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At this time, we'll call the August 17,
2026 meeting of the East Enfield

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Township Zoning Board to order. Members
of the board who are present this

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evening are Mr. Loose, Mr. Kalis, and
myself, Mark Hansen, chairman of the

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board. Also, for the record, we have Mr.
commands our zoning officer to the

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township and our legal counsel attorney
Jason Hes as well. We also have a court

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reporter with us. Scheduled for this
evening are two new cases and any old

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business that may become may come before
us this evening. The board will hear

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each case in an informal manner without
strict compliance with the rules and

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procedure used in a court trial. We ask
each applicant and any individual

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interested in a case to step in front of
our table and explain the circumstances

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involved in their application.
Applicants may present their case

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themselves through their attorneys or
any other representatives.

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My fellow board members and I, as well
as our solicitor, may ask the applicant

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questions from time to time during the
applicant's presentation or at its

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conclusion.
All persons having interest in the

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application will be given the
opportunity to ask questions of the

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applicant, offer evidence of their own,
and inform the board of their position

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on the matter. In the interest of prompt
and orderly disposition of each case,

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however, we ask that interested people
refrain from speaking until the

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applicant's presentation has been
completed

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and the board has had an opportunity to
question the applicant. At the beginning

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of each case, people are interested in
the case should decide whether they

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desire to be a party to it. By given the
status of a party, that person will be

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entitled to receive notice of the
decision in the case and be entitled to

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participate in any subsequent appeal or
rehearing.

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Individuals who are not given party
status may nevertheless ask questions or

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present evidence but will not receive
notice of the decision or will not

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automatically be entitled to participate
in any appeal or subsequent reharing.

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If you desire to be a party, we ask that
you sign an entry of appearance form at

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the appropriate time. Although each
party will see receive a written copy of

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the decision, the mechanics to type in
the signed decision will take

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approximately four weeks. We ask that
each person who ask a question or makes

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a statement first state his or her name
and address for a court reporter.

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Lastly, in the interest of time, I will
minister the oath or affirmation to all

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applicants and to everyone and anyone
who anticipates making any statement

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with respect to any of the hearings this
evening. At this time, will you all

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please rise?

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Under penalties of perjury, you swear or
affirm the testimony you're about to

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give will be the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth. If so, please

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say I do.
Please remain standing. We'll salute the

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flag.
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the

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United States of America and to the
republic for which it stands, one nation

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under God, indivisible, with liberty and
justice for all.

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Again,

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just to let everybody know, this meeting
is also in Zoom. So, if you wish to make

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a statement or offer testimony, please
use one of the microphones so that you

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can be heard on Zoom, as well as to make
sure our court reporter can hear you,

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Jeremy. Have the cases this evening been
posted and advertised in accordance with

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the Sunshine Law and the ordinance?
>> They have.

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Um, gentlemen, because we we have a
quorum. However, because Mr. Loose will

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abstain from voting for the minutes
because he was not here, we'll skip

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approving the minutes this month. We'll
do it next month.

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Jeremy, any old business?
>> No.

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» Jeremy, will you call the first new
case?

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Case number 25000,
Eric Wardrop and Tasha Plunkett, 135

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Wood Road, seeking a modification of
conditions, requesting a variance to

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allow an accessory farm worker apartment
and the timing requirements to act on

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the zoning hears decision.
>> Mr. Yod, are you the representative?

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» If you would please.

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Uh good evening members of the board.
Dwight Yoder here on behalf of the

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applicant. Um attorney Gibble Craven
Hess. Uh with me is Eric Wardrop. He uh

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is one of the uh equitable owners of the
property that's at issue. The board's

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familiar with this application because
part of the relief we're requesting is

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to essentially reinstate a decision that
expired allowing a farm dwelling on the

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property located at 237 Root Road. Uh it
involves about 37 12 acres of land that

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they intend to use for um their horse
operation, a riding ring, and then they

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will also have a house that they live
on. Um,

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» can I interrupt you for one second?
>> Absolutely.

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» I'm sorry. Is there anyone that wishes
to be a party to this case?

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» All right. I'm sorry. Go ahead.
>> Okay. That's all right. Um, so the first

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request that we have is to essentially
grant uh a modification of a prior

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condition that was imposed when the
property was subdivided um to allow a

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farm dwelling on the property. Uh the
reason that expired was there was a

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little bit of an unexpected twist. When
you're going up Root Road, uh the corner

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of this property on the south side,
there is a little um auto shop there and

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they had been using part of this
property for a long time to park their

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cars. Long story short, there was a need
to do a a lot line adjustment to clean

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to clean it up and so that has made its
way through. I think the supervisors are

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going to be reviewing that at their next
meeting. What that meant though was the

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property couldn't be conveyed and we
couldn't get through the land

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development on this for a little bit
longer than we anticipated. So, that's

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the reason for that delay. Uh, which is
why we're back. Um the additional

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request deals with a farm worker
apartment. Eric will testify that uh due

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to the nature of this horse operation
uh the level of care that's required for

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horses, they really need somebody living
on site to care for the animals. And um

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this would not be anything but for farm
workers and it would be limited to that.

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Um, so we're asking for a a variance to
allow for an accessory use that would

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involve a farm workers apartment.
Frankly, some townships recognize um an

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accessory use for farm workers, but the
zoning ordinance, as it's written for

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East Hempfield, doesn't have that. So,
that's the second request. And then the

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final request is to avoid coming back
maybe a third time, extend the time for

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that land development for an additional
year to give them adequate time to get

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through the process. So Eric will be my
only witness. We'll run through some

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questions and then we're happy to answer
any questions the the board may have.

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» Okay. Um the lot
add-on I believe is being addressed this

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Wednesday night. Is that correct?
>> That's correct.

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» Okay.
>> Yep.

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Good.
>> All right. Uh, Eric, if you just want to

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speak there. Um, can you just state your
name for the record?

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» Eric Wardrop. Last name is spelled W A R
D R O P.

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» And are you and your wife the acriable
owner of the property that's the subject

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of this application?
>> Yes.

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» And you have it under agreement from the
criers. Correct.

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» Correct. Um, and we don't have to go
through that, but um, was the uh,

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consent for this application included as
part of the application?

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» Yes.
>> Okay. If you look at what's up on the

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uh, screen here, and it was exhibit one
to our application, is that just an

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aerial showing the property that uh, you
have under agreement?

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» Correct.
>> And is it approximately 37 12 acres?

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Once the lot add-on is complete, it'll
be roughly 37 and a half.

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» Okay. And is the property used now
entirely for growing and harvesting

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crops?
>> Uh, it is.

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» It was subdivided in 1996. Is that
correct?

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» Yes.
>> And this property was known as lot four.

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And was there a condition on the
subdivision plan that basically said no

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dwelling could be constructed on this
lot?

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» Correct. Uh, and then back in 2023, as
you heard in my opening, did you go and

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seek approval from the zoning hearing
board to modify that condition through a

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variance to allow a farm dwelling to be
constructed?

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» Yes.
>> And will that facilitate your ability to

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um use this for a riding ring and your
horse operation?

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» Yes. Um, and as you heard in my opening,
that prior zoning approval expired

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because of this little glitch related to
dealing with this slot add-on. Correct.

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» Yes.
>> Okay. Um, is it your understanding that

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your engineer has the land development
plans for your property essentially

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ready to go once the lot add-on is
approved?

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» Yes.
>> Okay. So, let me ask you some questions

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about how you want to use the property.
Can you just describe for the board what

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your intentions are in terms of um the
horse operation?

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» Yeah. So, this would consist of a uh 16
stall horse barn um with a an indoor

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riding arena and an equipment um bar or
equipment garage uh with the intention

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of putting uh the apartment above the
garage building.

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» And can you provide to the board a
little bit of you and your wife's

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experience and background in this type
of horse operation?

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» Excuse me.
>> Yes. Um, can you put the plan up there

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for
>> Oh, yeah. Exhibit six.

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» And please show us on the overall plan
where this I wasn't sure where it was

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going. I thought it was going above the
horse barn, but

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» that one so we can Yeah. Yeah. There you
go.

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» Yep. That's my one.
>> There you go.

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» You can blow that up a little bit.

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See how to do this
>> using the pointer. Can you show us where

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the dwelling?
>> This is the This is the barn.

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» Okay.
>> Um there's like an open covered walkway

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right here that goes into the uh indoor
arena. This is storage on the end of the

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arena. And then this is the equipment
garage with manure storage here. So, the

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intention is to have the apartment uh
above this structure here.

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» Okay.
>> And that just laid out better than than

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putting it putting it in the barn
itself.

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» Eric, can you describe the type of
horses that will be on the property and

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the type of care that are required for
them?

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» Yeah, my my wife has been in the horse
business for as a professional for

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almost 15 years. She's been riding
horses since she's four years old. She's

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44 years old now. Um, this is a what you
would call a show barn. So, these are

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what what in the in the world of hunter
jumper horses. These horses are um very

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expensive horses that require uh almost
I mean everyday care. So that's

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obviously the purpose of of having a
person on on the property at all times

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um you know even throughout the night
just in case a lot of horses have health

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issues that need to be taken care of and
monitored um at kind of all hours. So

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it's it's pretty imperative for the
level of care um that my my wife's uh

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business operates under to have someone
on on site at all at all times. You and

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your wife would be living in a farm
dwelling as well, but you're not always

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available. Correct.
>> No, my wife, as part of her business,

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she does travel a lot um and does a lot
of away horse shows um in the winter.

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She moves a lot of the horses down
south. We also have a facility not as

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large as this one in Okala, Florida that
we we operate during the winter months.

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Um so she's back and forth. So, it's
important that we have a um we we call

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it a barn essentially a barn manager
that oversees um the care care of the

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horses on a daily basis.
>> Do you currently have a barn manager

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that would be living on this dwelling if
it's approved?

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» We do.
>> And who is that?

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» Um her name is Katie Dukeman. Uh she's
worked for my wife now probably six or

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seven years.
>> Okay. Um, and

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would this accessory farm uh worker
apartment be limited to people living

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there that are working on the farm?
>> Yes. I have no intention of using it as

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a a rental. This is purely for and it's
it's something that we would provide the

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barn manager as part of their
compensation would they would receive

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essentially free housing. Um, and just
so the record's clear, you wouldn't use

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it for a short-term rental. Correct.
>> Correct.

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» You wouldn't use it for people that are
coming to visit with their horses or

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ride to live there. It would only be for
workers. Uh, in this case, your barn

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manager,
>> correct?

