1 00:00:28,140 --> 00:00:34,060 Welcome back to the African diaspora experience. Living narratives from Greenberg. I am Tina 2 00:00:34,060 --> 00:00:39,460 P. Dinkins, representing the Department of Community Resources. And our guest today is 3 00:00:39,460 --> 00:00:47,880 Mr. James Jackson, Biff Henderson, Jr. I left out the, I remember the Jackson and the Jr. 4 00:00:48,160 --> 00:00:48,780 That's great, all right. 5 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:55,060 Lovingly known here in Greenberg as Biff Henderson. So I have to ask you, how did you become 6 00:00:55,060 --> 00:00:56,160 known as Biff? 7 00:00:56,160 --> 00:01:03,540 Oh, interesting. My life's journey started in the 40s, 1940s, in Durham, North Carolina, 8 00:01:04,320 --> 00:01:11,120 Jim Crow, segregated south. I have one sister that's older than I am by five or six years, 9 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:18,100 but a friend of my mother's had a dream that she had a kid named Biff. So it's not a 10 00:01:18,100 --> 00:01:24,000 showbiz thing, it's an actual nickname that was given to me when I was born. My mother 11 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:30,700 promised her that when she had another kid, that she wouldn't nickname the kid Vif, Boy 12 00:01:30,700 --> 00:01:32,340 or Girl, and that's me. 13 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:33,360 And she stuck to it. 14 00:01:33,540 --> 00:01:34,100 What a great friend. 15 00:01:34,300 --> 00:01:34,500 Right. 16 00:01:35,140 --> 00:01:40,020 So you grew up in Durham, North Carolina, segregated Jim Crow, South, you said. 17 00:01:40,340 --> 00:01:40,720 Absolutely. 18 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:44,840 As a young black male, what was that like growing up in the segregated South? 19 00:01:45,700 --> 00:01:47,740 Separate but equal is what they called it. 20 00:01:48,500 --> 00:01:53,260 But having said that it was basically true in Durham, it was not like living in 21 00:01:53,260 --> 00:01:59,520 the country, or in the suburbs, or someplace outside of a major city. 22 00:02:00,300 --> 00:02:07,960 And Durham was definitely progressive, and a city of maybe 40,000 people at the time, 23 00:02:08,660 --> 00:02:11,720 the third or fourth largest city in the state of North Carolina. 24 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:20,560 And growing up there, in my situation, I was very humbled about it and blessed because 25 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:27,640 I was brought up in basically a very upper middle-class environment. My parents did very 26 00:02:27,640 --> 00:02:36,520 well for themselves. Durham actually was progressive for blacks and everything was basically available. 27 00:02:37,020 --> 00:02:43,120 The largest black-owned and operated business in the world at that time was located in 28 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:43,660 Mutual. 29 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:44,280 Yes. 30 00:02:44,860 --> 00:02:50,280 And it was also a bank, Mechanics and Farmers Bank, Mutual Savings and Loan. 31 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:59,720 Many, many businesses, but the equal part of this is there was one major high school 32 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,020 for blacks, one major high school for whites. 33 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:08,700 My high school was Hillside, Durham High was for whites then in accounting. 34 00:03:08,700 --> 00:03:16,960 morning, they had two or three county schools that basically went from 1st to 12th grade. 35 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:23,940 And Northern and Southern High for Whites, they had Merrick Moore and Merrick Moore were 36 00:03:23,940 --> 00:03:29,940 two of the, was named after two of the founders of Narco-Armugia, Aaron Moore and John 37 00:03:29,940 --> 00:03:31,700 Merritt along with C. C. Spaulder. 38 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:42,380 And having said that, every school that I attended in Durham, from elementary school straight 39 00:03:42,380 --> 00:03:49,500 through high school, was named after someone black, okay? 40 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:53,720 It was a book of T. Washington, and like that, it was usually somebody local. 41 00:03:54,380 --> 00:03:59,680 Like W. G. Pearson in the fifth grade, I went to C. C. Spall in elementary school, 42 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:10,800 was another one of the founders of North Carolina Mutual and the banks. And that went straight 43 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:16,820 through high school. So, you know, it was separate equal. I mean, there was one major 44 00:04:16,820 --> 00:04:27,040 hotel for whites, one for blacks, and three theaters each, including one drive-in theater. 45 00:04:27,700 --> 00:04:36,860 Blacks could go to the White Theatres, they had to go up in the balcony, which were the 46 00:04:36,860 --> 00:04:39,880 best seats in the theater, and it really worked. 47 00:04:40,460 --> 00:04:47,140 And you know, we had fun with them throwing popcorn down there, or whatever, you know. 48 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:48,440 I mean, they were the best seats. 49 00:04:48,900 --> 00:04:52,880 And they could come over to our theaters, but they had to sit over there. 50 00:04:53,220 --> 00:04:55,060 It was definitely separate. 51 00:04:55,060 --> 00:05:01,720 And it was weird because I grew up in an environment that was totally, you were aware of everything 52 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:12,000 and expected, a lot was expected of you, regardless of your social or economic background, who 53 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:17,380 have and have nots, people were unified to a degree, I'm speaking of Durham, okay, 54 00:05:17,380 --> 00:05:24,860 that you know everything was you know there and available and exposed to 55 00:05:24,860 --> 00:05:28,780 whoever you were still held to the highest standard yes and not because of 56 00:05:28,780 --> 00:05:32,980 my parents but because that's that was there that was the community that was 57 00:05:32,980 --> 00:05:37,770 the way it was and you know it's a black college in Durham North Carolina 58 00:05:37,770 --> 00:05:47,830 college and and all that you know so that's the way it was I mean I you know 59 00:05:48,390 --> 00:05:54,510 in elementary school started around 8 30 in the morning 9 o'clock we would meet 60 00:05:54,510 --> 00:06:02,530 in the auditorium of the school and we would pledge allegiance to the flag and 61 00:06:03,130 --> 00:06:06,950 sing the Black National Anthem lift the reward and lift the rewards and sing 62 00:06:06,950 --> 00:06:13,030 That was every day and this is in the 1950s. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely 63 00:06:13,030 --> 00:06:17,360 And probably before before I started and having said that you know 64 00:06:18,030 --> 00:06:24,790 So I know the the entire song all four verses where as I got older and met other people 65 00:06:25,390 --> 00:06:28,750 For some reason they didn't they didn't realize. Well, yeah 66 00:06:28,750 --> 00:06:33,610 I mean when you talk about the segregate itself you had in in many ways a very privileged 67 00:06:33,610 --> 00:06:40,270 upbringing because many people didn't experience separate but equal as actually separate and 68 00:06:40,270 --> 00:06:40,730 equal. 