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Down, council meeting 16-26. It is Tuesday, August 18.

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Thank you.

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On June 4th, the same group, or an overlapping membership of the same group, sent a letter to the town proposing another ordinance with the same exact title ordinance to launch the island rover vessel. And it did include a few changes, which I will mention. And I did submit a letter to the manager, town manager, and the town clerk regarding my opinion as to whether or not this

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This was an ordinance that in substance was the same ordinance, as had been the subject

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of a citizen's initiative that failed at the signature.

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It matters as to whether it's the same ordinance or different ordinance is that your charter

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under section 8.01 has a mandatory 120-day waiting period, so that if a citizen's group proposes

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in ordinance, it fails for whatever reason to get enough signatures, they cannot propose

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the same ordinance for 120 days. And I think you can understand the public policy purpose

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of doing that. There's a lot of town machinery and staff time that goes into managing this

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through correctly so that you're following your charter. And so I had to opine on whether

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not these ordinances were the same. As you know from my June 12 letter, I did indeed review

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the ordinances. I went through them very carefully, and I concluded that the combination of

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the way your charter language is worded, that the intent behind section 8.01 is to say that

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ordinances, if the ordinance is the same in substance as the prior ordinance, then the 120-day

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waiting period applies. In this case, a number of things were identical. This is still an ordinance

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whose mission and purpose was identically worded as the same. An ordinance to launch the island

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a one time launch of the island rover vessel through the same mechanism, which was to name a new

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use of temporary boat launching facility use and to send that through review through the code

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enforcement officer rather than the Coastal Waters Commission and potentially the Project

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Review Board.

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And almost entirely to a provision, this ordinance is the same.

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There are a few differences that I think were procedural, but before I get into the differences,

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One of the issues that was the same is that it still, there is an environmental impact

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standard which says that this use which does fall within the shoreland zone and extends

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into the resource, cannot have an adverse impact on various, I'll just shorthand wildlife

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habitat, spawning grounds, things like that.

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And the original proposed ordinance said that a temporary boat watching facility, if constructed and removed during a particular window of time, October to April, I don't have the exact dates, but that window of time, would be deemed to not cause an environmental and adverse environmental impact.

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That provision remains in the second ordinance with one minor change, which is to say that

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the temporary bullet launching facility, if constructed or removed within that window,

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would be deemed not to create an environmental impact.

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But in case there was an inadvertent environmental impact,

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that the applicant would have to do a remediation plan.

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So the other minor changes to this version of the ordinance, it did include a sunset

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clause of two years and it did include recommended DEP review.

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Of course, you know that any proposed ordinance that impacts the shoreline zone automatically

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exactly by state law needs to go to the DEP for review and approval and there are a couple

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of other minor revisions to the ordinance and in the end I concluded that in substance

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I believe these were the same ordinances and so the 120-day waiting period applies.

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That 120 days expires on August 20th, we're here on August 18th.

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I am aware that the attorney for some folks who live in the neighborhood who I think

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oppose this ordinance, Chris and Colin submitted a letter today.

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I did speak with Chris and briefly today as well and her opinion is that the council must

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just wait until the clerk has accepted this ordinance for processing before it can

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weigh in on what this agenda item asks you to do.

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I understand the arguments made by Ms. Collins.

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I don't agree with them.

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I think the charter provision in section 8.01 is broad enough to encompass and

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and anticipatory order from the Council giving guidance to the clerk.

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And that's how this order has been worded.

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It is true that you could say, well, the Council shouldn't take any action until there's

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been an acceptance, I think in the circumstance that we have in front of us and the fact that

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I believe if this is accepted for processing, there is a path for this to meet all of

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the requirements of Section 8.01 and if the signatures are validated this time to have

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this go to a vote at the November 3 statewide election.

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So I've thrown a lot at you.

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I'm happy to answer any questions, but I think the order that was drafted before you, much

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like the one in the spring, Section 8.01 says, look, if a group

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proposes an ordinance that they want to go through the citizens' initiative process.

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The council can look at it and decide, well, we'll just adopt that.

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You don't have to go through the citizens' initiative process.

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You have the authority to do that under the ordinance.

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You also can, in the alternative, decline to do that, decline to adopt the ordinance of your own initiative,

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and instead instruct the clerk to follow the 8.01 procedures in the event that the ordinance,

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the proposed ordinance is accepted for processing on August 20th.

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So the attempt of these two dueling options here are, do you wish to accept?

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Do you wish to send it forward in two days time, we'll know, and then your clerk will know

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So, I can get that she can get going on working through the steps in the charter process for this to go through signature gathering.

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I think I should probably stop there and see if there are any questions.

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If we decline to accept it, per the charter, the group has the right to pursue that avenue, whether or not we say that's okay or not, right?

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correct. This is, I mean, if this is accepted for processing, which I assume, if the

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petitioner still want to go through this process, it will then go through that process.

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So, really, the question is whether or not we want to bypass the process and just adopt it

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as a counsel.

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As is, correct.

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I think just to be clear, sort of, with this process, counsel has to respond.

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So it's how

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it's picking which avenue reflects our response to the citizens' initiative.

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Well, it's more towards the ordinance, do we want to accept the ordinance, as it is, as we say?

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No, let it go through the issue.

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Any thoughts?

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So I will say that, you know, looking at sort of the process of how we did this last time,

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Council didn't choose to put it out to collect signatures.

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I will say personally my opinion hasn't changed on the matter.

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My concerns still are the same.

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I would proceed that way.

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I would recommend we go that way.

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Yeah, I agree.

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I don't think anything's fundamentally changed.

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I respect the process as it's laid out in the charter.

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I wouldn't be in support of endorsing this as an ordinance.

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I don't think it's a bed and address so happy to have it go through the charter process

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and, you know, if they get the signatures, have it on the ballot and let the voters decide.

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Councillor Peltch.

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Is there a public hearing that we have to have on this point?

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So there is, and unfortunately it's going to create another special meeting.

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So the way this works, and Chris and Amy can correct me if I'm wrong.

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But we've mapped out on the infamous whiteboard if you were to send this to signature.

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It doesn't matter how many days they take them to collect it, they don't have any more than 30.

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At the end of that period, Chris then has a window of time to certify the signatures.

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The way that lines up, she would come back to you at your regularly scheduled October

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6 meeting and certify one way or the other, much like she did last time when she had that

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document all set up for you and told you that they didn't meet the number of signatures.

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At that point, you would call a public hearing that needs to happen within 10 days.

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So 10 days from that is a Friday, so we look back one day and we would say on October 15th,

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we would have to have a public hearing on the ordinance.

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You can do any other kind of information sessions you want or anything like that, but

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that's the one you need for to meet the charter requirements.

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and then from there, if you back up, if they're collecting signatures, you would set up our first.

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Once again call a municipal referendum election contingent upon their obtaining enough signatures and hit that.

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So we're still kind of running the regular election process in the background to make it conform to the charter.

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So you would be taking a lot of votes based on if they meet this criteria, not a lot, but a couple.

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This is what we would do next.

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And it lines up so that the question would be on the ballot in time for absentee balloting,

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and go through the regular November 3rd election.

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So distilling all that down a likely timeline could be two days from today, the clerk accepts the petition they go out and have some time to collect signatures.

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There's a public hearing sometime in October and it's on the ballot sometime in November, assuming all other things line up on the way.

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The only thing that I'm not thrilled about, but we can't address until we open the charter back up is that the way the ordinance works, we will have absentee ballots with a question on it before the actual public hearing happens.

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And when would the language be finalized for, you got it?

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So Amy and Chris actually work on that together and she formalizes that language at, we were

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doing that when they were circulating is that?

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I believe so, yes.

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So it's, you would have it when she certifies the election.

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You would have it when you call, not when they call the election but then there is, you sign

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the warrant, right, to sign the warrant so the question would be on that as well.

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Thanks, but again, the challenge with absentee.

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So under state law, absentees are available for 30 days prior to an election, so that means

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that absentee ballots would be available on the third, doesn't have to be certified until

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the 6th, we would work really hard to certify by the 3rd so that we know whether or not,

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but I mean that we are stepping into a little bit of a conundrum with the absentee ballot.

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There are a few sort of anticipatory things that need to be done that we won't know until

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the 30 days has expired, or we won't know for some days afterwards because obviously the

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the clerk needs to validate.

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And so one of those, as Sophie mentioned, is on your September 1st meeting, you have

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to file with clerk the question, because you've got to do that 60 days before the November

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3rd election, right?

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So you're going to be doing that.

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And then as well, because of the state law on absentee ballots, and when you need to make

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those available, there's this timing issue about

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I'm not creating the question that is going to appear on the warrant. If it ends up being validated, but we'll have to draft the questions ahead of time. We did this very similarly last time. I think Chris and I have it down, hopefully, from a process perspective. Okay.

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One more thought, the, again, sort of a rhetorical question, but just to clarify.

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If we choose not to just accept the ordinance as it is and send it out for referendum,

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we're not being asked to say, we like the ordinance, we dislike the ordinance, we think it's valid,

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we think all the points in it are right or wrong.

