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[0:28] Welcome back to the African diaspora experience. Living narratives from Greenberg. I am Tina
[0:34] P. Dinkins, representing the Department of Community Resources. And our guest today is
[0:39] Mr. James Jackson, Biff Henderson, Jr. I left out the, I remember the Jackson and the Jr.
[0:48] That's great, all right.
[0:48] Lovingly known here in Greenberg as Biff Henderson. So I have to ask you, how did you become
[0:55] known as Biff?
[0:56] Oh, interesting. My life's journey started in the 40s, 1940s, in Durham, North Carolina,
[1:04] Jim Crow, segregated south. I have one sister that's older than I am by five or six years,
[1:11] but a friend of my mother's had a dream that she had a kid named Biff. So it's not a
[1:18] showbiz thing, it's an actual nickname that was given to me when I was born. My mother
[1:24] promised her that when she had another kid, that she wouldn't nickname the kid Vif, Boy
[1:30] or Girl, and that's me.
[1:32] And she stuck to it.
[1:33] What a great friend.
[1:34] Right.
[1:35] So you grew up in Durham, North Carolina, segregated Jim Crow, South, you said.
[1:40] Absolutely.
[1:41] As a young black male, what was that like growing up in the segregated South?
[1:45] Separate but equal is what they called it.
[1:48] But having said that it was basically true in Durham, it was not like living in
[1:53] the country, or in the suburbs, or someplace outside of a major city.
[2:00] And Durham was definitely progressive, and a city of maybe 40,000 people at the time,
[2:08] the third or fourth largest city in the state of North Carolina.
[2:13] And growing up there, in my situation, I was very humbled about it and blessed because
[2:20] I was brought up in basically a very upper middle-class environment. My parents did very
[2:27] well for themselves. Durham actually was progressive for blacks and everything was basically available.
[2:37] The largest black-owned and operated business in the world at that time was located in
[2:43] Mutual.
[2:43] Yes.
[2:44] And it was also a bank, Mechanics and Farmers Bank, Mutual Savings and Loan.
[2:50] Many, many businesses, but the equal part of this is there was one major high school
[3:00] for blacks, one major high school for whites.
[3:03] My high school was Hillside, Durham High was for whites then in accounting.
[3:08] morning, they had two or three county schools that basically went from 1st to 12th grade.
[3:18] And Northern and Southern High for Whites, they had Merrick Moore and Merrick Moore were
[3:23] two of the, was named after two of the founders of Narco-Armugia, Aaron Moore and John
[3:29] Merritt along with C. C. Spaulder.
[3:33] And having said that, every school that I attended in Durham, from elementary school straight
[3:42] through high school, was named after someone black, okay?
[3:50] It was a book of T. Washington, and like that, it was usually somebody local.
[3:54] Like W. G. Pearson in the fifth grade, I went to C. C. Spall in elementary school,
[3:59] was another one of the founders of North Carolina Mutual and the banks. And that went straight
[4:10] through high school. So, you know, it was separate equal. I mean, there was one major
[4:16] hotel for whites, one for blacks, and three theaters each, including one drive-in theater.
[4:27] Blacks could go to the White Theatres, they had to go up in the balcony, which were the
[4:36] best seats in the theater, and it really worked.
[4:40] And you know, we had fun with them throwing popcorn down there, or whatever, you know.
[4:47] I mean, they were the best seats.
[4:48] And they could come over to our theaters, but they had to sit over there.
[4:53] It was definitely separate.
[4:55] And it was weird because I grew up in an environment that was totally, you were aware of everything
[5:02] and expected, a lot was expected of you, regardless of your social or economic background, who
[5:12] have and have nots, people were unified to a degree, I'm speaking of Durham, okay,
[5:17] that you know everything was you know there and available and exposed to
[5:24] whoever you were still held to the highest standard yes and not because of
[5:28] my parents but because that's that was there that was the community that was
[5:32] the way it was and you know it's a black college in Durham North Carolina
[5:37] college and and all that you know so that's the way it was I mean I you know
[5:48] in elementary school started around 8 30 in the morning 9 o'clock we would meet
[5:54] in the auditorium of the school and we would pledge allegiance to the flag and
[6:03] sing the Black National Anthem lift the reward and lift the rewards and sing
[6:06] That was every day and this is in the 1950s. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely
[6:13] And probably before before I started and having said that you know
[6:18] So I know the the entire song all four verses where as I got older and met other people
[6:25] For some reason they didn't they didn't realize. Well, yeah
[6:28] I mean when you talk about the segregate itself you had in in many ways a very privileged
[6:33] upbringing because many people didn't experience separate but equal as actually separate and
[6:40] equal.
