant

5227
06:34:21,777 --> 06:34:26,732
question is not whether or not av technology is coming because

5228
06:34:26,732 --> 06:34:28,467
it is already here. The question is whether the

5229
06:34:28,467 --> 06:34:34,139
district can help shape it in a way that advances safety,

5230
06:34:34,139 --> 06:34:35,607
equity, accessibility and public benefit.

5231
06:34:35,607 --> 06:34:39,944
I support this bill because it takes a measured and thoughtful

5232
06:34:39,944 --> 06:34:43,582
approach and establishes a phased deployment strategy,

5233
06:34:43,582 --> 06:34:47,219
requires planning and safety provisions to ensure equitable

5234
06:34:47,219 --> 06:34:51,157
access across all eight wards for residents with disabilities

5235
06:34:51,157 --> 06:34:54,159
and recognizes the importance of supporting public transit and

5236
06:34:54,159 --> 06:34:58,960
helping workers adapt to changes in the transportation sector I

5237
06:34:58,960 --> 06:35:03,496
would further encourage ddot to leverage a partnership first

5238
06:35:03,568 --> 06:35:09,341
created by the southwest bid and now in part with the navy yard

5239
06:35:09,341 --> 06:35:14,741
to become a national testbed for new technology, public-private

5240
06:35:14,847 --> 06:35:16,850
partnerships and services. We have been doing that for

5241
06:35:16,850 --> 06:35:21,586
several years and stand ready to partner with the city when you

5242
06:35:21,586 --> 06:35:26,258
move forward with this. The bid can help the district

5243
06:35:26,258 --> 06:35:31,658
compare and evaluate outcomes, service equity and impacts on

5244
06:35:32,364 --> 06:35:36,735
congestion which can lead to smarter policy decisions at the

5245
06:35:36,735 --> 06:35:40,335
beginning and as we make changes .

5246
06:35:40,673 --> 06:35:45,477
finally as a former ddot director I want to offer this

5247
06:35:45,477 --> 06:35:49,800
perspective, for services that touch district residents,

5248
06:35:49,800 --> 06:35:55,800
education is essential and key. I will share some perspectives

5249
06:35:56,321 --> 06:36:00,360
today reflect the we have not told people about this

5250
06:36:00,360 --> 06:36:03,163
experience enough. I encourage you to do that not

5251
06:36:03,163 --> 06:36:08,834
only for public officials, for city agencies, but for the

5252
06:36:08,834 --> 06:36:10,637
users, employees, future employees and anybody who will

5253
06:36:10,637 --> 06:36:14,540
be impacted by this. It is coming and we need to

5254
06:36:14,540 --> 06:36:18,176
explain to people how it works, how it doesn't work, things to

5255
06:36:18,176 --> 06:36:20,980
be concerned about and things we have data and factor support

5256
06:36:20,980 --> 06:36:26,980
whether or not it works. Av technology is new, very

5257
06:36:27,520 --> 06:36:33,520
different and it will be disruptive to the status quo.

5258
06:36:33,726 --> 06:36:37,620
education engagement will be essential for managing.

5259
06:36:37,620 --> 06:36:40,566
disruption can be ok because we learned and got better and have

5260
06:36:40,566 --> 06:36:43,336
done things better than in the past so I think this bill

5261
06:36:43,336 --> 06:36:48,730
positions the district to lead and not react, to ensure

5262
06:36:48,730 --> 06:36:49,476
innovation serves the public interest.

5263
06:36:49,476 --> 06:36:51,543
thank you for your consideration.

5264
06:36:51,543 --> 06:36:53,120
I'm happy to take any questions you might have.

5265
06:36:53,120 --> 06:36:56,214
chair allen: thank you. Colleen hawkinson.

5266
06:36:56,214 --> 06:37:01,120
ms. Hawkinson: good afternoon, chair allen and members of the

5267
06:37:01,120 --> 06:37:03,210
committee. My name is colleen hawkinson and

5268
06:37:03,210 --> 06:37:08,694
I'm testifying on behalf of the d.c. Bid council which unites 13

5269
06:37:08,694 --> 06:37:13,366
business improvement districts to champion ride -- vibrant

5270
06:37:13,366 --> 06:37:18,103
mixed-use neighborhoods paired we applaud council member alan

5271
06:37:18,103 --> 06:37:20,439
for introducing and councilmembers pinto and frumin

5272
06:37:20,439 --> 06:37:22,441
for cosponsoring the autonomous vehicle deployment authorization

5273
06:37:22,441 --> 06:37:26,512
act of 2026. This legislation marks a pivotal

5274
06:37:26,512 --> 06:37:31,483
moment in the district's 14 year regulatory journey by building

5275
06:37:31,483 --> 06:37:36,283
upon frameworks established by the council in 2012 and 2020.

5276
06:37:36,889 --> 06:37:39,525
this thoughtful evidence-based bill positions the district to

5277
06:37:39,525 --> 06:37:43,725
transition from av testing to commercial deployment.

5278
06:37:44,129 --> 06:37:49,134
years of rigorous on road operations, millions of driven

5279
06:37:49,134 --> 06:37:52,738
miles and exhaustive data collection have proven av

5280
06:37:52,738 --> 06:37:55,273
technology is no longer experimental.

5281
06:37:55,273 --> 06:37:59,211
commercial av deployment aligned seamlessly with the district

5282
06:37:59,211 --> 06:38:02,481
core goals of safety, equity and economic growth.

5283
06:38:02,481 --> 06:38:07,386
regarding safety, av technology removes human error from the

5284
06:38:07,386 --> 06:38:12,186
equation resulting in 94% fewer severe or fatal crashes, 93%

5285
06:38:12,657 --> 06:38:16,857
fewer pedestrian injuries and 84% fewer bicyclist injuries

5286
06:38:19,130 --> 06:38:24,530
compared to human drivers. Av's do not discriminate based

5287
06:38:26,505 --> 06:38:31,177
on -- do not discriminate. Furthermore, operators have

5288
06:38:31,177 --> 06:38:35,714
mapped every ward in d.c. To ensure equitable access.

5289
06:38:35,714 --> 06:38:39,518
fleet operations require a robust local footprint, industry

5290
06:38:39,518 --> 06:38:42,120
leaders are already investing in d.c. By crating stable, good

5291
06:38:42,120 --> 06:38:46,124
paying jobs in vehicle maintenance and logistics.

5292
06:38:46,124 --> 06:38:51,524
while the current draft provides a strong foundation, specific

5293
06:38:51,730 --> 06:38:53,532
provisions risk stifling the very innovation, equity and

5294
06:38:53,532 --> 06:38:56,135
growth the bill aims to achieve. We recommend the following

5295
06:38:56,135 --> 06:38:59,135
adjustments. Remove the 2028 paid ride

5296
06:39:03,842 --> 06:39:07,746
moratorium allowing commercial service to launch as soon as

5297
06:39:07,746 --> 06:39:10,949
operators meet all stringent district safety and operational

5298
06:39:10,949 --> 06:39:15,149
benchmarks. The shift from fleet caps to

5299
06:39:17,688 --> 06:39:20,425
performance milestones. The proposed 200 vehicle fleet

5300
06:39:20,425 --> 06:39:25,825
cap will provide -- create -- will disproportionately harm

5301
06:39:25,831 --> 06:39:27,632
residents. The council should allow fleets

5302
06:39:27,632 --> 06:39:32,432
to scale dynamically based on proven safety milestones.

5303
06:39:33,672 --> 06:39:37,308
and the vehicle miles traveled tax we have heard about we

5304
06:39:37,308 --> 06:39:43,480
recommend replacing the vmt tax with a capped fee that mirrors

5305
06:39:43,480 --> 06:39:47,919
the local gas tax. Embracing city technology is a

5306
06:39:47,919 --> 06:39:49,720
proven economic multiplier and its adoption is more critical

5307
06:39:49,720 --> 06:39:53,920
now than ever. As the district navigates

5308
06:39:54,258 --> 06:39:56,729
structural economic disruptions, particularly the long-term

5309
06:39:56,729 --> 06:39:59,197
shrinking of the federal government footprint, now is the

5310
06:39:59,197 --> 06:40:04,402
time for d.c. To embrace new industries and advanced

5311
06:40:04,402 --> 06:40:07,402
technologies to diversify our economy.

5312
06:40:07,873 --> 06:40:11,743
we already have blueprints through two existing innovation

5313
06:40:11,743 --> 06:40:16,543
districts, the penn west and mobility innovation district.

5314
06:40:17,149 --> 06:40:21,153
the former initiative is managed and operated by the golden

5315
06:40:21,153 --> 06:40:25,690
triangle bid and the latter is a collaboration by the southwest

5316
06:40:25,690 --> 06:40:28,627
and navy yard bids. With few refinements this bill

5317
06:40:28,627 --> 06:40:33,646
is number two not only to improve daily mobility but

5318
06:40:33,646 --> 06:40:36,450
firmly secure d.c.'s competitiveness is a resilient,

5319
06:40:36,450 --> 06:40:40,500
self-sustaining global hub by incorporating next-generation

5320
06:40:42,489 --> 06:40:46,526
industries into our ecosystem. Thank you for your leadership

5321
06:40:46,526 --> 06:40:48,694
and the opportunity to testify. I'm happy to answer questions.

5322
06:40:48,694 --> 06:40:55,294
chair allen: thank you all. Mr. Mortimer, I don't think we

5323
06:40:55,336 --> 06:41:00,106
have a copy of your testimony. If you have not already -- I

5324
06:41:00,106 --> 06:41:03,410
don't think you have, so if you would submit your testimony,

5325
06:41:03,410 --> 06:41:06,513
that way it becomes part of the record.

5326
06:41:06,513 --> 06:41:10,617
that would be helpful. Mr. Mortimer: happy to do so.

5327
06:41:10,617 --> 06:41:18,417
chair allen: did you have any -- I heard your support for the

5328
06:41:20,126 --> 06:41:22,162
legislation. Where there any recommendations

5329
06:41:22,162 --> 06:41:27,566
or changes you were advocating? Or are you just testifying to

5330
06:41:27,566 --> 06:41:28,802
say the council needs to move forward with this?

5331
06:41:28,802 --> 06:41:33,707
mr. Mortimer: yes, top of my testimony I stayed in my support

5332
06:41:33,707 --> 06:41:39,979
for the bill and my desire to see the council remove the 200

5333
06:41:39,979 --> 06:41:44,518
car cap, to have one more similar to san francisco, 1004

5334
06:41:44,518 --> 06:41:48,550
similarly sized city and move forward with the 2028 launch

5335
06:41:48,550 --> 06:41:51,550
date. Chair allen: thank you.

5336
06:41:51,525 --> 06:41:57,596
let me touch base on that quickly and ms. Hawkinson we are

5337
06:41:57,596 --> 06:42:02,669
happy to take a look at the date after the hearing.

5338
06:42:02,669 --> 06:42:08,669
part of the reason the 2028 date is selected, let's play

5339
06:42:09,342 --> 06:42:10,610
hypotheticals. If legislation were to move

5340
06:42:10,610 --> 06:42:16,100
forward this fall aftertwo readings and a mayor signature

5341
06:42:17,160 --> 06:42:21,816
on the always lovely congressional review, best case

5342
06:42:22,489 --> 06:42:26,659
scenario, the law's effective date be sometime next spring,

5343
06:42:26,659 --> 06:42:32,232
maybe late spring and ddot having to issue the next round

5344
06:42:32,232 --> 06:42:34,167
of permits they will go through the process to do all the

5345
06:42:34,167 --> 06:42:38,967
different checks they have to do so january 1, 2028.

5346
06:42:39,739 --> 06:42:44,770
it may be feels like a far-off date, but on a legislative

5347
06:42:44,770 --> 06:42:48,115
timeline I would be hard-pressed that anyone could get done

5348
06:42:48,115 --> 06:42:52,252
before that. We will take a look at it to see

5349
06:42:52,252 --> 06:42:57,657
if there are any spaces. I do think there is a decent

5350
06:42:57,657 --> 06:43:02,457
point made around the 200 cap for introduced legislation.

5351
06:43:03,129 --> 06:43:05,665
I'm not sure mr. Mortimer I would go all the way to 1000,

5352
06:43:05,665 --> 06:43:12,138
but from 200 if one of our policy goals is we want to have

5353
06:43:12,138 --> 06:43:13,874
equitable distribution serving all neighborhoods across the

5354
06:43:13,874 --> 06:43:17,744
city you could make a strong argument that if you only have

5355
06:43:17,744 --> 06:43:21,614
200 you will have a hard time being able to manage that.

5356
06:43:21,614 --> 06:43:27,320
the flipside to a cap is, this is new technology, it is disrupt

5357
06:43:27,320 --> 06:43:32,225
the, so we want to take a tiered approach as we phase in this new

5358
06:43:32,225 --> 06:43:36,960
technology in our city. You are not the only ones who

5359
06:43:36,960 --> 06:43:39,732
raised that over the course of the hearing so it is one we will

5360
06:43:39,732 --> 06:43:43,503
look at and see where the numbers are.

5361
06:43:43,503 --> 06:43:47,507
I don't know if 1000 is the right number but we have heard

5362
06:43:47,507 --> 06:43:52,440
200 may cut against other policy goals we are trying to achieve

5363
06:43:52,440 --> 06:43:58,644
so I appreciate that. Baca, I hear your point of hired

5364
06:44:01,720 --> 06:44:07,120
vehicles versus ddot. We will have ddot and the

5365
06:44:10,960 --> 06:44:15,968
department of hired vehicles here to have a conversation and

5366
06:44:15,968 --> 06:44:18,872
if the will is at some point what this moves into a

5367
06:44:18,872 --> 06:44:23,720
commercial operation, happy to have that conversation.

5368
06:44:27,800 --> 06:44:29,215
you mentioned specifics of recommendations and based on

5369
06:44:29,215 --> 06:44:31,818
your testimony it sounds like you would a chance to look

5370
06:44:31,818 --> 06:44:36,180
atatu's. There are a lot of them,

5371
06:44:36,210 --> 06:44:39,359
thoughtful stuff. Where there any you specifically

5372
06:44:39,359 --> 06:44:44,960
wanted to highlight as your top one or two you thought were

5373
06:44:44,960 --> 06:44:47,696
best? >> sure, I appreciate the reef

5374
06:44:48,634 --> 06:44:55,834
amy -- reframing of vmt, we have talked a little about it.

5375
06:44:57,677 --> 06:45:01,877
I'm very supportive of it in theory.

5376
06:45:02,115 --> 06:45:03,917
the dial needs to be turned up a little.

5377
06:45:03,917 --> 06:45:08,688
it is not just av's. It should be all tnc's.

5378
06:45:08,688 --> 06:45:12,888
maybe vmt's. The district is very small.

5379
06:45:17,330 --> 06:45:21,334
this is intentionally on how are we going to reduce congestion?

5380
06:45:21,334 --> 06:45:24,271
the potential benefits we heard are not going to be realized if

5381
06:45:24,271 --> 06:45:30,871
people are sitting in traffic. We are closely aligned with atu,

5382
06:45:34,313 --> 06:45:37,830
really appreciate the work they have put into this but I would

5383
06:45:37,830 --> 06:45:41,721
emphasize I don't think the vmt charges may be not the right

5384
06:45:41,721 --> 06:45:46,325
modality and we need to figure out not necessarily for revenue

5385
06:45:46,325 --> 06:45:47,827
purposes but congestion reduction purposes how we will

5386
06:45:47,827 --> 06:45:52,980
handle this and there is a separate conversation to be had

5387
06:45:52,980 --> 06:45:55,234
about curbside which we have not been able to figure out and that

5388
06:45:55,234 --> 06:46:01,641
is really critical for ddot. If I could apply ddot energy

5389
06:46:01,641 --> 06:46:05,445
anywhere I would love for it to be to a comprehensive curbside

5390
06:46:05,445 --> 06:46:09,482
management program. We are not where we need to be

5391
06:46:09,482 --> 06:46:11,784
to prepare for the deployment of av's.

5392
06:46:11,784 --> 06:46:16,121
chair allen: curbside management is what I was good to bring in

5393
06:46:16,121 --> 06:46:22,721
with meca and the navy yard. We had conversations around a

5394
06:46:22,728 --> 06:46:29,928
very dense environments, a lot of foot traffic and it is a

5395
06:46:30,470 --> 06:46:35,870
challenge to manage curbside throughout the navy yard bid.

5396
06:46:35,942 --> 06:46:41,123
I went to the ballgame saturday, was smart enough to know, don't

5397
06:46:41,123 --> 06:46:46,960
dare try to drive there so my son and I biked down, we had a

5398
06:46:46,960 --> 06:46:49,966
great experience as we do. The bike valley was not as full

5399
06:46:49,966 --> 06:46:54,766
as it normally is. The curbside's were jampacked.

5400
06:46:57,506 --> 06:46:59,309
double parked. And when we think about if

5401
06:46:59,309 --> 06:47:03,579
somebody were to say I would encourage them to take metro or

5402
06:47:03,579 --> 06:47:07,850
take a bike but somebody may say let me get an av to go to the

5403
06:47:07,850 --> 06:47:11,988
ballgame. I don't know where the vehicle

5404
06:47:11,988 --> 06:47:15,925
would pull over. As you think about managing and

5405
06:47:15,925 --> 06:47:18,494
working with different stakeholders around the curbside

5406
06:47:18,494 --> 06:47:24,266
space what are tips or advice you have for ddot to think about

5407
06:47:24,266 --> 06:47:28,204
curbside management as a former ddot director? >> you can craft

5408
06:47:28,204 --> 06:47:34,476
the most elegant solution but if you can't enforce it, doesn't

5409
06:47:34,476 --> 06:47:36,545
exist. The challenge is the capacity of

5410
06:47:36,545 --> 06:47:43,145
ddot to enforce regulations. We say the outcome goal is x.

5411
06:47:44,520 --> 06:47:48,757
we want you to bring your technology, solutions to achieve

5412
06:47:48,757 --> 06:47:52,957
that outcome and give room for solutions.

5413
06:47:53,929 --> 06:47:58,300
over the many years I've been around ddot, this issue of

5414
06:47:58,300 --> 06:48:01,900
enforcement has been a sticking point.

5415
06:48:02,405 --> 06:48:05,107
we don't have the bodies, we don't have the coverage we need

5416
06:48:05,107 --> 06:48:08,544
to protect a neighborhood or support the experience people

5417
06:48:08,544 --> 06:48:11,847
want so I do think this is the type of idea where even as it

5418
06:48:11,847 --> 06:48:16,647
relates to road charging or curbside enforcement, technology

5419
06:48:18,920 --> 06:48:23,580
is a powerful multiplier and expander of the enforcement

5420
06:48:23,580 --> 06:48:25,528
capability. That keeps people honest.

5421
06:48:25,528 --> 06:48:29,980
if you know there are consequences and value attached

5422
06:48:29,980 --> 06:48:32,000
with that choice you will factor it in verses, we all play the

5423
06:48:32,000 --> 06:48:35,671
numbers. I think I can get down there and

5424
06:48:35,671 --> 06:48:42,412
they may or may not enforce it. Chair allen: we have very

5425
06:48:42,412 --> 06:48:47,212
specific rules about for-hire vehicles around the ballpark.

5426
06:48:50,119 --> 06:48:53,956
should the same rules apply for any av operator that needs to

5427
06:48:53,956 --> 06:48:58,756
align with department of for-hire vehicle rules around

5428
06:48:59,495 --> 06:49:04,990
picking up and dropping off? >> I have a perspective on this.

5429
06:49:04,990 --> 06:49:08,238
when we drafted the plan for nats park we identified places

5430
06:49:08,238 --> 06:49:12,574
to drop off vehicles and bicycles to park at the stadium.

5431
06:49:12,574 --> 06:49:16,111
we just don't enforce it. Chair allen: I do see some.

5432
06:49:16,111 --> 06:49:19,711
>> consistently. Chair allen: I do see

5433
06:49:20,583 --> 06:49:24,183
enforcement from time to time. >> consistently.

5434
06:49:24,753 --> 06:49:28,257
if you know, you're a driver that ever tried the park in a

5435
06:49:28,257 --> 06:49:32,561
dense urban environment to take the risk if you know there is

5436
06:49:32,561 --> 06:49:35,530
certainty of the price being levied, you make a different

5437
06:49:35,530 --> 06:49:39,130
decision. Chair allen: ms. Durkin, was

5438
06:49:39,735 --> 06:49:42,404
going to ask you. Trying to follow your

5439
06:49:42,404 --> 06:49:46,800
recommendation around, we should not have the reporting

5440
06:49:46,800 --> 06:49:49,945
requirement around a crash or collision within eight hours

5441
06:49:49,945 --> 06:49:53,415
because -- correct me if I did not follow you correctly,

5442
06:49:53,415 --> 06:49:56,190
because there is a requirement, it would be redundant, did I

5443
06:49:56,190 --> 06:49:59,521
hear that correctly? Ms. Durkin: correct.

5444
06:49:59,521 --> 06:50:03,258
eight hours after a crash we believe that would be burdensome

5445
06:50:03,258 --> 06:50:05,761
remember companies to get that information in.

5446
06:50:05,761 --> 06:50:11,433
we would rather it be reported m totsa, and the bill follow that

5447
06:50:11,433 --> 06:50:14,103
per the standing order. Chair allen: what is the

5448
06:50:14,103 --> 06:50:19,174
timeline for that report? Ms. Durkin: I believe it is 24

5449
06:50:19,174 --> 06:50:20,775
hours but I will have to get back to you.

5450
06:50:20,775 --> 06:50:26,490
chair allen: does ntsa call up ddot and let them know about the

5451
06:50:26,490 --> 06:50:28,451
report? Ms. Durkin: I will check on that

5452
06:50:28,451 --> 06:50:31,521
process. Chair allen: wouldn't it be in

5453
06:50:31,521 --> 06:50:36,792
my self-interest as a local government, to know about a

5454
06:50:36,792 --> 06:50:38,293
crash or collision as soon as possible, and I don't entirely

5455
06:50:38,293 --> 06:50:44,933
trust ntsa to contact local d.c. But we have a vested interest in

5456
06:50:44,933 --> 06:50:48,937
knowing a crash or collision took place so we can look at how

5457
06:50:48,937 --> 06:50:55,537
do you help align reporting. 24 hours feels too long from a

5458
06:50:55,545 --> 06:50:59,915
local perspective. I'm also not sure if that is 24

5459
06:50:59,915 --> 06:51:05,353
business hours were real hours. Ms. Durkin: I will find out the

5460
06:51:05,353 --> 06:51:08,556
specifics and get back to you. Chair allen: from a local

5461
06:51:08,556 --> 06:51:11,293
perspective we have a vested interest in knowing as quickly

5462
06:51:11,293 --> 06:51:13,696
as possible if there is a crash or collision.

5463
06:51:13,696 --> 06:51:16,965
if there are ways that type of reporting can align so we are

5464
06:51:16,965 --> 06:51:20,636
not making operators go in different directions, I'm for

5465
06:51:20,636 --> 06:51:23,172
it, but also don't want to sacrifice that we have things

5466
06:51:23,172 --> 06:51:28,777
reported to the district if I don't know that federal dot and

5467
06:51:28,777 --> 06:51:32,581
ntsa will come back to us. Ms. Durkin: we will take a look

5468
06:51:32,581 --> 06:51:36,317
at it. Chair allen: thank you all for

5469
06:51:36,317 --> 06:51:39,788
your testimony, appreciate it. Let's move to our next panel of

5470
06:51:39,788 --> 06:51:42,788
witnesses. I've got theanc commissioner

5471
06:51:46,395 --> 06:51:52,395
eric heller from anc 4c07 who is joining us online.

5472
06:51:54,200 --> 06:51:58,202
samuel littauer. We had joe bishop-henchman but

5473
06:52:03,812 --> 06:52:09,510
he said he is not able to make it.

5474
06:52:09,510 --> 06:52:12,488
faith gibson hubbard, interim president and ceo of greater

5475
06:52:12,488 --> 06:52:17,693
washington urban league. >> she is supposed to be online.

5476
06:52:17,693 --> 06:52:23,930
chair allen: anwar saleem, executive director of h street

5477
06:52:24,500 --> 06:52:28,100
main street. Aman george, public witness.

5478
06:52:30,172 --> 06:52:34,972
rachelle nigro, who I do believe is online.

5479
06:52:35,444 --> 06:52:41,444
so I will promote you online. Michael cohen, public witness.

5480
06:52:42,618 --> 06:52:48,618
he is also online. Is greg rogers here, founder and

5481
06:52:52,201 --> 06:52:54,237
executive director of the innovation majority?

5482
06:52:54,237 --> 06:52:57,837
ok, online. Ms. Talitha washington, exec

5483
06:53:03,120 --> 06:53:04,380
live director of the center for applied data science and in a

5484
06:53:04,380 --> 06:53:07,380
lytic? Talitha, come on up.

5485
06:53:09,452 --> 06:53:16,520
>> she is joining online, too. Chair allen: I might stop there.

5486
06:53:19,662 --> 06:53:25,234
for this panel we have two witnesses in person, several

5487
06:53:25,234 --> 06:53:29,105
online so commissioner eric heller I see you are online and

5488
06:53:29,105 --> 06:53:31,575
ready to go so why don't I turn it over to you for your

5489
06:53:31,575 --> 06:53:35,175
testimony. Thank you for joining us.

5490
06:53:35,945 --> 06:53:40,745
mr. Heller: absolutely. Good afternoon chair allen and

5491
06:53:41,450 --> 06:53:43,386
fellow councilmembers, think you for the opportunity to testify

5492
06:53:43,386 --> 06:53:48,191
before the committee. My name is eric heller, I'm the

5493
06:53:48,191 --> 06:53:51,791
anc commissioner for district anc 4c07.

5494
06:53:52,295 --> 06:53:57,201
I'm pleased to testify on behalf of our anc 4c07 commission.

5495
06:53:57,201 --> 06:54:00,670
I'm testifying in support of the autonomous vehicle deployment

5496
06:54:00,670 --> 06:54:06,700
authorization act of 2026. This position is rooted in the

5497
06:54:06,275 --> 06:54:10,880
underlying problem I think we should focus on solving which

5498
06:54:10,880 --> 06:54:18,800
is, how do we reduce the number of deaths, injuries and acute

5499
06:54:18,454 --> 06:54:22,291
injuries to moderate -- motorists and bicyclist.

5500
06:54:22,291 --> 06:54:26,940
the pros and cons of autonomous vehicles follow from that

5501
06:54:26,940 --> 06:54:30,294
framing. Every day around 8:00 a.m. Until

5502
06:54:30,900 --> 06:54:36,300
5:30 p.m. I watch hampshire avenue and quincy southwest

5503
06:54:36,572 --> 06:54:40,310
becoming a game of chance, drivers going through when a

5504
06:54:40,310 --> 06:54:45,110
cyclist is trying to curve, scooters jumping curbs.

5505
06:54:46,115 --> 06:54:50,320
I reported this to ddot for almost four years and many

5506
06:54:50,320 --> 06:54:54,323
neighbors have as well and this is just one anecdote that plays

5507
06:54:54,323 --> 06:54:58,861
out across the district. Those human driven interactions

5508
06:54:58,861 --> 06:55:02,865
are the most dangerous thing on that street, not autonomous

5509
06:55:02,865 --> 06:55:06,465
vehicles. That said, at meetings my

5510
06:55:09,739 --> 06:55:12,809
neighbors are not sold on driverless vehicle technology

5511
06:55:12,809 --> 06:55:17,279
and their concerns deserve to be addressed and allayed.

5512
06:55:17,279 --> 06:55:21,160
they point to other topics raised in this forum, vehicles

5513
06:55:21,160 --> 06:55:26,856
disabled in a power outage, and when a machine fails around

5514
06:55:26,856 --> 06:55:31,656
children, no press release will erase that fear.

5515
06:55:32,495 --> 06:55:37,990
the mechanism, all of these concerns deserve responses in

5516
06:55:37,990 --> 06:55:39,968
conversation, the mechanism that matters for kids and other

5517
06:55:39,968 --> 06:55:44,168
vulnerable residents is, an autonomous vehicle, unlike

5518
06:55:45,508 --> 06:55:49,779
humans, does not drink, text, speed through a yellow light, or

5519
06:55:49,779 --> 06:55:52,481
get impatient about being late for work at a crosswalk.

5520
06:55:52,481 --> 06:55:56,585
those are human behaviors that kill pedestrians, children and

5521
06:55:56,585 --> 06:56:02,526
vulnerable residents every year. On the plus side, this bill

5522
06:56:02,526 --> 06:56:04,327
introduces solid requirements around miles and testing,

5523
06:56:04,327 --> 06:56:10,927
capping the fleet size, giving ddot a number of abilities to

5524
06:56:13,202 --> 06:56:15,671
permit operators creating unreasonable risk and that is

5525
06:56:15,671 --> 06:56:18,710
grounded in evidence-based oversight.

5526
06:56:21,770 --> 06:56:24,140
recognizing different community members have different concerns

5527
06:56:24,140 --> 06:56:28,951
and assumptions about driverless vehicles, I ask our neighbors

5528
06:56:28,951 --> 06:56:31,686
and would ask anyone who wants to understand the capabilities

5529
06:56:31,686 --> 06:56:33,489
and limitations of the technology to do one thing I've

5530
06:56:33,489 --> 06:56:37,427
done. It was eye-opening, and that is

5531
06:56:37,427 --> 06:56:40,629
riding one. This is by no way an

5532
06:56:40,629 --> 06:56:43,766
endorsement. It is because you cannot judge

5533
06:56:43,766 --> 06:56:48,304
these systems from a hearing room or social media.

5534
06:56:48,304 --> 06:56:52,909
you don't grasp the problem or how these technologies handle

5535
06:56:52,909 --> 06:56:55,844
these complex interactions on the streets, outside of

5536
06:56:55,844 --> 06:56:58,844
real-world experience. Beyond autonomous vehicles,

5537
06:57:01,283 --> 06:57:04,687
history is rife with these learnings from experienced,

5538
06:57:04,687 --> 06:57:08,123
whether it is automated elevators, trusting route

5539
06:57:08,123 --> 06:57:11,694
planning and google maps, automated train signaling.

5540
06:57:11,694 --> 06:57:15,640
the trust and automation comes from direct experience.

5541
06:57:15,640 --> 06:57:20,464
this think said, the bill has room for improvement.

5542
06:57:20,836 --> 06:57:24,500
what our commission would ask his five specific provisions to

5543
06:57:24,500 --> 06:57:26,809
be added. First, at real-time

5544
06:57:26,809 --> 06:57:31,900
transparency. While the bill makes them report

5545
06:57:31,747 --> 06:57:35,885
crashes and disabling events the ddot, require that it is made

5546
06:57:35,885 --> 06:57:40,623
public, spatially mapped, so they concert -- search of the

5547
06:57:40,623 --> 06:57:43,160
data, available to the public the moment it reaches the

5548
06:57:43,160 --> 06:57:46,160
agency. Second, an automatic standdown,

5549
06:57:47,300 --> 06:57:51,567
any crash triggers immediate suspension for no shorter than

5550
06:57:51,567 --> 06:57:53,967
30 days pending full investigation.

5551
06:57:54,700 --> 06:57:57,707
third is public findings. Make sure findings of

5552
06:57:57,707 --> 06:58:01,443
investigations are released to the public, not distilled into a

5553
06:58:01,443 --> 06:58:04,547
press release after the cars are back on the road.

5554
06:58:04,547 --> 06:58:08,250
fourth, protect civil liberties. We recognize each vehicle has a

5555
06:58:08,250 --> 06:58:11,854
robot camera and its footage can be subpoenaed and residents

5556
06:58:11,854 --> 06:58:15,454
deserve to know when that happens.

5557
06:58:15,524 --> 06:58:17,193
we recommend requiring each operator to publish an

5558
06:58:17,193 --> 06:58:20,396
aggregated monthly report of all law enforcement requests for

5559
06:58:20,396 --> 06:58:26,396
footage data, regardless of the agency that is outsourced from.

5560
06:58:26,469 --> 06:58:29,672
fifth and final is funding the agency to do the work.

5561
06:58:29,672 --> 06:58:33,742
this bill hands ddot a ton of responsibilities, they are

5562
06:58:33,742 --> 06:58:37,246
already on a tight budget. Oversight not appropriately

5563
06:58:37,246 --> 06:58:40,846
staffed becomes oversight in name only.

5564
06:58:41,170 --> 06:58:44,720
it should not become the operators at the publix risk.

5565
06:58:44,720 --> 06:58:48,490
I recognize I'm over my time. Thank you, happy to answer any

5566
06:58:48,490 --> 06:58:51,560
questions you have. Chair allen: thank you,

5567
06:58:51,560 --> 06:58:55,832
commissioner. Next let me turn to faith gibson

5568
06:58:55,832 --> 06:58:58,234
hubbard who is also joining us online.

5569
06:58:58,234 --> 06:59:03,340
ms. Hubbard: good afternoon, chairperson allen, members of

5570
06:59:04,379 --> 06:59:08,490
the committee and staff. It is my pleasure to testify

5571
06:59:08,490 --> 06:59:12,721
virtually on behalf of the greater washington urban league.

5572
06:59:12,721 --> 06:59:15,589
my name is dr. Faith gibson hubbard and I serve as interim

5573
06:59:15,589 --> 06:59:18,460
president and ceo. For almost 90 years the greater

5574
06:59:18,460 --> 06:59:22,970
washington urban league has worked to advance mobility,

5575
06:59:22,970 --> 06:59:25,667
strengthen families and expand opportunity and address racial

5576
06:59:25,667 --> 06:59:27,200
and economic disparities across the district of columbia and

5577
06:59:27,200 --> 06:59:30,938
this region. Every day through our community

5578
06:59:30,938 --> 06:59:34,610
cares model we strengthen financial empowerment, workforce

5579
06:59:34,610 --> 06:59:36,210
development, entrepreneurship, housing.

5580
06:59:36,210 --> 06:59:39,880
we see residents working to build stability and a better

5581
06:59:39,880 --> 06:59:43,480
future for themselves and their families.

5582
06:59:43,685 --> 06:59:45,854
we know how critical transportation can be to a

5583
06:59:45,854 --> 06:59:50,492
family or a resident's ability to access opportunity throughout

5584
06:59:50,492 --> 06:59:53,761
the city and region. That is why this legislation is

5585
06:59:53,761 --> 06:59:57,631
so important to us. For us it is not simply the lens

5586
06:59:57,631 --> 07:00:03,271
of policy itself, but around whether or not this policy will

5587
07:00:03,271 --> 07:00:06,741
expand economic opportunity and strengthen pathways to

5588
07:00:06,741 --> 07:00:09,177
opportunity for those who have been furthest from opportunity

5589
07:00:09,177 --> 07:00:14,415
for so long. That is the way we see this

5590
07:00:14,415 --> 07:00:17,415
legislation. We believe autonomous vehicle

5591
07:00:19,253 --> 07:00:22,550
technology has tremendous potential in the city and while

5592
07:00:22,550 --> 07:00:24,859
it can be thoughtfully implemented and strengthen

5593
07:00:24,859 --> 07:00:28,596
transit it has to also create greater opportunity, access jobs

5594
07:00:28,596 --> 07:00:32,734
and meaningful investments in the district and that is what we

5595
07:00:32,734 --> 07:00:34,734
care most about.

5596
07:00:36,337 --> 07:00:40,874
that is why the question before us is whether or not the

5597
07:00:40,874 --> 07:00:42,877
question comes before us. The question is will the benefit

5598
07:00:42,877 --> 07:00:45,546
broadly be shared in and many times, it is not.

5599
07:00:45,546 --> 07:00:49,170
as someone who lives in part of the city where metro is not

5600
07:00:49,170 --> 07:00:53,688
easily accessible, and as a parent of a child who takes

5601
07:00:53,688 --> 07:00:57,240
public transit to and from school every day and summer

5602
07:00:57,240 --> 07:01:00,627
camp, I understand how important reliable transportation can be.

5603
07:01:00,627 --> 07:01:06,100
especially for residents like me where transportation is not a

5604
07:01:06,100 --> 07:01:09,570
meter of convenience, but it's a different of accessing

5605
07:01:09,570 --> 07:01:12,240
opportunity. So for this legislation, we are

5606
07:01:12,240 --> 07:01:15,376
very interested in how autonomous vehicles strengthen

5607
07:01:15,376 --> 07:01:18,512
the first and last mile connections for residents.

5608
07:01:18,512 --> 07:01:25,587
how will it improve access to jobs and serve as a compliment

5609
07:01:25,587 --> 07:01:29,787
to public transit, rather than replacing it.

5610
07:01:30,524 --> 07:01:35,462
reporting that we have seen have shown how it can strengthen the

5611
07:01:35,462 --> 07:01:37,865
local hiring and partnerships with many of the programs we

5612
07:01:37,865 --> 07:01:41,202
love and enjoy. A district resident should not

5613
07:01:41,202 --> 07:01:43,204
be simply a rider in the economy.

5614
07:01:43,204 --> 07:01:47,408
but we should be able to maintain it, build it, manage it

5615
07:01:47,408 --> 07:01:49,544
and benefit from it in all the ways.

5616
07:01:49,544 --> 07:01:54,749
that is why at gwul, we believe that career pathways, local

5617
07:01:54,749 --> 07:02:00,149
hiring and apen trisship opportunities have to be central

5618
07:02:00,154 --> 07:02:02,490
to the conversation. While the overall direction of

5619
07:02:02,490 --> 07:02:08,490
the legislation is something that we are excited about, we

5620
07:02:10,970 --> 07:02:11,833
believe that there are three important changes that we hope

5621
07:02:11,833 --> 07:02:16,633
that the committee will continue to look at.

5622
07:02:16,904 --> 07:02:22,443
first, to adopt an equitable approach and residents who rely

5623
07:02:22,443 --> 07:02:26,447
on ride-sharing services to access jobs, child care, grocery

5624
07:02:26,447 --> 07:02:31,185
stores and other essentials. Second, to replace the wait cap

5625
07:02:31,185 --> 07:02:36,585
with a performance-based model tied with safety, service and

5626
07:02:36,723 --> 07:02:42,463
equity outcome so that residents can have reliable access, and

5627
07:02:42,463 --> 07:02:49,630
third, that it's more explicit -- that it's more of a

5628
07:02:49,470 --> 07:02:53,607
hybrid transportation through networks, while supporting work

5629
07:02:53,607 --> 07:02:58,407
force continuity and easterning opportunities for drivers for

5630
07:02:58,412 --> 07:03:02,612
other ride hailing services. Finally, reencourage strong

5631
07:03:04,885 --> 07:03:09,424
accountability manages, wait times and local hiring, work

5632
07:03:09,424 --> 07:03:13,940
force participate, and equitable hiring across the district.

5633
07:03:13,940 --> 07:03:17,631
we look forward to the success of the legislation measured by

5634
07:03:17,631 --> 07:03:21,703
how many vehicles are on the street, but also the opportunity

5635
07:03:21,703 --> 07:03:24,638
and pathways it creates for driktd residents.

5636
07:03:24,638 --> 07:03:27,775
we know the technology cannot create an opportunity.

5637
07:03:27,775 --> 07:03:29,777
but that intentional policy does.

5638
07:03:29,777 --> 07:03:33,848
and many times, we have policy that starts intentional and

5639
07:03:33,848 --> 07:03:37,185
moves in a different direction. I have submitted detailed

5640
07:03:37,185 --> 07:03:40,188
testimony for the record and respectfully ask to continue to

5641
07:03:40,188 --> 07:03:44,191
be a part of the conversation, like many of the others who have

5642
07:03:44,191 --> 07:03:46,394
testified here today. Again, thank you so much for the

5643
07:03:46,394 --> 07:03:48,863
opportunity, and I welcome any questions you might have.

5644
07:03:48,863 --> 07:03:50,398
>> excellent. Thank you very much.

5645
07:03:50,398 --> 07:03:56,998
next, we turn to anwar saleem who is here in person.

5646
07:03:57,710 --> 07:04:00,942
sorry, mr. Saleem. Can you push the button.

5647
07:04:00,942 --> 07:04:03,411
>> good afternoon, chairman allen and members of the

5648
07:04:03,411 --> 07:04:08,211
committee. My name is anwar saleem, and I'm

5649
07:04:09,750 --> 07:04:11,685
exk executive director of h street

5650
07:04:11,685 --> 07:04:15,285
main street. And a former transportation

5651
07:04:16,757 --> 07:04:19,827
professional with moda. Thank you for the opportunity to

5652
07:04:19,827 --> 07:04:25,827
testify today on bill 26-684. I have submitted my written

5653
07:04:26,968 --> 07:04:29,971
testimony for the record. This evening, I would like to

5654
07:04:29,971 --> 07:04:33,775
briefly highlight what I believe are the four principles that

5655
07:04:33,775 --> 07:04:37,512
should guide the district for autonomous vehicles.

