[0:03] Okay, I am gonna call to order the regular town council work session
[0:07] for monday, february 2nd. And ms. Chris, can we do a roll call?
[0:12] may your here, vice here. Council.
[0:16] here, here, here,
[0:21] here. All right. So we, um, this is our work session. We
[0:25] have four new business items and one unfinished
[0:30] before close. So our first new business item is a special use,
[0:34] uh, permit application from gary bunch to allow an automobile garage
[0:38] general repair shop at three west 14th street. And ms. Kaki is going
[0:42] to present that to us.
[0:48] um, is it up there,
[0:52] this chair stiffer than fall by?
[0:56] so this is for a, this is a special use permit
[1:00] for a, um, a service station
[1:05] at, uh, three west 14th street. Um,
[1:10] so the applicant is proposing to expand
[1:14] the existing use and all, all this special use permit is doing
[1:18] is permitting that. And then, um, bringing them, just
[1:23] bringing this new use into compliance with the code. Um,
[1:28] I'm just trying to get to these, get to the, so those are the site. All
[1:32] right. So this is the site from 14th street.
[1:37] this is the site from the corner and then up on north royal avenue.
[1:42] um, planning commission recommended approval, um,
[1:46] with three conditions. So in staff, strongly support condition number
[1:50] one, that the entrance off of 14th street shall be removed
[1:55] and replaced with, um, curb and gutter that the work shall
[1:59] be conducted within an enclosed building and that all outdoor storage or display
[2:03] will be screened to obstruct its visibility from any public street. Um,
[2:07] so the applicant is aware of these conditions
[2:13] and I don't think anybody spoke in opposition at the public hearing.
[2:17] so can you go back to the pictures for me? Yeah. To that first one.
[2:23] so is it that right there that the entrance they would ask to close off
[2:27] so that, so nobody's not gonna be coming around that curb and trying to go in? Correct.
[2:31] so they would have to enter it from northbrook extended north royal extended. Right. It
[2:35] close up an entrance to somebody's business. Well, they have two entrances
[2:39] now. And when we're looking at this from a safety perspective, you're putting,
[2:44] it's a, it's one less, um, opportunity for people to pull
[2:48] out into. Hold on one second. On one second.
[2:52] 14th and, and north row. I'd have to pull some stats.
[2:56] I know there's been some that guardrails been replaced. Yeah, guardrails have, but
[3:01] yeah, I don't believe , I have heartburn with,
[3:06] with, with, was taking away one of, one of their permanent entrances.
[3:10] been there for 50 years or more. Okay. So that was my first
[3:14] question. So that, that's what that first condition that planning commission would suggest
[3:19] is to, to, to no longer have that. Right. And then the
[3:23] second one is that all work would be done inside, but their garages
[3:27] anyway. So, okay. The tires you wouldn't see anymore. Right. So we wouldn't have the
[3:31] tires outside and you wouldn't have people working on vehicles outside
[3:36] of the shop. And I think what's happened now is that their, their
[3:40] business is doing well and they have expanded outside of the original
[3:44] structure and they need to make it bigger, but to enlarge it, they need to come into compliance.
[3:48] um, but when they do this, uh,
[3:52] expansion, we would be looking at site circulation and,
[3:57] and how they're utilizing it. Staff would be reviewing it. Public works would be
[4:01] looking at that. So energy services to make sure they don't need any upgrades.
[4:05] um, we didn't make that recommendation lightly that you close off an
[4:09] entrance. And the third thing that I, I just,
[4:13] when I was looking through the things that said is, um, a display
[4:18] shall be screened. Yeah. So are they talking about like a big tall, like
[4:22] a, like a green? I've seen like what, which that's would've said one of
[4:26] the, the net fences. That's what I was asking. Leave that to
[4:30] wrong direction. There you go. That one
[4:35] there. So what, so
[4:39] the, I mean, it's not there now. I know that.
[4:43] right? I'm just saying like, so all outdoor storage display shall be screened to obstruct its
[4:47] visibility from any public streets. So that's within our zoning
[4:51] ordinance. When we look at these, when we're analyzing whether or not these uses
[4:55] are informing or not, um,
[4:59] this is one of the conditions that staff looks at. Like, are you screening your display areas
[5:04] properly? Um, can you gimme just example?
[5:08] I get what al I get what outdoor storage would be like those tires, right?
[5:12] that would be, that would be something they would I get that. So
[5:17] the actual, what would a display be? What do you mean about a display? She'll
[5:21] be screened. Um, what's like a, I think a display is like
[5:25] a sign, but maybe I'm no like screen the tires. So you can't
[5:29] see it. If there's gonna be , it's merchandise. Any merchandise or, um, items
[5:33] that you have outside, we would require some that of screening potentially.
[5:38] um, so like they had a collection of signs maybe
[5:42] for their, for their business. It's a display area. So, um, at the,
[5:47] uh, martin shopping center, I mean they have that outdoor
[5:51] display area. Um, that one is exempted into
[5:55] the shopping center code or ordinance, but um,
[5:59] or like where they're selling stuff outside, is that what you're telling me? Right. So like their
[6:04] nursery, their nursery stock thinking they have a fence around that. They're screening
[6:08] that display area. Okay. I just can't imagine what they'd be. I can't, I
[6:13] I mean I, it would, I know that there's, that they sell cars.
[6:18] I get that. I'm just saying. But that wouldn't be there. That would be up into
[6:22] the original. That's all like tires. Tires, yeah. Put tires out
[6:26] there to sell. Probably. Um, the only reason why I
[6:30] was saying that, like I think about like a screen when they said to
[6:34] obstruct its visibility from any public street or whatever. I just wonder if a
[6:39] big large screen would be more, um, typical.
[6:43] we're looking at fencing more obstructive than, than okay, so fencing,
[6:47] is that what you're saying? So typically when we see screening, we think of like a privacy fence
[6:52] or um, like some kind of wall. Like, um, like when we require
[6:56] that dumpsters get closure screens, if there's some type of opaque you
[7:00] can't, okay. Worse than screening. I was just thinking all going down
[7:04] the highway and you see the screens in front of the residential areas so you don't see them.
[7:08] mm-hmm . That's a screen. Yeah. I just was thinking
[7:12] from that corner and going up north royal behind it, and now there's houses
[7:17] that are over there. I just was thinking like, I actually think it
[7:21] would look a lot worse to like, have big tall screens
[7:25] going along there. 'cause it's kind of an open area there. But anyway, that, that's all. I just,
[7:29] those were my questions is what exactly there too, right? What,
[7:33] what exactly were we, what exactly would the town
[7:38] want that to look like and, and what they would,
[7:42] and I imagine they're asking the same thing. Like what would that look like? So anyway, sorry.
[7:46] those were my only questions. Y'all feel free to, I just wanted to make sure so
[7:51] that to to to prevent right. Turn
[7:55] into it. To right turn into it. They, they would injure from north
[7:59] royal and make a left turn into a right north people coming out of it and trying to make a left and
[8:03] cutting across. And so you've got people coming around, um, going towards
[8:07] the bridges. You can't make a left out there. But I, I know what you're saying. Yeah, because there's a median
[8:11] there. I I, that wouldn't be happening. Pulling in
[8:15] a right end would happen, but a left out. Well, a right out would
[8:20] be too. But anyway, up. Sorry, I asked
[8:24] all my questions. Anybody else have any questions? Would
[8:28] you consider a ride out only instead of removing their entrance
[8:33] ride out would allow you to go up, uh, west on 14th street?
[8:38] you mean when painting it or putting up a signage? You put sign? Well, I mean, if you
[8:42] the right turn, put the concrete thing there, you can only go one way. That's right.
[8:48] I mean, couldn't even, that's gonna cost the town money, right? I do not undersigned for that matter. If you just wanna make it an exit.
[8:56] they had that at mcdonald's. Yeah. Where you had to go right out, you're
[9:00] gonna on south street and there were still people that will pull out or, or there at the, um,
[9:05] go left intersection at riverton, like where you're supposed to go up on the stars
[9:09] road and come and people still would try to make it. I mean, I think it's gonna be
[9:13] congested with, with people trying to get in or them trying to get their cars in
[9:17] and out way. If we take that exit, take that exit off the property away from 'em, that
[9:21] just doesn't make, I mean I doesn't make sense to me. It's already there.
[9:25] my gosh. It was there when it was a tasty freeze there. I do you also have an
[9:30] entrance right next to it, if I'm remembering
[9:34] properly with the in there. So you've got
[9:39] an exit here, that's the one they're trying to take out. Right? But then you've
[9:43] got these here. So when we're looking at like new development
[9:47] up there, you've got hotel, hotel. No, there's no other.
[9:52] that's the hotel though. You can't go in into the hotel, you can't get into the hotel's.
[9:56] not saying, I think she's saying there's three exits all on top of each other. Yeah.
[10:01] if you have three cars pulling out of their back to back to back. So these are too
[10:05] close. So these don't typically meet distancing standards that we have.
[10:09] so this is our opportunity to get rid of one
[10:14] problem entrance. Sorry, I, I counsel can, I can't agree with that.
[10:19] actually. It looks like the way this, that if you blow that up,
[10:23] it sh shoot, if you blow that up, it shows
[10:28] a, um, a cut and a medium there where you could cut
[10:32] out and try to make a left hand turn lane. So oh yeah. That's why I said why
[10:36] not make it a right. Only I guess there is, there isn't there? Um, I definitely
[10:40] would not because you want people, you wouldnt make a west in intersections more so than just
[10:44] dark out the middle. There's just not a lot of distance when you're coming around this
[10:48] curve to where this entrance exit.