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That's not what's being asked of, and if so, then they have the right to submit this to vote.

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So, right now today, you're being asked whether or not you want to adopt it as it sits.

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When it is certified to you, that will be Chris saying the signatures have been obtained.

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Council has an absolute right to speak its mind in terms of if you had opinions and you

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wanted to provide opinions to the public about this ordinance, but you do not have to.

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There is no requirement of that.

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So I think if this process moves forward, Council might want to think about that.

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And you know, last time we had talked with DEP, they had started an informal review.

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we will do the same thing if you decide to go in the referendum direction will ask DEP to weigh in on this ordinance.

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The other thing that has come to our attention is that we don't have a lot of passenger vessels being launched for the first time,

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But that evidently takes a Coast Guard inspection process before they're allowed to hit the water and so I think there are some questions that we might have also of the Coast Guard that we would want to have answered just factual questions one way or the other.

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And I think you kind of touched on it a little bit of even if we decide we're not putting our opinion out there, we're not taking a stance.

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It doesn't mean we can't get information out there, so we can consider what that looks like as well.

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Of a neutral stance, but here's some information.

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I'd very much like to use our position to create the form, to be able for people to come and learn about.

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I think they're going to be a lot of questions about what is this thing in the ballot?

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What does it mean to the more information we can help facilitate the better?

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I think it would be really, well, I think if council decides to send it to referendum I think

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it would be very helpful if a committee, like special projects, thought about what that

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might look like so that we could maybe begin to frame that because it is actually a very

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short period of time that we have to work through here.

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We also have district meetings that could be helpful in sharing that information and providing an opportunity for people to ask those questions.

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We also have already on the calendar, which is great candidates forum, yes, on September 30th for the town election.

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And not on a religious holiday this time, awesome.

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Just to clarify, again, to reiterate this from the last time we went through this.

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If we were to say no, we want to pursue adopting this directly, we would still then have to have a schedule of public hearing, hold the public hearing, but regardless of what we heard at that public hearing, we couldn't change anything in the ordinance.

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So we would be asking for a public input, but not actually able to change anything because if we do not adopt it as it is, it then kicks back into the petition process.

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Yes, I think you're correct.

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I think what Amy will tell you is that it's, you cannot make substantive changes to the

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ordinance.

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No matter why at this point.

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And so this is why this is a little bit different for council because Freport is a unique

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community in that you have an applicant-led zoning amendment process where anybody in the

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community can go through the planning board process with an idea or language that they

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propose for a change to shoreland zoning or the zoning ordinance that would then go

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through this staff process of review with us talking with DEP and things get wordsmithed

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as you go through that process.

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And so, you are used to an applicant starting here and maybe ending up over here because

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there's been conversation back and forth that then goes through a planning board process

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where the planning board asks questions gets public feedback and may alter it some more as

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they make their recommendation to you, which then you go through a public hearing process

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and can send it back for revision and review.

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So, I think that's the difference in these two processes.

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You don't have that ability to take in information, make this conform with maybe state law, chapter 1000, other ordinances.

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This is a straight up or down pretty much, and Amy can correct me if I'm wrong.

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I think that's a pretty, pretty, that summary of.

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And I think that's a significant part of why I am in favor of sending this out to

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referendum because it's one of the very few times when we get an application, a petition

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essentially from a very small number of residents who have every right to bring us

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that concern, but then no matter how many other residents we hear from, we can't take that

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into account in terms of how we shape this ordinance.

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And so I think really from my perspective, the responsible thing to do is to send that

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back out to the voters, that to allow them to have that conversation and to weigh in essentially

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in two ways. One certainly is to support this by signing the petition, but then the other

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is to have those public conversations and decide how they feel about that.

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I would also just say that I appreciate the fact that the petitioners did hear some of the

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concerns that were voiced by the council. They did make amendments to what they brought to us.

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It is clarifying that it's a temporary boat launch for this specific one-time use.

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There is a sunset clause, all of those things.

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I think where I still have serious concerns about this is still the predetermination of

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environmental impact.

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And also the taking this out of coastal waters like every other thing that happens in the

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shoreland zone and putting it on to the code enforcement officer, which I think is really

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an unfair position to put the code enforcement officer in.

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So we will no doubt have lots more conversation about this, but for me it's really necessary

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to send it out through the petition process.

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I

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just want to note, for the record, the last time it went out through the petition process and

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it came back and it failed, what that means is not that there was a dearth of people signing you,

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but that they submitted the requisite number of signatures, but not all of them were valid.

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So they got what they thought was enough signatures, turns out that some were invalid.

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So that's why they proposed to do it again.

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But I concur with much of what you said.

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So I would support sending it out to referendum.

219
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That's been the consensus I've heard, one second.

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You can approach the podium and we'll have public comment in a moment.

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So I've heard mostly consensus about sort of the option that sends it out to the voters.

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Does anybody feel differently?

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Okay, and then before we move on, we'll open up the public comment.

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And again, this is the same signal that we announce yourself and keep your comments around three minutes.

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And we'll try to avoid repetition in the comments as well.

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00:39:36,710 --> 00:39:37,790
My name's Ken Murphy.

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I live on the cove where the launching would take place.

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And I've had a home there for some 42 years.

229
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One of my major concerns with the last petition was that it was misrepresented by those seeking getting signatures.

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For two hours, one Saturday, I stood behind the fellow, trying to solicit signatures.

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And he told all the people driving up to the transfer bin, would you please sign this?

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This is to launch the island rover.

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He made no mention whatsoever of the other aspect of the petition, which included temporary

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to vote ramps seven months of the year on that peninsula with no restrictions and no

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environmental concerns, et cetera.

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That wasn't mentioned until I intervened, and after a couple of hours from my own personal

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security, I thought I'd better get out of there.

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But it was misrepresented, and most of the signatures that didn't meet the quota were people

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who signed not thinking it was simply, let's launch the island rover, they knew nothing

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about the rest of it.

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My concern also is, what is the purpose of all of this temporary boat ramping?

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And the only thing I can think of is that Carter Becker has plans to transfer his

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Falls Point Marine there once that land is cleared and a temporary ramp is

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available seven months of the year. It would violate all kinds of zoning rules,

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but the legal process has taken very long and if you could get a few years of

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business there, I suspect that's what the goal is.

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So I would,

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the other issue, of course, is seeworthiness of this hall.

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And is it going to be 80 tons destroying the environment and dumped into a cove and capsizing

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and sitting there forever?

251
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I mean, that's a huge risk and one I don't think this council wants to take, thank you.

252
00:42:17,250 --> 00:42:18,510
Thank you very much.

253
00:42:19,790 --> 00:42:23,710
Good evening, my name is Maury Bohan, I also live on the cove.

254
00:42:24,350 --> 00:42:26,250
I have two technical questions.

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One is that, or maybe a point, that by being flexible on the 120-day rule, we impact when this election happens.

256
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So in other words, if you're flexible right now and accept this as discussion tonight,

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and it makes it on the November ballot, that's a very different election than a special election would be perhaps a month or two later.

258
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And I don't know who it favors to have this at a big election where everybody in town turns out,

259
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but it does impact it in some way.

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And so I just encourage you to think about that flexibility and how it potentially changes how the votes turn out.

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The other is to add to Ken's point is I would love if the town clerk might be, if that's the right person,

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might be charged with making sure that the title on this petition correctly address what's inside the petition.

263
00:43:18,690 --> 00:43:23,750
So if what's inside the petition is about a seven-month launch that is repeated year after year,

264
00:43:23,990 --> 00:43:27,550
then the title should not be to launch the island rover.

265
00:43:27,950 --> 00:43:33,310
It should be to encourage these launches to be loud, okay?

266
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And then the third thing I just want to say is I want to thank you all for being so clear-headed.

267
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And I think I'm hearing that perhaps you're going to turn this over to a vote.

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And I believe the reason that's right is because while we have great confidence in our

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code enforcers that no ordinance should be allowed that exempt structures from environmental

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performance standards that are normally upheld by the Coast of Waters Commission.

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So thank you.

272
00:44:00,110 --> 00:44:10,630
Yeah, and I'll take a second to respond as well, or I think Sophie mentioned that with this process, you know, part of the restraints are we can't change anything. It's a vote of and down, including on the title.

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00:44:11,470 --> 00:44:26,370
And in terms of aligning it with the November 3rd election, I think, strategy here and or there. I think this is a topic that has a lot of our community really engaged and involved in the more people we have voting on at the better.

274
00:44:26,370 --> 00:44:30,250
And that will certainly be on the November 3rd election, so yeah, thank you.

275
00:44:30,270 --> 00:44:34,070
One more thing, and that's both brought up the length of time that these are here.

276
00:44:34,470 --> 00:44:41,970
It's sunsets in two years, so it's only, you launch it, you get one more year, that's it.