5656
07:04:37,512 --> 07:04:40,512
safety, access, opportunity and equity.

5657
07:04:41,516 --> 07:04:44,852
for safety, publy confidence is essential.

5658
07:04:44,852 --> 07:04:50,852
residents need to know that av vehicles safely operate along

5659
07:04:51,925 --> 07:04:54,461
pedestrians, children, and people are disabilities.

5660
07:04:54,461 --> 07:04:58,661
public trust will often determine whether this

5661
07:05:00,670 --> 07:05:01,935
technology succeeds. Secondly is access.

5662
07:05:01,935 --> 07:05:04,205
transportation is connecting people to opportunity.

5663
07:05:04,205 --> 07:05:10,564
it connects people to jobs, and they work in the computers.

5664
07:05:10,564 --> 07:05:18,364
and as director of main street, I see it connects with the local

5665
07:05:20,706 --> 07:05:24,310
businesses, and how they spend time in the local districts.

5666
07:05:24,310 --> 07:05:30,310
I don't see and it provides a safe transportation option.

5667
07:05:43,395 --> 07:05:45,664
particularly during evenings and special events.

5668
07:05:45,664 --> 07:05:49,735
I also believe that there is an exciting opportunity for

5669
07:05:49,735 --> 07:05:53,935
thoughtful public private partnerships to introduce people

5670
07:05:56,700 --> 07:05:58,210
to autonomous mobility, and encouraging them to discover

5671
07:05:58,210 --> 07:06:03,610
neighbors like minnesota avenue, and colleges like georgetown and

5672
07:06:05,884 --> 07:06:06,752
more. It should be more than a way to

5673
07:06:06,752 --> 07:06:10,220
get somewhere. It should connect people to

5674
07:06:10,220 --> 07:06:13,622
businesses, restaurants and entrepreneurs that make

5675
07:06:15,694 --> 07:06:18,940
neighborhoods unique. Third, opportunity.

5676
07:06:18,630 --> 07:06:24,904
before leading h street main street, I began as a bus

5677
07:06:24,904 --> 07:06:29,375
cleaner, and a deezal mechanic. It taught me that transportation

5678
07:06:29,375 --> 07:06:31,910
systems don't just move people. They create careers.

5679
07:06:31,910 --> 07:06:36,182
when I recently toured the operations, I saw many

5680
07:06:36,182 --> 07:06:39,182
opportunities reflected in modern transportation.

5681
07:06:40,920 --> 07:06:44,520
from fleet operations, maintenance, technology, lodge

5682
07:06:44,991 --> 07:06:48,591
igsices, facility, safety and technology again.

5683
07:06:50,462 --> 07:06:55,862
through h street main street, we pay approximately 100 interns

5684
07:06:56,100 --> 07:07:02,601
each year to work for the programs to expose them to

5685
07:07:04,543 --> 07:07:06,478
artificial intelligence, and I believe the district has an

5686
07:07:06,478 --> 07:07:10,482
opportunity to connect the young people to careers supporting

5687
07:07:10,482 --> 07:07:12,882
future mobility. Finally, equity.

5688
07:07:13,552 --> 07:07:20,152
one of the most important things is it emphasizes on comparable

5689
07:07:21,694 --> 07:07:24,230
rate times. Innovation should not be limited

5690
07:07:24,230 --> 07:07:28,367
to a few neighborhoods. Every resident should have an

5691
07:07:28,367 --> 07:07:32,171
opportunity to get options regardless of where they live.

5692
07:07:32,171 --> 07:07:36,775
chairman, throughout my career, I have learned to every major

5693
07:07:36,775 --> 07:07:39,177
transportation investment has a power to shape communities.

5694
07:07:39,177 --> 07:07:43,849
my hope is that autonomous mobility will do more than move

5695
07:07:43,849 --> 07:07:46,318
people. It will expand opportunity,

5696
07:07:46,318 --> 07:07:50,256
strengthen neighborhood quarters and help prepare the next

5697
07:07:50,256 --> 07:07:55,656
generation of washingtonians. The future should not arrive in

5698
07:07:59,398 --> 07:08:01,934
washington. It should create opportunities

5699
07:08:01,934 --> 07:08:06,405
to participate in building it. As often said, I will say I many

5700
07:08:06,405 --> 07:08:08,874
times, it isn't about moving vehicles.

5701
07:08:08,874 --> 07:08:11,410
it's about moving communities forward.

5702
07:08:11,410 --> 07:08:14,280
thank you for the opportunity to testify today.

5703
07:08:14,280 --> 07:08:17,149
>> thank you very much. Next, let me turn to aman george

5704
07:08:17,149 --> 07:08:20,352
who is joining us online. >> hi.

5705
07:08:20,352 --> 07:08:24,557
thank you, chairman allen. My name is aman george.

5706
07:08:24,557 --> 07:08:28,157
I'm a former neighborhood advisory commissioner.

5707
07:08:28,494 --> 07:08:33,632
I'm a frequent driver, bicyclist and pedestrian in the city.

5708
07:08:33,632 --> 07:08:38,303
and the father of two young children who get to and from

5709
07:08:38,303 --> 07:08:40,773
school and daycare by bike most days.

5710
07:08:40,773 --> 07:08:47,373
like many people, I'm hopeful that av adoption will make the

5711
07:08:47,446 --> 07:08:49,515
streets less chaotic and dangerous.

5712
07:08:49,515 --> 07:08:53,252
but, I believe that as a district begins to welcome avs

5713
07:08:53,252 --> 07:08:58,524
on the streets to operate at scale, it needs to exercise

5714
07:08:58,524 --> 07:09:00,393
tighter control of the companies.

5715
07:09:00,393 --> 07:09:03,328
once the companies are operating in the district, it's going to

5716
07:09:03,328 --> 07:09:08,400
be very difficult to adjust to be more strict, even when they

5717
07:09:08,400 --> 07:09:12,700
are demonstrating to do so. I'm concerned that a huge amount

5718
07:09:12,700 --> 07:09:17,760
of training experience found in the vehicles come from places

5719
07:09:17,760 --> 07:09:22,815
that are more centric where cars are allowed to dominate the

5720
07:09:22,815 --> 07:09:25,550
roads where they don't have to share the space.

5721
07:09:25,550 --> 07:09:31,824
and what works on an arizona road may not on our street.

5722
07:09:31,824 --> 07:09:36,428
waymo effectively acknowledged this morning, it programs the

5723
07:09:36,428 --> 07:09:42,428
vehicles to block bike lanes to prioritize the expoorerience of

5724
07:09:43,635 --> 07:09:45,837
waymo customers. Er don't think they should be

5725
07:09:45,837 --> 07:09:50,175
allowed to pick and choose which laws to follow, when they are

5726
07:09:50,175 --> 07:09:53,379
choosing not to follow the rules.

5727
07:09:53,379 --> 07:09:58,450
if av companies are given the flexibility over safety, a lot

5728
07:09:58,450 --> 07:10:01,587
of the safety improvements may not come to pass.

5729
07:10:01,587 --> 07:10:08,393
I think the act is not as strong as it should be, and prohibiting

5730
07:10:08,393 --> 07:10:11,130
the local traffic and parking laws, and I would like to see it

5731
07:10:11,130 --> 07:10:14,400
changed before I support the bill.

5732
07:10:14,400 --> 07:10:19,800
some provisions which could require av companies to disclose

5733
07:10:23,809 --> 07:10:27,146
the conditions they chose to violate the parking laws and

5734
07:10:27,146 --> 07:10:29,415
keep the city updated when that changes.

5735
07:10:29,415 --> 07:10:35,415
another place to make modifications is 3a2f, not to

5736
07:10:37,622 --> 07:10:39,758
make effort to idle in the travel lane.

5737
07:10:39,758 --> 07:10:44,229
I prer fehr to see stronger language prohibiting them to

5738
07:10:44,229 --> 07:10:49,301
stop in bike lanes or crosswalks, or if necessary, to

5739
07:10:49,301 --> 07:10:52,301
serve customers with mobility impairments.

5740
07:10:52,571 --> 07:10:57,443
I lould like to see enforcement efforts have to content against

5741
07:10:57,443 --> 07:11:01,580
the biggest companies on the planet lobbying against them.

5742
07:11:01,580 --> 07:11:05,116
transportation will look different in d.c. When they have

5743
07:11:05,116 --> 07:11:10,322
to fight against google rather than a civic association.

5744
07:11:10,322 --> 07:11:15,122
leaving enforcement totally up to lower agencies creates

5745
07:11:16,738 --> 07:11:18,807
vulnerability for the regulatory scheme.

5746
07:11:18,807 --> 07:11:24,807
the council should allow private citizens to seek relief locally

5747
07:11:25,881 --> 07:11:28,281
for the violations. Thanks.

5748
07:11:28,483 --> 07:11:34,483
>> thank you very much. Next, let me turn to rachelle

5749
07:11:35,757 --> 07:11:36,426
nigro. Good afternoon.

5750
07:11:36,426 --> 07:11:39,227
>> good afternoon. Thank you for the opportunity to

5751
07:11:39,227 --> 07:11:43,427
testify. My name is rachelle nigro, and

5752
07:11:44,499 --> 07:11:48,770
I'm speaking as a resident of washington, d.c., not as a

5753
07:11:48,770 --> 07:11:51,307
commissioner. I'm here today to support

5754
07:11:51,307 --> 07:11:53,575
autonomous vehicle amendsment act of 2026.

5755
07:11:53,575 --> 07:11:56,511
this bill finally moves the district from years on of a

5756
07:11:56,511 --> 07:12:02,451
stalled pilot program and to real, regulated frame work that

5757
07:12:02,451 --> 07:12:05,451
prioritizes safety, transparency and accountability.

5758
07:12:05,587 --> 07:12:09,458
the bill's introduction notes that autonomous vehicles present

5759
07:12:09,458 --> 07:12:13,729
an opportunity to improve traffic safety, and proponents

5760
07:12:13,729 --> 07:12:16,531
claim it's safer than the average human driver.

5761
07:12:16,531 --> 07:12:21,537
national data backs this up. Autonomous systems have a lower

5762
07:12:21,537 --> 07:12:24,272
crash rate per mile in dense urban environments where

5763
07:12:24,272 --> 07:12:26,875
distraction and human error dominate collisions.

5764
07:12:26,875 --> 07:12:29,345
I also want to speak from personal experience.

5765
07:12:29,345 --> 07:12:34,820
I own a tesla equipped with full self-driving super vised.

5766
07:12:34,820 --> 07:12:40,289
while it's not the same as a level four or level 5 autonomous

5767
07:12:40,289 --> 07:12:42,225
vehicle, it is part of the same family.

5768
07:12:42,225 --> 07:12:46,940
it is level 2, and I share my data with tesla.

5769
07:12:46,940 --> 07:12:50,766
the car drives daily in the district, including new york

5770
07:12:50,766 --> 07:12:56,166
avenue, 395, 295, and areas like navy yard with many pedestrians.

5771
07:12:59,174 --> 07:13:02,444
it is rare that I need to disengage.

5772
07:13:02,444 --> 07:13:07,244
the system handles lane centering, turns and complex

5773
07:13:08,383 --> 07:13:13,783
intersections with a sifrp lmpl outperms many human drivers.

5774
07:13:17,259 --> 07:13:20,796
all qualified companies, includes tesla, should have an

5775
07:13:20,796 --> 07:13:25,467
opportunity to deploy vehicles in the district, provided they

5776
07:13:25,467 --> 07:13:28,300
meet safety reporting and requirements in the legislation.

5777
07:13:28,300 --> 07:13:31,473
the truth is, d.c. Is falling behind.

5778
07:13:31,473 --> 07:13:35,143
cities like phoenix, san francisco, los angeles and las

5779
07:13:35,143 --> 07:13:39,343
vegas already have commercial autonomous vehicle service

5780
07:13:41,750 --> 07:13:44,686
operating. I'm headed to las vegas soon,

5781
07:13:44,686 --> 07:13:49,157
and will not he has ssitate to there.

5782
07:13:49,157 --> 07:13:53,362
d.c. Should be a leidner this, not a lagger.

5783
07:13:53,362 --> 07:13:58,234
the bill's guardrail's 250,000 miles of safe testing in d.c.,

5784
07:13:58,234 --> 07:14:02,638
first respondser interaction plans, and live coverage, and

5785
07:14:02,638 --> 07:14:07,377
strict quarterly reporting are the strongest in the country.

5786
07:14:07,377 --> 07:14:10,712
in short, this legislation is a safety first, accountability

5787
07:14:10,712 --> 07:14:17,119
first frame work that positions d.c. To finally enter the 21st

5788
07:14:17,119 --> 07:14:20,255
century. Autonomous vehicles can make the

5789
07:14:20,255 --> 07:14:21,991
roads safer and more predictable.

5790
07:14:21,991 --> 07:14:25,928
I have been on the hearing since 9:00 a.m., and I can tell you

5791
07:14:25,928 --> 07:14:33,680
the avs will save lives. I use it every day, and it is --

5792
07:14:33,680 --> 07:14:38,407
the bike lanes, tesla, what I use, it follows the rules of the

5793
07:14:38,407 --> 07:14:41,407
road. Thank you very much.

5794
07:14:42,770 --> 07:14:45,677
>> thank you very much. Miss nigro.

5795
07:14:46,150 --> 07:14:50,886
let's go to michael kcohen who s joining us online.

5796
07:14:50,886 --> 07:14:58,930
>> my name is michael cohen and I'm a d.c. Parent, and the

5797
07:14:58,930 --> 07:15:02,497
commissioner -- in which oversees parts of manor park,

5798
07:15:02,497 --> 07:15:06,697
and tacoma. I'm testifying in my personal

5799
07:15:08,370 --> 07:15:11,239
capacity in the amendsment act of 2026.

5800
07:15:11,239 --> 07:15:16,390
and again, just testifying in my own capacity.

5801
07:15:18,847 --> 07:15:21,784
last night, imcame in contact with ha car accident.

5802
07:15:21,784 --> 07:15:26,540
a driver crossed the double yellow to pass an oncoming

5803
07:15:26,540 --> 07:15:30,659
vehicle off the road enter on a neighbor's property.

5804
07:15:30,659 --> 07:15:34,396
inside the car was a parent and several children.

5805
07:15:34,396 --> 07:15:37,132
no one was hurt, but that is by luck.

5806
07:15:37,132 --> 07:15:42,137
no was was on the sidewalk, no one was walking a dog or pushing

5807
07:15:42,137 --> 07:15:44,720
a stroller. And a fence stopped the car

5808
07:15:44,720 --> 07:15:47,476
before it reached the neighbor's living room.

5809
07:15:47,476 --> 07:15:50,478
I walk that sidewalk every day. We shouldn't have to rely on

5810
07:15:50,478 --> 07:15:53,415
luck when it comes to safety. I want to be clear.

5811
07:15:53,415 --> 07:15:57,219
I support the bill. I want to see autonomous

5812
07:15:57,219 --> 07:16:02,691
vehicles in the district. And they don't cross a double

5813
07:16:02,691 --> 07:16:06,696
yellow line, and it's not replying to a text message.

5814
07:16:06,696 --> 07:16:09,898
but communities have to have a voice when it comes to feign

5815
07:16:09,898 --> 07:16:15,898
structure, and it doesn't abstract from me, and the road

5816
07:16:17,906 --> 07:16:21,710
is on contract for a bike share. And workers coming to me abouts

5817
07:16:21,710 --> 07:16:26,480
the conditions they work in. And neighbors come to me about

5818
07:16:26,480 --> 07:16:30,919
employee behavior in the blocks, enough that neighbors have

5819
07:16:30,919 --> 07:16:35,724
called the police. I have raised the concerns to

5820
07:16:35,724 --> 07:16:41,124
every channel. My point is that this isn't a

5821
07:16:41,195 --> 07:16:44,933
company behaving badly. When the residents call the

5822
07:16:44,933 --> 07:16:48,737
alarm, there is no reaction. Not that anyone responds.

5823
07:16:48,737 --> 07:16:51,740
that is a design problem, and something that the committee can

5824
07:16:51,740 --> 07:16:56,745
fix before the first av facility opens here in the district.

5825
07:16:56,745 --> 07:17:01,883
so I -- first act, I'm hoping the committee will -- public

5826
07:17:01,883 --> 07:17:06,830
comment on permitting the decisions regarding av

5827
07:17:06,287 --> 07:17:09,557
infrastructure, charging sites and maintenance facilities.

5828
07:17:09,557 --> 07:17:14,950
seconds, I would love to see the bill give notice before a

5829
07:17:14,950 --> 07:17:16,765
facility, is sited in a neighborhood.

5830
07:17:16,765 --> 07:17:20,968
where the people -- the constituents call first, so let

5831
07:17:20,968 --> 07:17:26,782
us be useful in the front end, instead of cleeaning up the bac

5832
07:17:26,782 --> 07:17:30,382
end. And let's hold ddot accountable

5833
07:17:30,520 --> 07:17:33,856
and instead of giving authority. My neighbors know what the

5834
07:17:33,856 --> 07:17:36,660
agency is going to keep them safe.

5835
07:17:36,660 --> 07:17:40,463
the bill seems to hold companies to a high standard when it comes

5836
07:17:40,463 --> 07:17:44,000
to reporting. Shut do the same for ddot, the

5837
07:17:44,000 --> 07:17:47,700
agency overseeing themg. Thank you again for the time.

5838
07:17:47,700 --> 07:17:49,406
and happy to answer any questions.

5839
07:17:49,406 --> 07:17:54,206
>> thank you very much, sir. Next, greg rogers.

5840
07:17:54,811 --> 07:17:57,130
>> excellent, thank you very much.

5841
07:17:57,130 --> 07:18:00,817
chair personnel and members of the committee on transportation

5842
07:18:00,817 --> 07:18:03,819
and the environment. I really appreciate you holding

5843
07:18:03,819 --> 07:18:08,357
today's hearing on the topic. My name is greg rogers, the

5844
07:18:08,357 --> 07:18:12,428
founder and executive director of the innovation majority, to

5845
07:18:12,428 --> 07:18:16,765
fights to ensure that technology tangibly improves life in

5846
07:18:16,765 --> 07:18:20,436
communities. I spent over a decade in

5847
07:18:20,436 --> 07:18:22,571
transportation policy on the hill, in think tanks, in policy

5848
07:18:22,571 --> 07:18:27,443
groups at waymo and neuro, and even a former ride share driver.

5849
07:18:27,443 --> 07:18:30,513
so I have firsthand experience the challenges of providing

5850
07:18:30,513 --> 07:18:34,317
rides on the streets and look, I will say it plainly.

5851
07:18:34,317 --> 07:18:38,121
this is the most robust and rigorous aen to mouse vehicle

5852
07:18:38,121 --> 07:18:42,658
bill I have seen in the past decade at the local, state --

5853
07:18:42,658 --> 07:18:45,728
local or state levels. It is absolutely the most

5854
07:18:45,728 --> 07:18:49,932
ambitious in terms on of addressing terms of safety,

5855
07:18:49,932 --> 07:18:53,669
sustainability, issues of equity, and issues of investing

5856
07:18:53,669 --> 07:18:56,539
in the work force and investing in the local economy.

5857
07:18:56,539 --> 07:19:00,476
I do want to name what makes the zeh bait so hard.

5858
07:19:00,476 --> 07:19:06,282
chair allen, people tend to be on one side of the other.

5859
07:19:06,282 --> 07:19:10,420
and after my time in the industry, I think of autonomous

5860
07:19:10,420 --> 07:19:13,422
vehicles as the policy version of the inkblot test.

5861
07:19:13,422 --> 07:19:15,424
people look and see one of two things.

5862
07:19:15,424 --> 07:19:20,697
they see their hopes on accounts of being realized on safer

5863
07:19:20,697 --> 07:19:22,498
streets and independence for neighbors.

5864
07:19:22,498 --> 07:19:26,369
or they see every fear in frustration with the

5865
07:19:26,369 --> 07:19:28,971
transportation system and the politics and the economy as it

5866
07:19:28,971 --> 07:19:31,974
exists today. And it's put on one technology.

5867
07:19:31,974 --> 07:19:36,446
but the reality is going to work is somewhere in between.

5868
07:19:36,446 --> 07:19:40,717
and the policy choices we make today and throughout the year,

5869
07:19:40,717 --> 07:19:45,550
hopefully if the bill is passed, it's going to shape the future

5870
07:19:45,550 --> 07:19:48,725
of the technology, and if we want to steer towards the

5871
07:19:48,725 --> 07:19:52,729
benefits instead of the fears, we have to focus on the

5872
07:19:52,729 --> 07:19:56,329
regulation and simple policymaking, rather than

5873
07:19:56,466 --> 07:20:01,871
getting dragged in to the what ifs, when the status quo is

5874
07:20:01,871 --> 07:20:07,900
koszing us more in terms of lives lost, and people who can't

5875
07:20:07,900 --> 07:20:13,609
access jobs today, and of course, we're looking at how we

5876
07:20:17,200 --> 07:20:20,490
connect the economy in the challenging economy for all of

5877
07:20:20,490 --> 07:20:25,890
us. I do want to say I was honestly

5878
07:20:26,495 --> 07:20:30,433
puzzled to hear testimony today, to see if it reduces road

5879
07:20:30,433 --> 07:20:34,330
safety. It is exactly the opposite.

5880
07:20:41,711 --> 07:20:43,780
it gives them hours to take action.

5881
07:20:43,780 --> 07:20:47,717
and when I look at avs, I know if they are going to be safer.

5882
07:20:47,717 --> 07:20:52,855
because avs are going to help to reduce the distracted, reckless

5883
07:20:52,855 --> 07:20:57,600
drivers who I have to keep safe every single day, and day to

5884
07:20:57,600 --> 07:21:01,864
day, based on hundreds of millions of mieles, it shows thy

5885
07:21:01,864 --> 07:21:05,000
will continue to get better. I want to say, I know there are

5886
07:21:05,000 --> 07:21:09,800
doubts so let's walk through a few mechanisms.

5887
07:21:11,741 --> 07:21:16,345
pressure points. When a human driver crashes, we

5888
07:21:16,345 --> 07:21:18,547
might get a police report at best.

5889
07:21:18,547 --> 07:21:24,860
but an economy with an av permit would have to submit at crash

5890
07:21:24,860 --> 07:21:26,155
report every quarter to operate in the district.

5891
07:21:26,155 --> 07:21:30,893
number two, insurance coverage. A human driver is required to

5892
07:21:30,893 --> 07:21:34,493
carry about $25,000 of bodily injury coverage.

5893
07:21:35,564 --> 07:21:40,964
this bill requires them to cover $5 million of coverage.

5894
07:21:41,837 --> 07:21:44,907
that is 200 times more than people driving in d.c.

5895
07:21:44,907 --> 07:21:49,178
and unsafe behavior. Our region has one of the

5896
07:21:49,178 --> 07:21:54,450
highest rates of hit and run crashes in the region.

5897
07:21:54,450 --> 07:21:58,921
and most actually involve a hit and run according to a recent

5898
07:21:58,921 --> 07:22:02,570
aaa report. One of the tragedies occurred at

5899
07:22:02,570 --> 07:22:07,196
3:00 a.m. This morning. A human driver hit and killed a

5900
07:22:07,196 --> 07:22:09,465
person. And hit and run.

5901
07:22:09,465 --> 07:22:10,999
and they are searching for the driver.

5902
07:22:10,999 --> 07:22:16,672
this bill has a process and the oversight authority for

5903
07:22:16,672 --> 07:22:22,720
behaviors and respond to incidents and the authority to

5904
07:22:24,746 --> 07:22:30,485
suspend and revoke a permit. And I wish to share more of my

5905
07:22:30,485 --> 07:22:33,889
thoughts on the written testimony of my thoughts.

5906
07:22:33,889 --> 07:22:39,280
but the structure of a tmc with all the drivers, we are

5907
07:22:39,280 --> 07:22:42,497
optimizing for the economics of the vehicles, completely

5908
07:22:42,497 --> 07:22:46,697
different story. We have a few recommendations

5909
07:22:47,103 --> 07:22:49,772
for improvements we will send over.

5910
07:22:49,772 --> 07:22:53,842
but I want to thank you for your work on the issue, and the

5911
07:22:53,842 --> 07:22:57,450
ambitious scope of the bill and moving this discussion forward.

5912
07:22:57,450 --> 07:23:00,645
thank you. >> thank you very much.

5913
07:23:02,451 --> 07:23:07,322
and then, last -- talitha washington here in person.

5914
07:23:07,322 --> 07:23:10,459
>> chairman allen and members of the committee, thank you for the

5915
07:23:10,459 --> 07:23:16,459
opportunity to provide testimony on the autonomous vehicle act of

5916
07:23:18,134 --> 07:23:21,134
2026. My name is talitha washington,

5917
07:23:25,541 --> 07:23:29,741
and I co-chair the president's advisory council.

5918
07:23:30,110 --> 07:23:32,615
my testimony is offered for information and educational

5919
07:23:32,615 --> 07:23:36,487
purposes. I am not appearing as an

5920
07:23:36,487 --> 07:23:41,887
advocate for or against the legislation, nor after I

5921
07:23:42,426 --> 07:23:43,895
presents on behalf of howard university.

5922
07:23:43,895 --> 07:23:47,310
rather, I hope to share my perspective as the district

5923
07:23:47,310 --> 07:23:50,435
considers the next face of autonomous vehicle activity.

5924
07:23:50,435 --> 07:23:55,639
the question before us is larger than whether a vehicle can drive

5925
07:23:55,639 --> 07:23:59,239
itself. It is how emerging technologies

5926
07:24:02,180 --> 07:24:08,180
can be understood and evaluated. I would like to highlight

5927
07:24:10,522 --> 07:24:14,192
research, data. First, research can help us

5928
07:24:14,192 --> 07:24:18,463
understand how autonomous vehicles operate in a complex

5929
07:24:18,463 --> 07:24:21,463
environment. Howard university has promoted

5930
07:24:21,533 --> 07:24:23,933
safety. A tier 1 university

5931
07:24:24,268 --> 07:24:27,138
transportation center supported by the u.s. Department of

5932
07:24:27,138 --> 07:24:29,741
transportation. Through this work, howard

5933
07:24:29,741 --> 07:24:32,741
researchers studied transportation safety, human

5934
07:24:34,345 --> 07:24:38,482
machine interaction, travel behavior, demand modeling and

5935
07:24:38,482 --> 07:24:42,820
human systems. This reenfoinforces an importan

5936
07:24:44,889 --> 07:24:47,889
point. They involve human behavior,

5937
07:24:49,627 --> 07:24:51,695
infrastructure, accessibility, public safety and trust.

5938
07:24:51,695 --> 07:24:55,295
questions involves construction zones, changing roadway

5939
07:24:56,834 --> 07:25:00,434
conditions, communication with remote operators and

5940
07:25:00,572 --> 07:25:04,772
interactions with pedestrians and cycles will require

5941
07:25:05,777 --> 07:25:08,646
continued evaluation. Second, data can support

5942
07:25:08,646 --> 07:25:12,246
evidence-based decisionmaking. With aproempropriate privacy, a

5943
07:25:19,591 --> 07:25:22,259
protections, it may be examined with crash records, land use

5944
07:25:22,259 --> 07:25:24,996
information, and demographic information and community input.

5945
07:25:24,996 --> 07:25:29,534
it may provide greater insight in safety, mobility,

5946
07:25:29,534 --> 07:25:33,134
accessibility and operational outcomes across different

5947
07:25:33,271 --> 07:25:36,871
neighborhoods and population. Third, autonomous vehicles

5948
07:25:37,342 --> 07:25:39,610
create opportunities to strengthen the work force.

5949
07:25:39,610 --> 07:25:43,810
this emerging ecosystem will require expertise across

5950
07:25:48,420 --> 07:25:50,421
mathematics, artificial intelligence, transportation,

5951
07:25:50,421 --> 07:25:54,159
the social and behavioral sciences and public policy.

5952
07:25:54,159 --> 07:25:56,559
as transportation becomes increasin

5953
07:25:59,230 --> 07:26:02,767
increasingly connected, automated and data driven, the

5954
07:26:02,767 --> 07:26:05,437
work force and future generations of professionals

5955
07:26:05,437 --> 07:26:09,173
will need to understand not only how they function but how they

5956
07:26:09,173 --> 07:26:12,510
affect the communities where people live, work, learn and

5957
07:26:12,510 --> 07:26:15,647
travel. In closing, I'm not here to

5958
07:26:15,647 --> 07:26:18,647
recommend a particular policy outcome.

5959
07:26:18,717 --> 07:26:22,853
rather, I hope to provide connection to may inform future

5960
07:26:22,853 --> 07:26:27,124
discussions. The district is long a place for

5961
07:26:27,124 --> 07:26:29,600
ink innovation, public safety, and

5962
07:26:29,600 --> 07:26:31,729
knowledge to come together to address complex challenges.

5963
07:26:31,729 --> 07:26:35,533
the future of transportation will be shape bid advances in

5964
07:26:35,533 --> 07:26:39,537
technology and also our ability to understand the advances,

5965
07:26:39,537 --> 07:26:44,275
prepare people to work alongside them and use evidence to inform

5966
07:26:44,275 --> 07:26:46,544
decisions. As the technologies continue to

5967
07:26:46,544 --> 07:26:52,544
evolve, our shared goals should be to ensure that technological

5968
07:26:53,840 --> 07:26:57,284
progress translates to safer streets, greater opportunities

5969
07:26:59,900 --> 07:27:01,292
and more access for all residents.

5970
07:27:01,292 --> 07:27:04,280
thank you for the opportunity to testify.

5971
07:27:04,280 --> 07:27:05,430
>> thank you. Thanks to everybody on the

5972
07:27:05,430 --> 07:27:09,300
panel. I have a few questions.

5973
07:27:10,501 --> 07:27:14,773
mr. Saleem and faith gibson hubbard, both of you talked and

5974
07:27:14,773 --> 07:27:17,975
jobs. And I think it's -- we talked

5975
07:27:17,975 --> 07:27:22,514
about this a lot today. There is economic opportunity

5976
07:27:22,514 --> 07:27:26,451
that is an option here. That will be jobs that do get

5977
07:27:26,451 --> 07:27:28,853
created. And I also said, it will be a

5978
07:27:28,853 --> 07:27:31,323
disrupter in the work force, and there will be other jobs that

5979
07:27:31,323 --> 07:27:33,458
people have today that will be impacted.

5980
07:27:33,458 --> 07:27:38,463
we heard earlier from folks that are in drive-sharing space right

5981
07:27:38,463 --> 07:27:42,468
now who are opposed to this. They are concerned what it means

5982
07:27:42,468 --> 07:27:45,603
for their jobs. Both of you are people who work

5983
07:27:45,603 --> 07:27:50,341
hard and are thoughtful for the work force development in job

5984
07:27:50,341 --> 07:27:53,277
creation. In what ways are you looking

5985
07:27:53,277 --> 07:27:56,814
about the disruptive effect or the loss or change in jobs that

5986
07:27:56,814 --> 07:28:01,218
people will have and some of the strategies we take to help

5987
07:28:01,218 --> 07:28:06,424
people, either from a work force training or other ways to help

5988
07:28:06,424 --> 07:28:10,428
support working folks who very likely will have an impact, if

5989
07:28:10,428 --> 07:28:14,310
they have in this driving space. >> you know, I listened to

5990
07:28:14,310 --> 07:28:18,369
earlier testimony where a young lady spoke about -- she is a

5991
07:28:18,369 --> 07:28:21,772
young -- in security, and she was working part time job.

5992
07:28:21,772 --> 07:28:30,172
and if you look at what waymo have done and a good example, in

5993
07:28:30,448 --> 07:28:33,383
atlanta. Which my granddaughter is in

5994
07:28:33,383 --> 07:28:36,253
school in phoenix. They are taking uber drivers and

5995
07:28:36,253 --> 07:28:39,457
giving them full-time jobs. That is really reasonable, where

5996
07:28:39,457 --> 07:28:41,192
they don't have to work two jobs.

5997
07:28:41,192 --> 07:28:44,929
they pay them a decent salary. And the same thing with -- if

5998
07:28:44,929 --> 07:28:52,804
you look at d.c. For a good example, folks who may not have

5999
07:28:52,804 --> 07:28:57,542
jobs may not have a skill set to a certain degree, just like with

6000
07:28:57,542 --> 07:29:01,780
metro, when I first started. You could go in there with

6001
07:29:01,780 --> 07:29:05,149
maintenance and you have the ability to work your way up

6002
07:29:05,149 --> 07:29:10,622
without going to school. And I think waymo will provide

6003
07:29:10,622 --> 07:29:14,359
the studenopportunities. You can end up in customer

6004
07:29:14,359 --> 07:29:17,428
support, and fleet maintenance, and next thing you know, you are

6005
07:29:17,428 --> 07:29:22,499
a technician, and waymo pays you a decent salary.

6006
07:29:22,499 --> 07:29:25,836
a real good salary. When I first started, it was a

6007
07:29:25,836 --> 07:29:31,709
low level salary as a cleaner. And I left there, and I was a

6008
07:29:31,709 --> 07:29:36,509
lead mechanic leading inspections and providing a good

6009
07:29:36,714 --> 07:29:38,249
platform by my house at an early age.

6010
07:29:38,249 --> 07:29:41,652
and I think the same opportunity will afford other people the

6011
07:29:41,652 --> 07:29:44,520
same opportunity. >> thank you.

6012
07:29:45,274 --> 07:29:48,944
miss gibson hubbard. >> yeah, thank you so much for

6013
07:29:48,944 --> 07:29:51,880
the question. I was looking this weekend and I

6014
07:29:51,880 --> 07:29:55,285
did get a chance to be in a waymo.

6015
07:29:55,285 --> 07:29:58,487
and it is quite the experience. I think about jobs.

6016
07:29:58,487 --> 07:30:02,157
I want to make sure that we're not just talking about the jobs

6017
07:30:02,157 --> 07:30:06,895
that are on the lower end of the spectrum that will make it

6018
07:30:06,895 --> 07:30:10,899
harder for district residents to stay in the district of

6019
07:30:10,899 --> 07:30:16,171
columbia, but the spectrum around -- again, like I said,

6020
07:30:16,171 --> 07:30:20,971
the building, the maintaining, the deployments, the technology

6021
07:30:21,310 --> 07:30:26,710
of it all. And someone who has a middle

6022
07:30:26,716 --> 07:30:28,183
school- school-aged child, they are

6023
07:30:28,183 --> 07:30:31,720
talking about areas of interest in technology.

6024
07:30:31,720 --> 07:30:37,193
and so thinking about how to partner with public schools with

6025
07:30:37,193 --> 07:30:41,196
emerging areas of industry. And adult public charter schools

6026
07:30:41,196 --> 07:30:46,469
that can help residents be ready for the jobs that are available.

6027
07:30:46,469 --> 07:30:51,740
and a highlight in my testimony, around parameters ensuring there

6028
07:30:51,740 --> 07:30:54,810
is local hiring and training for folks to be ready with jobs.

6029
07:30:54,810 --> 07:30:59,100
we have done things with abr appren

6030
07:31:01,750 --> 07:31:04,688
apprenticeship, and investment council, and the greater

6031
07:31:04,688 --> 07:31:09,425
washington urban league. We have programs here with

6032
07:31:09,425 --> 07:31:11,560
entrepreneurship and other career pathways that we would

6033
07:31:11,560 --> 07:31:15,964
like to be a part of those experiences in making sure that

6034
07:31:15,964 --> 07:31:21,103
district residents are ready for the jobs and the contractual

6035
07:31:21,103 --> 07:31:25,303
opportunities. It's not just folks coming here

6036
07:31:25,374 --> 07:31:29,177
and opportunity. But we are building and

6037
07:31:29,177 --> 07:31:30,713
creating. And youth employment program,

6038
07:31:30,713 --> 07:31:33,490
organizations like the greater washington urban league.

6039
07:31:33,490 --> 07:31:36,318
the public charter schools for adults and many, many others

6040
07:31:36,318 --> 07:31:39,722
will help us ensure that the opportunities are really focused

6041
07:31:39,722 --> 07:31:44,727
on washingtonians, and those who have been not as close to the

6042
07:31:44,727 --> 07:31:49,198
opportunity. I do think that this, as mr.

6043
07:31:49,198 --> 07:31:53,300
saleem just mentioned, I think it will provide great

6044
07:31:53,300 --> 07:31:55,671
opportunities for those who have been just drivers for other

6045
07:31:55,671 --> 07:31:57,606
opportunities for them to expand their careers.

6046
07:31:57,606 --> 07:32:01,100
but I think again, making sure they are partnering with

6047
07:32:01,100 --> 07:32:06,882
organizations that can help them to be thoughtful about the work

6048
07:32:06,882 --> 07:32:10,850
force creation, and making should you it's good for

6049
07:32:10,850 --> 07:32:12,200
district residents. >> thank you very much for that.

6050
07:32:12,200 --> 07:32:17,420
I appreciate it. Let me turn to amman george.

6051
07:32:19,161 --> 07:32:22,970
I appreciate your testimony. And you talked about ways to

6052
07:32:22,970 --> 07:32:27,103
strengthen legislation to make it stronger for traffic safety.

6053
07:32:27,103 --> 07:32:32,503
earlier today, I had waymo representatives and tesla here,

6054
07:32:33,976 --> 07:32:41,176
I asked two of the questions. If it's an anton mutonomous veh

6055
07:32:43,252 --> 07:32:46,522
you can set it to not exceed the speed limit, correct?

6056
07:32:46,522 --> 07:32:50,459
and waymo said yes. I was startled that tesla said,

6057
07:32:50,459 --> 07:32:54,463
unless the flow of traffic have going faster.

6058
07:32:54,463 --> 07:32:57,466
that shouldn't count. You should set the speed limit.

6059
07:32:57,466 --> 07:32:59,669
I also asked about the bike infrastructure.

6060
07:32:59,669 --> 07:33:04,807
can you set it to make sure it does not go in at like lane?

6061
07:33:04,807 --> 07:33:08,944
and waymo said, correct, it will no go in a bike lane.

6062
07:33:08,944 --> 07:33:14,830
so there are ways we can make it clear that -- I think that is an

6063
07:33:14,830 --> 07:33:18,153
important part of managing our roadway in a way that -- as we

6064
07:33:18,153 --> 07:33:19,821
had the conversation earlier today.

6065
07:33:19,821 --> 07:33:21,856
it feels like it was ten hours ago.

6066
07:33:21,856 --> 07:33:24,960
but we're not looking for somewhere to be safer than the

6067
07:33:24,960 --> 07:33:27,290
worst driver. That is a low bar.

6068
07:33:27,290 --> 07:33:30,566
this has to be safer than the safest driver, and that accident

6069
07:33:30,566 --> 07:33:35,366
our expectation. I think you laid out specific

6070
07:33:36,839 --> 07:33:38,506
rec recommendations which I

6071
07:33:38,506 --> 07:33:43,306
appreciated. >> I am saying, that is what --

6072
07:33:46,514 --> 07:33:50,452
not block the bike lanes. But rather, they are excited to

6073
07:33:50,452 --> 07:33:53,322
continue the conversation about curb side access, which is not

6074
07:33:53,322 --> 07:33:57,793
an answer to that question. But I think, you know, if

6075
07:33:57,793 --> 07:34:01,930
they're willing to make that -- make those sorts of commitments,

6076
07:34:01,930 --> 07:34:06,534
I think you're right. Our goal should be that the cars

6077
07:34:06,534 --> 07:34:11,340
are rigorously rule following, and if the rules need to change,

6078
07:34:11,340 --> 07:34:14,276
that is a question for the council, and not for the

6079
07:34:14,276 --> 07:34:17,276
companies to take upon themse

6080
07:34:17,946 --> 07:34:23,152
themselves by programming the cars to comply with the laws

6081
07:34:23,152 --> 07:34:25,420
they like and not with the laws they don't.

6082
07:34:25,420 --> 07:34:30,225
and the ways to strengthen the bill, I suggested a few where I

6083
07:34:30,225 --> 07:34:33,762
think that language could be a little more explicit and clear.

6084
07:34:33,762 --> 07:34:37,299
I think it would be worth, like I said, having part of the

6085
07:34:37,299 --> 07:34:42,990
licensing process to involve the companies proactively disclosing

6086
07:34:44,973 --> 07:34:49,440
the situations where the cars are programmed not to follow

6087
07:34:49,440 --> 07:34:52,781
existing traffic rules. I think that is not part of the

6088
07:34:52,781 --> 07:34:55,851
application, but I think that is a reasonable ask from this city,

6089
07:34:55,851 --> 07:34:59,855
and any others that is considering licensing the

6090
07:34:59,855 --> 07:35:04,326
companies. To the extent that there can be

6091
07:35:04,326 --> 07:35:08,463
enforceable mechanisms to allow private citizens to allow them

6092
07:35:08,463 --> 07:35:13,201
to go straight to court when the companies are regularly

6093
07:35:13,201 --> 07:35:17,205
violating the traffic laws, rather than leaving it to what

6094
07:35:17,205 --> 07:35:20,876
seems to be a multi-step administrative process.