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» Okay. Um, and
in your opinion, based on the nature of

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this horse operation,
would it create a hardship if you

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weren't able to accommodate a farm
manager on the property?

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» It it would make it very difficult. Yes.
Um, and due to the nature of the care

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that the horses require,
is having somebody there pretty much

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around the clock essential to be sure
that they can be cared for in a timely

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manner?
>> Yes.

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» If we could go to the last exhibit, I
think exhibit seven of the apartment

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plan, just to give the board a sense of
what the apartment might look like. Uh

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there we go. Yeah. Um I know you're
still working on a land development plan

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and you may not have finalized your
building plans, but as part of the

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application, did you provide me with a a
kind of preliminary floor plan of what

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the apartment might look like?
>> Yes.

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» Um and this would be above the You
referred to it as the storage garage.

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» Yes. Okay. Um, and would this provide uh
immediate access based on its location

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to the horses if there was if there was
a need?

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» Yeah, it's directly across the driveway.
>> Okay.

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» And I think just referencing this arena
wall up here. This is a plan that came

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from an iteration that we decided to
move it out of the barn and the indoor.

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So this is obviously still referencing
that, but this would be the same layout

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that we would intend to capture. It's
just, you know, this is roughly, I

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think, 750 square feet.
And just to be clear, um, if for some

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reason in the future the horse operation
is long no longer there, would you agree

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that this would still be reserved just
for farm workers if there was some other

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egg use? But uh if in fact there was no
need for a farm worker, the apartment

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really couldn't be used for anything
else.

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» Yes.
>> Okay. Um

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00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:31,440
let me just go through a few of the
requirements for variance. Would you

211
00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:36,799
agree um that if the board approves this
farm worker apartment as an accessory

212
00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:39,600
use that it would allow for the
reasonable use of the property as a

213
00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:44,799
riding stable?
>> Yes.

214
00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:50,880
» And would you agree that allowing a farm
manager to have an apartment on the

215
00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:55,280
property would not uh adversely impact
adjoining property owners?

216
00:17:53,120 --> 00:17:59,440
» I would agree. Uh, and would you agree
it wouldn't alter the character of the a

217
00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:04,480
use of the property?
>> I would agree.

218
00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:09,200
» And um having one apartment, would you
agree that's the minimum relief

219
00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:12,160
necessary to allow somebody to be there
um on a full-time basis?

220
00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:18,000
» Yes.
>> U and just to um to reiterate again, it

221
00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:20,640
would not be rented to any third parties
or as a short-term rental.

222
00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:25,440
» It would not.
>> Okay. And then the the final questions

223
00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:29,760
just deal with the extension of time.
Again, in my intro, I explained that

224
00:18:27,679 --> 00:18:34,640
there was a delay because of the lot
add-on. You're requesting for an

225
00:18:31,919 --> 00:18:37,919
additional year to for a total of two
years to submit the land development

226
00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:41,840
plans. Correct.
>> Correct. I don't think I'll need it, but

227
00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:45,200
would rather not come back here a third
time.

228
00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:48,640
» Uh and again, you anticipate that you
should be able to get those submitted

229
00:18:46,559 --> 00:18:52,480
this fall as soon as the other plan is
approved.

230
00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:55,360
» Correct. Um, all right. Those are all
the questions that I have for Eric. We'd

231
00:18:54,080 --> 00:19:00,960
welcome any questions from board
members.

232
00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:09,679
» Um, I have a question. Uh, how many
workers total will be required for the

233
00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:15,760
16 horses that you have there? um total
is probably somewhere in the seven to

234
00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:21,679
eight range, but they there's there's a
daytime kind of barn manager that would

235
00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:24,799
be able to come during the day and then
leave. And then you'd have your kind of

236
00:19:23,039 --> 00:19:29,200
your overall manager, which is the
intended for this apartment. And then

237
00:19:26,559 --> 00:19:35,280
you're going to have various different
folks that um my wife hires a lot of uh

238
00:19:32,559 --> 00:19:41,919
girls that are in the horse world. Um,
so they they they range between, I would

239
00:19:38,799 --> 00:19:46,720
say, at any given time, seven to nine
different employees. Two employees

240
00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:50,960
usually work morning shift. Two
employees work night shift.

241
00:19:48,799 --> 00:19:54,559
» Eric, let me just follow up on that. The
floor plan shows three beds, three

242
00:19:52,880 --> 00:20:00,799
bedrooms. And I think maybe the question
was, [clears throat] you talked about

243
00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:05,679
one uh farm manager. Would there
potentially be two other farm workers

244
00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:09,280
that would stay or is is that for the
farm workers family or how do you

245
00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:14,240
envision the three bedrooms?
>> I think it could be for the farm

246
00:20:11,039 --> 00:20:18,640
manager's family. Um, you know, the
current farm manager that we have does

247
00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:25,280
not have any children. Um, I think
there's also a lot of situations that

248
00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:30,400
require additional people to potentially
be there um throughout the day. you

249
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:36,320
know, overnight when we had snow last
year, we had to put people up on air

250
00:20:33,039 --> 00:20:41,120
mattresses in in the barn um because
there was we were concerned that they

251
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:46,240
couldn't get there. Um I mean the the
purpose of the apartment is the and the

252
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:52,960
layout's not finalized yet. This is just
an you know an option for us. Um but the

253
00:20:50,559 --> 00:20:58,720
the purpose is for for the barn manager
specific. Um could could another worker

254
00:20:56,320 --> 00:21:04,640
stay there potentially, you know, on
occasion? Sure. But it's the the

255
00:21:01,360 --> 00:21:11,480
intention is not to um use this for any
other uh reason other than than the B

256
00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:11,480
manager and the care of the horses.

257
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:18,240
» That's when when you say you go back and
forth to Florida, does the bar manager

258
00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,480
go with you?
>> No, she stays.

259
00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:26,720
» She's permanently there.
>> She stays. We take another employee down

260
00:21:23,039 --> 00:21:31,120
for and and our property in Ocala has an
apartment um in the barn so that's where

261
00:21:29,039 --> 00:21:34,960
she stays when she comes down. So
similar setup just a little bit smaller

262
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:37,960
facility.
>> Okay.

263
00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:43,559
» Couple questions for you. Um

264
00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:52,559
you're asking for a variance of section
270 um-5.2

265
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:56,240
to FFF.
What I'm curious of, are you asking for

266
00:21:54,480 --> 00:22:01,080
a variance to the whole section or a
specific part of that?

267
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:11,400
» Give me one second. 270-
>> 5.2

268
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,400
FF

269
00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:32,400
5.2 F. Oh, triple F. Not
>> triple F.

270
00:22:30,799 --> 00:22:34,400
» Keep flipping it way back.
>> What's that?

271
00:22:33,039 --> 00:22:40,600
» It's way back there in the ordinance.
>> I see that. Okay.

272
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:40,600
To the triple Fs.

273
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,679
So this is to the first request for the
single family dwelling,

274
00:22:49,039 --> 00:22:52,679
» right?
>> Um

275
00:22:54,480 --> 00:23:01,280
I think this is related to and this goes
back to your prior decision where you

276
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:06,880
cited this section. So, the request is
for a modification of the prior

277
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:12,159
condition, but it does say that I think
it's to subsection

278
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:16,360
um
C. Uh

279
00:23:16,799 --> 00:23:25,919
well, actually, they would be they would
have a right because it's more than 20

280
00:23:22,159 --> 00:23:30,400
acres to have a single family dwelling
on the property. So

281
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:33,919
technically I think it's it's a
modification of the prior condition.

282
00:23:33,120 --> 00:23:39,679
» Okay.
>> Um but uh I think we just added this

283
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:44,799
section because of that's how the prior
decision was written. I don't have

284
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:51,520
» I think that and I think that this was I
mean that this was more or less the same

285
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:59,679
and um in the previous ordinance but I
think that um the the your prior

286
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:05,120
subdivision was in 1996 and this
ordinance refers to every 20 acres or a

287
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:08,640
fraction of there of contiguous land and
single and separate ownership as of the

288
00:24:07,039 --> 00:24:13,919
effective date of the zoning ordinance
which was 1994. for. So I think that

289
00:24:11,120 --> 00:24:19,039
when you got the subdivision in 1996
that exhausted your subdivision rights

290
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:24,320
under this section in in addition to the
and uh so in addition to the condition

291
00:24:21,679 --> 00:24:28,640
that was placed on there, you still do
need a variance from this section

292
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:31,039
because of the subdivision rights being
exhausted.

293
00:24:29,120 --> 00:24:35,799
» So is from the whole section or just a
specific section of that?

294
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:48,200
I think it could be subsection D maybe
that just allows this to

295
00:24:49,039 --> 00:24:55,440
um
so it says regardless of size no track

296
00:24:53,279 --> 00:24:59,039
of land subsequently subdivided from its
parent track shall qualify for

297
00:24:56,799 --> 00:25:03,360
additional
>> yeah I would agree D would probably be

298
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:05,679
the and it also refers to A and C as
well

299
00:25:05,919 --> 00:25:10,240
So, I'm sorry. E
>> D.

300
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,960
» Yeah.
>> Okay.

301
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:16,400
» Not FF.
>> Well, section FF

302
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:20,159
» D.
>> Okay.

303
00:25:17,919 --> 00:25:23,720
» Um
section 270-5.2A

304
00:25:25,279 --> 00:25:35,440
is the um specific use regulations for
an accessory dwelling unit.

305
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:40,632
Uh once you have that let me know.
>> Okay.

306
00:25:37,279 --> 00:25:40,632
» So [clears throat]

307
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:51,600
three says the accessory dwelling unit
should not exceed 40% of the total

308
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:56,480
square footage of the primary set or um
structure.

309
00:25:54,080 --> 00:26:00,880
How big is this garage or whatever
you're putting though? Because I'm

310
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:05,840
looking at what you have up there
originally.

311
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:11,279
If that's 720 square feet,
I don't think it's going to fit over

312
00:26:07,120 --> 00:26:17,760
that what you have shown on the
>> Yeah. So, I would just note that the

313
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:23,440
accessory dwelling unit is for I think
limited to family members, an ADU. Uh,

314
00:26:21,279 --> 00:26:27,679
and it's typically based on the size of
the house that you can, which I'm sure

315
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:32,480
the board's familiar with it.
>> It is, but the reason I'm asking about

316
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:36,880
the garage because the accessory
dwelling unit is going to be right

317
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:42,720
» part of this garage. So, as long as it
doesn't exceed 40% of that garage space,

318
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:46,880
you wouldn't need to do anything. But if
it's going to exceed 40%.