277
00:44:49,190 --> 00:44:49,730
Yeah,

278
00:44:53,090 --> 00:44:54,990
I thought that that meant that

279
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No one could first put in their first launch after the two years, but that if you started it now, it would go forever. Did I misread that? So, whatever anybody does, it's only for two years. Yeah, so Amy, can you see what your thoughts are on that? Yeah, I mean, the language reads, this ordinance shall become effective immediately as of the date of adoption, subject to DEP reviews from the effective date.

280
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So if the construction or removal of a temporary boat watching facility during the seven month window occurs within that two-year period, then this is captured.

281
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I mean, wouldn't it be a use like any other land use which is once you're gathered, once you gather the right to do it, you can't expand it, but you can continue doing it.

282
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And you can construct it, yes.

283
00:45:56,900 --> 00:46:04,720
And even if the ordinance, the zoning ordinance goes back to not including that as unallowed use,

284
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:13,640
if it's already there, the question is, would it be a sort of grandfathered nonconforming use?

285
00:46:14,100 --> 00:46:18,980
Well, I understand that you're building it each year and you're taking it down each year.

286
00:46:18,980 --> 00:46:28,020
So it's not permanent, and it's a temporary, you couldn't build another temporary one, even if you, that's the way I do.

287
00:46:28,540 --> 00:46:37,560
So I'm going to stand up for Amy here for just a moment to say that the question in front of us is not what the ordinance says or doesn't say.

288
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The question in front of us is, do you want to adopt it the way it currently reads or do you want to send it to the clerk?

289
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I would like to just flag that as maybe some future context to sort out.

290
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I would give Amy time to think about that.

291
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I think that's a fair question.

292
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:58,760
I think a question that I would like to study further.

293
00:46:59,060 --> 00:47:04,460
But the definition of a temporary built launching facility is a facility that may remain

294
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in or over the water for no more than seven months in any 12 consecutive month period.

295
00:47:09,580 --> 00:47:16,460
So, if we have this thing constructed and it takes four and a half months to construct it, and no launch happens,

296
00:47:17,820 --> 00:47:23,040
I mean, there is a way to read this as saying it has to be removed within seven months.

297
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It's temporary.

298
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So, I think there's a seven-month window to construct launch and remove, is one way to look at this.

299
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:33,780
That can't happen.

300
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You can't build it because the ordinance is gone.

301
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:46,540
It's not like it becomes an enforcement problem within seven months, it's still there, it shouldn't be there after seven months, and they have to start all over again.

302
00:47:46,980 --> 00:48:04,080
Right, but they're implying what they've read is that once he starts doing it, once the person builds it the first time, you build it the second time and the interpretation is it can keep going because he's built it the first time, that's their fear.

303
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:10,120
And because it's a temporary and it has to be taken down each year.

304
00:48:10,380 --> 00:48:18,200
It doesn't get, this ordinance doesn't get renewed even if he wanted to build whoever wants to build one.

305
00:48:18,300 --> 00:48:24,200
There isn't an opportunity to do that because it's for two years to build a temporary.

306
00:48:24,820 --> 00:48:31,640
It's not like it's permanent and it's staying there and then yeah, we said that gets grandfathered in, right?

307
00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:32,740
Great if it was a permanent one.

308
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Great.

309
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:37,120
I think if you want to say that a little bit more, Amy.

310
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Yeah, I think that's fair.

311
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:44,320
Yeah, and another point for making sure that we have information sessions.

312
00:48:44,500 --> 00:48:44,640
Yes.

313
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:45,880
Good to be out there.

314
00:48:45,980 --> 00:48:46,540
It's a good question.

315
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:47,160
Thank you.

316
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:49,280
Go ahead, sir.

317
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:52,100
Yes, Michael Delahunt, I live on the cove.

318
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So my concern is you folks are overseeing our town.

319
00:48:59,460 --> 00:49:06,760
you're doing a great job, all the work you do. And yet, this comes to the people. Five pages,

320
00:49:07,300 --> 00:49:15,880
sign this, please. Read all this legalese. And it says on the front, a one-time launch.

321
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:28,940
And then why do you need within seven months, within any 12 months? That's not consistent. That's

322
00:49:28,940 --> 00:49:35,980
It's deceitful or misleading, I don't know what words you want, but this is what's

323
00:49:35,980 --> 00:49:40,920
being placed in front of the public. And I've gone out there and I've been chatting

324
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with folks when they're trying to get signatures and all that. And then I have to erase

325
00:49:45,660 --> 00:49:52,600
back all these things so that they make, I show them the papers. I yellow mark them.

326
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And there's all these exemptions in here.

327
00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:04,240
to all these things. And none of that is explained to them. And so I think the process

328
00:50:04,240 --> 00:50:12,100
I like the fact that an individual can, you know, promote their concerns, but then

329
00:50:12,100 --> 00:50:19,440
to misuse what we've given them, it seems like there should be some oversight to say,

330
00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:28,340
Okay. Okay. This, this, this doesn't fly. You can't get this to the public. It's misrepresenting.

331
00:50:28,980 --> 00:50:31,380
When do you folks have to step in and do that?

332
00:50:32,300 --> 00:50:43,140
So, um, the council at any time can speak on just about any issue. But I will just say the

333
00:50:43,140 --> 00:50:54,940
The charter is the document that the town meeting and voters agreed to when they formed a town council or representative form of government.

334
00:50:55,580 --> 00:51:07,220
That charter is the sums up the breadth of responsibility that they and authority that the town was willing to vest in the town council.

335
00:51:07,220 --> 00:51:14,620
So, when the charter says Council, you cannot make any substantive changes to this. Council,

336
00:51:15,180 --> 00:51:21,740
the town attorney must look at this, and the town attorney is the only one that can make any change to this,

337
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and it cannot be substantive. The Council can't overrule a charter. It's not like an ordinance that the council could simply say,

338
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:38,140
We don't like this. We now see that we, it's too far this way and we need to bring it back this way, which is what we see with the other 68

339
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:46,940
ordinances we have. The charter only way to change the charter is to open it back up and take it out to a

340
00:51:46,940 --> 00:51:55,500
referendum and it is a lengthy process. One that I'm going to be suggesting council do because this process does not line in

341
00:51:55,500 --> 00:52:01,780
well with existing state law on elections. And that will be a time that the residents can

342
00:52:01,780 --> 00:52:07,140
speak to, wait, we want counsel to have more control over that. But also understand

343
00:52:07,140 --> 00:52:16,780
this provision was my hunch put in to give the voters an opportunity to check the town

344
00:52:16,780 --> 00:52:22,940
council. So I don't think they would want to give the council a lot of authority to check

345
00:52:22,940 --> 00:52:29,100
voters who were trying to curb something that council was doing that the community didn't like.

346
00:52:29,580 --> 00:52:35,780
So it's a balancing act and it's one of those things where you play it out and I would encourage

347
00:52:35,780 --> 00:52:42,280
people who feel strongly on either side of this position to be contacting council to talk about

348
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:48,460
what information would be important for them to get out to the public, what venues you think would

349
00:52:48,460 --> 00:52:55,540
be good venues to have, whether or not you want the council to speak on this and try to come

350
00:52:55,540 --> 00:53:03,400
to some agreement or vote on whether they want to promote it or oppose it. So, there are places

351
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:11,460
to go arguing about whether or not they can make substantive changes to the title or the ordinance

352
00:53:11,460 --> 00:53:14,900
is kind of a no-go because their hands are tied.

353
00:53:16,140 --> 00:53:19,380
I'm not really saying, you know, I like or don't like it.

354
00:53:19,640 --> 00:53:26,720
I just find when there's a lack of truth in something, it just makes me lose faith

355
00:53:26,720 --> 00:53:27,440
in the system.

356
00:53:27,740 --> 00:53:34,100
So I think, too, this is why you're hearing the Council say over, again, that it feels

357
00:53:34,100 --> 00:53:39,640
really important and responsible, it's private responsibility, along with you and everybody

358
00:53:39,640 --> 00:53:45,420
who's passionate about this, to do the education, and I think Council has made it clear we're going to

359
00:53:47,260 --> 00:53:51,640
dedicate time and effort into making sure we do our best to get that out there.

360
00:53:52,100 --> 00:53:52,260
Thank you.

361
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:54,280
Yeah.

362
00:53:54,660 --> 00:53:59,740
I just want to address because I've heard it from a couple of different folks about the signature

363
00:53:59,740 --> 00:54:08,880
gathering process, and this is not specific to this referendum, it's specific to all signature

364
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:23,580
We see it at the state level where the Secretary of State needs to craft a ballot question that encompasses a law that's pages long or an amendment to something that's pages long.

365
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:33,940
And for whether it's volunteer signature gatherers or paid signature gatherers, they're trying to get your attention in a matter of seconds.

366
00:54:33,940 --> 00:54:39,200
and they're trying to get you with the smallest sound bite that will get your attention.

367
00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:44,680
And I have found repeatedly whether it's at the polls here in Freeport,

368
00:54:44,860 --> 00:54:51,200
if it's in the parking lot at Haniford, if it's in Bow Street at the transfer station,

369
00:54:52,940 --> 00:55:02,520
very often the signature gatherer cannot explain to me the full breadth of what they're asking me to sign.