[10:56] yeah, this shows there is a cut. If, if this is a
[11:00] current picture, I don't know. I mean, I'll look at on the way home the right, but it looks like there's a
[11:04] break there in the corner. There is,
[11:09] yeah. I've actually, I've actually pulled up north road turn right and then make u-turn
[11:13] right there. . But none of this is compliant. The the
[11:17] distances between here are not compliant with at least be without standards. Now there
[11:21] are roads, but typically we have been making the recommendations
[11:25] lately that development follows without standards. Especially
[11:29] with these , it's, it's impo. It's, it's very, very difficult at best no matter what
[11:34] happens to make a left turn out of there anyways, even from north royal avenue,
[11:38] I , I don't even like to make a left out coming out. I usually, if I'm
[11:42] there in north royal, unless I see a big gap, I'm just like, I just make a
[11:46] right and go up and turn around. I go up right now seven
[11:50] 11, but, but I turned left
[11:54] out of that north rail tonight and got here. . There you go.
[11:59] um, are there, um, I, I have
[12:03] something, um, I noticed that
[12:08] I think it was three parking spots, um,
[12:14] are required. Is that, so we, right now,
[12:18] uh, parking is calculated based on the square footage. So,
[12:22] um, once they do the, once they know the size of their building, we'll recalculate based
[12:26] on their new floor area.
[12:31] okay. My, my, I guess my concern is when you look at it,
[12:36] um, from the, the gis viewpoint,
[12:41] where the end of the building is going to be, typically
[12:46] these places can get really busy if they're, if they're,
[12:51] if they do good work. Right. And, um,
[12:56] I'm just a little bit concerned about vehicles
[13:00] parking on north row extended as
[13:04] overflow mm-hmm . Um, that's going on.
[13:08] and they're allowed to well, I know, I know they're allowed to. I'm I'm just saying
[13:13] that, um, uh, do you mean that's
[13:17] already a congested area that backs up to they be able to make it
[13:21] a left hand turn to get onto
[13:25] 14th? Well, at, uh, 14th street and I mean, they've got some space
[13:30] back here. Um, you, you gotta see
[13:34] it during the day. Lauren, how long has it been open and operating
[13:38] as shop a mechanical tire shop now? Probably, can
[13:42] I answer that question for you or yeah, hold on one second. Oh, okay. I can, it's
[13:46] okay. I don't dunno the answer. I know, I just feel I know I'm gonna, I do, I just wanted,
[13:50] we're we're asking good questions, but it's not like it's changing use
[13:55] entirely. Like I've gone there in the last year and had my vehicle worked on,
[13:59] and I grew up, at least I grew up by the vfw. It's,
[14:03] it's, that's been there for at least 15, 20 years. So we have a already
[14:08] existing business owner, which we recognized before this very council for
[14:12] their commitment and dedication to operating in this community trying to expand,
[14:16] said successful business to a building that was operating under the same use
[14:21] premise. So I think it, it'd be a disservice to
[14:25] add any more hurdles and unless we're sending it back to planning commission,
[14:29] it's the job of this council to determine what conditions we're gonna place on it at the public hearing
[14:34] or at the regular council meeting rather. So
[14:38] here, ms. Fine. Yes. How long has I, I know it was a jiffy lube
[14:42] for a long time. That's been quite a few years. Yeah. Yeah. We probably purchased
[14:47] it 25 years ago. And this,
[14:51] uh, they are actually our tenants, um, renters and
[14:55] they have been there 15 to 20 years, the same family. They work
[14:59] very hard and they have, they need more space.
[15:03] so us jointly together have decided to ask for
[15:08] this request and then like she said, uh, if we'll
[15:12] go through the proper steps, but to try to put another building up for them. Okay.
[15:16] so that it will be enclosed and they'll
[15:20] have, you know, adequate room for their services. Okay.
[15:25] so, but for the last 25 years, it's being used in
[15:29] the same capacity, just not as large of a business
[15:33] yet. Because if you expand, then it's, the idea is to have more business right.
[15:37] for them, for them to have more business and more space for what they already have. Gotcha. And
[15:41] our code distinguishes between service stations and repair shops.
[15:46] so that's, it's, they're technically changing. That's why we're bringing in compliance
[15:50] because it's still listed as the, um, sorry, the service station,
[15:54] which is where they do the oil changes and automobile. Right. But a repair
[15:58] shop is different than a service station isn't not very interesting. They would
[16:02] be too different. Two, everything. All right. I, I just brought up the,
[16:06] I just brought up the parking, uh, issue. If
[16:10] it's, we all know that it's been there for, for, for
[16:15] years and nothing has changed that that intersection has not changed
[16:19] in like 50 years. So there are more houses. There
[16:23] are houses or, and there's, there's also a base cam
[16:27] down there, the, the canoe place now. And, uh, in
[16:31] the summertime it's gonna be busy given, uh,
[16:36] we're gonna have more water when it's all melts.
[16:40] so, um, I'm just saying that my point was,
[16:45] um, you know, if there, if you end up having overflow
[16:49] parking on the street, you already have, you're gonna have a narrow
[16:53] street with the cars parked on the street. That's all I'm saying. And
[16:58] so if there, if, if the thought process is that beyond
[17:02] the end of their building, uh, you
[17:06] might restrict some parking up there. That's all 20 street
[17:11] that the one one or the 1 3, 5, 7 and nope, go
[17:15] back to picture. Sorry. So that where it says 1, 1, 5, 7, 1, 3, 5, 7, 1, 3, 7, 1,
[17:21] are those those two new houses that are there? Okay. That's what, which they could go out and park on the
[17:25] street if they wanna have a birthday party or, yeah. Yeah.
[17:32] but also if they can't provide adequate parking, we wouldn't, like, I wouldn't
[17:36] be able to issue them their, their plan permit. So we
[17:40] will be evaluating it. There. Are you watching the state though? You know, the state's coming down the
[17:44] scene? I know, I saw that. I was actually happy about that. I understand that we, but
[17:48] we already have that on south royal avenue. Okay. So
[17:52] I mean, but uh, it is what it is. I mean,
[17:59] I don't want to restrict a business, but at the same time I want,
[18:03] I want to take as much safety measures as possible.
[18:09] there was a time when down, um, by
[18:13] where the old bfw was and they thought, we thought the rail
[18:17] trail was coming through that particular area right there, that street.
[18:21] there was a lot of talk about. Um, but that's where people would
[18:26] like, end up down there and that we would have like bus like that there
[18:30] would be like kind of transport, not the trolley, but something like that back and forth. But
[18:34] to be quite frank with you, the mysteries and stuff on the rail
[18:38] trail, I don't even know if that's, uh, I'm, I'm not as optimistic as I
[18:42] once was, um, about that. But so are
[18:46] there, so, so ms. Is here as
[18:50] staff. She's presented, um, the information she shared,
[18:55] what the planning commission's suggestions were
[18:59] and, and what's happened. Is there other questions from council
[19:03] about this application, this site? Anything having
[19:08] to do with this? I just think we need to do something so they don't lose that
[19:12] interest. Point out the front and make a right. You know, we can put sides like, look, we got up on
[19:16] south street right. Turn only, it'd be up for council to make that condition
[19:20] when we approve it versus, yes. Yeah. Yeah. And, and
[19:24] that's not, like, that's not what we've, we don't make that decision here.
[19:29] the thing is, do we have more questions about this? And then, um,
[19:34] do we have more questions for staff? Is there further questions you all want
[19:39] answered? And if the answer to that is no, then
[19:43] it is, are you ready to put it on, uh,
[19:47] a, a, a meeting that's ready to well, I'm ready to add it to february. The
[19:51] way I see it is you have an existing business for more than two decades, not just a couple of
[19:56] years. Improving the aesthetic, improving the use, improving
[20:00] and increasing the tax revenue in the community. I mean, to me
[20:04] it's a no-brainer. Yeah. And, and, but it does sound like it'll, they're
[20:08] gonna enlarge the business, but that aspect of it will be handled by the planning
[20:12] and zoning department anyway. Yeah. That part is is
[20:16] enlarge the, so they're gonna put, they're basically gonna put a storage facility, the buildings yeah. To help them.
[20:20] oh, I'm sorry. I put, she said the building is to store what they have
[20:24] to give them more space to work. Right. Gotcha. To try to get some of the,
[20:29] and we could ask mrs. Bunch, I mean, she's here, but you go by and you see 'em working
[20:33] outside a lot and see they're full on the inside. So this
[20:37] would get some of that work inside. So when it's six degrees out,
[20:41] they can be inside changing tires, brakes or whatever, instead
[20:45] of having 'em jacked up out there in the asphalt. And, and in condition number two,
[20:50] if the council chooses, all work shall be conducted within an enclosed building that
[20:54] will keep it in the enclo building. So it has to be,
[20:58] I mean, but yeah. Right. No, to me, if we tell 'em they got, they gotta put curb
[21:02] and gutter anywhere. Make a, it's just an undue ship. They're gonna spend money
[21:07] to put that in. I don't know that they would, would they be responsible to
[21:11] financially put the in? That's what,
[21:15] okay. I just didn't know if that was something they would do
[21:19] or we would do. Right. I mean, if it's a safety issue,
[21:24] that's a bdot thing, you know, it wouldn't be us. We would leave
[21:28] it as is. Right. We wouldn't be responsible to pay for that. Right.
[21:32] it's a safety issue that was warranted. I mean, we could do it. I do believe we also have
[21:36] opportunities we can do like, uh, share of that cost
[21:41] as well. Okay. I was just curious. 'cause I, if it would be a, another
[21:45] situation, we wouldn't, you know, like we're not telling the hotel to close
[21:50] their entrance or, or like you said, there, there are a lot of entrances off of
[21:54] that street, like into that one and into the hotel, into the gas station and
[21:58] into the chiropractor office and all this. So the question is,
[22:03] is this council ready to put it on now, ms. Presley,
[22:08] do we have enough time? Mm-hmm . Okay. All right. So is everybody
[22:12] good with putting this on the february? And it would have to have
[22:16] a public hearing, right? It's public hearing. Yeah, that's, I just wanna make sure, that's why I was asking. We have
[22:20] enough time to advertise, right? So there will be a public hearing. Mm-hmm . You have the
[22:24] sign up there from the planning commission, public hearing. Did anybody comment to the
[22:29] planning commission hearing? She said no. I, I'm sorry I missed that somehow, right? You
[22:33] said no, no one came. Yep. Okay. All right. So that's
[22:38] item two. Ready. So that's
[22:43] our first public hearing for february . February what? February 20.