319
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:50,320
Because it looks like it would take up
the whole top four,

320
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:57,279
» right?
um you happen to know will the garage

321
00:26:53,919 --> 00:27:02,960
have is this the entire second floor of
the garage or is the garage have some

322
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:05,520
additional floor space that uh would be
built? I don't know if you can bring up

323
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:11,279
that.
>> So the it it would not be the entire top

324
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:13,360
of the garage. So if you pull that plan
back up

325
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:19,440
» Y
>> and I think the the the submission

326
00:27:15,919 --> 00:27:23,919
that's been updated um
will show a more you know again we're

327
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:30,240
this from a storm water management
standpoint we're just trying to get the

328
00:27:26,799 --> 00:27:36,559
the sizes of these buildings down. Um
but that right there that garage it it's

329
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:40,320
going to be roughly four garage doors.
>> Okay. So, this is probably still showing

330
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:45,760
a little bit smaller than what it will
actually be. So, um the apartment, if

331
00:27:43,919 --> 00:27:47,840
this was to scale, the apartment's only
going to come to like here.

332
00:27:47,120 --> 00:27:51,919
» Okay.
>> It would actually come to here because

333
00:27:50,159 --> 00:27:52,799
we're trying to stay away from this over
here.

334
00:27:52,159 --> 00:27:56,960
» I would hope.
>> Yeah.

335
00:27:55,120 --> 00:28:00,240
» I just want to make sure that
>> we don't have to come back here and say,

336
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:03,360
"Hey, it's going to be more than 40%
now. We need a variance to that."

337
00:28:01,679 --> 00:28:07,200
» Yeah. I mean, I think the question would
be if the board's viewing this as an

338
00:28:05,279 --> 00:28:11,120
accessory dwelling unit and we're
seeking a variance for the limitation on

339
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:17,200
family members because I looked at the
definition for accessory dwelling unit.

340
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:23,440
Um, we asked for a variance to allow a
farmworker apartment uh as an accessory

341
00:28:20,159 --> 00:28:27,919
use to the egg use. Uh, but to the
extent the board is viewing this as an

342
00:28:25,120 --> 00:28:32,480
accessory dwelling unit, um, do you
think you're going to be 40% or less of

343
00:28:30,399 --> 00:28:36,960
the garage?
>> So, you're saying the the floor plate of

344
00:28:34,399 --> 00:28:40,799
the garage, let's just say it's 1,000
square feet. The apartment then could be

345
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:46,240
400 square feet.
>> Yeah, correct.

346
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:49,840
» Unless you ask for a variance to that.
>> I mean, I would

347
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:53,440
» might be a little small.
>> It might be a little small. I mean, I I

348
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:59,200
don't have an answer sitting here if
it's going to be over 40 or not. Um, I

349
00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:03,200
mean, if I had my choice, I would say
not to limit it to that just in case we

350
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:06,799
run into
whatever maybe stair staircases, things

351
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:11,120
like that that are going to take up
square footage that would ultimately go

352
00:29:09,039 --> 00:29:17,559
against that 40%.
Okay.

353
00:29:12,399 --> 00:29:17,559
um number 11 under the same section,

354
00:29:20,799 --> 00:29:26,240
» right?
>> I think he would need be. I have some

355
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:31,559
suggested changes here that you might
want. Um and then also number 12.

356
00:29:32,399 --> 00:29:40,000
» Yeah. So again, um the application
wasn't really submitted as an accessory

357
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:46,000
dwelling unit, but we certainly if the
board is more comfortable

358
00:29:43,279 --> 00:29:51,039
uh with that approach, we don't we don't
have any opposition to that, we would

359
00:29:47,919 --> 00:29:56,399
probably need to amend the request to
ask for

360
00:29:52,880 --> 00:30:03,120
um variances to the 40% and the family
members uh provision

361
00:29:59,919 --> 00:30:08,320
um and to the extent that you want the
property owner to record something to be

362
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:14,159
sure that future property owners are
aware that it's limited. I don't think

363
00:30:10,799 --> 00:30:16,720
you'd have a problem with that.
>> And [clears throat] that's what I'm

364
00:30:15,679 --> 00:30:23,520
basically headed to.
>> It actually makes some sense to me to to

365
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:28,960
maybe approach it that way. So, I mean,
if that feels like the right approach,

366
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:37,960
we would just make a motion to amend the
request for a variance to include 270-

367
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,960
52A

368
00:30:38,559 --> 00:30:48,000
3 to allow the apartment to potentially
exceed 40%.

369
00:30:45,679 --> 00:30:55,120
And 11
to allow farm workers

370
00:30:51,440 --> 00:31:00,240
to reside there and not limit it to
family members.

371
00:30:57,679 --> 00:31:04,399
And uh I think those would be the only
two. You'll have at least one parking

372
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:06,960
space for the farm manager.
>> Yeah.

373
00:31:05,039 --> 00:31:12,240
» Okay.
>> Um we'll get to your request for

374
00:31:09,679 --> 00:31:15,240
amending here in a second.
um

375
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:26,480
for the time extension because the board
will be considering this in two days on

376
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:32,960
Wednesday night. If they approve that,
do you still need an additional year on

377
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:36,799
top of the year you're permitted?
>> Well, um

378
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:43,679
probably not.
>> Okay. But I think just based on how

379
00:31:39,679 --> 00:31:49,200
things went last time, we would at least
maybe request six months if the board's

380
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:53,440
inclined to give us a little cushion to
have enough time. While the land

381
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:57,440
development plans have been prepared,
there's storm water management. There's

382
00:31:55,360 --> 00:32:01,919
unlaw septic. There's still some
complexities that can take longer than

383
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,600
you anticipate.
>> Okay.

384
00:32:02,559 --> 00:32:09,519
» Eric, if you
>> I mean, a lot of that Sorry. a lot of

385
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:16,559
that work is done. Um or it's it's at a
it's 75 85% complete. Um maybe I ask a

386
00:32:14,559 --> 00:32:21,679
question. When when does that clock
stop? Is that at a stormwater management

387
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:28,559
approval or when when what when does
that year when does that stop?

388
00:32:26,399 --> 00:32:32,880
So,
my understanding, I'll have our

389
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:39,440
solicitor correct me here if I'm wrong,
which I'm probably going to be, but um

390
00:32:36,399 --> 00:32:43,600
once you get all your zoning
permits

391
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:50,000
and once you start the land development
process, I believe there's a fiveyear

392
00:32:46,159 --> 00:32:53,399
grace period. Is that correct
with the MPC?

393
00:32:53,519 --> 00:33:02,960
Um
I don't know because there there's also

394
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:08,159
a requirement in for um I think for
construction as well. I I I thought

395
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:14,960
» this
uh this is Nate the planning director.

396
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:18,080
Uh so for the timing from the the zoning
hearing board approval through land

397
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:22,960
development approval would be the
recording date and then once they record

398
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:30,399
the plans they are protected from a
zoning perspective for five years.

399
00:33:26,799 --> 00:33:35,200
» So the once we record the storm water
management plan is that what you're

400
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:39,760
saying? Well, it would it would be the
the recording of the land development

401
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:44,559
plan, which would only be recorded if
you have the storm water management

402
00:33:41,519 --> 00:33:50,760
plans approved. I I think to answer the
chairman's question, when I look at uh

403
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:50,760
270-9.1

404
00:33:52,559 --> 00:33:56,919
D or D3E,

405
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:02,720
it says for zoning hearing board
approvals which are required as part of

406
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:06,000
the subdivision and land development
process,

407
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:10,159
um
the above stated time restrictions do

408
00:34:08,159 --> 00:34:14,399
not apply so long as the subdivision or
land development plan is filed within in

409
00:34:12,159 --> 00:34:21,440
the township within one year from the
board's decision and the final approval

410
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:25,679
and recording occurs with one year um
within one year from the date of the

411
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:29,440
authorization thereof
uh if such special exceptional variance

412
00:34:27,359 --> 00:34:35,119
has been appealed. So, as I read that,
you have to submit a land development

413
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:40,560
plan within a year and then um you will
have to record it.

414
00:34:37,679 --> 00:34:44,639
Um
maybe within another year,

415
00:34:44,079 --> 00:34:49,760
» maybe.
>> Mine says six months, but mine might be

416
00:34:46,240 --> 00:34:54,399
old for for actually submitting the the
subdivision of land amount development.

417
00:34:51,839 --> 00:34:58,440
» We we did update that uh
>> I believe a year and a half ago.

418
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:06,480
So,
if we were to give you approval tonight,

419
00:35:04,240 --> 00:35:11,359
you have one year to file land
development plan. At that point, once

420
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:17,599
the land development plan is filed, you
have a 5year grace period to complete

421
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:23,200
constru construction. Correct, Nate?
>> Correct.

422
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:27,599
» Wow. Wait, say that again. Sorry.
Once the land development plan is filed,

423
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:31,280
if we were to give them approval
tonight, they have one year to file the

424
00:35:29,119 --> 00:35:35,200
land development plan. Once that's
filed, they then have a fiveyear period

425
00:35:34,240 --> 00:35:38,720
to complete.
>> Once it's filed, they have a year to

426
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:41,680
record the plan
>> and then you have a

427
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:46,640
» then correct.
>> Yeah, that's my understanding as well.

428
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:51,599
So, we basically have two years to
record it, one year to file it,

429
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:56,240
» right? And at any point I think we can
come in before it expires and request an

430
00:35:54,560 --> 00:36:00,800
extension. That's correct.
>> We will just need to do extra diligence

431
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:04,480
on the tickler side of things to be sure
we know.

432
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:08,480
» But does that make sense? So
>> uh I I think we would be okay

433
00:36:06,720 --> 00:36:12,000
withdrawing the request for the
>> because I I just hate to give you I

434
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:14,560
always like to give the minimal variance
request. Y

435
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:17,440
» and if you only need the six months, I'd
give you six months. If you think you

436
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:19,599
can get it all done in a year, if not,
you can always come for an additional

437
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:26,119
time.
>> No, I I think that's fine.

438
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:26,119
» Uh just so your

439
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:36,960
um client is aware, uh conditions in
case 1051 would still be in effect

440
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:41,119
except for um number one, which is the
no dwelling, which we we could approve

441
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:47,560
tonight.
And case number 247 is null and void

442
00:36:43,839 --> 00:36:47,560
because that expired.