370
00:55:04,780 --> 00:55:09,240
And when I ask probing questions, do not have the answers.

371
00:55:09,700 --> 00:55:13,700
So I don't think that that's unique to this situation.

372
00:55:14,500 --> 00:55:23,040
I would say that that's really on the citizens, that when someone approaches you to sign something, you should understand what you're being asked to sign.

373
00:55:23,140 --> 00:55:26,960
And if you don't, you should think twice about signing that perhaps.

374
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:31,720
Because I did hear from folks, I've heard from folks in a number of things.

375
00:55:31,720 --> 00:55:36,240
This ballot question and others where they only heard later or

376
00:55:36,240 --> 00:55:39,540
only realize later what they were actually being asked to sign.

377
00:55:42,340 --> 00:55:44,180
Hi, my name is Joe Bohan.

378
00:55:44,820 --> 00:55:48,100
I live on the cold then coming him road.

379
00:55:49,020 --> 00:55:52,420
I actually had stuff written, but everyone's asked those questions.

380
00:55:52,860 --> 00:55:58,320
So at the risk of being told by my wife that I have to walk home, I'm going to say a few comments.

381
00:55:59,820 --> 00:56:06,700
First of all, what I do for a living, I develop pharmaceutical drugs, I develop scientific instrumentation.

382
00:56:07,260 --> 00:56:19,620
In Carter, I'm probably the most supportive guy to say we have to do a critical design review, both environmentally and structurally of what's going on.

383
00:56:19,900 --> 00:56:23,640
We're not going to divulge any of this stuff because I hear we're going to have a public forum, right?

384
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:27,160
Right? Amy, you know, what we've, so we'll do that.

385
00:56:27,380 --> 00:56:29,760
I understand that process, Daniel, I got that now.

386
00:56:30,380 --> 00:56:35,320
The other question I have is, who should be the point person on the committee?

387
00:56:35,720 --> 00:56:38,260
Because we don't want to del-village everybody here.

388
00:56:38,500 --> 00:56:45,100
So what's the process for feeding information to you so that we can make citizens aware of things?

389
00:56:46,100 --> 00:56:56,300
I would say if you send them through my office, I can get them headed in the right place among my staff with Amy with the council.

390
00:56:56,780 --> 00:56:59,880
So what is the email address now?

391
00:57:00,060 --> 00:57:01,020
I know we had updated it.

392
00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:04,400
Oh no, it's back to council at freeportmain.com.

393
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:13,100
So council at freeportmain.com goes to all of us up here and then also to Sophie and the assistant town manager.

394
00:57:13,100 --> 00:57:17,560
So that's one way, one stop shop there, for sure.

395
00:57:18,060 --> 00:57:22,000
Can I make a clarification if I understood the question?

396
00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:36,700
The question is how do citizens who feel that this ordinance is misleading in some way get information out into the community about what really the ordinance does or does not do?

397
00:57:37,180 --> 00:57:38,420
Is that the question?

398
00:57:38,420 --> 00:57:41,420
No, not real part of it, part of it, I hear that.

399
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:47,560
You have constraints about the wording of the ordinance and all that, I get it, I got that, okay.

400
00:57:47,860 --> 00:57:49,860
Do I agree with it or not besides the point?

401
00:57:50,480 --> 00:58:00,120
What I'm more interested in is, we've had a significant amount of, because of what I do for a living, right?

402
00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:06,460
I remember one, I'm an entrepreneur, so it would break my heart to have to cut the stand vote until it breaks my heart.

403
00:58:06,460 --> 00:58:13,900
So, we have gone and I made sure we've done critical design reviews of everything here.

404
00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:21,080
And I haven't disclosed a lot, I tried to disclose it but I was told the other side didn't want to be involved, okay, fine.

405
00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:28,480
So, we've done our own thing but now we want to know how do we disseminate that information because I thought we would have to go through you.

406
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:35,280
But what I'm hearing is it goes through the committee so all of you become aware of our information in the future.

407
00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:38,520
When you say the committee, I guess I'm not sure I understand that.

408
00:58:39,020 --> 00:58:39,840
Council, council.

409
00:58:41,220 --> 00:58:44,180
I mean, make some general statements and Sophie, you can correct me.

410
00:58:44,300 --> 00:58:44,560
I don't know.

411
00:58:44,900 --> 00:58:49,680
I mean, the council has every council has its own kind of ways of dealing with things.

412
00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:55,300
From my perspective as the legal council to the town, there is some information that the

413
00:58:55,300 --> 00:58:58,640
town itself and town staff you heard Sophie reference a couple of them.

414
00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:04,180
One is a review, depending on what the council does, but if the council does decline to take

415
00:59:04,180 --> 00:59:10,880
action and put it in the clerk's hands to go through this process, then I understand

416
00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:16,600
that the town will follow up with DEP who already has begun to weigh in to get something

417
00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:21,720
more formal in writing. I think that's something the town will do. I've also heard something

418
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:30,820
about potential Coast Guard outreach and information comes back from an agency like that that might

419
00:59:30,820 --> 00:59:35,500
By impact this ordinance, that seems appropriate for the town to do.

420
00:59:36,260 --> 00:59:41,740
If citizens on both sides, either side of the issue, want to get information to the public.

421
00:59:42,200 --> 00:59:49,440
Don't really see the council as being the feeder of deciding what's accurate and what's not and putting that out.

422
00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:54,720
Just like any other state ballot question that gets put on.

423
01:00:00,050 --> 01:00:29,570
For vote, both sides, multiple sides can put information out into the community as you would. And I'm thinking of more like the League of Women Voters, where Daniel was talking about its neutral. Procon information, if I'm a voter, I go to a source to gather the information. So that's what I was just trying to answer. And I've had this issue before. So in this citizens, you know, when you have a citizen's initiative, the town's role is to, I think, be in terms of town staff.

424
01:00:29,570 --> 01:00:33,690
Obviously town council can have its own opinions and they can make that public.

425
01:00:34,110 --> 01:00:42,930
In terms of what staff is here to do, it's to determine what facts may be relevant with

426
01:00:42,930 --> 01:00:44,870
this ordinance and get that.

427
01:00:44,970 --> 01:00:49,290
I've knew about this critical design review we've done then there are multiple ways to do

428
01:00:49,290 --> 01:00:49,550
that.

429
01:00:49,770 --> 01:00:53,570
I would not particularly see the council being involved in it.

430
01:00:53,830 --> 01:00:58,330
Same goes for the folks who think that there's an issue with this.

431
01:00:58,810 --> 01:01:06,330
I don't see that fading through the council or the chair, either, unless that's something that you have uniquely done in, in, in free port.

432
01:01:06,650 --> 01:01:16,470
No, and I think, you know, it's good old fashioned campaigning, science, public, or letters of the editor, avenues like that, and, you know, we'll create the space for discussion.

433
01:01:17,150 --> 01:01:17,870
Thank you, okay.

434
01:01:17,870 --> 01:01:18,750
Hi,

435
01:01:24,520 --> 01:01:25,120
good evening, everyone.

436
01:01:25,280 --> 01:01:26,180
My name's Tim Forster.

437
01:01:26,500 --> 01:01:28,280
I'm a professional well-in-scientist

438
01:01:28,280 --> 01:01:30,880
and one of five certified ecological restoration

439
01:01:30,880 --> 01:01:32,360
practitioners in the state of Maine.

440
01:01:33,080 --> 01:01:35,100
I'm here on behalf of the,

441
01:01:35,540 --> 01:01:37,240
of butters, the direct butters

442
01:01:37,240 --> 01:01:39,240
in the surrounding residents of Raspberry Cove.

443
01:01:40,460 --> 01:01:43,160
I have a lot to say about this project,

444
01:01:43,160 --> 01:01:44,600
but I'll skip that for this evening

445
01:01:44,600 --> 01:01:46,560
and just go for a clarifying question.

446
01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:50,440
And that is the process here,

447
01:01:50,440 --> 01:01:57,240
which honestly was kind of heartbreaking that people can come and speak at a public forum,

448
01:01:57,240 --> 01:02:02,580
but you can't act on the information they give you. And to me that's fundamentally wrong.

449
01:02:04,720 --> 01:02:09,620
But the general processes goes to vote. Let's assume they get enough votes that are valid.

450
01:02:10,500 --> 01:02:18,020
And then at that point it may go to DEP to become involved. So there's an article out there

451
01:02:18,020 --> 01:02:20,960
that people are looking at that may be correct, it may be incorrect.

452
01:02:21,340 --> 01:02:26,640
I mean, I could come forward and say, I want to build a rocket launch pad, and I could

453
01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:27,100
get that.

454
01:02:28,460 --> 01:02:30,180
It's kind of hard before the horse.

455
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:36,820
So then there's this public hearing where we can speak, but you don't get to do anything

456
01:02:36,820 --> 01:02:44,060
with that information, but Amy is allowed to take some action on the language of the ordinance

457
01:02:44,060 --> 01:02:49,700
to some degree is that correct, you can make some changes, but not substantive, is that, is that right?