[6:41] Well, I can't honestly say if it was equal.
[6:47] I know everything, the numbers were equal, but I had nothing to compare to.
[6:54] Did you hang out with other white teens?
[6:58] Did you have white friends?
[6:59] I never knew it.
[6:59] You never knew it well.
[7:00] No reason to.
[7:02] No reason to.
[7:03] I mean you know I think they used guys used to come across and want to compete in
[7:08] maybe some sports and everything and and they would never win because we couldn't
[7:12] allow that to happen.
[7:15] I mean that's the truth yeah I don't recall you know but
[7:19] we had boys clubs, white, white MCAs, everything that you can imagine there
[7:24] were like supermarkets I mean you name it drug stores and definitely churches
[7:32] Yes.
[7:33] That type of thing.
[7:35] You know, I mentioned to a lot of people that I grew up in a city where there was actually
[7:39] a boys club.
[7:40] They say, you had a boys club, you know.
[7:42] I say, yep.
[7:43] John Avery Boys Club.
[7:44] For a young black man.
[7:45] Yeah.
[7:46] And it was actually named after a black person, you know.
[7:50] And so the identity in the relationship was there, you know.
[7:55] I never felt, yeah, I knew segregation was there.
[8:00] I knew Jim Crow existed but you know it was it was that's the way it was I heard
[8:08] that one of your childhood friends was the very very famous Arthur Ashe oh yes
[8:13] how did you meet Arthur Ashe was that high school elementary school well we
[8:17] actually I played tennis okay growing up I was a pretty serious tennis player
[8:23] And at that time, down in Durham, blacks had actual tennis clubs.
[8:30] I mean, I'm not talking about a group of people meeting in the park.
[8:32] I'm talking about building.
[8:34] A whole tennis club.
[8:35] Yeah, an actual tennis club.
[8:37] And at that time, there was the ATA, which was the American Tennis Association, which
[8:41] was basically black.
[8:43] And the USLTA, which was the United States Law and Tennis Association, which was
[8:49] white.
[8:50] When I was coming along, Althea Gibson sort of had already broken the coal line.
[8:57] There were a lot of tournaments all over the country.
[8:59] The A.T. was a really big deal.
[9:02] I mean, we'd go to tournaments and there were a lot of entries.
[9:07] But Ash, what happened, there was a lady in Durham named Mrs. B.A.J. with it.
[9:12] And she was very active in the community.
[9:15] She worked for Norco Immune to Life Insurance Company as a treasurer and she was big into
[9:24] tennis from what I understand very instrumental in Althea's career along with a man named
[9:32] Dr. Hubert Eaton from Wilmington, North Carolina.
[9:37] At any rate, I was like about five, maybe six or seven years old, I was fling.
[9:42] And Mrs. Whittitt called my parents and asked if this young man from Richmond could stay
[9:49] at our house.
[9:50] And he was competing in the tournament.
[9:54] And yes, my parents said, yeah, and it was Ash.
[9:58] And so we became friends that way.
[10:01] And he was a little hitter this time in the game and another thing, very bright
[10:04] guy.
[10:06] And I won my first trophy with him.
[10:09] Oh, wow.
[10:11] And what happened was we were sitting around the dinner table and Ash said that he wanted
[10:19] to play doubles in the tournament, but he didn't have a partner.
[10:24] So my parents said, well, why don't you take this?
[10:27] And if he was still living, he may be a year older than I am, okay?
[10:32] So the three divisions in the ATA were the 12 and under, year olds, 13 and 15 and 15 and 18.
[10:40] And we were in the 12 and under.
[10:43] And he said, oh, I'll do that.
[10:46] And so I won my first trophy.
[10:48] He won the first trophy.
[10:50] I was just his partner.
[10:53] He actually won the trophy.
[10:55] That's incredible.
[10:56] Yeah, he was that good.
[10:57] And then we were made friends all the way up until his death actually.
[11:01] So what was it like watching him soar and become who he became in the tennis world?
[11:05] I mean, it was expected. I mean, there were a lot of good black tennis players out there,
[11:09] but you know, his story is his story. And it's fair. I mean, he was ready for that.
[11:15] And it wasn't an easy task, but he succeeded at that.
[11:19] And I think he would have succeeded at anything that he did.
[11:22] And he did. He was just that kind of guy. Kind of like someone else we know.
[11:24] You went to one of the greatest historically black colleges in the country.