[22:47] what is it? 23rd 16th. Seven third. Yes.
[22:53] all right. And if anybody has any questions between now and then too,
[22:57] you can reach out to, uh, staff or the applicant.
[23:01] um, b2b, social use permit, application
[23:06] from property connection and all c to allow an automobile parking lot, commercial tow
[23:10] yard on a vacant lot on kiler street. And lauren will also be presenting
[23:14] that o um, just our definitions
[23:19] did not exactly define a tow yard in the zoning ordinance.
[23:24] um, but where this use fits in is that it's, um,
[23:28] the mobile parking lot commercial one, it would be, um, using
[23:32] a lot for the storage of six or more vehicles, um,
[23:37] that are not for sale. So, uh, the applicant here
[23:42] is proposing to utilize this vacant lot, um,
[23:46] off of kibbler street for a tow yard. They're
[23:51] proposing to add a fence as part of it. And this
[23:55] is in the floodway, not just the flood zones, but the floodway.
[23:59] um, and I assuming you all remember, there
[24:04] was an alley vacation at the, on the street at two 19.
[24:08] so you should be familiar with this area. Um,
[24:12] uh, the royal examiner's offices are here. So it is this
[24:17] property. Um, here's sixth and commerce is
[24:21] to or for sale, but we're just looking at this piece here.
[24:25] where was the alley vacation? We've done so many out here. Up here. Up here. Okay. So
[24:29] you vacated that portion of the alley here. We had, um,
[24:33] you've got two residential structures on one lot, which is the same
[24:38] property owner. So this lets them utilize this back lot here.
[24:44] well, I had some, I had some, I have two questions. I think.
[24:48] um, one was in the language, in the summary, it said they
[24:52] had permit the entered park six or more vehicles, but not wrecked vehicles.
[24:57] but then if you go down to the staff recommendations, then it says
[25:01] number four, rector damaged vehicles shall not remain on site for a period longer. So
[25:05] you're telling me you can't have 'em, but then you can have 'em. So which one is
[25:09] it? So, um, in the, in chapter 1 58, it states
[25:13] that you can't have them, but because they're operating a
[25:18] tow yard, essentially our thought was is if they
[25:22] need to, if they get called to tow these vehicles or there's some issue with the vehicle,
[25:26] they can leave it there, but then they need to remove it within 48
[25:31] hours. So then that, the 48 hours was my second issue. Because
[25:36] if somebody is in a serious wreck mm-hmm . 48 hours is very,
[25:41] is a very short period of time to figure out where your car is, where
[25:45] it's going and all of that. So I don't, I don't know that that's
[25:49] feasible. And I don't know that you can police it. You know, if
[25:54] insurance, the insurance company actually, so when,
[25:58] like if there's a wreck and they take the car to wherever it is, which this
[26:03] would be like a tow yard, then the insurance company is the one that comes
[26:07] in and determines where they're gonna move it to. Or at least that's what happened to us.
[26:11] if you're laid up in the hospital, you're not the one dealing with your vehicle
[26:15] typically at that point. And they have to move it because otherwise only, I'm only
[26:19] are they on a, are they on a period on a 48 hour period too? Well, the thing is,
[26:24] they wanna move it to a lot that
[26:28] is cheaper. At least that's, I'm just my experience. When my daughter's
[26:32] car was totaled, they, and we had it done midway
[26:36] and um, they had to, they went in and got it and they
[26:41] didn't come and get it quick enough. And when I say that is because
[26:45] they, they charge for it. They charge forever. Storage fee. Yeah.
[26:49] they charge the storage fee for it and the insurance company wants to come and get it and get
[26:53] it to wherever they don't have to pay well or wherever cheaper. And I guess,
[26:57] I mean, that's, that's so, but, but I'm like you 48 hours seems
[27:02] quick. It is, but I get that you don't, I get that. You don't want it
[27:06] to be, you don't want it to become a junkyard. And this would be
[27:10] complaint based. I mean, if somebody complains that there's these vehicles there for, you know,
[27:14] a week on end, right? Mm-hmm . We'll go
[27:18] out there, but but's this was just to get them. Yeah,
[27:22] that's what I'm saying. Who's gonna enforce a our zoning
[27:27] zoning enforcement, right? I mean, I mean that, that's, that's
[27:31] well and fine. That the, the question is, is if it's a wreck
[27:35] vehicle because of its location near the, the
[27:39] creek, I don't want fluids leak leaking
[27:44] onto the pavement, down into the, or into the, uh,
[27:48] whether or not it's a pavement or, or it's gravel.
[27:52] the gravel, it, it'll, it'll sink into the, the groundwater
[27:57] and then find its way in. So that, so you're saying four
[28:01] eight hours is a good thing? Yeah. If you can manage it,
[28:06] the be off, but, but well, true.
[28:10] that's you gotta get rid of.
[28:16] yeah, you gotta get rid of
[28:20] what, what is the zoning in this area? Uh, I think this is c
[28:24] one. C one. Yeah. But remember have
[28:28] two or three houses, residential houses. The two houses that are adjacent
[28:32] to it predate the zoning ordinance, which is how they ended
[28:36] up on the same lot. So this is cattycorner across the
[28:41] street from the one that we sold two feet of kibbler street to, right? Yeah,
[28:45] yeah, yeah. Because the person yeah. Built it wrong.
[28:56] no, that, that with, that was two 19. Two 19 was the one
[29:00] we, two 19 was the one where they put it too close to the street or
[29:04] whoever the excavator was. I mean, so these are legally nonconforming uses.
[29:08] two houses are on the same lot. Which ones are leak
[29:12] residential. Yeah. And I will say
[29:17] that that was what I recall. The other issues
[29:21] we've had with this street, as I recall the complaint was that
[29:27] there was residential back there, but they
[29:31] were like, those two structures were built in the forties before we had
[29:35] adopted his zoning ordinance. And they've been used as such ever since. Lauren,
[29:40] you said flood way and flood something else
[29:44] can, I'm just curious, could you define the difference between those?
[29:48] so you've got the flood way, which is where you have waters, like you're, we're
[29:52] anticipating like the waters moving through. And then you've got the flood plain, which may flood depending
[29:57] on the severity of the, the the rain
[30:01] event or the, so what's the, what's the one that's more serious? This is, this is floodway.
[30:05] so this is the creek, this is the channel. So if it floods,
[30:09] it's like mor right on the creek. It's more often
[30:14] versus more serious. Is that what I'm hearing? Right. Well we had that,
[30:18] well it earlier last year, and we had to go in there and make repairs to kibbler
[30:22] street where the creek backed up and flooded.
[30:31] and the neighbor, none of the neighbors minded? Well, the, they, it is them.
[30:35] they own it. Oh, the two houses are the people that are
[30:39] bunk. I'm assuming there was four. Sorry, just outta curiosity.
[30:46] are it, is that already, is this already happening? And this is just a,
[30:50] to try to fix it? Not here. There's another, um, towing facility. Um,
[30:54] yeah, I thought there was nearby. Okay, so
[30:59] one is independent of the other. Where's the other one?
[31:04] aaron's where it's, I believe
[31:08] it's just north. It's on these properties by east seventh street.
[31:13] well, marta motors on the other side of that, right? Yeah. I
[31:17] think believe there's ability, there's a buffer, a little bit of a buffer between marlow.
[31:21] think there's like a use, there's one where the alley where they wanted to be able to
[31:25] come down and come to the side. That's this, that's
[31:30] the same one. Yeah. That's, that's only street. I have it on the plat.
[31:34] yep. So you've already vacated everybody, uh, created.
[31:39] yeah. There's polygraph. Mm-hmm . Yep.
[31:43] I would like to see, I would suggest a paved surface
[31:48] as opposed to gravel. So it, yeah, whether if there
[31:53] are any fluids or whatever it can, it'll, it'll roll, roll in
[31:57] the direction away from the, uh, away
[32:01] from the body of water. Yeah. I mean, did mar the motors have any issues
[32:05] when we had the last, um, the last flood
[32:11] leaking? No, I don't know about fluids, but they, they had some cars. They had to, but
[32:15] typically you've got enough notice you can remove the vehicles and you can, it's not
[32:19] outside of your purview to potentially request or condition
[32:23] like management plan be submitted to staff that explain how if the need had
[32:27] to, yeah. How are you getting these vehicles out? Are security side
[32:32] problem is if they're wrecked vehicles. , that's why we're saying don't
[32:36] have wrecked vehicles. Okay, because I was gonna say like marlon motor, that's different.
[32:40] like they can get in the car and move a car. That's true. They're every
[32:44] gets in at three o'clock in the morning. Yeah, but I'm saying though that they're,
[32:49] they have the ability to move a working vehicle versus
[32:53] if this becomes like a tow yard. Um, but
[32:57] they're towing them there, so they should be able to tow them out. True. That's true.
[33:05] when we do this and we put the notice out to, do we go across the
[33:09] creek? Did they get notified as well? We, we do immediately adjacent. So,
[33:13] um, well go back. Okay, my question is
[33:18] on the east side of the creek, you got two
[33:22] big buildings there. So were they notified of this? 'cause they all have a,
[33:26] well, they would've been there. Their property lines are touching. So here's the creek. The creek is
[33:31] actually running through their properties. They would've been notified that the ones the
[33:35] business, right? The one with the red roof. Isn't that the business? Mm-hmm
[33:39] . I don't know what the other one is now. Well, there's no, the
[33:43] parking lot, the concrete, it's just that concrete pad, the big, that
[33:47] was the building where it worked out.