458
01:02:49,980 --> 01:03:00,460
Yeah, I mean Section 8.01 of the charter does give the town attorney a review opportunity before the ordinance is submitted to the voters.

459
01:03:01,460 --> 01:03:06,980
So I see that as an earlier opportunity and probably happening before the public hearing.

460
01:03:06,980 --> 01:03:22,880
Okay. And then, at what point, if DEP is making comments, let's just say, and I think it's quite possible, that this in no way meets chapter 1000 shoreline zoning standards and far exceeds them.

461
01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:30,820
How then does this get kiboshed, as it should, because it's a poorly written document?

462
01:03:30,820 --> 01:03:37,340
Well, there are a lot of different things to speculate upon, but what I would say in general,

463
01:03:37,820 --> 01:03:43,560
I would hope, again, the council has been voted on this yet, but I would hope that if

464
01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:49,660
it goes down the path of following section 8.01 of the charter, the town staff will be

465
01:03:49,660 --> 01:03:55,780
reaching out to DEP to get a formal written response, and ideally before the public hearing

466
01:03:55,780 --> 01:04:02,180
is scheduled. So I mean, I think it would be helpful to have that information from

467
01:04:02,180 --> 01:04:08,440
DEP probably after the last day of the signature validation date, which will be somewhere

468
01:04:08,440 --> 01:04:15,840
in the latest September timeframe, maybe third week of September, but before the public

469
01:04:15,840 --> 01:04:20,100
hearing, assuming that enough signatures are valid.

470
01:04:20,100 --> 01:04:35,040
We don't town can't control what DEP does or doesn't do, so that leaves it in the hands of folks who are concerned about that to make clear that they're concerned that DEP might have a problem with a particular provision.

471
01:04:35,320 --> 01:04:47,920
What I can say legally is this ordinance does have a severability clause, and that that's a fancy legal way of saying if there's something that is deemed unconstitutional or improper or

472
01:04:47,920 --> 01:04:54,000
The violative of state law, in this case, Chapter 1000, and the town is informed of that

473
01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:59,900
by a state agency that that provision would need to come out of this proposed ordinance.

474
01:05:00,240 --> 01:05:04,600
That doesn't mean the entire ordinance comes out, but it does mean that people looking at

475
01:05:04,600 --> 01:05:13,100
it would have to look at how this, what impact that would have and whether that, you know, whether

476
01:05:13,100 --> 01:05:17,720
that would guide the voter to say, should I vote for this or not?

477
01:05:19,480 --> 01:05:20,460
Thank you very much.

478
01:05:26,290 --> 01:05:30,430
I just wanted to make another comment about the timing concern.

479
01:05:31,090 --> 01:05:38,010
I want to acknowledge that all seven councillors are here for a second regular meeting in

480
01:05:38,010 --> 01:05:45,270
August that we are not actually supposed to have, and we're here primarily to talk about this issue.

481
01:05:45,270 --> 01:05:50,530
So if Amy decided we had to be here two days later, we'd be here two days later.

482
01:05:51,170 --> 01:06:03,410
Because I think we take seriously the charter, we take seriously the right of the residents of Freport to exercise their rights to bring their petitions to us and for us to respond to them.

483
01:06:04,290 --> 01:06:14,430
And we've worked diligently with Amy, with the manager, with the clerk to make sure that there is a way to get this.

484
01:06:14,430 --> 01:06:32,830
if it gets the ballot, if we vote to send it out to signature, if the signatures are validated that it gets on the November ballot because as the chair said regardless of who it favors something that's going out to the voters should go to the most amount of voters possible.

485
01:06:34,710 --> 01:06:42,710
And part of, so that's the fundamental reason, the other reason is we don't want to go to a special election because it costs a lot of money.

486
01:06:43,930 --> 01:06:51,470
We would like to keep that cost down and keep it to where we already have owners who are expecting to go and vote on things.

487
01:06:56,900 --> 01:06:58,400
And do you have any comment online?

488
01:06:59,020 --> 01:06:59,400
I don't think so.

489
01:06:59,880 --> 01:07:01,180
So we'll close the public comment.

490
01:07:01,340 --> 01:07:03,260
Thank you for speaking and for coming out.

491
01:07:03,580 --> 01:07:04,160
I'm much appreciated.

492
01:07:06,040 --> 01:07:06,920
Can I make a motion?

493
01:07:07,380 --> 01:07:08,500
Yes, please go ahead.

494
01:07:09,480 --> 01:07:15,460
Beat order that the town council following the clerk's acceptance for processing on or about August

495
01:07:15,460 --> 01:07:21,820
22, 2026, of a proposed ordinance entitled ordinance to launch the Islander Overbessel,

496
01:07:22,180 --> 01:07:29,240
submitted on June 4th, 2026 by a group of five residents, declines to take further action on said proposed ordinance,

497
01:07:29,720 --> 01:07:35,380
and directs the town clerk to provide appropriate petition forms, including copies of said proposed ordinance,

498
01:07:35,380 --> 01:07:43,160
to be circulated by petitioners to qualified voters for signature in accordance with Section 8.01 of the Town Charter and State Law.

499
01:07:43,700 --> 01:07:44,020
Second.

500
01:07:44,740 --> 01:07:45,560
All those in favor?

501
01:07:46,840 --> 01:07:47,040
Aye.

502
01:07:47,280 --> 01:07:47,840
That's everybody.

503
01:07:49,580 --> 01:07:50,280
All right.

504
01:07:56,100 --> 01:08:00,120
All right, moving on to our second public comment period.

505
01:08:00,320 --> 01:08:01,560
Thank you, Amy, very much.

506
01:08:01,760 --> 01:08:02,240
Have a great night.

507
01:08:04,630 --> 01:08:06,810
So this is for folks who are virtual.

508
01:08:07,530 --> 01:08:09,670
Is there anyone who would like to speak on items on the agenda?

509
01:08:11,470 --> 01:08:13,490
Okay, we'll go ahead and close public comment.

510
01:08:15,150 --> 01:08:19,590
All right, other business is the only item is the Dunning Boatyard update.

511
01:08:19,970 --> 01:08:26,650
Just a brief report back from our first ad hoc Dunning Boatyard committee last night.

512
01:08:27,630 --> 01:08:32,490
We had a great, a great interest in folks who wanted to be on the committee, which I thought was great.

513
01:08:32,690 --> 01:08:33,910
So how many times can I say great?

514
01:08:34,090 --> 01:08:34,570
It was wonderful.

515
01:08:36,110 --> 01:08:40,910
So that speaks to sort of the importance of that spot as a working waterfront resource

516
01:08:40,910 --> 01:08:43,010
and as a beloved asset to the community.

517
01:08:44,410 --> 01:08:50,550
So with the timeline that we discussed, we will be meeting again in doing a site visit

518
01:08:50,550 --> 01:08:56,150
in September before going into the visioning process, again with that outcome really being

519
01:08:56,530 --> 01:09:03,270
a report to the council of potential uses and ideas for the space with the understanding

520
01:09:03,270 --> 01:09:11,590
that council has directed that we would like to see it as a working waterfront and public recreation resource in perpetuity.

521
01:09:14,910 --> 01:09:23,930
There was really good conversation around making sure that we're looking at it in the broader context of the town, especially in a little bit of our neighboring region as well.

522
01:09:24,390 --> 01:09:30,530
In terms of what's happening there, that's not happening in other places that would be hard to lose.

523
01:09:31,190 --> 01:09:37,970
what are gaps in the town, in the region, around working waterfront needs that this could potentially fulfill.

524
01:09:40,230 --> 01:09:47,750
And we did our best to sort of make this ad hoc committee a group of subject matter experts,

525
01:09:47,750 --> 01:09:54,330
but also we'll be doing a little bit of outreach to the users to provide input on the space as well.

526
01:09:54,330 --> 01:09:55,290
So

527
01:10:00,120 --> 01:10:08,240
the other issue that comes up with Dunning-Botyard is that we have an executed lease that goes through September 30th.

528
01:10:08,500 --> 01:10:16,040
That lease was very clear that there was no expectation of renewal or extension beyond that.

529
01:10:16,600 --> 01:10:26,040
It's also pretty clear that we're not going to be at a point for Council to really be considering this matter by the 30th of September.

530
01:10:26,040 --> 01:10:34,960
I do not have any direction from council as to whether or not you would like me to place

531
01:10:34,960 --> 01:10:43,760
this matter on the council, another council meeting with a proposed extension or you know

532
01:10:44,240 --> 01:10:49,180
where does council want me to go which is why this is other business if it needs an extension

533
01:10:49,180 --> 01:10:54,060
then I need to have some conversation with Carter and draft up a document for you guys to consider.

534
01:10:55,420 --> 01:11:01,900
And if you're going to send me down that, could you give me a sense of how long we would be looking at?

535
01:11:02,120 --> 01:11:04,960
If you would like to extend it, what is the period you're looking at?