[11:30] Hampton University by Alma Mater. I wonder why you say it was so good. What
[11:37] guided you to Hampton, Virginia? What guided you to that particular school?
[11:41] Because it sounds like you were incredibly bright, very well involved. Yes,
[11:46] I'm listening to you. You won a trophy with Arthur Ashe. What made you pick
[11:49] Hampton University to continue your education? It wasn't much of a choice.
[11:54] I mean it was a choice I had. I mean my father, everybody in my family, attended
[11:59] to Hampton just about family tradition yeah undergrad my father actually was the
[12:05] first black member of the trustee boy at Hampton and he was the first black
[12:10] chairman of the trustee boy at Hampton my sister had attended Hampton other
[12:15] relatives and so I went after high school to pre-college at Hampton and I
[12:23] actually didn't attend my first year my freshman year I went to Tennessee State
[12:27] on the tennis offer, because they were trying to get a tennis program going. And I went
[12:38] out there and I enjoyed it. I had an uncle who was working at Fiske, teaching at Fiske
[12:44] who eventually became a president at Clark College in Atlanta. But anyway, I transferred
[12:50] back to Hampton at the end of my freshman year at Tennessee State. I had gone to pre-college
[12:58] the year before and that was the summer, well that was the summer of 1963. I had been involved
[13:06] very heavily in the Civil Rights Movement, protesting down south. So I had gone to the
[13:11] March on Washington in 1963. And then I went back to Hampton and when I got there,
[13:18] the tennis coach wanted me to come out for the team and I did I went out for a
[13:23] few days and I just had hit a wall I played too much and so I dropped it for
[13:30] quite a few years but how I was convinced to go to Hampton it was like
[13:35] one of those things that to a degree I guess you could say family tradition
[13:40] but also I kind of grew up on the campus yeah so having said that you
[13:47] You know, people said to me, you know, you know, your legacy with Hampton, you know,
[13:53] this than the other.
[13:55] And it's a good school, conducive for studying, make friends for life, and a lot of good stuff.
[14:01] Oh, that is true.
[14:02] You are actually one of the reasons I chose to go to Yale University.
[14:04] Oh, is that right?
[14:05] Yes.
[14:05] You and Ted Jones.
[14:07] Yes, of course.
[14:08] Well, I'm sure you don't regret it.
[14:09] I hope so.
[14:10] I do not.
[14:11] Never will.
[14:11] You shouldn't tell me about all the fun when we walk around.
[14:13] It was that too, we learned a lot, it was a lot of fun.
[14:17] So you grew up in this segregated cell and then went to an HBCU and then you served in
[14:23] Vietnam, thank you for your service.
[14:25] I was drafted.
[14:26] Yeah.
[14:27] Okay.
[14:28] So here, so Vietnam was...
[14:30] Put you up.
[14:30] Put you up.
[14:32] Vietnam was the first war, I believe, where black troops and white troops were
[14:38] not segregated.
[14:41] You know, maybe I'm learning something I didn't know.
[14:44] Okay, so I was going to ask you, because you talked very much about growing up very separate.
[14:50] And HBCUs are historically black colleges and universities.
[14:54] So when you were deployed and were serving in Vietnam, I would imagine you were less separate.
[15:00] Well, let's back up for a second here. Let's understand something. Another reason I may have
[15:05] gone to Hampton probably did. See, I was never in a classroom with anyone white, and I never
[15:11] had a white instructor all the way through college. I was never in the minority, basically.
[15:20] So when they were talking about things like entitlement and everything, I thought they
[15:23] were talking about me.
[15:26] I didn't realize that you were, am I not right?
[15:31] I knew I was being discriminated against, but I had never been in... Everything that I had
[15:40] experienced to that point and beyond was made sure that it happened. Teachers always
[15:49] were looking out for everybody, everything. I mean, you know, if something happened in
[15:55] Durham, for instance,
[15:59] you know, there were black detectives, black police officers and
[16:02] everything, and if you did anything, anything happened. Your parents knew about it before
[16:06] you got home, and that's not a joke. I mean, they really did. They, well, get your
[16:10] own switch, whatever you want, you know. And, you know, having said that, I just
[16:17] This wasn't in that situation, if that was a question.
[16:20] Well, it's a different experience.
[16:22] So when you get to Vietnam, are you fighting alongside white soldiers?
[16:27] So this is the first time, is this the first time, would you say, in your life that you
[16:33] weren't separate from them?
[16:35] Well, no, no.
[16:36] At that point, yes, I had met a few white friends, and so I knew some people.