[33:52] counsel, the question is, do you all have more questions about this?
[33:57] um, do you want to move it forward?
[34:01] do what is your prerogative about this
[34:05] particular, this particular application at this time?
[34:14] okay, well, you know what? Here's the six minutes and nine and
[34:19] I'm not feeling like everybody's totally, nobody's jumping on this
[34:23] really like, yep. Let's move it on to the february meeting. So should
[34:27] we move this to, should we, I won't say
[34:31] table it, but bring it up again as old business or what,
[34:36] what is your prerogative? Can we move it to our next work session
[34:40] and revisit it? Yeah, that's, that's fine. Maybe get more information on it because
[34:44] I, I be honest, I did not prepare for this. I haven't,
[34:48] I've driven by there many times, but I'd like to look at
[34:52] it again. So yeah, I,
[34:57] I'm okay with it. If we change, if we change number four
[35:01] under the wreck vehicle for, well that's, that's what
[35:05] would happen that night. I mean, uh, number three. Sorry. You want it pave?
[35:09] yeah, I want it pa okay. Well, like I said, that would be something that
[35:13] would be part of the motion that night. If that's, if that was the condition you
[35:17] wanted. Yeah, my question. Okay. I I'm hearing nobody
[35:22] else say anything. Uh, so I'm gonna go with what glen said, which is, we'll
[35:26] put this one next week's work session. I will say this though,
[35:30] to put it on next week's work session. If there are questions that
[35:34] you have, please get with staff
[35:38] and ask the questions so that when we bring it back next week, you
[35:43] know it, let me ask this is one week and up or should we move it to the march work
[35:47] sessions? I don't think one week is enough that I would take one
[35:51] thing. Is everybody okay? Yes. Mr. Petty.
[35:56] this requires a public hearing. So if,
[36:00] if you could talk about it next week, or if you wait till the first march meeting,
[36:05] you need time to advertise it for a public hearing anyways, so
[36:09] it doesn't matter if you hear it next week or the first week in march. If
[36:13] you delay this, the next public hearing available will be the end. End of march. March. Okay. I got so
[36:18] you have time if you would like extra time. So here's what we're gonna do, mr. Petty,
[36:23] you and I, when we make the agenda for next week, we're gonna see how hard it is.
[36:27] if it's not real, real hardy, then we'll put it on that one. If it's, if we have
[36:31] a lot of items, then moving into march isn't gonna, it's not gonna affect
[36:35] the, um, how long this takes her. Correct. Okay. Is that good? I,
[36:40] um, oh, two my concerns again, were the 48
[36:44] hours, but also I get about the rec vehicles. But
[36:48] when you say damaged, if you're towing my car, it's got damage of some
[36:52] sort. So I, I don't know that that term is gonna work.
[36:58] I think that's out of our code. That's why we stated it that way. But we can
[37:02] think about that. Look at that. Yeah, I can chime in at this point. The
[37:06] the code is imperfect. Okay.
[37:10] we're in the process of a complete review and revamp
[37:15] of the zoning ordinance. Um, the zoning administrator
[37:19] came to me for help on this app as to what
[37:23] the proper use was given the application.
[37:28] and, and I'm not addressing the conditions the pc put
[37:32] on there, but it, it was, it's an imperfect
[37:37] solution to address the application and that includes some of
[37:41] the definitions. So, okay.
[37:45] okay. All right. You'll see this again. Counsel. Uh, item
[37:50] two c is a special use permit application from
[37:54] h-a-m-l-l-c, front royal virginia on behalf of the, is it boise?
[37:58] I saying that right? Rosie. Rosie
[38:04] bo. All right. I'll just say be a family. Lc etal
[38:08] to operate a shopping center in the c one zoning district on south street.
[38:14] but yeah, this was interesting. ,
[38:18] I keep it by saying it's fairly simple, but, um, this shopping center
[38:22] was constructed in the sixties, early seventies when
[38:26] it opened seventies. And that predates the definition of shopping center
[38:31] in our ordinance. So we traced it back to, it looks like the late nineties,
[38:35] 19 98, 19 99 is when shopping center appeared in the zoning ordinance.
[38:41] from that point, this was a, you know, legally non-conforming
[38:45] use. There have been additions, alterations, expansions of this
[38:49] shopping center, at which point in time it should have gone through the special
[38:53] use permit process to bring into compliance. And it did not.
[38:57] so at this point in time, this is to bring this shopping center that's
[39:02] already in use into compliance. What, what, what predicated
[39:06] this tonight? I mean, I'm just curious, did they want to expand something
[39:10] again and then we were like, wait, hold on. Or was it something that you just
[39:14] had known it was out of compliance and so the, I'm
[39:19] just wondering what made them, the tenants reached out. So, um,
[39:23] the, I guess the property owner, that family trust,
[39:28] they're looking at potentially down the line, selling the
[39:32] property to a new management company, something like that. So if that happens,
[39:37] right, they want clean title. Clear title. Gotcha. Uh, that makes sense.
[39:41] I just was, I just thought it was really odd. Like what, what made us revisit
[39:45] it right now? Since it's been there since the seventies. It's probably getting vdo
[39:50] a print attention. 'cause of the vdot thing. Yeah. Yeah, that was, that's
[39:54] what I was wondering too, like was there something block, okay, um, I have a
[39:58] question on this too about language or, well, somewhere,
[40:02] I can't put my hand on it right now. Right? So we couldn't do outdoor, oh there
[40:06] it is. Um, outdoor activities. No, no it's
[40:10] not on this page. Uh, somewhere it
[40:14] lists like what the activities are that you can do. And it said number one,
[40:19] this is straight from our code. So recording parking spaces, spaces
[40:24] show or may obstructed and reserved solely for parking purposes. Whether use
[40:28] including storage, loading or outdoor activity shall be permitted within the designated parking
[40:32] areas. So when we have some, well, okay, I guess you can argue when
[40:36] we have the, you know, thanksgiving bus collecting the
[40:40] food, I guess it scouts scout the boy scout. Well they're on the grass.
[40:44] no, no. They have, they usually have something set up there too where they collect the
[40:48] money, the shredding, the shredding truck. I mean there's all kinds
[40:53] of out outdoor activities and like what
[40:57] were we trying to like avoid what was, what was happening there? We doing
[41:01] that because we do outdoor activities on time there. Bring the bell. Are
[41:05] we trying to, are we trying to get, I mean, what were we trying to
[41:09] say? We, we didn't want to have, 'cause we have cloud work activities.
[41:15] I don't know that it's, we said it now. I think what she's saying is it's
[41:19] in the code. It's in the code and it's just like what george said, this might be
[41:23] one of those areas that when we rewrite it, we take that
[41:28] language out, we address it. But you know, we have people that come with neat
[41:32] trucks that really shouldn't be just selling their,
[41:37] there used to be a thing set up there where you could drop off shoes and clothing. Like one
[41:41] of those, like what I'm talking about. And long before
[41:47] you were here and you were born, you were here, they had a photo
[41:51] thing there. Remember that little tiny photo thing through mr. Po? Do you remember that? And
[41:55] you'd pull up and you'd hand over your film and then you come back a few days later and,
[42:01] and that was literally in the middle of it. Like amber's laughing. She never heard of that.
[42:05] she said before you were born. I know it was before she was born because I wanna
[42:09] say I was in high school and you could do that. So, and loading. I mean how can we
[42:13] have not have loading there? We've gotta have, you can't use the parking
[42:17] store so you can't do it out where everybody's parking. You've got pedestrians going.
[42:22] that is what the back of the shopping center is for, is for your loading areas. So
[42:26] we have designated zones for that. We're not talking about
[42:31] rule king putting their farm implements and all that stuff. No, that's exempt
[42:35] under our code. Okay. That's the next another section of zoning. Well I was afraid that was maybe
[42:40] what, so at this point in time they've submitted their, the
[42:44] striping plan, they just had the parking lot retried,
[42:48] I think it was like in december. Mm-hmm . Um, they
[42:52] didn't stripe the rear of the facility. They have adequate parking
[42:57] per this plan. Staff wasn't going to make them because they have
[43:01] adequate parking. Do any additional,
[43:07] the back's getting crowded back there. 'cause I think of martin's, I think
[43:12] martin's is doing like renovations and I don't know if they've taken stuff out
[43:16] and they have all these like tractor trailer, like the containers back there that
[43:20] weren't there before. Yeah, in the back. Yeah. Um, if you, you're
[43:25] coming down the side like, um, if you pull into the martin's closest to
[43:29] the keller building and you go up through there and go round back, I just know,
[43:33] 'cause I take stuff back to the hospice drop off and, and it's like, boy that got
[43:37] narrow real quick. But I imagine once the renovations are done at martin's that that
[43:41] will open. Yeah. But
[43:45] so the other thing was the quest, the sign thing. Can you
[43:49] explain that? So the billboard and off premises signs, which apparently this
[43:53] one has been there a very long time are not permitted in our code. So the applicant,
[43:58] since the planning commission meeting has reached out to the property owner
[44:02] and staff and said that they have an annual lease that renews june 1st
[44:06] of every year. So they're negotiating that with the property owners. Then
[44:11] this will be removed prior to june 1st. They
[44:15] will, regardless of how this goes. Wow. I thought that
[44:19] that had to be in violation. I mean all of 'em in town were taken down
[44:23] years ago. Yep. That's the only one that really is left. And I think they were permitted
[44:27] like one change or like they had a grace period, but
[44:32] at some point it's just kept going. People move on and you'll lose track of it
[44:36] and then it's another one of those enforced but not are they
[44:40] okay with that there? I mean they know that that's gonna come down. That's the only one
[44:44] though. That's the one that we know. No, no, no. I'm talking about the other conditions.