443
00:36:52,079 --> 00:36:56,960
One last question. I didn't see this
anywhere on any of the submitted

444
00:36:55,440 --> 00:37:02,720
drawings.
What's the expected lot coverage?

445
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:07,440
» The impervious surface.
>> Y

446
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:11,839
» I don't know the exact amount, but I do
know that it's well within the

447
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:17,200
requirement. I think it's 10%. Correct,
Nate

448
00:37:14,240 --> 00:37:21,920
or Jeremy?
>> Um, they're allowed substantially more

449
00:37:19,839 --> 00:37:27,520
than what they're going to use.
>> Okay. I think it's you I think it's 10%.

450
00:37:25,359 --> 00:37:32,400
So, in your case, it's 37 acres,
correct? So, you'd allow 3.7 acres of

451
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:35,280
lot coverage.
Are you going to you're going to be

452
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:37,200
substantially under that? Is what you're
saying?

453
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:40,960
» Yeah. I mean, this the civil engineer
that I'm using has has obviously looked

454
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:46,960
at that and done the calculation and he
said there's no issues with impervious

455
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:50,240
surface um based on this this current
plan.

456
00:37:48,079 --> 00:37:56,720
» For what it's worth, I'm looking at
maximum lot coverage.

457
00:37:53,119 --> 00:38:01,280
It says agricultural 60% which sounds
high to me for an a district, but

458
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:06,720
» I thought it was 10. I looked up
>> uh and and the residential use is still

459
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:09,520
fairly high. I think slight 35% like
they they have no issues with lock

460
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:13,480
coverage.
>> Okay, perfect.

461
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:23,200
Any questions?
>> No. Jason,

462
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:28,160
» um yeah, just one or two. Uh did you So
you is there currently a local horse

463
00:38:25,839 --> 00:38:29,520
operation that's being moved to this
property?

464
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:35,760
» Correct.
>> Okay. Um and where is that?

465
00:38:32,079 --> 00:38:35,760
» It's in Litz. Okay.

466
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:47,680
and it be about the same size in terms
of horses and and everything.

467
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:54,480
» Actually, this would be smaller. So, the
current operation is

468
00:38:51,520 --> 00:39:01,000
22 horses give or take. So, this would
this is purposely smaller.

469
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:01,000
» Okay.

470
00:39:08,240 --> 00:39:11,240
Um,

471
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:18,800
all right. And so you're you're
withdrawing the request for the the time

472
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:22,320
extension.
You're um I don't think the board's

473
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:28,240
acted on it yet, but you made a motion
to uh request the additional variances

474
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:31,200
from the accessory dwelling unit
criteria. Essentially,

475
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:35,839
» we'll get to that one minute there.
>> Okay.

476
00:39:33,359 --> 00:39:40,160
» Um,
okay. I think that's all.

477
00:39:38,720 --> 00:39:43,800
» Anybody in the audience have any
questions for the applicant?

478
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:53,760
» All right.
Mr. At this time, we'll um you would

479
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:57,599
restate your request to amend your
application.

480
00:39:55,119 --> 00:40:04,280
» Sure. We'd like to amend the application
to include a variance to 270-5.1,

481
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:13,359
I'm sorry, 5.2
A, which is accessory dwelling units

482
00:40:10,720 --> 00:40:16,359
subsection.
Um,

483
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:20,480
» three
>> three1

484
00:40:19,119 --> 00:40:25,920
and 12.
>> Thank you. 311. Uh, and I guess 12 we

485
00:40:24,079 --> 00:40:30,079
wouldn't be looking for relief from. We
would actually be willing to record that

486
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:35,200
document if the if the board would like
us to see that. Uh, it would just need

487
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:40,240
to be I guess you're right that the
relief would be to indicate it's limited

488
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:42,480
to farm workers and not family members.
>> Correct.

489
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:46,560
» So, it's the same concept as the
accessory dwelling unit, but it would be

490
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:51,200
limited to farm workers.
>> Right. And it would have to be recorded

491
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:55,599
on the land development plan.
>> Yep. Um I think it actually requires

492
00:40:54,079 --> 00:40:58,560
maybe recording on the
>> deed also

493
00:40:56,720 --> 00:41:06,240
» uh recorder of deeds a notorized
document. So uh we can do that

494
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:10,319
and we'll run that by the the township
solicitor to be sure it's acceptable.

495
00:41:08,720 --> 00:41:12,400
» We do have a template agreement for
that.

496
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:16,000
» Oh great.
>> And you would like to

497
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:18,480
withdraw the request for the time
extension.

498
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:24,480
» That's correct. Gentlemen, you had a
request by the applicant to amend their

499
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:27,040
um application as stated. Um do I have a
motion? Can

500
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:31,599
» I ask a question first before we move on
that? When you're asking for the

501
00:41:28,319 --> 00:41:34,800
extension um to exceed the 40%, what
would be a comfortable number? I don't

502
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:37,800
want to just throw you do whatever you
want.

503
00:41:41,359 --> 00:41:47,040
» Are you So you're saying the the 40% is
the size of the apartment based on the

504
00:41:45,359 --> 00:41:51,119
barn size. All right. right now. Right
now is what it's allowed, but what would

505
00:41:49,119 --> 00:41:56,480
you feel comfortable with?
>> What you what you submitted was 720 ft.

506
00:41:54,000 --> 00:42:02,000
» That Yeah. And again, that it's not the
final, but it's that that is what we

507
00:41:59,839 --> 00:42:06,720
intended to to look like.
>> My suggestion is yes, for 50%. Because

508
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:12,560
if you're building a two-story garage,
that gives you the ability to use the

509
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:17,119
whole top floor of the garage.
That

510
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:17,119
» That's fair. Good.

511
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:21,839
I'm good. Okay. Do we have a motion?
I'll

512
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:24,480
» move. Have a second.
>> I'll second it.

513
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:32,040
» All right. We have a motion, a second to
amend the applicant's application to add

514
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:32,040
a variance to section 270-5.2A3

515
00:42:33,839 --> 00:42:41,359
uh 11 and 12
and to withdraw the request for a time

516
00:42:38,720 --> 00:42:44,000
extension. Mr. Kalis, how you vote?
>> In favor,

517
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:50,119
» Mr. Loose. in favor.
>> I will also vote in favor. Your

518
00:42:46,079 --> 00:42:50,119
application has been amended.

519
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:59,520
» Um, is there anything else you wish to
add before we close testimony?

520
00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:02,400
» No. Thank you for directing us to the
accessory dwelling unit. I think that's

521
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:06,560
a better approach.
>> I just think that's the way to go.

522
00:43:03,839 --> 00:43:12,000
» I agree.
In that case, uh, in case number

523
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:17,440
2500,
we will, uh, close testimony and take

524
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:22,880
administrative notice of cases number
1051

525
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:25,880
and, um,
2470.

526
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:38,240
Gentlemen, I'll entertain a motion.
Mr. Chairman, uh, for case number 2500,

527
00:43:35,359 --> 00:43:47,400
uh, for Eric Wardrop and Tasha Plunkett
at 135 Rut Road, I move that we approve

528
00:43:43,119 --> 00:43:47,400
the variance to section 270-5.2

529
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:54,800
FFD
to allow construction of a triple FD.

530
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:59,040
Section FF,
>> didn't I? Okay. D.

531
00:43:56,640 --> 00:44:02,640
» Yeah. to allow construction of a farm
dwelling

532
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:07,160
and the variance uh approved the
variance to section 270-3.2B

533
00:44:07,839 --> 00:44:14,560
to allow an accessory farm worker
apartment

534
00:44:13,119 --> 00:44:17,560
to allow the variance of section
270-5.2A3

535
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:24,760
to allow the dwelling to exceed the 40%
to 50%.

536
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:31,160
To variance uh approve the variance of
section 275.2A1

537
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:41,319
to allow that dwelling to be occupied by
a non-family resident

538
00:44:37,839 --> 00:44:41,319
and then 270-5.2A12

539
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:52,000
to record the residence as a non-family
and only foreign work.

540
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:55,359
» Okay. And um what about the request for
variance to modification of conditions

541
00:44:53,760 --> 00:45:01,920
in case number 105?
>> Again, the modification of conditions.

542
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:05,200
» Okay. Um I'd like to add our standard
conditions.

543
00:45:03,119 --> 00:45:11,680
» Yep.
>> All right. Case number 2500. Uh request

544
00:45:08,240 --> 00:45:18,319
of Eric Orard and Trisha Plunkett for
property located 135 road, Manheim PA.

545
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:24,800
Grant them a request their variance for
modification of condition number one in

546
00:45:21,599 --> 00:45:32,560
case number 1051
a variance from section 270-5.2

547
00:45:29,359 --> 00:45:38,319
triple FD
the section

548
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:41,319
variance to section 270
uh-3.2B

549
00:45:43,359 --> 00:45:49,160
to allow for farm workers
um

550
00:45:49,839 --> 00:45:58,560
accessory dwelling unit. The variance to
section 270-5.2

551
00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:07,359
two
A

552
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:13,280
3 11 and 12 to allow for um three to
allow for uh 40 50% total square footage

553
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:16,280
of the primary structure of the
residence.

554
00:46:16,319 --> 00:46:27,680
11 allow um to allow
farm workers to occupy the accessory

555
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:35,440
dwelling and 12
um to allow um that um farm workers the

556
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:42,400
the property owner record shall record a
notorized statement

557
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:49,119
saying it's farm workers and if
in the future I would like to add one

558
00:46:44,720 --> 00:46:53,760
other condition um that if the property
is no longer going to be used for

559
00:46:51,119 --> 00:46:56,920
agriculture, this decision become null
and void.

560
00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:06,240
» I'll second it.
>> So motion uh made and seconded by Mr.

561
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:09,560
Caldes.
Any discussion?

562
00:47:10,079 --> 00:47:14,560
If not, Mr. Kus, how you vote?
>> In favor,

563
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:17,839
» Mr. Loose. in favor
>> and I will also vote in favor. Your

564
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:19,040
request has been granted.
>> Thank you, gentlemen.

565
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:22,280
» Thank you.
>> Thank you.

566
00:47:23,839 --> 00:47:28,280
» Take a five minute break real quick.

567
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:34,079
» Back on the record.
>> All right, we're back on the record.

568
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:39,680
Jeremy, would you please call the next
case?

569
00:47:36,720 --> 00:47:44,240
» Case number 25501, Specialized Education
Systems, Inc. 808 Estella Drive seeking

570
00:47:42,319 --> 00:47:48,000
a special exception for a use not
provided for.