[16:45] people. But to that degree, yeah, probably, you know, people that I felt I could trust.
[16:52] And I felt comfortable around. Vietnam was a different experience. I was drafted in 1968,
[17:03] and it was a situation where I was doing the Tet Offensive, which they say was the
[17:13] time. I was an older guy. I had been to college. I was 21, 22. Most of the guys over there were
[17:20] 18, 19. I mean, I learned things that I did not need to know and wish I didn't know to some degree.
[17:28] I'm glad, and in the other ways I'm glad I know. I remember the first thing that was said
[17:34] to us was about 50 of us in a place bigger than this whole building. I'll never forget what this
[17:41] big sergeant came in there and said, and this is what he said, he said, gentlemen, welcome
[17:48] to the Republic of South Vietnam where life has no value except to the one that owns it.
[17:55] And that's the hard one to swallow.
[17:58] He was right.
[17:59] I mean, it was the truth, but it's something you didn't need to know.
[18:04] And then when you end up in a combat situation, in my case, it was rather scary.
[18:08] It's something that you do get used to, but it was a wake-up call.
[18:15] And I wouldn't wish it on, you know, my worst enemy, but I survived, and there's a reason
[18:21] why I'm here for whatever that reason is, if I fulfill it.
[18:26] And I did 13 and a half months over there, and when I came back home, they didn't recognize
[18:38] Vietnam veteran, there's anything other than, I don't know how to, we weren't recognized.
[18:44] There was nothing, nothing there, you know, and then when, you know, I started my professional
[18:51] career after that and I took advantage of the G.I. Bill back to some education points
[18:56] and I started taking courses in New York City down at Pace University by City Hall
[19:01] in Manhattan.
[19:02] And that was the first time I was up in a classroom with more whites than me.
[19:09] You know, like three of us in there.
[19:11] Did serving in Vietnam with white soldiers change your view on race relations or race
[19:16] politics?
[19:17] Yeah.
[19:17] I guess it may have.
[19:18] I just don't know.
[19:19] You know, I looked at humans as humans and I still do.
[19:24] If a person has their hang-ups, that's their problem.
[19:28] That's not mine.
[19:29] That's not my problem.
[19:29] I'm going to treat you the way I want to treat you and that's the way it is.
[19:35] So you go from being separate as a child to being around white people in the war and then
[19:40] you said when you got out and you went to school that was your first time in the classroom.
[19:43] Did you feel like you had to adapt?
[19:45] Did you feel like you had to?
[19:46] Well there was some adapting to do like for instance when I was taking the course, had
[19:51] a professor and there was three of us in the class, I mean in blacks.
[19:55] I just realized that we weren't being called on.
[20:00] Oh.
[20:00] Yeah, we weren't being called on.
[20:02] Which is new for you.
[20:03] Very new.
[20:03] Which was very new.
[20:04] Yes.
[20:05] And after one class, I said to a couple of the guys, I said, we've got to speak up on
[20:11] this one, man.
[20:12] You know, this guy acts like we're not even here.
[20:14] And we did.
[20:16] And I'm not going to call his name, I'm sure he's not living, but that's beside
[20:19] the point.
[20:20] And we brought it up to him, and he said that, he said, you know, I appreciate, he really
[20:27] appreciated it.
[20:28] He said, because we weren't the first ones to bring that to his attention.
[20:32] Really?
[20:32] He said he had other students bring that to his attention.
[20:36] I said, yeah, we're not, it's like we're not even here, you know, and it didn't change
[20:42] him.
[20:43] It didn't change after that?
[20:45] Oh boy.
[20:46] Okay.
[20:46] I mean, you know, I think he saw us occasionally, you know, whatever, but that didn't take away
[20:52] from the fact of what we were there to learn.
[20:54] To learn, yeah.
[20:55] Yeah.
[20:55] And so whatever he said, we were getting it anyway, you know, so it was, that was his
[21:02] loss, no doubt.
[21:03] You know, he didn't know what we knew.
[21:05] And I don't know whether it changed my mind or attitude.
[21:11] I was growing up.
[21:12] Yeah.
[21:12] I was growing up.
[21:13] It was a learning experience.
[21:14] So let's talk about David Letterman. How did you get from finishing your education credits
[21:22] to being such a major part of the David Letterman experience?
[21:28] That's an interesting question.
[21:31] I was working in Nashville after Vietnam for American Airlines
[21:37] airlines. And airlines didn't pay much money. And back in those days, in the late sixties,
[21:45] early seventies, you had to be earning at least $13,000 a year to get a credit card.