69 00:06:41,290 --> 00:06:47,190 Well, I can't honestly say if it was equal. 70 00:06:47,590 --> 00:06:54,410 I know everything, the numbers were equal, but I had nothing to compare to. 71 00:06:54,470 --> 00:06:57,770 Did you hang out with other white teens? 72 00:06:58,010 --> 00:06:58,810 Did you have white friends? 73 00:06:59,170 --> 00:06:59,230 I never knew it. 74 00:06:59,230 --> 00:06:59,870 You never knew it well. 75 00:07:00,270 --> 00:07:01,410 No reason to. 76 00:07:02,230 --> 00:07:03,350 No reason to. 77 00:07:03,350 --> 00:07:08,850 I mean you know I think they used guys used to come across and want to compete in 78 00:07:08,850 --> 00:07:12,450 maybe some sports and everything and and they would never win because we couldn't 79 00:07:12,450 --> 00:07:13,270 allow that to happen. 80 00:07:15,590 --> 00:07:19,490 I mean that's the truth yeah I don't recall you know but 81 00:07:19,490 --> 00:07:24,630 we had boys clubs, white, white MCAs, everything that you can imagine there 82 00:07:24,630 --> 00:07:32,810 were like supermarkets I mean you name it drug stores and definitely churches 83 00:07:32,810 --> 00:07:33,330 Yes. 84 00:07:33,610 --> 00:07:34,370 That type of thing. 85 00:07:35,230 --> 00:07:39,510 You know, I mentioned to a lot of people that I grew up in a city where there was actually 86 00:07:39,510 --> 00:07:40,170 a boys club. 87 00:07:40,230 --> 00:07:42,130 They say, you had a boys club, you know. 88 00:07:42,330 --> 00:07:42,870 I say, yep. 89 00:07:43,370 --> 00:07:44,310 John Avery Boys Club. 90 00:07:44,350 --> 00:07:45,190 For a young black man. 91 00:07:45,910 --> 00:07:46,310 Yeah. 92 00:07:46,470 --> 00:07:49,610 And it was actually named after a black person, you know. 93 00:07:50,210 --> 00:07:55,390 And so the identity in the relationship was there, you know. 94 00:07:55,430 --> 00:08:00,250 I never felt, yeah, I knew segregation was there. 95 00:08:00,250 --> 00:08:08,270 I knew Jim Crow existed but you know it was it was that's the way it was I heard 96 00:08:08,270 --> 00:08:13,270 that one of your childhood friends was the very very famous Arthur Ashe oh yes 97 00:08:13,270 --> 00:08:17,290 how did you meet Arthur Ashe was that high school elementary school well we 98 00:08:17,290 --> 00:08:22,510 actually I played tennis okay growing up I was a pretty serious tennis player 99 00:08:23,110 --> 00:08:29,850 And at that time, down in Durham, blacks had actual tennis clubs. 100 00:08:30,070 --> 00:08:32,450 I mean, I'm not talking about a group of people meeting in the park. 101 00:08:32,650 --> 00:08:33,930 I'm talking about building. 102 00:08:34,110 --> 00:08:34,970 A whole tennis club. 103 00:08:35,150 --> 00:08:36,650 Yeah, an actual tennis club. 104 00:08:37,210 --> 00:08:41,910 And at that time, there was the ATA, which was the American Tennis Association, which 105 00:08:41,910 --> 00:08:42,970 was basically black. 106 00:08:43,790 --> 00:08:49,870 And the USLTA, which was the United States Law and Tennis Association, which was 107 00:08:49,870 --> 00:08:50,170 white. 108 00:08:50,170 --> 00:08:56,890 When I was coming along, Althea Gibson sort of had already broken the coal line. 109 00:08:57,550 --> 00:08:59,170 There were a lot of tournaments all over the country. 110 00:08:59,390 --> 00:09:01,390 The A.T. was a really big deal. 111 00:09:02,050 --> 00:09:06,050 I mean, we'd go to tournaments and there were a lot of entries. 112 00:09:07,090 --> 00:09:11,650 But Ash, what happened, there was a lady in Durham named Mrs. B.A.J. with it. 113 00:09:12,370 --> 00:09:15,650 And she was very active in the community. 114 00:09:15,650 --> 00:09:24,130 She worked for Norco Immune to Life Insurance Company as a treasurer and she was big into 115 00:09:24,130 --> 00:09:32,730 tennis from what I understand very instrumental in Althea's career along with a man named 116 00:09:32,730 --> 00:09:35,990 Dr. Hubert Eaton from Wilmington, North Carolina. 117 00:09:37,330 --> 00:09:41,350 At any rate, I was like about five, maybe six or seven years old, I was fling. 118 00:09:42,510 --> 00:09:49,110 And Mrs. Whittitt called my parents and asked if this young man from Richmond could stay 119 00:09:49,110 --> 00:09:49,790 at our house. 120 00:09:50,170 --> 00:09:51,410 And he was competing in the tournament. 121 00:09:54,550 --> 00:09:57,750 And yes, my parents said, yeah, and it was Ash. 122 00:09:58,470 --> 00:10:00,670 And so we became friends that way. 123 00:10:01,270 --> 00:10:04,530 And he was a little hitter this time in the game and another thing, very bright 124 00:10:04,530 --> 00:10:05,330 guy. 125 00:10:06,130 --> 00:10:09,190 And I won my first trophy with him. 126 00:10:09,310 --> 00:10:09,890 Oh, wow. 127 00:10:11,310 --> 00:10:19,770 And what happened was we were sitting around the dinner table and Ash said that he wanted 128 00:10:19,770 --> 00:10:23,730 to play doubles in the tournament, but he didn't have a partner. 129 00:10:24,350 --> 00:10:26,990 So my parents said, well, why don't you take this? 130 00:10:27,490 --> 00:10:31,010 And if he was still living, he may be a year older than I am, okay? 131 00:10:32,150 --> 00:10:39,890 So the three divisions in the ATA were the 12 and under, year olds, 13 and 15 and 15 and 18. 132 00:10:40,650 --> 00:10:41,950 And we were in the 12 and under. 133 00:10:43,790 --> 00:10:46,190 And he said, oh, I'll do that. 134 00:10:46,710 --> 00:10:48,350 And so I won my first trophy. 135 00:10:48,910 --> 00:10:50,150 He won the first trophy. 136 00:10:50,750 --> 00:10:52,170 I was just his partner. 137 00:10:53,710 --> 00:10:55,390 He actually won the trophy. 138 00:10:55,570 --> 00:10:56,210 That's incredible. 139 00:10:56,530 --> 00:10:57,250 Yeah, he was that good. 140 00:10:57,350 --> 00:11:00,450 And then we were made friends all the way up until his death actually. 141 00:11:01,290 --> 00:11:05,750 So what was it like watching him soar and become who he became in the tennis world? 142 00:11:05,830 --> 00:11:09,850 I mean, it was expected. I mean, there were a lot of good black tennis players out there, 143 00:11:09,910 --> 00:11:15,550 but you know, his story is his story. And it's fair. I mean, he was ready for that. 144 00:11:15,690 --> 00:11:19,430 And it wasn't an easy task, but he succeeded at that. 145 00:11:19,730 --> 00:11:21,890 And I think he would have succeeded at anything that he did. 146 00:11:22,170 --> 00:11:24,770 And he did. He was just that kind of guy. Kind of like someone else we know. 147 00:11:24,910 --> 00:11:30,170 You went to one of the greatest historically black colleges in the country. 148 00:11:30,170 --> 00:11:37,610 Hampton University by Alma Mater. I wonder why you say it was so good. What 149 00:11:37,610 --> 00:11:41,470 guided you to Hampton, Virginia? What guided you to that particular school? 150 00:11:41,670 --> 00:11:45,810 Because it sounds like you were incredibly bright, very well involved. Yes, 151 00:11:46,010 --> 00:11:49,510 I'm listening to you. You won a trophy with Arthur Ashe. What made you pick 152 00:11:49,510 --> 00:11:54,050 Hampton University to continue your education? It wasn't much of a choice. 