6095
07:35:20,876 --> 07:35:27,476
that would be helpful. I really do fear a world in

6096
07:35:27,749 --> 07:35:32,220
which our regulators can be captured by the biggest

6097
07:35:32,220 --> 07:35:34,423
companies in the world. >> I will say, at least in the

6098
07:35:34,423 --> 07:35:37,226
room, I heard it differently in the conversation around

6099
07:35:37,226 --> 07:35:43,632
programming it not -- you know, having the program not be such

6100
07:35:43,632 --> 07:35:45,967
that it is going to pick and choose the rules to follow.

6101
07:35:45,967 --> 07:35:48,837
and I specifically asked about blocking a bike lane.

6102
07:35:48,837 --> 07:35:53,992
I think what we talked and, I had a conversation earlier about

6103
07:35:53,992 --> 07:35:58,262
how do you distinguish between the precise language around not

6104
07:35:58,262 --> 07:36:01,133
exceeding the speed limit, not parking in a bike lane.

6105
07:36:01,133 --> 07:36:07,539
but the same time, in the same way that I expect the uber of

6106
07:36:07,539 --> 07:36:10,342
lyft driver to double park in front of my home when I'm

6107
07:36:10,342 --> 07:36:14,680
getting in and out. There is a reasonable stan sdar

6108
07:36:14,680 --> 07:36:18,617
there. And finding the lane between the

6109
07:36:18,617 --> 07:36:21,620
precision, and what most passengers expect that you will

6110
07:36:21,620 --> 07:36:24,555
going to pick up and drop off in front of my house and double

6111
07:36:24,555 --> 07:36:27,759
park for a moment. But certainly something we will

6112
07:36:27,759 --> 07:36:30,950
go back to. I don't want to have a system

6113
07:36:30,950 --> 07:36:32,430
that is -- maybe we are following the laws today.

6114
07:36:32,430 --> 07:36:36,968
and maybe we're not. That is the promise of this.

6115
07:36:36,968 --> 07:36:40,505
that it can be safe. We will follow up on that.

6116
07:36:40,505 --> 07:36:44,842
miss nigro, you scared me when you talked about how you have

6117
07:36:44,842 --> 07:36:48,442
your tesla drive you around town.

6118
07:36:49,315 --> 07:36:51,383
we had an interesting conversation today.

6119
07:36:51,383 --> 07:36:57,255
tesla will offer you something that they say is level 2, but in

6120
07:36:57,255 --> 07:37:00,726
reality, it's level 3. If you are driving around -- we

6121
07:37:00,726 --> 07:37:06,465
will follow up later. If you have your tesla driving

6122
07:37:06,465 --> 07:37:11,865
you around tuown making turns, e will follow up.

6123
07:37:13,271 --> 07:37:16,207
>> me and the hundreds of other people that are using it in the

6124
07:37:16,207 --> 07:37:17,742
city. >> yeah f you are doing it

6125
07:37:17,742 --> 07:37:20,679
illegally, I don't think you are intending to.

6126
07:37:20,679 --> 07:37:24,750
let's not get in ourselves in trouble here in the hearing.

6127
07:37:24,750 --> 07:37:26,217
>> they told me that is the level 2.

6128
07:37:26,217 --> 07:37:29,621
>> that is the trick. They like to tell people what a

6129
07:37:29,621 --> 07:37:33,625
level 2 is, but in fact you are going to level 3.

6130
07:37:33,625 --> 07:37:36,495
we are going to make sure we are not going to get new trouble

6131
07:37:36,495 --> 07:37:38,970
here. But I appreciate your support

6132
07:37:38,970 --> 07:37:43,167
for the overall legislation. And I think you're overall point

6133
07:37:43,167 --> 07:37:45,904
you are trying to make, you have confidence in a safe experience.

6134
07:37:45,904 --> 07:37:51,109
and you see that safety kind of as one of the big driving

6135
07:37:51,109 --> 07:37:54,446
factors here. >> it is my number one point.

6136
07:37:54,446 --> 07:37:57,849
from my perspective, I use it every day in the city.

6137
07:37:57,849 --> 07:38:01,586
and I also use it up and down the east coast and in new york

6138
07:38:01,586 --> 07:38:04,990
city where there is even more pedestrians.

6139
07:38:04,990 --> 07:38:09,190
so it is impressive. It updates continuously.

6140
07:38:10,796 --> 07:38:15,000
all the time, frankly. I have to be honest with you.

6141
07:38:15,000 --> 07:38:19,871
and there's not a hesitation with me because I would not put

6142
07:38:19,871 --> 07:38:23,675
myself or any of my passengers in jeopardy.

6143
07:38:23,675 --> 07:38:29,675
so I use the phrase very pro ped december d

6144
07:38:34,850 --> 07:38:36,888
-- pedestrian. I will stop on a dime when

6145
07:38:36,888 --> 07:38:41,827
someone steps in a crosswalk. >> I appreciate you sharing your

6146
07:38:41,827 --> 07:38:44,763
hypothetical level 3 operations up and down the east coast.

6147
07:38:44,763 --> 07:38:48,363
we will follow up afterwards too.

6148
07:38:49,330 --> 07:38:51,569
I want to -- let's see, michael cohen.

6149
07:38:51,569 --> 07:38:54,506
can you say more? I think you mentioned you were

6150
07:38:54,506 --> 07:38:56,641
recommending more public comment.

6151
07:38:56,641 --> 07:39:00,178
and I want to make sure you understood which section -- you

6152
07:39:00,178 --> 07:39:02,313
think we should have more public comment.

6153
07:39:02,313 --> 07:39:08,913
and you talked about having the ancs being notified about a

6154
07:39:10,455 --> 07:39:12,323
facility cited. Maybe -- say a little more about

6155
07:39:12,323 --> 07:39:15,794
what you mean by that. >> yeah, I mean, I think one of

6156
07:39:15,794 --> 07:39:22,267
the challenges I have seen -- and I'm relating this to a lyft

6157
07:39:22,267 --> 07:39:25,470
motivated location that is in my single-member district.

6158
07:39:25,470 --> 07:39:29,700
but there's not really a lot -- there's not really a good

6159
07:39:29,700 --> 07:39:35,607
mechanism in order to report or place concerns under concerns --

6160
07:39:36,214 --> 07:39:40,551
you know, ddot has been responsive, but there's in a

6161
07:39:40,551 --> 07:39:47,151
good way for residents to report -- this is -- charging

6162
07:39:49,427 --> 07:39:51,362
the maintenance depots and that sort of thing.

6163
07:39:51,362 --> 07:39:54,432
I think there is an opportunity to get things right when it

6164
07:39:54,432 --> 07:39:58,370
comes to -- when it comes to putting this -- the locations in

6165
07:39:58,370 --> 07:40:00,505
the district. So that is really what I'm

6166
07:40:00,505 --> 07:40:03,174
looking for. An opportunity for the

6167
07:40:03,174 --> 07:40:07,312
residents, and ancs to be able to say, hey, something's off at

6168
07:40:07,312 --> 07:40:10,582
this charging station or something is off.

6169
07:40:10,582 --> 07:40:13,452
I witnessed poor business practices, whatever.

6170
07:40:13,452 --> 07:40:18,255
I want to report that to ddot. I want to report to the city of

6171
07:40:18,255 --> 07:40:21,325
having a mechanism to do that. It's really what I'm after.

6172
07:40:21,325 --> 07:40:23,600
>> got it. Okay.

6173
07:40:23,600 --> 07:40:25,596
happy to follow-up more on that too.

6174
07:40:25,596 --> 07:40:30,680
I guess, trying to strike the right balance, between what do

6175
07:40:30,680 --> 07:40:34,872
we put -- I don't think an anc -- I love my ancs.

6176
07:40:34,872 --> 07:40:38,542
I don't think it's an approval process for citing.

6177
07:40:38,542 --> 07:40:42,881
that would have me concerned we may never get to a decision.

6178
07:40:42,881 --> 07:40:49,481
but at the same time, making sure you, neighbors, others, if

6179
07:40:50,288 --> 07:40:53,691
you are seeing something that is not correct, that there is a

6180
07:40:53,691 --> 07:40:58,970
clear outlet for that. Maybe we can follow up after to

6181
07:40:58,970 --> 07:41:01,365
big deeper in that. And mr. Rogers, I appreciate

6182
07:41:01,365 --> 07:41:06,165
your testimony. I take it as a compliment.

6183
07:41:10,842 --> 07:41:13,578
briefly, are there any specific weaknesses in the legislation

6184
07:41:13,578 --> 07:41:16,714
that you think need though be addressed or other things that

6185
07:41:16,714 --> 07:41:19,184
are highlighted throughout the day that you need to make sure

6186
07:41:19,184 --> 07:41:21,519
they can continuing to get attention?

6187
07:41:21,519 --> 07:41:23,388
>> well, thank you, mr. Chairman.

6188
07:41:23,388 --> 07:41:28,526
I do think that it is certainly an example of an excellent bill.

6189
07:41:28,526 --> 07:41:32,664
the fact is the bill -- say more, say more.

6190
07:41:32,664 --> 07:41:36,467
>> what's that? >> you are giving me a

6191
07:41:36,467 --> 07:41:38,203
compliment. I was saying, say more.

6192
07:41:38,203 --> 07:41:43,608
well, the fact of the matter is that back in 2016, 2017, I was

6193
07:41:43,608 --> 07:41:49,614
in a think tank that wrote some of the first recommendations on

6194
07:41:49,614 --> 07:41:52,951
the local and state and federal level.

6195
07:41:52,951 --> 07:41:58,690
and a lot of the things were given nine, ten years ago that

6196
07:41:58,690 --> 07:42:01,626
legislature picked up and put in a package.

6197
07:42:01,626 --> 07:42:04,509
looking at worker transition fund, and acknowledging the fact

6198
07:42:04,509 --> 07:42:08,781
of the matter is, it's going to take a long time for there to be

6199
07:42:08,781 --> 07:42:11,583
any displacement from the technology.

6200
07:42:11,583 --> 07:42:15,720
these things happen over the course of many, many, many years

6201
07:42:15,720 --> 07:42:17,790
when you look at scales of a fleet.

6202
07:42:17,790 --> 07:42:22,928
and more broadly, just looking, what is the future of urbanism

6203
07:42:22,928 --> 07:42:25,597
look like? A way that we can imagine when

6204
07:42:25,597 --> 07:42:29,868
something is new and better. If autonomous vehicles do make

6205
07:42:29,868 --> 07:42:34,339
it to where we can feel safer walking with kids and biking on

6206
07:42:34,339 --> 07:42:40,339
streets, you know, cyclists in san francisco and phoenix have

6207
07:42:42,147 --> 07:42:44,618
said as much, and that is incredible.

6208
07:42:44,618 --> 07:42:51,818
and the recommendations, one key point here is that it's not just

6209
07:42:51,957 --> 07:42:54,559
av avs are driven on the roads of

6210
07:42:54,559 --> 07:42:57,763
phoenix. Waymo, and other companies are

6211
07:42:57,763 --> 07:43:03,702
testing in london, which is a far more complex roadway system

6212
07:43:03,702 --> 07:43:09,775
than here, and also in japan and tokyo, and for us to think that

6213
07:43:09,775 --> 07:43:12,177
we are more complicated to tokyo.

6214
07:43:12,177 --> 07:43:14,180
look, I was a ride share driver here.

6215
07:43:14,180 --> 07:43:20,180
it ain't close to tokyo. And recommendations, I am happy

6216
07:43:22,320 --> 07:43:26,125
to see it discussed here. Our goals and the policy

6217
07:43:26,125 --> 07:43:31,630
mechanisms we use to achieve them conflict, and vehicle

6218
07:43:31,630 --> 07:43:34,533
crafts have been discussed on that front in terms how you have

6219
07:43:34,533 --> 07:43:40,720
to spread out a smaller fleet across more and more wards.

6220
07:43:40,720 --> 07:43:43,943
the sister organization of the innovation majority, the

6221
07:43:43,943 --> 07:43:48,143
innovation majority institute, did create an interactive

6222
07:43:49,348 --> 07:43:52,752
website, mobility mayor.com, where you can go and test out

6223
07:43:52,752 --> 07:43:55,752
this bill against hypothetical directions.

6224
07:43:55,821 --> 07:44:01,821
for how changing the fleet size could affect service needs

6225
07:44:02,270 --> 07:44:04,696
forward. We modeled it based upon recent

6226
07:44:04,696 --> 07:44:07,766
research based on density, and people in a ward, based on just

6227
07:44:07,766 --> 07:44:14,390
what we have seen so far in the data of av and ride share

6228
07:44:14,390 --> 07:44:19,846
appointments, what I would look like to scale up or down, to see

6229
07:44:19,846 --> 07:44:24,916
what the impacts will be. The it's a great way to help you

6230
07:44:24,916 --> 07:44:29,721
understand just what fleet caps do, and caps the number of

6231
07:44:29,721 --> 07:44:32,924
operators deal to how they deploy avs.

6232
07:44:32,924 --> 07:44:37,610
and I can stop there. I will have more thoughts on the

6233
07:44:37,610 --> 07:44:39,640
hybrid model as well. >> excellent.

6234
07:44:39,640 --> 07:44:41,867
I appreciate that. And happy to follow-up after the

6235
07:44:41,867 --> 07:44:45,471
hering as well to keep going, and I think we did see that

6236
07:44:45,471 --> 07:44:47,139
website. And the tool you created.

6237
07:44:47,139 --> 07:44:49,874
so thanks for helping put that together as well.

6238
07:44:49,874 --> 07:44:52,144
>> happy to hear. My pleasure.

6239
07:44:52,144 --> 07:44:56,148
>> and dr. Watson, I appreciate your testimony, and I know you

6240
07:44:56,148 --> 07:44:58,216
will follow up as we wrestle this with.

6241
07:44:58,216 --> 07:45:02,200
so a lot more witnesses. So I want to move to the next

6242
07:45:02,200 --> 07:45:06,820
panel as well. Thank you all very much.

6243
07:45:07,625 --> 07:45:13,565
next, let me call up zack reinstein who is online.

6244
07:45:13,565 --> 07:45:17,636
and david alpert who is also online.

6245
07:45:17,636 --> 07:45:23,360
michael petricone, senior vice pept of affairs of consumer

6246
07:45:26,511 --> 07:45:30,711
technology association. Jeb ory joining us online.

6247
07:45:34,519 --> 07:45:36,919
daift kasten. Anyone else?

6248
07:45:44,630 --> 07:45:51,263
we have cathy chase online. All right, let me check to see.

6249
07:46:03,749 --> 07:46:08,549
do I have abigail olvera here? Auguste rame?

6250
07:46:10,890 --> 07:46:13,890
come on up. Rameez tase?

6251
07:46:35,460 --> 07:46:37,982
all right. And hang with me.

6252
07:46:37,982 --> 07:46:42,782
I'm going to call a number more names.

6253
07:46:44,589 --> 07:46:47,589
corinna lathan here? Lucas pombo?

6254
07:46:48,660 --> 07:46:52,860
all right, come on up. Isaac wilkins?

6255
07:46:52,998 --> 07:46:58,605
all right, mr. Wilkins. All four chairs are filled now.

6256
07:46:58,605 --> 07:47:00,720
excellent. All right.

6257
07:47:00,720 --> 07:47:02,407
so we've got a couple folks online on zoom.

6258
07:47:02,407 --> 07:47:05,210
we have four people here. Perfect.

6259
07:47:05,210 --> 07:47:11,810
so zack reinstein, we will start with you when you're ready.

6260
07:47:13,685 --> 07:47:18,220
>> thanks, mr. Chair. I appreciate you holding this

6261
07:47:18,220 --> 07:47:21,260
hearing. I just want to say I'm here in

6262
07:47:21,260 --> 07:47:26,564
my personal capacity as a d.c. Resident who has used waymo in

6263
07:47:26,564 --> 07:47:30,350
phoenix and san francisco. As a trusted tester.

6264
07:47:30,350 --> 07:47:36,375
so I have been able to use it on the freeway when it was on the

6265
07:47:36,375 --> 07:47:38,977
freeway. My most impressive use of it,

6266
07:47:38,977 --> 07:47:43,849
when I was most impressed was in a costco parking lot and it

6267
07:47:43,849 --> 07:47:47,986
managed to navigate the hell that is a costco parking lot

6268
07:47:47,986 --> 07:47:52,391
very well. And I stopped and was incredibly

6269
07:47:52,391 --> 07:47:57,620
sensitive to all the pedestrians and children darting out and

6270
07:47:57,620 --> 07:48:00,662
carts. So any way, just incredible

6271
07:48:01,133 --> 07:48:05,933
technology. As a capital bike share user, I

6272
07:48:06,405 --> 07:48:10,476
find that the drivers in d.c. Are incredibly dangerous.

6273
07:48:10,476 --> 07:48:14,760
they are impatient and distracted driving.

6274
07:48:14,492 --> 07:48:19,163
I would much rather be dealing with an autonomous vehicle that

6275
07:48:19,163 --> 07:48:25,302
I know is programmed to stop at all stop signs and go the speed

6276
07:48:25,302 --> 07:48:29,240
limit and not try to run me off the road.

6277
07:48:29,240 --> 07:48:36,513
the only issue I ever had with waymos is that -- that they do

6278
07:48:36,513 --> 07:48:40,651
pull in bike leans occasionally. I heard from previous panelists

6279
07:48:40,651 --> 07:48:44,188
that you have taken that into account and will be ensuring

6280
07:48:44,188 --> 07:48:48,326
that waymo does not do that in the district, which I'm a huge,

6281
07:48:48,326 --> 07:48:52,262
huge fan of. I do agree with some of the

6282
07:48:52,262 --> 07:48:55,132
previous panelist that 200 vehicles is too few.

6283
07:48:55,132 --> 07:48:58,603
and I know you said that 1,000 might be too many.

6284
07:48:58,603 --> 07:49:03,941
so I think 500, 750 might be a good compromise to start with.

6285
07:49:03,941 --> 07:49:07,611
I do understand the time line laid out where you thought that

6286
07:49:07,611 --> 07:49:11,682
2028 might be the earliest. But I don't see why we have to

6287
07:49:11,682 --> 07:49:16,620
resign ourselves to 18 months from now to get everything taken

6288
07:49:16,620 --> 07:49:20,820
care of. I think maybe setting an

6289
07:49:21,358 --> 07:49:24,895
optimistic time line for next summer might be doable.

6290
07:49:24,895 --> 07:49:30,301
I would also highly encourage the council and staff to ride in

6291
07:49:30,301 --> 07:49:34,439
an autonomous vehicle if you haven't to better understand how

6292
07:49:34,439 --> 07:49:38,643
they perform on the road. My experience with them is

6293
07:49:38,643 --> 07:49:41,979
something but positive, and I look forward to having them in

6294
07:49:41,979 --> 07:49:44,515
the district. >> thank you very much.

6295
07:49:44,515 --> 07:49:48,115
next, let's turn to david alpert.

6296
07:49:54,580 --> 07:49:58,258
david, I think you're still on mute.

6297
07:49:58,662 --> 07:50:02,650
>> thank you. Chairperson allen, members of

6298
07:50:02,650 --> 07:50:05,200
the committee. My name is david alpert and I

6299
07:50:05,200 --> 07:50:09,873
support this bill and have a number of suggestions.

6300
07:50:09,873 --> 07:50:11,675
overall, the driblthistrict has opportunity to work with

6301
07:50:11,675 --> 07:50:16,213
companies to shape how the company operates in urban areas

6302
07:50:16,213 --> 07:50:21,753
such as d.c. They need to balance to ensure

6303
07:50:21,753 --> 07:50:23,487
that public policy has an active hand.

6304
07:50:23,487 --> 07:50:27,870
in 2019, ddot contracted with sustainable transportation,

6305
07:50:27,358 --> 07:50:32,429
which I led at the time to study the impact of avs.

6306
07:50:32,429 --> 07:50:38,101
the study concluded that avs are poised to provide benefits to

6307
07:50:38,101 --> 07:50:40,237
residents and businesses, including safety.

6308
07:50:40,237 --> 07:50:46,237
however, if unmanaged by public policy, avs have the potential

6309
07:50:46,511 --> 07:50:48,646
to cause significant harm as well.

6310
07:50:48,646 --> 07:50:50,781
increasing the vehicles travelled in the district by 60

6311
07:50:50,781 --> 07:50:54,585
to 100%. After all, the down side of a

6312
07:50:54,585 --> 07:50:58,989
long trip is far less when nobody has to drive.

6313
07:50:58,989 --> 07:51:03,127
if widespread public ownership of avs are fine, people may live

6314
07:51:03,127 --> 07:51:06,196
far from the city and endure long commutes since they can

6315
07:51:06,196 --> 07:51:10,534
work from the mobile offices all day or send vehicles circling

6316
07:51:10,534 --> 07:51:16,540
around in a lunch meeting. The bill today is not about

6317
07:51:16,540 --> 07:51:20,140
that, but taxi service brings harms.

6318
07:51:20,611 --> 07:51:24,810
so do av food deliveries. Something I want the bill to

6319
07:51:24,810 --> 07:51:26,550
address. I recommend the following

6320
07:51:26,550 --> 07:51:29,352
additions. First, require all avs to be

6321
07:51:29,352 --> 07:51:34,152
fully electric. The ones that are under testing

6322
07:51:34,158 --> 07:51:38,228
right now are fully electric. But we should ensure that is a

6323
07:51:38,228 --> 07:51:41,966
guarantee as more companies become part of the av

6324
07:51:41,966 --> 07:51:45,302
marketplace. Two, prohibit any company from

6325
07:51:45,302 --> 07:51:46,303
programming cars to break traffic rules.

6326
07:51:46,303 --> 07:51:49,707
you talked about this in the last panel and earlier in the

6327
07:51:49,707 --> 07:51:53,310
day. Current avs are law abiding but

6328
07:51:53,310 --> 07:51:57,515
also when there is a competitive market with many companies, one

6329
07:51:57,515 --> 07:52:01,118
might see an advantage to program vehicles to be

6330
07:52:01,118 --> 07:52:05,789
aggressive, to speed, to push through a yellow light or nose

6331
07:52:05,789 --> 07:52:09,126
through pedestrians. And tesla vehicles may already

6332
07:52:09,126 --> 07:52:13,326
do this. And three, ensure riders with

6333
07:52:16,867 --> 07:52:17,801
disabilities. That is discussed earlier.

6334
07:52:17,801 --> 07:52:20,470
and four, disclose the hail vehicles.

6335
07:52:20,470 --> 07:52:24,670
current law requires trip data to disclose.

6336
07:52:25,342 --> 07:52:29,814
av company be required to disclose all that now and in the

6337
07:52:29,814 --> 07:52:34,140
future. Five, clarify that may not stop

6338
07:52:34,418 --> 07:52:37,755
in crosswalks or bicycle lanes. And the bill right now says not

6339
07:52:37,755 --> 07:52:43,627
to stop in a travel lane. It could be miscon trued to say

6340
07:52:43,627 --> 07:52:49,900
the opposite, that it can stop in bicycle lanes if people don't

6341
07:52:49,900 --> 07:52:53,703
understand that travel lane includes bicycle lane.

6342
07:52:53,703 --> 07:52:59,110
allow ddot to prepare the curb sides for avs to prepare pickup

6343
07:52:59,110 --> 07:53:05,110
and dropoff zones. They must plan for a world of

6344
07:53:05,916 --> 07:53:08,316
rising construction -- congestion.

6345
07:53:10,121 --> 07:53:13,721
and shared lanes and congestion charges.

6346
07:53:14,592 --> 07:53:17,861
the counsel sill should continue to fund these and other

6347
07:53:17,861 --> 07:53:19,263
solutions. Thank you very much.

6348
07:53:19,263 --> 07:53:21,665
>> thank you very much. Appreciate that.

6349
07:53:21,665 --> 07:53:25,865
next, let me turn to michael petricone.

6350
07:53:26,203 --> 07:53:29,874
I may have mispronounced that. Please correct me.

6351
07:53:29,874 --> 07:53:32,275
all right. >> chairman allen and members on

6352
07:53:32,275 --> 07:53:35,813
of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify

6353
07:53:35,813 --> 07:53:38,813
today. Claim allen, I appreciate

6354
07:53:39,820 --> 07:53:41,552
thoughtful leadership on the issue and the time and care you

6355
07:53:41,552 --> 07:53:45,956
have devolted on the hearing. Sitting through ten hours of

6356
07:53:45,956 --> 07:53:48,559
testimony shows commitment to getting to right.

6357
07:53:48,559 --> 07:53:54,559
I'm the senior vice president of consumer affairs and cta.

6358
07:53:55,320 --> 07:53:59,832
we represent 1200 companies from start yups and leading

6359
07:54:00,771 --> 07:54:03,171
innovators including autonomous vehicles.

6360
07:54:03,574 --> 07:54:05,442
autonomous vehicles are no long ear future technology.

6361
07:54:05,442 --> 07:54:08,979
they are already making roads safe interproviding benefits in

6362
07:54:08,979 --> 07:54:12,182
communities across the country. And I would like to associate

6363
07:54:12,182 --> 07:54:18,182
myself with a testimony with others I heard this afternoon

6364
07:54:19,790 --> 07:54:23,805
regarding the proven safety benefitsle and why the issue

6365
07:54:23,805 --> 07:54:26,207
malters. More than 40,000 americans lose

6366
07:54:26,207 --> 07:54:32,207
their lives on the roads, including 22 tragedies in d.c.

6367
07:54:34,548 --> 07:54:39,754
alone, and the overwhelming are caused by human error.

6368
07:54:39,754 --> 07:54:43,900
and autonomous vehicles are saving lives that encourage the

6369
07:54:43,900 --> 07:54:49,296
safe and rapid deployment. Av rz viewed as a trajs poration

6370
07:54:49,296 --> 07:54:54,350
innovation, they should be recognized as a public health

6371
07:54:54,350 --> 07:54:56,103
break through. They have an advance in public

6372
07:54:56,103 --> 07:55:01,503
safety since the air bag. Avs are expanding indianapoepen

6373
07:55:07,515 --> 07:55:08,716
for seniors and the potential to strengthen the district's

6374
07:55:08,716 --> 07:55:13,187
economy, and making it easier for residents, and tourists and

6375
07:55:13,187 --> 07:55:14,989
visitors to reach restaurants and hotels.

6376
07:55:14,989 --> 07:55:20,610
over the years, d.c. Positioned themselves as a leader, and

6377
07:55:20,610 --> 07:55:25,666
being one of the first jurisdictions to employ them to

6378
07:55:25,666 --> 07:55:29,266
demonstrate the district welcomes emerging technologies.

6379
07:55:30,271 --> 07:55:34,608
I have a strong personnel interest in this, as a

6380
07:55:34,608 --> 07:55:40,130
decades-long resident of d.c. My family and I walk, run, bike,

6381
07:55:40,130 --> 07:55:41,949
and scooter on the streets every day.

6382
07:55:41,949 --> 07:55:47,354
I want the neighborhoods to be as safe as possible, whether

6383
07:55:47,354 --> 07:55:52,359
someone is riding a bike, that is why they have technologies

6384
07:55:52,359 --> 07:55:57,898
that are reducing crashes and improving the quality of life.

6385
07:55:57,898 --> 07:56:03,371
I have used the streets with uber and waymo and my experience

6386
07:56:03,371 --> 07:56:06,907
is safe and posty. I also join the other witnesses

6387
07:56:06,907 --> 07:56:10,844
who encourage all the stake holders to please ride in an av.

6388
07:56:10,844 --> 07:56:12,380
like, when you can. Just so you can see what the

6389
07:56:12,380 --> 07:56:18,380
experience is line like. I think I will be education

6390
07:56:18,652 --> 07:56:20,120
alabama. And d.c. Has an opportunity to

6391
07:56:20,120 --> 07:56:22,457
be one of the leading communities.

6392
07:56:22,457 --> 07:56:25,259
we appreciate the council leadership in developing the

6393
07:56:25,259 --> 07:56:28,996
regulatory frame work. We support the objective for the

6394
07:56:28,996 --> 07:56:31,465
safety in the district. As drafted, however, this bill,

6395
07:56:31,465 --> 07:56:35,535
there are several provisions to make deployment more difficult

6396
07:56:35,535 --> 07:56:40,274
than in other leading jurisdictions and we believe the

6397
07:56:40,274 --> 07:56:43,874
bill can achieve the safety goals.

6398
07:56:44,745 --> 07:56:49,483
enencourage the committee to make targeted changes and

6399
07:56:49,483 --> 07:56:54,283
recognize the extensive testing that companies have accumulated

6400
07:56:54,288 --> 07:56:58,492
in other states. Keep costs low, and provide

6401
07:56:58,492 --> 07:57:02,830
clear liability standards. We urge you to support the full

6402
07:57:02,830 --> 07:57:07,630
range of autonomous applications including goods delivery and

6403
07:57:08,769 --> 07:57:11,839
autonomous trucking. The council showed the business

6404
07:57:11,839 --> 07:57:17,978
model agnostic and ensure they meet the bill standard, and have

6405
07:57:17,978 --> 07:57:23,378
the flexibility to deployment, and some business models, some

6406
07:57:23,984 --> 07:57:27,584
prefer direct, and others prefer hybrid.

6407
07:57:27,788 --> 07:57:31,325
a huge transportation break through will benefit all d.c.

6408
07:57:31,325 --> 07:57:32,993
residents. The district has an opportunity

6409
07:57:32,993 --> 07:57:36,730
to british one of the leading frame works for avs.

6410
07:57:36,730 --> 07:57:41,402
throughout the history, the district is a leidner inknow

6411
07:57:41,402 --> 07:57:46,406
investigation, and in has an opportunity to demonstrate that

6412
07:57:46,406 --> 07:57:50,600
leadership. Thank you for your leadership

6413
07:57:51,545 --> 07:57:55,150
and I look forward to making avs in d.c. A reality.

6414
07:57:55,150 --> 07:57:57,952
>> great. Thank you very much.

6415
07:57:57,952 --> 07:58:02,556
jeff ory is joining us own line. >> thank you very much, chairman

6416
07:58:02,556 --> 07:58:05,559
allen and members of the committee.

6417
07:58:05,559 --> 07:58:10,698
my name is jeb ory and I'm a resident of ward 6, and a parent

6418
07:58:10,698 --> 07:58:14,435
of two children, and I have been in the district for nearly 15

6419
07:58:14,435 --> 07:58:17,438
years. I want to commend you, chairman,

6420
07:58:17,438 --> 07:58:20,841
for bringing this bill up to the committee for this discussion,

6421
07:58:20,841 --> 07:58:24,246
because I think it's critically important.

6422
07:58:24,246 --> 07:58:30,784
and I think echoing some points we heard before, from michael,

6423
07:58:30,784 --> 07:58:34,922
we're always outside walk, biking, running, driving, and to

6424
07:58:34,922 --> 07:58:38,192
have that -- to have the opportunity to do that in a

6425
07:58:38,192 --> 07:58:42,620
safer way is something that I think everyone can embrace.

6426
07:58:42,620 --> 07:58:45,332
and autonomous vehicles have clearly demonstrated they are

6427
07:58:45,332 --> 07:58:50,732
much safer than vehicles that you or I drive.

6428
07:58:52,730 --> 07:58:55,673
waymo's data, respently published data, 94% fewer

6429
07:58:57,544 --> 07:59:02,344
crashes can fewer injuries. And 84% fewer cyclist injuries,

6430
07:59:03,284 --> 07:59:06,884
and hugely beneficial to our society.

6431
07:59:08,290 --> 07:59:13,900
but perhaps most importantly, what bringing in autonomous

6432
07:59:13,360 --> 07:59:19,700
vehicles in d.c. Would do was change how people think of d.c.

6433
07:59:19,700 --> 07:59:22,236
michael mentioned that we would be one of the leaders on the

6434
07:59:22,236 --> 07:59:25,572
east coast by embracing this, and I think that is something we

6435
07:59:25,572 --> 07:59:28,242
should very much lean into. There is an opportunity for d.c.

6436
07:59:28,242 --> 07:59:31,578
to be a light house for technology on the east coast,

6437
07:59:31,578 --> 07:59:33,514
and this is exactly how we do that.

6438
07:59:33,514 --> 07:59:37,518
I think this is an especially critical because we need to

6439
07:59:37,518 --> 07:59:43,190
offset so much of the federal job leoss that happened over th

6440
07:59:43,190 --> 07:59:47,990
last year with doge and things like that.

6441
07:59:49,596 --> 07:59:52,600
so there an opportunity to transform how people think about

6442
07:59:52,600 --> 07:59:55,200
d.c. I first took a waymo two years

6443
07:59:55,200 --> 07:59:58,739
ago in phoenix with my family. We stepped out of the airport.

6444
07:59:58,739 --> 08:00:01,740
and it was like walking to the future.

6445
08:00:01,740 --> 08:00:05,146
but that was two years ago, so it was an opportunity for us to

6446
08:00:05,146 --> 08:00:06,614
level up and meet the opportunity today.

6447
08:00:06,614 --> 08:00:11,585
there are a few things I think other people

6448
08:00:11,585 --> 08:00:15,222
-- there are ways to make this bill even more effective.

6449
08:00:15,222 --> 08:00:20,928
one, reducing taxes, the per mile tax and existing fees to

6450
08:00:20,928 --> 08:00:25,900
make rides 30% more expensive before a trip even starts, that

6451
08:00:25,900 --> 08:00:28,835
is one thing to put more money into people's pockets.

6452
08:00:28,835 --> 08:00:30,638
the second, lifting the vehicle cap.

6453
08:00:30,638 --> 08:00:36,638
200 seems to be an arbitrary or -- arbitrarily low number.

6454
08:00:37,153 --> 08:00:39,553
500 or 750. And the timing.

6455
08:00:43,592 --> 08:00:47,229
could we do this sooner than january 2028?

6456
08:00:47,229 --> 08:00:49,799
what do we need to spend that time for?

6457
08:00:49,799 --> 08:00:52,735
can we move more quickly to bring this technology and the

6458
08:00:52,735 --> 08:00:55,638
effect it will have into d.c. Much sooner?

6459
08:00:55,638 --> 08:00:59,238
thank you. Chair allen: thank you.

6460
08:00:59,809 --> 08:01:07,900
next we have cathy chase who I think is joining us online.

6461
08:01:08,500 --> 08:01:13,622
ms. Chase: I am. Its not letting my video --

6462
08:01:13,622 --> 08:01:17,822
there, perfect. Just checking, the timer says

6463
08:01:18,293 --> 08:01:19,928
three minutes. Do I get five?

6464
08:01:19,928 --> 08:01:23,332
chair allen: you do, we will adjust that here.

6465
08:01:23,332 --> 08:01:29,204
ms. Chase: thank you so much per good afternoon chair allen, and

6466
08:01:29,204 --> 08:01:34,443
members of the council paradigm kathy chase, president of

6467
08:01:34,443 --> 08:01:37,913
advocates for highway and auto safety headquartered in d.c.,

6468
08:01:37,913 --> 08:01:40,649
with the law enforcement, safety groups and insurance companies

6469
08:01:40,649 --> 08:01:45,988
and agents working to advance policy, laws and regulations to

6470
08:01:45,988 --> 08:01:48,457
prevent crashes, save lives, curb injuries and reduce

6471
08:01:48,457 --> 08:01:52,194
associated costs. Thank you for holding today's

6472
08:01:52,194 --> 08:01:55,397
hearing and the opportunity to testify on bill 26-0684, the

6473
08:01:55,397 --> 08:01:58,997
autonomous vehicle deployment authorization act of 2026.

6474
08:02:00,602 --> 08:02:04,606
I would like to say at the outset advocates is not for or

6475
08:02:04,606 --> 08:02:08,977
against the deployment of autonomous vehicles or av's.

6476
08:02:08,977 --> 08:02:13,982
our focus is on ensuring they are safe for all route users and

6477
08:02:13,982 --> 08:02:17,152
deliver on promised benefits including accessibility, equity,

6478
08:02:17,152 --> 08:02:20,752
preserving worker rights and ensuring sustainable

6479
08:02:21,623 --> 08:02:25,823
transportation among others. Currently av safety performance

6480
08:02:27,290 --> 08:02:27,963
on reliably are largely unknown to the public.

6481
08:02:27,963 --> 08:02:33,963
our main data sources arentsa's standing general order and the

6482
08:02:36,905 --> 08:02:39,507
media. According to data collected by

6483
08:02:39,507 --> 08:02:44,307
the sgo, there been 2574 crashes involving automated driving

6484
08:02:46,815 --> 08:02:51,150
systems oravs and396 with advanced driver assistance

6485
08:02:53,589 --> 08:02:57,327
systems through may 15, 20 26 these include if t9 crashes

6486
08:02:57,327 --> 08:03:00,662
resulting in an to -- in a fatality.

6487
08:03:00,662 --> 08:03:06,662
some are under investigation. From media sources we know ads

6488
08:03:12,941 --> 08:03:16,344
have caused crashes and consternation and of driven into

6489
08:03:16,344 --> 08:03:18,948
work zones, emergency responders and active police scenes and

6490
08:03:18,948 --> 08:03:25,353
over the july 4 holidayan ad drove into live fireworks with a

6491
08:03:25,353 --> 08:03:28,490
passenger on board and one caught on fire after driving

6492
08:03:28,490 --> 08:03:32,270
into fireworks and another caused massive congestion by

6493
08:03:32,270 --> 08:03:37,366
blocking a key parking area. Leaders have raised serious

6494
08:03:37,366 --> 08:03:42,538
safety concerns and this was done during a planned holiday

6495
08:03:42,538 --> 08:03:44,907
event. The district has numerous

6496
08:03:44,907 --> 08:03:52,107
similar planned events as well as many unique to the area such

6497
08:03:52,248 --> 08:03:55,284
as parades and protests resulting in road closures.

6498
08:03:55,284 --> 08:03:59,187
other cities have experienced av's illegally passing blocked

6499
08:03:59,187 --> 08:04:02,592
school buses and blocking ambulances responding to a mass

6500
08:04:02,592 --> 08:04:06,792
shooting. Last weekntsa issued a call to

6501
08:04:07,797 --> 08:04:11,934
action with numerous instances of av's that blocked of the

6502
08:04:11,934 --> 08:04:14,636
paths of ambulances and firefighters were failed to

6503
08:04:14,636 --> 08:04:18,207
respond to basic safety conditions like flashing lights,

6504
08:04:18,207 --> 08:04:20,750
flares, smoke, fire and traffic cones.

6505
08:04:20,750 --> 08:04:25,130
the letter noted quote an av that cannot safely interact with

6506
08:04:25,130 --> 08:04:29,184
first responders is a danger to the general public, unquote.

6507
08:04:29,184 --> 08:04:31,420
we agree. The collection of data is

6508
08:04:31,420 --> 08:04:33,422
essential to make informed policy decisions.

6509
08:04:33,422 --> 08:04:38,628
we cannot rely on claims by the av industry their vehicles will

6510
08:04:38,628 --> 08:04:42,640
be safed or than humans. Trust but verify.

6511
08:04:42,640 --> 08:04:46,235
av proponents claim they are safer because they don't get

6512
08:04:46,235 --> 08:04:48,237
tired, distracted or drive impaired.

6513
08:04:48,237 --> 08:04:55,111
while that may be true, there may be other types of. Crashes

6514
08:04:55,111 --> 08:04:56,912
that otherwise sober and alert and engaged drivers would avoid

6515
08:04:56,912 --> 08:05:01,283
av's, billion-dollar pieces of equipment with years of

6516
08:05:01,283 --> 08:05:04,787
research, should be compared to the best drivers, not the worst

6517
08:05:04,787 --> 08:05:07,389
or average drivers. In addition to comprehensive

6518
08:05:07,389 --> 08:05:12,789
data collection, and policy to safeguard operations, which must

6519
08:05:14,630 --> 08:05:19,768
include setting minimum safety standards, has not been set.

6520
08:05:19,768 --> 08:05:23,405
this inaction underscores the vital role of states, cities in

6521
08:05:23,405 --> 08:05:26,608
the district and taking action to protect road users and

6522
08:05:26,608 --> 08:05:31,408
informs our policy position against preemption on localities

6523
08:05:32,781 --> 08:05:35,217
poised to do so especially in the absence of robust federal

6524
08:05:35,217 --> 08:05:39,417
standards. With regards to bill 26-0684 we

6525
08:05:40,622 --> 08:05:42,424
submitted a letter with recommendations to improve the

6526
08:05:42,424 --> 08:05:46,295
level of safety including ddot should determine an appropriate

6527
08:05:46,295 --> 08:05:50,899
threshold for assessing ac risks, testing should be done in

6528
08:05:50,899 --> 08:05:55,699
an appropriate sampling of conditions and crash and

6529
08:05:55,703 --> 08:05:59,575
incident reporting and transparency should be approved.