536
01:11:05,240 --> 01:11:12,200
And to provide a little more context so that report from the ad hoc committee we anticipate by the end of the year.

537
01:11:12,640 --> 01:11:20,080
However, we had also talked about that being sort of just one milestone because then after that we would have council discussion

538
01:11:20,080 --> 01:11:29,040
But we talked about community engagement to get input from the larger population around the space so I don't think the end of the year is the end of our

539
01:11:30,260 --> 01:11:33,920
We're not going to have everything we need a plan in place by then

540
01:11:35,120 --> 01:11:40,560
So I say that to kind of help with if we're thinking about what to do with the lease. That's important information

541
01:11:41,900 --> 01:11:48,760
Can you remind me who's on the committee and the subject matter expertise we have?

542
01:11:49,520 --> 01:11:57,500
Yes, so we have Mike Morrissey, who's the chair of Coastal Waters, Mike Ashby, who unfortunately wasn't able to make it, but we'll make sure he's updated.

543
01:11:58,520 --> 01:12:08,340
Ford, Raiki, Tom Schwarm, who's a community member, Dick, I forget his last name.

544
01:12:09,120 --> 01:12:09,380
Merrick.

545
01:12:09,460 --> 01:12:11,620
Yes, who is also a committee member and a butt's the property.

546
01:12:11,620 --> 01:12:18,080
We have Emerson Goodwetch who works for the Main Coast Fisherman's Association and

547
01:12:19,740 --> 01:12:28,740
Councillor Smith and myself and Jessica Joyce who works for the state and is actually the University of Maine and is a

548
01:12:29,520 --> 01:12:33,160
professional in terms of waterfront access planning.

549
01:12:33,160 --> 01:12:33,700
Thank you.

550
01:12:33,740 --> 01:12:33,820
Great.

551
01:12:34,280 --> 01:12:34,640
Thank you.

552
01:12:35,280 --> 01:12:41,840
Sophie, did we get any other information back from assessments of the physical flant?

553
01:12:42,800 --> 01:12:50,280
So we had, we elected to bypass another engineering report that was going to cost $24,000.

554
01:12:51,370 --> 01:13:01,100
We sent in Tom Wright and Ford who both had a pretty extensive rehabilitation of waterfront

555
01:13:01,100 --> 01:13:06,980
And marine type properties, there is my

556
01:13:09,220 --> 01:13:11,240
sense, I've not gotten anything in writing from

557
01:13:11,240 --> 01:13:15,860
them that I can share, but my sense is that adage of an old building is not going to

558
01:13:15,860 --> 01:13:20,880
meet codes, can turn everybody into liars because it can stay for another 20 years.

559
01:13:22,960 --> 01:13:29,320
So the idea is that there are some adjustments that likely would have to be made, I've heard

560
01:13:29,320 --> 01:13:34,180
things like getting rid of the mezzanines, you know, like there are some things that are suggesting

561
01:13:34,180 --> 01:13:42,580
and some elements that we could maybe look at. So I don't know that it's total tear down.

562
01:13:42,660 --> 01:13:48,860
I think we are for, unless we bring it up to code, we are for going the property

563
01:13:49,820 --> 01:13:57,420
coverage on the building. But the liability should sit, at least for, unless we started to see

564
01:13:57,420 --> 01:13:59,580
some significant signs that it was failing.

565
01:14:03,240 --> 01:14:05,500
So that's kind of where we are.

566
01:14:06,780 --> 01:14:07,820
That's an interesting point.

567
01:14:08,080 --> 01:14:12,120
What would those signs be and how would we look for them?

568
01:14:12,480 --> 01:14:15,120
And on would it be an active look?

569
01:14:15,380 --> 01:14:17,380
Would it be at a regular cadence?

570
01:14:18,080 --> 01:14:25,420
I still do have concerns like, I mean, we got the report and I understand there's context

571
01:14:25,420 --> 01:14:54,740
for that. But we're also a landlord and I do take that life safety responsibility seriously and I want to make sure we're not just saying oh well we got there important we talked about that couple of months ago and now you know what do we do next like they'll just move on yeah I mean I think you can do affirmative inspections you can look for wood to start giving swaying you see

572
01:15:00,810 --> 01:15:28,450
I mean, I'm not an expert. I'm just, you know, you can see when, when things start to kind of go out of shape, you can. And we can also see that main municipal association has paid municipalities or had in the past for several roofs that collapsed in buildings that there is going to be rest in no matter what you do.

573
01:15:28,450 --> 01:15:32,690
Now, my question was more not like what's the actual checklist, but

574
01:15:32,690 --> 01:15:40,590
bringing the topic up, and is this a, we have Nick take a look every quarter,

575
01:15:41,490 --> 01:15:47,170
something like that, to just assure us that it seems like it's still in this

576
01:15:47,170 --> 01:15:55,190
steady state that it was, I just, what do we do, because I don't want to just pretend like it's not an issue?

577
01:15:55,190 --> 01:16:00,670
Yeah, I mean, I think that I think that likely makes some sense I can have a conversation with Rick

578
01:16:00,670 --> 01:16:06,230
I think that the feedback I'm getting even from people who say, you know, this

579
01:16:06,930 --> 01:16:11,470
judging this to the code is just not a fair thing to do for this building

580
01:16:12,650 --> 01:16:19,090
They are still saying things like yeah, you probably should not be using the mezzanine that just does

581
01:16:19,090 --> 01:16:22,630
not make sense with the way this building is put together

582
01:16:22,630 --> 01:16:26,010
So things like that, we can have some conversation with Carter.

583
01:16:26,630 --> 01:16:31,590
He was supposed to have reduced the load on the mezzanine.

584
01:16:31,690 --> 01:16:35,690
We need to go out and inspect that, to make sure that that is actually the case.

585
01:16:35,910 --> 01:16:38,850
So we'll take snaps and pictures and just document that.

586
01:16:43,520 --> 01:16:48,620
Ford, Reiki, who we mentioned is on the committee, who's also the Chair of the Project Review Board.

587
01:16:48,620 --> 01:17:18,400
He also has his own experience with particularly older buildings around the state and shared his concern that, as Sophie said, that it's not just about code so much as that for a lot of historic buildings or older buildings, the structural engineering report is never going to show that it will withstand what it's already withstood for.

588
01:17:18,400 --> 01:17:24,540
However, many decades, and I've been with structural engineers in church

589
01:17:24,540 --> 01:17:28,540
steeples when they've said, yeah, you don't want me to calculate the numbers,

590
01:17:28,740 --> 01:17:32,640
but it's been here for 150 years, so there's every reason to think it will say.

591
01:17:34,160 --> 01:17:38,860
But to your point, Matt, I think having, you still need to go and look,

592
01:17:39,080 --> 01:17:44,200
because at some point, there could be a point of failure and you want to see that sooner than later.

593
01:17:45,460 --> 01:18:06,880
I think there was also some concern voiced in those initial conversations last night about this question that we had kind of opened up of just saying we don't want this group to focus on the building as much as what is the site and the access point really, what's the highest and best use of that.

594
01:18:08,260 --> 01:18:20,780
But there was some conversation around the fact that you wouldn't be able to replace the bill and still be able to rent it.

595
01:18:20,960 --> 01:18:26,360
Because at that point, it would cost so much to replace it, you're never going to recoup that cost.

596
01:18:27,960 --> 01:18:36,520
So we already, I think, have reduced the least premises because of the setback issues

597
01:18:36,520 --> 01:18:41,420
that we've identified in previous conversations, which is therefore reduced to the rent.

598
01:18:42,240 --> 01:18:50,340
I think one of my concerns really is an analysis that we should talk about about whether what we

599
01:18:50,340 --> 01:18:58,080
we are collecting in revenue from the least premises really have the long-term ability

600
01:18:58,080 --> 01:19:05,000
to maintain those premises and what does that mean in terms of capital reserves for

601
01:19:05,000 --> 01:19:06,980
long-term repairs.

602
01:19:08,920 --> 01:19:15,780
So that's something I think we would want to look at with that group or at least the council

603
01:19:15,780 --> 01:19:19,080
if the group is not going to have that conversation about the building then maybe that's just a

604
01:19:19,080 --> 01:19:25,680
the council conversation but having that conversation around the inability to

605
01:19:25,680 --> 01:19:31,460
recoup the cost of a new building flagged for me that I don't know that we have

606
01:19:31,460 --> 01:19:37,140
a current plan of recouping the cost for the existing building so that's a

607
01:19:37,140 --> 01:19:44,060
concern but in terms of the building actually standing I think my concerns about

608
01:19:44,060 --> 01:20:01,940
about the insurance have been answered by the fact that as long as we have liability insurance still I do not think it's worth having building insurance because again we wouldn't be replacing that building, we would be looking at something entirely different if we have to have to do that.

609
01:20:04,180 --> 01:20:17,000
Highest and best use is a great term, I just add the word long term, because really we're looking at visioning into the future as best we can for the long term welfare of the working waterfront.