153 00:11:54,410 --> 00:11:59,610 I mean it was a choice I had. I mean my father, everybody in my family, attended 154 00:11:59,610 --> 00:12:05,250 to Hampton just about family tradition yeah undergrad my father actually was the 155 00:12:05,250 --> 00:12:10,530 first black member of the trustee boy at Hampton and he was the first black 156 00:12:10,530 --> 00:12:15,250 chairman of the trustee boy at Hampton my sister had attended Hampton other 157 00:12:15,250 --> 00:12:23,210 relatives and so I went after high school to pre-college at Hampton and I 158 00:12:23,730 --> 00:12:27,450 actually didn't attend my first year my freshman year I went to Tennessee State 159 00:12:27,450 --> 00:12:37,570 on the tennis offer, because they were trying to get a tennis program going. And I went 160 00:12:38,350 --> 00:12:44,350 out there and I enjoyed it. I had an uncle who was working at Fiske, teaching at Fiske 161 00:12:44,350 --> 00:12:50,810 who eventually became a president at Clark College in Atlanta. But anyway, I transferred 162 00:12:50,810 --> 00:12:58,310 back to Hampton at the end of my freshman year at Tennessee State. I had gone to pre-college 163 00:12:58,310 --> 00:13:06,350 the year before and that was the summer, well that was the summer of 1963. I had been involved 164 00:13:06,350 --> 00:13:11,570 very heavily in the Civil Rights Movement, protesting down south. So I had gone to the 165 00:13:11,570 --> 00:13:18,710 March on Washington in 1963. And then I went back to Hampton and when I got there, 166 00:13:18,710 --> 00:13:23,610 the tennis coach wanted me to come out for the team and I did I went out for a 167 00:13:23,610 --> 00:13:30,230 few days and I just had hit a wall I played too much and so I dropped it for 168 00:13:30,230 --> 00:13:35,010 quite a few years but how I was convinced to go to Hampton it was like 169 00:13:35,010 --> 00:13:40,930 one of those things that to a degree I guess you could say family tradition 170 00:13:40,930 --> 00:13:46,190 but also I kind of grew up on the campus yeah so having said that you 171 00:13:47,830 --> 00:13:53,030 You know, people said to me, you know, you know, your legacy with Hampton, you know, 172 00:13:53,190 --> 00:13:54,110 this than the other. 173 00:13:55,690 --> 00:14:01,490 And it's a good school, conducive for studying, make friends for life, and a lot of good stuff. 174 00:14:01,510 --> 00:14:02,130 Oh, that is true. 175 00:14:02,310 --> 00:14:04,970 You are actually one of the reasons I chose to go to Yale University. 176 00:14:04,970 --> 00:14:05,090 Oh, is that right? 177 00:14:05,470 --> 00:14:05,810 Yes. 178 00:14:05,990 --> 00:14:06,930 You and Ted Jones. 179 00:14:07,130 --> 00:14:07,730 Yes, of course. 180 00:14:08,150 --> 00:14:09,750 Well, I'm sure you don't regret it. 181 00:14:09,910 --> 00:14:10,130 I hope so. 182 00:14:10,230 --> 00:14:10,750 I do not. 183 00:14:11,070 --> 00:14:11,270 Never will. 184 00:14:11,330 --> 00:14:13,530 You shouldn't tell me about all the fun when we walk around. 185 00:14:13,530 --> 00:14:16,850 It was that too, we learned a lot, it was a lot of fun. 186 00:14:17,750 --> 00:14:23,270 So you grew up in this segregated cell and then went to an HBCU and then you served in 187 00:14:23,270 --> 00:14:24,570 Vietnam, thank you for your service. 188 00:14:25,450 --> 00:14:26,390 I was drafted. 189 00:14:26,950 --> 00:14:27,290 Yeah. 190 00:14:27,470 --> 00:14:27,750 Okay. 191 00:14:28,110 --> 00:14:30,190 So here, so Vietnam was... 192 00:14:30,190 --> 00:14:30,290 Put you up. 193 00:14:30,290 --> 00:14:30,510 Put you up. 194 00:14:32,970 --> 00:14:38,350 Vietnam was the first war, I believe, where black troops and white troops were 195 00:14:38,350 --> 00:14:40,450 not segregated. 196 00:14:41,790 --> 00:14:44,370 You know, maybe I'm learning something I didn't know. 197 00:14:44,430 --> 00:14:49,170 Okay, so I was going to ask you, because you talked very much about growing up very separate. 198 00:14:50,410 --> 00:14:53,750 And HBCUs are historically black colleges and universities. 199 00:14:54,110 --> 00:14:59,690 So when you were deployed and were serving in Vietnam, I would imagine you were less separate. 200 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:05,260 Well, let's back up for a second here. Let's understand something. Another reason I may have 201 00:15:05,260 --> 00:15:11,540 gone to Hampton probably did. See, I was never in a classroom with anyone white, and I never 202 00:15:11,540 --> 00:15:18,880 had a white instructor all the way through college. I was never in the minority, basically. 203 00:15:20,220 --> 00:15:23,700 So when they were talking about things like entitlement and everything, I thought they 204 00:15:23,700 --> 00:15:24,480 were talking about me. 205 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:30,900 I didn't realize that you were, am I not right? 206 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:40,540 I knew I was being discriminated against, but I had never been in... Everything that I had 207 00:15:40,540 --> 00:15:49,640 experienced to that point and beyond was made sure that it happened. Teachers always 208 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:55,980 were looking out for everybody, everything. I mean, you know, if something happened in 209 00:15:55,980 --> 00:15:56,900 Durham, for instance, 210 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,320 you know, there were black detectives, black police officers and 211 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:06,360 everything, and if you did anything, anything happened. Your parents knew about it before 212 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:10,260 you got home, and that's not a joke. I mean, they really did. They, well, get your 213 00:16:10,260 --> 00:16:17,160 own switch, whatever you want, you know. And, you know, having said that, I just 214 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:19,840 This wasn't in that situation, if that was a question. 215 00:16:20,060 --> 00:16:21,800 Well, it's a different experience. 216 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:27,040 So when you get to Vietnam, are you fighting alongside white soldiers? 217 00:16:27,660 --> 00:16:33,280 So this is the first time, is this the first time, would you say, in your life that you 218 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,100 weren't separate from them? 219 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:35,480 Well, no, no. 220 00:16:36,100 --> 00:16:45,000 At that point, yes, I had met a few white friends, and so I knew some people. 221 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:51,820 people. But to that degree, yeah, probably, you know, people that I felt I could trust. 222 00:16:52,880 --> 00:17:02,740 And I felt comfortable around. Vietnam was a different experience. I was drafted in 1968, 223 00:17:03,500 --> 00:17:13,140 and it was a situation where I was doing the Tet Offensive, which they say was the 224 00:17:13,140 --> 00:17:19,220 time. I was an older guy. I had been to college. I was 21, 22. Most of the guys over there were 225 00:17:20,020 --> 00:17:28,060 18, 19. I mean, I learned things that I did not need to know and wish I didn't know to some degree. 