[21:53] And I wasn't doing it. I had a Corford card, but you couldn't use it for personal use.
[21:59] So the credit card, I mean, so I wasn't making any money.
[22:06] I went on a job interview in New York, down in Rockefeller Center, with the Hertz Corporation.
[22:16] And this is back in the early 70s, and security was not an issue in builders.
[22:24] You could walk in and out of buildings, like it's nothing.
[22:28] And I left the interview, going back to my hotel, and I'm walking down the card in
[22:36] 30 Rock, and I had to go to the bathroom real bad.
[22:40] This is a true story.
[22:42] And I asked someone where the bathroom was, and they told me to go to the second floor
[22:50] and directed me to it.
[22:51] So I'm in there doing my business, and I hear this very distinguished voice behind me, how
[22:58] are you today, young man?
[23:00] The very distinguished little man with his bow tie on, and his broom, and his dust
[23:06] fan.
[23:07] He was a janitor.
[23:08] And a bow tie.
[23:10] And a bow tie.
[23:11] And he said, and his name was Gene Sanders.
[23:14] I dedicate everything of my career to him.
[23:16] Oh.
[23:17] Okay?
[23:18] And we had a conversation and he asked me where I was from and blah, blah, blah.
[23:24] Then he said to me, he said, what brings you to NBC?
[23:29] I didn't even know I was at NBC.
[23:31] I had no clue.
[23:32] I had to go to the bathroom.
[23:33] And so we talked for a few minutes and then he said, well, what are you doing?
[23:37] I thought I was going back to my hotel and back to Nashville.
[23:39] He said, I'd like to introduce you to some people and he introduced me to this
[23:43] man named Peter Tentul and eventually to a man named Lutz Summel and I'll never forget
[23:50] and some other people. And that was the end of that. I left my resume, went back to Nashville
[23:59] and thought I'd never hear from them again, you know, that's the end of that. But I did.
[24:03] I don't even recall if I was even offered a job with Hertz. I don't think so.
[24:12] But
[24:12] They called me in and they offered me a job in the sales department.
[24:17] Now, I took the job and I'm making money and at
[24:25] that time, the three major networks,
[24:28] NBC, ABC, and CBS, that was it, and I liked the day.
[24:34] And there was another black guy on the staff, about a year or so, maybe a little less into
[24:43] did his sales job. Myself and two other guys called in and the network wanted to go into
[24:48] the overnight business and there was nothing on. NBC, for instance, at 12.30 when Johnny
[24:55] Carson and the Tonight Show would go on, nothing came on until seven o'clock in the morning.
[25:00] And they wanted to sell time when nothing's on. Intangible, can't see touches, nothing's
[25:07] there, how do you sell that? How do you get rid of that? So, you know, the person that
[25:16] was in charge, the president of the vice president of the department,
[25:23] she called us in, and
[25:26] I think she made a mistake in my opinion, said, just get rid of it, other stuff.
[25:32] And so we came up with the idea of giving it away for free, and for six weeks or
[25:39] something like that. And we put the proposals together with the legal department and everybody
[25:45] else signed off on it. And the guy on Madison Avenue, one of the agents said, he said, he
[25:52] implied that they were setting me up to field. I didn't see it quite that way, you know.
[25:58] But regardless of whether that was the case, that particular project worked out to a
[26:04] degree to a law degree and eventually everybody came on board and and and I
[26:10] don't consider it being a pioneer thing that was just a job. But proud of that they
[26:16] were wondering where the money was because no money was coming in and whose
[26:21] idea was this and naturally they pointed the fingers at me even though it
[26:26] wasn't totally me and she said well if you're that creative maybe we should
[26:31] to try production. And I said oh, okay. And I knew people, producers, directors and talent
[26:36] in that end of it. And so I took a, like a lower paying job, I was a married, it was
[26:44] just me. I could take the risk. And I took the job, a lower paying job in a scheduling
[26:51] an area where cameraman, makeup artist, wardrobe, stage directors, social directors, stage managers,
[27:03] stage hands, everybody was scheduled and these were ego testicle people because they were
[27:09] making money so it was a very, very hard job, dealing with personalities.
[27:13] And I took that job with the interest and intentions of eventually getting into production
[27:20] And I saw that as an avenue of being able to get in the studios and see what happened
[27:25] and observe what's happening.
[27:29] And my boss at the time, a man named Tom Smiley, he knew I was doing this because other
[27:37] people were going that same path in order to get into different things.