[44:48] there was some something else. Other condition was just that they comply with our parking standards essentially.
[44:53] oh, not that big sign. That's the one I thought it was. I thought
[44:57] look at was this, I was like, I thought
[45:01] got those signs. I thought that that's permitted. No, it's that, that giant
[45:05] air serve sign on mountain road right down
[45:09] all the frontage up to re mount. Right. So off premises sign. So this ground
[45:14] mount sign is telling you what is on the premises, what es are there.
[45:18] the other one is just air serve is not located in that shopping center. Right.
[45:22] I gotcha. And they couldn't like fitness evolution couldn't put it
[45:26] up there either. Right? The billboard on that billboard because even, even though it's a business in
[45:30] there. All right counsel, you're still
[45:35] utilizing the, the, the, the
[45:39] east side directly across the building
[45:43] as there garden center I guess? Yes. This is still the garden
[45:48] center area and I think that there's farm products further back
[45:52] and into the rear of it. That is not an
[45:56] issue. Mm-hmm. Okay. Counsel,
[46:00] are you all feel comfortable enough to put this
[46:05] on the february 23rd regular meeting with the
[46:09] public hearing or do you have more questions to
[46:13] postpone for the law? I go forward. I'm good. Is everybody good? I'm good. Yeah. Okay.
[46:18] public hearing for that. Alright, thank you.
[46:22] and then item 2d is a request to vacate a portion of the unimproved
[46:27] low lane between braxton road and lot 27 a. Mr.
[46:31] pe this is you. So there's no picture of that up here. We don't have any pictures of
[46:35] that. I don't, don't have a picture. It's in your packet. I, that's got, I got lots of questions on
[46:39] this. Just, just curious. I'm, I just, I I think we
[46:43] all became curious of this one, uh, as it came up. It was not something,
[46:48] um, I think it came to planning first. Uh, you know,
[46:52] the applicant had this lot that what was assumed to be landlocked
[46:56] until they discovered low lane next to the, the
[47:00] lane connects singular to this property essentially.
[47:05] um, so they've requested that low lane
[47:09] be vacated. Uh, staff comments are provided.
[47:13] they did, uh, in the survey attached,
[47:18] uh, provided adequate, um, 20 foot sanitary sewer
[47:23] easement. The storm sewer easement is 20
[47:27] foot in their property and in the right of way until it
[47:31] meanders off of low lane. So they have
[47:36] illustrated that they would dedicate those easements otherwise,
[47:41] uh, I think counsel was, or counsel, I apologize. The staff was
[47:45] okay with it. Essentially, you know, if we were develop low lane,
[47:50] we would be developing a driveway to a parcel essentially.
[47:54] but is this over here then? So, so it's
[47:58] right here, right? Correct. Okay. But if you come down braxton road,
[48:02] so it would literally be, it's just that one little
[48:06] slip that's but what's this over here then? That, that's a gis
[48:11] it's if you look the color there is like the roads that
[48:15] gray, that's actually nothing. If you look at the picture to the left,
[48:19] you'll see that low lane is on the other side of racks then. Right. It's
[48:23] just grass or sewer line runs through. So, so we own
[48:28] this, we own that. They own this.
[48:32] they own the property. Yeah. Mm-hmm . That is just amazing. So, and
[48:36] this, uh, I I, they got it through an auction. They got it through a
[48:40] tax auction from the county. So the, the
[48:45] property that it's immediately behind, this was a piece of their property
[48:49] originally. They subdivided it off in the seventies and then something
[48:53] happened. But they didn't pay taxes on that parcel, that third
[48:57] launch, um, as far as 10 11 was auctioned off
[49:01] and he purchased it. But he can't construct a dwelling unit on it without
[49:07] building there a public road. Yeah. So,
[49:11] you know, I grew, well you wouldn't know that. So I grew up on mine street. Right. That's
[49:15] why I'm, I mean I I honestly, I'll have to get
[49:19] somebody to take me out there. I I, the reason why I'm saying that is is that that
[49:24] 10 11, right? Right. Because ram's living 9 25, 10 11,
[49:30] um, I'm assuming is um,
[49:34] I mean I know who owned it and that that particular 10 11
[49:38] for years grew an entire garden in their front yard and
[49:43] it fed their, it was the vegetables that they used at their restaurant
[49:47] here in town. But it literally drops off like,
[49:51] I mean drops off behind it and it drops off and goes down.
[49:55] right. And so I guess what's behind 10 11
[50:00] is that drop off. I, there is no way a house could be
[50:04] put there. I cannot even, I mean it 'cause it goes like this.
[50:08] it it, yeah. Anyway, so who so challenge
[50:13] what? It's a challenge. Yeah. I would say frank, solid bill 10
[50:17] 11 does, um, but does it ends there at that property? Does
[50:21] our line continue? That is your line. Yeah. Mm-hmm .
[50:26] so there's, we have a right of way behind these other houses.
[50:31] so also what may make it more difficult, you can't build on our
[50:36] right of way or sewer. I geographically I'm, yeah, I'd
[50:40] have to go to see it. So if you notice in the survey, so the sewer
[50:44] line, the existing 20 foot storm sewer easement yep. It has a
[50:48] deed book reference. And that's because it's going through the parcels. Right.
[50:52] once it exits the parcels, it then entered low lane, which we already own. Right?
[50:56] so there's no easement. It's in our property. So that's why they would be dedicating a
[51:00] proposed sewer line easement to if we were to vacate.
[51:05] and does the owner realize the approximate
[51:09] cost again, with our new method for calculating this,
[51:13] we haven't shared anything at this point until we've got this, this is to advertise for the public
[51:17] hearing. After this is initiated, we would share all the
[51:22] information. So the idea is that they
[51:26] would want, that, they would like for the town to vacate that.
[51:30] and then obviously except right, they wanna be able to purchase it so that they
[51:34] can access that lump of land right. Between between 10 11 and 2 27
[51:39] polk. Right. That's the idea. So just outta curiosity,
[51:44] so once we vacated it, that would be it's all
[51:48] on them, right? Right. They would so it wouldn't even be a private street.
[51:53] it wouldn't be low lane anymore. Driveway. Driveway. So they'd be responsible for
[51:57] that. So this little green patch right there,
[52:01] who owns that? That was, it's to the, uh, mr.
[52:05] ms. Kane right down the corner. Well then why is that black line there
[52:10] in they here too? I mean I, I really have been looking at these pictures because
[52:14] they, it is like two parcels. They have like a small little section.
[52:18] it is best to look at the survey. You can see that, um,
[52:22] it has the text map eight a and they also own lot nine
[52:26] unknown on the little people. Yeah. And that, and that's what I was gonna say.
[52:30] like that's not, that's my question because the same people have lived at 2 29
[52:35] pretty much my whole life. Or at least since I moved in the neighborhood. So I,
[52:39] that's why I thought that was I when it said owner unknown, 'cause I'm pretty sure they're
[52:44] the only owner that's ever owned it. Um,
[52:48] the boy and the survey says proposed wanda boy,
[52:53] west richard br drain, easement drain.
[52:58] yeah. There's an existing storm drain. There are the little gray things. What
[53:02] that is that what the little gray things are? Little square.
[53:07] the little gray things. They're the houses. They're the structures like within the yellow
[53:11] and the green. Oh, the little gray ones or sheds? Yeah. Oh,
[53:15] those are, it's like I said, it's the gis it's not
[53:19] always perfect. You can't use it as, but if you look at the aerial image
[53:23] to the left of it, you can can see there's a little shed back there. Yeah. So,
[53:28] so whoever owns 2 31 polk and whoever
[53:32] owns 2 29 polk. Right. You're I'm just asking. So
[53:36] the patch behind the pink line, right? Mm-hmm
[53:40] . They, they own whatever is butted up to that. We don't own that. We don't
[53:44] own any of it. I mean I, it says that they own it, but we don't. I thought I know
[53:49] it. We don't own it. The smaller of the two says owner unknown. Mm-hmm
[53:53] . Behind lot alone. And there's a wire fence
[53:57] along.
[54:06] my concern is we go too far down the rabbit hole and we say it's gonna cost
[54:11] 8,000 or $10,000. Oh, I don't want to do that. And
[54:15] we've spent time and effort. I think this is, if you were,
[54:20] we may, they've applied for the application. You have to go to the
[54:24] public hearing. Gosh, yeah. It's, I, once they've
[54:28] submitted the application, that's the, so where we're
[54:32] going to get to that first public hearing and the applicant, the applicant
[54:37] owns that package. Does the applicant own 10 11? No.
[54:41] no, they just owned 20, they just owned that empty
[54:45] blob there. Lot 27 a one on me. Show that. Right. Okay. Okay.
[54:49] sorry. I don't, I don't see the benefit. Talented.
[54:54] I own, own it. I mean, I mean
[54:58] I don't think, I think it's alan.
[55:04] yeah. As long as I I'm just saying viewers in this case because of the, a
[55:08] bloody properties so unknown owner right here, you know
[55:12] lauren lot 27 a one. I
[55:16] mean little wayne, you believe that it's, I guess it's large enough to
[55:20] maybe a spot where somebody, well my kids play here, you know, or gonna oh
[55:24] that's, you would think that, but not really because I'm telling you
[55:29] it's out of a yeah. I I just don't have the concept. A square
[55:33] foot, I mean the house siting process
[55:37] and the ation. We'll go through our office, we'll review that to make sure it's appropriate.
[55:42] I mean, I walk back here, obviously
[55:47] dropped off. I know who owned originally two king.