226 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:34,160 I'm glad, and in the other ways I'm glad I know. I remember the first thing that was said 227 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:41,240 to us was about 50 of us in a place bigger than this whole building. I'll never forget what this 228 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:48,480 big sergeant came in there and said, and this is what he said, he said, gentlemen, welcome 229 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:54,740 to the Republic of South Vietnam where life has no value except to the one that owns it. 230 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:57,860 And that's the hard one to swallow. 231 00:17:58,560 --> 00:17:59,200 He was right. 232 00:17:59,980 --> 00:18:03,940 I mean, it was the truth, but it's something you didn't need to know. 233 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:08,740 And then when you end up in a combat situation, in my case, it was rather scary. 234 00:18:08,740 --> 00:18:14,400 It's something that you do get used to, but it was a wake-up call. 235 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:21,360 And I wouldn't wish it on, you know, my worst enemy, but I survived, and there's a reason 236 00:18:21,360 --> 00:18:25,680 why I'm here for whatever that reason is, if I fulfill it. 237 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:38,080 And I did 13 and a half months over there, and when I came back home, they didn't recognize 238 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:43,920 Vietnam veteran, there's anything other than, I don't know how to, we weren't recognized. 239 00:18:44,500 --> 00:18:51,120 There was nothing, nothing there, you know, and then when, you know, I started my professional 240 00:18:51,120 --> 00:18:55,920 career after that and I took advantage of the G.I. Bill back to some education points 241 00:18:56,450 --> 00:19:01,880 and I started taking courses in New York City down at Pace University by City Hall 242 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:02,400 in Manhattan. 243 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:09,080 And that was the first time I was up in a classroom with more whites than me. 244 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:10,880 You know, like three of us in there. 245 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:16,360 Did serving in Vietnam with white soldiers change your view on race relations or race 246 00:19:16,360 --> 00:19:16,760 politics? 247 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:17,340 Yeah. 248 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:18,340 I guess it may have. 249 00:19:18,580 --> 00:19:19,480 I just don't know. 250 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:24,000 You know, I looked at humans as humans and I still do. 251 00:19:24,700 --> 00:19:27,640 If a person has their hang-ups, that's their problem. 252 00:19:28,180 --> 00:19:28,660 That's not mine. 253 00:19:29,220 --> 00:19:29,920 That's not my problem. 254 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:35,680 I'm going to treat you the way I want to treat you and that's the way it is. 255 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:40,100 So you go from being separate as a child to being around white people in the war and then 256 00:19:40,100 --> 00:19:42,840 you said when you got out and you went to school that was your first time in the classroom. 257 00:19:43,300 --> 00:19:44,780 Did you feel like you had to adapt? 258 00:19:45,140 --> 00:19:46,820 Did you feel like you had to? 259 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:51,400 Well there was some adapting to do like for instance when I was taking the course, had 260 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:55,000 a professor and there was three of us in the class, I mean in blacks. 261 00:19:55,420 --> 00:19:59,360 I just realized that we weren't being called on. 262 00:20:00,020 --> 00:20:00,420 Oh. 263 00:20:00,700 --> 00:20:02,040 Yeah, we weren't being called on. 264 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:02,880 Which is new for you. 265 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:03,680 Very new. 266 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:04,280 Which was very new. 267 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:04,580 Yes. 268 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:11,840 And after one class, I said to a couple of the guys, I said, we've got to speak up on 269 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:12,440 this one, man. 270 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:14,420 You know, this guy acts like we're not even here. 271 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:15,800 And we did. 272 00:20:16,300 --> 00:20:19,420 And I'm not going to call his name, I'm sure he's not living, but that's beside 273 00:20:19,420 --> 00:20:19,800 the point. 274 00:20:20,780 --> 00:20:27,140 And we brought it up to him, and he said that, he said, you know, I appreciate, he really 275 00:20:27,140 --> 00:20:27,900 appreciated it. 276 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:32,220 He said, because we weren't the first ones to bring that to his attention. 277 00:20:32,460 --> 00:20:32,580 Really? 278 00:20:32,820 --> 00:20:35,620 He said he had other students bring that to his attention. 279 00:20:36,300 --> 00:20:42,280 I said, yeah, we're not, it's like we're not even here, you know, and it didn't change 280 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:42,560 him. 281 00:20:43,100 --> 00:20:44,500 It didn't change after that? 282 00:20:45,120 --> 00:20:45,920 Oh boy. 283 00:20:46,140 --> 00:20:46,620 Okay. 284 00:20:46,620 --> 00:20:52,820 I mean, you know, I think he saw us occasionally, you know, whatever, but that didn't take away 285 00:20:52,820 --> 00:20:54,700 from the fact of what we were there to learn. 286 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:55,300 To learn, yeah. 287 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:55,660 Yeah. 288 00:20:55,800 --> 00:21:02,140 And so whatever he said, we were getting it anyway, you know, so it was, that was his 289 00:21:02,140 --> 00:21:02,860 loss, no doubt. 290 00:21:03,260 --> 00:21:04,400 You know, he didn't know what we knew. 291 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,820 And I don't know whether it changed my mind or attitude. 292 00:21:11,260 --> 00:21:12,420 I was growing up. 293 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:12,680 Yeah. 294 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:13,460 I was growing up. 295 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:14,780 It was a learning experience. 296 00:21:14,780 --> 00:21:22,200 So let's talk about David Letterman. How did you get from finishing your education credits 297 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:27,960 to being such a major part of the David Letterman experience? 298 00:21:28,460 --> 00:21:29,540 That's an interesting question. 299 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:37,020 I was working in Nashville after Vietnam for American Airlines 300 00:21:37,020 --> 00:21:45,840 airlines. And airlines didn't pay much money. And back in those days, in the late sixties, 301 00:21:45,940 --> 00:21:52,420 early seventies, you had to be earning at least $13,000 a year to get a credit card. 302 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:57,500 And I wasn't doing it. I had a Corford card, but you couldn't use it for personal use. 303 00:21:59,060 --> 00:22:04,060 So the credit card, I mean, so I wasn't making any money. 