610
01:20:17,380 --> 01:20:24,420
As for a practical answer to the question, how do we check the building or when do we check it?

611
01:20:24,420 --> 01:20:29,540
And I think practically speaking, I mean, we just had 75 mile an hour August in Portland

612
01:20:29,540 --> 01:20:33,280
to the degree that trees are down and cars are destroyed.

613
01:20:33,740 --> 01:20:44,640
So the practical answer to me is, if there's a serious downburst or something like that, we

614
01:20:44,640 --> 01:20:49,940
should definitely look at the building and look for trouble because wind I think is possibly

615
01:20:49,940 --> 01:20:50,960
one of the biggest problems.

616
01:20:51,720 --> 01:21:06,320
We've removed the damage it could be caused by using a hoist because that's not used anymore I understand so but when we don't know when that's going to happen so it has been around for how long?

617
01:21:06,320 --> 01:21:15,260
100 years. No, not that 71. 71. I'm sure it's it's. But yeah, by about a yearly inspection

618
01:21:16,040 --> 01:21:24,980
would be enough and if we had some significant event. But weather is significant to a place

619
01:21:24,980 --> 01:21:30,780
and it's a very sheltered place actually so that's great. So it sounds like Sophie will

620
01:21:30,780 --> 01:21:34,360
have a conversation with Nick about cadence and timing on that.

621
01:21:34,360 --> 01:21:43,320
I think the place to really have that conversation in depth would be the Municipal Facilities Committee, we're meeting on the 26th and we can have that there.

622
01:21:44,080 --> 01:22:03,440
And just to put a thought in in your guys' head is a lot of people use Carter to have their mornings in and out and I think it'd be easier if we did that for a weighted till April or May once all the mornings in and if we were going to end the lease.

623
01:22:05,160 --> 01:22:07,060
So right now it's extended to the end of September.

624
01:22:08,080 --> 01:22:14,980
Right, and I'm saying so would be a year to May, that'll give us time to do whatever we want to come up with.

625
01:22:15,500 --> 01:22:22,220
Okay, we're going to do this, or we're not going to do this, so it would be 14 months, 15 months, something like that.

626
01:22:22,860 --> 01:22:31,100
Instead of maybe 18 months, and responding to that, I wonder, can this be renewed multiple times?

627
01:22:31,100 --> 01:22:39,300
So I think it's, yeah, I want to be mindful of just being clear that it's extending an existing lease, not entering into a new lease.

628
01:22:40,360 --> 01:22:40,920
Correct.

629
01:22:41,220 --> 01:22:59,760
Well, I want to be clear, we're extending a lease extension because in that multi-page lease extension that took a long time to craft, there is significant language in there about concerns related to the building, liability related to the building, how the tenant is going to function in the new building.

630
01:22:59,760 --> 01:23:09,740
So, I think we have a framework that takes us through decision making, I will just say this

631
01:23:09,740 --> 01:23:19,320
is something that when I am kind of thinking about how your discussions are moving forward

632
01:23:19,600 --> 01:23:27,260
and that you want a report here by X-Date and then you want to begin a community conversation

633
01:23:27,260 --> 01:23:33,840
in the late fall and into the winter, and you want to make some decisions, it would

634
01:23:33,840 --> 01:23:44,760
seem to me if I was a commercial tenant, this idea of we're going to kind of keep

635
01:23:44,760 --> 01:23:51,640
kicking the can, I would rather have you guys make decisions, decide then if there is

636
01:23:51,640 --> 01:23:56,280
a transition, if it's a transition to what we're going to do something different, or we're

637
01:23:56,280 --> 01:24:02,380
going to have something long term because this one we do not have any other property

638
01:24:02,380 --> 01:24:12,620
leases that go a year at a time. None. Most of them are quite longer. So it would

639
01:24:12,620 --> 01:24:19,980
seem, I mean, part of me trying to push this a little bit is what is the best use? There's

640
01:24:19,980 --> 01:24:25,800
been all sorts of conversation. If it is to continue to lease to a single lease hold, then

641
01:24:25,800 --> 01:24:36,940
and we should make improvements to the building, we should have a plan for how we're going to maintain the building, and we should give some stability to the tenant.

642
01:24:37,920 --> 01:24:41,040
If we're not going to do that, then we should make a decision.

643
01:24:41,440 --> 01:24:53,420
This is easy for me to say as the appointed person, probably going way over the line, but make a decision that then allows us to transition into whatever the new plan is.

644
01:24:53,420 --> 01:24:54,320
That's one or the other.

645
01:24:54,580 --> 01:24:57,360
And to be clear, that's what we're doing.

646
01:24:58,120 --> 01:25:02,620
But I think the question now, so we have the process in place, that's exactly what we're going to do.

647
01:25:02,860 --> 01:25:04,200
But we're not, tonight's not.

648
01:25:04,560 --> 01:25:05,580
Tonight, no, I know.

649
01:25:05,660 --> 01:25:08,760
We're not answering the question tonight of are we entering into a long term lease?

650
01:25:09,520 --> 01:25:10,220
That's not tonight.

651
01:25:10,920 --> 01:25:14,720
So tonight, really what it is, is are we, do we want to extend it?

652
01:25:14,900 --> 01:25:18,760
What are we doing with this lease as we know the timeline for that visioning?

653
01:25:19,160 --> 01:25:20,240
So, sorry.

654
01:25:20,760 --> 01:25:21,160
Go for it.

655
01:25:21,800 --> 01:25:31,080
I was just going to say, I thought where Chip was going and I was going to agree with him, is that yes, if you've got to have mornings come in, then you've got to have mornings go back out again.

656
01:25:32,340 --> 01:25:51,020
So I was thinking yes, May, but next May, not a year from May, mostly because at that point, I think by then the council will have a vision of where we're going with the property and can either enter into a longer term lease.

657
01:25:51,020 --> 01:25:56,480
Yeah, or will you take an interim to a long time at least any time I'm just I

658
01:25:57,320 --> 01:26:02,600
Don't think we'll be there and even if we are there it's gonna take time to get everything set in place

659
01:26:02,600 --> 01:26:03,960
so it gives

660
01:26:04,580 --> 01:26:09,100
It just gives us time to really flesh all this out. I'm not saying we don't do it

661
01:26:09,100 --> 01:26:10,740
but and it gives

662
01:26:11,400 --> 01:26:12,060
you know

663
01:26:13,540 --> 01:26:16,640
Carter time to figure out too because it's

664
01:26:17,320 --> 01:26:31,360
You know, we'll know by May, well, okay, this is what we're going to do, but we're not going to, at that point, we're not going to have, and then that brings in a whole other season, that's all I'm saying, because we're, let's face it, we're slow.

665
01:26:32,020 --> 01:26:42,440
We have to be slow, so I'm saying, if we give ourselves a year and a half to answer all these questions, and it's just a thought, that's what I'm thinking.

666
01:26:42,900 --> 01:26:47,960
It will give us, we don't have to, okay, it's May now, okay, we're going to do this, and then we're going to do that.

667
01:26:48,240 --> 01:26:50,900
Well, no, okay, we need extended, we'll do the other guy.

668
01:26:51,720 --> 01:26:52,800
I don't want to be there.

669
01:26:53,020 --> 01:27:00,940
It's easier to do that than it is to sit and discuss, okay, yet, well, we got this coming up again, and we want to extend it.

670
01:27:01,040 --> 01:27:05,620
Well, we don't know this, we don't know that, we're going to, it just takes time.

671
01:27:05,620 --> 01:27:10,620
And I think if we give ourselves a year and a half to get this all done and know where we're going,

672
01:27:11,320 --> 01:27:12,280
we're better off.

673
01:27:13,540 --> 01:27:19,760
I'm usually better, I want to make a decision now, and I do not like taking time.

674
01:27:20,020 --> 01:27:26,160
But we're not just dealing with our time, we're dealing with clients and everything else.

675
01:27:26,520 --> 01:27:32,280
So it just gives everyone more time to think about what they have to do if this is that.

676
01:27:33,740 --> 01:27:41,100
I think we have set up this committee, this ad hoc committee, to be a quick moving process.

677
01:27:41,720 --> 01:27:45,760
Again, I'm not saying that that's not a big decision, but-

678
01:27:45,760 --> 01:27:49,440
So I would support May of this year, and then we revisit then.

679
01:27:50,220 --> 01:27:51,480
Anyone want to place bets?

680
01:27:52,880 --> 01:27:59,700
I don't think, and I'm not saying that means that we need to, I'm not saying that means that we're perfectly lined up when we know exactly what we're doing.

681
01:28:00,260 --> 01:28:01,100
That's not what I'm saying.

682
01:28:01,100 --> 01:28:07,180
I get that, but it's going to get to May, we're not going to be perfectly lined up and then we're going to be doing this again.

683
01:28:07,480 --> 01:28:17,820
First of all, like I spend a fair amount of time out in the water when I'm feeling better, but I would not presume to know the morning business.

684
01:28:18,500 --> 01:28:23,400
So May, I'm guessing is actually not the date that we should be talking about.