571
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:51,680
» Is there somebody here from Specialized
Education Systems?

572
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:56,480
» Yes, my name is Elizabeth Venos. I'm
here from Barley Snder on behalf of

573
00:47:54,079 --> 00:48:00,720
Specialized Education Systems. We also
have two representatives from

574
00:47:58,720 --> 00:48:03,280
Specialized Education System here this
evening.

575
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:05,200
» Two things. One, can you state your last
name again?

576
00:48:03,839 --> 00:48:10,280
» Sure. It's Venos.
>> Venas.

577
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:10,280
» Van AS.

578
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:17,599
And is there anybody in the audience
wants to be a party to this case?

579
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:21,040
» Are they
>> They're already They're with us.

580
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:24,960
» If you're part of the application,
you're already a party.

581
00:48:23,119 --> 00:48:29,359
» So, we have two witnesses planned for
you this evening from Specialized

582
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:33,520
Education Systems, Inc. Since that name
is a mouthful, we'll just be referring

583
00:48:31,119 --> 00:48:38,160
to it by its acronym, which is CESI,
just to save us all some time. So from

584
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:42,880
Cessi, the two witnesses we have planned
this evening are Marcus Henley and

585
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:47,920
Michael Espazito and you'll be hearing
from both of them shortly about the

586
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:53,760
plans for this property. We also do have
a member of the entity that owns this

587
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:59,359
property. We have Wilmer Muser um from
Estelle Group LLC um the legal owner of

588
00:48:56,960 --> 00:49:03,920
the property. Uh we do not plan to ask
him any questions, but he is here if the

589
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:10,160
board has any questions about the
property itself or anything that he

590
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:15,839
might be better poised to answer.
So, as was mentioned, we're here about

591
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:20,319
property located at 808 Estelle Drive.
You may be familiar with this property.

592
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:25,359
It was most recently used as a
Chesterbrook Academy daycare, and Cessie

593
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:29,920
is the prospective applicant of that
same building. That building is

594
00:49:27,839 --> 00:49:34,960
currently vacant and has been for a
period of time since um Chesterbrook

595
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:42,800
moved out of it and it is available for
lease and Cessie is looking to use the

596
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:48,880
property for its specialized education
programming. Um CESI you'll hear shortly

597
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:54,000
from Mr. Espazito is a company that
contracts with and partners with local

598
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:59,119
school districts to provide specialized
education services for students who

599
00:49:56,720 --> 00:50:04,720
might have behavioral or learning
disabilities um or special needs of some

600
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:09,040
kind. And it provides some programming
um outside of the traditional school

601
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:12,520
system and outside of the traditional
classroom environment.

602
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:21,920
So Cessi is looking to use this existing
building. There is no development

603
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:27,920
planned to it. They're not planning to
um really make many changes at all as

604
00:50:24,240 --> 00:50:32,800
Mr. Espazito will say. Um and I'll have
them up shortly, but just to kind of tee

605
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:37,920
this up um the applicants p
representatives met with township staff

606
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:42,800
earlier this summer um to talk about how
this use might be categorized since it

607
00:50:40,079 --> 00:50:47,920
is a bit of a unique use. It's doesn't
fall under any of the definitions in the

608
00:50:45,119 --> 00:50:52,240
ordinance. It's not an office or
professional service building. Um, and

609
00:50:50,079 --> 00:50:55,760
it's also not necessarily a traditional
school. So, after meeting with your

610
00:50:54,079 --> 00:51:01,280
zoning officer and your township
manager, um, we were advised to apply

611
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:07,520
for a special exception for a use not
provided for as a special education

612
00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:11,040
facility. It has some markers of a
school, but as I said, it's not a

613
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:14,640
traditional classroom environment. and
Miss Henley will come up shortly to

614
00:51:12,720 --> 00:51:19,920
explain kind of what the day-to-day
programming looks like um and how it is

615
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:24,319
different from a traditional school.
So again, we're asking for a use not

616
00:51:22,079 --> 00:51:29,920
provided for um which is something
that's not necessarily specifically

617
00:51:27,119 --> 00:51:34,240
prohibited or um allowed by the
ordinance and it doesn't meet any of the

618
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:39,119
other ordinance definitions. Um, we did
go through kind of the general and

619
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:44,160
specific special exception criteria from
your ordinance for this use, but again,

620
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:48,720
that's under section 270-1.9
for the use not provided for. So, I'll

621
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:53,200
have Mr. Espazito come up first to give
some background on CESI and what it does

622
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:57,720
in this area and then we'll have Miss
Henley come up next to talk about

623
00:51:54,720 --> 00:51:57,720
programming.

624
00:52:00,559 --> 00:52:07,040
» Apologies. Just for the record, the
applicant is specialized education

625
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:11,839
services, not systems, but I'll keep
referring to it as CESI just because

626
00:52:08,559 --> 00:52:13,920
that is a mouthful. So, um, can you just
state your name and title for the

627
00:52:13,359 --> 00:52:17,440
record?
>> Michael Espazito, regional vice

628
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:21,760
president.
>> And what is your role at CESI?

629
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:26,640
» So, I oversee, uh, the Pennsylvania
region, Ohio region, parts of Georgia

630
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:31,520
and stuff. Um, I oversee the operations
of setting up programs, getting them

631
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:34,640
started, getting folks trained, and
getting them to go.

632
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:38,559
» How long have you been in this role or
involved with CESI?

633
00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:43,200
» I've been with SESI since 2010. I've
been in this role since 2015.

634
00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:47,920
» So, can you scribe describe just a
little bit for the board um what SESI is

635
00:52:45,839 --> 00:52:52,079
and what it does and especially focusing
kind of on the Lancaster area?

636
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:57,040
» Yes. So, so we what we do is we
typically um we'll go out to districts

637
00:52:54,800 --> 00:53:01,839
and talk to them and see what their
needs are and they'll sort of bring

638
00:53:00,240 --> 00:53:06,720
their consortium of the surrounding
districts uh around, right? Because some

639
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:11,440
of these some of the services that are
needed desperately in some of these

640
00:53:08,559 --> 00:53:16,319
districts, they can't sustain an actual
program on their own. So what we do is

641
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:19,680
we bring the consortium where it's uh
cohesive together and they collaborate

642
00:53:18,319 --> 00:53:24,079
with each other and then we sort of
script out our plan and stuff and what

643
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:29,040
the services we'll be providing to them.
Lancaster we actually we've been in

644
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:33,359
Lancaster for about 14 years. Uh we ran
we run a credit recovery program there.

645
00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:37,040
We run alternative ed for folks that you
know behavior students. Uh we've been

646
00:53:35,119 --> 00:53:41,359
there since Yeah. 14 years.
>> And has Cessie already been in contact

647
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:45,599
with Hefield School District? I actually
met with uh Hempfield School District

648
00:53:43,359 --> 00:53:50,960
personally last August with uh Dr.
Goodidge. Um we have a bunch of York

649
00:53:48,240 --> 00:53:56,240
programs that are going to be similar to
what we're looking to do here and

650
00:53:53,760 --> 00:54:00,720
Hempfield actually sends their students
out to York. And just one thing I just

651
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:04,160
want to note like well when I did tell
them that we were actually looking at

652
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:08,079
the Bustleton area and stuff like they
went crazy like they you know they were

653
00:54:06,079 --> 00:54:12,319
excited that we get closer because
transportation for some of these kids uh

654
00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:15,920
it's a lot they're sitting on a van and
these are kids that are on the spectrum

655
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:21,280
and stuff so you know them being on the
van as long as they are in a day and

656
00:54:17,599 --> 00:54:24,640
they should be in the building you know.
So based on your meetings with the

657
00:54:23,119 --> 00:54:28,640
school district and what you just said
and in your experience, would you say

658
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:31,359
there's a need for this type of facility
in this area?

659
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:35,280
» And absolutely. And it wasn't just
Hempfield. We've met we, you know, with

660
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:41,280
the consortium idea. We met with Eastern
Lancaster. We've met with Warick. We've

661
00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:45,599
met with starts with P. Yeah. Yeah. I
can never get it right. Um yeah. So

662
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:51,040
there there's a bunch of districts that
are sort of in the wings hoping, right?

663
00:54:48,079 --> 00:54:56,240
Um you know, this is one of our biggest
issues when we look at some of these is

664
00:54:53,599 --> 00:55:01,440
actually finding the space and once this
fell I mean it couldn't be more perfect.

665
00:54:59,839 --> 00:55:06,319
» So I know you just mentioned that this
building is well suited. Um we do have

666
00:55:04,720 --> 00:55:10,800
and I'll pass this around to the board.
This was not submitted with our

667
00:55:07,599 --> 00:55:16,559
application but um the applicant did
work with a local architect to put

668
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:20,640
together a revised floor plan. um
actually measured out. The one that was

669
00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:25,200
um included in the application was from
the property's broker. So um I'll go

670
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:28,839
ahead and pass this around and we'll put
this into the record.

671
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:38,160
» I mean the the build this building
layout is a split image of the ones we

672
00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:41,920
have in York. Like just bizarre that
that because that never happens like

673
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:45,319
that for us, but it is exactly a
splitting image.

674
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:05,839
So the the the exhibit that's in that
was with the application that said floor

675
00:56:04,319 --> 00:56:09,839
plan. That's not correct. That's
>> So that is correct. But this one

676
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:14,720
actually has measurements on it. The
architect did actually go out to the

677
00:56:11,839 --> 00:56:19,040
site and measure everything with a tape.
So, we wanted to provide this updated

678
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:23,280
plan. It actually shows the same thing
that's currently being projected. That

679
00:56:21,599 --> 00:56:27,440
was the floor plan submitted with the
application. The only thing I will warn

680
00:56:25,359 --> 00:56:32,640
you is that this one is orientated
oriented slightly different. Um, so you

681
00:56:30,319 --> 00:56:37,119
would want to turn it to 90 degrees. I
think it would be

682
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:42,400
» counterclockwise.
>> Yes. just so you can kind of match it up

683
00:56:39,839 --> 00:56:47,920
with what um what the floor plan was
that we submitted with our application.

684
00:56:44,799 --> 00:56:55,040
Um but Michael, what I want to ask you
about this uh exhibit A1 that we're

685
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:58,079
looking at this floor plan is Cessie um
proposing any big changes to the

686
00:56:56,799 --> 00:57:02,079
building.
>> Like I said, it it's pretty much ready

687
00:57:00,319 --> 00:57:08,079
to go. I mean, maybe some minor work
around the bathrooms depending on stuff,

688
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:13,040
but that's about it. Okay. So, this is
already outfitted for an education use.