[55:56] tell him with the slopes
[56:00] and stuff. Go to london there and get some properties. Get some . Alright, so the question is
[56:04] that, that it sounds like from what you said, regardless at this point it's
[56:09] has because they've applied, we have to go to the public hearing and then we'll hear
[56:13] what the public has to say and right. That's the idea.
[56:17] I don't get public hearing. I mean I personally think that we would get between
[56:22] now and then. Okay. So if everybody's okay with this, this could be a public hearing on
[56:26] february 23rd. And that's where you, similar to today, you have
[56:30] option to deny point viewers or to adopt an ordinance?
[56:34] well, if nobody from the public shows up to complaint, maybe like, like bruce, maybe it
[56:38] is a slam dunk. You know, I don't know. I mean it's just saying you have a sign out in
[56:43] lower lane or whatever it's called the public hearing. We
[56:47] haven't ever, you're letting us know tonight. Yeah. They
[56:51] won't have it for, but they go to public hearing. I thought, I
[56:55] thought you guys put it up when you had a public hearing. We don't have a public hearing for
[56:59] this. This, this is not land use. Not land use. Okay. We're the only ones
[57:03] decide to add on the straight moment. Okay.
[57:09] yep. Okay. Item am three as unfinished business. A request
[57:13] to reinstate two readings for public hearings. I certainly did enjoy going
[57:17] back and reading the minutes and stuff like that. 'cause it was like a blast from the past.
[57:22] I can remember all of those discussions. Also, you could see where,
[57:26] um, where some of the, you know, um,
[57:32] historical changes. Well that, that and that. And who
[57:36] was in fa more, you know, I, I mean there, there
[57:40] I will say one thing you could tell for read in a minutes, there was some objections to it for
[57:44] concerns. But it's just one of those things. 'cause I admit
[57:49] I voted for it. But I look back and, you know, you live and learn sometimes you
[57:53] do these things and you think unintended consequences sometimes.
[57:57] but anyway, so thoughts on this.
[58:01] so don't we have, it says joe petty beside of it, but it's not you. I don't know why
[58:05] it says you don't. We have the opportunity to keep the public hearing
[58:10] open for the next mark. And we have a case by case
[58:14] basis if we, we can't make up our minds or something, we just leave the public
[58:18] hearing open and we take it up at the next meeting. Yep. If that's what
[58:22] member makes, then we're gonna do two readings on everything. So it's
[58:26] two months. It's longer. I'm just thinking,
[58:30] do we, do we need that when we could leave,
[58:35] leave it , but it would have
[58:39] to be a vote to, a council member would have
[58:43] to make the motion to leave. Well, not even, it's not
[58:47] even making a motion. It's a, some kind of something we squeeze in there at the end.
[58:51] I can't close the public hearing. We have to leave the public hearing.
[58:55] somebody on council has to say, once the public's done talking
[59:00] that they wanna leave the public hearing open and they have to name the dates. Right.
[59:04] that's, that's how we've done it in the past. Right. It have to a date certain. Yeah. Yep.
[59:08] and doesn't it have to have a majority vote for that? It really should be the next
[59:12] regular meeting. Right. But doesn't, it doesn't, there have to be a
[59:16] majority people, so you have to make sure that every, the majority
[59:21] of counsel agrees that it needs to have a second night
[59:25] to contemplate it. I guess basically a second in the case. You're
[59:29] presenting right now a second opportunity for the public to come right.
[59:33] and express their views. Right. I'm all for having
[59:38] two, I mean, I don't mind having two public readings and two public input
[59:42] sessions, but the part that I raises my eyebrow
[59:46] is having the two, you know, the not the first non banding vote and then the second
[59:51] vote for it. I don't, I think that throws a lot of confusion out. I mean, if I'm a, if
[59:55] I'm an applicant coming in here and, you know, and if I get a, a, an affirmative vote,
[59:59] even though it might be do non-binding the first time and then I get
[1:00:03] another hearing and then all of a sudden it's a no, and I'm, it's, to me, it just,
[1:00:09] again, I, I having one vote, I, I fine, but I,
[1:00:13] I, I don't like the idea of having two separate votes, even though one might be non-binding.
[1:00:17] to me, it just adds confusion. I mean, not just to the public. I think it adds confusion
[1:00:21] to the applicants as well. It's how the town of front royals governing body
[1:00:25] operated its entire existence up until three years ago. So,
[1:00:30] um, with that being said, it's not something that I proposed because we can't make
[1:00:34] up our mind at a meeting and need to leave it open. I proposed it because a lot
[1:00:38] of constituents asked for me to ensure that I fought to bring this back.
[1:00:43] because what happens is we learn brand new information.
[1:00:48] tina's handed pamphlets of papers and pictures and letters and
[1:00:52] petitions, and they're passed down the diocese. Well, I'm supposed to be pretending to
[1:00:56] listen to this speaker, but I also have to read this entire three page article
[1:01:00] before they're done speaking, and then we have to go to make a decision. Or there
[1:01:04] are people who don't know about the public hearing until the press writes
[1:01:08] about it from a meeting, and then they're like, well, I wish I would've known that.
[1:01:13] so I could have been a part of that. I've heard that too, but I've not heard people say two votes. So
[1:01:17] how tina how many years did we do that? I, I know you said the
[1:01:21] year you said it was, it was before 1993. So since before, so we
[1:01:25] did two readings since before 1993. This is the way the government had always operated. It
[1:01:29] was changed because there were council members who didn't want to have
[1:01:34] as many council meetings. That is the entire reason it was changed,
[1:01:39] was it not? So we didn't have to meet as often. Well, I think,
[1:01:43] I think, I don't want to, I don't want to summarize things, but you can read the
[1:01:47] minutes becky and take from it what you, to your point,
[1:01:51] new information comes to us. Yeah. We leave them, you know, in light
[1:01:56] of new information tonight. We need more time
[1:02:00] to do that, and we leave the meeting open. I mean, I, it's political then, because
[1:02:04] if you've lobbied your votes beforehand, which happens on this council in council's
[1:02:09] previous, you call people and say, what do you think about tonight? How are you gonna vote? I know I'm gonna vote. And then
[1:02:13] you hear all this new information. So you've already decided you don't wanna leave it
[1:02:17] open at that point. It takes the politics out of it. It is the
[1:02:21] standard practice for this governing body to hear the information, process
[1:02:25] the information, and then take decisive action on it. It can't be
[1:02:29] something that I have to have enough lobbied votes to keep it open.
[1:02:33] that becomes very political. I, I agree again, but
[1:02:38] I have not heard anybody say like the voting part of it. I personally,
[1:02:42] I mean, I heard, I've heard more people say that they would love to have two public hearings,
[1:02:46] but I don't, that's how the two public hearings always worked. They always had a vote. You had
[1:02:50] to vote most times. Always. Don't they? It's one public hearing. One
[1:02:54] public hearing. One public hearing. Yeah. The, the vote happens, the two readings
[1:02:58] of it. Mm-hmm. I think the, I the school does it this way. What it happens
[1:03:03] at the second reading then, if you're not having the public hearing for warren input or public
[1:03:07] comments come before it mm-hmm . Okay. I, I don't know.
[1:03:11] yeah. The school board does do two readings. Well, yeah, I
[1:03:16] two votes though. Hold on. Actually no,
[1:03:22] no. If the second reading I'm talking about, you all said public comments would
[1:03:26] come before it actually, no. Right, tina? Because
[1:03:30] if there was a, it would be a business item at the second reading, so we would get, okay.
[1:03:34] I didn't, that, that was one of the reasons why too, we changed the order of
[1:03:39] business, not this group, but before was because it, public comments used to be
[1:03:43] to get less, like the first thing and the second thing. Okay. I'm sorry. Yeah, that's correct.
[1:03:47] and I, and I do understand, and, and councilman would I, I feel like
[1:03:51] maybe that was the meeting you weren't here for when we discussed this maybe, but,
[1:03:56] um, I, you know, the tricky part is, is that there are some things
[1:04:01] that really are, I won't say simple,
[1:04:05] but they're, they're easier that you're like, really? It doesn't, it wouldn't need
[1:04:09] a second reading. As I said, ms pre and I, we've had this conversation how
[1:04:13] there are items that really don't need a second reading that,
[1:04:17] you know, but, but mr. Son said there's no way for us to, to
[1:04:22] like basically put things on the agenda that says this thing needs two
[1:04:26] readings. This thing needs one reading or whatever. We have to do it uniform one way
[1:04:30] or the other. Um, but then there are other items where,
[1:04:35] you know, it is a lot. I mean, I, I, I will, you
[1:04:39] know, there have been times where I felt like there was a lot of information
[1:04:43] that was shared and,
[1:04:48] and, and the vote was gonna be taken. And that's true. You have to be decide.
[1:04:52] and I would, I understand what you're saying about we can leave the public hearing open. That's true. That's
[1:04:56] absolutely true. However, you can only do that
[1:05:00] if the majority of the people on the council agree with you to leave it open.
[1:05:05] do you know what I mean? So, for example, you know,
[1:05:10] two people were like, oh my gosh, that was a, in their head, there was a, that
[1:05:14] was a lot of new information, you know, know, I don't think I'm really ready to make a
[1:05:18] decision yet. But the other four people are like, I'm ready to make a decision. So they don't wanna
[1:05:22] leave the public hearing open, then you gotta make it right, mr. Sauna.
[1:05:27] I mean, that's, that's the down motion requires a motion to pass. Yeah. That's the downfall
[1:05:31] of, so the other thing is, if I may mm-hmm . So there's leaving the
[1:05:35] o uh, public hearing open in the case of well,
[1:05:39] leaving it open, uh, closing it and postponing
[1:05:43] action. Uh, these are under robert's rules, right.
[1:05:48] uh, and there's also reconsideration.
[1:05:52] now that's very restricted.