304 00:22:06,030 --> 00:22:13,780 I went on a job interview in New York, down in Rockefeller Center, with the Hertz Corporation. 305 00:22:16,340 --> 00:22:24,260 And this is back in the early 70s, and security was not an issue in builders. 306 00:22:24,260 --> 00:22:26,960 You could walk in and out of buildings, like it's nothing. 307 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:36,400 And I left the interview, going back to my hotel, and I'm walking down the card in 308 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:40,180 30 Rock, and I had to go to the bathroom real bad. 309 00:22:40,500 --> 00:22:41,480 This is a true story. 310 00:22:42,340 --> 00:22:49,440 And I asked someone where the bathroom was, and they told me to go to the second floor 311 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:51,760 and directed me to it. 312 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:58,780 So I'm in there doing my business, and I hear this very distinguished voice behind me, how 313 00:22:58,780 --> 00:22:59,860 are you today, young man? 314 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:06,320 The very distinguished little man with his bow tie on, and his broom, and his dust 315 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:06,640 fan. 316 00:23:07,300 --> 00:23:08,160 He was a janitor. 317 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:09,420 And a bow tie. 318 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:10,780 And a bow tie. 319 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,040 And he said, and his name was Gene Sanders. 320 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:16,240 I dedicate everything of my career to him. 321 00:23:16,460 --> 00:23:16,640 Oh. 322 00:23:17,140 --> 00:23:17,640 Okay? 323 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:24,100 And we had a conversation and he asked me where I was from and blah, blah, blah. 324 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,920 Then he said to me, he said, what brings you to NBC? 325 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:30,740 I didn't even know I was at NBC. 326 00:23:31,660 --> 00:23:32,360 I had no clue. 327 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:33,220 I had to go to the bathroom. 328 00:23:33,940 --> 00:23:37,420 And so we talked for a few minutes and then he said, well, what are you doing? 329 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:39,220 I thought I was going back to my hotel and back to Nashville. 330 00:23:39,660 --> 00:23:43,940 He said, I'd like to introduce you to some people and he introduced me to this 331 00:23:43,940 --> 00:23:50,540 man named Peter Tentul and eventually to a man named Lutz Summel and I'll never forget 332 00:23:50,540 --> 00:23:57,740 and some other people. And that was the end of that. I left my resume, went back to Nashville 333 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:02,820 and thought I'd never hear from them again, you know, that's the end of that. But I did. 334 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:08,320 I don't even recall if I was even offered a job with Hertz. I don't think so. 335 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:12,680 But 336 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:16,940 They called me in and they offered me a job in the sales department. 337 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:23,400 Now, I took the job and I'm making money and at 338 00:24:25,770 --> 00:24:28,070 that time, the three major networks, 339 00:24:28,230 --> 00:24:32,990 NBC, ABC, and CBS, that was it, and I liked the day. 340 00:24:34,330 --> 00:24:43,210 And there was another black guy on the staff, about a year or so, maybe a little less into 341 00:24:43,210 --> 00:24:48,390 did his sales job. Myself and two other guys called in and the network wanted to go into 342 00:24:48,390 --> 00:24:55,710 the overnight business and there was nothing on. NBC, for instance, at 12.30 when Johnny 343 00:24:55,710 --> 00:25:00,070 Carson and the Tonight Show would go on, nothing came on until seven o'clock in the morning. 344 00:25:00,910 --> 00:25:07,510 And they wanted to sell time when nothing's on. Intangible, can't see touches, nothing's 345 00:25:07,510 --> 00:25:16,450 there, how do you sell that? How do you get rid of that? So, you know, the person that 346 00:25:16,450 --> 00:25:20,150 was in charge, the president of the vice president of the department, 347 00:25:23,100 --> 00:25:26,080 she called us in, and 348 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:31,720 I think she made a mistake in my opinion, said, just get rid of it, other stuff. 349 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:39,080 And so we came up with the idea of giving it away for free, and for six weeks or 350 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:45,580 something like that. And we put the proposals together with the legal department and everybody 351 00:25:45,580 --> 00:25:52,680 else signed off on it. And the guy on Madison Avenue, one of the agents said, he said, he 352 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:58,220 implied that they were setting me up to field. I didn't see it quite that way, you know. 353 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:04,240 But regardless of whether that was the case, that particular project worked out to a 354 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:10,500 degree to a law degree and eventually everybody came on board and and and I 355 00:26:10,500 --> 00:26:16,440 don't consider it being a pioneer thing that was just a job. But proud of that they 356 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:21,280 were wondering where the money was because no money was coming in and whose 357 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:26,300 idea was this and naturally they pointed the fingers at me even though it 358 00:26:26,300 --> 00:26:31,200 wasn't totally me and she said well if you're that creative maybe we should 359 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:36,560 to try production. And I said oh, okay. And I knew people, producers, directors and talent 360 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:44,180 in that end of it. And so I took a, like a lower paying job, I was a married, it was 361 00:26:44,180 --> 00:26:51,700 just me. I could take the risk. And I took the job, a lower paying job in a scheduling 362 00:26:51,700 --> 00:27:03,000 an area where cameraman, makeup artist, wardrobe, stage directors, social directors, stage managers, 363 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:09,080 stage hands, everybody was scheduled and these were ego testicle people because they were 364 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:13,020 making money so it was a very, very hard job, dealing with personalities. 365 00:27:13,980 --> 00:27:20,780 And I took that job with the interest and intentions of eventually getting into production 366 00:27:20,780 --> 00:27:25,300 And I saw that as an avenue of being able to get in the studios and see what happened 367 00:27:25,300 --> 00:27:27,100 and observe what's happening. 