6530
08:05:59,575 --> 08:06:02,177
any permit for driverless operation should be predicated

6531
08:06:02,177 --> 08:06:04,713
on safe operation during the testing phase that requires a

6532
08:06:04,713 --> 08:06:07,713
human operator. Similarly authorization for

6533
08:06:09,584 --> 08:06:11,720
commercial operations should be predicated on safe operations

6534
08:06:11,720 --> 08:06:15,457
were driverless testing. And, providing more information

6535
08:06:15,457 --> 08:06:19,327
regarding remote personnel and what safety deficiencies they

6536
08:06:19,327 --> 08:06:22,598
are addressing along with restrictions on the number of

6537
08:06:22,598 --> 08:06:27,998
vehicles an individual is managing and limits hours of

6538
08:06:28,536 --> 08:06:29,338
sources. Absent these protections we risk

6539
08:06:29,338 --> 08:06:33,208
the safety of road users and their acceptance of what av's

6540
08:06:33,208 --> 08:06:37,478
may be able to accomplish. In closing, advancing safety and

6541
08:06:37,478 --> 08:06:40,482
technological innovation must be compatible goals and not

6542
08:06:40,482 --> 08:06:41,583
trade-offs. Thank you.

6543
08:06:41,583 --> 08:06:47,583
chair allen: thank you next may turn to auguste rame.

6544
08:06:51,229 --> 08:06:54,829
>> I aim a resident and transitrider.

6545
08:06:58,837 --> 08:07:06,244
I work with metro dcpa. D.c. Voters made it clear in the

6546
08:07:06,244 --> 08:07:12,384
primaries they believe in the ability to build a better city.

6547
08:07:12,384 --> 08:07:16,888
this bill could not stray further from those beliefs.

6548
08:07:16,888 --> 08:07:21,688
it hands billion-dollar companies including lyft and ube

6549
08:07:22,761 --> 08:07:26,932
r -- to further underpay them and opens the door for av's to

6550
08:07:26,932 --> 08:07:32,332
replace drivers. A labor impact study has yet to

6551
08:07:34,206 --> 08:07:37,206
be traveled. It is insufficient.

6552
08:07:42,748 --> 08:07:45,818
what will thousands of workers who have so much to lose who

6553
08:07:45,818 --> 08:07:48,253
will lose their livelihoods say about this bill?

6554
08:07:48,253 --> 08:07:52,490
on equity it would let waymo serve only the wealthiest while

6555
08:07:52,490 --> 08:07:57,362
leaving behind those who have been ignored or punished.

6556
08:07:57,362 --> 08:08:02,868
councilmember allen, I'm glad to see the equity provision in your

6557
08:08:02,868 --> 08:08:07,572
bill, but how are these prohibitively expensive waymo

6558
08:08:07,572 --> 08:08:13,110
worth it for residents who have been underserved by transit for

6559
08:08:13,110 --> 08:08:17,150
decades by racist urban highways and suffer from violence,

6560
08:08:17,150 --> 08:08:21,815
insufficient transit coverage? How will it serve wheelchair

6561
08:08:23,555 --> 08:08:26,124
users who after years of advocacy don't have adequate

6562
08:08:26,124 --> 08:08:29,994
service? People in the city deserve so

6563
08:08:29,994 --> 08:08:35,994
much more than an unattainable price tag on freedom of

6564
08:08:36,670 --> 08:08:38,871
movement. You were here when uber first

6565
08:08:38,871 --> 08:08:43,275
came to the city. Any benefits will be for the few

6566
08:08:43,275 --> 08:08:47,130
and not the many. The impact of mass drop-offs

6567
08:08:47,130 --> 08:08:50,470
will be disastrous. More cars has never been the

6568
08:08:50,470 --> 08:08:53,470
solution. These driverless cars are

6569
08:08:53,552 --> 08:08:57,752
inaccessible and unaffordable and harm the region.

6570
08:08:58,824 --> 08:09:04,563
I urge this committee to work on condition pricing, to make buses

6571
08:09:04,563 --> 08:09:08,867
fast, frequent and free, and are working system for the working

6572
08:09:08,867 --> 08:09:13,670
class. If this committee feels it must

6573
08:09:15,306 --> 08:09:17,976
pass this legislation I urge it to work closely with advocates

6574
08:09:17,976 --> 08:09:21,576
and unions, policymakers, legislators, works and

6575
08:09:27,185 --> 08:09:31,385
operations. We deserve way more than waymo.

6576
08:09:32,824 --> 08:09:36,461
thank you. Chair allen: thank you very

6577
08:09:36,461 --> 08:09:39,898
much. Next I have lucas pombo.

6578
08:09:39,898 --> 08:09:42,898
>> hello. Good afternoon, chairman allen

6579
08:09:49,374 --> 08:09:52,344
and committee members, I'm lucas pombo, research fellow at a

6580
08:09:52,344 --> 08:09:55,480
think tank where I work on transportation policy, though

6581
08:09:55,480 --> 08:09:58,550
I'm testifying here in my personal capacity.

6582
08:09:58,550 --> 08:10:01,419
thank you for the opportunity to testify on this bill, the

6583
08:10:01,419 --> 08:10:03,989
autonomous vehicle deployment authorization act of 2026.

6584
08:10:03,989 --> 08:10:06,258
I will be submitting more detailed written testimony but

6585
08:10:06,258 --> 08:10:11,830
today I want to focus on the timeline of commercial av

6586
08:10:11,830 --> 08:10:16,100
permits. It I support the passage of this

6587
08:10:16,100 --> 08:10:20,900
bill but with changes. In 2020, the autonomous vehicle

6588
08:10:23,575 --> 08:10:25,610
testing program require ddot to submit a report on how to safely

6589
08:10:25,610 --> 08:10:31,100
deploy autonomous vehicles by october 2022, and to create a

6590
08:10:32,183 --> 08:10:34,453
testing framework and permitting process for autonomous vehicle

6591
08:10:34,453 --> 08:10:38,557
testing the district. For reasons still unclear ddot

6592
08:10:38,557 --> 08:10:40,460
submitted a report which included a report of testing

6593
08:10:40,460 --> 08:10:44,329
conditions in other places, but did not meet the required

6594
08:10:44,329 --> 08:10:46,598
recommendations and submitted that in april this year, almost

6595
08:10:46,598 --> 08:10:51,398
four years late. The av testing process and

6596
08:10:51,837 --> 08:10:54,973
permits didn't happen which is why they are in this one and I

6597
08:10:54,973 --> 08:11:00,973
would like to further add the proposed bill, this bill,

6598
08:11:02,948 --> 08:11:04,217
administrator bodies may need motivation to respond in timely

6599
08:11:04,217 --> 08:11:07,217
faction -- fashion to requirements.

6600
08:11:07,252 --> 08:11:12,652
the proposed bill states in the proposed amendment online 399,

6601
08:11:12,691 --> 08:11:16,940
if the office of an ministry to hearings fails to hold a hearing

6602
08:11:16,940 --> 08:11:19,898
within 90 days of a ddot determination, the appeal is

6603
08:11:19,898 --> 08:11:22,768
successful, enforcement action is automatically reversed.

6604
08:11:22,768 --> 08:11:25,504
it also requires ddot to extend testing permits if an applicant

6605
08:11:25,504 --> 08:11:32,704
rep -- has not received response in a timely fashion on line 174.

6606
08:11:32,811 --> 08:11:36,181
those mirror permitting best practices at federal and state

6607
08:11:36,181 --> 08:11:39,181
levels. In california the permit

6608
08:11:40,185 --> 08:11:42,187
streamlining act requires anybody issuing a development

6609
08:11:42,187 --> 08:11:45,190
permit to deem a permit complete or name deficiencies within 30

6610
08:11:45,190 --> 08:11:48,790
days. An department is deemed approved

6611
08:11:48,928 --> 08:11:53,398
after 60 or 180 days depending on the size of the permit if not

6612
08:11:53,398 --> 08:11:56,998
approved or denied. The federal communications

6613
08:11:58,400 --> 08:12:01,473
commission requires clocks with wireless providers able to take

6614
08:12:01,473 --> 08:12:05,770
governments to court if they failed to respond or denied new

6615
08:12:05,770 --> 08:12:09,277
wireless structures and reasonable amount of time.

6616
08:12:09,448 --> 08:12:16,480
62 -- 60 to 150 days. Ddot has a record that has -- I

6617
08:12:18,890 --> 08:12:20,692
asked this council to treat the creation of the permit process

6618
08:12:20,692 --> 08:12:25,300
the same way it treats the handling permits themselves.

6619
08:12:25,300 --> 08:12:30,702
if the district makes -- fails to make available a testing

6620
08:12:30,702 --> 08:12:32,971
permit then those activities should be presumed lawful

6621
08:12:32,971 --> 08:12:36,108
subject to all other statutory requirements of safety and

6622
08:12:36,108 --> 08:12:40,908
insurance and testing already written into -- written.

6623
08:12:42,547 --> 08:12:45,150
thank you for your time and I welcome questions or follow-ups.

6624
08:12:45,150 --> 08:12:48,750
chair allen: thank you. Isaac wilkins.

6625
08:12:50,474 --> 08:12:54,945
good afternoon-evening. >> I was under the impression I

6626
08:12:54,945 --> 08:12:58,449
had a little more time so I will try to get through this quickly.

6627
08:12:58,449 --> 08:13:03,821
good afternoon, chairperson alen and members of the committee.

6628
08:13:03,821 --> 08:13:08,626
I appreciate the opportunity to testify and willingness for the

6629
08:13:08,626 --> 08:13:14,298
committee to address this issue. My name is isaac wilkins, I,gig

6630
08:13:14,298 --> 08:13:20,105
economy driver and I have worked in the gig economy over six

6631
08:13:20,105 --> 08:13:24,400
years competing over 6000 rides. Across the district in many

6632
08:13:24,400 --> 08:13:26,243
regions in the country. My testimony is not about

6633
08:13:26,243 --> 08:13:30,460
whether autonomous vehicles should exist, but how government

6634
08:13:30,460 --> 08:13:32,816
-- government should govern technological transitions.

6635
08:13:32,816 --> 08:13:35,216
innovation can improve transportation.

6636
08:13:36,387 --> 08:13:38,790
my question is if the district has given the same level of

6637
08:13:38,790 --> 08:13:42,526
consideration to the people who will experience this

6638
08:13:42,526 --> 08:13:45,462
technological transition as it has to the technology itself.

6639
08:13:45,462 --> 08:13:48,632
first I remain concerned about safety.

6640
08:13:48,632 --> 08:13:49,799
while legislation contains significant provisions,

6641
08:13:49,799 --> 08:13:53,399
autonomous vehicles have experienced well publicized

6642
08:13:54,400 --> 08:13:57,400
incidents with emergency vehicle obstructions.

6643
08:13:58,143 --> 08:14:01,811
how will they respond when blocking an ambulance, or

6644
08:14:01,811 --> 08:14:03,981
officers responding to an emergency?

6645
08:14:03,981 --> 08:14:08,152
how will they safely navigate the unique traffic patterns,

6646
08:14:08,152 --> 08:14:09,819
pedestrian activity, construction zones and roadway

6647
08:14:09,819 --> 08:14:14,558
conditions that make d.c. Unlike any other city?

6648
08:14:14,558 --> 08:14:16,760
these are questions that deserve attention as commercial

6649
08:14:16,760 --> 08:14:21,560
deployment is considered. My second and biggest concern,

6650
08:14:22,566 --> 08:14:26,766
according to the data, approximately 35,000 gig workers

6651
08:14:29,973 --> 08:14:33,573
have received income from app-based platforms, $1.1

6652
08:14:33,977 --> 08:14:38,177
billion in economic activity. Despite this significant

6653
08:14:39,490 --> 08:14:42,553
contribution to the workforce fund, it is surprisingly

6654
08:14:42,553 --> 08:14:46,153
underdeveloped. The bill outlines broad goals

6655
08:14:46,591 --> 08:14:49,660
for workforce development like vocational planning and training

6656
08:14:49,660 --> 08:14:54,365
but few details regarding how workers will be supported.

6657
08:14:54,365 --> 08:14:56,734
more concerning, legislation directs ddot to publish a

6658
08:14:56,734 --> 08:15:02,134
support -- a report 180 days after commercial av deployment

6659
08:15:02,573 --> 08:15:05,476
begins. Workers should not have to wait

6660
08:15:05,476 --> 08:15:08,879
six months for the government to begin evaluating workforce

6661
08:15:08,879 --> 08:15:12,783
impacts. The question is not how we

6662
08:15:12,783 --> 08:15:15,419
respond to workforce displacement once it occurs.

6663
08:15:15,419 --> 08:15:19,957
how do we ensure workforce considerations are implemented

6664
08:15:19,957 --> 08:15:23,360
into the policy before deployment begins?

6665
08:15:23,360 --> 08:15:25,964
that question becomes more important when examining the

6666
08:15:25,964 --> 08:15:29,833
structure of the legislation, which establishes approximately

6667
08:15:29,833 --> 08:15:34,838
$30 million in application and permit fees with the district's

6668
08:15:34,838 --> 08:15:39,809
current five purchase bidding av operators with a reoccurring

6669
08:15:39,809 --> 08:15:44,609
$.15 vmt tax. My point is not the revenue,

6670
08:15:46,650 --> 08:15:49,319
rather the legislation carefully defines how revenue will be

6671
08:15:49,319 --> 08:15:53,519
generated while providing few implementation details regarding

6672
08:15:55,192 --> 08:15:57,393
how workforce development funds will support workers affected by

6673
08:15:57,393 --> 08:16:02,193
the transition. One question I continue to think

6674
08:16:02,533 --> 08:16:04,535
about is how the committee evaluated experiences of other

6675
08:16:04,535 --> 08:16:06,770
jurisdictions when developing this.

6676
08:16:06,770 --> 08:16:10,607
new york city oversees one of the largest for-hire

6677
08:16:10,607 --> 08:16:13,144
transportation systems, yet has taken a more cautious approach

6678
08:16:13,144 --> 08:16:18,315
to commercial av deployment. What lessons did the committee

6679
08:16:18,315 --> 08:16:20,751
draw from jurisdictions like new york city in determining the

6680
08:16:20,751 --> 08:16:22,886
district is prepared to move forward?

6681
08:16:22,886 --> 08:16:26,691
four quick questions. Did ddot conduct a work impact

6682
08:16:26,691 --> 08:16:29,426
analysis? How many at risk workers will be

6683
08:16:29,426 --> 08:16:33,260
affected? What workers or represented --

6684
08:16:33,430 --> 08:16:35,766
were workers representatives consulted?

6685
08:16:35,766 --> 08:16:38,350
how did the drive for-hire vehicle shape workforce

6686
08:16:38,350 --> 08:16:42,835
provisions of the bill? My recommendations are three.

6687
08:16:43,774 --> 08:16:45,509
first establish a permanent autonomous vehicle workforce

6688
08:16:45,509 --> 08:16:50,909
advisory task force composed of workforce drivers, av operators,

6689
08:16:50,948 --> 08:16:55,148
stakeholders. Second require ddot to have a

6690
08:16:58,188 --> 08:17:01,258
comprehensive workforce assessment and transition plan

6691
08:17:01,258 --> 08:17:04,620
before large-scale deployment, and third, dedicate a defined

6692
08:17:04,620 --> 08:17:06,463
percentage of workforce development fund revenues to

6693
08:17:06,463 --> 08:17:11,335
support current and future at risk workers through transition

6694
08:17:11,335 --> 08:17:15,873
assistance and worker specific benefits including paid sick

6695
08:17:15,873 --> 08:17:18,809
leave, minimum wage earning standards and other protections.

6696
08:17:18,809 --> 08:17:25,549
in closing I believe av's have a place in the future of

6697
08:17:25,549 --> 08:17:27,284
transportation, however the success of this legislation

6698
08:17:27,284 --> 08:17:30,521
should not be measured solely by whether av's operate safely or

6699
08:17:30,521 --> 08:17:33,891
efficiently. It should also be measured by

6700
08:17:33,891 --> 08:17:37,162
whether the district governs this transition in a way that

6701
08:17:37,162 --> 08:17:41,165
intentionally considers the people affected by it.

6702
08:17:41,165 --> 08:17:43,301
the district demonstrated it knows how to prepare technology

6703
08:17:43,301 --> 08:17:47,501
for deployment. The question is whether our

6704
08:17:47,571 --> 08:17:50,540
policymaking process gives equal consideration to the people

6705
08:17:50,540 --> 08:17:53,430
whose lives and livelihoods will be shaped by that transition.

6706
08:17:53,430 --> 08:17:56,579
innovation and worker rejection should advance together, not on

6707
08:17:56,579 --> 08:18:00,183
separate timelines. Thank you and I welcome

6708
08:18:00,183 --> 08:18:02,453
questions. Chair allen: thanks everybody

6709
08:18:02,453 --> 08:18:07,580
for your testimony. I might work backwards, think

6710
08:18:07,580 --> 08:18:12,458
you for your testimony. The introduced version of the

6711
08:18:14,231 --> 08:18:19,737
legislation, you rightly point out the workforce fund is broad,

6712
08:18:19,737 --> 08:18:22,272
intentionally so, actually. When we introduced it we wanted

6713
08:18:22,272 --> 08:18:27,672
to say, there is a fund. The actual implementation

6714
08:18:27,844 --> 08:18:32,983
details are the goal of holding a hearing is to get feedback.

6715
08:18:32,983 --> 08:18:35,252
those are the types of things we look for.

6716
08:18:35,252 --> 08:18:41,759
so I take your point but also want to say the limited -- the

6717
08:18:41,759 --> 08:18:45,862
limits are to be broad and get feedback from a lot of folks.

6718
08:18:45,862 --> 08:18:49,166
ddot legislation requiresddot and the department of for-hire

6719
08:18:49,166 --> 08:18:54,238
vehicles and others to come up with reports and recommendations

6720
08:18:54,238 --> 08:19:00,838
to help inform that. You are correct it is a little

6721
08:19:01,610 --> 08:19:02,662
open. That was a little intentional so

6722
08:19:02,662 --> 08:19:07,968
we can get feedback like yours and others to fill that out, so

6723
08:19:07,968 --> 08:19:11,872
when we move a committee print forward later, hopefully it will

6724
08:19:11,872 --> 08:19:15,943
reflect more details. So your recommendations are very

6725
08:19:15,943 --> 08:19:23,143
welcome at this stage. I will give you a chance if you

6726
08:19:24,840 --> 08:19:27,654
wanted to respond. Mr. Wilkins: I work in policy as

6727
08:19:27,654 --> 08:19:30,540
well. A little different.

6728
08:19:31,892 --> 08:19:37,832
I understand being broad because there are particulars to work

6729
08:19:37,832 --> 08:19:41,432
out. However, I think that the

6730
08:19:43,637 --> 08:19:47,175
district has not developed the infrastructure in regards to

6731
08:19:47,175 --> 08:19:50,578
regulations yet to be able to make this introduction to have

6732
08:19:50,578 --> 08:19:54,778
av's on the commercial side of things.

6733
08:19:55,182 --> 08:19:58,986
when we are talk about displacing 35,000 drivers with

6734
08:19:58,986 --> 08:20:04,725
such vague language around what a workforce fund -- if the

6735
08:20:04,725 --> 08:20:09,463
estimates are right you say $30 million the program is set to

6736
08:20:09,463 --> 08:20:13,200
have for the five different av operators we should have more

6737
08:20:13,200 --> 08:20:17,400
specifics around or I would hope to have more specifics around

6738
08:20:17,400 --> 08:20:20,874
what the fund will be dealing with because it is displacing a

6739
08:20:20,874 --> 08:20:23,477
lot of drivers. I think and I guess a follow-up

6740
08:20:23,477 --> 08:20:28,877
question would be, this -- would this be regulation?

6741
08:20:29,750 --> 08:20:32,886
if there was no workforce impact analysis done before the set

6742
08:20:32,886 --> 08:20:37,825
date for deployment what is the confidence residents should have

6743
08:20:37,825 --> 08:20:39,894
around this being a smooth transition?

6744
08:20:39,894 --> 08:20:45,894
chair allen: one recommendation from an earlier panel was the

6745
08:20:46,734 --> 08:20:49,969
workplace impact report we have in the bill should be pegged to

6746
08:20:49,969 --> 08:20:53,440
a date prior to permits being issued.

6747
08:20:53,440 --> 08:20:57,878
we are taking that to look at the order of things.

6748
08:20:57,878 --> 08:21:02,315
the intention was to have that, to bring in different

6749
08:21:02,315 --> 08:21:03,650
stakeholders to have a voice in shaping what that would look

6750
08:21:03,650 --> 08:21:07,250
like. They could come in prescriptive

6751
08:21:08,723 --> 08:21:11,123
language, regulations, different agencies.

6752
08:21:12,559 --> 08:21:14,928
it is a mix and that is why we hold a hearing to see what

6753
08:21:14,928 --> 08:21:17,998
people recommend. Your testimony is well-timed and

6754
08:21:17,998 --> 08:21:22,360
valuable. Mr. Wilkins: if I can, I

6755
08:21:22,360 --> 08:21:27,274
appreciate that you're taking the time to do that.

6756
08:21:27,274 --> 08:21:29,609
expressing a little concerned because there has been -- the

6757
08:21:29,609 --> 08:21:34,281
drive for-hire vehicle agency has made advancements in regards

6758
08:21:34,281 --> 08:21:39,530
to giving a solution to support the transition.

6759
08:21:39,530 --> 08:21:44,453
we now have carry for-hire operators under the jurisdiction

6760
08:21:44,825 --> 08:21:48,425
of the drive for-hire vehicle agency.

6761
08:21:51,565 --> 08:21:54,234
I think things are moving increasingly fast and not

6762
08:21:54,234 --> 08:21:57,638
considering the workers of the core part of this and I

6763
08:21:57,638 --> 08:22:02,443
understand the impact report and that is great but I think this

6764
08:22:02,443 --> 08:22:08,443
deserves detail like solutions. My question, and I won't belabor

6765
08:22:09,584 --> 08:22:14,721
this, I can put it in my comments I send, but when they

6766
08:22:14,721 --> 08:22:17,570
say vocational training what does that look like?

6767
08:22:17,570 --> 08:22:21,796
what are vocational trainings you have further gig workers

6768
08:22:21,796 --> 08:22:24,865
that are 65 and over? Not saying it is not possible

6769
08:22:24,865 --> 08:22:30,938
but recognize we are like kids sometimes, so engaged with a new

6770
08:22:30,938 --> 08:22:35,420
toy we don't recognize we have other problems to deal with.

6771
08:22:35,420 --> 08:22:39,613
I'm not sangamon against av's, but there needs to be a slow,

6772
08:22:39,613 --> 08:22:41,949
phased approach to consider the workers.

6773
08:22:41,949 --> 08:22:47,200
chair allen: I appreciate that. We had a lot of witnesses tell

6774
08:22:47,200 --> 08:22:50,357
me how slow we are moving, and how painful it is and it has to

6775
08:22:50,357 --> 08:22:54,557
move faster. Probably means we are about

6776
08:22:55,428 --> 08:22:58,298
right in terms of our timing of a bunch of folks tell me a going

6777
08:22:58,298 --> 08:23:01,236
too slow and some say too fast. All that is part of the feedback

6778
08:23:01,236 --> 08:23:04,705
we are getting. I would welcome your testimony

6779
08:23:04,705 --> 08:23:06,140
in writing to so we can add it to the record.

6780
08:23:06,140 --> 08:23:09,140
mr. Pombo, appreciate your testimony.

6781
08:23:11,246 --> 08:23:15,582
on one hand I like the idea of having that shot clock ticking

6782
08:23:15,582 --> 08:23:17,252
down for an agency to take action.

6783
08:23:17,252 --> 08:23:21,522
on the other, this is such a big deal, I would not be comfortable

6784
08:23:21,522 --> 08:23:28,261
with an idea where, if an agency does not get something done,

6785
08:23:28,261 --> 08:23:30,330
they automatically get a permit to operate.

6786
08:23:30,330 --> 08:23:33,333
I think the stakes are too high to allow that.

6787
08:23:33,333 --> 08:23:35,468
part of my job is oversight to make sure agencies are doing

6788
08:23:35,468 --> 08:23:40,340
what they are supposed to do. The spirit of what you are

6789
08:23:40,340 --> 08:23:43,770
recommending is keep compelling action but I think the specifics

6790
08:23:43,770 --> 08:23:47,140
of allowing a permit to move forward would make me very

6791
08:23:47,140 --> 08:23:52,414
uncomfortable. This is such a big deal I can't

6792
08:23:52,620 --> 08:23:55,555
just affirmatively let the permit go and start operation if

6793
08:23:55,555 --> 08:23:57,557
we don't have these pieces in place.

6794
08:23:57,557 --> 08:23:58,493
I will give you a chance to respond.

6795
08:23:58,493 --> 08:24:02,963
mr. Pombo: I definitely understand that and in part that

6796
08:24:02,963 --> 08:24:08,963
kind of is the philosophy behind shot clock's -- clocks.

6797
08:24:09,936 --> 08:24:14,574
you're more likely to do your job in a timely fashion of the

6798
08:24:14,574 --> 08:24:20,574
consequences for not doing that is something you don't want.

6799
08:24:20,781 --> 08:24:25,652
I understand as it pertains to ddot you would not want the shot

6800
08:24:25,652 --> 08:24:32,252
clock to expire and allow av's without the rules you would

6801
08:24:32,392 --> 08:24:35,992
want. If you are truly that

6802
08:24:37,131 --> 08:24:39,700
uncomfortable with that you would not want to have a shot

6803
08:24:39,700 --> 08:24:45,338
clock, I would like to see more guardrails are consequences for

6804
08:24:45,338 --> 08:24:48,241
ddot if they fail to do their job.

6805
08:24:48,241 --> 08:24:54,241
my concern is, given the last time this committee instructed

6806
08:24:54,348 --> 08:24:59,190
ddot to crate a permit, they did not create any permits.

6807
08:24:59,190 --> 08:25:03,689
I guess now there is a deadline to create a permit, but I think

6808
08:25:03,689 --> 08:25:07,894
any reasonable reading of the previous attempt to require

6809
08:25:07,894 --> 08:25:12,447
permits to be created would have been less than six years.

6810
08:25:12,447 --> 08:25:16,385
I'm not that consoled by, tell them a little harder to do their

6811
08:25:16,385 --> 08:25:21,122
jobs this time. At the end of the day, if there

6812
08:25:21,122 --> 08:25:25,528
is a private company doing something, you can find them and

6813
08:25:25,528 --> 08:25:30,598
pull their permits but no one can pull the permits for ddot.

6814
08:25:30,598 --> 08:25:32,801
I would like more consequences that would be uncomfortable for

6815
08:25:32,801 --> 08:25:36,805
this committee or ddot or whoever to make sure we get the

6816
08:25:36,805 --> 08:25:42,544
permits we are asking for. Chair allen: I hear you and the

6817
08:25:42,544 --> 08:25:46,744
nature of the competing legislative and executive

6818
08:25:47,749 --> 08:25:50,652
co-competing branches of government are a constant

6819
08:25:50,652 --> 08:25:54,210
struggle, I hear you. Appreciate your testimony.

6820
08:25:54,210 --> 08:25:56,625
did you submit it? >> not yet but I will.

6821
08:25:56,625 --> 08:26:02,625
chair allen: to kathy chase, somebody has to make a

6822
08:26:04,990 --> 08:26:08,302
determination if av's can operate safely in the district

6823
08:26:08,302 --> 08:26:14,302
so your recommendation is they need some standard against which

6824
08:26:15,511 --> 08:26:18,647
we are measuring safety. We have this conversation

6825
08:26:18,647 --> 08:26:22,247
earlier today. What is the measurable,

6826
08:26:23,651 --> 08:26:28,390
quantitative thing we are saying this is safer than?

6827
08:26:28,390 --> 08:26:31,590
my point is I have a bunch of dangerous drivers on the road

6828
08:26:31,590 --> 08:26:33,728
right now and if my goal is to say are you safer than that

6829
08:26:33,728 --> 08:26:35,664
driver out there it is a pretty low bar.

6830
08:26:35,664 --> 08:26:42,938
if the promise is, these are going to be so safe, do have

6831
08:26:42,938 --> 08:26:46,274
thoughts on a requirement for av safety to be quantified in a way

6832
08:26:46,274 --> 08:26:50,474
they must exceed safety by 10 times, 100 times?

6833
08:26:50,679 --> 08:26:55,350
what is an objective and quantifiable metric you would be

6834
08:26:55,350 --> 08:26:59,154
recommending? Ms. Chase: it is a good question

6835
08:26:59,154 --> 08:27:00,689
and a difficult one to answer or it would have been answered

6836
08:27:00,689 --> 08:27:03,890
already. Chair allen: correct.

6837
08:27:03,625 --> 08:27:08,430
ms. Chase: our recommendation is for ddot to take the data of

6838
08:27:08,430 --> 08:27:13,769
crashes happening in the district and take away the

6839
08:27:13,769 --> 08:27:17,369
impaired, the distracted, the speeding crashes.

6840
08:27:18,473 --> 08:27:22,643
how does that driver perform and then it should exceed that

6841
08:27:22,643 --> 08:27:28,430
because at a minimum, autonomous vehicle companies are saying

6842
08:27:28,183 --> 08:27:33,583
their drivers don't drive while doing things humans do.

6843
08:27:35,570 --> 08:27:40,610
if the companies are claiming they are performing 93% better,

6844
08:27:40,610 --> 08:27:44,399
that should be a minimum if they are already doing that now.

6845
08:27:44,399 --> 08:27:51,599
chair allen: part of what we wrestle with is, what do we

6846
08:27:53,241 --> 08:27:57,345
specifically outline in legislation versus what do we

6847
08:27:57,345 --> 08:28:01,883
say to an agency that is supposed to have the expertise.

6848
08:28:01,883 --> 08:28:07,957
on the flipside, I don't think it is overly prescriptive at all

6849
08:28:07,957 --> 08:28:11,993
to say, you can allow autonomous vehicles to exceed the speed

6850
08:28:11,993 --> 08:28:14,629
limit. You cannot allow autonomous

6851
08:28:14,629 --> 08:28:20,102
vehicles to park in a bike lane or run through a crosswalk or a

6852
08:28:20,102 --> 08:28:23,104
stop sign. We can be prescriptive in some

6853
08:28:23,104 --> 08:28:27,443
of the ways, but I will have to work on this over the next

6854
08:28:27,443 --> 08:28:30,779
couple weeks and months around discretion between allowing an

6855
08:28:30,779 --> 08:28:35,450
agency to set regulations and how we define the safety.

6856
08:28:35,450 --> 08:28:40,489
ms. Chase: I agree with you and appreciate how thoughtful your

6857
08:28:40,489 --> 08:28:44,689
being, and listening to the input today.

6858
08:28:46,595 --> 08:28:48,663
we are more than glad to continue to work with you and

6859
08:28:48,663 --> 08:28:52,733
your staff in furtherance of our shared goal of making these as

6860
08:28:52,733 --> 08:28:56,137
safe as possible. Chair allen: thank you.

6861
08:28:56,137 --> 08:29:00,337
mr. Ory, thank you for your testimony.

6862
08:29:00,675 --> 08:29:02,744
some of your recommendations were consistent with what we

6863
08:29:02,744 --> 08:29:07,544
heard from a few people over the day.

6864
08:29:07,949 --> 08:29:13,154
especially when it comes to what should an initial fleet size be.

6865
08:29:13,154 --> 08:29:17,358
I think there has been a good conversation around, are we able

6866
08:29:17,358 --> 08:29:21,295
to achieve our overall policy goals with a fleet cap of 200 or

6867
08:29:21,295 --> 08:29:25,101
should that go up? There is a compelling argument

6868
08:29:25,101 --> 08:29:29,237
that 200 might mean you can't reach especially equitable

6869
08:29:29,237 --> 08:29:32,837
response times. Geographically across the entire

6870
08:29:33,410 --> 08:29:38,446
city with a fleet would we will take a look at that one.

6871
08:29:38,446 --> 08:29:45,460
I'm not convinced the vehicle miles tax will somehow be cost

6872
08:29:45,530 --> 08:29:49,253
prohibitive for entrance to the market place.

6873
08:29:49,858 --> 08:29:54,528
I think we have big companies that are pretty major

6874
08:29:54,528 --> 08:29:57,865
international corporations that want to see them operate in the

6875
08:29:57,865 --> 08:30:00,935
district. I'm not as compelled on that but

6876
08:30:00,935 --> 08:30:05,440
the fleet cap makes sense and the other pieces.

6877
08:30:05,440 --> 08:30:10,240
we are talking about amazon, tesla and google.

6878
08:30:11,946 --> 08:30:18,546
these are not tiny companies. Mr. Ory: fair, but everyone else

6879
08:30:19,688 --> 08:30:25,880
is riding, so those prices will get passed on.

6880
08:30:26,294 --> 08:30:28,764
I do think finding the right mix of price that would make it

6881
08:30:28,764 --> 08:30:34,340
possible for people to ride across the district is very

6882
08:30:34,340 --> 08:30:35,103
important. Your points about equity are

6883
08:30:35,103 --> 08:30:38,103
great. Av's can create opportunities

6884
08:30:40,841 --> 08:30:46,715
for people to tail these cars across the district in areas

6885
08:30:46,715 --> 08:30:52,715
that have been challenging to get, ubers, lyft, what not.

6886
08:30:54,556 --> 08:30:59,356
I think finding the right mix is important.

6887
08:30:59,627 --> 08:31:04,427
chair allen: david alpert, you had specific recommendations.

6888
08:31:05,100 --> 08:31:08,100
is your testimony already submitted?

6889
08:31:09,400 --> 08:31:11,139
I think we accidentally moved you into a different side.

6890
08:31:11,139 --> 08:31:16,539
will get you back. Mr. Petricone, thank you for

6891
08:31:17,120 --> 08:31:20,120
your testimony. You mentioned freight.

6892
08:31:21,792 --> 08:31:27,792
I am not prepared in this legislation to move toward

6893
08:31:28,165 --> 08:31:32,403
autonomous freight delivery. We are talking about ups and

6894
08:31:32,403 --> 08:31:36,841
fedex trucks, 18 wheelers. I don't think there has been any

6895
08:31:36,841 --> 08:31:40,311
testing of that in the district so I'm not comfortable with that

6896
08:31:40,311 --> 08:31:44,982
element paradigm more focused on the passenger vehicles thus far

6897
08:31:44,982 --> 08:31:47,918
but I take your point that you are looking at the bigger

6898
08:31:47,918 --> 08:31:51,518
picture. I think the introduced version

6899
08:31:52,456 --> 08:31:57,328
of the bill did not specify that so I think it is reasonable.

6900
08:31:57,328 --> 08:32:00,664
it is one of the areas we have to clean up and clarify because

6901
08:32:00,664 --> 08:32:04,264
I'm not prepared for freight. >> [indiscernible]

6902
08:32:08,405 --> 08:32:13,770
>> I know it is a process, a step-by-step process.

6903
08:32:13,770 --> 08:32:18,749
the goal come everybody's goal, is to realize the full economic

6904
08:32:18,749 --> 08:32:20,751
and public benefits of autonomous vehicle technology

6905
08:32:20,751 --> 08:32:21,852
and that includes all of the applications.

6906
08:32:21,852 --> 08:32:25,923
chair allen: possibly. I might not be there on all

6907
08:32:25,923 --> 08:32:28,923
applications. Mr. Alpert, sorry, we

6908
08:32:32,364 --> 08:32:36,167
excellently moved you. I've got you back.

6909
08:32:36,167 --> 08:32:38,568
you laid out a series of specific recommendations, I

6910
08:32:38,568 --> 08:32:40,906
appreciate it. Have you submitted your

6911
08:32:40,906 --> 08:32:46,344
testimony yet in writing? Mr. Alpert: yes, and I can

6912
08:32:46,344 --> 08:32:48,450
include graphs and more specifics on the submitted

6913
08:32:48,450 --> 08:32:51,645
testimony page. Chair allen: thank you.

6914
08:32:53,500 --> 08:32:57,721
I love graphs, appreciate it. I think the accessibility, you

6915
08:32:57,721 --> 08:33:00,524
highlighted that, is important. We had a good conversation with

6916
08:33:00,524 --> 08:33:05,864
several panels. I don't pretend that have -- to

6917
08:33:05,864 --> 08:33:10,568
have the exact solution yet so I think it is important.

6918
08:33:10,568 --> 08:33:15,940
>> tier earlier question about the freight, I was not

6919
08:33:15,940 --> 08:33:20,411
testifying about freight, but I did mention that in the past,

6920
08:33:20,411 --> 08:33:26,160
years ago people were talking about having the ability for an

6921
08:33:26,160 --> 08:33:29,353
autonomous pizza van to pull up. May be you punch in a code and

6922
08:33:29,353 --> 08:33:33,824
open it up. It seems no one is trying to

6923
08:33:33,824 --> 08:33:37,628
launch that now, but perhaps the legislation could speak to --

6924
08:33:37,628 --> 08:33:42,700
that is not yet legalized. 5, 10 years ago they were

6925
08:33:42,700 --> 08:33:47,500
talking about it. Chair allen: mr. Weinstein --

6926
08:33:50,640 --> 08:33:54,345
reinstein, thank you for testimony as well.

6927
08:33:54,345 --> 08:33:55,446
your comments echoed those of many today.

6928
08:33:55,446 --> 08:34:03,246
mr. Reinstein: yes, on the fleet size and bike lanes, as well as

6929
08:34:03,454 --> 08:34:06,657
trying to bring the timeline forward if possible.

6930
08:34:06,657 --> 08:34:09,394
you were pessimistic on that, but I like to be optimistic.

6931
08:34:09,394 --> 08:34:13,594
chair allen: I'm an optimistic guy, too.

6932
08:34:14,899 --> 08:34:17,869
my point was more realistic around the timeline from the

6933
08:34:17,869 --> 08:34:22,339
legislative calendar. Even if this council in the fall

6934
08:34:22,339 --> 08:34:26,677
votes to approve this, we go through two readings, have to

6935
08:34:26,677 --> 08:34:33,684
have the mayor sign it. For d.c. Laws, congress likes to

6936
08:34:33,684 --> 08:34:35,520
congress and does not meet often.

6937
08:34:35,520 --> 08:34:39,323
the congressional review period would take us into the spring if

6938
08:34:39,323 --> 08:34:42,693
not late spring before would become actual implemented law

6939
08:34:42,693 --> 08:34:47,832
which means your down to 8, 9 months for ddot and others to do

6940
08:34:47,832 --> 08:34:52,320
all the pieces. The january 1, 2028 is somewhat

6941
08:34:52,770 --> 08:34:56,908
of a realistic timeframe, as well as to provide certainty for

6942
08:34:56,908 --> 08:35:00,544
people because if anything, the last couple years around this

6943
08:35:00,544 --> 08:35:02,880
issue have been defined by uncertainty.

6944
08:35:02,880 --> 08:35:06,851
we will take a look at that. Your testimony echoes what we

6945
08:35:06,851 --> 08:35:09,385
have heard from a couple folks. So we will look at that.

6946
08:35:09,385 --> 08:35:14,591
mr. Reinstein: I would also like to echo one of the previous

6947
08:35:14,591 --> 08:35:20,831
panelist who said ddot was directed to give out some of

6948
08:35:20,831 --> 08:35:26,337
these permits by the executive branch and they didn't do that.

6949
08:35:26,337 --> 08:35:30,641
I don't know if there's a stronger way to compel them to.

6950
08:35:30,641 --> 08:35:33,744
I would really hate to see ddot sit on this again.

6951
08:35:33,744 --> 08:35:37,344
chair allen: thank you very much.

6952
08:35:39,516 --> 08:35:41,952
thank you everybody for your testimony today and appreciate

6953
08:35:41,952 --> 08:35:44,352
your time. Thank you.

6954
08:35:45,155 --> 08:35:51,755
let me turn to our next panel. I've got phillip wilcox.

6955
08:35:52,429 --> 08:35:57,229
amanda wilson. Cesar toledo, I think is joining

6956
08:36:00,905 --> 08:36:03,305
us online. Jennifer cooper.

6957
08:36:10,848 --> 08:36:13,248
john morris. Sol eure-raker.

6958
08:36:24,261 --> 08:36:26,661
nyah wilson. Brandon wu.

6959
08:36:31,268 --> 08:36:35,468
michael ludgardo. I think he is online.

6960
08:36:38,242 --> 08:36:43,420
jason odom. Dish a paris -- da'shai paris.