[1:05:56] it has to be at the next meeting. You can't, yeah. It also has
[1:06:00] to be somebody that voted against it in the first
[1:06:04] place. They're the only people that can bring it up for a reconsideration. Correct?
[1:06:08] yeah. Correct. I don't know that, I don't know that I've ever been. So those are addressed in robert's
[1:06:12] rules. But each of those, in the case of reconsideration,
[1:06:17] you have to have a majority vote just to put it
[1:06:21] back on the table. Right. And then discuss it, and then another
[1:06:25] vote if you're gonna, well, another, so it's two votes for
[1:06:29] a reconsideration. First one is to actually agree to reconsider,
[1:06:35] and the second vote is on the merits. So
[1:06:39] leaving public hearing open, uh, or
[1:06:43] closing it and postponing action to another date, certain
[1:06:47] or reconsideration. Those are all addressed in robert's rules.
[1:06:52] there's no way to get public input on this part. This I, I'm just, as
[1:06:57] we're all sitting here talking about it, there's no way to get public input
[1:07:01] on this unless we put it on an agenda rate. We, this I it
[1:07:05] requires an ordinance for yeah. But we could bring it to the february 23rd meeting
[1:07:09] under public comments. Under public hearing rather,
[1:07:13] and say, receive public input for considering two readings.
[1:07:17] it requires a public hearing for you to do this. 'cause we have to amend your orders amending the
[1:07:21] . But could we receive public input? Like we've done, we did that.
[1:07:25] we did that one other time. I think it was an alley thing. There was a time where we said,
[1:07:30] let's receive public input, but we didn't take action on it because this was
[1:07:34] the most asked thing the last time I ran, was to bring back two readings. But
[1:07:38] see, I never heard of anybody asking for two different votes. That's how it always has been.
[1:07:42] read the minutes. We've always voted twice when there were two readings. You have to take action.
[1:07:48] but the school board doesn vote, vote the way the town is. You're
[1:07:53] not voting twice, only two votes. You're voting to close the public hearing. You're
[1:07:57] not voting, approve or deny. It sounds like,
[1:08:01] of all sounds like comment. It doesn't sound like we're ready. So
[1:08:05] I've been on council two years. Can you gimme some examples of why we
[1:08:10] needed this? Well,
[1:08:14] yeah, I was gonna say, I would love to, amber was the one that brought it up at the last meeting.
[1:08:18] I mean, I brought it up before, obviously I said that, but when she brought it up
[1:08:22] this time was like, just some time, for example,
[1:08:27] some public hearings where while we're at the public
[1:08:31] hearing, I'll give you an example of one that was before any of y'all were here.
[1:08:36] we came to a meeting and we thought it was, I thought, this is an easy issue.
[1:08:40] this isn't big deal. I got to the meeting, there was like 21 people in the back of the
[1:08:44] room, and I was like, what are all these people here for? And it was,
[1:08:48] um, about, about zoning this piece of land. Um,
[1:08:53] and one of the ladies stood up and said, there's actually a cemetery
[1:08:57] back there. And anyway, long story short,
[1:09:02] um, uh, there was no time to,
[1:09:06] to collab. Is that, is that true? Is
[1:09:10] it not true? We're not allowed to have discussion on the ballot. Yeah. It wasn't like that. And so the
[1:09:14] public brought information, staff didn't seem to know anything about it
[1:09:18] or whatever, and, and the vote was taken. Take example, leaving the meeting. Yeah, yeah,
[1:09:22] yeah. It should have been. But, but people weren't doing that
[1:09:27] much. And the only way to have left that open would've
[1:09:31] been if the majority of the council members said,
[1:09:36] yeah, I agree. We should hear it. And I don't know that,
[1:09:40] I don't know that it's an item that you can,
[1:09:44] um, what's the word I'm looking for? Rally to be able
[1:09:49] to be like, counsel, I think we should leave this public hearing open. We've never done it that
[1:09:53] way. It's been more like somebody just makes the, makes the suggestion.
[1:09:57] I think we should leave the public hearing open. And there isn't like a motion and a
[1:10:01] discussion. Correct. Mr. Sonnet, when somebody says, let's leave
[1:10:05] the public hearing open. It's not like, then it moves into a discussion
[1:10:10] where we all discuss why we should think we should leave it open. It's just a
[1:10:14] yay or a nay parliamentary. That's a nuance I'd have to look at. But I think
[1:10:18] I'm just saying we haven't the, that, that might be a nuance in robert's rules. But I think
[1:10:22] if you still have a discussion on the motion, right? Have motion, have a
[1:10:26] discussion on the motion. But some motions you don't have discussion procedure prohibits
[1:10:30] discussion amongst the members of this council. If the people on this council
[1:10:34] were to read robert's rules of order and understand it, we are not allowed
[1:10:39] to engage in back and forth dialect. The person who makes the motion gets the first
[1:10:44] to speak to the motion and add discussion. Each person gets to add discussion.
[1:10:48] there should not be two times speaking, there should be no back and forth. There's no rebuttals
[1:10:52] in robert's rules of order. It's very uncomfortable. But this is the way the government was intended
[1:10:56] to operate. Also, as I'm looking back through here, there's been multiple,
[1:11:01] multiple public hearings since october, 2025 until february 2nd, 2025
[1:11:07] that we've discussed. We had six public hearings tonight. Not a single
[1:11:11] speaker showed up to a single one of those. They wake up tomorrow morning
[1:11:15] and they see on the royal examiner in the northern virginia daily, the six public hearings
[1:11:19] that had not a single speaker that were all passed unanimously. And they're like,
[1:11:23] well, I wish I would've known because the weather, the ice, whatever the case may
[1:11:28] have been, they didn't come to a work session at the town hall. That's done deal.
[1:11:32] that's, we changed town code tonight. It's done deal . So I'm
[1:11:36] just saying, I'm sorry that you guys haven't gotten that same feedback. I know, and
[1:11:40] I think you have experienced it as well. There is a large majority of
[1:11:44] this community who rallied and asked me, if you're reelected,
[1:11:48] will you be a proponent for two public hearings? And the name and sake of transparency
[1:11:53] in the front royal government?
[1:11:57] how can you, I don't understand how you can process that information while someone's
[1:12:02] standing at a podium speaking to you and say, you truly gave it a thought.
[1:12:06] or if they said, ride by and look at x, y, z this time of day,
[1:12:10] now I'm gonna make my decision, or I'm gonna leave the public hearing open and hope
[1:12:14] that four other people are just as confused or passionate about the issue as me.
[1:12:19] that's where it becomes political because your friend applies for an alley vacation. It
[1:12:23] seems like a slam dunk. Nobody shows up and opposes it. You vacate this
[1:12:27] alley and then you look back and somebody tried to leave it open and you were like, well, I knew enough about the
[1:12:31] matter, but why can't we just do it like the school board, just do
[1:12:36] two readings and then and a vote. I mean, wouldn't that serve the same?
[1:12:40] I mean, I I'm all for it too. I'm just saying, iiii
[1:12:45] kind hear what you're, it's confusing if they don't have to take a vote after the first
[1:12:49] reading and a vote after the second reading. Why? That's all I, that's all I'm saying.
[1:12:53] I mean, why, why? I mean, that's, that's, do we, go ahead. Well, I, I just have one comment, and
[1:12:58] this is not from one or the other, but the one question I would say is also
[1:13:02] thinking that we have a work session ahead of time and, you
[1:13:06] know, that's an opportunity for, but it also creates a little confusion
[1:13:10] because there are times where we don't allow the public or even the applicant
[1:13:15] to speak at that time. So, you know, it's just staff talking
[1:13:19] to, so if, if it were to go this route of having, you
[1:13:23] know, a public hearing and then a later vote, you know,
[1:13:27] I would like to look at that process as well as how much is given, how much
[1:13:31] information is given at the work session where the public doesn't
[1:13:36] have the opportunity. 'cause then we give it, and then we're hearing it sometimes for the first
[1:13:40] time as well at the public hearing that was put on the spot.
[1:13:44] so it's, so it's, you know, land use goes through planning commission. We have
[1:13:48] a little bit more background, but then it's almost as if we're talking about
[1:13:52] it a few times before the public gets that chance. I'd like to think about
[1:13:56] how the work session element plays into then the two readings.
[1:14:00] because I do think the meetings, you had two regular meetings when you had
[1:14:04] the two, and now we have two work sessions that are regular. But the thing about a reading is,
[1:14:10] I, I don't think, because I did serve at the time before,
[1:14:15] um, we still had the, we still had the presentation
[1:14:19] by staff at the work session. The, the
[1:14:24] readings were, and the opportunity at the public comment
[1:14:28] or whatever. Um, but, but
[1:14:32] we didn't go into it blind. Like we at least had knowledge about what the,
[1:14:36] what the issue was, and then the public spoke on it.
[1:14:40] um, so I, I don't, I don't know, I don't know that
[1:14:44] I would wanna do away with discussing it at the work session first, or at least hearing
[1:14:48] about it on the work session. And that's something I like, you know, is about how, how
[1:14:52] that is displayed and how it's discussed. And if it's like, like the item earlier,
[1:14:58] if it's more about we need to talk about this more, we'll kick it to another work session or otherwise
[1:15:02] the application is complete, everything is here, we go to the public
[1:15:06] hearing and allow the public that opportunity. Um,
[1:15:10] and I'd just like to also figure out that process as well. Not,
[1:15:14] not to take away from the open discussion. It's just talking about
[1:15:18] it two or three times the public hearing. Usually by the time it goes to the public hearing, they have
[1:15:23] had the opportunity if they wanted to, if the work session right. But then
[1:15:27] also they, um, they hear what
[1:15:32] it is that's being like, not proposed, but what
[1:15:36] the options are. Because if you look at the agenda, it'll say on there, like
[1:15:40] this motion, sometimes the motions get changed, but at least they get an idea
[1:15:45] of it. Instead of, I, I don't, it doesn't sound like,
[1:15:49] it doesn't sound like we have enough answers to questions yet to, to
[1:15:53] move this to any particular direction. Um, we can bring
[1:15:57] it up again or, or, you know, I'm fine with letting it die. And me being the only
[1:16:02] one who was a proponent to reinstate amber, you're not to reinstate the way
[1:16:06] it was before I was speaking. I am looking to reinstate. I never
[1:16:10] asked for two votes. I asked to reestablish and reinstate the way the town of
[1:16:14] front royal governed. With that being said, I am fine that I am
[1:16:18] the minority in that. With that being said, put yourself in the
[1:16:22] public's position before you were elected to this council and think if you understood
[1:16:27] and fully could digress what a public hearing mattered
[1:16:31] or if you read about it, then you were like, man, I wish I would've known about that sooner.