[27:40] He wanted me to deal with audio but no I wanted to get into more of the production
[27:46] and stage managing or whatever.
[27:48] And then they had a vacation relief program at NBC, and they hired me for the summer.
[27:55] And vacation relief was an opportunity to do all types of different jobs, okay?
[28:02] And usually ran from maybe Memorial Day to Thanksgiving.
[28:08] Just so when people went on vacation, you feel informed, crazy, I was hired during
[28:13] and stage managing, but I had to join the director's guild, which is a good thing.
[28:19] And he told me, he said, now don't get comfortable because it's not going to last.
[28:24] You're going to get laid off.
[28:26] But I was hoping I would be able to go back into the scheduling, which happened, which
[28:29] actually happened.
[28:30] I went back into the scheduling around November, so I had the opportunity to work the
[28:34] Macy's for Raid that year.
[28:35] I went back and then they called me back again and said you know you gonna put
[28:42] you back at temporary case relief and the word is out around Durham and places
[28:54] that I'm working at NBC but I'm not that's all I'm doing it's working at
[29:00] NBC. I don't have any big contacts or anything going on. And I'm walking down Fifth Avenue
[29:09] one day and going to work. And this guy, I don't know if you're familiar with him, his
[29:18] name is Ernie Barnes. He's fast away. He was an artist. He did all the background paintings
[29:24] for good times. All those paintings in the background. And all those paintings are
[29:29] about Durham, Sugar Shack, the Arbidee Pool Room. That's all it's about. Okay. And he
[29:35] was having a show up on 57th Street someplace and he wanted me to come and I
[29:42] assumed, I don't know this to be a fact, but I was thinking that he's thinking
[29:46] maybe I could get him on a today's show, you know, but I wasn't... You didn't have any major content. I knew the people, but I wasn't there.
[30:00] And, uh,
[30:03] I'm doing this vacation relief thing, and I'm getting ready to get laid off again,
[30:08] and I get a phone call. I don't know how the guy tracked me down. I really don't. We became
[30:13] friends after this. But he tracked me down, and he said to me, and it was Jimmy Walker,
[30:20] by the way.
[30:21] Oh, my goodness.
[30:22] J.J.
[30:23] From Good Time.
[30:23] Yeah. And, see, David Letterman, Jay Leno, and Byron Allen were writers for Jimmy Walker.
[30:33] Oh my goodness, I never knew that.
[30:35] Yeah. Not for good times.
[30:38] Right.
[30:38] They stand up.
[30:39] Mm-hmm.
[30:40] Okay.
[30:41] Wow.
[30:41] Yeah. And he said that something like this guy named David Letterman is going to get
[30:48] the summer replacement show at NBC in the morning live from 9 to 10 30 so I
[30:56] meant Dave yeah I like to meet him you sure I don't you know he remembers this
[31:01] I mean a letterman but he said he said listen whatever happens don't get
[31:09] comfortable with this cuz it's not going to prepare yeah don't boy if only
[31:16] they knew. It didn't last. I know but look how far you went. But that show did not last.
[31:23] No, it was canceled. It was canceled. The relationship lasted. Oh yeah, that show was
[31:29] canceled. The morning show. That's six months. And I think they kept them on retainer. You
[31:35] know, I hope I'm being accurate. I'm not, I'm close to it. Anyway, now I'm getting
[31:40] ready to go back into this scheduling thing again. And I get a call from my
[31:46] boss to come into the office. And it was another guy, now also on the morning
[31:51] show, let me back up a second, let him in. I don't know what they thought about me,
[31:58] but they must have thought something was funny. His girlfriend at the time,
[32:05] Marko, she was the producer and I think she had something to do with it. I'm not sure.
[32:08] Anyway, when they said here's David Letterman instead of him coming out he pushed me out there
[32:16] I had no problem with that right I went down there, but he came right out and pushed me out the way
[32:21] So anyway, they started using me doing a little skits and stuff. So I had to join after
[32:27] Now I'm an after yeah
[32:30] Union yeah, both of them
[32:32] And after and then sag after join
[32:36] together eventually
[32:37] so
[32:38] they call me into the office and it's a guy from the director's guild sitting
[32:43] there and I'm telling you what in the world is this all about and a boy says to me
[32:49] he said we got a permanent position for you faith and destiny basically we
[32:54] talked about yeah and he said he said we got a permanent position for you a
[32:59] staff position I said oh this is great and that was in there after a few words
[33:03] And then as I'm getting up to leave, I know the fellow who discovered this thing, he was
[33:12] a staff guy.