6961
08:36:47,818 --> 08:36:50,955
and heather foote, who I see right there.

6962
08:36:50,955 --> 08:36:57,610
ms. Foote, if you want to come up and grab a chair.

6963
08:36:57,610 --> 08:37:02,633
mr. Wilcox and then ms. Wilson. Mr. Wilcox we will start with

6964
08:37:02,633 --> 08:37:08,633
you when you are ready. Mr. Wilcox: thank you, chair

6965
08:37:09,573 --> 08:37:13,110
allen and members of the committee, I appreciate you

6966
08:37:13,110 --> 08:37:16,710
taking time to hear our testimonies.

6967
08:37:17,147 --> 08:37:20,117
my name is phillip wilcox and I recently wrote and published a

6968
08:37:20,117 --> 08:37:25,517
book called the future is autonomous which probably covers

6969
08:37:25,923 --> 08:37:28,926
companies in the u.s. And china to develop and deploy autonomous

6970
08:37:28,926 --> 08:37:33,126
vehicles. It also deals with the politics

6971
08:37:34,500 --> 08:37:40,605
at the local level, the d.c. Bill, laboratories of democracy

6972
08:37:41,145 --> 08:37:47,745
and at the federal level and the international space with china

6973
08:37:49,200 --> 08:37:53,958
in competition in that regard. Self-promotion aside, we have

6974
08:37:53,958 --> 08:37:58,129
heard a lot over the past 10 hours about the safety benefits

6975
08:37:58,129 --> 08:38:01,729
of av's. For example, av's, over 40,000

6976
08:38:06,710 --> 08:38:10,108
people a year are killed on road accidents in the u.s. And

6977
08:38:10,108 --> 08:38:14,245
whether you are for or against this bill we can agree it is

6978
08:38:14,245 --> 08:38:19,645
completely unacceptable and av's are never drunk, distracted or

6979
08:38:19,718 --> 08:38:26,318
drowsy so they have that benefit , but enough has been spoken

6980
08:38:26,657 --> 08:38:28,659
about that. I don't have much to add to

6981
08:38:28,659 --> 08:38:32,859
that. I became interested in av's in

6982
08:38:35,133 --> 08:38:41,733
2012 after an accident left me with low vision and I quickly

6983
08:38:42,673 --> 08:38:48,673
became aware of the lack of accessible, affordable and safe

6984
08:38:49,948 --> 08:38:53,218
transportation options for people with low vision in the

6985
08:38:53,218 --> 08:38:56,818
blind community as well as others.

6986
08:39:02,600 --> 08:39:05,830
we have learned about benefits from those in the blind and low

6987
08:39:05,830 --> 08:39:10,702
vision community that av companies have work to do with

6988
08:39:10,702 --> 08:39:16,441
people -- for people with vision impairments but I think av's

6989
08:39:16,441 --> 08:39:21,446
have the potential to offer people more freedom and

6990
08:39:21,446 --> 08:39:25,460
opportunities. For all of their educational,

6991
08:39:27,518 --> 08:39:33,518
career or social goals. Av's can also be used in

6992
08:39:33,525 --> 08:39:37,328
conjunction with public transit options for people like me who

6993
08:39:37,328 --> 08:39:42,268
do not live within walking distance of a metro station.

6994
08:39:42,268 --> 08:39:49,741
one example I've seen is from a metro station with an av shuttle

6995
08:39:49,741 --> 08:39:57,541
to a local shopping center, so that is one option for them to

6996
08:39:57,615 --> 08:40:01,215
connect people to the transit system.

6997
08:40:02,720 --> 08:40:05,823
the americans with disabilities act provides the baseline for

6998
08:40:05,823 --> 08:40:10,862
accessibility standards in the u.s., however, this is just the

6999
08:40:10,862 --> 08:40:17,462
base and not the ceiling. Av's have the potential to raise

7000
08:40:17,502 --> 08:40:20,872
the ceiling of what people can accomplish within their lives

7001
08:40:20,872 --> 08:40:26,272
with disabilities. Thank you very much and a look

7002
08:40:27,912 --> 08:40:29,314
forward to hearing some of your questions.

7003
08:40:29,314 --> 08:40:32,914
chair allen: thank you. Amanda wilson?

7004
08:40:33,317 --> 08:40:38,790
ms. Wilson: thank you council member allen, and to the

7005
08:40:38,790 --> 08:40:40,725
committee for the opportunity to speak.

7006
08:40:40,725 --> 08:40:46,131
I'm a resident of ward 4 and come here is a daily d.c.

7007
08:40:46,131 --> 08:40:52,131
cyclist to ask the committee for the deployment of autonomous

7008
08:40:53,137 --> 08:40:57,274
vehicles on d.c. Streets. Every day I see drivers

7009
08:40:57,274 --> 08:41:00,110
speeding, plowing through yellow and red lights with pedestrians

7010
08:41:00,110 --> 08:41:03,348
in the crosswalk and turning right on red even if a no right

7011
08:41:03,348 --> 08:41:07,190
turn on red sign is posted. Even though this is supposed to

7012
08:41:07,190 --> 08:41:11,219
be a citywide rule implemented years ago.

7013
08:41:11,756 --> 08:41:14,625
they speed past me within a few inches when d.c. Law requires

7014
08:41:14,625 --> 08:41:20,632
three feet passing distance. The other day I saw a driver and

7015
08:41:20,632 --> 08:41:24,569
suv speed aggressively pastor cyclist at a close distance

7016
08:41:24,569 --> 08:41:29,507
because she was upset the cyclist was using the road.

7017
08:41:29,507 --> 08:41:33,778
the angry driver was protected by 4000 pounds of metal.

7018
08:41:33,778 --> 08:41:36,981
we cyclists and pedestrians are not.

7019
08:41:36,981 --> 08:41:40,518
we are subject to the emotions of drivers who drive angry,

7020
08:41:40,518 --> 08:41:43,554
tired, desperate, stressed and even vengeful.

7021
08:41:43,554 --> 08:41:47,592
after more than 12 years cycling on d.c. Streets I'm convinced it

7022
08:41:47,592 --> 08:41:52,597
is the norm rather than the exception for drivers to push

7023
08:41:52,597 --> 08:41:55,933
their limits and break robles, especially if they know they are

7024
08:41:55,933 --> 08:42:00,205
not being watched, and there is not enough enforcement, and with

7025
08:42:00,205 --> 08:42:03,805
fatal consequences. Autonomous driving technology is

7026
08:42:03,808 --> 08:42:07,408
different. After getting familiar with this

7027
08:42:09,130 --> 08:42:14,686
technology at work, I learned it can be designed to follow

7028
08:42:14,686 --> 08:42:20,860
robles, see road users through 360 degree vision system and

7029
08:42:20,158 --> 08:42:23,260
keep a safe distance. It does not drive distracted or

7030
08:42:23,260 --> 08:42:28,933
drunk and best of all, does not bring a motion to driving.

7031
08:42:28,933 --> 08:42:31,369
I have also witnessed this firsthand driving bikes decides

7032
08:42:31,369 --> 08:42:37,475
waymo as it tested in d.c. This technology provides a

7033
08:42:37,475 --> 08:42:39,576
methodical and consistent predict ability that makes

7034
08:42:39,576 --> 08:42:42,581
cycling feel safer. We must make decisions based on

7035
08:42:42,581 --> 08:42:45,582
data. If data shows the promise of

7036
08:42:45,582 --> 08:42:49,182
increasing road safety, authorizing this technology

7037
08:42:50,121 --> 08:42:51,890
could be your is in the public interest.

7038
08:42:51,890 --> 08:42:58,289
as an active multimodal transit system user, I wanted to add, in

7039
08:42:58,496 --> 08:43:02,400
addition to being a cyclist I use metro and right healing

7040
08:43:02,400 --> 08:43:06,400
services. I would love to have the choice

7041
08:43:06,400 --> 08:43:09,604
of occasionally hailing an autonomous ride.

7042
08:43:09,974 --> 08:43:13,878
I would continue to use bikeshare and the metro.

7043
08:43:13,878 --> 08:43:20,510
now more than ever the dream of vision zero, no more traffic

7044
08:43:20,510 --> 08:43:23,353
fatalities, is within reach. Let's see how safe our roads can

7045
08:43:23,353 --> 08:43:26,353
be. Please authorize the deployment

7046
08:43:28,559 --> 08:43:31,290
of this potentially life-saving road safety technology.

7047
08:43:31,290 --> 08:43:36,567
I also support what the other witnesses have said regarding

7048
08:43:36,567 --> 08:43:38,872
cyclist safety. Thank you.

7049
08:43:38,872 --> 08:43:45,472
chair allen: thank you. Let me turn to cesar toledo, who

7050
08:43:46,579 --> 08:43:49,582
is joining us online I believe. Good afternoon.

7051
08:43:49,582 --> 08:43:53,782
mr. Toledo: good afternoon. Caesar toledo here.

7052
08:43:56,723 --> 08:44:00,923
good evening, I should say, councilmember allen.

7053
08:44:02,229 --> 08:44:06,700
I'm a member on the commission on poverty and a ward six

7054
08:44:06,700 --> 08:44:11,270
resident, here to express deep appreciation for your leadership

7055
08:44:11,270 --> 08:44:14,307
in safely bringing autonomous vehicles to d.c. Nice a bit in

7056
08:44:14,307 --> 08:44:17,344
my full testimony for the record and will summarize it as you

7057
08:44:17,344 --> 08:44:20,346
have had quite a lot of testimony today.

7058
08:44:20,346 --> 08:44:25,886
congrats to you and the team. As a child my relationship with

7059
08:44:25,886 --> 08:44:27,955
cars was defined by instability and fear.

7060
08:44:27,955 --> 08:44:33,955
that changed an av in 2024. My father was obsessed with

7061
08:44:35,862 --> 08:44:41,168
vehicles, which led to an unsustainable debt within our

7062
08:44:41,168 --> 08:44:44,304
family. My childhood was marked by the

7063
08:44:44,304 --> 08:44:48,176
terrifying reality of riding in vehicles with family members

7064
08:44:48,176 --> 08:44:51,445
under the influence. No one especially a child should

7065
08:44:51,445 --> 08:44:53,579
have to face the fear of putting their life into the hands of a

7066
08:44:53,579 --> 08:44:56,490
driver who should not be behind the wheel.

7067
08:44:56,490 --> 08:44:59,649
unfortunately that trauma shook my life.

7068
08:45:00,870 --> 08:45:06,870
in 2024, on the deployment for the harris campaign I was

7069
08:45:07,727 --> 08:45:13,127
introduced to waymo and became upset with that service.

7070
08:45:13,333 --> 08:45:16,670
I really enjoy the safety, the comfort.

7071
08:45:16,670 --> 08:45:22,976
I ranked as one of the top 3% riders for waymo nationwide that

7072
08:45:22,976 --> 08:45:26,576
year. For someone who grew up

7073
08:45:26,947 --> 08:45:27,948
terrified by the unpredictability of human

7074
08:45:27,948 --> 08:45:34,220
drivers, riding in a vehicle program to never drive drunk, be

7075
08:45:34,220 --> 08:45:36,456
distracted or enraged at drivers was informative.

7076
08:45:36,456 --> 08:45:38,856
several organizations represented communities

7077
08:45:40,930 --> 08:45:42,629
including mothers against drunk driving recognize the immense

7078
08:45:42,629 --> 08:45:46,829
potential of av's to limit human error.

7079
08:45:49,135 --> 08:45:52,472
now is the time to bring them to d.c.

7080
08:45:52,472 --> 08:45:56,276
for context I don't view this through an abstract lens.

7081
08:45:56,276 --> 08:46:00,514
I've biked more than 1500 miles across the district, log more

7082
08:46:00,514 --> 08:46:07,114
than 600 ride shares and ridden the former x2 bus for many

7083
08:46:07,854 --> 08:46:10,925
years. I have seen the best and worst

7084
08:46:10,925 --> 08:46:14,260
of our transit ecosystem. Lastly as you consider this

7085
08:46:14,260 --> 08:46:20,860
bill, I encourage d.c. Council to fund a universal initiative

7086
08:46:21,134 --> 08:46:25,238
similar to the one l.a. To support low income constituents.

7087
08:46:25,238 --> 08:46:29,438
and universal access to all transportation options.

7088
08:46:31,311 --> 08:46:34,748
everything from public transit from the city, to being able to

7089
08:46:34,748 --> 08:46:39,151
purchase bikes at a local shop, building a transportation

7090
08:46:39,151 --> 08:46:42,751
system. Thank you charles allen, for

7091
08:46:44,224 --> 08:46:47,894
your leadership. Appreciate your time and for

7092
08:46:47,894 --> 08:46:50,263
taking on this effort. Chair allen: thank you very

7093
08:46:50,263 --> 08:46:53,863
much. Let's turn to jennifer cooper

7094
08:46:54,300 --> 08:46:59,100
who I believe is online. Ms. Cooper: hi.

7095
08:47:03,677 --> 08:47:08,470
thank you councilmember allen, and everyone else for having a

7096
08:47:08,470 --> 08:47:11,751
very long day. My name is jennifer cooper, a

7097
08:47:11,751 --> 08:47:14,954
former resident of parkview where I lived a decade, recent

7098
08:47:14,954 --> 08:47:16,823
transplant to baltimore where I work as a nurse.

7099
08:47:16,823 --> 08:47:21,494
I'm affiliated with d.c. And baltimore chapters of the safe

7100
08:47:21,494 --> 08:47:24,130
streets though today my statements are my own.

7101
08:47:24,130 --> 08:47:26,766
I'm a nurse and former community journalist.

7102
08:47:26,766 --> 08:47:29,669
I have written about poverty in the u.s.

7103
08:47:29,669 --> 08:47:32,206
I know a few things about transportation in this country.

7104
08:47:32,206 --> 08:47:36,275
but I'm here today because in november2020 I was hit by an suv

7105
08:47:36,275 --> 08:47:40,413
while jogging. I was fortunate that they were

7106
08:47:40,413 --> 08:47:42,716
traveling less than 20 miles an hour.

7107
08:47:42,716 --> 08:47:45,820
I want to thank everyone for the time and energy they voted --

7108
08:47:45,820 --> 08:47:50,357
devoted to determining if av's are safe for our streets.

7109
08:47:50,357 --> 08:47:53,326
I want everyone to take a moment to appreciate being human

7110
08:47:53,326 --> 08:47:56,362
because our ability to think and move and act on our own is

7111
08:47:56,362 --> 08:47:59,699
slowly being taken away. I believe my statement is

7112
08:47:59,699 --> 08:48:06,272
important, but also eyes your screen and give them a, shrug

7113
08:48:06,272 --> 08:48:07,507
your shoulders, stretch and walk around.

7114
08:48:07,507 --> 08:48:12,307
our health is important and should be valued.

7115
08:48:13,880 --> 08:48:15,849
I understand the need to get ahead of technology and the

7116
08:48:15,849 --> 08:48:19,652
value of regulation. However this proposal falls

7117
08:48:19,652 --> 08:48:21,521
short and ignores the elephant in the room which is climate

7118
08:48:21,521 --> 08:48:25,721
change. As many stated today, av's will

7119
08:48:26,593 --> 08:48:29,730
increase energy production, use precious water supply and

7120
08:48:29,730 --> 08:48:33,660
increase the number of vehicles on the road.

7121
08:48:33,660 --> 08:48:36,137
further the testing timeline is too short, there is no public

7122
08:48:36,137 --> 08:48:39,405
comment nor environmental review and no guarantee of service for

7123
08:48:39,405 --> 08:48:43,275
those with disabilities. Those with disabilities often

7124
08:48:43,275 --> 08:48:47,313
need door to door service, not curb to curb service.

7125
08:48:47,313 --> 08:48:48,882
improved service for people disabilities won't happen

7126
08:48:48,882 --> 08:48:52,885
because of av's. It will happen with a commitment

7127
08:48:52,885 --> 08:48:58,285
by this council to value their life and contributions.

7128
08:48:58,825 --> 08:49:03,630
we found public transit is 70 times safer than private

7129
08:49:03,630 --> 08:49:06,630
vehicles. Despite the potential for

7130
08:49:08,501 --> 08:49:09,835
increased independence for some with disabilities it is too soon

7131
08:49:09,835 --> 08:49:13,439
to release technology onto our busy streets.

7132
08:49:13,439 --> 08:49:16,910
anything that increases the number of vehicles on the road

7133
08:49:16,910 --> 08:49:20,510
is associated with poor health outcomes.

7134
08:49:20,513 --> 08:49:21,848
we need more public transportation, not more private

7135
08:49:21,848 --> 08:49:23,850
vehicles. If companies want to release av

7136
08:49:23,850 --> 08:49:26,519
's on our streets they should start with shuttles, buses and

7137
08:49:26,519 --> 08:49:29,519
vans. According to the national

7138
08:49:30,256 --> 08:49:34,456
highway traffic association there were over 39,000 people

7139
08:49:35,396 --> 08:49:41,396
killed in crashes in 2024. But that same year there were

7140
08:49:41,468 --> 08:49:46,268
41,800, 2000 more, killed as a direct result of vehicle

7141
08:49:47,600 --> 08:49:49,676
pollution. When we talk about safety are

7142
08:49:49,676 --> 08:49:52,790
urged the council to look at the big picture.

7143
08:49:52,790 --> 08:49:55,248
it concerns me that this is viewed as a technology that

7144
08:49:55,248 --> 08:50:00,153
exists, so we must accept it. I don't support this bill

7145
08:50:00,153 --> 08:50:01,880
without substantial modifications including

7146
08:50:01,880 --> 08:50:05,288
environmental review. Once we release this technology

7147
08:50:05,892 --> 08:50:09,496
without due diligence it cannot be undone, so I urge you to take

7148
08:50:09,496 --> 08:50:10,631
the time necessary and do appreciate the time you are

7149
08:50:10,631 --> 08:50:12,165
taking. Thank you.

7150
08:50:12,165 --> 08:50:17,565
chair allen: thank you. Next, michael ludgardo who I

7151
08:50:19,939 --> 08:50:24,139
believe is also online. There we go.

7152
08:50:25,450 --> 08:50:30,445
mr. Ludgardo: good evening chairallen and members of the

7153
08:50:30,717 --> 08:50:34,387
committee. Thank you for the opportunity to

7154
08:50:34,387 --> 08:50:39,787
testify regarding bill 26-0684. My name is michael ludgardo.

7155
08:50:40,293 --> 08:50:44,465
I serve as the director philanthropy communications at

7156
08:50:44,465 --> 08:50:50,465
new futures d.c. Years ago they invested in my

7157
08:50:51,271 --> 08:50:54,274
future through a scholarship and advising.

7158
08:50:54,274 --> 08:50:57,411
that support helped me earn my college degree and return to the

7159
08:50:57,411 --> 08:51:00,680
organization where I now have the privilege of helping other

7160
08:51:00,680 --> 08:51:02,582
young adults pursue their educational and career

7161
08:51:02,582 --> 08:51:06,182
opportunities. For those unfamiliar with new

7162
08:51:07,488 --> 08:51:10,690
futures we are a washington, d.c. Based nonprofit that

7163
08:51:10,690 --> 08:51:13,693
invests in young adults with financial need by providing

7164
08:51:13,693 --> 08:51:16,693
scholarships, advising, career development, professional

7165
08:51:17,263 --> 08:51:20,633
connections, that help students earn degrees, complete

7166
08:51:20,633 --> 08:51:22,302
credentials and launch meaningful careers.

7167
08:51:22,302 --> 08:51:26,502
today they support 200 individuals and have over 410

7168
08:51:27,374 --> 08:51:30,974
alumni. Every individual we serve comes

7169
08:51:30,977 --> 08:51:33,980
from a household earning less than 80% of the district's

7170
08:51:33,980 --> 08:51:36,980
median income. Many are first-generation

7171
08:51:39,520 --> 08:51:42,889
college students balancing school, work and family response

7172
08:51:42,889 --> 08:51:44,123
abilities while pursuing opportunities to transform their

7173
08:51:44,123 --> 08:51:48,323
futures. While new futures is not a

7174
08:51:48,928 --> 08:51:50,864
transportation organization we see every day how transportation

7175
08:51:50,864 --> 08:51:55,640
affects mobility. We often say scholarship opens

7176
08:51:55,301 --> 08:51:57,904
doors but students also need to walk through the doors.

7177
08:51:57,904 --> 08:52:01,875
transportation is one of those critical links between

7178
08:52:01,875 --> 08:52:04,878
opportunity and success. Many district scholars live-in

7179
08:52:04,878 --> 08:52:08,810
in wards that historically experience disinvestment and

7180
08:52:08,810 --> 08:52:12,118
fewer pathways to opportunity. Others traveling to the district

7181
08:52:12,118 --> 08:52:15,718
for college or training, internships, advising

7182
08:52:17,900 --> 08:52:18,691
appointments, networking events and employment opportunities.

7183
08:52:18,691 --> 08:52:22,891
for students, convenient access to transportation, the

7184
08:52:24,431 --> 08:52:26,565
challenges not only the financial cost but the time and

7185
08:52:26,565 --> 08:52:30,765
opportunity. That gives less time to study,

7186
08:52:32,706 --> 08:52:36,309
work, care for family members or purchase a paid in career

7187
08:52:36,309 --> 08:52:37,643
building. Sometimes transportation

7188
08:52:37,643 --> 08:52:42,443
challenges become the reason they miss an advising

7189
08:52:42,582 --> 08:52:43,683
appointment, decline in internship or cannot take

7190
08:52:43,683 --> 08:52:45,118
advantage of a professional opportunity.

7191
08:52:45,118 --> 08:52:50,518
as the council considers bill 26-0684, we encourage continued

7192
08:52:51,491 --> 08:52:52,526
attention to how emerging technologies including

7193
08:52:52,526 --> 08:52:56,726
autonomous vehicles can complement existing options and

7194
08:52:58,864 --> 08:53:01,935
expand access to education, employment and community

7195
08:53:01,935 --> 08:53:04,335
resources. Transportation innovation alone

7196
08:53:07,600 --> 08:53:11,677
will not solve every barrier but when implemented thoughtfully,

7197
08:53:11,677 --> 08:53:14,247
it can become one tool to expand opportunity.

7198
08:53:14,247 --> 08:53:18,618
as someone who's own life changed because others invested

7199
08:53:18,618 --> 08:53:21,821
in my potential, I know success is built through many moments.

7200
08:53:21,821 --> 08:53:24,692
getting to class, meeting with an advisor, interviewing and

7201
08:53:24,692 --> 08:53:28,892
getting a career. When transportation barriers are

7202
08:53:29,496 --> 08:53:31,164
reduced, more adults can get to the opportunities that change

7203
08:53:31,164 --> 08:53:32,732
lives. Thank you.

7204
08:53:32,732 --> 08:53:37,971
chair allen: thank you. Heather foote, who is here in

7205
08:53:37,971 --> 08:53:41,571
person. Ms. Foote: I'm heather foote,

7206
08:53:44,643 --> 08:53:48,281
from ward 1, testifying in my own capacity.

7207
08:53:48,281 --> 08:53:52,786
I'm a public witness, but a member of the pedestrian

7208
08:53:52,786 --> 08:53:56,986
advisory council and my transportation options workshops

7209
08:53:57,590 --> 08:54:00,860
for older adults in wards seven and eight and spanish speakers

7210
08:54:00,860 --> 08:54:03,396
as well as participation in a disability senior group which

7211
08:54:03,396 --> 08:54:07,660
has met weekly since the advent of covid and several group

7212
08:54:07,660 --> 08:54:12,466
members have testified today. Thank you for tackling this

7213
08:54:12,605 --> 08:54:17,405
complex issue, chairman allen. Three issues require close

7214
08:54:21,882 --> 08:54:24,417
attention as the council considers legislation, rather

7215
08:54:24,417 --> 08:54:29,217
than after its passage. Detection, monitoring and wide

7216
08:54:29,355 --> 08:54:33,555
public awareness among all d.c. Residents.

7217
08:54:34,940 --> 08:54:38,431
as for detection others have spoken about adequate commercial

7218
08:54:38,431 --> 08:54:41,635
company testing and data collection to enable av's to

7219
08:54:41,635 --> 08:54:45,638
detect the widest range of movements and features.

7220
08:54:45,638 --> 08:54:49,238
detection must include infrastructure design and

7221
08:54:49,309 --> 08:54:54,447
traffic enforcement activity. It is vital and emergent av

7222
08:54:54,447 --> 08:54:59,786
program not set back the slowly won gains for pedestrian safety.

7223
08:54:59,786 --> 08:55:03,656
in my testimony for the record I raise three detection examples.

7224
08:55:03,656 --> 08:55:08,456
one is uncontrolled crosswalks, the second, rectangular rapid

7225
08:55:10,597 --> 08:55:12,198
flashing beacons,. And thethird is hawk signals

7226
08:55:12,198 --> 08:55:16,680
av's must recognize a pedestrian stepping into a crosswalk where

7227
08:55:16,680 --> 08:55:20,607
there is no traffic light has right-of-way over moving

7228
08:55:20,607 --> 08:55:25,407
vehicles. Te -- the pac has worked with

7229
08:55:27,280 --> 08:55:31,451
an npd sergeant. The imperative is all the more

7230
08:55:31,451 --> 08:55:33,419
critical for those who need wheelchairs and assisted

7231
08:55:33,419 --> 08:55:36,419
devices. As for rectangular rapid

7232
08:55:36,957 --> 08:55:41,757
flashing beacons, pedestrian caps to trigger small flashing

7233
08:55:41,827 --> 08:55:46,270
yellow lights, vehicles must cede to pedestrians.

7234
08:55:46,199 --> 08:55:52,799
ddot installed two such signals on adams and morgan, the second

7235
08:55:53,439 --> 08:55:57,844
where one was hit and dragged and killed when she crossed the

7236
08:55:57,844 --> 08:56:00,734
road. I'm encouraged to watch how

7237
08:56:00,734 --> 08:56:04,934
vehicles learn about and increasingly understand and

7238
08:56:06,973 --> 08:56:09,275
respect this pedestrian device in the third example is hock

7239
08:56:09,275 --> 08:56:10,409
signals. I think many in the room are

7240
08:56:10,409 --> 08:56:14,900
familiar with hock signals --hawk signals.

7241
08:56:16,816 --> 08:56:22,816
they have a video featuring a former and forthcoming member.

7242
08:56:25,925 --> 08:56:32,525
the second issue is monitoring. I look forward to the department

7243
08:56:33,700 --> 08:56:36,436
testimony, they have depth of experience in handling on-demand

7244
08:56:36,436 --> 08:56:38,638
vehicle compliance with d.c. Law.

7245
08:56:38,638 --> 08:56:44,380
such monitoring experience enables the agency to track and

7246
08:56:45,411 --> 08:56:48,411
address illegal behavior and scofflaws.

7247
08:56:49,115 --> 08:56:55,715
the key issue raised is, there should be -- whether there

7248
08:56:56,856 --> 08:57:01,460
should be a separate set of rules and regulations for av's,

7249
08:57:01,460 --> 08:57:04,864
or whether they should be regulated under across-the-board

7250
08:57:04,864 --> 08:57:08,464
rules for for-hire vehicles including av's.

7251
08:57:08,701 --> 08:57:15,901
under its current director the d fve has thought out those with

7252
08:57:17,275 --> 08:57:19,450
disabilities and work to incorporate and address concerns

7253
08:57:19,450 --> 08:57:25,551
raised in program planning. The final of my three issues is

7254
08:57:25,551 --> 08:57:27,453
public awareness among particular audiences.

7255
08:57:27,453 --> 08:57:32,292
I flagged the issue of d.c.'s growing senior population and

7256
08:57:32,292 --> 08:57:36,662
the vital need for proactive, audience appropriate handouts

7257
08:57:36,662 --> 08:57:39,365
now that leah with the district government is thinking around av

7258
08:57:39,365 --> 08:57:42,965
's. Rather than after the fact

7259
08:57:43,568 --> 08:57:46,568
downstream when legislation is passed.

7260
08:57:47,106 --> 08:57:50,176
the majority of adults I interact with do not track these

7261
08:57:50,176 --> 08:57:54,713
hearings nor do many know what the letters av might stand for

7262
08:57:54,713 --> 08:58:00,713
-- letters av might stand for. Government accountability to its

7263
08:58:04,724 --> 08:58:06,859
electorate includes timely information sharing.

7264
08:58:06,859 --> 08:58:11,864
then I go into the federal plane language initiative on how

7265
08:58:11,864 --> 08:58:16,664
government communication must be tailored to particular audiences

7266
08:58:17,269 --> 08:58:21,469
in ways that are accessible and understandable.

7267
08:58:21,841 --> 08:58:24,277
the potentially money mental, the advent of autonomous vehicle

7268
08:58:24,277 --> 08:58:30,277
s in the district is only the latest technology driven

7269
08:58:31,684 --> 08:58:33,853
transportation innovation to arrive on district roadways.

7270
08:58:33,853 --> 08:58:38,557
an important exercise would be to analyze issues and problems

7271
08:58:38,557 --> 08:58:42,828
that arose with the advent of tnc's, especially for older

7272
08:58:42,828 --> 08:58:45,828
adults and persons with disabilities.

7273
08:58:46,465 --> 08:58:48,635
some lessons learned can be found in testimony by other

7274
08:58:48,635 --> 08:58:51,903
witnesses in today's hearing. Finally in thinking the

7275
08:58:51,903 --> 08:58:56,243
committee for its valuable work in researching, preparing and

7276
08:58:56,243 --> 08:59:02,243
organizing this hearing, I want to flagged the welcome testimony

7277
08:59:02,882 --> 08:59:07,486
by a fellow pedestrian advisory council member cheryle adams, a

7278
08:59:07,486 --> 08:59:08,522
ward six resident who testified in the morning.

7279
08:59:08,522 --> 08:59:13,460
chair allen: thank you. Brandon wu has joined us, our

7280
08:59:13,460 --> 08:59:17,395
last public witness. Mr. Wu: good evening, council

7281
08:59:17,395 --> 08:59:21,600
member allen. I apologize for my tardiness in

7282
08:59:21,600 --> 08:59:26,380
being underdressed today. I'm speaking as a ward 1

7283
08:59:26,380 --> 08:59:31,543
resident, a transit rider, a capital bikeshare user and as

7284
08:59:31,543 --> 08:59:34,480
someone who really wants autonomous vehicles to be

7285
08:59:34,480 --> 08:59:39,486
implemented in a manner that is safe for me as a bike rider, and

7286
08:59:39,486 --> 08:59:41,687
prioritizes working people and equity in the district.

7287
08:59:41,687 --> 08:59:47,493
I'm here speaking on three areas, hoping the bill is

7288
08:59:47,493 --> 08:59:51,497
amended in those areas to ensure we have the strongest bill

7289
08:59:51,497 --> 08:59:53,699
possible if this were to pass out of committee and go to the

7290
08:59:53,699 --> 08:59:57,899
full council. On safety I would c1

7291
09:00:00,373 --> 09:00:05,711
on safety, I would echo the points made by families for safe

7292
09:00:05,711 --> 09:00:06,712
streets. Holding autonomous vehicles to

7293
09:00:06,712 --> 09:00:11,917
standard second to the aviation industry, such as requiring

7294
09:00:11,917 --> 09:00:14,720
autonomous vehicles be 10 times safer than human driven vehicles

7295
09:00:14,720 --> 09:00:19,725
on average, eventually scaling up to 100 times safer in all or

7296
09:00:19,725 --> 09:00:23,796
almost all operations. I think there should be a pulled

7297
09:00:23,796 --> 09:00:28,000
fund for eeev crashes to ensure that any victims of av traffic

7298
09:00:28,000 --> 09:00:34,000
five months can afford care. I would cite ephesus's white

7299
09:00:34,773 --> 09:00:38,544
paper for more details. Finally, I think the remote

7300
09:00:38,544 --> 09:00:41,747
operator should be passing d.c. Drivers tests, including the

7301
09:00:41,747 --> 09:00:47,586
d.c. Road skills tests, since current law does not

7302
09:00:47,586 --> 09:00:50,155
specifically outline them having to pass that test.

7303
09:00:50,155 --> 09:00:57,296
I think that needs to happen before any av's are on the road

7304
09:00:57,296 --> 09:00:58,765
without drivers. On the labor piece, I think this

7305
09:00:58,765 --> 09:01:03,565
could investigate impacts before rather than after, to

7306
09:01:05,839 --> 09:01:10,910
propose computer programs spending by using the av miles

7307
09:01:10,910 --> 09:01:17,510
traveled tax for the practice rather than after, and I think

7308
09:01:17,650 --> 09:01:21,720
we should be prohibiting entities funded by taxpayer

7309
09:01:21,720 --> 09:01:24,560
dollars from putting out reflects -- requests for

7310
09:01:24,560 --> 09:01:27,293
proposals to autonomous vehicles to protect union jobs.

7311
09:01:27,293 --> 09:01:30,529
on the equity piece, I think the provisions could be strengthened

7312
09:01:30,529 --> 09:01:34,729
to ensure we are protecting working-class communities,

7313
09:01:35,000 --> 09:01:37,369
especially black working-class communities destroyed by freeway

7314
09:01:37,369 --> 09:01:41,340
and other road construction projects, and writers who have

7315
09:01:41,340 --> 09:01:44,543
long been denied rideshare service through an accessible

7316
09:01:44,543 --> 09:01:46,780
vehicles. I think we should be subsidizing

7317
09:01:46,780 --> 09:01:50,483
av service for those who cannot be -- cannot afford it.

7318
09:01:50,483 --> 09:01:53,685
we should be mandating that robotaxis accommodate people in

7319
09:01:53,685 --> 09:02:00,285
wheelchairs and folks who rely on this for their travel, and

7320
09:02:03,228 --> 09:02:08,280
heavily fine permittees for not just on geography

7321
09:02:08,181 --> 09:02:11,585
but also on the basis of race, disability, and any other

7322
09:02:11,585 --> 09:02:16,385
protected class. I would also echo the multimodal

7323
09:02:17,322 --> 09:02:19,725
council's recommendations. Thank you for letting me

7324
09:02:19,725 --> 09:02:20,994
testify. I look forward to your

7325
09:02:20,994 --> 09:02:24,594
questions. >> thank you all very much.

7326
09:02:25,980 --> 09:02:29,334
I want to note several folks on this panel also shared stories

7327
09:02:29,334 --> 09:02:33,674
about being struck or injured. I know that is not something

7328
09:02:33,674 --> 09:02:37,276
that is always easy to talk about, so I appreciate that

7329
09:02:37,276 --> 09:02:39,413
several of you brought that up, share your own personal

7330
09:02:39,413 --> 09:02:42,949
experience. I think it is a reminder for all

7331
09:02:42,949 --> 09:02:48,200
of us that on our roads in d.c., any one of us is just one step

7332
09:02:48,200 --> 09:02:54,494
away from an injury or worse. Those of you who shared that, I

7333
09:02:54,494 --> 09:02:57,363
really appreciate that, because that is not easy to share.

7334
09:02:57,363 --> 09:03:02,701
when you are the last panel of the day after nine hours, we

7335
09:03:02,701 --> 09:03:06,305
have asked many of the questions along the course of the day, so

7336
09:03:06,305 --> 09:03:09,575
forgive me if we end up being a little bit brief, but I want to

7337
09:03:09,575 --> 09:03:14,713
touch on a couple of things. To brandon wu, you laid out

7338
09:03:14,713 --> 09:03:17,718
several recommendations, and I hope that you are submitting

7339
09:03:17,718 --> 09:03:20,786
your testimony for the record so you have that, but one thing you

7340
09:03:20,786 --> 09:03:24,570
said was the equity components of the legislation could be

7341
09:03:24,570 --> 09:03:27,127
stronger, so I was going to ask if you could elaborate more on

7342
09:03:27,127 --> 09:03:29,796
that. One of the things we are

7343
09:03:29,796 --> 09:03:33,199
attempting in the legislation, because right now, depending on

7344
09:03:33,199 --> 09:03:38,271
where you are, if you hail a new burger or lyft, you are going to

7345
09:03:38,271 --> 09:03:42,975
get very different wait times for that ride.

7346
09:03:42,975 --> 09:03:47,480
if you are in ward 1 or the outer edges of ward 8, you will

7347
09:03:47,480 --> 09:03:50,416
probably have a different experience.

7348
09:03:50,416 --> 09:03:54,820
with the legislation, we try to craft it in a way where the wait

7349
09:03:54,820 --> 09:03:58,691
times have to be equitable across the city so we do not see

7350
09:03:58,691 --> 09:04:04,910
any -- an av operator concentrate their vehicles in

7351
09:04:04,565 --> 09:04:07,566
one spot. What are other ways we can

7352
09:04:07,566 --> 09:04:12,366
decimate the equity? >> that is a fantastic question.

7353
09:04:12,538 --> 09:04:15,975
I think one is holding hearings east of the river, places we

7354
09:04:15,975 --> 09:04:19,979
have not had, meeting constituents where they are at

7355
09:04:19,979 --> 09:04:23,450
and hearing that the concerns with rideshare.

7356
09:04:23,450 --> 09:04:26,585
how have the wait times it been impacting you?

7357
09:04:26,585 --> 09:04:33,785
and listening to what they want. Some ridweers may just want bus

7358
09:04:34,793 --> 09:04:39,980
service every 10 to 15 minutes rather than 30 to 40 minutes.

7359
09:04:39,980 --> 09:04:41,267
I think raising the tax to provide a dedicated fund

7360
09:04:41,267 --> 09:04:44,471
allotted to achieve the visionary bus network could be a

7361
09:04:44,471 --> 09:04:50,810
very great way to ensure we do not use av's as the end-all

7362
09:04:50,810 --> 09:04:55,100
be-all. This should be we are expanding

7363
09:04:56,820 --> 09:04:59,552
transect access if we are going to legalize av's, but I have

7364
09:04:59,552 --> 09:05:03,890
concerns that with other witnesses and with folks you

7365
09:05:03,890 --> 09:05:07,293
have opinions on this legislation, they do not want to

7366
09:05:07,293 --> 09:05:09,362
pay that tax. I would say listening to

7367
09:05:09,362 --> 09:05:12,898
constituents on the ground and hearing what they have to say on

7368
09:05:12,898 --> 09:05:16,936
how their transit journeys can be improved is really critical.

7369
09:05:16,936 --> 09:05:21,106
it is a great start to work on lowering wait times, but I have

7370
09:05:21,106 --> 09:05:24,977
concerns about where we are going to put this parking lot

7371
09:05:24,977 --> 09:05:27,580
where all the av's are going to be at.

7372
09:05:27,580 --> 09:05:32,184
it's probably not going to be ward three or four, and I think

7373
09:05:32,184 --> 09:05:35,254
neighbors next to that parking lot are going to be

7374
09:05:35,254 --> 09:05:38,791
disproportionately impacted, so I think talking to those

7375
09:05:38,791 --> 09:05:41,461
constituents, holding hearings in their neighborhoods and

7376
09:05:41,461 --> 09:05:46,261
reaching out to them directly will be critical.

7377
09:05:48,670 --> 09:05:50,136
chair allen: I appreciate you bringing up the vehicle miles

7378
09:05:50,136 --> 09:05:55,536
traveled tax, which is intended to do two things.

7379
09:06:05,485 --> 09:06:06,486
one is these are electric vehicle fleets, which means

7380
09:06:06,486 --> 09:06:07,553
there is no gas tax paid, so we are losing that.

7381
09:06:07,553 --> 09:06:08,688
secondly, it is an attempt to help work on congestion.

7382
09:06:08,688 --> 09:06:10,220
we had people over the course of the day say it is going to pass

7383
09:06:10,220 --> 09:06:13,158
the costs along to low income riders.

7384
09:06:13,158 --> 09:06:15,828
I do not accept the perception that these companies are just

7385
09:06:15,828 --> 09:06:19,999
going to pass it on. One person said to do a portrait

7386
09:06:19,999 --> 09:06:24,799
fee. That will get passed on to the

7387
09:06:24,970 --> 09:06:30,643
rider, I guarantee you. But in many cities, a navy ride

7388
09:06:30,643 --> 09:06:36,430
is more than an uber or lyft bang ride.

7389
09:06:36,449 --> 09:06:43,490
they are going to be competing with other ride services that

7390
09:06:43,989 --> 09:06:49,662
are less expensive. I think it is in their interest

7391
09:06:49,662 --> 09:06:52,999
to put all these costs on it. I have not been convinced we

7392
09:06:52,999 --> 09:06:58,905
need to move away from a vehicle miles traveled tax.