368 00:27:29,660 --> 00:27:37,520 And my boss at the time, a man named Tom Smiley, he knew I was doing this because other 369 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,480 people were going that same path in order to get into different things. 370 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:46,060 He wanted me to deal with audio but no I wanted to get into more of the production 371 00:27:46,060 --> 00:27:47,440 and stage managing or whatever. 372 00:27:48,380 --> 00:27:54,740 And then they had a vacation relief program at NBC, and they hired me for the summer. 373 00:27:55,460 --> 00:28:01,980 And vacation relief was an opportunity to do all types of different jobs, okay? 374 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:07,240 And usually ran from maybe Memorial Day to Thanksgiving. 375 00:28:08,340 --> 00:28:13,440 Just so when people went on vacation, you feel informed, crazy, I was hired during 376 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:18,000 and stage managing, but I had to join the director's guild, which is a good thing. 377 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:23,980 And he told me, he said, now don't get comfortable because it's not going to last. 378 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:25,520 You're going to get laid off. 379 00:28:26,460 --> 00:28:29,780 But I was hoping I would be able to go back into the scheduling, which happened, which 380 00:28:29,780 --> 00:28:30,320 actually happened. 381 00:28:30,420 --> 00:28:34,760 I went back into the scheduling around November, so I had the opportunity to work the 382 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:35,920 Macy's for Raid that year. 383 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:42,620 I went back and then they called me back again and said you know you gonna put 384 00:28:42,620 --> 00:28:53,220 you back at temporary case relief and the word is out around Durham and places 385 00:28:54,000 --> 00:29:00,280 that I'm working at NBC but I'm not that's all I'm doing it's working at 386 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:09,580 NBC. I don't have any big contacts or anything going on. And I'm walking down Fifth Avenue 387 00:29:09,580 --> 00:29:18,020 one day and going to work. And this guy, I don't know if you're familiar with him, his 388 00:29:18,020 --> 00:29:24,960 name is Ernie Barnes. He's fast away. He was an artist. He did all the background paintings 389 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:29,620 for good times. All those paintings in the background. And all those paintings are 390 00:29:29,620 --> 00:29:35,460 about Durham, Sugar Shack, the Arbidee Pool Room. That's all it's about. Okay. And he 391 00:29:35,460 --> 00:29:42,980 was having a show up on 57th Street someplace and he wanted me to come and I 392 00:29:42,980 --> 00:29:46,900 assumed, I don't know this to be a fact, but I was thinking that he's thinking 393 00:29:46,900 --> 00:29:56,460 maybe I could get him on a today's show, you know, but I wasn't... You didn't have any major content. I knew the people, but I wasn't there. 394 00:30:00,340 --> 00:30:01,300 And, uh, 395 00:30:03,790 --> 00:30:08,450 I'm doing this vacation relief thing, and I'm getting ready to get laid off again, 396 00:30:08,690 --> 00:30:13,550 and I get a phone call. I don't know how the guy tracked me down. I really don't. We became 397 00:30:13,550 --> 00:30:20,490 friends after this. But he tracked me down, and he said to me, and it was Jimmy Walker, 398 00:30:20,630 --> 00:30:21,050 by the way. 399 00:30:21,410 --> 00:30:22,350 Oh, my goodness. 400 00:30:22,730 --> 00:30:23,070 J.J. 401 00:30:23,230 --> 00:30:23,970 From Good Time. 402 00:30:23,970 --> 00:30:33,350 Yeah. And, see, David Letterman, Jay Leno, and Byron Allen were writers for Jimmy Walker. 403 00:30:33,870 --> 00:30:35,590 Oh my goodness, I never knew that. 404 00:30:35,750 --> 00:30:37,910 Yeah. Not for good times. 405 00:30:38,170 --> 00:30:38,390 Right. 406 00:30:38,570 --> 00:30:39,250 They stand up. 407 00:30:39,270 --> 00:30:39,610 Mm-hmm. 408 00:30:40,130 --> 00:30:40,510 Okay. 409 00:30:41,030 --> 00:30:41,530 Wow. 410 00:30:41,710 --> 00:30:48,890 Yeah. And he said that something like this guy named David Letterman is going to get 411 00:30:48,890 --> 00:30:56,790 the summer replacement show at NBC in the morning live from 9 to 10 30 so I 412 00:30:56,790 --> 00:31:01,850 meant Dave yeah I like to meet him you sure I don't you know he remembers this 413 00:31:01,850 --> 00:31:09,330 I mean a letterman but he said he said listen whatever happens don't get 414 00:31:09,330 --> 00:31:16,750 comfortable with this cuz it's not going to prepare yeah don't boy if only 415 00:31:16,750 --> 00:31:23,790 they knew. It didn't last. I know but look how far you went. But that show did not last. 416 00:31:23,890 --> 00:31:29,630 No, it was canceled. It was canceled. The relationship lasted. Oh yeah, that show was 417 00:31:29,630 --> 00:31:35,630 canceled. The morning show. That's six months. And I think they kept them on retainer. You 418 00:31:35,630 --> 00:31:40,470 know, I hope I'm being accurate. I'm not, I'm close to it. Anyway, now I'm getting 419 00:31:40,470 --> 00:31:46,350 ready to go back into this scheduling thing again. And I get a call from my 420 00:31:46,350 --> 00:31:51,630 boss to come into the office. And it was another guy, now also on the morning 421 00:31:51,630 --> 00:31:58,270 show, let me back up a second, let him in. I don't know what they thought about me, 422 00:31:58,350 --> 00:32:02,530 but they must have thought something was funny. His girlfriend at the time, 423 00:32:05,150 --> 00:32:08,610 Marko, she was the producer and I think she had something to do with it. I'm not sure. 424 00:32:08,610 --> 00:32:13,470 Anyway, when they said here's David Letterman instead of him coming out he pushed me out there 425 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:20,600 I had no problem with that right I went down there, but he came right out and pushed me out the way 426 00:32:21,860 --> 00:32:27,020 So anyway, they started using me doing a little skits and stuff. So I had to join after 427 00:32:27,780 --> 00:32:29,180 Now I'm an after yeah 428 00:32:30,100 --> 00:32:31,520 Union yeah, both of them 429 00:32:32,300 --> 00:32:34,920 And after and then sag after join 430 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:36,880 together eventually 431 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:38,320 so 432 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:43,620 they call me into the office and it's a guy from the director's guild sitting 433 00:32:43,620 --> 00:32:49,600 there and I'm telling you what in the world is this all about and a boy says to me 434 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:54,740 he said we got a permanent position for you faith and destiny basically we 435 00:32:54,740 --> 00:32:59,060 talked about yeah and he said he said we got a permanent position for you a 436 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,940 staff position I said oh this is great and that was in there after a few words 437 00:33:03,940 --> 00:33:12,020 And then as I'm getting up to leave, I know the fellow who discovered this thing, he was 438 00:33:12,020 --> 00:33:12,780 a staff guy. 439 00:33:13,620 --> 00:33:17,540 And so the guy from the director's guild said, aren't you going to tell them why he's got 440 00:33:17,540 --> 00:33:18,320 a permanent position? 