689
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:15,280
You've got the facilities you need.
>> We could run the program. We could start

690
00:57:14,559 --> 00:57:18,280
tomorrow.
>> Okay.

691
00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:28,400
» Just a couple of more questions. So, one
of the things we have to show is that

692
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:33,280
this proposed use is compatible with the
other neighboring uses in the area. it

693
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:36,480
won't detract from them and won't cause,
you know, any detrimental effects to

694
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:41,040
health, safety, and welfare. In your
opinion, does this pose any of those

695
00:57:38,079 --> 00:57:43,599
risks? And in your opinion, this is
appropriate. This is an appropriate use

696
00:57:42,799 --> 00:57:46,000
for the site?
>> Yes.

697
00:57:44,079 --> 00:57:50,240
» Okay. Those are all the questions I had
for Mr. Espazito. We do have one more

698
00:57:48,319 --> 00:57:57,200
witness planned, but if the board has
questions for him at this point,

699
00:57:54,160 --> 00:58:03,920
» um, my question is how how recently
vacated was the previous Mr. Muser would

700
00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:07,119
probably be
How recently was this vacated? My

701
00:58:05,599 --> 00:58:10,119
understanding is it was a little over a
year.

702
00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:18,079
» All right. Um,
for the record, could you please state

703
00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:21,319
your name and address, please, for the
court reporter?

704
00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:30,799
» Homemer Muser, 1721
Lilac Drive, Litz.

705
00:58:28,319 --> 00:58:34,119
» Okay. And you're representing uh the
owner

706
00:58:31,119 --> 00:58:34,119
» ownership.

707
00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:41,440
Do you have any questions for
>> you said that it it it's ready to go and

708
00:58:38,319 --> 00:58:47,200
could be How quickly are you thinking of
getting in and and doing the uh your

709
00:58:45,680 --> 00:58:51,359
programs for Hempfield?
>> Yeah. So when we do open these programs,

710
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:55,839
we also have to fill out an application
with the state and we work with PTE and

711
00:58:53,680 --> 00:59:00,480
stuff. So we've been currently working
and sort of like prepping that these are

712
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:03,839
possibilities because they have very
strict guidelines in terms of their

713
00:59:02,400 --> 00:59:08,480
board meetings and when you can get on
their agenda and stuff. So if all in a

714
00:59:06,799 --> 00:59:12,200
perfect world, we would look for like a
mid January start.

715
00:59:12,880 --> 00:59:15,880
» Nope.

716
00:59:17,680 --> 00:59:27,280
» How would you describe this company? Is
it a education company? Are students

717
00:59:24,799 --> 00:59:29,760
there all day long or students come and
go?

718
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:34,160
» So we have a variety of programming,
right? So specialized education

719
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:38,000
services, that's that's it. So depending
on what the programming is, this

720
00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:42,640
programming being that it's going to be
mainly for kids that are on the autism

721
00:59:39,680 --> 00:59:47,440
spectrum and stuff, we typically have
those kids for some time, right? They're

722
00:59:44,559 --> 00:59:53,440
they're sent to us. The ultimate goal is
always to try to one get kids back into

723
00:59:50,480 --> 00:59:56,880
society to be productive citizens and to
get, you know, if it's a behavior

724
00:59:54,799 --> 01:00:00,880
program, you know, the state also has
different guidelines too, right? Like

725
00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:04,720
you got you got to transition kids back
into the homeschool districts, get them

726
01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:09,040
back into the mainstream so they could
function and whatever. But it depending

727
01:00:07,040 --> 01:00:12,319
on the programming, we do a ton of
professional development for teachers.

728
01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:17,599
We work with districts with coaching,
tutoring, um, mental health. I mean, it

729
01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:21,920
it's a variety of things depending on
what your

730
01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:25,839
» I think if your question is more kind of
geared toward maybe day-to-day

731
01:00:23,839 --> 01:00:27,760
activities and programming students in
the building.

732
01:00:27,520 --> 01:00:30,480
» Yes,
>> Miss Henley's going to be your

733
01:00:29,119 --> 01:00:34,160
» Do they come here in the morning and
stay until it's time to go home?

734
01:00:32,559 --> 01:00:37,119
» So, those students are there pretty much
all day. Correct.

735
01:00:35,200 --> 01:00:41,359
» Correct.
>> Sounds like a school to me.

736
01:00:39,440 --> 01:00:46,079
Well, based on our meeting with township
staff, it doesn't quite meet the kind of

737
01:00:44,079 --> 01:00:51,359
run-of-the-mill school definition since
it's it's a quasi school office and it

738
01:00:48,720 --> 01:00:55,520
does provide some other specialized
programming that's a little bit

739
01:00:52,799 --> 01:00:59,359
different from a school or a daycare.
>> I understand that. I have an issue with

740
01:00:57,359 --> 01:01:03,200
a use not provided for.
>> Sure.

741
01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:06,480
» Um and we'll get into that in a minute.
I'm going to turn it over to our

742
01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:11,200
solicitor here a minute about the time
limit.

743
01:01:08,079 --> 01:01:16,160
Okay. Well, yeah. So, I guess the the
question has been answered that it's

744
01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:20,240
it's been vacated for over a year.
>> Yes.

745
01:01:16,960 --> 01:01:24,400
» Otherwise, you could have asked for a a
um substitution of a non-conforming use.

746
01:01:22,640 --> 01:01:29,119
» Right. That's why we had met with
township staff beforehand since this was

747
01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:33,599
vacated. We couldn't reinstitute or try
to substitute a non-conforming use. We

748
01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:38,160
had Mr. Espazito was in the meeting as
well. we had kind of, you know, run

749
01:01:36,319 --> 01:01:43,839
through with zoning officer and township
manager types of programming here the

750
01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:47,520
work that this um business does with the
school districts. And we're advised

751
01:01:45,599 --> 01:01:51,839
that, you know, this isn't technically a
run-of-the-mill school um under the

752
01:01:49,839 --> 01:01:56,000
definition in your ordinance. And it
also doesn't necessarily meet, you know,

753
01:01:54,240 --> 01:02:00,799
community activity building or
professional offices or um you know,

754
01:01:59,119 --> 01:02:03,839
services buildings and things of that
nature in your ordinance. So this is

755
01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:07,359
kind of a unique
>> Okay. How how are you licensed by the

756
01:02:05,839 --> 01:02:12,240
state?
>> Once once we fill out that PAS

757
01:02:09,520 --> 01:02:16,400
application, they'll come in once we
have the certificate off. That will

758
01:02:14,640 --> 01:02:19,680
trigger them to come out and they do
their whole like walk through. They do

759
01:02:17,839 --> 01:02:23,599
their audit. They check make sure our
programming is right, staffing is

760
01:02:21,440 --> 01:02:28,400
according, certifications are correct,
and then they will issue us the

761
01:02:26,480 --> 01:02:33,920
certificate. And then after the first
year of operations, because we are an

762
01:02:31,040 --> 01:02:39,280
accredited organization through Cognia,
we will live under the Cogna

763
01:02:35,520 --> 01:02:43,200
accreditation license and then PAS will
ship that that paperwork over to them.

764
01:02:41,200 --> 01:02:46,880
» Okay. I guess I meant is it are you
licensed in the same category as a

765
01:02:45,359 --> 01:02:51,280
private school or
>> private academic school? We lic.

766
01:02:49,520 --> 01:02:54,400
» So you'd be licensed as a private
academic school.

767
01:02:52,319 --> 01:02:59,520
» Private AC that because that's how they
count. So like you have all bed like ADY

768
01:02:58,160 --> 01:03:03,200
that's a totally different program
that's a totally different license for

769
01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:09,040
the state.
>> My issue here is I would rather have

770
01:03:05,040 --> 01:03:13,599
seen this as a variance because my
problem with a use not provided for even

771
01:03:11,680 --> 01:03:19,839
though every case is decided on its own
merits it does set a precedence

772
01:03:17,359 --> 01:03:23,680
» and I'm not sure I want to go that
direction.

773
01:03:21,599 --> 01:03:28,400
I would much rather see this as a
variance

774
01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:32,119
um a use variance as opposed to a use
not provided for.

775
01:03:32,160 --> 01:03:38,160
» Okay.
So, in your view, this this would meet

776
01:03:36,079 --> 01:03:42,000
the ordinance's definition of just a
school.

777
01:03:39,839 --> 01:03:48,960
» Does it meet it completely? No. But I'd
rather see it go that way as than

778
01:03:45,039 --> 01:03:58,319
opposed to a use not provided for again
because especially in this uh CBC zone,

779
01:03:55,280 --> 01:04:03,039
it could open a can of worms down the
road that I'd rather not go down. Are

780
01:04:00,240 --> 01:04:07,359
there any conditions that would be um
that we could propose to the board

781
01:04:04,960 --> 01:04:13,680
keeping this as a use not provided for
and kind of trying to tailor it um in

782
01:04:10,799 --> 01:04:19,000
such a way to not open the door to uses
that maybe wouldn't be appropriate for

783
01:04:15,839 --> 01:04:19,000
the site.

784
01:04:21,760 --> 01:04:28,480
What do you think?
>> Well, okay. Maybe just a couple more

785
01:04:25,520 --> 01:04:32,720
questions about are students they're not
are they actually going to graduate from

786
01:04:30,480 --> 01:04:36,720
this school? Will there
>> they won't graduate? They'll graduate

787
01:04:34,480 --> 01:04:42,319
from their sending district. So, if
Hempfield sends five kids from us,

788
01:04:40,160 --> 01:04:45,039
they'll complete the program, but their
diplomas will read Hempfield School

789
01:04:44,160 --> 01:04:49,359
District.
>> So, if I can just jump in and please

790
01:04:46,880 --> 01:04:54,880
correct me if I'm wrong. This is kind of
a diversion program for students who

791
01:04:52,880 --> 01:05:00,640
aren't thriving in a traditional school
setting. Um, but it's not a school that

792
01:04:58,240 --> 01:05:04,960
offers, you know, programming where they
would get a diploma from it. It kind of

793
01:05:02,799 --> 01:05:10,000
offers them alternative
learning environments and the goal is

794
01:05:06,960 --> 01:05:14,640
ultimately for them to go back to their
normal home school district.