7393
09:06:58,905 --> 09:07:05,505
it is a way we manage distance and advising congestion and

7394
09:07:05,778 --> 09:07:09,978
riderless travel. Can you talk about the

7395
09:07:19,910 --> 09:07:22,428
micro-availability initiative? >> the city of l.a. Has a

7396
09:07:22,428 --> 09:07:25,431
universal basic mobility initiatives supporting low

7397
09:07:25,431 --> 09:07:28,967
income residents with 150 dollars a month of financial

7398
09:07:28,967 --> 09:07:33,539
support through a mobile wallet to be able to access any and all

7399
09:07:33,539 --> 09:07:35,975
transportation options they would like to, really providing

7400
09:07:35,975 --> 09:07:40,775
that freedom, and universal access, everything from amtrak

7401
09:07:41,470 --> 09:07:44,450
cam track to being able to purchase stuff at bike stores,

7402
09:07:44,450 --> 09:07:49,989
there has been good research into showcasing some of the

7403
09:07:49,989 --> 09:07:52,910
positive impacts. One of the interesting facts is

7404
09:07:52,910 --> 09:07:56,662
that folks who actually were on that program, 15% of them

7405
09:07:56,662 --> 09:08:03,262
actually use metrobus or rail. Most of the benefits are being

7406
09:08:04,300 --> 09:08:07,340
used for everyday bus and transit.

7407
09:08:07,340 --> 09:08:09,942
thinking that is a unique model and initiative d.c. Could look

7408
09:08:09,942 --> 09:08:14,680
at to replicate using the funds that are being raised through

7409
09:08:14,680 --> 09:08:18,280
the bill. Chair allen: got it.

7410
09:08:18,696 --> 09:08:22,767
I agree with you. I tried a couple years ago

7411
09:08:22,767 --> 09:08:26,238
something called metro for d.c. So every d.c. Resident would

7412
09:08:26,238 --> 09:08:29,708
have $100 per month of metro benefit.

7413
09:08:29,708 --> 09:08:33,912
I think after january 2, we could come back to that.

7414
09:08:33,912 --> 09:08:38,490
but I think that in the same way that this committee worked with

7415
09:08:38,490 --> 09:08:42,454
our adult learner transit subsidy program, we increased it

7416
09:08:42,454 --> 09:08:45,658
from $70 per month to $100 per month.

7417
09:08:45,658 --> 09:08:48,193
it is definitely meaningful to a lot of our adult learners to

7418
09:08:48,193 --> 09:08:52,393
have the transportation costs for their education.

7419
09:08:52,731 --> 09:08:55,133
I like what you are saying. Let's have more conversations

7420
09:08:55,133 --> 09:08:59,933
about it to see what that looks like.

7421
09:09:00,539 --> 09:09:03,750
thank you. Ms. Wilson, I appreciate your

7422
09:09:03,750 --> 09:09:07,275
testimony. As a cyclist myself, I know

7423
09:09:09,881 --> 09:09:12,683
exactly what you are describing when you talk about driver

7424
09:09:12,683 --> 09:09:16,154
behavior and the unchecked sense of what happens there.

7425
09:09:16,154 --> 09:09:19,324
I think we have had a lot of conversation that over the

7426
09:09:19,324 --> 09:09:25,430
course of today, it is going to be important to be clear that

7427
09:09:25,430 --> 09:09:29,500
you can't convince me that these vehicles are safer than other

7428
09:09:29,500 --> 09:09:32,904
drivers if we don't have built into the language protections

7429
09:09:32,904 --> 09:09:37,176
for preventing av's from driving into bike lanes.

7430
09:09:37,176 --> 09:09:41,113
that is part of the ecosystem of our transit.

7431
09:09:41,113 --> 09:09:46,513
that is something we will definitely be working on.

7432
09:09:49,521 --> 09:09:52,124
your testimony was about other risks we have seen from other

7433
09:09:52,124 --> 09:09:55,124
humans that are driving aggressively.

7434
09:09:55,160 --> 09:09:57,862
I appreciate it. At this point, I don't think I

7435
09:09:57,862 --> 09:10:00,932
have any further questions. I appreciate everyone's

7436
09:10:00,932 --> 09:10:02,333
testimony. For those of you who have not

7437
09:10:02,333 --> 09:10:05,870
yet submitted it to the record, please do that so we can get it

7438
09:10:05,870 --> 09:10:12,470
as part of the hearing today. Thank you all very much.

7439
09:10:19,718 --> 09:10:22,487
it has been nine straight hours since we have been in this

7440
09:10:22,487 --> 09:10:25,290
chair, so we are going to take a brief recess and moved to our

7441
09:10:25,290 --> 09:10:27,892
government witnesses next. I'm going to take a five minute

7442
09:10:27,892 --> 09:10:31,329
recess to stretch my legs and then we will reconvene.

7443
09:10:31,329 --> 09:10:36,501
the time is now 6:40 p.m., which is magically the time our new

7444
09:10:36,501 --> 09:10:40,104
director said we would be transitioning to the government

7445
09:10:40,104 --> 09:10:42,507
witnesses. He called that 10 hours ago.

7446
09:10:42,507 --> 09:10:47,646
we will take a brief recess at 6:40, then we will pick back up

7447
09:10:47,646 --> 09:10:49,646
with government witnesses.

7448
09:17:37,900 --> 09:17:39,200
>>>> it is now 6:47. We will be reconvening with our

7449
09:17:39,200 --> 09:17:42,271
government witnesses. Thank you for being here.

7450
09:17:42,271 --> 09:17:46,442
I'm going to read out -- I guess we will go in the order of

7451
09:17:46,442 --> 09:17:50,813
people of the list that works, but tell me if you have a plan

7452
09:17:50,813 --> 09:17:52,781
otherwise. We have stephanie with the

7453
09:17:52,781 --> 09:17:56,381
district department of transportation, john thomas,

7454
09:17:57,820 --> 09:18:00,688
jonathan rogers, the director of the department of four higher

7455
09:18:00,688 --> 09:18:05,488
vehicles, and peter stephan, interim director, office of

7456
09:18:05,994 --> 09:18:08,697
disability rights. Good to see you.

7457
09:18:08,697 --> 09:18:11,834
stephanie, are you kicking us off?

7458
09:18:11,834 --> 09:18:14,234
>> I am. >> all right.

7459
09:18:15,204 --> 09:18:18,774
good evening. >> I will turn it over to you.

7460
09:18:18,774 --> 09:18:22,444
good evening. I am the manager of the

7461
09:18:22,444 --> 09:18:25,781
innovation branch of the department of transportation.

7462
09:18:25,781 --> 09:18:32,187
I am a white woman with brown hair tied back wearing a beige

7463
09:18:32,187 --> 09:18:33,389
suit. On behalf of mayor muriel bowser

7464
09:18:33,389 --> 09:18:37,861
I am presenting testimony on the autonomous vehicles deployment

7465
09:18:37,861 --> 09:18:40,261
authorization amendment act of 2026.

7466
09:18:42,197 --> 09:18:45,200
ddot recognizes the highly complex nature of regulating

7467
09:18:45,200 --> 09:18:49,872
autonomous vehicles for a visa. Navies have the potential to

7468
09:18:49,872 --> 09:18:54,720
reshape urban mobility by optimizing traffic flow,

7469
09:18:54,609 --> 09:18:58,380
expanding access to underserved neighborhoods and expanding

7470
09:18:58,380 --> 09:18:59,748
mobility options for neighbors with disabilities.

7471
09:18:59,748 --> 09:19:04,548
but realizing these potential benefits requires making careful

7472
09:19:04,619 --> 09:19:08,156
policy choices. We also acknowledge this new

7473
09:19:08,156 --> 09:19:10,692
technology may bring workforce changes as we saw with new

7474
09:19:10,692 --> 09:19:14,496
models that upended the traditional taxi industry.

7475
09:19:14,496 --> 09:19:17,565
as a these interlocal marketplaces, there will be

7476
09:19:17,565 --> 09:19:19,601
trade-offs. New jobs will be created but

7477
09:19:19,601 --> 09:19:26,641
existing jobs maywhile this evot come at once, it is important we

7478
09:19:26,641 --> 09:19:29,577
consider these impacts now before a these are deployed at

7479
09:19:29,577 --> 09:19:31,213
scale. There are many lessons to be

7480
09:19:31,213 --> 09:19:34,783
learned from other jurisdictions as we consider the next steps

7481
09:19:34,783 --> 09:19:40,183
with a visa. In april, we released an av's

7482
09:19:42,591 --> 09:19:45,660
report on how states have regulated this new industry.

7483
09:19:45,660 --> 09:19:49,860
that report included recommendations on commercial av

7484
09:19:51,333 --> 09:19:53,269
deployment. This will be available later

7485
09:19:53,269 --> 09:19:57,338
this summer and will focus on agency roles and

7486
09:19:57,338 --> 09:20:01,543
responsibilities, how to enact a stage engaged role for

7487
09:20:01,543 --> 09:20:04,480
deployment, and recommendations for using legislation versus

7488
09:20:04,480 --> 09:20:07,480
regulations to govern av deployment.

7489
09:20:08,417 --> 09:20:13,889
turning to the bill at hand, the legislation would allow av's to

7490
09:20:13,889 --> 09:20:17,225
aa primarily for ridesharing in the district 3 multiple ddot

7491
09:20:17,225 --> 09:20:20,962
certifications -- a testing permit, a commercial deployment

7492
09:20:20,962 --> 09:20:25,162
permit, a right ailing certification, and registration

7493
09:20:26,769 --> 09:20:31,569
for personally owned davies -- personally owned av's.

7494
09:20:33,208 --> 09:20:37,512
the bill also creates a deployment fund with fees on av

7495
09:20:37,512 --> 09:20:40,189
companies. A key lesson learned from other

7496
09:20:40,189 --> 09:20:45,328
jurisdictions is the value of a staged and gated approach to av

7497
09:20:45,328 --> 09:20:48,640
deployment. The bill has only one stage,

7498
09:20:48,640 --> 09:20:51,535
requiring companies to test for 100 a.d. Days and over 250,000

7499
09:20:51,535 --> 09:20:55,538
miles before they apply for a permit.

7500
09:20:55,538 --> 09:21:00,744
we recommend this be changed from a statutory mandate to a

7501
09:21:00,744 --> 09:21:02,745
regulatory authorization so ddot can take into consideration

7502
09:21:02,745 --> 09:21:06,160
things like whether the testing miles are driverless, the

7503
09:21:06,160 --> 09:21:08,751
locations and circumstances of the testing miles, and what

7504
09:21:08,751 --> 09:21:12,622
would disqualify a company for moving to the next phase.

7505
09:21:12,622 --> 09:21:15,825
allowing companies to move through the steps without

7506
09:21:15,825 --> 09:21:18,494
significant consideration to what each step entails could

7507
09:21:18,494 --> 09:21:22,832
result in companies and the impact of district agencies

7508
09:21:22,832 --> 09:21:26,432
being unprepared for full-scale districtwide service.

7509
09:21:27,604 --> 09:21:29,500
similarly, general accountability provisions should

7510
09:21:29,500 --> 09:21:34,430
be included in the legislation with the details flushed out in

7511
09:21:34,430 --> 09:21:35,979
regulations. Finds are currently capped at

7512
09:21:35,979 --> 09:21:40,116
$1000 per offense, far less than our normal public space finds

7513
09:21:40,116 --> 09:21:42,185
that are progressive depending on the severity and whether it

7514
09:21:42,185 --> 09:21:45,785
is recurrent. Ddot also recommends the

7515
09:21:46,456 --> 09:21:48,324
legislation authorize restricting or geo-fencing 80's

7516
09:21:48,324 --> 09:21:51,924
for commercial -- for emergency situations.

7517
09:21:54,664 --> 09:21:57,400
the bill's suspension and revocation provisions raise

7518
09:21:57,400 --> 09:21:59,602
concerns about whether the district would be able to

7519
09:21:59,602 --> 09:22:02,405
effectively pull the permits of unsafe or uncooperative

7520
09:22:02,405 --> 09:22:06,605
operators. We are also concerned that the

7521
09:22:07,811 --> 09:22:10,413
bill allows personally owned davies to be registered in the

7522
09:22:10,413 --> 09:22:13,160
district. Ddot believes these should be

7523
09:22:13,160 --> 09:22:16,352
fleet operated rather than personally owned at this stage

7524
09:22:16,352 --> 09:22:19,956
of the technology's nascent sea. Non-fleet vehicles would be

7525
09:22:19,956 --> 09:22:24,761
difficult to regulate and ensure they are operating safely on our

7526
09:22:24,761 --> 09:22:26,290
roadways. And the technology self-driving

7527
09:22:26,290 --> 09:22:30,233
capabilities can be oversold to drivers, presenting a vehicle

7528
09:22:30,233 --> 09:22:33,369
hazard -- safety hazard for both the vehicle occupants and those

7529
09:22:33,369 --> 09:22:36,372
on the roadway. Finally, we see an opportunity

7530
09:22:36,372 --> 09:22:38,841
to improve data collection and standardization requirements for

7531
09:22:38,841 --> 09:22:42,779
all kinds of for higher services, which director rogers

7532
09:22:42,779 --> 09:22:46,249
spoke about at the june 26 round table and will speak about

7533
09:22:46,249 --> 09:22:50,449
today. We similarly hope that the fhp

7534
09:22:51,787 --> 09:22:54,857
can set their own standards for right hail and carrier services

7535
09:22:54,857 --> 09:22:59,930
as this within -- he within the regulatory scope.

7536
09:22:59,930 --> 09:23:01,465
thank you for the opportunity to testify.

7537
09:23:01,465 --> 09:23:05,000
I am available to answer questions you may have.

7538
09:23:05,000 --> 09:23:09,539
>> mr. Thomas, are you testifying separately or just

7539
09:23:09,539 --> 09:23:12,539
available for questions? Got it.

7540
09:23:13,610 --> 09:23:19,315
mr. Rogers, we will turn to you. >> I am jonathan rogers,

7541
09:23:19,315 --> 09:23:23,515
director of the department of for-hire vehicles.

7542
09:23:25,210 --> 09:23:28,425
I am a white male, brown hair, wearing a gray suit.

7543
09:23:28,425 --> 09:23:34,164
thank you for the opportunity to share our perspective on bill

7544
09:23:34,164 --> 09:23:36,564
26. The framework the district

7545
09:23:38,201 --> 09:23:41,838
establishes to govern for hire of thomas vehicles will have a

7546
09:23:41,838 --> 09:23:45,709
far-reaching impact on how we move in our city.

7547
09:23:45,709 --> 09:23:50,113
I'm glad we are here hearing from a range of stakeholders.

7548
09:23:50,113 --> 09:23:53,713
strive for safety, accessibility, and affordability

7549
09:23:54,185 --> 09:23:57,420
in the services we regulate. That includes for higher

7550
09:23:57,420 --> 09:24:00,523
services for passengers and the delivery of goods.

7551
09:24:00,523 --> 09:24:04,261
both of these activities are already happening in some

7552
09:24:04,261 --> 09:24:07,831
capacity in the district using autonomous technology.

7553
09:24:07,831 --> 09:24:10,633
whether these surfaces are operated by a human or are

7554
09:24:10,633 --> 09:24:13,336
automated, the actions of our agency will reflect our

7555
09:24:13,336 --> 09:24:15,472
commitment to safety, accessibility, and

7556
09:24:15,472 --> 09:24:19,576
affordability. This is why the burden to prove

7557
09:24:19,576 --> 09:24:24,347
safe, accessible, and affordable operations must be on av

7558
09:24:24,347 --> 09:24:26,616
operators. A graduated approach makes sense

7559
09:24:26,616 --> 09:24:30,190
for growth and deployment and passengers service in terms of

7560
09:24:30,190 --> 09:24:35,240
fleet size, operating on local streets versus highways, or

7561
09:24:35,240 --> 09:24:37,159
geographic requirements for service.

7562
09:24:37,159 --> 09:24:40,497
all phases of deployment must prioritize equity and

7563
09:24:40,497 --> 09:24:42,897
accessibility. Without specific requirements,

7564
09:24:45,167 --> 09:24:48,170
operators are likely to begin their service in neighborhoods

7565
09:24:48,170 --> 09:24:50,840
and with vehicles that are convenient for them instead of

7566
09:24:50,840 --> 09:24:54,310
filling gaps in mobility or adding wheelchair accessible

7567
09:24:54,310 --> 09:24:57,310
service to our transportation system.

7568
09:24:57,413 --> 09:25:00,983
while we expect many operators to utilize hybrid fleets that

7569
09:25:00,983 --> 09:25:04,186
are automated and human driven in the near term, it is

7570
09:25:04,186 --> 09:25:06,722
important to recognize and prepare for the adverse impacts

7571
09:25:06,722 --> 09:25:12,122
av's will have on transportation providers, such as the

7572
09:25:12,195 --> 09:25:15,310
district's taxis, which have demonstrated the most reliable

7573
09:25:15,310 --> 09:25:16,232
commitment to accessible service.

7574
09:25:16,232 --> 09:25:19,401
we must be honest with the public on the impacts av's will

7575
09:25:19,401 --> 09:25:23,601
have on our employment agencies and viability.

7576
09:25:25,208 --> 09:25:29,645
undoubtedly new jobs will be created, but av's are not a win

7577
09:25:29,645 --> 09:25:33,616
for everyone involved. Some will have reduced wages or

7578
09:25:33,616 --> 09:25:35,510
a drastically changed livelihood.

7579
09:25:35,510 --> 09:25:38,421
our responsibility to those whose livelihoods we regulate is

7580
09:25:38,421 --> 09:25:40,956
to be honest and upfront with them to be honest about the

7581
09:25:40,956 --> 09:25:42,859
impacts this industry will have on them.

7582
09:25:42,859 --> 09:25:46,629
that's not to mean we don't move forward with davies, but it

7583
09:25:46,629 --> 09:25:49,765
means we have honest conversations about the

7584
09:25:49,765 --> 09:25:51,835
trade-offs. Lastly, the district department

7585
09:25:51,835 --> 09:25:54,704
of transportation remains the expert on transportation

7586
09:25:54,704 --> 09:25:58,575
planning and operations, yet today many consequential

7587
09:25:58,575 --> 09:26:01,377
activities affecting our transportation network originate

7588
09:26:01,377 --> 09:26:07,160
in the for higher space. We permit, regulate, and enforce

7589
09:26:07,160 --> 09:26:10,586
them on the street. Court transportation issues such

7590
09:26:10,586 --> 09:26:14,791
as traffic congestion, mode shift, competition with public

7591
09:26:14,791 --> 09:26:20,191
transit, vehicle miles traveled, and environmental impact are all

7592
09:26:20,396 --> 09:26:24,800
already at play among the millions of annual trips right

7593
09:26:24,800 --> 09:26:27,603
your companies perform. Commercial autonomous services

7594
09:26:27,603 --> 09:26:31,274
have huge potential to affect these elements, just as the

7595
09:26:31,274 --> 09:26:35,144
original rideshare companies did when they arrived more than a

7596
09:26:35,144 --> 09:26:37,814
decade ago. Dfhv believes strongly in the

7597
09:26:37,814 --> 09:26:41,618
value of the conversations that took place last month among the

7598
09:26:41,618 --> 09:26:46,418
for hire industry. Many areas of potential reform

7599
09:26:47,423 --> 09:26:50,599
were identified and a holistic view of for higher services will

7600
09:26:50,599 --> 09:26:54,236
yield the most effective regulatory framework, creating a

7601
09:26:54,236 --> 09:26:57,672
silo with another unique set of rules would hinder regulation

7602
09:26:57,672 --> 09:27:01,430
and enforcement, burden operators, and slow mobility

7603
09:27:01,430 --> 09:27:04,980
benefits to the public. Rather than further fragment the

7604
09:27:04,980 --> 09:27:08,384
rules and regulations governing for higher service, there are

7605
09:27:08,384 --> 09:27:11,984
opportunities to align requirements, consolidate roles,

7606
09:27:12,254 --> 09:27:15,254
and make modifications were necessary.

7607
09:27:16,325 --> 09:27:18,794
thank you for the opportunity to testify.

7608
09:27:18,794 --> 09:27:22,197
I am happy to address any questions you may have at this

7609
09:27:22,197 --> 09:27:26,397
time. Chair allen: thank you, mr. Vice

7610
09:27:30,739 --> 09:27:32,340
director. Mr. Stephan.

7611
09:27:32,340 --> 09:27:37,140
>> good evening. Thank you for the opportunity to

7612
09:27:37,813 --> 09:27:43,213
share otr's perspective on the bill, the autonomous vehicle

7613
09:27:43,819 --> 09:27:46,422
deployment authorization amendment act of 2026.

7614
09:27:46,422 --> 09:27:49,625
I should add I am a middle aged white person with long curly

7615
09:27:49,625 --> 09:27:53,229
brown hair, dark suit, and yellow tie.

7616
09:27:53,229 --> 09:27:59,168
oh vr accepts the district's goal and recognizes this as an

7617
09:27:59,168 --> 09:28:03,368
opportunity to transform right hailing and mobility.

7618
09:28:06,976 --> 09:28:08,244
however, the bill as introduced does not ensure accessibility of

7619
09:28:08,244 --> 09:28:11,614
vehicles, rider and bystander safety alerts, or boarding.

7620
09:28:11,614 --> 09:28:13,816
it only addresses app accessibility.

7621
09:28:13,816 --> 09:28:17,720
these shortcomings must be addressed to ensure compliance

7622
09:28:17,720 --> 09:28:19,256
with the americans with disabilities act, the d.c. Human

7623
09:28:19,256 --> 09:28:23,456
rights act, and related disability rights laws.

7624
09:28:25,270 --> 09:28:27,664
otr recommends and plummeting communication requirements into

7625
09:28:27,664 --> 09:28:31,801
the permit framework at the outset, placing the department

7626
09:28:31,801 --> 09:28:37,472
of for hire vehicles in charge of creating a holistic set of

7627
09:28:37,472 --> 09:28:42,678
regulations pursuant to the bill to align requirements across all

7628
09:28:42,678 --> 09:28:45,678
for-hire services. Companies outsource accessible

7629
09:28:50,286 --> 09:28:53,889
rider requests to a small fleet of wheelchair accessible taxis

7630
09:28:53,889 --> 09:28:57,427
they made their operating or staff, so this regularly leaves

7631
09:28:57,427 --> 09:29:02,164
disabled riders with excessive wait times and lack of reliable

7632
09:29:02,164 --> 09:29:02,899
service, particularly after hours.

7633
09:29:02,899 --> 09:29:06,499
av's should not reproduce these inequities.

7634
09:29:07,837 --> 09:29:10,406
we have several recommendations to improve the bill.

7635
09:29:10,406 --> 09:29:15,440
first, require commercially deployed av's to provide the

7636
09:29:15,440 --> 09:29:18,614
same service standards for wheelchair riders and be

7637
09:29:18,614 --> 09:29:22,584
prepared for independent use for those with sensory or cognitive

7638
09:29:22,584 --> 09:29:25,187
disabilities. These may not be driverless at

7639
09:29:25,187 --> 09:29:27,856
first, but companies cannot just continue to rely on limited

7640
09:29:27,856 --> 09:29:31,456
taxicab based fleets. Concrete vehicle accessibility

7641
09:29:31,927 --> 09:29:37,327
requirements and timelines for av's to expand their fleet

7642
09:29:38,734 --> 09:29:40,269
provide the opportunity to add more vehicles to the for hire

7643
09:29:40,269 --> 09:29:43,269
industry. Av companies should report

7644
09:29:45,141 --> 09:29:48,210
regularly on rides requested, rights fulfilled, and wait times

7645
09:29:48,210 --> 09:29:52,815
for passengers with disabilities along with the date and time to

7646
09:29:52,815 --> 09:29:56,819
ensure equitable service. Second, require pedestrian and

7647
09:29:56,819 --> 09:29:59,655
passenger safety alerts. Vehicles must detect and

7648
09:29:59,655 --> 09:30:02,223
communicate externally with pedestrians who are blind and

7649
09:30:02,223 --> 09:30:06,695
low vision, deaf and hard of hearing, wheelchair riders,

7650
09:30:06,695 --> 09:30:11,495
people using service candles or mobility devices, and

7651
09:30:13,769 --> 09:30:16,380
they must provide multimodal inputs and alerts that indicate

7652
09:30:16,380 --> 09:30:19,380
arrival, movement, and pending departure.

7653
09:30:19,641 --> 09:30:23,841
the district department of transportation's recent av

7654
09:30:25,180 --> 09:30:27,916
policy research underscores the importance of accessible

7655
09:30:27,916 --> 09:30:32,716
operations and safety oversight. Third, acquiring reporting from

7656
09:30:33,922 --> 09:30:36,925
av companies on their testing with people with disabilities.

7657
09:30:36,925 --> 09:30:41,196
as part of the permit renewal and renewal processes to ensure

7658
09:30:41,196 --> 09:30:44,196
safety. Prior to deployment, av

7659
09:30:44,399 --> 09:30:49,700
companies must work at the district government -- with the

7660
09:30:49,700 --> 09:30:53,408
district government, but also the the multimodal service

7661
09:30:53,408 --> 09:30:55,544
advisory committee, other committees like that backpack

7662
09:30:55,544 --> 09:30:59,415
and the mayor's commission on disabilities to identify their

7663
09:30:59,415 --> 09:31:01,818
pickup and drop-off zones should be established.

7664
09:31:01,818 --> 09:31:06,618
these accessible locations help many different users with

7665
09:31:06,722 --> 09:31:11,159
disabilities so that people who are blind may know where they

7666
09:31:11,159 --> 09:31:15,831
are picked up and dropped off. These can also prevent lane

7667
09:31:15,831 --> 09:31:19,431
blocking. We recognize questions may be

7668
09:31:19,601 --> 09:31:22,771
raised about cost. Ada puts these on the businesses

7669
09:31:22,771 --> 09:31:26,775
as a cost of doing business. Accessibility is not cost

7670
09:31:26,775 --> 09:31:29,244
prohibitive when designed from the outset and phased in.

7671
09:31:29,244 --> 09:31:34,644
av's can and should expand independence for visitors and

7672
09:31:34,849 --> 09:31:39,788
residents who do not or choose not to drive.

7673
09:31:39,788 --> 09:31:43,250
it will increase opportunities by providing equitable access

7674
09:31:43,250 --> 09:31:46,861
across all the wards. Those outcomes will not

7675
09:31:46,861 --> 09:31:49,264
materialize if accessibility is left to chance.

7676
09:31:49,264 --> 09:31:53,535
it never has in the past. Odr respectfully urges the

7677
09:31:53,535 --> 09:31:58,600
committee to amend the bill so accessibility is guaranteed at

7678
09:31:58,600 --> 09:32:02,344
av's at the curb and throughout operations from day one.

7679
09:32:02,344 --> 09:32:06,148
we stand ready to ensure that district leads the nation in

7680
09:32:06,148 --> 09:32:10,152
transportation accessibility. Thank you for the opportunity to

7681
09:32:10,152 --> 09:32:12,422
testify. I am happy to address any

7682
09:32:12,422 --> 09:32:16,492
questions you may have. Chair allen: thank you all very

7683
09:32:16,492 --> 09:32:18,827
much. Throughout the day, we have

7684
09:32:18,827 --> 09:32:21,363
heard different witnesses -- I know you and your teams have

7685
09:32:21,363 --> 09:32:23,980
been paying attention to the testimony.

7686
09:32:23,980 --> 09:32:27,836
folks kind of would say d.c. Did not get it right with a burger

7687
09:32:27,836 --> 09:32:31,206
and lyft coming in, disrupting the marketplace, and really

7688
09:32:31,206 --> 09:32:36,779
learned our lessons from it. What with the executives want to

7689
09:32:36,779 --> 09:32:40,249
do differently if we view this as an opportunity to be

7690
09:32:40,249 --> 09:32:44,652
deliberate, to be intentional, to take a lot of actions before

7691
09:32:44,652 --> 09:32:47,589
something actually goes into effect?

7692
09:32:47,589 --> 09:32:50,659
what are some of the main criteria -- maybe this is for

7693
09:32:50,659 --> 09:32:57,198
ms. Dach and director rogers, but anybody please feel free to

7694
09:32:57,198 --> 09:32:59,602
jump in, but what are the main things you would want to say

7695
09:32:59,602 --> 09:33:02,672
looking back on that, here is how we would do this part of the

7696
09:33:02,672 --> 09:33:05,672
conversation differently? >> I can start.

7697
09:33:08,745 --> 09:33:12,615
it is not just a rival of the tmc's we are looking back on.

7698
09:33:12,615 --> 09:33:16,352
we are looking at our learnings from the arrival of car share,

7699
09:33:16,352 --> 09:33:19,756
whether it is point based or fixed based, how to be align the

7700
09:33:19,756 --> 09:33:23,960
curve to the use of that, how do we set up the structures.

7701
09:33:23,960 --> 09:33:27,897
we have also had the arrival of scooter and doc-based bikes.

7702
09:33:27,897 --> 09:33:30,834
we are also dealing with personnel delivery devices.

7703
09:33:30,834 --> 09:33:33,436
we have a whole range of technologies and emerging

7704
09:33:33,436 --> 09:33:37,908
options that have come into our space, and each of them has

7705
09:33:37,908 --> 09:33:42,445
brought us different lessons. Thinking through, in this case,

7706
09:33:42,445 --> 09:33:46,315
we have some of the unique opportunity that we see this one

7707
09:33:46,315 --> 09:33:49,185
coming and can prepare for it, but we also recognize the

7708
09:33:49,185 --> 09:33:51,821
dangers of this one are much higher.

7709
09:33:51,821 --> 09:33:54,658
something goes wrong when there is no human in the car to help

7710
09:33:54,658 --> 09:33:59,629
take over and there are problems with trying to rearrange things.

7711
09:33:59,629 --> 09:34:02,832
we recognize that once something moves to deployment, it is much

7712
09:34:02,832 --> 09:34:05,401
harder to pull back. That is something we have

7713
09:34:05,401 --> 09:34:08,605
learned from all of the modes. Once they are here, we have to

7714
09:34:08,605 --> 09:34:12,742
deal with them as they are. I will also say that every one

7715
09:34:12,742 --> 09:34:15,945
of those has gone through an iteration of regulation and

7716
09:34:15,945 --> 09:34:20,820
oversight in that process. So recognizing that this field

7717
09:34:20,820 --> 09:34:23,620
in particular is changing quite rapidly and we need to maintain

7718
09:34:23,620 --> 09:34:26,823
as much flexibility as possible as one of the key items we are

7719
09:34:26,823 --> 09:34:29,759
interested in, in taking from those past learnings and

7720
09:34:29,759 --> 09:34:32,962
figuring out how we set ourselves up to iterate

7721
09:34:32,962 --> 09:34:37,367
effectively so we can keep the pace without necessarily having

7722
09:34:37,367 --> 09:34:39,369
to come back. The second one would be not

7723
09:34:39,369 --> 09:34:42,672
missing out on asking for the data now.

7724
09:34:42,672 --> 09:34:48,672
with uber and lyft, we did not get the data.

7725
09:34:49,612 --> 09:34:51,781
that got negotiated. We have some dates are coming

7726
09:34:51,781 --> 09:34:56,252
in, but as we will talk about, it does not quite -- it does not

7727
09:34:56,252 --> 09:34:59,588
fit the need in full. There is a lack of specificity

7728
09:34:59,588 --> 09:35:02,193
that relate to the curbside management.

7729
09:35:02,193 --> 09:35:04,794
we do not know much about the workforce involved, and all of

7730
09:35:04,794 --> 09:35:08,397
these things could be fixed, but once the regime was set up, it

7731
09:35:08,397 --> 09:35:11,802
was very hard to change it. Essentially, start by asking for

7732
09:35:11,802 --> 09:35:15,739
a lot and pare down from there, but also maintain flex ability

7733
09:35:15,739 --> 09:35:18,741
as much as possible within the agencies, where we can pivot and

7734
09:35:18,741 --> 09:35:23,541
adjust within the authorization we received from counsel.

7735
09:35:30,553 --> 09:35:31,822
>> to add onto that, we do have the opportunity now to set a

7736
09:35:31,822 --> 09:35:34,690
high bar for what we require. I think that was a common theme

7737
09:35:34,690 --> 09:35:39,228
we heard from all sides of the conversation today that we

7738
09:35:39,228 --> 09:35:42,980
really want to ensure and we have the opportunity that there

7739
09:35:42,980 --> 09:35:46,336
can be a true benefit to what av passenger service would look

7740
09:35:46,336 --> 09:35:50,536
like. So why not require those things

7741
09:35:52,174 --> 09:35:57,379
that we really want to see? It is easy for me to think about

7742
09:35:57,379 --> 09:35:59,982
the comparison to what we do require with our public vehicles

7743
09:35:59,982 --> 09:36:03,453
for hire when it comes to public transportation, taxi side, and a

7744
09:36:03,453 --> 09:36:07,256
lot of conversations we had in the public works committee, and

7745
09:36:07,256 --> 09:36:12,729
it is such a stark contrast to what is required today on the

7746
09:36:12,729 --> 09:36:16,400
private rideshare side. I think it is something we

7747
09:36:16,400 --> 09:36:19,802
should not repeat. We can really set a high bar and

7748
09:36:19,802 --> 09:36:22,805
just make sure we are getting the benefit.

7749
09:36:22,805 --> 09:36:26,750
we heard a lot about the potential safety benefits and

7750
09:36:26,750 --> 09:36:32,750
equity benefits and mobility benefits, but those all did not

7751
09:36:32,948 --> 09:36:38,687
come to fruition with what we have seen the past decade with

7752
09:36:38,687 --> 09:36:44,870
the rideshare companies. My biggest target is to require

7753
09:36:44,594 --> 09:36:50,594
but I think we collectively are optimistic about for av

7754
09:36:51,701 --> 09:36:56,105
passenger chair allen: service. Chair allen: the data elements

7755
09:36:56,105 --> 09:36:58,641
echo -- we heard several businesses talk about it today.

7756
09:36:58,641 --> 09:37:01,377
you are right. In that regard, being clear

7757
09:37:01,377 --> 09:37:08,577
about what data do our agencies need, and we heard how ddot

7758
09:37:12,121 --> 09:37:15,659
helps agencies with their service planning when it comes

7759
09:37:15,659 --> 09:37:17,192
in. Mr. Thomas, did you have

7760
09:37:17,192 --> 09:37:21,730
anything you wanted to add? >> no, I would just add the

7761
09:37:21,730 --> 09:37:24,600
whole gated approach in keeping with working your way through

7762
09:37:24,600 --> 09:37:27,202
the testing phase and deployment and eventually going back to

7763
09:37:27,202 --> 09:37:30,406
testing when you have a change and going back to deployment and

7764
09:37:30,406 --> 09:37:34,610
having the flexibility to work between those two where we are

7765
09:37:34,610 --> 09:37:39,615
not just stop, we have the ability to slide back, test,

7766
09:37:39,615 --> 09:37:43,287
fixed, then go back. >> I would add, like I said

7767
09:37:43,287 --> 09:37:48,687
earlier, it should be a requirement that these companies

7768
09:37:48,858 --> 09:37:52,270
establish and accessible -- a wheelchair accessible fleet at

7769
09:37:52,270 --> 09:37:54,231
the outset. We saw what happened when that

7770
09:37:54,231 --> 09:37:59,202
was not required. Chair allen: you had that really

7771
09:37:59,202 --> 09:38:00,104
well. Thank you.

7772
09:38:00,104 --> 09:38:02,371
let me ask a couple of quick questions.

7773
09:38:02,371 --> 09:38:07,100
this will be a little bit of just current landscape.

7774
09:38:07,100 --> 09:38:11,210
how many aav operators, companies are currently

7775
09:38:11,748 --> 09:38:13,782
operating/testing in the district?

7776
09:38:13,782 --> 09:38:20,382
>> we have two current testing entities, way moe and -- waymo

7777
09:38:29,799 --> 09:38:33,399
and zoox. Zoox has less than 10.

7778
09:38:33,802 --> 09:38:35,805
they do consider that confidential information, so I

7779
09:38:35,805 --> 09:38:38,474
suggest that you asked them so I don't get in trouble for telling

7780
09:38:38,474 --> 09:38:42,745
you on public record. >> less than 10 feels vague

7781
09:38:42,745 --> 09:38:43,614
enough, but it gives us a sense of scale.

7782
09:38:43,614 --> 09:38:48,830
>> we also had three entities pass through and give

7783
09:38:48,830 --> 09:38:49,952
notification, but they are not actively testing right now.

7784
09:38:49,952 --> 09:38:54,152
>> got it. You mentioned that the second

7785
09:38:58,561 --> 09:39:01,431
report -- don't know if I'm using the right terminology here

7786
09:39:01,431 --> 09:39:05,201
-- is being published at the end of the summer.

7787
09:39:05,201 --> 09:39:11,227
the end of the summer could be a three month window.

7788
09:39:11,227 --> 09:39:14,730
I am not trying to bang the drum from why isn't it here yet, but

7789
09:39:14,730 --> 09:39:18,800
I do believe the quality of work and expertise that is going to

7790
09:39:18,800 --> 09:39:21,670
come from that report is incredibly important for us and

7791
09:39:21,670 --> 09:39:23,439
our policymaking and decision-making.

7792
09:39:23,439 --> 09:39:26,141
I was hopeful we would see it today because I believe the work

7793
09:39:26,141 --> 09:39:28,276
product is going to help the committee and the council do a

7794
09:39:28,276 --> 09:39:32,314
better job of crafting a final bill.

7795
09:39:32,314 --> 09:39:38,870
so if you say to me the end of the summer is labor day in

7796
09:39:38,870 --> 09:39:40,689
september, you are going to make it really hard on the council

7797
09:39:40,689 --> 09:39:46,280
because you know our schedule. We are in the second year of a

7798
09:39:46,280 --> 09:39:48,297
two year counsel period. If legislation is not moving

7799
09:39:48,297 --> 09:39:53,635
through by mid-october, it does not stand a chance from a

7800
09:39:53,635 --> 09:39:56,572
calendar perspective to get through the process.

7801
09:39:56,572 --> 09:39:58,708
what does the end of summer mean?

7802
09:39:58,708 --> 09:40:05,581
>> we had some slowdowns, but we also went back and did some

7803
09:40:05,581 --> 09:40:09,180
revisions and corrected some things and tightened it up.

7804
09:40:09,180 --> 09:40:16,218
end of summer I think is -- end of summer, not july.

7805
09:40:18,728 --> 09:40:20,663
as soon as possible, how is that?

7806
09:40:20,663 --> 09:40:24,199
but still have some cleanup to do, but we are really close --

7807
09:40:24,199 --> 09:40:27,402
we still have some cleanup to do, but we are really close.

7808
09:40:27,402 --> 09:40:29,939
we are ready to soon submit it for final approval and review.

7809
09:40:29,939 --> 09:40:35,939
>> end of august? I just want to be very upfront,

7810
09:40:37,120 --> 09:40:40,616
not just with you guys, but with the public, if it comes in

7811
09:40:40,616 --> 09:40:44,352
september to us, it is getting to the point where we are unable

7812
09:40:44,352 --> 09:40:49,493
to do much with it. I believe there is expertise

7813
09:40:49,493 --> 09:40:52,762
that is going to be in this report.

7814
09:40:52,762 --> 09:40:57,833
if there is a draft, I don't have to publish it, but we will

7815
09:40:57,833 --> 09:41:01,604
create a better product by having the benefit of that work

7816
09:41:01,604 --> 09:41:06,404
product. >> can we get back to you --

7817
09:41:07,576 --> 09:41:10,111
>> we are presaging the message on to people who understand the

7818
09:41:10,111 --> 09:41:13,711
rest of the flow. >> all right.

7819
09:41:14,383 --> 09:41:14,916
friday. Got it.

7820
09:41:14,916 --> 09:41:19,716
ok. Does this report take a look at,

7821
09:41:20,656 --> 09:41:24,256
for example, our ev charging infrastructure?

7822
09:41:25,260 --> 09:41:28,196
I'm curious how much you have been able to take a look at the

7823
09:41:28,196 --> 09:41:31,670
impact on our ev charging infrastructure.

7824
09:41:31,670 --> 09:41:34,536
every now and then, we get a complaint that sometimes the

7825
09:41:34,536 --> 09:41:37,500
operators are using probably accessible av chargers to the

7826
09:41:37,500 --> 09:41:41,643
detriment of residents that are trying to use that.

7827
09:41:41,643 --> 09:41:48,618
is that a component of what the report is looking at, and if

7828
09:41:48,618 --> 09:41:51,553
not, what are the elements you are seeing is part of the ev

7829
09:41:51,553 --> 09:41:54,824
infrastructure impacts? >> we are not digging in on the

7830
09:41:54,824 --> 09:41:57,930
question of where are the chargers.

7831
09:41:57,930 --> 09:42:01,296
we have been in conversation with doe e, who will be

7832
09:42:01,296 --> 09:42:04,330
submitting written testimony as well.