685
01:28:23,760 --> 01:28:27,840
I could be wrong, but Carter could tell us, first of all.

686
01:28:27,840 --> 01:28:33,440
Second of all, I'm the guy that screams for us to move faster, right?

687
01:28:34,180 --> 01:28:38,220
And I can tell you right now, we will not finish this process by May.

688
01:28:39,060 --> 01:28:43,440
There's no way in hell we will finish this process by May, which is what happened.

689
01:28:44,040 --> 01:28:47,800
And I hate to see us set ourselves up for failure.

690
01:28:48,100 --> 01:28:49,680
This is an important decision.

691
01:28:50,560 --> 01:28:54,740
The working waterfront needs to be preserved on our shoreline.

692
01:28:54,740 --> 01:29:02,800
And I will not presume to know whether that means that Carter goes there or something else goes there or

693
01:29:03,360 --> 01:29:09,560
whatever the people in the town of Freport, you know, whatever is best for them.

694
01:29:09,860 --> 01:29:13,340
But I can't imagine it will be done by May of 27.

695
01:29:18,420 --> 01:29:20,740
You know, I think if what you want to do is

696
01:29:23,620 --> 01:29:27,080
say September of 27, that would give you know,

697
01:29:27,080 --> 01:29:33,080
you know, that's time to make a decision and Carter to then react to that decision if

698
01:29:33,840 --> 01:29:40,440
I think going until the following spring actually makes more sense and the one thing that

699
01:29:40,440 --> 01:29:47,840
I think everybody here has heard or has said is it stood for quite a few years. I don't

700
01:29:47,840 --> 01:29:53,160
think she's coming down real fast and I understand like you look underneath there and there's

701
01:29:53,160 --> 01:29:54,980
like pylings that are

702
01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:11,140
Broken. Go look underneath every single building on the Portland waterfront. I've been under most of them at one time or another. And I can tell you, they look worse.

703
01:30:13,800 --> 01:30:29,980
And, you know, I think the idea of having some restrictions put on the use of the vasanines on chain, chain falls and stuff like that makes sense to me. I think having a regular inspection makes a lot of sense to me.

704
01:30:29,980 --> 01:30:39,060
because I think that while we have insurance for liability, it's still incumbent upon us to protect people from getting hurt.

705
01:30:40,000 --> 01:30:50,820
But I think rushing this is coincidentally the same time that I get to get back out on the water to work my farm.

706
01:30:51,720 --> 01:30:55,480
And as far away as it seems, I gotta tell you, it's not that far.

707
01:31:02,880 --> 01:31:03,460
So

708
01:31:09,160 --> 01:31:13,960
I guess all of that said it makes perfect sense.

709
01:31:14,160 --> 01:31:22,040
So what's going to keep the fire under our deriors to keep moving forward, because I think that's important.

710
01:31:29,030 --> 01:31:34,410
I think an iterative process, I think we learn along the way.

711
01:31:34,410 --> 01:31:41,750
I think, personally, I would not like to see the building vacant unnecessarily.

712
01:31:42,330 --> 01:31:47,590
So, Sophie's ask was, what would we like to have her prepare for us?

713
01:31:48,190 --> 01:31:53,450
My individual opinion would be, I would love to see an extension through,

714
01:31:53,690 --> 01:32:02,990
I'll say, June 30th, to get through the spring season with any additional restrictions that we've learned about since the last time we extended it.

715
01:32:02,990 --> 01:32:07,330
And maybe that's the last time we extended it was, that was all we needed to do and that's fine.

716
01:32:08,170 --> 01:32:12,030
We may think that now we also want to add some inspections and that's fine.

717
01:32:12,870 --> 01:32:17,410
So if that you have any recommendations for that extension, I think that would be prudent.

718
01:32:17,830 --> 01:32:21,130
I expect that when June 30th comes, we probably won't be done with our process.

719
01:32:21,270 --> 01:32:22,410
We'll probably need to extend again.

720
01:32:22,690 --> 01:32:25,510
But we may learn some things between now and June 30th.

721
01:32:25,670 --> 01:32:30,210
So at the next extension, we may say, in addition to the inspections that we added in September,

722
01:32:30,210 --> 01:32:36,950
We now decided that red paint is okay and blue paint is not okay, so we want to add that as a condition into the next lease.

723
01:32:37,370 --> 01:32:40,270
By giving us that window of renewal, it gives us the opportunity.

724
01:32:40,410 --> 01:32:44,670
If we renew for a year and a half or two years, we don't have the ability to adjust it along the way.

725
01:32:44,930 --> 01:32:49,090
So I would propose that we extend through next summer, but

726
01:32:49,090 --> 01:32:52,910
understand that it's not a failure if we don't have a long term solution by then.

727
01:32:53,030 --> 01:32:55,490
But just it means we have more information for the next lease.

728
01:32:55,490 --> 01:32:58,390
So what you're saying is because we have a lease, we can't paint the building.

729
01:33:00,470 --> 01:33:01,710
That's what I just heard, right?

730
01:33:01,810 --> 01:33:02,730
We can't change the building.

731
01:33:03,350 --> 01:33:08,750
You saw what you said, well, we can still do things to the building.

732
01:33:08,790 --> 01:33:12,430
Absolutely, you're not going even if he has, at least for a year or a half.

733
01:33:13,150 --> 01:33:18,190
If we learn between now and June that we learn something new about the structure of the building.

734
01:33:18,450 --> 01:33:23,610
That, oh, we need to not put things in this corner of the building because that piling is especially dangerous.

735
01:33:23,610 --> 01:33:27,650
If we learn something like that, that gives us the opportunity to modify the terms of the lease.

736
01:33:28,590 --> 01:33:29,330
That's all I'm saying.

737
01:33:29,570 --> 01:33:33,730
And then maybe that we get to June and be like, yeah, it's fine as he has just added another year, two or six months to it.

738
01:33:35,680 --> 01:33:44,460
Really like the idea of Councillor Sparta of regular inspections because what happens in the first inspection is you learn about the building.

739
01:33:44,820 --> 01:33:50,780
The second inspection, you learn a little more and finally you start to settle into, oh, okay, this is what's normal.

740
01:33:50,780 --> 01:33:54,180
And I just think that makes a really good sense.

741
01:34:05,940 --> 01:34:09,040
I think the June 30th, I agree with what you said, Dan.

742
01:34:09,240 --> 01:34:09,680
I think that's great.

743
01:34:10,440 --> 01:34:14,900
I think that you put it very well of, you know, it's an iterative process and

744
01:34:14,900 --> 01:34:15,980
we're going to learn a lot as we go.

745
01:34:27,000 --> 01:34:36,660
There's no mode, this is just, we're giving guidance to Sophie on this, do you need, do you need support from

746
01:34:36,660 --> 01:34:43,040
from your school facilities in order to think through what we're adding or is it something that you can work with Nick and bring it back.

747
01:34:43,220 --> 01:34:56,100
My suggestion, I think I already have a lot of it in my brain, I'm going to need to talk with Carter at some point, but I'll bring a draft to the next week's MFC meeting just so people can look at it and get feedback.

748
01:34:56,100 --> 01:35:02,820
back. So one of the critiques I've had in the past is that I can listen and hear multiple

749
01:35:02,820 --> 01:35:09,780
people but often can land on one or two voices. So I just, I have heard a length of time

750
01:35:09,780 --> 01:35:16,200
and six months or until the end of the fiscal year. So I just want to make sure the last

751
01:35:16,200 --> 01:35:21,580
thing I heard was the end of the fiscal year. And if that's the direction I'm headed in,

752
01:35:21,580 --> 01:35:24,220
And that's fine, nodding of head, it's great.

753
01:35:24,980 --> 01:35:25,060
Okay.

754
01:35:25,820 --> 01:35:28,320
Or, and I rest if that works better.

755
01:35:28,840 --> 01:35:29,580
So, yes.

756
01:35:30,960 --> 01:35:34,840
And I might be so clear that this, you know, doesn't mean that's it, it ends.

757
01:35:35,300 --> 01:35:37,700
This is one step in the direction.

758
01:35:40,370 --> 01:35:40,630
Okay.

759
01:35:41,030 --> 01:35:48,290
I think at least two people say a year from the next fiscal year, I just wanted to clarify that.

760
01:35:48,290 --> 01:36:00,790
Well, that's what I was trying to weigh in on is just because I heard six months less last is that where majority is headed at this moment, knowing I can bring something back and you can change it on the flag.

761
01:36:01,150 --> 01:36:01,390
Is

762
01:36:07,380 --> 01:36:07,820
that resonate?

763
01:36:11,600 --> 01:36:11,780
Okay.

764
01:36:14,210 --> 01:36:17,990
And with that, we've reached the end of our agenda. I'll entertain a motion to adjourn.

765
01:36:18,530 --> 01:36:19,310
So to adjourn?

766
01:36:19,310 --> 01:36:21,170
Same. All in favor?

767
01:36:21,550 --> 01:36:22,470
All right.