441 00:33:18,700 --> 00:33:24,420 Well, the agreement between NBC, CBS and ABC at the time was that anyone that had a 442 00:33:24,420 --> 00:33:27,980 permanent assignment for six months had to be maybe a permanent employee. 443 00:33:31,170 --> 00:33:31,690 Now I'm in. 444 00:33:33,310 --> 00:33:38,910 And eventually time goes by and Letterman comes back with a late night show at NBC. 445 00:33:39,810 --> 00:33:42,970 And I did that with him for 11 years. 446 00:33:43,590 --> 00:33:47,450 We did the show basically, I think, four days a week, three weeks a month, which left 447 00:33:47,450 --> 00:33:50,290 me with the opportunity to do all kinds of other stuff. 448 00:33:50,910 --> 00:33:58,590 I was doing Miss America, Miss Everything, Space Shuttles, Super Bowls, you name 449 00:33:58,590 --> 00:33:59,630 all over the world. 450 00:33:59,930 --> 00:34:00,770 Everything was happening. 451 00:34:00,770 --> 00:34:06,190 money's being made, I'm married, my kids are coming along, everything's real cool. 452 00:34:07,110 --> 00:34:16,170 And then here comes this big button here with Jay Leno and the Tonight Show, okay, and Letterman 453 00:34:16,170 --> 00:34:16,990 says I'm out. 454 00:34:19,150 --> 00:34:24,910 And he goes to CBS but he wants me to come along with some other people that were working 455 00:34:24,910 --> 00:34:25,370 at NBC. 456 00:34:25,370 --> 00:34:30,650 you see. I had reservation about it because of the fact that who knew if it was gonna work. 457 00:34:31,010 --> 00:34:36,310 Yeah, who knew if it was gonna work. I got a job. I got a permanent job. But they were 458 00:34:36,310 --> 00:34:41,190 making offices that you can't refuse, it was hard. And I wasn't gonna go to California, 459 00:34:41,750 --> 00:34:44,390 and I didn't know what you were doing. They decided to do it at Ed Sullivan Theater. 460 00:34:44,930 --> 00:34:50,350 Things got better. Big shots of CBS had me come down there, and they said, yeah, 461 00:34:50,350 --> 00:34:53,530 You're coming, and they may ask for more icing on the cake. 462 00:34:54,910 --> 00:35:02,030 And we've been at CBS, I'm in NBC for 11 years, and then we did 22 years at CBS, 32 years 463 00:35:02,030 --> 00:35:02,690 all total. 464 00:35:03,470 --> 00:35:08,550 I was able to travel all over the place with Olympics and other things with the show. 465 00:35:09,670 --> 00:35:14,870 As a result of the show, I went to Bosnia twice, Afghanistan once, and Iraq twice, 466 00:35:15,250 --> 00:35:18,670 of the USO, you know, support troops, and all that, 467 00:35:18,770 --> 00:35:22,010 that only went, and Paul Schaefer, you know. 468 00:35:23,170 --> 00:35:25,450 And we always got along. 469 00:35:25,630 --> 00:35:27,550 I mean, he's a very, very generous guy. 470 00:35:28,010 --> 00:35:29,350 I don't say that because I work for him. 471 00:35:29,790 --> 00:35:31,290 You know, I just say it because it's a fact. 472 00:35:31,830 --> 00:35:35,950 And he does a lot of charity stuff, and it's very generous. 473 00:35:36,070 --> 00:35:37,830 Well, clearly he trusted you, which he should have 474 00:35:37,830 --> 00:35:40,230 because you're a big part of all of his shows. 475 00:35:40,510 --> 00:35:42,570 He made sure that you were, but people enjoyed. 476 00:35:42,790 --> 00:35:43,830 I was one of the people. 477 00:35:43,830 --> 00:35:45,070 Well, I appreciate that. 478 00:35:45,150 --> 00:35:51,450 Who enjoyed all the skits and your funny personality and your comments, Harry. 479 00:35:52,970 --> 00:35:57,890 People would ask me that question a lot of times, just not only in the street, but other 480 00:35:57,890 --> 00:36:02,570 places in interviews, they say, well, doesn't that bother you, weren't you nervous being 481 00:36:02,570 --> 00:36:03,470 on TV and all? 482 00:36:03,570 --> 00:36:06,470 I say, what is it to be concerned about when you don't know what you're doing? 483 00:36:07,990 --> 00:36:09,630 And it seemed very natural for you. 484 00:36:09,750 --> 00:36:10,970 And you were just, you were funny. 485 00:36:10,970 --> 00:36:16,230 You were, you know, you hear claims like you just became his famous producer, one of our 486 00:36:16,230 --> 00:36:19,650 favorite parts, one of our favorite, one of our favorite features from the day before. 487 00:36:19,690 --> 00:36:25,910 Well, you know, if it helped to make things work, it definitely did. 488 00:36:26,070 --> 00:36:27,170 And then I was on board. 489 00:36:27,330 --> 00:36:28,110 I had no problem with that. 490 00:36:28,150 --> 00:36:34,810 I have to ask you, so the media industry is known for not always treating its black 491 00:36:34,810 --> 00:36:40,830 black artists and producers fairly, and yet you were able to navigate the industry with 492 00:36:40,830 --> 00:36:41,590 much success. 493 00:36:42,410 --> 00:36:43,190 Thank you. 494 00:36:43,370 --> 00:36:45,030 Why do you think that is? 495 00:36:45,150 --> 00:36:46,670 Do you think you did something different? 496 00:36:46,890 --> 00:36:48,310 Do you think it was just ... 497 00:36:48,310 --> 00:36:49,030 Gene Sanders. 498 00:36:49,690 --> 00:36:49,950 Yeah. 499 00:36:50,190 --> 00:36:50,530 Okay. 500 00:36:50,850 --> 00:36:51,150 Yeah. 501 00:36:51,370 --> 00:36:52,170 Faith, destiny. 502 00:36:52,570 --> 00:36:53,310 Faith and destiny. 503 00:36:53,350 --> 00:37:00,710 I don't know, you know, but I know one thing, yeah, I was there to do a job, make 504 00:37:00,710 --> 00:37:06,590 it work and I wasn't kissing up to anybody or nothing like that. 505 00:37:08,650 --> 00:37:13,230 I can't honestly answer 506 00:37:13,230 --> 00:37:20,330 the question because I mean that's where I was pursuing it and I wasn't going to burn 507 00:37:20,330 --> 00:37:20,850 in the bridges. 508 00:37:21,830 --> 00:37:25,410 That's an important lesson though. One of my colleagues taught me I never burned bridges 509 00:37:25,410 --> 00:37:28,530 but you said something about your childhood and your upbringing that I think is important 510 00:37:28,530 --> 00:37:31,210 and two, which is that the entire time you were growing up, 511 00:37:31,250 --> 00:37:33,230 even though the community was separate but equal, 512 00:37:33,390 --> 00:37:35,230 that everyone that was around you 513 00:37:35,810 --> 00:37:37,210 held you to the highest standard. 514 00:37:37,670 --> 00:37:38,230 Not only me. 515 00:37:38,570 --> 00:37:38,750 Yep. 516 00:37:39,670 --> 00:37:40,790 And so I think that that, 517 00:37:40,970 --> 00:37:42,710 when we get into a professional work environment, 518 00:37:42,970 --> 00:37:47,930 those types of standards from our childhood kick in, you 519 00:37:47,930 --> 00:37:48,090 know? 520 00:37:48,570 --> 00:37:48,830 They do. 521 00:37:48,870 --> 00:37:49,850 And I'm sure you always delivered. 522 00:37:50,330 --> 00:37:50,950 They do. 523 00:37:51,210 --> 00:37:51,450 They do. 524 00:37:51,570 --> 00:37:53,890 I mean, I could sit here all day 525 00:37:53,890 --> 00:37:56,590 and talk for hours about different experiences 526 00:37:56,590 --> 00:38:01,710 that he'd probably say that's impossible. It didn't happen, but it did. I mean, just 527 00:38:01,710 --> 00:38:07,150 different things that really, really happened. I mean, 528 00:38:09,420 --> 00:38:12,100 it's a blessing. 