[1:16:35] or if you were on vacation and you couldn't attend the public hearing and
[1:16:39] you were like, if only there was a second opportunity to have the public's matters be heard.
[1:16:44] I never said I wanted two votes. I said I wanted to reinstate the way the town of for royal governed
[1:16:48] when I sat here with scott lloyd, joe mcfadden, chris holloway, lori cockrell,
[1:16:52] and zach jackson. And that is the way in which it operated. I did
[1:16:56] you want, did you wanna offer something? Well, first of all, to
[1:17:00] mr. Wood's point, I haven't heard one complaint
[1:17:05] from anyone okay. Okay. About how things are rolling right
[1:17:09] now. Okay. I mean, I, I can't speak for anyone else
[1:17:14] on council here, but I haven't heard one complaint come
[1:17:18] from the firm about how lori and I both have.
[1:17:22] so I'm not a liar. So I I'm not, I'm not calling
[1:17:27] anyone liar. Okay. But, but I'm, I'm just saying I haven't heard
[1:17:31] a complaint, uh, to that point. The,
[1:17:35] the thing is, do do we
[1:17:40] as a whole get the information out
[1:17:44] to the public? I mean, I mean, do we really,
[1:17:50] I mean, are are signs, for example, for our,
[1:17:54] um, public hearing, public hearing, public hearing signs, they're
[1:17:59] minuscule. I mean, and they're very low. And
[1:18:03] if you know, you, you know, the gentleman talked
[1:18:08] about the small signs of the earlier
[1:18:12] today, but, uh, that, that's another point. Do,
[1:18:16] do we get the information out so that the public knows a lot of times
[1:18:20] the public, that's why they don't show up to meetings because they don't know.
[1:18:25] so, um, you know, that's an, I'm flipping the chart here, you
[1:18:30] know? Mm-hmm . Um, that's, I'm just throwing that out there.
[1:18:34] no, I gotcha. And the thing is, you can provide information, but you can't make people
[1:18:38] read it. Um, I understand newspapers or most
[1:18:43] people, they get everything from online. But I will say one thing
[1:18:47] about what you just said, every person on this council got the same email
[1:18:51] that I did. I'm trying to think which month it was. There was
[1:18:55] a lee, I know exactly who the lee, I remember her name, but it was something
[1:18:59] we voted on. It wasn't the a du, it was the something else.
[1:19:04] and she emailed a very long pointed email about
[1:19:08] that. We had voted on that. And that, you know, she was upset about it.
[1:19:13] um, and the thing was, in my head,
[1:19:17] I said, well, you could have come and spoke,
[1:19:22] but she didn't. Right. And so, so to me, those
[1:19:26] are the, those, those are the situations like a
[1:19:30] situation like that where other people that have said to me too, like that, that,
[1:19:35] that, you know, you wanted to get the most public input as you could or whatever.
[1:19:39] so that is a time when everybody in here got that same email. Again,
[1:19:44] it's not our fault that somebody didn't read the agenda
[1:19:48] and know what was on it, but I think it is true that
[1:19:53] sometimes people read the after the fact
[1:19:57] and, and then say, oh, like, I wish I'd
[1:20:01] known that. Now abutting property owners get, get letters about something happening.
[1:20:06] but like, for example, something that happened in my neighborhood years ago and it, I did,
[1:20:10] I wasn't the abutting property, but it sure impacted my street.
[1:20:15] and I, I wasn't paying attention and didn't know about it until it was all said
[1:20:19] and done. So anyway, josh, go ahead. You, you had something else to say and then we'll move on. Well, what I'm
[1:20:23] saying is, is that, you know, amber, you're not a minority. 'cause I said it too. I, I've
[1:20:27] said people ask me if I would be in favor of bringing back two readings, and I
[1:20:31] am. So for you to say that you're in a minority, okay, there must be three of us here. At least. I
[1:20:35] I, I'm getting, I don't think anybody's gang it up on you or anything like that. I, I don't think anything of,
[1:20:39] okay, well, all I'm saying is, is that, and you just agreed too,
[1:20:44] that you never asked for having two votes. And that's all I'm saying is that I'm for it.
[1:20:48] I just don't, I just don't, I just think having two votes is confusing. It's that simple. That's all
[1:20:52] those two votes we discussed that at the last george legal
[1:20:56] one vote, right? No, according, but you're not taking affirmative
[1:21:00] action on the action item at the first public hearing reading.
[1:21:05] if you guys wanna go back and watch our last work session so we can expedite this process. George
[1:21:09] gave legal advisement at that work session where we asked these same exact
[1:21:13] questions on why it was required that we took two votes. It wasn't two votes to approve
[1:21:18] or deny. It's to move it forward. Yes.
[1:21:22] yeah. Anyway, but I, but I do, but I do understand
[1:21:26] what you're saying. 'cause I know in the past with other governing bodies,
[1:21:31] it, if people flipped their vote, I'm not saying flip their vote,
[1:21:35] but that was the impression, tina, you know, is that the first night they
[1:21:39] heard the reading, they said, yeah, you learned information and then before the information, and then before the second
[1:21:43] one when they said no, people were trying to figure out, well, what changed their mind
[1:21:47] or whatever. So what is it, mr. Petty? Petty, I might
[1:21:51] say , not perry. Perry petty might called folks.
[1:21:56] she called him petty. What'd you say? No. Anyway,
[1:22:00] um, what does the county do? So it's
[1:22:04] been a while since I've been there, . Um, but how it would work is obviously,
[1:22:09] so what we would do with land use, um, is that the first meeting
[1:22:13] of the month, they would consent item, request for advertise
[1:22:18] all the items. And so they wouldn't even discuss them. However,
[1:22:22] if there was something of substance, they would pull it from consent to discuss it.
[1:22:26] and if they felt it would go to work session, they kicked to a work session. Otherwise
[1:22:30] they'd request to advertise. It's authorized. And then
[1:22:35] especially land use, like I said, it's already gone through planning commission. It's already had
[1:22:39] a public hearing. You know, it's, and if it's, hopefully
[1:22:43] planning commission has vetted it and they've work session them and discuss them.
[1:22:48] by the time it gets to, um, counselor of the board, they would then authorize
[1:22:52] the advertisement. They would go to the public hearing. If they,
[1:22:56] and then they had the options, they would hear the public hearing and they would either vote. And
[1:23:01] if you've watched a lot of the short term rentals, nobody shows up routine.
[1:23:05] the more comprehensive ones. They've either kicked them to planning commission, they
[1:23:09] have delayed them. And even, I believe it was the
[1:23:14] linden sheets, they reconsidered that brought it back and devoted the other way.
[1:23:18] right. I mean, they, but they authorized to advertise at the beginning, or at least when
[1:23:22] I was there. I can double check. And then the end of the month, it is that first meeting
[1:23:26] considered a meeting or a work session? It's a regular meeting. Okay. And
[1:23:30] I, I have to have, did you have to go to work session 12 or one?
[1:23:35] it is not, they, they will, they have in the past. So when I first started,
[1:23:39] we didn't have work sessions. It was just two meetings, and then they added
[1:23:43] the work sessions. Okay. And then they added more work sessions. Gotcha. But they,
[1:23:47] uh, they had a work session in between that they would discuss bigger
[1:23:51] items that they felt they needed to discuss. Okay. Larger rezonings
[1:23:56] or other land use that where they've gotten lots of emails or comments, but
[1:24:00] most of 'em, they were just . I don't wanna say routine,
[1:24:05] but all right. Well, I'm get it's unfinished business and I'm gonna
[1:24:09] move on. But I am gonna say this, I'm sure that people will
[1:24:13] see in the press now that we discussed this, and maybe people will get input, maybe
[1:24:17] other council members will get input. Yay, nay. And, and we can decide in the
[1:24:21] future if we wanna bring it up again. So, all right. The next item is number four,
[1:24:25] closed meeting. And I will entertain motion. I move the town council,
[1:24:30] convene a closed meeting pursuant to 2 2 7 1 2 3 7 2
[1:24:35] of the code of virginia for the following purpose. One, pursuant to section 2.2
[1:24:40] dash 37 11, a eight of the code of virginia consultation with legal counsel,
[1:24:45] employer retained by a public body regarding specific legal matters requiring
[1:24:49] the provision of legal advice by such counsel. More specifically, a, the insolvency
[1:24:53] and disposition of assets of the industrial development authority of the
[1:24:57] town of front royal, and the county of warren, virginia. And b, the amendment to voluntary
[1:25:01] settlement agreement between the county of warren, virginia and the town of front royal
[1:25:05] virginia regarding the compromise for pilot meals and lodging taxes entered into
[1:25:09] april 11th, 2008. Second admission, second roll
[1:25:14] call council wood. Yes. Ice call? Yes. Council.
[1:25:18] council. Yes. Council king brown. Yes. Counsel?
[1:25:23] yes. Anyone need a restroom? Right. Okay.
[1:25:28] if not.