7833
09:42:04,330 --> 09:42:07,670
we are following this -- it's an evolving space that also has to

7834
09:42:07,670 --> 09:42:12,774
do with the regional aspects here, because it is very

7835
09:42:12,774 --> 09:42:15,440
possible that given our lack of industrial past, the

7836
09:42:15,440 --> 09:42:17,847
availability of the land needed for the scale of charging that

7837
09:42:17,847 --> 09:42:22,718
would come with deployment may not be entirely encompassed

7838
09:42:22,718 --> 09:42:26,655
within the district. So our understanding as some of

7839
09:42:26,655 --> 09:42:28,724
the companies are looking regionally for where they would

7840
09:42:28,724 --> 09:42:32,861
put their depots, and maybe smaller facilities here in the

7841
09:42:32,861 --> 09:42:35,263
district. I think that depends as well on

7842
09:42:35,263 --> 09:42:40,663
what happens in maryland and virginia with their legislation.

7843
09:42:41,690 --> 09:42:44,541
a range of impacts are possible, so we have not specifically dug

7844
09:42:44,541 --> 09:42:47,675
in on where you should put that, but we think the control of how

7845
09:42:47,675 --> 09:42:50,278
that happens aligns well with this idea of using agencies for

7846
09:42:50,278 --> 09:42:54,749
where they already are in the processes we have.

7847
09:42:54,749 --> 09:42:58,219
between the development review process and zoning, I think

7848
09:42:58,219 --> 09:43:00,356
there is opportunities to weigh in and think about what those

7849
09:43:00,356 --> 09:43:03,425
facilities might look like within the district.

7850
09:43:03,425 --> 09:43:06,227
but without knowing the nature of the types of fleets and the

7851
09:43:06,227 --> 09:43:08,630
scale and size of those fleets, it is difficult to answer the

7852
09:43:08,630 --> 09:43:13,235
question of what would we want. The report is focused on the

7853
09:43:13,235 --> 09:43:16,772
policy levers that you might employ to achieve the outcomes

7854
09:43:16,772 --> 09:43:19,775
you want. Lesson to the deep, deep weeds

7855
09:43:19,775 --> 09:43:23,645
of how should we get that specific outcome -- less into

7856
09:43:23,645 --> 09:43:26,849
the deep, deep weeds of how we should get that specific

7857
09:43:26,849 --> 09:43:30,719
outcome, but what do you require versus what should be enabled in

7858
09:43:30,719 --> 09:43:33,189
legislation so we can maintain flexibility, and that may come

7859
09:43:33,189 --> 09:43:36,859
down to the terms and conditions that apply to a permit rather

7860
09:43:36,859 --> 09:43:40,262
than being codified fully in the regulation.

7861
09:43:40,262 --> 09:43:43,832
the nuances of data reporting might not fully go into the

7862
09:43:43,832 --> 09:43:46,435
regulation. It might come through in the

7863
09:43:46,435 --> 09:43:49,604
specific definitions we require in the terms and conditions

7864
09:43:49,604 --> 09:43:52,541
because we have more flexibility to respond to changes there with

7865
09:43:52,541 --> 09:43:56,145
the broad framework set. We are trying to think about how

7866
09:43:56,145 --> 09:44:00,949
we fit this into what we already have so that we are not creating

7867
09:44:00,949 --> 09:44:04,820
something new but actually leveraging the structures in

7868
09:44:04,820 --> 09:44:10,159
place to support this. >> you probably heard over the

7869
09:44:10,159 --> 09:44:13,295
course of the day a number of things where we want to be

7870
09:44:13,295 --> 09:44:16,364
prescriptive and we want to legislate, but I also believe

7871
09:44:16,364 --> 09:44:19,568
some of what we want to be able to do is enable the agencies to

7872
09:44:19,568 --> 09:44:23,972
make regulations, because sometimes it is to my benefit to

7873
09:44:23,972 --> 09:44:27,576
be prescriptive, sometimes I actually am tying your hands by

7874
09:44:27,576 --> 09:44:31,179
being prescriptive in a way you cannot have that flexibility.

7875
09:44:31,179 --> 09:44:33,850
so I want to work with you to make sure we land that in the

7876
09:44:33,850 --> 09:44:38,650
right way. We have also talked about the

7877
09:44:38,787 --> 09:44:42,624
course of the day what is ddot, how do we navigate this.

7878
09:44:42,624 --> 09:44:46,824
ddot primary traffic safety roadway design, curbside

7879
09:44:47,596 --> 09:44:50,132
management, agency, when it comes to managing congestion or

7880
09:44:50,132 --> 09:44:55,871
parking spaces by those are efforts I want ddot to lead on

7881
09:44:55,871 --> 09:44:57,730
it. Similarly, I think that is

7882
09:44:57,730 --> 09:45:01,273
probably best positioned, holistically assessed how safely

7883
09:45:03,145 --> 09:45:05,247
at autonomous vehicles operate in the district.

7884
09:45:05,247 --> 09:45:07,617
also hearing your testimony on the business of regulating for

7885
09:45:07,617 --> 09:45:11,817
higher vehicle service, so our customer experience,

7886
09:45:12,221 --> 09:45:18,221
accessibility would be where for higher vehicles will take the

7887
09:45:18,712 --> 09:45:22,312
primary role. What agency responsibility is

7888
09:45:23,250 --> 09:45:27,540
currently delegated to ddot in this legislation?

7889
09:45:27,540 --> 09:45:31,190
have you, in your testimony, identified specific pieces that

7890
09:45:31,190 --> 09:45:38,390
say this should be in for-hire vehicles or this should be in

7891
09:45:39,933 --> 09:45:41,100
ddot? Marcus through the distinction

7892
09:45:41,100 --> 09:45:44,670
before you leave. >> I think the general idea,

7893
09:45:44,670 --> 09:45:47,275
looking at all use cases for autonomy, it is helpful to have

7894
09:45:47,275 --> 09:45:51,244
one central point of view, to your point about assessing

7895
09:45:51,244 --> 09:45:54,214
safety, determining operational impacts on roadways, and we

7896
09:45:54,214 --> 09:45:56,416
believe that should stay with ddot.

7897
09:45:56,416 --> 09:46:00,420
but when it comes to offering the service, that would be

7898
09:46:00,420 --> 09:46:05,859
ddot's response ability when it comes to a passenger for hire

7899
09:46:05,859 --> 09:46:08,662
services. There might be cases where

7900
09:46:08,662 --> 09:46:10,963
something is outside dfhv's oversight.

7901
09:46:10,963 --> 09:46:15,163
larger han 10 passengers is under different oversight.

7902
09:46:18,672 --> 09:46:22,642
so if some sort of micro-transit service were to come in that had

7903
09:46:22,642 --> 09:46:25,846
a 15 passenger vehicle, where does that fit in?

7904
09:46:25,846 --> 09:46:30,717
but ddot is not in the business as of -- the business of

7905
09:46:30,717 --> 09:46:36,117
overseeing that type of service. Really the autonomy generally

7906
09:46:37,925 --> 09:46:40,795
through ddot and the specific use cases with their appropriate

7907
09:46:40,795 --> 09:46:44,395
partners, if that makes sense. >> ok.

7908
09:46:44,799 --> 09:46:48,999
director rogers? >> I would agree with that.

7909
09:46:49,235 --> 09:46:51,538
I don't see our role changing much from what it is today in

7910
09:46:51,538 --> 09:46:56,943
terms of what we do on a regular basis to receive applications

7911
09:46:56,943 --> 09:47:00,347
for operating authority and review those applications,

7912
09:47:00,347 --> 09:47:02,883
monitor the company's performance on a daily basis,

7913
09:47:02,883 --> 09:47:06,519
due on the street enforcement, handle complaints from the

7914
09:47:06,519 --> 09:47:10,119
public, all those sorts of functions.

7915
09:47:11,658 --> 09:47:14,760
they're going to be things unique to the av version of

7916
09:47:14,760 --> 09:47:21,330
this, but that same role for her agency in just regulating and

7917
09:47:21,330 --> 09:47:24,838
enforcing the passengers service and if the delivery service

7918
09:47:24,838 --> 09:47:27,838
becomes autonomous as well. >> ok.

7919
09:47:30,176 --> 09:47:33,380
we moved into the conversation around phased deployment,

7920
09:47:33,380 --> 09:47:36,282
whatever term we want to use here.

7921
09:47:36,282 --> 09:47:40,482
your testimony recommends a more phased approach.

7922
09:47:40,653 --> 09:47:43,389
I think you said the legislation looks at one phase.

7923
09:47:43,389 --> 09:47:46,792
I feel like we are skipping the fact that we have a testing

7924
09:47:46,792 --> 09:47:50,730
phase. In my mind, it actually is

7925
09:47:50,730 --> 09:47:56,469
multiple phases to get there. I asked earlier today, for

7926
09:47:56,469 --> 09:48:01,700
example, when we were testing, is it just sheer number of

7927
09:48:01,700 --> 09:48:02,208
miles? Should it be testing certain

7928
09:48:02,208 --> 09:48:06,746
number of miles in each ward? Should there be requirements set

7929
09:48:06,746 --> 09:48:10,750
forth of there being a certain number of miles driven in

7930
09:48:10,750 --> 09:48:14,620
daylight in sunlight, in rain, in snow, or do we just trust

7931
09:48:14,620 --> 09:48:17,857
they say yeah, we have tried every condition?

7932
09:48:17,857 --> 09:48:20,860
how prescriptive do you think, just quickly on the testing

7933
09:48:20,860 --> 09:48:25,765
phase, are you currently, or do you believe we should be in

7934
09:48:25,765 --> 09:48:28,568
saying just because you drove every block in ward 8 does not

7935
09:48:28,568 --> 09:48:30,360
mean you actually tested effectively?

7936
09:48:30,360 --> 09:48:33,636
wayne mo -- waymo has 25 vehicles.

7937
09:48:37,178 --> 09:48:40,247
I guess I have seen all 25 on my own blog.

7938
09:48:40,247 --> 09:48:42,848
I don't know if they are coming up and down my block because

7939
09:48:42,848 --> 09:48:47,530
they are my block, but I think I have seen at least 25 in the

7940
09:48:47,530 --> 09:48:49,456
last month or two. How prescriptive do you believe

7941
09:48:49,456 --> 09:48:57,256
you should be in terms of how it looks to adequately test it?

7942
09:48:58,264 --> 09:49:03,690
>> I agree that not all miles are the same.

7943
09:49:03,690 --> 09:49:07,874
there is a certain amount of, do you have enough time, have you

7944
09:49:07,874 --> 09:49:10,443
encountered enough things? I don't have a prescriptive list

7945
09:49:10,443 --> 09:49:13,880
in the testing phase that would move someone from driver in

7946
09:49:13,880 --> 09:49:19,819
testing to driverless testing. But we are looking to make sure

7947
09:49:19,819 --> 09:49:24,230
that the indications are there that there is enough experience

7948
09:49:24,230 --> 09:49:29,280
that they can do that. In testing, there was an easier

7949
09:49:29,280 --> 09:49:31,632
opportunity than if we do move someone too quickly, we can also

7950
09:49:31,632 --> 09:49:35,635
pull them back. That makes them step to

7951
09:49:35,635 --> 09:49:37,971
deployment a little bit trickier, because once you get

7952
09:49:37,971 --> 09:49:42,771
there, it is trickier to pull them back.

7953
09:49:43,243 --> 09:49:47,580
but I think big things we are looking for is exposure to the

7954
09:49:47,580 --> 09:49:50,851
dashing of types of streets. It is possible we will see

7955
09:49:50,851 --> 09:49:53,586
people coming in and their operational design domain will

7956
09:49:53,586 --> 09:49:56,856
not include all roads in the district.

7957
09:49:56,856 --> 09:49:59,859
most of the passengers services are not testing on freeways, or

7958
09:49:59,859 --> 09:50:03,663
they might be testing, but they are not preparing to deploy on

7959
09:50:03,663 --> 09:50:05,865
freeways. We also could imagine a scenario

7960
09:50:05,865 --> 09:50:07,601
where someone comes in and says they need to have a centerline

7961
09:50:07,601 --> 09:50:12,672
on the road. This came up with the bus that

7962
09:50:12,672 --> 09:50:17,243
came through and tested that u.s. Dot helped bring in.

7963
09:50:17,243 --> 09:50:19,879
it needed lines. They did not want to drive it

7964
09:50:19,879 --> 09:50:23,490
down a road. We would not have sent in 1 --

7965
09:50:23,490 --> 09:50:27,249
down one of the local roads anyway.

7966
09:50:27,654 --> 09:50:30,156
there could be cases where someone is not able to do all of

7967
09:50:30,156 --> 09:50:35,270
that, so we want to see they have explored their plans own or

7968
09:50:35,270 --> 09:50:38,565
types of roadways enough and that they have -- their planned

7969
09:50:38,565 --> 09:50:42,340
zone or types of roadways enough and that they have encountered

7970
09:50:42,340 --> 09:50:45,238
things that will be problematic. If you are thinking about

7971
09:50:45,238 --> 09:50:48,241
operating downtown, have you encountered a protest?

7972
09:50:48,241 --> 09:50:51,243
they are going to happen. You're going to have to respond

7973
09:50:51,243 --> 09:50:53,113
to that. Have you encountered a

7974
09:50:53,113 --> 09:50:57,313
motorcade? We are working towards this idea

7975
09:50:59,652 --> 09:51:02,922
of enough laundry lists of key edge cases that may not be edge

7976
09:51:02,922 --> 09:51:07,460
here in the district but might be someplace else, and really

7977
09:51:07,460 --> 09:51:13,460
looking to identify that. I don't think we have a

7978
09:51:15,134 --> 09:51:16,670
threshold. It is partial company readiness

7979
09:51:16,670 --> 09:51:19,205
and making sure they had the operational infrastructure to

7980
09:51:19,205 --> 09:51:21,675
support the move towards that, and some real expectations of

7981
09:51:21,675 --> 09:51:26,346
what will happen once you are there, what will constitute not

7982
09:51:26,346 --> 09:51:29,298
doing a good job beyond the obvious safety concerns, but

7983
09:51:29,298 --> 09:51:32,635
vehicles getting stranded, do you have the infrastructure to

7984
09:51:32,635 --> 09:51:35,871
collect the people and the equipment to get your vehicle in

7985
09:51:35,871 --> 09:51:39,975
stock in a timely manner, or is he getting stuck in the roadway

7986
09:51:39,975 --> 09:51:43,679
and blocking traffic while you try to get a tow truck there?

7987
09:51:43,679 --> 09:51:47,279
trying to think about the balance.

7988
09:51:54,857 --> 09:51:59,862
some of that burden may become lower in the district, but we do

7989
09:51:59,862 --> 09:52:04,266
definitely think there will need to be a step through testing

7990
09:52:04,266 --> 09:52:10,866
because we are unique. >> by our count, it is at least

7991
09:52:12,876 --> 09:52:13,876
a three step facing. We have the driver in testing,

7992
09:52:13,876 --> 09:52:17,279
then we have the driver out testing, then we have the fleet

7993
09:52:17,279 --> 09:52:20,279
cap testing before full deployment.

7994
09:52:22,550 --> 09:52:24,486
is there additional steps you are recommending, or are you

7995
09:52:24,486 --> 09:52:27,156
just kind of looking at the tweaks within those phases?

7996
09:52:27,156 --> 09:52:33,829
>> I think we would add one more in the driver out testing.

7997
09:52:33,829 --> 09:52:40,235
the regulations we have proposed did recommend -- did allow for

7998
09:52:40,235 --> 09:52:44,273
testing with passengers or goods movement after a period of time

7999
09:52:44,273 --> 09:52:48,430
so that the first time they try to do the curbside pickup or

8000
09:52:48,430 --> 09:52:52,181
drop-off is not a deployment. We would like to have seen

8001
09:52:52,181 --> 09:52:54,784
evidence of how they are going to handle that in advance.

8002
09:52:54,784 --> 09:52:56,785
whatever use case they are working towards, that we could

8003
09:52:56,785 --> 09:53:00,924
see that before they get to full commercial activity, have they,

8004
09:53:00,924 --> 09:53:05,994
for a small group of services, not for fares, just for testing,

8005
09:53:05,994 --> 09:53:08,597
been able to demonstrate how they would do that so we have

8006
09:53:08,597 --> 09:53:11,734
some confidence when they say yes, we are not parking in bike

8007
09:53:11,734 --> 09:53:16,405
lanes or we have figured out to do the pickup and drop-off off

8008
09:53:16,405 --> 09:53:18,207
for passengers with disabilities, we can get to the

8009
09:53:18,207 --> 09:53:20,409
curb so they can unload at the curb ramp.

8010
09:53:20,409 --> 09:53:22,811
those are things they have actually shown us.

8011
09:53:22,811 --> 09:53:26,415
the other piece is that in deployment -- what you are

8012
09:53:26,415 --> 09:53:29,150
getting at with the fleet cap of 200 aligns with what we are

8013
09:53:29,150 --> 09:53:33,856
thinking, which is that you do not just completely launch your

8014
09:53:33,856 --> 09:53:36,291
service in full with every single vehicle you think you

8015
09:53:36,291 --> 09:53:40,462
might need, which is where we heard people asking for 1000

8016
09:53:40,462 --> 09:53:42,664
vehicles, like san francisco has.

8017
09:53:42,664 --> 09:53:45,567
we can think about how we get there, and I think the bill

8018
09:53:45,567 --> 09:53:48,360
envisions that, but if that is the appropriate number, which I

8019
09:53:48,360 --> 09:53:50,772
do not think we have a set number anyone is aiming for

8020
09:53:50,772 --> 09:53:55,878
right now, but starting with the smaller zone, that maybe the

8021
09:53:55,878 --> 09:53:58,715
whole district is ambitious, and that going from 25 vehicles

8022
09:53:58,715 --> 09:54:03,718
testing on the streets to 200 vehicles in one fell swoop that

8023
09:54:03,718 --> 09:54:07,560
are then trying to cover the whole district could be a lot.

8024
09:54:07,560 --> 09:54:11,460
trying to think about could we also set smaller launch in areas

8025
09:54:11,460 --> 09:54:15,932
where you start small built with small equity provisions built

8026
09:54:15,932 --> 09:54:18,133
into that so they are not just serving downtown but are

8027
09:54:18,133 --> 09:54:22,604
actually meeting the needs -- the transportation needs of our

8028
09:54:22,604 --> 09:54:25,307
population, and then build up from there so we increase the

8029
09:54:25,307 --> 09:54:29,477
fleet, we increase the service areas, but in a more stepwise

8030
09:54:29,477 --> 09:54:31,947
fashion so it is not all at once.

8031
09:54:31,947 --> 09:54:36,147
>> how many waymos operate in san francisco?

8032
09:54:38,888 --> 09:54:43,688
>> basically from san francisco into the south bay.

8033
09:54:44,660 --> 09:54:46,694
I think we have heard it is a thousand.

8034
09:54:46,694 --> 09:54:52,940
>> we can round, give or take. >> the california public

8035
09:54:53,234 --> 09:54:55,471
utilities commission does have the numbers on this.

8036
09:54:55,471 --> 09:54:58,707
california is one of the rare states where you do know the

8037
09:54:58,707 --> 09:55:01,707
numbers. >> the reason an approximate

8038
09:55:02,645 --> 09:55:06,248
number is important, if the intentional legislation with 200

8039
09:55:06,248 --> 09:55:09,451
, coming from 25 to 200 is a big step up.

8040
09:55:09,451 --> 09:55:15,457
hearing folks say let's have an initial cap of seven hundred 50,

8041
09:55:15,457 --> 09:55:18,600
that feels like you're close to the full operation anyway, and

8042
09:55:18,600 --> 09:55:23,899
if we believe a phased approach is the right one, that would

8043
09:55:23,899 --> 09:55:26,202
argue for something closer to 200.

8044
09:55:26,202 --> 09:55:29,300
the exact number, I'm not sure, but it is somewhere in that

8045
09:55:29,300 --> 09:55:32,274
ballpark. I do think there is an argument

8046
09:55:32,274 --> 09:55:35,878
that holds a little logic, which is if we are trying to have an

8047
09:55:35,878 --> 09:55:41,150
entire city wide equity in that delivery time, capping that at

8048
09:55:41,150 --> 09:55:45,654
200 will make it very hard to deliver that.

8049
09:55:45,654 --> 09:55:49,224
what I am hearing you say, it is more of a thought exercise right

8050
09:55:49,224 --> 09:55:52,294
now, is if you keep the 200, you might have to say, all right,

8051
09:55:52,294 --> 09:55:55,630
what is a different way that I am trying to measure equity or

8052
09:55:55,630 --> 09:55:59,568
have a zone approach so that I can both have enough that I can

8053
09:55:59,568 --> 09:56:02,838
achieve that policy goal but not dilute it so much that we have

8054
09:56:02,838 --> 09:56:05,840
set a goal that we cannot actually achieve.

8055
09:56:05,840 --> 09:56:09,440
am I hearing that correctly? >> yes.

8056
09:56:09,978 --> 09:56:12,781
you can put more of them in a smaller zone.

8057
09:56:12,781 --> 09:56:15,316
I think this is also an opportunity to make sure that

8058
09:56:15,316 --> 09:56:18,187
what they are promising they will be able to do and their

8059
09:56:18,187 --> 09:56:21,550
operational plans, so we can observe that without having to

8060
09:56:21,550 --> 09:56:26,528
watch the entire district, so that the issues that might arise

8061
09:56:26,528 --> 09:56:29,132
become clearer faster so we can kind of nip them in the but if

8062
09:56:29,132 --> 09:56:33,268
we are having problems. Where is trying to get to a

8063
09:56:33,268 --> 09:56:35,700
point where you have enough coverage for the whole district

8064
09:56:35,700 --> 09:56:38,607
does result in a very large starting fleet.

8065
09:56:38,607 --> 09:56:41,476
if something goes awry, that's a lot of vehicles to potentially

8066
09:56:41,476 --> 09:56:43,876
go awry with. >> ok.

8067
09:56:44,646 --> 09:56:49,451
we also heard, as we talked about this phased approach.

8068
09:56:49,451 --> 09:56:52,955
we heard folks say we need to go a lot faster than that.

8069
09:56:52,955 --> 09:56:57,920
for me, january 1, 20 28, well, it may sound like it is far

8070
09:56:57,920 --> 09:57:00,863
away. It is not very far away.

8071
09:57:00,863 --> 09:57:03,866
purely from a realistic standpoint of legislation, let's

8072
09:57:03,866 --> 09:57:06,835
assume for the sake of argument here a bill gets passed sometime

8073
09:57:06,835 --> 09:57:11,774
in the fall. Let's say it passes and the

8074
09:57:11,774 --> 09:57:14,710
mayor's signs it. Now we have to go through with

8075
09:57:14,710 --> 09:57:18,514
the congressional review. Congress is not in session when

8076
09:57:18,514 --> 09:57:21,249
they are off campaigning or before the midterm elections,

8077
09:57:21,249 --> 09:57:24,519
nor the holidays, so by the time you get through the

8078
09:57:24,519 --> 09:57:27,388
congressional review, it is easily late spring.

8079
09:57:27,388 --> 09:57:31,600
the effective date isn't even until the, which means you've

8080
09:57:31,600 --> 09:57:35,798
got eight months, may be, to get to january 1, 2020 eight, and

8081
09:57:35,798 --> 09:57:39,478
from an implementation agency, that sounds pretty ambitious.

8082
09:57:39,478 --> 09:57:44,683
how did you react to hearing testimony about saying got to

8083
09:57:44,683 --> 09:57:47,830
move faster than january 1, 2028.

8084
09:57:53,158 --> 09:57:54,293
>> we are tracking at the way you are tracking it.

8085
09:57:54,293 --> 09:57:58,297
it would be 2028 or maybe the next quarter after that, but

8086
09:57:58,297 --> 09:58:00,365
that seems the quickest to be able to do it well at right.

8087
09:58:00,365 --> 09:58:05,504
I think that is the key to this. We want to get it right as much

8088
09:58:05,504 --> 09:58:08,440
as we can the first time, so rushing is not going to -- and

8089
09:58:08,440 --> 09:58:10,843
there is just gaetz we have to get through that we do not

8090
09:58:10,843 --> 09:58:12,843
control. >> ok.

8091
09:58:13,912 --> 09:58:18,650
I just think it is fair to the companies that are looking to

8092
09:58:18,650 --> 09:58:22,187
pilot or invest, as well as the public, we've got to be clear

8093
09:58:22,187 --> 09:58:25,557
eyed about what a time frame actually looks like.

8094
09:58:25,557 --> 09:58:29,328
>> one thing we have heard quite a bit is having a clear pathway

8095
09:58:29,328 --> 09:58:31,531
to deployment is what industry has indicated to us they are

8096
09:58:31,531 --> 09:58:35,868
looking for, that even if the time -- as long as they know

8097
09:58:35,868 --> 09:58:40,305
what is coming, that gives them more clarity for investing.

8098
09:58:40,305 --> 09:58:44,510
I would defer to them as to whether that is still in the

8099
09:58:44,510 --> 09:58:48,881
case, but in past conversations, that is what we have been told.

8100
09:58:48,881 --> 09:58:53,352
>> I think to be fair to companies, the uncertainty that

8101
09:58:53,352 --> 09:58:55,821
has existed for the last couple of years has been the biggest

8102
09:58:55,821 --> 09:59:01,930
part for them up, should I even be trying to invest here?

8103
09:59:01,930 --> 09:59:05,297
I am sure they always want to timeframe that is faster than we

8104
09:59:05,297 --> 09:59:07,833
can provide, but getting a pathway and certainty I do think

8105
09:59:07,833 --> 09:59:10,903
is a big deal and allows them to make better decision making what

8106
09:59:10,903 --> 09:59:15,240
they want to do. It is our job to say this is the

8107
09:59:15,240 --> 09:59:20,445
timeframe we can deliver. >> I would add I think some of

8108
09:59:20,445 --> 09:59:24,683
the potential negatives we have talked about today, whether that

8109
09:59:24,683 --> 09:59:28,320
is impact on current drivers, thinking through if there is a

8110
09:59:28,320 --> 09:59:30,723
limited geographic area that a launch happens, how do we

8111
09:59:30,723 --> 09:59:34,580
actually planned to make sure there is an equity benefit and a

8112
09:59:34,580 --> 09:59:39,458
transportation benefit, those things take time to plan, those

8113
09:59:41,266 --> 09:59:47,539
are not easy problems to solve. It makes the challenge more

8114
09:59:47,539 --> 09:59:50,539
difficult. >> safety obviously is supposed

8115
09:59:54,747 --> 09:59:58,347
to be a primary consideration here.

8116
09:59:58,684 --> 10:00:02,284
how would ddot propose measuring safety?

8117
10:00:21,400 --> 10:00:25,111
how would ddot go about assessing or how would you want

8118
10:00:25,111 --> 10:00:29,515
to assess, this is what you mean when we say save.

8119
10:00:29,515 --> 10:00:35,515
this is how we are determining or measuring against safety?

8120
10:00:42,594 --> 10:00:50,994
>> some of the -- we are not in this what format, we are not

8121
10:00:51,203 --> 10:00:54,873
comparing the national average of traffic fatalities.

8122
10:00:54,873 --> 10:00:57,543
we should be talking about the safety record of the

8123
10:00:57,543 --> 10:01:02,343
professional drivers in the for hire industry today.

8124
10:01:03,315 --> 10:01:06,752
those of the trips that are either going to be replaced or

8125
10:01:06,752 --> 10:01:09,752
augmented by autonomous passenger service.

8126
10:01:11,223 --> 10:01:17,823
it is that safety record -- >> you make a good point.

8127
10:01:19,300 --> 10:01:22,768
is that a quantifiable, knowable safety metric to measure

8128
10:01:22,768 --> 10:01:27,568
against? >> it brings me to the point of

8129
10:01:30,175 --> 10:01:33,244
-- millions and millions of trips more than the good data we

8130
10:01:33,244 --> 10:01:38,644
do have on the public vehicle for hire side.

8131
10:01:38,884 --> 10:01:44,884
we probably couldn't tell you exact vehicle miles traveled for

8132
10:01:46,725 --> 10:01:48,861
serious injury. I think it is interesting with

8133
10:01:48,861 --> 10:01:54,733
these fleets that will be owned by autonomous vehicle operators,

8134
10:01:54,733 --> 10:01:56,735
they actually have a lot more technology but a lot more

8135
10:01:56,735 --> 10:01:59,872
insight into when a crash happens so they can meet the bar

8136
10:01:59,872 --> 10:02:04,676
much easier than the argument that taxi companies could make

8137
10:02:04,676 --> 10:02:08,280
it too but uber and lyft have had for decades is we don't

8138
10:02:08,280 --> 10:02:11,617
employ those drivers, we don't own those vehicles, so it is

8139
10:02:11,617 --> 10:02:14,820
difficult for them to detect when a crash occurs, but that is

8140
10:02:14,820 --> 10:02:18,490
not going to be the case with the autonomous lead.

8141
10:02:18,490 --> 10:02:22,900
a really high bar from notification.

8142
10:02:23,695 --> 10:02:27,895
>> ok. >> I guess we thought about it

8143
10:02:29,234 --> 10:02:34,634
particularly in the testing phase, a big recommendation is

8144
10:02:35,574 --> 10:02:39,774
looking for the patterns in the behavior.

8145
10:02:40,645 --> 10:02:45,684
right now there are driver in -- there is a test operator in the

8146
10:02:45,684 --> 10:02:49,188
vehicle that can take over. We don't actually know the date

8147
10:02:49,188 --> 10:02:52,391
of when they are taking over or not, but understanding the

8148
10:02:52,391 --> 10:02:55,994
circumstances where there are interventions by the human.

8149
10:02:55,994 --> 10:02:58,797
if driverless testing will be the interventions by remote

8150
10:02:58,797 --> 10:03:02,267
assistance or the part where the vehicle needed to be rescued.

8151
10:03:02,267 --> 10:03:06,204
all of those, we are looking for a pattern of declining

8152
10:03:06,204 --> 10:03:09,740
intervention, that the vehicle is able to handle the context

8153
10:03:09,740 --> 10:03:14,946
more and more correctly. We also hopefully have a robust

8154
10:03:14,946 --> 10:03:17,820
network of automated safety cameras.

8155
10:03:17,820 --> 10:03:21,686
as we have had a lot of discussion today, I certainly

8156
10:03:21,686 --> 10:03:24,622
would argue that one of these vehicles setting off one of the

8157
10:03:24,622 --> 10:03:26,958
speed cameras will be highly problematic.

8158
10:03:26,958 --> 10:03:31,297
it is a pretty high bar. You've got a pass to set that

8159
10:03:31,297 --> 10:03:34,866
off if the vehicle is not going to go above the speed limit.

8160
10:03:34,866 --> 10:03:38,770
red light cameras, there's always a little bit of nuance,

8161
10:03:38,770 --> 10:03:42,474
and the vehicles have a tendency to hesitate a little bit more.

8162
10:03:42,474 --> 10:03:45,777
maybe there is a case where that gets sent off.

8163
10:03:45,777 --> 10:03:48,455
all fodder for conversation. But I think what we are looking

8164
10:03:48,455 --> 10:03:51,658
at is how do we use the monitoring systems we already

8165
10:03:51,658 --> 10:03:55,262
have in place and the data we will have for them to look for a

8166
10:03:55,262 --> 10:03:56,531
pattern of declining intervention such that it is

8167
10:03:56,531 --> 10:04:00,731
clear the vehicles are handling things well.

8168
10:04:00,734 --> 10:04:05,673
that said, this is also going to be an ongoing monitoring need.

8169
10:04:05,673 --> 10:04:08,876
the vehicles go through software updates.

8170
10:04:08,876 --> 10:04:14,876
things change around them. Do they have -- do they

8171
10:04:15,883 --> 10:04:19,887
understand what is going on with our construction?

8172
10:04:19,887 --> 10:04:25,287
have they made a change in the behavior changing?

8173
10:04:26,360 --> 10:04:29,960
having said the vehicle may past

8174
10:04:30,898 --> 10:04:34,235
this is something that will require ongoing monitoring, much

8175
10:04:34,235 --> 10:04:38,105
of the what if you do the driver tracking types of insurance,

8176
10:04:38,105 --> 10:04:43,111
like to drive safe and safe, the progressive snapshot -- whatever

8177
10:04:43,111 --> 10:04:46,111
the companies call their services.

8178
10:04:47,448 --> 10:04:51,319
that is an ongoing monitoring by the insurance company to say how

8179
10:04:51,319 --> 10:04:54,387
is your driving behavior doing? I think we have to think about

8180
10:04:54,387 --> 10:04:58,525
watching ev's in the same manner because it is the brain that is

8181
10:04:58,525 --> 10:05:01,896
in there that continues to evolve.

8182
10:05:01,896 --> 10:05:05,933
it is not that you get to be a fully fledged automated driving

8183
10:05:05,933 --> 10:05:08,302
system set loose and nothing changes again.

8184
10:05:08,302 --> 10:05:11,500
it is also understanding their safety structures and how they

8185
10:05:11,500 --> 10:05:15,343
are doing in making sure what they are putting up on the

8186
10:05:15,343 --> 10:05:20,514
street, there are verification processes such they can do that.

8187
10:05:20,514 --> 10:05:23,617
we need to be keeping some experts on retainer to help us

8188
10:05:23,617 --> 10:05:26,620
with advising in this process because there are changes going

8189
10:05:26,620 --> 10:05:30,220
on. Going to the conferences with

8190
10:05:31,625 --> 10:05:35,960
the manufacturers, it is a very complex process they are doing.

8191
10:05:35,960 --> 10:05:37,732
it is not a simple as saying don't break the speed limit.

8192
10:05:37,732 --> 10:05:41,101
there's a lot more into it. >> ok.

8193
10:05:41,101 --> 10:05:48,301
>> I will just add -- if they also change vehicle type, they

8194
10:05:48,509 --> 10:05:50,577
need to go back because that is a new vehicle with different

8195
10:05:50,577 --> 10:05:53,581
size and dimensions. There are a lot of factors that

8196
10:05:53,581 --> 10:05:57,181
will change. We cannot really collaborate

8197
10:05:58,652 --> 10:06:00,921
right up because they have a person behind the wheel.

8198
10:06:00,921 --> 10:06:04,258
once you can get out of that, we will understand how they are

8199
10:06:04,258 --> 10:06:08,295
doing, right? They say they are at 94%.

8200
10:06:08,295 --> 10:06:12,933
>> ok. Let me switch gears to a couple

8201
10:06:12,933 --> 10:06:17,337
other items. When it comes to restricting ads

8202
10:06:17,337 --> 10:06:21,537
development -- sorry, deployment, the bill requires

8203
10:06:25,790 --> 10:06:27,481
autonomous vehicles to register, which I think is what we want

8204
10:06:27,481 --> 10:06:30,751
otherwise we don't know that they are there.

8205
10:06:30,751 --> 10:06:33,200
does not necessarily permit the operation.

8206
10:06:33,200 --> 10:06:37,358
do you have any feedback on the limitations established, looking

8207
10:06:37,358 --> 10:06:41,558
at lines 94 through 95? Aviation into certain context.

8208
10:06:44,665 --> 10:06:47,635
and if that is overly specific, you can get back to me.

8209
10:06:47,635 --> 10:06:51,835
>> we will get back to you. >> ok.

8210
10:06:52,206 --> 10:06:55,175
I will break it down this way. Think about level one, level

8211
10:06:55,175 --> 10:06:58,313
two. I don't know if you were here

8212
10:06:58,313 --> 10:07:04,185
when one of her witnesses talked about -- if not actually level

8213
10:07:04,185 --> 10:07:07,530
three, sounded awfully close to operating level 3 three on the

8214
10:07:07,530 --> 10:07:10,925
roads in the district, which is not allowed.

8215
10:07:10,925 --> 10:07:14,795
what are your thoughts around vehicles equipped at level one

8216
10:07:14,795 --> 10:07:18,995
and level two? >> those are not autonomous

8217
10:07:19,133 --> 10:07:22,737
vehicles, to be clear. Those are advanced driver

8218
10:07:22,737 --> 10:07:26,474
specific systems. >> yes, but there are elements

8219
10:07:26,474 --> 10:07:29,810
of autonomous driving in level one and level two, right?

8220
10:07:29,810 --> 10:07:37,100
my vehicle right now -- I have a supergroup -- subaru forester.

8221
10:07:39,720 --> 10:07:44,691
I have two little eyeballs and it will be pet me if I go across

8222
10:07:44,691 --> 10:07:48,228
the alley. It slams on the brakes every now

8223
10:07:48,228 --> 10:07:51,650
and then because it thinks it is protecting me.

8224
10:07:51,650 --> 10:07:53,767
it is jarring for me but it is automated in terms of what it is

8225
10:07:53,767 --> 10:07:57,904
doing, right? I'm using a little bit of the

8226
10:07:57,904 --> 10:08:00,909
level 1, level 2 from the automation standpoint.

8227
10:08:00,909 --> 10:08:05,709
>> the society of automotive engineers, that standard does

8228
10:08:06,113 --> 10:08:10,717
define this. Level zero through -- zero is no

8229
10:08:10,717 --> 10:08:13,717
automation. There are automation features,

8230
10:08:15,456 --> 10:08:19,193
but those require that the human continue to be engaged, right?

8231
10:08:19,193 --> 10:08:22,195
the car slams on the brakes, which you will then override and

8232
10:08:22,195 --> 10:08:25,700
say, no, that is just tree branches.

8233
10:08:25,700 --> 10:08:29,300
they are very helpful features, they are great to have and we

8234
10:08:29,300 --> 10:08:33,808
are definitely facing a period where there are a lot of level

8235
10:08:33,808 --> 10:08:37,345
two vehicles that are being sold as level two plus plus, which is

8236
10:08:37,345 --> 10:08:41,545
the term that is being referred to.

8237
10:08:42,349 --> 10:08:45,685
the authors would remind you there is no two plus plus.

8238
10:08:45,685 --> 10:08:50,230
you are either two or three. The key distinction is whether

8239
10:08:50,230 --> 10:08:51,250
the driver needs to remain engaged the entire time.

8240
10:08:51,250 --> 10:08:58,225
the two's can do a lot. The three should mean you are

8241
10:08:58,832 --> 10:09:01,568
able to tune out almost entirely during when the car is doing the

8242
10:09:01,568 --> 10:09:04,438
driving. >> is that allowed in d.c. Now?

8243
10:09:04,438 --> 10:09:07,438
>> to completely tune up? No.

8244
10:09:08,609 --> 10:09:12,513
you need to stay engaged. There was only one company

8245
10:09:12,513 --> 10:09:16,283
marketing level three vehicles in the u.s.

8246
10:09:16,283 --> 10:09:18,786
mercedes heather drive pilot system in southern california

8247
10:09:18,786 --> 10:09:22,456
and over to lowe's vegas -- las vegas.

8248
10:09:22,456 --> 10:09:24,892
they are no longer selling that system.

8249
10:09:24,892 --> 10:09:27,961
everything being sold to consumers is a level 2 vehicle.

8250
10:09:27,961 --> 10:09:30,197
the human needs to pay attention.

8251
10:09:30,197 --> 10:09:34,667
the human cannot be impaired. Don't go to sleep, don't look at

8252
10:09:34,667 --> 10:09:37,337
your phone, watch what your car is doing.

8253
10:09:37,337 --> 10:09:42,142
>> at least right now, the regime we are in and the regime

8254
10:09:42,142 --> 10:09:48,548
ddot supports, correct me if I am wrong, level three system

8255
10:09:48,548 --> 10:09:51,552
should not be allowed to operate in the district for a private

8256
10:09:51,552 --> 10:09:53,552
vehicle? >> yes.

8257
10:09:54,855 --> 10:09:59,499
we think it should be fleet operated and in that context,

8258
10:09:59,499 --> 10:10:01,835
you will generally see people pushing for level four vehicles.

8259
10:10:01,835 --> 10:10:06,635
>> we have some conversation earlier today about remote

8260
10:10:07,541 --> 10:10:12,512
operators and about whether or not a remote operator should be

8261
10:10:12,512 --> 10:10:16,712
required to take the district driving test.

8262
10:10:17,840 --> 10:10:17,984
do you have any thoughts about that?

8263
10:10:17,984 --> 10:10:21,584
>> it is an interesting element here.

8264
10:10:22,889 --> 10:10:25,258
I would note there is a distinction between a remote

8265
10:10:25,258 --> 10:10:30,630
operator and a remote assistant. Almost all of the companies we

8266
10:10:30,630 --> 10:10:34,735
are dealing with only have remote assistants, which is that

8267
10:10:34,735 --> 10:10:37,270
the person remotely in most cases can drop breadcrumbs for

8268
10:10:37,270 --> 10:10:41,875
the vehicle, but when the actual movement of the vehicle occurs,

8269
10:10:41,875 --> 10:10:45,278
the automated driving system is still doing the driving,

8270
10:10:45,278 --> 10:10:46,747
maintaining situational awareness.