529 00:38:12,460 --> 00:38:13,540 Have you ever googled yourself? 530 00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:15,060 For what? 531 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:16,320 I googled you. 532 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:17,280 I know you did. 533 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:23,900 It's incredible. You're everywhere. You're everywhere. You've got pictures with Kobe 534 00:38:23,900 --> 00:38:26,780 Bryant, who's my favorite basketball player of all time. You've got pictures with 535 00:38:26,780 --> 00:38:31,900 Bruce Willis and Michael Strahan and Terry Gar and like how does it how do you 536 00:38:31,900 --> 00:38:35,460 feel when you're out about in the community and do people you're a 537 00:38:35,460 --> 00:38:40,680 celebrity. How do you handle that? I just have to deal with it I mean I can't get 538 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:45,300 an attitude all the time. I mean I was in a drug store one day and I was ready 539 00:38:45,300 --> 00:38:48,940 because these kids working behind the counter were taking too long and I'm 540 00:38:48,940 --> 00:38:55,420 ready. I was I was actually in there with Michael Kay when he lived around here. 541 00:38:56,120 --> 00:39:02,920 I don't know if they recognize him, but I'm ready to tell these kids to hurry up, got to 542 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,820 go and I turned around and somebody said, oh, hey, Biffin, I said, damn, I can't even 543 00:39:06,820 --> 00:39:07,980 get an attitude out here. 544 00:39:08,900 --> 00:39:10,380 I can't even get an attitude. 545 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:14,060 So, you know, I mean, I don't know what to say, you know, but it's true. 546 00:39:14,220 --> 00:39:20,000 I mean, it's just, it's, what was your question? 547 00:39:20,340 --> 00:39:24,940 Is it hard to be a celebrity, like especially in a town like Greenberg, which is not huge, 548 00:39:24,940 --> 00:39:30,800 you know everybody kind of knows you. I mean I've gotten it other places. But let 549 00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:33,540 you know that you're getting older because most of the people are old and 550 00:39:33,540 --> 00:39:37,160 they'll be saying, hey, they're the speaking. I know a lot of the other kids. 551 00:39:37,860 --> 00:39:42,320 Now you might be aging, your energy is very young. Oh no, no, no. I'm talking 552 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:49,220 about people who watch the show, who remember. You know, a lot of them, there's a 553 00:39:49,220 --> 00:39:57,180 lot of young young people you know I did you mention Kobe Bryant and those guys 554 00:39:57,180 --> 00:40:04,580 every time I hear those names stories come to mind yeah yeah I mean like Michael 555 00:40:04,580 --> 00:40:09,380 Strahan you know he used to use him a lot when the Giants were doing very well 556 00:40:09,380 --> 00:40:17,120 and winning Super Bowls and he was very good and very funny and once he stopped 557 00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:24,240 playing professional football and started getting into television and stuff and and he 558 00:40:24,240 --> 00:40:29,100 every time I'd see him he said to me he said you know not that I wasn't interested in this 559 00:40:29,100 --> 00:40:33,760 but the reason is because of you meaning me I didn't look at it that way I never thought 560 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:39,220 he said you were the first one to put me on tv doing anything outside of a football field 561 00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:42,940 and I didn't know it I mean I didn't look at it it was crazy it was stupid 562 00:40:42,940 --> 00:40:45,580 But he's really wild with crazy stuff. 563 00:40:46,580 --> 00:40:50,460 And then, you know, you mentioned Kobe, God rest his soul. 564 00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:50,760 Yeah. 565 00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:54,340 What is the one thing, the one, maybe not story, 566 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:56,400 what's the one piece of advice you would give 567 00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,360 to aspiring media professionals today? 568 00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:01,340 So we're coming out like Michael Strahan said, 569 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:02,560 you kind of inspired him. 570 00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:05,660 Listen, the entertainment business in my opinion 571 00:41:05,660 --> 00:41:08,800 is only about two things. 572 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:11,160 Temporary work and rejection. 573 00:41:11,860 --> 00:41:12,880 That's all it is. 574 00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:14,660 Nobody has a job. 575 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:16,420 You know, they have projects. 576 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,960 You might end up getting a job for a long period of time, 577 00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:23,480 but nine times out of ten, it doesn't last. 578 00:41:24,260 --> 00:41:26,800 We got blessed with 30-something years. 579 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:28,120 That's very, very well. 580 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:32,060 I think the show maybe still is the longest-running 581 00:41:32,060 --> 00:41:32,880 late-night show. 582 00:41:33,620 --> 00:41:34,960 I think Kimmel is catching up. 583 00:41:34,980 --> 00:41:36,400 He's close to 30, believe it or not. 584 00:41:36,540 --> 00:41:38,500 I think he's close to about 30. 585 00:41:38,500 --> 00:41:41,400 So, having said that, it's temporary work and rejection. 586 00:41:41,620 --> 00:41:47,160 I encourage everybody and anybody that wants to do this stuff to get to do it. 587 00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:51,120 We're talking in front of the camera now, okay? 588 00:41:52,660 --> 00:41:57,800 But, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, there's no guarantee. 589 00:41:58,220 --> 00:41:58,360 Yeah. 590 00:41:58,540 --> 00:42:02,600 I mean, it's kind of, I know people with more talent out here and people with talent 591 00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:05,260 that nobody will ever see because they can't handle that rejection. 592 00:42:05,500 --> 00:42:05,740 Yeah. 593 00:42:05,940 --> 00:42:06,420 It's tough. 594 00:42:07,100 --> 00:42:08,540 You need a thick skin. 595 00:42:09,140 --> 00:42:09,340 Oh. 596 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:13,600 Trust me. 597 00:42:14,100 --> 00:42:19,160 Thank you so much for sharing everything you shared with us today and for being here. 598 00:42:19,660 --> 00:42:20,360 You're more than welcome. 599 00:42:20,720 --> 00:42:21,320 I enjoyed it. 600 00:42:21,980 --> 00:42:23,080 I hope it works out for you. 601 00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:23,880 Oh, thank you. 602 00:42:23,980 --> 00:42:26,080 I got to spend this time with you, so it's already worked out. 603 00:42:26,380 --> 00:42:30,160 Thank you so much, and we'll see you on our next African Diaspora experience.