[33:13] And so the guy from the director's guild said, aren't you going to tell them why he's got
[33:17] a permanent position?
[33:18] Well, the agreement between NBC, CBS and ABC at the time was that anyone that had a
[33:24] permanent assignment for six months had to be maybe a permanent employee.
[33:31] Now I'm in.
[33:33] And eventually time goes by and Letterman comes back with a late night show at NBC.
[33:39] And I did that with him for 11 years.
[33:43] We did the show basically, I think, four days a week, three weeks a month, which left
[33:47] me with the opportunity to do all kinds of other stuff.
[33:50] I was doing Miss America, Miss Everything, Space Shuttles, Super Bowls, you name
[33:58] all over the world.
[33:59] Everything was happening.
[34:00] money's being made, I'm married, my kids are coming along, everything's real cool.
[34:07] And then here comes this big button here with Jay Leno and the Tonight Show, okay, and Letterman
[34:16] says I'm out.
[34:19] And he goes to CBS but he wants me to come along with some other people that were working
[34:24] at NBC.
[34:25] you see. I had reservation about it because of the fact that who knew if it was gonna work.
[34:31] Yeah, who knew if it was gonna work. I got a job. I got a permanent job. But they were
[34:36] making offices that you can't refuse, it was hard. And I wasn't gonna go to California,
[34:41] and I didn't know what you were doing. They decided to do it at Ed Sullivan Theater.
[34:44] Things got better. Big shots of CBS had me come down there, and they said, yeah,
[34:50] You're coming, and they may ask for more icing on the cake.
[34:54] And we've been at CBS, I'm in NBC for 11 years, and then we did 22 years at CBS, 32 years
[35:02] all total.
[35:03] I was able to travel all over the place with Olympics and other things with the show.
[35:09] As a result of the show, I went to Bosnia twice, Afghanistan once, and Iraq twice,
[35:15] of the USO, you know, support troops, and all that,
[35:18] that only went, and Paul Schaefer, you know.
[35:23] And we always got along.
[35:25] I mean, he's a very, very generous guy.
[35:28] I don't say that because I work for him.
[35:29] You know, I just say it because it's a fact.
[35:31] And he does a lot of charity stuff, and it's very generous.
[35:36] Well, clearly he trusted you, which he should have
[35:37] because you're a big part of all of his shows.
[35:40] He made sure that you were, but people enjoyed.
[35:42] I was one of the people.
[35:43] Well, I appreciate that.
[35:45] Who enjoyed all the skits and your funny personality and your comments, Harry.
[35:52] People would ask me that question a lot of times, just not only in the street, but other
[35:57] places in interviews, they say, well, doesn't that bother you, weren't you nervous being
[36:02] on TV and all?
[36:03] I say, what is it to be concerned about when you don't know what you're doing?
[36:07] And it seemed very natural for you.
[36:09] And you were just, you were funny.
[36:10] You were, you know, you hear claims like you just became his famous producer, one of our
[36:16] favorite parts, one of our favorite, one of our favorite features from the day before.
[36:19] Well, you know, if it helped to make things work, it definitely did.
[36:26] And then I was on board.
[36:27] I had no problem with that.
[36:28] I have to ask you, so the media industry is known for not always treating its black
[36:34] black artists and producers fairly, and yet you were able to navigate the industry with
[36:40] much success.
[36:42] Thank you.
[36:43] Why do you think that is?
[36:45] Do you think you did something different?
[36:46] Do you think it was just ...
[36:48] Gene Sanders.
[36:49] Yeah.
[36:50] Okay.
[36:50] Yeah.
[36:51] Faith, destiny.
[36:52] Faith and destiny.
[36:53] I don't know, you know, but I know one thing, yeah, I was there to do a job, make
[37:00] it work and I wasn't kissing up to anybody or nothing like that.
[37:08] I can't honestly answer
[37:13] the question because I mean that's where I was pursuing it and I wasn't going to burn
[37:20] in the bridges.
[37:21] That's an important lesson though. One of my colleagues taught me I never burned bridges
[37:25] but you said something about your childhood and your upbringing that I think is important
[37:28] and two, which is that the entire time you were growing up,
[37:31] even though the community was separate but equal,
[37:33] that everyone that was around you
[37:35] held you to the highest standard.
[37:37] Not only me.
[37:38] Yep.
[37:39] And so I think that that,
[37:40] when we get into a professional work environment,
[37:42] those types of standards from our childhood kick in, you
[37:47] know?
[37:48] They do.
[37:48] And I'm sure you always delivered.