8271
10:10:46,747 --> 10:10:49,148
we are not supportive of remote driving.

8272
10:10:49,148 --> 10:10:53,353
we want the vehicle -- it is either the vehicle is driving or

8273
10:10:53,353 --> 10:10:57,223
the person in the vehicle is driving, not someone watching

8274
10:10:57,223 --> 10:10:59,926
through a camera, playing a videogame on our streets.

8275
10:10:59,926 --> 10:11:02,896
there are tele-operations companies that sit in that

8276
10:11:02,896 --> 10:11:07,367
space, and I think I would be safe saying we don't support the

8277
10:11:07,367 --> 10:11:10,771
idea of those coming in. >> do you think the legislation

8278
10:11:10,771 --> 10:11:14,841
needs to be specific about that? To be very clear what is a

8279
10:11:14,841 --> 10:11:18,879
remote operator, what is remote assistance, so we don't end up

8280
10:11:18,879 --> 10:11:20,980
with anyone trying to play games on how they are defining

8281
10:11:20,980 --> 10:11:22,980
different criteria? >> potentially.

8282
10:11:24,851 --> 10:11:30,390
I don't know the full -- it would be helpful to do a re-skim

8283
10:11:30,390 --> 10:11:32,658
of the market as to whether anyone is actually using remote

8284
10:11:32,658 --> 10:11:37,265
driving in the ads context. I would generally say that would

8285
10:11:37,265 --> 10:11:39,999
be fine. My only recommendation would be

8286
10:11:39,999 --> 10:11:44,710
to make sure -- if possible, reference the definitions that

8287
10:11:44,710 --> 10:11:48,475
are coming out of sae because they were built up within the

8288
10:11:48,475 --> 10:11:52,545
industry and a lot of clarity about what that term means in

8289
10:11:52,545 --> 10:11:56,745
the industry standard. >> what are the anticipated

8290
10:11:58,818 --> 10:12:03,618
staff needs for reviewing permits related to commercial

8291
10:12:03,825 --> 10:12:04,891
operations and monitoring compliance afterwards?

8292
10:12:04,891 --> 10:12:10,497
does ddot have all the existing staff you need to be able to

8293
10:12:10,497 --> 10:12:14,968
move into this and slacked -- and entire space, map out what

8294
10:12:14,968 --> 10:12:17,304
you think this entire staffing needs are?

8295
10:12:17,304 --> 10:12:23,304
>> yeah, we currently have stephanie and we have two other

8296
10:12:24,310 --> 10:12:28,510
dedicated positions. Obviously, as we learned where

8297
10:12:29,782 --> 10:12:31,784
this is going, we would definitely need to increase

8298
10:12:31,784 --> 10:12:35,984
that. Scale it on whether they will

8299
10:12:36,989 --> 10:12:39,593
have two companies, three companies, 200 vehicles out on

8300
10:12:39,593 --> 10:12:43,997
the street, 1000. As that scale builds, we will

8301
10:12:43,997 --> 10:12:47,133
need support to manage that. We are thinking about what that

8302
10:12:47,133 --> 10:12:53,206
looks like and understanding what the demand would be on us

8303
10:12:53,206 --> 10:12:55,642
are part of it and what we would need to do --

8304
10:12:55,642 --> 10:13:00,414
>> what does that look like for the department of vehicles?

8305
10:13:00,414 --> 10:13:06,753
>> I would say the same. It would be helpful to have a

8306
10:13:06,753 --> 10:13:09,489
better indication of the volume of activity we would need to do.

8307
10:13:09,489 --> 10:13:14,889
generally speaking, we are not overwhelmed currently with the

8308
10:13:15,328 --> 10:13:18,498
application and renewal process for our private for higher

8309
10:13:18,498 --> 10:13:23,298
operations. I would expect we would need a

8310
10:13:24,104 --> 10:13:30,704
slight increase in a position maybe, but there are not that

8311
10:13:30,844 --> 10:13:33,347
many private operators, what we call digital dispatch and

8312
10:13:33,347 --> 10:13:37,818
private business. It is not a high number today.

8313
10:13:37,818 --> 10:13:41,321
we could probably accommodate a few more applications a year.

8314
10:13:41,321 --> 10:13:47,321
>> then, do you have any thoughts or feedback on the

8315
10:13:49,129 --> 10:13:55,669
proposed either vmt costs or we also heard testimony about, not

8316
10:13:55,669 --> 10:13:59,869
necessarily vehicles miles traveled, but hours travel.

8317
10:14:00,173 --> 10:14:04,678
recognizing we are a compact base and may miles is not the

8318
10:14:04,678 --> 10:14:05,813
best way to measure that. Do you have any thoughts on

8319
10:14:05,813 --> 10:14:08,150
that? >> it is one we would like to

8320
10:14:08,150 --> 10:14:13,620
give more thought to. I will obnoxiously note there is

8321
10:14:13,620 --> 10:14:18,910
a program, report number 1165 which just came out.

8322
10:14:18,910 --> 10:14:21,610
I chaired the panel that produce that report.

8323
10:14:21,610 --> 10:14:23,697
it is about revenue related models for new mobility.

8324
10:14:23,697 --> 10:14:26,566
I think it is a great framework laid out that we would love to

8325
10:14:26,566 --> 10:14:30,103
chat through with you. A key thing is looking through

8326
10:14:30,103 --> 10:14:32,106
the objectives of what we are trying to achieve with the fees

8327
10:14:32,106 --> 10:14:34,974
we are imposing. I think there are some elements

8328
10:14:34,974 --> 10:14:37,977
of the fee that we think could be approached a bit differently.

8329
10:14:37,977 --> 10:14:42,777
the vmt has a straight gas tax replacement.

8330
10:14:43,149 --> 10:14:46,452
I am not sure the number we've got aligns with that but I don't

8331
10:14:46,452 --> 10:14:50,390
think the fee is one we are solely doing for the purposes of

8332
10:14:50,390 --> 10:14:53,926
the gas tax. We are using it to achieve other

8333
10:14:53,926 --> 10:14:56,326
objectives. Encouraging efficiency, dealing

8334
10:14:56,529 --> 10:15:01,468
with congestion. In that sense, it makes it more

8335
10:15:01,468 --> 10:15:04,538
administratively complex. As an agency, probably won't

8336
10:15:04,538 --> 10:15:08,408
want this perhaps. In terms of achieving the

8337
10:15:08,408 --> 10:15:12,146
objectives we all want for the system, I think thinking about

8338
10:15:12,146 --> 10:15:15,482
the nuances that can be applied within that.

8339
10:15:15,482 --> 10:15:17,618
is it looking differently at when and where the miles are

8340
10:15:17,618 --> 10:15:21,222
driven? Who is in the vehicle, what

8341
10:15:21,222 --> 10:15:24,491
types of services are being provided, and how do we use the

8342
10:15:24,491 --> 10:15:28,895
tools to incentivize the behavior we want as well as

8343
10:15:28,895 --> 10:15:31,164
dis-incentivize the negative impacts and negative

8344
10:15:31,164 --> 10:15:34,367
externalities? Whether that is some combination

8345
10:15:34,367 --> 10:15:38,105
of vehicle hours or miles, thought those were interesting

8346
10:15:38,105 --> 10:15:41,107
suggestions. I don't have a direct comment

8347
10:15:41,107 --> 10:15:42,442
right now but I think there's a lot to dig through.

8348
10:15:42,442 --> 10:15:49,420
>> I think it is another policy area and potential policy lever

8349
10:15:49,649 --> 10:15:53,787
that would benefit from being uniform across the for-hire

8350
10:15:53,787 --> 10:15:56,323
industry. We talked about that in the

8351
10:15:56,323 --> 10:16:00,523
public works committee. Focusing on the negative

8352
10:16:01,727 --> 10:16:04,597
externalities, you are trying to discourage.

8353
10:16:04,597 --> 10:16:10,540
something like a vmt or a miles or minutes maybe is probably a

8354
10:16:10,540 --> 10:16:17,948
better tool to do that than a per trip, whether it is a flat

8355
10:16:17,948 --> 10:16:24,888
fee like you pay for a taxi trip or a 6% gross receipt which I

8356
10:16:24,888 --> 10:16:28,158
think is probably the least directly tied to the behaviors

8357
10:16:28,158 --> 10:16:32,295
you want to change. I think having it uniform across

8358
10:16:32,295 --> 10:16:33,563
all these trips is the way to go.

8359
10:16:33,563 --> 10:16:38,236
>> all right. I was going to turn to you for a

8360
10:16:38,236 --> 10:16:41,372
little bit. We had a large amount of

8361
10:16:41,372 --> 10:16:43,474
conversation today around accessibility.

8362
10:16:43,474 --> 10:16:45,709
you have highlighted in your own testimony.

8363
10:16:45,709 --> 10:16:52,909
earlier today when we asked some of the operators how will you

8364
10:16:53,783 --> 10:16:55,786
help make sure you are creating wheelchair accessible vehicles,

8365
10:16:55,786 --> 10:17:01,786
one representative said we actually make -- we are working

8366
10:17:02,127 --> 10:17:06,797
on a purpose built vehicle. We're a technology company so we

8367
10:17:06,797 --> 10:17:08,933
don't actually build the cars and we can't find a way to make

8368
10:17:08,933 --> 10:17:12,533
it work. An unsatisfactory answer for

8369
10:17:12,736 --> 10:17:16,540
what we need and it's felt very familiar from a few years back.

8370
10:17:16,540 --> 10:17:21,340
you mentioned that essentially rideshare companies that don't

8371
10:17:24,548 --> 10:17:25,682
provide wheelchair accessible vehicles, they will just

8372
10:17:25,682 --> 10:17:30,220
outsource rides and that ends up a worse experience for everyone.

8373
10:17:30,220 --> 10:17:33,757
what does it look like just to say you don't have an option if

8374
10:17:33,757 --> 10:17:37,360
you want the permit to operate, you have to meet this?

8375
10:17:37,360 --> 10:17:40,164
I think you mentioned phasing. Is there a phased approach you

8376
10:17:40,164 --> 10:17:42,566
recommend, a best practice or model?

8377
10:17:42,566 --> 10:17:48,500
>> I think the northstar on this, you can refer back to the

8378
10:17:48,500 --> 10:17:50,107
ada and the d.c. Human rights act.

8379
10:17:50,107 --> 10:17:53,777
we are talking about equal service, equitable service

8380
10:17:53,777 --> 10:17:58,248
across the board. If you are providing a way time

8381
10:17:58,248 --> 10:18:01,118
of one minute for someone without a disability or does not

8382
10:18:01,118 --> 10:18:04,654
need a wheelchair accessible vehicle, we want to see

8383
10:18:04,654 --> 10:18:06,324
something similar to that for someone who does have a

8384
10:18:06,324 --> 10:18:11,124
wheelchair vehicle. I am not suggesting a fleet

8385
10:18:11,594 --> 10:18:13,664
size but parity in terms of service.

8386
10:18:13,664 --> 10:18:16,132
when we are talking about what is accessible for people.

8387
10:18:16,132 --> 10:18:22,732
to your point, yeah, we heard some company said they don't

8388
10:18:22,806 --> 10:18:25,142
produce the vehicles but we understand they are the ones

8389
10:18:25,142 --> 10:18:30,146
that are still providing this service to district residents

8390
10:18:30,146 --> 10:18:35,352
and visitors. I think they need to be held

8391
10:18:35,352 --> 10:18:38,222
responsible for acquiring those successful vehicles.

8392
10:18:38,222 --> 10:18:42,559
while we have heard previously from other testimony that there

8393
10:18:42,559 --> 10:18:44,761
are those autonomous vehicles that are accessible currently,

8394
10:18:44,761 --> 10:18:49,567
one company makes them at least, in the meantime, we are not

8395
10:18:49,567 --> 10:18:51,902
asking those be deployed immediately.

8396
10:18:51,902 --> 10:18:54,905
we can have drivers were operating wheelchair accessible

8397
10:18:54,905 --> 10:18:57,441
vehicles. I don't just want to emphasize

8398
10:18:57,441 --> 10:19:02,450
those either. We also are asking that these

8399
10:19:02,450 --> 10:19:04,849
vehicles be accessible for people who are blind or low

8400
10:19:04,849 --> 10:19:07,351
vision, people who are deaf or hard of hearing.

8401
10:19:07,351 --> 10:19:11,551
that requires multimodal input and communication devices.

8402
10:19:13,557 --> 10:19:18,529
we heard about that as well. I think when we talk about

8403
10:19:18,529 --> 10:19:22,799
phased-in approach, we are talking about parity in service,

8404
10:19:22,799 --> 10:19:26,337
is my thought. And I would be ok with that.

8405
10:19:26,337 --> 10:19:29,937
>> what is our current accessibility requirements?

8406
10:19:30,740 --> 10:19:34,274
>> in my opinion, they have barely any.

8407
10:19:35,412 --> 10:19:40,684
given what you noted, the bottom line can refer you elsewhere.

8408
10:19:40,684 --> 10:19:42,586
that is pretty much what lyft does.

8409
10:19:42,586 --> 10:19:48,586
uber is outsourcing it more. I second everything peter said.

8410
10:19:50,226 --> 10:19:53,364
it is just as difficult for a taxi company who does not

8411
10:19:53,364 --> 10:19:59,103
manufacture its own vehicles or own the vehicles to acquire or

8412
10:19:59,103 --> 10:20:01,773
try to make available a wheelchair accessible fleet just

8413
10:20:01,773 --> 10:20:06,443
on that particular point. Again, I think it is an area we

8414
10:20:06,443 --> 10:20:09,112
can reach higher. It is also another potential

8415
10:20:09,112 --> 10:20:14,250
role for a human to play in the near term.

8416
10:20:14,250 --> 10:20:20,250
where if you don't have the fully humanless technology to

8417
10:20:20,656 --> 10:20:22,993
secure a wheelchair and assist someone in and out of the

8418
10:20:22,993 --> 10:20:27,864
vehicle, all the other issues you might encounter, maybe that

8419
10:20:27,864 --> 10:20:31,501
is a former ride-share driver's role, something similar to what

8420
10:20:31,501 --> 10:20:33,704
they were doing as a gig employee.

8421
10:20:33,704 --> 10:20:36,273
so, I don't think it is something we should shy away

8422
10:20:36,273 --> 10:20:40,243
from. I do like thinking about the

8423
10:20:40,243 --> 10:20:44,443
performance-based metric. Very difficult for us to

8424
10:20:45,160 --> 10:20:49,752
quantify it in force. A fleet based metric.

8425
10:20:49,752 --> 10:20:53,890
you heard about loopholes that a vehicle could exist but not --

8426
10:20:53,890 --> 10:20:56,692
might not be doing much service. We don't measure it that way

8427
10:20:56,692 --> 10:21:01,300
anymore. We stepped up our game with a

8428
10:21:01,300 --> 10:21:03,567
taxi requirement to make sure she's actually -- it's actually

8429
10:21:03,567 --> 10:21:08,367
active. It is hard to measure the demand

8430
10:21:08,571 --> 10:21:14,244
and not punish companies for not doing a trip that was never

8431
10:21:14,244 --> 10:21:15,379
requested. We do think there are plenty of

8432
10:21:15,379 --> 10:21:20,784
people trying to get wheelchair accessible trips for higher and

8433
10:21:20,784 --> 10:21:25,655
so we are holding the only group of operators that are required

8434
10:21:25,655 --> 10:21:29,926
to do so, we are trying to hold them accountable and help them

8435
10:21:29,926 --> 10:21:32,729
through that. I think there are examples in

8436
10:21:32,729 --> 10:21:34,798
new york and other places where they are doing exactly what you

8437
10:21:34,798 --> 10:21:38,398
heard. They have a performance standard

8438
10:21:38,601 --> 10:21:44,700
and it is on par with the average for anyone else.

8439
10:21:44,700 --> 10:21:49,614
that is probably a better approach than trying to say you

8440
10:21:49,614 --> 10:21:52,216
need 20% of whatever number of vehicles is wheelchair

8441
10:21:52,216 --> 10:21:56,886
accessible. >> I want to add this is why

8442
10:21:56,886 --> 10:22:00,230
data recording is critical, both in the deployment and before

8443
10:22:00,230 --> 10:22:02,492
that when we were testing and permitting.

8444
10:22:02,492 --> 10:22:06,696
just to ensure that those wait times are not extremely long

8445
10:22:06,696 --> 10:22:13,296
like we've seen with tnc's. We have seen what doesn't work

8446
10:22:14,237 --> 10:22:17,374
which is outsourcing that demand to taxi fleets that have to

8447
10:22:17,374 --> 10:22:18,442
absorb that demand, which increases the wait times.

8448
10:22:18,442 --> 10:22:21,442
>> ok. Director, you mention something

8449
10:22:22,782 --> 10:22:27,219
in your testimony, I did not quite hear it or understand it.

8450
10:22:27,219 --> 10:22:30,322
I wrote it down. You talked about external

8451
10:22:30,322 --> 10:22:34,522
alerts. Can you maybe walk through what

8452
10:22:34,793 --> 10:22:37,196
you are describing? Were you saying the

8453
10:22:37,196 --> 10:22:40,399
recommendation is that autonomous vehicles need to have

8454
10:22:40,399 --> 10:22:43,736
some type of external alert for all rides?

8455
10:22:43,736 --> 10:22:46,736
I didn't quite follow. >> sure.

8456
10:22:47,273 --> 10:22:52,780
I think this comes from -- you see it already in electric

8457
10:22:52,780 --> 10:22:54,414
vehicles where they are operating below 25 -- 24 miles

8458
10:22:54,414 --> 10:22:59,214
per hour. They have an artificial sound so

8459
10:22:59,685 --> 10:23:03,456
people are aware. Even if they are not seeing the

8460
10:23:03,456 --> 10:23:05,891
vehicle, you know that vehicle is approaching.

8461
10:23:05,891 --> 10:23:09,695
whereas without that sound, they are virtually silent.

8462
10:23:09,695 --> 10:23:13,432
with all the competing noise, it can be sometimes hard to hear

8463
10:23:13,432 --> 10:23:15,834
where it is coming from. Things like that could be really

8464
10:23:15,834 --> 10:23:19,372
helpful. >> thank you, now I understand.

8465
10:23:19,372 --> 10:23:23,876
I was trying to follow and that makes total sense now.

8466
10:23:23,876 --> 10:23:30,117
and then, let's see -- let me go back to director rogers for a

8467
10:23:30,117 --> 10:23:33,117
moment. Beyond revenue generation, what

8468
10:23:35,654 --> 10:23:39,124
are the goals or incentives you think that fees or surcharges

8469
10:23:39,124 --> 10:23:44,663
should be trying to accomplish? We talked a lot about congestion

8470
10:23:44,663 --> 10:23:48,467
management, curbside management. What are the other goals other

8471
10:23:48,467 --> 10:23:52,538
than saying raise revenue? Using that revenue in a way to

8472
10:23:52,538 --> 10:23:57,309
achieve a policy goal. >> those are the two big ones.

8473
10:23:57,309 --> 10:24:01,614
usually, you think about the impact on the infrastructure,

8474
10:24:01,614 --> 10:24:03,382
the wear and tear that all those miles create.

8475
10:24:03,382 --> 10:24:10,756
I believe those were the ideas council had in mind when the law

8476
10:24:10,756 --> 10:24:14,760
was created. I just think the mechanism with

8477
10:24:14,760 --> 10:24:21,100
a flat 6% -- I guess it is not flat, but 6% trip per charge on

8478
10:24:21,100 --> 10:24:26,104
the gross receipts are not tied directly to those negative

8479
10:24:26,104 --> 10:24:29,241
externalities. If you are trying to reduce

8480
10:24:29,241 --> 10:24:33,441
environmental impact, emissions or traffic congestion, encourage

8481
10:24:36,648 --> 10:24:39,184
safety even, I think those are the big goals we've talked

8482
10:24:39,184 --> 10:24:42,855
about. To the extent that is the right

8483
10:24:42,855 --> 10:24:44,790
lever to do that, that is what we should be aiming for.

8484
10:24:44,790 --> 10:24:48,990
>> ok. >> I would also add things we

8485
10:24:49,261 --> 10:24:51,263
heard today that people are saying.

8486
10:24:51,263 --> 10:24:54,867
the late-night service of getting people home or when they

8487
10:24:54,867 --> 10:24:58,204
are coming off service work or third shifts.

8488
10:24:58,204 --> 10:25:02,404
also thinking about the linkages to transit.

8489
10:25:02,674 --> 10:25:07,120
heard some good ideas there but also just trying to imagine how

8490
10:25:07,120 --> 10:25:10,816
you might also use the fees as a way to incentivize certain

8491
10:25:10,816 --> 10:25:15,616
behaviors. In might be a lower fee in

8492
10:25:16,550 --> 10:25:19,358
order to encourage the availability of the system.

8493
10:25:19,358 --> 10:25:22,227
I think this is something that we somewhat learned in the car

8494
10:25:22,227 --> 10:25:24,363
share an example where we originally set the fees set

8495
10:25:24,363 --> 10:25:28,968
mostly to the cost of parking in a parking space for the entire

8496
10:25:28,968 --> 10:25:31,537
time they were using the curbside.

8497
10:25:31,537 --> 10:25:34,706
in the end, we realized those vehicles are also really

8498
10:25:34,706 --> 10:25:36,108
important part of a car free lifestyle.

8499
10:25:36,108 --> 10:25:41,847
it is car light. If it enables people to not own

8500
10:25:41,847 --> 10:25:43,381
their own personal vehicle ago from two cars to one car,

8501
10:25:43,381 --> 10:25:46,785
there's a benefit and the fees should not make it so difficult

8502
10:25:46,785 --> 10:25:50,789
for those vehicles to operate at a fleet size that makes it a

8503
10:25:50,789 --> 10:25:52,891
reasonable offering in the district.

8504
10:25:52,891 --> 10:25:54,859
I think there has been conversations around the

8505
10:25:54,859 --> 10:25:59,665
challenges of that and recognition the way that we

8506
10:25:59,665 --> 10:26:01,400
structure our fees also needs to reflect what the value of the

8507
10:26:01,400 --> 10:26:04,400
service that's being provided. >> ok.

8508
10:26:05,204 --> 10:26:09,942
director rogers, we heard the criticism of the initial fleet

8509
10:26:09,942 --> 10:26:13,542
capa at 200 in the proposed legislation.

8510
10:26:15,347 --> 10:26:21,553
for context, a sense of scope, what are the fleet sizes of our

8511
10:26:21,553 --> 10:26:28,153
major taxis in d.c. Or write your company's -- rideshare

8512
10:26:28,360 --> 10:26:31,960
companies? >> taxis probably don't give --

8513
10:26:34,566 --> 10:26:39,372
they are on the smaller side. We have around 1400 probably

8514
10:26:39,372 --> 10:26:42,941
registered taxis in the district that are active.

8515
10:26:42,941 --> 10:26:47,713
how often they drive or out on the street is probably a smaller

8516
10:26:47,713 --> 10:26:51,917
number daily. We don't have as precise data

8517
10:26:51,917 --> 10:26:56,922
from the ubers or lyfts of the world but it is significantly

8518
10:26:56,922 --> 10:27:00,626
higher than that. I think in our hearing last

8519
10:27:00,626 --> 10:27:04,463
month, I heard in the tens of thousands is sort of a daily

8520
10:27:04,463 --> 10:27:06,931
ballpark. >> we don't actually know that.

8521
10:27:06,931 --> 10:27:09,931
>> right. For wheelchair accessible trips,

8522
10:27:13,672 --> 10:27:15,574
they have to provide more vehicle information.

8523
10:27:15,574 --> 10:27:20,412
today, I cannot go through a list of these tag numbers are

8524
10:27:20,412 --> 10:27:26,284
all the ubers I know are operating, same for lyft.

8525
10:27:26,284 --> 10:27:29,823
I cannot tell -- which I will be double counting if someone

8526
10:27:29,823 --> 10:27:33,592
drives for both services. >> it is a really big problem.

8527
10:27:33,592 --> 10:27:37,564
the lack of data here is why I have some folks telling me there

8528
10:27:37,564 --> 10:27:44,164
are tens of thousands of goobers and -- ubers and lyfts

8529
10:27:45,704 --> 10:27:49,308
operating on the street today, or they could be double counting

8530
10:27:49,308 --> 10:27:50,976
and that's because we don't have the reporting requirements the

8531
10:27:50,976 --> 10:27:54,446
right way. >> it surely fluctuates but we

8532
10:27:54,446 --> 10:27:58,460
don't have access to that. >> ok.

8533
10:27:58,517 --> 10:28:04,517
some of the witnesses have also talked about does allowing

8534
10:28:04,990 --> 10:28:08,560
autonomous vehicles put more cars on the road overall?

8535
10:28:08,560 --> 10:28:14,533
we also heard witnesses who said at full deployment, san

8536
10:28:14,533 --> 10:28:18,470
francisco for example -- I think we heard witnesses say

8537
10:28:18,470 --> 10:28:21,730
essentially that has meant for everyone vehicle, autonomous

8538
10:28:21,730 --> 10:28:25,877
vehicle that is out, that is four drivers being impacted and

8539
10:28:25,877 --> 10:28:29,320
not making trips. Is that consistent with what

8540
10:28:29,320 --> 10:28:32,902
we've seen? Does that number makes sense or

8541
10:28:32,902 --> 10:28:36,106
line up at all with what you've seen as part of your review or

8542
10:28:36,106 --> 10:28:38,420
you have to wait until the end of the summer to find out?

8543
10:28:38,420 --> 10:28:42,312
>> we have to wait to see a bit more.

8544
10:28:42,312 --> 10:28:45,516
the review of that is largely already in the research report.

8545
10:28:45,516 --> 10:28:48,452
this is coming off of what we've heard from elsewhere but we are

8546
10:28:48,452 --> 10:28:51,521
watching the updated stats and data and research coming out of

8547
10:28:51,521 --> 10:28:54,390
california. This will essentially be coming

8548
10:28:54,390 --> 10:28:58,128
out of california. That is the only place getting

8549
10:28:58,128 --> 10:29:01,665
sufficient information to try to get a handle on this.

8550
10:29:01,665 --> 10:29:06,870
texas, we now know how many vehicles are deployed statewide

8551
10:29:06,870 --> 10:29:10,700
across multiple markets for any one company but it is very hard

8552
10:29:10,700 --> 10:29:13,510
without actual data reporting requirements to get anything.

8553
10:29:13,510 --> 10:29:16,613
we are really lacking data points on this one, even from

8554
10:29:16,613 --> 10:29:17,347
other jurisdictions that have it.

8555
10:29:17,347 --> 10:29:22,747
>> if for every autonomous vehicle, four drivers were no

8556
10:29:26,490 --> 10:29:30,900
longer driving. From a workforce perspective,

8557
10:29:30,461 --> 10:29:34,310
that would be deeply significant obviously and very disruptive

8558
10:29:34,310 --> 10:29:38,231
from a work point -- workforce standpoint.

8559
10:29:39,136 --> 10:29:40,637
if one autonomous vehicle means for cars removed from the

8560
10:29:40,637 --> 10:29:44,974
roadway, thenw autonomous vehicles are not actually adding

8561
10:29:44,974 --> 10:29:50,247
more cars to the roadway. We are in the position of trying

8562
10:29:50,247 --> 10:29:53,718
to think through what the varied and multifaceted policy goals we

8563
10:29:53,718 --> 10:29:57,253
are trying to achieve. That number jumped out to meet

8564
10:29:57,253 --> 10:29:59,823
as we are also concerned about adding to congestion.

8565
10:29:59,823 --> 10:30:04,796
>> yeah, I think trying to get a handle on what's going to adjust

8566
10:30:04,796 --> 10:30:10,796
and also the nature of the behavior that suggested, how

8567
10:30:13,269 --> 10:30:15,406
much are we seeing people who do this less than 20 hours a week

8568
10:30:15,406 --> 10:30:20,477
as a side activity versus people who do it more fully as their

8569
10:30:20,477 --> 10:30:24,548
day in and day out employment. We think more people do it on

8570
10:30:24,548 --> 10:30:30,822
the side, but how and when that behavior changes will affect

8571
10:30:30,822 --> 10:30:33,691
whether it actually impacts congestion.

8572
10:30:33,691 --> 10:30:38,280
I think in the discussions of the hybrid model, we've heard

8573
10:30:38,280 --> 10:30:40,631
that the benefit to having both autonomous and human driven

8574
10:30:40,631 --> 10:30:44,235
vehicles is that human driven vehicles can help fill the surge

8575
10:30:44,235 --> 10:30:47,905
demand in a way that is hard to scale your autonomous fleet.

8576
10:30:47,905 --> 10:30:53,277
this is the premise of what we have heard from uber and lyft.

8577
10:30:53,277 --> 10:30:55,179
that raises questions about how many trips are you actually

8578
10:30:55,179 --> 10:30:57,848
taking off during the peak period if that is when that

8579
10:30:57,848 --> 10:31:02,452
event is occurring? Because then we are just scaling

8580
10:31:02,452 --> 10:31:06,390
up to meet demand. But we didn't necessarily change

8581
10:31:06,390 --> 10:31:10,462
the number and that is when the workforce impacts become more

8582
10:31:10,462 --> 10:31:12,462
pronounced. >> ok.

8583
10:31:12,529 --> 10:31:18,802
>> I think at the root of all this is the pricing that these

8584
10:31:18,802 --> 10:31:22,605
operators choose to use. It may be obvious to me but the

8585
10:31:22,605 --> 10:31:24,508
big difference between the public vehicles for hire, the

8586
10:31:24,508 --> 10:31:29,880
fare is regulated. The taxis are not charging you

8587
10:31:29,880 --> 10:31:32,949
with if the meter is being used. That is a big change with uber

8588
10:31:32,949 --> 10:31:38,821
and lyft coming in a decade ago. Their prices were very low at

8589
10:31:38,821 --> 10:31:42,960
the beginning, so all these different side effects of that

8590
10:31:42,960 --> 10:31:44,828
-- like if that meant more trips where they are stealing trips

8591
10:31:44,828 --> 10:31:47,831
from transit. >> they are still a lot lower

8592
10:31:47,831 --> 10:31:49,900
than a taxi fare today, right? Kidding.

8593
10:31:49,900 --> 10:31:52,900
>> no, sir. Quite the opposite.

8594
10:31:53,236 --> 10:31:58,636
>> amazing how that happened. >> when it's busy, the surge

8595
10:32:00,243 --> 10:32:03,647
pricing, but taxis are not. We heard companies say they are

8596
10:32:03,647 --> 10:32:07,384
aiming for a certain price per mile.

8597
10:32:07,384 --> 10:32:12,222
I think if their goal is to be the cheapest transportation

8598
10:32:12,222 --> 10:32:14,791
option, they could do that if they want.

8599
10:32:14,791 --> 10:32:20,263
or they could ask -- they are asking don't put these fees, and

8600
10:32:20,263 --> 10:32:22,299
they will be passed along to the customer.

8601
10:32:22,299 --> 10:32:25,268
do you want to be a public vehicle for hire?

8602
10:32:25,268 --> 10:32:27,404
do you want to have your fair regulated?

8603
10:32:27,404 --> 10:32:32,242
that has a massive impact on employment upper groups --

8604
10:32:32,242 --> 10:32:34,440
opportunities, how many trips and how many miles.

8605
10:32:34,440 --> 10:32:38,348
>> you can call me skeptical if you want.

8606
10:32:38,348 --> 10:32:44,870
I just have a hard time believing a company-owned by a

8607
10:32:44,870 --> 10:32:47,423
trillionaire is really focused on the most affordable ride for

8608
10:32:47,423 --> 10:32:50,760
that working family in ward 8. There's a lot of money to be

8609
10:32:50,760 --> 10:32:53,964
made here. That is what these companies are

8610
10:32:53,964 --> 10:32:57,967
thinking about. Our goal is not to think through

8611
10:32:57,967 --> 10:33:01,238
solutions that benefit them. It is to think through what of

8612
10:33:01,238 --> 10:33:03,640
the policy goals we are trying to achieve, what connects our

8613
10:33:03,640 --> 10:33:08,211
residents and puts our city in the most advantageous and

8614
10:33:08,211 --> 10:33:10,247
possible, not chasing after something like that.

8615
10:33:10,247 --> 10:33:13,316
that is part of what we try to do throughout the day.

8616
10:33:13,316 --> 10:33:16,787
a couple more quick questions. It is a little after 8:00 so I

8617
10:33:16,787 --> 10:33:24,587
want to wrap this up, too. I lost my train of thought now.

8618
10:33:25,280 --> 10:33:30,734
in terms of the how prescriptive versus regulation, from a safety

8619
10:33:30,734 --> 10:33:36,134
perspective, did ddot have any, or anyone else, specifically

8620
10:33:38,742 --> 10:33:42,412
stating you cannot go above the speed limit?

8621
10:33:42,412 --> 10:33:48,412
specifically stating you cannot block a bike lane outside of

8622
10:33:49,286 --> 10:33:51,880
some exigent circumstances, like maybe you have to drop someone

8623
10:33:51,880 --> 10:33:54,357
off who has a mobility challenge, so there's a

8624
10:33:54,357 --> 10:33:57,226
temporary element. But making sure it is not

8625
10:33:57,226 --> 10:34:00,897
routine and will be very rare when it takes place.

8626
10:34:00,897 --> 10:34:03,767
should we put that into legislation so that it is very

8627
10:34:03,767 --> 10:34:08,104
clear and not a maybe we do our best to follow the law?

8628
10:34:08,104 --> 10:34:14,440
>> somebody on the policy team could correct me as I try to

8629
10:34:14,440 --> 10:34:16,146
remember what's actually in the law.

8630
10:34:16,146 --> 10:34:20,550
I know in the testing side, definitely have in the

8631
10:34:20,550 --> 10:34:24,488
regulations as proposed that you must follow the traffic laws.

8632
10:34:24,488 --> 10:34:26,524
I strongly suspect we picked that up straight from the

8633
10:34:26,524 --> 10:34:30,724
legislation. That is just mirroring over from

8634
10:34:30,794 --> 10:34:32,863
the code. The expectation would be set

8635
10:34:32,863 --> 10:34:35,867
there. I think the question is maybe

8636
10:34:35,867 --> 10:34:41,210
what gets put into -- how does that impact your ability to

8637
10:34:41,210 --> 10:34:46,826
continue to hold your permit? Does a pattern of noncompliance

8638
10:34:46,826 --> 10:34:51,260
lead to revocation? >> if our automated cameras

8639
10:34:53,633 --> 10:35:00,233
aren't going to capture speeding until you are over 10 miles per

8640
10:35:00,639 --> 10:35:04,111
hour, and if our tesla folks said, yeah, they can go over the

8641
10:35:04,111 --> 10:35:08,848
speed limit, just a with the flow of traffic, they still went

8642
10:35:08,848 --> 10:35:12,519
over the speed limit. But our tools will necessarily

8643
10:35:12,519 --> 10:35:16,456
capture that. Back to our issues around

8644
10:35:16,456 --> 10:35:19,526
reporting, very important that we have that system so you have

8645
10:35:19,526 --> 10:35:22,610
that type of reporting and enforcement.

8646
10:35:22,610 --> 10:35:25,650
otherwise, there are ways you can game the system to go above

8647
10:35:25,650 --> 10:35:28,401
the speed limit. I don't think if safety is the

8648
10:35:28,401 --> 10:35:30,803
name of the game, we are not supposed to allow that to

8649
10:35:30,803 --> 10:35:32,803
happen. Ok.

8650
10:35:36,109 --> 10:35:40,790
I think we have exhausted almost every question we can or I'm

8651
10:35:40,790 --> 10:35:43,516
exhausted at this point. And it think I missed that you

8652
10:35:43,516 --> 10:35:44,551
want to highlight before we wrap up?

8653
10:35:44,551 --> 10:35:48,922
>> I just want to stress the data point.

8654
10:35:48,922 --> 10:35:54,861
you cannot do a lot of things if we don't get good data.

8655
10:35:54,861 --> 10:35:57,830
otherwise, we are kind of guessing.

8656
10:35:57,830 --> 10:35:59,832
we need them to give us good data so we can keep them honest.

8657
10:35:59,832 --> 10:36:06,432
>> you have effectively talked about that is one of our key

8658
10:36:06,439 --> 10:36:10,443
lessons learned as well. If we are not learning some of

8659
10:36:10,443 --> 10:36:13,245
those lessons, that is us not figuring out how to do better

8660
10:36:13,245 --> 10:36:18,450
each time. >> just that we would be very

8661
10:36:18,518 --> 10:36:20,787
happy to continue the conversation and I encourage you

8662
10:36:20,787 --> 10:36:26,126
to take a look at our observation zone which we are

8663
10:36:26,126 --> 10:36:28,394
getting ready to kick off figuring out which side of the

8664
10:36:28,394 --> 10:36:31,998
tech will do with that. We are excited about

8665
10:36:31,998 --> 10:36:35,135
opportunities for public engagement and mobility

8666
10:36:35,135 --> 10:36:37,137
innovation district as part of that.

8667
10:36:37,137 --> 10:36:41,107
I think that will address some of the items we heard today.

8668
10:36:41,107 --> 10:36:43,878
with people asking for input and would welcome your engagement

8669
10:36:43,878 --> 10:36:49,349
since it covers ward six. >> I will echo the need for

8670
10:36:49,349 --> 10:36:53,860
data. I already talked about data for

8671
10:36:53,860 --> 10:36:58,223
testing and for reporting on wait times and trip completions.

8672
10:36:58,223 --> 10:37:02,696
I think also, working with -- like I mentioned, with the

8673
10:37:02,696 --> 10:37:09,296
companies in all phases on the data around her management and

8674
10:37:09,368 --> 10:37:12,305
understanding where those needs take place.

8675
10:37:12,305 --> 10:37:14,440
that benefits not only the autonomous vehicles, but also

8676
10:37:14,440 --> 10:37:19,240
tnc's and para transit. Those services need accessible

8677
10:37:20,380 --> 10:37:21,381
places the pickup up and drop off as well.

8678
10:37:21,381 --> 10:37:25,651
>> thank you. >> might as well add my closing

8679
10:37:25,651 --> 10:37:29,851
comments. I just think like you said,

8680
10:37:30,522 --> 10:37:33,993
aiming for a higher bar than we have today and requiring it, not

8681
10:37:33,993 --> 10:37:36,795
just hearing promises about that.

8682
10:37:36,795 --> 10:37:42,195
accessibility and equity. Then, I think allowing dfhv to

8683
10:37:44,203 --> 10:37:47,600
streamline what we can by having the functions we do in

8684
10:37:47,600 --> 10:37:52,406
regulating for hire service remained within her agency and

8685
10:37:52,545 --> 10:37:58,551
lastly, I think it is going to be a challenge to try to limit

8686
10:37:58,551 --> 10:38:01,154
the adverse impact to the current ride-share drivers

8687
10:38:01,154 --> 10:38:02,889
today. I think it's a little bit of

8688
10:38:02,889 --> 10:38:06,659
deja vu. We saw what happened to taxi

8689
10:38:06,659 --> 10:38:11,297
drivers over a decade ago. The company is coming --

8690
10:38:11,297 --> 10:38:12,699
companies coming and did not have them or their interests at

8691
10:38:12,699 --> 10:38:16,301
heart. So, we want to avoid that as

8692
10:38:16,301 --> 10:38:19,872
much as possible. If there is around two.

8693
10:38:19,872 --> 10:38:22,272
>> absolutely. I appreciate it.

8694
10:38:24,744 --> 10:38:27,313
we are closing in on our number 11 so I think we will wrap it

8695
10:38:27,313 --> 10:38:30,313
up. This will conclude the

8696
10:38:32,118 --> 10:38:35,718
committee's public hearing on bill 26-684.

8697
10:38:38,857 --> 10:38:42,861
I want to thank all of our public witnesses today who had

8698
10:38:42,861 --> 10:38:46,667
really great comments, questions and helped us flesh out what the

8699
10:38:46,667 --> 10:38:49,268
committee will be doing. Appreciate all of your testimony

8700
10:38:49,268 --> 10:38:53,106
as well. Got a note from her government

8701
10:38:53,106 --> 10:38:57,410
partners, so I appreciate that. I know you have family and

8702
10:38:57,410 --> 10:39:00,113
friends as well so thank you very much for being here.

8703
10:39:00,113 --> 10:39:04,830
as a reminder, the record for today's roundtable will close on

8704
10:39:04,830 --> 10:39:08,283
monday, july 27, 2026. You can submit written testimony

8705
10:39:09,689 --> 10:39:13,289
to the council's system until then.

8706
10:39:14,227 --> 10:39:15,828
no further business before the committee.

8707
10:39:15,828 --> 10:39:22,568
the time is now 8:09 p.m. And this public hearing is now

8708
10:39:22,568 --> 10:39:24,968
adjourned. Thank you, everyone.