795
01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:19,440
» Yeah. I just want to clarify that when
you're talking about the autism

796
01:05:15,920 --> 01:05:24,640
population, the the need is more so the
the the ask of the districts like

797
01:05:21,839 --> 01:05:28,799
Hefield is sending us kids to York,
right? They you have Eastern Langster

798
01:05:26,880 --> 01:05:33,760
sending us kids to York around because
there's just not enough autism services

799
01:05:31,359 --> 01:05:37,680
and resources for districts and then by
sped law, you know, the district is

800
01:05:36,079 --> 01:05:42,160
responsible for that education of that
student. and stuff. So again, that this

801
01:05:40,000 --> 01:05:44,400
is the main reason we're here is just
because the dire need of of the

802
01:05:43,839 --> 01:05:47,200
services.
>> I I don't have an issue with your

803
01:05:45,920 --> 01:05:52,079
services, right?
>> Okay. I I have a nephew that's on the

804
01:05:49,520 --> 01:06:00,480
spectrum, so I I granted the service are
needed. My issue is how do we get here

805
01:05:55,920 --> 01:06:05,280
» and that's acceptable to everyone. Um
let me continue asking some questions

806
01:06:02,319 --> 01:06:08,880
here.
How many students are you going to have

807
01:06:07,599 --> 01:06:12,799
in the building at one time?
>> We can have Miss Henley come up and

808
01:06:10,480 --> 01:06:18,359
she's kind of our go-to for the the
programming and dayto-day on this site.

809
01:06:14,960 --> 01:06:18,359
» Okay, go ahead.

810
01:06:20,400 --> 01:06:25,520
» Do you want to just state your name and
title for the record?

811
01:06:24,319 --> 01:06:30,760
» If you're more comfortable, you can take
it out of the hole or you can lower it

812
01:06:26,880 --> 01:06:30,760
down a little bit. Either way I

813
01:06:32,000 --> 01:06:37,319
» I'll just you can just pull it down.
>> Yeah.

814
01:06:38,400 --> 01:06:45,680
» Um Marcus Henley
>> and your title?

815
01:06:41,760 --> 01:06:50,480
» My title is uh regional director.
>> So we just heard a lot of testimony from

816
01:06:47,520 --> 01:06:56,559
Mr. Espazito kind of big picture about
sessy what it does in Pennsylvania in

817
01:06:52,960 --> 01:07:02,480
the Lancaster area. Um, just to get this
on the record, how many students

818
01:06:59,039 --> 01:07:05,760
ballpark is Sassy proposing maximum at
this location?

819
01:07:03,520 --> 01:07:12,400
» Okay, so maximum at this location would
be 48 students. By law with students um

820
01:07:09,839 --> 01:07:18,799
with autism, we can only have eight
students in a classroom.

821
01:07:15,039 --> 01:07:25,599
Um, so we've to in total we're looking
at maybe six classrooms on down the line

822
01:07:23,200 --> 01:07:29,440
the first year with year one being only
two classrooms.

823
01:07:26,880 --> 01:07:33,839
» So I know Mr. Espazito mentioned that
typically if you have a group of

824
01:07:30,960 --> 01:07:38,480
students in or when you do um they're
there for the school day.

825
01:07:36,079 --> 01:07:44,480
» Yes. But the intent is not for them
necessarily to be only at Cessie as

826
01:07:41,760 --> 01:07:49,119
their school for years on end or long
term. Is that correct? That is correct.

827
01:07:46,559 --> 01:07:54,880
» So this is a diversionary program
basically where they can go for a period

828
01:07:52,319 --> 01:07:57,760
of time as needed to then be able to
hopefully be reintegrated into their

829
01:07:56,720 --> 01:07:59,760
home school district.
>> That's correct.

830
01:07:58,480 --> 01:08:05,039
» Okay.
And with those 48 maximum students, is

831
01:08:02,960 --> 01:08:09,520
there ever potentially a time when all
48 of them could be in the building at

832
01:08:06,720 --> 01:08:12,160
once?
>> Potentially.

833
01:08:10,319 --> 01:08:14,640
» Potentially. But the building is suited
for up to that many students in your

834
01:08:14,160 --> 01:08:18,719
opinion?
>> Yes. Okay.

835
01:08:16,239 --> 01:08:23,279
» And um do you have employees at the
facility or would you?

836
01:08:20,239 --> 01:08:30,640
» We would have employees. Um year one it
would be uh about 12 employees

837
01:08:27,679 --> 01:08:36,480
um with um if we get up to six
classrooms or when we get up to six

838
01:08:32,640 --> 01:08:40,719
classrooms we would add an additional um
four teachers and four teacher

839
01:08:39,120 --> 01:08:47,120
assistants.
So that would add an additional eight

840
01:08:44,560 --> 01:08:50,799
employees. So up to like 20 employees
>> and these are full-time employees.

841
01:08:48,400 --> 01:08:56,239
» These are fulltime full-time employees.
And I know we said this operates

842
01:08:52,719 --> 01:09:00,400
basically same as the school calendar.
Um, do you anticipate any evening or

843
01:08:59,040 --> 01:09:04,480
weekend hours?
>> No.

844
01:09:02,640 --> 01:09:07,920
» Um, one of the things that I'm sure the
board will have questions is we have to

845
01:09:06,480 --> 01:09:12,799
show that the property will be able to
handle um, anticipated traffic for the

846
01:09:10,319 --> 01:09:17,120
proposed use. Um, obviously this
property has existing access drives and

847
01:09:15,040 --> 01:09:22,239
a pretty large parking lot. Um, and it
was previously used for the daycare. Um,

848
01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:25,440
will students be bus to the property?
Are they typically driven by a parent?

849
01:09:24,400 --> 01:09:30,880
How does that work?
>> Typically, they're um bus or in a van.

850
01:09:28,560 --> 01:09:34,000
Most of the time it's a van. If it is a
school bus, it is the smaller size

851
01:09:32,719 --> 01:09:37,440
school buses.
>> And do the school buses park there all

852
01:09:35,679 --> 01:09:40,640
day or do they kind of drop off and pick
up?

853
01:09:37,920 --> 01:09:44,159
» They do not park. They just drop off and
pick up at the end of the day.

854
01:09:42,080 --> 01:09:48,719
» So, in your opinion, is the existing
parking lot adequate for this use?

855
01:09:47,040 --> 01:09:51,120
» Totally.
Yes.

856
01:09:49,440 --> 01:09:56,480
» Are there other questions from the board
for Miss Henley about um day-to-day

857
01:09:54,320 --> 01:10:00,040
activities, things like that?
>> Just out of curiosity,

858
01:10:00,080 --> 01:10:06,800
» what time what would your hours of
operation be?

859
01:10:03,760 --> 01:10:12,560
» Um the first staff would probably um
enter open the building at about 7:15

860
01:10:10,560 --> 01:10:21,679
um with the remainder of the staff
arriving by 7:30. Um buses will probably

861
01:10:16,640 --> 01:10:27,920
or vans will probably arrive at 7:45
and the drop off um process usually

862
01:10:25,679 --> 01:10:34,480
takes up until it probably would take
around till 8:15 8:30 at the latest and

863
01:10:32,400 --> 01:10:39,120
then students would you know have a
normal uh day. They come in, they have

864
01:10:36,880 --> 01:10:44,320
their morning classes, they have lunch,
they may have recess. Um, and then they

865
01:10:42,480 --> 01:10:50,640
have their afternoon classes, and they
prepare prepare for dismissal at 2:45.

866
01:10:47,760 --> 01:10:57,360
The first vans will arrive arrive around
then. And that process again will take

867
01:10:53,520 --> 01:11:02,320
probably until 3:15 at the latest and
then staff would stay until 3:30.

868
01:11:00,800 --> 01:11:05,520
» So by 4:00 everybody's out of the
building.

869
01:11:02,640 --> 01:11:07,840
» Yes.
And that is again I'm sorry Monday

870
01:11:06,960 --> 01:11:11,239
through Friday. Correct.
>> Monday through Friday

871
01:11:11,679 --> 01:11:14,679
» questions.

872
01:11:15,040 --> 01:11:19,800
No township having a question.

873
01:11:20,159 --> 01:11:29,360
» Yeah. So um just in in terms of
differentiating this from a traditional

874
01:11:26,000 --> 01:11:37,360
school um so how
um how often does the the group of kids

875
01:11:33,679 --> 01:11:41,440
sort of I mean turnover how how
I guess like how what's the percentage

876
01:11:39,679 --> 01:11:47,080
of kids actually do get reintegrated
back into their schools or a rough

877
01:11:44,080 --> 01:11:47,080
estimate?

878
01:11:48,000 --> 01:11:58,719
Yeah, ES would be more they would uh it
would be more turnover for them. Um ES

879
01:11:55,120 --> 01:12:04,480
is emotional support students. Um and
generally they stay with us about a year

880
01:12:02,239 --> 01:12:08,080
maybe two.
Usually when they get to us they do stay

881
01:12:06,320 --> 01:12:13,440
for the entire school year. It's not
like midyear transitions.

882
01:12:11,120 --> 01:12:21,360
And then the autistic population, um,
they would stay a a lot longer,

883
01:12:16,960 --> 01:12:26,800
sometimes three, sometimes four years.
Okay. And I'm not sure if you're

884
01:12:24,880 --> 01:12:32,239
familiar with uh I know there's another
there's a school in I think Mount Joy

885
01:12:28,880 --> 01:12:34,800
Janice School and um I'm not sure if
you're familiar with that one.

886
01:12:34,400 --> 01:12:37,840
» No.
>> Okay. Well, then you wouldn't be able to

887
01:12:36,000 --> 01:12:42,159
answer. I was just going to ask how it
might differ from that school because

888
01:12:39,520 --> 01:12:48,000
I'm pretty sure that considered school
but okay

889
01:12:45,520 --> 01:12:50,880
and you will have emotional support and
autistic population at this school

890
01:12:50,239 --> 01:12:53,880
» correct
>> okay

891
01:12:56,719 --> 01:13:05,000
thank you
anybody in the audience have a qu

892
01:13:01,280 --> 01:13:05,000
question for the witness

893
01:13:06,480 --> 01:13:15,120
» um when we're talking about the
different what are the ages of these

894
01:13:09,679 --> 01:13:22,480
kids a beyond elementary um is it just
>> so our PAS um application went in as a

895
01:13:19,360 --> 01:13:26,920
first through 12th grade population.
>> Yes.

896
01:13:23,040 --> 01:13:26,920
» So it's all okay.