[37:50] They do.
[37:51] They do.
[37:51] I mean, I could sit here all day
[37:53] and talk for hours about different experiences
[37:56] that he'd probably say that's impossible. It didn't happen, but it did. I mean, just
[38:01] different things that really, really happened. I mean,
[38:09] it's a blessing.
[38:12] Have you ever googled yourself?
[38:14] For what?
[38:15] I googled you.
[38:16] I know you did.
[38:17] It's incredible. You're everywhere. You're everywhere. You've got pictures with Kobe
[38:23] Bryant, who's my favorite basketball player of all time. You've got pictures with
[38:26] Bruce Willis and Michael Strahan and Terry Gar and like how does it how do you
[38:31] feel when you're out about in the community and do people you're a
[38:35] celebrity. How do you handle that? I just have to deal with it I mean I can't get
[38:40] an attitude all the time. I mean I was in a drug store one day and I was ready
[38:45] because these kids working behind the counter were taking too long and I'm
[38:48] ready. I was I was actually in there with Michael Kay when he lived around here.
[38:56] I don't know if they recognize him, but I'm ready to tell these kids to hurry up, got to
[39:02] go and I turned around and somebody said, oh, hey, Biffin, I said, damn, I can't even
[39:06] get an attitude out here.
[39:08] I can't even get an attitude.
[39:10] So, you know, I mean, I don't know what to say, you know, but it's true.
[39:14] I mean, it's just, it's, what was your question?
[39:20] Is it hard to be a celebrity, like especially in a town like Greenberg, which is not huge,
[39:24] you know everybody kind of knows you. I mean I've gotten it other places. But let
[39:30] you know that you're getting older because most of the people are old and
[39:33] they'll be saying, hey, they're the speaking. I know a lot of the other kids.
[39:37] Now you might be aging, your energy is very young. Oh no, no, no. I'm talking
[39:42] about people who watch the show, who remember. You know, a lot of them, there's a
[39:49] lot of young young people you know I did you mention Kobe Bryant and those guys
[39:57] every time I hear those names stories come to mind yeah yeah I mean like Michael
[40:04] Strahan you know he used to use him a lot when the Giants were doing very well
[40:09] and winning Super Bowls and he was very good and very funny and once he stopped
[40:17] playing professional football and started getting into television and stuff and and he
[40:24] every time I'd see him he said to me he said you know not that I wasn't interested in this
[40:29] but the reason is because of you meaning me I didn't look at it that way I never thought
[40:33] he said you were the first one to put me on tv doing anything outside of a football field
[40:39] and I didn't know it I mean I didn't look at it it was crazy it was stupid
[40:42] But he's really wild with crazy stuff.
[40:46] And then, you know, you mentioned Kobe, God rest his soul.
[40:50] Yeah.
[40:51] What is the one thing, the one, maybe not story,
[40:54] what's the one piece of advice you would give
[40:56] to aspiring media professionals today?
[40:59] So we're coming out like Michael Strahan said,
[41:01] you kind of inspired him.
[41:02] Listen, the entertainment business in my opinion
[41:05] is only about two things.
[41:09] Temporary work and rejection.
[41:11] That's all it is.
[41:13] Nobody has a job.
[41:15] You know, they have projects.
[41:17] You might end up getting a job for a long period of time,
[41:20] but nine times out of ten, it doesn't last.
[41:24] We got blessed with 30-something years.
[41:27] That's very, very well.
[41:28] I think the show maybe still is the longest-running
[41:32] late-night show.
[41:33] I think Kimmel is catching up.
[41:34] He's close to 30, believe it or not.
[41:36] I think he's close to about 30.
[41:38] So, having said that, it's temporary work and rejection.
[41:41] I encourage everybody and anybody that wants to do this stuff to get to do it.
[41:47] We're talking in front of the camera now, okay?
[41:52] But, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, there's no guarantee.
[41:58] Yeah.
[41:58] I mean, it's kind of, I know people with more talent out here and people with talent
[42:02] that nobody will ever see because they can't handle that rejection.
[42:05] Yeah.
[42:05] It's tough.
[42:07] You need a thick skin.
[42:09] Oh.
[42:12] Trust me.
[42:14] Thank you so much for sharing everything you shared with us today and for being here.
[42:19] You're more than welcome.
[42:20] I enjoyed it.
[42:21] I hope it works out for you.
[42:23] Oh, thank you.
[42:23] I got to spend this time with you, so it's already worked out.
[42:26] Thank you so much, and we'll see you on our next African Diaspora experience.