897
01:13:30,000 --> 01:13:37,360
» Just uh
for your information there are two cases

898
01:13:34,880 --> 01:13:42,239
associated with this property. Yes, I
did provide one of the cases which um

899
01:13:39,920 --> 01:13:46,239
your zoning officer and manager kindly
went to your paper records and dug out

900
01:13:44,640 --> 01:13:49,679
for me, but I don't believe we could
locate a paper copy of the one that

901
01:13:48,640 --> 01:13:56,000
preceded that one.
>> 1079, which was the one that preceded

902
01:13:52,159 --> 01:13:59,120
the one that was you noted was a deni
denial anyway. So that had nothing.

903
01:13:58,719 --> 01:14:05,120
» Sure.
>> Your applicant is aware that everything

904
01:14:01,280 --> 01:14:10,640
on case number 1111 is still valid at
this point.

905
01:14:07,679 --> 01:14:16,320
Um who
and one one of the things reading the

906
01:14:12,400 --> 01:14:19,600
previous uh decisions is
when did Estelle Properties take

907
01:14:18,080 --> 01:14:26,120
ownership of this because I thought this
was a partnership down the road

908
01:14:22,159 --> 01:14:26,120
especially from case 1111

909
01:14:26,640 --> 01:14:32,400
» over in 18 2018.
>> Okay.

910
01:14:30,640 --> 01:14:39,280
» Bought it. Chester Book was in it at
that time and they consolidated and

911
01:14:35,920 --> 01:14:42,960
So her willing to give it up for
somebody else to come in.

912
01:14:40,560 --> 01:14:46,199
» Okay.
Thank you.

913
01:14:46,480 --> 01:14:52,800
Anything else
you wish to add?

914
01:14:49,600 --> 01:14:55,840
» No, not at this time.
>> Okay. I would like to go off the uh

915
01:14:54,640 --> 01:15:03,360
record for a minute and have a
discussion with our solicitor here.

916
01:14:59,600 --> 01:15:05,440
» All right. We'll be back on the record.
I have two additional questions.

917
01:15:04,880 --> 01:15:11,080
» Sure.
>> One, and this is going to be one of your

918
01:15:07,600 --> 01:15:11,080
witnesses here.

919
01:15:11,360 --> 01:15:18,800
» When you have a student that's in 12th
grade, he's ready to graduate. Who makes

920
01:15:16,719 --> 01:15:22,400
the determination whether he graduates?
You or the school district?

921
01:15:21,120 --> 01:15:27,920
» You collaborate with
>> collaborate. Okay.

922
01:15:23,760 --> 01:15:32,000
» So, again, and it's the IEP that also
IEP special education.

923
01:15:30,000 --> 01:15:37,880
» Okay.
Second question would be for the

924
01:15:33,760 --> 01:15:37,880
representative of the property owner.

925
01:15:40,960 --> 01:15:48,880
One of the conditions if we approve this
that we would like to put on here is is

926
01:15:45,920 --> 01:15:54,080
if um
specialized education system

927
01:15:51,280 --> 01:15:58,320
incorporated lease
that's it. It can't be used for any

928
01:15:56,320 --> 01:16:02,239
other
type of same type of thing unless they

929
01:16:00,320 --> 01:16:05,199
come in and reapply.
>> Are you acceptable to that?

930
01:16:03,760 --> 01:16:07,679
» I have a problem with that.
>> Okay,

931
01:16:06,640 --> 01:16:12,480
» that's all good.
>> All right. May too. Um

932
01:16:10,560 --> 01:16:17,760
I was just talking with your your
township manager over um over the Zoom

933
01:16:15,520 --> 01:16:21,679
and one of the things we had discussed
if the board is kind of leaning toward

934
01:16:20,000 --> 01:16:25,920
looking at this as a school that we
could kind of propose as a middle ground

935
01:16:23,520 --> 01:16:32,000
here is we would ask that the board
tables this um for this meeting and at

936
01:16:29,840 --> 01:16:37,840
the next meeting we would propose to
amend our application

937
01:16:34,080 --> 01:16:41,760
um to pose this as a use variance for a
school.

938
01:16:38,960 --> 01:16:46,000
» This board is willing to grant your
special exception request

939
01:16:44,560 --> 01:16:50,000
with the condition
>> with the condition as stated

940
01:16:47,440 --> 01:16:54,560
» as stated. And we want to move this
forward because if you go

941
01:16:53,040 --> 01:16:58,480
as a school, you're going to need to
request a variance which is going to

942
01:16:56,400 --> 01:17:02,320
require you to
>> uh re reapply because it's such a change

943
01:17:00,800 --> 01:17:04,719
in right what you're asking.
>> Right.

944
01:17:03,120 --> 01:17:08,560
» Well, I appreciate you being willing to
to work with us on this.

945
01:17:06,640 --> 01:17:10,800
» So, In that case, if you have nothing
else,

946
01:17:09,199 --> 01:17:19,840
» yeah, that's all we had planned.
>> We will close testimony in case 2051.

947
01:17:14,080 --> 01:17:27,840
Take administrative notice of cases 1051
or I'm not sorry, 1079 and case 1111 and

948
01:17:25,360 --> 01:17:32,480
applicants exhibit number one, which is
the floor plan.

949
01:17:30,239 --> 01:17:37,840
» Mr. Chairman, just one qu one more
question. What what was uh Mr. Espazito,

950
01:17:35,120 --> 01:17:42,560
what was your title?
vice president.

951
01:17:38,800 --> 01:17:46,199
» Okay. All right. Thank you.
>> Do I have a motion?

952
01:17:47,840 --> 01:17:55,840
» Which one? [clears throat]
>> To approve the special exception.

953
01:17:52,239 --> 01:18:02,080
» Mr. Chairman, case number 25501,
Specialized Education Services

954
01:17:58,560 --> 01:18:09,800
Incorporated at 808 Estelle Drive. I
move that we

955
01:18:04,159 --> 01:18:09,800
approve the variance for section 270-1.9

956
01:18:10,400 --> 01:18:22,320
C for use not provided for as a use for
a special education facility

957
01:18:18,159 --> 01:18:29,679
with the conditions that upon
exiting of this property um this

958
01:18:26,480 --> 01:18:36,400
approval will be null and void
and not provided by the next tenants.

959
01:18:35,199 --> 01:18:41,840
» Okay.
>> And our net our conditional conditions,

960
01:18:39,520 --> 01:18:44,960
» our standard conditions. I also have one
additional

961
01:18:43,360 --> 01:18:51,199
condition.
Um the applicant um should obtain all

962
01:18:48,239 --> 01:18:56,480
state permits required
and necessary to operate and submit

963
01:18:53,520 --> 01:19:01,120
copies to the township. And if you have
to renew them, any renewals would have

964
01:18:58,960 --> 01:19:05,920
to go to the township. Also,
>> what can you restate that one?

965
01:19:04,080 --> 01:19:10,400
» Applicants should obtain all state
permits and approvals necessary to

966
01:19:08,400 --> 01:19:14,640
operate and submit copies to the
township and as they renew, they would

967
01:19:12,960 --> 01:19:21,304
need to be submitted also to the
township. Okay.

968
01:19:18,159 --> 01:19:21,304
Um, [clears throat]

969
01:19:22,080 --> 01:19:30,320
case number 201, the request of
Specialized Education Services

970
01:19:27,280 --> 01:19:37,280
Incorporated for property located at 808
Estelle Drive in Langster, PA 17601.

971
01:19:34,320 --> 01:19:42,719
Motion to grant their special exception
to section 270-1.9C

972
01:19:40,480 --> 01:19:50,400
for use not provided for to allow them
to operate a educational school for

973
01:19:47,199 --> 01:19:57,840
special special education facility with
the following conditions. One if

974
01:19:53,679 --> 01:20:02,560
specialized education system leaves the
uh special exception becomes null and

975
01:20:00,560 --> 01:20:08,080
void.
two, our standard conditions, and three,

976
01:20:05,920 --> 01:20:12,719
the applicant will submit shall obtain
all state permits and approvals

977
01:20:09,840 --> 01:20:18,800
necessary to operate and submit copies
to the township and the and the renewals

978
01:20:15,280 --> 01:20:20,400
of those uh approvals.
Is that your motion?

979
01:20:19,840 --> 01:20:22,800
» Yes, sir.
>> Do I have a second?

980
01:20:21,440 --> 01:20:27,719
» I'll second it.
>> Motion and a second. Any discussion?

981
01:20:28,640 --> 01:20:34,960
» I'll say something here. I'll make sure
I'll happy.

982
01:20:31,440 --> 01:20:40,239
» Yeah. Um, I I think this is a definitely
a needed here in in the county and to

983
01:20:38,239 --> 01:20:46,880
have it here in the township is great.
Um, again, it was just trying to get the

984
01:20:43,840 --> 01:20:51,440
approvals that we I have an issue with
and uh so hopefully we can move on. You

985
01:20:49,360 --> 01:20:56,800
get your approvals and everything will
move forward.

986
01:20:53,520 --> 01:20:58,560
There's no other discussion. Mr. Kalis,
how do you vote?

987
01:20:57,440 --> 01:21:01,440
» In favor,
>> Mr. Loose

988
01:20:59,360 --> 01:21:04,080
» in favor. I will also vote in favor.
Your special exception request has been

989
01:21:03,280 --> 01:21:08,800
granted.
>> Thank you. Thanks for your time.

990
01:21:06,320 --> 01:21:12,480
» Thank you. Gentlemen,
my understanding is we do have a case

991
01:21:10,719 --> 01:21:14,640
for the September meeting. Is that
correct, Army?

992
01:21:13,440 --> 01:21:19,840
» That's correct.
>> And that would be

993
01:21:16,400 --> 01:21:25,239
» that'll be on September
21st.

994
01:21:20,640 --> 01:21:25,239
» 21st. Cheryl, you're available.

995
01:21:25,600 --> 01:21:30,996
» Oh, you can zoom in.
>> You zoom in.

996
01:21:28,976 --> 01:21:30,996
» [laughter]

997
01:21:31,520 --> 01:21:36,640
» Nathan, are you available?
>> Not if you're on vacation. Available.

998
01:21:34,640 --> 01:21:40,400
» Are you available? I'm available.
>> And you're going to check with Mr. Kyle,

999
01:21:38,640 --> 01:21:44,080
make sure he's available. Correct.
>> I'll send out that email asking for

1000
01:21:42,960 --> 01:21:49,600
attendance. Okay.
>> That case, this meeting is adjourned. We

1001
01:21:46,000 --> 01:21:49,600
» got to accept these next